Attorney General: And therefore these are matters which had
nothing to do with Bilfinger and which devolved upon you?
Accused: On this I can once again only repeat that it is
not mine. It is contrary to all usage, because matters
which I dealt with were dealt with properly and in due form,
not in this form, and as I have said, they had to be
initialled – even the directives. The IVB4 directives on
deportation matters are available, they are signed, and here
there is nothing at all; there are a few sheets appended to
a letter, and there are also the corrections by hand, which
would never have come from me.
Q. Perhaps you transmitted your proposals to IIA2, and then
IIA2 dealt further with the matter; Heydrich did, after all,
give you this assignment.
A. That would never have happened, because if, for example,
IVB4 had given directives to IIA2, IIA2 would not have been
allowed to amend them of its own initiative; also, IIA2
would have had to leave the reference to the source as it
was, and in addition, these are economic matters, I can see
here, cultural matters. It would, in fact, have been
perfectly imaginable that Bilfinger was given this by
Heydrich, and that Bilfinger had to write down key words,
just as I had to do in other matters…
Q. Yes, but there are absolutely no grounds for this
supposition you are putting forward here, while the task you
were given is based on a letter by Heydrich – that is true,
is it not?
A. Yes, I see this from this document here; but according to
practice… practice shows clearly that I did not draft
these directives and did not send them – that is quite
clear, beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Presiding Judge: Can you read the faint words above the word
Accused: In my copy it is very faint; I can only guess at
the last bit: “end”…
Presiding Judge: “End of December,” is it not?
Accused: It might be “end of December 1941”; it is
totally illegible in my copy.
Presiding Judge: All right.
Attorney General: So you want to invalidate this entire
document on the grounds that there is the odd minor
correction in it made by the typist of some Department or
Section whom you can suddenly identify – is that true?
Accused: Not just that, Mr. Attorney General. In
general, because of administrative indications, I would
put…for matters of proof, I would put it. Because if I
had, in fact, been responsible for this and had written it,
then the cover note would have had to be from me, the
directives would have had to be signed, and not just be
hanging in the air. And as for these corrections by hand, I
simply added these to the emphasis, on the correctness of my
statement about this…
Presiding Judge: This is part of the documents shown to you
in Bureau 06, is it not? How do you read the words at the
Accused: Certainly: “New Draft of End of December 1941.”
This tells me now…having read this, this tells me, Your
Honour, that this matter cannot have been dealt with after
the Wannsee Conference, although I thought it could be
otherwise, as explained by the Attorney General. This shows
me that this draft was dealt with by IIA2 before the Wannsee
Conference. This is proof – I would say formal proof – of
Attorney General: Do you know that the “Brown Folder”
contained directives in all spheres of life for the Eastern
Occupied Territories, including those for the Jews?
Accused: I learned this here. When I was asked what the
“Brown Folder” was, I did not know.
Q. Very well. Rosenberg sent these proposals or drafts to
Heydrich for his approval, and this probably passed through
the complete set of all of the competent authorities in the
Head Office for Reich Security, did it not?
A. I do not know, Mr. Attorney General, it is possible that
it got held up at IIA2, and that IIA2 was in overall charge
of dealing with the matter.
Q. On cultural matters?
A. It is indeed possible that IIA2 either received cultural
matters directly from Heydrich, or that it also had things
provided to it – if I can put it this way – by some form of
expose, just as I did. But IIA2 did not ask me for
this…otherwise it would have had…it would have been
signed. I had nothing to do with the East.
Q. Despite your being the Adviser on Jewish Affairs, and
although Heydrich wrote this?
A. I was the Adviser on Jewish Affairs in IV, in Department
IV, but there were also Advisers on Jewish Affairs in other
Q. Another Adviser on Jewish Affairs in IIA2?
A. Certainly. Neifeind and Dr. Bilfinger handled matters,
they appear at dozens of meetings.
Q. And they were not at Wannsee?
A. No, they were not at Wannsee.
Q. And you were?
A. Yes, I was at Wannsee.
Q. Very well, we shall leave it to the Court to decide what
sort of impression this makes.
You have read Friedel’s report, T/293, have you not?
A. Is that the Bialystok matter?
Q. Yes, Bialystok. Do you remember that Friedel states that
the order to liquidate the ghettos came directly from IVB4?
A. I do not remember that, but Bialystok was located within
the Reich, that is within the incorporated Eastern
Territories, as far as I know, and when it came to all the
incorporated Eastern Territories, Himmler issued the
deportation order, and IVB4, my Section, had to carry out
the work ordered for deportation according to its
Q. The deportation was to Auschwitz, was it not?
A. I do not know right now, but the station of destination
laid down in the order naturally was included accordingly in
Q. The Court would like you to identify the areas which were
incorporated into the Reich, with the various dates of
occupation. Can you do that?
A. I am not familiar in detail with this. Today, I have
long since forgotten about this. I simply know, I have …I
cannot see the map from here. Might I approach it, please?
Presiding Judge: [To the police officer] Very well, please
escort him over to the map.
Accused: As far as I can see on the map from here, the
newly incorporated Eastern Territories in the East are as
follows: Here is the border of the old Reich – this part was
incorporated, and also this part – and later Gdansk. These
– as far as I know – are all newly incorporated areas, where
the nationalization decree was implemented, I believe.
Q. And what about Bialystok – the Bialystok area?
A. Bialystok? From here I cannot see this on the map…I
believe it is here somewhere, but I cannot see it or make it
out on the map. If someone could show it to me on the
map…yes, that is Bialystok.
Attorney General: Initially, Bialystok was occupied by the
Soviet Union, according to the 1939 demarcation line; but
after Germany began the war against Russia, it was occupied
by the Reich. I have here two publications which show this
precisely, and which contain maps on the territorial changes
which occurred during the Second World War in Germany, in
the east, as well as in the west and the north. This book
might be very useful to the Court.
Presiding Judge: Has Dr. Servatius seen these publications?
Attorney General: No, but it is a publication by the
University of Tuebingen.
Dr. Servatius: I should just like to glance through them.
Presiding Judge: Certainly. I believe that this is the best
source for these matters.
Attorney General: I believe so, too.
Presiding Judge: These publications will be marked T/1426
and T/1427. So, to repeat: After the beginning of the war
against Russia, Bialystok was incorporated into the Reich.
Attorney General: Yes, Bialystok was annexed to Eastern
Prussia. I believe that the Court will find this here.
According to exhibit T/1278, it was only in May 1942 that
the Political Department in concentration camps was
transferred to the control of the Economic-Administrative
Head Office. Have you seen the document?
Presiding Judge: Yes, we have spoken about this. You have
already mentioned this document.
Attorney General: Yes. And it also says here that as far as
assignment and release of prisoners from concentration camps
are concerned, the responsibility remains in the hands of
the Head Office for Reich Security, so there is no change.
Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, with regard to the last two
volumes offered in evidence, I assume that only the
geographical parts of the books’ contents are intended as
evidence, because there is a great deal of general material
here about the Jewish Question, racial persecution – it is a
comprehensive work on issues of competence, and that should
not be submitted in evidence here, unless I am allowed the
opportunity to study these documents.
Attorney General: That is the situation, Your Honour. My
colleague, Dr. Robinson, who found and drew attention to
these two volumes, proposes using them solely with reference
to the geographical division of the occupied areas. The
Court is requested to consider these volumes solely from
this point of view.
Presiding Judge: This has been noted in the record.
Dr. Servatius: Yes, Your Honour, I have no objections to
Attorney General: As T/1278 shows, the transfer of control
over the concentration camps to the Political Department did
not lead to any changes in the powers over assignments to
the camps. The power over assignment remained exactly as it
Accused: Yes, that is what this decree says.
Q. You will admit that when in T/1389, document No. 1250,
Globocnik reports that Operation Reinhardt has been
concluded by the resettlement having been completed, that
means that all Jews have been sent to concentration camps.
A. That means that in the Generalgouvernement the
matter…the Jewish Question was over.
Q. “Erledigt und abgeschlossen” – “disposed of and closed” –
as it says here. Perhaps the Court would allow me, since I
have only one copy which I should like to use to ask a few
questions, to give the Accused another copy of this?
Presiding Judge: T/1389?
Attorney General: T/1389. This is the document I have
already mentioned. On the first page it says here, erledigt
und abgeschlossen – disposed of and closed. That means that
the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement was disposed
A. Yes, that is what the document says.
Q. And if you would now turn to page 5. Look at this,
please. It says there that on 3 November 1943 all workers
were sent to the labour camps.
A. On page 5?
Q. On page 5.
A. Oh yes, at the top.
Q. Line 6.
Presiding Judge: “Withdrawn from the labour camps” (Den
Attorney General: “Withdrawn from the labour camps.” Yes,
indeed – I apologize. We had testimony here that on 2-3
November 1943, the last inmates of the Majdanek Camp were
liquidated. That means then, as Globocnik reports here,
that at the beginning of November 1943, the extermination
camps were liquidated – were liquidated in the
Accused: Although I had nothing to do with that, I would
gather that from the document, as you have said, Mr.
Q. And on page 4 of this document it says that the remaining
camps have been transferred to the Economic-Administrative
Head Office as labour camps.
A. In fact, I did not find that on this page, but I did read
Q. On page 4: “On 22.10.43 SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl
advised that he had taken charge…” and so on. You will
agree, therefore, that until this date the extermination
camps were not under the command of the Economic-
Administrative Head Office, but under the Head Office for
A. I cannot agree with this, for two reasons: Firstly, I was
not responsible for this; secondly, I do not know who in the
Head Office for Reich Security is supposed to have been
responsible for this; and thirdly, on the other hand, I know
that the SS and Police Leader dealt with this, and the SS
and Police Leader is not the Head Office for Reich Security.
On the other hand, I do, however, know that Heydrich
personally did, to some extent, share this matter with
Globocnik. But no section in Department IV actually
participated in or dealt with that.
Q. How do you know that Heydrich personally took part in
this matter together with Globocnik?
A. For two reasons: Firstly, I gathered this – shall we say
– from the close relationship between Krueger…there is a
document here from which I gathered this…and Buehler; and
secondly, Heydrich did send me to Globocnik with the
letters; and thirdly, I know that Heydrich and Krueger had
direct negotiations on these matters. And lastly, I am
further strengthened in my opinion by the fact that
Globocnik had the matter transferred to him by Himmler, by
remembering the sentence which Heydrich said to me when he
sent me off the first time – that Globocnik was making the
preparations up there according to Himmler’s orders. From
these points I can deduce that with certainty.
Presiding Judge: Mr. Attorney General, we do of course
realize that this is an extremely important matter, but the
examination about this is now being dealt with a second
time, and this must come to an end.
Attorney General: Yes, Your Honour.
[To the Accused] Do you know the meaning of “Operation
Accused: Yes. This was Operation Reinhardt, named after Heydrich.