Attorney General: Was “Evakuierung” not used?
Accused: Yes, that was used, too; in the
Generalgouvernement it was called resettlement. Perhaps
there was a distinction here – evacuation from outside to
the Generalgouvernement, and inside the Generalgouvernement,
as such, because that was in fact a separate operation which
was run separately. In practice that may certainly not
always have been observed; it is possible that the terms got
mixed up. I should like to add this, by way of precaution.
Q. Did Mueller in any case ever issue an order relative to
“resettlement” operations within the Generalgouvernement?
A. Yes – I have seen a document here; according to this
file, Mueller had a telephone conversation with – I think –
Wolff, this concerned the exemption of workers at – I think
– an oil company. I believe that this is the only document
I found. This was signed by Mueller.
Q. I am not asking you which document you have seen. I am
asking you what you know about the operation, whether you
know anything about orders from Mueller relative to the
“resettlement” of Jews within the Generalgouvernement?
A. No, I know nothing about that.
Q. And the only thing that you know is the document you were
shown in your police examination – that is T/266, to which
you are referring, is it not? So would you please explain
to us whether Mueller was not actually empowered to issue
any instructions in the matter of the Final Solution of the
Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement? And if that was
the case, how could he issue such an order?
A. I cannot say anything precise about this, either, because
I myself was not familiar with all of Mueller’s powers in
Q. But it does say IVB4 here, does it not?
A. This is another typical example which corroborates my
statement that I had to carry out such matters in accordance
with orders, because I had no idea about any telephone
conversation between Mueller and SS Obergruppenfuehrer
Wolff. I received this instruction, and accordingly had to
draft this matter in accordance with instructions…that
does not mean that I knew to what extent Mueller could
intervene here through the Commander of the Security Police
in Cracow. But this document has in fact shown me that
Mueller did intervene, because here he did, even though in
reverse, exempt people, so possibly he could also somehow
issue orders for this to come into force the other way
round, but I do not know about this, because I did not deal
Q. So Mueller writes that he has arranged for the order to
be issued to the Commander of the Security Police, Cracow.
By whom could Mueller arrange for an order to be issued
about Jewish matters to the Commander of the Security
Police, if not by you?
A. I readily admit that, so that if I did write this letter,
I would definitely have obtained the same order to instruct
the Commander of the Security Police and the Security
Service in Cracow about the evacuation, in other words to
issue orders to this effect, but on orders from Mueller. I
had to draft the order in this letter in that way, and not
in any other way, not on my own initiative.
Q. And in what other resettlement matters in the
Generalgouvernement did you act on the basis of Mueller’s
A. I said that I did not act anywhere in resettlement
matters within the Generalgouvernement; I never acted – the
entire Section never acted…this was the
Generalgouvernement’s own matter, the Section did not even
act on the level of technical transport matters, as can be
Judge Halevi: Do you agree – were there not also transports
from the Generalgouvernement to Auschwitz?
Accused: As far as I know only the parts from Zamosc. I
do not know about any other. But this was a different
matter, under an entirely different reference and by way of
entirely different orders.
Q. So does that mean the Jews from the Generalgouvernement
were not deported to Auschwitz?
A. I am not aware of this at the moment. I would assume,
however, that there definitely were transports of Jews from
the areas where Auschwitz bordered on the
Generalgouvernement, but such transports were carried out
under the administration of the Generalgouvernement itself,
and the Head Office for Reich Security was not involved. I
do not know anything about this, nor did I find any document
related to this. This is in the nature of things, because
the competent body there was the Directorate General of the
German Eastern Railways (Ostbahn), and I believe that
probably that was the decisive factor in these matters.
Q. But these were most probably transport Jews as defined in
the document already shown to you, T/1280, were they not?
A. If such transports were carried out, then that would
again have shown that in the Economic-Administrative Head
Office everything was lumped together. But in practical
terms that would not have been right, because some other
body would have been responsible for those transport Jews in
the Generalgouvernement. In other words the Senior SS and
Police Leader, and not the Chief of the Security Police,
because on Himmler’s orders, the evacuation within the
Generalgouvernement, which would also have included this
part to Auschwitz, was handed over to the Higher SS and
0Q. Does this document not in fact show precisely the
opposite? Does this exhibit T/1280 not show that in the
camps, only IVB4 was recognized as the assigning body, and
that the role of the Commander of the SS and the Police in
the Generalgouvernement is not mentioned at all?
A. These need only have been transports of small
importance…a specific decree was not issued. It cannot be
of importance either, as I have already said, Your Honour,
that I do not know; I just envisaged the possibility of
something like this being theoretically possible, but I do
not know of any practical example or any case in point.
Attorney General: One of the aims of the Wannsee Conference
was to place the Final Solution of the Jewish Question here
in the Generalgouvernement in the hands of Heydrich. Is
Accused: Yes, that is correct.
Q. And the representative of the Generalgouvernement stated
at Wannsee that he agreed that Heydrich and his Bureau
should implement the Final Solution of the Jewish Question
in the area of the Generalgouvernement as well. Is that
A. I believe it reads that the Chief of the Security Police
and the Security Service in the Generalgouvernement was to
implement the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the
Generalgouvernement. I do not remember the exact form of
Q. In any case, Goering’s general order, which Heydrich
announced at the Wannsee Conference, that he had put
Heydrich in charge of implementation of the Final Solution
of the Jewish Question, applied to the Generalgouvernement
as well. Is that correct?
A. I definitely believe that to be the case, although the
Wannsee Conference, I believe, primarily means freeing
Europe of the Jews, I believe. I do not remember this now.
But Buehler, State Secretary Buehler, used a form of wording
which says the same thing, that the start was to be made in
– or with – the Generalgouvernement. I do not remember.
And Luther had dealt with the European countries.
Presiding Judge: Let us at least agree that Poland is part
of Europe. That is clear, is it not?
Accused: Yes, that is clear.
Judge Halevi: And Buehler said clearly, “that the solution
of the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement is in
overall charge of the Chief of the Security Police and the
Attorney General: And one of Buehler’s aims, as it says in
the IVB4 memo, was because Frank was showing signs of
wanting to solve the Jewish Question himself. Look at the
Accused: Yes, that is correct.
Q. The Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the
Generalgouvernement was proposed by the Head Office for
Reich Security, was it not?
A. No, that was not proposed by the Head Office for Reich
Q. Carried out, it was carried out in the
Generalgouvernement by the Head Office for Reich Security,
is that not true?
A. No, that is not true.
Q. That is not true?
A. Globocnik, for example, was not a member of the Head
Office for Reich Security; there was an agreement between
the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service –
in other words, Heydrich – and Krueger. Both obtained their
orders from Himmler. That is how I have always remembered
this…how else would I have heard this described?
Q. Well, if that is the case, then why, several months after
the Wannsee Conference, did the retroactive orders for the
killing of Jews not go to Heydrich, if Krueger was the
A. I was never initiated at the time into these delicate
high-level matters of the power to give orders. I do not
know, and today I cannot give any information about this
either. The fact is that the SS and Police Leaders in the
Generalgouvernement who actually carried out these jobs were
not subordinate to the Security Police, but to the Senior SS
and Police Leader in Cracow.
Q. Very well, let us look at the list, T/263. This is the
list of those who exterminated Polish Jewry – all persons
who belonged to the Head Office for Reich Security. Is that
A. Might I perhaps read the top part?
A. List (a) is the Commanders of the Security Police and the
Security Service, the Commandants – the Commandants of the
Security Police and the Security Service – they have nothing
to do with the SS and Police Leader – they were responsible
for general security duties in the Generalgouvernement. And
list (b) – I do not know about this, apparently these are
members of staff of the office holders listed above, of the
offices of the incumbents listed above.
Q. They are all members of the Head Office for Reich
Security, are they not?
A. They belong…at the top it states a precise list of the
SS Leaders of the Head Office for Reich Security stationed
in the Generalgouvernement, yes.
Q. All right, would you please give me the list. I shall
introduce you to a few of the persons there. For example:
Otto Mohl, the person in charge of the crematoria in
A. I never knew him…I do not know…I have never heard the
Q. Hermann Worthoff – the destroyer of the Kolomea Ghetto?
A. Also not…never heard the name.
Q. All right, there is no point in asking you about the
others. Do you admit that the persons who are listed here
belonged to the Head Office for Reich Security?
A. I gather this from the reference above; I did not know
this, because I do not know these people. Bierkamp – the
first one – I know him by name, I never spoke to the man.
The others I do not even know by name.
Q. Do you know that Frank repeated time and again at the
various meetings of his government in Cracow, in the
presence of Krueger, that he had not issued the orders for
the destruction of the Jews, and that these orders came from
Berlin, and that Berlin, therefore, had carried out the
“Final Solution” – and that was still during the War, not
after the War was over. Is that true?
A. I have read extensively here in “Poliakov” about Frank
and what he said; I have not read anything else about this
matter. As to whether at the time I really knew anything
about this, I can no longer say today, but I do know one
thing – that from one point of view it is true, because
Buehler, his own State Secretary, did take part in the
Wannsee Conference, and here more or less entreated Heydrich
to start here in the Generalgouvernement. What operating
orders were then issued, I do not know…I was not involved
with this, either.
Q. And when, after the Wannsee Conference, you stayed behind
with Heydrich and Mueller over a drink and had a friendly
conversation, was there not some talk of acceding to
A. I certainly do not believe that to have been the case,
because as far as I remember, it…Heydrich at the time was
in high spirits, because he had definitely expected
problems, but these problems did not arise, and that is why
he was in such high spirits at the time; but as to the
technical official…as far as I can remember, there was no
further talk. And I still have some memory of this, because
I can still see the setting – this building, that is to say
the inside, where the meeting was held.
Presiding Judge: Before you continue. He referred to
Frank’s diary; will you be returning to this? If not, I
should like to know what was the meaning of Frank saying in
Krueger’s presence that that came from Berlin. I see from
this diary that there was a constant dispute between Frank
and Heydrich or Kaltenbrunner, until he got rid of them from
Attorney General: Until who got rid of whom, Your Honour?
Presiding Judge: The impression is, until Frank got rid of
them. In any case, perhaps you could give the reference
Attorney General: Certainly. I shall point it out. [To the
Accused] Do you know that Frank resigned once or twice, or
threatened to resign, in protest at the interference by the
Gestapo in his area of authority?
Accused: I did not know that at the time. But I did hear
it or read it somewhere afterwards…or perhaps I read it
here in Israel…I do not know for sure, because these power
struggles did not normally penetrate down to the
Sections…neither to myself, nor to my other colleagues at
that time. They were settled at higher levels.
Q. Are you telling us – are you seriously telling us that
there you were in Berlin, the Head of a Section which dealt
with Jewish affairs, and you did not have any idea of what
was going on in the Generalgouvernement and in the
government of the Generalgouvernement? Are you seriously
claiming that that was the case?
A. I have said that I do not consciously remember. I read
it…whether I knew it at the time, I do not know…the
intrigues and everything involved…the power struggles of
the top-level leadership…we did not hear or see anything
about that…because generally they took place very much in
the dark and on the quiet. As an example, I would like to
state that I was, for example, extremely surprised when I
read the…I think it was the blue Poliakoff, the biting
letters between Rosenberg and someone else…all these
things did not penetrate down to us…and I read them here
to my surprise.
Presiding Judge: This is deviating once again from the
Attorney General: That was not my question – I was not
asking about disputes on competence. Are you trying to tell
us that you, as a Section Head in the Jewish Affairs
Department in the Gestapo, where Jews were deported from all
over Europe, that you had no idea as to what occurred in the
Generalgouvernement and that you had no hand in this? Are
you seriously telling us that?
Accused: No, then I have completely misunderstood the
question. I understood the question to be about Frank and
his resignation. As to what happened in the
Generalgouvernement, I knew about that, but I had nothing to
do with it. I knew this by hearsay; I myself had no
dealings with it.
Q. Who told you about it?
A. First of all, I saw it on the spot during my official
journeys, and secondly it was talked about in Berlin. There
were the meetings of Section Heads which took place every
Q. Who came from the Generalgouvernement to the Section Head
A. Those persons did not come from the Generalgouvernement,
but some thirty Section Heads of the Head Office for Reich
Security would meet. We also had Intelligence people with
us. And in addition, in my Chief’s antechamber, there were
always a number of Section Heads who had to wait outside
until it was their turn. There was talk about such things
when people came there, and all sorts of things were talked
about the whole time. But I have already said, of course I
had during my official journeys also…I had, of course,
become aware of this matter. But as I said, I had nothing
to do with it.
Q. If it please the Court, if it wishes to recess…
Presiding Judge: I should like to check whether Dr.
Servatius has received a translation into a language he
understands of Frank’s diary which was referred to today, in
Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, I must check. This was not
included in the list of documents to be dealt with today.
Presiding Judge: Very well. The Court will recess until
8.30 tomorrow morning.