Q. Now, in the first part of your cross-examination by Dr.
Servatius, I believe you mentioned something about Mueller.
Could you please repeat it? I did not properly understand
it. I believe you said that none of those men mentioned
Mueller as co-responsible for the annihilation of the Jews –
is that correct?
A. That is what made the different statements coming from
different persons seem so true to me, because if there was
an attempt to fabricate any declaration, it would seem more
logical that the blame should be placed upon a man of high
rank – like Mueller who was at the head of the Gestapo; but
they all said Eichmann.
Q. Now my last question. I believe that both Eichmann and
Mueller were listed at the time as missing.
A. Yes – that is true.
Judge Raveh Yes – just a few questions, Justice Musmanno.
You told us that you spoke to Frank in Italian, so I take it
that the whole conversation between him and you was a direct
one, without an interpreter?
Witness Musmanno: That is correct.
Q. And now – how about the other people? How did you talk to
A. Ribbentrop spoke English. Koller spoke English. Goering
did not – I used an interpreter with him. Kaltenbrunner
Q. And Schellenberg?
A. Schellenberg – mostly German. But he managed a little bit
Q. You do not recall the interpreters? Or do you recall
A. No. There was a number of them there.
Q. Were they reliable men?
A. Very much so. They were all given tests, Your Honour.
Q. And now about Mueller. Were you not surprised that they
did not mention him?
A. I was surprised. But I did not question them, though. You
see, Your Honour, I was not conducting an investigation and
they were just telling me this. But then, upon reflection, I
wondered how it was that Mueller, who headed the Gestapo –
this dread and sinister organization – was never mentioned.
Q. So you did not ask questions on this point?
A. No, Your Honour.
Q. Now, when you spoke to Schellenberg – Kaltenbrunner was
A. That is correct.
Q. And this “youth friendship” between Eichmann and
Kaltenbrunner – who mentioned it?
Q. Kaltenbrunner himself did not talk about it?
A. No – I must repeat, Your Honour, that it was not an
extended conversation. I wanted to find out about Hitler,
and these things came up sort of spontaneously. It was
different with General Koller – I got to know him very well
and had many many conversations with him.
Q. And now – I think you told us that Schellenberg said that
Eichmann was the head of Office IVB. Did you say so?
A. Yes. That is correct.
Q. Do you recall the expression “IVB”?
A. Well, it wasn’t only Schellenberg. That was on the chart.
I do not know that he particularly referred to IVB – well,
he did in this sense. When he spoke about the “Operation
Zeppelin,” he did say that Amt VI, which he headed, worked
very closely with Amt IV.
Q. Because you know possibly that IVB means a group of
officers – it was an entire department – and there are no
differences of opinion that Eichmann was not the head of the
whole group, but the head of the Section IVB4 or IVD4?
Presiding Judge: So your reply was IVB4, wasn’t it?
Witness Musmanno: Yes. IVB4.
Judge Raveh So Schellenberg referred to IVB4, not to IVD4?
Witness Musmanno: I do not recall now whether he actually
used the words when I spoke of Eichmann. He spoke of seeing
Eichmann a number of times, because they were in that same
big organization, the RSHA.
Q. Now according to Schellenberg, when did he learn about
the full scope and character of the Einsatzgruppen?
A. He knew of the Einsatzgruppen from the beginning, because
he drew up that contract. He alleged that he did not know of
the murderous character of the Einsatzgruppen. That was his
defence in the Ministries’ Trial.
Q. Yes, but what did he tell you?
A. Well, just as I indicated, that Eichmann…
Q. Because the judges in the Ministries’ Case did not
believe him on this point?
A. Yes, in the Ministries’ Case decision, they indicated
that Schellenberg did know just what the Einsatzgruppen did,
but that knowledge was not complicity.
Q. So what did Schellenberg tell you about the time when he
gained full knowledge?
A. He never indicated to me just when it was that he got the
full knowledge. During our conversations he related what had
Q. SAnd, according to him, when did he know about Eichmann’s
part in the Einsatzgruppen?
A. He did not specify chronologically.
Judge Raveh Thank you.
Judge Halevi: Justice Musmanno, I do not quite understand
about Professor Trevor Roper. He had an official mission to
investigate and you had none, or what was the position?
Witness Musmanno: I had no relationship with Trevor Roper
at the time that I was conducting my investigation. I did
not get to meet Trevor Roper until I myself went to Oxford
University one summer and took some courses there and I got
to know him very well. And then, of course, he indicated to
me just how it came about. He conducted this investigation
officially and then he wrote his book. This is what I did.
Q. It was said that you interrogated all these secretaries
of important people – did you question the secretary of
Eichmann by any chance?
A. Oh no.
Q. Did General Koller mention the name Mueller with regard
to the whole affair of the pilots?
A. He did not.
Q. Because I should have thought that the execution of the
pilots in that case should have been the task of the
A. He went to Kaltenbrunner who, of course, was over
Mueller. He thought he would get direct action.
Q. And then, you said, Kaltenbrunner referred him directly
to Eichmann and not to Mueller?
A. Kaltenbrunner told him what his difficulties were, and
then, on his own, Koller went to Eichmann.
Q. When was this? What did he say? When did it happen?
A. The very last month or two of the War. The order,
however, had been given before, a long time before. And
there was even a discussion between Hitler and Koller about
the retroactivity of this order. Hitler indicated that he
did not stand on any legal point.
Q. But did Koller say that his conversation with Hitler with
regard to the pilots was conducted in the bunker, in
Hitler’s bunker, or prior to his going down to the bunker?
A. No. I have the impression that it was in the bunker, as I
recall it now. In fact, after Koller left the bunker, I do
not think that he even returned during these last few days.
Q. You say that after he left the bunker, he did not return.
But could it have been before he went down to the bunker?
A. My impression, Your Honour, now, is that this took place
in the bunker because Hitler was in the bunker for a long
Q. A long time?
Q. In your investigations about Hitler’s last days or about
his fate, did you ascertain whether the head of the Gestapo,
Mueller, had been in Hitler’s bunker during these last days?
A. I got the impression he was not.
Q. Had Mueller nothing to do with the investigation about
Himmler’s treason, or what was regarded as Himmler’s
A. I have no definite knowledge on that subject. But there
is no doubt in my mind that everybody was alerted to see
what could be done about this, because naturally Hitler was
infuriated about this treason. He had Fegelein executed only
because at one time Fegelein had been Himmler’s adjutant,
had been close to him, and Fegelein knew absolutely nothing
about these negotiations for the surrender of the German
armies to the Western Powers.
Q. Before being executed, was Fegelein interrogated by
Mueller of the Gestapo?
A. Not that I am aware of. No knowledge like that came to
me. He left the bunker and went to his home. Then when news
of the Himmler betrayal came to Hitler, he inquired about
Fegelein and he sent out soldiers to get Fegelein, brought
him back and in a matter of hours had him shot. Eva Braun
had made protestations because he was, of course, her
Q. Was Schellenberg the one who mentioned to you the case of
Morgen, whom you mentioned in your evidence?
A. That evidence was given in the I.M.T. trial. He testified
in August 1946.
Q. When you mentioned Morgen in your evidence today, you
were not referring to what Schellenberg or anybody else had
told you, but directly to Morgen’s evidence before the
A. Yes, yes. I gave that as an explanation of Eichmann’s
Judge Halevi: Thank you.
Presiding Judge: Just three brief questions. How did it come
about that the Navy conducted this investigation? Was this
within the competence of the Navy?
Witness Musmanno: Do you mean with regard to the death of
Q. Yes, your own investigation.
A. I was a naval aid to General Mark W. Clark and was
present at the surrender of the German Armies to General
Clark, who headed the Fifteenth Army Group, and I noted that
many of the generals were not particularly crestfallen about
what had happened and there came reports to me that they
were saying that they were surrendering now but they still
would have a chance when Hitler returned. But they did not
accept as a certainty the reports of Hitler’s death.
I wrote to my superiors in the Navy – although I was
attached to the Army at the time – and indicated that, if it
was true that Hitler was not dead, the war really was not
ended. But if it was true and a legend would build up that
he was alive – that there would still be a great deal of
turmoil in Germany.
A. I said that there was the possibility that they might
look upon Hitler as the French looked upon Napoleon when he
had been exiled to Elba and then returned. Some credence was
given to the assumption or story that Hitler was still
alive, because the Russians insisted that he was alive.
Stalin actually told President Truman at Potsdam that he
believed Hitler was alive.
Admiral William Glasford then asked me to ascertain the
actual facts. It was no formal investigation by sitting and
bringing witnesses before me. On my own, because I was
attending other duties, I would go to the prisoners-of-war
camp, to homes and saw all these people…and that is how it
Q. Did you make notes of these conversations you had at the
A. As I spoke to men like Goering and Ribbentrop, I made no
notes, because I did not want to make them apprehensive – I
wanted spontaneously from them what they knew about Hitler.
A. Yes. And your conversations with others – for example
A. Well, Schellenberg neither, because I saw Schellenberg a
great number of times and of course, when I got back to my
room I would write up a little synopsis of what I’d got…
Q. Yes. And are these notes still in your possession? (No.)
You destroyed them?
A. Well, with the passage of time many papers get lost,
Q. Are these conversations mentioned in the book you wrote
later – the conversations you told us about today?
A. I mention Goering and Schellenberg and some others.
Q. Do you mention the accused Eichmann there – that they
referred to Eichmann?
A. Oh no, no – because at that time I was not interested in
Eichmann, he did not mean a thing to me then. In the first
place, everybody said he was dead and…he did not interest
me – then later on, of course, he seemed rather important.
Q. Now, lastly – about this order to execute Allied pilots.
From your investigation did you find out whether Allied
fliers were actually executed on those orders of Hitler’s?
A. There again, Your Honour, that was not a subject of my
Presiding Judge: I see.
Witness Musmanno: And Koller told me this, and I had great
faith in him – he was really a gentleman; and there is no
doubt, there is historical evidence of the fact, that Hitler
had issued this order – that is absolutely irrefutable.
I don’t know – Koller told me of the strategem he used,
which to me seemed like an excellent one, and I think that
he was able to save them.
Presiding Judge: Yes. I see. Thank you Justice Musmanno –
that concludes your evidence.
The next Session will begin tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.