In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > Estonia is the most prosperous
>
> It is not.. it is the smallest of the three countries.
It is also the most prosperous:
Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (page does not exist)
<quote>
<deletions>
66. Estonia $14,300, 2004 est.
<deletions>
70. Lithuania, $12,500, 2004 est.
<deletions>
74. Latvia, $11,500, 2004 est.
<deletions>
78. South Africa, $11,100, 2004 est.
<deletions>
82. Russia, $9,800, 2004 est.
<deletions>
</quote>
> > and problem-free Baltic country,
>
> It has plenty of problems.. because it, too, has plenty of russians.
> The recent conflicts of Estonians vs russians at soccer games show how
> close open confrontation really is.
Nonsense. Estonia took an “If you are not against us you are with us”
-policy years ago, and it has paid off. Soccer games exist to allow people
to let off steam that they might vent in less frivolous ways
elsewhwere.
>
> > but,
> > outside of the Old Town and Pirita, Tallinn is rather mundane.
>
> The blight being in the form of relic soviet russian ghetto type
> buildings.
Being mundane and blight are two different things. One of the
architecturally most unfortunate buildings in Tallinn is the recently
opened and preposterously pompous Estonian-designed Hotel Tallink
(http://images.worldres.com/property/a79500/79726/hotel.jpg).(page does not exist)
> > P=E4rnu and
> > Tartu have their charms, Narva is not worth the trip.
>
> Yes, too many russians…
No. Too much Soviet-era minimally functionalist architecture.
>
> > Estonians are proud,
> > confident, and goal-directed, and their country is developing at an
> > amazing pace.
>
> But not as an amazing pace as that of Latvia – which led all of Europe
> in economic growth – once again – last quarter at a rate of ***11.5***
> procent!
Congratulations to the Latvians, but the high growth rate is a symptom of
the fact that Latvia is currently the poorest member of the EU and has a
lot of catching up to do.
> > For a visitor who does not know the language, Estonia is the
> > Baltic country where you can best get along in some foreign language other
> > than Russian.
>
> And except for Estonian…
Estonian is not a foreign language in Estonia, nejęga. And Estonians
hardly expect foreigners to speak their complex and non-Indo-European
language, even if they are delighted when one makes even the slghtest
effort to do so.
>
> > English, German, Finnish, and even Swedish are widely
> > spoken, at least in Tallinn.
>
> Insolent visiting monkeys should try to speak Estonian.
Eestis olles mä räägin avalikult alati eesti keelt. (When in Estonia I
always speak Estonian in public.)
>
> > Latvia has the only real metropolis in the Baltics, even if the Riga Old
> > Town is not as charming as Tallinn’s. Jurmala is extraordinary and worth a
> > visit.
>
> That’s why all of those russian crooks have appropriated and scammed
> their way into a virtual monopolization of Latvians’ beautiful coastal
> strand. The idea of having illegal foreign oppressors and murderers
> squatting on the property of those natives who they have vanquished and
> destroyed is something that still calls for remediation.
>
> > Latvia is, at the same time, the poorest but, for visitors at
> > least, most expensive of the three Baltics countries.
>
> That is more hole-manic crap. He harbors deep seating sociopathologic
> animosities against Latvian – as per kremlin policy.
You easily pay ¤120 a night for a decent hotel room in Riga; in Tallinn
and Vilnius you can find good accommodation for half that price.
>
> > Latvia is the Baltic
> > country with the most complex identity crisis.
>
> I think not. Using your own terminology, russkie land is the most
> conflicted. Killing 200,000 Chechen civilians is more indicative of
> “most complex identity crisis” by any criteria.
Chechnya is one small part of Russia, Russophobe nejęga and klaun!
>
> > Visitors to Latvia who do
> > not know Latvian or Russian will find themselves in some challenging
> > situations.
>
> What? Couldn’t you communicate effectively with the russian hookers in
> your native Brighton Beach dialect?
Sorry to say this, but Latvia is the least tourist-friendly of the three
Baltic countries.
> > Lithuania differs radically from its two Baltic neighbors to the north.
>
> Lithuania is almost identical to Latvia. Except for having less russian
> illegal colonists.
Nonsense. With a strong Roman Catholic heritage permeating both urban and
rural landscapes, Lithuania differs visually (steeples, Catholic clergy,
nuns) and audibly (church bells) from its Protestant neighbors to the
north.
> > Although it is the largest Baltic country with respect to both area and
> > popuulation,
>
> It isn’t. Including the russian occupied province of Abrene, Latvia is
> larger.
In case you never noticed, nejčga, “is” and “would be” are alternative
modalities of existence. Abrene is currently *not* part of Latvia, for
which reason your speculations and wet dreams are irrelevant to the issue.
Lithuania is the largest of the Baltic countries at the moment of this
writing. According to your Letto-Zhirinovskian way of thinking, Russia would be
much larger than it is today if the foreigner-controlled parts of former
Czarist Russia and foreigner-purchased Al[y]aska were to be reunited with
the Motherland.
Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/(page does not exist)
<quote>
<deletions>
131 Lithuania 65,200 km2
132 Latvia 64,589 km2
<deletions>
141 Estonia 45,226 km2
<deletions
</quote>
> > its capital, Vilnius, feels even smaller than Tallinn,
>
> Maybe to russian agents from Helsinkii, but that isn’t saying much.
I’ve visited all three Baltic capitals several times. I know what I’m
talking about, nejęga. Vilnius is crowded into a valley and has, wisely,
not gone skyscraper-happy to the extent that Tallinn has. Owing to its
size, location, and architecture, Vilnius feels smaller than Tallinn, even
though it has a larger popuation.
> > this
> > being compensated for by its urbane second city, Kaunas.
>
> ‘Urbane’? You’re nuts.
You wouldn’t know nuts if you looked into a hall of mirrors. If you knew
anything about inner-Baltic dynamics, nejęga un klaun, you would know that
Kaunas is a proud old city that has long prided itself for being more
purely Lithuanian and urbane than Vilnius.
> > The Lithuanian
> > countryside and architecture differ dramatically from their Estonian and
> > Latvian counterparts due to a milder climate and different cultural
> > influences,
>
> You lie again. The Lithuanian countryside is just as beautiful as is
> the Latvia countryside.
Ignorant Indiana-based swine, I did not take a standpoint relative to
their ranking with respect to beauty. I wrote that they “differ
dramatically”. This is apparent as soon as you cross the border between
Latvia and Lithuania.
>
> > Lithuania being traditionally Catholic as opposed to the
> > Protestantism of Estonia and most of Latvia.
>
> You lie again! Latvia is also majority Catholic. Just like Lithuania.
I never lie. Latvia is a traditionally Lutheran country; Catholic Latgalia
is an exception.
> > Unlike their neighbors to the
> > north, who regard food as being essentially fuel, Lithuanians have a more
> > esthetic approach to food and dining.
>
> You are an insulting and lying monkey. Go eat a russian bananna.
Lithuania once ruled over lands extending as far south as the Black Sea.
This has had a lasting impact on Lithuanian cuisine.
> > Spices and herbs are used
> > generously, and presentation is regarded as an essential part of a
> > culinary experience. Visitors to Lithuania who do not know Lithuanian or
> > Russian might find themselves in some challenging situations, but not so
> > much as in Latvia.
>
> And an obvious monkey too.
You can’t refute what I write, so you resort to simian similes. Whadda joik!
> > The three Baltic countries are quite different,
>
> They are all quite similar. They all belong to NATO. And they all
> condemned the recent SU-27 violation of Baltic airspace. And they will
> all be meeting in Riga next summer for the NATO summit.
>
> > and all of them are worth
> > experiencing. For bargain hunting and a concrete feeling that the locals
> > are really busy and unitedly building their future, Estonia is best.
>
> Says your momma, right?
Estonia is the only one with a year-round dedicated tourist industry.
>
> > For
> > the feeling that you are in a major, if somewhat schizophrenic, European
> > metropolis with an extraordinary seaside resort nearby, Latvia is best.
>
> Just don’t go to any russian owned business.
That is difficult to avoid. The last time I was in Riga I entered an
establishment that advertized itself as a grâmatnîca (book shop). Despite
the Latvian on the display window, they only sold books in Russian.
> > For excellent and beautifully presented food, Romanesque architecture, and
> > a Central European-type countryside, with picturesque villages built
> > around the local church, Lithuania is best.
>
> Because it has been less screwed up by russians.
No. Because Lithuania has a different cultural history, only a very small
part of which involves being screwed up by Russians. Lithuania also has a
history of being an expanding, conquering, and occupying nation.
\EH
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:15 EST 2005
Article: 1066617 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: POLL: what’s your favorite baltic country?
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:47:02 +0300
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From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:16 EST 2005
Article: 1066619 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:03:47 +0300
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This is an excerpt without the schlarly apparatus from a book about the
Holocaust written by Finnish historian Hannu Rautkallio that I am
currently translating.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
An excerpt from Chapter 1, *Holokaustilta pelastetut [Rescued from the
Holocaust]*, by Hannu Rautkallio.
Translation ŠEugene Holman.
<quote>
What happened in the Baltic countries?
The end of the Cold War suddenly opened altogether new sources of
information in the Eastern European countries and the former Soviet Union
where Nazi Germany had committed acts of violence motivated by its racial
policies. Guilt for the Holocaust expanded to cover countries other than
Germany. The question of the participation in the crimes committed by the
Nazis against the Jews became a subject of interest to historians as well
as to the general public in a new way. The collapse of the Soviet Union
meant that the European countries released from its occupation were also
forced to settle their accounts concerning the part of their past that is
connected with Nazi Germany. The wall of silence characteristic of the
communist past no longer protected these countries from their history
during their wars. Most of the demands for the settlement of historical
accounts for the three Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania,
were presented from the outside, particularly from world Jewish
communities. These countries, which had the misfortune to be occupied by
the Soviet Union, were now being asked to account for their Nazi past as
well. The citizens of the Baltic Countries were thus forced into a
position where they had to settle accounts simultaneously for the two
dictatorships that had occupied them.
Nearest to Finland, the three Baltic countries wound up being occupied
by Germany in June 1941. There has been nothing uncertain for a long time
about the fates of their Jewish populations because the local authorities
of occupied Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania participated in their
executions. This question requires very careful evaluation for all three
countries because their position as occupied countries differed from that
of the Western European countries that were occupied by Nazi Germany. The
citizens of the Baltic Countries participated in Hitler’s war against the
Soviet Union as did the Finns. The three countries had had a total prewar
Jewish population of about 350,000; about 20,000 of them survived the war.
About 28,000 people other than Jews were also killed during the German
occupation of Estonia between 1941 and 1944.
The solution of the Jewish question in the Baltic Countries was in
stark contra-diction to the rescue of the Jews in Finland. Can the Baltic
countries be compared with Finland from the standpoint of any relation
with Germany? Making comparisons of this kind has not been customary
because Finland managed to save itself from that fate of the Baltic
Countries. The Baltic Countries were first occupied by the Soviet Union,
but the Germans łliberated˛ these countries, as the Estonians are
accustomed to saying. In the Baltic Countries the German presence was not
compared with the occupation by the Soviet Union at all, a fate that
Finland had avoided as a consequence of the peace treaty it had concluded
in March 1940. The Holocaust justifies making such a comparison, because
it took place in all of the countries that were in Germany’s sphere of
influence, Finland excepted. It even took place in the areas occupied by
Bulgaria, although this country was favorably disposed to Germany. Unlike
Finland, however, Bulgaria did not join Hitler’s eastern campaign.
For the citizens of the Baltic countries settling accounts with respect
to the Holocaust has been a painful point in their recent history, as a
point of departure for which the national suffering experienced during
the Soviet occupation has been taken. In August 1998 then Estonian
president Lennart Meri appointed a commission to investigate crimes
against humanity committed in Estonia. The main target assigned to the
commission was the events that took place during the Soviet era, not the
killing of the Jews. A partial report was published in the spring of 2004.
The president of Lithuania, Valdas Adamkus, appointed a similar commission
on September 7, 1998 but its assignment was to evaluate the Soviet Union’s
łcrimes in Lithuania during the occupation,˛ not the German occupation or
the destruction of Jews in which Lithuanian local collaborators are known
to have committed atrocities.
In contrast to the Estonians, the Lithuanian authorities have, for the
present, examined their recent past by passing over the period of German
occupation. The only perceptible issue from that period that is traumatic
and a matter of national shame when viewed in retrospect was the almost
complete destruction of the Lithuanian Jewish community. The Lithuanians
have been reluctant to settle historical accounts. As a kind of visible
concession, the Prime Minister of Lithuania announced after the Stockholm
łHolocaust Forum˛ on April 19, 2000 that Lithuania would be participating
in the international łHolocaust educational program˛ begun on the
initiative of Swedish prime minister Göran Persson. Lithuania’s efforts to
clarify its own crimes committed during the Nazi era were buried in the
political łgeneral discussion˛ of the Holocaust, about which more later.
The first publication of the Lithuanian presidential commission concerning
the crimes of the Soviet Union appeared in 2003. Latvia followed its
neighbors when, president Vaira Vike-Freiberga appointed a similar truth
commission only in October 2003. In Latvia dealing with the Nazi past and
the destruction of Jews is evidently a more painful issue than it is in
its two Baltic neighbors, at least judging from articles in the Latvian
press.
On the other hand, the fate of the Latvian Jews has provided the
subject for the most comprehensive study of the Holocaust to have been
made of any of the three Baltic countries. Andrew Ezergailis has described
in meticulous detail the killing of the Jews of Latvia, which started from
very first days of the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union. The small group of
forces making up Einsatzgruppe A that operated in the northern military
sector and was assisted by łordinary˛ German Order Police, would not have
succeeded in implementing the rapid and efficient killing of Jews without
local participation. Ezergailis remarks that łit is by no means clear what
participation meant˛. The special military formation established by the
Latvian Victor Arajs, the Arajs Commando, consisted of Latvians and was
responsible for killing an estimated 26,000 people. A total of
approximately 85,000 Jews was killed in Latvia, but at Rumbula, for
example, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 only twelve SS men killed
24,000 Jews, with 1,500 Latvian commandos guarding the operation and
keeping order.
The international commission led by Max Jakobson, a leading Finnish
diplomat, had documented numerous criminal acts directed at Jews and Roma
in Estonia in which Estonians had participated by assisting the lightly
manned German extermination group Sonderkommando 1a of Einsatzgruppe A. It
had been divided into German and Estonian divisions. The commission
reported that it believed łEstonians actively participated in the
detentions and killing of Jews,˛ and that the Estonian police had carried
out these deeds independently while subordinated to the German-appointed
local government (the so-called directorate). Eugenia Gurin-Loov provided
these details in her book that was published as early as 1994. She refers
to the period between July 1941 and June 1942 in the annual report
(Jahresbericht) for 1942 compiled by Martin Sandberger, the commander of
Sonderkomando 1a of Einsatzgruppe A. The entry for July 1, 1942 says:
łWhen the war broke out the majority of the Jews evacuated themselves
along with their property to Russia, so that after the liberation of
Estonia only 921 Jews (468 men and 453 women) remained in Estonia, all of
whom were subjected to special treatment. Today Estonia is free of Jews
(judenfrei).˛ The term łspecial treatment of the Jews˛ had meant that the
Estonian police and the Estonian self-defense units (omakaitse) that had
assisted Einsatzkommando 1a to kill the Jews who had remained when they
were driven out of their hiding places on the basis of information
provided by informers.
The procedure had been similar in Lithuania and Latvia, but it was
implemented in those countries on a vastly larger scale than in Estonia.
During the German occupation, these countries and Belarus formed the
Reichskomissariat Ostland, but in practice the different branches of the
RSHA administration, (such as the SS, Gestapo, and SD) operating there
received their orders directly from Berlin. The highest leadership did not
keep the Wehrmacht informed about political problems, one of the most
central of which was to destroy the Jews. The large-scale destruction of
the Baltic Jews began months before the Nazi leadership started to plan
the łfinal solution˛. Jews were killed according to Hitler’s instruction
łas partisans˛, but in Latvia and Lithuania the local population
participated in this endeavor with marked enthusiasm. The Jews were
considered to be communists who had been Soviet henchmen during the
previous occupation.
The killing of Jews in Lithuania progressed in three different phases.
First they were destroyed in a frenzy of anger, in the second phase they
were ghettoized, and in the last phase (August 1943 to July 1944)
Lithuanian Jews were sent along with Jews from other countries to be
exterminated at the concentration camps that had been established in
Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. During the first phase (from the end of
June until March 1941) about 177,000 Jews were killed. In Lithuania and
Latvia anti-Semitism appeared in the form of the local population
participating in the murder of the Jews already in advance of the arrival
of the Einsatzkommandos and German police battalions. Then head of
Einsatzkommando A, SS-Brigadeführer Franz Stahlecker, reported on October
15, 1941 about the results achieved: łThe active anti-Semitism that
suddenly broke out when the Germans arrived has not died down, the
Lithuanians are at our disposal voluntarily and indefatigably in all of
our operations directed at Jews; sometimes they begin to do such things at
their own initiative.˛Latvian railway workers wondered why the Germans
were bringing Jews from other countries to Latvia to be killed rather than
kill them themselves.
In the other countries occupied by Germany, as well as in its
satellites and allies, with Finland being the shining exception, there
were also collaborators who participated in the killing of Jews. Reference
has been made to this fact in Estonia when excuses were sought afterwards
for the disgraceful behavior. References to the suffering that took place
during the communist occupation are to be regarded as justifications in
the same vein. Jakobson’s commission noted that the oppression that the
Soviet Union had practiced in Estonia made the Estonians łvictims˛ as a
nation. In Latvia and Lithuania far more Jews were exterminated than in
Estonia, which in practice was judenfrei only three months after the
arrival of the Germans.
Had anti-Semitism been something particularly specific to the Baltic
countries? If Finland is to be evaluated on that basis, one must ask why
anti-Semitism in Finland did not result in anything like the events that
were to be observed to the south of the Gulf of Finland? Germany did,
after all, have a łpresence˛ in Finland as well. Finland had also been
cooperating closely with the same dictatorial occupier that the
overwhelming majority of the citizens of the Baltic countries regarded as
the liberating force from the Soviet Union. Is it for this reason that the
Jews of those countries had to be made to suffer? Associating Finland with
this group of countries on the basis of anti-Semitism is a major error,
given the sufferings of the Jews of the Baltic countries where SS-men
assisted the German occupants. Finland’s voluntary SS-men, in contrast,
fought outside of Finland. In Estonia the uniform of a German SS-man had a
different symbolic value than it did in Finland, where only Germans wore
it during the years when the two countries were comrades in arms.
During the decades of the Cold War the Western powers had demonstrated
only minimal interest in trying the Nazis’ Baltic collaborators as war
criminals. Many of them had been living in Western Europe , South America,
Australia, Canada or the United States for decades. The cynicism of the
governments of the United States and Great Britain was demonstrated in
1987 when Karl Linnas, a guard at the Tartu concentration camp, was
deported to the Soviet Union in April of that year as a kind of reminder
that Nazi war crimes were still being investigated in the United States.
Linnas had been condemned to death in absentia in the Soviet Union in 1962
for war crimes. He died of a heart attack while being held in the Soviet
Union awaiting trial.
Linnas had served in 1941 and 1942 as the chief of a concentration camp
in Tartu where thousands of people were shot. The American authorities
knew of his exis-tence, he had been interrogated and he had petitioned
fourteen times to have his case dropped. In 1987 the American authorities
admitted that at least 10,000 Nazi criminals were living in the country,
but they were considered to be refugees from communism, for which reason
they were granted the right to live there despite their Nazi past. In
addition to Linnas, other names were also made public, such as that of
Kazys Palciaus, the former mayor of Kaunas who was living in St.
Petersburg, Florida and of Boleslavs Maikovskis, who, like Linnas, had
been living on Long Island. Palciaus had ordered the Jews of Kaunas to be
ghettoized, Maikokovsikis had organized a pogrom in the Latvian village of
Audrini.
The Office of Special Investigations (OSI), the organ of the United
States Ministry of Justice that investigates war crimes, had long been in
possession of information received from British military intelligence
during the war about the killing and the killers of the Jews in the Baltic
Countries, right down to the names of the individuals concerned. Why had
action not been taken in Washington on the basis of this information? Did
it suffice as a reason that these people said that they were fleeing from
communism? The head of the OSI Alan A. Ryan Jr. admitted łthat the United
States was a haven for the Nazi criminals˛, adding that the OSI had had
several thousand pages of information on the basis of which these people
could be identified as Nazi collaborators. He also considered it
acceptable that the people in the Baltic countries had welcomed the
Germans to their countries as liberators from Soviet occupation łThat is
fine as suchbut these people voluntarily helped to kill innocent people.
This oversteps the boundary between persecution and guilt.˛
Richard Breitman, who studied the coded German police messages that
were de-classified for publication during the 1990s, points out that
nobody outside of the National Security Agency (NSA) had seen these
documents before 1996, and that hundreds of thousands of pages of these
documents, both British and American, remain classified. Even though these
documents were declassified only ten years later, the head of the OSI had
admitted openly that łThe Office of Special Investigations has an enormous
amount of data on the people who perpetrated the Holocaust.˛ These
materials were not published, but rather the case of Karl Linnas was made
to appear in public as though the evidence and testimony had actually come
>from the Soviet Union. According to the New York Times łthe only piece of
evidence that did not come from the Soviet Union was provided by a Finnish
citizen, a Dr. Keiland, which said that he had seen the concentration
camps in Tartu but not Linnas˛.
The officials of the American Ministry of Justice would have preferably
dealt with such cases inaccessible to publicity, as they had been doing
for years. The cases were also awkward because the authenticity of the
documents provided by the Soviet Union was not always regarded as
credible, in addition to which the functionality of its legal system was
regarded with skepticism, but the crimes had taken place on the territory
of the Soviet Union of that time. In Linnas’s case the FBI had confirmed
that the documents signed by Linnas when he had been serving as the
commandant of the concentration camp were genuine.
The authorities may have had other motives as well to slow down or
directly pre-vent the names of Nazi criminal and their local collaborators
that had already been discovered from being made public. They had been
allowed to live in the United States for decades without having to fear
being deported to the Soviet Union. The Cold War years had secured their
status, but their crimes committed during the Nazi period did not diminish
for this reason. The authorities of the leading Western powers simply
decided to forget the relevant documented information. The Soviet Union
had the same objective, because many people there would have had much to
tell about the crimes against humanity committed by the communists both
during and after the war. A peculiarity of the Holocaust is that the
histories of the occupiers and the liberators meet each other in such an
absurd manner.
</quote>
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:17 EST 2005
Article: 1066660 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 17:25:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
“[email protected]” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
> What perfect timing! I’m leaving for Lithuania shortly and I was
> planning on dropping out of SCB anyway. What better time than now,
> when Golman is starting another wave of offensive anti-Baltic garbage.
Offensive? Anti-Baltic? Garbagious? The issues raised in the posted text
have to be dealt with by anyone with a genuine interest in Baltic history.
> Gee, the Kremlin had to come up with something since they’ve been doing
> so badly in the PR stakes recently, so they pay Golman to smear more
> filth.
Filth? The easy way out is to depict the people of the Baltic countries as
perpetual victims.
> Hapless SCB readers will now be bombarded with his distortions
> and tendentious translations for months and months to come. Well, I
> won’t be reading it.
My translation is accurate. The problem is that we tend to be so appalled
at the atrocities committed during the Soviet occupation of the Baltics
that we forget or at least pussyfoot around the atrocities committed
during the Nazi occupation.
> Of all the books Golman could have translated from Finnish (eg one on
> Soviet war crimes, or just plain Baltic linguistics or ethnology) he
> has to chose this one instead. Fui.
I have been translating Prof. Rautkallio’s material for more than fifteen
years. His viewpoints are often controversial, but they deserve an
audience.
> SCB has become a cesspit and I’m
> not a cesspit dweller. Wallow in the filth without me. I’m off to
> greener pastures – literally as well as metaphorically.
Have a nice trip. But remember that there is no “received” version of
Baltic history.
> Oh yeah – look what Golman has linked SCB with: alt.revisionism
Right. Some people in alt.revisionism, a forum for Holocaust deniers *and*
their opponents*, are able to discuss the Holocaust with objectivity.
> That says everything about his mindset. He is a fraud and a sham.
> Yuk! No more will my eyes be offended by his lies.
No lies, that’s Uno Hu[i]’s monopoly. Rather, an attempt to get to the
multifaceted truth.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:17 EST 2005
Article: 1066662 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!easynet-quince!easynet.net!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!news.germany.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 17:44:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128869087 14932 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 14:44:47 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2005 14:44:47 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123453 alt.revisionism:1066662
In article <[email protected]>,
“=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=”
<[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Fascinating epistle, Gintai! Certain topics set you off, it seems.
>
> > No more will my eyes be offended by his lies.
>
> The most fascinating part of your missive. What lies? _What_ lies?
>
> I was offended by Holman’s/Golman’s post, also — but I held my tongue
> because this isn’t lying but _framing_, and quite difficult to argue.
Don’t blame the messenger. I am translating a fascinating book and I
wanted to share this excerpt with you. I see nothing mendacious or
offensive in it.
> You go on and on about the “tendentious” — but you say about as much
> as Hui does on a bad day, sorry.
>
> Look at yourself! So, like, somebody translates a book on the
> Holocaust, but they should rather translate a book on the magnificent
> Lithuanian culture for our barbarian Eastern friends — to take a page
> from our Polish buddies.
The book deals primarily with people who were rescued or exempted from the
Holocaust, this being a rather novel perspective. But before their story
can be told, the context has to be reconstructed. All three Baltic
countries were Holocaust countries, even though it is an era in Baltic
history that most Balts usually prefer to sidestep.
> A cesspool, Gintai? C’est le _pool_, amico mio — you get all huffy
> when the ragged edges of your history are mentioned, and can do nothing
> in response but lash out like the most cretinous bigot of them all.
Agreed. Horrible things have happened in the Baltic countries, and they
were not all perpetrated by the Soviets.
> So sorry — I used to think you had a brain, not to mention a soul.
> Them nasty Jews wanna find out what happened to their murdered
> relatives — but Gintautas de Montr=E9al, the 100% Lithuanian, gets real
> upset. Micro-imperialism is always so very cute!
>
> 1) Say something of value, and this mightn’t be a cesspool, (2) look
> your history in the eyes, as you demand of others.
My purpose in posting the excerpt from Prof. Rautkallio’s book was to
elicit a response such as this. Paldies.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:17 EST 2005
Article: 1066668 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news-out1.kabelfoon.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!xindi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:04:04 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128870244 15234 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 15:04:04 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2005 15:04:04 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123456 alt.revisionism:1066668
In article <[email protected]>,
“=?windows-1257?q?P=E7teris_Cedri=F2=F0_(Peteris_Cedrins)?=”
<[email protected]> wrote:
> ladzius wrote:
> > > I was offended by Holman’s/Golman’s post, also — but I held my tongue
> >
> > and that’s exactly what he wanted
> >
> > L.
>
> Is it? Maybe. His post was obviously intended to be provocative.
To a certain degree, yes. On the other hand, the Holocaust in the Baltics
is not exactly one of the most discussed topics here or anywhere else.
These two forums being devoted, respectively, to discussions of Baltic
history and culture, and the factuality of the Holocaust, I wanted to
share the viewpoints represented by an important Finnish historian.
> I
> think the initial post is wrong-headed — why? — because it paints the
> wrong picture.
Then do something to correct it. The book has been published in Finnish,
but not yet in English. If you have something to contribute in order to
make the eventual English version of the book give a more accurate
picture, by all means do so.
> But if everybody scurries to paint a picture that
> obliterates any possibility of a more accurate picture — painting poor
> little Golman as a Russkie agent or the poor Lithuanians as innocent,
> etc. — then you get — well, what _do_ you get? How is it usually
> painted here? Which part of the painting fails?
The idea that sharing relevant information is somehow implementing an agenda.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:18 EST 2005
Article: 1066669 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: POLL: what’s your favorite baltic country?
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:11:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128870691 15543 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 15:11:31 GMT)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2005 15:11:31 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123457 alt.revisionism:1066669
In article <112[email protected]>, “Joe
Bruno” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> I’ve never been to the Balkans. Of all the places I visited while in
> the Navy, I liked Spain the best.
I had posted the original message to this group by mistake. In any case,
the Balkans, usually understood to include Albania, Croatia, Macedonia,
Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Bulgaria are at the opposite
ends of Europe from the Baltics, that is to say, Estonia, Latvia, and
Lithuania.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:18 EST 2005
Article: 1066692 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news3.google.com!news2.volia.net!news.germany.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:27:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128886042 20110 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 19:27:22 GMT)
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Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123469 alt.revisionism:1066692
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
<deletions>
> >
> > Oh yeah – look what Golman has linked SCB with: alt.revisionism
>
> That was his birthplace. Not only did he originate there – but he also
> created his own extremist antagonists for strawmen exercises.
Prove it! I have been posting to soc.culture.baltics for more than ten
years, but to alt.revisionism no more than six years. So you are lying
again, nejęga. And, unlike you, sűds-sniffer, I am not a master of
multiple identities, pseudonymity, and strawman exercises.
> Some of
> those alter-egos that he accidentally posted into SCB were quite nasty.
> Hole-man is quite the nasty little shmuck.
ROTFLOL! Is “nasty little shmuck” the best you can do? You anti-Baltic,
arrogant, bandwidth-wasting, brain-addled, illingual, iniquitous,
innumerate, lettozhirinovskian, mendacious, pseudonymous, sűds-sniffing,
and vile, buffoon, klaun, and nejęga!
> I wish you had taken this stance re Hole-man years ago. Drop by SCB
> when you can.
>
> > That says everything about his mindset. He is a fraud and a sham.
> > Yuk! No more will my eyes be offended by his lies.
Our Montréal-resident friend blames the messenger for the message. I
translated and shared an excerpt from a book written by a well-known but
controversial Finnish historian, Hannu Rautkallio, and receive accusations
of lying and being a nasty little shmuck on the Kremlin’s payroll in
return.
<deletions>
\EH
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:18 EST 2005
Article: 1066695 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:40:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128886833 20223 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 19:40:33 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2005 19:40:33 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123470 alt.revisionism:1066695
In article <[email protected]>,
“[email protected]” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
> What perfect timing! I’m leaving for Lithuania shortly and I was
> planning on dropping out of SCB anyway. What better time than now,
> when Golman is starting another wave of offensive anti-Baltic garbage.
Offensive? Anti-Baltic? Garbagious? The issues raised in the posted text
have to be dealt with by anyone with a genuine interest in Baltic history.
> Gee, the Kremlin had to come up with something since they’ve been doing
> so badly in the PR stakes recently, so they pay Golman to smear more
> filth.
Filth? The easy way out is to depict the people of the Baltic countries as
perpetual victims.
> Hapless SCB readers will now be bombarded with his distortions
> and tendentious translations for months and months to come. Well, I
> won’t be reading it.
My translation is accurate. The problem is that we tend to be so appalled
at the atrocities committed during the Soviet occupation of the Baltics
that we forget or at least pussyfoot around the atrocities committed
during the Nazi occupation.
> Of all the books Golman could have translated from Finnish (eg one on
> Soviet war crimes, or just plain Baltic linguistics or ethnology) he
> has to chose this one instead. Fui.
I have been translating Prof. Rautkallio’s material for more than fifteen
years. His viewpoints are often controversial, but they deserve an
audience. Rautkallio’s book deals with the Soviet role in the Holocaust.
The Soviet Union did little to rescue Jews, although it published
propaganda to make things look otherwise, and Stalin was not above
liquidating Jews or the “crime” of being Jews when it suited his purposes.
I can’t post the entire book here, but Rautkallio does a credible job of
demonstrating that the Holocaust is a far more complex historical
phenomenon than it is usually considered to be. We see Finnish Jews being
awarded Iron Crosses by the Nazi regime as well as Bulgaria defying German
pressue and protecting its Jews but allowing its army to deport Jews in
occupied Thrace to death camps.
> SCB has become a cesspit and I’m
> not a cesspit dweller. Wallow in the filth without me. I’m off to
> greener pastures – literally as well as metaphorically.
Have a nice trip. But remember that there is no “received” version of
Baltic history.
> Oh yeah – look what Golman has linked SCB with: alt.revisionism
Right. Some people in alt.revisionism, a forum for Holocaust deniers *and*
their opponents*, are able to discuss the Holocaust with objectivity.
> That says everything about his mindset. He is a fraud and a sham.
> Yuk! No more will my eyes be offended by his lies.
No lies, that’s Uno Hu[i]’s monopoly. Rather, an attempt to get to the
multifaceted truth.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:18 EST 2005
Article: 1066696 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.germany.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:46:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128887170 20417 128.214.90.198 (9 Oct 2005 19:46:10 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2005 19:46:10 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123471 alt.revisionism:1066696
In article <[email protected]>,
“[email protected]” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
> What perfect timing! I’m leaving for Lithuania shortly and I was
> planning on dropping out of SCB anyway. What better time than now,
> when Golman is starting another wave of offensive anti-Baltic garbage.
Offensive? Anti-Baltic? Garbagious? The issues raised in the posted text
have to be dealt with by anyone with a genuine interest in Baltic history.
> Gee, the Kremlin had to come up with something since they’ve been doing
> so badly in the PR stakes recently, so they pay Golman to smear more
> filth.
Filth? The easy way out is to depict the people of the Baltic countries as
perpetual victims.
> Hapless SCB readers will now be bombarded with his distortions
> and tendentious translations for months and months to come. Well, I
> won’t be reading it.
My translation is accurate. The problem is that we tend to be so appalled
at the atrocities committed during the Soviet occupation of the Baltics
that we forget or at least pussyfoot around the atrocities committed
during the Nazi occupation.
> Of all the books Golman could have translated from Finnish (eg one on
> Soviet war crimes, or just plain Baltic linguistics or ethnology) he
> has to chose this one instead. Fui.
I have been translating Prof. Rautkallio’s material for more than fifteen
years. His viewpoints are often controversial, but they deserve an
audience. Rautkallio’s book deals with the Soviet role in the Holocaust.
The Soviet Union, given its size and large Jewish population, did little
to rescue Jews from the Nazis, although it published propaganda to make
things look otherwise, and Stalin was not above liquidating Jews lor
people of other ethnicities for the “crime” of being Jews or members of
their ethnicity when it suited his purposes. I can’t post the translation
of the entire book here, but Rautkallio does a credible job of
demonstrating that the Holocaust is a far more complex historical
phenomenon than it is usually considered to be. We see Finnish Jews being
awarded Iron Crosses by the Nazi regime as well as Bulgaria defying German
pressue and protecting its Jews but allowing its army to deport Jews in
occupied Thrace to German-run death camps.
> SCB has become a cesspit and I’m
> not a cesspit dweller. Wallow in the filth without me. I’m off to
> greener pastures – literally as well as metaphorically.
Have a nice trip. But remember that there is no “received” version of
Baltic history.
> Oh yeah – look what Golman has linked SCB with: alt.revisionism
Right. Some people in alt.revisionism, a forum for Holocaust deniers *and*
their opponents*, are able to discuss the Holocaust with objectivity.
> That says everything about his mindset. He is a fraud and a sham.
> Yuk! No more will my eyes be offended by his lies.
No lies, that’s Uno Hu[i]’s monopoly. Rather, an attempt to get to the
multifaceted truth.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:19 EST 2005
Article: 1066734 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.germany.com!newsfeed3.funet.fi!193.166.3.21.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 04:41:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128908511 26422 128.214.90.198 (10 Oct 2005 01:41:51 GMT)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2005 01:41:51 GMT
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Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123481 alt.revisionism:1066734
In article <[email protected]>,
“martin” <[email protected]> wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > <deletions>
> > > >
> > > > Oh yeah – look what Golman has linked SCB with: alt.revisionism
> > >
> > > That was his birthplace. Not only did he originate there – but he also
> > > created his own extremist antagonists for strawmen exercises.
> >
> > Prove it! I have been posting to soc.culture.baltics for more than ten
> > years, but to alt.revisionism no more than six years. So you are lying
> > again, nej=EAga. And, unlike you, s=FBds-sniffer, I am not a master of
> > multiple identities, pseudonymity, and strawman exercises.
>
> Eugene, do you deny posting to alt.revisionism and other groups under
> the identity “Jew Watcher” and “I. M. White”?
Yes. One or two times I have posted from public computers that had
evidently been used by people who were posting under such an identity, and
there have also been a few cases of people forging posts under my name.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:19 EST 2005
Article: 1066784 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:39:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128922774 29881 128.214.90.198 (10 Oct 2005 05:39:34 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2005 05:39:34 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123497 alt.revisionism:1066784
In article <[email protected]>,
“martin” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
> >
> > Yes. One or two times I have posted from public computers that had
> > evidently been used by people who were posting under such an identity,
>
> That’s really bad luck Eugene. Helsinki must be crawling with Ayran
> holocaust deniers, because it seems that on the rare occasions that you
> do use a random public computer, it just happened to have been
> previously used by either “Jew Watcher” or “I. M. White”. Better take
> more care in the future.
It has been like two or three times in ten years. I think that some of the
postings that people make under such names are intended to be jokes. On
the other hand, few people would post the kind of crap that appears under
such names on a computer that the sende of the message could be traced to.
Public computers allow people to post with complete anonymity.
There are, of course, also cases of people posting stuff under someone
else’s name. It has happened to me a few times.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:41:19 EST 2005
Article: 1066818 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust in the Baltic countries
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:42:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 1128962562 13566 128.214.90.198 (10 Oct 2005 16:42:42 GMT)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2005 16:42:42 GMT
User-Agent: NewsWatcher-X 2.2.3b2
Xref: sn-us soc.culture.baltics:123518 alt.revisionism:1066818
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
> Peteris Cedrin=9A (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > The most fascinating part of your missive. What lies? _What_ lies?
<deletions>
>
> Shut up you babbling klauns. Get back to russkie-land where your
> russkie hoppy dances will be better appreciated.
>
> > Viso gero, /P
>
> All scrapie gyros to you too, russian.
All Greek and testy today, enh nejęga?
\EH
