Documents

Holman Eugene 1-2005

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> There was no systematic planned extermination of Jews by the Nazis.

Yes there was. In every country invaded or allied with Germany, except
Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, and Hungary (until early 1944), the local
Jewish communities were either publicly shot outright, or ghettoized
(along the eastern front) or concentrated in deportation camps (in Western
Europe) and
then either publicly shot (along the eastern front) or deported to be
enslaved and worked to death or, as a rule, killed if they were incapable
of working (in Western Europe). There were a few apparent exceptions. As
far as the “model protectorate” Denmark is concerned, the Danes were able
to negotiate a special deal with the Nazis that Danish Jews would be
treated well, rather than given “special treatment”, at the Theresienstadt
“model concentration camp” to which
those who did not succeed in escaping to Sweden were sent. In Hungary the
local Jews were left in relative peace as long as Hungary fought on
Germany’s side, but were deported and either enslaved or exterminated with
a vengeance once Germany became aware of Hungary’s efforts to extricate
itself from the war. In Finland the local Jews fought along side the
Germans against a common enemy, the USSR, but recently unearthed archival
evidence indicates that the Germans had a contingency plan to arrest and
deport Finnish Jews, and that Finnish Jews, assuming this on the basis of
what they knew about what the Germans where doing to Jews elsewhere, had
contingency plans to escape to Sweden.

> Jews were deported eastward to ghettos and work camps.

Many were. But to take one case study as an illustrative example, the
ghetto in Riga to which many Central European Jews began to be deported
starting in 1942 had first had its original inhabitants killed in the
Rumbula massacre that took place on November 30 and December 8, 1941 (for
details, see
www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf). Some Central European Jews
deported to Latvia also wound up at the Salaspils concentration camp, a
strict regime camp most of whose internees were worked to death. Although
tens of thousands of Central European Jews were deported to ghettos and
camps in Latvia, no more than 1,000 were alive when the war there ended in
the fall of 1944 (for details, see
http://www.logon.org/_domain/holocaustrevealed.org/Latvia/Latvian_Holocaust.htm).

> Many of these
> Jews, maybe most, died from diseases, malnutrition and maltreatment.

Which, of course, would in itself qualify as genocide. If a country is
going to intern people and it treats them so badly that “many…maybe
most” die, then it is guilty of mass murder. If it had interned them
solely because of their ethnicity and for no other reason, then that mass
murder is genocide. QED.

> As Arthur R. Butz observed:
> ‘The simplest valid reason for being skeptical about the
> extermination claim is also the simplest conceivable reason; at the end
> of the war they were still there.’

The overwhelming majority of the Jews who were still alive on German
occupied territory at the end of the war were strong, able-bodied men, a
disproportionate number of them recently interned Hungarian Jews. Once
again, let’s take a case study, the eight Jews who had hidden in the
Amsterdam attic immortalized in Anne Frank’s diary were only discovered
and arrested on August 4, 1944. Of them, only Otto Frank, Anne’s father,
survived the war. Considering that entire Jewish communities were
interned, the lack of elderly people, infants, and pre-adolescent children
as well as the disproportionate number of young and middle-aged men in the
photographs of concentration camp liberations is striking. See e.g.
http://www.webencyclo.com/dossiers/anciens/contenu/images/antisemitisme/auschwitz.jpg,
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs2/78808.gif,
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/OldPhotos/dachau01.jpg. The Protocol of the
Wannsee Conference calculates that as of January 1942 there were still
more than 11,000,000 people defined by the Nazis as Jews in Europe to be
dealt with within the framework of the Final Solution
(http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanngerm.html). Most estimates
of the number of Holocaust victims range between 5 and 6 million, so it is
obvious that millions of European Jews survived the Holocaust one way or
another. After all, in addition to killing Jews the Nazis were also trying
to win an all-fronts war and they needed all of the manpower that they
could get, including the input from Jewish concentration camp slave labor.

>
> There was literally an exodus of Jews from eastern Europe after the
> war.

Many Eastern European Jews who survived the war tried to emigrate,
something that is hardly surprising given the societal chaos, rampant
anti-Semitism, and the possibility open to Jews to emigrate to Israel or
North America.

> Hundreds of thousands shipped out to the US, Israel and other
> overseas countries.

But many more stayed put. Although the number of Jews in countries such as
Poland, Bulgaria, and Lithuania, all of which once had large Jewish
minorities is quite small today, there are large and thriving Jewish
communities in Hungary and Russia.

> And they are still at it, 200,000 presently going
> to Germany, by all places!(can anyone believe it?).

Today’s Germany is not Hitler’s Germany. And the Holocaust did not have as
great an impact on German Jews, more than half of whom survived the war,
as it had on the Jews of countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, Poland,
Ukraine, Belarus, or Hungary, where the overwhelming majority of Jews were
killed by the Nazis, sometimes with the assistance of local collaborators.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:44 EST 2005
Article: 1039476 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Szaki Still as Stupid as Ever
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:12:29 +0300
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From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:44 EST 2005
Article: 1039512 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:17:54 +0300
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In article <42664f33$1_[email protected]>, “Allan Jones”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Well – There’s a credibile source of evidence
> There is no SCIENTIFIC evidence to support your claim. Did you miss that
> word? Expect so. Heresay, eye witness testimony etc. do not constitute
> SCIENTIFIC evidence. OK?

You do not seem to understand what scientific means. There are natural
sciences, such as chemistry, physics, and phonetics, but there are also
social sciences, such as demographics, history, and sociolinguistics. In
the western intellectual tradition, all of them share the same methods of
fact gathering and classification, hypothesis posing, theory construction,
and explanation. The natural sciences work with simpler and data and are
more precise than the social sciences, which have to take the
unpredictability of human behavior into account, but they share with them
the same overall heuristic and epistemological objectives: to construct
plausible explanations for the sets of facts that are their specific
object of interest.

The natural sciences, particularly chemistry and archeology, have been
used to support evidence from other sources that the Nazis killed large
numbers of people by a variety of means, including gas chambers and mass
shootings in already dug graves. Demography, also a science, analyzes
information about population gains and losses, and the reasons for them.
We know, for example, that Lithuania’s Jewish population fell from a
figure on the order of magnitude of 150,000 before the war to virtually
nothing afterwards. Military history, also a science, analyzes the
documents generated by the Einsatzkommandos and local bureaucracies
concerning the identification, mass shootings, body disposal, and
subsequent confiscations of the movable and immovable property of the Jews
murdered in various killing operations.

If the term ‘scientific’ were to be defined as narrowly as you are
implying that it should, there would be no court decisions based on
testimonial evidence and documents, no bureaucracies, no official records,
and no history, military or otherwise.

To take a specific example, the fate of the Jews of Budapest is documented
in diplomatic correspondence between the German and the Hungarian
authorities, records taken by Adolf Eichmann to deport, and Swedish
diplomat Raoul Wallenberg to rescue, the Jews of Hungary during the summer
of 1944, by the actions taken by diplomats of other countries to rescue
Hungarian Jews, the oral history of the tens of thousands of people
rescued by Wallenberg’s actions, the testimony of tens of thousands more
who wound up being deported to Auschwitz and Mauthausen and survived, but
lost their families and relatives there, as well as by the appeal made to
the Hungarian government by the Swedish King to halt the deportations of
the Jews, and the positive response to the appeal of the Hungarian
authorities. This mass of evidence can be classified, analyzed, and used
to reconstruct many of the events that characterized the Holocaust in
Hungary. But it takes training in the discipline of history to be able to
do this. In English we do not always feel comfortable using the word
‘science’ to characterize history, but in most European languages the word
for science, Wissenschaft in German, vetenskap in Swedish, tiede in
Finnish, nauka in Russian, etc., are applied to disciplines such as
history that use systematic and verifiable methods to produce scientific
information. See
http://strongbrains.com/science/history/overview/default.htm for further
discussion on this theme

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:44 EST 2005
Article: 1039515 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:33:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down the
chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:44 EST 2005
Article: 1039517 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:59:43 +0300
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In article <42664f33$1_[email protected]>, “Allan Jones”
<[email protected]> wrote:

You do not seem to understand what scientific means. There are natural
sciences, such as chemistry, physics, and phonetics, but there are also
social sciences, such as demographics, history, and sociolinguistics. In
the western intellectual tradition, all of them share the same methods of
fact gathering and classification, hypothesis posing, theory construction,
reasoning, and explanation. The natural sciences work with simpler and
more predictable data and are thus more precise than the social sciences,
which have to take the unpredictability of human behavior into account,
but they share with them the same overall heuristic and epistemological
objectives: to construct
plausible and logically consistent accounts of and explanations for the
sets of facts that are their specific object of interest.

The natural sciences, particularly analytical and physical chemistry and
archeology, have been used to support evidence from other sources that the
Nazis killed large numbers of people by a variety of means, including gas
chambers and mass shootings in already dug graves. Demography, also a
science, analyzes information about population gains and losses, and the
reasons for them. We know, for example, that Lithuania’s Jewish population
fell from a figure on the order of magnitude of 150,000 before the war to
virtually nothing afterwards. Military history, also a science, analyzes
the documents generated by the Einsatzkommandos and local bureaucracies
concerning the identification, mass shootings, body disposal, and
subsequent confiscations of the movable and immovable property of the Jews
murdered in various killing operations.

To take a specific example, the fate of the Jews of Budapest is documented
in diplomatic correspondence between the German and the Hungarian
authorities, records taken by Adolf Eichmann to deport, and by the Swedish
diplomat Raoul Wallenberg to rescue, the Jews of Hungary during the summer
of 1944, by the actions taken by diplomats of other countries to rescue
Hungarian Jews, the oral history of the tens of thousands of people
rescued by Wallenberg’s actions, the testimony of tens of thousands more
who wound up being deported to Auschwitz and Mauthausen and survived, but
lost their families and relatives there, as well as by the appeal made to
the Hungarian government by the Swedish King to halt the deportations of
the Jews, and the positive response to this appeal of the Hungarian
authorities. This mass of evidence can be classified, analyzed, and used
to reconstruct many of the events that characterized the Holocaust in
Hungary. But it takes training in the discipline of history to be able to
do this. In English we do not always feel comfortable using the word
‘science’ to characterize history, but in most European languages the word
for science, Wissenschaft in German, vetenskap in Swedish, tiede in
Finnish, nauka in Russian, etc., is applied to disciplines such as
history that use systematic and verifiable methods to produce scientific
information. See
http://strongbrains.com/science/history/overview/default.htm for further
discussion on this theme

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:45 EST 2005
Article: 1039534 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:33:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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References: <holman-20040517332[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, Zulu <[email protected]> wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down the
> > chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
> > consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
> > outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
> > SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
> > to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:
> >
> > http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
> >
>
> So, that “extermination plan” isn’t be supposed to have been SECRET anymore?

It was secret in the sense that orders for it were evidently issued orally
to a few of Hitler’s most trusted officials, with no written record being
kept. There is nothing unusual about that, given how Hitler in most
uncharacteristic style, had been forced to backtrack on the basis of the
first order he had signed for mass-murder, his authorization for
euthanasia within the framework of the T-4 program.

On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
as the Arājs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
countryside and smaller towns. The liquidations of the ghettos in the
larger cities were also done in broad daylight with many episodes of
lethal violence both within the ghetto and along the route from the ghetto
to the killing site. On both November 30 and December 8, 1941 hundreds of
corpses of the people who had tried to escape or been unable to keep up
with the others and thus been shot in cold blood by the guards or police
lined the 10 kilometer-long route along Moscow Road from central Riga to
the Rumbula forest. As the day went by, their bodies were picked up,
loaded onto carts, and dumped, once again quite publicly, into a mass
grave at the Jewish cemetery in central Riga. Since news of the massacre
was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow, it
is obvious that nothing was being done at this initial stage to keep its
implementation a secret. Similar scenes with variations due to local
circumstances took place along the eastern front all the way from Estonia
to the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine. The fact that several of the worst of
these mass murders were organized and implemented by SS-Obergruppenführer
Friedrich Jeckeln, who even devised a methodology, Sardinenpackung that
enabled him and his fifty-man staff to kill people and dispose of their
bodies at a rate of 1,500 an hour, indicates that there was a plan
coordinated and financed from Berlin and relying on the feedback from
debriefings after each successful mass-murder to fine-tune its
methodology.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:45 EST 2005
Article: 1039710 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:00:20 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg

Yes. I’ve visited there twice. Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave
every day.

> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.

The first article was a conference presentation. Go to chapter 8 of the
same author’s *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for the more meticulous
documentation.

>
> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you. It was the subject of quite a splendid
> Soviet trial I believe.

Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being the
1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was presented
against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including Jahnke,
Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public mass
murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:45 EST 2005
Article: 1039736 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:07:37 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg

Yes, although I the number of people buried there is not quite that high.
The ghetto was liquidated on two different days, first November 30, then
December 8. On both days the inhabitants of the ghetto were awakened at
six o’clock by the Germans and told to assemble in courtyards. Hundreds of
people were shot at the ghetto in cold blood for refusing to obey these
orders or for other forms of insubordination. Hundreds of other people
were shot along the ten kilometer route to the killing site for trying to
escape or failing to keep up. All of the bodies of the people shot in the
ghetto and along Moscow Road were collected on both days, carted to the
ghetto, and dumped into the pit in the old Jewish cemetery that the
Germans had created there using dynamite. The headstone was added later.
I’ve visited the former ghetto and old Jewish cemetery in Riga twice.
Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave every day by people whose loved
ones were buried there more than sixty years ago. A few blocks away on
Gogol Street are the ruins of the Great Choral Synagogue, torched with 300
people inside on July 4, 1941 with the encouragement of the Nazi occupiers
(http://www.rumbula.org/VirtualTours/jewish_riga_photo9.htm).

> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.

That article was a conference presentation given on the 60th anniversary
of the Rumbula massacre and thus not heavily crossreferenced. Go to
chapter 8 of the same author’s *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for more meticulous
documentation of the logististics and bureaucracy required to assemble
and kill 25,000 people, and then dispose of their property and assets.

> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you.

> It was the subject of quite a splendid Soviet trial I believe.

It was, but far from splendid. For easily understood reasons, the Soviet
court in Riga was not sympathetic in early 1946 to captured Nazi
mass-murderer Friedrich Jeckeln and his closest associates. He was tried
more for being a high-level Nazi leader and police head than specifically
for the horrible crimes that he organized and implemented on Soviet
territory, see http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=362. For Jeckeln’s
testimony, see
https://nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/jeckeln.html.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:45 EST 2005
Article: 1040475 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:03:23 +0300
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> I’m going from memory here, but I believe the storytellers claim that
> the Jewish victims at Rumbula were killed by Latvians using Russian
> weapons.

Don’t go from memory if you have better sources available:

On the weapons used:

Source: http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf

<quote>
<deletions>
8) Russian submachine guns were used, because the clip had fifty bullets
and could be set on single shots [12];
********************
[12] Landgericht Hamburg: Jahnke¹s Trial Records, deposition of
Herbert, Georg, Wolfgang, Paul Degenhart. Degenhart is the main source for
the weapons used. Zingler in his testimony says that he had a Finnish
weapon, but, unless it could use the same ammunition as the Russian ones,
I think he is wrong. Deposition of Zingler, p. 6. Also see Arājs Trial
Records, p. 2133 a.
<deletions>
</quote>

On the killers:
<quote>
<deletions>
Jeckeln ordered his body guard, consisting of ten to twelve men, to do the
killing in the pits. Among them Endl, Lüschen, and Wedekind had done this
for Jeckeln before. To enlarge the killer team and obtain some reserves,
he asked the leader of his drivers’ commando, Oberführer Johannes Zingler,
to participate in the executions. Jeckeln reminded Zingler of his recent
demotion and told him that he would prove himself by participating in the
killings. Zingler answered that he would prefer to go the front to prove
his worth. Jeckeln replied to Zingler that if he wanted to see his family,
he should obey the order. ³I knew what he could do to me² (Ich würde ihn
ja kennen), Zingler testified in 1961. ³He also pointed out to me that I
was not a regular soldier with him, but rather one who had something to
prove.²[19] Zingler agreed to participate.
Hoping to find some reserves for the killing team, Jeckeln summoned his
twelve-man detail of drivers to his Rīga Ritterhaus headquarters and
revealed to them that he needed an execution commando
(Erschiessungskommando). ³He made them understand that he had some people
who had already done something like that, but he needed some additional
men to lighten the load of the others. He asked for volunteers,
immediately adding, however, that he would not think badly of them if they
did not sign up because the job was unpleasant.²[20] None of the drivers
volunteered.[21]

Jeckeln did not consider Latvians for the assignment. First, as an SS man
he had to confront the German innere Schweinehund, and, further, the
resident German SD men did not recommend the Latvians. Paul Botor, a
transport officer with the KdS in Rīga, remembered a rumor that circulated
among the SD, that the Latvians were killing too slowly. ³The matter,²
Botor testified, ³was communicated to SS and Police Leader Jeckeln.
Jeckeln wanted to show with his marksmen that he could do better.²[22]

********************
[19] Arājs Trial Records, deposition of Zingler, p. 2133 a. Also see
Landgerich Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al., p. 61.
[20] Landgericht Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al. pp. 62-63.
[21] Jeckeln testified at his trial that the killing was done by ten to
twelve men. In other words, he did not find the reserves that he was
seeking.
[22] Arājs Trial Records, deposition of Botor, 26 October 1977, pp. 9227-28.

< I don’t think any serious search for graves was ever made at
> Rumbula.

You don’t *think*?

Source: ibid.

<quote>
<deletions>
Reclaiming of Rumbula

Under the second Soviet domination of Latvia, Jewish culture was
suppressed.[96] Rumbula was not an event that the Soviets wanted to
commemorate. Up to 1960, the Rumbula grounds were completely neglected and
overgrown. Only in 1961 did young Jews of Rīga begin a search for the
location of Rumbula.[97] They found burned bones and other remains from
the massacre.[98] The grounds were in an especially disorderly shape
because in 1944 the Nazis had partly disinterred the victims to burn them.

******************
[96] Leonard Schroeter, The Last Exodus (New York: Universe Books,
1974), p. 61. This fact is corroborated by numerous other ex-Soviet
sources. Nora Levin, The Jews in the Soviet Union since 1917. Paradox of
Survival. Vol. II (New York: New York University Press, 1988), pp. 599-14;
Alla Rusinek, Like a Song. Like a Dream: A Soviet Girl’s Quest for Freedom
(New York: Scribners, 1973), pp. 251-56; Vladimir Lazaris, ³The Saga of
Jewish Samizdat,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 9, No. 1 (1979); David
Garber, ²Choir and Drama in Rīga,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 4, No. 1
(1974), pp. 39-44; Mordecai Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli: A First Hand
Account,² Jewish Frontier, June 1971, pp. 10-19.
[97] Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli,² gives the most detailed
description of the Rumbula episode. Schroeter, The Last Exodus, bases his
version of an interview with Leah Bliner, a Rīga Zionist activist.
[98] Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli.²

> Some people just started putting up monuments claiming
> thousands of Jews were killed and buried in mass graves. It’s a
> typical technique of the German-hating holocaust promoters.

That’s a pretty simplistic hypothesis.

Ghettoizing the Jews of Riga was a complex task, involving public
announcements, the construction of a ghetto, moving non-Jews out of the
ghetto area and Jews into it. Since more than 20,000 people were involved,
this generated vast amounts of paper work.

Liquidating the ghetto in two stages, on November 30 and December 8, 1941,
resulted in the shooting of hundreds of people in the ghetto on each day,
as well as of hundreds more people along the road from the ghetto to the
killing site. These killings were done in public in broad daylight and are
well documented, you can even see photgrpahs of them at the Museum of the
Occupation of Latvia
[http://www.occupationmuseum.lv/eng/about_us/welcome.html].

> But the claims that Russian weapons were used suggests, at least to me,
> that the Jewish Bolsheviks might have massacred some Latvians at
> Rumbula, just as they mass murdered the Polish intelligentsia at Katyn.

The Soviets had recently been chased out of Latvia, but their matériel
remained. Hardly surprising. Mainstream historians, whether Latvian,
German, or Russian, agree that the Rumbula massacre was carried out by the
Nazis under the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln.
Additional corroberation is provided by the fact that only after the
inhabitants of the Riga ghetto had been liquidated did large scale
deportations of Central European Jews to Latvia begin in january, 1942.
They were, of course, housed in the ghetto or in concentration camps such
as Salaspils.

> One popular way the Bolsheviks used to avoid being accused of war
> crimes was to accuse the Germans first. An archeological search at
> Rumbula might produce some interesting results.

The problem is that the Germans were quite proud of the Rumbula massacre.
One reason that Jeckeln had been called in to do the job was to
demonstrate that Stahlecker had not been doing his best with respect to
implementing the Führerbefehl:

Source: ibid.

<quote>
<deletions>
The Arrival of Jeckeln
By October 1941 Stahlecker had only been able to kill about 30,000 of the
66,000 Jews that the Germans had trapped in Latvia. The reasons for
Stahlecker’s failure to fulfill the fundamental orders are complex, but
they certainly include his preoccupation with Leningrad,[2] the failure
of Latvians to kill fast enough, and the early arrival of the Hinrich
Lohse’s civilian government in Latvia. Lohse was not obligated to carry
out the Führer Befehl; his orders from Alfred Rosenberg were to raise the
productivity of the Ostland and to supply the army with daily necessities
and hardware. Lohse’s program for the Jews was to drive them into the
ghettos, expropriate their property, and exploit their labor. Also
Hans-Adolf Prützman, the High commander of SS and the Police (HSSPF) in
the Baltic and Belarus, who, was in charge of the Jews after Stahlecker
moved east, played a passive role.[3]

***************
[2] According to his aide Dr. Emil Finnberg, Stahlecker was after a
Ritterkreutz, which he could only earn by participation in battles (Aråjs
Trial Records, deposition, 13 January 1960, SB I, p. 43).
[3] The role of Hans-Adolf Prützman, who died a suicide, has not been
studied or explained.
<deletions>
</quote>

You evidently are willing to concede that there was a massacre at Rumbula,
but suspect that the Soviets carried it out.

This alternative theory raises some interesting questions:

1. The Soviets were chased out of Latvia during the summer of 1941, but
the Rumbula massacre only took place during the early winter, on November
30 and December 8.
2. The victims of the Rumbula massacre were the inhabitants of the Riga
ghetto. The laws requiring the Jews of Riga to be registered and move to
the gheto were promlugated by the Nazis during the fall of 1941, long
after the Soviets had left.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the man who organized the
massacre, had a fifty-man staff that worked in Riga for more than two
months organizing, and implementing the massacre, and then cleaning up,
storing, sorting, and either selling or shipping back to Germany the
personal property and assets of 25,000 people. This generated a vast
amount of paperwork, most of which is still in Latvian and German
archives.
4. The Rumbula massacre was the subject of several trials in Germany after
the war. Nobody based his defense on a claim that it never happened or
that the Soviets carried it out.

British Intelligence surreptitiously recorded a conversation in which
Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, whose job it had been to collect valuables
in the pits, discusses Rumbula with fellow German POWs:

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html

<quote>
<deletions>
TRANSLATION

BRUNS: As soon as I heard those Jews were to be shot on Friday I went to a
21-year old boy and said that they had made themselves very useful in the
area under my command, besides which the Army MT park had employed 1500
and the ‘Heeresgruppe’ 800 women to make underclothes of the stores we
captured in RIGA; besides which about 1200 women in the neighbourhood of
RIGA were turning millions of captured sheepskins into articles we
urgently required: ear-protectors, fur caps, fur waistcoats, etc. Nothing
had been provided, as of course the Russian campaign was known to have
come to a victorious end in October 1941! In short, all those women were
employed in a useful capacity. I tried to save them. I told that fellow
ALTENMEYER(?) whose name I shall always remember and who will be added to
the list of war criminals: “Listen to me, they represent valuable
man-power!” ‘Do you call Jews valuable human beings, sir?” I said: “Listen
to me properly, I said valuable man-power’. I didn’t mention their value
as human beings.” He said: “Well, they’re to be shot in accordance with
the FÜHRER’s orders ! I said: “FÜHRER’s orders?” “Yes”, whereupon he
showed me his orders. This happened at SKIOTAWA(?), 8 km. from RIGA,
between SIAULAI and JELGAVA, where 5000 BERLIN Jews were suddenly taken
off the train and shot. I didn’t see that myself, but what happened at
SKIOTAWA(?) – to cut a long story short, I argued with the fellow and
telephoned to the General at HQ, to JAKOBS and ABERGER (?), and to a Dr.
SCHULTZ who was attached to the Engineer General, on behalf of these
people; I told him: “Granting that the Jews have committed a crime against
the other peoples of the world, at least let them do the drudgery; send
them to throw earth on the roads to prevent our heavy lorries skidding,”
“Then I’d have to feed them!” I said: “The little amount of food they
receive, let’s assume 2 million Jews – they got 125 gr. of bread a day –
if we can’t even manage that, the sooner we end the war the better.” Then
I telephoned, thinking it would take some time. At any rate on Sunday
morning I heard that they

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– 2 –

BRUNS: had already started on it. The Ghetto was cleared and they were
told: “You’re being transferred: take along your essential things.”
Incidentally it was a happy release for those people, as their life in the
Ghetto was a martyrdom. I wouldn’t believe it and drove there, to have a
look.

? : Everyone abroad knew about it; only we Germans were kept in ignorance.

BRUNS: I’ll tell you something: some of the details may have been
correct, but it was remarkable that the firing squad detailed that morning
– six men with tommy-guns were posted at each pit; the pits were 24 m in
length and 3 m in breadth – they had to lie down like sardines in a tin,
with their heads in the centre. Above there were six men with tommy-guns
who gave them the coup de gr?ce. When I arrived those pits were so full
that the living had to lie down on top of the dead; then they were shot
and, in order to save room, they had to lie down neatly in layers. Before
this, however, they were stripped of everything at one of the stations –
here at the edge of the wood were the three pits they used that Sunday and
here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step – a
queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on.
About here they had to hand over their jewellery and suitcases. All good
stuff was put into the suit-cases and the remainder thrown on a heap. This
was to serve as clothing for our suffering population – and then a little
further on they had to undress and, 500 m in front of the wood, strip
completely; they were only permitted to keep on a chemise or knickers.
They were all women and small two year-old children. Then all those
cynical remarks! If only I had seen those tommy-gunners, who were relieved
every hour – because of over-exertion, carry out their task with distaste,
but no, nasty remarks like: “Here comes a Jewish beauty!” I can still see
it all in my memory: a pretty woman in a flame-coloured chemise. Talk
about keeping the race pure: at RIGA they first slept with them and then
shot them to prevent them from talking. Then I sent two officers out
there, one of whom is still alive, because I wanted eye-witnesses. ” I
didn’t tell them what was going on, but said: “Go out to the forest of
SKIOTAWA(?), see what’s up there and send me a report.” I added a
memorandum to their report and took it to JAKOBS myself. He said: “I have
already two complaints sent me by Engineer ‘Bataillone’ from the UKRAINE.”
There they shot them on the brink of large crevices and let them fall down
into them; they nearly had an epidemic of plague, at any rate a
pestilential smell. They thought they could break off the edges with
picks, thus burying them. That loess there was so hard that two Engineer
‘Bataillone’ were required to dynamite the edges; those ‘Battaillone’
complained. JAKOBS had received that complaint. He said: “We didn’t quite
know how to tell the FÜHRER . We’d better do it through CANARIS.” CANARIS
had the unsavoury task of waiting for the favourable moment to give the
FÜHRER certain gentle hints. A fortnight later I visited the
Oberbürgermeister or whatever he was called then, concerning some other
business. ALTENMEYER(?) triumphantly showed me: “Here is an order, just
issued, prohibiting mass-shootings on that scale from taking place in
future. They are to be carried out more discreetly.” From warnings given
me recently I knew that I was receiving still more attentions from spies.

? : A wonder you’re still alive.

BRUNS: At GÖTTINGEN, I expected to be arrested every day.
<deletions>
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:46 EST 2005
Article: 1040480 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
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In article <161i61[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:20:48 +0300, [email protected] (Eugene
> Holman) wrote:
>
> >Has anyone ever done conducted a scientifically controlled study of the
> >sites of the alleged San Quentin gas chamber, utilising anything like
> >acceptable scientific methodology? In any case, you are wrong.
>
> Why should they? It was a gas chamber designed to be a gas chamber.
> There is documentation to verify its use, including autopsy reports.
> Your point is not taken.

It was a gas chamber designed to be a *penal gas chamber*, and a certain
amount of documentation to verify its use is necessary. Were that
documentation to disappear, however, how could it be proven that it was
indeed a gas chamber?

The Nazi gas chambers were *not* built as penal gas chambers, but rather
as covert, innocuous looking structures where unsuspecting people could be
gassed and which would leave a minumum of evidence. It is quite consistent
that there is little documentation, and it would be quite absurd if
autopsies had been carried out, thus generating tell-tale evidence..

> >Leuchter’s report was neither scientifically controlled nor an
> >instantiation of acceptable scientific methodology.
>
> Well, bubba, that’s a big statement I don’t think you are prepared
> (or qualified) to address.

I am both prepared and qualified, having studied analytical chemistry and
worked in the field. I reiterate: Leuchter’s report was neither
scientifically controlled nor an instantiation of acceptable scientific
methodology.

> > His single “control”
> >sample was taken from a visibly blue stained area in a room where the blue
> >staining on the walls and ceiling was irregular.
>
> Perhaps you can tell us about the location he *should have* sampled.

There is nothing wrong with taking a sample from a visibly blue stained
area, but there is something *very* wrong about selecting this as the
*only* sample. The walls of the delousing chambers are not uniformly
stained, but rather have a patterns of blue splotches and unstained areas.
If he had been honest, Leuchter would have taken samples in the delousing
chamber from places that were visibly deeply blue stained, slightly blue
stained, and unstained. By taking only a single sample from a deeply blue
stained area Leuchter “stacked the deck”.

> > His sampling technique in
> >the field, as well as the analytical procedure used by the lab to which he
> >entrusted the samples for the final analsis, were methodologically
> >unacceptable and injected uncontrolled amounts of extraneous material into
> >his samples.
>
> Please comment, in your own words, on what field sampling tecniques
> “were methodologically unacceptable.”

The cyanide compounds would have formed on the surface of the walls, for
which reason scraping samples should have been taken. Leuchter took bulk
samples, thus contaminating the material from the surface of the wall with
material from behind it. The laboratory was not properly informed about
the reason the analysis was to be carried out, and they thus assumed that
they were to test the entire sample and used a procedure that involved
taking a sample from a sample and crushing it. An analogy would be trying
to analyze the grit under a fingernail by putting an entire hand into a
blender and analyzing the resulting pulp.

> I’d also like to know why you disagree with the “analytical procedure”
> used by Alpha Labs.

Source: http://www.njjewishnews.com/issues/1_27_00/cj/arts/text/story1.html

<quote>
<deletions>
More telling still is the interview with James Roth, the managing
chemist of the lab Leuchter used to analyze the Auschwitz samples. Roth
says that had they known the purpose of the analysis, the lab would
have used a totally different method. He says that because the gas
remains only on a very shallow surface of material– 10 microns (100
microns is the width of a hair) — the lab would not have ground the
material into powder, thereby obscuring whether the actual material
tested had been on the surface They were requested to analyze for the
presence (yes/no) of cyanide compounds, not for the amount (how much). The
numbers they produced to indicate presence were misused by Leuchter, who
presented them as
quantitive data, the data produced by a rigorous quantitative
analytical technique. That is why the Judge Pearson, who certainly has
seen legitimate quantitative analyses before, dismissed Leuchter’s
report as “preposterous” at the Zündel trial.
<deletions>
</quote>

> ============================================

> Also your string of words; “injected uncontrolled amounts of
> extraneous material into his samples” prove you are light in the
> science department.

Read the above. That is precisely what Leuchter did, and this is one of
the reasons that the results of the analysis have no quantitative
significance.

> >To be anything approaching scientific Leuchter would at least
> >have had to take additional control samples from places in the same room
> >that did not show blue staining, as well as samples from places known
> >never to have been exposed to cyanide.
>
> You need to brush up on control sampling, Eugene.

A necessary and sufficient control sample would have been from a place
known never to have been exposed to cyanide. As it is, Leuchter took a
single control sample from a place known to have been exposed to
tremendous amounts of cyanide, but in which the cyanide had left visibly
different kinds of results. It is dishonest to take a single sample from a
dark splotch of Prussian blue, particularly if the same environment has
places with pale splotches and even no splotches. It is Leuchter that
needs to have a brushup.

>
> >Leuchter’s procedural and
> >methodological shortcomings are addressed in the far superior report
> >produced by the IFRC accessible at the URL given above.
>
> Which “far superior report” are you speaking of? The first one that
> confirmed Leuchter’s findings and was swept under the carpet or the
> second pathertic report that didn’t even address the Prussian blue
> staining?

The second one. It did not address the Prussian blue staining because, as
it explains, the presence of Prussian blue is not a reliable indicator of
exposure to cyanide. Instad of looking for Prussian blue, which is
sometimes formed upon exposure to cyanide, the second Cracow report tested
for residual cyanide ions, a far more reliable indicator of exposure to
cyanide.

> NOTE to readers: watch how Eugene pontificates about things he has no
> education to pontificate on.

I have had university level courses in analytical chemistry and have work
experience in laboratories conducting qualitative and quantitative
analysis, thank you very much.

> NOTE to Eugene: I’m going to eat your lunch on this one, pal.
> The Crakow Report (1994 version) is going to bite the dust thanks to
> Philip Mathews encouragement to analyze it.

Doubtful.

> > Leuchter also made
> >the logically fatal blunder of claiming that places that could be
> >fumigated with cyanide could not be used to kill people with cyanide, even
> >though fumigation uses far higher concentrations of cyanide that have to
> >be maintained for far longer than killing people would require.

I note that you fail to comment on this fatal error in Leuchter’s thinking.

Scientifically,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:47 EST 2005
Article: 1040487 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hungary remembers the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:24:03 +0300
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Source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113619390054

<quote>
Hungary remembers the Holocaust

Associated Press, THE JERUSALEM POST
Apr. 16, 2005

Hungarians held a series of memorial events on Saturday honoring the some
550,000 Hungarian Jews killed during the Holocaust.

The occasion marked the 61st anniversary of what is considered the start
of the Holocaust in Hungary, when countryside Jews began to be rounded up
and deported to Nazi concentration camps on April 16, 1944.

Hungary was an ally of Nazi Germany, and deportations of Jews began after
Nazi forces occupied the country. In less than two months, 437,000 Jews
were deported, all but 15,000 to Auschwitz and the nearby Birkenau camp. A
third of Auschwitz victims were Hungarian.

Former prime minister Viktor Orban, whose center-right government
instituted Hungary’s Holocaust Memorial Day in 2000, said at a morning
ceremony that Hungary must never again have dictatorial regimes in which
innocent people are killed because of their origin.

“Everyone in Hungary, regardless of race, age or sex, has the right to
liberty, security and the respect of their human dignity,” Orban said
outside the House of Terror, a museum dedicated to the atrocities
committed by the Nazis and, later, the communist regime in Hungary.

Saturday’s main memorial event will be the “March of the Living,” a
candlelit walk through the Budapest neighborhood which was turned into a
Jewish ghetto near the end of World War II.

Some 70,000 Jews – mainly women, children and the elderly – are thought to
have survived the terrible conditions in the ghetto until it was liberated
by the Soviet army in January 1945.

Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany will inaugurate a new memorial to
Holocaust victims on an embankment of the Danube River.

Sculptor Gyula Pauer’s work consists of 60 pairs of shoes cast in iron,
representing the footwear of some of the many hundreds of victims shot on
the river banks by the Arrow Cross, the Nazis’ Hungarian allies and
henchmen.

At the same time, however, 200 Hungarian far-right supporters, including
skinheads, held a rally Saturday outside the German Embassy in support of
Ernst Zundel and others jailed in Germany for denying the Holocaust.

Organizers – including the Blood and Honor skinhead group, the Hungarian
National Front and Conscience 88 – are hoping to deliver a petition to the
German Embassy in support of Zundel, a white supremacist jailed in
Germany.

German prosecutors accuse Zundel, who was deported to Germany from Canada
in March, of decades of anti-Semitic activities, including repeated
denials of the Holocaust – a crime in Germany.

Embassy officials said no one would be available there to receive the petition.

Gusztav Zoltai, executive director of the Federation of Hungarian Jewish
Communities, said it was shameful that authorities allowed the rally to be
held on Holocaust Memorial Day.

Since it was a Saturday, when Jews observe the Sabbath, they would not be
able to hold a counter-rally, Zoltai told the daily Magyar Hirlap.

</quote>

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:47 EST 2005
Article: 1040491 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.218.7.141!news.glorb.com!newspeer1.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:08:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
>
> Logic and the holocau$t:
>
> <quote>
> >Since news of the massacre
> > was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow,
> </quote>
>
> So we are being told that the news about the terrible massacre of jews
> reached the same day BBC, Radio Sweden and Radio Moscow – already in
> December 1941 !

This is something that can be easily verified by checking archives and
newspapers from that time. Nazi-occupied Riga was a relatively open port
city with consular officials, foreign correspondents, and foreign
intelligence agents. News of the public massacre of the Jews and ruthless
liquidation of the centrally located Riga ghetto on November 30 and
December 8, 1941, was discussed in the local and international media. See
http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/Newsletters/History/4212/ for a link to the
speeches given by members of the Latvian government on the occasion of the
dedication of the mument at Rumbula. Legends and “stories” would hardly
generate responses of this type at such a high level of government.

> – but for some “strange” reason the news did not have
> any effect/impact on the another cca. 4 – 5 000 000 jews – they simply
> sat back and conveniently waited to become the holocau$t victims.

No they didn’t. The Jews in Latvia were literally trapped. Some of them
had managed to escape with the withdrawing Soviet administration and
military, but many of them were anti-Soviet and could not imagine that the
Nazis could be worse than the Soviets had been. The Riga massacre was not
the first public mass murder of Latvian Jews, nor was it the last. During
the fall of 1941 the Jews of Daugavpils had been publicly massacred, and
slightly more than a week after the Rumbala massacre had been completed
the Jews of Liepāja were publicly massacred, thius massacre being
exceptionally well documented in photographs and film (see e.g.
http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/massemordetsovjetiskejoder.asp).
They did not “simply sit back”, but they had few choices, since their
movements were controlled by strict curfews and prohibitions on using
public or private means of transportation.

> how stupid has someone to be to buy such crap ?

The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:47 EST 2005
Article: 1040495 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 90
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
> > On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
> > was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
> > followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
> > as the Arājs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
> > women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
> > countryside and smaller towns.
>
> That ‘s a lie.

Sez you.

Source: http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
<quote>
<deletions>
Most, if not all, other killing actions in Latvia involved a much smaller
number of participants. Jews were driven from the camps to the killing
grounds in groups of twenty to thirty, depending on the size of the
trucks. Upon arrival, the group was quickly killed. This method
required very few guards. One dozen guards would have sufficed. The
killing would be done by twenty to forty men, sometimes fewer. This was
the method used by Arajs commando in the Bikernieki murders and in most
small-town killings. The massacres in Liepaja and Daugavpils fell
somewhere in between, but in general the Bikernieki pattern was followed.
In comparison to Jeckeln’s procedure and the conveyor-belt methods in the
killing camps of Poland, this was a slow process. Nevertheless, the
numbers added up: about one hundred Jews could be killed in one hour. It
would take about one day to kill 1,000 people. The Arajs team, traveling
in its infamous blue bus, on occasion stopped in several places on the
same day. Not all of the small-town Jews were killed by Arajs’ men.
Sometimes the killing in places such Madona, Nereta, and Kuldiga, was done
by local policemen. That was an exception, and in the small towns of
Latvia the complicity of the Latvian policemen consisted of their standing
guard at the detention centers and the killing grounds. Perhaps no more
than 1,000 Latvian policemen, in addition to those in Riga, were involved
in the killings. Assigning responsibility to the local policemen is a
difficult if not impossible problem. The density of the population of
Jews in Latvia differed greatly from district to district. In localities
of high Jewish concentration the participation of Latvians could be
expected to be higher. But, those were also the cities most frequently
visited by the Arajs commando. Nine locations with the highest
concentration of Jews in Latvia accounted for about 85 percent of Latvian
Jews. Consequently, most of Latvia’s policemen had no dealings at all with
Jews. Soviet propaganda has attempted to link the Schutzmannschaft
battalions to the killing of the Jews, but it must be noted that the first
of these battalions were organized only in late 1941 and early 1942, when
the Jews of Latvia were already dead.

> None ever gave any orders, and none ever systematically
> killed “jewish men, women and children”.

Tell that to SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger, the author of the Jäger
Report,
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm .

> SS and locals killed bandits [including jewish bandits] and
> jewish-bolsheviks and commisars. Local people were motivated because
> they wanted to retaliate for jewish-bolshewik crimes committed during
> the soviet occupation.

Source: http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/hiwis.html

<quote>
<deletions>
Latvian Hiwis were organised under the command of Viktors Arajs. By
mid-October 1941 more than 30,000 Latvian Jews had been killed by German
police and their Latvian auxiliaries grouped in Schutzmannschaft
Battalions. One such battalion, the 21st, executed 2,749 Jews on 15 – 17
December, 1941 on a beach near Liepaja (Liebau). The operation was
photographed and filmed by SS-Scharführer Carl Emil Strott (see * below).
In 1942, Latvian police battalions were active in the Ukraine,
Byelorussia and the Generalgouvernement. Among them was the Arajs
Kommando, which trained at a German SD school at Fürstenberg near Berlin.
Some members of this Kommando were sent to Minsk and took part in mass
killings at Maly Trostinec. In Warsaw, two battalions assisted in the
rounding-up of Jews for transport to Treblinka, guarding the
Umschlagplatz and taking part in the suppression of the Warsaw ghetto
uprising. In time, more than 100,000 Latvians were to wear a German
uniform.
<deletions>
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:48 EST 2005
Article: 1040498 of alt.revisionism
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:50:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
>
> There was no Rumbula “massacre”, and there was no holocau$t – it is a fraud.

The president of Lavia disagrees with you:

Source: http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/speeches/2002/nov/3508/

<quote>
Address of the President of the Republic of Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga,
on the occasion of the dedication of the memorial
to the victims of the Nazis at Rumbula

29 November 2002

Excellencies,
Rabbi,
Ladies and Gentlemen!

We have gathered here to dedicate a memorial to more than 25,000 persons
who were killed here on 30 November and 8 December 1941. This is one of
the darkest dates, perhaps the very darkest date, in Latvia’s history; it
is the day when this site became marked by bloodshed and lamentation.
Thousands upon thousands of innocent people were brutally murdered here
merely because for centuries and millennia they had been faithful to their
ethnic identity and religion. They had faithfully served their god and
maintained the traditions of their forefathers.

The Holocaust, in its many forms, has painfully struck Latvia. Here in
Rumbula where the earthly remains of Latvia’s Jews rest, we have come to
honour and remember them. I wish therefore to extend a special greeting to
the representatives of Latvia’s Jewish community for whom this is special
day of mourning, all the more so since here lie their loved ones,
relatives, and members of their faith.

But this is also a day of mourning and commemoration for all of Latvia,
because these events took place on Latvia’s soil and our people took part
in them. We know that this collective madness was organised by Himmler in
Berlin who called Friedrich Jaeckeln to come to Riga from Kiev since he
had already finished the monstrous massacre at Babij Yar. Tasked with the
liquidation of the Riga Ghetto, Jaeckeln personally selected the
murderers, riflemen from his staff, Germans whom he trusted and who were
given the choice of taking part or not taking part in this action. But
Jaeckeln also mobilized all of the SS and SD occupation forces, as well as
members of the Riga police, to surround the ghetto, vacate it, drive the
people on an eight-kilometre march to Rumbula, and then along the path of
death, which we have also walked today, to the big trenches that had been
dug by Russian prisoners of war.

This is an atrocious act of violence, an atrocious massacre. And it is our
duty, the duty of those of us who have survived, to pass on the
commemoration of these innocent victims to future generations, to remember
with compassion, sorrow and reverence. Our duty is to teach our children
and children’s children about it, our duty is to seek out the survivors
and record their recollections, but, above all, our duty is to see that
this will never happen again.

All of us, throughout the world, must be on guard against manifestations
of enmity between nations and religions; we must be on guard against
intolerance, signs and activities of seeking a scapegoat. We must be on
guard against people who blame their suffering, disappointment and
complications, on some other, any other easily identifiable group, and
believe that with its annihilation the world will be in order. That is not
just discrimination and hatred, but insanity. What the men of the Nazi
occupation forces did here was insane: motivated by paranoia; these people
came here with weapons and tanks to seize power. In the future every one
of us must see that in no country can power be seized by the insane,
paranoid, those who are ready for massacres. Today we have all come here
to commemorate innocent victims, to recall their names – we don’t even
know all of them but we shall try to find them – to remember their
suffering, and to bend our heads in the face of their suffering.
</quote>

So does the American ambassador to Latvia:

Source: http://www.usembassy.lv/EN/archives/carlsonsp/rumbula

<quote>
Remarks at Rumbula Memorial Dedication Ceremony, November 29, 2002

Riga Jewish Community Center
November 29, 2002

Today is about Rumbula and what happened there.

The eyewitnesses and the historians agree on what happened. In the
Rumbula forest on November 30 and December 8, 1941, 1,700 executioners
murdered more than 25,000 Jews. Of those 1,700 killers, between 1,000 and
1,500 were residents of Latvia drawn from the SD, precinct police, Riga
city police, battalion police being trained for military action in Russia,
and some 100 Latvian ghetto guards. The execution was carried out in the
most cruel and heartless way, under the direction of the Nazi Obergruppen
fuehrer Jeckeln.

The question of why human beings engage in such savagery is not only an
anthropological question. If we mean to safeguard civilization and
democracy, we have to examine the events and the participants, and we have
to understand its relevance to us and to our times.

Recently in Riga there has been discussion, especially in newspapers, of
how to describe the participants in the Rumbula killings. Some people say
that not all the Latvians were there voluntarily. Some say nothing done
in those times under Nazi occupation was “voluntary.” Some say those were
complicated times. Some say that we should not mention the Latvian
participation, because it was not voluntary. Some say that we should
forget about the Latvian participation.

It is uncanny that some people are adopting the Nuremburg defense used by
the Nazis at their postwar trial. They too denied responsibility for
their actions, saying they were “just following orders.”

How sad that anyone in todays free and democratic Latvia would excuse this
kind of crime by saying “it was a complicated time” or the executioners
were not “volunteers.”

What we have learned from 20th century history is that no man has to
follow orders. Each of us has a moral and ethical obligation to do what
is right. We have the duty to recognize evil and immoral acts. We have
the duty to refuse to take part in them. We are all volunteers on this
earth.

And, how do we teach this morality, this internal ethical standard to our
children? We teach them the lessons of the past. We do not pretend that
evil never happens. We do not cover up the awful truth.

No, we print it in big letters and we make sure everyone reads it. We
make sure everyone knows that this was an evil that no one of us must ever
let happen again.

That is why we are here today. That is why a monument to the victims of
Rumbula matters. That is why it matters what we write on that monument.
It is the truth.
</quote>

Even SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln would have disagreed with you:

Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html

<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln

In his interrogation on 14 December 1945, (1) Minutes the Higher SS and
Police Leader Jeckeln detailed the operations that fell within the
framework of the Final Solution in the East:

The shootings were carried out under the direction of Colonel Dr. Lange,
Commander of the SD and Gestapo in Latvia. Knecht was in charge of
security at the liquidation sites. (2) I, Jeckeln, took part in the
shootings on three occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in Riga.

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to the liquidation
site. Near the pits, they had to deposit their overclothes, which were
washed, sorted, and shipped back to Germany. Jews – men, women, and
children – passed through police cordons on their way to the pits, where
they were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in Riga had
been liquidated. And then when I was in Lötzen, East Prussia, in December
1941, I reported in person, too. (3) Himmler was satisfied with the
results. He said that more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia,
and these were to be liquidated by me also.

Q: Go into more detail.

A: At the end of January 1942, (4) I was at Himmler’s headquarters in
Lötzen, East Prussia, to discuss organizational matters regarding the
Latvian SS legions. There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish
convoys were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The
destination point would be the Salaspils concentration camp, which lay one
and a quarter miles from Riga in the direction of Dünaburg. Himmler said
that he had not yet determined how he would have them exterminated:
whether to have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker death.
Himmler said he would think it over and then give orders later through
Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium,
Holland,Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews from the camp were exterminated. But
I would like to make an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

A: I would like to say for the record that Göring shares in the guilt for
the liquidations of Jewish convoys that arrived from other countries. In
the first half of February 1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this
letter he wrote that Reich Marshall Göring had gotten himself involved in
the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped to the East for
annihilation only with Göring’s approval.

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils.

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews in
Salaspils with Himmler in Lötzen. That alone makes me an accessory to this
crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot in Salaspils camp by forces recruited
>from my SD and Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in charge of the
shootings. Other officers who reported to me on the shooting of Jews in
the camp were the commander of the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States,
Major General Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police
Fuchs.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation.

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be known too, isn’t
that correct?

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The first
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November 1941. Then, in the first
half of 1942, convoys arrived at regular intervals. I believe that in
November 1941, no more than three convoys arrived in all, but during the
next seven months, from December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve
convoys arrived each month. Overall, in eight months, no less than
fifty-five and no more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived in camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a total of
55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however, that
before my arrival in Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and
in White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this fact. (5)

Q: By whom, specifically?

Stahlecker; Prützmann; Lange; Major General Schröder, the SS and Police
Leader in Latvia; Major General Möller, the SS and Police Leader in
Estonia; and Major General Wysocki, the SS and Police Leader in Lithuania.

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

A: Schröder reported to me that over and above those Jews who had been
exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews
were exterminated in Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings.
Möller reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as the
Jewish question was concerned. The Estonian Jewish population was
insignificant, all in all about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to
nil. The greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported that
100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated – shot – in Lithuania, on
Stahlecker’s orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish exterminations were overseen
by the commander of the SD and Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police
Jäger. Later Jäger told me that he had become neurotic as a result of
these shootings. Jäger was pensioned off and left his post for treatment.
All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the actions in the Baltic
East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500 to 253,000. (6)

(1) Minutes from Jeckeln’s interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8 – 13,
Historical State Archives, Riga.

(2) Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia.

(3) I.e., to Himmler’s “Hochwald” headquarters in Lötzen.

(4) I.e., 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. – 1:00 p.m.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten entry, re: his
telephone conversation “from the Wolfsschanze 17 [i.e., 5:00 P.M.] SS
Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into concentration camps”NS 19/neu 1439
Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

(5) Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police Leader
for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln personnel file, Berlin Document
Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section,
“Ostland,” occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).

(6) In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: “Re: executions through 1
February 1942, by the Einsatzkommando 3A: Jews 136,421. Total: 138,272, of
these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464” (Institut für Zeitgeschichte
3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).

Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of
California Press. 1984. pp. 95 – 98
</quote>

If you have information that proves that they are wrong, or even worse,
lying, do you not have the responsibility to make it known to the media
and the relevant authorities?

Watch Helge run, folks.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:49 EST 2005
Article: 1040532 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:00:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Holman’s heavy reliance on the anti-revisionist Ezergailis is noted. As
> I posted before:
> Friedrich Jeckeln was interrogated by Major Zwetajew of the Soviet
> agency SMERSH, the same people who interrogated German Wehrmacht
> officers about the Katyn massacre, found them guilty and subsequently
> hanged them publicly in
> Leningrad.
> Jeckeln’s statements are worthless.

Why?

The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was then
called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in German
occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact. Major Zwatajew might
have presided over some dishonest trials, but that does not automatically
make everything that Jeckeln confessed to “worthless”. Jeckeln presided
over a bureaucracy that officiously produced abundant amounts of
documents, including those generated by the registration of Jews and their
property, the establishment, sealing off, and administration of the Jewish
ghetto in central Riga, the organization and implementation of the Rumbula
massacre, and the classification, evaluation, storage, and disposal of the
property and assets left behind by the more than 24,000 murdered Jews.

There is no disputing the facts that:
1. Nazi Germany invaded Latvia and, with the help of Latvian
collaborators, immediately started assembling and killing Jews in the
countryside and small towns.
2. The Germans captured Riga and declared a variant of the Nuremberg Laws
in force. Latvian Jews were deprived of their citizenship and civil
rights, forced to register, and eventually consigned to the ghetto.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had supervised many mass
execuions in the Ukraine, was summoned to Riga by Heinrich Himmler
[Landgericht Hamburg: Urteil gegen Jahnke, p. 54. The order to kill the
Jews of Rīga is also examined by Fleming, *Hitler and the Final Solution*,
Chapters 7 and 8.]
4. Most of the 24,000 inhabitants of the Riga ghetto were marched along
Moscow Road [Maskvas Iela] to the killing site, where trench-like graves
had been dug by Soviet POWs, on November 30 and December 8, 1941. The
march began at 6 in the morning and ended after nightfall. It was done in
full public view, and people who attempted to escape or who could not keep
up were shot in cold blood and left lying along the road until their
bodies were picked up hours later. Several hundred people in the ghetto
were shot on both days for insubordination or because they were unable or
unwilling to join the march to the killing site.
5. The property of the murdred Jews was collected, sorted, stored and
evaluated, and then sold off or shipped to Germany.
6. An operation of this complexity requires careful planning and finely
tuned logistics. Approximately 1,500 people participated as guards,
property gatherers, drivers, interpreters, or marksmen.
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, whose fifty-man headquarters was
housed in the Riga Ritterhaus, was responsible for organizing and
implementing the massacre.
7. Jeckeln reported to Himmler by telephone, and then later in person, at
Lötzen in late December, 1941, that the job had been completed
successfully.

For a notation in Himmler’s diary shortly after the first phase of the
Rumbula massacre see http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html .

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/

<quote>
<deletions>
British codebreakers intercepted Dec 1, 1941 code messages from Himmler
ordering the SS murderer Jeckeln to report to Headquarters, to be
reprimanded for overstepping the guidelines in liquidating thousands of
German Jews at Riga on Nov 30, 1941
<deletions>
</quote>

Note: a trainload of approximately 1,000 Jews from Berlin had arrived at
the Rumbula station in the early morning of November 30, 1941. They were
the first to be awakened, marched to the killing site, made to lie down in
pre-dug graves, and shot. These Berlin Jews were all dead by the time the
first Jews from the ghetto had arrived at 9.00 AM. Later that day Himmler
had telephoned to Heydrich ordering that the trainload of Jews from Berlin
not be liquidated, but it was too late, they had already been shot. See
below.

> Holman: “Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him. Himmler’s
> diaries contain
> entries dealing with the mass-shootings, “Exekutionen”, in Riga”

See, e.g. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html .

There the entry for 13:30 includes a telephone call to Obergruppenführer
Heydrich in Prague, the man who at that time was macromanaging the
Holocaust, that includes “Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung.”
Obviously, Himmler knew that a transport of Jews had been sent to Riga to
be liquidated, and he was trying to prevent this, although this time he
was a few hours too late. What better proof could there be of the planned
and coordinated nature of the Holocaust?
>
> I asked: ” I have a copy of Himmler’s Dienstkalender. Could you
> specify the page number or the calender date?”
>
> No answer frm Holman!

See http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html, where the entry for
13:15 includes “Exekutionen in Riga”.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:49 EST 2005
Article: 1040539 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:19:30 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, helge
<deletions>
> >
> >
> > The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
> > war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
> > 1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
> > they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
> > any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.

>
> you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
> “trapped” from 1941 – 1944.

Most of them were. Deprived of citizenship, they had no travel documents.
In most of the countries occupied by Germany they were subject to strict
curfews and were not allowed to use any means of transportation or
communication. Sparsely settled Norway, from which many local Jews were
able to sneak over the border to Sweden, and “model protectorate” Denmark,
where a German sympathizer tipped the local Jewish community off that they
were to be arrested and deported, allowing almost all of them to escape to
Sweden hidden in fishing boats, stand out as exceptions.

Most European Jews in Nazi-occupied were trapped, with no means of escape.
Why would people such as the Frank family, who had already escaped Nazism
once by fleeing to the Netherlands, have gone to such lengths to hide if
there had been a way out?

> If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being “exterminated” they
> would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
> the “extermination” of Hungarian jews in 1944 !

What “famous lies”? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
Wallenberg and his staff issued Swedish travel documents to tens of
thousands of them, tus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
transports of Jews to Auschwitz?

> you do want people to
> believe that as early as 1941 “everyone knew” that jews are being
> exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
> 1944 !

Everybody “didn’t” know in 1941, but many people did. It was a war, and
restrictions on movement and information applied. The Hungarian Jews were
pawns to German policy. Germany tended to leave Jews alone in countries
that were actively allied with it, such as Norway, Denmark, Finland,
Hungary, and Bulgaria. In Norway the local SS chief on his own initiative
had most of the small Jewish community suddenly rounded up and deported to
Germany, where almost all of them perished. In Finland Jews fought
alongside Nazis against a common enemy, the Soviet Union, but the Germans
had a plan to arrest and deport Finnish Jews should the need arise, and
the Finnish Jews had an escape plan if the Germans were to start arresting
them. The Jews of Hungary were left in relative peace as long as Hungary
remained a loyal German ally, but they were quickly identified, arrested,
and deported according to a plan drawn up in advance when Germany invaded
Hungary subsequent to a government change and efforts to extricate Hungary
>from the war. German presssure on Bulgaria to hand over its Jews
precipitated a government crisis. Bulgaria never handed over any of its
Jews to the Nazis, despite considerable economnic and diplomatic pressure,
but it did deliver more than 10,000 Greek Jews to the Nazis from occupied
Thrace in compensation.

>
> so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> such crap ?

As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
August 15, 1961.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:50 EST 2005
Article: 1040541 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.218.7.141!news.glorb.com!newspeer1.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:29:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, helge
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > <deletions>
> >
> >>There was no Rumbula “massacre”, and there was no holocau$t – it is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > The president of Lavia disagrees with you:
>
> <snip holocau$t propaganda crap />
>
> according to your type of “evidence”, one needs only to present opinions
> /writings of catholic church officials in order to “prove” that the
> witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.

Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
limbs. If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excllency
Ambassador Carlson of commemorating “holocau$t propaganda crap” you have
to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
positionb than they are.

> the fact is that no REAL – material/forensic evidence exist to support
> the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.

Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
generates all kinds of evidence. Forensic evidence is merely one kind of
evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property of
25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence of
mass murder. There is no forensic evidence that many of the victims of the
recent tsunami, but conclusions can be drawn about people known to have
been vacationing in Thailand, Sri lanks, and other countries hit who did
not check out of their hotel or collect their possessions, were not on
their scheduled return flight, have not been located in a local hospital,
did not show up for work or school, and have not been seen or heard of
since December 26, 2004.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:50 EST 2005
Article: 1040565 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:32:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
limbs. If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
Ambassador Carlson of commemorating “holocau$t propaganda crap”, you have
to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
position than they are. If you know that they have been deceived, it is
your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.

> the fact is that no REAL – material/forensic evidence exist to support
> the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.

There is no forensic evidence that many of the victims of the recent
tsunami were killed, but conclusions can be drawn about people known to
have been vacationing in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and other countries hit who
did not check out of their hotel or collect their possessions, were not on
their scheduled return flight, have not been located in a local hospital,
did not show up for work or school, and have not been seen or heard from
since December 26, 2004. History does not rest solely on forensic
evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
is to be of any value.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:50 EST 2005
Article: 1040617 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:54:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, helge
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> […
> >
> > Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> > generates all kinds of evidence. Forensic evidence is merely one kind
> of
> > evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property
> of
> > 25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence
> of
> > mass murder.
>
> Of course the deportation of Jews to the Soviet Union (80% of the
> Latvian Jewish population was deported according to Sanning/Bergelson)
> would also necessitate paperwork dealing with their assets and property
> left behind. Holman and Ezergailis seems to be obsessed with the
> killing of people.

The Rumbula massacre was not just an isolated incident. It marked a
turning point in the implementation of the Holocaust. The complexity of
the logistics, the extremely public manner in which it was carried out
marked, and the bad vibes thus generated among the local population, meant
a turning point in the Holocaust. No mass killings on this scale take
place any more. In the future mass killing was to be centralized, made
more selective, and implemented behind closed doors.

Himmler was highly displeased with the November 30 action in Riga.

Here are translations (the originals are available at
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/decodes_RFSS011241.html) of
communication between Himmler and Jeckeln in which Himmler orders Jeckeln
to explain his actions and reprimands him for violating the guidelines for
the treatment of Jews in Ostland:

<quote>
ZIP/GPD 471/4.12.41: German Police Decodes, No. 2, Traffic 1.12.41

[…]

No. 24: OEJ from DSQ SSD DSQ No 3 1930 2 parts 175 71 SPK1 3742

SS Obergruppenführer JECKELN, Senior SS and Police Commander, Ostland
[Baltic Provinces], RIGA. The Reichsführer SS [HIMMLER] summons you to him
for a conference on 4.12.41. Please state when you will arrive here and by
what means you will be travelling (on account of being fetched). (Sgd.)
[Werner] GROTHMANN, SS Hauptsturmführer and Adjutant [of Himmler]

No. 25: OEJ from DSQ SSD DSQ No 4 1930 2 parts 177 75 SPK1 3742

SS Obergruppenführer JECKELN, Senior SS and Police Commander, Ostland
[Baltic Provinces], RIGA. The Jews being resettled in the Ostland region
are to be treated only in accordance with the guidelines laid down by
myself or by the Reich Security Main Office. I will punish those who act
on their own authority or in contravention [of the guidelines]. (Sgd. H
HIMMLER)”
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:50 EST 2005
Article: 1040659 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hungary remembers the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:09:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, “Szaki”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Hahahahaha! You think Hungarians are chicken shits Mr. black Holman?

Lófasz a seggedbe!

> Why don’t you waist your time protesting against black slavery, rather than
> the Holohoax!

Azt nem tudod, mi nekem jó.

The Holocaust is universal and affects us all.

> Fits you more! You can hold hands with Angela Davis or the Black Panthers!

Angela Davis is a true-believing communist, the Black Panthers were
terrorists. Not my kind of people.

Source: http://www.rumbula.org/quesans.htm

<quote>
<deletions>
Rumbula After The War

————————————————————————

Michael Genchik lost seven of ten members of his family at Rumbula Forest
including parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. He maintained
the mass graves after the war as a member of the Soviet Army and has since
immigrated to the United States. Here are his answers to questions about
Rumbula Forest.

MICHAEL GENCHIK REMEMBERS

What do you personally know of the history of Rumbula Forest, the graves
and any markers there the years?

Rumbula is a forest on the outskirts of Riga, close to the highway from
Riga to Moscow. After the Soviet Army liberated Riga, the killing place in
Rumbula didn’t get much attention from the officials.

Then young Jewish activists from the Riga synagogue decided to take care
of the place. They brought trucks with soil close to the place and dropped
it on the ground by the highway. From there they carried the soil on
stretchers to the gravesite and formed graves.

After that the officials erected the tombstones, but were afraid to write
on them, that there were mostly Jews among the killed, instead saying that
there are buried war prisoners and other soviet citizens.

In later years the officials held memorial services every year in November
or December. There were speeches reminding of the atrocities of the Nazis.
But saying kaddish was forbidden. Once after the official part of the
meeting, Jews tried to say Kaddish and tell a little about the ghetto, but
the police didn’t permit to do so. Until 1972, when I retired from the
army, I did my best to keep the place neat.

Earlier in 1941, did the Germans intentionally attempt to fool people that
they wouldn’t be so bad, thus preventing a large scale and universal
opposition before they developed solid control?

In Riga many Jews were oriented to the German culture and spoke mainly
German. People knew that Germans are a civilized and cultural nation and
could not believe that they would harm innocent people. They knew, that in
WWI the Germans didn’t harm innocent people and were sure they will not
hurt them now. That’s one of the reasons why so many Jews didn’t leave
Riga in the first days of the war. No one, of course, knew the plans of
the Nazis to wipe out the Latvian Jews.

What should young people today, who were born several generations after
these events, learn from Rumbula and the Holocaust in Latvia?

No doubt that people, especially young people, should learn from the
Holocaust, part of which is Rumbula. The mass killings of absolutely
innocent people only because they belong to a certain group or nation is
not permissible and should never happen again to anyone. I think that the
tragedy of the Holocaust should be taught to as many people as possible.
That’s why I think that the website rumbula org. is an excellent way to
bring it to as many people as possible and that you started a very good
step in that direction.
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:51 EST 2005
Article: 1040675 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:54:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
> “trapped” from 1941 – 1944.

What “famous lies”? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
transports of Jews to Auschwitz?

> you do want people to
> believe that as early as 1941 “everyone knew” that jews are being
> exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
> 1944 !

Everybody “didn’t” know in 1941, but many people did. It was a war, and
restrictions on movement and information applied. The Hungarian Jews were
pawns to German policy. Germany tended to leave Jews alone in countries
that were actively allied with it, such as Norway, Denmark, Finland,
Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria. In Norway the local SS chief on his own
initiative had most of the small Jewish community suddenly rounded up and
deported to Germany, where almost all of them perished. In Finland Jews
fought alongside Nazis against a common enemy, the Soviet Union, but the
Germans had a plan to arrest and deport Finnish Jews should the need
arise, and the Finnish Jews had an escape plan if the Germans were to
start arresting them. The Jews of Hungary were left in relative peace as
long as Hungary remained a loyal German ally, but they were quickly
identified, arrested, and deported according to a plan drawn up in advance
when Germany invaded Hungary subsequent to a government change and efforts
to extricate Hungary from the war. German presssure on Bulgaria to hand
over its Jews precipitated a government crisis. Bulgaria never handed over
any of its Jews to the Nazis, despite considerable economnic and
diplomatic pressure, but it did deliver more than 10,000 Greek Jews to the
Nazis from occupied Thrace in compensation.

>
> so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> such crap ?

As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
August 15, 1961.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:51 EST 2005
Article: 1040676 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:56:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
> “trapped” from 1941 – 1944.

Most European Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe were indeed trapped, with no
means of escape. Why would people such as the Frank family, who had
already escaped Nazism once by fleeing to the Netherlands, have gone to
such lengths to hide if there had been an easier way out?

What “famous lies”? Are you denying that Adolf Eichmann was having
Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
transports of Jews to Auschwitz?

> you do want people to
> believe that as early as 1941 “everyone knew” that jews are being
> exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
> 1944 !

Everybody “didn’t” know in 1941, but many people did. It was a war, and
restrictions on movement and information applied. The Hungarian Jews were
pawns to German policy. Germany tended to leave Jews alone in countries
that were actively allied with it, such as Norway, Denmark, Finland,
Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria. In Norway the local SS chief on his own
initiative had most of the small Jewish community suddenly rounded up and
deported to Germany, where almost all of them perished. In Finland Jews
fought alongside Nazis against a common enemy, the Soviet Union, but the
Germans had a plan to arrest and deport Finnish Jews should the need
arise, and the Finnish Jews had an escape plan if the Germans were to
start arresting them. The Jews of Hungary were left in relative peace as
long as Hungary remained a loyal German ally, but they were quickly
identified, arrested, and deported according to a plan drawn up in advance
when Germany invaded Hungary subsequent to a government change and efforts
to extricate Hungary from the war. German presssure on Bulgaria to hand
over its Jews precipitated a government crisis. Bulgaria never handed over
any of its Jews to the Nazis, despite considerable economnic and
diplomatic pressure, but it did deliver more than 10,000 Greek Jews to the
Nazis from occupied Thrace in compensation.

>
> so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> such crap ?

As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
August 15, 1961.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:51 EST 2005
Article: 1040682 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:13:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 41
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
> >>If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being “exterminated” they
> >>would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
> >>the “extermination” of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
> >
> >
> > What “famous lies”? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
> > Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
> > Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
> > thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
> > eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
> > transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
>
> really interesting that a “linguist” is not able to comprehend a
> sentence – i clearly said:
>
> “Take for example the famous *lies about the “extermination”* of
> Hungarian jews in 1944”
>
> *LIES ABOUT EXTERMINATION*

And I ask you: what *lies* about the extermination of Hungarian Jews in 1944?

Do you regard the claim that 148 trainloads containing a total of
437,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz to be a lie?
Do you regard the claim that Adolf Eichmann was responsible for
coordinating these deportations to be a lie?
Do you regard the claim that Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg issued
Swedish travel documents to almost 100,000 Hungarian Jews, thus allowing
them free passage out of German controlled territory, to be a lie?
Do you regard the claim that Swedish King, Gustav V, appealed directly
to the Hungarian head of state, Miklós Horthy, in July, 1944, to stop the
deportations of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz to be a lie?

A simple “yes” or “no” response will suffice.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:51 EST 2005
Article: 1040687 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:34:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
> >
> >>so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> >>such crap ?
> >
> >
> > As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
> > August 15, 1961.
> >
>
> oh, really ? didn’t you forget that your jewish “victims” knew about
> the “extermination of jews” as early as 1941 ?!? you know it was a well
> known fact trumpeted the same day on BBC and other radio stations.

Correct. There was absolutely nothing they could have done about it. They
were trapped in a sealed and well-guarded ghetto. Their money and assets
had been confiscated. They were not allowed to use any means of
transporation. They lacked both travel documents and citizenship. They had
no option of escaping to the Soviet Union as many prescient Latvian Jews
had done during the first days after the German attacked in June. The Jews
who remained in the ghetto after the November 30 massacre knew what fate
awaited them, but there was nothing that they could do to avoid it except
make a run for it on the day when they were awakened and ordered to march
>from the ghetto to the killing site. Many of them, their number is in the
hundreds, did make a run for it, and most of them were shot dead along
Moscow Road by the guards and policemen who were posted along the route.

> None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
> advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
> shallow like your propaganda and lies.

Oh, come on! The East Germans knew that theirs was the only country in the
eastern bloc whose borders had not been sealed, and that this situation
could not last forever. Even during the few first days after August 15,
when the wall was still mostly barbed wire and many escape opportunities
existed, a very small number of people actually took the risk and escaped.
These included the famous Vopo who jumped to his freedom from to the West,
people who were lowered down to the West along ropes from windows, people
who swam across the River Spree, and people who dug tunnels. The
overwhelming majority of East Germans, though, including those building
the wall and those guarding the builders, stayed put.

In German-held territory, the two great Jewish revolts, the one in the
Warsaw ghetto in April, 1943, and the one at the Sobibor death camp, on
October 14, 1943, resulted in almost all of those who either participated
in the revolt or actually managed to escape eventually being ruthlessly
killed by the Nazis.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:52 EST 2005
Article: 1040697 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:35:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
> >>according to your type of “evidence”, one needs only to present opinions
> >>/writings of catholic church officials in order to “prove” that the
> >>witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
> >
> >
> > Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> > limbs.
>
> of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush –
> just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
> their “truth” is “political truth” and holocau$t propaganda falls into
> the same category: the “truth” about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
> chemical weapons is as true as the “truth” about German “gas vans” or
> “extermination camps” – it is the same lie by the same liars…

Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people. The ruins of the
Great Choral Synagogue on Gogol St. in central Riga, torched by a
Nazi-instigated crowd with refugees in the basement on July 4, 1941,
remind any visitor to Riga of what was going on there during the Nazi
occupation. So do the former Jewish ghetto, virtually untouched sinbce the
war, and the Old Jewish Cemetery, with its massive headstone and fresh
flowers, marking the grave of the more than 1,000 people who were shot
during the liquidation of the ghetto or on the wat from there to the
killing site at Rumbula.

> > If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
> > Ambassador Carlson of commemorating “holocau$t propaganda crap”, you have
> > to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
> > position than they are.
>
> > If you know that they have been deceived, it is
> > your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.
> >
>
> Freedom of Speech restricting-totalitarian laws are stopping people from
> doing that.

Latvia is not a totalitarian country and it has no laws against Holocaust
denial. On the other hand, Latvian president Vaira Vike-Freiberga is old
enough to have a distinct memory of the stench that befouled the air in
Riga for several weeks during the summer of 1943 when the bodies of the
victims of the Rumbula massacre were exhumed and burned on Himmler’s
orders.

If you think that the Rumbula massacre never occurred, you can e-mail the
president by going to http://www.president.lv/index.php?pid=2270. Readers
of alt.revisionism would appreciate a copy of your e-mail and of her
response to it.

> Your request is ridiculous and cynical – exactly the same as if you were
> suggesting to a person in former/existing totalitarian country to go and
> fulfill his/her “civic duty”.

It is no more ridiculous than it is cynical. Latvia is a member in good
standing of the Western community, of the EU, and of NATO. If you can
demonstrate that they have been commemorating a non-event for years, you
will become a celebrity.

> >>the fact is that no REAL – material/forensic evidence exist to support
> >>the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> >>lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
> >
> >
> > Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> > generates all kinds of evidence.
>
> yes but there was no “Killing off 25,000 people within the course of
> eight days” – that is the reason why you are not able to present any
> forensic evidence.

Anyone who goes to the site of the former killing site can find charred
bits and pieves of human remains. The mass grave at the Old Jewish
Cemetery was filled with bodies and has been undisturbed since 1941. Since
it is a mass grave, and thus a potential health hazard, the municipal
authorities have a record of its contents and give it the attention that
is given to all known graves. Thus, the demand for forensic evidence is
irrelevant.

Much more interesting would be your explanation for some telltale entries
in Himmler’s records.

November 30, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html:

The entry for 13:30 includes a telephone call to Obergruppenführer
Heydrich in Prague, the man who at that time was macromanaging the
Holocaust, that includes “Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung.”
Himmler knew that a transport of Jews had been sent to Riga to
be liquidated, and he was trying to prevent this, although this time he
was a few hours too late.

December 1, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html. The entry for
the telephone call at 13:15 includes “Exekutionen in Riga”.

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/

A trainload of approximately 1,000 Jews from Berlin had arrived at
the Rumbula station in the early morning of November 30, 1941. They were
the first to be awakened, marched to the killing site, made to lie down in
pre-dug graves, and shot. These Berlin Jews were all dead by the time the
first Jews from the ghetto had arrived at 9.00 AM. Later that day Himmler
had telephoned to Heydrich ordering that the trainload of Jews from Berlin
not be liquidated, but it was too late, they had already been shot. See
below.

> > History does not rest solely on forensic
> > evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
> > position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
> > forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
> > is to be of any value.
> >
>
> you do not have any forensic evidence – you simply do not have anything
> to “interpret”. according to your lies apx. 1 000 000 – 1 500 000 jews
> were killed in Eastern Europe – the existing/available forensic evidence
> hardly supports couple of hundreds. none would ever ask question if the
> forensic evidence was supporting at least 1/3 of your claims cca. 300
> 000 victims.

What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
most of the physical evidence, then the murders that he committed cannot
be demonstreted to have taken place. You and I know that this is a crock
of bull.

As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
yielded more than 500 bodies.

Source: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html

<quote>
INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES – THE ARCHAEOLOGlCAL EVIDENCE p.39

Richard Wright

In this evening’s talk I shall introduce you to archaeological
investigations of mass killings in Ukraine. The people were murdered in
1942 and we excavated the graves 50 years later. Our work was done to
support three prosecutions made in Adelaide under the War Crimes
Legislation. I am an archaeologist. Why was an archaeologist needed at
all?

Well, the Special Investigations Unit of the Attorney-General’s Department
was determined to forestall two styles of defence customarily offered in
such cases – that the wrong person has been charged (mistaken
identification), and that the events alleged are imagined or (if not
wholly imagined) so polluted in people’s memories by the lapse of time,
and by self-reinforcing narration, as to be worthlessly distorted
evidence. Being an archaeologist, I had nothing to do with the first
strategy (identification of the alleged perpetrators) but I had much to do
with investigating material evidence for the alleged events.

So, I shall talk to you this evening about how we found the graves, how we
worked out details of the killings, and how we dated events both by old
fashioned stratigraphic methods and modern chronometric techniques.

The events we investigated are shocking and I must warn you that some of
the pictures I am going to show you of the events are themselves shocking.
Those of you in this evening’s audience who have perhaps only thought of
the war crimes prosecutions as a political issue, may well be disturbed by
the sight of the events we uncovered.

I hope these introductory remarks can also serve as an apology for
concentrating on the particulars, and not presuming to give a summary of
the holocaust in Ukraine. My profession is that of archaeologist, not
historian. In Ukraine I did archaeology. Other people (for example,
Professor Konrad Kwiet, now of Macquarrie University) did the history.

I have one final introductory remark. The events of the Holocaust have
never impinged on me personally except for one childhood event which has
become more symbolically important for me since we did our work in
Ukraine. Let me take you through this briefly.

p.40 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

Just before the Second World War, my father (who was a clergyman in the
evangelical wing of the Anglican church in England) befriended an Austrian
neurologist and his family. This family of Jews had been thrown out of
Austria after the Nazis took over. I suspect that what was to become a
close friendship, gave my father a profoundly new, and more secular, view
of the world. He had taken as a friend, a person who had not only a
foreign nationality, but also a foreign profession and (what would have
been to my father) a foreign religion.

I used to play with Hans, the son of this neurologist. One day we were
playing a game of soldiers in our garden. Hans suddenly broke off the game
and told me how his family was herded to the Vienna railway station. He
was having trouble keeping up with the column. Just before it reached the
station, an old man picked Hans up in his arms. A soldier shouted and then
used his rifle butt to club the head of the old man who was carrying Hans.
He fell to the ground as the old man’s arms opened.

I never found myself dwelling on this story told to me in my childhood.
Indeed I had virtually forgotten it – until we found ourselves excavating
in the grave at Serniki.

Let’s talk about Serniki first. Our party consisted of myself as
archaeologist. In charge of the forensic side (for assessing sex, age,
manner of death – that sort of thing) we had Dr Godfrey Oettle who was
then head of the division of forensic medicine in Glebe. Responsible for
collecting details in a form acceptable for a court of law was Detective
Sergeant David Hughes of the NSW police. David had recently been a member
of the taskforce that solved the so-called granny murders in Sydney. My
wife Sonia, who is an experienced field archaeologist, came as my
assistant. She is at present writing up her experiences at Serniki, using
facilities at the Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies at Macquarie
University.

Now even with glasnost (well underway in 1990) you could not just turn up
in Moscow and announce you were going to do a mass exhumation in Ukraine.
No, our efforts had been arranged with officials within the Soviet
government. The Soviet officials had already experienced the
professionalism of the Sydney based Special Investigations Unit, because
(apart from what we were to do) the Australian team had virtually wound up
its investigations at the village of Serniki. When we turned up, we
inherited much of the goodwill that the SIU had built up with both the
Soviet and Ukrainian authorities. Responsibility for ensuring we had what
we wanted was given to the procurator for the whole western half of the
Soviet Union, Madam Kalashnikova – a person who we found at times lived up
to the Western metaphor of a Kalashnikof, but who could at other times be
immensely helpful.

THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.41

Serniki is on the southern margins of the Pripet marshes, which Hitler in
his table talk said he would, after he won the war, retain as an area for
Wehrmacht manoeuvres. The area we were working in was well within the
German lines in this area of Ukraine. When we turned up it was high summer
and a fantastic growing time of the year in fields and gardens. The locals
were not used to tourists and we were stared at a lot.

The area of the grave is now in an ominous-looking dark pine forest, but
feelings of that sort are illusory. At the time of the killing this was
open country. At the site in the forest, the Soviet authorities had set us
up with a telephone, tents, electricity, bulldozers, and a contingent of
Red Army soldiers. Only the telephone didn’t work.

The local officials wanted to find bodies as soon as possible, and did so
at what turned out to be one end of the grave. However my interest, as an
archaeologist, was first to find a soil feature that might be interpreted
as a grave and only then look for bodies. In this way damage to contextual
evidence would be minimised.

We were fortunate in finding a marked contrast in colour and texture
between the natural soil and the filling of the grave. This contrast came
right to the base of the existing humic zone at the surface, so we were
able to delimit one whole half of the grave before disturbing anything. To
do the work, we divided the grave into two halves. The Australian team
took charge of the end we had located by archaeological methods, and the
Soviets took the other.

Our first job, having delimited the boundaries of the grave as some 40
metres long and 5 metres wide, was to bulldoze down two metres to within
20 centimetres of the bodies. Then, together with the soldiers, we used
shovels to remove the sand until the tops of the bodies were exposed.

We then used paint brushes to do the final exposure. At the end of five
weeks of gruesome work, our count of skulls indicated about 550 bodies in
the grave. There may have been a few more skulls where bodies lay more
than two deep, but the torsos had too much surviving soft tissue to make
feasible the task of any further exposure.

An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they were
mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been herded down
a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been shot while
lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right. The
majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some of
them had been clubbed.

At the end the Soviets were working on, the bodies lay face down, parallel
and in rows. At our end the bodies were much more disorganised. There
seemed to have been panic at our end.

In a generally empty area at the middle of the grave we found bodies that
had fewer bullets to the head. Some had been clubbed.

p.42 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

These people had surviving bits of clothing, whereas the main mass of
people at each end of the grave, had been stripped before being shot. We
found items of clothing right through the filling of the grave, suggesting
that people had picked through a pile of clothing, throwing in what was
unwanted while the grave was being filled in. One boot contained a pocket
watch secreted in the heel.

We felt a grim satisfaction in revealing that the massive grave was much
too large for the number of people in it. The Nazis had obviously hoped
for many more victims.

One of my duties was to concentrate on dating the event. After cleaning up
some of the corroded machine pistol cartridge cases, and examining them
with a lens, my colleagues found that the killers had used German
ammunition stamped with the place and date of manufacture. The cases dated
>from the years of 1939, 1940 and 1941. These cases were like coins found
in conventional excavations. We thereby had a date of 1941, later than
which the killings must have taken place.

It proved more of a problem to get a date earlier than which the killings
took place. The fir trees grew in parallel rows and were clearly a
plantation. Some fir trees grew in the filling of the grave. We examined
the growth rings of the trees. The greatest number of rings we could find
was 29, indicating that the killing had taken place before 1961.

We were able to narrow dating down significantly once we got back to
Sydney. Radiocarbon dating of hair showed that the individuals showed no
trace of the so-called hydrogen bomb effect in their proportion of carbon
isotopes, so the killing took place before hydrogen bombs started to be
let off in 1952.

Now we turn to the work in Ustinovka, a year later in 1991. Here we had
Sergeant Steve Horne in place of David Hughes. Dr Chris Griffiths, a
specialist in forensic dentistry at Westmead Hospital, joined Godfrey
Oettle on the forensic side. He was needed because of a particularly awful
allegation about the killings there. It was alleged that after a hundred
or so adults had been marched two kilometres to a grave and shot, a fellow
had asked where the children were. “We didn’t think you wanted to shoot
the children,” the organisers of the round up had said. At that, some
fellows returned to the village, commandeered a cart, and drove the
children back to the grave. They then, so the allegations went, threw the
children off the cart and into the grave, and shot them. I was told that
the SIU investigators had interviewed the mother of three of those
children (the father was a Jew, she wasn’t). She said she had returned
>from the fields for lunch one day. Her children were not in the house. She
asked the neighbours whether they had seen the children. The neighbours
told her they had been taken away to be shot.

THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.43

Dr Griffith’s services were required because of the need to work out the
ages of the children, if indeed we found them, from the stages of eruption
of the milk teeth and permanent teeth.

Ustinovka is 500 ESE of Serniki, in the fertile black soil loess belt.
Unlike at Serniki, the locals had only a vague idea of where the grave
might be. There was no sign on the surface.

Standing in a vast paddock of 10 cm tall peas and maize, I felt helpless.
How were we to start looking? Where were we to start looking? The rest of
the team looked confident, expecting Sonia and myself to perform some sort
of archaeological divination.

I remembered back to my textbooks. Young crops like disturbed ground,
trenches showing up from the air as greener features. This gave us an
idea. Back in town we had seen an ancient biplane on an airstrip. We asked
if we could use it.

Permission to use the biplane was readily granted, but – NO PHOTOS. As it
turned out photos would have been impossible out of the scratched perspex
windows of this crop-dusting biplane, stinking of chemicals. Even looking
for cropmarks was impossible. So we asked for a better plane.

Next morning we returned to the site. In the middle of the peas and maize
stood a Soviet army helicopter, rocket pods protruding. What about photos?
The crew seemed annoyed with the question. There were no problems with
photos from the helicopter, of the helicopter, of the crew (in particular
there was no problem with colour Polaroids of the crew).

The flight was to no avail. Nothing showed up. So we had to use mundane
methods.

We put a shallow trench with backhoe across a likely area, examining the
scraped walls for lateral discontinuities in colour and texture. In this
way we found the sides of a deep cutting, which turned out to be the
grave. At Ustinovka, unlike at Serniki, we succeeded in defining the whole
area of the grave before we disturbed any of its contents. When you are
looking for a buried body your archaeological objective should be first to
find the grave and only then bother with the body. This is a fundamental
principle of conserving evidence that Australian police should pay more
attention to. Archaeologists too rarely get called in to assist police in
their investigations.

Remembering the story that children had been killed after the adults, our
stratigraphic evidence provided stunning support for this story. We came
down on the children’s skeletons first, and then what seemed to be the
bottom of the grave. But 20 centimetres below the children lay the adults.
The witnesses did not actually mention that the grave had been partly
filled after the adults were killed, but obviously our stratigraphic
observations provide important material evidence for their statement that
children were killed later.

p.44 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES – THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

There were about 20 children. The youngest one was about six months and
virtually destroyed in the soil except for the teeth. The oldest one was
about 12 or 13 years old.

Thus we were able to get evidence that would have been missed without
attention to scientific methods of excavation. At Ustinovka, maybe even
the grave itself would have been missed.

I want to finish this evening by looking more widely than at Ukraine. As
you might expect, I am not alone in thinking that archaeological
methodology has a role in the investigation of killings. The University of
Bradford has a postgraduate diploma that majors in forensic archaeology. I
hope to visit John Hunter there when I go over to the United Kingdom later
this year.

Closer in topic to what we have spoken about tonight (mass killings) is
the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team. They got themselves together in
the mid-1980s, when it became politically possible to investigate the fate
of the so-called “Disappeared” of the 1970s. Horrified at the shambles the
police were making of exhumations, they formed themselves into a group of
archaeologists and forensic anthropologists. They impressed on the
authorities that their methods would allow better opportunities for
identifying specific individuals, by proving the association between
artifacts and particular skeletons. It wasn’t enough to merely dig up the
skeletons and take them to a morgue for identification. This dedicated
team has lent its services to authorities elsewhere in South America and
elsewhere in the world.

The Boston based Physicians for Human Rights has been approached by the
United Nations to assist with prosecutions relating to atrocities in both
the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. As their title indicates, they are
primarily a forensic team of volunteers. But they routinely incorporate
the services of archaeologists. I am privileged to have been invited last
month to join their group of experts, though I can’t say it is an
invitation that I accepted with relish.

The primary archaeological interests of my career have been twofold –
environmental changes at the end of the Ice Age and models for computer
aided multivariate analysis of archaeological data. These remain my two
chief archaeological interests. But as you can see, the invitation to work
in Ukraine dragged me away from those worthwhile, but relatively arcane
pursuits, to a nasty awakening in the archaeology of the 20th Century.
Nasty it may have been, but I have not regretted it. Even though no
Australian has been found guilty by the courts of the atrocities we
investigated, we have brought forward new material evidence of three
particular episodes in the holocaust that no persons, even those labouring
on behalf of Holocaust denial, have sought to contradict.

Material evidence is harder to contradict than memories.
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:53 EST 2005
Article: 1040699 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:49:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place in a
large city in broad daylight more than sixty years ago and affected tens
of thousands of people. The ruins of the Great Choral Synagogue on Gogol
St. in central Riga, torched by a
Nazi-instigated crowd with refugees in the basement on July 4, 1941,
remind any visitor to Riga of what was going on there during the Nazi
occupation. So do the former Jewish ghetto, virtually untouched since the
war, and the Old Jewish Cemetery, with its massive headstone and fresh
flowers every day, marking the grave of the more than 1,000 people who
were shot in conjunction with the liquidation of the ghetto or on the way
>from there to the killing site at Rumbula.

> Your request is ridiculous and cynical – exactly the same as if you were
> suggesting to a person in former/existing totalitarian country to go and
> fulfill his/her “civic duty”.

You are claiming that the Riga municipal authorities as well as the tens
of thousands of inhabitants of the city who lost siblings, pareants,
relatives, and friends in cunjunction with the massacre are the victims of
a hoax or are outright liars.

What would be your explanation for some telltale entries about the
massacre in Himmler’s records.

November 30, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html:

December 1, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html. The entry for
the telephone call at 13:15 includes “Exekutionen in Riga”.

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/

As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
yielded more than 500 bodies.

Source: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html

<quote>
INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES – THE ARCHAEOLOGlCAL EVIDENCE p.39

Richard Wright

p.40 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

I never found myself dwelling on this story told to me in my childhood.
Indeed I had virtually forgotten it – until we found ourselves excavating
in the grave at Serniki.

THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.41

At the end the Soviets were working on, the bodies lay face down, parallel
and in rows. At our end the bodies were much more disorganised. There
seemed to have been panic at our end.

In a generally empty area at the middle of the grave we found bodies that
had fewer bullets to the head. Some had been clubbed.

p.42 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

We felt a grim satisfaction in revealing that the massive grave was much
too large for the number of people in it. The Nazis had obviously hoped
for many more victims.

THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.43

Dr Griffith’s services were required because of the need to work out the
ages of the children, if indeed we found them, from the stages of eruption
of the milk teeth and permanent teeth.

Ustinovka is 500 ESE of Serniki, in the fertile black soil loess belt.
Unlike at Serniki, the locals had only a vague idea of where the grave
might be. There was no sign on the surface.

The flight was to no avail. Nothing showed up. So we had to use mundane
methods.

p.44 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES – THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

There were about 20 children. The youngest one was about six months and
virtually destroyed in the soil except for the teeth. The oldest one was
about 12 or 13 years old.

Thus we were able to get evidence that would have been missed without
attention to scientific methods of excavation. At Ustinovka, maybe even
the grave itself would have been missed.

Material evidence is harder to contradict than memories.
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:55 EST 2005
Article: 1040720 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:58:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
> > What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
> > most of the physical evidence, then the murders that he committed cannot
> > be demonstreted to have taken place. You and I know that this is a crock
> > of bull.
> >
>
> no it is not a “crock of bull” – that’s like justice works. you have to
> prove your allegations, you have to support your case with evidence.

True enough. But the evidence does not have to be *physical* evidence.

> to simply claim that no evidence exist – and that that is the “proof” of
> all evidence was “destroyed” is nonsense.

I never claimed that. The mass grave at the Old Jewish Cemetery in central
Riga, containing the more than 1,000 bodies of those who did not make it
to the killing site, as well as the various bits of charred human remains
found in the vicinity of the Rumbula killing site, are physical evidence
of the massacre. Nevertheless, they are virtually worthless if there is no
wider context to relate them to.

The massacre took place in broad daylight on two days, for which reason
there are eyewitnesses and photographs. Preparing for the massacre
required moving the Riga Jews to the ghetto, and moving the non-Jewish
inhabitants of the area made the ghetto into other housing, arrangements
that involved more than twenty thousand people and generated reams of
paperwork. Jeckeln was called to Riga by Himmler and housed with his
fifty-man staff at the Ritterhaus, another operation that generated
paperwork. Jecklen had 22,000 rounds of ammunition sent to the killing
site, another action that generated paperwork in the form of orders, bills
of lading, and supervision by security forces. On both killing days the
Jews in the ghetto were marched along Moscow Road in broad daylight, and
those who tried to escape were shot by SS men or Latvian policemen, once
again actions that generate paperwork. The bodies of the people killed in
the ghetto and along Moscow Road on November 30 and December 8 had to be
picked up, loaded onto carts, and transported to the mass grave at the Old
Jewish cemetery. The Riga municipal authorities had to be informed of the
dimensions and content of the mass grave, since cemeteries and graves are
potential health hazards. Finally, the property and assests confiscated
>from the murdered Jews had to be collected, sorted, washed, stored,
guarded, evaluated and either sold off or shipped back to Germany.

The amount of non-physical evidence form this particular massacre is
*overwhelming*. Additional forensic evidence would be nothing more but
icing on an already quite convincing cake.

> and the whole nonsense is based on your fallacy that someone destroyed
> “most of the physical evidence” – how ? it is technically impossible
> to destroy “most of the physical evidence” of your alleged massacre of
> 25 000 jews.

You dig up the graves and burn their contents. This was done at the
Rumbula killing site, but not at the Old Jewish cemetery in the former
Riga ghetto.

> even if someone exhumed and burned the bodies – where are
> the human remains/bones/ashes ? and where are the enormous massgraves
> with volume for cca. 25 000 victims ?

Exhuming the graves and burning their contents did not destroy all
physical evidence. Nobody denies the fact that it is still easy to find
charred human remains at the Rumbula killing site.

> the answer is very simple – you do not view that alleged massacre as a
> real event/crime – to you it is something holy/sacred – outside of the
> material world – therefore
> you simply reject any rational request for evidence.

No. My view is that there is a confluence of evidence, including forensic
evidence, that mass murders of Jews took place in Riga on July 4, 1941
(the torching of the Great Choral Synagogue), on November 30, 1941 (the
first wave of the Rumbula massacre), and on December 8, 1941 (the second
wave of the Rumbula massacre). Little more than a week later, the last
public mass murder of Latvian Jews took place at Liepaja. This was both
filmed and photographedby the Nazis.

> it simply
> “happened” because you want and you need it aa a base for your agenda.

I have no agenda. I have visited Latvis several times, and I am familiar
with the former Jewish ghetto in Riga, the killing site at Rumbula, and
the documentary evidence that was generated at the time. Like the Latvian
president and government, and the American ambassador to Latvia, I see no
reason to question the historical factuality of the Rumbula massacre.

>
> > As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
> > yielded more than 500 bodies.
>
> 500 bodies ?
> why “Jeckeln-type” “documents” do talk about HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of
> victims, but the actual forensic evidence is 500 bodies ?!?

The graves at Ustonovka and Serniki are two, small, obscure graves. There
are many more of them. What is significant is that the victims in both of
them were in ordered, sardine-can-like stacks, this indicating application
of the Jeckeln *Sardinenpackung* methodology of mass murder.

<snip>

Regards.
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:56 EST 2005
Article: 1040801 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:54:23 +0300
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
> No order to kill Jews was ever issued by any German, military or
> civilian.

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/ezergailis_preface.html

<quote>
<deletions>
The Nazi agencies responsible for the killing of the Jews in Latvia
started a misinformation program about the killing even before the
killings took place. Hitler’s refusal to attach a signature to his
order is an early indication. Thus a vacuum of information was created at
the very top. The paper trail, as to who ordered whom, was broken, and
that has allowed for a variety of interpretations ever since. As there
were no written orders from above to the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen,
so there were no written orders from the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen
to the commanders of the Einsatzkommandos or any of the subsidiary
Sicherheitspolizei und SD (in the future referred to as Security Police
and SD or simply as SD) units: Teilkommandos, Schiefikommandos,
Rollkommandos. Nor are there any written orders from the German commandos
to the Latvian commandos or police forces. The irony is that the rules of
omerta held firm for orders and information flowing down, but the system
broke down in the flow of information from the field to the Main Office of
Security Police and SD in Berlin, the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA).
Owing to the breakdown of secrecy, we have inherited the Ereignismeldungen
(EM) (frequently translated as Situation Reports), summaries of the
Einsatzgruppen daily activities. In addition to the Ereignismeldungen
there are also the two Stahlecker’s Consolidated Reports (15 October
1941 and 30 January 1942) that reveal the murderous Nazi design in Latvia.

> > The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was
> then
> > called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in
> German
> > occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact.
>
>
>
> Oh God! Another “indisputable historical fact” for which no evidence
> exists. No record of mass murder in the Ukraine by Jackeln exists. This
> is standard holocaust propaganda.
>
<deletions>

The summary below is based on reports from the Einsatzgruppen recorded in
the so-called Ereignismeldungen or Event Reports compiled by Heydrich’s
staff in Berlin. One hundred and ninety-five Event Reports were compiled
between June 23, 1941, and April 24, 1942.

Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp

<quote>
3.2 HSSPF Russia South and Einsatzgruppe C

3.2.1 In the course of extending the murders into the southern part of
the Front, the HSSPF Jeckeln as well as the lst SS Brigade played a major
role. The 1st SS Brigade, which was under the command of Jeckeln, moved
to the murder of Jewish women when they took on a “cleansing operation”
between July 27 and July 30 in the area of Zwiahel. In Jeckeln’s command
to the Brigade it was stated that – apart from Front Commissars – also
suspicious “female agents or Jews…were to be handled appropriately”.

3.2.2 As a result of this “action”, the Brigade reported that they had
arrested, among others, 1658 Jews; 800 people, “Jewish men and women from
16 to 60 years old” had been shot. Subsequent to this “action”, on 4
August, units of this Brigade carried out further “actions” and shot 1385
people under the same pretext, among them 275 women and 1109 Jewish men.

3.2.3 In the following weeks Jeckeln ordered the lst. SS Brigade to
carry out further “cleansing operations”. Members of the Brigade shot 232
Jews on 7 August in Tschernjychow, 300 Jewish men and 139 women in
Sarokonstantinow around 20 August, and “1009 Jews and Red Army men” and in
the period between 2 September and 7 September .”

3.2.4 At the end of August, the Brigade under Jeckeln’s command carried
out a massacre in Kamenetsk-Podolsk which exceeded all previous
“actions”. According to the event report from 22 August, “a Commando of
the Higher SS and Police Leader… shot 23,600 Jews” (men, women and
children) within 3 days. The victims of Kamenetsk-Podolsk were mainly Jews
who had been deported over the border into the newly conquered area in
Galicia by Hungarian officials as “burdensome foreigners”. The proof that
this massacre was systematically prepared is documented in the minutes of
the meeting which was held on 25 August at the Headquarters of the
Generalquartermaster of the Army in Vinniza. On this occasion, an
officer of the staff of the Generalquartermaster referred to a pledge by
Jeckeln to complete the liquidation of the Jews deported to the area of
Kamenetsk-Podolsk by 1 September. From the number of Jews deported from
Hungary, 18.000, it can be concluded that about 14.000 to 16.000 were shot
at the end of August about 15 Km from Kamenetsk-Potolsk by Jeckeln’s staff
company, the Police Battalion 320 as well as by Ukrainian and Hungarian
militia. In addition, thousands of local Jews were shot.

3.2.5 After the “altogether 44,125 people, mostly Jews” who were shot,
in August alone, according to the event reports of the “Formation of the
Higher SS and Police Leaders”, Jeckeln continued the massacres; in the
first days of September, in Berditschw, as stated in event reports, “1303
Jews, among them 876 Jewish women over 12 years old” were killed by a
Commando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders Russia South. The murder of
over 3000 Jews still living in the ghetto of Shitomir, on 19 September, in
which the SK 4a was involved, must also have been largely Jeckeln’s
responsibility.

3.2.6 Finally, Jeckeln played a leading role in the massacre of the Jews
of Kiev at Babi Jar, where the SK 4a, the Police Regiment South with the
Battalion 45 and 303 and a Company of the Waffen SS were involved. This
massacre, by which 33,771 Jews were murdered according to the event
reports, was planned on September 16 in a meeting where Jeckeln, the Chief
of the EG C, Rasch, the Leader of the SK 4a, Blobel as well as the City
Commander of the Wehrmacht were present. This mass murder was justified
as “retaliation” for a major fire in the city that was supposedly set by
Jews.

3.2.7 Jeckeln also played a central role in the massacre of the Jews of
Dnjepreprotowsk on 13 October, where according to the event reports, out
of some 30.000 Jews in the city, “approximately 10.000 were shot by a
commando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders on 13 October, 1941”.

In this series of massacres under Jeckeln’s personal management up to
October, 1941, more than 100.000 people were murdered.

3.2.8 This series of mass murders are the basis for the activities of EG
C and the Police Battalion placed in the southern parts of the occupied
Soviet Union in late summer and fall. These units were already in part
directly involved in the major “actions” initiated by Jeckeln. Jeckeln
was the one who gave the decisive impulse which lead the commandos and
police battalions to go over to the total extermination of the Jewish
population.

3.2.9 – Erwin Schulz, the Commando Leader of EK 5 testified during his
stay in Berditschew (where the unit was stationed between the end of July
and the middle of August) that Rasch, Commander of the EG C, had called
him to Shitomir in order to explain to him that not only those Jews who
were employed but also their wives and children were to be shot. This
order, according to Rasch, came from Jeckeln.

3.2.10 The total eradication of all inhabitants of a location, including
the women and children by the EK 5 can be documented as of the middle of
September. On 15 September, the town of Bogusslaw, as explained in an
event report, “because of the execution of 322 Jews and 13 communist
functionaries” was declared “free of Jews.” On 22 and 23 September, the EK
5 in Uman carried out a “major action” in which, according to their own
report, 1412 Jews were shot. In Cybulow on 25 September, 70 Jews were
shot, 537 Jews (men, women and children) on 4 October in Perejeslas and in
Koschewatoje shortly thereafter “all Jews of this place.” were executed.

3.2.11 On the basis of the generalized order to murder issued in August,
the number of the people killed by the EK 5 increased considerably: For
the period from 7 September to 5 October, the Commando reported that “207
political functionaries, 112 saboteurs and looters as well as 8800 Jews
had been liquidated”. A few weeks later, the Commando reported that “The
number of those executed by the EK 5 was altogether 15.110 on 20 October
1941.

3.2.12 – The EK 6 (sub-unit Kronberger) shot Jewish women starting in
October in Kriwoj-Rog, after Himmler had inspected this place on 3
October. On 20 October, Krivoj Rog was declared “free of Jews” (
judenfrei ).” In the event report of 19 November Commando 6 stated that
“1000 further Jews had been shot”.

3.2.13 – In the area of Shitomir from the beginning of August, the
Commando 4 a shot women in great numbers, shortly thereafter also
children. Thus also in Bjelaja-Zerkow 500 men and women were shot on 8 or
9 August, the Jewish children on 19 August and on 22 August, by the
advance party of SK 4a, which was scheduled to go to Kiev. According to
the reports of the Commando, in the month of August, in Fastov “the
entire Jewish population aged 12 to 60, altogether 252 head, shot” . In
Radomyschle on 6 September, 1668 Jewish men, women and children were
executed. Also in Shitomir, their main base where a ghetto had been set
up, the Commando proceeded to murder all Jewish inhabitants regardless of
age or sex. After multiple mass executions in the second half of August
with several thousand people as victims, 3145 Jews were shot in the course
of liquidating the ghetto on 19 September 1941, according to the report of
the Commando.

3.2.14 – The Police Battalion 45, which belonged to the Police Regiment
South, proceeded to murder Jews regardless of their age or sex at the end
of July-beginning of August. The first victims were the entire Jewish
population of the town of Schepetowka, where the Battalion had been based
between 26 July and 1 August, 1941; according to the declaration of the
Battalion Commander, Besser, made after the war, this involved 40 to 50
men and women, probably however even more. Besser declared on this point
that he had been following an order of the Commander of the Police
Regiment South, who in turn referred to a general order for liquidation
issued by Himmler.

3.2.15 In the following weeks, the Battalion repeated this pattern in
other Ukrainian villages: among others, it killed Jewish men and women in
Slawuta (according to the declaration of the HSSPF Russia South this
included 522 persons), in Sudylkow (471 dead) as well as in Berditschew
(1000 victims). When Besser’s successor, Rosenbauer, was being briefed on
his tasks as Battalion Commander by the Higher SS and Police Leader of
Russia South, Jeckeln, he was given very clear instructions, according to
his own statements: “Jeckeln said that the order of Reichsführer SS
Himmler was the basis for the solution of the Judenfrage: The Ukrainians
should become a Helot (slave) people who work only for us. We had no
interest, however, in having the Jews multiply: therefore the Jewish
population had to be exterminated.”

3.2.16 – Also the Police Battalion 314, which belonged to the Police
Regiment South as well, shot women and children as early as July. This
can be documented for the first time in the case of a company of the
Battalion on 22 July in a place in the area of Kovel: in the private diary
of a member of the Battalion it is stated that on this day 217 people,
among them entire families, had been shot.
</quote>

SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
(http://www.vernetztes-gedaechtnis.de/jeckeln.htm) distinguished himself
as a mass murderer first as commander of the 1st SS Brigade of
Einsatzgruppe C in southern Russia and Ukraine during the summer of 1941,
then as the Higher Police Chief in Ostland and northern Russia from the
autumn of 1941 until the end of the war in 1945. His career can be
followed in documents generated by the German military and civilian
bureaucracies
[http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html]. He
cannot simply be dismissed as never having existed or never having
committed criminal acts.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:57 EST 2005
Article: 1040804 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:16:03 +0300
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] wrote:

> Apparently there were many pogroms committed by the locals, some
> Latvians.
> >From the Jewish/German newspaper Hagalil:
> “Letten, die Juden mordeten, *bevor* die Deutschen Besatzer im Juni
> 1941
> Lettland besetzten, und danach mit deutscher Hilfe ihre bestialischen
> Taten fortsetzten, wurden gern in die SS-Einheit integriert.”
> (Latvians who murdered Jews before the German occupiers arrived in June
> 1941 and then continued their brutal deeds with German help were often
> integrated in SS-units)
> http://hagalil.org/hagalil/archiv/99/03/letten.htm
>
> The pogroms occurred in all Baltic states,

There was only one pogrom in Estonia, the burning of a synagogue in Pärnu,
and only a few in Latvia.

> East Poland, White Russia
> and the Ukraina. People suffered under the Soviet occupation and let it
> out at the Jews when the Soviets were retreating.

Not without some crafty scapegoating by the Nazis, who propagandized to
the locals that *all* Jews were responsible for Bolshevism and should be
collectively punished for it.

> The instructions given to the Einsatzgrupen were clear:
> This conclusion is strengthened by the contents of an order dated July
> 2, 1941, issued by Heydrich himself to the H=F6here SS und
> Polizeif=FChrer in the occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich repeated to
> them in summary form the instructions he had already issued directly to
> the Einsatzgruppen. The relevant passage of this document, which only
> surfaced in the 1960s although its authenticity has since been verified
> by specialists in the field, states:
> EXECUTIONS.

Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand “executions” [=
Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.

> The following will be executed:
> Functionaries of the Comintern (most of who are simply professional
> Communist politicians).
> Functionaries of higher and medium rank and “radicals” in the Party,
> the Central Committee, and the regional and district committees.
> Commissars of the People. Jews in the Service of the Party and the
> State. Other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers,
> assassins, agitators, etc.)…
> No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be
> started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied
> territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless,
> all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these
> local “self defence” activities are not able to claim later that they
> were merely following instructions or had been promised political
> protection. [167]
>
<deletions>
>
> I am familiar with these police decodes. It was the subject of many
> discussions on other forums. But where does it say, that these people
> were to be shot? Don’t you jump here to conclusions?
>
> Anyway, I did check Himmler’s Dienstkalender for that date of
> 4/12/1941 (European date).
>
> Here is what he entered for that date:
> 11.45 Gmund Gudrun
> 12.00 SS-Oberf=FChrer Brack
> 12.h Reichsmarschall Berlin
> 13.10 Staatssekr. Muhs
> 13.30 Mittagessen
> (Himmler mittags als Gast bei Hitler zusammen mit Rosenberg und
> Bouhler)
>
> There is no entry about Jeckeln at all. Neither for the week before
> this date nor for the week after.

There is reference to a meeting scheduled for 21.30 with Obergruppenführer
Jeckeln concerning the Jewish question [= Judenfrage] in Himmler’s desk
diary for December 4, 1941 [facsimile at
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html].

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:57 EST 2005
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Friedrich Jeckeln a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Eugene Holman) wrote:

<deletions>
> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
> (http://www.vernetztes-gedaechtnis.de/jeckeln.htm) distinguished himself
> as a mass murderer first as commander of the 1st SS Brigade of
> Einsatzgruppe C in southern Russia and Ukraine during the summer of 1941,
> then as the Higher Police Chief in Ostland and northern Russia from the
> autumn of 1941 until the end of the war in 1945. His career can be
> followed in documents generated by the German military and civilian
> bureaucracies
> [http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html]. He
> cannot simply be dismissed as never having existed or never having
> committed criminal acts.

[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]

SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckeln (1895-1946) is not an everyday name
among students of the Holocaust
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z3.html).
However, he played a key role during the first phase of the Holocaust,
when German policy towards Jews in occupied Eastern Europe was to identify
and ghettoize them, and then kill as many of them as possible, often in
semi-public mass-shootings on the outskirts of cities.

Appointed chief of police for Ostland (= Nazi-occupied Estonia, Latvia,
and Lithuania) and Northrn Russia, Friedrich Jeckeln played an important
part in planning, organizing, and overseeing the implementation of such
actions in which several hundred thousand Jews were killed. Jeckeln thus
bears the responsibility for being one of the major Nazi mass
murderers.

What kind of a man was Friedrich Jeckerln? The net contains an archive
with scanned copies of 228 documents pertaining to Jeckeln
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html). They
trace his career and shed some light on the life and personality of a
figure who, unlike Rudolf Höß, is an unsung figure of the Holocaust
despite having supervised a substantial part of the day-to-day work of
implementing it and being responsible, like Höß, for having organized the
deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. Not
surprisingly, Jeckeln received recognition for his work from his
employers. In August 1944 he was awarded the gem-studded Knight’s Cross by
Hitler. A year later he was in a Soviet prison as a war criminal along
with the other Nazis who had administered the Baltics from Riga during the
war. Jeckeln was hanged as a war criminal on February 3, 1946
(http://www.heritagefilms.com/LATVIA.html).

According to his excerpt from SS records
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/do9c12/jec228z3.html),
Friedrich Jeckeln was born at Hornberg (Baden) on February 2, 1895. He
began his military service in 1914 just before the outbreak of WW II,
served through the entire war, rising to the rank of lieutenant, and was
released on January 20, 1919. He studied and became an engineer, and when
he was 23 years old he married Charlotte Hirsch, a half-Jew who had an
Aryan mother and a Jewish father, Paul Hirsch. The couple had three
children, but they went their separate ways in 1926. Jeckeln eventually
remarried and had two more children. He was ordered by the local court to
pay maintenance for his estranged family, but he had lost his job as an
engineer and could not find a new one. The bailiffs were unable to seize
any assets from him, and the children’s grandfather contributed what he
could towards the family’s support.

Friedrich Jeckeln became Nazi Party member no. 163378 on October 10,
1929. He joined the SS shortly after on December 1, 1930, and rose
quickly to the ranks of Standartenführer (June 22, 1931), Oberführer
(Sept. 22, 1931), and Gruppenführer (February 4, 1933).

On February 5, 1932, Jeckeln’s estranged wife wrote a personal letter to
Adolf Hitler, who had, of course, not yet become the leader of Germany.
This letter,
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec16z3.html)
written by a half-Jew who considers herself a German is worth reproducing
here in its entirety:

<quote>
To Mr. Adolf Hitler.
Since your movement is a genuinely German one and you want to help the
Germans, perhaps it would also be possible for you to help three German
children obtain what is their due. Your Standartenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln, living in Hannover, has been separated for almost seven years,
that is to say, is living apart from his family. According to a court
decision he, as the person recognized as responsible for the breakdown of
the marriage, has the duty to provide for his first wife and his three
children. Forced by a legal action to take an oath of disclosure, he has
not paid a penny for his children. Instituting new legal action would, of
course, produce no further results, despite the fact that Mr. Jeckeln,
being a Standartenführer, certainly has an income. Up until now, the
children’s grandfather has been providing for them, but since the hard
times have resulted in him losing all of his assets in agriculture, it is
impossible for him. On March 5 our plot of land is to be auctioned off and
as a single mother it will then be almost impossible for me to provide for
three chilren in these difficult times, and my parents are also old. My
request is that you make Mr. Jeckeln hand over a part of his income as
Standartenführer for his children.

Respectfully,
Mrs. Charlotte Jeckeln
Herzberg, Post Gottswalde
Danziger Niederung
Freistaat Danzig
</quote>

What action Hitler took is unclear, but in 1933 Jeckeln rose to the rank
of Gruppenführer, and by 1936 he was SS-Obergruppenführer, putting him in
the top ranks of the SS generals.

When the war broke out in 1939 Jeckeln served on the front in France. When
Germany attacked the USSR, Jeckeln was immediately dispatched by Himmler
to the Ukraine, where, where he was appointed Senior Chief of the Police
and SS for southern Russia and the Ukraine, as well as commander of the
1st SS Brigade of Einsatzkommando C to oversee the extermination actions
against Jews which had begun there
[http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp]. While there,
he perfected the efficient mode of combining shooting with self-burial
which he called “Sardinenpackung”
[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0DB153FF933A05755C0A9649C8B63].

Jeckeln’s career continued with him being appointed Senior Chief of the
Police and SS for Ostland (= Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and northern
Russia. He was stationed in Riga where he remained until August 1944.
During his tenure the Einsatzkommandos killed more then 130,000 Jews in
the Baltics and adjacent areas
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm],
and tens of thousands more were killed in
carefully organized mass shootings organized in various cities and towns
across the Baltics (see, e,g the map of the ass murders that took place in
Lithuania at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec211z3.html, and
the listing of and military report on Jews and others killed in the
Baltics under Jeckeln’s supervisions and coordination as of Dec. 1, 1941 at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec122z3.html –
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec129z3.html). Many
of these mass-executions were implemented using Jeckeln’s famous method:

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):

In the forest adjoining the camp [Salaspils], graves had been prepared by
the inmates. After they had undressed, the victims were either shot
immediately at the edge of the graves or else they were ordered to lie
face down between the legs of those already shot, and were then killed.
The latter method saved much-needed space. It was invented by
Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckein, who called it Sardinenpackung
(sardine packaging).

This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>

Jeckeln is perhaps best known for having organized the liquidation of the
Jewish ghetto in Riga which began on November 1941 and ended a week later,
with more than 25,500 Jews from Riga and Berlin being shot and buried
using the efficient Sardinenpackung method.

The best treatment in English of the Riga killings is Andrew Ezergailis,
“The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944”, The Historical Institute of Latvia,
Riga, 1996, pgs. 239 – 270 [downloadable at
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]. This treatment is
based upon military, police,
and municipal records, as well as on an analysis of the various evidence
presented at trials dealing with the Riga shgooting held after the war in
Latvia (1946) and Hamburg (1973, 1975).

It involved identifying, ghettoizing, and dispossessing the entire Jewish
community of Riga, and marching them, 25,000 people, in columns of five
all day long on two days to a rather public place – a hillock some 250
meters from a local railway station and well within seeing and hearing
distance of that station. The entire city of Riga was talking about it by
the afternoon of November 30, 1941:

The mayor of Nazi-occupied Riga (Kommissarischer Oberbuergermeisier) from
1941 to 1944 was a Baltic German, Hugo Wittrock, who detested Latvian
nationalists. He wrote in his memoirs (published posthumously, Lueneburg
1979, pp. 37-38):

source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
1941 was drawing to a close when a frightful event happened in Riga. On
the second Sunday of Advent rumors spread throughout the city that on
Hoherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer Jeckeln’s orders, Jews had been taken from
the ghetto to a place about 10 kilometers outside Riga, and SS men had
shot them all – men, women, and children – in a mass grave and covered up
the bodies. It was said thousands were shot. When the frightful rumors
turned out to be true and details of the perpetuated crime became known,
there was a general feeling of shock about this inhuman action in the
city…. The local inhabitants… perhaps because of religious feelings
condemned the merciless shooting of unarmed men, women, and children, and
were deeply distressed at this ungodly cruelty. When shortly thereafter I
made the mood in Riga known to the Reichsminister in Berlin [Wittrock’s
friend Alfred Rosenberg], I understood from his responses that the
frightful bloodshed was ordered and carried out over his head by higher
authorities.
</quote>

Gruppenführer Jeckeln organized the action, broke it down into
subcomponents, drew up the timetable, and selected the killing site. He
also coordinated this action with his superiors in Berlin so that a
trainload of German Jews from Berlin would arrive at the killing site at
Rumbula at 6 in the morning to be killed before the arrival of the first
Latvian Jews.

More than 1,700 people are known to have participated in the action,
including several hundred Latvian policemen from the precincts along the
route to the killing site who were issued special orders concerning their
responsibilities on November 30 and December 8. Members of the Latvian
component of the Sicherheitsdienst, the Riga district police, and the
Annas iela battalion of military police were also issued instructions to
participate in various capacities.

>From Jeckeln’s staff there were:
– Oberstormführer Herbert Degenhart, who accompanied Jeckeln during the
planning stage and, during the implementation stage, communicated and
explained Jeckeln’s orders to the other participants.
– Unterstormführer Ernst Hemicker, the designer of the Rumbula pits.
– Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, collector of valuables at the pits.
– Sturmbannführer Erich Zimmermann, in charge of transport.
– Johannes Zingler, one of the marksmen at the pits.
– Hauptmann Heinrich Oberwinder, coordinator of the work of the Latvian
and German police that participated in the Rumbula massacre. In
particular, he issued detailed orders to the Latvian precinct police who
provided many of the guards who supervised the ten-kilometer line of Jews
marching from the ghetto in central Riga to the killing site.
– Lieutenant Fredrich Jahnke organized the ghettoization of Rigas Jews in
September and October of 1941, as well as the liquidation of the ghetto in
conjunction with the mass shooting.

Sturmbannführer Bruns was eventually taken as a prisoner of war by the
British. He was secretly recorded talking about the Riga massacre in
considerable detail by British intelligence in April, 1945
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html].

The Riga massacre was Jeckeln’s finest hour, his greatest achievement. It
also rvelealed that mass shooting was not a feasible means of resolving
the ‘Jewish problem’. Jeckeln’s very success proved the logistical
problems and practical limitations on mass shootings. It was a high point
in the first phase of the exterminational phase of the Holocaust, but it
also aroused issues which resulted in the Germans deciding to develp new
and more discrete methodologies. The Riga massacre was the greatest, but
also the last, of the large-scale (= 10-E4 victims), semi-public
massacres in the parts of Nazi-occupied Europe under Jeckeln’s
supervision.

Jeckeln proved himself to be a capable administartor and brave soldier.
But the war took its toll on him. In a handwritten personal letter to
Himmler dated May 18, 1944, Jeckeln informs the Reichsführer that his
second son from his first marriage, Klaus, who had a half-Jewish mother
and an SS-Obergruppenführer as his father, was had been missing for three
months and had presumably died a Heldentod – hero’s death – on the Eastern
Front
in the Ukraine. His youngest son, Dieter, had died when undergoing medical
treatment for a inflammation of the brain on May 13, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z68.html). He
recived a personal note of condolence from Himmler on June 1, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z177.html. A
few months later Riga fell to the Soviets, and Jeckeln was sitting in one
of the Riga prison’s which he had once administered as a war criminal.

He defended his actions as follows:

Source:
https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245

<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]

The shootings were carried out under the direction of
Colonel Dr. Lange, Commander of the SD and Gestapo in
Latvia. Knecht was in charge of security at the liquidation
sites.[2] I, Jeckeln, took part in the shootings on three
occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in
Riga.

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to
the liquidation site. Near the pits, they had to deposit
their overclothes, which were washed, sorted, and shipped
back to Germany. Jews-men, women, and children- passed
through police cordons on their way to the pits, where they
were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto
in Riga had been liquidated. And when I was in Loetzen,
East Prussia, in December 1941, I reported in person,
too.[3] Himmler was satisfied with the results. He said that
more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia, and these
| were to be liquidated by me also.

Q: Go into more detail.

A: At the end of January 1942,[4] I was at Himmler’s
headquarters in Loetzen, East Prussia, to discuss
organizational matters regarding the Latvian SS legions.
There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish convoys
were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries.
The destination point would be the Salaspils concentration
camp, which lay one and a quarter miles from Riga in the
direction of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he had not yet
determined how he would have them exterminated: whether to
have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and
quicker death. Himmler said he would think it over and then
give orders later through Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the
Salaspils camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews
>from this camp were exterminated. But I would like to make
an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

A: I would like to state for the record that Goering shares
in the guilt for the liquidations of Jewish convoys that
arrived from other countries. In the first half of February
1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this letter he
wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten himself involved
in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped
to the East for annihilation only with Goering’s approval.

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in
the Jewish liquidations in Salaspils.

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of
Jews in Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes
me an accessory to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot
in the Salaspils camp by forces recruited from my SD and
Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in
charge of the shootings. Other officers who reported to me
on the shootings of Jews in the camp were the commander of
the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General Jost;
Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to
arrive per week, all subject to liquidation.

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be
known too, isn’t that correct?

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures.
The first Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November
1941. Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys arrived at
regular intervals. I
believe that in November 1941, no more than three convoys
arrived in all, but during the next seven months, from
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys arrived
each month.
Overall, in eight months, no less than fifty-five and no
more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a
total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added,
however, that before my arrival in
Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and in
White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this
fact.[5]

Q: By whom, specifically?

A: Stahlecker; Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General Schroder,
the SS and Police Leader in Latvia;
Major General Moeller the SS and Police Leader in Estonia;
and Major General Wysocki the SS and Police Leader in
Lithuania.

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

A: Schroeder reported to me that over and above those Jews
who had been exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an
additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews were exterminated in
Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings. Moeller
reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as
the Jewish question was concerned.

The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all
about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to nil. The
greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported
that 100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated-shot-in
Lithuania, on Stahlecker’s orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish
exterminations were overseen by the commander of the SD and
Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger. Later Jaeger
told me that he had become neurotic as a result of these
shootings. Jaeger was pensioned off and left his post for
treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity
of 190,500 to 253,500.[6]

Notes:

1. Minutes from Jeckeln’s interrogation on 14 December 1945
(Major Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter),
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in
Latvia.

3. I.e., to Himmler’s “Hochwald” headquarters in Loetzen.

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. – 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS
appointments book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten
entry, re: his telephone conversation “from the Wolfsschanze
17 [i.e., 5:00 EM.] SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the
concentration camps” NS 19/neu 1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and
Police Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln,
personnel file, Berlin Document Center. A second promotion
to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section, “Ostland,”
occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police
of Riga (dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger
reported the following from Kovno on 9 February 1942:

“Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A:
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464”
(Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).
</quote>

Jeckeln was hanged in Riga on February 3, 1946

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:39:58 EST 2005
Article: 1040813 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.glorb.com!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Friedrich Jeckeln a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:51:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Eugene Holman) wrote:

[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]

Appointed chief of police for Ostland (= Nazi-occupied Estonia, Latvia,
and Lithuania) and Northern Russia, Friedrich Jeckeln played an important
role in planning, organizing, and overseeing the implementation of such
actions in which several hundred thousand Jews were killed. Jeckeln thus
bears the responsibility for being one of the major Nazi mass murderers.

What kind of a man was Friedrich Jeckeln? The net contains an archive
with scanned copies of 228 documents pertaining to Jeckeln
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html). They
trace his career and shed some light on the life and personality of a
figure who, unlike Rudolf Höß, is an unsung figure of the Holocaust
despite having supervised a substantial part of the day-to-day work of
implementing it and being responsible, like Höß, for having organized the
deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. Not
surprisingly, Jeckeln received recognition for his work from his
employers. In August 1944 he was awarded the gem-studded Knight’s Cross by
Hitler. A year later he was in a Soviet prison as a war criminal along
with the other Nazis who had administered the Baltics from Riga during the
war. Jeckeln was hanged as a war criminal on February 3, 1946
(http://www.heritagefilms.com/LATVIA.html).

Respectfully,
Mrs. Charlotte Jeckeln
Herzberg, Post Gottswalde
Danziger Niederung
Freistaat Danzig
</quote>

What action Hitler took is unclear, but in 1933 Jeckeln rose to the rank
of Gruppenführer, and by 1936 he was SS-Obergruppenführer, putting him in
the top ranks of the SS generals.

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):

This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>

He defended his actions as follows:

Source:
https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245

<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to
the liquidation site. Near the pits, they had to deposit
their overclothes, which were washed, sorted, and shipped
back to Germany. Jews-men, women, and children- passed
through police cordons on their way to the pits, where they
were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

Q: Go into more detail.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and
quicker death. Himmler said he would think it over and then
give orders later through Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the
Salaspils camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews
>from this camp were exterminated. But I would like to make
an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in
the Jewish liquidations in Salaspils.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to
arrive per week, all subject to liquidation.

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be
known too, isn’t that correct?

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures.
The first Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November
1941. Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys arrived at
regular intervals. I
believe that in November 1941, no more than three convoys
arrived in all, but during the next seven months, from
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys arrived
each month.
Overall, in eight months, no less than fifty-five and no
more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a
total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added,
however, that before my arrival in
Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and in
White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this
fact.[5]

Q: By whom, specifically?

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

Notes:

1. Minutes from Jeckeln’s interrogation on 14 December 1945
(Major Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter),
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in
Latvia.

3. I.e., to Himmler’s “Hochwald” headquarters in Loetzen.

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. – 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS
appointments book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police
of Riga (dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger
reported the following from Kovno on 9 February 1942:

Jeckeln was hanged in Riga on February 3, 1946

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:00 EST 2005
Article: 1040826 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!sjc-c01.usenetserver.com!news2.euro.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Friedrich Jeckeln a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:42:16 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Eugene Holman) wrote:

[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]

Respectfully,
Mrs. Charlotte Jeckeln
Herzberg, Post Gottswalde
Danziger Niederung
Freistaat Danzig
</quote>

What action Hitler took is unclear, but in 1933 Jeckeln rose to the rank
of Gruppenführer, and by 1936 he was SS-Obergruppenführer, putting him in
the top ranks of the SS generals.

When the war broke out in 1939 Jeckeln served on the front in France. When
Germany attacked the USSR, Jeckeln was immediately dispatched by Himmler
to the Ukraine, where he was appointed Senior Chief of the Police
and SS for southern Russia and the Ukraine, as well as commander of the
1st SS Brigade of Einsatzkommando C to oversee the extermination actions
against Jews that had begun there
[http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp]. While there,
he perfected the efficient mode of combining shooting with self-burial
which he called “Sardinenpackung”
[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0DB153FF933A05755C0A9649C8B63].

Jeckeln’s career continued with him being appointed Senior Chief of the
Police and SS for Ostland (= Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and Northern
Russia. He was stationed in Riga, where he remained until August 1944.
During his tenure there the Einsatzkommandos killed more then 130,000 Jews
in the Baltics and adjacent areas
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm],
and tens of thousands more were killed in carefully organized mass
shootings implemented in various cities and towns across the Baltics and
adjacent Belorussia (see, e,g the map of the mass murders that took place
in Lithuania at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec211z3.html, and
the listing of and military report on Jews and others killed in the
Baltics under Jeckeln’s supervisions and coordination as of Dec. 1, 1941 at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec122z3.html –
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec129z3.html). Many
of these mass-executions were implemented using Jeckeln’s famous method:

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):

This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>

Jeckeln is perhaps best known for having organized the liquidation of the
Jewish ghetto in Riga, which began on November 1941 and ended a week later,
with more than 25,500 Jews from Riga and Berlin being shot and buried in
the Rumbula forest using the ruthlessly efficient Sardinenpackung
methodology.

The best treatment in English of the Riga killings is Andrew Ezergailis,
“The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944”, The Historical Institute of Latvia,
Riga, 1996, pgs. 239 – 270 [downloadable at
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]. Ezerhgailis’s account is
based upon military, police, and municipal records, as well as on an
analysis of the various evidence presented at trials dealing with the
Rumbula shootings held after the war in Latvia (1946) and Hamburg, West
Germany (1973, 1975).

The Rumbula massacre involved identifying, ghettoizing, and dispossessing
the entire Jewish community of Riga, and marching them, close to 25,000
people, in columns of five all day long on two days to a rather public
place – a hillock some 250 meters from a local railway station and well
within seeing and hearing
distance of that station. The entire city of Riga was talking about it by
the afternoon of November 30, 1941:

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
1941 was drawing to a close when a frightful event happened in Riga. On
the second Sunday of Advent rumors spread throughout the city that on
Hoherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer Jeckeln’s orders, Jews had been taken from
the ghetto to a place about 10 kilometers outside Riga, and SS men had
shot them all – men, women, and children – in a mass grave and covered up
the bodies. It was said thousands were shot. When the frightful rumors
turned out to be true and details of the perpetuated crime became known,
there was a general feeling of shock about this inhuman action in the
city…. The local inhabitants… perhaps because of religious feelings
condemned the merciless shooting of unarmed men, women, and children, and
were deeply distressed at this ungodly cruelty. When shortly thereafter I
made the mood in Riga known to the Reichsminister in Berlin [Wittrock’s
friend Alfred Rosenberg], I understood from his responses that the
frightful bloodshed was ordered and carried out over his head by higher
authorities.
</quote>

Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns was eventually taken as a prisoner of war by the
British. He was secretly recorded talking about the Riga massacre in
considerable detail by British intelligence in April, 1945
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html].

The Riga massacre was Jeckeln’s finest hour, his greatest achievement. It
also revealed that mass shooting was not a feasible means of resolving
the ‘Jewish problem’. Jeckeln’s very success proved the logistical
problems of and practical limitations on mass shootings. It was a high
point in the first phase of the exterminational phase of the Holocaust,
but it also aroused issues which resulted in the Germans deciding to
develp new and more discrete methodologies. The Riga massacre was the
greatest, but also the last, of the large-scale (= 10-E4 victims),
semi-public massacres in the parts of Nazi-occupied Europe under Jeckeln’s
supervision.

Jeckeln proved himself to be a capable administrator and brave soldier.
But the war took its toll on him. In a handwritten personal letter to
Himmler dated May 18, 1944, Jeckeln informs the Reichsführer that his
second son from his first marriage, Klaus, who had a half-Jewish mother
and an SS-Obergruppenführer as his father, was had been missing for three
months and had presumably died a Heldentod – hero’s death – on the Eastern
Front in the Ukraine. His youngest son, Dieter, had died when undergoing medical
treatment for a inflammation of the brain on May 13, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z68.html). He
received a personal note of condolence from Himmler on June 1, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z177.html. A
few months later Riga fell to the Soviets, and Jeckeln was sitting in one
of the Riga prison’s which he had once administered as a war criminal.

He defended his actions as follows:

Source:
https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245

<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to
the liquidation site. Near the pits, they had to deposit
their overclothes, which were washed, sorted, and shipped
back to Germany. Jews-men, women, and children- passed
through police cordons on their way to the pits, where they
were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

Q: Go into more detail.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and
quicker death. Himmler said he would think it over and then
give orders later through Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the
Salaspils camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews
>from this camp were exterminated. But I would like to make
an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in
the Jewish liquidations in Salaspils.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to
arrive per week, all subject to liquidation.

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be
known too, isn’t that correct?

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures.
The first Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November
1941. Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys arrived at
regular intervals. I
believe that in November 1941, no more than three convoys
arrived in all, but during the next seven months, from
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys arrived
each month.
Overall, in eight months, no less than fifty-five and no
more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a
total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added,
however, that before my arrival in
Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and in
White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this
fact.[5]

Q: By whom, specifically?

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

Notes:

1. Minutes from Jeckeln’s interrogation on 14 December 1945
(Major Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter),
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in
Latvia.

3. I.e., to Himmler’s “Hochwald” headquarters in Loetzen.

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. – 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS
appointments book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police
of Riga (dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger
reported the following from Kovno on 9 February 1942:

Jeckeln was hanged in Riga on February 3, 1946

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:01 EST 2005
Article: 1040830 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:55:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
>
> Now, let’s see–you cite one document, and only one, that says “Keine
> Liquidierung,” i.e., “no liquidation,” and you want us to accept that
> one document as proof of mass murder? And you even ask: what could be
> better? Well, I suppose we have to make allowances for holocaust
> believers. That is probably indicative of the real evidence they can
> produce to support the holocaust tale. It makes sense; there is no
> evidence. There can’t be–the holocaust is a lie.

This is from the memoirs of Hugo Wittrock, the mayor (Kommissarischer
Oberbuergermeisier) of Nazi-occupied Riga from 1941 to 1944. Wittrock was
a Baltic German. He wrote the following account of the Rumbula massacre in
his memoirs (published posthumously, Lueneburg 1979, pp. 37-38):

For more on Hugo Wittrock, see
http://www.dialogi.lv/article.php?id=796&t=11&rub=0 [in German].

When Wittrock wrote his memoirs he was not threatened by the Soviets or
the Americans. If the massacre never took place, why should what he wrote
be so consistent with other contemporary accounts? What purpose would it
serve for him, a German serving in a high position in the occupation
administration, to fabricate such a tale?

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:02 EST 2005
Article: 1040864 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:37:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
>
>
> Now, let’s see–you cite one document, and only one, that says “Keine
> Liquidierung,” i.e., “no liquidation,” and you want us to accept that
> one document as proof of mass murder? And you even ask: what could be
> better? Well, I suppose we have to make allowances for holocaust
> believers. That is probably indicative of the real evidence they can
> produce to support the holocaust tale. It makes sense; there is no
> evidence. There can’t be–the holocaust is a lie.

Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/einsatzdec.html

<quote>
Military Tribunal II
Palace of Justice
Nuremberg, Germany
8 April 1948

The United States of America

– vs –

OTTO OHLENDORF, HEINZ JOST, ERICH NAUMANN,
OTTO RASCH, ERWIN SCHULTZ, FRANZ SIX, PAUL
BLOBEL, WALTER BLUME, MARTIN SANDBERGER,
WILLY SEIBERT, EUGEN STEIMLE, ERNST BIBER-
STEIN, WERNER BRAUNE, WALTER HAENSCH,
GUSTAV NOSSKE, ADOLF OTT, EDUARD STRAUCH,
EMIL HAUSSMAN, WOLDEMAR KLINGHOFFER,
LOTHAR FENDLER, WALDEMAR VON RADETZKY,
FELIX RUEHL, HEINZ SCHUBERT, and MATTHIAS
GRAF,
Defendants

<deletions>
Authenticity of Reports

The story of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos is not something
pieced together years after their crimson deeds were accomplished. The
story was written as the events it narrates occurred, and it was authored
by the doers of the deeds. It was written in the terse, exact language
which military discipline requires, and which precision of reporting
dictates.

The maintenance of an army in invaded territory and the planning of future
operations demands cold factuality in reports, which requirement was
rudimentary knowledge to all members of the German Armed Forces. Thus,
every subkommando leader was instructed to inform his kommando leader of
developments and activities in his field of operations, every kommando
leader in
turn accounted to the Einsatzgruppe leader, and the Einsatzgrupp leader by
wireless and by mail reported to the RSHA in Berlin. These accounts were
veiled in secrecy but they were not so covert that they did not come to
the attention of the top ranking military and political officials of the
regime. In fact, at the capital, they were compiled, clasified,
mimeographed and distrubuted to a selected list. These are the reports
which have been submitted in evidence.

A report dated 16 January 1942, accounting for the activities of
Einsatzkommando 2. stated that in Riga on 30 November 1941:

“10,600 Jews were shot.” (NO3405)

In time the authors of the reports apparently tired of the word shot, so,
within the narrow compass of expression allowed in a military report, some
variety was added. A report originating in Latvia read:
“The Higher SS and Police leader in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln,
has meanwhile embarked on a shooting action (Erschiessungsaktion) and on
Sunday, the 30 November 1941, about 4,000 Jews from the Riga Ghetto and an
evacuation transport from the Reich were disposed of.” (NO-3257)
And so that no one could be in doubt as to what was meant by “‘disposed
of”, the word “killed” was added in parentheses.

Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr151.html

<quote>
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 151

The Chief of the Security Police and Security Service

Berlin,
January 5, 1942

65 copies
—————-
(65th copy)

Operational Situation Report USSR No. 151

<deletions>
Erei
All the Jews, without exception, in the General Kommissariats Lithuania
and Latvia, are now interned in ghettos. The Jews of the Riga Ghetto who
are employed by the German Army and civilian authorities, are no longer
permitted to go freely to their places of work. In the morning, they are
picked up in closed columns by authorized personnel who then escort them
>from the ghetto to their work place., and returning them in the evening
the same way.

In Minsk, as well as in Riga, everything is prepared for the reception of
the Jewish transports from Germany. The first transport, composed of Jews
>from Hamburg, arrived in Minsk on November 10, 1941. On the same day, the
Jews were assigned living quarters. It was observed that some of the Jews
had a totally mistaken picture about their future. They imagined, for
example, that they are pioneers and will be used to colonize the East. The
first three transports that were to come to Riga were sent to Kaunas. The
Riga camp that is to admit about 25,000 Jews is being built and will be
completed very soon.

In the meantime, the Higher SS Police in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer
Jeckeln started a [mass] shooting action on Sunday, November 30, 1941. He
removed about 4,000 Jews from the Riga ghetto and from an evacuation
transport of Jews from Germany. (1) The action was originally intended to
be carried out with the forces of the Higher SS and Police Chief; however,
after a few hours, 20 men of Ek 2 who were sent there for security
purposes were also employed in the shooting.

(1) In fact, the action took place on November 30. Of approximately 10,600
victims, 1000 were from a transport of deportees from Berlin, and the rest
>from the ghetto (see Report 156). The remaining Jews were killed a week
later on December 8 (see report 155).

Arad, Yitzak, Shmuel Krakowski and Shmuel Spector, editors. The
Einsatzgruppen Reports. New York: Holocaust Library. 1989, pp. 268-269

</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:02 EST 2005
Article: 1040875 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Friedrich Jeckeln, a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:56:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 301
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Eugene Holman) wrote:

[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]

Respectfully,
Mrs. Charlotte Jeckeln
Herzberg, Post Gottswalde
Danziger Niederung
Freistaat Danzig
</quote>

What action Hitler took is unclear, but in 1933 Jeckeln rose to the rank
of Gruppenführer, and by 1936 he was SS-Obergruppenführer, putting him in
the top ranks of the SS generals.

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):

This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>

The best treatment in English of the Riga killings is Andrew Ezergailis,
“The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944”, The Historical Institute of Latvia,
Riga, 1996, pgs. 239 – 270 [downloadable at
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]. Ezerhgailis’s account is
based upon military, police, and municipal records, as well as on an
analysis of the various evidence presented at trials dealing with the
Rumbula shootings held after the war in Latvia (1946) and Hamburg, West
Germany (1973, 1975).

The Riga massacre was Jeckeln’s finest hour, his greatest achievement.

Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/einsatzdec.html

<quote>
<deletions>
A report dated 16 January 1942, accounting for the activities of
Einsatzkommando 2. stated that in Riga on 30 November 1941:

“10,600 Jews were shot.” (NO3405)

[Original: “Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr.151” 5.1.1942:

Der Hoehere SS- und Polizeifuehrer in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer
Jeckeln, hat inzwischen eine Erschiessungsaktion in Angriff genommen
und am Sonntag, dem 30.11.41, ca. 4000 des Rigaer Ghettos und eines
Evakuierungstransportes aus dem Reich beseitigt. ]

It also revealed that mass shooting was not a feasible means of resolving
the ‘Jewish problem’. Jeckeln’s very success proved the logistical
problems of and practical limitations on mass shootings. It was a high
point in the first phase of the exterminational phase of the Holocaust,
but it also aroused issues which resulted in the Germans deciding to
develp new and more discrete methodologies. The Riga massacre was the
greatest, but also the last, of the large-scale (= 10-E4 victims),
semi-public massacres in the parts of Nazi-occupied Europe under Jeckeln’s
supervision.

His defense of his actions can be read at
https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245

Jeckeln was hanged in Riga on February 3, 1946

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:03 EST 2005
Article: 1040909 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:51:39 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
>
> Well gee, Eugene; show us one or two of those official documents
> generated by Jackeln’s bureaucracy that refer to a massacre at Rumbula,
> or any other place around Riga. That ought to be pretty easy.
<deletions>

Source: http://www.dialogi.lv/article.php?id=796&t=11&rub=0

From: Scherwitz: der judische SS-Offizier
Anita KUGLER
07.03.2005 06:00

Vortrag-Zusammenfassung
<quote>
<deletions>
Bürgermeister Wittrock ist entsprechend empört. Nicht über die
Massenerschießung, sondern weil die «Umsiedlung» so «plötzlich» erfolgt
und ihm damit die Möglichkeit genommen ist, die Juden nach Vorschrift
auszurauben. Alles war doch schon eingeleitet. Seine Behörde besitzt
Tausende von Formularen, auf denen die Bewohner des Ghettos ihr Vermögen,
einschließlich Eheringen, aufgelistet haben. Die Beschlagnahmungsaktion
der Zivilverwaltung hätte am Montag, den 1. Dezember, beginnen sollen. Für
das Bargeld ist schon ein Sonderkonto bei der Reichskreditkasse
eingerichtet und für den Schmuck Tresore sind angemietet. Dann kommt
«plötzlich die Umsiedlungsaktion». Bei ihrem «Auszug aus dem Ghetto»,
beklagt sich Wittrock bei dem für den Massenmord verantwortlichen SS- und
Polizeiführer Jeckeln, «haben die Juden einen großen Teil ihres Eigentums
mitgenommen und somit meiner tatsächlichen Verfügungsgewalt entzogen».
Über die auf seinem Hoheitsgebiet erschossenen Juden verliert er kein
Wort. Auch gegenüber seinem Vorgesetzten, dem Reichskommissar Lohse,
erlaubt sich Wittrock kein Wörtchen menschlichen Gefühls. Und in seinen
«Erinnerungen» hat er seine Klagen über das seiner Behörde entzogene
jüdische Vermögen vergessen.

(….)

In den Akten des Bundesarchivs finden sich eine ganze Reihe Briefe, in
denen sich das Generalkommissariat darüber beschwert, daß die Uhren, die
die SS bei der dafür zuständigen «Treuhandverwaltung» abgeliefert hat,
«unecht» seien und die Schmuckstücke «billige Plagiate». Nur das jüdische
«Umzugsgut» und das Mobiliar der «verlassenen Judenwohnungen» in der Stadt
landet allmählich in den Depots des Generalkommissariats und wird von der
Treuhandverwaltung entweder an deutsche Zivilbeamte vermietet oder
bedürftigen Letten überlassen.

Interessenten haben sich zu bewerben, und sie tun es ungeniert in Briefen
wie diesen: «Bitte um die Bewilligung, (…) von den Sachen der Juden aus
dem Ghetto folgende Gegenstände zu kaufen. 1 Schreibtisch mit Stuhl, 1
Bücherschrank. 2 Liegestühle (….) Bemerke, daß ich beim Judensäubern
teilgenommen habe.» Oder: «Bitte um die Bewilligung (….) von den Sachen
im Ghetto folgende Gegenstände zu kaufen. 6 Eßstühle, 1 Kinderstuhl (….)
Bemerke, daß ich beim Judentransport und Reinigung teilgenommen habe.»
Oder: «Ich wende mich mit der ergebensten Bitte mir folgende Gegenstände
aus dem Ghetto zuteilen zu wollen: 12 Suppenteller, 12 Frühstücksteller, 6
Fischmesser, (….) Ich habe mich auch bei der Judenaktion beteiligt.»

Die Liste ließe sich endlos fortsetzen. Ein Oberkriegsrat will aus dem
«Judenvermögen» Einrichtungsgegenstände für eine Acht-Zimmerwohnung, ein
deutschbaltischer Rücksiedler bittet für seine «begabte» zehnjährige
Tochter um «Nutznießung eines Klavier aus den Judenwohnungen», eine ledige
Mutter um «einen Kinderwagen aus dem Ghettovermögen», Kasinos wollen
«Geschirr», Wehrmachtsstellen «Lampen», das Kriegswerk der Daimler-Benz AG
in Riga «Gefäße zum Essenfassen» aus dem Ghetto, die Oberpostdirektion
«Bratpfannen und Fußabtreter», Pensionen wollen «Betten», Lazarette
«Bademäntel», die Gold- und Silberscheideanstalt «Eheringe für Zahngold»,
Antiquitätenhändler «Silberbecher» aus dem «Umzugsgut», ein Bildhauer
«Andenkensachen». Alle wollen sie etwas, und alle wissen genau, wem es
zuvor gehört hat. «Jüdisches gibt es nur noch in den geschlossenen
Kramläden und in den Kulturzerstörungen des Bolschewismus», steht in einem
Reiseführer für deutsche Soldaten», der Ende 1941 von der Feldkommandantur
herausgegeben wird.

Wittrocks Behörde bleibt auf ihren 13.652 «Anmeldungen für das jüdische
Vermögen» sitzen, die sie für die unterbliebene Beschlagnahmungsaktion im
Ghetto vorbereitet hat. «Diese Anmeldungen haben aber zur Zeit nur noch
rein historischen Wert, da die Juden, die Anmeldungen abgegeben haben,
sich seit Dezember v. J. nicht mehr in Riga befinden», heißt es in einer
Art Abschlußbericht an den Generalkommissar vom August 1942. So elegant
ist der Massenmord nirgendwo sonst umschrieben worden.

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:03 EST 2005
Article: 1040910 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:24:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> [=2E..]
> >
> > Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand
> “executions” [=3D
> > Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
> >
>
> No.
> The meaning of the word ‘exekutieren” in German means according to
> todays ‘Duden’: “vollstrecken, ausf=FChren” and depends on the
> context. The word is not often used. This word was at that time
> considered a “Fremdwort” and it was at that time fashionable to
> replace “Fremdw=F6rter” with Germanized words.
> But you are the linguist here. Maybe you can straighten me out on this.
>
> I don’t have a copy of Heydrichs order in the original German. I just
> quoted the English version from another paper.

In the language of the Ereignismeldungen as well as of legal documents
generated in the post-war trials that dealt with them, exekutieren with a
[+human] direct object, as in “Die Kinder des Juden Pliners sind zu
exekutieren.” or its verbal noun Exekution with [+human] genitive
attribute functioning as a direct object equivalent, as in “Teilnahme an
mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der Genickschussanlage.” is
used as a synonym for Erschiessung, Massenerschiessung,
Gruppenerschiessung, Einzelerschiessung, and Tötung.

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd500.htm

<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 500
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Kremer, Johann Paul 10 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Münster 601129
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Auschwitz
Tatzeit: 4209-4211
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Deutsche, Französische, Niederländische, Polnische,
Slowakische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Auschwitz
Verfahrensgegenstand: Straftaten eines Lagerarztes in Auschwitz. Teilnahme
an insgesamt 15 ‘Sonderaktionen’, in deren Verlauf in Auschwitz
eintreffende jüdische Häftlinge in den Gaskammern mit Zyklon B getötet
wurden. Teilnahme an mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der
Genickschussanlage. Tötung 6 weiblicher Häftlinge, die an einer Revolte im
Frauenstraflager Budy beteiligt gewesen sein sollen, durch Herzinjektion
von Phenol. Selektion kranker Häftlinge bei den ‘Arztvorstellungen’ im
Ambulanzraum; die ausgesonderten Häftlinge wurden mittels
Phenolinjektionen getötet. Selektion kranker Häftlinge im ‘Krankenrevier’
zur Vergasung

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XVII
</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd625.htm

<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 625
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Verbrechen der Endphase,
Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Hofmann, Franz Josef Freispruch
Kru., Stefan Freispruch
Schn., Helmut Freispruch
Wur., Eugen Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hechingen 660318
BGH 670718
Tatland: Deutschland, Estland, Frankreich
Tatort: HS KL Bisingen, HS KL Dautmergen, HS KL Neckargerach, HS KL
Markirch, HS KL Schörzingen, HS KL Schömberg, HS KL Spaichingen, HS KL
Vaivara, HS KL Vivikoni II, HS KL Ereda, HS KL Narwa, HS KL Lagedi, auf
dem Weg von dem KL Narwa in das KL Ereda, auf dem Weg von dem KL
Spaichingen nach Oberschwaben
Tatzeit: 43-45
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Zigeuner, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Estnische, Sowjetische, Polnische, Deutsche, Tschechische,
Litauische, Italienische, Französische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Bisingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Dautmergen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Markirch, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Neckarelz, Haftstättenpersonal KL Neckargerach, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Schörzingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Schömberg, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Spaichingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Vaivara, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Vivikoni II
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von Häftlingen durch Tottreten, Erschlagen,
Erwürgen, Erschiessen, Erhängen und Ertränken sowie im Rahmen von
Selektionen. Exekution geflüchteter und wieder aufgegriffener Häftlinge.
Exekutionen im Auftrag des RSHA. Tötungen bei Evakuierungsmärschen

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd639.htm

<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 639
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Ste., Hans-Helmut Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kassel 661123
Tatland: Litauen
Tatort: Polangen
Tatzeit: 410630
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Litauische
Dienststelle: Luftwaffe 6.Fluganwärterkompanie
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung von 111 Juden durch ein auf Anforderung
des EK Tilsit zur Verfügung gestelltes Exekutionskommando

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIV
</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd630.htm

<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 630
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Ra., Karl 5 Jahre
Schae., Theodor August Wilhelm Oswald Freispruch
Tan., Heinz 6 Jahre
Wiebens, Wilhelm Bernhard Paul lebenslänglich
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Berlin 660506
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Witebsk, Lepel, Wjasma, Ghatzk, unbekannt (Raum Witebsk)
Tatzeit: 4111-4208
Opfer: Juden, Zigeuner, Häftlinge, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK9
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessung von Juden bei der
Ghettoliquidierung in Lepel und in einem unbekannten Ort im Raum Witebsk.
Tötung in mehreren Erschiessungsaktionen von jüdischen Kriegsgefangenen,
Häftlingen und Zigeunern sowie von ca. 80 sowjetischen Männern, die bei
einem Fliegerangriff auf Witebsk den sowjetischen Flugzeugen
Positionslichter gegeben haben sollten. Exekution von ca. 70 sowjetischen
Männern, weil Widerstandskämpfer die Sprengung einer Brücke über die Düna
vorbereitet hatten

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:04 EST 2005
Article: 1040911 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:37:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 158
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

In the language of the *Ereignismeldungen* as well as of the legal documents
generated in the post-war trials that dealt with them, *exekutieren* with a
[+human] direct object, as in “Die Kinder des Juden Pliners sind zu
exekutieren.” or its verbal noun *Exekution* with [+human] genitive
attribute functioning as a direct object equivalent, as in “Teilnahme an
mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der Genickschussanlage.” is
used as a synonym for *Erschiessung*, *Massenerschiessung*,
*Gruppenerschiessung*, *Einzelerschiessung*, and *Tötung*.

EXAMPLES:

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd500.htm

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XVII
</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd625.htm

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd639.htm

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIV
</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd630.htm

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII

</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:04 EST 2005
Article: 1040918 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:10:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

> Unless other credible independent evidence exists to support the facts
> alleged, confessions obtained by Jewish/Russian sadists cannot be
> accepted by any rational person as proof of anything. And you have no
> other credible evidence. You have a confession obtained by a sadistic
> Jew supported by unbelievable testimony of other Jews seeking to kill
> the Germans after the war and make a little money on the side. That’s
> hardly convincing evidence.

You do not want to accept a word contained in Jeckeln’s interrogation in a
Soviet court as having any value whatsoever, even though what he says is
corroborated by notes in Himmler’s diaries and other sources. That is your
privilege.

But what about the cases dealing with the Rumbula massacre tried in West
German courts during the 1970s. I do not have access to all of the
evidence presented, but I do have access to the case summaries and
sentences. Surely they indicate that crimes were committed in Riga in
conjunction with the liquidation of the Riga ghetto.
Polizeihauptwachtmeister Otto Tuchel, who received a life sentence in the
case no. 789 below, participated in the establishment of the Riga ghetto,
was the overseer of the Latvian ghetto guard, and, on November 30 and
December 8, participated in the organization of the columns to the killing
site in addition to taking part in the killing of the Jews who were
bedridden in the ghetto hospital. [Note: all of the sources below have the
same URL because the window is set up as a split screen with the places,
dates, and numbers of the trial in the left window, and the number of the
trial as a hyperlink. You access information about the case in question by
pressing the right-most number, e.g. 789 for the case below:

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 789
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Die., Emil von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Jah., Friedrich Urteil vom BGH aufgehoben, dann verhandlungsunfähig
Neu., Max von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Tuchel, Otto lebenslänglich
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 730223
BGH 740709
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: Riga
Tatzeit: 4112
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Lettische
Dienststelle: Polizei Pol.Btl.21
Verfahrensgegenstand: Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
erfahren Lfd.Nr. 843
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
May., Gerhard Kurt 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 770802
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: HS KL Gut Jungfernhof (Jumpravas Muiza), HS AEL Salaspils, Riga
Tatzeit: 420102, 420130, 420205, 4203
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Deutsche, Lettische, Oesterreichische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EG A, Polizei Sipo Riga
Verfahrensgegenstand: Selektion von Wiener und Berliner Juden im Rigaer
Ghetto, die anschliessend in der Nähe Rigas erschossen wurden.
Massenerschiessung von mindestens 2000 arbeitsunfähigen Juden in Riga und
von mindestens 4000 arbeitsunfähigen Juden auf dem Gut Jungfernhof.
Einzelerschiessung von Juden im AEL Salaspils wegen mangelnder
Arbeitsleistung oder nach einem Fluchtversuch

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 883
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Tol., Karl 3? Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 830509
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: Riga
Tatzeit: 42
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Lettische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK2
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessung von Juden im Bickernicker Wald,
im Ghetto Riga sowie in der Nähe von Riga

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

The trials in Hamburg were not conducted in the tense atmosphere of the
trial in Riga, nor can you fault the West German judiciary for being
sadistic. Life sentences, such as the one that Otto Tuchel received, are
not given lightly in Germany. Convincing evidence had to be presented that
he participated in “Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli” in December, 1941.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:05 EST 2005
Article: 1040922 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:20:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 124
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

Polizeihauptwachtmeister Otto Tuchel, who received a life sentence in the
case no. 789 below, participated in the establishment of the Riga ghetto,
was the overseer of the Latvian ghetto guard, and, on November 30 and
December 8, participated in the organization of the columns to the killing
site in addition to taking part in the killing of the Jews who were
bedridden in the ghetto hospital. [Note: all of the sources below have the
same URL because the window is set up as a split screen with the places,
dates, and numbers of the trial in the left window, and the number of the
trial as a hyperlink. You access information about the case in question by
pressing the right-most number, e.g. 789 for the case below]:

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

</quote>

The trials in Hamburg were not conducted in the tense and hate-filled
atmosphere of Jeckeln’s trial in Riga, nor can you fault the West German
judiciary for being sadistic. If there was no evidence whatsoever that a
massacre had taken place at Rumbula, as you claim, how could the massacre
have been the object of at least three separate trials and generated the
prison sentences that it did? Life sentences, such as the one that Otto
Tuchel received, are not given lightly by German courts. Convincing
evidence had to be presented that he and the others who received
sentences, such as Karl Tol[mans] and Gerhard May[wald] participated in
crimes such as “Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli” and
“Massenerschiessung von Juden … im Ghetto Riga sowie in der Nähe von
Riga”.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:05 EST 2005
Article: 1040973 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:32:00 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, “Emil Müller”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> “Eugene Holman” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]…
> >
> […]
> Like in all post war Holocaust trial by the Germans, the courts seem to be
> surprisingly desinterested in the crime itself. Why did they not order
> professional excavations of the alleged mass graves?

What would professional excavations of mass graves prove, particularly
bearing in mind that the Nazis had gone to considerable lengths to exhume
and burn the bodies in many mass graves? Two professional excavations at
mass graves in the Ukraine, at Ustonovka and Serniki (see
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html), revealed that the mass murders
had taken place using the Jeckeln-devised *Sardinenpackung* method,
precisely as eyewitnesses had claimed. Exhuming other ones would reveal
the same thing. Military and municipal records as well as the testimony of
perpetrators and bystanders all indicate that the bodies of the more than
1,000 people shot in the Riga ghetto and along Maskavas iela (Moscow Road)
on November 30 and December 8 for straggling or attempting to escape were
gathered up, loaded onto open carts, and dumped into a mass grave blasted
open by the SS at the Old Jewish Cemetery in Central Riga which was later
marked by a huge headstone. The first day of the mass execution has been
locally called *Rigaer Blutsonntag* (see e.g.
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/rezensionen/nl26/schmidt.htm) ever
since. What purpose would be served by disturbing their grave and exhuming
their remains?

> Their interest seemed to be mainly to get a confession from an alleged
> perpetrator and bingo!
>
> These trial were political trials.

All trials are political trials. People are put on trial because they have
allegedly violated the laws by which organized civil society functions.
The purpose of the trial is to determine whether the allegations are true
or not. The people who were put on trial for the Riga massacre in Germany
during the 1970s did not base their defense on claims that the massacre
never took place. They knew that they couldn’t because there was massive
evidence, much of it military records and reports of assignments and
actions completed, of both the massacre and their participation in its
organization and implemenation. Their defense was based on the claim that
they were just following orders and would have been punished for
disobedience, not that the military records and reports were innacurate or
forgeries.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:05 EST 2005
Article: 1040986 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:06:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>, “Emil Müller”
<[email protected]> wrote:

What would professional excavations of mass graves prove, particularly
bearing in mind that the Nazis had gone to considerable lengths to exhume
and burn the bodies in many mass graves? Two professional excavations at
mass graves in the Ukraine, at Ustonovka and Serniki (see
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html), revealed that the mass murders
had taken place using the Jeckeln-devised *Sardinenpackung* method,
precisely as eyewitnesses had claimed. Exhuming other ones would reveal
the same thing. Military and municipal records as well as the testimony of
perpetrators and bystanders all indicate that the bodies of the more than
1,000 people shot in the Riga ghetto and along Maskavas iela (Moscow Road)
on November 30 and December 8 for straggling or attempting to escape were
gathered up, loaded onto open carts, and dumped into a mass grave that had
been blasted open by the SS at the Old Jewish Cemetery in the Jewish
ghetto in Central Riga. The grave was later marked by a huge headstone.
The first day of the mass execution has been locally called *Rigaer
Blutsonntag* (see e.g.
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/rezensionen/nl26/schmidt.htm) ever
since. What purpose would be served by disturbing their grave and exhuming
their remains?

> Their interest seemed to be mainly to get a confession from an alleged
> perpetrator and bingo!

They didn’t need to *get* confessions, some of the perpetrators had been
ready to volunteer information years before:

Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDIC.html

<quote>
TOP SECRET

C. S. D. I. C. (U.K.)

G.G. REPORT
IF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT IS REQUIRED FOR FURTHER
DISTRIBUTION. IT SHOULD BE PARAPHRASED SO THAT NO MENTION IS MADE OF THE
PRISONERS’ NAMES, NOR OF THE METHODS BY WHICH THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN
OBTAINED

S.R.G.G. 1158(C)

The following conversation took place between:

CS/1952 — Generalmajor BRUNS (Heeres-Waffenmeisterschule I, BERLIN) Captd
GÖTTINGEN 8 Apr 45

and other Senior Officer PW whose voices could not be identified.

Information received: 25 Apr 45

GERMAN TEXT

BRUNS: Als ich davon hörte, dass am Freitag die Juden erschossen werden
sollten, ging ich zu dem 2l-jährigen Burschen und sagte, dass sie sich in
meinem Dienstbereich sehr nutzbar gemacht hatten, ausserdem: der
Heereskraftfahrpark hatte 1500, dann hatte die Heeresgruppe etwa 800
Frauen eingesetzt, um Wäsche zu nahen von den Beständen, die wir in RIGA
gefunden hatten, dann nähten in der Nähe von RIGA etwa 1200 Frauen aus
mehreren Millionen gefundener Schafsfelle das, was uns dringend fehlte:
Ohrenschützer, Pelzkappen, Pelzwesten usw. Es war doch nichts vorgesehen,
weil ja doch der Krieg in RUSSLAND schon siegreich beendet war bekanntlich
im Oktober 1941. Kurz und gut, alles Frauen, die nutzbar eingesetzt waren.
Habe ich versucht, die zu retten. Habe zu diesem Burschen da,
ALTENMEYER(?), den Namen vergesse ich nicht, der kommt auch auf die
Verbrecherliste, sage ich: “Hören Sie mal, das sind doch wertvolle
Arbeitskräfte für uns!” “Wollen Herr Oberst die Juden als wertvolle
Menschen bezeichnen?” Ich sage: “Hören Sie mal, Sie müssen zuhören, was
ich sage, ich habe gesagt wertvolle Arbeitskräfte. Über ihren Menschenwert
habe ich ja gar nicht gesprochen.” Sagt er: “Ja, die müssen erschossen
werden, ist Führerbefehl !” Ich sage: “FÜHRER-Befehl?” “Jawohl”, und da
zeigt er mir das. SKIOTAWA(?) war es, 8 km von RIGA, zwischen SCHAULEN und
MITAU sind ja auch die 5000 Berliner Juden – plötzlich aus dem Zug raus –
erschossen worden. Das habe ich zwar nicht gesehen, aber das bei
SKIOTAWA(?); also kurz und gut, es gab dann mit dem Kerl da noch eine
Auseinandersetzung, ich habe dann telephoniert mit dem General im
Hauptquartier, mit JAKOBS und mit ABERGER (?) und mit einem Dr. SCHULTZ ,
der da war beim General der Pioniere, wegen dieser Arbeitskräfte; ich
sagte ihm noch: “Ich will mich Ihrer Auffassung anschliessen, dass das
Volk an den Völkern der Erde gesündigt hat, dann lasst sie doch nutzbare
Fron[t]arbeit leisten, stellt sie an die Strassen, lasst die Strassen
streuen, dass uns die Lastkraftwagen nicht in die Gräben schlittern.” “Ja,
die Verpflegung!” Ich sage: “Das bisschen Fressen, was die kriegen, ich
will mal 2 Millionen Juden annehmen – 125 Gramm Brot kriegten sie per Tag
– wenn wir das nicht mehr aufbringen, dann wollen wir lieber heute als
morgen Schluss machen.” Dann habe ich telephoniert usw., und denke doch
nicht,

DISTRIBUTION

BY C.S.D.I.C. (U.K.)

M.I.19.a War Office (56 copies)
N.I.D. Admiralty ( 9 copies)
A.D.I.(K) Air Ministry (15 copies)

(29111) Wtr51755/3515 37,000 2/45
A. & E.W.Ltd GP.692 J.7303
TOP SECRET

– 2 –

BRUNS: dass das so schnell geht. Jedenfalls, Sonntag morgens höre ich,
dass sie es schon machen. Das Ghetto ist ausgeräumt worden, da ist ihnen
gesagt worden: “Ihr werdet umgelagert, nehmt die wichtigsten Sachen noch
mit.” Im übrigen war das eine Erlösung für die, denn wie sie im Ghetto
behandelt wurden, das war ein Martyrium. Ich wollte es nicht glauben, da
bin ich rausgefahren und habe mir den Laden angeguckt.

? : Das Ausland hat das doch alles gewusst, nur wir Deutsche haben es
nicht gewusst.

BRUNS: Ich will Ihnen etwas sagen: es mag das eine oder andere gestimmt
haben, es ist aber auffallend, dass das Exekutionskommando, was an dem
Morgen da erschoss, also an jeder Grube sechs
Maschinenpistolenschützen–die Gruben waren 24 m lang und ungefähr 3 m
breit, mussten sich hinlegen wie die Sardinen in einer Büchse, Kopfe nach
der Mitte. Oben sechs Maschinenpistolenschützen, die dann den Genickschuss
beibrachten.

Wie ich kam, war sie schon so voll, da mussten die Lebenden also dann sich
drauflegen und dann kriegten sie den Schuss; damit nicht so viel Platz
verloren ging, mussten sie sich schön schichten.

Vorher wurden sie aber ausgeplündert an der einen Station–hier war der
Waldrand, hier drin waren die drei Gruben an dem Sonntag und hier war noch
eine 1 1/2 km lange Schlange und die rückten schrittchenweise–es war ein
Anstehen auf den Tod.

Wenn sie hier nun näher kamen, dann sahen sie, was drin vor sich ging.
Ungefähr hier unten mussten sie ihre Schmucksachen und ihre Koffer
abgeben. Das gute kam in den Koffer und das andere auf einen Haufen. Das
war zur Bekleidung von unserem notleidenden Volk–und dann, ein Stückchen
weiter, mussten sie sich ausziehen und 500 m vor dem Wald vollkommen
ausziehen, durften nur Hemd oder Schlüpfer anbehalten. Das waren alles nur
Frauen und kleine Kinder, so 2-jährige.

Dann diese zynische Bemerkungen! Wenn ich noch gesehen hätte, dass diese
Maschinenpistolenschützen, die wegen Überanstrengung alle Stunden abgelöst
wurden, es widerwillig gemacht hätten!

Nein, dreckige Bemerkungen: “Da kommt ja so eine jüdische Schönheit.” Das
sehe ich noch vor meinem geistigen Auge. Ein hübsches Frauenzimmer in so
einem feuerroten Hemd.

Und von wegen Rassereinheit: in RIGA haben sie sie zuerst rumgevögelt und
dann totgeschossen, dass sie nicht mehr reden konnten.

Dann habe ich zwei Offiziere rausgeschickt, von denen einer jetzt noch
lebt, weil ich Zeugen haben wollte. Ich habe ihnen nicht gesagt, was los
ist. “Gehen Sie zum Wald von SKIOTAWA(?) raus, gucken Sie sich an, was da
los ist, und machen Sie einen Bericht darüber.”

Dann habe ich zu dem Bericht noch ein Amtsschreiben dazugemacht, und habe
ihm persönlich zu JAKOBS hingebracht.

Der sagte: “Hier liegen schon zwei Beschwerden von Pionierbataillonen aus
der UKRAINE vor.”

Da hatten sie sie am Rande von den grossen Erdspalten totgeschossen und
reinfallen lassen und dann hat es beinahe Pest gegeben, also jedenfaIls
pestilenzartige Düfte. Sie hatten sich eingebildet, sie könnten mit der
Kreishacke die Ränder dann abpickeln und dann würden die begraben sein.
Dieser Löss war so hart, dass zwei Pionierbataillone nachher die Ränder
absprengen mussten, da hatten sich die Bataillone darüber beschwert. Das
lag auch bei JAKOBS.

Er sagte: “Wir wussten nicht recht, wie wir es dem FÜHRER zu Gehör bringen
sollten. Machen wir auf dem Wege über CANARIS.”

Der hatte diese scheussliche Aufgabe, immer so die günstige Minute
abzupassen und dem FÜHRER so leise Andeutungen zu machen.

Vierzehn Tage später war ich mit einer anderen Angelegenheit bei dem
Oberbürgermeister oder wie damals die besondere Funktionsbezeichnung war,
da zeigte mir der ALTENMEYER triumphierend: “Hier ist eine Verfügung
gekommen, dass derartige Massenerschiessungen in Zukunft nicht mehr
stattfinden dürften. Das soll vorsichtiger gemacht werden.”

Ich weiss aber jetzt aus meinen letzten Warnungen, dass ich seit der Zeit
noch verschärft bespitzelt wurde.

? : Allerhand, dass Sie überhaupt noch leben.

BRUNS: Ich habe in Göttingen jeden Tag auf meine Verhaftung gewartet.
</quote>

>
> These trial were political trials.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:06 EST 2005
Article: 1040987 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Irving’s skewed account of the Riga “Blutsonntag” massacre
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:39:04 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 489
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Here is a detailed example of how David Irving deftly manipulates
historical evidence to suit his agenda.

Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/evans004.asp

<quote>
<deletions>
(E) Suppression of relevant evidence: Friedrich Jeckeln’s testimony

1. As we have seen, Irving’s account of Goebbels¹s article in Das Reich
explicitly states that the article was taken by the SS as ‘a sign from
above’ and directly inspired the killing of thousands of Jews in Riga on
30 November 1941 on the orders of local SS commander Friedrich Jeckeln¹.
There is no evidence at all of any radicalising influence exerted by
Goebbels¹s article on Jeckeln or the SS. As we have already seen, Jeckeln
himself had already been involved in a number of large-scale massacres of
Jews in the occupied Soviet territory in later summer and autumn of 1941:
the over 80,000 Jews exterminated in Kamenets-Podolsk, Kiev,
Dniepropetrovsk and Rovno were all killed before the publication of the
Goebbels article in Das Reich. Clearly, Jeckeln did not need any ‘sign
>from above’ by Goebbels to organise the mass extermination of the Jews.

2. Similarly, the SS officials in Berlin needed no cue from Goebbels to
escalate the mass extermination of the Jews. Adolf Eichmann certainly did
not make such claim during his trial in Jerusalem – indeed, he did not
even mention Goebbels¹s article in Das Reich . And quite apart from the
fact that Heinrich Himmler would not have regarded any statement by
Goebbels as a ‘sign from above’, it has already been shown that the SS
leadership was pursuing a policy of mass extermination of the Jews in the
occupied Soviet territories long before Goebbels¹s article was published
on 16 November 1941. This policy of mass murder was also put into effect
in the Baltic states. From July to November 1941, around 80% of the entire
Jewish population of Lithuania were killed. The commander of
Einsatzkommando 3 (EK 3, one of the four sub-units constituting
Einsatzgruppe A) reported on 1 December 1941 that ‘the aim of solving the
Jew-problem for Lithuania has been achieved by EK 3. There are no more
Jews in Lithuania, apart from the work-Jews and their families’. The same
murderous policy was being pursued in neighbouring Latvia. Einsatzgruppe A
reported that by October 1941, 30,000 of the 70,000 Jews in Latvia had
already been killed. Clearly, the extermination in late November and early
December 1941 of the Jews in Riga, the capital of Latvia, was simply
following the murderous logic of Nazi extermination policy and had nothing
to do with the Goebbels article in Das Reich .

3. This conclusion is supported by further documentary evidence. In his
post-war interrogation, Jeckeln stated that he received orders from
Himmler on 10 or 11 November 1941 to liquidate the Riga ghetto. Himmler’s
appointment book suggests that the meeting between Jeckeln and Himmler in
fact took place on the evening of 4 November 1941 in Himmler’s
headquarters in Eastern Prussia. In his testimony, Jeckeln stated that
Himmler informed him that Hinrich Lohse (the Reichskommissar Ostland
stationed in Riga, responsible to the Minister for the Occupied Eastern
Territories, Alfred Rosenberg), was apparently opposed to the liquidation
of the ghetto. Jeckeln continued: Himmler said I should talk this through
with Lohse, and even if he was against it, the Riga ghetto must still be
liquidated. “Tell Lohse it is my order, which also corresponds to a wish
of the Führer!”‘.

4. On 5 November 1941, Jeckeln’s men, about 50 in total, arrived in Riga.
Jeckeln himself arrived some time after. That Himmler approved of the
liquidation of the Riga ghetto is also shown by another source. It is
clear that on 4 December 1941, very shortly after the first day of mass
killings of the Baltic Jews in Riga on 30 November 1941, Jeckeln met with
Himmler to discuss these events. A mere four days after this meeting, on 8
December 1941, Jeckeln supervised the killing of most of the remaining
Jews in Riga. Concluding, Himmler had most probably ordered these
massacres before the publication of Goebbels article in Das Reich. No
connection at all can be established between this article and the killing
of the Riga Jews.

(F) Suppression of relevant evidence: Testimony of Walter Bruns

1. Irving omits further documentary evidence in order to support his
claim that the massacre of Jews in Riga on 30 November 1941 was inspired
by Goebbels¹s article in Das Reich. The German army officer Walter Bruns
was apparently in Riga during the massacre. Bruns is regarded as a highly
reliable witness by Irving. Irving has referred to Bruns¹s statements in
many of his books, including both editions of Hitler¹s War , the
biographies of Goebbels and Göring, and the book on the Nuremberg War
Crimes Trials, and concludes that there can be no doubt as to the
veracity of his (i.e. Bruns¹s) description¹. In a conversation on 8 April
1945, apparently secretly taped by the Allied forces, Bruns recalls a
conversation in Riga with a young man called Altenmeyer, who apparently
belonged to the SS. Bruns claimed that he argued that the local Baltic
Jews ought not to be killed, as they were valuable workers. But Altenmeyer
replied:'”Yes, they must be shot, it’s a FÜHRER-command!”. I say:
“FÜHRER-command?”. “Yes, indeed”, and then he shows it to me.¹ Since
Irving submits this document in evidence, he must know its contents. But
he totally fails to make reference to this part of Bruns testimony in his
published account of these events. This is a clear example of the
deliberate suppression of relevant evidence because it does not fit in
with Irving¹s case.

(H) Manipulation of statistics: the number of Jews killed in Riga

1. As has already been demonstrated in other briefings, Irving often
manipulates numbers and statistics. He does so again in the case of the
Jews killed in Riga. As we have seen, Irving claims that on 30 November
1941, one thousand Jews from Berlin and ‘four thousand of Riga’s unwanted
Jews were…machine-gunned into two or three pits’. Irving’s assertion
here, which he states with absolute certainty, relies on a report of
Einsatzgruppe A. However, subsequent reports by the Nazi killing squads
and post-war legal investigations indicate that the real number of Jews
exterminated was significantly higher. For instance, a report compiled by
the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) detailed that a total of 10,600 Jews
were shot in Riga on 30 November 1941. After a detailed post-war
investigation, the jury court in Hamburg accepted in 1973 that the real
number was even higher: between 13,000 and 15,000 Jews were killed on 30
November 1941 in the massacre near Riga. Faced with this evidence, Irving
offers a further argument in support of his significantly lower figure.
Drawing on the testimony of Bruns, who had described that the victims were
gunned down into three ditches (24 metres long, about 3 metres wide),
Irving claims that each ditch ‘would have held one or two thousand
victims’. It is entirely unclear how Irving arrives at this bizarre
conclusion, for Bruns in his testimony makes no reference at all to the
depth of the ditches.

2. Furthermore, Irving in his main narrative in Goebbels: Mastermind of
the Third Reich¹ , fails to enlighten his readers about a second massacre
of the Riga Jews which took place on 8 December 1941. Only in his
footnotes does he acknowledge that Einsatzgruppe A reported that in early
December 1941 a total of 27,800 Jews were executed in Riga. However,
Irving immediately casts doubt on these figures, claiming that they are
‘possibly an exaggeration’. Yet, Irving’s doubts are not confirmed by
other sources. The court in Hamburg in 1973 established that 12,000-15,000
Jews were killed on 8 December 1941, bringing the total number of Jews
murdered by the Nazis in Riga between 30 November 1941 and 8 December 1941
to 25,000-30,000. Using various methods of calculating the victims in
Riga, the historian Andrew Ezergailis has also arrived at figures of
certainly almost 25,000 Jews killed.

(iv) Himmler’s phone call of 30 November 1941

1. Irving’s attempt to show that Hitler was not responsible for the mass
killings of German Jews deported to the East also makes use of Himmler’s
phone log. This appears repeatedly in Irving’s work, as we have already
seen, and for many years formed a key link in his alleged chain of
documents exculpating Hitler from involvement in the extermination of the
Jews. It therefore repays closer examination, as does Irving¹s shifting
position on its status over time in the light of the devastating
criticisms that have been levelled at it by Broszat and Trevor-Roper, as
well as by others, and more recently, in the light of new documentary
discoveries which back these criticisms up.

(A) Irving’s claim in Hitler’s War (1977)

1. In Hitler’s War (1977), Irving argues that Hitler disapproved of the
killings of Jews in the East. He claims that Hitler even explicitly
ordered a stop to the extermination of Jews in November 1941 – as
Trevor-Roper noted, blatantly contradicting his own claim that Hitler was
ignorant about what was happening to Jews in Eastern Europe. In the most
in-depth discussion of this issue, Irving states that on 30 November 1941
Himmler was summoned to the Wolf’s Lair for a secret conference with
Hitler, at which the fate of Berlin’s Jews was clearly raised. At 1:30
P.M. Himmler was obliged to telephone from Hitler’s bunker to Heydrich the
explicit order that Jews were not to be liquidated ; and the next day
Himmler telephoned SS General Oswald Pohl, overall chief of the
concentration camp system, with the order: “Jews are to stay were they
are”.

2. Irving’s evidence for his far-reaching claims relies purely on one
entry in Himmler’s phone log. Apparently, Himmler had a phone conversation
>from Hitler’s bunker with Heydrich in Prague on 30 November 1941 at 1:30
pm, which Himmler summarised as follows:

Verhaftung Dr Jekelius Arrest of Dr Jekelius

Angebl. Sohn Molotow. Supposed son of Molotov.

Judentransport aus Berlin. Jew-transport from Berlin.

Keine Liquidierung. No liquidation.

3. Irving interprets this in the 1977 edition of his book as meaning
that Hitler told Himmler to tell Heydrich over the phone not to kill any
Jews at all, ever. In the introduction to Hitler’s War , Irving states
that this is ‘incontrovertible evidence’ that ‘Hitler ordered on November
30, 1941, that there was to be “no liquidation” of the Jews (without much
difficulty, I found in Himmler’s private files his own handwritten note on
this)’. Later on in the text, Irving several times refers to Hitler’s
‘November 1941 order forbidding the liquidation of the Jews’. The
document is mentioned no fewer than sixteen times in the book, and forms
the object of its only illustration. In June 1977 he also said: We want
to know why other historians have not mentioned ever the one document that
exists of Adolf Hitler saying “no liquidation of even a tiny train-load of
Jews”.¹

(B) Bending and misinterpreting reliable sources: The Himmler phone log
of 30 November 1941

1. There is no doubt about the authenticity of this phone log. But it
provides no evidence for Hitler’s involvement at all. All we know is that
Himmler spoke to Heydrich at 1:30 p.m.; it is pure surmise on Irving’s
part to speak of an ‘order’ by Hitler. There is no evidence at all that
Hitler and Himmler even met before the latter’s call to Heydrich at 1:30
pm, let alone that they discussed the ‘transport of Jews from Berlin’.
Hitler¹s bunker was a large and rambling complex, not a small room in
which everyone, including Himmler and Hitler himself, was present at the
same time. Once more, Irving manipulates the evidence in order to present
Hitler as being opposed to the physical extermination of the Jews.

2. Irving’s manipulation of sources is most obvious regarding his claim
that Hitler explicitly forbade the murder of ‘the Jews’. From the entry in
Himmler’s phone log it is perfectly clear that the subject of the
conversation on 30 November 1941 between Himmler and Heydrich concerned
one transport of Jews from Berlin, namely the one which left Berlin on 27
November 1941. There was no general order by anyone to stop the killing of
Jews. This meaning is falsely attributed to the source by Irving, a key
example of how Irving misrepresents and bends source material to fit his
thesis.

3. Irving nowhere gives a motive for Himmler’s telephone conversation
with Heydrich on 30 November 1941 regarding the fate of the Jews from
Berlin, other than Hitler’s opposition to the extermination of Jews, a
motive which has no basis in historical fact. Himmler¹s motives in this
case are not known for certain. Many historians have put forward
convincing explanations for Himmler¹s opposition to the semi-public
killing of the transport of Jews from Berlin on their arrival in Riga. As
in so many other cases, Irving pays no attention to these alternative
explanations at all, although it is the duty of any serious historian to
take account of interpretations put forward by other historians on the
basis of documentary evidence that is being used.

4. To begin with, it is necessary to point out once more that no final
decision regarding the immediate fate of the German Jews deported to the
East seems to have been taken by the Nazi leadership by November 1941.
Whilst native Jews living in former Soviet territory conquered by the
German army were already being indiscriminately killed in very large
numbers, the fate of Jews deported from the West was not yet clearly
marked out: some were killed on arrival, others were initially allowed to
live. Some historians have deduced from this that Himmler still expected
at this time the German Jews would be deported even further to the east
the following year, after the expected victory over the USSR.

5. Other historians have argued that in late 1941, opposition was being
expressed in various parts of the German military and civilian authorities
to the deportations of German Jews to the Reichskommissariat Ostland .
Leading army officials in the area objected to the use of the railway
system, claiming it should concentrate on bringing up supplies behind the
front. Civilian officials such as the General Commissioner of
Weissrussland , Kube, criticised the import¹ of Western Jews into the
area. There was also disquiet in Germany, above all about the inclusion
(or otherwise) in the deportations of so-called half-Jews¹, Jews with
non-Jewish spouses, children, the infirm, and Jewish army veterans with
decorations for gallantry won during the First World War. Foreign
journalists in Berlin had also begun to ask awkward questions about where
the deported Jews were going. The decision by Himmler on 30 November 1941
also has to be seen in the context of the execution of German Jews in
Kovno in late November 1941. On 25 November 1941, some 2,934 Jews from
Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt-am-Main were killed by Einsatzkommando 3 in
Kovno, as were another 2,000 from Vienna and Breslau on November 29.

6. Recently available documentary evidence suggests that the decision to
include the Jews transported from Berlin in the masscre of the Jews in
Riga was taken locally, by Jeckeln. Although Himmler approved of the mass
killing of the Baltic Jews, and indeed probably ordered it, he had not yet
issued any orders for the extermination of the Jews transported to Riga
>from Berlin. Thus he called Heydrich on 30 November to prevent the murder
of the Berlin Jews on their arrival in Riga, in the light of the killing
of Berlin Jews transported to Kovno a few days earlier. It was semi-public
and would arouse further attention. However, by the time of this telephone
conversation between Himmler and Heydrich, the Jews were already dead. On
the day after the massacre, 1 December 1941, Himmler once more spoke to
Heydrich about the executions in Riga. Then, the same evening, he issued
the following message to Jeckeln in Riga: The Jews who have been
resettled out to the territory of the Ostland are only to be dealt with in
accordance with guidelines issued by me or by the Reich Security Head
Office on my authority. I would punish individual initiatives and
contraventions. Signed H. HIMMLER.¹

7. There can be little doubt, therefore, that Jeckeln was acting on his
own initiative on 30 November, and that Himmler not only tried to stop
him, but, when he had failed, then made sure that Jeckeln would not repeat
his action. Equally, however, there can also be little doubt that Himmler
concerned himself only with preventing the killing of Jews transported to
Riga from the west; he fully sanctioned the mass murder of local Jews in
Riga at this time.

1. As we have seen, Irving claimed in the 1977 edition of Hitler’s War
that on the following day, 1 December 1941, Himmler telephoned SS General
Oswald Pohl with the order that ‘Jews are to stay were they are’.
Himmler’s phone log for 1 December 1941 does indeed confirm that he spoke
to Pohl that day. Himmler summarised their conversation as follows:

‘Besuch bei Schwarz.

Koksagys.

Verwaltungsführer der SS

haben zu bleiben.

Lappenschuhe u. Finnenstiefel’

2. The relevant part of this entry for the matter under discussion
consists of the third and fourth lines, which together make a single
sentence. They translate as follows: Administrative leaders of the SS
are to stay’. Thus, what Himmler talked about with Pohl was not that Jews
were to stay were they were (i.e.safe from liquidation), but that the
administrative leaders of the SS had to stay where they were. The term
‘Jews’ is not mentioned by Himmler in his phone call at all. It is simply
fabricated by Irving, a fabrication which he has continued to repeat in
other books, such as the 1991 edition of Hitler’s War .

(v) Irving’s later repetition, and amendment, of his falsifications

(A) Continued misrepresentation of the Himmler phone log of 30 November 1941

In his submission to the court, Irving defends his broad, and as we have
seen, completely false interpretation of the Himmler phone log of 30
November 1941 by claiming that the phrase ‘ Judentransport aus Berlin ‘
could be translated as ‘transportation’ in the sense of a repetitive
movement. But there is no doubt about the fact that the German word ‘
Judentransport ‘ only refers to one single transport. Otherwise, the
German plural, ‘ Judentransporte ‘, would have been used. Irving already
knew that the subject of the phone call had been limited to Jews
transported only from Berlin because this is what the document actually
says. Thus, his more far-reaching claim that there was an order that Jews
in general were not to be liquidated was a deliberate misrepresentation of
the source. The leading German historian and critic of Irving, Martin
Broszat, like Irving writing in 1977, had no difficulty in establishing
that Himmler and Heydrich were talking about the transport from Berlin of
27 November 1941.

Irving subsequently claimed that only after the publication of the 1977
edition of Hitler’s War did ‘colleagues provided him with the
documentation which usefully narrowed down the reference in the
Himmler-Heydrich phone note of November 30, 1941 to one particular
trainload of Jews being shipped from Berlin to Riga at that time’. What is
this documentation to which Irving refers? The evidence that the phone
call referred to a single transport of Jews is unmistakably present in the
document itself. However, while implicitly denying that he deliberately
manipulated the document by misconstruing it to mean a general ban on
killing Jews, Irving does concede that he has amended his account of it
since 1977.

In Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich¹ , published in 1996, as well
as in the 1991 edition of Hitler’s War , Irving indeed appears to have
stepped back from some of his earlier claims. All he argues in Goebbels is
that the Berlin Jews who arrived in Riga on 30 November 1941 were killed
‘even as Hitler…was instructing Himmler that these Berlin Jews were not
to be liquidated’. In his Reply to the Defence, submitted to the court,
Irving similarly argues that the significance of the phone call on 30
November 1941 is that ‘these Jews were shot despite the existence of a
specific Hitler ruling to the contrary’.

However, as we have already seen, there was no ‘specific Hitler ruling’.
It is also nonsense to argue that the Jews were shot ‘despite’ a ruling to
the contrary, for as Irving himself states in the same paragraph of his
submission to the court, the Berlin Jews were shot dead on 30 November ‘a
few hours before Himmler spoke with Heydrich’.

As the German historians Martin Broszat and Eberhard Jaeckel also pointed
out, moreover, if Hitler had intervened personally to stop the killing of
a single trainload of Berlin Jews on their arrival in Riga, then this
would also strongly suggest that he was making an exception here, and that
he knew that there was a general policy of killing them on arrival. Thus
Irving¹s revised interpretation snared him in a fresh net of
contradictions, in which the document ends up by showing the reverse of
what he intended it to.

(B) New misrepresentations and omissions: The testimony of Walter Bruns
and the letter of Dr. Otto Schulz-Du Bois

1. Irving¹s misrepresentation of the events surrounding the killing of
the Jews in Riga is compounded in a recent article on his website. Here
Irving relies on Walter Bruns (already mentioned above) as the source for
his claim that a report about the killings in Riga eventually reached
Hitler¹s headquarters. Hitler…seemingly intervened at once to order a
halt to ” diese Massenerschiessungen ” (these mass shootings) as soon as a
report, signed by a junior officer, was forwarded to him.¹

2. Irving also makes the same point in his Pleadings, where he claims
that some time after Bruns¹s eyewitness account of the massacre reached
Hitler¹s headquarters, Bruns met an SS officer (in Riga, who) scoffed to
him…”Here¹s an order that¹s come, saying that mass shootings like these
are no longer to take place”.¹

3. What is the evidence for these claims? As so often, Irving¹s argument
depends on a complete misrepresentation of the source on which it purports
to rest. First, he fails to draw attention to the full statement about
these events made by Bruns in captivity on 8 April 1945. According to
Bruns, two weeks after the massacre in Riga, ALTENMEYER (?) triumphantly
shows me: “Here¹s an order that¹s come, saying that mass shootings of this
kind may no longer take place in future. That is to be done more
cautiously now”.¹

4. Bruns made this point even more explicitly during his interrogation in
Nuremberg. One or two weeks after the mass executions in Riga, he
recalled, there someone showed me a piece of paper that sanctioned the
shootings, they just had to be carried out less conspicuously in future.¹
Thus there was no question of bringing the killings per se to an end; it
was simply a matter of carrying them out more discreetly. And indeed this
is precisely what happened. In early 1942, Heydrich could note that the
Jewish question in the Ostland can be seen as practically solved and
cleaned-up.¹ Thus Bruns¹s evidence clearly implicates the Nazi leadership
in the continuation of the killings of Jews in the East; in no way does it
lend credence to Irving¹s claim that Hitler actually put a stop to these
killings.

5. Bruns¹s testimony is backed up by another document, which Irving
simply suppresses. In the conversation of 8 April 1945, apparently
secretly taped by the Allied forces, Bruns states that on 30 November 1941
he sent two officers as witnesses to the spot in Riga where the executions
were taking place. According to Bruns, it was decided to send reports of
the killings to Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, the
intelligence department of the Armed Forces High Command. Canaris would
then tell Hitler about these events. One of the two officers sent by Bruns
to witness the executions in Riga was Dr. Otto Schulz-Du Bois, a reserve
engineer captain.

6. Not long after the massacre in Riga, Schulz-Du Bois sent a secret
letter to his wife, which she later dated to January 1942. On his website,
Irving acknowledges that Schulz-Du Bois did indeed send his wife this
letter referring to the killings in Riga. However, he makes no mention of
the letter¹s contents; and it is easy to see why. In this letter,
Schulz-Du Bois wrote that some time after 30 November 1941, he inquired
about the impact of the eyewitness report which he had drawn up on the
massacres of Jews in Riga. He was told that his report had been forwarded
to the top counter-espionage official with the justification that these
things damage the morale of the troops who see and hear such things. This
man, who has constant access to the Führer, is said to have described the
consequences and the terrible nature of these methods to the F. (ührer)
once more compellingly, whereupon he (i.e. Hitler) is said to have said:
“You want to show weakness, do you, mein Herr! I have to do that, for
after me there will not be another one to do it!”

Schulz-Du-Bois, who died in 1945, also apparently repeated this account
verbally to a friend before the end of the war.

7. Yet Irving makes no attempt to confront this important evidence
pointing to Hitler¹s having sanctioned the mass killing in Riga; he
simply omits it from his account. Thus Irving completely misleads his
readers by claiming that once Hitler received the report of the 30
November massacre in Riga, he intervened to order a halt. Yet another
piece of evidence which Irving argues shows that Hitler intervened to save
the Jews fails on closer inspection to match up to the claims Irving makes
for it.

1. On the Focal Point website, Irving claims that on 17 May 1998 he
received a document detailing Himmler’s appointments for the 30 November
1941 from the Moscow archive. He reproduces this document, with
translation, on his website. As emerges from this document, Himmler met
Hitler at 14.30, i.e. after he made the phone-call to Heydrich concerning
the transport of Jews from Berlin, not before. The summary on the Focal
Point website claims: ‘This suggests that Mr Irving’s original theory that
Himmler discussed the matter with Hitler before phoning Heydrich is
wrong’. Irving, of course, had never presented this as a theory , but as
an absolute certainty . As will be remembered, Irving claimed that the
Himmler phone log of 30 November 1941 was incontrovertible evidence¹ that
Hitler ordered that there was to be “no liquidation” of the Jews¹.

2. Thus, Irving has now retreated from his claim that Hitler on 30
November 1941 ordered the stop of all liquidations of Jews. He has been
forced to admit that the phone call Heydrich-Himmler only referred to one
trainload of Jews from Berlin. He has also had to give up his claim that
Hitler ordered Himmler to make the phone-call. Absolutely nothing remains
of his original claim, which he had set out with such certainty in
Hitler’s War (1977) and repeated in modified form on a number of
subsequent occasions. So conclusive is the new documentary evidence that
even Irving has had to admit that one of his key arguments for Hitler’s
opposition to the extermination of the Jews is completely without
substance.

3. Yet, extraordinarily enough, even though on 17 May 1998 Irving
admitted that the claims he had made about the Himmler phone-log had been
totally bogus, he still continued to support his earlier claims in some of
his subsequent publications. Thus on 31 August 1998, he posted another
document on his website in which he argued that on 30 November 1941,
Hitler had demonstrably…ordered¹ ( nachweislich…befohlen¹ ) that the
Berlin Jews on the transport to Riga were not to be killed. This document
could still be accessed on Irving¹s website on 11 April 1999. Evidently
the story, which he himself had discredited a few months earlier, proved
in the end to be too useful to be discarded altogether. A more egregious
instance of Irving¹s totally unscrupulous use of manufactured, manipulated
and doctored historical evidence to support his own untenable historical
arguments would be hard to find.
<deletions>
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:08 EST 2005
Article: 1040990 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:15:11 +0300
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > Correct. There was absolutely nothing they could have done about it.
>
> Of course, and i wish you luck to find an idiot who ‘s going to buy this
> crap. You contradict yourself all the time, and everytime you tell a
> different version of the same story: sometimes the jews are trapped –
> waiting helpless to be “exterminated”, then in a different story
> Wallenberg hands them 100 000 false passports and they are saved.

There is no contradiction. Situations change.

The Jews in Hungary were trapped. In 1944 there was a war going on and all
of the neighboring countries were occupied by or allied with Germany and
were treating Jews far worse than they had been being treated in Hungary.

Wallenberg, a diplomat of a neutral country who had access to Auschwitz
and other camps and knew what was going on there, planned and started
issuing Swedish travel documents after Eichmann’s team had started
rounding up, arresting, and deporting Hungarian Jews, primarily to
Auschwitz.

> Besides the holocau$t promoters admit that the hungarian and slovakian
> jews kept bribibing SS as well the officials of hungarian and slovak
> government.

So what?

> >>None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
> >>advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
> >>shallow like your propaganda and lies.
> >
> >
> > Oh, come on! The East Germans knew that theirs was the only country
>
> Didn’t we talk about Berlin ? The city that had a “special status” ?
> And why do you want to compare what “The East Germans knew” [according
> to you] with what the jews were *told* on BBC and other radio stations ?

Since Jews in German occupied territory were not allowed to own or listen
to radios, their information about the massacres in Riga and its mention
on international radio broadcast spread primarily by word of mouth. In
similar fashion here had also been rumors spreading in East Germany that a
wall was to be built, so much so that on June 15, 1961, two months before
the wall was built, East German leader Walter Ulbricht stated at a press
conference, “Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!”
[http://www.chronik-der-mauer.de/index.php/textpopup/319002/].

> > In German-held territory, the two great Jewish revolts, the one in the
> > Warsaw ghetto in April, 1943, and the one at the Sobibor death camp, on
> > October 14, 1943, resulted in almost all of those who either participated
> > in the revolt or actually managed to escape eventually being ruthlessly
> > killed by the Nazis.
> >
>
> rubbish, most of the jews from Warsaw ghetto were deported, not killed.

Source: http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/wgupris.htm

<quote>
<deletions>
On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops
and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven
hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained
Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but
on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the
resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot,
and the remainder were deported to killing centers or concentration camps
.
</quote>

> just compare the German action in Warsaw ghetto with current US crimes
> in Afganistan or Iraq.

I do not defend US actions in Afganistan or Iraq. However there is a
difference. The US is waging war against governments and terrorist
organization that it thinks, either with or without justification, are
responsible for attacks on the United States and American interests. The
Nazis, on the other hand, were waging a war and targeting specific groups,
not only Jews, but also Gypsies and communists, for extermination, either
immediately or after having first having a contribution to the war effort
extracted from them as slave laborers.

> what takes Sobibor – it was not a “death camp”,

Your claims are contradicted by the historical record.

Deportations to Sobibor:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/sobibor_deportations.htm

Discussion of the fate of the deportees:
http://holocaust-info.dk/statistics/info.htm

Human remains found after the camp was disbanded:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/bones.htm

More human remains: http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/ashes.htm

Map of the camp showing breakdown of functions:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/map.htm

Source: http://auschwitz.dk/Sorbibor.htm

<quote>
Built in March 1942 the deathcamp Sobibor operated from May 1942 until
October 1943 for only one purpose: to kill as many Jews as quickly as
possible. It was built near the small village of Sobibņr in the eastern
sector of the Lublin district, close to a railroad line.

Sobibor’s gas chambers killed an approximate total of 260,000 Jews. Most
came from Poland and from the occupied areas of the Soviet Union and
Western Europe.

Transports arrived by rail, and prisoners were taken immediately toward
the gas chambers. But the victims did not know what awaited them until the
gas was being pumped into the sealed chambers. The first transport
included 10,000 Jews from Germany and Austria, 6,000 from Theresienstadt,
and thousands from Slovakia.

> and some of those
> Sobibor “revolt” “survivors” were later killed by Poles [the jews call
> the Poles “antisemites”].

Nevertheless, some of them survived to tell their story:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/survivors.htm
http://judaism.about.com/library/2_holocaust/stories/bl_toiviblatta.htm

<quote>
<deletions>
Thomas (Toivi) Blatt is a Holocaust Survivor, Sobibor Camp Escapee, and
Author of Sobibor: The Forgotten Revolt and From the Ashes of Sobibor
(later made into a movie called “Escape from Sobibor”).

Host Lisa_Katz says:

Welcome everyone! Thank you all for coming! Great crowd tonight.

wingnuts says:

thanks for having us

Host Lisa_Katz says:

Thomas Toivi Blatt was 12 years old when the Germans invaded Poland. In
his book, Escape from Sobibor: A Story of Survival, Toivi writes about
the chilling events prior to his deportation to the Sobibor extermination
camp. He tells of his life in Sobibor before he took part in the most
successful uprising and mass breakout in any Nazi camp during World War
II. Blatt continues by describing the five horrifying years spent eluding
both the Nazis and later anti-Semitic Polish nationalists. In chat, Toivi
will help us to understand why more Jews did not fight back harder
against the Nazis. Welcome Toivi!

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:08 EST 2005
Article: 1041000 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!207.217.77.43.MISMATCH!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:41:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi
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In article <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Are you sure,

Yes.

> I know many Hungarians that did flee the eastern front and
> made their living in Germany after war ends.

How many of them were Hungarian Jews?

> I do not of a single Hungarian
> person who would agree with you.

I do.

Here is a library of documents concerning Eichmann’s activities in Budapest.

Source:
https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html

<quote>
[Attorney General continues]

I come now to the last part of my reply – I hope that I shall be able to
conclude shortly – concerning Hungary.

The “master himself,” as Himmler called him, was sent to Hungary. Eichmann
said that this was just an expression, Session 98, Vol. IV, page 1698. The
instruction he was given and the duty assigned to him were to comb Hungary
and transfer its Jews to Auschwitz. He admitted this in T/37, pages 1879,
2212, 3273, 3274. He was also accompanied by all his assistants who had
already completed extermination operations in the rest of Europe. It was
necessary to act speedily because the Soviet front was approaching across
the Carpathians, and the day after the entry of the Germans, on 20 March
1944, his messengers – Krumey and Wisliceny – had a meeting with the
Jewish leaders and informed them that from now on, the Unit headed by
Eichmann would handle all Jewish Affairs. The Unit was called
“Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann.” Krumey testified – and his testimony in
these proceedings is on pages 15-16 – that he received instructions from
the Accused concerning how to run the meeting with the Jewish
representatives. What happened at the meeting we know from the report
about it, T/1155. This is a report by the Jewish participants concerning
the meeting of 20 March 1944. We also know from Freudiger’s testimony,
Session 51, Vol. III, pages 934-935. As early as 31 March 1944 Eichmann
had a personal meeting with the Jewish leaders and reassured them that all
of the Germans’ actions were currently intended simply to deal with the
problems arising under the emergency conditions, and after the War the
Jews would become as free as they had been previously, and the Germans
would go back to being as pleasant as they had always been. We know this
>from T/1156, which is an extract from Munczi Erno’s book, which was
confirmed by an affidavit by Dr. Erno Boda (T/1156). And while he was
conducting these reassuring negotiations, Eichmann sent Novak, his
transport officer, to make arrangements for transporting the Jews to
Auschwitz. He admitted this too. Session 103, Vol. IV, page 1770.
</quote>

Source:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005211&printing=yes

<quote>
RAOUL WALLENBERG AND THE RESCUE OF JEWS IN BUDAPEST

Raoul Wallenberg led one of the most extensive and successful rescue
efforts during the Holocaust. A Swedish diplomat, Wallenberg was assigned
as first secretary to the Swedish legation in Budapest, Hungary, in July
1944. He worked with the United States War Refugee Board (WRB) and the
World Jewish Congress to protect tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews from
deportation to the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp.

Hungary had been an ally of Germany, but German defeats and mounting
Hungarian losses led Hungary to seek an armistice with the western Allies.
German forces occupied Hungary on March 19, 1944, to prevent Hungary from
leaving the war and negotiating such an armistice. Shortly after the
occupation, Hungarian officials began deporting Hungarian Jews to
Auschwitz at the request of the Germans. By July 1944, the Germans had
deported nearly 440,000 Jews from Hungary. Some 200,000 Jews remained in
Budapest, and they too faced deportation.

Wallenberg began distributing Swedish protective passports to the Jews in
Budapest in July 1944. He established hospitals, nurseries, and a soup
kitchen, and set up more than 30 safe houses that together formed the core
of the “international ghetto” in Budapest. The international ghetto was
reserved for those Jews and their families holding protective papers from
a neutral country. In November 1944, during the death march of Hungarian
Jews from Budapest to labor camps in Austria, Wallenberg secured the
release of bearers of protective passports and those with forged papers to
save as many as possible.

Other Swedish diplomats and diplomats from other neutral countries joined
the rescue effort. Carl Lutz, a Swiss diplomat, issued certificates of
emigration so that nearly 50,000 Jews in Budapest were under Swiss
protection as potential emigrants to Palestine. Italian businessman
Giorgio Perlasca posed as a Spanish diplomat; he issued forged Spanish
visas and established safe houses, including one for Jewish children. When
Soviet forces liberated Budapest in February 1945, more than 100,000 Jews
remained, mostly because of the efforts of Wallenberg and his colleagues.

Wallenberg disappeared in January 1945 while on his way to meet Soviet
officials in Debrecen. Although his exact fate is not known, he is
presumed to have died, or been murdered, in a Soviet prison.

</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:09 EST 2005
Article: 1041001 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:47:04 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 115
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Are you sure,

Yes.

> I know many Hungarians that did flee the eastern front and
> made their living in Germany after war ends.

How many of them were Hungarian Jews?

> I do not of a single Hungarian
> person who would agree with you.

I do.

Here is a link to a collection of documents dealing with Adolf Eichmann’s
activities in Budapest in 1944:
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d05c02/index.html .

Source:
https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html

<quote>
[Attorney General continues]

I come now to the last part of my reply – I hope that I shall be able to
conclude shortly – concerning Hungary.

Source:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005211&printing=yes

<quote>
RAOUL WALLENBERG AND THE RESCUE OF JEWS IN BUDAPEST

Wallenberg disappeared in January 1945 while on his way to meet Soviet
officials in Debrecen. Although his exact fate is not known, he is
presumed to have died, or been murdered, in a Soviet prison.

</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:09 EST 2005
Article: 1041024 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:50:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no>
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In article <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> So what does your Nizkor web site proof it is only a mouth organ for the
> holocaust industry. If the Germans were allowed to give us their version we
> would be more informed.

The records of deportations of Jews are from a German source: the archives
of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. I do not think that any reputable German
historian denies that millions of Jews and others were shipped across
Europe to various concentration camps in occupied Poland by train.

> The Germans were short of resources in the war why
> would they waste all their energies on the deportation of the Jews.

That is a good question, and it is well known that not all of the German
military leaders were enthusiastic about it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:09 EST 2005
Article: 1041027 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.glorb.com!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:09:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
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In article <[email protected]>, helge
<[email protected]> wrote:

> <snip />
> >>>Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> >>>limbs.
> >>
> >>of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush –
> >>just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
> >>their “truth” is “political truth” and holocau$t propaganda falls into
> >>the same category: the “truth” about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
> >>chemical weapons is as true as the “truth” about German “gas vans” or
> >>”extermination camps” – it is the same lie by the same liars…
> >
> >
> > Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
> > different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
> > sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people.
>
> of course that is not true: soviet officials [actually all communist
> officials in Eastern Europe] kept lying about the Katyn massacre till
> the early 1990s – that could be hardly called a “short-term gain”.

What had really happened at Katyn was known right after the war. For
various reasons the Soviets, the Americans, the Poles, and the British
maintained a wall of silence about th Soviets having been the perpetrators
for purposes of *Realpolitik*.

> in other words the “official version” of Katyn massacre died only with
> the end of the communist rule/establishment – the same is going to
> happen to the jewish holocau$t dogma/ideology – it is going to die with
> the jewish controled establishment.

With Katyn nobody disputed that it had happened, but a wall of obfuscation
was constructed about the Soviet perpetrators for pragmatic reasons. On
the other hand, many people, including myself as a thirteen-year-old
schoolboy learning about it for the first time in history class, knew that
the Soviets had done it. With respect to the Rumbula massacre, which
involved almost twice a many people as Katyn and unlike it, was done in
broad daylight along a route from a centrally located ghetto to a killing
site a few hundred meters from a major railway line, you would like to say
that it didn’t even happen. Nevertheless, there are eyewitnesses,
photographs, and news broadcasts and reports about it on the day that it
happened or shortly thereafter. For example, the December 5, 1941 *Herald
Tribune* carried an article referring to it that stated that it and
similar massacres of Jews taking place in the parts of the Soviet Union
occupied by the Nazis were “worse than slavery…it is no less than
systematic destruction” [reference: Walter Laqueur, 1980, *The Terrible
Secret. An Investigation into the Suppression of Information about
Hitler’s ‘Final Solution’. London, pg. 27].

There is an abundance of evidence that the Rumbula massacre occurred on
November 30, Rigaer Blutsonntag, and December 8, 1941, but no evidence
except your unsupported claims that it did not happen.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:10 EST 2005
Article: 1041028 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news1.google.com!proxad.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!newspeer2.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:12:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> So what does your Nizkor web site proof it is only a mouth organ for the
> holocaust industry. If the Germans were allowed to give us their version we
> would be more informed.

The records of deportations of Jews are from a German source: the archives
of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. I do not think that any reputable historian,
German or not, denies that millions of Jews and other “undesirables” s
were systematically shipped, “deported”, across Europe to various
concentration camps in occupied Poland and Ostland by train.

> The Germans were short of resources in the war why
> would they waste all their energies on the deportation of the Jews.

That is a good question, and it is well known that not all of the German
military leaders were enthusiastic about it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:10 EST 2005
Article: 1041081 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!news.alt.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:53:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <escce.1149949$8l.695033@pd7tw1no>
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In article <escce.1149949$8l.695033@pd7tw1no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Really do the people you are talking about really exist

Not now. Almost all of them are dead. But they existed 60 years ago when
the war was still being fought.

> or do the know what
> is says. Do not forget you holocaust is very unique like a hide and seek
> game where only you chosen once have all he access to all the records and
> the Germans do not.

That is really strange to hear, since the Germans themselves hold many of
the records in places such as the Bundesarchiv Berlin, the Bundesarchiv
Koblenz, the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv Freiburg, and the Berlin Document
Center. The Americans hold many important documents in the United States
Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives and the Hoover Institution on War,
Revolution, and Peace, Palo Alto, California, the Israelis have the Yad
Vashem Archives, the Russians have the Special Archive Moscow, the Poles
have Dokumenty i Materialy do Dziejow Okupacji Niemieckiej w Polsce, the
Latvians have the Latvian State Historical Arcives, the Estonians have the
Estonian State Archives. Most of these archives are opemn to legitimate
researchers, whatever their nationality. Many of them have published
selections of important documents as books, e.g. the collection of
facsimilies of documents relating to the Holocaust in Estonia, *Eesti
juutide katastroof 1941. Holocaust of Estonian Jews*, by Eugenia
Gurin-Loov, 1994. Others have made copies of collections of scanned
documents available online, such as the special collections from the
Institute of Documentation in Israel, made avilable by the Multimedia
Learning Center of the Museum of Tolerance of the Wiesenthal Institute at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/index.html.

> As for your German historians you are talking abut are
> this the once that are approved by your holocausters after most of the
> political not correct once lost their jobs. Did you ever hear of the great
> histories strike in Germany ?.

I have not heard of the “history strike”, but I have heard of the
*Historikerstreit*, see
http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/Historians_Controv.html.

As I understand the *Historikerstreit*, it involves a controversy between
some conservative German historians such as Ernst Nolte who come quite
close to being Holocaust deniers without actually going off the deep end,
and scholars with a more orthodox approach to German history, such as
Jürgen Habermas. Nolte claims that the Germans had the right to ³intern²
Jews anywhere in Europe because Zionist leader and future president of
Israel Chaim Weizmann had declared a war of all Jews against Nazism in
September 1939. According to Nolte, Weizmann¹s declaration of war provided
Hitler with the justification to implement the threat he had been making
for years to destroy the Jews. Nolte does not deny the Holocaust, but
rather sees it as a reaction to something even worse, Bolshevism, a
movement that found support among many Jews. He claims that more Aryans
than Jews were killed ay Auschwitz, but does not deny that hundreds of
thousands of people were killed there. He deprecates the importance of the
Wannsee Conference with respect to the implementation of the Final
Solution, but does not deny that it took place or that the Nazis were
systematically killing Jews. Nolte’s viewpoint is interesting, because his
main argument is that Hitler may have had “rational” reasons for attacking
the Jews. Most scholars researchng the Holocaust come to the opposite
conclusion: the Holocaust differs from all other known genocides because
Nazi Germany had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose, as it did,
by irrationally squandering its limited resources by fighting an
all-fronts war and rounding up, deporting, and then either enslaving or
killing Jews at the same time. For more on Nolte and his views, see
http://www.osborne-conant.org/nolt_comment.htm.

Neither Ernst Nolte nor David Irving is a knee-jerk reflex Holocaust
denier, such as Morghus or Helge in this forum. Instead, they interpret
the Holocaust in ways that suit their own agenda, which appears to be
minimalizing the evil generated by (Irving) or finding rational
justification for (Nolte) Hitler’s policies towards the Jews of Europe.

> Go check it out you are much closer that you
> think.

I’ve checked them out. Neither is a Holocaust denier, they are both
controversial revisionists. Nolte, who holds a position at the Freie
Universität in Berlin and whose views are sometimes supported by the
*Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung*, is regarded in most circles as a
respectable and respected historian, even if he is a Hitler apologist to
some degree. David Irving, on the other hand, has been demonstrated to be
a dishonest historian who deliberately manipulates or suppresses
information as he sees fit to further his own agenda.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:10 EST 2005
Article: 1041113 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:52:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4271cd2c$0$266[email protected]>
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In article
<4271cd2c$0$266$[email protected]>,
“Ben Cramer” <[email protected]> wrote:

> “Eugene Holman” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]…

<deletions>
> >
> > Here is a link to a collection of documents dealing with Adolf Eichmann’s
> > activities in Budapest in 1944:
> > http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d05c02/index.html .
>
> That would be a reliable and source of unbiased opinion, would it not?

Criticize the message, not the messenger. Adolf Eichmann, whose job it was
to arrange transportation for Holocaust deportees, was in Budapest in 1944
and he accomplished much of what he had been assigned to do. The documents
selected for this selection simply attest to that.

> >
> > Source:
> >
https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html
>
> and ditto

Ditto ditto. Eichmann was abducted by Israeli intelligence from Argentina,
where he had been in hiding since the end of the war, and tried in Israel
in 1961. The complete transcripts of his trial are available on the web at
https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/. They are
transcripts with no extraneous editorializing. Once again, criticize the
message, not the messenger.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:10 EST 2005
Article: 1041114 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving’s skewed account of the Riga “Blutsonntag” massacre
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:08:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> If Jecklin’s “confession” of a Himmler order under interrogation was
> made to Soviet investigators then David Irving was quite justified in
> ignoring it.

The problem is that study of Himmler’s diaries and appointment books is
consistent with what Jeckeln testified (DKHH, pgs. 278, 280, 283-284), as
is also the intercept by British intelligence of a discussion of the Riga
massacres (Public Record Office, London HW 16/32, intercept of Himmler to
Jeckeln). Jeckeln confessed to nothing at his trial in Riga that was not
already indepdendently documented elsewhere.

He was thus not justified in ignoring it because it is supported by other
evidence.

> Unless Evans et al also believe that Buharin was a Japanese
> intelligence asset, the British were infilitrating wreckers to
> undermine Soviet industrial progress and the leaders of the Warsaw
> Uprising 44 were secretly in the pay of the SS.
>
> All of which are *evidence* that has emerged from the gentle persuasive
> methods of the Soviets.

Jeckeln was the highest police officer in Ostland from late 1941 until the
end of the war. The atrocities that took place there under his supervision
did not require Soviet persuasive methods to be revealed.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:11 EST 2005
Article: 1041117 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com!newsread.com!news-xfer.newsread.com!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving’s skewed account of the Riga “Blutsonntag” massacre
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:44:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> If Jecklin’s “confession” of a Himmler order under interrogation was
> made to Soviet investigators then David Irving was quite justified in
> ignoring it.

The problem is that study entries in Himmler’s diaries and appointment books are
consistent with Jeckeln’s testimony (*Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmels
1941/42*, pgs. 278, 280, 283-284) that he was acting on Himmler’s orders,
as is also the intercept by British intelligence of a discussion of the
Riga massacres (Public Record Office, London HW 16/32, intercept of
Himmler to Jeckeln). Jeckeln confessed to nothing at his trial in Riga
that had not already been independently documented elsewhere and further
corroborated by additional eyewitness testimony of perpetrators, victims
who had managed to escape, and bystanders.

Irving was thus not justified in ignoring it because it is supported by
and consistent with all other evidence.

Jeckeln was the highest police officer in Ostland from late 1941 until the
end of the war. The atrocities that took place there when he was the top
enchillada, many of them committed in broad daylight, some of them
photographed and even filmed by the SS, did not require Soviet persuasive
methods to be revealed.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:11 EST 2005
Article: 1041128 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:36:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 218
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <_Eoce.1158294$6l.393389@pd7tw2no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> So this archive hold selected information and not all of it.

That is the case with *all* archives. Not every document ever generated is
regarded as worth storing in an archive, and within every archive that I
know of various degree of accessibility apply to certain documents. Some
of the documents dealng with the assassination of John F. Kennedy, for
example, will only become available to the research community in 2038, 75
years after the event.

> From the
> surviving camp guards from Auschwitz and other camps how many of them were
> allowed in public and express their opinions.

Many of them served as witnesses at Nuremberg and other post-war trials.

For example:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Auschwitz-guards-life-of-lingering-nightmares/2005/01/26/1106415663534.html?oneclick=true

<quote>
Auschwitz guard’s nightmares linger
By Allan Hall
Age Correspondent
Berlin
January 27, 2005

Sixty years on, Oskar Groening finally speaks out about the horrors he
witnessed.

As the world commemorates the liberation of Auschwitz, Oskar Groening, its
last surviving German guard, will wake with the nightmares that have
haunted him for 60 years.

Mr Groening, now 83, worked in the Nazis’ top human abattoir for more than
2? years as the gas chambers and ovens disposed of more than 1.1 million
people.

He has lived a comfortable life in a suburb of Hamburg, his neighbours
unaware of his dark past.

Apart from brief testimony at trials of gas chamber operators and the SS
high command, he has never spoken of the camp – until now.

A 1948 tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began work as the manager
of a glass factory. But he never really left Auschwitz and it never left
him.

“Every night and every day I remember it for the nightmare it was,” he
said in Bild, Germany’s most widely read newspaper. “It was in 1942 that
my SS chiefs in Berlin ordered me there.

“I was an official in the prisoners’ possessions administration which
basically involved removing the money, jewels and other valuables from the
inmates, registering it and sending it back to Berlin.

“They had diamonds and gold worth millions and it was my duty to make sure
all of it got to Berlin.

“It was completely understood by all that the majority were going straight
to the gas chamber, although some believed they were only going to be
showered before going to work. Many Jews knew they were going to die.

“One time a drunken SS man discovered a crying baby on the platform. He
grabbed the waif by its legs and smashed its head against the side of a
truck. My blood froze when I saw it.

“When I saw this I went to my superior officers and made an application
for a transfer to the front, to anywhere. But he refused.

Down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in
every waking moment. I will never be free of them.”

“It was becoming harder and harder to suppress everything I saw. On one
night in January 1943 I saw for the first time how the Jews were actually
gassed.

“It was in a half-built farmyard near to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. A
gas chamber was built there. We were searching the wood nearby for
prisoners who had escaped.

“There were more than 100 prisoners and soon there were panic-filled cries
as they were herded into the chamber and the door was shut.

“Then a sergeant with a gasmask went to a hole in the wall and from a tin
shook Zyklon B gas pellets inside. In that moment the cries of the people
inside rose to a crescendo, a choir of madness. These cries I have ringing
in my ears to this day.

“I again made an application for a transfer and at the end of October 1944
I was shipped to the Belgian Ardennes where I served with a fighting unit
until capture.

“But you can imagine that down the years I have heard the cries of the
dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of
them.

“I have never been back there because of my shame. This guilt will never
leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement.”
</quote>

> If they would have send a
> letter to a local news paper would it ever have been published ?.

Wouldn’t it depend on what was in the letter?

> You can
> believe whatever you want victimizing other to express their opinion about
> the holocaust only point the finger at you guys.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say? And who is pointing a
finger at anybody? Certainly not I. The German soldiers who were forced to
participate in mass murders, convinced that they risked summary execution
if they were to disobey clearly criminal orders, were Holocaust victims as
much as the people who they were forced to kill. Not even everyone in the
Nazi hierarchy was a Holocaust supporter. Hinrich Lohse, the civil
governer of Ostland, was distressed about the Riga massacre because he had
expected to exploit the Riga Jews economically. As it was, people with the
skills needed by the German war effort to manufacture the winter clothing,
ear protectors, and other equipment they had originally thought they would
not need when embarking on the invasion of the Soviet Union, were
ruthlessly slaughtered. The factories where they had been working on
November 28, 1941, turning out matériel needed by the Wehrmacht, stood
empty after December 8. A similar viewpoint was expressed by German
general Walter Brums who participated in the Riga massacre. He expressed
his views about its economic insanity a few years later when discussing it
with fellow POWs [http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/].

Source: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x15/xm1504.html

<quote>
<deletions>
Between 1941 and 1944 Lohse functioned as Reichskommissar for the Ostland,
with his headquarters in Riga . This was the period when, under his
supervision, the “final solution” was implemented in the Baltic and
Belorussian areas.

Attitude toward Jewish Labor.
Lohse instructed his subordinates that ghetto inmates were to receive the
bare minimum of food rations necessary to sustain life, until the
machinery for the “Final Solution” was fully operative. Nonetheless, the
mass shootings in the Vilna ghetto and elsewhere led him to question
whether “all Jews, regardless of age or sex, or their usefulness to the
economy (for instance, as skilled workers in the Wehrmacht ‘s ordnance
factories), were to be liquidated.” When he was informed that this was
indeed the case, Lohse acquiesced.

Postwar Trial.
He was arrested in 1945 and sentenced in 1948 to ten years’ penal
servitude, but was released in 1951 on grounds of ill health. The pension
he drew from the local authorities of Schleswig – Holstein was withdrawn
under pressure from the Bonn government, not because of the war crimes he
had committed, but because of his record as an enemy of democracy during
his political activity in Schleswig – Holstein.
</quote>

> Your whole attitude and the
> way you people go about it will even raise more questions again. There is no
> freedom of speech in Germany especially when it comes the holocaust.

Doen’t the *Historikerstreit* indicate that different interpretations of
it, including one coming precipitously close to Holocaust denial, have
been a matter of vigorous public debate in Germany? Although I disagree
with Ernst Nolte’s general line of thinking, I certainly share his opinion
that some of the alternatives to Nazism were as bad, or even worse, than
it was.

> Nothing
> has really changed since the 3rd reich you people are only another replica
> of it.

How does “you people” apply to me? I am not a Jew and am not pushing any
kind of Jewish agenda. Neither am I anti-German. My standpoint is that the
Holocaust is the best documented genocide in human history and there is no
reason to resort to claims that documents are forged, perpetrators were
tortured, and evidence planted in order to prove that something happened
that really didn’t. Nazi policy towards the Jews, first in Germany,
subsequently in its Empire and sphere of influence, evolved from
relatively benign forced migration to pogroms, incarceration, and severe
limitations on human rights, to public mass murder, to a finely tuned
mixture of mass murder of Jews incapable of work in special institutions,
and cynical exploitation of the rest of them to support the German war
effort and thus enable even more Jews to be captured and killed or
exploited by the Nazi war machine. It is a very complex story, and it has
as many shades of gray as it does black and white.

I am currently reading Christopher R. Browning’s recently published *The
Origins of the Final Solution. The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy
1939-1942*, Arrow Books, 2005. When not doing that or my everyday job, I
am translating Finnish historian Hannu Rautkallio’s recent book
*Holokaustilta pelastetut* [= ‘Rescued from the Holocaust’], a detailed
study of what countries that were allied or collaborated with, or were
economic partners of Germany such as Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, Hungary,
Italy, and Sweden did when their governments became aware of what was
happening to the Jews in territory controlled by the Germans. The book
relies on archival sources that have only recently been made accessible to
the scholarly community. It gives a unique view of the international and
individual efforts made to rescue European Jews trapped within the German
sphere of influence from the Holocaust as it was unfolding. It also
focuses on the unique fate of the Finnish Jewish community. Although
Finland was in a limited military alliance with Nazi Germany, Germany
never followed up on pressure it had initially put on Finland to hand over
its Jews to the Gestapo. From 1941 until Finland left the war against the
USSR in 1944, Finnish Jews fought side by side with German soldiers
against a common enemy, the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, the Germans had
drawn up plans to round up and deport Finnish Jews should the opportunity
arise. Aware of this, the Finnish Jews had an evacuation plan to escape to
Sweden if the alliance of convenience between them and the Nazis were to
break down.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:11 EST 2005
Article: 1041137 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving’s skewed account of the Riga “Blutsonntag” massacre
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:02:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>, “Emil Müller”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> “Eugene Holman” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]…
> >
> […]
> > The problem is that study of Himmler’s diaries and appointment books is
> > consistent with what Jeckeln testified (DKHH, pgs. 278, 280, 283-284),

pg. 278: November 30, 13.30. An entry about a call by Himmler to Heydrich:
“Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung.”
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html]
[Other sources indicate that this refer to a trainload of Jews that had
left Berlin on November 27, arriving at the Rumbula siding early in the
morning of November 30. The Jews in it were awakneed that morning at shot
between 6.00 and 9.00, when the first columns of Jews arrived from the
ghetto.] Himmler’s telephone call had been too late.

pg. 280: December 1. An entry that Himmler discussed the Judenexekutionen
in Riga with Heydrich. The conversation was intercepted by British
military intelligence, see below.

pg. 284: December 4. Himmler orders Jeckeln to his headquarters and they
discuss the “Judenfrage”.

After this there is a change in policy:
1. the destruction of the local Riga Jews is continued on December 8.
2. the 21 transports of Jews from central Europe that subsequently arrive
in Riga are, with two exceptions, settled in the Riga ghetto, which has
been cleared of Latvian Jews, or in the two main concentration camps
serving Riga, Salaspils and Jungfernfof, cf. DKHH pgs. 283-284. See also
Ezergailis, A. *The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944*, Riga, pg. 253.

The two exceptions are:
a. A transport of Jews from Theresienstadt that left on January 15, 1942
and is liquidated on arrival, cf. Adler, H. G., 1960, *Theresienstadt
1941-1945: Das Antlitz einer Zwangsgemeinschaft*, 2nd edition, pg. 799.
b. A transport of Jews that left Vienna on February 10, 1942 had 700 of
its 1,000 deportees gassed in a gas van upon arrival, cf. Safrian, Hans,
1993, *Die Eichmann-Männer*, Wien, pgs. 180-181.

> Assuming that DKHH means “Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmler”, pgs. 278, 280,
> 283-284 do not include a single mention by Himmler about what Jeckeln
> testified later to SMERSH. I just checked it out myself in my copy of that
> book.
> If you are referring to some footnotes in that book made by Gerlach, a left
> wing anti-fascist German historian, and others, these are biased
> interpretations and of no interest at al.

Jeckeln later testified [Source:
http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html]:

<quote>
<deletions>
A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to the liquidation
site. Near the pits, they had to deposit their overclothes, which were
washed, sorted, and shipped back to Germany. Jews – men, women, and
children – passed through police cordons on their way to the pits, where
they were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in Riga had
been liquidated. And then when I was in Lötzen, East Prussia, in December
1941, I reported in person, too. Himmler was satisfied with the results.
He said that more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia, and these
were to be liquidated by me also.
<deletions>
</quote>

The personal report to Himmler is the meeting of December 4 (DKHH, pg. 284)

> > as
> > is also the intercept by British intelligence of a discussion of the Riga
> > massacres (Public Record Office, London HW 16/32, intercept of Himmler to
> > Jeckeln).
>
> Again, Himmler says nothing about a Riga massacre in the intercept. Why do
> you make this up?

Source: k/Auschwitz/docs/decodes_RFSS011241.html

Dec. 1, 1941. “Die in das Gebiet Ostland ausgesiedelten Juden sind nur
nach den von mir bezw. vom Reichssicherheitsheuptamt in meinem Auftrag
gegebenen Richlinien zu behandeln. Eigenmächtigkeiten und
Zuwiederhandlungen würde ich bestrafen.”

Himmler’s remark has to be understood within the context of his delayed
appeal to Heydrich on the day before. The entry in his telephone log
concerning the discussion of which this is an intercept is
“Judenexekutionen in Riga”.

> > Jeckeln confessed to nothing at his trial in Riga that was not
> > already independently documented elsewhere.
>
> Nonsense.

Jeckeln testified [Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html]:
– that the shootings were carried out under the direction of
Colonel Dr. Lange, Commander of the SD and Gestapo in
Latvia;
– that he, Jeckeln, had taken part in the shootings on three
occasions;
– that the methodology involved marching the Jews from the ghetto to the
killing site, that they were made to undress, and that they were shot in
pits;
– that he had reported to Himmler that he had liquidated the ghetto;
– that Himmler had told him that more Judenstransports were on the way and
that they should be liquidated as well.

Archival records of the activities and assignemtns of the German
occupation government in Ostland make it easy to confirm the role played
by Dr. Lange. Since Jeckeln was the person who had been assigned to
organize the shooting, it would be strang indeed if he were not there
when it was actually taking place. The methodology used,
*Sardinenpackung*, had been perfected by Jeckeln and was certainly no
secret in 1945. That he had reported personally to Himmler about the
events of November 30 is confirmed by the entry on pg. 284 of Himmler’s
Dienstkalender, which states that the “Judenfrage” was discussed with
SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln. And other sources provide evidence that more
Judentransports arrived in Latvia, and that their inhabitants were either
liquidated on arrival or put into the strict regime concentration camps
Salapils or jungfernhof, where almost all of them died of exposure,
overwork, shootings, disease, starvation, or brutality.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:12 EST 2005
Article: 1041139 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:19:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <escce.1149949$8l.695033@pd7tw1no> <[email protected]> <_Eoce.1158294$6l.393389@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <uKqce.1158504$Xk.1037944@pd7tw3no>
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In article <uKqce.1158504$Xk.1037944@pd7tw3no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> in case of Germany a lot information after the war was there but not
> available to the German people.

That is understandable. After the war Germany ceased to exist as a state
and was occupied for three years by the victorious powers until
sovereignty was eventually restored.

So many documents were captured, though, that today, almost sixty years
later, not all of them have been fully classified or analyzed. So, what
you are saying is true but uninteresting.

What kind of information do you claim was not made available to the German
peiople? What is the source of your claim, and what do you think would
happen if the information in question were to be released?

> You people are history manipulators and you
> will make sure no one gets to see the whole thing.

Explain how the phrase “you people” applies to me. The whole thing is so
immensely complex that nobody can get to see it all. The object of this
forum is to evaluate and discuss the evidence of an evolving Nazi policy
that targeted Jews, first to humiliate them and force them out of public
life in Germany, then to force them to emigrate while confiscating their
property and assets, then to force them into detention centers and forced
deportation, then, after the start of the war, to arrest, dispossess,
ghettoize, deport, and then either kill or enslave not only the Jews of
Germany but also those of all or at least the overwhelming majority of the
countries occupied by or allied with Germany.
<snip>

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:12 EST 2005
Article: 1041142 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Friedrich Jeckeln, a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:43:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <oWqce.33372$[email protected]>, “Blue Ice”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Hail Friberga!:-))
>
> Thank you, Professor Holman.
> I am wondering wether the property of the victims
> was confiscated.

Yes. It was.

Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html

<quote>
<deletions
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln

In his interrogation on 14 December 1945, (1) Minutes the Higher SS and
Police Leader Jeckeln detailed the operations that fell within the
framework of the Final Solution in the East:

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

****************

(1) Minutes from Jeckeln’s interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8 – 13,
Historical State Archives, Riga.

(2) Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia.

<deletions>
Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of
California Press. 1984. pp. 95 – 98

<deletions>
</quote

Source:http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html

<quote>
<deletions>
BRUNS: I’ll tell you something: some of the details may have been
correct, but it was remarkable that the firing squad detailed that morning
– six men with tommy-guns were posted at each pit; the pits were 24 m in
length and 3 m in breadth – they had to lie down like sardines in a tin,
with their heads in the centre. Above there were six men with tommy-guns
who gave them the coup de grāce. When I arrived those pits were so full
that the living had to lie down on top of the dead; then they were shot
and, in order to save room, they had to lie down neatly in layers. Before
this, however, they were stripped of everything at one of the stations –
here at the edge of the wood were the three pits they used that Sunday and
here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step – a
queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on.
About here they had to hand over their jewellery and suitcases. All good
stuff was put into the suit-cases and the remainder thrown on a heap. This
was to serve as clothing for our suffering population – and then a little
further on they had to undress and, 500 m in front of the wood, strip
completely; they were only permitted to keep on a chemise or knickers.
They were all women and small two year-old children.
<deletions>
</quote>

According to Ezergailis (1996, Chapter 8, downloadable at
http://www.rumbula.org/remembering_rumbula.htm ) sorting, classifying,
storing, evaluating, guarding, and either disposing of or shipping the
confiscated Jewish property back to Germany required an extraordinary
amount of work and time.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:13 EST 2005
Article: 1041143 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-14!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving’s skewed account of the Riga “Blutsonntag” massacre
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:54:56 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <Uycce.1148501$Xk.76808@pd7tw3no> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <d4t9q6$298$1@domitilla.aioe.org> <NMqce.1158584$Xk.993223@pd7tw3no>
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In article <NMqce.1158584$Xk.993223@pd7tw3no>, “Kurt Knoll”
<[email protected]> wrote:

> The holocaust industry must survive Holman is part of the Nizkor Gang and
> here to create confusion.

I am not part of the “Nizkor gang”, nor am I here to create confusion. I
have listed the references to Himmler’s *Dienstkalender*. Emil seems to be
trying to claim that just because the Rumbula action is not referred to
explicitly, but rather only alluded to in general terms such as
*Judenexekutionen* and *Judentransport*, that we have no basis for
relating Himmler’s interaction with Heydrich and Jecklen between November
30 and December 4, 1941 to the Rumbula massacre of Latvian and deported
Berlin Jews on November 30 and December 8, 1941.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:13 EST 2005
Article: 1041248 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!sjc-c01.usenetserver.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:46:39 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <w58ce.1149448$6l.359269@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <escce.1149949$8l.695033@pd7tw1no> <[email protected]> <_Eoce.1158294$6l.393389@pd7tw2no> <[email protected]> <4272b171$0$262[email protected]>
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In article
<4272b171$0$262$[email protected]>,
“Ben Cramer” <[email protected]> wrote:

> “Eugene Holman” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]…
> > How does “you people” apply to me? I am not a Jew and am not pushing any
> > kind of Jewish agenda.
>
> Each and every one of your poste attests to a different version of that
> statement.

Nasty things happened during and immediately after WW II, the Holocaust
being arguably the nastiest. Why? The destruction of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki with nuclear weapons, the incineration of Dresden, Hamburg, and
Pforzheim by carpet bombing, the rapine expulsion of German populations
>from the Sudetenland, East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia, or even the
obliteration of Lidice, were all actions against a clearly defined foe
taken for strategic advantage. The argument can be made that the
aforementioned atrocities, however horrible, were all justified in the
name of bringing the war to a quicker end and thus *rational*, even if
also unquestionably immoral. The Holocaust, in contrast, was a singularly
*irrational* policy of hate targeting almost exclusively people who were
not German citizens and who had little if anything to do with Germany or
its interests. Unlike the case in “normal” genocides, the Jews whose
misfortune it was to live in Germany’s expanding empire or sphere of
influence were not killed to gain access to their land or natural
resources. Although their clothing, personal effects, and bank accounts
were stolen by the Nazis, this was a diversion compared to their main
goal: to “cleanse” Europe of Jews and other “undesirables”, even at the
cost of taking measures incompatible with fighting an all-fronts war with
few resources or allies of substance, by enslaving and eventually killing
or allowing to die those who could be cynically forced to work for the
German war effort, and killing those who could not as soon as possible,
often using finely honed industrial methods. Study of the Holocaust
reveals how thin the veneer of civilization is even in a country reputed
to be exceptionally civilized and modern. It shows what evil products of
civilization originally intended to improve the quality of human life can
produce in the hands of depraved but intelligent people.

One need not be a Jew to point this out, nor is subjecting it to critical
scrutiny part of any “Jewish agenda”.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:13 EST 2005
Article: 1041249 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com!proxad.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:48:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
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Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1041249

In article
<4272b171$0$262$[email protected]>,
“Ben Cramer” <[email protected]> wrote:

Nasty things happened during and immediately after WW II, the Holocaust
being arguably the nastiest. Why? The destruction of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki with nuclear weapons, the incineration of Dresden, Hamburg, and
Pforzheim by carpet bombing, the rapine expulsion of German populations
>from the Sudetenland, East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia, or even the
obliteration of Lidice, were all actions against a clearly defined foe
taken for strategic advantage. The argument can be made that the
aforementioned atrocities, however horrible, were all justified in the
name of bringing the war to a quicker end and thus *rational*, even if
also unquestionably immoral. The Holocaust, in contrast, was a singularly
*irrational* policy of hate targeting almost exclusively people who were
not German citizens and who had little if anything to do with Germany or
its interests. Unlike the case in “normal” genocides, the Jews whose
misfortune it was to live in Germany’s expanding empire or sphere of
influence were not killed to gain access to their land or natural
resources. Although their clothing, personal effects, and bank accounts
were stolen by the Nazis, this was a diversion compared to their main
goal: to “cleanse” Europe of Jews and other “undesirables”, even at the
cost of taking measures incompatible with winning an all-fronts war with
few resources or allies of substance, by enslaving and eventually killing
or allowing to die those who could be cynically forced to work for the
German war effort, and killing those who could not as soon as possible,
often using finely honed industrial methods. Study of the Holocaust
reveals how thin the veneer of civilization is even in a country reputed
to be exceptionally civilized and modern. It shows what evil products of
civilization originally intended to improve the quality of human life can
produce in the hands of depraved but intelligent people.

One need not be a Jew to point this out, nor is subjecting it to critical
scrutiny part of any “Jewish agenda”.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:14 EST 2005
Article: 1041250 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-13!supernews.com!freenix!usenet-fr.net!nerim.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Friedrich Jeckeln, a Holocaust mass murderer (was Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:55:08 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi
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In article <oisce.33418$[email protected]>, “Blue Ice”
<[email protected]> wrote:

<deletions>
>
> Interesting, but the Germans couldn’t transfer the real estate assets.

They could, however, get their hands on deeds, and then sell or auction
the property off. Mass murder of ghettoized Jews was labor intensive, but
it produced substantial profits. Since the Nazis thought that the Jews
were parasites and had obtained their wealth and property by swindling the
host population, they regarded recovering this “stolen wealth” as
legitimate policy.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:14 EST 2005
Article: 1041258 of alt.revisionism
Path: sn-us!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!207.217.77.43.MISMATCH!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!83.128.0.12.MISMATCH!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!xindi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi!user
From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:03:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 354
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, [email protected] wrote:

<deletions>
> >
> > I am also a linguist, and perhaps this will help.
>
>
> Sure your are a linguist; one of those holocaust linguist who strives
> to give a homicidal flavor to every German language document no matter
> what the document says. Let’s all look at your latest linguistic
> exercise in translating a message by Reinhard Heydrich:
>
>
> > <quote>
> >
> > Zur Beseitigung aller Mi=DFverst=E4ndnisse teile ich folgendes mit:
> >
> > …ist zu unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher
> =FCblichen
> > Wege erledigt werden k=F6nnen, und solchen, welche einer
> Sonderbehandlung
> > zugef=FChrt werden m=FCssen. Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um
> solche
> > Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer
> > Gef=E4hrlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet
> sind,
> > ohne Ansehung der Person durch r=FCcksichtloses Vorgehen (n=E4mlich
> durch
> > Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.
> >
> > </quote>
> >
> > [translation]
> >
> > To clear up all misunderstandings, I inform you of the following:
> >
> > … a differentiation is to be made between those who can be finished
> > off in the hitherto usual way, and those to whom a special treatment
> > applies. In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
> > because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
> > consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
> > eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
> >
> > [/translation]
> >
>
>
> That’s quite a translation. The holohuckster is so anxious to give
> German words some sinister meaning he winds with Heydrich
> distinguishing between killing in the normal way and killing in a
> special way. Summarized, the claim is that Heydrich wrote that a
> distinction was to be made between those who could be “finished off” in
> the normal way, and those who would be killed by “ruthless execution.”
> Obviously something’s wrong with that standard holohuckster type of
> translation.
>
> In fact, Heydrich’s message says nothing about killing anyone. The
> word “ruthless” is no where to be found in the message.
> “R=FCcksichtlos” doesn’t mean “ruthless,” it means “irrespective” or
> “regardless.”

Not quite.

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/
<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für rücksichtslos
8 results for rücksichtslos

rücksichtslos ;gefährlich ;gewagt {adj}
reckless

rücksichtslos {adj}
inconsiderate

rücksichtslos {adj}
irrespective

rücksichtslos {adv}
irrespectively

rücksichtslos {adv}
regardlessly

rücksichtslos {adj}
unthoughtful

rücksichtslos {adv}
unthoughtfully

raubeinig ;rücksichtslos {adj}
roughshod

über etw .rücksichtslos hinweggehen
to ride roughshod over sth .

<quote>

As you can see, the word has more negative than neutral semantics.

“Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden.”

<translation>
In the latter case it concerns such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are suitable
to be eliminated using a [rücksichtlos-es] procedure (specifically by
execution) with no regard to the person.
</translation>

This procedure is “reckless”, “inconsiderate”, “irrespective”,
“unthoughtful”, or “roughshod”, according to the translations offered by
the dictionary. None of them fit as such. The word “ruthless” might be too
strong, but “merciless”, “uncharitable”, “rash”, or “cruel” all capture
nuances of the word.

> But it sounds awfully sinister when mistranslated to
> “ruthless,” doesn’t it? In the same way, “erledigt” doesn’t mean
> “finished off” in the sense of killing; it means “managed” or “dealt
> with.”

The verb “erledigen”, of which “erledigt” is the past participle, normally
means “to finish off” in the sense of “to kill” if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617

<quote>
Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt.
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

Dann hat er sich mit seiner Sniper positioniert. Ein sogenannter Camper³
also, der sich irgendwo versteckt und nicht rauskommt. Also, ich schlich
mich an und Zack!!! Eine Salve aus meiner Heckler & Koch hat ihn erledigt.
[Then he positioned himself with his Sniper. It was a so-called “Camper”,
you see, who hides himself somewhere and doesn’t emerge. Thus, I crept up
and Bam!!! A salvo from my Heckler & Koch finished him off [hat ihn
erledight].]

</quote>

> “Ausgemerzt” does not mean “kill”; it means “weed out.”

It has several senses from the standpoint of English:

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/

<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für ausmerzen
8 results for ausmerzen

ausmerzen
to weed out; to sort out

ausmerzen d
weeding out; sorting out

ausgemerzt
weeded out; sorted out

ausmerzen; ausrotten
to wipe out ;to stamp out

ausmerzen
to comb out

ausmerzen (Erinnerung )
to blot out

ausrotten; ausmerzen ;vertilgen
to eradicate

ausrottend; ausmerzen d; vertilgend
eradicating

ausgerottet; ausgemerzt; vertilgt
eradicated

rottet aus
eradicates

rottete aus
eradicated

tilgen; ausmerzen
to obliterate

tilgend
obliterating

getilgt
obliterated

Reduktionsabschuss {m}; Erlegen {n} überschüssiger Tierbestände; Ausmerzen {n}
cull

überschüssige Tierbestände erlegen; keulen; ausmerzen
to cull
</quote>

As the above example indicates, it means “to eradicate”, “obliterate”, or
“cull” when the direct object is [+animate].

> And
> “exekution” doesn’ mean kill; it means to “seize” or “impound,” or
> both.

You keep repeating this nonsense. But ‘Exekution’ and ‘exekutieren’ in
German have several meanings, just as the corresponding words ‘execution’
and ‘to execute’ do in English. Nevertheless, the context makes it clear
which sense is meant. Consider the following:

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Als Liu Shaoqi sich dem Vorsitzenden entgegenstellte, wäre selbst sein Tod
nicht genug gewesen, um für seine Verbrechen zu büßen. Als Zhang Zhixin es
versuchte und wagte, ihr Urteil über Liu Shaoqi zu annullieren, wurde sie
eingesperrt und von den Gefängniswärtern vergewaltigt. Ihre Kehle wurde
aufgeschnitten und sie wurde exekutiert.

[When Lie Shaoqi opposed the chairperson, even his death would have not
sufficed to atone for his crimes. When Zhang Zhixin tried and dared to
annul her sentence for Liu Shaoqi, she was incarcerated and raped by the
prison guards. Her throat was cut pen and she was executed.]

> The hucksters also like to play with the difficult German word order.
> By transposing into English without bothering to set the words in
> proper order, they can often change the meaning of German writings even
> though the words are translated literally. In this case, Heydrich was
> saying that “special treatment” should not be afforded to undesirables.
> Here’s what Heydrich actually said:
>
> “to distinguish between those who can be managed in the up-to-now usual
> way and those who must be afforded special treatment. In the latter
> case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
> dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
> regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
> by seizing and impounding them.”

Let’s go through your translation. Here is the source text again:
“Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden.”

> In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness,

You completely mistranslate the first clause. It says:

Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind,…
<in the latter case it pertains to such circumstances, which, with respect
to their despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are
suitable,…>

You have:
” In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

“handelt es sich um” means “concerns” or “petrtains to”. It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their “their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact”.

Your “regardless of their reputation standing” mean nothing. The German
“ohne Ansehung der Person ” simply means “without regard to the person” or
“whoever the person may be”.

The German “durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen” is a prepositional phrase
consisting of the preposition “durch”, meaning “through/by means of” and a
premodified noun “rücksichtloses Vorgehen”, meaning
“merciless/rash/coarse/cruel procedure”. Your “regardless of their
reputation standing, to proceed” is totally off the mark. The cruel
procedure is explained using the appositive equivalent construction
(nämlich durch Exekution) in parentheses. This means (that is to
say/specifically by execution). This is a military document and written by
a German (Heydrich was born in Halle), the intended direct object of the
executions would be the people being discussed, so to translate it as
“seizing and impounding them” is far fecthed, since “Exekution” would only
have this meaning in Austrain bureaucratic usage.

Finally, “ausmerzen” has a far stronger meaning when applied to a
[+animate] direct object than “weed out”. The German …”durch Exekution
ausgemerzt zu werden” means “…to be obliterated/culled/eliminated by
means of execution”.

Source text:
“Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche Sachverhalte, die
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind, ohne Ansehung der Person
durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution) ausgemerzt zu
werden.”

Your mistranslation:
“In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them.”

This reduces to “…Circumstances…are suitable concerns, regardless of
their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by seizing and
impounding them.” and means nothing, as I am sure you will agree.

A correct translation:
“In the latter case it concerns such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable for
elimination using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) with no
regard to the person.

This reduces to:

“…[it concerns](1) [such circumstances](2) [that…are suitable](3)
{reasons enumerated} [for elimination](4) [using a cruel procedure,
execution](5), [with no regard to the person](6).”

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text:

“…[es handelt such um](1) [solche Sachverhalte](2), [die…{reasons
enumerated}…geeignet sind](3) [ohne Ansehung der Person](6) [durch
rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch Exekution)](5) [ausgemerzt zu
werden](4).”

Compare Gord’s translation, which is also accurate:

<translation>
In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
</translation>

Anyone who know German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics,and stylistics.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:15 EST 2005
Article: 1041262 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:59:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, [email protected] wrote:

Not quite.

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/
<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für rücksichtslos
8 results for rücksichtslos

rücksichtslos ;gefährlich ;gewagt {adj}
reckless

rücksichtslos {adj}
inconsiderate

rücksichtslos {adj}
irrespective

rücksichtslos {adv}
irrespectively

rücksichtslos {adv}
regardlessly

rücksichtslos {adj}
unthoughtful

rücksichtslos {adv}
unthoughtfully

raubeinig ;rücksichtslos {adj}
roughshod

über etw .rücksichtslos hinweggehen
to ride roughshod over sth .

<quote>

As you can see, the word has more negative than neutral semantics.

<translation>
In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propagandistic impact, are suitable
to be eliminated using a [rücksichtlos-es] procedure (specifically by
execution) with no regard to the person.
</translation>

The verb “erledigen”, of which “erledigt” is the past participle, normally
means “to finish off” in the sense of “to kill” if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617

<quote>
Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt.
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

</quote>

> “Ausgemerzt” does not mean “kill”; it means “weed out.”

It has several senses from the standpoint of English:

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/

<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für ausmerzen
8 results for ausmerzen

ausmerzen
to weed out; to sort out

ausmerzen d
weeding out; sorting out

ausgemerzt
weeded out; sorted out

ausmerzen; ausrotten
to wipe out ;to stamp out

ausmerzen
to comb out

ausmerzen (Erinnerung )
to blot out

ausrotten; ausmerzen ;vertilgen
to eradicate

ausrottend; ausmerzen d; vertilgend
eradicating

ausgerottet; ausgemerzt; vertilgt
eradicated

rottet aus
eradicates

rottete aus
eradicated

tilgen; ausmerzen
to obliterate

tilgend
obliterating

getilgt
obliterated

Reduktionsabschuss {m}; Erlegen {n} überschüssiger Tierbestände; Ausmerzen {n}
cull

überschüssige Tierbestände erlegen; keulen; ausmerzen
to cull
</quote>

As the above example indicates, it means “to eradicate”, “obliterate”, or
“cull” when the direct object is [+animate].

> And
> “exekution” doesn’ mean kill; it means to “seize” or “impound,” or
> both.

You keep repeating this nonsense. ‘Exekution’ and ‘exekutieren’ in
German have several meanings, just as the corresponding words ‘execution’
and ‘to execute’ do in English. Nevertheless, the context makes it clear
which sense is meant. Consider the following:

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Let’s walk through your translation. Here is the source text again:

> In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness,

You completely mistranslate the first two clauses. They say:

Im letzteren Falle [handelt es sich um](1) solche Sachverhalte, [die](2a)
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung [geeignet sind](2),…

You have:
” In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

“handelt es sich um” means “it concerns” or “it pertains to”. It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their “their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact”. the antecedent of the relative pronoun “die” is
“solche Sachverhalte” – ‘such circukstances’, but your translation has no
relative clause, no equivalent of the determiner “solch”, and, most
damningly, makes makes suitable the modifier of a noun “concerns”, a word
for which there is no equivalent in the soiurce text.

Your “regardless of their reputation standing” mean nothing in English.
The German “ohne Ansehung der Person ” simply means “without regard to the
person” or “whoever the person may be”.

A correct translation:
“In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable to
be eliminated using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) no
matter who the person might be.”

This reduces to:

“…[it pertains to](1) [such circumstances](2) [that…are suitable](3)
{reasons enumerated} [to be eliminated](4) [using a cruel procedure,
execution](5), [no matter who the person might be](6).”

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text:

Compare Gord’s translation, which is also accurate:

If I were translating this text for a client, I would revise my first
translation to be:

“In the latter case it is a question of circumstances that justify the
elimination of the individuals concerned, no matter who they are, because
of their despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, by a
cruel procedure, execution.”

Anyone who knows German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a woefully deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics,and stylistics. Moreover, the poor excuse for a
translation that you produced shows that you lack a mastery of German
sufficienyt to enable you to be criticizing the translations produced by
people who are competent in the language and have produced translations
>from it into English professionally.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:15 EST 2005
Article: 1041264 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:19:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <[email protected]>,
“morghus” <[email protected]> wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
> > On 4/27/2005 11:26 AM, [email protected] wrote:

Not quite.

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/
<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für rücksichtslos
8 results for rücksichtslos

rücksichtslos ;gefährlich ;gewagt {adj}
reckless

rücksichtslos {adj}
inconsiderate

rücksichtslos {adj}
irrespective

rücksichtslos {adv}
irrespectively

rücksichtslos {adv}
regardlessly

rücksichtslos {adj}
unthoughtful

rücksichtslos {adv}
unthoughtfully

raubeinig ;rücksichtslos {adj}
roughshod

über etw .rücksichtslos hinweggehen
to ride roughshod over sth .

<quote>

As you can see, the word has more negative than neutral semantics.

The verb “erledigen”, of which “erledigt” is the past participle, normally
means “to finish off” in the sense of “to kill” if the direct object is
[+animate]:

Source: http://www.ciao.de/Counter_Strike_Half_Life_Mod_PC__Test_2183617

<quote>
Wenn man nur eine kleine Pistole hat, wird man von einem Scharfschützen
schnell erledigt.
[If a person has only a small pistol he is quickly finished off [erledigt]
by a sharpshooter.]

</quote>

> “Ausgemerzt” does not mean “kill”; it means “weed out.”

It has several senses from the standpoint of English:

Source: http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/

<quote>
8 Ergebnisse für ausmerzen
8 results for ausmerzen

ausmerzen
to weed out; to sort out

ausmerzen d
weeding out; sorting out

ausgemerzt
weeded out; sorted out

ausmerzen; ausrotten
to wipe out ;to stamp out

ausmerzen
to comb out

ausmerzen (Erinnerung )
to blot out

ausrotten; ausmerzen ;vertilgen
to eradicate

ausrottend; ausmerzen d; vertilgend
eradicating

ausgerottet; ausgemerzt; vertilgt
eradicated

rottet aus
eradicates

rottete aus
eradicated

tilgen; ausmerzen
to obliterate

tilgend
obliterating

getilgt
obliterated

Reduktionsabschuss {m}; Erlegen {n} überschüssiger Tierbestände; Ausmerzen {n}
cull

überschüssige Tierbestände erlegen; keulen; ausmerzen
to cull
</quote>

As the above example indicates, it means “to eradicate”, “obliterate”, or
“cull” when the direct object is [+animate].

> And
> “exekution” doesn’ mean kill; it means to “seize” or “impound,” or
> both.

Source: http://www.minghui.de/articles/200504/21047p.html

Let’s walk through your translation. Here is the source text again:

1. You completely mistranslate the first two clauses. They say:

Im letzteren Falle [handelt es sich um](1) solche Sachverhalte, [die](2a)
hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer
propagandistischen Auswirkung [geeignet sind](2b),…

You have:

” In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,

“handelt es sich um” means “it concerns” or “it pertains to”. It is the
circumstances (Sachverhalte), not the concerns a noun with that meaning
does not even show up in the German text that are suitable (geeignet) as
a consequence of their “their despicableness, their danger, or their
propagandistic impact”. the antecedent of the relative pronoun “die” is
“solche Sachverhalte” – ‘such circumstances’, but your translation has no
relative clause, no equivalent of the determiner “solch”, and, most
damningly, makes “suitable” the modifier of a noun “concerns”, a word
for which there is no equivalent in the source text.

2. Your “regardless of their reputation standing” mean nothing in English.
The German “ohne Ansehung der Person ” simply means “without regard to the
person” or “whoever the person may be”.

3. The German “durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen” is a prepositional phrase
consisting of the preposition “durch”, meaning “through/by means of” and a
premodified noun “rücksichtloses Vorgehen”, meaning
“merciless/rash/coarse/cruel procedure”. Your “regardless of their
reputation standing, to proceed” is totally off the mark. The cruel
procedure is explained using the appositive equivalent construction
(nämlich durch Exekution) in parentheses. This means (that is to
say/specifically by execution). This is a military document and written by
a German (Heydrich was born in Halle) during the first half of the 20th
century, the intended direct object of the executions would be the people
being discussed, so to translate it as “seizing and impounding them” is
far fetched, since “Exekution” would only have this meaning in archaic
Austrian bureaucratic usage.

4. Finally, “ausmerzen” has a far stronger meaning when applied to a
[+animate] direct object than “weed out”. The German …”durch Exekution
ausgemerzt zu werden” means “…to be
obliterated/culled/eliminated/eradicated by
means of execution”.

Summing up, here is the source text:

Your mistranslation:

“In the latter case, Circumstances with respect to their meanness, their
dangerousness, or their propagandistic effect, are suitable concerns,
regardless of their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out
by seizing and impounding them.”

This reduces to “…Circumstances…are suitable concerns, regardless of
their reputation standing, to proceed and weed them out by seizing and
impounding them.” and means absolutely nothing, as I am sure you will agree.

A correct, close translation:

“In the latter case it pertains to such circumstances that, due to their
despicableness, their danger, or their propaganda impact, are suitable to
be eliminated using a cruel procedure (specifically by execution) no
matter who the person might be.”

This reduces to:

and reproduces the semantic and logical content of the German text:

Compare Gord’s translation, which is also accurate and relatively close:

If I were translating this text for a client, I would revise my first
translation to be:

“In the latter case it is a question of circumstances that justify the
elimination of the individuals concerned, no matter who they might be,
because of their despicableness, the danger they constitute, or their
propaganda impact, using a cruel procedure, execution.”

Anyone who knows German will agree that your attempt to produce a
translation indicates that you have a woefully deficient knowledge of German
grammar, semantics,and stylistics. Moreover, the poor excuse for a
translation that you produced shows that you lack a mastery of German
sufficient to enable you to be criticizing the translations produced by
people who are competent in the language and have at some time in their
lives produced translations from German into English professionally.

Source:
http://helka.linneanet.fi/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Beyond+the+atom&SL=None&Search_Code=TALL&PID=13004&CNT=10&SEQ=20050430171036&SID=2
<quote>
Database:
HELKA – Helsingin yliopiston kirjastot

Author(s):
Laurikainen, K. V.

Title:
Beyond the atom. The philosophical thought of Wolfgang Pauli K. V.
Laurikainen transl. Eugene Holman

Format:
Book

Published:
New York Springer 1988
</quote>

Regards,
Eugene Holman

From [email protected] Thu Dec 1 12:40:16 EST 2005
Article: 1041274 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:49:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 47
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In article
<4272b171$0$262$[email protected]>,
“Ben Cramer” <[email protected]> wrote:

Nasty things happened during and immediately after WW II, the Holocaust
being arguably the nastiest. Why? The destruction of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki with nuclear weapons, the incineration of Dresden, Hamburg, and
Pforzheim by carpet bombing, the rapine expulsion of German populations
>from the Sudetenland, East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia, or even the
obliteration of Lidice, were all actions against a clearly defined foe
taken for strategic advantage. The argument can be made that the
aforementioned atrocities, however horrible, were all justified in the
name of bringing the war to a quicker end and were thus *rational*, even
if also unquestionably immoral. The Holocaust, in contrast, was a
singularly *irrational* policy of hate, targeting almost exclusively
people who were not German citizens and who had little if anything to do
with Germany or its interests. Unlike the case in “normal” genocides, the
Jews whose misfortune it was to live or be trapped into Germany’s
expanding empire or sphere of influence, were not killed to gain access to
their land or natural resources, but rather only because they happened to
have been born or defined as Jews by the Nazis. Although their clothing,
personal effects, and bank accounts were stolen by the Nazis, this was a
diversion compared to their main goal: to “cleanse” Europe of Jews and
other “undesirables”, even at the
cost of taking measures incompatible with winning an all-fronts war with
few resources or allies of substance, by enslaving and eventually killing
or allowing to die those who could be cynically forced to work for the
German war effort, and killing those who could not as soon as possible,
often using finely honed industrial methods. Study of the Holocaust
reveals how thin the veneer of civilization is even in a country reputed
to be exceptionally civilized and modern. It shows what evil products of
civilization originally intended to improve the quality of human life can
produce in the hands of depraved but intelligent people.

One need not be a Jew to point this out, nor is subjecting it to critical
scrutiny part of any “Jewish agenda”.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

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