Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : All 2/24/97 6:04 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#574114
This is Just to let anyone know that may be interested that David Irving’s
latest work of history, Nuremberg – The Last Battle, is published this week by
Focal Point Publications in London priced at £ 20 plus p & p.
The book tells a chilling account of the ghosts that fought on in Europe for
eighteen long months after the war had ended, and makes for harrowing reading
in places.
Other works by David Irving include his excellent Bio of Hitler “Hitlers War”,
a bio of both Goering and Goebbles, Vol 1 of his Churchill Bio, End Of Empire –
VOl 2 soon and the story of the imfamous raids on Dreseden, which killed more
civilians than ALL those that had died in Britain during the war.
Focal Point are at Tel:- Int + 44 (0)171 499 9409 Fax Int + 44 (0)171 409 7048
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36272/24/97 8:42 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #574306
Kevin,
<“David Irving…VOL 2 soon and the story of Dresden, which killed more
civilians than ALL those that died in Britain during the war.”>
This isn’t to justify the firebombing of Dresden, but Hitler must have been
real disappointed at the inefficiency of Luftwaffe, V1 and V2 terror tactics
seeing as the death and destruction they heaped on British civilians simply
couldn’t compare to the efficiency the Allies demonstrated.
By the way, isn’t David Irving one of those “revisionist” writers who have
inexplicably concluded that the Holocaust either didn’t actually occur or that
it was greatly exaggerated and that Hitler really had little knowledge of “The
Final Solution?” Or do I have the wrong David Irving?
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 2/25/97 7:42 AM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #574373
Don,
>>By the way, isn’t David Irving one of those “revisionist” writers who have
inexplicably concluded that the Holocaust either didn’t actually occur or that
it was greatly exaggerated and that Hitler really had little knowledge of “The
Final Solution?” Or do I have the wrong David Irving?
You’ve got the right David Irving… his thesis is that Hitler really
had little knowledge of “The Final Solution?” Of course, it glosses over (among
other things) the fact that Hitler was an incredible micromanager and that no
one would have taken such a step without his consent.
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 2/25/97 7:51 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #574533
Don,
I can just imagine the sort of things David Irving has to say about Hitler,
Goering and Goebbels in his “wonderful” biographies of those stalwarts. And all
that moaning about Dresden as if Hitler was too much of a humanitarian to
brutalize English civilians in the same way. It is unfortunate, but you reap
what you sow. While the Luftwaffe was destroying Warsaw and Rotterdam and
killing untold thousands of innocents, English bombers were still dropping only
propaganda leaflets on German towns.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/7/97 9:10 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#576780
I do not think you have grasped the scale of what was done at Dresden;
In those two days, more people died from bombing than were killed in the whole
of the rest of the war in England.
There is simply no comparison between these raids and what had transpired
before; the scale of what was involved almost beggars description.
The destruction was total. the casulties were all civilian or refugees. There
were NO miltary or strategic targets.
The war was already won.
The guilt of this obcenity will remain a stain on this nations record forever.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/7/97 7:53 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #576909
Kevin,
<“I do not think you have grasped the scale of what was done at
Dresden;…There is simply no comparison between those raids and what had
transpired before…The war was already won.”>
I do grasp the scale of what transpired at Dresden and I certainly have no
intention of justifying it on strategic or moral grounds. On the other hand, it
must be remembered that Hitler and his military machine made war against
civilians from the very beginning of WW II and the only difference between
Rotterdam, Warsaw, Coventry and Dresden was that the Allies by 1945 had gotten
so much more efficient at destroying cities (an their inhabitants) from the air
than the Luftwaffe.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/7/97 10:44 PM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #576940
Kevin,
>>(RE Dresden:) The destruction was total. the casulties were all civilian or
refugees. There were NO miltary or strategic targets.
That is not a universal viewpoint. Quoting Max Hastings, who is quoting
“Bomber” Harris,
“.. Actually Dresden was a mass of munition works, an intact government
centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of those
things.”
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/7/97 9:04 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#576778
Don,
Please read “Hitlers War” by Irving – one of the great revalations in the book
is that Hitler was anything but the All Powerful Fuhrer we all were taught to
think of him as.
As the war wore on, more and more power was ceeded to the likes of Himmler,
Bormann, Heydrich etc and it became clearer that Hitler would not have known
much on a day to day basis of what they were doing in their own little
kingdoms.
Maybe Hitler should have known more, this may well be his greatest crime!
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/7/97 8:43 PM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #576923
Kevin,
>>Please read “Hitlers War” by Irving – one of the great revalations in the
book is that Hitler was anything but the All Powerful Fuhrer we all were taught
to think of him as.
>>As the war wore on, more and more power was ceeded to the likes of Himmler,
Bormann, Heydrich etc and it became clearer that Hitler would not have known
much on a day to day basis of what they were doing in their own little
kingdoms.
>>Maybe Hitler should have known more, this may well be his greatest crime!
I have not read that particular volume, though I have read his bio of
Goering. However, you should be aware that Irving is regarded with considerable
skepticism by a lot of historians; many of his claims have been specifically
disproven.
I must disagree with you RE “Hitler was anything but the All Powerful
Fuhrer we all were taught to think of him as”. He WAS. This is not to deny
either that his underlings had their own little fiefdoms, or that Hitler’s
abilities were slipping towards the end of the war. However, Hitler contined to
micromanage any aspect of the government and war effort that interested him.
Witness his influence on the Me-262 for a well-known example, or his control of
divisions in Normandy; and many observers cited his extraordinary grasp of
technical detail. There is no doubt that what Hitler was interested in, Hitler
controlled.
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/8/97 3:39 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#576970
I do not know of any of Irving’s claims that have been disproven.
Unlike others, where there is a claim, there is also the evidence, all
cataloged, and available on microfilm to anyone else that cares to use it/ see
it/ refer to it.
This is an irritating habit of David’s and to my mind, is the motive for much
of the flack he draws.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/8/97 9:08 AM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #577002
Kevin,
<“I do not know of any of David’s [Irving] claims that have been disproved…”>
<PMFJI>
Do you mean the one about Hitler not knowing about the extermination of Jews,
and other such “untermenschen” and the so-called “Euthanasia Program”? If you
do, I can certainly fill my messages with documentation to the contrary. If you
want it, you’ll get it.
How does Irving resolve the contradiction, for instance, between his writing
that Hitler had nothing to do with the “final solution” and Hitler’s writing in
the last chapter of “Mein Kampf” that:
“If at the beginning of the War and during the War, twelve or fifteen thousand
of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas,…..
the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.”
Rudolph Hoss, the camp commandant of Auschwitz, testified that Himmler summoned
him sometime in the late spring or early summer of 1941 and told him in privacy
“that the Fuhrer had given the order for a Final Solution of the Jewish
Question,” and that “we, the SS, must carry out that order.” (Hoss testimony,
TMWC 2:398, 416). If Irving wishes to pretend that Hitler really meant that
Jews should all be given a one-way bus ticket to Disneyland, he’s welcome to,
but we don’t have to believe that, do we?
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/11/97 5:04 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#577876
The Hoss testimony is flawed; anyone that was “interrogated” as he was could
not ever have had a fair trial. No court today would admit any of his testimony
as evidence.
How do you account for the existance of Fuhrer-Orders that required
restraint/delay/posponement of any action against the Jews.
There are really quite a lot of documents that are rather an impediment to the
presentation of the argument you advance. Again, I can quote the actual
documents if you wish.
What Irving says, as I understand, is that it is POSSIBLE Hitler did not know
about what was happening in the camps.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 3:55 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #578009
>> How do you account for the existance of Fuhrer-Orders that required
restraint/delay/posponement of any action against the Jews. <<
You mean like the one Irving mesrepresented in “Hitler’s War?” That’s the one,
I remind you, where Irving misrepresented notes taken by Himmler as a Hitler
order (there is nothing in the note to back that claim up), and misrepresented
the wording of the note to make it look like he was saving a trainload of
Jews–when, in fact, he was taking one person off a trainload of Jews who were
being sent to their deaths.
For those wondering what this is about: Himmler’s notes say “Arrest Dr.
Jekelius. Presumably Molotov’s son. Transport of Jews from Berlin. No
liquidation.” In other words, one man, the son of the Soviet foreign minister,
was rescued from a transport to annihilation.
But Irving, in citing the note, quotes only, “Transport of Jews from Berlin.
No liquidation.” And a note that has no apparent ties to Hitler in the first
place is suddenly transmuted into a Hitler order of salvation for a whole
transport of Jews.
Of course, the notes are from 1941 anyway, and the slaughter (which Irving now
pretends never occured) continued for four more years. Odd how Hitler forgot
about it again after saving a transport, eh?
This is history? Not by a long shot.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/12/97 5:48 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578149
Himmler, Himmler………..who was this Himmler…….seems he might have had a
hand in some wrongdoing.
Hitler, Hitler,,,,,,,,,,,,the self same Hitler that nearly did away with Dr
Goebbels for what the good Dr organised for his Jewish friends on Krystalnacht,
the same Hitler that forbade the deportation of Jews from Berlin (the first
place one might have assumed that they would have been removed from if all we
are told is true). Etc Etc.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/12/97 7:23 AM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #578174
Kevin,
I see that rather than deal with Irving’s misrepresentation of Himmler’s note
as a “Hitler order” to save Jews–when it was neither–you seek to bring up
more red herrings. This, too, is a typical denier tactic. First you rely on
an authority; when the authority is shown to be not just dubious but downright
untrustworthy, you start blowing clouds of smoke.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/12/97 10:24 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578206
Forgive me for prefering to rely on the views of an international historian
that is world renowned rather than your own.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/12/97 4:41 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #578308
Kevin,
I see that instead of addressing my specfic example, you retreat again into
your usual declaration of authority. Alas, Irving in indeed known around the
world –as a holocaust denier. The notion that he is “reknowned” as an
historian is simply false. Indeed, other historians have widely condemned his
ahistorical books and assertions.
But don’t take my word for it. Consider the words of a _real_ world-reknowned
historian or two. For example, Here is what Lucy Dawidowicz has to say:
“But the nadir of Hitlerology is reached by David Irving’s ‘Hitler’s War.’ An
amateur historian, whose reputation as a German apologist and as a writer
without regard for accuracy or truth won him a measure of noteriety.”
She also notes, “Irving claims to have new evidence and fresh interpretations
of known documents, but in fact, all his evidewnce is familiar. He develops
his arguments mostly by suppressing or ignoring the impressive body of
existing evidence and partly by applying a guileful literalness to cases of
Hitler’s aesopian language.”
Another historian, Hugh Trevor-Roper, says of Irving, “[he] seizes on a small
and dubious particle of ‘evidence,’ using it to dismiss far-more-substantial
evidence that may not support his thesis.”
And Deborah Lipstadt, author of “Denying the Holocaust” notes of Irving,
“Scholars have described Irving as a ‘Hitler partisan wearing blinkers” and
have accused him of distorting evidence and manipulating documents to serve
his own purposes.”
Sorry, Kevin, but Irving is no authority. And you still haven’t addressed
Irving’s misrepresentation of Himmler’s notes. Well?
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/13/97 4:30 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578473
Norman Stone On Irving – very favorable
Hugh Trevor-Roper has also reviewed favorably several Irving books,
particularly Hitlers War, which you seem to dislike.
He decribes the book as a “an authoratative masterpiece”
The Times say of Irving “David Irving is in the first rank of Britain’s
historical chroniclers”
Sorry, you will need to do a lot better to put this man down
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/13/97 4:30 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578473
Norman Stone On Irving – very favorable
Hugh Trevor-Roper has also reviewed favorably several Irving books,
particularly Hitlers War, which you seem to dislike.
He decribes the book as a “an authoratative masterpiece”
The Times say of Irving “David Irving is in the first rank of Britain’s
historical chroniclers”
Sorry, you will need to do a lot better to put this man down
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/14/97 2:19 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578988
Who do you think you’r kidding.
Try doing some work in an archive or two yourself
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/16/97 10:05 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #579823
Kevin,
I don’t know about anyone else here, but I find your mean-spirited retreat from
substance quite revealing.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 5:40 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #578041
Kevin,
<“..What Irving says, as I understand, is that it is POSSIBLE Hitler did not
know about what was happening in the camps”>
The following is an excerpt from Goebbel’s diary entry of March 27, 1942. In
it, he clearly shows a insider’s knowledge of the genocide of the Jews and of
Hitler’s responsibility for this “radical solution.”:
“…Beginning with Lublin, the Jews are now being removed to the East
[Treblinka, Sobibor and Belsec]. The procedure employed here, not to be
described [on paper], is pretty barbaric; there won’t be much left of the Jews.
In general one can say that only 40 percent can be put to work; 60 percent of
them will have to be liquidated. The former Gauleiter of Vienna [Odilo
Globocnik], who is carrying out this action, is doing his best to make the
procedure as inconspicuous as possible. The punishment the Jews are being
subjected to, though barbaric, is entirely deserved. The Fuhrer’s prophecy [of
September 1939] is being realized in the most dreadful way. One can’t allow
oneself to be ruled by sentimentality in these things. If we didn’t act against
them, the Jews would destroy us.
No other government, and no other regime, was able to solve this problem. Again
it is the Fuhrer who is the pioneer and the constant champion of a radical
solution now made possible by circumstances and thus inevitable. Thank God the
war offers us possibilities which would have been barred to us in peacetime.
These we must now use. …” (Goebbels, Joseph; “Die Tagebucher von Joseph
Goebbels, Samtliche Fragmente.” First volume, 1987 (nine volumes to date).
To quote Himmler from his October 4, 1943 speech to a body of
SS-Gruppenfuhrers:
“I also want to refer before you here, in complete frankness, to a really grave
matter. Among ourselves, this once, it shall be uttered quite frankly; but in
public we will never speak of it…
I am referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the annihilation of the Jewish
people. This is one of those things that are easily said. “The Jewish people is
going to be annihilated,” says every party member…Most of you must know what
it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
stuck it out and at the same time-apart from exceptions caused by human
weakness-to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This
is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to
be written…” (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 29, Doc. 1919-PS,
pp.110-173.)
At the Nuremberg trials, most of the Nazi leaders denied what the phrase, “The
Final Solution of th Jewish question” meant. Goering, in fact, contended that
he had never used that phrase. This pretense was quickly punctured. It turns
out that Goering had sent Heydrich [the S.D. Chief who arranged the infamous
Wannsee Conference] a directive on July 31, 1941 that said in part:
“I herewith commission you to carry out all preparations in regard to…a total
solution of the Jewish question in those territories of Europe which are under
German influence…
I furthermore charge you to submit to me as soon as possible a draft showing
the…measures already taken for the execution of the intended final solution
of the Jewish question.” (From the Nuremberg documents entitled “Nazi
Conspiracy and Aggression”)
Consequently, Heydrich convened a meeting of the representatives of the various
ministries and agencies in the S.S.-S.D. at Wannsee on January 20, 1942.
So let me see if I have it right now:
Goebbels knew about it, Himmler knew about it, Goering knew about it, but
Hitler knew nothing?? PLEASE…..give us a break!!
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/12/97 5:56 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578151
Specifics
!) Hitler Was NOT at Wannsee – it was a meeting of middle ranking SS officers
and civil servants
2) The content of Reichsfuhrer -SS Himmler’s Posen speach is heavily disputed –
I have heard a “Tape Recording “of it that is clearly an assembly of bits and
pieces. The “transcript” comes from a similarly flawed source.
3) The diary of Goebbels is no proof that Hitler knew anything – find the
Fuhrer-order ( all typed) the original document, the hard evidence. – there is
a prize for anyone that can.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/12/97 6:31 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #578352
Kevin,
<“Hitler was NOT at Wannsee…”>
I never said he was. I simply said that Hitler’s stooge, Goering, in ordering
Heydrich to submit a draft of the measures taken for the execution of the
“final solution of the Jewish question” caused Heydrich to convene the Wannsee
conference.
<“The content of Reichsfuhrer -SS Himmler’s Posen speech is heavily
disputed…”>
By whom…revisionists of history like Irving; Nazi apologists who make their
livelihood by attempting to conceal what by now is common knowledge; Hitler’s
crimes against humanity?
<“The diary of Goebbels is no proof that Hitler knew anything – find the Hitler
order (all typed) the original document, the hard evidence. – there is a prize
for anyone who can.”>
Why should we trust Goebbel’s statement that “again it was the Fuhrer who is
the pioneer and constant champion of a radical solution now made possible by
circumstances…” when we really should be listening instead to Irving [and
you] who apparently are so much better informed about Hitler’s intentions than
his own Propaganda Minister? No doubt, Goebbels, Goering and Himmler were
forced to conceal the destruction of the Jews from the Fuhrer since they must
have known how angry he’d be if he found out that the “Final Solution to the
Jewish question” actually entailed liquidating them. Knowing Hitler so well
they must have also known what a soft place he had in his heart for the Jews.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/13/97 4:32 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578474
Why do you think it was that Hitler ordered the action against the Jews
initiated on Krystallnacht stopped?
Goebbels was almost shot for having grossly exceeded his authority.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/13/97 7:23 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #578707
Kevin,
<“Why do you think it was that Hitler ordered the action against the Jews
initiated on Kristallnacht stopped? Goebbels was almost shot for having
grossly exceeded his authority.”>
Speer’s letter to Gitta Sereny of July 1977 in reaction to Irving’s claims that
Hitler had not known about the extermination of the Jews said that it was
“ludicrous” for anyone to claim that their extermination could have been
anyone’s idea but Hitler’s. “It shows a profound ignorance of the nature of
Hitler’s Germany, in which nothing of any magnitude could conceivably happen,
not only without his knowledge, but without his orders.” The fact that there
was no documentary evidence of such a Fuhrer command meant nothing, according
to Speer. He knew from ample personal experience that many of Hitler’s most
critical orders were issued only verbally.
Speer went on to say that “From the historical point of view, the matter has
now, thanks to your expose [Sereny and Chester’s London Sunday Times articles
of July 10, 1977] , has been dealt with. Nonetheless, unfortunately, Irving has
provided fodder for the abomniable efforts of those whose one aim is to create
a new ‘war-guilt-lie,’ as it was called after 1918, in order to yet again
deceive the German people. It appalls me.”
(from Gitta Sereny’s Introduction to her book, “Albert Speer: His Battle with
Truth.” p. 7).
On the issue of Kristallnacht and what Hitler knew about it, Lucy Dawidowicz
has this to say:
“Hitler himself never uttered a word publically on vom Rath’s assassination or
on the events of the Kristallnacht (night of glass). Yet those events could not
have occured without his approval…Hitler had dinner there [Old Town Hall in
Munich] with his old comrades and was seen in prolonged conversation with
Goebbels. Hitler usually delivered the main speech on this occasion [November
9th, the anniversary celebration of the Munich Putsch], but this evening he
left early. He had been overheard to say that “the SA should be allowed to have
a fling.” Hitler had presumably decided, at Goebbel’s suggestion, the
“spontaneous” demonstrations, manifestly not initiated or organized by the
party, were not to be discouraged. His absence from the festivities was planned
to exculpate him–and– the government from responsibility for the subsequent
events [Kristallnacht]. After Hitler left, Goebbels delivered an inflammatory
exhortation to the assemblage, calling for ‘spontaneous’ demonstrations. NSDAP
members were used to such instructions from the party’s earliest days, when it
expediently served as the anonymous organizer of violent demonstrations. Now,
the party members and SA men took Goebbels’ hints as he intended them to be
taken: Jewish blood was to flow for the death of vom Rath.”
(from Lucy Dawidowicz’ book, “The War Against the Jews”, pp. 100 & 101).
Her references for the above claims are : Kochan, Lionel “Pogrom: 10 November
1938,” p. 51 and
“Trial of Major War Criminals”, 32, Document 3063-PS, pp. 20-29.
Surely, by now, you’ve heard of the concept of “Plausible Deniabilty.” Leaders
do that sort of thing, as you must be aware. If you wish for credibility as
someone who understands political science you’ll have to drop your naivete
pose. It’s rather inappropriate even as your strategy for prevailing in this
discussion.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/14/97 2:22 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578991
Read Irving on the Goebbels diaries – what he has to say on Krystallnacht is I
think a little more illuminating.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/14/97 4:56 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #579025
Kevin,
<“Read Irving on the Goebbels diaries – what he has to say on Krystallnacht is
I think a little more illuminating.”>
No doubt Irving knows MUCH more about Hitler, what he ordered and how he
operated than either Speer, Himmler or Goebbels did.
I’m still waiting for your response about what Speer had to say in his July
1977 letter about Hitler’s being clearly behind the liquidation of the Jews. As
you may recall Speer called Irving’s claim that Hitler did not know about it
“ludicrous.” He said such a claim “showed a profound ignorance of the nature of
Hitler’s Germany, in which nothing of any magnitude could conceivably happen,
not only without his knowledge, but without his orders.” He went on to say that
he knew from ample experience that many of Hitler’s most critical orders were
issued only verbally. His statements should also cover the question about
whether Hitler ordered Kristallnacht.
I guess you’ll continue to claim that Irving knows much more about Hitler than
Speer or that Speer is a liar. If you do I hope you’ll pardon me if I (and
multitudes of others) laugh.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/15/97 3:18 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#579190
Irving has interviewed Reichsminister Speer at much length and on several
occasions.
I put it to you that his account of Speer’s testimony might be somewhat more
reliable than others.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/15/97 8:46 AM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #579212
Kevin,
My quotes from Speer’s view of Hitler’s culpability for Nazi crimes are not
from an interview but rather, direct quotes from his letter of July 1977.
In it he calls Irving’s claim that Hitler may not have known about the
liquidation of the Jews “ludicrous.” He states that many of Hitler’s most
critical orders were issued only verbally and that nothing of any magnitude
(including Kristallnacht) could have happened without Hitler’s knowledge, or
for that matter, his personal orders.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/17/97 8:12 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#579876
About as ludicrous as the defence offered by Spreer during his trial which was
accepted by the court.
Speer said many things later in life that were are variance with his earlier
writtings on the same matters.
The original manuscript for “Inside The Third Reich” is quite significantly
different from the book that was finally published under the same name.
Speer was no fool, and was very careful in what he said. I put it to you that
his original reclolections may have been more reliable.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/18/97 4:10 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #580334
RE: >>”I put it to you that his account of Speer’s testimony might be somewhat
more reliable than others.”<<<
OTOH, Speer’s own testimony might be more reliable and complete than Irving’s
account of Speer’s comments made to him.
dtf
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/14/97 1:14 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #578966
RE: >>”The Hoss testimony is flawed; anyone that was “interrogated” as he was
could not ever have had a fair trial. No court today would admit any of his
testimony as evidence.”<<
Hoess did not recant his testimony nor did he ever deny that it was essentially
accurate. The effort to dismiss his testimony has been a major effort for the
IHR and subsequent deniers, however.
RE: >>”How do you account for the existance of Fuhrer-Orders that required
restraint/delay/posponement of any action against the Jews.”<<
Tactical considerations. It does not change the overall intent and direction
of the NAZI regime, which was to exterminate the Jews.
RE: >>”There are really quite a lot of documents that are rather an impediment
to the presentation of the argument you advance. Again, I can quote the actual
documents if you wish.”<<<
Please feel free to do so. And don’t forget to provide specific sources and
references (such as the IHR and its attendant journal) so that everyone else
can go read up for themselves.
RE: >>”What Irving says, as I understand, is that it is POSSIBLE Hitler did not
know about what was happening in the camps.”<<<
Which is quite different from the assertion made by Irving’s coterie of
admirers to the effect that Hitler did NOT know. The lack of a written order
direct from Hitler is held up as proof that Hitler did not know. But the
testimony of numerous individuals to the effect that orders for the mass murder
of Europe’s Jews were NEVER to be in writing, and that even reports on the
progress of the killings should not be in writing, suggests that the lack of a
written order is neither surprising nor evidence of anything.
The fact is that while it is POSSIBLE Hitler didn’t know, that assertion flies
in the face of what we know about Hitler’s own writings, statements, and
expressed intentions…..as well as the workings of the NAZI regime.
Hitler unleashed the NAZI program and his minions carried out his will. That
was the single most important reality of the Fuhrerprinzip.
dtf
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/14/97 2:25 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578993
HOSS was convenienty put to death soon after he had “testified” so recanting
might have proved tricky.
His “testimony” was signed by the “witnesses to his signiture” but his
signiture it’s self is usually missing.
Sorry, I am most unimpressed by your argument.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/18/97 4:10 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #580333
RE: >>”HOSS was convenienty put to death soon after he had “testified” so
recanting might have proved tricky.”<<<
Long enough afterwards to have gone through another trial and written an
autobiography. He had plenty of time to recant or deny the basic content of
his testimony. He never did so. It has been subsequent Holocaust deniers and
revisionists who, needing to destroy the credibility of some of the most
damning testimony available about what was happening in the NAZI extermination
camps, have pushed the story of how Hoess’s confession was beaten out of him
and coerced.
RE >>>”His “testimony” was signed by the “witnesses to his signiture” but his
signiture it’s self is usually missing.”<<<
His testimony was delivered in court and in deposition. At no time
subsequently did Hoess recant or deny the basic content of his testimony.
RE: >>”Sorry, I am most unimpressed by your argument.”<<<
No problem. The feeling is entirely mutual. I continue to be unimpressed by
your arguments.
dtf
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/20/97 3:33 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#580934
As his testimony was in English – a language he did not understand, what you
say is not surprising.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/21/97 9:12 AM
From : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 #581365
Message text written by Kevin Davidson Hall
>As his testimony was in English – a language he did not understand, what you
say is not surprising.
KDH<
Which testimony? The Nuremberg material or the Polish material? How about
neither. My copy of his interrogation transcripts for 1 April 1946 and 2 April
1946 list the following:
“THE TESTIMONY OF RUDOLF HOESS TAKEN AT NURNBERG, GERMANY, ON 1 APRIL 1946,
1430 to 1730 by Mr. Sender Jaari and Lt. Whitney Harris. Also present: Mr.
George Sackheim, Interpreter; Pillani A. Ahuna, Court Reporter.”
Gosh, what was the interpreter for? Do you suppose they were speaking German?
Looks like they started after lunch and broke for dinner. How about the next
day?
“Testimony of RUDOLF HOESS, taken at Nurnberg, Germany, 2 April 1946, 1000 to
1230, by Mr. S. Jaari, Interrogator. Also present: Mr. Leo Katz, Interpreter,
and Charles J. Gallagher, Court Reporter. ” Looks like they started after
breakfast and broke for lunch.
Mr. Hall is also aware that the same is true for the Polish proceedings. There
were interpretors. This was also true during the trial. Why would Mr. Hall make
the ridiculous statement he made at the top of this post?
Mike Curtis
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 3/21/97 10:04 AM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #581377
Michael,
>>Mr. Hall is also aware that the same is true for the Polish proceedings.
There were interpretors. This was also true during the trial. Why would Mr.
Hall make the ridiculous statement he made at the top of this post?
Wilfull ignorance.
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/21/97 10:44 AM
From : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 #581388
MC>>Mr. Hall is also aware that the same is true for the Polish proceedings.
There were interpretors. This was also true during the trial. Why would Mr.
Hall make the ridiculous statement he made at the top of this post?
DFE> Wilfull ignorance.
I’m afraid it goes deeper than that. I’ve written what must be 50 pages on
Hoess while dismantling a WEB article by Greg Raven of The Institute For
Historical Review. Catchy name, isn’t it? Hoess issued 4 or 5 affidavits and
they all pretty much relate the same material. The information that Hoess
provides can be backed up with several other testimonies. Perry Broad, Josef
Kramer (Kommandant of Belsen), Josef Kremer, Dr. Bendel, and many other
survivors and SS provide validation for Rudolph Hoess.
Mike Curtis
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/21/97 11:56 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#581417
Hoss changed his testimony several times……..why?
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/26/97 11:22 AM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #582817
RE: >>”Hoss changed his testimony several times……..why?”<<<
Please point out specifically where Hoess changed his testimony, with reference
to both original and subsequent testimony so that we can all confirm for
ourselves that what you assert is indeed true.
Alternatively, provide some sources OTHER THAN THE IHR or Irving (though if you
can produce material from Irving AND other historians who corroborate Irving
I’d be impressed) which document and discuss this.
Don’t bother refering to some unpublished letter that supposedly was smuggled
out of someplace or other and has never been released because it’s too
“explosive.” If you do, in rebuttal I’ll be forced to break out Hitler’s
genuine diaries, which my family obtained a copy of at the end of the war
through a set of circumstances that would indeed strain the imagination. Of
course, we’ve hesitated to release or publish these documents because they are
so “explosive” in nature.
Provide the references and we can discuss your allegations. Otherwise there is
no basis for discussion other than your say-so……which quite frankly is not
even remotely adequate.
dtf
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 3/21/97 11:56 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#581416
Whilst in prison in Poland, Hoss smuggled out a letter to his wife. In it,he
appologises for his false confessions.
The letter has been in the hands of a private owner in the US for many years;
he offered it to a leading expet on handwriting analysis, who refused to touch
it on the grounds that is was political dynamite.
Interesting?
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/25/97 10:03 AM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #582556
RE: >>”As his testimony was in English – a language he did not understand, what
you say is not surprising.”<<<
The original testimony and depositions were in German if I’m not mistaken. You
have heard of translations, haven’t you?
In any event it doesn’t really matter since his testimony is corroborated and
supported by a wealth of other eyewitness accounts as well as documentary
evidence.
dtf
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/25/97 12:13 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#582575
No. the testimony and depositions were ALL in english.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/26/97 7:59 AM
From : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 #582760
Message text written by Kevin Davidson Hall
>No. the testimony and depositions were ALL in english.
KDH<
Where? At Nuremberg. No, they were not in English.
Where? In Poland? No, they were not in English. They were transcribed from the
German to English, French, and Russian. Possibly others depending upon the
various language groups at the various trials.
Mike Curtis
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/8/97 10:18 AM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #577018
Kevin,
>>I do not know of any of Irving’s claims that have been disproven.
Don Wald’s answer is pretty good. In addition, members of Hitler’s
inner circle have, in interviews, made it very clear that Hitler knew what was
going one, in specific refutation of Irvings claim.
>>Unlike others, where there is a claim, there is also the evidence, all
cataloged, and available on microfilm to anyone else that cares to use it/ see
it/ refer to it.
Evidence has to be evaluated. I, with my own eyes, have seen clear
“evidence”- text, photographs- that the Poles were engaged in anti-German
pogroms, thus justifying Hitler’s attack on that country. I hope you will not
be too surprised if I add that this material was in a Nazi propaganda booklet,
nor that I dismiss it completely.
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/11/97 5:07 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#577877
The body of evidence in question is so large, varied and authoratative that it
is not possible to “dismiss”.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/8/97 9:42 PM
From : Chris Felcyn, 74160,1166 #577221
<<As the war wore on, more and more power was ceeded to the likes of Himmler,
Bormann, Heydrich etc >>
It’s hard to believe that Heydrich acquired more power as the war wore on,
since he died in June, 1942 after an assassination attempt by the Czech
resistance.
CF
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Chris Felcyn, 74160,1166 3/11/97 5:11 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#577879
I would be rather surprised if Hitler concerned himself with the detail of what
went on in the Reichprotectorate of Bohemia whilst under Heydrich.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 10:00 PM
From : Chris Felcyn, 74160,1166 #578105
<<I would be rather surprised if Hitler concerned himself with the detail of
what went on in the Reichprotectorate of Bohemia whilst under Heydrich.>>
Huh? Maybe you missed the point. Heydrich was killed in ’42. So it’s unlikely
he was ceded “more power as the war wore on” as you stated in your previous
message, because the SOB was dead.
As for your statement above, don’t you think Adolph would have at least
wondered what happened to him? Why he wasn’t answering his phone? “Say Hermann,
anybody seen ol’ Heydrich lately? He never calls.”
CF
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/7/97 8:59 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#576777
Hello Don.
I think you have the right David Irving, but you perhaps should read him
yourself befor passing judgement.
I can speak only for myself; I find him clear, most authorative, and almost
unquestionable accurate (if the makes a statement, there is a note refering the
reader to the achiveal source, testimony, etc) unlike a good many historians.
The painful truth is that the HARD historical evidence does not support a great
many of the “truths” that are held up as unasailable.
Give “Hitlers War” a try – it is a masterpiece.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/7/97 7:53 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #576908
Kevin,
<“…The painful truth is that the HARD historical evidence does not support a
great many of the “truths” that are held up as unassailable…”>
What truths do you have in mind? Surely you don’t question that the criminal
actions of Hitler and the Nazis led directly to the deaths of millions of
innocent people including much of the Jewish population of Europe? Do you doubt
that Hitler was aware of the plan exterminate Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and
the physically amd mentally disabled? It certainily would be easy to document.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/8/97 10:26 AM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #577021
Kevin,
(First of all, it is polite to “reference” the material that you are answering
so that your correspondent can pick up the thread. If one has been gone for
several days, or is engaged in multiple discussions, it can be very difficult
to understand what you are referring to.)
>The target maps and aiming points for the raids prove that those comments are
lies.
You mean that Dresden was not a munitions and transport center, not a
government center? Sorry, I don’t buy that. As for targeting, remember that RAF
tactics were normally to aim at the city, not at the specific plant. (The
morality of *that* is a whole different topic but very much worth debating.)
The USAAF on the other hand specifically targeted the city’s rail yards.
V/R
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/11/97 5:10 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#577878
Sorry, the evidence is that :
1) the allies knew that Dresden was filled to overflowing with refugees and
displaced civillians.
2) There were not even any anti-aircraft units.
3) There were no military/industrial targets.
4) The A/P’s and target maps are clear uncontrovertable evidence of what was
intended.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 7:44 AM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #577894
Kevin,
Once again, it is considered polite to reference previous conversations
so that your correspondent knows what you are talking about.
>>Sorry, the evidence is that :
>>1) the allies knew that Dresden was filled to overflowing with refugees and
displaced civillians.
That may be. It does not affect the value of the target. And RAF
policy, anywhy, was not overly concerned with enemy civilian casualties. As I
said before that latter point is well worth discussing.
>>2) There were not even any anti-aircraft units.
I know. They had been sent to the Eastern Front, as the Germans thought
that they would be more useful there. So?
3) There were no military/industrial targets.
The quote I provided made reference to munitions plants, a rail center,
and a government center. I haven’t seen any other reference to munitions plants
(nor have I looked for any), and one can argue whether a “government center” is
a legitimate target (I think it is), but there is no question of the fact that
the railway yards existed. And those were targets all through the war.
4) The A/P’s and target maps are clear uncontrovertable evidence of what was
intended.
You keep making reference to the A/Ps and targets maps in the above way
“they give evidence”, “they expose”. Tell us, what *was* intended? What were
the A/Ps? I can’t speak for the RAF, but the USAAF A/P was the rail yards.
R,
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/11/97 12:33 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#577958
The RAF aiming points (A/P’s) were the geographical heart of the city – the
most populated areas.
The intended bombing line runs right through the centre of the city – nowhere
near the rail yards (which were almost untouched).
The single intent of these raids was to cause civillian death on a scale never
befor contemplated.
Bomber command achived their objectives in full; the totality of the
destruction beggers belief and is almost impossible to describe today to anyone
without detailed knowlage.
It is worth pointing out that these raids killed far more people than either of
those involving the release of Atomic Weapons on Japan.
Food for thought perhaps.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 3:55 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #578010
>> The single intent of these raids was to cause civillian death on a scale
never befor contemplated. <<
What a fascinating argument you’re making on behalf of a government that was
deliberately slaughtering millions of civilians in the territories it had
occupied. Patently, the Nazis not only “contemplated” killing more civilians
than died at Dresden–even if we accept Irving’s inflated numbers–but indeed
the Nazis had already murdered millions more than died in Dresden. One of the
most fascinating things about the denier mentality is that there is such a
focus on Dresden, while the whole holocaust is denied.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/11/97 5:02 PM
From : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 #578022
Kevin,
I am afraid you are letting your prejudices (or something) get in the
way of reality and good scholarship.
>>The RAF aiming points (A/P’s) were the geographical heart of the city – the
most populated areas.
The intended bombing line runs right through the centre of the city –
nowhere near the rail yards (which were almost untouched).
Going for the center of a city was standard RAF practice. RAF night
bombing wasn’t accurate enough to hit a “small” target such as a specific
factory, so they tore down the whole city. Besides, that way you also destroyed
residential housing for the workers which in theory cut productivity.
>>The single intent of these raids was to cause civillian death on a scale
never befor contemplated.
Alex Krislov has already answered this absurdity very competently.
>>Bomber command achived their objectives in full; the totality of the
destruction beggers belief and is almost impossible to describe today to anyone
without detailed knowlage.
Here you are simply getting emotional. Try me, I think I (and most
people) can imagine a wasteland, whether it is Dresden, Berlin, Warsaw, or
Manila.
Moreover, the great number of casualties were caused primarily by the
firestorm triggered by the raid. The simple fact is that there was no way to
deliberately create one- or not. It depended more on meteorologic conditions,
numbers of aircraft (controlable), and luck.
>>It is worth pointing out that these raids killed far more people than either
of those involving the release of Atomic Weapons on Japan.
Sorry, Kevin, but you need to work on the accuracy of your statements.
Ronald Specter, in “Eagle Against the Sun”, states that “close to
100,000 people died instantly” in Hiroshima, and “a further 35,000 had
perished” in Nagasaki.
Casualties in Dresden, initially as high as 135,000, were later revised
downward to 35,000 (“The Air War in Europe”). I saw in a footnote that Irving
is a proponent of the 135,000 figure. Based on other “checks”, I do not
consider him a reliable source.
R,
DFE
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don F. Eyres, 104312,661 3/12/97 5:51 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578150
Best you read his book, and see how he gets to his figures – I think you might
find the sources rather hard to rebut.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/13/97 5:58 PM
From : Andrew G Stone, 100304,1013 #578665
Hi Kevin
So? Bomber command had been targeting civilians since at least 1943 on the
basis that with enough collateral damage the central targets will collapse.
It was a seriously flawed strategy.
Andrew Mac
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/14/97 1:14 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #578963
Auschwitz 13 March 1942:
62 prisoners sent from Pawaik prison in Warsaw by the SIPO and SD receive Nos.
26706–26583.
86 prisoners sent in a group transport receive Nos. 26758–26853.
1,200 convalescents and patients whose rapid recovery to the point of being
able to work seems questionable are transferred to Birkenau and lodged in
Barracks Number 4, later Number 7, the so-called isolation ward of Section
B-1b. The sick are unloaded in the courtyard of the barrack and are beaten to
death with rods by SS men. The corpses of the murdered men are brought back to
Auschwitz and incinerated in the crematorium. [APMO, Hoess Trial, Vol 4, p 88;
Account of Former prisoner Stefan Wolny; D-Aul-5/2. Morgue Register, pp 159ff;
D-AuI-5/3, Infirmary Register of Block 28, pp 485-494; Czeslaw Ostankowicz,
“Isolation Ward, ‘Last’ Block,” HuA, No 16, (1978) pp 159ff.]
Seven prisoners, including one reeducation prisoner are transferred.
48 prisoners and eight Russian POWs die in Auschwitz-Birkenau. [APMO,
D-AuI-3/1/1, Occupancy Register, pp 125, 127.
SS Commander in Chief Himmler visits General Governor of Poland, Hans Frank, in
Krakow. To[pics touched on include the plans for the area of Zamose as a
settlement district for German colonists. The SS Commander in Chief assigns
the Higher SS and Police Commander for the General Government, SS General
Friedrich Kruger, to take steps so that the settlement operation inthe General
Government can begin.
SOURCE: “Auschwitz Chronicle: 1939-1945, From the Archives of the Auschwitz
Memorial and the German Federal Archives,” Danuta Czech, ed. Henry Holt, 1990.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/18/97 3:24 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#580126
July 1943
I bought some fish and chips, went to the public house, had a bath, read the
paper etc etc ……..yawn yawn yawn
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/20/97 2:27 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #581071
RE: >>”July 1943
I bought some fish and chips, went to the public house, had a bath, read the
paper etc etc ……..yawn yawn yawn”<<<<
July 1943 Had some toast for breakfast, went down to the railroad terminal and
spent a couple of hours sorting Jews into those who could still provide some
work and those who should go straight to the gas chambers. Selected several
sets of healthy twins for that nice Dr. Mengele’s important scientific
experiments. Inspected the new crematorium which should allow for much faster
disposition of corpses. Had lunch while watching several prisoners being
beaten to death for attempting to escape. Whiled away the afternoon taking
target practice on random prisoners in the yard. After dinner went back to the
rail terminal to conduct selection on another RSHA transport. Yawn yawn yawn.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/14/97 1:14 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #578964
Auschwitz, 13 March 1943:
1,000 Polish prisoners are transferred from Auschwitz to Sachsenhausen. [APMO,
D-AuI-1/1, Telegrams, p 74; IZ-8/Gestapo Lodz/3a/88/417; Mat.RO, vol IV, p
292.]
Nos 107559–107583 are given to 25 male prisoners, and Nos 38143–38159 to 17
female prinsoners sent in a group transport.
Nos 107585–107771 are given to 187 prisoners sent from Minsk. Two of them,
the prisoners with Nos. 107626 and 107759, die on the day of arrival. This is
the first transport to Auschwitz from Minsk. [APMO, D-AuI-5/2, Morgue
Register, p 91, Items 24, 25.]
964 Jews, 344 men and 620 women and children, arrive in an RSHA transport from
Berlin. Following the selection, 218 men, given Nos 107772—107989, and 147
women, given Nos 38160—38306, are admitted to the camp. The other 599
people, 126 men and 473 women and children, are killed in the gas chambers.
[APMO, Hoess Trial, Vol 12, p 172, Exhibit 116; DOcuments and Materials, p
117.]
Approximately 2,000 Jewish men, women, and children from Ghetto B in Krakau
arrive with an RSHA transport. FOllowing the selection, 484 men, given Nos
107990-108409, and 24 women, given Nos 38307–38330, are interned in the camp
as prisoners. The other approximately 1,492 people are killed in the gas
chambers of Crematorium II.
SOURCE: “Auschwitz Chronicle: 1939-1945, From the Archives of the Auschwitz
Memorial and the German Federal Archives,” Danuta Czech, ed. Henry Holt, 1990.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/18/97 3:25 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#580127
Bought the Auschwitz edtion of the Beano, read it, had a swim, took tea in the
garden after lunch Etc etc
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/20/97 2:27 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #581072
Auschwitz 20 March 1943
No. 109298 is given to a prisoner transferred from Dachau.
Nos. 109299-109370 are given to 72 male prisoners and Nos. 38645 – 38720 to 76
female prisoners sent in a group transport.
2,800 Jewish men, women, and children from the ghetto in Salonika have arrived
with an RSHA transport from Greece. Following the selection, 417 men, given
Nos. 109371 – 109787, and 192 women, given Nos. 38721- 38912, are admitted to
the camp as prisoners. The other approximately 2,191 people are killed in the
gas chambers.
The Polish reeducation prisoner Zygmunt Koper (No. EH-3692), born in Dabrowa
Gornicza on March 4, 1921, is captured during an attempted escape from the Buna
plants and is delivered to the bunker of Block 11. He is shot following a
selection on April 3, 1943. [APMO, D-Au1-3/lb, Bunker Register, p. 143.]
Three prisoners from the main camp are ordered to the Gypsy Family Camp in
Birkenau to fill out the personal-information cards of the Gypsies. Among the
prisoners who are in the Gypsy camp for several days are Kazimierz Sichrawa
(No. 231) and Tadeusz Joachimowski (No. 3720). The Gypsy camp is still under
construction. The Gypsies are registered according to the sequence of the
housing barracks used by them. The registration takes place outside, at tables
set up in front of the respective barracks. Apart from the sick prisoners,
allegedly from typhus fever, who are isolated in Barracks Nos. 20 and 22, all
camp inmates stand in front of theit barracks from morning until evening roll
call. Filling out the cards lasts three days altogether. [APMO, Depositions,
vol. 13, pp 57-58, Account of Former Prisoner Tadeusz Joachimowski.]
Three Polish prisoners are captured during an attempted escape from the main
camp and delivered to the bunker of Block 11. Nikodem Satagacki (No. 97598)
dies in the bunker on March 24, 1943, most probably from the injuries resulting
from torture suffered during interrogations. During a selection carried out in
the bunkers by the camp management on April 3, 1943, Stanislaw Kolodziej (No.
102939) and Jozef Dzinbek (No. 102773) are condemned to death by shooting.
[APMO, D-Au1-3/lb, Bunker Register, p. 143; D-Au1-5/2, Morgue Register, p. 101,
Item 48.]
The corpses of 58 prisoners are delivered to the morgue of the main camp; six
of the dead are from the Buna A.C., three from the Kobior A.C., two from the
Golleschau A.C., and one from the Jawischowitz A.C. [APMO, D-Aul- 5/2,
Morgue Register, pp. 96ff.]
_____________________________________________
SOURCE: “Auschwitz Chronicle: 1939-1945, From the Archives of the Auschwitz
Memorial and the German Federal Archives,” Danuta Czech, ed. Henry Holt, 1990.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/21/97 4:46 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#581331
Boring, very boring
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/26/97 11:21 AM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #582816
RE: >>”Boring, very boring”<<<
Sorry you’re bored. I’m enjoying myself immensely. So it goes. Can’t please
everyone all the time, can one? <g>
From the report of SS Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Griscksch, written in May
1943 for his immediate superior von Herff and RFSS Himmler:
“The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
question. The most advanced methods permit the execution of the Fuehrer-order
in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The
so-called “resettlement action runs the following course: The Jews arrive in
special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews
are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in
the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are
restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind
everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of
“resettlement action” has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to
destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.
“The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from the outside.
They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and
well-ventilated cellar area which is lined with benches to the left and right.
It is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that
they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. The must
therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, the are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly
under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their things
again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.
Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which
resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When three- to
four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and
containers filled with the substances are dropped down into the pillars. As
soon as the containers touch the base of the pillars, they release particlar
substances that put the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later,
the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is located. The hair of
the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are extracted (gold-filled teeth) by
specialists (Jews). it had been discovered that Jews were hiding pieces of
jewelry, gold, platinum, etc., in hollow teeth. Then the corpses are loaded
into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria
are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs of
coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish
prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
“The results of this “resettlement action” to date: 500,000 Jews. Current
capacity of the “resettlement action” ovens: 10,000 in twenty-four hours.”
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/14/97 1:14 PM
From : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 #578965
Auschwitz, 13 March 1944:
19 prisoners sent in a group transport receive Nos 175051–175069. The Degesch
Company submits an invoice for 1,050 RM for the delivery of 462 pouinds of the
gas Zyklon B to Auschwitz March 8. [Schnabel, “Power without Morality,” p 356,
Document 134.]
SOURCE: “Auschwitz Chronicle: 1939-1945, From the Archives of the Auschwitz
Memorial and the German Federal Archives,” Danuta Czech, ed. Henry Holt, 1990.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : David T. Fuhrmann, 71301,527 3/14/97 2:23 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#578992
July 1944.
I had some groceries delivered, I read the paper. watched some
TV……….yawn, yawn
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/18/97 3:23 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#580125
There are a great mny things that are open to question and inturpretation.
Do you want it light-hearted or more serious stuff?
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/18/97 5:51 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #580393
Kevin,
<“… Do you want it light-hearted or more serious stuff.”>
It would be impossible to be light-hearted when discussing a man [Hitler] whose
malignant policies led directly to the deaths of over 50 million people and the
destruction of much of Europe, including Germany.
Don
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: Nuremberg, The Last Batt
To : Andrew G Stone, 100304,1013 3/23/97 12:05 PM
From : Michael S. Curtis, 105135,436 #581992
>Didn’t say she had an admirable character, it was Pierrepoint, who had after
all hanged thousands of >people, chose her, of all of them, to comment on her
admirable courage and fortitude when facing >death.
This is as I understood it to be. I’m underwhelmed by her courage at facing
death. This is a person who beat and killed pretty defenseless people.
>As Airey Neave, (who survived the concentration camps) desribed Goering. ‘He
was a bastard, by he >was a brave bastard.
Sure, that is why he committed suicide rather than doing the “brave” thing like
Irma Grese.
>I thought it might be the sort obscure reference in which you might
interested,
Thanks. I am aware of them. Grese figures more prominently at Auschwitz than at
Belsen. Kramer figures largely at both camps. Grese will be mentioned as she
deserves in the end.
>Pierrepoints comment on Kramer was that he was largely bewildered by what was
going on (British >execution proceedures being considerablly quicker and more
humane than those of Auschwitz).
Their execution is a minor facet to the larger event — their crimes.
>There is also a reference to personal meeting with Irma Grese in ‘Rena’s
Promise’ by Rena Gelissen.
Thanks, I’m not aware of that one.
Mike Curtis
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : All 3/15/97 2:04 PM
From : Don Wald, 104067,2722 #579292
Here’s some backround on David Irving who one of our forum members, Kevin
Davidson Hall, assures us is such a reknowned, accurate historian:
“David Irving: The Propogandist’s Poster Boy
Among Holocaust deniers around the world, David Irving is unique for having
established a reputation as a popular, if controversial chronicler of World War
II prior to his admission to the ranks of the propoganda movement. His
name-recognition value and his status as a “convert” to the cause have made him
both the most popular lecturer and the leading authority within the movement
itself.
A college dropout and a partisan of the far right – his reported response to a
question about his political views in a 1959 interview was, “You can call me a
mild fascist, if you like” – Irving first gave indication of a Holocaust
‘revisionist’ agenda in his 1977 book, “Hitler’s War.” This work, a 900-page
narrative ostensibly told “through Hitler’s eyes,” concludes that the Nazi
dictator was actually a weak leader, irresolute and vacillating, who took
“ineffectual measures against his enemies inside Germany for too long.”
Irving’s corollary assertion contends that Hitler neither ordered nor even knew
about the genocidal policy known as the “Final Solution.”
The book was widely criticized by authorities in the field; nonetheless, among
the radical right, and the burgeoning Holocaust-denial movement within it, the
idea of a fallible, human, ultimately sypathetic Fuhrer disassociated with the
Holocaust quickly became a propoganda staple, and Irving’s book was hailed as
an important achievement. Irving soon warmed to his sympathizers from the
fringe, and began lecturing at IHR [the Institute of Historical Review, an arm
of the LIberty Lobby, the largest anti-Jewish propaganda organization in the
U.S.] conferences in 1983. Since then, IHR has become the leading American
source for his writings and speeches. Moreover, though Willis Carto [founder of
the Liberty Lobby] broke with IHR in 1993, Irving also appeared at a convention
for his Liberty Lobby organization in 1994. At that event, Irving shared a
platform with Louisiana former Klan leader and neo-Nazi David Duke, as well as
“Red” Beckman, an anti-Semetic tax protester connected with the militia
movement, and Eustace Mullins, an anti-Semetic conspiracy theorist active with
the radical right for more than 40 years.
In addition to American extremist contacts, Irving has developed an intimate
association with the extreme-right Deutsche Volksunion, which awarded him its
“European Freedom Prize” in May 1983. While on a speaking tour of Germany for
the organization, Irving was charged with claiming that the Auschwitz gas
chambers were “fakes” built as a tourist attraction after the war; in May 1992,
a Munich court fined him 10,000 marks for making these comments, which violate
German hate crime laws. In 1992, the “London Evening Standard” also revealed
that Irving’s German press relations were handled by Ewald Althans, a leading
neo-Nazi who subsequently was also convicted for making Holocaust- denial
remarks.
In solidarity with his new-found comrades, Irving increasingly has adopted the
more extreme tenets of Holocaust-denial propaganda, as his remarks in Germany
suggest. Responding to the discredited “Leuchter Report,” published by the
Canadian neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, which used unauthorized forensic samples from
Auschwitz to “prove” that no execution gassings took place there, Irving
pledged to delete all references to the Holocaust from a forthcoming edition of
“Hitler’s War.” Because the Holocaust “never occured,” he argued, “it did not
even warrant a footnote in the new edition of the book.”
Irving’s most recent book, “Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich” (1996),
similarly makes no mention of gas chambers at Auschwitz, referring to the camp
as a “slave-labor camp…with the highest mortality rate.” Despite its
consistent effort to downplay the Holocaust, as well as Hitler’s role in it,
the book was purchased by St. Martin’s Press, a distinguished New York
publishing house. Following protests, the firm cancelled its contract. Irving
nonetheless continues to appear before enthusiastic crowds of right-wing
supporters, for whom he has become not only a hero, but a free-speech martyr as
well.” (from: “Holocaust Denial: A Pocket Guide,” An Anti-Defamation League
Publication, 1997, pp. 23, 24, 25).
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/16/97 1:29 PM
From : John C. Thompson, 104203,2351 #579660
Hi Don,
While I am all for Free Speech, I really do resent the likes of David Irving
defending it. We all have the right to make perfect idiots of ourselves.
Irving can join the ranks of those who believe that the Nazis were boy scouts
who never murdered anyone – and I can invite all of you to join me in the
perpetuation of a belief of Fairies and the Sidhe.
However, I am uncomfortable with those who would shut Irving up for his lies
and falsehoods – just because it lets such a man have the opportunity to defend
free speech. Couldn’t we just ridicule the so and so instead? I have noticed
that the Neo Nazis (including Ernst Zundel who lives in my city) thrive when
they are taken seriously, but they cannot abide satire or laughter.
Oh yeah, and could someone get the Liberty Lobby to change its name? I am
really uncomfortable with those guys hiding behind the skirts of Dame Liberty.
While she does have to defend all of her children, their snotty noses are being
wiped on her clothing.
Regards
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : John C. Thompson, 104203,2351 3/17/97 8:16 AM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#579879
Please name one lie or falshood uttered by David Irving.
If, as I suspect, you can not, then why do you say he is guilty of such things?
Perhaps bacause you have “heard” that he is. From whom, and what was their
motive for suggesting it?
The questions go on.
I suspect Mr Irving might be a good deal more charitable toward you than you
have been to him. Reactions like yours are the main reason that he is
constantly suing for defamation.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/17/97 9:57 AM
From : John C. Thompson, 104203,2351 #579902
Kevin,
Irving has been refuted enough by others that I am sure you don’t need to hear
it again here.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : John C. Thompson, 104203,2351 3/17/97 12:24 PM
From : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,3627#579923
Ah, as I though, you don’t have the slightest idea what you are taliking about.
You will be pleased to know that the vast vast majority of Irving detractors
are as well informed as you are.
KDH
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/18/97 9:01 AM
From : John C. Thompson, 104203,2351 #580153
Funny, one could say the same thing (and worse) about Irving’s devoted readers.
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Kevin Davidson Hall, 100447,36273/18/97 12:42 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #580243
>> Please name one lie or falshood uttered by David Irving.<<
I already demonstrated one such falsehood. You never responded, save to say
that you trusted Irving. I refer those following this thread to message
578009, which has the particulars of how Irving misrepresented Himmler’s notes
to lie about a transport of Jews being sent to their deaths.
Here are the particulars, once again:
Himmler’s notes say “Arrest Dr. Jekelius. Presumably Molotov’s son. Transport
of Jews from Berlin. No liquidation.” In other words, one man, the son of the
Soviet foreign minister, was rescued from a transport to annihilation.
But Irving, in citing the note, quotes only, “Transport of Jews from Berlin.
No liquidation.” And a note that has no apparent ties to Hitler in the first
place is suddenly transmuted into a Hitler order of salvation for a whole
transport of Jews.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/18/97 5:01 PM
From : James Downs, 74333,537 #580372
And doesn’t it seem odd that in such a “enign” government it was necessary to
tell someone not to liquidatea person who had been arrested.
Regards
Jim
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : James Downs, 74333,537 3/18/97 8:01 PM
From : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 #580460
James,
Of course. Irving’s odd argument is that Hitler had somehow discovered people
were being liquidated and decided to intervene. But if that were the case, how
come the slaughter went on for four more years after this “discovery?”
Something else Kevin’s not addressing is the fact that Irving went all the way
over to full-fledged holocaust denial years ago. He now supports the insane
notion that there was no holocaust, no cremations at Auschwitz, etc. So if he
was already spouting half-baked nonsense in “Hitler’s War,” he’s now spouting
absolutely raw nonsense.
–Alex
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Alex Krislov, 76703,243 3/19/97 1:52 AM
From : James Downs, 74333,537 #580530
Nothing much is certaion in this world but I think we can hang our hats on the
fact that the sun WILL come up in the morning the Holocast DID HAPPEN and that
people who deny the second probably qwill doubt the first.
Regards
jim
Forum: Military Section: Coffee Shop
Subj: David Irving: Historian?
To : Don Wald, 104067,2722 3/17/97 8:01 AM
From : Jack Hammond*AstSysOp, 71260,306#579869
Dear Don,
The Primary Sysop has ordered that all discussion about whether the
Holocaust took place or not is to take place in Section 14.
Best Jack
