AH> MG> I am making a different point. Regardless of the
AH> MG> number the result was the same for all numbers. So why not
AH> MG> simply a J? I do not see any particular value in the
AH> MG> process itself.
AH> You forget what meticulous record keepers the Nazis were.
AH> With numbers, they were able to document each and every
AH> individual they captured. Simple letters wouldn’t do the
AH> trick.
It is really about time to stop invoking this “meticulous”
image ever time there is something unexplainable. It is rather
treating them as “subhuman” to imply it is some form of
compulsive behavior.
People do not keep records without reason. People do not
make the time consuming effort of tattooing for no reason. Given
the claim of what the intention was there is no obvious
explanation other than the “meticulous” invocation to explain why
they gave a damn about it in the first place.
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1378)
To: Alan Hess 23 Feb 95 02:27:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1379)
To: Jay Siegel 23 Feb 95 02:33:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST
JS> MG>PB> Less chance of infection.
JS> MG> Why would they care?
JS> I suspect they only tatooed identification numbers on those
JS> concentration camp inmates designated for slave labor of
JS> some type. They didn’t bother with those who were bound for
JS> the gas chambers or other forms of immediate execution.
JS> With identification numbers tatooed on their arms, they
JS> could be kept accounted for easily whether they had clothes
JS> on or not. No identification papers were required. If
JS> they died, they were accounted for. If they escaped it
JS> would have been known since that tatoo number didn’t appear
JS> at roll-call. The tatooed numbers helped the Germans
JS> maintain their maticulous records for the higher-ups. With
JS> numbers the slaves were reduced to something less than
JS> human in the minds of the people running the camps. It
JS> helped them justify the atrocious conditions of life in the
JS> slave labor camps and the disregard for the lives of the
JS> inmates since they were numbers rather than people with
JS> names.
Read the stories. The selection of work or execution was
supposedly determined upon arrival at the camp. But in any
event, we still have the question of “why did they care?” So
they are going to work, so what? The wrong person does the wrong
job? Someone is missing? A hell of a way to see who it is that
is missing. “Are you really you or another jude?” What was the
point? People really do not waste effort. What was the point?
Someone must have documented the reason as to why this was
done. Why tattoo if all you are going to do with it is burn it?
On the other hand, the only apparent use for such a thing is
long term identification of individuals and that is not
consistent with the rest of the story.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1384)
To: Peter Bradie 24 Feb 95 00:55:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ
PB> MG> Sounds like a Luddite objection. “We murder the old
PB> MG> fashioned way, by hand.”
PB> Making light of it is as bad as revisionist history, Matt,
PB> if not worse. You can’t trivialize a monstrosity.
As I have pointed out it was nothing special in any regard
since it occurred. Such things are very common.
And we know, worshipping the holocaust does absolutely
nothing to prevent repetition.
As to trivializing, the joke regarded the objection to
mechanizing it. I find it impossible to hold murder is worse
because it is mechanized. I have no idea how anyone can. How do
you? Please explain.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1386)
To: Frank Palmer 24 Feb 95 01:09:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST
FP> MG> I am making a different point. Regardless of the number
FP> MG> the result was the same for all numbers. So why not simply
FP> MG> a J? I do not see any particular value in the process
FP> MG> itself.
FP> You have obviously never been faced with the problems of
FP> inventory control;
I am very familiar with inventory control. That is why all
all boxes of cherry flavored have the same number and each box is
not numbered for inventory purposes.
and that is when the inventory doesn’t
FP> have legs and brains to hide, escape, answer role call in
FP> three places, etc.
What does it matter which hiding or escaped J or C is found?
Was the result any different?
FP> The nazis needed to know which prisoner had done what.
Why? They were all to be exterminated, right? So what was
the point of knowing what any particular one had done? I can not
imagine the slightest reason to care exactly who was being
reduced to ashes this week.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1473)
To: Pete Bucy 28 Feb 95 14:55:58
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST
PB> MG>PB> For the same reason that a social security card does not
PB> MG>PB> have just a “J” or a “C.”
PB> MG> I am making a different point. Regardless of the
PB> MG> number the result was the same for all numbers. So why not
PB> MG> simply a J? I do not see any particular value in the
PB> MG> process itself.
PB> A tattoo is the easiest way to *inventory* human
PB> machinery. These people were slave labor. With the numbers
PB> that they used, you could tell where this person belonged,
PB> who he worked for, or if it was time to terminate his
PB> model.
Why inventory anyone? The story has it that when they were
unable to work they were exterminated. What does a number have
to do with that? What does it matter who they worked for? If
they could not do the job the story has it they were
exterminated. This is not an answer.
PB> MG>PB> MG> Why a tattoo rather than a brand?
PB> MG>PB> Less chance of infection.
PB> MG> Why would they care?
PB> You don’t want sick workers, if you can avoid it.
First a brand has less chance of infection it cauterizes.
But then if the purpose is extermination why bother with when
they get sick? The story has it they were sent to the camps FOR
extermination. Why the numbers?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (1474)
To: Pete Bucy 28 Feb 95 14:56:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST
PB> MG> Revolting? There are only so many times you can look
PB> MG> at starving people and emaciated bodies and still be moved.
PB> MG> There are only so many times the same story can be repeated
PB> MG> before one is no longer impressed. It is hard to imagine
PB> MG> any adult being “revolted” any longer.
PB> I don’t believe that I shall ever reach a point where such
PB> horrors are not revolting to me.
You must be working at it. Frankly, the tapes I have seen
from Rwanda and Somalia make Auschwitz look rather trivial. I
presume it is only the active shooting that has prevented similar
tapes from Chechnya and Bosnia.
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