Worldtalk
On 07/09/94 JAMES WALDRON to ALL on Holocaust
JW> This is fair warning that ALL holocoust DISBELIEVERS are to
JW> take their fantasies and whatever other demons they are
JW> possesed with to ANY OTHER echo but DO NOT continue to
JW> debate the holocaust occurence in WORLDTLK. If you
JW> continue to do so, you will be asked to leave the echo or
JW> suffer a link cut. UNFORTUNATELY, the holocoust DID occur
JW> and we don’t need idiotic denial morons attesting to a
JW> different scenario. There’s been enough suffering
JW> already.
Sir, not to continue it but there has NEVER, EVER been a
debate as to the occurrence of the holocaust. Not once as in
NEVER EVER. I have so stipulated in dozens of messages. The
only discussion has been as to the existence of gas chambers.
You know that and you will not acknowledge that.
What do you call a person who makes a claim contrary to
fact while knowingly doing so? You do not like that name so you
have told me.
You are making yourself a classic example of those I have
identified.
You are not a moderator, you are a paristan and the only way
you can silence questioning is to prohibit disbelieve. You are
no better than a Nazi.
I do remark that you have proved my claim that few can
separate a challenge to gas chambers from the holocaust which did
occur.
What in the hell are you talking about?
NO ONE in this conference EVER denied the Holocaust occurred
EVER.
Everything I have said it true. I will also take the
liberty of cross posting this response all over the world. You
will of course ban me for telling the truth. That also I will
crosspost to the world.
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (184)
To: All 11 Jul 94 05:17:10
Subject: Holocaust
*********** Original To: JAMES WALDRON
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1494)
To: Hamilton & Co. Flowers 3 Jul 94 18:08:10
Subject: Inquistion mentalityÿÿÿÿÿ
HF> MG> Certainly there is no question of the 12 million or so who
HF> MG> died in concentration camps and there still is no question
HF> MG> of it.
HF> Although I am not Jewish nor extremely educated on this
HF> matter, it is only my opinion that this is about the only
HF> factual statement in your message.
It is also about the only statement I make.
HF> MG> Then I found a correspondent who was in investigator for
HF> MG> the War Crimes Courts after the war. His unit accounted
HF> MG> for four executions, two life imprisonments, and a total of
HF> MG> 65 years for four others. He kept his original notes. His
HF> MG> name is in the Hall of the Righteous in Israel.
HF> I believe this man probably did not lose any family as did
HF> millions of others murders Jews, Poles, and Russians.
What conceivably does this have to do with the lack of
evidence for the use of gas chambers?
HF> MG> He may be mistaken but he is certainly the last
HF> MG> person to lie
HF> We are all capapble of lying and for a variety of reasons.
HF> I can not imagine what the purpose of this particular
HF> individuals statements were.
HF> He pointed out that no one was charged with gassing at
HF> Nuremberg and thus obviously no one was convicted of
HF> gassing anyone.
HF> If what you say is correct, are we to believe that if your
HF> computer turned up missing, but no one was ever charged
HF> with stealing it, then a theft never occurred? Perhaps it
HF> would be more factual to say that you lent it out but could
HF> not remember who it was to.
Just what is it you are suggesting here?
HF> And yet the Russians acquitted him of that charge for lack
HF> of evidence.
HF> Lack of evidence does not constitute lack of a crime
What is the point of this statement? Are saying I made such
a suggestion? Concentration camps of the type they ran were in
fact a crime and several were hung for running them. People died
in them under rather undescribable conditions.
HF> MG> It turns out that Lenin ordered the construction of a gas
HF> MG> chamber at Auschwitz some years later. Then and only then
HF> MG> were people permitted to view what Lenin ordered to be
HF> MG> built.
HF> Although not as educated on this subject as you seem to be,
HF> I read a book some years ago written by Albert Speer, a top
HF> level convicted Nazi architect imprisoned in Nuremburg. He
HF> seemed very able to recall his knowledge of the gas
HF> chambers and the faces of persons going into them.
(Correct that Lenin to Stalin.)
I would have to ask for a more direct citation than that.
As to his ever visiting one he did not have that kind of
position.
HF> MG> This works out to about three people per square foot. And
HF> MG> yet the description of events holds that Nazis in gas masks
HF> MG> walked freely through the room pouring out Zyklon-B
HF> MG> pellets.
HF> When the Jews and other prisoners were transported by
HF> railcar to various camps, they shoved in with such
HF> compression that as persons became too weak to even stand
HF> they were held upright by the sheer force of other bodies
HF> around them, including the dead. Persons suffocated in
HF> this same fashion, much like what has happened at large
HF> sporting events and rock concerts today.
Try it again. The density is flat out impossible. That is
three per square foot. Can’t be done. Flat out impossible. But
that is the story. But you do bring up a good point. Why would
gas be necessary? Anoxia would do the job quite nicely.
HF> MG> holds the room was prepared by covering glass windows with
HF> MG> dirt — some glass.
HF> Your knowledge of construction is limited also. When homes
HF> are built with cellars, the ground is pushed up around the
HF> foundation for added strength and moisture protection. A
HF> small window, even glass, can sustain the pressure of dirt
HF> pushed up against it.
That is hardly the impression one gets from the story.
Certainly one can always imagine circumstances to save the story.
HF> MG> I have asked for evidence. I have presented all of the
HF> MG> above and more.
HF> I do not consider the above to be evidence of anything,
HF> only speculation.
I did not claim it was evidence. I have merely presented
the famous story did not occur as it is told.
MG> The response I have received is, “You are denying the
MG> Holocaust.” I have been asked how people died and I respond
MG> they were worked to death in conditions of no sanitation
MG> and no medication and on starvation level food.
HF> Are we to assume that the accusations of the prisoners
HF> themselves was just some form of mass hysteria.
HF> That satisfies no one.
HF> Certainly not me.
There was only one such accusation by the prisoners. That
was at a camp outside of Munich. They identified three buildings
where the gassing occurred. None of them were suitable for it
and one of them was the office of the Commandant.
The stories of gassing grew up years later.
MG> In the 20th century I can profess to believe in the deaths
MG> of tens of millions but if I question one particular means
MG> of death the claim is that I have denied all of the
MG> deaths.
HF> I do not believe that you have denied the deaths, I must
HF> say though that your premise that 10s of millions died from
HF> lack of food and over work is naive and uneducated.
You forgot disease. And we are only talking 12 million in
the camps probably less as the numbers are being revised downward
as actual studies are being made.
I would have to ask you why you think people would not die
in large numbers when living under conditions of working every
waking moment, minimum rations, and no sanitation? They did not
exactly have running water.
MG> Any slightest deviation from accepted dogma, any slightest
MG> questioning of one small aspect of dogma is considered the
MG> same as denying EVERYTHING.
HF> You are not making a “slight” deviation on one “small”
HF> aspect from the accepted dogma. Even you must be aware of
HF> that.
I am only noting there is no evidence of this particular
means of death.
HF> MG> Watch the responses to this article if you think there is
HF> MG> a difference. The responses will give you a concrete
HF> MG> example of the Inquisitional mentality as it exists
HF> MG> today.
HF> I do not have an “Inquisitional mentality” and you do not
HF> have all the facts. Your statements have been inflammatory
HF> by design and inaccurate.
I have asked for the facts I am missing. As I pointed out
no one is able to provide them. I note you have not either other
than a vague reference to Speer.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1213)
To: Sandra Peake 6 Jul 94 19:47:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality
SP> MG> Holocaust. I believed them. I had faith. Certainly there
SP> MG> was no question of the 12 million or so who died in
SP> MG> concentration camps and there still is no question of it.
SP> Why, if so many bodies are missing, is there no question?
SP> 12 million people gone is about 40% of Canada’s current
SP> population. Who were these 12 million?
The bodies were burned of course. What do you think the
crematoria were for?
SP> MG> Then I found a correspondent who was in investigator
SP> MG> for the War Crimes Courts after the war. His unit accounted
SP> MG> for four executions, two life imprisonments, and a total of
SP> MG> 65 years for four others. He kept his original notes. His
SP> MG> name is in the Hall of the Righteous in Israel.
SP> What kind of unit are you referring to – a Kommando, a
SP> military death squad, what?
His unit were investigators of war crimes. His unit
investigated the first rumor of gas chambers.
SP> MG> He pointed out that no one was charged with gassing at
SP> MG> Nuremberg and thus obviously no one was convicted of gassing
SP> MG> anyone.
SP> Which Nuremburg Trial? THe first one? That was to settle
SP> blame for the major categories of offenders – the
SP> warmongers.
Who are you referring to? Conducting a war was not a crime.
THe prosecution had to settle for lesser
SP> figures, for, with the exception of Goering and Hess, the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SP> others were not really major players, not even Admiral
SP> Doenitz.
Hoess was not charged at Nuremberg.
SP> countries had their own trials. To say there were no
SP> gassings because the Allied trial of the leaders did not
SP> convict anyone is to disregard totally the numerous
SP> trials of lesser Nazis, who were convicted and hung, or
SP> shot.
Would you care to list some of those people and the charges?
SP> He pointed out the Rudolph Hoess, the notorious
SP> MG> Commandant of Auschwitz was never arrested but, after he
SP> MG> surrendered, was kept under house surveillance. He was
SP> MG> never charged at Nuremberg.
SP> Not at the Allied War Crimes trial held in 1945-46 with
SP> the 4 Allied prosecutors. They were not after small
SP> potatoes like him – they’d have rejoiced to get their
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SP> hands on the hitherto unknown called Eichmann, who
SP> eluded capture for 15 years. Hoess was under house
SP> arrest, which is a valid arrest.
Consider the two parts I underlined. Or did you really mean
Hess vice Hoess?
SP> MG> After his testimony against his
SP> superiors at Nuremberg he MG>was arrested and turned over to the
SP> Russians at the request of MG>General Rudenko and charged with gassing
SP> Russian citizens. After MG>a two day trial he was acquitted of those
SP> charges for failure of MG>the prosecution to produce evidence there
SP> was any gassing. He MG>was later tried on charges of crimes against
SP> the Russian people MG>and hung. MG> This was the key to the issue.
SP> I believe he was tried on crimes against the POLISH
SP> people and that’s why he was hung at Auschwitz.
Actually against the Russian people but the trial was held
in Poland. Seems some Russians had been shipped there.
SP> Here was a man purported to MG>have written a book
SP> between the time of his surrender in 1946 and MG>his
SP> execution in 1947. That book, Commandant of Auschwitz,
SP> MG>amounts to a full confession of gassing. And yet the
SP> Russians MG>acquitted him of that charge for lack of
SP> evidence. MG> Not even asking when he had time to
SP> write this book why MG>would not such a confession lead
SP> to a conviction on exactly those MG>charges?
SP>
SP> That would seem reasonable – if it were published before
SP> the trial’s end. However, doomed men have written
SP> confessional treatises before now, and these stories
SP> have turned up only after their deaths. I have not read
SP> this book; so cannot comment on its contents.
What does publication have to do with it? It was a
manuscript before it was a book. Where could he have hidden it?
It would have been in the hands of the Russians no farther away
than his jail cell.
SP> It is obvious it did not exist at the time and what
SP> has MG>been published is a forgery.
SP> That’s a leap of faith. Hidden works can certainly exist
SP> w/o being published for some time. Happens frequently.
SP> Family and friends smuggle out the text, and publish it
SP> posthumusly.
I read the book way to long ago to remember its contents
clearly but I remember no such story. In fact I do not remember
how its publication 12 years after the fact was explained.
SP> THere were cremtoria at all the camps, hundreds of them,
SP> all spread out under the umbrella of 19 major camps.
SP> (Auschwitz consisted of 4 major camps, all separate,
SP> several miles apart.) However, not all of them had gas
SP> chambers by any means, and most of those that did used
SP> them for delousing. None of the four death camps was
SP> located on German soil; so I’d doubt those reporters’
SP> testimony also.
Of course there were crematoria. What point are you trying
to make with that?
SP> But when Birkenau was added to Auschwitz, it had one
SP> function. To kill and dispose of as many prisoners as
SP> possible, and as many Jews as possible. The railroad
SP> siding came right to the gas chambers. At that point,
SP> doctors separated healthy male prisoners (occasionally
SP> some females for work at Ravensbruck , another sub-camp
SP> at Auschwitz) and marched them off to work details. The
SP> rest were taken to the “showers, to be deloused.” THese
SP> huge buildings were indeed, capable of handling 700
SP> people at once. THe Zyklon-B was delivered through
SP> “shower heads” installed in the ceiling, along with dummy
SP> shower heads. And there were 4 of these giant chambers!
It is an interesting story but there is on support for it.
First Zyklon-B is liquid hydrogen cyanide soaked into
kaolinacious earth and then compressed into pellets described as
blue and pea sized. That does not come out of shower heads.
The 700 at once part comes from the story of the first
experimental use of Zyklon-B where they were supposed to have
been packed in 30 to the square meter — impossible on the face
of it.
SP> However, the Russians refused access to
SP> MG> Auschwitz-Birkenau. And it is noted their own court had
SP> MG> thrown out these reports in the Hoess trial. Thus the
SP> MG> evidence from Auschwitz is not credible. MG>
SP> I’d like to see the charges , the transcripts, and the
SP> jurists’ reasoning. THere are (were) enough survivors of
SP> Auschwitz, and a few from Birkenau, that eyewitness
SP> testimony may not be so lightly tossed aside.
So would I but then I do not read Russian. As to eye
witnesses to gassing they didn’t start showing up until years
later. Even Wiesel’s first book does not mention gas chambers.
SP> In view of the fact that the Nazis blew up the gas
SP> chambers and crematoria at Birkenau in the late fall of
SP> 1944, their current existence would be entirely
SP> questionable.
The crematoria were left standing and were in use until
liberation. As for blowing up gas chambers, what good would that
do? Blowing up a building doesn’t do more than make a mess of
it. What it was would be a simple forensic matter to
reconstruct. In fact given all the real life experts in blown up
buildings around during the war there should have been dozens of
people capable of doing so in the group that liberated the camp.
ANd so is the “evidence” of those who
SP> purported to point out the chambers as existing after
SP> the war. Now, if they pointed out where the gas chambers
SP> had been…that is something entirely different. Nor
SP> could the equipments’ existence be verified by
SP> examination of the site, as they were destroyed and
SP> dismantled months before the war’s end.
There is no evidence of any order to construct or dismantle
any gas chambers yet there is plenty of evidence of the
construction and shipping and assembly of the crematoria.
=====
It appears to me you hold crematoria are evidence of gas
chambers. They are evidence of nothing but a lot of bodies do
dispose of. And need indicate no more than deaths from disease
and starvation. It is not as though they had running water or
toilets.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1217)
To: Sandra Peake 6 Jul 94 20:30:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality
SP> MG>
SP> This is the famous room, the first gas chamber described in
SP> MG>Kommandant of Auschwitz. In the book it was a spontaneous
SP> MG>experiment carried out hardly a month after the infamous Wannasee
SP> MG>Conference is supposed to have ordered the method used. At this
SP> MG>point in my reconsideration of events I was reviewing some
SP> MG>material from people who were already skeptics of gassing. MG> It
SP> turns out this was a rather small room and yet the MG>description is of
SP> at least 700 people being stuffed into it.
SP> As there were numerous camps at which gassings occurred,
SP> and as there were both preliminary trials before the bugs
SP> got worked out, and then the actual working apparatus,
SP> some witnesses’ testimony has gotten confused with other
SP> testimony, and the incompatibilities seized on to “prove”
SP> no gas chambers therefore existed. It wasn’t until I
SP> divided experimental early models from the later ones,
SP> and looked at the camps separately, that the differences
SP> got resolved in my mind. Not every method was practiced
SP> at every camp.
The above story is flatly impossible yet it is the classic
first use. It is also given as an invention at Auschwitz yet the
Wannasee conference was supposed to have have been held a couple
months earlier.
SP> Therefore, to say that such-and-such a procedure was
SP> followed at Auchwitz-Birkenau has no relevance on what
SP> took place at Treblinka or Dachau. Small wonder attempts
SP> to extrapolate a single working procedure from the
SP> different areas results in inconsistencies, upon which
SP> deniers of the Holocaust gleefully fasten.
Then there was no Wannasee Conference to have organized
everything and standardized the procedures. That knocks another
big hole into the story.
SP> policy. Because so many camps had crematoria for disposal
SP> of dangerous waste, including diseased bodies, does not
SP> mean that healthy men, women and children weren’t killed
SP> and cremated at the death camps.
Save you have still presented of evidence of gas chambers.
SP> I have never seen this mentioned as a method.
It is in the Holocaust FAQ on the internet.
THere were covered
SP> slots in some doors, much like dispensing vents on washing machines,
SP> through which the pellets could be dropped, in earlier models. THe
SP> Auschwitz later ones had the gas dispensed through the ceiling.
It was still pellets unless you can name a different gas
that was used.
SP> It also MG>holds the room was prepared by
SP> covering glass windows with dirt MG>– some glass. MG> On cursory
SP> inspection the story is incredible. Yet this is MG>the story. And if
SP> one asks for better evidence?
SP> I have read about viewing ports. Why is this incredible?
SP> Surely the murderers would want to be able to tell when
SP> all were dead and to shut off the gas; so as to expedite
SP> disposal. Seems reasonable to me.
This is still the story of the first one. It was supposed
to be Zyklon-B thrown on the floor by men in gas masks causally
walking through such a packed room.
SP> This is where MG>the heresy comes in. MG> I have asked for
SP> evidence. I have presented all of the MG>above and more.
SP> The response I have received is, “You are MG>denying the
SP> Holocaust.” MG> I have been asked how people died and I
SP> respond they were MG>worked to death in conditions of no
SP> sanitation and no medication MG>and on starvation level
SP> food. That satisfies no one.
SP> But many thousands did. Just in Belsen alone, 30,000
SP> people died of severe malnutrition and typhus (which was
SP> exacerbated by starvation) the week they were liberated.
SP> And there were thousands upon thousands of corpses lying
SP> about the camp when the Allies got to it. Yet the camp
SP> bakery just down the road had tons of supplies, and the
SP> capacity to turn out 60,000 loaves of bread daily. THose
SP> supplies, and potential bread, were withheld deliberately
SP> from the starving by the Nazis and guards in charge of
SP> the camp.
What does this have to do with gas chambers?
SP> I have MG> been plication that a quick death by gassing is worse
SP> I have MG> MG>than a from disease and starvation.
SP> Give me the choice; I know which I’d choose. (As if
SP> prisoners had any choice!)
Suggest that a murder be executed by starvation and you will
be told which is worse.
SP> MG> I have have dozens of
SP> people literally refuse to respond to MG>my requests
SP> because they know the truth. When I ask them why MG>they
SP> will not post the evidence of that truth they refuse to
SP> MG>respond.
SP> Some people never want to hear another word about
SP> something that destroyed their souls.
Nonsense. These are the same people who will say Israel can
do no wrong because of the Holocaust. Most were not even born
until after the war.
Others are tired of
SP> fighting the same battles over and over again. Many have
SP> died. But I asked my Polish friend, who spent 5 1/2 years
SP> in POW camps. He was never in a death camp. But he knows
SP> the truth. And now, second-hand, so do I.
If he was never at such a camp how did he know there were
gas chambers?
SP> MG> Have I denied the
SP> Holocaust in anything of the above? Yet MG>almost every response I have
SP> received has been a claim that I MG>have denied there was any massive
SP> death of Jews regardless of the MG>stipulation I have made up front.
SP> Only about half of the eleven million who died were Jews.
SP> Poland considered hers Polish citizens, and did not
SP> further distinguish them on racial or religious
SP> designation. But over 3 million of those Poles were Jews.
SP> That’s pretty massive in anybody’s books.
So what is your point?
SP> behind. In the 20th century I can profess to MG>believe in
SP> the deaths of tens of millions but if I question one
SP> MG>particular means of death the claim is that I have
SP> denied all of MG>the deaths.
SP> You have denied the gas chambers,
Since when is pointing out the stories are not possible
denying anything? Since when is asking for credible evidence
denying anything?
and also death by
SP> starvation , beatings and disease.
Then you are illiterate or have not read a word I have said
that you did not what to read.
(Unsatisfactory was
SP> how you categorized these answers.) So that leaves
SP> outright murder by injection and hanging, which are
SP> neither efficient nor high up on the list as the major
SP> causes of death, as well as by shooting, which was high
SP> on the list.
You said there were 30,000 who died from typhus in the week
they were liberated. Why would you now claim disease is
inefficient or that disease could not account for it.
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