Giwer Matt, 4-1996 – p3

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57892 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:13:23 GMT
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On 17 Aug 1996 01:17:52 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> You are a fraud.

> This comes from a person who claims that cynanide gas should be used
>in morgues to kill flies.

Are you saying that flies and maggots are immune?

Have you found something saying that it only works on lice?

What would you suggest? SS guards with fly swatters?

Are you aware of any other insecticide at the time?

Learn some history. That was the age of flypaper. You do know that
that is, do you not?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57927 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:12:50 GMT
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On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:20:08 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected](Thomas Ander) writes:
>>
>>
>> > Crematorias leave no stench. Whatever the inmates smelled, it was not
>> > the burning of flesh; and there is much proof to that effect.
>> > Tom
>>
>> I know lots of people who have a different opinion. They live next to
>> a crematorium.
>>

>Let’s not forget that we’re also talking about crematoria designed for
>mass burning, not politeness to the surrounding country-side.

But they were NOT designed in that manner. They were all the same as
the standard Krema that would be built in the middle of any city.

The only issue is the quantity per time increment.

Now if they had built incinerators as I have suggested would be the
obvious thing to do there would have been a smell problem. But we do
not have that.

We have real crematoria.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57940 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:45 GMT
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:29:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Therefore they transported people from France and Greece
># and Italy to gas them in Poland.

>A relatively small number; most victims were Poles,
>or Soviet Jews murdered close to where they lived.

75,000 from france is relatively small and for no purpose whatsover.

># Stupid shit.

>You don’t have to use such words just because this is
>what you learned at home.

You re the math wizard who has never posted a calculation.

># Today military ball 9mm rounds cost 11 cents each. For
># 6 million dead from ALL causes that is $660,000 dollars.

>Bullets are necessary items during the war. Why waste
>them if you can kill the people with Zyklon?

Why waste the cost of transportation when those same trains can be
used to transport war materiel to the front? Wasting the trains on
people just to kill them in Poland was contrary to the war effort,
despite the cost.

And then, as any room will do for killing people, why not use a room
in France? Remember the “farmstead” that was first used at Auschwitz
for gassing? Are you saying that France, Italy and Greece had no
suitable “farmsteads”?

If you insist upon gas instead of bullets, there is still not need to
ship anyone any place. Any old farmstead will do. Or do you disagree
with the Auschwitz FAQ that Nizkor carries? If so, what is your
disagreement with it in this regard?

The rock is shipping them to gas them to save bullets.

The hard place is not gassing them in place.

You are invited to invent a way out of the middle.

># Not by any rational calculation but let me see your
># calculations for the amount needed to kill in 10-15 minutes.

>For the largest gas chambers? 4 Kg would definitely
>be enough. What is your figure?

I am interested in seeing your calculations. But we both know you
have done none. So why do you make it up?

># The gas chambers were discovered in the last five years.

>This is such an insane and stupid comment that there’s
>no use reading this anymore. They were found immediately
>after the war. You’re simply out of your mind.

Quite nonsensical. Not one document known in the 1940s refers to
them. Nothing Hoess or Gerstein says mentions them. Nothing at the
IMT mentions them.

>You’ve been a bad boy, and the .sig returns.

And I respond with a secret identity.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:18 PDT 1996
Article: 57941 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:20:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:07:41 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># Two million of six million is one third.
>>#
>># The reference to “two million children” is not supported
>># by any of the hundreds of photographs of Auschwitz. Nor is
>># it supported by the Holocaust’s own testimonies.
>>
>>What do you mean by “nor is it supported by the Holocaust’s
>>own testimonies”? Do you mean that witnesses don’t mention
>>that many children were murdered? But they do say this.
>>
>>One indication to the percentage of children among the
>>victims is the report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about
>>the numbers of Jews murdered by his unit (Einsatzkommando 3),
>>in Lithuania, during July-November 1941. The report gives
>>a very accurate breakdown, by dates, and also classifies
>>the victims into Jewish men, women, and children.
>>
>>Some typical entries:
>>
>>[Source: ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>> Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>>
>>The Commander of
>>the security police and
>>the SD
>>Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941
>>
>>————————–
>>|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
>>————————– 4th copy
>>
>> Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
>> up to 1 December 1941
>>
>>[…]
>>
>>
>>12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
>> Jewish children 3,334
>>17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
>> Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
>>20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
>> Jewish children 403
>>22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
>> Jewish children 1,159
>>24.9.41 Riess 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
>> Jewish children 1,767
>>25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
>> Jewish children 575
>>27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
>> Jewish children 3,446
>>30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
>> Jewish children 1,446
>>4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
>> Jewish children 1,983
>>6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
>> Jewish children 962
>>9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
>> Jewish children 3,726
>>16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
>> Jewish children 1,146
>>21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
>> Jewish children 2,367
>>
>>[…]
>>
>>
>>
>>Do the calculation. I can post the complete report.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
>>

> Here’s Keren with one of his eyewitness testimony documents.
>Notice I say “one”. Do I know if it’s a forgery? Do I know if the
>Germans were reporting on the citizens rage against the Jews? Keren
>offers one, uncertainty. Photographs are far more certain. Hundreds of
>photographs of camps interees that don’t support the claim that 1/3 of
>the Holocaust victims could be children.

> All the photographs of the arrival and “selection” of people to
>Auschwitz, all those in the camp should show this ratio. Yet they
>don’t. You better come up with something more than one little
>uncertain document.

What is also interesting is the missing demographics showing the 0-17
years of age fraction of the population. 1/3 is something you would
expect to find in third world countries. 1/4 or less is what you
expect to find in industrialized countries.

But then, Jews are always special and anything found about the
Holocaust is always true and over rides any comparison to normal
reality.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 57942 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:47:43 GMT
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:23:11 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele) foams at the mouth:
>>

>[snip]

>> # Now those exterminations, in contrast to the “holocaust,
>> # made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
>> # obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
>> # and/or starvation.
>>
>> The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>> of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
>>
>> All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>> with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>> saved ammunition.

>Indeed. On average 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. A rifle
>cartridge cost more than that.

1) How much more did a 9 mm cartridge cost? In the ’70s I could get
surplus 9 mm cartridges for eight cents without looking around.

2) How much total ZB was required? And while you are at it post
your complete calculation of the cost.

3) You will not do either nor will the math PhD who has never posted
one article using arithmetic.

>[snip]

>> # Zyklon-B as opposed to several other gasses available at the
>> # time was ridiculously inefficient.
>>
>> All you stupid “revisionists” can do is repeat this like
>> a lame-brained parrot. The gas was very cheap, very easy
>> to handle, and they had a great deal of experience using it.
>>
>> The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>> prisons. A natural choice.

>Indeed. It seems there is some discord in the denier camp on this issue.
>According to Mr. Kreiberg (a denier) in article
>:

>”…HCN is much more poisonous than car exhaust. In the US
>execution gas chambers the convicted have only to inhale the HCN once or
>twice, and he is gone.”

>Well, either HCN is or it is not an efficient homicidal agent. It cannot
>be _both_ efficient and inefficient at the same time! Perhaps the deniers
>should put their little heads together and straighten this out amonst
>themsleves before exposing themselves to further ridicule?

HCN in ZB form is what is at issue here. Please address it in your
calculations.

>> # I guess it takes a holohugger to make insecticide into
>> # “death gas” and crematoria into “ovens.”
>>
>> I guess it takes a stupid “revisionist” to make unfounded
>> claims about technical matters without proving his point.

>Indeed. It is probably worth pointing out that nerve gaents such as Tabun,
>Sarin, and Soman were developed from “mere” insecticides by the Nazis. Not
>to mention that such highly lethal nerve agents, such as VX, can with a
>modicum of effort be developed through “dual use” programs in the same
>factories were common insecticides are produced because the manufacturing
>process is similar between the two. (Remember the U.S. concern that Libya
>was clandestinely developing nerve agents?)

How about free CO2?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:20 PDT 1996
Article: 57945 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:15:13 GMT
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:46 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> writes:
># Matt Giwer writes:

>## A revionist will never call you a name for questioning
>## what they post.

># Any fatbroads around to answer?

>And “jewboys”?

Rather I have not read that term here. But of interest to the Jews
the males are meaningless. It is only the “jewgirls” that matter.

The men are drones in a female dominated society.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 57950 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some more questions Giwer doesn’t dare to answer.
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:48:42 GMT
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On Wed, 14 Aug 96 21:59:13 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions. His
>>lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as
>>stupid as is McVay.

>Hey, I have some more questions for you:

>1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?

I have never said that.

I have said that in the context of the times every European country
qualified as racist. In fact as recently at 1975 I heard a briefing
>from a British officer where he told the joke about the three major
“races”. (The Irish race prays upon their knees and their neighbors.
The British race regard themselves as self made men which relieves the
allmighty of a terrrible responsibility. (I forget the one about the
Scots.))

The Brits and the French and the Germans and all the rest commonly
talked about he superiority of their respective races and the
inferiority of the other races. You are invited to learn what was
said in those days.

Back then the Brits had Piltdown Man “proving” that humans first
evolved in England. The French had Cro-Magnon proving that “artistic”
man evolved in France. The Germans had Neanderthal and the NSDAP
would rather not be reminded.

Hitler himself was rather extreme in this matter but then he was only
a Corporal without any formal higher education in the field. His
opinions on the human evolution science of the time were not
particularly worse than that of any other politician. Not any better
than they are today for that matter but the subject does not come up
often these days.

So what in fact I said was, that they did not particularly stand out
as “racist” in “racist” Europe at the time.

>2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
>socialism?

As I have pointed out many times, you have it backwards. Natioal
Socialism was a part of the NSDAP political stance, platform in
today’s terms, and not the other way around. Pro or anti abortion or
pro or anti welfare does not define either the Republicans or the
Democrats. They are simply part of the positions of the parties along
with many other things.

>3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?

What do historians have to do with anything that is still on-going.
When a subject is dead for 50 years historians no longer have an axe
to grind.

Consider Alan Greenspan who knows the difference. Hyeck for another.
Read some free market economists and learn something for a change.

>4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
>SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
>mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
>Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?

If you will post it, I will have a look at it. As for my
interpretation of the document, it is hardly in need of
interpretation.

1) It speaks for itself needing only to point out that it does not
really say what some people want to believe it says.

2) It is hardly necessary that there is little evidence that
anything but workcamps was implemented, that most of it never
happened. That means, show me anything other such as sterilization of
fractional and meritorious Jews who were sterilized.

>> Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond
>>to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his
>>shell.

>I do not have a killfile on anybody, and I have been waiting for your answers a fairly long
>time. Therefore, as long as the others are searching for your non-existing answers you could
>spend you time with answering my questions. But you, obviously to cowardish to confront me
> with arguments, will probably only take refuge in childish name-calling. Not that I care much.
> It would be under my dignity to follow legal procedures to answer your calling my parents
> “murders” [sic!]

Now you have some answers.

Just what was your point in misrepresenting what I said to phrase the
questions the way you did?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:23 PDT 1996
Article: 57952 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:22:30 GMT
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:34:28 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:27 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>
>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>It really doesn’t matter what you write about the manuals. You must
>>>>>realize that the manuals are written for using Zyklon as a fumigant
>>>>>and not as a murder weapon aimed at humans. Geeze.
>>>>
>>>>I just looked at the manual with my revolver. It, too, does
>>>>not suggest it can be used as a murder weapon.
>>
>>>Ah, but it can. All it takes is a will and a mind to do it. The
>>>Germans had a will and to mind to use what they obviously used. It
>>>just goes to show that not many people are concerned with using things
>>>properly.
>>
>>>Surely, you can do better than that!
>>
>> Try it this way. His manual, very like the gassing witnesses, says
>>that anything a bullet strikes will disappear.
>>

>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>have his manual? Oh, you’re lying again. I see.

It is called an analogy, child. Gas someone and every bit of physical
evidence disappears.

>> As for the will to so something, the descriptions of what was supposed
>>to have happened does not match any but the grossest descriptions.
>>

>Of course they do.

Not that anyone here has been able to demonstrate. The best you folks
can do is what you just did. Claim that they do or that it has been
demonstrated but never being able to produce the evidence of if.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:24 PDT 1996
Article: 57958 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:19:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Aug 1996 21:45:29 GMT, [email protected]@ (Big Kahuna) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Show the physical evidence that it was used. Be the first. Start a
>>tradition.
>>

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:41:35 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>
>>>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>It really doesn’t matter what you write about the manuals. You must
>>>>>realize that the manuals are written for using Zyklon as a fumigant
>>>>>and not as a murder weapon aimed at humans. Geeze.
>>>>
>>>>I just looked at the manual with my revolver. It, too, does
>>>>not suggest it can be used as a murder weapon.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ah, but it can. All it takes is a will and a mind to do it. The
>>>Germans had a will and to mind to use what they obviously used. It
>>>just goes to show that not many people are concerned with using things
>>>properly.
>>
>>That was my point. Just because the manual does not describe
>>a use, that does not mean that such a use is either unusual or
>>unanticipated.
>>

>Show me where the the makers of Zyklon-B thought their product would
>be used to kill large numbers of human beings.

>You already admitted to the existence of that evidence.

>Please try to be consistent while you’re being wrong.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have said no such
thing.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:25 PDT 1996
Article: 57961 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain’t
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 02:03:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:03:16 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> Hot gases is the topic, and the need for some kind of cooling system to the
>> flues.

>And _why_ would a “cooling system” be required for the _flues_? They were
>underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
>earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw.

Rather it would be a very good insulator. As little as three to six
feet down, depending upon soil type, the temperature is the year round
average for the climate. A few feet further down, the temperature is
related to core heating.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:26 PDT 1996
Article: 57969 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:06:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:17:37 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Crematoria must mean that people were gassed. It is the
># unstated assumption of almost all of the claims that the
># only reason for having crematoria in the first place was
># because there was mass gassing.

>No. The amounts of cremation furnaces do obviously
>prove that mass murder was planned and executed.

Only if you assume that impossible cremation rates in fact happened.

And in fact crematoria vice incinertators are completely against the
idea that it was planned.

But you know that.

All you can do is is your Baysian “assume it did happen” approach to
life. Such an ignoramus.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:26 PDT 1996
Article: 57977 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:40:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 220
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:59:17 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) writes:

># oh bullshit. When Reinhard Heydrich was killed, the
># Nazis had no compunction about wiping out an entire
># Czechloslovakian village. When they wanted to wipe
># a group a people out they simply did it. Hitler’s
># purge during the night of the long knives was done
># in the open.

>You’re talking about different orders of magnitude here.

># Now those exterminations, in contrast to the “holocaust,
># made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
># obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
># and/or starvation.

>The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.

It is amazing they were not bright enough to starve, shoot or overwork
the other half.

>All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>saved ammunition.

Which was cheaper than the transportation system and the camps.

They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from France just
to gas them in Poland. Or would not the French “stand for it”?

># With Stalin and Pol Pot, as opposed to the Holohoax,
># you had:
>#
># No trains.

>No trains? How were all these people deported to Siberia
>and to the camps in Cambodia? They walked all the way
>to Siberia?

The starvation was done on site in the Ukraine.

># No tattoos.

>Only those spared for work were tattooed.

One more assertion that only the undocumented were gassed without
explaining how the undocumented were counted.

># No insecticide.

>Stop with this bloody rubbish already. It was a cheap
>way with which to kill many people. So it was used.

So are bullets. So is CO2 from putting them in a room and sealing it.
After all, there was no hurry as the cremation was the bottleneck
according to you folks.

># No “death-camps.”

>You heard it here, folks. No death camps in Stalin’s
>USSR and Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

Not in the Ukraine, not run by Pol Pot.

># No stories of jewish women cleaning stairs with
># their tongues.

>No sadism? Have you read about recent war crimes in Bosnia?

It appears you believe in the stair cleaning story.

># If they had wanted to gas the jews they would have
># used the most efficient gas available — not Zyklon B!

>Ok, let’s here it. What gas do you think they should
>have used?

CO2, free from breathing. If you want it faster, dump some burning
coke down your “induction columns.” It is not as though it is all
that hard to do it cheaper.

># But you want people to believe the nazis created some
># idiotic, inefficient scheme for killing jews?

>No. I think they used a rather efficient scheme.

You mean like the mass electrocutions? or the steaming?

># Zyklon-B as opposed to several other gasses available at the
># time was ridiculously inefficient.

>All you stupid “revisionists” can do is repeat this like
>a lame-brained parrot. The gas was very cheap, very easy
>to handle, and they had a great deal of experience using it.

In the Nizkor approved story of the first usage, a contractor did all
the fumigation until Fritsch had a bright idea, i.e. no experience.
We can go into the other stories later.

>The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>prisons. A natural choice.

But something as foolish as ZB is not used and would be quite a
riduculous way to go about it.

But you know that.

># I guess it takes a holohugger to make insecticide into
># “death gas” and crematoria into “ovens.”

>I guess it takes a stupid “revisionist” to make unfounded
>claims about technical matters without proving his point.

Your demonstrated technical knowledge here is on a par with your
demonstrated math knowledge, zero.

># You love comparing the Holocaust to Dresden, but the
># analogy is inapposite. For example, with Dresden we have
># the actual documents authorizing the bombing. We don’t have
># any with the Holocaust (except a spurious document or two)
># to prove that the Reich’s intent was to exterminate the Jews
># systematically.

>There are many more such documents.

Two, neither clear, amidst all the rest with no such indication.

># You don’t tatoo someone you are going to exterminate —
># no need to!

>Which is why only those spared as “fit for work” were
>tattooed, not those gassed upon arrival.

Admitting again there were no records of those “gassed” but not
exlpaining how the “gassed” were determined to be different from the
31 million who vanished without a trace.

># That sort of thoughtcontrol may be OK in Israel, but we
># Whites want the truth.

>Bwawawa. “We Whites”.

># Those inmate facilities weren’t gas chambers. The design of
># the buildings were inadequate for your silly gas chambers

>Stop repeating this like some dumb little Nazi. PROVE it.

You claim HCN is used in US gas chambers as though it was the same as
ZB. Therefore there is a need to demonstrate that

1) these morgues were useful for gassing

and

2) that they overcome the differences between US gas chambers and ZB
in application.

And that if just the beginning. You folks started “discovering” the
morgues were really gas chambers about four years ago. You folks
claim they have obvious features for mass extermination chambers. Yet
since these are the only ones ever built there is a lot more needed to
substantiate the claim of obvious.

># But instead you want me to believe that “Raid” was used,
># and that it was all a big plot to wipe out the Jews using
># insecticide, using buildings that couldn’t have functioned
># as gas chambers.

>Prove that they couldn’t function as gas chambers.

You home can function as a gas chamber. Prove it is not.

You folks bear the burden of making the claim.

You folks have never met that burden.

># Again, the difference between Dresden testimony and Holocaust
># testimony is that the latter is patently implausible.

>Yes, sure. “Puddles of melted human flesh, four foot deep”.
>People “glowing orange and disintegrating”. People “turning
>into a fine layer of gray ashes”, all these, BTW, without the
>fire even touching them. All these are “testimonies” about
>Dresden.

>You claim that a major portion of Holocaust-related
>testimonies are impossible? Prove it.

Some day you may be intelligent or honest enough to admit there is a
difference between physical evidence and testimony. If you believe
they are the same, you should accept Jesus into your heart.

># The point you keep missing over and over is that the deaths
># of Germans at Dresden and after the war were not from
># -implausible- causes,

>Garbage. You claim 6 million corpses should be presented. You
>now show me the millions of corpses of Germans who allegedly
>died after the war ended, and in the bombing raids.

>Fair is fair. Show us the corpses.

But of course, you first. And after all of these years, nothing.

># yeah, and not in anywhere near the traces which could support
># a finding they were used as gas chambers. But, ODDLY ENOUGH,
># the traces -do- support the finding that they came from
># delousing fugimant. Gee.

>And Dresden could have caught fire and burned down. Like
>Chicago. It happens you know.

And all of those gassed Jews could have been invented out of the 31
million unaccounted for. It happened, you know.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:27 PDT 1996
Article: 57983 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 10:06:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 7 Aug 1996 04:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
Schultz) wrote:

>Herr Puckler ([email protected]) wrote:

>: It is even more interesting that at no
>: time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the
>: number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.

>On your scale of “interesting”, how interesting is it that Hoess (the
>camp commandant at Auschwitz) admitted that there was mass gassing
>at Auschwitz?

How about his six different and conflicting admissions which you have
read here? If you missed them, go to DejaNews to catch up.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:28 PDT 1996
Article: 57987 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:39:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 17 Aug 1996 00:53:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 15 Aug 1996 21:16:25 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > You are incorrect. Other than that you just prove, once again, that
>you
>> >are an eccentric with rather abberant ideas. I suggest you read a book or
>two
>> >sometime.
>>
>> As I believe I also said, certain attorneys would lie about it.

> The first book your should start with is the dictionary.

The one that defines attorneys?

>> A government can not be assisted unless it chooses to be. But you
>> know that. Non-deputized citizens are not “assistants.” You know
>> that also.
>>
> As described by nazi boy, they were armed vigilantes.

Where would they get guns in his country?

>> As for the rest, I am unaware of any country that does not have the
>> power to change any criteria for citizenship at any time. As you know
>> the US is about ready to modify its rules, perhaps even the
>> Constitution to deal with the current problem.

> Don’t change the subject Matty poo. We are not talking about
>grantuing citizneship (to which you refer) but nazi boy’s proposal that people of
>an ethnic origin of which disapproves have their citizenship arbitrarily revoked.
>No government that believes in basic human rights — including and especially
>the U.S. — can do this.

He, as a citizen of his country, has every right to propose and
advocate anything he wishes within the laws of his country. Other
than that it is unclear what you are talking about. There is no
“basic human right” to live in another country.

However you may talk about a variation upon ex post facto laws and the
like to your heart’s content.

>> Or do you hold there are some rules graven in stone regarding
>> citizenship?

> Again you are trying to change the subject after making an idiotic
>statement. After citizenship is granted, I most certainly do think that the
>citizenship is written in stone. So does the U.S. A small matter of the Fifth
>Amendment and ex post facto laws, Matty poo.

Which of course can be changed.

> But it’s nice to see you attempt the philosophical justification of a
>someone who advocates such a basic violation of human rights then sending
>armed vigilantes out to round up the victims and throw them in concentration
>camps. It always a pleasure to see vermin sticking together.

Which human right is violated? Where do people get guns in Denmark?
Who put the concentration in the camp but you? Or are saying they can
not be run in a humane manner as were the US camps in WW II?

It is also a pleasure to see a pretend attorney who makes an issue of
every pretend “human right” that Israelies will not give to
Palestinians.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57988 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:16:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 01:07:40 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>> It shows how difficult it is to work with HCN, and why it is not possible
>>to kill

>Actually, Hoess says the killing wasn’t the problem. The problem in
>burning the bodies. It was fairly easy to use Zyklon-B.

Hoess says he witnessed instantaneous death in the first experimental
usage. If what you quote is true then what I quote is true.

But then Hoess also talked about Wolzec, the mysterious camp that
remains hidden to this day.

If Hoess is an authority then everything Hoess said is authoritative.

>> and remove so many people in such a short time as claimed in the
>>holoacaust litterature.

>The “literature” does not claim it was easy to do away with the dead.
>That was the problem. This why there were so many crematoriums built.

As you can read, he is talking about removing them from the “gas
chamber” which, except in two of the first use stories, begins almost
immediately, usually without gasmasks, often eating and smoking while
working.

>> I do not exclude the possibility that some people
>>may have been killed in this manner. It is only the number and the procedure
>>I question.

>So it was done then, somehow. Hoess said the killing wasn’t much of a
>problem, remember?

So why is it that only things that support the current version the
holohuggers like can be introduced?

>> It is still disputed whether there were a ventilation systems in the alleged
>>gaschambers.

>Documents show that they were ordered and installed.

You should post them some time. In the mean time, there is no
physical evidence of their ever existing.

They even ordered
>HCN detectors.

With all the fumigation going on, what do you expect?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:47:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:57989 soc.culture.german:83119

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:45:47 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:

>In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>>
>>If Zyklon was so hard to use and dangerous, how come
>>it was so commonly used for fumigation?

>Because it was the only efficient remedy against lice and other vermin in
>those days.
>>
>>
>> Of course, car exhaust and HCN are different; but, again,
>> we know that HCN was routinely releases into the air
>> and nothing happened to the people nearby.

>Do “we” “know” that. HCN is much more poisonous than car exhaust. In the US
>execution gas chambers the convicted have only to inhale the HCN once or
>twice, and he is gone.
>>
>>
>># 12. The Airing should continue for at least 20 hours.
>>
>>I repeat my question: are you suggesting that after people
>>were killed with HCN inside gas chambers in US prisons, they
>>remained strapped to the chair for 20 hours?
>>
>The procedure of operating gas chambers in US prisons are the following:
>
> The procedure, as laid down by law (to effect the death of the convict
>without endangering the prison staff!) is as follows:
> Firstly, the convict is strapped down in a chair in a small chamber.
> Secondly, the chamber is sealed.
> Thirdly, sodium cyanid crystals are poured into a container of
>sulphuric acid. This quickly releases large quantities of hydrogen cyanide
>gas which kills the convict within a matter of seconds.
> Fourthly, the chamber is then flushed with ammonia gas which reacts with
>the hydrogen cyanid gas to form harmless crystals.
> Fifthly, indicators are used to check that the chamber is no longer lethal.
> Sixthly, attendants (wearing gas masks and protective clothing) enter the
>chamber through an air-lock and brush the convict’s hair and clothing to
>dislodge any gas which may still adhering to them.
> Seventhly, the attendants leave and reseal the chamber and air pumps blow
>the atmospheric contents of the chamber out through a high chimney. During
>this process guards in watch-towers are evacuated to ground level.

And this one explains why there is a complete lockdown of all the
prisoners when there is a gas execution, the towers are emptied and it
is a perfect time for a break.

> Eigthly, the convict’s corpse is left left in the chamber for a further
>hour.
> Ninethly, the convict’s corpse is removed from the chamber which there
>after is thouroughly hosed down.

> As you can see, if you go through a complicated procedure it is possible
>to get the body out without waiting 20 hours. According to the established
>historiography the German concentration camp gaschambers were opened
>after app. half an hour and the removal of the bodies began immediately
>without following the above mentioned procedure.

>–
>Ole Kreiberg

>http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (Danish)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57995 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:08:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 17 1:11:39 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 16 Aug 1996 16:09:40 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:46 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>: wrote:
>:
>: > writes:
>: ># Matt Giwer writes:
>:
>: >## A revionist will never call you a name for questioning
>: >## what they post.
>:
>: ># Any fatbroads around to answer?
>:
>: >And “jewboys”?
>:
>: Rather I have not read that term here.

>Liar. You’ve USED that term here.

No. In fact I rather carefully keep away from terms that I do not
create such as holohugger.

>: But of interest to the Jews
>: the males are meaningless. It is only the “jewgirls” that matter.
>:
>: The men are drones in a female dominated society.

>Matt, must you keep posting on subjects of which you’re entirely
>ignorant?

All male Jews die off tomorrow and there is still a future full of
Jews. All female Jews die tomorrow and there are no more Jews in the
world.

Of course you could search around of “On Venus, have we got a Rabbi”
by William Tenn.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!tera.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!agate!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:48:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 17 12:51:31 AM PDT 1996
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On 15 Aug 96 07:16:50, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt Giwer
><+[Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]] [Wed 14 Aug 96 >05:50][Thu 15 Aug 96 01:33][0]*>

> >> The only problem with this theory is that there were two
> >> underground rooms in Kremas II and III which were called
> >> Leichenkellers (morgues). Yet only one of those rooms in each
> >> building was fitted with a gas-tight door. Therefore the
> >> bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and rats would
> >> be able to eat to their hearts’ content.

> MG> There is no evidence o separate fumigation.

> MG> If you are truly claiming there was a room within the LK that
> MG> was the one used, that were were partitions within it, then you
> MG> have created a new order of impossible much like finding orders
> MG> of infinity. They were impossible enough numbers when the
> MG> entire LK was used for gassing. But your claim has produced and
> MG> “aleph sub 1” order of impossibility.

>Egads but you’re not reading, Matt.

>1. That there were 2 rooms is obvious.

For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was “gas
tight.” Why the sudden change? This went all through the discussion
regarding it having more characteristics of a bomb shelter than a gas
chamber.

Now, out of no where and for no reason, a different description is
being brought up. Can you folks ever get your straight among
yourselves before you go public?

>2. That one was gas-tight is obvious.

For at least two maybe three reasons.

>3. Why would one room be gas-tight and the other not if the purpose
> of the cyanide was fumigation?

Give me a URL to annotated drawings showing what you are talking
about.

>4. The size of the room was adequate for the number per gassing. The
> *ROOM* size was given, not the entire complex!

There is no size given above. Perhaps you could supply it? Perhaps
you could also work backwards from the stories of the number gassed in
a single day and find the time per gassing as others have done so many
times? Or are you still to busy to read enough to know what has gone
on here?

> >> not even leaving the newsgroup. I would have thought someone
> >> as smart as he thinks he is would have figured it out long
> >> ago. But of course he is not half as smart as he thinks he is.

> MG> Legal way? You mean that I should point to a law that
> MG> prohibits Nizkor volunteers from conspiring to violate my
> MG> copyright to what I post?

>Fair use, Matt.

Excerpts are fair use last time Iooked into it.

A complete archive of the entire newsgroup would also be acceptable.

You certainly know it is a conspiracy to violate my copyright. Even
YFE knows that but he remains silent on the matter.

>And don’t pull the Canadian/American schtick again. I’m talking
>about the same thing on both sides of the border.

>IOW – there is no law that prevents them from publishing your
>broadcasts.

Everything created is covered by copyright from the moment of being
set into fixed form whether or not copyright is asserted at the time.
You know that.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:32 PDT 1996
Article: 57997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Def
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:44:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 16 10:47:21 PM PDT 1996
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On Fri, 16 Aug 96 00:05:00 +0100, [email protected] (ANGUS
MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes

>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:30:01 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>># A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and
>>># died in a reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time
>>># prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements.

>Oddly enough, the Giwer’s beloved Nazis were none too fussy on the
>”rules of warfare”, e.g. the ‘Commissar Order’, ‘Nacht und Nebel’, the
>’Bullet Decree’, the murder of German and Czech exiles in 1940, the
>murder by ommission and commission of millions of prisoners of war, et
>cetera ad nauseam and well beyond. But don’t take my word for it.

>From Richard Overy’s “Why the Allies Won” (Jonathon Cape, London, 1995,
>ISBN 0 224 04172 X), pp 302-303.

>”Before the campaign [i.e. in Russia] the old laws of war were torn up.
>The army was issued with the ‘Commissar Order’ which permitted the
>murder of any Communist Party functionary found with the Red Army. In
>June 1941 the German army was freed by the regime from any restrictions
>under the 1899 Hague rules on the conduct of land warfare. The security
>services under Himmler were prepared to follow the armies into the
>Soviet Union specifically to murder anyone defined as an enemy of
>Germandom. Himmler asked his forces to behave with merciless violence
>against the races of the east who know ‘with animal instinct why they
>are fighting’. In July 1941 Himmler’s instructions to the security
>forces were to act against any populations defined as potentially anti-
>German or racially inferior by shooting indiscriminately all males,
>deporting the women and children, seizing food and valuables and burning
>the villages to the ground. Hitler sanctioned even the murder of women
>and children if it served his principle of preserving at all costs the
>lives of German soldiers. [75]”

>[75] See Norman Rich, “Hitler’s War Aims”, volume 1 and Omer Bartov,
>”Hitler’s Army”.

And as you know, the 1899 rules were not unilaterally binding but only
applied when signatories to it were at war with each other. And if a
signatory allied with a non-signatory then the rules were inoperative
for all the allies. That means that if any one of the countries
allied against Germany was not a signtory, Germany was not bound by
them.

Your next task is to look up which countries were signatories and
which were not.

And please do not come back with a variation upon “it doesn’t matter.”
People spend thousands of man-hours negotiating those rules. And the
specific terms under which they became inoperable were put there for a
reason.

>> That is called a reprisal. The same thing was done in France.

>Apart from the one-off occurence at Oradour, where and when ? Even if it
>had been the norm – which, most fortunately for the French, it was not –
>how could that possibly excuse such behaviour in the Nazi-occupied parts
>of the USSR ?

It is still in question just what in fact happened and what was
Russian war propaganda. And it is of interest to note that any male
of any nationality that could hobble onto the battlefield was given a
rifle and pointed towards the Germans and if they turned around were
shot by the Russians.

Where are those people documented? No where, but it explains a lot of
missing people. Add to that the conditions of winter under worse
conditions than the recent ones in Bosnia

>

No answer I see.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:33 PDT 1996
Article: 57998 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:37:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 17 12:40:08 AM PDT 1996
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:41:31 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>>>
>>> Unless you have access to something other than Nizkor, what we have is
>>>as follows. A film negative chosen for the best performance for
>>>aerial surveillance pictures. Then we have the type of development
>>>chosen as best for such pictures. Then we have a halftone image
>>>created for a book. Finally we have a scan by someone of unknow skill
>>>in making a good scan.
>>>
>>> If I have to state the obvious, the only way to seriously deal with
>>>the picture is to
>>>
>>> 1) get the negative
>>>
>>> 2) get the characteristics of the film
>>>
>>> 3) make a neutral scan at greater than the grain size.
>>>
>>> Without these three it is good only for gross analysis.
>>
>> Intentionally making photos obscure is a common practice of the
>>Holocaust dependents.
>>

>Here it is folks! When you are beaten by a piece of evidence, claim it
>has been doctored in some fashion or is distorted. Do this without
>presenting any evidence at all. Do this by saying so!

>Amazing. These folks are always true to form.

You obviosly can not read but if it did state what you claim then you
folks should be jumping on it to explain why they do not support your
claims about them. Or should I post the picture with comments again?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:51:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:39820 alt.revisionism:58001

On 16 Aug 1996 09:19:47 -0700, [email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> The Jews were here last. The development of writing occurred over
>>a long period of time, with the last great contribution coming from
>>the Phoenicians.
>>
>> The Meso-Americans left a great history of art, as did the
>>Phoenicians and everyone else. Everyone but the Jews. They had to have
>>the same build their temple. They had no skills or culture.
>>
>> The Phoenicians and the Hebrews lived next to each other. They
>>were two entirely two different cultures.
>>
>> History books and history art books might have twenty of thirty
>>pages on various societies, but when it comes to the Hebrews, maybe
>>one page.
>>
>> Any boats the Hebrews ever had, they had to have the Phoenicians
>>build them for them. If anyone ever got to the Americas from the
>>Mediterranean it would have been the Phoenicians, and the Hebrews
>>would have been the least likely.

>Hitler was smarter than Churchill!

>Hitler was a better dancer than Churchill!

Does this mean you are a Yankee Doodle Dandy?

>-rich
> [blue-ribbon disclaimer: it’s called sarcasm, son, SARCASM]
> censor the internet! http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/
> boycott fadetoblack! http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:54:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:43:55 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># All you can do is is your Baysian “assume it did happen”
># approach to life. Such an ignoramus.

>There is nothing about the Bayesian approach that “assumes
>it did happen”.

>I told you already. You’re a zero, a failure.

>You can’t handle basic arithmetic, yet you pretend
>to understand higher mathematics.

>You’re a joke.

We are all still awaiting you to post your first numeric analysis of
anything having to do with the gassing.

You can not or you will not because the results are against gassing.

>See below.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
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CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:35 PDT 1996
Article: 58021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor conspirators
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:25:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 16 2:28:09 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Without question one director and two volunteers have agree, read
conspired, to violate copyright protected material.

Why are these people being protected because they are holohuggers?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:36 PDT 1996
Article: 58030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!zdc-e!zdc!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph – zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:32:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 17 1:36:00 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:14:17 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># I have been through a real world test of Baysian stats.
># I funded it. I mean like out of my budget.

># I have no idea why people continue to play around with it.

>Because it works.

>Call ARPA and tell them to halt their project on
>detecting roads in aerial images. It uses Bayesian
>analysis. Just one example.

If 1/10th of what ARPA does pays off, they call a celebration.

>You’re talking about things of which you don’t
>have a clue. You don’t know anything about mathematics
>or its applications.

>Define Bayesian analysis, and show how it is applied,
>for instance, to restore images. Go ahead. I am waiting.

>You don’t know anything about any technical matter, as
>is proven here every day.

>You’re a sad clown.

And you are the one who has NEVER responded to a calculation with
another calculation.

You are either unable to do it or you know that if done honestly it
does not support your holohuggery.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 58066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.privacy,alt.censorship,alt.whistleblowing,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,dc.politics,alt.law-enforcement,misc.legal,us.legal,sci.econ,alt.politics.corruption.mena,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.latin-america,alt.politics.economics,alt.drugs,talk.politics.drugs,alt.drugs,sci.med
Subject: Re: CLINTON: Reverses Pursuit of “Most Wanted” Drug Banker
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:21:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 138
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:34:55 GMT, [email protected] (stephenh)
wrote:

>U.S. Lets Drug Banker Off

>Narcotics continue to flood America as officials turn a blind eye
>to the real culprits: crooked politicians both here and abroad,
>and the North American Free Trade Agreement, which leaves our borders
>wide open to drugs from Mexico, Columbia and other countries.

>BY MARTIN MANN

>August 19, 1996

>With federal anti-narcotics programs already in hopeless disarray,
>the Clinton administration was jolted last month by the discovery
>that the international drug banker at the top of its “most wanted”
>list, millionaire financier Harry Beda, was an agent of
>the Mossad, Israel’s secret service.

>”Beda was arrested by the Columbian police in June and
>charged with running a huge money-laundering network that linked
>Miami to a number of Latin American cities,” says Quilli Osorio,
>a Mexican reporter. “The U.S. demanded to get custody of him
>right away– until they found out he was an Israeli. Then they
>dropped it in a hurry.”

>But the report that the ministate’s money movers were once again
>in the midst of the booming “coke and smoke” trade was only one
>of the ticking time bombs the U.S. drug enforcement chiefs
>were handed in recent weeks, law enforcement sources say.

>One of the front companies for Beda’s cocaine cash conduits,
>known as the Orexana Corp. of Hialeah, Fla., was found
>to have contributed thousands of dollars in laundered drug cash
>to the election campaigns of then Sen. Al Gore (D-Tenn.)
>and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), former chairman of the Senate
>subcommittee on narcotics and terrorism.

>Such payoffs have become commonplace among American politicians,
>according to a faceless witness identified only as “Maria”
>who appeared under heavy security guard at a hearing held
>by Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.), the powerful chairman of the Senate
>Foreign Relations Committee, in Washington earlier this month.

>Shielded from TV cameras by a backlit screen, Maria was described
>as a member of Columbia’s elite political establishment involved
>in funneling millions of dollars fromthe Cali cocaine cartel
>to the campaign of President Ernesto Samper.

>Her testimony left no doubt that Samper had actively solicited–
>and on occasion personally accepted– a grand total of $6 million
>from a consortium of vicious drug wholesalers.

>Under pressure to “do something,” the Clinton administration
>declared Samper *persona* *non* *grata* and lifted his U.S. visa,
>as well as the required “certification” of his government
>as an honest enforcer of international narcotics regulations.

>”But Columbia is not the only culprit. There is new evidence
>that the election of Panamanian President Ernesto Perez
>Balladares, favored by the Clinton administration,
>was also financed by drug bankers,” Osorio said. “And this graft
>does not stop south of the border.”

>NAFTA

>In fact, the greatest single boon the drug trade has enjoyed
>in recent years has turned out to be the U.S.-sponsored
>North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), law enforcement
>experts say.

>In an attempt to justify the Clinton administration’s support
>of this pernicious pacet, U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin
>has been boasting in recent weeks about Mexico’s ability
>to make good on some of the bailout credits it received
>from Washington last year.

>”Rubin says we collected hefty interest payments, too, and made
>a profit on some of these emergency loans,” says Harry Prebisch,
>a former executive of Keefe, Bruyette, the leading Wall Street
>broker of bank securities. “What he forgets to add
>is that such Mexican debt financing almost invariably
>represents laundered drug profits. It is the only booming
>growth industry south of Tijuana.”

>Veteran federal drug enforcement experts privately agreed
>with his blunt conclusions.

>”Most of the capital investment going into Mexico’s economic
>infrastructure comes from drug proceeds these days,” confirmed
>Jack Kelley, the U.S. Customs agent in charge of San Diego
>field office.

>His colleague, Craig Chretien, director of operations for
>the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in San Diego, voiced
>similar views. Goldman, Sachs, a leading Wall Street
>investment bank headed by Rubin before he joined the incoming
>Clinton administration in 1992, helped set up a number of
>consulting firms to show Mexican exporters how they can profit
>from NAFTA.

>GET JOBS

>Now many of these advisers have been hired by Mexico’s drug magnates
>looking “for someone knowledgeable to counsel them about taking
>better advantage of NAFTA,” says Chretien.

>In the U.S., cocaine and heroin “have never been cheaper or
>more plentiful,” admitted Gen. Brian McCaffery, the Clinton
>administration’s new drug czar in a recent TV interview.

>One result is that emergency-room admissions of youths under
>18 suffering from drug overdoses have just about doubled
>during the past 12 months, warning that narcotics are no longer
>just one among numerous public-health problems: they are becoming
>a plague.

>Copyright by The SPOTLIGHT Newspaper
>Liberty Lobby, Inc.
>300 Independence Avenue SE
>Washington, DC 20003

>Subscription: 800 522 6292

If Israel is involved it is safe from public notice as was the
Israel-Iran-Contra affair.

The US can do anything illegal or immoral as long as Israel is
involved as the US media will not make an issue of anything involving
Israel. It is an amusing bit of religious politics but far from
separtation of church and state.

But there, there is only double talk when it come to Jews being a
religion or a superstitious bunch of idiots without a common faith.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:38 PDT 1996
Article: 58086 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:01:45 GMT
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On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:15:09 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >Now for the $64 questions.
>>
>> >1. What happens to calcium carbonate when heated?
>>
>> >2. What happens to that(1) when placed in water?
>>
>> >3. What happens to that(2) when exposed to CO2?
>>
>> When bones are heated the small bones will go down to ash. The large
>> bones become brittle from the loss of the organic material that kept
>> them flexible. At the end of the cremation process they are ground to
>> some fragment size.
>>
>> Exposure of this relatively inert material to either water or CO2
>> results in nothing.

>Water and CO2 form an acidic solution.

That is not what was stated, fool.

>Bone exposed to an acidic solution will dissolve.

>Next stupid comment?

Lets get back to your claim that boundary flow rates are the same as
the middle of the river flow rates, oh great expert on rivers.

Are you ready to admit you made that one up out of whole cloth just to
convince the lurkers?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 58164 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:37:20 GMT
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On 17 Aug 1996 22:29:12 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Want to address the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that HCN
>>causes in your reality?

> Want to address the fact that no witness ever said this, confessed
>liar?

It is found in

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot

which is carried by Nizkor where I found it.

Are you saying Nizkor spreads false stories without foundation in
addition to Bernard Naumann making up things like thing?

Are you suggesting the original source was not a witness?

Who do you suggest fabricated this account?

Why is it you only question the stories that are so absurd that even
you can see it?

Which of the other stories do you challenge? The one where Hoess says
he was watching it or the one that says he was out of town?

Browse them all and tell me which two of the three are false.

A Tale of three Gassings

A Tale of Three Gassings



      What you are going to read are
three different descriptions of the “discovery” of the utility of
Zyklon B in mass extermination. Where you would expect to find
the stories to be complimentary and to shed light upon each other
we find just the opposite.


      We find unexplainable
contradictions. In one case we find an unexplainable identical
mistake on color based upon a common misconception. We find
different people and numbers of people involved.


      We even find an absolutely
impossible detail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing
comparison.

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot1

KL Auschwitz as seen by SS Hoess, Broad and Kremer, second
edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-952

Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ


various sources


embedded in text

commentary

Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps
for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a shot in
the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the
Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on
the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however,
an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser

“The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11.
Proctected by a gas mask, I [Höss] watched the killing
myself.

      Auschwitz had been receiving
trainloads of Soviet commissars and other POW’s who were subject
to liquidation. Höss’s men had shot previous shipments of
Russian prisoners, but on September 3 Höss’s enterprising
subordinate Hauptsturmführer Fritsch

Note that different people are involved in the different stories.
In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch, and
in another it is Höss himself.

noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing
the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed
to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.

It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it
was to be used
. Now we had the gas, and we had established a
procedure.

      thought of an expedient new method
based on the camp’s own experience. The buildings, many of them
former Polish army barracks, were full of insects, and the camp
administration had previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide
firm of Tesch and Stabenow to get rid of them.


      Two experts had fumigated
particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a
crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous
when exposed to the air. (Höss, "Commandant of
Auschwitz," 175. Interrogation of Höss, 14 May 1946, NA
RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)

      In the first story the companions
of this officer are doing the delousing. In the second story,
Höss and Eichmann had already decided to use a gas but
strangely did not know what gas they were going to use. In the
third case professional exterminators did the fumigation.


      Note also that person knocked out
with one whiff of a deadly poison but recovers. This is contrary
to the pathology of cyanide poisoning.

      Note further that it is not a
crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen
cyanide absorbed into wood pulp3.

      To Breitwieser, this seemed to
offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming
executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the
Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue
pellets,

   

      Note that these pellets is given
as blue even though, wood pulp is grey. Cyanide itself is
colorless but its common name in German translates as blue
acid4.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians
awaiting execution.

 

      On September 3 Fritsch decided to
experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians and
another 250 sick prisoners
from the camp hospital into an
underground detention cell.

      Note that both the number and the
composition of the people differ.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the
Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and
it was all over….

Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas
masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like
blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of
poison gas.


      After they left, the doors
were sealed.(Höss, Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also
Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in Jäckel and Rohwere,
eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Höss wrote later that
death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what he was told. But
he was not present to witness the event; he was away on a
business trip.

      Note that the first story appears
to indicate dropped in from above as in some other stories while
another has a "walked among" indication. In another it
is thrown it.


      Note in the third story there is a
clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the gas
is invisible.


      Note also that this separate and
independent story also invents a false blue color.


      Note also Höss clearly states
that he watched the instant death in one story yet another claims
Höss was not even there.

Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the
bodies were met by a fearsome sight.

In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the
Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and
it was all over…

      Other sources indicate that even
the next day not everyone was dead
, and the SS men had to
release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died. When
Höss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful
experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz, Höss told
him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to
Höss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant
farmstead for extermination.(Höss, Commandant, 175. From the
History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)

      Here we have a strange set of
disagreements. The first story told of immediate
unconscioussness in his “discovery” but in the next part of the
story we see that did not in fact happen. In the second story
there was near instaneous unconsciousness as the first story
begins with. The third story insists upon some being alive the
next day. The first and third appear to like the two day time
frame.

Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their
death agonies, torn out each other’s hair, and bitten off their
fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous
blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail
tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)

 

&nbsp

      Here we have a description worthy
of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King
would never make.


      Go back and read about the
statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas.
Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they
die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted
injuries.


      And then somehow this particular
cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and which can
not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing into
gelatinous masses.


      When impossible things are claimed
to have happened rest assured someone is making up a story.


      We have two different people getting
the
idea to use it but in the first case his companions are charged with
delousing
and in the second case professional fumigators are brought in.

      In one story it is 1000 Russians. In
the
other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick people.

      In one case the pellets are dropped
into
the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are walking around in the
room to spread it.

      In neither case is the room large
enough to hold even the lowest number of people.


      In the first story there is a very
strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked out but
recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting) while in
the latter, they may or may not have died immediately. No
horrifying details are noted.


      In the former story the impossible
gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does not include
them or anything out of the ordinary.


      One has to wonder how people who
implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story and
the conflicts between them.

Footnotes


1also found on Nizkor, sort of a holocaust
database but it may be purged by the time you get there. It
conflicts with the story they approve. They do not provide full
attribution of the original work.


2 “The gassing was carried out in the detention cells
of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing
myself. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the
moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry,
and it was all over…. I must even admit that this gassing set
my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to
start soon, and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain
as to how these mass killings were to be carried out. In would be
by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used.
Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.” “KL
Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer”, second edition,
Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.


3 Zyklon for Pest Control, A
publication of the Degesh company which was the manufacturer of
Zyklon as well as the manufacturer of stationary and portable
delousing chambers that used it.


      During the war the company
advertised that it’s equipment had been used to delouse the
possesssions of 25 million people.

Composition


      In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid
hydrocyanic acid is chemically stabilized and absorbed in a
porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs
prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred as in
view of their larger surface they give off the gas more rapidly.
Upon request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material
can easily be collected at the end of the fumigation.


4The common mis-identification is generally attributed
to this common name, blausäur, blue acid. The naming is
related to its reaction with iron that produces the pigment,
prussian blue. Acids produce a sour (säur) taste.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 58202 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:52:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 17 Aug 1996 22:44:30 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:34:28 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>>> Try it this way. His manual, very like the gassing witnesses, says
>>>>that anything a bullet strikes will disappear.
>>>>
>>
>>>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>>>have his manual? Oh, you’re lying again. I see.
>>
>> It is called an analogy, child. Gas someone and every bit of physical
>>evidence disappears.

> Bad analogy, then.

> The bodies themselves were made to disappear. Ample documentation of
>the crematoria and the ovens used to burn the bodies exist –
>correspondence between Topf u. Sohne and the SS, bills, orders, etc. This
>documentation is physical evidence.

How many thousand tons of ashes were found? How many large deposits
of ashes were found?

After you get passed none, what is your response?

> And of course there is the physical evidence Matt has been presented
>but pretends not to have seen.

> Cyanide traces in the Kremas. He has yet to give an honest response
>to the flaws I pointed out in his claim that this was from fumigation.

You have presented none as there has yet to be any valid study of the
matter. Unless you have your own unpublished study, there still is
none.

>(He has yet to understand that there were two different underground rooms
>in Krema II, and that both were called “morgues” on the construction
>drawings, but only one could be fumigated.)

You have yet to demonstrate any such thing. Post the drawings and the
reasons why only one could be fumigated. Did not HCN evaporate in one
of the rooms? More Nazi physics at work?

> A letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a “gassing cellar.”

> A letter from Becker to Rauff about gassing vans, confirmed by Rauff
>in a deposition he gave in Chile.

> A gas-tight door with the inside protected by a wire-mesh grille. (In
>order to protect people inside a bomb shelter from glass splinters, it
>would make more sense to use a solid plate on a swivel.)

Is there not some rule here against “I can think of a better way?” Or
does that rule apply only in one direction? And need I ask?

But then why not explain why a peephole in an unlighted room without
windows is of any value? What did the SS see in the dark? Or could
the SS see in the dark?

Or are you suddenly going to discover lightbulbs and interior wiring
and switches for the first time?

> An inventory sheet listing showerheads in a room whose construction
>drawings show no plumbing for showers. (Matt has consistently
>misrepresented this point – it is not the lack of physical plumbing which
>is significant, but the lack of _plans_ for that plumbing even on drawings
>which show the other plumbing in the room.) This physical evidence
>corroborates the eyewitness testimony of dummy showers.

Excuse me one more time but such plans have never been posted. Would
you please do so from the book you have which carries the complete
plans for the building? And then will you explain how ZB pellets get
through showerheads?

Where are the drawings of the mechanism to release it from ZB and move
it through the showerheads without piping that is? Or are you
formally abjuring the old truth just like an antisemite?

And where were these showerheads save in Germany were there were no
gas chambers according to Wiesel and Wiesenthal?

>>>> As for the will to so something, the descriptions of what was supposed
>>>>to have happened does not match any but the grossest descriptions.
>>>>
>>
>>>Of course they do.
>>
>> Not that anyone here has been able to demonstrate. The best you folks
>>can do is what you just did. Claim that they do or that it has been
>>demonstrated but never being able to produce the evidence of if.

> The best Matt Giwer can do is lie.

>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.

As a contributor, Stein, you are also a conspirator in violating my
copyright in the material I write. Keep it coming. I love it.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:41 PDT 1996
Article: 58206 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:08:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:18:59 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:

>In article , Holger Skok wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>Holger Skok wrote:
>>>>Ole, just look at the agenda of the CSU, the “Republikaner”, the DVU and the
>>>>NPD. Even though members of the former will hate it to be named in one
>>>>sentence with the remaining three, all of them are very firmly against
>>>>immigration.
>>
>>Then the Kreiberg responded:
>>> Today it is still permitted in Germany to be against immigration, but for
>>>how long? Little by little there will be initiated new laws to combat
>>>”racism”, and these parties will be prohibited too. Germany is on it’s
>>>way to become a real totalitarian society. The German government seems
>>>even willing to put down things that do not have the slightest to do with
>>>politics and ethnicity. Severe measures have already been taken against
>>>Scientology and measures are planned against Transcendental Meditation.
>>>Everything which do not conform with the worldview and ideology of the
>>>German government are to be suppressed. Germany is today the biggest
>>>menace to freedom and democracy in Europe, just like it was in 1939.
>>>
>>> If the Germans just could keep all that in their own country, but through
>>>the European Union and in other ways they work hard to restrict fundamental
>>>rights in other European countries.
>>
>>I’d sure be very surprised if the CSU was ever to be prohibited. That would
>>require that our government outlaw itself – not exactly the likeliest
>>thing to happen in any country on the planet. But you’re welcome to repeat
>>silliness like this one, because that shows pretty clearly how serious
>>your paranoid observations have to be taken.
>>
>I was hinting at the “republikanern” and DVU. CSU can just change and adapt
>it’s policy.

>>I think that it is pretty obvious that the aims of $cientology are
>>incompatible with important parts of our constitution and so being
>>in public office and being a member of that “church” are incompatible.

>But scientology is no political movement.

Which demonstrates how far the politically correct of the holohugger
persuasion will go to invent a point.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58211 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:44:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:47:02 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>>Holger Skok wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>I am still waiting, too, on an explanation for the dismissal of all the
>>>documents,
>>>testimonies and circumstantial evidence all corroborating the mass gassings
>>>at Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Revisionists have to disregard
>>>all this and I’d like to know what they give as a reason for doing so.

>>If you take a closer look on following websites

>>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg or
>>http://www.codoh.com

>>you will find answers.

>But if you’re interested in the truth, and not psychological paranoia,
>then enter nizkor.almanac.bc.ca and read something that is true.
>(which is very rare if you look at this newsgroup).

>SUPPORT THE NIZKOR PROJECT!

You are clearly supporting conspiracy to violate copyrights. Despite
what the fools here are talking about, “fair use” means short quotes
used within other contexts.

Read the following and see if limited scope and eduction can be
connected with what is done on Nizkor.

Neither is Nizkor a body of work that uses these infringing materials
as part of a larger picture.

Nor is it part of an educational plan. Nor is it research. Nizkor is
simply an accumulation (collection is too high a term for it) of other
people’s material, all of which are protected by copyright, including
all halftone images. It is quite clearly a conspiracy to steal on the
hightest and most open order.

=====

U.S. COPYRIGHT ACT, AS AMENDED
…CHAPTER 1. SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A [17 USCS §§
106, 106A] the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by
reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified
by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include–

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such
use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational
purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation
to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value
of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors.

[Amended 10/24/92 by Pub. L. No. 102-492 which added this last
sentence to § 107.]

=====

Is there something you have a problem with?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58219 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:58:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:32:38 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:

>In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>> >In article , [email protected] (Ole
>>> >Kreiberg) wrote:
>>> >
>>> Hey, where in the …. is Ostland?
>>
>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East.
>>
>>>…It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.
>>
>>Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
>>even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
>>rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
>>history, on the peoples who lived there.
>>
>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
>>least of whom’s victims were several million Jews.
>>
>So Ostland was like “Westland” to the Americans 200 years ago – A place to
>conquor and settle. A lot of Red Indians were deported from the east to
>US “Westland”. Oklohoma started out as such dumping ground for Red Indians.
>One of those events of Red Indians being deported is called something like
>the long march of tears. Have you Americans forgotten about that? Is the
>reason that you Americans are so busy remembering German history that you
>hope German atrocities may overshadow your own which thus may be forgotten?

It is a rather modern conceit that civilians should be left harmless
during war. It is sort of a like a belief in the chilvalric ideal but
only promoted by the civilians who got in the way.

It is quite an amusing fantasy that is promoted about that particular
war despite their clear knowledge of what has happened to people in
other wars. Vietnamese civilians were chewed up by both sides in that
war. Yet although it was clearly started by the North there are
people here who will defend the North for starting that war regardless
of what happened to the civilians.

In many apects it is similar. The guerrila troops lived of village
tribute, conscripted young men, killed off the leaders of any village
to even spoke against them, did a little decimating or worse if any
village resisted, women and children included.

So they know what war is really like and yet they pretend there was
something different when the Germans did it. But then that is not the
answer. The answer is the small fraction of Jews who got caught up in
it compared to the 31 million who vanished without a trace.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58225 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: African-Americans, tired of all that White supremacy?
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:32:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 16:32:43 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Anonymous)
>wrote:

>[racist diatribe deleted]

>Gee, I don’t know. First of all, I wouldn’t believe ANYTHING said by
>someone who doesn’t have the gonads to post his/her name.
>
>Anonymous people are cowards. Prove _ME_ wrong.

Like our favorite holohogger, Marduk, who is a coward and ho
holohugger of the first order.

He is an animal like all holohuggers.

But then all holohuggers are animals.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:44 PDT 1996
Article: 58238 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:55:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 01:31:33 +0000, Stig wrote:

>Thing is, I’ve read a couple of interviews with and he’s said that the
>”UFO REsearch” stuff was basically a sensationalistic way for him to
>raise easy cash from fringe-types to finance his revisionist exploits.
>It’s certainly not necessary now that the hate prosecutions he’s
>undergone have upped his profile and made him a millionaire, but I’m
>sure it’s a good sideline, and might sucker some X-Files types into his
>neo-Nazi lair!

Your ignorance of UFOlogy is is touching. Zundel was a child when the
first UFOs are Nazi inventions story came out. It was mainstream
speculation between 1947 and 1957 or so when the media started to drop
UFO coverage.

You really have to get the mindset of the war propaganda of the times.
Nazis were credited with every imaginable (and mostly imaginary)
superweapon. In fact a very well received movie regarding Nazis
cloning supermen in Brazil was a major success despite its impossible
biology as little was 20 years ago.

If Zundel was a ripoff so what the movie.

Boys from Brazil, right up there with “Amazon Women from the Avocado
Jungle” as a B movie but because of the performances and the
performers it gets a “credible” rating, regardless of being as equally
idiotic as Nazi UFOs.

It is a touch like Shindler’s List. It gets away with cloning in the
same manner that Star Wars gets away with its nonsense. All Science
Fiction should be grouped together.

Nazi UFOs, Boys from Brazil and Star Wars are all fantasies of the SF
kind.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:45 PDT 1996
Article: 58239 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:11:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:14:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from
># France just to gas them in Poland. Or would not the French
># “stand for it”?

>I responded to this in my reply to “kurtstele”.

You did not. Please repost your claim.

># Not in the Ukraine, not run by Pol Pot.

>What about the gulags? How many people were shipped
>there by trains? The Soviets could do it, and the
>Nazis couldn’t?

The Soviets documented every one of them and also recorded the death
of every one of them and there is no disagreement in the numbers. If
you do not invent gassing the Nazi numbers agree with the registered.

>## Ok, let’s here it. What gas do you think they should
>## have used?

># CO2, free from breathing. If you want it faster, dump
># some burning coke down your “induction columns.” It is
># not as though it is all that hard to do it cheaper.

>Too slow.

As you know the “cremation” was the bottleneck. There was no need for
speed when cremation could not keep up.

>Funny thing is the following. Suppose the Nazis would have
>killed people that way. Then, as we know well, the
>”revisionists” would be saying “why kill people with
>such slow, idiotic, primitive methods, when you have
>numerous quantities of Zyklon-B around, which can do
>the job within minutes, and is very cheap?”.

So you presume they could tell the future? How strange.

>## The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>## prisons. A natural choice.

># But something as foolish as ZB is not used and would be
># quite a riduculous way to go about it.

>Look, you sorry imbecile. It makes no difference. It releases
>the same gas – HCN – which is used to kill people in gas
>chambers in US prisons.

Not in the same time frame as you well know a a mathematician even
though your REFUSE to post any calculations.

>Can’t you miserable drecks understand that it doesn’t
>matter what the source of the gas is? That it will kill
>people nontheless?

NOT as described by your favorite witnesses as you well know.

>## There are many more such documents.

># Two, neither clear, amidst all the rest with no
># such indication.

>This, from someone who claimed Belsen camp was in Poland.

>I told you already, you don’t know anything.

>There are many more than two documents proving an
>extermination plan.

There are still only two.

># You folks started “discovering” the
># morgues were really gas chambers about four years ago.

>You demonstrate your insanity once again. The location
>of the Birkenau gas chambers was well-known since
>the liberation.

You are requested to post that in explicite form from any or all of
the IMT records. Please show explicitely that they were described in
testimony.

But you know that we have been over this and NOT ONE post desecribed
the LKs in any manner of interest. You know it but you post to the
contrary, knowingly doing so.

># You home can function as a gas chamber. Prove it is not.

>There are no witnesses who say it functioned as a gas chamber.

What do witnesses matter? Have you never heard of the McMartain Day
Care Center trial?

>There are no cyanide compounds on the walls.

What does that matter? And how do you know, oh one data point lover?

>There are no documents which prove it was used as a gas
>chamber.

It meets the criteria.

>Stop being such a fool.

Learn some arithmetic you lying bastard.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:46 PDT 1996
Article: 58248 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:30:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:21:06 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , [email protected] (Daniel
>>Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele)wrote:
>>>>
>>>> # Now the exterminations [of Stalin and Pol Pot], in contrast to the
>>”holocaust,
>>>> # made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
>>>> # obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
>>>> # and/or starvation.
>>>>
>>>> The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>>>> of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
>>>>
>>>> All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>>>> with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>>>> saved ammunition.
>>
>>>Indeed. On average 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. A rifle
>>>cartridge cost more than that.
>>
>>>Mark
>>
>>Care to show your calculations in achieving $.08?
>>
>>Why don’t you do your calculations over again, this time factoring in, as
>>you should have done before, the costs of -everything else- involved in
>>”gassing” prisoners under the circumstances.
>>
>>You’re saying that shipping prisoners across the European continent by
>>train, during a war, to tag them, house them, and then gas them, using up
>>valuable resources in energy, manpower, and cost of upkeep and “deathcamp”
>>administration, is -cheaper- then just shooting them dead on the spot?
>>

>Clue #1: The state didn’t pay for it. As Hilberg shows in his
>_Destruction of the European Jews_ the funding for the one way tickets
>was paid for by the Jews themselves. Confiscated property and moneys
>made it possible to take the state off the hook.

And you really believe that the railraods were the only onew who stood
up to the Nazis and demanded Reichmarks in payment else they would not
do as ordered.

You have a very strange view of a Fuehrerstadt.

>They did try shooting them dead, but the reports from those in the
>field showed that the shooters were stressed out about it. They had to
>come up with a different way. Shooting was taking a psychological
>price out of the soldiers and local police forces assigned to do the
>shootings. I suggest you read the histories by Christopher Browning.
>_Ordinary Men_ comes to mind.

Excuse me but it would take only one pathological type to operate the
machinegun after they were lined up.

But to follow your line of reasoning, on Jewish Sonderkommandos could
stomach gassing thousands at a time.

Is this another manner in which Jews are superior to Germans even if
they are German?

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:47 PDT 1996
Article: 58249 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:34:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 18 Aug 1996 03:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

> [Giwer’s invasion of another’s privacy snipped]
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

> Gee Matty poo, it’s nice to know that, when in a drunken rage, can
>repeat a post you have made several times in the past. But now prove that you
>can explain some of your past lie. For example, why don’t we start with your
>statement that there were convictions of Germans at Nuremberg for massacring
>Polish soldiers at Katyn Woods and that several defendants were hung for that
>crime.

> –YFE

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:48 PDT 1996
Article: 58250 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:34:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 18 Aug 1996 03:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

> [Giwer’s invasion of another’s privacy snipped]

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
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> Gee Matty poo, it’s nice to know that, when in a drunken rage, can
>repeat a post you have made several times in the past. But now prove that you
>can explain some of your past lie. For example, why don’t we start with your
>statement that there were convictions of Germans at Nuremberg for massacring
>Polish soldiers at Katyn Woods and that several defendants were hung for that
>crime.

> –YFE

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:49 PDT 1996
Article: 58252 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:06:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 17 Aug 1996 13:35:14 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 17 Aug 1996 00:53:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > Don’t change the subject Matty poo. We are not talking about
>> >grantuing citizneship (to which you refer) but nazi boy’s proposal that people
>of
>> >an ethnic origin of which disapproves have their citizenship arbitrarily
>revoked.
>> >No government that believes in basic human rights — including and
>especially
>> >the U.S. — can do this.
>>
>> He, as a citizen of his country, has every right to propose and
>> advocate anything he wishes within the laws of his country. Other
>> than that it is unclear what you are talking about. There is no
>> “basic human right” to live in another country.

> Of course he can advocate any silly thing he wants. But you are still
>trying to change the subject. nazi boy advocates removing the citizenship of
>Danish citizens. They are not living in “another country” but their own country.
> nazi boy is *not* writing about illegal aliens. By the way, legal aliens in the U.S.
>and Canada most certainly do have the basic human right to live in those
>countries. Ask Zundel.

Excuse me but it appears you are proclaiming that a legally given
citizenship has to be maintained as a basic human right. You are very
confused regarding human rights and legal rights. But then, you want
to confuse them so you can get rocks off saying Nazi.

>> > Again you are trying to change the subject after making an idiotic
>> >statement. After citizenship is granted, I most certainly do think that the
>> >citizenship is written in stone. So does the U.S. A small matter of the Fifth
>> >Amendment and ex post facto laws, Matty poo.
>
>> Which of course can be changed.

> Only if you wish to deprive people of basic human rights.

Recite the basic human right you are talking about.

We can not go any further until you do.

>> Which human right is violated? Where do people get guns in
>Denmark?

> Gee Matty poo, is your position that depriving people of basic rights
>without due process of law is not a violation of human rights? You are either
>dishonestly taking a position for debate only or you are a real geek.

The law is changed, that is due process. Next question. Or do you
think you are an attorney or something similarly repulsive?

>> Who put the concentration in the camp but you? Or are saying they can
>> not be run in a humane manner as were the US camps in WW II?

> nazi boy has written that the camps should be made as unpleasant as
>possible so that the Danish citizens who he has deprived of their basic rights will
> be as uncomforatble as possible.

There are no recited basic rights on the table in this discussion.

>> It is also a pleasure to see a pretend attorney who makes an issue of
>> every pretend “human right” that Israelies will not give to
>> Palestinians.

> Ah, the old Isreal does it, too, gambit. Please name a Palestinian
>citizen of Israel who has been deprived of their rights. Go ahead. Make an ass
>of yourself.

Those whose homes were destroyed because a family member was accused
(or in some extreme cases even convicted) of terrorism. That is
punishing the innocent. That is called state sponsored terrorism,
corruption of blood at best. But even corruption of blood required a
conviction whereas what Israel does, does not.

But then you did support the destruction of the home of OJ’s mother
after he was arrested.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:50 PDT 1996
Article: 58260 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:53:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 18 Aug 1996 02:35:34 GMT, [email protected]@ (Big Kahuna) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> The Jews were here last. The development of writing occurred over
>>a long period of time, with the last great contribution coming from
>>the Phoenicians.
>>

>Any desparate attempt to try to downplay Jewish contributions, I see.

>As feeble as always.

>> The Meso-Americans left a great history of art, as did the
>>Phoenicians and everyone else. Everyone but the Jews. They had to have
>>the same build their temple. They had no skills or culture.

>Prove it.

>Or get the real facts dumped in your inbound.

>>
>> The Phoenicians and the Hebrews lived next to each other. They
>>were two entirely two different cultures.

>Wadda Marroon.

Wadda cartoon rabbit.

>Prove it.

>Demonstrate your time machine.

>>
>> History books and history art books might have twenty of thirty
>>pages on various societies, but when it comes to the Hebrews, maybe
>>one page.

>Where do you want the evidence that your an idiot delivered?

>Your current address – or via POSTMASTER?
> >
>> Any boats the Hebrews ever had, they had to have the Phoenicians
>>build them for them. If anyone ever got to the Americas from the
>>Mediterranean it would have been the Phoenicians, and the Hebrews
>>would have been the least likely.

>Prove it.
>>
>> The only thing the Jews have, is chutzpa. The non-reality.
>>
>Prove it.

>>>Now we know what happened to the lost tribes!
>>>
>>>They became “Native Americans”!
>>>
>>>Which means that this land is part of Israel and belongs to da Joos!
>>
>>>ZOG must be informed immediately!
>>>
>>>Wadda marroon!
>>
>>
>> What we have witnessed here is the Hebrew ego at work under the
>>guise of being witty. In the end, only wishful thinking out loud.
>>

>What you’ve witnessed is sarcasm.

>You are a total asshole.

>And that’s your best quality.

>> The Jews despise other peoples cultures. I have never met a Jew
>>yet who didn’t just scoff if you raise a discussion about the arts and
>>attainments of other cultures.

>Prove it.

>Refuse to prove your contentions and I’ll be authorised – by you – to state that
>you admitted that all you do is distort and forge statements.

>A bot will take care of that quite nicely.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 58261 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1) – kr2a.jpg (1/1)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:04:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 1278
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 12:09:03 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

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end

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:55 PDT 1996
Article: 58269 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: mn.politics,alt.anything,alt.skinheads,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.c
Subject: Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous Zgrams
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:41:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:20:56 GMT, [email protected] (Ursus Major)
wrote:

>Ira wrote:

>>[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>—
>>
>> Yup, she is a bitch and and filth. Then again all germans are filth.
>>
>> Ira
>>
>J.S. Bach * W.A. Mozart * Emmanual Kant * Leibnitz * Robert Schumann *
>Friedrich Nietzsche * Oswald Spengler * Max Plank * K.F. Gauss * all
>the Strausses * W. Roentgen * F.v.Schiller * Gustav Klimt * Beethoven
>* Thomas & Heinrich Mann * Johannes Brahms * R. Wagner * Husserl * D.
>Bonhoeffer * Meister Eckhardt * A. Duerer * M. Gruenewald * H. Holbein
>* W.v.Braun * Carl Orff * W. Busch * W. Heisenberg * W. Gropius * FJ
>Haydn * Schubert * Goethe * Konrad Lorenz * Karl Jung * Wilhelm Tell *
>ETA Hoffmann * Peter Behrens * T. Billroth * H. Schuetz * F.v.Hayek *
>L. Riefenstahl * Max Mueller * O. Daimler-K. Benz * G. Hauptmann * E.
>Rommel * K. Barth * M. Niemueller * Albertus Magnus * Hroswitha * The
>Grimm Bros. * Messier * A. Schweitzer * F. Duerrenmatt * Lessing * M.
>Heidigger * Hegel * A. Schopenhauer * Max Weber * Otto Hahn *

>…. merely the tip of the iceberg, you revolting cretin!

To get to the iceberg, Wiesel, Wiesenthal, Golda Meyer despite her
spelling and pronunciation along with most of the founders and
“fathers” of Israel. And if they were not “German” then just what
were they? The best of Israel is if German origin.

Perhaps that explains their treatment of Palestinians.

I do not notice Einstein in that list, Martin Luther else Rome is
right, a fellow name Gutenberg without whom we would not be here, in
the US Steinmetz (AC electricity).

But then an inclusive list would take forever and if it were honest
the absurdity of the claim would be obvious.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:56 PDT 1996
Article: 58271 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!engineer.mrg.uswest.com!news.advtech.uswest.com!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1) – kr3a.jpg (1/1)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:03:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]>
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On 19 Aug 1996 00:05:44 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, The Generalissimo
>> wrote:

>>> Thank you sara. This makes great sense to me. However you were wrong
>>> about the responses I got!!!! Wow most people I was answered by were
>>> calling me names and saying things like, “It was exclusively jews, Get
>>> lost racist”.
>>
>>I’m truly sorry to hear that.

>I’m sorry to hear that too;

>so are the people now sitting in German jail or who have spent time in
>jail for having so much as doubted the Holy Hollowcause,

>along with numerous German soldiers tried and executed in kangaroo courts
>for bogus crimes,

>as well as professors and professionals fired for in insisting on the
>freedom of historical inquiry,

>as well as several geriatric former German soldier hounded to the ends of
>the earth by frenzied and rabid jews screaming for their blood,

>– all based on a Lie.
>
>>You must understand, however, that this is an extremely emotional issue
>to
>>many poeple (and _I_ admit I can be one of them sometimes!).

>Gee do ya think emotion has at all clouded the reasoning of the
>holohuggers (assuming they had reasoning capacity to begin with),
>rendering them incapable of tolerating disbelief to their orthodoxy?

>>There are many of us who have lost relatives in the Holocaust, and there
>>are many “revisionists” who have mocked those deaths.

>Or rather, many who have been so imprudent as to demand -real- evidence
>for those deaths which holohuggers have repeatedly failed to produce,
>despite the substantial guilt-money they have extorted for their fish
>tale.
>
>>Matt Giwer, for instance, insists that you “cannot mourn something you
>>never had” (or words to that effect). He has “informed” us that we have a
>>problem because we mourn the deaths of relations we did not personally
>>know.

>You may know of a relative “killed in Europe during WWII” — but who
>doesn’t? Your burden is to prove the Holohoax -happened-, that the gas
>chambers existed and functioned, that the Reich had a plan to deliberately
>exterminate jews and that they in fact did it. The positive evidence for
>your Holohoax theory on the whole is at best threadbare and contradicts
>the overwhelming weight of the evidence which points to an entirely
>different conclusion — labor camps, not death camps.
>
>>There are a lot of trolls here who enjoy saying things like, “Hitler
>>didn’t do a good enough job.” There are a lot of Jew-haters here.

>but far more are those whom the holohuggers have reflexively labelled “jew
>haters” for heresy in questioning the Holy Hoax.
>
>>And there are some people who ask reasonable questions in a reasonable
>>way. I try, whenever possible, to respond to those reasonable people —
>IN
>>PUBLIC — so that they won’t be afraid to continue discussions.

>Holohuggers can speak in public because they aren’t in danger of reprisal,
>harrassment, or imprisonment for their belief. Gee, how brave of you
>holohuggers to speak in public. You guys are regular Ernst Zundels.
>
>>I’ve also received my share of hate e-mail, believe me. I throw it all
>>away, and refuse to debate ANYONE via e-mail. If people want to discuss
>>these issues, we can ALL do it by the light of day, in public.

>Although the revisionist who speaks out publicly can stand to lose his
>job, unlike the holohugger, at least in the U.S. -legally- he can still
>openly express doubt about the Holohoax. These people are the epitome of
>tolerance ain’t they?

>>Again, I am sorry you received some unpleasant mail. It does happen.
>>Believe it or not, there are lots of people — on BOTH sides of this
>issue
>>– who can be jerks at times.

>A holohugger unpleasant?
>
>>If you have other questions, please post them here.

>ok
>
>>Sara

>my first question: why are holohuggers are so irrational

Because they are holohuggers of course. They have a belief and
therefore everything must support the belief.

Consider for the moment that I have driven off of this discussion any
and all consideration that there was any Promised Land or any Moses
for that matter. It was quite common before I attacked the fantasy.

Of course now the holohuggers claim they were never here and in fact
deny they ever made the ridiculous claim if you ask them.

What I will do will not be singlehanded again. I need the help of
others who know how stupid this gassing claim is.

The worst I have against me is that I took over this conference
(posted by one, emailed by another showing colusion) as an accusation
but the accusation is that I made is a forum for shooting down the
absurdities and the impossibles the holohuggers believe implicitely.

And now we find that McVay is only personally listed on the DOD
server.

So what is the point of all of this? That we must support the
destruction of the homes of the families of the suspects in Israeli
occupied territorry?

They gassed me six times but I got better supports such barbaric
treatement of Palestinian families and their homes?

Fuck Israel and Jews and the horse they rode in on.

That is not civilized behavior in any manner in this universe and this
century. But anyone claiming that is is needs to defend it.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 17:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 39780 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:09:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:469 alt.politics.white-power:39780

On 16 Aug 1996 09:06:04 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>comments on a very silly troll:

> “A revionist will never call you a name
> for questioning what they post.”

>>Any fatbroads around to answer?

>Actually, in Giwerundean, this means “we don’t need a reason
>to call you a name, and never wait for one.”

>But then, you knew that.

>”Someone pass the word to this slimey bastard mongoloid to stop
>harrassing my parents.” ([email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:28 PDT)

>(See what I mean?)

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
>URL https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
>URL https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>URL https://nizkor.org/encouragements/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s special
>newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
>ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
>redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
>an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>–
>Nizkor Canada | https://nizkor.org
>———————–| Remember John Hron
> |————————————–
> https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 21:10:06 PDT 1996
Article: 58302 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ausrotten
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:26:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Were is possible to condemn a politician and an entire political party
for the use of one word of multiple meaning then the entire world
could be cleansed of the entire species Home Politiciansus over night.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 21:10:07 PDT 1996
Article: 58310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:25:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 12:29:28 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:48:36 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>The Generalissimo wrote:

>>Gord McFee wrote:
>>>
>>> In message <[email protected]> – [email protected]
>>> (Ehrlich606)12 Aug 1996 20:06:39 -0400 writes:
>>> :>
>>> :>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>>> :>McFee) writes:
>>> :>
>>> :>>:>>
>>> :>>Now, now Mr. Ehrlich, could you tell me what discipline Thucydides was
>>> :>>trained
>>> :>>in? 🙂
>>>
>>> Don’t I get an answer to this one? 🙂
>>>
>>> :>>Hilberg’s figures are not ignored, at least not my most rational people.
>>> :>>
>>> :>>But, just for the fun of it, let’s say that the estimates are wrong and
>>> :>the
>>> :>>real number killed was only 3.5 million. Does that mitigate the crime at
>>> :>>all?
>>> :>>
>>>
>>> :>Well, it doesn’t mitigate the crime _to me_, but I have no problem with
>>> :>the six million figure because I think that the conditions of the war,
>>> :>epidemics, maltreatment or at minimum not generous treatment, loss of a
>>> :>will to live after losing all one owns, plus one’s family, and being
>>> :>reduced to a number, war casualties, reprisal casualties, partisan
>>> :>casualties, mass killing casualties, and last but not least, Soviet
>>> :>deportations both before June 21, 1941 and for some years after, could
>>> :>easily amount to about six million.
>>>
>>> Am I finally understanding you, Mr. Ehrlich? I note that in the above list,
>>> shooting and gassing are not mentioned explicitly, although you may be
>>> referring to them elliptically. Could I ask what you mean by the “conditions
>>> of the war”? Could I ask what you mean by “maltreatment”? Could I ask what
>>> you mean by “mass killing casualties”?
>>>
>>> One interpretation of your post could be that you don’t accept that there was
>>> a planned attempt by the Nazi Germans to exterminate European Jewry. Is that
>>> your position?
>>>
>>> :>I think that overstressing the *death factory* imagery does a disservice
>>> :>to a very very complicated process. I also think that the Final Solution
>>> :>was born with one leg in reality and one leg in wartime propaganda. And I
>>> :>don’t think we’re done sorting that out. That and 59 cents gets me a cup
>>> :>of coffee.
>>>
>>> I think that denying the planned extermination of European Jewry does an even
>>> greater disservice to those who were murdered. Would you agree?
>>>
>>> Posted and e-mailed.
>>>
>>> —
>>> Gord McFee
>>> I’ll write no line before its time
>>
>>Being in this ng for the first time, (that I read here. I see some of my posts have been
>>crossposted and imported here) I have one question. Since at least as many, and perhaps
>>many many more non-jews, were killed in the camps as jews, how does this equal the
>>”planned extermination of european jewery”? It seems that it would the planned
>>extermination of all others than nazis. Further, why do jews claim this “title” when
>>they were a minority of the people killed? Now so you rash people do not get too
>>insensed please note these are real questions.
>>

> Out of 12 million non-combatants murdered by the Germans for racial
>and other reasons, around 6 million of those are Jews. I don’t see
>much of a minority in that figure.

>The extermination plans as they pertain to the Jews have been
>documented here and are documented on Nizkor. Visit the site.

>We do not need such a trail of stuff as a signiture in this
>conference.

Out of the 31 million who disappeared without a trace it is unclear
how any but the fanciful can ascribe any particular number of either 6
or 12 million to this particular cause.

As will all holohugger numbers, purely fanciful.

From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 21:10:08 PDT 1996
Article: 58317 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.stealth.net!demos!news1.relcom.ru!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:55:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:58:33 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Aug 1996 13:13:46 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:43:55 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>> wrote:

>
>> >You can’t handle basic arithmetic, yet you pretend
>> >to understand higher mathematics.

>> We are all still awaiting you to post your first numeric analysis of
>> anything having to do with the gassing.
>
>> You can not or you will not because the results are against gassing.
>
> [Giwer’s deliberate invasion of another person’s privacy deleted]

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

And now reposted as he deliberately chose to make public, asshole.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 58318 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:02:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 4:05:43 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 18 Aug 1996 16:03:40 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 15 Aug 96 07:16:50, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>
>>><*[*] [*] [Matt Giwer
>>><+[Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]] [Wed 14 Aug 96 >>>05:50][Thu 15 Aug 96 01:33][0]*>
>>
>>
>>> >> The only problem with this theory is that there were two
>>> >> underground rooms in Kremas II and III which were called
>>> >> Leichenkellers (morgues). Yet only one of those rooms in each
>>> >> building was fitted with a gas-tight door. Therefore the
>>> >> bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and rats would
>>> >> be able to eat to their hearts’ content.
>>
>>> MG> There is no evidence o separate fumigation.
>>
>>> MG> If you are truly claiming there was a room within the LK that
>>> MG> was the one used, that were were partitions within it, then you
>>> MG> have created a new order of impossible much like finding orders
>>> MG> of infinity. They were impossible enough numbers when the
>>> MG> entire LK was used for gassing. But your claim has produced and
>>> MG> “aleph sub 1” order of impossibility.
>>
>>>Egads but you’re not reading, Matt.
>>
>>>1. That there were 2 rooms is obvious.
>>
>> For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
>>inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was “gas
>>tight.”

> That is the gas chamber of Krema II (and its twin, Krema III).

Buzzer there. K III is identified on Nizkor as being the undresseing
room for the gassing vice the LK or I and II.

You bit the hard one on that.

Good luck in the next round.

>>Why the sudden change? This went all through the discussion
>>regarding it having more characteristics of a bomb shelter than a gas
>>chamber.
>>
>> Now, out of no where and for no reason, a different description is
>>being brought up.

> No. We are merely discussing the _other_ underground room in Krema II
>(and its twin, Krema III), the undressing room.

Post the drawings of the “other” underground room when you get the
lying chance.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:51 PDT 1996
Article: 58319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I am still waiting
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:07:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 3:10:55 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

When is the FBI going to show up now that so many of you have been
contacted by them for records and evidence? Maybe they are too busy
doing something else perhaps?

I really am disappointed for failing to meet these junior G-men.

Can any of you folks spur them on?

They are taking way too much time completing their investigation.

If you do not help them out it will give them a bad reputation.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:52 PDT 1996
Article: 58328 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:34:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 3:37:41 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:20:23 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, The Generalissimo
> wrote:

>> Thank you sara. This makes great sense to me. However you were wrong
>> about the responses I got!!!! Wow most people I was answered by were
>> calling me names and saying things like, “It was exclusively jews, Get
>> lost racist”.
>
>I’m truly sorry to hear that.
>
>You must understand, however, that this is an extremely emotional issue to
>many poeple (and _I_ admit I can be one of them sometimes!).
>
>There are many of us who have lost relatives in the Holocaust, and there
>are many “revisionists” who have mocked those deaths.
>
>Matt Giwer, for instance, insists that you “cannot mourn something you
>never had” (or words to that effect). He has “informed” us that we have a
>problem because we mourn the deaths of relations we did not personally
>know.

I pointed out that you are absolute idiots for doing so.

Do you have a problem with that?

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:53 PDT 1996
Article: 58334 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:07:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 9:11:00 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:54:44 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I admit only that you would mail me a huge amount of crap that you
>> have never read and would not satisfy the requirements of physical
>> evidence.
>>

>It satisfies the requirements of physical evidence and I have read it.

>Claiming otherwise is an accusation of lying and a challenge to deliver
>the goods.

>How big should I make the individual messages, Matt? My system normally
>makes packets of 1-2 Megabytes each.

Post it publically in this newsgroup so everyone can read it.

>> BTW: I was sent the best 1.44 Meg of it two years ago.
>>

>IOW – No evidence, but you have 1.44 Meg of it?

No physical evidence presented as you know.

>> >Yet you clame that it does not exist.
>>
>> >Tell you what – why don’t I accept your claim as a challenge to Email
>> >the data to you?
>>
>> Why do you refuse to post it in public?
>>

>Not before you get it in Email.

Then forget it. Keep it to yourself and continue to claim you have
it.

>> >It’ll have to wait until next week, however. The T1 is OK, but the T2
>> >that was the WAN link is choking at 400K bytes/second, so the T1 is
>> >being used as a backup. We’ll retune this weekend.
>>
>> A T2 is choking on what a T1 can’t notice?

>I didn’t notice this show of ignorance on your part the first time.

>A T1 has a bandwidth of 1.5 megabits/second or under 200Kbytes per
>second.

>A T2 has a bandwidth of 6 megabits per second or 750Kbytes per second.

>A mistuned T2 that delivers less than expected when we have an expanded
>need for 450-500 Kbytes per second means that the T1 had to take up the
>slack.

>Anyone with any knowhow would have been able to figure that one out.

Anyone who thinks a T2 can be “mistuned” has even worse problems.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:54 PDT 1996
Article: 58337 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.inet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 235 copies received from gryn.org
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:33:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 8:37:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:54 PDT 1996
Article: 58339 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:30:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 3:33:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Aug 96 13:48:03, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: Holocaust revisionism] [Saturday August 17 1996 03:19][*][0]*>

> >> You already admitted to the existence of that evidence.

> >> Please try to be consistent while you’re being wrong.

> MG> You must have me confused with someone else. I have said no
> MG> such thing.

>Tell you what! I’ll repost the message where you said just that and
>I’ll send you the evidence that you admit to by claiming that it’s a
>malibomb’s worth.

>Just ask for it, Matt.

>You’ll get it!

Until you are willing to act like a professional here, I will only
respond to you when it suits my puposes not your.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:55 PDT 1996
Article: 58354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen/Einsatzkommandos
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:54:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 2:57:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:25:52 GMT, [email protected] (Serdar
Yegulalp) wrote:

>[email protected] sez:

>>They are not ignored. We are waiting for confirmation of the alleged number of the victims given in the
>>reports, as well as forensic evidence: to wit, where are the mass graves? As in Katyn, we would like to see
>>connfirmation of the dead at Babi Yar, Riga, and Minsk….Please do not quote written reports…

>”Please use evidence to back up your claims.

>”Evidence cannot consist of any of the following:

>”Photos

Photos with a logged chain of custody as in any trial are admissable.
There are none.

>”Diaries

When the person who created them testifies as to their veracity or
they refer to sufficient corraborating physical evidence.

>”Sworn testimony

When in fact the person personally appears and swears and is
crossexamined rather than the usual IMT typed material of an unsigned,
unknown person.

>”Corroborated testimony

If they corroborate the details in most all respects under
crossexamination without collusion meaning that the witnesses never
met prior to the testimony.

>”Official reports, written or oral

Only when they can be rigorously traced back to the originator and
then only if they support physical evidence.

>”Forensic studies.”

Forensic studies meaning finding the remains of the dead to prove
there was a crime in the first place and then showing they were
gassed.

>So what’s left?

All of the above if you can find any.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:56 PDT 1996
Article: 58362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:16:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 3:20:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 15:16:21 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
Schneider) wrote:

>Matt Giwer does a great job in producing mistakes:
>>
>>Were is possible to condemn a politician and an entire political party
>>for the use of one word of multiple meaning then the entire world
>>could be cleansed of the entire species Home Politiciansus over night.

>It’s rare to see such a lot of mistakes in such a short message.
>1.) The word ‘ausrotten’ has no multiple meaning at all.
>2.) He wanted to write ‘Were *it* possible
>3.) There is no such species, especially none calle ‘home’.
>4.) If there were, the name were Homo politicus
>5.) There is no sense in all that to be found after the mistakes are
> corrected.
>–
> *[email protected]*

Yes, you are very stupid.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:57 PDT 1996
Article: 58363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israelis Butcher Palestinians (for Alec G)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:42:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 3:46:39 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:51:27 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) writes:

>[Alleged eyewitness testimonies to Israeli Army actions
>in Lebanon]

>Let’s see. Whatever testimony to the Holocaust is
>presented to nazi-boy Kurt, he automatically dismisses
>it, saying that “Jewish money can buy everything,
>including testimonies” etc.

>So here we have an anti-Israeli testimony. Now, the
>Arabs have God knows how many billions of dollars,
>oil money.

>Why doesn’t nazi-boy Kurt apply his “reasoning” to
>dismiss such testimonies as having been obtained
>with the help of Arab money? He should show some
>consistency, no?

>But then again, nazi-boy Kurt also claims that the
>German soldiers would die if they applied cyanide
>gas in the Birkenau gas chambers; however, even his
>fuehrers admit the gas was used in them, as the
>cyanide compounds on the walls prove.

>So maybe consistency is not among Kurt’s strong points?

>-Danny Keren.

> —-
>For a summary of the “revisionist” position, look at what
>Nazi propagandist and “revisionist”, Kurt Stele, wrote:

> From: [email protected] (Kurt Stele)
> Message-Id: <[email protected]>

># The Holocaust is a funny thing..
># When you hear about it, you wish it never happened..
># When you discover it’s a hoax ya kind of wish it did!
># Kurt Stele

You appear to have a problem with the Moslem, Christian and Jewish
citizens of Israel are criticized for plain and simple murder. Why is
that?

Qana was murder as all of the evidence on the ground shows including
the first report and then the UN finding.

Do you have a problem with that?

It is those damned racist bigots of all three religions that committed
the murder at Qana.

Do you have a problem with that?

Israel is a murderous racist state. What is your problem with that?
It is independent of religion or belief. The three major religions
are in it together under the guise of Israel.

It is a matter of time before they are eaten alive, most likely in
2002 when the Medicare crunch comes, and any penny sent abroad is
cause for lynching.

Here are two things to remember.

1) Medicare must be corrected in the next two years.

2) New York must vote Republican for this to happen.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:58 PDT 1996
Article: 58374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 235 copies from gryn.org
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:33:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 271
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
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From: [email protected] (Spankmeister)
Date: 19 Aug 96 21:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Original message:


Date: Sat Aug 17 ’96, 06:07:44
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
@Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 98
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References:
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Sat Aug 17 3:10:54 AM PDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:29:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Therefore they transported people from France and Greece
># and Italy to gas them in Poland.

>A relatively small number; most victims were Poles,
>or Soviet Jews murdered close to where they lived.

75,000 from france is relatively small and for no purpose whatsover.

># Stupid shit.

>You don’t have to use such words just because this is
>what you learned at home.

You re the math wizard who has never posted a calculation.

># Today military ball 9mm rounds cost 11 cents each. For
># 6 million dead from ALL causes that is $660,000 dollars.

>Bullets are necessary items during the war. Why waste
>them if you can kill the people with Zyklon?

Why waste the cost of transportation when those same trains can be
used to transport war materiel to the front? Wasting the trains on
people just to kill them in Poland was contrary to the war effort,
despite the cost.

And then, as any room will do for killing people, why not use a room
in France? Remember the “farmstead” that was first used at Auschwitz
for gassing? Are you saying that France, Italy and Greece had no
suitable “farmsteads”?

If you insist upon gas instead of bullets, there is still not need to
ship anyone any place. Any old farmstead will do. Or do you disagree
with the Auschwitz FAQ that Nizkor carries? If so, what is your
disagreement with it in this regard?

The rock is shipping them to gas them to save bullets.

The hard place is not gassing them in place.

You are invited to invent a way out of the middle.

># Not by any rational calculation but let me see your
># calculations for the amount needed to kill in 10-15 minutes.

>For the largest gas chambers? 4 Kg would definitely
>be enough. What is your figure?

I am interested in seeing your calculations. But we both know you
have done none. So why do you make it up?

># The gas chambers were discovered in the last five years.

>This is such an insane and stupid comment that there’s
>no use reading this anymore. They were found immediately
>after the war. You’re simply out of your mind.

Quite nonsensical. Not one document known in the 1940s refers to
them. Nothing Hoess or Gerstein says mentions them. Nothing at the
IMT mentions them.

>You’ve been a bad boy, and the .sig returns.

And I respond with a secret identity.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


| Fidonet: Spankmeister 1:12/98
| Internet: [email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:25:59 PDT 1996
Article: 58375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: correction, kinky Alec sent it 240 times
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:44:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 273
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 8:48:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Do you think he is gay also?

Return-Path:
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Received: from RYKER (gryn.org [206.231.240.146]) by io.org
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Received: by RYKER; 20 Aug 96 02:19:32
From: [email protected] (Spankmeister)
Date: 19 Aug 96 21:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Original message:


Date: Sat Aug 17 ’96, 06:07:44
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
@Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 98
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References:
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Sat Aug 17 3:10:54 AM PDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:29:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Therefore they transported people from France and Greece
># and Italy to gas them in Poland.

>A relatively small number; most victims were Poles,
>or Soviet Jews murdered close to where they lived.

75,000 from france is relatively small and for no purpose whatsover.

># Stupid shit.

>You don’t have to use such words just because this is
>what you learned at home.

You re the math wizard who has never posted a calculation.

># Today military ball 9mm rounds cost 11 cents each. For
># 6 million dead from ALL causes that is $660,000 dollars.

>Bullets are necessary items during the war. Why waste
>them if you can kill the people with Zyklon?

Why waste the cost of transportation when those same trains can be
used to transport war materiel to the front? Wasting the trains on
people just to kill them in Poland was contrary to the war effort,
despite the cost.

And then, as any room will do for killing people, why not use a room
in France? Remember the “farmstead” that was first used at Auschwitz
for gassing? Are you saying that France, Italy and Greece had no
suitable “farmsteads”?

If you insist upon gas instead of bullets, there is still not need to
ship anyone any place. Any old farmstead will do. Or do you disagree
with the Auschwitz FAQ that Nizkor carries? If so, what is your
disagreement with it in this regard?

The rock is shipping them to gas them to save bullets.

The hard place is not gassing them in place.

You are invited to invent a way out of the middle.

># Not by any rational calculation but let me see your
># calculations for the amount needed to kill in 10-15 minutes.

>For the largest gas chambers? 4 Kg would definitely
>be enough. What is your figure?

I am interested in seeing your calculations. But we both know you
have done none. So why do you make it up?

># The gas chambers were discovered in the last five years.

>This is such an insane and stupid comment that there’s
>no use reading this anymore. They were found immediately
>after the war. You’re simply out of your mind.

Quite nonsensical. Not one document known in the 1940s refers to
them. Nothing Hoess or Gerstein says mentions them. Nothing at the
IMT mentions them.

>You’ve been a bad boy, and the .sig returns.

And I respond with a secret identity.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


| Fidonet: Spankmeister 1:12/98
| Internet: [email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:00 PDT 1996
Article: 58376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:02:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 9:05:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:25:56 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>>In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>>> >In article , [email protected] (Ole
>>>> >Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> Hey, where in the …. is Ostland?
>>>
>>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East.
>>>
>>>>…It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.
>>>
>>>Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
>>>even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
>>>rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
>>>history, on the peoples who lived there.
>>>
>>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
>>>least of whom’s victims were several million Jews.
>>>
>>So Ostland was like “Westland” to the Americans 200 years ago – A place to
>>conquor and settle. A lot of Red Indians were deported from the east to
>>US “Westland”. Oklohoma started out as such dumping ground for Red Indians.
>>One of those events of Red Indians being deported is called something like
>>the long march of tears. Have you Americans forgotten about that? Is the
>>reason that you Americans are so busy remembering German history that you
>>hope German atrocities may overshadow your own which thus may be forgotten?
>>–

>Ole is now so trapped that he resorts to this old saw. Well, Ole, find
>me a government document stating a State policy to exterminate the
>Indians.

We have all been looking for some Nazi government document indicating
a state policy of extermination for years.

In both policies we have a clear policy camps / ghettos /
reservations. We have the march from Auschwitz and the March of Tears
(?). In both cases we have a clear policy of deception promising
food, clothing and housing and very little delivered. We even have
incidents of clearly planned slaughter.

And in neither case do we have a government document of a policy of
extermination.

Yes, there are many similarities.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:01 PDT 1996
Article: 58380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kinky Alec. Make that 256 times.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:54:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 287
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 8:58:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Should I post them all here as evidence? I would not wish anyone to
doubt me. Of course only 25 or so at a time so the bot of the self
righteous guardian of usenet will not be excited of course.

What got you so pissed Alec? Can’t deal with the truth being posted?

Why are you so afraid of it?

But perhaps it is not you. Rather some idiot whom you have given
access.

Are you willing to admit either that it is you are to give the name of
the person who sent all of thes? Or do you approve?

Return-Path:
Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by ixmail1.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id SAA06231; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from RYKER (gryn.org [206.231.240.146]) by io.org
(8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA02009 for ; Mon,
19 Aug 1996 21:20:02 -0400
Received: by RYKER; 20 Aug 96 02:19:32
From: [email protected] (Spankmeister)
Date: 19 Aug 96 21:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Original message:


Date: Sat Aug 17 ’96, 06:07:44
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
@Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 98
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References:
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Sat Aug 17 3:10:54 AM PDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:29:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Therefore they transported people from France and Greece
># and Italy to gas them in Poland.

>A relatively small number; most victims were Poles,
>or Soviet Jews murdered close to where they lived.

75,000 from france is relatively small and for no purpose whatsover.

># Stupid shit.

>You don’t have to use such words just because this is
>what you learned at home.

You re the math wizard who has never posted a calculation.

># Today military ball 9mm rounds cost 11 cents each. For
># 6 million dead from ALL causes that is $660,000 dollars.

>Bullets are necessary items during the war. Why waste
>them if you can kill the people with Zyklon?

Why waste the cost of transportation when those same trains can be
used to transport war materiel to the front? Wasting the trains on
people just to kill them in Poland was contrary to the war effort,
despite the cost.

And then, as any room will do for killing people, why not use a room
in France? Remember the “farmstead” that was first used at Auschwitz
for gassing? Are you saying that France, Italy and Greece had no
suitable “farmsteads”?

If you insist upon gas instead of bullets, there is still not need to
ship anyone any place. Any old farmstead will do. Or do you disagree
with the Auschwitz FAQ that Nizkor carries? If so, what is your
disagreement with it in this regard?

The rock is shipping them to gas them to save bullets.

The hard place is not gassing them in place.

You are invited to invent a way out of the middle.

># Not by any rational calculation but let me see your
># calculations for the amount needed to kill in 10-15 minutes.

>For the largest gas chambers? 4 Kg would definitely
>be enough. What is your figure?

I am interested in seeing your calculations. But we both know you
have done none. So why do you make it up?

># The gas chambers were discovered in the last five years.

>This is such an insane and stupid comment that there’s
>no use reading this anymore. They were found immediately
>after the war. You’re simply out of your mind.

Quite nonsensical. Not one document known in the 1940s refers to
them. Nothing Hoess or Gerstein says mentions them. Nothing at the
IMT mentions them.

>You’ve been a bad boy, and the .sig returns.

And I respond with a secret identity.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


| Fidonet: Spankmeister 1:12/98
| Internet: [email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:02 PDT 1996
Article: 58394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: mn.politics,alt.anything,alt.skinheads,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.c
Subject: Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous Zgrams
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:24:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 4:28:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:35179 alt.society.conservatism:50075 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83221 alt.politics.nationalism.white:27558 alt.revisionism:58394 alt.politics.white-power:40085 soc.culture.usa:91137 alt.conspiracy:79529 talk.politics.misc:435646

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:27:32 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:20:56 GMT, [email protected] (Ursus Major)
>>wrote:

>>>Ira wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>>>—
>>>>
>>>> Yup, she is a bitch and and filth. Then again all germans are filth.
>>>>
>>>> Ira
>>>>
>>>J.S. Bach * W.A. Mozart * Emmanual Kant * Leibnitz * Robert Schumann *
>>>Friedrich Nietzsche * Oswald Spengler * Max Plank * K.F. Gauss * all
>>>the Strausses * W. Roentgen * F.v.Schiller * Gustav Klimt * Beethoven
>>>* Thomas & Heinrich Mann * Johannes Brahms * R. Wagner * Husserl * D.
>>>Bonhoeffer * Meister Eckhardt * A. Duerer * M. Gruenewald * H. Holbein
>>>* W.v.Braun * Carl Orff * W. Busch * W. Heisenberg * W. Gropius * FJ
>>>Haydn * Schubert * Goethe * Konrad Lorenz * Karl Jung * Wilhelm Tell *
>>>ETA Hoffmann * Peter Behrens * T. Billroth * H. Schuetz * F.v.Hayek *
>>>L. Riefenstahl * Max Mueller * O. Daimler-K. Benz * G. Hauptmann * E.
>>>Rommel * K. Barth * M. Niemueller * Albertus Magnus * Hroswitha * The
>>>Grimm Bros. * Messier * A. Schweitzer * F. Duerrenmatt * Lessing * M.
>>>Heidigger * Hegel * A. Schopenhauer * Max Weber * Otto Hahn *

>>>…. merely the tip of the iceberg, you revolting cretin!

>> To get to the iceberg, Wiesel, Wiesenthal, Golda Meyer despite her
>>spelling and pronunciation along with most of the founders and
>>”fathers” of Israel. And if they were not “German” then just what
>>were they? The best of Israel is if German origin.

>Wiesel was born in Transylvanian Romania, Wiesenthal may have been
>German by birth, but Meir was born in Ukraine and raised in America.

>They were Semites all–Askenazic Jews and NOT Germans.

Sorry about that. They had clearly German names and by the methods of
the time were German. That part of the Ukraine was German only a war
or two previously. Wiesel is a native German name not a Romanian
name. Sorry again. By the rules of the time, he was German as was
Wiesenthal.

Sorry about that but they are German. The best Germany has to offer.
Ask the survivors of Qana.

>> Perhaps that explains their treatment of Palestinians.

>You mean to imply that all Germans are genocidal?

You can have it one way or the other but not both.

There were some non-german natives of Palestine who helped found
Israel but they were clear murders such as Begin. What is your
problem with this? How many names of murdering terrorists do you
want?

>> I do not notice Einstein in that list, Martin Luther else Rome is
>>right, a fellow name Gutenberg without whom we would not be here, in
>>the US Steinmetz (AC electricity).

>Einstein was deported from Germany

In what year?

>and died an American citizen and
>was a Jew.

And of course his idiot belief in a god led him to waste the last 40
years of his life. But then, he did come up with a couple interesting
things.

>Luther was an antisemite pig.

Excuse me but are you condemning every non-Catholic Christian with
that statement?

>Gutenberg was a century or two after the Chinese on moveable type.

He made it work while the Chinese use of it is a matter for
historians.

>> But then an inclusive list would take forever and if it were honest
>>the absurdity of the claim would be obvious.

>Of course.

And it is despite your obfuscation of it.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:02 PDT 1996
Article: 58396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!zdc-e!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:03:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 9:06:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:18:25 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:

>> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>> >Kreiberg) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article , Mark Van
>Alstine wrote:
>> >> >In article , [email protected] (Ole
>> >> >Kreiberg) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> Hey, where in the …. is Ostland?
>> >
>> >The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East.
>> >
>> >>…It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.
>> >
>> >Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
>> >even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
>> >rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
>> >history, on the peoples who lived there.
>> >
>> >The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
>> >least of whom’s victims were several million Jews.
>> >
>> So Ostland was like “Westland” to the Americans 200 years ago – A place to
>> conquor and settle. A lot of Red Indians were deported from the east to
>> US “Westland”. Oklohoma started out as such dumping ground for Red Indians.
>> One of those events of Red Indians being deported is called something like
>> the long march of tears. Have you Americans forgotten about that? Is the
>> reason that you Americans are so busy remembering German history that you
>> hope German atrocities may overshadow your own which thus may be forgotten?

>And what has this to do with the Holocaust, Mr. Kreiberg? Why nothing, of
>course! Obviously, when faced with the evidence that your racist Nazi
>heros were brutal mass murderers, you grasp at straws to attempt to
>deflect criticism away from them and to paint them in a more sympathetic
>light.

>That’s called Nazi apologia, Mr. Kreiberg. Ergo, you are also a Nazi apologist.

Yes, you sound like Geronimo.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:04 PDT 1996
Article: 58412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: curiouser and curiouser
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:31:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 377
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 9:35:14 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58412 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:358306 alt.politics.correct:128450 alt.politics.democrats.d:109923 alt.politics.usa.republican:258115 alt.politics.clinton:275729 alt.president.clinton:89172 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:39251 alt.current-events.usa:23488 talk.politics.misc:435694 alt.politics.usa.misc:102931 alt.politics.libertarian:198195 alt.politics.radical-left:112238 alt.politics.reform:89670 alt.politics.usa.congress:58524 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83244 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:74072 talk.politics.libertarian:113896

All 256 are not identical save in one feature, they contain the result
of a WHOIS query of milnet of kmcvay.

Lets see now, someone at gryn.org has threatened “This is just the
start, Matt” when the only thing in common is the result of the whois
query. And not of the internic information but of the milnet
information.

Why is that, folks? What is there about the milnet information that
draws such a response from a person completely unconnected with Nizkor
or kmcvay? Or is there some sort of connection?

What is the interest of someone at gryn.org in sending mail bombs
regarding the only common information of kmcvay’s DOD connection? Is
there some sort of connection with the DOD for the both of them?

And what is “nonsense” about what the DOD whois server contains?

If it is erroneous then someone should get the information corrected.

Or has is already been “corrected” as in deleted and is no longer
“true?” And if deleted, why?

That is it. It appears the mail bomb was sent to notify me that the
information had been deleted from nic.ddn.mil. Now it can be claimed
to be untrue even though I am not the only one to have looked it up
and know it was there. I am far from the only one who looked it up.

It is interesting to know that 1B Management Systems Limited still
exists. But why would gryn.org be the one to send the “message”? It
is all so “mafiosa-like.” Do I get a fish wrapped in newspaper next?
No, that is an after the fact message.

And why is it so important to hide that information? Why is it so
important to hide the Nizkor connection to the US DOD via kmcvay?
What is wrong with a person’s employment? The connection was likely
meaningless until tonight’s mail bomb.

Before the mailbomb it was just a matter of curiousity and would
certainly have corrected the “gas station jockey” image of kmcvay.
Now it appears to be something in need of hiding. Before, idle
speculation, after, intensive curiosity. What a fool thing to have
done.

And if it is not true, why does [email protected] still work?
Try it quick before it is changed. Just say “Hi!” and if you get a
response or not, note that your mail is not rejected as undeliverable.
Now why would a person be removed from the DOD whois list but still
have an account with the defense contractor?

What is the point of this bit of amateurishness? An obvious
suggestion is that the public record needs be hidden but it will take
a while for all of the business contacts to get the new email address
so that he can vanish completely from 1B Systems Management Limited.

What is going on here? and why?

Lets put it all together. I first hear of the information with the
suggestion of a CIA connection. Then someone at an org (gryn.org)
owned by a person who has at least claimed past intelligence
connections (Mossad) sends me a mail bomb as a clever way of telling
me the entry has been deleted from the DOD list.

I presume this will incite gryn.org to send another mail bomb which
will be duly reported here to keep the subject alive. You would think
people would be bright enough to know that if things are ignored they
die out quickly and no one pays attention. The way it is going, the
objective appears to be to keep this issue alive as long as possible.

After all, the mail bomb just gave it new life.

This gets curiouser and curiouser.

Is it any more interesting than this?

=====

Yin, Alec (AY42)
American Stock Exchange
86 Trinity Place
NY, NY 10006

(212) 306-8908

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

If so, why? Is anyone really surprised that the American Stock
Exchange works through the US DOD? It is a matter of national
security is it not?

===============

The full record.

===

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=================

Return-Path:
Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by inews1.ix.netcom.com
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Received: by RYKER; 20 Aug 96 02:23:32
From: [email protected] (Spankmeister)
Date: 19 Aug 96 21:08:52 -0500
Subject: Questions about Nizkor
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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Original message:


Date: Mon Aug 19 ’96, 06:10:48
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Questions about Nizkor

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Questions about Nizkor
@Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:10:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 49
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Mon Aug 19 3:14:19 AM PDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:21:09 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Yvelinec) writes:
>>> Can you tell me where the name Nizkor come from, when this project
started
>>> and who started it?
>>>
>>> Thank you for your help,
>>> Yveline
>>>
>>>>>>
>> The answer to your questions can be found at the following site:
>>
>> http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

>Or even better: https://nizkor.org both work.

So does this.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

It is all public information that HE CHOSE to made available. Sorry
about that.

Now what does a gas pump jockey have to do with the US DOD?


| Fidonet: Spankmeister 1:12/98
| Internet: [email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:05 PDT 1996
Article: 58415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!pipex-sa.net!iafrica.com!uct.ac.za!und.ac.za!peacenjoy.mikom.csir.co.za!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:28:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:32:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:18:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> And every time you did that you watched EVERYONE around you die from
>> the same. That is very interesting. When did this happen and how?

>In the mid-70’s. No gas mask and the room was not well ventilated.

Who is the mail bombing nutcase who has access to your org?

>And everyone around me did die. Since no one was around me that is a
>true statement.

>We have been over that bit of witnessing several times. You look for the
>discrepancies only and ignore how it might have happened.

>Did anyone query him as to details? Did anyone verify the times? Were
>there any cross-checks?

>No? Then what we have is an isolated situation where the memories of a
>person who was not yet 11 years of age were brought forward decades
>later and without context.

Who is the nutcase?

>You demand that this witness’s evidence be taken as the equivalent of
>the cross-checked and cross-verified evidence of thousands of witnesses
>closer to the time in question.

>One person states what is seemingly impossible if interpreted with
>excess exactitude. That is sufficiently erroneous in your eyes to negate
>all of the rest.

>Yet – it could have happened anyway. Perhaps it wasn’t gassing but was
>part of a series of experiments to determine capacities of the system.

>Perhaps it was any one of a dozen possibilities that come to mind and
>the memories of a terrified child are scrambled and fused after 40+
>years.

>This is your idea of scientific method?!?

No, it is the holohuggers idea. There was noever anything that you
suggest provided to support the foolish idea of gassing. But you know
that.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:06 PDT 1996
Article: 58416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:34:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 9:37:40 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83307 alt.revisionism:58416

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:26:02 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>
>>>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>>>have his manual? Oh, you’re lying again. I see.
>>
>> It is called an analogy, child. Gas someone and every bit of physical
>>evidence disappears.
>>

>Really. the body disappears? You mean the Germans didn’t have to
>cremate them after all?!! What’s your source for this?

My source is the holohuggers. They claim there is no physical
evidence to find. What other explantion for the lack of such physical
evidence, even of cremated remains by the thousands of tons?

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:07 PDT 1996
Article: 58418 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!spool.mu.edu!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:02:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 10:06:33 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83309 alt.revisionism:58418 talk.politics.european-union:5707

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:02:14 -0800, [email protected]
(Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>>
>> >SUPPORT THE NIZKOR PROJECT!
>>
>> You are clearly supporting conspiracy to violate copyrights. Despite
>> what the fools here are talking about, “fair use” means short quotes
>> used within other contexts.

>Liar. Nizkor is not violating your copyright, but then you know that. Fair
>use does not necessarily mean short quotes. Furthermore, Nizkor is not
>distributing your garbage, only archiving it. Nizkor is violating no US
>copyright laws currently on the books, nor are they violating Canadian
>law.

I have posted the complete legal definition of fair use. You should
read it some time. If you are bright enough to use a browser, look it
up yourself.

Collecting my works selectively and making them publically available
without my permission is illegal. It is not being done for personal
use.

But whether or not you believe it is criminal or not is your business.

It is up to those conspiring to do so to decide for themselves.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:08 PDT 1996
Article: 58427 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Of mice and men and women who scare the shit out of Janet Reno
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:48:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 500
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 12:52:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Return-Path: Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net [206.53.230.100]) by
ixmail2.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA18131; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ind-009-237-110.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp
(Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0usjMc-0049mzC; Tue, 20 Aug 96 00:28 EST
Message-Id:
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 00:28 EST
X-Sender: [email protected]
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=”us-ascii”
To: Matt Giwer
From: [email protected] (Linda Thompson)
Subject: A little help

Here’s what I just sent out over AEN and a few extras to your favorite
person:

Please spread far and wide.

The below message concerns an ongoing harassment campaign being
conducted by
a group that calls itself the “Nizkor Project.” They are are
self-styled
internet group that claims to identify “nazis and terrorists” on the
internet.

Sound familiar? The head of it is a guy named Ken McVay, who is an
American
citizen, living in Canada.

[By the way, when KNOWN U.S. Customs Employee/Internet/Fidonet Web
terrorizor Allen Taylor crashed MCMsys.com with email bombs, he had
help
>from a friend in Canada. Was it McVay? Are we one to the spook trail
here,
eh?)

McVay’s pages contain “biographical” information on “nazis” and when I
first
looked at the page, only about 3 weeks ago, there were *very* few
listings
and the people who were listed, were *not* “nazis” or anything of the
sort.
They were people who had been exposing the role of, say, the military
and
U.S. government in terrorizing the U.S. and in drug trafficking and
the
role of the ADL in subverting the Constitutional Republic of the
United
States through terrorism while using the FALSE COVER of claiming to
fight
anti-semitism and racism.

I told McVay I was going to sue him. Immediately afterwards, he put
up a
whole lot *more* files, mostly about nazis from WWII, to make it look
like
he actually had something in his skimpy “biographical” area. He still
left
the files about me up and posted my messages to him to beef up his
area.

Matt Giwer was another of the people listed on his few pages a couple
of
weeks ago.

I told Matt that when I looked up McVay, that McVay turned up ONLY in
the
military WHOIS listings. Curious, eh?

Since then, Matt has been demanding to know the connection to the U.S.
military (DOD) and this supposedly “not for profit” group (that is NOT
registered as a not-for-profit and uses a drop box in Texas and a
religious
front group in Canada to get its money).

Not at all surprising, most of the information on “Nizkor” is from the
ADL.

Matt has been getting email bombs since he started asking questions.
Here’s
Matt’s letter:

=====================================================
All 256 are not identical save in one feature, they contain the result
of a WHOIS query of milnet of kmcvay.

Lets see now, someone at gryn.org has threatened “This is just the
start, Matt” when the only thing in common is the result of the whois
query. And not of the internic information but of the milnet
information.

Why is that, folks? What is there about the milnet information that
draws such a response from a person completely unconnected with Nizkor
or kmcvay? Or is there some sort of connection?

What is the interest of someone at gryn.org in sending mail bombs
regarding the only common information of kmcvay’s DOD connection? Is
there some sort of connection with the DOD for the both of them?

And what is “nonsense” about what the DOD whois server contains?

If it is erroneous then someone should get the information corrected.

Or has is already been “corrected” as in deleted and is no longer
“true?” And if deleted, why?

That is it. It appears the mail bomb was sent to notify me that the
information had been deleted from nic.ddn.mil. Now it can be claimed
to be untrue even though I am not the only one to have looked it up
and know it was there. I am far from the only one who looked it up.

It is interesting to know that 1B Management Systems Limited still
exists. But why would gryn.org be the one to send the “message”? It
is all so “mafiosa-like.” Do I get a fish wrapped in newspaper next?
No, that is an after the fact message.

And why is it so important to hide that information? Why is it so
important to hide the Nizkor connection to the US DOD via kmcvay?
What is wrong with a person’s employment? The connection was likely
meaningless until tonight’s mail bomb.

Before the mailbomb it was just a matter of curiousity and would
certainly have corrected the “gas station jockey” image of kmcvay.
Now it appears to be something in need of hiding. Before, idle
speculation, after, intensive curiosity. What a fool thing to have
done.

And if it is not true, why does [email protected] still work?
Try it quick before it is changed. Just say “Hi!” and if you get a
response or not, note that your mail is not rejected as undeliverable.
Now why would a person be removed from the DOD whois list but still
have an account with the defense contractor?

What is the point of this bit of amateurishness? An obvious
suggestion is that the public record needs be hidden but it will take
a while for all of the business contacts to get the new email address
so that he can vanish completely from 1B Systems Management Limited.

What is going on here? and why?

Lets put it all together. I first hear of the information with the
suggestion of a CIA connection. Then someone at an org (gryn.org)
owned by a person who has at least claimed past intelligence
connections (Mossad) sends me a mail bomb as a clever way of telling
me the entry has been deleted from the DOD list.

I presume this will incite gryn.org to send another mail bomb which
will be duly reported here to keep the subject alive. You would think
people would be bright enough to know that if things are ignored they
die out quickly and no one pays attention. The way it is going, the
objective appears to be to keep this issue alive as long as possible.

After all, the mail bomb just gave it new life.

This gets curiouser and curiouser.

Is it any more interesting than this?

=====

Yin, Alec (AY42)
American Stock Exchange
86 Trinity Place
NY, NY 10006

(212) 306-8908

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

If so, why? Is anyone really surprised that the American Stock
Exchange works through the US DOD? It is a matter of national
security is it not?

===============

The full record.

===

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=================

Return-Path:
Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by inews1.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id SAA13892; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:32:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from RYKER (gryn.org [206.231.240.146]) by io.org
(8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA03331 for ; Mon,
19 Aug 1996 21:24:02 -0400
Received: by RYKER; 20 Aug 96 02:23:32
From: [email protected] (Spankmeister)
Date: 19 Aug 96 21:08:52 -0500
Subject: Questions about Nizkor
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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V
Original message:


Date: Mon Aug 19 ’96, 06:10:48
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Questions about Nizkor

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Questions about Nizkor
@Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:10:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 49
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Mon Aug 19 3:14:19 AM PDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:21:09 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Yvelinec) writes:
>>> Can you tell me where the name Nizkor come from, when this project
started
>>> and who started it?
>>>
>>> Thank you for your help,
>>> Yveline
>>>
>>>>>>
>> The answer to your questions can be found at the following site:
>>
>> http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

>Or even better: https://nizkor.org both work.

So does this.

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

It is all public information that HE CHOSE to made available. Sorry
about that.

Now what does a gas pump jockey have to do with the US DOD?


| Fidonet: Spankmeister 1:12/98
| Internet: [email protected]

Kind regards,

******************** V ***************************
DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
***************************************************

Linda Thompson

Dr. Linda Thompson
American Justice Federation
Internet: [email protected]

****************************************************
Remember Waco. Remember Oklahoma.
The Murderers are still free and
running OUR country.
****************************************************
PATRIOT and PROUD.
****************************************************
Patriot. n. a person who loves his native country and will do all he
can for it.

The New Lexicon Webster’s Dictionary of the English
Language, 1991 Deluxe Encyclopedic Edition.

The next time you see the media whores claim someone is
a “self-styled patriot” tell them that is redundant and they
are showing their ignorance.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 07:26:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:08:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 10:12:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 17:29:06 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:07:56 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>: >Personally, I think the guy is a kook. And a dangerous one besides.
>:
>: According to Schindler’s widow so is his List.

>Schindler’s list is a kook? I’m unclear on how an inanimate object
>would get to be a kook, Matt…

This is a righteous gentile, a manufactured hero.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Widow says SHINDLER’s list a lie
From: [email protected] (M Huber)
Date: 11 May 1996 11:32:37 GMT

Date: Thursday, 09-May-96 02:30 PM

From: E. Zundel \ Internet: ([email protected])
Subject: Shindler’s wife asserts film is a lie.

The widow of Oscar Shindler, about whom Steven spielberg mad a movie,
decries the film as a hoax and a lie.

“Emilie Pelzl Schindler, the ex-wife of Oscar Schindler, whose story
is
told in the movie _Shindler’s List_, asserts that the events told
about
in the film were deformed and that her husband never wrote the famous
list of Jews to be saved from Auschwitz.

In a book of recollections, _Memoirs_, introduced to the press in
Buenos
Aires, Emilie Pelzl Schindler, a Czech citizen and now 89 years old,
indicates that her ex-husband never went to Auschwitz and that he
could
never have saved the 1,300 Jews whose salvation is attributed to him.

The famous list would not have been written by her husband, but by a
certain “Goldfman” (sic). Factually, nobody even knows what became of
the
Jews inscribed on that list.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 08:33:24 PDT 1996
Article: 27562 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexual,alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.newt,alt.politics.org,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.covert,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism
Subject: Re: Presidential Debates
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:14:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 18 7:17:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.libertarian:198194 alt.politics.media:10315 alt.politics.nationalism.white:27562 alt.politics.org:93 alt.politics.org.batf:14706 alt.politics.org.cia:12644 alt.politics.org.covert:2783 alt.politics.org.fbi:5404 alt.politics.radical-left:112235 alt.politics.reform:89669

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:07:54 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>As you know, there will soon be a series of presidential debates,
>along with one vice-presidential debate. Who decides who gets to
>participate in these debates? An organization called The
>Presidential Debate Commission.

>A BI-partisan organization. Democrats and Republicans. No one else.
> ^^
>I already know who I plan to vote for this year, so it is unlikely
>that the debates will affect my vote. But there are other parties in
>this country besides the “big two,” and in my opinion – if those
>parties are sufficiently organized and legitimate – they deserve to
>be heard in these debates.

>In 1992, the little egomaniac with the big ears from Texas bought
>his way into the debates…and while I’ll admit that he provided a
>good deal of comic relief, few people consider Mr. Perot a serious,
>thoughtful candidate.

>However, there IS a 3rd-party candidate who deserves to be heard.
>Even though I don’t plan to vote for him, I believe that Harry
>Browne of the Libertarian Party should be “allowed” (is this a
>police state or what?) to participate in the debates.

>The Presidential Debate Commission lists eleven criteria by which
>they decide whether or not a candidate will be allowed to
>participate. In other words, they decide whether you will be
>”allowed” to hear ideas other than those coming from the Democrats
>and Republicans. I, for one, would like for some of those ideas to
>be heard, since I have disagreements with both parties on certain
>issues. By any rational measure, the Libertarian Party meets all
>eleven criteria.

>The Libertarian Party – of which I am not a member, nor do I plan to
>join – is a legitimate political party, with elected officials at
>every level of government all over this country.

>The only way Mr. Browne will get a chance to be heard is if enough
>people contact the Presidential Debate Commission about it. Even if,
>like me, you have no intention of voting Libertarian this year, I
>hope you’ll agree with me that it is healthy for a variety of ideas
>to be brought out. Harry Browne deserves to be heard.

>I hope you’ll write to the Presidential Debate Commission and urge
>them to allow us to hear what Mr. Browne has to say. Their address:

>Presidential Debate Commission
>601 13th Street NW
>#310 South
>Washington, DC 20005

>If you prefer not to use “snail mail,” the email address
>is: [email protected]

>Or, point your web browser to http://www.debates96.org

>Thanks for reading this, and I hope you’ll take a few minutes to
>write that letter. The suppression of ideas is not our way; let’s
>hear what Mr. Browne has on his mind.

Upon reading criteria, it would appear that the Libertarian
Party qualifies more than the Reform Party AS A PARTY.

(http://www.debates96.org/criteria.htm)

The criteria are party related.

The Reform Party qualifies only with Perot as it is only Perot
as the candidate that gets media attention. And as it is the person
rather than the party, which is clear to anyone, it is therefore clear
that the Reform Party does not qualify.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 09:12:40 PDT 1996
Article: 435462 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: BATF’s policy of perjury and false imprisonment
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:49:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 257
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 7:53:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.org.batf:14702 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:358094 alt.politics.correct:128350 alt.politics.democrats.d:109765 alt.politics.usa.republican:257880 alt.politics.clinton:275558 alt.president.clinton:89098 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:39212 alt.current-events.usa:23432 talk.politics.misc:435462 alt.politics.usa.misc:102855 alt.politics.libertarian:198067 alt.politics.radical-left:112162 alt.politics.reform:89589 alt.politics.usa.congress:58448 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83142 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:73997 talk.politics.libertarian:113783

[01]
kbINSTITUTIONAL PERJURY
By James H. Jeffries, III

On October 18, 1995, Thomas A. Busey, then Chief of the
National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms (hereafter “BATF”) made a videotaped training presentation
to BATF Headquarters personnel during a roll call training session.
“Roll call training” is weekly or periodic in-house training for
BATF officials — a routine show-and-tell whereby bureaucrats learn
about each other’s duties and functions.

Busey’s National Firearms Act Branch administers the National
Firearms Act of 1934, [footnote 1] the taxation and regulatory
scheme governing machine-guns, silencers, short-barreled rifles and
shotguns, destructive devices, etc. In his capacity of NFA Branch
Chief Busey was the official custodian of the National Firearms
Registration and Transfer Record (hereafter “NFR & TR”) mandated by 26

U.S.C.  5841.

Busey’s presentation was anything but normal, routine or
customary. In describing the NFR & TR, Busey made the startling
revelation that officials under his supervision routinely perjure
themselves when testifying in court about the accuracy of the
NFR & TR.

Every prosecution and forfeiture action brought by the United
States and involving an allegedly unregistered NFA firearm requires
testimony under oath by a duly-authorized custodian of the NFR & TR
that after a diligent search of the official records of which he/she
is custodian, no record of the registration of the firearm in
question was found (or was found but showed a different registrant
than the person being prosecuted). [footnote 2] An alternative
method of proving the same facts is by admission into evidence of a
certified copy under official Treasury Department seal of a similar
written declaration by the custodian. [footnote 3] This is a
critical element of the government’s proof and, according to Busey,
occurred 880 times in 1995 alone (presumably Fiscal Year 1995).

Busey began his roll call presentation by acknowledging that
“Our first and main responsibility is to make accurate entries and
to maintain accuracy of the NFRTR….” Moments later Busey makes
the astonishing statement that

… when we testify in court, we testify that the data
base is 100 percent accurate. That’s what we testify to, and
we will always testify to that. As you probably well know,
that may not be 100 percent true.

Busey then goes on for several minutes describing the types of
errors which creep into the NFR & TR and then repeats his damning
admission:

So the information on the 728,000 weapons that are in the
data base has to be 100 percent accurate. Like I told you
before, we testify in court and, of course, our certifications
testify to that, too, when we’re not physically there to
testify, that we are 100 percent accurate.

How bad was the error rate in the NFR & TR? Busey again:

… when I first came in a year ago, our error rate was
between 49 and 50 percent, so you can imagine what the accuracy
of the NFRTR could be, if your error rate’s 49 to 50 percent.

Does anyone recall the phrase, “Hey, close enough for
government work”?

consider this matter in its starkest terms: a senior BATF
official lecturing other senior BATF officials at BATF national
headquarters in Washington, D.C., declares openly and without
apparent embarrassment or hesitation that BATF officers testifying
under oath in federal (and state) courts have routinely perjured
themselves about the accuracy of official government records in
order to send gun-owning citizens to prison and/or deprive them of
their property. Just who is the criminal in these cases?

All this was too brazen for even some BATF officials to
stomach. Acting on tips from several BATF officials (there are
honest men and women in government, even in BATF), I promptly filed
a Freedom of Information Act [footnote 4] demand precisely
describing the Busey tape. The first reaction was predictable.
After reviewing the incriminating tape, BATF officials discussed
whether they could get away with destroying it. Wiser heads
prevailed; obviously any outsider who knew of the tape probably
would learn of its destruction — and I would have. Or perhaps all
the official shredders were on loan to the White House.

After much tooing and froing with a dismayed Department of
Justice a transcript of the Busey tape was sent to me in February
1996. The Department of Justice was dismayed because the Busey tape
was clearly Brady material. Every defense lawyer knows that under
the Supreme Court’s 1963 decision in Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83,
the government is required in all criminal prosecutions to provide
the defense, in advance of trial, with any evidence tending to show
the defendant’s innocence. Failure to do so can result in dismissal
of an indictment, reversal of a conviction, or other sanctions.
Willful failure to produce Brady material can constitute contempt of
court, professional misconduct, or even a crime.

The Busey tape was clearly exculpatory and clearly implicated
every National Firearms Act prosecution and forfeiture in living
memory. Worse yet, Busey was only the tip of the iceberg. When the
fog had cleared Justice learned that the NFR & TR inaccuracy problem
had been the subject of internal BATF discussion since at least
1979. BATF’s files were replete with minutes of meetings,
statistical studies, memoranda, correspondence, etc., admiring the
problem. The only thing missing was any attempt to correct the
problem, or to reveal it to anyone outside the agency. [footnote 5]

Justice has now commenced the painful chore of advising every
NFA defendant in the country of the situation. It did this with a
recent mass mailing by United States Attorneys to defense lawyers
and defendants of relevant BATF documents, including the Busey
transcript.

The direct consequences of this institutional perjury are just
now beginning to occur. In Newport News, VA, on May 21, 1996,
United States District Judge John A. Mackenzie, after reviewing the
Busey transcript, promptly dismissed five counts of an indictment
charging John D. LeaSure with possession of machine-guns not
registered to him. [footnote 6] LeaSure, a Class II NFA
manufacturer, [footnote 7] had received BATF transfer approval for
the five guns, but then decided to void the transfers and keep the
guns, as he was legally permitted to do. He promptly faxed the
voided Forms 3 to NFA Branch. [footnote 8]

BATF subsequently raided LeaSure and charged him with illegally
possessing the five NFA firearms which, according to the NFR & TR,
were registered to someone else. The government ignored the fact
that on the date LeaSure said he voided the transfers there was a
21-minute call on his toll records from his fax number to NFA
Branch’s fax number — at a time when he could have had no idea he
would one day be prosecuted for continuing to possess the guns.
Rather, the prosecution produced NFA Branch firearms specialist Gary
Schaible to testify as custodian of the NFR & TR that the governments
official records did not show any voided transfers and therefore
LeaSure was in illegal possession of the guns. [footnote 9]

In essence Schaible was testifying that “We can’t find an
official record and therefore the defendant is guilty.” What we now
know is that Schaible should have testified that “We can’t find half
our records — even when we know they’re there — and therefore
we’re not sure if anyone is guilty.”

The government’s case was not aided when Schaible was forced to
admit on cross-examination that two NFA Branch examiners were
recently transferred because they had been caught shredding NFA
registration documents in order to avoid having to work on them.
[footnote 10] Note that they were “transferred.” Not disciplined.
Not fired. Not prosecuted. Not destroyed in place. Transferred.
Just who is the criminal in these cases?

It is too early to predict how many new trials, appeals and
habeas corpus actions will result from this affair. Also of
importance is the number of convicted felons presently suffering
legal disabilities from flawed firearms convictions and what effect
the Busey disclosures will have on their situation.

The indirect consequences of BATF’s conduct will not be so
readily apparent but are potentially devastating. All across the
country Assistant United States Attorneys, United States District
Judges, and other federal and local law enforcement officials are
going to learn what most defense lawyers and gun dealers have known
for years and what the aftermath of Waco and Ruby Ridge starkly
illustrated: BATF officers and agents lie, dissemble and cover up on
an institutionalized basis. These are not aberrations; they are an
institutional ethic, an organizational way of life. Just who is the
criminal in these cases?

Lawyers and defendants in NFA cases who have not received the
“Busey” package from the United States Attorney should be making
prompt demands — both for the package and for an explanation of why
it was not timely produced. I am acting as an informal clearing
house for these matters. Those lawyers or dealers with questions or
problems, or with new information, involving the Busey phenomenon,
or its continuing aftermath, are invited to contact me at (910)
282-6024.

[The author is a retired U.S. Department of Justice lawyer and a
retired colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve practicing firearms law
in Greensboro, NC. He is a 1959 graduate of the University of
Kentucky and a 1962 graduate of the UK College of Law, where he was
Note Editor of the Kentucky Law Journal. He is a life member of the
NRA and holds BATF in minimum high regard.]

END NOTES

1. Public Law No. 474, ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236-1240 (Act of June
26, 1934), 26 U.S.C.  1132-1132q; as amended by Act of April 10,
1936, ch. 169, 49 Stat. 1192; as codified by chap. 736, Act of
August 16, 1954 (Internal Revenue Code of 1954), 68A Stat. 721-729;
as amended by Public Law No. 85-859, Title II, 203, 72 Stat. 1427,
1428 (Act of September 2, 1958); as amended by Public Law No. 86-478,

1-3, 74 Stat. 149 (Act of June 1, 1960); as amended by
Public Law No. 90-618, Title II,  201, 82 Stat. 1227-1235 (Act of
October 22, 1968); as amended by Public Law No. 94-455, 90 Stat.
1834 (Act of October 4, 1976); as amended by Public Law No. 99-308,
 109, 100 Stat. 449, 460 (Act of May 19, 1986); and as amended by
Public Law No. 100-203, 101 Stat. 1330 (Act of December 22, 1987);
Internal Revenue Code of 1986, Title 26 United States Code, ch. 53,
26 U.S.C.  5801-5872 (Title II of the Gun Control Act of 1968).

2. See Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 27 and Federal Rule of
Civil Procedure 44. See also Rules 803(8), 901(b)(7), 902(l), (2),
(4), and 1005 of the Federal Rules of Evidence.

3. Ibid.

4. 5 U.S.C.  552.

5. The first rule of a bureaucrat is “Never disturb a body at
rest.” The second, “If I don’t do anything, I can’t do anything
wrong.” The third, “When in doubt, mumble.”

6. United States v. LeaSure, Criminal No. 4:95CR54 (E.D. Va.,
Newport News Div.).

7. “Special occupational Taxpayers” under 26 U.S.C.  5801 fall
into one of three categories: Class III dealers can possess, sell
and transfer NFA firearms; Class II manufacturers can, in addition,
manufacture and register them; Class I importers can, in addition to
all the foregoing, import them. All SOTs are also required to
possess Federal Firearms Licenses, which themselves come in six
different classifications. Throw in the import and export licenses
and permits required, the various taxes imposed, and the state and
local licensing and registration schemes involved, the mandatory
record-keeping required, and the shipping and transportation
limitations concerned, and you have a lawyer’s paradise.

8. BATF Forms 3 are used to authorize tax-exempt dealer-to-dealer
transfers and to re-register the firearm(s) involved to the
transferee. There are numerous other transfer and registration
forms used depending upon the nature of the transaction, the status
of the parties involved, and the type of firearm and its origin.

9. Violations of the NFA are all 10-year, $10,000 felonies. See
26 U.S.C.  5871. NFA firearms, which carry some impressive sticker
prices, are also forfeit if used in any violation of the NFA. See
26 U.S.C.  5872.

10. We are left to conjecture where the NFA Branch shredder is
located in relation to its fax machine.

11. In addition to the loss of civil rights imposed on convicted
felons by the laws of most states, felons permanently lose the right
under federal law to possess firearms, as well as being potentially
debarred from service in the armed forces, civil employment in
government, receiving security clearances, bidding on federal
contracts, etc.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:40 PDT 1996
Article: 58441 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Dr. Hitler and the Daleks
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:15:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:42:43 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, The Generalissimo
> wrote:

>> Being in this ng for the first time, (that I read here. I see some of
>my posts have been
>> crossposted and imported here) I have one question. Since at least as
>many, and perhaps
>> many many more non-jews, were killed in the camps as jews, how does this
>equal the
>> “planned extermination of european jewery”? It seems that it would the
>planned
>> extermination of all others than nazis. Further, why do jews claim this
>”title” when
>> they were a minority of the people killed? Now so you rash people do
>not get too
>> insensed please note these are real questions.

>This isn’t a question that will anger people, at least I hope not.
>
>There were many more people killed in the camps than just Jews, you are correct.
>
>However, Hitler (and by extension his subordinates) spoke specifically of
>the Jews as being the people they were going to exterminate.

Ah yes, Dr. Hitler and his Daleks running around with a mildly
distorted, soto voce “Exterminate!” on their mechanical lips.

>I don’t believe there is any evidence of a pogrom against homosexuals, or
>against Gypsies, or against Poles.

Then you have selectively read the literature as expected.

>I don’t believe that these people, although they too were murdered in cold
>blood, were SPECIFICALLY targeted the way the Jews were.

In what manner were they non-specifically targetted that acheived the
same result? They were targeted for what they were not for what they
did, despite Wiesel’s opinion of homosexuals.

>If you read this newsgroup, you’ll occassionally see that same hatred of
>Jews pop up from time to time (usually by people who staunchly claim they
>are not anti-Semites). They blame the Jews for everything from their lack
>of a job to the “media conspiracy” and the “banking conspiracy.”
>
>By the way, you might want to visit the US Holocaust Museum if you’re ever
>in Washington, DC. You will see exhibits of MANY different kinds of people
>who were murdered in the camps.

If you look REAL HARD you can find it at the Museum and on their
website but it helps to want to find it so you can expand a footnote
into a claim.

But do not forget their admonishion not to dwell upon 500,000
individual acts of heroism. But heroism is not that common.

>I hope this helps to answer your question. Please feel free to ask more.

Your BS covers nothing.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 58442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:14:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:43:30 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># First you agreed the LK was one large room. You also
># agreed that I and II were identical.

>Oh, God almighty. Have mercy on us. He claims to have
>an IQ of 163, but he still can’t figure this out, after
>posting here for a year or so.

>Look:

>Kremas II & III each had two large underground cellars.

Not according to any drawing or picture on Nizkor or posted here.
Beyond that, why make it up?

>The ones in Krema II are referred to as cellars I & II
>of Krema II.

>The ones in Krema III are referred to as cellars I & II
>of Krema III.

Not in anything posted here before your post.

>But cellars I & II were *not* identical. Cellar I was the gas
>chamber, which is why the inventory list shows it had a gas-tight
>door and shower-heads; II was the so-called “undressing room”,
>which is why it didn’t have a gas-tight door and shower-heads.

>Ok? Is it *finally* clear?

Your creation is far from clear. Which of your two non-“cellars” are
the aerial photos of? They are not underground, they are not cellars.
(Do not forget your folks have already insisted that Leikenkellar
means morgue not that it is a cellar, in english that is.)

And all this time you folks were insisting that those aerial pictures
were of the gas chamber without reservation.

I can see it now, someone is going to spring something entirely new
and claim it was always known by everyone.

># You folks NEVER suggested there were showerheads in any
># of them.

>Which means “I can’t recall seeing that on alt.revisionism”.

Which means it was never here.

>It’s a well-known fact. It is mentioned in the testimonies.
>They are mentioned in the inventory list. It’s on the web.

Only at the ones in Germany which were not gas chambers as you well
know.

># You will never explain how ZB got through showerheads.

>It didn’t. In these Kremas, the only goal of the shower-heads
>was to fool the victims. The Zyklon was inserted via the
>wiremesh devices.

Crematoria are not gas chambers. There are no wire mesh devices. You
are not a legitimate BA candidate.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58443 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:55:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 12:59:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:24:39 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> and it was explained to you that those so-called “gas chambers” are
>> nothing more than post-WWII jewish hoaxes. It was impossible for those
>> buildings as they were designed and according to their structure for them
>> to operate as functional gas chambers.

>Kurt:
>
>Is Suchomel lying?
>
>—BEGIN QUOTE—
>
>CL: What was Treblinka like then?
>
>FS: It was operating at full capacity.
>
>CL: Full capacity?
>
>FS: Full capacity! The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied then. Three trains
>arrived in two days, each with three, four, five thousand people aboard,
>all from Warsaw. But at the same time, other trains came in from Kielce
>and other places. So three trains arrived, and since the offensive against
>Stalingrad was in full swing, the trainloads of Jews were left on a
>station siding. What’s more, the cars were French, made of steel. So that
>while five thousand Jews arrived in Treblinka, three thousand were dead in
>the cars. They had slashed their wrists, or just died. The ones we
>unloaded were half dead and half mad. In the other trains from Kielce and
>elsewhere, at least half were dead. We stacked them here, here, here, and
>here. Thousands of people piled one on top of another on the ramp. Stacked
>like wood. In addition, other Jews, still alive, waited there for two
>days: the small gas chambers could not handle the load. They functioned
>day and night in that period.
>
>—END QUOTE—
>

>_Shoah, An Oral History of the Holocaust_, Claude Lanzmann
>Complete Text of the Film
>Pantheon Books, NY
>1985
>ISBN 0-394-55142-7

I will be keeping this one. I did not keep the proof that Jews were
loaded on board with weapons or that they were suicidal.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58449 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Days Of Murder: Jager’s EK3
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:29:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 384
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:06:58 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

I have been waiting for this one to be reposted for a long time.

Thanks.

>Among all the Nazi documents detailing dastardly acts of mass
>murder and other forms of barbarism, the “Jager Report” is
>perhaps one of the most horrifying.

>Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Jager, commander of one
>of the “Einsatzkommandos” (EK 3), it provides a very detailed,
>blood-curling account of the murderous rampage of this “special
>squad” in Nazi-occupied USSR. Usually, the figures for Jews who were
>murdered by EK 3 are broken into “Jewish men”, “Jewish women”, and
>”Jewish children”.

>To understand the magnitude of the massacres, note the total number
>of victims – 137,346. This is for one Einsatkommando, in a five month
>period, in one area. This report reflects very clearly on the plan
>to kill all the Jews, except those who were needed for working
>purposes; those were, as the report notes, “only” to be sterilized;
>Jager goes on to state that “if despite sterilization a Jewess
>becomes pregnant she will be liquidated”.

>Detailed report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about mass killings
>in Nazi occupied USSR, July-November 1941
>[‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>——————————————————————

>The Commander of
>the security police and
>the SD
>Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941

>————————–
>|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
>————————– 4th copy

> Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
> up to 1 December 1941

>Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
>2 July 1941.
>(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
>Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
>Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)
>On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
>Lithuanian partisans:

>4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
>6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514

>Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of
>SS-Obersturmfuherer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the
>Einsatzkommando. the following actions were conducted in cooperation
>with Lithuanian partisans:

>7.7.41 Mariampole Jews 32
>8.7.41 Mariampole 14 Jews, 5 Comm. officials 19
>8.7.41 Girkalinei Comm. officials 6
>9.7.41 Wendziogala 32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
> (f.), 2 Lithuanian Comm., 1
> Russian Comm. 38
>9.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 21 Jews, 3 Jewesses 24
>14.7.41 Mariampole 21 Jews, 1 Russ., 9 Lith. Comm. 31
>17.7.41 Babtei 8 Comm. officials (incl. 6 Jews) 8
>18.7.41 Mariampole 39 Jews, 14 Jewesses 53
>19.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
> Comm., 2 Comm. Lithuanians (f.),
> 1 German Comm. 26
>21.7.41 Panevezys 59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1
> Lithuanian (f.), 1 Pole, 22 Lith.
> Comm., 9 Russ. Comm. 103
>22.7.41 Panevezys 1 Jew 1
>23.7.41 Kedainiai 83 Jews, 12 Jewesses, 14 Russ.
> Comm., 15 Lith. Comm., 1 Russ.
> O-Politruk 125
>25.7.41 Mariampole 90 Jews, 13 Jewesses 103
>28.7.41 Panevezys 234 Jews, 15 Jewesses, 19 Russ.
> Comm., 20 Lith. Comm. 288

> Total carried forward 3,384

>Sheet 2
> Total carried over 3,384

>29.7.41 Rasainiai 254 Jews, 3 Lith. Comm. 257
>30.7.41 Agriogala 27 Jews, 11 Lith. Comm. 38
>31.7.41 Utena 235 Jews, 16 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
> Comm., 1 robber/murderer 256
>31.7.41 Wendziogala 13 Jews, 2 murderers 15
>1.8.41 Ukmerge 254 Jews, 42 Jewesses, 1 Pol.
> Comm., 2 Lith. NKVD agents, 1
> mayor of Jonava who gave order
> to set fire to Jonava 300
>2.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 170 Jews, 1 US Jewess, 33 Jewesses,
> 4 Lith. Comm. 209
>4.8.41 Panevezys 362 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 5 Russ. Comm.,
> 14 Lith. Comm. 422
>5.8.41 Rasainiai 213 Jews, 66 Jewesses 279
>7.8.41 Utena 483 Jews, 87 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
> (robber of corpses of German soldiers)571
>8.8.41 Ukmerge 620 Jews, 82 Jewesses 702
>9.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 484 Jews, 50 Jewesses 534
>11.8.41 Panevezys 450 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 1 Lith. 1 Russ.500
>13.8.41 Alytus 617 Jews, 100 Jewesses, 1 criminal 719
>14.8.41 Jonava 497 Jews, 55 Jewesses 552
>15-16.8.41 Rokiskis 3,200 Jews, Jewesses, and J. Children,
> 5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan 3207
>9-16.8.41 Rasainiai 294 Jewesses, 4 Jewish children 298
>27.6-14.8.41 Rokiskis 493 Jews, 432 Russians, 56 Lithuanians
> (all active communists) 981
>18.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 689 Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
> 711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
> in reprisal for sabotage action 1,812
>19.8.41 Ukmerge 298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 1 Politruk,
> 88 Jewish children, 1 Russ. Comm. 645
>22.8.41 Dunanburg 3 Russ. Comm., 5 Latvian, incl. 1
> murderer, 1 Russ. Guardsman, 3 Poles,
> 3 gypsies (m.), 1 gypsy (f.), 1 gypsy
> child, 1 Jew, 1 Jewess, 1 Armenian
> (m.), 2 Politruks (prison inspection
> in Dunanburg 21

> Total carried forward 16,152

>Sheet 3
> Total carried forward 16,152

>22.8.41 Aglona Mentally sick: 269 men, 227 women,
> 48 children 544
>23.8.41 Panevezys 1,312 Jews, 4,602 Jewesses, 1,609
> Jewish children 7,523
>18-22.8.41 Kreis Rasainiai 466 Jews, 440 Jewesses, 1,020
> Jewish children 1,926
>25.8.41 Obeliai 112 Jews, 627 Jewesses, 421
> Jewish children 1,160
>25-26.8.41 Seduva 230 Jews, 275 Jewesses, 159
> Jewish children 664
>26.8.41 Zarasai 767 Jews, 1,113 Jewesses, 1 Lith.
> Comm., 687 Jewish children, 1 Russ.
> Comm. (f.) 2,569
>28.8.41 Pasvalys 402 Jews, 738 Jewesses, 209
> Jewish children 1,349
>26.8.41 Kaisiadorys All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
> children 1,911
>27.8.41 Prienai All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
> Children 1,078
>27.8.41 Dagda and 212 Jews, 4 Russ. POW’s 216
> Kraslawa
>27.8.41 Joniskia 47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143
> Jewish children 355
>28.8.41 Wilkia 76 Jews, 192 Jewesses, 134
> Jewish children 402
>28.8.41 Kedainiai 710 Jews, 767 Jewesses, 599
> Jewish children 2,076
>29.8.41 Rumsiskis and 20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197
> Ziezmariai Jewish children 784
>29.8.41 Utena and 582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469
> Moletai Jewish children 3,782
>13-31.8.41 Alytus and
> environs 233 Jews 233

>1.9.41 Mariampole 1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404
> Jewish children, 109 mentally sick,
> 1 German subject (f.), married to a
> Jew, 1 Russian (f.) 5090

> Total carried over 47,814

>Sheet 4
> Total carried over 47,814

>28.8-2.9.41 Darsuniskis 10 Jews, 69 Jewesses, 20
> Jewish children 99
> Carliava 73 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 61
> Jewish children 247
> Jonava 112 Jews, 1,200 Jewesses, 244
> Jewish children 1,556
> Petrasiunai 30 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 23
> Jewish children 125
> Jesuas 26 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 46
> Jewish children 144
> Agriogala 207 Jews, 260 Jewesses, 195
> Jewish children 662
> Jasvainai 86 Jews, 110 Jewesses, 86
> Jewish children 282
> Babtei 20 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 22
> Jewish children 83
> Wendziogala 42 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 97
> Jewish children 252
> Krakes 448 Jews, 476 Jewesses, 97
> Jewish children 1,125
>4.9.41 Pravenischkis 247 Jews, 6 Jewesses 253
> Cekiske 22 Jews, 64 Jewesses, 60
> Jewish children 146
> Seredsius 6 Jews, 61 Jewesses, 126
> Jewish children 193
> Velinona 2 Jews, 71 Jewesses, 86
> Jewish children 159
> Zapiskis 47 Jews, 118 Jewesses, 13
> Jewish children 178
>5.9.41 Ukmerge 1,123 Jews, 1,849 Jewesses, 1,737
> Jewish children 4,709
>25.8-6.9.41 Mopping up in: 16 Jews, 412 Jewesses, 415
> Rasainiai Jewish children 843
> Georgenburg all Jews, all Jewesses, all
> Jewish children 412
>9.9.41 Alytus 287 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 352
> Jewish children 1,279
>9.9.41 Butrimonys 67 Jews, 370 Jewesses, 303
> Jewish children 740
>10.9.41 Merkine 223 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 276
> Jewish children 854
>10.9.41 Varena 541 Jews, 141 Jewesses, 149
> Jewish children 831
>11.9.41 Leipalingis 60 Jews, 70 Jewesses, 25
> Jewish children 155
>11.9.41 Seirijai 229 Jews, 384 Jewesses, 340
> Jewish children 953
>12.9.41 Simnas 68 Jews, 197 Jewesses, 149
> Jewish children 414
>11-12.9.41 Uzusalis Reprisal against inhabitants who
> fed Russ. partisans; some in
> possession of weapons 43
>26.9.41 Kauen-F.IV 412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
> Jewish children (sick and
> suspected epidemic cases) 1,608

> Total carries over 66,159

>Sheet 5
> Total carried over 66,159

>2.10.41 Zagare 633 Jews, 1,107 Jewesses, 496
> Jewish children (as these Jews were
> being led away a mutiny rose, which
> was however immediately put down;
> 150 Jews were shot immediately; 7
> partisans wounded) 2,236
>4.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 315 Jews, 712 Jewesses, 818
> Jewish children (reprisal after
> German police officer shot in ghetto) 1,845
>29.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 2,007 Jews, 2,920 Jewesses, 4,273
> Jewish children (mopping up ghetto
> of superfluous Jews) 9,200
>3.11.41 Lazdijai 485 Jews, 511 Jewesses, 539
> Jewish children 1,535
>15.11.41 Wilkowiski 36 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 31
> Jewish children 115
>25.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 1,159 Jews, 1,600 Jewesses, 175
> Jewish children (resettlers from
> Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am main) 2,934
>29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 693 Jews, 1,155 Jewesses, 152
> Jewish children (resettlers from
> from Vienna and Breslau) 2,000
>29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 17 Jews, 1 Jewess, for contravention
> of ghetto law, 1 Reichs German who
> converted to the Jewish faith and
> attended rabbinical school, then 15
> terrorists from the Kalinin group 34

>EK 3 detachment in Dunanburg
>in the period 13.7-21.8.41: 9,012 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
> children, 573 active Comm. 9,585

>EK 3 detachment in Wilna:
>12.8-1.9.41 City of Wilna 425 Jews, 19 Jewesses, 8 Comm. (m.),
> 9 Comm. (f.) 461
>2.9.41 City of Wilna 864 Jews, 2,019 Jewesses, 817
> Jewish children (sonderaktion because
> German soldiers shot at by Jews) 3,700

> Total carried forward 99,084

>sheet 6

> Total carried forward 99,804

>12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
> Jewish children 3,334
>17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
> Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
>20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
> Jewish children 403
>22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
> Jewish children 1,159
>24.9.41 Riess 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
> Jewish children 1,767
>25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
> Jewish children 575
>27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
> Jewish children 3,446
>30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
> Jewish children 1,446
>4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
> Jewish children 1,983
>6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
> Jewish children 962
>9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
> Jewish children 3,726
>16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
> Jewish children 1,146
>21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
> Jewish children 2,367
>25.10.41 City of Wilna 1,776 Jewesses, 812 Jewish children 2,578
>27.10.41 City of Wilna 946 Jews, 184 Jewesses, 73
> Jewish children 1,203
>30.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 789 Jewesses, 362
> Jewish children 1,553
>6.11.41 City of Wilna 340 Jews, 749 Jewesses, 252
> Jewish children 1,341
>19.11.41 City of Wilna 76 Jews, 77 Jewesses, 18
> Jewish children 171
>19.11.41 City of Wilna 6 POW’s, 8 Poles 14
>20.11.41 City of Wilna 3 POW’s 3
>25.11.41 City of Wilna 9 Jews, 46 Jewesses, 8 Jewish
> children, 1 Pole for possession of arms
> and other military equipment 64

>EK 3 detachment in Minsk from
>28.9-17.10.41:

> Pleschnitza 620 Jews, 1,285 Jewesses,
> Bischolin 1,126 Jewish children and 19
> Scak Comm.
> Bober
> Uzda 3,050
> ——–
> 133,346
>Prior to EK 3 taking over security police duties, Jews liquidated
>by pogroms and executions (including partisans) 4,000
> ———–
> Total 137,346

>Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem for
>Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no more
>Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.

> .
> .
> .

>The distance between from the assembly point to the graves was on average
>4 to 5 Km.

> .
> .
> .

>I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as
>Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still
>available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter
>this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view
>that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be
>started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite
>sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.

> .
> .
> .

>(signed) Jager
>SS-Standartenfuehrer

>

>-Danny Keren.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 58450 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:06:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 3:10:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 16:11:46 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>>Charles wrote:

>>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>> “Sens. Arlen Specter (R-Penn) and Barbara Boxer
>>> > (D. Calif.) presented multimillionaire Steven
>>> > Spielberg with a $1 million federal grant to work
>>> > on a massive holocaust documentation project, the
>>>
>>> > Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation.”

>>Worth every dime of it too. My money, your money, it’s a worthwhile
>>use of taxpayers money. The computer manufacturers donate ten times
>>that much in free computers to schools every year. Quit bitching, it’s
>>something which needs to be done, and Spielberg is putting up millions
>>of his own money too.

>yeah. They extract more guilt-shekels out of our pockets to fund more
>brainwashing campaigns by jewish holohuggers to protect the Holohoax and
>Chuck Ferree tells us to quit bitching.

>Isn’t $1260.00 per Israeli per year from US tax dollars enough?

>Isn’t 100 Billion German marks enough?

>Isn’t $2 million per year in US tax dollars to keep the Holohoax museum in
>Washington D.C. running, enough?

>If not, -when- will it be enough?

It will be enough in about 30 more years when all of the proponents
have died off and the rest get on with life. It may be only 20 years
or even less when those who care about anything in WW II are dead.

Consider that interest in WW I died in the 1960s. The atrocity
stories were uninteresting history.

It is sort of surprising WW II has hung on this long. But again the
finger in the dike analogy. They are running out of fingers.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 58451 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:10:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 4:13:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 03:58:17 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 17 Aug 1996 22:29:12 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>> Stein) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >> Want to address the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that HCN
>> >>causes in your reality?
>>
>> > Want to address the fact that no witness ever said this, confessed
>> >liar?

>> Are you saying Nizkor spreads false stories without foundation in
>> addition to Bernard Naumann making up things like thing?

> No he is saying that you distorted a quote giving it a meaning not
>found in the origianl. In short, you were being dishonest. Again.

And in long, I posted it in its entirety as on Nizkor and you can not
deal with it.

>> Are you suggesting the original source was not a witness?

> No he is suggesting that your reading comprehesion is nil That you
>distorted the testimony out of all recoginition. In short, that you were being
>dishonest. Again.

As you claim you can read, explain it. Go get the original from
Nizkor and demonstrate otherwise.

>> Who do you suggest fabricated this account?

> You. That is because you distorted the quotation to give it a new
>meaning. In short, you were being dishoest. Again.

Sorry, but it is direct from Nizkor. Demonstrate otherwise.

>> Why is it you only question the stories that are so absurd that even
>> you can see it?

> What is absurd is they way you distort a quote to give it a meaning
>that the author never intended. In short, you are being dishonest. Again.

> But lying is all you can do, isn’t it.

The only liar here is here is the one who claims to be an attorney and
who was going to make a phone call to report me to the authorities.

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
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From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 58458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!pacifier!rainrgnews0!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears [amused] interest
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:36:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 2:40:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:18:20 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Of what value is looking INTO a windowless room
># without lights?

>Who told you it didn’t have lights?

All of you folks did from your descriptions of it. Are you now saying
that it did have lights? Please be specific in your answer.

>The same one who told you Belsen camp was in Poland?

The same one who said there were no gas chambers in Belsen.

>-Danny Keren.

>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 58459 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!panix!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: A gassing rock opera
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:13:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 3:16:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58459 alt.politics.usa.republican:258273 alt.conspiracy:79632 alt.conspiracy.jfk:45613 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:358433 alt.politics.perot:53083 alt.politics.radical-left:112277 alt.politics.democrats.d:110018

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:57:46 GMT, [email protected] (Boudica’s
Brother) wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>>Charles wrote:
>>
>>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>>
>> “Sens. Arlen Specter (R-Penn) and Barbara Boxer
>>> > (D. Calif.) presented multimillionaire Steven
>>> > Spielberg with a $1 million federal grant to work
>>> > on a massive holocaust documentation project, the
>>>
>>> > Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation.”
>>
>>Worth every dime of it too. My money, your money, it’s a worthwhile
>>use of taxpayers money. The computer manufacturers donate ten times
>>that much in free computers to schools every year. Quit bitching, it’s
>>something which needs to be done, and Spielberg is putting up millions
>>of his own money too.
>>
>>Chuck

>But, Chuck.

>I would argue that even more good would come out of giving the money
>to Pete Townshend and having him write:

> The Holocaust Rock Opera

Love it.

I can see it now, a cult classic like Rocky Horror. People dressing
like the characters to see it. Himmler in fishnet stockings, or has
that been done?

Or maybe a Mel Brooks treatment.

It’s Shoah for Hitler and Germany
Come Zyklon a new gas on them

SS now into your dance.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 58460 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:23:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 201
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 2:27:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:32:10 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Fuck Israel and Jews and the horse they rode in on.

>You f**k the horse.

>Watch out boys, two days from now he’ll claim he
>never wrote this. Like when on August 14 he called
>me “Jewboy” and now he denies having used that
>expression. He’s going down the tubes.

Why would I claim I did not write this?

On 19 Aug 1996 00:05:44 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, The Generalissimo
>> wrote:

>>> Thank you sara. This makes great sense to me. However you were wrong
>>> about the responses I got!!!! Wow most people I was answered by were
>>> calling me names and saying things like, “It was exclusively jews, Get
>>> lost racist”.
>>
>>I’m truly sorry to hear that.

>I’m sorry to hear that too;

>so are the people now sitting in German jail or who have spent time in
>jail for having so much as doubted the Holy Hollowcause,

>along with numerous German soldiers tried and executed in kangaroo courts
>for bogus crimes,

>as well as professors and professionals fired for in insisting on the
>freedom of historical inquiry,

>as well as several geriatric former German soldier hounded to the ends of
>the earth by frenzied and rabid jews screaming for their blood,

>– all based on a Lie.
>
>>You must understand, however, that this is an extremely emotional issue
>to
>>many poeple (and _I_ admit I can be one of them sometimes!).

>Gee do ya think emotion has at all clouded the reasoning of the
>holohuggers (assuming they had reasoning capacity to begin with),
>rendering them incapable of tolerating disbelief to their orthodoxy?

>>There are many of us who have lost relatives in the Holocaust, and there
>>are many “revisionists” who have mocked those deaths.

>Or rather, many who have been so imprudent as to demand -real- evidence
>for those deaths which holohuggers have repeatedly failed to produce,
>despite the substantial guilt-money they have extorted for their fish
>tale.
>
>>Matt Giwer, for instance, insists that you “cannot mourn something you
>>never had” (or words to that effect). He has “informed” us that we have a
>>problem because we mourn the deaths of relations we did not personally
>>know.

>You may know of a relative “killed in Europe during WWII” — but who
>doesn’t? Your burden is to prove the Holohoax -happened-, that the gas
>chambers existed and functioned, that the Reich had a plan to deliberately
>exterminate jews and that they in fact did it. The positive evidence for
>your Holohoax theory on the whole is at best threadbare and contradicts
>the overwhelming weight of the evidence which points to an entirely
>different conclusion — labor camps, not death camps.
>
>>There are a lot of trolls here who enjoy saying things like, “Hitler
>>didn’t do a good enough job.” There are a lot of Jew-haters here.

>but far more are those whom the holohuggers have reflexively labelled “jew
>haters” for heresy in questioning the Holy Hoax.
>
>>And there are some people who ask reasonable questions in a reasonable
>>way. I try, whenever possible, to respond to those reasonable people —
>IN
>>PUBLIC — so that they won’t be afraid to continue discussions.

>Holohuggers can speak in public because they aren’t in danger of reprisal,
>harrassment, or imprisonment for their belief. Gee, how brave of you
>holohuggers to speak in public. You guys are regular Ernst Zundels.
>
>>I’ve also received my share of hate e-mail, believe me. I throw it all
>>away, and refuse to debate ANYONE via e-mail. If people want to discuss
>>these issues, we can ALL do it by the light of day, in public.

>Although the revisionist who speaks out publicly can stand to lose his
>job, unlike the holohugger, at least in the U.S. -legally- he can still
>openly express doubt about the Holohoax. These people are the epitome of
>tolerance ain’t they?

>>Again, I am sorry you received some unpleasant mail. It does happen.
>>Believe it or not, there are lots of people — on BOTH sides of this
>issue
>>– who can be jerks at times.

>A holohugger unpleasant?
>
>>If you have other questions, please post them here.

>ok
>
>>Sara

>my first question: why are holohuggers are so irrational

Because they are holohuggers of course. They have a belief and
therefore everything must support the belief.

Consider for the moment that I have driven off of this discussion any
and all consideration that there was any Promised Land or any Moses
for that matter. It was quite common before I attacked the fantasy.

Of course now the holohuggers claim they were never here and in fact
deny they ever made the ridiculous claim if you ask them.

What I will do will not be singlehanded again. I need the help of
others who know how stupid this gassing claim is.

The worst I have against me is that I took over this conference
(posted by one, emailed by another showing colusion) as an accusation
but the accusation is that I made is a forum for shooting down the
absurdities and the impossibles the holohuggers believe implicitely.

And now we find that McVay is only personally listed on the DOD
server.

So what is the point of all of this? That we must support the
destruction of the homes of the families of the suspects in Israeli
occupied territorry?

They gassed me six times but I got better supports such barbaric
treatement of Palestinian families and their homes?

Fuck Israel and Jews and the horse they rode in on.

That is not civilized behavior in any manner in this universe and this
century. But anyone claiming that is is needs to defend it.

That appears to be what you are supporting.

>-Danny Keren.

>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 58466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:46:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 8:50:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 13:33:27 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: It is a rather modern conceit that civilians should be left harmless
>: during war. It is sort of a like a belief in the chilvalric ideal but
>: only promoted by the civilians who got in the way.

>Is it really, Matt? A “modern conceit”?

>Matt, can you tell me what the Peace of God was? Does the tenth
>century fit under your definition of “modern”?

Perhaps I should have noted also that it was a modern fantasy that
there was ever a time when civilians were not harmed in war.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 10:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 58470 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!panix!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Def
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:41:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 2:45:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 18:12:42 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 96 00:05:00 +0100, [email protected] (ANGUS
>>MCLELLAN) wrote:
>>>Oddly enough, the Giwer’s beloved Nazis were none too fussy on the
>>>”rules of warfare”, e.g. the ‘Commissar Order’, ‘Nacht und Nebel’, the
>>>’Bullet Decree’, the murder of German and Czech exiles in 1940, the
>>>murder by ommission and commission of millions of prisoners of war, et
>>>cetera ad nauseam and well beyond. But don’t take my word for it.\

>[snip]

>>And as you know, the 1899 rules were not unilaterally binding but only
>>applied when signatories to it were at war with each other. And if a
>>signatory allied with a non-signatory then the rules were inoperative
>>for all the allies. That means that if any one of the countries
>>allied against Germany was not a signtory, Germany was not bound by
>>them.
>>
>> Your next task is to look up which countries were signatories and
>>which were not.
>>
>> And please do not come back with a variation upon “it doesn’t matter.”
>>People spend thousands of man-hours negotiating those rules. And the
>>specific terms under which they became inoperable were put there for a
>>reason.

> Then you should have no problem with any issue of ex post facto laws
>at the Nuremberg trials, as they were not conducted under US law. Yet you
>went on and on about the standards of civilized countries. Now all of a
>sudden you what is civilized does not matter, only what is on paper.

> But of course your hypocrisy is well-known to regular readers.

I have no problem if you wish to agree that the IMT was not a
civilized court proceeding that invoked ex post facto laws.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 11:58:19 PDT 1996
Article: 58475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.u.washington.edu!aonline!news.mhtc.net!news.midplains.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:47:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 8:51:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:53:21 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>> Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>> : It is a rather modern conceit that civilians should be left harmless
>> : during war. It is sort of a like a belief in the chilvalric ideal but
>> : only promoted by the civilians who got in the way.

>This from the same person who described Sherman’s March to the Sea?
>
>Sherman made war on civilians, Mr. Giwer. You yourself admitted that.

What fantasy leads you to believe this is in some manner contrary to
that description.

From m[email protected] Tue Aug 20 12:49:53 PDT 1996
Article: 58480 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:46:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 16 12:48:53 AM PDT 1996
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On 15 Aug 96 06:50:07, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [tom moran ] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)] [Wed 14 Aug 96 08:23][Thu 15 >Aug 96 01:33][0]*>

> tm> Intentionally making photos obscure is a common practice of
> tm> the Holocaust dependents.

>Making idiot remarks such as above is a common practice of
>reality-avoiders.

>Anybody can move backwards up the chain towards the original
>photograph – or at least as far back as to the point where the
>evidence is available in as close to its original form as still
>exists.

>What may be shown downstream of that is based on the medium and
>accessibility *at the time* that it was made available.

I have a picture of people standing in line. The caption reads that
they are headed for a gas chamber cleverly disguised as a movie
theater. Demonstrate they are not headed for a gas chamber.

Several times now there has been a picture posted of a Jew who was
crushed during Krystalnacht. Demonstrate that is what the picture is.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 14:53:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58498 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph – zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:39:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 10:43:27 PM PDT 1996
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:50:39 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## I gave my figures re the Zyklon: in a 500 m^3 gas chamber
>## (as the largest were), 4 Kg of Zyklon will kill the victims
>## within minutes.

># But you NEVER provided any basis for the calculation.

>Ok, I’ll make a deal with you. You post your figure (no
>calculation), and then I’ll post the calculation that
>results in 4 Kg. Fair enough?

You are the mathematician. You first. I am only a lowly four year
degree physicist. Why should I go first?

This is not a matter of a deal. The issue is that a declared PhD
mathematician has never posted a calculation. So post your first.

I have posted at least two that I have bothered to save. So far the
score is 2-0.

># You pulled numbers out of the air or your ass

>I ask you again not to use here the language that you
>learned at home. This is public domain.

Child.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 17:24:12 PDT 1996
Article: 58528 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Demonstration Of Giwer’s Senility (Re: revisio
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:35:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:39:32 AM CDT 1996
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On 19 Aug 1996 18:02:44 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>># What a fantastic reference. You found someone claiming
>># that I used the term. That certainly proves he is a liar.
>>#
>># Or do you want to post another fabrication?

>>You called me “Jewboy” in that article. It’s there.
>>It’s trivial to check. Why do you deny it?

>>-Danny Keren.

>what’s wrong with calling you a “jewboy”? Isn’t that what you are?

Maybe a jewessette from the diminutive first name.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 17:24:12 PDT 1996
Article: 58531 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:52:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:40:14 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## I responded to this in my reply to “kurtstele”.

># You did not. Please repost your claim.

>Once again: the claim “why would they have used up
>resources in transporting the Jews” is void, because
>they *did* transport them. “Revisionists” claim they
>were transported deep into the USSR, which would
>have wasted *more* resources than transporting them
>to the death camps, which were closer.

I said simply that you did not respond and invited you to repost your
claimed response. It appears you are conceding that I am correct.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 18:52:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58553 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:19:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4vbp4b$k[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 2:22:51 AM CDT 1996
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On 19 Aug 1996 16:09:17 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>>> Thank you sara. This makes great sense to me. However you were wrong
>>about the responses I got!!!! Wow most people I was answered by were
>>calling me names and saying things like, “It was exclusively jews, Get
>>lost racist”.

>Yes.

>I understand what happened to you.

>You experienced first hand and for the first time, an experience outside
>of all history, honesty, reasoning, and rationality. . .

>A dimension beyond space and time. . .

>A place beyond sight and sound. . .

>You stumbled into..

>”The Holohugger Zone.”

>wasn’t it horrifying?

Shocking. Absolutely shocking.

To the holohuggers of course. They expected to find people with
titles like Gruppenfeurher on the revisionist side and instead they
find people with a rather narrow focus like gassing and they can not
adapt.

Here they spent their entire preparation in life to attack something
like the parody in The Blues Brothers and instead they find people
simply challenging the gassing story.

As they are unprepared for anything else, they shout Nazi.

They remain incapable of adapting or learning.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 18:52:10 PDT 1996
Article: 58554 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Danish Nazi’s doublespeak
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:58:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:29:02 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:

>Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>> >Only if they do not leave the country voluntarily within 2 years. Nobody
>> >will be held in those camps against their will. If they want to get out
>> >they can go wherever they want except back to Denmark.
>>
>> Goebbels would be so proud of Mr. Kreiberg…. the same Nazi
>> contempt for citizens, the law, the Jews, homosexuals,
>> Roma…. what a wonderful image… Denmark, and all 14 of its
>> citizens, having a party on Friday night, celebrating their
>> “freedom.”

>You overestimate. To paraphrase Dennis Miller, after they get
>rid of the people with the wrong religion, wrong colour and
>wrong language they’ll go after the ones with the wrong haircut,
>wrong salute, wrong opinion and so on until there’s only one guy
>left…and he’ll probably attack a mirror.

To paraphrase Matt Giwer,

After they get rid of those with juvenile political insight they will
have gotten rid of Dennis Miller.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 18:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58555 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:06:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 4:09:42 AM CDT 1996
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On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 21:43:53 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 17 Aug 1996 00:55:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>> Damn fools the rest of the world, using DDT for the same purpose.
>>
>> Rather more odd that DDT was invented early in WW II as was not
>>produced in Germany.

>DDT was invented in the USA during WW2. I have often heard the phrase that
>DDT won the war for the Allies. It was certainly not known to the Germans at
>that time.

More than true. It was the Swine flu that actually broke the German
army in WW I. It was not until after the blockade ended 8 months
after the cease fire that is spread worldwide and killed something
like 10% of the world’s population.

Disease was the major killer in every war up until WW II and then
disease still won that war because the Germans and Russians were not
very good at disease control. It could have been otherwise.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 18:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am still waiting
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:19:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 3:23:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 15:49:15 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> When is the FBI going to show up now that so many of you have been
>>contacted by them for records and evidence?

> Excuse me? Who, exactly, has been contacted by the FBI for records
>and evidence? Can you produce a post where anyone said such a thing? I
>am quite sure I never did so, despite the fact that you insisted I had.
>Are you perhaps hallucinating something? Or are you just a brainless fish
>who does not understand simple English?

> Indeed, I am still waiting for you to learn to read.

> And, of course, to learn how to tell the truth.

>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.

Ah, yes, the continuing fraud and lies of the holohuggers.

BTW: I will be lodging a formal complaint in BC on conspiracy to
violate copyright and violation fo copyright before the end of the
month.

Just a few more facts to get in place.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 18:52:12 PDT 1996
Article: 58558 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous Zgrams
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:06:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 10:09:41 PM PDT 1996
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On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:26:13 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># To get to the iceberg, Wiesel, Wiesenthal, Golda Meyer
># despite her spelling and pronunciation along with most
># of the founders and “fathers” of Israel. And if they were
># not “German” then just what were they?

>Golda Meir was Russian, you dimwitted imbecile. Wiesel and
>Wiesenthal are not Israelis.

MS Meyer never did want to admit it. If it had not been for the
popularization of the gassing by Wiesel and Wiesenthal Palestine would
not have been given to the Zionists.

>It never ceases to amaze me: you simply know nothing.
>No matter what topic is being discussed, you write
>the most stupid things possible. You are amazing.

It never ceases to amaze me that a purported PhD in Math has never
posted a calculation.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 19:30:16 PDT 1996
Article: 58578 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:11:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 10:15:10 PM PDT 1996
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On 19 Aug 1996 13:22:19 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: You really have to get the mindset of the war propaganda of the times.
>: Nazis were credited with every imaginable (and mostly imaginary)
>: superweapon. In fact a very well received movie regarding Nazis
>: cloning supermen in Brazil was a major success despite its impossible
>: biology as little was 20 years ago.
>:
>: If Zundel was a ripoff so what the movie.

>Matt–IT’S A MOVIE! It’s fiction, for godsake. Do you really
>have this much trouble with reality?

Fiction comes in many forms.

>Lessee–Zundel tried to sell folks on a trip to the South Pole to
>look for Nazi UFOs in the Hollow Earth, but that’s okay, because
>there was a movie about it.

Are you charging knowing fraud?

>Every day, in every way, you slip further and further, Matt. I don’t
>blame you, though–having a notorious UFO nutcase and I guy who
>claims to be the reincarnation of an SS man on your side doesn’t do
>a whole hell of a lot for your contention that the loonies are on
>the holohugger side.

You do not appear to have gotten over the similarities and lack of
differences between your gassing stories and the UFO abduction
stories.

Sorry, gassing, UFO abduction, ritual satanic child abuse, they are
all alike.

From [email protected] Tue Aug 20 22:43:21 PDT 1996
Article: 58591 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: When the Nazis return to Denmark…
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:12:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
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On 19 Aug 1996 13:29:35 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 17 Aug 1996 02:26:48 GMT, [email protected] (william c
>: anderson) wrote:

>: >So what’s your point, Matt? That Ole’s idea might not be so bad
>: >after all? People are misconstuing it in some way?

>: As a citizen of his country he is proposing something to be done in
>: his country. A country has every right to control immigrant
>: population in any manner it chooses if it is willing to risk foreign
>: intervention for being obviously unpleasant on the evening news.

>Ole’s not talking about controlling immigration, Matt. He’s talking
>about depriving Danish citizens of their citizenship, no matter how
>long they or their ancestors have been in the country, because of
>their ethnicity. But then, you knew that, didn’t you Matt?

That is up to the majority of Denmark to decide, is it not? But in
any event, he did state 1965 was the oldest under consideration. And
you knew the 1965 cut off date also.

I do not tell other people how to run their country nor what they can
and can not advocate for their country. I am unaware of what gives
you that authority.

>: What is your problem with that?

>Oh, nothing much. Just that it’s evil.

Excuse me. Where is “evil” identified in law? Or rather, what MORAL
code from some nonexistant god do you think should govern the law? Or
what person sanctified by that same nonexistant god do you think
should determine the law?

More bluntly, how stupid are you?

>: Or do you see something universally good about mixing cultures?

>As a matter of fact, I do–if you replace the word “universally” with
>”generally”. That’s not what we’re talking about, though, Matt.
>Under Ole’s plan, it wouldn’t particularly matter what “culture” a
>person participated in.

What you see is your business. Go become a citizen of Denmark and
cast your vote.

>: Apparently he sees an assimilation problem. It is a democracy. If
>: enough see the problem they can find a way to solve it.

>Yup. Perhaps they could even come up with a Final Solution.

So? That is what democracies are for, are they not?

>Let’s nail it down, Matt–are you officially coming out in favor of
>ethnic cleansing, here?

I am simply discussing the matter of a pure democracy and that it can
do anything that a majority decide to do in any manner that a majority
is determined by them.

If you have a problem with that, then what is your problem?

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 58610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Demonstration Of Giwer’s Senility (Re: revisio
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:53:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:57:39 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Aug 1996 18:02:44 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>># What a fantastic reference. You found someone claiming
>># that I used the term. That certainly proves he is a liar.
>>#
>># Or do you want to post another fabrication?

>>You called me “Jewboy” in that article. It’s there.
>>It’s trivial to check. Why do you deny it?

>>-Danny Keren.

>what’s wrong with calling you a “jewboy”? Isn’t that what you are?

>> —-
>>For a summary of the “revisionist” position, look at what
>>Nazi propagandist and “revisionist”, Kurt Stele, wrote:

>> From: [email protected] (Kurt Stele)
>> Message-Id: <[email protected]>

>># The Holocaust is a funny thing..
>># When you hear about it, you wish it never happened..
>># When you discover it’s a hoax ya kind of wish it did!
>># Kurt Stele

>I was trying to make the point that you jews and your ongoing efforts to
>suppress, harrass and criminalize revisionists and to prosecute
>”thoughtcrimes” are causing people to resent you.

>When people wake up to the fact that the jews have been shamelessly lying
>to them, they will -resent- the jews for doing so.

>This is the same sort of jewish lying and chicanery which has caused
>resentful backlashes against jew throughout history before.

>And no wonder.

>You people are hypocrites of the highest order.

>You jews complain about how badly you were mistreated by the nazis (even
>though it’s a lie) yet you brutalize Palestinians on a continual basis.

It is sort of the like watching the “finger in the dike” story being
enacted in real time. A finger here, a finger there. Run out of
fingers and start with the toes. Call in some friends.

Find a mastermind being helped by intelligence connections and they
call in the ex(?)-mossad’s org whoever may have done it.

It is quite hilarious to watch the gassing fantasy go down the tubes.

>You jews pontificate and condemn how repressive and dictatorial the nazis
>supposedly were

>yet you harrass, prosecute and imprison people for “thoughtcrimes.”

It is the Jewish thing to do. Maybe Hitler really was Jewish. The
Palestinians can’t tell the difference. Nor can the victims at Qana
to name the most recent.

>In your chauvanism you claim to be morally superior to the rest of the
>world

>yet you perpetrate the very crimes you project on to other peoples

Yet that “superiority” dies with their every action.

>In other words, -you- people are the -real- nazis of contemporary fiction
>because the nazi of legend was itself a creation of the jewish soul
>and a projection of the jew himself.

>Hypocrite. Holonazi.

Actually you do not have to go that far. The holocaust was quite
biblical in its imagery.

>The longer and harder you continue to enforce this Lie the harder it will
>die in the end.

>When the Lie finally falls the people will be looking for answers from
>their deceivers…

>which is why jewish holohuggers are working at breakneck speed to outlaw
>free speech on the internet and elsewhere, by calling it “hate.”

And in the interim to cause enough trouble for people that their ISPs
drop them as not worth the effort. And orgs like GRYN.ORG engage in
threatening mail bombing when connections are exposed.

>Yet all your efforts will come to naught because Truth inevitably outs.

>But I realize you will continue to push your Lie even -harder- because you
>cannot help yourselves

>and are doing merely what comes naturally.

>The Holohugger and the truth-seeker have irreconcilable differences.

The holohugger has a higher calling than the truth. It is called self
interest.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58613 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:09:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:13:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83376 alt.revisionism:58613 talk.politics.european-union:5714

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:56:47 -0800, [email protected]
(Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> >> >SUPPORT THE NIZKOR PROJECT!
>> >>
>> >> You are clearly supporting conspiracy to violate copyrights. Despite
>> >> what the fools here are talking about, “fair use” means short quotes
>> >> used within other contexts.
>>
>> >Liar. Nizkor is not violating your copyright, but then you know that. Fair
>> >use does not necessarily mean short quotes. Furthermore, Nizkor is not
>> >distributing your garbage, only archiving it. Nizkor is violating no US
>> >copyright laws currently on the books, nor are they violating Canadian
>> >law.
>>
>> I have posted the complete legal definition of fair use. You should
>> read it some time. If you are bright enough to use a browser, look it
>> up yourself.

>THank you I am very familiar with the fair use doctrine. Rather than
>simply posting it you should actually read it.

>> Collecting my works selectively and making them publically available
>> without my permission is illegal.

>No, it is not illegal. Your ‘works’ which amount to four lines in a post
>with ten to fifteen lines of quoted text are posted in a public forum.
>Saving those posts and allowing others to browse them without remuneration
>is hardly an actionable offence under the US copyright act. You might
>proceed in a civil action, and you might even be successful, but, well,
>since you’ve suffered no damages, no lost anything, I would hardly be
>worth your time, now would it ?

Are you claiming they are not my creations? Are you claiming they are
not mine? Or are you confusing an archive of all material with my
material?

In any event, actionable or not, I will be notifying the proper
authorities in BC for their determination of it and the conspiracy to
do it.

So it does not depend upon my or your opinion of the matter. It will
be directed toward those who are in a position to make a proper
determination.

There is no need for any further exchange on the subject.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 58616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news4.agis.net!agis!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: photographs from Belsen
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:22:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:26:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

The following photos are in

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/bergen-belsen/images

They are all pirated from “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R.
Phillips, William Hodge and Company, 1949.

All photos taken by the British and are the result of the
Allies having shut down the supply lines for weeks prior to
“liberating” the camp.

Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp, showing the starvation
caused by destroying the supply lines.

Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen,
showing the massive loss of life caused by the blockade of food
and medical supplies.

Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen, another example of the
unintended consequences of war.

Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in
Belsen, under orders from the British. These women were not
officially members of the SS. They were recruited from the local
prostitutes and are presumed to have traded sex for food.

Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave
in Belsen, showing the true depth of the unintended horrors of
war.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 58618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is so important about this?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:06:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:09:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

So important that it draws mailbombs just for repeating what was on
the milnet whois server? Come on gryn.org, explain the importance of
mailbombing for posting it.

You have everyone’s curiosity aroused now.

Why was it removed from the milnet server? Did he quit the job? What
is your interest in it?

=====
Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 58621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 1:28:59 AM CDT 1996
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On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:07:25 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:14:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>># They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from
>>># France just to gas them in Poland. Or would not the French
>>># “stand for it”?
>>
>>>I responded to this in my reply to “kurtstele”.
>>
>> You did not. Please repost your claim.
>>

>Good grief, Matt. First you say he didn’t post it and then you ask him
>to RE-POST his claim! You really are not trying to make a bit of
>sense, are you?

I am certain that a gosh awful for real PhD can speak for himself.

>>># Not in the Ukraine, not run by Pol Pot.
>>
>>>What about the gulags? How many people were shipped
>>>there by trains? The Soviets could do it, and the
>>>Nazis couldn’t?
>>
>> The Soviets documented every one of them and also recorded the death
>>of every one of them and there is no disagreement in the numbers. If
>>you do not invent gassing the Nazi numbers agree with the registered.

>Where is this documentation, Matt?

In the gulags themselves with master files in Moscow. There have even
been film crews in the Gulags and interviews with some people who have
been there so long they have decided they are too old to leave. I
particularly remember the interview with the Japanese man who was sent
there prior to WW II.

You should watch the documentaries more often. You would know more.

Or are you referring to the SS documentation? Read the damned
newsgroup. I brought it up months ago that it was simple to find
those that were gassed, simply compare the registration and death
records.

I was informed that those who were gassed immediately were not
registered. Or are you now claiming that those who were gassed
immediately were registered? Just what is it you are claiming?

>>>## Ok, let’s here it. What gas do you think they should
>>>## have used?
>>
>>># CO2, free from breathing. If you want it faster, dump
>>># some burning coke down your “induction columns.” It is
>>># not as though it is all that hard to do it cheaper.
>>
>>>Too slow.
>>
>> As you know the “cremation” was the bottleneck. There was no need for
>>speed when cremation could not keep up.

>Right. They burned them in pits.

Even before that claimed time which at Auschwitz was only when the
Kremas were down for repair in any event. Even at the most optimistic
estimates there is no value to speed of gassing when 15 minutes kills
a day’s worth of cremations. So what is the value of gassing speed?

No matter how fast the cremations the process of simply loading them
takes longer than the gassing time. Even hauling a few thousand to
the pits takes longer than the gassing times reported. So what is the
rush?

If cremation and gassing took the same amount of time for the same
number of bodies then there would be a premium on the speed of both if
there was an expectation of being overwhelmed by shipments.

But as we know from the stories, there was not a design expectation of
being overwhelmed with shipments as they mention these as a response
to too many being shipped.

Don’t you pay attention to what is posted?

>> Not in the same time frame as you well know a a mathematician even
>>though your REFUSE to post any calculations.

>Apples and oranges, Matt.

I am certain he can speak for himself.

>>>Can’t you miserable drecks understand that it doesn’t
>>>matter what the source of the gas is? That it will kill
>>>people nontheless?
>>
>> NOT as described by your favorite witnesses as you well know.
>>

>Danny has a favorite witness? I never noticed. He uses so many.

He can speak for himself.

>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]

>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

They will never get it right.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 58623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:55:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:58:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:49:25 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> All male Jews die off tomorrow and there is still a future full of
>> Jews. All female Jews die tomorrow and there are no more Jews in the
>> world.

>Matt, must you keep posting on subjects of which you’re entirely
>ignorant?

Yes. Until I get more than doublethink as an explanation that is.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:45:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:48:55 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 18 Aug 1996 04:17:41 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 17 Aug 1996 01:17:52 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > This comes from a person who claims that cynanide gas should be used
>> >in morgues to kill flies.
>
>> Are you saying that flies and maggots are immune?

> No I am saying the obvious. The only way that it would be effective
>would be if it was used continually. This would make it impossible for the room to be
>used as morgue unless you want the morgue attendents to be working in clouds of
>cynanide gas.

It would be equally impossible for Sonderkommandos to be working in a
half hour while eating and smoking without gas masks.

So what is your problem? As to continually, is not that what you are
claiming for gassing? If not. what is the difference?

>> Have you found something saying that it only works on lice?

> I have found nothing that suggests that it should be used continually in an
>environment in which people work.

Nor did I ask that question.

>> What would you suggest? SS guards with fly swatters?

> How about flypaper?

Does not attract maggots.

>> Are you aware of any other insecticide at the time?

> Flypaper works very well.

On non-flying maggots? What a fool!

>> That was the age of flypaper. You do know that
>> that is, do you not?
>
>Of course. that would be one practical solution. A far better one — both
>cheaper and more practical — than having cynanide gas continuously circulating
>around the room. Do you know of a single morgue in the U.S. that used your
>solution?

What in the hell are you talking about, consiglieri?

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58629 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:55:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:58:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 15:54:23 -0400, [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote to [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer):

>>I’m sorry that you’re a zero, a nothing, a miserable
>>failure, and an imbecile. But it ain’t my fault. So don’t
>>take it out on me, please.

>you holohuggers sure dedicate a lot of time and bandwidth to someone who
>supposedly is “a zero, a nothing, a miserable failure, and an imbecile.”

>What does that say about you?

>If Matt is such a nothing, a miserable failure, and an imbecile, why don’t
>you holohuggers just find something better to do with your time?

>I think alt.religions or alt.fantasy is open.

>Both would fit you holohuggers.

Ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

If I do not go away they will taunt me again a third time.

They are very silly.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 58639 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:12:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 3:15:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:06:52 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>
>>># You’re saying that shipping prisoners across the European
>>># continent by train,
>>
>>>You must have serious reading problems. It was explained to
>>>you, a few times, that the large majority of the victims
>>>were Polish and Soviet Jews, who were not transported over
>>>large distances.
>>
>>>A very simple reason for not shooting, say, the Greek and
>>>French Jews right there where they lived, was because
>>>the Nazis tried to keep the operation secret. When the
>>>Jews found out that they were being sent to their death,
>>>they rebelled (as in Warsaw). Shooting huge numbers of
>>>Jews in the streets of Paris would have alerted the
>>>others of the Nazis’ plans.
>>
>>After the Polish jews -did- find out about the “secret extermination plan”
>>why did the nazis -continue- to send them to the camps anyway?

>Who would stop them from doing so?

>> If
>>according to Keren the reason for inconveniently locating the camps
>>hundreds of miles away was

>In reading _Anatomy_ there is a suggestion that Auschwitz was
>convenient and central to the war effort. It was also central to where
>most all the Jews were.

They were inconvenient to other overrun
>countries. I do suggest you study a bit of WW2 before you open your
>keyboard.

Is it not the dogma that those inconvenient, overrun countries is
where most of them came from?

If not, pray tell where they did come from?

>>”to keep the extermination plan a secret” then
>>why would there be any need to continue transporting them to the camps
>>just to be killed there instead of nearby at no expense, since the jews in
>>Poland already “found out” about the “secret extermination plan”?
>>

>Who was to stop them?

The secret was out but they wanted it kept a secret but everyone knew
about it but it was a secret.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 58644 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wieder mit dem
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:03:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:07:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 20:15:37 GMT, [email protected] (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>> Der Angeklagte Ley erklaerte: ‘Wir schwoeren, wir werden
>>> den Kampf nich aufgeben, bis der letzte Jude in Europa
>>> ausgerottet und wirklich tot ist. Es is nicht genug,
>>> den Juden, den Feind der Menschheit, auzugliedern —
>>> der Jude muss vernichtet werden.’
>
>>> But let’s try again. Is the **sentence** equivocal ? Do this sentence
>>> mean that all the Jews in Europa will be killed until the end of the
>>> war or not ?

>> Whether the sentence was equivocal or not… where they?
>> There’s at least close to a million victims of German persecutions
>> who survived, a prooven number if we account for Israel, USA,
>> Canada, Argentina and so on. There’s also another million or
>> so who were not necessarelly deported but who stayed in Europe
>> after the war. The bulk of the soviet Jews, eastern polish Jews
>> were evacuated before to the German invasion according to several
>> reliable sources that I have here. Several were able to
>> leave Europe during the war also. And there’s no reliable statistic
>> for soviet Union, contradictory statistics. It is hard to know
>> the exact number of those who perished, but since one can find
>> similar threats of exterminations in the future mode against the germans
>> in the declaration of british officials, such a threat in the future
>> time do not explain why so much survived if there was a centralized
>> extermination policy that was decided in Berlin in 1942.

>I do not want to add (very) hypothetical survivors, this would be
>endless as one of the frontiers was soon closed after the war. Even if
>it is between 1M or 5M deathes, such statistics are whimsical (I speak
>the yours, of course).

>I prefer to resume some arguments from the French historian
>Vidal-Naquet to try to show what is the method of the deniers (or the
>revisionnists, to be polite).

>1/ A direct witness, if he is Jewish, is a liar.

Not that the witness is Jewish but if and only if he actually
testified to the impossible. But so few actually testified it hardly
matters.

>2/ A witness, a document earlier at the end of the war is faked or a
>rumor (the “bottles” of the SK in Auschwitz, aso).

Bottles of SK?

>3/ the documents concerning deportations (ghettos, summary executions,
>trains,..) are faked.

One of the major ones was produced three years after the author was
quite dead. Keren loves that one.

>4/ a Nazi document, if it is “coded”, is authentic. But otherwise, as
>for example that of Himmler’s, is valueless.

A tape by an unidentified person? Please.

>5/ postwar witnesses are valueless (torture, or intimidation).

In absense of physical evidence, of course, considering most of the
“witnesses” were unsigned and typewritten statements from people who
were never produced.

>6/ “technical” arguments “proving” the “impossibility” of gassings.

That the facts do not match the descriptions as you know.

>7/ the same word can have two meanings. For example if Borszat wrote
>”keine Vergasung in Dachau”, Vergasung means homicidal gassing; but in
>the documents of the Bauleitung, it means “vaporization cellar” (see
>Butz).

It does not mean either. It appears to be a word invented by a person
who did not have German as a native language as in the NKVD again.

>8/ all comparison giving weight to the documents are avoided.
>Einsatzgruppen, Babi Yar, relationship between employed them of T4 and
>these of Treblinka, and so on.

Babi Yar? It is the geyers of dirt caused by the fart or the geyers
of blood that are true?

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:37 PDT 1996
Article: 58645 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:09:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:12:49 AM CDT 1996
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On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:29:55 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> If Zundel was a ripoff so what the movie.
>>
>> Boys from Brazil, right up there with “Amazon Women from the Avocado
>> Jungle” as a B movie but because of the performances and the
>> performers it gets a “credible” rating, regardless of being as equally
>> idiotic as Nazi UFOs.
>>
>> It is a touch like Shindler’s List. It gets away with cloning in the
>> same manner that Star Wars gets away with its nonsense. All Science
>> Fiction should be grouped together.
>>
>> Nazi UFOs, Boys from Brazil and Star Wars are all fantasies of the SF
>> kind.
>
>Sigh.
>
>It’s amazing that someone with a so-called IQ of 163 does not understand
>the difference between a NOVEL (_The Boys From Brazil_), a MOVIE (_The
>Boys From Brazil_) and Ernst Zundel’s CLAIMS.

It is not amazing that you do not understand the UFO industry in the
50s. It is like Oprah Winfrey and the tabloids today.

>Please DOCUMENT for us, Mr. Giwer, WHEN Mr. Zundel EVER admitted his UFO
>claims were science fiction.

No more than one of the tabloids ever admitted that Rush Limbaugh did
not meet with the space alien. You have to take your recreation where
you can.

>Ira Levin’s book clearly says NOVEL on the cover.

Next time you are in the grocery checkout isle see how many of the
tabloids say fiction. And how many do you think really take them
seriously?

>You’re really pathetic when you try to defend Zundel. But then, you’re
>really pathetic altogether.

It was entertainment and a living. So was P.T. Barnum. So is Ralph
Nader. So is Greenpeace.

You really think there was a difference. You are very strange.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:38 PDT 1996
Article: 58646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:10:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:13:39 AM CDT 1996
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On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:08:08 +0000, Chuck Ferree
wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Matt, why don’t you just buy the Internet, then you could run it your
>way. Until you own it, don’t try to run the sucker.
>Chuck

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>bullshit as usual!

I only control this newsgroup at the moment. Get used to it.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 58647 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:04:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 20 Aug 1996 14:14:54 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 19 Aug 1996 13:22:19 GMT, [email protected] (william c
>: anderson) wrote:

>: >Lessee–Zundel tried to sell folks on a trip to the South Pole to
>: >look for Nazi UFOs in the Hollow Earth, but that’s okay, because
>: >there was a movie about it.
>:
>: Are you charging knowing fraud?

>I don’t care if it was “knowing fraud”–but it’s a choice between that
>and utter, irrevocable kookdom.

You mean like Jimmy Carter? Witness to flying saucers and killer
rabbits?

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:40 PDT 1996
Article: 58652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.current-events.net-abuse,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: The evening mailbomb from gryn.org
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:01:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 281
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:05:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58652 alt.current-events.net-abuse:28042 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:359020 alt.politics.correct:128790 alt.politics.democrats.d:110463 alt.politics.usa.republican:258910 alt.politics.clinton:276313 alt.president.clinton:89430 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:39358 alt.current-events.usa:23639 talk.politics.misc:436538 alt.politics.usa.misc:103118 alt.politics.libertarian:198655 alt.politics.radical-left:112425 alt.politics.reform:89876 alt.politics.usa.congress:58774 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83487 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:74306 talk.politics.libertarian:114204

What would life be like without the nightly mailbomb from gryn.org.
90 copies so far on top of 256 from last night. And look at
amateurish attempt to cover it up.

And again, the only thing these messages have in common is the
information on kmcvay. What is there about the ex-Mossad trying
“punish” the publication of kmcvay’s DOD connection? Why is it so
important that the entry was erased from the MILNET list?

I wonder what would happen if I simply let my mailbox fill up?

Return-Path:
Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

amateurish

(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id VAA07833; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:08:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from RYKER (gryn.org [206.231.240.146]) by io.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

obvious

And this from the clown who brags about knowing so much about the
internet. Why he can do anything and cover it up so no one will know
he did it.

This is the bragging expert we have all come to know and love.

(8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA21401 for ; Wed,
21 Aug 1996 00:07:23 -0400
Received: by RYKER; 21 Aug 96 05:06:52
From: [email protected] (Poppa Giwer)
Date: 20 Aug 96 20:43:14 -0500
Subject: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Message-ID:
Organization: images incarnate
Reply-To: [email protected]
Followup-To: alt.flame,alt.test
To: [email protected]

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Of the message, you moron!!

Well, since you like repeating nonsense, I thought that I’d oblige
you.
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This is just the start, Matt.
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Of this part, you moron!!
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Original message:


Date: Tue Aug 20 ’96, 02:04:14
Attr: kil
From: [email protected], (1:12/98.0)
To : All, (1:12/98.0)
Subj: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
@Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust
Revisionism)
@Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:04:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
@Lines: 73
@Message-Id: <[email protected]>
@References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>

@Nntp-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com
@X-Netcom-Date: Tue Aug 20 1:07:54 AM CDT 1996
@X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:50:47 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[Giwer’s post listing Ken McVay’s address TWICE deleted]

>What is the purpose of this, Mr. Giwer?

I am simply curious what it is all about. After yesterday’s mail
bombing from gryn.org, owned by the only person here who talks about
his Mossad connections, it has become a very interesting subject.

Can you explain it? What is the connection between kmcvay and the US
DOD? Why was he carried there? Why did a org owned by a man with
Mossad connections send the mail bomb regarding it?

You tell me. What is going on here? As Ross Perot said, I am all
ears.

Are you not curious in the least? I certainly am. And if I post it
often enough someone might come up with the answer. Do you have an
answer?

=====

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


|Fidonet: Poppa Giwer 666:666/666.666
|Internet: [email protected]

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 58688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: When the Nazis return to Denmark…
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:09:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]ac.bc.ca> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 6:13:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58688 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:359150 alt.politics.correct:128847 alt.politics.democrats.d:110552 alt.politics.usa.republican:259048 alt.politics.clinton:276414 alt.president.clinton:89469 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:39375 alt.current-events.usa:23662 talk.politics.misc:436693 alt.politics.usa.misc:103151 alt.politics.libertarian:198739 alt.politics.radical-left:112465 alt.politics.reform:89911 alt.politics.usa.congress:58811 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83527 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:74341 talk.politics.libertarian:114261

On 20 Aug 1996 15:52:20 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: I am simply discussing the matter of a pure democracy and that it can
>: do anything that a majority decide to do in any manner that a majority
>: is determined by them.

>So it would also be okay with you if these “undesirables” were, say,
>gassed–so long as the majority of Danes said it was okay?

I have no idea who the Danes might consider undesireables. Were it me
I would consider the Brits first. After all, they left the continent
20 million years ago.

But I have no idea of what OK means. There is legal and illegal but
that applies only within nations.

If another nation or nations wish to stop internal gassing they will
have start a war. But I find no gassing in the proposal.

Rather, as always, I propose that an armed populace is a polite
populace and the only real assurance against such crap happening.

Certainly the majority can declare that a minority should be gassed
and then they can go collect that armed minority for gassing.

Rotsa Ruck if they are armed. If they have let themselves be
disarmed, they were literally terminally stupid.

It is only an armed citizenry that can prevent government sanctioned
depredations. Any democracy can do anything it wishes. It is only an
armed populace that can stop something like this. In fact I have
proposed that any criminal law require a 90% approval in any
legislative body as if 49.9% do not thing it should be criminal it
hardly has any serious moral authority behind it.

It is only an armed citizenry that can extract a penalty for such
errors. The government is not god. The government is not the pope.
The government is the lesser of evils.

The government makes mistakes and the penalty for a serious mistake is
as serious as the penalty the government imposes.

When there is no penalty for collecting people for gassing then there
is every reason to continue to do so as there is no penalty for doing
so. But any people that lets itself be disarmed is equally stupid.

The Russians were not that stupid. Citizen possession of guns was
outlawed for decades but obviously it was never enforced as everyone
and his brother had a gun once TV was allowed in to the new democracy.
If the Danes were really that stupid, only a god can help them.

Were Denmark to begin such a plan I would certainly be the first to
try to or support moving weapons into Denmark for those targeted. It
could be done for only four times cost, roughly $1000 a serious
handgun. Anyone in the arms business could get the first 1000 into
the country. The next shipment would be 4000 then 16,000, etc. It
would be trivial. (I was with D. Gordon International for a while.)

Let them deal with it themselves and get rid of the government that
took from them the right to defend themselves by denying them the
possession of firearms. Simply taking away the ability of modern self
defense is sufficient reason for the violent overthrow of a
government. I have no problem with that, I hope you do not either,
but if you do, why?

If Nazi Germany and Communist Russia proved anything it is that
government with guns is a much greater threat to civilization than
citizens with guns. It was the same in the American Revolution. The
“shot heard ’round the world” was because the British troops were
moving to take away the means of self defense; attempting to
confiscate the powder magazine at Concord.

You may recall that is exactly what I said should have been done by
the Jews in Germany and in other countries that were selected for
special attention. They permitted themselves to be disarmed like
lambs to the slaughter. And the holohuggers always support taking
away guns in a perverse self-destructive act of self-immolation.

But of course it was challenged by the holohuggers as being in some
manner unrealistic. They proposed that the Nazis were really the
average citizen and not the government. They proposed that armed
citizens were a greater threat than an armed government. And this in
light of revelations of institutional perjury by the BATF that will
overturn every conviction on illegal weapons possession in the last 30
years.

Trust your government even when it admits it puts people in prison
with perjury. What the hell, multiple perjuries, felony convictions,
loss of constitutional rights. It is all the policy of one part of
the US Government. And who could possibly state that a violent
response to this kind of nonsense is improper?

But of course it would have been “uncivilized” for Jews to kill those
who were shipping them off to be killed. After all, they were special
in their disability. Perhaps simply nonviolent by nature. Ask the
Palestinians for verification.

I fail to see why people who are not willing to die now when death is
in their future are to be celebrated.

There is nothing good about death or sacrifice. Dead is nothing but
dead. A rational person has nothing to lose. A rational person is
never guilty.

Every rational person defines a threshold where he will kill else he
has not thought to the future or fears to think of the future. But of
course there are always the “it can’t happen here” types but the
Communications Decency Act did happen in the US. Zundel did happen
inu Canada. In most of Europe it is now in place.

Should Europeans kill when the government comes for them for
expressing “hate speech”? It depends upon their proclivities and
priorities. Clearly if a few arresting officers left widows there
would be much less interest in arresting free speech advocates.

And the law would be revised or the enforcement would stop or more
grunts on the line would be dead. If people are not willing to put
the price of life on freedom of speech, if people are willing to let
themselves be deprived of the ability to extract the price of life for
freedom of speech, then there is no freedom of speech.

And with the loss of freedom of speech all else falls.

Civilization depends upon the power of the people to control in the
extremum the power of the government they created.

Civilization is the people not the power of the government, by the
people, of the people and for the people. Remember those words?

Civilization is the control of the power of the government and nothing
more and nothing less. If you do not trust the people how can you
trust the person in charge much less the “people” to whom he delegates
his power?

Or did you miss this in your lower education?

Thank you for the lead and the forum. Well done.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 07:54:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40268 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news4.agis.net!agis!ns2.mainstreet.net!news.us.world.net!news.inc.net!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Which Jew bankers run the Fed. Res.?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:38:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 8:41:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:79921 alt.politics.white-power:40268 alt.revisionism:58692

On Mon, 19 Aug 96 22:16:37 GMT, Alexander Baron
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Edward Flaherty” writes:

>> Interest on the bonds owned by the first two groups, federal agencies
>> and the Federal Reserve, is paid back to the Treasury so that part
>> of the federal debt is non-interest bearing in effect.
>>
>> Moreover, conditions for ownership of stock in the Federal Reserve
>> banks is established by law. See Title 12 of the U.S. Code, sections
>> 281-290. The Fed is not owned by a banking elite. Your Christian
>> Coalition speaker and the above book you mention are wrong.

>Let’s assume you’re right; who owns the debt? How come the US is 4 trillion
>dollars in debt?

You aren’t going to believe this but … The major holder of US debt
is the US Social Security Administration. That puts the real debt at
more like 8 trillion.

The next largest investor are people owning certificates of deposit
usually bought through banks and mostly in the US.

The largest foreign investor was Japan and may still be but they may
have cashed out some due to their current recession. After that I
have no idea. Probably the Brits or the Dutch.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 08:30:42 PDT 1996
Article: 436744 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: here it is again, what is kmcvay?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:19:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 152
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Linda Thompson)
Subject: What is so important about this?

Well, Matt Giwer continues to get mail bombs for posting Ken McVay’s
DOD
listed domain information.

McVay runs “Nizkor project.” It’s an ADL “me-too” webpage. McVay is
an
American Citizen, operating from Canada, using a religious group as a
front
to receive “donations” for his “efforts.”

So, we track down who McVay is and gryn.org (Alec Grynspan, with 4
fidonet
addresses, and his own domain name), who claims to have been (probably
still
is) Mossad, sends Giwer mail bombs.

^^^^^

Excuse me, just to be scrupulous, I have stated the gryn.org has sent
me these mail bombs even though the org has only one member. And of
course the ORG is a COM but beyond that …

BTW Alec, you would be amazed as to how many people this is going to
even without the distribution I add to it.

And do not forget, Linda T. hates my guts for good reason and I do not
like her either for many reasons.

But the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Remember that. Mutual
enemies make strange bedfellows. It has in this case at least.

Bomb again and make it even more obvious that this connection has to
be punished in a very kinky manner.

vvvvv

Here’s Giwer’s latest:

===================================================
What is so important about this?

So important that it draws mailbombs just for repeating what was on
the milnet whois server? Come on gryn.org, explain the importance of
mailbombing for posting it.

You have everyone’s curiosity aroused now.

Why was it removed from the milnet server? Did he quit the job? What
is your interest in it?

=====
Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

Kind regards,

******************** V ***************************
DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
***************************************************

Linda Thompson

Dr. Linda Thompson
American Justice Federation
Internet: [email protected]

****************************************************
Remember Waco. Remember Oklahoma.
The Murderers are still free and
running OUR country.
****************************************************
PATRIOT and PROUD.
****************************************************
Patriot. n. a person who loves his native country and will do all he
can for it.

The New Lexicon Webster’s Dictionary of the English
Language, 1991 Deluxe Encyclopedic Edition.

The next time you see the media whores claim someone is
a “self-styled patriot” tell them that is redundant and they
are showing their ignorance.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:25 PDT 1996
Article: 58689 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:23:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 138
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 8:26:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 17:24:17 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 18 Aug 1996 16:03:40 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>>> For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
>>>>inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was “gas
>>>>tight.”
>>
>>> That is the gas chamber of Krema II (and its twin, Krema III).
>>
>> Buzzer there. K III is identified on Nizkor as being the undresseing
>>room for the gassing vice the LK or I and II.

> Produce the reference or give it up, confessed liar.

We were over this months ago. Look it up.

>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

> Or is this just your illiteracy showing instead of your dishonesty?
>It is often hard to tell. We must keep in mind that it takes a 163 IQ
>type like you to read “after a few minutes there was silence” as meaning
>that screaming went on for tens of minutes.

Perhaps you think there is only one true story. Or do you have your
favorite version of the truth?

>> Post the drawings of the “other” underground room when you get
>>the lying chance.

> You first, confessed liar. Post your reference to back up your claim
>that Nizkor identifies Krema III as being the undressing room. Then we
>can go on to the many other claims you failed to back up.

> I trust you can understand why I will not be holding my breath,
>confessed liar.

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:26 PDT 1996
Article: 58690 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.unb.ca!familynews.cycor.ca!bignews.cycor.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:16:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 18 10:19:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Aug 1996 13:24:47 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 17 Aug 1996 00:55:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > Damn fools the rest of the world, using DDT for the same purpose.
>>
>> Rather more odd that DDT was invented early in WW II as was not
>> produced in Germany. Have you honestly (as is truthfully) missed
>> everything I have posted about the use of cyanide as a fumigant in
>> Germany over the months?

> I sure have. There are coffee stains on the monitor from reading your
>statements that Zyclon B could be used in morgues to kill flies. It represents the
>silliest of your comments.

Yes, you are truly stupid. It is interesting that you truly believe
flies and maggots are immune ot HCN. It is also interesting you
appear to believe that some place you have read it works on body lice
only.

>> >Odd as well that there was no problem in WW I before the invention of
>either.
>>
>> It is amazing that anyone would pretend that lice and rats were not a
>> problem in WW I. Do add a little bit to your sparse education, one of
>> the old criteria for war was how long the army could hold out against
>> the diseases of close living.

> Typhus was not a problem in WW I. Try reading “Rats, Lice and
>History” the operative portions of which have been posted here in the past.
>There was *no* typhus whatsoever on the western front. The typhus problem
>on the eastern front and among POW camps with prisoners from the eastern
>front. Outbreaks were controlled by the medical science of the day; there were
>*no* typhus epidemics. The last typhus outbreak in the U.S. was in New
>York in 1921. It was controlled with the use of medical knowledge of the day
>within two months. Your claims are a chimera based, as usual, on your lack of
>education in matters medical.

I said lice and rats. You said typhus. It is amusing that you
believe those are the only diseases they carry.

You are truly stupid.

>> You must certainly have read of heaving dead animals over the
>castle
>> walls to start epidemics. Or do you imagine they hit the ground and
>> splattered everyone?

> Yes, there sure knew a lot about infectious diseases in the middle
>ages. Please tell us what diseases are transmitted in that manner. Go ahead,
>make an ass of yourself again.

I will leave it to you who has claimed there were none.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:27 PDT 1996
Article: 58703 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Historians, Storytellers and the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:34:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 10:38:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

It is important to put the work of the couple historians (and wannabes
like Pressac) regarding the holocaust into perspective. The
perspective is to realize that their major has been to REVISE the
Nuremburg findings to make the claims for the holocaust appear less
absurd.

It is those who write about the holocaust (who are all loosely
elevated to the status of historian) who have refined and purified the
stories. They have removed from the public record all the testimony
about steaming and electrocution and vacuum chamber suffocation. They
have removed those an many other things such as the “special method”
of burning bodies without fuel.

It is to these writers that the holocaust and in particular the
gassing owes its greatest debt as the Nuremberg trials themselves
stand as a testiment to the concept of victor’s justice and that any
old evidence would do.

With only the “damning” evidence of the trials the entire story would
be obviously false. So these writers have pared away the absurd and
incredible parts and woven a single issue story of gassing, gassing
and more gassing.

What is most interesting is that in all but the most recent cases this
has been done without even once visiting the scenes of the crimes. So
what did they have to work with? The Nuremburg evidence of course.

So how did they do a better job of determining the “truth” than the
efforts of four nations with all the man power and other resources
they needed? How indeed. Simply put, they could not do so.

The only thing they could do with the resources they had available to
them was to come up with a consistent and credible story that could be
told simply. The story had to have at least some basis in the trial
records so entirely new stories could not be invented, at least at
first. Further they were bound by certain hard requirements of the
story such as 6 million Jews regardless of how the numbers added up.

So over the years parts of the trial record have been eliminated from
the retelling of the story. They were finally able, by the 1970s to
narrow down to two means death, roving execution squads and gassing.
At no time did they add up the numbers but simply declared 6 million
else if they had the total would not be six million. Thus when three
million fewer were gassed at Auschwitz then three million more were
shot by the roving bands.

These writers (perhaps better known referred to as story tellers as
they wove a modestly credible story from incredible details in the
formal record) have succeeded in establishing the orthodox view of the
holocaust.

What they have not done is equally interesting. They have not gone
beyond the tribunal records. Thus when there is there is
documentation of liberated camps that indicates an ugly story they let
it stand. Wheras a historian would document how the camps came to be
in the condition found they rather let the image stand that the camps
were in such condition from the moment they were constructed.

Thus these writers are clearly acting as storytellers. It is the
story of human evil upon the innocent which ends in the triumph of
good with the establishment of Israel. It is the story of a reward
for suffering. The descent into hell to later rise to heaven and
become a god.

Thus in telling the story, the worse the hell the greater the reward.
Where the storytellers have failed is in finding a way for those who
suffer to have caused the triumph. Those being rewarded are supposed
to triumph over evil by their own labors.

Thus the struggle becomes the post war struggle to found Israel.
Whereas a historian would trace the Zionist movement from the late
1800s through 1947. But the prewar part is rarely discussed in the
context of the holocaust by the storytellers. The complete story is
something that simply can not be properly told because the mythos
lacks the struggle of the innocent to end the evil.

Interestingly the Cold War prevented the Russians from being portrayed
as the saviors. It became politically infeasable to link the jewish
members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union as having saved
their fellow Jews. It simply would not have played in the west during
the Cold War.

Thus lacking a mythic element it is a story told in separate parts,
the suffering and the triumph while the pre-war part of the triumph is
mainly ignored. Those who tell full story of zionism with the
holocaust in context are generally “reviled” as somehow unpleasant
people, perhaps even unclean.

But how else can the present be understood without putting the
holocaust into the context of Zionism? Are people to be left with the
impression that a return to Palestine was an idea that started in 1945
among those who were in the camps?

But if it is all told as history then the suffering a triumph elements
vanish and it clearly becomes the use of the holocaust to promote the
70 year old goal of Zionism. It changes from suffering and triumph to
a more common story of the exploitation of human suffering by those
who did not suffer for long term political goals. It becomes at best
a story of political opportunism.

=====

HTML version available upon request.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:28 PDT 1996
Article: 58707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:39:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 218
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 11:43:20 PM CDT 1996

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:38:31 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># We have all been looking for some Nazi government document
># indicating a state policy of extermination for years.

>Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
>[Hitler and the Final Solution – G. Fleming, University of California
>Press, 1984, p. 70]

This is an excellent example of a spurious document, clearly
manufactured.

>————————————————————————
>With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer’s
>Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
>the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
>first be constructed.

Note the date.

Brack’s view is that, since construction of the
>apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
>than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
>send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
>Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.

Note where they are to be sent.

>Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
>question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
>precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
>contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer’s Chancellory through
>your higher SS and Police leader.

Note that Treblinka was already in operation at the time and doing
quite well according to the currently approved dogma.

Note further that IF referring to ZB THEN where did he get the idea
that there were special hazards as none were found in any of the three
stories about the first gassing and no special hazards are mentioned.
In fact plain vanilla standard issue gas masks are used, even by Hoess
himself in Hoess own story of the first gassing.

Please request from him the
>dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
>that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
>Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
>office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
>information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
>Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
>[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
>evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps,

Note the gassing at Lodz in addition to Riga.

>from which those
>fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
>present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
>without qualms through use of the Brack device.

Ah, the mysterioug “Brack device” is in use again. Why it killed
millions all by itself. A truly devilish device.

Incidents such as
>those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
>to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
>mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
>procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
>fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
>the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
>apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
>to any further measures you take.

>

>-Danny Keren.

You really do not screen these for credibility before you post them do
you?

> —
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Historians, Storytellers and the Holocaust
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:34:49 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

It is important to put the work of the couple historians (and wannabes
like Pressac) regarding the holocaust into perspective. The
perspective is to realize that their major has been to REVISE the
Nuremburg findings to make the claims for the holocaust appear less
absurd.

It is those who write about the holocaust (who are all loosely
elevated to the status of historian) who have refined and purified the
stories. They have removed from the public record all the testimony
about steaming and electrocution and vacuum chamber suffocation. They
have removed those an many other things such as the “special method”
of burning bodies without fuel.

It is to these writers that the holocaust and in particular the
gassing owes its greatest debt as the Nuremberg trials themselves
stand as a testiment to the concept of victor’s justice and that any
old evidence would do.

With only the “damning” evidence of the trials the entire story would
be obviously false. So these writers have pared away the absurd and
incredible parts and woven a single issue story of gassing, gassing
and more gassing.

What is most interesting is that in all but the most recent cases this
has been done without even once visiting the scenes of the crimes. So
what did they have to work with? The Nuremburg evidence of course.

So how did they do a better job of determining the “truth” than the
efforts of four nations with all the man power and other resources
they needed? How indeed. Simply put, they could not do so.

The only thing they could do with the resources they had available to
them was to come up with a consistent and credible story that could be
told simply. The story had to have at least some basis in the trial
records so entirely new stories could not be invented, at least at
first. Further they were bound by certain hard requirements of the
story such as 6 million Jews regardless of how the numbers added up.

So over the years parts of the trial record have been eliminated from
the retelling of the story. They were finally able, by the 1970s to
narrow down to two means death, roving execution squads and gassing.
At no time did they add up the numbers but simply declared 6 million
else if they had the total would not be six million. Thus when three
million fewer were gassed at Auschwitz then three million more were
shot by the roving bands.

These writers (perhaps better known referred to as story tellers as
they wove a modestly credible story from incredible details in the
formal record) have succeeded in establishing the orthodox view of the
holocaust.

What they have not done is equally interesting. They have not gone
beyond the tribunal records. Thus when there is there is
documentation of liberated camps that indicates an ugly story they let
it stand. Wheras a historian would document how the camps came to be
in the condition found they rather let the image stand that the camps
were in such condition from the moment they were constructed.

Thus these writers are clearly acting as storytellers. It is the
story of human evil upon the innocent which ends in the triumph of
good with the establishment of Israel. It is the story of a reward
for suffering. The descent into hell to later rise to heaven and
become a god.

Thus in telling the story, the worse the hell the greater the reward.
Where the storytellers have failed is in finding a way for those who
suffer to have caused the triumph. Those being rewarded are supposed
to triumph over evil by their own labors.

Thus the struggle becomes the post war struggle to found Israel.
Whereas a historian would trace the Zionist movement from the late
1800s through 1947. But the prewar part is rarely discussed in the
context of the holocaust by the storytellers. The complete story is
something that simply can not be properly told because the mythos
lacks the struggle of the innocent to end the evil.

Interestingly the Cold War prevented the Russians from being portrayed
as the saviors. It became politically infeasable to link the jewish
members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union as having saved
their fellow Jews. It simply would not have played in the west during
the Cold War.

Thus lacking a mythic element it is a story told in separate parts,
the suffering and the triumph while the pre-war part of the triumph is
mainly ignored. Those who tell full story of zionism with the
holocaust in context are generally “reviled” as somehow unpleasant
people, perhaps even unclean.

But how else can the present be understood without putting the
holocaust into the context of Zionism? Are people to be left with the
impression that a return to Palestine was an idea that started in 1945
among those who were in the camps?

But if it is all told as history then the suffering a triumph elements
vanish and it clearly becomes the use of the holocaust to promote the
70 year old goal of Zionism. It changes from suffering and triumph to
a more common story of the exploitation of human suffering by those
who did not suffer for long term political goals. It becomes at best
a story of political opportunism.

=====

HTML version available upon request.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!crl.dec.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 00:28:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
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On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 12:45:11 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

=====

On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:55:00 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> It appears you were born yesterday.
>>
>> When ashes are scattered at sea they are poured out of the urn. They
>> sink.
>>
>> When ashes are buried on the family farm or some such they do not
>> float up to the surface after a few heavy rains.

>Actually, I’ve scattered ashes on the family farm in my youth, Matt. They
>are carried away by flowing water rather well.

Suddenly you have had experience. Amazing. But rather than respond
to what I wrote you imply that calcium oxide is less dense than water
when you know it is heavier than water.

This is what I mean about the willingness of holohuggers to lie to
support their gassing fantasies.

But in honesty, you know they sink. You also know the bone fragments
were ground much finer than the 1 cm sieve level.

=====

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:55:00 -0300, Keith Morrison
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Actually, I’ve scattered ashes on the family farm in my youth, Matt. They
>> >are carried away by flowing water rather well.
>>
>> Suddenly you have had experience. Amazing. But rather than respond
>> to what I wrote you imply that calcium oxide is less dense than water
>> when you know it is heavier than water.

>So? Who said that it was sudden? Did he ever imply differently?

>As for calcium oxide, it doesn’t sink too far, Matt. It dissolves quite
>easily in water.

It is good to see you agree that it both sinks and floats away at the
same time. And you are perhaps thinking of calcium carbide.

>> This is what I mean about the willingness of holohuggers to lie to
>> support their gassing fantasies.

>By telling the truth?

So which is the truth? His truth that it floats or your truth that is
sinks? In in the non-holohugger world, one of those positions are
untrue.

>More Giwerizing, Matt?

>You have made a claim.

>Prove it.

You agree with me that it sinks. You should rather address your
request to the person who claimed they float.

>> But in honesty, you know they sink. You also know the bone fragments
>> were ground much finer than the 1 cm sieve level.

>IOW – they would be carried away even more easily.

But sink.

>Damn but your toes must hurt!!

And the larger grind at A-B sinking faster.

It is good that you agree.

>> >Why, you ask? Well, since they aren’t packed that means that they can
>> >be compressed. If they can be compressed, they take up less space.
>> >Thus, less difficulty to put them somewhere, especially if they are
>> >spread out over a wide area.
>>
>> No compression equipment has ever been reported even by the most
>> creative Russian investigator.

>Spread the stuff on the ground, plow it in or simply scatter and cover.

>Let the rains hit it.

>Instant dissolution and compression.

>Throw it in the water. Instant dissolution.

>Have you switched to an Uzi for your toes, Matt?

>Your own claims are so poorly organized that they can be used by anybody
>to refute your other claims!

And the other componds that make up the bones? It will be interesting
to see if the pseudochemists here will correct you on your incorrect
dissolving premise.

>> >> Additionally you failed to consider the chemical composition of the
>> >> fragments as a sanity check upon your calculations.
>>
>> >Okay, genius. What is the specific gravity of cremated human remains?
>> >Please share with us the vastness of your knowledge. I noted that the
>> >Internet Cremation Society did *not* give a figure for this. So where
>> >is yours from?
>>
>> When you consider that it is calcium oxide …

>Another Giwerism, Matt. Please give us a figure that we can laugh – er –
>work with.

What figure would you like? Are you unable to add the atomic weights
for yourself?

>> >> Did you ever consider crosschecking your conclusions against other
>> >> facts before you post them? Or are you trying to get into the Nizkor
>> >> Hall of Fame by posting so many plausible but incorrect things, like
>> >> your “slow” river and now this?
>>
>> >People in glass houses should not throw stones, Giwer. I stated quite
>> >clearly how I was deriving my figures.
>>
>> That is why it was so easy to spot your error so quickly.

>Remarkable! An error that doesn’t exist and you spotted it?!?!

>Errr – what correction factor are your glasses again, Matt?

You do need to start reading complete threads and stop simply picking
out my posts to jump on. Make the time. You are not contributing the
way you are doing it.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58714 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:17:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:21:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:21:42 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> =

>> You are clearly supporting conspiracy to violate copyrights. Des=
>pite
>> what the fools here are talking about, “fair use” means short quotes
>> used within other contexts.
>> =

>> Read the following and see if limited scope and eduction can be
>> connected with what is done on Nizkor.
>> =

>> Neither is Nizkor a body of work that uses these infringing mater=
>ials
>> as part of a larger picture.
>> =

>> Nor is it part of an educational plan. Nor is it research. Nizk=
>or is
>> simply an accumulation (collection is too high a term for it) of other
>> people’s material, all of which are protected by copyright, including
>> all halftone images. It is quite clearly a conspiracy to steal on the
>> hightest and most open order.
>> =

>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =

>> U.S. COPYRIGHT ACT, AS AMENDED
>> …CHAPTER 1. SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT
>> =

>> =A7 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: fair use
>> =

>> Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A [17 USCS =A7=A7
>> 106, 106A] the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by
>> reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified
>> by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
>> reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
>> scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
>> determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
>> fair use the factors to be considered shall include–
>> =

>> (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such
>> use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational
>> purposes;
>> (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
>> (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation
>> to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
>> (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value
>> of the copyrighted work.
>> =

>> The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
>> fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
>> factors.
>> =

>> [Amended 10/24/92 by Pub. L. No. 102-492 which added this last
>> sentence to =A7 107.]
>> =

>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =

>> Is there something you have a problem with?

>Matt, to put it mildly – your ability to misinterpret the law is
>remarkable.

>All somebody has to do is come forward and present a single school paper
>on the Holocaust that used material from the Nizkor archives and that’s
>all she wrote for your BS.

>Also note “the nature of the copyrighted work”.

>Also “the amount and substantiality” – in this case of USENET’s total
>output or at the very least, alt.revisionism and every other newsgroup
>that you posted into.

>Also the potential market value.

>Finally – you really are a dimwit at times.

>NIZKOR IS LOCATED IN CANADA!

>You, by posting into this NG, sent the stuff here.

>NIZKOR, by the use of web pages and FTP sites, only allows retrieval of
>the material. IOW – people “carry” it back.

>So – Canadian copyright laws prevail.

>But – there is also the purpose of archival storage, which allows its
>use in research papers, ect.

>Of course, while you’re losing the case, Nizkor will have lots more
>publicity, your inbound mailbox will be flooded by every flamer who will
>scream freedom of speech, ect.

>With the publicity that Nizkor gets, people will be flocking to look at
>who this Matt Giwer is and more folks will be reading it off every
>location that has copies of your postings than ever.

>Gonna try to muzzle every place ready to mirror them, too? Going after
>DejaNews, AltaVista – every ISP that has a large message base?

>How about every archivist that KEEPS THE COPIES THAT YOU SENT?

>And – lest we forget – the CANADIAN judge will definitely assign court
>costs to you.

Do you happen to have the address of the BC Solicitor General or
whatever his or her proper title might be?

After all, if there can be criminal complaints about me, it is only
fair to complain about those who have agreed among themselves to do
this.

It is not for the copyright violation which is most likely only a
civil matter under Canadian law but for the agreement, read
conspiracy, to do so should there be anything even vaguely criminal
about it.

You know, one kid steals a candy bar and it is petty theft and if two
kids conspire to steal it, it is ten years. That sort of thing.

There is no need for any further exchange on this subject. It will
soon not be up to the opinion of anyone but those who can act on the
matter.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:30 PDT 1996
Article: 58715 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:50:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 165
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:54:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:32:14 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Your creation is far from clear. Which of your two
># non-“cellars” are the aerial photos of?

>If you were not mentally retarded, you would see them
>by now. They are right there in the photo.

>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema3.jpg

How can a cellar be in plain view on an aerial photo? Are you saying
that a plane can be directly over house and get a picture of the
cellar? X-rays?

>Did you really graduate from a university 30 years ago?
>How come? I’ve never seen an idiot like you, in any
>university I’ve ever been at.

What is a cellar? Where did you get the idea it was a cellar? It was
a morgue, remember? The Keller in Leichenkeller is misleading,
remember?

># They are not underground, they are not cellars.

>Yes they are, and their remains are still there today.

The picture Nizkor uses without the permission of Pressac shows it
partially above ground and free standing. The artist’s conception
that Nizkor pirated from some place shows it not a cellar and
partially above ground. The picture of how it looks today that Nizkor
pirated from someplace else shows no indication of anything that was
built on top of it so it does not qualify as a cellar. The aerial
photos Nizkor pirated from another source show them from above so they
are not underground and are the cellars of no other building.

Are you unfamiliar with the Nizkor resources? I find them very
valuable for their support of the revisionist point of view. You
should become familiar with them.

It only qualifies as a “cellar” if one works with Leichenkellar but
does not use the translation morgue. That was explained to me many,
many months ago when I used the literal translation of the word. Are
you saying that the literal translation is now in favor with the
holohuggers?

>Look, there is not even a fellow “revisionist” of yours
>who is making such idiotic claims as you are. Have you
>totally flipped?

You should become more familiar with the Nizkor materials that are
useed without the approval of the authors or their estates before you
make such sweeping claims.

>All the other nazi-boys agree that there were two such
>large underground cellars. None of them is stupid and
>crazy enough to deny it. Only you.

Ah, yes. Undergound and clearly visible on all the above ground
pictures.

># (Do not forget your folks have already insisted that
># Leikenkellar means morgue not that it is a cellar, in
># english that is.)

>It’s “keller”, you imbecile, and it means “cellar” in German,
>as you could have guessed were you not a stupid monkey.

But as I was informed by you among many, Leichenkeller means morgue
and NOT moldy cellar. When did you change? A morgue can be on the
top floor of a building. A morgue does not have to be under the main
structure.

>## It’s a well-known fact. It is mentioned in the testimonies.
>## They are mentioned in the inventory list. It’s on the web.

># Only at the ones in Germany which were not gas chambers as
># you well know.

>No, you damned senile ape. I’m talking about testimonies
>and inventory list for Auschwitz.

>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Invntry.jpg

>There were gas chambers in Germany, BTW.

Tell it to Wiesel and Wiesenthal. When you have their agreement, get
back to me. At the moment, they agree with me, not you.

>You’re a senile piece of rotting dreck. It’s amazing that there
>was someone kind enough to employ a monkey like you till you
>were 46 years old. You’re the most stupid piece of trash I saw
>in my life.

For a mathematician who has never posted even multiplication that is
rather difficult to support.

BTW: these are the real dimensions

length width height
30 7.75 2.5

meaning 581.25 cubic meters, not 500.

And have you posted your calculation as yet?

>-Danny Keren.

>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

=======================

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

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From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 09:27:31 PDT 1996
Article: 58716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:53:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 12:57:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:55:26 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>

>snip]

>> # (Do not forget your folks have already insisted that
>> # Leikenkellar means morgue not that it is a cellar, in
>> # english that is.)

>This from the boob who, in article
><[email protected]>, claimed that Leichenkeller meant:

>”Keller = cellar. Leichen = Leichen.”

But now Danny-boy is telling me that Keller mean cellar.

>> It’s “keller”, you imbecile, and it means “cellar” in German,
>> as you could have guessed were you not a stupid monkey.

>Indeed. To taunt the Giwer-boob imbecile further: Leichen = corpse. Keller
>= cellar. Ergo, Leichenkeller means, literally, “corpse cellar.” That
>translates to “morgue” in English.

It is good for you to remind him of this exchange as he does not
appear to remember it nor his part in it. Now that it suits his
pruposes he makes the same insistance I originally did.

Is it not interesting that he now agrees with me?

>This, of course, did not preclude the Nazis and construction crew from
>refering to L.Keller 1 and/or 2 as cellar 1 and/or 2. Or C1 and/or C2.

>But, of course, the Giwer-boob imbecile knew this (at one point) as he had
>his face rubbed in it like a scolded puppy. Obviously, the Giwer-boob
>imbecile’s advancing senile dementia is taking its toll….

Of course you now have two boobs with the same opinion. How much did
the doc charge?

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 11:38:54 PDT 1996
Article: 58731 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:14:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:18:16 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 12:19:41 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Nele Abels wrote:

>>No, I don’t. The problems Mr. Ehrlich pointed out with the use of
>>Silicagel can be found in the text, that is true. But his point is to
>>establish a contradiction in the text by claiming that Silicagel has been
>>used for Zyklon B nevertheless. This is not true, as it can be found in
>>the correctly translated source. That Peters differentiates between
>>Silicagel and Erco is of no consequence for Mr. Ehrlich’s point, especially
>>because Mr. Ehrlich himself wasn’t aware of a potential connection
>>between these two materials, as you will find out when re-reading his comments.

>You may have missed some of the history of this discussion. Most of us
>(Mr. Van Alstein, Dr. Keren, Mr. Mazal and me) have been under the
>impression that ERCO was silica gel (I believe Pressac asserts this.).
>Mr. Ehrlich has shown that we were probably wrong.

Except … and as you know … I have posted dozens of times that
there has been NOTHING posted connecting ERCO and silica gel from any
original source.

And then given the claimed picture and the size it is quite
interesting that it could have evaporated as quickly as the wood pulp
that was used in the fumigant form, according to Degesh that is.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 11:38:55 PDT 1996
Article: 58732 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears [amused] interest
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:46:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:49:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:57:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren)

>## Who told you it didn’t have lights?

># All of you folks did from your descriptions of it.

>Examples?

># Are you now saying that it did have lights? Please be
># specific in your answer.

>Yes, it did have lights.

>Now, being a 163-IQ brilliant retired-at-46-for-obvious-reasons
>engineer that you are, you will probably claim “how come
>the victims didn’t break the lights?”.

People who bite off their own and others fingers and pull out their
own and others hair certain would not spare a few lightbulbs.

>So here’s a question for you: could WW2 Germany, a country
>that built jet planes, rockets, and submarines, also build
>a little protective grid around the lights? Think hard,
>Giwer. Think *really* hard.

But there are no such reports in any description of any interior
lighting whatsoever. We even have a posted-here picture from
Madjdenik of a gas chamber with a window. But you know that.

>-Danny Keren.

> —
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 11:38:56 PDT 1996
Article: 58739 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:38:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 174
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 4:42:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:06:49 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> On 17 Aug 1996 13:13:46 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> > [Giwer’s deliberate invasion of another person’s privacy deleted]

replaced

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

>[Giwer’s deliberate invasion of another person’s privacy deleted AGAIN]

replaced

Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN’s, Domains, and POC’s).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA

(604) 758-2499

[email protected]

Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

>> And now reposted as he deliberately chose to make public, asshole.
>
>And what is it that you’re trying to prove by doing this, Mr. Giwer?

>Please be so kind as to explain it to those of us who don’t have your
>massive IQ.

That is it not private but public information from internic and milnet
and information he deliberately made public.

If you will get a little experience you will learn that all that is
not required but was in fact voluntary. The only thing required is a
point of contact. That could have either of the co-webmasters.

So why did the man make both of them public when he did not have to do
so?

Why do you not ask him why he made it all publically available to
anyone with the brights to use whois?

(Alec, remember you ridiculing me for saying I know how to “finger”
internic? Keep it is mind.)

Beyond that, why not ask why this person with a cover as a gas pump
jockey has an address on the DOD? Do you not find it the least bit
curious? It was rather ridiculous from the beginning that that was
all he was.

Now we find that he is a US citizen working in BC and is part of the
DOD internet. Would you not like to find out what this is all about?

It is very simple for him to put down by saying, “I am a defense
contractor, so what?” And I would have to agree, so what? Lots of
people are and were. I was a contractor and more, the govenrment
itself.

I have no problem admitting that. So why do I get nightly mailbombs
for pointing out the kmcvay listings? Why do I get your claims of
“invasion of privacy” for information he has voluntarily given to the
two servers? Why do you claim it is an invasion of privacy to
advertise information he has made public when he did not have to do
so?

And guess what? As long as internic gets the check they never check
the information. You can make up a POB and a POC and they don’t care
as long as the check or credit card clears. So even the minimal POC
is a joke. A fake POC account can be created on the server if that is
too dicey.

But instead he gives information to the public domain in both cases
and there are mail bombs from an ex-Mossad agent for reporting the
milnet information. Why? Can you explain?

I have become very curious. Why are not you?

And why do you have a problem with my publicizing information that he
chose to make public?

Please answer the questions.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 14:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 58753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:46:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]><[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 10:50:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:07:19 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>
>>>The extermination plans as they pertain to the Jews have been
>>>documented here and are documented on Nizkor. Visit the site.

>> Out of the 31 million who disappeared without a trace it is unclear
>>how any but the fanciful can ascribe any particular number of either 6
>>or 12 million to this particular cause.

>What this to do with what I posted, Mr. Giwer?

I leave that as an exercise for the lurker.

What 31 million missing
>from where? What source or story is this?

Missing from Europe of course. As for a source, I thought that it was
common knowledge. What are they teaching in gradeschool history
classes these days?

>> As will all holohugger numbers, purely fanciful.

>Show us that they are fanciful using an historical method.

I prefer using the sworn evidence presented at the war crimes trials,
all of it, not just the parts that are the least absurd.

BTW: What would you know about any historic method? Or perhaps I
should ask you, what is a historical method?

It is unclear how anyone can go from the trial evidence to less than
the trial evidence with not one 1/10,000th the resources to
investigate the facts that the four countries involved used to
establish what happened. It is not the purpose of any historian to
cull the records for the least absurd parts to string together a
story. That is the job of a storyteller.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 14:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 58758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Psychological toll on the Einsatzgruppen
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:03:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 3:06:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

This is an interesting claim, that the reason for the creation of gass
chambers was to spare the psychological injury to the members of the
Einsatzgruppen.

Let us first review the bidding. In the old days they did not kill
very many. But with the reduction of the number of dead at Auschwitz
>from 4 million to 1-1.5 million, they shot roughly 3 million more. So
all that was needed was for them to shoot another 1-1.5 million out of
their 3 million and there was no need for the huge investment in four
gassing / Krema complexes.

As I have already reviewed the economics of it,
I will not go any further into that here. Now we consider the problem
of psychological injury or “toll” upon the Einsatzgruppen members.
Was there really such a thing and were the hugely more expensive
gassing / Krema complexes really the solution?

First one has to consider the times. While the Einsatzgruppen were
supposed to be in the field executing every Jew they could find,
Treblinka was in full operation. I don’t know exactly what I am
supposed to be missing here but if gassing was started as a
replacement for field executions why were both gassing and field
executions in operation at the same time?

Clearly gassing did not replace field executions.

Second, rather than commit to a huge construction and shipping project
in the event of problems with the troops, there was a faster and
easier solution that any commander would think of instantly, get fresh
Einsatzgrup personel. There are raw recruits. There are volunteers
>from the Russian front, by the tens of thousands obviously. And the
replacements need only hold out half as long as the original troops.

Clearly there was no need to replace the field execution method.

Third, what was the psychological impact? These people had already
wiped out 3 million people (given the slack from the Auschwitz
reduction) so what were 30 to 50% more? Was there suddenly a
recognized threshold? Was not the Russian front sufficient
motivation?

And are we not told that the Jewish Sonderkommandos became numb to
their work? Why did not these Einsatzgruppen personnel become numb?
Were they more human than the Sonderkommandos?

Clearly there were simple field solutions to any personnel problems.

So in this excuse for the gassing part of the story we are left with
little of interest to explain the shift to gassing vice field
executions.

It appears there is no real justification to ship people anyplace just
to gas them.

=====

HTML verson available upon request.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 16:05:45 PDT 1996
Article: 58777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wieder mit dem
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:47:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 3:51:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 13:29:35 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Marty Kelly’s information, that the Himmler speech in question is
>transcribed on thick red tape, which, at the time would have run at about
>30 ips, leads me to conclude that the quote in question, *die Ausrottung
>des judischen Voelkes* is incorrect, because the tape was _inverted_ at
>that point. What Himmler actually said was, *sekleov nehcsiduj sed
>gnuttorsua.* The key word here, of course, is *gnuttorsua*, which is
>perhaps a Masai expression used by Lettow Vorbeck’s native conscripts in
>the East Africa campaign of 1914-1918.

>It would mean, literally, *gnu tor sua*, that is, *fool of the gnu
>[it]self*, where *sua* has the same self-referential qualities in Latin as
>in Swahili [cf. Suaheli]. This in turn literally means, *child or
>offspring of a gnu*, which, bearing the generic compass of *gnu* in this
>usage, would mean, *Vieh sohn* in German, or, in Scots Gaelic, *McFee.*
>Any questions? 🙂

None whatsoever. It is now as clear as it was from the beginning.

Of course I would invite someone with vast library resources to find
not only the newspaper account of this speech being given but also the
editorial commentary upon it. That would indicate how it was taken to
mean by the people who heard the speech.

Consider Ellen Goodman’s commentary, “Let us just hope they will be
put to sleep in a humane manner like our fetuses.” (Foetii for the
whackos out there.)

Or Hitler’s comments, “Did I say that? Did I day that? He didn’t
clear that statement with me! … I regret those remarks. I have
been too busy preparing to invade Poland.”

Or Eva Braun’s remarks, “I learned all about trading Zyklon-B futures
>from reading Die Wallenstrasse Zeitung.”

Or Himmler himself, “That statement is no longer operative.”

=====

It appears that some people are trying to claim that this tape which
came out of the middle of nowhere, which HAS NOT been identified as
being even Himmler (as it was first presented here but that may of
course change quickly as it often does) yet all of the discussion is
over a translation of what is at best a draft version of a speech by
some suspected but unknown person.

Why draft? Because it was originally presented as having the
speaker’s own words on it as he, himself, personally commenting about
changing the tape. That also may change. (All holohugger posts are
subject to “prove it” in the presumption that means it was never
posted.) But in any event Himmler changing his own tape and saying so
on the tape is hardly the sort of thing one would expect to have been
broadcast.

So where do we stand?

An unknown person made a recording.

That is exactly all we have on the matter. All this crap about
ausrottung is quite a laugh when we have no solid knowledge of who
recorded it or if it was ever delivered.

But it is a cut above what the holohuggers usually present, a very
small cut.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 16:05:46 PDT 1996
Article: 58780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:58:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20 11:02:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Aug 1996 13:55:35 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 19 Aug 1996 13:33:27 GMT, [email protected] (william c
>: anderson) wrote:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: >: It is a rather modern conceit that civilians should be left harmless
>: >: during war. It is sort of a like a belief in the chilvalric ideal but
>: >: only promoted by the civilians who got in the way.
>:
>: >Is it really, Matt? A “modern conceit”?
>:
>: >Matt, can you tell me what the Peace of God was? Does the tenth
>: >century fit under your definition of “modern”?
>:
>: Perhaps I should have noted also that it was a modern fantasy that
>: there was ever a time when civilians were not harmed in war.

>If there’s anybody in the world who believes there was ever a time when
>civilians were not harmed in war, point ’em out to me. Your claim was
>that it is a modern notion that civilians SHOULDN’T be harmed in war.
>That’s an obvious falsehood.

Rather strangely if your regard a passing army extracting tribute,
food and such from the civilians as not harming them you are at least
in the running for having a straight story.

In your mythical 10th century, where did the civilians go when there
was an attack? Inside the walls of the fortification. If they were
truly not going to be harmed in any way, why did they not stay outside
where they would be safe? Or was that the one century where they did
stay outside?

Rather that “peace” of god was the same pious hypocrisy as exists
today. Many may mouth it but no one believes it.

From [email protected] Wed Aug 21 16:05:47 PDT 1996
Article: 58785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:44:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 21 1:47:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:07:27 GMT,