From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57892 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:13:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 17 Aug 1996 01:17:52 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> You are a fraud.
> This comes from a person who claims that cynanide gas should be used
>in morgues to kill flies.
Are you saying that flies and maggots are immune?
Have you found something saying that it only works on lice?
What would you suggest? SS guards with fly swatters?
Are you aware of any other insecticide at the time?
Learn some history. That was the age of flypaper. You do know that
that is, do you not?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57927 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:12:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:20:08 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected](Thomas Ander) writes:
>>
>>
>> > Crematorias leave no stench. Whatever the inmates smelled, it was not
>> > the burning of flesh; and there is much proof to that effect.
>> > Tom
>>
>> I know lots of people who have a different opinion. They live next to
>> a crematorium.
>>
>Let’s not forget that we’re also talking about crematoria designed for
>mass burning, not politeness to the surrounding country-side.
But they were NOT designed in that manner. They were all the same as
the standard Krema that would be built in the middle of any city.
The only issue is the quantity per time increment.
Now if they had built incinerators as I have suggested would be the
obvious thing to do there would have been a smell problem. But we do
not have that.
We have real crematoria.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57940 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:29:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Therefore they transported people from France and Greece
># and Italy to gas them in Poland.
>A relatively small number; most victims were Poles,
>or Soviet Jews murdered close to where they lived.
75,000 from france is relatively small and for no purpose whatsover.
># Stupid shit.
>You don’t have to use such words just because this is
>what you learned at home.
You re the math wizard who has never posted a calculation.
># Today military ball 9mm rounds cost 11 cents each. For
># 6 million dead from ALL causes that is $660,000 dollars.
>Bullets are necessary items during the war. Why waste
>them if you can kill the people with Zyklon?
Why waste the cost of transportation when those same trains can be
used to transport war materiel to the front? Wasting the trains on
people just to kill them in Poland was contrary to the war effort,
despite the cost.
And then, as any room will do for killing people, why not use a room
in France? Remember the “farmstead” that was first used at Auschwitz
for gassing? Are you saying that France, Italy and Greece had no
suitable “farmsteads”?
If you insist upon gas instead of bullets, there is still not need to
ship anyone any place. Any old farmstead will do. Or do you disagree
with the Auschwitz FAQ that Nizkor carries? If so, what is your
disagreement with it in this regard?
The rock is shipping them to gas them to save bullets.
The hard place is not gassing them in place.
You are invited to invent a way out of the middle.
># Not by any rational calculation but let me see your
># calculations for the amount needed to kill in 10-15 minutes.
>For the largest gas chambers? 4 Kg would definitely
>be enough. What is your figure?
I am interested in seeing your calculations. But we both know you
have done none. So why do you make it up?
># The gas chambers were discovered in the last five years.
>This is such an insane and stupid comment that there’s
>no use reading this anymore. They were found immediately
>after the war. You’re simply out of your mind.
Quite nonsensical. Not one document known in the 1940s refers to
them. Nothing Hoess or Gerstein says mentions them. Nothing at the
IMT mentions them.
>You’ve been a bad boy, and the .sig returns.
And I respond with a secret identity.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
McVay, Ken (KM214)
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:18 PDT 1996
Article: 57941 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:20:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3211c90c.2514[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:07:41 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># Two million of six million is one third.
>>#
>># The reference to “two million children” is not supported
>># by any of the hundreds of photographs of Auschwitz. Nor is
>># it supported by the Holocaust’s own testimonies.
>>
>>What do you mean by “nor is it supported by the Holocaust’s
>>own testimonies”? Do you mean that witnesses don’t mention
>>that many children were murdered? But they do say this.
>>
>>One indication to the percentage of children among the
>>victims is the report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about
>>the numbers of Jews murdered by his unit (Einsatzkommando 3),
>>in Lithuania, during July-November 1941. The report gives
>>a very accurate breakdown, by dates, and also classifies
>>the victims into Jewish men, women, and children.
>>
>>Some typical entries:
>>
>>[Source: ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>> Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>>
>>The Commander of
>>the security police and
>>the SD
>>Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941
>>
>>————————–
>>|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
>>————————– 4th copy
>>
>> Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
>> up to 1 December 1941
>>
>>[…]
>>
>>
>>12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
>> Jewish children 3,334
>>17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
>> Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
>>20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
>> Jewish children 403
>>22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
>> Jewish children 1,159
>>24.9.41 Riess 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
>> Jewish children 1,767
>>25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
>> Jewish children 575
>>27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
>> Jewish children 3,446
>>30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
>> Jewish children 1,446
>>4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
>> Jewish children 1,983
>>6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
>> Jewish children 962
>>9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
>> Jewish children 3,726
>>16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
>> Jewish children 1,146
>>21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
>> Jewish children 2,367
>>
>>[…]
>>
>>
>>
>>Do the calculation. I can post the complete report.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
>>
> Here’s Keren with one of his eyewitness testimony documents.
>Notice I say “one”. Do I know if it’s a forgery? Do I know if the
>Germans were reporting on the citizens rage against the Jews? Keren
>offers one, uncertainty. Photographs are far more certain. Hundreds of
>photographs of camps interees that don’t support the claim that 1/3 of
>the Holocaust victims could be children.
> All the photographs of the arrival and “selection” of people to
>Auschwitz, all those in the camp should show this ratio. Yet they
>don’t. You better come up with something more than one little
>uncertain document.
What is also interesting is the missing demographics showing the 0-17
years of age fraction of the population. 1/3 is something you would
expect to find in third world countries. 1/4 or less is what you
expect to find in industrialized countries.
But then, Jews are always special and anything found about the
Holocaust is always true and over rides any comparison to normal
reality.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 57942 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:47:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:23:11 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
>In article
>wrote:
>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele) foams at the mouth:
>>
>[snip]
>> # Now those exterminations, in contrast to the “holocaust,
>> # made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
>> # obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
>> # and/or starvation.
>>
>> The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>> of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
>>
>> All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>> with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>> saved ammunition.
>Indeed. On average 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. A rifle
>cartridge cost more than that.
1) How much more did a 9 mm cartridge cost? In the ’70s I could get
surplus 9 mm cartridges for eight cents without looking around.
2) How much total ZB was required? And while you are at it post
your complete calculation of the cost.
3) You will not do either nor will the math PhD who has never posted
one article using arithmetic.
>[snip]
>> # Zyklon-B as opposed to several other gasses available at the
>> # time was ridiculously inefficient.
>>
>> All you stupid “revisionists” can do is repeat this like
>> a lame-brained parrot. The gas was very cheap, very easy
>> to handle, and they had a great deal of experience using it.
>>
>> The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>> prisons. A natural choice.
>Indeed. It seems there is some discord in the denier camp on this issue.
>According to Mr. Kreiberg (a denier) in article
>
>”…HCN is much more poisonous than car exhaust. In the US
>execution gas chambers the convicted have only to inhale the HCN once or
>twice, and he is gone.”
>Well, either HCN is or it is not an efficient homicidal agent. It cannot
>be _both_ efficient and inefficient at the same time! Perhaps the deniers
>should put their little heads together and straighten this out amonst
>themsleves before exposing themselves to further ridicule?
HCN in ZB form is what is at issue here. Please address it in your
calculations.
>> # I guess it takes a holohugger to make insecticide into
>> # “death gas” and crematoria into “ovens.”
>>
>> I guess it takes a stupid “revisionist” to make unfounded
>> claims about technical matters without proving his point.
>Indeed. It is probably worth pointing out that nerve gaents such as Tabun,
>Sarin, and Soman were developed from “mere” insecticides by the Nazis. Not
>to mention that such highly lethal nerve agents, such as VX, can with a
>modicum of effort be developed through “dual use” programs in the same
>factories were common insecticides are produced because the manufacturing
>process is similar between the two. (Remember the U.S. concern that Libya
>was clandestinely developing nerve agents?)
How about free CO2?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:20 PDT 1996
Article: 57945 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:15:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4umte[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:46 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>
># Matt Giwer writes:
>## A revionist will never call you a name for questioning
>## what they post.
># Any fatbroads around to answer?
>And “jewboys”?
Rather I have not read that term here. But of interest to the Jews
the males are meaningless. It is only the “jewgirls” that matter.
The men are drones in a female dominated society.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 57950 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some more questions Giwer doesn’t dare to answer.
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:48:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Wed, 14 Aug 96 21:59:13 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions. His
>>lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as
>>stupid as is McVay.
>Hey, I have some more questions for you:
>1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?
I have never said that.
I have said that in the context of the times every European country
qualified as racist. In fact as recently at 1975 I heard a briefing
>from a British officer where he told the joke about the three major
“races”. (The Irish race prays upon their knees and their neighbors.
The British race regard themselves as self made men which relieves the
allmighty of a terrrible responsibility. (I forget the one about the
Scots.))
The Brits and the French and the Germans and all the rest commonly
talked about he superiority of their respective races and the
inferiority of the other races. You are invited to learn what was
said in those days.
Back then the Brits had Piltdown Man “proving” that humans first
evolved in England. The French had Cro-Magnon proving that “artistic”
man evolved in France. The Germans had Neanderthal and the NSDAP
would rather not be reminded.
Hitler himself was rather extreme in this matter but then he was only
a Corporal without any formal higher education in the field. His
opinions on the human evolution science of the time were not
particularly worse than that of any other politician. Not any better
than they are today for that matter but the subject does not come up
often these days.
So what in fact I said was, that they did not particularly stand out
as “racist” in “racist” Europe at the time.
>2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
>socialism?
As I have pointed out many times, you have it backwards. Natioal
Socialism was a part of the NSDAP political stance, platform in
today’s terms, and not the other way around. Pro or anti abortion or
pro or anti welfare does not define either the Republicans or the
Democrats. They are simply part of the positions of the parties along
with many other things.
>3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?
What do historians have to do with anything that is still on-going.
When a subject is dead for 50 years historians no longer have an axe
to grind.
Consider Alan Greenspan who knows the difference. Hyeck for another.
Read some free market economists and learn something for a change.
>4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
>SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
>mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
>Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?
If you will post it, I will have a look at it. As for my
interpretation of the document, it is hardly in need of
interpretation.
1) It speaks for itself needing only to point out that it does not
really say what some people want to believe it says.
2) It is hardly necessary that there is little evidence that
anything but workcamps was implemented, that most of it never
happened. That means, show me anything other such as sterilization of
fractional and meritorious Jews who were sterilized.
>> Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond
>>to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his
>>shell.
>I do not have a killfile on anybody, and I have been waiting for your answers a fairly long
>time. Therefore, as long as the others are searching for your non-existing answers you could
>spend you time with answering my questions. But you, obviously to cowardish to confront me
> with arguments, will probably only take refuge in childish name-calling. Not that I care much.
> It would be under my dignity to follow legal procedures to answer your calling my parents
> “murders” [sic!]
Now you have some answers.
Just what was your point in misrepresenting what I said to phrase the
questions the way you did?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:23 PDT 1996
Article: 57952 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:22:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83100 alt.revisionism:57952
On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:34:28 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:27 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>
>>>>In article <320bd0a3.4659[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>It really doesn’t matter what you write about the manuals. You must
>>>>>realize that the manuals are written for using Zyklon as a fumigant
>>>>>and not as a murder weapon aimed at humans. Geeze.
>>>>
>>>>I just looked at the manual with my revolver. It, too, does
>>>>not suggest it can be used as a murder weapon.
>>
>>>Ah, but it can. All it takes is a will and a mind to do it. The
>>>Germans had a will and to mind to use what they obviously used. It
>>>just goes to show that not many people are concerned with using things
>>>properly.
>>
>>>Surely, you can do better than that!
>>
>> Try it this way. His manual, very like the gassing witnesses, says
>>that anything a bullet strikes will disappear.
>>
>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>have his manual? Oh, you’re lying again. I see.
It is called an analogy, child. Gas someone and every bit of physical
evidence disappears.
>> As for the will to so something, the descriptions of what was supposed
>>to have happened does not match any but the grossest descriptions.
>>
>Of course they do.
Not that anyone here has been able to demonstrate. The best you folks
can do is what you just did. Claim that they do or that it has been
demonstrated but never being able to produce the evidence of if.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:24 PDT 1996
Article: 57958 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:19:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Aug 1996 21:45:29 GMT, [email protected]@ (Big Kahuna) wrote:
>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Show the physical evidence that it was used. Be the first. Start a
>>tradition.
>>
On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:41:35 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>In article <320fbf8e.1238[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>
>>>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <320bd0a3.4659[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>It really doesn’t matter what you write about the manuals. You must
>>>>>realize that the manuals are written for using Zyklon as a fumigant
>>>>>and not as a murder weapon aimed at humans. Geeze.
>>>>
>>>>I just looked at the manual with my revolver. It, too, does
>>>>not suggest it can be used as a murder weapon.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ah, but it can. All it takes is a will and a mind to do it. The
>>>Germans had a will and to mind to use what they obviously used. It
>>>just goes to show that not many people are concerned with using things
>>>properly.
>>
>>That was my point. Just because the manual does not describe
>>a use, that does not mean that such a use is either unusual or
>>unanticipated.
>>
>Show me where the the makers of Zyklon-B thought their product would
>be used to kill large numbers of human beings.
>You already admitted to the existence of that evidence.
>Please try to be consistent while you’re being wrong.
You must have me confused with someone else. I have said no such
thing.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:25 PDT 1996
Article: 57961 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain’t
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 02:03:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:03:16 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>> Hot gases is the topic, and the need for some kind of cooling system to the
>> flues.
>And _why_ would a “cooling system” be required for the _flues_? They were
>underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
>earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw.
Rather it would be a very good insulator. As little as three to six
feet down, depending upon soil type, the temperature is the year round
average for the climate. A few feet further down, the temperature is
related to core heating.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:26 PDT 1996
Article: 57969 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:06:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:17:37 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Crematoria must mean that people were gassed. It is the
># unstated assumption of almost all of the claims that the
># only reason for having crematoria in the first place was
># because there was mass gassing.
>No. The amounts of cremation furnaces do obviously
>prove that mass murder was planned and executed.
Only if you assume that impossible cremation rates in fact happened.
And in fact crematoria vice incinertators are completely against the
idea that it was planned.
But you know that.
All you can do is is your Baysian “assume it did happen” approach to
life. Such an ignoramus.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:26 PDT 1996
Article: 57977 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:40:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:59:17 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) writes:
># oh bullshit. When Reinhard Heydrich was killed, the
># Nazis had no compunction about wiping out an entire
># Czechloslovakian village. When they wanted to wipe
># a group a people out they simply did it. Hitler’s
># purge during the night of the long knives was done
># in the open.
>You’re talking about different orders of magnitude here.
># Now those exterminations, in contrast to the “holocaust,
># made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
># obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
># and/or starvation.
>The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
It is amazing they were not bright enough to starve, shoot or overwork
the other half.
>All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>saved ammunition.
Which was cheaper than the transportation system and the camps.
They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from France just
to gas them in Poland. Or would not the French “stand for it”?
># With Stalin and Pol Pot, as opposed to the Holohoax,
># you had:
>#
># No trains.
>No trains? How were all these people deported to Siberia
>and to the camps in Cambodia? They walked all the way
>to Siberia?
The starvation was done on site in the Ukraine.
># No tattoos.
>Only those spared for work were tattooed.
One more assertion that only the undocumented were gassed without
explaining how the undocumented were counted.
># No insecticide.
>Stop with this bloody rubbish already. It was a cheap
>way with which to kill many people. So it was used.
So are bullets. So is CO2 from putting them in a room and sealing it.
After all, there was no hurry as the cremation was the bottleneck
according to you folks.
># No “death-camps.”
>You heard it here, folks. No death camps in Stalin’s
>USSR and Pol Pot’s Cambodia.
Not in the Ukraine, not run by Pol Pot.
># No stories of jewish women cleaning stairs with
># their tongues.
>No sadism? Have you read about recent war crimes in Bosnia?
It appears you believe in the stair cleaning story.
># If they had wanted to gas the jews they would have
># used the most efficient gas available — not Zyklon B!
>Ok, let’s here it. What gas do you think they should
>have used?
CO2, free from breathing. If you want it faster, dump some burning
coke down your “induction columns.” It is not as though it is all
that hard to do it cheaper.
># But you want people to believe the nazis created some
># idiotic, inefficient scheme for killing jews?
>No. I think they used a rather efficient scheme.
You mean like the mass electrocutions? or the steaming?
># Zyklon-B as opposed to several other gasses available at the
># time was ridiculously inefficient.
>All you stupid “revisionists” can do is repeat this like
>a lame-brained parrot. The gas was very cheap, very easy
>to handle, and they had a great deal of experience using it.
In the Nizkor approved story of the first usage, a contractor did all
the fumigation until Fritsch had a bright idea, i.e. no experience.
We can go into the other stories later.
>The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>prisons. A natural choice.
But something as foolish as ZB is not used and would be quite a
riduculous way to go about it.
But you know that.
># I guess it takes a holohugger to make insecticide into
># “death gas” and crematoria into “ovens.”
>I guess it takes a stupid “revisionist” to make unfounded
>claims about technical matters without proving his point.
Your demonstrated technical knowledge here is on a par with your
demonstrated math knowledge, zero.
># You love comparing the Holocaust to Dresden, but the
># analogy is inapposite. For example, with Dresden we have
># the actual documents authorizing the bombing. We don’t have
># any with the Holocaust (except a spurious document or two)
># to prove that the Reich’s intent was to exterminate the Jews
># systematically.
>There are many more such documents.
Two, neither clear, amidst all the rest with no such indication.
># You don’t tatoo someone you are going to exterminate —
># no need to!
>Which is why only those spared as “fit for work” were
>tattooed, not those gassed upon arrival.
Admitting again there were no records of those “gassed” but not
exlpaining how the “gassed” were determined to be different from the
31 million who vanished without a trace.
># That sort of thoughtcontrol may be OK in Israel, but we
># Whites want the truth.
>Bwawawa. “We Whites”.
># Those inmate facilities weren’t gas chambers. The design of
># the buildings were inadequate for your silly gas chambers
>Stop repeating this like some dumb little Nazi. PROVE it.
You claim HCN is used in US gas chambers as though it was the same as
ZB. Therefore there is a need to demonstrate that
1) these morgues were useful for gassing
and
2) that they overcome the differences between US gas chambers and ZB
in application.
And that if just the beginning. You folks started “discovering” the
morgues were really gas chambers about four years ago. You folks
claim they have obvious features for mass extermination chambers. Yet
since these are the only ones ever built there is a lot more needed to
substantiate the claim of obvious.
># But instead you want me to believe that “Raid” was used,
># and that it was all a big plot to wipe out the Jews using
># insecticide, using buildings that couldn’t have functioned
># as gas chambers.
>Prove that they couldn’t function as gas chambers.
You home can function as a gas chamber. Prove it is not.
You folks bear the burden of making the claim.
You folks have never met that burden.
># Again, the difference between Dresden testimony and Holocaust
># testimony is that the latter is patently implausible.
>Yes, sure. “Puddles of melted human flesh, four foot deep”.
>People “glowing orange and disintegrating”. People “turning
>into a fine layer of gray ashes”, all these, BTW, without the
>fire even touching them. All these are “testimonies” about
>Dresden.
>You claim that a major portion of Holocaust-related
>testimonies are impossible? Prove it.
Some day you may be intelligent or honest enough to admit there is a
difference between physical evidence and testimony. If you believe
they are the same, you should accept Jesus into your heart.
># The point you keep missing over and over is that the deaths
># of Germans at Dresden and after the war were not from
># -implausible- causes,
>Garbage. You claim 6 million corpses should be presented. You
>now show me the millions of corpses of Germans who allegedly
>died after the war ended, and in the bombing raids.
>Fair is fair. Show us the corpses.
But of course, you first. And after all of these years, nothing.
># yeah, and not in anywhere near the traces which could support
># a finding they were used as gas chambers. But, ODDLY ENOUGH,
># the traces -do- support the finding that they came from
># delousing fugimant. Gee.
>And Dresden could have caught fire and burned down. Like
>Chicago. It happens you know.
And all of those gassed Jews could have been invented out of the 31
million unaccounted for. It happened, you know.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:27 PDT 1996
Article: 57983 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 10:06:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u3[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 7 Aug 1996 04:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
Schultz) wrote:
>Herr Puckler ([email protected]) wrote:
>: It is even more interesting that at no
>: time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the
>: number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.
>On your scale of “interesting”, how interesting is it that Hoess (the
>camp commandant at Auschwitz) admitted that there was mass gassing
>at Auschwitz?
How about his six different and conflicting admissions which you have
read here? If you missed them, go to DejaNews to catch up.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:28 PDT 1996
Article: 57987 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:39:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 17 Aug 1996 00:53:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 15 Aug 1996 21:16:25 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > You are incorrect. Other than that you just prove, once again, that
>you
>> >are an eccentric with rather abberant ideas. I suggest you read a book or
>two
>> >sometime.
>>
>> As I believe I also said, certain attorneys would lie about it.
> The first book your should start with is the dictionary.
The one that defines attorneys?
>> A government can not be assisted unless it chooses to be. But you
>> know that. Non-deputized citizens are not “assistants.” You know
>> that also.
>>
> As described by nazi boy, they were armed vigilantes.
Where would they get guns in his country?
>> As for the rest, I am unaware of any country that does not have the
>> power to change any criteria for citizenship at any time. As you know
>> the US is about ready to modify its rules, perhaps even the
>> Constitution to deal with the current problem.
> Don’t change the subject Matty poo. We are not talking about
>grantuing citizneship (to which you refer) but nazi boy’s proposal that people of
>an ethnic origin of which disapproves have their citizenship arbitrarily revoked.
>No government that believes in basic human rights — including and especially
>the U.S. — can do this.
He, as a citizen of his country, has every right to propose and
advocate anything he wishes within the laws of his country. Other
than that it is unclear what you are talking about. There is no
“basic human right” to live in another country.
However you may talk about a variation upon ex post facto laws and the
like to your heart’s content.
>> Or do you hold there are some rules graven in stone regarding
>> citizenship?
> Again you are trying to change the subject after making an idiotic
>statement. After citizenship is granted, I most certainly do think that the
>citizenship is written in stone. So does the U.S. A small matter of the Fifth
>Amendment and ex post facto laws, Matty poo.
Which of course can be changed.
> But it’s nice to see you attempt the philosophical justification of a
>someone who advocates such a basic violation of human rights then sending
>armed vigilantes out to round up the victims and throw them in concentration
>camps. It always a pleasure to see vermin sticking together.
Which human right is violated? Where do people get guns in Denmark?
Who put the concentration in the camp but you? Or are saying they can
not be run in a humane manner as were the US camps in WW II?
It is also a pleasure to see a pretend attorney who makes an issue of
every pretend “human right” that Israelies will not give to
Palestinians.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57988 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:16:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 01:07:40 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>> It shows how difficult it is to work with HCN, and why it is not possible
>>to kill
>Actually, Hoess says the killing wasn’t the problem. The problem in
>burning the bodies. It was fairly easy to use Zyklon-B.
Hoess says he witnessed instantaneous death in the first experimental
usage. If what you quote is true then what I quote is true.
But then Hoess also talked about Wolzec, the mysterious camp that
remains hidden to this day.
If Hoess is an authority then everything Hoess said is authoritative.
>> and remove so many people in such a short time as claimed in the
>>holoacaust litterature.
>The “literature” does not claim it was easy to do away with the dead.
>That was the problem. This why there were so many crematoriums built.
As you can read, he is talking about removing them from the “gas
chamber” which, except in two of the first use stories, begins almost
immediately, usually without gasmasks, often eating and smoking while
working.
>> I do not exclude the possibility that some people
>>may have been killed in this manner. It is only the number and the procedure
>>I question.
>So it was done then, somehow. Hoess said the killing wasn’t much of a
>problem, remember?
So why is it that only things that support the current version the
holohuggers like can be introduced?
>> It is still disputed whether there were a ventilation systems in the alleged
>>gaschambers.
>Documents show that they were ordered and installed.
You should post them some time. In the mean time, there is no
physical evidence of their ever existing.
They even ordered
>HCN detectors.
With all the fumigation going on, what do you expect?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57989 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:47:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:57989 soc.culture.german:83119
On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:45:47 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:
>In article
>>
>>If Zyklon was so hard to use and dangerous, how come
>>it was so commonly used for fumigation?
>Because it was the only efficient remedy against lice and other vermin in
>those days.
>>
>>
>> Of course, car exhaust and HCN are different; but, again,
>> we know that HCN was routinely releases into the air
>> and nothing happened to the people nearby.
>Do “we” “know” that. HCN is much more poisonous than car exhaust. In the US
>execution gas chambers the convicted have only to inhale the HCN once or
>twice, and he is gone.
>>
>>
>># 12. The Airing should continue for at least 20 hours.
>>
>>I repeat my question: are you suggesting that after people
>>were killed with HCN inside gas chambers in US prisons, they
>>remained strapped to the chair for 20 hours?
>>
>The procedure of operating gas chambers in US prisons are the following:
>
> The procedure, as laid down by law (to effect the death of the convict
>without endangering the prison staff!) is as follows:
> Firstly, the convict is strapped down in a chair in a small chamber.
> Secondly, the chamber is sealed.
> Thirdly, sodium cyanid crystals are poured into a container of
>sulphuric acid. This quickly releases large quantities of hydrogen cyanide
>gas which kills the convict within a matter of seconds.
> Fourthly, the chamber is then flushed with ammonia gas which reacts with
>the hydrogen cyanid gas to form harmless crystals.
> Fifthly, indicators are used to check that the chamber is no longer lethal.
> Sixthly, attendants (wearing gas masks and protective clothing) enter the
>chamber through an air-lock and brush the convict’s hair and clothing to
>dislodge any gas which may still adhering to them.
> Seventhly, the attendants leave and reseal the chamber and air pumps blow
>the atmospheric contents of the chamber out through a high chimney. During
>this process guards in watch-towers are evacuated to ground level.
And this one explains why there is a complete lockdown of all the
prisoners when there is a gas execution, the towers are emptied and it
is a perfect time for a break.
> Eigthly, the convict’s corpse is left left in the chamber for a further
>hour.
> Ninethly, the convict’s corpse is removed from the chamber which there
>after is thouroughly hosed down.
> As you can see, if you go through a complicated procedure it is possible
>to get the body out without waiting 20 hours. According to the established
>historiography the German concentration camp gaschambers were opened
>after app. half an hour and the removal of the bodies began immediately
>without following the above mentioned procedure.
>–
>Ole Kreiberg
>http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (Danish)
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57995 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:08:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4umte[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Aug 1996 16:09:40 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:46 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>: wrote:
>:
>: >
>: ># Matt Giwer writes:
>:
>: >## A revionist will never call you a name for questioning
>: >## what they post.
>:
>: ># Any fatbroads around to answer?
>:
>: >And “jewboys”?
>:
>: Rather I have not read that term here.
>Liar. You’ve USED that term here.
No. In fact I rather carefully keep away from terms that I do not
create such as holohugger.
>: But of interest to the Jews
>: the males are meaningless. It is only the “jewgirls” that matter.
>:
>: The men are drones in a female dominated society.
>Matt, must you keep posting on subjects of which you’re entirely
>ignorant?
All male Jews die off tomorrow and there is still a future full of
Jews. All female Jews die tomorrow and there are no more Jews in the
world.
Of course you could search around of “On Venus, have we got a Rabbi”
by William Tenn.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57996 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:48:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On 15 Aug 96 07:16:50, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
><*[*] [*] [Matt Giwer
><+[Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]] [Wed 14 Aug 96
>05:50][Thu 15 Aug 96 01:33][0]*>
> >> The only problem with this theory is that there were two
> >> underground rooms in Kremas II and III which were called
> >> Leichenkellers (morgues). Yet only one of those rooms in each
> >> building was fitted with a gas-tight door. Therefore the
> >> bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and rats would
> >> be able to eat to their hearts’ content.
> MG> There is no evidence o separate fumigation.
> MG> If you are truly claiming there was a room within the LK that
> MG> was the one used, that were were partitions within it, then you
> MG> have created a new order of impossible much like finding orders
> MG> of infinity. They were impossible enough numbers when the
> MG> entire LK was used for gassing. But your claim has produced and
> MG> “aleph sub 1” order of impossibility.
>Egads but you’re not reading, Matt.
>1. That there were 2 rooms is obvious.
For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was “gas
tight.” Why the sudden change? This went all through the discussion
regarding it having more characteristics of a bomb shelter than a gas
chamber.
Now, out of no where and for no reason, a different description is
being brought up. Can you folks ever get your straight among
yourselves before you go public?
>2. That one was gas-tight is obvious.
For at least two maybe three reasons.
>3. Why would one room be gas-tight and the other not if the purpose
> of the cyanide was fumigation?
Give me a URL to annotated drawings showing what you are talking
about.
>4. The size of the room was adequate for the number per gassing. The
> *ROOM* size was given, not the entire complex!
There is no size given above. Perhaps you could supply it? Perhaps
you could also work backwards from the stories of the number gassed in
a single day and find the time per gassing as others have done so many
times? Or are you still to busy to read enough to know what has gone
on here?
> >> not even leaving the newsgroup. I would have thought someone
> >> as smart as he thinks he is would have figured it out long
> >> ago. But of course he is not half as smart as he thinks he is.
> MG> Legal way? You mean that I should point to a law that
> MG> prohibits Nizkor volunteers from conspiring to violate my
> MG> copyright to what I post?
>Fair use, Matt.
Excerpts are fair use last time Iooked into it.
A complete archive of the entire newsgroup would also be acceptable.
You certainly know it is a conspiracy to violate my copyright. Even
YFE knows that but he remains silent on the matter.
>And don’t pull the Canadian/American schtick again. I’m talking
>about the same thing on both sides of the border.
>IOW – there is no law that prevents them from publishing your
>broadcasts.
Everything created is covered by copyright from the moment of being
set into fixed form whether or not copyright is asserted at the time.
You know that.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:32 PDT 1996
Article: 57997 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Def
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:44:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-01.ix.netcom.com
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On Fri, 16 Aug 96 00:05:00 +0100, [email protected] (ANGUS
MCLELLAN) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes
>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:30:01 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>># A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and
>>># died in a reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time
>>># prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements.
>Oddly enough, the Giwer’s beloved Nazis were none too fussy on the
>”rules of warfare”, e.g. the ‘Commissar Order’, ‘Nacht und Nebel’, the
>’Bullet Decree’, the murder of German and Czech exiles in 1940, the
>murder by ommission and commission of millions of prisoners of war, et
>cetera ad nauseam and well beyond. But don’t take my word for it.
>From Richard Overy’s “Why the Allies Won” (Jonathon Cape, London, 1995,
>ISBN 0 224 04172 X), pp 302-303.
>”Before the campaign [i.e. in Russia] the old laws of war were torn up.
>The army was issued with the ‘Commissar Order’ which permitted the
>murder of any Communist Party functionary found with the Red Army. In
>June 1941 the German army was freed by the regime from any restrictions
>under the 1899 Hague rules on the conduct of land warfare. The security
>services under Himmler were prepared to follow the armies into the
>Soviet Union specifically to murder anyone defined as an enemy of
>Germandom. Himmler asked his forces to behave with merciless violence
>against the races of the east who know ‘with animal instinct why they
>are fighting’. In July 1941 Himmler’s instructions to the security
>forces were to act against any populations defined as potentially anti-
>German or racially inferior by shooting indiscriminately all males,
>deporting the women and children, seizing food and valuables and burning
>the villages to the ground. Hitler sanctioned even the murder of women
>and children if it served his principle of preserving at all costs the
>lives of German soldiers. [75]”
>[75] See Norman Rich, “Hitler’s War Aims”, volume 1 and Omer Bartov,
>”Hitler’s Army”.
And as you know, the 1899 rules were not unilaterally binding but only
applied when signatories to it were at war with each other. And if a
signatory allied with a non-signatory then the rules were inoperative
for all the allies. That means that if any one of the countries
allied against Germany was not a signtory, Germany was not bound by
them.
Your next task is to look up which countries were signatories and
which were not.
And please do not come back with a variation upon “it doesn’t matter.”
People spend thousands of man-hours negotiating those rules. And the
specific terms under which they became inoperable were put there for a
reason.
>> That is called a reprisal. The same thing was done in France.
>Apart from the one-off occurence at Oradour, where and when ? Even if it
>had been the norm – which, most fortunately for the French, it was not –
>how could that possibly excuse such behaviour in the Nazi-occupied parts
>of the USSR ?
It is still in question just what in fact happened and what was
Russian war propaganda. And it is of interest to note that any male
of any nationality that could hobble onto the battlefield was given a
rifle and pointed towards the Germans and if they turned around were
shot by the Russians.
Where are those people documented? No where, but it explains a lot of
missing people. Add to that the conditions of winter under worse
conditions than the recent ones in Bosnia
>
No answer I see.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:33 PDT 1996
Article: 57998 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:37:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4un03j$[email protected]> <4us6cs$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <3211c4a5.1[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:41:31 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>> Unless you have access to something other than Nizkor, what we have is
>>>as follows. A film negative chosen for the best performance for
>>>aerial surveillance pictures. Then we have the type of development
>>>chosen as best for such pictures. Then we have a halftone image
>>>created for a book. Finally we have a scan by someone of unknow skill
>>>in making a good scan.
>>>
>>> If I have to state the obvious, the only way to seriously deal with
>>>the picture is to
>>>
>>> 1) get the negative
>>>
>>> 2) get the characteristics of the film
>>>
>>> 3) make a neutral scan at greater than the grain size.
>>>
>>> Without these three it is good only for gross analysis.
>>
>> Intentionally making photos obscure is a common practice of the
>>Holocaust dependents.
>>
>Here it is folks! When you are beaten by a piece of evidence, claim it
>has been doctored in some fashion or is distorted. Do this without
>presenting any evidence at all. Do this by saying so!
>Amazing. These folks are always true to form.
You obviosly can not read but if it did state what you claim then you
folks should be jumping on it to explain why they do not support your
claims about them. Or should I post the picture with comments again?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58001 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:51:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <321480ba.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Aug 1996 09:19:47 -0700, [email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>Alec Grynspan
>> The Jews were here last. The development of writing occurred over
>>a long period of time, with the last great contribution coming from
>>the Phoenicians.
>>
>> The Meso-Americans left a great history of art, as did the
>>Phoenicians and everyone else. Everyone but the Jews. They had to have
>>the same build their temple. They had no skills or culture.
>>
>> The Phoenicians and the Hebrews lived next to each other. They
>>were two entirely two different cultures.
>>
>> History books and history art books might have twenty of thirty
>>pages on various societies, but when it comes to the Hebrews, maybe
>>one page.
>>
>> Any boats the Hebrews ever had, they had to have the Phoenicians
>>build them for them. If anyone ever got to the Americas from the
>>Mediterranean it would have been the Phoenicians, and the Hebrews
>>would have been the least likely.
>Hitler was smarter than Churchill!
>Hitler was a better dancer than Churchill!
Does this mean you are a Yankee Doodle Dandy?
>-rich
> [blue-ribbon disclaimer: it’s called sarcasm, son, SARCASM]
> censor the internet! http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/
> boycott fadetoblack! http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 58002 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:54:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:43:55 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># All you can do is is your Baysian “assume it did happen”
># approach to life. Such an ignoramus.
>There is nothing about the Bayesian approach that “assumes
>it did happen”.
>I told you already. You’re a zero, a failure.
>You can’t handle basic arithmetic, yet you pretend
>to understand higher mathematics.
>You’re a joke.
We are all still awaiting you to post your first numeric analysis of
anything having to do with the gassing.
You can not or you will not because the results are against gassing.
>See below.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
McVay, Ken (KM214)
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:35 PDT 1996
Article: 58021 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor conspirators
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:25:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 5
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Without question one director and two volunteers have agree, read
conspired, to violate copyright protected material.
Why are these people being protected because they are holohuggers?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:36 PDT 1996
Article: 58030 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph – zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:32:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:14:17 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># I have been through a real world test of Baysian stats.
># I funded it. I mean like out of my budget.
># I have no idea why people continue to play around with it.
>Because it works.
>Call ARPA and tell them to halt their project on
>detecting roads in aerial images. It uses Bayesian
>analysis. Just one example.
If 1/10th of what ARPA does pays off, they call a celebration.
>You’re talking about things of which you don’t
>have a clue. You don’t know anything about mathematics
>or its applications.
>Define Bayesian analysis, and show how it is applied,
>for instance, to restore images. Go ahead. I am waiting.
>You don’t know anything about any technical matter, as
>is proven here every day.
>You’re a sad clown.
And you are the one who has NEVER responded to a calculation with
another calculation.
You are either unable to do it or you know that if done honestly it
does not support your holohuggery.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 58066 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.privacy,alt.censorship,alt.whistleblowing,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,dc.politics,alt.law-enforcement,misc.legal,us.legal,sci.econ,alt.politics.corruption.mena,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.latin-america,alt.politics.economics,alt.drugs,talk.politics.drugs,alt.drugs,sci.med
Subject: Re: CLINTON: Reverses Pursuit of “Most Wanted” Drug Banker
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:21:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 138
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:34:55 GMT, [email protected] (stephenh)
wrote:
>U.S. Lets Drug Banker Off
>Narcotics continue to flood America as officials turn a blind eye
>to the real culprits: crooked politicians both here and abroad,
>and the North American Free Trade Agreement, which leaves our borders
>wide open to drugs from Mexico, Columbia and other countries.
>BY MARTIN MANN
>August 19, 1996
>With federal anti-narcotics programs already in hopeless disarray,
>the Clinton administration was jolted last month by the discovery
>that the international drug banker at the top of its “most wanted”
>list, millionaire financier Harry Beda, was an agent of
>the Mossad, Israel’s secret service.
>”Beda was arrested by the Columbian police in June and
>charged with running a huge money-laundering network that linked
>Miami to a number of Latin American cities,” says Quilli Osorio,
>a Mexican reporter. “The U.S. demanded to get custody of him
>right away– until they found out he was an Israeli. Then they
>dropped it in a hurry.”
>But the report that the ministate’s money movers were once again
>in the midst of the booming “coke and smoke” trade was only one
>of the ticking time bombs the U.S. drug enforcement chiefs
>were handed in recent weeks, law enforcement sources say.
>One of the front companies for Beda’s cocaine cash conduits,
>known as the Orexana Corp. of Hialeah, Fla., was found
>to have contributed thousands of dollars in laundered drug cash
>to the election campaigns of then Sen. Al Gore (D-Tenn.)
>and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), former chairman of the Senate
>subcommittee on narcotics and terrorism.
>Such payoffs have become commonplace among American politicians,
>according to a faceless witness identified only as “Maria”
>who appeared under heavy security guard at a hearing held
>by Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.), the powerful chairman of the Senate
>Foreign Relations Committee, in Washington earlier this month.
>Shielded from TV cameras by a backlit screen, Maria was described
>as a member of Columbia’s elite political establishment involved
>in funneling millions of dollars fromthe Cali cocaine cartel
>to the campaign of President Ernesto Samper.
>Her testimony left no doubt that Samper had actively solicited–
>and on occasion personally accepted– a grand total of $6 million
>from a consortium of vicious drug wholesalers.
>Under pressure to “do something,” the Clinton administration
>declared Samper *persona* *non* *grata* and lifted his U.S. visa,
>as well as the required “certification” of his government
>as an honest enforcer of international narcotics regulations.
>”But Columbia is not the only culprit. There is new evidence
>that the election of Panamanian President Ernesto Perez
>Balladares, favored by the Clinton administration,
>was also financed by drug bankers,” Osorio said. “And this graft
>does not stop south of the border.”
>NAFTA
>In fact, the greatest single boon the drug trade has enjoyed
>in recent years has turned out to be the U.S.-sponsored
>North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), law enforcement
>experts say.
>In an attempt to justify the Clinton administration’s support
>of this pernicious pacet, U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin
>has been boasting in recent weeks about Mexico’s ability
>to make good on some of the bailout credits it received
>from Washington last year.
>”Rubin says we collected hefty interest payments, too, and made
>a profit on some of these emergency loans,” says Harry Prebisch,
>a former executive of Keefe, Bruyette, the leading Wall Street
>broker of bank securities. “What he forgets to add
>is that such Mexican debt financing almost invariably
>represents laundered drug profits. It is the only booming
>growth industry south of Tijuana.”
>Veteran federal drug enforcement experts privately agreed
>with his blunt conclusions.
>”Most of the capital investment going into Mexico’s economic
>infrastructure comes from drug proceeds these days,” confirmed
>Jack Kelley, the U.S. Customs agent in charge of San Diego
>field office.
>His colleague, Craig Chretien, director of operations for
>the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in San Diego, voiced
>similar views. Goldman, Sachs, a leading Wall Street
>investment bank headed by Rubin before he joined the incoming
>Clinton administration in 1992, helped set up a number of
>consulting firms to show Mexican exporters how they can profit
>from NAFTA.
>GET JOBS
>Now many of these advisers have been hired by Mexico’s drug magnates
>looking “for someone knowledgeable to counsel them about taking
>better advantage of NAFTA,” says Chretien.
>In the U.S., cocaine and heroin “have never been cheaper or
>more plentiful,” admitted Gen. Brian McCaffery, the Clinton
>administration’s new drug czar in a recent TV interview.
>One result is that emergency-room admissions of youths under
>18 suffering from drug overdoses have just about doubled
>during the past 12 months, warning that narcotics are no longer
>just one among numerous public-health problems: they are becoming
>a plague.
>Copyright by The SPOTLIGHT Newspaper
>Liberty Lobby, Inc.
>300 Independence Avenue SE
>Washington, DC 20003
>Subscription: 800 522 6292
If Israel is involved it is safe from public notice as was the
Israel-Iran-Contra affair.
The US can do anything illegal or immoral as long as Israel is
involved as the US media will not make an issue of anything involving
Israel. It is an amusing bit of religious politics but far from
separtation of church and state.
But there, there is only double talk when it come to Jews being a
religion or a superstitious bunch of idiots without a common faith.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:38 PDT 1996
Article: 58086 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:01:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 12:04:07 AM PDT 1996
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On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:15:09 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >Now for the $64 questions.
>>
>> >1. What happens to calcium carbonate when heated?
>>
>> >2. What happens to that(1) when placed in water?
>>
>> >3. What happens to that(2) when exposed to CO2?
>>
>> When bones are heated the small bones will go down to ash. The large
>> bones become brittle from the loss of the organic material that kept
>> them flexible. At the end of the cremation process they are ground to
>> some fragment size.
>>
>> Exposure of this relatively inert material to either water or CO2
>> results in nothing.
>Water and CO2 form an acidic solution.
That is not what was stated, fool.
>Bone exposed to an acidic solution will dissolve.
>Next stupid comment?
Lets get back to your claim that boundary flow rates are the same as
the middle of the river flow rates, oh great expert on rivers.
Are you ready to admit you made that one up out of whole cloth just to
convince the lurkers?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 58164 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:37:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 568
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3$[email protected]> <320fb[email protected]> <8d7c[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83189 alt.revisionism:58164
On 17 Aug 1996 22:29:12 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> Want to address the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that HCN
>>causes in your reality?
> Want to address the fact that no witness ever said this, confessed
>liar?
It is found in
Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot
which is carried by Nizkor where I found it.
Are you saying Nizkor spreads false stories without foundation in
addition to Bernard Naumann making up things like thing?
Are you suggesting the original source was not a witness?
Who do you suggest fabricated this account?
Why is it you only question the stories that are so absurd that even
you can see it?
Which of the other stories do you challenge? The one where Hoess says
he was watching it or the one that says he was out of town?
Browse them all and tell me which two of the three are false.
A Tale of Three Gassings
What you are going to read are We find unexplainable We even find an absolutely | |||
Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, | KL Auschwitz as seen by SS Hoess, Broad and Kremer, second | Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ various sources embedded in text | commentary |
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be | “The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. | Auschwitz had been receiving | Note that different people are involved in the different stories. |
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing | It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it | thought of an expedient new method Two experts had fumigated | In the first story the companions Note also that person knocked out Note further that it is not a |
To Breitwieser, this seemed to | Note that these pellets is given | ||
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one |
| On September 3 Fritsch decided to | Note that both the number and the |
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one | In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the | Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas After they left, the doors | Note that the first story appears Note in the third story there is a Note also that this separate and Note also Höss clearly states |
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the | In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the | Other sources indicate that even | Here we have a strange set of |
Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their |
|   | Here we have a description worthy Go back and read about the And then somehow this particular When impossible things are claimed |
We have two different people getting In one story it is 1000 Russians. In In one case the pellets are dropped In neither case is the room large In the first story there is a very In the former story the impossible One has to wonder how people who | |||
1also found on Nizkor, sort of a holocaust 2 “The gassing was carried out in the detention cells 3 Zyklon for Pest Control, A
Composition In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid 4The common mis-identification is generally attributed | |||
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 58202 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:52:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3[email protected]> <4uufgb$3[email protected]> <32147894[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83203 alt.revisionism:58202
On 17 Aug 1996 22:44:30 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:34:28 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>>> Try it this way. His manual, very like the gassing witnesses, says
>>>>that anything a bullet strikes will disappear.
>>>>
>>
>>>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>>>have his manual? Oh, you’re lying again. I see.
>>
>> It is called an analogy, child. Gas someone and every bit of physical
>>evidence disappears.
> Bad analogy, then.
> The bodies themselves were made to disappear. Ample documentation of
>the crematoria and the ovens used to burn the bodies exist –
>correspondence between Topf u. Sohne and the SS, bills, orders, etc. This
>documentation is physical evidence.
How many thousand tons of ashes were found? How many large deposits
of ashes were found?
After you get passed none, what is your response?
> And of course there is the physical evidence Matt has been presented
>but pretends not to have seen.
> Cyanide traces in the Kremas. He has yet to give an honest response
>to the flaws I pointed out in his claim that this was from fumigation.
You have presented none as there has yet to be any valid study of the
matter. Unless you have your own unpublished study, there still is
none.
>(He has yet to understand that there were two different underground rooms
>in Krema II, and that both were called “morgues” on the construction
>drawings, but only one could be fumigated.)
You have yet to demonstrate any such thing. Post the drawings and the
reasons why only one could be fumigated. Did not HCN evaporate in one
of the rooms? More Nazi physics at work?
> A letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a “gassing cellar.”
> A letter from Becker to Rauff about gassing vans, confirmed by Rauff
>in a deposition he gave in Chile.
> A gas-tight door with the inside protected by a wire-mesh grille. (In
>order to protect people inside a bomb shelter from glass splinters, it
>would make more sense to use a solid plate on a swivel.)
Is there not some rule here against “I can think of a better way?” Or
does that rule apply only in one direction? And need I ask?
But then why not explain why a peephole in an unlighted room without
windows is of any value? What did the SS see in the dark? Or could
the SS see in the dark?
Or are you suddenly going to discover lightbulbs and interior wiring
and switches for the first time?
> An inventory sheet listing showerheads in a room whose construction
>drawings show no plumbing for showers. (Matt has consistently
>misrepresented this point – it is not the lack of physical plumbing which
>is significant, but the lack of _plans_ for that plumbing even on drawings
>which show the other plumbing in the room.) This physical evidence
>corroborates the eyewitness testimony of dummy showers.
Excuse me one more time but such plans have never been posted. Would
you please do so from the book you have which carries the complete
plans for the building? And then will you explain how ZB pellets get
through showerheads?
Where are the drawings of the mechanism to release it from ZB and move
it through the showerheads without piping that is? Or are you
formally abjuring the old truth just like an antisemite?
And where were these showerheads save in Germany were there were no
gas chambers according to Wiesel and Wiesenthal?
>>>> As for the will to so something, the descriptions of what was supposed
>>>>to have happened does not match any but the grossest descriptions.
>>>>
>>
>>>Of course they do.
>>
>> Not that anyone here has been able to demonstrate. The best you folks
>>can do is what you just did. Claim that they do or that it has been
>>demonstrated but never being able to produce the evidence of if.
> The best Matt Giwer can do is lie.
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
As a contributor, Stein, you are also a conspirator in violating my
copyright in the material I write. Keep it coming. I love it.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:41 PDT 1996
Article: 58206 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:08:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58206 soc.culture.german:83206
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:18:59 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:
>In article
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>Holger Skok wrote:
>>>>Ole, just look at the agenda of the CSU, the “Republikaner”, the DVU and the
>>>>NPD. Even though members of the former will hate it to be named in one
>>>>sentence with the remaining three, all of them are very firmly against
>>>>immigration.
>>
>>Then the Kreiberg responded:
>>> Today it is still permitted in Germany to be against immigration, but for
>>>how long? Little by little there will be initiated new laws to combat
>>>”racism”, and these parties will be prohibited too. Germany is on it’s
>>>way to become a real totalitarian society. The German government seems
>>>even willing to put down things that do not have the slightest to do with
>>>politics and ethnicity. Severe measures have already been taken against
>>>Scientology and measures are planned against Transcendental Meditation.
>>>Everything which do not conform with the worldview and ideology of the
>>>German government are to be suppressed. Germany is today the biggest
>>>menace to freedom and democracy in Europe, just like it was in 1939.
>>>
>>> If the Germans just could keep all that in their own country, but through
>>>the European Union and in other ways they work hard to restrict fundamental
>>>rights in other European countries.
>>
>>I’d sure be very surprised if the CSU was ever to be prohibited. That would
>>require that our government outlaw itself – not exactly the likeliest
>>thing to happen in any country on the planet. But you’re welcome to repeat
>>silliness like this one, because that shows pretty clearly how serious
>>your paranoid observations have to be taken.
>>
>I was hinting at the “republikanern” and DVU. CSU can just change and adapt
>it’s policy.
>>I think that it is pretty obvious that the aims of $cientology are
>>incompatible with important parts of our constitution and so being
>>in public office and being a member of that “church” are incompatible.
>But scientology is no political movement.
Which demonstrates how far the politically correct of the holohugger
persuasion will go to invent a point.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58211 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:44:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83211 alt.revisionism:58211 talk.politics.european-union:5696
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:47:02 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>Holger Skok wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>I am still waiting, too, on an explanation for the dismissal of all the
>>>documents,
>>>testimonies and circumstantial evidence all corroborating the mass gassings
>>>at Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Revisionists have to disregard
>>>all this and I’d like to know what they give as a reason for doing so.
>>If you take a closer look on following websites
>>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg or
>>http://www.codoh.com
>>you will find answers.
>But if you’re interested in the truth, and not psychological paranoia,
>then enter nizkor.almanac.bc.ca and read something that is true.
>(which is very rare if you look at this newsgroup).
>SUPPORT THE NIZKOR PROJECT!
You are clearly supporting conspiracy to violate copyrights. Despite
what the fools here are talking about, “fair use” means short quotes
used within other contexts.
Read the following and see if limited scope and eduction can be
connected with what is done on Nizkor.
Neither is Nizkor a body of work that uses these infringing materials
as part of a larger picture.
Nor is it part of an educational plan. Nor is it research. Nizkor is
simply an accumulation (collection is too high a term for it) of other
people’s material, all of which are protected by copyright, including
all halftone images. It is quite clearly a conspiracy to steal on the
hightest and most open order.
=====
U.S. COPYRIGHT ACT, AS AMENDED
…CHAPTER 1. SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A [17 USCS §§
106, 106A] the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by
reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified
by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news
reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),
scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include–
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such
use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational
purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation
to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value
of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors.
[Amended 10/24/92 by Pub. L. No. 102-492 which added this last
sentence to § 107.]
=====
Is there something you have a problem with?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58219 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:58:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:32:38 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:
>In article
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>> In article
>>> >In article
>>> >Kreiberg) wrote:
>>> >
>>> Hey, where in the …. is Ostland?
>>
>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East.
>>
>>>…It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.
>>
>>Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
>>even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
>>rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
>>history, on the peoples who lived there.
>>
>>The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
>>least of whom’s victims were several million Jews.
>>
>So Ostland was like “Westland” to the Americans 200 years ago – A place to
>conquor and settle. A lot of Red Indians were deported from the east to
>US “Westland”. Oklohoma started out as such dumping ground for Red Indians.
>One of those events of Red Indians being deported is called something like
>the long march of tears. Have you Americans forgotten about that? Is the
>reason that you Americans are so busy remembering German history that you
>hope German atrocities may overshadow your own which thus may be forgotten?
It is a rather modern conceit that civilians should be left harmless
during war. It is sort of a like a belief in the chilvalric ideal but
only promoted by the civilians who got in the way.
It is quite an amusing fantasy that is promoted about that particular
war despite their clear knowledge of what has happened to people in
other wars. Vietnamese civilians were chewed up by both sides in that
war. Yet although it was clearly started by the North there are
people here who will defend the North for starting that war regardless
of what happened to the civilians.
In many apects it is similar. The guerrila troops lived of village
tribute, conscripted young men, killed off the leaders of any village
to even spoke against them, did a little decimating or worse if any
village resisted, women and children included.
So they know what war is really like and yet they pretend there was
something different when the Germans did it. But then that is not the
answer. The answer is the small fraction of Jews who got caught up in
it compared to the 31 million who vanished without a trace.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58225 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: African-Americans, tired of all that White supremacy?
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:32:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4t[email protected]> <32036[email protected]> <32[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 16:32:43 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Anonymous)
>wrote:
>[racist diatribe deleted]
>Gee, I don’t know. First of all, I wouldn’t believe ANYTHING said by
>someone who doesn’t have the gonads to post his/her name.
>
>Anonymous people are cowards. Prove _ME_ wrong.
Like our favorite holohogger, Marduk, who is a coward and ho
holohugger of the first order.
He is an animal like all holohuggers.
But then all holohuggers are animals.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:44 PDT 1996
Article: 58238 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:55:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 01:31:33 +0000, Stig
>Thing is, I’ve read a couple of interviews with and he’s said that the
>”UFO REsearch” stuff was basically a sensationalistic way for him to
>raise easy cash from fringe-types to finance his revisionist exploits.
>It’s certainly not necessary now that the hate prosecutions he’s
>undergone have upped his profile and made him a millionaire, but I’m
>sure it’s a good sideline, and might sucker some X-Files types into his
>neo-Nazi lair!
Your ignorance of UFOlogy is is touching. Zundel was a child when the
first UFOs are Nazi inventions story came out. It was mainstream
speculation between 1947 and 1957 or so when the media started to drop
UFO coverage.
You really have to get the mindset of the war propaganda of the times.
Nazis were credited with every imaginable (and mostly imaginary)
superweapon. In fact a very well received movie regarding Nazis
cloning supermen in Brazil was a major success despite its impossible
biology as little was 20 years ago.
If Zundel was a ripoff so what the movie.
Boys from Brazil, right up there with “Amazon Women from the Avocado
Jungle” as a B movie but because of the performances and the
performers it gets a “credible” rating, regardless of being as equally
idiotic as Nazi UFOs.
It is a touch like Shindler’s List. It gets away with cloning in the
same manner that Star Wars gets away with its nonsense. All Science
Fiction should be grouped together.
Nazi UFOs, Boys from Brazil and Star Wars are all fantasies of the SF
kind.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:45 PDT 1996
Article: 58239 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:11:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:14:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from
># France just to gas them in Poland. Or would not the French
># “stand for it”?
>I responded to this in my reply to “kurtstele”.
You did not. Please repost your claim.
># Not in the Ukraine, not run by Pol Pot.
>What about the gulags? How many people were shipped
>there by trains? The Soviets could do it, and the
>Nazis couldn’t?
The Soviets documented every one of them and also recorded the death
of every one of them and there is no disagreement in the numbers. If
you do not invent gassing the Nazi numbers agree with the registered.
>## Ok, let’s here it. What gas do you think they should
>## have used?
># CO2, free from breathing. If you want it faster, dump
># some burning coke down your “induction columns.” It is
># not as though it is all that hard to do it cheaper.
>Too slow.
As you know the “cremation” was the bottleneck. There was no need for
speed when cremation could not keep up.
>Funny thing is the following. Suppose the Nazis would have
>killed people that way. Then, as we know well, the
>”revisionists” would be saying “why kill people with
>such slow, idiotic, primitive methods, when you have
>numerous quantities of Zyklon-B around, which can do
>the job within minutes, and is very cheap?”.
So you presume they could tell the future? How strange.
>## The same gas, HCN, is used to execute people in US
>## prisons. A natural choice.
># But something as foolish as ZB is not used and would be
># quite a riduculous way to go about it.
>Look, you sorry imbecile. It makes no difference. It releases
>the same gas – HCN – which is used to kill people in gas
>chambers in US prisons.
Not in the same time frame as you well know a a mathematician even
though your REFUSE to post any calculations.
>Can’t you miserable drecks understand that it doesn’t
>matter what the source of the gas is? That it will kill
>people nontheless?
NOT as described by your favorite witnesses as you well know.
>## There are many more such documents.
># Two, neither clear, amidst all the rest with no
># such indication.
>This, from someone who claimed Belsen camp was in Poland.
>I told you already, you don’t know anything.
>There are many more than two documents proving an
>extermination plan.
There are still only two.
># You folks started “discovering” the
># morgues were really gas chambers about four years ago.
>You demonstrate your insanity once again. The location
>of the Birkenau gas chambers was well-known since
>the liberation.
You are requested to post that in explicite form from any or all of
the IMT records. Please show explicitely that they were described in
testimony.
But you know that we have been over this and NOT ONE post desecribed
the LKs in any manner of interest. You know it but you post to the
contrary, knowingly doing so.
># You home can function as a gas chamber. Prove it is not.
>There are no witnesses who say it functioned as a gas chamber.
What do witnesses matter? Have you never heard of the McMartain Day
Care Center trial?
>There are no cyanide compounds on the walls.
What does that matter? And how do you know, oh one data point lover?
>There are no documents which prove it was used as a gas
>chamber.
It meets the criteria.
>Stop being such a fool.
Learn some arithmetic you lying bastard.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:46 PDT 1996
Article: 58248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:30:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4v0rv5[email protected]> <4v3601[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:34:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:21:06 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article
>>Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele)wrote:
>>>>
>>>> # Now the exterminations [of Stalin and Pol Pot], in contrast to the
>>”holocaust,
>>>> # made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
>>>> # obvious and efficient means of killing — by bullet
>>>> # and/or starvation.
>>>>
>>>> The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
>>>> of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
>>>>
>>>> All your empty rhetoric can’t hide the fact that killing
>>>> with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
>>>> saved ammunition.
>>
>>>Indeed. On average 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. A rifle
>>>cartridge cost more than that.
>>
>>>Mark
>>
>>Care to show your calculations in achieving $.08?
>>
>>Why don’t you do your calculations over again, this time factoring in, as
>>you should have done before, the costs of -everything else- involved in
>>”gassing” prisoners under the circumstances.
>>
>>You’re saying that shipping prisoners across the European continent by
>>train, during a war, to tag them, house them, and then gas them, using up
>>valuable resources in energy, manpower, and cost of upkeep and “deathcamp”
>>administration, is -cheaper- then just shooting them dead on the spot?
>>
>Clue #1: The state didn’t pay for it. As Hilberg shows in his
>_Destruction of the European Jews_ the funding for the one way tickets
>was paid for by the Jews themselves. Confiscated property and moneys
>made it possible to take the state off the hook.
And you really believe that the railraods were the only onew who stood
up to the Nazis and demanded Reichmarks in payment else they would not
do as ordered.
You have a very strange view of a Fuehrerstadt.
>They did try shooting them dead, but the reports from those in the
>field showed that the shooters were stressed out about it. They had to
>come up with a different way. Shooting was taking a psychological
>price out of the soldiers and local police forces assigned to do the
>shootings. I suggest you read the histories by Christopher Browning.
>_Ordinary Men_ comes to mind.
Excuse me but it would take only one pathological type to operate the
machinegun after they were lined up.
But to follow your line of reasoning, on Jewish Sonderkommandos could
stomach gassing thousands at a time.
Is this another manner in which Jews are superior to Germans even if
they are German?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:47 PDT 1996
Article: 58249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:34:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:38:14 AM PDT 1996
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On 18 Aug 1996 03:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
> [Giwer’s invasion of another’s privacy snipped]
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.
> Gee Matty poo, it’s nice to know that, when in a drunken rage, can
>repeat a post you have made several times in the past. But now prove that you
>can explain some of your past lie. For example, why don’t we start with your
>statement that there were convictions of Germans at Nuremberg for massacring
>Polish soldiers at Katyn Woods and that several defendants were hung for that
>crime.
> –YFE
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
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From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:48 PDT 1996
Article: 58250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:34:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:38:28 AM PDT 1996
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On 18 Aug 1996 03:57:42 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
> [Giwer’s invasion of another’s privacy snipped]
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.
> Gee Matty poo, it’s nice to know that, when in a drunken rage, can
>repeat a post you have made several times in the past. But now prove that you
>can explain some of your past lie. For example, why don’t we start with your
>statement that there were convictions of Germans at Nuremberg for massacring
>Polish soldiers at Katyn Woods and that several defendants were hung for that
>crime.
> –YFE
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:49 PDT 1996
Article: 58252 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:06:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 18 11:10:21 PM PDT 1996
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On 17 Aug 1996 13:35:14 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> On 17 Aug 1996 00:53:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> > Don’t change the subject Matty poo. We are not talking about
>> >grantuing citizneship (to which you refer) but nazi boy’s proposal that people
>of
>> >an ethnic origin of which disapproves have their citizenship arbitrarily
>revoked.
>> >No government that believes in basic human rights — including and
>especially
>> >the U.S. — can do this.
>>
>> He, as a citizen of his country, has every right to propose and
>> advocate anything he wishes within the laws of his country. Other
>> than that it is unclear what you are talking about. There is no
>> “basic human right” to live in another country.
> Of course he can advocate any silly thing he wants. But you are still
>trying to change the subject. nazi boy advocates removing the citizenship of
>Danish citizens. They are not living in “another country” but their own country.
> nazi boy is *not* writing about illegal aliens. By the way, legal aliens in the U.S.
>and Canada most certainly do have the basic human right to live in those
>countries. Ask Zundel.
Excuse me but it appears you are proclaiming that a legally given
citizenship has to be maintained as a basic human right. You are very
confused regarding human rights and legal rights. But then, you want
to confuse them so you can get rocks off saying Nazi.
>> > Again you are trying to change the subject after making an idiotic
>> >statement. After citizenship is granted, I most certainly do think that the
>> >citizenship is written in stone. So does the U.S. A small matter of the Fifth
>> >Amendment and ex post facto laws, Matty poo.
>
>> Which of course can be changed.
> Only if you wish to deprive people of basic human rights.
Recite the basic human right you are talking about.
We can not go any further until you do.
>> Which human right is violated? Where do people get guns in
>Denmark?
> Gee Matty poo, is your position that depriving people of basic rights
>without due process of law is not a violation of human rights? You are either
>dishonestly taking a position for debate only or you are a real geek.
The law is changed, that is due process. Next question. Or do you
think you are an attorney or something similarly repulsive?
>> Who put the concentration in the camp but you? Or are saying they can
>> not be run in a humane manner as were the US camps in WW II?
> nazi boy has written that the camps should be made as unpleasant as
>possible so that the Danish citizens who he has deprived of their basic rights will
> be as uncomforatble as possible.
There are no recited basic rights on the table in this discussion.
>> It is also a pleasure to see a pretend attorney who makes an issue of
>> every pretend “human right” that Israelies will not give to
>> Palestinians.
> Ah, the old Isreal does it, too, gambit. Please name a Palestinian
>citizen of Israel who has been deprived of their rights. Go ahead. Make an ass
>of yourself.
Those whose homes were destroyed because a family member was accused
(or in some extreme cases even convicted) of terrorism. That is
punishing the innocent. That is called state sponsored terrorism,
corruption of blood at best. But even corruption of blood required a
conviction whereas what Israel does, does not.
But then you did support the destruction of the home of OJ’s mother
after he was arrested.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:50 PDT 1996
Article: 58260 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:53:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-29.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 19 2:57:08 AM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:40008 alt.revisionism:58260
On 18 Aug 1996 02:35:34 GMT, [email protected]@ (Big Kahuna) wrote:
>In <321480ba.85[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> The Jews were here last. The development of writing occurred over
>>a long period of time, with the last great contribution coming from
>>the Phoenicians.
>>
>Any desparate attempt to try to downplay Jewish contributions, I see.
>As feeble as always.
>> The Meso-Americans left a great history of art, as did the
>>Phoenicians and everyone else. Everyone but the Jews. They had to have
>>the same build their temple. They had no skills or culture.
>Prove it.
>Or get the real facts dumped in your inbound.
>>
>> The Phoenicians and the Hebrews lived next to each other. They
>>were two entirely two different cultures.
>Wadda Marroon.
Wadda cartoon rabbit.
>Prove it.
>Demonstrate your time machine.
>>
>> History books and history art books might have twenty of thirty
>>pages on various societies, but when it comes to the Hebrews, maybe
>>one page.
>Where do you want the evidence that your an idiot delivered?
>Your current address – or via POSTMASTER?
> >
>> Any boats the Hebrews ever had, they had to have the Phoenicians
>>build them for them. If anyone ever got to the Americas from the
>>Mediterranean it would have been the Phoenicians, and the Hebrews
>>would have been the least likely.
>Prove it.
>>
>> The only thing the Jews have, is chutzpa. The non-reality.
>>
>Prove it.
>>>Now we know what happened to the lost tribes!
>>>
>>>They became “Native Americans”!
>>>
>>>Which means that this land is part of Israel and belongs to da Joos!
>>
>>>ZOG must be informed immediately!
>>>
>>>Wadda marroon!
>>
>>
>> What we have witnessed here is the Hebrew ego at work under the
>>guise of being witty. In the end, only wishful thinking out loud.
>>
>What you’ve witnessed is sarcasm.
>You are a total asshole.
>And that’s your best quality.
>> The Jews despise other peoples cultures. I have never met a Jew
>>yet who didn’t just scoff if you raise a discussion about the arts and
>>attainments of other cultures.
>Prove it.
>Refuse to prove your contentions and I’ll be authorised – by you – to state that
>you admitted that all you do is distort and forge statements.
>A bot will take care of that quite nicely.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 19 16:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 58261 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1) – kr2a.jpg (1/1)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:04:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 1278
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4un03j$[email protected]> <4us6cs$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <3211c4a5.138[email protected]> <3213af91.[email protected]> <4v3t0o$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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