From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 15:58:28 PDT 1996
Article: 56328 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/”Images” and Rip Van Winkle
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:50:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3205fa00.5877[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:52:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:14:59 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> I refer to to the “star wars” and “Mr. Natural” cases for your
>> edification. Please do not bother me again until you have reviewed
>> them.
>I refer to the copyright laws of Canada and the US.
>Please do not post nonsense until you learn something.
What an honest attorney will tell you is that you know nothing of the
law until you know the case law. You must have one or two of that
type in Canada. Perhaps you even know one.
In the mean time, I direct you to the case law.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 16:58:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56331 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:20:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:22:11 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2457 alt.revisionism:56331 alt.conspiracy:76579 alt.politics.white-power:38847 soc.culture.jewish:67402 talk.politics.guns:297223 talk.politics.libertarian:110386 talk.abortion:181014 alt.christnet:90447
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:06:11 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> On 8 Aug 1996 05:22:08 GMT, [email protected](some bizzare guy on
>> the internet) wrote:
>>
>> >Whoever says the holocaust doesn’t exist can talk to my grandmother.
>> >She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50
>> >people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials.
>> >Fuck up.
>>
>> > Robert Rothenbrew
>> > http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/
>> > I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed.
>>
>> It is fascinating that you would invite people to contact your
>> grandmother without providing a means to do so. I presume you have at
>> least forwarded her name to “Spielberg’s List.” If not, it would be a
>> good thing for you to do.
>>
>Mr. Giwer’s sensitivity never ceases to amaze me.
>
>Maybe Mr. Rothebrew doesn’t want his grandmother HARASSED… right, Mr.
>Giwer? Like your FATHER? Remember HIM?
>
>Mr. Rothenbrew DOES give you a web site where I assume you can contact him
>directly. I’d imagine e-mail works just fine, doesn’t it?
>
>I presume you were too stupid to figure this out on your own.
>
>163.
>
>Bullshit.
>
>Sara
>–
>”It’s always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice.”
> John Sayles, _Lone Star_
Are you willing to post the PGP signed message where he assigns you
the power to speak for him?
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 16:58:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:18:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:20:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2458 alt.revisionism:56332 alt.conspiracy:76580 alt.politics.white-power:38848 soc.culture.jewish:67403 talk.politics.guns:297224 talk.politics.libertarian:110387 talk.abortion:181015 alt.christnet:90448
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 12:06:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or
>> uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know
>> that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories.
>1. You are not a skeptic. Check out the definition.
>2. The raw information verifies the gassing facts.
>I can send you that information.
If you have anything new, post it.
>You keep ignoring the offer, Matt.
>The reason is very obvious.
The reason is that I want it in public for all to read and discuss.
You want to show off your investment in that CD-ROM.
>> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you have
>> grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no
>> burning unless other testimony is false.
>>
>Try again, Matt.
>The offer still stands.
>Why do you refuse it?
>Just ask for it.
>You’ll get it.
I know you will send the mail bomb if you can get me to ask for it. I
am not interested.
Now why not post it for everyone to read? Does it not bear public
scrutiny?
>> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string
>> requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any
>> manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that
>> will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to
>> that sort of thing.
>Considering your – er – their penchant for selectivity and creative
>editing, why would you want more facts? They only get in your way.
Considering how many times I have put back what you editted out just
to maintain the sense of a post, it is unclear where you claim is
coming from.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 18:55:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38881 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!gatech!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:23:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:25:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2464 alt.revisionism:56372 alt.conspiracy:76647 alt.politics.white-power:38881 soc.culture.jewish:67422 talk.politics.guns:297264 talk.politics.libertarian:110442 talk.abortion:181032 alt.christnet:90480
On 9 Aug 1996 10:58:04 GMT, [email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected](some
>bizzare guy on the internet) writes:
>>
>>Whoever says the holocaust doesn’t exist can talk to my grandmother.
>>She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50
>>people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials.
>>Fuck up.
>>
>> Robert Rothenbrew
>> http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/
>> I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed.<<
>Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government,
>else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp….There
>are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone
>think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?….So
>we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish???
>Every Jewish woman from that era claims rape by the Germans….I think
>Grany is just flattering herself by telling you that.
Granny reminds me a bit of the man who remembered being gassed six
times.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 19:40:18 PDT 1996
Article: 56373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:09:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 617
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:11:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:08:19 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions – or admit
>> >that you’re BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance.
>>
>> The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the
>> cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has
>> been posted here. If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on
>> DejaNews.
>URL, PLEASE!
Why a URL when you can have the real thing?
========
Path:
ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier..net!netaxs..com!news..dra..com!imci2!news..internetMCI..com!newsfeed..internetmci..com!in3..uu..net!newsflash..concordia..ca!news..nstn..ca!ott..istar!istar..net!tor..istar!east..istar!newsjunkie..ans..net!newsfeeds..ans..net!rcogate..rco..qc..ca!news..interlink..net!Rezonet..net!Vir..com!usenet
From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lagace’s testimony
Date: 4 Aug 1996 22:31:06 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 279
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne31.vir.com
IVAN LAGACÆ’[
Ivan Lagace was the fourteenth witness called by the defence. He
testified on Tuesday, April 5 and Wednesday, April 6, 1988.] Ivan
LagacŽ was
tendered as an expert in the practical aspects of crematorium
practices. LagacŽ
worked as a professional embalmer-funeral director, and crematory
manager and
operator at the Bow Valley Crematorium in Calgary, Alberta. He had
completed the
two and a half year Funeral Services programme at Humber College in
Ontario and
in 1979 obtained his diploma and Ontario license. In 1983 he obtained
his
Alberta license. (27-7383, 7393; qualified to give opinion evidence
at
27-7394)) Lagace testified that while a crematoria business
required licensing, the
personnel themselves required no licence or certification. This
applied to Canada, the
United States and Mexico. Crematorium operators were trained by
factory
representatives in the operation of the equipment. Most operators
were members of the
Cremationists Association of North America, a self-governing
association which
sets voluntary standards for crematorium operation. (27-7384, 7385)
In the
course of his career, Lagace had dealt with over 10,000 bodies in his
work and had
cremated over 1,000 bodies. The work involved bodies in a variety of
physical
conditions, from accident and fire victims to people who died of
highly
contagious diseases. (27-7385, 7386)Cremation Process With the use
of a flow schematic
drawing, Lagace explained the three basic processes of cremation
which applied
to any crematorium built from 1800 onwards. In the first stage, the
human
remains (referred to by crematory operators as the “fuel”) were
placed in the main
ignition chamber. The body could be in a container such as a casket
or not, but
it was definitely easier to burn the body without a container because
there was
less fuel to burn. Although it depended on the design of the unit,
the body
would usually be placed through the loading door feet first.
(27-7396, 7397, 7398)
At that point, the heat source was employed, most modern crematories
using
gas-fired or oil-fired burners. The fuel (human remains) was ignited.
Temperatures became extremely hot, normally reaching 2,000 degrees,
and depending upon the
fuel, could go as high as 2,250 degrees Fahrenheit. (27-7399) From
the main
ignition chamber, the gasses were sucked at a high velocity into a
mixing chamber
and thereafter through a series of baffles until the gasses were
finally
expelled outside through a tall stack. The main purpose of the mixing
chamber and
baffles was the elimination of any smoke or odour emissions. The
baffles achieved
this by forcing the escaping gasses through a series of twists and
turns,
creating turbulence or mixture. A secondary burner could be employed
at this point
to burn off any remaining gasses and smoke particles, but, LagacŽ
explained, it
was not usually necessary. Because of the high temperatures, all that
was
needed to be introduced was more oxygen. This induced a secondary
burn within the
after-burner portion of the crematory unit. (27-7399, 7400)
Cremation reduced
the human remains to calcium. These particles were sucked from the
cremation
chamber into a space called the settling chamber. Because of the
larger size of the
settling chamber, the vacuum pressure dropped, causing the calcium
particulates to fall down. LagacŽ explained that the settling chamber
filled rather
quickly and, depending on the number of cremations, had to be checked
regularly and
cleaned at least once a month. Most crematoria usually maintained a
log of
clean-ups. As a result of these processes, nothing but clean hot air
escaped up the
stack. (27-7400 to 7402) LagacŽ testified that because of Bow
Valley
Crematorium’s extremely high stack, 45 feet versus the normal 15
feet, a high velocity
draft was created drawing very large volumes of oxygen into the
cremation
chamber. The more oxygen that was provided, the higher the
temperatures would go. As a
result, crematory temperatures were passing 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit,
exceeding the tolerance level of the bricks. This caused Bow Valley’s
refractory to
fail, requiring re-bricking of the entire machine besides the stack
itself. (27-740
(27-7402, 7403) Nevertheless, because of its high stack, the
Bow Valley Crematorium
was the hottest, and therefore, the fastest crematory in operation in
North
America, with the capacity to cremate one adult human body in a
minimum time of an
hour and a half under optimum circumstances. Children took much less
time to
cremate simply because of their smaller size. Bodies with a moderate
amount of
fat were easier to cremate than skinny people. Fat was a good fuel
which ignited
instantly upon exposure to the flame. A tremendous surge of heat
would result,
actually aiding in the cremation process. A person with no fat on
their body
was very “stubborn” fuel to burn because it consisted mainly of wet
tissues.
(27-7405, 7406, 7407) The torso was the most difficult part of the
human body to
cremate because of its bulk and thickness. (27-7426) After the
initial surge of
heat from the ignition of body fat, the temperature in the retort
would drop to
around 1,900 degrees and would remain at that level until the
cremation was at
least 80 percent complete. Thereafter, the temperature further
declined to
about 1,600 degrees until the end of the cremation cycle. (27-7425,
7426) Lagace
next took the jury through the Operations of Cremation Equipment
Manual which
set out operating procedures for crematories. The manual warned the
operator, for
the first case of the day, to “check and see that the ash tray is
installed in
the ash pit” and warned that “failure to have the ash tray installed
can
cause/or result in fire outside the Retort!” (27-7407: Manual filed
as Exhibit 105
at 27-7422) ) LagacŽ explained the importance of this procedure,
especially in
the case of obese cases, where incomplete combustion of body fats
occurred. In
such an event, the burning body fats dripped into the waterproof ash
pan and
continued to burn there. If the ash pan wasn’t there, however, the
fluid would
leak outside of the retort and cause a fire outside the crematory.
(27-7407, 7408)
After checking for the ash pan, an operator started the preheat
cycle for the
afterburn chamber. This chamber was heated to create or establish the
draft in
the stack. The preheat cycle took approximately twenty minutes to
reach 800
degrees Fahrenheit. After the preheating, the fuel (human remains)
was introduced
into the ignition chamber on rollers, the main burner ignited and the
cremation
process commenced. (27-7408, 7409, 7410) LagacŽ pointed out
that the Manual
contained the warning that: “Use of any metal type roller will cause
excessive
wear on the floor tile and shorten the life period of the floor
tile.” He
explained that the refractory tiles used on the floor of the ignition
chamber tended
to wear out very quickly because of the wear and tear of the rollers
and because
this was where the fuel ignited and burned. LagacŽ himself had worn
out floor
titles after only 250 cremations by using metal rollers. Once the
wear started
it was extremely difficult to stop. (27-7410, 7411) To repair the
unit in such
circumstances the operator had to cease operation of the retort,
allow the
machine 48 hours of cooling down time with the door fully open, and
preferably with
a fan flowing through the machine. The bricks or tiling then had to
be
removed and new ones cemented. The average life expectancy of floor
refractory was
1,500 cremations. The bricks of the retort’s walls and ceilings were
rated for
3,000 cremations while the bricks of the afterburn chamber were rated
for roughly
2,000 cremations. (27-7411) The time to cremate a human being (the
cremation
cycle) took an average of two hours. After the first cremation of the
day was
completed, the operator must let the retort cool-down for a minimum
of one hour
before beginning the second case. After the second cremation, a
cool-down period
of at least two hours was required. Even with cool-down times, LagacŽ
testified that cremations could not be done “24 hours a day, round
the clock, day after
day…the refractory will not tolerate it.” Factory recommendation
for normal
operation was a maximum of three cases per day in a normal eight hour
work day.
No more than 50 – 60 cases should be processed in any month so that
the
refractory life was prolonged. That was an average of 2 cases a day.
(27-7412 to 7415;
There was no way to speed up this process, LagacŽ testified,
without effecting the refractory brick and endangering the life of
the operator. If
no cool-down period was allowed between cremations, the temperature
would go
out of control and probably exceed the 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit rated
for the
bricks. This would cause excessive spalling, or flaking, of the
bricks. Secondly,
the operator could not safely open a retort having an internal
temperature of
2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. “I have to allow for cool-down time, for my
safety,”
said LagacŽ, “and to bring the temperature in the retort to a point
where there
is safe loading of the next case.” (27-7412, 7413) LagacŽ
testified that he had
“burned my hair and my face often enough to learn that I don’t
attempt to open
the door when the temperatures are excessive. It just can’t be done,
unless
perhaps you are wearing a full asbestos suit. From my experience with
asbestos
garment, they prevent flame from contacting you, but they still get
very hot.”
(27-7414) LagacŽ emphasized the real dangers involved if the
cool-down periods
were not followed. If an operator attempted to introduce a body into
the retort
when temperatures were still excessive, a “flash ignition” could
occur whereby
the body would ignite before it was fully introduced into the retort.
In such a
case, the operator would be engulfed in flames from the burning body
and would
be unable to close the door to the retort. To put it simply, he said,
“you can
basically walk away and watch your building burn down.” (27-7415,
7416) You can
introduced a sample brick into evidence which the jury was allowed to
handle.
The brick was extremely light and brittle making it an extremely good
insulator,
insulator, but also very delicate: “I could take an ordinary handsaw
and cut it in
half.” The brick was able to withstand 2,600 degrees Fahrenheit, and
was therefore a
little better than the average firebrick. (27-7422, 7423, 7424; brick
entered
as Exh. 106 at 27-7423) In a new crematory, the new refractory
brick had to be
cured or dried out during a break-in cycle of one cremation per day
for 25
days. If this number was exceeded, refractory failure would certainly
be caused.
(27-7428) During normal cremations, there was some flaking of
brick, wearing it
from the inside to the outside. If the brick was overheated, however,
it would
simply crack along its length to about one half of its depth, thereby
causing
premature failure. In such a case, the fire would not be contained
within the
retort and the metal superstructure, which supported the retort,
would buckle.
Eventually, testified LagacŽ, the retort would collapse and a fire
would occur
outside the cremation chamber. (27-7424, 7425) During cool-down,
LagacŽ shut down
the natural gas burner used to fire the crematory and pumped air
through the
chamber. Older furnaces, he said, had been coal-fired, and had been
difficult to
cool down simply because the operators could not shut the heat off:
“Once coal
is burning, unless you remove it, the heat is still being produced.”
Coal-fired
furnaces thus prevented any quick cool-down to occur and in fact
required
“enormous amounts” of time to cool. (27-7426)Birkenau Crematories
LagacŽ testified
that the plans for the Birkenau crematory indicated that it had been
built to
almost the exact specifications of the Bow Valley Crematorium. Using
an
overhead of the Birkenau plan, LagacŽ pointed out the crematory’s
cremation chamber,
the flame port, the smoke channel and settling chamber and the
afterburner. He
testified that it was obvious that the Germans were concerned with
environmental
effects. (27-7430) LagacŽ found the most amazing and unique part
of the
Birkenau crematory to be the stack, calculated to be 45 feet high,
and therefore very
similar to Bow Valley Crematorium’s stack. In LagacŽ’s opinion, the
rate of
burn of the Birkenau unit would be as efficient but not more than his
own unit in
Calgary. (27-7432) The only technology difference that LagacŽ
could see
between his own crematory and those of Birkenau was the burner
section. LagacŽ’s as
crematory used a natural gas burner while Birkenau used a stoking
system with coal
or something of a similar nature. The technology of LagacŽ’s
crematory allowed
him to shut the gas off for cooling. Coal was very cumbersome in that
regard
and this would affect the time limit since the operator could not go
through a
cooling cycle as quickly. (27-7450) LagacŽ was shown a photograph
of one of the
Birkenau crematories taken during the war and asked if the units
looked familiar
to his own crematory. LagacŽ agreed that they were. He indicated,
however,
that the Birkenau retorts had been built in units of three with
common walls
between them. This would have eliminated the need for extra bricks
and been much
easier and quicker to construct. However, he noted, “should one of
these need to
be maintained or need any repairs, it would necessitate the shutdown
of the
other two [retorts]…attached to it, because you can’t have
temperatures of 2,000
degrees radiating into an area where you’re working on another
retort.” LagacŽ
believed that this design would never be used in a modern crematory
simply
because, as a business, it could not afford to have a shutdown of
three units if
one broke down. (27-7438, 7439)Holocaust Claims of Numbers
ofCremations at
Auschwitz-Birkenau: LagacŽ was asked to comment on the claims made
by Raul Hilberg in
The Destruction of the European Jews (2nd ed., page 978) with respect
to the
capacities of the 46 retorts in the four crematories at Birkenau.
Hilberg
claimed: The theoretical daily capacity of the four Birkenau
crematoria was somewhat o
over 4,400, but, with breakdowns and slowdowns, the practical limit
was almost
always lower. LagacŽ stated that this claim was “preposterous” and
“beyond the
realm of reality.” To claim that 46 retorts could cremate over 4,400
bodies in
a day was “ludicrous.” Based on his own experience, LagacŽ testified
that it
would only have been possible to cremate a maximum of 184 bodies a
day at
Birkenau. (27-7436, 7437, 7438) LagacŽ was referred to page 17 of
Did Six Million Reall
Really Die? where Harwood stated: Â¥ Although Reitlinger’s 6,000
a day would mean a
total by October 1944 of over 5 million, all such estimates pale
before the
wild fantasies of Olga Lengyel in her book Five Chimneys (London,
1959). Claiming
to be a former inmate of Auschwitz, she asserts that the camp
cremated no less
than “720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift.”
She also
alleges that, in addition, 8,000 people were burned every day in the
“death-pits”,
and that therefore “In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were
handled every
day” (p. 80-1). This, of course, would mean a yearly rate of over
8-1/2
million. Thus between March 1942 and October 1944 Auschwitz would
finally have
disposed of over 21 million people, six million more than the entire
world Jewish
population. Comment is superfluous. LagacŽ testified that from his
own experience
in cremating approximately 1,000 bodies, the figures cited by
Reitlinger and
Lengyel were not realistic. The person citing such figures, he said,
was,
“irresponsible… with his facts because this doesn’t even begin to
enter reality at
all. It’s just physically unrealistic.” LagacŽ said that even with
present
disaster plans, which provide for massive mobilization and the
handling of large
numbers of human remains, it would be “unimaginable” to cremate such
numbers.
(27-7447) Under the disaster plans of LagacŽ’s association,
bodies would be
transported from a disaster scene to a local temporary morgue, which
usually would be
the nearest arena and the bodies placed on the ice. The person
orchestrating
the actions of the crematory managers would be the medical examiner.
At his
instructions, after he had completed any investigations, the bodies
would be removed
from the temporary facilities and normal funeralization would
proceed. If all
corpses were to be cremated, the bodies would have to be placed in
refrigerated
storage to allow time to cremate. (27-7448, 7449) LagacŽ
referred to the 1985
issue of a statistical sheet compiled yearly by the Cremation
Association of
North America, showing the numbers of retorts located on the
continent and the
number of cremations done annually. The statistics indicated that in
1985, there
were a total of 338,370 bodies cremated in 931 crematories in North
America. In
Canada alone, a total of 49,216 cremations were performed in 94
crematories.
(27-7432, 7433, 7434)Open Air Burning: LagacŽ testified that he had
observed the
results of burning people in the open in a case involving a homicide
where the
murderer had attempted to burn the remains of his victim with
gasoline in an
open area in the woods of northern Ontario. He had been unable to do
so. Human
bodies did not burn completely in open spaces. In 90 percent of the
cases, it
would be the epidermis or the skin that would be charred; maybe
perhaps the limbs
would be burnt, but the torso was very difficult to cremate. It took
high
temperatures over a prolonged period of time in order to fully
cremate a human
being. (27-7441) Moreover, an open air burning would require far
more fuel. In a
retort there was a controlled optimum atmosphere. In open air, heat
constantly
escaped so that it was very difficult to concentrate all the heat
into one area.
(27-7446)Decomposition of Corpses and Handling ofTyphus Infected
Corpses:
LagacŽ testified that there would be a problem with decomposition
if bodies were
left for a period of one to two days. Upon death, the body’s defence
systems shut
down, leaving any bacteria or viruses in the body “a free rein to
wreak their
havoc.” There was a rise in the body temperature and gasses began to
be
produced. Within hours to a day, bloating caused by tissue gas would
cause, for
example, a leg to quadruple in its size. It would be an extremely
unpleasant and
dangerous situation if contagious diseases were involved. Tissue gas
was highly
contagious and adhered to any equipment such as the floor, the
tables, any
instruments used on the bodies. (27-7443, 7444) LagacŽ
described the procedures
enforced by the Alberta government in the case of corpses infected
with typhus. At his
discretion, the medical officer of health may step in before the body
is even
removed from the hospital and specify and order the funeral home to
follow
certain procedures in dealing with the body. These included the
wearing of
protective clothing when handling the remains, the destruction of
that clothing and the
containers that the body was placed in. In a case of typhus, the
medical
officer would likely order a direct cremation as this was the most
effective way of
dealing with something that volatile. If the body was buried, it had
to be
encased in a hermetically sealed container which would last over a
prolonged period
of time and only when the soil conditions allowed this, in order to
avoid
contamination of the water-table or underground streams. (27-7444,
7445)
Cross-Examinination:
In response to a question by Judge Thomas, LagacŽ testified that
there
were six retorts in Calgary, a city with a population of about
650,000; the
ratio thus being roughly one retort for every 100,000 persons. Crown
counsel
Pearson asked LagacŽ that if this ratio was applied to the 46 retorts
at Birkenau,
the number would be 4.6 million. LagacŽ agreed. (27-7452 to 7454)
Crown counsel
suggested to Lagace that when he ran his crematory he did so in
conformity with
Alberta law, conscious of ecology, operating the facility with the
safety of
employees as a paramount consideration with a view to maximizing
profit and
minimizing costs, and maximizing the life of the equipment by
minimizing wear and
tear. Lagace agreed. He also agreed that he had no experience
operating in a
system that placed no legal restrictions on how many bodies could be
cremated,
that had as its goal, not profit, but simply disposing of as many
bodies as
possible. (27-7454 to 7456) Wasn’t it true, asked Pearson, that
many facilities such
as municipal garbage disposal facilities or blast furnaces had
furnaces that
ran continually? Lagace replied that he was not familiar with blast
furnaces or
other such facilities and had not enquired into their operation. As
to his
knowledge of ceramics, he testified that the thermocouple, a giant
thermometer used
in the crematory to record temperatures, was encased in ceramic but
had to be
changed about every 1,000 cremations because the ceramic would burn
out.
(27-7456, 7457) Lagace agreed that he was very surprised that the
Birkenau crematory
was a facility which rivalled the Calgary operation as far as
efficiency and
design were concerned. He agreed that Auschwitz was forty years ahead
of its time
when it came to cremating. (27-7458) On re-examination, LagacŽ
testified that
there had not been any typhus epidemics in Calgary recently. He
agreed that any
economic motivation he might have did not affect his capacity to
complete
cremations. (27-7458, 7459)
>I might be too busy for more than a few hurried postings, but I do read
>the stuff.
>The folks who testified in court upheld the evidence of the cremation
>processes and only differed as to how many their low-volume designs
>delivered under virtually stressless conditions versus high-volume,
>high-stress conditions.
As you now know differently, the Kremas being 40 years ahead of their
time, the 1 1/2 cremation time for an adult and the like, what does it
have to do with your claim of low volume when the one under discussion
is hotter and not as fast.
>> While you are searching you should also read the discussion on the
>> incongruous decision to build crematoria instead of faster
>> incinerators.
>Non-sequitur. Inconsequential. Why they did what they did contains
>variables that go outside of engineering.
What might those variables be?
>That they chose an approach that is not identical with what you would
>have done has no bearing on whether or not they did it.
What has bearing is that they chose a slower approach over one that
might have gotten into the time frame required by the “eyewitness”
reports.
>> You have missed so much in this disucussion that it behooves you to
>> bring yourself up to speed before engaging in the discussion.
>I missed very little, if anything, Matt.
>I would suggest that this is yet another way of getting me to stop
>pointing out your errors.
And of course I will be expecting you to, for the first time, post my
“errors.” You can start with the large inclusion above.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 19:40:19 PDT 1996
Article: 56374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 05:09:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 10:11:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Science News, 8 June 1996, When Science and Beliefs Collide
by Janet Raloff, middle column, page 361.
Miller, whose study compares scientific literacy in 15
industrialized nations, argues that creationism “is a peculiarity
of the American landscape.” His data indicate that U.S.
creationists often accept some aspects of science that do not
address biological evolution. In fact, he suspects that the
adamancy of belief in creationism traces to the litmus test that
many U.S. fundamentalist sects use for membership: literal
acceptance of the biblical account in Genesis of God’s weeklong
creation of the unive and everything in it some 6,000 to 10,000
years ago.
“Those people who reject evolution tell us at the same time
that there are thousands of planets in the universe on which life
might have developed-which is not a Genesis point of view,” says
Miller. “They will also agree with the statement that the
continents on which we live have been moving in their locations
for millions of years.” This popular version of plate tectonics
also violates the biblical timetable. The good news, Miller says,
is that 80 percent of U.S. adults, including many creationists,
believe the benefits of science outweigh its harms.
While Losh accepts Miller’s data, she does not share his
generally rosy view of what they imply for scientific literacy
and appreciation.
What fundamentalists really like, her results suggest, is
not science but the fruits of science, such as vaccines against
infectious diseases, cleaner water, and especially technology~
Her studies indicate that they don’t welcome the untethered
inquiry that led to those fruits-and that scares her.
Creationists prefer thinking that is geared toward accepting
the word of church-approved authorities without question, Losh
finds. This approach to learning may produce good tecbnologists,
she argues, “but it doesn’t tend to generate good science.”
=====
One has to wonder if holohuggers are ever going to be
studied in such detail.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 19:40:20 PDT 1996
Article: 56375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.oz.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph – zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:39:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:41:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:51:52 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Rudolph himself seems to agree this graph isn’t worth
>much; he apparently reconstructed it from *one* data
>point. He chose an exponential function because, so
>he said, it’s the “fastest decreasing mathematical
>function”, which must be one of the stupidest things
>I heard in my life.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Both an exponential and a
polynomial curve fit are given. I would presume the R values were
equivalent. As everyone should know, any curve can be represented by
any other curve with only quality of fit being of interest.
>The graph presented here cannot be true, as it contradicts
>the much more accurate information from the Peters-Rasch
>paper: in far lower temperatures, there was no residue
>detected in the Zyklon after an hour, or at most two.
If there is MORE accurate information in that paper, POST THE GRAPH
given in that paper. Post the paper at least.
>It also contradicts the information in Dr. Peter’s book
>that the large part evaporates in half-an-hour.
Then you need to learn the technical term in German.
>The simplest explanation is that we’re talking about
>two different products: one manufactured today vs.
>the wartime Zyklon. Other possibility is that Rudolph
>is lying through his teeth, as he did when misquoting
>Dr. Peters’ book.
More Nazi physics at work.
>All that being said: this is a matter not of crucial
>importance. Even if the graph was indeed as Rudolph
>claims it to be, there would be no problems with
>using it to kill people in the Auschwitz gas chambers.
Go take another look at it and note the amount released in the 10-15
minute time frame which is the most common description of the time
frame. THEN calculate backwards to find the amount that had to be
dumped in to achieve lethality in that time frame.
And then, when you discover that two people could not carry enough to
do it, explain why they were in such a hurry to kill when cremation
was the bottleneck in the operation.
You do claim to be a mathematician. This should be a very simple
calculation for you. Please post your results.
On the other hand, why is it that a noted mathematician has never
taken the time to devote his talents to providing a numerical
foundation for the gassing stories?
I would have thought that you would have knocked that off in a couple
weeks and added it to the support of gassing. For you it should be
quite simple.
Here is a hint. Eyeball the 15 minute line and find 20%. Presume
that resulted in the equivalent of 300 ppm so use a straight line
approxiamation and go back to 7.5 minutes and assume that was 150 ppm
to achieve the lethality in the required time. Then take into
consideration the volume of air in the room, the fraction of ZB that
is HCN, and calculate the weight of ZB that had to be put in to
achieve these results.
Then estimate what men can carry up a ladder.
Show your work save for the calculator steps. No hand waving, just do
it.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 19:40:21 PDT 1996
Article: 56376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:32:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u6rmj$t[email protected]> <4u9j[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:34:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 9 Aug 1996 02:01:42 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On 6 Aug 1996 07:19:47 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Why was SS doctor Clauberg at Auschwitz in 1943 allegedly doing research
>>>on sterilization methods to be used in regard to the Jews
> I believe you will find that the SS had some interest in the
>possibility of sterilizing some other groups as well.
>>> if the SS had orders to exterminate them? So many stories…..so many
>>>lies.
>> What was someone allegedly doing something?
>> I wonder why the holohuggers are allegedly screwing small farm animals
>>for the same reasons.
>>
>> Is it not amazing that they hold and document a huge conference at
>>Wannsee to create a smoking gun for the holohuggers to point to and
>>then never another word, meeting, whatever.
> Posen, 4th October 1943.
> Himmler’s speech is on tape. At this meeting, which the confessed
>liar Matt Giwer falsely claims never happened, Himmler speaks of the
>extermination (“Ausrottung”) of the Jewish people. Just to make the point
>clear for slow people like Mr. Giwer, he talks of corpses and compares it
>to a previous episode of murder.
> Physical evidence. Produced by the Americans, by the way, not the
>Russians.
The interesting part of the speech story is that Hitler himself was
there to hear it.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 19:40:21 PDT 1996
Article: 56383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:28:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:30:24 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 9 Aug 1996 13:29:16 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> When you ask for my daughter’s number you are ready for the grave.
> Ooooo. Another threat. Golly gee. I’m really worried.
> I think I’ll make the call tonight.
Please do.
From [email protected] Sat Aug 10 23:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 56394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!marlin.ucsf.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:17:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u7v5l$f[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:19:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:56:23 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> You have been the strongest supporter of CO at Treblinka and suddenly
>>when it is not the hottest thing since sex in another place you are
>>all over it.
>>
>> This is the usual holohugging crap. Used Russian and German for that
>>matter tank engines were as available at A-B as at Treblinka.
>>
>> Deal with reality, not with the spin you think you can put on it.
>
> It doesn’t really matter what Mr.Keren has to say on the agents
>of mass extermination. The idea is so ridiculous most people I have
>told about it get that ‘looking sideways’ expression on their face.
> It is just another part of the Holocaust Achilles heal.
An interesting approach for a website.
Just very clearly and simply lay out exactly what the eyewitnesses
reported in all their gruesome detail including everything that is
ridiculous. And of course offering no opinions on the matter, simply
recounting it all.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 56410 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:06:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:08:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2467 alt.revisionism:56410
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:09:17 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics having
>> been done on the bodies, that sort of thing.
>
>No forensic studies, Mr. Giwer.
>
>Just a pit in the town of Stolin, filled with the bodies of the former
>Jewish inhabitants of the shtetl there.
>
>I have photographs of that pit, including a monument placed there by the
>Soviet “liberators.”
>
>Why don’t you go there and visit it for yourself?
>
>I say it happened. I have the history, the photographs, and an eyewitness.
>
>Prove me wrong.
Prove you wrong? You are making the assertion. That is up to you.
How many bodies? How was the religion determined? What was the cause
of death? What were the circumstances around the deaths?
A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and died in a
reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time prohibited guerilla
fighters and resistance movements. Resistance under the rules at the
time was murder.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 56411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:31:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:33:06 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 8 Aug 1996 22:28:20 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On 7 Aug 1996 05:04:16 GMT, [email protected] (Gary) wrote:
>>>There is a relatively easy “test” for anyone with a couple of bucks and
>>>a few free minutes: simply go to the local Wal-Mart or similar, buy a
>>>box of activated charcoal from the aquarium supplies section and toss
>>>some of the contents into a sinkful of water. It is readily apparent
>>>that the activated charcoal (which is made by burning cattle bones) is
>>>approx. 1 cm sieve crush, frequently floats (due to surface tension),
>>>and is easily moved about by even gentle currents.
>>
>> Whatever the source of activated charcoal, and I sincerely doubt you
>>have the source correct due to the lack of carbon in bones,
> You are just a fountain of ignorance, aren’t you?
> Hydroxyapatite Crystals – Hydroxyapatite crystals make up the
> inorganic component of bone. They contain calcium phosphate, calcium
> carbonate and small amounts of magnesium, hydroxide, fluoride and
> ^^^^^^^^^
> sulfate (composition varies with age and diet).
> Of course this also makes your other assertion, about bones being made
>of “calcium oxide,” rather ridiculous as well.
Tell it to the idiots are who claiming it floats. Then get back to
me.
You have just shot down your fellow holohuggers and do not know.
What an asshole.
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:25 PDT 1996
Article: 56415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:08:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4tuuee[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:10:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:44:19 GMT, [email protected] (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside
>>>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_
>>>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were
>>>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets
>>>of red-hot coke.)
>> It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are
>>desperate. As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less
>>the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the
>>preheating chamber.
>It’s funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans
>were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans.
>It’s well known and you certainly knew this.
You make it up as you go along.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:08:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4tuuee[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:10:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 20:36:32 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside
>> >>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_
>> >>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were
>> >>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets
>> >>of red-hot coke.)
>>
>> > It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are
>> >desperate. As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less
>> >the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the
>> >preheating chamber.
>>
>> It’s funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans
>> were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans.
>> It’s well known and you certainly knew this.
>At one time, the Troll may have known this. He was surely told enough
>times. However, considering his advanced state of dementia, it is quite
>likely that he has a problem with his long-term memory. Like anything
>longer than 30 seconds.
>Sad indeed.
>Mark
>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”
>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–
You both make it up as you go along.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:11:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4u9jf5$[email protected]> <4ucsdv$e[email protected]> <4uev0i$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:13:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:28:00 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
>>
>>>Annie Alpert
>>> The Nizkor Project:
>>>Fighting hate and anti-Semitism on the Internet
>>> * * * On the web * * *
>>> WWW.Nizkor.org
>>
>> Why are you wasting your time with this crap when the internet
>>cremation society has a website and has the raw data you are guessing
>>at in a FAQ?
>>
>> The link has been posted here many times.
>>
>Does it bother you? Good.
>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
It does not bother me in the least. It is simply that I like to point
out when holohugger refuse to deal with facts that are available to
them.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:00:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:03:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82415 alt.revisionism:56421 talk.politics.european-union:5444
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:30:17 GMT, [email protected] (Robert Smith)
wrote:
>Alec Grynspan
>>George F. Hardy wrote:
>>>
>>> I suggest that you compare the Mission Statement with the numbers:
>>> 6,000,000 Jews
>>> 5,000,000 Russians (non-Jews)
>>> 2,000,000 Poles (non-Jews)
>>> 500,000 Gypsies
>>> 500,000 Others.
>>>
>>> You will see that the numbers reflect many more Poles and Russians
>>> then Gypsies, but Gypsies were mentioned second. And Russians
>>> were not really mentioned at all, considerting, by these numbers
>>> they totaled 35%, plus Russian Jews.
>>Because Jews and Gypsies were singled out to be utterly annihilated.
>>Not enslaved or as subordinates – annihilated.
>>The Russians and Poles were murdered because they were in the way.
>>The Jews and Gypsies because they were Jews and Gypsies, regardless of
>>nationality.
>>The Holocaust Museum is about that – so Gypsies get a second position by
>>numbers.
>So it’s worse to murder someone because of who they are rather than
>’because they were in the way’. Rubbish, MURDER is MURDER.
Well said. It is interesting that holohuggers try to create degrees
of murder by motivation. It is something rather unique to the hate
crime, mind reading fantasy.
>When Israel MURDERS Palestinians ‘because they are in the way’ thats
>not as bad as murdering them because their Arabs.
>The deaths in the concentration camps were appalling, as someone who
>was a child in the late 40’s/early 50’s the pictures had a profound
>affect upon me. Perhaps it was worse in that it happened in Western
>Europe where we thought we were civilised. Nothing can diminish the
>horror.
It was worse because photography had been invented and that it was
recorded for you to see. Hundreds occurred before and about a dozen
since. Exact numbers of couse will vary. Consider the “horrors” in
Haiti based upon a half dozen pictures. Consider the 1 million in
Cambodia based upon no pictures. Which got the nation’s attention?
Consider the foolishness/complicity of the US media not covering the
deaths on Serbia?
Consider the complicity of the US media not covering the reason the UN
found that Israel targeted the Qana refugee camp.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 01:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:06:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:09:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82416 alt.revisionism:56422 talk.politics.european-union:5445
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:42:29 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(George F. Hardy) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, Alec Grynspan
>>
>> >
>> >The Holocaust Museum is about that – so Gypsies get a second
>> >position by numbers.
>> >
>>
>> You have stumbled on the truth. The Holocaust Museum is not
>> about Holocaust deaths, but a political agenda.
>>
>> GFH
>I see you have a basic problem comprehending simple sentences.
>
>Alec said “The Holocaust Museum is about that.” Meaing — it is about the
>Holocaust.
>
>The deaths in the Holocaust were people from many countries,
>nationalities, races, sexual orientations, religious orders, etc.
That is hard to tell from the USHMM website. But then you can point
out the page that clearly and up front makes that point if you should
like to take a try at it.
>The Holocaust Museum (which I HAVE been to — have YOU?) covers ALL these
>disparate groups. Yes, it speak of the Jews. But it also speaks of the
>Gypsies. The homosexuals. The Catholics. And many others.
Been to the web site, done that. That is a false statement. We have
been over this before. It deals mainly with Jews who think they are
something special “because of what they were.”
>I happen to have a great deal of knowledge as to the planning and
>designing of the Museum. It was never intended — and it is NOT — about
>any political agenda.
If it was not about a political agenda, why was it created according
to a political agenda? The US government donated the lands and
dictated its charter. It is impossible to claim it was apolitical
given the facts.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 02:16:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:59:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <320b3feb.89604[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4uhlb1$gf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:02:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:50:47 GMT, [email protected] (Serdar
Yegulalp) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> But there are no bodies killed by cyanide. There are no body remains
>>to account for the claimed number of dead.
>And no furnaces to burn them in, either? And no ashes? I remember this
>discussion taking place here before…
That is correct. Every burned body is accounted for by enterance and
death records. And with that no gassing is required and no impossible
cremation rates are required.
So what is your problem?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:09:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uev0i$[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:12:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:36:20 GMT, [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov)
wrote:
>In <4u[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>[irrelevant troll reference snipped]
>>>
>>>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>>>>writes:
>>>>previous discussion on the amount of ash snipped
>>>
>>>>>>Wow. No problem to get rid of that ash at all.
>>>>>>
>>>> Exactly true, Mr. E:
>>>
>>>>ASHES
>>>> What became of the ashes of the victims at Auschwitz and
>>>> other extermination camps that cremated the bodies. Of
>>>> course this is a disrespectful and nasty question, since it
>>>> suggests that there is some deception taking place, but let’s
>>>> consider it anyway.
>>This is where your problem begins. You believe that to ask questions
>No, Ehrlich, this is where _your_ problem begins. You have no
>interest in discussion of facts, rather your interest – like that of
>all deniers/distorters – is simply in finding hooks to which you can
>append another recycled denier “argument.”
>[snip ehrlichian pontifications]
>>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau. Fact: Around 1990, the Polish
>>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>>million. Fact: The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp. Fact: This document was
>>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.
>And, surprise, surprise, here it is: Yet another recycled denier
>”argument”. It has been presented and refuted countless times before.
>So many times, in fact, that you can find a web page discussing “The
>Auschwitz Gambit: The Four Million Variant”:
>https://nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/4-million-1.html
>Do tell us again, Ehrlich, about your “impressive intellect and
>knowledge.” Then perhaps you will address the discussion you snipped
>(i.e. the substance) of Ms. Alpert’s post.
The “no historian” dodge again? The reason that is a safe dodge is
that there are so few historians (one? two?) in the field that it is
hardly of interest.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56437 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:30:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:32:39 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:56:32 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># But this way it lets them brag about the number of hits
># without having to reveal what generates them.
>The material is there. It’s in German, true, but the
>important parts have been translated. The rest will be
>translated too.
As quickly as the Degesh Publication? We should live so long.
Particularly when it already existed in translation for anyone who
cared to look.
>If you two whiny slobs are so interested in the truth,
>try and get the rest translated, in the meanwhile. Some
>of us have jobs ya know, and there’s only a limited
>time we can dedicate to this.
For so one so fluent in the language it should not take as long as you
are claiming.
>You know very well that this material, and the Topf patent,
>buries practically every claim the “revisionists” have made.
>So all you can do is whine about the size of the characters
>or whatever.
Certainly, as did the Degesh publication which you claimed did so
before I (I) posted the translation and we have found that it is
contrary to holohugger claims.
># And if it is like the Degesh Publication that this same
># person refused to post for so long,
>Who refused to post? This man is insane.
You refused to posted the english. I did it first. Unlike you, I was
completely honest and also published the “ERCO” reference. As for
anyone interested in who is willing to publish anything on any side of
the issue, it is me, not you.
># the reason is that that translation goes more
># against he chosen beliefs than favors them.
>So post the translation. I have no idea what you’re
>babbling about.
># Server Error
>It’s working now, anyway. Score a big one for the Giwer. Nizkor
>was down for an hour or two. Big news for “revisionists”.
You can’t expect much from that piece of shit.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:16:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:18:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2471 alt.revisionism:56439 alt.conspiracy:76768 alt.politics.white-power:38930 soc.culture.jewish:67468 talk.politics.guns:297363 talk.politics.libertarian:110528 talk.abortion:181076 alt.christnet:90590
On 10 Aug 1996 05:55:24 GMT, [email protected](some bizzare guy
on the internet) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>> It is fascinating that you would invite people to contact your
>>grandmother without providing a means to do so.
>Well, you track her down (she’s forced nomadic in the Midwest), then
>you can try and convince her to talk to you. I’ve tried to talk about
>it, and she has horrible flashbacks…
You mean like the name who was gassed six times and lived to tell
about it?
>>I presume you have at
>>least forwarded her name to “Spielberg’s List.” If not, it would be a
>>good thing for you to do.
>Spielberg’s List??
>
>> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw
>interviews or
>>uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know
>>that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories.
>>
>> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you
>have
>>grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no
>>burning unless other testimony is false.
>She recalls, in flashbacks and what she tells me, seeing her people
>shot by Germans, starving to death, raped, and then “taken away”. When
>I try to figure out where, she hexes me.
>
>> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string
>>requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any
>>manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that
>>will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to
>>that sort of thing.
>”Holohuggers”? Give me evidence that the Holocaust didn’t exist!
That is not the subject. The subject is mass extermination by
gassing. Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject
happened. You can make quite a name for yourself if you do.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 56442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:52:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:55:03 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2472 alt.revisionism:56442 alt.conspiracy:76770 alt.politics.white-power:38932 soc.culture.jewish:67470 talk.politics.guns:297371 talk.politics.libertarian:110533 talk.abortion:181077 alt.christnet:90593
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:25:34 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> >”Holohuggers”? Give me evidence that the Holocaust didn’t exist!
>>
>> That is not the subject. The subject is mass extermination by
>> gassing. Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject
>> happened. You can make quite a name for yourself if you do.
>That’s rather tough. The worms have eaten the bodies by now.
Where have you been? They were all cremated and thus the remains were
preserved for all eternity or at least for a thousand years in their
size. But even with worms the bones would still be there. It is only
50 years.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 56444 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1du[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:10:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 9 Aug 1996 08:27:06 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
Schneider) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>>And it is the umpteenth time (for those of you in Canada, that means
>>many times) you have failed to note that “the greater part” is a
>>technical term in German referring to exponential decrease.
>I’m astonished to see Mr. Giwer knowing aspects of the german language
>that hid from me for over thirty years.
>Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen
>technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der ‘groessere Teil’ heisst und der
>Meinung sind, dass dieser Ausdruck generell bedeutet, dass man bezug auf
>irgendeinen Prozess einer exponentiellen Abnahme nimmt, dann sind Sie
>furchtbar schief gewickelt.
>Know what I mean?
>–
> *[email protected]*
You degree is in what?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56450 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Why the Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust (was Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:24:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2474 alt.revisionism:56450 alt.conspiracy:76784 alt.politics.white-power:38936
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 01:19:35 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Bowery)
wrote:
>Rich Graves ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Charles R.L. Power put it succinctly in article
>: Having been indoctrinated with antisemitic propaganda for hundreds of
>: years, German society of the ’30s and ’40s
>1) What caused all this antisemitic propaganda?
>2) Are you saying that most of the other expulsions and persecutions of
>Jews in Europe throughout history prior to the 1930’s and 1940’s were not
>the result of such indoctrination?
>3) You say “hundreds of years” of propaganda were required to motivate the
>antisemitic outburst in Germany in this century. If your answer to 2 is
>”no” then how much time must a people be subjected to antisemitic propaganda
>before they act on it?
>4) If the Ashkenazi were so persecuted throughout European history why
>didn’t they just take up residence in the lands occupied by their
>Sephardim kinsmen who were not as persecuted?
>5) How did the persecuted Ashkenazi population grow to dwarf the less
>persecuted Sephardim population?
Good points but one would hardly think they are not obvious to
everyone.
Centuries of the same thing and worse (subhuman or in league with the
devil, sacrificing christian children, whatever, which is worse?) but
suddenly it shows up under circumstances where deaths from diseases
were so rampant that it is difficult to explain how enough survived to
be gassed.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:37:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 116
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:39:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:27:57 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 21:18:18 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:55:12 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>>>
>>>>># Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of
>>>>># humans in the concentration camps?
>>>>
>>>>>Because it was simple and cheap. Two very good reasons.
>>>>
>>>>># Why didn’t they chose sodium-cyanid crystals poured
>>>>># down in sulphuric acid like they have done in execution
>>>>># gaschambers in the USA since the twenties and still do
>>>>># today?
>>>>
>>>>>Why bother? There was plenty of Zyklon-B around, and simply
>>>>>throwing it into the chambers, via the openings, was good enough.
>>>>
>>>>>Why bother with a more complicated procedure?
>>>>
>>>>># In this case they could have saved themselves all the
>>>>># trouble of inventing fancyfull “wiremesh columns”.
>>>>
>>>>>Are you quoting Giwer’s rubbish now?
>>>>
>>>>>The wiremesh columns were a very simple, very cheap thing
>>>>>to build.
>>>>
>>>> It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to deal with the sulphuric acid
>>>>claim. I warned the wrong person it seems.
>>>>
>>
>>>Rather than be personal in your unfounded attack above, I suggest you
>>>explain to Danny WHY wiremesh columns wouldn’t be a very simple, very
>>>cheap thing to build. You will, of course, substantiate your claims,
>>>will you not?
>>
>> Those claims, including their very existance, are up to little boy
>>Danny to establish.
>You claim to be a “revisionist.” So, since the majority of the
>historical record that concerns these columns discusses perferated
>metal or mesh, I believe,
You believe in error. Not books written by nonhistorians but the gosh
awful for real eyewitness testimony itself.
it is up to you to provide documentation
>that proves that accepted history is wrong. That’s the job of true
>historical revisionists. Dany has established his points more times
>than I can count.
I have seen the drawing he proposes was one of them on Nizkor. That
is what resulted in my slapstick film scene where they are lowered in
and then push right back out. Perhaps Charlie Chaplin as the SS man.
It was then he invented a way to mounted it to the floor which is not
on the drawing, in other words, it is only in his imagination. Tben
someone else came in and tried to pretend that dynamite would destroy
the floor side fasteners but could not explain the lack of mounting
points on the drawing.
And then Danny-boy went to calling “nazi-boy” for lack of coherency in
his fabrication.
>> I simply point out the nonsense of his
>>assertions.
>Really? How does calling him “little boy Danny” do this?
Danny? vice Dan or Daniel? It is the dimunitive form you realize.
>This quote from you: “It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to
>deal with the sulphuric acid claim. I warned the wrong person it
>seems” has what to do with the construction of the columns?
You will note his answer is “why bother?” That makes it clear he has
to idea of the properties of what he is talking about yet pretends to
talk about it. His entire knowledge appears to be based upon his
faith in eyewitnesses.
>You seem to be the evasive one in this thread. How come?
It is not a matter of evasion, if you read everything you have quoted.
You will also note he dismisses the use of sulphuric acid as ZB was
common and plentiful. Battery acid was also common.
>> And tbey are very nonsensical and very little boy like.
>Wow! That quite a challenge to the construction of the pillars. I
>don’t think too many folks are impressed. What they are impressed with
>is how you continue to evade and attack people personally.
The story on the construction of the pillars has changed so many times
that there is nothing left to challenge. If any one thing is said
another version of the construction is brought up. One of these days
the holohuggers may wake up and realize that all of their conflicting
constructions can not be true at the same time.
It is strange that all holohuggers know they existed but at the same
time can not agree upon just what existed.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 56457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:10:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:12:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2476 alt.revisionism:56457 alt.conspiracy:76788 alt.politics.white-power:38938 soc.culture.jewish:67477
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer
>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote:
>> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level
>> of “proof” for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire,
>> it may be a bit too subtle.
> As satire it’s right on. For the deniers though, the problem is that
> they’re a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth.
You too appear to miss the point. No one cares in the least if
someone does not accept the Dresden story.
So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story?
What difference does it make?
Answer: None whatsoever.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:12:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:14:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2477 alt.revisionism:56458 alt.conspiracy:76790 alt.politics.white-power:38940 soc.culture.jewish:67478 talk.politics.guns:297380 talk.politics.libertarian:110542 talk.abortion:181083 alt.christnet:90601
On 10 Aug 1996 05:27:15 GMT, [email protected](some bizzare guy
on the internet) wrote:
>We did firestorm Berlin, guys. It worked better in Japan, with all the
>rice and huts of the time. There it killed more people than both
>A-bombs combined.
But the holohuggers will refuse to look at the burned cities and other
physical evidence and insist that the eyewitnesses not report anything
contradictory.
They are quite disturbed by their lack of physical evidence.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 07:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘We are German citizens! You can’t do this to us!’
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:20:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:22:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:08:16 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Philip Mueller writes about the murder of the Gypsies in Birkenau
>[Quoted from “Auschwitz Inferno”, p. 151]
>—————————————————————–
>One could see that most of the SS-men had a bad conscience. They
>hadn’t shown any scruples about annihilating Jews, the killing
>of whom was now a daily routine for all of them, yet they clearly
>found it unpleasant and distressing to help exterminate people
>with whom they had been on quite good terms up to now. But in
>this dismal place there was no room for sentiment. The
>extermination routine took its usual course. [Hauptscharfuehrer]
>Moll and his helpers cocked their pistols and rifles and, in a
>way that allowed no misunderstanding, asked the people, who
>in the meanwhile had undressed, to leave the changing room at
>once and go into those rooms in which they were to be gassed.
>As they took their last walk, many wept in despair, others
>crossed themselves and prayed to God, and yet others, who even
>now were unwilling to come to terms with their inevitable fate,
>turned to the SS-men and, gesticulating wildly, shouted without
>stopping: “We are German citizens! You can’t do this to us!”.
>For a while desperate shouts and cries could be heard coming from
>the gas chambers until the gas had done its deadly work and chocked
>the last voice.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
The problem is that every
person recorded to have been sent to a camp is accounted for to
the limits of record keeping errors. Many died of disease,
accident, old age and all the rest but none are recorded to have
died of gassing. And, given the end when the system broke down
and starvation took over and record keeping was not possible, the
numbers are still about right.
To assign people to death from
gassing in these camps it is necessary to arbitrarily and without
justification assign some 2.5 to 3 million people from the
untraceable category to the camps category without any claim of
tracing them. It is a completely capricious procedure.
Thus they have to claim that
they can divine from departure and arrival figures of people who
were shipped by train, the number that disappeared and that they
were gassed. This is quite an interesting claim but as they have
a preconceived conclusion, anyting will support it.
But there are alternate
explanations. For example, the time of greatest gassing at
Auschwitz is cited to be in the summer of 1944. That is because
the greatest number of departures but no recorded arrivals
occurred at that time.
On face value, that would
appear damning. But something is being overlooked. That is that
the allies were destroying anything and everything that moved
because they had air superiority and trains with civilians were
no exception. It might have been nice to make an exception but
there was no way to tell from the air.
That only covers the end of
the war. The earlier phase of disappearances was in 1941. That
was when Russia was permitting people to escape through the lines
to refuge in Russia. Almost.
Russia did a little bit of
filtering in the refuge matter. Anyone, man or woman, who was
capable of handling a rifle was given one, turned around and
pointed towards the advancing Germans. This was a useless
gesture at that time in the war. They died on the battlefield.
If their names were even recorded, they are still hidden some
place in the Russian archives.
These two sources of the
vanished 31 million do not account for a larger and
nonrepresentative fraction of Jews that disappeared. For that
there are several possibilities. I am not claiming these are
explanations but rather that they did occur and need to be
considered cumulatively.
First, Jews had a reason to
run from the Germans due to the known internment in concentration
camp policy. Thus they would be most likely to run into the
hands of the Russians, be given a rifle and turned around to face
the Panzer Divisions.
Second, those that did not run
often put their children in orphanages (run by Christians just
like the Nazis) and their children were reported, raised and such
as Christian, not Jewish and never reappeared on the roles of
Jewish population.
Third, given the Russian
policy, women with children were not suitable to be given a rifle
they continue into Russia. Did they return? Did they marry?
Convert?
In line with the third, did
Russia every keep records by religion or ethinicity? Why would
an atheist society that did not officially believe in Mendelevian
genetics do so? Jews would vanish without a trace into such a
society just like Jewish immigrants vanish without a trace into
the US as the US does not keep records by religion. Like it or
not, Silberstein and Demjanjuk are identical save for country of
origin in the US.
Fourth, how many Jews vanished
into the United States? The US keeps no records by religion on
immigrants. So how many vanished into the US?
Although Latin America appears
to get a lot of credit for harboring ex-Nazis, in fact the
countries have large German communities, not Christian-German,
German. How many Jews “vanished” to Latin America?
But this begs the question of
where the 31 million went. Russia does not have the slighest
idea where 15 million of its people went. The Jewish “losses”
pale in comparison but are at the same time quite explainable.
And given the easily
explainable reasons for “transported but did not arrive” it is
clear that the allies, even at this late date and in the
interests of accuracy, do not want to admit what clearly
happened. Early in the war, the Russians used the escaped as
cannon fodder against the Germans and towards the end all the
Allies were destroying people in the transport trains.
It is much easier to leave it
all to the “evil Nazis” than to resurrect the matter this
generation. It will take at least another twenty years to face
this one directly.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:33 PDT 1996
Article: 56486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:04:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <83848[email protected]> <4tg59k$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:06:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 96 11:26:44 GMT, Alexander Baron
>In article
>> These people didn’t die because Kramer locked himself in
>> the bread store, or because the water pump broke down, or
>> because of any other “reason” our desperate Nazi apologists
>> are trying to peddle. They died because the Nazis considered
>> them to be “sub-humans”. The people who continue to make
>> lame excuses and lie about their death, are probably in
>> agreement with the Nazis; there is no other clear reason
>> to explain what they are doing.
>And as I have consistently denounced the Protocols of Zion as a fake I
>am probably in agreement with Organised Jewry. Ther is no other clear
>reason to explain what I am doing.
You do realize you could avoid many of the claims against you by
saying they are disorganized.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:33 PDT 1996
Article: 56487 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:30:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:33:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 10 Aug 1996 14:44:36 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> And now we have an “attorney” who is going to make a call about my
>> response to a request for my daughter’s address. You may remember
>> enough about our conversations to get a chuckle out of that one. You
>> do remember my daughter, don’t you?
> Your response was a death threat.
Only to an ignorant idiot. Think about it.
It was not. There is a very simple explanation as to why it was not.
Even an attorney of your stature should be able to figure it out.
Or Alec may remember enough to give you a hint.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:34 PDT 1996
Article: 56488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:36:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:07:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and
>> bottoms of rivers.
>Congratulations on losing again, Matt.
>The math shows you to be wrong.
>Either show your “corrections” properly or accept that you blew it
>again.
>The best that you can do is dump a useless and totally incorrect web
>page of your own into the middle of a post.
Fine with me. You insist that fluid flow near boundaries is the same
as near the center of the channel. You know better but you claim this
false claim is true.
As I have said, holohuggers will lie to promote their version of the
holocaust.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:08:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:10:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:27:30 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Alexander Baron
># And as I have consistently denounced the Protocols of
># Zion as a fake I am probably in agreement with Organised
># Jewry. Ther is no other clear reason to explain what I
># am doing.
>Very good. Now explain why the death rate in the “work camps”
>was 10 percent per month during, for example, July, August,
>and September 1942, long before the Allies have supposedly
>destroyed Germany’s infrastructure and caused all these
>people to die in 1945.
If you have an actual, recorded death rate in the camps for that time
frame then you are working from a list of recorded admissions and
recorded deaths. Thus no explanation is necessary as they records of
the cause of death exist. Since you have read everything there is on
this here holocaust, what do the records give as the cause of death?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56491 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: none but the polarized
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:49:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:51:20 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
That is all who are here publically. They will never change.
This NG is for the lurkers.
Of what value to claim a post is irrational when a lurker can read it
and find it rational?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56493 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death in Mauthausen
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:17:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 788
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:19:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:36:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Affidavit of SS member Alois Hoellriegl, a guard in Mauthausen
>[Quoted in “Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression” – Washington, U.S Govt.
>Print. Off., 1946, Vol. VIII, p. 630]
>——————————————————————
>Executions were carried out almost daily at Mauthausen. In the
>years preceding 1942 they were carried out by firing squads and
>the bodies were burned in the camp incinerator which operated
>almost daily. SS-guards made up the firing squads and were detailed
>for the work in a routine manner the same as for other work details.
>Victims executed by a firing squad were always shot singly by six
>men using rifles. The number of executions varied daily. Sometimes
>they included persons brought by the Gestapo who were executed
>immediately.
>In 1942 a gas chamber resembling a shower room was built next to
>the incinerator. Gas executions were carried out in the gas chamber
>approximately three times a week and the bodies were burned in the
>adjoining incinerator. From my guard post I could hear the sound of
>the victims pounding on the door when the gas was turned on.
>
>Testimony of Albert Tiefenbacher, political prisoner in Mauthausen
>[Quoted in “Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
>International Military Tribunal”, Vol. XXXIII, p. 226]
>————————————————————–
>Q. Did you hear Kaltenbrunner say anything to Ziereis?
>A. No, I was never so close to him. The carriers of the dead had to
> disappear when visitors were there, only the two firemen were
> allowed to stay in the crematorium.
>Q. Do you remember Wolfram?
>A. He was a medic.
>Q. What do you know about him?
>A. Wolfram gave many of the deadly injections to people.
>Q. Do you remember Eckermann?
>A. I know a block-leader Ecker.
>Q. Do you remember the gas chamber camouflaged as a bath house?
>A. Yes, we always helped to carry the dead from the gas chamber.
>
>Testimony of Johann Kanduth, political prisoner in Mauthausen
>[Quoted in “Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
>International Military Tribunal”, Vol. XXXIII]
>——————————————————————
>p. 232:
>Q. Describe your work.
>A. At first my occupation consisted of removing the bodies, then
> I served the heating and had to learn to put in the corpses,
> then I had to stir up and take out the ashes. This was my occupation
> during 4.5 years.
> .
> .
> .
>p. 233:
>Q. What kinds of execution preceded your cremation?
>A. They were shot in the back of the neck. There were also women.
> Some were killed in the gas chamber. Other were killed by
> springes of gasoline or Efamedem, which were given by a certain
> Klein Guenther.
> .
> .
> .
>p. 242:
>Q. Do you remember the executions of the English and American
> military personnel in the year 1945?
>A. Yes.
>Q. Tell us something about it.
>A. The staff went downstairs, Ziereis, Bachmaier, Streitwieser,
> Niedermayer led them. I do not remember if Altfuldich was
> present too. Ohrenstein must know it. Schulz was always
> present. Proksch and Rommel led them up from the bunker.
>Q. Were you employed at the moment of the execution?
>A. No.
>Q. Do you know who was employed?
>A. Ohrenstein, the only survivor. I came later. Hauptscharfuehrer
> Roth fetched me when the execution was over. The 14 bodies of
> the Americans lay separately.
>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004
Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004
Last-Modified: 1994/10/31
In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came
across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry
which
was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the
Majdanek
concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is
especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the
first
camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the
Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their
crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in
the
whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also),
the
one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford
University.
Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into
my
computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other
researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by
the
OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of
the
photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the
first in
a series of documents which I will be making available electronically.
I am
making this available through e-mail by request, in the various
Holocaust
archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever
get
my WWW home page set up, it’ll be available there too. If you have any
questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at
philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997).
Feel
free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the
text
and to leave my intro in place. Thank you.
Philip Trauring
Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the
printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches
wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with
the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I
also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it
exactly as I saw it on the page — this means that if you received
this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some
strange characters in the middle of the document — if your mail
reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay.
The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also
uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it
match the styles and such from the original.
——————————————————————
[Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives.
The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces
between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr.
Trauring’s original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm]
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE
POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY
COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING
THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE
MOSCOW 1944
——————————————————————
CONTENTS
page
Preamble …………………………………….1
I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin……..2
II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp………3
III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised
in the Extermination Camp……………….5
IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War
and Civilians in the Camp……………….9
V. Asphyxiation by Gas………………………..13
VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the
Traces of their Heinous Crimes………….18
VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the
Camp of their Valuables and Belongings…..22
Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
————————————————————pg 01–
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION
FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP
IN LUBLIN
The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating
the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A.
Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation
(Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the
Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish
Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister,
President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the
Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin
University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and
Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing
Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission),
Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov,
(representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in
Lublin.
In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive
network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm,
Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places.
To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of
thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France,
Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece,
Denmark, Norway and others.
In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the
massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as
undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the
————————————————————pg 02–
occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and
Jews.
The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of
the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality
and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist
invaders of which international public opinion is already aware.
I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast
slaughter house, which they themselves called ‘Vernichtungslager,’
i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.’
The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in
this camp, testified:
Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen:
“This camp was called ‘Vernichtungslager,’ i.e ‘Extermination
Camp’-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated
here.”
Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe:
“The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest
possible number of people. That is why it was called
‘Vernichtungslager’ i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.'”
The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin,
occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection
was commenced at the end of 1940.
In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were
completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one
hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings
used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred
persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire.
Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a
whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance
to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were
charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall
watch towers were erected in
————————————————————pg 03–
which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The
camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two
hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding
the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which
consisted of criminal elements.
II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP
The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to
forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty
five thousand prisoners were confined there.
The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at
different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and
fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for
the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a
stage on the road to death.
The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army
captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from
Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia,
Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries.
This is established by:
a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large
number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of
different countries of Europe who perished in this camp.
For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria
Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others;
documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw
Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to
French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste
Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak
citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging
to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and
others; documents belong-
————————————————————pg 04–
ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van
der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav
citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents
belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and
others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others,
and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities;
b) the register of deaths in the so-called “Lager-Lazarett,”
but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of
a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are
recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and
fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians,
two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French,
seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities
inhabiting the countries of Western Europe;
c) the evidence of a number of witnesses:
former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who
had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in
the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a
Netherlander, and others.
The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly
augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the
population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the
population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations
and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly
carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe,
and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by
the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe.
Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and
aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp.
The children were of different ages, including infants.
Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of
different nationalities of Europe.
————————————————————pg 05–
III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS
PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
The regime in the “Extermination Camp” served the object of
accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners.
The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation.
The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day
of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of
grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy
grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This
led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of
tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the
prisoners. For the slightest “offence” the prisoners were deprived of
even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically
doomed them to death from starvation.
Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated
before the Commission:
“The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of
the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners
ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking
skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to
swelling resulting from starvation.”
Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the
camp stated:
“I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed
at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their
bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in
large numbers.”
Starvation was one of the important elements of the general
system of extermination that prevailed in the camp.
The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the
barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at
which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had
died in the night had to be taken out to the
————————————————————pg 06–
barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The
roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the
beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and
was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as
dead and killed with clubs.
At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The
work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by
severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning
for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their
fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the
evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners
who had worked “badly,” and these were tied to a form and flogged with
whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from
twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death.
Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner
of the camp, stated:
“I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred
strokes, from which he died three days later.”
In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the
prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The
Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous
expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the
Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member
of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most
arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way.
Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a
prisoner at the camp stated:
“The Germans compelled a large group of professors,
physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand
two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from
one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The
scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy
labour were beaten
————————————————————pg 07–
to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting
labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was
exterminated in the course of five weeks.”
The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an
extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged
“jokes,” which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon
whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of
a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head
with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of
prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual
drowning of the victims.
Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in
particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims
by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them
in the stomach or in the groin, etc,
The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water
that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim’s
head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the
jackboot of the SS man until he expired.
The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their
victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du
Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment,
stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness.
When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as
soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over
again.
For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of
attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp.
In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed
to it about two metres high on which people were hanged.
“From my barrack,” said the witness Domashev, a Soviet
prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, “I saw people hanged on
this post in the middle of the field.”
————————————————————pg 08–
Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No.
2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to
another, from which people were hanged in whole groups.
Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment
and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating
and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women
overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli,
were distinguished for their cruelty.
The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely
unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp.
At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist,
Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium,
Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw
her alive into the furnace.
Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp,
also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium
furnaces..”A child was torn from a mother’s breast and before her eyes
was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed,” stated the
witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated:
“I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and
killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was
kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two.”
The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was
notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners
to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on
the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a
most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners.
Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and
murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the
wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp.
————————————————————pg 09–
IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS
OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP
The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European
countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R.,
was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed
>from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active
part of the Slavonic peoples.
The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale
extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by
the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal
their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the
Majdanek “Extermination Camp,” were also places for the complete
extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of
exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as
undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in
the Lublin “Extermination Camp.”
The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale
shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in
November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet
prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except
for a small group who were tortured to death.
In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of
Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot.
Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp,
stated:
“In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five
thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners
were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old
quarry and there they were shot.”
Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far
back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany
————————————————————pg 10–
were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in
Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek
“Extermination Camp” where they met with the same fate: systematic
torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc.
The witness Reznik stated the following:
“In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners
of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We
were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over
to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided
to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners
who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the
rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew
perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death.”
Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a
few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of
the camp, survived.
In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were
brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four
majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the
aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp.
During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners
in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was
carried on.
Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck
(eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up
eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and
ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the
Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of
all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits
which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically
carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods.
————————————————————pg 11–
In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the
camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days.
On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was
filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires.
In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp,
stated:
“That day, in addition – to the people who were brought from
the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the
Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day
official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand
four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we
had to check their clothing.”
Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office,
stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943:
————————————————————pg 12–
“The Germans called this shooting ‘Sonderbehandlung’ (special
treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to
Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote
literally: ‘The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp
in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the
special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'”
The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent
witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944.
>From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number
of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and
carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were
stripped naked and then shot in the trenches.
“There were days,” stated the witness Niedzialek, who
witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, “when from
two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot.”
The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting
in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1.
Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the
crematorium to be burnt.”
In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the
Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all
loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children.
The witness Gangol stated:
“I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed,
and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS
men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and
a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were
entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in
stacks in the woods and burnt.”
The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of
the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from
Greece.
————————————————————pg 13–
The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only
a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision.
A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of
Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at
the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski,
Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of
the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front;
Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M.
Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of
the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain
Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows:
“The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and
two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to
the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a
wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of
the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre.”
Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other
proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical
Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the
Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of
prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some
of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres
>from Majdanek.
V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS
One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted
to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas.
The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the
Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of
Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major
————————————————————pg 14–
Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the
chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized
for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were
six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of
putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were
adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a
poisonous chemical substance known as “Cyklon.”
Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and
thirty-five canisters containing the substance “Cyklon B,” and several
containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the
following:
“The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of
prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with
the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium.
Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate
reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing
the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . .
Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the
substance ‘Cyklon B’ which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the
form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized
prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in
the camp bearing the label ‘Cyklon’ are identical with ‘Cyklon-B’. .
.. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for
carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:25:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4uf2tr$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:27:40 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:44:31 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:46:41 -0300, Keith Morrison
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>> In the lakes it is cumulative. On the ground it is cumulative. And
>>>> it the river, now that our local river “expert” appears to be honest
>>>> enough not to repeat his previous errors, the issue was NEVER
>>>> logistics just as it was NEVER HCN being unsuitable.
>>
>>>What errors, you buffoon?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Mr. Giwer, stop trolling this. I will write a complaint so stop.
To who?
I
>don’t need to read this 40 or 50 times.
You have not read it once.
Actually I don’t read HTML in
>Usenet posts.
As you admit.
That is what the web is for. Provide a URL. Stop
>reposting this. This is the 3rd time I’ve seen it since I’ removed the
>kill-file. I can easily put the killfile back on.
So read it for the first time. It is amazing how many people who
claim they are not bright enough to save to a file and then browse it.
BTW: where does “third time” relate to “40 or 50” or is three
suddenly worthy of a complaint? You appear to be saying you will make
up a complaint for the purposes of harrassment. Why?
>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
I have. I have gotten the majority of my anti-gassing information
>from there. It only takes critical review of the material. They post
anything that comes along no matter how it shoots down the gassing
claim.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:39 PDT 1996
Article: 56495 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:50:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 692
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:52:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 01:21:15 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) writes:
>> In <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison
>
>> >Do try and stick to things you understand.
>
>> Not fair, Keith. Some might think that, by this exhortation, you are
>> attempting to silence the witless troll. After all, if he were to
>> follow your advice, he would have nothing to say about anything.
> Except, of course, for comparisons of the various brands of cheap
>bourbon. A subject on which, by all reports, he could match wits with the best
>of them.
> –YFE
Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004
Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004
Last-Modified: 1994/10/31
In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came
across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry
which
was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the
Majdanek
concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is
especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the
first
camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the
Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their
crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in
the
whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also),
the
one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford
University.
Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into
my
computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other
researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by
the
OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of
the
photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the
first in
a series of documents which I will be making available electronically.
I am
making this available through e-mail by request, in the various
Holocaust
archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever
get
my WWW home page set up, it’ll be available there too. If you have any
questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at
philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997).
Feel
free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the
text
and to leave my intro in place. Thank you.
Philip Trauring
Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the
printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches
wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with
the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I
also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it
exactly as I saw it on the page — this means that if you received
this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some
strange characters in the middle of the document — if your mail
reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay.
The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also
uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it
match the styles and such from the original.
——————————————————————
[Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives.
The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces
between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr.
Trauring’s original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm]
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE
POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY
COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING
THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE
MOSCOW 1944
——————————————————————
CONTENTS
page
Preamble …………………………………….1
I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin……..2
II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp………3
III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised
in the Extermination Camp……………….5
IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War
and Civilians in the Camp……………….9
V. Asphyxiation by Gas………………………..13
VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the
Traces of their Heinous Crimes………….18
VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the
Camp of their Valuables and Belongings…..22
Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
————————————————————pg 01–
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION
FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP
IN LUBLIN
The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating
the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A.
Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation
(Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the
Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish
Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister,
President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the
Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin
University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and
Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing
Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission),
Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov,
(representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in
Lublin.
In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive
network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm,
Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places.
To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of
thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France,
Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece,
Denmark, Norway and others.
In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the
massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as
undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the
————————————————————pg 02–
occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and
Jews.
The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of
the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality
and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist
invaders of which international public opinion is already aware.
I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast
slaughter house, which they themselves called ‘Vernichtungslager,’
i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.’
The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in
this camp, testified:
Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen:
“This camp was called ‘Vernichtungslager,’ i.e ‘Extermination
Camp’-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated
here.”
Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe:
“The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest
possible number of people. That is why it was called
‘Vernichtungslager’ i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.'”
The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin,
occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection
was commenced at the end of 1940.
In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were
completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one
hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings
used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred
persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire.
Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a
whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance
to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were
charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall
watch towers were erected in
————————————————————pg 03–
which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The
camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two
hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding
the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which
consisted of criminal elements.
II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP
The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to
forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty
five thousand prisoners were confined there.
The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at
different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and
fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for
the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a
stage on the road to death.
The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army
captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from
Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia,
Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries.
This is established by:
a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large
number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of
different countries of Europe who perished in this camp.
For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria
Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others;
documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw
Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to
French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste
Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak
citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging
to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and
others; documents belong-
————————————————————pg 04–
ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van
der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav
citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents
belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and
others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others,
and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities;
b) the register of deaths in the so-called “Lager-Lazarett,”
but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of
a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are
recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and
fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians,
two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French,
seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities
inhabiting the countries of Western Europe;
c) the evidence of a number of witnesses:
former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who
had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in
the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a
Netherlander, and others.
The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly
augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the
population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the
population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations
and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly
carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe,
and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by
the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe.
Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and
aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp.
The children were of different ages, including infants.
Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of
different nationalities of Europe.
————————————————————pg 05–
III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS
PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
The regime in the “Extermination Camp” served the object of
accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners.
The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation.
The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day
of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of
grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy
grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This
led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of
tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the
prisoners. For the slightest “offence” the prisoners were deprived of
even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically
doomed them to death from starvation.
Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated
before the Commission:
“The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of
the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners
ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking
skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to
swelling resulting from starvation.”
Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the
camp stated:
“I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed
at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their
bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in
large numbers.”
Starvation was one of the important elements of the general
system of extermination that prevailed in the camp.
The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the
barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at
which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had
died in the night had to be taken out to the
————————————————————pg 06–
barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The
roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the
beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and
was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as
dead and killed with clubs.
At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The
work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by
severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning
for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their
fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the
evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners
who had worked “badly,” and these were tied to a form and flogged with
whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from
twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death.
Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner
of the camp, stated:
“I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred
strokes, from which he died three days later.”
In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the
prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The
Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous
expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the
Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member
of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most
arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way.
Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a
prisoner at the camp stated:
“The Germans compelled a large group of professors,
physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand
two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from
one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The
scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy
labour were beaten
————————————————————pg 07–
to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting
labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was
exterminated in the course of five weeks.”
The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an
extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged
“jokes,” which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon
whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of
a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head
with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of
prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual
drowning of the victims.
Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in
particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims
by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them
in the stomach or in the groin, etc,
The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water
that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim’s
head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the
jackboot of the SS man until he expired.
The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their
victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du
Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment,
stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness.
When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as
soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over
again.
For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of
attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp.
In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed
to it about two metres high on which people were hanged.
“From my barrack,” said the witness Domashev, a Soviet
prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, “I saw people hanged on
this post in the middle of the field.”
————————————————————pg 08–
Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No.
2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to
another, from which people were hanged in whole groups.
Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment
and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating
and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women
overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli,
were distinguished for their cruelty.
The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely
unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp.
At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist,
Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium,
Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw
her alive into the furnace.
Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp,
also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium
furnaces..”A child was torn from a mother’s breast and before her eyes
was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed,” stated the
witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated:
“I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and
killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was
kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two.”
The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was
notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners
to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on
the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a
most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners.
Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and
murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the
wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp.
————————————————————pg 09–
IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS
OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP
The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European
countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R.,
was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed
>from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active
part of the Slavonic peoples.
The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale
extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by
the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal
their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the
Majdanek “Extermination Camp,” were also places for the complete
extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of
exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as
undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in
the Lublin “Extermination Camp.”
The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale
shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in
November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet
prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except
for a small group who were tortured to death.
In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of
Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot.
Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp,
stated:
“In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five
thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners
were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old
quarry and there they were shot.”
Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far
back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany
————————————————————pg 10–
were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in
Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek
“Extermination Camp” where they met with the same fate: systematic
torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc.
The witness Reznik stated the following:
“In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners
of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We
were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over
to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided
to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners
who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the
rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew
perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death.”
Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a
few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of
the camp, survived.
In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were
brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four
majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the
aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp.
During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners
in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was
carried on.
Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck
(eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up
eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and
ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the
Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of
all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits
which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically
carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods.
————————————————————pg 11–
In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the
camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days.
On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was
filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires.
In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp,
stated:
“That day, in addition – to the people who were brought from
the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the
Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day
official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand
four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we
had to check their clothing.”
Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office,
stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943:
————————————————————pg 12–
“The Germans called this shooting ‘Sonderbehandlung’ (special
treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to
Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote
literally: ‘The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp
in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the
special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'”
The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent
witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944.
>From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number
of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and
carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were
stripped naked and then shot in the trenches.
“There were days,” stated the witness Niedzialek, who
witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, “when from
two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot.”
The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting
in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1.
Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the
crematorium to be burnt.”
In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the
Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all
loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children.
The witness Gangol stated:
“I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed,
and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS
men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and
a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were
entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in
stacks in the woods and burnt.”
The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of
the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from
Greece.
————————————————————pg 13–
The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only
a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision.
A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of
Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at
the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski,
Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of
the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front;
Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M.
Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of
the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain
Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows:
“The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and
two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to
the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a
wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of
the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre.”
Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other
proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical
Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the
Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of
prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some
of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres
>from Majdanek.
V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS
One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted
to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas.
The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the
Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of
Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major
————————————————————pg 14–
Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the
chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized
for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were
six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of
putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were
adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a
poisonous chemical substance known as “Cyklon.”
Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and
thirty-five canisters containing the substance “Cyklon B,” and several
containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the
following:
“The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of
prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with
the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium.
Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate
reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing
the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . .
Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the
substance ‘Cyklon B’ which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the
form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized
prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in
the camp bearing the label ‘Cyklon’ are identical with ‘Cyklon-B’. .
.. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for
carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:32:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj[email protected]> <4u2gvo$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:29:20 +0000, Chuck Ferree
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 9 Aug 1996 08:21:10 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
>> Schneider) wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote for Matt:
>Giwer, what is your problem?
>This man is a Phd. Professor of chemistry. You’re in way over your
>head. Arguing your limp bullshit with this or any other person who
>obviously knows about 100% more than you do about the subject matter,
>proves once again, that you are bluffing, lying and full of baloney.
>Better you should continue to chase but not catch fat broads.
>Chuck
Chuch Ferree was once trusted with a loaded airplane by the US Army.
Is it not amazing how far people can fall?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:33:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj[email protected]> <4u2gvo$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:36:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:31:32 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
>> Schneider) wrote:
>>
>> >Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with
>> >oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic?
>>
>> It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they
>> exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather
>> worthless, does it not?
>No – that makes ZB an excellent mechanism for transporting HCN.
>But you know that.
As of course you were expected to delete, the claim was that exposure
to oxygen caused an explosion. Alec, you are a very strange engineer.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56502 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:35:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:38:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 9 Aug 1996 18:59:48 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
>>Schneider) wrote:
>>>Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with
>>>oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic?
>>
>> It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they
>>exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather
>>worthless, does it not?
> It is interesting to read that ZB was _liquid_ hydrocyanic acid. I
>thought you said it was wood pulp? What is today’s true truth?
> Or did your reading comprehension take a powder again?
> Or are you just lying again?
>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
You appear to be trying to prove you are illiterate. 98-99% pure HCN
(as a liquid to do vapor pressure else it could not be used) and the
claim was that it exploded on contact with oxygen.
To refresh your third grade science, the air contains oxygen.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:18:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 211
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:20:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 19:02:20 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>(HTML spam deleted)
>> Other than the mistake I made about the
>> >density of apatite, which subsequent posters have indicated that I
>> >may not have been as wrong as I thought, I stand by everything
>> >I wrote.
>>
>> >And as for the lakes, you ignorant putz, I believe that 1481
>> >cubic meters of bone ash, which I roughly calculated would be
>> >formed by burning 1 million men, women and children, dumped in a
>> >lake 1 km by 2 km in size, would form a layer 0.4 mm thick.
>>
>> AND complelely measureable even with 1945 technology.
>But we’re not talking about 1945, bonehead, we’re talking *now*. Have
>you ever seen a core taken from soil, Mattie? Even once? Sure, you
>can detect such a layer. But do you know how hard it is to see something
>0.4 millimeters thick? Try it sometime. Take a 0.5 mm mechanical pencil
>and draw a straight line across a sheet of paper. Then paint the paper
>black and brown, crumple it up and bury it for a year.
>Then show me how easy it is to see that single line. Idiot.
As to your thickness, it would be quite easy visually. But as we know
the sieve size was on centimeter so it would be much easier, not even
causing eyestrain. Further, it is going to be near the shore. Even
distribution over a lake can not be assumed without knowing a
mechanism for it.
And of course you have to keep in mind that there is not one bit of
testimony claiming there was any attempt to hide the consequences of
cremation. There was clearly no reason to do so as there were no
cremations necessary to hide as all of the cremations had a recorded
cause of death, mainly disease.
>> >> You really should find the time to follow the discussion or withdraw
>> >> until you have the time.
>>
>> >People living in glass houses…
>>
>> I would suggest you learn what that means.
>”A person who complains about others making the same mistake he is, a hypocrite”.
>Accurate enough, Mr. Giwer. You hypocrite.
I consistantly state what I am proposing and consistantly support it
with many times the identical material, sometimes with addtions to
that material when it is appropriate. The majority of my material is
based upon things right from Nizkor and other holohugger sources.
What is hypocritical about that?
>> >According to Giwer Math, 0.4 millimeters is such a TERRIBLY ENORMOUS
>> >thickness that people should be struggling through it. Accordingly,
>> >everything you have to say about math is questionable.
>>
>> Find it. No one ever looked for it even when it was fresh.
>No no no, that’s not the way it works. Nice try, bonehead, but no cigar.
>And why would they bother looking in 1945? They had thousands of witnesses,
>truckloads of documents, lots of confessions. I doubt that they thought
>that fifty years later an unemployed loser such as yourself would demand
>evidence for the blatently obvious.
They would look for the 1 cm sieve size then for the same reason they
would look now. To produce physical evidence. It is standard
procedure in all criminal investigations.
But you remember it was a secret and they never produced “thousands”
of witnesses, rather a few dozen who never appeared in person before
any court but all by statement, i.e. no crossexamination. As the
holohuggers are constantly being reminded there are less than ten
docomuments that can be inferred to mean gassing and only one
struggled translation indicates gassing.
As for the confessions, I have a posted a “confession” from Hoess
himself that declares he witnessed the first gassing and that death
was instantaneous. I have posted many other confessions that are
contrary to HCN execution. Rather than reject the confessions, I
welcome them to show they do not describe the gassing they are used to
defend.
As to unemployed, remember, I do not need to be employed. I have the
freedom to do exactly what I want and I have had that freedom for four
years. When you are 65 you will be physically unable to do what I
have been doing for years. I presume you hassle everyone in my
position for the same reasons.
I do not need to play running for president. I do not have the
financial needs of Perot and and Forbes and folks like them. So what
is your problem? That you still have to work for a living?
Why did you not live right in your youth? Because you are still a
youth.
>> >> >BTW – even if it did, the ashes would have been a minor amount of that
>> >> >and the river flow was still more than adequate to get rid of it all.
>> >>
>> >> You certainly know more about fluid flow than to make that claim. And
>> >> then there are the lakes and the land.
>>
>> >Lakes? Lakes you say? Like, more than one? So that the total ash of 1 million
>> >people might not form a 0.4 millimeter thickness in one lake but might be spread
>> >over several, thus thinning it by several orders or magniture?
>>
>> >Would you like me to relaod that shotgun you just fired into your foot?
>>
>> Show your assumptions and your math. The chunks are on the order of
>> 0.5 to 1 cm in size. You millimeter stuff shows only that you are not
>> interested in reading the NG.
>Alright, but only if you pay attention this time.
>Assuming a particle size of 10 millimeters square. Assume 800 cubic meters
>of these particles. That is 800 000 000 cubic centimeters. The *maximum*
>area that can be covered is 80 000 square meters. One hectare is 10000
>square meters, thus this area is 8 hectares.
>About twenty acres. A small farm’s worth. Wow, hard to get rid of…
Been there, done that, did you miss my post on the subject? Your
particle size is WRONG. Correct it.
Even distribution is not in question. There are eyewitness reports of
trying to leave chuncks of bone behind at Treblinka for evidence which
was completely unnecessary. I have posted the calculations based upon
holohuggers claims for Treblinka.
You are ignoring what has been posted and making up your own numbers
as you go along. Deal with the witness claims that the holohuggers
have posted. Not with what you choose to make up as you go along. If
you do not remember, go to DejaNews and read up on it all.
Take Alec with you.
>> >Hey Matt. I bet you I can dump a truckload a day of ash in a slow moving
>> >river the size of the Vistula and come back fifty years later to see that
>> >it is gone. Wanna bet? I’ll be around to check. One of the advantages of
>> >being a “youngster”.
>>
>> Read the fucking newsgroup before you jump again. DejaNews will get
>> you up to date. READ IT ALL!
>Sure thing. Only, I read almost everything said here. Especially your stuff.
>And trust me, bonehead, you should get a clue.
Your almost is not good enough. In this post alone you have
demonstrated you are not dealing with the numbers posted. And
remember, NO REPORTED BONE CRUSHING at Treblinka.
>As for DejaNews it is my number three bookmark. Would you like I should go
>there and dig up some stuff you still haven’t answered, cheesebrain? I
>thought not.
Only if they either your questions or the person posing the questions
is here to read them and will respond to my replies, period.
You may ask your original questions and I will answer them.
More clearly that means that the questions McVay invented AFTER he
publically announced I was in his killfile will not be answered in any
form. I hope that is clear to you.
If McVay can not deal with reality I will not deal with his
surrogates.
>> >> And if you review your fluid flow you will certainly agree the ashes
>> >> are either still there or an estimatable distance downstream moving as
>> >> a mass. That the Russians did not feel it necessary to verify the
>> >> stories in 1945 speaks volumes for the basis for their case.
>>
>> >Bullshit, Giwer. What you know about hydrogeology I can write on the tip of
>> >my pinkie finger with a paintbrush. A slowly moving mass going downriver?
>> >Absolute garbage. Even if this stuff did sink it would not stay in one place
>> >or move as a unit. Even heavy metals like gold are distributed downstream
>> >and certainly do not move as a mass, so I have no idea why the laws of
>> >nature should suddenly change just Because! You! Say! So!
>>
>> You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and
>> bottoms of rivers.
>>
>> And now you are pissed and want to save your ego with an attack.
>>
>> That is human and understandable.
>>
>> That you remain on the attack when so clearly wrong is not
>> understandable.
>It should be for you. Want to tell us again when the term “United Nations”
>was first used?
>You will note that Giwer cannot respond and thus is reduced to the childish
>tactic of saying “Is not! Is not!”
>Get a clue, you simpering twit.
I agree, you were completely wrong about flow rates and damn near
everything else you claimed to know about rivers. But you posted it
to support your favorite holocaust even though you knew better.
Why would an honest person do that?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56508 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 06:21:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u7v5l$f[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 1:23:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:25:04 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement, as far as being
>># able to destroy, and wasn’t developed until a certain
>># time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there
>># already. It is also evident, going by Holocaust facts,
>>that
>># carbon monoxide was used with relative ease compared to
>>what
>># the Germans had to go through with Zyklon B.
>>Hardly. Bottled CO was rather expensive and difficult to
>>ship around in large quantities. Engine exhaust caused
>>problems (we have the report about an explosion taking
>>place in Chelmno), engines would break down, and it is
>>not clear how it would apply for the huge gas chambers
>>of Birkenau.
> Nizkor > Ftp > camps > “majdanek .004”. A Soviet report states
>they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO.
And it is there, and real “evidence of the holohugger kind” and also
one more example that Nizkor is extremely revisionist or at least a
great source for revisionists if they are willing to dig deep enough.
> You say a report on an explosion from exhaust fumes.
No. He mentioned an explosion. He left it to you to assume exhaust
fumes that were related to gassing people. Odds on, he is making it
all up.
It must have
>been a freak accident. The process was simple by most Holocaust facts.
>An engine, some pipes, and that was it. It is said that over 3,000,000
>people were killed with carbon monoxide gas from the engine source,
>and you point to a report about “an explosion taking place”, from
>exhaust fumes.
But of course at the time of the ZB “experiment” they had decided to
use gas but did not know which gas even though CO had been in
successful use for a year. I only quote the experts here.
>>Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a
>>very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS
>>had a great deal of experience with using it.
> So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was cost effective over
>carbon monoxide?
> The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and
>transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the carrier and
>shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the HCN and shipping, the
>making of the product (under specialized conditions one would think),
>packaging in the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other
>little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. Printing that had
>to be put on the side of the cans. Training teams, and a slue of other
>expense considerations.
> With the carbon monoxide trick, all one had to do is put a little
>gas in the engine, start it up, turn it off.
> Seems like Zyklon B could cost 10 or 20 times that for the carbon
>monoxide procedure.
But they knew all of that before they chose the stranger method.
>># And as Ehrich’s post shows, with more direct approach than
>># Mr.Keren and company’s tactics of referring people to
>># some “images” written in German,
>>Can you elaborate?
> Ehrlich’s post is in English. He seems to have posted the
>material itself, instead of just referring people to it.
>># the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
>># since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have
>># been used with 87.5%,
>>More than 12.5; but this is not really crucial.
> “Not really crucial”? Crucial to what? It’s capacity to kill, or
>its cost effectiveness. Maybe you are referring to some other
>”crucial”.
> I see you have employed one of your favorite practices here.
>”More than …” without saying how much more.
As a mathematician he knows that quantification is anathema to
mathematics. That is why he refuses to ever post any numbers.
The self proclaimed PhD mathematician has not posted one calculation
since I have been here this time. I would think by now it is clear
this person has not the slightest concept of math. Perhaps it is
simply a commentary upon our present university system much like the
failures of gradeschool math education.
> Anyway, here you have just offered up the proposal that the
>Germans may have chosen Zyklon B over carbon monoxide because of
>expense considerations and here you are saying something about “not
>really crucial” in relation to the figures showing that 87.5% of the
>product would have been un-necessary, wasted.
Simple economic calculations are beyond him also.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:22:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:24:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56509 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:439
On 9 Aug 1996 17:00:47 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or
>>uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know
>>that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories.
>>
>> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you have
>>grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no
>>burning unless other testimony is false.
>>
>> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string
>>requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any
>>manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that
>>will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to
>>that sort of thing.
> Ho-hum. More unsupported (and false) assertions from the confessed
>liar.
>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
> If he wants me to stop bringing up his confession that he is a liar
>every time he lies or makes unsupported assertions, there is a very simple
>way for him to get me to stop. Do you suppose he can put his 163 IQ
>points in gear and figure out what it is?
> Followups set appropriately.
>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given
a check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of
fuel.”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:44 PDT 1996
Article: 56510 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran’s Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:12:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 701
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31f614a6.14[email protected]> <4tcs0j$l5n@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31fa164d.9386[email protected]> <4ti5f0[email protected]> <4tp8ru[email protected]> <4tpoj6[email protected]> <4tr6a[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:15:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:41:30 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> On 1 Aug 1996 22:07:14 +0100, [email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >> Do you really wish to continue to advertise the conspiratorital libel
>> >>of Nizkor?
>>
>> > Threatening to sue again, Prince Myshkin?
>>
>> It that is truly a quesion, only a real idiot could inger it
> ^^^^^
>Only a real idiot, Mr. Giwer?
>
>An idiot, say, like the one who wrote the above sentence?
>
>Please don’t keep us in suspense, Mr. Giwer. Tell us what “inger” means. I
>believe we all have a paupacy of Giwerese.
>
>Sara
>–
>”It’s always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice.”
> John Sayles, _Lone Star_
Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004
Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004
Last-Modified: 1994/10/31
In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came
across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry
which
was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the
Majdanek
concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is
especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the
first
camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the
Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their
crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in
the
whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also),
the
one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford
University.
Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into
my
computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other
researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by
the
OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of
the
photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the
first in
a series of documents which I will be making available electronically.
I am
making this available through e-mail by request, in the various
Holocaust
archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever
get
my WWW home page set up, it’ll be available there too. If you have any
questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at
philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997).
Feel
free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the
text
and to leave my intro in place. Thank you.
Philip Trauring
Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the
printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches
wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with
the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I
also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it
exactly as I saw it on the page — this means that if you received
this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some
strange characters in the middle of the document — if your mail
reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay.
The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also
uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it
match the styles and such from the original.
——————————————————————
[Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives.
The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces
between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr.
Trauring’s original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm]
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE
POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY
COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING
THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE
MOSCOW 1944
——————————————————————
CONTENTS
page
Preamble …………………………………….1
I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin……..2
II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp………3
III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised
in the Extermination Camp……………….5
IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War
and Civilians in the Camp……………….9
V. Asphyxiation by Gas………………………..13
VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the
Traces of their Heinous Crimes………….18
VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the
Camp of their Valuables and Belongings…..22
Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
————————————————————pg 01–
COMMUNIQUE
OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION
FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP
IN LUBLIN
The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating
the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A.
Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation
(Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the
Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish
Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister,
President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the
Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin
University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and
Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing
Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission),
Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov,
(representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in
Lublin.
In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive
network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm,
Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places.
To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of
thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France,
Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece,
Denmark, Norway and others.
In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the
massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as
undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the
————————————————————pg 02–
occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and
Jews.
The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of
the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality
and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist
invaders of which international public opinion is already aware.
I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN
In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast
slaughter house, which they themselves called ‘Vernichtungslager,’
i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.’
The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in
this camp, testified:
Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen:
“This camp was called ‘Vernichtungslager,’ i.e ‘Extermination
Camp’-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated
here.”
Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe:
“The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest
possible number of people. That is why it was called
‘Vernichtungslager’ i.e., ‘Extermination Camp.'”
The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin,
occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection
was commenced at the end of 1940.
In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were
completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one
hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings
used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred
persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire.
Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a
whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance
to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were
charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall
watch towers were erected in
————————————————————pg 03–
which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The
camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two
hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding
the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which
consisted of criminal elements.
II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP
The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to
forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty
five thousand prisoners were confined there.
The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at
different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and
fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for
the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a
stage on the road to death.
The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army
captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from
Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia,
Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries.
This is established by:
a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large
number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of
different countries of Europe who perished in this camp.
For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria
Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others;
documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw
Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to
French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste
Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak
citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging
to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and
others; documents belong-
————————————————————pg 04–
ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van
der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav
citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents
belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and
others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others,
and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities;
b) the register of deaths in the so-called “Lager-Lazarett,”
but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of
a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are
recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and
fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians,
two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French,
seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities
inhabiting the countries of Western Europe;
c) the evidence of a number of witnesses:
former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who
had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in
the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a
Netherlander, and others.
The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly
augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the
population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the
population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations
and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly
carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe,
and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by
the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe.
Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and
aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp.
The children were of different ages, including infants.
Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of
different nationalities of Europe.
————————————————————pg 05–
III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS
PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
The regime in the “Extermination Camp” served the object of
accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners.
The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation.
The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day
of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of
grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy
grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This
led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of
tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the
prisoners. For the slightest “offence” the prisoners were deprived of
even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically
doomed them to death from starvation.
Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated
before the Commission:
“The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of
the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners
ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking
skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to
swelling resulting from starvation.”
Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the
camp stated:
“I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed
at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their
bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in
large numbers.”
Starvation was one of the important elements of the general
system of extermination that prevailed in the camp.
The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the
barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at
which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had
died in the night had to be taken out to the
————————————————————pg 06–
barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The
roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the
beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and
was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as
dead and killed with clubs.
At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The
work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by
severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning
for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their
fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the
evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners
who had worked “badly,” and these were tied to a form and flogged with
whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from
twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death.
Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner
of the camp, stated:
“I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred
strokes, from which he died three days later.”
In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the
prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The
Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous
expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the
Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member
of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most
arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way.
Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a
prisoner at the camp stated:
“The Germans compelled a large group of professors,
physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand
two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from
one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The
scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy
labour were beaten
————————————————————pg 07–
to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting
labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was
exterminated in the course of five weeks.”
The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an
extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged
“jokes,” which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon
whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of
a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head
with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of
prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual
drowning of the victims.
Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in
particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims
by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them
in the stomach or in the groin, etc,
The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water
that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim’s
head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the
jackboot of the SS man until he expired.
The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their
victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du
Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment,
stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness.
When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as
soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over
again.
For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of
attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp.
In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed
to it about two metres high on which people were hanged.
“From my barrack,” said the witness Domashev, a Soviet
prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, “I saw people hanged on
this post in the middle of the field.”
————————————————————pg 08–
Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No.
2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to
another, from which people were hanged in whole groups.
Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment
and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating
and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women
overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli,
were distinguished for their cruelty.
The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely
unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp.
At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist,
Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium,
Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw
her alive into the furnace.
Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp,
also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium
furnaces..”A child was torn from a mother’s breast and before her eyes
was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed,” stated the
witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated:
“I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and
killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was
kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two.”
The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was
notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners
to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on
the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a
most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners.
Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and
murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the
wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp.
————————————————————pg 09–
IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS
OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP
The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European
countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R.,
was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed
>from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active
part of the Slavonic peoples.
The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale
extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by
the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal
their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the
Majdanek “Extermination Camp,” were also places for the complete
extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of
exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as
undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in
the Lublin “Extermination Camp.”
The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale
shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in
November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet
prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except
for a small group who were tortured to death.
In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of
Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot.
Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp,
stated:
“In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five
thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners
were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old
quarry and there they were shot.”
Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far
back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany
————————————————————pg 10–
were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in
Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek
“Extermination Camp” where they met with the same fate: systematic
torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc.
The witness Reznik stated the following:
“In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners
of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We
were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over
to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided
to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners
who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the
rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew
perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death.”
Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a
few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of
the camp, survived.
In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were
brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four
majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the
aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp.
During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners
in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was
carried on.
Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck
(eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up
eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and
ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the
Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of
all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits
which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically
carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods.
————————————————————pg 11–
In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the
camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days.
On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was
filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires.
In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp,
stated:
“That day, in addition – to the people who were brought from
the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the
Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day
official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand
four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we
had to check their clothing.”
Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office,
stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943:
————————————————————pg 12–
“The Germans called this shooting ‘Sonderbehandlung’ (special
treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to
Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote
literally: ‘The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp
in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the
special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'”
The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent
witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944.
>From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number
of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and
carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were
stripped naked and then shot in the trenches.
“There were days,” stated the witness Niedzialek, who
witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, “when from
two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot.”
The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting
in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1.
Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the
crematorium to be burnt.”
In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the
Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all
loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children.
The witness Gangol stated:
“I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed,
and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS
men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and
a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were
entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in
stacks in the woods and burnt.”
The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of
the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from
Greece.
————————————————————pg 13–
The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only
a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision.
A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of
Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at
the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski,
Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of
the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front;
Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M.
Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of
the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain
Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows:
“The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and
two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to
the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a
wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of
the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre.”
Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other
proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical
Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the
Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of
prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some
of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres
>from Majdanek.
V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS
One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted
to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas.
The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the
Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of
Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major
————————————————————pg 14–
Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the
chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized
for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were
six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of
putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were
adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a
poisonous chemical substance known as “Cyklon.”
Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and
thirty-five canisters containing the substance “Cyklon B,” and several
containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the
following:
“The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of
prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with
the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium.
Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate
reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing
the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . .
Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the
substance ‘Cyklon B’ which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the
form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized
prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in
the camp bearing the label ‘Cyklon’ are identical with ‘Cyklon-B’. .
.. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for
carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 11:33:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56513 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:27:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:29:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 20:36:05 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>[To [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken)]
># When you ask for my daughter’s number you are ready
># for the grave.
>It’s interesting to see how protective and caring (apparently,
>at least), this person is towards his own family, while being
>such a sadist wherever other people are considered.
Alec may remember enough to tell yuou why I am laughing at you folks.
Then again, you folks may be bright enough to figure it out for
yourselfes, but I doubt it.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 12:14:03 PDT 1996
Article: 56523 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:49:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4ueh[email protected]> <4ufq6g$[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:51:49 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:24:35 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >Sorry, Matt–you’re the creationist here. You’re the one arguing
>> >a fringe position, not even regarded as worthy of debate by experts
>> >in the field.
>>
>> So did Wegner. So what?
>The only problem is that Wegner had evidence. You got zippo, nada and
>even less. What cooked Wegner’s goose at the time was the mechanism
>he proposed which geologists knew wouldn’t work, *not* that continents
>never moved.
>Do try and stick to things you understand.
Wegner, as you know, had only the shape of the continents on his side.
It would be good if you would learn what you are talking about some
day. He had NO mechanism for motion. That mechanism did not come
unil the mid-60s with the mid-Atlantic ridge being defined.
Sorry, nerfbrain, I have forgotten more about this than any riverine
fluid flow “expert” will ever know. Give it up. You have not the
slighest idea what is going on in the first place.
But of course you had to jump in claiming you knew what you were
talking about.
What did you do really, take a community college course at one time?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 12:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 56524 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don’t mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings]
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:53:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <320b3e8f.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:55:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 9 Aug 1996 14:27:48 -0700, [email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>> Do your own poll. Ask people if they can identify the source and
>>type of gas(es) said to have been used during the Holocaust.
>>
>> When the answer comes up, ‘I don’t know’, ask them why they
>>don’t. Let them think about that for a while.
>Are you advocating further education on the technical aspects of the
>Holocaust now? It was more than fifty years ago, you know; what would be
>the point? I think the general nonspecialist understanding of the fact
>that Hitler’s Nazi regime murdered some 10-12 million people, some 5-6
>million of whom were Jews targeted for extermination solely on the basis
>of being Jews, is sufficent.
Excuse me. But were the homosexuals, gypsies, and Slavs not also
targeted solely on the basis of being homosexuals, gypsies and Slavs?
If not, why are you making a false distinction? Once you admit race
as a criteria then ALL were exterminated based upon what they were and
Jews were nothing in particular but at worst, available.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 12:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 56531 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: the coward McVay
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:31:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:33:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 12:14:06 PDT 1996
Article: 56532 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:27:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4tcovo$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:29:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56532 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:440
On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 12:32:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Freedom of speech violations?
>>
>> > I suggest that you be polite. Very polite. Also, keep your hands in
>> >sight and don’t make any sudden moves.
>>
>> Right. Thanks a lot.
>Don’t get too cocky, Matt.
>Seriously!
What would it matter at this point? On the presumption that now three
people claim to have been questioned by everything from the FBI to
federal prosecutors. I would say my fate is either sealed or they
have actually discovered this is a flame conference.
And now we have an “attorney” who is going to make a call about my
response to a request for my daughter’s address. You may remember
enough about our conversations to get a chuckle out of that one. You
do remember my daughter, don’t you?
>> >> I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay’s “complaint.”
>>
>> > Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home
>> >recently asking me about you change your presumption any?
>>
>> It was the FBI last time you told the story.
>So?
>Matt, bad news – the FBI investigates, but the Justice Department would
>be the ones ascertaining whether to go ahead with actually pressing
>charges.
Prosecutors invite you to their office. They do not go out visiting
people.
>It’s an election year, Matt.
And I will make Janet Reno look real good and Clinton proud. It will
be front page headlines across the country. I will be interviewed by
CNN. I can make Larry King kiss me.
I can see it now, Flt 800 and the Olympics bombing pushed right out of
the news. It will be a surefire re-election getter.
>I’m not expecting you to come to a valid conclusion – but try, anyway.
And then there are the book sales … and the movie rights.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 12:14:07 PDT 1996
Article: 56536 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:30:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:32:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:58:24 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## Listen, you senile piece of dreck. If you’re accusing me
>## of posting something, you better have the proof.
># Is that another threat?
>This is not a threat, and I’ve never made any threats
>against anyone.
>It’s just a statement: you’re a lying piece of trash who
>accuses people of posting things they never posted.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given
a check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of
fuel.”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 15:52:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built’
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:19:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 174
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:21:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:37:44 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka
>[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247]
>———————————————————————–
>When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl.
>He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports
>than could be “processed” in the camp. That meant that trains had to
>wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport
>had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a
>result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense
>heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on
>the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka
>and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr. Eberl was no
>longer there…
>For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and
>then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The
>two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine
>branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The
>same thing was done along the route from the “transfer” area to the
>gas chambers…
>Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there
>were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how
>many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers
>could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice
>that number…
>Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be
>shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The
>commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be
>here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also
>present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had
>to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after
>the occupants had been ordered to get out.
>When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word
>with them. They were told something to the effect that they were a
>resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they
>would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet
>and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day.
>Then the transports were taken off to the so-called “transfer” area.
>The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The
>women were than led through a passageway, known as the “tube”, to the
>gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand
>in their jewellery and valuables..
>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
The problem is that every
person recorded to have been sent to a camp is accounted for to
the limits of record keeping errors. Many died of disease,
accident, old age and all the rest but none are recorded to have
died of gassing. And, given the end when the system broke down
and starvation took over and record keeping was not possible, the
numbers are still about right.
To assign people to death from
gassing in these camps it is necessary to arbitrarily and without
justification assign some 2.5 to 3 million people from the
untraceable category to the camps category without any claim of
tracing them. It is a completely capricious procedure.
Thus they have to claim that
they can divine from departure and arrival figures of people who
were shipped by train, the number that disappeared and that they
were gassed. This is quite an interesting claim but as they have
a preconceived conclusion, anyting will support it.
But there are alternate
explanations. For example, the time of greatest gassing at
Auschwitz is cited to be in the summer of 1944. That is because
the greatest number of departures but no recorded arrivals
occurred at that time.
On face value, that would
appear damning. But something is being overlooked. That is that
the allies were destroying anything and everything that moved
because they had air superiority and trains with civilians were
no exception. It might have been nice to make an exception but
there was no way to tell from the air.
That only covers the end of
the war. The earlier phase of disappearances was in 1941. That
was when Russia was permitting people to escape through the lines
to refuge in Russia. Almost.
Russia did a little bit of
filtering in the refuge matter. Anyone, man or woman, who was
capable of handling a rifle was given one, turned around and
pointed towards the advancing Germans. This was a useless
gesture at that time in the war. They died on the battlefield.
If their names were even recorded, they are still hidden some
place in the Russian archives.
These two sources of the
vanished 31 million do not account for a larger and
nonrepresentative fraction of Jews that disappeared. For that
there are several possibilities. I am not claiming these are
explanations but rather that they did occur and need to be
considered cumulatively.
First, Jews had a reason to
run from the Germans due to the known internment in concentration
camp policy. Thus they would be most likely to run into the
hands of the Russians, be given a rifle and turned around to face
the Panzer Divisions.
Second, those that did not run
often put their children in orphanages (run by Christians just
like the Nazis) and their children were reported, raised and such
as Christian, not Jewish and never reappeared on the roles of
Jewish population.
Third, given the Russian
policy, women with children were not suitable to be given a rifle
they continue into Russia. Did they return? Did they marry?
Convert?
In line with the third, did
Russia every keep records by religion or ethinicity? Why would
an atheist society that did not officially believe in Mendelevian
genetics do so? Jews would vanish without a trace into such a
society just like Jewish immigrants vanish without a trace into
the US as the US does not keep records by religion. Like it or
not, Silberstein and Demjanjuk are identical save for country of
origin in the US.
Fourth, how many Jews vanished
into the United States? The US keeps no records by religion on
immigrants. So how many vanished into the US?
Although Latin America appears
to get a lot of credit for harboring ex-Nazis, in fact the
countries have large German communities, not Christian-German,
German. How many Jews “vanished” to Latin America?
But this begs the question of
where the 31 million went. Russia does not have the slighest
idea where 15 million of its people went. The Jewish “losses”
pale in comparison but are at the same time quite explainable.
And given the easily
explainable reasons for “transported but did not arrive” it is
clear that the allies, even at this late date and in the
interests of accuracy, do not want to admit what clearly
happened. Early in the war, the Russians used the escaped as
cannon fodder against the Germans and towards the end all the
Allies were destroying people in the transport trains.
It is much easier to leave it
all to the “evil Nazis” than to resurrect the matter this
generation. It will take at least another twenty years to face
this one directly.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 15:52:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56566 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!msunews!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!taurus.bv.sgi.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here’s a novel idea
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 07:46:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:48:19 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:58:02 GMT, [email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>Michael P. Stein
>> Ray Fischer
>>>Chuck Ferree
>>>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust?
>>>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the
>>>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names?
>>>
>>>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>>>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>>>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.
>>
>>Since you questioned someone else’s motives, it is only fair to
>>question yours. Your evasion is noted.
>My motive is simply to determine the truth.
>>>Piss off.
>>
>> Why don’t you do something really unique? State your theory of what
>>happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
>>during WWII.
>And be called an anti-semite if I dare to deviate one smidge from the
>Approved Truth? No thank you.
>You have learned nothing when Correctness and Acceptance are
>more important than the search for truth.
It is more acceptance than correctness. Here they all are with
feelings of persecution and they are taking after those they suppose
persecute them. From birth they have been indoctrinated with “you are
jewish, you are persecuted” and it is difficult for them to cast off
that foolishness.
Were any of them ever persecuted? Other than being gassed six times
that is. Of course not.
The latest has been an idiot “for the children” plea claiming that
children are coming home beat up because they were Jewish. People
claiming that were never children and NEVER verified the incident.
The kid breaks the parents’ rule against fighting, comes home with
signs of being in a fight, and gives the parents a story he knows they
will believe because they are suckers.
It is quite amusing these people have not grown up yet and will not
admit they did the same thing as kids.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 15:52:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:56:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:58:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:00:09 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
>In article
>wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> # [email protected] (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>
>> ## the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in
>> ## 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them.
>>
>> # It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up.
>>
>> I didn’t make it up. I am not a worthless liar like you.
>>
>> # Perhaps you can point to Nizkor or any other site that
>> # supports it?
>>
>> It’s reported in Pressac’s book, with, as I recall, a
>> photograph of the ventilation grills. I don’t have the
>> book handy; perhaps someone can check. If not, I will
>> post the page number when I return home, in about 3 weeks.
>Document 54; _Technique_, p.233.
>The caption to the photo reads:
>”Rear view of one of the 145 galvenized plates, perforated by hand, which
>were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air ducts in the upper part
>of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III, now kept in PMO <
>Block 25. Toxicological analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow
>Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus Street) on 4 complete plates and 2
>damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Kremtorium II. After
>scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal,
>7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative
>analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report,
>signed by Dr. Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and
>transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn.”
As I was just posting about holohuggers disagreeing as to what the
pillars were like it is good to see that you provide an example.
Nizkor has a drawing of one of them made of wire mesh. On the other
hand Pressac appears to be implying they were made out of galvanized
iron.
And if not that, suddendly the fresh air input was, for no reason
other than to restrict the air flow, by adding a wooden framework and
performated plate ductwork.
As for the report, it is interesting for its lack of completeness that
the “white substance” is not identified. It also fails the claim for
the more recent test in being a single data point and ignoring the
desire to fumigate a morgue. Remembering of course that it worked
quite well on rats it would be surprising if cyanide compounds were
not found. Also note that report is qualitative, not quantitative.
Qualitatively, one fumigation could account for it.
It would be interesting to have the original study posted.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 15:52:49 PDT 1996
Article: 56582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Reaches new Heights Of Insanity (Re: the Zyklon B
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:31:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:34:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:06:06 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
> Summary: Giwer reflects on the strength of the SS-men,
> and reaches some amazing conclusions
> —————————————————–
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># I have no idea what you are talking about. Both an
># exponential and a polynomial curve fit are given.
>Extrapolated from one single (erroneous) data point.
>Didn’t Rudolph himself agree in his e-mail to “ehrlich”
>that his conclusions were false?
># As everyone should know, any curve can be represented by
># any other curve with only quality of fit being of interest.
>I have a great deal of interest in fitting data. Perhaps
>you can explain what you wrote above. It has no mathematical
>meaning whatsoever.
If you do not understand the r value of a curve fit then you do not
understand a thing. You have never heard of the deviance of the data
>from the chosen curve fit? Do you wish to continue with your claim?
># If there is MORE accurate information in that paper, POST
># THE GRAPH given in that paper. Post the paper at least.
>The paper is posted on the web for about 2 months now, as
>you know well. The most relevant and important piece of
>information there is that, even at very low temp., the
>whole HCN outgassed in “an hour, or at most two”. And this
>is from 1941, so we’re talking about WW2 era Zyklon, not
>some other product manufactured 50 years later.
You said it was BETTER. Post the graph.
># Go take another look at it and note the amount released in
># the 10-15 minute time frame which is the most common
># description of the time frame. THEN calculate backwards
># to find the amount that had to be dumped in to achieve
># lethality in that time frame.
># And then, when you discover that two people could not carry
># enough to do it,
>This is somewhat sad. Giwer, you’re insane.
From a PhD in math who never heard of the rms “r”esidual values of
deviation from the chosen curve fit model, I am hardly impressed.
>Let’s take a look at the Peters-Rasch paper (page 136).
>The second experiment they’re discussing deals with a place
>with a volume of 4,311 cubic meters. That’s more than 10
>times the volume of the largest gas chambers.
>They used 43.2 Kg. But, remember, this is for a room more
>than 10 times larger than the gas chambers, plus you’re
>talking about delousing, which requires a far higher
>concentration than homicidal gassing. So you’re talking
>about 4 Kg or so. The SS-men could carry that up the
>ladder, I assume.
So where is what you were challenged to present?
>Get a grip. You’re going down the tubes.
If you have a PhD in math you are going down for your sponsor.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 15:52:50 PDT 1996
Article: 56585 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:12:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <320b3feb.89604[email protected]> <[email protected]> <320c931b.22[email protected]> <4uievs$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:14:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 18:14:33 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:
>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:
>>>>Next thing you’ll be telling me JFK shot himself.
>>
>>> Actually I have done some investigation on that. I have read a
>>>few books, seen a couple of films, and heard peoples views on the
>>>conspiracy theories. I have also visited Dallas and spent a day in the
>>>area. In spite of all the books, the films and opinions, I think Lee
>>>Harvey Oswald did it. Whether there was a conspiracy behind him, I
>>>don’t know.
>>
>>[Actually, I’m sure LHO was the man himself — just trying to punch up the
>>absurdity of what I was being confronted with here. Of *course* JFK didn’t
>>shoot himself. But then again, maybe Oliver Stone would like to make a
>>movie about *that* as well?…]
> According to Oliver Stone, the likely culprits were, the CIA, the
>FBI, the Sicilian Mafia, the Corsican Mafia, the corporate world in
>cahoots with Lyndon Johnson and/or Fidel Castro.
I have no firm opinion upon who killed who or why but I have an
opinion are a person who has shot a similar design rifle many times.
If LHO did the killing, the third was a lucky shot, period, end of
discussion.
I invite anyone to duplicate the feat with one of those old Mauser
copies. And it is harder with a scope than without as it takes longer
to sight in. Iron sights are faster and the FBI said the scope was
misaligned.
BTW: The Carcano is a legal non-gun if you find one an want to walk
out with it. It should cost no more than $100 over the counter.
It all has to be put down to the accident that changed the world.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960810: One student’s impression of EZ
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:26:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:28:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2494 alt.revisionism:56610
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:27:56 -0700, [email protected] (E.
Zundel Repost) wrote:
>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not represent the views of the
>poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant URLs. A good
>place to start is https://nizkor.org/features/ or, if you’re in Europe,
>ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>———— BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ————
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>One of my Zundelsite missions is to translate the man behind the red hot
>question mark: “Did Six Million Really Die?” that has already cost a
>kingdom on both sides, and no end yet in sight.
You would do better to deal with, “Did 12 million really die?” (And
if so, when, where and how.)
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:08:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:11:07 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 14:49:44 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> How do I make threats regarding the address of my daughter when I
>have
>> no daughter?
> Tell it to the judge, Matty poo. He will call you a liar too. Your death
>threat was made about any *call* to you about your daughter’s phone number.
>Whether or not you had a daughter is irrelevant to your threat.
>> I have no daughter. How simple do I have to make it for an attonrey?
> The threat did not relate to your daughter but a phone call about your
>daughter. How simple do I have to make it for a criminal?
>> What have you reported? That I have no daugher?
> No. Your death threat.
>> You folks are fucking stupid.
> You are a criminal.
You are an asshole.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:39 PDT 1996
Article: 56621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don’t mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings]
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:48:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <320b3e8f.54[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:57 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:52:27 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Excuse me. But were the homosexuals, gypsies, and Slavs not also
>>targeted solely on the basis of being homosexuals, gypsies and Slavs?
> Good point Giwwwwwwwwwwwer. The Jews are always trying to
>distinguish their alleged fatalities as special above all the rest of
>the alleged fatalities.
There is a Wiesel quote around somewhere to the effect of, unlike
homosexuals Jews were killed for what they were rather than for what
they did.
Rather the gay basher.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:39 PDT 1996
Article: 56622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:51:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <320b3feb.89604[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4uhlb1$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uiesp$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:53:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:44:10 GMT, [email protected] (Serdar
Yegulalp) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> That is correct. Every burned body is accounted for by enterance and
>>death records. And with that no gassing is required and no impossible
>>cremation rates are required.
>> So what is your problem?
>How are they impossible?
16 times faster than the best of modern technology according to Keren.
But the point is that there is no need for any gassing if everyone was
recorded. And that question is, if they were not recorded, how do you
know that they were ever in the camp?
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I’m not a revisionist but here’s a thought
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:53:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4u9m12$[email protected]> <4ud9[email protected]> <4ueu[email protected]> <4ug354$[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:55:35 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:30:57 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On 9 Aug 1996 19:22:12 GMT, [email protected] (william c
>>anderson) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>: I use the term to everyone who, like a creationist, appears otherwise
>>>: sane but has a total belief in gassing without the slighest bit of
>>>: physical evidence.
>>>:
>>>: But you know that, holohugger.
>>
>>
>>
>>>CREATIONISTS: HOLOCAUST DENIERS:
>>
>>>Have little or no support Have little or no support
>>>among scientists. among historians.
>>
>> Historians involved in the holocaust are exceedingly rare as the
>>penalties for publishing anything contrary to the existing mythology
>>are quite severe.
>>
>What are these penalties? Cite a few examples for us uninformed folk.
>Then why is Christopher Browning doing so well?
Ask Irving about it.
>> Scientists, however, rely upon physical evidence while holohuggers
>>have none,
>Massive lie folks. Giwer keeps repeating it though. Everyone knows
>better, of course.
Be the first to post the physical evidence.
>> only testimony such as the man who was gassed six times and
>>lived to tell about it.
>Who was this?
Please. I have posted it at least a dozen times. Are you now
claiming you have never read it?
>> Gasse six time, creation in six days, not
>>much difference.
>>
>>>Present no evidence to Present no evidence to
>>>support their position. support their position.
>>
>> They merely point to the lack of evidence for gassing.
>>
>I would have said that neither side can substantiate their arguments
>while historians of the holocuast tend to substantiate their claims
>very easily.
Which historians have dealt with physical evidence? Real historians
now, not the honorary ones.
>>>Rely entirely on picking Rely entirely on picking
>>>tiny holes around the tiny holes around the
>>>fringes of the theory fringes of the accepted
>>>of evolution. account of the Holocaust.
>>
>> Rather they attack the heart of the gassing stories, the complete and
>>total lack of evidence for it.
>Because this self proclaimed genius says so!!!
Who better?
>>>Must postulate a huge Must postulate a huge
>>>conspiracy, directed conspiracy, directed
>>>by humanists, to account by Zionists, to account
>>>for their refutation of for their refutation of
>>>evolution being covered the Holocaust being covered
>>>up for so long. up for so long.
>>
>> Not really. Simple stupidity will explain it all.
>It does explain you, sir.
It explains huggery.
>>>Once read a book by Duanne Once read a book by Bradley
>>>Gish, and are now convinced Smith, and are now convinced
>>>they know the Truth which they know the Truth which
>>>has eluded everybody who’s has eluded everybody who’s
>>>given serious study to the given serious study to the
>>>issue. issue.
>>
>> Never read such a book in my life. It was obvious there was something
>>wrong when I discovered ZB was cyanide. The witness descriptions
>>simply do not match cyanide.
>You haven’t read any book in your life it would appear.
First you blame reading a book and then you do not blame reading a
book. Which will it be?
>>>Aren’t above lying and Aren’t above lying and
>>>distorting the words of distorting the words of
>>>scientists in order to opponents in order to
>>>support their Higher Truth. support their Higher Truth.
>>
>> Rather it is more interesting that holohuggers are so willing to
>>believe all the contradictory and impossible things that are known
>>about their holocaust.
>Such as?
I have many more than this.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given
a check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of
fuel.”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
>>>You make the call, Matt. From here, it looks like the only difference
>>>is that creationists are basically well-intentioned crackpots, while
>>>Holocaust deniers are actively engaged in polishing up the memory of
>>>one of the greatest mass murders in history, and spitting on the graves
>>>of twelve million human beings.
>>
>> If you ever get the story straight about those who are laughing at the
>>idiocy of burning people without fuel
>Who says it was without fuel, Mr. Giwer? You? We must do better than
>that.
As above. Anything else?
>> and the like you might be able
>>to create an honest comparison. In the mean time, your pointing out
>>the lack of physical evidence is quite a good thing.
>You are the one doing all the empty pointing. It must be frustrating.
But there are attorneys who swear testimony is physical evidence on
this conference. If you believe them, that is your problem.
>> Remember the time we were over the actual layouts of LK I and II and
>>we discovered that not one “witness” ever described the buildings?
>>All you folks have going for you is long after the fact speculation.
>>
>Because he says so! Amazing. I give him a week and he’s killfiled
>again. It’s the same old nonsense warmed over!
Because that is the way it is.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56630 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.id.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!News1.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words… (was McVay, never a Marine…)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:38:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:40:38 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:39014 alt.politics.nationalism.white:27065 alt.revisionism:56630 alt.skinheads:34465
On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 05:23:54 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Parliament does not apply in the US and never will. We are armed.
>Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
Statement of fact, fatbroad.
I am still waiting for the FBI to show up.
I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay’s “complaint.”
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The coward McVay
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:41:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:43:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions. His
lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as
stupid as is McVay.
Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond
to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his
shell.
But as with all holohuggers, he is a lying piece of shit who has no
right to claim he is posting is public as he has not the teats to face
her accusers.
She is a worthless piece of trash and of no value to any discussion
here as she hides behind a killfile.
She is a coward, an animal, a female animal. The lowest of the low in
an NG such as this.
IT is not worthy to walk the earth without half the Marine Corp being
mobilized against it. (Call your local prosecutor for further
information but certainly report it soon. They are lock and lock as I
type.)
McVay is worthless scum who has organized several co-consprirators to
its bidding.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 6)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:11:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 660
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u4k7[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4ujjg[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:14:26 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 08:18:01 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:
>[soc.history removed from distribution – Mr. Giwer has no
>interest in history.]
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>I think we should call Giwer the “cowardly Lyin”.
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/giwerdly-lion.html
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>URL https://nizkor.org/encouragements/
>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s special
>newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
>ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
>redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
>an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>–
>Nizkor Canada | https://nizkor.org
>———————–| Remember John Hron
> |————————————–
> https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
Mail all queries to [email protected]
GUIDELINES OF THE
GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL
JUNE 1996
The Government presented to the Knesset will act on the premise that
the right of the Jewish people to the Land
of Israel is eternal and indisputable, that the State of Israel is the
State of the Jewish people, whose democratic
government guarantees equality for all its citizens, and whose main
goal is the ingathering and integration of the
Jewish people.
The striving for national unity, social justice, and personal liberty,
and the search for genuine peace with all of
our neighbors while safeguarding national and personal security, shall
serve as the basis for the Government’s
policies.
The Government will work to achieve the following goals:
1.Achieving peace with all our neighbors, while safeguarding
national and personal security.
2.Reinforcing the status of Jerusalem as the eternal capital of the
Jewish people.
3.Increasing immigration to Israel, and integrating new immigrants
in all walks of life.
4.Creating conditions for a free, thriving economy and social
welfare.
5.Strengthening, broadening and developing settlement in Israel.
6.Promoting values of the State of Israel as a Jewish, democratic
state, while maintaining a proper balance
between the will of the majority and the rights of individual and
minorities.
7.Broadening education and strengthening the bond to Jewish heritage
and the realization of Zionism.
I. PEACE, SECURITY AND FOREIGN RELATIONS
1.The Government of Israel will work to broaden the circle of peace
with all of its neighbors, for the good of
Israel’s citizens and the region’s inhabitants, while safeguarding
Israel’s vital interests.
2.The Government will reinforce and develop its peaceful relations
with Egypt and Jordan.
3.The Government of Israel will conduct negotiations with Syria
without pre-conditions.
4.The Government will work to raise the level of relations with
other Arab countries which have connections
with Israel: Qatar, Oman, Morocco, Tunisia, Mauritania, and will
work towards mutual recognition and
cooperation with Arab countries with which Israel does not have
diplomatic relations.
5.The Government of Israel will use all means at its disposal to
bring home the prisoners of war and missing
in action and all those who worked for the security of the state,
and will insist on this point during
negotiations with all relevant parties.
6.The Government will negotiate with the Palestinian Authority, with
the intent of reaching a permanent
arrangement, on the condition that the Palestinians fulfill all
their commitments fully.
7.The Government of Israel will propose to the Palestinians an
arrangement whereby they will be able to
conduct their lives freely within the framework of
self-government. The Government will oppose the
establishment of a Palestinian state or any foreign sovereignty
west of the Jordan River, and will oppose
“the right of return” of Arab populations to any part of the Land
of Israel west of the Jordan River.
8.In any political arrangement, Israel shall insist on ensuring the
existence and security of Jewish
settlements and their affinity with the State of Israel. The
Government of Israel will continue to bear full
responsibility for the Jewish settlements and their residents.
9.The Government views the Golan Heights as essential to the
security of the state and its water resources.
Retaining Israeli sovereignty over the Golan will be the basis for
an arrangement with Syria.
10.The State of Israel will keep strengthening the Israel Defense
Forces and other security forces to deter
potential enemies, prevent war and defend the state and its
citizens.
11.The Government will exercise its right to use the IDF and security
forces to act against the threat of
terrorism everywhere, to ensure the well being of the country’s
residents and the Jewish people.
12.The Government will act to remove the threat to the northern
border and will ensure economic
development to residents in the north.
13.The Government’s privatization policy will take into account the
essential nature of the defense industries
to the country’s security.
14.The Government will promote Israel’s foreign relations to enhance
its security and peace, and to further
the goal of economic and cultural growth.
15.The Government will nurture its special, close relationship with
the United States, on the basis of the
commitment of both to the values of liberty, justice, democracy,
and the commonality of their interests.
16.The Government will act to strengthen relations with Russia and
other CIS states, bearing in mind
Russia’s status in the international community and the interests
shared by Israel and these countries.
17.The Government of Israel will continue efforts to have Israel
added as an associate member of the
European Union, and will act to strengthen its ties with Europe.
18.The Government will strengthen its relations in all spheres with
countries in East Asia, especially
economic ties with the fast- developing market in the region.
19.The Government will strive to develop relations with all countries
desiring peace and will increase Israel’s
involvement in international organizations.
20.The Government will initiate and cooperate in international
efforts against terrorist organizations and
those countries which shelter and aid such organizations.
21.The Government will act with determination against any
manifestation of anti-semitism throughout the
world, and will work to enhance the ties and mutual responsibility
between Israel and Jewish communities
in the Diaspora.
II. JERUSALEM
1.Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, is one city, whole and
undivided, and will remain forever under Israel’s
sovereignty.
2.Freedom of worship and access to the holy places will be
guaranteed to members of all faiths.
3.The Government will thwart any attempt to undermine the unity of
Jerusalem, and will prevent any action
which is counter to Israel’s exclusive sovereignty over the city.
4.The Government of Israel, through its ministries and through the
Jerusalem Municipality, will allocate
special resources to speed up building, improve municipal services
for Jewish, Arab and other residents,
and to reinforce the social and economic status of the greater
Jerusalem area.
III. RELIGION AND STATE
1.The Government will act to bring the religious and secular closer
through mutual understanding and
respect. The Government will retain the status quo on religious
matters. Whenever it becomes clear that
the status quo was violated, the Government will look into steps
to undo the change, including introducing
legislation.
2.The Law of Conversion shall be changed so that conversions to
Judaism in Israel will be recognized only
if approved by the Chief Rabbinate.
3.The Government will initiate research of the history of the Land
of Israel and the Jewish People, including
archeological excavation, while preserving the dignity of the
dead.
4.The Government will make prayer arrangements for Jews at holy
sites in accordance to the guidelines of
religious law.
IV. IMMIGRATION AND ABSORPTION
1.Recognizing the shared fate and the joint struggle for the
existence of the Jewish people, and to achieve
the main goal of the State of Israel — the ingathering of the
Jewish people in its homeland — the
Government will act with determination to increase immigration
>from all countries, rescue persecuted
Jews, and create social and economic conditions for a speedy and
successful integration of immigrants.
2.The Government will put immigration and absorption at the top of
its priorities in the belief that effective
action on its part will turn Israel into a center which will draw
immigrants from prosperous and deprived
countries alike. The Government will initiate a strategic,
long-term program to tap the immigration
potential from various countries, estimated at one million
immigrants in the coming decade.
3.The Government will work to bridge the gaps between new immigrants
and veteran residents, and will
create conditions to facilitate their smooth and successful
integration into Israeli society. The Government
will work through information, education and law enforcement to
prevent calumny and slander against
immigrant groups or individuals on the basis of their origin, and
will deal with manifestations of
discrimination or mistreatment of immigrants by the government
bureaucracy.
4.The Government will introduce legislation to ensure the rights of
immigrants.
5.The Government will work to bring to Israel Ethiopians who wish to
immigrate and are eligible under law
or government decisions.
V. ECONOMICS AND SOCIAL POLICIES
Va. Economics
1.To stem the continuous dangerous growth in the State budget
deficit, the Government will take steps to
decrease the deficit; not by raising taxes, but by cutting
expenditures, and strict budgetary policies. To
increase revenues, the Government will significantly expand
privatization, including the sale of land, while
reducing the Government’s involvement in the economy.
2.The Government will act to establish conditions which will provide
economic stability, durable growth, the
reduction of inflation, and continued structural reforms.
3.The Government will halt the current policies which have created
dangerous deficits in the balance of
trade and the balance of payments, and will take all necessary
steps to reduce them.
4.Israel’s economy is small, and dependent on foreign trade. Its
successful development is conditioned on
specialization in sectors in which it has a relative advantage,
and which allows it to produce and export
high quality products and services at a competitive price. This
requires exposure to world markets and
the cancellation of limitations and tariffs, in order to
strengthen the economy’s ability to compete.
5.The Government will strengthen exposure and liberalization
policies in the capital and financial markets,
as well as in the labor market.
6.The Government will fight inflation by reducing government
expenditures, decreasing the state budget,
establishing conditions for increasing productivity, and through
appropriate monetary policies.
7.The Government will implement privatization policies and will
transfer its control in business enterprises —
including statutory authorities and the banks — to the public and
to the private sector.
8.The Government will encourage competition in the economy with the
goal of allowing consumers to
purchase a variety of products and services at competitive prices
set by the free market rather than as a
result of intervention by government or political party
apparatuses.
9.To increase the economic growth, the Government will act to create
conditions for the development of
small and medium sized enterprises.
10.The Government will do its utmost to restore faith in the capital
market, and will encourage increased
savings.
11.The Government will strengthen government structures and reduce
the bureaucracy.
Vb. Social Welfare
1.Development of the economy and growth will facilitate the
construction of a strong society, a fair
distribution of the tax burden, the creation of new jobs, and an
increase in aid to the disadvantaged. The
government will act vigorously to reduce poverty through
education, employment, and social renewal.
2.The Government will work to create social justice and equal
opportunity for all, while recognizing that every
person has the right to dignity and quality of life. The
Government will strive to create a strong society in
Israel, by maintaining balance encouraging private enterprise and
government involvement.
3.The Government will — as its first priority — put in place a
comprehensive program to solve the housing
problems of young couples and large families, to allow them to
purchase apartments at reasonable
prices. The Government will also work to build rental apartments
for young couples and large families in
accordance with criteria set by the government.
4.The Government will examine the disposition of Israel’s health
services and the way in which the National
Health Insurance Law has been implemented, as well as its
implications. The Government will — through
legislation — initiate changes and additions in order to improve
health services in Israel.
5.The Government of Israel will significantly promote social welfare
and quality of life in development towns
and increase efforts to rehabilitate distressed neighborhoods.
6.The Government will improve the welfare of the individual, strive
for full employment, and ensure basic
living conditions for all citizens.
7.The Government recognizes that priority should be given to senior
citizens and recognizes its obligation
to improve the quality of life for senior citizens in need in the
areas of housing, nursing care, and the
granting of benefits and relief in accordance to criteria to be
determined.
8.The Government will work to establish pension insurance on a
stable actuarial base which will facilitate
pension payments at the level required to maintain a suitable
standard of living.
9.The Government will implement assistance programs for the
handicapped with the goal of giving them
suitable living conditions for their rehabilitation and
integration into society.
10.The Government will act to aid discharged soldiers in the spheres
of higher education, employment and
housing.
11.The Government will wage an uncompromising war against the plague
of drugs as a national mission of
the utmost importance and will allocate the resources necessary to
this end.
Vc. The Fight Against Traffic Accidents
The human, social and economic damage of traffic accidents in Israel
is relatively much greater than in other
developed countries. Contributing to this are the human component,
deficient infrastructures, the absence of
complementary inter-urban and urban mass transit, deficient
legislation, and partial enforcement of existing
laws. The Government will devote special attention to this issue, and
will budget all the resources required to
decrease the number of accidents.
Vd. Infrastructures
1.The Government will initiate publicly and privately funded
projects for investment in physical and human
infrastructures in the spheres of transportation, energy and
communications, education and research and
development, with the aim of creating in Israel the environment
necessary for the Israeli economy to join
those of the developed countries of the world.
2.The Government will act for the gradual construction of an
advanced, wide-band infrastructure between a
number of focal points across the country, and will initiate a
unification of computer communications
networks, currently operated by commercial firms, universities and
public bodies, into one network. The
national computer communications carrier will be connected to
international sites on extensive and fast
communications lines.
3.The Government will develop government databases and encourage the
establishment of private
databases, which together will constitute a national information
infrastructure, open to public use through
computers.
Ve. The Environment
1.The Government of Israel will raise environmental issues to the
top of the national agenda, and act to
enhance public consciousness regarding the preservation of the
environment as an integral part of the
struggle to preserve the country and out of a desire to build in
it a healthy and prosperous society of
values.
2.The Government of Israel will give priority to preserving the
country’s natural resources: its water, air, soil,
flora and fauna. The Government will initiate basic environmental
legislation, in place of and in addition to
current regulations.
3.The Government will give high priority to waste recycling projects
and to the establishment of wastewater
purification plants.
4.Government ministries will operate with strict adherence to a
policy of preserving green areas as much as
possible.
VI. SETTLEMENT
1.Settlement in the Negev, the Galilee, the Golan Heights, the
Jordan Valley, and in Judea, Samaria and
Gaza is of national importance, to Israel’s defense and an
expression of of Zionist fulfillment. The
Government will alter the settlement policy, act to consolidate
and develop the settlement enterprise in
these areas, and allocate the resources necessary for this.
2.The Government of Israel will safeguard its vital water supplies,
>from water sources on the Golan Heights
and in Judea and Samaria.
3.The Government of Israel will examine the difficulties facing
private farms, moshavim and kibbutzim, and
propose recovery plans that will allow them to exist as
independent economic entities under free market
conditions.
4.The Government will uncompromisingly combat all attempts to impair
the rights of all residents to exercise
their full civil and economic rights, without forced mediation by
— or dependence on — any union,
movement, organization or party.
VII. Status of Women
1.The Government will create the conditions for the full and equal
integration of Israeli women into all areas
of life, and will also work to ensure equal opportunities for both
genders, in areas of employment and
salary. The Government will strive to improve the status of women,
and to eradicate all forms of
discrimination.
2.The Government will increase aid to single-parent families in
need.
3.The Government of Israel will act to achieve genuine
representation for women in all decision-making
centers in the country.
4.The Government will treat, with special gravity, all forms of
violence against women and fight to uproot it. It
will act to deepen public awareness of the severity of the
problem, and allocate resources to education,
information and deterrent activities.
5.The Government will assist women who have been harmed by violence,
with the goal of restoring their
physical and mental health, reviving their honor, and returning
them to full functioning free from threats and
fear of violence.
VIII. Quality of Government
1.The Government will act in accordance with the fundamental
principles of democratic rule, and respect the
status and decisions of the bodies supervising it: the Knesset,
the courts, the State Comptroller, and the
Attorney-General.
2.The Government will preserve freedom of expression. It recognizes
the importance of a fair and balanced
media as part of the democratic system.
3.The Government will uphold the law, act with integrity,
demonstrate responsible management, and
maintain strict efficiency and frugality. The allocation of
resources, subsidies and grants from the State
Treasury and holdings will be effected in accordance with
reasonable and equal criteria, and will be
accompanied by supervision over the activities of beneficiaries
according to their commitments and the
purposes of the allocation.
4.The Government views its agencies and employees as servants of
citizens of the State, with a profound
commitment to civil rights, including the right to information and
to fair, efficient and polite service. The
Government will cultivate these principles among its employees.
5.The Government will promote voluntarism and civilian involvement
in governance, and will instill the values
of democracy and good citizenship in the young generation through
the education systems.
IX. Minorities
1.The Government will act toward the full integration of minorities
in Israel into every area. Special efforts will
be made for the advancement of minorities who have joined their
fate with that of the Jewish people and
the State of Israel, and who have served in the security forces.
2.The Government will act to enlarge the budgets of local Arab
authorities which require improved basic
infrastructures, in an effort to reduce gaps between them and
other communities.
3.Efforts will be made to absorb minority academics, particularly
those who have completed military duties
in the service of the State, in public institutions, in order to
continue their participation in public and official
responsibility for the State they served in the security services.
X. EDUCATION
1.The Government views education as a central factor in shaping the
character of the young generation in
Israel. It offers momentum for closing gaps and for preventing
polarization within society. Education will be
grounded in the eternal values of the Jewish tradition, Zionist
and Jewish consciousness, and universal
values.
2.The Book of Books, the Bible, the Hebrew language, and the history
of the Jewish people are the
foundation stones of our national identity, and will take their
rightful place in the education of the young
generation.
3.The education establishment will put an emphasis on offering a
general education that will prepare the
young generation for the technological world, and give them the
tools for humanistic, democratic judgment
regarding the society in which they live.
4.An extended school day will be gradually implemented in elementary
and secondary schools, and priority
will be given to schools in development towns and neighborhoods.
5.The Government will strengthen the youth movements and promote
youth participation in such
movements, in an effort to strengthen their connection to the
country and the State.
6.The Government will create the conditions for cultural and
artistic development, within which artists will be
able to find expression regardless of their political views.
7.The Government will foster the status of the teacher in Israeli
society.
8.The Government will act to promote original Israeli creations in
the areas of culture and art.
9.The Government will promote physical education as an important
factor in forming the personalities of the
young generation.
10.The Government will promote competitive sport as a motivating
factor in the active involvement of youths
and adults in the various sports, ensuring appropriate economic
conditions to enable outstanding athletes
to register achievements in international arenas.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56635 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:09:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:12:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:29:43 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu
># It is a fact that nowhere the cremation take less than 1
># our 1/4 to 1 hour 1/2 for a normal body. Nowhere in the
># world to my knowledge.
>Excerpted from http://www.cremation.org:
> “A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based
>upon the retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between
>1,500 to 1,900 degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies
>depending upon the type of machine. Low capacity retorts
>take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation while high
>capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of
>cremations conducted during the day also affect the time.
>For example, in the retort we operate, the first cremation of
>the day takes about two hours and the second takes about an hour.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Now bear in mind that this is current, commercial cremation,
>where great care is taken. In Auschwitz it was a different story.
>Re the Topf patent, I won’t bother responding to your claims.
>As you people get more and more desperate, you start using
>arguments which are simply not worth replying to. One has
>to put the limit somewhere.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
A little factor of 16 to 1 never did bother a holohugger. The world
would be wise to use the Topf design to reduce cremation times by a
factor of 16.
It is strange that today’s best is so much worse than that designed to
work under Nazi physics.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:24:44 PDT 1996
Article: 56643 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:57:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:59:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 05:45:06 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> > Your response was a death threat.
>
>> Only to an ignorant idiot. Think about it.
>>
> You are a gutless liar. You made the threat bucko. No one who
>reads English thinks otherwise.
How do I make threats regarding the address of my daughter when I have
no daughter?
Please be specific in your response.
>> It was not. There is a very simple explanation as to why it was not.
> Wrong. There is not simpl,e explanation that is not a lie.
I have no daughter. How simple do I have to make it for an attonrey?
> The point is a simple one. Your words were a threat of violence.
>Lie or wiggle anyway you want.
> It has already been reported to your ISP.
What have you reported? That I have no daugher?
You are truly an idiot. Just like all your fellow holohuggers.
Dumber than dogshit.
You can stop asking Alec. This is what he was supposed to have
remembered.
You folks are fucking stupid.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 17:58:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56664 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:42:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 185
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:44:53 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:55:51 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>posted and emailed
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>I suggest looking at the image files of the Topf
>>>patent submitted shortly after the war. Topf,
>>>remember, is the firm that built the Auschwitz-
>>>Birkenau furnaces.
>>
>>>This is for someone interested in the facts, not
>>>in “revisionist conjectures”.
>>
>>>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/topf-und-soehne/images
>>
>>>tp4907-lrg-1b.gif (ref)
>>>tp4907-lrg-2.gif (ref)
>>>tp4907-lrg-3.gif (ref)
>>
>>
>> The main things that can affect the cremation time are:
>>
>> 1) the temperature
>> 2) the air intake (capacity)
>> 3) the volume to cremate
>>
>> It’s interesting here to follow the evolution of the anti-revisionnist
>>arguments in this newsgroup. First, it was claimed before I came here in
>>November and for few months after that the real cremation time in a modern
>>oven was less than an hour. The coffin was supposed to be the main impedment
>>to a quick cremation. Now that this nonsense was drop (apparently), and the
>>majority in front seems to accept a figure of 1 hour 1/2 to 2 hours in an
>>oven. However, we are told that there’s a difference between a civilian and
>>a ‘military’ crematorium.
>No, that is not the bone of contention at all. The bone of contention
>is that the care taken in modern methods was NOT used in the
>extermination camps. All comparisons between modern methods and those
>used in the extermination camps is a red herring, a distortion meant
>to decieve. I think you know this.
Of course we all agree, now that Keren has sworn to it, that modern
methods are 16 times slower than the method that used Nazi physics.
>> In Auschwitz-Birkenau, the temperature of operation,
>>as several know here, was about 800 degrees while it is at least 500 degrees
>>more today.
>To account for the coffin? To account for the end result expected by
>the temperature. (This is something the extermination camp methods do
>not give a hang about.)
They would object to the extra fuel?
>> The ex-crematory specialist of this newsgroup used often the air
>>intake at Birkenau, but as I said sevral months ago, the air intake for
>>the average crematory in Quebec (2 hours 1/2 for a cremation) is about 25%
>>less than what was existing in Birkenau. Not so big, if we account for the
>>temperature difference.
>>
>Apples and oranges.
>> Nizkor claim in its QAR 42 that several emaciated bodies could be burn
>> more quickly.
>To quote sections of QAR 42:
>”For example, Legacewould never even consider mixing or ‘comingling’
>the ashes of one deceased person with those of another. Legace and the
But the chose to build exactly the type of burning facilities that
would premit ashes to be separated. Very strange of them.
>IHR [and Jean-Francois Beaulieu] forget that two or three emaciated
>corpses could be inserted into each “muffle.” This would, of course,
>never be done in a civilian, commercial establishment.
Since when were they emacated?
> Also, the Auschwitz furnaces were designed to run continuously,
>using the heat generated by the burning of previous bodies to keep the
>oven hot for the next bodies. . . .”
If that is the case then the patent references are worthless as that
is a different design. But it would be interesting to read something
about these unique design features rather than what Nizkor makes up as
it goes along.
>For the complete QAR see https://nizkor.org/features/qar/qar42.html
>There is nothing in the QAR that suggests several emaciated bodies
>could burn more quickly as Jean-Francois Beaulieu suggests. This is a
>distortion of the text. See the URL above.
Just what is it suggesting?
>> It is true that an emaciated body take less time
>And thus more could fit into a single muffle.
But the total weight is what matters.
>>, the problem,
>> as they know, is that 90% of the victims in the Holocaust story are Jews
>Emaciated Jews.
Buzzer there. If they had spent time in the camp, they were
registered as was the cause of death. Using only those, there is no
need to invoke gassing.
To need gassing one has to first hypothsize people being shipped in
and going directly to gas chambers without registration leaving no
time for emacation.
Beyond that, a bit less than half Jews.
>> who were allegedly gased upon arrival, people who were not emaciated.
>And your source for their health is?
I thought you were following the conference.
>> Finally they used an argument which was brought by M.P. Stein, the fact
>> that if you don’t cremate totally a body, than it take less time.
>Of course it doesn’t. Just throw another body over the incomplete
>prior burning. There was nothing to say they couldn’t and so they did.
>> There’s
>> many problem with this argument. This claim is right, but…
>> Why no post war testimony talk about it? Why do we have stories for which
>> the ashes were spread almost everywhere, in a river, etc.
>Because they are not stories and, as an added plus, they come from SS
>and survivors. Imagine that! I’ll search the library for details if
>you wish.
>> Those stories
>> never mentionned this caracteristic.
>What characteristic?
>> In such a case, bones would be harder
>> to crunch.
>Why? Just burn ’em again.
The contrary is reported. But you know that. Or do you pick and
choose your testimony?
>> Less you cremate, les the bones are friables. I don’t know any
>> story neither by the survivors about the use of an acid to remove the car-
>> bonized flesh. Since Nizkor reduce the cremation time from 2 hours to
>> 30 to 45 minutes,
>Actually it wasn’t Nizkor, Jean-Francois Beaulieu, it was the German’s
>themselves and the historical record. Try dealing with the salient
>facts and not with groups who present salient facts.
It was the magical control of the Nazis over physical reality that
actually did it.
>> we could expect a lot of human remains.
>Where?
A good question.
>> The construction
>> of crematorias, an expensive operation, has a specific purpose: reducing
>> completelly the body,
>Who says it didn’t eventually? You?
Your witnesses of course.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 21:47:11 PDT 1996
Article: 56685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:41:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:43:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 11:37:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>
>> False; the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in
>> 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them.
>According to Matt, there was no ventilation system in the Kremas, so how
>could they test them in 1945?
You really can not read what I have said, can you? I referred only to
the lack of evidence for any fan of any kind and the lack of any
foundation for one.
>Also, that would be *FORENSIC TESTING*. There is no forensic evidence,
>remember?
>Now you know why I said that Matt is the best ally possible!
What you are missing is that Keren is making it up as he goes along
and you are falling for it. Why do you not ask him for the URL?
Obviously you do not question what you want to believe.
>> Why do you lie so much?
>Because inventing evidence is easier than going to the library and
>looking it up!
>I told you! Matt is a troll!
Keren just made it up. That must make him a troll.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 21:47:13 PDT 1996
Article: 56713 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:30:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj$1n[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:32:46 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:48:43 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>## No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It’s
>>>>## on the web.
>>>>
>>>># “Look it up. It’s on the web” Mr.Keren says. Does he offer exact
>>>># locations? No.
>>>>
>>>>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images
>>>>
>>>>Files peters-rasch-135.jpg (bottom) and peters-rasch-136.jpg
>>>>(section 2. of that page).
>>
>>> Okay there it is. Anyone who can read German and won’t mind
>>>having to scroll the light gray 24 point type sideways, go for it.
>>>It would have been a lot easier for everyone involved, including the
>>>Internet resources if Mr.Keren just posted it here, but for some
>>>reason he never does, preferring to direct people to Nizkor files.
>>
>> But this way it lets them brag about the number of hits without having
>>to reveal what generates them.
>>
>Actually, Giwer, it’s so the idiotic deniers can see the real thing.
>It takes time and volunteers to type this stuff up. There is a great
>amount of material to deal with.
Volunteers? It would be better to pay them so they would evaluate
what they put on it. But it is a great source of material, as I said.
>> It gives the impression to their “contributors” that
>No, they are contributors without te quotes.
And of course, copyright be damned. I do find it interesting that so
many people work together to violate so many copyrights.
>> they are getting
>>the word out when in fact so many of the hits are from people digging
>>up material that works against the claims made here.
>>
>Such as?
>> And if it is like the Degesh Publication that this same person refused
>>to post for so long, the reason is that that translation goes more
>>against he chosen beliefs than favors them.
>>
>How so?
>> It is interesting that “I” may have caused the error.
>>
>You put yourself in quotes? LOL! You mean you don’t really exist?
>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 21:47:13 PDT 1996
Article: 56717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:43:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:46:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Since the chimneys are back in the news, here they are in all of their
irregular, huge, shadowless glory from the aerial view.
From [email protected] Sun Aug 11 21:47:14 PDT 1996
Article: 56719 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:39:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:41:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 15:43:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have posted three distinctly different “eyewitness” reports of
>> gassing that do not describe HCN gassing, none of which anyone,
>> inluding you, has addressed.
>>
>> Just what do you think you are talking about?
>We’ve worn this one out, Matt.
>You seem to be deliberately refusing to understand the problems with
>eyewitness testimony and what is needed to assure accurate analysis. You
>are deliberately looking for the few instances where the testimony was
>gathered and discarded as useless and, in your usual fashion are
>insisting that all of the testimony has equal weight.
>Under those rules, we can discard the Dresdenhoax – because some people
>reported nonsense.
>As I said, you lost this one.
>To see how, I’d suggest a reread of the thread – all the way thru.
As for deliberate actions, you are refusing to acknowledge that this
“testimony” is the only thing the gassing has to go on as there is no
physical evidence of gassing.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:10 PDT 1996
Article: 56743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:49:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 10:52:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2520 alt.revisionism:56743 alt.conspiracy:77122 alt.politics.white-power:39077 soc.culture.jewish:67632 talk.politics.guns:297693 talk.politics.libertarian:110857 talk.abortion:181165 alt.christnet:90879
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:04:52 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:43:32 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
>>wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 00:59:30 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>>>On 5 Aug 1996 08:52:14 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
>>>>>>Schultz) wrote:
>>>>>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>>>>>: >Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet–a medical miracle!)
>>>>>>>: >because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?
>>>>>>>: >Sensitive chap. Why do I think you’re lying, Matt?
>>>>>>>: Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to
>>>>>>>: take a look at it. Is that clear enough?
>>>>>>>Actually, it’s recently been discovered that ulcers are caused by an
>>>>>>>interesting species of bacterium that lives in the stomach lining (and
>>>>>>>can stand the highly acidic conditions by dumping ammonia as a waste
>>>>>>>product). More precisely, as I recall, the ulcers are caused when the
>>>>>>>body’s white blood cells try to go after these bacteria and fail. I
>>>>>>>remember reading an article about the guy who proved it by ingesting some
>>>>>>>of the bacteria himself, developing an ulcer, and then making the ulcer
>>>>>>>go away by taking the appropriate antibiotic.
>>>>>>>In any case, developing an ulcer in two weeks isn’t out of the question.
>>>>>>>What I want to know is, who used the secret ZOG “send bacteria over the
>>>>>>>phone” weapon without clearance from the higher echelons?
>>>>>>>—–
>>>>>>>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>>>>>>>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>>>>>>>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>>>>>>>—–
>>>>>>>”I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards
>>>>>>>with very high IQs.”
>>>>>>> –J. Bronowski
>>>>>> I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this.
>>>>>Hey Matt. Screw you and your father.
>>>>>Andrew Mathis
>>>>>————————————-
>>>>>”Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
>>>>>”Be wary of the authorities…”
>>>>> Rabban Gamliel
>>>>> Pirkei Avot 2:3
>>>> Are you merely ignorant or are you jewish too?
>>>Matthew, if you’re ever fool enough to try and sue me, I assure you I
>>>intend to countersue you, not just with any old suit, but with a
>>>class-action suit, with members of s.c.j., who will testify that you
>>>have repeatedly invaded this forum for Jewish people with a bug up
>>>your ass, denying the Holocaust to those who witnessed it, and, um,
>>>HARASSED people in general.
>>>I suggest you keep your idiot mouth shut…you’re in deep enough
>>>already with the feds if my info is right.
>> Your info is shit as is your claim that a conference on revisionism is
>>for Jewish people, that there is anyone here who witnessed the
>>holocaust, or that I have done anything so far but question gassing.
>>I would suggest you learn to think before you post.
>My info is proving stronger every day; as for your ability to read for
>comprehension, it’s obviously low–I clearly stated that your entrance
>into s.c.j. was tantamount to harrassment, not your circle-jerking in
>alt.revisionism. As for witnesses to the Holocaust, I know of at
>least one, but I won’t name him. And one, it seems to me, is enough
>for a harrassment case.l
Freedom of speech is now harrassment? You must be a Canadian and if
not you would be happier there, until you are on the losing side of
the law.
>> I would suggest you learn to think in general as well as this
>>particular.
>I would suggest you go f**k yourself.
That is spelled FUCK. The * is not a letter in English, fool.
>————————————-
“Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
“Be wary of the authorities… on hologgery as they are intent upon
deceiving you.”
Rabban Gamliel
Pirkei Avot 2:3
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:11 PDT 1996
Article: 56744 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.midplains.net!news.mhtc.net!aonline!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: whois from nic.ddn.mil (KM214)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:43:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 9:45:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:12 PDT 1996
Article: 56749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:17:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4ub[email protected]> <4ue[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:19:26 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 13:25:13 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On 8 Aug 1996 22:10:47 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>> I think the word of an engineer who designs an oven trumps the opinion
>>>of a mere user of an oven.
>>
>> You must still be an undergrad.
>>
>> That a designer can ever know more than the user of the design is an
>>absurdity of the first magnitude.
> Everyone who uses a TV set knows all about antenna design, cathode ray
>tubes, frequencies, transistors, etc. Is that the claim you are indeed
>making?
No.
>> Your statement is laughable, an academic absurdity, and not uncommon.
>>
>>
>> The engineer tells his wife how great is it going to be when she gets
>>it. The wife knows what she got. The wife is wrong in your opinion.
> Not at all the same as describing what is feasible _in general_, which
>is the subject under discussion. But I suppose this sort of dishonesty is
>only to be expected from a liar such as yourself.
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:13 PDT 1996
Article: 56758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:48:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 9:51:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2524 alt.revisionism:56758 alt.conspiracy:77150 alt.politics.white-power:39084 soc.culture.jewish:67645 talk.politics.guns:297735 talk.politics.libertarian:110887 talk.abortion:181175 alt.christnet:90905
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:00:03 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <4ul[email protected]>, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>> Um, not to complicate things, but the harassment of Giwer *pere* was
>> imagined and not real.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>Of course, Andrew. Giwer’s father was not harassed. He was merely called
>upon to answer a telephone.
>
>I did not mean to leave any other impression.
>
>I am only amazed and stunned that Giwer would be upset that someone did
>not post the phone number of their GRANDMOTHER.
>
>I’m sorry if I gave the impression that Giwer’s father was harassed. I
>used the word to try and “speak Giwerese,” but I guess I’m not as fluent
>in it as I might be.
It is truly instructive to watch the creation of a reality go on as I
watch.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:14 PDT 1996
Article: 56759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:49:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 9:51:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2525 alt.revisionism:56759 alt.conspiracy:77151 alt.politics.white-power:39085 soc.culture.jewish:67646 talk.politics.guns:297736 talk.politics.libertarian:110888 talk.abortion:181176 alt.christnet:90906
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:34:04 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>>In article <4ul[email protected]>, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>>> Um, not to complicate things, but the harassment of Giwer *pere* was
>>> imagined and not real.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>Of course, Andrew. Giwer’s father was not harassed. He was merely called
>>upon to answer a telephone.
>>
>>I did not mean to leave any other impression.
>>
>>I am only amazed and stunned that Giwer would be upset that someone did
>>not post the phone number of their GRANDMOTHER.
>>
>>I’m sorry if I gave the impression that Giwer’s father was harassed. I
>>used the word to try and “speak Giwerese,” but I guess I’m not as fluent
>>in it as I might be.
>>
>Well, Giwerese is by and large an artificial language.
>Pimping my grandma on the internet later this month…
>Andrew
>————————————-
>”Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
>”Be wary of the authorities…”
> Rabban Gamliel
> Pirkei Avot 2:3
But it was in fact her original position that it appeared to be
harrassment.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:15 PDT 1996
Article: 56762 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:43:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 10:45:50 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2526 alt.revisionism:56762 alt.conspiracy:77160 alt.politics.white-power:39087 soc.culture.jewish:67647 talk.politics.guns:297755 talk.politics.libertarian:110898 talk.abortion:181177 alt.christnet:90910
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:09:10 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:08:07 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>>>> Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government,
>>>> else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp….There
>>>> are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone
>>>> think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?….So
>>>> we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish???
>>>What a fascinating thought!
>>>
>>>Okay, please respond to this:
>>>
>>>I had relatives who were babies when they were murdered by the Nazis.
>>>
>>>What crime do you think they committed?
>> Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics having
>>been done on the bodies, that sort of thing.
>Having noted yourself, asshole, that the bodies were cremated, how
>could a forensics been done?
>You are SUCH an asshole.
So you agree there is no physical evidence of gassing. Very good. At
least you are honest.
You are the first holohugger to admit the obvious.
Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of gassing is
happening. 70% say yes.
Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by the
government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
Tell me the difference when you find the time.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:16 PDT 1996
Article: 56767 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:02:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:04:45 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2527 alt.revisionism:56767 alt.conspiracy:77171 alt.politics.white-power:39092 soc.culture.jewish:67650 talk.politics.guns:297766 talk.politics.libertarian:110906 talk.abortion:181179 alt.christnet:90916
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:52:19 +0000, Chuck Ferree
wrote:
>You say you know one witness to the Holocaust…here’s another, and I
>can and have come up with many….eye-witnesses, victims,
>Germans-Austrian participants. Some deniers discount eye-witness
>testimony, but someone please tell me where to get better evidence,
>except by confessions by war criminals, and we also have plenty of
>that.
>Giwer knows the Nazis gassed people at Auschwitz, Dachau, Mauthausen,
>and other Nazi camps.
Wiesenthal agrees with me that there were no gassings except in
Poland. What is your point?
He just likes to argue, especially with Phd.
>Chemists, who continously kick his skinny little ass,
But as you are completely ignorant of any science, including chemisty,
you have no way of judging the matter.
Therefore your post is a deliberate misrepresentation.
but he still
>expects some of the dead to come back and say; “yeah they gassed me,
>and my Mom, and my Dad and all my aunts and uncles, my little sister,
>and all my brothers, also my neighbors.
>If that happened, Giwer would say something like, yeah but what color
>was the gas, and how long did it take to kill you people?
Chuckles,
The frightening thing is that you were one trusted with a loaded
fighter.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:17 PDT 1996
Article: 56768 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:04:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:07:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2528 alt.revisionism:56768 alt.conspiracy:77172 alt.politics.white-power:39093 soc.culture.jewish:67651
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:47:05 GMT, [email protected] (Matthew
Ackerman) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer
>>
>>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote:
>>>> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level
>>>> of “proof” for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire,
>>>> it may be a bit too subtle.
>>> As satire it’s right on. For the deniers though, the problem is that
>>> they’re a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth.
>> You too appear to miss the point. No one cares in the least if
>>someone does not accept the Dresden story.
>> So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story?
>And the Jew next door was your REAL father. I have the proof…..
Are you saying that Jews are natural adulterers? That they seduce
their neighbors’ wives?
You obviously have a very low opinion of Jews.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 56769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:46:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 10:48:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2529 alt.revisionism:56769 alt.conspiracy:77173 alt.politics.white-power:39094 soc.culture.jewish:67652 talk.politics.guns:297768 talk.politics.libertarian:110908 talk.abortion:181180 alt.christnet:90917
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:09:55 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On 9 Aug 1996 10:58:04 GMT, [email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected](some
>>>bizzare guy on the internet) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Whoever says the holocaust doesn’t exist can talk to my grandmother.
>>>>She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50
>>>>people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials.
>>>>Fuck up.
>>>>
>>>> Robert Rothenbrew
>>>> http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/
>>>> I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed.<<
>>>Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government,
>>>else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp….There
>>>are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone
>>>think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?….So
>>>we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish???
>>>Every Jewish woman from that era claims rape by the Germans….I think
>>>Grany is just flattering herself by telling you that.
>> Granny reminds me a bit of the man who remembered being gassed six
>>times.
>I thought that was you when your flatulent father farted on you six
>times.
>————————————-
“Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
“Be wary of the authorities… on holohuggery. ”
Rabban Gamliel
Pirkei Avot 2:3
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:19 PDT 1996
Article: 56771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:07:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:09:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:17:24 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 09:28:09 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>> wrote:
>>
>> >We already settled that one, Matt.
>>
>> >I see no need to repeat an argument that you lost so easily.
>>
>> >As for trying to engage you in it – most certainly *NOT*!
>>
>> I agree it was settled. The descriptions provided do not in any
>> manner match cyanide poisoning — unless you are into gelatinous
>> mixtures of flesh and clothing that is.
>>
>Yet again you bring up a single erroneous description among thousands of
>accurate ones.
>Sorry, but trying to carp on that single error is just intellectual
>dishonesty.
>You lost the argument and simply repeat nonsense – as always.
You really do need to catch up on the conference material. That is
one of many I and others have posted. For example eyewitnesses have
conclusively proven that HCN and CO are on the same order of
lethality.
For example there is the rest of the gelatinous mass story which has
similar problems as well as the two other stories of the first gassing
including the words of Hoess himself where he describes witnessing it.
You really need to study up on what has been posted.
>> >> Any time you think you are ready.
>>
>> >Ready to rehash old material yet again?!? Hardly!
>>
>> Thank you for agreeing they were not describing cyanide poisoning. I
>> will be enjoy posting your agreement.
>I would suggest that such a misquote would be the same as lying and a
>challenge to disprove your contention yet again.
>Not a good idea, Matt.
It is a very good idea but the challenge in in public, not private,
not email. You claim to know what has been posted. Have at it.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:19 PDT 1996
Article: 56772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:58:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:00:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 18:58:47 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>You see Giwer – you stupid, lying slob – this is what
>we call research. Going and checking something, before
>shooting off your mouth and accusing others of lying.
>I take the chance to thank Mr. Van Alstine for
>posting the appropriate text; I am rather far from
>home and don’t have Pressac’s book here.
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) writes:
>
>### the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in
>### 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them.
>
>## It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up.
># I didn’t make it up. I am not a worthless liar like you.
>
> From: [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine)
>Document 54; _Technique_, p.233.
>The caption to the photo reads:
>”Rear view of one of the 145 galvenized plates, perforated by
>hand, which were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air
>ducts in the upper part of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II
>and III, now kept in PMO <
>analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic
>Institute (7 Copernicus Street) on 4 complete plates and 2
>damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Kremtorium
>II. After scraping the white substance that covered these
>objects back to the metal, 7.2 grammes of scrapings were
>collected and subjected to two qualitative analyses, which
>established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report,
>signed by Dr. Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December
>1945 and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn.”
>
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
I certainly hope you have taken the time to read my response to this.
It is completely worthless for several reasons. It is of less value
than the more recent “study” in that it is clearly one data point and
qualifative.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:20 PDT 1996
Article: 56779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Adopt a Holocaust Denier Pledge Program
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:56:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:58:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56779 soc.history:7693 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2530 soc.culture.jewish:67660
On 11 Aug 1996 13:11:34 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>[another shirthugger wrote]
>>>If he does call me a fatbroad do I get a T-Shirt ?
>>You want a “FATBROAD” T-Shirt? Hmmmm. 🙂
>Wait just a darned MINUTE, here, bub! This FATBROAD T-shirt
>stuff is getting WAAY out of hand.
>The FFR (First Fatbroad Rule) clearly states that only female
>FATBROAD-DESIGNATES are eligible to receive the FTS.
>As you know, eligible FTS recipients are flown, all expenses
>paid, to Maui, where they enjoy the 45-day initiation
>ceremony. Mr. Gandi is not eligible.
>He may not have the trip.
>He may not have the FBC (Fatbroad Condo)
>He most CERTAINLY may not have the FBTS.
>A ZOG T-Shirt, perhaps…. all it takes is coin of the realm.
>FBTS? No way, Jose.
>I do, however, want to thank the donor who pledged $1.00 (US)
>for every “Fatbroad” or Fatbroad variant uttered by the Droll.
>His gesture reminded me that we have long spoken of initiating
>a Nizkor “Adopt a Denier” campaign, and I think it’s time we
>actually did it.
>Lurkers wishing to pledge a small amount to Nizkor, based upon
>denier postings, should contact me by email. I would suggest
>that some deniers are worth more than others… paying $5.00
>per Raven, for instance, is actually miserly compared to
>paying .05 per Giwer. (Pledging 10.00 per Friedrich Berg is a
>miserly cop-out.)
>As soon as time permits, I will prepare a standard ASCII
>announcement, which Nizkor will publish here and there on
>UseNet and the Web, explaining how to support our work by
>adopting a denier, and get a tax receipt for doing so.
>Here are some suggestions, based upon minimal research,
>as to reasonable pledges:
>———————————————————–
>Name Pledge Monthly
> per Post Projected Cost *
>———————————————————–
>Matt Giwer $ 0.05 $55.00
>Greg Raven $ 1.00 32.00
>Leslie Griswold $ 0.10 32.00
>Alex Baron $ 0.50 32.00
>Anton Huber $ 0.40 32.00
>”M Huber” $ 0.20 32.00
>E. Zundel $1000.00 0.00
>———————————————————–
This is a fantastic idea but from my point of view, I can raise ten
times that per message.
It is also good to see you are claiming you have finally recieved your
tax exampt status. You will post your number so it can be included on
the check for the donation will you not?
You mean you do not have it?
But then AG researched the law and found that only people with the tax
exempt status could receive such money. I really do hope you are
correct in this matter.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:21 PDT 1996
Article: 56782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:51:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 9:54:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2531 alt.revisionism:56782 alt.conspiracy:77179 alt.politics.white-power:39097
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:25:47 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>[newsgroups trimmed to those that have some relevance]
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:25:34 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> >”Holohuggers”? Give me evidence that the Holocaust didn’t exist!
>> >>
>> >> That is not the subject. The subject is mass extermination by
>> >> gassing. Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject
>> >> happened. You can make quite a name for yourself if you do.
>>
>> >That’s rather tough. The worms have eaten the bodies by now.
>>
>> Where have you been? They were all cremated and thus the remains were
>> preserved for all eternity or at least for a thousand years in their
>> size. But even with worms the bones would still be there. It is only
>> 50 years.
>Please explain the mechanism by which bone can survive forever in its unaltered
>natural state.
>(Note: if this was true, we’d be tripping over the bones of every animal that
>ever died in the last three hundred million years.)
As I said, it is only fifty years. I also said the thousands of tons
of bone fragments were not found in 1945. I made the point that no
one looked for them.
So where are you going with all of this?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:22 PDT 1996
Article: 56784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:40:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 10:42:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2533 alt.revisionism:56784
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:30:01 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and
># died in a reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time
># prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements.
>No, no, Giwer. That won’t do.
>1) Jager’s report explicitly mentions a huge number of
> Jewish women and children executed by his Einsatzkommando.
That is called a reprisal. The same thing was done in France.
>2) Himmler’s report to Hitler includes a breakdown of the
> different categories of victims. Partisans etc. are listed
> in a separate category. But 363,000 Jews are also listed
> as being executed, during the four months covered by the
> report.
Perhaps you could post that some day in your copious free time?
>3) Letter from Inspector of Armaments in the Ukraine to General of
> Infantry, Thomas, December 2 1941: clearly states that the
> Jews did not represent a danger to the German Army.
A danger to the Army is not the same as killing members of the army
which was the reason for reprisals. The civilians at Vicksburg were
not a danger to the Union Army under Sherman but they were killing its
members.
>You’re a very stupid, very evil, very sick person, Matt Giwer.
Evil? Then perhaps you should start wearing garlic around your neck.
And keep some silver bullets around just in case. But then you are
the superstitious type.
>I only pray that your children (if you have any) are better
>than you.
I do not have to pray, I know. His shooting skills simply are not as
good as mine as yet. It is just a matter of time. He is also slower
to anger than I, perhaps due to his weighing near 300 lbs and built
like Alley Oop. But then, it is the dark alley of your oop.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:23 PDT 1996
Article: 56786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:16:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 9:19:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 17:13:01 GMT, [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> Greg Raven
>writes:
>>
>>If you don’t agree that Leuchter has the expertise and competence to
>>evaluate claimed Nazi gas chambers, please supply the name of the
>person>you do find experienced and competent, along with the results of
>their>comprehensive and thorough examination of the alleged Nazi gas
>chambers.
>Hi, Greg, nice to see you posting here again. Are things getting slow at
>the IHR these days? I do wish you would come up with some original
>material, though. It’s a bit tedious to wade through the same old-same
>old once again.
>For instance, poor old Mr. Leuchter. Don’t you think he’s been through
>enough? He hardly helps your cause anymore. I much prefer the
>1945 toxicology study of the the Krakow Institute of
> Judiciary Expertise. You remeber? They studied of 6 zinc grids
> or “grills” which had been part of the L-Keller 1
> ventilation system found in the ruins of Crematoria 2 by
> the regional commission investigating German War crimes in
> Krakow. Two types of reagents were used on grid scraping
> to qualitatively check for cyanide. The first reagent
> produced a bluish coloration, indicating that Prussian Blue
> had been formed (a ferrocyanic compound). The second
> reagent produced an orange hue indicating that thiocynate
> had been created by the reaction. This combination
> indicated the presence of hydrocyanic compounds. That is
> to say, large quantities of cyanide must be present for the
> reaction to occur. Three of these grills are kept in the
> Auschwitz Museum reserve.
However, were this “large quantities” a valid assertion then they test
would have to have been quantitative but in fact it was qualitative
only. If there is some sort of threshold amount that causes the
reaction then there is clearly a “greater than x amount” that could be
cited.
However, as these simple reactions are not threshold reactions, we are
left with asking how blue was blue and how orange was orange.
> Compare this to Leuchter’s ‘scientific’ study, which, ironically enough,
>supports the Krakow report in spite of it’s many errors.
What is ironic about it. It has never been in question that he found
cyanide traces and in greater quantities than EITHER report. What is
interesting about the recent report is that they conducted it rather
than simply reissuing a copy of the first report. I will suggest a
reason below.
One
>monumental error on Leuchter’s part is, of course, his “control” sample.
>A control sample is typically research material which represents a
>’naormal’ condition. Fred Leuchter’s sample was taken from an INTACT
>de-lousing chamber #1 at Auschwitz II (Birkenau). Remarkably, this
>sample tested at 1050 mg/kg.
> Normal scientific method would suggest that a scientist would
>take more than one”control sample” and not chose control samples
>from areas that differ from the rest of the samples. He ignores,
>in the report, the fact that the delousing facility (his “control”
>sample) is intact and the gas chambers, because of their
>destruction, have been exposed for 43 years to the elements.
> Yet, because the test results of his “control” differed so
>greatly from the samples from the gas chambers, he concludes: “One
>would have expected higher cyanide detection in the samples taken
>from the alleged gas chambers (because of the greater amount of gas
>allegedly utilized there) than that found in the control sample.”
> Didn’t Fred know that 0.3 g/m^3 of HCN is enough to kill a human
>instantly while it takes 5 g/m^3 for 2 hours to kill lice? In other words,
>the control sample comes forma place where MORE HCN is known to be
>used — not LESS!
> Still the amazing thing is that ANY HCN was found at all after
>years of wind, rain and weather in the demolished Kremas! And, this
>evidence supports the Krakow institute findings perfectly! Obviously,
>Leuchter’s conclusions are not supported by his test results and, oddly
>enough, his test results actually prove that the structures which he
>examined were used as gas chambers.
This is below.
The problem with the first Kracow report is that it did not contain a
control sample. Thus the need for a second study. There is every
reason to assume, given the disease in the camps, that every building,
particularly a morgue, was fumigated heavily. (Keeping in mind that
it would work just as well on rats.)
The problem with the second Kracow report is that it’s control
sampling method is faulty in that they were taken from place where HCN
was used “once or never” and they found zero HCN in those samples. As
they did not distinguish between once and never the samples could have
all be from “never” places and thus finding no HCN traces in the
“never” place is a possibility.
To properly conduct the study they need to adopt a control sample
methodology that samples the barracks where it was known to have been
used many times. That will provide a proper control sample for a
substance that was in common use for years.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:24 PDT 1996
Article: 56792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!zdc-e!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer the Criminal
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:30:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:33:18 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 22:23:15 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
> I noted:
>> > You are a criminal.
>
>> You are an asshole.
> A good defense. Is that what you are going to tell netcom?
> You are a criminal.
Are you going to tell your provider, in light of your claim to be an
attorney and the absense of a conviction, that you are not committing
libel against me?
Or is there some reason you can say it but the news media can not?
The media does have to say the Timothy McVay is still the “alleged”
bomber.
Yes there is. You are below threshold of being sued.
As for netcom, they have spent so much time dealing with holohugger
mailbombs and forged email harrassment that I will be surprised if you
even get a response from them.
Now as to your provider …
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:24 PDT 1996
Article: 56809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:59:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <[email protected]> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 12:02:05 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:04:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># You really do need to catch up on the conference material.
>You really do need to seek medical help.
># That is one of many I and others have posted. For example
># eyewitnesses have conclusively proven that HCN and CO are
># on the same order of lethality.
>No. One witness said that death in the Treblinka gas
>chambers took 15 minutes. Most witnesses give a longer
>time.
Post them.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 56818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer’s Lies About My Articles (Re: A revisionist FA
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <320e06f7.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:23:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:39:30 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Of course we all agree, now that Keren has sworn to it,
># that modern methods are 16 times slower than the method that
># used Nazi physics.
>I haven’t. You’re a liar.
>One can accept when a blatant misquote like this happens
>once, or twice. With you, it’s a rule.
>The only conclusion: you’re lying intentionally. You’re a
>lying piece of scum.
My apologies. I was unaware that you agreed that the cremation time
for an average body is 1.5-2.0 hours as a minimum.
Now that you have agreed to that, how do you explain your agreement
with the four bodies every 20 minutes approach?
>Don’t ever believe what this person writes. He’s a pathological
>liar. When confronted with this fact, he doesn’t even try to
>defend himself, or deny it.
Considering you belive two contradictory things at the same time
regarding the time required to cremate I leave it to the lurkers to
judge for themselves.
The difference between me and the huggers is that, I could care less
if you post against me. If you post against the huggers you will be
called a neo-nazi at best and it is all downhill from there as to what
you will be called.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:26 PDT 1996
Article: 56819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: revision v. holohugging
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:25:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:27:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
A revionist will never call you a name for questioning what they post.
A holohugger will always call you a name for questioning what they
post.
Intolerance, thy name is holohugger.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:27 PDT 1996
Article: 56823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:04:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 12:06:50 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:33:58 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >Another effect that I did not mention was abrasion. Apatite, the fifth
>> >standard on Moh’s scale, is softer than quartz and orthoclase, both
>> >common constituents in sands and muds. This being the case, apatite would
>> >also be worn away faster than ordinary sediment.
>> It is good to see you are claiming it floats.
>>
>> Want to get back to fluid flow near the banks and bottom? No? I am
>> not surprised, fool.
>Alright, let’s do that. Please explain, if the water velocity near banks and
>bottoms is insufficient to move gravels and smaller sized-particles, how a river
>can change its course by erosion.
>Well, fool?
Yes, I know how that happens.
But let us first answer the question of the difference in fluid flow
rates at the boundaries and at the center. It was your claim that a
slow boundary flow meant a slow river flow. Let us first examine this
point in detail.
Else simply drop it as an admission you tried to deceive the lurkers
and give an opening to fellow holohuggers to promote their BS.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:27 PDT 1996
Article: 56824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:50:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u7v5l$f[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:52:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:44:28 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:17:28 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>># Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement, as far as being
>>># able to destroy, and wasn’t developed until a certain
>>># time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there
>>># already. It is also evident, going by Holocaust facts,
>>>that
>>># carbon monoxide was used with relative ease compared to
>>>what
>>># the Germans had to go through with Zyklon B.
>>
>>>Hardly. Bottled CO was rather expensive and difficult to
>>>ship around in large quantities. Engine exhaust caused
>>>problems (we have the report about an explosion taking
>>>place in Chelmno), engines would break down, and it is
>>>not clear how it would apply for the huge gas chambers
>>>of Birkenau.
>>
>>>Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a
>>>very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS
>>>had a great deal of experience with using it.
>>
>> What an asshole.
>>
>Folks, ain’t this just a great style of argument? Rather lame isn’t
>it? I see all those heads nodding “yes.” 🙂
>> You have been the strongest supporter of CO at Treblinka and suddenly
>>when it is not the hottest thing since sex in another place you are
>>all over it.
>>
>Danny is dealing with this in a realistic way. I firmly believe that
>Danny is not a supporter of CO at Treblinka for I’ll bet he wishes
>that it didn’t happen. But it did. Treblinka is the apple that used CO
>to kill.
Treblinka is what proved that CO was equally deadly to HCN. Other
than that impossibility, it must all be true.
>> This is the usual holohugging crap. Used Russian and German for that
>>matter tank engines were as available at A-B as at Treblinka.
>>
>This is denier crap. A-B is the orange that used Zyklon. Comparing an
>apple with an orange must be frustrating for you.
I have compared the witnesses “times to death” many times and they are
about the same. You know that. I have posted it many times. What
is your problem with it?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:28 PDT 1996
Article: 56825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!uw-coco!nwnews.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:16:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 12:19:17 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:37:17 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 20:28:32 -0300, Keith Morrison
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Miloslav Bilik wrote:
>>
>> >> > Since this is your field, why are you ignorant of the velocity
>> >> >difference between the boundaries of a river and the center of a
>> >> >river? Or are you overlooking what you clearly have to know in the
>> >> >rush to create some plausibility for the idea that the ashes would
>> >> >have washed away so quickly?
>> >>
>> >> You can easily find the actual average flow of the Vistula is 970m^3/s
>> >> at Varsow.
>>
>> >Woohoo, *numbers*!
>>
>> >Going back to the Amazon, it discharges 3 million tonnes of sediment per day
>> >with an water flow between 34 and 121 million litres per second. We’ll
>> >use the higher figure. Given 1000 litres/ m^3 we get a flow of 121 000
>> >cubic meters per second. Three million tonnes a day is 34.7 tonnes per
>> >second. That is .00029 tonnes per cubic meter of sediment transported.
>>
>> >If we take 2.7 kilos of cremated remains per person, with a million
>> >people we get 2700 tonnes. Assuming the Vistula can carry the same
>> >sediment load as the Amazon, that 2700 tonnes requires 9 310 345 m^3
>> >to move it. At the given flow rate, this will require a grand total
>> >of 9600 seconds.
>> >
>> >Oh dear. I seem to have gotton rid of all the ash in 160 minutes…
>>
>> You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the
>> bone fragments. You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the
>> banks and bottom.
>>
>> Yet you continue to try to represent bone fragments as mud.
>>
>> This is clearly an attempt to decieve on your part.
>>
>> You are joining two self professed chemists in the matter of deception
>> despite scientific knowledge.
>>
>> It is rather disgusting to see people do things like this.
>>
>> But then in your case, a strong back was a terrible thing to waste.
>Alright, you arrogant sonuvabitch, you show me that all a river *ever* moves,
>even a slow moving one, is silt-sized particles. You show me that *all* the
>ground bone was 1 centimeter across and then tell me how in hell you devise
>a grinding method to ensure no particles get smaller.
>And then, once you’ve done all that, try and explain how the hell erosion
>ever manages to occur if only silt sized particles can be moved.
Being the arrogant SOB that I am, let us stick with your claim that
boundary flow is the same as the main channel flow.
After all, you are the self proclaimed expert on the subject.
I want you to explain this.
The reason is that you are at least honest in professional matters, as
is AG. He, on the other hand, drops a subject when he would have to
admit the facts are against holohuggers.
You appear to be willing to procede to the bitter end in your claims.
This is all a show for the lurkers.
If you had dropped it, they would not be reading your continued
attempts to revive a failed issue by continuing this exchange.
Why do you to it?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:29 PDT 1996
Article: 56829 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:31:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 3:33:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:52:42 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># You refused to posted the english.
>You are, plain and simple, out of your mind.
>Never was I offered to post the English translation
>of anything, nor did I ever refuse to post it.
Right, you never refused to post it. But I was the first to post it.
And you were requested many times to post it in English.
So what is the point your are trying to make here?
>You’re crazy, old boy. It may be just a matter of days
>before the health authorities intervene.
More threats. I love them. Keep them coming.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:29 PDT 1996
Article: 56831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:17:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 10:20:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:15:07 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># You mean like the name who was gassed six times and lived
># to tell about it?
>Giwer applies the oldest “revisionist” trick in the book – use
>one (most probably false) testimony to argue that all the
>events of the Holocaust never took place.
So how do you tell the true from the false testimony? I have a very
successful test of true from false. If they mention only gassing it
is true. If they go into any detail about gassing it is false. And
that is because not one testimony that goes into any detail about
gassing contains nonsense.
And that is the criteria that the holohuggers use. They know they can
not rely upon any testimony for any detail. That is why they insist
upon these great reconstructions by mainly non-historians, rather
dramatic writers, to make an emotional case and ignore the need for
details.
>Never mind that, as he knows well, the person who made
>this testimony was only 11-years-old when the war ended,
>which obviously makes him a far less reliable witness.
>But Giwer will not mention this, of course.
And Wiesel was only 14 yet he was given the grand tour of all the
gassing camps in Europe and miraculously avoided being gassed in all
of them. He is hardly less incredible in his story. He just doesn’t
know why he was not gassed.
And of course we have already been told in the Anne Frank story that
she would have been gassed if she were younger. Yet Wiesel was
younger in all but A-B so he should have been gassed based upon age.
>As has been posted here in the past, every event of such
>kind will produce some erroneous testimonies. Like these
>crazy testimonies about Dresden’s bombing: people melting
>into “puddles of melted human flesh”, or turning into
>a “fine layer of ash”, although the fire didn’t even
>touch them!
But how do you explain ALL the “testimonies” being false in most
aspects?
I can explain it very easily in two ways.
The first is that they were repeating camp rumors.
The second is that the testimony was generated by whatever the KGB was
called in those days.
And if you think the KGB is not good, there is not one person in a
hundred who can read their “AIDS was a US biowarfare experiment that
got loose” and point out why it is false.
>So now what? Dresden’s bombing is a “hoax” too?
Some day even holohugging lawyers will learn the difference between
physical evidence and testimony. If you believe testimony you would
be come a fundie.
But then no one cares about people who promote the idea that Dresden
never occurred.
Yet there are so many rabid holohuggers who will not permit the
slightest questioning of the gassing stories.
Why do you care in the least?
># Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject
># happened.
>There’s plenty of evidence, including the cyanide traces
>on the walls of the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers. And Giwer
>knows this. For a typical “Giwerian argument” about the
>Holocaust, see below. And bear in mind that Giwer claims
>to have an IQ of 163.
Obviously you, as a mere genius, do not understand what I am talking
about. I have tried to explain it to you but you are hopelessly
unequipped to understand.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
McVay, Ken (KM214)
1B Systems Management Limited
5-1601 Bowen Road
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
CA
(604) 758-2499
Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:30 PDT 1996
Article: 56838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:50:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:52:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 03:39:36 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Yes, I read it. It is of no value to this discussion.
>#
># I have already stipulated that cyanide is useful in
># fumigating morgues.
>One only wonders why only one “morgue” had a gas-tight
>door.
If you are wondering about that, wonder about LK II not having such a
door. And wondering wyhy the undressing rooms in Kremas IV and V that
were used for gassing not having such doors or slit coverings.
Rather than wondering you will be inventing witness testimony to imply
you have read but will never post.
Moreover, some of your fuehrers now say it was
>really a delousing chamber, while others say it was an
>air-raid shelter. They don’t seem to be able to decide.
None have said the former. You are invited to post what you think you
have read. As to the latter, I have merely said that the
characteristics are more like bomb shelters (as a secondary purpose)
than of any rationally designed gas chamber.
>And you lied when you said no such forensic examinations
>were undertaken.
And we still do not have any evidence of a forensic examination. We
have only someone’s claim that something that was posted is true but
as we can all clearly see, if that is forensics, then a Gilbert
chemistry set is chemistry.
>But you’re a pathological liar. We know that.
Whatever libel you wish to post. You are the folks relying upon the
archives, not me.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 07:54:31 PDT 1996
Article: 56844 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!rainrgnews0!pacifier!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:27:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 3:29:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:03:13 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >Assuming a particle size of 10 millimeters square. Assume 800 cubic meters
>> >of these particles. That is 800 000 000 cubic centimeters. The *maximum*
>> >area that can be covered is 80 000 square meters. One hectare is 10000
>> >square meters, thus this area is 8 hectares.
>>
>> >About twenty acres. A small farm’s worth. Wow, hard to get rid of…
>>
>> Been there, done that, did you miss my post on the subject? Your
>> particle size is WRONG. Correct it.
>BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Why did you adopt this Hispanic comic strip idiom? I am quite
curious. I first saw in in messages originating from south Texas and
then about two years later it appeared to lose all geographic
reference of orgin and come from most anywhere.
So when and why did you adopt it?
Hey Giwer, is the metric system now one of your areas of
>ignorance? Surely a physics major such as yourself realizes that 10 millimeters
>is *exactly* the same size as 1 centimeter? What an idiot. What’s the matter,
>they never taught you weights and measures in your so-called education?
I have never said otherwise.
In fact the FIRST post on the sieve size said that was .4 inches which
I translated into in 1 cm.
But given what you are quoting, it is unclear what point your are
trying to make with your spic imitation.
>> More clearly that means that the questions McVay invented AFTER he
>> publically announced I was in his killfile will not be answered in any
>> form. I hope that is clear to you.
>No no no, I mean questions that *I* asked you. Some dating long before Ken
>kill filed you. *My* questions are:
>1. What hominid averaged seven feet in height?
>2. How many bones does _Gray’s Anatomy_ say form the skull and pelvis?
>3. What are the hard parts of foams made of?
>4. When was the tape recorder invented?
>5. When was the term “United Nations” first used?
They are McVeigh’s also, so what is your point in this? Do you think
you are creative enough to come up with your own distortions?
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 13:05:50 PDT 1996
Article: 56890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:51:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 3:53:40 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:25:56 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># The self proclaimed PhD mathematician
>My Ph.D is in computer science, as I have said a few times.
># has not posted one
># calculation since I have been here this time.
>Yes I did.
># I would think by now it is clear this person has not the
># slightest concept of math.
>I understand your anger and frustration. I understand your
>inferiority complex. I realize that you are a loser; your
>life is behind you.
>Why would a genius such as yourself retire at the age of
>46. One really wonders at that.
>You take pride at being an engineer, as I recall. I have
>a (rather subjective, I admit) definition of what a
>good engineer is: someone who really understands the
>concept of a derivative. Most engineers don’t. I don’t
>believe you do.
>So, you seek revenge by saying that I don’t know anything
>about math. Fine. That’s your right.
>Since what we’re discussing here is fitting data, you may
>want to look at my paper about this, presented at the
>1995 conference on maximum entropy and Bayesian methods,
>before you pass judgement on my mathematical skills. I
>guess that computing integrals over infinite-dimensional
>Hilbert spaces and stuff like that is child’s play for you,
>so there should be no difficulties?
>I’d be happy to send you a postscript file of the paper.
>Just let me know.
Guess what. I have just discovered that I can get the local ability
to read it in that form (since you appear unable to master the
switches to output it in .txt format.
Stick with me and I will probably requesting it real soon but mailed
to a different address. That address has mastered the arcane art of
converting it to .TXT in his spare time.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 13:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56891 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:04:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:06:56 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:11:05 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># If you have an actual, recorded death rate in the camps for
># that time frame then you are working from a list of recorded
># admissions and recorded deaths.
>The figures are from Pohl’s letter to Himmler. I don’t recall
>he gives the exact reason for death, certainly not for
>every individual.
>It is not for me to explain why they died. It is for Nazi
>apologists to explain how come there was a death rate of
>10 percent per month (!!) during, for instance, July-September
>1942, in the “work camps”, while the death rate during the
>whole war, for Allied POW’s, was about 3 percent.
Whoopy shit.
A recruiting approach during WW II was to claim that the death rate
was lower for troops in the field than people at home. It was quite
true. I leave the reason that it was true as an exercise for a
burgeoning mathematician.
>Now, that you have nothing more to say, you’ll start demanding
>to see an autopsy for each and every victim, and to demand
>forensic evidence that it was really the Nazis who were
>guilty for his/her death. But then again, one can also demand
>an autopsy for everyone who died in Dresden, and a forensic
>proof that it was indeed the alleged Allied bombs who killed
>him/her. You’re making about as much sense.
>You’re desperate. I can understand that. But do try not to
>lose the little sanity which you may still have.
Your math talent is displayed no where.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 13:05:52 PDT 1996
Article: 56896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:56:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:58:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
sOn Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:31:42 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>Testimony of SS private Boeck:
>[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein,
>Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
>chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
>p. 181].
>——————————————————————
>Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?
>A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
> transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
> jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
> women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
> trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
> the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
> place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
> (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
> people were standing on clothes which were building up on
> the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
> were there. Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There
> was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing
> children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in
> and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
> SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
> ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
> was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
> were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next
> batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn’t
> look at my wife for four weeks.
>
>-Danny Keren.
Danny boy, the pipes are callin you. Throwing in children, a terrible
cry. Heat given off when there is no source of heat.
How can I thank you for another example of holohuggers idiocy? I
never can.
Please consider this a matter of heartfelt gratitude for this absurd
testimony.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 14:38:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:21:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4ub[email protected]> <4ue[email protected]> <4uf[email protected]> <4ul[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 3:23:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:41:10 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >> That a designer can ever know more than the user of the design is an
>> >>absurdity of the first magnitude.
>>
>> > Everyone who uses a TV set knows all about antenna design, cathode ray
>> >tubes, frequencies, transistors, etc. Is that the claim you are indeed
>> >making?
>>
>> No.
>Well *that* ranks right up there in the running for Most Blatant Lie of the Week.
First, I was asked a question an answered it.
Two, it hardly ranks with “the boundary flow speed is the same as the
center flow speed” from a proclaimed expert in the field.
>”That the designer can ever know more than the user of a design is an absurdity
> of the first magnitude.”
>That is what you said. Tell us, Speaker of Lies, what *did* you mean, if not
>what you wrote?
The designer tells you how good it is going to be when you get it.
The user tells you how bad it is now that he has it.
It sounds like you are firmly on the side of external fuel tanks for
trucks and the like.
And the real engineer goes to the field to learn how his design has
failed and why and learn to do better next time.
But then, you know nothing of engineering.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 16:35:59 PDT 1996
Article: 56921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 23:12:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj$1n[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-43.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 6:14:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>## No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It’s
>>## on the web.
>>
>># “Look it up. It’s on the web” Mr.Keren says. Does he offer exact
>># locations? No.
>>
>>https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images
>>
>>Files peters-rasch-135.jpg (bottom) and peters-rasch-136.jpg
>>(section 2. of that page).
> Okay there it is. Anyone who can read German and won’t mind
>having to scroll the light gray 24 point type sideways, go for it.
>It would have been a lot easier for everyone involved, including the
>Internet resources if Mr.Keren just posted it here, but for some
>reason he never does, preferring to direct people to Nizkor files.
But this way it lets them brag about the number of hits without having
to reveal what generates them.
It gives the impression to their “contributors” that they are getting
the word out when in fact so many of the hits are from people digging
up material that works against the claims made here.
And if it is like the Degesh Publication that this same person refused
to post for so long, the reason is that that translation goes more
against he chosen beliefs than favors them.
And the result of giving them another hit to brag about this was the
result.
https://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images
Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
unable to complete
your request.
Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and
inform them of the
time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may
have caused the
error.
It is interesting that “I” may have caused the error.
From [email protected] Mon Aug 12 16:36:00 PDT 1996
Article: 56934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:59:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <[email protected]> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <4ujf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 12:01:27 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 11 Aug 1996 13:44:02 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:17:24 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>>wrote:
>>>Yet again you bring up a single erroneous description among thousands of
>>>accurate ones.
>>
>>>Sorry, but trying to carp on that single error is just intellectual
>>>dishonesty.
>>
>>>You lost the argument and simply repeat nonsense – as always.
>>
>> You really do need to catch up on the conference material. That is
>>one of many I and others have posted. For example eyewitnesses have
>>conclusively proven that HCN and CO are on the same order of
>>lethality.
> This is a lie which I have already dealt with. Matt took the highest
>ESTIMATE he could find for a cyanide gassing and a case where too little
>was used, or used in an area with poor circulation and sealing, and
>compared it to the lowest ESTIMATE he could find for CO gassing, and
>ignored all considerations of dosage, temperature, room size and
>circulation, etc.
Anyone who has followed this NG knows I have referred to the most
common (modal) reports, not the extremes. It is obvous you have not
followed this conference.
Go to DejaNews and catch up on the conference posts.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:45:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 1:48:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:37:47 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>># The self proclaimed PhD mathematician
>>
>>My Ph.D is in computer science, as I have said a few times.
>>
>># has not posted one
>># calculation since I have been here this time.
>>
>>Yes I did.
>>
>># I would think by now it is clear this person has not the
>># slightest concept of math.
>>
>>I understand your anger and frustration. I understand your
>>inferiority complex. I realize that you are a loser; your
>>life is behind you.
>>
>>Why would a genius such as yourself retire at the age of
>>46. One really wonders at that.
>>
>>You take pride at being an engineer, as I recall. I have
>>a (rather subjective, I admit) definition of what a
>>good engineer is: someone who really understands the
>>concept of a derivative. Most engineers don’t. I don’t
>>believe you do.
>>
>>So, you seek revenge by saying that I don’t know anything
>>about math. Fine. That’s your right.
>>
>>Since what we’re discussing here is fitting data, you may
>>want to look at my paper about this, presented at the
>>1995 conference on maximum entropy and Bayesian methods,
>>before you pass judgement on my mathematical skills. I
>>guess that computing integrals over infinite-dimensional
>>Hilbert spaces and stuff like that is child’s play for you,
>>so there should be no difficulties?
>>
>>I’d be happy to send you a postscript file of the paper.
>>Just let me know.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
>>
> Wow, what a lashing. It starts off with Giwer claiming Mr.Keren
>has not made one mathematical statement out here. This might be true.
>But maybe Giwer didn’t know that Mr.Keren will most definitely respond
>to a mathematical statement, in his own way. He may come out and
>respond to a mathematical statement by saying something like it’s
>”Moronic mathematics” or ‘you don’t know what your talking about’. His
>favorite method of responding to a post that cites numerical figures
>is by making a correction with statements like, “somewhat more than”
>or, “a bit longer”, or “a little less”, all depending on what suits
>the Holocaust story of course.
Which of course calibrates his ablities at math. It will be
interesting to some day find out just how many of his claims are BS
and which few are real. Did he ever respond to the request for the
information to verify his PhD?
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:35 PDT 1996
Article: 57055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:42:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 2:44:45 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 02:10:16 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> But how do you explain ALL the “testimonies” being false in most
>>aspects?
>>
>> I can explain it very easily in two ways.
>>
>> The first is that they were repeating camp rumors.
>>
>> The second is that the testimony was generated by whatever the KGB was
>>called in those days.
> Of course Matt must pretend that Franz Suchomel never spoke to Claude
>Lanzmann and admitted gassing, that Dr. Muench never spoke to Swedish
>television and admitted gassing, that Rauff never gave a deposition in
>Chile affirming that Becker sent him a letter about gassing vans….
> This is, of course, because he is a liar.
And you of course must pretend that the more heinous the crime the
fewer the false confessions when you know it is the other way around.
Why do you not explain to me some day why the more heinous the crime
the more people confess to them? I am certain we would all like to
know.
It will explain a lot about those confessions.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:36 PDT 1996
Article: 57056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:47:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 1:49:46 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:57056 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2576 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:451 alt.usenet.kooks:28104
On 12 Aug 1996 00:59:25 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote:
>>>> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level
>>>> of “proof” for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire,
>>>> it may be a bit too subtle.
>>
>>> As satire it’s right on. For the deniers though, the problem is that
>>> they’re a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth.
>>
>> You too appear to miss the point. No one cares in the least if
>>someone does not accept the Dresden story.
>>
>> So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story?
>>
>> What difference does it make?
>>
>> Answer: None whatsoever.
> Gee, then what do you think you are doing here? Obviously nothing of
>any value, according to your own words. After all, if it makes no
>difference if people do not accept the gassing story, it makes no
>difference if they do. Yet you seem to be spending a lot of energy
>arguing against it.
I have told you many times why I am here. Have you missed all of
them?
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 57059 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!news.redshift.com!news.cis.okstate.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!eru.mt.luth.se!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:10:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:12:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:07:42 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Tell it to the idiots are who claiming it floats. Then get back to
>> me.
>TRY AGAIN, MATT.
>YOU JUST DON’Y SEE IT, DO YOU?
>YOU were the one to say that calcium oxide sinks.
>I said that it depends on the form and that it dissolves.
>*YOU* claim that bones do not have carbon.
>Mike has stated that *YOUR CLAIM* is wrong – since bones are not made of
>calcium oxide.
>Mike is right.
>Now for the $64 questions.
>1. What happens to calcium carbonate when heated?
>2. What happens to that(1) when placed in water?
>3. What happens to that(2) when exposed to CO2?
When bones are heated the small bones will go down to ash. The large
bones become brittle from the loss of the organic material that kept
them flexible. At the end of the cremation process they are ground to
some fragment size.
Exposure of this relatively inert material to either water or CO2
results in nothing.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 57081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!news.udel.edu!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.cftnet.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:57:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <094[email protected]> <4u9erm[email protected]> <4ua[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:59:34 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 8 Aug 1996 22:10:47 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On 7 Aug 1996 12:48:22 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First off your basic numbers are at odds with people who know
>>>>>> something about cremation. Again, the internet cremation society for
>>>>>> openers.
>>>>
>>>>>Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions – or admit
>>>>>that you’re BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance.
>>>>
>>>> The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the
>>>>cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has
>>>>been posted here.
>>
>>> As have the comments of someone who designs cremation ovens, and
>>>refutes a number of denier claims while taking a position between the
>>>deniers and the Jahrling memo on cremation time. In particular the second
>>>body cremated does not take the fuel required for the first, since the
>>>oven has been brought up to temperature from the first time.
>>
>> Then it appears only that we have a stand off between two different
>>opinions. We do not have refutation.
> I think the word of an engineer who designs an oven trumps the opinion
>of a mere user of an oven.
You must still be an undergrad.
That a designer can ever know more than the user of the design is an
absurdity of the first magnitude.
Your statement is laughable, an academic absurdity, and not uncommon.
The engineer tells his wife how great is it going to be when she gets
it. The wife knows what she got. The wife is wrong in your opinion.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:38 PDT 1996
Article: 57085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:13:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:15:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:04:13 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
># 16 to 1, Mr.Keren.
>Not really. The 15 minutes for 4 corpses is probably an
>underestimate, and most estimates I’ve seen give a longer
>time.
>What you apparently cannot realize is that, today, a few
>corpses aren’t burned in the same furnace, but this is
>out of respect for the dead, and the need to collect
>the ashes of each individual. There were no such
>considerations in Auschwitz.
>Plus, in Auschwitz-Birkenau, a high percentage of the
>victims were children and infants, who weigh very
>little and take up a very little space.
>The question is, were the 52 cremation furnaces enough
>to burn a great number of corpses daily? The answer is,
>obviously, yes; even if one assumes 12 hours per day
>per furnace, and 2 corpses per hour, that still gives
>52*12*2 = 1,248 corpses per day; and this is a conservative
>estimate, much lower than what the SS had estimated.
>No one builds so many crematoriums and so many cremation
>furnaces unless he is planning mass murder.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
You are VERY, VERY strange.
As you know there are NO records whatsoever for those immediately
gassed. And no you claim they were mainly infants and children. Save
there no documentation of the undocumented in the first place.
There is no need to assume gassing unless you assume there were
undocumented people in the first place.
And to assume they were undocumented means you have no case to begin
with.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 57091 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:32:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 2:35:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2580 alt.revisionism:57091 alt.conspiracy:77542 alt.politics.white-power:39286 soc.culture.jewish:67935 talk.politics.guns:298368 talk.politics.libertarian:111379 talk.abortion:181399 alt.christnet:91338
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:51:59 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> But it was in fact her original position that it appeared to be
>> harrassment.
>Only to YOU, Mr. Giwer.
>
>I do NOT believe your father was harassed. I believe he was asked a simple
>question on the telephone.
You say you do not now but you did then as you posted.
And it was instantly recognized as such by my father. Perhaps the
years of police work let him smell a liar from the beginning?
>I *DO* however, believe that you would delight in harassing a poor old
>woman who survived a living hell just to prove your own warped agenda.
Why would you believe that?
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 08:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 57092 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:28:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 2:31:34 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2581 alt.revisionism:57092 alt.conspiracy:77543 alt.politics.white-power:39287 soc.culture.jewish:67936
On 12 Aug 1996 14:04:00 GMT, [email protected] (Charles Don Hall)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote:
>>>> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level
>>>> of “proof” for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire,
>>>> it may be a bit too subtle.
>>
>>> As satire it’s right on. For the deniers though, the problem is that
>>> they’re a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth.
>>
>> You too appear to miss the point. No one cares in the least if
>>someone does not accept the Dresden story.
>Not so. If someone were really to deny the Dresden story, then
>lots of people would care: The people who were there at the time. The
>people who lost relatives. The people who don’t like attempts to
>cover-up past tragedies. The Kurt Vonnegut fans. Lots of people.
Your imagination, not mine. Rather people who were there were simply
ignore the people who claimed it did not happen as nut cases of some
sort and ignore them.
And really, why would SF fans care if Vonnegut came up with another
wrinkle to his SF story? Finding Dresden in the story is hardly
promoting its occurance.
But rather in this case questioning gassing for lack of physical
evidence gets one called all kinds of names and incites all kinds of
harrassment and gets one treated like a common criminal and a real
criminal in some countries.
And more specifically, if prior to six years ago anyone had been
promoting the number of deaths at Auschwitz as are “true” today the
same thing would have happened. Why? The original number was always
absurd. The lesser number today is only less absurd.
>> So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story?
>More people were affected by the gassings, hence more people care
>deeply.
Excuse me, but like here, those “afffected” are bemoaning relatives
they never knew. In many cases they a decade or three before they
were born. Their “losses” are two and three generations back. It is
quite impossible to miss what you never had.
>Also, it’s pretty clear that the Holocaust deniers have a specific
>antisemitic agenda. Since people don’t like to be persecuted, it’s
>not suprising that they’d be vigorous in opposing this agenda.
Please explain in detail what is antisemitic about pointing to the
lack of physical evidence of gassing? What was antisemitic about
Auschwitz lowering the numbers to something approaching a reasonable
number?
Please explain what even an agenda would have to do with getting a
true picture of what happened during that war?
And do you not find it interesting that in the interests of finding
out what really happened in that war, that the picture has changed so
many times and yet those who found problems with so many things now
considered untrue were considered antisemitic?
>Dresden-deniers don’t really exist, so it’s hard to say what
>their agenda is, and it’s therefore hard to get upset about it.
>> What difference does it make?
>>
>> Answer: None whatsoever.
>It makes no difference whatsoever to *you*, of course. We knew
>that already. But that doesn’t have anything to do with how
>rational people feel about it.
Rational people do not miss what they never had.
>On the other hand, what difference does it make that someone
>called your father and politely asked for your phone number?
Considering all of the harrassment I and my son have received for my
postings I had no interest in a man identifying himself as Ken McVay
doing that in such a sloppy manner that, rather than appear polite and
courtious, aroused immediate suspicion as to an improper intention.
You are believing his side of the story and accepting his “skillful”
method of inquiring about information and also his claim as to lying
about his identity. That is not in fact how it was perceived or how
it came off.
The bastard fucked up royally and came off as a liar from the start.
>To most rational people, it makes no difference at all. But
>it obviously made a difference to you…to read your articles
>at the time, one would have thought that the Mean Old Jews
>had stolen the Sun from out of the sky and were forcing us
>all to stumble around in the darkness forever.
I have no idea what you are talking about. But if appears you have to
make up things like this to justify your attitude to yourself.
>The moral of the story…such as it is…is that different
>people react to events in different ways. You didn’t know
>that, did you?
People do react to events they experience. People do not react to
what they do not experience. They do react to what they are told
about what they experience.
And if what they are told is wrong, and if they are over 16 they were
most likely at least one wrong thing (and the older they are the more
wrong things they were told) then their reactions are wrong to what
really happened.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 09:28:38 PDT 1996
Article: 39301 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.fast.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:06:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 3:08:42 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2583 alt.revisionism:57103 alt.conspiracy:77561 alt.politics.white-power:39301 soc.culture.jewish:67943 talk.politics.guns:298406 talk.politics.libertarian:111385 talk.abortion:181403 alt.christnet:91349
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:00:34 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:09:10 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
>>wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:08:07 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>[email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>>>>>> Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government,
>>>>>> else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp….There
>>>>>> are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone
>>>>>> think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?….So
>>>>>> we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish???
>>>>>What a fascinating thought!
>>>>>
>>>>>Okay, please respond to this:
>>>>>
>>>>>I had relatives who were babies when they were murdered by the Nazis.
>>>>>
>>>>>What crime do you think they committed?
>>>> Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics having
>>>>been done on the bodies, that sort of thing.
>>>Having noted yourself, asshole, that the bodies were cremated, how
>>>could a forensics been done?
>>>You are SUCH an asshole.
>> So you agree there is no physical evidence of gassing. Very good. At
>>least you are honest.
>Don’t put words in my mouth, scumbag.
>> You are the first holohugger to admit the obvious.
>> Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of gassing is
>>happening. 70% say yes.
>I’d say it’s more like 100%. Once an inmate got to Auschwitz, they
>knew the gassing was going on because of the constant stench from the
>crematoria. Word tends to get around. EVERY SINGLE Holocaust
>narrative I’ve ever read has people in the camps point to the stacks
>and say, “That’s your only way out of here.”
Tell it to Keren, he demands proof of the obvious.
>> Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by the
>>government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
>Care to provide a source, Doctor?
CNN poll also covered by Nightline and 60 Minutes.
>> Tell me the difference when you find the time.
>Me: Human being
>You: Sick pathetic beast
>————————————-
>”Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
>”Be wary of the authorities…”
> Rabban Gamliel
> Pirkei Avot 2:3
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 11:40:48 PDT 1996
Article: 57096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.unb.ca!bignews.cycor.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:14:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 3:16:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:39:46 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the
>> bone fragments. You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the
>> banks and bottom.
>And another thing. How do you expect me to talk with someone using math
>if that person does not have the education to realize that 10 millimeters
>is the same size as 1 centimeter?
>Oh, I’m sorry, that’s right. In *your* universe, they aren’t the same.
If you really thought your micrometer post meant millimeters may god
grant you remedial math.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 11:40:48 PDT 1996
Article: 57102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:35:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 2:37:57 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:49:16 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># As I said, it is only fifty years. I also said the
># thousands of tons of bone fragments were not found
># in 1945. I made the point that no one looked for them.
>As was pointed out here numerous times, large amounts
>of human remains were found in some of the camps, such
>as Treblinka and Maidanek.
>Not to mention the corpses found in camps such as Belsen.
>The British had to use bulldozers to bury them; there
>were simply too many.
>But you know this.
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images/belsen02.jpg
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images/belsen01.jpg
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/nordhausen/images/nordhausen.jpg
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images/Maidan02.jpg
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/images/Dachau01.jpg
># So where are you going with all of this?
>You tell us.
>-Danny Keren.
Before I give the hatesite a gratuitous hit, WHICH of these is of
piles of bone fragments?
None? As expected.
To repeat, there is no evidence.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All
garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 14:18:14 PDT 1996
Article: 57119 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:59:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 3:02:17 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2586 alt.revisionism:57119
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:22:45 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:30:01 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>># A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and
>>># died in a reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time
>>># prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements.
>>
>>>No, no, Giwer. That won’t do.
>>
>>>1) Jager’s report explicitly mentions a huge number of
>>> Jewish women and children executed by his Einsatzkommando.
>>
>> That is called a reprisal. The same thing was done in France.
>Women and children in reprisals? You support this notion?
>Yes, the German probably murdered women and children is France also.
>What’s your point?
I did not say I supported it. I said it was done. That does not make
it a “jewish” thing is all.
If done in reprisal then it was not a jewish thing.
>>>3) Letter from Inspector of Armaments in the Ukraine to General of
>>> Infantry, Thomas, December 2 1941: clearly states that the
>>> Jews did not represent a danger to the German Army.
>>
>> A danger to the Army is not the same as killing members of the army
>>which was the reason for reprisals. The civilians at Vicksburg were
>>not a danger to the Union Army under Sherman but they were killing its
>>members.
>>
>Sherman and Vicksburg? Seems to me that Grant was shelling the city
>while holding it under siege. We may as well fault the Confederates
>for hiding behind civilain skirts. Winfield Scott did the same at Vera
>Cruz. He refused to let civilians out of the city. This forced the
>city’s surrender.
You are beginning to understand war.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 14:18:15 PDT 1996
Article: 57121 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:05:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 3:07:36 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:07:37 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># So you agree there is no physical evidence of gassing.
># Very good. At least you are honest.
>He didn’t admit anything of the sort. As usual, you are
>lying and attributing to people things they never said.
I am certain the gentleman can speak for himself and does not need
you. Or can you provide certification that you are his official
spokesman?
>All this “forensic evidence” is a lame joke and you
>know it. You cannot supply any such “forensic evidence”
>to any event in WW2. You were asked to provide such
>evidence to the fact that Dresden was bombed, and you
>could not produce anything. Zero. Zilch.
You need to take lessons from YFE in lying about what constitutes
physical and forensic evidence. They you could do a better job.
>The funny thing is that, for the gassings at Auschwitz-
>Birkenau, there’s *more* of this type of evidence than
>for your average historical event: the cyanide compounds
>on the walls of the gas chambers.
On the walls of the morgues which were of course fumigated.
># Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of
># gassing is happening. 70% say yes.
>And your source for the 70% is? None. You’ve invented it.
If not true then it was not common knowledge as required by so many of
the stories.
># Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was
># created by the government to exterminate Blacks.
># 70% say yes.
>Source? Not that this is really relevant, I’m just curious to
>know if it’s true.
CNN poll and covered by Nightline and 60 Minutes. Are you completely
ignorant of current history?
>Now, is this some kind of a new Giwerian argument? If more
>than 50% of the population believe something is true, this
>means it’s not true? Heck, there goes WW2. After all,
>more than 50% of the population think it took place.
>You’re stupid beyond words.
You are very detached from current events. Are you really awake?
>See below.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All
garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 17:25:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!cygnus.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:53:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 2:56:28 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:22:06 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># So how do you tell the true from the false testimony?
>How do you tell the testimonies about the puddles of melted
>human flesh in Dresden from the correct testimonies?
># I have a very successful test of true from false. If they
># mention only gassing it is true. If they go into any detail
># about gassing it is false. And that is because not one
># testimony that goes into any detail about gassing contains
># nonsense.
>Prove it. Give examples.
I have, many times, and you have commented upon them. Did you really
miss the “gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing” detail. You can
only play this game so many times.
># And Wiesel was only 14 yet he was given the grand tour of all the
># gassing camps in Europe and miraculously avoided being gassed in all
># of them. He is hardly less incredible in his story. He just doesn’t
># know why he was not gassed.
>”All the gassing camps”? What garbage.
Tell him, not me.
>You hear only the survivors. True, most of them were
>lucky. The rest aren’t here to speak.
It is interested that you claim to hear the dead speak. Yet your
story rests solely upon the unregistered, that being a few extra
million out of the untraceable 31 million from that war.
># And of course we have already been told in the Anne Frank story that
># she would have been gassed if she were younger. Yet Wiesel was
># younger in all but A-B so he should have been gassed based upon age.
>This was the end of the war. Some people were lucky. Some
>survived. What the hell is your point?
Luck explains all of the incredible stories. Just like Alec explained
the man gassed six times and live, just luck.
># But how do you explain ALL the “testimonies” being false
># in most aspects?
>I don’t have to explain it, because it’s not true.
You pretend not to have read anything I have posted.
From [email protected] Tue Aug 13 23:12:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:44:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:46:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:06:42 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) writes:
>## the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in
>## 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them.
># It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up.
>I didn’t make it up. I am not a worthless liar like you.
As Alec would say, the URL?
># Perhaps you can point to Nizkor or any other site that
># supports it?
>It’s reported in Pressac’s book, with, as I recall, a
>photograph of the ventilation grills. I don’t have the
>book handy; perhaps someone can check. If not, I will
>post the page number when I return home, in about 3 weeks.
Three weeks. Very good. Expecting folks to forget your claim in that
time like you were hoping they would drop the “translation” of the
Degesh Publication?
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 08:50:49 PDT 1996
Article: 57218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:10:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 6:12:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:33:28 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the
>> bone fragments. You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the
>> banks and bottom.
>He already has responded.
>NEXT!
Sorry, he dropped it. He knows and you know it is false.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 08:50:50 PDT 1996
Article: 57222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:09:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 6:12:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:39:54 -0800, [email protected] (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison
>The Troll bleated:
>> > You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the
>> > bone fragments. You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the
>> > banks and bottom.
>The size of the bone fragments cab be adduced from the following:
>Source: “Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 / Danuta Czech. – 1st American ed.
>(ISBN 0-8050-0938-8); p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various Documents of
>the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping (origional in BA
>Koblenz).
>——————————————————————————–
>June 7 [1944]
>The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
>the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
>with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
>in size.**
>** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
>states during the H”oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
>taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
>and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127).
>——————————————————————————–
>This, obviously, means that the pulverized bone fragments, being sifted in
>these seives, were 2/5 of an inch or _less_ in size.
>The Troll has been told this many, many times but appears to be unable to
>understand the concept of how sieves work due to being severely mentally
>dysfunctional. (And an emottionally dysfunctional, and a socially
>dysfunctional, and….)
And of course I have said the size would be from 1cm down to about 1/2
cm with a small amount of the mass smaller than that. You apparently
are unable to comprehend that.
Try it real slow. The bones are crushed and put through the sieve.
What is caught in the sieve is crushed again.
Perhaps some day you will learn there is no need to grind after the
pieces are roughly the size desired. Or perhaps you have never ground
anything, never even used a blender.
Or perhaps you believe in the misrepresentations of our local river
expert.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 08:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 57234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:25:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 7:27:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82786 alt.revisionism:57234
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:43:02 GMT, [email protected] (Martin
Paegert) wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>> You can of course evaporate HCN from Zyklon B at various temperatures, but
>> the higher the temperature the faster and thereby the more efficient it will
>> be. I think that the nazis would have chosen the most efficient method.
>Oh, they did do. And they did experiment a lot. With various gasses, and
>concerning HCN with various evaporational methods. In terms of mass
>gassing they did establish a very efficient method finally. It was cheap,
>fail-safe and very quick. By the way: they did have a lot more trouble
>with getting rid of all the corpses. To optimize the burning f.e.
Which makes any effort along the lines of a quick method rather
useless if the cremation can not keep up.
>> Why wouldn’t the Germans have taken a closer look at the American
>> experience instead of trying to apply an insecticide, which is what
>> Zyklon B really is.
>You mean sending a Nazi-delegation to the US in 42 and politely asking
>”Wouldn’t you awfully mind to share your experiences concerning gassings
>with us, please ?”?
You mean read the public literature on the subject? You mean they
would go to the US rather than to the library?
>By the way: if you plan mass-gassings, experiences from individual gassings
>are of very, very limited use.
Since you know the differences, perhaps you could explain them? Be
the first to do it rather than simply claim it.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 08:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 57249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!panix!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: History for mental midgets
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:15:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:18:15 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Those who forget history are duomed to repeat it.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 08:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 57264 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:42:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <5AUG199622222771@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 5:44:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:01:02 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:
>Matt Giwer’s ignorance rises its ugly head again:
>>On 5 Aug 1996 22:22 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>[…]
>>> This is immaterial as such evidence has been presented by Western
>>> historians.
>> Excuse me, historians were not involved in the trials and there have
>>been damned few historians involved in the holocaust. Given the
>>number of publications they are noteworthy by their relative absense.
>> Further not one “historian” or any writer for that matter has
>>presented any forensic evidence in any manner that would stand before
>>a first year law student.
>[…]
>What a pity that Mr. Giwer is utterly uninformed again. Why do you think was
>the court-verdict in the “Auschwitz-trials” in Germany in the 60s based on
>Hans Buchheim’s extensive study on the political structure of the SS-state?
>I begin to wonder if there is *anything* about which Mr. Giwer is not ignorant…
If it convinced you then you must have read it. Care to summarize?
Or shall we simply stipulate that you have never read it and know that
some trials were held and that there was a conviction.
However if, as you imply, it was “proven” that there was gassing at AB
based upon an analysis of “the SS State” then there is something truly
wrong with justice in Germany.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 11:17:01 PDT 1996
Article: 82801 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Provide the “records,” Mr. Hardy!
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:15:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:18:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82801 alt.revisionism:57273 talk.politics.european-union:5579
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:24:42 GMT, [email protected] (George
F. Hardy) wrote:
>Camp Jews Poles
>Auschwitz 205,000 137,000
>Majdanek 140,000 220,000
>Total 345,000 357,000
>Of course the ‘modern’ Auschwitz numbers have increased the Jewish
>deaths by a factor of over 400%, and a ‘token’ increase of
>Polish deaths of 9%. I do realize that the current claim is that
>the Germans were poor (and inaccurate) record keepers.
>Please understand my point. I am not challenging 6,000,000 Jews,
>I am pointing out the disparity between the attention given one
>group of 6,000,000 and a second groups of 500,000, while virtually
>ignoring two other groups of 5,000,000 and 2,000,000.
You do realize that if you stick your sources and refuse to accept
theirs the name called and the harrassment will start.
You may choose to simply drop out.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 11:17:02 PDT 1996
Article: 82803 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:22:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:25:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82803 alt.revisionism:57287 talk.politics.european-union:5580
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:08:32 GMT, [email protected] (Martin
Paegert) wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>> My father and grandfather died both of cancer. If somebody claimed that
>> they died in a traffic accident would I then be humiliated? Even if I
>> became annoyed I would never regard it a crime.
>Make it the other way round. Assume they have been killed in an accident by
>a drunken driver. And then assume, about 50 to 60 years later somebody is
>claiming that there were no drunken drivers at all so that your parents
>could not have been killed but just did die from cancer or so. Then you
>will get an impression of what is ment, me seems.
>Last not least ask yourself what you would think about those making these
>claims.
Loonies and ignore them, period.
Now explain this false angst over people that were never known.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 12:16:27 PDT 1996
Article: 57286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Plagarist and liar
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:22:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 3:25:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 09:35:39 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:
>In article
>[email protected] (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>> Wiesenthal agrees with me that there were no gassings except in
>>> Poland. What is your point?
>>Document this.
>Mr. Giwer cannot, of course, document this, as Mr. Wiesenthal
>did not say it.
>One can, of course, conclude from this that Mr. Giwer is a
>liar, but one needn’t draw one’s own conclusions: Mr. Giwer
>has already admitted he is a liar:
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>URL https://nizkor.org/encouragements/
>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s special
>newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
>ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
>redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
>an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>–
>Nizkor Canada | https://nizkor.org
>———————–| Remember John Hron
> |————————————–
> https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT
Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also
found powdered cyanide.
“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling-
the dummy shower heads. In the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet
pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve
to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal
smoke. From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the
crematory.”
IMT XXX – p.470.
Amazing what you can find if you look around.
And holohuggers are going to believe it.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 12:16:28 PDT 1996
Article: 57294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: death estimates
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:12:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 4:15:13 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
What we have to keep in mind is that all individual camp estimates are
not to be taken seriously.
At any time, the deaths at one camp can go down and we will know that
the estimates of the deaths at another camp will go up to compensate
so that the total number remains six million.
Most obviously this happened when half of the total of 6 vanished from
A-B but the total remained six.
What is amazing is that the experts “know” the total without concern
for the individual numbers.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 12:16:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57299 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:20:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:23:02 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82810 alt.revisionism:57299 talk.politics.european-union:5584
On 12 Aug 1996 10:47:29 GMT, [email protected] (Jerzy
Pankiewicz) wrote:
>In soc.culture.german George F. Hardy
>: According to German records, slightly more non Jewish Poles died
>: in Auschwitz than Jewish.
>It’s because Germans didn’t record Jews gassed instantly after
>their arrival. As far as I remember about 90 000 non-Jewish Poles
>died in Auschwitz and about 1 000 000 Jews (from many countries).
> Jerzy Pankiewicz
If they were not recorded, how do you know they arrived much less were
even sent?
In case you missed the point, there were transit records but they only
accounted for the recorded arrivals.
It seems that despite all of the “selection processes” at the camp as
to who could work and who would be gassed, those who put them on the
trains knew exactly the number that would be put to work and only
recorded them.
Thus the claim by the holohuggers that there were transit records and
at the same time being able to claim there were many shipped without
such records.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 13:39:08 PDT 1996
Article: 57311 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:39:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3200df2d.71525[email protected]> <3204c74c.38151[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:41:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:22:10 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>It’s kind of funny that Mr.Keren writing in English, refers
>>people to a source that is written in German.
> ====================
>Hint, hint… Go an learn some languages. The worlds seems to
>become infinetly richer – or is language learning Jewish?
Go learn some sciences. You will be infinitely better equipped for
understanding the world around you.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 15:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 57327 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:40:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:42:49 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:41:55 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Danny boy, the pipes are callin you. Throwing in
># children, a terrible cry.
>Is this “physically impossible”?
># Heat given off when there is no source of heat.
>In winter, when you crowd a large number of people into
>a small room, are you saying that this room will not
>be considerably hotter than the surrounding?
># How can I thank you for another example of holohuggers
># idiocy? I never can.
>How can I thank you for proving, yet again, that
>Nazi apologists are as dumb as they go?
>Want to go back to the SS-men not being able to carry
>4 Kg of Zyklon up the ladder? As you claimed? As it would
>be “too heavy”?
>You’re a stupid piece of dreck. Didn’t I tell you
>this already?
Quite true, Jewboy.
Beyond that, I made no such claim about being too heave but the amount
is at least 6 kg for each of the two, to match the time frame
required.
>-Danny Keren.
>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given
a check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of
fuel.”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 15:44:01 PDT 1996
Article: 57329 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:30:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1du[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:33:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 09:22:54 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
Schneider) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>On 9 Aug 1996 08:27:06 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan
>>Schneider) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt
>>>Giwer) wrote:
>>>>And it is the umpteenth time (for those of you in Canada, that means
>>>>many times) you have failed to note that “the greater part” is a
>>>>technical term in German referring to exponential decrease.
>>
>>>I’m astonished to see Mr. Giwer knowing aspects of the german language
>>>that hid from me for over thirty years.
>>>Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen
>>>technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der ‘groessere Teil’ heisst und der
>>>Meinung sind, dass dieser Ausdruck generell bedeutet, dass man bezug auf
>>>irgendeinen Prozess einer exponentiellen Abnahme nimmt, dann sind Sie
>>>furchtbar schief gewickelt.
>>>Know what I mean?
>>>–
>>> *[email protected]*
>>
>> You degree is in what?
>Well, I’m a biologist. The title is ‘Diplom-Biologe’. It’s a title not
>easily comparable to the ones you have in the states. But as a reputed
>expert for german langage and culture you sure know, what it is. I studied
>microbiology, biochemistry and genetics.
>By the way, would you be so klind to answer my question I asked you in
>german? I tried to arrange it inm a way, that shouldn’t be considered too
>hard for somebody with reasonable skills in german. I you think it too
>hard to answer it in german, write in english. More people will be
>convinced about your knowledge then.
I would rather not get into that. It has been too long. However I do
remembet the technical connection for “the greater part” as it was
used as an example in discussing the arbitrary nature of describing
this phenomenon in words. The other example was half life.
However, perhaps I remember incorrectly. What is the TECHNICAL
translation into english for “groessere Teil”? Unless it has a
specific technical meaning, it can mean anything between 50%+ to
100%-. That is a very imprecise term to be used in any science.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 16:17:22 PDT 1996
Article: 57347 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:57:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uhg8i$g[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 3:59:58 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 05:59:38 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:36:20 GMT, [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In <4u[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>[irrelevant troll reference snipped]
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>>>>>>writes:
>>>>>>previous discussion on the amount of ash snipped
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Wow. No problem to get rid of that ash at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly true, Mr. E:
>>>>>
>>>>>>ASHES
>>>>>> What became of the ashes of the victims at Auschwitz and
>>>>>> other extermination camps that cremated the bodies. Of
>>>>>> course this is a disrespectful and nasty question, since it
>>>>>> suggests that there is some deception taking place, but let’s
>>>>>> consider it anyway.
>>
>>>>This is where your problem begins. You believe that to ask questions
>>
>>>No, Ehrlich, this is where _your_ problem begins. You have no
>>>interest in discussion of facts, rather your interest – like that of
>>>all deniers/distorters – is simply in finding hooks to which you can
>>>append another recycled denier “argument.”
>>
>>>[snip ehrlichian pontifications]
>>
>>>>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>>>>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau. Fact: Around 1990, the Polish
>>>>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to
>about 1
>>>>million. Fact: The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8,
>the
>>>>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on
>totally
>>>>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp. Fact: This document was
>>>>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.
>>
>>>And, surprise, surprise, here it is: Yet another recycled denier
>>>”argument”. It has been presented and refuted countless times before.
>>>So many times, in fact, that you can find a web page discussing “The
>>>Auschwitz Gambit: The Four Million Variant”:
>>
>>>https://nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/4-million-1.html
>>
>>>Do tell us again, Ehrlich, about your “impressive intellect and
>>>knowledge.” Then perhaps you will address the discussion you snipped
>>>(i.e. the substance) of Ms. Alpert’s post.
>>
>> The “no historian” dodge again? The reason that is a safe dodge
>is
>>that there are so few historians (one? two?) in the field that it is
>>hardly of interest.
>>
>>
>What I find interesting about this is that the original point is not
>addressed at all. The so-called 4 million gambit refers to the argument,
>that, since the numbers for Auschwitz were lowered by about 3 million at
>the end of the 1980’s by a consensus of experts in the field, that means
>that 3 million less Jews were gassed or died or whatever.
>But I made it very clear that that is not the argument I am making. The
>argument that I _am_ making is that the 4 million claim is clearly rooted
>in Soviet propaganda, and, indeed, I believe Nizkor FAQ #31 (sic! —
>whichever one Moran keeps referring to) says almost the same thing.
>Indeed, the FAQ is even more explicit than I am — without foundation, I
>might add — about the _motivations_ of the Soviets who cooked the
>numbers.
>Now if we accept the argument of the FAQ — which is in fact what I am
>saying — then it follows that there has been some deception going on, or
>more charitably, some inaccuracy that has been allowed to persist for a
>long time for whatever reasons.
And of course as interesting is that the sum of all of the dead has
always been the same no matter how the individual numbers change. If
three million are lost in one place they are added some place else by
a similar “consensus” of experts.
It is clear that before the 3 million dead vanished anyone who had
learned addtion would have come up with 9 million. But of course
basic arithmetic has always been discouraged as antisemitic and
neo-nazi.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 17:51:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren, the latter day Einstein
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:04:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 3:07:00 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:07:16 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> refuses to apply his great math talents explaining the eyewitness
>> reports of death by HCN in 10-15 minutes and by CO in 15-20 minutes.
>>
>> Why does he refuse to do this?
>
>Probably because you’re a lying troll and Dr. Keren has better things to
>do with his time.
If he had better things to do with his time he would not be here.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 17:51:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Shove them all in
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:20:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 3:23:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
As the number of bodies that can be stuffed into one room is finite
the SS was always faced the the problem of too many or too few people
to bring to the gas chambers at one time. There is little problem
wtih too few.
But the problem with too many is maintaining order during the
obligatory dramatic moment of the 15 minutes of screaming. It would
appear a touch difficult and leading to a lot of machinegun fire the
moment the screaming started but it is never reported.
Rather than these and other obvious problems being reported by
witnesses they never occur.
In this case there is never a report of a head count to get a number
that will fit, they all come off the trains regardless of the number
that arrived alive. And there is never a case where there is a
problem making all of them fit. SS whips do accomplish miracles of
volumetric compression. (Maybe The Tall Man is SS.)
Obvious screwups with the presently accepted methods are never
reported.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 17:51:32 PDT 1996
Article: 57362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: “Ash Gets In Your Eyes” – Giwer’s New Theme Song
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:01:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 4:03:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:57:48 GMT, [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov)
wrote:
>In <4u[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>cobbles and weaves as he plays his version of the 4 million variant
>while riding one of his hobby-horses:
>[snip]
>>Lucy Dawidowicz claimed 2 million, from the context I assume she is
>>referring to Jews only.
>>(The War against the Jews / 1933-1945, New York, Holt, 1975, pp. 149-149).
>You assume this from the context do you, Ehrlich? Well let us take a
>look at the context:
>The immediately preceding paragraph (p. 148) to the “Auschwitz
>2,000,000” at the top. of p.149 reads as follows: [ellipses and
>emphasis are mine]
>
>THE STATISTICS OF THE DEATH CAMPS ARE ONLY APPROXIMATE. At Auschwitz,
>the largest mass-killing installation, many transports of deportees
>went directly from the detraining ramps to the gas chambers and WERE
>NEVER STATISCALLY REGISTERED. On March 16, 1946, Ho”ss made the
>following statement … : “I personally arranged on orders received
>from Himmler in May 1941 the gassing of two million persons between
>June-July 1941 and the end of 1942, during which time I was commandant
>of Auschwitz.” MOST VICTIMS AT THE DEATH CAMPS WERE JEWS, BUT ALSO
>GYPSIES AND THOUSANDS OF NON-JEWS – selected for particular reasons –
>were gassed.
>
>Sorry, Ehrlich, I may lack your “impressive intellect and knowledge”
>but I fail to see from the context the basis of your assumption “that
>she is referring to Jews only”
Directly from the man who testified that he personally witnessed the
first gassing and that death was immediate. The man who identified
the Wolzec camp. And of course he accepted them for “exterimination”
before he knew which gas to use but only knew that he was going to use
gas for some strange reason.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 18:31:38 PDT 1996
Article: 57371 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:33:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uhi8c$g[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:36:20 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 06:13:07 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
># Second, neither a height of 23 inches or 6 inches
># (with the dirt) would conceivably cast the kind of
># *shadow* we see in the picture.
>There is no shadow. It’s just a dark region, which looks
>larger than it really was, because of the strong blurring.
>One can easily verify this by examining the gray levels
>in a cross-section of the region. I tried to explain this
>to Giwer, but it is hopeless. His estimate of their
>size is off by a factor of about 3, which, well, is not
>too bad for him.
And as for the blurring, the shadow of the real, mail chimney of the
Krema defines the limits of resolution. They greatly exceed anything
that could account form more than a 1.3 blurring. And for the record,
you posted no such thing to me.
>E606: I have only studied in detail one of the several photographs. But
>the argument for strong blurring doesn’t explain why the shadow of the
>chimney is quite distinct. I have also read — but have not independently
>confirmed — that the black shapes on the roof are of exactly the same
>shape in two aerial photographs, even though they were taken at different
>times of day. I don’t know what that means, but the shapes in question
>are certainly not the dimensions I just described.
>The dark region is most probably due to a cover – tarpaulin,
>perhaps – on the covers of the chimneys.
>E606: That was among my first reactions. But the *black* values would be
>expected to show some contrast in that case and I recall none.
># Such dimensions also have nothing to do with the 3 x 4
># foot crates of roofing material in the by now famous
># photograph.
>You have no idea and no proof whatsoever that they are
>crates of roofing material. You’re simply inventing this.
>E606: My claim that the three things on the roof are crates is just as
>substantiated as the argument as they are chimneys. I would be the first
>to grant that the photograph in question neither proves nor disproves
>homicidal gassings. That’s not the point. The point is the reliance on
>less than best evidence on the one hand, and strained interpretation on
>the other.
>Let me offer an advice: don’t try to comment on anything
>technical. This seems to be way out of your element.
>E606: The third point is that you do not seem able to conduct an argument
>without personal attacks.
Beyond the math PhD who never posts a calculation, what is clear is
that the aerial photos bear no obvious relation to the one ground
level photo (and its blow up) at Nizkor.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 18:31:40 PDT 1996
Article: 57372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:56:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 13 5:59:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:36:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> The reason is that you are at least honest in professional matters, as
>> is AG. He, on the other hand, drops a subject when he would have to
>> admit the facts are against holohuggers.
>Prove it, Matt!
>So far the only person dropping a subject – or trying to – is you when
>you lose.
The issue is that the descriptions of gassing do not match the facts
of gassing.
Are you ready to discussion Hoesse’s personal observation that when
the pellets were thrown in the people died instantly? Do you
Are you ready to discussion the gelatinous masses of flesh and
clothing in another description?
You have been remarkablly silent in explaining these differences.
>> You appear to be willing to procede to the bitter end in your claims.
>>
>> This is all a show for the lurkers.
>>
>> If you had dropped it, they would not be reading your continued
>> attempts to revive a failed issue by continuing this exchange.
>Ayup! It’s a failed issue – because he won the argument.
In other words, as an engineer, you are agreeing with him that fluid
flow speed at the boundary is the same as in the center. The only way
you can declare he has “won” is by agreeing with that.
>GROW UP, MATT!
Do a better service to your professional knowledge than what you are.
>>
>> Why do you to it?
>Because he’s winning.
With false claims about fluid flow?
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 18:31:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!hustle.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.walltech.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I’m not a revisionist but here’s a thought
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:51:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 3:54:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:15:02 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>Path: News.Uni-Marburg.DE!grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de!zeus.rbi.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de!news.dfn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!uni-paderborn.de!fu-berlin.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:54:57 -0700, Rich Graves
>>>This is true. The consensus is upwards of ten million, 5-6 million of
>>>whom were jews.
>> The consensus of holohuggers that is.
>The “revisionists” are, despite what it may look like in this newsgroup and in
>Mr. Giwer’s mind, such an utterly tiny and unimportant part of the general
>discourse on the holocaust, that it is quite appropriate to speak of a consensus.
Go find a holocaust conference and discuss it there.
This conference is for revisionism. If you do not like it, find
another conference.
And, as a matter of interest, it is one of the few opportunities for
even laymen to rectify the nonsense of some aspect of history simply
by not starting off with the assumption that gassing occurred.
If one can not make history, one can at least correct the view of
history.
And what the holohuggers miss is that demonizing something makes it
attractive. Banning a thing makes it desirable.
You would be better advised to put revision into the class of Dresden
denial and ignore it.
But you have made the subject attractive and have created a market for
it.
And you folks did it as a matter of choice.
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 20:43:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.ccs.queensu.ca!kone!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!news.utdallas.edu!news01.aud.alcatel.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Keren, the latter day Einstein
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:45:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 12 4:47:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
refuses to apply his great math talents explaining the eyewitness
reports of death by HCN in 10-15 minutes and by CO in 15-20 minutes.
Why does he refuse to do this?
From [email protected] Wed Aug 14 20:43:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely “chimneys” – kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:28:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4uhi8c$g[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:31:08 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 12 Aug 1996 06:13:07 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
><< Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
>From: [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:11:12 GMT
>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:
># The problem I have here is twofold: The aerial
>@ photographs show no indication of the Krema roofs
># being covered with dirt.
>The photograph – at least the copy we have – is not
>of high enough quality to determine this. My feeling
>is that some kind of contrast stretching was applied
>to it (histogram equalization, maybe).
Unless you have access to something other than Nizkor, what we have is
as follows. A film negative chosen for the best performance for
aerial surveillance pictures. Then we have the type of development
chosen as best for such pictures. Then we have a halftone image
created for a book. Finally we have a scan by someone of unknow skill
in making a good scan.
If I have to state the obvious, the only way to seriously deal with
the picture is to
1) get the negative
2) get the characteristics of the film
3) make a neutral scan at greater than the grain size.
Without these three it is good only for gross analysis.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 07:50:24 PDT 1996
Article: 57466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:01:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 6:04:26 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:51:00 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:15:09 -0300, Keith Morrison
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >> >Now for the $64 questions.
>> >>
>> >> >1. What happens to calcium carbonate when heated?
>> >>
>> >> >2. What happens to that(1) when placed in water?
>> >>
>> >> >3. What happens to that(2) when exposed to CO2?
> ….[deletia]
>> >>
>> >> Exposure of this relatively inert material to either water or CO2
>> >> results in nothing.
>>
>> >Water and CO2 form an acidic solution.
>>
>> That is not what was stated, fool.
>Read again, Matt.
>>
>> >Bone exposed to an acidic solution will dissolve.
>>
>> >Next stupid comment?
>>
>> Lets get back to your claim that boundary flow rates are the same as
>> the middle of the river flow rates, oh great expert on rivers.
>Boundary flow rate differentials are approriate for pipes, not rivers,
>since the flow disruption is only a few inches to a few feet, depending
>on the velocity.
>Within that boundary region, we would have greater turbulence, resulting
>in more agitation and more “lift”. The result is that :
> YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT THIS ONE ALONE, MATT!
> YOU BLEW IT AGAIN!!!
You are also wrong.
>Matt, your podiatrist must be making a fortune off you!
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 07:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 57467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:05:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 6:08:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:19:03 -0300, Keith Morrison
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:15:09 -0300, Keith Morrison
>> wrote:
>> Lets get back to your claim that boundary flow rates are the same as
>> the middle of the river flow rates, oh great expert on rivers.
>>
>> Are you ready to admit you made that one up out of whole cloth just to
>> convince the lurkers?
>Convince them of what? That you are are a lying jerk?
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>Furthermore, you sanctimonious twit, I said *immediately* after you pointed
>out that boundary effects would occur that you are correct. I also made the
>point that my calculations were for an idealized Vistula that may or may not
>conform to the real thing but would at least give one some basis to form
>an opinion.
You presented no calculations, you presented a quotation from someone
else.
>In any event you are throwing up a canard and everyone knows it. You scream
>about boundary effects and have no concept about how sediment is moved.
>Now what was it I originally stated? Ah yes, here it is…
>>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>From [email protected] Sun Aug 4 21:51:42 PDT 1996
>>You see, what Matt thinks (I believe) is that sediments have to be actually picked
>>up to be moved downstream. This is false. Rocks can be rolled along the bottom,
>>slowly but surely.
>You never responded to that, bonehead. You just kept screaming about “boundary
>effects” as if those were the magic words that could hide the fact that you
>once again have shifted your mouth into gear without engaging the clutch in
>the brain.
>To reiterate: sediment picked by water is *ONE* way it can be moved downstream.
>Tell you what, why don’t you go to Hopewell Cape in New Brunswick sometime.
>Take a look at the famous flower pot rocks sometime. Notice that they are
>formed of conglomerate and the size of the peddles and cobbles that make it
>up. Then consider the fact those pebbles and cobbles originated about
>forty kilometers or more from where they were deposited.
>Then get back to me.
This is not where you gave a quotation of a speed for the water and
claimed it was a slow moving river.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 07:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 57491 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:37:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u1duj$1n[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:39:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:27:09 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:48:43 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Actually, Giwer, it’s so the idiotic deniers can see the real thing.
>>>It takes time and volunteers to type this stuff up. There is a great
>>>amount of material to deal with.
>>
>> Volunteers? It would be better to pay them so they would evaluate
>>what they put on it. But it is a great source of material, as I said.
>>
>Volunteers, yes. It would be better to pay them. Why don’t you send us
>a donation to that end?
Then they could say they are only following orders.
>>>> It gives the impression to their “contributors” that
>>
>>>No, they are contributors without te quotes.
>>
>> And of course, copyright be damned. I do find it interesting that so
>>many people work together to violate so many copyrights.
>>
>Contributors and copyright are two different issues. Make one or the
>other, Mr. Giwer.
Contributors voluntarily PLAN and AGREE to violate copyrights.
I think you know the magic word here.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:36 PDT 1996
Article: 57533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:25:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 6:28:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:59:13 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Does “a while” mean the time it will take to reach the North Sea or
>> wherever the hell it empties?
>No – it would stay in motion because the water is in motion. I was
>talking about the fact that the stuff does float for a while.
So it all settled out a short distance down stream. And the Russians
didn’t even bother to look for it.
>> >> Want to get back to fluid flow near the banks and bottom? No? I am
>> >> not surprised, fool.
>>
>> >Why should he get back to an argument that he’s already won?
>>
>> You either
>>
>> a) did not read what he wrote
>>
>> or
>>
>> b) know nothing of fluid flow through channels.
>>
>> I presume it is the former.
>Wrong on both counts. Fluid flow thru channels has 2 degenerate points.
>1. The low end, where conditions depend on fluid viscosity.
>2. The high end, where the size of the channel is far larger than the
>size for which the equations hold.
>IOW – rivers are above the high end.
>Boundary turbulence would actually mitigate against your rather flippant
>response.
Anything that sits on the boundary doesn’t care. Ashes in such
quantities become the new boudardy, the new bottom and or bank with
new mud and organic matter settling over them.
And what is still of interest is whether there was a bridge to dump
them off of or they were just shoveled in at the banks.
And then there are still the ashes in the lakes which have no flow at
all.
>Be a tad more carefull, Matt. I don’t think that Keith wants to appear
>as an intellectual bully and that’s what you’re making him look like.
I did not say he was. I have noted only that, like so many others who
know better, they will misrepresent what they know to support any
eyewitness story that comes along no matter how absurd.
=====
And to think this all started with my observation that no one had ever
even looked for the ashes much less found them. From my point of view
it appears that the objective of all of this digression into unrelated
matters is only to be able to draw attention away from what I first
said.
If this were a normal discussion, my statement would have simply been
accepted as true and we could have gotten on with the discussion.
But this has gone on so long that I have taken the time to post the
volume and weight and the expected densities in certain places, we
have gotten into river flow which indicates they were still there at
A-B when the Russians chose not to look for them.
And in all of this, the closest we have had to a rebuttal is one
recounting of one search many years later around Birkenau that claims
to have recovered from fragments of bone, flesh and hair MANY YEARS
LATER. The inclusion of finding flesh makes this sound like another
KGB fabrication.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:37 PDT 1996
Article: 57535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:07:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 203
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 12:10:31 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:24 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>> Those claims, including their very existance, are up to little boy
>>>>Danny to establish.
>>
>>>You claim to be a “revisionist.” So, since the majority of the
>>>historical record that concerns these columns discusses perferated
>>>metal or mesh, I believe,
>>
>> You believe in error.
>How so? Why don’t you address the point that is being made here?
You are claiming that one is majority, excluding repetitions of that
one, that is.
>> Not books written by nonhistorians but the gosh
>>awful for real eyewitness testimony itself.
>>
>What non-historians?
Most all of them. Wiesel is not. Wiesenthal is not. Pressac is not.
And one of your favorites (drawing a blank here) was a professor of
Public Law or some such until he was endowed with a chair in history
for his efforts in creating an intellectual framework for what are
otherwise no more than camp rumors.
It doesn’t matter much if one is or isn’t an
>historian. One has to substantiate one’s claims in order for them to
>be valid. You folks are making statements with no substantiation. If
>you have a problem with Danny’s work or someone else’s, the burden is
>still on you.
And of course my point is that not even an historian can substantiate
the claims made for the manner in which ZB was supposed to have acted.
He can only report what he has been told.
>>it is up to you to provide documentation
>>>that proves that accepted history is wrong. That’s the job of true
>>>historical revisionists. Dany has established his points more times
>>>than I can count.
>>
>> I have seen the drawing he proposes was one of them on Nizkor.
>Huh?
Yes, there is a drawing of the wire mess cage for this ZB dropping.
Take a look at it. It should be “easy” to find.
>> That
>>is what resulted in my slapstick film scene where they are lowered in
>>and then push right back out. Perhaps Charlie Chaplin as the SS man.
>>
>Chaplin has done this. In fact he did a movie called _The Great
>Dictator_. Ever watch it?
Yes but he did not do the wire mesh cage routine.
>> It was then he invented a way to mounted it to the floor which is not
>>on the drawing, in other words, it is only in his imagination.
>This wasn’t Danny, but one of the deniers. Methinks you have mixed up
>the denials.
Take a look for the drawing on Nizkor. Unless they have deleted it by
now to save embarrassment.
>> Tben
>>someone else came in and tried to pretend that dynamite would destroy
>>the floor side fasteners but could not explain the lack of mounting
>>points on the drawing.
>So? Why couldn’t it?
Because it does not work that way. Do you not remember my example of
the conclusive evidence of the bombing of Lockerbie was find a piece
of the radio that contained the plastic?
The foundation and 10-15 feet of the tower that held the first A bomb
are still in existance. They survived a 40,000,000 lt TNT equivalent
blast. What do you thing a couple pounds of it can do?
>I understand the floor is covered with earth.
Go look at the picture of it today that is on Nizkor and get back to
me.
>None of the testimony or the drawings support what the deniers claim.
That was never the point. The point was always that they do not
support what the holohuggers claim.
>Hence there isn’t enough reason to investigate beyond what we have
>now.
Any prosecutor has an obligation to establish that a crime in fact was
committed. Any court has the obligation to demand such information.
This is not different from the rumor that George Bush flew in a
Blackbird to Rota, drove to Paris, tole the Ayatollah to hold the
hostages until after the election and flew back.
Gassings, like the October Surprise or Whitewater, is something that
partisans want to believe, therefore it makes sense to them.
>> And then Danny-boy went to calling “nazi-boy” for lack of coherency in
>>his fabrication.
>This seems to be an accurate statement and an accurate description of
>Moran’s claims.
It may or may not apply to anyone else. It does apply to Danny-boy.
>>>This quote from you: “It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to
>>>deal with the sulphuric acid claim. I warned the wrong person it
>>>seems” has what to do with the construction of the columns?
>>
>> You will note his answer is “why bother?” That makes it clear he has
>>to idea of the properties of what he is talking about yet pretends to
>>talk about it. His entire knowledge appears to be based upon his
>>faith in eyewitnesses.
>You have something better than those who built the things and the
>blueprint history?
I have seen what is available in drawing form and it is at best an
artist’s conception. If you know of any blueprints, provide the URL.
As for the statements of those who built them, I have seem much posted
here regarding them but none that are from those who built or designed
them. And do not make an old mistake, this is about gas chambers by
gas chamber designers. It has nothing to do with the Kremas.
>>>You seem to be the evasive one in this thread. How come?
>>
>> It is not a matter of evasion, if you read everything you have quoted.
>>You will also note he dismisses the use of sulphuric acid as ZB was
>>common and plentiful. Battery acid was also common.
>Throwing acid on people wasn’t something they considered as practical
>to kill 1000s in one room.
If you are not going to read the thread then do not jump in. The
thread contains the suggestion that potassium cyanide and sulphuric
acid could have been used. The response was that ZB was plentiful
while the acid was not. I simply pointed out that the acid was
plentiful. And in the old days, battery acid was shipped in high
concentration and diluted before use.
>>>> And tbey are very nonsensical and very little boy like.
>>
>>>Wow! That quite a challenge to the construction of the pillars. I
>>>don’t think too many folks are impressed. What they are impressed with
>>>is how you continue to evade and attack people personally.
>>
>> The story on the construction of the pillars has changed so many times
>>that there is nothing left to challenge.
>The differences have been in the minds of deniers as they go from
>imagined scenario to imagined scenario.
>> If any one thing is said
>>another version of the construction is brought up.
>Mostly by deniers.
If you were following the thread you would know that neither statement
is not true. As you are following the thread, you have posted what
you know is not true.
>> One of these days
>>the holohuggers may wake up and realize that all of their conflicting
>>constructions can not be true at the same time.
>It’s a shame that ZOG didn’t inform people that they had to be more
>exacting in thier recollections.
What does your ZOG fantasy have to do with this?
>> It is strange that all holohuggers know they existed but at the same
>>time can not agree upon just what existed.
>Think so? This may be a two way street. At least we tend to use what
>we have rather than speculating on fictions.
You have only testimony to the impossible from “eyewitnesses.” Why is
it you care so much?
>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:38 PDT 1996
Article: 57543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:12:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 11:15:40 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:01:29 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> As for deliberate actions, you are refusing to acknowledge that this
>> “testimony” is the only thing the gassing has to go on as there is no
>> physical evidence of gassing.
>How many megabytes does your inbound have available?
>When do you want the physical evidence docs delivered?
>Why do you admit that it would be tantamount to a mail bomb if I send
>it?
>You lost, Matt.
IF you have any such physical evidend THEN you can be the FIRST to
post it publically.
You are not the first person to pretend to having information but
refusing to post it publically.
I had expected better of you.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:38 PDT 1996
Article: 57546 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:08:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:11:32 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2631 alt.revisionism:57546 alt.conspiracy:78141 alt.politics.white-power:39570 soc.culture.jewish:68353 talk.politics.guns:299311 talk.politics.libertarian:112135 talk.abortion:181852 alt.christnet:92151
On 13 Aug 1996 00:47:24 GMT, [email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>In <4un[email protected]> [email protected] (Andrew Mathis) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:09:10 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:08:07 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>>[email protected](Thomas Ander) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>> Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German
>government,
>>>>>>> else she would not have been placed in the concentration
>camp….There
>>>>>>> are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would
>anyone
>>>>>>> think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in
>Germany?….So
>>>>>>> we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish???
>>
>>>>>>What a fascinating thought!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Okay, please respond to this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I had relatives who were babies when they were murdered by the
>Nazis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What crime do you think they committed?
>>
>>>>> Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics
>having
>>>>>been done on the bodies, that sort of thing.
>>
>>>>Having noted yourself, asshole, that the bodies were cremated, how
>>>>could a forensics been done?
>>
>>>>You are SUCH an asshole.
>>
>>> So you agree there is no physical evidence of gassing. Very
>good. At
>>>least you are honest.
>>
>>Don’t put words in my mouth, scumbag.
>>
>>> You are the first holohugger to admit the obvious.
>>
>>> Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of gassing is
>>>happening. 70% say yes.
>>
>>I’d say it’s more like 100%. Once an inmate got to Auschwitz, they
>>knew the gassing was going on because of the constant stench from the
>>crematoria. Word tends to get around. EVERY SINGLE Holocaust
>>narrative I’ve ever read has people in the camps point to the stacks
>>and say, “That’s your only way out of here.”
>>
>>> Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by
>the
>>>government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
>>
>>Care to provide a source, Doctor?
>>
>>> Tell me the difference when you find the time.
>>
>>Me: Human being
>>You: Sick pathetic beast
>>
>>————————————-
>>”Hehvu z’hirin barashut…”
>>”Be wary of the authorities…”
>> Rabban Gamliel
>> Pirkei Avot 2:3<<
>Crematorias leave no stench. Whatever the inmates smelled, it was not
>the burning of flesh; and there is much proof to that effect.
>Tom
You blew it. Now you are going to be called a neo-nazi for speaking
the truth. State of the art crematoria were used. You are correct,
there was no smell.
But then, only a neo-nazi would speak that truth.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:39 PDT 1996
Article: 57547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.nap.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:16:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:19:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2632 alt.revisionism:57547 alt.conspiracy:78142 alt.politics.white-power:39571 soc.culture.jewish:68354 talk.politics.guns:299312 talk.politics.libertarian:112136 talk.abortion:181853 alt.christnet:92152
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:21:19 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:00:34 GMT, [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by the
>> >>government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
>>
>> >Care to provide a source, Doctor?
>>
>> CNN poll also covered by Nightline and 60 Minutes.
>>
>Don’t believe you.
I do not give a damn. What I have recounted is true. Look it up
yourself you unaculturated idiot.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:40 PDT 1996
Article: 57549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:33:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:36:18 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:06:49 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have, many times, and you have commented upon them. Did you really
>> miss the “gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing” detail. You can
>> only play this game so many times.
>>
>Repeating the same three stories 50 times does not make it “many”, Matt.
>Try again.
>>
>> >”All the gassing camps”? What garbage.
>>
>> Tell him, not me.
>>
>No, Matt, you tell us how you know that he said all of the gassing
>camps.
>> >You hear only the survivors. True, most of them were
>> >lucky. The rest aren’t here to speak.
>>
>> It is interested that you claim to hear the dead speak. Yet your
>> story rests solely upon the unregistered, that being a few extra
>> million out of the untraceable 31 million from that war.
>>
>The fact that you side-stepped things here speaks volumes, Matt.
>Try again.
>
>> >This was the end of the war. Some people were lucky. Some
>> >survived. What the hell is your point?
>>
>> Luck explains all of the incredible stories. Just like Alec explained
>> the man gassed six times and live, just luck.
>Hmmmm! I picked up the wrong compound and forgot to dilute the acid.
>Potassium Cyanide in concentrated acid – yet I’m alive.
And every time you did that you watched EVERYONE around you die from
the same. That is very interesting. When did this happen and how?
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57553 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.fast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:19:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 11:22:27 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82917 alt.revisionism:57553
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:36:14 GMT, [email protected] (George
F. Hardy) wrote:
>In article <320fbf8e.1238[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>
>>[email protected] (George F. Hardy) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <320bd0a3.4659[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) says:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>It really doesn’t matter what you write about the manuals. You must
>>>>realize that the manuals are written for using Zyklon as a fumigant
>>>>and not as a murder weapon aimed at humans. Geeze.
>>>
>>>I just looked at the manual with my revolver. It, too, does
>>>not suggest it can be used as a murder weapon.
>>>
>>
>>Ah, but it can. All it takes is a will and a mind to do it. The
>>Germans had a will and to mind to use what they obviously used. It
>>just goes to show that not many people are concerned with using things
>>properly.
>That was my point. Just because the manual does not describe
>a use, that does not mean that such a use is either unusual or
>unanticipated.
And just because an “eyewitness” says something happened does not meat
that it is possible in this reality.
Want to address the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that HCN
causes in your reality?
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:26:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <[email protected]> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 6:29:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:19:53 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:04:19 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >No. One witness said that death in the Treblinka gas
>> >chambers took 15 minutes. Most witnesses give a longer
>> >time.
>>
>> Post them.
>Why waste time reposting that material.
>Will you accept them as Email?
>Can you wait until the weekend, so that I can run it thru the T1?
>Please, Matt, say yes!
>I’ll make sure that they get to you.
>Very sure.
I have had a policy since I joined this conference to only conduct
discussions in public.
If you want to post them, post them in public.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 57565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:29:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:32:31 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2634 alt.revisionism:57565 alt.conspiracy:78152 alt.politics.white-power:39576 soc.culture.jewish:68361 talk.politics.libertarian:112149 alt.christnet:92156
On 13 Aug 1996 15:16:28 GMT, [email protected](Moritz Rothschild)
wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Richard Harrold)
>writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>> Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of gassing is
>>>happening. 70% say yes.
>>
>>> Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by
>the
>>>government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
>>
>>> Tell me the difference when you find the time.
>>
>>
>>Inmates at the camps based their statements on personal observations.
>>
>>The statements made by blacks regarding AIDS (and your numbers are
>>disputable) are based on a conspiracy theory that is nigh impossible
>>to prove.
>>
>>********************************
>>”Beware of the man who knows the answer before he understands the
>question.” Oren Harris
>>
>>Richard A. Harrold <[email protected]>
>>***************************************
>>
>How dare you equate true history with propaganda which was purposely
>propagaded by Farrakchan and his ilk as part of their hatred of
>Jews—Their contention is that Jewish doctors purposly injected Black
>babies, which is ridiculous. My question is why is he not confronted?
>and why is he allowed to spread such vicious lies?
Because there is no law against spreading lies. Blacks, like Jews,
are permitted to spread any lies they want and to spread them as far
as they want.
Screwie Louie spreads his crap with equal protection as does Elie
Wiesel or Simon Wiesenthal. All are lies. And all are protected by
political correctness.
And if you do not think that Jews hate Schwartzes you will have to ask
just who made schwartes a negative term.
Multi-generation Americans such as myself consider this Black-Jew
mutual hatred that has gone on for decades.
They should go solve it among themselves without involving the rest of
he world.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:43 PDT 1996
Article: 57572 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:13:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:15:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:11:10 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> It is good to see you are claiming it floats.
>It ain’t pure, Matt. It is calcined and very porous.
>If fine and poured into water, a large portion wil entrain air and float
>for a while.
Does “a while” mean the time it will take to reach the North Sea or
wherever the hell it empties?
>> Want to get back to fluid flow near the banks and bottom? No? I am
>> not surprised, fool.
>Why should he get back to an argument that he’s already won?
You either
a) did not read what he wrote
or
b) know nothing of fluid flow through channels.
I presume it is the former.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 13:37:44 PDT 1996
Article: 57576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news1.inlink.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:43:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 12:46:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:58:14 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>> [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>
>>> > On the other hand, nazi-boy, you advocate armed bands of vigilantes
>>> >rounding them up and throwing them into concentration camps.
>>
>>> Only those illegal aliens who refuse to leave the country after a respite
>>> of two years would be interned in transitcamps until their deportation can
>>> be arranged.
>>
>> Your program is not for “illegal aliens” but current citzens of Denmark.
>>
>>> And they will not be rounded up by “armed vigilantes” but by
>>> regular police.
>>
>> That is not what you wrote. You wrote that the authorities were to be
>>assited by armed groups of volunteers — vigilantes.
> Nonsens I have never said something like that. Only regular police and
>eventual military were supposed to carry out the plan. What use would
>armed vigilantes do? This would not be a job for amateurs.
Beyond that, YFE is fucking with you. In the US vigilanties means a
group that acts on its own and has nothing to do with volunteers who
would be deputized and under the authority of the sheriff. Volunteers
assisting the authorities are not vigilanties in the US tradition.
And in fact in the US the term vigilantie has a mixed meaning. To
those who love government and expect people to suffer when the
government does not do it job, vigilanties are evil.
In fact they were originally created when the official government was
not doing their job and the people were tired of letting crime happen.
When the government becomes so incompetant or corrupt the people have
every right to do what the people they hired to do can not or will not
do. The only moral decision is between long term changing the
government or solving the immediate problem.
In the absense of police protection it is only the statist who holds
that the people must suffer for that absense.
It is no secret that the high crime neighborhoods in US cities are
high crime because of lack of police protection as a major contributor
to the problem. However it is the statist that would prohibit the
people in these neighborhoods from making up for the lack of police
protection.
That is what separates the feuhrerstadt lovers from the rest of us.
But in their very strange view of the world, they will claim that
denying the exclusive power of the(ir) state means that those who deny
that exclusive power are really after that exclusive power. And
therefore they are the nazis against the statists.
You can see it in the exchanges that went on in the “gas me, don’t
shoot me” exchange. They will do anything to avoid admitting that
that people should have systematically attacked the Nazi government in
all of its forms. They are so ideologically correct that they will
not consider that the normal response to violence by the government
should be violence towards the government.
They live in a very strange world with its own rules independent of
the world people really live in.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 15:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 39581 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:20:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:23:16 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2636 alt.revisionism:57579 alt.conspiracy:78162 alt.politics.white-power:39581 soc.culture.jewish:68371 talk.politics.libertarian:112156 alt.christnet:92167
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:09:16 GMT, [email protected] (Richard Harrold)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Take a random sampling of camp inmates and ask of gassing is
>>happening. 70% say yes.
>> Take a random samply of US Blacks and ask if AIDS was created by the
>>government to exterminate Blacks. 70% say yes.
>> Tell me the difference when you find the time.
>Inmates at the camps based their statements on personal observations.
If they did then they personally observed flesh and clothing producing
gelatinous masses as a result of HCN poisoning. As that can not be
duplicated they obsevred nothing. They were liars and repeated (at
best) what the interrogaters wanted to hear.
>The statements made by blacks regarding AIDS (and your numbers are
>disputable) are based on a conspiracy theory that is nigh impossible
>to prove.
It is also fact.
The only thing that amazes me is that you presume you are aculturated
and do not know this.
So where were you when you were out of the country the last 10 years?
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 18:57:12 PDT 1996
Article: 57603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:08:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 162
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 11:11:10 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:57603 soc.culture.german:82931
On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:40:53 +0100, [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg)
wrote:
>In article
>>In article
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>…
>>> 1) Hm, a big room without furniture but tightly packed with hundreds
>>> of corpses. How long would it take to ventilate this and would there
>>> be pockets with gas among the corpses?
>>
>>well, no, Ole, there wouldn’t.
>How can you be so sure?
Because they say so, of course. It is written that holohuggers are
the only people permitted to what they object to when other post at
High School General Science level or better.
>>The point you were making by quoting Lueftl did not involve any
>>remaining gas, but unevaporated gas still contained in the Zyklon B
>>pellets. That is clearly the only source that could still contain any
>>sizeable amounts of HCN after the gassings.
>>As you could calculate yourself, if you cared to think for just a few
>>minutes – something you are obviously unwilling to do, lest you
>>damage your revisionist point of view – the volume AND mass of HCN
>>which might still be trapped between the corpses is very small, compared
>>to the volume of the entire chamber. So if you were to replace most of
>>the air inside the chamber barring a few pockets of air between the corpses,
>>the amount of HCN remaining would be minuscule.
> How do you know how much gas there would be left. If the bodies fell over
>the still unevaporated HCN there could be quite a bit left. Furthermore
>remember HCN does not have to be inhaled in order to be dangerous. It can
>penetrate through the skin. The American chemical company E I du Pont
>Nemours & Co. (Inc.) which manufactures the product today writes in it’s
>manual p.4:
>”Poison can result from breathing HCN fumes, absorbtion of hydrogen cyanid
>vapor or liquid through the skin, particular the eyes, mucous membranes,
>and feet; and from ingestion of liquid HCN. Because of the possibility of
>skin absorbtion of HCN fumes, air monitoring for HCN is required even when
>wearing an air mask.
> The US Departement of Labor (OSHA) has ruled that an employee’s exposure
>to HCN in any 8-hour workshift of a 40-hour week shall not exceeded a time-
>weighted average of 10 ppm HCN (10 mg/m3). It also cautions that since
>hydrogen cyanide may penetrate the skin, control of vapor inhalation alone
>may not be sufficient to prevent absorbtion of an excessive dose.
And if nothing else, there is HCN in the lungs that is going to come
out as the bodies are moved around. Certainly it on the skin from
when the bodies stopped metabolizing it. In all the body hair also.
>>Are we grasping at straws already, Mr. Kreiberg?
>>> 2) In the manual of DEGESH p.17 you can read the following:
>>
>>> “As a rule, it is not necessary to use fans or forced ventilation in airing
>>> fumigated rooms. Natural drafts remove the gas very rapidly [but at least for
>>> 10 hours, p.21], i.e. as soon as the windows and doors of the rooms are
>>> opened and all other openings unsealed. Damp, cool and calm weather
>>> conditions, too tightly stored commodities, many fittings with large surface
>>> areas require prolonged airing, whereas warm and dry weather conditions,
>>> relatively empty rooms need shorter airing. Wherever possible, especially
>>> in dwellings and work-rooms, ventilation can be speeded up by heating rooms,
>>> beating clothes, bed clothes, etc., and spreading out commodities, but
>>> naturally only after rooms can be re-entered. This work should only be
>>> carried out by the fumigation personnel or under their close supervision.”
>>
>>Yeah, well, fine – and what does that show?
> It shows how difficult it is to work with HCN, and why it is not possible
>to kill and remove so many people in such a short time as claimed in the
>holoacaust litterature. I do not exclude the possibility that some people
>may have been killed in this manner. It is only the number and the procedure
>I question.
However, you will notice what they do mention is open material, porous
if you will such as mattresses than can hold it inside.
On the other hand, you will notice the use of heated air as a standard
method of airing out. Not only is there no evidence of a fan there is
no evidence of a method of heating the air for ventilation.
>>It shows that you are indeed
>>full of it, when you quote gassing manuals pertaining to inhabited, furnished
>>regular living quarters and attempt to draw conclusions from them with
>>respect to the conditions inside gas chambers. The passage you quote here
>>corroborates one of the counter arguments against your estimates of
>>ventilation time needed to cleanse the gas chambers of HCN. The more
>>furniture and “fittings” there are, the longer the areation has to last.
>But a room full of corpses may cause the same problem as a room full of
>furniture. According to the holocaust litterature the victims were tightly
>crowded in the rooms. Hundreds and sometimes even thousands were herded into
>the small rooms. In Auschwitz museum two rooms are shown as alleged
>gaschambers. One is around 210m2 and the other around 65m2.
LK I was 232 m^2.
And the number of bodies claimed, although ridiculously high, would
certainly trap some amount of the gas. Handling the bodies mean
immediate skin contact with the stuff.
>>Despite that, the only measure to speed it up that the manual recommends
>>is to throw open the doors and windows, not to use portable blowers.
>>
>>So, when considering the bare walled gas chambers with their ventilation
>>systems you could, if you weren’t so firmly attached to your holocaust
>>denial, realize that your estimate of ventilation times needed is wrong
>>and that quoting the fumigation manual is of no relevance to the gassings
>>of humans in the Auschwitz gas chambers.
> It is still disputed whether there were a ventilation systems in the alleged
>gaschambers. If you inspect those gaschambers on display in e.g. Auschwitz
>and other camps it is impossible to detect any sign that ventillation systems
>have been installed. If there were ventillation systems that were able to
>rapidly remove all the gas, where to would it be led out? Just out into the
>open air in the camp area or what? Do you by the way remember the accident
>in Bhopal in India where humans and animals were killed by poisonous gas
>several kilometers from the chemical plant from where it has been released?
According to the popular exposition here, the exhaust from LK I was at
about eye level from the “little chimneys” if there was any exhaust
and if there were any chimneys of any size. In other words, downwind
was lethal for some distance depending upon many factors.
>>Are you finally going to admit that your estimates are wrong and that
>>the manual has got little relevance for the gas chambers themselves?
>>Or will we be treated to another irrelevant quotation, another
>>revisionist web-site or another piece of literature, which you don’t
>>even care to summarize?
>Hey what about this document? Is that irrelevant too?
>NO NI-9912 from the Office of Chief counsel for war crimes [at Nuremberg
>Trial]:
>”Directive for the use of prussic acid (zyklon) for the destruction of
>vermin (disinfestation)”
>XI. Airing
>The airing is connected with the greatest danger for those participating
>and others. Therefore, it must be carried out particular carefully and a
>gas mask should always be worn.
>…
>12. The Airing should continue for at least 20 hours.
>XIV. Final Release
>1. Under no circumstances less than 21 hours after the airing was started.
>Issued by the Health Institution
>of the
>Protectorate of the Bohemia and Moravia in Prague.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 18:57:12 PDT 1996
Article: 57614 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: to the anti-gassing lurkers
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:02:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 3:05:02 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
The holohuggers are under control.
Of course if you post they are going to attack you.
You need not do more than post your opinion.
If you feel uncomfortable doing that email me and I will put you in
touch with many people who will email you sympathetically. You are
not alone. I even have some mailing lists that I can put you on.
Despite the massive crap you see here, there is another side of it
that does not attack a politically incorrect position on the matter.
There are many of is.
From [email protected] Thu Aug 15 18:57:13 PDT 1996
Article: 57631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!tera.mcom.com!news.Stanford.EDU!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report — Zyklon B
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:50:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4u7v5l$f[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 12:53:29 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:39 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:51:58 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>># Nizkor > Ftp > camps > “majdanek .004”. A Soviet report
>>># states they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO.
>>
>>>True, and I believe this gas bottle is still in Maidanek.
>>>Bottled CO was also used for some time in Belzec, but
>>>it was obviously easier to use an engine than to transport
>>>these large, heavy bottles, in great quantities, to the
>>>death camps.
>>
>> And the bottles of HCN identified as ZB?
>>
>Cans, dummy of Zyklon-B. Stay with the show, Mr. Giwer.
The post says, BOTTLE, dumnshit. Can you not read?
>Mike Curtis E-mail [email protected]
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:07 PDT 1996
Article: 57636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Jews Want To Censor The Department Of Justice
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:02:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:05:22 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2642 alt.revisionism:57636 alt.conspiracy:78236 alt.politics.white-power:39603 alt.flame:22132
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:24:37 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> Jews control the National Security Agency, and the Central Intelligence
>> Agency. Noam Chomsky is correct in his judgements of the government and
>> economics, except for his “forgetting” that Jews control everything.
>> John Loftus is correct in his judgements of the intelligence agencies,
>> except the enemy is Jews not Anti-Semites.
>You know, my father is a psychiatrist, Mr. Anon, and they have a name for
>people like you:
>
>Delusional Paranoiacs.
>
>You might consider upping your medication, or adjusting the collander and
>tin foil on your head.
Their is a name for psychiatrists. That name is quacks. Not one
recorded cured by psychotherapy. Only by drugs and brain damage from
electrical and chemical trauma.
No cures and still battling the Scientologists at their own level.
But of course if you wish to claim otherwise, post the evidence.
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:08 PDT 1996
Article: 57655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:09:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 2:12:15 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 13 Aug 1996 04:30:32 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected](Thomas Ander) writes:
>
>> Crematorias leave no stench. Whatever the inmates smelled, it was not
>> the burning of flesh; and there is much proof to that effect.
>> Tom
> I know lots of people who have a different opinion. They live next to
>a crematorium.
Names, addresses and phone numbers so that your claim can be verified.
Without same, you are lying.
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:09 PDT 1996
Article: 57677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony From Barbie Trial
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:54:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 14 2:57:23 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:41:41 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>Chuck Ferree
>>Chuck Ferree writes:
>>Elias Nahmias, testified that he was sent to Auschwitz and other Nazi
>>camps.
>>”As soon as we got to Auschwitz, the children were sent to the gas
>>chamber. But first we had to get out of our cars. If you have seen a
>>seal hunt, you know what it was like.They literally bludgeoned us out,
>>and we had to drag the corpses out as well. Then they prodded us in
>>line with the handle of a pickaxe…I was lucky enough to be the last
>>one to be left. They spared me, only me. The rest of the convoy was
>>murdered that very same day. It’s incredible. I don’t even know how I
>>can utter such things, they are so far beyound human understanding…
> —————————-
>>”I would like to add one more thing. Often I hear the most disgusting
>>things. People who say gas chambers never existed. In Dachau, the
>>crematory ovens worked like a factory; as efficiently and with as
>>little feeling.. When I was there, at least two thousand people were
>>gassed and then burnt every day.
> —————————-
>Dachau was in Germany.
> Simon Wiesenthal Center > “Responses to Revisionist Arguments”
>No.12.
> “Didn’t Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
>extermination camps in Germany?”
> Simon Wiesenthal answer:
> “The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps
>on their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all
>were death camps because the death of inmates, …
> Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
>(Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and
>Chelmno), were especially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of
>thousands of victims each (millions altogether). All the camps were
>located in Poland …”, – which means ‘No’, there were no
>extermination camps in Germany.
> Okay Chuck, it’s your turn.
Now you are picking an advance Altzheimer case who, as a fighter
pilot, liberated a camp.
He has also posted regarding US atrocities in murdering the SS and has
claimed person responsibility (on the ground) for stopping an officer
>from stopping the atrocity.
He apparently is so far gone that he believes his answers to “what did
you do in the war, grandpa?” questions.
The amusing this is that he expects us to swallow his nonsense.
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:13:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4ueh[email protected]> <4ufq6g$[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 15 3:16:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:02:57 -0400, Alec Grynspan
wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Sorry, nerfbrain, I have forgotten more about this than any riverine
>> fluid flow “expert” will ever know. Give it up. You have not the
>> slighest idea what is going on in the first place.
>Matt, so far you’ve shown that you know less than can be written on the
>back of a postage stamp.
>In War Caps!
>Grow up!
You are degenerating as you post. Why?
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor’s BELZEC – more goofy stuff
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:47:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:49:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
On 09 Aug 96 06:23:18, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff] [Thu 08 Aug 96 10:04][Fri 09 Aug 96
>01:54][0]*>
> tn> I would agree that if it was just one discrepancy in
> tn> Holocaust eyewitness testimony there wouldn’t be much to go on.
> tn> But when there is scores, even hundreds, we have to start to
> tn> ‘look sideways’.
>Yes, you definitely do that, alright!
>BTW – SOP in any investigation. If all of the witnesses tell the
>same story, expect collusion. If some tell exactly the same story,
>expect collusion. he more witnesses, the more discrepancies and
>contradictions.
>Ask any cop with any real experience.
>IOW – if only one exact story is told, the Holocaust is a hoax.
>But you knew that.
That is my line.
But in any event, what do the police conclude when they tell
impossible stories?
>++GMAIL 1.3++ I know that you’re trying. Very trying.
>–
>|Fidonet: Alec Grynspan 1:2424/224
>|Internet: [email protected]
From [email protected] Fri Aug 16 07:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57689 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net