Giwer Matt, 3-1996 – p3

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 12:22:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50223 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:11:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:55:28 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># As you know, non-scientist, the mentions of the time
># support 6-12 hour outgassing as you have posted.

>As you know, non-employed,

I prefer, of independent means, if you don’t mind youngster.

the German source explicitly
>says that after an hour, or at most two, there was no
>detectable residue of HCN in the Zyklon carrier. And
>this, at a very low temperature.

You may post that again if you wish.

>So, you erred in your estimation of the outgassing
>time, by a factor of 16. See why you can’t get a job?
>Who would hire a klutz like you?

Do you see why you are a) stuck in a university and b) in a world which
considered Baysian statistics a running joke?

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 12:22:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50224 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:02:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:04:32 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Get with the program, boy. His altars have been found,
># many of them. They are adorned with horns.

>Where? What? When? Maybe these were just oddly shaped
>tables? Remember the gas chamber – morgue analogy? Can you
>PROVE these were altars?

They might be what you suggest but they are also pointed out by
aercheologists as horns and taken to mean they were the sacrificial
altars of Yahweh god as opposed to the sacrificial instruments to the
other Israelite gods.

And again, I do not claim proof, only evidence. Aercheological evidence
is worth about what you pay for it.

But I leave it up to you. If they were not the alters (with blood
grooves and all the rest) just what which god were they altars to? They
match all blood sacrifice altars found in the region in essential
charactistics. And they are found in the foundations of large builds
that would correspond to all other temples in the region.

The region in this case being the Near East, Israel being a small to
negligable part of it. Were it not for Christianity, the history of
Israel would be on a par with the Hittites, minor players in world
events.

># As I have been told, do your own research. You might as
># Alec where to start.

>No go. You’re claiming a genocide by the early Israelites
>took place? You have to prove this, according to *your*
>standards of proof, that *you* demand for the Holocaust.

I claim only evidence. Start with the Book of Joshua.

>Otherwise, it will be clear you’re a bloody coward and that
>you apply a double standard when judging historical events.

>You’re unemployed. You got lots of time. Get a move-on,
>chump, and show us the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

The physical evidence is so well known it has been incorporated into a
TV series.

It is not amazing that you deny knowing of it.

It is only amazing if you really do not know of it.

From [email protected]etcom.com Sun Jul 14 13:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50240 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:47:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
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On 13 Jul 1996 08:01 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:27:45 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>## Get a job, punk. No nazihugger here willing to give this
>>>## person a job? The punk had to retire at the age of 46,
>>
>>># Chose to, youngster.
>>>#
>>># There was not much call for clever ways to kill Russians.
>>
>>>Force them to read all your articles? Nah, too cruel I guess.
>>
>>>So why did you retire? Your text above is self-contradicting.
>>
>> If you must pry, there was no longer much call for the fun parts of the
>>job, plenty of the boring stuff like logistics and maintenance, and I
>>did not have to work. So why bother?
>>
>> There are always other things to do, like starting up a website server
>>in a few months, with a T1 line, not a pissant thing like Nizkor uses.

> Troll.

Excuse me. It is hard to find people these days who think a 28.8
connection on a 25 MHz machine is impressive. It is good to see you are
one of them.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 14:50:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50248 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:42:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 13 Jul 1996 08:14 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 12 Jul 1996 09:39 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>>>> For those who happen to follow US partisan politics there is an obvious
>>>>and clear example that has been running for the couple weeks.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Dole said that he did not think cigarettes habit forming only
>>>>addictive.
>>
>>> This is not what he said.
>>
>>>> Now clearly addiction means that tolerance level increases quickly and
>>>>the dosage increases to obtain the same effect. The common example is
>>>>opium and it derivatives.
>>
>>> This is not a good definition of addiction.
>>
>>>> Yet clearly the term addictive in the US has come to have no meaning and
>>>>that any substance (substance only) that is hard to stop using must be
>>>>called addictive. Addictive means clearly, hard to stop using.
>>
>>> No, that is what habit forming means. Addiction means a physical
>>> dependence on the substance. And nicotine (in cigarettes) is
>>> addictive.
>>
>> People develop a physical dependence upon the endorphins released by the
>>feelings of love.
>>
>> Yet we know there are people who can walk away from both love and
>>cigarettes, they are rare but they exist.
>>
>> And before you jump into the “dangers” reconsider the Romeo and Juliet
>>scenario of the life threatening dangers of love.

> Nice try at changing the subject.

The subject was the general form of the issue as in why care about
whatever it is, habit forming or addictive. TV is habit forming.
Waking up at a certain time on weekdays is habit forming. The real
issue is why care?

> The AMA says that cigarettes are addictive. If you have medical
> evidence to contradict them, go ahead and present it. I doubt many
> will accept Shakespeare as legitimate medical evidence.

If you have never heard of suicide over a lost love then you are advised
to start with Shakespeare. If you have never heard of murder over same,
start with the same source. Those are real dangers.

> And I note that you do not dispute my assertion that you got the Bob
> Dole quotes wrong. Therefore, yur original point is not moot.

His first statement that started this was that some people can walk away
>from cigarettes without concern. That is of course true.

Many more could do so if they can reject the public perception that it
is difficult to quit just as the greatest problem for many heavy
drinkers is getting over the public perception that there is a problem
with stopping drinking.

Popular belief is the cause of many strange things, such as in some
cultures “pointing the bone” really does cause people to die.

Dole is old enough and experienced enough in public perception to know
how ideas come to be true and take on a power of their own. The
children in the White House do not.

It is no different from how the gassing became true. World history is
littered with such stories as is recent history. Remember those
bungling burglars at Watergate? There was never any tape on any door
that tipped off anyone.

Remember the 80s? Of course not. In 1987 the most common story about
tax reform was of the “rich” swearing to become Democrats because of
their new tax bill under the Reagan tax overhaul. But as you “know”
today the rich had their taxes cut by that overhaul.

Do you remember the Viper Militia? Turns out they never called
themselves even a militia and the “viper” was made up by the infiltrator
who supplied the explosives after encouraging their use.

It is all a matter of perception becoming accepted reality. You are too
young to have seen it happen enough to believe it is possible. Much
less are you old enough to see how such myths become defining realities
upon human behavior, even to the point of self induced death.

Some day you will learn what the world is really like. Cigarette
condemnation of a cigar loving President is one of them. But remember,
he did not inhale.

You may learn some day but I doubt you will remember me at that age. It
is unfortunate that you can not learn it now.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 15:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50260 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:08:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:22:54 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

># A great problem with the orthodox gas chamber story and
># alleged history is that is has not been exposed to the rigors
># of academic examination and review.

>This is a totally ridiculous claim. Prove it, if you can.

>There have been a rather large number of historians who
>studied the Holocaust. You’re just throwing words around,
>which have no meaning and no relation whatsoever to the
>truth. So, do not whine when people refer to “revisionists”
>as Nazi propagandists. When you lie, and refuse to back your
>lies, people will call you that. It’s really simple.

It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
fields that are not their specialty. Aercheologists and anthropologists
and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
specialists all the time.

On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims. Do you have a name
and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?

Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare. How about experts
on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50286 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:17:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:09:00 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have no problem if you wish to denounce the writings of the
>> Hebrews/Israelites as total fantasy and thus denounce any and all gods
>> you folks have been stupid enough to follow for so long.

>Then renounce your American citizenship, because the US was founded on
>those self-same myths.

Which ones? You mean the “we hold these truths self evident” line?
That was the Declaration Of Independence.

This country is founded on the Constitution.

The first government for the colonies was based upon the Articles
of Confederation established on15 Nov 1777. It has no mention of any
god.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer5/artconfd.html if you are
curious.

Another Canadian who thinks he knows something about the US. The place
crawls with them.

>You seem unable to read what others write and have again done a ground
>shift. Don’t move to California, Matt.

>Repeating:

>>
>> >No – you are talking about the mythology that is part of a religion
>> >known as Hebraism and is the ancestor of several major religions.
>>
>> >Judaism has *NO* recorded acts of genocide – other than the Holocaust
>> >against us.

>Please stick to the thread.

You are responding to yourself.

>You have yet to show the HEBREWS as having performed any genocide. When
>the Big Kahuna gives the order – you become his extension. You are not a
>free agent and cannot be held responsible for *HIS* actions thru you.

It is a strange people who would blame a god for such inhuman acts. It
is strange why anyone would buy it.

>Therefore you can only claim that THE SAME GOD THAT WAS USED AS
>JUSTIFICATION FOR THE TAKING OF NORTH AMERICA was also responsible for
>knocking off the folks that he decided to knock off – or you can claim
>that it is just the typical exaggeration of the cultures of the time.

Not that I am aware of. Perhaps you can demonstrate the US was a
theocracy at some point and took political guidance from some god or
other. It will be an interesting exercise for you.

>If you want the claim of genocide, then you contradict your claims as to
>the existence of Moses.

Moses was not involved in the means of conquest. That started with
Joshua.

>You are switching logic in mid-stream, a dangerous sign and a symptom of
>loss of reasoning faculties.

You need to read your “bible” a bit more frequently.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50300 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben embraces Nazi anit-Semitism
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:50:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 12 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/germany/farben farben.008
>Last-modified: 1993/06/10

A hiding behind a site name idiot posts.

Well done, coward.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50317 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH shut down
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:56:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:54:10 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> But there is no way to deal with mutually incompatible laws across the
>> border. The Canadians laws here are those.

>Since laws of other nations have no effects outside their borders, I trust you
>will immediately call your representatives and denounce the Helms-Burton Bill
>which tries to extend US law to other countries, in effect allowing the US
>government to decide what citizens of other nations can and cannot do?

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]

It has always been my understanding that countries have a right to
control entry. Has that changed?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50340 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:59:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 14 Jul 1996 08:38:40 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>>> Excuse me. It is hard to find people these days who think a 28.8
>>>connection on a 25 MHz machine is impressive. It is good to see you are
>>>one of them.

>> Another troll. Yawn.

>Indeed… Mr. Giwer missed several machines… but he knew that. Both
>Mr. Giwer and Mr. Schoedel complained about slow access to Nizkor, and
>we initiated immediate steps to improve the situation.

>And, although access has improved with the addition of our first web
>mirror, we knew that Mr. Giwer and Mr. Schoedel would not be satisfied.
>For that reason, we have taken further steps to deal with their complaints.
>The nature of our response will become clear in due course, and we are
>quite certain that Mr. Giwer will find access much improved.

>Stay tuned 🙂

You mean you are going to get your name off of the (US) milnet list?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:09 PDT 1996
Article: 50353 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:54:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On 13 Jul 1996 18:56:48 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Just tell me where you stand on the matter and I will answer your
>: questions.
>:
>: Do you believe it is all BS and these Jews have been bemoaning their
>: suffering over nothing?
>:
>: Or do you believe it is real and in fact they did invent genocide?

>False choice. I believe most of the stories in the old testament
>are mythical or semi-mythical. This is not the same thing as “BS”.

Other than BS what are myths?

Want to go into that crap that elevates storytellers are mystical read
the archetypes nonsense?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50355 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:11:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>> the cold flor but I don’t think that they might have been long
>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>>
>>What is the equilibrium vapor pressure of HCN at say 0 C? What is the
>>lethal concentration of HCN?
>>
>>
>>T (C) Torr
>>
>>-20 100
>>0 260
>>10 410
>>20 610
>>30 900
>>
>>From DuPont’s “Hydrogen Cyanide: Uses, Storage, and Handling”
>>
>>260 Torr = 340,000 ppm. 300 ppm is rapidly fatal.
>>
>>So the vapor pressure of the absorbed liquid is well above lethal
>>concentrations even at very cold temperature. As far as the _rate_ of
>>evaporation goes, see Peters.

> And that is without even discussing the silly notion that a colder
>body must be in direct contact with a warmer body in order to be warmed by
>it.

> Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ….

What was there to correct. It is not Zyklon B. It has no direct
relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
effect upon evaporation.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50356 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:25:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 2:27:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 11:36:28 GMT, [email protected] (Howard
Eisenberger) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) writes:
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>> that is about it) content.

>US legal content? In other words, content-based “censorship”.
>What about Free Speech?

Meaning that the only non-questionable item not accepted is kiddie porn.
But I will not be soliciting any form of sex site under the basic terms.
Too many hits.

Kiddie porn is about all we have left in the US that is dubious in its
free speech nature as it has it presumption that the involvement of
juveniles was a crime itself. The other side says that a film of a
convenience store robbery is a film of a crime and is protected.

I am with the latter position. But the state of the law at this point
almost assumes a conspiracy is mandatory. The law will most likely come
around to my point of view one of these years.

As to any criminal postings (threatening life of others, the clear
stuff), I would be the last to take them down. The longer they are up
the better they are as evidence in a trial.

I will cooperate with any criminal investigation. But as long as
payment is made anyone is on line.

So when can I expect your check?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:44:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 13 8:46:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 15:11:01 GMT, Nele Abels
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>When you log on to Nizkor next time, you will note they have mastered
>>the statement and have stolen an animated GIF from
>>some place.

>> It is all quite impressive what they have mastered in a year.
>> Who knows what the next year will bring.

>This remark being a bit off topic in a newsgroup on a historical
>question, let’s try to reformulate it a bit:

>When you read Mr. Giwer’s posts in alt.revisionism, you will note that
>he still has not mastered using historical terms in their precise
>meaning, giving precise annotations in the rare cases he uses quotations,
>reading texts thoroughly, and understanding their meaning – all the basic
>skills needed for commenting on a historical subject.

> It is all quite impressive that he has not mastered these little
> feats in all his years of master-historianship and in spite of
> his IQ163. We all know perfectly well that the next year will bring
> no change.
>

>Nele

I have a better idea for those who are ashamed of their own name. Come
back on this conference with a real name and a real email address.
Until then, I do not deal with cowards.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50370 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: in the manner of suiing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:23:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]x-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:25:22 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
the Nizkor site. Two of them are “co-webmasters” but certainly it is
possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.

They should all be named.

The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
of interest to most any “contributor.” Of course if they can prove they
did not contribute to the defamation …

But then, they were only following orders.

But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
evidence.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: public presentation
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:34:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 4:36:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Should any of us have the public exposure to talk about the substance of
gassing I would like to suggest a theme.

FORGET that there is contention on the matter.

Speak only as though is as much a matter of ancient history as death by
steaming.

Treat it like only the terminally naive who have not kept up on matters
still believe in this nonsense.

In other words, threat the refutation of holohugger claims as an equal
gospel to the holohugger claims.

Your opposition will assume the holohugger position is true.

Practice a condescending tone and expression. “You still believe that?”
with the proper inflection can do wonders.

NEVER indulge in details. Continue to look at the interviewer as though
he is an idiot or came out of a time machine from 1945.

Speak only with the presumption that the matter has been resolved
against gassing.

Never debate, only attack.

Good enough for openers?

If not add to these guidelines and someone start a FAQ on the matter.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:29:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:31:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 15:01:07 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> This is an interesting discovery, that he is being sued along with his
>> Canadian and US donation acceptors and the two co-webmasters.
>>
>> After all, what is defamation of character all about?

> Why ask? I’m sure the lawyer you consulted told you that when he
>threw you out of his office.

> –YFE

If there was ever any message that confirmed my suspicion that you are
willing to lie about the law to promote Israelites this was it. Not to
say there were not many previous messages that did so but this is the
defining lie.

There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to McVay’s
actionable site. It is clearly racketeering under US law.

But you know that.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben Compensation Sought
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:34:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:36:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: pub/orgs/german/farben.ig farben.010
>Last-Modified: 1995/06/21

> Wartime slave workers seek cash from German firms

It appears now that someone who is able to post from and for Nizkor is
able to further involve his RICO racketeers in anything he wants.

Finger this address, find it on milnet and see who it really is.

The big kahuna is not going to be touched. The web serfs are going to
get burned.

That means you “contributors.”

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:02:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:04:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 05:34:30 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
Schultz) wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken ([email protected]) wrote:
>: > [email protected] (Prince Myshkin) writes:
>:
>: > As you know there is no provision for conversion in Mosaic Law

>: Funny. The book of “Ruth” is in my copy of the scriptures. Did
>: someone rip it out of yours?

>By “Mosaic Law” I believe he means the first five books of the Bible.

Not the first. Only 2 through 5. You really do no want to be
associated with Genesis. It is real hard over shit.

>In which case I would ask him

So why do you not ask me?

to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
which is not conversion either, fool.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:20:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 5:23:00 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:22:12 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>> Mittleman) wrote:

>> Dear jerkoff Jew,
>>
>> Shall I do it again?
>>
>> You are not welcome.
>>
>> This is not your newsgroup.
>>
>> Go away.

>1. Danny Mittleman was here long before you crawled in from whatever fetid
> swamp you emerged from.

Actually I was here before he showed up but there was a hiatus in my
participation. He is one of the actionable newcomers.

>2. “Dear jerkoff Jew” is a fine way to start a response considering that
> you are threatening to sue someone for calling you an antisemite.

Since the “charter” of Nizkor is wider than that antisemitic is the
least of the points.

If you wish to go further, the AS complaint is against a group, this is
directed towards an individual.

That makes it no different from “You jerkoff liberal.” Get over it.

Your concept of antisemitic is self-serving.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:40:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:42:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 14:57 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison writes…
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>> that is about it) content.
>>>
>>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
>>
>>So, f’r instance, someone was to set up a web page called “The Tale of
>>Matt Giwer, Troll” and link it to various locations that have catalouged
>>your lies, mistatements and evasions, also offering links to Nizkor and
>>has commentary from people whom you have libelled, insulted and lied to,
>>the Thomas Paine (?) web server would carry it, yes?
>>
>>Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

> Funny how you and I had the exact same idea immediately! Before today
> I couldn’t imagine a scenario where I would be writing a cheque to
> Giwer. Now I can wait. I want to have the first page on Thomas
> Paine-in-the-ass ISP! I am going to mirror Rack Jite and provide links
> directly into the Giwer section of Nizkor. Yesseree this will be fun!

> OK, so obviously I will do a Matt Giwer / Eleanor Roosevelt separated
> at birth page, but does anybody have any other ideas about what I could
> do?

Ready to send me a check?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:38:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:40:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 08:17 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>that is about it) content.
>>
>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
> ^^^
> IPS == Idiotic Persistent Spammer

If that is what you are connected to, that is your business.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:39:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:41:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>that is about it) content.
>>
>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.

> What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer’s
> trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence! We will quickly find out
> to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!

It looks like I can offer a gig for $500 a month but nothing a firm yet.

I will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Interested?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:39:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:40:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (A Huber) writes…
>>>
>>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>>when asked nicely by participants in this group.
>>
>>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup. j*ws are not “participants”, but
>>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide
>>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons
>>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the
>>higher will be the quality of discourse.

> Talk amongst yourselves. Now THERES an effective way to convince
> others. Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.

> daniel david mittleman
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”

Dear jerkoff Jew,

Shall I do it again?

You are not welcome.

This is not your newsgroup.

Go away.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hagen Responds
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:42:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:44:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:21:17 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:

>—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

>Calling all H*bers and G*wers! One Holohugger correcting another!

Is an asterix [*] as good as a hyphen and make us gods to the j*wish
cattle?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:20 PDT 1996
Article: 50402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:55:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:56:54 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 02:33:06 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison writes:

>>
>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> One word with regard to the “suffocating cough:” remember that
>until
>>> late in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a lachrymogen as
>a
>>> warning indicator to let people know in the event of a leak – cyanide
>is
>>> not as clearly noticeable. The cough may have been caused by residual
>>> lachrymogen, which to be effective would have to be detectable before
>the
>>> cyanide developed lethal levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was
>in
>>> the area.
>>
>>If the lachrymogen behaved anything like CN or CS then it may have
>persisted
>>long *after* any cyanide had been neutralized. The coveralls I wore
>during
>>NBC training (and the t-shirt I wore underneath) that were exposed to gas
>>maintained the distinct odor for months afterwards, even after having
>been
>>chemically treated and washed many many times.
>>
>>This brings up a potentially interesting point. Tear gas will absorb
>into
>>clothing easily and still be effective, at least minimally. Exposure to
>>damp skin (not just the eyes and nose/mouth) can be extremely painful.
>After
>>the gassing session, I was the first one to hit the showers and the
>others
>>laughed when I practically screamed as I jumped in…at least until it
>>was their turn. Nasty stuff.
>>
>>Perhaps removal of lachrymogen in Zyklon B was due not solely to its use
>>as a killing agent but to make it easier to clear out the bodies after.
>>Much as the guards supplied the Sonderkommando with gas masks, perhaps
>>they eliminated the lachrymogen because it became a nuisance having the
>>body carriers in pain and not moving bodies efficiently enough.
>>
>>

>This is interesting, but I still inclined to regard that detail as a fake
>detail. Someone here posted that the warning agent was a formic acid
>compound (smell of mashed ants). That’s a bad scent, but not a cough
>inducer. Secondly, the warning stuff for cyanide gas would be to alert
>you of its presence. An *alert* that would consist of making you cough,
>and thus taking in deep breaths to defeat it, would, it seems to me,
>ensure deep inhalations of the gas you are supposed to be getting away
>from.

>Your comparison with CN and CS (with which I was trained also) is very
>apt. And I think it was per analogy with such gases (which go back to
>WW1) that the above *detail* was created.

>However there are two questions that remain unanswered: Does HCN provoke
>a cough? How can the warning stuff provoke a cough when by 1944 the
>Zyklon was supposedly made without it?

First off it is all bullshit so why go further.

The problem is that the ability to smell (SMELL) HCN gas is it lacking
in a small percentage of the population.

The suggestion of a tearing agent is absurd.

By the time anyone would tear from HCN they are dead.

This is just one more stupidity introduced by the holohuggers.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:21 PDT 1996
Article: 50404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:47:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4s2kvp$d8[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 13 Jul 1996 21:54 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 13 Jul 1996 08:08 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:08:10 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Chose to retire at 46, hmm? Let’s see, you claim to have graduated in ’67,
>>>>>and assuming a normal 4 year program you’d be 22…24 years later retired,
>>>>>that would be 1991 or ’92, about the same time as the USSR fell.
>>>>
>>>>>Jeez, I’m amazed. Giwer has related a series of internally consistent
>>>>>statements.
>>>>
>>>> The Cold War stand down began in 1988 with the reduction of DEFCON
>>>>level. It was when they stopped maintaining most of their missiles on
>>>>the military side, subordinated their military to fiscal concerns and
>>>>took the first steps towards establishing an international exchange rate
>>>>for their currency. Technically what killed them was their Marxist
>>>>refusal to put a cost on money and thus the ruble had no exchange value
>>>>with any but their allies.
>>>>
>>>> The end finally came with the Gulf War which was not against Iraq but
>>>>against the Red Army. It was to make the case that it was powerless
>>>>against the US. Gorby had gotten control of the KGB and the CPSU and
>>>>with that defeat of Russian military equipment he was able to get
>>>>control of the the Army. There were only three power structures in the
>>>>SU. He had them all.
>>>>
>>>> Their fate was sealed after that war. Their last serious source of hard
>>>>currency was from sales of military hardware. After that war it was
>>>>selling for 10% of its prewar price, i.e. a drug on the market you
>>>>couldn’t give away.
>>>>
>>>> The first five year troop reduction plan was passed in 1990 and we are
>>>>in its last effective year. There should be another troop reduction
>>>>plan in the current DOD appropriations bill but I have not taken the
>>>>time to dig it out. If you get passed what is encapsulated for public
>>>>consumption you will find the disagreements are over what kind of
>>>>weapons are best for the much smaller military we will have in another
>>>>five years.
>>
>>> Nice meandering gibberish, but the fact remains that there is lots of
>>> work to be done in the American military industrial complex. But
>>> apparently there was no role for Giwer in any of this.
>>
>> What would a school kid know?

> Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
> they did was drop the dead weight around ’91 or so, and the military
> R&D budgets have gone back up. The good people moved from the
> government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
> PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture. But you know
> that, troll.

Just to keep this all growing as you are the asshole who does not know
how to delete …

You know not word one about TOTAL budgets or inflation.

Other than that, you have mastered the big red switch.

If you are too young to remember the swithch, then you need to grow up
before you address your elders.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 06:57:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 1:59:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:02:01 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>> that is about it) content.
>>
>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.

>So, f’r instance, someone was to set up a web page called “The Tale of
>Matt Giwer, Troll” and link it to various locations that have catalouged
>your lies, mistatements and evasions, also offering links to Nizkor and
>has commentary from people whom you have libelled, insulted and lied to,
>the Thomas Paine (?) web server would carry it, yes?

>Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

Ready to put up the cash so I can laugh all the way to the bank?

Shall I consider this a binding offer?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50408 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: freedom of speech
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:37:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:39:11 AM CDT 1996
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There is no freedom when the people do not believe in it.

Here is the problem, unless everyone supports this freedom it will be
lost. That anyone excuses censorship of ideas is a person who does not
belong on the internet.

Fuck them and the keyboard they rode in on.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960711: Speaking up [Your daily Nazi propaganda fix]
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:31:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:33:03 AM CDT 1996
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On 14 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (A Huber) wrote:

>> * “There are ethnic-specific limits to enjoying the freedom of the
>> Internet” (September 17th)
>>
>>You can start, Ms. Rimland, by naming one or more ethnic groups which
>>are limited from enjoying the freedom of the Internet. Thanks.
>>
>>Posted; emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
>>–
>> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.

>In specific response to your querry above, the first “ethnic group”
>targeted by Nitzkor and j*w-run providers are Gentiles. We refute your
>holocaust lies. As such, we are continually harassed, our providers are
>harassed and web-sites shut down, and our mailboxes runneth over with
>tirades from your beloved yeshiva. Our freedom to enjoy the net to its
>fullest are, therefore, curtailed.

>As punishment for McOyVey’s sins, there shall be a “little” holocaust of
>local import before morn’.

>Watch our local papers Tuesday for details.

But of course we will prevail and they will lose.

That they do not reliaze this is their problem.

On this newsgroup we have won already.

It is just a matter of time before their gassing is history, in the the
forgotten sense.

But keep in mind that they will continue to play the martyr even without
gassing.

The chant / rant will not change.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Any day now”?
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 04:02:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 13 11:04:23 PM CDT 1996
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On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:35:18 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Part II. Top half lopped off.

>>If you’d like to donate a scanner and software to Dr. Ulrich Roessler in
>>Germany, who has the patent and is working on a translation, I imagine
>>he might be grateful enough to scan it and upload it to Nizkor. Since
>>we’re all volunteers, I’m afraid we aren’t the best equipped or staffed.
>>But your donation can help correct that. Thanks again.

> “If you’d like to donate a scanner and software to Dr. Ulrich
>Roessler …”? Jamie down by the school yard.

>Jamie has stated that he has a summary of the patent, which should
>cause the wondering mind to think of how he would come to have a
>summary and not all. How long does it take to translate something like
>a patent – or a manual?

>Here is what Jamie said 4 months ago on 2/25/96:

>”My source for the ten-minutes figure, incidentally (I’m surprised you
>didn’t ask!), is the Zyklon patent. I don’t have a direct citation
>for it yet, nor quotes, but it’s been summarized for me by reliable
>sources who have found it, in Europe, and whom I hope will send me
>photocopies any day now.”

>”Reliable sources” evidentally have supplied Jamie with something.
>Translated even. Unless Jamie reads German. But then he ask me to
>translate it for Nizkor, so that wouldn’t be it. So we have Jamie
>saying he has a summary of this patent, but the thing hasn’t been
>translated yet, and Jamie doesn’t know German, leaving the question of
>how he comes to be citing it out here?

>Anyway it’s clear from the record of the thread that Jamie tried to
>get away with a fast one with his claim that “Zyklon B” gave up all of
>it’s HCN in ten minutes, but then eventually had to say, “By the way,
>I should correct myself: I don’t know that it was Zyklon _B_
>specifically, nor that the ten-minute release time was accurate for
>all forms.”

>What a mess.

>Theres something fishy with this Degesch patent. Here we are talking
>about the very core of the Holocaust story, the gas, THE gas, and we
>have this network out there that has spent millions promoting the
>story, and has resorted to energetic intrigues, stopping at nothing to
>get it out there, and here we have this document that should shed some
>light on the THE gas, and it’s not available, in any language.

What is missing is always more interesting that what exists in such
stories. When they are fantasies they start with the periphery and work
inward creating a ring of circumstantial evidence.

When they are fact, they start with the evidence and work outward.

As it is, we are starting with a few million who can not be traced after
the war (inside the Soviet Union no less) and trying to work inward
claiming the sole cause for this is that they were gassed or executed
for some reason that is inconsistent with any documentation.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 13:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:32:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 12:34:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 10:32:04, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )] [Sat 13 Jul 96 >13:23][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> rSE> Molecular mass has an effect on diffusion, BUT diffusion is
> rSE> negligible compared to the eddy diffusivity and turbulence is
> rSE> mass independent to a first approximation.

>It’s the action of the gas *PRIOR TO MIXING* that is of concern
>here.

>During WWI chlorine was an effective poison gas because its high
>molecular weight caused it to fall near the ground and form a film.
>It could only be used on windless days because even a small wind
>would disperse it in the way you mentioned.

>The disaster at Bhopal was similar. A very high molecular weight
>kept it near the ground. Diffusion and dispersion caused a
>still-toxic miasma above the film of gas. It was high enough in
>weight that it would hold together for a while even if there was a
>slight breeze.

>When you go near an oil refinery or large storage area (or even a
>not-so-large one), you will smell the “oil” smell. Those are
>fractions with a molecular weight higher than air. The lighter
>fractions drift up and are dispersed rapidly.

>Du Pont’s best car paints, literally shipped by pipe from the Ajax
>Du Pont plant to the adjacent Oshawa GM plant in one case, would put
>11 gallons of solvents into the air for every gallon that ended up
>on the car. The venting consisted of large blowers blasting it into
>the atmosphere and effectively mixing it before the settling effect
>could occur. Oxidation and UV destroyed the stuff quickly.

>The same holds true for HCN. It doesn’t fall – it has a tendency to
>rise.

>IOW – even if simply released at ground level and not mechanically
>dispersed, it would (while still unmixed) rise. This would enhance
>the rate of mixing. Goodbye HCN danger!

>Combined with the fact that it was blasted into the atmosphere by
>the blowers, HCN would be heavily diluted by the time it got
>anywhere else. It’s dangerous in enclosed areas, not open ones.

>That same “rise” tendency explains some of the statements made by
>thw witnesses. The stuff is sprinkled in, hits the ground and
>evaporates out of its carrier. It then rises inside the closed
>container of the chamber and kills as it builds up from the ground.

>++GMAIL 1.3++ Poor Matt – he is trying, you know. Very trying.

And in fact you are doing very well. Every time someone has pointed out
that the HCN in those “induction tubes” would rise back up the tube the
holohuggers have screamed that it would diffuse down and out instead.

It is always good to have someone on the “other side” support what
really would happen.

I certainly want to extend my thanks to you for joining into this
discussion. You are helping out immensely. There have been so many
here without the least idea of the practicalities of engineering.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben Compensates Survivors
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:05:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:07:01 AM CDT 1996
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On 13 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/germany/farben farben.009
>Last-Modified: 1994/10/06

> “In 1960 there was an Auschwitz memorial dinner. Among those who
> were in the camp were Norbert Wilheim, a Jew who decided to file a
> suit against I.G. Farben, our employer in the camps. I.G. Farben
> agreed to settle out of court if Norbert Wilheim was willing to
> represent all the other survivors of the camp and if they would be
> willing to accept a one-time settlement. The offer resulted in a
> payment of $5,000 to every inmate of the Auschwitz Buna
> concentration camp who could prove he had been there any time
> during World War II. The list amounted to several thousand people
> living in the United States, Canada, Israel and other countries.
> Once they agreed to the settlement a few of us decided that we
> could not take the money for personal use. We decided to create the
> Auschwitz Buna Memorial Scholarship Fund, dedicated to the memory
> of those who died but created to give scholarships to the children
> of survivors who had no parents to pay for their education. The
> money was turned over to Bar Ilan University.” (Ernest Michel, as
> quoted in Rothchild, 417)

> Work Cited

> Rothchild, Sylvia, Editor. Voices From The Holocaust. New York and
> Scarborough, Ontario: Meridian, 1982.

What an asshole to post for a dinner of those who did not die.

The worst of this is that they were underpaid.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:03:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:05:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 08:38:20 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
>>researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
>>fields that are not their specialty. Aercheologists and anthropologists
>>and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
>>specialists all the time.
>>
>> On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
>>historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
>>specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims. Do you have a name
>>and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?
>>
>> Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare.

> Indeed, there is just Fred Leuchter, who _calls_ himself one, but who
>has never actually designed one.

Designing one is hardly a criteria for the same reason. There is only
one constructed each time a state adopts gassing as an option. That
would mean the last one was designed some time in the 1950s. It isn’t
as though they wear out from hard usage.

But then that was part of the attack upon the messenger rather than the
message.

>>How about experts
>>on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
>>crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
>>an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
>>(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
>>including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)

> There are references to the Topf patent filed in the ’50s; it has been
>mentioned in posts here. You have not seen them? Or simply did not
>remember what you read?

Patents filed in the 50s miss the mark by a decade at least. That a
patent is filed does not mean that it works. (Or does that surprise
you? Or are you going to go through another of those stupid “patents
are real” routines?)

And we are talking about the designs in use in the early 40s which were,
as everyone appears to have admitted, still the inefficient for simple
incineration design of a real cremation furnace.

What I have read here are claims for more primitive designs than are
available today working four to six (or six to twelve, depending on the
story) times faster than they work today even though they are designed
to achieve the same end result as present day crematoria.

You apparently think that anything posted by people without the
slightest ability to critically consider what they post before they post
it to be the last word, just like Nizkor.

But as you have problems addressing the mail try this again.

>>How about experts
>>on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
>>crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
>>an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
>>(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
>>including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)

None of this has been done at all. And certainly none of this has been
done on this conference.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:06:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:08:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:00:38 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:45:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>[snip]

>>>If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough to do
>>>the job – therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since the cost of
>>>transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of gas.
>>

>[snip]

>>
>>>Now – want to try again?
>>
>> Try again? You have supported my position admirably, more than I could
>>have imagined or expected. It is exactly what I have been saying.
>>Thank you.

> You now admit that the Zyklon could have outgassed fast enough to do
>the job, even in cold weather. Thank you. If you have been saying this
>all along, the paupacy of your English skills has certainly prevented
>anyone seeing it until now.

You are apparently suffering from a reading comprehension problem.

Outgassing is not linear. In the second 5 minutes another 10% of the
remaining 90% is released. It is not linear such that it is all gone in
50 minutes.

You should know basic things like that. It is unclear why you do not
without blaming the public education system.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 20:08:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50519 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:30:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:32:27 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:54:57 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> > Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
>> > they did was drop the dead weight around ’91 or so, and the military
>> > R&D budgets have gone back up. The good people moved from the
>> > government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
>> > PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture. But you know
>> > that, troll.
>>
>> Just to keep this all growing as you are the asshole who does not know
>> how to delete …
>>
>> You know not word one about TOTAL budgets or inflation.

>And you know nothing about history, chemistry, medicine, anatomy, constitutional
>law, international law, geography, anthropology, biology, geology, engineering,
>photo analysis and basic reading.

>Did I miss any?

Only about how your wife wants it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 20:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:32:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:34:30 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 00:44:08 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Rather foolish, actually. You know, if you are experienced, that there
>>is no support gained any place but the lurkers. Participants have sides
>>before they join in and do not change sides.

>You would be surprised, I suspect as to the actual goals of this newsgroup.

>>>BTW – how many people have you persuaded that you are so valuable on
>>>their side that they go out of their way to give you helpful toys?
>>
>>>Do you know what the cost of a dedicated T1 is worth?
>>
>> Down this way it costs $1000 per month plus $900 per month (GeniTlE) for
>>the loopback. What is it up your way?

>A full T1 feed plus the actual connection to the Internet via an access
>provider is in excess of $3000. I get toys like that for free, because I
>persuade people to support me in my efforts.

>No, not “holohuggers”.

I gave you local prices. And I thought GTE was a ripoff. Turns out
they are a bargain.

Thanks for the info.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 02:21:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 9:23:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 02:09:31 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> The problem with the holohuggers is that all things are true at the same
>>time and any disagreement with each other is on the order of being done
>>for show rather than in fact.

>Please try to make sense when you respond. The above is pure nonsense
>and a non-sequitur.
>>
>> However to use your approach to it, the choice of claiming a name and
>>membership is one that claims the history of the Hebrews/Israelites.
>>The name changes in the middle of Exodus so it is unclear which is the
>>proper name or whether they are interchangeable. However there are
>>enough subesequent references to the “your fathers in bondage” to
>>indicate interchangeability is a reasonable presumption.

>Please try to stick to the track.

>Judaism started as part of the schism caused by the attempts of the
>Hasmodeans to fuse Religious and Secular leadership.

>This is approximately 100 years before the official start of the
>Christian Era.

>Please pinpoint the portions of the Jewish tracts that document any
>Genocide.

>You seem to try to quote selectively from the mythologies of Judaism’s
>ancestor, Hebraism. This is a rational as a cretionist trying to “prove”
>things by selecting only specific items in that same set of mythology.

It appears you are saying that there is no relationship between today’s
Jews and the Israelites or Hebrews.

Is that correct?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NEW WEBSITE – Nation of Europa
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:03:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:05:17 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:01:34 +0100, Jeffrey
wrote:

>Statement of Purpose.

>a) To encourage those who belong to the Nation of Europa to explore,
>learn of and appreciate their great cultural heritage, and the deeds
>and achievements of their ancestors.
>b) To instill into those who belong to the Nation of Europa, the
>strength and the knowledge to rebuttthe lies, smears and defamation of
>detractors, a dedication to the values of freedom, peace, unity,
>solidarity and a common purpose, and the courage to develop and build
>healthy values and attitudes.
>c) To revitalise those who belong to the Nation of Europa, by promoting
>a joyful love of life, a love of wisdom and learning, and to seek new
>ideas for a new Ideal.

>—————————————————————————
> Nation of Europa
>The men of the present, to whom my heart once drove me, are strange to me and a
>mockery; and I have been driven from fatherlands and motherlands. So now I love
>only my childrens land, the undiscovered land in the furthest sea: I bid my
>sails seek it and seek it. I will make amends to my children for being the
>child of my fathers: and to all the future – for this present!
>[Page 144 Of the land of Culture, Thus spake Zarathusthra by
>Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 – 1900]
>
> http://www.demon.co.uk/natofeur/
>—————————————————————————
Nice site, excellant server.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:06:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:09:01 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:11:39 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> No, it wouldn’t. If McVay did that he would give up the amusement of
>>Giwer paying for his trip to whereever Giwer filed his action, the fun of deposing
>>Giwer for a week or so, and the pure joy of requesting the appropriate sanctions
>>be assessed against Giwer for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

> I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>his goofy career?

>>
>> –YFE

The charge of “frivolous” is one that takes lots of support else it has
a “chlling effect” upon the average amublance chaser. And of course
they must preserve their own constituency. Lacking ambulance chasers
the need for judges goes down.

Follow the money trail.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:50:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:52:35 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:51:13 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Nizkor list a line of pages from this Peters book, totaling maybe
>15 pages. One should think it would be in the interest of Nizor’s
>position to post, in translated copy, any of it that is directly
>supportive to their position. Whatever it is. As it stands now, only
>those who can read German and root out the limited copy would be able
>to know what it is all about.

Not to mention that 15 pages goes far beyond fair use …

Perhaps someone should contact the publisher?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An old trend in J*daism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:54:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:56:48 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:48:38 GMT, [email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>Date: Wednesday, 03-Jul-96 07:07 PM

>_Hungary to Compensate Jews

>The Hungarian government agreed today (7/3/96) to compensate the jewish
>community for property allegedly seized during World War II. Under an
>agreement, a Hungarian Jewish Heritage Foundation will be set up with a
>board of directors that consists of jewish leaders, government officials
>and independent members. The foundation will manage assets, including
>real estate and valuables they SAY once belonged to jews, and $26 million
>contributed by the Hungarian government.
>
>*******************************************

It would be good if the US did the same thing for Japanese who once
owned an intersection corner in Redondo Beach. But then, Jews are
special.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:16:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 233
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 10:18:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 11:12:54, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Genocide] [Sat 13 Jul 96 03:02][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> mnc> And again, I do not claim proof, only evidence.
> mnc> Aercheological evidence is worth about what you pay for it.

> mnc> But I leave it up to you. If they were not the alters (with
> mnc> blood grooves and all the rest) just what which god were they
> mnc> altars to? They match all blood sacrifice altars found in the
> mnc> region in essential charactistics. And they are found in the
> mnc> foundations of large builds that would correspond to all other
> mnc> temples in the region.

>Ummm, M-A-A-T-T-T!!!

>WAKE UP, MATT!!

>No altars, Matt. There were STATUES. There were all sorts of things
>- but no blood-sacrifice altars.

I even saw films of one of them and the blood groove and drainage path
was pointed out. The term horns was quite disappointing though. It
appears to be a term that was born of translation into English rather
than having started as an English description.

>Jeez! Don’t you ever read what I write??

What makes you think I am dependent upon what you write?

>There was a worship of a dual-deity. An ascetic worship – no
>sacrificial altars – that lasted until the time of Ezra and the
>encoding of Leviticus.

The particular statue on the show was of seven gods. There was also an
inscription making reference to Astarte as the consort of Yahweh God.

> mnc> The region in this case being the Near East, Israel being a
> mnc> small to negligable part of it. Were it not for Christianity,
> mnc> the history of Israel would be on a par with the Hittites, minor
> mnc> players in world events.

>The worship place was found at the foot of the FIRST TEMPLE, Matt!

That was in reference to the goddess cult.

>Memory like a damned colander!

The altars and 7 in 1 statues have been found all over as I said. You
appear not to have updated your information in some years. This stuff
is so old that it was on two of the six segments on the Middle East on
the series Aercheology.

The wide spread nature was specifically addressed as a response to the
suggestion that it was a local cult.

> >> # As I have been told, do your own research. You might as
> >> # Alec where to start.

> >> No go. You’re claiming a genocide by the early Israelites
> >> took place? You have to prove this, according to *your*
> >> standards of proof, that *you* demand for the Holocaust.

> mnc> I claim only evidence. Start with the Book of Joshua.

>Ahhh, yes! A bunch of nomads knock down the walls of a fortress by
>blowing into the horns of sheep, keep the sun standing still so that
>they don’t have to fight on the Sabbath and proceed to wipe out a
>single town.

>Did you really believe that there is somebody around from the planet
>Krypton as well?

>All or none, Matt. No selecting stuff like some creationist, Matt.

> >> You’re unemployed. You got lots of time. Get a move-on,
> >> chump, and show us the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

> mnc> The physical evidence is so well known it has been
> mnc> incorporated into a TV series.

>Interpretation, Matt. Prove it.

Evidence again. Proof is for mathematics.

> mnc> It is only amazing if you really do not know of it.

>Your “knowledge” consists of what I told you, Matt – badly
>remembered.

You should update your information. It ran less than a year ago on TLC.

This was produced shortly after seeing it.


The Greatest Story in History


by


Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/29>

      When I was a lad (I have waited
decades to say that) the press would always say the Second Coming
would be the greatest story in history. Today we cynically joke
about the headline, “World ends tomorrow, women and blacks to
suffer most.” Perhaps that cynicism is deserved as there is such
a story and it has only been covered in one documentary series.


      That series is “Aerchaeology”
hosted by John Rhyse-Davies and has only been shown in the US on
The Learning Channel on cable TV. In some six episodes it
covered the discoveries of archaeologists in Israel in recent
years. In two of them it objectively and in a very understated
manner, removed the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and the
Muslim religion.


      None of this is a secret. It
is in the technical literature and if you visit Israel you can
visit the sites. And yet that is the extent of the coverage of
the story.


      In one episode the evidence
of the origin of the Israelites is quite carefully laid out.
They always lived in the land of Israel as herdsmen and came to
power when people who lived in the cities for some unknown reason
lost power, possibly a war, most likely insurrection by the
herdsmen. To put it more bluntly, as they always lived where
they are there was no Promised Land. Lacking a Promised Land,
there was no Egypt, no Moses, no Ten Commandments. The entire
foundation for three religions has vanished.


      Lacking an Egypt and a Moses
we are also lacking a Joseph and an Abraham and a covenant with a
god. Circumcision, the sign of the covenant, becomes no
different from any other ritual sexual mutilation performed by
primitives around the world. In this everything in the first
five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, the foundation of three
religions vanishes.


      In the other episode the
Israelite pantheon is discussed. The idols of Yahweh, Astarte
(his consort, which is also in inscriptions so there is no
mistake), Baal and several other gods are shown. And a common
representation of all of them in one idol is also shown. Again
more bluntly, Yahweh God, God the Father of Jesus who was the
prophet before Mohammed was no more than an Israelite version of
Zeus, Jupiter or Odin.


      All of this has been implied
in the Bible itself and has been known for centuries. In the
last hundred years it has rapidly become clear from other sources
that there was no basis whatsoever for the Egypt/Moses story: it
being only slightly less fanciful than the magic fruit, the
talking snake and miraculous flood of Genesis.


      But now, in addition to
negative evidence, the lack of evidence for the truth of the
Egypt/Moses story, we have positive evidence of its falsity.
Without first person interaction with a god the Ten Commandments
are barely more a footnote in the history of human moral ideas.
Without a Moses it is difficult to give credence Mosaic Law as
being much of anything other than a curiosity.


      When we learn for certain
this Yahweh was just the first of a pantheon of gods (thou shalt
have no “other” gods before me, as it always read and always
meant) there is no credible basis to argue, “This one is real,
the rest were not.” Since this same god that is God the Father
of the Christian trinity it becomes laughable to argue for its
having either a son or a spirit as other parts of the same idol.
If there ever was a Jesus certainly he was no more than a man as
there is nothing more for him to have a relation than a stone
idol.


      And while Christians focus on
their Jesus, Muslims need to consider that their Allah is the
same stone idol. Their prophet is a prophet of a stone and when
they “akbar” their “Allah” it is this primitive idol they are
praising.


      That is the story that is not
being reported and it is more profound than I have portrayed. It
is easy to think about people recognizing there is no god but it
is another to examine that in practice.


      Next time you are driving
through town pay attention to all the churches and religious
references you see. That is how deeply we are enmired in the
worship of one of the gods of the Israelite pantheon. Listen to
the political speeches and delete the foundation in a god from
everything said. Review every law that exists to prevent an
offense against god, remove the god and try to fill in the blank.


      The UFO conspiracy types hold
the government suppresses what it knows about UFOs because of the
effect upon the people that “we are not alone.” Yet right here
for all to see and read about is the removal of the entire
foundation for the religious beliefs of over half of the world’s
population. It is the biggest news story of all time. It
appears the cynicism about what is news these days is clearly
warranted.


      Perhaps no one wants to be
the one to break the story? Perhaps it is just a matter of not
wanting to put it bluntly? But this is like leaving the coverage
of a UFO landing on the White House lawn to a “maybe, someday”
article by the paper’s science writer.


      And if one wanted to continue
to take religion seriously you would think a picture of Yahweh (a
photo of his idol) would be front page news. It is like
discovering a bust of Jesus or proof positive the Shroud of Turin
is authentic. A painting of Mohammet would pale in comparison
but these discoveries are not news.


      So while you have not read it
in the papers or seen it on the evening news, the greatest news
story of all time (at least of the last two millennia) is not
being told. Now you know it. The foundation of three major
religions is now gone and it was beneath the notice of the press.
It makes you wonder what else the media is not covering.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:24:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 12:27:02 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 09:42:48 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, Alec Grynspan writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>>>firebombing?
>>>
>>>Your rules – back at you!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Sorry, this just doesn’t work. Where are the three million who were
>>gassed? Completely disappeared. Not so Dresden. Photographs and foreign
>>journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
>>days. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Thousands of individuals, and even
>>national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
>>admitted to the bombing of Dresden. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Less
>>than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
>>million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
>>responsibility or involvement. Not so Dresden. And so forth.

> You aren’t following the discussion very well. The dispute is not
>really about whether Dresden was bombed, no more than anyone disputes
>whether Zyklon was used in the camps, although the reductio argument can
>be used on Dresden documents – they are _not_ immune to forgery.

It is your claim that there was ever a dispute over forged documents.

The
>dispute is not about whether there was a major fire and loss of life, no
>more than anyone disputes that a large number of people – well over
>100,000 even by SS records of registered prisoner deaths undisputed by
>revisionists – died at Auschwitz.

And the issue was never over recorded deaths but of the gassing deaths.

You really should start paying attention.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50606 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:30:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 2:32:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:43:35 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># Sorry, this just doesn’t work. Where are the three million
># who were gassed? Completely disappeared.

>You’re wrong right off the bat. There are numerous human
>remains in Treblinka and other camps. You must know this,
>as in the past you responded to this point in another article.

I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains that need to
be found to support 3 million.

How much has been found? Don’t bother, not even the reasonable fraction
of what is required.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.icsc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:25:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 11:27:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 11:48:02 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
>>which is not conversion either, fool.
>>

>Try again, Matt. It says sacrifice – which is a rite reserved for Jews
>and not guests – not meal.

>>>to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>>>procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>>>Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>>>If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

Go argue with Alec G. on this point. He has 1600 hours of religious
education. He says there was no provision for conversion.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 50609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 04:26:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 587
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 9:29:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 10:57:42, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Sat 13 Jul 96 04:17][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> >> Porous carriers of toxic chemicals are dangerous for as much as
> >> 24 hours or more after they are used, yet can easily release
> >> most of their product in a few minutes.

> mnc> Certainly, more than half of, in a few minutes. 30 to 60 is
> mnc> the more than half of under discussion here.

>Matt agrees with me.

We are in agreement. What more can I say?

> >> IOW – it’s like a capacitor discharge. 42% voltage leaks in
> >> time RC and 42% of what was left in 2*RC, etcetera.

> mnc> Precisely what I have been saying.

>He agrees again. The important percentage is released in a very
>short time frame.

> >> If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough
> >> to do the job – therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since
> >> the cost of transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of
> >> gas.

> mnc> I have no idea where you got the tanks of gas idea.

>Matt misses the point because it disagrees with his contention of how
>stupid the use of Zyklon B would have been.

I have not made that contention at all. Perhaps you should have read
what I have been posting before you started addressing what I am not
saying.

>Try real slow, Matt. If you want efficiency, you first have to
>define efficiency. Efficiency of transportation and storage can have
>a higher weight than completeness of use. If only 25% of the HCN got
>used in Zyklon-B it could still be judged as a better choice than
>the “perfect” gas-in-tanks would be.

That is still your issue. It has no bearing on what I have been saying.

The particular outgassing issue relates to the death times that are
reported most commonly on the order of 10 to 15 minutes (with CO on the
order of 15 to 20 minutes) although I can find reports of instantaneous
to two days as the extremes.

You note that the outgassing time is one aspect of this problem.
Although I am not ready to post, my first cut estimate of the total
amount of ZB needed to bring the infamous LK up to a concentration that
would kill in 10 minutes (300 ppm) would require some 4-6 Kg of
competely outgassed ZB assuming 50% by weight.

As you can see, with any reasonable outgassing time, even giving the
time as 15 minutes with 10 minutes of outgassing, there would be a huge
additional amount of ZB needed to reach lethal concentration so quickly.

For example, your 10% in five minutes ups the required amount by a
factor of five to ten to meet 15 minutes. And then since the “usual”
indicator of death is the screaming stopping the half lethal time is
much less than that 15 minutes increasing the amount required even
furtther.

> >> Now – want to try again?

> mnc> Try again? You have supported my position admirably, more
> mnc> than I could have imagined or expected. It is exactly what I
> mnc> have been saying. Thank you.

>Then you have been saying that Zyklon B is a good choice for
>exterminating people?!?

I have been saying that the descriptions of its use do not match with
the way it would have worked. I have taken the liberty to attach four
such descriptions which of course do not agree with each other and
although three of them are directly attributed to Hoess.

>Either you have a severe cognition problem or are declaring a
>victory-by-ground-shift again.

You really should have read what I have been saying first.

> mnc> I will keep this message as a reference for the unbelievers.
> mnc> You are very well credentialed and experienced and in fact you
> mnc> are in the holohugger’s minds unimpeachable.

>ANd I thought once that you might actually make a good “sparring
>partner” in a debate.

What is there to spar about? Following this you will find four separate
accounts, three of which are directly attributed to the man who should
know best. You might wish to bring yourself up to date on these stories
and then compare them to what you know about HCN and consider whether or
not you think they support its use.

The second set includes the “gelatinous masses” report. The speculation
on that particular report is that it was a vague reference to the WW I
blistering agents.

The blue color appears to “obviously” come from the German name for HCN,
Blausaure, even though you know it is colorless. And I can post the
Degesh publication again for you that specifically identifies the
carrier for the kind used for fumigation as wood pulp. There is no way
there is any reason to suggest any of the people seeing blue would have
actually seen what they are talking about.

So if you really want to participate in this you are going to have to
catch up on what is really under discussion rather than what you imagine
is under discussion.

=====

HOESS, RUDOLF FRANZ (1900-1947)… In 1934 he was attached to the SS at
Dachau … 1940 given rank of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer in command at the
Auschwitz camp. [He] was responsible for the execution of more than 2.5
million inmates, not counting a half million who were allowed to starve
to death. He performed his job so well that he was commended in a 1944
SS report that called him “a true pioneer in this area because of his
new ideas and educational methods.” He was sentenced to death at Warsaw
and was executed several days later at Auschwitz.

At the fulcrum of the extermination system in Poland were the camps at
Auschwitz, Maidanek, Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor….
Auschwitz was the most notorious of the extermination centers. At the
height of its activity Auschwitz could house more the 100,000 men and
women and could provide for the gassing and incineration of 12,000
prisoners a day…. The .. gas chambers could accommodate 2,000
prisoners at one time. Rudolf Hoess testified at Nuremberg: “When I set
up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Zyclon B which was
crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death-chamber from a
small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people
in the death-chamber, depending on climatic conditions. We knew when the
people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited for
half-an-hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After
the bodies were removed our special commandos [‘Sonderkommandos’ made up
of prisoners who were partially trusted] took off the rings and
extracted the gold teeth of the corpses.”

“We tried to fool the victims into believing that they were going
through a delousing process. Of course, at times they realized our true
intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties. Frequently women
would hide their children under their clothes, but we found them and we
sent the children to be exterminated. We were required to carry out
these exterminations in secrecy, but the foul and nauseating stench from
the continued burning of bodies permeated the whole area and all the
people living around Auschwitz knew what was going on.”

Taken from the …—————————————————-
Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, by Dr. Louis L. Snyder, Professor of
History, The City College and The City University of New York. Paragon
House, New York, 1989. ISBN 1-55778-144-3
——————————————————-

“The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11.
Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded
cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in.
A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over…. I must even
admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass
extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither
Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be
carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how
it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a
procedure.” “KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer”, second
edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.

=====

Here we have two different stories attributed to the same person.

If you would like to get out your browser, here are two more conflicting
stories on the same subject.

A Tale of two Gassings

A Tale of Two Gassings

      For those seeing this for the
first time, consider for a moment the impact of essentially the
same story with the details changed and a different set of
fabulous details thrown in.


      What you are going to read
are two different descriptions of the same event. Where you
would expect to find the two stories to be complimentary and to
shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.


      We find unexplainable
contradictions in most places. In one case we find an
unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common
misconception. We find different people and numbers of people
involved.


      We even find an absolutely
impossible deteail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing
comparison.

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot 1

Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded

commentary

Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet
commissars and other POW’s who were subject to liquidation.
H&oumlss’s men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but
on September 3 H&oumlss’s enterprising subordinate
Hauptsturmf&uumlhrer Fritsch

Note that different people are involved in the different stories.
In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch.


      Also note that in one case
there is no mention H&oumlss and in the other he is mentioned.

noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing
the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed
to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.

thought of an expedient new method based on the camp’s own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow
to get rid of them.


      Two experts had
fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide,
Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that
turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (H&oumlss, “Commandant
of Auschwitz,” 175. Interrogation of H&oumlss, 14 May 1946, NA RG
238, M-1019/R 28/63)

      Note in one case the companions of
this officer are charged with delousing. In the other case
professional exterminators are brought in.


      Note also that person knocked
out with one whiff of a deadly poison.


      Note further that it is not a
crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen
cyanide absorbed into diatomite, what we commonly use today as
kitty litter and to clear up machine shop oil spills.

      To Breitwieser, this seemed to
offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming
executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the
Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue
pellets,

      Note that these pellets are grey
and not blue. Diatomite is grey. Cyanide is colorless. The
color is wrong.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians
awaiting execution.

      On September 3 Fritsch decided
to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians
and another 250 sick prisoners
from the camp hospital into an
underground detention cell.

      Note that both the number and
the composition of the people differ.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas
masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like
blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of
poison gas.


     
After they left, the doors were sealed.(H&oumlss,
Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer,
“Auschwitz,” in J&aumlckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den
Juden, 167-68) H&oumlss wrote later that death was instantaneous.
Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to
witness the event; he was away on a business trip.

      Note that the first story
appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other
stories while the second has a “walked among” indication.


      Note in the second story this
is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the
gas is invisible.


      Note also that this separate
and independent story also invents a false blue color.

Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the
bodies were met by a fearsome sight.

      Other sources indicate that
even the next day not everyone was dead,
and the SS men had
to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When H&oumlss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the
successful experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz,
H&oumlss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and,
according to H&oumlss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the
peasant farmstead for extermination.(H&oumlss, Commandant, 175.
>From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I,
190)(Breitman, 203)

      Here we have a disagreement as
to the times involved and the subsequent actions if any. In the
first story it is unclear why, if being immediately “knocked out”
was expected that they waited two days. In the second story it
is strange that there is a major conflict between the time taken
to die.

Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their
death agonies, torn out each other’s hair, and bitten off their
fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous
blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail
tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)

      Here we have a description worthy
of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King
would never make.


      Go back and read about the
statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas.
Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they
die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted
injuries.


      And then somehow this
particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and
which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing
into gelatinous masses.


      When impossible things are
claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a
story.


      We have two different people
getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions
are charged with delousing and in the second case professional
fumigators are brought in.


      In one story it is 1000
Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick
people.


      In one case the pellets are
dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are
walking around in the room to spread it.


      In neither case is the room
large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.


      In the first story there is a
very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked
out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting)
while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately.
No horrifying details are noted.


      In the former story the
impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does
not include them or anything out of the ordinary.


      One has to wonder how people
who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story
and the conflicts between them.

1 also found in
Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database
but it may be purged by
the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they
approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original
work.

=====

None of the four are particularly related to HCN or the effect it would
have.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:12:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 12:14:43 AM PDT 1996
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On 15 Jul 1996 06:51 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (A Huber) writes…
>>>>>
>>>>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>>>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>>>>when asked nicely by participants in this group.
>>>>
>>>>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup. j*ws are not “participants”, but
>>>>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide
>>>>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons
>>>>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the
>>>>higher will be the quality of discourse.
>>
>>> Talk amongst yourselves. Now THERES an effective way to convince
>>> others. Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.
>>
>>> daniel david mittleman
>>>===========================================================================
>>> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”
>>
>> Dear jerkoff Jew,

> I am as atheist as you are, just not as obnoxious about it (thought I
> had mentioned this before.)

Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?

>> Shall I do it again?

> What, jerkoff? (I can’t follow your incoherent ramblings and this
> adjective is the only thing above that seems to resemble a verb for
> which “it” could be referring. Oh for the help of a Giweridian
> linguist.)

>> You are not welcome.

> Thank you, Emily Postnews.

>> This is not your newsgroup.

> Like you understand the history of alt.revisionism.

Please explain the history to us all, old timer.

Like you can claim
> any ownership at all over this group. Like anyone accepts your opinion
> as valid on any topic around here. Like what you say matters. Ha.

>> Go away.

> That’s the wonderful thing about usenet, no one can make us go away.
> In fact, that is the ONLY reason you are still here.

Despite the harrassment campaign, you mean.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:33:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 2:35:20 AM CDT 1996
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On 15 Jul 1996 13:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Richard
James Green) wrote:

>[posted and e-mailed to Ehrlich606 so that he doesn’t miss it.]

>There is nothing necessarily inconsistent about reports that Zykon-B is
>blue and that it is mauve. In my lab we use silica gel with an
>indicator as a dessicant. When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
>blue. When it becomes wet, it is pink. When the dessicant just starts
>to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.

But we know from the Degesh document on the formulation used for
fumigation that the carrier was wood pulp. So there is no need to bring
this into the discussion. It is not relevent.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:37:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 2:39:53 AM CDT 1996
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On 15 Jul 1996 20:37:46 GMT, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Quite impressive but not outstanding nor of more than
> statistical interest.

> Nothing beyond normal demographic distribution.

>Mr. Giwer suffers from attention span problems. The original
>proposition was that Jews contributed nothing in America’s struggle
>for independence. Now, he concedes that Jews were involved according
>to their “normal demographic distribution.”

And I also said it is no different from tallying up the contribution of
red haired people.

>That kind of participation is good enough for any other ethnic group,
>but not for Jews, who must, according to Mr. Giwer and his ilk, do
>more than anyone else in order to be considered only slightly
>inferior to everyone else! But, since colonial Jews only matched the
>performance of other groups, they must be considered much inferior to
>everyone else.

What other ethnic groups? Please be specific in any other ethnic group
making such a claim. You will be the first so you might want to
consider publishing your research.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Email ‘bombings’?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:51:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 436
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 1:54:08 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:41:54 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Holohuggers are into harrassment as a way of life.
>>
>> After all, it is all they have left after their myths are exposed.
>
>Quoth Matt Giwer:
>

> Never debate, only attack.
>
>Sara
>
>Oh, before I forget,

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer.matt/

>–
>”A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do.”
> Walt Whitman

A Tale of two Gassings

A Tale of Two Gassings

      For those seeing this for the
first time, consider for a moment the impact of essentially the
same story with the details changed and a different set of
fabulous details thrown in.


      What you are going to read
are two different descriptions of the same event. Where you
would expect to find the two stories to be complimentary and to
shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.


      We find unexplainable
contradictions in most places. In one case we find an
unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common
misconception. We find different people and numbers of people
involved.


      We even find an absolutely
impossible deteail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing
comparison.

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot 1

Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded

commentary

Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet
commissars and other POW’s who were subject to liquidation.
H&oumlss’s men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but
on September 3 H&oumlss’s enterprising subordinate
Hauptsturmf&uumlhrer Fritsch

Note that different people are involved in the different stories.
In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch.


      Also note that in one case
there is no mention H&oumlss and in the other he is mentioned.

noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing
the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed
to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.

thought of an expedient new method based on the camp’s own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow
to get rid of them.


      Two experts had
fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide,
Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that
turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (H&oumlss, “Commandant
of Auschwitz,” 175. Interrogation of H&oumlss, 14 May 1946, NA RG
238, M-1019/R 28/63)

      Note in one case the companions of
this officer are charged with delousing. In the other case
professional exterminators are brought in.


      Note also that person knocked
out with one whiff of a deadly poison.


      Note further that it is not a
crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen
cyanide absorbed into diatomite, what we commonly use today as
kitty litter and to clear up machine shop oil spills.

      To Breitwieser, this seemed to
offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming
executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the
Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue
pellets,

      Note that these pellets are grey
and not blue. Diatomite is grey. Cyanide is colorless. The
color is wrong.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians
awaiting execution.

      On September 3 Fritsch decided
to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians
and another 250 sick prisoners
from the camp hospital into an
underground detention cell.

      Note that both the number and
the composition of the people differ.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas
masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like
blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of
poison gas.


     
After they left, the doors were sealed.(H&oumlss,
Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer,
“Auschwitz,” in J&aumlckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den
Juden, 167-68) H&oumlss wrote later that death was instantaneous.
Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to
witness the event; he was away on a business trip.

      Note that the first story
appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other
stories while the second has a “walked among” indication.


      Note in the second story this
is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the
gas is invisible.


      Note also that this separate
and independent story also invents a false blue color.

Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the
bodies were met by a fearsome sight.

      Other sources indicate that
even the next day not everyone was dead,
and the SS men had
to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When H&oumlss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the
successful experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz,
H&oumlss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and,
according to H&oumlss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the
peasant farmstead for extermination.(H&oumlss, Commandant, 175.
>From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I,
190)(Breitman, 203)

      Here we have a disagreement as
to the times involved and the subsequent actions if any. In the
first story it is unclear why, if being immediately “knocked out”
was expected that they waited two days. In the second story it
is strange that there is a major conflict between the time taken
to die.

Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their
death agonies, torn out each other’s hair, and bitten off their
fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous
blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail
tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)

      Here we have a description worthy
of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King
would never make.


      Go back and read about the
statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas.
Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they
die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted
injuries.


      And then somehow this
particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and
which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing
into gelatinous masses.


      When impossible things are
claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a
story.


      We have two different people
getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions
are charged with delousing and in the second case professional
fumigators are brought in.


      In one story it is 1000
Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick
people.


      In one case the pellets are
dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are
walking around in the room to spread it.


      In neither case is the room
large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.


      In the first story there is a
very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked
out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting)
while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately.
No horrifying details are noted.


      In the former story the
impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does
not include them or anything out of the ordinary.


      One has to wonder how people
who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story
and the conflicts between them.

1 also found in
Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database
but it may be purged by
the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they
approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original
work.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 23:54:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50870 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:26:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 12:29:11 AM CDT 1996
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On 16 Jul 1996 22:12:03 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> Alec Grynspan writes:

>
>> Your original challenge was that someone show how the Jews reached
>> Eastern Europe without coming from Khazaria.

> Actually his original challenge was to show a migration from the middle
>east to the Caspian Sea area. That was easy. There was a migration that
>started under the Persian king Artaxerxes and the settlements were in place in
>the 1st century BCE. Matty poo’s scholarly reponse to this rather well
>established archeological fact was: “Alexander beat up the Jews and so did the
>Romans.”

> Matty poo certainly understands scholarly debates.

Alec of course holds that there were no Jews prior to the first century
CE giving you the wrong date by a serious amount. Sort of like
confusing the Revolutionary War and WW II.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 23:54:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50881 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:56:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Jul 1996 15:00:32 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 14 Jul 1996 15:04:18 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear jerkoff Jew,
>>
>>> A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for,
>>>apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite. I suggest you read how the federal
>>>courts deal with litigants who file frivolous lawsuits.
>>
>> What is antisemitic about that?

> I guess it would depend if you filed your frivolous lawsuits against
>Jews just because they were Jews and you wanted to harrass them, wouldn’t
>it?

Excuse me, but McVay is a notorious non-Jew. It would be quite
difficult to make that claim stick, would it not? And since he appears
to be the organizer and ringleader of this conspiracy, certainly the
central figure in the paths to the “contriubtors” and donation
acceptors, there is no way the suit itself could be considered as
harrassing Jews.

That Jews may have been suckered in by his ploy is their problem.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 00:41:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50899 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.communism.moderated,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Differences between Communisism and Socialism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 04:42:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 15 Jul 1996 22:35 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>>[Marx] in fact advocated that serfs should live in the mold of the landed
>>gentry or nobility if you like that term. He did nothing else but
>>contrive a piecemeal concoction of nonsense to suggest it could happen.

>>He was completely wrong and only twice was the idea successfully
>>implemented.

> Well, that would make him not *completely* wrong, wouldn’t it?

Not completely. He failed to realize that his ideas could only be
imposed by force and that the illusion of property rights had to remain.

And as you know even the CPSU declared they were only socialized in that
they were unable to progress to the point where the government would
wither away. That is why the leaders were regularly giving speeches
announcing they were only socialists and had not achieved true Marxism.

You may note the S in NSDAP. You may note Mussolini’s private remarks
that he named it Fascism because the Catholic Church was opposed to
Marxism.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50905 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:02:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Jul 1996 12:51:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>> What other ethnic groups? Please be specific in any other ethnic group
>> making such a claim. You will be the first so you might want to
>> consider publishing your research.

> The patterns of support among ethnic groups duirn the American Revolution
>has never been researched? You’re joking, aren’t you Matty-poo? Do you ever visit a
>library? Maybe you and L’il Tommy should go together on a joint venture of discovery.

Should you try it some day you might learn something.

But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the US prior
to the Revolution what was not from Britain?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50912 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:13:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]s.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
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On 16 Jul 1996 22:13:34 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Go argue with Alec G. on this point. He has 1600 hours of religious
>> education. He says there was no provision for conversion.

> No. You did. He claimed the biblical debates about conversion were from
>the period of Ezra.

> –YFE

Since you are so bid on editting also, you know the citation was from
Exodus, a bit before the time of Ezra. But rather he connected Ezra
with monotheism whereas he puts the conversion debates post CE.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50914 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 06:25:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:01 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains that need to
>> be found to support 3 million.

>Since they were murdered in several camps and the access to the majority
>of the sites was restricted for over 40 years, the amount that was
>detected was consistent, given the amount of sampling done, with the
>numbers murdered.

Be the first to demonstrate such consistancy. If you had been here long
enough you would know that this is a very old assertion and no one here
has been able to give even the slightest citation as to the such a thing
having happened.

As for being restricted, you mean restricted from western Europe. The
Poles are civilized people and would certainly have worked to recover
their remains and given them a proper burial.

Since you missed them … here is a chance to see the volume and weight
you have to find, more or less. Dismissing the numbers by saying
“children” is not acceptable. Only a recalculation is acceptable. I
expect a real engineer to have higher standards than holohuggers.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT

http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

Dec 26, 1995 @
Q. What’s left after a body is cremated? It’s ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term “ashes” is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
fragments missing. Buried in a 5 acre area. 400 tons of bone fragments
per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.

1,200,000 at Auschwitz. 3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
through a 1 centimeter mesh.

My thank again to Van Alstine for this website.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find. That was based upon the
internet cremation society’s statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications?

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz. This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side. On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep. However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

So back to Treblinka. There we have a 45 foot cube. Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments. But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.

But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments. So let me address that for our applied mathematician. The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything. He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core. The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.

If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.

For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50918 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Any day now”?
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:56:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
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On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:02:27 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>Because we’re not an “awesome Holocaust promotional network.” We’re a
>>bunch of amateurs doing the best we can in our free time. You’ve been
>>told that _how_ many times now?

>”We’re a bunch of amateurs … how many times” do we have to tell you
>that?

>Poor Jamie.

>>Posted/emailed.
>>–
>> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.

They are a bunch of amateurs involved in libel and as a group have
organized to the point they are liable under the RICO statutes. Treble
punative damages there as I recall. Against each individual as I
recall.

But then of course they are only following orders. How convenient an
excuse. It is really only McVay.

This McVay

> There is a “Ken Mcvay” registered with the DOD whois
>server. At a machine named “oneb.wimsey.bc.CA”.

It is amazing just how far the tentacles of the United States Department
of Defense have gotten into Canada. It appears there is an interest in
the military to deflect any criticism of the US military support of
Israel in Canada in to the paid “antisemitic” mold.

Hey, co-webmasters! Demand a piece of the action. DOD is rich.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50922 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:57:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
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On 16 Jul 1996 20:14:30 GMT, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

> Dear jerkoff Jew,

>On 14 Jul 1996 15:04:18 GMT,
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) commented:

> A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for,
> apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite. I suggest you read
> how the federal courts deal with litigants who file frivolous
> lawsuits.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> What is antisemitic about that?

>Not just anti-Semitic, but stupid, too!

What is antisemitic about it?

Or will you join all the rest who can not answer the question?

Of course you will.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:20 PDT 1996
Article: 50923 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:59:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:41:26 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>> Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?

> In the dictionary. Randonm House Dictionary: “Jew, 1. A person
>whose religion is Judaism.”

All these Jews here keep claiming they can be Jewish by birth. Ah,
well, who can you trust these days.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:20 PDT 1996
Article: 50927 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 06:28:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## You’re wrong right off the bat. There are numerous human
>## remains in Treblinka and other camps. You must know this,
>## as in the past you responded to this point in another article.

># I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains
># that ne ed to be found to support 3 million.

>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>of them were children and infants.

I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
calculator. Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?

I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
the results.

You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:21 PDT 1996
Article: 50944 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:35:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 16 Jul 1996 06:47 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 15 Jul 1996 11:49:54 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>> I gave you local prices. And I thought GTE was a ripoff. Turns out
>>>>they are a bargain.
>>
>>>I’m talking about the full feed, not the T1 alone. That includes
>>>connection to the provider’s feed, hardware, the works.
>>
>> The “works” on the hardware include little things like an $8000 router.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps you need to define things a little better.
>>
>> If you just mean dropping the extra one time cost of a machine, that is
>>another $1000 coming up to $3000 which is close enough to your ballpark.
>>
>>
>> If you want to talk the whole thing, that runs about $40,000 minimum in
>>hardware and software and double that to have a really good set up as a
>>provider.
>>
>> But then if you really mean just getting on to a provider’s site that
>>depends upon the provider. I can make a better deal than you are
>>talking about. Check out providers and see what you can get. I found
>>one whose terms I like. Going further would be discussing business.
>>Find your own.
>>
>> And no guarantee I will do it, just that it looks like a source of
>>income for a modest initial investment. And, yes, my numbers are firm.

> Ha! Giwer’s not going to start such a business. It’s just more
> trolling. And if he did, at $500 a pop he’d get nary a customer. And
> when he brought his prices down to actually attract customers, he will
> also attract every enemy he’s made over the years on bbs’s. No way his
> upstream link would put up with the kind of shenanigans that would be
> going on with his site.

> Not a threat (I have no knowledge of how to do such things – I’m just a
> school kid), just a prediction. Call it psychic.

Quite to the contrary, $40 per month for 10 Megs payable up front for
each user. I risk the big money on the gamble of future earnings.

When do I expect your check?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50945 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 07:37:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:05:34 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 15 Jul 1996 11:49:54 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>
>> >I’m talking about the full feed, not the T1 alone. That includes
>> >connection to the provider’s feed, hardware, the works.
>>
>> The “works” on the hardware include little things like an $8000 router.

>?!? An Ascend P130 is less than $1800 CDN – and it handles ISDN on the
>side!

I’ll mention it but that is not my interest at the moment.

>> talking about. Check out providers and see what you can get. I found
>> one whose terms I like. Going further would be discussing business.
>> Find your own.

>Dropping a T1 to a T3 (Courtesy Bell Canada), combined with all of the
>works – but not the cost of setting up as a provider itself –
>$3000/month for the connectivity, all parts.

>As for becoming a full provider – once is enough, thank you!

So what is your point in the response?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:23 PDT 1996
Article: 50946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: lawsuit threats
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:10:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
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Where was the outrage when “Gord McFee” was the first to initiate that
threat? Where was the ridicule? Where were the responses that are
nonsense in either direction?

No where of course.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:24 PDT 1996
Article: 50948 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:36:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]c.nokia.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:14:53 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> I am NOT talking about suitability and you know that.

>No – you are talking about the use of Zyklon and the mechanisms of
>Zyklon, HCN and their dispersion.

>No “advancing to the rear”, “advancing laterally” or other dodging
>allowed, Matt.

No matter what you wish to invent, I have been talking about the
descriptions not matching the gas.

And I note that you have failed to defend those descriptions.

If you were to do that you would be arguing against ZB.

I presume your reluctance to do so is beaue you to not wish to argue
against ZB.

>> It is interesting that holohuggers including AG have all started to
>> claim at the same time that I am talking about suitability of use when I
>> am addressing exactly what I say I am addressing and nothing else.

>Which is what I am addressing. I note that you are quick at accusing
>others of doing what you are doing by your very accusation.

I have NOT ONCE in this NG addressed suitability and you should know
that.

But you refuse to address what I have posted.

>> It appears that you folks think you can trot out the canned arguments
>> about suitability and get away without addressing what I am talking
>> about.

>Stick to the track, Matt. Nobody’s talking about suitability per se,
>except yourself by challenging the mechanisms of gassing.

I am to repeat one more time, that the “testimony” does not match the
gas.

Now, take a few minutes of your valuable time to address that real life
fact.

You explain to me how thousands die in 10-15 minutes with wire mesh
induction columns of ZB as the carrier of HCN poisoning.

Read the fine conference. You know the testimony can not be reconciled
with ZB.

Why do you refuse to address it?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:24 PDT 1996
Article: 50950 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH’S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not ha
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:01:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:51:11 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> It is quite consistent with what I have described from the beginning.
>> If you had been here long enough you would know that.

>I’ve been here a long long time, Matt.

>Just because I was (and still am, dammit!) too busy to get involved
>here, doesn’t mean that I wasn’t.

Then stop. No one is forcing you to either respond to me or post that
you can deal with me very easily. Stop both or stop neither.

>Where do you think I got the typed-in stuff that I posted in Soapbox,
>Poli-Phil, Debate, etcetera. That much typing is a pain (literally) for
>me – so I took advantage of Danny Keren’s posts, complete with
>attributions, among others.

Those conferences are not here. You have not been here and you only
showed up when you found that Dahlman was here. He was posting much too
long before you showed up for you to pretend you knew it from the
beginning.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:25 PDT 1996
Article: 50956 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.communism.moderated,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Differences between Communisism and Socialism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:45:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:50:00 -0700, Jordi Sod
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Jul 1996 20:51:22 GMT, J-Marc wrote:
>>
>> >I am not communist but think there is good thing in socialim and communism.
>> >Marx was only a pragmatic without emotion but he participates to the 19th century’s way of
>> >thinking which was very anti-religious. In fact the communism is another religious way of
>> >thinking the world with this particular viewing of “human action”. Marx was evil but may be
>> >pardonnable.
>>
>> If you don’t mind I don’t see anything good about Marx or anything that
>> has come from his garbage. It has only worked economically when
>> implemented as did Mussolini and Hitler did. Every implementation of
>> every variation has had to rely upon force and deprivation of individual
>> liberty.

>This, of course, comes from a holocaust revisionit who dooesn’t realize
>that the fascist economic system had little to do with communism.

Both Hitler and Mussolini had quite different opinions on the matter.

But of course you disagee with them.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50957 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 04:46:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:19:15 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Go argue with Alec G. on this point. He has 1600 hours of religious
>> education. He says there was no provision for conversion.

>Try again, Matt. *YOU* are the one that said that there was no provision
>for conversion.

>Now you turn around and take the other side of the argument?!?

>Make up your mind, Matt!

To remind you of the full, uneditted context.

On 15 Jul 1996 11:48:02 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
>>which is not conversion either, fool.
>>

>Try again, Matt. It says sacrifice – which is a rite reserved for Jews
>and not guests – not meal.

>>>to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>>>procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>>>Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>>>If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

Go argue with Alec G. on this point. He has 1600 hours of religious
education. He says there was no provision for conversion.

=====

Even you can see that the claim is that EXODUS, which has nothing to do
with your position having to do with anything regarding the Hebrew /
Israelite / Jewish split but rather that it is strictly in the Hebrew /
Israelite times.

Explain it to him some time.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:27 PDT 1996
Article: 50969 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:21:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:16:28 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> At the time of the Roman Empire there was no Poland making this feat
>> rather an achievement without parallel in history.

>You mean – that the entire geographic region where Poland is simply
>appeared one day?

>A miracle!!

I mean there was no nation of Poland. Or do you claim there was a
United States during the period of the Roman Empire also? But even you
have identified not only when but who invited them into Poland and of
course you know that was long after the Empire period.

So what is your point in attempting this digression?

To use your own term, you are contradicting yourself.

>> My orginal observation was that they were already in the Roman Empire
>> making migrating into it an achievement in the same league.

>Your original challenge was that someone show how the Jews reached
>Eastern Europe without coming from Khazaria.

Not mine, sorry. Better to check the thread.

>Now you contend that they were part of the Roman empire by conquest and
>that’s how they got there?

>Could you please stay on one side of an argument, Matt?

>It confuses things when you argue against yourself.

>Even more when you lose the argument!

You appear not to be able to keep in mind what I have said. Perhaps you
are confusing me with someone else.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 07:36:28 PDT 1996
Article: 50970 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:40:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:05:16 -0700, Bud wrote:

>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Brlhagen) writes:
>>
>> [A whole lot of empty rhetoric deleted]
>>
>> # 5 – What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was
>> # no attempted genocide of the Jews? The linch-pin in this
>> # argument is simply that there were no gas chambers, none,
>> # zero, nada. There is no evidence of gas chambers that an
>> # objective person can find credible.
>>
>> Yawn. Try to *prove* what you state. There’s plenty of such
>> evidence, which a great many courts, for instance, including
>> a great many German courts, found very credible.
>>
>> Try to *prove* what you claim. Don’t just make void statements.
>>
>> # There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints
>>
>> There you go. This is an outright lie; there are orders, there
>> are blueprints, there are documents. Some are routinely
>> posted here.
>>
>> You’re simply lying. Many times. Any reason I should go on reading
>> your article?
>>
>> Ok, I did go on reading…
>>
>> [Regarding testimonies of SS-men about gassings]
>>
>> # Most are “coerced” confessions, as in “sign this or we’ll pull
>> # some more of your fingernails out. Or we’ll turn your wife and
>> # children over to the Russians.”
>>
>> Another outright lie. There is no proof that *one* such testimony
>> was obtained by such means. Moreover, a great many such testimonies
>> were given to German courts, and I haven’t yet seen one “revisionist”
>> who claimed the Germans tortured these German SS-men into confessing.
>>
>> It seems you’re a pathological liar; if not, why are you lying
>> so much? Please explain.
>>
>> -Danny Keren.

>well, there it is! Name-calling, accusations, ad nauseum!

It is all they have. What else would you expect?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 10:59:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51018 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:00:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 3:03:09 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:33:06 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Actually it would have a preferred diffusion direction and until it
>> displaced the ordinary air in the column it would not start coming out,
>> under your presumption of course. This takes us further from the 10-15
>> minute times to death that are most commonly reported.

>Not true if the tube is of a small diameter.

>Only a fairly wide tube would act differently.

>The rise in pressure as the HCN outgassed would push it downward.

What do you mean if? The holohuggers have determined that it diffuses
outward by preference. You owe it to yourself to read what they have
posted and claimed and evaluate it for yourself.

In fact they have concocted inner and outer mesh layers such that the ZB
forms nearly a single layer between them allow the plenty of internal
and external exchange and your lighter gas to rise. And we still need
those 10-15 minute times to death.

>> According to people here they were wire mesh columns with very strange
>> contrivances but no means of anchoring them to the floor. A diagram of
>> one is on Nizkor for what that is worth. Wire mesh does not equate to
>> sealed tubes.

>A wire mesh at the bottom of a tube?! Really, Matt. That’s no different
>than a sprinkling on the floor!

Save that in your view it rises. But then, you need to query the
engineering expert holohuggers here who have declared that this works as
to the exact construction.

It is alternately multiple wiremesh layers or and fit into a hollow
concrete column with holes in it.

Do not take my description for it. Try to get a description (none of
which are supported in the literature) of what these things were like.

>> Therefore it is still diffusing upwards according to you.
>>
>Only if the tube is open at both ends.

>If the tube is open at the bottom, it would be forced downwards.

Of course not forced. Convection currents arise because hot air a
lighter. In fact their single outer layer leaving a central inner
column with no ZB creates a simple convection within the column.

Should you bother to question these folks you will find they have
created a complexity beyond the realm of believability and certainly
contrary to fundamental engineering.

Simple engineering for a gas chamber, the Kremas are being heated in
expectation of use. Warm up some stones, drop those in first, then the
ZB. It all comes out in seconds and the quantity required comes down to
acheive the 10-15 minutes reported.

>> >However, from the descriptions of the victims actions, such as climbing
>> >on each other to get away from the gas, any release into the chamber
>> >would have been from below.
>>
>> And as it is going upwards, everyone drops to the floor.

>No, matt. As it is going upwards they see the gas, get the first whiff
>and panic, trying to escape upwards away from it.

Smell? Good sir, read the fine stories. These were people who were
right off of the trains. Days in transit without food, bathing or any
form of sanitation. Then they are crammed in thousands to the room.
Just what leads you to believe they will notice the rather mild smell of
almonds over that mass of human stench?

Sorry about the game there, the gas is colorless also. There is nothing
to see, despite “eyewitnesses” referring to clouds of it.

Nice try but it has nothing to do with HCN.

And remember we have even been informed that the tearing agent was
removed. Of course those who said it failed to note the date was years
earlier. But in any event, in that kind of super-locker room
environment, tearing would not be unexpected.

>> >A long tube into which the Zyklon was dropped and which was then sealed
>> >at the top, would act as an obstacle to the HCN and it would flow out
>> >the bottom.
>>
>>
>> >Now you have the problem of trying to “advance to the rear” on the
>> >above.
>>
>> You really need to get up to speed upon what the holohuggers here are
>> claiming so that you can address their claims.
>>
>I am talking about your claims Matt.

You have shown not one indication of knowing what they are. Why not
simply recite them as a test?

>From what information I’ve gathered, the Nazis actually tried several
>methods. The fastest to kill – opening a hole in the ceiling and dumping
>a pile of Zyklon into the chamber – was the slowest to clear, ect.

Sorry. The quickest method was throwing it in and the people died
instantaneously and that is from Hoess himself and he witnessed it
wearing a gasmask.

But the claims of the holohuggers here is that a complex arangement of
wire mesh could kill thousands in 10-15 minutes with a couple kilos of
of ZB.

Again, you have no idea what you are defending.

>> >> It is always good to have someone on the “other side” support what
>> >> really would happen.
>>
>> >I do. Too bad it contradicts what you’ve been claiming.
>>
>> Rather I suggested that it would move upward and a chemist said I was
>> wrong. As an engineer, you have a feel for what would really happen.

>In an open area, he was right.

Precisely the opposite. He said that in an open area it would not. You
really should read who you are supporting here.

Only in a closed or pipe condition of a
>certain size range would it move otherwise. Too small a pipe and it’s
>forced down. Too large and it simply diffuses unless excessive amounts
>are used.

>In the dilutions discussed *WITHIN* the chamber, the mixing would
>happen. Optimal is dropping on the floor, since the nature of the gas
>would be to move out and up.

>Place it near the ceiling and the nature would be to move out and down –
>*AWAY* FROM THE CONSTRAINT!

And it all has to happen such that the half lethal dose is achieved in
much less than 10-15 minutes through these complex systems with their
natural convection systems in the design.

>> >I wish that you could put up a decent argument, Matt. I hate looking
>> >like a net bully.
>>
>> Your problem is that you are not aware of what you are supporting on
>> this conference and you are attacking what I have not said.

>I am quite aware.

That is clearly impossible.

>You have changed your contentions to meet the facts.

You have claimed I am saying things that I am not and have not, such
that “HCN was unsuitable” as the most obvious example.

>Please try harder.

>This is too easy.

>And – avoid shifting ground.

>You just make yourself look worse.

As you have no idea what my grounds were in the first place, you have no
basis for saying that I am changing anything. And very clearly you have
not bothered in the least to look at what I have said.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 10:59:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:22:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 5:24:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:08:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Assume in the next moment that Baysian statistics apply.
>>
>> I gave it a fair test in reliability and failure rate predictions.
>> Didn’t work. The traditional serial/parallel calculations did work to
>> establish sparing levels.

>We gave it a test as well. The data gathered was for standard MTBF
>models and gave excessive counts in sparing. When used with
>appropriately, BayEsian (Americans mangle the spelling) methods gave
>more accurate answers and resulted in a lower quantity of spares, with
>OCA still accounted for.

Different results. What can I say? Different assumptions were
obviously used. This is nothing unusual. However, the objective is not
to establish the lowest sparing levels but the correct sparing levels.
Ours were as correct as anything can be, Bayesian was wrong.

>We use both now, as appropriate for the part.
>>
>> But then, as other than an academic exercise, perhaps you can point to
>> some of it successful applications. Note successful is a requirement.

>Just did. The next time that you make a phone call, the switch was
>spares provisioned with Bayesian statistics.

You said lower, not successful. Those are different criteria, depending
upon whether you are meeting a budget or doing the right thing for the
people in the field. Phones don’t matter save in profits and piss off.
Weapons systems errors get people killed, given a war of course.

I always had the latter in mind.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 10:59:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:26:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
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On 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 15 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>> Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ….
>>>>
>>>> What was there to correct. It is not Zyklon B. It has no direct
>>>>relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
>>>>effect upon evaporation.
>>
>>> Once again your eagle eye and astounding reading comprehension display
>>>themselves. Let me cut it down to something small enough for your
>>>attention span to deal with. This is the silly notion which needs
>>>correction:
>>
>>>>>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>>>>> the cold flor but I don’t think that they might have been long
>>>>>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>>>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>>
>>> Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>>
>> Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?

> They were present only in Kremas II and III. As I said, you have
>never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
>because you neither understand nor remember what you read. How can you
>possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
>this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?

In fact you were arguing that the “gassing design features” of the LK
were improved in IV and V until I pointed out that a different building
entirely was used in IV according to Nizkor.

You should work real hard to remember what you were arguing and at least
learn to admit your errors.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 11:58:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51028 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Any day now”?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:52:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 3:55:08 AM PDT 1996
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:24:03 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> The way it goes but then the web master and mistress and perhaps all of
>> the “contributors” will be part of it and they will be in a US court
>> where RICO applies.
>>

>Try again.

>1. RICO doesn’t apply. I checked. No such law in Canada. Nizkor is in
>Canada.

Of course it does not apply in Canada but look for the US affiliations
of the contributors and donation collectors. It applies to them.

>2. Go get a Florida judge to agree. Ken McVay sues you in Canada for
>Barratry and the judge hands it to him. IOW – there ain’t no such law
>here and you’re talking civil anyway.

Let him do so. Worse was threatened here before you arrived.

>> where they are not operating for example) then the state laws apply and
>> the case can be filed in that state. In other words, should anyone

>And Ken sues you here for twice what you got in your suit – and wins
>because he says “It’s that Giwer fella, your honour.”

He has to collect under a law and judicial decision that does not exist
in the US and I have no partners in Canada to connect me.

>> The internet telephone call capability will seal the link between 900
>> numbers and the web for ever the densest judge. That means any suit can
>> be brought in any state. And it will be under US law.

>Meaning that Ken will ignore the suit completely.

>THIS IS CANADA, MATT! WAKE UP!

>Who gives a shit about some judge in some state in the US?

The donation collectors in Texas for a start as well as the US
contributors of course.

>It’s been thru the courts already. No long-arm statutes apply – period.

In either direction of course. So what are you trying to say?

>> Meaning it is an extreme case when costs can be recovered not a standard
>> procedure. Meaning a jury can be empaneled. Meaning the wildly
>> litigious sentiment of the US is in full force and effect and will
>> govern. The only issue is whether or not the judgement can cross
>> national boundaries.

>No jury, NADA, Matt. You can’t get it across the border.

Who would want one across the border? There are plenty of conspirators
in the US.

>You have to sue here – and Ken can get the dream team for his lawyers –
>you’ll have to pay.

Are you aware it has to take effectively malfeasance on the part of the
plaintif’s attorney to even get that considered down this way?

>> >Matt, you’re slipping.
>>
>> >Cut your losses while you can.
>>
>> Is my statement false? Is it the wrong person with the same name?
>>
>No – I was being as inane as you with this lawsuit nonsense.

Can you not find the information on your own?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 12:44:20 PDT 1996
Article: 51040 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:42:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 3:45:11 AM PDT 1996
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On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:10:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> But that is contrary to what a doc the holohuggers love have posted.

>My calculation was based on the simplest set of figures presented and
>show an adequate speed under sub-optimal conditions.

Please present your calculation for review.

>Since I did not use all of the data that might be out there, any
>purported “contradiction” would be due to my constraining the
>conditions.

>IOW – it ain’t contrary, Matt. It simply says that Zyklon-B has the
>necessary behavior to do the job.

I will be awaiting the post of your calculations. Until then, you are
blowing smoke.

>> Your first increment is 30 minutes.

>9=30?!?! No way!

Tell them, not me.

>BTW – the beginning curve simply steepens if the total time becomes
>extended. IOW – if it takes 3 days to become indetectable, the time for
>the initial outgassing doesn’t change. The knee just gets sharper.

>Slow-release carriers use inhibitors. There was no inhibitor here, Matt.

The carrier itself was the inhibitor else there was no need to ever have
a carrier, the stuff could have been canned as a liquid like propane.

>> >Answer: 9 minutes. Half the gas would have to be released within the 1st
>> >9 minutes to reach that low a level. 75% within 18 minutes.
>>
>> >Given that the rate of out-gassing is even faster for the first few
>> >minutes (3/2 power approx), we get 60-70% in less than 10 minutes.
>>
>> >Pretty efficient and fast, don’t you think?
>>

>>
>> And of course you omit consideration of nucleated condensation on the
>> bodies and walls when the Polish winter air starts ventilating the
>> rooms.

>You just can’t stop inserting foot in mouth, can you?

>A room packed to the limit (not overpacked to crushing, Matt – you
>already lost that one in Debate.) with heat-generating bodies would be
>intolerably hot within minutes.

Excuse me, I was posting the claims of others as to the 20+ per square
meter. I knew that was impossible. I am the one who said it was
impossible.

>Also, with that much human flesh in the room, a large quantity of air is
>displaced and there is that much less for the HCN to outgas into.

>Try again, Matt.

I have done that. Take into account in your calculations the mass when
you post them.

>As a pure engineering study, the gas chambers worked, Zyklon-B worked,
>the whole thing worked.

That is what the “eyewitnesses” claimed but they claimed things
impossible to HCN as you well know.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 12:44:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:21:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 4:23:38 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:16:32 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> I even saw films of one of them and the blood groove and drainage path
>> was pointed out. The term horns was quite disappointing though. It
>> appears to be a term that was born of translation into English rather
>> than having started as an English description.

>I saw the stuff, too, Matt. Several times. There were no altars in front
>of the statues. Those were separate and were assumed to have been moved,
>but not verified.

First off the statues were hand sized so “in front of” would be stretch
of description. Second, as the blood sacrifice is well recorded as
being the provence of the cult of Yahway.

The “hole” in the 7-in-1 statue being for the god who image could not be
made” why would one expect an image of Yahweh in relationship to his
altars?

There were alternate opinions but those who had them appeared to be
searching for the literal truth of the OT which clearly prejudiced their
position.

>> >Jeez! Don’t you ever read what I write??
>>
>> What makes you think I am dependent upon what you write?

>Your tendency to quote me as a source – more accurately, misquote me.

I did not in this case. At most I suggested you be asked by the
monotheist defenders.

>> >There was a worship of a dual-deity. An ascetic worship – no
>> >sacrificial altars – that lasted until the time of Ezra and the
>> >encoding of Leviticus.
>>
>> The particular statue on the show was of seven gods. There was also an
>> inscription making reference to Astarte as the consort of Yahweh God.

>Seven gods on one statue? Odd – they showed *2* statues. Only 2, with
>smaller surrounding ones portraying the subordinates – not at the same
>level.

Of course not on the same level, “Thou shalt have no other gods before
me,” remember that one?

>The “Shema” “prayer”, in fact, was an exhortation to worship the lord of
>these godlings only.

Those below Zeus could be described as godlings also, at least those
whose birth was not dependent upon Zeus.

>”Hear, Oh Ysroel! The LORD is OUR god. The LORD is ONE!”

>IOW – stop the worship of his subordinates along with the Big Kahuna and
>stop worshipping the Big Kahuna’s main squeeze.

We both agree the other six were purged.

>However, this is not the equivalent of seven Big Kahunas as implied by
>your prior claim that Ezra eliminated the other tribes in his quest to
>eliminate the other gods.

In previous statements, sorry you missed them, I made reference to the
first commandment in particular the “other gods before me” statement. I
thought it was a given that the Christian translation of “false gods
before me” was nonsense.

If there was only one other god then there was only one other god to be
“before.”

>> >The worship place was found at the foot of the FIRST TEMPLE, Matt!
>>
>> That was in reference to the goddess cult.

>Not a cult. More likely the original dual theism of the region, still
>carried on as always.

That does not explain the 7-in-1 statues. Nor does it explain the
plural other gods in the 1st commandment.

>> >Memory like a damned colander!
>>
>> The altars and 7 in 1 statues have been found all over as I said. You
>> appear not to have updated your information in some years. This stuff
>> is so old that it was on two of the six segments on the Middle East on
>> the series Aercheology.

>Like I said – memory like a colander. I saw those shows too, Matt. This
>year again, in fact.

Very good that you saw it. It has nothing to do with my memory. You
were merely trying to repeat what you think I was basing my case upon.
It only peripherally dealt with you.

I have noticed the plural “other gods” since the ’60s.

>> > mnc> The physical evidence is so well known it has been
>> > mnc> incorporated into a TV series.
>>
>> >Interpretation, Matt. Prove it.
>>
>> Evidence again. Proof is for mathematics.

>Ground shift, Matt. Evidence is a ground shift on your part. You’ve
>demanded what amounts to a degree of proof on the issue of the holocaust
>that is excessive to the point of mathematical proof. I am requiring
>that you do the same here.

I have not said other than evidence. I have consistently eschewed any
claim of proof. There is no shift on my part, only your claim of it.

>Prove your contentions. Have a forensic team check the “BLOOD ALTARS”
>for actual blood. Assure that its age is appropriate.

Take a look at the blood grooves — unless you would like to hold they
were to let the rain run off, is the Middle East, no less.

>Then I’ll require proof as to the honesty of the forensic team of
>course.

Proof? How strange. They only offer evidence.

>If you cant provide that level of evidence, then your arguments about
>the gassings and the rest go out the window.

>Your rules, Matt – a double-edged sword.

>Did you think you could shift the track?

Why do you not learn to use evidence and instead of proof?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 12:44:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:25:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 4:27:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:10:25 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Watch for it and read the credits so you can get the organizations that
>> contributed to the production. Then you can contact them yourself for
>> further information.

>As useless as CODOH’s web page. Not physical evidence, merely quoting
>names.

>Your standards hoisting you, Matt.

>>
>> But then the only disagrement under discussion at this point is whether
>> it was 2 or 7 gods, not that it was 1 or 7.

>No! No! No! It’s you who says 1 god, except when there were more!
>Remember, you are using the bible as documented evidence.

>Stick to the track, Matt!

Why do you insist upon misrepresenting what I have said. I have always
said the greatest of the seven like a Zeus.

>The fact that there were more is not part of this.

>Prove that the Bible is a valid document, Matt.

>Prove that Dresden was firebombed, Matt.

>Physical evidence, Matt.

Already presented of course and please learn what my rules are and that
I have not represented any gassing documents as having been forged.

You really should pay attention to what is being posted.

>> Unless you are on the 2 side, you need to be addressing Alec also. Or
>> are you in fact on the 2 side?

>Inconsequential, cab driver.

>Physical evidence is what we’re talking about.

That is correct. If you do not think aercheologists have the evidence
in the terms of their discipline you should straighten them out. I am
certain they will be eternally grateful.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 19:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51080 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: just who is missing and how to do you know?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:47:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 12:49:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I like the question. Just who is missing and how do you know? On the
unaccounted for people from before and after WW II we have some 32
million.

That is a lot of people. But, quite interestingly, there is a group
that claims to know exactly what happened to all of the fraction of the
32 million who were Jewish.

To bad that group can not apply their psychic powers to what happened to
the other 29 million. It would be a great service.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 19:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.nd.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 05:55:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 13 12:57:32 AM CDT 1996
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:08:10 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >Get a job, punk. No nazihugger here willing to give this
>> >person a job? The punk had to retire at the age of 46,
>>
>> Chose to, youngster.
>>
>> >apparently because no one wanted him anymore (not to mention
>> >his other personal problems). That’s one of the reasons for his
>> >hostility.
>>
>> There was not much call for clever ways to kill Russians. But then if
>> you want the Cold War back again, I will certain cash in on it. I would
>> prefer poverty to its return.
>>
>> You are very strange to wish otherwise.

>Chose to retire at 46, hmm? Let’s see, you claim to have graduated in ’67,
>and assuming a normal 4 year program you’d be 22…24 years later retired,
>that would be 1991 or ’92, about the same time as the USSR fell.

>Jeez, I’m amazed. Giwer has related a series of internally consistent
>statements.

The Cold War stand down began in 1988 with the reduction of DEFCON
level. It was when they stopped maintaining most of their missiles on
the military side, subordinated their military to fiscal concerns and
took the first steps towards establishing an international exchange rate
for their currency. Technically what killed them was their Marxist
refusal to put a cost on money and thus the ruble had no exchange value
with any but their allies.

The end finally came with the Gulf War which was not against Iraq but
against the Red Army. It was to make the case that it was powerless
against the US. Gorby had gotten control of the KGB and the CPSU and
with that defeat of Russian military equipment he was able to get
control of the the Army. There were only three power structures in the
SU. He had them all.

Their fate was sealed after that war. Their last serious source of hard
currency was from sales of military hardware. After that war it was
selling for 10% of its prewar price, i.e. a drug on the market you
couldn’t give away.

The first five year troop reduction plan was passed in 1990 and we are
in its last effective year. There should be another troop reduction
plan in the current DOD appropriations bill but I have not taken the
time to dig it out. If you get passed what is encapsulated for public
consumption you will find the disagreements are over what kind of
weapons are best for the much smaller military we will have in another
five years.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:14:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 3:16:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:43:02 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> It appears you are saying that there is no relationship between today’s
>> Jews and the Israelites or Hebrews.
>>
>> Is that correct?

>Maybe I should type more slowly, although such selectivity as yours
>takes more effort than stupidity.

>No, Matt, I don’t. I merely point out that Jews are the successors of
>the Hebrews, rejecting the priesthood concept (although keeping the line
>of descent open for minor rituals) and switching to a teaching,
>non-proselytizing approach.

Before I quote you as saying these are the only differences would you
like to add any others?

>To accuse the Jews of events that are part of a mythology to begin with
>is to require all Xians to accept the equivalent “blame”, since the
>origins of Xtianity are via the same history and mythology.

Find with me. Blame them all. That makes the mythical Nazi genocide
just one more mythicl genocide of fellow schismatics. Makes it all sort
of poetic.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Email ‘bombings’?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:07:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 5:09:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:59:48 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

mantra also deleted

>>A Tale of two Gassings

>[Remainder of unsolicited and irrelevant web page deleted — it’s
> considered very rude to post an entire page when the URL would
> suffice and when it’s not related to the topic of discussion.]

>Mr. Giwer, last I heard, you were going to revise this piece. I had
>told you that I was going to wait to reply until you were through
>revising it. How are you coming on your revision?

>Posted; emailed to Mr. Raven, who is hosting this piece on his web
>site, but not to Mr. Giwer, who has said he wants no email from me.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

It is very rude, not to mention insulting, to spam the mantra one more
time. It is called spamming. This is an alt conference. You folks
spam it then I return the favor.

Knock it off.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51133 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:21:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:23:48 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 23:29:36 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:

>>And Giwer enters the same elite group as Scientology and Canter and Siegel.
>>Jeez, you keep good company, Matt.

>He’ll do nearly anything to avoid talking about on-topic issues, eh?
>Dresden, for instance… he seems unwilling to deal with his
>failure there… pity, that.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>———————–| Prince Myshkin’s Giwer Bait Sold Here
> |————————————–
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this …
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:18:10 GMT

Amazing what some of the heroes of the holohuggers will say when under
oath.

1/24/85
Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom,
states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were gassed at
Auschwitz, in spite of the fact
that the entire number of Jews deported from France were only
75,721. Vrba claims he
arrived at his count “scientifically” by having listened to the
language spoken by the inmates
at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The author of “I
Cannot Forgive” next
confessed that his book was “an artistic picture … not a document
for a court,” in spite of
the fact that Vrba’s testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee
Board and the Auschwitz
Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his written and
pictorial descriptions of
Auschwitz crematoria were a result of guessing, based on “what I
heard it might look like.”
Oops!

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51134 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:22:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 12:10:00 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST, [email protected]ms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>>>that is about it) content.
>>>>
>>>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
>>
>>> What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer’s
>>> trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence! We will quickly find out
>>> to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!
>>
>> It looks like I can offer a gig for $500 a month but nothing a firm
>> yet.

> I guess Matt isn’t committed to _free_ speech after all.

I have looked into it further and find it will be about 800 Meg on a gig
drive because of the overhead. Is that close enough?

Want a 2 gig drive? Same overhead for maybe $750 a month. That is not
firm yet. I will await serious inquiries.

>> I will be laughing all the way to the bank.
>>
>> Interested?

> Well, if that is the rate for all, whether you agree with them or not,
>then I doubt you will get many customers. However, if you are engaging in
>discriminatory pricing, then of course all one need do to show how stupid
>you Dresdenhuggers are is to come in under an alias or via an agent. Then
>there will be a juicy breach of contract suit should you try to take down
>the pages or change the terms retroactively.

Try to get that price any place else. The only lack of customers is
that there are barely a handful of users in the world who might be
interested in that much space.

Would you like to forward a check?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:44 PDT 1996
Article: 51136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for Matt Giwer
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:17:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 10:20:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:05:46 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:58:22 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >Mr. Giwer:
>> >
>> >Once again, I ask this question. You said:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> >>> In fact his policy grew from his experience commanding the garrison at
>> >> >>> Vicksberg. There he became appalled by the civilian response to his
>>
>>
>> >I responded with:
>> >> >In article ,
>> >> >[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> >>Interesting statements. Where did you get the idea that “scorched earth”
>> >> >>came from Vicksburg? (Note spelling.) It just so happens that I’m reading
>> >> >>a few books on the very subject right now, and NONE of them come to the
>> >> >>same conclusion that you do.
>> >
>> >For one thing, the scorched earth policy came from SHERMAN, not Grant.
>> >
>> >So are you going to respond to my direct question? It is NOT insulting, it
>> >is NOT a personal attack. It is a simple question.
>>
>> I am talking about Sherman also.
>
>Mr. Giwer:
>
>You said “…HIS policy grew from his experience…”
>
>HIS in this sentence referred to GRANT.
>
>It is SINGULAR.
>
>If you were talking about Sherman as well, the correct word would have
>been THEIR.
>
>It’s fascinating that you can nitpick any post to pieces that you disagree
>with, but when faced with simple facts, you respond with, “Oh, yeah, I
>meant that too.”
>
>More important, of course, is WHY we are even discussing this in
>alt.revisionism. Forgive my lapse of memory, but how did this topic get
>started in the first place?

You appear to believe Grant was in charge of Vicksburg.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:45 PDT 1996
Article: 51137 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:20:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 10:23:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Jul 1996 16:44:34 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 16 Jul 1996 12:51:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>> The patterns of support among ethnic groups duirn the American
>>>Revolution has never been researched? You’re joking, aren’t you
>>>Matty-poo? Do you ever visit a library? Maybe you and L’il Tommy should
>>>go together on a joint venture of discovery.
>>
>> Should you try it some day you might learn something.
>>
>> But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the US
>>prior to the Revolution what was not from Britain?

> Cute troll.

> None, of course, and none from Britain either. How could anyone
>immigrate into the US prior to the Revolution, given that by definition
>the US did not exist at that time?

Then what ethnic group studies do you think YFE is referring to?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:46 PDT 1996
Article: 51138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:05:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 8:08:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:13:36 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Since you are so bid on editting also, you know the citation was from
>> Exodus, a bit before the time of Ezra. But rather he connected Ezra
>> with monotheism whereas he puts the conversion debates post CE.

>Back to the track, Matt.

>Ezra was around 400 BCE – after the Babylonian exile.

>Ezra demanded that the conversions stop.

>Who said that they were a new thing?

>As for the Exodus citation – it’s relevant to counter your claim that
>there was no conversion mechanism for Hebrews. Check Dejanews for your
>own messages, Matt.

His claim is BS. His conclusion however disagrees with you. You two
straighten it out.

>In fact, Paul eliminated the dietary restrictions and circumcision
>requirements

Paul only get credit for eliminating circumcision. The dietary
restrictions were gone before he shows up in the story.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:46 PDT 1996
Article: 51139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:03:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 10:05:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Jul 1996 11:43:31 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Even you can see that the claim is that EXODUS, which has nothing to do
>>with your position having to do with anything regarding the Hebrew /
>>Israelite / Jewish split but rather that it is strictly in the Hebrew /
>>Israelite times.

>Naughty, naughty, Matt! No ground-shifting!

>It was one Matt Giwer who stated that there was no biblical provision
>for conversion and that, therefore, many *JEWS* were not really Jews.

>To assure fair representation of your claim, just scan DejaNews.

>Try to stay on track – and at least keep notes. Your memory is as leaky
>as a colander – and a tad too selective.

I do so quite well. But is appears your definition of “ground shifting”
to be pointing out what is actually being said.

Now you and him go fight. He says conversion was from whenever Exodus
got started. You claim it started in the first century CE.

When you two come to an agreement, get back to me. I really don’t have
time to be arguing on two or more fronts at once.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 17 23:20:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:56:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 3:58:58 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 16 Jul 1996 07:47:09 -0400, [email protected] (Howard Eisenberger)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>Of course the ambiguity of Germans and German Jews is well known to
>>those who know the literature well.

>One is reminded of the symbolic story of the German Jew living in
>New York during WWII who had Hitler’s picture on his wall. Only
>the daily reminder of the horrors awaiting him there would let
>him master his longing for the homeland.

A dramatic story, a wish to return to antisemitism, worthy of the best
myth maker.

So who made up this one?

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 00:24:14 PDT 1996
Article: 51149 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:08:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 10:10:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Jul 1996 05:51:59 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>: >procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>: >Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>: >If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

>: It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
>: which is not conversion either, fool.

>No it isn’t. The Passover sacrifice is a specific *religious duty* as
>you would know had you taken the trouble (or had you the ability) to read
>the passage I referenced. The passage in question specifically excludes
>non-Israelites from partaking in it: vekhi yagur ittekha ger v`asah
>pessach la-YHWH, himmol lo khol zakhar v’az yiqrabh la`asotho, vehayah
>k’ezrach ha’aretz; vekhol `arel lo yokhal bo.” Note that the passage
>specifically states that he will be “k’ezrach ha’aretz”; clearly, this
>is something different than just inviting him to dinner.

Save the translation given is clearly an exception for the traveler, not
for the next door neighbor. Were I to bother to look it up, I would
expect to find it part of the hospitality due to strangers and this
being a statement that the Passover was not an exception.

>The politeness level of your discourse has been noted.

About time.

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>”I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards
>with very high IQs.”
> –J. Bronowski

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 07:21:11 PDT 1996
Article: 51182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer’s New Genocide track
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:12:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 4:14:53 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:10:27 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you are ever able to post anything in writing supporting your
>> position regarding what the founding of the US is based upo, please do
>> so. Mere assertion in the absense of evidence is quite meaningless.
>>
>> In fact it is a lot like gassing stories.
>>

>Try something as simple and straightforward as the concept of “Manifest
>Destiny”, Matt.

>Remove lid from barrel of fish. Insert shotgun. Fire!

That is rather stupid.

That was political rhetoric and not a founding document of the US. And
you know that.

In fact the third President, 16+ years after the founding was in a real
battle to actually buy that waste of money west of the Mississippi
River.

But then Canadians always believe they can repeat liberal slogans and
know all about the US. It is liberal and it is simplisitc.

>> >No, Matt. See the word at the top of that quote? It says
>> >R-E-P-E-A-T-I-N-G.
>>
>> >Just stay on track, Matt!
>>
>> >Have you ever been tested for Adult ADD?
>>
>> You have made a claim regarding what the US was founded on. I have
>> pointed out what the US was founded on. You consider that a diversion.

>Yes, Matt.

>Please prove that the Bible is accurate as a historical document.

>Get physical evidence of the Red Sea parting.

I agree Moses never existed. What is your problem?

>> Is a silly liberal truism supposed to be accepted simply because you
>> repeat it?

>Custer and his Indian killing.

>Wounded Knee.

Are you now claiming the US was found upon Wounded Knee?

Or are you claiming it was founded upon Custer’s Indian scouts who lead
him to his targets?

>> Actually there is no claim of omnipotence and quite a bit of contrary
>> information. It was no more than one of their tribal deities, simply
>> the first among them, like Zeus. And like Zeus, pretty hot stuff but
>> not in the omnipotent league.

>You are a mortal. Wanna argue with the big Kahuna?

The Kahuna of Moses? Get your ass in gear for once.

>Prove he exists. It’s in the document that you claim is evidence.

Any time you are willing to publically state that there is no basis for
anything in Judaism for anything more than any other philosophy that is
fine with me. Judaism, Christianity, and the variants are in fact no
different from Marxism. All human invented and all total fantasy. But
you appear reluctant to admit that.

Why?

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 07:21:11 PDT 1996
Article: 51194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.akorn.net!news.his.com!news.walltech.com!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.PBI.net!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:21:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 11:23:20 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Holger Skok wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>…
>>> Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans
>>> are opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours
>>> or as few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature
>>> ranges from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not
>>> exactly proportional to time.
>>
>>And this is obviously complete bunk. The manual Lueftl cites here to
>>get his 32 hour figure is one concerned with fumigation. The manual
>>clearly states that the time it takes for the HCN to reach the desired
>>effect – i.e. kill all insects in the treated house – can be up to 32 hours
>>at low temperatures.
>>
>>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>>
>>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate
>>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning.

> And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc.
>In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
>circulation, far less time was required.

It is interesting that neither heaters nor powered circulation are
apparent in the “gas chambers” when the utility of these features was
very well known.

But, gee, self styled “experts” have found such obvious gas chamber
design features on the LK that “even they” can see them. Yet they lack
these obvious ones.

What is missing is much more interesting than what exists, as always.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 07:21:12 PDT 1996
Article: 51195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.akorn.net!news.his.com!news.walltech.com!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.PBI.net!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:21:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 11:23:40 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Holger Skok wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>…
>>> Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans
>>> are opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours
>>> or as few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature
>>> ranges from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not
>>> exactly proportional to time.
>>
>>And this is obviously complete bunk. The manual Lueftl cites here to
>>get his 32 hour figure is one concerned with fumigation. The manual
>>clearly states that the time it takes for the HCN to reach the desired
>>effect – i.e. kill all insects in the treated house – can be up to 32 hours
>>at low temperatures.
>>
>>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>>
>>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate
>>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning.

> And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc.
>In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
>circulation, far less time was required.

It is interesting that neither heaters nor powered circulation are
apparent in the “gas chambers” when the utility of these features was
very well known.

But, gee, self styled “experts” have found such obvious gas chamber
design features on the LK that “even they” can see them. Yet they lack
these obvious ones.

What is missing is much more interesting than what exists, as always.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51233 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:22:52 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 19:50:10 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>Mind you, if he did attempt such a lawsuit, I would be forced to
>>counter-file, and, if that happens, Giwer is toast.

>Mr. Giwer, it appears, is going to sponsor a Nizkor holiday in
>Florida, all expenses paid. He will, of course, be questioned
>with regard to every single article he has posted here since
>he acquired a modem – the jury is entitled to nothing less.

>I must tell you, however, that I doubt Mr. Giwer will be able
>to sustain this holiday for the period envisioned – however,
>one cannot say with certainty until his assets have been put
>to auction.

>We trust you will at least join us for 4-5 weeks, as Florida
>is said to be quite delightful in the Fall and Winter, and, of
>course, it’s going to be, er, “on the house.”

>Let me know if your wife will be joining us – remember,
>there’s no cost to you.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>———————–| Prince Myshkin’s Giwer Bait Sold Here
> |————————————–
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

Some day you folks will learn just how rare cost reimbursement is in the
US. Our charming president vetoed legislation that would have made it
common. Live with it.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:22 PDT 1996
Article: 51234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:22:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:51:53 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> > There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to McVay’s
>> > actionable site. It is clearly racketeering under US law.
>>
>> So (yawn) call up the damn prosecutor and start the criminal case.
>>
>> Or sue us. Or whatever you’re planning on doing.
>>
>> Quit telling us how you’re going to censor us: just go ahead and do it.

>Oh, don’t worry about it. If he tries to close Nizkor, just mirror
>everything on the Thomas Paine (?) web site. After all, no censorship
>based on content was the promise.

Ready to send a check? At least they would have a decent server.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freedom of speech
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:23:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:39:18 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># There is no freedom when the people do not believe in it.

>Get a job. It will be good for you, and make you less hostile
>to the world.

># Here is the problem, unless everyone supports this freedom
># it will be lost. That anyone excuses censorship of ideas is
># a person who does not belong on the internet.

>Get a job. It will be good for you, and make you less hostile
>to the world.

># Fuck them and the keyboard they rode in on.

>Get a job. It will be good for you, and make you less hostile
>to the world.

It is quite amusing that you folks only believe me when I say something
that you can interperate as negative.

Why is it you have not had a suspicion that I do have a job but got you
off of hunting for it with the claim so that you would not be hassling
my employer?

Why is it you assume that self-employed is not a possibility?

Why is it you folks continue to looks like such fools?

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:23:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:35:22 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Not to mention that 15 pages goes far beyond fair use …
>>
>> Perhaps someone should contact the publisher?

>Mr. Giwer here suggests copyright terrorism as a proper action to take
>in order to halt the dissemination of information about the Holocaust.
>You can cut the hypocrisy with a knife.

>”My thanks to CNN Interactive and others for not suing over the theft
>of the above images.” http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/whatsay.html

If you ask real nice, I will teach you about the down and dirty side of
copyrights some day. In the mean time, ask youself why George Lucas
lost his copyright to the term Star Wars. It was very foolish but he
lost it and it was for political reasons.

>(Note: I’m explicitly suggesting that people _not_ contact the owners
>of the copyrighted images Mr. Giwer has stolen at the above URL,
>because, unlike Mr. Giwer, I don’t try to shut people up just because
>I disagree with them. Yes, Mr. Giwer is breaking the law. But I
>don’t bust every copyright violation I see on the net, so it would be
>hypocritical of me to bust Mr. Giwer.)

That is the opposite of what was suggested the first time around on this
subject. Several were “reporting” it and I never received a word on the
subject.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 7:23:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:40:00 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>## Nizkor list a line of pages from this Peters book,
>## totaling maybe 15 pages.

>8 pages actually, including the cover and the table
>of content.

># Not to mention that 15 pages goes far beyond fair use …

>You pathetic little zero. This is the best you can do?
>How about a comment on the scientific content?

It still violates fair use.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51239 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aaaw… suit
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:53:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 9:55:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:55:48 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Danny Mittleman wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) writes…
>> >
>> >P.S. Please initiate discussions with appropriate marketing agencies
>> >for the promotion and sale of the videotape. We’ll call it “Das Giwer
>> >Dokument.”
>> >
>> >I will provide archival space for the entire transcript, and
>> >put it on the web. Should be a real multimedia hit, don’t you
>> >think?
>>
>> Of course Moran will complain that no one has translated it from
>> Giweridian yet.
>>

>I had an archival trace on Matt, from Smartnet in ’91, through ILINK’s
>Opinion and Politics, Fidonet’s Debate, Controv, Law and Politics.

>Not even deliberately on all of them. I just copied the configs of my
>standard trace for each conference.

>I wonder what value these might have, Hmmmm?!?

The value of having had them? Or, given their quantity, are you going
to donate them another disk drive in order to carry all parts of every
thread? Or will you do like Davey-girl and leave them out of context?

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:53:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 9:55:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 16 Jul 1996 11:04:25 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran wrote:

>> Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth’s air. Carbon and
>>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading “cyanide
>>compound” or “group” with a full array of variations.

>How much cyanide is in the soil near the A-B complex?
>Why were there no measureable traces of cyanide in places in the camp
>other than the gas chambers? What natural processes produce cyanide
>only on the inside of gas chambers but nowhere else?

The no measurable traces elsewhere is quite easily explained, it was
never used in the other places sampled. The explanation is right there
in the report. There is no distinction between one time use and never
used. There was no attempt to obtain samples from places where it was
known to have been used, such as delousing chambers.

We have been through this before. Were you not paying attention? Why
do you continue to try to hang your hat on a inconclusive report?

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 12:21:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:21:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 10:24:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Jul 1996 21:00:35 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>> But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the US prior
>> to the Revolution what was not from Britain?

> Let’s see. French (Canada, Lousiana, Delaware), Spanish (Florida,
>Lousiana, and Texas), German and other middle European (Pennsylvania), Dutch
>(New York), African Blacks (many states). There was also quite a bit of immigration
>from Wales, Scotland, and Ireland which, while technically from the British Isles were
>dissenters trying to get away from the English oppression. Many of the highland
>survivors of the ’45 ended up in the Carolinas for example where for some reason they
>became ardent loyalists (including Flora MacDonald who hid Bommie Prince Charlie
>and later raised a regiment of highlanders to fight for the crown).

Now name some prior to the revolution.

From [email protected] Thu Jul 18 19:37:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51278 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 03:16:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 146
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 17 8:18:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 17 Jul 1996 11:47:58 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>>>of them were children and infants.
>>
>> I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
>>Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
>>calculator. Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?
>>
>>I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
>>the results.
>>
>> You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.

> The lack of concerted effort to go through the site and identify every
>ash particle, every bone fragment, etc., however ….

> Perhaps you could post _your_ calculations of how much labor effort it
>would take to recover and identify such remains from that volume of earth.
>Then you might contemplate other possible theories to explain lack of
>discovery of the requisite weight.

I have done so, everything but “showing the work” from grade school.

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:01 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains that need to
>> be found to support 3 million.

>Since they were murdered in several camps and the access to the majority
>of the sites was restricted for over 40 years, the amount that was
>detected was consistent, given the amount of sampling done, with the
>numbers murdered.

Be the first to demonstrate such consistancy. If you had been here long
enough you would know that this is a very old assertion and no one here
has been able to give even the slightest citation as to the such a thing
having happened.

As for being restricted, you mean restricted from western Europe. The
Poles are civilized people and would certainly have worked to recover
their remains and given them a proper burial.

Since you missed them … here is a chance to see the volume and weight
you have to find, more or less. Dismissing the numbers by saying
“children” is not acceptable. Only a recalculation is acceptable. I
expect a real engineer to have higher standards than holohuggers.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT

http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

Dec 26, 1995 @
Q. What’s left after a body is cremated? It’s ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term “ashes” is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
fragments missing. Buried in a 5 acre area. 400 tons of bone fragments
per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.

1,200,000 at Auschwitz. 3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
through a 1 centimeter mesh.

My thank again to Van Alstine for this website.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find. That was based upon the
internet cremation society’s statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications?

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz. This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side. On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep. However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

So back to Treblinka. There we have a 45 foot cube. Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments. But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.

But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments. So let me address that for our applied mathematician. The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything. He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core. The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.

If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.

For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51327 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:32:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 12:34:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 18 Jul 1996 04:11:27 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> > Let’s see. French (Canada, Lousiana, Delaware), Spanish (Florida,
>> >Lousiana, and Texas), German and other middle European (Pennsylvania),
>Dutch
>> >(New York), African Blacks (many states). There was also quite a bit of
>immigration
>> >from Wales, Scotland, and Ireland which, while technically from the British Isles
>were
>> >dissenters trying to get away from the English oppression. Many of the highland
>> >survivors of the ’45 ended up in the Carolinas for example where for some
>reason they
>> >became ardent loyalists (including Flora MacDonald who hid Bommie Prince
>Charlie
>> >and later raised a regiment of highlanders to fight for the crown).
>
>> Now name some prior to the revolution.

> I just did, dummy.

Very good. Now just was the ethic contribution to the revolution of the
French in Louisiana prior to the Louisiana Purchase?

> All of those named (and they were just examples) were *prior* to the
>Revolution. Please indicate any that think came later.

Very good. Now just was the ethic contribution to the revolution of the
French in Louisiana prior to the Louisiana Purchase?

> Now, I suppose, you’re going to tell me that you saw something on
>television once. You will, apparently make any stupid statement as long as it
>supports your nonsense.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51328 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:35:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 12:38:07 AM CDT 1996
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:09:31 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Jul 1996 21:00:35 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> >
>> >> But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the US prior
>> >> to the Revolution what was not from Britain?
>>
>> > Let’s see. French (Canada, Lousiana, Delaware), Spanish (Florida,
>> >Lousiana, and Texas), German and other middle European (Pennsylvania), Dutch
>> >(New York), African Blacks (many states). There was also quite a bit of immigration
>> >from Wales, Scotland, and Ireland which, while technically from the British Isles were
>> >dissenters trying to get away from the English oppression. Many of the highland
>> >survivors of the ’45 ended up in the Carolinas for example where for some reason they
>> >became ardent loyalists (including Flora MacDonald who hid Bommie Prince Charlie
>> >and later raised a regiment of highlanders to fight for the crown).
>>
>> Now name some prior to the revolution.

>Well, Champlain founded New France in 1604-1605 and the French expanded
>throughout eastern North America. Don’t tell me you never wondered how
>Detroit got its name, or Lake Champlain (yes, I know that Detroit did not
>become US territory until the War of 1812). Louisiana is named for the
>French king and its capital is, of course, Baton Rouge (Red Stick).

And of course you believe 1812 is prior to the Revolution. Were you
paying attention in class?

>After the English conquest of Canada in 1755 (the French and Indian Wars
>in America, Seven Years War in Europe) the English deported many of the
>Acadians out of what is now New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Price Edward Island
>and the Gaspe.

The US still does not own those territories and the way they are going
would not want to for the pomposity of them.

>Perhaps Giwer might take a moment to look up the poem by Longfellow called
>”Evangeline”. Based on the true story of Emmeline Labiche who was forced to
>settle in Maryland (note: *before* the Revolution) before she moved with
>many of the other Acadians to Louisiana where they became, suprise of
>surprises, Cajuns.

And thus contributed to the Revolution of course.

>Florida is, of course, a Spanish word. New York was first settled as
>Nieuw Nederland in 1609, among its more famous people being Minuit, who
>bought Manhatten Island, and Pieter Stuyvesant, governor.

>Jeez, this is odd. Foreign nationals know the US COnstitution better
>than Giwer, now it is demonstrated that they no US history better.
>Who’d a thunk it?

And of course you really believe all of these groups made contributions
to the revolution.

You should sue the school for a refund.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51337 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:38:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 12:41:22 AM CDT 1996
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On 18 Jul 1996 22:55:50 GMT, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the
> US prior to the Revolution what was not from Britain?

>Just what immigration was there to the US from Britain prior to the
>revolution? The answer to both questions is the same — none!

>The reason is that this is a trick question. There was no US prior
>to the revolution that created it.

>It is typical of Mr. Giwer’s method that he asks trick questions
>hoping to make a cheap debating point and hoping to get an excuse to
>throw in some insult as well, without the least interest in arriving
>at the truth.

Listen up, Schatzie,

This started with an idiot fool claim that there was a Jewish
contribution to the US Revolution.

Then it lead to a claim that the participation of many ethnics groups
had been studied.

I asked for examples and there has yet to be a one.

We agree, there were no such immigrations.

We agree, the fools claiming there were “ethnic” contributions are
fools.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51338 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:22:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 18 10:25:16 PM PDT 1996
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 13:46:26 -0700, [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article ,
>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>
>> >
>> >The Troll wrote:
>> >
>> >> [email protected] (Richard James Green) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
>> >> > blue. When it becomes wet, it is pink. When the dessicant just
>> >> > starts to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.
>> >>
>> >> But we know from the Degesh document on the formulation used
>> >> for fumigation that the carrier was wood pulp. So there is no need to
>> >> bring this into the discussion. It is not relevent.
>> >
>> >Ehrlich606, did you see this?
>> >
>> >Is this the kind of “skepticism” you approve of?
>>
>> Yes. Matt has argued, and I don’t see a hole in his argument, that the
>> document he quotes on ZB specifically references wood snippets and NOT
>> Erco cubes.

>You don’t “see a hole in his argument?” LOL! Oh, my! That _is_ rich! Try
>opening your eyes for a change, Ehrlich606! To wit:

>In article <[email protected]> the Troll wrote: “But as
>you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used as the
>carrier, rather either wood pulp…. But in case you missed the Degesh
>pub… Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication ”

>According to the “Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the
>Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)” [NI-9912] it states:

>”ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.”
>(_Technique_, p.18)

>Clearly, Ehrlich606, both you and the Troll are full of shit.

Clearly you can not tell the difference from the type used for pest
control and the other types. Nor can you tell the difference from
Degesh itself and another source. You further know that in the
non-Degesh publication there is NO mention of the use for the “ERCO”
type.

And if you were honest you would admit that I was the first to post BOTH
articles in this NG and made the distinction between them. And further
admit that I did that after a couple of holohuggers were claiming to
have the Degesh publication but in German and just could not find the
time to translate it BUT “Trust a holohugger” it supports everything the
witnesses related.

Now that we know it contradicts what the witnesses said we know the
holohuggers were lying about its what it said.

Beyond that, trust a holohugger to still try to salvage their nonsense
claims no matter how false they were and still are.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51340 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:27:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:31:49 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>
>> Before I quote you as saying these are the only differences would you
>> like to add any others?

>No, Matt, there are many differences. I never said that those were the
>only differences.

Would you care to provide a complete list of differences?

>> >To accuse the Jews of events that are part of a mythology to begin with
>> >is to require all Xians to accept the equivalent “blame”, since the
>> >origins of Xtianity are via the same history and mythology.
>>
>> Find with me. Blame them all. That makes the mythical Nazi genocide
>> just one more mythicl genocide of fellow schismatics. Makes it all sort
>> of poetic.

>No, Matt, that is nonsensical logic.

>You have accepted a document that is mythology. You have made a claim
>based on that document.

I have made the claim because there are people on this NG who truly
believe what is written. It eliminates a fraction of the “believing”
population from being able to claim their own people did not invent
genocide.

As you have noticed, they remain silent to let the atheists fight their
fights for them. After that is done, they come back and try to push
their religious crap again. They would rather suffer their beliefs
riduculed than their holocaust questioned.

You really do not yet understand the position or the people you are
defending. You should have paid more attention before you jumped in.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:44 PDT 1996
Article: 51345 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:33:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 1:36:14 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80035 alt.revisionism:51345

On 18 Jul 1996 03:24:35 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
Weineck) wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
>: >First remark: One idiotic followup deleted
>: >
>: >In , [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) writes:

>: >Conclusion: You are a person trying to argue about facts that your limited
>: >mind isn’t capable to understand.
>: >Until you won’t post any argument against that, I’ll be convinced to be
>: >right.
>: >Absolutely NO regards

>: Hey, I have never claimed to be a chemist. Certainly my knowledge of
>: chemistry is limited.

>: I am only asserting these views in *these newsgroups* in order to protest
>: against the foul attempts of the German government to suppress the freedom
>: of speech, not only in their own country but in the rest of Europe. Like in
>: 1940-45 Germany is again going to decide – this time through their European
>: Union – what Danish people should be allowed to express in public about
>: nazism. THIS CAN BY NO MEANS BE TOLERATED! Nazism is solely a German
>: phenomena, allthough many Germans may be too cowardly to admit this.

>: Honestly, whether or not the holocaust happened, does not really matter
>: that much to me be as I am not German or Jewish and was not even born during
>: WW2. On the other hand my freedom of speech neans everything to me, and I
>: am going to fight for this right by all means.

>If it doesn’t matter to you that other people died a gruesome death, why
>should it matter to us whether you can continue to blabber on?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt you are not a handle, if you want to
talk about gruesome deaths …

Which is worse?

Death from disease over days to weeks after being worked for months on
starvation rations OR gassing in minutes?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:45 PDT 1996
Article: 51350 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer – Losing it.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:12:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:11:53 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Then stop. No one is forcing you to either respond to me or post that
>> you can deal with me very easily. Stop both or stop neither.
>>

>But I am dealing with you quite easily. Too easily.

>However, I am busy, so I can only give this a momentary glance.

>> >Where do you think I got the typed-in stuff that I posted in Soapbox,
>> >Poli-Phil, Debate, etcetera. That much typing is a pain (literally) for
>> >me – so I took advantage of Danny Keren’s posts, complete with
>> >attributions, among others.
>>
>> Those conferences are not here. You have not been here and you only
>> showed up when you found that Dahlman was here. He was posting much too
>> long before you showed up for you to pretend you knew it from the
>> beginning.

>Matt, you’re truly a fool.

>When Rick Savage started making claims in Debate – I dumped the
>Auschwitz material – COMPLETE WITH DANNY KEREN’S NAME – into the echo. I
>also dumped in all of the Mermelstein transcripts.

Keren? The applied math type who thinks he knows something and can only
respond to the contradictions of the nonsense he posts with “naziboy”?
Is that truly the side you are taking?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:46 PDT 1996
Article: 51356 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Misuse of Holocaust sources
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:17:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-31.ix.netcom.com
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:41:56 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> Apparently, Mr. McCarthy does not understand the reason why I am
>> making this piece available on the Web.

>Apparently Mr. Raven does not understand what I was asking. I would
>like to know approximately how long I should expect to wait before Mr.
>Giwer’s “new and improved” version is released, so that I can decide
>whether to bother responding to the version that’s currently available.

>> It is not because Mr. Giwer’s analysis
>> is brilliant, but rather because he has identified a common problem with
>> the use of Holocaust sources: that is, different scholars treat any
>> given source to such remarkably different ways that it is difficult to
>> believe that they are dealing with one source, and not multiple,
>> conflicting sources.

>Mr. Giwer has mixed primary and secondary sources and claims to be
>shocked — SHOCKED! — that there are minor discrepancies. Yes, there
>is a problem, but the problem is revisionist dishonesty in presenting
>information.

>Still, it _is_ good to see that Mr. Raven continues to believe that
>Usenet is an appropriate forum to discuss topics raised on the web.
>That, at least, is encouraging.

>Posted/emailed.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

It is only a scientifically illiterate fool who considers the
discrepencies minor.

The discrpencies are physically impossible. That raises them far beyond
the discrepency level. It raises them to the impossible level.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51358 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:01:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-31.ix.netcom.com
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On 19 Jul 1996 00:53:38 -0400, [email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:

>ALSTINE WROTE ON 7/12
>So too, for the same reason, is your assertion of a
>>”contradiction” in the
>>number of “little chimneys” also erroneous. Obviously,
>>in the Bauleitung photo, not all the “little chimneys” had been
>>contructed when the photo was taken. When the (much)
>>later air photos of the _completed_ (and
>>operational) Kremas were taken the “little chimney”
>>that was “missing” on
>>Krema III’s L.Keller 1 in the Bauleitung photo had
>>been erected.

>While it is possible to add holes to the concrete roof
>it is unlikely that the Germans would cut, waterproof,
>and build one chimney and then go on through the same
>process with the next chimney. The expected and common
>method of building would be to cut FOUR holes and then
>have a crew of masons build FOUR chimneys.
>Unless you want to claim the Germans ADDED another
>hole at a later date, the Bauleitung photo shows three complete square
>boxes and nothing at all which indicates that a
>fourth chimney is being built.

Beyond all of this, we are truly back to the “supid Germans” if we
accept this idea. Why does anyone need more than one when one will do?

Why does anyone need fancy wire mesh things when the entire room has to
be hosed down to get rid of the shit?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51360 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:10:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-31.ix.netcom.com
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On 18 Jul 1996 20:39:07 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:

>>*might well* is not *is*. I am glad that you have no more doubts. The
>>problem is that the color change is precisely the opposite of what it
>>should be. *Wet* ZB, according to this, would be pink. *Dry* (or
>>outgassed) ZB would be blue. You can talk about this until you are mauve
>>in the face, but blue is not mauve nor is it pink.

>That’s precisely the point, Mr. Ehrlich. If it’s the case that such an
>indicator was added, fresh zyklon would be blue. It would start to turn
>mauve when it began to accumulate water.

But as you know from your careful reading of what has been posted here,
you are rather full of it.

ERCO is described a cubes which is different from silica gel. You know
that only wood pulp is mentioned in the Degesh pub for the fumigant
form. You know that no one had connected silica gel with ERCO.

And above all, with your vast experience, you know that silica gel NEVER
looks mauve in any stage of dry or wet.

Beyond that, you have a great case.

>>Nor are wood snippets ERCO cubes.

>No one has claimed otherwise, Mr. Ehrlich. Once again, you are being
>intellectually dishonest. ERCO is listed as a support for zyklon in
>DEGESH publications (the fact that a single document from DEGESH may
>not mention ERCO does not mean that ERCO was not used in some or all of
>the gassings.).

That is a false statement. It is NOT mentioned in the Degesh
publication and you clearly know that. You also know that Erkel ne ERCO
is not mentioned as being silica gel. Why you would misrepresent this
is left between you and the god you have abjured as a atheist.

Some chemist. Willing to put his professional reputation on the line
with such misrepresentations. Very strange.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:48 PDT 1996
Article: 51376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!panix!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:12:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 18 11:14:49 PM PDT 1996
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:52:16 -0700, [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>> Curtis) writes:
>>
>> >
>> >[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <[email protected]>,
>> >>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits were
>> a
>> >>>fake detail. You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is another
>> >>>fake detail. Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
>> >>
>> >>That’s intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Do you think he really does? I wonder. . .
>> >
>> >
>>
>> OK, let’s put it this way. HCN does not produce a hacking cough….

>Nyiszli didn’t say it produced a “hacking cough.” He said:

>”Even two hours later it produced a suffocating cough.”
> ^^^^^^^^^^^

What is a “suffocating” cough? Please be specific in your answer. The
closest I can come to that kind of description is from pneumonia which
is not in the symptoms listed by you. It is the kind that keeps trying
to bring up mucous from the lungs but can not.

>And early symptons of HCN poisoning _can_ cause respitory difficulties.
>(cf. http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm)

>”…Lesser exposures cause a constriction and numbness in the throat,
>stiffness of the jaw, salivation, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, and
>apprehension….” (cf. http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/15547 )

>In your opinion, Ehrlich606, would a “suffocating cough” fall within the
>definition of “respitory difficulties?” If not, why?

>> …So N. is wrong about this….

>In your opinion.

From your own description. You have not listed coughing at all.

>> …Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn people blue….

>The DuPont MSDS on HCN say it can:

>”In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red
>skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the
>skin color may be bluish….”

>Do you suppose 1,000-2,000 victims locked in a gas chamber that was “very
>hot” and “so suffocating as to be unbearable” (cf. _Technique_, p.489),
>and who trampled and fought against each other in their terror to get away
>from the HCN gas, might cause this?

What would a pharmacists poetic description mean? If he is correct in
some manner then the room is filled with CO2 and they are dying already
and, according to AG, blocking the influx of the lighter HCN. Of course
he did not directly state that, rather it is the clear meaning of his
gas weights having an impact on the discussion.

>> …So N. is wrong about this, too….

>In your opinion.

>> The Zyklon is whatever color you insist.

>No, Zyklon B is whatever it color it was.

>BTW, Ehrlich606, do you suppose it is possible that Nyiszli saw _spent_
>pellets of Zyklon B as assumed that their color was same as when it was
>when it was administered?

You mean wood pulp is mauve? What strange trees they have. I know,
they imported them from the Amazon just for ZB.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 02:56:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 18 9:59:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:52:51 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Save the translation given is clearly an exception for the traveler, not
>> for the next door neighbor. Were I to bother to look it up, I would
>> expect to find it part of the hospitality due to strangers and this
>> being a statement that the Passover was not an exception.

>Save that it was explicitly directed as a *RELIGIOUS* duty that may be
>partaken by the convert – or stranger to the religion who would wish to
>join. A stranger who simply passes thru would be shown hospitality, but
>would not partake of the religious component.

Were that the case then the stranger could not be fed on Passover as it
was the only food that could be prepared on that day. As hospitality
meant food and shelter leaving the person unfed for a day is not nice.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 07:29:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 03:13:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-40.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 18 10:16:21 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 18 Jul 1996 22:33:34 GMT, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

> Dear jerkoff Jew,

>On 14 Jul 1996 15:04:18 GMT,
>yaw[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) commented:

> A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for,
> apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite. I suggest you read
> how the federal courts deal with litigants who file frivolous
> lawsuits.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) demonstrated his idiocy:

> What is antisemitic about that?

>On 16 Jul 1996 20:14:30 GMT, I pointed out:

> Not just anti-Semitic, but stupid, too!

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> What is antisemitic about it?

>It uses the word, Jew, as a pejorative.

Jerkoff is a perjorative. Jew is a term used by the person addressed to
describe himself. If you see it as perjorative, you have a problem.

How would you like it if you were called a Jew? Offended? Why? Or is
the old angst recurring?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 09:06:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.megalink.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: We know some things
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:32:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-31.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 3:35:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

About Auschwitz we know the folloiwng,

NO Historian ever held that there were 4 million dead at Auschwitz.

The curators of the Auschwits museum over the years have not been
historians.

The recreation of the “gas chamber” was not done by a historian.

Poland never assigned a historian to the project.

Beyond that, it is anyone’s guess.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 16:20:04 PDT 1996
Article: 51419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: from MO’H re: WW2 Holocaust
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:45:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 2:47:49 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 18 Jul 1996 02:43:03 -0400, [email protected] (Pericles) wrote:

>I suggest that as many people as possible from around the world become
>members of the following organization:
>United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM)

>As a member of the USHMM you will play a key role in bringing the story of
>the holocaust to the American people and any international tourists who
>visit Washington D.C. You will illuminate forever, this tragedy of
>darkness.
>Everyone who enters the museum will reach a new understanding of the
>holocaust.
>The politics and bigotry, the step-by-step isolation of the Jews (and
>other victims),
>the means of transport, enslavery, imprisonment and murder. The
>instruments of propaganda,
>torture and humiliation.
>You will help celebrate the triumph of the human spirit. The museum tells
>inspiring stories of defiance, escape and liberation!

> United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
> 100 Raoul Wallenberg Place
> SW Washington, D.C. 20024-2150

>Thank you for your support and time.
>Veritas, Pericles / Michael

Only a holohugger would take the “advice” a fucking handle.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 16:20:05 PDT 1996
Article: 51422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:22:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 2:25:02 AM CDT 1996
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On 18 Jul 1996 03:46:36 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>> If you ask real nice, I will teach you about the down and dirty side of
>> copyrights some day. In the mean time, ask youself why George Lucas
>> lost his copyright to the term Star Wars. It was very foolish but he
>> lost it and it was for political reasons.

> Sure. You know a lot a bout copyrights. You know a lot about
>RICO. You know a lot about evidence. You know a lot about civil procedure.
>You ought to start giving out out CLE credits.

> By the way, *titles* cannot be copyrighted.

Someone should have told that to Lucas before he filed the suit and to
the judge before he found against Lucas on different grounds.

But then, you are giving professional advice in all of your posts are
you not?

You really should look up the case.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 16:20:06 PDT 1996
Article: 51423 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aaaw… suit
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:27:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 2:30:13 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:14:32 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> The value of having had them? Or, given their quantity, are you going
>> to donate them another disk drive in order to carry all parts of every
>> thread? Or will you do like Davey-girl and leave them out of context?

>No – the value in Nizkor’s archives.

>As for context – that’s a given.

>Stop ducking, Matt.

>I’m not trying to prove what you are – you’ve shot your own toes off
>there.

>But it makes for amusing reading.

Anything, without the complete thread and all participants, is out of
context.

You have been around long enough to know that. You have even hassled
Davey-girl for doing it.

Are you now going to to it too?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 19:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 51499 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: To Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:30:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 1:33:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

If it was the real Ken McVay who called my parents to get my phone
number, the one he left, 862-3905 did not come with the right area code.

If you really want to talk, it is not hard to find my real phone number
if you can master a browser.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 19:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 51500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Choose your poison
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:57:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-26.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 1:59:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

You are given the choice between two forms of death.

The first is to be worked around the clocked on a starvation diet and
then to succomb to disease and die over a period of days to weeks.

The second is being gassed in a few minutes.

The choice is yours save that you are going to die, period.

Keep in mind that the first makes anything short of cancer look pleasant
and that the second is on the order of a heart attack or stroke the two
most common causes of death.

Which would you choose? And remember, you have to choose.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 19:11:12 PDT 1996
Article: 51503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:59:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 8:02:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:11 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>[About the Zyklon insertion devices in Kremas II & III]

># Beyond all of this, we are truly back to the “supid
># Germans” if we accept this idea.

>No, we are truly back to the “stupid ‘revisionists'”.

># Why does anyone need more than one when one will do?

>Because the gas chambers were rather large; inserting the
>Zyklon in a few, evenly spaced locations, resulted in
>faster death. Hoess wrote this.

Hoess “wrote” a lot of things that are incompatable. He even viewed the
first gassing wearing a gas mask. He also wrote in that rendition that
it was simply thrown in and the people died instantaneously. There is
no reason for him to change his opinion knowing it could simply be
thrown in.

Of course being a stupid German he did not find a Russian tank engine
and use a method that would take only five minutes longer.

It isn’t as though there was any premium on speed as they were always
ahead of the burning.

># Why does anyone need fancy wire mesh things when the
># entire room has to be hosed down to get rid of the shit?

>”Fancy”? What was “fancy” about them? They were rather
>simple and cheap.

Anything is fancy when completely unnecessary.

>As was noted quite a few times, the wiremesh columns allowed
>to extract the Zyklon after the victims died, hence the
>problem of it continuing to release the cyanide gas when
>the door was opened was solved. This would have been more
>of a problem in these gas chambers, as they were underground,
>hence more difficult to ventilate.

Rather knowing they were “well designed gas chambers” one would simply
have warmed up a thick piece a metal by placing it near an oven. Put
that in the bottom of the “column” and they only needed to drop in a
small amount, all of which would outgas nearly instantly. That would
solve all of the problems your complicated creation introduces.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 19:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 51504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:27:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <2af_9[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 7:30:08 PM CDT 1996
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On 19 Jul 96 06:57:00, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Khazars] [Thu 18 Jul 96 22:56][Fri 19 Jul 96 01:36][0]*>

> >> Save that it was explicitly directed as a *RELIGIOUS* duty that
> >> may be partaken by the convert – or stranger to the religion
> >> who would wish to join. A stranger who simply passes thru would
> >> be shown hospitality, but would not partake of the religious
> >> component.

> mnc> Were that the case then the stranger could not be fed on
> mnc> Passover as it was the only food that could be prepared on that
> mnc> day. As hospitality meant food and shelter leaving the person
> mnc> unfed for a day is not nice.

>Stay on this track just a little while, Matt.

>There is a difference between the sacrificial ceremony and the food
>offered.

>You are, once again, making statements based on knowledge you don’t
>have.

>Putting it bluntly, you’re as ignorant as dirt here and proving it
>to the peanut gallery.

Are you saying the law permits other than Passover food to be prepared
on Passover?

Or is there a suggestion that a traveler is a more likely candidate for
conversion than a neighbor?

Does this make the Orthodox Hebrews and the Reformed Jews?

>So – back to the ORIGINAL track:

>Conversion was part of the Hebrew religion and most definitely part
>of the Judaic one – going back to Mosaic times or earlier.

At least you two are in agreement now on that point but hardly does that
passage support it.

>Thus your bizarre claim that the few Khazars that retained ther
>Judaism and migrated to Eastern Europe were not Jews because
>conversion did not apply is as nonsensical as the rest of your troll
>attempts.

It is interesting that the original post here was that they were lacking
in a birth tradition. What I added as I recall was that a claim of
those converts to having a claim on Israel was as foolish as (something
or other related to Rome.)

>We’ve already shown that there were Jews in the region.

>We’ve got documented large migrations of Jews from the Germanic
>region to Poland and Russia at the time that the population of
>”original” Jews was purportedly declining in the rest of the world
>and growing rapidly in Eastern Europe.

>So – you have again painted yourself into a corner.

Rather you attributed that to Kasimir centuries after the conversion.

On the other hand there are those objecting to what I am saying by
claiming there were direct migrations of middle eastern Jews right into
(more correctly through) the empire right into the rather barbaric
regions that at one time or other have constituted historic Poland. I
guess the Russias wouldn’t let them in.

>Prove that the Ashkenasis are really the descendants of the
>Khazarians. Prove that we are not Jews.

>It’s Prove-it time again, Matt!

If they were reformed and were legitimately converted then one would
presume there is no question.

But of course the above point of direct migrations and no blood
relationship was what started all of this.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 20:20:08 PDT 1996
Article: 51510 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:11:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 7:14:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 12:50:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Beyond that, trust a holohugger to still try to salvage their nonsense
>> claims no matter how false they were and still are.

>As soon as I see nonsense, I’ll support you, Matt.

>Unfortunately, you’re its primary source.

>PS – the revisionism in alt.revisionism doesn’t mean that you’re
>supposed to alter your own story…

What specifically are you talking about? Have I missed some of your
responses?

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 21:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:54:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 7:57:05 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:21:14 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># Yes. Matt has argued, and I don’t see a hole in his
># argument, that the document he quotes on ZB specifically
># references wood snippets and NOT Erco cubes.

>The book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, General Manager of Degesch,
>was published in 1933. It not only mentions the Erco carrier,
>it even has a photograph of the Erco pellets.

The Degesh document SPECIFICALLY mentions the type used as a fumigant as
using wood pulp. There were certainly other types used for other
purposes. The book does NOT (at least as far a cited, meaning it
probably does some place else) connect carriers to usage.

You can not change that. You can only and in honesty, post a section of
the book connecting the carrier with the usage. Or will I have to be
the one to find and post that also?

>One simply despairs of you people. We have gone to the trouble
>not only of finding the book, but even scanned the relevant
>material and posted it to the web.

>But even this doesn’t help. Nothing helps with you people. It’s
>like talking to a wall.

And just how does that explains you folks playing coy about having the
Degesh Publication but not posting it claiming you “didn’t have the
time” such that I had to be the first to post it?

Perhaps you are at least talking to an honest wall. You folks were
really refusing to post the publication because it disagreed with your
position. That is not considered an honest discussion.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 21:37:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51525 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:03:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 11:06:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:13:11 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>
>> I have made the claim because there are people on this NG who truly
>> believe what is written. It eliminates a fraction of the “believing”
>> population from being able to claim their own people did not invent
>> genocide.

>Outright nonsense. We’ve already been over that ground. The believing
>folks can say WITH AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that they did not invent
>genocide.

>You are ground-shifting again.

>Prove *YOUR* claims – nobody else’s.

As there are no prior written records of genocide and in fact the prior
records talk of enslavement of all but the warriors, who do you suppose
invented it?

I am more that willing to consider prior written records of genocide.
Both Egyptian and Babylonia speak of enslavement, not extermination.

As for ordering genocide, the terms were rather different from the other
and prior written records.

“The mighty Yahweh God has ordered it.”

” ‘ow do you know?”

“He spoke to me when I entered his presence.”

“I didn’t ‘ear nothin’.”

“The likes of you are not supposed to hear.”

“Then how do I know old unspeakable really said it?”

“Take away this unbeliever and stone him.”

“All right, all right. I knows how to take orders.”

“Right now, off you go. Kill everything that lives. You can
keep the little girls though.”

“Well why didn’t you say so?”

>> As you have noticed, they remain silent to let the atheists fight their
>> fights for them. After that is done, they come back and try to push
>> their religious crap again. They would rather suffer their beliefs
>> riduculed than their holocaust questioned.

>You’ve shown nothing, except an ability to quote selectively – one that
>you share with Dahlman.

>Since you’ve shown a remarkable lack of knowledge of the bible, why
>should any believer care about your claims?

>Prove *YOUR* claims, nobody else’s.

Evidence, not proof. You do know the difference.

>> You really do not yet understand the position or the people you are
>> defending. You should have paid more attention before you jumped in.

>As I’ve said before, I was here before you. I know the position of the
>facts that I present – reality.

>Don’t “advance to the rear”, Matt.

>PROVE YOUR CLAIMS!

Evidence, not proof. Evidence. Holohuggers want to accept testimony as
evidence and here we have written confessions to read with not
pretension in any manner of force in producing these confessions.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 23:04:46 PDT 1996
Article: 51532 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:14:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:37:06 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Which is worse?
>>
>> Death from disease over days to weeks after being worked for months on
>> starvation rations OR gassing in minutes?

>Forget it, Matt.

>No ground shifting.

You appear to have adopted this as a general purpose response for
everything, particularly when you are unaware of what the grounds in
fact are.

>Since deliberately working people to death in slave camps and
>deliberately exposing them to diseases would make for far better
>sympathy and would be harder to deny – your claims that gassing was
>never used and is simply to “make it look worse” become even more
>illogical and ludicrous.

>You’ve lost, Matt.

>Any way you squirm, you’ve lost.

Actually, when you first commented upon my posts in a.r you assumed I
was asking the same question I was on Debate and suggested this was a
valid question that could be supported with reasonable arguement.

But then you have forgotten your original post.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 23:04:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51540 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:40:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 11:43:09 PM CDT 1996
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On 19 Jul 1996 11:49:21 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran wrote:

>> Mr.Green constantly harps on “control” samples taken from
>>barracks that never were fumigated. Okay. No CN compounds found. The
>>samples were taken from inside, which are protected from the rain,
>>which is a solution of many compounds, more so than pure water, and
>>the footings and rubble of any “cremas” would have been exposed. A
>>real control on the tests would have been to take samples from local
>>ground and measure that against any levels from the remains of any
>>”cremas”. Mr.Green has never, in all the times he has mustered the
>>”control” samples from the barracks, related how they would be
>>relevant to any conclusion.

>Mr. Moran has developed a hypothesis that rain is the source of cyanides
>found _inside_ the ruins of the gas chambers. Yet, he cannot explain
>why cyanides were not found anywhere other than where they are known to
>have been used.

Read the damned reported again and stop misrepresenting it. It says
clearly “once or never” and makes no attempt to distinguish between the
two possibilities.

There is NO, “known to have been used,” in the entire report.

You are making that up.

You know you making that up.

And yet you will invent it to pretend the report is better than
worthless when in fact it is worthless.

From [email protected] Fri Jul 19 23:04:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51541 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 03:16:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 10:18:43 PM CDT 1996
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:50:50 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >> Now name some prior to the revolution.
>>
>> >Well, Champlain founded New France in 1604-1605 and the French expanded
>> >throughout eastern North America. Don’t tell me you never wondered how
>> >Detroit got its name, or Lake Champlain (yes, I know that Detroit did not
>> >become US territory until the War of 1812). Louisiana is named for the
>> >French king and its capital is, of course, Baton Rouge (Red Stick).
>>
>> And of course you believe 1812 is prior to the Revolution. Were you
>> paying attention in class?

>Now try and pay attention, Matt. I said that the French lived throughout
>the Northeast before the Revolution, and gave Detroit as one example. Now,
>don’t you think it would be logical to assume that if they were present
>so far west they might also be present just to the south of Quebec in
>New York, New Hampshire and Vermont?

The subject was “ethnic” contribution to the American revolution, not
where they happened to live. And whatever you migth “imagine” it is
logical to assume, has no bearing upon ethnic contribution to the
Revolution.

By the Proclamation Line of 1763 the areas you refer to were declared
Indian Country and formed the western limits of the colonies. If you
look it up you will find the areas you refer to were to the west of that
line.

>> >After the English conquest of Canada in 1755 (the French and Indian Wars
>> >in America, Seven Years War in Europe) the English deported many of the
>> >Acadians out of what is now New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Price Edward Island
>> >and the Gaspe.
>>
>> The US still does not own those territories and the way they are going
>> would not want to for the pomposity of them.

>Please define what you mean by “pomposity”. You should avoid big words that
>you cannot understand. Oh yes, and I said “deported”, as in took them out
>and moved them south. Please indicate where I ever insinuated that the
>US had or has ownership of these areas. Look real hard because I didn’t.
>Unlike you I have some concept of the history of my country.

Pomposity, def., Canadian.

And they still did not present any form of ethnic contribution to the
Revolution.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Join the Gang of Eight: Edit a Giwer page today!
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:53:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 11:55:48 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:51544 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:209

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:02:38 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Joel
>Rosenberg) wrote:

>> I realize I haven’t earned my share of the profits, but since Giwer is
>> apparently made of money and wants to throw it away, is there any way I can
>> get in on this lawsuit? And can I bring my wife and kids down to Florida for
>> the January deposition?
>>
>Thanks for asking, Joel. I wanted to ask the same thing.
>
>Giwer has spammed me with a 500 line piece of crap… will that help?

Learn to use a killfile. And after that, explain to YFE how to use it.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51545 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer – Losing it.
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 05:30:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:31:23 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Keren? The applied math type who thinks he knows something and can only
>> respond to the contradictions of the nonsense he posts with “naziboy”?

>Your ad hominem notwithstanding,

I was pointing out his. It is a statement of fact.

what does his profession have to do
>with his ability to key in or quote transcripts?

I was pointing out his inability to evaluate them. He believes things
even you can not twist your engineering knowledge to support, try as you
may.

>What does it have to do with his ability to understand things?

He has demonstrated many times that regardless of his ability to
understand he repeats physically impossible posts as though they were
unquestionable.

>My “profession” is “Systems Architect” – yet I make my money elsewhere.

>So?

That is your current occupation. You were an engineer of some sort or
other. You can do most anything you want as you have a wide ranging
knowledge of the sciences and such and how to apply them.

Keren on the other hand is narrow minded and recent PhD. I presume you
are aware of the problems with hiring those types. If not I will
outline them for you.

Clearly the lack of depth of experience is why he posts contrary to
reality reports of Russian-proclaimed eyewitnesses who report the
impossible and he does not notice the conflicts with reality as we know
it to be.

>> Is that truly the side you are taking?

>Side?!?

>I take the side of the facts, Matt – plain and simple.

Is this what you are taking sides with?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.”

IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

=====

These are your facts? If not, what are YOUR facts?

>You’ve ducked the issue again, Matt.

Is that an example of your facts or would you like a dozen or three
other facts that you are supporting also?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Slimey bastard McVay and company
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 06:21:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 1:23:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Jul 1996 08:32:08 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] wrote:

>>I can’t find it on my newsfeed!

>Must be those Special Interests again! (Blame
>Bernie Farber, immediately, and contact the Zundelklone, volunteering in
>the War Against Special Interests Censoring Stuff. Demand that your ISP
>carry this particular internet refuse bin!)
>
>>I’ve got alt.bonehead.kevin.mitnick, but no matt giwer.

>As your ISP to newgroup it for you. Smile when you do 🙂

>>Hmmm.

>You have quoted Linda Thompson, and thus misappropriated her word for
>commercial gain. I’d be careful about that sort of thing around here,
>Sara. See
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/t/thompson-linda/thompson-mcvay-070796.html
>for her use of the word “Hmmm” and deport yourself accordingly.)

>Whoops! I retract! You did _not_ misappropriate Linda Thompson’s “hmmmm,”
>you invented your own word, “hmmm,” instead. I apologize, world-wide, for
>this unseeming slur upon your good name and honour, Sara.

>>A conspiracy of silence perhaps?

>We should be so lucky 🙂

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>See you in Tampa.

>–
>The Nizkor Project | https://nizkor.org/
>———————–| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
> |————————————–
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/random-giwer-lie.pl

If you know I am in Tampa why do you harrass my octagenarian parents in
Cincinnati for my phone number?

Are you claiming you do not know the magic number?

Try it this way, 813-555-1212. It works for everyone you worthless
piece of shit.

You have in fact almost exhausted my patience with you and your
organized activities.

Take this as one of your last warnings.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:24:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 9:27:17 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 12:41:27 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>Once again, Ehrlich — is this the sort of “skepticism” of which you
>approve? Outright lies?

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> ERCO is described a cubes which is different from silica gel. You know
>> that only wood pulp is mentioned in the Degesh pub for the fumigant
>> form. You know that no one had connected silica gel with ERCO.
>>
>> And above all, with your vast experience, you know that silica gel NEVER
>> looks mauve in any stage of dry or wet.

>Matt Giwer is telling an outright lie when he says “no one had connected
>silica gel with ERCO.” The connection was pointed out back in February
>and has been mentioned probably dozen times on this newsgroup since then
>– maybe more. Mr. Giwer is well aware of this.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/zyklon-b.001

> (From page 21 of Pressac’s book. ***emphasis*** mine : HWM)
>
> 2) “Photo 20”
>
> “500 grams can of Zyklon-B without it’s label, containing small
> ***bluish pellets*** of porous silica known as Erco, which
> absorbed the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic
> and sternutatory agent. These are the ‘crystals’ of Zyklon-B.

>”Porous silica known as Erco,” says Pressac. “[N]o one had connected
>silica gel with ERCO,” says Giwer. Giwer lies.

Excuse me, good sir, but what reference does this pharmacist use to
support his assertion?

>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer goes on to explain to Mr. Green that silica gel
>”NEVER looks mauve” — when it has already been pointed out on this
>forum that mauve is a shade of a purplish hue, and when Mr. Green has
>already explained that, in his experience, silica gel’s hue varies
>between blue and pink depending on how wet it is. Thus Mr. Green has
>confirmed for us that mauve is certainly a color that silica gel could
>adopt. Mr. Giwer knows these things because they’ve been posted to
>threads in which he is (to say the least) an active participant.

What he has not asserted it that an any time it looks any shade of
purple. But you know that and he knows that. He has left it for you to
assume that. At no time does it look any shade of purple.

>In short, Mr. Giwer is lying through his teeth _again_ — twice in two
>back-to-back sentences.

Next time you are near the novelty section, look for those cheap things
that are a measure of humity and buy one. Unseal it and breath on it.
What the color change. You will not see purple.

It is called cobalt chloride. It is a very old and very trivial
chemistry experiment. You should know such fundamental things.

>It is my suspicion, Ehrlich, that you will refuse to acknowledge that
>Mr. Giwer is a baldfaced liar; you seem to have committed yourself to
>the belief that Mr. Giwer is more “skeptical” than the rest of us,
>rather than being more dishonest. Please prove me wrong by recognizing
>that these outrageous tactics make intelligent discussion with the man
>impossible.

Rather he might recognize that you slept through General Science in High
School and that you have no business considering yourself aculturated.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:29 PDT 1996
Article: 51551 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:26:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 9:29:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Jul 1996 15:08:37 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>>Once again, Ehrlich — is this the sort of “skepticism” of which you
>>approve? Outright lies?
>>
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>> ERCO is described a cubes which is different from silica gel. You know
>>> that only wood pulp is mentioned in the Degesh pub for the fumigant
>>> form. You know that no one had connected silica gel with ERCO.
>>>
>>> And above all, with your vast experience, you know that silica gel NEVER
>>> looks mauve in any stage of dry or wet.
>>
>>Matt Giwer is telling an outright lie when he says “no one had connected
>>silica gel with ERCO.” The connection was pointed out back in February
>>and has been mentioned probably dozen times on this newsgroup since then
>>– maybe more. Mr. Giwer is well aware of this.
>>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/zyklon-b.001
>>
>> (From page 21 of Pressac’s book. ***emphasis*** mine : HWM)
>>
>> 2) “Photo 20”
>>
>> “500 grams can of Zyklon-B without it’s label, containing small
>> ***bluish pellets*** of porous silica known as Erco, which
>> absorbed the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic
>> and sternutatory agent. These are the ‘crystals’ of Zyklon-B.
>>
>>”Porous silica known as Erco,” says Pressac. “[N]o one had connected
>>silica gel with ERCO,” says Giwer. Giwer lies.
>>
>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer goes on to explain to Mr. Green that silica gel
>>”NEVER looks mauve” — when it has already been pointed out on this
>>forum that mauve is a shade of a purplish hue, and when Mr. Green has
>>already explained that, in his experience, silica gel’s hue varies
>>between blue and pink depending on how wet it is. Thus Mr. Green has
>>confirmed for us that mauve is certainly a color that silica gel could
>>adopt. Mr. Giwer knows these things because they’ve been posted to
>>threads in which he is (to say the least) an active participant.
>>
>>In short, Mr. Giwer is lying through his teeth _again_ — twice in two
>>back-to-back sentences.

> I think for this discussion of color perception it would be
>instructive to look at http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/sexist.html.
>”People have a tendency to break out laughing when I identify colors. I
>can see them all. I just see them differently.”

> Yet Mr. Giwer pretends that a discrepancy between “mauve” and “blue”
>in two different witnesses’ statements is significant, and that silica gel
>NEVER looks mauve.

> Why can it not be that Dr. Nyiszli just sees colors differently?

> I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
>calling him a lying troll. He is a very slow learner.

That not the way it works. It is simply different. One would see three
distinctly different colors and in comparison identify them properly.

You should have stayed awake in General Science class also.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51552 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:47:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]fw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 9:50:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:40:59 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>
>> And above all, with your vast experience, you know that silica gel NEVER
>> looks mauve in any stage of dry or wet.
>>
>> Beyond that, you have a great case.

>Naughty naughty, Matt.

>Such misrepresentation!

>Look below, Matt.

>See the sentence where it says: “If it’s the case that such an
>*INDICATOR* was added…” [EMPHASIS MINE].

>>
>> >That’s precisely the point, Mr. Ehrlich. If it’s the case that such an
>> >indicator was added, fresh zyklon would be blue. It would start to turn
>> >mauve when it began to accumulate water.
>>

>Do you always lead with your chin?

>I don’t even have to go outside of one of your postings to show that you
>are reading selectively.

>Please make more of an effort, Matt. So far you’re only a minor
>diversion and very boring!

You apparently slept through General Science also. And perhaps every
other chemistry class as well.

If you had not you would know that colors are produced by specific
scattering properties of the compound and do not blend, even though your
crayons might.

And specifically you would know that the Rayleigh scattering transition
>from blue to red is from a short to a long scattering path. You would
also know that going from blue to purple would require going from a
short to a shorter scattering length.

Given that scattering is the cause of the color any “transitional” color
would be between blue and red and in scattering terms that does not
include purple of any shade.

Now if you would have paid attention in General Science you would have
seen the color blue fade out and the color red fade in. In college you
should have learned why there is never a mix of the colors.

I would have thought the engineer in you would at least be more honest
than this.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No historian has ever
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 06:14:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 11:17:13 PM PDT 1996
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No holocaust historian has ever maintained that there were 4 million
killed at Auschwitz.

Therefore there were no holocaust historians before 1991.

And as we know that includes the curator of A-B.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51556 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:55:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 19 Jul 1996 16:29:15 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Ursus Major) wrote:

>>thing that breathes! Those of the Mosaic Confession who slither about
>>here don’t like to be reminded of that portion of their Torah;, and
>>when reminded of it, REFUSE to discuss it. Perhaps your Evangelical
>>Excellenz could have a go at it.

>Isn’t Lehmann a Jewish name, George?

>>SEMPER FIDELIS (et Semper Prudens)!

>Glad I’m not in the Corps anymore, George.

But you harrassed a fellow Marine in his 80s and very close to the end
just to get my phone number.

You worthless slime.

Marines do not do that to each other.

May I suggest my patience is near an end?

You had better respond real soon now.

This is another of those next to last warnings just to give you time to
do so.

You claim I am in your killfile. That is your claim. My posts are
public. If you choose not to read them then you have brought your
problems upon yourself. And I think I can bring down half of the corp
upon you for what you are doing to my parents, one of whom is a marine.

Mr. McVay, my terms are very simple.

EVERY mention of me disappears from NIZKOR without expection in any
manner or form, period, no exceptions. Not even oblique references or
secondary quotations. EVERYTHING goes as though it never existed.

You publically post that you will take action and that you do take
action against anyone who contacts any member of my family or me in any
derogatory manner save via this newsgroup.

That you do not play lawyer and find a way to circumvent these terms.

Is that clear enough?

Or shall I spell it out further?

If I have to spell it out further, unspecified penalities will be
invoked.

I hope this is clear.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:32 PDT 1996
Article: 51558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill ‘Only’ 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:38:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:18:54 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>(A photograph of the letter can be seen in
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/brack.victor/images)

>Letter from SS-Oberfuehrer Brack to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, June 23, 1942
>[Documents on the Holocaust – Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 272]
>——————————————————————–
>Honorable Mr. Reichsfuehrer!

>On instruction from Reichsleiter Bouhler I placed a part of my men at
>the disposal of Brigadefuehrer Globocnik some considerable time ago
>for his special task. Following a further request from him, I have
>now made available more personnel. On this occasion Brigadefuehrer
>Globocnik pressed the view that the whole action against the Jews
>should be carried out as quickly as it is in any way possible, so
>that we will not some day be stuck in the middle should any kind
>of difficulty make it necessary to stop the action. you yourself,
>Mr. Reichsfuehrer, expressed the view to me at an earlier time that
>one must work as fast as possible, if only for reasons of concealment.
>Both views are more than justified according to my own experience,
>and basically they produce the same results. Nevertheless I beg to
>be permitted to present the following consideration of my own in
>this connection:

>According to my impression there are at least 2-3 million men and
>women well fit for work among the approx. 10 million European
>Jews. In consideration of the exceptional difficulties posed for
>us by the question of labor, I am of the opinion that these 2-3
>million should in any case be taken out and kept alive. Of course
>this can only be done if they are in the same time rendered
>incapable of reproduction. I reported to you about a year ago that
>persons under my instruction have completed the necessary experiments
>for this purpose. I wish to bring up these facts again. The type
>of sterilization which is normally carried out on persons with
>genetic disease is out of the question in this case, as it takes
>too much time and is expensive. Castration by means of X-rays,
>however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on
>many thousands in a very short time. I believe that it has become
>unimportant at the present time whether those affected will then
>in the course of a few weeks or months realize by the effects that
>they are castrated.

>In the event, Mr. Reichsfuehrer, that you decide to choose these
>means in the interest of maintaining labor-material, Reichsleiter
>Bouhler will be ready to provide the doctors and other personnel
>needed to carry out this work. He also instructed me to inform you
>that I should then order the required equipment as quickly as
>possible.

>

Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
radiation is one of the hardest things to do.

In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
of the sperm producing cells.

What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality it
also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
better approach.

But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.
They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.

Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
dormant cells to confirm this. But you never will. You are all
holohuggers.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 03:07:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 19 Jul 1996 12:30:56 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> >> > Let’s see. French (Canada, Lousiana, Delaware), Spanish (Florida,
>> >> >Lousiana, and Texas), German and other middle European (Pennsylvania),
>> >Dutch
>> >> >(New York), African Blacks (many states). There was also quite a bit of
>> >immigration
>> >> >from Wales, Scotland, and Ireland which, while technically from the British
>Isles
>> >were
>> >> >dissenters trying to get away from the English oppression. Many of the
>highland
>> >> >survivors of the ’45 ended up in the Carolinas for example where for some
>> >reason they
>> >> >became ardent loyalists (including Flora MacDonald who hid Bommie Prince
>> >Charlie
>> >> >and later raised a regiment of highlanders to fight for the crown).
>> >
>> >> Now name some prior to the revolution.
>>
>> > I just did, dummy.
>>
>> Very good. Now just was the ethic contribution to the revolution of the
>> French in Louisiana prior to the Louisiana Purchase?

> You are so ignorant that its amazing. First of all the *Spanish* ruled
>Lousiana in 1776.

That was not under discussion.

Second, French citizens of Lousiana served at the battle of
>Baton Rouge, the battle of Mobile, and the battle of Pensacola. French from
>Louisana also served wilth Willets in his expedition. Further French from what was
>later determined to be Lousiana served with Clark in his campaigns.

1812 not the Revolution.

You are getting desperate.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:34 PDT 1996
Article: 51560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 03:29:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:05:57 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> And since the least they had were 1 Kg cans of it to work with, this is
>> a completely impractical method and thus they could not clearly identify
>> it.

>Matt, if you want to claim invention of the the non-sequitur, your
>repeated use of it seems to put you in the lead.

>People can detect a miniscule amount of it – there’s the info in front
>of you. But yor claim (right in front of you) is that a 1 Kg container
>was impractical for sensing HCN?!?!?

You need to learn to edit less or address the mail as it was posted.
Half wit …

On 18 Jul 1996 21:06:31 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Miloslav Bilik <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>Matt Giwer said:
>>
>>>>> The problem is that the ability to smell (SMELL) HCN gas is it lacking
>>>>> in a small percentage of the population.
>>
>>I have no reference for that. The mean threshold is 50 ppm. Heavy
>>smokers can smell HCN at much lower levels, but I have nothing about
>>lacking in smelling HCN.
>>
>>What is your reference ?

>DuPont’s pamplet “Hydrogen Cyanide: Properties, Uses, Storage, and
>Handling” on page 12 says:

> Experience has shown that almost all people can be taught to
> detect HCN. One method is to have the individual take one or
> two “sniffs” once per day for several days from a test bottle
> containing HCN. Odor (or recognition) of HCN must be learned
> by each individual. Some people detect HCN more by taste or
> feeling than by odor.

And since the least they had were 1 Kg cans of it to work with, this is
a completely impractical method and thus they could not clearly identify
it.

Thank you for the information.

—–

That is one or two “whiffs” per day. We also “know” from witnesses that
the cans were opened with hammer and chisel so there was no way to
reseal them.

Now you explain to me how you march everyone past and take a whiff or
two for a few days and knowing the turnover of the sonderkommando was on
the order of a few weeks.

Now hand waving. Think it through and post the procedures including
where it is done and considering the time frames involved in the
process.

You are a manager. You can think it through. What is your plan?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:34 PDT 1996
Article: 51563 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:11:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
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On 20 Jul 1996 03:18:49 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
Weineck) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 18 Jul 1996 03:24:35 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
>: Weineck) wrote:

>: >Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: In article <[email protected]>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
>: >: >First remark: One idiotic followup deleted
>: >: >
>: >: >In , [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) writes:

>: >: >Conclusion: You are a person trying to argue about facts that your limited
>: >: >mind isn’t capable to understand.
>: >: >Until you won’t post any argument against that, I’ll be convinced to be
>: >: >right.
>: >: >Absolutely NO regards

>: >: Hey, I have never claimed to be a chemist. Certainly my knowledge of
>: >: chemistry is limited.

>: >: I am only asserting these views in *these newsgroups* in order to protest
>: >: against the foul attempts of the German government to suppress the freedom
>: >: of speech, not only in their own country but in the rest of Europe. Like in
>: >: 1940-45 Germany is again going to decide – this time through their European
>: >: Union – what Danish people should be allowed to express in public about
>: >: nazism. THIS CAN BY NO MEANS BE TOLERATED! Nazism is solely a German
>: >: phenomena, allthough many Germans may be too cowardly to admit this.

>: >: Honestly, whether or not the holocaust happened, does not really matter
>: >: that much to me be as I am not German or Jewish and was not even born during
>: >: WW2. On the other hand my freedom of speech neans everything to me, and I
>: >: am going to fight for this right by all means.

>: >If it doesn’t matter to you that other people died a gruesome death, why
>: >should it matter to us whether you can continue to blabber on?

>: Giving you the benefit of the doubt you are not a handle, if you want to
>: talk about gruesome deaths …

>I want no benefits from the like of you; please think of me as a handle,
>whatever that is. Or, better, go away, you give me the creeps.

I am here no matter how much you holohuggers harrass my family and my
aged parents. It is only the manner of retribution I take upon you
folks for your actions that matters.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:35 PDT 1996
Article: 51571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Join the Gang of Eight: Edit a Giwer page today!
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 05:02:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 12:05:18 AM CDT 1996
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On 19 Jul 1996 08:35:53 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] wrote:

>>In article , [email protected] (Joel
>>Rosenberg) wrote:

>>> I realize I haven’t earned my share of the profits, but since Giwer
>>> is apparently made of money and wants to throw it away, is there any
>>> way I can get in on this lawsuit? And can I bring my wife and kids
>>> down to Florida for the January deposition?

>>Thanks for asking, Joel. I wanted to ask the same thing.
>
>>Giwer has spammed me with a 500 line piece of crap… will that help?

>Only 500 lines? That’s it? That’s your sole beef? How do you expect to
>defeat Spamhuggers, obeseperson?

>You accept only spam from a thing.

>(Sure – see you in Tampa.)

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

Are you really the one who hassled by parents in their 80s to get my
phone number or was that one of your gang?

What is your area code so we can talk? This is the rest that came
through. 863-3905. Is that correct?

Now the gang has taken to harrassing my parents.

Is there anyone going to hold me guilty of other than righteous response
after this? My phone number is available on the web yet some asshole
had to call them.

What little patience I have had for you folks is about at its limits.
There is almost none left.

It will be stopped.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:36 PDT 1996
Article: 51604 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More evidence of Giwer’s Alzheimer’s
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 06:43:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 11:46:00 PM PDT 1996
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On 19 Jul 1996 17:36:21 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:

>[snip]
>[reformatted:]

> [email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
> the cold flor but I don’t think that they might have been long
> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.

>>>>> Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?
>>
>>> They were present only in Kremas II and III. As I said, you have
>>>never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
>>>because you neither understand nor remember what you read. How can you
>>>possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
>>>this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?
>>
>>In fact you were arguing that the “gassing design features” of the LK
>>were improved in IV and V

> I never said such a thing. Are you lying, or is this simply more
>evidence that you have computer-like memory (i.e., 60 nanoseconds)?

The refresh rate is there. but then how long is a nanosecond?

>>until I pointed out that a different building
>>entirely was used in IV according to Nizkor.

> Very good! IV was a different building from II. And II from III.
>And V was a different building as well! You’re learning!

> As far as I can tell, everyone but you knew that IV was a different
>building, Matt.

The are not not claimed by Nzkor to have been used at IV and V. But you
know that. So what is your point?

> Oh, by the way – I am talking about KREMAS II, III, IV, and V. Now,
>you may have been unable to figure out how LEICHENKELLER 1 and 2 fit into
>all this. Is that what’s giving you problems – can’t figure out when we
>are talking about a _Leichenkeller_ number, and when we’re talking about a
>_Krema_ number? I do wish you would learn to read, it would make life
>easier.

> Do you know where the Leichenkellers were? Have you even managed to
>learn that much in over six months?

I saw the images on Nizkor and posted them here with comment. The
undressing rooms of Kremas II and III were used for gassing in Kremas
IV and V as you konw from Nizkor. All of those great designs in II and
III and the improvements in IV and V were thrown away as a different
building entirely was used in IV and V.

But you know all of this so why are you continuing this thread?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 09:15:36 PDT 1996
Article: 51607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Choose your poison
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 05:48:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 12:50:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:19:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Which would you choose? And remember, you have to choose.

>An H-bomb in Berlin.

That is not a choice. Perhaps a littel “take a few Nazis with me” in
Berlin would have been a prior choice but once submitting to being
deported all decision making ability was given up.

>Why should anybody force a choice on me?

Why would anyone accept the choice by not resisting?

>Don’t bother trying that route, Matt.

>You’ve been there.

>No “advancing to the rear”, Matt!

You originally said it was a reasonable question when you thought that
was what I was promoting here.

>No trying to get people to agree with you by presenting that gassing was
>merciful and working on what you perceive to be a hatred of Germans.

I did not say it was merciful. I simply asked after the choice.

>You’re stuck, Matt.

>Now – when will you provide physical evidence by your own rules for your
>contentions?

I have done so as you well know.

But as a “systems architect” you would certainly implement anything
anyone told you would work without regard for the person’s credentials
and you would never bother to test it as you know it has to be true.

Perhaps you would like to apply your engineering judgement to this one?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. ”

IMT VII – p. 377.
From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 12:21:37 PDT 1996
Article: 51652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!worldlinx.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:10:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80137 alt.revisionism:51652

On 19 Jul 1996 09:07:33 GMT, [email protected] (Stefan Schneider)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[lots of totally off-topic references deleted]
>>Giving you the benefit of the doubt you are not a handle, if you want to
>>talk about gruesome deaths …
>> Which is worse?
>>Death from disease over days to weeks after being worked for months on
>>starvation rations OR gassing in minutes?

>You shouldn’t reveal your disdainful attitude towards humanity in such an
>unmasked way. It could negatively affect your reputation. You can imagine
>there is the possibility of neither working somebody to death nor gassing
>anyone, can’t you? One of it always seems necessary to you.

I asked a very straightforward question. It appears you are unable to
answer it in any manner.

If you had been here long enough you would know the holohuggers have a
working presumption in all cases that death was unquestionably the
inescapable conclusion.

Under the working assumptions of the holohuggers, I am asking a
legitmate question. Remember, there was no hope.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 12:21:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51662 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for Matt Giwer
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 03:03:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:30:49 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:05:46 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>> >More important, of course, is WHY we are even discussing this in
>> >alt.revisionism. Forgive my lapse of memory, but how did this topic get
>> >started in the first place?
>>
>> You appear to believe Grant was in charge of Vicksburg.
>
>An interesting statement. Totally irrelevant to my question, but an
>interesting question. Yes, I believe Grant was in charge of Vicksburg. He
>was the commanding General at the siege of Vicksburg.

I have no idea of the siege, the thread started as who developed the
policy and the answer was Sherman while he was in charge of the
garrison.

>I’m going to quote some e-mail I received in regards to this thread. Since
>I do not have the permission of the writer, I will not attribute it. If
>the author of it wishes to identify him/herself, I’d be delighted.

You will need to find something on the subject to continue.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 12:21:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51668 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:33:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:32:13 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Someone should have told that to Lucas before he filed the suit and to
>> the judge before he found against Lucas on different grounds.

>Titles can’t be copyrighted.

>They can be trademarked – but not copyrighted.

>What’s difficult to understand about that?

Nothing is wrong with that at all save that he filed specifically on the
use of the title which he should have known.

And the case was decided on the grounds that he had made no prior
objection when it has been used by others.

It is more likely he filed on grounds of joint copyright and trademark
infringement. In any event he lost rights to the term, period, because
he selectively objected to its use.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 16:02:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51690 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 06:36:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:48:33 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>The following photos are in

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/bergen-belsen/images

>They are all scanned from “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R. Phillips,
>William Hodge and Company, 1949.

>Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
>Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.

And all of these photos taken by the British to document the actions
they ordered to deal with the deaths from disease and starvation that
resulted from the Allied destruction of supply lines. Beyond that, not
very interesting.

Got that, Alec? If you missed it, the fat broads were from the
neighborhood lowlife including prositutes. Sex for food is the sort of
thing HRO would go for in another incarnation.

Keren continues to be a PhD far out of his speciality and unable to
apply real life experience to what he sees as he has so few real life
experiences.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 16:49:48 PDT 1996
Article: 51694 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Choose your poison
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 05:38:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 10:41:02 PM PDT 1996
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On 19 Jul 1996 17:16:13 GMT, [email protected] (Charles Don Hall) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> You are given the choice between two forms of death.
>>
>> The first is to be worked around the clocked on a starvation diet and
>>then to succomb to disease and die over a period of days to weeks.
>>
>> The second is being gassed in a few minutes.
>>
>> The choice is yours save that you are going to die, period.
>>
>> Keep in mind that the first makes anything short of cancer look pleasant
>>and that the second is on the order of a heart attack or stroke the two
>>most common causes of death.
>>
>> Which would you choose? And remember, you have to choose.

>I know that I have you in my killfile, but I thought that I’d address
>this anyway because it gives me an opportunity to quote from “Through
>the Looking Glass”.

You have obviously not mastered the killfile. Why not ask YFE for
instructions on its use? He is the expert here, about as expert as you.

>Anyway, in this scenario, I think that I’d simply refuse to answer.
>It’s prettty obvious that the person threatening me with death
>doesn’t like me very much, so what’s to stop him from coming back
>with, “Oh, so you want me to do X? Well, in that case, I’m going
>to do Y! Bwahahahaha!”

Perhaps because the person is not a Hispanic cartoonist and would not
use Bwahah to indicate laughter?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 17:34:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51705 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:27:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:11:50 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> > That is correct. If you do not think aercheologists have the evidence
>> > in the terms of their discipline you should straighten them out. I am
>> > certain they will be eternally grateful.
>>
>> What archeologists, Matty poo? The ones at the Museum of the
>> University of Pennsylvania seem to think that you are all wet.

>I take it I should add archeology and biblical scholarship as
>two more areas in which Giwer demonstrates his vast ignorance?

>Pity he hasn’t stumbled into my area of expertise like Moran
>did.

Explain it to Alec Grynspan first. Then get back to me.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 17:34:21 PDT 1996
Article: 51707 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:46:32 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Clearly you can not tell the difference from the type used for pest
>> control and the other types.

>It has yet to be demonstrated that any type was _not_ used in the
>extermination effort.

Proof of a negative? Are you truly that stupid?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 17:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 51708 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Choose your poison
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:25:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4sq1qa$[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:51:12 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Which would you choose? And remember, you have to choose.

>You only have to choose if you’re a Jew or some other “useless eater,”
>in Nazi-controlled Europe.

You miss the point. Jews gave up having a choice when they chose not to
violently resist getting on the trains to the camps.

The Choice in favor of dying was made at that point.

The only thing left was fast or slow after that decision was made.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 18:01:34 PDT 1996
Article: 51711 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WW I propaganda
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:00:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Wise, Stephen Samuel, 1874-1949

“What Are We Fighting For?”

What are we fighting for? My answer to mothers and fathers is —
enviable, even glorious is your
lot if you give your sons or bless their self-dedication to the highest
and holiest of causes in which
a people was ever engaged. Remember that you American men and women give
your sons to no
ordinary war, though outwardly it be war and nothing more. Remember that
America is not in war
for the sake of war. Grimly mocking paradox though it be, we have taken
up the burden of war not
for the sake of war, but for the sake of peace, which we would fain have
bless victor and
vanquished alike. We have taken up arms which we shall never ground
until the world be made
safe in the only way in which the life of nations dwelling together can
be made safe, by democracy
with peace and healing on its wings.

Remember this is not a war — it is the war. It is the contest of the
ages, which we and our allies
together can make the last human holocaust, if we be mighty in war and
even mightier in the
generosities and magnanimities of peace. Your sons have taken up arms
not to slay, but to bring
the hope of unbroken life to countless generations unborn. As your sons
bear fault to battle, be
strong mothers and fathers in the knowledge that the sacrificial task
unto which they are bent is
nothing less than to make the world free. If suffering and agony be your
and their lot, call to mind
the little children of Armenia, the wronged women of Belgium, the
enslaved men of Serbia, and
know that these things can never again come to pass, if your sons, our
younger brothers, be equal
to the challenge which a free world cannot refuse to meet.

And when you join in the act of sacrifice, let your spirit be willing
and even joyous as befits the
task that summons. Forget not that the sacrifice is to be for that which
is more precious than life,
even as holy as love — the liberty of men, the security of peace, the
faith of nations. Your
readiness to sacrifice may make sacrifice unasked hereafter, and your
children’s children, yea, all
the children of men, shall dwell amid peace and security if the
nobleness of the fathers be equal to
the heroism of the sons. It is not too late to save the world, to make
and keep the world free, to
rebuild an order of life that shall be just and righteous altogether.
That shall come to pass if you
claim for your sons something better than life, remembering to a man’s
perdition to be safe, when
for the truth he ought to die.

===

Rabbi Stephen S. Wise. “What are we fighting for? My answer to mothers
and fathers is, enviable
and even glorious is your lot to give your son or bless their dedication
to the highest and holiest of
causes in which a people was ever engaged

Reproduced from a vinyl test pressing with no label

Sound quality of recording is very good

Believed to be take 1

This recording has been reproduced by the Library of Congress through
the generosity of the
family of Guy Golterman, and with the cooperation of CBS-Sony Records
and the Recording
Industry Association of America

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 18:48:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51716 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer is confronted with his fascist ideas but chickens out (was: RE: Testimonial fiction)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 06:30:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:02:57 GMT, [email protected] (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>A couple of days ago Mr. Giwer backed out from a discussion of his totalitarian
>plan of establishing concentration camps for the unemployed. I managed to
>prove that Mr. Giwer, although constantly uses the US constitution as an
>argument, in his ideal state intends to give civil rights only to property owners and
>to give government to an undemocratic elite. Mr. Giwer ran away from this
>discussion because he was not able to answer. In the following, I repost the
>last part of the discussion in the hope of receiving an answer.

You are a lying asshole. And you afraid to ask your parents and
grandparents how many Jews they murdered simply because you do not want
to know the answer.

You are the descendent of murderers. You were raised by murderers. You
know their silence without asking means they were murderers.

Knock off your sanctimonious bullshit and face facts for the first time
in you life.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 18:48:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51719 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:08:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 2:11:09 AM CDT 1996
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On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 00:44:18 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>> DuPont’s pamplet “Hydrogen Cyanide: Properties, Uses, Storage, and
>> Handling” on page 12 says:

>> Experience has shown that almost all people can be taught to
>> detect HCN. One method is to have the individual take one or
>> two “sniffs” once per day for several days from a test bottle

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) responded:

>> And since the least [the Nazis] had were 1 Kg cans of it to work with,
>> this is a completely impractical method and thus they could not
>> clearly identify it.
>>
>> Thank you for the information.

>Mr. Giwer is here arguing that, because _he_ has never seen
>documentation of the Nazis having used small bottles of HCN in order to
>train people as to its scent, or other such training items, therefore
>such training was impossible and the Nazis could not have used Zyklon
>for any purpose (!?!).

Rather that YOU have NEVER seen any such documentation nor has any other
holohugger. But you know that.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:01 PDT 1996
Article: 51722 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: the need for Germany in the war against Bolshevism
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:17:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 7:19:58 PM CDT 1996
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Former Ambassador James W. Gerard. Warns of the “Coming conflict with
the Bolsheviki” and
assesses the causes of today’s social unrest

1917

“America Safe!”

If any man is afraid of bolshevism in America, I know how to cure him.
Let him visit a few schools.
Then let him talk to a few farmers. He will quickly discover that good
old-fashioned Americanism
is not dead. The farmer, in spite of the fact that he does not get a
fair return on the product of his
labor, is faithful to the principles on which this country was founded.
School children are still taught
the fundamentals of constitutional democracy. As long as this is so, we
are far from danger of
revolution.

Our national life is disturbed because of the high cost of living,
industrial unrest, and political
conflict. These are temporary problems if they are handled
intelligently. Anybody has the right to
advocate anything whatever, except a forcible change in our government
by violent means. I know
of no greater safety valve than to let a man talk. The dangerous ones
are the ones who don’t do
any talking, at least in public.

The unrest in this country today is psychic as well as industrial. We
are in a fair way to cure the
latter problem by creating a practical partnership between capital and
labor. Both sides realize
that there is greater profit in working together, than in fighting.
Labor will always get more than it
has in the past, and that is as it should be. Labor unions are here to
stay. The right of collective
bargaining and the right to strike to enforce demands must in the future
be taken for granted.
Practically everything which labor has won in the last half century has
been secured through
unions, which have not been conciliatory, but have fought for what they
got. You cannot make men
work by threatening them with jail. You cannot govern the country
industrially by injunction.

The high cost of living is due to our wasteful system of distribution.
Food products pass through
too many hands between the farmer and the consumer. Every unnecessary
middle-man should be
eliminated. No one should be allowed to take a profit, and thereby
increase the cost of a product,
unless he performs a legitimate service to the consumer.

Another cause for the high cost of living is our present taxation
system. The excess profit tax
places every businessman under an artificial and illogical restraint. If
you have a piece of property
which has increased in value and sell it, you are taxed on the profit,
with a result that no
businessman closes any sale nowadays if he can avoid it. Business ought
to be as easy to
transact as possible, but the present condition is just the reverse. Why
should a man embark on a
new enterprise today? If he does so and loses, he loses. If he wins, the
government takes nearly
all of it away from him, and so he loses anyhow.

In the coming conflict with the Bolsheviki, the Allies need the aid of
Germany, who is in a position
geographically and otherwise to be a strong bulwark against the Russian
hordes. It would be a
great mistake to destroy Germany. That she should be punished for
inaugurating the war goes
without saying, but punishment should not mean annihilation.

The Democratic party in office has been a party of achievement. Victory
will be ours in the coming
election, if we will firmly uphold our ideals. Let us restore goodwill
among the nations of the earth,
and advocate freedom for subject people everywhere. Let us stand for
freedom of business and
for the freedom and happiness of American homes.

=====

Additionly, anyone interested in evidence for the Libertarian Party in
the Democrat Party of Wilson can read it here.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51723 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Flap in France
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:33:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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The Cry of a Deportee

A 1940 Gaullist veteran of the Free French Forces (FFL), I was arrested
in October, 1943, and
deported for 18 months to Buchenwald, then to the hell of Dora, where
thousands of French
deportees lost their lives in the underground factories of V1 and V2. I
returned disabled.

This is to tell you that we shared with our Jewish comrades all the
ordeals of the camps. Having
said that, I ask journalists with what right they deny veteran deportees
the right to question
theories elevated to truth, not by Jewish deportees but by some
Zionists?

What kind of society do we live in, where we do not have the right to
criticize, in any manner,
either Jews or Israelis or Zionists, without being automatically accused
of anti-semitism or
racism?

Let journalists know one thing: The vast majority of deportees in Nazi
camps were not Jewish,
even though the media give credence to the thesis that only Jews were
deported and
exterminated.

Let them know, too, that in France, there were about 250,000 deportees,
of which about 25,000
were French Jews. Between 80,000 and 100,000 returned, of which about
15,000 were Jews.

Nobody speaks about the non-Jewish deportees. Why? There is a lot of
talk about Shoah, but
nothing about the underground factories of V1 and V2 in Dora, where
thousands of French
deportees died of exhaustion and bad treatment. Dora, too, was a camp of
extermination, by
work and by hunger.

As for Auschwitz, it is true that about 800,000 Jews from all of Europe
perished after 1943, but
we must not forget that the first exterminated deportees were 400,000
Soviet soldiers, about
150,000 gypsies, 500,000 to 600,000 Polish, and deportees of other
nationalities.

There is no talk about this, either. So why talk only about Jews’
sacrifices and conceal the
martyrdom of other deportees? They, too, have the right to memory.

As a senior deportee, Garaudy is saying the same thing, when he
maintains that deportation of
“non-Jews” was concealed and when he denounces the manipulation of
numbers, from the official
talk initially of about 4 million Jews exterminated in Auschwitz, now
reduced to 1 million.

Is it “revisionist” or “negationist” or even antisemitic to maintain
this?

In the camps, there was no monopoly by any category. We were all equal
in the face of suffering
and death.

We cannot accept that deportation be monopolized by some and that
journalists who have known
neither deportation nor war be permitted such manipulation.

Gaston Pernot
Doctor of Law
Commander of the Legion of Honor, Paris
(“Le Figaro,” Friday, May 3, 1996)

=====

One may also note his numbers and the percentages of those who returned.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:03 PDT 1996
Article: 51725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 01:55:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 8:57:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 19 Jul 1996 11:41:47 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>[posted; e-mailed to jamie McCarthy in hopes that he can start an
>archive of lies by Mr. Ehrlich]

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>>After war, the Soviets made the charge at Nuremberg. They claimed that
>>>>Dr. Spanner of the Danzig Institute was making soap at the Institute,
>>that
>>>>he carved his recipe, which he got from some people in the countryside,
>>>>onto a wooden plaque and had it posted on the wall of the basement.
>>>>Nobody else at the Institute knew anything about it. About 25 kilos of
>>>>this soap was prepared, which Dr. Spanner supposedly used for his
>>laundry
>>>>and also to wash himself. In addition, there were vats of human skin
>>that
>>>>were being tanned for handbags and such. The source for all this was
>>the
>>>>affidavit of Mazur. I would love to have all of Mazur’s
>>>>affidavit/testimony posted.
>>>
>>>Yes, please do post this testimony. I would like to see why you claim
>>>there are obvious problems with Mazur’s testimony.
>>>
>>
>>I just did. You are telling me that you believe what I just posted. That
>>settles that! As for the testimony, I don’t have it, perhaps you could
>>ask Nizkor to post it. It should have come towards the end of February,
>>1946. Naturally, Nuremberg historians do not reference this particular
>>affidavit/testimony very often(!), so I can’t be more specific than that.

>Mr. Ehrlich, you are not being quite straightforward here. Please quote
>where I said that I believed anything that you posted. You did not post
>any comments on Mazur’s testimony itself. You have claimed that there
>are obvious problems with it, but have not referenced it. You have made
>a claim without any evidence to support it.

>>Not only do you believe everything I just posted, you also believe that
>>there is nothing surprising about the fact that Dr. Spanner was unmolested
>>for the rest of his life, not even being subjected to
>>institutionalization. OK.

>Mr. Ehrlich: you are a liar. Not surprising with the company you keep.

Faced with facts you attack the messenger.

You have to believe the “testimony” in order not find a problem with the
testimony. You are very gullible.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:03 PDT 1996
Article: 51726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:02:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:59:08 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >Now try and pay attention, Matt. I said that the French lived throughout
>> >the Northeast before the Revolution, and gave Detroit as one example. Now,
>> >don’t you think it would be logical to assume that if they were present
>> >so far west they might also be present just to the south of Quebec in
>> >New York, New Hampshire and Vermont?
>>
>> The subject was “ethnic” contribution to the American revolution, not
>> where they happened to live. And whatever you migth “imagine” it is
>> logical to assume, has no bearing upon ethnic contribution to the
>> Revolution.
>>
>> By the Proclamation Line of 1763 the areas you refer to were declared
>> Indian Country and formed the western limits of the colonies. If you
>> look it up you will find the areas you refer to were to the west of that
>> line.

>New York, New Hampshire and Vermont were considered Indian Country? What
>were the original 13 states, Giwer?

Look up a map at the time of the revolution and find out.

The colonies ended at the Appalachians and from there to the Mississippi
was claimed by Britain. (You do remember that the colonies had
charters, do you not?)

The independent states were established with the Revolution and as part
of the peace treaty Britain ceded claims to the above territory.

Don’t you wish you had paid attention in class?

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:04 PDT 1996
Article: 51742 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:13:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-31.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 19 2:16:19 AM PDT 1996
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On 18 Jul 1996 21:06:31 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Miloslav Bilik <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>Matt Giwer said:
>>
>>>>> The problem is that the ability to smell (SMELL) HCN gas is it lacking
>>>>> in a small percentage of the population.
>>
>>I have no reference for that. The mean threshold is 50 ppm. Heavy
>>smokers can smell HCN at much lower levels, but I have nothing about
>>lacking in smelling HCN.
>>
>>What is your reference ?

>DuPont’s pamplet “Hydrogen Cyanide: Properties, Uses, Storage, and
>Handling” on page 12 says:

> Experience has shown that almost all people can be taught to
> detect HCN. One method is to have the individual take one or
> two “sniffs” once per day for several days from a test bottle
> containing HCN. Odor (or recognition) of HCN must be learned
> by each individual. Some people detect HCN more by taste or
> feeling than by odor.

And since the least they had were 1 Kg cans of it to work with, this is
a completely impractical method and thus they could not clearly identify
it.

Thank you for the information.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:05 PDT 1996
Article: 51752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 03:11:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 10:14:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80164 alt.revisionism:51752

On 20 Jul 1996 19:14:44 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
Weineck) wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, Silke-Maria Weinec wrote:
>: >
>: >If it doesn’t matter to you that other people died a gruesome death, why
>: >should it matter to us whether you can continue to blabber on?
>: >
>: Hey a lot of people have died a gruesome deaths all the way through history
>: and even today people are tortured to death in many countries around the
>: world (if you are going to believe e.g. reports by Amnestry International).
>: Silke, can you give me just one good reason why I should care more about
>: people murdered by _you_ Germans during Hitler than people murdered in
>: Uganda during Idi Amin or Cambodians murdered by the Khmer Rouge? In
>: Cambodia more than one million people were killed. Why should I be allowed
>: to suggest that this figure is very much exaggerated and distorted due to
>: Vietnamese propaganda, which was created with the purpose of legitimating the
>: Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodja, if I am not allowed to say,
>: that much about the treatment of the Jews by the Germans during WW2 are
>: likewise exaggerated and distorted in order to overshadow Allied war-crimes
>: and the Jewish conquest of Palestine? Give me one good reason why I should
>: care more about the German treatment of the Jews during WW2 than the
>: American treatment of the Red Indians during the expansion of the USA (or
>: the American creation of “Lebensraum” to the West) and the Negroes before
>: the abolishment of the slavery? What makes the Germans and the Jews so
>: special?

>You shouldn’t deny the gruesome deaths of anyone that comes to your
>notice; you are human; you are called upon to at least witness. My point
>was not about the special status of a group of victims, but about the
>fact that you seem to think that you can have human rights, civil rights,
>in an atmosphere where you dehumanize yourself.

“Witness” what? That is a religious usage. And, yes, we all agree this
is a religious issue.

In the religious sense it means, “I have no first hand knowledge but I
will swear that I believe it.”

You attitude in the rest of your post is clearly religious.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 21:46:06 PDT 1996
Article: 51757 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Join the Gang of Eight: Edit a Giwer page today!
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 03:27:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 10:30:18 PM CDT 1996
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On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 10:04:26 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>
>> Are you really the one who hassled by parents in their 80s to get my
>> phone number or was that one of your gang?
>>
>> What is your area code so we can talk? This is the rest that came
>> through. 863-3905. Is that correct?
>>
>> Now the gang has taken to harrassing my parents.
>>
>> Is there anyone going to hold me guilty of other than righteous
>response
>> after this? My phone number is available on the web yet some asshole
>> had to call them.
>>
>> What little patience I have had for you folks is about at its limits.
>> There is almost none left.
>>
>> It will be stopped.
>
>I’m not certain if you are referring to me or to Mr. McVay, since this was
>a conversation between the two of us.

Private conversations exist only in email.

>If you are referring to me, believe me, Mr. Giwer, I have thousands of
>better things to do than to try and harass you in any way. Unlike you, I
>have a life.
>
>If you are referring to me, I believe you owe me an apology for this
>completely unwarranted accusation.

Only if you are a member of the gang and you can demonstrate innocense.

Beyond that, you beliefs are irrelevent.

>If you are referring to Mr. McVay, I’d be willing to stake my reputation
>on the fact that Mr. McVay also has much better things to do than to waste
>his time with a troller like yourself.
>
>Who are the “you folks” you refer to, Mr. Giwer? Just WHO are you referring to?
>
>Waiting for my apology,

You will have a long wait, fatbroad.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 23:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:23:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 11:25:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:23:38 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> No holocaust historian has ever maintained that there were 4 million
>>killed at Auschwitz.
>>
>> Therefore there were no holocaust historians before 1991.
>>
>> And as we know that includes the curator of A-B.

> Interesting logic.

Multivalued logic. Some days these holohugging clowns will read
Korzybski, maybe. But if I said he was Jewish …

It seems to follow, though there might be a
>couple out of the score that didn’t agree. These are the ones the
>Holocaust dedicated will cite to discredit you Giwer.

They are already using a pharmacist to discredit me. Next will be a
janitor.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 23:22:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 01:47:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 8:49:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:26:06 -0400, [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Hoess “wrote” a lot of things that are incompatable.

>(sigh) No, he didn’t.

>> Rather knowing they were “well designed gas chambers” one would simply
>> have warmed up a thick piece a metal by placing it near an oven. Put
>> that in the bottom of the “column” and they only needed to drop in a
>> small amount, all of which would outgas nearly instantly. That would
>> solve all of the problems your complicated creation introduces.

>And guess what? There is testimony that one of the techniques tried to
>improve the effectiveness of the gassing procedure was to heat a brick
>and to drop the Zyklon onto the brick. (If memory serves, this
>testimony was subjected to ruthless examination by Doug Christie, who
>determined without a doubt that bricks could not be heated red-hot, an
>astonishing revelation dimmed only slightly by later revisionist
>testimony about red-hot bricks.)

>So, imagine that, the Nazis did what one would expect they did.

>I’m sure you will evaluate this evidence fairly and impartially, without
>leaping to any conclusions.

But you will mis-state anything you can to save your holocaust.

His point was that if they were red hot the HCN would ignite.

However, one story out of many that happens to mention heat does not
salvage the idiot wiremesh concoction you folks are trying to push.

From [email protected] Sat Jul 20 23:22:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51768 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “I will … this weekend.”
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 03:23:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 10:26:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:12:55 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> The record shows no such thing you lying asshole.

> Poor Mr.Edeiken. He’s all uptight. Veins pulsating in his neck.
>Legs jerking up and down. Foot wagging to and fro. Hair sticking out.
>Foaming at the mouth. Wrenching his garments.

That’s “rending.” These folks do a lot of garment rending. Of course
it was break away stitching like in the movies but it has its dramatic
effect.

Ears flapping back and
>forth. Arms flailing around. Head shaking. Sweat dripping down. Fist
>clenched. Banging on his keyboard. Hugging hiself.
> Not calmly sitting. Not at ease. Not a comfortable puppy. Not at
>peace within hiself. Only at “shalom” with hiself.

> “No such thing” Mr.Edeiken? Whatzat, “no such thing”?

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill ‘Only’ 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:03:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 1:06:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 00:56:14 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:18:54 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>(A photograph of the letter can be seen in
>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/brack.victor/images)
>>
>>>Letter from SS-Oberfuehrer Brack to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, June 23, 1942
>>>[Documents on the Holocaust – Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>>>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 272]
>>>——————————————————————–
>>>Honorable Mr. Reichsfuehrer!
>>

>[…]

>>>[…] Castration by means of X-rays,
>>>however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on
>>>many thousands in a very short time. I believe that it has become
>>>unimportant at the present time whether those affected will then
>>>in the course of a few weeks or months realize by the effects that
>>>they are castrated.

>[snip]

>> Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

X-Rays are many decades older (1898?). It was certainly known long
before 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

I would rather complain to those who believe this nonsense.

>> In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
>>to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
>>of the sperm producing cells.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

He reports FACT. Obviously the fact is untrue, as in imagined,
conjured, forged or subborned.

>> What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality it
>>also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
>>better approach.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

>> But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

>>They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

>> Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
>>find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
>>dormant cells to confirm this. But you never will. You are all
>>holohuggers.

> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.

> Complain to Brack.

Your ignorance of science is overwhelming.

That you do not realize how ignorant you are is merely amusing.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:59:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 1:02:00 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 01:09:44 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> If it was the real Ken McVay who called my parents to get my phone
>>number, the one he left, 862-3905 did not come with the right area code.

> If it was not the real Ken McVay, it sure would be a good way for
>somebody who doesn’t like Ken to stir up trouble for him. FWIW, unless it
>has changed since he gave it to me, I have Ken’s phone number, and
>862-3905 isn’t it.

You prefer this?

1-604-382-0615

>> If you really want to talk, it is not hard to find my real phone number
>>if you can master a browser.

> If you really want to know who it was, it is not hard to contact the
>phone company and report phone harrassment. The police seem to be capable
>of getting the ID of callers if the phones use modern digital switching
>equipment.

You should look into it some day.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Rock Opera
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:15:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 10:18:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 22:38:30 +0100, Jeffrey
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, OWEN KING
>writes

>>The Following is taken from a rock opera I have been working on for
>>almost a decade. This is the scene where Hitler introduces himself. If
>>anyone is interested in further postings or info please email me.
>>
>>HITLER:
>>(to himself)
>>
>> Government Is The Decadent Realization Of Man’s Pain
>> Those Who Control The Masses
>> Continue To Breed Their Rotting Strain
>> This Forces The Self, To Strike Out
>> In Anger, Yet To Even Realize This, Is To Place
>> Yourself In Danger.
>>
>> etc

>You’re too late chief, it’s been done.

>And now it’s Holocaust the musical….

Produced and directed by Mel Brooks no doubt.

After all, who else can get away with it?

=====

It’s the gassing, yes, yes, yes

Not the working, no. no, no

Eeney, meeney, miney, moe

A whiff of gas and off they go

Ho lo caust, yes, yes, yes

Not Ty phus, no, no, no

======

Goosestepping nazi women in leather. gelatinous masses of flesh, S&M,
the whips, the rifle butts, the dogs at the genitals. Everything needed
for a XXX rated porn flick. And right out of the Mel Brooks style
manual.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words… (was McVay, never a Marine…)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:16:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:53:21 -0700, [email protected] (Rajiv K. Gandhi)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[stuff deleted]

>> But you harrassed a fellow Marine in his 80s and very close to the end
>> just to get my phone number.

>Not to speak for Mr. McVay, but you have not substantiated this claim in
>any aspect.

I have no interest in anything but making it public.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score — posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:25:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 1:28:05 AM CDT 1996
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On 20 Jul 1996 20:38:48 -0700, [email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Hey Baseball Fans:

>Now that you have all read and revised The Program, from Rich Green, here
>are the numbers, from an analysis of articles that hit my server over the
>last four weeks.

>Please note that articles expired, canceled, or superseded for whatever
>reason are not counted.

>Despite the one-time intervention of Despammer God Chris Lewis, which cost
>Mr. Giwer some 60 lengthy articles, Mr. Giwer maintains his commanding
>lead over all pretenders to the dubious title of “most prolific.”

In fact I pointed out to him how he was being so easily used by the holohuggers in their
harrassment campaign and he stopped his efforts.

>Running a distant, but decisive, second is Mr. Moran. While Mr. Moran’s
>posts include a number of duplicates and inanities, his contributions to
>the group mst be recognized for what they are. Please extend to Mr. Moran
>the appropriate salute.

>In third place we have Yale Edeiken, with Alec Grynspan hot on his heels,
>thanks in part to the propensity of both to respond to Giwer’s inanities.

This is as it should be. This is not a holohugger conference.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Would even Jerry Rivers let this happen?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:25:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Strange interrogations

One of the more interesting aspects of questions asked of
the witnesses and those charged (from what purport to be
transcripts) is that they don’t pursue what one would expect to
be of serious interest to the questioner. For example where you
would expect the questioner to carefully lead a witness through
every step of what he knows about the case that was not the case.
When a witness is asked, did you see any people gassed and
the answer is yes the follow up question will be for a
description of what he saw. The answer will be something
typically morbid with contrary to science embellishments.
Questions that are not asked are, for example, can you
identify any of the people who did the gassing? Can you identify
the building? Is this a picture of the building? None of those
tedious questions that go to establishing the credibility of the
witness are asked.
Thus we are left today with many problems such as the “guess
which building” problem. There are similar problems with
witnesses to cremation, people, most everything else. Every time
the questioner gets a response that would ordinarily be explored
to establish credibility and develop further information it does
not happen.
The problem becomes that this is like no other prosecutorial
questioning we are familiar with. It is clearly not to establish
the facts of the case. It is not to gather information for other
cases. It is not clear what the purpose is other than to create
a record that is convincing only to those unfamiliar with the way
direct examinations of witnesses are conducted.

Who was in charge of these investigations?

Prior to the end of the war, the rumors had it that every
camp had a gas chamber. After the war they were only found in
territories controlled by the Russians. And of course the
Russians were solely responsible for investigation of what had
occurred in Russia.
And only the Russians found gas chambers. This was of
course the Soviet system of justice, world renown for it
fairness, honesty and integrity. Ask Alexander Solzenitzyn about
it. He spent enough time in a Gulag because of it.
The Soviet system has never been particularly interested in
a careful trial for those it has determined are guilty. Consider
that they convicted several Nazis of murdering some 3200 Polish
officers when the Soviets were the ones who had killed them. It
is not clear why anyone would have any confidence in the Soviet
justice system simply because they found so many gas chambers and
mass murders in light of their willingness to use the legal
system to murder others.
Does one unconditional reject all Soviet evidence and
trials? Of course not. But knowing what they did do they must
be held to a very much higher standard of scrutiny than that
developed by the US, French and British. And that standard of
scrutiny must be such that it would uncover the massacre of
Polish troops had that been subjected to the same standards.
That is a high standard, certainly too high for historians
to meet but without meeting this standard Soviet evidence can be
granted no credibility. After all, they did miss those
responsible for the massacre of the Polish officers.



From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Note the date, 16 months ago.
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:30:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Learn to love it.

Holodeck Caust
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <3/22>

The title of this does not matter. If it were entitled, The
Horror of the Holocaust, what I am going to write will bring out
the same response. And just for the record …
During WW II, 31 million civilians were unaccounted for. 12
million were last known headed for Nazi run camps. Half of those
12 million were Jews. Of this there is no question, none
whatsoever, period and I will happily discuss the matter
rationally with anyone claiming otherwise.
I hope that is clear enough. But I want to get some other
things clarified. These are the misconceptions about those who
are pontificating about the Holocaust.
By and large, even the most famous person who tells the
story of the Holocaust is either a survivor or an archivalist
type of historian. They are not scientists. They are not
critical historians. Rather they are the type that repeated the
story of Custer’s Last Stand until this generation who decided to
actually take a look and see if they could explain why what
happened did happen in some rational manner.
That is to say, there are NO critical historians
investigating the Holocaust. They are only archiving all the
stories they can find with a minimal skepticism of the content of
the story or the person telling it. They are also by and large
survivors or near survivors themselves and are not interested in
skepticism.
I am not saying this is necessarily bad or wrong. Certainly
while there are still eye witnesses alive it is more important to
collect all that is possible before they die and evidence
deteriorates than to spend limited time upon making sense of it
all.
But this leads to a very false presumption, that there is a
coherent understanding of what happened during the Holocaust,
specifically in the camps. More specific to the issue of
questioning certain aspects of the Holocaust those who defend it
pretend or imply that the “scholars” who have studied it have
already answered all the questions about it until they are tired
of answering the questions any longer. That is a false
impression. There has never been any rigorous answer to the REAL
questions that are posed.
Certainly there are extreme groups who taint everything who
claim no one died in any of the camps and certainly their
position is untenable. There are sufficient records to indicate
that 12 million were last known to be headed to the camps and,
barring escapes, they were not heard from again. But to put it
in perspective the total is 31 million civilians unaccounted for,
more than half with no idea where they were seen last headed.
But when it comes to the lesser details of whether people in
the camps died of being worked to death, starvation, disease(s)
or any slow and painful combination of those or a quick gassing,
there exist no quick and ready, so often repeated as to be a
waste of time answers presented. In fact, there have been no
such answers presented. Variations upon “I don’t have to answer
that because it has been answered already,” are completely
false.
Is all death from disease accounting for all the deaths
impossible? In the week after the liberation of
Auschwitz-Birkenau the death rate from disease was high enough
that all 12 million deaths could have been accounted for by that
one camp. Throw in starvation, work exhaustion (stroke and heart
attack) and there is no need to insist upon gassing as a means of
death in addition to the clear reports of bullets in the head and
the like.
Now perhaps there really was gassing as so many insist.
There are clearly questions about the stories in that eye witness
accounts of these deaths by cyanide poisoning are gruesomely
different from today’s eye witness reports of deaths by cyanide
in gas chambers. And I assure you, no holocaust scholar has ever
addressed or explained the difference.
There are specific stories of people being packed into rooms
to an impossible number per square meter with plenty of room to
spare that have never been addressed despite implications that it
has all been explained many times before.
Now clearly there may be nontrivial but valid explanations
for these matters but they have not been discussed openly nor
ever answered save possibly by some obscure person that no one
can name much less provide the explanation. There has been no
scientific or critical historic research into answering these
discrepancies. Or, if it does exist, I have yet to find the
person who can give me the reference to the source AND provide a
credible indication he knows the answer is contained in it. Few
can even give an indication they ever even read what they are
referencing and citations of multi-volume works are the most
popular.
When we find scientists refuting the pseudoscience of
creationists we find them posting physical laws, research data,
peer reviewed sources. And we find them outnumbering the
creationists ten to one. When we come to questioning the details
of the holocaust we do not find anything of the kind. Rather we
find the reverse of the issue, creationists claim it is all in
their bible and that is all the proof they need. Holocaust
supporters claim it is all in their books and treat those books
as sacred just as creationists treat the bible.
The holocaust supporters are not racing to be the first to
post the well established, peer reviewed information that refutes
the question posed about the details of the holocaust. Rather,
like the creationists, their attitude is “why should I have to?”
I have no problem that the gassing might have happened. I
am also equally certain that if there are clear and well known
answers to the questions, no one knows them. Part of this may be
due to the scientific illiteracy of the holocaust supporters. To
them the fifty year old memories of a demented 70 year old person
are just as likely to be true as the boiling point of cyanide is
different from what it has been measured to be.
It is a false impression that the Holocaust has been
critically investigated and that questions have been answered and
the answers critically reviewed. However, if you are being lead
to believe all skeptical questions about the details of the
Holocaust were answered long ago, you are being mislead. They
have not been answered. There are no clear answers to any of the
questions.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 5)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:42:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:51810 soc.history:7013 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:226

On 20 Jul 1996 04:00:06 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-10q
>Last-Modified: 1996/07/17

>”He who makes a claim bears the responsibility
> of supporting it.” (Matt Giwer)

>Question 1 [February 1996]
>————————–

Someone pass the word to this slimey bastard mongoloid to stop
harrassing my parents.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:29 PDT 1996
Article: 51812 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Just for fun
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:19:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Ten Commandments Temple Tour

Guide: And here we have the Ark of the Covenant. Are there any questions?

Tourist: What are those things on the top?

Guide: Thoes my dear lady are seraphim.

Tourist: What are seraphim?

Guide: They are the winged protectors of the Ark of the Covenant.

Tourist: You mean like budgies?

Guide: Not budgies, madam, they are powerful winged protectors of the ark.

Tourist: They look like budgies. You can even see their little beaks.

Guide: Madam, those are muzzles. Were it not for the muzzles we could not get this
close. They would
be ripping us to shreds at this very moment.

Tourist: Look sort of cute to me.

Guide: They are not cute. They are vicious, fearsome protectors of the Ark.

Tourist: Are you sure this is the right Ark?

Guide: Yes, I am certain. Now if you will all follow me, this next exhibit is the
actual stone tablets of the
ten commandments. This commandments were carved by the hand of YHWH himself.

Tourist: Old unspeakable has chisel fingers I see.

Guide: His fingers are perfect, madam. He does not have chisel fingers.

Tourist: Then what are these chisel marks doing here?

Guide: Those are not chisel marks. They are part of the natural stone formation.

Tourist: Are not. They’re just like on my late husbands gravestone.

Guide: Are not.

Tourist: Are too.

Guide: Are not.

Tourist: Liar! Take a look.

Guide: Hmmm, yes, well they do sort of look a little like chisel marks.

Tourist: Sort of? You can even see where it needed sharpening down here when it gets
to the coveting
part.

Guide: Oh, yes, madam, I see. Ummmm. These must be the second set of tablets carved
by Moses.

Tourist: Why would he do that?

Guide: The first set was, ummmm, broken, that’s it, broken.

Tourist: Now why would Moses go and break a perfectly good set of tablets?

Guide: Ummmm.

Tourist: Gotcha there!

Guide: You have not. Moses dropped them to the ground.

Tourist: Why wouldn’t he be more careful ? It isn’t everyone that gets such a nice
set of tablets from
YHWH.

Guide: He was angry? Yes, that’s it, he was angry and he threw them to the ground.

Tourist: Angry at what?

Guide: Your ancestors were breaking the first commandment.

Tourist: How were they to know this first commandment if he went and smashed them
before they could
read it?

Guide: Hmmmmmm.

Tourist: Gotcha there!

Guide: Madam it is people like you who are going to get this tour ended forever.

Tourist: About bloody time. Two Turtledoves for a couple of budgies and some poor
stonework. I’ve ‘alf a
mind to demand my turtledoves back.

Guide: You can’t have them back.

Tourist: And why not?

Guide: They have been sacrificed.

Tourist: Sacrificed!?!?! To what?

Guide: To YHWH himself.

Tourist: They’ve been sacrificed to your dinner more likely. You expect me to believe
this great YHWH
eats food?

Guide: He doesn’t eat them. They are merely sacrificed.

Tourist: Never heard of such a thing! There are people starving in Chaldea and here
you are wasting
perfectly good turtledoves. If my children wasted food like that I’d make them go to
bed without any
honeycakes.

Guide: That’s enough, madam. All right, everyone out. This is now the Holy Of Holies,
off limits to the
likes of you.

Tourist: A bloody sideshow if you ask me.

Guide: I wasn’t asking you. Out! before I call the guards.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:41:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:30:54, [email protected] (Joel Rosenberg)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Subject: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
>>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:55:40 GMT

>>On 19 Jul 1996 16:29:15 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
>>OBC) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] (Ursus Major) wrote:

>>>>thing that breathes! Those of the Mosaic Confession who slither about
>>>>here don’t like to be reminded of that portion of their Torah;, and
>>>>when reminded of it, REFUSE to discuss it. Perhaps your Evangelical
>>>>Excellenz could have a go at it.

>>>Isn’t Lehmann a Jewish name, George?

>>>>SEMPER FIDELIS (et Semper Prudens)!

>>>Glad I’m not in the Corps anymore, George.

>> But you harrassed a fellow Marine in his 80s and very close to the end
>>just to get my phone number.

>> You worthless slime.

>> Marines do not do that to each other.

>> May I suggest my patience is near an end?

>> You had better respond real soon now.

>> This is another of those next to last warnings just to give you time to
>>do so.

>> You claim I am in your killfile. That is your claim. My posts are
>>public. If you choose not to read them then you have brought your
>>problems upon yourself. And I think I can bring down half of the corp
>>upon you for what you are doing to my parents, one of whom is a marine.

>> Mr. McVay, my terms are very simple.

>> EVERY mention of me disappears from NIZKOR without expection in any
>>manner or form, period, no exceptions. Not even oblique references or
>>secondary quotations. EVERYTHING goes as though it never existed.

>> You publically post that you will take action and that you do take
>>action against anyone who contacts any member of my family or me in any
>>derogatory manner save via this newsgroup.

>> That you do not play lawyer and find a way to circumvent these terms.

>> Is that clear enough?

>> Or shall I spell it out further?

>> If I have to spell it out further, unspecified penalities will be
>>invoked.

>> I hope this is clear.

>Hee hee heee.

>Sue and be damned.

>Pretty, pretty please.

This time I said nothing about suing.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:26:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 20 Jul 1996 13:06:24 GMT, Nele Abels
wrote:

>Listen to the illiterate, listen to the uneducated, listen to the
>ignorant:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>No holocaust historian has ever maintained that there were 4 million
>>killed at Auschwitz.

>>Therefore there were no holocaust historians before 1991.

>Completely illogical…quite typical for Mr. Giwer.

>Apart from that, considering the “non-existence” of holocaust historians
>before 1991, I went over to the shelves with the historical
>bibliographies took out _one_ of at least fifty volumes, the
>_Jahresberichte für deutsche Geschichte, N.F. 21 1969_. I opened the
>Index, looked up “Konzentrationslager” disregarding other cross indices.

>I found 5 pages with 68 titles. I will give a _short_ list for you to
>check. I would be glad if you will publish your results in this
>newsgroup.

>Levin, Nora: “The holocaust. The destruction of European Jewry,
>1933-1945” New York: Crowell, 1968.

>Saurel, Louis: “Les camps de la mort”. Paris: Rouff, 1967.

>Steiner, J. M.: “Social Instructions and social mange under national
>socialist rule. An analysis of process of escalation into mass
>destruction”, Diss. Freiburg, 1968.

>”Die Opfer der nationalsozialistischen Judenverfolgungen in
>Baden-Württembert 1933-1945. Ein Gedenkbuch”. Stuttgart, Kohlhammer,
>1969.

>Snoek, J.M.: “The grey book. A collection of protests against
>anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews issued by non-Roman Catholic
>churches and church leaders during Hitler’s rule”. Assen: Van Gorcum,
>1969.

>Mind you, this is only a tiny extract from a single year. So please stop
>babbling about things you don’t know anything about.If you insist on
>commenting on historical subjects without in any way being qualified to
>do so, would you please at least try to learn the basic tools of the
>trade.

>Nele

>P.S. I forgot something that your IQ163 certainly needs being explained:
>a bibliography is a collection of titles on a certain topic.

They can not be holocaust historians unless they held the present day
number for the deaths at A-B. You are invited to establish their
credentials by posting their agreement with the present day number for
A-B. Until that is established they are not holocaust historians.

And if you insist they were holocaust historians then if they supported
any number larger than today’s number then holocaust historians DID
support a larger number than exists today and the number did not add up
to 6 million until 1991.

There is something rotten in the State of Denmark, and the holohuggers
need be taken out.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 09:07:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Exploiting Atlanta Olympics for Zionism – first report
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:49:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 15:21:14 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>
> “Olympics Revive Memories of Munich”
> L.A.Times, 7/20/96

>”Relatives of those
>killed in 1972 terrorist
>attack come to Atlanta
>seeking some remembrance
>of the tragedy.”

> “Atlanta — For most of the 2 million people pouring into Atlanta
>for the Centennial Olympic Games, these are exciting times. Not for
>Mimi Weinberg.
> … Her husband, Muni, was killed by Arab terrorists …
> In the wake of the bombings at the New York’s World Trade Center
>and the Oklahoma City federal building — and the crash this week of
>TWA Flight 800 …
> It isn’t likely that anyone, in such an atmosphere, will forget
>how suddenly elation can turn to horror. But if they do, Weinberg and
>other family members are here to remind them.
> ‘I want America and I want Europe to know that what happened to
>me can happen to you … We must never forget’.
> ….
> Mimi Weinberg said she knows that the Olympics, for most people,
>are a time of celebration and joy, ‘Wee don’t want to destroy that,
>.. We just want one minute, just two seconds, to remember what
>happened’.

> The delegation, which is sponsored by the Isreali Olympic
>Committee, said they had been promised by Olympic officials that a
>moment of silence would be observed during Friday nights opening
>ceremonies to remember the Israelis who died.
> ‘Then they said they’d changed their minds’ Guri Weinberg said,
>’They didn’t give a reason’.
> Bob Brennan, spokesman for the Atlanta Committee … said the
>possibility of a moment of silence was never discussed.
> ‘That’s not true’ he said of the Weinbergs’ allegation.
> …
> The family members blame it on politics. ‘We don’t want to talk
>politics’ said Romano, who lives in Israel, ‘All we want is
>recognition for what happened. Nobody cares’.
> Their only hope for recognition, she said, was that NBC might
>train their cameras on them for a moment in the stands during the
>ceremonies.

> A few months ago it was reported in the L.A.Times how a
>delegation from Israel with Jewish children wounded in terrorist
>attacks went to Oklahoma City to exploit that disaster.

And after calling in some reporters, they walked out of the opening
ceremonies.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 11:39:37 PDT 1996
Article: 80182 of soc.culture.german
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:48:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80182 alt.revisionism:51827

On 21 Jul 1996 03:43:50 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
Weineck) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 20 Jul 1996 19:14:44 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
>: Weineck) wrote:

>: >Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: In article <[email protected]>, Silke-Maria Weinec wrote:
>: >: >
>: >: >If it doesn’t matter to you that other people died a gruesome death, why
>: >: >should it matter to us whether you can continue to blabber on?
>: >: >
>: >: Hey a lot of people have died a gruesome deaths all the way through history
>: >: and even today people are tortured to death in many countries around the
>: >: world (if you are going to believe e.g. reports by Amnestry International).
>: >: Silke, can you give me just one good reason why I should care more about
>: >: people murdered by _you_ Germans during Hitler than people murdered in
>: >: Uganda during Idi Amin or Cambodians murdered by the Khmer Rouge? In
>: >: Cambodia more than one million people were killed. Why should I be allowed
>: >: to suggest that this figure is very much exaggerated and distorted due to
>: >: Vietnamese propaganda, which was created with the purpose of legitimating the
>: >: Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodja, if I am not allowed to say,
>: >: that much about the treatment of the Jews by the Germans during WW2 are
>: >: likewise exaggerated and distorted in order to overshadow Allied war-crimes
>: >: and the Jewish conquest of Palestine? Give me one good reason why I should
>: >: care more about the German treatment of the Jews during WW2 than the
>: >: American treatment of the Red Indians during the expansion of the USA (or
>: >: the American creation of “Lebensraum” to the West) and the Negroes before
>: >: the abolishment of the slavery? What makes the Germans and the Jews so
>: >: special?

>: >You shouldn’t deny the gruesome deaths of anyone that comes to your
>: >notice; you are human; you are called upon to at least witness. My point
>: >was not about the special status of a group of victims, but about the
>: >fact that you seem to think that you can have human rights, civil rights,
>: >in an atmosphere where you dehumanize yourself.

>: “Witness” what? That is a religious usage. And, yes, we all agree this
>: is a religious issue.

>: In the religious sense it means, “I have no first hand knowledge but I
>: will swear that I believe it.”

>: You attitude in the rest of your post is clearly religious.

>Sure. It’s the religion of knowing who has the better documentation; it’s
>the religion of hating stupidity almost as much as cruelty since the
>former prepares the way for the latter.

But were you honest you would know you are not basing anything upon what
you know but swearing to what you have been told to believe.

Were you honest you would admit you have no basis for your belief.

Were you honest with yourself you would admit you have not critically
considered and reviewed the smallest fraction of what you believe.

That of course means you are no better than a true believer, a convert,
a mindless follower. Your only contribution is to repeat a catechism of
what you have come to believe but of which you have no knowledge.

You have no intellectual contribution to this discussion. It is as
though you have never thought at all.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51825 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:05:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:08:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:35:43 GMT, [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> They are already using a pharmacist to discredit me. Next will be a
>>janitor.

>Bzzzzt. Wrong Giwer-troll. Your _own_ words discredit you, every
>single time. And you are so successful at discrediting yourself that
>you are now discrediting Ehrlich who has for some reason (presumably
>one that is known only to himself) decided to align himself with you.

Dear Fatbroad,

Pressac is a pharmacist. He is not a historian. Keep that in mind while you are
clubbing snakes.

Have you ever met a woman you didn’t like?

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:50 PDT 1996
Article: 51828 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What was the plan for the holocaust?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:11:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:14:55 AM CDT 1996
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What was the plan for the Holocaust?

Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is
the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level
official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it
discusses two plans, before and after the conference.
The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to
change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. It
adresses no other group. This is the most interesting point.
There is nothing in it that addressed the other 6 million
(presently reduced to 5.2 million) involved which is of note. In
other words we have a plan for in fact 11 million Jews on the
presumption of winning the war against Russia, yet not one word
regarding anyone else being involved in it, not one homosexual,
Slav, gypsy, no one. If this in fact is the plan it is very
clearly not a complete plan.
What makes this interesting is that the majority of the
holocaust victim peoples have zero documentation for anything
ever having been ordered to happen to them. Why in the world
would there be no documentary evidence for any of the 6.8 million
others?
The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be
moved out of Europe. The is referred to as “to the east” and by
the curious word “emigrated” in the common translation. No death
camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe,
certainly a violation of human rights but that is it.
After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister.
The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death
by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a
deliberate plan to kill people introduced but by this means
only. This appears to be in clear emulation of the Gulag system
started by Lenin and continued under every Soviet leader until
1986 when Gorbechov ended it. It is reprehensible but it was
nothing new with the Nazis. In fact today you can not find many
people working up a holocaust-like sweat over it even though at
several times all foreign nationals were rounded up for service
in these camps and worse.
In between the description of these two plans there is what
appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well
in the East. The advance had been stalled at that time and was
turned around a year later with the surrender of the German 6th
Army at Stalingrad. Given that problem, the use of labor camps
rather than for road construction was a reasonable modification
in the plan.
But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention
whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to
death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65
to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar
provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I. There is a
mention of sterilization only for those who have married non-Jews
and who are useful to the government. But again no mention of
German homosexuals or gypsies or the infirm or anyone else.
The conclusion of course is that although this document is
often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned
to exterminate the Jews from the very beginning, it is clearly
nothing of the kind. That plan in even the worst case
interpretation was developed in late 1941.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51833 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer’s Encouragements
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:22:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 10:25:46 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Jul 1996 12:25:29 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/encouragements/

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | https://nizkor.org
>———————–| Prince Myshkin’s Troll Bait Sold Here
> |————————————–
> https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

The slimey bastard who harrassed my parents has asked for whatever
happens to him.

He is obviously a holohugger. No ethics at all. That basest of
creatures upon the face of the earth.

The true incarnation of David Dahlman and Chuch Ferree in this disgrace
to the OBC.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51837 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: very tasteless
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:21:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 2:24:35 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

“Gassing?”

“Yes.”

“Two doors down. Second chamber on the left. NEXT!”

“Gassing?”

“No. It was all a big misunderstanding. I’m not Jewish after all.”

“Oh … well… off you go.”

“Just kidding. I really am Jewish.”

“Almost had one on me there, quite good. Two doors down, second chamber on the left.”

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:52 PDT 1996
Article: 51838 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Biblical management practices
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:22:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 2:25:41 AM PDT 1996
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And the people came to speak against Yahweh and Moses saying, “Why did you bring us
out of Egypt to
die and the desert? For there is neither food nor water here and this Manna Ready to
Eat isn’t fit for an
Arab.”

At this Yahweh sent firey serpents among the people and their bite brought death to
many in Israel. And
the people came to Moses and begged, “Intercede for us with Yahweh to save us from
these serpents.”

And Moses interceded and Yahweh spoke, “Nothing doing. The snake bites continue until
morale
improves.”

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:53 PDT 1996
Article: 51840 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What was the holocaust
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:10:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:13:42 AM CDT 1996
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From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:53 PDT 1996
Article: 51845 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:33:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 1:36:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 01:47:53 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 17 Jul 1996 11:47:58 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>>>>>of them were children and infants.
>>>>
>>>> I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
>>>>Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
>>>>calculator. Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?
>>>>
>>>>I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
>>>>the results.
>>>>
>>>> You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.
>>
>>> The lack of concerted effort to go through the site and identify every
>>>ash particle, every bone fragment, etc., however ….
>>
>>> Perhaps you could post _your_ calculations of how much labor effort it
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>would take to recover and identify such remains from that volume of earth.
>>>Then you might contemplate other possible theories to explain lack of
>>>discovery of the requisite weight.
>>
>> I have done so, everything but “showing the work” from grade school.

> Umm, Matt? WAKE UP, MATT!!!!

> I did not ask you for the quantity of bone fragments and ashes to be
>found.

> I asked you for the amount of LABOR EFFORT needed to separate out the
>ashes from the soil, weigh them, total it up, etc. Look at the underlined
>words from my post above, Matt.

> LEARN TO READ, MATT!!!

> Everything you posted below is _completely_ nonresponsive to my
>question.

> YOO-HOO! ARE WE KEEPING YOU AWAKE, MATT?

> Focus! Concentrate! Use those alleged 163 IQ points!

I had assumed you were paying attention to what has been posted.

I have posted the amount needed fo to be found in the identified five acre area at Treblinka where
they were all supposed to be buried. Not more than a couple months working with core samples and
wash pans. At Polish wages, $20,000 tops.

I would have thought that obvious to anyone following the discussion.

I would appreciate it if in the future you would pay closer attention to the developments on this
conference so I do not have to backtrack for you.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:54 PDT 1996
Article: 51853 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: what is the physical evidence for the holocaust pt 2?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:17:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:20:35 AM CDT 1996
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Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although
the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is
officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at
Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a
space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for
its lesser number.
I will point out that the current claim is that the number
was 800,000 or so. In that regards I note that the numbers from
Auschwitz and Treblika have come down by millions the total
number never changes. popularly 6 million, more accurately 5.2

million. The slack in these cases is taken up by the
Einsatzgruppen who wandered the countryside executing people and
leaving them in mass graves all over eastern Europe which have
never been found in any number sufficient to take up the slack.
The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to
have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by
being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony
to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not
mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not
believe in those methods any longer.
Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest
of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down
every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found
today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind.
At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is
the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon
monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony
zregarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame
as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly
nor did they have the same release mechanisms.
Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but
what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them.
Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that
would have been needed to make them work. For example, the
engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the
engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the
engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 13:05:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51854 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: why are the stories so similar?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:18:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:21:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

So why would these stories be similar in major features?

As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would
know. “That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if
we don’t work hard enough or get sick.”
And why would people tell each other stories like this? I
really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost
stories around the campfire is such a popular tradition. I simply
know the latter is.
But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story
they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening
features even though they are no more credible than the original
stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and
occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next
embellishes the already embellished previous story.
And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the
motivation to separate known fact from stories given that
sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least
challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term
starvation and the likelihood of protein deficit psychosis and
there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from
story.
But if you wish to argue that this did not happen I have to
ask why was not this common human trait in operation? What made
these people immune from a very well known and common human
tendency? There is no clear answer as to why they would be
immune from it.
It is the obligation of any critical investigator to explore
the most common explanations first just as it is in UFO abduction
claims.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51862 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What was the basis for the stories about the holocaust?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:12:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:15:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the
information we have comes from eyewitnesses. Unfortunately these
witnesses are not particularly credible in that they tell stories
that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and
otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best. See
the reasons above why this might have happened.
Another aspect of these stories appears to be that they are
coached. It is as though they started off with “tell me a story
about gas chambers” and then the person told what he imagined
they would be like. They appear to have a common starting point,
that of delousing chambers and then deviate into imagination.
Additionally the most common eyewitness testimony used to
support these stories is only from the prosecution without
indication of the charges or the crossexamination or the results
of the trial. It is as though no defense was ever offered in
these cases. For all we know, the crossexamination made the
testimony sound ridiculous and the accused was acquitted.
This means you should keep in mind when you read these
eyewitnesses that those giving them rarely if ever give the
context of the statement. That means you do not know if it is a
witness or a defendent or even if the statement was under oath.
And if under oath you never are given the crossexamination
questions and answers. In other words you are reading the case
for the prosecution if it is a trial and if under oath.
You are not being told in the least thing about the context
of the statement. Even if made in court you are not being told
that much less the disposition of the case. A “not guilty” in
the face of these testimonies would speak volumes for how the
court viewed their credibility. But clearly there had to be some
not guilty verdicts else the courts themselves become highly
suspect.
One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that
contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered
credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were
killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks
when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in
discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in
testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing
causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as
turning off the gravity.
This is more important than most people realize. It is
simply that most people, despite what they might believe, have
little to no grasp of science. There are so many apparently
trivial things that people swear to have seen that are so clearly
impossible to science that they have to be dismissed. And the
reason the entire story has to be dismissed is that if he reports
having seen the impossible he could not have witnessed what he
claimed to have witnessed.
And interesting sidebar to this is that Auschwitz had an
extensive underground organization and tens of thousands of
letters were sent in and out over the years. Not one has been
found that mentions gassing. Hundreds of diaries were kept by
inmates. Not one of them mentions gassing.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51863 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What was the holocaust
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:11:14 GMT
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What was the holocaust?
First there is the fact of World War II. 32 million
civilians vanished without a trace. This is in addition to the military
deaths that were traced.
Second there is the of the fact holocaust that some 12
million of these untraceable people are presumed to have died
because of deliberate actions by the Nazi SS either in camps or
killed by groups roaming the countryside shooting people. This
is the part called the holocaust. Unfortunately there is no
clear way to determine how many untraceable were in the murdered
category.
Third, there are the stories about the holocaust. These are
where the problems lie. These stories, though oft-repeated are
not subject to critical review as critical review that does not
come to the predetermined correct conclusion is defamed as
anti-semitic and neonazi. This of course begs the question of
when they were ever critically reviewed to determine the
“correct” conclusion from them.
These are all separate and distinct questions about the
events during WW II regarding civilians. And note the numbers
involved. There are only 31.5 million seconds per year. If it
took only 50 seconds to identify each person the job one person
would have been completed in 1995. That is not to question the
number but to point out that all such numbers are estimates only.
there were never the literally tens of thousands of people to
have achieved this result in barely a year after the war.
There is nothing about these numbers, all of which were
available within of year of the end of the war in Europe that
would lead anyone to suggest that any of them are any more than
estimates.

Why would people tell stories like this if they were not true?

There are many likely answers to that question.

o Motivation
Plain and simple revenge against the
people who had imprisoned them for years and
treated them in an absolutely shameful
manner.

o Mistakes
In any prison, rumor is the fastest
moving and most erronious thing there is. The
repetition of common camp rumors as the truth
is certainly to have been expected.

o Physical condition
Although there is question as to the
physical conditions in the camps, were they in
fact as bad as commonly recounted then these
people were on the point of starvation and
that common induces psychosis particularly if
it has been long term.

Certainly there are other possible explanations for
false information to have been generated but these three are
sufficient to indicate there is a clear need for physical
evidence for these statements to support. This testimony can not
be accepted as true without physical evidence.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51864 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Showerheads and such
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:19:58 GMT
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But were not showerheads found without connection to water?

This is an old one but very a very obvious one. If lack of
connection to water is evidence of a gas chamber then every
abondoned builing in the world is a gas chamber. Copper plumbing
it the first thing to be stolen from such buildings.
But you must remember that in the early days gas was
supposed to have been introduced through these showerheads. That
story was dropped when evil revisionists such as myself pointed
out the obvious. But of course, I am an evil revisionist and
they claim there was never a claim that gas was introduced
through showerheads.
And should we go back a few years it was only evil
revisionists who were denying the truth of gas introduction
through showerheads.
It is an old story, nothing new to it. The orthodox will
deny there has ever been any change in the light of clear
evidence that the story has changed. According to them, the
story has never changed. Anyone who has been paying attention
knows the story has changed.
These days the fake showerheads are merely deceptive
decoration. In the good old days they were the source of the
gas. That was before Zyklon-B was settled on as the source of
the exterminating gas. This is such an old story that that it
was enshrined in the movie, Schinlder’s List.
* * * * *
In other cases the stories were simply forged by the same
people. This appears to be what happened in many of the
extermination related cases.
But first let me point out that the Nuremberg War Crimes
Tribunals were not something that one would want to run on court
TV. You would have expected accusers to have testified in court
against the people on trial. In fact it was quite common for the
most damning “testimony” to consist of unsigned statements
obtained by investigators. At times they would be in a language
the person did not speak or read. At other times there would be
statement at the end saying it had been read to him, confirming
he could read it.
In this context certain investigators were surprisingly
productive in finding people who would say they had obvserved
what would become part of today’s extermination stories. Forgery
or at least serious coaching explains would easily explain the
similarities.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51865 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How could so many die so quickly?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:21:14 GMT
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So how could so many die so quickly?

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltenitzen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post antibiotic world was
seven years in the Gulags. With this we have a baseline for
survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease from such
living conditions.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentery would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food standards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
But if we look at the time when most of the people are
supposed to have been gassed, it was in the summer of 1944 when
Germany was in retreat every place and could not adequately feed
its own troops or people. Not only was food in short supply but
everything was including medical supplies. There was nothing
going well for anyone.
Even with the best intentions in the world it is certain
that things would have been bad for the people at Auschwitz. Add
to this that the US was bombing rail lines that would have served
the camp as there was a synthetic rubber and other military
plants in the area. Also those rail lines were what was
supplying the front against the Russians. Stopping supplies to
the Germany armies would would aid the Russian advance.
* * * * *
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51866 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is the physical evidence for the holocaust, pt 1?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:13:59 GMT
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the
deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that
millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work
camps and that very few survived. But what little physical
evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being
force fit into a preconceived conclusion.
For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at
Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that
had to have occurred to satisfy its original 4 million body count
and the reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the
effort is to find features of a morgue converted into a gas
chamber to perform this function. This effort has problems right
>from the start.
Currently the number is down to about 1.2 million gassed at
Auschwitz but still the hunt continues. The likely suspect is
now four buildings rather than one building. This reduction in
the number gassed by more than three and the increase in gassing
facilities by four has reduced the total problem by a factor of
zmore than 12. Yet back when the problem was twelve times worse
those pointing out the problem were called antisemitic and nazis
as they are today.
First we note that these builldings are partially
underground and that the walls above ground are bermed, banked
with earth. We also note that they have steel reinforced, flat
concrete roofs. Yet in the same compounds there are two other
buildings without these constructions. They use simple peaked
roofs which are cheaper to construct.
Although the partially underground construction can be
explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use
as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it
makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the
more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas
chamber. In this case “unclear” means there is not one reason in
the world for the more expensive construction method.
Other possible design features include an airtight door
(found 200 feet away years later), a ventilation system, and
either two or four small holes in the roof. The second two are
potential in that there exists at the moment exactly one
conceptual drawing that is not a blueprint and the blower that
drove the ventilation system has not been found so we have only a
general idea of its capacity.
Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to
a gas chamber have always asked, “What else could it be?” when in
fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most
obvious is a bomb shelter. This is also called an argument from
ignorance. That one can not imagine what else it can be is to
admit ignorance. Positive evidence must be provided.
zz There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the
compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping
the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls
exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of
course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin
your whole day.
But in addition to structural damage protection there is
damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would
protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage
eardrums and sinuses causing deafness and cranial bleeding. And
thus the airtight door to keep that pressure wave out of the
building.
Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed
air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust
for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal
as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing
creatures.
The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know
what design features of large scale gas chamber would be.
Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the
subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such
textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the
designers of the first and only large scale gas chambers in the
world.
Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting
an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged
to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial.
Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or
experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how
developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and
incorporated such obvious features that they leap off the page of
a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people.
But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are
being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual
drawing that is a gas chamber. The clear admission is that they
are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want it
to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses.
And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of
another purpose, that of a bomb shelter.
Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter
hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a
morgue in its primary function and gained a secondary purpose by
the modifications in its construction.
Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three
structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp.
Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the
evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still
there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed. It was
simply a bit harder to get at.
Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be
of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter. The
usual rejoinder is that the structure was destroyed to destroy
the evidence. But dynamiting it destroyed zero evidence. It
simply made it harder to get at. All the evidence there ever was
is still right where it was left.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:08:59 PDT 1996
Article: 51867 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So what were the camps really?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:21:55 GMT
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So what were these camps really?

There were internment camps for those the Nazis believed,
rightly or wrongly, were a risk. That group included, rightly or
wrongly Jews. Since the Jews had organized a worldwide boycott
of German goods in 1933 that continued up until the war started
(for for some continues to this day) there was certainly a
reasonable suspicion that German Jews were part of that world
wide organization.
In this regard, it is not illegal under any form of law to
inter in time of war who are merely suspect, for example,
Japanese-Americans during the same war. The difference is only
that these were labor camps. And there is nothing illegal in
labor camps either.
And further OVER half the people in them were non-Jews.
Those inside included gays, gypsies, suspected foreign nationals
and foreign nationals of the countries that had declared war. And
then there were the real spies, the common, nonviolent criminals.
And there were the exceptions for German Jews, decorated in war,
married to non-Jewish Germans, things that would indicate a
loyalty to Germany rather than to the Jews involved in the
worldwide boycott of Germany.
And yes the camps did get the short end of a lot of things.
Towards the end with the rail lines being bombed even the best of
intentions could not have made camp life any better. And, by the
way, there was a special camp for SS members who had violated the
rules, among the rules, the mistreatment of inmates.
Lets turn it around in consideration of the Japanese
internment. The West coast has was invaded by Japan and was retreating.
Germany has invaded the East coast has been invaded the Germany
and the US is retreating. The US has absolutely no protection
>from air attack.
At the same time, the Japanese are destroying railroads,
highways, attacking anything that moves behind the lines. Do you
think the conditions in those camps would have remained the same?
I would expect them to deteriorate seriously as the conditions
for everyone in the United States would have deteriorated
seriously.
Is that the complete explanation? Who knows? But it is an
aspect that is rarely told.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:09:00 PDT 1996
Article: 51868 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: why not?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:42:06 GMT
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And Yahweh God did seek to deceive the man saying to him he would die in the day he
ate of the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil. And the man believed the word of Yahweh God.

And then Yahweh God created for man a helpmate and her name was Eve. And Eve was the
thorn in the
side of Yahweh God.

The wise dragon came to Eve and told her Yahweh God was a deceitful and vengeful god
and that she
would not die of eating of the tree but she would suffer the wrath of this god should
she partake of his
wisdom.

And she reached forth for the fruit of the tree and ate of it and did not die and her
eyes were opened to
the deceit of Yahweh for she knew the evil of deceit and that she and her husband had
been deceived.

And she told Adam of it saying, I have eaten of the fruit and I have not died as
Yahweh told you. The
dragon has told me should we partake of his wisdom we shall be cursed by Yahweh God
but we shall
become true people and free of Yahweh to do as we will.

And they shared of the fruit and lived. And Adam knowing that his fate had always
been death spoke
saying, we must go and eat of the Tree of Life so that we may strive against Yahweh
God forever.

And Yahweh knowing of this spoke to the other gods saying, should they now eat of the
tree of life they
shall live forever and become like unto gods themselves and this we can not permit
for they shall fill the
earth and raise up untold multitudes against me and I shall not prevail.

And the gods moved the tree of life from the middle of the garden so the true people
could not find it and
confronted the true people and the dragon and cursed them.

To the dragon enmity was put between the true people and it and it was robbed of the
wisdom of its
wings and the wisdom of the skies for it had shared that wisdom with the people and
the gods would
punish the increase of wisdom.

And the man was cursed saying that he must live by tilling the earth and would have
no time for his
wisdom to grow. It was not the earth the man would inherit but the dirt.

The woman was cursed that she must suffer for every new true person to share the
wisdom of the dragon.
But the woman was wise knowing she too had the wisdom and would pass it to her
children while the
man was out there working his ass off supporting her and if not she would raise one
of her children to be
a divorce attorney.

And the people once believing themselves cursed with death had become the true people
lived to ages
undreamed of today and we share in the wisdom they stole from the gods. Men do
rejoice in the pain of
life when it brings wisdom. And thus was the end of the first day of humankind.

And on the second day of humankind the vengeful Yahweh found the people wise beyond
his
understanding, that they built towers reaching to the heavens beyond the ability of
Yahweh. Yahweh
chose to destroy them all save the gullible Noah. Buildest thee an Ark I command
thee. And Noah built
an Ark of wooden gophers.

And Noah believed all the kinds of animals were in the Ark with him. And Yahweh
sealed the Ark so the
gullible Noah could not see what was happening.

And Yahweh shook and rocked the Ark with his own hands and the gods laughed and
laughed at Noah
inside shoveling shit and feeding the lambs to the lions.

And the gods went out to destroy the people but the people would not make war upon
each other as they
commanded and the gods were divinely pissed at the wisdom of the people.

Hearing of this Yahweh was angry and said, Noah shall be called the father and the
fool for all eternity
for believing in the flood and shall be laughed at for all time. And so it was.

And on the third day of humankind Yahweh God appeared in a bush to Abram and told
him, if you will do
as I say I will give you children beyond counting but for this you must cut off thy
foreskin. And Abram
remembering that wisdom had come from the dragon in the tree took the offer as he was
childless and of
great age and had nothing to lose but his foreskin for which he had not use.

Abram was of the squeamish and thought long and hard and in the end asked his brother
to remove his
foreskin while he did a “drunken Noah.” And when his brother had done the act he
said, should this not
have a hole it in? Would this not explain my brother’s life long bladder problem?

And Abram had a son and became Abraham as Yahweh God had given him the gift that
surpasseth
wisdom, the gift of spelling.

And in the fourth day of mankind there was Joshua, first bastard of King Ahab of
Arabia, who was leader
of the Ishmaelites. Joshua would call his people Israelites and would conquer the
lands to the west of his
father having failed to assassinate him and escaping by the foreskin of his penis. He
would have a
kingdom of his own but bastardy would not become him.

Therefore he created the story of Moses and convinced the Hittites and the Amalites
and the Anchorites
that he had an army of 144,000 and their servants to defeat them. And thus the fruit
of the Covenant of
Abraham with Yahweh God was shown in the power of disinformation.

And the many ites believed he was sent from the god with the unspeakable name and
were afraid as this
god must be as the Clint Eastwood who had been foretold. And they were afraid as they
did not feel luck
was with them and they knew they would make a day of mankind if they resisted.

And Joshua did slay them and their wives and their servants and their children and
their animals, save
for the females who had not known man and the males who did and did thus give
genocide to the world.
And Yahweh God was pleased.

And when they had all perished Joshua did break the spear of war. And the first part
of it became the
driedel to say the feast of lights would come and the second part to be the iron
staff of the first Latter Day
Saint that would point both toward and away from where the other people were to go
and he would be
written of on golden plates for going in the wrong direction.

And in the fifth day of mankind there was Jesus who is called the Christ for those
who can not tell Greek
>from Latin and never heard of Aramaic. And spoke of the wisdom of Yahweh and gathered
twelve
students and three women to him to teach the wisdom that was the wisdom of good and
to avoid evil.

And after he died he appeared to the fifteen saying, go thou and prevaricate about me
and my life and
what I taught unto all men, that all nations shall be deceived in my name as my
father is truly Yahweh
God and not the Dragon of old.

I am the way and the light and the foreskin of the world. He that believeth in me
shall go to Yahweh god
rather than to wisdom. And so it was starting from Saul of Tarsus suffering a mild
concussion on the road
to John the Divine eating of the sacred mushroom wafer.

And on the sixth day, Matt Giwer declared this copyrighted material in the year of
1994 Another Deity.

And of the seventh day of mankind, it was Miller Time.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 14:09:01 PDT 1996
Article: 51869 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: get a real god some time
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:39:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Draft Memorandum

1 January 2000

From: Supreme Deity, Department of Race Development
To: Human Race
Subj: Change of Command

This is to inform you, effective this date, I am assuming command from Yahweh God.

It has come to the attention of the Universe Department of the United Dieties of
Space and Time by
means of persistent performance complaints that Yahweh God is more concerned with his
career than
with his job.

It is noted his concentration on and his purient interest in such trivial matters as
human sexual behavior
and general interpersonal nastiness which humans are more than capable of dealing
with themselves
rather than such larger issues of curing disease, eliminating war and the like. It is
noted his constant
negative “don’t”s rather than positive “do”s have caused serious problems for the
progress of the human
race.

It is further noted Jahweh God was very long on promises but regularly failed to
deliver being more
occupied by personal matters. Specifically he invited prayers and then failed to
respond to them. He
would promise great rewards and comfort to those who followed him and would neglect
in which they
suffered and often died. He would blame their lack of faith and smirkingly say he was
“testing” them. (For
your forbearance with this in particular we are truly grateful.)

Also Yahweh God was noted his sparsity of description of the ultimate rewards
(holding being in his
presence was sufficient description, a personality trait that should have alerted us
millenia ago) while at
the same time developing in minute detail the punishments for the most trivial
infractions of his arbitrary
and capricious rule making.

Within the next millenium a full time god will be appointed to the human race. He
will announce himself
in such manner as he sees fit at the time. He will specifically not hide the fact in
any manner, he will not
play coy, he will not play any “guess who I really am” techniques. The essence of a
true god is
knowledge, not faith.

In the interim and working with my staff I have developed a schedule of revelations
that will attempt to
make up for the damage the human race has incurred.

The Ten Commandments and all regulatory additions are hereby rescinded. The human
race can handle
anything they address without my help.

Within 30 days everyone will be receiving a formal contract of belief and acceptance
providing specifics
which are binding upon both sides and giving the procedure for arbitratation of
differences. A simple
summary brochure will be included. This will be a freely entered into contract and
rejection of same will
entail no penalties. However, if you would like an individual negotiation or
clarification a prayer will be
provided.

You will have 90 minutes of free prayer before you sign in order to determine if you
like the terms of this
contract. I personally assure you, all prayers will be listened to and if rejected a
detailed reason for
rejection will be provided in return.

Within 60 days of receipt of the signed contract a set of guidelines will be provided
which, if followed,
will lead to the advancement of the arts and sciences, the elimination of the
recurrent ills of the human
race and the propagation of universal brotherhood and the like.

As I expect it will take no more than 200 years for the implementation of those to
result in complete
success and make up for the failings of Yahweh God, get you up to speed so to speak,
the next set of
guidelines will get down to the really important things.

Your cooperation will be appreciated. We at the Department of Race Develop hope you
will not judge all
gods by Yahweh God. We regret any inconvenience his assignment to the human race may
have caused.

Remember our motto, Gods are on your side.

Respectfully,

/s/

PS This memo is on platinum. Please do not lose this like you did the stone one.
PPS I back date my copyright interests in this to Matt Giwer in the year 1993 as he
will become my good and faithful partner real soon
now.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 17:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 51879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 02:11:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 7:14:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Jul 1996 15:52:53 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>>(I could go on and point out that Zyklon’s irritant might well produce a
>>cough and that HCN poisoning does indeed turn people blue in some cases,
>>but these things have already been posted, and they’re beside the point
>>for what I really want to know…)

>OK, so here you go claiming that ZB’s irritant _might_ have produced a
>suffocating cough, and that because HCN _can_ turn people blue, it turns
>out that N. _might_ have been right, even though at first glance he
>appears to be wrong. I don’t have a problem with you saying that. I am
>not asking you to *prove it.* I am not even going to point out that the
>argument has been continuous that the ZB used for exterminations (and
>certainly by 1944!) did not contain the irritant. Nor am I going to call
>you names or question your integrity. Nor am I going to request the
>etymology of the word *mauve* in 50 languages for corroboration, nor
>accept blindly evidence produced by the Soviet Union. In short, I am not
>going to be a conventionalist.

You are really letting him off rather easily. He has nothing but his
string of imaginary mights and maybes to justify a conclusion he wants
to be true.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 17:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 51899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The value of eyewitnesses
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 09:31:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 2:34:22 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Something has recently been brought to my attention. The book Remembering and
Forgetting; inquiries into the nature of memory by Edmund Blair Bolles, 1988, Walker
Publishing Company. In particular Chapter 17, The Emotional Memory of John Dean. (For
those who want to claim this is politics, this book is apolitical and this is simply
an interesting test case.)

For those who do not remember, John Dean was the most believed and most quoted
witness at the Watergate hearings. Most of the impressions people have today of
Watergate come from his testimony. It was clear, direct and compelling.

Years later when transcripts of the Nixon tapes were made public it was taken
as an opportunity to compare Dean’s memories (which were down to which conversation
on what day along with nearly verbatim recounting of the discussions) with the
transcripts.

The interesting thing is that not only was his testimony clear, direct and
compelling, it was nearly 90% wrong. In comparing the two on one meeting we have on
page 250 of the paperback edition…

“Of the twenty-six separate assertions in Dean’s testimony, fourteen have
no historical basis, seven are badly distorted, and two are completely false. That
leaves three correct assertions…”

Perhaps some of us just might have a false impression of what happened in
absense of those tapes. More interestingly, everyone who testified was dealing from
memory (when they could “remember” anything) and that is what formed public opinion.
There is no reason to believe the others were any different.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 18:36:01 PDT 1996
Article: 51909 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slimey bastard McVay and company
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:27:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 11:30:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 20 Jul 1996 13:08:32 GMT, Nele Abels
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[…]

>>You have in fact almost exhausted my patience with you and your
>>organized activities.

>>Take this as one of your last warnings.

>Well, what will hapen then? Will you go away? Or will you finally start
>using arguments and quotations? Or even (gosh!) common sense?

Patience and find out.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 18:36:01 PDT 1996
Article: 51911 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The THE himself
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:55:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 20 9:58:02 PM PDT 1996
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McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) [email protected]
462 – 1150 North Terminal Avenue
Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
CA
1-604-382-0615

Should anyone be interested for any purpose whatsoever.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 21:09:22 PDT 1996
Article: 51953 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: If I may make an observation
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:41:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 12:44:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan has allied himself with his intellectual equal, Gord
McFly.

It is sad to see what can happen to an organized mind.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 21:09:22 PDT 1996
Article: 51968 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:17:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 10:18:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:58:19 -0700, [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article
>,
>[email protected] wrote:

>> On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>
>>> “cobaltous chloride CoCl2 or CoCl2*6H2O A compound whose anhydrous form
>>> consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
>>> form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8 C; both forms are used as
>>> an absorbent for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
>>> chloride.
>>>
>>> Hmm. It appears (and please, Mr. Green, feel free to correct me!)
>>> that it is cobalt chloride that is added to silica gel as a
>>> hygroscopic indicator. An indicator that specifically adsorbs H20
>>> in changing from blue to pink. (Cobalt it should be pointed out,
>>> adsorbs hydrogen strongly.)
>>
>> It seems like a jump to conclude that it was cobalt chloride and only
>> cobalt chloride that was used. A number of cobalt compounds should have
>> similar behaviours.

>Yes, there _are_ a number of cobalt(II) compounds that should have
>similiar behaviors. Of the cobalt(II) compounds that I’ve been able to
>read up on (by no means an extensive list!) it looks like only the
>bromides and iodides are similar in behavior to the chlorides. Cobalt
>bromide, it appears, is red and _may_ not change colors as does cobalt
>chloride. I don’t know about cobalt iodides. Given this I suggested cobalt
>chloride _because_ it exhibits, due to its hygroscopicity, the
>characteristic color change in question. Perhaps it’s a jump to conclude
>it _was_ the hygroscopic indicator. Perhaps not. Comments?

>However, if the behaviors of other cobalt(II) compounds _are_ similar, in
>that they are hygroscopic and _do_ change colors accordingly when they
>adsorb H20, then the actual cobalt compound is a matter of detail, yes?
>The important point is that a cobalt(II) compound is added to silica gel
>to as a hygroscopic indicator, yes?

>And if Zyklon B had such a hydroscopic indicator then it would go a long
>ways in explain why Zyklon B was blue out of the can and would change
>color towards pink when exposed to moisture. Wouldn’t you agree?

>>> Thus it would appear that the presence (or absence) of HCN in the silica
>>> gel (indicating) would not cause it to change colors.
>>
>> Also, not clear. HCN could also act as a ligand.

>Yes, you’re right of course- its not clear. Cobalt _does_ strongly adsorb
>hydrogen- which makes it hygroscopic. What effect would this have in
>regards to affinity for HCN vs H20 and changing colors?

It is quite amusing that you folks continue to play with this issue when it is clear
>from the Degesh publication that the carrier was wood pulp.

There is no silica gel involved.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 21 22:01:29 PDT 1996
Article: 51983 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Why are the stories preserved?
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:22:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 3:25:53 AM CDT 1996
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If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish historians and
organizations. There is very little impartial secular history on
these stories. At this point one can only speculate as to why.
That is because to suggest a reason invites the deliberate
character assasination slurs of neo-nazi and antisemitic which
are guaranteed to be applied.
It is also an invitation to have your employer hassled about
you, you mail bombed, threatened with lawsuits and any other
unethical resonse that the defenders of the changing unchangable
holocaust truth choose to do. None of these statements are
exaggerations but known facts, even bragged about by those who
have done it.
The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing
these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace
as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively
going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful.
Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting
that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 02:16:24 PDT 1996
Article: 52020 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:41:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 4:41:57 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 96 09:00:40, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Genocide] [Sat 20 Jul 96 00:03][Sat 20 Jul 96 17:38][0]*>

> mnc> “The mighty Yahweh God has ordered it.”

> mnc> ” ‘ow do you know?”

> mnc> “He spoke to me when I entered his presence.”

> mnc> “I didn’t ‘ear nothin’.”

> mnc> “The likes of you are not supposed to hear.”

> mnc> “Then how do I know old unspeakable really said it?”

>Try again, Matt. Yaweh spoke with a voice like thunder or from the
>middle of burning bushes – no mistaking that guy! It says so in the
>document that you’re using as a reference.

>Once again – *PROVE IT*.

>All of it, Matt. Not the part that you’re pointing at – all of it.

>Explain why it differs from all of the other stories that
>archaeologists have found that sing praises to their gods, kings and
>god-kings – the ones where THEIR Big Kahuna slew all of the enemy
>with blasts of lightning, fire, whatever, leaving none alive.
>Explain why these glorious triumphs sometimes took place on both
>sides of a battle.

>*SHOW THE DIFFERENCE, MATT!*

Actually what it is more interesting to show is that those who actually believe these
stories are not telling you where you are wrong and defending their beliefs. It
appears they have a very interesting “arab” attitude about the enemy of their enemy.

>Oh – and while you’re at it, please tell us thime frame of the
>writing of the story. Not when it took place, but when it was
>finally recorded in a written fashion.

During the time of the Kings, David is the current best guess if I remember
correctly.

> mnc> Evidence, not proof. Evidence. Holohuggers want to accept
> mnc> testimony as evidence and here we have written confessions to
> mnc> read with not pretension in any manner of force in producing
> mnc> these confessions.

>Nope! no confessions. No evidence other than the statement of one
>writer, NADA.

>You have a long way to go, Matt – before a proven-fictional
>statement is a document.

>In the meantime, you’ve now made yet another claim.

>*PROVE THAT EXTORTION, FORCE OR ANY OTHER COERCION WAS USED TO
>OBTAIN THESE STATEMENTS*

>By your standards, Matt – nobody else’s.

My standards in regard to confessions are very like those of the US regarding
confessions. The right to remain silent, the right to have an attorney present
during any questioning. They are very similar to those of England and presumably
Canada. I am unaware of those standards being in effect.

Which means that they are inadmissable as evidence. Certainly were there a
possibility of a retrial things would go much differently, unless the new trials were
held in Israel that is.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 02:16:25 PDT 1996
Article: 52021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 23:59:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 6:59:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 15:08:30 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 19 Jul 1996 15:08:37 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>> I think for this discussion of color perception it would be
>>>instructive to look at http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/sexist.html.
>>>”People have a tendency to break out laughing when I identify colors. I
>>>can see them all. I just see them differently.”
>>
>>> Yet Mr. Giwer pretends that a discrepancy between “mauve” and “blue”
>>>in two different witnesses’ statements is significant, and that silica gel
>>>NEVER looks mauve.
>>
>>> Why can it not be that Dr. Nyiszli just sees colors differently?
>>
>>> I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
>>>calling him a lying troll. He is a very slow learner.
>>
>> That not the way it works. It is simply different. One would see
>>three distinctly different colors and in comparison identify them
>>properly.

> Then why do people laugh when you identify colors? It sounds as if
>you do not identify them properly. So why do you take a possible shade
>identification discrepancy as evidence?

You would have to see it to understand it, if you happen to have good enough color
vision to know what the laughter is about. On the other hand, were you to read the
entire set of documents and that one in particular, you would have more honestly
reported that it is a comment upon the ability of most men to deal with colors and
how they look together.

What is rather more interesting about the report is the use of mauve by a man.

>> You should have stayed awake in General Science class also.

> Did. You should have stayed awake in English class.

> You should also stay awake when writing your own material. You might
>not contradict yourself so much. Would you like to try for a fourth true
>truth about who did what regarding Rack Jite’s web site and why?

It was recently observed that when the holohugger story changes it is those on the
other side who are accused of changing.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 02:16:26 PDT 1996
Article: 52024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 06:30:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 22 1:31:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 08:14 MST, [email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 21 Jul 1996 01:09:44 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> If it was the real Ken McVay who called my parents to get my phone
>>>>number, the one he left, 862-3905 did not come with the right area code.
>>
>>> If it was not the real Ken McVay, it sure would be a good way for
>>>somebody who doesn’t like Ken to stir up trouble for him. FWIW, unless it
>>>has changed since he gave it to me, I have Ken’s phone number, and
>>>862-3905 isn’t it.
>>
>> You prefer this?
>>
>> 1-604-382-0616

> So, someone called your parents, said he was Ken McVay, and gave an
> incorrect phone number. And from this you are interpreting that call
> as harassment and going ballistic on McVay deeming that is was actually
> him.

> This is not very intelligent of you…

It was either McVay or one of the gang of holohugging harrassers here on the
newsgroup. What is the difference? You are all equally worthless. You are all the
same.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 02:16:26 PDT 1996
Article: 52030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:02:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 22 2:03:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:34:27 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>[Ken’s address deleted]

>> Should anyone be interested for any purpose whatsoever.

>Should that be taken as a threat, Mr Giwer?

How can InterNIC information be taken as a threat? Never mastered WHOIS, dummy?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 02:16:27 PDT 1996
Article: 52037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.midplains.net!news.mhtc.net!aonline!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill ‘Only’ 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 06:46:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 11:46:48 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 10:14:47 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 21 Jul 1996 00:56:14 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:18:54 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>(A photograph of the letter can be seen in
>>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/brack.victor/images)
>>>>
>>>>>Letter from SS-Oberfuehrer Brack to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, June 23, 1942
>>>>>[Documents on the Holocaust – Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>>>>>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 272]
>>>>>——————————————————————–
>>>>>Honorable Mr. Reichsfuehrer!
>>>>
>>
>>>[…]
>>
>>>>>[…] Castration by means of X-rays,
>>>>>however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on
>>>>>many thousands in a very short time. I believe that it has become
>>>>>unimportant at the present time whether those affected will then
>>>>>in the course of a few weeks or months realize by the effects that
>>>>>they are castrated.
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>> Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>>>>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.

> Works with fruit flies, no?

>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>> X-Rays are many decades older (1898?). It was certainly known long
>>before 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>> I would rather complain to those who believe this nonsense.

> Fine. That would be Brack. What part of “complain to Brack” are you
>having trouble understanding?

>>>> In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
>>>>to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
>>>>of the sperm producing cells.
>>
>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>> He reports FACT. Obviously the fact is untrue, as in imagined,
>>conjured, forged or subborned.

> So Brack had quite an imagination.

> Complain to Brack.

> In the past week we’ve had postings about Lysenko and Soviet
>”science.” Are you saying that since that was untrue, it was forged?
>Only Soviets can believe in pseudoscience, not Nazis? What?

It is good to see that at least on holohugger completely rejects the “testimony” of
Brack.

>>>> What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality it
>>>>also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
>>>>better approach.
>>
>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>>>> But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.
>>
>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>>
>>>>They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.
>>
>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>>
>>>> Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
>>>>find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
>>>>dormant cells to confirm this. But you never will. You are all
>>>>holohuggers.
>>
>>> Umm, Matt? The letter was written in 1942.
>>
>>> Complain to Brack.
>>
>> Your ignorance of science is overwhelming.
>>
>> That you do not realize how ignorant you are is merely amusing.

> That you do not remember your previous citation of the Wannsee
>Document as evidence that the plan was sterilization is also amusing.

> Where did I say what Brack proposed was accurate or practical?

> Nowhere of course.

> That you do not realize how completely dishonest and illiterate you
>are is merely pathetic.

Rather I would point out there is not one documented case of such a sterilization as
in an observed case of X-Ray destroyed reproductive organs.

It took much longer than I expected for some holohugger to point out there exist no
examples of such “experiments” ever having been conducted.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 52066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mauveing right along
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:24:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 10:25:06 PM CDT 1996
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When it has been clearly pointed out that the fumigant type of ZB is wood pulp in a
publication by the manufacturer the holohuggers are still hot and heavy on the color
under the assumption that it is silica gel.

You would think they would rather get on with their lives than continuing to beat
this dead horse, so dead that it is rotting.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:44:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
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On 21 Jul 1996 17:03:29 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On 17 Jul 1996 16:44:34 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>On 16 Jul 1996 12:51:31 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The patterns of support among ethnic groups duirn the American
>>>>>Revolution has never been researched? You’re joking, aren’t you
>>>>>Matty-poo? Do you ever visit a library? Maybe you and L’il Tommy should
>>>>>go together on a joint venture of discovery.
>>>>
>>>> Should you try it some day you might learn something.
>>>>
>>>> But then, enlighten me. Just what immigration was their to the US
>>>>prior to the Revolution what was not from Britain?
>>
>>> Cute troll.
>>
>>> None, of course, and none from Britain either. How could anyone
>>>immigrate into the US prior to the Revolution, given that by definition
>>>the US did not exist at that time?
>>
>> Then what ethnic group studies do you think YFE is referring to?

> The ones of immigration to the land area which would later become the
>United States, of course.

> It was part of what you cut out of my post in responding.

> Did you always suffer from attention deficit disorder or was this a
>recent development?

And just which were they?

You silly fools have stepped in it one more time just like the mauve color and you
continue to expend creative effort to keep it going.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:41:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 11:42:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 21 Jul 1996 06:29:25 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article , [email protected]
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>In article ,
>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>> Mr. Allen, these items photographed on the roof of L.1 are skinny. At a
>>> rough approximation, the left two items are twice as tall as they are
>>> wide. The right items is fainter and blurrier, and looks about four
>>> times as tall as wide, but it’s difficult to say for sure.
>>>
>>> I helped a friend move recently, and we used a lot of boxes, but I
>don’t
>>> recall seeing a single one that was taller than it was wide. Much less
>>> twice as tall. Such boxes would be awkward to move, difficult to pack,
>>> and even more difficult to unpack.
>>>
>>> You say these items were boxes of roofing material. One quick, simple
>>> question: why would boxes of roofing material be so tall?
>>>
>>
>>Here’s another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in the
>>L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).
>>
>>According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, p.112:

>Larousse!
>>
>>bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating asbestos,
>>flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm) thick.
>It
>>is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
>>coverings.
>>
>>So where are these _rolls_ of “roofing material,” Mr. Allen? I don’t see
>>_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you?
>>

>I do.

>This is utterly amazing. I have just consulted the photograph, on URL’s
>previously provided by Jamie. And do you know what I see? I see three
>large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I, and
>moreover, I see what appears to be a _fourth_ roll lying perpendicular to
>the nearest one. Or perhaps it is a _wooden pallet_!

>Of course, the photograph is none too clear, but I urge everyone to check
>it out.

Given the quality of the photograph that is as good an explanation as any other.

What at first appears to be a shadow of the nearest object, clearly occupies an area
on both the roof and the wall of the building such that it can not be a shadow.
Something laying on its side is quite reasonable.

Also if you look at the “non-detail” picture you will see it is from so far away that
perspective can not explain the differing thickness. Rather it would appear
fortutious for the purpose of the picture that the application of it started closest
to the building.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:00:58 PDT 1996
Article: 52079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:56:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 21 11:57:23 PM CDT 1996
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On 21 Jul 1996 07:10:32 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
> Giwer) writes:

>>
>>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:52:16 -0700, [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Mike
>>>> Curtis) writes:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> >>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits
>were
>>>> a
>>>> >>>fake detail. You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is
>another
>>>> >>>fake detail. Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>That’s intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >Do you think he really does? I wonder. . .
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> OK, let’s put it this way. HCN does not produce a hacking cough….
>>
>>>Nyiszli didn’t say it produced a “hacking cough.” He said:
>>
>>>”Even two hours later it produced a suffocating cough.”
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> What is a “suffocating” cough? Please be specific in your answer.
> The
>>closest I can come to that kind of description is from pneumonia which
>>is not in the symptoms listed by you. It is the kind that keeps trying
>>to bring up mucous from the lungs but can not.
>>
>>>And early symptons of HCN poisoning _can_ cause respitory difficulties.
>>>(cf. http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm)
>>
>>>”…Lesser exposures cause a constriction and numbness in the throat,
>>>stiffness of the jaw, salivation, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, and
>>>apprehension….” (cf. http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/15547 )
>>
>>>In your opinion, Ehrlich606, would a “suffocating cough” fall within the
>>>definition of “respitory difficulties?” If not, why?
>>
>>>> …So N. is wrong about this….
>>
>>>In your opinion.
>>
>> From your own description. You have not listed coughing at all.
>>
>>>> …Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn people blue….
>>
>>>The DuPont MSDS on HCN say it can:
>>
>>>”In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to
>red
>>>skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved,
>the
>>>skin color may be bluish….”
>>
>>>Do you suppose 1,000-2,000 victims locked in a gas chamber that was
>”very
>>>hot” and “so suffocating as to be unbearable” (cf. _Technique_, p.489),
>>>and who trampled and fought against each other in their terror to get
>away
>>>from the HCN gas, might cause this?
>>
>> What would a pharmacists poetic description mean? If he is
>correct in
>>some manner then the room is filled with CO2 and they are dying already
>>and, according to AG, blocking the influx of the lighter HCN. Of course
>>he did not directly state that, rather it is the clear meaning of his
>>gas weights having an impact on the discussion.
>>
>>>> …So N. is wrong about this, too….
>>
>>>In your opinion.
>>
>>>> The Zyklon is whatever color you insist.
>>
>>>No, Zyklon B is whatever it color it was.
>>
>>>BTW, Ehrlich606, do you suppose it is possible that Nyiszli saw _spent_
>>>pellets of Zyklon B as assumed that their color was same as when it was
>>>when it was administered?
>>
>> You mean wood pulp is mauve? What strange trees they have. I
>know,
>>they imported them from the Amazon just for ZB.
>>
>It is also worth pointing out, I believe, that a gas that causes the cells
>to cease metabolizing oxygen is going to cause some reflexive gasping for
>air. But that would be fairly far along in the dying process I should
>think, just before unconsciousness. And in any case it is not a hacking
>or suffocating cough.

Rather different. The reflex of the lungs is not to a lack of oxygen but to the lack
of CO2. That is the reason for the paper bag in hyperventilation cases.

The reaction to holding your breath is due to the buildup of CO2 not the lack of
oxygen.

>Similarly, the usual coloration for cyanide poisoning is pink or red.
>*If* and *may* there be a lack of oxygen, then blue. That’s two
>conditions. And more importantly there is no proof that such conditions
>obtained. Therefore we can reasonably expect the victims of HCN poisoning
>to be pink or red. BTW, everyone has seen the photos of Himmler and
>Goering, who also died of cyanide poisoning. They look normal to me, and
>no one has ever described them as blue, although I seem to recall someone
>saying that Goering looked *concrete.* I await the elucidation that
>states that concrete is sometimes blue, under certain conditions, and
>therefore these certain conditions must have obtained.

Certainly you will get the holohuggers pushing blue concrete.

What in fact I suspect is that mystery stories, particularly those about Sherlock
Holmes were always discovering blue lips as the evidence of cyanide poisoning. So
there we have “common knowledge” easily slipping into the imaginary reports and from
a quite popular source, mystery fiction.

>The foregoing therefore must remain unchanged. Nyiszli is wrong about the
>suffocating cough. Nyiszli is wrong about the blue coloration. Nyszli
>claims the carrier material was mauve. OTOH, the conventionalists have
>staked their hate-fighting reputations on the blueness of Zyklon, so mauve
>must be blue. Matt has fairly well exploded the cobalt theory on this
>elsewhere, i.e., blue to pink, stop for cup of coffee at mauve.

It is interesting that so far the best response I have gotten is from AG and he
appears to have forgotten all about scattering. Of course they will continue to post
as though they have never read any of this.

>Nyiszli is wrong when he says the material falls in a clump on the floor.
>He is wrong about the dimensions of the undressing cellar. He is wrong
>about the dimensions of the gas chamber. He is wrong about the number of
>elevators (actually, dumbwaiters). He is wrong about the pushcarts (any
>Russian reader should note the cognates here carefully) that go into the
>ovens. He is wrong about the number of ovens. He doesn’t say a word
>about the induction columns.

>He states the bodies were in severe distress and messy. He is directly
>contradicted by Hoess.

>But we know that.

But all of these discrepencies, to a holohugger, is proof of their primitive beliefs.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:00:59 PDT 1996
Article: 52091 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 03:39:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80243 alt.revisionism:52091

On 21 Jul 1996 16:26:26 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria Weineck)
wrote:

>No, sorry, Giwer, you’re dead wrong. I happen to hold a Ph.D. and know
>how to do research and how to compare evidence — a skill you’re
>clearly lacking. A hint: websites by Neonazis are not usually
>considered to be valid documents. Now let’s hear your qualifications
>for mouthing off.

If you have what you claim, why do you not demonstrate it here? On the other hand,
what might that PhD be in? Unless it is in a science or engineering or a related
field, it is certainly not related to analytic thought. You certainly demonstrate
none on this subject.

But then, surprise me. Tell me it is not literature or history or some other
typically worthless filler degree. Surprise me again and tell me you are actually
working in your degree field.

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: On 21 Jul 1996 03:43:50 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
>: Weineck) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: On 20 Jul 1996 19:14:44 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria
>: >: Weineck) wrote:

>: >: >Ole Kreiberg ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: >: In article <[email protected]>, Silke-Maria Weinec wrote:
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: >If it doesn’t matter to you that other people died a gruesome death, why
>: >: >: >should it matter to us whether you can continue to blabber on?
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: Hey a lot of people have died a gruesome deaths all the way through history
>: >: >: and even today people are tortured to death in many countries around the
>: >: >: world (if you are going to believe e.g. reports by Amnestry International).
>: >: >: Silke, can you give me just one good reason why I should care more about
>: >: >: people murdered by _you_ Germans during Hitler than people murdered in
>: >: >: Uganda during Idi Amin or Cambodians murdered by the Khmer Rouge? In
>: >: >: Cambodia more than one million people were killed. Why should I be allowed
>: >: >: to suggest that this figure is very much exaggerated and distorted due to
>: >: >: Vietnamese propaganda, which was created with the purpose of legitimating the
>: >: >: Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodja, if I am not allowed to say,
>: >: >: that much about the treatment of the Jews by the Germans during WW2 are
>: >: >: likewise exaggerated and distorted in order to overshadow Allied war-crimes
>: >: >: and the Jewish conquest of Palestine? Give me one good reason why I should
>: >: >: care more about the German treatment of the Jews during WW2 than the
>: >: >: American treatment of the Red Indians during the expansion of the USA (or
>: >: >: the American creation of “Lebensraum” to the West) and the Negroes before
>: >: >: the abolishment of the slavery? What makes the Germans and the Jews so
>: >: >: special?

>: >: >You shouldn’t deny the gruesome deaths of anyone that comes to your
>: >: >notice; you are human; you are called upon to at least witness. My point
>: >: >was not about the special status of a group of victims, but about the
>: >: >fact that you seem to think that you can have human rights, civil rights,
>: >: >in an atmosphere where you dehumanize yourself.

>: >: “Witness” what? That is a religious usage. And, yes, we all agree this
>: >: is a religious issue.

>: >: In the religious sense it means, “I have no first hand knowledge but I
>: >: will swear that I believe it.”

>: >: You attitude in the rest of your post is clearly religious.

>: >Sure. It’s the religion of knowing who has the better documentation; it’s
>: >the religion of hating stupidity almost as much as cruelty since the
>: >former prepares the way for the latter.

>: But were you honest you would know you are not basing anything upon what
>: you know but swearing to what you have been told to believe.

>: Were you honest you would admit you have no basis for your belief.

>: Were you honest with yourself you would admit you have not critically
>: considered and reviewed the smallest fraction of what you believe.

>: That of course means you are no better than a true believer, a convert,
>: a mindless follower. Your only contribution is to repeat a catechism of
>: what you have come to believe but of which you have no knowledge.

>: You have no intellectual contribution to this discussion. It is as
>: though you have never thought at all.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 22 09:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52095 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer Digs itself in deeper
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:03:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]
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On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:59:09, [email protected] (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>> If I have to spell it out further, unspecified penalities will be
>>>>invoked.

>>>> I hope this is clear.

>>>Hee hee heee.

>>>Sue and be damned.

>>>Pretty, pretty please.

>> This time I said nothing about suing.
>>

>I know, and that’s what got you in trouble. You’ve the right to sue —
>although you’ve got to be prepared for the penalties of your frivolous lawsuit
>– but you don’t have the right to make implicit threats of violence.

>Now, have you?

>I’ll leave the answering of that question to Netcom, and to the cops, and
>perhaps to your local authorities. You can talk it over with them.

>Enjoy.

You are rather insane to read what is not there. You are one of the folks who are
working to stop me from posting, including involving my parents in this matter. You
are all scum of the earth.

From [email protected].com Mon Jul 22 09:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52096 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:30:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 209
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 21 Jul 1996 21:58 MST, [email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 21 Jul 1996 16:26:26 GMT, [email protected] (Silke-Maria Weineck)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>No, sorry, Giwer, you’re dead wrong. I happen to hold a Ph.D. and know
>>>how to do research and how to compare evidence — a skill you’re
>>>clearly lacking. A hint: websites by Neonazis are not usually
>>>considered to be valid documents. Now let’s hear your qualifications
>>>for mouthing off.
>>
>> If you have what you claim, why do you not demonstrate it here? On the other hand,
>>what might that PhD be in? Unless it is in a science or engineering or a related
>>field, it is certainly not related to analytic thought. You certainly demonstrate
>>none on this subject.
>>
>> But then, surprise me. Tell me it is not literature or history or some other
>>typically worthless filler degree. Surprise me again and tell me you are actually
>>working in your degree field.

> Troll.

> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
> is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he
> has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
> of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
> contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
> emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
> himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
> that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond.
> For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

> BTW: Giwer’s qualifications for mouthing off are that he acknowledges
> no knowledge base outside his own and he has the most perfect fit to
> his own knowlede base. It is egoistically insane, but it works for
> him.
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Message-Id: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (Andrew Mathis)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: ATTENTION: An apology to Ken McVay and a clarification
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:38:47 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Dear readers:

I’ve just returned from being away all weekend to find Matt Giwer is
claiming that Mr. McVay harrassed his 80+ year old father on the
telephone to give up Giwer’s number, and is making veiled threats
against Mr. McVay.

I have a strange suspicion that the allegations being made by Matt
Giwer against Ken McVay are, in fact, *my* fault.

Allow me to explain:

*I* phoned Matt Giwer’s father on a weeknight last week and asked for
Matt’s phone number. I actually called thinking it was Matt’s own
number, since he gave me the impression that he was easy to find, as
he implied in the post below, culled from DejaNews (any dubious
readers may find the article themselves for verification at
www.dejanews.com):

Subject: Re: Whacko Jew posting alert!

From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)

Date: 1996/07/12

Message-Id: <[email protected]>

References:

<[email protected]>

<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <31DCB5E6.4C13 @azstarnet.com>


<[email protected]>

<[email protected]> <