Documents

Giwer Matt, 3-1996 – p3

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 12:22:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50223 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:11:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:55:28 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># As you know, non-scientist, the mentions of the time
># support 6-12 hour outgassing as you have posted.

>As you know, non-employed,

I prefer, of independent means, if you don’t mind youngster.

the German source explicitly
>says that after an hour, or at most two, there was no
>detectable residue of HCN in the Zyklon carrier. And
>this, at a very low temperature.

You may post that again if you wish.

>So, you erred in your estimation of the outgassing
>time, by a factor of 16. See why you can’t get a job?
>Who would hire a klutz like you?

Do you see why you are a) stuck in a university and b) in a world which
considered Baysian statistics a running joke?

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 12:22:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50224 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:02:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:04:32 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Get with the program, boy. His altars have been found,
># many of them. They are adorned with horns.

>Where? What? When? Maybe these were just oddly shaped
>tables? Remember the gas chamber – morgue analogy? Can you
>PROVE these were altars?

They might be what you suggest but they are also pointed out by
aercheologists as horns and taken to mean they were the sacrificial
altars of Yahweh god as opposed to the sacrificial instruments to the
other Israelite gods.

And again, I do not claim proof, only evidence. Aercheological evidence
is worth about what you pay for it.

But I leave it up to you. If they were not the alters (with blood
grooves and all the rest) just what which god were they altars to? They
match all blood sacrifice altars found in the region in essential
charactistics. And they are found in the foundations of large builds
that would correspond to all other temples in the region.

The region in this case being the Near East, Israel being a small to
negligable part of it. Were it not for Christianity, the history of
Israel would be on a par with the Hittites, minor players in world
events.

># As I have been told, do your own research. You might as
># Alec where to start.

>No go. You’re claiming a genocide by the early Israelites
>took place? You have to prove this, according to *your*
>standards of proof, that *you* demand for the Holocaust.

I claim only evidence. Start with the Book of Joshua.

>Otherwise, it will be clear you’re a bloody coward and that
>you apply a double standard when judging historical events.

>You’re unemployed. You got lots of time. Get a move-on,
>chump, and show us the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

The physical evidence is so well known it has been incorporated into a
TV series.

It is not amazing that you deny knowing of it.

It is only amazing if you really do not know of it.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 13:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50240 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:47:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 13 Jul 1996 08:01 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:27:45 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>## Get a job, punk. No nazihugger here willing to give this
>>>## person a job? The punk had to retire at the age of 46,
>>
>>># Chose to, youngster.
>>>#
>>># There was not much call for clever ways to kill Russians.
>>
>>>Force them to read all your articles? Nah, too cruel I guess.
>>
>>>So why did you retire? Your text above is self-contradicting.
>>
>> If you must pry, there was no longer much call for the fun parts of the
>>job, plenty of the boring stuff like logistics and maintenance, and I
>>did not have to work. So why bother?
>>
>> There are always other things to do, like starting up a website server
>>in a few months, with a T1 line, not a pissant thing like Nizkor uses.

> Troll.

Excuse me. It is hard to find people these days who think a 28.8
connection on a 25 MHz machine is impressive. It is good to see you are
one of them.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 14:50:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50248 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:42:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On 13 Jul 1996 08:14 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 12 Jul 1996 09:39 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>>>> For those who happen to follow US partisan politics there is an obvious
>>>>and clear example that has been running for the couple weeks.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Dole said that he did not think cigarettes habit forming only
>>>>addictive.
>>
>>> This is not what he said.
>>
>>>> Now clearly addiction means that tolerance level increases quickly and
>>>>the dosage increases to obtain the same effect. The common example is
>>>>opium and it derivatives.
>>
>>> This is not a good definition of addiction.
>>
>>>> Yet clearly the term addictive in the US has come to have no meaning and
>>>>that any substance (substance only) that is hard to stop using must be
>>>>called addictive. Addictive means clearly, hard to stop using.
>>
>>> No, that is what habit forming means. Addiction means a physical
>>> dependence on the substance. And nicotine (in cigarettes) is
>>> addictive.
>>
>> People develop a physical dependence upon the endorphins released by the
>>feelings of love.
>>
>> Yet we know there are people who can walk away from both love and
>>cigarettes, they are rare but they exist.
>>
>> And before you jump into the “dangers” reconsider the Romeo and Juliet
>>scenario of the life threatening dangers of love.

> Nice try at changing the subject.

The subject was the general form of the issue as in why care about
whatever it is, habit forming or addictive. TV is habit forming.
Waking up at a certain time on weekdays is habit forming. The real
issue is why care?

> The AMA says that cigarettes are addictive. If you have medical
> evidence to contradict them, go ahead and present it. I doubt many
> will accept Shakespeare as legitimate medical evidence.

If you have never heard of suicide over a lost love then you are advised
to start with Shakespeare. If you have never heard of murder over same,
start with the same source. Those are real dangers.

> And I note that you do not dispute my assertion that you got the Bob
> Dole quotes wrong. Therefore, yur original point is not moot.

His first statement that started this was that some people can walk away
>from cigarettes without concern. That is of course true.

Many more could do so if they can reject the public perception that it
is difficult to quit just as the greatest problem for many heavy
drinkers is getting over the public perception that there is a problem
with stopping drinking.

Popular belief is the cause of many strange things, such as in some
cultures “pointing the bone” really does cause people to die.

Dole is old enough and experienced enough in public perception to know
how ideas come to be true and take on a power of their own. The
children in the White House do not.

It is no different from how the gassing became true. World history is
littered with such stories as is recent history. Remember those
bungling burglars at Watergate? There was never any tape on any door
that tipped off anyone.

Remember the 80s? Of course not. In 1987 the most common story about
tax reform was of the “rich” swearing to become Democrats because of
their new tax bill under the Reagan tax overhaul. But as you “know”
today the rich had their taxes cut by that overhaul.

Do you remember the Viper Militia? Turns out they never called
themselves even a militia and the “viper” was made up by the infiltrator
who supplied the explosives after encouraging their use.

It is all a matter of perception becoming accepted reality. You are too
young to have seen it happen enough to believe it is possible. Much
less are you old enough to see how such myths become defining realities
upon human behavior, even to the point of self induced death.

Some day you will learn what the world is really like. Cigarette
condemnation of a cigar loving President is one of them. But remember,
he did not inhale.

You may learn some day but I doubt you will remember me at that age. It
is unfortunate that you can not learn it now.

From [email protected] Sun Jul 14 15:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50260 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:08:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4s2fq[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:22:54 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

># A great problem with the orthodox gas chamber story and
># alleged history is that is has not been exposed to the rigors
># of academic examination and review.

>This is a totally ridiculous claim. Prove it, if you can.

>There have been a rather large number of historians who
>studied the Holocaust. You’re just throwing words around,
>which have no meaning and no relation whatsoever to the
>truth. So, do not whine when people refer to “revisionists”
>as Nazi propagandists. When you lie, and refuse to back your
>lies, people will call you that. It’s really simple.

It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
fields that are not their specialty. Aercheologists and anthropologists
and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
specialists all the time.

On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims. Do you have a name
and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?

Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare. How about experts
on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50286 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:17:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31e3a848.13[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:09:00 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have no problem if you wish to denounce the writings of the
>> Hebrews/Israelites as total fantasy and thus denounce any and all gods
>> you folks have been stupid enough to follow for so long.

>Then renounce your American citizenship, because the US was founded on
>those self-same myths.

Which ones? You mean the “we hold these truths self evident” line?
That was the Declaration Of Independence.

This country is founded on the Constitution.

The first government for the colonies was based upon the Articles
of Confederation established on15 Nov 1777. It has no mention of any
god.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer5/artconfd.html if you are
curious.

Another Canadian who thinks he knows something about the US. The place
crawls with them.

>You seem unable to read what others write and have again done a ground
>shift. Don’t move to California, Matt.

>Repeating:

>>
>> >No – you are talking about the mythology that is part of a religion
>> >known as Hebraism and is the ancestor of several major religions.
>>
>> >Judaism has *NO* recorded acts of genocide – other than the Holocaust
>> >against us.

>Please stick to the thread.

You are responding to yourself.

>You have yet to show the HEBREWS as having performed any genocide. When
>the Big Kahuna gives the order – you become his extension. You are not a
>free agent and cannot be held responsible for *HIS* actions thru you.

It is a strange people who would blame a god for such inhuman acts. It
is strange why anyone would buy it.

>Therefore you can only claim that THE SAME GOD THAT WAS USED AS
>JUSTIFICATION FOR THE TAKING OF NORTH AMERICA was also responsible for
>knocking off the folks that he decided to knock off – or you can claim
>that it is just the typical exaggeration of the cultures of the time.

Not that I am aware of. Perhaps you can demonstrate the US was a
theocracy at some point and took political guidance from some god or
other. It will be an interesting exercise for you.

>If you want the claim of genocide, then you contradict your claims as to
>the existence of Moses.

Moses was not involved in the means of conquest. That started with
Joshua.

>You are switching logic in mid-stream, a dangerous sign and a symptom of
>loss of reasoning faculties.

You need to read your “bible” a bit more frequently.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50300 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben embraces Nazi anit-Semitism
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:50:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On 12 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/germany/farben farben.008
>Last-modified: 1993/06/10

A hiding behind a site name idiot posts.

Well done, coward.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50317 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH shut down
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:56:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:54:10 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> But there is no way to deal with mutually incompatible laws across the
>> border. The Canadians laws here are those.

>Since laws of other nations have no effects outside their borders, I trust you
>will immediately call your representatives and denounce the Helms-Burton Bill
>which tries to extend US law to other countries, in effect allowing the US
>government to decide what citizens of other nations can and cannot do?

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]

It has always been my understanding that countries have a right to
control entry. Has that changed?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50340 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:59:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On 14 Jul 1996 08:38:40 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>>> Excuse me. It is hard to find people these days who think a 28.8
>>>connection on a 25 MHz machine is impressive. It is good to see you are
>>>one of them.

>> Another troll. Yawn.

>Indeed… Mr. Giwer missed several machines… but he knew that. Both
>Mr. Giwer and Mr. Schoedel complained about slow access to Nizkor, and
>we initiated immediate steps to improve the situation.

>And, although access has improved with the addition of our first web
>mirror, we knew that Mr. Giwer and Mr. Schoedel would not be satisfied.
>For that reason, we have taken further steps to deal with their complaints.
>The nature of our response will become clear in due course, and we are
>quite certain that Mr. Giwer will find access much improved.

>Stay tuned 🙂

You mean you are going to get your name off of the (US) milnet list?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:09 PDT 1996
Article: 50353 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:54:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4s2len$[email protected]> <4s32[email protected]> <4s[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 13 Jul 1996 18:56:48 GMT, [email protected] (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Just tell me where you stand on the matter and I will answer your
>: questions.
>:
>: Do you believe it is all BS and these Jews have been bemoaning their
>: suffering over nothing?
>:
>: Or do you believe it is real and in fact they did invent genocide?

>False choice. I believe most of the stories in the old testament
>are mythical or semi-mythical. This is not the same thing as “BS”.

Other than BS what are myths?

Want to go into that crap that elevates storytellers are mystical read
the archetypes nonsense?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50355 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:11:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>> the cold flor but I don’t think that they might have been long
>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>>
>>What is the equilibrium vapor pressure of HCN at say 0 C? What is the
>>lethal concentration of HCN?
>>
>>
>>T (C) Torr
>>
>>-20 100
>>0 260
>>10 410
>>20 610
>>30 900
>>
>>From DuPont’s “Hydrogen Cyanide: Uses, Storage, and Handling”
>>
>>260 Torr = 340,000 ppm. 300 ppm is rapidly fatal.
>>
>>So the vapor pressure of the absorbed liquid is well above lethal
>>concentrations even at very cold temperature. As far as the _rate_ of
>>evaporation goes, see Peters.

> And that is without even discussing the silly notion that a colder
>body must be in direct contact with a warmer body in order to be warmed by
>it.

> Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ….

What was there to correct. It is not Zyklon B. It has no direct
relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
effect upon evaporation.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50356 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:25:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4s7opu$n[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 2:27:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 11:36:28 GMT, [email protected] (Howard
Eisenberger) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) writes:
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>> that is about it) content.

>US legal content? In other words, content-based “censorship”.
>What about Free Speech?

Meaning that the only non-questionable item not accepted is kiddie porn.
But I will not be soliciting any form of sex site under the basic terms.
Too many hits.

Kiddie porn is about all we have left in the US that is dubious in its
free speech nature as it has it presumption that the involvement of
juveniles was a crime itself. The other side says that a film of a
convenience store robbery is a film of a crime and is protected.

I am with the latter position. But the state of the law at this point
almost assumes a conspiracy is mandatory. The law will most likely come
around to my point of view one of these years.

As to any criminal postings (threatening life of others, the clear
stuff), I would be the last to take them down. The longer they are up
the better they are as evidence in a trial.

I will cooperate with any criminal investigation. But as long as
payment is made anyone is on line.

So when can I expect your check?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:44:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 13 8:46:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 15:11:01 GMT, Nele Abels
wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>When you log on to Nizkor next time, you will note they have mastered
>>the statement and have stolen an animated GIF from
>>some place.

>> It is all quite impressive what they have mastered in a year.
>> Who knows what the next year will bring.

>This remark being a bit off topic in a newsgroup on a historical
>question, let’s try to reformulate it a bit:

>When you read Mr. Giwer’s posts in alt.revisionism, you will note that
>he still has not mastered using historical terms in their precise
>meaning, giving precise annotations in the rare cases he uses quotations,
>reading texts thoroughly, and understanding their meaning – all the basic
>skills needed for commenting on a historical subject.

> It is all quite impressive that he has not mastered these little
> feats in all his years of master-historianship and in spite of
> his IQ163. We all know perfectly well that the next year will bring
> no change.
>

>Nele

I have a better idea for those who are ashamed of their own name. Come
back on this conference with a real name and a real email address.
Until then, I do not deal with cowards.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50370 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: in the manner of suiing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:23:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:25:22 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
the Nizkor site. Two of them are “co-webmasters” but certainly it is
possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.

They should all be named.

The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
of interest to most any “contributor.” Of course if they can prove they
did not contribute to the defamation …

But then, they were only following orders.

But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
evidence.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: public presentation
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:34:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 4:36:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Should any of us have the public exposure to talk about the substance of
gassing I would like to suggest a theme.

FORGET that there is contention on the matter.

Speak only as though is as much a matter of ancient history as death by
steaming.

Treat it like only the terminally naive who have not kept up on matters
still believe in this nonsense.

In other words, threat the refutation of holohugger claims as an equal
gospel to the holohugger claims.

Your opposition will assume the holohugger position is true.

Practice a condescending tone and expression. “You still believe that?”
with the proper inflection can do wonders.

NEVER indulge in details. Continue to look at the interviewer as though
he is an idiot or came out of a time machine from 1945.

Speak only with the presumption that the matter has been resolved
against gassing.

Never debate, only attack.

Good enough for openers?

If not add to these guidelines and someone start a FAQ on the matter.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:29:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:31:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 15:01:07 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> This is an interesting discovery, that he is being sued along with his
>> Canadian and US donation acceptors and the two co-webmasters.
>>
>> After all, what is defamation of character all about?

> Why ask? I’m sure the lawyer you consulted told you that when he
>threw you out of his office.

> –YFE

If there was ever any message that confirmed my suspicion that you are
willing to lie about the law to promote Israelites this was it. Not to
say there were not many previous messages that did so but this is the
defining lie.

There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to McVay’s
actionable site. It is clearly racketeering under US law.

But you know that.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben Compensation Sought
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:34:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:36:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: pub/orgs/german/farben.ig farben.010
>Last-Modified: 1995/06/21

> Wartime slave workers seek cash from German firms

It appears now that someone who is able to post from and for Nizkor is
able to further involve his RICO racketeers in anything he wants.

Finger this address, find it on milnet and see who it really is.

The big kahuna is not going to be touched. The web serfs are going to
get burned.

That means you “contributors.”

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:02:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:04:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 05:34:30 GMT, [email protected] (Richard
Schultz) wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken ([email protected]) wrote:
>: > [email protected] (Prince Myshkin) writes:
>:
>: > As you know there is no provision for conversion in Mosaic Law

>: Funny. The book of “Ruth” is in my copy of the scriptures. Did
>: someone rip it out of yours?

>By “Mosaic Law” I believe he means the first five books of the Bible.

Not the first. Only 2 through 5. You really do no want to be
associated with Genesis. It is real hard over shit.

>In which case I would ask him

So why do you not ask me?

to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
which is not conversion either, fool.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:20:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4rc[email protected]> <[email protected]> <13JUL199622151832@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 5:23:00 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:22:12 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>> Mittleman) wrote:

>> Dear jerkoff Jew,
>>
>> Shall I do it again?
>>
>> You are not welcome.
>>
>> This is not your newsgroup.
>>
>> Go away.

>1. Danny Mittleman was here long before you crawled in from whatever fetid
> swamp you emerged from.

Actually I was here before he showed up but there was a hiatus in my
participation. He is one of the actionable newcomers.

>2. “Dear jerkoff Jew” is a fine way to start a response considering that
> you are threatening to sue someone for calling you an antisemite.

Since the “charter” of Nizkor is wider than that antisemitic is the
least of the points.

If you wish to go further, the AS complaint is against a group, this is
directed towards an individual.

That makes it no different from “You jerkoff liberal.” Get over it.

Your concept of antisemitic is self-serving.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:40:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:42:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 14:57 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison writes…
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>> that is about it) content.
>>>
>>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
>>
>>So, f’r instance, someone was to set up a web page called “The Tale of
>>Matt Giwer, Troll” and link it to various locations that have catalouged
>>your lies, mistatements and evasions, also offering links to Nizkor and
>>has commentary from people whom you have libelled, insulted and lied to,
>>the Thomas Paine (?) web server would carry it, yes?
>>
>>Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

> Funny how you and I had the exact same idea immediately! Before today
> I couldn’t imagine a scenario where I would be writing a cheque to
> Giwer. Now I can wait. I want to have the first page on Thomas
> Paine-in-the-ass ISP! I am going to mirror Rack Jite and provide links
> directly into the Giwer section of Nizkor. Yesseree this will be fun!

> OK, so obviously I will do a Matt Giwer / Eleanor Roosevelt separated
> at birth page, but does anybody have any other ideas about what I could
> do?

Ready to send me a check?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:38:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:40:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 08:17 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>that is about it) content.
>>
>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
> ^^^
> IPS == Idiotic Persistent Spammer

If that is what you are connected to, that is your business.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:39:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:41:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

> What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer’s
> trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence! We will quickly find out
> to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!

It looks like I can offer a gig for $500 a month but nothing a firm yet.

I will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Interested?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:39:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4rc[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:40:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (A Huber) writes…
>>>
>>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>>when asked nicely by participants in this group.
>>
>>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup. j*ws are not “participants”, but
>>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide
>>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons
>>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the
>>higher will be the quality of discourse.

> Talk amongst yourselves. Now THERES an effective way to convince
> others. Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.

> daniel david mittleman
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”

Dear jerkoff Jew,

Shall I do it again?

You are not welcome.

This is not your newsgroup.

Go away.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hagen Responds
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:42:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:44:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:21:17 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:

>—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

>Calling all H*bers and G*wers! One Holohugger correcting another!

Is an asterix [*] as good as a hyphen and make us gods to the j*wish
cattle?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:20 PDT 1996
Article: 50402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:55:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 12:56:54 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 02:33:06 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison writes:

>>
>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> One word with regard to the “suffocating cough:” remember that
>until
>>> late in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a lachrymogen as
>a
>>> warning indicator to let people know in the event of a leak – cyanide
>is
>>> not as clearly noticeable. The cough may have been caused by residual
>>> lachrymogen, which to be effective would have to be detectable before
>the
>>> cyanide developed lethal levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was
>in
>>> the area.
>>
>>If the lachrymogen behaved anything like CN or CS then it may have
>persisted
>>long *after* any cyanide had been neutralized. The coveralls I wore
>during
>>NBC training (and the t-shirt I wore underneath) that were exposed to gas
>>maintained the distinct odor for months afterwards, even after having
>been
>>chemically treated and washed many many times.
>>
>>This brings up a potentially interesting point. Tear gas will absorb
>into
>>clothing easily and still be effective, at least minimally. Exposure to
>>damp skin (not just the eyes and nose/mouth) can be extremely painful.
>After
>>the gassing session, I was the first one to hit the showers and the
>others
>>laughed when I practically screamed as I jumped in…at least until it
>>was their turn. Nasty stuff.
>>
>>Perhaps removal of lachrymogen in Zyklon B was due not solely to its use
>>as a killing agent but to make it easier to clear out the bodies after.
>>Much as the guards supplied the Sonderkommando with gas masks, perhaps
>>they eliminated the lachrymogen because it became a nuisance having the
>>body carriers in pain and not moving bodies efficiently enough.
>>
>>

>This is interesting, but I still inclined to regard that detail as a fake
>detail. Someone here posted that the warning agent was a formic acid
>compound (smell of mashed ants). That’s a bad scent, but not a cough
>inducer. Secondly, the warning stuff for cyanide gas would be to alert
>you of its presence. An *alert* that would consist of making you cough,
>and thus taking in deep breaths to defeat it, would, it seems to me,
>ensure deep inhalations of the gas you are supposed to be getting away
>from.

>Your comparison with CN and CS (with which I was trained also) is very
>apt. And I think it was per analogy with such gases (which go back to
>WW1) that the above *detail* was created.

>However there are two questions that remain unanswered: Does HCN provoke
>a cough? How can the warning stuff provoke a cough when by 1944 the
>Zyklon was supposedly made without it?

First off it is all bullshit so why go further.

The problem is that the ability to smell (SMELL) HCN gas is it lacking
in a small percentage of the population.

The suggestion of a tearing agent is absurd.

By the time anyone would tear from HCN they are dead.

This is just one more stupidity introduced by the holohuggers.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:21 PDT 1996
Article: 50404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:47:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:48:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 13 Jul 1996 21:54 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 13 Jul 1996 08:08 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:08:10 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Chose to retire at 46, hmm? Let’s see, you claim to have graduated in ’67,
>>>>>and assuming a normal 4 year program you’d be 22…24 years later retired,
>>>>>that would be 1991 or ’92, about the same time as the USSR fell.
>>>>
>>>>>Jeez, I’m amazed. Giwer has related a series of internally consistent
>>>>>statements.
>>>>
>>>> The Cold War stand down began in 1988 with the reduction of DEFCON
>>>>level. It was when they stopped maintaining most of their missiles on
>>>>the military side, subordinated their military to fiscal concerns and
>>>>took the first steps towards establishing an international exchange rate
>>>>for their currency. Technically what killed them was their Marxist
>>>>refusal to put a cost on money and thus the ruble had no exchange value
>>>>with any but their allies.
>>>>
>>>> The end finally came with the Gulf War which was not against Iraq but
>>>>against the Red Army. It was to make the case that it was powerless
>>>>against the US. Gorby had gotten control of the KGB and the CPSU and
>>>>with that defeat of Russian military equipment he was able to get
>>>>control of the the Army. There were only three power structures in the
>>>>SU. He had them all.
>>>>
>>>> Their fate was sealed after that war. Their last serious source of hard
>>>>currency was from sales of military hardware. After that war it was
>>>>selling for 10% of its prewar price, i.e. a drug on the market you
>>>>couldn’t give away.
>>>>
>>>> The first five year troop reduction plan was passed in 1990 and we are
>>>>in its last effective year. There should be another troop reduction
>>>>plan in the current DOD appropriations bill but I have not taken the
>>>>time to dig it out. If you get passed what is encapsulated for public
>>>>consumption you will find the disagreements are over what kind of
>>>>weapons are best for the much smaller military we will have in another
>>>>five years.
>>
>>> Nice meandering gibberish, but the fact remains that there is lots of
>>> work to be done in the American military industrial complex. But
>>> apparently there was no role for Giwer in any of this.
>>
>> What would a school kid know?

> Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
> they did was drop the dead weight around ’91 or so, and the military
> R&D budgets have gone back up. The good people moved from the
> government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
> PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture. But you know
> that, troll.

Just to keep this all growing as you are the asshole who does not know
how to delete …

You know not word one about TOTAL budgets or inflation.

Other than that, you have mastered the big red switch.

If you are too young to remember the swithch, then you need to grow up
before you address your elders.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 07:13:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 06:57:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 1:59:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:02:01 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>> bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>> fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>> that is about it) content.
>>
>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.

>So, f’r instance, someone was to set up a web page called “The Tale of
>Matt Giwer, Troll” and link it to various locations that have catalouged
>your lies, mistatements and evasions, also offering links to Nizkor and
>has commentary from people whom you have libelled, insulted and lied to,
>the Thomas Paine (?) web server would carry it, yes?

>Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

Ready to put up the cash so I can laugh all the way to the bank?

Shall I consider this a binding offer?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50408 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: freedom of speech
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:37:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:39:11 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

There is no freedom when the people do not believe in it.

Here is the problem, unless everyone supports this freedom it will be
lost. That anyone excuses censorship of ideas is a person who does not
belong on the internet.

Fuck them and the keyboard they rode in on.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960711: Speaking up [Your daily Nazi propaganda fix]
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:31:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 3:33:03 AM CDT 1996
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On 14 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (A Huber) wrote:

>> * “There are ethnic-specific limits to enjoying the freedom of the
>> Internet” (September 17th)
>>
>>You can start, Ms. Rimland, by naming one or more ethnic groups which
>>are limited from enjoying the freedom of the Internet. Thanks.
>>
>>Posted; emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
>>–
>> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.

>In specific response to your querry above, the first “ethnic group”
>targeted by Nitzkor and j*w-run providers are Gentiles. We refute your
>holocaust lies. As such, we are continually harassed, our providers are
>harassed and web-sites shut down, and our mailboxes runneth over with
>tirades from your beloved yeshiva. Our freedom to enjoy the net to its
>fullest are, therefore, curtailed.

>As punishment for McOyVey’s sins, there shall be a “little” holocaust of
>local import before morn’.

>Watch our local papers Tuesday for details.

But of course we will prevail and they will lose.

That they do not reliaze this is their problem.

On this newsgroup we have won already.

It is just a matter of time before their gassing is history, in the the
forgotten sense.

But keep in mind that they will continue to play the martyr even without
gassing.

The chant / rant will not change.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 09:39:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Any day now”?
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 04:02:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31e6497a.1895[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 13 11:04:23 PM CDT 1996
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On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:35:18 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Part II. Top half lopped off.

>>If you’d like to donate a scanner and software to Dr. Ulrich Roessler in
>>Germany, who has the patent and is working on a translation, I imagine
>>he might be grateful enough to scan it and upload it to Nizkor. Since
>>we’re all volunteers, I’m afraid we aren’t the best equipped or staffed.
>>But your donation can help correct that. Thanks again.

> “If you’d like to donate a scanner and software to Dr. Ulrich
>Roessler …”? Jamie down by the school yard.

>Jamie has stated that he has a summary of the patent, which should
>cause the wondering mind to think of how he would come to have a
>summary and not all. How long does it take to translate something like
>a patent – or a manual?

>Here is what Jamie said 4 months ago on 2/25/96:

>”My source for the ten-minutes figure, incidentally (I’m surprised you
>didn’t ask!), is the Zyklon patent. I don’t have a direct citation
>for it yet, nor quotes, but it’s been summarized for me by reliable
>sources who have found it, in Europe, and whom I hope will send me
>photocopies any day now.”

>”Reliable sources” evidentally have supplied Jamie with something.
>Translated even. Unless Jamie reads German. But then he ask me to
>translate it for Nizkor, so that wouldn’t be it. So we have Jamie
>saying he has a summary of this patent, but the thing hasn’t been
>translated yet, and Jamie doesn’t know German, leaving the question of
>how he comes to be citing it out here?

>Anyway it’s clear from the record of the thread that Jamie tried to
>get away with a fast one with his claim that “Zyklon B” gave up all of
>it’s HCN in ten minutes, but then eventually had to say, “By the way,
>I should correct myself: I don’t know that it was Zyklon _B_
>specifically, nor that the ten-minute release time was accurate for
>all forms.”

>What a mess.

>Theres something fishy with this Degesch patent. Here we are talking
>about the very core of the Holocaust story, the gas, THE gas, and we
>have this network out there that has spent millions promoting the
>story, and has resorted to energetic intrigues, stopping at nothing to
>get it out there, and here we have this document that should shed some
>light on the THE gas, and it’s not available, in any language.

What is missing is always more interesting that what exists in such
stories. When they are fantasies they start with the periphery and work
inward creating a ring of circumstantial evidence.

When they are fact, they start with the evidence and work outward.

As it is, we are starting with a few million who can not be traced after
the war (inside the Soviet Union no less) and trying to work inward
claiming the sole cause for this is that they were gassed or executed
for some reason that is inconsistent with any documentation.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 13:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 05:32:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 12:34:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 10:32:04, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )] [Sat 13 Jul 96 >13:23][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> rSE> Molecular mass has an effect on diffusion, BUT diffusion is
> rSE> negligible compared to the eddy diffusivity and turbulence is
> rSE> mass independent to a first approximation.

>It’s the action of the gas *PRIOR TO MIXING* that is of concern
>here.

>During WWI chlorine was an effective poison gas because its high
>molecular weight caused it to fall near the ground and form a film.
>It could only be used on windless days because even a small wind
>would disperse it in the way you mentioned.

>The disaster at Bhopal was similar. A very high molecular weight
>kept it near the ground. Diffusion and dispersion caused a
>still-toxic miasma above the film of gas. It was high enough in
>weight that it would hold together for a while even if there was a
>slight breeze.

>When you go near an oil refinery or large storage area (or even a
>not-so-large one), you will smell the “oil” smell. Those are
>fractions with a molecular weight higher than air. The lighter
>fractions drift up and are dispersed rapidly.

>Du Pont’s best car paints, literally shipped by pipe from the Ajax
>Du Pont plant to the adjacent Oshawa GM plant in one case, would put
>11 gallons of solvents into the air for every gallon that ended up
>on the car. The venting consisted of large blowers blasting it into
>the atmosphere and effectively mixing it before the settling effect
>could occur. Oxidation and UV destroyed the stuff quickly.

>The same holds true for HCN. It doesn’t fall – it has a tendency to
>rise.

>IOW – even if simply released at ground level and not mechanically
>dispersed, it would (while still unmixed) rise. This would enhance
>the rate of mixing. Goodbye HCN danger!

>Combined with the fact that it was blasted into the atmosphere by
>the blowers, HCN would be heavily diluted by the time it got
>anywhere else. It’s dangerous in enclosed areas, not open ones.

>That same “rise” tendency explains some of the statements made by
>thw witnesses. The stuff is sprinkled in, hits the ground and
>evaporates out of its carrier. It then rises inside the closed
>container of the chamber and kills as it builds up from the ground.

>++GMAIL 1.3++ Poor Matt – he is trying, you know. Very trying.

And in fact you are doing very well. Every time someone has pointed out
that the HCN in those “induction tubes” would rise back up the tube the
holohuggers have screamed that it would diffuse down and out instead.

It is always good to have someone on the “other side” support what
really would happen.

I certainly want to extend my thanks to you for joining into this
discussion. You are helping out immensely. There have been so many
here without the least idea of the practicalities of engineering.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac – I.G. Farben Compensates Survivors
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:05:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jul 14 2:07:01 AM CDT 1996
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On 13 Jul 1996 04:00:07 -0700, [email protected] (Nizkor)
wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/germany/farben farben.009
>Last-Modified: 1994/10/06

> “In 1960 there was an Auschwitz memorial dinner. Among those who
> were in the camp were Norbert Wilheim, a Jew who decided to file a
> suit against I.G. Farben, our employer in the camps. I.G. Farben
> agreed to settle out of court if Norbert Wilheim was willing to
> represent all the other survivors of the camp and if they would be
> willing to accept a one-time settlement. The offer resulted in a
> payment of $5,000 to every inmate of the Auschwitz Buna
> concentration camp who could prove he had been there any time
> during World War II. The list amounted to several thousand people
> living in the United States, Canada, Israel and other countries.
> Once they agreed to the settlement a few of us decided that we
> could not take the money for personal use. We decided to create the
> Auschwitz Buna Memorial Scholarship Fund, dedicated to the memory
> of those who died but created to give scholarships to the children
> of survivors who had no parents to pay for their education. The
> money was turned over to Bar Ilan University.” (Ernest Michel, as
> quoted in Rothchild, 417)

> Work Cited

> Rothchild, Sylvia, Editor. Voices From The Holocaust. New York and
> Scarborough, Ontario: Meridian, 1982.

What an asshole to post for a dinner of those who did not die.

The worst of this is that they were underpaid.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don’t historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:03:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4s2fq[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:05:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 08:38:20 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
>>researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
>>fields that are not their specialty. Aercheologists and anthropologists
>>and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
>>specialists all the time.
>>
>> On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
>>historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
>>specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims. Do you have a name
>>and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?
>>
>> Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare.

> Indeed, there is just Fred Leuchter, who _calls_ himself one, but who
>has never actually designed one.

Designing one is hardly a criteria for the same reason. There is only
one constructed each time a state adopts gassing as an option. That
would mean the last one was designed some time in the 1950s. It isn’t
as though they wear out from hard usage.

But then that was part of the attack upon the messenger rather than the
message.

>>How about experts
>>on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
>>crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
>>an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
>>(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
>>including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)

> There are references to the Topf patent filed in the ’50s; it has been
>mentioned in posts here. You have not seen them? Or simply did not
>remember what you read?

Patents filed in the 50s miss the mark by a decade at least. That a
patent is filed does not mean that it works. (Or does that surprise
you? Or are you going to go through another of those stupid “patents
are real” routines?)

And we are talking about the designs in use in the early 40s which were,
as everyone appears to have admitted, still the inefficient for simple
incineration design of a real cremation furnace.

What I have read here are claims for more primitive designs than are
available today working four to six (or six to twelve, depending on the
story) times faster than they work today even though they are designed
to achieve the same end result as present day crematoria.

You apparently think that anything posted by people without the
slightest ability to critically consider what they post before they post
it to be the last word, just like Nizkor.

But as you have problems addressing the mail try this again.

None of this has been done at all. And certainly none of this has been
done on this conference.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 19:32:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 06:06:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:08:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:00:38 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:45:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>[snip]

>>>If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough to do
>>>the job – therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since the cost of
>>>transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of gas.
>>

>[snip]

>>
>>>Now – want to try again?
>>
>> Try again? You have supported my position admirably, more than I could
>>have imagined or expected. It is exactly what I have been saying.
>>Thank you.

> You now admit that the Zyklon could have outgassed fast enough to do
>the job, even in cold weather. Thank you. If you have been saying this
>all along, the paupacy of your English skills has certainly prevented
>anyone seeing it until now.

You are apparently suffering from a reading comprehension problem.

Outgassing is not linear. In the second 5 minutes another 10% of the
remaining 90% is released. It is not linear such that it is all gone in
50 minutes.

You should know basic things like that. It is unclear why you do not
without blaming the public education system.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 20:08:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50519 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:30:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <13JUL199621544481@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:32:27 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:54:57 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> > Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
>> > they did was drop the dead weight around ’91 or so, and the military
>> > R&D budgets have gone back up. The good people moved from the
>> > government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
>> > PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture. But you know
>> > that, troll.
>>
>> Just to keep this all growing as you are the asshole who does not know
>> how to delete …
>>
>> You know not word one about TOTAL budgets or inflation.

>And you know nothing about history, chemistry, medicine, anatomy, constitutional
>law, international law, geography, anthropology, biology, geology, engineering,
>photo analysis and basic reading.

>Did I miss any?

Only about how your wife wants it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 20:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:32:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <3[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 3:34:30 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 00:44:08 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Rather foolish, actually. You know, if you are experienced, that there
>>is no support gained any place but the lurkers. Participants have sides
>>before they join in and do not change sides.

>You would be surprised, I suspect as to the actual goals of this newsgroup.

>>>BTW – how many people have you persuaded that you are so valuable on
>>>their side that they go out of their way to give you helpful toys?
>>
>>>Do you know what the cost of a dedicated T1 is worth?
>>
>> Down this way it costs $1000 per month plus $900 per month (GeniTlE) for
>>the loopback. What is it up your way?

>A full T1 feed plus the actual connection to the Internet via an access
>provider is in excess of $3000. I get toys like that for free, because I
>persuade people to support me in my efforts.

>No, not “holohuggers”.

I gave you local prices. And I thought GTE was a ripoff. Turns out
they are a bargain.

Thanks for the info.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 02:21:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31e3a848.13[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 9:23:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 02:09:31 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> The problem with the holohuggers is that all things are true at the same
>>time and any disagreement with each other is on the order of being done
>>for show rather than in fact.

>Please try to make sense when you respond. The above is pure nonsense
>and a non-sequitur.
>>
>> However to use your approach to it, the choice of claiming a name and
>>membership is one that claims the history of the Hebrews/Israelites.
>>The name changes in the middle of Exodus so it is unclear which is the
>>proper name or whether they are interchangeable. However there are
>>enough subesequent references to the “your fathers in bondage” to
>>indicate interchangeability is a reasonable presumption.

>Please try to stick to the track.

>Judaism started as part of the schism caused by the attempts of the
>Hasmodeans to fuse Religious and Secular leadership.

>This is approximately 100 years before the official start of the
>Christian Era.

>Please pinpoint the portions of the Jewish tracts that document any
>Genocide.

>You seem to try to quote selectively from the mythologies of Judaism’s
>ancestor, Hebraism. This is a rational as a cretionist trying to “prove”
>things by selecting only specific items in that same set of mythology.

It appears you are saying that there is no relationship between today’s
Jews and the Israelites or Hebrews.

Is that correct?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NEW WEBSITE – Nation of Europa
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:03:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:05:17 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:01:34 +0100, Jeffrey
wrote:

>Statement of Purpose.

>a) To encourage those who belong to the Nation of Europa to explore,
>learn of and appreciate their great cultural heritage, and the deeds
>and achievements of their ancestors.
>b) To instill into those who belong to the Nation of Europa, the
>strength and the knowledge to rebuttthe lies, smears and defamation of
>detractors, a dedication to the values of freedom, peace, unity,
>solidarity and a common purpose, and the courage to develop and build
>healthy values and attitudes.
>c) To revitalise those who belong to the Nation of Europa, by promoting
>a joyful love of life, a love of wisdom and learning, and to seek new
>ideas for a new Ideal.

>—————————————————————————
> Nation of Europa
>The men of the present, to whom my heart once drove me, are strange to me and a
>mockery; and I have been driven from fatherlands and motherlands. So now I love
>only my childrens land, the undiscovered land in the furthest sea: I bid my
>sails seek it and seek it. I will make amends to my children for being the
>child of my fathers: and to all the future – for this present!
>[Page 144 Of the land of Culture, Thus spake Zarathusthra by
>Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 – 1900]
>
> http://www.demon.co.uk/natofeur/
>—————————————————————————
Nice site, excellant server.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 15 21:10:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:06:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <13JUL19[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:09:01 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:11:39 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> No, it wouldn’t. If McVay did that he would give up the amusement of
>>Giwer paying for his trip to whereever Giwer filed his action, the fun of deposing
>>Giwer for a week or so, and the pure joy of requesting the appropriate sanctions
>>be assessed against Giwer for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

> I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>his goofy career?

>>
>> –YFE

The charge of “frivolous” is one that takes lots of support else it has
a “chlling effect” upon the average amublance chaser. And of course
they must preserve their own constituency. Lacking ambulance chasers
the need for judges goes down.

Follow the money trail.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky – Corrupt
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:50:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31e90cca.8929[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:52:35 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:51:13 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Nizkor list a line of pages from this Peters book, totaling maybe
>15 pages. One should think it would be in the interest of Nizor’s
>position to post, in translated copy, any of it that is directly
>supportive to their position. Whatever it is. As it stands now, only
>those who can read German and root out the limited copy would be able
>to know what it is all about.

Not to mention that 15 pages goes far beyond fair use …

Perhaps someone should contact the publisher?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An old trend in J*daism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:54:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 1:56:48 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 1996 16:48:38 GMT, [email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>Date: Wednesday, 03-Jul-96 07:07 PM

>_Hungary to Compensate Jews

>The Hungarian government agreed today (7/3/96) to compensate the jewish
>community for property allegedly seized during World War II. Under an
>agreement, a Hungarian Jewish Heritage Foundation will be set up with a
>board of directors that consists of jewish leaders, government officials
>and independent members. The foundation will manage assets, including
>real estate and valuables they SAY once belonged to jews, and $26 million
>contributed by the Hungarian government.
>
>*******************************************

It would be good if the US did the same thing for Japanese who once
owned an intersection corner in Redondo Beach. But then, Jews are
special.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:16:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 233
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 10:18:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 11:12:54, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Genocide] [Sat 13 Jul 96 03:02][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> mnc> And again, I do not claim proof, only evidence.
> mnc> Aercheological evidence is worth about what you pay for it.

> mnc> But I leave it up to you. If they were not the alters (with
> mnc> blood grooves and all the rest) just what which god were they
> mnc> altars to? They match all blood sacrifice altars found in the
> mnc> region in essential charactistics. And they are found in the
> mnc> foundations of large builds that would correspond to all other
> mnc> temples in the region.

>Ummm, M-A-A-T-T-T!!!

>WAKE UP, MATT!!

>No altars, Matt. There were STATUES. There were all sorts of things
>- but no blood-sacrifice altars.

I even saw films of one of them and the blood groove and drainage path
was pointed out. The term horns was quite disappointing though. It
appears to be a term that was born of translation into English rather
than having started as an English description.

>Jeez! Don’t you ever read what I write??

What makes you think I am dependent upon what you write?

>There was a worship of a dual-deity. An ascetic worship – no
>sacrificial altars – that lasted until the time of Ezra and the
>encoding of Leviticus.

The particular statue on the show was of seven gods. There was also an
inscription making reference to Astarte as the consort of Yahweh God.

> mnc> The region in this case being the Near East, Israel being a
> mnc> small to negligable part of it. Were it not for Christianity,
> mnc> the history of Israel would be on a par with the Hittites, minor
> mnc> players in world events.

>The worship place was found at the foot of the FIRST TEMPLE, Matt!

That was in reference to the goddess cult.

>Memory like a damned colander!

The altars and 7 in 1 statues have been found all over as I said. You
appear not to have updated your information in some years. This stuff
is so old that it was on two of the six segments on the Middle East on
the series Aercheology.

The wide spread nature was specifically addressed as a response to the
suggestion that it was a local cult.

> >> # As I have been told, do your own research. You might as
> >> # Alec where to start.

> >> No go. You’re claiming a genocide by the early Israelites
> >> took place? You have to prove this, according to *your*
> >> standards of proof, that *you* demand for the Holocaust.

> mnc> I claim only evidence. Start with the Book of Joshua.

>Ahhh, yes! A bunch of nomads knock down the walls of a fortress by
>blowing into the horns of sheep, keep the sun standing still so that
>they don’t have to fight on the Sabbath and proceed to wipe out a
>single town.

>Did you really believe that there is somebody around from the planet
>Krypton as well?

>All or none, Matt. No selecting stuff like some creationist, Matt.

> >> You’re unemployed. You got lots of time. Get a move-on,
> >> chump, and show us the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

> mnc> The physical evidence is so well known it has been
> mnc> incorporated into a TV series.

>Interpretation, Matt. Prove it.

Evidence again. Proof is for mathematics.

> mnc> It is only amazing if you really do not know of it.

>Your “knowledge” consists of what I told you, Matt – badly
>remembered.

You should update your information. It ran less than a year ago on TLC.

This was produced shortly after seeing it.

The Greatest Story in History

by

Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/29>

      When I was a lad (I have waited
decades to say that) the press would always say the Second Coming
would be the greatest story in history. Today we cynically joke
about the headline, “World ends tomorrow, women and blacks to
suffer most.” Perhaps that cynicism is deserved as there is such
a story and it has only been covered in one documentary series.

      That series is “Aerchaeology”
hosted by John Rhyse-Davies and has only been shown in the US on
The Learning Channel on cable TV. In some six episodes it
covered the discoveries of archaeologists in Israel in recent
years. In two of them it objectively and in a very understated
manner, removed the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and the
Muslim religion.

      None of this is a secret. It
is in the technical literature and if you visit Israel you can
visit the sites. And yet that is the extent of the coverage of
the story.

      In one episode the evidence
of the origin of the Israelites is quite carefully laid out.
They always lived in the land of Israel as herdsmen and came to
power when people who lived in the cities for some unknown reason
lost power, possibly a war, most likely insurrection by the
herdsmen. To put it more bluntly, as they always lived where
they are there was no Promised Land. Lacking a Promised Land,
there was no Egypt, no Moses, no Ten Commandments. The entire
foundation for three religions has vanished.

      Lacking an Egypt and a Moses
we are also lacking a Joseph and an Abraham and a covenant with a
god. Circumcision, the sign of the covenant, becomes no
different from any other ritual sexual mutilation performed by
primitives around the world. In this everything in the first
five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, the foundation of three
religions vanishes.

      In the other episode the
Israelite pantheon is discussed. The idols of Yahweh, Astarte
(his consort, which is also in inscriptions so there is no
mistake), Baal and several other gods are shown. And a common
representation of all of them in one idol is also shown. Again
more bluntly, Yahweh God, God the Father of Jesus who was the
prophet before Mohammed was no more than an Israelite version of
Zeus, Jupiter or Odin.

      All of this has been implied
in the Bible itself and has been known for centuries. In the
last hundred years it has rapidly become clear from other sources
that there was no basis whatsoever for the Egypt/Moses story: it
being only slightly less fanciful than the magic fruit, the
talking snake and miraculous flood of Genesis.

      But now, in addition to
negative evidence, the lack of evidence for the truth of the
Egypt/Moses story, we have positive evidence of its falsity.
Without first person interaction with a god the Ten Commandments
are barely more a footnote in the history of human moral ideas.
Without a Moses it is difficult to give credence Mosaic Law as
being much of anything other than a curiosity.

      When we learn for certain
this Yahweh was just the first of a pantheon of gods (thou shalt
have no “other” gods before me, as it always read and always
meant) there is no credible basis to argue, “This one is real,
the rest were not.” Since this same god that is God the Father
of the Christian trinity it becomes laughable to argue for its
having either a son or a spirit as other parts of the same idol.
If there ever was a Jesus certainly he was no more than a man as
there is nothing more for him to have a relation than a stone
idol.

      And while Christians focus on
their Jesus, Muslims need to consider that their Allah is the
same stone idol. Their prophet is a prophet of a stone and when
they “akbar” their “Allah” it is this primitive idol they are
praising.

      That is the story that is not
being reported and it is more profound than I have portrayed. It
is easy to think about people recognizing there is no god but it
is another to examine that in practice.

      Next time you are driving
through town pay attention to all the churches and religious
references you see. That is how deeply we are enmired in the
worship of one of the gods of the Israelite pantheon. Listen to
the political speeches and delete the foundation in a god from
everything said. Review every law that exists to prevent an
offense against god, remove the god and try to fill in the blank.

      The UFO conspiracy types hold
the government suppresses what it knows about UFOs because of the
effect upon the people that “we are not alone.” Yet right here
for all to see and read about is the removal of the entire
foundation for the religious beliefs of over half of the world’s
population. It is the biggest news story of all time. It
appears the cynicism about what is news these days is clearly
warranted.

      Perhaps no one wants to be
the one to break the story? Perhaps it is just a matter of not
wanting to put it bluntly? But this is like leaving the coverage
of a UFO landing on the White House lawn to a “maybe, someday”
article by the paper’s science writer.

      And if one wanted to continue
to take religion seriously you would think a picture of Yahweh (a
photo of his idol) would be front page news. It is like
discovering a bust of Jesus or proof positive the Shroud of Turin
is authentic. A painting of Mohammet would pale in comparison
but these discoveries are not news.

      So while you have not read it
in the papers or seen it on the evening news, the greatest news
story of all time (at least of the last two millennia) is not
being told. Now you know it. The foundation of three major
religions is now gone and it was beneath the notice of the press.
It makes you wonder what else the media is not covering.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:24:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 12:27:02 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 09:42:48 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, Alec Grynspan writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>>>firebombing?
>>>
>>>Your rules – back at you!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Sorry, this just doesn’t work. Where are the three million who were
>>gassed? Completely disappeared. Not so Dresden. Photographs and foreign
>>journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
>>days. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Thousands of individuals, and even
>>national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
>>admitted to the bombing of Dresden. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Less
>>than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
>>million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
>>responsibility or involvement. Not so Dresden. And so forth.

> You aren’t following the discussion very well. The dispute is not
>really about whether Dresden was bombed, no more than anyone disputes
>whether Zyklon was used in the camps, although the reductio argument can
>be used on Dresden documents – they are _not_ immune to forgery.

It is your claim that there was ever a dispute over forged documents.

The
>dispute is not about whether there was a major fire and loss of life, no
>more than anyone disputes that a large number of people – well over
>100,000 even by SS records of registered prisoner deaths undisputed by
>revisionists – died at Auschwitz.

And the issue was never over recorded deaths but of the gassing deaths.

You really should start paying attention.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50606 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:30:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 2:32:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:43:35 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># Sorry, this just doesn’t work. Where are the three million
># who were gassed? Completely disappeared.

>You’re wrong right off the bat. There are numerous human
>remains in Treblinka and other camps. You must know this,
>as in the past you responded to this point in another article.

I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains that need to
be found to support 3 million.

How much has been found? Don’t bother, not even the reasonable fraction
of what is required.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.icsc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:25:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4s[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 11:27:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 15 Jul 1996 11:48:02 GMT, [email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> It is, now that you have not asked, inviting a Jew to Christmas dinner
>>which is not conversion either, fool.
>>

>Try again, Matt. It says sacrifice – which is a rite reserved for Jews
>and not guests – not meal.

>>>to explain Exodus 12:43-50, which gives a
>>>procedure by which a sojourner can become permitted to partake of the
>>>Passover sacrifice, of which he would normally be prohibited from eating.
>>>If that is not a provision for conversion, what is it?

Go argue with Alec G. on this point. He has 1600 hours of religious
education. He says there was no provision for conversion.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 02:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 50609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 04:26:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 587
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 15 9:29:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 14 Jul 96 10:57:42, [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Sat 13 Jul 96 04:17][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>

> >> Porous carriers of toxic chemicals are dangerous for as much as
> >> 24 hours or more after they are used, yet can easily release
> >> most of their product in a few minutes.

> mnc> Certainly, more than half of, in a few minutes. 30 to 60 is
> mnc> the more than half of under discussion here.

>Matt agrees with me.

We are in agreement. What more can I say?

> >> IOW – it’s like a capacitor discharge. 42% voltage leaks in
> >> time RC and 42% of what was left in 2*RC, etcetera.

> mnc> Precisely what I have been saying.

>He agrees again. The important percentage is released in a very
>short time frame.

> >> If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough
> >> to do the job – therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since
> >> the cost of transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of
> >> gas.

> mnc> I have no idea where you got the tanks of gas idea.

>Matt misses the point because it disagrees with his contention of how
>stupid the use of Zyklon B would have been.

I have not made that contention at all. Perhaps you should have read
what I have been posting before you started addressing what I am not
saying.

>Try real slow, Matt. If you want efficiency, you first have to
>define efficiency. Efficiency of transportation and storage can have
>a higher weight than completeness of use. If only 25% of the HCN got
>used in Zyklon-B it could still be judged as a better choice than
>the “perfect” gas-in-tanks would be.

That is still your issue. It has no bearing on what I have been saying.

The particular outgassing issue relates to the death times that are
reported most commonly on the order of 10 to 15 minutes (with CO on the
order of 15 to 20 minutes) although I can find reports of instantaneous
to two days as the extremes.

You note that the outgassing time is one aspect of this problem.
Although I am not ready to post, my first cut estimate of the total
amount of ZB needed to bring the infamous LK up to a concentration that
would kill in 10 minutes (300 ppm) would require some 4-6 Kg of
competely outgassed ZB assuming 50% by weight.

As you can see, with any reasonable outgassing time, even giving the
time as 15 minutes with 10 minutes of outgassing, there would be a huge
additional amount of ZB needed to reach lethal concentration so quickly.

For example, your 10% in five minutes ups the required amount by a
factor of five to ten to meet 15 minutes. And then since the “usual”
indicator of death is the screaming stopping the half lethal time is
much less than that 15 minutes increasing the amount required even
furtther.

> >> Now – want to try again?

> mnc> Try again? You have supported my position admirably, more
> mnc> than I could have imagined or expected. It is exactly what I
> mnc> have been saying. Thank you.

>Then you have been saying that Zyklon B is a good choice for
>exterminating people?!?

I have been saying that the descriptions of its use do not match with
the way it would have worked. I have taken the liberty to attach four
such descriptions which of course do not agree with each other and
although three of them are directly attributed to Hoess.

>Either you have a severe cognition problem or are declaring a
>victory-by-ground-shift again.

You really should have read what I have been saying first.

> mnc> I will keep this message as a reference for the unbelievers.
> mnc> You are very well credentialed and experienced and in fact you
> mnc> are in the holohugger’s minds unimpeachable.

>ANd I thought once that you might actually make a good “sparring
>partner” in a debate.

What is there to spar about? Following this you will find four separate
accounts, three of which are directly attributed to the man who should
know best. You might wish to bring yourself up to date on these stories
and then compare them to what you know about HCN and consider whether or
not you think they support its use.

The second set includes the “gelatinous masses” report. The speculation
on that particular report is that it was a vague reference to the WW I
blistering agents.

The blue color appears to “obviously” come from the German name for HCN,
Blausaure, even though you know it is colorless. And I can post the
Degesh publication again for you that specifically identifies the
carrier for the kind used for fumigation as wood pulp. There is no way
there is any reason to suggest any of the people seeing blue would have
actually seen what they are talking about.

So if you really want to participate in this you are going to have to
catch up on what is really under discussion rather than what you imagine
is under discussion.

=====

HOESS, RUDOLF FRANZ (1900-1947)… In 1934 he was attached to the SS at
Dachau … 1940 given rank of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer in command at the
Auschwitz camp. [He] was responsible for the execution of more than 2.5
million inmates, not counting a half million who were allowed to starve
to death. He performed his job so well that he was commended in a 1944
SS report that called him “a true pioneer in this area because of his
new ideas and educational methods.” He was sentenced to death at Warsaw
and was executed several days later at Auschwitz.

At the fulcrum of the extermination system in Poland were the camps at
Auschwitz, Maidanek, Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor….
Auschwitz was the most notorious of the extermination centers. At the
height of its activity Auschwitz could house more the 100,000 men and
women and could provide for the gassing and incineration of 12,000
prisoners a day…. The .. gas chambers could accommodate 2,000
prisoners at one time. Rudolf Hoess testified at Nuremberg: “When I set
up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Zyclon B which was
crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death-chamber from a
small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people
in the death-chamber, depending on climatic conditions. We knew when the
people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited for
half-an-hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After
the bodies were removed our special commandos [‘Sonderkommandos’ made up
of prisoners who were partially trusted] took off the rings and
extracted the gold teeth of the corpses.”

“We tried to fool the victims into believing that they were going
through a delousing process. Of course, at times they realized our true
intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties. Frequently women
would hide their children under their clothes, but we found them and we
sent the children to be exterminated. We were required to carry out
these exterminations in secrecy, but the foul and nauseating stench from
the continued burning of bodies permeated the whole area and all the
people living around Auschwitz knew what was going on.”

Taken from the …—————————————————-
Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, by Dr. Louis L. Snyder, Professor of
History, The City College and The City University of New York. Paragon
House, New York, 1989. ISBN 1-55778-144-3
——————————————————-

“The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11.
Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded
cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in.
A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over…. I must even
admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass
extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither
Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be
carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how
it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a
procedure.” “KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer”, second
edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.

=====

Here we have two different stories attributed to the same person.

If you would like to get out your browser, here are two more conflicting
stories on the same subject.

A Tale of two Gassings

A Tale of Two Gassings

For those seeing this for the
first time, consider for a moment the impact of essentially the
same story with the details changed and a different set of
fabulous details thrown in.

What you are going to read
are two different descriptions of the same event. Where you
would expect to find the two stories to be complimentary and to
shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.

We find unexplainable
contradictions in most places. In one case we find an
unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common
misconception. We find different people and numbers of people
involved.

We even find an absolutely
impossible deteail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing
comparison.

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot ¹

Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded

commentary

Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet
commissars and other POW’s who were subject to liquidation.
H&oumlss’s men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but
on September 3 H&oumlss’s enterprising subordinate
Hauptsturmf&uumlhrer Fritsch

Note that different people are involved in the different stories.
In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch.

Also note that in one case
there is no mention H&oumlss and in the other he is mentioned.

noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing
the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed
to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.

thought of an expedient new method based on the camp’s own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow to get rid of them.

Two experts had
fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide,
Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that
turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (H&oumlss, “Commandant
of Auschwitz,” 175. Interrogation of H&oumlss, 14 May 1946, NA RG
238, M-1019/R 28/63)

Note in one case the companions of
this officer are charged with delousing. In the other case
professional exterminators are brought in.

Note also that person knocked
out with one whiff of a deadly poison.

Note further that it is not a
crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen
cyanide absorbed into diatomite, what we commonly use today as
kitty litter and to clear up machine shop oil spills.

To Breitwieser, this seemed to
offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming
executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the
Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue
pellets,

Note that these pellets are grey
and not blue. Diatomite is grey. Cyanide is colorless. The
color is wrong.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

On September 3 Fritsch decided
to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians
and another 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital into an
underground detention cell.

Note that both the number and
the composition of the people differ.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas
masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like
blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of
poison gas.

After they left, the doors were sealed.(H&oumlss,
Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer,
“Auschwitz,” in J&aumlckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den
Juden, 167-68) H&oumlss wrote later that death was instantaneous.
Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to
witness the event; he was away on a business trip.

Note that the first story
appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other
stories while the second has a “walked among” indication.

Note in the second story this
is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the
gas is invisible.

Note also that this separate
and independent story also invents a false blue color.

Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the
bodies were met by a fearsome sight.

Other sources indicate that
even the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had
to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When H&oumlss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the
successful experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz,
H&oumlss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and,
according to H&oumlss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the
peasant farmstead for extermination.(H&oumlss, Commandant, 175.
>From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I,
190)(Breitman, 203)

Here we have a disagreement as
to the times involved and the subsequent actions if any. In the
first story it is unclear why, if being immediately “knocked out”
was expected that they waited two days. In the second story it
is strange that there is a major conflict between the time taken
to die.

Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their
death agonies, torn out each other’s hair, and bitten off their
fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous
blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail
tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)

Here we have a description worthy
of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King
would never make.

Go back and read about the
statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas.
Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they
die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted
injuries.

And then somehow this
particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and
which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing
into gelatinous masses.

When impossible things are
claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a
story.

We have two different people
getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions
are charged with delousing and in the second case professional
fumigators are brought in.

In one story it is 1000
Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick
people.

In one case the pellets are
dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are
walking around in the room to spread it.

In neither case is the room
large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.

In the first story there is a
very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked
out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting)
while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately.
No horrifying details are noted.

In the former story the
impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does
not include them or anything out of the ordinary.

One has to wonder how people
who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story
and the conflicts between them.

¹ also found in
Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database but it may be purged by
the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they
approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original
work.

=====

None of the four are particularly related to HCN or the effect it would
have.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50616 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group… (was Re: Baron exp…
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:12:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4r[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 16 12:14:43 AM PDT 1996
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On 15 Jul 1996 06:51 MST, [email protected] (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, [email protected] (Danny
>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (A Huber) writes…
>>>>>
>>>>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>>>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>>>>when asked nicely by participants in this group.
>>>>
>>>>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup. j*ws are not “participants”, but
>>>>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide
>>>>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons
>>>>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the
>>>>higher will be the quality of discourse.
>>
>>> Talk amongst yourselves. Now THERES an effective way to convince
>>> others. Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.
>>
>>> daniel david mittleman
>>>===========================================================================
>>> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”
>>
>> Dear jerkoff Jew,

> I am as atheist as you are, just not as obnoxious about it (thought I
> had mentioned this before.)

Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?

>> Shall I do it again?

> What, jerkoff? (I can’t follow your incoherent ramblings and this
> adjective is the only thing above that seems to resemble a verb for
> which “it” could be referring. Oh for the help of a Giweridian
> linguist.)

>> You are not welcome.

> Thank you, Emily Postnews.

>> This is not your newsgroup.

> Like you understand the history of alt.revisionism.

Please explain the history to us all, old timer.

Like you can claim
> any ownership at all over this group. Like anyone accepts your opinion
> as valid on any topic around here. Like what you say matters. Ha.

>> Go away.

> That’s the wonderful thing about usenet, no one can make us go away.
> In fact, that is the ONLY reason you are still here.

Despite the harrassment campaign, you mean.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50619 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:33:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4rs72o$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rt[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 15 Jul 1996 13:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Richard
James Green) wrote:

>[posted and e-mailed to Ehrlich606 so that he doesn’t miss it.]

>There is nothing necessarily inconsistent about reports that Zykon-B is
>blue and that it is mauve. In my lab we use silica gel with an
>indicator as a dessicant. When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
>blue. When it becomes wet, it is pink. When the dessicant just starts
>to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.

But we know from the Degesh document on the formulation used for
fumigation that the carrier was wood pulp. So there is no need to bring
this into the discussion. It is not relevent.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50621 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH – A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:37:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4rv[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On 15 Jul 1996 20:37:46 GMT, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Quite impressive but not outstanding nor of more than
> statistical interest.

> Nothing beyond normal demographic distribution.

>Mr. Giwer suffers from attention span problems. The original
>proposition was that Jews contributed nothing in America’s struggle
>for independence. Now, he concedes that Jews were involved according
>to their “normal demographic distribution.”

And I also said it is no different from tallying up the contribution of
red haired people.

>That kind of participation is good enough for any other ethnic group,
>but not for Jews, who must, according to Mr. Giwer and his ilk, do
>more than anyone else in order to be considered only slightly
>inferior to everyone else! But, since colonial Jews only matched the
>performance of other groups, they must be considered much inferior to
>everyone else.

What other ethnic groups? Please be specific in any other ethnic group
making such a claim. You will be the first so you might want to
consider publishing your research.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 16 03:09:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50626 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Email ‘bombings’?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:51:49 GMT
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References: <4s0hcj$o2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:41:54 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Holohuggers are into harrassment as a way of life.
>>
>> After all, it is all they have left after their myths are exposed.
>
>Quoth Matt Giwer:
>

> Never debate, only attack.
>
>Sara
>
>Oh, before I forget,

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer.matt/

>–
>”A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do.”
> Walt Whitman