Giwer Matt, 3-1996 – p1

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:07 PDT 1996
Article: 47237 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Whines Again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:59:02 GMT
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] wrote:

> Holohugger is a legitimate acronym […]

>[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) corrected him:

> One wonders when we are due to be enlightened as to the
> expansion of each letter of the word “holohugger”. Then again,
> I suppose if one were to find the mythical dictionary containing
> the definition of “paupacy”, one would no doubt find that the
> word “acronym” has a completely different meaning to that which
> all reasonable people understand.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] shows exactly what happens when anyone corrects
>his mistakes:

> If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
> fatbroad.

> The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know
> it. You have no other qualifications.

> You contribute nothing.

> You accept only sperm from a thing.

>And he has the nerve to claim that he only indulges in name-calling
>because he has been called names himself!

Fact is that I did not start it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:08 PDT 1996
Article: 47242 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:38:29 GMT
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>M. Giwer wrote:

>> Unfortunately, it is in the too hard category. The right way to do it
>>is to measure it. It isn’t the kind of thing I would do at home.

>Some time ago there was extended discussion of how hard it would be to do
>an experiment to determine HCN evaporation rates. There are three
>difficulties in doing this, none of them really major:

>(1) Obtain some pure HCN (or stabilized, with 1% or so additive to
>prevent polymerization explosions).

>(2) Conduct the experiment safely.

>(3) Monitor diffusion accurately if done in a known volume chamber.

>As a starting point, I would suggest placing a measured amount of HCN
>liquid in a shallow dish whose area has been measured, doing so in some
>remote location where the fumes will dissipate harmlessly (downwind!).
>Then simply stand upwind and measure the time it takes to evaporate,
>noting of course the ambient temperature, and perhaps measuring the
>temperature of the HCN with a simple Fluke thermocouple sensor since it
>will tend to cool as evaporation takes place.

This part can be calculated.

>The next phase would consist of making ersatz Zyklon with readily
>available diatomaceous earth pellets and repeating the experiment with the
> container placed on top of a digital scale in order to monitor weight
>loss and thereby evaporation. You would put a known amount of HCN in the
>pellets, and it wouldn’t matter whether or not the HCN content was
>maximized since the intent is to measure rate.

>It gets harder to do this in a known volume (to include diffusion),
>primarily because of the need to use some moderately expensive
>concentration monitoring instruments and sensors at several locations
>within the chamber. And to construct a chamber, for that matter. Quite
>doable though, and for less than $5,000 according to my calculations.
>Which could be the biggest problem of all. Anybody got 5 grand laying
>around they want to donate? 🙂

Perhaps rather hiring a lab to do it? They would have the equipment and
the safety procedures in place plus access to the HCN.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:09 PDT 1996
Article: 47246 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s crocodile tears
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:41:24 GMT
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:19:48 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[re: the Zuendel trials

>>>> It reads to me like the issue is the finding of the jury not the death
>>>>penalty.

>>>That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly published
>>>lies – in my book, that makes him a liar 🙂

>> You need to learn something, unless Canadian juries are different.

>> The state of mind can not be determined by a jury.

>O, fer sure! That’s why juries can never find anyone not guilty by
>reason of insanity. That’s why murder prosecutions only ever have to
>establish means and opportunity and never motive.

One, not too many states have that plea. Two, they judge what the
experts say about the person, not the person. Three, if the jury did
they would not need the experts.

>> They judged self avowed experts not the evidence.

>Empty assertion.

You appear to have never paid attention to such a trial.

>> No primary evidence was presented.

>Ignorant assertion. Evidence was presented which convinced the jury
>that Zuendel was a liar.

Had violated that law because the experts convinced them of something.
Certainly there is no way said experts could have demonstrated
“knowingly” published false news without introducing evidence of his
prior knowledge of that truth. That was not done.

>> Of course no one accused Canada of having justice.

>Flame bait.

So? It is only Canada.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:10 PDT 1996
Article: 47255 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:15:23 GMT
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (tom moran) writes:

>> What about the ADL rabbi who said, “Especially after the
>> Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>> Jews”. Some of these Christians are just little kids.
>>
>> Evil little Christian Children.

> The answer is a simple one although a hate filled bigot like you might not
>understand it. Anti-Semitism is taught.

Is? You do have some present tense examples, do you not? Of course
not.

One of the institutions that taught is has
>been the Christian churches. One of the prime teachers over the years has been
>the Catholic church. This is not my opinion, it is the result of debates within the
>Catholic church initiated by Pope John XXIII and accepted by subsequent pontiffs
>including the present one.

And that was SOLEY over the common teaching of a distortion of dogma.
The details of it would be beyond you. The closest you might be able to
grasp is, is there guilt for doing what is required?

> In the United States, the teaching of anti-Semitism was largely a function
>of religion (ever hear of Father Coughlin?).

Ranks right up there with Cotton Mather and just as dead. So much for
“is” taught.

I realize that a jerk like you might find
>this hard to understand, but Jews don’t particularly appreciate a lying, cowardly
>hate-monger like you wholesaling your garbage.

Then you folks should have chosen another country to come to. But then
we do have a tradition of taking in starving, huddled masses.

> It is not all religion or even all religious people. To be blunt L’il Tommy I
>grew up in neighborhood that was half-Catholic and went to a Catholic university
>(they gave me a full scholarship).

Now that is very solid proof of present day anti-semitism being taught
by the RC church. What did they do? Make you wear a tag saying TOKEN
on it?

In all that time I can never recall meeting as
>blatent a Jew-hater as you.

But I am certain you met many at the university that gave you a full
scholarship.

> So there is a real question, L’il Tommy: where did you learn your hate?

Are you suggesting he should become a Catholic in order to lose it?

> And, you gutless chunk of putrid malice, please don’t even entertain
>doubts for a nanosecond. You are an anti-Semite. Period.

But then I fail to see how pointing out that a Rebbe equates Christians
with Nazis is a matter of hate. There can be no other basis for his pea
brained statement than that assumption.

Can you say, bigot? Can you say, hatemonger? Can you say, Jewish,
bigotted hatemonger?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:11 PDT 1996
Article: 47257 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:11:38 GMT
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>[A user somewhere had rudely interrupted]

>>[email protected] (Nele) wrote:

>>>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts with
>>>quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie to forbid
>>>him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the point that I do not
>>>open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure that it is again one
>>>of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing so, I was quite interested
>>>in his contributions. But now… I wonder whether other people have come too
>>>to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make everybody ignore him?

>[snip]

>Carry on folks.

>ZOGBOT

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

FATBOT

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:11 PDT 1996
Article: 47264 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Sobran – Israel’s “Amen Corner” OWNS Press, White House, Congress
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:49:47 GMT
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>I wrote:
>>
>> William F. Buckley himself openly identified Mr. Sobran as an
>> anti-Semite after years of friendship and collaboration.
>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Henry Ayre ([email protected]) whines:
>>
>> Yes, one’s affiliations and loyalties are fragile and up for
>> instant review when one hobnobs with the emotionally unstable.
>>
>>So, Mr. Ayre thinks that William F. Buckley is “emotionally unstable!”
>>It is easy for him to make such a claim as he is just as ignorant of
>>psychology as he is of history.
>>
>>
>> Joseph Sobran’s most enduring and enlightening statement will
>> certainly be, “An anti-Semite is a person hated by the Jews.”
>>
>>I think that when a person hates Jews, it is only fair if Jews are
>>allowed to hate him back!
>>
>>But that does not explain why non-Jews like William Buckley agree that
>>Sobran hates Jews.
>>
>>
>> And we always thought it was the reverse! H. Ayre.
>>
>>”…we have always thought…” Mr. Ayre’s posts have always
>>demonstrated that he cannot think at all!
>>
>>–
>>Harry Katz

> William F. Buckley (Billy the Buckler) once wrote nasty things
>that Pat Buchanan was “anti-Semitic”. Buchanan being the one who
>applied the “Amen corner” to the subject of Israel.

As a matter of interest in preserving the facts, the folks who try to
use that against him convert it to a declarative sentence when he was
asking a question as in “Who but Israel and then amen corner is calling
for war against Iraq?”

But then we know from Sobran’s recounting of statements that can be made
in Israel about Israeli control of the US media can not be made here
without being called antisemitic at best.

As far as I know
>Buckley never offered any proof. Does he offer any proof Sobrans is?
>Can you Mr.Katz, make a case that either is “anti-Semitic”? Barring
>this, we have to assume that anyone whosoever dubs someone as
>”anti-Semitic” finds that to be sufficient in itself and would expect
>anyone else to follow.

A statement that is true by inspection.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:12 PDT 1996
Article: 47268 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:37:35 GMT
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>> Poor me. I just don’t have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>> the subject. Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>> people you folks can get to in an instant?

> Consider using a better brand of deodorant.

Consider reviewing the Pennsylvania Bar ethical standards.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:13 PDT 1996
Article: 47269 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘You see, they are bringing children now’
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:07:07 GMT
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>Marty Kelley wrote:

>[snip]

>> What is unexplainable about heat being given off when a room full of
>> just-killed people is opened? Note that Boeck does _not_ say that the
>> heat was given off by the HCN gass; rather, it’s reasonable to infer that
>> the heat was from the victims’ bodies.

>According to Tauber, in L.Keller 1 of Krema II:

>”…We found heaps of naked bodies, doubled up. They were pinkish, and in
>places red. Some were covered with greenish marks and saliva ran from
>their mouths. Others were bleeding from the nose. There was excrement on
>many of them I remember that a great many had their eyes open and were
>hanging on to one another The bodies were most crushed around the door. By
>contrast, there were less around the wire mesh columns. ^The location of
>the bodies indicated that people had tried to get away from the columns
>and get to the door. It was very hot in the gas chamber and so suffocating
>as to be unbearable…” (_Technique_. p.489.)

>This gassing of 1,526 (out of 2,000) Jews probably took place on March 14,
>1943 (Ibid.). L.Keller 1 had an area of 210 sq m (504 cu m). I would
>imagine packing 1,526 victims into this space (~7.3 victims/sq m [~3 cu
>m/victim])

0.33 M^3/fantasy

could cause the gas chamber to get hot and stuffy. Especially
>if the SS waited a bit before they gassed them.

Rather your “math” indicates the absudity of the story. Ignoring for
the moment that 7.3/M^2 is close enough to impossible to be impossible,
we note the story requires them to have moved to try to get away from
the columns. Even though packed so closely they could not have moved
they did move.

Even though packed so closely it is unclear how they knew what to move
away from or how, they did.

You would think no one had ever been in a packed elevator in their
lives.

150 lbs /2.2 = 68 kg = 68 liters = 68,000 cc =
(68,000 cm^3)^ 1/3 = 40 cm cube (excluding 2 liters of lung volume)
=15.7 inch cube

504 M^3 /1526 = 0.33 M^3 = 69 cm cube

0.58 ratio

Quite a packing factor there even as a liquid. Of course if everyone
assumes fetal position while they are stacked up …

I am certainly the good Dr. Keren can make a few comments upon such a
packing factor … without handwaving even if he chooses to. But he
will not do so with standing people.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 47273 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Gas Chamber at Dachau
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:38:34 GMT
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran
>aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>> Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>>older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
>>accounts that are currently written in stone.

>> Richard Widmann is this weeks choice for the ‘Tom Moran
>>Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithificationer Award’.

>

It can be treated.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:14 PDT 1996
Article: 47274 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:35:44 GMT
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>>
>>>>>Matt, the holocaust is historical fact; just because it gives your
>>>>>political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>>>>>happened will make it so.
>>
>>There is no such thing as historical ‘fact’.

>Andrew Johnson was the 17th president of the United States is an
>historical fact.

And Andrew Jackson was the 7th president. Have you ever considered the
coincidence?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:15 PDT 1996
Article: 47280 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Monty Python strikes again
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:51:12 GMT
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Wouldnm’t it scan better as “I’m a Giwer troll and I’m a jerk…”
>> >
>> >Otherwise, ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!!!!! A real keeper!
>> >
>> >Hugs,
>> >Sara
>>
>> >–
>> >The only power available to you lies in your submission.
>> > Pete Townshend
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: When I said it

>blah blah blah

>Now now, Matt. No need to be jealous.

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47291 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:07:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes…
>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>>>>McFee) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>>>>>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts
>>>>other
>>>>>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer’s family and
>>>>>son, was a concoction on *his* part. In other words, he lied through his
>>>>>teeth. (Oh yes–I still have the proof.)
>>>>
>>>>Sorry to disappoint you Gord, but I have received e-mails from individuals
>>>>other than Giwer confirming that his son was harrassed by Marduk. Since I
>>>>keep the source and verbatim content of e-mails private, I cannot say
>>>>more.
>>
>>> 1. Did we ever figure out who Marduk is?
>>
>> You in particular encouraged the holohugging pig.

> Provide the post, please.

>>> 2. Did you notice that it was *one* letter than Giwer Jr. received
>>> (assuming it was not forged in house as has been suggested but no
>>> evidence has been presented for) and that every poster in this
>>> newsgroup sans Giwer who commented on the mailing immediately denounced
>>> it.
>>
>> Who said “ONE” and how did you know that? I never posted that. It is
>>very curious that you would claim knowledge of details that I did not
>>post. May I ask how you know these details?

> OK, I admit it. I’m Gord McFee…

>> Of course I can not ask that question. It is improper or some such.
>>
>>> So, if you consider one letter to Giwer Jr. to be harassment,
>>
>> Just how did you know there was only one without being a participant in
>>it? What is your point in making this all up? BTW: As we all know he
>>is not a Jr. So why do you make this up?

> Matt Giwer the father
> Matt Giwer the son

> It is a reasonable shorthand to call him Junior. I have no idea what
> either’s middle names are (nor do I really care.)

>>then
>>> maybe he was harassed. If you agree with Giwer’s assertion that that
>>> letter stains all of the “holohuggers” in this newsgroup then you would
>>> be as looney as he is.
>>
>> Someone just might be suspicious with your knowledge of what was never
>>posted but then that would be antisemitic or some such, would it not?

> Evidence that “he” is looney. So Ehrlich, what do you think?

>>> I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.
>>
>> I know your intimate knowledge of the exact events makes you complicite
>>in it.

> Giwer went this route with McFee once. All it did was make Giwer look
> stupid. One has to wonder why he is going this route again…

> /re-enter killfile mode {sheesh}

> daniel david mittleman
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:17 PDT 1996
Article: 47292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!bertha.pyramid.com!olivea!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:31:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>>Curtis) writes:

>>>>family harrassed through this board. It is a disgrace.
>>>
>>>There is NO ONE I’m aware of who has harrassed your family on this
>>>board. Oh! You learned this game from Giwer, eh, Ehrlich606?
>>>
>>>

>>Giwer’s family _was_ harrassed.

>Indeed. By Giwer himself.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question: How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:13:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (SF924) wrote:
>>
>> >I have one final question for the revisionists and frankly one which was
>> >prompted by something which I came accross on the Zundelsite. It was an
>> >explanation of “What is National Socialism”. A similar explanation
>> >appears in the Stromfront Website. Mr Zundel, for example, claims to be
>> >a National Socialist and many revisionists on this page have espoused
>> >admiration for Hitler.
>>
>> >Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>> >it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>> >Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle. In
>> >this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>> >Socialist philosophy, is the highest
>> >embodiment of the human form, and at the other end is the Jewish race. A
>> >number of lesser races are in between.
>>
>> You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>> further.
>>
>> I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>> everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.

>I AM RIGHT! I AM GIWER! Proof is irrelevant. Documentation is irrelevant.
>Reasons are irrelevant. You will be a-spam-inated.

What you have attempted to do is set up a link between me and Stormfront
and then attack what Stormfront says as though I were saying it.

As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
Hitler on that subject. It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
work. It is race neutral.

Now just what is it you think you are doing save attacking your own
strawman?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47299 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:50:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:52:56 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
>> implying that we is observant?” (Matt Giwer)

>Mr. McVay, I am shocked. Here you are posting “raw” Giwerian without the
>obligatory translation. Shame! Do you really think everyone in this
>newsgroup understands Giwerian-Trollish as well as you do? Have a heart,
>sir!

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:29:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 11:31:39 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>> >I don’t understand what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>>
>> It does not mean testimony. It that any better?

> But, given your own statements that does not cover the territory. You
>have told us that some poor German soldier that just happened to murder American
>soldiers in cold blood was beaten with rifle butts (note plural), pistol butts (note
>plural), and pistol barrels (note plural). Reports of he medical examinations of the
>person (which most people I know consider fairly convincing evidence) showed
>that the person sustained no injuries,

> `All you have posted is the unsworn statement of that nazi. What
>”physical evidence” please be specific. Demonstrate what the reliable evidence
>was for your assertion.

I will completely agree that my source of this is valueless and that
your sources for the gassing are valueless.

What do you think you are accomplishing with this line of attack?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47302 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 00:22:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 7:25:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>>To be more precise, what I meant here was this: because of its arguable
>>roots in neo_Nazism, the attitude of people towards revisionism is that to
>>pursue it is to pursue a neo_Nazi agenda. Obviously, I don’t think that
>>is so. When I reference *death* or *fear* in that regard, I mean the
>>attitude, which I feel lies under the surface among many, that to endorse
>>a revisionist stance is to set _all_ of us up for a fascist, racist,
>>dictatorship. I do not believe that. I cannot accept that.
>
>Whatever the roots of the revisionist poistion, a revisionist stance must
>make some account of the persistence of belief in the Holocaust (or one
>of its component parts). It’s simply a necessary part of the discourse. That
>their solution must be in a gigantic conspiracy, or taking the Holocaust on
>as a part of the fundamental ideology of the West, but more specifically, of
>Jews, is an index of their motives. So when you say:
>
>>Nor do I think that studying the Holocaust has a whole lot to do with a
>>sense of victimhood, persecution, of someone’s Jewishness. Look at me:
>>[ . . . . ] It is a fascinating area in modern history, period.
>
>I can’t help but feel as if I didn’t explain myself well the first time.
>Revisionists, many here on a.r., describe the Holocaust as a psychological
>condition that Jews (or guilt-ridden liberals) have been afflicted themselves
>with. (And by the way, this masterpiece of slander is implicit in every
>mention of “holohugger”– no matter what the neologism’s etymological root
>is.)

The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
guilt to explain. All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.

It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media. In some
countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.

I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
inspection.

The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be. The
“explanations” the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
happening again, are obviously transparent and false.

What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done. Blood
money for Israel is another suggestion. However at this point the
reasons suggested are speculation.

Consider the difference in Russia. They trot out their war heroes in
November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
year. But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
war.

However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war. It
is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
the loss of Texas and California.

This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature. As I
have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
day he died.

There is something very, very wrong with this behavior. It needs help,
not encouragement.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The professor and his eyewitnesses
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 3:03:25 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> [email protected] (TokRse) wrote:
>>
>> >I know what the truth-bashers have to say. They DENY that they ever
>> >claimed that 4,000,000 died at Auschwitz. Don’t you know, they ALWAYS
>> >claimed the number was 3,500,000 – 4,500,000 – Kogon
>> >or was it 1.2 million to 2.5 million- Weiss
>> >or was it 1 to 2.5 million -Encyclopedia Judaica
>> >or was it 2.5 million – yes it must have been 2.5 million – Bauer
>> >no no it was 2 million – Poliakoff, Dawidowicz, Gilbert and Billing
>> >or was it 1 million, Hilberg and Crankshaw
>> >
>> >no no it is 1,095,190 (surprising no decimals) – Piper
>> >and what of Pressac?
>>
>> There are a lot more. Check out “BEHOLD THE LIE” the next time it
>> is posted for a more complete listing, but not the entire account by
>> any means.

>And be sure to check out my follow up repsonse to it as well. (You know,
>the one where I write: “Behold the Liar – Read a Moranic(tm) re-post by
>Moran!”)

Another example of the reasoned debate the exterminationists claim they
want to conduct.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 07:19:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 12:21:52 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: Considering my years I feel the fields are rather minor accomplishment.

>That’s not the issue, in case you hadn’t noticed. This all started when
>you said that Raul Hilberg (who, by the way, is older than you are) was
>unqualified to write a history of the Holocaust because his Ph. D. is in
>Government, not History. If he’s not qualified in history, what makes
>you qualified in chemistry, physiology, law, history, or how to walk and
>chew gum at the same time?

I said nothing about his qualifications to write history. I stated that
he was not a historian. Therefore he does not count on a list of
“historians” who agree on the holocaust gassing. I also noted that the
chair was a reward for his political astuteness in upholding the legend.
And political astuteness is what one would expect from a person with his
credentials.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:08:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 3:11:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Mt. Grynspan, sir.

You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.

Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.

You have also stated you know how to deal with me.

The following is a challenge.

DO SO.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:13:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 3:16:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>> [A user somewhere had rudely interrupted]
>>
>> >[email protected] (Nele) wrote:
>>
>> >>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts with
>> >>quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie to forbid
>> >>him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the point that I do not
>> >>open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure that it is again one
>> >>of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing so, I was quite interested
>> >>in his contributions. But now… I wonder whether other people have come too
>> >>to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make everybody ignore him?
>>
>> [snip]
>>

>He does that, and more. When I first began participating in this NG I
>approached Mr. Giwer with an honest curiosity toward his views, informing
>him fully about my natural bias against those unorthodox. He responded by
>attacking my character, his only position being that if I did not agree
>with him that I was then decietful, ignorant and unworthy of his attention.

That of course is a lie that belies your intention in the approach,
dumbbroad.

>If there are any of you left out there who still cling to the idea that
>Giwer HIMSELF believes that his efforts are intended to correct and redirect
>historical scholarship of the Nazi era, then let me see if this will put
>that notion to rest once and for all (in his own words, of course:)

>>
>> And I have never pretended to participate in the discussion of
>> revising the orthodox view of the holocaust in the manner of a
>> research scholar.
>>

>-Posted by Matt Giwer to alt.revisionism on May 23rd, 1996

>His only intention is to irritate and annoy. Consider yourself one of his
>many successes. You’re in good company 😉

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:32:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

>>> Hey, Keren! Where is your story…

>>>As this repetitious nonsense in no way addresses my previous posts,
>>>I take it that Mr. Giwer cannot defend himself from my charges that
>>>he lies and tries to conceal it with name-calling.

>> The following is no namecalling. And, as I noted, when I am attacked I
>>will attack your precious holocaust. If you have a problem with that,
>>the answer is in your hands.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>[typical gutless Giwer evasion deleted]

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:46:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:48:37 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>writes:

>>e: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:36:59 GMT
>>
>> Revisited shall we say.
>>
>> I was given the explanation for her being alive to leave Auschwitz
>was
>>that she was 15 and that everyone under that age was exterminated
>>immediately. Any record of anyone younger than that available?

>The film of the Auschwitz liberation has a clip showing some babies in
>prams as well as an adorable little boy about two feet tall in prison
>garb. I saw a TV interview of the guy. He cried a lot.

I thought the story was nonsense. Thanks for the backup.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lies and Damn Lies
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:20:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Alexander Baron writes:

># I have now done further research on this and there were definitely
># human skin artifacts.

>There you go. Now Giwer has to call Baron a holohugger.

>BTW, Koch went to prison for murdering German inmates, didn’t
>she? Her husband, as I recall, was executed by the SS for theft.

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47336 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:25:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:28:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

># It would be interesting to know the source of the “blue cubes”
># (Erco?). Degesch literature describes only pellets and discs,
># no cubes, no blue.

>The book often quoted here (by Dr. Gerhard Peters, General Manager
>of Degesch) mentions the Erco carrier (the small cubes), and shows
>a photograph of a Degesch manufactured can with the Erco cubes
>in it (as well as cans with the two other carriers you mentioned).

>What, exactly, do you mean by “Degesch literature”? Are we to
>understand you have studied everything they ever published?

Degesh publication means exactly that, the publications of Degesh and
nothing else.

Grow up, Danny boy, you have a long way to go.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:26 PDT 1996
Article: 47338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denier’s True Colours
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:30:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:33:01 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu said:

>> I’ve search ‘spam’ in my dictionnary, not there… However the best I
>>can unders-
>> tand his statement, he claim that he will continue to defend himsel as
>>far
>> as people attack him, and that he can ‘get down to cases on his terms’,
>> something I think I understand as ‘driving the conference the way he
>>want’.
>> I never eared this expression before, however isn’t Jamie McCarthy who
>>was
>> refering to alt.revisionism as ‘our’ conference? (yours)
>> Yes, he’s ‘controlling’ this newsgroup in a certain sense, due to his
>>large
>> output. What do you think, that alt.revisionism is your exclusive baby?

>The word “spam” means to flood a newsgroup with dozens of off-topic and
>irrelevant posts each and every day. That is what Giwer has been doing
>lately, since the idiocy of his arguments has been exposed for all to see.
>What he of course doesn’t realize is that he is a third-string spammer at
>best, many much better ones having occupied this newsgroup in the past,
>until they ran away and hid.

>This has nothing to do with censorship. It has everything to do with common
>decency, and respecting a Usenet News tradition that has been around for a
>long time. Neither of these, especially common decency, is known to Giwer.

>[rest deleted]

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:27 PDT 1996
Article: 47343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:18:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Rich Graves)
>said:

>>>Name one Jewish group attempting to silence Mr. Giwer. You can’t
>>>because no one is trying to silence him. I suggest you learn the facts
>>>before making knee-jerk PC anti-PC statements. The new PC seems to be
>>>to accuse anyone who expresses their opposition to bigotry and ignorance
>>>of being PC. I suggest reading alt.revisionism before jumping to
>>>conclusions.

>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo “Autocyberretromoderationbot” Gonzalez to
>>your killfile.

>Yeah, he’s a loon.

>> http://www.paranoia.com/~ricardo/faq.html

>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to speak
>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>I know, I know, but keep it quiet. 🙂

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47347 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Program
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:21:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected].bpa.arizona.edu>
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[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Richard J. Green) writes…
>>
>>McFee = McVay
>>McVay = Finstein
>>Green != Graves
>>Ehrlich != Sommer
>>Ehrlich != Thomas
>>Thomas = Hunt
>>Hunt = Agathist
>>Hunt ?= Smith
>>Ostrov = McCarthy
>>Gannon = Maynard
>>Les’s RH = Sylvie
>>Widmann = ?
>>Huber != Huber
>>Morrison = Morriglu_the_Crook_smoking marijuana in Microsoft Basement
>>Morrison != Morris
>>Lewis != McVay
>>Curtis != Stein
>>WASPnot = HistoryNOT
>>WASPnot = Kaus
>>Kaus = WACKYWATCH
>>Greenley != Green

> You missed a few:

> McFee ?= Marduk
> Kelley != Mittleman
> Kelley != Kelly
> Moran = Moron
> Huber = Huber = Huber = Huber = Huber
> Mortie = Miltie
> J. McCarthy != T. McCarthy
> Giwer != genius
> Al Gentile != fictional
> daniel david mittleman
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47348 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Gerstein and reliability of sources
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:25:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>Responding to <[email protected]> from
>[email protected]:

>Matt, I’m touched that you went to the trouble of using a new
>user ID to get past my killfile,

I am also touched that you are a lying asshole but let us get down to
cases despite you inability to master the killfile like YEF.

but you’re still boring, still
>dishonest, and still stupid, so this one goes into the killfile
>as well.

>Most of your points are pointless and clueless, so dumb that you
>are obviously staying in your customary troll mode, arguing
>nonsense even you can’t believe yourself. No doubt Ehrlich606
>will find your post incisive and enlightening. I will, however,
>confine myself to addressing one item.

You are not bright enough to do so.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47349 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who controls the troll?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:49:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:51:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken
>McVay OBC) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>>Amazing isn’t it?! Well, not really. You see, McFeestein thinks *he*
>>>controls the troll – but the truth is *I* have the supreme power. Did

>>Oh for Pete’s sake! Finstenov controls the troll this week –
>>McFeestein can’t get his decoder ring working, so he _can’t_
>>control _both_ the troll and Leslie at the same time… I
>>thought we had this straight, Hilary – this week, Finstenov
>>gets the troll, next week Stein gets him, and YOU can have him
>>the following week, and not a moment sooner.

>Aw, gee, Chief you always spoil all my fun! And it’s really not fair
>that I _always_ have to change _my_ schedule just because McFeestein
>can’t get his decoder ring working. He’s the one who blows the money
>you send him for lessons! Why should I have to pay?! I think this is
>a clearcut case of harrassment. Once or twice, I could overlook – but
>this has been going on for months now. And I am going to bring this
>up at the next meeting of ZOGWESCAN. I’ve read the Riot Act, and I
>have rights, too, you know.

>P.S. pls. fwd to abmg. – I can’t get there from here :>)

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

Another example of the kind of debate the holohuggers want to conduct.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47355 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!news2.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!con-nntp-gw!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudenko: Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:29:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 7:32:14 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article , [email protected]
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Rudenko is examining Alfred Rosenberg]
>>>
>>> Rudenko: *Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued
>war
>>> against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of
>the
>>> Soviet Union, the extermination and enslavement of her people, and the
>>> disarmament of the country? Answer briefly.*
>>>
>>> Rosenberg: *No.*
>>>
>>> Rudenko: *You deny it? All right. Let us turn to a new document.*
>>>
>>> source: American Heritage, August 1962, p. 69 (precis of Francis
>Biddle’s
>>> memoirs)
>>
>>And? Are you suggesting that the Hitlerites _didn’t_ invade the Soviet
>>Union for the expressed purpose of disarming and plundering the country
>>and killing and enslaving its people? Answer briefly.
>>
>>
>There are times when the density of your mind is simply amazing. The
>above exchange is not about giving you an excuse to show off your scanner.
> The above exchange demonstrates (1) Rudenko’s incompetence as a
>prosecutor, (2) Rudenko’s laughable inability to adjust to something other
>than a show trial, and (3) an example of a stupid question (hint: note how
>it is structured).

>As far as answering briefly is concerned, you might want to take your own
>advice. Brevity is the soul of wit.

Not wit, lingerie.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:31 PDT 1996
Article: 47372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:07:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 5:10:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>>McFee) writes:

>>>All alone in the world. Despised by all. No one to bully around.
>>Bitter
>>>at the past and terrified of the future. So jealous of “normal” people.
>>>Knowing that the only ones who accept him are the anonymous Nazi denier
>>>scum. Hating the real world, where people have at least a shred of
>>humanity
>>>and loathing the fact that he has none.
>>>
>>>Pathetic beyond words.

>>Get a grip, Gord.

>I *have* a grip, Mr. Ehrlich, a very good grip. Perhaps you should examine
>the mirror.

>Why have you taken so to defending Giwer? Surely a man of your wisdom does
>not align himself in Giwer’s camp? Or was Mr. Curtis right about you?

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:05:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 5:08:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>Nothing, proving my point that I control him and he has lost.

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>>>said:

>>>>
>>>>[email protected] writes:
>>>>
>>>># Relevant, def. supports holohugger PNE fixation.
>>>>
>>>>No, relevant with regard to the rate of evaporation
>>>>of HCN from Zyklon. Seems your estimate was off by a
>>>>factor of 16 or so.

>>>About the same factor by which he has over-estimated his IQ, wouldn’t you
>>>say?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:14:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 4:17:59 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >This
>> >message indicates that you believe Mr. McCarthy has personally harrassed
>> >your family. Please post proof or retract this claim.
>>
>> Everything was posted at the time it happened.

>In other words, he has no proof.

>If he did, he’d post DejaNews URLs.

It happened, child. It was discussed here at the time. The harrassment
was encouraged by the holohuggers. You encouraged it.

>> There were also numerous
>> posts on the order of “it couldn’t happen to a nicer guy” in
>> alt.revisionism. There is no question of that.

>In other words, failing to sympathize with Giwer (awwwww, poor baby,
>someone flamed his son in e-mail) makes us “complicite” in the crime
>(to use his word: <[email protected]>).

I state what happened only to point out what kind of people holohuggers
really are. They are very petty and vindictive people.

>> It is what holohuggers are like. Wannabe JDL terrorists.

>This quote seems apropos:

> [Matt Giwer’s] terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not
> personalities. I’d support that aim regardless of who was
> promoting it.
>
> What [Giwer] and others are demanding, not asking for, is a forum
> where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.
>
> – [email protected], June 23rd, 1996

>But then, I’m a wannabe JDL terrorist, so what do I know.

At least you agree the JDL is a terrorist organization.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:01:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 6:04:38 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg] [Sat 29 Jun 96 >16:48][Sun 30 Jun 96 11:32][0]*>

> mnc> claim that their existence was challenged. Of course, if people
> mnc> at that level had been interested in the “only following orders”
> mnc> defense they would have claimed an order from Hitler himself,
> mnc> that very curious by its absense order.

> mnc> I am surprised to see you playing the game of trying to
> mnc> cover the issue with a holohugger type post.

>I’d like to pay more than passing attention to your posting but I
>really *AM* up to my yin-yan in work! 4th quarter is coming up fast
>and there’s nobody else qualified to do the work. In the meantime,
>I’ve just had a quadrupling of inbound message volumes and 2 main
>distribution nodes down.

>So – I’ll put it simply:

>The defendants did what any defendant does – deny, deny, deny.

>Taking their word for it is equivalent to letting Ted Bundy walk
>because he says “I didn’t do it and my mommy believes me.”

>This doesn’t take rocket science.

>No more needs to be said on this nonsensical claim of disbelief.

Would not the innocent say the same thing? Particularly when there was
no physical or forensic evidence of gassing introduced.

>Now – a quick query to you (no sidestepping).

>If the defendants were contesting the gassings in 1946, why are you
>claiming that the gassing story came out in the 50’s and 60’s?

I am not making that claim. I have said it was codified in those years
with the elimination of steaming, electrocution and vacuum chambers and
with the elimination of gas chambers in Germany. All of those and more
had to be done AFTER all those things were established as true in 1946.

>In fact, why were you willing (other than for the obvious troll
>value) to use Al Gentile’s claim that the gassing business came out
>in the mid-forties?

The value of the AG messages was to point out what people are saying now
was also known then, that there were no gas chambers in Germany despite
the IMT charges that there were, and that all of the claims of them came
>from Russia which not not permit anyone else to investigate. It
supports what is known now, that the entire gassing story came from
Russia.

>Please try to be consistent.

You need to follow the conference more closely than you can with the
work load you have now.

>And remember the story of the Local Champion.

You need to remind me of more than that.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 09:08:34 PDT 1996
Article: 47388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2: Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 06:34:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 1:38:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (SF924) wrote:

>Mr. Giwer:

>Have you absolutely no intellectual honesty. Of course, the revisionist
>position is grounded upon a belief in an all powerful conspiracy and hoax
>perpetrated by the Jews and Zionists. I can read.

You started with a false pretense of asking an honest question and
immediately closed the loop with the presentation of dogma.

Please, do not lecture me on intellectual honesty. You are hardly the
source of same.

And obviously you can not read, nor can you master quoting in your
responses. There is no cause for any conspiracy, which means in secret,
as everything that happens is in public.

> Mr. Zundel’s postings and website make that entirely clear. According
>to Mr. Zundel, the German people and nation are being blood libeled by
>Jews. Mr. Zundel refers to this as extortion, plain and simple. The gas
>chamber story according to Mr. Zundel, was created by a group of money
>grubbing Jews to keep the German people in eternal guilt and to extort
>money. Even Mr. Smith, with his smooth rhetoric and calming demeanor
>always comes back to this basic theme, and like you, tries to minimize
>the actions of the Hitler regime.

Here is a real news flash for you. Pay real close attention and read
real careful now.

I am not Zundel. I am not Smith.

Repeat that several times.

If that registers on your pea brain lets move on.

They are speculating on the cause for the cause of the entire contrary
to human nature celebration of defeat and loss.

>And I cannot understand why, your complete dodging of my “How would Hitler
>view Revisionism” question notwithstanding.

Excuse me. This time I will take it seriously. I don’t have the
slighest idea. It that a good enough answer?

Naziism is an
>exterminationalist philosophy.

That only indicates you are completely ignorant of it. That is also not
surprising.

The Aryan is the gem of the earth, the
>Jew is Lucifer incarnate and must be destroyed.

As another example of ignorance there were Darwinian overtones but no
religious overtones to any of the publically known speeches.

You act like there is
>something to be ashamed of in wanting to kill Jews and wipe them off the
>face of the earth. Hitler referred to the Jews as a maggot on the body of
>the world. I’ve read Mein Kampf.

Congratulations for reading the entire friggin book. More likely your
read selected excerpts but let that pass. I find no religious overtones
in maggot. Your god may disagree.

> What do you do with maggots, lice, rats and other vermin, Mr Giwer. You
>exterminate them. It’s them or you. Kill ’em all I say.

Your hyperbole is ruling your lack of rationality on this subject.

But of course you celebrate the successful genocide of all the peoples
who dared to stand in the way of the Israelite genocidal maniacs who
stole the Promised Land carrying total extermination by the Ark before
them.

Genocide is a powerful religious theme. It was created by the
Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. And no one else.

>The Final Solution was the pinnacle of National Socialism. It was carried
>out by true believers, men and women of zeal, men and women of courage.
>Mr. Giwer, it takes incredible courage and self discipline to machine gun
>or gas a small child. It is not a fun assignment. Could you do it. I
>know I couldn’t, no matter how strong my beliefs. These people acted out
>of a sense of duty for their children and future generations.

Genocide by the sword was the creation of the Jews in any previous
incarnation you wish to address. They slaughtered the men, women, male
children and saved the female children who had not known man for their
own sex slaves which is perhaps the only thing that differentiates them
>from the Nazis in the popular view of Nazis. The Jews saved the little
girls for their own pederasty.

>Mr Giwer, these people weren’t animals or sickos or sadists. Most of them
>were normal, decent people. Some of them were the cream of German
>society.

That is nothing you can say about the genocidal Israelites.

>These people understood that the Final Solution would be a thankless job
>but they took it on in order to protect future generations from the
>eternal threat and to spare the need by future generations to undertake
>this obviously unpleasant task. And it was an unpleasant task. Many of
>these people had nervous breakdowns or became alcoholics. And nobody gave
>them a medal or any official recognition.

>And now you and your people come along, and further besmirch their work
>and great accomplishment for the greater good of mankind.

I only point out that the only known successful genocidal maniacs in
recorded history are the Jews.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest you read up on the history of
these people some day. You should start with the book of Joshua and
work forward. You will learn the people who you claim suffered did far
worse than happened to them.

=====

You opened this discussion with a loaded question and had a prepared
response. You ignored the first answer in order to give that prepared
resonse.

Now I invite you to frame a response in light of this post rather than
in terms of what you have prepared in your mind before you read this.

You will note that I have specifically avoided responding as you would
have me respond.

Please do not give me a canned response.

This is not a HS debaing club.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:44:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56934 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!news.PBI.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:18:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56934 alt.revisionism:47402

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard J. Green) said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Rich Graves wrote:

>>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo “Autocyberretromoderationbot” Gonzalez to
>>>your killfile.

>>Thanks.

>>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to speak
>>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>>But, I’m Gordon McFeee…

>You may be Gordon McFeee, but I’m Gord McFee and *I* control Giwer. He is
>my obedient little puppy.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:44:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56935 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:17:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56935 alt.revisionism:47403

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [email protected] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> When the message I respond to me contains an attack against me thus
>> >> >> deviating the from the serious debate that the holohuggers claim they
>> >> >> want then I will continue to respond in that manner.
>> >>
>> >> >Attacks such as calling a woman “fatbroad”?
>> >> >
>> >> >Hmmm… looks like a bit of Pot. Kettle. Black here, Mr. Giwer.
>> >>
>> >> That worked to instantly shut off her silly on me. So why not?
>>
>> >Well, if it works I guess it’s okay…you slimesucking piece of
>> >diatom excrement.
>>
>> Another example of the kind of debate the holohuggers claim they want to
>> conduct on alt.revisionism. Thank you. You are expressing your cause
>> for what is it worth.

>And anyone who read the entirety of the post would quickly realize
>in what context the comments were made.

>*sigh* No sense of humour, either. What a truly sad individual.

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:44:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56969 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!academ!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:27:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47415 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56969

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>[referring to gutless Giwer]

>>>He’s just lying as usual.

>Oops–away he runs again.

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Another gas chamber
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

>> Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
>>powdered cyanide.

>>”Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
>>dummy shower heads. In
>>the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control
>>inflow and outtake of
>>gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
>>generate the lethal smoke.
>>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ” IMT XXX
>>- p.470.

>> Amazing what you can find if you look around.

>> And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:44:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56970 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!academ!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:27:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47416 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56970

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>Giwer is afraid to receive e-mail from you. He can’t cope with it.

>Runs away again. I have, as usual, defeated him.

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Another gas chamber
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

>> Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
>>powdered cyanide.

>>”Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
>>dummy shower heads. In
>>the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control
>>inflow and outtake of
>>gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
>>generate the lethal smoke.
>>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ” IMT XXX
>>- p.470.

>> Amazing what you can find if you look around.

>> And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:57:32 PDT 1996
Article: 11420 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 10:14:50 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Robert Firth) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> And then some hothead started shooting over Ft. Sumter. Lincoln
>>responded with a Naval blockade of the Confederacy and the battle lines
>>were drawn.

>I beg your pardon. The Union had promised not to resupply
>Fort Sumter. The Confederacy had this promise in writing
>from Seward and, later, in a telegram from Lincoln. Only
>when it was clear that this promise would be broken did the
>Confederacy demand that Fort Sumter surrender or be bombarded.

Thank you very much. I missed that detail although I would still
conclude it was a hothead. They had plenty of support in the North and
could have negotiated a better resolution. Simply publicizing the
broken promises would have strengthened the hand of Lincoln’s
opposition.

>As FDR did later to the Japanese, the Lincoln administration
>had managed to lie, cheat, and manipulate their intended
>adversary into firing the first shot. If Lincoln did not
>intend war, why had he started mobilisation three months
>before the shots at Fort Sumter?

Another good point but I was unaware that raising an army had been
authorized.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47393 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:13:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 4:16:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Gord McFee) writes:
>
># I would agree that it was wrong to hang Streicher,
>
>While that may be debatable, it is clear that Streicher was
>one of the most revolting swines to walk the face of the Earth.

Strangely I would have taken you as the type who is against the death
penalty. Was I mistaken?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47411 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:48:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 12:51:38 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>DvdThomas wrote:
>>>>(3) Monitor diffusion accurately if done in a known volume chamber.
>>>
>>>How big is your chamber? How will you evacuate it.
>>
>>There would be no evacuation.

>What do you intend to do with a chamber full of toxic concentrations of
>HCN? What is your design for the chamber?

>>The intent is to determine the evaporation
>>and diffusion rates in a normal atmosphere. Chamber size depends on what
>>resources you have available. Larger is better, but results can be scaled
>>if care is taken.

>Tell me how you intend to scale the calculation; if you assume you know
>the functional form (presumably a linear combination of error
>functions), there is no point in doing the experiment.

>Your evaporation experiments might actually be feasible (however, Dr.
>Keren has already posted the results for experiments on actual Zyklon),
>your diffusion proposal is less convincing. What degreee of error are
>you willing to accept a factor of 10, 100? Do you have any idea what
>the systematic errors in such an experiment might be? (Hint: turbulence
>is not a closed problem). After you spend your $5000 [sic], will you
>have results that mean anything?

Perhaps the money would include hiring a REAL chemist who understands
physical chemistry to answer the questions you raise?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47430 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:52:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 10:54:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>writes:

>>
>>>The main challenge to the revisionist position is Occam’s Razor. I have
>>>yet to see a coherent answer to this challenge.
>>
>>>Perhaps you’d like to provide one.
>>
>> Occam’s razor, you mean the least number of hypothesis that will
>explain
>>events? Death from disease and towards the end starvation and probably
>>lack of water in most cases can adequately explain all the deaths without
>>the superfluous gas chambers being added.
>>
>>

>I mentioned Occam’s Razor a couple of months ago. I also mentioned the
>analogy of the perturbations of the Ptolemaic astronomy. The explanation
>that is the simplest, accords best with the documentation, demands the
>least special pleading, the least *interpretation*, will be the one the
>future will follow. I am not sure which one it will be, or perhaps it
>will be a hybrid, but I am sure that the future will regard our inability
>to achieve detachment in this area with some consternation.

It will seem first will have to come a realization that there really can
not be more than one story about what and how things happened. It has
to be realized that the explanations for so many occurances can not be
mutually exclusive. We can not have Birkenau carried out in secret and
right in front of thousands of people at the same time.

It is clearly not only that were are talking about the simplest
explanation but also that the present way to preserve the story piles
complexity on top of complexity as did the Ptolemaic solar system.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47431 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you know how stupid holohuggers are?
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:31:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 12:34:12 PM PDT 1996
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How stupid?

The Marduk, holohugging would-be telephone harrasser, has not stopped
making his pig noises during this holohugger’s harassing phone calls.
The latest was last night at 8:31 EDT.

That’s not the really stupid part. The really stupid part is that this
holohugger is harrassing the GTE Personal Secretary answering service.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47439 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:40:18 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Where are the captured vehicles?

>I don’t know. Possibly, they were destroyed; there were not
>many of them. Like the gas chambers in some of the camps,
>the SS may have destroyed them – a pretty easy thing to do.

>As to the vehicles used in the Mogilev gassing, the photographs
>show their serial numbers. I don’t know if they survived the war;
>the German Army lost a huge amount of equipment in the USSR.

Again a total lack of physical evidence. The pictures I have found on
Nizkor could be anything. There is nothing distinguishing them from any
truck.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 11:59:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: why would anyone care?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:40:21 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> May I suggest that Hitler was a victim of early onset Altheimer’s and
>>was a secret drooler since 1932. The only talent he had was making
>>speeches.
>>
>> Therefore he was completely innocent of anything he is charged with.
>>
>> Now tell me, what would be the difference were this true?
>>
>> Not a damn thing.

> Let’s turn the question around. Let’s assume you are correct, and
>every death was the result of mistreatment rather than active murder.
>Hitler and the rest of the Third Reich are dead. You can’t do them any
>good by providing evidence for an appeal. So tell me: why would you care
>if they were innocent or not? By the argument you seem to be suggesting
>here, you too are spending a lot of time on this for no constructive
>purpose.

I have told you many times. It is the people here that interest me.
They are like liberals, perhaps a variant of clintonhuggers.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 13:52:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47443 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:12:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:15:25 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># You do not even know how to play the game. The documents
># all clearly state the purpose. It is not like the one in 100,000
># documents that implies gassing.
>
>You still get an F. “Revisionists” say that documents don’t
>count. We have documents about the construction of the gas
>chambers and the gassings. “Revisionists” say they don’t count.
>
>You can’t say documents count for event X and not for event Y. No go.

You have documents of the construction of morgues and nothing else.

># Sorry but the pictures are of the bombings themselves. It
># is not you pictures of bodies dead from disease and starvation
># from the end of the war that are palmed off as proof of gassing
># during the war. The films are of the bombings themselves. You
># have no films of the gassings themselves.
>
>First, according to “revisionists”, films mean nothing; they
>can be fakes, and they say all photographic evidence to the
>Holocaust is a fake, so what gives?
>
>Second, there was a film I am aware of, taken during a gassing
>in Mogilev. I’ve seen some (unfortunately low-quality xerox
>copies) of stills from it.
>
>The rest of your article is meaningless; you provide no evidence
>stronger than what “revisionists” automatically dismiss when
>it is presented as evidence to the Holocaust.

Precisely, you dumb fuck, should you folks find the smoking gun tomorrow
you are laying the groundwork for dismissing it out of hand with this
line of reasoning.

># There are no gas chambers there.
>
>Shrug. Keep repeating that, like a lame-brained parrot. You’re bound
>to convince everybody if you repeat it enough times.

Get out of the institution and see what the real world is like some day.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 13:52:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Giwer!
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:02:25 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] whines:
>>
>>> Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies”
>>> not getting close this time?
>>
>>> …After being filled up to capacity the chambers were
>>> hermetically closed and steam was let in…
>>
>>>After Mr. Giwer tells us the Polish word that was mistranslated here
>>>as “steam!”
>>
>> You are the one who appears to know. So tell me. And while you are at
>>it tell me what word was mistranslated as boiler room and boilers.
>>While you are at it, the mistranslation of heremetically sealed also.

>Don’t forget “terracotta.”

>Hmm. I gave up too soon it seems. You might also note that the
>[snipped] excerpt from the IMT Blue Series, vol. XXXII is not
>eyewitness testimony. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the
>Blue Series would know that a volume number that high would not
>contain testimony of any kind.

>So how close was the author of the statement standing? At a rough
>guess, about 300 miles away.

>Got a clue yet?

First we had someone who was going to claim the correct translation was
exhaust while ignoring the rest of the words clearly pointing to
steaming.

Now we have you trying to start a different game.

Why do you folks never come out and plainly say what you want to say
instead of trying to start some kind of multimessage game?

Ans: In hopes the original subject will be so confused you can claim
anything you want to claim about it.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 13:52:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47446 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:14:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:16:58 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># But don’t blame _me_ that there were no gas chambers in Belarus,
># Ukraine, or the Baltics.

>The “Einsatzgruppen” did use “gaswagons” in the occupied USSR. There
>was also the gassing in Mogilev, supervised by Nebe and Dr. Widmann.

Where are the captured vehicles?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 13:52:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 03:24:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:11460 alt.revisionism:47462

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>Alexander Baron writes:

>>Because there are plenty of survivors who didn’t witness gassings or who
>>passed through the camps totally unaware of them.

>”The camps”? Which camps? There were plenty of camps where no gassings
>took place; there may be others where they took place on a small scale
>if at all (Dachau). One would expect most survivors of such camps to be
>”totally unaware” of gassings.

Actually it is quite the opposite. When people are living in close
proximity and when some of them are involved in anything there are no
secrets. In addition under such conditions there are dozens of
variations upon everything that occurs.

You have a very strange idea of human nature.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 13:52:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47464 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer finally realized this?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:18:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
>P. Stein) said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>
>>> It was quite enough to crack this conference wide open.
>>>
>>> Or have you not noticed all the new and old names that are back?

>> Well, Roberts came and went for a while and then came again before you
>>arrived. Baron comes and goes according to his legal schedule. (And both
>>of them are at the mercy of their ISP.)

>> As for the rest, they were too stupid to figure out they could post
>>anytime they pleased? They needed a 163 IQ genius to show them how to
>>post articles?

>> Why, one would almost think that you are implying you have entered
>>into some sort of conspiracy with them. You know, how to deal with the
>>Nizkorites.

>It is hard to believe that anyone would enter into a conspiracy with someone
>as loathsome as Giwer.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 15:10:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47472 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.wctc.net!news.new-york.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hope we all notice
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:18:35 GMT
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>
>> The folks complaining about appropriate posts and spamming and the like
>>are engaging in a debate on operating systems right here and completely
>>off topic.

>> But then, the holohuggers never manage to notice their own failings.

>It is very diffocult for normal people to notice their mistakes when they
>are assaulted on a daily basis by hundreds of Giwer mistakes.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 16:21:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47486 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 20:41:34 GMT
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>> It is what holohuggers are like. Wannabe JDL terrorists.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 18:44:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47521 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL CHRISTIAN CHILDREN
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:21:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>
> ADL rabbi said,

> “Especially after the Holocaust, Christians have no right to
>talk about a mission to the Jews”.

>therefore, evil little Christian children also.

Or, more succinctly, all Christians are Nazis according to this idiot.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:42:58 PDT 1996
Article: 47541 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:32:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>: > What about the ADL rabbi who said, “Especially after the
>: >Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>: >Jews”. Some of these Christians are just little kids.
>:
>: > Evil little Christian Children.
>:
>: In the minds of the non-goy all Christians are Nazis. There is no other
>: assumption that could lead to the statement.

>Would somebody like to file this away against the next time Giwer asks
>for proof that he’s an antisemite?

Be certain to file away the rabbi’s statement also rather than the usual
censorship job that is done here and at Nizkor. It is clear that he is
putting the responsibility for his personal holocaust upon the shoulders
of Christians in the US.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:42:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47542 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:00:37 GMT
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>”Afternoon Session: Goering, Ribbontropm and Hess had a great laugh over
>the reading of Goering’s telephone conversation with Ribbontrop on the day
>of Hitler’s triumphant entry into Vienna, describing the whole thing as a
>lark., with birds twittering, etc. Then the hilarity in the dock suddenly
>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

We note here by AMERICAN troops, therefore we do not expect to find any
mention of gas chambers or human skin as we now know those things did
not exist.

….

>Streicher: “…keeps watching, immobile ecept for an occaisinal
>squint…as human skin lampshade is shown, Streicher says, ‘I don’t
>believe that’…

And of course he was correct in not believing it.

….

>”After the showing of the film, Hess remarks, ‘I don’t believe it.’
>Goering whispers to him to keep quiet, his own cockiness quite gone.
>Streicher says something about ‘perhaps in the last days.’ Fritzsche
>retorts scornfully. ‘Millions? In the last days? -No.’ Otherwise there is
>a gloomy silence as the prisoners file out of the courtroom.

Who would have implied millions in the camps the Americans liberated?
It appears there is a false allegation that has been left out here.

>”We immediately went down to the cell block to talk to them individually.
>The first one was Fritzsche. As soon as we closed the door and started
>talking to him, he burst into tears and sobbed bitterely, ‘No power in
>heaven or earth – will erase this shame from my country! -not in
>generations – not in centuries! -‘ He shook with sobs and clenched his
>fists against his forehead, catching his breath only long enough to say,
>’Excuse me for losing control – but I to sit there and take it for a whole
>hour!’ We asked if he needed any sleeping pills and he answered, ‘No,
>what’s the use? It would only be cowardice to drug this thing out of my
>consciousness.’

>”Von Schirach seemed fairly well composed, but said, ‘I don’t know how
>Germans could do such things.’

>”Frick made some feeble attempts at rationalizations – ‘I suppose the
>disruption of communications in the last few months – the bombing and
>confusion – I don’t know.’ Then he dismissed the subject and asked whether
>they weren’t going to get their walk today.

>”Funk was depressed, and burst into tears as soon as we asked him how he
>was affected by the film. ‘Horrible! Horrible!’ he repeated in a choking
>voice. When asked whether he would need a sleeping pill, he sobbed,
>’What’s the use? – What’s the use?’

>”Streicher admitted the film was ‘Terrible’ -without any apparant feeling,
>then asked whether the guards couldn’t be more quite at night so that he
>could sleep.

>”Speer showed no outward emotional effects, but said that he was all the
>more resolved to acknowledge a collective responsibility of the Party
>leadership and absolve the German people of the guilt.

>”Frank was extremey depressed and agitated. As soon as wee mentioned the
>film, he began to cry in abject shame and rage. ‘To think that we lived
>like kings and believed in that beast! -Don’t let anybody tell you that
>they had no idea! Everybody sensed that there was something horribly wrong
>with this system, even if we didn’t know all the details. They didn’t want
>to know! It was too comfortabe to live on the system, to support our
>families in royal style, and to believe that it was all right. You treat
>us too well,’ he said, pointing to the food on the table, which he hadn’t
>touched. ‘Your prisoners and our own people starved to death in our
>camps.-May God have mercy on our souls! -Yes, Herr Doktor, what I told you
>was absolutely right. – This trial has been willed by God. _I was trying
>to be understanding with the others when we came together – but that’s
>over – I know what I have to do…’ He became more solemn with the last
>sentance. We asked if he needed anything to sleep. He shook his head. ‘No,
>thank you. -If I don’t sleep , I can pray…’ (There was no doubting his
>sincerity.)

>”Seyss-Inquart admitted: ‘It gets you. -But I can hold out.’

>”Still trembling with emotion, Doenitz said hald in English and half in
>German, ‘How can they accuse me of knowing of such things? They ask why I
>didn’t go to Himmler to check on the concentration camps. Why that’s
>preposterous! He would have kicked me out just as I would have kicked him
>out if he came to investigate the navy! What in God’s name did I have to
>do with these things? It was only by chance that I rose to such a high
>position and I never had a thing to do with the Party.’*

>[“* Doenitz was not indicted on Count 4″ p.48fn.]

>”We asked von Papen why he didn’t watch the picture. ‘I didn’t want to see
>Germany’s shame,’ he admitted.

>”Sauckel was completely unnerved. His face twitched and he trembled from
>head to foot. He stretched out his fingers and cried, wild-eyed, ‘I’d
>choke myself with these hands if I thought I had the slightest thing to do
>with those murders! Its a shame! Its a disgrace for us and for our
>children -and for our children’s children’s children!’

>Schacht was burning with indignation. ‘How dare they make me sit there
>with thse criminals and watch a film on concentration camp atrocities!
>They know that I ws an enemy of Hitler and ended up in a concentration
>camp myself! It is unforgiveable!’

>”Von Neurath was rather bewildered, didn’t have much to say. Simply
>pointed out that he wasn’t in power when all this went on.

>”Raeder said that he had hardly even heard of concentration camps before.
>Just heard of three of them, when he made efforts to get some friends out.

>”Jodl was calm, but evidently moved. ‘It is shocking. Believe me -the
>shame of it all is that so many of the youth joined the Party out of
>idealistic motives.’

>Keital was eating, having just returned from a conference with his defense
>attorney. He appeared to have forgotten the film until we mentioned it. He
>stopped eating and said with his mouth half full, ‘It is terrible. When I
>see such things, I’m ashamed of being a German! -It was those dirty SS
>swine! -If I had known it I would have told my son, ‘I’d rather shoot you
>than let you join the SS.’ But I didn’t know. I’ll never be able to look
>people in the face again.”

>”Hess seemd confused, kept mumbling, ‘I don’t understand- I don’t understand.’

>”Ribbentrop had a visibale tremor of the hands, and looked utterly
>bewildered. ‘Hitler couldn’t even have looked at such a film himself. -I
>don’t understand. – I don’t even think Himmler could have ordered suchs
>things. -I don’t understand.

>”Rosenberg was even more nervous than usual. ‘Its an awful thing, even if
>the Russians did do the same thing -terrible-terrible-terrible -.’ I
>pointed out his responsibility in formulting Nazi Rassenpolitik (racial
>policy). ‘Oh, you can’t explain it on the basis of Rassenpolitik,’ he
>answered defensively, ‘becuse so many Germans were killed. -This just
>weakens our whole defense.’

>”As for Goering, he was apparantly disturbed because it had spoiled his
>show. ‘It was such a good afternoon too, until they showed that film.
>-They were reading my telephone conversations on the Austrian affair, and
>everbody was laughing with me. -And then they showed that awful film, and
>it just spoiled everything.’ (_Nuremberg Diary_, pp.45-49.)

Which is quite interesting in that all of these would be exculpatory
evidence in a real trial. Failure of the chain of command, probably a
courts martial offense worthy of execution, but certainly not for direct
participation in these matters no matter how exaggerated.

>> In January, there was evidence of mass shootings. No one questioned it then,
>> and no one does now. When the Russians presented their case, 2/8/46, there
>> was a change in mood. Namely, skepticism. (p.135ff)

>Janauary “evidence of mass shootings:”

>”Morning Session [January 3, 1946]: Colonel Amen called former SD Chief
>Ohlendorf to the stand. Ohlendorf described hw orders for mass murder were
>given and executed, and how he was given command of an action group to
>exterminate 90,000 Jews. He gave the gruesome details of mass shootings
>for men and gas-wagon extermination for women and children. It was all
>directly ordered by Himmler on behalf of the Fu”hrer, so he had to obey.
>[The effect on the defendants was generally depressing, as the inescapable
>reality and shame of mass urder was driven home by the unquestionable
>reliability of a German official who admitted participating in it.] (Ibid.
>p.101.)

>Hardly suprising that “no one questioned it then, and no one does now,”
>considering the “unquestionable reliability” of former SD Chief Ohlendorf
>testifying to his _admitted participation_ in murdering 90,000 Jews in
>mass shootings and “gas-wagons.”

>February 8, 1946, opening address of the Russian prosecution:

>”Goering looked rather depressed as I pointed out that the courtroom was
>full for the first time in weeks, to hear the Russian chief prosecutor,
>General Rudenko, make his opening address. ‘Yes, they all want to see the
>show,’ he said scornfully. ‘-You will see- this trial will be a disgrace
>in 15 years.’

>”Morning Session: General Rudenko began the prosecution by the Russian
>delegation with an impassioned condemnation of the fascist invaders.
>’…The defendants knew that cynical mockery at the laws and customs of
>war constituted the gravest crime. They knew it, but they hoped that the
>total war, by brigning victory, would also secure there immunity. But
>victory did not arrive on the heels of their crimes. Instead came complete
>and unconditional surrender of Germany, and with it came the hour of grim
>reckoning for all the outrages they committed… (Ibid. p.135.)

>[Rest of Rudenko’s monologue omitted.]

>”Lunch Hour: (During the address Goering and Hess took off their
>headphones as a gesture that the address was not worth listening to.) When
>I asked Goering why he hadn’t been listening, he said that he knew in
>advance what the Russians were going to say, but he was amazed to hear
>them talking about Poland -he had caught word that word when General
>Rudenko mentioned aggression against varius countries. ‘I did not think
>they would be so shameless as to mention Poland,’ he said.

>”‘Why do you consider it shameless?’ I asked.

>”‘Because they attacked at the same time we did. -It was all a prearranged
>affair.’

Which appears to be something the holohuggers do not wish to recognize
in addressing Britain’s selective declaration of war on Germany only.

>(Ibid. p.136.)

>[Rest of Febraury 8 omitted.]

>It is equally unsuprising that the defenadants (i.e. Goering) became
>”skeptical” when the Russian presented their opening arguments. The
>defendants has _already_, apriori, concluded that they were false. BFD.

Most likely a wise decision.

>> At one point, Gilbert, conversing with Goering said, *You can’t shrug off
>> 6 million murders!* — To which Goering responded, *Well, I doubt if it
>> was 6 million, but as I have always said, it is sufficient if only 5 per
>> cent of it is true …*

>”Morning Session [Febraury 15, 1946]: The Russins continued with German
>atrocities, and mentioned excerpts from Frank’s diary and other utternces
>which show that he directly tied up with atocities in Poland. (Ibid. 151.)

>”Lunch Hour: […] I mentioned that the Russians were expected to show an
>atrocity film on Monday.

>”Ach, what the Russians show!’ Goering scoffed uneasily.

>”Ribbentrop promptly parroted the Rosenberg line of attack: ‘Haven’t you
>heard about how the Americans slaughtered the Indians? Were they an
>inferior race too? -Do you know who started the concentration camps in the
>first place? -The British. And do you know why? To force the Boers to give
>up their arms.’

>”‘Those atrocity films!’ Giering continued. ‘Anybody can make an atrocity
>film if they take corpses out of their graves and then show a tractor
>shoving them back in again.’

>”‘You can’t brush it off that easily,’ I replied. ‘We did find your
>concentration camps fairly littered with corpses and mass graves- I saw
>them myself in Dachau! -and Hadamar!’

>”‘Oh, but not piled up by the thousands like that-‘

>”‘Don’t tell me what I didn’t see! I saw corpses literally by the carload-‘

>”‘Oh, that one train-‘

>”‘-And piled up like cordwood in the crematorium- and half starved and
>mutilated prisoners, who told me how the butchery had been going on for
>years -and Dachau was not the worst by far! You can’t shrug off 6,000,000
>murders!’

>”‘Well, I doubt if it was 6,000,000,’ he said despondantly, apparantly
>sorry he had started the argument, ‘-but as I’ve always said, it is
>sufficient if only 5 per cent of it is true-.’ A glum silence followed.
>(Ibid. p.152.)

>Given the context of the discussion, it is quite clear that Goering’s “5
>percent” comment was simply him blowing smoke out his butt in a lame
>attempt to downplay the murder of 6 million Jews.

What may be clear to you makes it clear to me you see this as a Jews
only affair. This has been noted many, many times.

>> The reaction to the _Soviet_ atrocity film was markedly different.
>> Goering, for one, considered it phony, with the parts of the corpses
>> probably played by German soldiers. (p. 162.)

>”Afternoon Session [February 19, 1946]: The Russians presented their
>atrocity film, a horrifying document of mass murder even more terrible
>than the one presented by the Americans. [I stood at Goering’s end of the
>dock and watched the prisoners in the semidarkness during the showing of
>the film.

>”Goering is tickled at the false start, as the film starts upside down and
>has to be readjusted; he covers his laugh with his hand, but looks around
>to see if the audience is laughing … The film starts again] … It shows
>the acres of corpses of Russian PW’s murdered or left to starve in the
>fields where they had been captured; the torture instruments, nutilated
>bodies, guillotines and baskets of heads; bodies hanging from lamp-posts,
>found upon recapture of towns were the Gestapo had been active; the ruins
>of Lidice; women weeping over their dead -mass burial services; raped and
>murdred women, children with heads bashed in; the crematoria and the gas
>chambers; the piles of clothes, the bales of women’s hair at Auschwitz and
>Maidanek … [Goering keeps pretending to read a book through all of this,
>yawining in boredom, occaisonally making a sarcastic remark to Hess and
>Ribbentrop.]

>”Goering’s Cell: I went down to the cell block with Major Goldensohn to
>get a sampling of reactions. Goering readily gace ‘reasons’ why he did not
>consider the Russian atrocity film worth looking at: ‘First of all, a film
>that they made is no proof, just looking at it from a legal point of view.
>They could just as easily have killed a few hundred German PW’s and put
>them in Russian uniforms for the atrocity picture- you don’t know the
>Russians the way I do. Secondly, lots of those pictures were probably
>taken during their own revolution, like the basketts of heads. Thirdly,
>those fields covered with bodies. -Why, such pictures are easy to get any
>time in a war. I’ve seen thoudands of bodies myself. And where did they
>get fresh corpses to photograph? They couldn’t have come right in ready to
>take pictures. They must have shot those people themselves.’ He was eager
>to appear perfectly satisfied in dismissing the whole thing with this
>preposterous propaganda line but threw a sop to our moral sensitivity. ‘Of
>course, as I’ve always told you, it is enough if only 5 per cent of all
>the atrocity stories are true, from all that has already been presented
>before -but I do not put any stock in what the Russians bring. They are
>blaming there own atrocities on us.’ (Ibid. pp.161-162.)

>Again, given the context of the, it is quite clear that Goering’s comments
>were simply more smoke blowing out of his butt in another lame attempt to
>downplay the murder of 6 million Jews with puerile appeals to authority
>like “you don’t know the Russians the way I do” and “I’ve seen thoudands
>of bodies myself.”

And of course you accept the story of the guillotines and the basketsful
of heads that have vanished from history as this Jewish holocaust thing
of yours has become codified.

>Goering, ss Gilbert noted, “was eager to appear perfectly satisfied in
>dismissing the whole thing with this preposterous propaganda line but
>threw a sop to our moral sensitivity” with his puerile “5 percent
>solution.” BFD.

But of course the Russians were telling the truth about the heads were
they not? Or do you agree that at least this part was falsified?

>> February 27 and 28 gave the balance of Soviet testimony, namely, on
>> Auschwitz and Treblinka. (p. 174ff) There is a revealing episode here.
>> During a break, Dr. Kranzbuhler, Doenitz’ attorney, asked him, *Didn’t
>> _anybody_ know _anything_ about _any_ of these things?* Doentiz
>> shook his head and shrugged sadly. Goering turned around, *Of course not
>> …*

>”Morning Session [Febraury 27, 1946]: A surviving Jewish resident of Vilna
>told how all but 600 of the 80,000 Jewish residents of Vilna were
>exterminated by special commandos, and babies, including his own, were
>killed at birth. Colonel Smirnov then continued to describe from
>documents, experiments on concentration camp inmates, the whlesale murder
>of sick people in hospitals, etc.

It is interesting that 79,400 Jews were exterminated by Jews. Or is
this suddenly not a completely Jewish affair?

>”The a women prisoner from Auschwitz, Severina Shmaglevskaya, described
>the treatment of women and children there. Babies born in camp were taken
>away immediately and never seen again. She demanded with suppressed
>bitterness, ‘In the name of all the women of Europe who became mothers,
>’Where are our children now?” [Several of the defense attorneys bit their
>lis.] As she went on to describe how Jewish children were thrown alive
>into the crematorium furnaces during the rush season of 1944, most of the
>defendants lowered their heads. Funk turned his back on Streicher and
>leaned sickly on the back of the bench. Frank flushed; Rosenberg fidgeted.
>Goering solved the problem as usual by taking his earphones off. Hess
>hadn’t even been listening.

It is interesting to note that she worked in a crematoria while pregnant
or perhaps the pregnant part is an unwarranted inference.

>”Lunch Hour: At the end of the session, before going to lunch, Doenitz’
>naval attorney, Dr. Kranzbuhler,asked him, ‘Didn’t _anybody_ know
>_anything_ about _any_ of these things?’ Doenitz shook his head and
>shrugged sadly.

>Goering turned around. ‘Of course not. -You know how it is even in a
>battalion -a battalion commander doesn’t know anything that goes on in the
>line. The higher you stand, the less 7you see of what is going on below.”
>I could hardly have thought of a more damning argument against the
>military hiearchy, but Goering, in his militeristic perversion, thought he
>had given a reasonable explination.

>”…I went over to Jodl and asked him whether he thought it was possible
>that nobody knew anything about any of the things mentioned today.
>Kaltenbrunner was sitting in the next corner.

>”‘Of course, somebody knew all about it,’ Jodl said quietly. ‘There was a
>whole chain-of-command from the Chief of the RSHA down to the people who
>executed those commands.’

>”I then walked over to Kaltenbrunner. ‘I suppose you didn’t know anything
>about these things either.’

>”Of course not,’ he whispered. ‘The peole who did are all dead. -Hitler,
>Himmler, Boremann, Heydrich, Eichmann-‘

>”‘Did those few people have the sole knowledge and responsibility for the
>murder of millions of people and the burning of the children alive?’

>”‘Well, no- the peole who actually participated in it did-. But I had
>nothing to do with it.’

>”‘Even as Chief of the RSHA?’

>”‘Concentration camps were not my responsibility. I never found out
>anything about any of this.” (Ibid. pp.173-175.)

>Hmmm. A little lie of ommision here, on Erlich’s part, it seems. What was
>the _purpose_ of mentioning only _part_ of Goering’s lame-ass
>”militeristic perversion” while _omitting_ Jodl’s and Kaltenbrunner’s
>comments that contradicted Goering?

And again we have more exculpatory statements were this a real trial.

>> On April 15 there was a climax of sorts when Rudolf Hoess testified. (p.
>> 264ff) There was initial disbelief, but no one seems to have thought that
>> he might not be telling the truth. Of course, at that time, Hoess
>> testified to the gassing of 2.5 million.

>[April 15, 1946]

>”Morning Session: In the morning session, Colonel Hoess testified to the
>murders of 2 1/2 million Jews under his direction at Auschwitz. It was all

2 1/2 million while he was commandant.

>done at Himmler’s direct orders as a Fu”hrerbefhl [Fu”hrer’s order] for
>the final solutiono of the Jewish problem. [He gave his testimony in the
>same matter-of-fact, apathetic manner as he had related it to me in his
>cell.] The Jews arrived in large train transports from all countries.
>Those capable of working were sent to the labor details, and the rest,
>including most women and all young children, were sent to the
>extermination chambers immediately. Children who were hidden under the
>dresses of their mothers to escape notice were torn from their mothers and
>sent to the gas chambers. Gold teeth and gold rings were extracted from
>the corpses after gassing and the melted gold was sent to the Economics
>Ministry. The women’s hair was packed in bales for commercial use.

>”[The defendants all listened to this in gloomy silence.

Which is not surprising in that we know Hoess’s primary claim was false.

Frank, in spite
>of the revival of remorse which he professed to me yesterday, was
>overheard using some of the stock Nazi defensive rationalizations in a
>conversation with Rosenberg, within hearing of Kaltenbrunner, during the
>morning recess. ‘They are trying to pin the murder of 2,000 Jews a day in
>Auschwitz on Kaltenbrunner- but what about the 30,000 people who were
>killed in the bombing attacks on Hamburg in a few hours? -They were also
>mostly women and children. -And how about the 80,000 deaths from atomic
>bombing in Japan? -Is that justice too?’ Rosenberg laughed. ‘Yes, of
>course- because we lost the war.’]

>”Lunch Hour: […] Frank said to me with some feeling: ‘That was the low
>point of the entire trial- to hear a man say out of his own mouth that he
>exterminated 2 1/2 million people in cold blood-. That is something that
>people will talk about for a thousand years.’ (Ibid. pp.264-266.)

>Now, there’s a keeper! “That was the low point of the entire trial” and
>”that is something that people will talk about for a thousand years.” And
>why _wouldn’t_ Ho”ss be believed? I mean , it’s not as if Ho”ss were the
>_only_ SS officer to admit to participating in the genocide of the Jews!
>Remember Ohlendorf, for instance? Or how about Franks’ diary? You know,
>the parts that said in December 1941, there were 2,500,000 Jews in Poland
>and later in January, 1994, that perhaps 100,000 remained? Gee, were did
>all those Jews go?

To the east, into the Red Army, out of Poland, lots of places.

>> To sum up, the defendants generally believed the testimony. But there was
>> no point in cross examining because no one at Nuremberg was convicted on
>> the basis of atrocity stories alone. No one hanged because of Auschwitz.
>> As a matter of fact, Hoess was only at Nuremberg to testify in
>> Kaltenbrunner’s defense. Bad move.

>”KALTENBRUNNER: ‘…When he became Chief of the Securoty Police and SD and
>head of the RSHA on January 30, 1943, Kaltenbrunner took charge of an
>organization which included the main offices of the Gestapo, the SD and
>the Criminal Police … During the period on which Kaltenbrunner was head
>of the RSHA, it was engaed in a widespread rogram of War Crimes and Crimes
>Against Humanity. These crimes included the mistreatment and murders of
>prisoners of war. Jews, commissars, and others who were thought to be
>ideologically hostile to the Nazi regime were reported to the RSHA, which
>had them transferred to a concentration camp and murdered … The order
>for execution of commando troops was extended by the Gestapo to include
>parachutists while Kaltenbrunner was Chief of the RSHA. An order signed by
>Kaltenbrunner instructed the police not to interfere with attacks on
>bailed out Allied fliers…

>”The RSHA played a leading part in the ‘final solution’ of the Jewish
>question by the extermination of the Jews. A special section under Amt IV
>of the RSHA was established to supervise this program. Under its direction
>approximately 6 million Jews were murdered, of which 2 million were killed
>by the Einsatzgruppen and other units of the Security Police.
>Kaltenbrunner had been informed of the activities of these Einsatzgruppen
>when he was a Higher SS and Police leader, and they continued to function
>after he became Chief of the RSHA. The murder of approximately 4 million
>Jews in concentration camps … was also under the supervision of the RSHA
>when Kaltenbrunner was head of that organization …’

Now that the EG are down to 1 million and A-B is down from 4 to 1
million … It looks like 6 is at least down to 2 million.

>”Verdict: Guilty on counts 3 and 4. [War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.]
>”Sentance: Death by hanging. (Ibid. p.440.)

>No one was hanged because of Auschwitz? Wasn’t Auschwitz a camp in the
>Nazi concentration camp system? Yes. Didn’t Jews die there? Yes. Wouldn’t
>that be covered under: “The murder of approximately 4 million Jews in
>concentration camps … was also under the supervision of the RSHA when
>Kaltenbrunner was head of that organization?” Yes.

>To claim that no defendant at the IMT was “hanged because of Auschwitz” is
>egregious hair-splitting. Kramer, for instance, was hanged because of
>Bergen-Belsen (and I believe for his participation in homicidal gassings
>at Auscwhitz. See Nuremburg Doctors Trial.). Not to mention that Ho”ss, as
>a result of his trial in Poland, _was_ “hanged because of Auschwitz.”

Because of WHAT particular crime at Auschwitz?

>> The defendants were shown the same film of inmates dead of disease and
>> malnutrition, and then accepted the rest without question. As have most
>> of us, most of the time. Because, in the final analysis, Goering was
>> right. Even if only 5% were true….

>Bullshit. In the “final analysis” they were tried, convicted, and executed
>(or imprisoned) for the deaths of 6 million Jews. Not to mention 6 million
>non-Jews in addition to other war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Then don’t mention the other 6 million. It is a touch late for you to
remember to bring them into it.

>> As Bradley F. Smith points out, *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg*, the
>> German lawyers seemed content on focussing on rebutting the accusation of
>> the Katyn Forest massacre. (p. 107)

>Perhaps. Not much else could be rubutted. The evidence against the Nazis
>was overwhelming and compelling.

>> One final point. The defendants in all of these trials were out to save
>> their lives. They were subject to a number of discovery restrictions which
>> would not apply in a normal case. They could cross examine witnesses, but
>> they could not dispute every affidavit.

>And? Are you suggesting something here? That the Nazis were railroaded perhaps?

Given all the evidence you have presented that these people did not know
about what was going on, it is difficult to come to any other
conclusion.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:43:00 PDT 1996
Article: 47546 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:00:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] writes:
>
>>
>>[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:
>>
>>>Whatever the roots of the revisionist position, a revisionist stance must
>>>make some account of the persistence of belief in the Holocaust (or one
>>>of its component parts). It’s simply a necessary part of the discourse.
>>> [ . . . . ]
>>>Revisionists, many here on a.r., describe the Holocaust as a psychological
>>>condition that Jews (or guilt-ridden liberals) have been afflicted themselves
>>>with. (And by the way, this masterpiece of slander is implicit in every
>>>mention of “holohugger”– no matter what the neologism’s etymological root
>>>is.)
>>
>> The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>>guilt to explain. All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.
>
>Though you don’t permit others to put you with Bradley Smith, Ernst Zundel
>&tc. Not a substantial double standard, but a double standard nonetheless.

I have never met them. I do not particularly remember having read
anything that any of them may have written. I have certainly not
formulated any of my ideas based upon anything they have written.

So why should I be connected with them?

>>[It is not possible to challenge the media’s (?-accidental deletion, sorry)]
>>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media. In some
>>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.
>
>I’ll reserve my doubts about this and get more to the point:
>
>Isn’t your view that the media represses revisionism evidence that any
>Holocaust `cult’ must be guided by some ideology– that is, a viewpoint
>that not everyone understands or is allowed to understand, that is maintained
>by physical force or cultural restraint? As an athiest, surely you must
>cite religion as one of the institutions that enforce very powerful
>ideologies. Nu?

I have observed a fact. I have not directly ascribed a cause to it in
this post.

>> I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>>inspection.
>
>So, there is a reason. Indeed, you feel free to explain yourself:
>
>>The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be. The
>>”explanations” the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.
>
>Really, why? The Holocaust is put to all kinds of uses, yes– but why are
>Nizkor and others hiding?

Hiding what?

>> What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done. Blood
>>money for Israel is another suggestion. However at this point the
>>reasons suggested are speculation.
>
>But why would you be permitted to speculate on the Holocaust story’s origins
>and rise to power when a moment ago you said that any such arguments were
>virtually forbidden? Why risk it?

This is the United States. Freedom of speech. Use it or lose it.

>> Consider the difference in Russia. They trot out their war heroes in
>>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>>year.
>
>The memorial day for the Holocaust is once a year.

It is difficult to find a week where there is not something about it on
the cable. And I have never seen a skeptical or critical investigation
of the story, not once.

>> But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>>war.
>>
>> However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war. It
>>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>>the loss of Texas and California.

>You should read Ehrlich’s longer post, “Three Holocausts”. I am unable to
>summarize the whole of it, but he pointed out, that unlike other atrocities,
>an entire culture, specifically the culture of Eastern Europeans, was
>annihilated. The Yiddish language being only one loss. Neither the peoples
>of Russia nor Mexico nor Germany faced near-total eradication; nor were
>they forced to begin again with such radically discontinuity.

As I have pointed out, it was no particular loss any more than the loss
of the Hun culture was a loss. Things change. BUT if Eastern European
cultures wish to bemoan the loss, that is their business. But if that
is your context, perhaps the celebration should be for avoiding 45 years
of communism.

As for the German dialect, it is my understanding it is doing quite well
in NYC.

But I still do not see any particular cause of remembering such a loss
regardless of degree.

>> This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature. As I
>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>day he died.
>
>So you have diagnosed it; one and the same with giving an account for it.
>It’s similiar to the way homophobes deal with gays. They simply repeat to
>themselves the following:

I have given an analogy and nothing more. You comparison is not of
interest.

>>There is something very, very wrong with these people. It needs help,
>>not encouragement.
>
>So you do have an explanation for it– almost identical to the one I offered
>above: you believe that some people have too much emotional investment
>(& you hint political investment too, but this is conspiracy & you said. ..)
>in the Holocaust to listen to your version of events. You’ve been saying it
>for a while now (& it was inevitable that you did).

I have given an analogy. Do you consider it to be fallacious in same
manner?

This has been the implicit
>critique you have been making; otherwise, what point would there be in
>degrading people with `hologhugger’?

I am open to the use of another name. What would you suggest?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:43:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47550 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:17:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>>
>>
>> You are doing well. You know that the Jewish organizations gave
>their
>> statements in a very political, shall I say legalistic, manner that
>> separated but did not condemn.

> That’s a lie. Produce those “legalistic” statements. You’ve made the
>assertion, Matty poo, now prove it.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>> And now of course you demand evidence of
>> approval.

> L’il Tommy, whose outright lies and blantent anti-Semitism, you defend
>has claimed he can produce “hunreds” of examples of support. I challenge him
>to do so.

He will take care of his statements and I will take care of mine.

>> You sound like Bernie Nussbaum, noted Irish Catholic, saying “I didn’t
>> sign the requests” while failing to note that he never objected at any
>> time to the use of the stamp of his name on the FBI file requests. It
>> happened on his watch, did it not? Where does the buck stop? I know,
>> it never got here.

> You sound like Julius Streicher.

A friend of yours?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47551 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:22:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> Plausible deniability was not invented by Nixon. It goes back millenia.
>>
>> As an early example — “Yahweh ordered the genocide. It’s all his
>> fault.” And it continues to be amazing that the most self-aggrandizing
>> genocidal maniacs in recorded history complain when it may or may not
>> have happened to them.
>>
>> It is difficult to imagine them complaining about Hitler who failed when
>> these genocidal maniacs write of complete success.
>>
>> And the worst of it is that they will not acknowledge their barbaric
>> history but rather elevate it to the sanctity that justifies the
>> continuing slaughter of the Arabs by the Israelies.
>>
>> There really are not too many ways you can recast genocide and say it is
>> not genocide.
>>
>> The Jews are the descendants of the most genocidal people in recorded
>> history, period. And it is their own history. And that genocide is the
>> sole basis for their claim upon Israel today.
>>
>> They have no basis for objecting to failed genocidals attempts against
>> them.

>Errrr… not that Matt giwer is an antisemite or anything, of course.

Did I refer to something that is not documented in Israelite writings?

Or perhaps you really believe the “Yahweh made me do it” cop out.

Which is it?

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 20:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47555 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:19:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Keith Morrison ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Matt Giwer’s favourite Rodgers and Hammerstein musical is clearly
>: “Annie Get Your Gun”. After all he does seem to have this odd
>: fixation on the song lyric “Anything you can do I can do better”.

>It stands to reason that Myshkin’s

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

favorite Rodgers and Hammerstein
>musical would be “Annie Get Your Gun” — because “Annie Get Your Gun”
>was written by Irving Berlin (well, the songs were; the book was by
>Herbert and Dorothy Fields). But this raises an interesting question.

>At the web site http://www.mtix.com/sym/south.htm, there is an advertisement
>for the St. Louis Symphony which will be performing highlights of “Annie
>Get Your Gun” — and the ad says that it’s by Rodgers and Hammerstein.

>At the web site http://www.libertynet.org/area/calendar/events/august.html,
>there is a notice for a performance of “Annie Get Your Gun” — and it
>says that the musical is by Irving Berlin.

>Now we have two pieces of mutually contradictory eyewitness evidence.
>Does that prove that the musical “Annie Get Your Gun” doesn’t exist?

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>”I’ve lost my harmonica, Albert.”

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 22:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47575 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question: How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:37:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >> >Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>> >> >it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>> >> >Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle. In
>> >> >this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>> >> >Socialist philosophy, is the highest
>> >> >embodiment of the human form, and at the other end is the Jewish race. A
>> >> >number of lesser races are in between.
>> >>
>> >> You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>> >> further.
>> >>
>> >> I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>> >> everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.
>>
>> >I AM RIGHT! I AM GIWER! Proof is irrelevant. Documentation is irrelevant.
>> >Reasons are irrelevant. You will be a-spam-inated.
>>
>> What you have attempted to do is set up a link between me and Stormfront
>> and then attack what Stormfront says as though I were saying it.
>>
>> As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>> Hitler on that subject. It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>> democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>> work. It is race neutral.

>Race neutral? I’m sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>anything about National Socialism and its history.

On one hand you talk about national socialism and then you say that
those who call themselves nazis would be surprised. You need to learn
to think more precisely than that. You may as well include
anti-semitism as part and parcel of communism is you are going to
indulge in such sloppy thinking.

>> Now just what is it you think you are doing save attacking your own
>> strawman?

>Stating facts. What the hell do you think you’re doing save trolling again?

You need to learn much more than you know now.

>I am Giwer of Borg. Facts are irrelevant. Prepare to be a-spam-inated.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

At least you were prepared.

From [email protected] Mon Jul 1 22:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47576 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:39:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(RuthSommer) wrote:

>> I think you are right on the button. Believe as I do, or be censored!
>> Agree with me,
>> or be driven off the newsgroup through harassment and vicious hate!
>>
>> My impression, from reading so many of these kinds of vicious
>> anti-revisionist posts,
>> are that the LAST thing these people want is a free and open, rational
>> exchange of
>> opinions on the Holocaust.
>>
>> Your ‘Holoterrorist’ expression is perfect. Other lurkers here ought to
>> take this very
>> seriously. What kind of a society are we living in, where freedom of
>> speech is so
>> scantily protected? And why are Jewish people so apparently determined to
>> smash it?
>
>BBZZZZZZTTTTTT! Wrong, but thanks for playing.
>
>As a consolation prize, we’re sending you a second working brain cell.
>Keep it up, and you might eventually end up with a full set.

This does appear to be an excellant example of what she is talking
about. Thank you for providing it so quickly.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47584 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:19:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >> >Why do you ask? Anyone who takes a basic physics course that mentions
>> >> >Relativity is usually asked to calculate the effects using the
>> >> >transformation equations.
>> >>
>> >> In the context in which you used it, it is meaningless. Now that you
>> >> claim to have actually done the calculation at least once, it is clear
>> >> you knew it was meaningless.
>>
>> >No, it was a joke, a play on the word “relative”. Comprende?
>>
>> The Lorentz-Fitzgerald transformations preceded the special theory of
>> relativity.

>No kidding, Sherlock. However they are commonly associated with Special
>Relativity by people who have used them to calculate the various effects
>Einstein discovered.

>> >> >Didn’t you have to do it when you took your BS?
>> >>
>> >> Actually I learned of them and did my first calculations in high school.
>>
>> >Matt Giwer’s favourite Rodgers and Hammerstein musical is clearly
>> >”Annie Get Your Gun”. After all he does seem to have this odd
>> >fixation on the song lyric “Anything you can do I can do better”.

>That should be, of course, the Irving Berlin musical. (Thanks, Rich)
>Of course, this means that since two different versions now exist of who
>wrote it, the musical never actually existed. Right, Matt?

>> Did better.

>Ah-one and ah-two (gesundheit!) and ah-three…

>Anything you can do I can do better
>I can do anything better than you
> No you can’t
>Yes I can
> No you can’t
>Yes I can
> Bo you can’t
>Yes I can yes I can yes I can!

>Any degree you’ve earned I earned it sooner
>I earned everything sooner than you
> No you didn’t
>Yes I did
> No you didn’t
>Yes I did
> No you didn’t
>Yes I did yes I did yes I did!

>Any field you’re an expert, I know it better
>I know everything better than you
> No you don’t
>Yes I do
> No you don’t
>Yes I do
> No you don’t
>Yes I do yes I do yes I do!

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
As noted, it was in the past tense for a proper statement of what I did.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47587 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 06:51:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Rumplestiltskin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: And yet he [Myshkin] still scores points. . . .

>Name one.

>: His lack of accuracy is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>: counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>: authority.

>His “lack of accuracy”? That’s an understatement if I’ve ever seen one.
>He has yet to be accurate on anything that I’ve seen. You also have a
>serious misunderstanding of what an “appeal to authority” is. If Myshkin
>says that CO2 is not an acid, my quoting a chemistry textbook to him
>is not “an appeal to authority” — it is a refutation of his claim. If
>he says that HCN is from “coke flue gases” and therefore the crematoria
>would have put out significant amounts of HCN, and I point out that HCN
>is produced in the production, not the combustion, of coke, that is not
>an “appeal to authority” — that is a refutation of his claim. If Myshkin
>says that the number of deaths at Auschwitz has been revised downward
>from 4 million to 1 million and thus the total number of Holocaust deaths
>must be lowered by that amount, and I point out that Hilberg arrived at
>a total number of Holocaust deaths of at least 5.1 million of which
>1 million were from Auschwitz, I am not using Hilberg as an “appeal to
>authority” — I am refuting Myshkin’s claim. If Myshkin claims that
>Israel has a written constitution and someone quotes to him the legal
>definition of a constitution and explains how Israel’s Basic Laws do not
>meet that definition, that is not an “appeal to authority” — that is
>a refutation of his claim. If Myshkin claims that the term “United
>Nations” was not used prior to the founding of the current UN organization,
>and someone quotes a document from 1944 that uses the term “United
>Nations”, that is not an “appeal to authority” — that is a refutation
>of his claim. I could go on all day like this, but either you have my
>point or you probably never will.

>So I will repeat my request from above: name a single valid point that
>Myshkin has made; name a single claim that he has made that was only
>rebutted by an appeal to authority. Good luck, Jim.

Sergeant Schutz!

You are supposed to see nothing, know nothing and hear nothing.

You have only fulfilled the second of the three requirements.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47601 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At The Auschwitz Black Wall
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:15:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>The testimony of former Auschwitz prisoner Fabian
>[Quoted in “Auschwitz: the Proceedings Against Mulka and Others” by
>Bernd Nauman, p. 292-3]:
>—————————————————————–
>The Pole Stachik rode into Block 28 on a bicycle and called out:
>”Stretcher bearers! Two stretchers! One box! Two boxes!”. If he said
>”one box”, we knew it would be a small execution: one family with
>child. If he said “stretcher”, then there was a big execution.
>Sometimes when we got there they had already been shot; but that
>only happened in small executions. When there were big executions
>we lined up in a corner of Block 11. Those who were selected were
>chased into the washroom and had to undress. The window was covered
>over with a blanket. In the yard under the window stood the staff
>of the SS. Everything went in double time. A certain Jakob took two
>prisoners by their arms and marched them over to the Black Wall.
>Then we had to come running with the stretcher and stand behind the
>SS men who were doing the firing. When the prisoners were shot –
>they were shot in the head with a fairly silent Flobert gun – they
>fell over. I grabbed their hands or legs and put them on the
>stretcher. Then we ran to the canal in Block 10 and the stretcher
>as tilted so the bodies could fall off. While this was going on
>the two next ones were already being shot. Everything went very
>quickly. The shooting of 100 prisoners did not take very long. Once
>the following happened: I was carrying the front end of the
>stretcher. Suddenly I heard a voice behind me: “Mr.
>Oberscharfuehrer, you didn’t shoot well”. Stiewitz had done the
>shooting, and he said: “Shut up, or you’ll get it”. We had to put
>down the stretcher, and Stiewitz once more shot him in the head.

And the holy saint put his hand in the boiling oil and complained that
it was too cool.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47605 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 02:29:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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From their own website…

BARZEL — IRON

JDL upholds the principle of Barzel — iron — the need to both
move to help Jews everywhere and to change the Jewish image through
sacrifice and all necessary means — even strength, force and violence.
The Galut image of the Jew as a weakling, as one who is easily stepped
upon and who does not fight back is an image that must be changed. Not
only does that image cause immediate harm to Jews but it is a
self-perpetuating thing. Because a Jew runs away or because a Jew allows
himself to be stepped upon, he guarantees that another Jew in the future
will be attacked because of the image that he has perpetuated. JDL wants
to create a physically strong, fearless and courageous Jew who fights
back. We are changing an image, an image born of 2,000 years in the
Galut, an image that must be buried because it has buried us. We train
ourselves for the defense of Jewish lives and Jewish rights. We learn
how to fight physically, for it is better to know how and not have to,
than have to and not know how.

To which is added…

The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
are Jewish sources.

Don’t bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>from their own site. We all know that it what it is.

It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.

Although this poem was written over 20 years ago, it is just as relevant
today.
In fact, JDL leaders have chosen it as our official
response
to the recent convention of the Southern Baptists!

Never Again

By Shmuel Ben Stern

The time has come for battle,
Our lips must not be still,
Jews together marching
With one gigantic will.

No longer do we sit and wait
And turn the other cheek,
The strength we find in unity
Will help protect our weak.

The greatest sin is silence,
Our brethren’s pain we share,
To them we send a message
That we are Jews who care.

When Moses, our great teacher,
Saw a Jew who bled,
He didn’t petition pharaoh,
He smote the Egyptian dead.

The order that G-d gave him
Was to the tyrant show
The message to deliver was
Let My People Go!

Maccabees and zealots
Did what we must do,
There are no fears of violence
To save another Jew.

And now some people caution
That we must slow our pace
For the goodwill of the Christian
And the image of our race.

Well, we care not for image
Nor for the velvet glove,
Our history has been bloodied
By acts of Christian love.

Crusades and inquisitions,
Accept the cross or die,
If we reject non-violence,
Our enemies will know why.

Our past is full of heroes
Who died that we might live,
Their image that you read about
Is the image that we give

Let Jews the whole world over
Raise their sons to men
Certain of their future
When we say “Never Again!”

Shmuel Ben Stern is a charter member of the Los Angeles Chapter of
the Jewish
Defense League.

Return to JDL in America Table of Contents

Return to JDL Home Page

It also appears they want this man dead.

JDL in America

David Cole: Monstrous Traitor

By Robert J. Newman

He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
deception. Just like a
low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
his venom to
innocent victims.

This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
denier of
the Six Million Jews.

Cole is a young Jewish man with an evil plan: To alter history and to
deny
documented facts.
A revolting and horrible monster is this so-called Jew.

He rubs shoulders with the neo-nazi criminals who do their evil deeds
for Adolf Hitler
and who, to this day, continue to spread anti-Semitism through the guise
of Holocaust
revisionist denial.

What is a David Cole? Is it a sickness? Is it a mental disease? Is Cole
merely a human
parasite who clings to his ardent Nazi supporters and friends who back
his ideas
whole-heartedly? After all, this Cole mania that the media have played
on, don’t you
think it’s time that we flush this rotten, sick individual down the
toilet, where the rest of
the waste lies? One less David Cole in the world will certainly not end
Jew-hatred, but
it will have removed a dangerous parasitic, disease-ridden bacteria from
infecting
society.

David Cole laughs in the face of his own people. He takes pride in
seeing Jewish
Holocaust survivors suffer. He laughs and snickers when someone mentions
the
words Auschwitz, gas chambers and crematoriums.

Cole’s denial is really a denial toward his own people. He hates the
very fact that he
was born into this world a Jew. But more than anything else, his denial
is an
enormous crime against humanity.

This despicable low-life beast is worse than the Julius Streichers and
Joseph
Goebbels. He is more evil than they were-because he is a Jew! This
pathetic excuse
for a human being is a neo-Nazi traitorous sell-out to his own Jewish
people.

An evil monster like this does not deserve to live on this earth. All
the news stories
about his life only encourage Cole to feed his sick ego even more,
bringing attention
to his depraved lifestyle. Cole is an abominable psychopath who must be
stopped.

The word revisionist is a direct insult to the Jewish community, to
Holocaust survivors
and to the memory of the millions murdered. It is especially insulting
to us Jews who
are out to crush these vicious Holocaust-denying Nazis.

Just as we must get rid of this monster, Cole, we must also get rid of
the word
“revisionism” from our vocabulary. This awful word and Cole, too, must
be eliminated
altogether. There is no argument. There needs to be no more debates,
only the
elimination of the Holocaust deniers.

Cole is a sickness, a horrible aberration that is spreading like a
cancerous sore. David
Cole is being used by and manipulated by the neo-Nazis to further
promote their
agendas of hate.

He is a Jewish puppet for the Ernst Zundels, Bradley Smiths, Willis
Cartos and all the
white supremacist, Nazi-loving, murderous gangster thugs. They would
love to see all
the Jews of the world gassed and incinerated again in the burning
furnaces of
Treblinka, leaving smoldering ashes in its wake.

This world would be a happier place, indeed, when all the Jew-baiters
and Jew-haters
have disappeared, especially the most vicious hater of them all, David
Cole.

Return to JDL in America Table of Contents

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And an interesting report that is not denied.

Around The World

The Yellow Journalist

When Village Voice reporter Robert I. Friedman went to Israel earlier
this year to gather
information to discredit the settlement movement, he couldn’t wait to
step foot in
Tapuah, a settlement founded and populated by the followers of Rabbi
Meir Kahane,
of blessed memory. Friedman was there to “get the goods” on those
Zionist
hoodlums; and if he couldn’t get the goods, he would make them up – as
he has been
known to do in his writings about politically incorrect Jews, which
include Rabbi
Kahane, Orthodox Jews, pro-Israel organizations and, of course, JDL.

Friedman, who is not Jewish but who makes a living off the last name of
his father by
writing stories with a Jewish connection, says that while he was leaving
the
settlement, an armed group of settlers poured out of a yeshiva and
confronted him. He
says one member of the group then asked him his name. When he answered
“Robert,” the group allegedly knocked him to the ground and proceeded to
beat and
kick him. Friedman says during the beating, the settlers “were
practically yelling out
quotations from my book [about Rabbi Kahane] – ‘You wrote this! You
wrote that!'”

Friedman, who didn’t fight back, is said to have staggered into a local
police station
and attempted to have his attackers arrested. When he told the desk
sergeant his
sorrowful tale about the terrible Kahane boys, the officer looked at him
and said,
“Rabbi Kahane was a great man.” No charges were filed.

Return to Around the World

Return to JDL Home Page

And perhaps another side to the assassination.

JDL Around The World

Memories of a year ago:
JDL Presents “Ig-noble” Prize to Rabin & Peres

By Irv Rubin, JDL National Chairman

On the seventh night of Chanukah early last December, I sat at the
kitchen counter
finishing my second helping of my wife’s delicious latkes and watching
my sons as
they opened their gifts when the phone rang.

“Hey, Irv, Happy Chanukah,” chimed the familiar voice with the New York
accent. It
was one of my best friends — Fern Sidman — calling from her home three
thousand
miles away. She wanted to let me know that our New York chapter had
decided to
send 10 of its best Jewish activists to Oslo, Norway, to protest the
Nobel Peace Prize
ceremony in which Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, Foreign
Minister Shimon
Peres and PLO chief terrorist Yassir Arafat were to receive this coveted
honor.

Fern asked me if I was going to join them. (I had been doing some heavy
mental
wrestling since I found out about the plans a couple days earlier.) On
one hand, I felt
that as JDL’s national chairman I had the obligation to accompany them.
On the other
hand, I was hesitant about embarking on this mammoth journey just to
make a point in
lieu of the deafening silence of organized Jewry. Then again, how could
I miss a
chance to confront Peres (as I did at the recent Israel Film Festival in
L.A.) and Rabin.
There was no doubt in my mind that in response to the insane and
suicidal “peace
process” that each day was taking the lives of Israelis at the hands of
Arabs – –
Hamas? Islamic Jihad? Who cares what they call themselves? They’re all
Jew-hating
murderers – – we had to stand up and cry out, STOP THIS INSANITY!

At this point I realized there was only one answer: Yes! I would travel
to Norway and
join my fellow activists in protest. Fern said from the start she knew I
would decide to
go. (It’s a truism that friends know us better than we know ourselves.)
When I informed
close JDL associates in L.A. of my plans, one of them said he had
accrued enough
frequent flyer miles to make the trip with me at his own expense. I only
had a couple of
days to make travel arrangements, borrow winter clothes (My coats and
long
underwear stayed in Montreal when my parents moved the family to
Southern
California 30 years ago.), and confer with New York leader Mike
Guzofsky.

Mike informed me that Rabbi Avi Weiss of the Bronx’s Hebrew Institute of
Riverdale
would be in Oslo with two of his cohorts. My first reaction was “great,
the more the
better.” However, Mike said Weiss had a different agenda; his plans were
to lambaste
Norway, the Nobel Prize committee and the master terrorist Arafat. Sure,
Norway
shouldn’t welcome the Peace Prize triad and the Nobel committee made an
egregious
error in its selection and Arafat is lower than a sewer rat. What person
of normal
intelligence could disagree? But that’s Avi Weiss’s style: Always play
it safe. Get as
much press as you can, but don’t upset or alienate the broad spectrum of
Jewry.

On the other hand, JDL feels the obligation to save Jewish lives. The
pain of one Jew
is our pain, too. JDL speaks only the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth,
even though we don’t win popularity contests. The JDL faction would base
its
protests on the teachings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory. Rabbi
Kahane
often spoke of the Talmudic admonition, “He who is merciful unto the
cruel is destined
to be cruel unto the merciful.” We were going to Norway – not to
demonstrate against
Arafat, but to loudly declare the authentic truth: Rabin is a traitor.
His unholy alliance
with the enemies of the Jewish people is directly responsible for more
Jewish deaths
and the abnegation of the Land of Israel as God promised it to us.

Subsequent to discussing our angle on the upcoming demonstrations with
Mike, it
was time to leave. Twelve JDL activists got together in New York to
catch a KLM flight.
During the flight JDL members held a strategy session and carefully
planned the
agenda for the next three days.

Our plane arrived in Oslo on Friday, Dec. 9, an especially cold winter
afternoon. We
were immediately greeted by throngs of international media who had
gathered there to
cover this historic event. Also on the welcoming committee were the
Norwegian
Federal Police, who ushered us into an investigation room. Their curious
greeting was
Welcomen to Norway, Ya, followed by we know why you are here and we hope
your
protest will be peaceful.

We assured the politi (police) that we are “violently opposed to
violence” and, like Avi
Weiss, we were in Oslo to make our point. Sort of. Of course we
neglected to disclose
the contents of a press release faxed to all media that said we were
planning to stage
loud and raucous demonstrations against the Israeli traitors who, since
the infamous
handshake with Arafat on the White House lawn, have caused the death of
hundreds
of Jews. The hands of Rabin and Peres, we proclaimed, are drenched with
Jewish
blood. After our press release was circulated, no media representative
ever got us
confused with any other group.

After we left the airport, we checked into our modest hotel and began
preparations for
the coming Shabbat. It was decided that Yaakov Ben-Shlomo and Moshe
Cohen
would be dispatched to the Great Synagogue of Oslo, where, according to
reliable
sources, leftist/socialist Rabin would be putting in an appearance at
Friday night
services.

Our articulate warriors were preparing to tell Rabin what we thought of
him and his
so-called “peace process” as the rest of us discussed the propriety of
employing this
confrontational tactic. For Torah-observant Jews, the decision to
sanction such
behavior at a synagogue, a house of worship to the Almighty, especially
on the holy
Sabbath, was excruciatingly difficult. After much deliberation, we
concluded that such
behavior was morally justified, given the brutal fact that Jewish lives
are being
compromised by the policies of Rabin and the Torah precept, “Thou shalt
not stand
idly by thy brother’s blood” (Leviticus 19:16). And so Yaakov and Moshe
departed on
their mission.

As soon as they spotted Rabin the Rat, our brave warriors brazenly told
him –
face-to-face inside the shul – that he was committing treason against
the Jewish
people and that he was no better than a Nazi. Angered at the outburst in
his
synagogue, the Chief Rabbi of Oslo ordered the Norwegian police to
arrest the two.
Shame, shame on this so-called rabbi who disgraced himself in front of
the Torah and
behaved in a most reprehensible manner. He handed over two Torah-true
Jews to the
gentile authorities, who detained them in a prison cell for most of the
Sabbath. Upon
their release, we reveled in their heroism. Yaakov and Moshe are true
Jewish activists.
They acted from their hearts and not for the cameras.

On Saturday, we were busy making preparations for our major
demonstration during
the actual awards ceremony just hours away. In the meantime, Avi Weiss
held a lovely,
well-choreographed demonstration for the press.

Stand back, boys, and watch a real demonstration. During the ceremony,
in front of
thousands of onlookers, the 12 audacious JDLers burned a larger than
life-size effigy
of the Israeli prime minister. Our placards and banner told the world
that the Nobel
Peace Prize was actually the Ignoble Prize given to Rabin and Peres for
high treason
and to Arafat for ruthless, heinous acts of murder.

Although Norwegian police summarily arrested three of us (including me),
our militant
display provoked a far greater reaction from the usually restrained Avi
Weiss. Not only
did he try to block the many cameras covering the historic event from
turning their
attention to us, but also he attempted to tear down our banner, signs
and burning
effigy. Silly Avi. The spectacle he made of himself only attracted more
attention to our
protest. CNN and the worldwide media gave extensive coverage to the
burning effigy.
Israel TV broadcast the whole demonstration without comment. Ironically,
Weiss was
swept along on our coattails and got credit for our controversial and
brazen efforts to
spotlight the sham and hypocrisy of Israel’s top leaders.

(For any reader who is sitting there in shock and disbelief, he or she
can obtain a
video of our demonstration and Weiss’s blatantly anti-Jewish behavior
for $39.00. It
will be noted that JDL members conducted themselves on a higher moral
level by
refusing to physically respond to Weiss.)

I spent five hours in a jail cell in Oslo. If my count is correct, this
was the 37th arrest of
my JDL career; I must admit it was the most pleasant and comfortable
incarceration
that I’ve ever experienced. The jails in Oslo were clean and void of the
normal riffraff
we normally associate with the American penal system. Anyway, we were
released
without the filing of charges.

Soon it was Sunday. The awards had been presented. JDL successfully made
our
voices be heard. It was now time to board the plane for our flight home.
While on the
plane, my mind could not help thinking about the whirlwind of the
previous days’
events.

Twelve dedicated JDL activists returned to the United States, secure in
the knowledge
that we tried our best to inform the world that the treasonous
government of Israel is
taking a course that will annihilate Israel – its land and its people.
Our last resort is to
beseech the Almighty for guidance and mercy, and be comforted by the
fact that
Rabbi Kahane is smiling down at his loyal followers and students from
the Gates of
Heaven.

Return to Around the World

Return to JDL Home Page

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The New Ball Game (Was: Clarification Requested)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:12:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:15:47 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Richard
>Schultz) wrote:

>>[email protected] wrote:
>>: [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>: >People die from carelessness with HF check out sci.chem, if you don’t
>>: >believe me. HCN is very dangerous; it would be irresponsible of me to
>>: >advocate that you handle pure HCN in the manner you suggest.

>>: At this point it would be irresponsible for anyone to listen to you
>>: without independent verification.

>>Could someone please explain to me in what sense the last sentence above
>>is not a “personal attack”? If it is a personal attack, could someone
>>please explain to me on what basis Myshkin feels that it’s okay to respond
>>to personal attacks on him with hundred-line junk posts, but objects to
>>a procmail shell that sends back his email unread? Just curious.

>Hmmm… this is indeed a very puzzling question, Mr. Schultz. I have
>observed, however, that Messrs Ehrlich and Thomas seem have become the
>self-appointed arbiters of the new, improved, revisionist netiquette.

>And I am confident that one of them will enlighten us as to how we
>have erred by daring to:

>a) characterize these words as a personal attack (as all reasonable
>people would) and/or

>b) question the propriety of any behaviour in which Myshkin sees fit
>to engage (as all reasonable people would)

>I had heard rumours to the effect that there was reform afoot in the
>”revisionist” ranks. Talk of civilized discourse, intellectual
>honesty, personal responsibility, proper citations of text,
>presentation of evidence to support claims, retractions and apologies
>when called for – all that good stuff, you know.

>Alas, it seems they found that Myshkin and Moran were … hmmm….
>shall we say “resistant” to reform. M&M – as we all know – have been
>the fearless frontline footsoldiers recycling revisionist rhetoric for
>longer than many of us would care to remember.

>As you can well imagine, this presented a quandary at RHQ, because
>they are committed to presenting a united front. They could brook no
>division in the ranks. Then one of their bright lights stumbled
>across the strategy used by the Z-factory. You’ve probably noticed it
>in the Z-grams. They take truth to the cleaners by running it through
>their own special language laundry. You know how Ingrid talks when
>she’s in one of her loquacious expository moods – she just winds
>herself up and abracadbra! black is white and white is black!

>It didn’t take long to work out a strategy using this technique. They
>developed a buddy system: M&M could carry on as usual; when a post of
>theirs is given the treatment it so richly deserves, the buddy
>(usually one of the arbiters) rushes in, waves his magic wand over the
>words and abracadabra “demeaning language” becomes “skepticism” and
>”moranic neologisms” become “legitimate terms” – and to further
>bolster the new reality, we get blamed for their indiscretions, i.e.
>it is pointed out that whoever dared to give the post the treatment it
>deserves is in fact guilty of one MorM sin or another. Neat, huh?!

>You are probably asking yourself, “How can they say such things when
>there is a virtual mountain of documented evidence proving
>indisputably that Moran is twit and Myshkin’s a troll?”

>Well, we all know the answer to that: “Evidence, what evidence? It’s
>all very questionable. There was never a twit and never a troll. M&M
>are outstanding paragons of virtue. Because! We! Say! So!.”

>Well, Mr. Ehrlich did invite us to “Play Ball!” And after all, this
>_is _ “revisionism.”

>Hope this helps, Mr. Schultz

>Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Schultz
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:54:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:58:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>Mr. Giwer is to be commended for conducting himself throughout this
>post without the use of unwarranted childish, disrespectful
>namecalling and/or gratuitous profanities and invective.

Do you really think I give a damn about your opinion?

>His civilized tone was appreciated. Today he was wearing the colours
>of the

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, you are off to a poor start. Your friend, Mr.
>Ehrlich has on a few occasions commented that it is “difficult to know
>the players without a program.” USENET posting tradition has
>developed a way of addressing this problem. That method is to include
>the names of _all_ the “speakers”. This is known as providing
>”attributions”

>In this instance you have deleted the name of one of the speakers,
>i.e. Mr. Ehrlich, whose words can be found within the text of your
>post [Ball 1]

>Oh, and not only have you failed to note that Mr./Ms SF924 – who –
>after all _is_ hosting this game – is one of the players, you have
>deleted SF924’s text which provides the context for this game. Very
>bad move, Mr. Giwer. Sorry. [Strike 1]

Suddenly editting is not a good idea? If I edit holohuggers complain.
If I do not edit holohuggers complain. Which way do you folks want it?

>>>”Afternoon Session: Goering, Ribbontropm and Hess had a great laugh over
>>>the reading of Goering’s telephone conversation with Ribbontrop on the day
>>>of Hitler’s triumphant entry into Vienna, describing the whole thing as a
>>>lark., with birds twittering, etc. Then the hilarity in the dock suddenly
>>>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>>>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

>> We note here by AMERICAN troops, therefore we do not expect to find any
>>mention of gas chambers or human skin as we now know those things did
>>not exist.

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your point has no relevance to the text you are
>purporting to address. [Strike 2]

What do these words mean to you.

>>>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>>>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

As they were found by American troops. Tbey found none in territories
they did not liberate.

>>>Streicher: “…keeps watching, immobile ecept for an occaisinal
>>>squint…as human skin lampshade is shown, Streicher says, ‘I don’t
>>>believe that’…

>> And of course he was correct in not believing it.

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your assertion is unfounded. [Strike 3]

As you know, there was never a human skin lampshade found by anyone. It
was only claimed at the IMT for professional reasons. In other words
you are ignorant of the subject.

>We are “Playing Ball!” are we not, Mr. Ehrlich? Well, the umpire has
>just called it, Mr. Giwer. Sorry, you know the rules: 3 Strikes and
>you’re out.

As you are ignorant of the subject at hand, how can you know?

>[tsk tsk tsk many more Strikes deleted]

Rather you merely declare victory based upon what you do not know.

>>>And? Are you suggesting something here? That the Nazis were railroaded perhaps?

>> Given all the evidence you have presented that these people did not know
>>about what was going on, it is difficult to come to any other
>>conclusion.

>Ah, I see that it is just as well, because Mr. Giwer has reached a
>highly erroneous and totally unsupported conclusion.

>Better luck, next inning, Mr. Giwer. But then again perhaps you were
>only “pitch hitting” for the cobbler. And who knows, maybe _he_ will
>decide to return to the game. But thanks for playing. And for being
>so civil. I’m sure we shall meet again. Maybe you’d like to brush up
>on the rules while you are sitting on the bench.

>Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Van Alstine and Mr/Ms SF924 to let them
>know that the pitch-hitter struck out. And to Mr. McFee who is also
>waiting for Mr. Ehrlich to return on an adjacent field.

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

Yes, fatbroad, you have done it again, demonstrated that you are as
ignorant of the current version of the holocaust myth as you are of HTML
or anything else that would in fact earn the co-webmaster title.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:14:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 6:17:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> So one of the stories goes, there were SS men detailed to fake all the
>> mail.
>>
>> I actually heard that one on a PBS production.
>>
>> Obviously they had complete dossiers on these people from which to
>> create personal details and samples of handwriting for their expert
>> forgeries.

>Mr. Giwer:
>
>How much of a dossier do you need to write, “Everything is fine here.
>We’re working hard, and eating well.” (Or something like that.)

How about the names and addresses of who to mail them to at least? And
then the handwriting samples. Or would you think nothing amiss if you
received such a letter in the wrong handwriting calling you by the wrong
name and arriving at an address a few houses down the street?

One would certainly expect to find such files some place.

>As I stated before, I have SEEN letters like that. I have held them in my
>hand, seen the stamps and the dates on them.

Ah, good to know that you have seen letters recieved by JEWISH family
members who were not taken. Can you explain this?

>Why is that so difficult to believe? The SS (and the Nazis in general) had
>a vested interest in keeping the general populace calm. These letters were
>an attempt to do so.

Why would you not realize the problems that I have pointed out? Why do
you insist upon believing a story that is patently false?

If it was the result of a mass round up of Jews, who were the family
members receiving the letters? If they were immediately gassed who had
all the information to continue these forgeries for months to years?

You have a fine story but it does not stand up to even the minimal
scrutiny.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:15:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 6:18:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>
>> Beyond that, stop reaching. What in fact happened in the US was
>> correctly described here, Jewish leaders “distanced themselves” which
>> means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
>> terrorism of Kahane and the JDL. Or are you really such a novice that
>> you have no idea what “distance” means in political terms? Or do you
>> think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
>> out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?

> Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts. What were the
>statements and who made them. You have made the assertions, now prove
>them. Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L’il Tommy that the
>Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a “Jewish organization.”

> Let’s see where you stand, Matty poo.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:53:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:56:24 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57247 alt.revisionism:47623

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>>>>Rich, I suggest adding Ricardo “Autocyberretromoderationbot” Gonzalez to
>>>>>your killfile.

>>>>Thanks.

>>>>>As for Giwer, he is so obviously an asshole that I encourage him to
>speak
>>>>>out. Gord controls him, you know.

>>>>But, I’m Gordon McFeee…

>>>You may be Gordon McFeee, but I’m Gord McFee and *I* control Giwer. He is
>>>my obedient little puppy.

>>Yeah, but just remember McFeestein, this is only temporary contratroll
>>that you have been granted. (Just wait till it’s my turn, folks.) And
>>btw, McFeestein, what colour is your (parachute and) decoder ring finger
>>today, eh?

>Excuse me, that’s Sir McFeestein, I’ll have you know (me and Richard Gere).
>I know it is only temporary contratroll (great word by the way) that I have
>been granted, but I fear it may be permanent. See, the troll’s unrequited
>love may yet do him in. ‘Tis a pity to see.

>As to the ring, it’s a lovely shade of mauve.

>–
>Gord McFee

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:56:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:59:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57248 alt.revisionism:47624

[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:

>On 28 Jun 1996 06:48:05 GMT, [email protected] (Ricardo Hector
>Gonzales) wrote:

>>Unfortunately, most Jewish groups that started from noble and honest
>>roots have degenerated into PC organizations that only care about
>>promoting propaganda and silencing ideas that disagree with their
>>position.
>>
>>-Ric
>>
>>P.S. I am a Jew

>Mr. Gonzales, would you like to tell me which ideas is it that Jewish
>Organizations are trying to silence?? Hmm, I would really like to
>know, and while you are at it could you tell us the positions of the
>different Jewish Organizations positions and how they differ from
>those ideas they are trying to silence. Oh, and please tell me just
>what propaganda is being promoted.

>Pat.
>P.S. who cares.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:40:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>,<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47626 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57268

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] quotes:
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>[Ken’s well done satire deleted]

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: When I said it
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>
>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

>When you said what? The quote that Ken et al were making fun of required
>no legal expertise and as far as I could see had nothing to do with the
>below quote.

When I said the Nuremberg trials were kangaroo courts that did not pass
muster in any civilized country. What did you think I was talking
about?

>>”No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
>>had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
>>our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
>>international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
>>post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”
>>
>>–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

>> I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

>In other words you think that Goering et al were guilty as hell
>even though there was little to no legal justification for the
>Nurenburg trials and punishments.

I KNOW they were not given fair trials by US or British standards.

I KNOW the convictions would be overturned in a heartbeat on appeal in
the US.

Guilt was determined by a method unacceptable in any civilized country.

Do you have a problem with those statements? If so, what?

Unlike the Nuremberg “court” they were innocent until proven guilty.
They were never proven guilty by any civilized standard of law.
Therefore, they are legally innocent.

Next question.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:40:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:44:17 AM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47627 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57269

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>[deleted]

>>Quite simple, really; it’s part of a Giwerundian Self-Examination Mantra.
>>The speaker may have recently attended a Giwerundian Encounter Session,
>>and the phrase may have stuck in his
>>consciousness (in the G. sense) as being particularly
>>helpful.

>You mean he has a problem with his G. spot? Is that why he seeks to pillory
>Hilary?

>>>Of course, I have no idea what the “Gang of Six” is.

>>An invention. At the time your sample initiated the phrase,
>>there were Seven in the Gang of Eight, not Six.

>Whew. I thought there were eight in the Gang of Six.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:42:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:46:03 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:

>> Mark Van Alstine wrote on18 Jun 1996
>>
>> > My question to you, Mr. Allen, was did YOU actually carry out a
>> >thourough examination of the ENTIRE floor where the introduction columns
>> would have been anchored?
>>
>> No. I posted the following before:
>>
>> >> I do not know if there are any bolt holes anywhere on >>the floor.
>> >>You do not know if there are any bolt holes on the floor.
>> >> I doubt that there are.
>> >>You assert that there are.
>>
>> and the following
>>
>> >> At this point all you and I should be able to agree upon is that
>> >> if you are right about your columns and the floor is in place,
>> >> we should find your bolt holes.
>> >> That is, either the bolt holes are there or the
>> >>floor isn’t.
>>
>> >How did you copme to your “understanding” of the state of the
>> >floor, Mr. Allen? Idle speculation or research?
>>
>> I discussed the state of the floor with several individuals
>> who had the interest and integrity to actually visit the
>> site.

>And _you_ accuse _me_ of making specious claims, Mr. Allen? Tsk tsk. Who,
>extactly, are these “several individuals” who actually visited the ruins
>of Krema II’s L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen?

>> Those who had checked stated that the floor exists.

>Are you confirming, Mr. Allen, that _you_ have no personal knowledge about
>the state of the floor of Krema II’s L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen? That you are
>relying on annoymous and unpublished accounts to base your assumptions on?
>You do realize, Mr. Allen, how suspect this all appears?

>> Furthermore, I believe that the drainage system works and I
>> known that the inside walls are generally intact.

>And your basis for such assumptions, Mr. Allen?
>
>> This would indicate that the original floor is still there waiting for
>> somebody to find bolt holes in it.

>Given that you are relying previous unclear assumptions, Mr. Allen, one
>might be pardoned for being skeptical of your assumption, yes? Perhaps
>you would care to walk through _all_ your assumption, citing all
>corrobarating evidence, step-by-step for us?

>> >> Of course, the amazing point of all this is that neither remains
>> >> of little chimneys or bolt holes on the floor have ever been
>> >> found.
>>
>> >Considering that the “little chimneys” were probably brick,
>> >do you find this suprising Mr. Allen? How can you tell the
>> >bricks from a little chimney apart from bricks in rubble? Or from >bricks
>> in a pile of other bricks elsewhere?

>> Yes, it is suprising. The bricks, (if that is what you want
>> to claim the chimneys were made of) would have been
>> cemented to the roof both to hold them in place and to
>> create a water tight seal to keep rain and snow from
>> going into the room below.

>And. Mr. Allen? Are you asserting that no indications that these “little
>chimneys” now exist on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. And that because
>of this said “little chimneys _never_ existed? Is _that_ what your trying
>to say, Mr. Allen?

>Then please explain the photo of Krema II, taken by the Bauleitung, that
>_clearly_ shows three “little chimneys” on the roof of L.Keller 1
>(_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a). I await what must be a very
>illuminating answer….

>> >But let us not forget, Mr. Allen, that there is a photograph of three
>> >of the “little chinmeys” on the roof of L.Keller 1 taken by the SS; th
>> >ere are Allied aerial photos of four “little chimneys” on the roof of
>> > L.Keller 1; that the inventory receipt for Krema II shows four
>> >”Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrivhtung” (wire mesh introduction devices) and
>> >four “Holzblenden” (wooden covers); and the multiople eyewitness
>> >testimonies confirming their existance and installation. Given all this,
>> >Mr. Allen, your bickering over bolt holes and such appears rather
>> > anti-climatic. To say the least.
>>
>> We have gone over this before, ie. the issue of the relative value
>> of physical evidence vs. other types of evidence.

>And you have avoided giving an acceptable answer, Mr. Allen. In fact, it
>appears that you have _avoided_ given a straight answer _whenever_ you
>paint yourself into a corner….

>Would you please address my origional questions, Mr. Allen? Or will you
>now go into G*wer-Troll mode and suck your head back into your shell,
>spouting sophmoric drivel and insults, instead? That _would_ be
>dissapointing, Mr. Allen. (Not particularly unexpected, but dissapointing
>nonetheless.)

>> I have asked you this question once before; If you have a picture of a
>wall with a hole showing in it but you can inspect the wall and there is
>NO hole,
>> what do you believe, hole or no hole?

>I _believe_, Mr. Allen, that you are substituing sophistry for honest and
>straightforward answers in support of your assertions. In short, Mr.
>Allen, you are dodging the questions put to you.

>> That is, I believe, the basis of the debate between Revisionists and
>> Exterminationists. Of course there are several pictures of the roof of
>> Leichenkeller where NO vent holes can be seen and
>> where they would have shown if they were there

>Perhaps you would care to comment further on this Mr. Allen? After, of
>course, you have addressed the numerable questions _already_ put to you
>that you have so artlessly tried to evade….

>Mark

>posted/e-mailed

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:04:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:08:22 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>said:

>>>>
>>>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>>>[about the alleged harassment of Gutless Giwer]

>>>>>>And I have never seen you identify any of the people, besides Marduk,
>who
>>>>>>you are accusing of harrassing your family (and Marduk’s “harassment”
>>>>>>seems to consist of one or two e-mail messages sent to your son).
>Please
>>>>>>provide evidence that any of the other regular participants have
>harassed
>>>>>>your family, or withdraw your claim.

>>>>>That’s because there was no harassment and no e-mail to his son. But
>>>Giwer
>>>>>knows that.

>>>Note that for the seventh time, Giwer does not deny that the harassment
>was
>>>a lie on his part.

>>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>>>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>>>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and
>post
>>>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>>>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of
>this
>>>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>>>possible, it is feared by him.

>>>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Note that once again, the gutless liar Giwer does not deny that he harassed
>himself and tried to blame others.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for “battle” against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:01:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:04:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>> Then there is the clickable from the Nizkor site, “The Jewish
>>> Defense League”.
>>
>>The Zuendelsite, IHR web site, and CODOH web site are also clickable
>>from the Nizkor site. Do you also assume that we support them as
>>well? I think you must be confused, Mr. Moran, as to the meaning of
>>an “other sites” page. Let me try to explain: it provides links to
>>other sites.
>>
>>Hope this helps.

> Jamie, I notice you avoided comment on the solicited
>clarification in the intro to the JDL declaration. The one about your
>referrence to a photograph of Marc Lemire and your tacit disclaimer
>against violence. What I think, is, Nizkor is trying to be cute by
>employing an inverted suggestion.

Perhaps Nizkor is “distancing” itself from the JDL.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47644 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and “asshole”
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:46:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:50:24 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

>
>> First, differentiate between goals and methods. Some people resort to
>> force to
>> stop same from coming at them. That’s not my usual style (I have the
>> occasional
>> lapse) but it’s an easy one to understand without endorsing it.
>> Unprovoked
>> personal attacks are objectionable to me no matter what their source or
>> target.

> But, to date, you have said nothing about Giwer, L’il Tommy, and the
>Hubers who deal in such attacks regularly.

>> Giwer catches more crap than anyone else I’ve ever seen on this newsgroup.
>> In my observation, he has not initiated the hard talk. When a new contact
>> is civil with him, he remains so to them.

> That is simply untrue. Please note his reaction to Kimberly Alf and the
>lawyer posting under an anonymus number for two recent examples of his
>technique. Giwer began as a trash talkig bigot and then complains that those on
>the receiving end of his lies and malice take offense. It has been my opinion for a
>long time that Giwer has often deliberately attempted to provoke a lawsuit so that
>he can depict himself as a martyr.

>> work. Go ahead and take a free swing, label me whatever you want. I
>> won’t
>> take offense, and then maybe we can get on to something else. 🙂

> I think that you are apologizing for a malicious jerk — in fact a bunch of
>malicious jerks.

> –YFE
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:10:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 7:13:55 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.
>:
>: Do you have a problem with that?
>:
>: Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
>: examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?

>Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.
>That’s why he refers to his ideological opponents as “holohuggers,”

What name would you prefer?

>litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to
>calling several of the female regulars on a.r. “fat broad”.

Only Ostrov. And of course did not read any of here posts about me to
which that was a response. Too busy I guess.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47659 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!oronet!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:36:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:39:37 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47659 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57281 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:96 alt.usenet.kooks:26227

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning
>> the holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>I see — so your spam will increase n-fold. Thanks for warning us.

I told you what would happen BEFORE I started it. You were forewarned.
Perhaps you have a newsfeed problem…

>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?

Lots of things. Shut up McFly for one thing.

Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.

Cease ALL “troll” references.

Good enough for openers?

>It’s clear that you already consider an “attack” to be anything which
>you do not like — for example, a lighthearted tangential reference to
>you as a “troll” is enough to set you off. Or a pun (“Giwerdly Lion”).
>Or a mention of the fact that you are abusing the net.

Precisely. Simply stop it all. It is that simple.

And that means not just what is directed towards me but everything that
is directed towards everyone who happens to disagree with any past or
present version of the holocaust description.

Is that clear enough?

>Even a simple mention of the fact that you engage in ad hominem attacks,
>Mr. Giwer, is enough to trigger your spam finger.

Actually it takes three fingers but only two keystrokes.

Apparently saying
>that someone else engages in ad hominem is itself ad hominem. I guess
>you’re allowed to call my colleague a “simpering bitch,”

Did I say that? That really isn’t my style. It is too subtle. I
usually do better.

as you did
>earlier today, and I’m forbidden from even pointing that out. That
>hardly seems fair, Mr. Giwer.

Fuck fair. Neither was calling me a nazi and an antisemite without
cause which is what started all of this.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch

>So, since you’ve decreed that every form of expression is off-limits
>except that of your friends — what could we do to stop you?

>Posted; not emailed, for reasons explained previously.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
years. This is not your conference. It is for revisionist discussion.

You do not have to leave. You can contribute by critiquing the
revisionist proposals. You folks will be doing a service in that
regard.

The choice is yours. When it all stops there will be nothing for me to
respond to. Therefore it stops. It is all that simple.

And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the newcomers
as quickly as possible.

I accept no excuses.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gibberish…
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:04:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:08:06 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>Johan Carlson wrote:

>>>First of all I would like to say that I’m new in this newsgroup. I spent
>>>yesterday reading through some of the articles and I must say that it
>>>was an astonnishing experience. It really doesn’t take a genius to
>>>realize that Mr. Giwer is an idiot. Furthermore it takes no, or at least
>>>very little knowledge of history to realize that his so called proof
>>>that the gassings never took place is a work of an ignorant.

>> You are obviously not very bright as I have never claimed to
>>prove the gassings did not occur. That is up to those making the
>>claim that there were gassings.

>Can you be more clear ? Do you believe that the gassings occured, or
>not ? without subterfuge or evading ?

My “belief” is contingent upon physical evidence. There is no physical
evidence of gassing.

What can be more clear than that?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:48:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:52:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57283 alt.revisionism:47663 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:97 alt.usenet.kooks:26228

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>([email protected]) quoted my entire article exposing the lies which
>he used to try to defend his outrageous abuse of Usenet.

>He then replied:

>> Nice tantrum but nothing I have posting is outrageous. What is
>> outrageous is that they are all true of Nizkor.

>He then threw on a 15-line sig, just for spam’s sake (see
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty
>for 300 KB of more examples of this).

>That was the total of his reply.

>In short, Mr. Giwer’s response is “I know you are but what am I.”

>OK.

>This thread has been archived as:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/giwer-defends-himself

>Posted; not emailed, because Giwer does not want email from me.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.
Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
how to stop it all?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47664 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, Caught in Anoter Lie, Weasels
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:11:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:15:25 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts. What were the
>> >statements and who made them. You have made the assertions, now
>prove
>> >them. Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L’il Tommy that
>the
>> >Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a “Jewish organization.”
>>
>> > Let’s see where you stand, Matty poo.

> So Matty poo told us where he stands:
>
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: One man’s opinion
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
>>
>> “The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>> particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>> already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>> was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>> political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>> pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>> It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>> [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>> those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

> In other words, Matty poo, refuses to back up his statements. Matty
>poo is a liar.

> –YFE

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?! Man, he gets around. I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at. I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946. Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.

But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice. Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.

Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.
At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say. The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history. It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.

Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 47666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:30:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:34:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer? How about this:
>>
>> >1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>> >identified, documented sources to support your claims.
>>
>> That depends upon whether or not the “documentation game” is going to be
>> played. For example, “Hilberg wrote” does not count nor does “a
>> pharmacist concluded.”

>I think there’s room for some leeway on documentation, depending upon the
>nature of the claim being made. The general “Hilberg discusses…” is OK
>for some points (i.e., a general discussion of Hilberg’s approach), but
>insufficient for specifics (for instance, his estimates of the numbers of
>victims at particular camps). I would also note that most participants
>are fairly scrupulous about citing authors, titles, and page numbers for
>their information.

>THE KEY THING: If someone asks someone else to
>provide specifics on a documentable point, then it’s good form to post
>the specifics. Case in point: I made a general comment about Red Cross
>inspections at Auschwitz, and then, to get the specifics down, I hit the
>books and posted a followup. I am also looking for detailed information on
>the orders to shut down the gas chambers at Auschwitz; I expect to post
>that in the next day or two.

A possible position. However as you have seen the game played here some
derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source be
disproven as though it were graven in stone.

That is unacceptable.

>> >2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging
>> >in insults against others.
>>
>> I will not ignore it. I would have thought that is clear by now.

>It was a suggestion. As mothers everywhere say, why descend to the level
>of a bully?

Mothers are not fathers.

>> >Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the
>> >level of discourse in this group.
>>
>> All by my self?

>Quite frankly, yes. It would be a start; at the very least, it would cut
>down on the number of new-content-free posts emanating from your
>address. Needless to say, I encourage everybody else to play nice as well.

The posts coming from me are in response to other posts to me or about
me as you know. As you know I will not ignore them, I do not see what
point you are trying to make.

>> >I’ll gladly take this “pledge” myself.
>>
>> Or just the two of us?

>Is that an offer to engage in reasonable arguments with me, Mr. Giwer? I
>gladly accept. Perhaps others would like to make similar joint
>agreements with you as well–I’d certainly encourage and welcome it.

There was never a problem with that as you have seen with this exchange.
So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
posting to me and about me?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 06:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 47667 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:17:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 304
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 7:20:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>> Curtis) writes:
>>
>> >>If you think the Giwer-Troll has _opinions_ worth spit, considering the
>> >>absolute bullshit and lies he blows from his lips, whatever benifit of
>> the
>> >>doubt I had about your idoeological bent just went right out the window.
>> >>
>> >>PUBLIC APOLOGY ALERT: I, Mark Van Alstine, do publicly and humbly
>> >>apologize to Mr. Curtis for doubting his obviously warranted warnings
>> >>about Ehrlich606. He was right and I was wrong. I humbly beg Mr.
>> Curtis’s
>> >>forgiveness.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Accepted. Now it is time to start a real discussion here. It does seem
>> >that Ehrlich might be the best game in town at the moment so let’s
>> >keep him honest. 🙂
>>
>> Matt Giwer deserves a lot of respect. He is not trained in history, he
>> does not have a large historical library, a scanner, or access to primary
>> materials. And yet he still scores points, gives as good as he gets, and
>> takes the heat, mostly alone.

>The G*wer-Troll

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

hardly deserves respect. The fact that he is apparantly
>not a trained _anything_ should give him pause to reflect on his
>propensity to be a self-proclaimed “authority” on everything under the
>sun- yet the opposite seems true. Hardly a personality trait that endears
>respect.

>Then there is the fact that he seems to enjoy wallowing in his
>self-imposed ignorance about various issues regarding the Holcaust, while
>cocncoting lies off the top of his head in rationalization of his
>prejudices. That too is hardly a personality trait that endears respect.

>> His lack of accuracy is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>> counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>> authority.

>His “lack of accuracy” is nothing more than you, Ehrlich606, rationalizing
>the G*wer-Troll’s
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

lying in his defense. Why is that? And ” his refusal to
>accept counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>authority?” Oh boy! That’s a fresh one! Why don’t we all stand back while
>the air clears! Ehrlich606, the G*wer-Troll’s

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

“lack of accuracy” (i.e. his
>lies and ignorance) is far from “compensated” by _anything_ he does or
>does not do. As for “appeals to authority, both _you_ and the G*wer-Troll

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>seem to have a taste for that! Namely you both seem to enjoy appealing to
>your _own_ authority! Neither of you seem much concerned about addressing
>the historical works of others. Too constraining, I suppose….

>> I don’t always agree with the language he uses, but his
>> general dynamism, and skepticism, are eminently praiseworthy.

>Really? You mean being an lying, decietful, and insulting S.O.B. is
>praiseworthy? My, I must say, Ehrlich606, you have a weird idea of moral
>fiber!

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>> If I had to endorse an approach to life, I would much rather endorse an
>> approach that was skeptical and questioning, than one which was defensive and
>> harrassing.

>How odd then that ypu choose to defend a bigot

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>and a liar
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

who’s repetoire
>ofargumentative techniques consists of mainly appealing to his own bogus
>authority, refusing to debate the issues on the facts, and running away
>from the issues hurling invective at those who have exposed him as a liar

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>and a fraud.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

>Hmmm. Maybe not so odd after all….

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:05:03 PDT 1996
Article: 57284 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: The GiwerOlympics: Speed-Posting and UDP consideration
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:06:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:09:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

>How long does it take, in Free Agent, to send a post, read another in
>another group, change the From: line in preferences, and send another
>post? Can it be done in four seconds?

>Remember that this is _Free_ Agent, which does not have any of the
>automation features of the full version.

>Anyone agree that it’s more likely that we’re looking at more than one
>person using multiple machines?

>I’m analyzing the GiwerTroll’s spewage for the month of June now. It’s
>quite interesting, when you take a step back. I’ll be issuing about 300
>EMP spam-cancels soon. Of course, the effect is largely symbolic, unless
>and until I write a script to autocancel messages matching a certain
>pattern.

>- -rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/

>From: [email protected]
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:03:45 GMT
>Organization: images incarnate
>Lines: 27
>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>References: <[email protected]>
> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
>X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 6:06:31 PM CDT 1996
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:03:49 GMT
>Organization: images incarnate
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>References:
> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
> <[email protected]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
>X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 6:06:36 PM CDT 1996
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

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>Version: 2.6.2

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========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47672 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:16:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:20:03 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] writes:
>>>> Beyond that, stop reaching. What in fact happened in the US was
>>>> correctly described here, Jewish leaders “distanced themselves” which
>>>> means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
>>>> terrorism of Kahane and the JDL. Or are you really such a novice that
>>>> you have no idea what “distance” means in political terms? Or do you
>>>> think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
>>>> out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?
>>
>>> Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts. What were the
>>>statements and who made them. You have made the assertions, now prove
>>>them. Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L’il Tommy that the
>>>Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a “Jewish organization.”
>>
>>> Let’s see where you stand, Matty poo.
>>
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: One man’s opinion
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
>>
>>”The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>>political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>>pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>>It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>>[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”
>>
>>– U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
>>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>>p.189-190.

> Given that he responded with a completely off topic cite, I’d say he is
> standing in the middle of the room with his pants down on this one. He
> apparantly has no real response to your challange that he provide
> grounding for his assertion.

> Typical.
>>
>>
>>
>>

> daniel david mittleman
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the H*ber: “Never! More!”

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?! Man, he gets around. I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at. I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946. Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.

But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice. Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.

Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.
At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say. The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history. It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.

Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for “battle” against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 01:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 8:23:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>The JDL is no ally of mine.
>>What does this thread have to do with the historicity of the holocaust?
>>Oh, I get it: it’s another way to bash Jews. Some Jews are terrorists,
>>therefore all Jews are terrorists.
>>Regards,
>>Rich Green

> The JDL is plugged on Nizkor, accomodated a link, under
>”anti-racist resources”. Nizkor is a Holocasut promotional page. The
>rest of your raving gets nothing. And I don’t believe you have a
>problem with the JDL. Its obvious your ethnocentrically insane. Thats
>why you ask what the post had to do with the Holocaust, without
>recognizing it yourself, which was obvious.

And as for claims the JDL is not a terrorist organization …

One of their founding five principles …

From their own web site …

BARZEL — IRON

JDL upholds the principle of Barzel — iron — the need to both
move to help Jews
everywhere and to change the Jewish image through sacrifice and all
necessary
means — even strength, force and violence. The Galut image of the
Jew as a
weakling, as one who is easily stepped upon and who does not fight
back is an
image that must be changed. Not only does that image cause
immediate harm to
Jews but it is a self-perpetuating thing. Because a Jew runs away
or because a
Jew allows himself to be stepped upon, he guarantees that another
Jew in the
future will be attacked because of the image that he has
perpetuated. JDL wants
to create a physically strong, fearless and courageous Jew who
fights back. We
are changing an image, an image born of 2,000 years in the Galut,
an image that
must be buried because it has buried us. We train ourselves for the
defense of
Jewish lives and Jewish rights. We learn how to fight physically,
for it is better to
know how and not have to, than have to and not know how.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:06:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:09:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>
>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>What’s the matter? Your “secret techniques” not working as well
>as you had hoped?

What secret? Bad news feed?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 47686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:05:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:09:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>
>> Do you folks really want to continue this?
>
>Mr. Giwer shows his true colors. He has the tactics of a 4-year-old.
>
>So much for the famous 163 IQ.
>
>Sara

>–
>You can’t stand still on freedom’s track,
>if you don’t go forward, you go back.
>You can’t “Giddy-up” by saying “Whoa”
>and sitting on your status quo.
> Pins & Needles

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and “asshole”
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:15:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:18:48 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>> I did. You deleted them, asshole. What kind of stupid game do you
>> think you are playing?

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) replied, in full:

>> Please stick to topics, and do not resort to unprovoked name calling.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) “responded”:

>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT
>>
>> Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
>> close this time?

>I’ve deleted the remainder of Giwer’s recycled crap — this particular
>snippet has been posted 43 times in the last two weeks, and there’s no
>need for me to waste _more_ bandwidth by quoting it. Giwer’s article
>consisted, incidentally, of nothing _but_ this waste of bandwidth.

Bandwidth wasting? That is called the WWW. a decent graphic is worth
literally 10,000 words.

>Now, I thought John Morris’ comment was polite and to-the-point; he
>disapproved of Giwer’s calling someone an “asshole” and wanted to see
>fewer personal attacks on the newsgroup. Yet Giwer responded scornfully
>by reprinting an old, totally unrelated article of his. He has said
>that he reserves the right to waste bandwidth in this way, whenever
>someone insults him or even mentions him.

>Given that, perhaps DvdThomas could explain why he wrote this, about Mr.
>Giwer:

> [Matt Giwer’s] terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not
> personalities. I’d support that aim regardless of who was
> promoting it.
>
> What [Giwer] and others are demanding, not asking for, is a forum
> where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/dthomas/dthomas-on-giwer

>Posted; not emailed to DvdThomas or Matt Giwer, because they have both
>explained, in no uncertain terms, that they don’t want email from me.

>The number 43 is the result given by grepping Giwer’s June 1996 Usenet
>article for ‘^close this time’ — no warranty, express or implied.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 10:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:16:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:19:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>
>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

> I don’t attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma. I attack
>people for lies and intellectual dishonesty. Occasionally that includes my
>supposed allies.

> Why don’t you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
>that I have posted the whole thing? It’s on topic. What are you waiting for?
>Don’t you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
>revisionist theory?

Berg who? Do you have a thread name?

But then are you not the person who discovered a kind of fat with more
than 900 calories per gram?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 11:14:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Lets get this straight (Python, forgive me…)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:11:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:15:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47708 alt.politics.white-power:34837

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >said:
>>
>> >>>Giwer doesn’t find answers. He runs away.
>>
>> >>>–
>> >>>Gord McFee
>>
>> >>>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>> >>>– MR/2 2.26 #331
>>
>> >And here is the proof that he runs away. Good little doggie, that Giwer.

>Bravely bold Matt Giwer
>Brought forth from Netcom.com
>He was not afraid to lie
>Oh Brave Matt Giwer!
>He was not at all afraid to post in various nasty ways
>Brave, brave, brave Matt Giwer

>He was not in the least bit scared to be lying through his teeth
>Or to have his facts all wrong, and his quotes mis-spoken!
>To have his information bad, trolling all who come along
>And his lies all bold and loud, brave Matt Giwer.

>His lies all caught and his true truths all wrong
>And his science knowledge long gone
>And his rationality in doubt
>And his brai…

> Stop! Looks like there’s trolling afoot.

>Brave Matt Giwer ran away No!
>Bravely ran away… I didn’t!
>When truth reared up its noble head
>He bravely turned his tail and fled No!
>Yes brave Matt Giwer turned about I didn’t!
>And gallantly chickened out…

>Bravely taking to his feet I never did!
>He beat a very troll retreat All lies!
>Brave as a rabid dog in heat I never!
>Brave Matt Giwer!

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 11:14:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47709 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:25:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:28:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47709 alt.censorship:87265 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:98 alt.usenet.kooks:26249

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>wrote about Hilary Ostrov, my co-webmaster at Nizkor:

>> Fatbroad speaks again. A spokesrat for a site that censors what it
>> does not like. Quite amusing to be talking about integrity.

>(That was his response in toto; I deleted only previous, quoted,
>material.)

>Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about. Apparently he
>thinks that we deliberately remove relevant material from our archives
>that would not be censorship, of course, but even if it were, we don’t
>do it and he’s welcome to try to show when we have done so.

>But more importantly, he should try to provide a single scrap of
>evidence for his claim: that Nizkor has actually _censored_ anyone
>or anything.

>Note that Giwer has previously made this claim, and retracted it, and
>now he’s making it again. I wrote back on June 11th:

> More importantly — the “Nizkor leaders” and the “holohuggers” had
> nothing to do with this “voice and email harrassment,” this
> “censorship,” this “shut[ting] up some of the guys they don’t like,”
> this “pressures,” this “harrassment of a service provider.”
>
> All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.

> If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post,
> publicly, his proof that the “Nizkor leaders” and/or the
> “holohuggers” have done anything like what he has claimed.

>Giwer replied:

> I have made no such claim. So you could never read such a claim you
> brainless fool.
>
> You are truly an idiot to accuse me of something I did not say.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-and-backpedal-nizkor-censor

>Of course, he _had_ made the claim; someone else had asked whether such
>things were going on and he replied “Certainly.” But he said he never
>said it. Now he’s saying it again.

>So, I repeat my original question: does he have a single scrap of
>evidence?

>Or will he revert to saying that he never said it?

>Posted; not emailed to Mr. Giwer, because he has said he doesn’t want
>to see any email from me.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.

Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
this? All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
time you folks are unable to find those mentions.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 11:14:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who’s Fat and Who ain’t
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:05:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:08:53 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten wrote:

>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>What’s the grand prize, anyway, Gord?

>>A rather thin tome entitled _The Wit and Witticism of Matthias Gottfried
>>Giwer and Saint Thomas Moronicus_.

>Eeeewwww YUK! I withdraw my application!!!!

>”If I can’t dance…..I don’t want to be part of your revolution.”
> Emma Goldman

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 11:14:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47719 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:28:47 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >[email protected] wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>: >: > What about the ADL rabbi who said, “Especially after the
>: >: >Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>: >: >Jews”. Some of these Christians are just little kids.
>: >:
>: >: > Evil little Christian Children.
>: >:
>: >: In the minds of the non-goy all Christians are Nazis. There is no other
>: >: assumption that could lead to the statement.
>:
>: >Would somebody like to file this away against the next time Giwer asks
>: >for proof that he’s an antisemite?
>:
>: Be certain to file away the rabbi’s statement also rather than the usual
>: censorship job that is done here and at Nizkor. It is clear that he is
>: putting the responsibility for his personal holocaust upon the shoulders
>: of Christians in the US.

>In the first place, the Rabbi appears merely to have been commenting on
>the offensive nature of the presumption that Jews need to be “converted”,
>especially in light of the fact that the culture wishing to convert them
>has engaged in two thousand years of persecution against them, culminating
>in the holocaust.

You, too, make the direct connection between Christians and the
holocaust.

As you should be aware, Christians have been much worse upon their
fellow Christians than they ever were on Jews. Or have you met an
Albagensian lately? The last I heard they were all murdered in a single
night. Quite an accomplishment for a mere conspiracy. There were many
others that no longer exist including the original gnostic wing.

As for the need for conversion, that was a teaching of the Christian
sect of Jews long before it was differentiated by Paul. The original
teaching as ascribed to that Jew, Yeshua. It is repeated by his
faithful sidekick, the Jew Simon Peter who, although he approved Paul’s
variation, was not a part of it.

In the second place, Giwer did not say “in the mind of
>the Rabbi in question”–he said “in the minds of the non-goy”. In other
>words, the Rabbi speaks for all Jews, because all Jews think alike.
>Classic antisemitism. Fodder for the ZOG files, if ever I saw it.

When I read of other Jews and in particular Rabbis condemning this
statement you will have grounds for saying they think differently.
Until then, you are the only one making the claim that all Jews think
alike.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 05:40:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57328 alt.revisionism:47725

[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:33:12 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc; emailed “FYI” to various
>>>people whom Giwer calls “hijackers” and several pro-free-speech
>>>acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.
>>
>>>Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
>>>alt.revisionism and “make it useless” to everyone with whom he disagrees.
>>>He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
>>>volume. Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!
>>
>> Jamie boy, the lies of you holohuggers and this lie in particular have
>>been pointed out many times as has been your harrassment of my family.
>>Your repetition of this particular lie is not going to make it true.
>>
>Mr. Giwer, is there is a lie and thus a liar, then it would be you,
>Matt Giwer, for it you indeed did say that your goal is to take alt.
>revisionims and “make it useless” that is a fact, one you cannot deny,
>but you will try, and try. Bringing your family into this your lie,
>thus further compounding your lie, is something only you do so well.
>One need to repeat something to make it so, one only needs to look
>into Dejanews and see for themselves.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 47726 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:04:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>>>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
>>>> Mt. Grynspan, sir.
>>>>
>>>> You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
>>>>alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.

>>>You fool yourself. Several people here could demonstrate their ability to
>take you
>>>on, Matt – with little difficulty. Their problem is not that they lack the
>ability –
>>>merely the experience.

>Mr. Grynspan is wrong. Perhaps not all of them lack the experience and
>perhaps some of them are taking on, and defeating, and controlling, the
>Giwer-bot. All it takes is a little logic and a little Fidonet experience,
>a little research. Hmmm…… does the name Lester ring a bell? Any
>military medical types out there. It’s all so easy.

>Let’s see. Giwer-bot is reduced to reproducing denier spam fed to him
>by….well *we* know, don’t we Matty-bot? He is reduced to dodging articles
>and simply posting his sig-bot. He is obeying orders. He is copying. He
>is being led around by the nose. Why, the Giwer-bot is almost toast.

>> You hope I fool myself. You hope you are not fooling yourself.
>>
>>>> Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.
>>>>
>>>> You have also stated you know how to deal with me.
>>>>
>>>> The following is a challenge.
>>>>
>>>> DO SO.

>Why should Alec cost himself all that money when the job can be done so
>easily?

>>>>

>>>When I’ve completed other tasks. This area is *NOT* one of high priority
>for me
>>>now and, I’m sorry to tell you, such a battle is not worth the time –
>unless you’re
>>>willing to pay what my clients pay me.

>> In the mean time, please cease with the bragging claims that you can do
>>what you will not demonstrate you can do.

>> It does get annoying after a while.

>Ooohhhh! I think the Giwer-bot is MAD!

>> After all, how can you have time for one without the other?

>Stay tuned, sweetie-bot.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47731 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:43:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:46:44 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

>> Of course, it follows that it would be something guarded with great
>> solemnity by those most severely affected by it. Respect the Jewish
>> interpretation of their own history! But, unfortunately, in the past 20
>> years, and I don’t know how much revisionism has had to do with this, the
>> history of the Holocaust has been, in my opinion, marginalized to some
>> extent to the Judaica shelves of libraries and bookstores. I am not sure
>> that that is a good idea, but the dilemma is that if we try to integrate
>> the Jewish perspective into the general secular picture, what happens to
>> the Jewish perspective, the Jewish people, and Judaism in the process? At
>> least we can note that this problem, which I see as a continuation of
>> problems of assimilation _per se_ is over 200 years old.

> Have you read Dawidowicz’s attacks on the teaching of the
>Holocaust? They can be found in a collection of her essays, “What is the Use
>of Jewish History?”

>> Time out! *Holohugger* isn’t degrading. It’s teasing. Although I would
>> tend to agree that — reading Bruce’s comments — that Matt could be more
>> _sensitive_. But you know what? On this board, the more sensitive you
>> are, the easier it is to get your head cut off. It is called, I believe,
>> the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

> “Even a dog distinguishes between being stumbled over and being
>kicked.” — O.W. Holmes (the Younger)

> Giwer kicks.

You wear the sign on your back.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47732 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:46:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:49:26 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Nele Abels
> said:

>>
>>[email protected] wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Nele) wrote:
>>>>Schwächlich… Früher hat er sich mehr Mühe gegeben mit seinen
>Antworten…

>>> I am certain that is something intelligent. Looks like I need to
>>>collect some taglines in German.

>>Try a dictionary. You should find one in your extensive library. Or did
>>you throw it away after you had read it? Oh, I forgot, before you could
>>translate your sentence you would have to change your moral system…

>You don’t seriously think the Giwer-bot makes up his own taglines and sigs,
>do you Nele? He ha slost that ability–he’s being fed.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Matt Giwer fan club?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:20:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>ibokor ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Richard Schultz ([email protected]) wrote:

>: : Shows what a 163 IQ can do for you.

>: You keep repeating he same typo. You keep
>: omitting the decimal point that comes before the 1.

>Well, in the interest of saving bandwidth, I decided to leave out all of
>the zeros between the decimal point and the 1. Actually, I think the
>appropriate math problem here is not (a la Morrison) what is the
>Lorentz-contracted value of Myshkin’s IQ in the Normal Earth People
>reference frame. Rather, we should be asking, “if it were possible to
>make a zero the size of a hydrogen atom, would there be enough room in
>the universe to write down the number of zeros between the decimal point
>and the first non-zero digit of Myskin’s IQ”?

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>Look outside the window, there’s a woman being grabbed.
>They’ve dragged her to the bushes, and now she’s being stabbed.
>Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain.
>But Monopoly is so much fun, I’d hate to blow the game.
> -Phil Ochs
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47734 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:27:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 6:30:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:
>>

>> There is clearly no difference between the JDL and the church burners
>> and they are much, much worse than the citizen milias.
>
>Really? What destructive measures have the JDL taken here in America that
>equal or surpass the henious church-burners?

Now why would you care to limit it to America? Is not the JDL active in
Canada also?

>How many places are the JDL holed up, in armed defiance of the US Government?

Never heard of any militia group doing that.

>I am NOT defending the JDL, by the way, merely wondering about your rather
>bizarre assertions.

Read about what they did to Zundel in Canada. Or is that made up?

>> >Please provide evidence that “many Jews” defended him. Pleae provide the
>> >names of those “many” Jews.
>>
>> You have tried to play this game before. No, I will not research the
>> papers to show you what you should have read at the time and would not
>> read if I found gave you references.

>Simple translation, “Because! I! Say! So! I made all this up and have no
>way to verify it, so I’ll turn and accuse YOU!”

Rather it is like you demanding references to the Waco massacre.

>There ARE no references, Mr. Giwer. If there were, you would plaster them
>all ober here.
>
>He who asserts must prove.

That never appears to apply to your favorite gas chambers. Why start
now?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47735 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:08:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 7:11:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>: >He does that, and more. When I first began participating in this NG I
>: >approached Mr. Giwer with an honest curiosity toward his views, informing
>: >him fully about my natural bias against those unorthodox. He responded by
>: >attacking my character, his only position being that if I did not agree
>: >with him that I was then decietful, ignorant and unworthy of his attention.
>:
>: That of course is a lie that belies your intention in the approach,
>: dumbbroad.

>…and herewith Giwer demonstrates both his honesty and his courageous
>refusal to engage in argument by personal attack. Thanks, Matt–you’re
>an example to us all.

You are welcome.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47736 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:42:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:45:55 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(borowsky) writes:

>>> This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human
>nature.
>>As I
>>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>>day he died.
>>

>I can understand what Matt is saying to an extent here. But you have to
>allow people to sublimate their grief when they feel it is appropriate.
>It is an individual and personal thing. For those of us who don’t feel it
>anymore, or as strongly, or never as strongly as others, we really should
>not judge.

In keeping with your analogy of sublimating grief, even at that level,
given a 75 year average life span, at least 2/3s of the people
sublimating in public were not even born until after 1945. It is not
clear why there is any grief to sublimate for them.

>>So you do have an explanation for it– almost identical to the one I
>offered
>>above: you believe that some people have too much emotional investment
>>(& you hint political investment too, but this is conspiracy & you said.
>..)
>>in the Holocaust to listen to your version of events. You’ve been saying
>it
>>for a while now (& it was inevitable that you did). This has been the
>>implicit
>>critique you have been making; otherwise, what point would there be in
>>degrading people with `hologhugger’?
>>

>Time out! *Holohugger* isn’t degrading. It’s teasing.

Actually, the genesis of holohugger is much more mundane. Early on I
made the mistake of saying that Jews were supporting the holocaust. The
immediate response was to trot out the token Goy, Ken McVay, OBE.
Therefore I came up with a more inclusive term.

Although I would
>tend to agree that — reading Bruce’s comments — that Matt could be more
>_sensitive_. But you know what? On this board, the more sensitive you
>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off. It is called, I believe,
>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

And “sensitive” is in fact another appeal to “shut up.”

“If you were more sensitive, you would not hurt people’s feelings by
saying such things.” It is reminiscent of the “tears” argument. The
absurdity is that this is applied by the 2/3 that were not even born
before it was all over, whatever it really was.

And if one refuses to be silenced by that argument then one is
“insenstive” or some other hippy touchy-feely condemnation.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47738 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WAR TIME ATROCITY PHOTOS
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:05:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:08:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 11:59:21, [email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>>Institute for Historical Review
>>PO Box 2719
>>NewPort Beach CA 92659
>>$18.00 plus 10% for shipping
>>
>>You have nothing to lose but your chains!
>>
>Mr. Widmann is that the same IHR that had to pay Mel Marmelstein a
>large sum of money??? Hmm, is that the organization once headed by
>willis carto?? The willis carto that was legally found to be an
>ANTISEMITE, is that the one??? Is that the organization that peddles
>the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion?? Is that the same IHR
>that is currently involved in litigation that is depleting the large
>bequest it received??

>Are you a shill for the IHR??

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:34:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In , [email protected] (Mark
>Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>>> Ostrov) writes:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Oh, how disappointing. I found Mr. Van Alstine’s post quite
>>> >informative. And I was looking forward to the “reasoned response”
>>> >that Mr. Ehrlich prides himself on. But I see that in his reply,
>>> >Mr. Ehrlich deleted all but one paragraph of Mr. Van Alstine’s
>>> >reasoned and factual discussion, without indicating that he had done
>>> >so. And cobbles a very flimsy excuse not to respond to the substance.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> What is there to respond to?

>>More to the point, what is Mr. E _capable_ of repsonding to?

>>Why nothing, obviously!

>It does occur to me (since I notice that there are an awful lot of
>EIOU’s hanging about in the ether) that perhaps Mr. E. is too busy at
>the moment dressing the troll to whom he sold his soul. And I do
>wonder how long it will take him to learn – as we have known for quite
>some time – that you can dress up a troll, but you just can’t take him
>anywhere.

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:14:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:17:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>
>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer? How about this:

>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>identified, documented sources to support your claims.

That depends upon whether or not the “documentation game” is going to be
played. For example, “Hilberg wrote” does not count nor does “a
pharmacist concluded.”

>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging
>in insults against others.

I will not ignore it. I would have thought that is clear by now.

>Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the
>level of discourse in this group.

All by my self?

>I’ll gladly take this “pledge” myself.

Or just the two of us?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47748 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:20:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:23:45 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>I think this would be a valuable idea (no irony intended), because then you would
>actually present _texts_ and not only cut-and-paste quotations of other people’s posts.
>I prefer having something to base a reply on, as you probably know.

Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated Keren
spams would it not?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:52:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:56:11 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.
>: >That’s why he refers to his ideological opponents as “holohuggers,”
>:
>: What name would you prefer?

>I would prefer “Lord High Mayor of the Realm of the Musk Ox”, but
>that’s just me.

>: >litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to
>: >calling several of the female regulars on a.r. “fat broad”.
>:
>: Only Ostrov.

>No, not only Ostrov–McFinVayStein, too. Giwer also refered to a
>relative newcomer to the group, who had engaged in no invective
>whatsever, as “dumb broad”.

Dumb broad is the other one. Finstin.

>: And of course did not read any of here posts about me to
>: which that was a response. Too busy I guess.

>Much. I’m plotting the overthrow of Western Society, you know.

>Doesn’t matter, anyway. Neither Hillary, Laura nor Kimberly has ever,
>to my knowledge, held herself up as a fearless crusader against the
>evils of argument by personal invective. You talk the talk, Matt,
>you gotta walk the walk.

Thank you, Jesse Jackson.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47750 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:50:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 11:53:30 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (william
>c anderson) wrote:

>>[email protected] wrote:

>>: They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.
>>:
>>: Do you have a problem with that?
>>:
>>: Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
>>: examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?

>>Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.
>>That’s why he refers to his ideological opponents as “holohuggers,”
>>litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to
>>calling several of the female regulars on a.r. “fat broad”.

>Indeed, Mr. Anderson, he is responding just as we have programmed him
>to. He’s incapable of doing anything different. But he was getting
>bored with that particular boorish invective. So we let him use his
>imagination to come up with another one. Took him about 48.75 hours
>of deep thought, according to our records. I’m certain you will be
>able to spot the result when you see it.

>hro

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for “battle” against evil Christians
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:10:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:13:34 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>> Any links provided by Nizkor to any revisionist pages is one of
>> mutual accomodation.

>Please rewrite this for clarity so that we can understand exactly
>what you are lying about, and then either try to prove it, or
>retract it. Thanks.

>> Revisionists are the adversaries of Nizkor, and the JDL is
>> Nizkor’s ally.

>Prove or retract.

>> Nizkor does not include a link to any revisionist page
>> out of pure voluntary will

>Prove or retract.

>> nor would I say do any of the above that
>> Jamie cites.

>Rewrite for clarity.

>> It is a sort of forced mutual agreement.

>Prove or retract.

>> I take Jamie’s reply as a ‘no comment’ as to what was posted.

>I suspect that few people care whether Mr. Moran understands what
>I write. I know that I have better ways to spend my time than
>trying to explain with words he can understand.

>Nizkor is opposed to violence, and whether hypocritical antisemites
>like Mr. Moran are capable of understanding that is really
>immaterial to me.

>Posted/emailed.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

By your “title” you are at best a flunky how just recently learned how
to do a background.

What business do you have speaking for Nizkor unless you are more than a
flunky?

Get Overtaken By Events out here to speak for the site. He is the only
one with any authority to do so.

You. get back in your bunker.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:09:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 7:12:31 PM CDT 1996
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> FATBOT
>> >
>> >This from the man who complains about name-calling.
>> >
>> >Pot. Kettle. Fat.
>> >
>> >Sara
>>
>> Cute. You must feel like you are an internet old timer now. Response
>> to insult is insult. You may continue if you wish.

>Or, in Giwer’s case (which I can prove) response to serious
>questions, inquiries and comments is insult.

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:03:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:06:26 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> Poor me. I just don’t have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>> the subject. Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>> people you folks can get to in an instant?

>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn’t first understood
>what you told with “mess of psyrinks”. All the psychiatrists that I
>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>always classified in the first quarter.

>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can’t
>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>ridiculous. I don’t find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.

I have serious problems with your restatement also. I did not say can
not anything. I said do not. I have no idea what you are trying to say
with “only in fear of”.

It would appear whatever you asked had no relationship to what I said.

But primarily, I was questioning that you “polled” anyone and implying
that you made it up.

Is that clear enough?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:03:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:06:46 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M
>Huber) said:

>>

>>>>>Matt, the holocaust is historical fact; just because it gives your
>>>>>political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>>>>>happened will make it so.

>>There is no such thing as historical ‘fact’.

>Well, that just about sums it up for the H*ber spawn.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47755 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars, The Series begins [Preface]
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:37:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:40:33 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Gord McFee ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M
>: Huber) said:
>:
>: >
>: >Ride with us as we lower ourselves into the slime at the bottom of life
>: >where the V*rmin wriggle , those who have stolen YOUR names and laid
>: >claim to the 5,000 year heritage of the brave Semites of the House of
>: >Judea. They are the GRAVES, the McVEYs and the McFEEs of the world,
>: >bringing havoc out of order, and ruin out of 10,000 years of White
>: >Heritage.
>:
>: Yeehah! Those fanatical Jews Graves, McVay and McFee. Oyvey! On we go, to
>: capture and torture the H*ber spawn.
>:
>: Glad to make the list, H*ber spawn.

>Damn! I never make these lists. Can’t I help to bring ruin our of 10,000
>years of White Heritage too, Gord? Huh? Can’t I? Please?

>Bill
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47756 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars, The Series begins [Preface]
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:37:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:40:48 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M
>Huber) said:

>>
>>Ride with us as we lower ourselves into the slime at the bottom of life
>>where the V*rmin wriggle , those who have stolen YOUR names and laid
>>claim to the 5,000 year heritage of the brave Semites of the House of
>>Judea. They are the GRAVES, the McVEYs and the McFEEs of the world,
>>bringing havoc out of order, and ruin out of 10,000 years of White
>>Heritage.

>Yeehah! Those fanatical Jews Graves, McVay and McFee. Oyvey! On we go, to
>capture and torture the H*ber spawn.

>Glad to make the list, H*ber spawn.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47757 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kinds of holocausts
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:43:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:46:52 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>> You are not good at imitation. You should come up with your own from
>>scratch. The exercise would not hurt you either.

>Gads! Look who’s talkin’! The guy that does whatever I will. The guy who
>copied my mantra. The guy who can’t even write his own posts. And *he*
>talks of imitation? It is to laugh.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

0

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first “denier” was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:01:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:05:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ursus Major) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >Raven, we won’t decide who is stupid here but what is written below
>> >might help some other people decide who is really the stupid one.
>> >
>> >”Hoess had a different system to number the gas chambers, which he
>> >labeled crematories. Hoess counts the four gas chambers in Birkenau as
>> >numbers I to IV. The Auschwitz Museum counts all the gas chambers as
>> >follows: number 1 was the building across from the SS hospital in
>> >Auschwitz itself; numbers II through V were in Birkenau; the red farm
>> >house and the white farmhouse were called Bunkers I and II by Hoess
>> >respectively. Altogether there were seven buildings used for the Final
>> >Solution. The numbering used by Hoess has been changed in the text to
>> >facilitate the reader’s understanding.”
>> >
>> >This should tell the untutored that historians have renamed the items
>> >for ease of discussion and have since settled on a numbering system.
>> >Hoess couldn’t have known how historians would treat the gas chambers
>> >and their numbering in 1946. Historians do this so that everyone can
>> >write and speak about the same thing without confusion. I realize that
>> >your goal is to confuse.
>> >
>> >Mike Curtis
>> >Mike Curtis
>>
>> An honest mistake! People being tortured sometimes get their facts
>> mixed up: like whether the flew to the witches’ sabboth on a broom
>> or rode there on the back of a goat.

>And who said Ho”ss made a “mistake” when numbering the Kremas? You? Uh huh.

>As to Ho”ss getting his “facts mixed up” perhaps you’d be suprised to find
>out that his coerced testimony taken by the British, on his capture, was
>nearly _identical_ to his later testimony given before the IMT at
>Kaltenbrunner’s trial? Amazing, eh? Ho”ss wasn’t tortured or coerced for
>his testimony before the IMT (or later in Poland). In fact, Ho”ss, in his
>memoirs talks about this (and his imprisonment in Poland).

>Even more amazing, later, when Ho”ss wrote his memoirs while in custody in
>Poland, he _retracted_ the number he gave the IMT for the death toll at
>Auschwitz (2.5 million) and gave a _lower_ death toll (1.3 million). Some
>coercion! Yessiree, “forcing” Ho”ss to recant and give a _lower_ death
>toll….

Do you not find it a touch interesting that he wrote those “memoirs” in
one month while conducting his own defense? Do you not find it
interesting that that “memoirs” were in fact his own death warrant but
were not introduced by the prosecutions?

Have you never asked why he was not accused at Nuremberg? Can you
explain that?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:02:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:05:41 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>>>> Alec, old buddy, please respond if you are ready.
>>>>

>>>Sorry, Matt, I’m busy with important things. Taking you on is merely a
>>>demonstration of greater ability and that I have already proven elsewhere.

>>>When I have time, I’ll demonstrate it again. Your technique and skills
>have
>>>deteriorated, so it shouldn’t take long.

>> Whenever you are ready.

>Gads! I sense a twosome of trolls is in the offing.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 13:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:42:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:46:08 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>
>> Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>>
>> For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>>
>> A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>>After much crying and charging of “anti-Semitism” and “neo-Nazism”
>>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.

> BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
> were exterminated at Auschwitz. Note that Tommy does not provide
> historical citations for his claim – he never does when he reposts this
> drivel.

It is an amazing position that historians know better than an impartial
court with an army of investigators determined just after the war.

That individual historians without a fraction of the resources can find
differently is a monument to weaseling out of the findings of the
kangaroo trials at Nuremberg and nothing less.

> >Among those dedicated to
>>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at.
>>
>> As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>>
>> ——–
>>
>> “For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>>Shouldn’t the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>>are much lower than previously thought?”
>>*(“well over” meaning 4 million)

> BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context. In
> context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
> deniers. What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.
> What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
> explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
> by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
> to 1,500,000 in different studies.)

> You get the point. The rest of Tommy’s lies are deleted.

In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 14:57:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:17:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 1:20:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:

>>[email protected] wrote:

>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>>What’s the matter? Your “secret techniques” not working as well
>>as you had hoped?

>Is he still here, Keith? Oh, yes! I do recall seeing a G*WER
>REPORT earlier today… looks like he’s still here, but
>running out of steam. Perhaps his alterposters tired of the
>game, and left the Giwerdly Lion to his own manure pile.

Good only Overtaken By Events shows up only to post the slurs while his
dumbass flunkies he has permitted to call themselves “co-webmasters”
pretend to speak for Nizkor when in fact they are only self-aggrandizing
flunkies.

>(Actually, it’s sort of pathetic… “do you folks really
>want to continue this” means he’s getting weary – he’s the
>only one playing – with himself, so to speak.)

>–
>Nizkor Canada | Shofar FTP Archives
>———————–| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 14:57:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli’s Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:24:11 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran wrote:

>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>> Holocaust eyewitness testimonies are like Holocaust photographs,
>>they do more to undo the story than to support it.

>Mr. Moran is incorrect here. While I have noted some parts of this
>testimony that I find inconsistent, one should not expect every witness
>to be omniscient. Witnesses make factual errors on details that does
>not mean the overall picture is wrong.

>Mr. Moran, have you ever witnessed a speech by President Clinton?
>What color tie was he wearing?

I have witnessed via TV speeches by Clinton. Never have I seen him
levitate nor any other impossible in reality event, although I am
certain liberals will swear to levitation or some such impossible thing.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 14:57:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:32:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:35:39 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] compared himself to Dr. Keren:

>> Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated
>> Keren spams would it not?

>Mr. Giwer, you have sent almost half a megabyte worth of articles to
>the net in less than two weeks, none of which contain a single byte
>of text which has not been posted previously.

>Almost 500,000 bytes, and not a single one of them is new:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

>In two weeks.

>The figures speak for themselves.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.

But as you know they were all in response to mindless attacks on me.

So why do you complain about my response rather than the attacks?

Could it be you are biased in some manner?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 14:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: happens all the time
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:31:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:34:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> UNKNOWING VICTIM. Eva Langto, a San Francisco housewife, went to the
>> >> Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. recently, and, as all visitors,
>> >> was handed a folded card with the name and birthday of a holocaust
>> >> victim. When Mrs. Langton opened her card, she was astonished to read:
>> >> “Eva Heyman, February 13.” Mrs. Langton was born Eva Heyman on February
>> >> 13 in Berlin
>>
>> >The point being…?
>>
>> How many others?
>>
>> Again it brings up back to how the numbers were established.
>
>Uh, excuse me, folks, but the entire premise of this is WRONG. Not unusual
>for Mr. Giwer, who has never been to the Museum, and therefore does not
>know that MANY of the cards handed out are NOT of victims.
>
>Some are victims. Some are survivors. Some are soldiers.
>
>Yet another example of Mr. Giwer’s inability to understand or bother to
>learn basic facts.
>
>And he says *we’re* unbelievable?!

Looks like she was rather surprised also.

She must not have been briefed either.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 14:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:39:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:43:05 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> From their own website…
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>are Jewish sources.
>>
>> Don’t bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>from their own site. We all know that it what it is.

> Yes. Off-topic. I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>track?

It has been clearly pointed out that Nizkor is clearly a subject here.
I have even used their files to deal with the current form of the myth.

>> It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.

>[Poem snipped]

> Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
>Convention.

A death threat however disguised is still a death threat.

>> It also appears they want this man dead.
>>
>>JDL in America
>>
>> David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>>
>>
>>By Robert J. Newman
>>
>>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>>deception. Just like a
>>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>>his venom to
>>innocent victims.
>>
>>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>>denier of
>>the Six Million Jews.

> Of course, the revisionists haven’t liked him too much since he
>announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
>built and used at Natzweiler.

> I wonder if he has any friends left at all.

I could care less. They clearly appear to want him dead.

>[remainder deleted]

> Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
>newsgroup? I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?

The Gang of Six is clearly on topic here until the coordinated effort
stops.

> Any cremation computations yet? Or any reaction to my article in
>rebuttal to Berg’s paper?

What is your problem here? Still can’t reconcile that pure jewish fat
in the Hebrew Union sausage?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 17:20:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 03:56:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 10:59:30 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> BEHOLD THE ABSURD

>>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>>trying to escape and killed them.
>> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
>> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
>> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

>Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
>will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
>years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
>any other “years” the witness testified to.

Every three hours, three minutes per boxcar load.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 17:20:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:56:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>[deleted]

>>> Giwer went this route with McFee once. All it did was make Giwer look
>>> stupid. One has to wonder why he is going this route again…

>>I rather think the answer is quite simple, Mr. Mittleman. Giwer seems to
>>excel at perpetual recycling – of himself, his modes and his lies. The
>>very best efforts of cobblers and ghost-writers cannot succeed in helping
>>him overcome this handicap. Perhaps they’ll eventually realize that, as
>>we have known for quite some time: You can dress a troll up, but you just
>>can’t take him anywhere.

>I am not so sure if Giwer excels at this trait, but there is no doubt that
>he is unable to control it. Part of the reason why it is so easy to
>manipulate him.

>You are, of course, aware of the following?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 17:20:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47807 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:03:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord McFee) writes:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>said:
>>
>>> Whenever you are ready.
>>
>>Gads! I sense a twosome of trolls is in the offing.

>Hardly.

>When I have time, just watch.

>Matt is easy – if you know how.

>And I do.

>The only thing is that I’m busy and can only type the occasional message for a
>while.

>Matt’s self-opinion to the contrary, he really isn’t high on my list of priorities.

As I have noted your constant statements of this without demonstration
become very annoying. It is like McFly claiming he can use a keyboard
and chew gum at the same time.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 17:20:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question: How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:31:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:35:08 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Keith Morrison ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] wrote:
>:
>: > As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>: > Hitler on that subject. It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>: > work. It is race neutral.
>:
>: Race neutral? I’m sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>: who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>: anything about National Socialism and its history.

>Giwer doesn’t have to know anything about National Socialism in order to
>pronounce upon it, just as he doesn’t have to know anything about history,
>law, chemistry or magnetic recording technology in order to give the
>definitive accounts of them. He is Giwer. Resistance is futile.

And you, on the other hand, are an expert in all such matters so that
you can judge. Or am I mistaken in the position you are taking?

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 18:31:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47814 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:57:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:01:07 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Chuck Ferree wrote:

>> Chuck Ferree writes:
>>
>> Ehrlich606, come on, fella, what the hell are you doing? You like
>> banging your noggin against trees? Don’t it ring your chimes a lot?
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>> Ehrlich606 wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>> > Curtis) writes:
>>
>>
>> >
>> > >>
>> > >>Why don’t we start with the level of honor shown by people who
>refuse to play fair and openly, like everyone else. (Except a few
>chickens)
>> clips
>>
>> Talk about pointless statements. Jeez!!

>Indeed. Mr. E seems to be excelling at pointless statements lately. Must
>be the “new” image he’s trying to cultivate. Making pointless statements
>must be helpfull in sucking-up to the G*wer-Troll….

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 18:31:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2: Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:26:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 12:29:25 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Keith Morrison writes:

>> …assuming that revisionist/deniers actually have a point, how can
>> you reasonably come to the conclusion that [the Holocaust] was
>> greatly exaggerated *without* invoking some kind of conspiracy to
>> alter the truth?

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> As to a *conspiracy* let’s keep in mind that the Soviet Union was
>> until very recently a closed society, and whatever the apparatus came
>> up with was the truth. We know that they faked materials to get John
>> Demjanjuk. We know that they faked materials about Katyn Forest. We
>> also know that they faked materials that were used at Nuremberg, at
>> the very least, the solemn declarations that a lot more people died
>> at the exterminations than we hold today. Are we all done with
>> revising the truths of the past, of the Holocaust? I don’t _think_
>> so. That’s all.

>Let me give some background to the question, if I may, so that we all
>understand the full impact what’s being asked. Keep in mind that the
>denier “theory” is as follows:

> 1. No plan or policy to exterminate European Jews.
> 2. No gas chambers used in said alleged extermination effort.
> 3. The number murdered was far less than six million
> (usually given as 0.6 to 1.0 million at the most).

And why is it you never state it correctly? That there is no physical
evidence for your gas chambers is much more correct.

>To even consider the possibility that these things are true, without
>supposing a massive conspiracy to forge, plant and distort evidence, and
>to coerce testimony from hundreds of inmates and SS, is preposterous.

What physical evidence?

>I spent a little while talking about this in QAR 1, which I’ll throw out
>for public discussion. I’ve ellipsised out the parts that digress from
>the main thrust, which concerns the conspiracy theory.

> …consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the
> testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is
> automatically dismissed as unconvincing.

Which of course falsely assumes that every single inmate reported
gassing.

This total dismissal of
> inmates’ testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the
> Nazis’ own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of
> Holocaust-denial.

Testimony produced by the Russians is not considered legimate outside of
Russia save since they figured out what democracy was all about. Why
would you accept it from earlier?

> This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the
> attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a
> secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and
> forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war,
> they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.

There you go again, making up the conspiracy charge when it is clearly
made in Russia by folks expert in show trials and falsified evidence.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 18:31:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:05:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pfk9 <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:08:31 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>> Poor me. I just don’t have the access to a mess of psyrinks to poll on
>>the subject. Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>>people you folks can get to in an instant?

>Dear me. I do hope Mr. McVay is out there somewhere, able to translate this
>latest contribution. A “psyrink”.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 18:31:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:59:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:02:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected]ry.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: You, too, make the direct connection between Christians and the
>: holocaust.

>No, not direct–but it’s hard to deny that the pervasive antisemitism
>which, over hundreds of years, had built up throughout Western society
>was often nourished and encouraged by the church. Christians are not
>to blame for the holocaust, but the church as an institution bears some
>responsibility for the climate that allowed it to happen.

Which is of course nonsense. The Church was merely a part of the feudal
system just as everything else was. The same religion was simply one of
many requirements of fealty to the next guy up the pecking order.

>: As you should be aware, Christians have been much worse upon their
>: fellow Christians than they ever were on Jews. Or have you met an
>: Albagensian lately? The last I heard they were all murdered in a single
>: night. Quite an accomplishment for a mere conspiracy. There were many
>: others that no longer exist including the original gnostic wing.

>The Cathari, or Albigensians, were gradually suppressed over a period
>of about two hundred years–not “murdered in a single night,” as Giwer
>asserts.

Who were the one’s in France that were gotten in a single night?

Regardless, it’s difficult to see why the fact that the church
>has persecuted heretics and schismatics in any way palliates the
>persecution of Jews. If there were any Cathari around, I’d be surprised
>if they didn’t find proselytism distasteful.

One has to wonder how you think they spread in the first place. Without
proselytism?

>: As for the need for conversion, that was a teaching of the Christian
>: sect of Jews long before it was differentiated by Paul. The original
>: teaching as ascribed to that Jew, Yeshua. It is repeated by his
>: faithful sidekick, the Jew Simon Peter who, although he approved Paul’s
>: variation, was not a part of it.

>In what way does this make it less distasteful?

It gives you its origin from within the Jewish religion. Perhaps if
Saul had not fallen off his horse and finished the job he started …

>: >In the second place, Giwer did not say “in the mind of
>: >the Rabbi in question”–he said “in the minds of the non-goy”. In other
>: >words, the Rabbi speaks for all Jews, because all Jews think alike.
>: >Classic antisemitism. Fodder for the ZOG files, if ever I saw it.
>:
>: When I read of other Jews and in particular Rabbis condemning this
>: statement you will have grounds for saying they think differently.

>In other words, every time a Jew says something, every other Jew has
>to weigh in at once with a denial or be forever associated with the
>words of his coreligionist. Giwer, do you really not understand why
>this sort of statement appears antisemitic?

Where have you been? I have seen the game played too many times to miss
it. It also expresses itself in tempering any criticism of fellow Jews
or “our enemies will use it against us.” You may never have heard such
remarks but I will be surprised if you make that claim.

It is rather similar to Reagan’s Rule, do not speak ill of a fellow
Republican. That is hardly an “anti-Republican” observation. But when
it comes to making the same sort of observation about Jews, it suddenly
becomes antisemitic.

Of course, the ball is still in your court to show that the equivalent
of Reagan’s Rule has been violated by Jews. However, you have chosen
the standard response, rather than address the message, you attack the
messenger.

>: Until then, you are the only one making the claim that all Jews think
>: alike.

>I am? Were did I make such a claim?

You are the one who introduced the idea that the rabbi speaks for all
Jews, not me.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 22:15:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:02:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?
>> Lots of things. Shut up McFly for one thing.

> You place Ken’s postings in the same category as the below?
>I know Ken flames, but he has also posted some very relevant material.

>> Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.
>> Cease ALL “troll” references.
>> Good enough for openers?

> How’s about calling Ken by his proper name?

What do you think his name is?

> Derek
>–
>Derek Bell [email protected] WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
> Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
> _The Rejected Statement_

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 22:15:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47843 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He was Blowing Smoke
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:08:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>> > That’s a lie. Produce those “legalistic” statements. You’ve made the
>> >assertion, Matty poo, now prove it.

> To which Matty poo responrded:

>>
>> “The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>> particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>> already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>> was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>> political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>> pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>> It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>> [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>> those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

> We are now agreed that Giwer knew of no such statements. He lied
>again.

>> > L’il Tommy, whose outright lies and blantent anti-Semitism, you defend
>> >has claimed he can produce “hunreds” of examples of support. I challenge him
>> >to do so.
>>
>> He will take care of his statements and I will take care of mine.

> Since Giwer did not “take care’ of his statements, we are all agreed that
>Matty poo lied., He’s very good at that.

> –YFE
>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Tue Jul 2 22:15:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47845 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forging Ahead
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:11:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

>Rudenko?! Man, he gets around. I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can be
>steamed at. I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>paragraph.

From the late 30s to 1981, a 40+ year career and a General in
1946. Myself I would be looking for a father and son operation or
coincidence.

But it is correct that the KGB and its many predecessor
organization were heavily into forgery sometimes to the point where you
can get the impression that when there was to particular objective they
kept their hands in it just for practice. Another section was into
bribery for disinformation and started the infamous AIDS was a US germ
warfare story.

Given that the Soviets generally copied the Tzarist government
bureaucracies I would not be surprised to find this a centuries old
specialization.
At times the clumsiness of the forgeries is laughable but
usually good enough for people who expect to read what they say. The
serious work generally requires other sources to indicate it is forged,
that being the reference to a lack of archival history. It is also why
I occasionally point out the lack of a chain of custody of the evidence
being presented at the IMT.

Even actively trying to avoid watching the OJ trial everyone
should have noticed how important the chain of custody is in any trial.
Of course I have never seen the raw IMT records but neither have I heard
any reference to anyone who actually recovered any record or any other
link in the chain of custody.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47850 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:07:02 GMT
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References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>”My opinions, the
>only opinions
>worth having.”
> M. Giwer

>”Loquientiae multum,
>sapientiae parum.”
> Sallust

> A question of appropriatness

> Is it fitting to introduce contributions to this newsgroup which
>base on the essays published at Mr. Giwer’s web-site? Would the
>open use of these often senselessly polemic texts mean in itself
>an unjustified attack on an author who would be exposed and ridiculed
>out of context? Or would pointing at these texts lead the discussion
>away from the topic “holocaust-revisionism” and to different matters
>who certainly would need correction, but are irrelevant anyway?
>These questions need careful consideration.

> It would be tempting and easy to take over the ductus of the
>”revisionists” and to demolish Mr. Giwer’s texts in a highly
>effective but polemic way. Indeed, some “traditionalists” try to
>fight fire with fire and to meet the holocaust-deniers with their
>own weapons. Often enough, such confrontations mutate to an exchange
>of vulgar outbursts beyond every decency. This has to be avoided by
>all means. I myself am not completely free of guild on that account.
>For the sake of unnecessary sarcasm, in my contribution dealing with
>Mr. Giwer’s feeble attempts as an student of literature, I did not
>deal sufficiently with the point I wished to make. I did not
>elaborate sufficiently on Mr. Giwer’s false conception of the
>academic discussion and on his discoursive autism. Now, I think the
>tone of my essay was inappropiate, yet I still think its intention
>is justified.

> Is it therefore possible to find a general criterium which helps
>to discern in what boundaries text like those by Mr. Giwer may be
>taken into the discussion of this newsgroup? To answer this, the
>present discussion itself has to be regarded. The topic of this
>newsgroup, “Holocaust-revisionism”, is a historical topic. I could
>be expected that the discussion would be done following the methods
>of the historian: use of printed or photographical sources with
>complete annotations, their interpretation following a rational and
>comprehensible argumentation, leading to a comprehensive thesis
>which is offered the public for further discussion. Already a short
>glance at the articles posted here shows that there is nothing like
>that. From the side of the “traditionalists” a multitude of
>sources and commentaries is given frequently, but unfortunately not
>always. The untiring work of Dr. Keren is especially important here.
>The answer from the “revisionist” side, overwhelmingly often by
>Mr. Giwer himself, exhaust themselves most times in denying with
>one or two lines of own text isolated points, often of minor impor-
>tance. Own quotations of sources can nearly never be found with
>”revisionists”, if this is the rare case, they are often enough
>torn out of their context or (knowingly?) misunderstood. Often,
>the discussion is pushed on scientific grounds by the “revisionists”,
>in the wrong assumption that historiographic methods are identical
>to scientific methods, and that therefore induction and assumption
>are valid to the same extent as in science. Many times, the
>”revisionist” discourse gets completely lost in the playing grounds
>of sophistic speculations. The reason for this is of course that
>there is no supporting material for holocaust-deniers because there
>can be no doubt that holocaust has happened. But another reason is
>a special “revisionist” concept of history.

> The discussion over the last two weeks has been symptomatic for
>this particular view on history. One utterance by Mr. Giwer was
>especially memorable for me. He depicted Dr. Keren’s posts quoting
>the testimonies of witnesses of the SS crimes as completely
>irrelevant. On the first sight, such a remark is extremely
>astonishing. Such testimonies are historical sources, even if they
>are subjective and therefore have to be qualified carefully by
>the historian. Such sources serve the purpose of “finding the
>historical truth”, the cause which is always given by the deniers
>as an apology for their acting. On the second sight, this remark
>shows that for the “revisionists” the discussion of a historical
>problem, in this case the Holocaust, is not lead for the sake of
>illuminating a past reality and therefore is on principle neutral,
>but that the discourse gains it reason out of itself and only for them.
>Mr. Giwer wants to sustain the meaning, which the discussion presents to
>him, by trying to manipulate it following his own set of rules. He
>wants to decide what kind of sources may be used, which topics may
>be discussed, which contributions are in context and which are out.
>This way, he tries to construct a personal possessionship of the
>discussion. By this ownership, his discussing of a historical past
>becomes the expression for an entirely subjective concept of history.
>Because a source has per se no value as a statement on the past, but
>gains its meaning only through the positive appreciation of the
>”revisionist”, every objective talk on history ends. “History” in
>the eyes of the “revisionist” therefore finds its existence only
>as an affirmative instrument of their own weltanschauung. Thus Mr.
>Giwer’s recent threats and “spams” can only be understood in the way
>that the discussion has started to threaten his “opinions”, therefore
>he was forced to intercept as a regulator. From my point of view, this
>is of course a highly appreciable result. “Der getroffene Hund bellt,”
>as a German proverb says.

> On the other hand, this concept of history makes it impossible to
>convince a holocaust-denier in any point. Every attempt to meet them
>on the level of reason must be vain and will probably be followed by
>an emotional response – as this would be the case with an attack on a
>religious belief. Indeed, Mr. Giwer’s frequent accusations of the
>”holohuggers” being “religios follower of the cult of holocaust” is
>betraying. His attacks, as the attacks of a “believer in true reason”
>against the “emotional errants” reminds of the attacks of a heretic
>on orthodox. Not that the holocaust research would be connected in any
>way with such connotations, but that Mr. Giwer uses such metaphors,
>hints at him thinking in such categories, at least subconciously.

> Lipstadt draws in “Denying the Holocaust” the conclusion, that every
>conversation with holocaust-deniers is contra-productive and therefore
>to be avoided. I do not follow Lipstadt here. I mean that one has to
>take the stand against deniers’ claims by all means and that one has to
>take into account their special concept of history. That does not at all
>mean that we have to let ourselves be drawn into their weird dialectics.
>On contrary, this means that the discussion of historical facts using
>sources must only be a part of the discourse. The other, and as I think
>more important, part must be analysing “revisionist” argumentation and
>their travesty of history. And here the true motives of the holocaust
>deniers must be brought in the open. As long as we accept their claim of
>just defending their position “for the sake of truth”, we will not be
>able to doubt the justification of their acting. The search for truth is
>the most important and the purest motive of the historian.

> To disprove the “revisionist” claim of searching for the truth, we may
>also use material which is connected only indirectly with this newsgroup.
>It is appropriate to quote an essay in which Mr. Giwer proposes to intern
>those dependent on the social services in concentration camps. This allows
>conclusions on his motives of trying to improve the image of German
>fascism. It is possible to present Mr. Giwer’s opinion that Socialism,
>Fascism and Liberalism are synonymous because it illustrates his inability
>to use historical terms in their precise meaning and therefore his
>incompetence of judging historical sources. It is fitting to demonstrate
>Mr. Giwers stubborn habit of searching only for cues in source texts and
>to connect them in his mind to the meaning he wants them to have. This
>shows sufficiently his attitude that history may be manipulated for the
>ends of appologizing his opinions.

> The utterances of the “revisionists” must themselves be taken into
>account as a source of historical studies. As long as this does not take
>the forms of a polemic, we do not need to show any consideration. Remarks
>like Mr. Giwer’s protestations he wouldn’t need to prove the theses put
>forward in his essays because these are “opinion-pieces” and therefore
>above critique in a public discussion, are in this context amusing, if
>anything. Nethertheless they should be documented because they are telling.

> To these ends I will (when I have time to do so) then and there
>dissect some of Mr. Giwer’s more interesting essays. I hope he will not
>withstand the temptation to answer and thus to expose himself even more.
>I will collect his contributions to the discussion and to condense them
>as a criticism of “revisionist” techniques of discussion shown on a
>grateful object. This is in my opinion the only way to defend speaking
>with holocaust-deniers.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47866 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:05:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>>>
>>>> Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>>>>
>>>> For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>>>>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>>>>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>>>>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>>>>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>>>>After much crying and charging of “anti-Semitism” and “neo-Nazism”
>>>>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>>>>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>>>>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>>>>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>>>>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.
>>
>>> BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
>>> were exterminated at Auschwitz. Note that Tommy does not provide
>>> historical citations for his claim – he never does when he reposts this
>>> drivel.
>>
>> It is an amazing position that historians know better than an impartial
>>court with an army of investigators determined just after the war.
>>
>> That individual historians without a fraction of the resources can find
>>differently is a monument to weaseling out of the findings of the
>>kangaroo trials at Nuremberg and nothing less.
>>
>>> >Among those dedicated to
>>>>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>>>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>>>>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>>>>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>>>>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>>>>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at.
>>>>
>>>> As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>>>>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>>>>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>>>>
>>>> ——–
>>>>
>>>> “For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>>>>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>>>>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>>>>Shouldn’t the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>>>>are much lower than previously thought?”
>>>>*(“well over” meaning 4 million)
>>
>>> BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context. In
>>> context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
>>> deniers. What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.
>>> What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
>>> explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
>>> by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
>>> to 1,500,000 in different studies.)
>>
>>> You get the point. The rest of Tommy’s lies are deleted.
>>
>> In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.

> I wouldn’t use terms that strong, but yes. Well before you arrived at
> alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
> the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.

And your objections to the findings were?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47868 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazis NOT racist NOR antisemitic!
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:33:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 8:36:42 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>—————————————————
>Extra, extra! Nazis NOT racist, as Famous holocaust
>researcher tells. Read all about it!
>—————————————————

>[Masterhistorian Matt “I’ve read’em all” Giwer claims:]

>>>[email protected] (SF924) wrote:
>[…]
>>>Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>>>it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>>>Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle. In
>>>this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>>>Socialist philosophy, is the highest embodiment of the human form, and at
>>>the other end is the Jewish race. A number of lesser races are in between.

>> You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>>further.
>> I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>>everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.

> If I interpret the strange English of the second sentence correctly, Mr.
>Giwer is flatly denying that national socialism had the concept of competing
>races and anti-semitism. A daring point of view, indeed! Please compare
>another of Mr. Giwer’s many opinions, which he wrote a couple of weeks ago
>in a response to me:

>>[Giwer answered]
>>> The superior race gimmick was an idea of Nazism. It was not part of
>>> Fascism. The closest Mussolini got to it was waxing eloquent on the
> (Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms, 17 Jun 1996)

> He seems to have changed his point of view a bit, doesn’t he? Well, it
>doesn’t really matter, since it’s only op-ed format anyway, and therfore:

>**********************************************************************
>Mr. Giwer’s contributions are purely subjective and entirely emotional
>**********************************************************************

> Needless to say that Mr. Giwer neither sees the necessity to support this
>inane claim by any evidence, nor to point out, _why_ the above description
>should be wrong. Never mind, nobody would have expected something different.

> This is not the first time Mr. Giwer lands on his belly when messing
>around with historical terms. I would not go so far, as to say that the idea of
>racial competition is the main defining point of national socialism, but it
>is without doubt one of the most important points. Apart from that, this
>aspect has been depicted very accurately by the first writer. Indeed, the
>Nazis saw “the Jew” was seen as an antithesis to the idealized “Aryan”.
>While the first was the negative principle of cultural destruction, the
>second was the positive principle of cultural construction. “The Jew” may
>not be fitted easily in the qualitative hierarchy of race. Although he
>was regarded as inferior by the Nazis, he was also attributed with quasi
>diabolical powers which made him incredibly dangerous. The Nazis did regard
>no other race per se as nearly as dangerous, but only by the infiltration by
>”the Jew”. Therefore, the symmetric picture laid out by the first author
>is entirely correct. I really would like to support this point by quotations
>from “Mein Kampf”, but due to censorship, it is nearly impossible to
>obtain a copy here in Germany. But I can say that, when I read the German
>1934 edition in Britain, I found numerous passages exactly stating the
>above view. Jäckel has argued in “Hitler’s Weltanschauung” that the
>extreme anti-semitism was the extreme anti-semitism was the only consisting
>doctrine in an entirely fuzzy and ungraspable amalgam of irrational and
>unsystematic ideas. Thus it had a predominant position in the NS “philosophy”,
>but more important was the lack of consistency itself which made the
>national socialism an ideal instrument for grasping power. Yet in the
>insanity of racism lay also the source of the destruction of the nazis
>because it drove Hitler into the catastrophe of war against the Soviet
>Union.

> The question remains, why Mr. Giwer tries to falsify the identity of
>fascist ideology. Could it be that he tries to make this ideology
>representable because he sympathizes with many of of its aspects, as e.g.
>the leading role of a minority elite?

>Nele

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47874 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:42:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg] [Sun 30 Jun 96 >19:01][Tue 02 Jul 96 18:08][0]*>

> >> No more needs to be said on this nonsensical claim of
> >> disbelief.

> mnc> Would not the innocent say the same thing? Particularly
> mnc> when there was no physical or forensic evidence of gassing
> mnc> introduced.

>(*SIGH*) Matt – you really need to study up on a few modern cases as
>samples of sufficiency of evidence. I won’t ask you to go too far
>into the past, so your library will have *SOMETHING* on the subject.

You mean the rules have changed on the need to have a body and a murder
weapon and to establish that the cause of death was the murder weapon?
Was I asleep when that change went through?

As to sufficiency, it is referred to as beyond a reasonable doubt down
this way.

One indirect method of establishing the gassing would have been simply
collecting the entrance records, subtracting the cause of death and
survivor numbers and then introducing gassing to explain the difference.
Save of course that the gassing requires all the gassed to be
undocumented upon entering.

> >> If the defendants were contesting the gassings in 1946, why are
> >> you claiming that the gassing story came out in the 50’s and
> >> 60’s?

> mnc> I am not making that claim. I have said it was codified in
> mnc> those years with the elimination of steaming, electrocution and
> mnc> vacuum chambers and with the elimination of gas chambers in

>Matt, your memory is like a sieve. No, a very coarse colander.

>BTW – yes there were vacuum chambers used. The problem is not that
>they were used to kill innocent victims – it was that they weren’t
>used as mass execution instruments, like the gas chambers. They were
>used in experiments.

Although I have yet to come up with the original description of using
vacuum chambers for mass murder I have come up with the originals
describing steaming and electrocution for mass murder. I even have a
description of the boiler room and the control system for the steaming.

If you would like more, I have a description of bodies being burned
without fuel.

>Please, Matt, surely you remember the basic rules about eye-witness
>testimony!

Yes, when they testify to something physically impossible they were not
a witness.

> mnc> vacuum chambers and with the elimination of gas chambers in
> mnc> Germany. All of those and more had to be done AFTER all those

>Here we go again. There *was* a gas chamber in Dachau! It was not a
>major extermination tool, it didn’t have the size or capacity of the
>Birkenau models – but it existed!

>Must we repeat this yet again?

>Try to remember that your claims were already refuted, debunked and
>disposed of years ago – in Debate, Opinion, everywhere.

>Good grief, Matt – it just isn’t worth all of this time to argue
>facts with you if you simply restart an argument that you’ve lost
>repeatedly!

All I have received in response is mindless reiteration and declaration
of victory as you are doing.

>Surely you can come up with an argument that actually requires
>effort to answer! You haven’t lost it all, have you?

>Where and with whom have you been arguing?!? AOL? Tzippy the Lippy?
>DKimmel? Dahlman? With arguments like your latest here, I’d put my
>kid up against you and it still wouldn’t be fair to you!

>Shape up! Show some rational behavior! Argue to the point! Stop
>trying for the spurious thrill of the troll!

Did you miss the posts regarding the large scale delousing chambers for
mattresses and the like as well as the standard Degesh models? I even
posted a picture and a diagram of the standard model. At least those
did such fundamental things as

> >> out in the mid-forties?

> mnc> The value of the AG messages was to point out what people
> mnc> are saying now was also known then, that there were no gas
> mnc> chambers in Germany despite the IMT charges that there were, and
> mnc> that all of the claims of them came from Russia which not not

>Except that Al was a blatant liar!

Other than an opinion from one side of family feud, there still were no
gas chambers in Germany despite the story of the US Army. He says, he
always said that. Thus a point of congruency.

> mnc> that all of the claims of them came from Russia which not not
> mnc> permit anyone else to investigate. It supports what is known
> mnc> now, that the entire gassing story came from Russia.

>(*SIGH AGAIN*) Matt, m’boy! That is so inane that it won’t even get
>a rise in alt.conspiracy!

It is not a conspiracy in the least. It is a statement of fact. Even
the French presented Russian generated information including
documentation that people were infected with cancer, something we can
not do even today.

> >> Please try to be consistent.

> mnc> You need to follow the conference more closely than you can
> mnc> with the work load you have now.

>Reading takes little effort. I scan at better than 9000 wpm and have
>full comprehension at 4500+. Answering takes more effort.

Type faster?

>When the value content is high, I slow down. When it’s low, I speed
>up.

>Sorry, Matt, but lately I’ve gone thru your stuff at full speed.
>Just repetition. No sharpness of mind there at all!

>Whups! My timer went off! End of letter.

Saw something with huge snaggly teeth?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47891 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2: Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:32:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 7:35:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (SF924) wrote:

>Mr Giwer:

>It is quite clear that you are incapable of engaing in a cogent
>discussion. We’re discussing the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews and you start
>to talk about “ancient Israelites”. It boggles the mind to see your
>logic.

We were talking about genocide were we not? There are not that many
examples of it.

>You obviously have a serious problem with Jews.

Not that I am aware of. I read the bible once. It is all in there.

I don’t know
>whether this arose from your upbringing or like Hitler, you kept losing
>out to Jews in school or in the workplace and built up a resentment and
>hatred. I don’t really care.

Obviously one of those very strange people who enjoys casting aspersions
upon people who simply talk about what is written. Or are you denying
that it what is written?

>Over the last several weeks, I have attempted to gain an understanding of
>the Revisionist viewpoint. If you must know, my curiosity in this subject
>was motivated by an editorial which George F. Will had written discussing
>a lunch he had with Mr. Mark Weber of the IHR. I wanted to learn for
>myself whther there was any basis in your position, or as Will concluded,
>you were just a bunch of zanies on the lunatic fringe, a sort of “flat
>earth society”.

I have not found much use for Will myself. He is much too politically
correct.

>It seems pretty clear to me that your arguments are delusional.

Which ones are you talking about?

However,
>like you, I am a strong believer in the First Amendment.

It is wise of you to believe in what you can do nothing about.

I believe that
>the best way to combat your “arguments” is to put them up to scrutiny and
>to refute them. I am left with one question, and one which Will posed
>which I paraphrase: What kind of person would spend his or her life
>engaging in this type of activity?

The kind of person who also debunks UFO believers and creationists. It
is an honored avocation with a long tradition.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 05:54:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 12:57:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Nele) said:

>>
>>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts
>>with quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie
>>to forbid him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the
>>point that I do not open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure
>>that it is again one of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing
>>so, I was quite interested in his contributions. But now… I wonder
>>whether other people have come too to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make
>>everybody ignore him?

>No, Mr. Giwer tries to make people *respond* to him. Every time someone
>does, he wins.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 05:53:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 12:56:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard James Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:

>>I will extend the concept now to this board. It is likely that there is a
>>full routine, but I don’t know what it is: having been here for only two
>>months. I don’t know the structure well enough. If there is a
>>predictability to what goes here, and that this is just a shadow game,
>>which I sometimes suspect, then I will log on somewhere else.

>Very good. Mr. Ehrlich is learning. Matt Giwer has not introduced
>anything into this discussion that was not brought up by Bob Hunt a year
>ago. Before Bob Hunt there were others. Bob Hunt is a lot smarter than
>Matt Giwer and if there had been a credible case he would have done a
>lot better with it. The supposed objections to the use of Zyklon-B were
>based on ignorance then and they’re based on ignorance now. No quantity
>of insults from Matt Giwer can change that.

You obviously have not read what I have written. I have never said that
Zyklon B could not have been used. But you know that.

So why do you create that straw man?

>>If he is not in a position to prove something, that’s one thing. If he is
>>simply validating his skepticism, that’s another.

>Yes, but his skepticism is based on distorting science that he doesn’t

You have a record of distorting science when it comes to this subject so
what is your point in making this statement?

>>Relax. I make no claim to scientific expertise. I don’t even think
>>Matt’s comments need to be permanently confuted. It is enough that he has
>>articulated reasons for his skepticism.

>His understanding of the issues involved has proved to be nonexistent.
>The man doesn’t even understand what an equilibrium vapor pressure is.

On the contrary, I do. What I do not do is imply that technical details
in the terms of correct statement of principles negates the conclusion
as you have done.

>>I don’t think this is an adversarial process, I mean in the sense of
>>hating and bearing grudges. At least I don’t want it to be. I am
>>interested in this subject, I am convinced that revision and clarity are
>>needed, and I am following it right now. That’s all.

>Then you are naive about the motivations of many of your compatriots.

>Mr. Ehrlich,

>Do you think that Greg Raven cares about the truth?
>Do you think that the Hubers care about the truth?
>Do you think Matt Giwer or Tom Moran care about the truth?
>Do you care about it?
>Why are you here?

>Regards,

>Rich Green

I know that Richard Green will unquestionably violate all ethical
standards to distort science to his desired conclusions.

I know he has a guaranteed career as an “expert witness” with the
approach he has towards science.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:43 PDT 1996
Article: 47906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:47:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:51:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: Marty Kelley wrote:

>: >May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer? How about this:
>:
>: >1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>: >identified, documented sources to support your claims.
>:
>: That depends upon whether or not the “documentation game” is going to be
>: played. For example, “Hilberg wrote” does not count nor does “a
>: pharmacist concluded.”
>:
>: >2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging
>: >in insults against others.
>:
>: I will not ignore it. I would have thought that is clear by now.
>:
>: >Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the
>: >level of discourse in this group.
>:
>: All by my self?
>:
>: >I’ll gladly take this “pledge” myself.
>:
>: Or just the two of us?

>Count me in, too.

The method is very simple. Do not engage in it and there is nothing for
me to respond to. I would think that is very clear.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47917 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:35:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:39:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>> Good only Overtaken By Events shows up only to post the slurs while his
>>dumbass flunkies he has permitted to call themselves “co-webmasters”
>>pretend to speak for Nizkor when in fact they are only self-aggrandizing
>>flunkies.

> Giwer calling *other people* “self-aggrandizing flunkies????

Just who do you think I work for?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47918 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:46:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:50:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>> A possible position. However as you have seen the game played here
>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.
>> That is unacceptable.

> The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>side demolishes your arguments.

The point is that similar methods are used by both sides and there is in
fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.

What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
their sources are unimpeachable.

>> Mothers are not fathers.

> No shit, Sherlock????!!!!!!!!!!

>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>posting to me and about me?

> Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>”simpering bitch”. Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?

HRO’s posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
insults. What makes you think she should be immune from response?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:20:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4r7udf$1u[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 2:23:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>[text deleted for brevity]
>
>>> Someone just might be suspicious with your knowledge of what was never
>>>posted but then that would be antisemitic or some such, would it not?

>> Evidence that “he” is looney. So Ehrlich, what do you think?

>I wonder if this will be another question that causes the “honest”
>honourable gentleman to break into yet another round of what seems to
>be one of his favourite songs: “Hello darkness, my old friend ……/
>… the sound of silence”

>>>> I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.
>>>
>>> I know your intimate knowledge of the exact events makes you complicite
>>>in it.

>> Giwer went this route with McFee once. All it did was make Giwer look
>> stupid. One has to wonder why he is going this route again…

>I rather think the answer is quite simple, Mr. Mittleman. Giwer seems
>to excel at perpetual recycling – of himself, his modes and his lies.
>The very best efforts of cobblers and ghost-writers cannot succeed in
>helping him overcome this handicap. Perhaps they’ll eventually
>realize that, as we have known for quite some time: You can dress a
>troll up, but you just can’t take him anywhere.

>> /re-enter killfile mode {sheesh}

>Yes, I _do_ understand:>)

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47926 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a new approach
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:23:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 2:26:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

Do you folks really want to continue this?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:02:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 5:05:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Nele) said:

>>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>Imagine. Free access to the source documents, with no bowdlerism and no
>>>>censorship.
>>>
>>> Who ever gave you the idea there was no censorship?
>>> There is you know.

>>Schwächlich… Früher hat er sich mehr Mühe gegeben mit seinen Antworten…

>Ich glaube, dass der arme kleine Maettchen sehr muede ist. 🙂

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!BellSouth!newsrelay.iastate.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:23:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jul 01 2:26:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not an expert on Kahane, but I am under the impression that most
>>> of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him and that in the
>>> end his political party was declared illegal in Israel? Am I correct
>>> in my recollections? Isn’t this – or actions like this – very
>>> different than Giwer’s suggestion that Kahane was defended or supported
>>> by the Jewish community?
>>>
>>> And, Tommy, isn’t the fact that there was a split over Kahane’s views
>>> evidence that the Jewish community is not monolithic?

>> I have seen very little condemnation of the JDL. In fact I can
>>only remember one from about 10 years ago.
>> And Mr.Mittleman, one example, if it was true, would not be
>>evidence to support any “Jews are divided” (common vernacular) theme.
>> For every example you could present, there would be hundreds to
>>show otherwise.
>> The Jew says one thing, but does the other, more so than anyone I
>>have seen. They do more talking and advertising their divisions and
>>benevolence than the reality shows.

>And to think that L’il Tommy has the chutzpah to turn around and ask
>for “proof” that he is a hate-filled and fact-bereft anti-Semitic
>twit.

>Amazing! Simply amazing!

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47929 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:12:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:15:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:

>> >As I stated before, I have SEEN letters like that. I have held them in my
>> >hand, seen the stamps and the dates on them.

>> Ah, good to know that you have seen letters recieved by JEWISH family
>> members who were not taken. Can you explain this?

>If you had paid the slightest bit of attention the LAST time I posted this
>information (which was less than a week ago), you would know that the
>letters were received by family members IN AMERICA who had already
>emigrated.

There are also reports of people in Germany receiving them.

>Again: Why is that so difficult to understand?

Where is the part about retaining the addresses and the handwriting
samples and detailed family information so that the “forgers” would not
refer to non-existant relatives or events?

>> >Why is that so difficult to believe? The SS (and the Nazis in general) had
>> >a vested interest in keeping the general populace calm. These letters were
>> >an attempt to do so.
>>
>> Why would you not realize the problems that I have pointed out?
>Why do
>> you insist upon believing a story that is patently false?

>Because it’s not patently false. I have evidence that it is true: the
>letters. You have NO evidence that it is false, except of course,
>”Because! I! Say! So!”

>Why are YOU so determined to insist it is false, even when faced with the truth?

How were the letters forged?

>> If it was the result of a mass round up of Jews, who were the family
>> members receiving the letters? If they were immediately gassed who had
>> all the information to continue these forgeries for months to years?

>Oh, Mr. Giwer. You know NOTHING of Europe, do you? Do you think Germany
>was a backward country? You must, since you don’t believe in the most
>minimal record-keeping.

>Let me try and explain it in modern terms: When I moved to the
>Netherlands, I had to register at the local town hall. I had to give my
>name, local address, RELIGION, next of kin, addresses of relatives, etc.
>EVERYONE who lives in a given town MUST register with the local
>authorities. IT IS THE LAW. And it is the SAME LAW that was in effect
>during the war. In Holland. In Germany. In MOST European countries, I
>believe.

And of course handwriting samples, the personal names you called family
members, the names of friends, significant family events, personal
preferences, all the host of things that would make up a personal
letter.

And then of course we need to find these records missing from where they
were filled out and found where the “forgers” would have access to
them.

We would also find a small army of people who would tell about forging
letters as what they did during the war.

In place of everything that is plainly needed to accomplish all of this
letter writing we find only reiteration that it really and truly did
happen.

>Second, letters sent to family within the sphere of Nazi control did NOT
>need to be sent “for months to years.” They only needed to be sent until
>the other family members were rounded up themselves. Use a little common
>sense, Mr. Giwer, if you are at all capable of doing so.

>Ah, I ask too much.

But there are stories of such letters being sent for months to years.
There is a complimentary story

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:29:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 7:33:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] writes
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: When I said it
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>wrong.
>>”No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”
>>–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.
>> I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

>I fail to see why.

>I have asked before and I’ll ask again (please note, these are not
>rhetorical questions and I would welcome the views of any readers) :-

>A.
>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute
>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?

They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.

>B.
>Would it matter if the Nuremberg defendants were tried on the basis of
>ex post facto laws ? If so, why ?

It would have the same effect if next year it were made a capitol
offense to post under the name Angus McClellan and you were executed for
doing so in 1996.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:30:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 7:34:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47936 alt.censorship:87340 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:105 alt.usenet.kooks:26309

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>> >What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about.

>Case in point is Giwer’s catch-me-if-you-can reply:

>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>> mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>> Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>> and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.
>>
>> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>> this? All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>> time you folks are unable to find those mentions.

>Mr. Giwer, please post the names and email address of, say, three of
>these “at least a dozen people.” I will contact them and have them
>explain to me where they think they saw these mentions of Hoess’ trials.
>I think that no one knows the layout of Nizkor better than Ken McVay and
>myself; if I cannot clear this up, I will ask Mr. McVay and we will
>figure out what is going on.

>My prediction of what is going on: Giwer is flat-out lying, as he has
>done many times in the past

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>and as he will continue to do in the future. Giwer is claiming that
>Nizkor “censors” by editing its own files (!) — he hopes that he can
>make this charge stick, and thus obscure the fact that he is a net
>abuser himself. Giwer will fail to provide even a single name of someone
>who can confirm what he’s saying. Giwer will fail to provide the URLs
>himself. Giwer will hope this whole matter is forgotten, but meanwhile,
>he will continue to claim that Nizkor and “holohuggers” are censors.

>Posted; not emailed, because this net abuser Cc’d my root last time I
>dared to send him email.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Hate mail will be posted.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Studies XVI: Operation Reinhard (4/11)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:05:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 8:08:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs16.04
>Last-modified: 1993/03/27
>XRef: yad_vashem index

> YAD VASHEM STUDIES
> XVI
> Edited by Aharon Weiss

> YAD VASHEM
> MARTYR’S AND HEROES’ REMEMBRANCE AUTHORITY
> JERUSALEM 1984

> “Operation Reinhard”:
> Extermination Camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka

> Yitzhak Arad

> The Construction of the Sobibor Extermination Camp

And here we have the same old rather incomprensible story told in
greater detail. This is a specialized camp and a major cash outlay no
matter how you look at it.

In addition to the three buildings described below there were two other
building complexes including complete living and messing quarters for
the staff and their servants.

This place was designed from start to finish solely for the efficient
gassing of people. Lessons were learned from Belzec camp layout and
gassings that were incorporated into this one. There is even what
appears to be a small train-like operation to move the bodies. This was
the farthest thing you can imagine from a makeshift operation.

In the midst of this new construction project …

> The first gas chambers in Sobibor were housed in a strong brick
> building with concrete foundations, in the northeastern part of the
> camp. Inside were three gas chambers; each measured 4 x 4 m. and
> could hold 150-200 people at a time. Each chamber had a separate
> entrance door leading off from a platform on the long side of the
> terrain. Opposite the entrance was another door through which the
> corpses were removed. As in Belzec, the exhaust fumes were conducted
> through pipes from a nearby shed into the gas chambers.

> Upon completion of the construction work, extermination tests were
> conducted in mid-April 1942. Wirth came to Sobibor in order to
> follow the experiments. He was accompanied by a chemist whose
> pseudonym was Dr. Blaurock (or Blaubacke). SS-Unterscharfu”hrer
> Erich Fuchs, who served in Belzec, described the preparations for the
> first gassing trials: On Wirth’s instructions I travel led by truck
> to Lvov and collected a gassing engine there, which I transported to
> Sobibor. In Sobibor… [we] unloaded the engine. It was a heavy
> Russian gasoline engine [probably a tank or train engine] with at
> least 200 h.p. [V-enginel 8 cylinders, water cooled]. We stood the
> engine on a concrete base and connected the exhaust to the pipe
> conduit. Then I tried out the engine. To begin with, it did not
> function. I managed to repair the ignition and the ventils so that
> the motor finally started.

… we have a broken down Russian engine at the heart of the entire
operation.

What is wrong with this picture?

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 05:02:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 10:05:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Alec Grynspan wrote:

>>Michael P. Stein wrote:

>>> Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
>>> like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
>>> to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse. Or perhaps he will point

>>Inconsequential. You challenge Matt on something that he will ignore.

>Precisely Mr. Stein’s point, I would think. The longer troll
>ignores the issue, the more obvious it will become – with
>regard to the public record – that the troll is either
>unwilling or unable to address issues of substance –
>particularly issues of substance that he, himself has
>previously raised and then avoided, when things got too sticky
>for him.

>This will, in the long run, prove damaging to whatever shred
>of credibility remains to the fellow. It matters not one whit
>whether or not he answers – it matters only that he was asked.
>It is the public record which counts, and only the public record.
>It is, after all, the public who will determine the merit, or
>lack of same, of any participant here.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | Shofar FTP Archives
>———————–| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 05:03:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 10:06:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>[email protected] (ANGUS MCLELLAN) writes:
>>In article <[email protected]>
>>[email protected] writes
>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>
>>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>wrong.
>>>”No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”
>>>–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.
>>> I would say it is good company to be wrong with.
>>
>>I fail to see why.

>I’d add to your list of questions:

>C. What is on pages 189 and 191?

>D. Did either Douglas or Kennedy ever deny that the Holocaust happened?

>E. Is the GiwerTroll ever going to stop spamming?

>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47954 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 01:26:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 8:29:18 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>> What a juvenile. When you learn something get back to me.

>> What people have to realize is that we are faced with posts like this.
>>They seem to believe that there was no history before they were born and
>>that landfills were always the way things were done.

>> No matter how stupid that is, incineration was the preferred method up
>>until the EPA got the power to ban it. There were no landfills prior to
>>then. Incineration is cheaper. (speaking of bodies …)

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. His usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel he cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters of
>obscenity or indecency, or both. The preceeding quote is an example of this
>and makes it obvious that rational discourse with him is not only not
>possible, it is feared by him.

>For more detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and lips. After
those stairways were wased, the same people were forced to collect
garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage had to be
transferred to one place in the courtyard. ”

IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 07:37:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:15:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 9:18:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>Let’s see. Giwer-bot is reduced to reproducing denier spam fed to him
>>by….well *we* know, don’t we Matty-bot? He is reduced to dodging articles
>>and simply posting his sig-bot. He is obeying orders. He is copying. He
>>is being led around by the nose. Why, the Giwer-bot is almost toast.

>The most interesting questions regarding the Giwer-bot, of course, are
>these: “Who is behind the effort, and do they represent specific
>organizations?”

>In due course, I suspect we will come to discover the answer
>to both of those questions.

>In the meantime, Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer-matt/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | Shofar FTP Archives
>———————–| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 10:05:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:13:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 10:17:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] (borowsky) wrote:
>> >
>> >Though you don’t permit others to put you with Bradley Smith, Ernst Zundel
>> >&tc. Not a substantial double standard, but a double standard nonetheless.
>>
>> I have never met them. I do not particularly remember having read
>> anything that any of them may have written. I have certainly not
>> formulated any of my ideas based upon anything they have written.
>>
>> So why should I be connected with them?

>I have never met Marduk. Jamie McCarthy has never met Marduk. Danny
>Mittleman has never met Marduk. Keith Morrison has never met Marduk.

How do you know?

>(Add names as appropriate; these are just a few I know of…)
>Nor have we encouraged or applauded Marduk. Yet, because Marduk sent
>your son a rude e-mail message, and because one or two people said, “big
>deal!”, you continue to claim that “holohuggers” as a class, and Mssrs
>Mittleman and McCarthy in particular, have harassed (and encouraged
>harrassment of) your family. Why should we be connected with Marduk?

Why not?

>> >otherwise, what point would there be in
>> >degrading people with `hologhugger’?
>>
>> I am open to the use of another name. What would you suggest?

>While I have some qualms about the connotations of Ehrlich’s
>”conventionalist” coinage, it would be less derisive and disrespectful.
>”Anti-revisionist” would be another possibility; although both terms
>assume a position of intellectual integrity for Holocaust denial (a
>position which is easily demonstrated to be fallacious), both terms would
>be acceptible to me. “Anti-revisionist” also seems a fair descriptor of
>people here who accept the established history of the Holocaust, since
>they are for the most part engaging in the discussion with the express
>goal of showing Holocaust denial to be a distortion of historical reality.

>So take your pick: “anti-revisionist” or “conventionalist” would both be
>acceptable replacements for “holohugger.”

Those do not have a ring to them.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 10:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:32:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:35:37 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>
>> In keeping with your analogy of sublimating grief, even at that level,
>> given a 75 year average life span, at least 2/3s of the people
>> sublimating in public were not even born until after 1945. It is not
>> clear why there is any grief to sublimate for them.
>>

>Mr. Giwer:
>
>I was born after 1945. 12 years after, to be precise. (Birth certificate
>can be produced if you need evidence.)
>
>My mother (deceased last year) was born in Poland. She, her father,
>mother, and brother emigrated to Canada in the 1920s. (In case you’re
>wondering how they survived.) One aunt and one uncle followed a bit later.
>Everyone else was “disappeared.”
>
>The fact that I was born after the end of the war does not mean I do not
>mourn those relatives and landsmen I never met.
>
>Your callousness is only matched by your ignorance.

Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.

You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
so.

If in fact you are not twisting the meaning of mourning, your behavior
is very abnormal. You are the kind of person I have talked about.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 10:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!tomato.dussco.com!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:08:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 2:12:16 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:
>>

>> >He who asserts must prove.
>>
>> That never appears to apply to your favorite gas chambers. Why start
>> now?

>Mr. Giwer is once again being provocative without reason or meaning. I
>have *never* discussed gas chambers with Mr. Giwer, yet he drags this into
>a discussion regarding the JDL because he cannot intelligently debate this
>subject.
>
>”He who asserts must prove” is a valid, reasonable request. Mr. Giwer is
>obviously incapable of reasonable debate, since he is without reason.
>
>Oh, before I forget:
>
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>
>Sara

>–
>”A perfect writer would make words sing, dance, kiss, do the male and female act, bear children, weep, bleed, rage, steal, stab, fire cannon, steer ships, sack cities, charge with cavalry or infantry, or do any thing, that man or woman or the natural powers can do.”
> Walt Whitman
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 10:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 47983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question: How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:19:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >Giwer doesn’t have to know anything about National Socialism in order to
>: >pronounce upon it, just as he doesn’t have to know anything about history,
>: >law, chemistry or magnetic recording technology in order to give the
>: >definitive accounts of them. He is Giwer. Resistance is futile.
>:
>: And you, on the other hand, are an expert in all such matters so that
>: you can judge. Or am I mistaken in the position you are taking?

>Yes, you are mistaken. I know a great deal about history, so I often
>comment upon it. I also have access to a very good reference library,
>so I’m often able to look up specific facts and use them to refute
>foolish assertions–such as the one that magnetic tape wasn’t invented
>until the 50s. I know very little about chemistry and only a middling
>amount about the intricacies of the law, so I rarely have anything to
>say about them; I do, however, know a little something about the structure
>of argument, about logic, and about the tactics used by the foolish to
>make themselves appear wise to other fools–and that’s what I generally
>catch you out on, Matt.

You should point them out some time so everyone will know that you are
actually finding what you claim you are finding. I hope you will not
mind my considering it an empty claim until then.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 10:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 47984 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alec Grynspan
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:23:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:26:30 PM CDT 1996
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Alec Grynspan wrote:

>ANGUS MCLELLAN wrote:
>>
>> How do we know that ? Grynspan (always assuming he/she/it is a real
>> person and not a construct) could be sending you half a dozen emails a
>> day for all I know (or care).

>None – to him. Few to others. I’ve got other things on my mind. Why must
>Matt have any priority?

To keep the record straight as these folks will jump on anything, there
was one email to your first post when I drew a blank on neuromancer. If
I remember correctly, your response was something like five words
regarding my memory.

>> Giwer’s “secret techniques” ? That’ll be lying, ignoring questions,
>> misquoting postings, cut-and-paste extraordinaire and so on. Golly gosh.

>No secret techniques. He has his own agenda, but that’s obvious – if you
>know what really drives him.

Again please demonstrate rather than talking about it. It does get
annoying.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 15:06:20 PDT 1996
Article: 48022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:12:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 9:15:49 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>Time out! *Holohugger* isn’t degrading. It’s teasing. Although I would
>>tend to agree that — reading Bruce’s comments — that Matt could be more
>>_sensitive_. But you know what? On this board, the more sensitive you
>>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off. It is called, I believe,
>>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.

>No, it is rather insultingly stupid. Not one of of us that I know of
>takes great joy in having to deal with those who would deny the
>Holocaust. In order to do this one has to deal with the poisons of
>reading about those events and those horrors. One must spend enormous
>amounts of time refuting the most trivial lie. Lies are cheap. I also
>find it fascinating that the Jewish aspect of it gets the most comment
>while the other 6 million do not get so much. The reason for this is
>that the Jews seem to be the agenda of the deniers. I find the whole
>racial aspect of the Nazis reprehensible. I find the Spenserian
>philosophy that was used flawed to the extreme. It would be nice NOT
>to have to do this. Think if none of us did.

You are certainly a newcomer to this. I went through the exercise of
pointing out the “jews only” holocaust attitude promoted by Jews. I
backed this up with extensive crossposts from the primary holocaust web
sites. Among them were the SWC, the USHMM and of course our favorite,
Nizkor. You clearly have it backwards.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 16:42:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:07:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:11:18 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

> wrote:
>>>Are you now claiming that you believe Anne Frank’s diary to be a hoax?
>>>In the past, I believe you had stated that you didn’t know. Please
>>>clarify your position on the authenticity of the _Diary_; I would also
>>>like to know why you think it’s a hoax (if you do).
>>
>> I said exactly what I said. That there was a plagarism settlement.
>> What would be of interest is finding the book the plagarism was claimed
>> to be from and which parts were involved.

>I expect that the reason for the question [which you didn’t adress, to my
>*shock and surprise*] was that we’d all be very interested to know about
>this settlement. Are those the chemicals talking,

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. ”

IMT VII – p. 377.

or can you actually
>come up with something resembling verifiable information?

>I’ll be very surprised to discover that you confabulated this one, too….

>–
>The arts are the field on which we place our own dreams, thoughts, and desires
>alongside those of others, so that solitudes can meet, to their joy sometimes,
>or to their surprise, and sometimes to their disgust.(R. Hughes) Gregory Taylor
>WORT-FM 89.9 Madison, Wisconsin http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 16:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:08:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:11:41 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) said:

>[much deleted–the attributions were screwed up to the point that I was
>saying things that Mr. Ehrlich said]

>> This doesn’t have to do with his son; it was Marduk harassment
>> pertaining to his wives. Looks like both Jeremy and I called it
>> “juvenile and tasteless.” Looks like I did little to encourage the
>> behavior here. Looks like Giwer – again – owes me an apology. I
>> suspect, however, instead of an apology I will get killfile insults
>>and
>> a repost from Profiles in Courage. That Giwer, what a guy.

>I have said this ten times now and I will say it again. And I will note
>that Giwer *still* has not denied it, because he knows I am right and he
>knows how I know. The alleged Giwer family persecution did not happen–it
>was a Giwer invention, and a pretty feeble one at that.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. ”

IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 16:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 02:49:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 9:53:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Wanna lick my steps, fatbroad?
>> >
>>
>>
>> A classic example of Mr. Giwer’s debating technique. And a delightful
>> example of his famous 163 IQ.

>Indeed. The G*wer-Troll seems to think that gutters[nipes] have steps!
>Such ignorance is understandable as the G*wer-Trol _also_ thought the
>”ramp” at Birkenau had steps as well….

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 18:48:48 PDT 1996
Article: 48046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:48:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:51:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>Marty Kelley writes:
>>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>>identified, documented sources to support your claims.

> Ooooo!!! That is asking a lot of Giwer!

>>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging
>>in insults against others.

> I’m afraid I have to plead guilty to insulting deniers myself.

Which keeps it all going does not it?

> Derek
>–
>Derek Bell [email protected] WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
> Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
> _The Rejected Statement_

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 18:48:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:50:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02 6:53:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes about Matt Giwer:
>>The figures speak for themselves.

> Judging by his replies to this thread, the figures will increase.
>Now I can think of three reasons why he does this:

> 1. He wants to render the newsgroup useless. (My bet.)

> 2. He doesn’t know how to use his posting software. (Unlikely, as he
>has shown ability to use it before.

> 3. It it the only thing he can do that brings him any form of pleasure
>after severely spraining his wrists whilst playing the skin flute.

> He has too much time on his hands, but that was obvious.

> Derek
>–
>Derek Bell [email protected] WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
> Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
> _The Rejected Statement_

See if you can find the personal insult in what you posted.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 18:48:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 17:57:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57627 alt.revisionism:48053

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>Marty Kelley said:

>>The only proof of “harassment” I recall seeing posted by you here was one
>>rude e-mail message from “Marduk” to your son. You never posted any other
>> evidence that your son had received rude e-mail from any other regular
>>posters in this group. Please provide concrete evidence that any other
>>participants have ever harrassed your family in any way, or withdraw your
>> unsubstantiated claim.

>I would add to this that Giwer never posted one iota of proof that the
>alleged e-mail from Marduk was *really* from Marduk. I would also add that
>that happened at about the time he was arguing with Mike Stein that he could
>forge an e-mail and no one would be the wiser. I would further add that,
>not long after this, he posted an alleged post from Marduk that was so
>obviously a forgery, that even *I* could smell it out.

>The only harassment of Giwer’s family was carried out by Giwer himself.

>>As several other posters have noted, a number of anti-revisionist
>>participants condemned Marduk’s actions at the time you re-posted the
>>rude e-mail to your son.

>Yes, several of them fell for the troll.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”

IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 18:48:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 22:07:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 3:11:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>> holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>>>
>>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?

>The Giwer-bot is scared now, big time, exactly as I predicted and willed.
>He is almost gone.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.”

IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>>>May I suggest another approach altogether, Mr. Giwer? How about this:

>>>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>>>identified, documented sources to support your claims.

>> That depends upon whether or not the “documentation game” is going to be
>>played. For example, “Hilberg wrote” does not count nor does “a
>>pharmacist concluded.”

>How about playing the “post what the anonymous feeders give you” game that
>the Giwer-bot is now playing? He is reduced to this little game that would
>be exciting to a six-year old, but not to anyone remotely approaching
>adulthood. What a pathetic little pawn he has become.

>Are they paying the Giwer-bot?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.”

IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>>>2) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and refrain from engaging
>>>in insults against others.

>> I will not ignore it. I would have thought that is clear by now.

>Very clear, since the Giwer-bot’s only purpose here is to troll and start
>fights and insulting people is a sure-fired way to do it.

>>>Your taking those actions would do a great deal to elevate the
>>>level of discourse in this group.

>> All by my self?

>It would be a start, since the Giwer-bot lowered the level of discourse all
>by himself.

>And now the mighty Giwer, magnificent in his “victory”, is reduced to
>threatening to spam the group anytime anyone dares disagree with any of his
>”revisionist” cobblers and cutters, doers and doubters. What a pathetic
>creature, completely and utterly decimated, left with nothing but games
>played by school children.

>The bot lost, like they always do, and soon he will go the way of the dodo
>bird, the Gannon-goof and Craven Raven. Bye-bye Mattie-bot.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let
into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were
started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened,
and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special
procedure… they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.”

IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.27 #331

>

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 19:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revising the data, save the total
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:02:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:06:14 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. ”

IMT VII – p. 377.

>: To hell with a 16 years after the fact purging of IMT nonsense. The
>: number was 6M at the time and 6M it remains from 1945 regardless of the
>: juggling.

>: I can not change that and neither can you.

>Except, of course, that Hilberg (whom I cited, and whose book I suggested
>you read) does not cite a number of 6 million. In any case, you have
>with your usual expertise, changed the issue once your original claim
>was shown to be in error. You claimed that the number of deaths for
>each extermination camp was “revised downward.” I have pointed out
>that no historian ever took the higher numbers seriously — and you
>yourself gave the reason why.

>In any case, were you to read Hilberg’s book (something that you haven’t
>and probably can’t do), you would find out that he began his research
>in 1947.

>Furthermore, you still haven’t given your answer to the question of where
>the original 6 million figure came from, and how it was determined.

>BTW, you can probably guess into which of the four categories of people
>mentioned in my .sig file you fit.

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>”It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either
>charming or tedious.”

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 19:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48071 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:04:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:08:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:
>>

>> >”He who asserts must prove” is a valid, reasonable request. Mr. Giwer is
>> >obviously incapable of reasonable debate, since he is without reason.
>> >

>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Those Polish spies again
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT
>>
>> Anyone want to explain this one?
>>
>> ” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>> people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>> then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>> way; there they were killed. ”
>>
>> IMT VII – p.576-577.
>
>In other words, Mr. Giwer refuses to accept that he must prove his own
>assertions.
>

Editting out the insult

Oh, before I forget:

Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only

does not change the nature of the response.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war
stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at
him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement did not prove
satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a
new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against
the wall; an iron plate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The
prisoner was under the impression that he was being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped
dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the
room. ”

IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 19:42:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48074 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:51:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 12:55:35 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Time out! *Holohugger* isn’t degrading. It’s teasing. Although I would
>>>>tend to agree that — reading Bruce’s comments — that Matt could be more
>>>>_sensitive_. But you know what? On this board, the more sensitive you
>>>>are, the easier it is to get your head cut off. It is called, I believe,
>>>>the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.
>>
>>>No, it is rather insultingly stupid. Not one of of us that I know of
>>>takes great joy in having to deal with those who would deny the
>>>Holocaust. In order to do this one has to deal with the poisons of
>>>reading about those events and those horrors. One must spend enormous
>>>amounts of time refuting the most trivial lie. Lies are cheap. I also
>>>find it fascinating that the Jewish aspect of it gets the most comment
>>>while the other 6 million do not get so much. The reason for this is
>>>that the Jews seem to be the agenda of the deniers. I find the whole
>>>racial aspect of the Nazis reprehensible. I find the Spenserian
>>>philosophy that was used flawed to the extreme. It would be nice NOT
>>>to have to do this. Think if none of us did.
>>
>> You are certainly a newcomer to this. I went through the exercise of
>>pointing out the “jews only” holocaust attitude promoted by Jews. I
>>backed this up with extensive crossposts from the primary holocaust web
>>sites. Among them were the SWC, the USHMM and of course our favorite,
>>Nizkor. You clearly have it backwards.

> Actually, when Giwer first made these assertions I posted excepts from
> both the USHMM home page and the Nizkor home page which clearly showed
> them both to primarily note there were circa 12,000,000 victims of the
> Holocaust – both Jewish and non-Jewish (take a look at these pages for
> confirmation.)

> Giwer may be right about SWC and if he is, they ought to adjust their
> page.

> However, the assertion Giwer makes above runs counter to the historical
> reality of this newsgroup.

Glossary of the Holocaust, SWC

HOLOCAUST
The destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their
followers in Europe
between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were
persecuted and
suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were
marked for complete and
utter annihilation. The term “Holocaust” – literally meaning “a
completely burned sacrifice”
– tends to suggest a sacrificial connotation to what occurred. The
word Shoah, originally
a Biblical term meaning widespread disaster, is the modern Hebrew
equivalent.

From [email protected] Wed Jul 3 21:00:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48082 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:56:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 03 4:59:39 PM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48082 alt.censorship:87400

[emai