Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p7

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 09:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 46116 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!pravda.aa.msen.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:09:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 9:11:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

> This one was brought several times by the exterminationist to ‘proove’
> the existence of a gas chamber in Auschwitz. It is this famous letter
> of the 29 January 1943 :

> ‘The Crematorium II has been completed -save for some minor constructional
> work – by the use of all the forces available, in spite of unspeakable
> difficulties, the severe cold, and in 24 hours shifts. The fires
> were started in the ovens in the presence of Senior Engineer Prfurer,
> representative of the contractors of the firm Topf and Sons, Erfurt,
> and they are working most satisfactorilly. The formwork for the reinforced
> concrete ceiling of the mortuary cellar (Leichenkeller) could not yet
> be removed on account of the frost. This, however, unimportant, as the
> Vergasungskeller [“gassing cellar”] can be used for this purpose.’

> As probably most of the people know it here, the german word for
> gas chamber is ‘gaskammer’, and vergasungskeller mean something like
> ‘gazeifaction ceil’, and this led Butz to believe few decades ago that

Or, if one does not fixate upon what the passage is supposed to refer
to, then it reads as though the Vergasungskeller could be used instead
of the Leichenkeller as a mortuary. Given the different names in the
same document it appears to clearly discuss two different Kellern.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 09:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 46118 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:16:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:18:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>
>>
>>[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>
>>>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>>>Question:
>>>> The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>>>>is:
>>>>
>>>> A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>>>>
>>>> B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>>>>money.
>>>
>>>Q: Does revisionism always comes to this– the idea that Jews manipulate
>>>history in order to manipulate the world? As Moran’s second choice implies,
>>>it seems to run from gnawing resentment to accusations of massive fraud.
>>>
>> I see you have chosen “B.” Interesting. You have chosen correct.
>
>No, I was trying to point to the way revisionists must assume this sort of
>conspiracy theory. Sorry to have confused you.

There was no conspiracy to name Andersonville Prison during the US Civil
War a death camp but it was. There is no need to assume conspiracy when
simple stupidity will suffice.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:49:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46132 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56054

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:52:58 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>>>>[snip]

>>>>>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>member of this so-called “Gang of Six.”

>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>>>> I got the contributor’s list from Nizkor. Tell them to take you off of
>>>>it if you do not want the honor. Until they take you off, don’t
>>>>complain to me.

>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

>> There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to plan
>>how to deal with people. It is clearly implied that it is the Nizkor
>>gang. As they appear to all have the new approach the next day, the
>>posts have been confirmed.

>> When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>brush. Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.

>In other words, you are accusing me personally of conspiring to
>prevent discussion on alt.revisionism

>1) on the basis of inferences about the posts of other people
>2) about unspecified posting practices which I may or may
> not have adopted
>3) and through guilt by association

>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>withdraw the allegation.

Guilt by association will go just fine.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:53 PDT 1996
Article: 46133 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:53:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:55:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>[snip]

>>I have learned from hard experience that the Friends of Nizkor comprises
>>more than a few who are not interested either in honest debate or truth
>>per se. I also know from personal experience that their number includes
>>more than one malicious guttersnipe whose sole purpose is to substitute
>>ridicule, abuse, and lies in place of reasoned debate. Therefore I will
>>not waste my time responding to challenges, or even prose essays such as
>>this, from essentially dishonest conventionalists.

>I am surprised Mr. Ehrlich. You seem to have very tender sensitivities, and
>perhaps you should stay away from here if that is the case. If you think
>some the arrows directed your way up to now are bad, you should only pray
>that the besotted Giwer

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

doesn’t decide to turn his tender attentions to you.
>You appear to me to make a mistake in terminology in the above. You talk
>about “dishonest conventionalists”. If you have studied history as much as
>you claim, you know that statement is wrong; it is the deniers who are
>dishonest.

>>It is clear that no one seriously communicates with anyone here, but
>>rather, to an anonymous band of lurkers. My mistake, which I freely
>>admit, was to take the people on this board as earnest and tolerant
>>individuals. In far too many cases they are not. Therefore, if I now
>>repost, it is with an awareness that nothing will be achieved by
>>communicating with you. And I am not reposting for your sake. I am
>>posting for my friends, who come on _both_ sides of the aisle. But I
>>doubt if you could ever grasp that.

>Perhaps you should address those remarks to Mr. Giwer, who is now reduced,
>in his pathetic desperation and desolation, to spamming the newsgroup with
>denier reposts that several deniers are feeding him. The deniers have
>lost–the game is over.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:54 PDT 1996
Article: 46140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Adolf Hitler was the greatest man who ever walked thi
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:19:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:22:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>said:

>>

>>[email protected] (M Huber) babbles:
>>
>># Yes, Matt, he’s so excited. Probably masterbating in front of # pictures
>>of holocaust victims.
>>
>>”masterbating”? Is that a new word?

>Any word of more than two syllables is new to this creature, Danny.
>>
>>Maybe “master baiting”?
>>
>>Learn English, you deranged Nazi twerp.

>Don’t hold your breath.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46155 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:23:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 7:25:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:11184 alt.revisionism:46155

Alexander Baron wrote:

>In article
> [email protected] “Craig J Neumeier” writes:
>> > Fifth, eyewitnesses also had motivation, revenge.

>Correct

>>
>> This is why I referred to the Nazis as well as the victims as
>> eyewitnesses. It is hard to see what possible motivation Eichmann had
>> for lying under oath to the Israeli court that tried him. (It is also
>> odd that *not* *one* camp survivor agrees with the revisionists.)

>Not true.

>> Historians simply do not work this way. An enormous body of coherent
>> evidence, from many different sources and more than one perspective,
>> cannot be simply dismissed with vague references to the unreliability of
>> eyewitnesses. If it could, we would be forced to disbelieve in, say, the
>> English Civil War, let alone the existence of most major historical
>> figures from Socrates to FDR.

>What about all the witnesses to the UFO crash and subsequent cover-up at
>Roswell?

It is also rather interesting that there is a claim that historians
(noting how really few there are on this subject compared to the number
of writers) are needed to determine what happened when it should all be
clearly available in the prosecution’s case.

However, since their effort appears to be papering over the
prosecution’s case it is not quite reasonable to call any of them
historians.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:28:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 8:31:08 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># The situation is that some years ago there was an organized
># effort by at least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order
># to prevent revisionism to be discussed.

>And outright lie from a pathological liar.

># They brag about having driven off everyone who tries to discuss
>revisionism.

>Example?

You must be blind.

># They use any method open to them. They start with simple verbal abuse
># which one has to expect in an alt conference. But then it goes to
># harrassing people ISP, the person personally, and even their families.
># All of this happened in my case.

>I suggest you watch it, nazi-boy. You are making a strong accusation
>here. I certainly did not harass your family, neither your ISP. I
>pity your family, actually.

I gave only the short list. I left out the phone calls, the mail bombs
and a couple other things.

># These people are the real scum of the earth.

>Now tell us more about Belsen camp which you claimed was in Poland,
>and about your claim that Zyklon does not release HCN in a temperature
>of 20 degrees.

Holohuggers are still scum.

>the future of “revisionism” depends on your reply.

And remain scum.

>Get dem famous 163 IQ points you brag about to work and get some
>answers, quick.

And will never be any better.

>We also want to hear more about your claim that the mention of “gas
>chamber” and “gassing cellar” in SS documents is due to a “morbid
>sense of humor” of the people writing the documents.

>Explain this to us poor folks who don’t have 163 IQ.

You mean how I singlehandedly hijacked this conference? Weren’t you
taking notes?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46160 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!caen!reeve.research.aa.wl.com!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:24:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 8:26:47 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>## Where is Mr. Hunt’s evidence for such traces on the *outside* of
>## homicidal gas chambers.

># If there are none, why were you folks arguing there was a couple
># months ago?

>I guess it is useless to ask you for the article in which this
>claim was made? You are *never* able to find these articles in
>which you claim “you”, or “you folks”, claimed this-and-that,
>right?

It is right there on Nizkor. Why can’t you find it?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 16:43:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46166 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:40:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56077 alt.revisionism:46166

[email protected] (Fidelio) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>->In article ,
>->[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>->>
>->>Well, they got their fill of skeptics! Not a single one of the people I
>->>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
>->>return to alt.revisionism. They say it’s because we regulars on
>->>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren’t professional
>->>enough for them.

>->And they are right.

>> Not only mudslinging but harrassment of service providers, of the people
>>and of their families personally. These people are scum. They also
>>harrass employers when it is possible to do so.

>What, Boursy and Vulis post on alt.revisionism you mean ? Sounds like them.

Not those two. There is a whole different crowd on alt.revisionism.
They even mention email planning how to get people. They even edit
messages to post them to abuse.misc to make it look like I am the one
abusing the newsgroup. The whole thing is a setup against me. One more
attempt in a long list.

There most likely response to the above is to demand messages that prove
what I said and the like. But their objective is to distract me from
spending time on the purpose of this conference, the discussion of
revisionism. That is what they do not want discussed. And you have
seen the lengths they will go to, to prevent it from being discussed.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46167 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:24:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:27:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> > But matty-poo you told us that trial transcripts are only in Q&A format.
>> >This can’t be from the source that you cited. By your own statement you are
>> >relying on a paraphrase from a seconadary source.
>>
>> I see. Different rules for thee and me.

> That seems to be your position, Matty-poo. The standards I posted are
>those *you* insist on in others.

> Your objection seems to be that you doi not have to adhere to them.

When do they start complying with those standards?

Let me know when you see some. I might miss it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46171 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:59:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 12:01:42 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: The first libel in any such exchange was against me in that I was called
>: without cause, both antisemitic and a nazi.

>(1) Do you stand by your opinion that the Jewish culture of Eastern
>Europe was no great loss?

This was AFTER the initial libel.

>(2) Do you maintain that expressing such an opinion cannot be reasonably
>interpreted to be an expression of antisemitism?

No rational person could construe it as such. The loss of Hun culture
>from Eastern Europe was no great loss either. So what?

>(3) Why do you think that someone’s calling you “antisemitic” or “a nazi”
>is libelous? For your fan club, those terms are compliments, and for
>everyone else, you never had any reputation that could have been harmed.

That is also libel.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:48 PDT 1996
Article: 46173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘NO Holocaust, NO Dresden, NO WW2, NO NOTHING!’
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:38:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:40:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>[To [email protected] (John DAmato)]

># I have no idea what your point is in all of this.

>And yet you have an alleged IQ of 163. Amazing.

># OK, Dresden was not fire bombed. What difference does it make?

>The point is, of course, that if one adopts “revisionist” methods,
>one can easily “prove” that Dresden was never bombed, and that WW2
>never took place.

You can not prove anything. One can only consider the evidence.

Didn’t Brown teach you any better than that?

>This is one of the factors which make “Holocaust revisionism”
>something which is devoid of any intellectual value. It is, very
>simply, Nazi propaganda. What I can’t understand is why some
>”revisionists” keep playing this stupid “I’m not a Nazi” game.

No, you gassing is Allied propaganda and rather clearly identified as
such.

It is rather you folks who indulge in gratutous libel with the name
calling in hopes of silencing those who point out the nonsense you
insist everyone believe.

>You really think you’re fooling anyone?

I would never try to fool anyone by claiming there is any physical
evidence whatsoever regarding your gassing beliefs.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46178 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:26:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 8:29:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46178 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56093

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
>> >> with the conspirators.
>> >>
>> >> It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
>> >> himself with the conspirators.
>>
>> >So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position
>> >with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?
>>
>> This is not about the Clintons. I have no such associations. Or has
>> someone been spreading that rumor behind my back?

>Let’s see, you use the same language and hold the same position
>as the following group of luminaries:

>Ernst Zundel, censorship hypocrite and the author of a well-researched
> document on Nazi UFOs from the South Pole.

>David Irving, convicted of libel.

>George Burdi, assault.

>Tom Metzger, convicted of inciting a murder.

>Tom Moran, proven liar.

>Need I continue? Remember, “guilt by association is just fine”.
>You said it.

The above connections being first made by holohuggers are where I got
the idea that guilt by association was acceptable in this NG. Do you
have some problem with it being used about holohuggers?

>Oh, I assume that this means that *all* Germans were responsible
>for crimes committed by Nazis in WW2? Guilt by association, no?

That is a popular wisdom on the holohuggers.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46179 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:38:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 12:40:46 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># No smoke at all. Is that good enough for you?
>
>No.

># Remember, these were standard design crematoria that were
># in cities all over Germany. Sure, very sensitive noses
># in cities, right?

>Which is probably why the residents of cities in which
>camp crematoriums were located, did complain about the smoke?

Not from the Kremas save in very unusual weather conditions. You do
know what chimneys are for, don’t you?

>## What do you think, BTW, about the stories regarding the bombing
>## of Dresden?
>##
>## People turning into “fine, gray ashes”, and “melting into
>## puddles 3-4 foot deep”, although fire didn’t even touch
>## them, or “glowing orange and blue and turning into cinders”,
>## or whatever.
>##
>## Will you also ridicule these stories? I guess not.
>
># There is physical evidence of the fire bombing of Dresden.

>You mean you actually found these “puddles of melted human
>flesh”? Sorry, but this is the type of argument you people
>use.

No, that it not what I said at all.

>Now, tell us what the evidence is. But this is the game: we’re
>allowed to use “revisionist” style arguments to question it.

Aerial films from the planes that conducted the bombing. German films
of the destruction. Buildings that had been there for centuries
missing. Little things like that.

The entire process and aftermath documented. Little things like that.

>You will very quickly see that, using “revisionist” techniques,
>one can easily “prove” that Dresden was never bombed. Hell,
>one can “prove” that WW2 never happened.

If you folks can come up with films documenting the entire gassing
process you will have come a long way.

># There is no physical evidence for you gassing stories.

>By the very same standards of debate which allow to claim that
>there is no physical evidence for WW2.

>Go ahead, present your physical evidence that WW2 happened.

Lets stick with Dresden for the moment.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 21:32:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46185 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:47:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:49:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>RuthSommer wrote:
>>
>>That has got to be one of the most incredible and rediculous stories I
>>have ever heard –
>>being able to tell from the smoke and flames coming out of a chimney,
>>which bodies
>>were being burned and where they came from.

> The person who told this story admitted at the Zundel trial that it
>was hearsay. But actually, in theory such a thing would be possible –
>different fuels can change smoke and flame somewhat, and some people are
>fatter than others.

What the person admitted is a common eyewitness report, proving they
were not eyewitnesses.

If you have been paying attention to the crematoria discussions at all,
you would know what you are saying is not possible.

>>Why aren’t these kinds of stories questioned, laughed at, rejected, and
>>ridiculed,
>>more often? Are there unspoken rules being applied here, that prohibit
>>this?
>>
>>This censorship thing is amazing. If a Jew says something, it cannot be
>>questioned.

> No, that’s not true. The principle is this: if someone claims to have
>seen something, you cannot arbitrarily say it is false Because! I! Say!
>So! You have to have a reason.

Because it is not possible is an excellant reason.

> When I first heard the story and thought it over to decide if it
>_could_ be true or not, I _only_ heard about the color part. _Without_
>knowing the full story behind the claim, I surmised that it might have
>something to do with fat people vs. skinny people. Only then did I hear
>that this is exactly what the person telling the story claimed.

What did you consider when you thought it over? Or have you never seen
the color of smoke from burning fat?

> Holocaust “revisionists” claim that crematoria cannot shoot out
>flames. Ordinarily they do not. But I actually talked to someone who
>designed one of the cremation systems currently sold, a Mr. Steven Looker
>of B&L Cremation Systems. Without any prompting from me, he volunteered
>that older crematoria _could_ shoot out flames if overloaded – the
>phenomenon was called a “candle.” He even said that while his product was
>designed to prevent it, he thought that if he really tried, he could get
>it to do the same thing. And there is a record of one of the chimneys
>needing repair due to a fire.

Igniting flue gas can be done. It will damage the chimney. However
that does not match the stories which talk about day and night. That
proves the eyewitnesses were not eyewitnesses, none of them.

>>That’s what I infer from all this. And how much eyewitness testimony from
>>the
>>Holocaust is similarly unquestioningly accepted, like this smoke and
>>flames nonsense?

> A surprising number of things are not as nonsensical as they first
>seem. Now, as I said, the person who told the story admitted it was
>hearsay so you may discount it on that basis. And you may still think it
>unlikely. But I don’t think you can flatly say that it is impossible.

The correct answer is, lots of things.

From [email protected].netcom.com Wed Jun 26 22:24:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46192 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:49:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:52:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56114 alt.revisionism:46192 alt.usenet.kooks:25867

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>In the last twelve to eighteen months, revisionists have pretty much
>>>figured out that Usenet is not the place for them. It’s too easy for
>>>their arguments to be taken apart. Which is ironic, since for the past
>>>ten or twenty years, they’ve been complaining that what they really want
>>>is just the chance to be heard and to discuss their ideas freely, with
>>>skeptics.
>>
>> But you folks are unable to do so. Rather as I have seen you do is post
>>some nonsense and declare victory just as you do on Nizkor.

> In debate, when a factual argument is unanswered, then yes, the person
>who failed to answer loses by default.

That is not what happens. When nonsense is posted and it is pointed out
to be nonsense, the nizkorites declare victory claiming it was not up to
their lofty, prescientific standards.

>>>Well, they got their fill of skeptics! Not a single one of the people I
>>>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
>>>return to alt.revisionism. They say it’s because we regulars on
>>>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren’t professional
>>>enough for them. I say it’s because they got their facts and logic torn
>>>apart by a bunch of amateurs. The reader can make up his or her own
>>>mind — though I suggest first reading Mike Stein’s autopsy of the
>>>”diesel” arguments of Friedrich Berg, at:
>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>>
>> And this makes a perfect example of posting anything and declaring
>>victory.

> Friedrich Berg never answered. You are of course welcome to pick up
>where he left off.

I will deal with my own statements.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:08 PDT 1996
Article: 46196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:50:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 148
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:53:20 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>BEING A “REVISIONIST SCHOLAR” IS EASY! SEE FOR YOURSELF!

Being an exterminationist is equally easy, stop thinking.

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Explain it by supplying “physical evidence” that WW2 took place.
>## This is not meant as a joke; I want to know what “revisionists”
>## mean by “physical evidence”.
>
># As to Dresden there exist the plans for the bombing.

>Sorry ’bout that. According to “revisionists”, documents don’t
>count. You get an F for this one.

You do not even know how to play the game. The documents all clearly
state the purpose. It is not like the one in 100,000 documents that
implies gassing.

># There are the bomb camera pictures that trace by reel and flight
># number to the bombing that shot the bombing itself. There are
># films of the results taken both from the air and on the ground by
># the Allies and the Germans respectively.

>Sorry ’bout that. According to “revisionists”, photographs don’t
>count. You get an F for this one too.

Sorry but the pictures are of the bombings themselves. It is not you
pictures of bodies dead from disease and starvation from the end of the
war that are palmed off as proof of gassing during the war. The films
are of the bombings themselves. You have no films of the gassings
themselves.

># When Dresden was liberated much of the fire damaged was still
># there and observable.

>Huh? What? Where? When? A true “revisionist” would never accept
>a vague, meaningless, undocumented claim like this.

Viewable fact that matched the reconnaisance films made after the
bombing.

>More so because of the absurd testimonies about “puddles of
>melted human flesh”, and people who, although not exposed to
>the fire, turned into an “undulating layer of fine gray ash”.

You will note that at no time have I referred to any testimony. You
bring that in. It has nothing to do with physical evidence.

>And we have the estimates for the numbers of victims that
>range from 35,000 to 500,000. Another reason for a true
>”revisionist” to reject the story.

Again, nothing to do with physical evidence.

>Show me an airplane that was used for that alleged bombing
>and prove to me it was indeed used. A PHYSICAL PROOF.

As I said NO PROOF. I am providing physical evidence. That is what you
folks completely lack for your gassing.

># There were clearly missing buildings that had been there
># for centuries.

>Huh? What? Where? When? A true “revisionist” would never accept
>a vague, meaningless, undocumented claim like this. Name such
>a building and supply physical proof that it was there before
>it was “missing”.

>(Must say, boys and girls, this “revisionism” schtik is
>soooo easy to pull!! 🙂 )

You are trying to play a game you are unqualified to play. It is quite
amazing that someone can get a PhD and not know the difference between
physical evidence and testimony or confuse physical evidence with proof.
Of course one can not get a CS degree without knowing the latter
distinction.

Therefore you are deliberately attempting to mislead people.

># And all of this documentation is clearly marked and connected
># to the written master plan for the firebombing of Dresden.

>You have presented no physical evidence, no documentation,
>nothing. Everything you have presented would have been immediately
>rejected by a “revisionist” if it was presented as evidence for
>the Holocaust.

>And you know this. Stop playing games.

I did not agree to go through the exercise of looking up the original
material. And neither have you folks done that.

I am describing the physical evidence that exists. I am also describing
the physical evidence you folks do not have.

># What equivalent physical evidence do you folks have of gassing?

>The gas chambers that are still there, the human remains that are
>still there, documents, photographs, and the cyanide traces on
>the remains of the gas chambers.

Cyanide traces are every place there was fumigation. You folks can not
produce the remains of those you claim were killed by gassing. There
are no photographs of people being gassed. There are no gas chambers
there.

>This surely beats your evidence.

We have been over all of this. What you claim is evidence is after the
fact interpretation that attempts to force fit what you do have into a
particular story. That is what lead to this exchange.

This is not an opportunity to go back over your supposed evidence and
claim that it is. I have noted the evidence of the process as it
actually occurred. You have nothing more than you had to begin with.
Not one bit of physical evidence of the process.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:08 PDT 1996
Article: 46217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:38:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:40:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>> Mike Stein wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>> The were not driven out by namecalling. Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>>>
>>>>> They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>>>
>>>>> The only difference between you and them is, you don’t seem to mind be
>>>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie. That is your
>>>>>problem, not mine.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>>>You folks declared victory. You are now repeating the one sided
>>>>declaration of victory.
>>
>>> It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat. Contrary to
>>>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>>>yes, there was some – but you provide your share). They were presented
>>>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>>>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>>>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).
>>
>>> Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate. That game was
>>>agreed to. Debate is a game with well-understood rules. One of them is,
>>>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.
>>
>>> Who agreed to play your game? That is a relevant distinction.
>>
>> Debate was not the method here. Personal and family harrassment was the
>>name of the method here.

> Please post your evidence that any of the other people who left were
>victims of personal and family harrassment.

>> In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.

> Of course you dishonestly insinuate all are complicit in the actions
>of one or two. Who besides Marduk emailed your son? By your standard you
>are complicit in the mailbombing directed against Ken McVay before you
>ever appeared here. It was someone who agreed with you, ergo by your
>standards I am entitled to call that the “revisionist” method of debate,
>not just the methods of the one perpetrator.

In case you folks have missed it, it would be a trivial matter to shut
down Nizkor.

Beyond that, the only thing I read from the Nizkor types on the matter
were “denials” and “couldn’t happen to a nicer guy” kind of comments.
But you know that. So the Nizkorites were publically approving to the
point of encouraging that clown who idirect told combase, had root
access at idirect.

So have no complicity in any mailbombing of McVay as I neither condoned
more encouraged the person who did it. You holohuggers did both. That
makes you folks complicite.

> I am prepared to debate you. But you would have to start providing
>evidence and meeting the burden of proof for your claims. You seem to
>have some trouble with that. Would you care to finally produce your
>calculations for the number of calories needed to deal with the water in a
>corpse for cremation? Or show how you arrived at the 30,000 kcal figure
>you gave without any mention of the assumptions or formula used?

I made no claim of 30,000 kcal, but you know that. Obviously you are
not prepared to debate honestly as yet.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:09 PDT 1996
Article: 46218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 120
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:13:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46218 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56142

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) said:

>>
>>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[snip]

>>>>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>>>>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>>>>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>>>>withdraw the allegation.

>>> Guilt by association will go just fine.

>>I asked three times for evidence of his allegations; three times Mr. Giwer
>>failed to produce it.

>>Well, this is as close as anyone ever gets to getting an admission from
>>Mr. Giwer that his allegations are groundless, so I guess I’ll just have
>>to be satisified.

>Be satisfied that in your most terrified moment, you are not half as afraid
>as Giwer in his most courageous.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:10 PDT 1996
Article: 46222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer finally realized this?
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:20:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:22:42 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>[snip]

>>>Translation of relevant part (courtesy of Mr. Van-Alstine):
>>
>> Excuse me but which one is the translation? I really do not have all
>>that much time to play with Nizkor save on my terms.

> Does this mean that for the past five months he has been posting on
>someone else’s terms? And he only just now figured out his own terms? I
>guess that 163 IQ isn’t all it’s cracked up to be….

It was quite enough to crack this conference wide open.

Or have you not noticed all the new and old names that are back?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:11 PDT 1996
Article: 46223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SIRC and CSIS blindsides by the political process
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:23:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:26:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Orest Slepokura) wrote:

> The Globe and Mail [June 12] carried the following article on p. 4:

>__________________

> Report urges tougher CSIS guidelines

>OTTAWA–A Commons subcommittee says the Canadian Security Intelligence
>Service’s civilian watchdog didn’t show enough bite when it reviewed a
>covert operation involving the Nazi Heritage Front and its founder, Grant
>Bristow.

>Liberal MPs on the subcommittee recommend tougher guidelines for similar
>operations by CSIS in a draft report obtained by The Canadian Press
>yesterday.

>The six-member subcommittee on national security began its investigation
>in the fall of 1994 after it was revealed that a CSIS source on the Nazi
>movement, alleged to have been Mr. Bristow, was a founder of the Heritage
>Front.

>The report suggests a prohibition on sources who engage in illegal or
>discreditable activities and an amendment tothe CSIS ACT to allow the
>agency to warn people if it discovers they are in danger.

>–Canadian Press

If people are in danger? What the hell is going on up there? Sounds
like some third world country overrun with roving gangs or something.

Would you guys fix it before the silver beaver decide to stay over the
summer also?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:11 PDT 1996
Article: 46226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:48:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:51:40 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John DAmato)
>said:

>>
>>[email protected]
>>wrote a sentence that doesn’t seem to be english:

>>: I was given the explanation for her being alive to leave Auschwitz was
>>: that she was 15 and that everyone under that age was exterminated :
>>immediately.

>>Please try again or identify the language that you are writing in. The
>>same goes for this one:

>>: Any record of anyone younger than that available?

>John, you may be out of luck. As near as I can tell, Mr. McVay is the only
>expert in Giwerian-Trollish, and he may have missed that post.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 46227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:13:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:16:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46227 alt.politics.white-power:34204

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Laura Finsten
> said:

>>
>>[email protected] wrote:

>>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
>>>me in any manner.

>>Or not. Why haven’t you responded to the question I posted some days ago,
>>Mr. Giwer? I’ll repeat it for you here: By age 35, what degree of
>>closure is there in the lambdoidal, coronal and sagittal sutures of the
>>human cranium, on average? Which elements of the pelvis fuse, normally,
>>and why what age, on average?

>Giwer has not responed, in spite of his boast that he will respond to any
>ppost that mentions him, because you have caught him in another lie. His
>desperation is starting to show, as you will have noticed in a recent post
>where he accused Mike Stein of having deleted his calculations on fat
>burning. This in spite of the fact that no search engine known to man can
>find the alleged post. Why? Because it is yet another lie.

>>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.

>>This isn’t crap, Mr. Giwer. It is a true truth of science. Since you
>>claim be a scientific wizard, answering this should be easy for you. Once
>>you’ve done that, perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion of the
>>effects of cremation on the human skeleton.

>Mr. Giwer’s only acquaintance with science is watching the occasional TV
>program, assuming he is able to stay awake for the entire show.

>>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>>>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>>>will get down to cases on my terms.

>>Here the concern is with bones, not spam.

>Funny how Mr. Giwer thinks he “controls” the conference with his spamming.
>As I have said before, Giwer and the other misfits are but pale imitations
>of the first-string deniers that fled the newsgroup sometime ago. Giwer
>couldn’t spam half as well on his best day as the late Dan (vile liar)
>Gannon on his worst. What a pathetic third-stringer.

>>> There is nothing in between.

>>Well, that’s the issue, isn’t it? What is between those skeletal
>>elements? When is it replaced by solid bone, if it is at all?

>>> I hope you folks come to understand this.

>>Hope you can find the answers.

>Giwer doesn’t find answers. He runs away.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:13 PDT 1996
Article: 46228 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:16:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31ca5836.4868839 <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:18:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1549 alt.revisionism:46228

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >>The actual law was passed in the fourteenth
>> >>>century to protect the Magnates from slander. Britain repealed its
>> >>>false news law in the 1880s. Canada never repealed it because it was
>> >>>never used until Zuendel was charged under it in a private prosecution
>> >>>whcih was unfortunately supported by the Attorney General’s office of
>> >>>Ontario. Your “blatant misrepresentation” is actually a minor quibble
>> >>>over the meaning of “news.”
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me, just how is news defined in Canada?
>>
>> > Excuse me, but wouldn’t the proper question be: how was news defined
>> >in Britain in the fourteenth century?
>>
>> And how might it be defined there?

>”The actual law was passed in the fourteenth
> century to protect the Magnates from slander.”

>They were right. Repetition does help in learning.

Can you explain how Jews are Magnates in Canada?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 46253 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – bellcurve.gif (0/1) Re: New whopper of the week: Negroes invented Crime
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:50:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:53:35 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23835 alt.politics.white-power:34215 alt.revisionism:46253

Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>[snip]

>>M&H also say that IQ is most likely the determinant factor of
>>socioeconomic potential–not socioeconomics of IQ potential as is seen in
>>the study of twins.
>>
>>–
>>Georgie Boy
>>3So you want to have a baby, huh?2

>That’s a fine thing for M&H to say, and it might even be true, but the
>basic assumption of their thesis is that genetic predictors of IQ,
>specifically those associated with ‘race,’ are the cause of
>African-American socio-economic disadvantage.

That has nothing to do with it. You have never read the book. Stop
lying about it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 46257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:19:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 3:22:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Richard
>Widmann) wrote:

>> Revisionists – I thought I would share this recent article by Mr.
>> Grieb with the book. He has some fascinating insights.
>>
>>
>> Pat Buchanan and the Diesel Exhaust Controversy
>> By Conrad Grieb
>>
>> (NOTE: The original of this article is available with graphics at:
>> http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/gcgv/gcpatill.html)
>>
>>
>> IN HIS MARCH 4, 1996 column in “Newsweek”
>> magazine, George F. Will attacked Patrick J. Buchanan for his March
>> 17, 1990 column about Diesel exhaust. Buchanan had written: “Diesel
>> engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody. In 1988, 97
>> kids trapped 400 feet underground in a Washington, D.C., tunnel while two
>> locomotives spewed diesel exhaust into the car, emerged unharmed after 45
>> minutes….”

>[snip]

>Now, what _did_ Buchanan actually say in his article regarding diesel
>exhaust? Why, he wrote the following [1]:

>================================================================================

>Buchanan, Pat: “Dividing Line.” _New York Post_, Saturday, March 17, 1990.

>’IVAN THE TERRIBLE’ – MORE DOUBTS

>”…Finally, the death engine. During the war, the underground government
>of the Warsaw Ghetto reported to London that the Jews of Treblinka were
>being electrocuted and steamed to death.

>”The Israeli court, however, concluded that the murder weapon for
>850,000 was the diesel engine from a Soviet tank which drove its exhaust
>into the death chamber. All died in 20 minutes, Finkenstein swore in 1945.

>”The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to
>kill anybody. In 1988, 97 kids, trapped 400 feet underground in a
>Washington, DC tunnel while two locomotives spewed diesel exhaust into the
>car, emerged unharmed after 45 minutes.

>”Demjanjuk’s weapon of mass murder cannot kill….”

>================================================================================

>Here we see that Buchanan plays the “innuendo card,’ something also
>frequently done by Holocaust deniers, to plant a seed of doubt about the
>credibility of the use of gas chambers at Treblinka by saying: “…were
>being electrocuted and steamed to death.” While it is true that during the
>war such reports were made it should also be made clear, however, that
>people making these reports observed from afar

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

or related rumors.
>Treblinka was not a place were Polish partisans could casually walk up to
>the (electrified) fence and snap pictures of Jews being shot in droves or
>herded by the hundreds into the gas chambers. And certainly, since the war
>ended, and the various war crimes trials regarding the attrocities at
>Treblinka taking place, there have been numerous testimonies detailing the
>methods by which hundreds of thousands of people who were gassed to death
>with deisel exhaust.

>Furthermore, in saying that the “Israeli court, however, concluded”
>Buchanan is being slyly disingenous- implying that the court concluded
>something new- and therefore controversial. That couldn’t be further from
>the truth, as it has been _known_ for decades by historians and Holocaust
>researchers that the gas chambers Treblinka used deisel exhaust for method
>of homicidal gassing. The court simply confirmed this known fact.

The IMT knew from the above close up description that there really was
steaming of people at Treblinka.

Why do you folks keep trying to avoid what you know is on record?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 46258 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:39:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 12:41:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Michael P. Stein wrote:

>> > I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
>> >be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
>> >The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
>> >using as sigs.
>>
>> I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
>> articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.

>Mr Giwer apparently defines the word “attack” to indicate those
>posts that prove him wrong. For example,

>http://xp3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10860794&server=dnserver.dbapr&CONTEXT=835574075.22908&hitnum=3

>I suppose one could label this sort of thing an attack as it
>demonstrates the fact that Mr Giwer tends to make statements
>that he cannot support.

My tagline, my choice.

Do you have a problem with that?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:16 PDT 1996
Article: 46259 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:36:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:39:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John DAmato) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>:
>: >I don’t understand what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>:
>: The same thing it means in court and in science. It does not mean
>: testimony.
>:
>: >Explain it by supplying “physical evidence” that WW2 took place.
>: >This is not meant as a joke; I want to know what “revisionists”
>: >mean by “physical evidence”.
>:
>: I am sticking to Dresden at this point to keep you from hopping
>: around to muddy the waters.
>:
>: As to Dresden there exist the plans for the bombing. There are the
>: bomb camera pictures that trace by reel and flight number to the bombing
>: that shot the bombing itself. There are films of the results taken both
>: from the air and on the ground by the Allies and the Germans
>: respectively. When Dresden was liberated much of the fire damaged was
>: still there and observable. There were clearly missing buildings that
>: had been there for centuries. [etc.; snip]

>You seem to be creating a false dichotomy between testimony and physical
>evidence. Behind this seems to lie an equally false distinction (as
>framed) between interpretation and “truth” or “reality.”

>Physical evidence is not admissible at trial without a foundation. Such a
>foundation consists of testimony identifying the physical evidence and as
>to the circumstances through which the physical evidence was created, in
>which it was discovered, how it was collected, etc., etc. Physical
>evidence, in other words, is not admissible without someone’s act of
>interpretation. For example, your Dresden example will not work at court
>without some sort of foundation, e.g., the testimony of someone who
>was on a plane from which the photographs or films that you have indicated
>were shot, who could identify those photographs or films as the ones
>taken and who could attest that those photos and films were taken of bomb
>routes, the bombing itself or its effects, and do, in fact, fairly portray
>those matters. Afterall, films and photographs can be faked. How would
>we know that the photos and films you have indicated were not faked?

That is why it is called testmony, not evidence. The foundation would
establish what I say about the reel and flight numbers connecting them
with the mission and the like.

The gassing however is all testimony only.

>Scientific evidence is similarly useless without an exposition of the
>methods through which it was generated and, if construed merely as the
>physical artifacts of experimentation, is completely unintelligible
>except from the perspective of some theory, in fact, is unthinkable but
>for such a perspective, i.e., but for an act of interpretation.

>Whether in court or in science, the world, in short, does not speak to us.
>We must interrogate it, think about it, in a word, interpret it to turn it
>into meaning.

>Ergo, the issue for making a choice as to one position or another is not
>whether the one or the other relies upon interpretation–it should go
>without saying that both will–but the methods that were used in making
>the interpretations, including the assumptions entailed by the
>interpretations.

>The main challenge to the revisionist position is Occam’s Razor. I have
>yet to see a coherent answer to this challenge.

>Perhaps you’d like to provide one.

Occam’s razor, you mean the least number of hypothesis that will explain
events? Death from disease and towards the end starvation and probably
lack of water in most cases can adequately explain all the deaths with
the superfluous gas chambers being added.

Why are they necessary?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 07:33:17 PDT 1996
Article: 46272 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:37:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:40:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## No. A “gassing cellar” is mentioned. A “gas chamber” is mentioned.
>## Detectors for cyanide gas are mentioned. Reports of the gassing
>## exist. Gas-tight doors are mentioned. There are the Becker and
>## Just letters to Rauff. There’s Wetzel’s letter. There’s more.
>
># We have been over this many times. Degesh sold standardized gas
># chambers for delousing. Their ad claim was that it had deloused the
># possessions of 25M people. It used cyanide. Yes, certainly they
># would have cyanide detectors.
>
>Are you suggesting that cellar I in Kremas II and III was a
>delousing chamber?

I am suggesting they were morgues.

>The Frank-Gricksch report, the letters to Rauff mentioned above,
>and Wetzel’s letter, all mention people being killed by gassing.
>What does this have to do with delousing?

Not quite but then what do a couple of dubious origin letters have to do
with thousands of contrary statements about morgues?

Only in the imagination of holohuggers.

>BTW, is this explanation for the “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the documents a new one? See below.

I did see below, see my response to your crap. Want to lick my steps?

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 11:41:58 PDT 1996
Article: 11192 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:00:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:02:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Raider Goo wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Raider Goo wrote:
>> >On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >> Is there a problem with considering revisionism an alternate history?
>> >> At least there appear to be enough people here that know history to be
>> >> able to separate revisionism from what really happened. Not so?
>>
>> > Matt Giwer’s meanderings are chock full of two scoops of bullshit,

> More Meanderings snipped
>
>> > I’m glad that the Allies beat the pulp out of the Nazis, and strung
>> >up some of ’em. My regret is that Hitler didn’t get tried and executed.
>>
>> Strung them up is exactly what they did. After Judge Roy Bean got
>> through with them.

> Like I said, hooray for our side.
>>
>> > Matt Giwer is deliberately trolling to plant the seeds of doubt and
>> >cloud the clarity of the collective memories of humanity.
>>
>> You should know as well as anyone that if all the memories of what
>> people did during the war were true, there were millions of CMOs that
>> went unawarded.

> Let me be more explicit shit for brains. There is a major quantum
>leap in the stories my grandfather wove about his exploits in the
>Phillipines in 1944 as a truck driver and part time black marketeer in
>comic books and the bullshit you’re spewing over the blood steeped hands
>of the Nazis. I know that Chazzie Re didn’t win the Second World War with
>Superman’s help. Minor individual delusions such as his are the gist of
>campfire tales and fond reminensces. I do know that you are selling a vile
>lie about the genocidical wrath of the Nazis, and passing it off as
>legitimate historical fact.

Doesn’t the lack of physical evidence for these mass gassings strike you
as rather strange? I can’t imagine that lack not arousing anyone’s
curiosity.

>> Matt Giwer is
>> >attempting to find a new home after his old haunts grew tired of sweetly
>> >formed conclusions of Nazi innocence with a few disparate facts while
>> >ignoring the huge body (and the dead bodies) of the Second World War era.
>>
>> What bodies do you think I am talking about?

> A few million German and East European Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals,
>Jehovah’s Witnesses, Slavs, Communists. etc, etc.

Neither the bodies nor the ashes from these supposed death camps have
ever been found either.

> Repeat after me…Adolph Hitler was one of human histories vilest
>members. The Nazis and their schemes of extermination were horrific.
>If you can do that, maybe you might deserve a bit of redemption. At least
>if you acknowledge out in front the evilness of Hitler you’d not merit
>immediate scorn.

I have read the infamous Wannsee Protocol that is supposed to be the
master plan for it and I do not find it mentioned. I have had a lot of
documents presented to me as such evidence and still have not found it.

Upon what basis have you decided it did occur?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46291 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:27:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4qq0rk$25o <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 11:30:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John DAmato) wrote:

>@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution:

>[email protected] wrote:
>: [email protected] (John DAmato) wrote:
>:
>: >[email protected] wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >I don’t understand what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>: >:
>: >: The same thing it means in court and in science. It does not mean
>: >: testimony.
>: >:
>: >: >Explain it by supplying “physical evidence” that WW2 took place.
>: >: >This is not meant as a joke; I want to know what “revisionists”
>: >: >mean by “physical evidence”.
>: >:
>: >: I am sticking to Dresden at this point to keep you from hopping
>: >: around to muddy the waters.
>: >:
>: >: As to Dresden there exist the plans for the bombing. There are the
>: >: bomb camera pictures that trace by reel and flight number to the bombing
>: >: that shot the bombing itself. There are films of the results taken both
>: >: from the air and on the ground by the Allies and the Germans
>: >: respectively. [snip]
>:
>: >You seem to be creating a false dichotomy between testimony and physical
>: >evidence. Behind this seems to lie an equally false distinction (as
>: >framed) between interpretation and “truth” or “reality.”
>:
>: >Physical evidence is not admissible at trial without a foundation. Such a
>: >foundation consists of testimony identifying the physical evidence and as
>: >to the circumstances through which the physical evidence was created, in
>: >which it was discovered, how it was collected, etc., etc. Physical
>: >evidence, in other words, is not admissible without someone’s act of
>: >interpretation. For example, your Dresden example will not work at court
>: >without some sort of foundation, e.g., the testimony of someone who
>: >was on a plane from which the photographs or films that you have indicated
>: >were shot, who could identify those photographs or films as the ones
>: >taken and who could attest that those photos and films were taken of bomb
>: >routes, the bombing itself or its effects, and do, in fact, fairly portray
>: >those matters. Afterall, films and photographs can be faked. How would
>: >we know that the photos and films you have indicated were not faked?
>:
>: That is why it is called testmony, not evidence. The foundation would
>: establish what I say about the reel and flight numbers connecting them
>: with the mission and the like.

>First, testimony is evidence. Second, I take it that by “foundation”
>in the above sentence you are referring to some person’s testimony as to
>photos and films. If not, please tell me what you mean by “foundation.”

>If so, please tell me why I should believe any such testimony concerning
>the Dresden photos and films to which you have alluded. Isn’t it true
>that the person providing such testimony could lie? Why should I believe
>the person? If the person providing the foundation for the photos and films
>is lying, isn’t it true that the photos and films are worthless as
>evidence?

>I have no comment, at this time, on the remainder of your remarks,
>which I leave, undisturbed, below.

I have no idea what your point is in all of this. OK, Dresden was not
fire bombed. What difference does it make?

>: The gassing however is all testimony only.

It is certainly not worth calling names over as is the Holocaust.
Believe what you want. Speak what you want. It won’t change a thing.

I have no emotional load regarding what you believe or speak in the
least. I was engaging in this exercise solely to demonstrate the
difference.

If you want to hold there is no value to physical evidence then you are
also holding that should physical evidence ever turn up regarding this
gassing it too is of no value.

It is really not clear where you are going with all of this.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:24:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:26:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >The book “The Belsen Trial” contains the trial’s transcript.
>> >That is a fact. There’s nothing you can do about it. It
>> >contains the speeches of the prosecution and the defense,
>> >the questions the witnesses were asked, and their answers,
>> >as well as some affidavits.
>>
>> >It also contains these photographs that you like to drool
>> >over, but that’s a different matter.
>>
>> I agree you are working from a derivative source as though it were an
>> original source.

> And who are you agreeing with. It can’t be Keren for he said the
>opposite. Is it your friend Jack Daniels? Or your other friend Jim Beam?

Character assassination is also one of those honest debate techniques
you folks claim to use.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:07:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:09:46 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:20:21 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:02:19 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>I, for one, would be very interested in hearing about it.
>>
>>>[“It” being the technical reasons why industrial incinerators were not
>>>used in place of crematoria]
>>
>>>> First consider the alternate term, ovens. They are designed like ovens
>>>>so that the inside can be heated to where the water boils off and the
>>>>solid remains can ignite. In principle it is not different from any
>>>>oven design.
>>
>>>> For example, in an oven effort is made to spread the heat out evenly to
>>>>avoid exposing the item to direct flames. If one goes to a solid fuel
>>>>oven the oven is similarly shielded from the flames. The reason for
>>>>this is very simple, if it is not done, the food will burn.
>>
>>>This is just stupid. The purpose of a crematorium is to burn corpses,
>>>not to cook to them. A crematorium is an incinerator for bodies.
>>
>>>You can’t even say that you know whether the type of industrial
>>>incinerators you describe even existed in 1943. All you have done is
>>>raise an objection which is a variant on the idea that because you can
>>>think of a better way of doing things, the things were never done. And
>>>you haven’t proved that incinerators were a better way to go.
>>
>> You pretended to be rational for a moment there. Why do you retreat
>>from that position?

>I din’t become irrational in my response. It is perfectly rational to
>characterize your “better way” as stupid, because that is what it is.
>On sober reflection, I should perhaps have used the word “silly.”

>Think about what you started off with: an alternate term for crematory
>is “oven.” An oven is for cooking, and an incinerator is for burning,
>so an incinerator would be better for burning.

>What is this? Proof by free association? If I had made an argument
>like that you’d already have called me a scientific illiterate.

Then of course you would expect all incinerators to be built like
crematoria because that is more efficient.

>> You avoided all of it and deleted so much of the response in order to
>>avoid answering the hard questions.

>What hard questions? I can’t believe you think that a cast iron
>incinerator would be a better way of burning corpses than a crematory
>retort lined with fire brick. You realize that a blast furnace
>crucible is lined with the same fire brick as a crematory retort.
>Blast furnaces can melt harder stuff than cast iron.

>What you have to show, I would think, is that commonly available
>incinerators of the 1930s and 1940s could reach higher burning
>temperatures and achieve greater capacities than crematoria of the
>same period. Analogies with BBQs will not do.

No retort would be required at all in an incinerator. The temperature
the bodies would be subjected to would be the temperature of the flames
and the burning fuel. Additionally camp trash can serve as fuel. It is
obviously a much more straightforward approach than those expensive
individual ovens.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 46296 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denier’s True Colours
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:43:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 258
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:45:55 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

>> John Morris wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
>> >>me in any manner.
>>
>> >>I will continue to do so until this crap stops.
>>
>> >>That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>> >>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>> >>will get down to cases on my terms.
>>
>> >>There is nothing in between.
>>
>> >>I hope you folks come to understand this.
>>
>> >Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>> >alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>> >his terms.
>>
>> I’ve search ‘spam’ in my dictionnary, not there… However the best I can
>> unders- tand his statement, he claim that he will continue to defend himsel
>> as far as people attack him, and that he can ‘get down to cases on his
>> terms’, something I think I understand as ‘driving the conference the
>way he
>> want’. I never eared this expression before, however isn’t Jamie McCarthy
>> who was refering to alt.revisionism as ‘our’ conference? (yours)
>> Yes, he’s ‘controlling’ this newsgroup in a certain sense, due to his large
>> output. What do you think, that alt.revisionism is your exclusive baby?
>>
>>
>> I don’t know if you are trying to justificate in advance something
>> that looks like censorship. Any word that he pronounce is taken as a
>> ‘justification’ for something, and I’m not blind.

>I fear you are, Mr. Beaulieu. Willfully so. If you wish to discuss such
>alleged “justification[s]” please have the courtesy to provide actual
>documented examples.

>> I’ve not the time actually to involve myself a lot, but you can be
>sure that > if a (second) cut from his provider happen, the true face of
>Nizkor will
>> appear.

>How so? I would think, rather, it would further evidence the true face of
>the Giwer-Troll. Namely that of a misanthropic bigot.

Notice the type of debate holohuggers want.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>> It is not ‘your’ newsgroup, if someone exasperate you as much as you
>> exasperate many people here, this is your problem.

>Indeed. Please remember those words in the future when the shoe might be
>on the other foot.

>> I’ve read somewhere that some people here consider Giwer as a liar, a troll
>> and so on. Let’s talk about what I saw on the opposite side now…

>[snip]

>You’re spouting drivel, Mr. Beaulieu. If you wish to “talk” about this
>please have the courtesy to provide actual documented examples.

Read the newsgroup. I have been noting examples of the “debate” you
folks claim to want including yours above.

>> The last game is to take a topic that was already discuss,
>> the question fuel/heat loss and to claim that my statement was that the
>> human body fo not provide an exothermic reaction.

>The question to the _Giwer-Troll_

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

was that of the combustion of the human
>body exothmeric or not.

The original question was whether only 2 Kg of coke per body was
sufficient. It then came down to the question of exothermic. To date
the only person who came even close to showing that it was some clown
who came up with some outrageous number of calories per gram of fat
showing an inability to divide.

>> You know prefectly that my last statements were not of that nature,
>but that
>> the heat production wasn’t compensing heat loss due to the cheminey. You
>> then take one of M. Stein account from a crematory operator and you claim
>> that this one was demolishing my statement !!!

>First, Mr. Beaulieu, you posted a trivial and error-ridden “analysis” of
>the heat tranaser mechanics of the Topf furnaces.

>Second, to make a realistic anyalisis of the heat transfer problem
>regarding the Topf furnaces you need to have a detailed understanding of
>the geometry and material composition of the furnace. You have yet to
>evidence such an understanding in your calculations, Mr. Beaulieu,
>therefore, until you do, your heat transfer “analysis” can be dismissed
>apriori.

As you have 1) no such knowledge and 2) no ability to judge how would
you know?

>Third, your (above) reiteration of your claim that the “heat production
>wasn’t compensing [for] heat loss due to the cheminey [sic]” is clearly
>false. As evidence of this I offer the following excerpt from the
>_Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration
>Furnace_:

>”After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
>reason, care be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above
>1100C (white heat)…. Thsi increase in temeprature can be avoided by
>introducing additional fresh air.” (_Technique_, p.136.)

>This, of course, supports the assertion that the combustion of the corpses
>acted as fuel for the incineration process, thus reducing the amount of
>coke needed to heat the furnace.

As I explained to you that is your misinterpretation. What it is saying
is that there is no longer water being evaporated to use up heat so the
temperature rises. You continue to confuse temperature and heat.

>> It wasn’t far from that and you know it. I’m sometimes tired of this
>lying > game in which you perform well, but I’m not so surprise.

>Mr. Beaulieu, your ad hominem attacks get you nowhere. Mr. Stein has not
>lied. Furthermore, that you would accuse him of such, consdering the
>indefensibility of your claims, comes as no suprise to me.

>> Ya , Giwer is not a triumph of modesty, he admit it himself.

>The Giwer-Troll is, in fact, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic
>and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing
>fights. While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has
>profusely and consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges
>(while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended
>not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
>when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and
>offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally
>conducted himself with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>> He’s definitivelly not doing anything that could looks like a war based on
>> the rules of chevilry, he shoot on the ambulances. This is the thing that
>> exist on the opposite side for 3 years at least.

>You’re spouting drivel again, Mr. Beaulieu. If you wish to make such
>claims please have the courtesy to provide actual documented examples.

Your attacks on me in this message are quite sufficient.

>> I’ve not see him trying to justificate in advance your expelling from
>> alt.revisionism however.

>Then you are blind, Mr. Beaulieu. Willfully so.

>> Let see if you’ll be able to face the ‘Giwer problem’ in the next months.

>Easily. Have no fear. The question is: Will the Giwer-Troll be able to?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:45:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:47:52 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Michael P. Stein wrote:

>> You have libeled me by posting to make people think I am guilty of
>>doing dishonest things I have not done, such as editing out your
>>computations of calorie requirements. So where did I call you antisemitic
>>and a Nazi? Please produce those posts. Or do you claim that if one
>>person libels you, you have the right to libel anyone you like?

>Not even I have called the person in question either of those things.
>I have called him a Nazi-apologist (a claim for which there is ample
>evidence). I have also posted evidence that one might interpret to say
>that he is an antisemite, but I have left that up to the reader to
>decide. To refresh some memories:

>Is Matt Giwer an antisemite? You be the judge:

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 12:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46300 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:49:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 1:52:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># The *Das Reich* division was being held up by British spies and
># local partisans, and some of their leaders were killed.
># Therefore, as reprisal, they killed a lot of civilians. In
># theory, this was legit, but what they did at Ouradour was not.
># About 450 men women and children were locked into the church with
># explosives and then it was torched.

>Didn’t a similar type of massacre take place in Lidice, in
>”retaliation” to the killing of Heydrich?

It is not the point rather that it did not just happen to Jews solely
because they were Jews? And that whole lurid story that was posted was
simply one of many examples? And that, however inadequate, the reason
for doing it was not given?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 46304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:28:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31ca5836.4868839 <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:30:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1552 alt.revisionism:46304

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>>The law was a holdover from the criminal statutes that Canada
>>>inherited from Britain.
>>
>> That is hardly an excuse.
>>
>>The actual law was passed in the fourteenth
>>>century to protect the Magnates from slander. Britain repealed its
>>>false news law in the 1880s. Canada never repealed it because it was
>>>never used until Zuendel was charged under it in a private prosecution
>>>whcih was unfortunately supported by the Attorney General’s office of
>>>Ontario. Your “blatant misrepresentation” is actually a minor quibble
>>>over the meaning of “news.”
>>
>> Excuse me, just how is news defined in Canada?

> Excuse me, but wouldn’t the proper question be: how was news defined
>in Britain in the fourteenth century?

And how might it be defined there?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 46307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Birkenau Map w/ kitchens.jpg (0/2) Re: Sleep with dogs, get fleas
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:44:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 9:47:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>> >moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> >Now Moran, you couldn’t tell the readers which building(s) in aerial
>> >> >photos of Birkenau are kithen-dining facilities for the inmates, could
>> >> >you?
>> >> >
>> >> >No? Thought not. I can though. I’ll even give you a hint, Moran: It’s in
>> >> >on page 5 of _Auschwitz Chronicles_.
>> >>
>> >> Now Mr. VanAlstine, you are posting this stuff out here for the
>> >> general reader I would suppose. You should be making your case in
>> >> point by posting the information right here for their ready
>> >> consideration. Aerial photos of Birkenau are quite easy to refer to.
>> >> The complex is a quite geometrically coherent pattern, with highly
>> >> distinguishable “sections”. All you would have to say is something
>> >> like, the kitchen-messhall facilities are in a particular section,
>> >> north, south, east or west and the buildings look like such and such.
>> >> Can you do it?
>> >
>> >Yes. That’s why, Moran, I referenced you to page 5 of _Auschwitz
>> >Chronicle_. It is a map of Birkenau that lists said facilities. But I
>> >doubted you’d figure that out and I was evidently correct. (A fitting
>> >testiment to your intellectual laziness, btw.) As importantly, it is also
>> >doubtful you knew where these facilities were located yourself before
>> >being “coached” as to their locations by other deniers.
>> >
>> >However, in an effort to remedy your ignorance in regards to the locations
>> >of the kitchen barracks in Auschwitz II-Birkenau, I’ve attached an image
>> >file of the map of Birkenau from page 5 from _Auschwitz Chronicle_. On
>> >this map I’ve colored in the kitchen barracks red for your easy
>> >identification of their locations.
>> >
>> >I hope this helps you out of your geographic depravity in regards to
>> >Auschwitz II-Birkenau. A mind, even if it only has two neurons- such as
>> >yours, is a terrible thing to waste….
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >
>> Thanks for the information. Now that is real co-operation. I’ll
>> over look your ad hominems for comment, opting to just file them away
>> with the myriad of your other examples.

>Ah, preserved for posterity, how flattering!

>> Jeff had already cited there were 9 kitchens in the Birkenau mens
>> camp and I already figured which buildings they would be.

>Uh huh.

>> In the photo in Scientific America, as agreed on, the dark roofs mean they
>> are in use. The photo shows no more than 3 of the 9 kitchens in full use,
>> and 3 in partial use. It appears that only four of them received any
>> traffic of note.

>Nope, I would say it looks like definitely five, maybe six, are in use.

>> According to the caption, which says 80,000 people
>> were still there this would mean 20,000 people per kitchen.

>According to Van Pelt there were 174 barracks, each with 64 bays and 3
>”roosts” per bay, times three prisoners per “roost.” This would imply 576
>prisoners per barracks. That number, however, was quickly increased (4
>prisoners per “roost”) giving a probable total of 768 per barracks.
>(_Anatomy_, p.122-123.)

>One important distinction to consider when regarding these numbers is that
>they were for Soviet POWs (i.e. _Untermensch_) and not Jews. The barracks
>population for Jews was probably higher considering that accounts a five
>or more people per “roost” have been reported for Auschwitz I, whose
>living conditions were better, if marginally so, than at Auschwitz
>II-Birkenau. (_The Kindom of Auschwitz_. pp.36-37.) There barracks
>populations of about 1,000 (5 per “roost”) is not unreasonable.

If this strange term “roost” means bunk it is curious that so many
people suddenly fit into these bunks. It certainly explains how so many
can be stuffed into so little area for gassing. They were shrunk.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:36:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:39:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >> >> > Would someone care to explain to Van Alstine that the skeletons of
>> >> >> >diatoms are not made of silicon?
>> >>
>> >> >Would Mr Giwer like to share with us what he thinks diatoms do use
>> >> >for their hard parts?
>> >>
>> >> A silicon based life form. How interesting.
>>
>> >Not silicon based, Mr Giwer. Only a scientific ignoramus would
>> >assume that because the skeleton is based on silicon the entire
>> >organism must be. Oh sorry, it was you who assumed it. Silly
>> >of me.
>>
>> >For those who want to learn a little science at the expense
>> >of Matt “i is gud in siense” Giwer,
>>
>> >http://www.comet.net/gek/phytoc.htm
>> >http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
>> >http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/bacillariophyta.html
>> >http://commtechlab.msu.edu/CTLProjects/dlc-me/zoo/zwp0608.html
>> >http://www.clas.ufl.edu/CLAS/Departments/Geology/faculty/Ciesielski.html
>> >http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/chromista.html
>>
>> >(To summarize, diatom skeletons are composed of amorphous silicon
>> >dioxide, glass).
>>
>> And you don’t even know why.
>>
>> Amazing how many people fall for the easy ones.

>Yeah, I know. That makes twice I’ve suckered you into making a fool
>of yourself in front of everybody.

>It’s so easy, sometimes I’m ashamed of myself. But not for long.

When you figure out how to avoid it, use the method you discover to look
at your holocaust first.

And that of course is the point of these demonstrations.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:39 PDT 1996
Article: 46310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:36:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 7:39:11 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>> >In comparison, the _incineration_ of the Nazi victims of homicidal gassing
>>>> >at Auschwitz was done with no such restrictions. This can be seen in the
>>>> >_Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration
>>>> >Furnace_:
>>>>
>>>> >”As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
>>>> >to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
>>>> >the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter
>>>> >20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a
>>>> >container and set aside to cool…. In the meantime, further corpses can
>>>> >be introduced one after the other into the chambers.” (_Technique_,
>>>> >p.136.)
>>>>
>>>> >[Note: the operating instruction fo the triple-muffle furnaces are the same.]
>>>>
>>>> If there were no such restrictions why did they use the slower method of
>>>> a standard cremation rather than cheaper and faster incinerators?
>>
>>>Not only is the Giwer-Troll deaf and dumb, but he is blind as well. The
>>>Nazis did indeed use “faster incinerators” rather than “the slower method
>>>of a standard cremation.” This was clearly evidenced in the _Operating
>>>Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace_. Not
>>>to mention by eyewitness testimonies that described the continuous
>>>re-charging of the muffles which mixed the remains of the victims.
>>
>>>Then, of course, the Nazis used incineration pits, and of course, there
>>>was the proposed Krema VI….
>>
>> Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
>>admit you made it up. There were common trash incinerators around

> Around Auschwitz? Large enough to accommodate a corpse? Of course
>you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever admit you made
>it up.

It would be interesting to read your ideas of just how small the
incinerators would be in the equivalent of a city of 80,000.

I would also be interested in reading your ideas as to why, when the
entire purpose was get rid of the bodies of the exterminated that they
chose crematoria rather than simply large incinerators.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 23:51:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 6:54:39 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># You have documents of the construction of morgues and nothing else.

>No. A “gassing cellar” is mentioned. A “gas chamber” is mentioned.
>Detectors for cyanide gas are mentioned. Reports of the gassing
>exist. Gas-tight doors are mentioned. There are the Becker and
>Just letters to Rauff. There’s Wetzel’s letter. There’s more.

We have been over this many times. Degesh sold standardized gas
chambers for delousing. Their ad claim was that it had deloused the
possessions of 25M people. It used cyanide. Yes, certainly they would
have cyanide detectors. We have pre-Degesh buildings that had been
converted to delousing use that continued to be used for delousing
larger things like mattresses.

This is the physical evidence you are trying to promote as something
sinister.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Critiquing The Bell Curve
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:06:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 11:09:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Critiquing The Bell Curve


Critiquing The Bell Curve

by

Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <1/7>


This is not a critique of the book rather a commentary upon
those who critique the The Bell Curve by Herrnstein and Murray.
There are two camps, those who to some degree or other consider
the findings of interest and supportive of the positions
expressed in the book. The other group flat out condemns the
book as racist at the very least.


What separates these two opinions is that the former have
read the book and the latter have not.


We have seen this before. They are the censors and the book
burners. Although the “did not read” group has refrained from
clear calls for censorship if not burning but they share a belief
in common with the book burners. They devoutly believe they can
know what the book says without reading the book.


And how do they know? For example they have “heard”
something of the background of Murray (they never seem to know
anything about Herrnstein though). Why he takes money from an
organization that had some very unmodern ideas some sixty year
ago. Some centuries ago the Roman Catholic Church refused to
look through Galileo’s telescope as he was a known Copernican.


Consider the condemnation is the R word, racist. That of
course is addressed only in chapters 13 and 14. Further the
detractors can not be passed the simple claim it is racist as
they have no idea what the chapters say.


The order of these two chapters is significant. First comes
a general discussion of the racial difference in IQ followed by a
demonstration the cultural differences follow the IQ differences.
Were chapter 14 left to stand on its own it would clearly have
exposited the known cultural and social differences and left them
unexplained.


As it is exposited the book first addresses the difference
that exists and then demonstrates it explains the otherwise
unexplainable social differences between the races. What it
does demonstrate is that equal IQ of all races have essentially
the same social characteristics and thus that IQ is a better
predictor than race.


Those who are blessed with infused knowledge of the
contents of the book never learn is that it removes the race
component from the discussion. It invalidates race from all
social debate. But then, that is what distinguishes the sides in
the discussion, those who condemn the book have not read the
book.


The first barrage against the book appears to have been in
the October 31, 1994 issue of The New Republic. None of the
contributed articles, sixteen of them, gave the slightest
indication the authors had read the book either but they
uniformly repeated the “racist” allegation.


When there is some justification other then identifying the
authors as known Copernicans as evil the reasons are fallacious
in themselves or again demonstrate a failure to have read the
book. For example, one author admits that social attempts to
raise IQ by education have not succeeded but then calls the
efforts on again off again. And in doing so they ignore accepted
studies of those programs showing no benefit.


In the January 85 issue of Scientific American it
contributes its less than sterling reputation in recent years to
this frenzy of ignorance. Associate Editor, Timothy Beardsley
provides a series of quotations about the book from people who
also give no indication of having read the book or at most
chapter 13. But those who have heard of this article, not having
read it either, proudly proclaim an article by a writer who has
advanced to editor is evidence against the book.


What all share in common is a knowledge that the question
has been answered long ago, that everything has to be environment
and nothing can be heredity save for race. They know IQ can not
be heritable. But do they really? No!


What they do know is that it is a truth that can not be
spoken. They know that no study demonstrating it can be admitted
to be true. They know the only way to stop what they know is
true from being stated publically is to attack it.


Is this too harsh? Consider the attitude of those who
condemned Galileo’s telescope and The Tropic of Cancer. Show me
where it is different. They will not look. They will not read.
The WILL condemn.


They will call names. They will call heretic, pornographer,
racist. Any and all may be true but where is the difference
today? I see none. Is anyone willing to tell me why the brain
dead fundamentalists who are attacking The Bell Curve are
different from any other brain dead fundamentalist?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 46330 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:12:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 8:15:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >What are the hard parts of diatoms composed of, Mr Giwer? Please answer the
>> >question. By the by, I don’t remember commenting on fumigation. Might
>> >you provide a reference using DejaNews or another source to my article on
>> >the subject so I might refresh my memory?
>>
>> Diatoms themselves, the substance is calcium based.

>Wrong.

>>
>> The clay is composed of the fossilized remains, primarily silicon based.

>Wrong.

>>
>> >No, I thought not.
>>
>> Why did you think not?
>>
>> >> >By the way, Mr Giwer, what are diatom shells made of?
>> >>
>> >> Diatoms do not have shells. The term you want is skeleton.
>>
>> >What are diatom skeletons made of, Mr Giwer?
>>
>> As above.

>Still wrong. In the universe most of us inhabit diatoms form their
>hard parts from amorphous silicon dioxide (aka amorphous quartz aka
>glass). The rock, diatomite, is composed of their remains but they
>are not altered from SiO2 to CaCO3 or any other carbonate compound.

>If Mr Giwer had bothered to click on any one of the references I gave
>he would have noted that the reason I picked each was because of the
>statements contained therein as to what diatoms used, ie, silicon
>dioxide.

>I know that I personally would love to have Mr Giwer explain how
>his views are different from those of scientists who study diatoms.
>Is there, perhaps, an international conspiracy of glass makers out
>to claim diatoms as one of their own?

>Or will Mr Giwer admit that he was mistaken?

Not at all.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 46340 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the parallels
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:09:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:11:41 PM PDT 1996

[email protected] (ibokor) wrote:

>RuthSommer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: I think that for Jews to be so fixated on this Holocaust thing, and to
>: actually make it a part of their religion, is pathological. What does it
>: do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to constantly harp
>: on dead Jews and cooked Jews and gassed Jews and steamed Jews and cremated
>: Jews?
>:

>I think that for Americans to be so fixated on this War of Independence thing
>and to actually make it part of their world-view, is pathological. What
>does it do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to
>constantly harp on dead colonials and redcoats?

Americans do not. Other than that, nice carp. You really could have
done better if you knew what you were talking about.

>I think that for Frenchmen to be so fixated on this Revolution thing
>and to actually make it part of their world-view, is pathological. What
>does it do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to
>constantly harp on dead aristocrats, and citizens and the rise and
>fall of that Corsican.

Neither do they so far as I am aware.

>I think that for Christians to be so fixated on this Christ and lions thing
>and to actually make it part of their religion is pathological. What
>does it do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to
>constantly harp on the deaths of people the Romans fed to the lions
>and the death of one who didn’t die anyway.

The last group of Christians fixated on their martyrs were Catholic nuns
who were told to knock it off some 30 years ago.

When you know something about what you are talking about, get back to
us.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:43 PDT 1996
Article: 46341 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 02:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:03:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># The pipes are still callin’ you. You refuse to consider
># the total lack of physical evidence of gassing.
>
>We have to decide what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.

What is it about physical evidence you do not understand?

>I suggest you show us what it means by supplying such evidence
>for WW2.

Note clearly you are asking only for evidence. I have already said I
would deal with Dresden first.

But, we are allowed to use “revisionist” type
>arguments to question your evidence. We will very easily
>”prove” that WW2 didn’t take place.

Now do not try to change the issue. We are not talking proof, we are
talking evidence.

Heck, we already supplied
>a “revisionist proof” that Dresden was never bombed, because
>of these absurd testimonies about people melting into puddles
>of flesh, or turning into an “undulating layer of fine gray
>ashes”, although no fire even touched them!

Here is where you confuse what happened to Jews as a whole with with
gassing. But I do agree both your Dresden examples are in the same
ridiculous category with your gassing stories.

>With the collapse of the Dresden hoax, the WW2 myth will also
>crumble (If we use “revisionist logic”, that is).

All that has crumbled are testimonies. We have lots of physical
evidence of Dresden. We have no need of any testimony save for human
interest.

Your gassing on the other hand is all human interest without physical
evidence. Thus the gassing lacks the critical requirement for
credibility.

># You refuse to consider that no testimony corroborates the present
># story of the physical layout of the places gassing is supposed to
># have taken place.
>
>Your claim is utterly false.

I will be interested in reading the ones you have that go beyond
mentioning a building with a door.

># ONE and ONLY ONE mention of going down the stairs at Birkenau would do
># more for the credibility of gassing than you can possbily imagine.
>
>And who says no such testimony exists?

Post it.

># ONE mention carrying bodies a few steps to the Kremas would do the
>same.

>An elevator was used to bring the corpses to the floor in which
>the cremation furnaces was.

Post one mention of the elevator if you wish. That should stand
out even more than steps. I keep seeing “carrying the bodies out” being
posted. I have yet to see a mention of putting bodies on an elevator.

How about one mention of a “flat roofed” building.

Take advantage of this. I am giving you the opportunity to make you
case by showing you how to produce corroborating testimony to what you
folks claim is physical evidence.

You simply name the physical evidence and then provide consistant
testimony that describes that physical evidence in at least somewhat
unique manner.

Think you can find something?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:44 PDT 1996
Article: 46348 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!news.lightlink.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censors on the “Outs” in Salmon Arm, B.C.
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 02:02:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:04:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>#What is the problem with this Holocaust/Jewish crowd? Don’t they
>>#understand
>>#that free speech is a concept that is for EVERYONE? It’s not
>something
>>#that
>>#can be squealched for this group or that person, that Jews don’t like.
>>[more of the same snipped]
>>
>>Since when has the concept of free speech become just another slogan
>>to promote blatant propaganda?

>It is only ‘blatant propaganda’ or ‘unacceptable’ speech when it
>disagrees with the tribesmen of ZION.

Since when does free speech care?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:03:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 6:06:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56253 alt.revisionism:46354

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: They [the unindicted co-conspirators]even edit
>: messages to post them to abuse.misc to make it look like I am the one
>: abusing the newsgroup. The whole thing is a setup against me. One more
>: attempt in a long list.

>Excuse me, but as far as I have seen, there is only one regular poster
>to alt.revisionism that “responds” to posts with articles that contain
>no new text and a .sig file of 100 or more lines. Whoever he is, I
>think we can make a case that he is abusing the group. Or maybe he’s
>simply indulging in self-abuse. Whatever.

When the message I respond to me contains an attack against me thus
deviating the from the serious debate that the holohuggers claim they
want then I will continue to respond in that manner.

If you folks do what you say you want to do and stop the attack posts
and there will be no such posts. But you know that.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46355 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:09:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:12:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># The issue is your idiot gassing stories. Whether Hitler
># is sainted in heaven or rotting in hell, your idiot gassing
># stories are still idiotic.

>You have not proved that anything about them is “idiotic”. You
>have pointed out, and there’s nothing new about this, that some
>reports about the gassings – mainly some of those made during
>the war, deriving from incomplete sources – were wrong on a
>few details. But as we know well from testimonies about, for
>instance, the bombing of Dresden, there are always some
>erroneous testimonies about real events.

EVERY fucking detail to be precise. And that those accepted by the IMT
were equally wrong in every detail. And that there were many other
really true testimony accepted at the IMT that was equally ridiculous.
And all the rest you wild and crazy applied math type.

>You have a few problems:

>1) A total and complete lack of knowledge about the Holocaust,
> the location and structure of the various gas chambers, and
> the different methods used for gassing.

There are exactly two methods described which conflict in every major
detail. There are also IMT accepted testimony of steaming,
electrocution and vacuum chambers. Therefore, you ain’t got jack.

>2) A total and complete lack of capability to understand anything
> technical. See your claims about diesel exhaust and evaporation
> of HCN from Zyklon, for instance; they are totally false, and
> you know that.

How would an applied math type know? You are incapble of judging.
Despite the title you have no ability to judge science, period.

>3) A total and complete lack of capacity for rational thought. See
> the old .sig below.

See the sig of the hour

>Because of 1-3 above, and a few other reasons, you simply do not
>have the capability to arrive at any logical conclusion about
>the Holocaust (or any other event).

Danny boy, you are a touchingly naive. You have spent your entire life
in an institutional environment that is intended to be shielded from the
real world. Your problems are far from unique and they are painfully
obvious to us non-academic types.

The most obvious of which is your presumption of personal superiority
because of your university association. I have hired and fired people
better than you in my time.

The next time you get to your library look up a book on Nonlinear
Acoustics by a certain Brown U. prof. Department head at the time. If
you can’t find it, I will dig up my copy and give you a better
reference. It is published by the Gov Printing Office under the
auspices of NAVSHIPS. That was me.

Get over it. You are small time and have a lot to learn.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 18:00:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46357 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:59:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 4:01:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>>>
>>>>Question:
>>>> The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>>>>is:
>>>>
>>>> A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>>>
>>> Definitely this.
>>>
>>>> B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>>>>money.
>>
>>
>>Incredible:
>>>
>>> I suspect that there is *some* desire to instill guilt on the part of
>>> *some* Jews. To argue it is to justify Zionist policies is backwards.
>>> It presumes that maybe the Holocaust did not happen. The world (save a
>>> few lunatics) know that it did.
>>
>> “A few”? “Lunatics”? Not neo-Nazis?

> Some of the lunatics are neo-nazis. Some, like you and Giwer, aren’t.

>>> I think the idea of financial extortion
>>> from the Holocaust is rather stupid. Most all of these people would
>>> much rather have their relatives back. No amount of money can replace
>>> that. The requests for financial reparations from Germany have been
>>> fairly small –
>>
>> “Requests”? “fairly small”? 50,000,000,000 dollars is small? The
>>people would rather have their relatives back instead of the money?

> Well, you are simply adding up all of the US aid to Israel over the
> years and calling it Jewish extortion. Since that is ridiculous (just
> take a look at how many Jewish Congressmen there are and at how many
> Jewish voters there are to see how ridiculous this is), I was using the
> more *based in reality* consideration of requests for war reparations
> from Germany.

One more time I point out the electoral college system and the value of
NY state to any presidential election. You folks need to learn this
some day. Ignoring Jews in New York is like ignoring defense contracts
in California or Cuba in Florida. It is something that is not done.

You need to learn something about the realities of US politics.

You also have to learn something about the US news media. It is
primarily in New York City. It is well known in Israel although
antisemitic to say in the US that that media is in the back pocket of
Israel.

The only three of the four major networks running serious national and
world news coverage are there. The most prestigious newspaper is there.
The major publishing houses are there. Even with only strict
proportional representation one third of their staffs are Jewish.

If one presumes the data presented in The Bell Curve is correct, the
staff should approach one half Jewish and more heavily represented in
upper management.

Thus one can be assured that any statement about Israel that appears in
the least detrimental will be reported in the worst possible light on
national TV at 6:30 EST all over the country.

This is a political reality in the United States. It goes so far that
when all of the military examination of what happened on the ground when
Israel shelled the refugee camp indicated it was deliberate the only
thing that stopped it from be adopted as the finding was a US veto.
Needless to say, coverage of the evidence was almost non-existant in the
US in the TV and news media.

It is not clear why anyone would be interested in denying political
reality in the US. It is not as though it is a secret.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:28 PDT 1996
Article: 46363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:50:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 9:53:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord McFee)
>wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (DvdThomas)
>>said:

>>>
>>>Ah, statistics!

>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.

>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike “revisionist” quotes,
>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>are intended to be. Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>discussion.

Perhaps fat broad has not gotten the word to stop implying that this is
a holocaust conferce and should cease implying that only holohuggers
consititute the conference.

But to refresh your fat little head, mindless repetition of any thing is
unappreciated by the people who are here to talk revisionism as is the
purpose of this conference.

>>>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
>>>over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>>>default. (Graber made me do it!!)

>>The point being?

>The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
>”revisionists” choose to engage in “propagandizing of a base sort” –
>as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
>support their “arguments”.

And mindless repetition, i.e. telling the big lie loud enough and often
enough, is not propaganda to the holohuggers even though it is off
topic.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:29 PDT 1996
Article: 46365 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:57:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 9:59:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>writes:

>>Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who,
>>by
>>all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was
>>a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet
>>territories.
>>These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus
>>(Byelorussia),
>>Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews
>>who
>>had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail
>>and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the
>>senders
>>were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children)
>>were
>>being fed. (note 47)

>The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less baroque
>than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in WW2.

So one of the stories goes, there were SS men detailed to fake all the
mail.

I actually heard that one on a PBS production.

Obviously they had complete dossiers on these people from which to
create personal details and samples of handwriting for their expert
forgeries.

I find it incredible what is repeated with a straight face.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:30 PDT 1996
Article: 46377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 02:24:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:26:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>> >Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>> >[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]
>>
>> >: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>> >: that is your problem.
>>
>> >It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>> >*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>> >arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?
>>
>> You folks have done it to so many people and for so long that you have
>> got plausible deniability down to a fine art.

>Names and dates, Mr. Giwer! Please identify the readers of this
>newsgroup, by name, who you suspect of harassing your family. Please
>identify the dates and incidents. Let’s see some specifics!

To repeat …

>> >: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>> >: that is your problem.

>———————-
>Marty Kelley ([email protected])

>”It would be such a relief to think the people in charge knew
>what they were doing, even if they were bent on mischief….[but]
>stupidity is far more important than conspiracy in determining
>man’s fate. Simple dumbness, along with luck, chance, and
>accident, runs well ahead of conspiracy in the causation category.”
> –Molly Ivins

Ah, yes, the wit and wisdom of Molly “I am outraged” Ivins. Or would
the Nizkorites consider you to be spamming the same message over and
over?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And the Color is: Mauve! … _Mauve?_
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 01:30:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 8:32:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>
>>From the memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli, *Auschwitz*, p. 51
>>
>> He opened one of the cans and poured the contents — a mauve
>>granulated substance — into the opening. The granulated substance fell
>>in a lump to the bottom. The gas it produced escaped through the
>>perforations, and within a few seconds filled the room in which the
>>deportees were stacked. Within five minutes, everyone was dead. >quote>
>>
>>More later. The color of Zyklon B was mauve. Period.

>Mauve according to my dictionary is a grayish violet or even a reddish
>purple. I can’t for the life of me recall someone looking at something
>and saying, oh, that’s exactly mauve in color. Period.

>Some people will describe the color as blue because it appears to
>*them* to be blue. This is also one man’s testimony that should go
>along with other people’s testimonies and perceptions of what they
>call. Frankly, this is ridiculous. There was Zyclon B whatever it’s
>color and there was something used called Prussian Blue. Oddly it may
>have been Prussian [Mauve ] but who cares.

Way ahead of me, you used “who cares.”

The point has always been that when a color it thrown in, it is the
wrong color indicating the person telling the story knew of the term
Prussian Blue therefore incorrectly assumed the color was blue.

What is interesting about this story is that he was at least creative.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a surprise
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:24:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:27:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>> Some day they may post what they think debate consists of.

> Been there, done that. Pay attention to everything that is posted.
>If you are missing posts, get a new service provider. That is the Giwer
>Rule.

> Did you ever find those computations of the number of calories needed
>to deal with the water in order to ignite a corpse? Remember, show all
>assumptions and formulas used.

Sure did and posted them many times. They were not your idiot Pure
Jewish fat from Hebrew Union. You should try another provider.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46409 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.fiberlink.ca!n3tor.istar!tor.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:26:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]fw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 6:29:17 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>>McFee) writes:

>>>All alone in the world. Despised by all. No one to bully around.
>>Bitter
>>>at the past and terrified of the future. So jealous of “normal” people.
>>>Knowing that the only ones who accept him are the anonymous Nazi denier
>>>scum. Hating the real world, where people have at least a shred of
>>humanity
>>>and loathing the fact that he has none.
>>>
>>>Pathetic beyond words.

>>Get a grip, Gord.

>Physician heal thyself, Mr. Ehrlich.

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

Another example of the kind of debate the holohuggers want to conduct.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudenko: Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:30:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 7:32:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote (to Yale Edeiken):

>> This is not only good analysis, but the kind of response I was looking
>> for. Further comments on Rudenko’s skill are forthcoming.

>It’s good to see that Ehrlich606 still thinks that there is worthwhile
>discussion taking place on alt.revisionism, despite Giwer’s best efforts.

You folks did the usual “post the messages” game when I pointed out it
was the holohuggers who did not wish to engage in serious debate.
Rather than that I have been pointing out the messages where it is still
demonstrated they do not want serious debate but rather engage in
insult.

You can tell them by either a specific notice of same being appended or
a true fact about step cleaning or steaming being appended.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46413 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:32:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 196
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 9:35:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56283 alt.revisionism:46413

[email protected]er.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) writes:

>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>> >You’ve missed the point. Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
>> >declared their intentions to be:
>>
>> > making this a “spam conference” [1];
>>
>> This was a comment of mine in response to specific threat of theirs to
>> duplicate everything I post in the conference. Thus they were the ones
>> making the threat. I merely put a name to the consequences of such a
>> threat.

>That is an outright lie. Back it up (by documenting this alleged
>”specific threat”) or retract.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03

>> > responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];
>>
>> I do not do that, as you know.

>That is a lie. A quick visit to:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

>and

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-one-liner

>should make that clear.

>> > posting under fake names to dodge peoples’ killfiles [3];
>>
>> This appears to be an issue with the outgoing news servers at Netcom
>[…]

>Your response was deleted, as you obviously misunderstood the
>allegation, presumably because you did not bother to access the URL
>which documented it:

> “I can and will come in under another name that is not killfiled.
> You folks have proven yourselves so freaking dumb that I can do
> anything I want to show what idiots you are.”

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02

>> > or, my favorite:
>>
>> > “making it” (this newsgroup) “useless” to anyone who would
>> > challenge revisionist dogma [4].
>>
>> That is not what is said.
>>
>> What I did say is that it could be made useless to the mind control
>> freaks who have been intent upon making a conference on revisionism
>> useless to people who want to talk about revisionism.

>The “mind control freaks” are those of us who want to discuss
>revisionism but who do not agree with Mr. Giwer. Mr. Giwer refers
>to these people as “hijackers.”

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless

>If he could produce a single piece of evidence that we “hijackers” are
>”mind control freaks,” or that we “hijackers” want to make the
>conference “useless” to our ideological opponents, he might have a case.
> He can’t, so he doesn’t. In fact, there was a short thread a month or
>so ago in which several of us “hijackers” expressed thanks for Usenet
>and other means of open expression, so that Nazis could make fools of
>themselves in public. If challenged, I’ll dig up an archive of or a URL
>for this thread.

>On the other hand, we have Matt Giwer admitting that “making it useless”
>is exactly what he intends to do to _his_ ideological opponents.

>> You folks have not only been doing that for years with personal insults
>> and harrassment including harrassment of people’s families

>That is a lie. Back it up or retract.

>> but you have
>> bragged about doing so. You have bragged about driving people out of
>> the conference.

>Since you claim we have bragged about doing these things, it should be
>exceptionally easy for you to back up your statement. However, you
>cannot, as it is a lie.

>> You folks have publically posted about email planning as to the best way
>> to get people to leave the conference.

>That is a lie. Back it up or retract.

>Again, here are the URLs backing up _my_ claims about _Giwer_.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>> You fail to note in public that the files on Nizkor are heavily censored
>> and altered to conceal the original intent and meaning of the posts.

>”Censored”? That is a lie, since every post Mr. Giwer have made to
>alt.revisionism over the last six months (or more) is archived. See
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt .

>”Altered”? That is a lie. Back it up or retract.

>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>> prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>That is a lie. Back it up or retract.

>> You fail to note the years of spamming the exact same messages on the
>> conference by members of Nizkor.

>That is a lie (unless one uses a ridiculously loose meaning for the
>term “spamming”). Back it up or retract.

>> You fail to note that the posts to this conference are in fact one more
>> attempt to prevent discussion of revisionism as an attempt to silence
>> me.

>That is a lie. Back it up or retract.

>> You fail to note that these were in response to what was posted on the
>> conference. Which of course is your objective, to stop responses to
>> what you folks post. You brag so much about stopping others from doing
>> so.

>That is a lie. Nobody wants to stop responses. I would like to see
>some useful discussion going on. As I have said publicly many times, I
>do not want to see an end to discussion or to revisionists posting their
>viewpoints, because they are their own worst enemies. We very much want
>them to discuss matters with us, and we want to discuss matters with
>them.

>What I and we would like to see end, is the flooding of the newsgroup to
>the point where it is so busy as to be useless for such discussion.

>> Jamie, me boy, you folks are simply getting a dose of what you have been
>> doing to others and bragging about for years.

>”Bragging” again. So this too should be exceptionally easy to document.
>Yet you don’t. It’s a lie. Back it up or retract.

>> You folks have bluntly referred to it as “our conference”

>That is a lie (assuming that by “you folks” you mean only
>anti-revisionists — the group should “belong” to anyone who wishes
>to discuss revisionism, which by your own admission does not include
>you, Mr. Giwer). Back it up or retract.

>> You are a liar, Jamie. I can not change that. You can change that.

>I have presented the URLs which back up what I say. I invite the reader
>to browse them:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>Mr. Giwer fails to present anything to back up his outrageous assertions.

>Make up your own mind.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

Nice tantrum but nothing I have posting is outrageous. What is
outrageous is that they are all true of Nizkor.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 20:58:35 PDT 1996
Article: 46418 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:56:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:59:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>McFee) writes:

>>
>>Really Mr. Ehrlich? Is the following from Mr. Giwer what this board is
>>supposed to have on it?
>>
>>

>Gord, the only difference between Hilary and Matt insofar as their
>demeanor on this board is concerned, is that Hilary has mastered the
>gentle art of insult, and Matt is much more earthy.

Why be clever when you can be right?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 27 22:51:03 PDT 1996
Article: 46422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘You see, they are bringing children now’
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:10:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 10:13:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS private Boeck:
>[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein,
>Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
>chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
>p. 181].
>——————————————————————
>Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?

>A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
> transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
> jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
> women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
> trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
> the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
> place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
> (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
> people were standing on clothes which were building up on
> the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
> were there. Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There
> was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing
> children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in
> and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
> SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
> ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
> was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
> were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next
> batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn’t
> look at my wife for four weeks.

>

A ten minute time to death here. And the completely unexplainable “heat
given off” to throw into the mix.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 07:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 46434 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: She’s Back
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:41:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 9:44:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>Well, after a two-week hiatus from my computer in the wilds of Cape Cod,
>I’m back online. (Actually, I would have been back while on vacation if I
>hadn’t dropped the laptop….)
>
>Nice to see and sad to see that nothing has changed.
>
>While on vacation, I began Goldhagen’s book. Although there will certainly
>be parts I disagree with, I think his explanation and history of German
>anti-semitism is the best I’ve ever read.
>
>I’ll post more when I’ve finished the book.
>
>Anyway, I’m back.
>
>Oh, and before I forget,
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Sara

Things have changed a bit, to wit …

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 07:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 46463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!coopnews.coop.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!mhv.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!gail.ripco.com!news.hyperspace.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: John F. Kennedy, neo-Nazi ?
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:49:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 9:52:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>> Since there is enough and plenty of record to show that Jews
>>would have the world think Holocaust deniers are “neo-Nazis” it would
>>follow that if John F.Kennedy had written his objections about the
>>propriety of the Nuremberg trials this could put him in ranks of the
>>neo-Nazi.

>IF PIGS COULD FLY ….

You appear to have missed something.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy

John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 07:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 46464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What “DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY?”
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:35:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:37:52 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: And upon going there you find Stein, a man of not credentials in the
>: subject whatsoever. Beyond that, he makes no technical points.

>And what, precisely, are your credentials in history, law, physiology,
>chemistry, or the ability to walk and chew gum simultaneously?

Rather elementary material that I would have thought any properly
acculturated person would know. Why don’t you?

It is sort of like addition and knowing roughly the dates of WW II and
the like.

It appears you folks believe that it is possible to be acculturated in
today’s world without a broad spectrum of science and engineering
knowledge. That is a rather bizarre belief in light of today’s world.
Your studied ignorance is even harder to comprehend.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 07:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 46466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How to make eyewitness testimony credible
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 04:00:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:03:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I have been trying to explain this to Keren but the rest of you
holohuggers can benefit from it also.

Lets suggest for the moment it really is your intention to establish the
credibility of your eyewitnesses.

What you do is take a look at the layout of one of your LK. Then you
find testimony that refers to its physical features or location.

As examples of things that will lend credence to your eyewitnesses are
statements such as

“they were marched down the stairs and into the room”

“They were taken out behind the Kremas to the room for gassing.”

“We loaded the bodies onto the elevator” or “we took them off of the
elevator to the ovens.”

“The entered the flat roofed building …”

Get the idea? You need to find testimony that matches physical evidence
in order to give it some credance.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 07:19:04 PDT 1996
Article: 46467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!udel!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:37:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 206
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:40:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:397812 alt.politics.libertarian:179018 alt.politics.democrats.d:91125 alt.politics.usa.republican:223544 alt.politics.usa.congress:46826 alt.politics.reform:78040 alt.activism:57269 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328009 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:26123 alt.revisionism:46467

[email protected] (Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:12:27 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>>He who raises a hand against a fellow man,even if he injure him not,
>>>is called wicked.– The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud

>>The wit and wisdom of goat herding tribesmen.

>Yeah, them friggin Jews hey Giwer…

Or, as David Dahlman posted under the handle Muy Groso …

===========================================================================
BBS: St Pete Programmers Exchange
Date: 06-23-92 (12:19) Number: 14756
From: MUY GROSO Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: WET POWDER Conf: (327) f-CONTROV
—————————————————————————
Capt. Groso was so short, he was dating quarks. His head below his
hat was peeling, he was sorry now he had had his head shaved so close
to returning to the real world, but he had made his point to the
I Corps General. Under fire is NOT the place for the brass to complain
about hair length. He had enough problems coping with the BS in the
back, yet up front. So under orders to report to the General at
Officer Club #4 with haircut AND NO MUSTACHE by 21:00 hours, he shaved
and shined his head, and painted the words “REAL SHORT, SIR” on top.
He made the point to those present, but certainly looked foolish to the
girls back home that coming summer.

He walked up the wide gravel driveway to the motor pool. God, he hated
this duty, Motor Stables, 14:00 to 16:00 everyday, busy work.
He tossed an areosel white paint can to Corporal Tubbs.
“Gonna re-stencil the names and numbers on ALL the vehicles, have at it
Corporal.” The heavy, dirty corporal caught the can, “Sir, we just did
that yesterday!”
“Well Tubbs, day-glow orange just ain’t got that camouflage look we’re
after. Come on, get going, you rather rotate the wheels on all 16 duce
and a halfs again.” He wandered under the hot metal roof, removed his
hat, and played with his head.

At 16:30 he went to Capt. Corats office(S-2) to get the coordinates for
the evening salute. Corats was regular army and a creep. He took the
information Corats handed him and walked to the parade ground where the
Fire Direction Center was located to find where the 8″ shell would drop.
“Ben, I think he’s got this 180 degrees out, look at this!”
Lt. Billings saw it immediately, shoved the info into the FADAC and they
both shook there heads in disbelief. “Yep, Muy, right in the center of
town! Christ, we’d have to re-lay the gun. Well let’s call him.”
“Ben, let me handle this, I owe this guy one, no, I owe him about
twenty, I’m gonna leave him a going away present.” Muy’s wheels were
spinning, he looked at the map, and found a target area about 4 klicks
directly below the town on the same azimuth. Groso was the Saftey
Officer, Ben had to do what he said, and anyway Corats had screwed even
gentle Ben on occasion.

Muy went out to the guns, started up #4, turned it around, and ‘re-laid’
it. God, it looked funny seeing that fat ole barrel pointing opposite
the others, so ‘unparallel’, so ‘unmilitary’. Sgt. Smith came by to
help
in loading and firing.
“What yall got here Capin’? You crazy? Dat ain’t the one we firing?”
he asked pointing at the out of wack cannon.
“Yep! That’s the way Capt. Corats wants it, that’s the way he’s gonna
get it.” The sergeant went into FDC and checked the map. “You gonna
kill
about fifty people to screw ole Honky-Harvey?”
“Thought we’d only put in charge #4 and #5, it will drop about 3 klicks
short, on target range #21, same elevation and azimeth figure Corats
gave
us. Hell, Smith, I’m gonna do it.”
“Okay, it’s your neck, but why don’t ya call Corats and make him verify
the info so its recorded on FADAC?” Groso returned to FDC and called
Corats, he knew he would ‘stick to his guns’, he NEVER admitted to a
mistake. No sweat, in fact he said he wanted to fire 6 rounds as it was
his son’s sixth birthday. They all shook their heads in disbelief,
as the most hated man in the Battalion dug himself deeper.
Groso pulled the powder, Sgt.Smith helped with the shells, but he loaded
the charges and pulled the lanyard himself, keeping Smith out of it.
He fired all 6, and went to the Officers’ Club to wait.
It didn’t take long. Corats stormed in. “Groso, I want you to issue a
max Article 15 to Corporal Tubbs, RIGHT NOW!” This caught Groso off
guard, what was going on? “Come with me.” Corats ordered.
Groso chugged down another glass of Jack, and followed the little twit
to the Motor Pool. “Defacing government property and foul language. He’s
your man and your gonna take care of this, to the FULLEST extent of
Military Justice! LOOK!”
Groso looked down at the gravel Corats indicated, there in letters about
two feet high, in white spray paint, read F T A.
“Hmmm..” Groso contemplated the derogatory acronym, and dragged a foot
back and forth over it, erasing it.
“Kicking it away don’t make it so it didn’t happen, BUST him!”
“For what? Defacing Gook Gravel? Gimmie a break..” he turned away,
walking toward the Club.
[cont]
___
X SLMR 2.1 X

— Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: HST/DS/v32bis 713-589-0308 (1:106/500)
===========================================================================
BBS: St Pete Programmers Exchange
Date: 06-23-92 (12:22) Number: 14757
From: MUY GROSO Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: WET POWDER Conf: (327) f-CONTROV
—————————————————————————
Corats grabbed his shirt.”You’re gonna do this, I’ll see to it.”
He shook off the rabid little man, “Listen you jerk, I been across that
river there for most a year with Tubbs, while you sat on your fat little
fanny here causing trouble, you wanna screw people, screw em yourself.”
Groso said thinking how pleasant it would be to bite off Corats’ nose.

“You’re a lousy Officer Groso, the only one that goes to the NCO Club,
to the Enlisted Man’s Club, Christ, you even go to the Niggar Club with
Sgt. Smith! You get drunk every night, stagger in and out of the Donnut
Dollies’ hootch, GO INTO TOWN making friends with Gooks, and wear those
fruitcake sunglasses, my God man, LOOK AT YOUR HEAD! And you think you
know what’s going on! You don’t know jackshit! And if you think yer
gonna put anything on me, think again!” He stormed away toward Tubbs
who Groso knew would handle himself alright.

“Corats!” Groso yelled, unsnaping the holster cover on his big .45,
“DRAW! YOU WORM!”
Corats turned, and raised his hands away from his gun.
“Bye!” Groso called, wondering if this idiot really thought he was going
to shoot him, “and stop by FDC later, I think the Colonel has another
‘being here’ metal to pin on ya.”

When he re-entered the Club he noticed Billings under duress from the
Colonel who vigorously waved him over.
“Six shells landed in Target area #21, I Corps is mad as hell,
you’re the Safety Officer, didn’t you get Corats’ Coordinates?”
“Oh, I got em all right.”
“Dammit, well yer both in it deep, what’s the matter with you people?
You come out of combat and you think yer above it all. Well yer not!
You have a very simple job Captian, at 17:00 everyday you fire a shell
so it falls within 500 meters of the coordinates designated by my S-2.
What is so damn hard about that? We’re gonna straighten this out even
if it means no Stateside. You understand me?”
“Yes Sir.” They followed the angry Colonel out to his jeep and made for
the gun battery.

“LOOK AT THAT!! That damn ‘shooter’ is BACKWARDS! In 25 years in the
artillery I have never seen such a ridiculous sight!” He stormed into
Fire Direction and sat at the map table, though quiet, he was seething
while he inhaled the data.
“Okay, get outta here, both of ya! I have a feeling that if I asked
about the ‘charges’ I would hear about wet powder.”
“Musta been wet powder Sir.”
“Groso, yer leaving tomorrow, right? Have my driver take you to the
airport! Right now! Out of my life! What’s Corats doing? Where is he?”
“Just the usual Sir, Court Marshaling someone in the motor pool again.”

SOMEWHERE IN ASIA 1969

Corats? He is probably some big shot in the NSC, if not personally
killing
poor women and children in faraway places, at least hoping to.
Muy Groso? He got to go home a day early!


X SLMR 2.1 X

— Maximus/2 2.01wb
* Origin: HST/DS/v32bis 713-589-0308 (1:106/500)

>—————————————————————
>After most of ten years watching him on the nets I can safely say,
>with the backup of perhaps thousands of others, that MATT GIWER is a
>bigot, an anti-Semite, a Holocaust Revisionist, a homophobe, a
>Right-wing gungoon, a pathological liar, a message forger, a squealer
>and a rabid libeler. *And those are his good traits.* His darker side
>concerns publicly posting death threats and murder-for-hire messages.
>Get a quick look at this slimball at:
>http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm
>——————————————————————–
>—
> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
> it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> —————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 10:40:09 PDT 1996
Article: 46478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The professor and his eyewitnesses
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:22:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 6:25:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Daniel Keren ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (tom moran) writes:

>: # Its always Reitlinger, out of the scores of other accounts that
>: # mimic the 4 million.

>: I recall Hilberg also gives the correct figure in his earlier works.

>In the 1961 edition of _The Destruction of the European Jews_, he gives
>a total of 3 million for all extermination/concentration camps.

3M plus 1M for the EG and we have a 4M total. That total is moving
around again.

Would someone club it so we can get a good look at it?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 10:40:10 PDT 1996
Article: 46489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New whopper of the week: Negroes invented Fire!
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:28:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 1:30:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23927 alt.politics.white-power:34329 alt.revisionism:46489

Alexander Baron wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] “Chuck Ferree” writes:

>> Racist too, boy you’re some fellow human being.
>>
>> Same for you Baron, if you can prove your claim, do so, if not. I win.
>> How’s the Queen?

>Racist? I get it, if we don’t believe every race has the same innate capacity
>for civilisation we’re gonna send them to the gas chambers? Right. My remark
>is history, Chuck. If you have evidence of a written Negro language, please
>adduce it.

>–
>Alexander Baron

And after he produces that … Sorry but the universe will have
expereineced heat death by then.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 10:40:11 PDT 1996
Article: 46495 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: why would anyone care?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:06:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 2:08:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

May I suggest that Hitler was a victim of early onset Altheimer’s and
was a secret drooler since 1932. The only talent he had was making
speeches.

Therefore he was completely innocent of anything he is charged with.

Now tell me, what would be the difference were this true?

Not a damn thing.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 10:40:12 PDT 1996
Article: 46497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!news.lightlink.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos deny the story
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:30:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:32:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Nele Abels wrote:

>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:03:30 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>> SA has not been a reliable source of information for years now. But t
>>>is now firmly in the Discover and Omni category of pop science.

>>You say these things with such a religious fervor. Could it be that
>>your pride has got the better of you, and you have actually begun to
>>believe what you post? Wouldn’t that be a fitting irony.

>Mr. Giwer has explicitely stated to me that he does not have to prove
>whatever he says in any way, because it is his “opinion” and therefore
>above any doubt.

>That’s what I call a firm believer.

That is the kind of misrepresentation I have come to expect from
holohuggers. It is what they call debate.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:18 PDT 1996
Article: 46503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:18:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 339
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:20:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (SF924) wrote:

>I am a lawyer and I have a question for revisionists that I have not seen
>answered satisfactorily. This is my first post to this group so please
>excuse me if my comments seem elementary or I misspell names.

> At the Nuremburg Trial, 23 (I believe that was the number) high ranking
>Nazi officials were tried including Frank (the head of the general
>government in Poland), Kaltenbrunner, Seyss Inquart ansd Salcal (sic)
>Frank was also alleged to have participated in the Wannsee Conference of
>January, 1942 and the “alleged” exterminations were to take place on
>territory within his jurisdiction. .

>All of these men were represented by counsel. How come none of them, not
>even Goring the most defiant of the defendants, alleged that the gas
>chambers were a hoax or concoction of the allies in conjunction with
>Jewish interests. None of these men raised this as a defense. As I
>understand it, the defense of all the defendants was either lack of
>knowledge or fear of disobeying orders.

>As a lawyer, if my client was Frank, and I knew the gas chambers were a
>hoax, that fact of that hoax would have been my lead defense. I would
>have aggressively attacked all of the physical evidence as a forgery. I
>would have argued that Zyklon B couldn’t kill anyone. I would have
>challenged the photographs. I would have grilled Rudolph Hoess, the
>Auscwitz commandant on cross examination. In short, I would have argued
>that “It is a hoax!! There were no gas chambers!!” After all, my client
>would have been on trial for his life.

>It is extremely telling that this defense was never raised.

>As a lawyer, I find it surprising that these principal defendants, on
>trial for their lives, with the most intimate knowledge of the facts and
>within one year or two of the alleged incidents, never even alleged the
>existence of this hoax. Not a single one of them.

You do raise an interesting point. However some transcripts have been
posted here. For example one of them was Goering who is reported to
have commented something like ‘the higher up you are, the less you
know.’

They were clearly overwhelmed by the presentation.

But to continue, you appear to be relating this to what you expect in a
US trial today. There was nothing of the kind at Nuremberg.

Consider yourself as a defense attorney at the time. You were not given
access to the charges or the evidence prior to the trial other than
nebulous “crimes against humanity” and the like. You were not permitted
to investigate the people making the allegations first hand. You find
that unsigned, translated, typewritten statements by unknown people are
introduced into evidence against your client.

That is for openers. What is your response, counselor?

It gets worse. You have no jury and no say in those who will be the
judges and the jury and the executioners. Statements for the record by
the tribunal indicate that they have come into the “court” convinced
your client is guilty.

How do you deal with that, counselor?

And now, counselor, in comparision to the relatively minor crime of
serial murder how long would it take you to prepare your case given the
current legal standards you appear to be assuming? I think the correct
answer is 1-2 years. For something of this enormity, how long? Take a
guess.

With an army of defense attornies I would suggest 5 years minimum with
full access to the camps, forensic reports of gassing for example (never
introduced), and then entire chain of physical and witness testimony and
the ability to have anything not meeting present standards rejected from
consideration. And of course, for the attempt to introduce unsigned
statements from those never to be called as a witness, the ability to
claim prosecutorial misconduct and have them sanction if not disbarred.

You are assuming the groundrules were the same as in US courts today, on
perhaps in any real court short of the Inquisition. This is far from
the case. You may remember a few years ago when Al Capone received a
mock retrial under today’s US law. He was acquitted.

There is nothing in the IMT trials that approaches a real court. There
were enough irregularities for mistrials left and right, certainly more
than enough for reversals.

I have taken the liberty to append a couple of samples.

ERNST KALTENBRUNNER

During Kaltenbrunner’s cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
he had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
witnesses were lying (XI 349 <<385>>).

The “eyewitnesses”, of course, did not appear in court; they were merely
names on pieces of paper. One of these names is that of Franz Ziereis,
commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp.

Ziereis “confessed” to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades out of
human skin; manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a complicated
table of statistical information containing the exact number of inmates
in 31 different camps. He then accused Kaltenbrunner of ordering the
entire camp (Mauthausen) to be killed upon the approach of the
Americans.

Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
“confession”. Fortunately, the “confession” has been “remembered” by
someone else: a concentration camp inmate named Hans Marsalek, who never
appeared in court, but whose signature appears on the document (Document
3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286).

Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!), including
the statistical table, which states, for example, that there were 12,000
inmates at Ebensee; 12,000 at Mauthausen; 24,000 at Gusen I and II; 20
inmates at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at Klagenfurt-Junkerschule, etc,
for all of 31 camps in the table.

The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
at Ziereis’s “confession”, and no notes alleged to have been taken at
the time are appended to the document. The document bears two signatures
only: that of Hans Marsalek, the inmate; and that of Smith W. Brookhart
Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date 8 April 1946. Ziereis died 23
May 1945.

The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
multiple gunshot wounds through the stomach) to sign anything at the
time, but he was healthy enough to dictate this lengthy and complex
document, which was then “remembered” exactly and verbatim by Marsalek
for 10 and a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had no
motivation to lie. The document is in German. Brookhart was a confession
ghostwriter who also wrote the “confessions” of Rudolf Höss (in English,
Document 3868-PS) and Otto Ohlendorf (in German, Document 2620-PS).

(Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington Iowa. Address in
1992: 18 Hillside Drive, Denver Colorado, USA. Brookhart never answered
my letter as to whether he had any papers or memoirs.)

Ziereis’s “confession” continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
Shirer, Hilberg, and other itinerant peddlars of Holo-Schlock.

Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps or
“Stammlager” during the war (XI 268-269 <<298-299>>). The prosecution
total of 300 concentration camps was achieved by including perfectly
normal work camps. The 13th camp, Matzgau, near Danzig, was a special
camp whose prisoners were SS guards and police who had been sentenced to
imprisonment for offenses against prisoners in their charge: physical
mistreatment, embezzlement, theft of personal property, etc. This camp
with its inmate SS men fell into the hands of the Russians at the end of
the war (XI 312, 316 <<345, 350>>).

Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts were
far more severe than sentences passed by other courts for the same
offenses. The SS carried out frequent trials of their own men for
offenses against inmates and violations of discipline (XXI 264-291,
369-370 <<294- 323, 408-409>>).

Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the sole
purpose of obtaining information relating to future resistance activity;
it was forbidden for the purpose of obtaining confessions. These
interrogators required the presence of a doctor, and allowed a total of
20 blows with a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a process which
could not be repeated later. Other forms of legal “Nazi torture”
included confinement in a dark cell, or standing during lengthy
interrogations (XX 164, 180-181 <<184, 202-203>>; XXI 502-510; 528-530
<<556-565, 583-584>>).

Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
methods were used by police all over the world (XI 312 <<346>>) and that
respected police officials visited Germany to study German procedures
(XXI 373 <<412>>).

Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands of
pages divided between the Tribunal and “commission”, and 136,000
affidavits (XXI 346-373 <<382-412>>; 415 <<458>>, 444 <<492>>).

Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to “lynch” Allied airmen who
committed mass bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been
illegal, but did not occur. Many airmen were saved from mobs by German
officials. The Germans refused to contemplate such a matter, fearing it
would lead to a general slaughter of parchuted fliers. Like so many
other German crimes, this remained an idea without effect (XXI 406-407
<<449- 450>>, 472-476 <<522-527>>).

Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the so-
called “Bullet Order”. This is supposed to have been an order to shoot
prisoners of war using a measuring contraption (probably inspired by the
Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain bashing machine, Document USSR-52, VII
377 <<416-417>>).

The “Bullet Order”, Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
which it probably is not (XVIII 35-36 <<43-44>>) is a mistranslation:
the sense of the order is that prisoners who attempt to escape should be
chained to an iron ball (Kugel), and not that they should be shot with a
“bullet” (also Kugel). The word “chained” appears in the document, but
the word “shot” does not (III 506 <<565>>; XXI 514 <<568>>); Gestapo
affidavit 75; XXI 299 <<332>>). The document is a “teletype” thus,
without a signature (XXVII 424-428).

“Sonderbehandlung” (special treatment) is an example of the ugly jargon
used in all bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as “treatment
on a case by case basis”. Kaltenbrunner was able to show that it meant,
in the context of one document, the right to drink champagne and take
French lessons. The prosecution got a winter resort mixed up with a
concentration camp (XI 338-339 <<374-375>>); (XI 232-386 <<259-427>>;
XVIII 40-68 <<49-80>>). (The winter resort document is Document 3839-PS,
XXXIII 197- 199, an “affidavit”).

=====

DOCUMENTS

The standard version of events is that the Allies examined 100,000
documents and chose 1,000 which were introduced into evidence, and that
the original documents were then deposited in the Peace Palace at The
Hague. This is rather inexact.

Robert Jackson got the trial off to a start by quoting the following
forged or otherwise worthless documents: 1947-PS; 1721-PS; 1014-PS;
81-PS; 212-PS; and many others (II 120-142 <<141-168>>).

1947-PS is a ‘copy’ of a ‘translation’ of a letter from General Fritsch
to the Baroness von Schutzbar-Milchling. The Baroness later signed an
affidavit stating that she never received the letter in question (XXI
381 <<420-421>>).

The falsified ‘letter’ from General Fritsch to the Baroness von
Schutzbar- Milchling was recognized as such during the trial and is not
included in the document volumes, where it should appear at XXVIII 44.
Jackson was not, however, admonished by the Tribunal (XXI 380 <<420>>).

The enthusiastic Americans apparently forged 15 of these ‘translations’,
after which the original documents all disappeared (See Taylor, Captured
Documents). 1721-PS is a forgery in which an SA man writes a report to
himself about how he is carrying out an order which is quoted verbatim
in the report. Handwritten markings on page 1 (XXI 137-141 <<157-161>>;
195-198 <<219-224>>; 425 <<470>>; XXII 147-150 <<169-172>>. See also
Testimony Before the Commission, Fuss, 25 April, and Lucke, 7 May 1946).

The National Archives have a positive photostat of 1721-PS, and The
Hague has a negative photostat. The ‘original’ is a photocopy (XXVII
485).

1014-PS is a falsified ‘Hitler Speech’ written on plain paper by an
unknown person. The document bears the heading ‘Second Speech’ although
it is known that Hitler gave only one speech on that date. There are
four versions of this speech, 3 of them forgeries: 1014-PS, 798-PS, L-3,
and an authentic version, Ra-27 (XVII 406-408 <<445-447>>; XVIII 390-402
<<426- 439>>.

The third forgery, Document L-3, bears an FBI laboratory stamp and was
never even accepted into evidence (II 286 <<320-321>>), but 250 copies
of it were given to the press as authentic (II 286-293 <<320-328>>).

This document is quoted by A.J.P. Taylor on page 254 of The Origins of
the Second World War (Fawcett Paperbacks, 2nd Edition, with Answer to
his Critics) giving his source as German Foreign Policy, Series D vii,
No 192 and 193.

L-3 is the source of many statements attributed to Hitler, particularly
“who today remembers the fate of the Armenians?” and “our enemies are
little worms, I saw them at Munich”. ‘Hitler’ also compares himself to
Genghis Khan and says he will exterminate the Poles, and kick
Chamberlain in the groin in front of the photographers. The document
appears to have been prepared on the same typewriter as many other
Nuremberg documents, including the two other versions of the same
speech. This typewriter was probably a Martin from the
Triumph-Adler-Werke, Nuremberg.

81-PS is a ‘certified true copy’ of an unsigned letter on plain paper
prepared by an unknown person. If authentic, it is the first draft of a
letter never sent. This is invariably spoken of as a letter written by
Rosenberg, which Rosenberg denied (XI 510-511 <<560-561>>). The document
lacks signature, initial, blank journal number (a bureaucratic marking)
and was not found among the papers of the person to whom it was
addressed (XVII 612 <<664>>). 81-PS is a ‘photocopy’ with a Soviet
exhibit number (USSR- 353, XXV 156-161).

212-PS was also prepared by an unknown person, entirely on plain paper,
without any handwritten markings, date, address, or stamp (III 540
<<602>>, XXV 302-306; see also photocopies of negative photostats from
The Hague).

This is, unfortunately, only typical. Document 386-PS, the ‘Hossbach
Protokoll’, Hitler’s supposed speech of 5 November 1938, is a certified
photocopy of a microfilm copy of a re-typed ‘certified true copy’
prepared by an American, of a re-typed ‘certified true copy’ prepared by
a German, of unauthenticated handwritten notes by Hossbach, of a speech
by Hitler, written from memory 5 days later. This is not the worst
document, but one of the best, because we know who made one of the
copies. The text of 386- PS has been ‘edited’ (XLII 228-230).

Thus ‘trial by document’ works as follows: A, an unknown person, listens
to alleged ‘oral statements’ made by B, and takes notes or prepares a
document on the basis of those alleged oral statements. The document is
then introduced into evidence, not against A, who made the copy, but
against B, C, D, E and a host of other people, although there is nothing
to connect them with the document or the alleged statements. It is
casually stated as fact that ‘B said’, or that ‘C did’, or that ‘D and E
knew’. This is contrary to the rules of evidence of all civilised
countries. Nor are the documents identified by witnesses.

The forgery of original documents was rarely resorted to at Nuremberg,
because the documents were not brought to court. The “original document”
– that is, the original unsigned “copy” – was kept in a safe in the
Document Centre (II 195 <<224>>, 256-258 <<289-292>>).

Then, 2 “photocopies” of the “copy” (V 21 <<29>>) or 6 photocopies (II
251- 253 <<284-286>>) were prepared and brought to court. All other
copies were re-typed on a mimeograph using a stencil (IX 504
<<558-559>>).

In the transcript, the word “original” is used to mean “photocopy” (II
249- 250 <<283-284>>; XIII 200 <<223>>, 508 <<560>>, 519 <<573>>, XV 43
<<53>>, 169 <<189>> 171 <<191>> 327 <<359>>), to distinguish the
photocopies from the mimeograph copies (IV 245-246 <<273-274>>).

“Translations” of all documents were available from the beginning of the
trial (II 159-160 <<187-189>>, 191 <<219-220>>, 195 <<224>>, 215
<<245>>, 249-250 <<282-283>>, 277 <<312>>, 415 <<458>>, 437
<<482-483>>), but the “original” German texts were not available until
at least two months later. This applies not just to the trial briefs and
indictment, etc. but to ALL DOCUMENTS. The defense received no documents
in German until after January 9, 1946 (V 22-26 <<31-35>>).

Documents which appear to have been prepared on the same typewriter
include Document 3803-PS, a letter from Kaltenbrunner to the Mayor of
Vienna, and the cover letter from this same Mayor sending
Kaltenbrunner’s letter to the Tribunal (XI 345-348 <<381-385>>). This
letter from Kaltenbrunner contains a false geographical term (XIV 416
<<458>>).

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:20 PDT 1996
Article: 46504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:32:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:35:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46504 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56366

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>Actually, this is not the first time we’ve seen this sort of
>>long-term, all out assault. As to the numbers, our present
>>troll is a piker, hardly worth our time.

>Perhaps “pike” would be a better word? 🙂

>>Consider the fact that Dan Gannon, a man who now finds it more comfortable
>>- and perhaps more profitable – to offer his users sexually explicit adult
>>images than Holocaust denial, once
>>appeared on the UseNet “Top 50 Posters By Volume” on the
>>entire net. He was consistantly within the top 25 for month
>>after month. Unlike our present pretender, Mr. Gannon
>>sometimes spammed as many as 80+ newsgroups at a shot.

>Now Mr. McVay, don’t reveal to Mr. Giwer how badly he trolls. And how badly
>he spams. Hell, he’ll probably start spamming the whole Usenet.

>>Be patient with Mr. Giwer. He has not yet learned those things which Dan
>>Gannon learned, but he is trying, even if weakly, to emulate him. Matt
>>Giwer, The Man Who Would Be King: not even a ranking spammer. It’s sad,
>>really. Giwer can’t even get net abuse down pat.

>A third-rate spammer, not worthy to be even mentioned in the same breath
>with Gannon.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:21 PDT 1996
Article: 46511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster – Faustian Follies?
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:49:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:52:40 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>Curtis) said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>>>Curtis) writes:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why don’t we start with the level of honor shown by people who refuse
>>>>>to post under their own names?
>>>>
>>>>It has been suuggested that Ehrlich here might be a couple of other
>>>>names appearing here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Insinuated by none other than Hilary Rodham Ostrov at the top of this
>>>thread, perhaps after a private chat with Eleanor Roosevelt. But this is
>>>a typical tactic, to make insinuations in front of a question mark, and
>>>then to pretend outrage when accused of dishonesty.

>>Actually no. It was entirely somone else. So I think your hate is
>>misplaced. Rather funny actually.

>>HeHe. (And it isn’t I)

>Hehehe. Was it Marduk? 🙂 [Is that a good enough clue?]

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:22 PDT 1996
Article: 46512 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:21:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:24:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>>>>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>>>member of this so-called “Gang of Six.”
>>>>
>>>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>>>>
>>>>>> I got the contributor’s list from Nizkor. Tell them to take you off of
>>>>>>it if you do not want the honor. Until they take you off, don’t
>>>>>>complain to me.
>>>>
>>>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>>>>
>>>> There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>>>>plan how to deal with people. It is clearly implied that it is the
>>>>Nizkor gang. As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>>>>the posts have been confirmed.
>>
>>> Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the “Gang of Six,”
>>>yet my approach has not changed. It appears we have a very unreliable
>>>eyewitness once again.
>>
>>
>>>> When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>>>brush. Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.
>>
>>> Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
>>>call him an Nazi and antisemite. For a good many of the revisionist crowd
>>>are antisemites and neo-Nazi types. He was just tarred with the same
>>>brush.
>>
>> Then you have no gripe, do you?

> I have not used that brush.

Are you unaware of what you are posting?

>>All you have to do now is support your
>>claim about the “revisionist” crowd.

> Milton Kleim, Jr. will tell you himself that he is a National
>Socialist.

Why would I care about a defunct political group in another country?

If you have ever read my website you know what I think of government in
general much less that type.

> Friedrich Berg, when he graced us with his presence, spoke of “filthy
>Talmudic logic” and all the Jews in Poland, spottable by the fact that
>they were ugly and they answered questions with questions.

I have no idea of that but it sounds more like they were all lawyers.

> Michael Hoffman II gave the standard dishonestly edited and distorted
>list of out-of-context quotes from the Talmud. He said Paul Shrader, the
>screenwriter for “The Last Temptation of Christ” (which Hoffman considered
>anti-Christian) was Jewish (Shrader is not).

Good sir, I will consider Hollywood honest when there is equal treatment
of Yeshua and Moses and not before. The only difference is that there
is a slightly greater chance that Yeshua existed than Moses.

> There is a start. And they all posted here.

That is your problem, not mine.

> But I have not used the broad brush. I have never claimed that they
>were all in that category. Quite the opposite.

You are a holohugger. Sorry about that.

>> Of course all that you have to point to are the self-avowed nazi types
>>and then to claim the reverse is true in an amazing exercise of a known
>>fallacy.

> I have not exercised the fallacy, however. You are cordially invited
>to document any occasion where I have asserted guilt by association,
>either against you or any other person. I am quite confident that you
>cannot. Yet you have done it to me. You exercised the fallacy, not I.

You are playing a very old game. You pass the duck test for being a
duck but you have avoided specific statements. I have seen it done for
over 15 years now.

Why do you think you invented this technique?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46513 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I control Giwer
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:36:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 188
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:38:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>As will now be obvious to even occasional readers of this newsgroup, I
>>>clearly control Giwer. This is in spite of his boasts that he controls
>this
>>>newsgroup. He seems, in his besotted state, to confuse lots of posts with
>>>control, forgetting that he himself said one time that there is no
>>>additional charge involved in downloading large newsgroups. Oblivious to
>>>the fact that he makes himself the fool with each post, he continues to
>>>pound away at the keyboard, lurching from semi-coherency to besotted
>>>vulgarity.

>> This was a very stupid thing to go, McFly.

>Oh, I don’t know. It got *exactly* the response I expected. What an easy
>job it was, to out-troll the troller. Hehehe.

>BTW, if Mr. McVay sees this, I hope he will translate the expression, “This
>was a very stupid thing to go, McFly”.

Fine with me.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>>>You will note that Giwer has not responded to my last several posts.
>>>Instead, he has simply quoted the entire post, and added some silly quotes
>>>he stole from a revisionist Wen site, or, more likely, that are being fed
>to
>>>him by other denier scum, since he has failed to show himself capable of
>any
>>>research that is less than 80-proof.

>>>What he doesn’t realize is how transparent it is how I conned him into
>doing
>>>this. When I started posting my mantra, I knew that he would go through
>>>three stages: ignore it; rage about it; and emulate it. Of course, he did
>>>exactly that, exactly as I had predicted. It is the same with the Marduk
>>>affair. He emulated that strategy, and started forging his own messages.
>>>He was reduced to the rather pathetic position of bawling that I was
>Marduk,
>>>a stupid assertion that Giwer knew to be untrue and that must have been as
>>>amusing to Marduk as it was to me. Giwer must have been very embarrassed
>>>when the person he claimed would support his position mailed several
>people,
>>>including him, to say that he was a liar.

>>>Then there was the lawsuit affair. I knew that if I baited him enough, he
>>>would libel me. I goaded him into it. Like the compliant little puppet
>he
>>>is, he fell for it, hook, line and sinker. The master troller was trolled
>>>by a third-rate holohugger. He posted the libel and still quakes with
>fear,
>>>waiting for the papers to be served. And I keep him quaking, by reminding
>>>him that the papers will be served when I, not he, decides. Hell, I may
>do
>>>it in person.

>>>I e-mailed him the other day. I told him that it was a serious attempt to
>>>find out what makes him tick. But I knew what he would do. He would send
>a
>>>smirking, insulting reply, and then he would post my e-mail publicly. And
>>>what happened? Exactly what I willed to happen. But he went me one
>better.
>>>In his inebriated state, he forgot he had already replied, and replied a
>>>second time! Another show of obedience.

>>>So the master troller, the control freak, is really nothing more than a
>>>compliant little puppy who does what it is told. And as such, he loses
>the
>>>1% credibility that he may still have left.

>>>By the way, I know what he is going to do when he reads this post. I have
>>>that planned as well.

>>>Good little Mattie-fido.

>>>–
>>>Gord McFee

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:25 PDT 1996
Article: 46514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SOVIET PLANS TO INVADE GERMANY
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 04:26:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:29:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>HISTORIAN ACKNOWLEDGES SOVIET PLANS TO INVADE GERMANY

>By Richard Widmann

>Paul Carell, the renowed author and military historian has
>acknowleged that in 1941, Stalin and the high command of the Soviet
>Union had completed preparations for an offensive against Germany.

>Carell, the author of numerous volumes, including “Invasion!
>They’re Coming,” “Foxes of the Desert,” “Operation Barbarossa,” and
>”Hitler Moves East, 1941-1943,” has revealed the Soviet plans in
>the preface to the new edition of his classic, “Scorched Earth: The
>Russian-German War 1943-1944.”

>According to Carell, “The secret documents of the Soviet High
>Command” reveal that “the long-accepted view of …a peace-loving
>Soviet Union, organized only for defense, was attacked without
>cause by Germany, can no longer be supported.”

Thank you. Some months ago I posted that this bit of information first
popularized by Buchanan which brought the usual BS you would expect from
the holohuggers.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:25 PDT 1996
Article: 46515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: revising the data, save the total
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 04:23:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:25:32 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Given is that the only answer the holohuggers can come up with is that
“historians never believed it” when discussing the downward revisions of
the various camps I have some questions.

Why is it that they assume no one was able to add up the number by camp
and come up with 6 million 40-50 years ago?

The number was 6M at Nuremberg despite the claims about hisorians.

Auschwitz has lost 3M, Majdanek 1.5M (50K remaining) and Treblinka 1.2M.
That is 5.7M non-deaths that are acknowledged. Given that the current
number of deaths is supposed to be 5.2M it is difficult to see why 40-50
years ago, the numbers did not add up to 11.9M (giving Einsatzgruppen
credit for 1M.)

More deaths have gone away than there currently are supposed to have
been deaths.

We people in some manner unable to add back then?

Am I really the first to notice that there have been more non-deaths
lost to the total than the current estimate of the total deaths?

Lets try it another way. In the old days there were 4M at A-B, 1.5M at
Majdanek, 2M at Trebinka and 1M for the EG. That is 9.5M right there,
but the number was 6M. Did no one notice this in the good old days?

Noting of course this does not count three other camps.

=====

A related note for those who have just returned, some weeks ago I tried
to get someone to give me a number for the number of Jews who, solely
because they were Jews were summarily executed or were shipped to camps
to be executed. There response was either, irrelevant numbers, or
pretending not to understand the question.

Do any of you folks have such a number? The “solely because” is the
critical criteria. For example it would not count Jews in the
resistance or in reprisals for resistance activities.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:26 PDT 1996
Article: 46516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denier’s True Colours
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:45:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 215
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 2:48:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) said:

>[on Gutless Giwer]

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]ocalhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>>What do you make of Mr. Giwer’s posts? I see him living up to his word to
>>flood the newsgroup with posts to make it unreadable and unusable until
>>such time as we “get down to cases on his terms.” I see you and the other
>>repsondents to this thread saying that’s alright, Mr. Giwer has the right
>>to make the newsgroup unreadable until we post according to his terms. I
>>see the respondants to this thread saying that this is a “Revisionist”
>>newsgroup, and I take from this argument that the terms necessary for a
>>readable newsgroup are that Revisionists be allowed to post unopposed.

>He will fail in that respect, even if he and I are the only two readers
>left. Not only am I mountains more intelligent than he, even with my 12.9
>IQ, not only am I younger and therefore will outlive him (he thinks I’m 25),
>but I am able to do this *and* maintain a career at the same time.

>Not only that, he is not even a good spammer. He even screwed *that* up.
>(But I ain’t saying how–we’ll see if he figures it out.)

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:28 PDT 1996
Article: 46517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 03:59:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 11:01:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># EVERY fucking detail to be precise.

>This is simply a lie.

># There are exactly two methods described which conflict in
># every major detail.

>Plain rubbish.

># There are also IMT accepted testimony of steaming, electrocution
># and vacuum chambers. Therefore, you ain’t got jack.

>These are indeed erroneous reports, and historians have indeed
>rejected them. They were made by Poles who spied on the camps.

We have been over the spy story. You made it up.

The following is a close up description of the steaming including
details. This is an insider’s story. Historians have no grounds for
rejecting it save that it does not match the myth.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

So your excuse for blaming the steaming on spies who could not get close
is quite false.

>The much more accurate information, of course, was given by
>survivors and the SS-men who ran the camps.

You mean like this accurate information?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
way; there they were killed. ”
IMT VII – p.576-577.

>Moreover, at least the report I read which mentioned these
>methods, only raised them as a *possibility*.

You have been reading reformed rather than orthodox literature again.

That is, the
>people who wrote it did not know what was happening inside
>the chambers, and speculated that, maybe, one of these methods
>was used; it’s very possible that someone compiling these reports
>made the mistake of regarding these speculations as truths.

There are too many details for speculation. And never a “might” or a
“could” in the testimonies.

In other words, in light of the above, you are clearly misrepresenting
the testimony solely do down play what points out the nonsense of it.

>But, again: according to your “logic”, we also have to reject
>the bombing of Dresden, because there are erroneous testimonies
>about it. It’s really that simple.

I reject testmony that is contrary to fact. I look for physical
evidence. Brown must really have gone down hill in recent years that
they turn out PhDs to people who do not know the difference.

>[Regarding Giwer’s total lack of knowledge about Zyklon-B]

># How would an applied math type know? You are incapble of judging.

>It’s not only me, of course. It’s basic chemistry. You claimed
>that the HCN would not evaporate at all in a temperature of
>20 degrees. That is totally idiotic. Your estimate to the
>degassing time is off by a factor of 16. You don’t know
>anything. Period.

You posted a document that put the time between 6 and 12 hours for 98.5%
evaporation. I can not change that.

># The next time you get to your library look up a book on
># Nonlinear Acoustics by a certain Brown U. prof. Department head
># at the time. If you can’t find it, I will dig up my copy and give
># you a better reference. It is published by the Gov Printing Office
># under the auspices of NAVSHIPS. That was me.

>Don’t project your inferiority complex on me. You’re angry
>and frustrated with your life, and you most probably retired at
>a very early age because nobody wanted to hire you.

If you want to start the Cold War again … There isn’t much demand for
creative ways to kill Russians these days.

Did you ever
>read that book? I assume you were responsible to organizing its
>publication? What?

I funded it of course. Bob Beyers not that I remember. In another part
of the project was to get an application of it from concept to
production in one year. That is called real world. You need to try it
some time.

>You obviously cannot understand anything technical.

And that after we discussed your thesis.

Sorry about
>that. It ain’t my fault. Don’t blame me. You have posted so
>much rubbish on this newsgroup that it is impossible to take
>you seriously. All that is left is to point out your lies.

Lies your Polish lies at a distance story?

># Get over it. You are small time and have a lot to learn.

>But not from you, that is for sure. No one has anything to
>learn from you except for how to lie and spread hate propaganda.

You knew that when I found you here.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:29 PDT 1996
Article: 46518 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 04:02:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 139
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]x.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 11:05:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> writes:
>>
>> >>For those who cannot make it to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz to examine
>> >>Rascher’s origional letter rearding the testing of combat gases (and for
>> >>whimpering idiots like the Giwer-Troll who cannot comprehend what
>> >>archives are for) I have attached an image file of the letter (with
>> >>trnalsation, from _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_ (ISBN
>> >>3-87490-528-4), p.169; (Plate 356).
>>
>> In the midst of gratuitous insults at the Giwer, I have to say that I fail
>> to see the point.

>Of course you don’t, being too busy sucking-up to the Giwer-Troll

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

to
>realize that he was being a facetious twerp

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

by dismissing out-of-hand the
>posted translation of the memo simply because it was not the _origional_
>memo. Hence, the post including a scanned image of a photo of the memo in
>the Bundesarchiv.

>> The letter in question raises the possibility of testing combat gases on
>> inmates.

>Indeed. In an installation that was to be the same as the on at Linz (the
>T-4 facility at Hartheim Castle.) With prisoners from “invalid transports”
>who were going to end up (dead) at Hartheim anyways. Don’t you find this
>all rather revealing (and damning) as to Rascher’s intentions?

>> No one has ever claimed that this happened.

>Not true. Dr. Frantisek Blaha, a Czech physician who did autopsies for
>Rascher, claimed that experimental gassings took place in Barracke-X at
>Dachau. He claimed (with some contradictions) to have seen prisoners in
>the gas chamber who were dead. (_Nazi Mass Murder_, pp.204-204.)

>> Furthermore, we don’t even know what kind of gasses are involved.

>The request was for “combat gasses” for which reports were only available
>from “experiments on animals or of accidents which occured in the
>manufacture of the gases.” Hmm. Sounds like leathal and/or severely
>debilitating gases to me.

>> World War One vesicants, chokers, or lachrymants? Nerve agents like Tabun,
>> sarin or >soman? Who knows?

>Combat gases of that period are generally understood to be either mustard
>or nerve agents. Both types of agents were leathal and/or severely
>debilitating.

>> This is all hypothetical.

>Not true. The gas chamber existed. The memo requesting that such
>experiments be carried out existed. Blaha testifed that such experiments
>were carried out. This is _hardly_ hypothetical. Circumstantial maybe, but
>hardly hypothetical.

>[facetious drivel snipped]

>Care to squirm some more?

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:30 PDT 1996
Article: 46521 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: hope we all notice
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:49:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:51:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

The folks complaining about appropriate posts and spamming and the like
are engaging in a debate on operating systems right here and completely
off topic.

But then, the holohuggers never manage to notice their own failings.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]x.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:51:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:54:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Greg Raven) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “Michael P. Stein” writes:
>> > Excuse me, but I must be missing something. Other “revisionists” have
>> > posted here – Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>> > Vicksell, et al. And their claims have been addressed. They seem to have
>> > given it up. The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>> > J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

>My claims were addressed? This is news to me. I have repeatedly posted a
>couple of simple questions to this newsgroup, and virtually all the
>responses were personal attacks and long digressions on matters almost
>totally unrelated to my question. The one or two “substantive” responses
>were laughably silly.

>Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas chamber when I
>wasn’t looking?

I saw very clear posts that there is not one connection between the LK
and the testimony. But then, your mileage may vary.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46523 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:53:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:56:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## The relevant parts are the parts which discuss the speed with
>## which the HCN evaporates from the Zyklon.
>##
>## How long do you claim it takes? Want to take a shot at it?

># I would say somewhere around two to three hours.

>What a surprise!

>Whatever happened to the much longer (alleged) evaporation rates?

>Your fellow “revisionist”, Matt Giwer, who claims to have an
>IQ of 163 and numerous years of experience in the “real world”,
>gives 32 hours for a temperature of 5C and 6 hours for 30 C.

>Can you two make up your minds? How dare you contradict the
>mighty Giwer? He’ll start calling you a “holohugger”, beware!

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another good one
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:36:27 GMT

Anyone seriously interested in this gassing story should first go
to Nizkor and dig out the picture of one and then compare it to
this description. You will of course find they do not match in
the least.

=====

Kiev, 16.May.1942

Reich Secret Document

To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin

The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been
completed…

I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house
trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and
on the large
ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
country. The
vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
the civilian
population referred to them as the “Death Vans” as soon as one
appeared….

I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far
away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent
damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out…

The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to
get the Aktion
finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
accelerator as
far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of
suffocation
and do not doze off as was planned….

Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer

=====

Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that

1) the “gas leaking out” is no more dangerous than any auto
exhaust

2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized

and

3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these
trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of
the Dannys I believe.)

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46524 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:54:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:57:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>DvdThomas wrote:
>>John Morris wrote:
>>
>>>What you seem to
>>>be asking for is a newsgroup where you can discuss Revisionism without
>>>being challenged.
>>
>>That is utter nonsense. What he and others are demanding, not asking for,
>>is a forum where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.

>Not bloody likely with Mr. Giwer around or is Mr. Hunt blind to Mr.
>Giwer’s pattern of insulting anyone who demonstrates the absurdity of
>his reasoning?

>Regards,

>Rich Green

>–
>—————————————————————————-
>Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
>[email protected] Stanford University
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
> “Remember the days of yore,
> “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
> -Deuteronomy 32:7
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another good one
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:36:27 GMT

Anyone seriously interested in this gassing story should first go
to Nizkor and dig out the picture of one and then compare it to
this description. You will of course find they do not match in
the least.

=====

Kiev, 16.May.1942

Reich Secret Document

To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin

The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been
completed…

I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house
trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and
on the large
ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
country. The
vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
the civilian
population referred to them as the “Death Vans” as soon as one
appeared….

I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far
away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent
damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out…

The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to
get the Aktion
finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
accelerator as
far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of
suffocation
and do not doze off as was planned….

Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer

=====

Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that

1) the “gas leaking out” is no more dangerous than any auto
exhaust

2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized

and

3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these
trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of
the Dannys I believe.)

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46528 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 06:31:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 1:34:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] writes:
>>
>># Relevant, def. supports holohugger PNE fixation.
>>
>>No, relevant with regard to the rate of evaporation
>>of HCN from Zyklon. Seems your estimate was off by a
>>factor of 16 or so.

>About the same factor by which he has over-estimated his IQ, wouldn’t you
>say?

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA20928; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net(165.87.194.252) by ixmail2 via
smap (V1.3)
id smac05851; Tue Jun 18 22:14:25 1996
Received: (from [email protected]) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9)
id CAA74346 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:58:29 GMT
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from slip129-37-167-142.pq.ca.ibm.net(129.37.167.142) by
smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr)
id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:35 PDT 1996
Article: 46529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: help
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 04:31:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:34:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Borja Pi Corrales wrote:

>Hi! Could anybody help me? I do not know how to get a picture from a
>newsgroup and take it to the bookmark of my Netscape program. When I´m
>browsing and see any picture from a certain web page it´s very easy to
>do,all I have to do is to add it to my bookmark and that´s it, but I have
>no idea how I should do it if I want to import an image from a certain
>newsgroup, I´d like to know the steps I have to follow, because in the
>tool bar of the Netscape News there is not bookmark, so if somebody could
>tell me to do so… and send an E_Mail with the response…Thanks a lot

It can not be done at the moment. No browser supports UUENCODING.

You have to save the file and then separately UUDECODE it. You might
try Graphics Worshop for windows as a viewer. It is available from
Alchemy Mindworks from their websits.

MIME type encoding support is quite rare at the moment as a general
capability and should not be used.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:36 PDT 1996
Article: 46532 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:30:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 1:33:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> > Other than Joe MacCarthy,who made such a charge?
>>
>> >> Golly, gee whiz, you commie bastards are still around and behind the
>> >> times. The current records released by Russia have the same number
>> >> McCarthy used.
>> >
>> >> Sorry, asshole, McCarthy was right and the Russian records confirm it.
>> >
>> >> News at eleven.
>>
>> > Gee3 Matty-poo now you’re telling us that the *Soviets* were the
>> >ones who investigated chareges of brutalities by American soldiers
>investigating
>> >the murder of American soldiers?
>>
>> > Please, Matty-poo, the world wants details. Take another suck at the
>> >bourbon bottle and tell us all about it.
>>
>> One more attempt at character assassination. What else do
>holohuggers
>> have going for them?

> Poor Matty-poo. The heat gets turned up in the kitchen and he can’t
>stand it. Matty-poo blurts out insults like “Commie bastards” (defamation per se)
>and then complains that others are engaged in character assassination. He does
>this, of course, to obsfuscate.

> Matty-poo, confronted with an uncomfortable truth (i.e that his nazi
>heros were lying) claims that Russian cources now confirm Joe MacCarty’s
>charges that the defendants charged with killing American soldiers at Malmedy
>were tortured. Does he substantiate these claims? Of course not, we are dealing
>with Matty-poo — a fifty year old man with the emotional development of a six year
>old.

> Matty-poo calls names. What else can you expect from someone so
>gullible as to believe that someone could be beaten with rifle butts (note plural),
>pistol butts (note plural) and pistol barrels (note plural) and not sustain any injuries
>that could be found on medical examination.

> Porr little Matty-poo, in over his head again. Maybe he should go play
>with kids of his own (emotional) age.

What we are dealing with is a grown man claiming to be an attorney who
has yet to rise above baby talk.

Of you have a source you will not reveal of no injuries.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:37 PDT 1996
Article: 46538 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:40:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 12:43:19 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46538 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56399

[email protected] (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:

>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their
>email, you’re claiming to have read other people’s email without their
>permission. That’s a felony in the US.

It is not a felony in the US or any place in the world that I am aware
of.

>Or are you just lying (as usual)?

Is that the best you can do?

They have publically posted about the discussions.

Read the damned NG is you want to know what is going on.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 13:24:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:15:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 1:18:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken)
>>writes:
>>
>>> The fact that you have credulously accepted statements just
>>because a
>>>nazi made them does not mean that anybody in his right mind will accept
>>them
>>>as
>>>true.
>>
>>I wonder if this opinion would be as fervently held if the word *survivor*
>>was substituted for the word *nazi*.

>We had an excellent test of that some months ago, when Myshkin fabricated
>incredible “survivor” testimony in order to “refute” it. None of the
>”conventionalists” bought it. I’m sure this is archived on Nizkor
>somewhere.

>The “revisionists” also love to “quote” an incredible “geysers of blood”
>sentence from Elie Wiesel, or used to, until the real source and context
>were identified.

The real source it the incredible fart spurting explosions story which
was published a year before Wiesel stole it and converted it into
geysers of blood.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 16:13:25 PDT 1996
Article: 46543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What “DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY?”
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:04:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:07:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>>Revisionists – I thought I would share this recent article by Mr.
>>Grieb with the book. He has some fascinating insights.

>>Pat Buchanan and the Diesel Exhaust Controversy
>>By Conrad Grieb

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html

And upon going there you find Stein, a man of not credentials in the
subject whatsoever. Beyond that, he makes no technical points.

And thirdly, the is the kind of trash Nizkorites think is refutation.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 16:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 46547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:37:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 12:40:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56404 alt.revisionism:46547

[email protected] (Ricardo Hector Gonzales) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: You folks posted that I control the conference. I did not start that
>: claim.

>People have argued that no one controls or could control USENET. If that
>is true, then Mr. Giwer doesn’t and can’t control USENET or any part of
>it. He is only acting as an advisor. You are free to ignore all posts
>he makes.

>: >Note that the topic here is net abuse, not revisionism, so please send
>: >followups to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.

>: You will not be permitted to keep your efforts a secret from where they
>: are being hatched.

>Limiting or changing the discussion areas is a common ploy to stop
>open discussion.

>: As you know, you folks are the ones who have bragged about driving
>: people out of alt.revision for years. You folks have openly bragged
>: about harrassing people service providers, harrassing them personally,
>: and harrassing their families, as you folks have done to me and mine.

>It is sad what people do to try to stop the expression of ideas that
>they disagree with.

>: In other words, you fail to admit your posts in this newsgroup are
>: nothing more than another part of your harrassment campaign.

>Unfortunately, most Jewish groups that started from noble and honest
>roots have degenerated into PC organizations that only care about
>promoting propaganda and silencing ideas that disagree with their
>position.

>-Ric

>P.S. I am a Jew

You are on the right side of freedom of speech. Nothing else matters.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 16:13:27 PDT 1996
Article: 46548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:34:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:36:29 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>John Morris wrote:

>>On the contrary, I take it as a sign of the utter bankruptcy of
>>Revisionism that you personally have to resort to such tactics as
>>flooding this newsgroup with meaningless posts, and that Revisionists
>>not only will not speak out against such tactics, but openly support
>>them.

>Using a more cogent example, I have never taken Mr. Keren’s prediliction
>for endless reposting of the same dreary material, without even a pretense
>of doing so to share information or stimulate discussion, as a sign of the
>bankruptcy of anything save Mr. Keren’s imagination. To make a connection
>between his actions and historical accuracy would be ludicrous.

I would also point out that several times I have attempted to engage a
discussion based upon those repetitive posts and he has not respoonded
to any of those attempts.

So I guess it is about to start saving them and adding them to my
tagline collection with commentary. They are about as hillarious as the
ones I found on Nizkor.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 16:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 46549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A gassing we will go, A gassing we will go, Hi Ho the Merryo
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:38:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:40:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

An oldie but a goodie, directly from Nizkor

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another good one
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:36:27 GMT

Anyone seriously interested in this gassing story should first go
to Nizkor and dig out the picture of one and then compare it to
this description. You will of course find they do not match in
the least.

=====

Kiev, 16.May.1942

Reich Secret Document

To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin

The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been
completed…

I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house
trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and
on the large
ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
country. The
vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
the civilian
population referred to them as the “Death Vans” as soon as one
appeared….

I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far
away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent
damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out…

The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to
get the Aktion
finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
accelerator as
far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of
suffocation
and do not doze off as was planned….

Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer

=====

Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that

1) the “gas leaking out” is no more dangerous than any auto
exhaust

2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized

and

3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these
trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of
the Dannys I believe.)

From [email protected]etcom.com Fri Jun 28 18:12:08 PDT 1996
Article: 46583 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:33:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:35:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>> More than a religion, the Museum is motivated as a means of
>>instilling guilt,\

>Really? how’s that. Please explain how they make you feel guilty.

>> and as a means of continuing support for the Jewish
>>state of Israel,

>Really? How do they do that?

>> which is a religious state, which makes a mockery of
>>the U.S. separation of church and state clause.

>What on earth makes our constitution apply to them?

They operate under a charter established by the US Government. Or did
you miss that as a criteria for getting the land for free?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 20:37:27 PDT 1996
Article: 11278 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:14:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:17:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Barry Gaudet) wrote:

>Gumby ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Is there any record of democratic nations having gone to war with each
>: other? Aside from the case of the Civil War, have there been any other
>: cases? Just wondering.

> How about the original Greek city states? Were there states other than
>Athens that had a democratic system of government? They did seem to fight
>each other alot.

Their democracy was rather like the early democracy of Rome. The ruling
families voted.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:07:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 7:09:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >The film of the Auschwitz liberation has a clip showing some babies in
>> >> >prams as well as an adorable little boy about two feet tall in prison
>> >> >garb. I saw a TV interview of the guy. He cried a lot.
>> >>
>> >> I thought the story was nonsense. Thanks for the backup.
>>
>> >You are both aware, are you not, that by the time of the liberation, the
>> >gas chambers had been out of operation for some time? (Sorry, don’t have
>> >the specifics with me as I write this).
>>
>> Four months. That is not a little boy.

>Good heavens, Mr. Giwer! I said only that the gas chambers were shut
>down before liberation, not that _transports to_ the camp ceased.
>If there were children at Auschwitz after the gassings ceased, then they
>ARRIVED at the camp after the end of October, 1944. It does not mean that
>they were born at the camp.

Now you are saying those who talked about a show camp for families were
making it up just to paper over this unpleasant reality. Then we have
another claim that there were no Red Cross inspections at all. Here you
are claiming it was later shipments.

Why don’t all you folks get together and find a single explanation
before you start trying to cover up these things?

>> Therefore, film of children at
>> >the camp when it was liberated is immaterial to the general policy that
>> >was in effect when the gas chambers _were_ operating.
>>
>> >Also, one part of Auschwitz-Birkenau was the “family camp,” a show camp
>> >that was used to give Red Cross inspectors the impression that inmates
>> >were well cared for (and which was entirely liquidated several times,
>> >between Red Cross visits). Some children were allowed to live there as
>> >well, but that has no bearing on the policy elsewhere in the camp.
>>
>> You appear to be under some delusion that the Red Cross was so stupid
>> that it did not inspect the entire camp. That the RC would never in a
>> million years have expected a show part of the camp. They should have
>> had you on the inspection team.

>I haven’t researched this; I’m sure others who have can provide more
>information. As I recall, the IRC was denied access to other parts of
>the complex; I will look into this further. An analogous situation might
>be the current state of the UN’s attempts at inspeciting suspected
>chemical-weapons sites in Iraq: when your “hosts” have guns and tell you
>where you can and can’t look, you get very inadequate data. My guess is
>that it’s not the case that the IRC inspectors were fooled; simply that they
>were barred from seeing anything else.

>> >Also, “selections” were frequently capricious in determining who lived
>> >and who died. In general, childen under 15 were gassed on arrival, but
>> >some younger ones may have escaped from time to time. See Robert
>> >Jay Lifton’s _The Nazi Doctors_ for further discussion of the “selection”
>> >process.
>>
>> You folks keep quoting this crap in the face of physical evidence.
>>
>> Why is that?

>Please document your assertion that Lifton’s material is “crap.” I have
>no evidence that you’ve even read the book.

We have been considering the lack of physical evidence for gassing in
the first place. You want to introduce somone’s book that presumes
gassing.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46638 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 20:12:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 1:15:50 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>>
>>>2. The above analysis refers to the currently 50% or so of the newsgroup
>>> that does not concern Prince Myshkin, of course. The Myshkin half is
>>> all trolling. I don’t think Myshkin has anything particular against
>>> Jews or for Hitler. He just hates everybody.
>>>
>>>

>>Thanks for the vote of confidence, pal. As for Myshkin, aka Matt, I think
>>you misjudge him. He doesn’t hate anybody. But he doesn’t have to kiss
>>up to anybody either.

>I wonder about you, Mr. Ehrlich. Does calling a fellow poster a “cunt” not
>imply a little hate? Does making sexist, racist remarks not imply a little
>hate? Does making anti-semitic remarks not imply a little hate? Does doing
>*all* of the above, in the last week alone, not imply a *lot* of hate?
>Giwer has done all that.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – bellcurve.gif : Liberals Are Amazing People
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:35:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 9:38:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23996 alt.politics.white-power:34428 alt.revisionism:46674

Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Kevin Alfred Strom wrote:

>> The liberals are amazing people. They like to pride themselves on their
>> liberation from primitive fundamentalist religion and the stultifying
>> hierarchies and restrictions of tradition. They embrace science and
>> progress.
>>
>> They freely acknowledge the general scientific validity of evolutionary
>> theory. They laugh, at least in private, at the absurd religionists who
>> deny the idea of gradual genetic change bringing about all the forms of
>> life we see today.
>>
>> They thereby implicitly affirm that the form of every structure, every
>> organ, of every living being is determined by its genetic code.
>>
>> The flipper of the dolphin, the eggs of the robin, the structure of
>> phytoplankton — all determined primarily and fundamentally by genetic
>> structure. The inherited behavioral characteristics of animals, so often
>> crucial for their survival in various environments, are also freely
>> acknowledged.
>>
>> When it comes to man, they freely acknowledge that his hair form, eye
>> color, nose shape, limb length, and even susceptibility to various
>> diseases are all inherited characteristics, determined by his genetic
>> structure.
>>
>> But! …when it comes to _one organ_ of _one species_ — the human brain
>> — the liberal declares an exception. The function of the brain simply
>> _can’t_ be genetically determined! The human brain’s functions are
>> _uniquely_ mutable by the environment. This is not too different from the
>> religionist’s assertion that there is an immaterial spirit that is the
>> real seat of human personality. The liberals’ one exception to the laws
>> of genetics reeks of “magic,” which one senses most strongly when they
>> wax poetic over the “human dignity” possessed by mental defectives or
>> cannibals because of some immaterial wonderful something that inheres in
>> everything that is arguably human.
>>
>> This exception will eventually be regarded, in my opinion, as a last
>> holdout of the Biblical view that man is separate from and above the rest
>> of Nature. For liberals have not really liberated themselves from
>> Christianity at all. They have dispensed with God and the prophets, of
>> course, but their baseless “all men are equal” religion is just the
>> poisonous residue of the irrational Middle Eastern religion that they
>> think they have rejected.
>>
>> With all good wishes,
>>
>> —
>>
>>
>> Kevin Alfred Strom
>>
>>

>Sir, from your above statements you prove only that you are unwilling or
>unable to grasp my argument. Rejecting ‘bad science’ (The Bell Curve)
>does not mean that ‘liberals’ reject science selectively, as you imply.

As you have no ability to judge science, you have no basis for rejecting
it. In any event you might at least read it.

>It is not ‘we’ who use science selectively, it is ‘you.’

>I will state it again:

>You would serve your racialist cause better to return to the fantasies
>with which your views have been traditionally justified, because the thin
>veneer of science in which you have covered your ideas peels away with
>the slightest touch.

As you know nothing of science, how can you say?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:53 PDT 1996
Article: 46676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And the Color is: Mauve! … _Mauve?_
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:16:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 1:19:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> From the memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli, *Auschwitz*, p. 51
>>
>> He opened one of the cans and poured the contents — a mauve
>> granulated substance — into the opening. The granulated substance fell
>> in a lump to the bottom. The gas it produced escaped through the
>> perforations, and within a few seconds filled the room in which the
>> deportees were stacked. Within five minutes, everyone was dead. > quote>
>>
>> More later. The color of Zyklon B was mauve. Period.

>Uh huh.

>mauve n. – 2 any of several shades of delicate purple.

>Zyklon B “Purpurnsa”ure”

>Right.

>From the Reminiscences of Broad, _KL Auschwitz Seen by the SS_ (p.176):

>”…Several victims noticed that covers had been removed from the siz
>holes in the ceiling. They uttered a load cry of terror when they saw a
>head in a gas-mask in one opening. The ‘disinfectors’ were at work. One of
>them was _SS Unterscharfu”hrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War
>Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few innocously looking
>tims which bore the inscription “Cyclon, to be used against vermin.
>Attention, poison! To be opened by trained personnel only!’ The tins were
>filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then
>quickly covered…. Cyclon acted swiftly. It consists of cyanide hydrogen
>in solid form. As soon as the tin was emptied, the prussic acid escaped
>from the granules…. Some two minutes later the screams became less loud
>and only an indistinct groaning was heard. The majority of the gassed had
>already lost consciousness. Two minutes more and Grabner stopped lookng at
>his watch. There was complete silence….”

>But at least it appears that everyone is agreement (except the G*wer-Troll
>and Moran, of course) that Zyklon B evaporates and kills within minutes.

People here are only qualified to quote from derivative sources.
Therefore the agreement is meaningless.

>But you knew that and wanted to try and pull somebody’s chain anyways, right?

>Behold the “new” Mr. E.

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts her that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:54 PDT 1996
Article: 46701 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:03:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 2:06:09 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>[To Matt Giwer]
>
>## No, relevant with regard to the rate of evaporation
>## of HCN from Zyklon. Seems your estimate was off by a
>## factor of 16 or so.
>
># A repeated assertion. Now where is the clear statement
># of evaporation time you promised?

>The source – courtesy of Dr. Ulrich Roessler, with translation
>help by Gordon McFee and Jamie McCarthy – is the following
>article:

>G. Peters, W. Rasch, Die Einsatzfaehigkeit der Blausaeure-Durchgasung
>bei tiefen Temperaturen, Zeitschrift fuer hygienische Zoologie und
>Schaedlingsbekaempfung, 1941.
>
>i.e.
>
>G. Peters, W. Rasch, The Serviceability of Prussic Acid
>Gassing at Low Temperatures, Journal of Hygienic Zoology and Pest
>Control, 1941, 133f.

>Relevant pages have been scanned and posted to Nizkor’s web site:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>European mirror site

>tp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>in the files

>PR132.jpg PR134.jpg PR136.jpg
>PR133.jpg PR135.jpg PR137.jpg

>The most relevant material is in page 136:

> From these analytical measurements the following may be concluded:

> 1. In all cases, the most substantial part of the development of the
> gas had taken place/been effected after one or at most two hours.
> (A control of the remainders [Rueckstaende] after these corresponding
> times proved that the gas had evaporated from them without any
> residues [deren restlose Entgasung].) Hence, the evaporation of the
> prussic acid/HCN did not slow down considerably because of low
> temperatures.

>Note that the article discusses rather low temperatures, that is,
>under 0 Celsius.

If one takes “the most substantial part” to mean more than half, then
you have established a half life of between 1-2 hours. Then we are only
talking the number of half lives until it is safe to handle. If we take
safe to be 99% exhausted, that is about six half lives.

That puts the outgassing time between 6 and 12 hours.

Unless of course you wish to quibble over “most substantial part” it
would behoove you to find a technical translation of the original words.
Else we have 6-12 hours.

>This, and other material found in Dr. Peters’ book, totally
>refute “revisionist” lies about the rate of evaporation of
>Zyklon-B.

It was good for you to post the information that supports the
revisionist position.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!torn!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 04:48:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 11:51:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:62659 alt.politics.usa.republican:224171 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328506 alt.politics.perot:49809 alt.revisionism:46708

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Hey, Keren! Where is your story…

>As this repetitious nonsense in no way addresses my previous posts,
>I take it that Mr. Giwer cannot defend himself from my charges that
>he lies and tries to conceal it with name-calling.

The following is no namecalling. And, as I noted, when I am attacked I
will attack your precious holocaust. If you have a problem with that,
the answer is in your hands.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes
and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women
and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow
or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping
and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward
and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over.”

IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

This affidavit was part of the opening prosecution, read into the
record on December 14, 1945. It is quoted in part in GM Gilbert’s
*Nuremberg Diary* p. 69. To say that it is not eyewitness testimony is
a technicality.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46709 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s crocodile tears
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:58:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:01:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Greg Raven) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>> >Isn’t it the case that the appeal threw out the law itself rather than
>>> >the verdict? In other words, Mr. Zuendel was indeed proven to be a
>>> >liar, but the the higher court found that lying isn’t a crime.
>>>
>>> That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly
>>> published lies – in my book, that makes him a liar 🙂
>>
>>No doubt, if the Court had determined that someone was a witch, and had
>>burned him at the stake, any subsequent opinions that there were no such
>>things as witches would not change that person’s witchworthiness.

>This wasn’t a capital case Zundel was involved in. Therefore the death
>pentalty is a nonissue here.

It reads to me like the issue is the finding of the jury not the death
penalty.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 11303 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: WI no “Bambi effect?”
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:14:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 11:17:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Eric Oppen) wrote:

>Recently, for my many sins, I found myself reading a lot on
>talk.politics.animals. After reading a bunch of animal rights’ advocates’
>posts, I was about in a mood to go out and napalm a few forests.

>What I was wondering was: How different would our society be if we
>absolutely did NOT empathize with non-human animals? A lot of the
>opposition to hunting, as well as the animal-rights movement and anti-meat
>activism, comes from attributing human-level feelings and cognition to
>animals. This is anthropomorphization, but I call it the “Bambi effect,”
>after the well-known Disney film.

>What would human society be like if feeling sorry for the bull in the
>bullfight, or in the slaughterhouse, was _prima faciae_ evidence of having
>serious screws loose?

A hundred or so years ago, it was. I think it was the rise of the
reward system of training marked the start of the change in attitude.
And then technology didn’t hurt either, getting people out of daily
contact with animals caused people to forget what they are really like.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 11309 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:53:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4qketr$b5o[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 11:56:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (David) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>> Doesn’t the lack of physical evidence for these mass gassings strike you
>>as rather strange? I can’t imagine that lack not arousing anyone’s
>>curiosity.

>What the hell do you expect?? In Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno there were
>uprisings during which the prisoners on the Sonderkommandos (That’s pretty
>much the only reason they were there – to make the camp look “lived in” and
>to help burn/bury the bodies) broke out of the camps.

>Not long after, the Germans burned the camps down to the ground in order
>to remove physical evidence that they existed –

Building foundations and footings do not burn. They have not been
found.

No matter how you cut it there are 2000 tons of bones supposed to be
buried in a five acre area and all that can be found are a few
fragments.

At Nuremberg there was testimony not only to gassing but to steaming,
electrocution and vacuum chambers being used for MASS extermination.

But look at the story of Treblinka. If this is true we have a massive
facility consisting of ten gas chambers, housing and mess facilities for
the workers and an unknown number of burning pits (and testimony of
crematoria that are not to be found either.) I think anyone would
consider this a rather expensive set up. Yet, according to testimony,
the CO for gassing came from a diesel engine recovered from a Russian
tank that had to be repaired before it could be used.

Some planning.

they weren’t all that succ-
>essful as the SS, for example, was only able to partially destroy the gas
>chambers and crematoria of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

In fact the “destruction method” was of a morgue that was apparently
modified to serve a dual function as a bomb shelter. There are
distinctive features of a bomb shelter but a missing major features that
would make them suitable for use with cyanide.

>Also bear in mind that the reconstructions in Auschwitz-Birkenau don’t
>fit in with the exhausts of the crematoria because the chimneys were
>rebuilt after the war in order to show what the place might have looked
>like to the prisoners actually arriving during the 1940s.

There was only one “rebuilt” bunker that was reconstructed to try to
match many conflicting descriptions was at Auschwitz. The other four
were at Birkenau. The “destruction” consistend of dynamiting to make
them useless for any function. At the most it makes physical evidence
only a bit harder to find. None has ever been found.

>> Neither the bodies nor the ashes from these supposed death camps have
>>ever been found either.

>Of course not, you idiot! They all went up in smoke.

There is a website entitled the Internet Cremation Society. You will
find its URL below. They say that for a cremation five to seven pounds
of bones remain. Today’s cremation takes about two hours. The
requirement for Auschwitz cremation is for 20 minutes to process the
number of bodies in the reported time frames. If anything, more is ash
left.

>Smoke particles don’t lie around for better than 50 years waiting for you
>to find them. Not to mention that the ashes went out as fertilizer and at this
>point in time, have been recycled thousands of times through the soils
>of Germany.

But the issue comes to Treblinka where the claim was that they were all
buried in a relatively small area.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT

http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

Dec 26, 1995 @
Q. What’s left after a body is cremated? It’s ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term “ashes” is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

===

800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
fragments missing. Buried in a 5 acre area. 400 tons of bone fragments
per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.

1,200,000 at Auschwitz. 3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
through a 1 centimeter mesh.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 46721 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:06:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:08:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On 23 Jun 1996 03:40:46 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>writes:
>>
>>>
>>>>For those who cannot make it to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz to examine
>>>>Rascher’s origional letter rearding the testing of combat gases (and for
>>>>whimpering idiots like the Giwer-Troll who cannot comprehend what
>>archives
>>>>are for) I have attached an image file of the letter (with trnalsation,
>>>>from _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_ (ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p.169;
>>>>(Plate 356).

>>In the midst of gratuitous insults at the Giwer, I have to say that I fail
>>to see the point. The letter in question raises the possibility of
>>testing combat gases on inmates. No one has ever claimed that this
>>happened. Furthermore, we don’t even know what kind of gasses are
>>involved. World War One vesicants, chokers, or lachrymants? Nerve agents
>>like Tabun, sarin or soman? Who knows? This is all hypothetical.

>I am amazed that no one has grasped the essential point of Dr.
>Rascher’s paragraph. No one claims that it proves that people were
>killed by poison gas at Dachau or even that combat gases of any kind
>were actually tested at Dachau. The essential point is that Rascher
>writes to Himmler to inform him that the facilities exist–the same
>facilities as are installed at Hartheim–which would make it possible
>to test such gases, i.e., a gas chamber.

The “i.e.” is your addition. Something exist that could be suitable for
such testing. I thought we had established that there is no such thing
as a generic gas chamber.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:14 PDT 1996
Article: 46726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:36:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:39:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard Schultz) said:

>>
>>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>>: To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if :
>>people follow your suggestion.

>>What a card this Myshkin guy is. As it happens, other revisionist types
>>(most notably Milton Kleim) have made this sort of claim before, and this
>>claim is invariably shown to be untrue. The lurkers on this newsfroup
>>almost certainly see you for what you are — a pathetic liar with the
>>inability to keep his own lies straight, let alone deal with the
>>refutations of those lies.

>More than that. Now that I have him under my control, his days in this
>newsgroup are numbered.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:15 PDT 1996
Article: 46729 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:48:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:51:21 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected]rv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:24:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>>Post you calculations.

>>> After you, my dear Alphonse. Your claim, your burden of proof. Sorry
>>>about that.

>> I did. You deleted them, asshole. What kind of stupid game do you
>>think you are playing?

>Please stick to topics, and do not resort to unprovoked name calling.

>–
> John Morris
> at University of Alberta
>————————————————————————
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
> File archives – ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Web page – http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:16 PDT 1996
Article: 46744 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:28:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:31:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:

># There were also huge numbers of corpses that had to be burned,
># and they were burned in large pyres in the street. It took
># several weeks to burn them all. Photographs are around.

>I understand that these photographs show that the corpses were
>burned in rather the same manner corpses of victims in some
>death camps were burned, is that correct?

Not in the least. Wooden pyres were made from the rubble and bodies
were put on them.

>But “revisionists” (notably Al Baron) repeatedly claim that
>it is impossible to burn corpses that way.

They were not simply “ignited” by pouring a flammable liquid on the
bodies.

But you know that.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:17 PDT 1996
Article: 46785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:55:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 2:58:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Tommy, Baby, you possess an underdeveloped sense of humor, among other
>short comings in your possession. My dealings with Giwer are my
>dealings with Giwer. Maybe we have fun, maybe you just don’t get it,
>but whatever!
>My dealings with you are different. I think Giwer is a clown, nuts,
>fruitcake. It’s his hobby. Maybe the guy isn’t a bigot, maybe he is, I
>don’t care, but he goes off in all directions, and what I do is play
>with him, like a pet snake. So if it’s foolish, it’s foolish. I jumped
>Giwer’s ass about garbage he posted on a fine woman. He got real
>nasty, I got real nasty. That’s my way of kicking Giwers ass. He (I do
>believe) understands the game, because lately, all he dishes out to me
>are cheap shot one liners, which tells me, he’s stuck.
>You on the other hand, come across as a serious antisemitic, racist,
>hateful son of a bitch. I can laugh at Giwer’s stupid babbling, you
>don’t bring out any of my good humor. So when I try to bash you, Tommy
>Baby, I mean it. You suck!

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

>tom moran wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree writes: (Chuck was born Hillary J. Nussbaum) but changed
>> >the name same time changed sex. Always wanted to be a man!!! A good
>> >man at that!
>> >
>> >
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Mel Brooks was born Kevin O’Keefe but changed his name for professional
>> >> reasons.
>> >
>> >Matt Giwer was born Alfred T. Jolson, a Cantor in Yiddish, but soon
>> >discovered his father was from Poland, a pig farmer, so changed his
>> >name for non-professional reasons. Really wants to change back, but
>> >can’t afford the big bucks
>>
>> Now I can’t figure out why they call you “Chuckles”.

>Mr. Giwer first called me “Chuckles” while putting me down, so he
>thought at the time, for being a fighter pilot who liberated Nazi
>camps after strafing them. So if that Chuckles business bothers you,
>take it up with Giwer. It doesn’t bother me at all.

>> Did you collaborate with Jamie to come up with this?

>No I didn’t, but if Jamie wanted to collaborate with me on anything,
>all he needs to do is ask. I respect Jamie as a fine person, who knows
>more about what he’s talking about than most anybody posting.

>> How old are you?

>Think about it, Tommy, what difference does that make.

>> I mean your physical chronological age.

>I know what you mean, and if you can’t compute that one, better stay
>away from numbers all together. If the question had any relevance at
>all, I’d answer truthfully.

>> I already have an idea of how mature your ‘mind’ is.

>Sure you do! 🙂

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:17 PDT 1996
Article: 46786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:08:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 6:10:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:00:42 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>>>The polarization on this board here has to do with two themes: the
>>>>_extent_ of gassing as a means of execution, and the _intentionality_ of
>>>>the German Nazi program. My skepticism about the extent of either of
>>>>these positions has been clearly articulated. Since I, for one, have
>>>>neither the time nor the resources to settle either issue one way or the
>>>>other to my own complete satisfaction I have tended to shy away from these
>>>>issues. And my reward is to be accused of whitewashing.
>>
>>>No, your goal is to get the Nazi leadership off the hook. This is
>>>called Hitler washing. So you join David Irving in your quest.
>>
>> Why would anyone care if Hitler were gotten off of the hook?
>>
>> Nothing would change if he were.
>>
>> So why do you care?

>If I may, I will offer a parallel example to speak for itself:

> Why would anyone care if Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer were gotten
> off the hook?

> Nothing would change if they were.

That is quite correct.

> So why do you care?

I don’t.

>People are either responsible for their own actions or they are not.

For example, there are several “explanatory” productions about Dahmer.
They present him as driven by emotional and sexual problems. They even
recount his attempts to involve himself in religion and keep his life in
order.

I have heard coverage of those two cold blooded murders who killed their
parents and went on a spending spree.

Even the Unabomber has gotten a few “explanatory” words as to his
motivations while only barely mentioning his methods.

If you have heard any of these, can you point me to a similar commonly
available public presentation of Hitler? No, I do not mean something
you can dig up on Stormfront or a similar whacked out group.

If such a thing exists, I have missed it. I have seen quite a few about
Hitler over the years. They have focussed on either of two themes,
world conquest or antisemtism.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:18 PDT 1996
Article: 46787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:29:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 2:32:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56576 alt.revisionism:46787

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> When the message I respond to me contains an attack against me thus
>> deviating the from the serious debate that the holohuggers claim they
>> want then I will continue to respond in that manner.

>Attacks such as calling a woman “fatbroad”?
>
>Hmmm… looks like a bit of Pot. Kettle. Black here, Mr. Giwer.

That worked to instantly shut off her silly on me. So why not?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:41 PDT 1996
Article: 46793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to make eyewitness testimony credible
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:43:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:46:14 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># What you do is take a look at the layout of one of your LK.
># Then you find testimony that refers to its physical features
># or location.
>#
># As examples of things that will lend credence to your
># eyewitnesses are statements such as
>#
># “they were marched down the stairs and into the room”
>
>I posted such testimonies a few minutes ago.

I will be looking for it.

># “They were taken out behind the Kremas to the room for gassing.”
>
>About which Krema do you expect such testimony?

The layout of all of them are the same. You enter the gate and see the
Krema. The LK is behind it.

># “We loaded the bodies onto the elevator” or “we took them off
># of the elevator to the ovens.”
>
>Posted.

Again, looking for it.

># You need to find testimony that matches physical evidence
># in order to give it some credance.
>
>True, to an extent; but other witnesses may have simply not
>bothered to describe some of these details.

It is absolutely true. If they did not describe it you can not assume
they knew of it but did not mention it.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:42 PDT 1996
Article: 46794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revising the data, save the total
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:44:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:47:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>[…]

># Lets try it another way. In the old days there were 4M
># at A-B, 1.5M at Majdanek, 2M at Trebinka and 1M for the EG.
># That is 9.5M right there, but the number was 6M. Did no one
># notice this in the good old days?

>As noted here, many times, the estimates for the number of the
>non-Jewish victims *in the camps (mostly Auschwitz)* were inflated.

>BTW, re Treblinka, what is your source that the number “used to
>be 2 million”? Except for the testimony of the Ukrainian wachman,
>that is.

Several times I based a bone ash weight calculations on 2M. I was told
both time it was 800K. Which is correct?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:43 PDT 1996
Article: 46796 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:45:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:47:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>RuthSommer wrote:
>>>Subject: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
>>>From: [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
>>>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:01:27 -0400
>>>Message-ID:
>>>
>>>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>>>braggadocio about “controlling this conference” [1], and simultaneously
>>>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>>>a response is necessary…
>>
>>What I see from Matt Giwer’s posts are pretty reasonable.

> He lies. I have offered a wager of $1,000 payable to the 501(c)(3)
>organization of the winner’s choice that I can prove this to courtroom
>standards before a neutral arbiter of the American Arbitration
>Association.

> He has accused me of doing things I have not done. He has done the
>same to others. He has deceptively edited my posts in his
>responses, deleting text without warning and replying to a false and
>distorted version of my argument. He smears everyone for the actions of
>unknown persons. This is reasonable? You and I have very different
>definitions of the word.

>>But I do see a lot of vicious and hateful attacks on him. It’s possible
>>that now and then, after many such attacks, he might respond.

> And it’s possible that now and then, after being libeled by Mr. Giwer,
>some people might get vicious and hateful.

The first libel in any such exchange was against me in that I was called
without cause, both antisemitic and a nazi.

You folks are doing yeoman’s work attempting to appear as innocent lambs
these days.

What you do not appear to realize is that you trying to claim it to
peope who have experienced it first hand.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:44 PDT 1996
Article: 46801 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:45:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:48:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (ibokor) wrote:

>>[email protected] wrote:
>>:
>>: The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know it.
>>
>>”One you miss out on is one you never make up for.”
>>
>>I do believe you’re jealous!!!

>It appears that the troll is getting downright smutty. You must have
>really got him angry to cause this inane nonresponse.

>Good show!

If I were angry I would five sigs at once.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 19-20: 25.1% / 32.5%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:23:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 6:26:20 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:85 alt.revisionism:46806 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56592

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> “…we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
> revisionism. That is, make it useless to the hijackers.”
> – Matt Giwer, June 21, 1996

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly taken over alt.revisionism. With trolls,
>with insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word
>responses, with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point,
>he has buried the signal under an avalanche of noise.

>Nizkor wishes, and others wish, to be able to confront “revisionist”
>claims. Giwer’s aim is to make that impossible.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>and thus his success in monopolizing the group.

>Here are the statistics for June 19th and 20th:

> Total number of articles posted: 495

> Articles from Matt Giwer: 124 (25.1%)
> Articles mentioning Giwer: 161 (32.5%)

I missed a few. Sorry about that. I’ll try to do better.

> Articles per day from Giwer: 62
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 80.5

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46816 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:18:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 4:21:00 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
># The polarization on this board here has to do with two
># themes: the _extent_ of gassing as a means of execution,

>As you must know, the major reason for polarization on this
>board is that some posters (and I am not including you among
>them), think that Jews are sub-human scum and that Hitler was a
>great man, and some don’t. The rest follows from this.

It is good to see another example of what the holohuggers consider
reasoned and civil debate. The more they protest their innocense the
more they demonstrate their guilt.

>To answer your question, about half of the Jewish victims of
>Nazism died in gas chambers. The rest were shot or starved
>to death, mostly.

That is not an answer. It is a restatement of what is under discussion.

># and the _intentionality_ of the German Nazi program.

>What, exactly, does this mean? You mean perhaps “when was the
>decision made?”.

It means you folks can not provide any evidence of any gassing decision.

>Let me add a correction to your Maidanek figures. The 50,000
>number you give is only for Jews who died in the camp’s gas
>chambers. The total number of victims I have seen was given
>as 360,000; as I recall, many of them were Soviet POW’s.

What happened to the other 140,000 Jews who were not killed but did not
change the total either?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46820 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:29:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 6:31:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## We have to decide what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>
># What is it about physical evidence you do not understand?

>I don’t understand what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.

The same thing it means in court and in science. It does not mean
testimony.

>Explain it by supplying “physical evidence” that WW2 took place.
>This is not meant as a joke; I want to know what “revisionists”
>mean by “physical evidence”.

I am sticking to Dresden at this point to keep you from hopping around
to muddy the waters.

As to Dresden there exist the plans for the bombing. There are the bomb
camera pictures that trace by reel and flight number to the bombing that
shot the bombing itself. There are films of the results taken both from
the air and on the ground by the Allies and the Germans respectively.
When Dresden was liberated much of the fire damaged was still there and
observable. There were clearly missing buildings that had been there
for centuries.

And all of this documentation is clearly marked and connected to the
written master plan for the firebombing of Dresden.

What equivalent physical evidence do you folks have of gassing? And try
to keep in mind that gassing is all that is under discussion.

>## But, we are allowed to use “revisionist” type
>## arguments to question your evidence. We will very easily
>## “prove” that WW2 didn’t take place.
>
># Now do not try to change the issue. We are not talking proof,
># we are talking evidence.

>Evasion. Supply evidence and proof that WW2 happened. But we
>are allowed to question it using “revisionist” techniques. That’s
>the game. I think it’s fair enough.

As above both limited to Dresden and evidence NOT proof. There is a
difference, whether you understand it or not.

># But I do agree both your Dresden examples are in the same
># ridiculous category with your gassing stories.

>”Your gassing stories”… which of “your gassing stories”?

># All that has crumbled are testimonies.

>So you say. But you don’t decide.

Honest people can review them for themselves and decide for themselves.
I merely point out the problems with the stories.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 15:46:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:39:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 3:42:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Four months. That is not a little boy.
>>
>> >Good heavens, Mr. Giwer! I said only that the gas chambers were shut
>> >down before liberation, not that _transports to_ the camp ceased.
>> >If there were children at Auschwitz after the gassings ceased, then they
>> >ARRIVED at the camp after the end of October, 1944. It does not mean that
>> >they were born at the camp.
>>
>> Now you are saying those who talked about a show camp for families were
>> making it up just to paper over this unpleasant reality. Then we have
>> another claim that there were no Red Cross inspections at all. Here you
>> are claiming it was later shipments.
>>
>> Why don’t all you folks get together and find a single explanation
>> before you start trying to cover up these things?

>I have just posted an article on Red Cross inspections of the camps which
>addresses your questions about that topic. You seem to be confused about
>the issue here. You asked whether ALL children under 15 were gassed at
>Auschwitz. After Ehrlich606 said he’d seen a photo of a young boy and
>several infants at Auschwitz at the time of liberation, I pointed out
>that although the gas chambers were shut down before the camp closed,
>transports to Auschwitz continued. Even though it was no longer
>operating as an _extermination_ camp, it was still a _labor_ camp in the
>last 4 months of its existence. Therefore, the presence of some children
>at the time of liberation is immaterial to the policy of killing almost
>all children while the gas chambers were in operation.

It would appear then that you could produce as much documentation that
it was no longer an “extermination camp” at that time as you can provide
documentation that it ever was one.

Without that documentation you have pulled an explanation out of the
air, or you are repeating the creation of someone else.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 16:04:34 PDT 1996
Article: 34487 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historical Jesus
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:34:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 3:37:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:24048 alt.politics.white-power:34487 alt.discrimination:49417 alt.revisionism:46826

Bill Hoyt wrote:

>[email protected] (Paul Smithe) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>>Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>There is an excellent book on St. Paul that mentions a lot of this
>>material. I forget the name of the author. The book is entitled something
>>like St. Paul: Inventor of Christianity or something like that. I think
>>you can find it quite easily. The author is quite a scholar. Highly
>>recognized. His thesis is that Paul “stole” the religion from the original
>>Christians and painted it the way he wanted to. Paul’s “vision” was the
>>only contact he had with Jesus, and, as Paul says, “I am the least of the
>>Apostles.” Nonetheless, Paul was the most brilliant and influential.
>>
>Actually, one can find any number of books which propose this theory.
>Unfortunately, the theory was completely debunked by Gresham Machen of
>Princton in his 1925 work, “Origin of Paul’s Religion”. H. Ridderbos
>also smashed it in his 1958 “Paul and Jesus”.

>People seem to forget that portions of the New Testament were written by
>other disciples of Jesus, including two of his brothers, and Peter and
>John. There exists no evidence that I have seen that the disciples
>themselves contradicted anything Paul said, in fact, they visited Paul on
>several occasions (one is described in Galatians 2:11-6), and affirmed
>several areas in which his ministry differred from that to the Jews (Acts
>15).

>While Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus is apparently the only direct
>link he had to Jesus, he was in constant contact with the disciples until
>his death after 65ad, and there is no evidence that Paul’s religion was
>any different than theirs, exept for the emphasis on the Gentiles.

>It seems that while Paul was influential, he still recognized the
>authority of the “pillars” (James, John, and Peter), and cannot be
>arbitrarily separated from them.

And to accept this requires faith in the true word of the bible. It
requires one to ignore the fact that Paul’s writings are the only ones
where five of the seven appear to be written by the same person. One
notes that with the custom of the times, there was no signature and that
the only source of authorship is tradition.

Additionally one must ignore all the epistles that did not miraculously
appear on the table while the lights were out to be included in the
bible. As the Pauline approach had won at the time, it is hardly
surprising that contradictory epistles are not included in the bible.
It is not more surprising than that the mystical gospels are not
included.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:25 PDT 1996
Article: 46827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!info.usuhs.mil!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:46:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 9:49:48 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> A lot is made about these well designed Liechenkellers yet
>>there are some serious gaps in the arguement.
>>
>> The first is that as these were the first mass extermination
>>gas chambers no one knew how to design them. I would have
>>thought this to be the most obvious but none of the holohuggers
>>seem to realize this. Therefore what they declare as “obvious”
>>can be no more than first cut guesses without experimentation.
>>
>> That there was an engineering miracle of getting it right
>>the first time is a subject they will never address.

> What’s so hard?

> You need a way to dump Zyklon into the room. This is not a difficult
>problem.

Another of the things they got wrong was constantly requiring ladders to
do the pouring rather than simply slots in the walls.

> Doors with seals were nothing new – they had to do them for the
>delousing chambers, which were nothing new.

Some of the things they got clearly wrong were the three roof vents and
the incoming air inlets not being sealed. It is unclear why a door
needs be sealed where there are so many other ways for the gas to get
out.

> Putting some sort of bar or locking mechanism on the door was nothing
>new.

> Engineering to do ventilation systems and air exchange should have
>been nothing new, and this would be the hardest part to get right.

> What, you think there were no ventilation systems prior to 1943?

As you know, I pointed out that the air has to be preheated to above the
condensation point of HCN. As there is no mention of any such system,
they got that wrong. That left HCN condensed on the walls whenever the
outside air was below the condensation point.

>> Next we have people with no engineering or scientific
>>knowledge declaring they are correctly designed. That claim can
>>pass without further notice.

> They may not be as efficiently designed as possible. But as long as
>they work, they are correctly designed for acceptable values of
>”correctly.”

If your sole criteria for “correct” is a room with a door and a vent in
the roof then most any building will qualify as a gas chamber. But that
is not what is under discussion here.

What is under discussion is the claim that the LK were “obviously”
redesigned to gas chambers when the “obvious” features of it clearly
indicate no such thing.

>> The evidence that they were incorrectly designed, presuming
>>the currently popular L.Keller belief, is quite evident.
>>
>> First it had a ventilation system. At first glance that
>>appears to be something expected. Save there is a problem with
>>the condensation point of HCN, room temperature. But real room
>>temperature.
>>
>> If one simply uses external air for ventilation then if that
>>air is below room temperature the HCN is NOT ventilated but
>>condenses and “rains” out of the air. Not quite the process but
>>it collects on the walls, ceiling and floor. There is no
>>question of this happening.

> There is, of course, a question of the amount. I note that this
>question is not addressed.

Whatever is in the air. The only way to avoid that is by achieving
laminar flow but clearly the arrangement results in highly turbulent
flow.

> After that there is a question of the danger this amount poses. I
>note that this question is not addressed. As I asked in another thread,
>does HCN have evil intelligence that it latches onto walls, etc. for dear
>life so that it can lie in wait and suddenly zoom up the nose of the first
>person to walk into the room?

As you know from every day (or every winter) observation water condenses
on cold surfaces. It has to do with providing nucleation points for the
condensation. From there of course vapor pressure will release it again
when the air warms up again after the air flow stopping.

>> Thus even if the never reported gas masks were used

> They were reported for the chambers in IV and V, which did not have
>the high-capacity ventilation system of II and III.

The last I heard is that no one has ever found the fans for those
systems. Where do you get the high-capacity claim?

>>and if
>>all of the reports of eating and smoking by those removing the
>>bodies are not true, the next group of “exterminatees” that
>>enters the room start dropping like flies from the evaporation
>>from vapor pressure. Needless to say, this is not a reported
>>phenomenon.

> Needless to say, we would have to have condensation rates and
>re-evaporation rates in order to declare that this would happen. Oh,
>dear, there don’t seem to be any in Mr. Giwer’s post. Maybe those packets
>somehow got lost in transmission?

Similarly they are lacking from those who claim the buildings were
“obviously” modified to gas chambers.

I am pointing out that one simply does not look at a room and declare it
obvious. Yet that is all that has been done, particularly in the
absense of the ventilation systems.

>> More importantly, it points to these well designed gas
>>chambers being unusable in anything close to winter. And in
>>Poland there is a very lot more that is close to winter than in
>>the rest of the world.

> Oh, dear, still no rates and computations.

None by the obvious side.

>> There is one report that burning coke was brought into the
>>LKs to warm it up for the executions. That is a nice touch.
>>Given that it was there long enough to warm up the room and the
>>walls and floor and all let us continue.
>>
>> This heating process takes a lot of time to occur.

> Assertion. No documentation, rates, or computations. As usual.

Your game is transparent in that is all you have from those who claim it
is obvious.

> Remember to include the body heat of the people going in should you
>ever get around to providing rates and computations.

I will point out that US gas chambers are put at a slight negative
pressure before the pellets are dropped. Then heated air is pumped in
and at the same time forced exhaust occurs at a higher rate to maintain
that negative pressure and to keep it a gas. The vents exhaust some
20-30 feet in the air.

On the contrary we have three or so open vents about 4 feet off the
ground and one provision for incoming air and no hint of preheating it.

Further, “hermetic” is one of the strangest words in all the mass
execution story. Hermetic is used for steaming and both HCN and CO
gassing; noting that it is not needed in “steaming”, would be counter
productive in CO and where there are open vents when HCN is used.

It appears to be a buzz word tossed in to appear credible but has no
relation to any requirement or use.

>>This drastically reduces the available time for gassing.

> Assertion. No documentation, rates, or computations. As usual.

The first documentation would come from those who make the claim of
“obvious.” But they are incapable of even knowing there is something
they have to address before they can claim even, “potential.”

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:27 PDT 1996
Article: 46831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!info.usuhs.mil!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer’s spams?
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:46:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 9:49:55 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Nele) wrote:

>Over the last two weeks Mr. Giwer has more often than not replied posts with
>quotations completely irrelevant to what has been said. I do not trie to forbid
>him doing so, but I ask what his aim is. I have come to the point that I do not
>open any posts by Mr. Giwer, because I am almost sure that it is again one
>of these spams. Before Mr. Giwer has started doing so, I was quite interested
>in his contributions. But now… I wonder whether other people have come too
>to this. Does Mr. Giwer try to make everybody ignore him?

They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.

Do you have a problem with that?

Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:27 PDT 1996
Article: 46841 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:00:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 2:03:24 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>

>> >———————-
>> >Marty Kelley ([email protected])
>>
>> >”It would be such a relief to think the people in charge knew
>> >what they were doing, even if they were bent on mischief….[but]
>> >stupidity is far more important than conspiracy in determining
>> >man’s fate. Simple dumbness, along with luck, chance, and
>> >accident, runs well ahead of conspiracy in the causation category.”
>> > –Molly Ivins
>>
>> Ah, yes, the wit and wisdom of Molly “I am outraged” Ivins. Or would
>> the Nizkorites consider you to be spamming the same message over and
>> over?
>
>And when all else fails, Mr. Giwer mocks the sig line. Wassamatter, Giwer,
>couldn’t think of any other bullshit to spew?
>
>Oh yeah, don’t forget:
>
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>
>Sara

>–
>The only power available to you lies in your submission.
> Pete Townshend
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.”

— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:28 PDT 1996
Article: 46847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:41:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 8:43:43 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>Question:
> The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>is:

> A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

> B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>money.

Never suppose conspiracy where simple stupidity will suffice.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:29 PDT 1996
Article: 46848 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A gassing we will go, A gassing we will go, Hi Ho the Merryo
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:58:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 8:01:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Oh, what a smart title. If anyone had any doubts about Giwer’s
>alleged IQ of 163, they must have been removed!

>[Quote of a letter about the “gaswagons”, sent from August Becker to
>SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff]

>And now Giwer’s infantile comments:

># Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that
>#
># 1) the “gas leaking out” is no more dangerous than any auto
># exhaust
>#
># 2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized
>#
># and
>#
># 3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these
># trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of
># the Dannys I believe.)

>Und hier ve haf der dummkopf schwantz Matt Giwer not realizing that:

>1) An SS-man may have stood too close to the “gaswagen”, and was
> indeed affected by the exhaust. It *is* poison gas, after all;
> hence Becker’s warning. May seem a little too cautious, but he
> didn’t want the SS-men to take any risks. That makes perfect
> sense

A DOCTOR had to say that engine exhaust is dangerous? Who are you
trying to kid that people would not know that for themselves? There was
no one affected by it any more than any other engine exhaust.

>2) What difference does this make re Becker’s warning that people
> should not stand too close to the “gaswagon” while it was in
> operation? The question is also at what rate did the gas leak.

Exactly has fast as it went in, of course. What do you think? That the
vans had pressurzied chambers and that these engines could work against
back pressure like no other engines in the world?

It is just one more example of you not thinking thinks through, perhaps
simply not being able to think things through.

>I would add to 1 and 2 above the psychological factor; people were
>being murdered inside the “gaswagon”. It is obvious that someone
>would tend to be very cautious when giving suggestions as how to
>deal with a murder weapon, so as to minimize the danger to his men.

It was common auto exhaust, fool.

A more likely thing to have said was, “Sit down, this is going to take a
couple hours.”

>3) The letter suggesting to drill the vents was sent on June 5 1942.
> The Becker to Rauff letter, discussed above, was sent May 16 1942;
> that is, *before* the letter *suggesting* to drill the vents. Just
> the kind of thing a “revisionist scholar” would miss, even if he has
> an IQ of 163 and many, many, many years of experience in the REAL
> WORLD ™.

What kind of true believer would miss, as I said at the time, there was
no need for any vents in the first place?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:30 PDT 1996
Article: 46849 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 20:58:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 2:00:59 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>>In article , [email protected] (Howard
>>>Eisenberger) writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>To posit such an incredible and unsubstantiated interpretation of
>>>>contemporary society indicates either questionable motives or an
>>>>appaling lack of critical reasoning. I suppose you can take solace
>>>>in the fact that so many others are willing to share your illusion.
>>>
>>>No. Because to question the orthodoxy is to have your house firebombed.
>>>It is to be harrassed, to have acid thrown in your eyes, to be imprisoned,
>>>to be deported. To have your name forged on this board. To have your
>>>family harrassed through this board. It is a disgrace.

>>There is NO ONE I’m aware of who has harrassed your family on this board.
>>Oh! You learned this game from Giwer, eh, Ehrlich606?

>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts other
>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer’s family and
>son, was a concoction on *his* part. In other words, he lied through his
>teeth. (Oh yes–I still have the proof.)

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
[email protected]

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46851 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Extolls Ignorance
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 05:34:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]s.ibm.net> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 12:36:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>One of my sigs reads:

> Go to sleep without supper, but rise without debt.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] proves he has nothing worthwhile to offer by
>attacking this simple sentiment:

> Goat herder wisdom strikes again.

>Giwer ignorance strikes again! How many Jews were engaged in the
>cattle industry during the period when the Talmud was formulated?
>Or does Mr. Giwer think that Biblical Abraham wrote the Talmud?

When it has been posted. Did you not read it?

>Given his monumental ignorance, Mr. Giwer is clearly not qualified to
>comment on the wisdom of the Talmud or anything else.

It is not possible to comment upon what does not exist.

> Or perhaps it is Kwai Chang Caine speaking.

> Does anyone believe this idiot really exists?

>Which idiot is that? — Kwai Chang Caine or Matt Giwer?

You.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46854 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘NO Holocaust, NO Dresden, NO WW2, NO NOTHING!’
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 05:29:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 12:32:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>
>> This is one of the factors which make “Holocaust revisionism”
>> something which is devoid of any intellectual value. It is, very
>> simply, Nazi propaganda. What I can’t understand is why some
>> “revisionists” keep playing this stupid “I’m not a Nazi” game.
>>
>> You really think you’re fooling anyone?
>>

>He did. Your words prove it.

>Think about it.

You should start charging for lessons. That way they would respect you.

It was a fair fight though. Only about ten to one.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46855 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Katzie the Jammer Kid
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 05:25:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 12:28:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Harry Katz)
>writes:

>>Mr. Giwer’s sad attempt to bait me:
>>
>> A believer in goat herdering tribal wisdom.
>>
>>I guess that the concept of “kindness” is just too ancient and
>>archaic for a modern cosmopolitan like Mr. Giwer. But that should
>>come as no surprise from a man who rejects other archaic ethical
>>notions like truth, honesty, decency, and consideration.
>>
>>–

>Hey, Harry! Weren’t you the one with the crack about the broomstick
>you-know-where? You want to come again with the decency stuff?

Something about the how the Talmud says to treat Goyim I presume.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46856 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a surprise
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:26:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 7:29:08 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Laura Finsten wrote:
>>
>> >Keith Morrison wrote:
>> >>Richard Schultz wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> : The only thing they have not made pubic [sic] yet is the strategy session
>> >>> : they indulged in.
>> >
>> >>> Hey! This is a family newsgroup!
>>
>> >>No no no, he was talking about the bones in the pelvis,
>> >>weren’t you, Mr Giwer?
>>
>> >>By the way, figure out how many there are yet?
>>
>> >Or which ones normally fuse, and by what the fusions are complete, on average?
>> >And whether this differs for men and women?

>[blithering deleted]

blithering deleted. Further evidence that the extermiantionists are
only interested in free and open debate.

Some day they may post what they think debate consists of.

>I guess he hasn’t. I don’t know about Laura, but I’ll take that as
>an admission of error and subsequent idiocy.

Idiocy. Another example.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:33:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 8:35:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Granting that the discussion about diesel engines is something of a blind
>alley, to me at least, it is my understanding that HCN in carrier
>substances is still made, and even if it isn’t it was made for decades in
>Germany. BTW, the evaporation rate is supposed to be 37% of the existing
>volume every half hour at 20 degrees Centigrade, according to Rudolf.
>Crudely, that means 1/3, then 1/3 of 2/3, then 1/3 of 4/9, etc. for
>several hours.

>Therefore it shouldn’t be too difficult to establish the _entire_ range of
>carrier substances, their diameter, their composition (diatomite, wood,
>silica), whether or not the carrier was bleached and/or colored (with
>cobalt blue, for example). We could settle whether there was a
>correlation between lettering (Zyklon A, B, C, D, E) and carrier, and
>beyond that to the cost.

>I gather it is fairly well established that *Zyklon B* was _the_ form of
>HCN used by the SS. And it was widely used. Therefore we should have no
>problem, that is, if someone knew what they were doing.

Unfortunately, it is in the too hard category. The right way to do it
is to measure it. It isn’t the kind of thing I would do at home.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Anne Frank
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:36:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 8:39:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Revisited shall we say.

I was given the explanation for her being alive to leave Auschwitz was
that she was 15 and that everyone under that age was exterminated
immediately. Any record of anyone younger than that available?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:35 PDT 1996
Article: 46880 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.randomc.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 03:05:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:08:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>: >Whatever happened to the much longer (alleged) evaporation rates?
>: >
>: >Your fellow “revisionist”, Matt Giwer, who claims to have an
>: >IQ of 163 and numerous years of experience in the “real world”,
>: >gives 32 hours for a temperature of 5C and 6 hours for 30 C.
>:
>: Maybe it is six hours. Maybe it could be days or even months.

>Maybe it is ten years, or 3.5 millenia, or 12 microseconds. Does it
>ever cross your mind, Mr. Moran, to type into your rigii the simple
>little phrase “I don’t know”?

Did it ever occur to holohuggers to look at the reports and say that the
eyewitnesses did not know either? Proving of course that they were not
eyewitnesses.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:36 PDT 1996
Article: 46887 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-in.tiac.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:54:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 7:57:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46887 soc.history.what-if:11353

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

>> No historian questionned Broszat to ask ‘why suddenly the SS
>> confessions are wrong’, ‘why the witness are suddenly wrong?’,
>> this version was immediatelly accept, and no one asked Broszat why
>> the SS confessions and the witness of Auschwitz were more credible.
>> According to the letter written by Broszat in the context, it is
>> clear and net that he conceeded the gas chambers in all the old
>> Reich. However, since revisionnist started to question this Broszat
>> decision at the end of the 70’s, then suddenly the ‘hollohugers’
>> started to play with words: Dachau was mention, Bergen-Belsen,
>> Buchenwald but not Mathausen or some other camps. The concept of
>> ‘the old reich’ is sometimes stretchable, and thus we are told
>> that in Mathausen or the Hartheim’ castle there was a gas chamber.
>> In some other cases, when a revisionnist start to claim the the witness
>> of Buchenwald lied because of Wiesenthal’s book, than a subtility
>> is introduce between the existence of a gas chamber and an extermination
>> policy. There was no such subtility in Broszat declaration: he
>> talked about gas chambers, and he didn’t claim that Hartheim was used
>> or Mathausen. If he had start to play with subtilities, then his
>> position was impossible to maintain. This is not the case today:
>> the head staff of the US army which was there passed away
>> certanly.
>>
> I would be interested in what the eyewitness specialist Mr. Keren
>has to say about Mr. Beaulieu’s observations that any eyewitness
>testimony that stated that Dachau was a extermination camp had to be
>deleted from the list of Holocaust facts along with the camp itself.
>
> In other words, if it was eyewitness testimony that created the
>Dachau extermination center, and Dachau was subsequently recognized as
>not being what the eyewitness testimony said it was, then it would
>follow that the eyewitness testimonies were lies.

> We would have to then turn our attention over to Auschwitz, as
>Mr.Beaulieu has observed, as to the testimony that paints a picture of
>that camp being a extermination center.

> Really, should one recognize the testimony of one and reject that
>of the other. Would this mean that all the testimony for the Auschwitz
>claims are correct and all those for Dachau are false?

The difference, of course, is accessability. The more people can get a
look at the “gas chambers” the harder it is to maintain the fiction.

It is a matter of time before the only gassings took place at Treblinka,
the one that one one can see.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:37 PDT 1996
Article: 46892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:21:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 8:24:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>>>
>>>> It would seem that if someone claims they had lost 120, 160
>>>>or more relatives in the Holocaust, that some of them must have been
>>>>sondercommandos who performed most of the grizzly deeds of the
>>>>extermiantion process, such as, shoving the victims into gas chambers,
>>>>pulling the teeth out of dead bodies, cutting their stomachs open in
>>>>search of swallowed valuables, stuffing the remains into ovens,
>>>>tossing them into firey pits.
>>>>
>>>> The story has it there were those firey pits, and four
>>>>extermination facilities. The story has it these sondercommands were
>>>>killed every two weeks or so and then a new batch was brought in. This
>>>>would be, say 200 or so every two weeks, times say, 100+ two week
>>>>periods, being 20,000+ altogether.
>>>>
>>>> The odds are …?
>>>
>>> Well, if there were 6,000,000 Jewish victims of the Holocaust and
>>> 20,000 were sondercommandos then that is about .33 percent or one in
>>> 300. So, without knowing any more about the person who lost 120 to 160
>>> relatives we would estimate that it is much less than 50/50 odds that
>>> one of them was a sondercommando.
>>>
>> Then you are saying that all 6,000,000 were put to death in the
>>”extermination camps”?

> No, I am saying that if a Jew had 120 or 160 relatives die in the
> Holocaust that they came from a pool of 6,000,000 or so. I am not
> saying anything about how they died in first the sentence above.

> Lets use Yale as an example. All he has told us is that his relatives
> died in the Holocaust. He hasn’t told us how they died (or if he did,
> I dont recall him doing so.) If he told us that they all died by
> gassing in the extermination camps, then the pool we would work from
> would be about 3,000,000 Jews. And the odds calculated would change.

> Tommy, you have had problems with much simpler math than this, so I
> don’t really expect that you are going to follow all this logic.

Rather the point is that if he has a brother both can claim to have lost
160 relatives. If fact if he has children and grandchildren they can
all claim to have lost 160 relatives. This drastically exaggerates the
impression when so many talk about so many [of the same] relatives.

On the other hand no matter how you cut it, the real average is between
one and two lost relatives per survivor in the summer of 1945 and
nothing else.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Laughing so hard
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:50:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 8:53:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Unless I am mistaken, revisionists are not asking for historical proofs. What they are asking for is proof
>> that a specific crime has occurred….not blueprints which do not indicate gas chambers..nor quotes
>> from questionable or controversial documents, nor conflicting eye-witness reports .They seem to be
>> demanding evidence of the actual rooms replete with deep traces of cyanide staining, as well as
>> physical evidence of mass cremations..

>Supplied in massive quantities. So?

No physical evidence that I have seen presented on this NG. Perhaps you
could repost what you think you found?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:39 PDT 1996
Article: 46902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:19:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:22:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>What is it about Nizkor that has the deniers all in a tizzy? They don’t
>miss a chance to put it down, yet they can’t stop talking about it.

>Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this.

>Nizkor archives just about everything you ever wanted to know about the
>Holocaust. It doesn’t take too much use of it to realize that the
>overwhelming proof of its historicity is there for all to see, unedited and
>unexpurgated. Once one is able to see that, it becomes quickly apparent
>what mental midgets and losers the deniers are. It becomes clear that they
>are either power hungry life-losers or anti-Semites, or both. Nizkor
>doesn’t preach; it teaches.

>Deniers hate this because the Nizkor folks have the guts to let the
>documents speak for themselves. And they know that reasonable people will
>quickly be able to assess the evidence and draw their own conclusions. They
>know that most reasonable people will realize that the Holocaust happened
>and the denier-scum are just that. And deniers hate that. Why? Because
>they proceed by selective “production” of documents, so their docile
>followers won’t be exposed to the truth. They practice censorship,
>alteration of documents, lies, pretending that information clearly available
>doesn’t exist and other spineless chicanery. And Nizkor puts all that
>naught.

>Imagine. Free access to the source documents, with no bowdlerism and no
>censorship.

Who ever gave you the idea there was no censorship?

There is you know.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:03:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]9.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:06:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>>In fact, Pfannenstiel said the same thing as Gerstein: the same
>>>barracks, the same number of gass chambers, the same name of
>>>’Heckenholt Foundation’, the same David’s star, the same preparations,
>>>and even the same screams. The same silence. The same buries with
>>>gasses exhausting.

>>>But even in 63, as he certainly knew that Gerstein was dead, he told
>>>**in private** to Rassinier (a well-known, in a some manner the father
>>>of the french revisionism) that all the victims were killed in fifteen
>>>minutes. I can even imagine that Rassinier tortured him to say that.
>>>But Rassinier quoted this testimony in his narrow readership book,
>>>almost at this time (“Le drame des juifs europeens”) and certified
>>>what it was been told, with the classical reserve “testis unus, testis
>>>nullus”.

>>>Do you always understand nothing ?

>> It is not clear what you are saying as you are leaving out the date of
>>when it was first said and where that is documented. It is also unclear
>>where the contents of a private conversation are recorded.

>It is clear: 1963. Rassinier himself wrote in his book what
>Pfannenstiel told to him in 63, in private. Since Rassinier was a well
>known revisionnist, and remains famous as the former French
>revisionist, we can imagine that he didn’t lie about this.

>ALL above is drawn of the book of Rassinier (“Le drame des juifs
>europeens”), as said by Pfannenstiel in 63. Rassinier said him that
>Pfannenstiel was in good faith, but “testis unus, testis nullus”. A
>little short argument as Pfannenstiel said he personnally witnessed
>the gassing, as it is consistent with Gerstein, no ?

Now that your 63 makes sense it appears you are talking about some sort
of never published admission by the admittor. In such an emotion
charged environment, I regret that I can give little credence to that.

First off the fifteen minute time frame remains ridiculous.

Second private communications remain exactly that and without
corroboration.

It reminds me of the famous deathbed recantations of evolution by
Darwin. The only person who knew of it was not in England at the time.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 46910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New whopper of the week: Negroes invented Fire!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 03:07:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31CD1[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:10:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:24076 alt.politics.white-power:34525 alt.revisionism:46910

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Alexander Baron wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]> [email protected] “Chuck Ferree” writes:
>>
>> >> Racist too, boy you’re some fellow human being.

>The Baron that is!

>> >>
>> >> Same for you Baron, if you can prove your claim, do so, if not. I win.
>> >> How’s the Queen?

>Answer the questions, Baron. Don’t start another argument. Just answer
>the questions.

>clips
>>
>> >Racist? , Chuck. If you have evidence of a written Negro language, please
>> >adduce it.

>”ADDUCE IT!” Adduce it? what the hell kind of words you gonna use on
>me? If I don’t understand your demands, I’m stuck with what I have and
>so are you.

>Can you read ZULU? You turkey!
>>
>> >–
>> >Alexander Baron
>>
>> And after he produces that … Sorry but the universe will have
>> expereineced heat death by then.

>Well, I certainly hope so.
>Chuck
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 46911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:51:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:53:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>
>># There were also huge numbers of corpses that had to be burned,
>># and they were burned in large pyres in the street. It took
>># several weeks to burn them all. Photographs are around.
>>
>>I understand that these photographs show that the corpses were
>>burned in rather the same manner corpses of victims in some
>>death camps were burned, is that correct?
>>
>>But “revisionists” (notably Al Baron) repeatedly claim that
>>it is impossible to burn corpses that way.

>Also, the revisionists would claim that the photos were not photos of
>what you think they were. They were actually people who dies from
>disease. Besides who took these photos? They could be forgeries.
>Also, where are the records of shipping enough wood into the streets to
>burn all of these bodies?

Get with the program. Keren is now DENYING he ever claimed they were
evidence of people who died by being burned alive.

You folks have to learn to get your stories straight before you post.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 46913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:43:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 9:45:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>[email protected] (Greg Raven) writes:
>>
>>Greg Raven, who admires Hitler and writes that he was a “great
>>man”, and “the best thing that could have happened to Germany”,
>>says:
>>
>># Or did someone post proof for the existence of a Nazi gas
>># chamber when I wasn’t looking?
>>
>>There’s a new game now. You have to prove that Dresden was
>>bombed, or that WW2 happened. And we are allowed to use
>>”revisionist” type arguments used to question the gas chambers,
>>to question your proofs.
>>
>>Go ahead.

>But to answer Mr. Raven’s question: Krema I at Auschwitz, although
>reconstructed, was a gas chamber. Kremas II-V at Birkenau were gas
>chambers.

If these were in fact gas chambers why was there no provision for
preheating the incoming air to exhaust the gas? Without that any
outside air below its condensation point (lots of it in Poland) causes
it to condense out of the air and onto the walls and bodies.

Or is one of our favorite chemists going to play games again?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:44 PDT 1996
Article: 46914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:44:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 9:46:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you don’t count the lies, refusals to post documentation, etc.
>>
>> > All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG. It is up to
>> >*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>> >balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.
>>
>> Much of it is doubtful. I want to go back and check the full context
>> to see if some of it is not really testimony. Carlos Porter pulled things

>I kept telling you, and still do: MATT GIWER IS A TROLL.

>Facts have nothing to do with the situation, intellectual integrity has
>nothing to do with the situation, NADA!

>Even his crowing about being a troll is a troll!!!

>There is a way to nuke him, but not this way!

Why do you not explain the method? Or better yet, demonstrate it?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 03:33:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:36:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>Keith Morrison wrote:

>>>Not silicon based, Mr Giwer. Only a scientific ignoramus would
>>>assume that because the skeleton is based on silicon the entire
>>>organism must be. Oh sorry, it was you who assumed it. Silly
>>>of me.

>>>(To summarize, diatom skeletons are composed of amorphous silicon
>>>dioxide, glass).

>> And you don’t even know why.

>> Amazing how many people fall for the easy ones.

>Amazing to see how a denier can deny very well-known datas.

>Some diatoms are still living, Mr Giwer. These diatoms are carefully
>studied. Do you want a classification of these? their skeleton is
>made of quartz-alpha. The role of the diatoms in the training of
>sediments is also very well known.

>The intact skeletons remains of diatoms are found under the form of
>Kieselguhr and Tripoli. Does this name of Kieselguhr recall you
>something?

And do you want to claim that living diatoms have skeletons of silicon?

This is getting rich.

I have one person admitting being caught and bitching about being caught
and another still insisting upon silicon.

Here is a hint. Did you ever hear of fossilization?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 03:04:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:07:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:

>[About the evaporation rate of HCN from Zyklon]

># Maybe it is six hours. Maybe it could be days or even months.

>Wow! I mean, talk about exact scientific statements! He’s giving
>a range between “six hours” and “months”! Oh, the wonders of
>”revisionist science”!

As we have real true reports of death being anything from instantaneous
to two days I don’t see your point in this one. It is all a question
about what is meant by a safe level for handling.

>This is what you wrote a while ago:

># It seems that it should be a whole lot less, considering that the
># agent was designed to maintain a release over a 24 hour period.

>Well, you *used* to support a 24 hour release period. It seems you
>now realise how idiotic your claim was, and you don’t repeat it. Good.
>Maybe, unlike the Giwer, you can learn something.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

># I would say at least 95% of it would emit in the first two to three
># hours. Whatever, ten minutes, the amount of time to exterminate, is
># 1/12 of the HCN.

>You obviously cannot understand very basic arithmetic. If all of
>it does indeed evaporate in two hours, it does not mean that the
>amount that evaporates in the first 10 minutes and the last 10
>minutes is identical, and dividing by 12 is false. It would result
>in 1/4 of the HCN being released in 30 minutes, while Dr. Peters
>gives a much higher figure.

>But, anyway, we have from Dr. Peters’ book that the largest part
>evaporates within half-an-hour. This is roughly the time given till
>the gas chambers were opened.

Yep, the half life. You demonstrated 6-12 hours. In the technical
translation as I remember “the largest part” is a term meaning half of
it. If you can find a different technical translation, please post it.

># This would mean that 90% would be left over after the intended use,
># which would make Zyklon B a rediculous choice.

>Not only is the figure totally false, so is the assumption guiding
>your argument. Technically, there was nothing ridiculous about using
>Zyklon; it was a very cheap, very available, very simple means for
>mass murder.

Perhaps so if one would design the places to use it in line with its
physical properties. But then you only know applied math and nothing of
science.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46931 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rampant Irony Deficiency Alert
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:27:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:30:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, mg*[email protected]*x.netcom.com wrote:

>>
>> The folks complaining about appropriate posts and spamming and the like
>>are engaging in a debate on operating systems right here and completely
>>off topic.

>Poor little troll, so irony-challenged and jealous!

>hro

Nice try, fatbroad.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:55:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:57:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>In article Daniel Keren wrote:
>>The “revisionist argument” was summed up by one of the
>>”revisionists” who was honest enough:
>>
>>

>Mr. Keren, your hatred has blinded you. Your stereotyping and
>group-association is what I would have hoped that you stood most
>strongly against. To condemn all revisionists because Milton Kleim
>is a Neo-Nazi is ludicrous. It is this type of group-think and
>bigotry that allowed Nazism to occur in the first place. You need
>to step back and make sure that you are not becoming that which you
>most despise. Why not ask Mr. Garaudy if he too is a Nazi?

>This argument is the old and tired one which has no real viability
>on alt.revisionism. This is not part of a discussion of
>revisionism. It is old fashioned name-calling. Can you discuss
>revisionism and ideas without using the word Nazi? I wonder.

But I will point out that when I use the same method, to accuse all
exterminationists because of the acts of a few, they suddenly realize
there is a problem with doing that. Further, they accuse me of being
the first to do it.

I find them amusing in their braindead hatred.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 46937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:12:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:15:05 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:398797 alt.politics.libertarian:179619 alt.politics.democrats.d:91658 alt.politics.usa.republican:224620 alt.politics.usa.congress:47195 alt.politics.reform:78419 alt.activism:57736 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328889 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:26321 alt.revisionism:46937

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> As you know, it is simply putting the burden of proof
> upon you…

>Mr. Giwer is always pleasec to place the buirden of proof on someone
>else — anyone else! — just so long as it is not on him.

> …if you wish to be the first to claim there was.

>On the contrary, Mr. Giwer is the first to claim there was no
>harassment of Jews by the Nazi Party prior to the failed boycott of
>German goods.

That is completely false. I said there was no harrassment prior to the
World Jewish Congress declaring a permanent economic boycott upon
Germany solely based upon Nazi rhetoric. But you know that.

> The currently accepted…

>By Mr. Giwer! Mr. Giwer believes his ignorance is gospel.

> …first date of any harrassment is a one day boycott conducted
> on week after the permanent boycott started.

> Now if you wish to revise that date please be the first.

>I do not wish to revise anything. I merely wish to point out that
>the burden of proof is on Mr. Giwer, as the currently accepted truth
>(by every qualified historian — not by Mr. Giwer!) is that the Nazis
>began to harass Jews even before they managed to sieze state power.

As I have said, there was none. There are zero recorded events. SWC
reports the first to be the one day boycott of Jewish merchants. I have
said nothing other than accepted history. Particularly accepted by the
SWC.

>–
>Harry Katz

>He who raises a hand against a fellow man, even if he injure him not,
>is called wicked.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

The wit and wisdom of goat herding tribesmen.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Studies IV: The Nazi Concentration Camps (1/4)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:54:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:57:27 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs.camps.01
>Last-modified: 1996/06/23

> THE NAZI CONCENTRATION
> CAMPS

> Structure and Aims * The Image of the Prisoner
> The Jews in the Camps

> PROCEEDINGS OF THE FOURTH YAD VASHEM
> INTERNATIONAL HISTORICAL CONFERENCE

> Jerusalem, January 1980
> YAD VASHEM
> JERUSALEM 1984

Ah yes. An unbiased and neutral source.

Posted for spamming purposes only.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46942 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!con-nntp-gw!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!coopnews.coop.net!linden.fortnet.org!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!CTCnet!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Schoedel lies about H*uber
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:54:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:57:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46942 alt.politics.white-power:34530

[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:

>On 21 Jun 1996 05:03:49 GMT, “Ronald C. Schoedel”
> wrote:

>>K*n McOyV*y, in titling this post, is inciting to violence. This is
>>against our laws here in the USA, K*nny, just in case you didn’t know.
>>
>>Is there any special reason you have called for violence against Mr.
>>Huber, McV*y?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Rev. Ron
>>
>>http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel
>>
>Mr. McVay has repeatedly asked H*ber, or rather the most
>current knuckle dragger who is at the keyboard, to respond to
>questions concerning past H*ber posts. You on the other hand have
>titled your question to incite hatred against H*ber, thus schoedel
>should be called to task for this despicable act. I would ask the
>queston of schoedel, is there any special reason you are calling for
>violence against H*ber??

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:00:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:02:39 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>[snip]

>> The polarization on this board here has to do with two themes: the
>> _extent_ of gassing as a means of execution, and the _intentionality_ of
>> the German Nazi program. My skepticism about the extent of either of
>> these positions has been clearly articulated. Since I, for one, have
>> neither the time nor the resources to settle either issue one way or the
>> other to my own complete satisfaction I have tended to shy away from these
>> issues. And my reward is to be accused of whitewashing.
>>
>> While we are on the subject, however, I would like someone to explain to
>> me when it was decided that the death toll at Majdanek (which supposedly
>> used Zyklon B) should be lowered from 1.5 million to 50,000. I say this
>> because Alex Werth (*Russia at War*, 1960), and Lucy Dawidowicz (*War
>> Against the Jews*, 1974) both cite the higher number. These kinds of
>> changes are among the reasons why people become skeptical in re the entire
>> *Gas Chamber Controversy* in the first place.

>Bull pucky. As _you_ well know, Ehrlich606, the various estimates often
>used to tally the death toll of the camps- and the Holocuast -are by
>nature imprecise.

Then how do you explain the total never changing and, without the
benefit of historians, having been known since 1946?

Does this imprecision cause people to “become skeptical
>in re the entire *Gas Chamber Controversy* in the first place?” I would
>argue that no, it does not. Those who are “skeptical” did not, I would
>further argue, become skeptics because of _their_ lack of comprehending
>statistics and the imprecision of said estimates. If it were, such people
>would quickly be absolved of their “skepticism” by a rather easy education
>regarding the facts and circumstances of such issues. Rather, such
>”skepticism,” as you put it, is nothing more than a chimera. A fiction
>that allows one to mask one’s prejudices behind the rubric of
>”intellectual inquiry.” This has been evidenced in _this_ forum time and
>time again. For example, with appeals to “reason” including or follwed by
>phrases like the “entire *Gas Chamber Controversy*.” There is no
>”controversy” in regards to the role ans scope homicidal gas chambers
>played in the Holocaust amongst mainstream histoprians. The only
>”controversy” her is an artifical one instigated and supported by those
>with ulterior motives- Holocaust deniers.

As to skepticism, I have posted more reductions in numbers than are
currently claimed as the total but the total never changed.

Why is that?

>As to your inferences regarding the death toll at Majdanek, what _is_ your
>point, really? That Dawidowicz (incorrectly IMO) cites a death toll of
>1,380,000 (_War Against the Jews_, p.149.) that there is a “controversy”
>regarding homicidal gas chambers? (Other than _your_ imprecise attribution
>of “1.5 million.”) Or that Hillberg (incorrectly IMO) cites only “tens of
>thousands” as the death toll at Majdanek? (_The Destruction of the
>European Jews_, Table 78, p.572.)

>What exactly is the “controversy” regarding homicidal gas chambers here?

There is no physical evidence of their existance. Is that not enough
for you?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46947 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Start At Square One
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:20:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:23:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>
>>
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Something that would be very helpful is to start collecting all the
>>>eyewitness accounts to gassings at all locations. I seem to recall there
>>>are maybe 200 or so, including testimony of former SS in post war trials.
>>
>> This is definitley one of the things that can kill the myth the
>>fastest. The inconsitencies in testimonies. Say you have 200 accounts
>>and there are a hundred inconsistencies – which ones are true? Theres
>>no way of telling. The only thing that is left is the obvilous. That
>>many are lies.
>
>Daniel Keren continues to reprint testimony about the gassings and cremations–
>from former SS guards, political prisoners and others. While organizing
>such a file and making it conveniently accessible would take time, it seems
>worthy to me. But why stop there? Since testimony is only one dimension ofa
>proof, why not include material and documentary evidence that the Nazis them-
>selves left behind? Then we will have a truly comprehensive archive of this
>brutally efficient tool in the Nazi program of extermination. Moran’s doubts
>would be laid to rest as well.

You are invited to present any documentary evidence left behind. Please
be the first to do so.

>And anyway, hasn’t Nizkor shouldered too much of the archival work already?

You mean the solid evidence that professional exterminators did the
delousing at Auschwitz?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46950 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Katzie the Jammer Kid
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:44:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:47:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whined:

> But you know that is what holohuggers are like.

>I replied:

> Yes, we are like convenient whipping boys who allow Mr. Giwer to
> flog his various neuroses and psychoses in public.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines again:

> But we all know what holohuggers are like.

>Yes, we are like convenient whipping boys who allow Mr. Giwer to
>flog his various neuroses and psychoses in public.

>–
>Harry Katz

>From beginning to end God’s law teaches kindness.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

A believer in goat herdering tribal wisdom.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 46959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Abbé Pierre and The Sin of Revisionism
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:59:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:02:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Orest Slepokura) wrote:

>>The priest, who routinely tops opinion polls as France’s most popular
>>person for his selfless struggle for the least privileged, had been a
>>member of LICRA’s committee of honor for 20 years.

>>Tuesday Abbe Pierre, under fire from his Catholic superiors, Jewish groups
>>and many friends, said he condemned any attempts to play down the
>>”atrocious reality” of Hitler’s genocide of the Jews.

>Well, he said too that it was a sionist plot, and that the biblical
>Canaan’s massacre was the same as the Shoah,

Which is quite true and only one of many that were the same as the
Shoah. All of them make for good movies. Genocide is an old tradition.

then that the Jews have
>no special rights. He was proven that him freedom of speech,
>especially from his ‘Catholic superiors’, was never limited. He
>admitted himself that a few later.

>The Abbe Pierre was popular because he was fighting (during a long
>time, and that’s why he was a member of the LICRA) for the without
>roofs people. Nobody made a poll for him popularity since these
>speaches. But he looks as given very old upbringing.

There has not been one word of this in the US news that I have found so
I can not comment upon other than what has been posted here.

My comment is that if the lifetime work of a man can be destroyed for
speaking what he thinks then the power of what destroyed him must be
destroyed.

Ideas have their own power. If the Shoah is that powerful then the
Shoah must be destroyed.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 46961 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What “DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY?”
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:17:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:20:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>>
>>>>Revisionists – I thought I would share this recent article by Mr.
>>>>Grieb with the book. He has some fascinating insights.
>>
>>>>Pat Buchanan and the Diesel Exhaust Controversy
>>>>By Conrad Grieb
>>
>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>>
>>
>> And upon going there you find Stein, a man of not credentials in the
>>subject whatsoever.

> Appeal to authority, which Mr. Giwer has elsewhere identified as a
>fallacy. Note that Mr. Giwer has identified nothing wrong with the
>article. (Nor, come to think of it, has he identified his credentials in
>this area.)

Well taken. He posted an idiot response that had nothing to do with the
substance.

Feel better? Or are you the same Stein.

The message ends “continued” but that is not a link to the rest. What
ever that idiot Stein posted is forever lost.

> Of course, there is also Scott Mullins, who does.

>>Beyond that, he makes no technical points.

> I pointed out

You are the same Stein.

where Berg misread and misrepresented his sources,
>including the way in which the authors of the paper achieved high CO
>output. I also pointed out the shortcomings in Berg’s toxicology. “No
>technical points” indeed. References are cited, which is something Mr.
>Giwer is not noted for. He would rather make empty assertions Because!
>I! Say! So!

Go take a look, fool. If you ever made the points you claim it must be
in the unavailable “continued” section of the post.

In other words, your post is quite worthless as it has been truncated by
the brain dead idiots who claim to be webmasters. Take it up with them.

>> And thirdly, the is the kind of trash Nizkorites think is refutation.

> This is the kind of unsupported assertion, fallacious argument, and
>outright lying that Mr. Giwer hopes he can palm off as refutation. I
>invite Mr. Giwer or anyone to read the article and address any errors they
>think they can find. Mr. Giwer has identified none.

There is not enough of whatever you wrote posted to get beyond what is
clearly mere assertion by you.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Repents
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:48:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:50:42 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>I wrote:

> It is good to see that Mr. Giwer can recognize and support
> the truth ocassionally.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines:

> It is good to find a holohugger who still believes the
> steaming story.

> Now please explain to Keren that it really happened.
> He doesn’t believe it.

>Since Mr. Giwer posted this as the truth, he is the one who should be
>defending it. Or is he finally admitting that he does not care what
>he posts, truth or not?

>Mr. Giwer’s post concludes with another true episode:

> ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the
> seven entrances to the four-story house, with their tongues and
> lips. After those stairways were wased, the same people were
> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips.
> All garbage had to be transferred to one place in
> the courtyard. ”
> IMT VII – p.491.

>–
>Harry Katz

>Go to sleep without supper, but rise without debt.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

Goat herder wisdom strikes again.

Or perhaps it is Kwai Chang Caine speaking.

Does anyone believe this idiot really exists?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46971 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:43:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:46:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:06:22 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>I am amazed that no one has grasped the essential point of Dr.
>>>Rascher’s paragraph. No one claims that it proves that people were
>>>killed by poison gas at Dachau or even that combat gases of any kind
>>>were actually tested at Dachau. The essential point is that Rascher
>>>writes to Himmler to inform him that the facilities exist–the same
>>>facilities as are installed at Hartheim–which would make it possible
>>>to test such gases, i.e., a gas chamber.

>> The “i.e.” is your addition. Something exist that could be suitable for
>>such testing. I thought we had established that there is no such thing
>>as a generic gas chamber.

>What was Hartheim? What was the method used there to euthanize people?

>Feel free to post a “.sig” in response to a question you can’t answer.

If you were not playing coy I could answer.

But I will feel free to post a sig.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:42:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:44:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>[…]

>>>>>Then, of course, the Nazis used incineration pits, and of course, there
>>>>>was the proposed Krema VI….
>>>>
>>>> Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
>>>>admit you made it up. There were common trash incinerators around
>>
>>> Around Auschwitz? Large enough to accommodate a corpse? Of course
>>>you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever admit you made
>>>it up.
>>
>> It would be interesting to read your ideas of just how small the
>>incinerators would be in the equivalent of a city of 80,000.

> That’s right – I guess you don’t have landfill in Florida.

You have just bracketed your age. There were NO trash landfills before
the EPA got into banning incineration.

> I don’t know if they had any incinerators at all, as opposed to
>landfill or pit burning. If you can document the existence of any
>incinerators at Auschwitz at all, of any size, please do so.

What a juvenile. When you learn something get back to me.

What people have to realize is that we are faced with posts like this.
They seem to believe that there was no history before they were born and
that landfills were always the way things were done.

No matter how stupid that is, incineration was the preferred method up
until the EPA got the power to ban it. There were no landfills prior to
then. Incineration is cheaper. (speaking of bodies …)

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:02:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:05:28 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>>>Giwer:

>>Giwer’s still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

>Giwer who?

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:58 PDT 1996
Article: 46990 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: [email protected] (actually Danny)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: 29 Jun 1996 21:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Sender: [email protected] (Danny Mittleman)
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) writes…
>> [email protected] writes:
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>
>>
>> >Are you now claiming that you believe Anne Frank’s diary to be a hoax?
>> >In the past, I believe you had stated that you didn’t know. Please
>> >clarify your position on the authenticity of the _Diary_; I would also
>> >like to know why you think it’s a hoax (if you do).
>>
>> I said exactly what I said. That there was a plagarism settlement.
>
> There wasn’t.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I’m a troller, he’s a troller, wouldn’t you like to be a troller too?
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, hey, the Frank’s plagarized the diary.
Sure Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But his crime was no worse
than Herr Frank, dahling.”

–Hooterville Farmer’s Wife Lisa O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Scourge p.123

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46999 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:34:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 12:37:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46999 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56709

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, Giwer wrote:

> “He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly
> what they have been doing for years, monopolizing the
> conference and preventing any discussion of revisionism.”
>
>> Ken… can you translate “He were have…”? I’m afraid I’m
>> not as fluent in Giwerese.

>Hmmm. Perhaps. First, of course, we must examine the
>presumptions. The first is that there is a “Gang of Six.”

>The “Gang of Six” appears to have its roots in the number of
>people who have contributed to the Nizkor web. The problem, of
>course, is that there are _eight_ contributors listed, not
>six. This anomaly makes it difficult to know, with any degree
>of certainty, what is actually being said.

>What we _do_ know with certainty is that the Gang of Six is in
>fact the Gang of Eight. This implies that the speaker is
>experiencing a Full Hootch episode, which, as we have seen in
>the past, requires more critical examination.

>The first part of the phrase, given the error, must be
>translated as follows:
>
> “He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly

>”He were have my speaking of things about which I know not.”

>(What? You still don’t understand? Wait! It’s coming…)

>”He were have” is Full Hootch for “Here we have.” That much is
>known by Giwerundian Scholars. Therefore the initial statement
>must become “Here we have a man who does not speak from
>knowledge.” So far, so good. That yields the following:

> “Here we have a man who does not speak from knowledge,
> complaining about exactly what they have been doing for
> years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
> discussion of revisionism.”

>We must now correct the adjective, which is perhaps, along with the
>obvious lack of knowledge and general Full Hootch dementia,
>the real key to understanding this sample.

> “Here we have a man who does not speak from knowledge,
> complaining about exactly what he has been doing for
> years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
> discussion of revisionism.”

>Quite simple, really; it’s part of a Giwerundian Self-Examination
>Mantra. The speaker may have recently attended a Giwerundian
>Encounter Session, and the phrase may have stuck in his
>consciousness (in the G. sense) as being particularly
>helpful.

>>Of course, I have no idea what the “Gang of Six” is.

>An invention. At the time your sample initiated the phrase,
>there were Seven in the Gang of Eight, not Six.

>>Hmm… I’d love to see the list of names here.

>You will find the list of all those who were denied the right
>to speak here in the archives, where their, er, speaking, is
>recorded for posterity. These non-speaking speakers are part
>of the Gang of 4,000.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | Shofar FTP Archives
>———————–| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>An Electronic Holocaust| EAST: ftp://www.nizkor.eye.net/
>Education Network | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 05:33:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 12:37:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47000 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56710

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they have
>> been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
>> discussion of revisionism.
>
>Ken… can you translate “He were have…”? I’m afraid I’m not as fluent
>in Giwerese.
>>
>> Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal with
>> people who won’t believe what the Gang insists they must believe.
>
>Again, I need some parsing help here.
>>
>> Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as they
>> believe. And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
>> the NG.
>>

>Of course, I have no idea what the “Gang of Six” is.

>[snip]

>> It is of interest how many people I have found who will attest to this
>> gang behavior.
>>

>Hmm… I’d love to see the list of names here.

>> They have lost in a fair fight of about 10 to 1. And now they just
>> can’t deal with it.
>>
>> It is curious what they think an alt conference is all about.
>Well, I think it’s about open discussion and exchange of idas. Not ad
>hominem attacks and name-calling. That would exclude you right off the
>bat, Mr. Giwer.
>
>Sara

>–
>And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:00 PDT 1996
Article: 47002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:15:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:17:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > That seems to be your position, Matty-poo. The standards I posted are
>> >those *you* insist on in others.
>>
>> > Your objection seems to be that you doi not have to adhere to them.
>>
>> When do they start complying with those standards?
>>
>> Let me know when you see some. I might miss it.

> Of course, Matty poo. You seem to have missed, for example, my quotation of
>Lucius Clay denying that the the suspects in the Malmedy Massacre were physically tortured.

If you are referring to Gen. Lucian Clay please say so. Otherwise who
the fuck are you talking about.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:15:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:18:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>
>> > And who are you agreeing with. It can’t be Keren for he said the
>> >opposite. Is it your friend Jack Daniels? Or your other friend Jim Beam?
>
>> Character assassination is also one of those honest debate techniques
>> you folks claim to use.

> Sorry, Matty-poo, but the imbibing of various alcoholic beverages is not
>character assassination. Lying about people — which you do frequently — is. You
>have no more interest in “honest debating techniques” than my cat does in
>baroque music. You are dishonest and your pretense is shabby and transparent.

> If you can’t stand the heat, Matty-poo, stay out the kitchen.

> –YFE
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47005 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 06:14:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29 11:17:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56717 alt.revisionism:47005

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
>> >alt.revisionism and “make it useless” to everyone with whom he disagrees.
>> >He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
>> >volume. Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!
>>
>> Jamie boy, the lies of you holohuggers and this lie in particular have
>> been pointed out many times as has been your harrassment of my family.
>> Your repetition of this particular lie is not going to make it true.

>Once again, Mr. Giwer, you claim without evidence that your family has been
>harassed by more than one reader of this newsgroup. Who? When? This
>message indicates that you believe Mr. McCarthy has personally harrassed your
>family. Please post proof or retract this claim.

>———————-
>Marty Kelley ([email protected])

>”All that I care to know is that a man is a human being–
>that is enough for me; he can’t be any worse.”
> –Mark Twain

Everything was posted at the time it happened. There were also numerous
posts on the order of “it couldn’t happen to a nicer guy” in
alt.revisionism. There is no question of that.

It is what holohuggers are like. Wannabe JDL terrorists.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:03 PDT 1996
Article: 47009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 07:27:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 2:30:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>Someone posted:
>>Marty Kelley wrote:
>>>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, tom moran wrote:

>>>> After you have witnessed a number of idiotic ethnocentric, racist
>>>> and hateful murmurings by rabbis, it becomes evident where the rest of
>>>> the Hebrew community gets their stuff.
>>
>>>And your “proof” that all Jews think alike is…? If some rabbis are
>>>racists, does that therefore make all Jews racists?
>>
>>>If I quote some racist comments by “Christian” ministers, will you then
>>>argue that it’s reasonable to assume that all Christians agree?
>>
>> One of the most prominently know racists in modern times, Meier Kanahe
>>was defended by many Jews simply because he was Jewish. He even
>>organized a terrorist organization, the JDL, without receiving public
>>condemnation for doing so or condemnation of the organization save by
>>the US Defense Department which plays by its own rules not political
>>rules. (Morris Dees never heard of those organized terrorists.)

> I am not an expert on Kahane,

It would be desirable if you would become one before you claim you have
“killfiled” me again and you have learned from “YEF” one more time.

but I am under the impression that most
> of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him

Bullshit. Where were the open and public condemnations? There were
none.

He was Jewish. Distance but never condemn.

and that in the
> end his political party was declared illegal in Israel?

I am unaware that any free society short of the Nazis can declare any
political party illegal.

Am I correct
> in my recollections?

Yes. Israel is into suppressing suppressing political opinion.

Isn’t this – or actions like this – very
> different than Giwer’s suggestion that Kahane was defended or supported
> by the Jewish community?

I was speaking of the US and I presume Canada given what they were
permitted to do to Zundel.

> And, Tommy, isn’t the fact that there was a split over Kahane’s views
> evidence that the Jewish community is not monolithic?

The very lack of open condemnation is approval.

Get over it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:04 PDT 1996
Article: 47010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Alec Grynspan
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 07:30:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 2:33:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

You folks will note that despite many offers, Alec Grynspan, has
declined to respond to me directly.

You will note he claims to be able to deal with me directly and
personally and to have all of my secret techniques but there has been
not one post demonstrating that.

Alec, old buddy, please respond if you are ready.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:05 PDT 1996
Article: 47011 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 07:31:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 2:34:19 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >> Yes, indeed. However, we weren’t talking about public familiarity–
>> >> we were talking about invention. You claimed that magnetic tape wasn’t
>> >> invented until the 50’s, presumably as a ploy to discredit certain tapes
>> >> which have been presented to counter revisionist nonsense. That was either
>> >> a lie or an indication of ignorance; magnetic tape was invented in the early
>> >> 30s and was widely used for propaganda purposes by the Nazi government.
>> >> You’re caught, Huber. Give it up.
>>
>> >And it’s not even an original lie. The Troll went over this ground
>> >a few months ago.
>>
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: When I said it
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)

>[snip]

>Oh, wonderful rebuttal. God, I just feel so
>terrible how you stood up, stated the facts and proved me wrong
>for calling you a liar.

>

>–
>Keith Morrison
>[email protected]
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:05 PDT 1996
Article: 47040 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: She’s Back
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:56:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 2:59:26 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> Things have changed a bit, to wit …
>>
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
>>
>>
>> ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>> entrances to the four-story
>> house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
>> the same people were
>> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>> had to be transferred to one
>> place in the courtyard. ”
>> IMT VII – p.491.
>
>Okay. Thanks for posting this further example of the inhumanity and
>brutality of the SS.
>
>What was your purpose in doing so?

To show that holohuggers like you will believe anything. You are so
gullible.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:06 PDT 1996
Article: 47064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:00:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30 3:04:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > Consider using a better brand of deodorant.
>
>> Consider reviewing the Pennsylvania Bar ethical standards.

> I did. They contain no reference to deoderants.

How about references to misrepresenting the law in public and in
private?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:35:07 PDT 1996
Article: 47100 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N’burg
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:43:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 2:46:05 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (SF924) wrote:

>[snip]

>> In a criminal case, it is basic trial strategy to attack the prosecution
>> case, if possible, based upon evidence of fraud or tampered evidence. Had
>> these defendants been able to make even a colorable case that the evidence
>> of the gas chambers was doctored or falacious, it is doubtful that the
>> Nuremburg defendants would have been hanged, certainly not Franck,
>> Seyss-Inquart and possibly Kaltenbrunner.

>Frank? He most certainly would have been hanged. “…The evidence
>established that this [Frank’s] occupation policy was based on the
>complete destruction of Poland as anational entity, and a ruthless
>exploitation of its human and economic resources for the German war
>effort… Frank was a willing and knowing participant in the use of
>terrorism in Poland; in the economic exploitation of Poland in a way which
>lead to the death by starvation of a large number of people; in the
>deportation to Germany as slave laborers of over a million Poles; and in a
>program involving the murder of at least 3 million Jews.” (_Nuremberg
>Diary_. p. 442.)

This exploitation claim is one of the most persistent pieces of nonsense
around. The war itself had cut off all foreign commerce and much
internal commerce for Poland. So what would have happened without
“exploitation”? Massive unemployment with the same attendant
starvation.

As to the national entity thing, that was not a crime until after the
war. And, in light of the history of Poland, applying such an idea to
that country is sort of a joke in the first place. And if you intend to
respond to some prewar agreement, you will find that those agreements
only applied between nations that were signatories to the agreement.

The use of the economic resources of a conquered country were similarly
prescribed (that is defined, not prohibited) in those same agreements
which again only applied to signatories to the agreements.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried
had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by
our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:30:31 PDT 1996
Article: 11410 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Let Matt Giwer Post!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:46:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 4:48:51 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Phil Edwards wrote:

>(Posted and mailed)

>Charles J. D. Mountel wrote:

>> From what I have been reading as of late, many
>> people do not agree with Mr. Giwer’s ideas (myself included). The way to
>> deal with this is not to launch insults and take up newsgroup space.
>> Simply argue the man down with facts, this should be simple enough.

>If only it were!

>I myself thought like this until I tried arguing with the guy myself. I
>rapidly discovered that he’s impervious to facts, oblivious of the rules
>of debate and indifferent to history. His only goal is to give greater
>currency to his beliefs (I don’t dignify them with the name of
>’argument’): that the Nazis were not _particularly_ evil or
>_particularly_ anti-semitic,

Not uniquely so in Europe at the time.

that there was no plan to murder the Jews of
>occupied Europe,

I have read the Wannsee Protocol which is supposed to be that plan but
it is not in there. Have you read it?

that Nazi anti-semitic measures were a proportionate
>response to Weizmann’s ‘declaration of war’,

That is not what I said, rather that, according to the Simon Wiesenthal
Center (www.wiesenthal.com (or .org)) the first anti-semitic act by the
Nazis was the [one day] boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany. I
pointed out that was a week after the worldwide and permanent boycott of
German goods and services and access to credit announced by Weizmann.

that the gas chambers were
>delousing chambers… in short, that there was no Holocaust.

That is jumping to a false conclusion. There were camps for people held
to be a danger to the security of Germany. There is nothing illegal
about that. You do remember the Nisei? Towards the end the Allies had
destroyed the transportation system for food and the power plants that
pumped the water.

>To this end he will post and keep right on posting, regardless of
>whatever factual or documentary evidence we can come up with, regardless
>of whether the arguments he constructs can be demolished. One more reply
>to Giwer just means one more post Giwer can reply to – and so it goes on.

>As for whether we should “let” Giwer post to s.h.w-i, I’m not aware of
>any way we can stop him. I think there are good reasons for making him
>aware he’s not welcome, however. Apart from anything else, most of his
>posts are wildly off-charter – the only Holocaust-revisionist “what-if” I
>can think of is “what if there _was_ a Holocaust?”. This question
>(off-charter in any case by virtue of treating real events as
>hypothetical) has been taken on by another refugee from alt.revisionism
>but not by Giwer – probably because it leads rapidly to the conclusion
>that things would look pretty much like they do now.

I have phrased the hypothesis several different ways to fit within the
NG and none of them appear to be acceptable. It is becoming clear that
people here do not know enough about what actually happened to discuss
the matter.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:30:32 PDT 1996
Article: 11411 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:50:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 4:53:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Robert Firth) wrote:

>In article [email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) writes:

>>> First off there is literally no physical evidence of gassing.

>>We have the buildings and the bodies. That suffices.

>Actually, we do *not* have the buildings. The gas chambers
>at Auschwitz are reconstructions built in the 1950s. there
>is ample evidence that they are accurate reconstructions, but
>with creatures like mgiwer it is wise not to leave any loophole
>for them to drive a myth through.

There is only ONE supposed gas chamber at Auschwitz.

It is clearly not “accurate” as no two descriptions of what it looked
like agree.

It is also poorly designed as it has no way to preheat the air to
ventilate it to prevent HCN condensation.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:15 PDT 1996
Article: 47154 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:09:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 3:12:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I see that Giwer continues to claim that running diesel
>engines under conditions that would result in making the
>exhaust more lethal, would also result in a great danger
>of explosion.

>We have two papers describing how engines were run under
>such conditions for a long time, with no explosion and
>no danger of explosion mentioned.

Of course you do. Why not post them? Be certain to post the one that
includes the use of an overhauled 1940s Russian diesel engine of unknown
maintenance history at least.

It is quite worthless to post papers that used lab quality research
engines.

>Giwer is totally irrational. But we know this. Look below.

You are an applied math type, not a scientist. Get over it.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:15 PDT 1996
Article: 47166 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:14:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]n5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:16:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Richard Widmann) writes:

># Mr. Keren, your hatred has blinded you.

>His fellow “revisionists” say that they would admire Hitler
>even if he would have killed 60 million Jews, they repeatedly
>spout racist propaganda that would make Streicher proud, and
>he says that “your hatred has blinded you”.

The issue is your idiot gassing stories. Whether Hitler is sainted in
heaven or rotting in hell, your idiot gassing stories are still idiotic.

No attempts as character assassination will change that. No attacks on
motivation will change that.

And it appears that nothing will change your inability to face that.

># Your stereotyping and group-association is what I would have hoped
># that you stood most strongly against. To condemn all revisionists
># because Milton Kleim is a Neo-Nazi is ludicrous.

>It’s not, of course, only Milton Kleim.

>”Holocaust revisionism” is a form of Nazism, plain and simple.
>It’s a continuation of the Nazi ideology, with the same intent
>and the same final goals. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

You are as blind and as stupid as Jews who worship the holocaust because
Jews were involved in it. If revisionism is nazism then orthodoxy is
Jewish. And both positions are equally transparently false.

And try to get it through your thick skull one more time. If Jews had
not been prevented from joining the Nazi party, there would have been
Jews hung for war crimes.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.ingr.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:40:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:43:18 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
># Subject: Another gas chamber
># From: [email protected]

>[Repost deleted]

>Just what do you find so odd about the description of the gas chamber?

># Danny boy, you are a fanatic. A religious zealot.

>”A religious zealot”? I am not even religious. I don’t follow
>any religious code.

Of course not. You have substituted the holocaust and Israel for
religion.

># You have not ability to think when it regards your devotion to
># Israel, that monument to religous superstition.

>What does this have to do with you being a genocidal maniac, who
>thinks that the US should have killed hundreds of thousands of
>Israeli civilians as a “punishment” for the erroneous attack
>on the USS Liberty?

Genocidal has nothing to do with Israel. It would have been a response
to an act of war by the nation of Israel. Why is you can not think of
Israel in other than Jewish terms?

Israel is a nation, not Jews. Get over it. When a nation commits an
act of war there is every right to respond with an act of war. It is
just that the US is not as powerless as Palestinians.

>There are other people who don’t think the attack was a mistake.

We know it is not a mistake.

>Ok. But do they think the US should have killed hundreds of thousands
>of Israeli civilians because of it?

What do you suggest should have been the response to this act of war? A
diplomatic protest followed by exoneration of the agressor?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:17 PDT 1996
Article: 47184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:43:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:45:52 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>The fact remains that the pelvis
>>> >and the skull are the bones most like to survive any form of
>cremation

>Not when Hitler does it.

I keep forgetting about that special method that permitted the bodies to
be burned without fuel.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47197 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:10:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:12:52 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >> Are you saying I did not know what I was talking about when I said
>> >> diatom skeletons were calcium based?
>>
>> >Either that or you lied. In the first case, you spoke without checking
>> >your data. In the second, you are a liar. Either negligent or a liar,
>> >take your pick.
>>
>> You folks get so pissed when you are suckered into uncritical response.
>> You did avoid refuting the clear statement that fumigation was not done
>> by camp personnel. I will give you that one.

>What are the hard parts of diatoms composed of, Mr Giwer? Please answer the
>question. By the by, I don’t remember commenting on fumigation. Might
>you provide a reference using DejaNews or another source to my article on
>the subject so I might refresh my memory?

Diatoms themselves, the substance is calcium based.

The clay is composed of the fossilized remains, primarily silicon based.

>No, I thought not.

Why did you think not?

>> >By the way, Mr Giwer, what are diatom shells made of?
>>
>> Diatoms do not have shells. The term you want is skeleton.

>What are diatom skeletons made of, Mr Giwer?

As above.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47199 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Postcards from Treblinka?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:30:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 4:33:24 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>I missed the beginning of this thread, but I recall it’s well-known
>>that the SS did force people to write these letters, and that they
>>were sent from places in the East, to mislead the victims.

>That is why I posted the Yad Vashem report, which, among other
>material, contains the following:

> “These transports arrived in passenger
> cars. Upon arrival they found an “ordinary” railway Station with
> signs pointing to ticket windows, tables indicating the departure
> times of trains to various destinations and other normal station
> installations — all, of course, fake. The alighting from the train
> was carried out in a polite and calm manner.

> “The camp personnel
> encouraged the arrivals to write postcards to their families and
> friends telling them that they had come to a labor camp; they were
> even given an address for receiving mail (those arriving in Sobibor
> were told to write Arbeitslager Wlodawa [Wlodawa Labor Camp]).

This clearly indicates their families were not Jewish. How strange.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:07:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:10:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(RuthSommer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> That reminds me. I went hunting the other day and shot a 400-pound
>> squirrel.He was HUGE. What, you doubt it? I can PROVE it. I will take
>> you to the actual tree where he was shot.

>And will RuthSommer, the witty H*berite, provide testimony from other
>squirrels and hunters as to her(?) hunting prowess?

Davy Crockett didn’t need that.

Will RuthSommer
>provide tons of self-incriminating documentation attesting to the killing
>of said squirrel? Will RuthSommer provide the intstrument of killing?
>Will RuthSommer provide photos of this squirrel carcass?

Perhaps she will tell you the river where the ashes were dumped.

Will RuthSommer
>provide forensic evidence of this squirrel carcass?

On unfound ashes?

>No? What then _does_ RuthSommer provide here? Why, nothing besides
>juvenile innuendo and psycho-rants it seems….

Good description of the gas lovers.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:50:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:53:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord McFee)
>wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
>>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
>>> implying that we is observant?” (Matt Giwer)

>>Mr. McVay, I am shocked. Here you are posting “raw” Giwerian without the
>>obligatory translation. Shame! Do you really think everyone in this
>>newsgroup understands Giwerian-Trollish as well as you do? Have a heart,
>>sir!

>Mr. McFee, how could you?! Did you not see the memo that advised that
>Mr. McVay, the world’s foremost expert on Giwerundish, has to date
>been unable to break the code of this particular passage – and that
>until such time as he has met this monumental challenge we are to make
>NO allusion whatsoever to the possibility that there might even be a
>translation. Shame on you, Mr. McFee! How on earth are we to
>maintain the secrecy of our noble conspiracy when there are traitors
>like you amongst us?

>hro

Wanna lick my steps, fatbroad?

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: [email protected]
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another curiosity
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:55:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 5:58:05 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>[email protected] writes:
>>>
>>># The last time I brought up a discrepency in total numbers,
>>># I was told that the Einstatzgruppen got over a million people.
>>>
>>>BTW, it’s “Einsatzgruppen”, not “Einstatzgruppen”.
>>>
>>># Was that in error?
>>>
>>>The lowest estimate for the number of victims of the
>>>Einsatzgruppen massacres I have seen is 900,000; this figure
>>>was given (actually, as a lower bound) by the “Institute For
>>>Contemporary History” in Munich.

>> It is good to see you agree that the editted out part of the holohugger
>>claim was nonsense. Thank you.

>I take it this means that Giwer accepts the 900,000 figure. Progress.

>Perhaps he accepts the shooting, but not the gassing?

I have stated the number I have been given.

I have also asked why there are such reports only from countries
liberated by the Soviets.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47220 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:30:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:32:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Another example. Dan Keren claims the SS made people write letters and
>postcards from locations where they would never go. Naturally, as with
>all of his posts, direct response is impossible. What is the proof of
>that assertion? The documentation at Steengracht’s trial, as well as the
>documentation for Kube’s tenure in Minsk, makes it clear that there were
>Western Jews who were in Russia long after the extermination camps were in
>full swing. What does that mean? I don’t know.

It means, since they were supposed to be writing to their families,
their Jewish families, that those people who were out to exterminate all
Jews obviously missed a few people even though they had their addresses
as receipt of those letters is part of the story.

It is a rather unexplainable thing to have happened.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 16:46:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:04:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 4:07:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>>
>> Revisited shall we say.
>>
>> I was given the explanation for her being alive to leave Auschwitz was
>>that she was 15 and that everyone under that age was exterminated
>>immediately. Any record of anyone younger than that available?

>The Diary… is a fraud, a hoax. In our local library, I have altered the
>index and cards to reflect the truth, ie, it is categorized as ‘fiction.’

I don’t think there is much question of it being a hoax. In fact back
when Alex Haley was paying off someone to shut up about the man’s book
being plagarized to be put into Roots, there was a mention of several
other such payoffs. One of which was the Diary.

Wish I had taken notes at the time.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 16:46:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47231 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Adolf Hitler was the greatest man who ever walked thi
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:07:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 6:10:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>Exactly what I knew he would say–nothing. What a pity it must be to be so
>bereft of intelligence, originality, courage.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.