Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p6

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:54 PDT 1996
Article: 45471 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Book available on Web
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:03:05 GMT
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (RuthSommer) writes:

># If Jews cannot value these freedoms, why don’t they just leave?
># They can always go and live in Cuba, or North Korea, can’t they?

>Cripes, nazi-boy, sure didn’t take you a long time to show us just
>what you were made of, did it? 🙂

What is Ruth-boy saying?

But pay very, very, very close attention, wabbit. There is NO LONGER
any automatic condemnation for saying Jew rather than predominantly Jew
in this conference.

You folks lost, remember?

># It’s a very good collection of essays and research studies done by
># revisionists on the Holocaust.

>Does it include all these fascinating claims supported by “revisionists”
>here, like the one about how it would have been impossible to cremate
>many corpses in Birkenau, because corpses may “explode” when inserted
>into a hot cremation furnace?

Rather that the liquid hitting the fire brick would cause differenential
expansion and damage them. But that is technical. You can not
understand.

>Or all these lies about how it takes “many hours” for enough HCN to
>evaporate from Zyklon-B to kill people?

>Or the lies about how “diesel exahust cannot kill anyone”?

>Or how people can defend themselves from cyanide gas by holding their
>breath?

>”Revisionists” have made all these claims, and many others as insane
>as these, on this group.

>Tell us more about the “very good collection of essays and research
>studies” you mention.

Or how about all the rest of your crap and bullshit that is no longer
central to this NG? Give it up. You lost. The old players are back in
force and do not like you folks from the last movie.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:54 PDT 1996
Article: 45472 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:47:23 GMT
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M
>Huber) said:

>>No one should be annoyed at being archived by N*tzkor. I personally
>>consider it validation of the truth, in that N*tz can’t come up with
>>logical proofs and rebuttal. Dr. Huber is there as justification of this
>>belief.

>Translation please?

Nizkor’s files are censored.

Someone just claimed to have run a context search of the files and could
not find either of the two references to Hoess being acquitted of
gassing in his first trial.

QED

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 45476 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:12:23 GMT
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:45:01 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On 18 Jun 1996 12:59:04 -0400, [email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>>Mattogno and Graf came across what they refer to only as a highly
>>>>interesting document in the Soviet archives in Moscow regarding this (or
>>>>these) cellars that they say will shed light on the meaning of the letter.
>>>> Should be published in 1997, perhaps sooner.
>>
>>>Is this the same Carlo Mattagno who purports to refute Pressac’s
>>>analysis of the Birkenau crematoria by using reference works on
>>>crematory thermodynamics *all* of which predate the Volckmann-Ludwig
>>>design which was the the basis for the Birkenau crematoria?
>>
>> How hard can it be to refute a pharmacist who does not know what a
>>crystal is?

>Did really only take a linguist and literary critic like Mattogno:

> Carlo Mattogno was born in 1951 in the Umbrian provincial
> town of Orvieto Italy. He has a broad as well as a specialized
> education ranging from the classics to the military. His Greek
> and Latin Studies were followed by university work in philosophy
> as well as Oriental and religious studies, and while serving
> in the Italian army he attended three military schools. Today
> he is an accomplished linguist, researcher, and is a specialist
> in textual analysis.

> –“About the Author,” in Carlos Mattogno _Auschwitz: The End
> of a Legend_ (Newport Beach, CA: Institute [sic] for Historical
> Review, 1994) p. x.

Makes them equal, doesn’t it.

>An education remarkably like my own. Mattogno’s is a book that claims
>to be a thorough study of crematoria and crematory thermodynamics. In
>future, I do hope, Mr. Giwer, that you will not complain about *my*
>lack of formal scientific training.

I have not complained about it. I have noted it. I have noted in
context of when you have attempted to imply you could have an opinion in
light of lack of such training.

>But all slagging aside: why did you not respond to my more substantive
>answer to Mr. Beaulieu’s claims?

And what might that have been?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 45481 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: the parallels
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:14:04 GMT
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I am reminded of a number of fictional scenarios, Night of the Living
Dead, Omega Man, perhaps some episodes from Tales from the Crypt.

Here are the holohuggers who have done their 10 on 1 routine for years
against individuals one at a time and in one day they have started to
return all at one time.

It is sort of the delusional wish they have had, that the “holocaust
victims” would rise from the dead and kill Nazis.

There should be some way to portray this in the true horror story genre
such that their worst fears have come true.

Lets see, if I can find ski mask I can play the part of Jason …

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:56 PDT 1996
Article: 45482 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>member of this so-called “Gang of Six.”

>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

I got the contributor’s list from Nizkor. Tell them to take you off of
it if you do not want the honor. Until they take you off, don’t
complain to me.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45485 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein’s confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:30:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> It appears the only problem you can find with what I am posting is the
>>formatting. Does that drive you up the wall for any particular reason?

>Well, actually, Matt, we’re all used to you being stupid, mendacious,
>and generally a frustrated
>loon with much too much time on his hands, but the misformatting is
>something new. Is this the
>result of your scanning in crap from fellow idiots like those at the IHR?
>I mean, one doesn’t type
>messages this way. How did all this zig-zagging take place? Do you enjoy
>reading this sort of
>paragraph, Matt?

I find it fascinating that this is contained in the message I received
>from you. Who did you cut and paste from to get this response?

>> You mean you believe him when he swore that 25 (twenty five) million
>>people had been gassed?

>Well, actually, I have only your word that he did anything of the sort.
>And you know what I think of his reading comprehension. I don’t know
>what information he was working with. If he said such a thing, certainly
>he was wrong, but I don’t know whether he was lying.

And when he said that Hitler was at Madjanek? When he saw one legged
men marching? When he implied the human body would fit into a 15 inch
cube? When he said children were killed with prussic acid on a tampon?

Get over it. He is typical of the testimony. The only reason he has so
many glaring pieces of nonsense is that he was one of the most prolific.

>> Of course the is the Degesh ad copy that says the
>>possessions of 25 million people had been fumigated but I am certain
>>there is no connection whatsoever, aren’t you?

>Have no idea. Could be that both took erroneous information from a
>common source. So what?

Excuse me but Gerstein claimed to speak from personal knowledge. The
Degesh comment is advertising copy.

>> It is not of interest to you that the man was fluent in three languages
>>and a typist?

>Uh, actually, not very. Are you suggesting that some of the “confessions”
>were forged by others? If so, how does this reflect on Gerstein’s own
>credibility? I certainly don’t find it beyond belief that he could write
>in three languages, Matt, nor was I aware that typing was an ability
>beyond the capability of ordinary humans in the forties. (Have we evolved
>that much since then?) What is your problem with all of this? What is so
>incredible?

What it means is that Gerstein did not write them and we have no idea if
he was credible or not. As to typing, yes, we have evolved much since
them.

>> A lost body, nothing to support the suicide theory, no bruises or worse
>>to see. Consider Lee Harvey Oswald producing five different confessions
>>in three languages, committing suicide, and the body vanishing.

>Your point being? How does Gerstein’s body disappearing affect his
>credibility? What does this have to do with your argument?

His credibility is already shot with his stories that are clearly
untrue. The five conflicting versions have destroyed his credibility.

What the suicide and the vanishing body attack is the credibility of the
French recounting of his suicide.

>>>Mostly the account of his activity in the back of Rolf Hochhuth’s play
>>>THE DEPUTY.

>> A play. Thank you very much. That is like saying Schindler was a moral
>>person from the movie.

>Reading comprehension, Matt. I didn’t say that the information was from
>a play. It was, specifically, from Hochhuth’s essay “Sidelights on
>History” which he appended to his play, since various attacks had been
>made on its historical accuracy.

Excuse me, but it is far from credibility that a playwrite, an author,
perhaps even essayist who provides a background for his play to be more
than a partisan to that opinion. People are not black and white, good
and bad. If in any manner the essay supported the play then it was as
ficticious as the play.

You can not make drama from the life of anyone without changing the life
of that person. You need to read up on myth some day. No one wants to
read about real people unless they have been cast into mythic
proportions or situations. The reason is that it is boring.

>Now the funny thing is that I’ve given you my source on Gerstein,
>and you’ve made fun of it, but you haven’t given me your source yet.
>Curious.

I have pointed out what your source really is. I am simply surprised
someone would not consider the source of such material.

>> I will post as much as I can as soon as I find out more.

>Why do you need to “find out more”? You posted a message saying that
>Gerstein’s “confessions” were “obviously phony”. Did you do so without
>any basis? Did your psychic powers tell you that you would get
>information to that effect some time in the future? You nagged me
>about whether I’d read Gerstein’s testimony directly (which I never
>implied having done): have you? Are you too stupid or too dishonest
>to answer a simple question?

You should have read 11 of his absurdities by now in a separate message.

It if does not arrive, I will post it to you again.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45489 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:25:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions me
>>in any manner.

>”Nachdem alle politische Moeglichkeiten erschoepft sind….

>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.

>um auf friedlichem Wege eine fuer Deutschland….

>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>>will get down to cases on my terms.

>unertraegliche Lage an seiner Ostgrenze zu beseitigen,…..

>> There is nothing in between.

>habe ich mich zur gewaltsamen Loesung entschlossen.”

>> I hope you folks come to understand this.

>”Ich bin der Geist der stets verneint.”

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

Now that is cute.

Why did they choose you to write the “what really makes you tick” email?

Please answer the question.

You deny it, I post it, and the answer.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
…. When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45490 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another curiosity
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:36:21 GMT
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># The last time I brought up a discrepency in total numbers,
># I was told that the Einstatzgruppen got over a million people.
>
>BTW, it’s “Einsatzgruppen”, not “Einstatzgruppen”.
>
># Was that in error?
>
>The lowest estimate for the number of victims of the
>Einsatzgruppen massacres I have seen is 900,000; this figure
>was given (actually, as a lower bound) by the “Institute For
>Contemporary History” in Munich.

It is good to see you agree that the editted out part of the holohugger
claim was nonsense. Thank you.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45493 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first “denier” was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:32:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Richard Widmann)
>wrote:

>>Regarding one of the fathers of holocaust revisionism, PAUL
>>RASSINIER, here’s a brief bio from the CODOH website.

>[deletia]

>>”With regard to gas chambers, the almost endless procession of
>>false witnesses and of falsified documents to which I have invited

>And we see here the first sign of that increasingly ubiquitous
>instrument of “revisionist scholarship”: Because! I! Say! So!

Now, now, now, fatbroad. Holohuggers use nothing but “eyewitnesses say
so” no matter what stupid thing the eyewitness says.

>I do believe, Mr. Widmann, that it was your colleague, Mr. Thomas, who
>noted in another thread:

> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
> over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness
> by default.

You forgot to mention that he was talking about Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass
extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being
led to the bath-house, the
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor
was electrified in a
special way; there they were killed. ”
IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45505 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:03:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>> What an idiot.
>>>>
>>>> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
>>>>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
>>>>
>>>> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>>
>>>> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
>>>>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>>
>>>> To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
>>>>the NG back on track.
>>
>>> Excuse me, but I must be missing something. Other “revisionists” have
>>>posted here – Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>>Vicksell, et al. And their claims have been addressed. They seem to have
>>>given it up. The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>>
>> And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off. That is
>>what you are missing.

> No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.

> Greg Raven was exposed as a liar. It was repeatedly shown that he
>posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
>paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.

> Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
>document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
>that refuted his own theory.

> Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
>of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.

> Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
>introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
>yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
>enough.

> Ross Vicksell simply wasn’t capable of debating anything. Every time
>you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.

> The were not driven out by namecalling. Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>as good as he got from the word go.

> They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.

> The only difference between you and them is, you don’t seem to mind be
>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie. That is your
>problem, not mine.

Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
You folks declared victory. You are now repeating the one sided
declaration of victory.

You have shot down your own side’s position. Thank you again.

>>> So now the posting volume has increased. If that is your definition
>>>of “winning,” then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago.
>>>Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.
>>
>> It is not my definition. You certainly read McCarthy’s message. I got
>>a similar one from McFly by email. They obvious had talked it over.

> Yes, I read his message. I am privy to the discussions that go on.

Conspiracy admitted. Thank you again. It is only a matter of time
before you folks contradict those who deny these things are going on.

> Did you know that I was the one who wrote the mantra, as you call it?

And you were a conspirator. Thank you again.

>(The original, not Mark Van Alstine’s mutated version.) Yet I do not use
>it. Because, you see, there really was no conspiracy. Other people
>simply read it, liked it, and decided to use it. There was no advance
>agreement. I never suggested that it be used. I never intended to use it.
>I have not killfiled you. I respond to you just the same as I respond to
>anyone else, on my own terms, if and when I choose.

The agreement was posted. It is on Dejanews.

> I find it uproariously funny that you think it is such a revelation
>that you are now dealing with Nizkor on your own terms. If you have
>ever been doing anything but, then you are very, very, very stupid.

Agreed in that. I am certainly not capable of singlehandedly hijacking
this conference as I have been accused of doing.

> I have not tried to silence you. I merely point out when you are
>lying or hypocritical. I have said that if my goal were to defend the
>orthodox holocaust story at any cost, I would want you posting forever,
>because you are a liar and easily shown to be such. But if my goal were
>to defend the orthodox history at any cost, then I have done some very
>strange things. Ask Jeff Roberts who it was who reported survivor
>testimony that they were held in Auschwitz unregistered, then sent off to
>other camps without any records being made.

> So you have not beaten me, because I have never played any game other
>than the one I have always played. You can only beat me at it if and when
>you start playing it. But you are not capable of playing that game, 163
>IQ or no.

Right, just one more stupid holohugger among many, right up there with
Ferree and Dahlman.

> If and when I decide to deal with you, you will be dealt with, and on
>my own terms. Because just as you can get this newsgroup to do whatever
>you want, I can summon spirits from the vasty deep, and invoke daemons by
>name. (And I do not even need a pentagram.) I’m sure you are suitably
>impressed.

Sounds serious. Why am I not concerned in the least?

>>> But “discussion” of revision? You have made an assertion about the
>>>amount of coke needed for cremation. And several people have tried to sit
>>>down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
>>>hard numbers. You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
>>>getting down to calculations. What kind of a discussion is that? What
>>>kind of scientist is that?
>>
>> I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions. When are you going
>>to get around to do so?

> Excuse me. You were the one claiming a physics degree and the ability
>to do the calculations. You were the one claiming there was not enough
>coke.

You can not disagree with me without having first run your own
calculations to establish your position. When do we all see them?
NEver? That is what I knew all along.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45506 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism,alt.radio.talk,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:05:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Craig Lambert) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 96 09:13:57 PDT, [email protected] wrote:

>>
>>
>>>
>>> >Matt, the holocaust is historical fact;
>>>
>>> Define it.
>>>
>>> just because it gives your
>>> >political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>>> >happened will make it so. That is called “denial”.
>>>
>>> It is called pointing out there has never been any evidence for
>>gassing
>>> or much of anything else regarding the popular fantasies comprising the
>>> undefined holocaust.
>>>
>>
>>I thought I had met stupidity before but I guess I haven’t til this remark.
>>
>>Hey stupid, go read the history books. Make a trip to the camps. Look at the
>>photos taken of it. Talk to surviors of it and to there families.
>>
>>
>>> I remember an old
>>> >soldier, a tanker with 1st Armored Division in WWII I think, who told
>>> >me of what he saw after they took out the guard towers at one
>>> >particular death camp.
>>>
>>> Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
>>> Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?
>>
>>And who in the hell is Wiesenthal? Guess that’s a part of history I haven’t
>>read? And why do you feel this Wiesenthal is correct and not the rest of
>>what is available as fact.

>You are being trolled by someone playing word games. Simon Wiesenthal has
>been operating out of Vienna for decades, gathering information on the Nazi
>regime of death. Matt is playing with the deathcamp/extermination camp
>difference. Hundreds of thousands died of disease, neglect, starvation and
>execution in camps established on pre-war German territory, but the really
>horrible camps, the extermination camps, were established further to the
>east. I don’t believe that american soldiers physically liberated any so
>called extermination/deathcamps, though they did, as our friend the tanker
>vet witnesses, liberate some camps where many hundreds of thousands of
>prisoners of the Nazi’s died.

They were only found in places that the Russians liberated even though
it was the same evil Nazis acting under the same orders.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:01 PDT 1996
Article: 45509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.miracle.net!newsfeed.randomc.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 01:30:12 GMT
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>braggadocio about “controlling this conference” [1], and simultaneously
>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>a response is necessary.

>Note that the topic here is net abuse, not revisionism, so please send
>followups to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.

>My claim is that Matt Giwer’s intentions are to make alt.revisionism
>useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
>revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists. I
>think I’m on firm ground with this claim, because Mr. Giwer has stated
>so himself [2].

>However, it appears that Mr. Giwer has recently realized that abusing
>the net and bragging about it _might_ not be his wisest course of
>action. So, he is trying to put spin on his own words and deeds, and
>to accuse his accusers of being just as bad as he is.

Give it up, amateur.

>Fortunately, hard drives have long memories.

>1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
>2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless

Nizkor censors it files. No one believes them.

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>> >Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
>> >declared their intentions to be:
>>
>> > making this a “spam conference” [1];
>>
>> I use them as rotating sigs, they are not the message. But of course
>> you would rather misrepresent it as otherwise.

>”Them” and “they” refer to Mr. Giwer’s various “sigs” and “taglines,” as
>he calls them. He’s got roughly ten of them, give or take. They vary
>from reasonably normal (ten lines) up to 100+ lines of dense text. He
>does not post them on all his articles (probably half of them, give or
>take, with no pattern that I’ve been able to discern).

The extra long ones are only used when someone quotes without editting
an extra long post for the sole purpose of adding one line about me. I
return the favor.

>His claim that the sigs “are not the message” is demonstrably false.
>The day before yesterday, I noticed that he’d been posting a number of
>articles that consisted only of a quoted article (usually quoted in
>full) followed by an apparently random “sig.” I started saving such
>articles that I found, and managed to collect over 100K of them —
>between June 17th and 20th alone. That’s over 100K with not a single
>byte of what is usually known as content:

Yes. I told you that when the message was solely to hold a conversation
to attack me that I would attack your holocaust. You folks know that
before you post your attacks.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

>> > posting under fake names to dodge peoples’ killfiles [3];
>>
>> Excuse me, but what fake names have I used?

>To clarify: I’m not saying Giwer _has_ used fake names. He hasn’t,
>to my knowledge.

>I’m saying he’s publicly declared his intention to do so, expressly for
>the purpose of getting around killfiles. That URL again:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02

I was pointing out how damned stupid was the idea of trying to isolate
me.

>This is important because it is confirmation of his intention to not
>simply post his views to the group, but rather to make the group useless
>by making it impossible for anyone to ignore him. I don’t mind people
>using multiple pseudonyms, that’s fine. But most people don’t do it for
>the purpose of smothering a group with unignorable noise.

That is what you folks were doing for years and bragging about. Why is
it any different now?

>> > or, my favorite:
>>
>> > “making it” (this newsgroup) “useless” to anyone who would
>> > challenge revisionist dogma [4].
>>
>> But that is what you folks have deliberately done for years and have
>> bragged about doing it. So what can you possibly be complaining about?
>>
>> You folks have been the thought control freaks and you folks are quite
>> proud of it.

>This seems to be Giwer’s current line of defense — “tu quoque” [3] —
>so I’ll take a moment to put it in context.

>The simple fact is that “us folks” have never done anything like what
>Giwer is doing (nor, obviously, have we bragged about it).

Gee whiz, and I read it on this NG also. Many references to it and many
examples of it up to and including harrassing my family when I would not
stop posting.

We have had
>no intention of making the group useless. Quite the contrary. We have
>always invited “revisionists” to join us, and many have taken us up on
>the offer over the years: Greg Raven, head of the IHR; Friedrich Berg,
>chief author of the “diesel” line of argument; Bradley Smith, director
>of CODOH; Jack Wikoff; Ross Vicksell; Tim McCarthy; Michael Hoffman;
>and probably a few more I’m forgetting.

When they get back here they can speak for themselves.

>I myself have corresponded off the net with several prominent
>revisionists, and have posted that correspondence to alt.revisionism.
>My correspondence with David Cole (of “Piper” video fame) and David
>Irving (author of _Hitler’s War_ and several dozen other books) is still
>archived at the Nizkor site. David Irving, in fact, was kind enough to
>send me floppy disks and invite me to post his letters to “cyberspace,”
>as he put it.

>I did so — and I posted my comments on those letters, too, of course.
>That’s what free and open discussion is all about.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/c/cole.david
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/i/irving.david

>That’s just an example. The discussion has been going on for four
>years; listing all the examples would tax my memory severely and
>would take all night.

>In the last twelve to eighteen months, revisionists have pretty much
>figured out that Usenet is not the place for them. It’s too easy for
>their arguments to be taken apart. Which is ironic, since for the past
>ten or twenty years, they’ve been complaining that what they really want
>is just the chance to be heard and to discuss their ideas freely, with
>skeptics.

But you folks are unable to do so. Rather as I have seen you do is post
some nonsense and declare victory just as you do on Nizkor.

>Well, they got their fill of skeptics! Not a single one of the people I
>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
>return to alt.revisionism. They say it’s because we regulars on
>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren’t professional
>enough for them. I say it’s because they got their facts and logic torn
>apart by a bunch of amateurs. The reader can make up his or her own
>mind — though I suggest first reading Mike Stein’s autopsy of the
>”diesel” arguments of Friedrich Berg, at:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html

And this makes a perfect example of posting anything and declaring
victory. This incomplete article does not address much of anything. It
is not a technical discussion in the least. The author knows nothing of
science.

But you present it, falsely, as it being an answer when it is no such
thing. You have merely declared victory.

>Either way, though, the reader cannot deny that “we” on alt.revisionism
>have engaged in open debate with revisionists, debate about the facts.
>Not only that, but we have openly solicited such debate. We very much
>_want_ revisionists to join us on the newsgroup, and to present their
>claims and arguments to the best of their ability.

And I did and I got everything from written abuse and insults and my ISP
being harrassed to my family being harrassed. That is apparently why
you want revisionists to join, holohugger malice.

>And, of course, we want to opportunity to try to convince lurkers that
>those claims and arguments are wrong. It goes without saying that we
>realize that the best way of doing so, in the long run, is patient and
>thorough analysis and research, not posting hundreds of articles in an
>attempt to drown them out.

And anyone who has read or continues to read this NG knows you are lying
through your teeth in representing the way you holohuggers behave here.
You folks are notorious for it. Your methods are common knowledge.

>I speak for most if not all of us when I say that hearing their errors
>coming from their own mouths, and then seeing those errors
>deconstructed, is much more likely to convince lurkers of revisionism’s
>faults. It’s Mark Twain’s old comment: “better to keep your mouth shut
>and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.” We want
>to help revisionists remove all doubt.

You mean you are promising good behavior in the future?

>So, what to make of Matt Giwer’s claim that it has been our intention
>”for years” to make alt.revisionism “useless” to our opponents? What
>of his claim that we are “thought control freaks” and are “quite proud
>of it”?

Vain protests in the light of such low life extremes as harrassing my
family give the clear lie to your statement.

>Well, in a word, he’s a liar.

And there you have it. The L word.

>Since Mr. Giwer disagrees, he is welcome to state his case to the
>contrary, as best he is able. That’s what this forum,
>news.admin.net-abuse.misc, is for.

>I’ve accused Mr. Giwer of net abuse, and I’ve collected a few hundred K
>of his postings which I use to back up my case:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

They are all censored, modified and distorted. And you folks have
admitted /proven that.

>Now Mr. Giwer has counter-accused me and my colleagues of the same
>charges, and it is up to him to make _his_ case.

>Since he claims that we have “bragged” about making or wanting to make
>the newsgroup useless to our ideological opponents, he should have no
>problem simply quoting examples.

>That is, if he wasn’t simply making it up.

>Since he claims to know that we are “quite proud” of being “thought
>control freaks,” he must be basing this on something, which presumably
>he could retrieve with DejaNews or AltaVista, and quote.

>That is, if he wasn’t simply making it up.

>Mr. Giwer, you see, is quite fond of simply making things up. [4]

>He is quite proud of his abilities with HTML, and in managing web sites,
>and in fact is quite scornful of those who he thinks are inferior in
>that regard. [5]

Nizkor is inferior to even the make-a-site productions of AOL. On the
other hand, I am not particularly proud of my abilities. I continually
point out that HTML is trivial. That is the basis of my scorn for
Nizkor, that Nizkor is not even up to the beginner’s level as yet.

So, he will surely have no problem with simply
>finding the places where my acquaintances and I have “bragged” about
>wanting to make the newsgroup useless to our ideological opponents,
>archiving those quotes on his web site, and posting the URLs. Such a
>task should be child’s play for Mr. Giwer.

>That is, if he wasn’t simply making it up.

>Posted; note followups; _not_ emailed to Matt Giwer, because last time
>I sent him email he angrily Cc’d my provider’s root. [6] Emailed to a
>number of alt.revisionism regulars who may be interested in this
>discussion (and who are invited to comment on my very loose use of the
>first person plural!).

>3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
>4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/at-the-height-of-wit
>6. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/email-voyager-root
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

Note here the co-webmaster. The other co- knows even less than he does.

For a comparison check

www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:02 PDT 1996
Article: 45511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!spool.mu.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.s
Subject: Re: You TOO can pump gas, just like Ken McVay GSA!
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:22:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 243
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>misha wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >misha wrote:
>>
>> >> Reverend,
>> >>
>> >> You are doin’ good. Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise!
>>
>> >Well, it just goes to show you. No matter how stupid the show
>> >it will garner fans somewhere.
>>
>> Please Keith, tell me you didn’t see my sarcasm there?

>Of course I did. Sorry the one-liner…err…ome and a half
>liner was lame, but I just finished reading a post by Matt
>Giwer and if anything can upset your mental faculties, that
>will.

As long at you folks continue to post about me I will respond. The
longer the post the long my tagline will be.

JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS

While Germans were being convicted of making human “soap” (taken
seriously in the seventh edition of Oppenheim and Lauterpacht’s
prestigious International Law, vol. II, p. 450) Japanese defendants were
being convicted of making human “soup” in repeated trials.

This is not a misprint; it was considered a “proven fact” in 1948 – a
“fact” proven in numerous “trials” – that the Japanese are a race of
habitual cannibals who were forbidden upon pain of death from devouring
the corpses of their own dead, but who were officially encouraged to eat
Americans. Americans were served fried, or as soup; people were eaten
when other food was available. Thus, the Japanese engage in cannibalism
out of choice rather than necessity. Favourite human body parts for
culinary purposes are liver, pancreas and gall bladder; Chinese are
swallowed in pill form!

Among the “trials” in which this was “proven” are U.S. Tachibana Yochio
and 13 others, Mariana Islands, 2nd-15th August, 1946; Commonwealth of
Australia vs. Tazaki Takehiko, Wewak, 30th November 1945; Commonwealth
of Australia v. Tomiyasu Tisato, Rabaul, 2nd April 1946; and the most
complex war crimes trial in history, the International Military Tribunal
for the Far East (IMTFE) personally supervised by Douglas McArthur,
which lasted from May 1946 until December 1948 (see The Tokyo Judgment,
vol. 1, pp. 409-410, University of Amsterdam Press 1977, pp. 49,674-5 of
mimeographed transcript.

The 25 defendants who survived trial were all convicted; 7 were hanged.

Their crimes included:

Planning, initiation and waging “aggressive war” against the Soviet
Union (the Soviet Union attacked Japan two days after Hiroshima in
violation of a Non-Agression Pact; on this same day the London Agreement
was signed, pursuant to which the Nuremberg Trial was held); planning,
initiation, and waging “aggressive war” against France (France is in
Europe); illegal sea blockade and indiscriminate population bombing
(case against Shimada), that is, the actions of the British in Europe
would have been illegal if committed by the Japanese; trial of war
criminals before a military tribunal (case against Hata and Tojo; see
also U.S. vs. Sawada, probably the most disgusting and hypocritical
accusation of all; the victims were 7 Americans guilty of participating
in the fire-bombing of Tokyo in which 80,000 women and children were
burned to death) and cannibalism. It was not alleged that the defendants
ate anyone personally.

The evidence included:

* Soviet War Crimes Reports * Chinese War Crimes Reports * Soviet
reports based on Japanese documents not attached to the reports *
Summaries of Japanese military aggression in China (written by the
Chinese) * 317 Judge Advocate General War Crimes Reports (total length:
14,618 pages) “quoting” “captured” Japanese documents, diaries,
cannibalism confessions, mass murder orders, orders to gas P.O.W.s on
remote South Sea islands, etc. (“captured documents” not attached to
reports; proof of authenticity not required) * affidavits of Japanese
soldiers imprisoned in Siberia * affidavits of Japanese referring to
Japs as the ‘enemy’ * affidavits of Red Army Officers * newspaper
clippings (admissable evidence for the prosecution, but not usually for
the defense; i.e., events in China were proven by quoting the Chicago
Daily Tribune, the New Orleans Times- Picayune, the Sacrimento Herald,
Oakland Tribune, New York Herald, New York Times, Christian Science
Monitor, etc. * the “affidavit” of Marquis Takugawa (written in English
and not read to him in Japanese) * the statements of Okawa (Okawa was
declared insane and confined to a lunatic asylum, but his statements
were used in evidence) * the testimony of Tanaka (a professional witness
paid by the Americans; Okawa, when drunk, has confessed everything to
Tanaka; Tanaka ‘The Monster’ Ryukichi was supposedly responsible for
millions of atrocities but was not tried, instead he moved freely about
Japan) * Kido’s diary (titbits of gossip about everybody Kido didn’t
like) * Harada’s Memoirs (Harada had suffered a stroke, so his dictation
was incomprehensible; how well he could remember and what he meant to
say were anybody’s guess; the translations were a guess; many different
“copies” had been “corrected” by a variety of people other than the
person to whom he had dictated; added to which he had a reputation for
telling lies).

The Prosecution’s Answer to Defense Arguments at the end of the trial
refutes all defensive evidence, stating that documents (translations of
excerpts “copies” without proof of issuance or signature) are the best
witnesses. If prosecution and defense both quote a document, defense
have quoted out of context, but never the prosecution. Hearsay has
probative value; testimony of defense witnesses has no probative value;
cross- examination is a waste of time.

Five of the 11 judges – William Webb of Australia, Delfin Jaranilla of
the Philippines, and Bert. A. Röling of the Netherlands, Henri Bernhard
of France, and R.B. Pal of India – dissented. Pal wrote a famous 700
page dissentient opinion in which he called the prosecution atrocity
evidence “mostly worthless”, remarking sarcastically that he hoped one
of the documents was in Japanese.

A peculiarity of war crimes trials is that far from “proving” anything,
they all contradict each other. It was held at Tokyo that the Chinese
had a “right” to violate “unfair” treaties, and that Japanese efforts to
enforce such treaties – because they were “unfair” – constituted
“aggression”.

When the atomic bombs were dropped, Shigemitsu had been attempting to
negotiate a surrender for nearly 11 months, beginning on September 14,
1944. This of course became another “crime” – “prolonging the war
through negotiation”.

“Proof” of Japanese cannibal activity may be found in JAG Report 317,
pp. 12,467-8 of mimeographed transcript; Exhibits 1446 and 1447, pp.
12,576-7; Exhibit 1873, pp. 14, 129-30, and Exhibits 2056 and 2056A and
B, pp. 15,032- 42.

JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS

While Germans were being convicted of making human “soap” (taken
seriously in the seventh edition of Oppenheim and Lauterpacht’s
prestigious International Law, vol. II, p. 450) Japanese defendants were
being convicted of making human “soup” in repeated trials.

This is not a misprint; it was considered a “proven fact” in 1948 – a
“fact” proven in numerous “trials” – that the Japanese are a race of
habitual cannibals who were forbidden upon pain of death from devouring
the corpses of their own dead, but who were officially encouraged to eat
Americans. Americans were served fried, or as soup; people were eaten
when other food was available. Thus, the Japanese engage in cannibalism
out of choice rather than necessity. Favourite human body parts for
culinary purposes are liver, pancreas and gall bladder; Chinese are
swallowed in pill form!

Among the “trials” in which this was “proven” are U.S. Tachibana Yochio
and 13 others, Mariana Islands, 2nd-15th August, 1946; Commonwealth of
Australia vs. Tazaki Takehiko, Wewak, 30th November 1945; Commonwealth
of Australia v. Tomiyasu Tisato, Rabaul, 2nd April 1946; and the most
complex war crimes trial in history, the International Military Tribunal
for the Far East (IMTFE) personally supervised by Douglas McArthur,
which lasted from May 1946 until December 1948 (see The Tokyo Judgment,
vol. 1, pp. 409-410, University of Amsterdam Press 1977, pp. 49,674-5 of
mimeographed transcript.

The 25 defendants who survived trial were all convicted; 7 were hanged.

Their crimes included:

Planning, initiation and waging “aggressive war” against the Soviet
Union (the Soviet Union attacked Japan two days after Hiroshima in
violation of a Non-Agression Pact; on this same day the London Agreement
was signed, pursuant to which the Nuremberg Trial was held); planning,
initiation, and waging “aggressive war” against France (France is in
Europe); illegal sea blockade and indiscriminate population bombing
(case against Shimada), that is, the actions of the British in Europe
would have been illegal if committed by the Japanese; trial of war
criminals before a military tribunal (case against Hata and Tojo; see
also U.S. vs. Sawada, probably the most disgusting and hypocritical
accusation of all; the victims were 7 Americans guilty of participating
in the fire-bombing of Tokyo in which 80,000 women and children were
burned to death) and cannibalism. It was not alleged that the defendants
ate anyone personally.

The evidence included:

* Soviet War Crimes Reports * Chinese War Crimes Reports * Soviet
reports based on Japanese documents not attached to the reports *
Summaries of Japanese military aggression in China (written by the
Chinese) * 317 Judge Advocate General War Crimes Reports (total length:
14,618 pages) “quoting” “captured” Japanese documents, diaries,
cannibalism confessions, mass murder orders, orders to gas P.O.W.s on
remote South Sea islands, etc. (“captured documents” not attached to
reports; proof of authenticity not required) * affidavits of Japanese
soldiers imprisoned in Siberia * affidavits of Japanese referring to
Japs as the ‘enemy’ * affidavits of Red Army Officers * newspaper
clippings (admissable evidence for the prosecution, but not usually for
the defense; i.e., events in China were proven by quoting the Chicago
Daily Tribune, the New Orleans Times- Picayune, the Sacrimento Herald,
Oakland Tribune, New York Herald, New York Times, Christian Science
Monitor, etc. * the “affidavit” of Marquis Takugawa (written in English
and not read to him in Japanese) * the statements of Okawa (Okawa was
declared insane and confined to a lunatic asylum, but his statements
were used in evidence) * the testimony of Tanaka (a professional witness
paid by the Americans; Okawa, when drunk, has confessed everything to
Tanaka; Tanaka ‘The Monster’ Ryukichi was supposedly responsible for
millions of atrocities but was not tried, instead he moved freely about
Japan) * Kido’s diary (titbits of gossip about everybody Kido didn’t
like) * Harada’s Memoirs (Harada had suffered a stroke, so his dictation
was incomprehensible; how well he could remember and what he meant to
say were anybody’s guess; the translations were a guess; many different
“copies” had been “corrected” by a variety of people other than the
person to whom he had dictated; added to which he had a reputation for
telling lies).

The Prosecution’s Answer to Defense Arguments at the end of the trial
refutes all defensive evidence, stating that documents (translations of
excerpts “copies” without proof of issuance or signature) are the best
witnesses. If prosecution and defense both quote a document, defense
have quoted out of context, but never the prosecution. Hearsay has
probative value; testimony of defense witnesses has no probative value;
cross- examination is a waste of time.

Five of the 11 judges – William Webb of Australia, Delfin Jaranilla of
the Philippines, and Bert. A. Röling of the Netherlands, Henri Bernhard
of France, and R.B. Pal of India – dissented. Pal wrote a famous 700
page dissentient opinion in which he called the prosecution atrocity
evidence “mostly worthless”, remarking sarcastically that he hoped one
of the documents was in Japanese.

A peculiarity of war crimes trials is that far from “proving” anything,
they all contradict each other. It was held at Tokyo that the Chinese
had a “right” to violate “unfair” treaties, and that Japanese efforts to
enforce such treaties – because they were “unfair” – constituted
“aggression”.

When the atomic bombs were dropped, Shigemitsu had been attempting to
negotiate a surrender for nearly 11 months, beginning on September 14,
1944. This of course became another “crime” – “prolonging the war
through negotiation”.

“Proof” of Japanese cannibal activity may be found in JAG Report 317,
pp. 12,467-8 of mimeographed transcript; Exhibits 1446 and 1447, pp.
12,576-7; Exhibit 1873, pp. 14, 129-30, and Exhibits 2056 and 2056A and
B, pp. 15,032- 42.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:03 PDT 1996
Article: 45518 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:34:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>> If you said that you had
>> searched for a historian who does believe it and found one, or if you said
>> that you could not find any historian who supports Faurisson’s assertion,
>> after reasonably diligent search, then and only then would you have earned
>> the right to legitimately claim that perhaps Faurisson is mistaken.

>I don’t suppose it has occurred to you that Dr. Daniel Keren happens to
>know quite a bit about the Holocaust, its history, and what historians
>claim about it?

Is that Dr. of Computer Science supposed to be as impressive as a degree
in pharmacy?

Have you noticed the good doctor sees burn victims without signs of
fire?

Have you noticed the good doctor blows a lot of smoke? (The color
depends upon his body fat.)

>I don’t suppose it has occurred to you that Dr. Robert Faurisson is also
>quite well-versed in these matters, having spent the last two decades or
>so doing little else?

Two doctors in a row. What might his degree be in? Anything that makes
the title more relevent than you use of Keren’s applied math degree?

>Faurisson has done a tremendous amount of research on the Holocaust —
>more research than I’ll ever do — searching not for the truth but for
>half-truths. If Faurisson makes a pronouncement that is just plain
>wrong, it’s not out of ignorance, I can assure you that. He’s not dumb,
>and he’s not ignorant on this subject.

How do you know? Upon what do you base your personal assurance? Do you
know him personally? If you answer is that a book of his impressed you,
then you are far from making your case in this matter.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 45527 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Article by Mattogno [Part 1]
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:08:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Jeff wrote:

>DEPORTATION AND EXTERMINATION OF THE HUNGARIAN JEWS
>by Carlo Mattogno

>2) Registration of prisoners coming from Hungary were done cumulatively;
>that is, a registration can refer to more than one convoy which arrived
>on the same day. This explanation, which is acceptable to us, was adopted
>two years later by Danuta Czech in the second German language edition of
>the Auschwitz Kalendarium (14) which states that part of the Hungarian
>Jews deported to Auschwitz were housed in sectors BIIe, BIIc and BIII in
>Birkenau, called “Durchgangslager KL Auschwitz II” in the documents. (15)
>Registrations regarding the Hungarian Jews are moreover, often introduced
>by the formula “Aus den Transporten des RSHA aus Ungarn…” (from convoys
>of the RSHA from Hungary), (16) by which Danuta Czech means that the
>relative registration of prisoners is referred to more than one convoy.

>It is quite evident that Jean-Claude Pressac has basically adopted our
>reasoning of 1987. (17)

One of these days I am going to have to get around to reading some of
these books rather than simply relying upon their supporters to give me
absurd abstracts from them.

From the more extensive discussion you are providing it is almost as
though there is no discussion of any holocaust at all. It is as though
they are talking about something else entirely and then putting a little
holocaust icing on top of it.

I find a similar thing done by aercheologists working in the Near East.
Their funding comes from people wanting to find some, may I say the
first, scientific confirmation of the bible. The papers open with a nod
to some biblical location they may have found. Then it continues with
something like “it was hard to find as it is 35 miles from where it is
described in the bible.”

Reading between the lines of course, they are saying there is nothing
where the bible says it was, we have no idea what this city is, and we
had to say something to keep the funding coming.

This sounds awfully similar.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 45530 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Amazing scientific true facts!
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:15:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:42:48 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:35:15 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>[snip]

>>>>> Since you like Greg Raven’s web site so much, you ought to read Weber
>>>>>and Allen’s article about Treblinka and see how deep the soil was dug up.

>>>> It was not dug up. It was cored.

>>>No. This is quite incorrect. Do some real reading.

>> Then some one lied on this conference when they claimed there was
>>coring. Take your choice.

>Two points. Whether some unnamed person lied or was mistaken about
>core samples being taken at Treblinka, the fact remains that none were
>taken at Treblinka.

>If your are finding some difficulty in keeping things straight based
>upon your reading of this newsgroup, I can only recommend again that
>you take a book out of the library, curl up in a big easy chair and
>read it. This newsgroup is not, as you so often indicate, the most
>reliable source for information.

>>>>> So who said anything about how the core sample was actually
>>>>>distributed?

>>>> What does that mean? The report was of finding a few bone fragments and
>>>>some hair (for some reason, sounds like contamination to me.) There is
>>>>nothing in the claim that even remotely hints at the quantities
>>>>required.

>>>No. This is quite incorrect core samples were taken at Auschwitz. In
>>>the only reference posted to alt.revisionism, to the Hydrokop tests,
>>>the word “few” was not used.

>> I was referring to the claims about Treblinka.

>> As you know there are no claims of burial that would still remain at
>>Auschwitz.

>> Or perhaps, one more time, you folks have screwed up your own stories.

>Fine and dandy. The word “few” would not apply to Treblinka either.
>The mass graves at Treblinka covered several acres. Excavations
>discovered undisturbed soil at a depth of seven meters. The top two
>meters (my unreliable memory) were free of bone fragments and the
>like. The remaining five and half meters were a mixture of sand, ash,
>bone fragments, bits of clothing and hair, and partially decayed
>flesh. This is not a volume of material that would be used to contain
>a “few” bodies.

>Just as a point of interest, Weber and Allen argue that this huge
>grave site proves that there were no mass killings at Treblinka
>because the eyewitnesses all said that the bodies were destroyed
>utterly or some such thing. “Howler” might be an apt description for
>this argument. It is not, of course, your argument; I include it only
>as a point of interest, since their article on Treblinka is mentioned
>at the top of this post.

The other story goes that there were a couple hundred core samples and
about half of them had some bone and hair. I was willing to let hair
pass due to lack of biologic activity at that depth. Here, however,
partially decayed flesh is difficult to pass as it contains its own
biologic activity and whatever the date of this excavation it was at
least two years later.

To get to the bottom of this it would be desirable to have the entire
report of the investigation including the resulting pathology that
identified these fragments as human.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 45531 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to get a desired confession
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:53:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 400
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> I have decided to try an experiment. Let’s apply the same methods of
>analysis to witnesses used by the “revisionists” to the witnesses they
>adduce in their own arguments.

It is about time.

It is good to see you agree all of the horror stories are just stories.

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> And holohuggers could produce only personal attacks when I talked about
>>1940s interrogation methods.
>>
>>When It’s Confession Time at Dachau,
>>or, I Saw the Light While I Was Seeing Stars
>>
>>By Carlos Porter
>>
>>In war crimes trials, confessions are usually typewritten by the
>>interrogator, often entirely in English. Paragraphs in the prisoner’s
>>handwriting have usually been dictated by the interrogator.The First
>>Dachau Trial (Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss and Thirty Nine Others),
>>offers an insight into the manner in which these confessions were
>>obtained.
>>
>>(TESTIMONY OF KICK, microfilm pages 000145-9).
>>
>>Q: Are either of these two statements 96 or 97 in your handwriting?
>>
>>A: The post-script on page 4 of 96 is in my handwriting.
>>
>>Q: The rest of it is written in what manner?
>>
>>A: The other part of it is typed.
>>
>>Q: Did you dictate the typing?
>>
>>A: No.
>>
>>Q: Who did?
>>
>>A: The interrogating officer.
>>
>>Q: Who was the interrogating officer?
>>
>>A: Lt. Guth.
>>
>>Q: Is the language contained in either of those statements your language
>>or the language of Lt. Guth?
>>
>>A: Those are the expressions of Lt. Guth.
>>
>>Q: And at the end of your statements you signed them, and swore to them
>>as being the truth, did you not?
>>
>>A: Yes.
>>
>>Q: … will you describe to the court the treatment that you received
>>prior to your first interrogation anyplace?
>>
>>(Prosecution objection as to whether beating received on the 6th of May
>>could be relevant to confession signed on the 5th of November).
>>
>>Q: … Kick, did the treatment you received immediately following your
>>arrest have any influence whatever on the statements that you made on
>>the 5th of November?
>>
>>A: … The treatment at that time influenced this testimony to that
>>extent, that I did not dare to refuse to sign, in spite of the fact that
>>it did not contain the testimony which I gave.
>>
>>Q: Now, Kick, for the court, will you describe the treatment which you
>>received immediately following your arrest?
>>
>>A: I ask to refuse to answer this question here in public.
>>
>>President: The court desires to have the defendant answer the question.
>>
>>A: I was here in Dachau from the 6th to the 15th of May, under arrest;
>>during this time I was beaten all during the day and night… kicked…
>>I had to stand to attention for hours; I had to kneel down on sharp
>>objects or square objects;

> Square objects? Not round ones? What is so terrible about square
>objects? Why are they much different from the flat floor? And why square
>sometimes and sharp others? Doesn’t this witness know that consistency is
>important?

>>I had to stand under the lamp for hours and
>>look into the light, at which time I was also beaten and kicked; as a
>>result of this treatment my arm was paralysed for about 8 to 10 weeks;
>>only beginning with my transfer to Augsberg, this treatment stopped.
>>
>>Q: What were you beaten with?
>>
>>A: With all kinds of objects.
>>
>>Q: Describe them, please.
>>
>>A: With whips, with lashing whips, with rifle butts, pistol butts, and
>>pistol barrels, and with hands and fists.

> Again, can’t keep a consistent story.

>>Q: And that continued daily over a period of what time?
>>
>>A: From the morning of the 7th of May until the morning of the 15th of
>>May.

> Not one broken bone from all those rifle butts. Not even a hairline
>fracture. At least I see no forensic report of it. Amazing they had such
>control over those rifle butts.

> But since there is no physical evidence, and testimony is not
>evidence, we have no evidence.

>>Q: Kick, why did you hesitate to give that testimony?
>>
>>A: If the court hadn’t decided I should talk about it, I wouldn’t have
>>said anything about it today.
>>
>>Q: Would you describe the people who administered these beatings to you?
>>
>>
>>A: I can only say that they were persons who were wearing the United
>>States uniform and I can’t describe them any better.

> They did not have name patches on the uniforms in those days?

> Could not describe them better? Could not remember hair color?
>Height? Approximate age? Terrible memory this witness has.

>>Q: And as a result of those beatings when Lt. Guth called you in, what
>>was your frame of mind?
>>
>>A: I had to presume that if I were to refuse to sign I would be
>>subjected to a similar treatment.
>>
>>(TESTIMONY OF KRAMER, microfilm pages 000298-9).
>>
>>Q: Kramer, were you interrogated after your arrest anywhere except
>>Dachau?
>>
>>A: Yes, in Fuerstenfeldbruck.
>>
>>Q: Did that interrogation have any effect on the statement that you made
>>here?
>>
>>Prosecution: I object to that question as being immaterial and
>>irrelevant.
>>
>>President: Explain exactly what happened.
>>
>>Q: Will you explain exactly what happened at that interrogation? A: I do
>>not want to talk about it.
>>
>>Q: The court desires you to explain what happened.
>>
>>A: I was beaten by an interrogation officer. Several prisoners were also
>>present.

> How very stupid, having around some of his fellow prisoners to serve
>as witnesses to his mistreatment. Well, perhaps it was to impress upon
>them the example being made of this one, that they would get the same if
>they did not cooperate. But wait, where are they to corroborrate his
>statement?

>>I was supposed to tell how many people I shot or hanged. I can
>>say with a conscience that I never killed a person. Thereupon, I was
>>beaten over the head with sticks and rubber hoses until I broke down.

> No whips? No rifle butts? Consistency, where is the consistency?

>>Q: Anything else to say about that?
>>
>>A: No …
>>
>>(TESTIMONY OF DR. WITTELER, microfilm pages 000327-331).
>>
>>A: During my interrogation I had to sit in front of the desk of Lt.
>>Guth. A spotlight was turned on me which stood on the desk. Lt. Guth
>>stood behind the spotlight and the interrogation started. “We
>>know you, we have the necessary records about you…” I started to make
>>an explanation. I was immediately stopped. I was yelled at. He called me
>>a swine, criminal, liar, murderer, and that is the way the interrogation
>>continued. I couldn’t give any explanations. I was only told to answer
>>”yes” or “no”… I was interrupted immediately and told that all I had
>>to do was answer “yes” and “no”. I couldn’t even explain it. I was told
>>to shut up and to answer “yes” or “no”… since it was not like he
>>thought it was, I had to get up and stand. So I stood up until 1:30 in
>>the morning – seven hours.
>>
>>Q: … at the conclusion of the drafting of this statement you signed
>>it?
>>
>>A: No, I answered that it is not correct… this statement was not
>>written in my presence. It was written in another room. The reporter was
>>with me in the room all the time, but the statement was
>>written in another room. After I couldn’t stand up any more this
>>statement was put in front of me at 1:30. And then when I said that this
>>testimony… is not by me, that is the testimony of Dr. Blaha —
>>who was present for several hours that night… so that I didn’t want to
>>sign it. Lt. Guth said he would interrogate me until tomorrow morning,
>>that he had other methods…

> Must have had some respect for the medical profession. Kick seems to
>have claimed that he was beaten from the start, but they only shone lights
>on this one. Why the softer treatment? It was the same Lt. Guth involved
>both times, right?

>>(DR. BLAHA WAS A CZECH COMMUNIST WHO CLAIMED THE GERMANS FORCED HIM TO
>>SKIN PEOPLE AND MAKE SLIPPERS, SADDLES, PURSES, HANDBAGS, GLOVES, AND
>>TROUSERS OUT OF HUMAN SKIN. HE ALSO WAS THE ONLY WITNESS AT THE DACHAU
>>TRIAL WHO CLAIMED THERE WAS A GAS CHAMBER AT DACHAU. HIS TESTIMONY WAS
>>INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS “PROVEN FACT”).
>>
>>Q: How many people were present at the time you were interrogated?
>>
>>A: Altogether, three: Lt. Guth, Dr. Leiss, and I, and, for a short time,
>>Dr. Blaha.
>>
>>Q: This writing in your own handwriting. Was that dictated or did you
>>make it up?
>>
>>A: When I found that the interrogation would end that way, I wrote down
>>this last part and signed my name to it.
>>
>>Q: Was it your own words or was it dictated to you?
>>
>>A: Lt. Guth dictated those words…
>>
>>Q: Prior to the time that you signed that statement, have you been
>>served with any papers in this particular case?
>>
>>A: No, I didn’t know why I was in Dachau. I had no idea I was one of the
>>accused. After the interrogation at 1:30 I was sent to the colonel and
>>the colonel then read the charge to me. The first time I heard I was
>>supposed to be a murderer, was then.
>>
>>Q: You mean Col. Denson read the charges to you?
>>
>>A: Yes.
>>
>>(Col. Denson acted as prosecutor in this trial and delivered the
>>prosecution summation. Lt. Guth appeared as a witness and denied all
>>accusations of improper conduct. Guth was a Viennese who came to the
>>United States in 1941).

> In the middle of the war in Europe? From an enemy country? And he
>was made an officer? And one of the interrogators?

>>(TESTIMONY OF GRETSCH, microfilm pages 000701-3).
>>
>>Q: Gretsch, is this statement in your handwriting?
>>
>>A: No, that isn’t my handwriting.
>>
>>Q: What part of this paper is in your handwriting?
>>
>>A: This is my handwriting here.
>>
>>Q: And what is this? What part of the paper is this?
>>
>>A: That is, “I have made the above statements without compulsion, and I
>>have read and corrected it and understand it fully. I swear before God
>>that it is the pure truth”.
>>
>>Q: That is the oath, is it not?
>>
>>A: Yes, that is the oath.
>>
>>Q: And is the oath the only part of this statement that is in your
>>handwriting?
>>
>>A: Yes…
>>
>>Q: … Gretsch, you signed each page… did you not?
>>
>>A: Yes, I signed it on the bottom, but I didn’t read it. It was in a
>>hurry…
>>
>>Q: …Were you told to sign your name to each sheet of paper? A: Yes…
>>
>>(PROSECUTION REBUTTAL – TESTIMONY OF COL. CHAVEZ, microfilm pages
>>000712-4).
>>
>>Q: Kick testified that he was beaten daily from the 7th of May until the
>>15th of May… did you have occasion to examine Kick?
>>
>>A: Yes.
>>
>>Q: … did you have occasion to observe his physical condition?
>>
>>A: I did.
>>
>>Q: Did he have any black eyes?
>>
>>A: He did not.
>>
>>Q: Did he show any evidence of violence having been used upon him?
>>
>>A: He did not.
>>
>>Q: Was any one or both of his arms paralysed?
>>
>>A: Not that I observed. He was just as natural as he is now. In fact, he
>>looked better at that time than he does now. I observed nothing. He was
>>very cooperative, and the record will so indicate. He was sworn and he
>>gave his testimony in a very gently manner.
>>
>>Q: Did he at any time state to you, Colonel, that he had been beaten or
>>in any manner mistreated?
>>
>>A: He did not.
>>
>>Q: … how often did you see him?
>>
>>A: Just during the time that he was interrogated.
>>
>>Q: … of course he was fully clothed?
>>
>>A: Yes.
>>
>>Q: But there is no question about it – at the time you talked with him
>>he was quite cooperative?
>>
>>A: He was…
>>
>>(COL. CHAVEZ WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE “CHAVEZ REPORT”, WHICH WAS TO HAVE
>>”PROVEN” THAT A GAS CHAMBER EXISTED AT DACHAU. THE REPORT WAS NEVER
>>INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE, AND THIS ACCUSATION WAS DROPPED BEFORE TRIAL.
>>COL. CHAVEZ APPEARED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS AT DACHAU ON NOV. 15, 1945,
>>BUT MADE NO MENTION OF A GAS CHAMBER. THE CHAVEZ REPORT WAS THEN
>>RE-WRITTEN AND INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS DOCUMENTS
>>2430 PS AND 159 L, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS KNOWN TO BE UNTRUE).
>>
>>(TESTIMONY OF LT. LAURENCE, microfilm pages 000714-5).
>>
>>Q: Did you have occasion to examine Albin Gretsch?
>>
>>A: Yes, Sir.
>>
>>Q: … and did he complain of any mis-statements?…
>>
>>A: Not at all, sir… they are mostly his own words, sir. And I may add,
>>sir, that I wasn’t in a hurry at all. He took many hours and as he was
>>rather slow in answering, I gave him all the time he wanted…
>>
>>Q: The statement, with the exception of the oath, is in your
>>handwriting, is it not, Lt. Laurence?
>>
>>A: Yes.
>>
>>(Of course, while German allegations of mistreatment are always
>>dismissed as baseless, similar accusations from prosecution witnesses
>>are accepted as “proven facts”.

> Of course, revisionists simply change the set of witnesses they
>believe without question and the set of witnesses they claim are lying
>through their teeth.

>>Among the offenses for which KICK was
>>hanged was knocking 15 teeth out of the lower jaw of Llewellyn
>>Edwards of 12, Nora St. Cardiff, Wales, who claimed to have lost 15
>>upper teeth at some other time[!]):
>>
>>Q: At the time you went in Kick’s office, how many teeth did you have in
>>your head?
>>
>>A: Fifteen, sir. On the bottom, sir. Fifteen of my own, sir. On the top
>>I had artificial teeth.
>>
>>(microfilm page 000722).

> Did anyone catch the deliberate misreading? That too is a common
>denier technique in refuting testimony. If you did not spot it go back
>and look again.
>–
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45536 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I control Giwer
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:35:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 342
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 3:38:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>As will now be obvious to even occasional readers of this newsgroup, I
>clearly control Giwer. This is in spite of his boasts that he controls this
>newsgroup. He seems, in his besotted state, to confuse lots of posts with
>control, forgetting that he himself said one time that there is no
>additional charge involved in downloading large newsgroups. Oblivious to
>the fact that he makes himself the fool with each post, he continues to
>pound away at the keyboard, lurching from semi-coherency to besotted
>vulgarity.

This was a very stupid thing to go, McFly.

>You will note that Giwer has not responded to my last several posts.
>Instead, he has simply quoted the entire post, and added some silly quotes
>he stole from a revisionist Wen site, or, more likely, that are being fed to
>him by other denier scum, since he has failed to show himself capable of any
>research that is less than 80-proof.

>What he doesn’t realize is how transparent it is how I conned him into doing
>this. When I started posting my mantra, I knew that he would go through
>three stages: ignore it; rage about it; and emulate it. Of course, he did
>exactly that, exactly as I had predicted. It is the same with the Marduk
>affair. He emulated that strategy, and started forging his own messages.
>He was reduced to the rather pathetic position of bawling that I was Marduk,
>a stupid assertion that Giwer knew to be untrue and that must have been as
>amusing to Marduk as it was to me. Giwer must have been very embarrassed
>when the person he claimed would support his position mailed several people,
>including him, to say that he was a liar.

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>Then there was the lawsuit affair. I knew that if I baited him enough, he
>would libel me. I goaded him into it. Like the compliant little puppet he
>is, he fell for it, hook, line and sinker. The master troller was trolled
>by a third-rate holohugger. He posted the libel and still quakes with fear,
>waiting for the papers to be served. And I keep him quaking, by reminding
>him that the papers will be served when I, not he, decides. Hell, I may do
>it in person.

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>I e-mailed him the other day. I told him that it was a serious attempt to
>find out what makes him tick. But I knew what he would do. He would send a
>smirking, insulting reply, and then he would post my e-mail publicly. And
>what happened? Exactly what I willed to happen. But he went me one better.
>In his inebriated state, he forgot he had already replied, and replied a
>second time! Another show of obedience.

>So the master troller, the control freak, is really nothing more than a
>compliant little puppy who does what it is told. And as such, he loses the
>1% credibility that he may still have left.

>By the way, I know what he is going to do when he reads this post. I have
>that planned as well.

>Good little Mattie-fido.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45541 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another example of a holohugger fraud
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:35:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 9:38:00 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/ )
>>
>>Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg
>>Gardelegen2.jpg Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpgQ

>I would be remiss if I did not point out that these files are
>also available from our European mirror site,
>ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ , and I urge European
>users to take full advantage of this German site.

They certainly show do so so that they will find the following contrary
to the obvious by inspection story that they people were kille by being
burned. What one will notice is that there is no sign of any burn
damage to any of the bodies or their surroundings.

I would certainly hope that everyone is not as gullible as these people.

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45542 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:35:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 8:37:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>> As to how diseases break out, that is a question of epidemiology. The
>> miracle is that the other diseases of close living like dysentary and
>> cholera did not occur. That testifies to a very well run camp.

> You are right; it is a question of epidemiology. Typhus was
>edemic in eastern Europe. Look up Brill-Zinnser Disease for an
>explanation of why there were epidemics in the camps. There was no
>reservoir for cholera so there were no problems with it. The same
>could be said for Bubonic Plague, smallpox, and Llasa Fever. The
>same cannot be said for “dysentary” which was — dispite your statement
>– epidemic in the camps.

As you will remember the evil Nazis actually introduced mosquito born
malaria in their medical experiments. However, diseases resulting from
poor quality water are not so easily explainable.

Nor is the lack of tuberculosis so easily explained under the reported
conditions. Nor are any of the other diseases which transmit before
there are symptoms.

Nor are the illnesses people are suseptable when malnourished and
exposed to low temperature so easy to explain by their absense. Flu,
even the common cold, followed by incurable at the time pneumonia for
example.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:17 PDT 1996
Article: 45543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:28:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:30:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Johan Carlson wrote:

>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>> Giwer:
>>
>> 1. Rich Green
>> 2. Johan Carlson
>> 3.
>> 4.
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rich Green
>>
>> PS If Mr. Giwer repeatedly sends the same text to the newsgroup,
>> however, I will e-mail it back to him and [email protected]
>>

>Good idea Mr. Green. Maybe the Nizkor people could include (or mention)
>this list in their Giwer Report.

More threats of harrassment for by choice of sigs.

Only holohuggers would even think of such a thing.

What is it you folks think you are complaining about?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
…. When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:18 PDT 1996
Article: 45544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:36:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:38:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, “Duncan Coons”
><[email protected]> wrote:

>> Why don’t Nizkorians
>> kill all Giwer’s posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>> Nizkor’s. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>> reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>> newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

>If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most
>certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers. I pay them quite a
>bit of attention. I’ve carried on discussions with (to name a few)
>Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen,
>Alexander Baron, and I’m trying to discuss something with
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard…

>Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that
>their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where
>discussion is next to impossible. None of those people is flagrant
>net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble. And all of those
>people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me.

>Giwer is just a troll, and he’s out to destroy discussion. There’s
>nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals.

Please ignore me. That makes it easier and all the manufactured
complaints about what I post will go away. It will be greatly
appreciated.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45545 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:34:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:36:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, “Duncan Coons”
><[email protected]> wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
>><[email protected]>…

>>> NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>>>
>>> To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>>An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don’t
>>Nizkorians kill all Giwer’s posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
>>Nizkor’s. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
>>reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
>>newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.

>Well, Mr. Coons your suggestion would seem to indicate that you have
>read very few of Giwer’s posts. As for deniers “killing” Nizkor
>posts, perhaps you have read few of theirs as well. For all the
>relevance of many of their responses to the points raised in Nizkor
>posts, one might well infer that they are already ignoring them.

When the fat broads of the conference exemplify the propensity of the
holohuggers to post nothing but personal attacks and abuse in hopes of
running those who refuse to believe as they do there is nothing to
contribute to save to return the abuse.

But you know that.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:20 PDT 1996
Article: 45546 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:14:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 7:16:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:19:51 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>I don’t think that you are in any position to estimate who is a real historian
>>>is and who not. And by the way, since you seem to be informed that
>>>the quotations given by those who follow reason are manipulated,
>>>could you please give four or five major titles on holocaust-research?
>>>I mean history-books, do you know any? Any important authors?
>>
>> I would rather do it this way.
>>
>> Non-historians
>>
>> Hilberg, Pressac, Wiesenthal, Wiesel
>>
>> Non-historical books
>>
>> theirs

>Raul Hilberg is a Professor Emeritus of History at the University of
>Vermont where he began teaching in 1956.

>Actually, there are now hundreds professional historians specializing
>in the Holocaust and modern German history. It is a growing field and
>not so lonely as it was when the important English-language historians
>could be counted on your fingers.

Before he got into that gig as a reward for supporting orthodoxy he was
a professor of Political Science at UV. His doctorate is in public law
and government. Sorry about that.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first “denier” was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:15:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:17:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jeff writes:

># Note: Paul Rassinier was the “father” of revisionism,

>I recall jamie McCarthy posted something about one of the
>”fathers of revisionism”.

He, like Mikie would post anything. So what?

>This “father of revisionism” (FOR) was discussing the
>Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers. Those in Birkenau were
>referred to as II,III,IV and V.

>Then, the blithering FOR imbecile said something like “but
>whatever became of crematorium number I!? It has yet to
>be found!”.

Name calling is all you folks have left.

>He didn’t even know that the gas chamber in Auschwitz I
>(main camp) was described in this numbering system as
>Krema I.

As it has already been explained by holohuggers that the numbering
system is arbitrary I can not see what point you are trying to make.

It is also rather interesting that the holohuggers hide behind this
arbitrary system in that Krema I refers to a crematoria rather than to
any reconstructed gas chamber based upon an artist’s conception.

>This is like some “World War II expert” who never heard
>of Hiroshima.

>I’m quite sure this imbecile was, indeed, Rassinier. Post
>e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy.

>But then, Roberts also takes Fred Leuchter’s article
>about Birkenau seriously. This is the article in which
>Leuchter got so confused trying to explain the “gassing
>cellar” letter from Bischoff, that he ended up claiming
>that Bischoff didn’t want the corpses to freeze, so he
>oredered them kept in the hot furnace room.

>I’m not joking. Leuchter actually said this, and Roberts
>probably believes him (otherwise, why did he post the stuff?).

>-Danny Keren.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:31:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 7:34:00 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:28:49 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
>>me in any manner.

>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.

>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>>will get down to cases on my terms.

>> There is nothing in between.

>> I hope you folks come to understand this.

>Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>his terms.

>I have to ask: where are all our free speech advocates in all this?

You should have asked my terms instead. But then you are able to read
as you know my terms are stated in what you quote.

>Why have free speech advocates David Thomas, Jean-Francois Beaulieu,
>and Tom Moran publicly defended this practise? Where is Richard
>Widmann with his thought crime archive? Where are all the revisionists
>who complain so long and loud about censorship?

Perhaps they are enjoying seeing the holohuggers get a taste of their
own. The squealing is still very loud.

>Is this the Open Debate on the Holocaust that we have all been waiting
>for?

I was under the impression that it was for holohuggers to call people
nazis and anti-semitic and the like. Where did you get your idea as to
what it is for?

More to the point, it is for the discussion of revision, not the
holocaust. It is not the place to go over the same tired old story over
and over again.

It is also not the place for the Gang of Six to try to silence people
who do not have the correct beliefs.

>Matt Giwer announces his intention to prevent discussion and not a
>peep out of our free speech advocates?

When did you suddenly take an interest in the subject?

>Your silence is telling. Your hypocrisy is appalling.

Your squealing is deafening.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 11:18:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45553 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: Frauds are us
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:40:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 9:43:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

The holohuggers are presenting these six pictures on Nizkor as being
evidence of people having by burned alive. Yet anyone can look at them
and clearly see there is not the least sign of any fire damage on the
bodies or the surroundings. One of these bodies is even wearing a shoe
that shows no sign of fire damage.

If they will sink to this level of obvious fraud, what are they doing in
the rest that they push?

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 13:45:11 PDT 1996
Article: 11011 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:48:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]n.co.uk> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:50:46 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Phil Edwards wrote:

>Final replies to Giwer, number 2 of 2.

>Giwer, the Nazi-sympathiser, liar, troller and all round Bad Egg wrote:
>>
>> The problem of course in doing this is any attempt to deal with what
>> happened on any level other than “evil Nazis” runs into the claim that
>> it is in some inexplicable manner anti-semitic. Yet we find the only
>> basis for “evil” is what they did to the Jews and because of what they
>> did to the Jews they were evil.

>Read some history, for crying out loud.

>Even before 1933 the Nazis abducted, beat up, murdered and generally
>terrorised their political and other “enemies” on a large scale –

If you will read some history you will find that most of the splinter
parties engaged in such activities. Germany was on the verge of civil
war for a decade.

>behaviour which they carried out on a national level after 31/1/33.
>That’s without getting into Hitler’s duplicity as a statesman, Himmler’s
>speeches about the Slavs, the “euthanasia” programme, etc, etc. If you
>left the Jews out of the picture completely there’d be plenty of evidence
>to convict the Nazis of “evil”.

Euthansia have been a matter of public debate since there has been
public debate. It is generally accepted at the personal level, such as
Kavorkian is doing. The most famous recent case of it is Jackie
Kennedy.

It that case euthanasia was being carried out on those who were already
wards of the state.

As for Himmler’s rhetoric, it is called rhetoric.

>As for the “inexplicable” character of Nazi anti-semitism, there were a
>dozen other right-wing, nationalist, anti-semitic political groups in
>post-WWI Germany; anti-semitism (the word in its original form,
>”anti-semitismus”, was coined in Germany) may be difficult to understand
>rationally but it was _there_, it was a cultural fact.

Coined in Austria actually. But in fact all of Europe had had some form
and degree of it for centuries. It was a “christian” thing, not a
German thing.

>> The subject stands out as unique among all the things to discuss in
>> history, this one is forbidden.

>Try saying “the French won the battle of Waterloo” or “Abraham Lincoln
>was Chinese” and see how far you get.

How about saying “What if” the above? That is all that I have proposed.

When you’ve finished doing that,
>ring up the relatives of Jeffrey Dahmer’s victims and tell them he was
>misunderstood. Then you might have an inkling of why Holocaust
>revisionism is not a good idea.

Excuse me but since when do the emotions of others determine what can
and can not be discussed?

>> Abusive and nearly literal terrorist
>> tactics being used to stop anyone from saying anything that they do not
>> want to be said.

>Congratulations, Giwer; you’ve lasted several days without referring to
>”them”. Don’t bother explaining, we know _just_ who you mean.

In that group I include McVay, OBC, a christian. But if you took a look
at alt.revisionism you know that. I am talking about an organized
conspiracy on that NG to prevent any such discussion. That is why they
have started to show up here.

>> But to get ahead of the obvious one, WHAT IF people were not to believe
>> in the holocaust? Would the Nazis or some similar organization rise and
>> again and if so, how?

>I used to find it interesting, even slightly cheering in a grotesque way,
>that neo-Nazis advocated just about everything else the Nazis did but
>denied the Holocaust – as if even _they_ had a limit. Then I saw a
>neo-Nazi slogan: “The Holocaust was a hoax – let’s make it real”. I hope
>that answers your question.

Yes, you refuse to consider the question. Yet, I can direct you to a
web site that make essentially that claim.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 13:45:12 PDT 1996
Article: 11012 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Who Would the Germans Have tried as ‘War Criminals?’
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:56:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:58:44 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

“Ian C. Strachan” wrote:

>Don’t know if this has been covered already, or if it should be in
>soc.history.war.world-war-II
>Anyway;
>There was an interesting thread on the latter recently about the
>Nuremberg trials, and it occurred to me to wonder,
> if Germany had defeated Britain at some point after, say, 1941,
> which of the defeated leaders would have been tried as war criminals?

Obviously everyone involved from the top down in bombing Dresden. That
was clearly a war crime of the first magnitude.

Certainly everyone in the US involved in interning Japanese-Americans
would have been punished in some manner.

> My guess would be that the Air Staff, particularly the higher
>echelons of the RAF Bomber Command,, would have been arraigned on
> charges of terrorization. Their declared aim, after all, was to
> break the morale of the German people by ‘area bombing’.

> On the other hand, i’ll speculate it is unlikely that no British Army
>officer would have been tried.

>As to which of the defeated political leaders, well, i await your
>comments with interest.

And then of course in the flush of victory, every bit of war propaganda
would be elevated to fact and people hung for it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 13:46:51 PDT 1996
Article: 74 of alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:35:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 1:37:53 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55508 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:74

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc; emailed “FYI” to various
>people whom Giwer calls “hijackers” and several pro-free-speech
>acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.

Do NOT duplicate NG posts as EMAIL. I am getting very tired of
repeating this.

I would presume, LOUDLY PRESUME, that anyone supporting what I have done
will point out in that same NG that the Gang of Six and their teat
suckers were doing exactly the same thing and are now only whining
because they lost to a low IQ type like myself.

>Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
>alt.revisionism and “make it useless” to everyone with whom he disagrees.
>He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
>volume. Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!

Thank you. I always appreciate a compliment for being a quick study.
You folks taught me well.

But you should be willing to acknowledge that a low IQ type like myself
did it single handed. The next time you want a fair fight, bring more
friends. A lot more.

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>wrote (quoted in its entirety):

>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>: >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>:
>: >>Heck, since Dan Keren is using retreads, I may as well do the same:
>:
>: >Dvd, I don’t think there is any need to justify using material that
>: >has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out here
>: >just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
>: >informing any new comers to alt.rev.
>:
>: I think it is an outstanding policy to return floods of reposts with
>: floods of reposts.
>:
>: After all the holohuggers think they own this conference. It is about
>: time they learned better. After all if a low IQ person such as I can do
>: what two of them now have said I have done, if everyone starts doing
>: this we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
>: revisionism.
>:
>: That is, make it useless to the hijackers.

>Nizkor will continue to maintain an archive on this net abuser’s tactics
>and goals at:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

That is right, hijacker. It is going back to talk of revisionism as it
was intended. If you want to talk revision, join in. If you want to
talk orthodoxy, get your own conference.

Perhaps I will start inviting the orthodox here so they can be
deprogrammed. It will be good for them.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 16:19:10 PDT 1996
Article: 45574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:42:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:43:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[Followup = alt.revisionism]

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>
>[About Ken McVay]

># Actually he is very much in favor of free speech. He simply
># wants to deport those who exercise it so they can speak freely
># some place else.

>To the best of my knowledge, Mr. McVay does not at all support
>deporting anyone.

>Unless you can prove that he does, we will have another proof that
>you are a pathological liar.

I was unaware he supported Canadian citizenship for Zundel.

May I quote you?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 16:19:11 PDT 1996
Article: 45575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:30:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:32:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>I suggest we start a list of people who will stop responding to Matt
>>Giwer:

>Giwer’s still here? Still posting? (Gotta love that trn KILL file.)

Quite interesting that you would occasionly post to me if in fact you
have such a thing in effect. You will have to be more consistent than
you are to think this one is going to fly.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
…. When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 16:19:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45582 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:23:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>Your conclusions carry no weight save to you and to your fellow
>>holohuggers. But you know that.

>Save? From what? From the eternal abyss, because we are
>unbelievers?

That is another of your problems.

>** Mr. Giwer is in no way qualified to express himself in a rational way or to
>** support his inane claims with any historical evidence. If pressed to do so,
>** he will retreat to the point “I don’t need to proof anything because this is
>** my opinion”.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 16:19:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45584 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Teblinka [was g*werspam Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’]
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:05:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Rich Graves)
>>writes:
>>
>>>>
>>>>The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less
>>baroque
>>>>than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in
>>WW2.
>>>
>>>What point? That some Jews might have believed the story that they were
>>>being “resettled”? Or at the very least told this story to loved ones
>>left
>>>behind? I see no point in refuting that point.
>>>
>>>But is there any evidence whatsoever that Jews actually were “resettled”?
>>
>>>There’s quite a bit of evidence that “resettlement” was a ephemism for
>>>murder. Why would the Nazis “resettle” their sworn enemies along the
>>>fragile supply lines on the Eastern Front? Say what you will about
>>>Hitler’s prowess as a military genius, but somehow that doesn’t seem
>>>rational, unless Jews were being “resettled” into mass graves.
>>
>>RIch, I have _no doubts_ that many _did_ end up in mass graves for one
>>reason or another. The point is that these postcards and letters were
>>sent _after_ these people were in Treblinka, from locations like Minsk,
>>Smolensk, and Kiev. Nobody, except a conventionalist, ever pretended that
>>the history of the Holocaust was easy, or simplistic.

>I have come to believe that resetlement was the initial view of the
>Nazi government. I do believe at this moment in time that Madagasgar
>was thought to be a real posibility. I also beleive that the Battle of
>Britian changed that. But I also beleive the leadership was
>responsible for the initial orders that resulted in Treblinka,
>Auschwitz, and other camps.

You have come to believe? Why do you not simply read the plan in the
Wannsee Protocol so you will know what the plan was? Lebensraum,
remember? A German Reich stretching to the Urals and Jews transported
to the east of that.

>He who laughs last thinks slowest.

Some day you will get the holocaust joke.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 16:19:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45587 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Teblinka (sic!)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:18:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Rich Graves)
>writes:

>>>
>>>The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less
>baroque
>>>than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in
>WW2.
>>
>>What point? That some Jews might have believed the story that they were
>>being “resettled”? Or at the very least told this story to loved ones
>left
>>behind? I see no point in refuting that point.
>>
>>But is there any evidence whatsoever that Jews actually were “resettled”?

>>There’s quite a bit of evidence that “resettlement” was a ephemism for
>>murder. Why would the Nazis “resettle” their sworn enemies along the
>>fragile supply lines on the Eastern Front? Say what you will about
>>Hitler’s prowess as a military genius, but somehow that doesn’t seem
>>rational, unless Jews were being “resettled” into mass graves.

>RIch, I have _no doubts_ that many _did_ end up in mass graves for one
>reason or another. The point is that these postcards and letters were
>sent _after_ these people were in Treblinka, from locations like Minsk,
>Smolensk, and Kiev. Nobody, except a conventionalist, ever pretended that
>the history of the Holocaust was easy, or simplistic.

Ah, yes, Pure Nazi Evil explains everything.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 17:23:32 PDT 1996
Article: 11069 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:01:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Alfie Urencio Del Río wrote:

>Gumby wrote:
>>
>> Is there any record of democratic nations having gone to war with each
>> other? Aside from the case of the Civil War, have there been any other
>> cases? Just wondering.

>How about the Mexican-American war, just before the U.S. Civil War?

Actually the U.S. Civil War is the major example.

The Confederacy was a functioning separate government for some four
months before the shooting started.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 17:24:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45595 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:52:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45595 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55663

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>>[snip]

>>>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>member of this so-called “Gang of Six.”

>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.

>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.

>> I got the contributor’s list from Nizkor. Tell them to take you off of
>>it if you do not want the honor. Until they take you off, don’t
>>complain to me.

>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.

There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to plan
how to deal with people. It is clearly implied that it is the Nizkor
gang. As they appear to all have the new approach the next day, the
posts have been confirmed.

When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
brush. Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 17:24:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45597 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:19:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]
>>
>>>: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>>>: that is your problem.
>>
>>>It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>>>*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>>>arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?
>>
>> I have presented EXACTLY as much evidence as you have for you imbecile
>>little holocaust, eyewitness testimony. If mine is no good, yours is no
>>good.

> What about documents? I believe you called the Wannsee Protocol
>evidence when you wanted to argue it said nothing about gassing. (Of
>course, neither Danny Keren – whom you falsely stated posted the German
>version – nor Gordon McFee, who actually was the one who did it – ever
>said it did.)

> So let’s talk documents. Let’s start with one about gas vans which
>was apparently affirmed by Rauff in a deposition in Chile, where (I
>believe) he was safe from extradition. You seem to conveniently forget
>about that one. You diverted attention with a specious comment about
>translation which you were not qualified to make. But you never addressed
>the substance. Would you care to do so now? Or will you go back to your
>claim that there is nothing but testimony, even though you have reason to
>know it is false?

How about physical evidence? Where are any of those hundreds of “gas
wagons” you folks are always talking about? No one appears to have
found any of those either. However they have found thousands of gas
wagons powered by CO from wood.

The “documents” are of dubious value when there is no physical evidence.
It is sort of like find documents of a car that was never manufactured.

As to your testimony, I have testimony about them too. Whoever made up
one of them didn’t get the word that it was supposed to be exhaust gas
when he warned people not to get too close while it was in operation.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 19:30:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45625 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first “denier” was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:18:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4qi8c4$a[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>>Ostrov) writes:
>>
>>>
>>> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
>>material
>>> over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
>>consciousness
>>>
>>>
>>
>>We should be constantly reminded of the Nizkor credo.

>Not everyone here, alan, is part of Nizkor. Get it?

It is hard to tell.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 19:30:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45626 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In re: Kurt Gerstein
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:37:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>>1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
>>per day for Treblinka.
>>
>> But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
>>today’s slightly less absurd numbers.

>I’m not sure what you find so “absurd” about these numbers. You
>of course neglect to point out that these figures were reported
>by Gerstein as having been given by Gruppenfuhrer Odilo Globocnik
>on August 17, 1942. The figure for Belzec is explicitly noted as
>”capacity”; the daily average given is 11,000. Gerstein does not
>assert that these daily totals obtained throughout the war.

There is precisely one identified building that you can see and touch at
Belzec. Witnesses may claim what they want, they always do. It might
hold about 100 people. A loading, gassing, unloading, get the bodies
out of sight of the next batch would take at least two hours. That is
1200, tops, best case.

That an incredible number comes either first or second hand leaves it
still incredible.

And the building in fact appears to be a pre-Degesh style delousing
chamber in any event.

>>2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
>>August1942.

>Again, Gerstein did not speak from personal knowledge, but passed
>on the story of a visit from Hitler and Himmler (Himmler did
>indeed visit Majdanek) related by Globocnik.

Hitler did not. It further illustrates we have a collection of rumors,
no facts.

>>3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
>>6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.
>>
>> Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.

>Big giggle there, huh, Matt?

Yes.

>>4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
>>submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”
>>
>> Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.

>The shearing of victims’ hair is well attested in many sources,
>and I personally saw a collection of such hair at Auschwitz.
>Another giggle for you, Matt.

Look at the words in quotes this time. And such hair shearing is common
any place people have to live in close proximity. There is nothing
sinister about it. The stupid stuff in in the quotes.

One would think human hair is the most versatile substance known as it
appears to have been used for so many things. Doormats were popular but
so was stuffing mattresses, yet it always appears to have been found in
the camps along with everything else.

>>5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
>>even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.
>>
>> Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
>>more

>Indeed there is. Here are excerpts from Gerstein’s actual
>statement: “Everybody was naked, men, women, and children. The
>cripple had been obliged to let their prosthetic apparatusses and
>went along supported by others.” (The translation from Gerstein’s
>German statement appears not to have been done by a native
>speaker of English, since it includes quite a few typos,
>grammatical gaffes, and strange variations of geographical
>names.)

So there is no problem save with the english translation?

>>Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
>>says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”
>>
>> The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.

>Not terribly. What Gerstein actually reported: “I was told: ‘Of
>course, they have to wait outside, whatever the weather is, even
>in winter.’ I had not yet put a question and seemed to be most
>interested, when a silly word escaped my lips: ‘They will get
>death, waiting naked outside.’ A SS man answered me in his
>dialect: ‘Well they are here for that purpose.'”

Again the problem appears to be with the translation but this raises
another problem. They can not have been waiting outside else they would
have known what was happening, seeing the bodies being taken out and all
that.

>>6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
>>meters!
>>
>> Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
>>human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
>>matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
>>reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?

>Not quite. You neglect to point out that Gerstein specified that
>over half were children. Is it possible that, say, 400 emaciated
>children and 300 emaciated adults could be crowded into an
>average space of, say, 4′ x 20″ x 4″? (Yes, Matt, that is indeed
>”a cube 15.8 inches on a side.”)

Your math please? Specific calculations, not hand waving.

The method for children below does not permit averaging in for children.

And as for the emaciated, these were the ones shipped in to be executed
immediately. No ematiation permitted.

>This is the Gerstein account, again in translation: “The rooms
>were getting full. ‘Load them well’ ordered WIRTH. The people
>were treading on each other’s feet. About 7 or 8 hundred people
>in a room of 25,2m. by 45,3m. [sic!] I resumed: more than a half
>were children, so the average weight was around 30 kg., i.e.
>there was in each room about 25.250 kg. ‘of man’. WIRTH was
>right: it was possible to make enter 750 persons in a room of
>45,3m.–with the SS whips.” The writer (translator) is obviously
>following Gerstein in using commas where we would use decimal
>points, and periods where we would use commas, as do Europeans
>generally. I must suppose, even so, that the room dimensions here
>are garbled: where before we have what seems to be unreasonably
>little space, here there would be more than a square meter per
>person, which makes Gerstein’s description ridiculous. I’m going
>to try to get a copy of Gerstein’s original German to straighten
>this out.

I have never seen that size room in any reference to this story. It is
also unclear what you, or someone, are quoting and what you are saying.
Please post the entire translation without commentary.

>>7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
>>according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
>>takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.
>>
>> And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
>>oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
>>exhaust.

>Reading comprehension, Matt: it took 32 minutes of gassing to
>*complete* the killing. It indeed seems quite possible that some
>may have died before the gassing even started; it was probably
>hard to tell in the circumstances. It is not clear that the rooms
>were airtight; this would not really have been necessary with
>diesel exhaust.

It would take hardly 30 minutes to run out of oxygen. Beyond that in a
more complete version of the story, screaming starts as soon as the
engine starts. Far from dead when it starts.

>>8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
>>about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
>>especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
>>the Nazis bad stock.

>Not quite. “According to my trustworthy documents, I estimate the
>amount of defenseless men and women and children murdered by
>HITLER and HIMMLER to about 20 millions.

Different versions have different numbers or no numbers at all. Three
have none, one has 25M, two have 20M. That post came through just
today. It is difficult to put that down to translation differences.

>”The 5 or 6 millions of European jews who were murdered are not
>only in question here, of course, there are also all the
>intellectual society of Czechosloviaquia [sic], and the elite of
>others peoples, f.i. the Serbians, who suffered the same fate.
>The Poles suffered much also, and a few Czechs No. 3–i.e. those
>who were called ‘the biologically useless ones’ who, from the SS
>viewpoint, had no longer the right to live as they could not
>work.”

>Is his estimate high? Probably. But it is an estimate.

>>9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
>>clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high

>Gerstein’s actual statement: “The next day, August 19, 1942,
>Captain WIRTH’s car drove us to TREBLINCA, 120 kms. N/NE of
>VARSOW. The installation resembled, though less important, BELCEC
>camp: 8 gas-rooms and several high heaps of bags, clothes and
>linen.” Whence these 35-meter mountains, I have no idea.

A different translation apparently. The lack of consistency is a
separate point of interest.

>>10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
>>where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
>>in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
>>children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.>quote>

>> A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
>>fetish.

>Before you ejaculate at the thought, Matt, I should point out
>that there is a word “tampon” in French which has a considerably
>more general meaning than its cognate in English. The English
>text of Gerstein’s German statement:

>”The most horrible camps were not BELSEN or BUCHENWALD;
>_AUSCHWITZ_ and _MAUTHAUSEN_ were much worse and millions of
>human beings perished in the gas-chambers and -cars (mobile gas-
>chambers). In AUSCHWITZ alone, millions of children were killed,
>by means of a pad of prussic acid held under the nose.”

In any event it clearly shoots down the statement, whoever made it, that
children accounted for getting so many people into the room.

As for a pad or anything else, it means the person doing the
administering was being replaced rather rapidly due to cyanide
poisoning.

>Note that it is not stated that the mobile gas-chambers were at
>Auschwitz or Mauthausen. Gerstein is simply trying to give some
>idea of the scope of the slaughter.

>As to the pads (tampons, if that raises your snicker) soaked with
>prussic acid, I find no other reference to killings by this
>method, and therefore assume Gerstein was mistaken, certainly as
>to the frequency of such a method being used. (I won’t go into
>all the imaginative painful ways Mengele and his colleagues used
>to murder prisoners, including children.) I would imagine that at
>the right concentration and with the proper protective gear,
>however, such a method could be used; Gerstein certainly knew
>about the handling of prussic acid.

It would have to be kept in a bath of ice at a minimum I would suggest.
Given the skin adsorption of the vapors we are not talking about
protective clothing but an environmental suit kept at positive pressure.
As to Gerstein’s knowledge, that is not in evidence.

>>>2) What is the source of your information about Kurt Gerstein?
>>
>> You can search for it the same as I did.

>You don’t understand, Matt. I have no doubt that any number of
>moronic web pages include inaccurate or distorted versions of
>Gerstein’s statement. I just wonder whether you uncritically
>accepted this crap like the idiot you are, or did the distorting
>yourself.

As to uncritical, yours depend upon a different translation for the most
part and still leave most of them still in the realm of some sort of
fantasy.

>Oh yeah, about Gerstein’s mysteriously missing body: It was
>buried in a communal grave in the Thiais cemetery in Paris.
>Missing? More bullshit.

Evidence supporting this?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 19:30:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45629 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:20:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 289
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55676 alt.revisionism:45629

[email protected] (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>>>braggadocio about “controlling this conference” [1], and simultaneously
>>>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>>>a response is necessary.
>>
>> You folks posted that I control the conference. I did not start that
>>claim.

>No? Then who did. Please provide checkable references, the way they
>did.

Don’t you ever read this conference?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:18:02 GMT

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

> Total number of articles posted: 1832
> Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
> Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

> Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.

> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM

>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>http://www.cm.org/

>alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

What an idiot.

I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.

Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.

To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
doing and am going to do.

To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
the NG back on track.

You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.

Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

Alec will verify that one if he remembers.

So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
aggrandizing in that manner.

But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.

It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>>>My claim is that Matt Giwer’s intentions are to make alt.revisionism
>>>useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
>>>revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists. I
>>>think I’m on firm ground with this claim, because Mr. Giwer has stated
>>>so himself [2].
>>
>> Excuse me, but you know you folks have bragged about preventing exactly
>>that. That is something you folks have bragged about many times.

>Please give a pointer to the articles in which they did that. If you
>can’t, it will be taken as clear evidence that you’re a liar, just
>making stuff up. You’ll notice that _they_ give pointers with each
>claim.

No, it will simply point out again that you do not read the conference.
But if you want to read it, go do so on DejaNews. That is the response
I am given by Nizkorites. I guess I can use it too, or are there
different rules for me?

>> As you know, you folks are the ones who have bragged about driving
>>people out of alt.revision for years.

>You neglected to mention that they drove people out by refuting the
>bogus arguments of those people, not by making hundreds of kilobytes
>of content-free postings the way you do.

Not in the least. Again, that is only their claim. They tried to drive
me out by harrassing me, my service provider and my family. That is
hardly refutation. I presume those who did leave have their own
interesting stories.

On the other hand, what leads you to believe that you are qualified to
judge?

>> You folks have openly bragged
>>about harrassing people service providers, harrassing them personally,
>>and harrassing their families, as you folks have done to me and mine.

>Once again, you fail to provide evidence. I guess you don’t have any.

DejaNews.

>> But you fail to note the files at Nizkor are heavily censored and
>>altered as part of your planned harrassement campaign.

>Where is your evidence of that alteration? Give examples of the
>original files and their versions.

They admit they are taken out of context. If you keep reading I may
give in and tell everyone how I know the files have been censored.

>> In other words, you fail to admit your posts in this newsgroup are
>>nothing more than another part of your harrassment campaign.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^

>YM “anti-net-abuse”. HTH

And my present ISP with everything they can take out of context and
misquote.

Of course that is what they call debate.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 20:58:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:21:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 7:23:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
>> > fatbroad.
>>
>> People in glass houses should not throw stone.

>Before I forget, the preceeding attatched photo is courtesy of

>http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/index.html

>From down near the bottom of the page, on the fake ID card.

>After all, you must give credit where credit is due, no?

If you had looked harder you could have found something much worse than
that.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 20:58:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45637 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Dahlman of El Lago Texas
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 01:27:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:13:25 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:
>>
>>>If the Holocaust is so ‘true’ and ‘obvious’, then why the need for all
>>>this vitriol,
>>>filthy language, and general nastiness, to put down those who doubt it?
>>
>> What kind of truth needs protecting?

>What kind of truth needs spam-flooding to protect it?

What do you have against my use of taglines?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 20:58:01 PDT 1996
Article: 45640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1) “and that an false statement may be severely punished”
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:54:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:56:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jeff wrote:

>Petrat’s post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from
>the grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been
>prepared in German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US
>Zone of Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful
>of Americans have seen this or any other German “war criminal’s” side of
>the story, I reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:

And this is of course one more example of what can not be told until the
perpetrators are long dead. It is the same in every war.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 22:57:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45647 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:48:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:50:27 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:
>>
>>># Ah, statistics!
>>>#
>>># It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
>>># of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
>>># archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
>>># one response.
>>
>>>I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
>>>as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous
>>>articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
>>>the same article over and over again, dozens of times.
>>
>> I use the articles as sigs. Is that a crime now? Note that most of
>>them are shorter than the mantra you folks delight in using.
>>
>> I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
>>be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
>>The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
>>using as sigs.

> I note that Mr. Giwer has used these alleged sigs in followups to
>articles which could not in any way be called attacks on him.

Or I can simply use them as sigs for no reason other than to have a sig.
Do you have a problem with that?

>> Now where were you when the mantra was being repeated a hundred times a
>>day? Where are you now when there are dozens of threads that consist
>>of nothing but attacks upon me?

> Is it an attack on you to point out what can be demonstrated to
>courtroom standards?

I consider it to be one. I am the one deciding what I append to my
messages. It is not up to you to decide for me.

>> And just what is it that you are objecting to really?
>>
>> Don’t tell me. I know. I do not believe as you do.

> I have no objection to your believing what you wish. But you make
>provably false statements which you know or have reason to know are false
>when you make them. You dishonestly edit. Etc.

It is only if I say what I do not believe that you folks will start into
your standard personal and family harrassment routine.

>>># Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
>>># material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
>>># consciousness by default. (Graber made me do it!!)

>>>It is typical of “revisionists” to confuse third-rate “cynicism”
>>>for intelligence. You’re no exception. BTW, it’s Grabner, not Graber,
>>>which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
>>>world is not enough.

>> Someone must be making you do it. To do so on your own would mean you
>>have to believe it is contributing something to the discussion.

>>>-Danny Keren.

>> Now you see, here is an example of an attack.

> Do you deny making those statements?

Do I deny making anything more than a guess? Yes. It is one document
compared to thousands that make no such reference. The unique is what
needs to be explained with other then PNE. I suggested a morbid sense
of humor. And as you know, there has been absolutely no other
possibility considered by the holohuggers.

And you have missed that upon more careful reading I have suggested that
it is more likely a reference to two different rooms.

>>>–
>>>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>>>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>>>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>>>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.
>>
>> And my response is
>>
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
>>
>>
>>” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>>entrances to the four-story
>>house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
>>the same people were
>>forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>>had to be transferred to one
>>place in the courtyard. ”
>>IMT VII – p.491.
>>
>> See how it goes?

> Yes. How does this address the alleged attack? Do you deny making
>those statements? If not, how can they be an attack?

As I said, when I am attacked, I will attack your precious holocaust.
The choice of the means of response is mine.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another example of a holohugger fraud
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:38:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected].netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:40:17 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>>
>> I would certainly hope that everyone is not as gullible as these people.

> Matty-poo claims he is not gullible. Matty-poo, the master of critical thinking
>beleives that a man can be beaten repeatedly with rib\fle butts, piustol butts, and
>pistol barrels without sustaining injuries.

> Will he explain this medical miracle? Or will he just call names?

That is still only your claim.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:17 PDT 1996
Article: 45667 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:46:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 7:48:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>I have not personally visited this huge Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.

>One part of me wants to out of curiosity, but another part is repelled by
>the very idea.
>It seems to me that these gigantic holocaust things appear to celebrate
>the Holocaust
>more as a religious event than as something historical.

>And it also bothers me a great deal that although the Holocaust occurred
>in Europe
>over a half-century ago, and happened to and by non-Americans, it is now
>funded by
>American taxpayers and it takes up a big amount of real estate in our
>nation’s capital.

>What I’m trying to convey here is that the Museum is more of a religious
>monument
>than anything else, and that is a violation of Church and State, is it
>not?

>Comments, anyone?

>And how can we have this thing un-funded, and even removed from our
>capitol?

They will tell you that the charter says that is it not a religious
monument, so there. Of course it is difficult to understand their
difficulty in finding a historian to be the Director.

If it belongs any place in the world, it belongs in Auschwitz where
people can do a side by side with the evidence.

It has nothing to do with this country and does not belong here.

It has nothing to do with American history whatsoever.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:18 PDT 1996
Article: 45668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:00:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>The polarization on this board here has to do with two themes: the
>>_extent_ of gassing as a means of execution, and the _intentionality_ of
>>the German Nazi program. My skepticism about the extent of either of
>>these positions has been clearly articulated. Since I, for one, have
>>neither the time nor the resources to settle either issue one way or the
>>other to my own complete satisfaction I have tended to shy away from these
>>issues. And my reward is to be accused of whitewashing.

>No, your goal is to get the Nazi leadership off the hook. This is
>called Hitler washing. So you join David Irving in your quest.

Why would anyone care if Hitler were gotten off of the hook?

Nothing would change if he were.

So why do you care?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45670 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:21:53 GMT
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>One of my sig’s reads:

> To have compassion on animals is one of the laws of Moses.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) cannot refute my conclusions and
>decides to try to bait me instead:

> Moses never existed. There were no commandments. Jews were not
> chosen. They were self annoited.

>And Mr. Giwer’s IQ is not 163. Mr. Giwer is not interested in the
>truth. Mr. Giwer gets his kicks from provoking people to anger — it
>is an inappropriate way of dealing with his own repressed rage.

You have been reading too much Psychology Today. Or do you fancy
yourself an armchair Freud?

The truth is there is the Israelites were self-annointed. There is
nothing to their damn fool beliefs or any other religious beliefs. Is
that too hard for you to deal with?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45681 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:01:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>I’m sure the fact that diesel exhaust cannot kill people will come as a
>great comfort to the families and friends of a Redwood City teenager who
>was reported to have committed suicide by sitting in a running car in a
>closed garage.

Would you please post the article where it says

1) The engine was a diesel

2) That it was outside of the garage when this occurred.

When you do so, you may have a case when you demonstrate that it
occurred in the time frame reported by all “eyewitnesses” of 20-30
minutes.

Give it up. Your position is absurd.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:20 PDT 1996
Article: 45682 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:13:48 GMT
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[email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>[email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) wrote:

>Once again I am forced to ask the patience of those in the soc.history.
>what-if group for pretending that there is a case to answer. This post
>addresses some matters of basic historical method, but is tangential at
>best to AH.

>>> The revisionist claim requires disregarding the evidence of literally
>>>thousands, of eyewitnesses, both camp survivors and Nazis from Speer and
>>>Eichmann on down. Either they were all lying, in which case they are part
>>>of a vast conspiracy, or their testimony is faked, in which case a vast
>>>conspiracy would need to be responsible. (There is a hell of a lot of
>>>physical evidence which would also have to be faked, but concentrate on
>>>the testimony.)

>[response cut:]
>> First off there is literally no physical evidence of gassing.

>We have the buildings and the bodies. That suffices.

Actually you do not. The bodies were supposed to have been cremated.
The ashes have never been found.

The verbal descriptions of gassings are of zero value in identifying the
unique features of the buildings that are identified as the “right ones”
today. They make no mention of any feature that could identify the
building.

>> Second, it would be good for you to some day look into the “testimony”
>>of these people.

>There are, as I said, *thousands* of witnesses. I deliberately avoided
>specializing in 20th-century history so that I wouldn’t have to study
>this kind of thingc; I don’t plan to start now.
>I _have_ read the testimony of a couple of camp survivors and of Adolf
>Eichmann. Their stories are compatible.

Good sir, if you have the time I can send you at least a dozen stories
that are not only incompatible with each other but with physical law. I
can send you testimony that was introduced at Nuremberg that is clearly
absurd and no one believes today.

I can document reductions in the estimates for various camps that are
greater than the total number accepted today yet the total number for
all these years has never changed and NO camp numbers have been
increased.

>> Third, the eyewitnesses testified to all sorts of things that were
>>introduced into evidence but in the form of unsworn type written
>>material. From that we have vast amounts of absolutely absurd things
>>that come right from WW II propaganda.

>Virtually no historical evidence comes in the form of sworn testimony;
>almost all is “unsworn type written material.” This is another red herring.

This was introduced as testimony at Nuremberg and used to convict. I am
taling about the trials themselves and the “evidence” used.

> I note in passing that an awful lot of 20th-century history is
>”absolutely absurd,” except that it happened. Stalin really did purge
>millions of people who were no conceivable threat to his position; the
>Khmer Rouge really did attempt to depopulate every city in Cambodia; Idi
>Amin really did send out patrols with orders to kill everyone they saw.
>Hitler really did order the “physical destruction” of European Jewry, and
>really did plan to make the ghetto in Prague “a museum of the extinct
>Jewish race.”

The other examples are based upon actually having the physical evidence.
Despite your claim, we do not have the bodies or the buildings.

>> Fourth, eyewitness testimony is good for about four weeks at the
>>outside. That is the way the mind works.

>Nonsense.

Consult any work on interviewing witnesses to a crime. You will find
otherwise.

>> Fifth, eyewitnesses also had motivation, revenge.

>This is why I referred to the Nazis as well as the victims as
>eyewitnesses. It is hard to see what possible motivation Eichmann had
>for lying under oath to the Israeli court that tried him. (It is also
>odd that *not* *one* camp survivor agrees with the revisionists.)

I am not aware of what specific Eichmann testimony you are referring to.
He was a secretary. And as to his trial, we know that anyone accused of
a war crime in Israel is guilty. Witness Demjanjuk.

>> There are many more problems than this and the weight of them requires
>>us to look at the physical evidence first and then see if we can find
>>any testimony that supports it.

> Historians simply do not work this way. An enormous body of coherent
>evidence, from many different sources and more than one perspective,
>cannot be simply dismissed with vague references to the unreliability of
>eyewitnesses. If it could, we would be forced to disbelieve in, say, the
>English Civil War, let alone the existence of most major historical
>figures from Socrates to FDR.

The testimony is quite incoherent. For example:

========

4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?

No one believes the soap story today yet here is an eyewitness claiming
to have seen a shed full of it. Soapmaking evidence was introduced at
Nuremberg.

Another example…

========

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

This is considered pure nonsense today as it should have been at the
time but the last line is a reference to the volume and page of the
Intnational Military Tribunal. There are many, many more examples.

>>> If you claim that all that evidence is lies or deception, how do you
>>>know that all the people who claim to have met FDR weren’t lying? It
>>>wouldn’t be any more difficult to fake the one than the other.

>> We have physical evidence for the existance of FDR. We do not have to
>>rely upon testimony. That is the huge difference.

> Absurd. The only “physical evidence” is more forms of records —
>film clips and radio recordings. Such evidence can be faked, rather more
>easily than getting thousands of people to tell compatible stories.
>Perhaps I should have referred to, oh, Ben Franklin instead.

Save that we do not have any similar physical evidence, faked or not, of
any mass gassing of anyone. The mass gassing is entirely based upon
testimony. It is as though, for your analogy, thousands of people were
claiming to know about a particular president for which there is no
physical evidence whatsoever, even faked. No film clips, no pictures,
no official records, nothing.

>>> Arguments about details like crematoria are of no significance
>>>whatsoever compared to this question. They are, in fact, a way of
>>>attempting to cloud the issue.

>I stand by this statement.
>[snip]

There is no argument about details. There is the complete lack of
evidence of any mass gassing.

>>> I will not participate in any further such attempts. To clarify my
>>>position, I will not respond to any posts in this thread which do not
>>>explicitly address the point I raise above.

>> Which I have done.

>You did. And I answered. I think any reasonable reader will agree that
>I have gone rather further than required by any standard of fairness
>(those who do not are invited to so inform me by e-mail). This is quite
>enough of my time.

As you will. But you should post the physical evidence of mass gassing
some time or realize there is none.

>Sir, I do not know you.

So?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45684 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the parallels
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:39:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>I agree with Matt Giwer’s feelings about the horror stories that Jews
>indulge in.

>I think that for Jews to be so fixated on this Holocaust thing, and to
>actually make it a part of their religion, is pathological. What does it
>do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to constantly harp
>on dead Jews and cooked Jews and gassed Jews and steamed Jews and cremated
>Jews?

>All these survival accounts and tales they spin, it could be neuroticizing
>the entire Jewish younger generation.

We are dealing with the younger generation here. The results are
obvious.

Above it, it’s filling their minds
>with hate towards Germans and towards ALL people who aren’t Jewish. Is it
>a good thing for Jews to be taught to hate non-Jews? Isn’t that what the
>rabbis are now doing with the Yom Hashoah rituals?

That is pushing it a bit. The hatred is towards all people who will not
defer to this aspect of the Jewish religion as being true.

>It’s a hatefest really. Jews need to learn to be part of the wider
>community and stop thinking of themselves as a persecuted little ghetto
>within it. They need to learn to be tolerant and civil towards others,
>instead of the hate-filled bigots that they’re being trained to become by
>their rabbis and by this fixation on the Holocaust in general.

They need to grow up and get over the past. It is truly history. Not
one thing they can do will change the past or prevent it from happening
again.

Wallowing in martyrdom is something they picked up from the Christians.

Would you believe that at one point I predicted the analogy would be so
strong that the Jews would claim they sung hymns on the way to gassing?

Would you believe it was hardly two weeks later someone made that clam
(chants of course.)?

Talk about blind luck. Christians went willingly to their deaths. Jews
offered no resistance. Both were presecuted for religious beliefs.
Both were only guilty of worshipping the one true god.

It is not as though they had to invent anything to create the mold for
the holocaust. It has been laying around unadapted for 1600 years.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45686 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:23:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

You should have left this to someone following the discussion.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>Deception alert! If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is
>>>>>>>>>fat, then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories. Mr. Giwer has
>>>>>>>>>no justification to multiply this number by .1.
>>
>>>>>>>> Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
>>>>>>>>the remaining 10% as fat. Thus the justification.
>>
>>>>>And with 75% of water, what would you say ? Some justification to 90%
>>>>>instead of 75% (65% is more often admitted) ? Do you even have a clue,
>>>>>somewhat that the fat is concerned with the water’s rate ?
>>
>>>>>> The floor is yours, Dr. Green.
>>
>>>> It was an AGREED upon place to start from when WE started this
>>>>some months ago. Would you like to start over with different
>>>>agree upon assumptions? If you, you first.
>>
>>>I don’t agree. You understimated the amount of water, what is 65-70%
>>>for extracellular and at most 80%.
>>
>>>The fat is estimated with several ways, and the 18% from Mr Green is
>>>among the lowest, and didn’t suppose that some water was mixed with
>>>it. With isotopics methods you can have near twice this number.
>>
>> Which in any event would result in 18% of 20%. He objected to
>>that multiplication as you know if you were reading the thread. He, on
>>the other hand and in light of where we started, wanted both 10% (here
>>20%) non-water AND 18% fat.

> Deceptive figuring. The calorie value of fat is computed on the
>weight with the water in it.

> I will type this very slowly for Mr. Giwer’s benefit.

> If you take one gram of the white stuff from the side of your raw
>steak, that includes the water and all.

> When you burn it, you get whatever the calorie value of a gram of fat
>is regardless of what the percentage of water in that gram is.

> You are not entitled to take the energy value of a gram of fat with
>the water in, then pretend that this is really the energy value per gram
>for waterless fat. To compute caloric value, you may not reduce the
>amount of fat by 82%. Or if you do, you must multiply its energy output
>per unit of mass by 1/.18 = 5.56. Mr. Giwer is changing the definition
>of “fat” in the middle of the game in order to pull a fast one.

The game started with either 80 or 90% water. Of the remaining, only
20% or 10% only say 20% of that can be fat in the human body.

> Down in my refrigerator I have a package of Polish sausage. One link
>is 85g. Fat grams are listed as 22. Thus it is 25.9% fat. Pretending no
>water is introduced during the sausage making process,

And rather than be interested in added water in your sausage, consider
the blood was drained from the animal before processing. Call it a wash
for the meat part.

if this is Mr.
>Giwer’s “waterless” fat, that makes the sausage at most 74.1% water not
>counting the protein, etc. Pretty dehydrated cow.

You sausage also lacks bones.

> Clearly this fat counts the water in it. Fat calories are listed as
>190, but dietary calories are really kilocalories so we have 190,000
>calories in 22g of waterlogged fat = 8636 cal/g.

Fat is added to sausage in the form ground fat, so by weight it still
contains water. Thus by weight, it still contains water.

> Call it 90% water, multiply by .1 to get 2.2g of dehydrated fat, but
>unless you claim the ability to burn water and get energy out of it,
>according to the observant Jews at Hebrew National that 2.2g of dehydrated
>fat still clocks in at 190,000 calories. I can not change that and
>neither can Mr. Superscientist. Unless he thinks those non-atheist Jews
>are lying to the goyim at the FDA.

But I can find the right inputs and then be able to make the correct
calculations.

> Or just go the easy route and take the 240 [kilo]calories for the 85g
>link. Now call it 90% water. We have 76.5g of water to cook off. We
>have 240,000 calories to do it with. I will even be nice to Mr. Giwer
>and let him start with a frozen sausage at 0C. Can 240,000 calories heat
>76.5g of water enough to permit ignition of the non-water?

> No doubt Mr. Giwer will object that ordinary people aren’t that fatty.
>Fine by me. Let’s make them 10% fat. Let’s see, 8.5g fat at 8636 cal per
>~= 73,400 cal from the fat alone. The lean portion of the sausage clocks
>in at 63g and 50,000 cal = 794 cal/g of 100% lean meat. Again, those are
>waterlogged grams. 76.5g of lean in the 10% fat sausage ~= 60,700 more
>calories. Again, we have 76.5g of water and now must steam it off in only
>134,100 cal. This could be a toughie. (I am hiding something. Let’s see
>if our superscientist can figure it out.)

Not much hidden here. You are using sausage rather than the assumptions
made for the human body as listed above.

>>>> Want to go through the exercise? Even if you win the first, you
>>>>will lose the second. Green must have finally realized that and
>>>>stopped the exchange. Or he is just laying in wait to continue
>>>>the diversionary issue of bodies burning while trying to keep
>>>>attention from the problem of not enough coke for the bodies
>>>>claimed.

> Handwaving. Go burn my Polish sausage and see what your calculator
>tells you.

I did not need my calculator to know that polish sausage is not a human
body. Go back to the original assumptions and work from there. You
may use a calculator.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45687 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:27:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Sorry I missed much of this previous conversation. Maybe this is what
>you’re looking for: From Elie Wiesel’s book “Night” Just a short
>quote. “Poor devils, you’re going to the crematory.” “He seemed to be
>telling the truth. Not far from us, flames were leaping up from a
>ditch, gigantic flames. They were burning something. A lorry drew up
>at the pit and delivered it’s load–little children. Babies! Yes, I
>saw it–saw it with my own eyes…those children in the flames.
>…Never will I forget that night, the first night in camp, which has
>turned my life into one long night, seven times cursed and seven times
>sealed. Never shall I forget the little faces of the children, whose
>bodies I saw turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky.
>Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever.
>Never shall I forget that nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all
>eternity, of the desire to live.”

>There is much more, but I think this is the question answered.

After learning to believe your own war stories it appears you are able
to believe anything.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45693 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: massacre of 500 guards at Dachau
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:58:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 4:00:45 AM CDT 1996
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Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>The difference is:

>Nazis killed innocent unarmed men, women and children with pride.

>Americans killed guilty unarmed Nazis with shame.

>The two groups of perpetrators are at distant ends of a wide moral
>spectrum.

And in what manner is “innocent until proven guilty dispensed with in
this matter?

The word is murder in either direction.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45707 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The nitty gritty
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:02:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:04:30 PM PDT 1996

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> The number of people who deny the
>>Holocaust, in the sense that millions of Jews perished as a result (direct
>>or indirect) of National Socialist German policies is very small, and I
>>don’t think that it includes more than one or two people _in_ this News
>>Group and certainly _nobody_ in the present discussion.

>Specious. I do not believe giwer has any interest, one way or
>the other. He’s here for the rush. There are many, however,
>who are here to deny the event. Their comments are the
>historical version of “some of my best friends are Jewish,”
>and they deny the event.

Worst enemies, boy, worst enemies.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45710 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Gerstein
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 04:45:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:48:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> There is precisely one identified building that you can see and touch at
>>Belzec.

>Which you have neither seen nor touched.

>> Witnesses may claim what they want, they always do.

>And so may non-witnesses. You always do.

Then you agree to discard all people who are demonstrably not witnesses?
Of course not.

>> One would think human hair is the most versatile substance known as it
>>appears to have been used for so many things. Doormats were popular but
>>so was stuffing mattresses, yet it always appears to have been found in
>>the camps along with everything else.

>Yes, Matt. The fact that human hair was stockpiled is what
>confirms the fact that the Nazis saw it as an exploitable
>resource.

It is also of interest that the huge supplies of it found stored
(stockpiled) indicate it was not being used. It is quite an interesting
problem to address some day.

And of course this does not explain why the objects made of it have not
been found.

>>>Not quite. You neglect to point out that Gerstein specified that
>>>over half were children. Is it possible that, say, 400 emaciated
>>>children and 300 emaciated adults could be crowded into an
>>>average space of, say, 4′ x 20″ x 4″? (Yes, Matt, that is indeed
>>>”a cube 15.8 inches on a side.”)
>>
>> Your math please? Specific calculations, not hand waving.

>The information is all at your disposal. If you are incapable of
>simple multiplication, ask your kid to help you. My understanding
>is that this arcane branch of math is being taught to some third-
>graders. (Did I mention that there are 12″/’? This will help you
>set up the problem.)

I knew you were unablt to do the math. And as you know I have provided
the math step by step, indicating the operation and then providing the
number. But rather, you, who are unable to do the math, will continue
to hand wave.

And you also know that Gerstein said that children were gassed with a
tampon soaked in prussic acid held under the nose so you can not invoke
the volume of children as an excuse for this nonsense.

>> The method for children below does not permit averaging in for children.

>Er, the “below” text referred to Auschwitz. This wasn’t Auschwitz.

Gerstein’s confession is what is under discussion. It is not about
Auschwitz.

>> And as for the emaciated, these were the ones shipped in to be executed
>>immediately. No ematiation permitted.

>Ah. And everyone knows that Jews being shipped in from ghettos were
>fat with bagels, lox and halvah.

We have been over that already in this conference. It has been decided
that they were not ematiated as it is the only way to salvage the claim
of mixing fat and thin in the same Krema. As you know there are very
clear claims to experimenting with mixtures of fat and thin. Therefore,
there were fat people. Sorry about that.

You can not have different truths for different stories.

>>Please post the entire translation without commentary.

>To take a leaf from your book, look it up yourself. You do know
>how to use a library, don’t you? Hint: the source should be
>fairly simple to locate, but it’s not a web page. Gerstein’s
>life has been well documented.

You obviously have it else you would not be pretending to comment upon
what I posted.

But of course we all know you do not have it, have never read it, and
are trying to get away with blowing smoke about it. That is what
holohuggers call debate.

>> As to uncritical, yours depend upon a different translation for the most
>>part and still leave most of them still in the realm of some sort of
>>fantasy.

>Ah. And you depend on a web page to which you are ashamed to give
>the URL. Hey, you read it on the web, so it *must* be the truth,
>right?

I only said that you folks can find it for yourselves. It is certainly
quicker to search the web than to go to the library as you suggest I do.
Why don’t you?

Need help with Yahoo?

>>>Oh yeah, about Gerstein’s mysteriously missing body: It was
>>>buried in a communal grave in the Thiais cemetery in Paris.
>>>Missing? More bullshit.
>>
>> Evidence supporting this?

>Well, I’d say that I’ll post my sources as soon as you’ll post
>yours,

Fine with me.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45712 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: Breakfast for Champions
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:28:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 6:31:21 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

ffNele Abels wrote:

>[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>Your conclusions carry no weight save to you and to your fellow
>>>holohuggers. But you know that.

>[I wrote]

>>Save? From what? From the eternal abyss, because we are
>>unbelievers?

>Damn! The one and only time Giwer actually produced a coherent and
>grammatical English sentence, I had to misread him… 🙂

Your english is improving with practice.

>But this here nethertheless stands:

>** Mr. Giwer is in no way qualified to express himself in a rational way
>or to
>** support his inane claims with any historical evidence. If pressed to
>do so,
>** he will retreat to the point “I don’t need to proof anything because
>this is
>** my opinion”.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:26 PDT 1996
Article: 45714 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another Griswold assertion (was: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:34:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33949 alt.revisionism:45714

[email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>> >> >Please present evidence, Griswold, that:
>> >>
>> >> > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
>> >> > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
>> >> > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau
>> >>
>> >> He told a great story about it. Even recounted the shooting.
>> >Of course
>> >> he was copying from some professionally written material by the quality
>> >> of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.
>>
>> >If by “he” is meant Mr. Ferree, this is yet another assertion without
>evidence.
>>
>> Try Dejanews if you missed it.

>Giwer chooses not to present actual references. As has been pointed out in
>the past, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to
>document it.

And since holohuggers have used DejaNews in place of presenting actual
references. Is that not accepted practice here? When did the rules
change?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45715 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:37:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 6:39:44 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Excuse me, but I must be missing something. Other “revisionists” have
>>>>>posted here – Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
>>>>>Vicksell, et al. And their claims have been addressed. They seem to have
>>>>>given it up. The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
>>>>>J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.
>>>>
>>>> And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off. That is
>>>>what you are missing.
>>
>>> No, you are the one missing something, or pretending to.
>>
>>> Greg Raven was exposed as a liar. It was repeatedly shown that he
>>>posted dishonestly and deceptively edited sources and grossly distorted
>>>paraphrases, and used invalid reasoning and arguments.
>>
>>> Tim McCarthy was shown to have done the same thing to one particular
>>>document, and to have missed something in one of his own claimed sources
>>>that refuted his own theory.
>>
>>> Fritz Berg was shown to have overlooked (at best) a number of issues
>>>of toxicology and misrepresented some things in his own sources.
>>
>>> Bradley Smith was exposed as a hypocrite when he admitted he
>>>introduced the Leuchter Report even though he knew there were flaws in it,
>>>yet criticized Michael Berenbaum for not checking his sources carefully
>>>enough.
>>
>>> Ross Vicksell simply wasn’t capable of debating anything. Every time
>>>you turned around, he had to go ask someone else something.
>>
>>> The were not driven out by namecalling. Tim McCarthy certainly gave
>>>as good as he got from the word go.
>>
>>> They were driven out because they were exposed as dishonest and
>>>hypocritical, and realized that they were not advancing the cause any.
>>
>>> The only difference between you and them is, you don’t seem to mind be
>>>be embarrassed by being caught in hypocrisy or in a lie. That is your
>>>problem, not mine.
>>
>> Thank you for being the first to post the evidence I was looking for.
>>You folks declared victory. You are now repeating the one sided
>>declaration of victory.

> It seems to me the gentlemen who left admitted defeat. Contrary to
>what is claimed, they were met with more than just name-calling (although
>yes, there was some – but you provide your share). They were presented
>with logic and documentation (and I am talking not just about
>documentation of evidence for the orthodox history, but documentation that
>their own cited sources were used deceptively and dishonestly).

> Many of then explicitly said they wanted open debate. That game was
>agreed to. Debate is a game with well-understood rules. One of them is,
>you get caught falsifying your evidence, you lose.

> Who agreed to play your game? That is a relevant distinction.

Debate was not the method here. Personal and family harrassment was the
name of the method here.

In my experience the constant claims of debate ring very hollow.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:24:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 406
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 1:26:20 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >In comparison, the _incineration_ of the Nazi victims of homicidal gassing
>> >at Auschwitz was done with no such restrictions. This can be seen in the
>> >_Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration
>> >Furnace_:
>>
>> >”As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
>> >to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
>> >the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter
>> >20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a
>> >container and set aside to cool…. In the meantime, further corpses can
>> >be introduced one after the other into the chambers.” (_Technique_,
>> >p.136.)
>>
>> >[Note: the operating instruction fo the triple-muffle furnaces are the same.]
>>
>> If there were no such restrictions why did they use the slower method of
>> a standard cremation rather than cheaper and faster incinerators?

>Not only is the Giwer-Troll deaf and dumb, but he is blind as well. The
>Nazis did indeed use “faster incinerators” rather than “the slower method
>of a standard cremation.” This was clearly evidenced in the _Operating
>Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace_. Not
>to mention by eyewitness testimonies that described the continuous
>re-charging of the muffles which mixed the remains of the victims.

>Then, of course, the Nazis used incineration pits, and of course, there
>was the proposed Krema VI….

Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
admit you made it up. There were common trash incinerators around and
there is no mention whatsoever of their ever having been used. You know
that but you will claim to the contrary. That is the power of myth over
your mind.

>> >This clearly depicts an incineration process where the remains of the
>> >victims are clearly mixed with each other. What this means, then, after a
>> >corspes of the previous charge had been consumed to the point where they
>> >fell through the chamotte, the next charge was added, being consumed above
>> >on the chamotte, while the partially consumed remains of the previous
>> >charge(s) were being fully consumed in the ash channel.
>>
>> I do not see that at all. Simply a matter of being less careful with
>> the 5-7 pounds of bone fragments.

>Of course the Giwer-Troll doe not “see” it. After all the Giwer-Troll is
>deaf, dumb, and blind! In licensed civilian crematoria the cremation
>process _never_ allowed the charging of the muffle while the remains of
>another persons were still in the ash channel. This meant that cremations
>could _never_ overlap each other- that one corpse would be on the chamotte
>while the remains of another were in the ash channel.

>This, of course, was not the case in the furnaces of the Kremas at Auschwitz.

We have been over this and the more you repeat your nonsense the more I
will repeat what you claim is my nonsense. The longer you get, the
longer I will get but you will be the cause of it.

>> >What this means is in reality the incineration of the victims didn’t take
>> >just “20 minutes” (or 30 minutes, etc.) but an additional 20 minutes to be
>> >fully consumed in the ash channels of the furnaces. But as this extra 20
>> >minutes didn’t impact the charging into and the incineration of the
>> >corspes in the muffles, it was never, I believe, counted as part of the
>> >incineration cycle-time. So, the actual time a corpse that took “20
>> >minutes” to incinerate was really 40 minutes, while the cycle-time for
>> >charging the muffles with corpses was indeed 20 minutes (or 30 minutes,
>> >etc). Sounds pretty much like “less than one hour” achieved in some
>> >crematory furnaces today….
>>
>> Of course but still the initial burning takes the 2 to 2.5 hours (even
>> today’s average) and at best you are cutting out 20 minutes resulting in
>> maybe 1.5 to 2 hours. You still have a long way to go.

>Nope. The “intial” burning, as in some civilian furnaces, took “less than
>an hour.” About 20-30 minutes in the case of the furnaces at Auschwitz,
>according to witnesses. It is this “intial” burnung that determines the
>how often the muffle are charged, and hence the cycle-time for the
>incineration process.

Agreed, you are making it all up as you go along.

>> >> You are the one supporting 2 kg of coke for each body after the first.
>>
>> >According the Walter Mu”ller, of the engineering firm Allach, in regards
>> >to the fuel consumption of incineration furnaces:
>>
>> >”Mu”ller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use
>> >and increased economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of
>> >coke to start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg. if it had been
>> >used the day before; a second and third incineration on the same day would
>> >not require any extra fuel thanks to the compressed air; and those that
>> >followed would call for only small amounts of extra energy…” (_Anatomy_,
>> >pp.185-186.)
>>
>> >How small is “amounts of extra energy?” Two kg of coke’s worth?
>>
>> As you will need on the order of 30,000 kcal you are not going to get
>> that out of 2 kg of coke. That is only a ballpark on boiling out the
>> water while maintaining the same temperature.

>The Giwer-Troll overlooks that the furnace itself is a heat resevoir.
>The Giwer-Troll also overlooks that the corpses are a source of fuel.

>> I pointed this out to you once before, you are still confusing
>> temperature and heat. (Heat is energy of course.)

>It appears that the Giwer_Troll, besides being ignorant about chemistry
>(anomg other things), is also ignorant about heat transfer.

>> It is also interesting to note that this holohugger non-pharmacist has
>> introduced “fuel tanks” into the discussion for the first time.

>It is also evident that the Giwer-Troll is an imbecile who has a
>comprehension problem. The sentance reads: “…a second and third
>incineration on the same day would not require any extra fuel thanks to
>the compressed air…”

>That’s “thanks” and not “tanks.”

>> >It is also interesting to note that according to the _Operating
>> >Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace_ that:
>>
>> >”After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
>> >reason, care be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above
>> >1100C (white heat)…. Thsi increase in temeprature can be avoided by
>> >introducing additional fresh air.” (_Technique_, p.136.)
>>
>> >This, of course, supports the assertion that the combustion of the corpses
>> >acted as fuel for the incineratoin process, thus reducing the amount of
>> >coke needed to heat the furnace.
>>
>> Not in the least. It is simply saying that there is no more water to
>> boil which takes up heat and because of that the temperature rises. And
>> the fresh air throws away that heat up the chimney dropping the
>> temperate.

>The Giwer-Troll’s ignorance is amazing. If that were the case one would
>expect the temperature of the muffle to _drop_ while the body was
>consumed. This would imply that the temperature of the muffle would be
>_less_ at the end of the incineration than at the begining. However,
>according to the manual, it is just the opposite that takes place, which
>is why (cooler) fresh air must be introduced into the muffle to keep the
>muffle temperature below 1100 C.

>> >In addition, Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in Krema II, testified:
>>
>> >”…As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Krematorium II,
>> >each with three muffles for cremating corpses and heated by two coke-fired
>> >hearths. The fire flues of the hearths came out above the [ash] collection
>> >boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two
>> >side muffles then heated the centre one, from where the combustion gases
>> >were led out below the furnace, between the two firinf hearths. Thanks to
>> >this arrangement, the incineration process for the corspes of the side
>> >muffles differed from that of the centre muffle. The corpses of
>> ><> or wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side
>> >muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely, the corspes of the
>> >people gassed directly on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the
>> >center muffle…. During the incineration of such corpses, we used the
>> >coke only to light the fire of furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned
>> >of their own accord thanks the combustion of the body fat. On occasion,
>> >when the coke was in short supply, we would put some straw and wood in the
>> >ash bins…under the muffles, and once the fat of the corpse began to burn
>> >the corpses would catch light themselves….” (Ibid. p.489.)
>>
>> >”…At the begining of the cremation process, the furnaces were heated
>> >only by their fireboxes and the charges burned slowly. Later on, as
>> >cremations succeeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers
>> >produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of
>> >fat bodies, the fires were generally extinguished. When this type of body
>> >was charged into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow intop the
>> >ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body. When
>> ><> were being creamated, it was necessary to constantly refuel
>> >the fireboxes….” (Ibid. p.495.)
>>
>> >Here, we can see that Tauber has indicated that the “incineration of fat
>> >bodies” did not require much, if any, extra fuel.
>>
>> No. What you have here is a fanciful concoction by another of your
>> famous eyewitnesses. You are aware that if this were true that it would
>> apply to anyone who dies in a fire and the fire gets to the body? You
>> are aware such a phenomenon has never been reported?

>As if there haven’t been victims of fires who where burned beyond
>recognition? (Or as the typical fire is the same as a 1100 C furnace?)
>Given that Giwer cannot _scientifically_ refute the exothermic reaction of
>(and the heat evolved from) a combusting corpse nor the eyewitness
>testimonies of Sonerkommado who witnessed the incineration of corpses,
>Giwer must blow shit out his lips.

>> Do you really need more?

>Any _real_ evidence? Yes. So for all the Giwer-Troll has evidenced is his
>propensity for blowing shit out his ips.

>> The fire was extinguished?

>That’s what Tauber said. Does the Giwer-Troll have a reading problem?

>> Do you really believe that?

>Doesn’t the Giwer-Troll? Is there some physical problem with extinguishing
>the fires?

>> That is another half hour at least to get it started again.

>And? What difference is that if many (or all) the victims were those who
>had immediatly arrived and were gassed were “fat?” None.

>> More? If this human fat is such a great material why is the fat guy in
>> the middle instead of on either side?

>Does the Giwer-Troll have a reading problem? (A rhetorical question, as he
>does.) Tauber explained why- not that such “fat” victims couldn’t be
>incinerated in the side muffles.

>> Those guys burn on their own and they could burn the skinny guy in the
>middle. > Your eyewitness has it backwards.

>More like the Giwer-Troll has it ass-backwards ’cause he’s an
>ass-backwatds kind of troll.
>
>> More? This fat has to fall into ashes before it burns rather than as it
>> oozes out.

>And fat from hamburger doesn’t fall from a BBQ grill to the coals?

>> Why is that? Why does this sound so much like the Treblinka
>> open pit barbeques?

>Becuase:

>The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic and racist
>troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.
>While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
>consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
>been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
>anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally conducted himself
>with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>> Enough?

>Of the Giwer-Troll’s bullshit? Yes.

>> >> You are the one claiming the above are possible.
>>
>> >Indeed. As were, among others, Walter Mu”ller, Henryk Tauber, and by
>> >inference Topf, the firm that made the furnaces.
>>
>> If you learn to understand what you are posting you would not post it.
>> You are supporting the position I have taken.

>More Giwer-Troll bullshit, rather. What I have posted directly refutes the
>Giwer-Troll’s stupid claims. It’s just that his monsterous ego won’t let
>him admit he’s so full of shit that his back teeth float.

>> >> These are not minor discrepencies. These are the crux of the all the
>> >> deaths of the “unregistered.”
>>
>> >No, the Giwer-Troll’s “objections” are nothing more than the results of
>> >rampant bigotry, prejudice, the lack of critical thinking skills and an
>> >overabundance of denier dogmatism. This is hardly suprising considering
>> >that:
>>
>> The AVERAGE time of cremation today is the result of rampant bigotry and
>> prejudice and a lack of critical thinking skills.

>Now why would the Giwer-Troll claim that? What evidence does he have that
>the average creamation times today is a result of his rampant bigotry,
>prejudice, and severe lack of critical thinking skills?

>But it’s nice to see that the Giwer-Troll acknowledges he’s an asshole….

>>I guess an understanding of the difference between heat and temperature is
>> also.

>…Something beyond the capacity of the Giwer-Trolls pea brain? Certainly.

>> You are very foolish.

>Hardly. However:

>The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic and racist
>troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.
>While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
>consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
>been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
>anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally conducted himself
>with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
Exposure has swung into action.

1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
per day for Treblinka.

But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
today’s slightly less absurd numbers.

2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: “Quicker, quicker, carry
out the whole program!” Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
“Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too.”

Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
of his doubles because he was never near the place.

3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.

Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.

4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”

Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.

5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.

Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
more

Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”

The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.

6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
meters!

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?

Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
could form five high human pyramids.

7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.

And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
exhaust.

8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
the Nazis bad stock.

It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.

9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high

Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.

10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.

A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
fetish.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:32:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pctrb$23 <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 12:34:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>
>>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord McFee)
>>wrote:

>>[snip]

>>>I hope that lurkers in this newsgroup will carefully note this article. I
>>>also hope that Ms. Ostrov will not do what the Giwer-troll is trying to
>have
>>>her do, and that is engage in a flamewar. That is his usual tactic when
>he
>>>is being decimated in an argument: descend into the gutter where he feels
>at
>>>home and try to drag the other person down there with him.

>>Oh, ye of little faith! Mr. McFee, apart from having no interest in any
>>lies the gutter-troll might spew in my direction, the only flamewars I
>>engage in are against those who have the wit (or at least half a wit) and
>>wherewithal to defend themselves. Me, flame a witless gutter-troll?!
>>That would be most unfair (not to mention unladylike!), and I would
>>_never_ stoop so low to conquer:>)

>I am confirmed in my faith that you would not be induced to descend to the
>level of the Giwer-Troll, as easy a victory as that would have been. I am
>sure you, like the rest of us, have noticed that the Giwer-troll’s venom
>increases in direct proportion to the extent to which he is being bested in
>an argument and being revealed for the witless, vile, lying, evil person
>that he is.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45718 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohugger needed
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:36:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 12:38:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines:

> Holohuggers have different ideas of what constitutes their
> holocausts. But they are more than willing to start in with the
> name calling even only things they have flatly wrong.

>As if “holohugger” is not a prime example of name calling! As if Mr.
>Giwer has ever disproved a single facet of Holocaust history!

If you have a better one word name, I will consider using it. Absent
that, I will continue.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:19:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 1:21:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu writes:

># And since he said ‘historians’, the testimony of a witness who
># still claim that 1 or 2 persons were burned alive in an oven at a
># moment is not a ‘proof’ that Faurisson lied when he rejected
># Wiesel’s story about _mass_ burning outside.

>Ok, I’ll explain again.

>Faurisson claims that historians “no longer believe” testimony
>about throwing people alive into the “burning ditches” in
>Birkenau. If he’s not lying, he should present a large number
>of historians who indeed say that they don’t believe this ever
>happened. Until he does, he’s lying about this point.

>The testimonies usually place this method of killing in the
>summer of 1944, when the (average) largest numbers of people
>were being murdered (the Hungarian Jews). Since the gas chambers
>were overloaded, there were times in which some of the victims
>were simply thrown alive into the “burning ditches”, to hasten
>the process.

But not ONE of your pictures suppor it. So please give it up.

>I am aware of a few testimonies about this: by Severina
>Shmaglevskaya, by a few sonderkommando survivors, and by
>the Czech witness Alexander Princz. I am not aware of any
>historian who denies these accounts.

>We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
>and in Lidice if memory serves me right.

You know nothing of the kind without physical evidence and you know it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another Griswold assertion (was: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:44:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 12:47:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33953 alt.revisionism:45724

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Thanks, Jeffrey,
>As usual Giwer gets it all wrong. So don’t let the LIAR GIWER bother
>you. His facts are so screwed up he can’t remember one war story from
>another, and he knows absolutely nothing about World War Two or the
>Holocaust.

>Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>
>> > >> >Please present evidence, Griswold, that:
>> > >>
>> > >> > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered

>The SS contingent stationed all around Dachau in the watch towers did
>not surrender, they had one hell of a fire-fight with Infantrymen from
>the 45th. Division. All SS guards in all towers died during or shortly
>after the fire-fight. Several tried to give up but by then they were
>shot on sight. The fighting lasted for over an hour and snipers even
>into the afternoon. The American GIs were combat veterans all the way
>from Anzio, they didn’t mess with Germans who fired on them.

> and
>> > >> > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
>> > >> > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau

>I never fired a single round. Didn’t have to.
>> > >>
>> > >> He told a great story about it.

>Thanks, I thought the story I told was great too. Trouble is, I wrote
>every word, and only made about enough to buy one good beer.

> Even recounted the shooting.
>> > >Of course
>> > >> he was copying from some professionally written material by the quality

>Whatever you say, pal. Lie like hell, or I don’t feel comfortable
>looking at your stuff.

>> > >> of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.
>> >
>> > >If by “he” is meant Mr. Ferree, this is yet another assertion without
>> evidence.
>> >
>> > Try Dejanews if you missed it.
>>
>> Giwer chooses not to present actual references. As has been pointed out in
>> the past, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to
>> document it.
>>
>> > >> He also claimed to be a camp liberator and a fighter pilot. One

>Who presumes not a thing, and the camp was saved by American
>Infantrymen, not pilots. But I witnessed it all.
>> > >> presumes he destroyed the camp in order to save it.
>> >
>> > >Presumptions are not evidence. Presumptions are merely yet another kind of
>> > >assertion.
>> >
>> > >Evidence is still required that:
>> >
>> > > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
>> > > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
>> > > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau
>> >
>> > >None has been presented, by either Griswold or Giwer.
>> >
>> > He has made every claim I have stated and more. Look them up.

>Proof, Gieweir, no crappola, proof. You know the Al Gentile rules,
>proof or you lie.
>>
>> Giwer chooses to repeat the assertion, again without evidence.

>Jeffery, neither Giwer nor Griswald understands the difference from
>eyewitness testimony and evidence. Both turkeys.
>Chuck
>>
>> JGB
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> Jeffrey G. Brown [email protected]
>> “What’s going to happen?” “Something wonderful…” — ‘2010’
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:30:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:33:21 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> > Would someone care to explain to Van Alstine that the skeletons of
>> >> >> >> >diatoms are not made of silicon?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Would Mr Giwer like to share with us what he thinks diatoms do use
>> >> >> >for their hard parts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A silicon based life form. How interesting.
>> >>
>> >> >Not silicon based, Mr Giwer. Only a scientific ignoramus would
>> >> >assume that because the skeleton is based on silicon the entire
>> >> >organism must be. Oh sorry, it was you who assumed it. Silly
>> >> >of me.
>> >>
>> >> >For those who want to learn a little science at the expense
>> >> >of Matt “i is gud in siense” Giwer,
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.comet.net/gek/phytoc.htm
>> >> >http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
>> >> >http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/bacillariophyta.html
>> >> >http://commtechlab.msu.edu/CTLProjects/dlc-me/zoo/zwp0608.html
>> >> >http://www.clas.ufl.edu/CLAS/Departments/Geology/faculty/Ciesielski.html
>> >> >http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/chromista.html
>> >>
>> >> >(To summarize, diatom skeletons are composed of amorphous silicon
>> >> >dioxide, glass).
>> >>
>> >> And you don’t even know why.
>> >>
>> >> Amazing how many people fall for the easy ones.
>>
>> >Yeah, I know. That makes twice I’ve suckered you into making a fool
>> >of yourself in front of everybody.
>>
>> >It’s so easy, sometimes I’m ashamed of myself. But not for long.
>>
>> When you figure out how to avoid it, use the method you discover to look
>> at your holocaust first.
>>
>> And that of course is the point of these demonstrations.

>You know, Matt, someday you are just going to have to give up using the
>pseudo-wise faux-Yoda Vorlonesque comments that are supposed to, in
>some inexplicable manner, convey your superiority and greater wisdom to
>the masses when they stop and suddenly realize the great knowledge
>that has been conveyed. When in fact they say nothing.

I did not expect you to look at your holocaust first.

But I will try to spell it out for you. When you do not take the time
to critically evaluate something you will accept most anything. In this
case you forgot simple fossilization and wasted a lot of time finding
evidence of fossilization which was not the original issue.

Consider that you knew better than waste that time but you did not think
it through and you wasted the time.

>The only thing you have demonstrated is the rather transparent, and
>might I add, pathetic, ability to try and pass off comments, such as
>the diatom one, as though you knew what you were talking about. The
>fact remains that you consistently make comments that are blatently
>wrong and easily demonstrated as such.

Are you saying I did not know what I was talking about when I said
diatom skeletons were calcium based?

>I don’t know if you do it willingly or knowlingly and frankly I
>don’t care. The fact that you make such basic false statements
>does nothing for your credibility on matters that demand some form
>of intellectual capacity and advanced understanding.

>I mean how can you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you
>make a commentary on the IMT or political movements of the 1930s and 40s
>when you try and pull of things like citing a readily-found reference
>and making a statement that said reference clearly says is false?

Where did I say the reference was false?

In relation to the political movements, I point out what happened, other
respond that it was all Pure Nazi Evil. That is uncritical thinking.

>I know I wouldn’t like to be portrayed as psychologically troubled
>megalomaniac and compulsive liar. You may get some kind of kick
>out of it, though.

By people like you, what does it matter. It is what you folks call
debate.

>But if you have to lie, at least make it somewhat believable. It’s
>getting much too easy to prove you wrong. Hardly a challenge any
>more (not that it ever was).

Who wasted the time collecting the references for something so simple?

>How much does anyone want to bet I get either more cryptic phrases
>or a non-reply with the added spam .sig?

Since you appear to want one …

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?

=====

But my choice of what I use as a sig is my business.

And why have you not complained about the use of the Molly Ivans quote
since the beginning of time? What is the difference?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 06:59:32 PDT 1996
Article: 45728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:13:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 241
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:15:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55757 alt.revisionism:45728

[email protected] (Seth Breidbart) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>>>braggadocio about “controlling this conference” [1], and simultaneously
>>>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>>>a response is necessary.
>>
>> You folks posted that I control the conference. I did not start that
>>claim.

>No? Then who did. Please provide checkable references, the way they
>did.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:18:02 GMT

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

> Total number of articles posted: 1832
> Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
> Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

> Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.

> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM

>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>http://www.cm.org/

>alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

What an idiot.

I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.

Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.

To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
doing and am going to do.

To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
the NG back on track.

You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.

Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

Alec will verify that one if he remembers.

So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
aggrandizing in that manner.

But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.

It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

>>>My claim is that Matt Giwer’s intentions are to make alt.revisionism
>>>useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
>>>revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists. I
>>>think I’m on firm ground with this claim, because Mr. Giwer has stated
>>>so himself [2].
>>
>> Excuse me, but you know you folks have bragged about preventing exactly
>>that. That is something you folks have bragged about many times.

>Please give a pointer to the articles in which they did that. If you
>can’t, it will be taken as clear evidence that you’re a liar, just
>making stuff up. You’ll notice that _they_ give pointers with each
>claim.

No they do not. They claim what they have on their website. What is
there is already out of context and heavily censored.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 20:42:47 PDT 1996
Article: 45760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How soon is soon?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:24:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 7:26:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># Relevant, def. supports holohugger PNE fixation.
>
>No, relevant with regard to the rate of evaporation
>of HCN from Zyklon. Seems your estimate was off by a
>factor of 16 or so.

A repeated assertion. Now where is the clear statement of evaporation
time you promised?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 20:42:48 PDT 1996
Article: 45761 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:42:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:44:51 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>DvdThomas wrote:
>>John Morris wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>>>his terms.
>>
>>His terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not personalities. I’d
>>support that aim regardless of who was promoting it.

>Where was Mr, Hunt when I was trying to get Mr. Giwer to examine his
>fallacious scientific arguments? Did Mr. Hunt miss Mr. Giwer’s tendency
>to engage in ad hominem attacks when he realized he didn’t understand
>the claims he was making.

I would presume he was reading the deliberate attempts to deceive the
chemists here continue to engage in.

For example, which of you folks has explained to the incompetent Stein
who has taken up the exothermic argument with his absurd miscalculation
of the heat content of fat? Neither of you.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 20:42:49 PDT 1996
Article: 45763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to make eyewitness testimony credible
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:33:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 7:36:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (PMccutc103) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> Get the idea? You need to find testimony that matches physical
>>evidence
>>in order to give it some credance.

>It is, of course, a truism among lawyers that eyewitness testimony can be
>notoriously unreliable. It’s also very good easy to corrupt the testimony
>– have an eyewitness identify a suspect once and he is likely to start
>reconstructing his memory along those lines. That’s why, for example, the
>people who identified Demjanjuk (sp?) as Ivan the Terrible, while sincere,
>were likely wrong.

WERE completely wrong and the prosecution knew it.

_But_ the fact that they may have misidentified the
>person charged does _not_ mean that there was never an Ivan the Terrible.

>If ten eyewitnesses observe a bank robbery, then they will probably differ
>on details in their account. A defense attorney might pick on these
>inconsistencies to defend a particular person charged with the bank
>robbery. And that would be quite proper. However, we would think that
>defense attorney mad if he said “these accounts are inconisistent,
>therefore there _never was_ a bank robbery!”

>And that’s the equivalent of what you are doing. Sure, there are details
>that may be inconsistent. But that’s true _any time_ more than one or two
>people witness an event.

You appear to be missing the point.

The prosecution would first have to provide the evidence that there was
a backrobbery before testimony would be admitted as to what they
observed.

Do you really not see the difference? Or are you simply playing Keren’s
game?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 20:42:49 PDT 1996
Article: 45765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:58:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 2:00:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>writes:

>>
>>>Go ahead, present your physical evidence that WW2 happened.
>>
>> Lets stick with Dresden for the moment.

>There were also huge numbers of corpses that had to be burned, and they
>were burned in large pyres in the street. It took several weeks to burn
>them all. Photographs are around.

Of course. These folks appear to be unable to discriminate between
evidence and testimony and to realize they have nothing but testimony.

There are bomb camera reels connected directly to planes and missions
and times by records. There are German films with the same chain of
evidence.

One single beginning to end film of the gassing process at Birkenau or
any place else would clinch it. One set of documentary photos would
come very close to clinching it, if of the same documentary process.

Yet there is none of this.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 22:19:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!con-nntp-gw!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:17:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 4:20:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:

>>You are such a birdbrain. I don’t have the time to let you make me sick.
>>I have stated many times where I stand. I am not going to repeat what
>>_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
>>whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
>>possible advertisement for the revisionist position.

>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post. I thought you were
>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.

>>Giwer’s posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
>>tribunals. All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG. It is up to
>>*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
>>balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony. You
>>have done neither. You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem. So
>>you get it back, see?

>Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Giwer seems to leave a lot of loose ends in his posts.
>It seems that every post he makes contain scientific and historical
>errors. Certainly, you can’t be blind to the caliber of his responses
>to being challenged on such facts. I’m certain, however, that you can
>do better. Perhaps, you can make up for the intellectual paucity of Mr.
>Giwer’s posts by providing evidence where he refuses.

You flat out misrepresent posts here.

>For instance, eyewitness testimony, in many cases, refers to Zyklon-B
>as being blue. Mr. Giwer claims that Zyklon-B cannot be blue. When
>pressed, he changes the topic or engages in argumentum ad hominem. Mr.
>Ehrlich, what is your opinion? Is ERCO one of the supports for
>Zyklon-B? Is ERCO blue?

At this point I FOUND AND POSTED the Degesh Publication regarding the
use of Zyklon B for pest control. This is the same document some
holohugger claimed to have but would not post. I pointed out that this
publication mentions only wood pulp.

That is what I did. That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
and ad hominem attack.

I also found and posted another document that it NOT limited to pest
control and which mentions two other carriers, one of which is described
as blue. THEN you folks started claiming that this proves blue is
correct, even insisting it was in fact the Degesh pub when it clearly
was not.

That is what I did. That is what YOU DESCRIBE as changing the subject
and ad hominem attack.

And what you are clearly doing now is misrepresenting what happened.

Why do you do that?

>When you resolve this question perhaps we can address the exothermicity
>of combusting the human body. In your opinion, Mr. Ehrlich, is
>combustion of the human body an exothermic or an endothermic process?

Weren’t you the one who was using Hebrew Union sausage which has fat
with more than 900 calories per gram? What do they use in it? Pure
Jewish Fat?

>I hope that we can finally address many more of Mr. Giwer’s assertions
>with someone who is more reasonable than Mr. Giwer. I await your
>response.

How many more of them do you plan to misrepresent?

>Regards,

>Rich Green

>PS I’m sure that Mr. Giwer will respond to this post, but I’ve abandoned
>any hope of getting a rational response from him. I hope that Mr.
>Ehrlich will do me the courtesy of replying.

Yes, you were quite correct that I would. I corrected your
misrepresentation.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 22:19:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 08:46:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:49:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>The board of certification in the medical specialty of radiology met in
>>Louisville last week. You will be happy to know that your posts
>>claiming that the “skull” and the “pelivs” were single bones was
>>passed around. All memebers of the board had a good laugh.

>>By the way when are you going to provide someone who says that the
>>cranium is, as you stated, one the two bones least likely to be
>>destroyed by cremation. The founder of the International Skeletal
>>Society and the author of the standard reference work on bone
>>disease, would still like to know.

>Damnit, Edeiken, you’ve done it now. Nizkor gets $150,000
>a month, US$, just for providing a very select group of
>clients with their weekly entertainment. Giwer.

>Get it?

>Now that you’ve told the fellow that he’s got people laughing at
>him, all around the globe, he isn’t going to generate nearly as
>much cash. He won’t understand, you know. He’ll think he really
>_is_ funny. The bloody fool will start performing, and THEN where
>shall we be?

>Let him pursue his wish to replace Gannon at the top of the
>spammer heap – let him dream himself Argic; what does it
>matter to us? But tell Im e’s funny? Good God, man, have you
>any idea what you’ve done?

>–
>Nizkor Canada – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)……unlearn
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another good one
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:36:27 GMT

Anyone seriously interested in this gassing story should first go
to Nizkor and dig out the picture of one and then compare it to
this description. You will of course find they do not match in
the least.

=====

Kiev, 16.May.1942

Reich Secret Document

To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff Berlin

The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been
completed…

I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house
trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and
on the large
ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
country. The
vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
the civilian
population referred to them as the “Death Vans” as soon as one
appeared….

I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far
away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent
damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out…

The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to
get the Aktion
finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
accelerator as
far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of
suffocation
and do not doze off as was planned….

Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer

=====

Und hier ve haf de gut Dr. Becker not realizing that

1) the “gas leaking out” is no more dangerous than any auto
exhaust

2) gas HAS TO come out as it is not pressurized

and

3) a holohugger has sworn there were special vents on these
trucks in the first place so it was going to come out. (One of
the Dannys I believe.)

From [email protected] Mon Jun 24 22:47:05 PDT 1996
Article: 45776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Start At Square One
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:22:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 6:24:44 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Something that would be very helpful is to start collecting all the
>eyewitness accounts to gassings at all locations. I seem to recall there
>are maybe 200 or so, including testimony of former SS in post war trials.

>Then, they should be divided by location, and a kind of synoptic version
>of events at every camp where gassings took place could be established.
>Then we could also settle once and for all what we can agree on to
>disbelieve, believe, and hold in suspense. It would enormously clarify
>everyone’s position, and also make it clear what denial of gassing events
>would entail at any given location (in terms of numbers of witnesses
>dismissed).

>Therefore, let’s see if we can formulate a list and URL’s for all
>testimonies of this nature here.

Some time ago in another conference a person suggested that the four
gospels were consistant enough to give evidence that the events
described more or less occurred as described.

I pointed out to him that in the 4th century fifty some gospels were
dicarded for more or less the reason of their inconsistency.

Similarly, the collection should not be limited to gassing as so many
other claims of other forms of mass extermination have been excluded for
similar reasons.

Rather including all forms would indicate the full range of stories of
different means to the same ends.

Similarly for each camp the number and type of inmates should be
collected for comparison.

And the more I write …

What the hell, it is only a spreadsheet.

I am fairly good at organizing them. I’ll do that part of it. I will
use Quatto Pro which was $80.00 a couple years ago so anyone should be
able afford it. It also has DIF outputs for those who already use
others.

As to the URLs some website will need to devote a single page for the
originals as they are collected as we can not guarantee their remaining
where found. In fact I would suggest at least two sites with everything
the same save the basic webpage address so if one should end a small
change in the URL will get back to all of them.

For entrepreneurs out there, we need a spreadsheet that is seamless with
web.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:56:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:59:19 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55813 alt.revisionism:45778

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Amazing! Now he or his script is spamming news.admin.net-abuse-misc.
>Article <[email protected]> quotes the full text of the
>referenced article, unedited, and appends a not-exactly-relevant article
>that has already been posted several times. Just like he’s been doing in
>alt.revisionism.

At some point one has to ask if it is possible to abuse net abuse. It
appears he is trying to do so.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:15:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 7:17:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:57:16 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[re: mail sent from concentration camps]

>> So one of the stories goes, there were SS men detailed to fake all the
>>mail.

>> I actually heard that one on a PBS production.

>> Obviously they had complete dossiers on these people from which to
>>create personal details and samples of handwriting for their expert
>>forgeries.

>> I find it incredible what is repeated with a straight face.

>A simpler, and perhaps more realistic explanation, is that Jews
>deported to extermination camps were ordered to write letters
>reassuring the folks back home that everything was all right.

You fail to notice three things that are a problem with the story in
context of the present version of the myth.

1) These letters were supposed to have continued for years.

2) There were family members back home to receive the letters over
those years.

3) This time consuming process is never mentioned by the eyewitnesses
who claim they were herded directly from the trains to the chambers.

>It does not seem like such a strange plan when considered against the
>background of an effort to get hundreds of thousands people to go to
>their deaths quietly. Any rebellion would have slowed down the
>extermination process. It was actually a pretty good strategy for
>sowing confusion among people who were being deported and who had
>heard stories about what fate awaited them at the end of their
>transportation.

>Characterizing the plan as baroque, or simply indulging in a more
>straightforward kind of mockery, does not seem to me to argue against
>it.

>I must admit that I have never heard of this plan in regards to
>Treblinka before, but only in regards to the so-called “Family Camp”
>at Auschwitz-Birkenau. But there are probably many things I have never
>heard of.

You can not expect to hear such fabulous stories about every camp.
There was not time to fabricate everything with consistancy too.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:48:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:51:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> I will deal with my own statements.

> Fine. then explain to us how a man can be repeatedly beaten with rifle
>butts (note plural), psitol butts (note plural) and pistol barrels (note plural) and not
>sustain injuries noticable on medical examination.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]news5.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:28:00 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45794 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55827

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Seth Breidbart)
>said:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> wrote:

>>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>>Since I find it impossible to believe that they copy you on their email,
>>you’re claiming to have read other people’s email without their
>>permission. That’s a felony in the US.

>>Or are you just lying (as usual)?

>He’s just lying as usual.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45795 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:28:33 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45795 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55828

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) said:

>[snip]

>>Posted; cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc. Please redirect
>>followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

>>Not emailed to “DvdThomas,” because he has said he doesn’t care to receive
>>email from me. Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has said he doesn’t
>>care to receive email from me.

>Giwer is afraid to receive e-mail from you. He can’t cope with it.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:26 PDT 1996
Article: 45796 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revising the data, save the total
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:54:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:57:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>: Auschwitz has lost 3M. . .

>Yawn. Come back when you have a new lie — or at least an interesting one.

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>”I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell.”

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:45:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:48:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Richard Schultz ([email protected]) observes:

> But I also notice that your [Matt Giwer’s] degree is in physics
> and thus far you have claimed expertise in law,…

>Not just law, but criminal law, constitutional law, international
>law, and military law.

> …chemistry, physiology, and history.

>Let’s not forget psychology, semantics, theology, and
>English literature.

>Mr. Giwer is a jack-of-all-trades, and master of none.

Considering my years I feel the fields are rather minor accomplishment.

What can you claim?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45801 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:10:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 3:12:52 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45801 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55831

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:47:15 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>For the third time, I deny your allegation, and I challenge you to
>>>produce evidence that I have participated in a conspiracy to prevent
>>>discussion on alt.revisionism or any other Usenet newsgroup or else to
>>>withdraw the allegation.

>> Guilt by association will go just fine.

>I asked three times for evidence of his allegations; three times Mr.
>Giwer failed to produce it.

>Well, this is as close as anyone ever gets to getting an admission
>from Mr. Giwer that his allegations are groundless, so I guess I’ll
>just have to be satisified.

>–
> John Morris
> at University of Alberta
>————————————————————————
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
> File archives – ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Web page – http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
with the conspirators.

It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
himself with the conspirators.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another Griswold assertion (was: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:36:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]on.ca> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 9:39:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33994 alt.revisionism:45802

[email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> >> >Please present evidence, Griswold, that:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
>> >> >> > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
>> >> >> > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He told a great story about it. Even recounted the shooting.
>> >> >Of course
>> >> >> he was copying from some professionally written material by the quality
>> >> >> of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.
>> >>
>> >> >If by “he” is meant Mr. Ferree, this is yet another assertion without
>> >evidence.
>> >>
>> >> Try Dejanews if you missed it.
>>
>> >Giwer chooses not to present actual references. As has been pointed out in
>> >the past, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to
>> >document it.
>>
>> And since holohuggers have used DejaNews in place of presenting actual
>> references. Is that not accepted practice here? When did the rules
>> change?

>Giwer chooses not to present actual references. He also chooses to blame
>others for his failure to do so.

>As has been pointed out in the past, it is the responsibility of the
>person making a claim to document it.

>JGB

>=====================================================================
>Jeffrey G. Brown [email protected]
> “What’s going to happen?” “Something wonderful…” — ‘2010’
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45808 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:44:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 7:46:40 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:31:44 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>>>his terms.

>>>I have to ask: where are all our free speech advocates in all this?

>> You should have asked my terms instead. But then you are able to read
>>as you know my terms are stated in what you quote.

>I see. I will be allowed to be heard about the din of your spam
>flooding only if I agree to post on your terms. Thanks for sharing
>this, Mr. Free Speech.

Since I referred you to my stated terms, that the holohugger crap stop,
you delete it this time in order to continue to misrepresent what I
said.

Does this have something to do with that open debate you folks claim
occurs here?
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:01:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 3:04:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]aol.com>,
>Ruth Sommers wrote:

>>Granting that the discussion about diesel engines is something of a blind
>>alley, to me at least, it is my understanding that HCN in carrier
>>substances is still made, and even if it isn’t it was made for decades in
>>Germany. BTW, the evaporation rate is supposed to be 37% of the existing
>>volume every half hour at 20 degrees Centigrade, according to Rudolf.
>>Crudely, that means 1/3, then 1/3 of 2/3, then 1/3 of 4/9, etc. for
>>several hours.

>I would think that Peters would be a more reliable source or does Ms.
>Sommers disagree?

>>Therefore it shouldn’t be too difficult to establish the _entire_ range of
>>carrier substances, their diameter, their composition (diatomite, wood,
>>silica), whether or not the carrier was bleached and/or colored (with
>>cobalt blue, for example). We could settle whether there was a
>>correlation between lettering (Zyklon A, B, C, D, E) and carrier, and
>>beyond that to the cost.

>>I gather it is fairly well established that *Zyklon B* was _the_ form of
>>HCN used by the SS. And it was widely used. Therefore we should have no
>>problem, that is, if someone knew what they were doing.

>Perhaps Ms. Sommers missed Mr. Giwer’s post from CODOH’s own web-site
>that state.

>

>Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
>Moravia in Prague.

>Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the
>Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)

>Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War
>Crimes

>[…]

>II. METHOD OF USING PRUSSIC ACID

>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess – Dia
>gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.

>[…]

>

>Would Ms. Sommers agree that it is not surprising that testimony would
>refer to Zyklon as blue?

Since I was the first to introduce this document I must intrude. I must
point out it is contrary to the Degesh publication that specifically
refers to the pest control type and mentions only wood pulp.

But you know that.

You folks will continue to lie about it as much as you will continue to
lie about professional fumigators doing the fumigating at Auschwitz.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:12:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:15:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >The only thing you have demonstrated is the rather transparent, and
>> >might I add, pathetic, ability to try and pass off comments, such as
>> >the diatom one, as though you knew what you were talking about. The
>> >fact remains that you consistently make comments that are blatently
>> >wrong and easily demonstrated as such.
>>
>> Are you saying I did not know what I was talking about when I said
>> diatom skeletons were calcium based?

>Either that or you lied. In the first case, you spoke without checking
>your data. In the second, you are a liar. Either negligent or a liar,
>take your pick.

You folks get so pissed when you are suckered into uncritical response.
You did avoid refuting the clear statement that fumigation was not done
by camp personnel. I will give you that one.

>> >I don’t know if you do it willingly or knowlingly and frankly I
>> >don’t care. The fact that you make such basic false statements
>> >does nothing for your credibility on matters that demand some form
>> >of intellectual capacity and advanced understanding.
>>
>> >I mean how can you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you
>> >make a commentary on the IMT or political movements of the 1930s and 40s
>> >when you try and pull of things like citing a readily-found reference
>> >and making a statement that said reference clearly says is false?
>>
>> Where did I say the reference was false?

>I’m sorry the prose was not formatted correctly. You made a statement and
>cited a reference. That reference says you are wrong.

I cited no reference on diatoms.

>> >But if you have to lie, at least make it somewhat believable. It’s
>> >getting much too easy to prove you wrong. Hardly a challenge any
>> >more (not that it ever was).
>>
>> Who wasted the time collecting the references for something so simple?

>Someone who wants to demonstrate that you are either an ignoramus or a
>liar. Like I said, take your pick.

>Not that I wasted that much time. It took five minutes max to pull those
>references up using Lycos and quickly check their information.

>By the way, Mr Giwer, what are diatom shells made of?

Diatoms do not have shells. The term you want is skeleton.

>> But my choice of what I use as a sig is my business.
>>
>> And why have you not complained about the use of the Molly Ivans quote
>> since the beginning of time? What is the difference?

>*Your* business takes up disk space, which makes it everybody’s business.
>Surely an long-time Internet user such as yourself knows that proper
>netiquette usually deems a 4 to 6 line .sig as the longest you should
>use.

>Furthermore, since it is your .sig, then you are replying to posts by
>not replying to them at all, also bad netiquette.

Contact Miss Manners.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45814 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:09:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:12:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>It can not be denied that Giwer is a compulsive liar; he lies
>daily about everything, including the posters here. Practically
>every day he lies about someone having allegedly posted something,
>and when pressed for the source, he says “I don’t bother to
>keep the crap you post”, etc.

>He’s a compulsive liar, there’s no doubt about that. But let’s
>look at something else.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>I wonder if anyone took note of Giwer’s rant about how it wasn’t
>clear why the US didn’t kill hundreds of thousands of Israeli
>civilians following the Israeli Army attack on the USS Liberty,
>during the so called Arab-Israeli Six Day War in 1967.

An act of war on the US should be treated as such.

And, as I have been asked, just what does Israel have to do with this
NG?

>I’m not going to go now into the discussion whether this was an error
>or not; all evidence IMHO points to the fact it was an error – a stupid
>error indeed – by the Israeli Army. But mistakes happen in wars, and the
>Israeli air-force also killed 25 Israeli soldiers by mistake in the
>1982 Lebanon War.

You have just gone into a discussion and all the evidence is that it was
a deliberate act of murder.

>The question I want to pose, is: what kind of person would think that
>the correct response – even to an intentional attack that killed 34
>American soldiers – would be to kill hundreds of thousands of Israeli
>civilians?

War is hell.

>Ask Mr. Jim Ennes and Mr. Joe Meadors, who were sailors on the Liberty
>when it was attacked. They believe the attack was intentional. They
>suffered more than Matt Giwer; they lost close friends. Mr. Ennes was
>also injured in the attack.

>But they do not share Giwer’s genocidal mania,

You were talking about Israel. Just where does genocidal come into that
save from the monomanical delusions of Jews?

Or do we need a better example of the primitive religious superstition
connect Hebrews to their land promised by a non-existant god via a Moses
who never existed?

that’s for sure. They
>do not ask that hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians be killed
>in response. They want another investigation to be held. That’s
>what they’re asking for. Not for a genocide of Israeli civilians.

>Giwer does seem to think that would have been the correct response.

>The man’s not only a deranged, crazed liar and a rabid racist.
>Apparently, he’s a genocidal maniac as well.

Danny boy, you are a fanatic. A religious zealot. You have not ability
to think when it regards your devotion to Israel, that monument to
religous superstition.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:32 PDT 1996
Article: 45818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:10:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:13:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>Well, if you’re unable to read historical statements, give a look on
>>>the TV’s recent movies on the Manchester’s bombing, and say if no men
>>>were screaming.

>> You mean in pain? I have not objected to that.

>No pain. 1/4 hour after the bombing, no injuried, men were screaming
>in these movies. As did Herbert in the French Revolution and hundred
>of others in front of the headsman.

>I don’t understand why you’re fighting for such a claim. Any
>psychiatrist will say that a man can and will often scream in fear,
>without any pain, or help to expect.

Then you will have to give me the title of the documentary using actual
film footage shot at the time with a sound track so I can watch for it.

Or are you going to tell me there is no real time footage with a sound
track demonstrating your claim?

But then you did say it was a movie and not a documentary.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 07:12:33 PDT 1996
Article: 45824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:18:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 9:21:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>>>>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.

>>>Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?

>> Would you care to post your evidence for the existance of those other
>>letters? Be the first.

>You didn’t hear nothing about Zyklon C, D, E, F ? It is basic. If you
>want to fish, take another lure.

I was looking for both no letter and A actually. Save of course I know
where the B came from. Would you like to talk about the other letters
first?

>>>I certainly don’t know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
>>>never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
>>>”Dr” Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh’s effect is, you certainly know
>>>why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you’re so clever, I will
>>>waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
>>>colors.

>> I am fully aware of scattering. Now would you like to so me the
>>equations that will demonstrate that that is the source of the blue
>>coloring? No? But you must have run them to determine that is the
>>cause so why will you not post them?

>So, are you expecting the Rayleigh’s equations or something else ?

If you are presenting Rayleigh scattering as the explanation I cetainly
expect the equations that demonstrate it applies in this case. After
all it is your claim that is the explanation.

If you did not make it up then they did run the equations.

What are you going to claim I have wrong with this?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 08:53:26 PDT 1996
Article: 11114 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Let Matt Giwer Post!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:02:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:04:51 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

“Charles J. D. Mountel” wrote:

>I would have to agree. From what I have been reading as of late, many
>people do not agree with Mr. Giwer’s ideas (myself included). The way to
>deal with this is not to launch insults and take up newsgroup space.
>Simply argue the man down with facts, this should be simple enough.

Which I welcome but I would not like to see conclusions forwarded as
evidence. That would be counter productive.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 08:53:27 PDT 1996
Article: 11119 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:09:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 5:11:55 PM CDT 1996

[email protected] (Tim Edwards) wrote:

>On 22 Jun 1996 02:49:05 GMT, Gumby wrote:

>>Is there any record of democratic nations having gone to war with each
>>other? Aside from the case of the Civil War, have there been any other
>>cases? Just wondering.

>A friend of mine is working on a doctoral thesis at UC Davis on just
>that topic. With careful qualification of the word “democratic”, the
>answer is “no”. (At least that’s what my friend said.)

The qualifications most likely overlooked that the Confederate States
were a functioning government four months before the shooting started.
There were in fact no calls for war but rather the talk was about how to
get them to rejoin the Union.

And then some hothead started shooting over Ft. Sumter. Lincoln
responded with a Naval blockade of the Confederacy and the battle lines
were drawn.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 08:56:51 PDT 1996
Article: 45840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a surprise
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:19:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 1:22:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten wrote:

>Keith Morrison wrote:
>>Richard Schultz wrote:
>
>>> Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>>> : The only thing they have not made pubic [sic] yet is the strategy session
>>> : they indulged in.
>
>>> Hey! This is a family newsgroup!

>>No no no, he was talking about the bones in the pelvis,
>>weren’t you, Mr Giwer?

>>By the way, figure out how many there are yet?

>Or which ones normally fuse, and by what the fusions are complete, on average?
>And whether this differs for men and women?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 08:56:52 PDT 1996
Article: 45841 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:24:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 1:26:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>[much prologue snipped re energy input required to ignite a body]

>>
>>>> But I can find the right inputs and then be able to make the correct
>>>>calculations.
>>
>>> Then please do so.
>>
>>> The amount of energy needed to deal with the water is independent of
>>>the amount of energy in the body. We do not have to agree right now on
>>>how many calories there are in a human body in order to figure out how
>>>many calories are needed. In order to answer the question of whether the
>>>body supplies enough calories, when burned, to repay the energy used to
>>>ignite it, we must compute the ignition energy. Without that, we have no
>>>way of knowing if the calories available (whatever they are) would be
>>>sufficient. Correct?
>>
>>> So take a 70kg person as your input. Is 85% water an acceptable
>>>assumption? Compute the number of calories required to deal with the
>>>water in cremating a corpse. You have claimed you can do this
>>>calculation. Please proceed. Show all your work. After you have given
>>>your number and the computations you used to arrive at that number, I will
>>>either agree to it and we can then work on the second half – finding the
>>>number of calories actually obtained by burning an average 70kg corpse –
>>>or I will tell you why I disagree.
>>
>>>[Remainder deleted to be dealt with after Mr. Giwer shows the computation
>>>he has said he knows how to do.]
>>
>> Why do you not show me how to do it.

> I do not show you how to do it because you have said you know how to
>do it already. Therefore there is no reason for me to show you as it is
>needless. Or is this an admission that you were lying?

Lets see. You deleted the computation and then you imply I have not
posted the computaion. Why do you not post yours so I can do the same
thing?

> I also do not do it because it is your claim that you know how to do
>it, and your claim there was not enough coke. Therefore your burden of
>proof for these claims. It is not my responsibility to do your work for
>you. Sorry about that.

You are incapable of doing them. The only thing you can do is delete
mine.

>>Post you calculations.

> After you, my dear Alphonse. Your claim, your burden of proof. Sorry
>about that.

I did. You deleted them, asshole. What kind of stupid game do you
think you are playing?

> Remember, show your work. Posting a number without showing the
>assumtions and formulas used is not acceptable. Any lying fraud could do
>the same. Elsewhere you gave a figure of 30,000 kcal but showed no work
>nor the assumptions about starting temperature and body weight and
>percentage water by weight. Only if and when you fill in the blanks must
>I either agree to accept your figure or show where you are wrong.

You deleted what I did. Now you make a 30,000 kcal claim which I never
made.

Anything else you want to try to run with on this on?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 08:56:53 PDT 1996
Article: 45842 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:29:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:32:19 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>>Ostrov) writes:
>>
>>>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of
>>incidents
>>>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>>>
>>>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike “revisionist” quotes,
>>>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>>>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>>>are intended to be. Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>>>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>>>discussion
>>
>>Let me get this straight: Someone did a poll of the readership of alt.rev.
>>and found that they prefer to read the informative documents of Mssrs.
>>McVay and Keren, while the informative documents of Mssrs. Giwer et al.
>>are not appreciated. I doubt this. I suspect that someone comes to
>>alt.rev. to find out what is here.

>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>better.

>You make me sick.

You were already.

>>They do not come here to be told one
>>side of the story. If only one side of the story was _allowed_ this news
>>group would not even exist. Furthermore, Mr. Giwer’s series of exposes
>>are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
>>lurkers.
>>

>He who laughs last thinks slowest.

That is why you have still not gotten the joke of the holocaust.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:55 PDT 1996
Article: 45853 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s crocodile tears
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:19:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 2:22:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:58:34 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Greg Raven) wrote:

>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>>> >Isn’t it the case that the appeal threw out the law itself rather than
>>>>> >the verdict? In other words, Mr. Zuendel was indeed proven to be a
>>>>> >liar, but the the higher court found that lying isn’t a crime.
>
>>>>> That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly
>>>>> published lies – in my book, that makes him a liar 🙂

>>>>No doubt, if the Court had determined that someone was a witch, and had
>>>>burned him at the stake, any subsequent opinions that there were no such
>>>>things as witches would not change that person’s witchworthiness.

>>>This wasn’t a capital case Zundel was involved in. Therefore the death
>>>pentalty is a nonissue here.

>> It reads to me like the issue is the finding of the jury not the death
>>penalty.

>That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly published
>lies – in my book, that makes him a liar 🙂

You need to learn something, unless Canadian juries are different.

The state of mind can not be determined by a jury.

They judged self avowed experts not the evidence.

No primary evidence was presented.

Of course no one accused Canada of having justice.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:55 PDT 1996
Article: 45854 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:03:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:05:49 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> What can you do to bring in the wrecking ball? Study up a bit on
>the Holocaust/revisionist struggle and then tell your friends. One
>tells another,and he or she tells another, and so on.

The keyboard is mightier than the wrecking ball.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:56 PDT 1996
Article: 45855 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Design of a six-sided Hall of Remembrance at the USHMM
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:06:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:08:52 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>>
>>Is this Museum actually six-sided then, or not?
>>
>>This numbers thing has always mystified me. I have heard that in the
>>Jewish religion ‘six’
>>has some sort of mystical numerological significance. It denotes power,
>>or good luck,
>>or something like that. I don’t know. I don’t know much about the
>>Khabballah or
>>numerology in general, but it DOES seem as though ‘six’ is a predominant
>>figure
>>in so many things Jewish.

>The Pentagon has seven sides, what do you make of that?

Just what do you make of a pentagon having seven sides?

>>6,000,000 Jews. Why six million, precisely? Why not 5,550,000 or
>>1,892,000? Why
>>does the number have to have that six in it?

>Because the estimates by historians fall in and around that number.
>Excuse the world for rounding off.

From 5.2?

>> Is it a case whereby the
>>actual historical
>>truth is not so important, as much as having the right numerology?

>What’s your point.

The six pointed Mogen of course.

>He who laughs last thinks slowest.

You still haven’t gotten the joke of the holocaust.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:25:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:28:18 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison said:

>>Mr Giwer apparently defines the word “attack” to indicate those posts that
>>prove him wrong. For example,

>That would explain why he posts so much, since virtually every post proves
>the idiot wrong about something.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45864 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:41:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 11:43:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>>Subject: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
>>From: [email protected]
>>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:12:51 GMT
>>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>
>> He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they
>have
>>been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
>>discussion of revisionism.
>>
>> Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal
>with
>>people who won’t believe what the Gang insists they must believe.
>>
>> Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as
>they
>>believe. And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
>>the NG…

>I think you are right on the button. Believe as I do, or be censored!
>Agree with me,
>or be driven off the newsgroup through harassment and vicious hate!

Or be personally harrassed and have you family harrassed.

>My impression, from reading so many of these kinds of vicious
>anti-revisionist posts,
>are that the LAST thing these people want is a free and open, rational
>exchange of
>opinions on the Holocaust.

>Your ‘Holoterrorist’ expression is perfect. Other lurkers here ought to
>take this very
>seriously. What kind of a society are we living in, where freedom of
>speech is so
>scantily protected? And why are Jewish people so apparently determined to
>smash it?

Now there was a mistake. You said Jewish. It is only predmoninantly
Jewish. They will insist Ken McVay, OBE (overtaken by events) is not
Jewish. And you are anti-semitic for not qualifying your “jewish”
observaation.

Therefore the term holohugger or holoterrorist. There are so many
tryting to ingratiate themselves with the tribe that we name to
encompass them all.

Keep in mind that Jews could in fact conspire to do any of the nefarious
things the nutcases attribute to them and they could not be named as
doing it. It would be unspeakable.

Even one of the most knowledgeable people in Hollywood about Hollywood
can not speak the truth about Hollywood even though he is repeating
common knowledge.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45865 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 11:47:29 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>>The photos of the people burned alive in the Thekla and
>>Gardelegen atrocities are at
>>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

>Amazing, the pathology science of the 40s. We can’t today tell from ashes
>that the ‘perpetrator’ burned while alive..

Look at the pictures. There are no signs of burning. When you can see
the fingers and toes they are unburned. When you can make out the nose
and ears they are unburned.

These are not pictures of ashes. They are of intact bodies.

As I keep posting …

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:14:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45867 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:46:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 4:49:33 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45867 soc.history.what-if:11128

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard Schultz) said:

>>
>>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>>[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]

>>: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it, : that
>>is your problem.

>>It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>>*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>>arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?

>He never will, since the so-called harassment of his family was in fact
>carried out by him.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:15:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45869 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BUCHENWALD, NORDHAUSEN, OHRDRUF Camps
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:41:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 4:43:57 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># The specific discussion was of the claim of 8000 being
># gassed or burned in a single night. I then pointed out
># there was no evidence of anyone being burned alive.
>#
># You responded with these six pictures.

>NO.

>I responded with six pictures from Gardelegen and Thekla.

>These other six, as obvious from their names, are from
>Buchenwald, Nordhausen, and Ohrdruf. I did not try to make
>any connection whatsoever between them and the Thekla &
>Gardelegen photos.

># Danny, me boy, you no longer have the majority on your
># side to encourage you to try to get away with trying to
># back out of claims that you have made.

>You are quoting me as making claims I have not made. Perhaps
>you should start reading more carefully what I write.

If you are retracting your claim that you had pictures that would prove
people were burned alive just say so.

Then we can get back to the ridiculous claim that 8000 people were
gassed and burned in one night.

You have avoided this one quite enough.

I am perfectly willing to agree that you have pointed to five pictures
of bodies with an undetermined cause of death.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:45:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:50:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 4:53:16 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45874 soc.history.what-if:11131

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]

>: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>: that is your problem.

>It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?

I have presented EXACTLY as much evidence as you have for you imbecile
little holocaust, eyewitness testimony. If mine is no good, yours is no
good.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:45:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lies and Damn Lies
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:21:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:24:32 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) writes:

># Lampshades: Some Nazis made objects out of tanned human skin.

>See also image file:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>the file Buchenwald2.jpg.

02 that is. Where else can you get a 168k file at 278 bytes per second.
An amazing resource.

Now it is up to 435 Bps.

Anyone for a quick game of chess?

It struggled up to 658 Bps now.

Rematch?

That was a waste. It is not clear what anything in the picture is.

Perhaps you would like to try again?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 10:45:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 00:19:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:21:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Richard Widmann) writes:

>[Long article, most of it totally irrelevant, about alleged
> “difficulties” with killing people using diesel exhaust]

We have been over your fantastic explanation before. Or have you
forgotten?

>Nonsense. In a closed chamber, diesel fumes will of course kill.

There are no closed chambers alledged at Treblinka. However it is
hardly necessary to go into it again since we have close up, eyewitness
description of the steaming equipment.

>There was actually a study on this, and its results are reported in
>”The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four Different
>Running Conditions”, by Pattle et al., British Journal of Industrial
>Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p. 47-55. These researchers ran a few
>experiments in which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes,
>and studied the results.

And of course you have failed to post the time to death. You will have
to find between 15 and 30 minutes, but you know that.

>In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6
>BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in
>volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the
>animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine
>was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of
>carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, “diesel
>Engine Reference Book”, by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated
>that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few
>parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO
>can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake;
>the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake
>opening with a piece of metal.)

This is of course when it was running rich and putting out oil fumes.
At Treblinka that would have saturated the wood making it a fire trap.
Also filling the building with oil vapor creates an explosive
environment for the first backfire from that second hand Russian diesel
that was used. We are not talking about a research diesel engine.

>Even in cases when the CO output was low, the animals still died
>from other toxic components – mainly irritants and nitrogen dioxide.

>Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger – they
>belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks weighed 26-31
>tons (depending on the model) and had a 500 BHP engine (compared to a
>mere 6 BHP in the British experiments).

>Lastly, let us note that a paper in the Trans. of the ASME, vol.
>63, 1941, p. 97-105 (Holtz & Elliot, “The Significance of Diesel
>Exhaust Gas Analysis”, mentions that by tuning diesel engines
>to a high fuel-air ratio, an exhaust was reached which contained
>6 percent CO – much higher than the lethal concentration.

And puting out the fire and explosion inviting oil vapor.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 11:17:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55152 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:49:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:51:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.

>I don’t believe this is true.

You should believe it. The holohuggers got together by email and
decided it is true.

Posts “from Matt Giwer” have come from more
>than one machine at once. They’ve got at least two Windows boxes, one
>configured with a WinGate proxy server and “From: [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer)”, the other a WinGate client and “From: [email protected]
>[no GCOS name]. Because of the proxy server setup, articles show up with
>the same NNTP-Posting-Host, but the From: line and other differences
>distinguish which articles were posted from which machine.

Gee, you mean a company the size of Netcom has only one outgoing mail
server? I wonder how they can handle their 400,000+ users that way.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 11:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:54:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 11:56:24 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>>What I’m trying to convey here is that the Museum is more of a religious
>>monument
>>than anything else, and that is a violation of Church and State, is it
>>not?
>>

>What church is it supporting specifically? Please present how the
>museum is promoting religion.

Some day they may put their financial statement / tax return on the site
and we will know. Until then, one speculation is as good as another.
But of course if you know that no synagogue is contributing to it please
so state and the basis for your statement.

>He who laughs last thinks slowest.

Meaning you still haven’t gotten the joke of the holocaust.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 11:33:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:49:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 11:51:37 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>
>>Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
>>From: [email protected] (M Huber)
>>Date: 22 Jun 1996 14:17:53 GMT
>>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>
>>
>Danny Keren had written:
>>>The photos of the people burned alive in the Thekla and
>>>Gardelegen atrocities are at
>>>
>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

>M Huber replied:
>>Amazing, the pathology science of the 40s. We can’t today tell from ashes

>>hat the ‘perpetrator’ burned while alive..

>You dare to doubt this proof? There is a photo of the ashes! What more
>proof
>do you need? Can’t you tell from the ashes that these were Jews, and that
>they
>were burned alive? It’s so obvious that only a denier could question it.

>That reminds me. I went hunting the other day and shot a 400-pound
>squirrel.
>He was HUGE. What, you doubt it? I can PROVE it. I will take you to the
>actual tree where he was shot.

Those are not even pictures of ashes. They are pictures of intact
bodies with no signs of fire damage.

One of the pictures might not even be dead.

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

[This one might not be dead, the plant stems are certainly unburned.]

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
[foot] intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 11:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 45885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:14:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:15:21 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>A simpler, and perhaps more realistic explanation, is that Jews
>>>deported to extermination camps were ordered to write letters
>>>reassuring the folks back home that everything was all right.
>>
>> You fail to notice three things that are a problem with the story in
>>context of the present version of the myth.
>>
>> 1) These letters were supposed to have continued for years.

>Indeed? I don’t see where it says that in Weber and Allen’s account of
>Treblinka. They say the letters were written in 1942, but they do not
>say when they were sent. I think they mean for you to believe that the
>letters were composed and sent by the same inmates over a period
>years.

I am reporting the story as I heard it on PBS as I noted. I give no
credance to it. I use it as an example of how things are so
uncritically repeated.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 12:50:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45887 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.dgsys.com!news.getnet.com!news.goodnet.com!news.netzone.com!oronet!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:28:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 10:30:04 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>Alexander Baron writes:

>># You’re wrong again Dan. He gives History of World War II which
>># checks out. I recently looked up the Moshe Peer claim in the
>># Montreal Gazette, that checks out.

>>I was referring to the claim about Bendel’s testimony, not
>>Peer’s. As for Peer, he was 11 years old when the camp was
>>liberated, and I cannot really expect an 11-year-old to give
>>an accurate testimony.

>Actually, he probably did the best he could. There is always something
>fascinatingly honest about a child’s testimony.

People who believe children always tell the truth, never were children.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 12:50:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: British Columbia Thought Police Handed Clubs
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:47:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 3:49:21 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Orest Slepokura) wrote:

>Date: Tue, 28 May 96 12:15:32 0000
>From: Orest Slepokura Organization: x-files
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: gerald.html
>X-URL: http://www.nsnews.com/thisweek/gerald.html

>http://www.nsnews.com/thisweek/gerald.html

>**********************************
>Orest Slepokura
>[email protected]
>**********************************

>THOUGHT POLICE GET CLUBS

>By Gerald Porter

>Executive Secretary B.C. Press Council

>For those who appreciate the blessings of free speech and the torments of
>a free press, imagine the following happy scenario unfolding in your home
>town:

Sounds like BC needs to start importing guns from the US and teach these
folks there are limits to government power.

They get clubs, you get guns.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 12:50:14 PDT 1996
Article: 45893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers’ True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:24:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:27:13 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) said:

>>> Your squealing is deafening.

>>On the contrary, I take it as a sign of the utter bankruptcy of
>>Revisionism that you personally have to resort to such tactics as flooding
>>this newsgroup with meaningless posts, and that Revisionists not only will
>>not speak out against such tactics, but openly support them.

>It is the “revisionist” way though John. Bankrupt, mindless and unethical.

An example of the nonsense believed by the holohuggers is appended.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 14:29:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45897 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:32:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, Keith Morrison wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:
>> > But my choice of what I use as a sig is my business.
>> >
>> > And why have you not complained about the use of the Molly Ivans quote
>> > since the beginning of time? What is the difference?
>>
>> *Your* business takes up disk space, which makes it everybody’s business.
>> Surely an long-time Internet user such as yourself knows that proper
>> netiquette usually deems a 4 to 6 line .sig as the longest you should
>> use.

>I am amused that Mr. Giwer is complaining about my shockingly long (9
>lines! Egad!) .sig. I am also amused that he considers early June
>1996 “the beginning of time.” (Go ahead and check Deja News on this…)
>I began using this quote around May 30-31, when I was cleaning up my
>office and found a copy of the column where Ivins made the comment. New
>.sig coming soon; just need to find a quote I like.

>However, I do realize that a month of reading Mr. Giwer’s prose does seem
>interminable…

>———————-
>Marty Kelley ([email protected])

>”It would be such a relief to think the people in charge knew
>what they were doing, even if they were bent on mischief….[but]
>stupidity is far more important than conspiracy in determining
>man’s fate. Simple dumbness, along with luck, chance, and
>accident, runs well ahead of conspiracy in the causation category.”
> –Molly Ivins

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 14:29:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein confesses
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:06:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:09:34 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>4/26/45:
>>>> The date SS officer Kurt Gerstein’s first two (of at least six)
>>>>”confessions.” Confession 1 is
>>>> handwritten in French. Confession 2 is typewritten in French, dated
>>>>April 26, 1945 (also
>>>> presented as Nuernberg document PS-1553; rejected by the IMT but
>>>>accepted by the
>>>> AMT!). Confession 3 is typewritten in German and is dated May 4,
>>>>1945. Confession 4 is
>>>> handwritten in French, dated May 6, 1945. Confession 5 is
>>>>typewritten in French, dated May
>>>> 6, 1945. And Confession 6 is typewritten in German, dated May 6,
>>>>1945. Also, there are
>>>> three distinct versions of Confession 5.

>>>Please see the dates: April to May 6. Gerstein is dead in Paris at
>>>July 25.

>>>His testimony **was** accepted in Nuremberg: PS 1553, (French) RF-350.

>> Which one?

>Errors excepted, like it was in French, the 1 or the 2. Likely the 2.
>The 4 is ruled out.

How does one know what the errors were? What were the grounds for
picking and choosing save the least incorrect? How could one person
produce so many conflicting confessions?

It sounds more like an error by the interrogator to get the correct
confession?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 14:29:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.skinheads,talk.politics.misc,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Six Questions for Bobby Huber & Anna Manicka (Round 5)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:16:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45907 alt.politics.white-power:34049 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23746 alt.conspiracy:61644 alt.skinheads:29517 talk.politics.misc:396492 alt.censorship:86529

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: pub/people/h/huber.a/huber-10q
>First-published: 1996/03/21
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/19

>Mr. Huber & Ms. Manicka,

>During the course of your journey through the
>sewers of digital messaging, you have provided a number of
>frauds, insults, deceits and outright lies, all aimed at
>defaming Jewish people.

And they a goy to defend them.

>Now that I have clearly and unequivocably called you a blatant
>liar, you can prove me wrong by answering the following
>questions. In the event you suffer from memory failures, I
>will be considerate enough to continue to republish these
>questions from time to time so that you will not be denied the
>fair and public opportunity to respond, and clear your, er,
>good name.

Old Overtaken By Events still thinks his baseless assertions are true
until they are proven wrong by someone else. What a fool.

>Perhaps Prodigy users will be kind enough to post this series
>of questions to your favourite Prodigy discussion groups, so
>that you will be certain to see them, and internet users will
>forward them to [email protected] as well.

When are you going to stop SPAMMING the conference with your silly
questions and grow up?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 14:29:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Dahlman of El Lago Texas
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:13:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:15:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>If the Holocaust is so ‘true’ and ‘obvious’, then why the need for all
>this vitriol,
>filthy language, and general nastiness, to put down those who doubt it?

What kind of truth needs protecting?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is seeing things
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:51:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:54:35 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines:

> You have a real shit search routine.

>Yes, and its name is “Matt Giwer.”

> In fact it is there in two places that I know of.
> Why can’t you find it?

>Because it is not there at all! If it were, Mr. Giwer could provide
>a pointer, instead of demanding that everyone else go on a wild goose
>chase to “find it!”

What wild goose? Someone claimed to have done a content based search
and could not find it.

He either lied about the search or Nizkor files are censored.

How do I know?

That is a riddle which is obvious to anyone paying attention to this
conference.

I have told several people the answer but no Nizkorite has figured it
out yet. I would think it would be obvious by now.

>But for Mr. Giwer the point has never been to establish the truth.
>It has always been how to annoy the greatest number of people with
>the least amount of facts.

Sort of like the Torah, Torah, Torah.

>–
>Harry Katz

>Men should thank God alike for evil and for good.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

I prefer Mel Brooks.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:34:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:36:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Krema I is a reconstruction based upon an artists conception.

>So why does it have cyanide compounds on its walls?

As I said, that is why I would make no claims about it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:26 PDT 1996
Article: 45927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:01:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:03:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>You’re perhaps yourself a little rusty and leaking out.

>> Cute and to the point. It was a stupid question.

>As I can expect from your part.

But it was not my question as you know.

>>>>>But Pfannenstiel was still alive when Rassinier met him. And he said
>>>>>the same thing that Gerstein, excepted what involved him personnally.

>>>> What does this have to do with the subject of a written confession?

>>>Pfannenstiel wrote too his own confession. Since he din’t know that
>>>Gerstein was dead, he admitted himself to have seen a gassing in
>>>Belzec. He said he wasn’t in Treblinka, but he knew too that it was in
>>>this place that Gerstein testimonied about his speech, about the
>>>greatness of the work, the importance of the mission.

>>>Do you then guess what is the relation with Gerstein’s written
>>>confession ?

>> No reason to guess. Why not tell me?

>If you want. The mainly point of the Gertein’s testimonies is an
>inspection of Belzec and Treblinka. He was with some men: among
>others, Pfannenstiel namely.

>Pfannenstiel said that he was with Gerstein in Belzec, but not in
>Treblinka, despite it was the same travel. It can be easily understood
>as Gerstein said that Pfannenstiel watched through the peephole in
>Treblinka and made a speech aso, that Pfannenstiel, no knowing that
>Gerstein was dead, was careful.

>In fact, Pfannenstiel said the same thing as Gerstein: the same
>barracks, the same number of gass chambers, the same name of
>’Heckenholt Foundation’, the same David’s star, the same preparations,
>and even the same screams. The same silence. The same buries with
>gasses exhausting.

>But even in 63, as he certainly knew that Gerstein was dead, he told
>**in private** to Rassinier (a well-known, in a some manner the father
>of the french revisionism) that all the victims were killed in fifteen
>minutes. I can even imagine that Rassinier tortured him to say that.
>But Rassinier quoted this testimony in his narrow readership book,
>almost at this time (“Le drame des juifs europeens”) and certified
>what it was been told, with the classical reserve “testis unus, testis
>nullus”.

>Do you always understand nothing ?

It is not clear what you are saying as you are leaving out the date of
when it was first said and where that is documented. It is also unclear
where the contents of a private conversation are recorded.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another curiosity
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:20:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:23:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>> We all know that the evil Nazis were busy rounding up Jews and
>>executing them on the spot in all the places they controlled to the east
>>of Germany, lands liberated by the Russians.

> Buzzer there. It was done on a much smaller scale in Poland, but the
>major method there involved shipping off to Treblinka et al. Please post
>any documentation you have of any claim that this was SOP in Rumania and
>Hungary.

The last time I brought up a discrepency in total numbers, I was told
that the Einstatzgruppen got over a million people. Was that in error?
Or is that only true when there are discrepencies in numbers being
discussed?

>> Yet these same Nazis under the same orders were not doing it in
>>any other of the countries they controlled,

> In occupied Russia, it was done by the Einsatzgruppen and
>locally-recruited auxiliaries. I am not aware that the Einsatzgruppen
>operated in any other countries the Nazis controlled, under the same or
>any other orders. I would be interested in seeing any documentation you
>have on this.

>>that is, countries liberated by
>>the British, French and Americans. Not even to Jews who were supposed
>>to have been the primary targets in the Russian liberated countries.

> This sort of contradicts the earlier line about on-the-spot execution
>in “all lands east of Germany,” doesn’t it?

It makes it unexplainable as to why the same thing was not found in
countries liberated by the other three allies.

>> Odd.
>>
>> Where did they say this holocaust was manufactured? Russia? Nah!
>>Couldn’t be.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45931 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Breakfast for Champions
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:07:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:09:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[To Matt Giwer]

>## Liar. The thread, as you know very well, is about the gas
>## chamber in Krema I in Auschwitz. This is the one which the
>## original article you posted mentions. The “reconstruction”
>## this article discusses is of this gas chamber in Auschwitz,
>## not in Maidanek.
>##
>## This is the one you claimed has cyanide traces on its outer walls.
>## And you lied, as usual. Nothing new here.

># Now that you clowns have surrendered you have nothing else
># to do but suck hind teat and play catch up.

>Whatever this is supposed to mean, you did lie about the gas
>chamber in Krema I having cyanide traces on its outside walls.

>It was not just a random lie, or a mistake – you deliberately
>lied so you could claim it was a delousing chamber.

It appears all you have left are these silly little games.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:27:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Gord McFee wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >> (Matt Giwer) said:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Would someone care to explain to Van Alstine that the skeletons of
>> >> >diatoms are not made of silicon?
>>
>> >Would Mr Giwer like to share with us what he thinks diatoms do use
>> >for their hard parts?
>>
>> A silicon based life form. How interesting.

>Not silicon based, Mr Giwer. Only a scientific ignoramus would
>assume that because the skeleton is based on silicon the entire
>organism must be. Oh sorry, it was you who assumed it. Silly
>of me.

>For those who want to learn a little science at the expense
>of Matt “i is gud in siense” Giwer,

>http://www.comet.net/gek/phytoc.htm
>http://www.indiana.edu/~diatom/diatom.html
>http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/bacillariophyta.html
>http://commtechlab.msu.edu/CTLProjects/dlc-me/zoo/zwp0608.html
>http://www.clas.ufl.edu/CLAS/Departments/Geology/faculty/Ciesielski.html
>http://ucmp1.berkeley.edu/chromista/chromista.html

>(To summarize, diatom skeletons are composed of amorphous silicon
>dioxide, glass).

And you don’t even know why.

Amazing how many people fall for the easy ones.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:55:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:58:15 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:26:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>> You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>>>>>>prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.
>>
>>>>>Mr. Giwer, you have frequently posted my name in alt.revisionism as a
>>>>>member of this so-called “Gang of Six.”
>>
>>>>>I categorically deny conspiring with anyone, by e-mail or otherwise,
>>>>>to prevent discussion on any Usenet newsgroup.
>>
>>>>>Please post your evidence that I have been involved in such a
>>>>>conspiracy, or withdraw the accusation.
>>
>>>> I got the contributor’s list from Nizkor. Tell them to take you off of
>>>>it if you do not want the honor. Until they take you off, don’t
>>>>complain to me.
>>
>>>Your response is unsatisfactory. It does not address the issue at
>>>hand. So what if I have contributed my volunteer labour to the Nizkor
>>>web pages? You have accused me of conspiring to prevent discussion on
>>>alt.revisionism; I deny this and challenge you to post evidence of
>>>such a conspiracy or to withdraw the accusation.
>>
>> There have been three posts referencing Nizkor email discussions to
>>plan how to deal with people. It is clearly implied that it is the
>>Nizkor gang. As they appear to all have the new approach the next day,
>>the posts have been confirmed.

> Except that I have elsewhere been named as one of the “Gang of Six,”
>yet my approach has not changed. It appears we have a very unreliable
>eyewitness once again.

>> When you hang out with the wrong crowd you get tarred with the same
>>brush. Sort of like lying with dogs, hro excepted from this one.

> Then Matt Giwer must now admit it was reasonable and acceptable to
>call him an Nazi and antisemite. For a good many of the revisionist crowd
>are antisemites and neo-Nazi types. He was just tarred with the same
>brush.

Then you have no gripe, do you? All you have to do now is support your
claim about the “revisionist” crowd.

Of course all that you have to point to are the self-avowed nazi types
and then to claim the reverse is true in an amazing exercise of a known
fallacy.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BUCHENWALD, NORDHAUSEN, OHRDRUF Camps
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 02:16:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 9:18:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Photographs from some other Nazi camps:
>##
>## All photographs are in
>##
>## http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
>## ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/
>##
>## Mirror site in Europe:
>##
>## ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/
>##
>## Photos are:
>##
>## Buchenwald1.jpg Buchenwald2.jpg Buchenwald3.jpg
>## Nordhausen.jpg Ohrdruf1.jpg Ohrdruf2.jpg
>
># More of Keren’s insane delusions that there is any sign of burn
># injuries in these pictures.
>
>Giwer, you’re losing the little sanity you may have had.
>
>I did *not* claim that *all* these pictures (from Buchenwald,
>Ohrdruf, and Nordhausen) show burn injuries.

The specific discussion was of the claim of 8000 being gassed or burned
in a single night. I then pointed out there was no evidence of anyone
being burned alive.

You responded with these six pictures. Several time I posted a detailed
list of why there were no signs of burning.

Your only response beyond reposting was to say that others could decide
for themselves.

># There is obviously no limit to how far this clown will go
># to perpetuate a hoax.
>
>The above statement reflects on your inability to read, as you
>have quoted me to a statement I never made, and then attacked
>that statement.
>
>I honestly suggest that you learn to read.

Danny, me boy, you no longer have the majority on your side to encourage
you to try to get away with trying to back out of claims that you have
made.

There is no one to deflect the fire from you any longer.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45942 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BUCHENWALD, NORDHAUSEN, OHRDRUF Camps
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:22:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:25:19 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># If you are retracting your claim that you had pictures
># that would prove people were burned alive just say so.

>Oh God, oh God, oh almighty God, what have we done to deserve
>this?

>You’re just too much.

>Look. You have to learn to read. And understand the text you’re
>reading. It’s impossible to go on like this.

>The photos from Gardelegen and Thekla show people who were
>burned alive.

>The photos from Buchenwald do not.

>I explained this very clearly, a few times.

># You have avoided this one quite enough.
>
>Learn to read for God’s sake. It’s impossible to go on like this.

>-Danny Keren.

Consider it retracted.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:47:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45947 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 08:20:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 1:23:00 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:02:19 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>I, for one, would be very interested in hearing about it.

>[“It” being the technical reasons why industrial incinerators were not
>used in place of crematoria]

>> First consider the alternate term, ovens. They are designed like ovens
>>so that the inside can be heated to where the water boils off and the
>>solid remains can ignite. In principle it is not different from any
>>oven design.

>> For example, in an oven effort is made to spread the heat out evenly to
>>avoid exposing the item to direct flames. If one goes to a solid fuel
>>oven the oven is similarly shielded from the flames. The reason for
>>this is very simple, if it is not done, the food will burn.

>This is just stupid. The purpose of a crematorium is to burn corpses,
>not to cook to them. A crematorium is an incinerator for bodies.

>You can’t even say that you know whether the type of industrial
>incinerators you describe even existed in 1943. All you have done is
>raise an objection which is a variant on the idea that because you can
>think of a better way of doing things, the things were never done. And
>you haven’t proved that incinerators were a better way to go.

You pretended to be rational for a moment there. Why do you retreat
>from that position?

You avoided all of it and deleted so much of the response in order to
avoid answering the hard questions.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 16:47:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45948 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 22:02:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 5:04:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:36:46 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>[email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>> Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
>>>>admit you made it up. There were common trash incinerators around

>>> Around Auschwitz? Large enough to accommodate a corpse? Of course
>>>you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever admit you made
>>>it up.

>> It would be interesting to read your ideas of just how small the
>>incinerators would be in the equivalent of a city of 80,000.

>> I would also be interested in reading your ideas as to why, when the
>>entire purpose was get rid of the bodies of the exterminated that they
>>chose crematoria rather than simply large incinerators.

>Since there were no crematoria capable of the mass destruction of
>bodies at Auschwitz before the SS built them, I am unconvinced by the
>argument that the SS didn’t use trash incinerators because they
>weren’t there.

>This is potentially a very interesting topic, and I wonder why no one
>has thought of it before. At the very least, we would need to know the
>manufacturers of some of the more common models of trash incinerators
>available to the SS between, say, 1935 and 1945. We would need to know
>the capacity of such machines, how much heat they could generate, what
>capacities they could potentially be designed for, and whether they
>could withstand the same temperatures for the same periods as could
>crematoria.

>I don’t expect that Mr. Giwer has done all of the basic investigative
>work necessary, but I am sure that–since he has made a positive
>statement that trash incinerators would have been preferable to
>crematoria–he has at least some information upon which to base this
>claim.

>I, for one, would be very interested in hearing about it.

First consider the alternate term, ovens. They are designed like ovens
so that the inside can be heated to where the water boils off and the
solid remains can ignite. In principle it is not different from any
oven design.

For example, in an oven effort is made to spread the heat out evenly to
avoid exposing the item to direct flames. If one goes to a solid fuel
oven the oven is similarly shielded from the flames. The reason for
this is very simple, if it is not done, the food will burn.

The temperature for a crematoria is simply determined by as high as you
can economincally get to minimize the time.

Compare this to incineration.

What is to be burned is put directly onto the fire. The temperature it
is subjected to is the temperature of the flames.

If you are into BBQing, next time you do take two identical hamburgers,
put one on the grill and the other in the coals. Observe the
difference.

How about time difference? An oven has to be warmed up. You want
simply to burn something, you throw it on the fire.

How about efficiency? Compare firebrick ovens with cast iron
incinerators. You have to get a fire started in both cases. In the
latter case you just start throwing in the bodies. In the former case,
you have the labor intensive one at a time process.

If the crematoria process had some advantage over simple incineration,
then one would expect incinerators to look like ovens.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 18:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 45956 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Lies Again (Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:15:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 4:17:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Get with the program. Keren is now DENYING he ever claimed
># they were evidence of people who died by being burned alive.

>You are, of course, a damned liar, as I never posted anything
>like what you wrote above. I never made such a denial.

>You’re scum, Giwer, you’re a piece of lying scum.

>I very clearly wrote that the *Buchenwald* photos don’t show
>people who were burned alive, but that the *Gardelegen and
>Thekla* photos do show this.

You are trying to play an amusing game, are you not? We all know we
were both talking about the G&T pictures and of course we know there
show sign whatever of any burn damage much less the cause of death.

>Knowing what a miserable imbecile you are, I would have assumed
>it’s possible you’re just making a mistake, but that’s not
>possible, not with me having explained it so many times.

>Moreover, I e-mailed you about this.

>But you lied nontheless, as you did so many times during
>the past few weeks.

>You’re scum, nazi-boy, you’re really a piece of scum.

Another example of the open debate the holohuggers claim to want.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 19:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:42:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> Guilt by association is just fine and you associate yourself by your sig
>> with the conspirators.
>>
>> It is difficult to absolve a person of conspiracy when he associates
>> himself with the conspirators.

>So what does that say about you, who is associated by his position
>with liars, frauds, criminals, and other assorted lowlife?

This is not about the Clintons. I have no such associations. Or has
someone been spreading that rumor behind my back?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 20:05:58 PDT 1996
Article: 11145 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.ece.uc.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Have democratic nations ever fought one another?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:02:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Barry Gaudet) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Barry Gaudet) wrote:

>: > How about the original Greek city states? Were there states other than
>: >Athens that had a democratic system of government? They did seem to fight
>: >each other alot.

>: Their democracy was rather like the early democracy of Rome. The ruling
>: families voted.

> You must be using a very strict definition of democracy.

Not really. When the Mafia families get together and vote that can be
considered a democracy. It hardly applies to the members of the family
who have no vote.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 22:20:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45981 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You TOO can pump gas, just like Ken McVay GSA!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:22:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (karl mamer) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> >Hey, I started as a gas jock at a Petro Canada too. I, however, have
>> >not won any international awards or been honored with an Order of
>> >British Columbia. What’s Mr. Schoedel ever accomplished in life?
>> >What honors have you won, Mr. Schoedel?
>>
>> And for exactly what was this awarded? What actually happened outside
>> of the wording of the award? What is the status of the award? By that
>> I mean is it some real or it is handed out as a political reward?

>If the Order of BC is anything like the Order of Canada it is given for
>the highest level of contribution to the good of society in realms like
>politics, arts & letters, business, humanities, etc.

>The Order of Canada is the one of my country’s top honors. Not
>being a BC resident, I can only guess the OBC is one that province’s
>top honors for service.

What specifically did McVay receive it for? That was the question.

And your IF is noted.

We still have no idea what McVay got it for or if it is worth having.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 23:16:39 PDT 1996
Article: 45992 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IF
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 07:56:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> If an accomodation was ever given for a few characters out here
>on the revisionist side and the Holocaust supporters to have a
>televised debate and the Holocaust side was confronted with some of
>their many evasions from alt.rev. records, they would become bumbling,
>babbling blobs of jelly, shaking, rattling and rolling, with sweat
>rolling down their red faces and then at a particular time stand up
>and say something like ‘Look we don’t have to sit here and take this’
>and bolt out the door.

That of course would depend upon the format and the audience.

Creationists are fairly good at the public debate routine. They set it
up at the only place that will host such a thing, a fundie college so
the audience is convinced in the first place.

Then they get it to be a formal debate protocol so that each side
adresses the pro and con of a statement.

Then the creationist launches into a wide-ranging deviation from the
agreements leaving the person on the side of evolution completely
unprepared.

The “winner” is determined by who still believe in creation.

This does not belong in the debate format in the least. Rather along
the lines of something like Crossfire (a US political program on CNN)
but more freewheeling (on a Crossfire show last week in Georgetown U
there was almost a fist fight in the audience) and a moderator acting
only as a hockey referee knowing he may be injured on the job.

In any debate format the issue should be VERY narrowly restricted, such
as “is there physical evidence of LK I being a gas chamber. That way it
is easy to point out that no testimony evens names it much less
describes it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:38 PDT 1996
Article: 45999 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:55:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Giwer answer the below first. E-mail me since I have you kill filed.

I will not. It is better to have silence so that my statements go
unobfuscated.

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## We have to decide what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>
># What is it about physical evidence you do not understand?

>I don’t understand what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.

It does not mean testimony. It that any better?

>Explain it by supplying “physical evidence” that WW2 took place.
>This is not meant as a joke; I want to know what “revisionists”
>mean by “physical evidence”.

You are copying a Keren thread almost word for word. I will not play
such a game.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:39 PDT 1996
Article: 46000 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:19:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:18:20 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>> >Now where is the original? It is a major point in that so many of these
>> >supposed documents are wind up being unsigned that a mere translation is
>> >insufficient to establish anything.
>>
>> Federal Archives, Koblenz, Germany. The “Bundesarchiv” if you don’t
>> like translations.
>>
>> The document was signed by Rascher. We know Rascher’s signature by
>> comparison with other incriminating, and some quite non-incriminating,
>> documents signed by him.
>>

>For those who cannot make it to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz to examine
>Rascher’s origional letter rearding the testing of combat gases (and for
>whimpering idiots like the Giwer-Troll who cannot comprehend what archives
>are for) I have attached an image file of the letter (with trnalsation,
>from _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_ (ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p.169;
>(Plate 356).

>Mark

>P.S. If the Giwer-Troll has a complaint about spaces in the filename he is
>cordially invited to stick said complaint up his ass sidewise.

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass
extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being
led to the bath-house, the
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor
was electrified in a
special way; there they were killed. ”
IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46009 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:19:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 157
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>> If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
>>fatbroad.

>> The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know it. You
>>have no other qualifications.

>So obvious how the drunken Giwer acts when he is clearly being shown to be
>the fool he is, yet again. Dish it out, but can’t take it. So easy to push
>his buttons. So patently and obviously transparent. So ready to whine
>about the alleged harassment of his family (which he actually did himself),
>yet so ready to engage in this kind of obscenity.

>Do you see this, Mr. Ehrlich? Is this the “reasoned” discourse you lauded
>Mr. Giwer for?

>What about you, Mr. Moran? Is this your hero?

>And lurkers? Is Giwer the voice of a reasoned and reasonable attempt to
>understand the Holocaust? Of course not. He is a perverted, drunken,
>pathetic, prematurely senile fool. He has lost the debate, even after he
>tried to change the rules. He has lost because his anti-human venom bubbles
>so close to the surface, at all times, that he can’t control it. He argues
>not to make a point; he blasphemes in order to hurt people. Not surprising
>that he throws in his lot with his hero Hitler, who suffered from the same
>depravity.

>No wonder he has been manipulated so easily. No wonder he is reduced to
>this kind of grossness, or his usual method of not answering the post at
>all. He is just a quivering little pile of jelly, shaking and quaking
>behind his keyboard, looking over his shoulder, looking for the ghosts. No
>wonder virtually every human being with whom he has come into contact now
>shuns him. All he has left is his hate and his meanness and his fear.

>Pathetic. And horrible.

>> You contribute nothing.

>> You accept only sperm from a thing.

>All alone in the world. Despised by all. No one to bully around. Bitter
>at the past and terrified of the future. So jealous of “normal” people.
>Knowing that the only ones who accept him are the anonymous Nazi denier
>scum. Hating the real world, where people have at least a shred of humanity
>and loathing the fact that he has none.

>Pathetic beyond words.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:41 PDT 1996
Article: 46010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:23:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 7:25:59 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard J. Green) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>
>> >What I see from Matt Giwer’s posts are pretty reasonable.
>>
>> I find it surprising that Mr. Ehrlich would say such a thing after his
>> spat with Mr. Giwer awhile ago.
>>

>Could he have been assimilated by the Giwer_troll? ‘Gads, what a fate!

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:42 PDT 1996
Article: 46012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BUCHENWALD, NORDHAUSEN, OHRDRUF Camps
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:55:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 3:58:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Photographs from some other Nazi camps:

>All photographs are in

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>Mirror site in Europe:

>ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>Photos are:

>Buchenwald1.jpg Buchenwald2.jpg Buchenwald3.jpg
>Nordhausen.jpg Ohrdruf1.jpg Ohrdruf2.jpg

More of Keren’s insane delusions that there is any sign of burn injuries
in these pictures. Not to mention he claims they are proof of people
being burned alive.

There is obviously no limit to how far this clown will go to perpetuate
a hoax.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:43 PDT 1996
Article: 46014 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 10 mindless, repetitive posts
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:54:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 3:56:19 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keren just did this. They are all off topic to revisionism.

The holohuggers will not say a word against this kind of spamming.

It is only the spamming they disagree with that is spamming.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 46015 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another curiosity
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:46:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 4:48:23 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>> We all know that the evil Nazis were busy rounding up Jews and
>>>>executing them on the spot in all the places they controlled to the east
>>>>of Germany, lands liberated by the Russians.
>>
>>> Buzzer there. It was done on a much smaller scale in Poland, but the
>>>major method there involved shipping off to Treblinka et al. Please post
>>>any documentation you have of any claim that this was SOP in Rumania and
>>>Hungary.
>>
>> The last time I brought up a discrepency in total numbers, I was told
>>that the Einstatzgruppen got over a million people. Was that in error?
>>Or is that only true when there are discrepencies in numbers being
>>discussed?

> This does not in any way address the geographical issue.

>>>> Yet these same Nazis under the same orders were not doing it in
>>>>any other of the countries they controlled,
>>
>>> In occupied Russia, it was done by the Einsatzgruppen and
>>>locally-recruited auxiliaries. I am not aware that the Einsatzgruppen
>>>operated in any other countries the Nazis controlled, under the same or
>>>any other orders. I would be interested in seeing any documentation you
>>>have on this.
>>
>>
>>>>that is, countries liberated by
>>>>the British, French and Americans. Not even to Jews who were supposed
>>>>to have been the primary targets in the Russian liberated countries.
>>
>>> This sort of contradicts the earlier line about on-the-spot execution
>>>in “all lands east of Germany,” doesn’t it?
>>
>> It makes it unexplainable as to why the same thing was not found in
>>countries liberated by the other three allies.

> It was not even found in all countries liberated by the Russians
>unless you are aware of some documentation that I have not seen. You
>claim a 163 IQ, and you cannot think of an explanation?

I was so humbly expecting the explanation from you. Please provide it
with the same groups acting under the same orders.

You explain to me why there were no mass exterimination gas chambers
killing Jews in France. You explain to me why there were not mass
extermination Einsatzgruppen roaming France killing Jews.

I await your mere genius level explanation.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46017 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:55:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 11:58:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Ehrlich606 ([email protected]) wrote:

>: The point is whether Treblinka was the final terminus *for all who enter
>: here* as is usually claimed, at least, that would be my point.

>Do you have any evidence it was not? As I recall, Hilberg found the
>records of the train companies — for example, they gave the RSHA a
>group discount for the people being shipped to Auschwitz. I know that
>at least for Auschwitz, the SS guards were provided with round trip
>tickets, but the Jews only paid (yes, the tickets were paid for out
>of money confiscated from the Jews) a one way fare.

One way tickets to where? Treblinka? By name?

BTW: It the money was confiscated it was paid by the SS. If the Jews
paid it was with their money, it was not confiscated money. That brings
either his story or your recounting of it into serious question.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46018 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!pacifier!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Abb Pierre and The Sin of Revisionism
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:00:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 4:02:51 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

>I heard about what happened to Abbe Pierre. This person was one of the
>most popular
>people in France: respected, honored, admired.

>Then, because he dared to support a friend of his who authored a book that
>dared to
>question the Holocaust, he instantly fell into contempt, was dishonored,
>and hated.
>It was so bad that he went off to a monastery to escape the massive
>attacks on him.

>What does this say about the Holocaust? If you doubt it, you are
>committing a
>cardinal sin. Isn’t it just a part of history like any other? Why can’t
>people have
>different opinions about it? And in Pierre’s case, he didn’t even express
>the opinions
>doubting the Holocaust so much as he merely supported a friend of his’
>right to
>express such opinions.

>Persecution, hounding, harassment, all these totalitarian methods to
>silense doubters.

>This is like Orwell’s ‘1984’.

“He’s a Nazi, a Nazi”

“And how do you know he is a Nazi?”

“He gassed me and cremated me.”

Quizzical expressions.

“I got better.”

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:18:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46038 soc.history.what-if:11160

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]

>: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>: that is your problem.

>It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?

You folks have done it to so many people and for so long that you have
got plausible deniability down to a fine art.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46040 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:27:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected].aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 1:29:56 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (RuthSommer) writes:

>But, even if these events were not true: accounts of the bombing
>of Dresden were posted here which are obviously ridiculous, like
>that of people turning into “fine, gray ashes” although they were
>not touched by fire, etc. So, if we dismiss the Holocaust becuase
>of some testimonies which are untrue, do we also dismiss the
>bombing of Dresden because of these testimonies? yes or no?

The pipes are still callin’ you. You refuse to consider the total lack
of physical evidence of gassing. You refuse to consider that no
testimony corroborates the present story of the physical layout of the
places gassing is supposed to have taken place.

ONE and ONLY ONE mention of going down the stairs at Birkenau would do
more for the credibility of gassing than you can possbily imagine. ONE
mention carrying bodies a few steps to the Kremas would do the same.

ONE mention of mention of anything the supports the claimed physical
layout would do more than you can possibly imagine for the credibility
of your story than hundreds off the wall eyewitnesses.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:47 PDT 1996
Article: 46042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!pacifier!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The UFO Man (Re: Ernst Zundel: Canadian Coward, Liar, and Fraud.)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:04:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 4:06:36 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[Followup = alt.revisionism]

>[email protected] (Jimmy) writes:

># I can certainly understand why Mr. Zundle would totaly ignore a
># piece of vile crap like you!

>Is he too busy researching that “secret UFO base” in the South-Pole?

>You are aware, of course, that this maniacal poop claimed that the
>Nazi leadership built such “UFO’s”, and used them to flee to such a
>”secret base”?

>He even claimed to have met the scientists who built these “UFO’s”.
>He even asked people to donate him money, so he can launch an
>expedition and look for that elusive base.

>This is well-documented; the Nizkor site even carries some photos
>of fliers Zundel distributed about these matters. He and his
>nazi-boy followers do not, of course, deny this; they claim he
>”only did it for the publicity”.

>Why, in your opinion, is the world’s “leading Holocaust revisionists”
>such a deranged nut and charlatan? Coincidence?

Pressac has expressed belief in UFO abductions. Therefore he is making
it all up. Love the reasoning. It is up to holohugger standards.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 46045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:18:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>
>>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (william c
>>anderson) wrote:

>>>mg*[email protected]*x.netcom.com wrote:

>>>: If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
>>>: fatbroad.
>>>:

>>[snip]

>>>Boy. Just when you think he can’t sink any lower…

>>Amazing isn’t it?! Well, not really. You see, McFeestein thinks *he*
>>controls the troll – but the truth is *I* have the supreme power. Did you
>>notice how I’ve unleashed the forces of mediocrity and they are popping up
>>all over this ng?! Mr. Anderson, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet! Wait till I
>>*really* swing into action:>)

>The problem, Ms. Ostrovvay, is that *both* of us control the troll. In
>fact, everyone controls the troll. In fact, controlling the troll is quite
>easy, and not much of a challenge.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46050 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:35:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 169
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 9:38:32 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard Schultz) wrote:

>> Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>> : [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> :: Why does the gas chamber still have cyanide traces on its walls?
>>
>> : Same reason there are traces on the outside walls. It was a large scale
>> : delousing facility of the pre-Degesh design. Things like mattresses
>> : were leaned against the outside wall to complete the airing out.
>>
>> If this is the case, then an obvious question suggests itself. If
>> Auschwitz was equipped with such extensive delousing facilities and
>> these were used to such a great extent, how is it that the people
>> running the camp were so spectacularly unsuccessful in preventing
>> typhus epidemics in the camp?

>I’d still like to hear the Giwer-Troll’s source for “it was a large scale
>delousing facility of the pre-Degesh design. Things like mattresses were
>leaned against the outside wall to complete the airing out.”

>Mattreses? According to Otto Freidrich in _The Kingdom of Auschwitz_ the
>prisoners in Auschwitz I “slept in three tiered wooden bunks, half a dozen
>men to a bunk, often with no mattresses or blankets…. The prisoners’
>only consolation was that Birkenau was even worse.”

>And which delousing gas chambers, specifically, were mattresses deloused
>in? Perhaps in Block 3? According to Andreje Rablin (prisoner no. 1410):

>”…In these rooms ther were wooden frames with hooks on which we hung
>clothes… There were many lice in the clothes. Sometimes, filling the
>chamber with clothes took as much as two days….” (_Technique_, p.25>)

>Nope, not the delousing gas chambers in Block 3.

>How about Block 26? According to Pressac:

>”According to <> conserved at the PMO, volume 100 page 48, a
>clothing delousing installation was installed in two rooms of the ground
>floor of Block 26…. The disinfestation agen tis not known. The plans on
>the inventory drawing suggest a complex installation using steam, the
>situation dating from February 1942 and, it would appear definitive since
>the installation was designed almost a year and a half earlier. It could
>be that initially it functioned in a primative manner as gas chambers
>using Zyklon-B, made gas tight by using strips of paper, and ventilated by
>two air extraction fans.” (Ibid. p. 24.)

>Hmm. Not likely, as it was probably a _clothing_ delousing installlation
>that used steam.

>Block 1? Probably not, as it seems to have been an ad hoc delousing gas
>chamber dating from about mid-August 1942 (during the typhus epidemic),
>for delousing personal effects. (Ibid. p.27.)

>Or the delousing gas chambers in the reception building? Nope. They were
>used for quick delousing of the clothing of prisoners being admitted and
>registered into the camp. (Ibid. p.31.)

>How about the two delousing gas chambers at Kanada I? According to Josef
>Odi, who worked there in the spring of 1944:

>”…There I disinfected the effects of people who had been killed. Furs
>and valuable objects that could not be disinfested by steam were
>disinfested using Zyklon-B, the same method that was used in the gas
>chambers to kill men…. The disinfestation was organized as follws: all
>the furs and valuable objects to be disinfested were hung up…. (Ibid.
>p.41.)

>Nope, the disinfestation of the clothes and valuables of the victims took
>place there.

>How about the the disinfestation gas chambers of Bauwerken 5a and 5b?
>Again, according to Pressac:

>”…Simplifying the procedure somewhat, the prisoners entered, from left
>to right on the first two drawings […], through the windbreak entrance
>into the <> room where they undressed […] and their clothes were
>taken through the <> anteroom and airlock to the gas chamber. After
>the destruction of the lice using hydrocyanic acid, the effects were once
>more available to the prisoners, rid of parasites but still just as
>dirty….” [And still full of typhus-carrying lice feces, btw.] (Ibid.
>p.53.)

>Nope, sounds like 5a and 5b were used to delouse the prisoners’ clothes.

>So what was that about mattresses propped up against the outside walls of
>the delousing gas chambers? Sounds like more silly drivel from the
>Giwer-Troll….

>But wait! on page 54 of _Technique_ there’s the testimony of Macha Ravine
>(no. 35,334) regarding a delousing (the first?) of the Blocks in the
>Woman’s camp:

>”On the appointed day, at 2 o’clock in the morning there was a general
>turn out. First we had to carry our straw mattresses and blankets to the
>disinfestation…. After soup (it was 5 o’clock in the afternoon) they
>took us back, still naked to our Block. By now we were too tired to feel
>our humiliation so keenly as we had in the morning. The Block, which had
>been disinfested was not yet open and we had to wait outside…. Finally
>the door was opened and we rushed inside and went to our bunks of bare
>boards. The mattresses and blankets were still in the disinfestation
>building…. A few days later the lice reappeared. The first delousing had
>thus resulted in nothing other than hundreds of cases of pneumonia and
>some tuberculosis and we watched our ranks diminish day by day. Still
>another method of extermination. The camp merited its name: <extermination camp.>> (Ibid. p.54.)

>Ah, so mattresses _were_ taken to a disinfestation facility, according to
>the _eyewitness testimony_ of Macha Ravine. Oh, my, such a conundrum this
>must put the Giwer-Troll in! After all, the Giwer-Troll says eyewtness
>testimony is unreliable and cannot be used as evidence!

>But given that the Giwer-Troll is a hypocrite, I’m sure he’d insist that
>Ravine’s testimony is valid. That mattresses _were_ disinfested. But was
>it done in a gas chamber? Was Zyklon B used to disinfest them?

>The disinfestation facility in the women’s camp used _hot air_ to
>disinfest. As did the one in the Gypsey camp. The disinfestation facility
>in the Zentral Sauna [the “Sauna”] used hot air, steam, and Karbol, Lizol,
>or water containing hydrocyanic acid. (Ibid. pp.58, 63, 65.)

>Oh well, it looks like the Giwer-Troll was simply spouting drivel after all….

>Why am I not suprised?

>Mark

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem trolls talk again
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:02:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 4:04:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Ken McVay OBC) said:

>>> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
>>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
>>> implying that we is observant?” (Matt Giwer)

>>Mr. McVay, I am shocked. Here you are posting “raw” Giwerian without the
>>obligatory translation. Shame! Do you really think everyone in this
>>newsgroup understands Giwerian-Trollish as well as you do? Have a heart,
>>sir!

>Alas, good sir, this particular sample has never been
>satisfactorily translated. It appears to be a unique blend of
>Full Hootch and Moranic, and is quite beyond the capability of
>current Giwerundean linguists.

>–
>Nizkor Canada | Shofar FTP Archives
>———————–| WEST: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
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>Education Resource | EUROPE: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:16:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 4:18:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (A Huber) wrote:

>>You dare to doubt this proof? There is a photo of the ashes! What
>more
>>proof
>>do you need? Can’t you tell from the ashes that these were Jews, and
>that
>>they
>>were burned alive? It’s so obvious that only a denier could question it.

>I am SHOCKED that Sandra would doubt such a thing as pictures of ashes. I
>will reprimand her when I get back from the West Coast. She will cough up
>an apology forthwith……….

Even fifthwith.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:19:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 4:21:45 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>There were also huge numbers of corpses that had to be burned, and they
>>were burned in large pyres in the street. It took several weeks to burn
>>them all. Photographs are around.

>And how did they burn them, Mr. Ehrlich? How do we know that?

As an example of the uselessness of the killfile routine.

This dummy does not realize that is arguements are such that should
irrefutable physical evidence be found tomorrow of his beloved gassing,
that he is setting the groundwork for ignoring it.

But then no one ever said holohuggers are very bright and no one is
permitted to explain with he really meant unless claiming to be a psyic
in the Hillary Clinton league.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 46057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nwgw.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:43:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:61795 alt.politics.usa.republican:222447 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:327044 alt.politics.perot:49648 alt.revisionism:46057

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>One of my sig’s reads:

> To have compassion on animals is one of the laws of Moses.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) could not refute my conclusions and
>decided to try to bait me instead:

> Moses never existed. There were no commandments. Jews were not
> chosen. They were self annoited.

>I responded:

> And Mr. Giwer’s IQ is not 163. Mr. Giwer is not interested in
> the truth. Mr. Giwer gets his kicks from provoking people to
> anger — it is an inappropriate way of dealing with his own
> repressed rage.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> You have been reading too much Psychology Today. Or do you
> fancy yourself an armchair Freud?

>What makes Mr. Giwer think that it would take a “Freud” to analyze
>his psyche? In fact, his neuroses are all too shallow for even a pop
>magazine like Psychology Today to take any interest.

> The truth is there is the Israelites were self-annointed.
> There is nothing to their damn fool beliefs or any other
> religious beliefs. Is that too hard for you to deal with?

>The truth is that Mr. Giwer is an ignoramus who has no idea of what
>the truth actually is, and could care less. He is a deliberate, if
>not compulsive, liar who is not even embarassed by obvious
>contradictions in his statements. He is also a hypocrite who demands
>proof, but never provides any; who asks questions, but never answers
>any; and who resorts to the vilest kind of name calling when his lies
>are exposed.

>Is that too hard for Mr. Giwer to deal with?

>–
>Harry Katz

>Rather be thou the tail among lions than the head among foxes.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 46061 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:30:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26 5:33:20 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>In article , [email protected]

>>Mark, this was a good detailed post. On this last point, however, I think
>>there is a problem. I understand that the letter is part of a series:
>>ABCDE which relates to different grades of the product. _Folk etymology_
>>gave us the equivalence of B and *Blausaure* which as you correctly note
>>means (blue+sour) or (blue+acid), or more precisely just *prussic acid*
>>i.e., cyanide. According to Berg, in the Zyklon article on the CODOH site,
>>the terms became interchangeable.

>Hilberg seems to concur:

> TESTA sold Zyklon in different concentrations. Invoices
> presented to municipal or industrial clients for fumigations
> of buildings were printed with headings C, D, E, and F, each
> denoting a category of potency and price. As explained in a
> letter to the Ostland, strength E was required for the
> eradication of specially resistant vermin, such as cockroaches,
> or for gassings in wooden barracks. The “normal” preparation
> D was used to exterminate lice, mice, or rats in large,
> well-built structures containing furniture. Human organisms
> in gas chambers were killed using Zyklon B.

>[Hilberg, (1985), p.888]

Based upon clinical trials no doubt.

This is perhaps the funniest thing posted yet.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:55 PDT 1996
Article: 46063 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:12:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison said:

>>
>>[email protected] wrote:

>>But if you have to lie, at least make it somewhat believable. It’s
>>getting much too easy to prove you wrong. Hardly a challenge any more
>>(not that it ever was).

>>How much does anyone want to bet I get either more cryptic phrases or a
>>non-reply with the added spam .sig?

>That is indeed what you will get, since Giwer is reduced to nothing more.

>He has lost and doesn’t even understand it, let alone why.

Return-Path:
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id smaOVkDe7; Wed Jun 19 02:58:23 1996
From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46068 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:48:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

Nice try but these also contrain contradictory statements at the same
time.

>> [email protected] writes:
>>
>> # The pipes are still callin’ you. You refuse to consider
>> # the total lack of physical evidence of gassing.
>>
>> We have to decide what “physical evidence” means to “revisionists”.
>>
>> I suggest you show us what it means by supplying such evidence
>> for WW2. But, we are allowed to use “revisionist” type
>> arguments to question your evidence. We will very easily
>> “prove” that WW2 didn’t take place. Heck, we already supplied
>> a “revisionist proof” that Dresden was never bombed, because
>> of these absurd testimonies about people melting into puddles
>> of flesh, or turning into an “undulating layer of fine gray
>> ashes”, although no fire even touched them!
>>
>> With the collapse of the Dresden hoax, the WW2 myth will also
>> crumble (If we use “revisionist logic”, that is).
>>
>> # You refuse to consider that no testimony corroborates the present
>> # story of the physical layout of the places gassing is supposed to
>> # have taken place.
>>
>> Your claim is utterly false.
>>
>> # ONE and ONLY ONE mention of going down the stairs at Birkenau would do
>> # more for the credibility of gassing than you can possbily imagine.
>>
>> And who says no such testimony exists?

>Indeed! I can think of few off-hand:

>According to Dr. Nysizli:

>”…Then they advanced for about 100 yards along a cinder path edged with
>green grass to an iron ramp,

No 100 yard path in the LK aerial photos. No iron ramp in the LK
drawings on Nizkor.

>from which to or twelve concrete steps led
>underground to an enourmous room dominated by a large sign in German,
>French, Greek, and Hungarian: ‘Baths and Disinfecting Room.’ The sign was
>reassuring, and allayed the misgivings or fears of even the most
>suspicious amiong them. They went down the stairs almost gaily.”
>(_Auschwitz: a doctor’s eyewitness account, p.49.)

Save the labeling of the Krema aerial pictures requires them to have
been naked at this point.

>According to Dr. Bendal:

>”The convoy of the condemmned entered via a wide stone stairway into a big
>underground room that served as an undressing room.

The labeling of the Krema labeling has an above ground room as the
undressing room. Sorry about that.

The order was given
>that everyone had to bathe and then go for disinfestation. Each person
>attached his things together and, supreme illusion, placed them on a
>numbered hanger. From there, completely naked, he went through a narrow
>corridor into the gas chamber proper….” (_Technique_, p.495.)

They were all supposed to be naked upon entering the LK as they had
undressed in another building.

>According to Henryk Tauber:

>”…People went from the crematorium yard to the undressing room via a
>stairway [..], surrounded by iron rails. Over the [entrance] door there
>was a sign with the inscription <> (to bath
>and disenfection), written in several languages. In the undressing room
>[..], there were wooden benches and numbered clothes hooks along the walls
>[..]. There were no windows and the lights were on all the time. The
>undressing room also had water taps [..] and drains for the waste water.
>From the undressing room people went into the corridor through a door [..]
>above which was hung a sign marked <> [to the bath], repeated in
>several languages. I remember the word <> [Russian for <bath>>] was there too. From the corridor they went through the door on
>the right [..] into the gas chamber….” (_Technique_, p.483.)

Sorry but the labeled undressing room on the aerial photos are still the
above ground room.

>Does this make the “credibility of gassing” thrice as credible to the
>Giwer-Troll? Or cannot he “possbily imagine” such?

You have provided statements that contradict the LK as being gas
chambers. You have provided evidence that they were undressing rooms
contrary to undressing first and then moving to the gas chamber.

>> # ONE mention carrying bodies a few steps to the Kremas would do the
>> same.
>>
>> An elevator was used to bring the corpses to the floor in which
>> the cremation furnaces was.

>Again, according to Henryk Tauber:

>”…This group took the corpses from the gas chamber [..] into the
>corridor [..] near the lift. There a barber cut off the women’s hair, then
>the bodies were taken on the lift to the <> level, On this
>floor they were put in the store room or taken directly to the <room>>, where they were heaped in front of the furnaces. Then two
>dentists, under the surveillance of the SS. pulled out metal fillings and
>false teeth.” (_Technique_, p.489.)

There is no boiler room in the Kremas.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46070 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:06:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 10:08:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) said:

>>> None of the holohuggers are journalists or historians. Their major
>>>darlings such as Wiesenthal, Pressac and Hilberg are not historians or
>>>journalists.

>>Raul Hilberg is a Professor Emeritus in the Department of History at the
>>University of Vermont where he taught from 1956.

>You didn’t expect much better from the Liar-Giwer did you, John?

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

Anyone want to explain this one?

” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
built in for mass
extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being
led to the bath-house, the
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor
was electrified in a
special way; there they were killed. ”
IMT VII – p.576-577.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 46074 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:08:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:10:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>[re: so-called “harassment” of his family]
>>
>>>: I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it,
>>>: that is your problem.
>>
>>>It’s not a matter of what I believe or don’t believe. You have presented
>>>*no* evidence (as in zero, zilch, zip) for your claim. And by your own
>>>arguments, if there’s no evidence, it didn’t happen. Right?
>>
>> I have presented EXACTLY as much evidence as you have for you imbecile
>>little holocaust, eyewitness testimony. If mine is no good, yours is no
>>good.

> What about documents? I believe you called the Wannsee Protocol
>evidence when you wanted to argue it said nothing about gassing. (Of
>course, neither Danny Keren – whom you falsely stated posted the German
>version – nor Gordon McFee, who actually was the one who did it – ever
>said it did.)

> So let’s talk documents. Let’s start with one about gas vans which
>was apparently affirmed by Rauff in a deposition in Chile, where (I
>believe) he was safe from extradition. You seem to conveniently forget
>about that one. You diverted attention with a specious comment about
>translation which you were not qualified to make. But you never addressed
>the substance. Would you care to do so now? Or will you go back to your
>claim that there is nothing but testimony, even though you have reason to
>know it is false?

Lets us first start with a captured gas wagon. Eyewitness testimony put
into writing does not make for evidence.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 46077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 10 mindless, repetitive posts
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:13:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:15:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Keren just did this. They are all off topic to revisionism.

>Testimonies by SS-men about mass murder are “off topic
>to revisionism”?

It is exterminationist repetition without comment. Ten of them in a
row. If I had done it it would be called spamming. Yes, very off
topic.

>You’re insane. Seek help.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The holohugger conspiracy
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:16:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 2:18:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>> I won, I continue to win and will continue to do so. You reaslly
>>>>intelligent idiots are no match for me even when you combine your
>>>>non-existant brain power.
>>
>>> I have a six-year-old nephew who also likes to go around saying, “I
>>>win! I win!”
>>
>> You must have missed the original message.

>[Irrelevant repost snipped]

> You actually reposted something. And I didn’t even ask for it. What
>happened to the Giwer Rule?

I have no rule about posting what people have obviously missed.

> So? You are now claiming that whatever Jamie McCarthy says is true
>just because he says it?

And McFly. Don’t forget him.

> You have only rediscovered what Serdar Argic found out long ago. You
>merely have the advantage of having more ready-made material from Raven’s
>and Smith’s web sites to work with.

And Nizkor’s site. I got a lot from them, too.

> As for coming in under different names to escape the killfile, you
>have only figured out what T. M. “Cat3wog” Kaus has been doing for months.
>And I don’t think he has a 163 IQ. Yet he seems to have figured it out
>before you did.

The name change trick was old hat 15 years ago.

> I am still not impressed. Sorry about that.

When see the results you might be.

> And since I never tried to play any game other than the one which I
>have always played, you have not beaten me. Because you are playing a
>completely different game, one I never agreed to play. Sorry about that
>again. But I never expected anything but six-year-old behavior from you.

You are just being stubborn.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 46085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 03:22:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 8:24:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

>> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
>> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic

>David Irving “concedes” that at least 4 million died. Do try
>and get your stories straight.

>> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
>> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
>> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
>> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount

>Interestingly, the SS didn’t seem to have a problem with
>starvation… the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can
>Mr. Beaulieu address that issue?

As we know the story involves only one picture of what are claimed to be
women the SS hired. They are described as having been prostitutes and
various lowlife.

And McVay can not figure out a very human and professional explanation,
food for sex.

Can’t be. Must be PNE again.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 46087 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 03:47:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 8:50:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> It is really very simple. Their baseline was samples from places that
>>were likely fumigated “once or never.” They failed to discriminate
>>between the two. For all they knew all of their samples were were from
>>places never fumigated. And thus they had no HCN exposure baseline.

>>>Sorry, they had a baseline (analysing a material without CN- for
>>>sensitivity) and the Gasskammers (in some places with three repeated
>>>blind measurements) were positive.

>> I still have the original post. It said “once or never” for the
>>baseline. Those results were negative. Thus they can represent never.
>>Thus it is useless.

>Me too. Read it again. “The calibration curve was constructed
>previously and standards with a known CN- content were introduced into
>each series of determinations to check the curve and teh course of
>determination. [..]. Having applied this method for many years, we
>have opportunities to find its high sensitivity, specificity and
>precision. Under present circumstances we established the lower limit
>of determinability of cyanide ions at a level of 3-4 ug CN- in 1 kg of
>the sample”.

>That’s the baseline you wanted.

That is a description of the capabilities of the measurement technique,
not of the measurements themselves. I have no idea how you can confuse
the two.

>>>> Beyond that, I have yet to see any analysis of the quality of the
>>>>Leuchter report. All I have seen are personal attacks upon Leuchter
>>>>which has nothing to do with the report. It has been like attacking
>>>>relativity because the theory came from a patent examiner.

>>>> But perhaps you could post an analysis of Leuchter’s report that is not
>>>>a personal attack upon Leuchter. Perhaps you would do that analysis
>>>>yourself? Or post someone else’s. It doesn’t matter to me.

>>>It’s easy: if you pick some pieces where blue prussian is visible
>>>(thus, no blind) you are very likely to find it, and in other places,
>>>when you pick anywhere any white piece you’re likely to not find blue
>>>prussian (the only component looked for).

>> That is not how he describes his method. How do you know?

>I can understand that this summary will not suit you or Leuchter. But
>that’s what he mades. I explained where the baseline is in the Cracow
>report. It’s your turn to explain what Leuchter was looking for it if
>was not prussian blue only, and to explain why.

You confused the measurement threshold of the measurement method with
the baseline samples for the tests.

And then you claim he was only looking for blue when he made no such
statement. And now you want me to explain something that exists only in
your imagination.

You are unqualified to conduct a discussion of any scientific matter.
Please do not further waste my time save to ask for an explanation of
how this kind of test is done.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 46090 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 05:12:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:14:52 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>The LIAR GIWER

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

ALWAYS resorts to put downs, and nasty talk to nice
>people when his ass begins to bleed, either from hemmoroids or ass
>kicking. But you can tell, he gets mean and low down. I’d even go so
>far as to wonder about GEIRWER’s PMS syndrome. It’s possible according
>to the Liar Giwer.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

>william c anderson wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> : If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
>> : fatbroad.

>Who you callin a fat broad, Gywer? Don’t call a war hero like me a fat
>broad. Oh hell, I’ve put on a few pounds since I was one of the
>hottest fighter pilots in the ETO. But I bet I could still squeeze
>into my P-47. Little vasoline might help.

You are finally a self-identified war hero. Why did it take so long for
you to say what you have been implying for months?

>> : The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know it. You
>> : have no other qualifications.

>Now, lemme axe you a serious question, Gwyir? You got spies at nixker?
>Or what ever the outfit is. You spying on internal affairs…so to
>speak? You sneaky little twerp, you. (a twerp is a sickie like Gieyer
>who farts in the bathtub and bites at the bubbles)!
>> :
>> : You contribute nothing.

>Yeah, maybe so, but we all realize your value to society. Right?
>ZILCH minus
>> :
>> : You accept only sperm from a thing.

>Yeah but, you get it all over your hands, baaaaarrrrffff!
>>
>> Boy. Just when you think he can’t sink any lower…

>They jus’ ain’t no bottom in hell. Deep holes, Gywier, deep holes. An’
>one day, they’re gonna throw your no-good ass in one. I pray to the
>Virgin Mary, for your wasted life on this earth.

>Chucky (the fullback of the Ninth Air Corpse)
>tha war wudda bin over sunner if they’d given me another airplane. But
>no-o-o-o-.
>Now you be nice, before we come after ya wit a big stik

>>
>> Bill

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 08:04:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46103 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving’s ‘Goebbels’ book now available
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:43:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 10:45:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Freethgt) wrote:

>Hillary Ostrov writes:
>>Would you deny a publisher the right to have “standards”, Mr. Coons?
>>Is it your contention that _all_ publishers are obliged to publish
>>that which is submitted to them, Mr. Coons? Or that such standards
>>constitute “censorship”? Perhaps if you were to remove your “free
>>speech absolutist spectacles”, Mr. Coons, you would recognize that
>>this issue – as well as others on which you have commented – is not
>>quite as black or white as you would like to believe.

>Standards are of course essential. No one could disagree. However this
>was clearly not the case regarding Mr. Irving’s latest volume. Mr. Thomas
>Dunne (of St. Martin’s) was quoted in the New York Times of April 5, 1996
>as follows:
>”I was the first one to suggest that we haul down the flag on this one.
>There’s been all this mud-splattering on innocent people, horrible phone
>calls and death threats. Orders to our college departments were
>canceled.” Mr. Dunne said he himself had received several anonymous death
>threats.

>Some topics are clearly forbidden to speak of these days. It is
>interesting to note that Irving is actually terribly critical of Goebbels
>in this volume. He opens Section I with a small picture of Goebbels and
>the title of the section, “The Hater of Mankind.” Maybe if a few of those
>anonymous callers actually read the volume, they might find that they
>agree with Mr. Irving.

Have you ever known a censor to read what they censor, unless it a
pornography where they have to read it to be sure.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 09:46:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: interesting email
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:39:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 10:41:53 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Freethgt wrote:

>>Ah but Jamie isn’t this a newsgroup devoted to REVISIONISM. It is the
>>non-revisionist material that is “crap.” Maybe you should take your
>>truth-bashing somewhere else.

>Perhaps, Mr. or Ms. Anonymous could post an example of truth-bashing on
>the part of “conventionalists.” Perhaps, Mr. or Ms. anonymous could
>show his/her commitment to the truth by engaging in rational discourse
>on the subject at hand. How come none of the deniers are ever able to
>do that?

The same old bullshit repeats itself one more time.

Rational discourse by holohuggers defined as harrassment of the person
and their family in any manner possible.

How many deniers are willing to put up with the harrassment?

How many can stomach the sanctimonious denials of holohuggers?