Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p5

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 09:49:09 PDT 1996
Article: 44845 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what is a picture without a caption?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:01:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Rather what do we do with people who falsely caption pictures to promote lies?
>>
>>12/16/83: The West German weekly newspaper Deutsche National-Zeitung publishes a
>> sketch made by Simon Wiesenthal (which first appeared in Wiesenthal’s 1946 book, KZ
>> Mauthausen) that supposedly shows three Mauthausen inmates who had been bound
>> to posts and sadistically put to death by the Germans. Unfortunately for friends of the
>> Holocaust myth (and Wiesenthal’s almost non-existent credibility), the newspaper also
>> reprints three photos from the July 11, 1945 Life magazine that record the firing-squad
>> execution of three German soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge. The connection?
>> Wiesenthal’s sketch is shown to be nothing more than a poor rendition of the Life photos
>> with a politically-correct caption. For those familiar with Wiesenthal’s book, you will
>> remember that he also cites a

>*** Attention, Revisionist manipulative tactic ***

>Giwer tries to imply that Simon Wiesenthal’s sketch of the brutal murder he witnessed in
>Mauthausen and the photograph of the three shot soldiers appeared coincidently on the
>neutral grounds of a newspaper, and thus are comparable. This is not true. I have to
>inform the non-German readers that the “Deutsche national-Zeitung” is an ultra-rightwing
>combat paper that openly sympathizes with the lies of the holocaust deniers. The pictures
>have been deliberately put together to denounce Wiesenthal’s experiences as propaganda.
>Giwer’s publishing this post is an attempt of increasing the manipulative impact of
>the “Nationalzeitung”.

If you have nothing substantive to contribute, do no bother.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 10:57:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44860 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:35:39 GMT
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>:: Why does the gas chamber still have cyanide traces on its walls?

>: Same reason there are traces on the outside walls. It was a large scale
>: delousing facility of the pre-Degesh design. Things like mattresses
>: were leaned against the outside wall to complete the airing out.

>If this is the case, then an obvious question suggests itself. If
>Auschwitz was equipped with such extensive delousing facilities and
>these were used to such a great extent, how is it that the people
>running the camp were so spectacularly unsuccessful in preventing
>typhus epidemics in the camp?

You are going to argue against the louse infected eastern Jews that made
it necesary?

Or are you going to side with the Soviet propaganda that insisted they
were louse infested?

As to how diseases break out, that is a question of epidemiology. The
miracle is that the other diseases of close living like dysentary and
cholera did not occur. That testifies to a very well run camp.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 10:57:06 PDT 1996
Article: 44862 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That wild and crazy “evidence” at the IMT
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:41:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>ERNST KALTENBRUNNER

>>During Kaltenbrunner’s cross examination, he was indignantly asked how he
>>had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
>>witnesses were lying (XI 349 <<385>>).

>Ernst Kaltenbrunner succeeded Heydrich as head of the
>Reichsicherheitshauptamt (RSHA). Among his other duties, he played a key
>role in the extermination of the Jews. Kaltenbrunner was such a loser that
>even the other Nazi prisoners couldn’t stand him. Among the actions of this
>”big, brave SS man”: he cried when served his indictment; he cried
>incessantly in the dock during the trial; he steadfastly denied that his own
>signature on documents was his. What a hero. };->

A man knowing he is being forced to go through a sham trial as the
preparation for his foreordained execution can be excused a lot.

However that does not excuse what the IMT did to him or the manner in
which they conducted the so called trial.

Nor does it excuse your omission of the of the nature of the witnesses
against him in an attempt to make a point in favor of his trial and
conviction.

ERNST KALTENBRUNNER

During Kaltenbrunner’s cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
he had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
witnesses were lying (XI 349 <<385>>).

The “eyewitnesses”, of course, did not appear in court; they were merely
names on pieces of paper. One of these names is that of Franz Ziereis,
commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp.

Ziereis “confessed” to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades out of
human skin; manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a complicated
table of statistical information containing the exact number of inmates
in 31 different camps. He then accused Kaltenbrunner of ordering the
entire camp (Mauthausen) to be killed upon the approach of the
Americans.

Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
“confession”. Fortunately, the “confession” has been “remembered” by
someone else: a concentration camp inmate named Hans Marsalek, who never
appeared in court, but whose signature appears on the document (Document
3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286).

Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!), including
the statistical table, which states, for example, that there were 12,000
inmates at Ebensee; 12,000 at Mauthausen; 24,000 at Gusen I and II; 20
inmates at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at Klagenfurt-Junkerschule, etc,
for all of 31 camps in the table.

The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
at Ziereis’s “confession”, and no notes alleged to have been taken at
the time are appended to the document. The document bears two signatures
only: that of Hans Marsalek, the inmate; and that of Smith W. Brookhart
Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date 8 April 1946. Ziereis died 23
May 1945.

The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
multiple gunshot wounds through the stomach) to sign anything at the
time, but he was healthy enough to dictate this lengthy and complex
document, which was then “remembered” exactly and verbatim by Marsalek
for 10 and a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had no
motivation to lie. The document is in German. Brookhart was a confession
ghostwriter who also wrote the “confessions” of Rudolf Höss (in English,
Document 3868-PS) and Otto Ohlendorf (in German, Document 2620-PS).

(Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington Iowa. Address in
1992: 18 Hillside Drive, Denver Colorado, USA. Brookhart never answered
my letter as to whether he had any papers or memoirs.)

Ziereis’s “confession” continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
Shirer, Hilberg, and other itinerant peddlars of Holo-Schlock.

Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps or
“Stammlager” during the war (XI 268-269 <<298-299>>). The prosecution
total of 300 concentration camps was achieved by including perfectly
normal work camps. The 13th camp, Matzgau, near Danzig, was a special
camp whose prisoners were SS guards and police who had been sentenced to
imprisonment for offenses against prisoners in their charge: physical
mistreatment, embezzlement, theft of personal property, etc. This camp
with its inmate SS men fell into the hands of the Russians at the end of
the war (XI 312, 316 <<345, 350>>).

Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts were
far more severe than sentences passed by other courts for the same
offenses. The SS carried out frequent trials of their own men for
offenses against inmates and violations of discipline (XXI 264-291,
369-370 <<294- 323, 408-409>>).

Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the sole
purpose of obtaining information relating to future resistance activity;
it was forbidden for the purpose of obtaining confessions. These
interrogators required the presence of a doctor, and allowed a total of
20 blows with a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a process which
could not be repeated later. Other forms of legal “Nazi torture”
included confinement in a dark cell, or standing during lengthy
interrogations (XX 164, 180-181 <<184, 202-203>>; XXI 502-510; 528-530
<<556-565, 583-584>>).

Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
methods were used by police all over the world (XI 312 <<346>>) and that
respected police officials visited Germany to study German procedures
(XXI 373 <<412>>).

Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands of
pages divided between the Tribunal and “commission”, and 136,000
affidavits (XXI 346-373 <<382-412>>; 415 <<458>>, 444 <<492>>).

Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to “lynch” Allied airmen who
committed mass bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been
illegal, but did not occur. Many airmen were saved from mobs by German
officials. The Germans refused to contemplate such a matter, fearing it
would lead to a general slaughter of parchuted fliers. Like so many
other German crimes, this remained an idea without effect (XXI 406-407
<<449- 450>>, 472-476 <<522-527>>).

Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the so-
called “Bullet Order”. This is supposed to have been an order to shoot
prisoners of war using a measuring contraption (probably inspired by the
Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain bashing machine, Document USSR-52, VII
377 <<416-417>>).

The “Bullet Order”, Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
which it probably is not (XVIII 35-36 <<43-44>>) is a mistranslation:
the sense of the order is that prisoners who attempt to escape should be
chained to an iron ball (Kugel), and not that they should be shot with a
“bullet” (also Kugel). The word “chained” appears in the document, but
the word “shot” does not (III 506 <<565>>; XXI 514 <<568>>); Gestapo
affidavit 75; XXI 299 <<332>>). The document is a “teletype” thus,
without a signature (XXVII 424-428).

“Sonderbehandlung” (special treatment) is an example of the ugly jargon
used in all bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as “treatment
on a case by case basis”. Kaltenbrunner was able to show that it meant,
in the context of one document, the right to drink champagne and take
French lessons. The prosecution got a winter resort mixed up with a
concentration camp (XI 338-339 <<374-375>>); (XI 232-386 <<259-427>>;
XVIII 40-68 <<49-80>>). (The winter resort document is Document 3839-PS,
XXXIII 197- 199, an “affidavit”).

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 10:57:07 PDT 1996
Article: 44868 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay: Not Addressing the Question
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:08:35 GMT
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Laura Finsten wrote:

>Craig, Matt Giwer is a demented troller who does nothing much
>but try to provoke angry responses from people. This sort of
>nonsense is a good example.

You must be as fat as Ostrov.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 11:45:16 PDT 1996
Article: 10875 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:11:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Alan R Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

> If you are indeed correct, then in fact revisionism is completely on
> topic. Or can in not be discussed in any context?

>There is a newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of revisionism:
>alt.revisionism. soc.history.what-if is for discussion of what would
>have happened if past events had not happened as they did.
>Revisionism is the denial that past events did happen and so is not on
>topic in this newsgroup.

What if the deniers are correct? Is that not on topic? If not, why
not?

But what is it you refer to as denial?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 11:45:16 PDT 1996
Article: 10876 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: alt.flame.revisionism
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:14:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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I have started posting here some considerations within the bounds of
what appears to be the NG.

You will note that the flamers are following me.

My apologies but I can not control those who insist upon others holding
the beliefs they insist upon.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 11:45:17 PDT 1996
Article: 10878 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:14:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]p.HARVARD.EDU> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Cheradenine Zakalwe wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
> writes:
>>
>>>Or are you tacitly admitting that the Holocaust did, in fact, occur, and
>>>that discussion of it is therefore _not_ in general alternate history?
>>
>> It not having occurred, according to you, fits alternate history.
>>
>> So lets continue but lets also start from the base of what did in fact
>>happen.

>Which in your opinion is?

That the only place the basis for the stories that comprise the only
reason for the name holocaust come from territories that were liberated
by the Russians even though the same organizations were operating under
the same orders in territories liberated by the other allies.

I guess that is not so much an opinion but a fact.

But then defining the holocaust is a very illusive matter. It means all
things to all people.

But primarily it relies upon the entire understanding of the entire camp
system and operation and end of war disasters by the term “evil Nazis”
and refuses to look any further. Or, frankly, to permit any looking
further without name calling.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 11:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 10889 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:44:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Godfrey Kwokfu Tang) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Godfrey Kwokfu Tang) wrote:

>: >: there was no effective way to deal with submarines until about the mid
>: >: 1970s.

>: >This is flat out wrong. The most effective way to deal with
>: >submarines circa WWII was to route convoys around them. Hence,
>: >the importance of Ultra.

>: That of course would depend entirely upon the code breaking and the
>: continued ability at code breaking. But then the postulate was 500
>: submarines. There wouldn’t be many places to route around in that case.

>I was merely addressing your contention above that there *was* no
>way to deal with subs. I don’t care to speculate about this
>”what-if”, myself. But you might be interested to know
>that in 1939 Donitz felt 300 U-boats were necessary for victory.

Good point. I spent my time trying to put them on the bottom not trying
to avoid them.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 13:26:41 PDT 1996
Article: 44878 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:41:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> Here I keep seeing it said this guy Giwer is a troll and then he
>>>>unleashes a cornucopia, a rapid fire, a whole volley, a flood, a
>>>>hurricane, a 100 mega-ton series of articles that just about washes up
>>>>the Holocaust story.

>>>Very interesting Li’l Tommy … if I hadn’t noticed the headers in
>>>this post I would have thought I was reading something from one of
>>>Ingrid’s Z-grams! Lots of effusion and one big lie camouflaged by
>>>zero substance.

>> Of course, naturally, no doubt you don’t care to elaborate, right?

>Hmm, let’s think a moment, perhaps we can solve that riddle by sheer power of mind.
>Where could that darned lie hide… Giwer is a troll? Nah… He did
>post many lines of text? No, neither… Well, what is left over, Mr. Moran? Can
>you guess?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 13:26:42 PDT 1996
Article: 44879 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:03:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>>Posted, and emailed to “DvdThomas” to remind him that I’m still waiting.
>>>Cc’d to Ernst Zuendel and Ingrid Rimland to remind them, again, that her
>>>comments on Zuendel’s calls for censorship have been archived and
>>>responded to, and that of course if they have any more comments, those
>>>will be archived as well. (No, we haven’t heard from them either.
>>>Strange how these folks all seem to get very quiet when faced with the
>>>hard, cold facts of Zuendel’s censormongering.)

>> Where can I find his position on citizenship for Zundel? Or do you
>>accept that he supports free speech for Zundel but not in Canada?

>I haven’t clue what this has to do with the Holocaust, but it seems to
>me (and I get this from reading the NG) that Ken is all for Zundel’s
>free speech. It seems that it is the Canadian Government that doesn’t
>want Zundel. I don’t beleive Ken McVay has any control over the
>citizenship of Canadians.

I asked for his position on the matter. I have read it but no one will
believe it if I restate it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:16:58 PDT 1996
Article: 44883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:29:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 2:31:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>and his success in monopolizing discussion.

>Here are the statistics for June 14th through 16th:

> Total number of articles posted: 834

> Articles from Matt Giwer: 185 (22.2%)
> Articles mentioning Giwer: 220 (26.4%)

> Articles per day from Giwer: 61.7
>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 73.3

>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.

>Jun 16: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>For comparison, here is the graph for the previous seven days:

>Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
>Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM

>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>However, it would not be morally proper,

That has never stopped a holohugger before.

since he is not conducting
>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

Why just lie about as you do about everything else?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:16:59 PDT 1996
Article: 44885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An interesting point
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:01:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 5:02:56 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>> I have read that even Thies Christopherson, who denies mass
>>>exterminations, acknowledges that he saw some open-air burning carried
>>>out. And that would of course mix the ashes of the bodies with the ashes
>>>of the fuel. I will attempt to verify this.

>> Which does not explain crematoria in the first place.

>Mr. Stein, the Giwer Troll does not care how above board you are.

>>> They were prisoners and dangerous enemies of the Reich. If they had
>>>just grabbed a bunch of ashes from the incinerator, were the families
>>>going to send them out for forensic testing? Still inefficient.

>> If they were going to do that, they did not need crematoria.

>Mr. Stein, this Giwer Troll does not care how honest you are.

If he were there would be no issue.

>FWIW, they needed the crematoria because the smell of burning flesh
>was disturbing some of the camps inhabitants. Plus using crematoria is
>proper even if used without ethical considerations. It seems that when
>it came to Jews and other perceived untermench, ethics didn’t enter
>into the picture very much. You of all people can understand that, Mr.
>Giwer?

Upon what do you base this little bit of fantasy? That it “stands to
reason” or some such? But at least you point out they were
compassionate about disturbing the inmates.

As for your foolish ethical claim, you know because, eyewitnesses have
said it, that the ashes were used on icy sidewalks and the like.
Therefore an appeal to ethics is a specious arguement.

But you know that. Rather you would ignore that point and slander me
like the holohugger you really are.

>>> Their money was taken. Unlike the political prisoners, no families
>>>were left behind to buy the ashes back. They were going to a lot of
>>>expense for no return. You’re welcome.

>> WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN? If you want to make it up, fine. But you are
>>the first making this claim.

>Read the NG. He isn’t the first. This NG has a long history. Read the
>NG.

I have read it. There has been nothing posted about special treatment
for Jews in taking money.

>> Also we find the prelude to many of the delousing, excuse me, gassing
>>stories is that they are surrendering their valuables. It is not clear
>>how both claims are true at the same time.

>Gosh all the lugage not left at the selection ramp. The above
>statement comes from an idiot not reading the NG.

On the ramp? You mean luggage was found on the ramp after liberation?
Or rather was it not found in warehouses. You know, storing the
possessions of those who died of disease. Have you never noticed that
all of those “send it back to Germany” are in conflict with the piles
that were found?

>>> Gee, I have seen zero reports of existing incinerators large enough to
>>>burn bodies. By your “what I have not seen reported does not exist” rule,
>>>there were none.

>> Would you care to post a few of them? You will make a signficant
>>contribution to the conference as no one else has posted such a report.

>I wouldn’t if I were him. You don’t read the NG.

Lets see. He implies there were no such reports at all. You claim some
have been posted. You two get your story straight and get back to me.

>>>>No mass exterminations. Simply a properly run camp doing exactly what
>>>>the Nazis said it was to do.

>>> Excuse me, do prisons toss executed serial rape-murderers into
>>>incinerators? Let us assume you are correct as to the motive. Where is
>>>it written that one cannot have respect for the dead of the people one
>>>executes? Where is it written that Jews were treated differently in this
>>>matter? No place? Thank you.

>> Excuse me, but certainly you have read the many claims that their ashes
>>were used as fertlizer, on icy sidewalks and the like. That is where it
>>is written. Wait for another round of Keren’s mindless quotes and
>>refresh your memory. So, if you believe those eyewitnesses (and on what
>>grounds would you not?) then there was no such respect.

>The SS or the other folks? All those liars, Giwish, just think of it.
>Many thousands of people making up stories that tend to agree with
>each other. Funny thing, these people hadn’t met each other. Frankly,
>that’s incredible. Might be an act of God since they are all lying.
>Why would God do that?

But they do not agree and that is what I have been posting and what none
of you folks will adress. Rather you folks resort to attacking the
messenger.

>[snipped quite a bit. After all this clown doesn’t read the NG.]

Are you aware in moderated conference on the private nets “I’m not but
you are” is usually specifically banned because it is so childish?

>> But as above, we know there was no respect. Even dumping the ashes in a
>>river can hardly be considered respect.

>First there is respect and then there isn’t.

There has never been any claim of respect for the ashes. The only claim
was that it was to hide the evidence.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT

1/17/85
Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a cross-examination
that took place the
day before, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust “expert” and author
Raul Hilberg admitted
under oath that after 36 years of studying the Holocaust, 1) he
knew of no documentary
(printed) evidence that the Nazis murdered or planned to murder
Jews in gas chambers, 2)
he had identified large parts of the key “confession” of Kurt
Gerstein as to the “gassings”
as “pure nonsense” and “totally false,” 3) when presenting the
Gerstein “confession” as
proof of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in
order to make his point,
4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 5) he
billed himself as a
Holocaust expert for 18 years before even visiting Auschwitz (he
then spent only one day
there), 6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of
which he was alleged to be
the expert, and 7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew
had been gassed. (see
also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the Globe and
Mail, and the Sault Star of
1/18/85.) Understandably, when called upon to testify again in a
later trial, Hilberg begged
off.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:17:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer the Hypocrite
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:30:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 2:32:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines:

> When I was accused of it, it was sufficient justification to
> harrass my service provider until I was removed. It is still
> used as justification for that harrassment. It is also used to
> justify the harrassment of my family.

>To quote Mr. Giwer himself, “…mere rhetoric does not constitute
>harrassment!” — unless, of course, Mr. Giwer is the victim!

> But you know that is what holohuggers are like.

>Yes, we are like convenient whipping boys who allow Mr. Giwer to flog
>his various neuroses and psychoses in public.

>–
>Harry Katz

>To have no faithful friends is worse than death.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

But we all know what holohuggers are like.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:21:29 PDT 1996
Article: 23416 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Are the media inaccurate? Griswald tha turkey
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:11:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]arleton.ca> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33411 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23416 alt.discrimination:48858 alt.revisionism:44887 alt.skinheads:29058 can.politics:53347

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Dear Lester,
>In response to your very thoughtful post of this date, I just wanted
>to express my deep gratitude for your message, which I’m sure comes
>from the heart and is well intended.

>You must have seen the great photo of me posted by Jeannie. You should
>look so good when you’re a grizzled old fart. (but you should also
>live so long).

>Les Griswold wrote:
>>
>> Grizzled old fart Chuckles Ferree ([email protected]) writes:

>clipped all the cheap shots out. But I did mean for you to take my
>advise seriously. Took me many years of self control to learn those
>lessons, which I pass on to you for free and I hope in time.

>> Jealous, old man? What you used to be able to do all night, it now takes
>> you all night to do?

>Not really, just about ten minutes longer, but it’s still a beautiful
>thing. And no kids lurking around the corners.
>>
>> But really, Chuckles, such filthy talk ill suits a distinguished man such
>> as yourself.

>I’m sorry if my advise offended you, Leslie, my boy, it was said with
>the best of intentions, and your health and welfare in mind.

> After all, you’re a hoity-toity hollow-causer, one of those
>> Americans who was everywhere and saw everything.

>Yeah, just about everything there is to see. Plus I’ve done everything
>I ever wanted to do.
>How about you?
>I ask you now, hoity-toity? Is that a wholesome way to put it? The
>other phrase escapes me: hollow-causer, sort of sounds like something
>the Giwer Liar would say. You are maybe low-down, but are you saying
>that you’re at his level? I mean that is one very sick man!

> Should you really be
>> talking about solitary vices?

>Oh, that’s O.K. when you reach the grizzled old fart stage of life. A
>vice is a vice, not too many left.
>>

>> > Even as an old fart, I can still cause punks like you to holler for
>> > help.
>>
>> 🙂

>Right! If you ever see me in a dark alley, better speed it up, cause
>it’s all over quick.
>:-)

>Guess the matter of gas chambers in Dachau is settled then. You lose.

>Chuck
>> Les

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:46:08 PDT 1996
Article: 44888 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Repents
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:31:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]ca> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 2:33:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] posts:

> The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers
> and a boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by
> means of pipes to the chambers. There are terracota floors in
> the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims
> had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
> afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first,
> were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak
> to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and
> kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed
> forward and stumbled over them. Small children were simply
> thrown inside. After being filled up to capacity the chambers
> were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
> all was over.

> IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

>It is good to see that Mr. Giwer can recognize and support
>the truth ocassionally.

>–
>Harry Katz

>On the soul’s appearance before the Divine Tribunal, the first question
>will be, “Hast thou been honest and faithful in all thy dealings?”
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

It is good to find a holohugger who still believes the steaming story.

Now please explain to Keren that it really happened. He doesn’t believe
it.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:46:09 PDT 1996
Article: 44890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, the Crazed Liar, Strikes Again (Re: Degesh 0)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:40:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 157
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 1:42:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Keep believing that. I post enough in this conference to
># make start a healthy skepticism in any unbiased reader.

>Yep. Who can resist claims such as Giwer had made in support of
>”Holocaust revisionism”…

>1) That Belsen camp was really in Poland.

>2) That Zyklon-B would not release any HCN in a temperature of
> 20 degrees (this from a “163-IQ’ed retired engineer”).

>3) That Degesch never manufactured Zyklon with an “Erco” carrier,
> and that such a carrier could not be bluish in color.

>4) That the Krema I gas chamber was really a “delousing chamber”;
> Giwer also claimed it had cyanide residues on its outer wall.
> Naturally, he failed to document this claim.

>5) That the Nazis are not to blame for tens-of-thousands of deaths
> at Belsen (never mind that there were hundreds of tons of food
> nearby, which were nontheless not given to the inmates; they were
> not even given water).

>6) That the testimonies about gassing are “unsigned, un-notarized,
> type written statements provided by the Russians”. (An outright
> lie, of course; most of these testimonies were given before
> German courts).

>7) And, one of my favorites: quoting the old .sig

>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

>And we could go on and on.

>-Danny Keren.

As can I.

JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS

While Germans were being convicted of making human “soap” (taken
seriously in the seventh edition of Oppenheim and Lauterpacht’s
prestigious International Law, vol. II, p. 450) Japanese defendants were
being convicted of making human “soup” in repeated trials.

This is not a misprint; it was considered a “proven fact” in 1948 – a
“fact” proven in numerous “trials” – that the Japanese are a race of
habitual cannibals who were forbidden upon pain of death from devouring
the corpses of their own dead, but who were officially encouraged to eat
Americans. Americans were served fried, or as soup; people were eaten
when other food was available. Thus, the Japanese engage in cannibalism
out of choice rather than necessity. Favourite human body parts for
culinary purposes are liver, pancreas and gall bladder; Chinese are
swallowed in pill form!

Among the “trials” in which this was “proven” are U.S. Tachibana Yochio
and 13 others, Mariana Islands, 2nd-15th August, 1946; Commonwealth of
Australia vs. Tazaki Takehiko, Wewak, 30th November 1945; Commonwealth
of Australia v. Tomiyasu Tisato, Rabaul, 2nd April 1946; and the most
complex war crimes trial in history, the International Military Tribunal
for the Far East (IMTFE) personally supervised by Douglas McArthur,
which lasted from May 1946 until December 1948 (see The Tokyo Judgment,
vol. 1, pp. 409-410, University of Amsterdam Press 1977, pp. 49,674-5 of
mimeographed transcript.

The 25 defendants who survived trial were all convicted; 7 were hanged.

Their crimes included:

Planning, initiation and waging “aggressive war” against the Soviet
Union (the Soviet Union attacked Japan two days after Hiroshima in
violation of a Non-Agression Pact; on this same day the London Agreement
was signed, pursuant to which the Nuremberg Trial was held); planning,
initiation, and waging “aggressive war” against France (France is in
Europe); illegal sea blockade and indiscriminate population bombing
(case against Shimada), that is, the actions of the British in Europe
would have been illegal if committed by the Japanese; trial of war
criminals before a military tribunal (case against Hata and Tojo; see
also U.S. vs. Sawada, probably the most disgusting and hypocritical
accusation of all; the victims were 7 Americans guilty of participating
in the fire-bombing of Tokyo in which 80,000 women and children were
burned to death) and cannibalism. It was not alleged that the defendants
ate anyone personally.

The evidence included:

* Soviet War Crimes Reports * Chinese War Crimes Reports * Soviet
reports based on Japanese documents not attached to the reports *
Summaries of Japanese military aggression in China (written by the
Chinese) * 317 Judge Advocate General War Crimes Reports (total length:
14,618 pages) “quoting” “captured” Japanese documents, diaries,
cannibalism confessions, mass murder orders, orders to gas P.O.W.s on
remote South Sea islands, etc. (“captured documents” not attached to
reports; proof of authenticity not required) * affidavits of Japanese
soldiers imprisoned in Siberia * affidavits of Japanese referring to
Japs as the ‘enemy’ * affidavits of Red Army Officers * newspaper
clippings (admissable evidence for the prosecution, but not usually for
the defense; i.e., events in China were proven by quoting the Chicago
Daily Tribune, the New Orleans Times- Picayune, the Sacrimento Herald,
Oakland Tribune, New York Herald, New York Times, Christian Science
Monitor, etc. * the “affidavit” of Marquis Takugawa (written in English
and not read to him in Japanese) * the statements of Okawa (Okawa was
declared insane and confined to a lunatic asylum, but his statements
were used in evidence) * the testimony of Tanaka (a professional witness
paid by the Americans; Okawa, when drunk, has confessed everything to
Tanaka; Tanaka ‘The Monster’ Ryukichi was supposedly responsible for
millions of atrocities but was not tried, instead he moved freely about
Japan) * Kido’s diary (titbits of gossip about everybody Kido didn’t
like) * Harada’s Memoirs (Harada had suffered a stroke, so his dictation
was incomprehensible; how well he could remember and what he meant to
say were anybody’s guess; the translations were a guess; many different
“copies” had been “corrected” by a variety of people other than the
person to whom he had dictated; added to which he had a reputation for
telling lies).

The Prosecution’s Answer to Defense Arguments at the end of the trial
refutes all defensive evidence, stating that documents (translations of
excerpts “copies” without proof of issuance or signature) are the best
witnesses. If prosecution and defense both quote a document, defense
have quoted out of context, but never the prosecution. Hearsay has
probative value; testimony of defense witnesses has no probative value;
cross- examination is a waste of time.

Five of the 11 judges – William Webb of Australia, Delfin Jaranilla of
the Philippines, and Bert. A. Röling of the Netherlands, Henri Bernhard
of France, and R.B. Pal of India – dissented. Pal wrote a famous 700
page dissentient opinion in which he called the prosecution atrocity
evidence “mostly worthless”, remarking sarcastically that he hoped one
of the documents was in Japanese.

A peculiarity of war crimes trials is that far from “proving” anything,
they all contradict each other. It was held at Tokyo that the Chinese
had a “right” to violate “unfair” treaties, and that Japanese efforts to
enforce such treaties – because they were “unfair” – constituted
“aggression”.

When the atomic bombs were dropped, Shigemitsu had been attempting to
negotiate a surrender for nearly 11 months, beginning on September 14,
1944. This of course became another “crime” – “prolonging the war
through negotiation”.

“Proof” of Japanese cannibal activity may be found in JAG Report 317,
pp. 12,467-8 of mimeographed transcript; Exhibits 1446 and 1447, pp.
12,576-7; Exhibit 1873, pp. 14, 129-30, and Exhibits 2056 and 2056A and
B, pp. 15,032- 42.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 14:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 44891 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:45:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On 18 Jun 1996 12:59:04 -0400, [email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>Mattogno and Graf came across what they refer to only as a highly
>>interesting document in the Soviet archives in Moscow regarding this (or
>>these) cellars that they say will shed light on the meaning of the letter.
>> Should be published in 1997, perhaps sooner.

>Is this the same Carlo Mattagno who purports to refute Pressac’s
>analysis of the Birkenau crematoria by using reference works on
>crematory thermodynamics *all* of which predate the Volckmann-Ludwig
>design which was the the basis for the Birkenau crematoria?

How hard can it be to refute a pharmacist who does not know what a
crystal is?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 15:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 33417 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:35:03 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Ron wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Lary Myles) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>says…
>>
>>>>anything to stifle free speech. So, while I will take
>>>>exception to what you are doing, I sure as hell won’t put my
>>>>money where my mouth is.”
>>
>>
>>>Ahhh…it’s Mr. OiMcVay!! Still beating up on little folks I see. As far as
>>>you not putting up your money where your mouth is…what a surprise. But then
>>>again, as you continue to waste your time embarrasing the Jews in our
>>>community, I guess that comes as no surprise.
>>>I’m really not that surprised to see that you are an anti-Freedom of Speecher
>>>as well.
>>
>> Actually he is very much in favor of free speech. He simply wants to
>>deport those who exercise it so they can speak freely some place else.

> I will ad to serve a 5 year prison term for debating history. That good
>old German government acting like Communists in order to avoid being
>Nazi.

One would think Jews would be the first to speak out against such
things. But then, it fits the form that they do not but rather
encourage more such laws.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:12 PDT 1996
Article: 44895 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A match made in heaven?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:26:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hilary
>Ostrov) said:

>>I do hope the Giwer-troll sees this one. Looks like if he played his
>>cards just right, he might be able to persuade this societal misfit that
>>she should pay him some attention. They obviously have a great deal in
>>common. I think they’ll get along famously.

>>Just imagine! Ingrid will be able to add their thanks to her growing list
>>of appreciative testimonials.

>>And If we are *really* lucky, H*berlette and Giwer-troll will get so
>>involved in their off-line personal correspondence that they will forget
>>all about posting their hate-filled fact-bereft drivel to this newsgroup.

>>And we’ll all post happily ever after. Well, I can dream, can’t I?!

>To dream….the impossible dream……

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:13 PDT 1996
Article: 44897 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s promotion of forgery: Das Lachout Dokum
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:57:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 150
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Ron wrote:

> I do not know is Mr Giwer wrote everything on this list,but there are a
>few thing I’ll comment on.

If you are really interested, not as presented. They are deliberate
mis-statements and distortions at best. Some are outright lies.

But if you are interested in how to deal with personal attacks, return
one of the incredible stupidities about the holocaust instead of a
direct response.

>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>Giwer) said:
>>
>>>
>>>[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Translation: Fat Broad hasn’t got the brights to do anything but play
>>>typist and deliver on her back.
>>
>>Translation: Besotted Giwer-troll is scared out of his wits by the ease
>>with which Ms. Ostrov makes him look a fool in each post and must resort to
>>gutter-smut.
>>
>>A brief sampling of the Giwer-troll lies.
>>
>>1. That the allies did not refer to themselves as the “United
>> Nations”;
>>2. That tape recorders were not available during WWII;
>>3. That head lice are the vector for typhus;
>>4. That the IMT convicted and hung defendants for participating in
>> the Katyn Wood massacre;
>>5. That Oswald Pohl was convicted of “steaming” people to death;

>>6. That Turkey is part of Europe; Last I looked on the Map,part of Turkey is in Europe.

>>7. That Raoul Wallenberg was a financial contributor to building
>> the Holocaust Museum in Washington;
>>8. That there were no protests in front of the Cambodian embassy
>> in Washington;

>>9. That “Miranda rights” were not in use in the miliary justice
>> system prior to the Miranda decision; How can there be Miranda before Miranda ?

>>10. That the jury system is considered a basic human right by the
>> United Nations . . . .. .
>>11. That Israel has a written constitution;

>>12. That CO2 gas cannot be an acid; Co2 can not be an acid. Check any chemisty book. Co2 is not an acid.

>>13. That burning of coke is a commercial source of HCN;

>>14. That the Nazi boycott of Jewish stores in April 1933 lasted
>> only one day. . . .Considering the talmud and the decleration of war on germany by the Jewish congress,it should have lasted 1000 years.
>>

>15. That Ca3(PO4)2 burns.

>>16. That burning atmospheric nitrogen produces HCN.
>>17. That human beings are only (.18)(.10) = 1.8% fat.
>>18. That combustion of the human body is not exothermic.
>>19. That atmospheric CO2 saturates water so that it cannot
>> dissolve more CO2 if the partial pressure increase.
>>20. That the calcium in bones burns.
>>21. That Mr. McFee is Marduk.
>>22. That Mueller was not head of the Gestapo.
>>
>>
>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>>e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
>>with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>>and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>>
>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>>
>>
>>–
>>Gord McFee
>>
>>
>>
>>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>>– MR/2 2.26 #331
>>
>>

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:14 PDT 1996
Article: 44899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:57:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 12:59:31 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## The witness who allegedly said that all the population of
>## the Lodz Ghetto were gassed in one night – Dr. Bendel –
>## apparently didn’t say this. I looked in his testimony and
>## I can’t fine this claim.
>
># On what basis do you choose one over the other?

>I’ll explain it again.

No you won’t.

Forgot I was dealing with a mentally
>retarded person here.

As expected, a personal attack without substantive response.

>The paragraph you posted refers – allegedly – to the testimony
>of Dr. Bendel. But it only mentions it, it doesn’t quote from
>it. I have the testimony itself, as it appears in “The Belsen
>Trial”, and he doesn’t say what your article quoted him as
>saying. It looks like the Nazi who sent you this article lied
>about its content.

You have a derivative source not the trial transcript. Whatever you
have depends upon the integrity of the author of the book to have
truthfully reported what was said.

># There is ZERO sign of any burning in any of those pictures.
># But you know that.

>I refer again to the photographs of people burned alive by
>the Nazis in other camps:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
>
>(if this one fails, try
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/ )
>
>Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg
>Gardelegen2.jpg Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

># This is a fine collection.

>I am not surprised that Giwer enjoys such pictures.

There is no evidence of anyone in the pictures having been burned much
less while alive. But you know that. You are so fucking gullible you
believe someone else’s caption without evaluating the pictures.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

># This is the third or fourth time I have posted this review of the
># garbage you are claiming is evidence of people being burned alive.

>And I’ll post it many more times.

>Everyone can look them himself and decide what they show.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44901 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Jahrling document
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:07:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On 18 Jun 1996 02:54:37 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>wrote:

>>The preferate document of D. Keren is the Jahrling document, something
>>allegedly written by a SS name Jahrling who claimed that the crematoria
>>capacities in Auscwitz-Birkenau was 4,756 corpses in 24 hours of operations
>>(28 june, 1943). I’ve already give some reasons why I thought it was a
>>forgery. Since I had an opportunity to take a look at A.T.O. again recently,
>>I was able to make some interesting comparisons:

>>On pages 223-224, 2 letters from Jahrling about coke consumption are
>>reproduces: (documents 32 et 33). The references given are:
>> P.M. BW/3034 page 68
>> P.M BW 30/34 P54
>>When I compared those 2 signatures, they were identical for those
>>2 genuine documents, but totally different from the signature that appear
>>on the famous document that claim 4,756 corpses a day!

>You are aware, of course, that the German inscription beside the
>signature–Fuer die Richtig[…] der Abschrift–translates as roughly
>”Certified true copy.”

>But since you find this document so incovenient, no doubt it is a
>forgery.

But then the credibility depends upon the person making the
certification. In the US at least such a certification requires an oath
before a notary which is absent.

And then the originals never seem to show up.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!inquo!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a subject
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:14:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> “Darkness Cannot Drive Out Darkness; . Only
>> >> Light Can Do That. . Hate Cannot Drive
>> >> Out Hate; . Only Love Can
>> >> Do That.” . Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>
>> >”Quotes taken from prominent people cannot obscure
>> >the fact that the person doing the quoting is a
>> >rude, obnoxious troll who has done nothing except
>> >act like an idiotic twit.” – Me
>>
>> I thought it might be good for those who can not forgive their enemies
>> or who follow the advice of Elie Wiesel to preserve hate for Germans.

>Heck! Who needs to hate Germans when there’s the Giwer-Troll?

Hate? Really? It is interesting that refusing to believe as you
believe inspires hatred in you. That speaks volumes about holohuggers.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44904 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:36:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] () wrote:

>Wait a minute–I thought Hitler was supposed to be a commie.
>Now you’ve got me all confuzled.

Marxist of the Nazi variety not of hte communist variety.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:17 PDT 1996
Article: 44905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:42:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Ron wrote:

>[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…
>>
>> [Lary Myles ([email protected]) wrote:
>> [Well, from strictly a marketing slant on it all…McVay is simply an
>> [underfunded amateur. When I asked some of the Jewish Mafia about his nibs,
>> [all that I got was head-shakes. He’s considered an embarrasment.
>>
>> ..Wow! You know Meyer Lansky?
>>
>> ..I thought he was dead…
>>
>> ..Bill
>>
>>The revisionists will deny that.
>>
>No,we don’t deny the death of Meyer Lansky, wen deny Zoinist-communist
>propaganda. It’s the Jews who do the denying. They deny the contents of
>the Talmud.

Meyer Lansky, Bernard “Bugsy” Siegel, none of them ever existed.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:18 PDT 1996
Article: 44906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.up.net!news.mtu.edu!msunews!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:39:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33424 can.politics:53364 talk.politics.misc:394277 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1503 alt.revisionism:44906 alt.censorship:86030 comp.org.eff.talk:66391 can.general:80748

Ron wrote:

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: What a clever way to kill people
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT
>>
>>
>>”PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
>>in the wall,
>>approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
>>the back of his head
>>against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
>>practice this arrangement did not
>>prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner.

> As an ex Mairne Sniper I find this hard to believe. The German Military
>of that time was one of the best in the world. Their snipers were
>fantastic. Much of what modern armies,including the Israeli, take from
>them.

I am certain it will turn out to be just a “minor” translation problem.
That appears to be the latest dodge.

> After 8
>>days a new arrangement
>>was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
>>plate was then slowly
>>lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
>>being measured for
>>height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
>>poleaxed the prisoner with
>>a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
>>operated by a foot lever in
>>a corner of the room. ”
>>IMT VII – p. 377.

But don’t you like this clever method? And there it is right in the
official record as an accusation.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:49:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 3:51:45 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Dan Keren wrote:

>>Show me your evidence that there are traces on the *outside*
>>walls. I have a feeling you’re confusing this gas chamber with
>>some delousing chambers that indeed have traces on the outside walls.

>This is a given. There have even been discussions here about the
>significance. No one questioned the existence of what is present in
>pictures and reports. Why do you quibble about such an obvious matter?
>Or is quibbling the aim?

The objective of holohuggers is the rigid control of what other people
believe about the private jewish holocaust.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:23:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:10897 alt.revisionism:44908

Phil Edwards wrote:

>Craig J Neumeier wrote:
>>
>> 1) Suppose the revisionists were right; everything looks exactly as it
>> does today, but in fact the Holocaust never happened. What are the
>> implications? Robert Anton Wilson said it best:
>> “I merely observe that a conspiracy that can deceive us
>> about 6,000,000 deaths can deceive us about *anything*,
>> and it takes a great leap of faith for Holocaust
>> revisionists to believe WWII happened at all, or that
>> Franklin Roosevelt did serve as President from 1933 to
>> 1945, or that Marilyn Monroe was more “real” than King
>> Kong or Donald Duck.”
>> I think this is rationally undeniable.

>Let’s take this one stage further.

>Assume for a second that the existing historical record _was_ compatible
>with there not having been a Holocaust. (Sounds deeply suspect, I know,
>but bear with me). Then ask, what would be different if there had been?

>Would there be physical evidence that nobody, not even those who wished
>to argue that the Holocaust had happened, could deny? Probably not: the
>Nazis would have destroyed all or (being humanly fallible) most of it,
>and what remained could easily be “reinterpreted” for anyone sick enough
>to want to (“gas chambers are physically impossible”/”it’s possible but
>not in that room”/”it could have been done in that room but it
>wasn’t”/”it’s an obvious fake”).

>Would there be documentary evidence that nobody (etc…)? Almost
>certainly not: not only would many documents have been destroyed, there
>are endless “arguments” that can be deployed against documents. (“It
>doesn’t mean what it seems to”/”it contradicts other documents”/”it’s an
>obvious forgery”/”you can’t believe anything from Communist sources”).

>Would there be eyewitness evidence that, etc? Definitely not (“his
>evidence contradicts X’s evidence, so he must be lying”/”he’s wrong about
>when Auschwitz was liberated, so he must be lying about the rest of
>it”/”he’s a Zionist, so he must be lying”)

In other words what you are saying is that whether or not there was a
holocaust, history would not change.

>All this, as I say, in the “alternative” time line in which the Holocaust
>_did_ happen… that is, in OTL. In short, the revisionists make one
>fundamental error: they think that picking holes in the detail of the
>accepted historical picture is tantamount to undermining it as a whole.
>It’s not that easy: even if you could prove the most outrageous of the
>revisionists’ claims (that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, say)
>it would only be an interesting footnote in history. The slaughter of 6
>million Jews (and half a million Gypsies and an unknown number of
>”Aryans” judged “unfit”) would still be a historical fact.

Save that the deaths would be attributable to camp conditions but would
still be in the same range.

>What the revisionists are really trying to do is to replace the entire
>historical record with one dominated by a vast international Jewish
>conspiracy (Faurisson: the gas chambers are a “Zionist lie”). But that’s
>not history – it’s contemptible, paranoid, anti-semitic garbage.

It is difficult to see how a difference of opinion on history can in any
manner be described as you are doing.

Would it not be illustrative to go back 100 years and note than anyone
saying Andersonville Prison was not a death camp is an anti-unionist
rebel?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:19:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:21:43 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>>Yes, where are the REAL historians, you know, the ones who CARE.
>>
>> They would not be caught dead here.
>>
>> Rather the quotes writings of mainly non-historians who selectively
>>quote to leave out the undesirable parts and the huggers read it as
>>though it is a true copy of what what was said and happened.

>I don’t think that you are in any position to estimate who is a real historian
>is and who not. And by the way, since you seem to be informed that
>the quotations given by those who follow reason are manipulated,
>could you please give four or five major titles on holocaust-research?
>I mean history-books, do you know any? Any important authors?

I would rather do it this way.

Non-historians

Hilberg, Pressac, Wiesenthal, Wiesel

Non-historical books

theirs

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:21 PDT 1996
Article: 44910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:22:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 3:24:38 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## I think most people would agree that, on the average, the
>## testimony of a 14-year-old is more accurate that that of an
>## 11-year-old, although somewhat less accurate, on the average,
>## than the testimony of an adult.
>
># Then you believe in the geysers of blood story. You are
># very gullible.

>It takes a mentally retarded person like Giwer to conclude from
>my paragraph above that I “believe in the geysers of blood story”.

>There is no logical way in which the paragraph I wrote above
>supports that I “believe in the geysers of blood story”.

How old was Elie Wiesel when he saw those geysers of blood?

>It is not even clear what this mental retard is trying to say.
>Perhaps he’s trying to say that I believe the testimony of
>each and every adult person, regarding each and every event? I
>don’t, and my paragraph above does not imply that I do.

I would not argue that Elie Wiesel is a mentard retard but I find no
way to exclude those who believe he is an honest reporter from the same
category.

>It takes a mentally retarded person like Giwer to conclude from
>me statement that, on the average, testimonies by adults are
>more accurate than testimonies by children, that I believe
>each and every testimony by each and every adult about each
>and every event.

>But he’s mentally retarded. What can I do. It’s not my fault.

>Does Giwer believe that people in Dresden turned into “fine
>gray ash” although the fire didn’t even touch them? Or that
>they “melted” into “puddles of human flesh, 4 foot deep”?

Show me where such statements were used as evidence by the prosecution
in trials that carried the death sentence. You can’t?

But of course there is a difference. There was and still is physical
evidence of Dresden. There is none for your gassing fantasies.

>I guess not. But, are there other testimonies he believes in?
>I guess he does.

>Regarding the “geysers of blood story”: I believe a much more
>accurate description is given in

>Quoted from Reitlinger’s “The Final Solution”:

> In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs,
> was driving with Blobel towards a country villa outside Kiev used by
> Major-General Thomas, the Security Police Commander.* At the Babi
> Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions which threw up columns of
> earth. It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of
> bodies, and Blobel explained: ‘Here my Jews are buried.’

>

And just who took notes of the statements and where are they on record
to support this statement? In the mind of the author of course.

But of course since it is toned down a bit you will believe it. One has
to wonder why there are no reports of such things from Mt. Trashmore.

There is no other reason for you to believe one over the other.

You are even willing to believe those picture show signs of burning.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:48:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 3:50:29 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer)
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Show me your evidence that there are traces on the *outside*
>## walls. I have a feeling you’re confusing this gas chamber with
>## some delousing chambers that indeed have traces on the outside walls.

># You suddenly have a change of heart. If you had a problem with that
># you would have challenged the holohuggers a few months ago when they
># offered their own explanation for why it was on the outside walls
># of gas chambers.

>Sorry, nazi-boy, you’re not going to get away with this one.

>It is true that there are cyanide traces on the outside walls of
>some of the delousing chambers. But you spoke specifically of the
>gas chamber of Krema I, which was a homicidal gas chamber.

I was refering to Madjdanik (sp?). I would never try to make a case
based upon a reconstruction that is based upon an artist’s conception of
what it might have looked like. If that is the best you have got, you
have got nothing.

>You can’t run away from this. Either provide evidence that it has
>cyanide traces on its outside walls, or admit you lied.

Now that you know what I am talking about, you can try again.

>## First, let us see if there are indeed any traces on the outside.
>## Source, please?

># Your fellow holohuggers a few months ago.

>No do, nazi-boy. This was with regard to the delousing chambers,
>not the Krema I gas chamber.

>Provide evidence it has cyanide traces on its outside walls or admit
>you lied.

I would never lend any credence whatsoever to your Krema I fantasy.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44929 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:06:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:08:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>I come to the conclusion that Mr. Giwer has given up every attempt of defending
>his opinions which have sufficiently been proven false. Now he retreats to
>the written equivalent of screaming out his opinion a last time and banging
>the door.

Your conclusions carry no weight save to you and to your fellow
holohuggers. But you know that.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is seeing things
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:00:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:02:41 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Gord McFee wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
>>P. Stein) said:
>>
>>
>>> I have searched DejaNews for such a claim. I looked for both “search
>>>engine” and “regex.” These searches cannot find any post from Hilary
>>>Ostrov which make any claim that:
>>
>>> a) Regex is a search engine
>>> b) Nizkor has a search engine
>>
>>That’s because there are no such statements. The Giwer-troll has told
>>another whopper.

> He’s just an unreliable eyewitness. 🙂

>>>In fact, I cannot find either claim made by _anyone_, not just Hilary
>>>Ostrov. The closest thing I can find is a post by Gordon McFee asking if
>>>Mr. Giwer knows about search engines – but that is not equivalent to
>>>either claim above. But once that question was asked, Mr. Giwer started
>>>insinuating that such a claim had been made. Others are encouraged to
>>>confirm my results for themselves.
>>
>>You are correct. The funny thing about this is that the Giwer-troll could
>>simply use a search engine (Alta Vista being an example), and find almost
>>anything he wants.

> Actually, that is not correct – have you actually tried to use
>Altavista to find something on Nizkor? It will get the FAQs, but most of
>the Nizkor archives are still the plain text files from the old email
>request system (does anyone remember oneb.almanac.bc.ca?) which preceded
>Nizkor. Those files are accessed through the CGI, and AltaVista doesn’t
>index those. I believe this situation will be corrected in the near
>future.

> However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
>content. When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
>Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
>case-insensitive search on “Ruden” and “enko” (to catch any line breaks in
>the middle of the word). No file which turned up in that search matched
>Giwer’s description of what he had read.

You have a real shit search routine. In fact it is there in two places
that I know of. Why can’t you find it?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:24 PDT 1996
Article: 44934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange email from Greenie
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:11:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 517
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:13:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

The first email.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:45:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard James Green
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Net abuse confession: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% /
18.3%

In article <[email protected]> you write:
>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.
>
>>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>>and his success in monopolizing discussion.
>
>>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:
>
>> Total number of articles posted: 1832
>> Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
>> Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)
>
>> Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2
>
>>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.
>
>> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
>> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM
>
>
>
>>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.
>
>>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>
>>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile
>
>>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>
>>The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
>>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/
>
>>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html
>
>>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>>http://www.cm.org/
>
>>alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
>>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html
>
>>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>>Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>>them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
>>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl
>
> What an idiot.
>
> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
>
> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>
> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>doing and am going to do.
>
> To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
>the NG back on track.
>
> You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
>and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>
> Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
>away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.
>
> Alec will verify that one if he remembers.
>
> So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
>simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
>aggrandizing in that manner.
>
> But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
>name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
>freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.
>
> It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.
>
>
>
>

My response.

If you will look at the headers you will see that I am replying
to what you sent me. Or are you going to claim that someone else sent
it?

At 12:56 PM 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 11:45 AM 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]> you write:
>>>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>>>>>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>>>>>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>>>>>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>>>>>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>>>>>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.
>>>>
>>>>>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>>>>>and his success in monopolizing discussion.
>>>>
>>>>>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:
>>>>
>>>>> Total number of articles posted: 1832
>>>>> Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
>>>>> Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)
>>>>
>>>>> Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>>>>>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2
>>>>
>>>>>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>>>>>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>>>>>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>>>>>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.
>>>>
>>>>> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>>>>> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>>>>>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>>>>>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>>>>>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>>>>>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.
>>>>
>>>>>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>>>>
>>>>>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile
>>>>
>>>>>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>>>>
>>>>>The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
>>>>>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/
>>>>
>>>>>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>>>>>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html
>>>>
>>>>>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>>>>>http://www.cm.org/
>>>>
>>>>>alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
>>>>>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>>>>>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html
>>>>
>>>>>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>>>>>Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>>>>>them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
>>>>>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>>>>>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl
>>>>
>>>> What an idiot.
>>>>
>>>> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
>>>>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
>>>>
>>>> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>>
>>>> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
>>>>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>>
>>>> To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
>>>>the NG back on track.
>>>>
>>>> You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
>>>>and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>>>>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
>>>>away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
>>>>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.
>>>>
>>>> Alec will verify that one if he remembers.
>>>>
>>>> So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
>>>>simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>>>>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>>>>answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
>>>>aggrandizing in that manner.
>>>>
>>>> But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
>>>>name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
>>>>freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.
>>>>
>>>> It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>> Was there a point to this?
>>—————————————————————
>> Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.
>
>> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>> Commentary from the right side of the curve
>>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
>> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
>> http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)
>>http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)
>
>Mr. Giwer,
>
>I have asked you not to send me private mail.
>Your mail is being returned to you unread.
>At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
>choose to do so in the future.
>
>Rich Green
>
>Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
>he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
>all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
>seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
>please refer to
>
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>
> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
> implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
> (Translation into English not yet available.)
>—————————————————————————-
>Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
>[email protected] Stanford University
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
> “Remember the days of yore,
> “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
> -Deuteronomy 32:7
>
>
>

His response.

Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:56:43 -0700
From: “Richard J. Green”
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Net abuse confession: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7%
/ 18.3%
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
X-from: Rich Green
Precedence: junk

>At 11:45 AM 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]> you write:
>>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
>>>>proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
>>>>until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
>>>>with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
>>>>and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
>>>>that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.
>>>
>>>>This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
>>>>and his success in monopolizing discussion.
>>>
>>>>Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:
>>>
>>>> Total number of articles posted: 1832
>>>> Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
>>>> Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)
>>>
>>>> Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
>>>>Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2
>>>
>>>>Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
>>>>mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
>>>>from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
>>>>string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.
>>>
>>>> Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
>>>> Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
>>>>However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
>>>>malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
>>>>activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
>>>>All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.
>>>
>>>>NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
>>>
>>>>To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile
>>>
>>>>For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>>>
>>>>The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
>>>>http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/
>>>
>>>>The Net Abuse FAQ:
>>>>http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html
>>>
>>>>The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
>>>>http://www.cm.org/
>>>
>>>>alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
>>>>http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
>>>>http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html
>>>
>>>>The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
>>>>Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
>>>>them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
>>>>Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
>>>>In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl
>>>
>>> What an idiot.
>>>
>>> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
>>>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
>>>
>>> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>>>
>>> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
>>>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>>doing and am going to do.
>>>
>>> To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
>>>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
>>>the NG back on track.
>>>
>>> You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
>>>and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>>>
>>> Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>>>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
>>>away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
>>>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.
>>>
>>> Alec will verify that one if he remembers.
>>>
>>> So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
>>>simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>>>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>>>answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
>>>aggrandizing in that manner.
>>>
>>> But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
>>>name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
>>>freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.
>>>
>>> It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

> Was there a point to this?
>—————————————————————
> Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
> Commentary from the right side of the curve
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
> http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)
>http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)

Mr. Giwer,

I have asked you not to send me private mail.
Your mail is being returned to you unread.
At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
choose to do so in the future.

Rich Green

Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
please refer to

URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

“Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
(Translation into English not yet available.)
—————————————————————————-
Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
[email protected] Stanford University
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
“Remember the days of yore,
“Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
-Deuteronomy 32:7

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:25 PDT 1996
Article: 44936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:53:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:55:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

># Ah, statistics!
>#
># It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number
># of incidents of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same
># archival quotes, and how many of these produced no thread, not even
># one response.

>I never posted dozens of copies of the same article in the same day,
>as Giwer did and continues to do. I never replied to numerous
>articles on the same day, simply by quoting them and appending
>the same article over and over again, dozens of times.

I use the articles as sigs. Is that a crime now? Note that most of
them are shorter than the mantra you folks delight in using.

I further note that messages whose sole content is an attack on me will
be responded to with attacks upon the credibilitity of your holocaust.
The manner in which I choose to attack is by appending the stories I am
using as sigs.

Now where were you when the mantra was being repeated a hundred times a
day? Where are you now when there are dozens of threads that consist
of nothing but attacks upon me?

And just what is it that you are objecting to really?

Don’t tell me. I know. I do not believe as you do.

># Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
># material over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
># consciousness by default. (Graber made me do it!!)

>It is typical of “revisionists” to confuse third-rate “cynicism”
>for intelligence. You’re no exception. BTW, it’s Grabner, not Graber,
>which may prove that for small minds all the repetition in the
>world is not enough.

Someone must be making you do it. To do so on your own would mean you
have to believe it is contributing something to the discussion.

>-Danny Keren.

Now you see, here is an example of an attack.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

And my response is

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

See how it goes?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:26 PDT 1996
Article: 44937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:55:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:57:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Don’t thank me! I know you’re full of shit. And further more, butt out
>of my conversations with others.
>Chuck

>[email protected] wrote:

>> And thank the rest of you folks for a demonstration of obfuscation.

Well ranted.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 19:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 44938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lets get this straight God I hope so!
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:56:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:58:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Oh Shit!!! He’s into the cheap wine again. It’ll kill him but that’s
>O.K. too…(I guess)

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
>> me in any manner.

>Or that mentions anything in any manner, especially if it’s in any
>manner, that the manner is mentioned!
>>
>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.

>Especially the in any manner, matter. It’s a matter of manner. Or a
>manner of matter.
>>
>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>> conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>> will get down to cases on my terms.

>Control is a matter of manner, as is terms, only terms is a manner of
>matter.
>>
>> There is nothing in between.

>Your ears, you mean! Right? Or is it your legs? Doesn’t really matter,
>since it’s always been a manner of matter.
>>
>> I hope you folks come to understand this.

>Of course, and it’s profoundly disturbing. But again it’s the manner.
>Didja ever try taking a flying f–k at a rollin’ doughnut?
>Chuckles ( the saviour of most of Europe) Then how come they took my
>Good Conduct Medal [email protected] wrote:
>>

Gee, Mr. War Hero, What didn’t you do during the war?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 20:48:36 PDT 1996
Article: 44942 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:27:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 3:29:40 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>[…]
>> I would expect an intelligent person such as yourself can find a way.
>>First off, learn that an intelligent conversation does not consist of
>>name calling or reciting the mantra. And while you are at it, why don’t
>>you have a word with McFee who lately has been posting for no reason
>>other than to post the mantra.
>[…]
>> Let me see if I have this straight. Holohuggers posting their mantra
>>and often nothing but the mantra is not spamming but pointing out the
>>nonsense is spamming. Can you explain the differenec?
>[…]
>> Realize that these folks have become bankrupt in the face of the
>>complete basis for their beliefs.

>[Giwer wrote:]
>> Historian? This is a political opinion piece for god’s sake.
>> This is the link.
>> This is a world of opinions, my opinions!
>> This is what you read when you get there.
>> None of my opinions are humble.
>> The only opinions worth having
>> Do you understand now?

>[and]

>> It is not journalistic. It is an opinion piece.

>I understand perfectly, Mr. Giwer. Your opinions are loud-mouthed and
>certainly not worth having (Was für ein Ansinnen!) Apart from that,
>you clearly say, that your writings neither meet the standard of
>historical nor of journalistic writings, that means that they are
>not to be considered with rational thought and not to be confronted
>with evidence. It is clear beyond any doubt that you yourself consider
>your writings as entirely subjective, that means emotional. Since I
>was clearly not referring to the essays of your web-page but to your reply
>against my criticism, this must also be said of your contributions
>to this news-group. You admit that you are neither historian nor
>journalist and that all of your claims just ground on your
>subjective feelings.

None of the holohuggers are journalists or historians. Their major
darlings such as Wiesenthal, Pressac and Hilberg are not historians or
journalists.

Therefore it is unclear how you can hold there is something special
about me and my writings here.

You are clearly only giving you opinion on this subject. How are you
different from me?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 20:48:37 PDT 1996
Article: 44947 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.revisionism,alt.cyberspace,alt.cyberpunk,alt.gothic,alt.culture.usenet,alt.cyberpunk.movement,alt.flame,alt.angst,alt.fan.karl
Subject: Re: US and Peacekeeping: Saviours of the World?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:52:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected].austin.ibm.com> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles) wrote:

>>
>>But a fact remains: America provided world leadership and protected the ideals
>>of freedom for the past 100 years. Since the turn of the 19th century it has been
>>the policy of this country to defend democracy all over the globe, and it has been
>>carried out since the 1900’s. If it were not for America, the world would be a
>>vastly different place. Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, or some other country that
>>did not have a chance to sieze the power as the other two may very well OWN you
>>today.

>Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia:

>It would have been great if the US had entered WWII BEFORE 1942, when
>the rest of us (Canada, G.B., etc.) were trying to stop the Nazi tide.
>However, Staters had to wait til they’d allowed their own base in Pearl
>Harbour to be destroyed before they would join the war. Thanks, anyway.

>As far as “defending democracy” around the world, it seems that only
>happens when it suits the US and when they get to “blow things up”.
>Canada, with its two peashooters and rowboat has been stretching itself
>to the limit trying to contain civil wars in Rwanda, former Yugoslavia,
>Cypress, Cambodia, etc. while Staters, with a (how much is it?) $1
>TRILLION dollar military budget

More like $360 billion. The Canadian budget should be $36B to be
proportionate. But then, you folks never did care to support your
military.

sits back and refuses to be involved in
>”peacekeeping”, not “peacemaking”, missions. We sure could use your
>help…the rowboat is starting to spring leaks…

Canadians get their rocks off being UN cannon fodder. It is about the
only way they can train their military as Canadians won’t pay for it.

Consider it a form of atonement for fifty years of hiding under the US
nuclear umbrella and short changing their military. Instead they
self-indulgently squandered the money on their social welfare system.
It is about time you folks paid for something.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 20:48:38 PDT 1996
Article: 44948 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:53:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:55:05 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Ah, Dvdthomas, or agathist, or whatever you call yourself nowadays,
>maybe this time you’ll read the following?

>Testimony of Mr. Harold Le Druillence from Jersey, former prisoner
>in Belsen, who was “employed” as corpse carrier there:

Another eyewitness heard from. What date was this? Towards the end
perhaps?

>(p. 60-61)

>We made our way along the central road towards the burial pit. Along
>this road, stationed at intervals, were orderlies to see that the
>flow of dead to the pits carried on smoothly; they were particulalry
>numerous near the kitchen and the resevoir water. One of the most
>cruel things in this particular work was the fact that we passed
>this water regularly on every trip, and although we were dying
>of thirst we were not allowed to touch it or get anywhere near.

Why? Evil Nazis, evil Nazis of course, there can be no other
explanation. Water can not have been either rationed or contaminated.
It has to be pure Nazi evil.

>[…]

>I would like you to picture what this endless chain of dead going
>to the pits must have looked like for about five days from sunrise
>to sunset. How many were buried I have no idea. It must have been
>vast numbers – certainly five figures.

>You didn’t dare to fall out, but many collapsed on the way – just
>lay dead by the roadside, or died. They in turn were lifted by a
>team of four and taken to the pits. People died like flies on the
>way to these pits. They did not have the necessary energy to drag
>even those very light bodies. A man who faltered was usually hit
>on the head.

Sure sounds like the end days to me. But then that is a forbidden
explanation. It has to all be due to Nazi evil.

>(p. 62)

>I saw plenty of shooting, usually for no reason at all. Sometimes
>there was a hidden reason which we learned of only after many
>dozen had been killed; for example, at the north entrance of
>the mortuary yard many people had been killed before we realized
>that the particular guard in charge of that gateway wanted to
>see people go through at the double dragging the dead body
>behind. He was a member of the Hungarian guard [1], but the
>shooting was not confined to Hungarians; it was simply terrible,
>hundreds were shot per day.

And what happened to this one guard as a result of his doing this?

>Testimony of SS-doctor, Obersturmfuherer Fritz Klein (p. 717):
>————————————————————
>Whilst at Belsen I made several complaints to Kommandant Kramer
>about the conditions there. I was told that I was only a doctor
>and that it was nothing to do with me. Three days before the
>British came, when I took over the camp, I had a talk with
>Kramer about the conditions. I told Kramer that the corpses
>should be removed, and that water should be supplied to
>prisoners as many were dying from thirst. Kramer said he did
>not take orders from me.

But we know that Kramer had tried to get water restored and to get the
British to take over the camp because they had made it impossible to get
food and water.

And the other surprise, the doctor was innocent also.

>Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
>———————————————————————
>The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
>that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
>Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
>Kramer’s second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who
>worked in Kramer’s office and was responsible for food supply.
>I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
>other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
>increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, “let them die, why
>should you care?”.

>

What a surprise to read that the people in charge of the camp were
believed responsible for camp conditions. But of course, Herta Ehlert
had no part of it. He was trying to help.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]etcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 20:48:39 PDT 1996
Article: 44951 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!xara.net!agate.xara.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:02:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>>In article ,
>>>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>>>> I am sure that anyone who cares to look through the search services can
>>>>> find one or more posts by Mr. McVay on this subject wherein he makes
>>>>> clear and gleeful reference to his pleasure at the idea of Zundel being
>>>>> deported. One of them may still be in the current postings. Sorry,
>>>>> don’t recall the thread.

>>>>Ken McVay, of course, can speak for himself.

>>>Yes, I can. An agency of the Canadian government has stated,
>>>without reservation, that one Ernst Zundel is a threat to the
>>>security of Canada.

>> Rwanda is a threat to the security of Canada.

>Really? How is Rwanda a threat to the security of Canada?

They are more powerful than Zundel.

>> The only thing I can see he is a threat to is the censorship happy
>>faction in Canada.

>Huh?

>> But perhaps you could explain.

>You first.

Done.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 20:48:39 PDT 1996
Article: 44952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Appears to be a hard problem here
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:13:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> So lets start off with an easier part.

>>Would anyone like to explain why expert exterminators were used instead of normal camp personnel?

>What? When? Who? Where? Quotations?

Thank you. I was beginning to think no one was going to bite on this
one.

It comes from Nizkor of course. Have you never read their official FAQ
on the subject?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to get a desired confession
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:49:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> And holohuggers could produce only personal attacks when I talked
>about
>> 1940s interrogation methods.

> A lie, of course. The results of several careful investigations were
>printed. None demonstrated any physical abuse.

You must be very young.

>> (TESTIMONY OF KICK, microfilm pages 000145-9).
>> A: I was here in Dachau from the 6th to the 15th of May, under arrest;
>> during this time I was beaten all during the day and night… kicked…
>> I had to stand to attention for hours; I had to kneel down on sharp
>> objects or square objects; I had to stand under the lamp for hours and
>> look into the light, at which time I was also beaten and kicked; as a
>> result of this treatment my arm was paralysed for about 8 to 10 weeks;
>> only beginning with my transfer to Augsberg, this treatment stopped.

> A medical report contradicted this testimony.

Please post it.

>> Q: What were you beaten with?
>>
>> A: With all kinds of objects.
>>
>> Q: Describe them, please.
>>
>> A: With whips, with lashing whips, with rifle butts, pistol butts, and
>> pistol barrels, and with hands and fists.

> None of which even bruised the “victim.”

That is why the rubber hose was preferred in the US. But then he was
not examined immediately after.

>> A: I was beaten by an interrogation officer. Several prisoners were also
>> present. I was supposed to tell how many people I shot or hanged. I can
>> say with a conscience that I never killed a person. Thereupon, I was
>> beaten over the head with sticks and rubber hoses until I broke down.

> Medical examination contradicted this witness. All investigating bodies
>concluded that he was lying.

Of course. On what date was he examined? Please post the quotation.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 44969 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘They don’t call Auschwitz the extermination camp for nothing!’
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:42:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:44:13 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># Daniel Keren write:

>## Notes From Diary of SS-Doctor Kremer, While in Auschwitz
>## [‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>## Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 256-268]

>## 12 October 1942
>##
>## Second inoculation against typhus, later on in the evening severe
>## generalized reaction (fever). Despite this in the night attended a
>## further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons). Ghastly scenes in
>## front of the last bunker! That was the 10th Sonderaktion.

># Innnoculations of people meant to die? How strange.

>Mental retardation alert: the mentally retarded Matt Giwer failed
>to understand that it was Dr. Kremer who was inoculated against
>typhus, not the victims.

>It’s becoming worse by the day. His IQ is down from the famous
>163 figure to 40 or so. And it’s dropping fast.

Two of you holohuggers have admitted I have control of control of this
conference and have gotten it back on topic. Obviously stupid little me
could not do a thing like that.

># You are an idiot. You read like an idiot. You have no idea
># whatsoever what happened.

>You are mentally retarded. It’s becoming clear why you retired at
>the age of 46. Obnoxious mental retards have problems finding a job.

Calm down. We know holohuggers have nothing whatever factual to offer
on this subject. We know they only intend to heap abuse upon those who
do not believe as the holohuggers want them to believe.

Totalitarian thought control it is usually called. Or perhaps you will
say it is acceptable to believe differently but not to speak it.

What is it that makes you think your beliefs are superior to those of
others?

What kind of rigid, totalitarian mindset leads you to believe the
beliefs of others should be controlled?

What kind of person would even attempt to do it?

But of course, you will deny that it is your intention. Rather your
intention is heap ridicule and verbal abuse and harrassement and fascist
“we are keeping a file on you” threats to silence those who speak what
they believe. And of course to make it illegal every place you can.

Fortunately you folks are not Americans.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 44970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: article by Carlo Mattogno [part 2]
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:37:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 10:39:21 PM CDT 1996
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Jeff wrote:

>3) The Contradiction of Pressac’s New Thesis:

>The Pressac thesis implies another contradiction; and a more striking
>one: If, in fact, all work-disabled Hungarian Jews were homicidally
>gassed, and if it is true that work-restricted Hungarian Jews amounted to
>two-thirds of the total deportees, then approximately 292,000 were
>homicidally gassed. But if they homicidally gassed 80,000 or 160,000
>work-disabled at Auschwitz, then just where were the remaining 212,000 or
>132,000 work-impaired Hungarian Jews, homicidally gassed? Or putting it
>in another way, if 212,000 or 132,000 work-disabled Hungarian Jews who,
>according to Pressac, did not go through Auschwitz and were not
>homicidally gassed; then why would 80,000 or 160,000 work-disabled people
>have been deported to Auschwitz, and homicidally gassed?

I have noticed that arithmetic is anathema to those finding a holocaust
everywhere. An interesting point.

>5) Cremation Capacity at Birkenau

>According to Jean-Claude Pressac, at the end of May 1944, the
>exterminating capacity of the installations at Birkenau was as follows:
>Crematory II : only one possible gassing cycle per day
>1,000 per day

>Crematory III:
>1,000 per day

>Crematory V: two possible gassing cycles per day, as the three gas
>chamber block is ventilated, and the incineration takes place in pits -3-
>[three pits].
>1,000 to 2,000 per day

>Bunker 2: no ventilated gas chamber and incineration in a pit of 30
>square meters and in another [pit] of 20 square meters.
>300 per day

Actually I have found interesting to look at the proposed length and
width of these pits. One would expect that if one wanted to do pit
burning one would have it about six to eight feet wide at most. After
all, why make it wider unless you want to try practice for the Olympic
Dwarf Tossing game? And besides one has to, with reasonable accuracy,
be able to toss the gasoline or oil or alcohol or fat or whatever the
claim is onto the bodies.

>To Pressac’s argumentations, we counter with the following objections:

>a) The cremation capacity of 1,000 cadavers per day which Pressac
>attributes to each one of Crematories II and III, is technically
>unfounded. The maximum cremation capacity of these two plants was 360
>cadavers per day, each. (24)

These people determine the capacity by first deciding how many they want
burned and dividing by resources.

>b) Pressac’s affirmation concerning three “crematory pits” of 3.5 meters
>by 15 meters each, in the courtyard of Crematory V (not supported in any
>document) is in contrast with the declaration of Filip Mller, (25) the
>most important witness on these “cremation pits”, who mentions five
>”cremation pits” measuring 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters. (26) There are no
>traces

And you can see the pit dimentions problem here. A 25 foot wide pit is
is quite counter productive unless one can throw in bodies from both
sides, therefore one would dig it at a right angle to the gas chamber.
BUT that means for maximum usage the bodies have to be carried the full
50 meters. On the other hand if dug parallel to the exit door one only
has to walk 25 meters for maximum usage but then it is much wider than
necessary.

On the third hand, core sample showing disturbed earth should permit
these pits to be found with maybe a week’s searching at the most. The
layer that was the bottom of the pit would certainly contain conclusive
evidence.

>c) Granted, but not accepted, that such pits had really existed; and
>granted, but not accepted, that it is possible to accomplish a mass
>cremation in “cremation pits”, on what basis does Pressac declare that
>their maximum cremation capacity was 2,000 cadavers per day? The only
>possible basis would be Filip Mller’s declaration. But in this case,
>Pressac’s three “cremation pits” would have had a maximum cremation
>capacity of 525 cadavers per day. (27)

So far as I can see, open pit cremation would be limited only by the
amount of fuel. This would be far more than the BTU equivalent for a
real crematoria in that there is no way to retain the heat and most of
it rises from the tops of the bodies in the first place.

Thus, although the image of throwing a few gallons is popular, one would
expect to find nearby fuel storage depot of some sort for the quantity
that would be needed.

Rather I would expect to find the procedure to be filling the pit with
whatever the fuel to a depth of six or so inches with a single layer of
bodies before the match is thrown in. Or 12 inches and two layers, that
sort of thing.

>d) The Pressac contention concerning two “cremation pits” measuring 30
>and 20 square meters in Bunker 2 ground, not supported by any document,
>is in opposition to the declaration of the most important witness on
>these “cremation pits”, Miklos Nyiszli, who writes of two cremation pits
>measuring 50 meters by 6 meters. (28) Even in this case, Pressac has
>drastically reduced the area of the “cremation pits” from 600 square
>meters to 50 square meters.

Maybe he thought it through. That would something of a first on this
subject.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:26:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 11:28:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## I was referring to the claim about Bendel’s testimony, not
>## Peer’s. As for Peer, he was 11 years old when the camp was
>## liberated, and I cannot really expect an 11-year-old to give
>## an accurate testimony.
>
># But you would implicitely trust a 14 year old boy?

>I think most people would agree that, on the average, the
>testimony of a 14-year-old is more accurate that that of an
>11-year-old, although somewhat less accurate, on the average,
>than the testimony of an adult.

Then you believe in the geysers of blood story. You are very gullible.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:16:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-48.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 3:18:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] whines:

> The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers
> and a boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by
> means of pipes to the chambers. There are terracota floors in
> the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims
> had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
> afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first,
> were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak
> to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and
> kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed
> forward and stumbled over them. Small children were simply
> thrown inside. After being filled up to capacity the chambers
> were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
> all was over.

> IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

>It is good to see that Mr. Giwer can recognize and support
>the truth ocassionally.

>–
>Harry Katz

>Better eat onions all thy life than dine upon geese and chickens once
>and then long in vain for more ever after.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

What an asshole. You really believe this nonsense. Grow up and get a
life.

What an asshole.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 20 23:05:24 PDT 1996
Article: 44979 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:43:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:44:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Ah, statistics!

>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
>and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
>default. (Graber made me do it!!)

It is only “spamming” when others do it in “their” conference.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:02:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:04:09 PM CDT 1996
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>Gord McFee wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Matt Giwer) said:
>>
>> >
>> > Would someone care to explain to Van Alstine that the skeletons of
>> >diatoms are not made of silicon?

>Would Mr Giwer like to share with us what he thinks diatoms do use
>for their hard parts?

A silicon based life form. How interesting.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:06 PDT 1996
Article: 44994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:01:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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“Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Good sir, leave the technical knowledge to those who have it. You can
>>get my website (www2.combase.com/~mgiwer) as fast as you can get
>>cnn.com.

>And mine as well. If Kenny wants to be taken seriously as an internet
>resource, why does he not use a real ISP that has, like, a real net
>connection? I do.

Can’t master FTP?

>>Combase has a single T1 line. You can’t get any less than a
>>T1 line and call yourself an ISP.
>>
>> The best thing for them would be to be hosted on a decent ISP.

>But that would cost money, and ya know, those gas pumpers just don’t
>make that much!!! Especially tight-wad jewish proselytes!

>Rev. Ron

>http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel – one of the fastest sites around!

And according to the lastest post, they think a 486DX25 was expensive a
year ago.

What a bunch of newbies.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:07 PDT 1996
Article: 44997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.flame.revisionism
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:00:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:02:03 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…
>>
>> I have started posting here some considerations within the bounds
>of
>>what appears to be the NG.
>>
>> You will note that the flamers are following me.
>>
>> My apologies but I can not control those who insist upon others
>holding
>>the beliefs they insist upon.
>>

>Fuck off Giwer. It’s quite right that people like you who go round spouting
>shit should be followed around the public domain by others willing to point
>out what a fuck-up you are.

What kind of truth is it that needs defending?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:08 PDT 1996
Article: 45000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: interesting email
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:05:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:07:14 PM CDT 1996
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Return-Path:
Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id PAA24064; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vixa.voyager.net(198.109.136.2) by ixmail3 via smap
(V1.3)
id sma000923; Thu Jun 20 14:51:44 1996
Received: from clmx50.dial.voyager.net (clmx50.dial.voyager.net
[198.109.137.50]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.7.3/CICNet) with SMTP id
RAA29434; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:52:55 -0400
From: [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Organization: Absence Software

[email protected] wrote:

> I love a
> fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
> doing and am going to do.

So then why have you never come out and said “I am flooding this
newsgroup with crap”? Why do you beat around the bush?

Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
[email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

Because that is not what I am doing. I am dealing with your steaming
and electrocution crap.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:09 PDT 1996
Article: 45001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:27:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
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“Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> And according to the lastest post, they think a 486DX25 was expensive a
>>year ago.
>>
>> What a bunch of newbies.

>Whew boy, is it getting weird in here…expensive 486’s, lack of FTP skills,
>whoa, is it any wonder the Zinkor website is totally unaccesible to me and surely
>others…these guys don’t know a thing about computers. (Actually, I must admit:
>maybe it IS accessible to me, but I always cancel my request for info to the Zinkor
>site if it’s been more than two minutes and the page hasn’t been transferred. So
>far, within two minutes, I can SOMETIMES get the first few k of the homepage.

If you really want to look around put your browser in a second window
and have something time consuming to do in the first. I found a lovely
collection of things there.

And I forgot to remind you, they paid “over $1000” for UnixWorks instead
of $50 for Linux. Some one must have seen them coming.

>I’m sorry, but content aside, the technical aspects of the Zinkpr website are
>sorely lacking.

>I almost feel sorry for them with their computer ineptitude. But not quite.

Hell, if they paid real money instead of Canadian, I’d help them out.

I love a fair fight.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:10 PDT 1996
Article: 45002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:21:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:60651 alt.politics.usa.republican:219874 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:324955 alt.politics.perot:49390 alt.revisionism:45002

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> …it is not a secret the communist party in Germany had a
> number of Jews out of proportion to the population.

>What was the number of Jews in the German population and the number
>of Jews in the German Communist Party?

>If Mr. Giwer remains true to his past performances, he will not
>answer this question. Instead he will turn it around and ask me to
>provide numbers to disprove his unfounded and unsupported assertion.

>This is known as intellectual dishonesty, and Mr. Giwer wallows in it!

Really? I was unaware of that.

>So, to save time, I will add that this statistic is meaningless.
>Jews constitute about 3% of the population of the United States. Any
>organization with a Jewish membership of 3.1% has “a number of Jews out
>of proportion to the population.” Yet it is obvious that there are
>still not enough Jews in the organization to be a major influence on its
>program, and furthermore that the number of Jews in this organization is
>a miniscule portion of the entire Jewish population.

3% and growing. That last time this came up, there was a need to
“disprove” that Jews had any political influence so the number was 1%.

>–
>Harry Katz

>To have compassion on animals is one of the laws of Moses.
> — The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

Moses never existed. There were no commandments. Jews were not chosen.
They were self annoited.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:10 PDT 1996
Article: 45008 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: dem bones again
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 06:24:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 251
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 11:26:52 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:26:35 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:54:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>========
>>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>>Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
>>>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT
>>>>
>>>>1/17/85
>>>> Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a cross-examination
>>>>that took place the
>>>> day before, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust “expert” and author
>>>>Raul Hilberg admitted
>>>> under oath that after 36 years of studying the Holocaust, 1) he
>>>>knew of no documentary
>>>> (printed) evidence that the Nazis murdered or planned to murder
>>>>Jews in gas chambers, 2)
>>>> he had identified large parts of the key “confession” of Kurt
>>>>Gerstein as to the “gassings”
>>>> as “pure nonsense” and “totally false,” 3) when presenting the
>>>>Gerstein “confession” as
>>>> proof of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in
>>>>order to make his point,
>>>> 4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 5) he
>>>>billed himself as a
>>>> Holocaust expert for 18 years before even visiting Auschwitz (he
>>>>then spent only one day
>>>> there), 6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of
>>>>which he was alleged to be
>>>> the expert, and 7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew
>>>>had been gassed. (see
>>>> also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the Globe and
>>>>Mail, and the Sault Star of
>>>> 1/18/85.) Understandably, when called upon to testify again in a
>>>>later trial, Hilberg begged
>>>> off.
>>
>>>I assume that because you have posted this passage, you regard it to
>>>be true.
>>
>> It can be verified. Your same statement can be made about any
>>recounting of any newspaper article.
>>
>>Are you willing to discuss this intelligently, to stick to
>>>the topic, and to answer without name-calling or insults or more spam?
>>
>> Spam? Most lf these that I post have a lower word count than the
>>mantra. Would you not consider the mantra a spam? If not, why not?
>>How about McFee with the majority of his posts lately being solely to
>>recite the mantra? Do you not see a problem with that?
>>
>> If not why not?
>>
>>>There are several misprisions of fact in this quote, which is based
>>>entirely on reports from the gutter press, particularly the Toronto
>>>Sun, and not on the Zuendel trial records.
>>
>>>On point 3) in particular, Hilberg actually said something quite
>>>different about his use of the Gerstein confessions which can be
>>>verified by referring to his actual historiographical practise. Just
>>>from memory,–which I confess may be faulty–Hilberg actually said
>>>that Gerstein was unreliable in many instances but useful insofar as
>>>his statements could be verified from other sources. The
>>>characterization that he “editted out inconvenient sections” is unfair
>>>and does not reflect Hilberg’s practise.
>>
>> Frankly I do not see the difference.

>Frankly, I am not surprised. To say that Hilberg editted out the
>inconvenient portions suggests a dishonest procedure. What Hilberg did
>was to edit out the clearly fantastic and the unverifiable.

>> If all of the unverifiable parts of all the stories are eliminated, so
>>is the gassing and a lot more.

>This is simply circular logic.

It is consistency with your position as to what he did.

It is predicated in the first instance
>on a wrong-headed belief that gassing is unverifiable. You like to say
>so, but that does not make it true. I do not read all of your
>messages, but so far your arguments appear to me simply to be a strong
>dose of mockery. But mocking the evidence is not the same as refuting
>it or offering a coherent reinterpretation.

It is not verifiable unless one selectively ignores the “testimony” that
disagrees. Which is the basis for his exclusions. Gassing vanishes at
Treblinka if steaming, electrocution and vacuum chambers are considered.

He ignores Gersteins’ 25 million claim based upon the grounds that there
are other numbers. He should also ignore gassing based upon other
methods.

That would be consistent.

But what he is doing is selecting for the current acceptable version of
the myth.

>> If all of the numbers that do not agree with each other then all of the
>>numbers are eliminated.

>The low estimate for the death total at Dresden is 35,000, and I have
>seen death tolls well upwards of 200,000. Since none of those numbers
>agrees one with the other, I guess we can dispense with all claims
>that anyone died in the bombing of Dresden.

But for Dresden we have physical evidence. We have none for gassing.
Testimony is only support of evidence as you know.

>You say that the bombing of Dresden is supported by other evidence,
>yet you never present any.

As you know there are films of it. As you know when it was conquered
pictures were taken of it. As you know rebuilding what could be
salvaged was regularly in the news.

That is what is called physical evidence.

That is what is completely lacking from your holocaust stories.

Do you have autopsy reports that
>demonstrate that anyone died from a bomb impact or from being burnt
>alive? Do you have any photographs of the dead? Can I not say that
>they are miscaptioned if you do? Do you have any transport records of
>people fleeing to Dresden to escape the advancing Russians? And how do
>you explain the fantastic testimony of people glowing orange and
>suddenly disappearing or of people in sealed bunkers turning to a
>soft, undualting ash? How, indeed, does ash undulate?

>Going by your past performance, you will toss off a one-liner about
>how I am changing the subject. But I am arguing by analogy, and I
>think the analogy is valid because these are precisely the smae
>arguments and questions thrown up by revisionists.

Not in the least. I point out one more time that you folks are
completely lacking in physical evidence whereas there is plentiful
physical evidence of Dresden.

Rather that drop you off with a one-liner, I will take the opportunity
one more time to point out the deficiency in your position.

>> ALL of the individual recountings of ill treatment disappear unless
>>there are witnesses to corraborate their occurance.

>Well, in the main, the witnesses do corroborate each other.

Sorry but I have pointed out many times that only by ignoring the absurd
witnesses is it possible to make this claim.

>> Thus, even the way your phrase it, he is selectively removing things
>>ONLY from Gerstein.

>And how do you know that? Because one newspaper article covers the
>specific topic of the questions put to Hilberg about Gerstein. You
>know that you have not read Hilberg, so how do you know that Hilberg
>is selective with Gerstein only.

Yes. That he can still support gassings in the first place is more than
enough evidence of that. And if you can say that is not true it is only
because you will not accept the absurdities in your position that I have
posted.

>This is a silly objection anyway. Of course Hilberg is selective.
>Everybody who writes on the history of anything is selective.

Excuse me. Hilberg is NOT a historian. Please do not grant him that
position.

If
>Hilberg were not selective, his book would far outweigh the 485 tons
>of captured Nazi documents simply because he would have to quote each
>document in full and then offer his narrative commentary.

485 tons and of which less than one ounce contains code words that can
be construed to refer to gassing. Why am I not impressed with this?

>The question is not whether Hilberg is selective with this or that
>source, but whether he is honest in his selection of evidence and
>whether he is clear and forthcoming about the methods governing his
>selection. If you can show that Hilberg is not honest or even if he is
>gravely mistaken, I would be interested to hear your explanation.

He was NOT honest in his books. Under oath is the first time this has
come out. However, if you can find this admission in any of his books
you will have come a long way. And of course he could have simply
pointed out in his testimony to where he said it in his books as a clear
answer.

But defend him better than he defended himself. He may thank you.

>>>Do you regard this report to be an accurate reflection of Raul
>>>Hilberg’s participation in the Zuendel “false news” trials and an
>>>accurate reflection of his testimony?

>>>If not, why did you post it? If so, could you explain how it is
>>>accurate by reference to other accounts of the trial?

>> I hold, for the above reasons, that it is an acceptable description.

>> When you get down to it, taking away all the things that do not agree
>>from all the stories, we are left with nothing but a camp rumor lacking
>>physical evidence. I can’t change that.

>But you can change that simply by changing your opinion, because this
>idea that contradictions are self-cancelling is your opinion and is
>not a recognized methodology or procedure considered valid by any
>critical inquirer whether in law, science, literature, or history.

That was his statement and not mine so tell him about it. And he is not
a historian.

>What you are suggesting is an atomistic positivism

I ceased being impressed with jargon two weeks after I was hired by the
US (real) Navy. Try english next time.

so radical that, so
>far from seeing the verifiable, you are actually prevented from
>knowing anything at all. Perhaps the Holocaust is not the problem at
>all, but your own epistemological crisis.

But I have run into immature attempts to play with jargon. To wit …

>Think about it. Outside of yourself, what do you know with any
>certainty?

You mean that you have no certainty about the holocaust? Then why are
you supporting it?

God! that was juvenile.

What do you do for an encore? Espouse nihilism? Monadism?

I holocaust therefore I am?

Grow up before you try to discuss the subject again. I deal with six
zits like you before breakfast every day.

Read Korzybski and grow up.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 45011 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:07:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:09:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>All the following photos are in

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

>and

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>They are scanned from “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R. Phillips,
>William Hodge and Company, 1949.

>Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
>Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.

Fascinating descriptions. In just the last message you posted quotes
>from a survivor of Belsen saying that the inmates were disposing of the
dead.

Ah, I remember, that last time you advertised this list you said it was
after the surrender and the British were in charge.

But then there is no way to identify what in any connection these women
have to the SS. But let us grant they do, even though it was previously
stated they were hired low life and prostitutes.

It must be another example of pure Nazi evil. It can not be a matter of
sex for food and water could it? Of course not. Nothing human (and
professional to boot) like that. It has to be a result of pure Nazi
evil.

Alternative explanations shall be attacked as anti-semitic. Only Nazi
evil is permitted to explain anything.

It is a nice touch about the corpse of a child being thrown in, though,
seeing how it was under BRITISH direction at the time. I guess the
Brits were proud of ordering it so they photographed it. Or does it
suddenly become acceptable when the Brits order it?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:20:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:22:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Q. What did Kramer [commandant of Belsen camp] say to you when you
> told him about the growing need for water at Belsen and for the
> need to remove the corpses?

Who is doing the questioning? Where is this recorded?

>A. He told me ‘you cannot give me any orders.’ The corpses were
> lying all round the camp.

Who said this? Where? It is different from the wording in your
previous post so it is not the same doctor.

>[…]

>Q. Do you seriously think then that the SS had any intention of
> using Belsen as a convalescent camp?

>A. In the beginning there was some talk of the camp being some sort
> of exchange camp for prisoners, but later on it did not give me
> that impression at all. It was not a camp for sick people, it was
> a death camp, a torture camp.

> -From the testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein (“The
> Belsen Trial”, p. 187-8).

Is this a different doctor? No, it is the same doctor. But this is his
testimony just like the above is his answer to a question even though
they are quite different.

Testimony of SS-doctor, Obersturmfuherer Fritz Klein (p. 717):
————————————————————
Whilst at Belsen I made several complaints to Kommandant Kramer
about the conditions there. I was told that I was only a doctor
and that it was nothing to do with me. Three days before the
British came, when I took over the camp, I had a talk with
Kramer about the conditions. I told Kramer that the corpses
should be removed, and that water should be supplied to
prisoners as many were dying from thirst. Kramer said he did
not take orders from me.

>-Danny Keren.

So what are the two sources you used for these quotes?

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:24:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:26:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>Heck, since Dan Keren is using retreads, I may as well do the same:

>Dvd, I don’t think there is any need to justify using material that
>has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out here
>just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
>informing any new comers to alt.rev.

I think it is an outstanding policy to return floods of reposts with
floods of reposts.

After all the holohuggers think they own this conference. It is about
time they learned better. After all if a low IQ person such as I can do
what two of them now have said I have done, if everyone starts doing
this we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
revisionism.

That is, make it useless to the hijackers.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those wild and crazy JPEGs
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:41:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 6:43:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Nizkor carries two images of the layout of what appear to be claimed to
be (that is the correct wording) the leichenkeller. One of them is
simply a blown up detail of the larger drawing.

None of this matches any of the verbal descriptions that have been made
so far.

Perhaps it is another phantasm like Keren’s evidence of death by fire
with no signs of fire.

To find them, (sorry about this) search on jpg. The names will differ
by the addition of the word “detail” to one name.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:14 PDT 1996
Article: 45025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:02:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 9:04:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33499 can.politics:53456 talk.politics.misc:394477 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1512 alt.revisionism:45025 alt.censorship:86089

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>”Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>> Whew boy, is it getting weird in here…expensive 486’s

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-expensive-486

Is this what you wanted people to find?

Ah — significantly more than that, actually. UnixWare alone set us
back about $1000, I think. And we got it over a year ago, when 486s
weren’t _quite_ so cheap as now. We spent somewhat into five digits for
the current setup.

The price about bottomed out a year ago for those with excess
inventories of machines based on a chip no longer in production. And
then you could hardly find anyone selling them. Today, rather than
being “less expensive” it would be damned near impossible to get at
25MHz chip, special order maybe, or find someone who got stuck with a
pile of them.

I just checked my son and they have not sold anything new less than a 66
since he started there last August. So it is perhaps more of a miracle
that they even found a 25 new a year ago.

Beginning to sound to me like McVay passed around the hat for an
inflated price on a used machine.

>> lack of FTP skills

>Um, Poindexter? Who do you think _wrote_ the CGI gateway you’ll be using
>when you access that URL? Duh.

You mean you didn’t think to simply run FTP in the background and need
no CGI scripting? How much time did you waste doing it your way?

Now lets get to the $966US you wasted on UnixWare rather than Linux.

$33 is the current price for the six CD Linux set.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:16:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 9:18:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Mental retardation alert: Giwer has not provided any evidence that
>## there are cyanide traces on the outside wall of the Krema I gas
>## chamber. He’s confusing it for other chambers (which were indeed
>## delousing chambers).

># The pipes are still callin you. Krema I is reconstruction
># based upon an artists conception of what it might have looked like.

>A few hours ago, he said it used to be a delousing chamber
>and that it has cyanide compounds on its outer walls.

The one at Krema I is the one at Auschwitz. That is the one that is a
reconstruction. I was referring to Madjdanik as were you when this
started.

>Then, he was asked to give a source for the traces on the
>outside walls (which are, indeed, typical of delousing chambers
>which were in long and extensive use).

>Then, he drops this claim about cyanide compounds on the outside
>walls, and starts screeching about it being a “reconstruction
>based upon an artists conception”.

>We have to set his matter straight.

>Two questions for the Giwer:

>1) Are there cyanide compounds on the inside walls of the
> Krema I gas chamber?

>2) Are there cyanide compounds on the outside walls of the
> Krema I gas chamber?

># You are still being suckered in by it. You are very foolish.

>Answer the questions, please.

As I said, there was no question about sources when a holohugger brought
it up. I will not be held to a double standard.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45028 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a surprise
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:34:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 2:36:46 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Amazing here.

After having their “declaration of submission” thrown back in their face
the holohuggers have decided to resort to complaints to ROOT. I have
gotten my third in the last six hours, of course with a CC to me as a
threat.

The only thing they have not made pubic yet is the strategy session they
indulged in.

For example here is the first and only email from OBC himself which
arrived as I was creating this message,

=====

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Message-Id:
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 02:23 PDT
From: [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mr. Schoedel’s problem, Nizkor’s solutions
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>

>On 20 Jun 1996 19:30:33 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
>OBC) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>”reverend” Ronald Schoedel wrote:

>>> Whew boy, is it getting weird in here…expensive 486’s,
>>> lack of FTP skills, whoa, is it any wonder the Zinkor website
>>> is totally unaccesible to me and surely others

>>We have taken note of the “reverend” Schoedel’s inability to
>>access our site, and his lack of patience, and given thanks that
>>the _other_ 800 or so who do manage to obtain the 3000 pages they
>>request daily are able to do so.

> Given the fact that you appear to have passed the hat for a used 486DX25
>when it was damned near impossible to buy such a machine when the chip
>was out of production, your scam artist nature is obvious.

> And then we get to the claim that you wasted $1000 on UnixWorks rather
>than LInux.

>>We have become deeply concerned over the inability of some
>>users to access the “reverend” Schoedel’s very own Nizkor
>>pages, and have taken steps to solve the problem.

> Clear bullshit. You have not the least idea what you are talking about.

>>In the meantime, those with tireless patience, and a desire to
>>see the “reverend” Schoedel in full cry, are urged to explore
>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/s/schoedel-ronald/

>>We will announce appropriate solutions to the “reverend”
>>Schoedel’s problem within a short time. Until then, we urge
>>the “reverend” to enjoy himself and have a nice day.

>>As to Mr. Schoedel’s lack of ftp skills, we can only wonder.
>>With two ftp sites available, perhaps tutoring from his local
>>ISP might be in order, so that he might find one of them;
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? and
>>ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ work as they
>>should, for those who understand how to configure and utilize
>>their software.

>>(The last time we checked, Europe was still on the net, altho
>>we concede the “reverend’s” unlikely to be able to find it.)

> Rather someone deceived the contributors about the costs involved and
>promised a web presense that was in no was delivered and someone took
>the difference in their pocket.

> It is also interesting that Nizkor had some sucker synagogue offer tax
>reciepts BEFORE Nizkor had tax exempt status. In the US that is called
>fraud.

=====================================================================
Your mail has been returned to you, unread.

This is either because:

1. You have filtered your mail through an anonymous
remailer, or

2. Your userid is on our list of undesirable correspondents,
and your email is automatically redirected to your
mailbox by our gatekeeper.

3. Someone using your server has been persistently
abusive, and your system administrators are
unwilling to do anything about it.

4. We’ve let an error in our Gatekeeper’s control file
slip through, and you’ve been unfairly rejected. We
check our logs carefully, and do our utmost to
correct such errors, and we apologize if you have
been rejected without reason.

Our users monitor the newsgroup alt.revisionism on a daily basis; if
you have an important issue which you would like to discuss with one
of them, please post it there.

The Nizkor Gatekeeper
=====================================================================

=======

As you can see, these folks, these amateurs, these children, are trying
to create an incident they can exploit as net abuse.

These holohuggers are trying to create an issue to get poor little minus
163 IQ me. And of course they fail as usual.

But what the hell, they are holohuggers. No one expects honesty from
them. Nor when they put their collective heads together does anything
but the lowest common denominator appear.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:17 PDT 1996
Article: 45033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a typical example of a holohugger tactic
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:58:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 4:00:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

You will note that this lying bastard son of a something or other
insists upon creating an issue where there is no issue.

And you will note that it contradicts the previous clain that complaints
to root would be unethical.

Yes, holohuggers are unethical. And, they lie. But of course to
support the holocaust they have to be liars.

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Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:23:02 -0400
From: [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy)
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected], [email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
[email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Newsgroups:
news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
References:
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Organization: Absence Software

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following
newsgroups:
news.admin.net-abuse.misc, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism)

Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc; emailed “FYI” to various
people whom Giwer calls “hijackers” and several pro-free-speech
acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.

Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
alt.revisionism and “make it useless” to everyone with whom he
disagrees.
He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
volume. Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
wrote (quoted in its entirety):

: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
:
: >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
:
: >>Heck, since Dan Keren is using retreads, I may as well do the same:
:
: >Dvd, I don’t think there is any need to justify using material that
: >has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out
here
: >just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
: >informing any new comers to alt.rev.
:
: I think it is an outstanding policy to return floods of
reposts with
: floods of reposts.
:
: After all the holohuggers think they own this conference. It
is about
: time they learned better. After all if a low IQ person such as I can
do
: what two of them now have said I have done, if everyone starts doing
: this we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
: revisionism.
:
: That is, make it useless to the hijackers.

Nizkor will continue to maintain an archive on this net abuser’s tactics
and goals at:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
[email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 45043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:07:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 9:09:18 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

># In short, Mattogno proposes to take all the shining, beautiful theories
># of revisionist science, the ones constructed over the past twenty years,
># and replace them with an entirely new one.

>Which, as Mr. McCarthy correctly notes, completely contradicts
>all the other “revisionist” theories.

The target keeps moving.

>For years and years they babble about how it was impossible
>to use cyanide gas in this gas chamber, and now they’re saying it
>was really a delousing chamber, which uses cyanide gas rather
>often, and at high concentrations?

Delousing chambers are heated to prevent condensation else they kill
people, like the next batch and ventilation does not help that, cold air
ventilation makes it worse.

>This is simply fascinating.

>My own guess is that the nazi-boys will finally conclude that
>the gas chamber was really a secret base in which crazy Zundel’s
>”German UFO’s” parked for refueling on their way to the “secret
>base in the South-Pole”.

Is it really true that Pressac believes in UFO abductions?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 45044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:04:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>[Regarding Pressac]

># How hard can it be to refute a pharmacist who does not
># know what a crystal is?

>Pathologicl liar alert: Giwer has no proof whatsoever that
>Pressac does not know what a crystal is. He relies on the
>false assumption that Pressac claims Zyklon-B came in
>crystals, but Pressac never said this.

>Giwer lies once again. But he can’t help it. It’s a disease.
>He just can’t stop.

Unless one of the Nizkorites was lying, his description of Zyklon B was
posted here with the description of the carrier as a crystal.

But then that still does not make him any more than a pharmacist,
certainly in the league with Leuchter on this subject.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another Griswold assertion (was: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:39:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33509 alt.revisionism:45045

[email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:

>> Grizzled old fart Chuckles Ferree ([email protected]) writes:

>> > […deletia…]

>> > Who says anything about entering the camps after the cessation of
>> > hostilities? The war ended May 8th. 1945, my group entered most camps
>> > while fighting was still going on. At Dachau for instance, we were
>> > fired upon by SS die-hards, and believe me they diedhard. Lots of ’em.
>>
>> Yeah, after they surrendered, and were disarmed, you brave bastards shot
>> them. Way to go. Feel proud that you shot disarmed men?

>Please present evidence, Griswold, that:

> (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
> were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
> (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau

He told a great story about it. Even recounted the shooting. Of course
he was copying from some professionally written material by the quality
of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.

He also claimed to be a camp liberator and a fighter pilot. One
presumes he destroyed the camp in order to save it.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:20 PDT 1996
Article: 45062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 2) “They were afraid that they too would be accused”
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:52:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 10:54:46 PM CDT 1996
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Jeff wrote:

>9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was
>transferred
>with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
>It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One
>was
>cut off from the outside world.
>Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about
>witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver
>received
>only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was
>made
>impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special
>letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were
>fruitless.
>Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating
>material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was
>far
>too short to obtain any material.

As I have noted many times, this is the sort of thing that the orthodox
consider to be justice.

>10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted until 21 August.

>11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting
>authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor,
>Mr.
>Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses
>and
>trying to make out that they were liars.

>12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were
>intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It
> happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign
>former prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for
>the defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of
>something,
>which the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated
>everything
>German and were out for revenge.

It appears that has not changed much, to hell with the evidence.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No one…..
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:00:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Jeff wrote:

>A defendant on trial in a criminal case under U.S. law is not required
>to testify, to present evidence, to call witnesses, to defend himself
>or to prove his innocence at any time.

>The first thing the defense attorney does in a criminal trial under
>our system of law is to remind the jury (there is a jury even in
>military trials) that accusations are not evidence; that the
>prosecutor’s opening and closing statements to the jury are not evidence;
>and that he and the defendant are not required to do anything or prove
>anything. In the words of one trial lawyer, “Not one word you have
>heard up to now, including the last word I just said, is evidence
>of anything,”

>No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on
>the basis of a “soap dish” accompanied by a ‘confession” which has
>disappeared, said to have been signed by an “accomplice” no one has
>ever heard of, and which was simply “quoted” by the prosecutor.

>No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on
>the basis of a “report” written by the prosecutors: if that were
>possible, there would be no need for a trial, because the
>indictment would suffice for conviction.

>No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on
>the basis of a “shrunken head” accompanied by an “affidavit”.

>[from Made in Russia – The Holocaust by C W Porter]

It is also interesting that for the last two centuries or so no one has
been convicted under British law on such things. And in France for
about 120 years. And in Russia about ten years.

One does have to wonder who set the ground rules.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:24:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:05:37 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>[snip]

>> And country with any law restricting “false news” is a disgrace to
>>civilization. But in reference to Canada, that is redundant.

>The Supreme Court of Canada overturned Ernst Zuendel’s two jury
>convictions for spreading false news on the grounds that the law was
>an unconstitutional restriction on free speech.

I am aware of that. Passing such a law is a disgrace. Prosecution
under it is a disgrace. Claiming that anything Zundel said was news was
a blatant misrepresentation to the court.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45070 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to Spot a Jew (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel/jewry/index.html)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:19:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>”Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>>[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>>>Ah, Swaggart….now THERE’s a reliable source.

>>I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again…he’s on YOUR SIDE!!!!

>Ronny….Swaggart AIN’T on my SIDE.

>>>>Why support Israel in the first place?
>>>
>>>Because they are the only democracy in a extremely unstable part of
>>>the world?

>>But they are not a democracy. They have terrible racist immigration
>>laws, too…How can you support that?

>Right….that must be why they airlifted all those black Jews from
>Ethiopia into Israel 15 yrs ago.

>JUDAISM IS NOT A RACE, IDIOT.

Correct. It is really a group of tribes.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45075 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:15:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 4:17:41 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Same reason there are traces on the outside walls. It was a
># large scale delousing facility of the pre-Degesh design. Things
># like mattresses were leaned against the outside wall to complete
># the airing out.

>Mental retardation alert: Giwer has not provided any evidence that
>there are cyanide traces on the outside wall of the Krema I gas
>chamber. He’s confusing it for other chambers (which were indeed
>delousing chambers).

>Don’t call it trolling; it’s not that. It’s brain damage.

The pipes are still callin you. Krema I is reconstruction based upon an
artists conception of what it might have looked like. You are still
being suckered in by it. You are very foolish.

It is even in the Auschwitz FAQ although it questionably gives a
pharamacist as an authority on the matter.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !ALEC GRYNSPAN IS A LIAR PROOF
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:10:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 5:12:22 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:40:49 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>>Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
>!>>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.

>!>So how you going to deny this. Bad staff? Bad employees? Bad software?
>!>Not enough header? Its a forgery? But however you worm around it, it
>!>will be some unethical, dishonest sleazy crap which is your shit
>!>ture.

>!You mean my son and I are not permitted to have a mutual friend? Not
>!even one? What did we do to deserve that?

>yeah, I guess I have to give in on this one. It was your bad grammer.

It was your fucking paranoia, Ms. Stern.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; 12 million dead
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:40:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]fw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 8:42:18 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>> Well, I have to speak up for Mr. Giwer on this one. Of course he
>>demands to see the graves themselves, not testimony that graves existed.

>Mr. Giwer would only demand to see the graves if he knew that
>he could not see the graves.

>If he _could_ see the graves, he would demand to see the
>_bodies_ in the graves.

>If he could see the bodies in the graves, he would demand to
>see the autopsy reports that established the cause of death,
>and proved the victim was Jewish.

>If he could see the autopsy reports, he would denounce them as
>forgeries. That is because Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can
>determine, a troller whose only interest is in causing fights.

But as you folks know, you can provide none of the above. So what is
your point in the litany?

But it is good to see you admitting you have no physical evidence for
the testimony to support. That is what I have been saying all along.

>While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
>special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
>appropriately ignored.

>–
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
> [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)……unlearn

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 08:10:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An interesting point
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:23:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 11:25:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:01:12 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>>>FWIW, they needed the crematoria because the smell of burning flesh
>>>was disturbing some of the camps inhabitants. Plus using crematoria is
>>>proper even if used without ethical considerations. It seems that when
>>>it came to Jews and other perceived untermench, ethics didn’t enter
>>>into the picture very much. You of all people can understand that, Mr.
>>>Giwer?

>> Upon what do you base this little bit of fantasy? That it “stands to
>>reason” or some such? But at least you point out they were
>>compassionate about disturbing the inmates.

>I believe the word used was “inhabitants,” not “inmates.” The
>inhabitants of the camp included the SS guards and administration. In
>any event, there were numerous complaints from the civilian
>adminstration in Auschwitz town.

Inhabitants would include inmates.

>> As for your foolish ethical claim, you know because, eyewitnesses have
>>said it, that the ashes were used on icy sidewalks and the like.
>>Therefore an appeal to ethics is a specious arguement.

>No. Your reply is specious because you misread “inmates” for
>”inhabitants.” There was nothing ethical about te SS treatment of
>their victims.

Your ethical claim is still bullshit.

>> But you know that. Rather you would ignore that point and slander me
>>like the holohugger you really are.

>Still name-calling. I see.

Holohugger is a legitimate acronym I have yet to read any other term
suggested. I’ll will consider using “righteous” or “self-annoited” if
that will make you feel better.

What would you suggest as a name?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 09:53:42 PDT 1996
Article: 53524 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:08:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]leton.ca>,
>[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:

>> Chuckles has yet to clarify for me: HE claims that there WERE
>> extermination facilities in Germany, but Simon Wiesenthal claims there
>> WEREN’T. So who’s right?

>No, Mr. Griswold, Mr. Wiesenthal said, I believe, that “there were no
>extermination camps on German soil.” The operative word her is “camps.”
>Not quite the same thing as “facilities.”

>This is reaffirmed by the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s _36 Questions About
>the Holocaust_:

>”6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they located?

>”Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with
>special apparatus specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such
>camps existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor,
>Treblinka. All were located in Poland.

>Source: http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/36quest1.htm#6

A special apparatus of which there is no longer any evidence as we all
know.

You folks insist upon begging the question that there was anyone capable
of designing such a thing as it was the first. It would be a matter of
experimentation to get the design correct and there was no such
experimentation, period.

When there are NO experts in any kind of mass extermination gas chamber
in the world one can NEVER claim they were lucky enough to get it right
the first time when in fact they got it so wrong the first time.

The physical properties of the Leichenkellern make it impossible for
them to work when the outside temperature is below the condensation
temperature.

>Of course, this doesn’t mean that there weren’t extermination _facilities_
>on “German soil” (i.e. the “Old Reich”). There were. Such facilities were
>part of Aktion T4, the “euthanasia” program. There were six “euthanasia”
>facilites: Grafneck (A), Brandenburg (B), Bernburg (Be), Hartheim (C),
>Sonnenstein (D), and Hadmar (E). Of these six facilities, five were in
>Germany (A, B, Be, D, and E) while one (C) was in Austria, which was part
>of the “Greater Reich.”

>It is also worth noting that both Auschwitz-Birkenau and Kulmhof (Chelmno)
>extermination camps were also located in the “Greater Reich,” while the
>Belzac, Maidanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka extermination camps were located
>the Occupied Eastern Territories (i.e. the Generalgouvernement.)

>Source: _Nazi Mass Murder_, pp.18, 37, 249.

Not an original source is it? Go back to Go.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:00:51 PDT 1996
Article: 10900 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:57:53 GMT
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Phil Edwards wrote:

>Horrendous miskeying alert!

>Phil Edwards wrote:

>> Let’s take this one stage further.
>>
>> Assume for a second that the existing historical record _was_ compatible
>> with there not having been a Holocaust. (Sounds deeply suspect, I know,
>> but bear with me). Then ask, what would be different if there had been?
>>
>> Would there be physical evidence that nobody, not even those who wished
>> to argue that the Holocaust had happened, could deny?

>That should of course read “had not happened”. Many apologies.

>I’ll just repeat my original conclusion for anyone who’s reading this
>first…

>The Holocaust revisionists (such as Giwer, let’s not be in any doubt)

>think that picking holes in the detail of the
>accepted historical picture is tantamount to undermining it as a whole.

Actually this is quite a distortion. The point is rather that the basis
for this holocaust has been repeatedly sanitized until today you would
not recognize the original. What has been removed is what would appear
ridiculous if you were to read it now.

However, these things were introduced as evidence at the war crimes
trials.

On the other hand when one looks at war time conditions and at the
defense testimony, in fact when one merely considers what the war would
have been like, one finds a terribly one-sided rendering of the
holocaust. For example, conditions at Belsen were terrible when it was
found but the commandant tried to surrender two weeks early because the
Allied bombing had cut off all food and water.

As I have observed many times, were the end conditions at these camps
the conditions for all the time they existed, there would have been no
survivors. Clearly the end time most people have in quite in error.

Revision is in fact an attempt to eliminate the easy explanation of
“evil Nazis” and try to reconstruct what did happen. Evil perhaps but
that can not be used as the entire motivation for everything. It really
is too simple.

>It’s not that easy: even if you could prove the most outrageous of the
>revisionists’ claims (that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, say)
>it would only be an interesting footnote in history. The slaughter of 6
>million Jews (and half a million Gypsies and an unknown number of
>”Aryans” judged “unfit”) would still be a historical fact.

>What the revisionists are really trying to do is to replace the entire
>historical record with one dominated by a vast international Jewish
>conspiracy (Faurisson: the gas chambers are a “Zionist lie”). But that’s
>not history – it’s contemptible, paranoid, anti-semitic garbage.

The problem of course in doing this is any attempt to deal with what
happened on any level other than “evil Nazis” runs into the claim that
it is in some inexplicable manner anti-semitic. Yet we find the only
basis for “evil” is what they did to the Jews and because of what they
did to the Jews they were evil. That is a bit to small a circle for me.

And because of this very small circle the story must run in, it becomes
very difficult to discuss anything that does not presume evil without a
barrage of unthinking name calling.

And as for the other side of this debate, you will notice they are
starting to bombard this conference with their flames just like they do
in alt.revisionism. In the past when they find someone not towing the
line on what they want people to believe they invite them to post to
alt.revisionism “where it belongs.” There they do not discuss the
matter as promised but rather subject the person to endless abuse and
insults and name calling.

And, as I discovered, it also results in harrassment of myself and my
family by them over the internet and by telephone. They harrassed my
original ISP until I they were interferring with his business so much
that he dropped me for economic reasons. Others have reported that
their employers have been contacted.

The subject stands out as unique among all the things to discuss in
history, this one is forbidden. Abusive and nearly literal terrorist
tactics being used to stop anyone from saying anything that they do not
want to be said.

It would be interesting is someone could justify this in a manner that
does not simply repeat an old claim but in fact justify that claim.

But to get ahead of the obvious one, WHAT IF people were not to believe
in the holocaust? Would the Nazis or some similar organization rise and
again and if so, how?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:00:52 PDT 1996
Article: 10903 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:43:00 GMT
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[email protected] (John Abbott) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>Agreed. You have shown your agenda in other posts (the Nazis didn’t do
>>>anything antisemitic before the Nuremberg Laws, the evidence for gassings
>>>of Jews all comes from the USSR, etc) and you have refused to make a
>>>response to this request.

>> Bot of those things are true. I would certainly be interested in
>>reading anything but rhetoric prior to 1 April 1933.
>
> So anti-semitic rhetoric doesn’t count? You have an interesting
>definition of anti-semitism. And SA thugs killed several people prior to
>1933, including Jews.

I am unaware that the virulent anti-negro political rhetoric ever lead
to any action by the government. Rather it was all rhetoric by the
politician and no action. Individual actions started before the
political rhetoric.

> > And as you know all of the extermination camps were in territories
>>liberated by the Russians and the other allies did not have access to
>>them, who else would the information have come from?

> From eyewitnesses who went to the US, UK, and French zones, as well
>as from records captured elsewhere in Germany.

There is extremely little in the way of records that refer to anything
other than various forms of camps. As to very little I mean tens of
thousands of documents referring to camps and a mere handful referring
to anything else. And in that mere handful, they all use “code words”
and are not explicite in the least.

As for eyewitnesses, if historians relied upon eyewitnesses after the
war it would be amazing how many millions of people personally won the
war. Memory is not reliable.

As for facts, the sauna for the inmates at Birkenau is one of the most
incongruous to tradition things around.

>> > Simon Wiesenthal has written several times that there were no
>>extermination camps in Germany. I don’t see what the problem is with
>>what I have said.

> You said the USSR is the main to the only source of (in your
>words) “gassing tales.” This clearly implies that the gassings could
>all be Soviet propaganda.

Since they were in charge of all investigation in the areas they
liberated and no other investigators were allowed in, they were the only
possible source of such information.

But if you question that the Soviets were not willing to fabricate
documents and witnesses, they tried to pin Katyn Woods on the Germans at
the IMT and had witness and documentaion to support it. Fortunately
that one was rejected.

I came to the subject of the Holocaust in a serious manner expecting to
find the “revisionists” to be using logical fallacies and false claims
about science. What I found is that those supporting the holocaust were
using the methods of those supporting UFO abductions. I was quite
surprised.

The “revisionists” were merely examing the tales of the holocaust as
though they were stories of UFO abductions and pointing out the
inconsistancies and either the lack of physical evidence or the failure
to consider more mundane interpretations of what is claimed to be
physical evidence.

From what I have seen so far, yes, gassing could be completely Soviet
propaganda and also manufactured witnesses and evidence. Now that may
sound a bit strange these days but if you go back to the IMT you find
there was eyewitness testimony of a lot of things. Such as people being
exterminated by steam, electrocution, and being put into vacuum
chambers.

Back when there was still a belief in German superscience eyewitnesses
swore bodies were burned without fuel. I have a substantial collection
of such things.

And looking further we find that these eyewitnesses never appeared in
court but were unsigned statements by persons who may or may not have
ever existed. This kind of “testimony” was introduced as evidence.

I have a problem with that.

>>>You have complained about other peo ple being off-topic when they point
>>>out your Holocaust-denying proclivities. But here is a request relating
>>>_specifically_ to alternate history and you decline to respond to it.
>>>I’d say that speaks volumes.
>>>Or are you tacitly admitting that the Holocaust did, in fact, occur, and
>>>that discussion of it is therefore _not_ in general alternate history?

>> It not having occurred, according to you, fits alternate history.
>> So lets continue but lets also start from the base of what did in fact
>>happen.

> A valiant attempt to duck the question, but a failure I think.

>This will be my final reply to Mr. Giwer, who is unworthy of the
>attention of myself or any thinking person. I have killfiled him, and I
>suggest that others do the same. His only evident interest on this group
>is to provoke fights and spread lies.

Then only the others will read the response.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:00:53 PDT 1996
Article: 10904 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:58:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] writes

>>Eric Palo wrote:

>>>> >In article <[email protected]>, From
>>>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer), the following was written:

>>>> >> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>>>> >> with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>>>> >> brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>>>> >> war with England?

>>>What is England doing while Germany is turning out submarines like
>>>sausages? Do you think Germany could hide that many boats?

>> Ignore it of course, just like they ignored violations of
>>aircraft and tank production of course. There was no hiding of the
>>planes or tanks. And subs are easier to hide.

>”Subs are easier to hide”. What sort of psychoactive drug is Giwer on ?

I would have thought that when tanks go on maneouvers one could observe
hundreds of them at a time and hear all the noise, as compared to subs
that is.

>>>You can’t postulate 500 German submarines without also considering a
>>>different UK Navy ready to deal with them.

>> There was no effective way to deal with submarines at the time.
>>In fact there was no effective way to deal with submarines until about
>>the mid 1970s.

>I suppose that means that reports of submarines being sunk in WWI and
>WWII are distortions ? Likewise, reports of sonar being in use in 1939
>are concocted, that MAD, sonobuoys and ASW homing torpedoes in WWII are
>a figment of the collectve imagination, and so on.

The range of such equipment was to find the submarine after being
alerted by a torpedo hitting a ship and then hoping to be able to get
near enough to the sub’s guesstimated location before it got away.
“Screening” a convoy was a moral builder not an actuality.

Reliable hull mounted sonar range, the best available was only on the
order of 4000 yards with good luck and good conditions maybe doubling
that. All of the rest were less and, in comparison to hull mounted
sonar, still are. They were all a hope and a prayer.

If you are talking effective, I do not consider the submarine alert
system to be either effective or desirable.

>>>I don’t know what the UK response would have been, but I will wager a
>>>lot that there would have been one, and probably quite effective.
>>>Remember that they had a taste of submarine warfare in WWI and should
>>>have known what that many boats would mean.

>> With 20 years in sonar and ASW I have no idea what that
>>response could have been prior to computers.

>I believe you :- you really don’t have any idea.

>> Perhaps you could enlighten me.

>Probably not.

Agreed.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:00:54 PDT 1996
Article: 10914 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:12:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Raider Goo wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >Giwer is demonstrably a holocaust revisionist infiltrating this list, and
>> >as such his some of postings violate our charter. Can the moderators
>> >refuse to post his revisionist propaganda, while leaving him free to post
>> >misinformation on other topics? That would leave his speech rights and
>> >our charter both intact. Comments?
>>
>> Is there a problem with considering revisionism an alternate history?
>> At least there appear to be enough people here that know history to be
>> able to separate revisionism from what really happened. Not so?

> Matt Giwer’s meanderings are chock full of two scoops of bullshit,
>just like Kellog’s Raisin Bran. It has been well documented what foul
>stench you slip into the arena. I don’t see a dark agenda of revanchist
>nitwits when discussing the impact of the USS Nimitz in 1941, what the
>Mongels would or would not have done in their heyday, nor the consequences
>of Stanley Goodboddy, timetraveler at large leaving behind a candy bar
>wrapper 600 million years ago.

> I’m glad that the Allies beat the pulp out of the Nazis, and strung
>up some of ’em. My regret is that Hitler didn’t get tried and executed.

Strung them up is exactly what they did. After Judge Roy Bean got
through with them.

> Matt Giwer is deliberately trolling to plant the seeds of doubt and
>cloud the clarity of the collective memories of humanity.

You should know as well as anyone that if all the memories of what
people did during the war were true, there were millions of CMOs that
went unawarded.

Matt Giwer is
>attempting to find a new home after his old haunts grew tired of sweetly
>formed conclusions of Nazi innocence with a few disparate facts while
>ignoring the huge body (and the dead bodies) of the Second World War era.

What bodies do you think I am talking about?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 10915 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:16:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Goodman) wrote:

>In article ,
>Raider Goo wrote:
>>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> Is there a problem with considering revisionism an alternate history?

>Yes — the obvious one that it’s being presented as what _really_
>happened in history.

That makes it only a little more realistic than most what-ifs. It is
sort of like presenting the side of the Confederacy in 1870.

>Similarly, if someone were to say that Cleopatra was Black, or that the
>US was a Christian nation until 1920 — when a small group of people in
>Greenwich Village took it over and distorted its history, or that the
>English Royal Family is and has always been secretly Pagan, that would
>not be alternate history.

Or if someone suggested that Andersonville Prison was the best the South
could do under war time conditions? Am I mistaken in remembering the
man who ran the camp was hung?

>Now, if someone holding such beliefs wrote about an alternate world in
>which what most historians believe _was_ true, that _would_ be alternate
>history.

>With Holocaust revisionism, there’s also the small problem that many of
>its supporters don’t really believe their own scheiss.

Actually it is primarily putting things in context of any war. After
all, the losers in every war committed atrocities. It is not surprising
to you that for the first time they were really true?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45108 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet Another Example of “Revisionist” Scholarship
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:43:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># It already has. Keren has posted references to six pictures
># claiming they refer to people being burned alive and not one of
># them shows any signs of burning. Three show contraindications of
># burning. But then, he sent them, he believes them.

>I refer again to the photographs of people burned alive by
>the Nazis in other camps:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

>(if this one fails, try

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/ )

>Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg
>Gardelegen2.jpg Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:13:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45121 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones walk again
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:11:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>
>> Of those of you who have seen such things as described would
>everyone
>> who has seen the skull or the pelvis as separate component bones please
>> raise your hands?
>>
>> No hands showing? Thank you.

> Odd that you should answer the question yourself. Too bad that no
>anatomist would ever agree with you.

You holoterrorists are the only ones with your hands showing.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 11:13:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45124 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The holohugger conspiracy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:08:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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If anyone were questioning it, compare the following to the public post
by some other idiot holohugger which is nearly identical to this one.

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From: Gord McFee
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:53:36 +0100
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: What gives?
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.03

Matt:

I am going to try one serious message with you. There are probably not
two
people on Usenet, certainly not in alt.revisionism, who have reviled
each
other any more than you and I. Personal feelings aside, I seriously
want to
know what makes you tick. Ergo, this message. If you don’t want to
correspond with me, a simple “fuck off McFee” bounced back will do the
trick;
but if you do, please read on.

I have carefully looked at many of your posts over the months. And
something
doesn’t add up. I have difficulty believing you are really a
“revisionist”,
because, quite frankly, you come across as too intelligent. Most
“revisionists” are pretty dimwitted, and you decidedly are not. What
you do
seem to like to do is argue. Politics, religion, history, you name it.
You
also seem to like to take unpopular causes, get the whole newsgroup
against
you, and then try to fight your way out. And you do this well. Your
techniques are very effective. You know how to push buttons. If a
person
will be most likely to respond faced with outright distortion (the
Wannsee
incident), that’s what you do. If insult will elicit a response, you
insult.
If obscenity, you swear. If dragging in irrelevant topics (smoking),
you drag
them in. And the list goes on.

In other words, you are a manipulator. You have said as much publicly
to Alec
Grynspan. You said as much publicly to me one time, but I was too
dimwitted
to understand what you meant. In other words, you troll. You enjoy
manipulating the newsgroup, deciding the topics, steering the discussion
off
in directions you want, distracting people from the thread to get them
where
you want them. Put another way, it’s all about the exercise of power.
You
enter a newsgroup you probably had never heard of before, and, within a
few
short months, you have it dancing to your tune. No mean feat, and you
have
carried it off in superb fashion.

I remember the Marduk affair. You played me like a trout during that
one. Of
course, we both know that I had nothing to do with any of that, but you
were
able to get dozens of posts out of me, and start a major flamewar on
that one
issue alone. You sensed that accusing me falsely of that kind of
juvenile
behaviour would “push my buttons” and you were right.

So, is that it? Is that what makes you tick?


Gord McFee ([email protected])
I’ll write no line before its time

=====

You see McFly really is the idiot asshole he appears to be in public.
And the nearly identical issues demonstrate that he is part of the
private conspiracy to agree upon what to post.

Now we all know that McFly is a terminat idiot but that does not excuse
the other teminal idiots who he conspired with for this email.

You will also note that after this failed the ISP harrassment started
again. It is nothing new. It is the only thing the holohuggers have
left.

They are very desperate at this point.

Two of them have admitted that I have taken over this conferenence
within four hours, one public, one private — he imagined.

Give it up. You folks are mongoloid idiots compared to my minus 163 IQ.

You lost.

I won, I continue to win and will continue to do so. You reaslly
intelligent idiots are no match for me even when you combine your
non-existant brain power.

Give it up.

=====

(Sorry about that, Alec G., but you know how things go on the boards. I
truely regret any consequences that may come to you and Su and all the
rest who are real people. I am very sorry. This is sincere and in this
NG may be the last.

Repeat all of the above one more time.)

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 13:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 45133 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OS/2 is an Operating System?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:40:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 8:42:21 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article
>,
>Kimberley Ahlf said:

>>

>>It is not a question of how much market share is consumed by Windows, OS/2
>>or Unix, but rather the miracle of how much more productive is the
>>Macintosh…

>Arghhh…..

>An obvious troll. 🙂

They don’t get confused by the three buttons like holohuggers.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 13:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 45137 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:08:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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A lot is made about these well designed Liechenkellers yet
there are some serious gaps in the arguement.

The first is that as these were the first mass extermination
gas chambers no one knew how to design them. I would have
thought this to be the most obvious but none of the holohuggers
seem to realize this. Therefore what they declare as “obvious”
can be no more than first cut guesses without experimentation.

That there was an engineering miracle of getting it right
the first time is a subject they will never address.

Next we have people with no engineering or scientific
knowledge declaring they are correctly designed. That claim can
pass without further notice.

The evidence that they were incorrectly designed, presuming
the currently popular L.Keller belief, is quite evident.

First it had a ventilation system. At first glance that
appears to be something expected. Save there is a problem with
the condensation point of HCN, room temperature. But real room
temperature.

If one simply uses external air for ventilation then if that
air is below room temperature the HCN is NOT ventilated but
condenses and “rains” out of the air. Not quite the process but
it collects on the walls, ceiling and floor. There is no
question of this happening.

Thus even if the never reported gas masks were used and if
all of the reports of eating and smoking by those removing the
bodies are not true, the next group of “exterminatees” that
enters the room start dropping like flies from the evaporation
>from vapor pressure. Needless to say, this is not a reported
phenomenon.

More importantly, it points to these well designed gas
chambers being unusable in anything close to winter. And in
Poland there is a very lot more that is close to winter than in
the rest of the world.

There is one report that burning coke was brought into the
LKs to warm it up for the executions. That is a nice touch.
Given that it was there long enough to warm up the room and the
walls and floor and all let us continue.

This heating process takes a lot of time to occur. This
drastically reduces the available time for gassing. Faceciously
it cuts down the claimed fifty million a day to a mere 20 million
a day.

It also fills the room with CO and CO2 which start killing
the people entering the room before it is halfway filled.

But then if all of these things are avoided, the ventilation
system cools down the air by turbulent mixing and the HCN
condenses and we are back where we started with the condensation
problem.

These well designed chambers are simply unusable whenever
the outside air is at or below the condensation point of HCN,
that is, room temperature. To do it right, you preheat the air
before it enters so that it is warmer than room temperature.

The “expert” designs that the holohuggers “instantly”
recognize are deficient in critically important design features.

=====

All holohugger responses are invited so that I can
pre-answer the objections in the next version of this short
article.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 13:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 45145 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:13:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 20 7:15:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>What does the following have to do with deaths from typhus?

> From “The Belsen Trial”, p. 314, testimony of Otto Kulessa:

> Q. How many rivers and streams did you pass on this [train]
> journey?

> A. Very many.

> Q. Then why on earth did you not stop the train and get some
> water for these people who were dying of thirst?

> A. Because the engine driver had his own time-table and it was
> impossible for somebody to interfere with that and tell
> him to stop.

>

And another shocking example of pure Nazi evil. Trains have to run on
schedule. This is quite and amazing example of evil Keren has
uncovered.

Perhaps Danny boy does not realize what happens if a train does not
clear a line before an on-coming train arrives. Sorry for the
anti-semitic explanation there. It is really an example of pure Nazi
evil.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 13:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 45151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:29:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Dvd, I don’t think there is any need to justify using material that
>: has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out here
>: just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
>: informing any new comers to alt.rev.

>Or, in Mr. Moran’s case, amusing them.

One would assume newcomers are here to see what all the fuss is about.
It is important that they be shown what it is about.

From the build up they certainly expect to see posts of Nazi slogans
being dealt with by the righteous.

Instead they find material being presented by one side and juvenile
attacks by the ex-righteous.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 16:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45172 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:05:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 4:07:45 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> Jeff writes:

>Decides to once more defame American soldiers again with this nonsense long
>proved to have been a total invention:

>! The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans
>! accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the
>! beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

> Other than Joe MacCarthy,who made such a charge?

Golly, gee whiz, you commie bastards are still around and behind the
times. The current records released by Russia have the same number
McCarthy used.

Sorry, asshole, McCarthy was right and the Russian records confirm it.

New at eleven.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 16:14:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:43:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 177
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 1:45:50 PM PDT 1996
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Phil Edwards wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> You folks insist upon begging the question that there was anyone capable
>> of designing such a thing as it was the first. It would be a matter of
>> experimentation to get the design correct and there was no such
>> experimentation, period.

>Of course there bloody was. There were mass shootings, there was gassing
>in (moving) vans with exhaust fumes, there were bullets in the neck in
>”shower room” surroundings, there was gassing with CO. Then there was
>gassing with Zyklon B.

Excuse me. I thought I was dealing with educated people.

I was referring to experimentation in the design of mass extermination
gas chambers. There was no experimentation in that.

That makes the claim of “obvious” design features idiotic. Particularly
idiotic in light of the design being so wrong.

>From the first murders of the “unfit” in Germany and of “commissars” on
>the Eastern Front, through to the mass murders in Birkenau, trial and
>error is precisely what the record shows.

>Read some history for fuck’s sake.

Learn to think. Then you might not be so gullible as to believe
everything you read.

>But I guess you won’t, because, as someone once said…

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound
>superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said in
>exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims,
>pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his
>claims (even when they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual
>libel, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented
>evidence of this, please refer to

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Speaking of reading, read this.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: At least part of the Degesh publication
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:06:14 GMT

I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with the
long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.

Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication

History

As long as 80 years ago it was recognized that hydrocyanic acid could be
useful in pest control
but it took half this time to popularize the method.

Deficiencies and disadvantages had first of all to be eliminated from
the method of application.
First this had been done in such a way that hydrocyanic acid was no more
developed on the spot
by mixing cyanides and acid, but this process already took place in the
factory: The so-called “pot
method” was replaced by liquid hydrocyanic acid. The few deficiencies of
this procedure were
removed in the early twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN
to a “carrier
substance”, thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
of liquid HCN were
maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator was reduced to a
minimum. Hydrocyanic
acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for considerable periods
and under all climatic
conditions, any quantity of gas can be easily measured, quickly and
cleanly released. Any
residures are completely harmless.

Composition

In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
stabilized and absorbed in a
porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared
>from wood pulp. Snippets
generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off
the gas more rapidly. Upon
request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
collected at the end of
the fumigation.

Packing

ZYKLON is packed in handy, gas-tight tins of various sizes which are
packed in strong wooden
cases. One case, measuring 72 x 50 x 36 cm contains:

Imperial – units 16 tins, each containing 40 ozs. HCN – total 40 lbs HCN
or 30 tins, each
containing 16 ozs. HCN – total 30 lbs HCN.

Toxicity

No thoroughly effective pesticide is known to exist which could be
considered to be harmless to
human beings or mammals. Fatal concentrations of HCN impede or
completely cut off the oxygen
supply to the cells. The poison can enter the body in three ways:
through the mouth, the respiratory
organs, or the pores of the skin. The latter will occur in particular if
the body is exposed to high
concentration for any length of time and in unfavourable conditions
(great heat).

Methods

Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building.
The tins are opened, and the
ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the
building. If this is done
correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the
premises. Spaces difficult
to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one
begins with the top floor, and
then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms
already charged. Even
under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas
more than is absolutely
necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the
building; warning notices must be
put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to
prevent unauthorised
persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to
be attacked; for the
destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24
hours will suffice, against
other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there
are any dense stowages or
bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be
extended to 72 hours.

Ventilation

During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes
place in the reverse
direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened
first, then gradually those in
the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15
minutes at a time and then to make
interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning.

Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions,
ventilation will take at
least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before
the end of airing.
Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON
tins and
absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the
resumption of work.

Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 16:14:29 PDT 1996
Article: 45174 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Trolls and Temper Tantrums
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:11:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 5:13:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>Readers of this newsgroup will have noticed some recent automated
>posts by Mr. McCarthy which begin:

> Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
> proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
> until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with
> insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses,

> with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has
> buried any signal that there might have been under an avalanche of
> noise.

>As might have been expected, not unlike the little child whose parents
>have wisely decided to ignore behaviour that is nothing more than
>disruptive attention-seeking, the troll – having long ago worn out his
>welcome and proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that (even if he did
>have something useful to contribute) and whose obviously non-existent
>self-esteem precludes his engaging in civilized factual rational
>discourse – proceeds to throw a major temper tantrum in response:

Give it up, fat broad. You know by now it was a ploy and you know there
is another ploy in place now.

It you were not part of it, you are only a woman and were not consulted.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 16:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45177 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 06:32:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:18:20 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>The following is a translation of a letter from the Bundesarchiv Koblenz.

>>>This translation was taken from “Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945”
>>>(ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p. 169; (Plate 356 with translation.)
>>
>>>—————————————————————————-

>>>Dr. Sigmund Rascher Munich
>>> Trogertr. 56, August 9, 1942

>>>Esteemd Reichsfuhrer!

>[Rascher’s request to use the Dachau gas chamber for testing military
>gases snipped]

>>>—————————————————————————-
>>
>> Now where is the original? It is a major point in that so many of these
>>supposed documents are wind up being unsigned that a mere translation is
>>insufficient to establish anything.

>Federal Archives, Koblenz, Germany. The “Bundesarchiv” if you don’t
>like translations.

>The document was signed by Rascher. We know Rascher’s signature by
>comparison with other incriminating, and some quite non-incriminating,
>documents signed by him.

I am sure.

Post it.

There are enough unauthenticated documents on Nizkor that there is no
reason to accept your claim on this one as it is the same claim Nizkor
makes about their unauthenticated documents.

Nizkor may be undercutting your credibility with their claims but you
will have to take it up with them. However, you may provide the URLs
that support your claim.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 18:07:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PRESSAC IS A LIAR
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:00:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 4:02:34 AM CDT 1996
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Jeff wrote:

>Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the details of the
>visit of SS officer Pohl to Auschwitz:

He is an out of work pharmacist turned holohugger. What did you expect?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 20:22:10 PDT 1996
Article: 45194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:46:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 155
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>Let me get this straight. Every non-referenced assertion is a lie? What
>>is your reference for that assertion? Oh. You didn’t give one. I’ll be
>>darned. (Or are only Faurisson’s assertions to be treated this way?)

>Mr Faurisson’s assertions are insufficient. It is time Mr.
>Faurisson supported them.

It will be even more interesting when your favorite pharmacist does.

>>>We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
>>>and in Lidice if memory serves me right.

>>Why, silly me! You do give your reference–your right serving memory.

>>Jive talk, sir, classic jive talk.

>Here is more “jive talk.” Please _do_ tell us, Brad, how you
>feel about it:

>”The Germans, without precise orders about the methods by
>which to achieve their ends, took their own initiative (as
>they so often were to do during the Holocaust) in devising a
>new course of action. The main synagogue of Bialystok was a
>towering symbol of Jewish life. An impressive squarish stone
>structure crowned with a dome, it was the largest synagogue in
>Poland. Casting about for a way to dispose of the mass of
>assembled Jews under the shadow of this looming testament to
>the life of the Jewish enemy, the Germans adopted a plan to
>destroy both simultaneously — the Jews as well as their
>spiritual and symbolic home — which was a natuaral conclusion
>for their anti-semitically inflamed minds. <31>

Color this prose purple.

The burning of
>synagogues, especially during Kristallnacht, had already
>become a motif of German anti-Jewish action, and, once
>established, it was available to be drawn upon anew as a guide
>to action. Transubstantiating a house of worship into a
>charnel house was an ironic beginning to the campaign that
>these men knew was supposed to end with Jewry’s extinction.

>The men of Police Battalion 309’s First amd Third Companies
>drove their victims into the synagogue, the less complaint
>Jews receiving from the Germans liberal blows of
>encouragement. The Germans packed the large synagogue full.
>The fearful Jews began to chant and pray loudly. After spreading
>gasoline around the building, the Germans set it ablaze; one
>of the men tossed an explosive through a window, to ignite the
>holocaust. The Jews’ prayers turned into screams. A battalion
>member later described the scene that he witnessed: “I saw…
>smoke, that came out of the synagogue and heard there how the
>incarcerated people cried loudly for help. I was about 70
>meters’ distance from the synagogue. I could see the building
>and observed that people tried to escape through the windows.
>One shot at them. Circling the synagogue stood the police
>members who were apparently supposed to cordon it off, in
>order to ensure that no one emerged.”<32> Between 100 and 150
>men of the battalion surrounded the burning synagogue. They
>collectively ensured that none of the appointed Jews escaped
>the inferno. They watched as over seven hundred people died
>this hideous and painful death, listening to screams of agony.
>Most of the victims were men, though some women and children
>were among them.<33> Not surprisingly, some of the Jews within
>spared themselves the fiery death by hanging themselves or
>severing their arteries. At least six Jews came running out of
>the synagogue, their clothes and bodies aflame. The Germans
>shot each one down, only to watch these human torches burn
>themselves out.<34>” (Goldhagen, 189-190)

Lets see. Who is telling this story besides Goldhagen? At least two
people. The second person is 230 feet away. The first person is
unknown.

But that first person sees gasoline be poured outside of a stone
building and an explosive thrown inside to ignite the outside gasoline.

Or perhaps he is saying that an entire synagogue packed full of Jews
lets them pour gasoline around the inside right in front of them.

Of course this is all credible because they were merely helpless victims
and not mensch.

And it is fascinating that there were autopsies to determine the artery
cuttings and hangings.

>Footnotes
>———

><31> For the spontaneity of the Germans’ burning of the
> synagogue, see E.M., Buchs, pp. 1814r-1815

And I wonder where he got this story.

><32> H.S., Buchs, p. 1764

The same story teller.

><33> The court estimates the number to have been at least
> seven hundred (Judgement, Buchs, p. 57). The Indictment puts
>it at a minimum of eight hundred (Buchs, p. 113). Jewish
>sources place the number at around two thousand. A survivor
>estimates that 90 percent of the victims were men and 10
>percent were women and children. See J.S., Buchs, p. 1830;
>also, see I.A., Buchs, p.1835

><34> Judgement, Buchs, p. 56-58. The Germans forced at least
> two Jews, a man and a woman, into the building after it was
>already ablaze.

> Work Cited

>Goldhagen, Daniel Jonah. Hitler’s Willing Executioners. New
>York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996

Who cites someone else who has the testimony of two unidentified people.

The amazing thing is that you actually believe stories like this.

The gorier the better.

>–
>Nizkor Canada – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)……unlearn

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 20:22:11 PDT 1996
Article: 45196 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:52:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:42:43 GMT, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) writes:
>>
>># Whether Peer is a liar or just a very crazy old man, I leave
>># to the speculations of others.
>>
>>For fairness’ sake, one has to remember that he was 11-years-old
>>when liberated from the camp, which probably affected the accuracy
>>of his testimony.

>I suppose that the age when his memories were formed would have an
>effect on what he remembered. The problem, as I understand it, is that
>soem surrvivors have never talked about their experiences because they
>could not bring themselves to relive the horror. In such cases, I can
>well imagine the memories being absolutely reified.

>But I would caution our readers that Peer by himself, or a few dozen
>Peers, take nothing away from the survivors who were able to confront
>their memories, or to testify, or to write about them.

And what criteria did you use to determine they were recounting actual
true events as they actually occurred? None of course. You never
considered the stories critically at any time in you life.

You have lived with completely uncritical acceptance of any and all
stories all of your life.

And you know that.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 20:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45198 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:18:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
>>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
>> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
>>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
>> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
>>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
>>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
>>doing and am going to do.

>I was right. This man is emotionally disturbed. We are obviously witnessing the
>symptoms of an approaching megalomania.

That is what was posted by others. Now they are trying to make some
kind of issue out of it in net abuse.

>> You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
>>and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.
>> Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
>>Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
>>away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
>>know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

>Power fantasies. Taking refuge to the tactics of “cut and paste”, Mr. Giwer manages
>to fool himself into believing that his sheer quantitiy of posts does in any way
>disprove us.

The holohuggers were under the delusion that shear volume and name
calling disproved revisionism. What do you see as the difference?

>> So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
>>simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
>>else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
>>answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
>>aggrandizing in that manner.

>In the computerized existence of Mr. Giwer, this could be understood as the
>equivalent of immortality…

Nizkor did that with there Nazi files on me.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 20:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 45199 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:20:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## A few hours ago, he said it used to be a delousing chamber
>## and that it has cyanide compounds on its outer walls.

># The one at Krema I is the one at Auschwitz. That is
># the one that is a reconstruction. I was referring to Madjdanik
># as were you when this started.

>You’re lying through your teeth. The thread went as follows:

Yes, Danny boy.

>1) You posted an article about the Krema I chamber being
> a “fraud”.

>2) I responded by asking why, if it was a “fraud”, it has
> cyanide traces on its walls.

>3) You responded it has traces on its outside walls as well,
> since it was a delousing chamber.

>4) I asked you for a source for your claim that it has traces
> on its outside walls.

>Then you came up with the Maidanek gas chamber, which was not
>mentioned in this thread at all up to this point.

>But, there’s nothing new about you lying through your teeth. So
>let’s get back to the original question: if the Krema I gas
>chamber is a “fraud”, why does it have cyanide traces on its
>(inside) walls?

Krema I is a reconstruction based upon an artists conception. No one in
their right mind would base anything upon something like that.

>-Danny Keren.

>–
>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
>to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 20:22:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45201 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:18:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > That is simply not true. The first sentence has a grain of truth. The
>> >*extermination* camps were all in Soviet occupied territories. If you define
>> >*death* camps as *extermination* camps you are correct. I know of no-one
>who
>> >defines the term that way.
>>
>> Take it up with Simon Wiesenthal, not me.

> Wrong. He agrees with me.

I was asked for the quote. I gave the quote.

>> > Evidence came from many sources. In fact, the Soviets were
>> >notoriously poor in presenting evidence.
>>
>> They were notoriously famous for fabricating testimony as you know.

> Which is why the Americans and the British insisted on developing their
>own evidence.

You mean like 137 out of 139 witnesses with testicles damaged beyond
repair? That evidence?

Or do you mean like at Belsen where the SS who stayed behind to help the
British were summarily executed? And those that lived were good enough
to say whatever was wanted?

But these were not in Russian liberated areas.

>> There was NO ONE else permitted to investigate anything thing in the
>> territories liberated by the Russians. At best it is based upon second
>> hand information from the Russians.

> You’re wrong. read the report.

Which one? The famous French indictment of infecting people with cancer
and a lot of other things (I will be happy to repost for you) are
specifically referenced as coming from Russian sources.

>> Please tell me which other countries were allowed to review the physical
>> evidence.

> The U.S., the U.K. France.

At no time were independent investigators allowed to roam freely around
those countries. That is what it takes to develop evidence. Nothing
else will do.

It is unclear why you would wish to assert otherwise.

>> Agreed it is. That is what he was charged with and what lead to his
>> conviction. Of course you know that, oh killfile challenged one.

> What I know is that you are lying. What is more you have admitted that
>you tried to find it in a 250K file on Pohl and counld not. Like a six year old caught
>with your hand in the cookie jar, you are now blaming it on someone else.

Just what is it I did not find?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TREBLINKA
From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu
Date: 28 Apr 1996 17:20:06 GMT

TREBLINKA

Wartime Aerial Photos of Treblinka Cast New Doubt on Death Camp Claims

by Mark Weber and Andrew Allen

Treblinka is widely regarded as the second most important German wartime
extermination center. Only Auschwitz-Birkenau is supposed to have
claimed
more lives.

Treblinka became the focus of worldwide attention in 1987-1988 during
the
14-month trial in Jerusalem of John (Ivan) Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian-born
American
factory worker. As Treblinka’s Ivan the Terrible, Demjanjuk
supposedly operated the machinery used to gas hundreds of thousands of
Jews
there. Citing testimony by Jewish survivors, the Israeli court that
condemned
him to death in April 1988 declared that more than 850,000 Jews were
killed
at Treblinka between July 1942 and August 1943.

After the death sentence was handed down, Demjanjuk’s family was able to
discover previously suppressed evidence — much of it from Soviet
Russian
archives — indicating that the real Ivan the Terrible was another
Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko (or Marczenko). This new evidence
discredited
the courtroom testimony of five Jewish camp survivors, each of whom had
positively identified Demjanjuk as the sadistic mass murderer
of Treblinka. (note 1)

As historians know, and as common sense would suggest, such decades-old
testimony is far less trustworthy than contemporary records or forensic
evidence. (note 2)

And yet, Treblinka’s reputation as a mass extermination center is based
almost entirely on precisely such subjective and unprovable testimony by
former prisoners — evidence that has proven to be notoriously
unreliable
in several major trials of alleged Nazi war criminals. (note
3)

There is no documentary evidence that Treblinka was an extermination
center.
In fact, contemporary records suggest that the camp had a very different
function.

Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka death
camp site — and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives
in Washington, DC — cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story
that
it was a mass extermination center.

Discovered in 1989, and published here for the first time in the United
States, these German reconnaissance photos corroborate other evidence
indicating
that Treblinka was actually a transit camp. (note 4)

These photographs indicate that the remarkably small camp was not
isolated,
or even particularly well guarded. (They clearly show that fields where
Polish farmers planted and cultivated crops were directly adjacent to
the
camp perimeter.)

Moreover, the camp’s burial area quite obviously appears too small to
contain
the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly buried there. (Casting
doubt
on the widely accepted story of hundreds of thousands of Treblinka
victims,
these photos suggest instead that only those deportees who died during
the
sometimes protracted rail journey to the camp were buried there.)
‘Steam Chambers’
The generally accepted story today is that hundreds of thousands of Jews
were killed at Treblinka in gas chambers with poisonous exhaust from
engines.
But the original Treblinka extermination story was that Jews
were steamed to death there in steam chambers.

According to an eyewitness account received in November 1942
in London from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were
exterminated
in death rooms at Treblinka with steam coming out of the
numerous holes in the pipes. (note 5) In August 1943, the New York
Times reported that two million Jews had already been killed at
Treblinka
by steaming them to death. (note 6)

The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of
Polish
Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and sponsored by
Albert Einstein, Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York
Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and other personalities. (note 7) Another
book,
Lest We Forget, published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish
Congress,
describes in detail how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a
diagram

showing the location of the purported boiler room that produced
the live steam. (note 8)

According to a 1944 eyewitness account compiled by the OSS,
the principle US intelligence agency, Jews at Treblinka were in general
killed by steam and not by gas as had been at first suspected. (note
9)

At the main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, two conflicting stories were
given:
steaming and gassing. Former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified
that Jews were killed there in gas chambers. (note 10) (To confuse
matters
still more, a few months earlier Rajzman claimed that during the time he
was in Treblinka, Jews were suffocated to death there with a
machine that pumped air out of death chambers.) (note 11)

American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam
story.
As proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was
submitted
as prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the
camp by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers. This report,
which says nothing about poison gas killings, was published in the
official
Nuremberg trial record as document PS-3311. (note 12) An American
prosecutor
quoted from this report during his address to the Tribunal on December
14,
1945. (note 13)

Although no reputable historian now supports the steam story,
and little has been heard of it during the last several decades, it was
revived in a widely-circulated booklet published in 1979 and 1985 by the
influential Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. (note 14)

There may have been a factual basis for the steam chamber stories.
It is quite possible that there was indeed some kind of steaming
operation
at Treblinka — but one designed to kill disease-carrying lice, not
people.
Such disinfection steaming was commonly used in German camps for Allied
prisoners of war. (note 15)

Shortly after the war, the World Jewish Congress published The Black
Book,
a 559-page volume of real and imagined wartime atrocities against Jews.
At Treblinka alone, the book alleges, three million persons were killed.
Three diabolical techniques, including poison gas and steam, were
supposedly
used there to kill some 10,000 Jews daily. But the most widespread
method consisted of pumping all the air out from the chambers with
large special pumps. (note 16) A former inmate testified shortly after
the war that Treblinka’s victims were poisoned by the different gasses
or asphyxiated when the chamber was turned into a vacuum and all the air
sucked out. (note 17)

In the Nuremberg trial of Oswald Pohl, U.S. Judge Michael A. Musmanno
declared
that death was inflicted here [at Treblinka] by gas and steam, as
well as by electric current. Citing Nuremberg document PS-3311, Musmanno
declared: After being filled up to capacity the chambers were
hermetically
closed and steam was let in. (note 18)

Adolf Eichmann, the wartime head of the SS Jewish affairs section, said
in 1961 during pre-trial interrogation in Israel that during the war he
was told that Jews were gassed at Treblinka with potassium
cyanide. (note 19)

One of the strangest Treblinka extermination stories, which appeared in
September 1942 in a Polish underground periodical, claimed that Jews
were
killed there with a delayed action gas: (note 20)
H2>BLOCKQUOTE>They enter it [the gas chamber] in groups of 300-500
people.
Each group is immediately closed hermetically inside, and gassed. The
gas
does not affect them immediately, because the Jews still have to
continue
on to the pits that are a few dozen meters away, and whose depth is 30
meters.
There they fall unconscious, and a digger covers them with a thin layer
of earth. Then another group arrives. H2>/BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the testimony of yet another eyewitness, a Jew
named Oskar Berger who escaped from the camp, many Jews were
systematically
put to death at Treblinka by shooting them with rifle and machine-gun
fire.
(note 21)
Diesel Gassing
In recent years, the most widely-circulated story has been that Jews
were
gassed at Treblinka with carbon monoxide from the exhaust of a diesel
engine.
(note 22)

However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established, this story
is improbable for technical reasons. (note 23) In spite of the obnoxious
odor of diesel exhaust, diesel engines produce much smaller quantities
of
toxic carbon monoxide than ordinary gasoline motors. (note 24) It would
thus be difficult efficiently to gas large numbers of people using
diesel
exhaust. A normal gasoline engine would be much more logical. (note 25)

It is important to keep in mind that the evidence now usually
cited for diesel gassing at Treblinka is no more credible than the
evidence
that was once presented for steaming and suffocating. Apparently the
steaming
and suffocating stories have been dropped for the sake of credible
consistency.

Solid evidence for gassings at Treblinka has proven to be very elusive.
For example, it turned out that none of the witnesses in the 1951 West
German
Treblinka court case ever actually saw anyone being gassed.
The type of gas used to kill the people there [Treblinka] cannot be
determined with certainty because none of the witnesses was able to
witness
this procedure, the judges declared in their verdict. (note 26)

At least some former Treblinka prisoners testified in postwar West
German
trials that they not only never saw a gas chamber, but did not even hear
about gassings from others. (note 27)

Holocaust historians today are not able to agree about the number of
homicidal
gas chambers at Treblinka. Raul Hilberg maintains that there
were three at first, but because they were allegedly not adequate for
the
job, more were built later on. There were eventually six or perhaps ten
chambers, he reports. (note 28) Others have reported the existence of 13
gas chambers at Treblinka. (note 29)
Bomba’s Testimony
One of the most memorable testimonies about Treblinka presented in
Shoah,
the nine-and-a-half-hour Holocaust film by French Jewish film maker
Claude
Lanzmann, is that of Abraham Bomba. He told how he and other Jewish
barbers
cut the hair of the naked Jews who were about to be gassed. They worked
inside the gas chamber (he always spoke of one chamber), which
was around four by four meters (about 12 feet by 12 feet). Bomba
also reported that 140 or 150 women, with children, as well
as 16 or 17 barbers, were inside this small room. In addition, there
were
benches where the women sat while their hair was cut, as well as two or
more German guards.

The barbers had to leave the chamber for five minutes while the victims
were gassed, Bomba said, and it took just one minute to clear out the
140
or so corpses, and clean the floor and walls, before everything was
ready
for the next batch of victims. (note 30)

Bomba’s moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called
the
most stunning in this shattering film, is simply not credible.
Treblinka Labor Camp
About one mile (1.5 km) from the extermination camp, which was
known as Treblinka II, was a penal labor camp for Poles and
Jews known as Treblinka I. It was not at all secret. The 1941
directive announcing the establishment of the Treblinka Labor Camp
was published in both Polish and German in widely distributed official
journals.
(note 31) Poles and Jews worked in a large sand and gravel quarry at the
Treblinka labor camp. (note 32)

As wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs clearly show, the Treblinka
T-I labor camp was located at the end of the rail spur on which the
Treblinka
T-II extermination (transit) camp was also located. This fact
strengthens the thesis that the T-II camp was not particularly secret,
since
penal labor prisoners being taken by train to and from the publicly
known
T-I camp passed directly by the supposedly top secret T-II extermination
camp. (note 33)
Documentary Evidence
Documents found after the war confirm that large numbers of Jews were
deported
to Treblinka in 1942 and 1943. German railway records report the
transfer
of trainloads of settlers (Umsiedler) and workers
to Treblinka from various places in Poland and from other countries.
(note
34)

In July 1942, a senior German railway official reported to the chief of
Himmler’s personal staff that 5,000 Jews were being transported daily to
Treblinka. (note 35) An August 3, 1942, German Ostbahn railway
directive similarly reported that special trains would be carrying
resettlers
>from Warsaw to Treblinka daily, until further notice. (note 36)

Interestingly, it was not until September 1, 1942, that the Treblinka
train
station was closed to passenger rail travel by the general public (to
permit a smooth handling of the special resettlement trains), which
suggests that German officials were not particularly concerned with
keeping
the deportations or the station secret. (note 37)

Other records mention trains to Treblinka in March 1943 from Vienna,
Bulgaria
and Greece. (note 38) From Vienna and Luxembourg, Jews reportedly
arrived
at the camp in passenger train coaches, and the deportees were given
food
and medical care during their journey. (note 39) In at least one case, a
train with sleeping cars and a dining car arrived at Treblinka. (note
40)

German railway records have been cited as evidence that hundreds of
thousands
of Jews were exterminated at Treblinka. (note 41) While there is little
doubt that these documents are genuine, and that they confirm transports
of Jews to Treblinka, they are not proof of an extermination program.
(note
42)
Transit Camp
If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? As already
mentioned,
the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II — along with Belzec
and Sobibor — was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were stripped
of their property and valuables before being transferred eastwards into
German-occupied Soviet territories. (note 43)

The generally-accepted story is that Treblinka II was a pure
extermination center, from which no Jew was permitted to leave alive.
(note
44) However, credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka
refute
the allegation that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination,
and indicate instead that the camp functioned as a transit center.

In the aftermath of the April 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising, for example,
Jews were transported from Warsaw to Treblinka II. As some of the
deportees
later confirmed, after a selection in the camp, trainloads of
hundreds of Jews were taken from Treblinka to Lublin (Majdanek), and
possibly
other camps. (note 45) Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred
by German authorities from Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German
court
determined. (note 46)

Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who,
by
all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was
a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet
territories.
These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus
(Byelorussia),
Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews
who
had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail
and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the
senders
were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children)
were
being fed. (note 47)

Completely contrary to its supposed character as a top secret
extermination
center, Treblinka was neither secret nor even closely guarded, as both
former
inmates and officials have confirmed. Secrecy? Good heavens, there
was no secrecy about Treblinka, Jewish prisoner Richard Glazer later
testified. All the Poles between there and Warsaw must have known
about it, and lived off the proceeds. All the peasants came to barter,
the
Warsaw whores did business with the Ukrainians — it was a circus for
all
of them. Polish farmers worked the fields that directly adjoined the
camp. And many others, said Jewish survivor Berek Rojzman, came
to the fence to barter, mostly with the Ukrainians, but with us too.
(note 48)

Even regular German concentration camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald
were
much more closely guarded than Treblinka. As already mentioned, aerial
reconnaissance
photographs taken in 1944 confirm that the area around Treblinka was not
cleared. The photos show that one perimeter of the camp passed through a
wooded area, and that cultivated fields where Polish farmers worked were
directly adjacent to the camp perimeter. (note 49)
How Many Victims?
Shortly after the end of the war, the World Jewish Congress and at least
one former Treblinka prisoner alleged that more than three million Jews
had been exterminated there. (note 50) More recent estimates of the
number
of people allegedly killed at Treblinka range from between 700,000 (Leon
Poliakov and Uwe Adam), 750,000 (Raul Hilberg and Encyclopaedia
Judaica),
870,000 (Yitzhak Arad), to more than 900,000 (Wolfgang Scheffler and
Washington
Post). (note 51)

There is no documentary or physical evidence for any of these figures,
which
are simply conjectural estimates.
Layout and Size
Diagrams published in recent years that show Treblinka as a neatly
organized,
rectangular-shaped camp are not accurate. (note 52) As already
mentioned,
though, wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs confirm that the
Treblinka
II camp was actually unsymmetrically four-sided and irregularly shaped.
(note 53)

One of the most remarkable features of the Treblinka death camp
is its small size. The entire Treblinka II camp area was only 32 or 33
acres
(13 hectares), or about onetwentieth of a square mile. (note 54) Even
smaller
was the alleged extermination area of the camp, which was 200
by 250 meters in size (or five hectares) according to purportedly
authoritative
sources. (note 55)

Poland’s Central Commission announced shortly after the war
that the burial or ditches area where the bodies of Treblinka’s
victims were buried (before they were supposedly later dug up for
burning)
was about two hectares or five acres (or some 20,235 square meters).
(note
56) And according to a diagram in a book about Treblinka by Jewish
Holocaust
historian Alexander Donat, the camp’s ditches area was not more
than 80 or 100 meters in length and about 50 meters wide — that is, a
maximum
of 5,000 square meters or half a hectare. (note 57)

By comparison, the mass graves area in the Katyn forest (near Smolensk),
which held the bodies of some 4,500 Polish officers who had been killed
by Soviet secret police and buried there in 1940, measured about 500
square
meters. (note 58)

In short, it is very difficult to accept that anything like 700,000 or
800,000
bodies could have been buried in the minuscule area allegedly set aside
at Treblinka for this purpose.
Cremation Inconsistencies
Between April and July 1943, the corpses of Treblinka’s hundreds of
thousands
of victims were allegedly dug up from the burial pits and burned with
dry
wood and branches on grids made of rails in batches of 2,000 or 2,500.
The residual ash and bits of bone were dumped back into the
burial pits, and covered with a layer of sand and dirt two meters deep.
This was done, it is said, in order to eliminate the physical evidence
of
mass extermination. (note 59)

Although enormous amounts of fuel would have been needed to cremate the
hundreds of thousands of alleged corpses, there is no documentary record
or witness recollection of the great quantities of firewood that would
have
been required. According to Polish-Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach,
fuel
to burn bodies was not needed at Treblinka because the bodies of woman,
which had more fat, were used to kindle, or more accurately put, to
build the fires among the piles of corpses. Even more incredible,
blood, too, was found to be first-class combustion material,
she wrote. (note 60)
Missing Remains
A wartime Warsaw ghetto internee, Dr. Adolf Berman, testified in the
1961
Eichmann trial that he visited the Treblinka camp site shortly after the
Soviet occupation of Poland. He told the Jerusalem court that he saw an
area of several square kilometers covered with bones and skulls, and
nearby
tens upon tens of thousands of shoes, many of them children’s shoes.
(note 61)

Berman’s testimony, which was considered one of the most emotionally
moving
of the Eichmann trial, is completely inconsistent with known facts. For
one thing, the entire Treblinka camp was much smaller than one square
kilometer
in size, and no other witness has confirmed the presence of tens of
thousands of shoes.

Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish
commission
that inspected the camp site in November 1945 — that is, a few months
after
the end of the war — reported finding large human bones, rotted masses
of corpses, pieces of half-rotted corpses, and fully
dressed corpses, at the Treblinka camp site. (note 62)

In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located,
the
commission’s team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human
remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount
of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point
the
digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit
reveals
some large bones. (note 63)

Poland’s Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes
reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which
are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues,
were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an
examination
of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)

The presence of uncremated human remains is not consistent with the
often-repeated
allegation that all such remains were thoroughly destroyed.
Significantly,
none of the Polish reports specifies the quantity of human remains, the
numbers of corpses, or the amount of ash found at the camp site, which
suggests
that evidence of hundreds of thousands of victims was not found. (note
65)

In spite of its often inconsistent, contradictory and implausible
character,
testimony indicating that many Jews lost their lives at Treblinka cannot
easily be dismissed. Many Jewish prisoners doubtless perished during
their
rail journey to the camp site, and were almost certainly buried there.
Furthermore,
it is plausible and even likely that hundreds and perhaps thousands of
Jews
who were too weak or ill to continue the eastbound journey from the camp
were killed there by officials acting on their own authority.

All the same, there is no hard or compelling evidence that Treblinka was
a mass extermination center where hundreds of thousands of Jews were
systematically
put to death. To the contrary, credible reports of transfers of Jews
from
Treblinka eastwards to the occupied Soviet territories, the relative
lack
of secrecy and security in the camp, and the small size of the area
where
the bodies were supposedly buried, all suggest instead that this was a
transit
center.
Notes0H2>/H2>


  1. F. Dannen, How Terrible is Ivan?, Vanity Fair (New York),
    June 1992, pp. 132 ff. New Evidence: Demjanjuk a Nazi Guard, Probably
    Not ‘Ivan’, Los Angeles Times, January 16, 1992. C. Haberman, Soviet
    Files Are Presented… , The New York Times, June 2, 1992, p. A6.
  2. On the unreliability of such testimony, see John Cobden’s review of
    Witness for the Defense (by E. Loftus and K. Ketcham) in The Journal of
    Historical Review, Summer 1991, pp. 238-249. Samuel Gringauz, a Jewish
    historian who was himself interned in the Kaunas ghetto during the war,
    wrote: Most of the memoirs and reports [of Holocaust survivors] are
    full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic
    effects,
    overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
    lyricism,
    unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies. (Jewish Social
    Studies, New York, January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.).
  3. On the unreliability of such eyewitness testimony in the
    illustrative case of Frank Walus, who was falsely accused of murdering
    Jews
    as a Gestapo officer in Poland, see, for example, The Nazi Who Never
    Was, The Washington Post, May 10, 1981, pp. B5, B8.
  4. These aerial reconnaissance photos are on file in the National
    Archives
    (Washington, DC), Cartographic Division (Record Group 373).
  5. Several of these reconnaissance photos were published in Germany in
    1990 by Udo Walendy in the booklet Der Fall Treblinka, Historische
    Tatsachen, Nr. 44, 1990. (Postfach 1643, D-4973 Vlotho, Germany). See
    especially
    pages 13, 31, 34, 35, 38. In this booklet, Walendy cites specific
    archival
    source references from the US National Archives for these photographs.
    Unfortunately,
    these specific references are not always quite accurate. The specific
    source
    references cited by Walendy are:
    GX 12225 (or 122225?), Exp. 257 (and 258, 259?). (November or May 1944)

    GX 180 D F 934/44 SK , Exp. 246 (May 18, 1944)
    GX 12299 B A -2249, Exp. 014 (July 10, 1944)
    GX 72 F 933/44 SK, Exp. 139, 140 (May 13, 1944)
    GX 1946 F 2926 /44 SK, Exp. 062 (Sept. 18, 1944)
    GX 937 F 13 A 6099, Exp. 74
    GX 12250 F 2795 SK, Exp. 045 (Sept. 2, 1944)
    GX 12290 F 3086 SK r 2600, Exp. 68 (Oct. 16, 1944)
    GX 1946 / 44 SD, Exp. 076.
    GX 12373, Exp. 11 (Sept. 2, 1944)
    The most important of these Treblinka aerial photographs were made
    public
    for the first time in the United States in January 1991 at a meeting in
    Palo Alto, California. (IHR Newsletter, Feb. 1991, p. 3.).

  6. We gratefully acknowledge the assistance of the Polish Historical
    Society
    (Stamford, Connecticut) in compiling this essay.
  7. Soviet wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs of the Treblinka
    camp
    site almost certainly exist, and are very probably still held in Russian
    archives. If so, they should be made public.
  8. Likwidacja zydowskiej Warszawy, Treblinka, Biuleytn Zydowskiego
    Instytutu Historycznego (Warsaw), Jan.-June 1951, pp. 93-100. Quoted in:
    Carlo Mattogno, The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews, The
    Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 273-274, 295 (n. 16).
  9. New York Times, Aug. 8, 1943, p. 11. Reprinted in: The Record: The
    Holocaust
    in History (New York: ADL, 1985), p. 10. (The Record was also
    distributed
    as an advertising supplement to the New York Post, April 17, 1978.)
  10. Jacob Apenszlak, ed., The Black Book of Polish Jewry (New York:
    1943),
    pp. 142-143, 145.
  11. World Jewish Congress, Lest We Forget (New York: 1943), pp. 4, 6-7.
    See also the reference to killings at Treblinka by hot steam
    in Hitler’s Ten-Year War On the Jews (p. 149), a book published in New
    York
    in 1943 by the Institute of Jewish Affairs, an agency of the
    American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress.
  12. OSS document, April 13, 1944. National Archives (Washington, DC),
    Military
    Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records), No. 67231.
  13. International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals
    Before
    the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg: 1947-1949, (blue
    series),
    Vol. 8, p. 325. (Feb. 27, 1946)
  14. Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967),
    p. 130. This story also appears in: Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New
    York: 1982), p. 263.
  15. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International
    Military
    Tribunal (IMT blue series/ 1947-1949), vol. 32, pp. 153-158
    Also published in: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression (NC&A red series/
    1946-1948), Vol. 5, pp. 1104-1108. See also: NC&A (red series),
    vol. 1, pp. 1005-1006.
  16. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals (blue series), vol.
    3, p. 567-568.
  17. The Record: The Holocaust in History. (The NYT report of Aug. 8,
    1943,
    is reproduced here.)
  18. Major S. G. Cowper, A Note on a Disinfestation Plant Used in a
    Typhus Hospital for Prisoners of War in Germany, Journal of the Royal
    Army Medical Corps, Sept. 1946, Vol. 87, No. 3, pp. 173-176. Typhus,
    1922 supplement to Encyclopaedia Britannica. Facsimile reprint in:
    Carlos
    Porter, Made in Russia (1988), p. 364. Globocnik reported in Jan. 1944
    that textile goods seized in the course of Aktion Reinhardt
    were disinfected. See: 4024-PS. IMT blue series, vol. 34, p.
    84. Jacob Seewald, a Polish Jew, spent the war years working as a
    forester
    in a German labor camp. When he came down with a severe illness, he was
    transferred to a hospital, where he recovered. After the war he
    emigrated
    to the United States. In a 1983 interview, he recalled that the camp
    authorities
    took us [Jewish workers] into a shower for the steam to kill lice.
    There we got no clothes, just a bundle with our names on them. Naked.
    Then
    they turn on the water for a second — scalding water. (John C. Bromely,
    Stories from the Darkness, The Denver Post Magazine, Sunday,
    June 12, 1983, p. 20.) Similar events at Treblinka may perhaps have
    provided
    a basis for the camp’s steam legend.
  19. Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (1946), pp. 407-408.
  20. Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p. 263.
  21. Trials of the War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals
    (NMT green series/ Washington, DC: 1949-1953), vol. 5, pp. 1133-1134.
  22. Jochen von Lang, ed., Eichmann Interrogated (New York: 1983), p. 84.
    See also: R. Aschenauer, ed., Ich, Adolf Eichmann (1980), pp. 179, 183.
  23. Information Bulletin, Sept. 8, 1942, published by the command
    of the Polish underground Armia Krajowa. Quoted in: Yitzhak
    Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (Bloomington: 1987), pp. 353 f.
  24. E. Kogon, Theory and Practice of Hell (New York: Berkley, pb.,
    1981),
    pp. 183-185.
  25. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (New York: 1985),
    p. 878. Treblinka, Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), vol. 15, p.
    1368. Eugen Kogon, et al., Nationalsozialistische Massent&oumltungen
    (1986),
    p. 163 Yitzhak Arad, Treblinka, in: I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia
    of the Holocaust, pp. 1483, 1484.
  26. F. Berg, The Diesel Gas Chambers, The Journal of Historical
    Review, Spring 1984, pp. 15-46.
  27. R. Schmidt, A. Carey, and R. Kamo, Exhaust Characteristics of
    the Automotive Diesel, Society of Automotive Engineers Transactions
    (New York), Vol. 75, Sec. 3, 1967, pp. 106, 107. (paper 660550).
  28. Even more logical and efficient than a gasoline engine — in the
    view
    of engineer Friedrich Berg — would have been the Holzgas generator,
    which were in very widespread use in Europe during the war years. See:
    F.
    Berg, The Diesel Gas Chambers, The Journal of Historical Review,
    Spring 1984, pp. 38-41.
  29. Case against J. Hirtreiter, LG Frankfurt, 1951. Justiz und
    NS-Verbrechen
    (Amsterdam: 1972), Band 8, p. 264 (270 a-4).
  30. Hans Peter Rullmann, Der Fall Demjanjuk (Sonnenb&uumlhl: 1987), p.
    149. Source cited: Adalbert R&uumlckerl, NS-Vernichtungslager (1977).
    An unsatisfactory explanation has been offered for this remarkable
    testimony:
    these witnesses must have been inmates of the nearby Treblinka labor
    camp,
    or for some other reason were never in the extermination section
    of the T-II camp.
  31. R. Hilberg, Destruction (1985), p. 879.
  32. Central Commission…, German Crimes in Poland (Warsaw: 1946-1947),
    vol. 1, p. 97. Yitzhak Arad, Treblinka, in: I. Gutman, ed.,
    Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, pp. 1483, 1485.
  33. Shoah (Paris: Fayard, 1985), pp. 126-129. (I am thankful to Dr.
    Faurisson
    for pointing this out.) See also: Bradley R. Smith, Shoah: Abraham
    Bomba, the Barber, The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1986,
    pp. 244-253.
  34. Directive of Nov. 15, 1941. Amtsblatt f&uumlr den Distrikt Warschau,
    Dec. 16, 1941, p. 116. Facsimile reproduction in: S. Wojtczak, Karny

    WALTER FUNK Funk was a classical pianist from a highly respected
    artistic family, married for 25 years at the time of the trial,
    and former financial editor. Like most of the defendants, Funk
    was accused of performing “immoral acts” such as accepting
    birthday gifts from Hitler, proving “willing participation in the
    Common Plan”. (Obviously, such acts are not illegal.)Funk claimed
    that the British and the Poles had conspired to provoke Germany
    into war in the belief that the generals would overthrow Hitler
    (XIII 111-112 <<125-126>>).

    Funk was accused of conspiring with the SS to murder
    concentration camp inmates in order to finance the war effort by
    pulling their teeth out. The gold teeth were stored in a vault at
    the Reichsbank, along with shaving kits, fountain pens, large
    alarm clocks, and other more or less useless junk. Forgotten was
    Rudolf Hoess’s testimony that the teeth were melted at Auschwitz
    (XI 417 <<460>>).

    Funk testified that the amounts and kinds of loot were “absurd”
    and pointed out that the SS acted as customs police and enforced
    exchange control regulations, including a prohibition against the
    ownership of gold, silver, and foreign coins or currency. It was
    quite natural that the SS should confiscate large amounts of
    valuables, and that the SS, as a government agency, should have
    financial accounts, and that these accounts would contain
    valuables. Germans kept valuables in the same vaults as well, to
    whic h the Reichsbank had no access, since they were private
    safety deposit accounts. With the increased bombing raids, more
    and more valuables were deposited in the vaults by ordinary
    German citizens. Finally, after a particularly damaging raid on
    the bank, the valuables were removed to a potassium mine in
    Thuringen. The Americans found the valuables there, and falsified
    a film of it. Funk and his attorney showed the falsity of the
    film using an opposing witness, in some of the shrewdest
    testimony and cros s exa mination in the entire trial (XIII 169
    <<189-190>>, 203-204 <<227-228>>, 562-576 <<619- 636>>; XXI
    233-245 <<262-275>>).

    Also given short shrift was the ridiculous Oswald Pohl affidavit,
    Document 4045-PS, in which Funk was accused of discussing the use
    of gold teeth from dead Jews to finance the war at a dinner party
    attended by dozens of people, including waiters (XVIII 220-263
    <<245-291>>).

    This affidavit is in German and is witnessed by Robert Kempner.
    Pohl was later convicted of”steaming” people to death in 10
    “steam chambers” at Treblinka, and making doormats out of their
    hair (NMT IV 1119-1152) (Fourth National Military Tribunal,
    Nuremberg).

    Funk believed, like other defendants, that crimes had occurred,
    but maintained that he knew nothing about it. His belief that
    crimes had occurred does not, in itself, prove that that belief
    was true.

    >> > You have the mind and manner of a six-year-old trying to stay up past
    >> >his bedtime, Matty-poo. I address six year olds as six year olds, not as adults.
    >> >Apparently you admit that your former co-workers had a similarly negative
    >opinion
    >> >of your behavior.
    >>
    >> As all you have left is juvenile ridicule in the face of being shown
    >> that your favorite beliefs are nonsense, I am not surprised by this
    >> resopnse.

    > No this is my analysis of your behavior. I note that those whop worked
    >with you at NAVSEA tend to agree. By the way did they really call you by your
    >nick-name to your face?

    Nice try. Name a few of them. What do you have to lose by naming them?

    >> If you had a substantive reply you would make it.

    > I have. You are a liar.

    After you have read the above which contain the references perhaps you
    will simply ignore them again, oh killfile challenged one.

    From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 23:04:38 PDT 1996
    Article: 45211 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:12:41 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
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    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

    >> Ah, statistics!
    >>
    >> It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
    >> of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
    >> and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
    >> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
    >> and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
    >> default. (Graber made me do it!!)

    >You’ve missed the point. Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
    >declared their intentions to be:

    > making this a “spam conference” [1];

    I use them as rotating sigs, they are not the message. But of course
    you would rather misrepresent it as otherwise.

    > responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];

    Not in the least.

    > posting under fake names to dodge peoples’ killfiles [3];

    Excuse me, but what fake names have I used? You mean it would improper
    to use Marduk? Where were you then?

    > or, my favorite:

    > “making it” (this newsgroup) “useless” to anyone who would
    > challenge revisionist dogma [4].

    But that is what you folks have deliberately done for years and have
    bragged about doing it. So what can you possibly be complaining about?

    You folks have been the thought control freaks and you folks are quite
    proud of it.

    >They do not proudly refer to their postings as “barrages” [5]. They do
    >not brag about being able to “make this conference do anything they
    >want” [6].

    >But I guess that must have slipped your mind.

    >In short, the difference is that McVay and Keren are not flagrant
    >net abusers. The statistics are not about whether Mr. Giwer _is_ a
    >flagrant net abuser; they are only reports on how _successful_ he is.

    I have read more of Keren’s repetative crap than I have ever posted.

    The malicious little mantra has been posted thousands of times.

    Where were you then?

    Why are you only doing your stuck pig impression now?

    >1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
    >2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/the-longer-my-tagline
    >3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02
    >4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless
    >5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/five-day-barrage
    >6. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.01

    >Just for kicks, I ran the script on them anyway, for June 1st – 15th.

    >Mr. McVay is certainly the most prolific anti-denier poster to this
    >newsgroup (or he was last time I checked). He maintains the official
    >FAQ and his crontab regularly posts files selected from his archives.
    >He’s frequently insulted by the Nazi-types who cross-post from
    >alt.politics.nationalism.white, so his “mention” rating should be fairly
    >high. (Though, to be fair, their misspellings of his name — “McOyVay”
    >– wouldn’t have been picked up by the script. 🙂

    >You’ll recall that Giwer’s statistics have been rising steadily this
    >month, reaching about 21% of the articles posted in alt.revisionism,
    >with mentions of him hitting about 26%.

    >Mr. McVay: 4.8% / 6.0%. He’s the most prolific, remember.

    >Dr. Keren: 2.8% / 3.0%. That includes an uncharacteristically large
    >number of posts on the 14th, a collection of SS testimonies which had
    >been posted separately over the last few years but never collected
    >together in one series.

    Perhaps they are not as dedicated to permitting alternative ideas to be
    published as they are.

    >To put it graphically, here would be the bar charts for the last week:

    >MCVAY

    >Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFM
    >Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
    >Jun 13: FFMM
    >Jun 12: FFFFFFFFMMM
    >Jun 11: FFFFFFFMMMM
    >Jun 10: FFFFFFFMMM
    > Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFMM

    >KEREN

    >Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
    >Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMM
    >Jun 13: M
    >Jun 12: FF
    >Jun 11: FFFFFFF
    >Jun 10:
    > Jun 9:

    >GIWER

    >Jun 15: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
    >Jun 14: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
    >Jun 13: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMM
    >Jun 12: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
    >Jun 11: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMM
    >Jun 10: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

    >Do you see the difference, “DvdThomas”?

    Dedication to freedom of speech without permitting people who disagree
    to be run out of the conference.

    >Posted; cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc. Please redirect
    >followups to whichever group is most appropriate.

    >Not emailed to “DvdThomas,” because he has said he doesn’t care to
    >receive email from me. Not emailed to Matt Giwer, because he has
    >said he doesn’t care to receive email from me.

    Quite correct. That is one of the earliest forms of harrassment you
    folks used. And after I explained what the problem was you folks chose
    to spam the conference with messages about that.

    Speaking of spamming, why is it OK when you folks do it?

    From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 23:04:39 PDT 1996
    Article: 45216 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:45:46 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 35
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:47:51 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

    >>In article <[email protected]>,
    >>[email protected] whines:
    >>
    >> The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers
    >> and a boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by
    >> means of pipes to the chambers. There are terracota floors in
    >> the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims
    >> had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
    >> afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first,
    >> were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak
    >> to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and
    >> kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed
    >> forward and stumbled over them. Small children were simply
    >> thrown inside. After being filled up to capacity the chambers
    >> were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
    >> all was over.
    >>
    >> IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.
    >>
    >>It is good to see that Mr. Giwer can recognize and support
    >>the truth ocassionally.

    >I don’t think he realizes it when he makes such a boo-boo.

    It is good to see you support the long discarded nonsense about steaming
    people to death at Treblinka.

    But don’t worry, no holohugger will correct you, even those who are
    claiming there was never any such evidence presented at the IMT.

    From [email protected] Fri Jun 21 23:04:39 PDT 1996
    Article: 45217 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Monty Python strikes again
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:46:13 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 78
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:48:20 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison said:

    >>
    >>[email protected] wrote:
    >>>
    >>> “He’s a Nazi! A Nazi!”
    >>>
    >>> “And how do you know he is a Nazi?”
    >>>
    >>> “He gassed me and burned me up.”
    >>>
    >>> Quizzical look.
    >>>
    >>> “I got better.”

    >>Oh I’m a trolling Giwer and I’m okay
    >>I lie all night and I lie all day

    >>I make up quotes, I rant and rave
    >>I don’t know history
    >>People catch my lying
    >>So I just turn around and flee

    >>Oh he’s a trolling moron and he’s a twit
    >>All he ever does is try to cause some shit

    >>I fudge the facts and make statements bold
    >>And hope no one will check
    >>That my carefully crafted logic
    >>Is all a load of dreck

    >>Oh he’s a trolling lowlife and he’s a worm
    >>Catch him in a lie and watch him squirm

    >>I’m an expert of anthropology
    >>Engineering and the law
    >>Too bad my sources all say
    >>That I have diarrhea of the jaw

    >>Oh he’s a trolling Giwer and he’s a pain
    >>Tommorrow he posts the same lies again

    >>Oh he’s a trolling Giwer and he’s a jerk…

    >An absolute classic.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: No fuel needed
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

    “MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
    check at each
    one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
    …. When the last one was in,
    the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
    had set in, the
    ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
    doors were opened, and the
    Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
    they were burned in the
    open air without the use of fuel. ”
    IMT XX – p. 494.

    More Nazi physics at work.

    I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

    On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
    do this?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:51 PDT 1996
    Article: 45225 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:30:51 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 50
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:32:59 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:

    > Matty Poo stamps his foot:

    A baby talking attorney. Want to have this posted all over your
    community as an example of the arguemenatative skills?

    Ve keep files on people like you, just like Nizkor.

    >> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
    >> conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
    >> will get down to cases on my terms.

    > There are some of us Matty-poo, who insist on some qualities of which you
    >are entirely ignorant.

    Ve vill notify the Pennsylvania Bar Association that this message is
    available for downloading.

    > Start with honesty: you are a liar.

    > Start with knowledge: you have very little.

    > Start with intergrity: you have none.

    Ve vill expose you to your professional community for the shit you are.

    >> There is nothing in between.

    > You are wrong.

    Ve vill vork to destroy you professionally by exposing your posts.

    >> I hope you folks come to understand this.

    > I hope you come to understand that I take someone who makes up his
    >version of the world out of whole cloth seriously.

    > You are a joke. A malninent one to be sure, but still a joke.

    Ve haf von. You have exposed yourself as a babytalking azzhole.

    Ve rrrrest ourrr case.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:52 PDT 1996
    Article: 45226 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s crocodile tears
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 03:25:24 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 35
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:27:29 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >DvdThomas, we’re still waiting for you to at least comment on
    >Zuendel’s pro-censorship stance. As co-webmaster at the Committee
    >for Open Debate On the Holocaust, “Open Debate” being the operative
    >words, it seems a bit odd that you tolerate censors as your allies.

    >Now back to your regularly scheduled Zuendeldiscussion…

    >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

    >> Ken McVay wrote, of Ernst Zuendel’s acquittal on appeal:
    >>
    >> > In the first case – the “publishing false news” case,
    >> > he was clearly guilty – two juries said so. That the law was
    >> > later thrown out does not change the jury findings.

    >[…]

    >> This is an interesting interpretation of the Western system of justice. I
    >> think it’s called sophistry, albeit unwitting. So all successful
    >> appellants are, in your eyes, guilty as charged. That’s more than a
    >> little scary.

    >Zuendel successfully appealed on a point of law — the law was
    >unconstitutional. (And good for him, the law needed to be overturned
    >anyway.)

    >Appealing a point of law does not change the facts of the case. And
    >the facts were such that two juries found him guilty.

    You appear to be claiming that the jury rendered a verdict upon the
    “news.” Is that really what you intend to imply?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:53 PDT 1996
    Article: 45227 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:37:36 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 62
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:39:44 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    ># It is a nice touch about the corpse of a child being thrown
    ># in,

    >I had a feeling nazi-boys would be drooling over this photo.

    ># though, seeing how it was under BRITISH direction at the time.

    >The question is who was responsible for the child’s death, not
    >under whose direction the child was buried.

    As we know from the IMT the death is the responsibility of those who
    made the tranportation of food impossible and who destroyed the power
    plant that power the water pumping station.

    Do you have some problem with this or do you hold it was possible to
    maintain food and water supplies in the face of the allies destroying
    everything in sight?

    >-Danny Keren.

    Kneel down me boy, and I’ll give ye the pledge.

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: No fuel needed
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

    “MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
    check at each
    one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
    …. When the last one was in,
    the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
    had set in, the
    ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
    doors were opened, and the
    Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
    they were burned in the
    open air without the use of fuel. ”
    IMT XX – p. 494.

    More Nazi physics at work.

    I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

    On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
    do this?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:53 PDT 1996
    Article: 45228 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:40:49 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 80
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:43:00 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

    >In article ,
    >[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >>All the following photos are in
    >>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
    >>and
    >>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

    >And, for European users:

    >ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

    >Several additional mirror sites will be announced soon, to
    >assist Mr. Schoedel in locating his files.

    >>They are scanned from “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R. Phillips,
    >>William Hodge and Company, 1949.

    >>Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
    >>Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
    >>Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
    >>Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
    >>Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.

    Responding to your fraud is getting quite tiresome be then I am
    indetatigable (pronounced as in Monty Python and the Holy Grail of
    course.)

    >Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg Gardelegen2.jpg
    >Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

    This is a fine collection.

    Gardelegen1.jpg

    12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
    stretchers.

    Gardelegen3.jpg

    Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
    intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
    print)

    Thekla2.jpg

    Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
    side of the fence.

    Gardelegen2.jpg

    Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
    intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

    Thekla1.jpg

    Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
    indications of fire.

    Thekla3.jpg

    Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
    burned.

    Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

    Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
    fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

    In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
    burned alive?

    =====

    The deliberate fraud promoted by Nizkor is quite tranparent.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:54 PDT 1996
    Article: 45231 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:52:38 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 23
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 8:55:22 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
    >>
    >> >Deny what, exactly, Giwer? That you are a misanthropic prick who spammed
    >> >the newsgroup over a dozen times with re-posts of the _entire_ Wannsee
    >> >protocol? I wouldn’t even _think_ of denying that!
    >>
    >> Is this how you holohuggers justify harrassing my family?

    >And who was harrassing your family, prick? Not I, prick. Must be your
    >senile dementia acting up again, prick. Why don’t you go play with
    >yourself in a corner, prick.

    Who? Holohuggers reading this conference of course. I posted it when
    it happened. The most common response was that it couldn’t happen to a
    nicer guy, right from named holohuggers here.

    But you remember that.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:55 PDT 1996
    Article: 45236 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:48:49 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 60
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:50:56 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    >[Two sources which quote SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein]

    ># So what are the two sources you used for these quotes?

    >But I gave the exact source and page numbers. Can you read?

    >One is testimony, the other is an affidavit which appears in
    >the end of the book.

    The ORIGINAL sources, not these derivative sources. We have already
    seen more that enough examples of the deliberate deception of these
    derivative sources.

    If you do not have originals please do not bother me. I have been
    disillusioned enough by finding the originals of your bullshit.

    >-Danny Keren.

    Kneel down and I’ll give ye the pledge.

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:55 PDT 1996
    Article: 45237 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
    Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:33:04 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 19
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:35:13 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45237 alt.politics.white-power:33688

    Laura Finsten wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:

    >> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
    >>me in any manner.

    >Or not. Why haven’t you responded to the question I posted some days
    >ago, Mr. Giwer? I’ll repeat it for you here: By age 35, what degree
    >of closure is there in the lambdoidal, coronal and sagittal sutures
    >of the human cranium, on average? Which elements of the pelvis
    >fuse, normally, and why what age, on average?

    Because you have refused to explain what form of crazy glue Hamlet used
    to reconstruct the skull for his soliloquy of course.

    Keep at it fat broad. You are earning yourself points in Shoah.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:56 PDT 1996
    Article: 45238 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Giwer is still trolling
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:39:48 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 68
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:41:57 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >(Ken McVay OBC) said:

    >>
    >>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    >>[The Troll said] If you folks would simply stop being ripped off
    >> by idirect you could do …

    >>>Giwer-troll is “in media hootch” again.

    >>So what’s new, Mr. McFee? One of these days, perhaps Mr. Giwer will sober
    >>up, and discover, much to his discomfort, that
    >>Nizkor does not have, and never has had, any business dealings with
    >>idirect.

    >I wouldn’t expect the day to come real soon.

    >>Until that Day of Sobriety, the Troll will no doubt simply
    >>continue his trolling – what else is he good for, given that

    >Once a troll, always a troll.

    >–
    >Gord McFee

    >.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
    >– MR/2 2.26 #331

    I hope I am getting through to you. Every time there is some malicious
    post about me I will repeat another attack upon you precious holocaust.

    Are you listening?

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:57 PDT 1996
    Article: 45239 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Greenie games
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:55:54 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 96
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:58:04 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    This is a tale of using the Stanford internet link for email
    harrassment. If this continues Stanford is a legitimate target.

    The greenie game is to pretend my public posts are in fact private email
    and then complain about it. He is specializing in this form of created
    harassment.

    It is difficult to believe that anyone but a holohugger is stupid enough
    to fall for this approach.

    As this message was sent barely 30 minutes before the response it
    appears that he is using a bot to create this email.

    In other words, it is another holohugger form of harrassment as that is
    the only thing they have left.

    You will note the wording of the objection is EXACTLY the same as the
    last exchange.

    I other words his university is operating and automated harrassment
    script.

    =====

    Return-Path:
    Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
    (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    id BAA00187; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
    Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail3 via smap
    (V1.3)
    id sma000178; Sat Jun 22 01:37:25 1996
    Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    BAA29817; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    From: “Richard J. Green”
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Irving’s ‘Goebbels’ book now available
    References: <[email protected]>
    In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    X-from: Rich Green
    Precedence: junk

    >On 20 Jun 1996 21:22:36 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
    >Green) wrote:

    >>Is the IHR the only source for this book? If I want a copy but don’t
    >>want to support the IHR, is there a way I can get one?

    > It is called a rock an a hard place.

    > Get over it.
    >

    Mr. Giwer,

    I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    choose to do so in the future.

    Rich Green

    Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    superficially
    plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    please refer to

    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    (Translation into English not yet available.)
    —————————————————————————-
    Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    [email protected] Stanford University
    http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    “Remember the days of yore,
    “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    -Deuteronomy 32:7

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:58 PDT 1996
    Article: 45240 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Marduk forging again?
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:56:21 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 62
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:58:30 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
    >P. Stein) said:

    >>
    >>In article <[email protected]>,
    >>Richard J. Green wrote:
    >>>Mr. Giwer has been posting with two different headers. Perhaps, he has
    >>>just changed the way his software is set up, or perhaps Marduk is at it
    >>>again.
    >>>
    >>>Comments?

    >> Genuine Giwer articles come from visibly different posting hosts than
    >>the Marduk forgeries. I haven’t received any rugelach in the mail, so
    >>unless Marduk has gotten smarter, the new headers are still genuine Giwer,
    >>and the content appears to be as well.

    >I would tend to agree. A Giwer a day keeps the MAALOX away.

    >–
    >Gord McFee

    >.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
    >– MR/2 2.26 #331

    >

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:58 PDT 1996
    Article: 45241 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Then there were some show acquittals
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:56:45 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 63
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:58:54 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
    >P. Stein) said:

    >>
    >>In article <[email protected]>,
    >> plagiarized the work of Carlos Porter without
    >>giving proper attribution:

    >>[snip]

    >> Probably lifted from:

    >>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/trials/trintglt.html

    >> Presenting the work of others without proper attribution is dishonest
    >>and lacks integrity. Mr. Porter should be given proper credit for his
    >>work.

    >You surely didn’t expect any better, did you Mr. Stein?

    >–
    >Gord McFee

    >.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
    >– MR/2 2.26 #331

    >

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:35:59 PDT 1996
    Article: 45242 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Who’s Fat and Who ain’t
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:57:29 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 70
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 1:59:39 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >I’m sorry about this, but there is a certain member of this newsgroup who
    >has been implying that certain female members of this newsgroup are fat.
    >Now, normally, that kind of troll (I refuse to specify who I mean) would be
    >ignored. But since that person is the incarnation of historical and other
    >accuracy, I can only say that ‘fess up time has come. Members of this
    >newsgroup are hereby ordered to post the following information (men
    >included, since there is a chance some of them are fat too):

    >Age (real or imputed)
    >Height
    >Weight
    >Body build
    >Hair color
    >Eye color
    >Number of bones in skull (ear-bones excluded)
    >Number of bones in pelvis (ear-bones excluded)
    >Favorite color of silica gel
    >IQ (to the nearest 100)
    >Highest level of education obtained
    >Highest level of education claimed
    >Employment history (real or imagined)

    >The winner gets an 8×12 glossy of a _Lord of the Rings_ character (can you
    >guess which one?).

    >P.S. This is not spam material. It is also not steak, hamburger or chicken.

    >–
    >Gord McFee

    >.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
    >– MR/2 2.26 #331

    >

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:00 PDT 1996
    Article: 45243 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Who’s Fat and Who ain’t
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:57:53 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 80
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:00:02 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Laura Finsten wrote:

    >[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

    >>I’m sorry about this, but there is a certain member of this newsgroup who
    >>has been implying that certain female members of this newsgroup are fat.
    >>Now, normally, that kind of troll (I refuse to specify who I mean) would be
    >>ignored. But since that person is the incarnation of historical and other
    >>accuracy, I can only say that ‘fess up time has come. Members of this
    >>newsgroup are hereby ordered to post the following information (men
    >>included, since there is a chance some of them are fat too):

    >Age (real or imputed) 29???

    >Height 6′???

    >Weight 125??? (don’t ask if its lbs or kgs, though)

    >Body build No, it was making me look too muscular

    >Hair color I don’t colour my hair

    >Eye color I don’t wear eye make-up

    >Number of bones in skull (ear-bones excluded) will have to get back to
    >Number of bones in pelvis (ear-bones excluded) you on these ones in a
    > couple of decades

    >Favorite color of silica gel well of course, blue, for silica gel
    > as for everything else

    >IQ (to the nearest 100) I only know my hat-size, is that an acceptable
    > substitute? Rushton thinks so.

    >Highest level of education obtained I don’t need no stinkin’ edgecashun

    >Highest level of education claimed Why claim what you don’t need?
    >
    >Employment history (real or imagined) Yeah, I imagine employment.

    >>The winner gets an 8×12 glossy of a _Lord of the Rings_ character (can you
    >>guess which one?).

    >Hey, Gord, what are the criteria for judging, anyway?

    >>P.S. This is not spam material. It is also not steak, hamburger or chicken.

    >Tofu?

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:00 PDT 1996
    Article: 45251 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: STANFORD U participating in email harrassment
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:08:47 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 171
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:10:58 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    This one came through five minutes after the post demonstrating that
    Greenies bot on the server is supported by Stanford University and they
    will do nothing to stop this email harrassment.

    That makes Stanford University the same piece of harrassing shit that is
    Greenie is.

    Of course copies are being sent to root and if there is no response I
    will persue the Stanford web site as far as necessary to to inform them
    of his use of their computers for the purpose of email harrassment.

    He thinks he is being clever. Rather he is making Stanford U a party to
    his harrassment.

    =====

    Return-Path:
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    (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    id BAA14202; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
    Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail2 via smap
    (V1.3)
    id sma014198; Sat Jun 22 01:58:35 1996
    Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    BAA29851; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:57:59 -0700
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:57:59 -0700
    From: “Richard J. Green”
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Greenie games
    References: <[email protected]>
    In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    X-from: Rich Green
    Precedence: junk

    > This is a tale of using the Stanford internet link for email
    >harrassment. If this continues Stanford is a legitimate target.

    >

    > The greenie game is to pretend my public posts are in fact private email
    >and then complain about it. He is specializing in this form of created
    >harassment.

    > It is difficult to believe that anyone but a holohugger is stupid enough
    >to fall for this approach.

    > As this message was sent barely 30 minutes before the response it
    >appears that he is using a bot to create this email.

    > In other words, it is another holohugger form of harrassment as that is
    >the only thing they have left.

    > You will note the wording of the objection is EXACTLY the same as the
    >last exchange.

    > I other words his university is operating and automated harrassment
    >script.

    >=====

    >Return-Path:
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
    >(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    > id BAA00187; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
    >Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail3 via smap
    >(V1.3)
    > id sma000178; Sat Jun 22 01:37:25 1996
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    >BAA29817; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    >From: “Richard J. Green”
    >Message-Id: <199606220838.BAA29[email protected]>
    >To: [email protected]
    >Subject: Re: Irving’s ‘Goebbels’ book now available
    >References: <[email protected]>
    >In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    >X-from: Rich Green
    >Precedence: junk

    >>On 20 Jun 1996 21:22:36 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
    >>Green) wrote:

    >>>Is the IHR the only source for this book? If I want a copy but don’t
    >>>want to support the IHR, is there a way I can get one?

    >> It is called a rock an a hard place.

    >> Get over it.
    >>

    >Mr. Giwer,

    >I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    >Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    >At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    >choose to do so in the future.

    >Rich Green

    >Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    >he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    >all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    >superficially
    >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    >respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    >seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    >please refer to

    >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    > “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    > reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    > implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    > (Translation into English not yet available.)
    >—————————————————————————-
    >Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    >[email protected] Stanford University
    >http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    > “Remember the days of yore,
    > “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    > -Deuteronomy 32:7

    Mr. Giwer,

    I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    choose to do so in the future.

    Rich Green

    Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    superficially
    plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    please refer to

    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    (Translation into English not yet available.)
    —————————————————————————-
    Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    [email protected] Stanford University
    http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    “Remember the days of yore,
    “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    -Deuteronomy 32:7

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:01 PDT 1996
    Article: 45252 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:11:41 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 32
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:13:50 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

    >In <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    >>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

    >[snip]
    >>>> But you know that. Rather you would ignore that point and slander me
    >>>>like the holohugger you really are.

    >>>Still name-calling. I see.

    >> Holohugger is a legitimate acronym […]

    >One wonders when we are due to be enlightened as to the expansion of
    >each letter of the word “holohugger”. Then again, I suppose if one
    >were to find the mythical dictionary containing the definition of
    >”paupacy”, one would no doubt find that the word “acronym” has a
    >completely different meaning to that which all reasonable people
    >understand.

    If you are interested in the dictionary it is right there before
    fatbroad.

    The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know it. You
    have no other qualifications.

    You contribute nothing.

    You accept only sperm from a thing.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:02 PDT 1996
    Article: 45254 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Of Trolls and Temper Tantrums
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:59:19 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 89
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:01:30 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

    >Readers of this newsgroup will have noticed some recent automated
    >posts by Mr. McCarthy which begin:

    > Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
    > proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
    > until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with
    > insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses,

    > with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has
    > buried any signal that there might have been under an avalanche of
    > noise.

    >As might have been expected, not unlike the little child whose parents
    >have wisely decided to ignore behaviour that is nothing more than
    >disruptive attention-seeking, the troll – having long ago worn out his
    >welcome and proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that (even if he did
    >have something useful to contribute) his obviously non-existent
    >self-esteem precludes his engaging in civilized factual rational
    >discourse – proceeds to throw a major temper tantrum in response:

    > I can and will come in under another name that is not killfiled. You

    > folks have proven yourselves so freaking dumb that I can do anything
    > I want to show what idiots you are.

    > [Message-ID: <[email protected]>]

    >This, of course, is not in the least surprising. One can hardly wait
    >for him to reinvent himself! But it is in complete contradiction to
    >his “words of wisdom” in his recent response to a post of Mr.
    >Morrison:

    > As long at (sic) you folks continue to post about me I will respond.

    > The longer the post the long (sic) my tagline will be.

    > [Message-ID: <[email protected]>]

    >So I guess the lesson is we are damned if we do, and damned if we
    >don’t – because he who will leave no post untrolled is bound and
    >determined to get his daily dose of attention one way or another.

    >If he weren’t so pathetically ignorant and redundantly boring, this
    >would be almost amusing!

    >hro
    >=======================
    >Hilary Ostrov
    >e-mail: [email protected]
    >http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
    >Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

    Right on, fat broad. Do you have do clean up McVay with your lips also?

    What a stupid and fat broad.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:03 PDT 1996
    Article: 45255 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
    Subject: Re: Giwer’s silica/Erco lie
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:00:09 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 106
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:02:20 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45255 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:66

    [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) asked rhetorically:

    >> What is “Erco?”

    >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) replied:

    >> That is what I asked you folks. Now if you can identify this as silica
    >> gel I will be interested in reading the document and the source.

    > Another lie from Matt Giwer. Erco was identified as silica gel
    >back in February, as Mr. Giwer undoubtedly knows (and would
    >rather forget, no doubt)…

    > From: [email protected]
    > Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    > Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
    > Date: 5 Feb 1996 07:07:35 GMT
    >
    > Mr. Giwer has been posing the possibility that a witness might not
    > have seen Zyklon-B in the form of “blue crystals.” He has
    > further stated that Zyklon-B was simply hydrogen cyanide gas
    > adsorbed onto small pellets of “kitty litter.” He also stated on
    > one occasion that the product was blue because liquid HCN was blue,
    > which is patently false. Rather than detract and admit his mistake,
    > he went on to tell he had _not_ said that but rather that the ‘blue’
    > color was due to a reaction between the hydrogen cyanide and the
    > support material, which is highly unlikely.
    >
    > Mr. Giwer has also suggested that Zyklon-B was only produced in the
    > manner described above, rather than on various supports, insisting
    > that the information given on the patents was not reliable.He did
    > not accept that Zyklon-B was produced employing treated lignite
    > disks, treated diatomaceous earth and, more important, on cubes of
    > silica gel. This last material appears to be a crystal although, of
    > course it is not.
    >
    > […]
    >
    > (From page 21 of Pressac’s book. ***emphasis*** mine : HWM)
    >
    > 2) “Photo 20”
    >
    > “500 grams can of Zyklon-B without it’s label, containing small
    > ***bluish pellets*** of porous silica known as Erco […]

    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon-b

    >Mr. Giwer has been made aware of this. For example, on January 30th, he
    >called Mr. Mazal “shit for brains” and quoted this text back to him:

    > > References? Pages 20-21 of Pressac’s book. Look for ‘Erco.’

    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0196
    >(line 8,125 [sic])

    >> As you know the holohuggers here, up until a couple weeks ago, had it as
    >> an article of faith that silica gel was the carrier and that it was
    >> blue. Are you saying they were lying? Or are you saying that you agree
    >> with me that it was not is described by the eyewitnesses?

    > Of course silica gel is bluish, as pointed out by Pressac and
    >by the Degesch manual, which Mr. Giwer himself has quoted numerous times:

    > blue cubes (Erco)

    >In other words, Mr. Giwer has been caught in yet another lie — how many
    >does that make? Are we up to thirty yet?

    >Really, Mr. Giwer. Have you no shame?

    >–
    >Nizkor Canada – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    >FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
    >FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)……unlearn
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:03 PDT 1996
    Article: 45258 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: The greenbot continues, holohugger harressment
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:02:45 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 104
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:04:56 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Return-Path:
    Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
    (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    id CAA26116; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:55:16 -0700 (PDT)
    Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail3 via smap
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    id sma026113; Sat Jun 22 02:55:16 1996
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    CAA00284; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:56:35 -0700
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:56:35 -0700
    From: “Richard J. Green”
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: STANFORD U participating in email harrassment
    References: <[email protected]>
    In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    X-from: Rich Green
    Precedence: junk

    >At 02:11 AM 6/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
    >>> This one came through five minutes after the post demonstrating that
    >>>Greenies bot on the server is supported by Stanford University and they
    >>>will do nothing to stop this email harrassment.
    >>
    >>> That makes Stanford University the same piece of harrassing shit that is
    >>>Greenie is.
    >>
    >>> Of course copies are being sent to root and if there is no response I
    >>>will persue the Stanford web site as far as necessary to to inform them
    >>>of his use of their computers for the purpose of email harrassment.
    >>
    >>> He thinks he is being clever. Rather he is making Stanford U a party to
    >>>his harrassment.

    > Very clearly here is the problem.

    > You have a Richard J. Green who claims to be in your Chemistry
    >Department.

    > He has a bot set up so that any mention of his posts by me in
    >alt.revisionism results in email to me.

    > This is a form of harrassment. I expect it to stop immediately.

    > I will pursue this as high as possible if it does not cease.

    > I hope I am making myself clear. I will go to the accreditation
    >board if necessary. I know what I am doing.

    > I will send you all of the evidence needed upon request. I have no
    >interest in flooding you at this time. But this will stop.

    >—————————————————————
    > Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

    > http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
    > Commentary from the right side of the curve
    >Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
    > http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
    > http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)
    >http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)

    Mr. Giwer,

    I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    choose to do so in the future.

    Rich Green

    Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    superficially
    plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    please refer to

    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    (Translation into English not yet available.)
    —————————————————————————-
    Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    [email protected] Stanford University
    http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    “Remember the days of yore,
    “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    -Deuteronomy 32:7

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:04 PDT 1996
    Article: 45260 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Eureka!
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:11:53 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 126
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:14:03 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

    >In a recent post – sorry, it’s not really worth doing a search to find
    >it – but suffice it to say, a certain prolific poster of prattle was
    >kind enough to advise us of our failure to recognize his mission
    >statement.

    >It seems to me, that he has now provided us with an important clue to
    >another oversight on our part. He has informed us that the word
    >”holohugger” is an acronym. I initially came to the erroneous
    >conclusion that while he was able to spell “acronym” correctly, he
    >didn’t have a clue as to the meaning of the word. But of course, I
    >had forgotten this poster’s omniscience.

    >What he didn’t tell us, though, is that the acronym “holohugger” is,
    >in fact, an anagram for the acronym HELGOOHURG (Healthy Educated
    >Literate Genteel Observer Of History Unravelling “Revisionist”
    >Gambits). Recognizing that he is profoundly deficient in _all_ the
    >qualities necessary to be a helgoohurg, and perhaps a little jealous,
    >he proffers *his* acronym instead.

    >There it is, folks! Another gambit unravelled!

    >Hilary “helgoohurg and proud!”

    >=======================
    >Hilary Ostrov
    >e-mail: [email protected]
    >http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
    >Co-Webmaster – The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

    Nice try, fat broad.

    Return-Path:
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    (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
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    CAA00284; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:56:35 -0700
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:56:35 -0700
    From: “Richard J. Green”
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: STANFORD U participating in email harrassment
    References: <[email protected]>
    In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    X-from: Rich Green
    Precedence: junk

    >At 02:11 AM 6/22/96 -0700, you wrote:
    >>> This one came through five minutes after the post demonstrating that
    >>>Greenies bot on the server is supported by Stanford University and they
    >>>will do nothing to stop this email harrassment.
    >>
    >>> That makes Stanford University the same piece of harrassing shit that is
    >>>Greenie is.
    >>
    >>> Of course copies are being sent to root and if there is no response I
    >>>will persue the Stanford web site as far as necessary to to inform them
    >>>of his use of their computers for the purpose of email harrassment.
    >>
    >>> He thinks he is being clever. Rather he is making Stanford U a party to
    >>>his harrassment.

    > Very clearly here is the problem.

    > You have a Richard J. Green who claims to be in your Chemistry
    >Department.

    > He has a bot set up so that any mention of his posts by me in
    >alt.revisionism results in email to me.

    > This is a form of harrassment. I expect it to stop immediately.

    > I will pursue this as high as possible if it does not cease.

    > I hope I am making myself clear. I will go to the accreditation
    >board if necessary. I know what I am doing.

    > I will send you all of the evidence needed upon request. I have no
    >interest in flooding you at this time. But this will stop.

    >—————————————————————
    > Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

    > http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
    > Commentary from the right side of the curve
    >Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
    > http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
    > http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)
    >http://www2.combase.com/~matt/mega/ (for internet advertising)
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:05 PDT 1996
    Article: 45261 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, IX
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:13:10 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 67
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:15:21 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:
    >> Chuck Ferree wrote:
    >>
    >> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
    >>
    >> >Can’t stand your whining, Mr. Giewer. Please stop posting the same old
    >> >complaint on every post re SS men tell the truth.
    >>
    >>
    >> >Matt Giwer wrote:
    >>
    >> >> It would not be so bad if you were spamming just one message but you
    >> >> spam hundreds of the same messages every week.
    >>
    >> >Jeez, this is even a lie. You’re so far gone you don’t know what day
    >> >it is. This man is trying to offer evidence which you keep asking for,
    >> >so what is your gripe? Maybe TIT FOR TAT like your girlfriend, Ingrid
    >> >In any case this alt. rev. site doesn’t belong to the deniers, and
    >> >liars. Just grit your teeth. The evidence will be coming and you need
    >> >to accept it gracefully.
    >>
    >> It must be senility. alt.revision belongs to revision, not to
    >> orthodoxy. It is people like you who do not belong here.
    >>
    >> >> Why do you do this?
    >>
    >> >Who cares!!! But it’s good and needs to be done.
    >>
    >> With stories like yours you should listen to them. At least you could
    >> get with the program.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>>>
    >what evidence? Where is it? We’ve been waiting over 50 years for you to
    >manufacture it.
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:06 PDT 1996
    Article: 45263 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:35:09 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 38
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:37:17 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:

    >> “All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been
    >> kicked in the testicles beyond repair.”

    >_Again_!?!

    >I can’t _count_ how many times this lie has been debunked here on
    >alt.revisionism. Yale Edeiken debunked it when Giwer posted it —
    >TWO DAYS AGO.

    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-interrogation-methods

    >The facts are that the above-quoted allegation, and other allegations
    >of physical torture, were investigated, and were found to be wholly
    >untrue. The Germans in question were given lighter sentences because
    >improper techniques were used — like not having a defense attorney
    >present for questioning and so on.

    >But the claims of physical torture were groundless.

    Not only can you not refute it you can only give Nizkor as a reference.

    Would you like me to repost all of the clear bullshit I have found on
    Nizkor?

    Any time you ask I will repost it all.

    Nizkor is a frigging embarrassment to anyone seriously interested in
    this subject.

    But of course someone passed the hat for a machine to host it that was
    barely worth $300 a year ago when it was purchased. Nizkorites are
    suckers for anything.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:06 PDT 1996
    Article: 45265 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: The greenbot continues
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:01:47 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 230
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:04:00 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Return-Path:
    Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
    (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    id CAA19634; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
    Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail2 via smap
    (V1.3)
    id sma019632; Sat Jun 22 02:11:45 1996
    Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    CAA29953; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:11:08 -0700
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:11:08 -0700
    From: “Richard J. Green”
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: STANFORD U participating in email harrassment
    References: <[email protected]>
    In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    X-from: Rich Green
    Precedence: junk

    > This one came through five minutes after the post demonstrating that
    >Greenies bot on the server is supported by Stanford University and they
    >will do nothing to stop this email harrassment.

    > That makes Stanford University the same piece of harrassing shit that is
    >Greenie is.

    > Of course copies are being sent to root and if there is no response I
    >will persue the Stanford web site as far as necessary to to inform them
    >of his use of their computers for the purpose of email harrassment.

    > He thinks he is being clever. Rather he is making Stanford U a party to
    >his harrassment.

    >=====

    >Return-Path:
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
    >(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    > id BAA14202; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
    >Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail2 via smap
    >(V1.3)
    > id sma014198; Sat Jun 22 01:58:35 1996
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    >BAA29851; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:57:59 -0700
    >Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:57:59 -0700
    >From: “Richard J. Green”
    >Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    >To: [email protected]
    >Subject: Re: Greenie games
    >References: <[email protected]>
    >In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    >X-from: Rich Green
    >Precedence: junk

    >> This is a tale of using the Stanford internet link for email
    >>harrassment. If this continues Stanford is a legitimate target.

    >>

    >> The greenie game is to pretend my public posts are in fact private email
    >>and then complain about it. He is specializing in this form of created
    >>harassment.

    >> It is difficult to believe that anyone but a holohugger is stupid enough
    >>to fall for this approach.

    >> As this message was sent barely 30 minutes before the response it
    >>appears that he is using a bot to create this email.

    >> In other words, it is another holohugger form of harrassment as that is
    >>the only thing they have left.

    >> You will note the wording of the objection is EXACTLY the same as the
    >>last exchange.

    >> I other words his university is operating and automated harrassment
    >>script.

    >>=====

    >>Return-Path:
    >>Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
    >>(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    >> id BAA00187; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
    >>Received: from d31rz0.stanford.edu(36.76.0.151) by ixmail3 via smap
    >>(V1.3)
    >> id sma000178; Sat Jun 22 01:37:25 1996
    >>Received: (from [email protected]) by d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (8.6.8/8.6.6) id
    >>BAA29817; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    >>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:38:43 -0700
    >>From: “Richard J. Green”
    >>Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    >>To: [email protected]
    >>Subject: Re: Irving’s ‘Goebbels’ book now available
    >>References: <[email protected]>
    >>In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    >>X-from: Rich Green
    >>Precedence: junk

    >>>On 20 Jun 1996 21:22:36 -0700, [email protected] (Richard J.
    >>>Green) wrote:

    >>>>Is the IHR the only source for this book? If I want a copy but don’t
    >>>>want to support the IHR, is there a way I can get one?

    >>> It is called a rock an a hard place.

    >>> Get over it.
    >>>

    >>Mr. Giwer,

    >>I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    >>Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    >>At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    >>choose to do so in the future.

    >>Rich Green

    >>Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    >>he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    >>all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    >>superficially
    >>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    >>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    >>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    >>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    >>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    >>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    >>respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    >>seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    >>please refer to

    >>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    >> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    >> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    >> implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    >> (Translation into English not yet available.)
    >>—————————————————————————-
    >>Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    >>[email protected] Stanford University
    >>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    >> “Remember the days of yore,
    >> “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    >> -Deuteronomy 32:7

    >Mr. Giwer,

    >I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    >Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    >At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    >choose to do so in the future.

    >Rich Green

    >Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    >he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    >all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    >superficially
    >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    >respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    >seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    >please refer to

    >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    > “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    > reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    > implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    > (Translation into English not yet available.)
    >—————————————————————————-
    >Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    >[email protected] Stanford University
    >http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    > “Remember the days of yore,
    > “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    > -Deuteronomy 32:7

    Mr. Giwer,

    I have asked you not to send me private mail.
    Your mail is being returned to you unread.
    At present I am not sending a copy to [email protected], but I may
    choose to do so in the future.

    Rich Green

    Mr. Giwer’s ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
    he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
    all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound
    superficially
    plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
    seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
    please refer to

    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
    reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
    implying that we is observant?” –Matt Giwer
    (Translation into English not yet available.)
    —————————————————————————-
    Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
    [email protected] Stanford University
    http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
    “Remember the days of yore,
    “Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you.”
    -Deuteronomy 32:7

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:07 PDT 1996
    Article: 45266 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUN 17-18: 32.1% / 37.4%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:17:33 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 20
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:19:43 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:68 alt.revisionism:45266

    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    > “As long at you folks continue to post about me I will respond.
    > The longer the post the long[er] my tagline will be.”
    > – Matt Giwer, June 20, 1996

    >Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism.

    Keep that singlehandedly firmly in mind.

    You folks called me an anti-semite and a nazi without cause. You
    harrassed my service provider. You harrassed my family. You did
    anything you could to silence me.

    Consider it righteous Jewish revenge.

    I never did tell you that, did I.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:08 PDT 1996
    Article: 45267 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
    Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:27:20 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 34
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 3:28:43 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    ># Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not
    ># know what a crystal is.

    >Pressac obviously does not claim that the Erco pellets were
    >crystals. This was explained to you already.

    >But go on lying. I know. It’s a disease. You can’t help it.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

    ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
    entrances to the four-story
    house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
    the same people were
    forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
    had to be transferred to one
    place in the courtyard. ”
    IMT VII – p.491.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:08 PDT 1996
    Article: 45270 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Giwer’s opinions – purely emotional
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 05:15:23 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 79
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 12:17:30 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected]r.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >>>I understand perfectly, Mr. Giwer. Your opinions are loud-mouthed and
    >>>certainly not worth having (Was für ein Ansinnen!) Apart from that,
    >>>you clearly say, that your writings neither meet the standard of
    >>>historical nor of journalistic writings,

    >> My only claim is that they meet the standards of what they are. Do you
    >>have a problem with that? If so, why?

    >For god’s sake, Mr. Giwer. I begin to believe that you are not playing the fool but that
    >you are really that dumb. Just to do you in your illiteracy a favour, I will repeat it one more
    >time:

    >If you want to put vile polemics into your web-pages it is your business, and you have all
    >right of the world to do so. But when I question your polemics here in this newsgroup and
    >in public, you will have to provide supporting evidence and logical argumentation in
    >their defense.

    You are correct in that what I put on my website is my business entirely
    and not yours. Yet you brought one of them into this conference and
    started a discussion. (It was quite off topic but then you are a
    holohugger and can do no wrong.)

    Now if you want to discuss what I post in this newsgroup that is another
    matter. However, if you wish to challenge what I post as polemics then
    in all fairness you should be challenging the holohuggers for their
    similar posts.

    But you will not.

    >IF YOU FAIL TO DO SO, THAT’S THE SAME AS IF YOU SAID THEY ARE PURELY
    >SUBJECTIVE AND EMOTIONAL, AND APART FROM THAT COMPLETELY UNTRUE.

    The great Wizard of Oz has spoken.

    DON’T mind that man behind the curtain.

    Wassamatta, Toto piss on your leg?

    >As a matter of fact, you did fail to put forward anything convincing thus you need not to
    >complain about my conclusion:

    >** Mr. Giwer is in no way qualified to express himself in a rational way or to
    >** support his inane claims with any historical evidence. If pressed to do so,
    >** he will retreat to the point “I don’t need to proof anything because this is
    >** my opinion”.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: No fuel needed
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

    “MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
    check at each
    one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
    …. When the last one was in,
    the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
    had set in, the
    ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
    doors were opened, and the
    Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
    they were burned in the
    open air without the use of fuel. ”
    IMT XX – p. 494.

    More Nazi physics at work.

    I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

    On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
    do this?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 09:36:09 PDT 1996
    Article: 45279 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
    Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
    Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:38:46 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 15
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]cc.biu.ac.il>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 5:40:30 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45279 soc.history.what-if:10988

    [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

    >Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

    >: And then of course there was the holohugger harrassment of my family.

    >There was no such harrassment and you know it. Why do you continue to
    >post this lie? Do you really think it makes you even marginally more
    >sympathetic a character?

    I am posting what happened. If you choose not to believe it, that is
    your problem.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:52 PDT 1996
    Article: 10977 of soc.history.what-if
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
    Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:30:55 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 20
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:33:04 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gwen Orel) wrote:

    >Obviously, the people here think so. This is a forum for discussing
    >interesting *imaginary* occurrences– NOT a forum for promoting
    >a revisionist history, of any sort. Get it? And this is not a
    >conference; it’s a newsgroup.

    >Gwen

    It appears you are declaring the revisionist version NOT TO BE
    imaginary.

    I am simply suggesting that it is in fact is imaginary.

    So why do you want to suppress discussion of this imaginary scenario?

    I really do not see your point in this.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:52 PDT 1996
    Article: 10978 of soc.history.what-if
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
    Subject: Re: Giwer – Holocaust revisionist
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:32:58 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 18
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:35:07 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Gwen Orel) wrote:

    >One thing is for sure; that Matt Giwer is diverting the topic
    >of the original post into one of his own agenda. The original
    >post asks “what IF the holocaust had never happened,” working
    >on the assumption that it has. By changing the premise, Mr. Giwer
    >demonstrates his inability to participate here. It is sheer
    >rudeness, not collaboration.

    >Gwen

    So just what is your problem with discussing the revisionist scenario as
    pure fantasy? You appear to have a problem with that.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:53 PDT 1996
    Article: 11000 of soc.history.what-if
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
    Subject: Re: Let Matt Giwer Post!
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:41:04 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 25
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:43:14 AM PDT 1996

    Equinox wrote:

    >Censorship cuts both ways, don’t let self interest cut you too, let him
    >speak that men may know him mad, or else you may be cut out next, if
    >you don’t like it, ignore it, didn’t we learn that in kindergarten?
    > Equinox

    Of course, I agree.

    If I am mad it will be clear from what I post.

    I invite all comers to read what I post.

    I have no a priori interest in stopping others from speaking as they
    have of me and would not care to do so in any event.

    If I am a fool, let me display my foolishness for the world to see. But
    please let me diplay it myself and not let other malicious lies of
    others keep people from reading hy own foolishness.

    I do not think this is much to ask.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:53:34 PDT 1996
    Article: 45307 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!uniserve!n2van.istar!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Of Trolls and Temper Tantrums
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:30:02 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 27
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-12.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 5:32:00 AM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

    >Readers of this newsgroup will have noticed some recent automated
    >posts by Mr. McCarthy which begin:

    > Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
    > proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
    > until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with
    > insults, with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses,

    > with lies, and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has
    > buried any signal that there might have been under an avalanche of
    > noise.

    >As might have been expected, not unlike the little child whose parents
    >have wisely decided to ignore behaviour that is nothing more than
    >disruptive attention-seeking, the troll – having long ago worn out his
    >welcome and proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that (even if he did
    >have something useful to contribute) and whose obviously non-existent
    >self-esteem precludes his engaging in civilized factual rational
    >discourse – proceeds to throw a major temper tantrum in response:

    Hey, fat broad. Been there, done that, got the sillly tee-shirt.

    You are still fat and you still contribute nothing to Nizkor other than
    presenting on you back.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:53:36 PDT 1996
    Article: 45313 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Nizkor, Home of Superheroes
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:10:48 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 54
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-07.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 5:12:51 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

    > I use science. Works every time.

    >I responded:

    > Except when Mr. Giwer posts his notorious, “science proves
    > nothing” articles! But Mr. Giwer only posts that piece of
    > nonsense when his “science” is proven to be totally wrong.

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >[email protected] whines:

    > When have I posted any such thing as an article?
    > Never of course.

    >Mr. Giwer is playing his semantic games again, as his next sentence
    >clearly demonstrates:

    > I simply pointed out the math is for proving, science is not.
    > That is something every scientist knows.

    >So, “science is not for proving,” is not the same thing as “science
    >proves nothing!” Clearly, Mr. Giwer cannot read or he is deliberately
    >trying to deceive. That is called intellectual dishonesty and Mr. Giwer
    >wallows in it.

    Try it this way. You are not even qualified to follow the explanation.
    Leave science to the scientists.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

    ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
    entrances to the four-story
    house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
    the same people were
    forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
    had to be transferred to one
    place in the courtyard. ”
    IMT VII – p.491.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:53:37 PDT 1996
    Article: 45318 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
    Subject: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:12:51 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 108
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 7:14:58 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45318 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55435

    He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they have
    been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
    discussion of revisionism.

    Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal with
    people who won’t believe what the Gang insists they must believe.

    Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as they
    believe. And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
    the NG.

    And now when the same thing happens to them, they complain about it. Or
    is it not closer to the term they are so willing to use, whine about it.

    Anyone want to feel sorry for these poor little holohuggers. They do
    not have “their” conference any longer.

    They can no longer drive unbelievers out of it and brag about doing so.

    It is of interest how many people I have found who will attest to this
    gang behavior.

    They have lost in a fair fight of about 10 to 1. And now they just
    can’t deal with it.

    It is curious what they think an alt conference is all about.

    >Return-Path:
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by ixmail1.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
    > id FAA24541; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
    >Received: from eff.org(204.253.162.3) by ixmail1 via smap (V1.3)
    > id sma024509; Fri Jun 21 05:02:58 1996
    >Received: (from [email protected]) by eff.org (8.6.13/8.6.6) id FAA12849;
    Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:04:11 -0700
    >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
    >From: Declan McCullagh
    >To: Jamie McCarthy
    >cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
    > [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
    > [email protected]
    >Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
    >In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
    >Message-ID:
    >MIME-Version: 1.0
    >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
    >
    >Thanks for the note, Jamie.
    >
    >-Declan
    >
    >
    >On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jamie McCarthy wrote:
    >
    >> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
    >> news.admin.net-abuse.misc, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism)
    >>
    >> Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc; emailed “FYI” to various
    >> people whom Giwer calls “hijackers” and several pro-free-speech
    >> acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.
    >>
    >> Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
    >> alt.revisionism and “make it useless” to everyone with whom he disagrees.
    >> He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
    >> volume. Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!
    >>
    >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >> wrote (quoted in its entirety):
    >>
    >> : [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
    >> :
    >> : >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
    >> :
    >> : >>Heck, since Dan Keren is using retreads, I may as well do the same:
    >> :
    >> : >Dvd, I don’t think there is any need to justify using material that
    >> : >has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out here
    >> : >just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
    >> : >informing any new comers to alt.rev.
    >> :
    >> : I think it is an outstanding policy to return floods of reposts
    with
    >> : floods of reposts.
    >> :
    >> : After all the holohuggers think they own this conference. It
    is about
    >> : time they learned better. After all if a low IQ person such as I can do
    >> : what two of them now have said I have done, if everyone starts doing
    >> : this we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
    >> : revisionism.
    >> :
    >> : That is, make it useless to the hijackers.
    >>
    >> Nizkor will continue to maintain an archive on this net abuser’s tactics
    >> and goals at:
    >>
    >> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
    >> —
    >> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
    >> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
    >> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
    >> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.
    >>
    >
    >
    >// [email protected] // I do not represent the EFF // [email protected] //

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 14:35:01 PDT 1996
    Article: 45332 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:23:56 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 46
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:26:10 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55441 alt.revisionism:45332

    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
    >braggadocio about “controlling this conference” [1], and simultaneously
    >to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
    >a response is necessary.

    You folks posted that I control the conference. I did not start that
    claim.

    >Note that the topic here is net abuse, not revisionism, so please send
    >followups to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.

    You will not be permitted to keep your efforts a secret from where they
    are being hatched.

    >My claim is that Matt Giwer’s intentions are to make alt.revisionism
    >useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
    >revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists. I
    >think I’m on firm ground with this claim, because Mr. Giwer has stated
    >so himself [2].

    Excuse me, but you know you folks have bragged about preventing exactly
    that. That is something you folks have bragged about many times.

    >However, it appears that Mr. Giwer has recently realized that abusing
    >the net and bragging about it _might_ not be his wisest course of
    >action. So, he is trying to put spin on his own words and deeds, and
    >to accuse his accusers of being just as bad as he is.

    As you know, you folks are the ones who have bragged about driving
    people out of alt.revision for years. You folks have openly bragged
    about harrassing people service providers, harrassing them personally,
    and harrassing their families, as you folks have done to me and mine.

    >Fortunately, hard drives have long memories.

    >1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
    >2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless

    But you fail to note the files at Nizkor are heavily censored and
    altered as part of your planned harrassement campaign.

    In other words, you fail to admit your posts in this newsgroup are
    nothing more than another part of your harrassment campaign.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 14:35:02 PDT 1996
    Article: 45335 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:27:58 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 18
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:30:11 PM CDT 1996
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    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55444 alt.revisionism:45335

    [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

    >In article ,
    >[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

    >>
    >>Well, they got their fill of skeptics! Not a single one of the people I
    >>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
    >>return to alt.revisionism. They say it’s because we regulars on
    >>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren’t professional
    >>enough for them.

    >And they are right.

    Not only mudslinging but harrassment of service providers, of the people
    and of their families personally. These people are scum. They also
    harrass employers when it is possible to do so.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 14:35:03 PDT 1996
    Article: 45336 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Procmail Vrs. Giwer: Procmail 2, Giwer 0
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:33:13 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 24
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:35:27 PM CDT 1996
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    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55447 alt.revisionism:45336

    [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >[email protected] (Richard Charles Graves) wrote:

    >>[email protected] writes:
    >>> This one came through five minutes after the post demonstrating
    >>>that Greenies bot on the server is supported by Stanford University and
    >>>they will do nothing to stop this email harrassment.

    >>Translation: Procmail is now refusing Giwer’s mail.

    >Nizkor’s Procmail also bounces Mr. Giwer’s mail, and it would
    >appear that being ignored is, to Giwer, the ultimate
    >humiliation. Being rejected by a few lines of code is
    >apparently far worse.

    However, as you know, I am not talking about mail. I am talking about
    newsgroup posts. That is what the bot is dealing with. It is taking NG
    posts and turning them into email to me.

    But thank you for taking the time to lie about it.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 14:35:03 PDT 1996
    Article: 45338 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:04:50 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 21
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:07:04 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >DvdThomas wrote:
    >>Dan Keren wrote:
    >>
    >>>Show me your evidence that there are traces on the *outside*
    >>>walls. I have a feeling you’re confusing this gas chamber with
    >>>some delousing chambers that indeed have traces on the outside walls.
    >>
    >>This is a given. There have even been discussions here about the
    >>significance. No one questioned the existence of what is present in
    >>pictures and reports. Why do you quibble about such an obvious matter?
    >>Or is quibbling the aim?

    >Where is Mr. Hunt’s evidence for such traces on the *outside* of
    >homicidal gas chambers.

    If there are none, why were you folks arguing there was a couple months
    ago?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 15:02:39 PDT 1996
    Article: 45340 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:08:33 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 56
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:10:49 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Keith Morrison wrote:

    >Laura Finsten wrote:
    >>
    >> Keith Morrison wrote:
    >>
    >> [cut]
    >>
    >> >For those who might have missed it, do read that thread. Mr
    >> >Giwer pulls a gaff worthy of tom Moran at his height. He told
    >> >me to check out Grey’s Anatomy to verify his answer. So I
    >> > did. Twenty-two bones in the skull and seven in the pelvis,
    >> >not counting the six small bones of the ears.
    >>
    >> Keith, the ears are not part of the pelvis. Although perhaps
    >> troll anatomy differs significantly from human anatomy in that
    >> area??
    >>
    >> >”Look, Dad! Ain’t that the biggest trapped troll you ever saw?!”

    >That it does. They sit on their ears. Never wonder why
    >they never appear to hear anything that proves them wrong?

    >–
    >Keith Morrison
    >[email protected]

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 15:02:41 PDT 1996
    Article: 45341 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:07:31 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 53
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:09:45 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

    >In article ,
    >Daniel Keren wrote:

    >>
    >># DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AT AUSCHWITZ STATE
    >># MUSEUM ADMITS ON CAMERA THAT AUSCHWITZ “GAS
    >># CHAMBER” IS A FRAUD!
    >>
    >>He didn’t, of course, state it was a “fraud”. But when you
    >>have a compulsive liar (Giwer) quoting a neo-Nazi web site,
    >>don’t expect the truth.
    >>
    >>Why does the gas chamber still have cyanide traces on its walls?

    >I’ve got G*wer kill filed now. I’m surprised that the deniers are still
    >repeating Cole’s lies

    >I have in front of me Dr. Piper’s repudiation of this video. It was
    >published in a full-page advertisement by Harry W. Mazal OBE in the
    >Daily Texan, Wednesday, Jan. 28, 1994.

    >I will extract some of the relevant portions. Not that English is not
    >Dr. Piper’s first language:

    >

    > …
    > 2. In his advertisement he introduces me as a “Head of Auschwitz
    > Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum.” This is untruth.
    > I am not and I have been neither a head of Auschwitz Archives
    > nor a director of Auschwitz Museum, as Cole maintains in
    > other propaganda leaflets.
    > …

    > 3. Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
    > unknown fact that the Nazis adapted the crematorium in
    > question in which the gas chamber were located for air-raid
    > shelter, the fact allegedly unknown even for Museum guides.
    > It is untruth.
    > …

    >

    Any evidence that he is telling the truth?

    I mean like a prominent sign having identified it as a reconstruction
    based upon an artist’s conception having always been there?

    Is there such a sign there now?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:30 PDT 1996
    Article: 45345 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: ‘They don’t call Auschwitz the extermination camp for nothing!’
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:58:04 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 200
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-28.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 10:00:12 PM CDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    ># Two of you holohuggers have admitted I have control of
    ># control of this conference and have gotten it back on topic.

    >I couldn’t find any article which said anything like this.

    You must have missed this.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
    From: [email protected]
    Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:18:02 GMT

    [email protected]anac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >Matt Giwer has singlehandedly hijacked alt.revisionism. Like the
    >proverbial frog in water slowly brought to a boil, we barely noticed
    >until our newsgroup became almost unusable. With trolls, with insults,
    >with straight-lines, with idiocy, with three-word responses, with lies,
    >and even with an occasional worthwhile point, he has buried any signal
    >that there might have been under an avalanche of noise.

    >This automated posting script keeps track of Giwer’s posting volume
    >and his success in monopolizing discussion.

    >Here are the statistics for June 1st through 9th:

    > Total number of articles posted: 1832
    > Articles from Matt Giwer: 232 (12.7%)
    > Articles mentioning Giwer: 335 (18.3%)

    > Articles per day from Giwer: 25.8
    >Articles per day mentioning Giwer: 37.2

    >Here is a graphical representation of posts from Giwer and posts
    >mentioning Giwer for these days. Each “F” represents one article
    >from Giwer; each “M” represents one additional article with the
    >string “giwer” somewhere in its header or body.

    > Jun 9: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 8: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 7: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 6: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 5: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMMMMM
    > Jun 3: FFFFFFFMMMMMM
    > Jun 2: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMM
    > Jun 1: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMMMMMM

    >It is technically possible to cut off Matt Giwer from this group.
    >However, it would not be morally proper, since he is not conducting
    >malicious forgeries, (what is usually known as) spamming, or any other
    >activities which would warrant an infringement on his freedom of speech.
    >All we can do is ignore him, and hope he gets bored and goes away.

    >NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.

    >To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile

    >For more information about Matt Giwer, see:
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

    >The EFF’s “Net Abuse and ‘Spamming’ Archive”:
    >http://ftp.eff.org/pub/Net_culture/Folklore/Spam/

    >The Net Abuse FAQ:
    >http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html

    >The Cancelmoose/NoCeM web site:
    >http://www.cm.org/

    >alt.religion.scientology and “vertical spam”:
    >http://www.bway.net/~keith/spam/spam.htm
    >http://daemon.apana.org.au/~fjc/scn/spam.html

    >The perl5 script that generates this automated posting was written by
    >Jamie McCarthy; feel free to post your comments publicly or to email
    >them to [email protected] It posts three times a week.
    >Once a week (each Monday) it cross-posts to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
    >In the interest of full disclosure, the script is available at:
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/giwer-report.pl

    What an idiot.

    I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
    Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.

    Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
    you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.

    To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
    people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
    fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
    doing and am going to do.

    To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
    of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
    the NG back on track.

    You folks can not say you were not warned. I told you what I would do
    and then I did it. Alec told you what I would do and then I did it.

    Thank you for acknowledging that poor little minus163 IQ me bested the
    Gang of Six and the rest holohugger groupies. And now you are running
    away with the “I can’t hear you” gradeschool method. Fine with me. I
    know exactly how to use that with a vengence.

    Alec will verify that one if he remembers.

    So here is another little hint for you not to believe. You can not
    simple isolate me. You have to isolate everyone who as not killfiled me
    else there will be leaks which you will look like fools for not
    answering. And this is for the lurkers, is it not? We are all self
    aggrandizing in that manner.

    But do not believe me this time. I can and will come in under another
    name that is not killfiled. You folks have proven yourselves so
    freaking dumb that I can do anything I want to show what idiots you are.

    It is no wonder you still believe in a holocaust.

    >It *is* true that even a mentally retarded person like you
    >can destroy a newsgroup – which is obviously what you’re trying
    >to do, with a certain degree of success; you don’t have to be
    >smart to destroy a newsgroup, you only have to spam it with
    >about a hundred or so similar articles per day.

    I am not destroying a newsgroup in the least. I have taken it out of
    the hands of the holohuggers and have put it back into the hands of
    revisionists so it can get back to its purpose. With any luck the NG
    will have an entirely different appearance next week.

    And if you do not like the short material I use as sigs I can not help
    that in the least. If you have a problem with it, go start a moderated
    conference of your own.

    And of course when you wish to make personal attacks like this
    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    I will respond like this.

    >Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg Gardelegen2.jpg
    >Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

    This is a fine collection.

    Gardelegen1.jpg

    12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
    stretchers.

    Gardelegen3.jpg

    Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
    intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
    print)

    Thekla2.jpg

    Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
    side of the fence.

    Gardelegen2.jpg

    Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
    intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

    Thekla1.jpg

    Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
    indications of fire.

    Thekla3.jpg

    Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
    burned.

    Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

    Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
    fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

    In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
    burned alive?

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:31 PDT 1996
    Article: 45346 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:03:17 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 40
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <4q33sg[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:05:30 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:395272 alt.politics.libertarian:177412 alt.politics.democrats.d:89693 alt.politics.usa.republican:220805 alt.politics.usa.congress:45766 alt.politics.reform:77074 alt.activism:56038 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:325730 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:25692 alt.revisionism:45346

    [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

    > You insist upon presenting things in a backwards and in fact
    > impossible order. There was absolutely ZERO harrassment of Jews
    > by Nazis before the boycott.

    >I responded:

    > Note that Mr. Giwer makes an absolute statement, but does he
    > really have any evidence? Of course not! — as his next
    > statement clearly demonstrates:

    >That next statement, from Mr. Giwer’s last post is:

    > But of course, be the latest to attempt to modify history.
    > Post the harrassment.

    >I went on:

    > So, Mr. Giwer does not know! Why doesn’t he just come out
    > and admit his ignorance?

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) does not comment on these passages.
    >Therefore, he must not be able to refute my claim that he is writing
    >from ignorance. There is no reason to continue to analyze what he
    >does write in this article, after such a totally devastating admission,
    >but I will humor him anyway.

    As you know, it is simply putting the burden of proof upon you if you
    wish to be the first to claim there was. The currently accepted first
    date of any harrassment is a one day boycott conducted on week after the
    permanent boycott started.

    Now if you wish to revise that date please be the first.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:32 PDT 1996
    Article: 45348 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:05:45 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 61
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:07:59 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Richard J. Green) writes:
    ># DvdThomas wrote:

    >[About the gas chamber in Krema I, Auschwitz main camp]

    >## This is a given. There have even been discussions here about the
    >## significance. No one questioned the existence of what is present in
    >## pictures and reports. Why do you quibble about such an obvious
    >## matter? Or is quibbling the aim?

    ># Where is Mr. Hunt’s evidence for such traces on the *outside* of
    ># homicidal gas chambers.

    >I don’t suppose he has any. But don’t expect him to retract,
    >or aplogize. He never does. He only makes jokes about Grabner.
    >That’s how he gets his kicks. He probably finds mass murder to
    >be amusing.

    >-Danny Keren.

    One tagline earns another.

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:33 PDT 1996
    Article: 45350 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: happens all the time
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:50:01 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 18
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:52:14 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Keith Morrison wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >> UNKNOWING VICTIM. Eva Langto, a San Francisco housewife, went to the
    >> Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. recently, and, as all visitors,
    >> was handed a folded card with the name and birthday of a holocaust
    >> victim. When Mrs. Langton opened her card, she was astonished to read:
    >> “Eva Heyman, February 13.” Mrs. Langton was born Eva Heyman on February
    >> 13 in Berlin

    >The point being…?

    How many others?

    Again it brings up back to how the numbers were established.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:33 PDT 1996
    Article: 45354 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:11:14 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 63
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:13:29 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Keith Morrison wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:

    > …something that had absolutely nothing to do with the
    >subject at hand, to whit his assertion that the pelvis and
    >skull were formed of a single bone each.

    >As Mr Giwer has had nothing constructive to say in
    >rebuttal, and given his prior history of never
    >admitting defeat when there was the slightest shred
    >of hope he could wiggle out of it, I would therefore
    >draw the conclusion that he has once again tacitally
    >accepted the fact that he blew it.

    >This will take the Matt Giwer lies list to, what,
    >twenty-three or more?

    Add one more distortion if you like. The fact remains that the pelvis
    and the skull are the bones most like to survive any form of cremation
    and the skull is never mentioned by those so-called eyewitnesses.

    >Matt Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an
    >ignorant boob who’s sole purpose is to act as
    >a troll, in the process imitating to a marvelous
    >extent an amoeba clad in human form. While
    >he sounds plausible until you spend all of 30
    >seconds looking it up in any reference, his
    >lack of substance and merit rapidly makes him
    >boring and repetative.

    >–
    >Keith Morrison
    >[email protected]
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:34 PDT 1996
    Article: 45356 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:44:39 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 31
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:46:54 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:

    >
    >> And what criteria did you use to determine they were recounting actual
    >> true events as they actually occurred? None of course. You never
    >> considered the stories critically at any time in you life.

    >> You have lived with completely uncritical acceptance of any and all
    >> stories all of your life.

    > We should all learn a lesson in critical analysis from Matty-poo. Why he
    >showed us just today how to analyse such data. For example, he read the
    >testimony of a nazi who claimed to have been repeatedly beaten with rifle butts,
    >pistol butts, and pistol barrels and suffered no medical effects from such beatings
    >even though he was examined just hours after they happened. Matty-poo, of
    >course, accepted them as true.

    > This should teach us an important lesson.

    >
    >> And you know that.

    > Tell us again , o master of critical analysis, about the poor little nazi who
    >was beaten with rifle butts, pistol butts and pistol barrels without medical injury.
    >Please let us know what process of critical analysis you applied.

    It is your claim there were no injuries, no mine.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:35 PDT 1996
    Article: 45358 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: David Dahlman of El Lago Texas
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:44:48 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 163
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:47:00 AM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

    >EVERYONE HATES A LECTURE

    >First and foremost. I have no problem with any of you ignoring this
    >flame war, I have ignored my share of them myself. I have no complaint
    >that none of you take Grynspan to task for spreading the addresses of
    >what Matt Giwer says are my Jew children in his messages or taglines.

    You have none. So why lie about it? No one in their right mind can
    believe that anyone is anything simply by birth. That is one of the
    most primitive supersitions of them all.

    >BUT. I do have a problem and a complaint when he does it in a subject
    >header you all can see and you say nothing about it. It is the most
    >grevious invasion of privacy anyone can do in this medium, and shows
    >them to be the sorriest pile of netscum around.
    >If you are not ashamed of yourselves for standing by to it, Im ashamed
    >for you.

    I have only repeated what YOU have PUBLICALLY stated.

    If YOU have falsely implicated the real David Dahlman then HE should sue
    your ass off to hell and gone. Excuse me, I forgot to add, and back
    again. YOU are the one who said it.

    >Secondly:

    >I have had more contact with Combase than any of you, and I have had a
    >decade of exprience with Giwer. Here’s what I know about Giwer losing
    >his provider:

    >I complained to Combase when he began putting up the names and addresses
    >of what he says are my Jew children. Combase acted like assholes.

    They were quite professional and agreed that you were a lying asshole as
    they told you.

    >Giwer put me on his mailing list and I politely asked Combase to ask him
    >to take me off. They acted like assholes.

    They agreed you were a flake and only told you to post to me and when
    you did I removed you. What is your problem with that?

    But why did you harrass them rather than emailing me first? Because you
    are a holoterrorist interested only in suppression and thought control
    like the rest of your ilk here.

    >Giwer and Combase email my Website provider with threats of ridiculous
    >lawsuits. Volant Turnpike believed the slimey assholes and I lost my
    >website even though I made all the corrections Combase asked of me.

    You did something very stupid which I told you a month ago. You have
    still not guessed what that stupid mistake was.

    A whole month and you can’t figure it out? It is really very simple,
    even for a brain dead idiot but it appears beyond your grasp.

    >After making the changes I emailed them to the onwer of Combase who
    >replied reasonably saying that if Giwer put up the street addresses of
    >my kids again, he would throw him off.

    But I did not. I put up David Dahlman’s address and you are not him so
    you lied in your complaint. You are Rack Jite not David Dahlman. So
    you lied to them.

    >Giwer put up the addresses a few days later. I forwarded them to
    >Combase. No answer.

    >Giwer put up the addresses again a week later. I forwarded them to
    >Combase. No answer.

    They were tired of your idiocy.

    >I emailed the St Petersburg Times a short paragraph with a link to my
    >Giwer.htm explaining the relationship between Combase and the
    >anti-Semitic Giwer. I received a prompt short “we will look into it”
    >reply.

    Guess what. They did not. They have real problems to look into like
    overflowing storm drains.

    >The same day Giwer puts up the addresses again. I forward it to Combase.
    >No answer.

    >Two days later Giwer is at Netcom.

    They were ignoring you, idiot. Do you really not understand what boil
    on the ass of El Lago you really are?

    >Those are the facts, only what I personally know of it. But here’s the
    >logical and probable scenerio:

    >The owner of Combase finally told Giwer to stop with the addresses or
    >else.

    Actually it was the harrassment your fellow holohuggers were committing
    to the point that it interfered with business that resulted in the
    decision. You had nothing whatsoever to do with it. They saw you as a
    lying asshole from the beginning and told me so.

    >Giwer emails his friend Alec Grynspan to have him put the address of the
    >Jew children for him which Grynspan does time and again.

    He showed up all on his own. Never contacted him in any manner.

    >A few people in alt.revisionism start emailing combase about Giwer
    >spaming the Wannase document.

    >The St Petersburg Times calls Combase.

    >Combase finally has enough of his sorry act and Giwers on Netcom the
    >next day.

    Never happened.

    >What Giwer does of course, is find a group of Jews and taunts them, they
    >fall for his crap and play the data game with him which is exactly what
    >he wants so he can post his 50 responses a day.

    McVay is now a Jew?

    >Enter a liberal

    Wilson would shit on you and then find a place to discrete dispose of
    your body, like on the Mall, on a gibbet, until the pidgeons can’t find
    anything to eat.

    who is loud and kicks it back on the Right in like
    >manner, which Giwer and many others hate very very much. Liberals are
    >suppose to munch lettuce under their beds and politely respond with non
    >polemic tedium. So when one does start kicking it back, it is not
    >unusual, or unexpected, for someone as totally disgusting as Giwer to
    >sent death threats, post murder for hire messages, or shove up what he
    >suspects are the names and home addresses of Jewish children.

    >But what is unusual, and far more repulsive, is when a JEW by the name
    >of Alec Grynspan, jumps in bed with this anti-Semite and a host of other
    >bigots and liberal haters and does their bidding for them by posting the
    >suspected addresses of Jewish children on the net. He is indeed, the
    >most egomanical, control freak, netcop and backstabbing pathological
    >liar I ever come across in or out of this medium.

    >That no one will address his rot does not bode well of the Jewish
    >community in this newsgroup, politics aside.

    >So I leave you to Giwer who will keep pulling your data buttons just
    >like he wants and to Alec Grynspan who will tell you over and over again
    >about how he is a holocaust surviver, has killed people with his bare
    >hands, has the biggest this, the fastest that, the most staff, the best
    >employees, the largest brain and, who as the Ayn Rand Libertarian he is,
    >keep telling you he is a Liberal.

    >Good luck, you deserve them both. 🙂

    And the raving gets into full swing.

    You are no different from all the other holohuggers.

    Paranoid and terminally stupid.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:36 PDT 1996
    Article: 45359 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:27:14 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 67
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:29:28 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

    >In article ,
    >[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >>It’s probably beyond him. This is one of the “66 Q&A,” which means that
    >>this claim of Giwer’s has been refuted for a bit over six months:
    >>
    >>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar03.html
    >>
    >>Giwer makes a point of searching Nizkor to find errors. Obviously, if
    >>he ever stumbles across the truth there, he ignores it.

    >Interesting – the results, that is. So far, he’s found one
    >error, in a citation from the Tusa’s book. Perhaps, with
    >another year or two, he may locate another one, who knows?
    >Stranger things have happened.

    >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
    >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
    >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
    >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
    >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
    >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
    >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
    >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
    >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s
    >special newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be
    >appropriately ignored.

    >–
    >Nizkor Canada – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    >FTP Canada: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
    >FTP Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)……unlearn
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:37 PDT 1996
    Article: 45360 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:19:19 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 51
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:21:32 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >>>Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
    >>>common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
    >>>some witnesses calling this gel ‘crystal’, but yourself called the
    >>>diatomite ‘kaolinite’, an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
    >>>that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
    >>>silica gel if you want.
    >
    >> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
    >>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.

    >Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?

    Would you care to post your evidence for the existance of those other
    letters? Be the first.

    Surprise but that is not where the B comes from.

    >> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
    >>chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
    >>other value.

    >>>You certainly never saw Zyklon carried by diatomaceous earth, but
    >>>decided that only chemical reactions could explain a blue color.

    >>>Sky is blue and air isn’t. Do you want to prove us that the sky is
    >>>white ?

    >> It will take much more time than I care to spend to explain Rayleigh
    >>scattering to you even if you had the background to understand it.

    >I certainly don’t know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
    >never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
    >”Dr” Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh’s effect is, you certainly know
    >why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you’re so clever, I will
    >waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
    >colors.

    I am fully aware of scattering. Now would you like to so me the
    equations that will demonstrate that that is the source of the blue
    coloring? No? But you must have run them to determine that is the
    cause so why will you not post them?

    I see, you guessed. Thank you.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:38 PDT 1996
    Article: 45361 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Holohugger needed
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:22:18 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 54
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:24:32 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Keith Morrison wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >> [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <[email protected]>,
    >> >[email protected] whines:
    >>
    >> > Holohuggers have different ideas of what constitutes their
    >> > holocausts. But they are more than willing to start in with the
    >> > name calling even only things they have flatly wrong.
    >>
    >> >As if “holohugger” is not a prime example of name calling! As if Mr.
    >> >Giwer has ever disproved a single facet of Holocaust history!
    >>
    >> If you have a better one word name, I will consider using it. Absent
    >> that, I will continue.

    >How about “literate”?

    >–
    >Keith Morrison
    >[email protected]

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:38 PDT 1996
    Article: 45362 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:24:45 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 151
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 2:27:03 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
    >>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
    >>
    >> You should have left this to someone following the discussion.

    > You are not following the discussion? To whom should I have left it?

    >>>In article <[email protected]>,
    >>>Matt Giwer wrote:
    >>>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>Deception alert! If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is
    >>>>>>>>>>>fat, then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories. Mr. Giwer has
    >>>>>>>>>>>no justification to multiply this number by .1.
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
    >>>>>>>>>>the remaining 10% as fat. Thus the justification.
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>And with 75% of water, what would you say ? Some justification to 90%
    >>>>>>>instead of 75% (65% is more often admitted) ? Do you even have a clue,
    >>>>>>>somewhat that the fat is concerned with the water’s rate ?
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>> The floor is yours, Dr. Green.
    >>>>
    >>>>>> It was an AGREED upon place to start from when WE started this
    >>>>>>some months ago. Would you like to start over with different
    >>>>>>agree upon assumptions? If you, you first.
    >>>>
    >>>>>I don’t agree. You understimated the amount of water, what is 65-70%
    >>>>>for extracellular and at most 80%.
    >>>>
    >>>>>The fat is estimated with several ways, and the 18% from Mr Green is
    >>>>>among the lowest, and didn’t suppose that some water was mixed with
    >>>>>it. With isotopics methods you can have near twice this number.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which in any event would result in 18% of 20%. He objected to
    >>>>that multiplication as you know if you were reading the thread. He, on
    >>>>the other hand and in light of where we started, wanted both 10% (here
    >>>>20%) non-water AND 18% fat.
    >>
    >>> Deceptive figuring. The calorie value of fat is computed on the
    >>>weight with the water in it.
    >>
    >>> I will type this very slowly for Mr. Giwer’s benefit.
    >>
    >>> If you take one gram of the white stuff from the side of your raw
    >>>steak, that includes the water and all.
    >>
    >>> When you burn it, you get whatever the calorie value of a gram of fat
    >>>is regardless of what the percentage of water in that gram is.
    >>
    >>> You are not entitled to take the energy value of a gram of fat with
    >>>the water in, then pretend that this is really the energy value per gram
    >>>for waterless fat. To compute caloric value, you may not reduce the
    >>>amount of fat by 82%. Or if you do, you must multiply its energy output
    >>>per unit of mass by 1/.18 = 5.56. Mr. Giwer is changing the definition
    >>>of “fat” in the middle of the game in order to pull a fast one.
    >>
    >> The game started with either 80 or 90% water. Of the remaining, only
    >>20% or 10% only say 20% of that can be fat in the human body.

    > Fine. But the fat in that definition of fat has a calorie value of
    >approximately 48,000 calories per gram. The total energy frm fat, you
    >see, remains the same. But (see below) we can postpone this part of the
    >discussion while we work on something else which should be easier to agree
    >on.

    >>> Down in my refrigerator I have a package of Polish sausage. One link
    >>>is 85g. Fat grams are listed as 22. Thus it is 25.9% fat. Pretending no
    >>>water is introduced during the sausage making process,
    >>
    >> And rather than be interested in added water in your sausage,
    >>consider the blood was drained from the animal before processing. Call
    >>it a wash for the meat part.
    >>
    >>if this is Mr.
    >>>Giwer’s “waterless” fat, that makes the sausage at most 74.1% water not
    >>>counting the protein, etc. Pretty dehydrated cow.
    >>
    >> You sausage also lacks bones.

    > Bones also lack water relative to meat and fat. Lack of bones would
    >increase the percentage of water, not decrease it. Oops there.

    >>> Clearly this fat counts the water in it. Fat calories are listed as
    >>>190, but dietary calories are really kilocalories so we have 190,000
    >>>calories in 22g of waterlogged fat = 8636 cal/g.
    >>
    >> Fat is added to sausage in the form ground fat, so by weight it
    >>still contains water. Thus by weight, it still contains water.

    > Very good. You now agree that fat (in the sense of the white stuff on
    >the side of your steak, or what is ground into the sausage, which is what
    >the nutritionists measure) _does_ contain water. So you cannot subtract
    >all water from the body, including the water from the fat, then compute
    >the weight of dehydrated fat but use an energy value per gram as if it
    >were hydrated.

    > But once again (see below) we don’t have to come to an agreement on
    >this point right now. It can wait.

    >>> Call it 90% water, multiply by .1 to get 2.2g of dehydrated fat, but
    >>>unless you claim the ability to burn water and get energy out of it,
    >>>according to the observant Jews at Hebrew National that 2.2g of dehydrated
    >>>fat still clocks in at 190,000 calories. I can not change that and
    >>>neither can Mr. Superscientist. Unless he thinks those non-atheist Jews
    >>>are lying to the goyim at the FDA.
    >>
    >> But I can find the right inputs and then be able to make the correct
    >>calculations.

    > Then please do so.

    > The amount of energy needed to deal with the water is independent of
    >the amount of energy in the body. We do not have to agree right now on
    >how many calories there are in a human body in order to figure out how
    >many calories are needed. In order to answer the question of whether the
    >body supplies enough calories, when burned, to repay the energy used to
    >ignite it, we must compute the ignition energy. Without that, we have no
    >way of knowing if the calories available (whatever they are) would be
    >sufficient. Correct?

    > So take a 70kg person as your input. Is 85% water an acceptable
    >assumption? Compute the number of calories required to deal with the
    >water in cremating a corpse. You have claimed you can do this
    >calculation. Please proceed. Show all your work. After you have given
    >your number and the computations you used to arrive at that number, I will
    >either agree to it and we can then work on the second half – finding the
    >number of calories actually obtained by burning an average 70kg corpse –
    >or I will tell you why I disagree.

    >[Remainder deleted to be dealt with after Mr. Giwer shows the computation
    >he has said he knows how to do.]

    Why do you not show me how to do it. Post you calculations.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:39 PDT 1996
    Article: 45363 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Greenie lies again
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:27:47 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 138
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:30:02 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    To ROOT: Erase this. It is another of many invented issues for the
    purpose of harrassing me out of the internet.

    To the others, here is another very transparent attempt by this
    holohugging slime to create a pretext to silence me. He mailed me the
    first and then used my question as to what it was all about to claim it
    was posted again as documented in this newsgroup by the complete posting
    of all of the correspondence.

    Of course the holohuggers encourage all the free speech they have yet to
    be able to suppress.

    Greenie is a liar and he knows it and only the truly mentally disabled
    will continue to support him.

    Return-Path:
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    Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Richard James Green
    Message-Id: <[email protected]>
    To: [email protected], [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Repeated Spam
    References:
    <[email protected]>

    <[email protected]>
    Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

    Matt Giwer has been posting the following spam repeatedly and out of
    context. I urge him to cease and desist. A copy is being sent to
    [email protected] for their reference. Free speech works two ways:
    Mr. Giwer is free to post and I am free to complain.

    Others are free to complain too; I suggest that they do.

    In article <[email protected]>,
    wrote:

    > The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
    >Exposure has swung into action.
    >
    >1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
    >per day for Treblinka.
    >
    > But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
    >today’s slightly less absurd numbers.
    >
    >2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
    >August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: “Quicker, quicker, carry
    >out the whole program!” Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
    >bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
    >”Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too.”
    >
    > Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
    >of his doubles because he was never near the place.
    >
    >3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
    >6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.
    >
    > Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.
    >
    >4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
    >submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”
    >
    > Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.
    >
    >5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
    >even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.
    >
    > Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
    >more
    >
    >Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
    >says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”
    >
    > The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.
    >
    >6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
    >meters!
    >
    > Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
    >human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
    >matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
    >reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?
    >
    > Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
    >people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
    >could form five high human pyramids.
    >
    >7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
    >according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
    >takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.
    >
    > And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
    >oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
    >exhaust.
    >
    >8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
    >about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
    >especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
    >the Nazis bad stock.
    >
    > It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
    >million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.
    >
    >9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
    >clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high
    >
    > Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
    >piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
    >for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.
    >
    >10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
    >where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
    >in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
    >children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.quote>
    >
    > A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
    >fetish.
    >
    >
    >

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:40 PDT 1996
    Article: 45364 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:00:43 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 111
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:02:58 PM CDT 1996
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    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:45364 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55465

    [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

    >[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

    >> Ah, statistics!
    >>
    >> It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
    >> of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
    >> and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
    >> Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
    >> and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
    >> default. (Graber made me do it!!)

    >You’ve missed the point. Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
    >declared their intentions to be:

    > making this a “spam conference” [1];

    This was a comment of mine in response to specific threat of theirs to
    duplicate everything I post in the conference. Thus they were the ones
    making the threat. I merely put a name to the consequences of such a
    threat.

    > responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];

    I do not do that, as you know.

    > posting under fake names to dodge peoples’ killfiles [3];

    This appears to be an issue with the outgoing news servers at Netcom not
    all using the same user name, sometime the name I use, sometimes my
    addr. However, there appear to be only three. You would think these
    mavens could master three different names.

    > or, my favorite:

    > “making it” (this newsgroup) “useless” to anyone who would
    > challenge revisionist dogma [4].

    That is not what is said.

    What I did say is that it could be made useless to the mind control
    freaks who have been intent upon making a conference on revisionism
    useless to people who want to talk about revisionism.

    You folks have not only been doing that for years with personal insults
    and harrassment including harrassment of people’s families but you have
    bragged about doing so. You have bragged about driving people out of
    the conference.

    You folks have publically posted about email planning as to the best way
    to get people to leave the conference.

    I would say you folks should be the last stuck pigs to complain.

    >They do not proudly refer to their postings as “barrages” [5]. They do
    >not brag about being able to “make this conference do anything they
    >want” [6].

    >But I guess that must have slipped your mind.

    >In short, the difference is that McVay and Keren are not flagrant
    >net abusers. The statistics are not about whether Mr. Giwer _is_ a
    >flagrant net abuser; they are only reports on how _successful_ he is.

    >1. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03
    >2. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/the-longer-my-tagline
    >3. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02
    >4. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless
    >5. http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/five-day-barrage
    >6. >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.01

    You fail to note in public that the files on Nizkor are heavily censored
    and altered to conceal the original intent and meaning of the posts.

    You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
    prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

    You fail to note the years of spamming the exact same messages on the
    conference by members of Nizkor.

    You fail to note that the posts to this conference are in fact one more
    attempt to prevent discussion of revisionism as an attempt to silence
    me.

    Beyond that, you have told the full and complete truth.

    >Just for kicks, I ran the script on them anyway, for June 1st – 15th.

    You fail to note that you needed a lot of help to do this.

    You fail to note that these were in response to what was posted on the
    conference. Which of course is your objective, to stop responses to
    what you folks post. You brag so much about stopping others from doing
    so.

    Jamie, me boy, you folks are simply getting a dose of what you have been
    doing to others and bragging about for years.

    Now that it has happened to you, you squeal like the stuck pigs you
    really are. You folks on alt.revisionism is notorious for doing what I
    describe. It will come as a surprise to no one.

    You folks have bluntly referred to it as “our conference” but no one
    owns an alt conference. Now you have learned that.

    You are a liar, Jamie. I can not change that. You can change that.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:41 PDT 1996
    Article: 45365 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: An interesting point
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:30:21 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 56
    Message-ID: <[email protected]com.com>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:32:36 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    > wrote:
    >>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
    >>>Mr. Stein, this Giwer Troll does not care how honest you are.
    >>
    >> If he were there would be no issue.

    > I have on several occasions posted quotations and DejaNews URLs to
    >prove Mr. Giwer a liar. I have neither the right nor the means to prevent
    >him from returning the favor any time he thinks such evidence exists. So
    >far he has posted none. Why do you suppose that could be?

    > Errors? Yes, I have made some. I will undoubtedly make more. When
    >called to my attention, I will publicly apologize and retract. That is as
    >honest as I know how to be. Speaking of which, I think I do owe one to
    >Mr. Giwer: I made the same mistake as Dr. Bilik about _why_ he made the
    >statement about HCN from burning coke. Of course, Mr. Giwer has made
    >countless mistakes (at least) in his statements about what other people
    >have said.
    >–
    >Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
    >POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
    >Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:41 PDT 1996
    Article: 45366 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:32:19 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 66
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:34:33 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:
    >>
    >>
    >> Are you really so uncritical a thinker that you can not see the problems
    >> with either description?

    > Now it takes a real critical thinker like Matty-poo to determine that a
    >man could be repeated beaten with rifle butts, pistol butts and pistol barrels and
    >not suffer any injuries.

    >> ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
    >> entrances to the four-story
    >> house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
    >> the same people were
    >> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
    >> had to be transferred to one
    >> place in the courtyard. ”
    >> IMT VII – p.491.

    > But matty-poo you told us that trial transcripts are only in Q&A format.
    >This can’t be from the source that you cited. By your own statement you are
    >relying on a paraphrase from a seconadary source.

    I see. Different rules for thee and me.

    > I know this will disappoint you because — with your abnormal
    >pyschosexual hang-ups — get some perverted thrill out of repeating this, but, to
    >paraphrase you:

    > You ain’t got jack shit, asshole.

    And you don’t have a holocaust.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 17:16:42 PDT 1996
    Article: 45367 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:33:18 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 58
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 4:35:32 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:
    ># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >## No, it is the trial transcript.

    ># You gave a book title. That is not a trial transcript.

    >The book “The Belsen Trial” contains the trial’s transcript.
    >That is a fact. There’s nothing you can do about it. It
    >contains the speeches of the prosecution and the defense,
    >the questions the witnesses were asked, and their answers,
    >as well as some affidavits.

    >It also contains these photographs that you like to drool
    >over, but that’s a different matter.

    I agree you are working from a derivative source as though it were an
    original source.

    >-Danny Keren.

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:25 PDT 1996
    Article: 45372 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:25:58 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 69
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:28:15 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> [email protected] whines:
    >>
    >> What an asshole.
    >>
    >> Mr. Giwer is still lamenting the loss of his mop handle, I see.
    >>
    >>
    >> You really believe this nonsense.
    >>
    >> Not at all! I never believe any nonsense that Mr. Giwer writes.
    >>
    >>
    >> Grow up and get a life.
    >>
    >> I am hurt! I truly am.
    >>
    >> By the way, I do have a life, which is why I do not respond to every
    >> lie that Mr. Giwer is pleased to post.
    >>
    >>
    >> What an asshole.
    >>
    >> Time for Mr. Giwer to get help for his anal fixation.

    >Or a bigger mop….

    >Mark

    >——————————————————————————–
    >”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
    >not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
    >right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

    >– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
    >——————————————————————————–
    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:27 PDT 1996
    Article: 45375 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!reeve.research.aa.wl.com!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:45:25 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 57
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-07.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 2:47:27 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    ># How old was Elie Wiesel when he saw those geysers of blood?

    >If you could read, you’d know he didn’t claim to see them
    >himself, but was quoting a witness.

    >Quoted from Reitlinger’s “The Final Solution”:

    > In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs,
    > was driving with Blobel towards a country villa outside Kiev used by
    > Major-General Thomas, the Security Police Commander.* At the Babi
    > Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions which threw up columns of
    > earth. It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of
    > bodies, and Blobel explained: ‘Here my Jews are buried.’

    >

    And who was recording and taking notes of this conversation? No one?
    Very good. Another unimpeachable holocaust source.

    >This is a more accurate description. “Earth mixed with blood”
    >would have, indeed, been more accurate.

    Right. The biggest farts ever.

    But it is interesting to see that you do truly believe Jewish blood is
    different from human blood from your imaginary but “more accurate”
    description.

    >-Danny Keren.

    Are you really so uncritical a thinker that you can not see the problems
    with either description?

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

    ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
    entrances to the four-story
    house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
    the same people were
    forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
    had to be transferred to one
    place in the courtyard. ”
    IMT VII – p.491.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:27 PDT 1996
    Article: 45376 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!reeve.research.aa.wl.com!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:46:37 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 16
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-07.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 2:48:40 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:

    ># You have a derivative source not the trial transcript.

    >No, it is the trial transcript.

    You gave a book title. That is not a trial transcript.

    Trial transcripts are in Q and A format.

    You ain’t got jack.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:28 PDT 1996
    Article: 45379 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Nizkor: Frauds are us
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:40:43 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 96
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:43:00 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >I can only suggest that people look at the photos and decide
    >for themselves. As for Giwer, it’s quite obvious he’s soon going
    >to claim that the people in the Belsen photographs are not
    >really dead. That’s how he gets his kicks.

    >One could also read the relevant part in Abzug’s “Inside the
    >Vicious Heart”.

    >The photos of the people burned alive in the Thekla and
    >Gardelegen atrocities are at

    >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming
    >ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/
    >ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

    >Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg
    >Gardelegen2.jpg Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

    And while people are looking I hope they keep in mind that EVEN IF they
    decide they can see signs of burning that that has nothing whatsoever to
    do with the cause of death, which is the claim in this case.

    This is a fine collection.

    Gardelegen1.jpg

    12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
    stretchers.

    Gardelegen3.jpg

    Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
    intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
    print)

    Thekla2.jpg

    Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
    side of the fence.

    Gardelegen2.jpg

    Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
    intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

    Thekla1.jpg

    Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
    indications of fire.

    Thekla3.jpg

    Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
    burned.

    Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

    Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
    fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

    In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
    burned alive?

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Those Polish spies again
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT

    Anyone want to explain this one?

    ” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
    built in for mass
    extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being
    led to the bath-house, the
    doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor
    was electrified in a
    special way; there they were killed. ”
    IMT VII – p.576-577.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:29 PDT 1996
    Article: 45381 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:54:23 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 40
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 7:56:38 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] (RuthSommer) writes:

    ># That has got to be one of the most incredible and
    ># rediculous stories I have ever heard – being able to tell from
    ># the smoke and flames coming out of a chimney, which bodies
    ># were being burned and where they came from.

    >Of course, the “which” and “where” are only used here to
    >mislead, right?

    >The original claim was that it was possible to tell apart
    >whether emaciated people or people with a normal body weight
    >were being cremated.

    >Can you rule this out? Why? On what grounds? The eye and the
    >nose are very sensitive.

    No smoke at all. Is that good enough for you?

    Remember, these were standard design crematoria that were in cities all
    over Germany. Sure, very sensitive noses in cities, right?

    >What do you think, BTW, about the storiee regarding the bombing
    >of Dresden?

    >People turning into “fine, gray ashes”, and “melting into
    >puddles 3-4 foot deep”, although fire didn’t even touch
    >them, or “glowing orange and blue and turning into cinders”,
    >or whatever.

    >Will you also ridicule these stories? I guess not.

    There is physical evidence of the fire bombing of Dresden. There is no
    physical evidence for you gassing stories.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:30 PDT 1996
    Article: 45385 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:13:12 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 44
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pkm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:15:27 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >>>I’ms curious to see why the Cracow’s report is worthless. I suppose
    >>>it’s because it shows clearly by contrast the poor quality of the
    >>>Leuchter’s report.

    >> It is really very simple. Their baseline was samples from places that
    >>were likely fumigated “once or never.” They failed to discriminate
    >>between the two. For all they knew all of their samples were were from
    >>places never fumigated. And thus they had no HCN exposure baseline.

    >Sorry, they had a baseline (analysing a material without CN- for
    >sensitivity) and the Gasskammers (in some places with three repeated
    >blind measurements) were positive.

    I still have the original post. It said “once or never” for the
    baseline. Those results were negative. Thus they can represent never.
    Thus it is useless.

    >> Beyond that, I have yet to see any analysis of the quality of the
    >>Leuchter report. All I have seen are personal attacks upon Leuchter
    >>which has nothing to do with the report. It has been like attacking
    >>relativity because the theory came from a patent examiner.

    >> But perhaps you could post an analysis of Leuchter’s report that is not
    >>a personal attack upon Leuchter. Perhaps you would do that analysis
    >>yourself? Or post someone else’s. It doesn’t matter to me.

    >It’s easy: if you pick some pieces where blue prussian is visible
    >(thus, no blind) you are very likely to find it, and in other places,
    >when you pick anywhere any white piece you’re likely to not find blue
    >prussian (the only component looked for).

    That is not how he describes his method. How do you know?

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:31 PDT 1996
    Article: 45386 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Gerstein confesses
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:16:28 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 28
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:18:45 PM PDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >>4/26/45:
    >> The date SS officer Kurt Gerstein’s first two (of at least six)
    >>”confessions.” Confession 1 is
    >> handwritten in French. Confession 2 is typewritten in French, dated
    >>April 26, 1945 (also
    >> presented as Nuernberg document PS-1553; rejected by the IMT but
    >>accepted by the
    >> AMT!). Confession 3 is typewritten in German and is dated May 4,
    >>1945. Confession 4 is
    >> handwritten in French, dated May 6, 1945. Confession 5 is
    >>typewritten in French, dated May
    >> 6, 1945. And Confession 6 is typewritten in German, dated May 6,
    >>1945. Also, there are
    >> three distinct versions of Confession 5.

    >Please see the dates: April to May 6. Gerstein is dead in Paris at
    >July 25.

    >His testimony **was** accepted in Nuremberg: PS 1553, (French) RF-350.

    Which one?

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:32 PDT 1996
    Article: 45387 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:17:32 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 35
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
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    [email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

    >>>Mr Giwer, you don’t seem to consider my own experience, perhaps
    >>>because I’m an always lying ‘holohugger’.

    >>But if you can take some
    >>>moments to read the Samson’s memories, the Parisian headman under the
    >>>French Terror, you will read that men, and not only women when dying,
    >>>were often screaming, crying, aso. Obviously there was no pain before
    >>>the victims were guillotined. But since he killed only some thousands
    >>>of victims, his memory (published in the 19th century) was perhaps
    >>>faked by the Soviets one century later.

    >> I would rather look to the gazetteers of the day. I would also look
    >>towards the desire to sell any other written material at the time. The
    >>French Revolution was unprecedented in world history (despite French
    >>claims the US did it first) and viewed by other countries as something
    >>in need of containment, very like the “threat of international
    >>communism” was up until a few years ago. I would not be surprised at
    >>anything that would increase sympathy for the nobility.

    >Well, if you’re unable to read historical statements, give a look on
    >the TV’s recent movies on the Manchester’s bombing, and say if no men
    >were screaming.

    You mean in pain? I have not objected to that.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:33 PDT 1996
    Article: 45388 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:34:19 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 48
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 5:36:33 PM CDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    > wrote:
    >> What an idiot.
    >>
    >> I told you folks I would do what you have now “discovered” months later.
    >>Alec told you what I would do. And you choose to ignore it.
    >>
    >> Now that you have noticed I really can do what you were told I can do
    >>you propose a course of action that is rather counter productive.
    >>
    >> To wit, I will flay alive your holocaust alive even more quickly if
    >>people follow your suggestion. But PLEASE do not believe me. I love a
    >>fair fight. That is why I handicap you folks by telling you what I am
    >>doing and am going to do.
    >>
    >> To recap, what I have done is put this conference back to a discussion
    >>of revision rather than the orthodox who managed to take it over. I put
    >>the NG back on track.

    > Excuse me, but I must be missing something. Other “revisionists” have
    >posted here – Greg Raven, Tim McCarthy, Fritz Berg, Bradley Smith, Ross
    >Vicksell, et al. And their claims have been addressed. They seem to have
    >given it up. The only other ones currently left on any regular basis are
    >J. F. Beaulieu, Tom Moran, Jeff Roberts, and Al Baron.

    And I have read you folks bragging about driving them off. That is what
    you are missing.

    > So now the posting volume has increased. If that is your definition
    >of “winning,” then Tom Moran could have done the same long ago.
    >Congratulations, you are smarter than he is.

    It is not my definition. You certainly read McCarthy’s message. I got
    a similar one from McFly by email. They obvious had talked it over.

    > But “discussion” of revision? You have made an assertion about the
    >amount of coke needed for cremation. And several people have tried to sit
    >down with you (including myself) and discuss it with you, getting down to
    >hard numbers. You seem to keep changing the ground rules and avoid
    >getting down to calculations. What kind of a discussion is that? What
    >kind of scientist is that?

    I have yet to see you folks post any calcualtions. When are you going
    to get around to do so?

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:33 PDT 1996
    Article: 45393 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:49:27 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 32
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 7:51:43 PM CDT 1996
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    [email protected] (RuthSommer) wrote:

    >That has got to be one of the most incredible and rediculous stories I
    >have ever heard –
    >being able to tell from the smoke and flames coming out of a chimney,
    >which bodies
    >were being burned and where they came from.

    >Why aren’t these kinds of stories questioned, laughed at, rejected, and
    >ridiculed,
    >more often? Are there unspoken rules being applied here, that prohibit
    >this?

    >This censorship thing is amazing. If a Jew says something, it cannot be
    >questioned.
    >That’s what I infer from all this. And how much eyewitness testimony from
    >the
    >Holocaust is similarly unquestioningly accepted, like this smoke and
    >flames nonsense?

    A posted a couple dozen equal absurdities only a week ago.

    Those and a few other things are what caused the change.

    They must be very powerful things.

    Giving them wider distribution would certainly appear to be helpful.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:34 PDT 1996
    Article: 45394 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:12:15 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 54
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:14:28 PM CDT 1996
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    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55491 alt.revisionism:45394

    [email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
    >>[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:
    >>
    >>> >singlehandedly
    >>>
    >>> I don’t believe this is true. Posts “from Matt Giwer” have come from more
    >>> than one machine at once. They’ve got at least two Windows boxes, one
    >>> configured with a WinGate proxy server and “From: [email protected]
    >>> (Matt Giwer)”, the other a WinGate client and “From: [email protected]
    >>> [no GCOS name].
    >>
    >>Rich, for those of us who don’t know what WinGate is, could you explain
    >>what this means?
    >>
    >>Is it logical to conclude that Giwer has a friend, or multiple friends,
    >>using his account? Are the client and server necessarily on the same LAN,
    >>or could a client anywhere on the internet access his server?

    >The easiest tool for what he seems to be doing, and a likely suspect given
    >his son’s job, is Adrien de Croy’s WinGate, a proxy server for Windows
    >95/NT (some people improperly call it a router). Basically, it lets you
    >connect multiple computers to the Internet through one SLIP/PPP
    >connection. See http://www.windows95.com/connect/lansing.html

    I have noticed this myself. In fact all that it is, is that netcom has
    multiple outgoing news servers and they are not set the same. There
    appear to be only three variants.

    What these people are trying to do is create, out of whole cloth, a case
    that I am abusing the net.

    The situation is that some years ago there was an organized effort by at
    least six people to take over alt.revisionism in order to prevent
    revisionism to be discussed. They brag about having driven off everyone
    who tries to discuss revisionism.

    They use any method open to them. They start with simple verbal abuse
    which one has to expect in an alt conference. But then it goes to
    harrassing people ISP, the person personally, and even their families.
    All of this happened in my case.

    These people are the real scum of the earth.

    This thread in this newsgoup is merely one more attempt to get me to
    stop posting.

    There is no truth to it. They are merely presenting information in a
    false light so as to make it appear that I am doing something improper.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:35 PDT 1996
    Article: 45397 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: The obvious question (was: The full story of the reconstruction)
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:51:09 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 39
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 3:53:24 PM PDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:
    >>
    >>
    >> As you will remember the evil Nazis actually introduced mosquito born
    >> malaria in their medical experiments. However, diseases resulting from
    >> poor quality water are not so easily explainable.

    > Then how do you explain them if the camps were “well run?”

    >> Nor is the lack of tuberculosis so easily explained under the reported
    >> conditions. Nor are any of the other diseases which transmit before
    >> there are symptoms.

    > According to Larson’s report, tuberculosis was a major medical problem in
    >those he examined.

    >> Nor are the illnesses people are suseptable when malnourished and
    >> exposed to low temperature so easy to explain by their absense. Flu,
    >> even the common cold, followed by incurable at the time pneumonia for
    >> example.

    > P&I was epidemic at the camps.

    > In short, Matty-poo you are making it up again. Please give me one
    >source that states there was no P&I, dysentery, or tuberculosis at the camps. All
    >were epidemic. It’s time to make up a new story, Matty-poo. Why not try this one:

    > There are no reports of rabid animals at the camps, so this proves the
    >nazis were nice guys who allowed the inmated to have healthy pets>

    Just when I was getting in the mood to go along with you folks you have
    me back to wondering how anyone survived even without gassing. Now we
    are back to people dropping like flies from all manner of diseases. And
    this time it is official as I have been told it by a holohugger.

    Thanks.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:36 PDT 1996
    Article: 45404 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
    Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:19:39 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 28
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-60.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 9:21:56 PM CDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

    >> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
    >> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic

    >David Irving “concedes” that at least 4 million died. Do try
    >and get your stories straight.

    >> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
    >> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
    >> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
    >> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount

    >Interestingly, the SS didn’t seem to have a problem with
    >starvation… the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can
    >Mr. Beaulieu address that issue?

    This of course belongs in alt.revisionism.

    However, as you know, the plump refers to women who were hired by the SS
    to work in the camps. They are generally described as prostitutes and
    other low life. It is difficult to understand why the idea of sex for
    food never occurred to you.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:37 PDT 1996
    Article: 45410 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.xnet.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: An interesting point
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:30:59 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 81
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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    [email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

    >On Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:23:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:01:12 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >[snip]
    >
    >>>> As for your foolish ethical claim, you know because, eyewitnesses have
    >>>>said it, that the ashes were used on icy sidewalks and the like.
    >>>>Therefore an appeal to ethics is a specious arguement.
    >>
    >>>No. Your reply is specious because you misread “inmates” for
    >>>”inhabitants.” There was nothing ethical about te SS treatment of
    >>>their victims.
    >>
    >> Your ethical claim is still bullshit.

    >Actually, going over the previous posts in this thread I notice that
    >Mike Curtis said that “ethics didn’t enter into the picture very
    >much,” and I said, as above, that “there was nothing ethical about the
    >SS treatment of their victims.”

    >The thread is still intact on my server, and I can’t see where anyone
    >has claimed that the SS built crematoria for ethical reasons. The
    >closest anyone came to making that sort of claim was Mr. Stein when he
    >said that it may have been hard for the planners to break out of
    >conventional ways of thinking about how to dispose of bodies.

    >So what is it, exactly, that you are complaining about?

    There was a claim that people would still have respect for the dead.
    That is belied by the claim of using human ashes on ice.

    The “conventional” ways of thinking is belied by the open pit BBQs.

    All of these excuses are to get around the failue to use the camp
    incinerators or to simply build incinerators instead of the slower, more
    costly, and more expensive crematoria.

    >>>> But you know that. Rather you would ignore that point and slander me
    >>>>like the holohugger you really are.

    >>>Still name-calling. I see.

    >> Holohugger is a legitimate acronym I have yet to read any other term
    >>suggested. I’ll will consider using “righteous” or “self-annoited” if
    >>that will make you feel better.

    >”Holohugger” is not an acronym at all. “Nato” is an acronym; “Unesco”
    >is an acronym. But let it pass.

    Would you prefer neologism?

    >> What would you suggest as a name?

    >That has always been a problem. “Historian” is no good. Mr. Curtis
    >has, I gather, some formal training in history, and I am paid for
    >research in a history department, but I don’t have the formal
    >credentials, and I don’t know that there are any other historians
    >posting regularly to the newsgroup. I’m not to fond of the term
    >Ehrlich606 used,–“conventionalist”–but it beats “exterminationist”
    >which I rather think would apply to someone who was actively
    >advocating extermination, someone like the H*bers or James ebbs.
    >Labels are so restrictive in some ways, don’t you think? For myself,
    >conventionalist is not the preferred choice because I do have some
    >unconventional ideas about the Holocaust.

    >As for me personally, you could call me John, or if you wanted to be
    >formal, Mr. Morris.

    How about “totalitarian thought control gestapo?” That way we can make
    you happy and call them TTCG.

    But if you noted the genesis of the term, you will note that Jews is
    always the first term used. In response some token goyim are named.
    Therefore a term to encompass them all is needed.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:38 PDT 1996
    Article: 45415 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:15:44 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 51
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:17:59 PM CDT 1996
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    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >For God’s sake, now this retard is starting to spam with
    >articles about his spamming!!

    >There’s no escape…

    Now what are you talking about? Nothing again? But of course there is
    another campaign starting to harrass my new service provider.

    Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
    anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.

    A strong back must be a terrible thing to waste.

    >–
    >In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
    >suggested that documents about a “gas chamber” and “gassing cellar”
    >in the Birkenau crematoriums didn’t count, as they were really due
    >to “a morbid sense of humor” of the SS men who authored the documents.

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:38 PDT 1996
    Article: 45421 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Nizkor: Breakfast for Champions
    Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:16:11 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 33
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-07.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 1:18:13 PM PDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

    >[email protected] writes:
    ># Daniel Keren writes:

    >## It is true that there are cyanide traces on the outside
    >## walls of some of the delousing chambers. But you spoke
    >## specifically of the gas chamber of Krema I, which was a
    >## homicidal gas chamber.

    ># I was refering to Madjdanik (sp?).

    >Liar. The thread, as you know very well, is about the gas
    >chamber in Krema I in Auschwitz. This is the one which the
    >original article you posted mentions. The “reconstruction”
    >this article discusses is of this gas chamber in Auschwitz,
    >not in Maidanek.

    >This is the one you claimed has cyanide traces on its outer walls.
    >And you lied, as usual. Nothing new here.

    Now that you clowns have surrendered you have nothing else to do but
    suck hind teat and play catch up.

    Get over it. Minus 163 IQ me did it.

    Want to try again?

    Nizkor: Breakfast FOR Champions

    From mgiwer[email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:39 PDT 1996
    Article: 45424 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:29:20 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 25
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:31:36 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    Keith Morrison wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
    >> me in any manner.
    >>
    >> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.
    >>
    >> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
    >> conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
    >> will get down to cases on my terms.
    >>
    >> There is nothing in between.
    >>
    >> I hope you folks come to understand this.

    >Has someone sent this up to the net-abuse newsgroup? Maybe mail
    >a copy to Netcom?

    Please do. The full story is being told there. More oppotunities to
    tell the full story are always welcome.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:40 PDT 1996
    Article: 45426 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Lets get this straight
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:41:36 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 38
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:43:51 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
    >>[email protected] wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
    >>> me in any manner.
    >>>
    >>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.
    >>>
    >>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
    >>> conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
    >>> will get down to cases on my terms.
    >>>
    >>> There is nothing in between.
    >>>
    >>> I hope you folks come to understand this.
    >>
    >>Has someone sent this up to the net-abuse newsgroup? Maybe mail
    >>a copy to Netcom?

    >I mailed a copy to [email protected]

    ISP harrassment starts once more. It worked last time but netcom is a
    bit bigger, about 1000 times bigger.

    Why don’t you folks go after my family again like last time?

    You folks have been driving people out of this conference for years and
    you brag about it. You use every kind of abuse you can to get rid of
    people who refuse to believe as you do.

    So what is it you are complaining about that you did not do yourselves?

    Or is it ok when you do it?

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:41 PDT 1996
    Article: 45427 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Yet another Griswold assertion (was: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth)
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:45:59 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 55
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:48:15 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
    Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33763 alt.revisionism:45427

    [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

    >> [email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <[email protected]>,
    >> >[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
    >>
    >> >> Grizzled old fart Chuckles Ferree ([email protected]) writes:
    >>
    >> >> > […deletia…]
    >>
    >> >> > Who says anything about entering the camps after the cessation of
    >> >> > hostilities? The war ended May 8th. 1945, my group entered most camps
    >> >> > while fighting was still going on. At Dachau for instance, we were
    >> >> > fired upon by SS die-hards, and believe me they diedhard. Lots of ’em.
    >> >>
    >> >> Yeah, after they surrendered, and were disarmed, you brave bastards shot
    >> >> them. Way to go. Feel proud that you shot disarmed men?
    >>
    >> >Please present evidence, Griswold, that:
    >>
    >> > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
    >> > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
    >> > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau
    >>
    >> He told a great story about it. Even recounted the shooting.
    >Of course
    >> he was copying from some professionally written material by the quality
    >> of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.

    >If by “he” is meant Mr. Ferree, this is yet another assertion without evidence.

    Try Dejanews if you missed it.

    >> He also claimed to be a camp liberator and a fighter pilot. One
    >> presumes he destroyed the camp in order to save it.

    >Presumptions are not evidence. Presumptions are merely yet another kind of
    >assertion.

    >Evidence is still required that:

    > (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and
    > were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
    > (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau

    >None has been presented, by either Griswold or Giwer.

    He has made every claim I have stated and more. Look them up.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:41 PDT 1996
    Article: 45429 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: “Poor team” KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
    Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:54:58 GMT
    Organization: images incarnate
    Lines: 54
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-06.ix.netcom.com
    X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22 6:57:12 PM CDT 1996
    X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

    [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> [email protected] writes:
    >> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

    >> > Other than Joe MacCarthy,who made such a charge?

    >> Golly, gee whiz, you commie bastards are still around and behind the
    >> times. The current records released by Russia have the same number
    >> McCarthy used.
    >
    >> Sorry, asshole, McCarthy was right and the Russian records confirm it.
    >
    >> News at eleven.

    > Gee3 Matty-poo now you’re telling us that the *Soviets* were the
    >ones who investigated chareges of brutalities by American soldiers investigating
    >the murder of American soldiers?

    > Please, Matty-poo, the world wants details. Take another suck at the
    >bourbon bottle and tell us all about it.

    One more attempt at character assassination. What else do holohuggers
    have going for them?

    ========
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: What a clever way to kill people
    From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
    Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

    “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
    in the wall,
    approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
    the back of his head
    against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
    practice this arrangement did not
    prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
    days a new arrangement
    was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
    plate was then slowly
    lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
    being measured for
    height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
    poleaxed the prisoner with
    a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
    operated by a foot lever in
    a corner of the room. ”
    IMT VII – p. 377.

    From [email protected] Sun Jun 23 08:13:42 PDT 1996
    Article: 45430 of alt.revisionism
    Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
    From: