Documents

Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p4

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44257 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now you know why
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:18:14 GMT
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional
>: historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had
>: been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for
>: president. Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in
>: cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train. ‘That’s why
>: our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.’ As neither Jack
>: nor I was an antisemite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took
>: this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene
>: corruption of American politics.

>Now perhaps Mr. Seeker-after-truth can explain the following: the U.S.
>recognized Israel on 14 May 1948, but Truman did not begin campaigning for
>President on his “whistle-stop tour” until September (cf. the
>New York Times for 6 September 1948). Indeed, the nominating
>convention was not until July.

First off you will have to discuss that with Vidal not me. If you do
seances, you can ask JFK. I post them as I find them.

However, you should be aware that diplomatic recognition of a country is
solely up to the State Department which is subordinate to the President.
And of course Truman was president at the time. The quid pro quo should
be obvious.

The closest thing to a “whistle-
>stop campaign train” that carried Truman anywhere was a train
>that carried him on a nationwide speaking tour prior to the
>Democratic convention. Unfortunately for Gore Vidal and Prince Myshkin,
>that train didn’t leave Washington until 3 June. Or are you suggesting
>that Truman recognized Israel on the off chance that it would earn him
>2 million dollars four months later?

Perhaps. Political deals are made on less than that.

>And what does this have to do with the Holocaust?

Without the Holocaust there would be no Israel.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44259 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:47:07 GMT
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>>>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>>
>>>>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>>>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>>
>>
>>>Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>>:-)
>>
>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a pharmacist
>>would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>>course.
>>
>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.

>Mr. Giwer’s evidence that Pressac does not know is…

Richard J. Green of course. Unless of course he was being deceptive
again.

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:03 PDT 1996
Article: 44260 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: That wild and crazy “evidence” at the IMT
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 04:25:44 GMT
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ERNST KALTENBRUNNER

During Kaltenbrunner’s cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
he had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
witnesses were lying (XI 349 <<385>>).

The “eyewitnesses”, of course, did not appear in court; they were merely
names on pieces of paper. One of these names is that of Franz Ziereis,
commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp.

Ziereis “confessed” to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades out of
human skin; manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a complicated
table of statistical information containing the exact number of inmates
in 31 different camps. He then accused Kaltenbrunner of ordering the
entire camp (Mauthausen) to be killed upon the approach of the
Americans.

Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
“confession”. Fortunately, the “confession” has been “remembered” by
someone else: a concentration camp inmate named Hans Marsalek, who never
appeared in court, but whose signature appears on the document (Document
3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286).

Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!), including
the statistical table, which states, for example, that there were 12,000
inmates at Ebensee; 12,000 at Mauthausen; 24,000 at Gusen I and II; 20
inmates at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at Klagenfurt-Junkerschule, etc,
for all of 31 camps in the table.

The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
at Ziereis’s “confession”, and no notes alleged to have been taken at
the time are appended to the document. The document bears two signatures
only: that of Hans Marsalek, the inmate; and that of Smith W. Brookhart
Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date 8 April 1946. Ziereis died 23
May 1945.

The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
multiple gunshot wounds through the stomach) to sign anything at the
time, but he was healthy enough to dictate this lengthy and complex
document, which was then “remembered” exactly and verbatim by Marsalek
for 10 and a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had no
motivation to lie. The document is in German. Brookhart was a confession
ghostwriter who also wrote the “confessions” of Rudolf Höss (in English,
Document 3868-PS) and Otto Ohlendorf (in German, Document 2620-PS).

(Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington Iowa. Address in
1992: 18 Hillside Drive, Denver Colorado, USA. Brookhart never answered
my letter as to whether he had any papers or memoirs.)

Ziereis’s “confession” continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
Shirer, Hilberg, and other itinerant peddlars of Holo-Schlock.

Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps or
“Stammlager” during the war (XI 268-269 <<298-299>>). The prosecution
total of 300 concentration camps was achieved by including perfectly
normal work camps. The 13th camp, Matzgau, near Danzig, was a special
camp whose prisoners were SS guards and police who had been sentenced to
imprisonment for offenses against prisoners in their charge: physical
mistreatment, embezzlement, theft of personal property, etc. This camp
with its inmate SS men fell into the hands of the Russians at the end of
the war (XI 312, 316 <<345, 350>>).

Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts were
far more severe than sentences passed by other courts for the same
offenses. The SS carried out frequent trials of their own men for
offenses against inmates and violations of discipline (XXI 264-291,
369-370 <<294- 323, 408-409>>).

Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the sole
purpose of obtaining information relating to future resistance activity;
it was forbidden for the purpose of obtaining confessions. These
interrogators required the presence of a doctor, and allowed a total of
20 blows with a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a process which
could not be repeated later. Other forms of legal “Nazi torture”
included confinement in a dark cell, or standing during lengthy
interrogations (XX 164, 180-181 <<184, 202-203>>; XXI 502-510; 528-530
<<556-565, 583-584>>).

Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
methods were used by police all over the world (XI 312 <<346>>) and that
respected police officials visited Germany to study German procedures
(XXI 373 <<412>>).

Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands of
pages divided between the Tribunal and “commission”, and 136,000
affidavits (XXI 346-373 <<382-412>>; 415 <<458>>, 444 <<492>>).

Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to “lynch” Allied airmen who
committed mass bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been
illegal, but did not occur. Many airmen were saved from mobs by German
officials. The Germans refused to contemplate such a matter, fearing it
would lead to a general slaughter of parchuted fliers. Like so many
other German crimes, this remained an idea without effect (XXI 406-407
<<449- 450>>, 472-476 <<522-527>>).

Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the so-
called “Bullet Order”. This is supposed to have been an order to shoot
prisoners of war using a measuring contraption (probably inspired by the
Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain bashing machine, Document USSR-52, VII
377 <<416-417>>).

The “Bullet Order”, Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
which it probably is not (XVIII 35-36 <<43-44>>) is a mistranslation:
the sense of the order is that prisoners who attempt to escape should be
chained to an iron ball (Kugel), and not that they should be shot with a
“bullet” (also Kugel). The word “chained” appears in the document, but
the word “shot” does not (III 506 <<565>>; XXI 514 <<568>>); Gestapo
affidavit 75; XXI 299 <<332>>). The document is a “teletype” thus,
without a signature (XXVII 424-428).

“Sonderbehandlung” (special treatment) is an example of the ugly jargon
used in all bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as “treatment
on a case by case basis”. Kaltenbrunner was able to show that it meant,
in the context of one document, the right to drink champagne and take
French lessons. The prosecution got a winter resort mixed up with a
concentration camp (XI 338-339 <<374-375>>); (XI 232-386 <<259-427>>;
XVIII 40-68 <<49-80>>). (The winter resort document is Document 3839-PS,
XXXIII 197- 199, an “affidavit”).

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:04 PDT 1996
Article: 44262 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A little more background
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:40:35 GMT
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HERMANN GÖRING

Göring was accused of creating the concentration camp system and
plotting “aggressive war” against Poland. Göring’s defense was that
Germany was a sovereign state, recognized by every government in the
world (XXI 580-581 <<638-639>>); that Hitler was legally elected; that
every nation has the right to legislate and to organize its affairs as
it sees fit; that General von Schleicher had attempted to rule illegally
and unconstitutionally without the support of the National Socialists;
that Germany was on the verge of civil war in 1933; that concentration
camps were invented by the British during the Boer War, and that
internment of aliens and political opponents was practiced by both
Britain and the United States during WWII.

The order to create the camps was unquestionably legal under an
emergency clause in the Weimar Constitution, and was signed by
Hindenberg (Reich President’s Decree of 28 February 1933), under the
authority of Article 48, paragraph 2, of the Weimar Constitution (XVII
535 <<581>>, XIX 357 <<394>>).

According to a prosecution document, Document R-129 (III 506 <<565- 566>>)) there were 21,400 inmates in all German concentration camps put
together in 1939. 300,000 persons were confined in ordinary prisons
(XVII 535-536 <<581-582>>, XX 159 <<178>>).

One year after the war, 300,000 Germans were held in Allied prison camps
under “automatic arrest” clauses in Allied agreements (such as Point B-5
of the Joint Declaration of Potsdam) (XVIII 52 <<62>>).

The majority of prisoners in German concentration camps were Communists
and common criminals (XVII 535-536 <<581-582>>, XXI 516- 521
<<570-576>>, 607-614 <<677-685>>).

During the war, due to the Allied blockade, the camp system was expanded
to utilize the labour of enemy aliens, criminals, Jehova’s Witnesses and
Communists. It was pointed out that America imprisoned 11,000 Jehova’s
Witnesses (XI 513 <<563>>).

Britain fought both world wars in defiance of international law by
reducing Germany and any occupied territories to literal starvation
through blockade (XIII 445-450 <<492-497>>; XVIII 334-335 <<365-367>>).
It was this which necessitated requisitions and labour conscription in
occupied territories, legal under Article 52 of The Fourth Hague
Convention on Land Warfare 18 October 1907. It was this which made
people happy to work in Germany and remit wages to their families
(between two and three billion Reichsmarks during the war).

The “slaves” paid German taxes on their wages, and were disciplined
through fines, which could not exceed a week’s wages (V 509 <<571>>).
For gross indiscipline, they could be sent to a work camp (not a
concentration camp) for a period not exceeding 56 days (XXI 521
<<575-576>>). It was strictly forbidden to beat or mistreat them.

Prisoners of war could volunteer to be released from prisoner of war
camps and work in industry, in which case they were treated like any
other industrial workers (XVIII 496-498 <<542-544>>), but lost
protection under the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention. They could not
be forced to do so.

The Vichy Regime in France obtained the release and immediate return
home of 1 prisoner of war for every 3 workers sent to Germany under
contract for a period of 6 months (XVIII 497 <<543>>). It was not
possible to violate the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention by forcing
French, Belgian or Dutch prisoners to participate in hostilities against
their own countries, because their own countires were no longer fighting
(XVIII 472- 473 <<516>>.

As for the attack on Poland, the Polish crisis existed for over a year
prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the German and Soviet attack.
During this entire time, the Poles never called for an impartial
international Court of Arbitration; never called on the League of
Nations; because they did not wish an equitable solution. They were
content to continue to violate their international agreements by
expelling Polish citizens of German descent, as well as many hundreds of
thousands of Jews (XVI 275 <<304>>).

The influx of Polish Jews into Germany was the principal immediate cause
of German anti-Semitism, according to many defendants and defense
witnesses (XXI 134-135 <<155>>; XXII 148 <<169>>). Polish Jews were
involved in many financial scandals and swindling schemes, such as the
Barnat-Kutitsky affair (XXI 569 <<627>>).

As for “conspiracy to wage war in defiance of the laws of war”, of
course it was the British who did that, with mass aerial bombings.
German soldiers went into battle with detailed written instructions that
property was to be respected; prisoners must be humanely treated; women
must be respected; and so on (IX 57-58 <<68-69>>, 86 <<100-101>>, XVII
516 <<560>>).

Frequent trials resulting in many death penalties against Germans were
carried out by the German armed forces against members of their own
armed forces for rape or looting, even if the value of the property
involved was slight (XVIII 368 <<401-402>>, XXI 390 <<431>>, XXII 78
<<92>>).

Requisition of government property was legal under the Hague Convention.
The Soviet Union was not a signatory to this convention. In any case, in
Communist countries there was no private property. Göring said he had
been to Russia, and the people there had nothing to steal (IX 349-351
<<390-393>>).

Furthermore, the Allies were presently engaged in everything they
accused the Germans of doing (XXI 526 <<581>>; XXII 366-367
<<418-420>>).

Göring demolished the “pressure chamber medical experiment” accusation
by saying that every airman had to test his physical reactions to high
altitude; there was nothing sinister about a so-called “pressure
chamber” (XXI 304-310 <<337-344>>). Americans carried out medical
experiments resulting in death while the Nuremberg trial was still going
on (XIX 90-92 <<102-104>>; see also XXI 356, 370 <<393, 409>>).

Ironically, it was alleged that “defensive war” included preventive
attack (XXII 448 <<508>>) or to protect citizens of a foreign country
>from their own government (XIX 472 <<527>>; XXII 37 <<49>>), except when
Germans did it (X 456 <<513>>). Protests that Germans did just that were
ignored.

The Soviets had 10,000 tanks and 150 divisions massed along the border
of eastern Poland, and had increased the number of airports in their
section of the country from 20 to 100. Detailed maps were later found
which would not have been necessary for defensive purposes. It was
believed that to await an attack upon the oil fields of Roumania or the
coal fields of Silesia would be suicidal (XIX 13-16 <<20-23>>, XX 578
<<630-631>>; XXII 71 <<85>>).

It seems unlikely that nations with vast colonial empires (Britain,
France) or claims upon entire hemispheres (the United States) could
agree upon a workable definition of “aggressive war”. Indeed it was
admitted in the judgment of Nuremberg that “defense”, “aggression”, and
“conspiracy” were never defined (XXII 464, 467 <<527, 531>>). No doubt
“defensive war” is the medieval “bellum justum” dressed up in liberal
jargon (IX 236-691 <<268-782>>; XVII 516-550 <<560-597>>; XXI 302-317
<<335-351>>).

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44263 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Your OSI in action, again
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:13:52 GMT
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The Office of Special Investigations and the Holocaust
Myth

By Andrew Allen

A major support of the Holocaust myth is the popular belief that
National Socialist crimes were
proven in various trials after World War II. Even 50 years after the War
various governments seek
to support the myth through prosecution of alleged war criminals. The
case of John Demjanjuk in
Israel and Imre Finta in Canada are two examples. In the United States
the process of “Nazi
hunting” has been put on a permanent basis with the creation of a
bureaucracy within the United
States Department of Justice, the Office of Special Investigations. It
was formed on September 4,
1979 to enforce a law passed by Congress the previous October 30th. The
law was Public Law
95-549 and its purpose was, and is, to track down and revoke the
citizenship of so-called “Nazi
war-criminals.” In the first ten years of its operation the OSI has
stripped approximately 35
citizens of their citizenship and deported them to various countries. It
has an annual operating
budget in excess of $4,000,000. Its director as of 1993 was Neal Sher.

The actions of the OSI are increasingly being called into question by
members of the Bar, the
courts, and members of Congress. This article is a study of a single
case prosecuted by the
Office of Special Investigations, the case of Martin Bartesch. In 1987,
the OSI filed a lawsuit
against Martin Bartesch of Chicago, Illinois, seeking to strip him of
his American citizenship and
to deport him. In the legal papers and press announcements the OSI
accused Martin Bartesch of
having been a Nazi war-criminal who “personally” murdered tens of
thousands of people at
Mauthausen concentration camp. He was accused of obtaining entry into
the United States by
fraud in that he failed to disclose he service in the SS.

It is important to remember that, although the victims of the OSI are
called “war criminals” by the
OSI and some of the media, they are only charged with the technical
violation of omitting to put
certain information on their entry papers when they came to America.
They are not charged with
any crime. The OSI is only charging people with a civil immigration
offense and the result of losing
the suit is only considered by the Courts as a “civil” result and not a
“criminal punishment.” It may
seem illogical that being stripped of your citizenship, being seperated
>from your family, having
your Social Security payments taken away, and being deported is not
considered “punishment”
while having to pay a $100 fine for speeding is. However, this is the
position of the OSI and,
unfortunately, it has been supported by the Courts.

This distinction between civil trials and criminal trials is very
important. It means that the
defendants in an OSI action have none of the rights that every murderer
or rapist has. For
example the defendant does not have a right to an attorney, does not
have a right to a jury trial,
does not have a right against self-incrimination, and can be found
guilty on a far lower level of
evidence than in a normal criminal proceeding. With these serious
disadvantages and facing
ruinous legal costs, Martin Bartesch accepted a deal offered by the OSI.
He would go to Austria,
be allowed to keep his Social Security benefits, and most importantly,
the OSI would not
prosecute his wife. That would have been the end of the matter except
for the determined and
courageous struggle of Martin Bartesch’s children who were determined to
clear their father’s
name. In 1988 I was retained by Martin’s son, Heinz, to file a Freedom
of Information Act1 request
regarding his father. The request was for the information which the OSI
had about Martin
Bartesch. When the OSI ignored the FOIA request, I filed a lawsuit.

The Freedom of Information Act 5 U.S.C. was passed by Congress in 1966
and substantially
modified in 1974. It was considered a major liberal triumph in
establishing, for the first time, a
statutory right of access by any person to federal agency records. FOIA
requires that the agency
either release the records that it has on an individual or or compile a
complete list of the
documents and cite one of various exemptions to release (such as
national security). The list is
called the “Vaughn” Index.

Several weeks after I filed the legal action a large packet was mailed
to my office. It was full of
documents from the OSI files on Bartesch. This is what makes the
Bartesch case particularly
interesting. With someone in the Office of Special Investigations
leaking documents to me, I was
in a interesting position: I would be able to observe how my legal
collegues in the Office of
Special Investigations complied with the Freedom of Information Act. I
also was able to detail the
entire course of the original Bartesch case.

THE HISTORY OF MARTIN BARTESCH

Martin Bartesch was a Volkdeutscher living on a farm in Romania. When he
was 16 years old, in
1943, he entered the S.S. under great pressure to avoid service in
Russia. He was never a
member of the Hitler Youth or any Nazi organization. In September and
October 1943 he received
training outside of Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria and was
then moved about 60
miles away to Linz III. This camp was a work camp (Arbeitslager) run by
civilians under SS control
and was not the site of beatings or atrocities. Testimony also showed
that Bartesch had shared
his cigaretts with his charges while on road building assignments and
obtained extra food for
them. While Mauthausen had been the site of atrocities, Linz III had
not. In 1945 Bartesch was
transfered to the eastern front. He served against the Soviets and was
captured by them at the
war’s end. When the Soviets overran Romania he lost his home and
country. In 1958 Martin
Bartesch came to America as a refugee, raised a family here and was a
model citizen. While
Bartesch was stationed outside of the Mauthausen he did serve as a
perimeter guard for three
weeks and did shoot an escaping prisoner, named Max Ochsbron. The matter
was recorded in
the camp records and clearly showed that the prisoner had been trying to
escape. Ochsbron
appears to have been arrested for forgery.

THE HISTORY OF THE DEPORTATION CASE OF MARTIN BARTESCH

Sometime in 1985 this single entry on camp records was discovered by OSI
investigators looking
for leads. A computer match was made with the name of Martin Bartesch on
immigration files. It
was on this weak evidence that the OSI filed its lawsuit against Martin
Bartesch. It also issued
press releases which, as mentioned above, accused Bartesch of being a
mass murderer. The
attorneys at OSI did this despite their having a list of those S.S. who
had been stationed at
Mauthausen (Bartesch is not on them) and the list which shows he was at
Linz III. A second OSI
list also reveals that Bartesch was never stationed in Mauthausen. The
OSI attorney directly in
charge of the case was Michael Bernstein, who acted with the consent and
approval of OSI
director Neal Sher. It was only after the filing of the lawsuit that the
OSI started to look for evidence
against Bartesch. Advertisments were run in various newspapers stating
“OSI urgently seeking
Mauthausen witnesses.” Investigators combed record files in Prague,
Vienna, and Berlin.
Bernstein and his aide (named Betty Shave) took several expensive trips
to Israel and Paris to
interview possible “witnesses.” Despite an exhaustive search, the OSI
did not discover any
evidence of any kind which implicated Martin Bartesch in any crime. As
one Department of State
telegram put it, “All that could be established from documentation is
that the French Jew (No.
14582) Max Ochsbron, born August 20, 1916 in Vienna died on October 28,
1943 at 9:55 A.M.
while trying to escape (Auf der Flucht erschossen).”

Indeed, the OSI search only uncovered evidence which exonerated
Bartesch. Various interviews
with ex-prisoners state time and time again that the interviewees never
saw any beatings or
killings of prisoners by SS guards at Linz III or even heard of other
prisoners complaining of
beatings or killings. Linz is mentioned as being “relatively nice.” The
reports of many interviews
are ended with OSI comment, “Interview not useful. He [interviewee]
paints a rather easy picture
of life at Linz III.” Despite this clear evidence of Bartesch’s
innocence, Neal Sher did not drop the
case, or even retract the more extreme and heinous accusations against
Bartesch. The discovery
requests of the immigration attorney for Bartesch were avoided and
Michael Bernstein, with the
approval of OSI director Neal Sher, concealed exonerating evidence from
the Bartesch family.
The declarations regarding mild conditions at Linz III were “forgotten”.
Even worse, documents
were translated in a manner which increased the father’s appearance of
guilt (omitting the fact
that Bartesch had disclosed that he had been in the S.S. in his entry
documents and by adding
“Concentration Camp Mauthausen” to the list of names of the Linz III
guards implying that Linz
guards served at Mauthausen. The OSI never admitted that the original
charge of killing ten of
thousands of persons was incorrect. During the Bartesch deportation suit
various citizens wrote
protest letters to the White House and Congress supporting Martin
Bartesch. The leaked
documents reveal that the OSI collected these protest letters and
proposed taking administrative
and legal action against the letter-writers. Michael Bernstein requested
the immigration files of
the letter writers in order to investigate them and a memo was
circulated at OSI saying that the
letters were “irritating” and discussing subpoenaing the protesters for
depositions.

The OSI files were filled with collected newspaper articles and letters
to the the editors of various
publications. Director Sher was careful to monitor the publicity OSI
cases generated and the OSI
evidently worked with private organizations to influence public opinion.
A single tragedy put Martin
Bartesch’s name on a list which the Office of Special Investigation used
to find possible Nazi
war-criminals. Without any investigation, the OSI leveled the most
serious charges against him
and ruined him. That was irresposible conduct for our goverment. The
case was continued after
the truth was known because the OSI couldn’t admit that a mistake had
been made. OSI hasn’t
had the decency to retract the orginial charges or to apologize to the
Bartesch family.

THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT SUIT

The Freedom of Information Act was meant to be an important law for
controlling secret
government activity and opening up governmental practices. The OSI
clearly failed to comply with
the Freedom of Information Act regarding Heinz Bartesch’s requests for
information. Many
documents which were in the Bartesch file were not included on the
Vaughn Index. I believe that it
is more than a coincidence that all of the documents which provided
exonerating evidence for
Bartesch or which indicated OSI wrong-doing were simply not listed at
all. In other FOIA cases
brought by Rad Artukovic or Edward Nisnic, regarding the John Demjanjuk
case, the OSI failed to
produce or even list many important documents. Thus, the attorneys of
the OSI seem to be
engaging in a pattern of ignoring or evading the Freeedom of Information
Act. During the FOIA
suit the OSI acted in a hostile and unprofessional manner. Threats were
made by the OSI to
revive the lawsuit against Martin Bartesch if his son continued to
pursue his FOIA suit. Threats of
criminal action were made against me for possessing OSI documents.
Reasonable discovery
requests were opposed.

In summary, the documents show that the OSI

1. filed the de-naturalization suit on very weak evidence while alleging
extremely serious crimes;
2. failed to release evidence which exonorated Bartesch;
3. used distorted or incorrect translations;
4. failed to retract the most serious charges against Bartesch when they
found to be untrue;
5. collected the names of citizens who wrote to their elected officials;
6. and considered taking administrative action against them.

Regarding the FOIA suit, the OSI;
1. failed to list important documents on the Vaughn Index and described
those documents that it
did include in a misleading manner.

The existence of the Office of Special Investigations shows the power of
and is an example of the
continuing importance of the Holocaust Myth. The fact that the OSI must
prosecute cases such as
Martin Bartesch shows that they have no real Nazi criminals to pursue.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:06 PDT 1996
Article: 44265 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:33:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 6:34:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>> >like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>> >when talking about atoms and such?
>>
>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
>> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>> nonsense.
>>
>> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>> fundamental.

>What does the term “oxidation state” mean, Mr Giwer?

It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:39:36 GMT

” MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
in my hands, of an
experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
you [Albert Speer] if you
heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
find a quick and complete
way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
gassing and burning, as it
had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
village, a small village was
provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
were eradicated
almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace.”
IMT XVI – p.529.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:07 PDT 1996
Article: 44268 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:37:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pnk[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:59866 alt.politics.usa.republican:218337 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:323648 alt.politics.perot:49215 alt.revisionism:44268

[email protected] (Douglas E. Berry) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard Harrold) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Charles) wrote:

>> I did not think it was any secret that the ones who took over were
>>atheist Jews. They did not make any exceptions.

>Ah, so now it’s *atheist Jews* responsable.

That was always the claim. It is Jews who maintain it is possible to be
both an atheist and a Jew.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:07 PDT 1996
Article: 44271 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A death warrant confession
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:05:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:07:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>Rudolf Höss

>The Giwer-troll, reduced to stealing rubbish off Greg (Craven) Raven’s web
>site. Pathetic.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
>with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:08 PDT 1996
Article: 44276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:13:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 3:15:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>>Which true truth is Mr. Giwer peddling today?
>>>>
>>>> You, too, are confusing the Degesh pub with the public health document
>>>>from Prague. As we know, the SS did not buy from Prague.

>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s argument that this public health document is a
>>>forgery?

>> I have no argument. I have the clearly true and correct statement that
>>the Degesh publication does not mention “Erco” whatever that is supposed
>>to be.

>Then the above is not from the document you posted as the Degesh
>document? Here let me move it down from above since you seem to be
>blind.

>>>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>This was from the document you posted. You ARE a moron! I’m convinced
>now.

This is the one from the health institute or whatever it was called. It
is not from the Degesh publication which is specification on its use in
pest control. I have explained this at least twice. Do you need to
read both of them again?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

1/12/85
According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had
seen “fourteen foot flames” shooting out of the chimneys of
crematorium at Auschwitz, and
that he was able to tell whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish
Hungarians or skinny
Jewish Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the
crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr. Friedman reversed
himself upon being
presented with details of crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps
Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings. Mr. Friedman
then made the startling
confession that his entire testimony was based on what he had been
told by others.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:09 PDT 1996
Article: 44279 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:29:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pctrb$23 <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 6:31:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord McFee)
>wrote:

>[snip]

>>I hope that lurkers in this newsgroup will carefully note this article. I
>>also hope that Ms. Ostrov will not do what the Giwer-troll is trying to have
>>her do, and that is engage in a flamewar. That is his usual tactic when he
>>is being decimated in an argument: descend into the gutter where he feels at
>>home and try to drag the other person down there with him.

>Oh, ye of little faith! Mr. McFee, apart from having no interest in
>any lies the gutter-troll might spew in my direction, the only
>flamewars I engage in are against those who have the wit (or at least
>half a wit) and wherewithal to defend themselves. Me, flame a witless
>gutter-troll?! That would be most unfair (not to mention
>unladylike!), and I would _never_ stoop so low to conquer:>)

>[text deleted for brevity]

>And I wholeheartedly agree that ….

>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>>e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
>>with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>>and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>hro

Fat Broad has agreed.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:39:36 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:09 PDT 1996
Article: 44280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Insulin Hoax (was Re: Fritsch was a fraud)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:32:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 5:33:45 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:17:42 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> >wrote [well, actually he didn’t write much of anything]:
>>
>> >In 1921, Frederick Banting and Charles Best co-discovered the
>> >pancreatic hormone insulin, used in treating diabetes.
>>
>> >Frederick Banting and J.R. Macleod were the first in Canada to win the
>> >Nobel Prize in 1923 for their work in the isolation of insulin, a
>> >discovery that revolutionized the treatment of diabetes.
>>
>> >Both of these statements are true, and yet they are in apparent
>> >contradiction.
>>
>> >Can Mr. Giwer guess why? Probably not. But if he could, could he
>> >construct an analogy to Macleod, Banting, and Best using the names of,
>> >say, Hoess, Fritsch, and Breitwieser? Probably not.
>>
>> Off topic. The difference goes far beyond name alone.
>>
>> And then of course there is the third true story. I am certain there
>> are more true stories to be found.

>Translation:

>”No I can’t because I have no idea who those people are, what went on
>or anything relating to actual science because everytime I put my
>mouth in gear my brain stays in neutral and I look like a complete
>moron.”

I would rather hold that people are real morons when they believe the
modern, sanitized version of stories like the following.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

“PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:10 PDT 1996
Article: 44283 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:51:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 153
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:53:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>>>>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>>>>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Which true truth is Mr. Giwer peddling today?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You, too, are confusing the Degesh pub with the public health document
>>>>>>>>from Prague. As we know, the SS did not buy from Prague.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s argument that this public health document is a
>>>>>>>forgery?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no argument. I have the clearly true and correct statement that
>>>>>>the Degesh publication does not mention “Erco” whatever that is supposed
>>>>>>to be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can not put it into the Degesh pub. You can not put it into the
>>>>>>Degesh pub. Sorry.
>>>>
>>>>>Either the document posted which mentions ERCO is accurate or it isn’t.
>>>>>The fact that not every publication mentions all three possible supports
>>>>>is irrelevant. BTW – Dr. Keren published a URL to see information from
>>>>>Dr. Peters of Degesch that confirms that ERCO was used as a support. Is
>>>>>it the case that Mr. Giwer was ignorant of the use of ERCO or is it the
>>>>>case that he is not being completely forthright?
>>>>
>>>> You do need to learn to read some time. I have said it was not in the
>>>>Degesh publication that the holohuggers were saying supported their
>>>>position but just never could fine the time to post. I started looking
>>>>and found both documents almost immediately.
>>
>>>How many Degesh publications are there? What is Mr. Giwer’s evidence that
>>>anyone was referring to what he posted?
>>
>> You will have to get after your fellow holohuggers to post what they
>>claim to have but refused to post for an answer to that one.

>So Mr. Giwer’s argument that testimony that refers to Zyklon-B as being
>blue is contrary to physical fact has failed. He cannot show that ERGO
>was not used ergo he cannot show that such testimonies are invalid.

Actually it is an explanation of one of the reasons for the refusal,
that it only described wood pulp as a carrier.

As I have explained to you …

You do need to learn to read some time. I have said it was not in the
Degesh publication that the holohuggers were saying supported their
position but just never could fine the time to post. I started looking
and found both documents almost immediately.

But specifically as to that scan of a single page, There is not even a
caption to the picture of the page. There is nothing indicating the
different purposes to which the different carriers were used. However
we do have a specific purpose in the Degesh publication.

We do know that from a Degesh publication entitled “Kyklon for Pest
Control” we have a specific purpose for this carrier and there is one
and only carrier mentioned. We also know from the weight of myth on
this subject that the type used for pest control is the type that was
supposedly used on people. Therefore this is a description of the type
that was supposedly used for gassing people.

QED

>>>> But specifically as to that scan of a single page, There is not even a
>>>>caption to the picture of the page. There is nothing indicating the
>>>>different purposes to which the different carriers were used. However
>>>>we do have a specific purpose in the Degesh publication.
>>>>
>>>> We do know that from a Degesh publication entitled “Kyklon for Pest
>>>>Control” we have a specific purpose for this carrier and there is one
>>>>and only carrier mentioned. We also know from the weight of myth on
>>>>this subject that the type used for pest control is the type that was
>>>>supposedly used on people. Therefore this is a description of the type
>>>>that was supposedly used for gassing people.
>>>>
>>>> QED
>>
>>>What was the Zyklon with ERCO support used for if not pest control?
>>>I suggest that Mr. Giwer learn elementary logic.
>>
>> You will have to ask them what other uses there were and also what Erco
>>is. And then ask them what the Erco carrier was used for.

>Translation: Mr. Giwer’s argument that only the zyklon-B using wood or
>diatomaceous earth was used for the purpose of pest control is without
>ant foundation whatsoever.

You will notice that I have dropped the diatomite completely now that
there is a source of information that wood pulp is what was used for the
pest control form used at Auschwitz.

Now of course I, unlike you, would never be so foolish as to attempt to
argue a negative. On the other hand, I am not interested in indulging
in speculation as to the use to which this other carrier type was put.
One would certainly expect that if it were used for pest control then it
would have been included in the publication.

It would hardly contribute to safety to incorrectly describe what people
should expect to see particularly when the importance of clean up is
stressed.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
…. When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:17:11 PDT 1996
Article: 44284 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In re: Kurt Gerstein
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 03:38:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 297
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>For the sake of simplicity, I am combing my response to several
>messages from Matt Giwer ([email protected]) concerning Kurt
>Gerstein:

>> Is there suddenly some standard that applies only to me but not to
>>holhuggers? Why?

>Double standard? Why, no, Matt. You asked me for my source on
>Gerstein. I told you: a specific book, THE DEPUTY by Rolf Hochhuth,
>more specifically its afterword “Sidelights on History”. You can
>probably find this book in any large public library if you’d like
>to check my information. But when I ask you for your source of
>information, all I get is a vague reference to a web page, with no
>URL. With your record, I naturally suspect that your source may be,
>to say the least, tainted, and possibly mendacious. Not that you
>need the help of a bad source to post mendacious information.

>Now, several messages back, I asked you the following questions:

>1) Why do you consider any or all of Kurt Gerstein’s confessions
> “obviously phony”?

The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
Exposure has swung into action.

1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
per day for Treblinka.

But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
today’s slightly less absurd numbers.

2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: “Quicker, quicker, carry
out the whole program!” Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
“Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too.”

Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
of his doubles because he was never near the place.

3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.

Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.

4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”

Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.

5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.

Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
more

Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”

The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.

6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
meters!

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?

Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
could form five high human pyramids.

7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.

And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
exhaust.

8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
the Nazis bad stock.

It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.

9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high

Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.

10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.

A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
fetish.

>2) What is the source of your information about Kurt Gerstein?

You can search for it the same as I did.

>3) Have you read the text of any of what you list as his
> confessions, in original or translation? If so, where can I find
> these texts?

>You’ve answered the first question to some degree, in pointing out
>some incorrect information (Hitler’s visit to Majdanek) and one
>fairly blatant numerical absurdity (700+ people crowded into 25
>square meters). It’s not unreasonable to be on one’s guard when
>seeing such misinformation. OTOH, Gerstein clearly did have intimate
>knowledge of the Holocaust, and he had nothing to gain by lying, so

When a person declares he has witnessed the impossible it is evidence
only that he was not a witness.

>it’s also not unreasonable to suppose, in the first instance, that
>he was repeating a rumor (did he claim to have personally seen
>Hitler at Majdanek?), and in the second instance, that he simply
>got some numbers confused: not the first nor the last human
>being to have such problems.

It may be human but it in no manner established credibility. Further,
it brings everything else into equal question whether or not it is less
fantastical.

>Aside from this, you sneer at other information which you
>find unbelievable for reasons beyond my comprehension:

>* One-legged people being forced to march naked: Any normal
> reader would assume that, under threat of death, these
> victims walked using prostheses, simple walking sticks, or
> the help of their fellow victims.

>* Gerstein apparently wrote in three languages: So what? MY
> wife could do as much. I can write in two, a friend of mine
> can write in five. What is the big deal?

>* Hair was collected from Holocaust victims for use in textiles.
> This is quite a well-documented aspect of the Holocaust; I’ve
> personally seen such a collection of hair at Auschwitz. Why
> you find this appropriate for a giggle about a “hair fetish”
> is beyond me.

>You have not answered the second question, nor have you answered
>the third. You have provided some alleged snippets from the so-
>called confessions, but it’s not clear whether you gathered these
>snippets from authentic uncut texts of the confessions or are
>simply repeating out-of-context trash from Zuendel or the IHR or
>some other crypto-Nazi-wannabe site. You do snap back “Already
>posted as you know” when I point out your refusal to answer simple
>questions, but you have not, in fact, posted your source.

Excuse me, but as they come from the confessions it is of no merit who
repeats them or, as in the case of Hilberg, who deletes the incredible
parts to make Gerstein appear credible. Or is this selective editting
evidence that Hilberg is a holohoaxster? Any name calling has to go
both ways or neither way.

>Moreover, you suggest that some of the so-called confessions are
>forgeries. How does the existence of a forged confession reflect on
>Kurt Gerstein’s honesty? Am I allowed to use the supposedly forged
>messages under your name which appeared here recently to impugn
>your honesty?

Save that the ONLY evidence of his “honesty” is in fact the confessions.
Do you know of character witnesses for him? There is nothing else from
him in evidence.

>> Marching was what was of interest in that one. Want to get on to the
>>tampon and prussic acid claim next?

>What about it? It’s grotesque, but there is nothing essentially
>incredible about it to my knowledge. Is there something I’m missing
>here? Or is this just one of those instances where I’m supposed to
>find something “obviously phony” because you sneer at it? (A
>favorite Al Baron tactic, I recall.) Is there something essentially
>impossible going on here? Like a person being able to write in
>three languages, or a one-legged person marching, or the collection
>of Holocaust victims’ hair?

A couple minor things such as the person doing the holding is not long
for this world. The boiling point of HCN. As Greenie will certainly
tell you, the high vapor pressure. The tampon is only the sexual
overtone to the absurdity.

>> Precisely the point. Testimony on gassing is as forged and false as
>>testimony on steaming, electrocution and vacuum chambers.

>Huh? One or more of the confessions attributed to Gerstein, for the
>existence of which we still have no more than your word, is forged,
>ergo all testimony concerning the Holocaust is phony? I guess by
>that standard John Fitzgerald Kennedy was never assassinated.

For JFK we have a body. We have a murder weapon. We have bullet holes
in the body.

We do not have any evidence of anyone ever having been gassed, not one
body, autopsy, nothing. We don’t have gas chambers. I can’t change
that.

There is nothing particularly credible about any of the testimony. The
longer they are the more contrary to fact things get recounted.

>> I posted quotes from his confession (i.e., the source.) What is it you
>>have missed? Is this what you missed?

>You have posted paraphrases and supposed snippets from alleged
>confessions. Where did you get this information? Does your source
>reproduce one or more of the supposed confessions in full, or are
>you just repeating out-of-context crap from the IHR? Where can I
>find complete texts of these alleged confessions?

It is on the web. Spend your time finding it. The holohuggers have
been less than forthcoming with many things.

But of course, we have been over the “out of context” claim before and
have established that holohuggers do the same thing but it is OK for
them to do it. So that is not a valid commentary on what I have done.

>> Kurt Gerstein is often referred to as a Holocaust “witness”; however,
>>this is not correct. By “witness”, one normally understands a person who
>>has seen something and who appears to testify as to his personal
>>knowledge; Gerstein did not do that. Gerstein was an unsworn affiant or
>>deponent, which means that he is simply a name appearing at the end of a
>>”statement” typewritten in French, which he may or may not have written.

>This is correct. To clear up a possible confusion, I would point out that
>Gerstein did indeed have intimate personal knowledge of the Holocaust; he
>was, strictly speaking, a perpetrator; however, since he died in unclear
>circumstances (suicide, or murder by vengeful French, or murder by fellow
>German prisoners who knew he was prepared to spill the beans), he was not
>available to personally give testimony on the witness stand, or to be
>cross-examined.

You have no way of knowing what he knew without the confessions. You
are caught in a circle here.

>> It is far more probable that the statement was written in French by a
>>German Jewish interrogator-“interpreter”, and that some of the
>>inconsistencies (such as winter occuring in August, or being in a car in
>>one sentence, and a train in the next) resulted from imperfect
>>transcription of the notes of interrogation into affidavit form.

>Quite credible, and no reflection on Gerstein’s honesty. I do
>wonder whether the ethnic affiliation of Gerstein’s interrogator
>concerns a particular known individual, or whether this is
>speculation, and if the latter, why the writer is so speculating.

Again, your only evidence of honesty are these confessions.

>> In
>>minor war crimes trials and Japanese war crimes trials, unsworn
>>”statements” of this kind are fairly common, on the theory that they
>>possess “probative value” but less “weight” than sworn statements.

>Perfectly sensible.

Absolutely absurd and backwards, else rumor has more weight than oath.

>> It is
>>also possible that Gerstein died of injuries sustained during
>”interrogation” . . . .

>In the absence of knowledge, much is “possible.” Does the writer
>have a specific reason to seize on this particular possibility?
>Does he (in light of his implication that Gerstein’s interrogator
>was Jewish) want to blame this, too, on the Jews?

It is giving the benefit of the doubt. Would have thought you would
appreciate that.

>> This document was later extensively quoted in the Pohl Trial, where it
>>was “proven” that Treblinka had 10 ‘gas chambers’ (1553-PS) and 10
>>’steam chambers’ (3311-PS) in the same camp at the same time.

>This is the sort of meaningless, out-of-context crap that makes me
>suspect that its source is Zuendel or some asshole of similar
>reputation. What is *your source* for the above? Still ashamed to
>answer?

Find it. Have you figured out how to do a web search?

If this stuff is so important and this person is so credible, you would
expect to find it on Nizkor. But don’t start there.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 10:47:59 PDT 1996
Article: 23158 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Chuckles’ foot-in-mouth (was: Griswald’s stupidity)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:57:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:

>Grizzled old fart Chuckles Ferree ([email protected]) writes:
>> Chuck Ferree wrote:

>> Would you call, stacks of dead bodies, all naked, all with no flesh on
>> their bones, stacked about 5-6 ft high at least thirty to fifty yards
>> long and ten to fifteen feet wide, evidence or proof of something
>> similar to “exterminations?” This was Buchenwald, and the crematoriums
>> were still working until the troops found how to shut them down.

>Puh-leeze. I’d call stacks of dead bodies evidence of, well, stacks of
>dead bodies.

What I find fascinating is how truly stupid the people he claims to be
with were. They had to “find out” how to shut them down. One would
have thought they would realize that if you stop putting bodies in the
cremation stops. But of course, these troops must have found one of
those automated ones.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:21 PDT 1996
Article: 10449 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:57:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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This all seems very out of place with what I have always heard
about World War II.

Most all of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in
WW II that you have heard are clearly war propaganda. Now before
you get turned off, I am not going to defend Nazi Germany in the
least. I am going primarily state facts that you should have
learned in grade school. There is more to it than I and going to
discuss in this section.
Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
declared war on Germany. There you have the way it is always
presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation
for this? If England’s reason for declaring war upon Germany was
just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
Clearly the reason for declaring war does not support the
facts of the joint Russian-German invasion of Poland. Was this
ever pointed out to you in history class? In fact it points to
Germany being the butt of a diplomatic doublecross between Russia
and England.

So what else is there to this?

In the partition of Poland, Germany was taking back part of
Germany that had been given to Poland at the end of WW I. That
land had been part of Germany for centuries.
Since the end of WW I Poland had been expelling Polish
citizens of German descent and taking their land as they were
forced to emigrate.
Poland was also expelling Polish Jews into Germany.
Germany was operating refugee camps for these people along
the Polish border.
If you want to go into Nazi antisemitism, there are still
problems. Despite all the rhetoric in the Nazi speeches there
were no actions taken by the Nazis against the Jews until a week
after every major Jewish organization in the world announced a
permanent economic boycott of all German goods and services. The
first response of the Nazis was to organize a one day boycott of
Jewish merchants in Germany. Ordinarily holocaust sources will
tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
Jewish boycott that was permanent.
After there was no lifting of the world wide Jewish boycott,
the Nazis introduced other measures against the Jews which were
primarily matters of national security and LESS severe than what
happened to Japanese Americans during WW II.
If you want to go into war preparation, there is another
clear problem we have to deal with. Germany was unprepared for
war with England.
For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England’s
greatest weapons against Germany was a naval blockade. And in
that war Germany’s greatest weapon against the naval blockade was
the submarine. At the time England selectively declared war on
Germany, Germany had exactly 27 submarines.
Despite what you might hear in the WW II documentaries, they
were being sunk as fast as they were being built. There were
never more than 29 operational submarines at any one time. The
damage you see is due to the anti-submarine warfare technology
and tactics of the day being such that a torpedo hit was the
first indication of a German submarine in the area. The sonars
were only good enough help find them after heading in the
direction of the best guess as to where the submarine was.
What this adds up to is that there was clearly no
expectation of a war with England as a result of the partition of
Poland with Russia.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:26 PDT 1996
Article: 10532 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Nazi War Schedule – Was the gun jumped?
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 06:05:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>says…
>>
>>>> My guess is that if Britain and France had allowed Hitler to swallow
>>>>Poland unimpeded, the war would have begun in 1941, with a summer campaign
>>>>against the Soviet Union. Allied inaction in 1939 wold certainly have
>>>>encouraged the Fuehrer to discount a French ground offensive.
>>>>But who knows?
>>
>>.
>>
>> How about this what-if?
>>
>> England truly guarantees Poland’s security by declaring war upon
>>both agressors, Germany AND Russia.
>>
>> What happens then?
>>
>>
>The Allies lose the war. The world turns into a totalitarian hell.

How? The clear intentions, even supported by the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, are that Hitler’s objective was the Lebensraum from the old
Reich to the Urals and nothing more. The world domination thing was war
propaganda.

It appears it would have either been the downfall of Britain at the
hands of nations that were already allied in one respect. The rest of
the Brit (ex-Brit) empire was quite unreachable. Certainly the US would
never have permitted an attack upon Canada and given the Japanese was
already committed to the defense of Australia. That would leave little
of interest that did not evolve similarly with post war independence.

It England had refrained for declaring war on Germany then the US would
have been free to clean up the Japanese in less time than it would take
to develop the bomb thus changing that entire aspect of history.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 10534 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:07:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…
>>
>> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>>with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>>brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>>war with England?

>Piss off, nazi.

There is a wise response.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 10539 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 06:11:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Goodman) wrote:

>Seems to me that in _this_ newsgroup, the way to deal with revisionists
>is: Demand that they write about the alternate world in which the
>Holocaust _did_ occur, and specifically about how it would have to be
>different from ours.

Agenda, no response.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 10540 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 06:27:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Gary Cruse ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> “Richard C. Rostrom” >> Clearly
>the reason for declaring war does not support the
>>> facts of the joint Russian-German invasion of Poland. Was this
>>> ever pointed out to you in history class? In fact it points to
>>> Germany being the butt of a diplomatic doublecross between Russia
>>> and England.
>>
>>Haven’t you ever heard of the Molotov-von Ribbentrop agreement?
>>Anti-Communism was a staple of Nazi propaganda, and Communists
>>denounced Nazism just as loudly. Then, in late August 1939,
>>the Soviet and German governments announced a treaty of non-
>>aggression and cooperation, stunning the whole world.

> And haven’t you ever heard of “The Phony War?”
> Britain and France both *declared* war in accordance
> with the treaty. But neither actually prosecuted one.
> Apparently Poland wasn’t worth defending if it
> came down to actually risking life.

Then it was a damn fool thing to do was it not?

Or maybe a clever thing. Remember that Panama formally declared war
upon the US. That made Noriega a POW and his is now being treated in
accordance to his rank according to the Geneva convention. I have no
idea what those conditions are but consider how Eisenhower would have
had to have been treated by the Germans.

In any event, declaring war is more than an act of war, it is war. The
Brits did immediately set up a naval blockade which is an act of war.
France was passive, simply waiting for the German attack to cut them
down at the Maginot Line.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:29 PDT 1996
Article: 10543 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Giwer – Holocaust revisionist
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:39:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:42:11 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>Dear virtual inhabitants of shwi,

>Our new friend Matt Giwer is in fact an old hand at telling lies over
>USENET. He’s not some ignorant and badly educated red-neck. He’s part of
>the world-wide far-right project to deny that the Holocaust happened.
>Luckily for us, there’s enough evidence around to make them look very silly,
>as long as we’re prepared to do a little fact-checking overselves. I ran a
>little search on him via Alta Vista, and a lot of interesting dirt got dug
>up.

You appear to be giving me an oustanding reference for participation in
a what if conference.

>Attached is a post that Ken McVay of the Nizkor project put up on
>soc.history and alt.revisionist last week. Obviously we are coming in
>half-way through an argument between McVey and Giwer, but I think we can get
>the general drift of it: Giwer is a lying anti-semite.

Ken McVay is not above lying, promoting what even he does not believe
and is a general all around nerfbrain.

So what is your point in all of this?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 10545 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:04:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 3:07:56 AM CDT 1996
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Bydyn <"Bydyn"@ix.netcom,com> wrote:

>You wrote:

>> This all seems very out of place with what I have always heard
>> about World War II.

>> Most all of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in
>> WW II that you have heard are clearly war propaganda.

>Mein Kampf is hardly allied war time propiganda, if you had ever read it you would see
>many of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in WW II in “Der Feurer’s” own
>words. There is no shortage of captured German documents outlining exactly (and step by
>step) what their plans and intentions were.

I can read Conscience of a Conservative and find condemnations of
liberals.

Beyond that, there are no such documents as stated under oath by
Hilberg.

But this is not the subject of this NG.

Let us try to stay on topic here.

>> Now before
>> you get turned off, I am not going to defend Nazi Germany in the
>> least. I am going primarily state facts that you should have
>> learned in grade school.

>One of the things I learned in grade school, high school, and college was to go to
>primary sources where ever possible. This is why I DID read Mein Kampf (in translation,
>as I don’t read or speak German, but I still waded through the bloody thing), got hold
>of a copy of the Nazi Party Handbook, and read histories of the war from at least three
>countries besides the USA (one writen by a Swiss military officwer was particularly
>interesting.)

><----------------some stuff that was very well answered by Richard C. Rostrom deleted >——————————->

Nothing you will quote though. And nothing you can back up from what-if
history as is the topic here.

>> If you want to go into Nazi antisemitism, there are still
>> problems. Despite all the rhetoric in the Nazi speeches there
>> were no actions taken by the Nazis against the Jews until a week
>> after every major Jewish organization in the world announced a
>> permanent economic boycott of all German goods and services. The
>> first response of the Nazis was to organize a one day boycott of
>> Jewish merchants in Germany. Ordinarily holocaust sources will
>> tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
>> than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
>> Jewish boycott that was permanent.
>
>The attempted anihlation of an entire race is a rather disproportionate response to a
>boycot.

A fact not in evidence as you well know if you ever bothered to read the
Wannsee Protocol. I do agree though, you are indulging in what-if
history in your claim. What if that was the intention? How did they
fail so miserably given their complete control of the situation?

But please, let us stick to the purpose of this NG.

>> After there was no lifting of the world wide Jewish boycott,
>> the Nazis introduced other measures against the Jews which were
>> primarily matters of national security and LESS severe than what
>> happened to Japanese Americans during WW II.

>My dad has a couple of friends whose families were Nisse intered in one of the American
>camps, they (my dad’s friends) servered in one of the Nisse battalions and had a chance
>to tour one of the camps that the Americans liberated, I suspect that they would
>disagree rather strongly with you on this point.

If the US had lost the war and camp conditions deteriorated you would
have seen the same thing.

If the end conditions in the SS camps were the same for the entire
existence of the camps no one could have survived. I do not see where
there is any quesiton of that.

Auschwitz is a fine example. The Wiesels and the Franks both decided to
evacuate with the Germans rather than be liberated by the Russians.
Whoever was left behind was unable to survive the evacuation. Everyone
was bombing the supply lines to the camp.

>> If you want to go into war preparation, there is another
>> clear problem we have to deal with. Germany was unprepared for
>> war with England.
>> For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England’s
>> greatest weapons against Germany was a naval blockade. And in
>> that war Germany’s greatest weapon against the naval blockade was
>> the submarine. At the time England selectively declared war on
>>Germany, Germany had exactly 27 submarines.

>Hitler never had a great deal of faith in the German Navy, he chose to put his faith in
>air power instead.

That is a different issue but it is at least on topic.

It is unclear that anyone knowing the military impact of the British
naval blockade during WW I could underestimate the value of submarines.

It is difficult to imagine that this could not have been explained to
Hitler in the clearest terms. And in light of the Bismark it is clear
that the “show” value of the Navy was appreciated.

Although submarines are part of the Navy it is not clear why the clear
lesson of WW I would not have been not only heeded but repeated. It
appears to me to be a clear indication of no expectation whatsoever of a
war with Britain.

>Hitlers own statement: “I have a National Socialist Air Fource, a reactionary Army, and
>a Christian Navy!” Given this frame of mind is it much wonder that Goering’s opinions
>and demands on Germany’s war production tended to prevail over those of the admirals?

As a matter of interest he did not have an NSDAP air force. That was
the strongest resistance to party infiltration. I think you are putting
too much into speeches.

>When the war broke out, plans called for the construction and entry into service of
>U-boats of 29 per MONTH!

That is replacement rate at best. But it clearly points to no
expectation of war with Britain.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:31 PDT 1996
Article: 10551 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 06:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 11:13:46 PM PDT 1996
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Alan Lothian wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> Matt Giwer wrote :

> an extraordinary confection of dogs’ bollocks, to which I was foolish
>enough to start to reply.

>
> I abandoned it half-way through, because it’s not much fun responding to
>the rantings of a true-believer Holocaust revisionist. To Giwer I’d simply
>say: go and read some sodding history. Won’t do any good, though: these
>people never do.

> Instead, I found myself asking a basic question: why does a certain
>type of person believe crap of this nature, especially when it’s
>anti-Semitic?

> It’s quite widespread, too: back in the 1920s, even The Times took the
> Protocols of the Elders of Zion seriously. Yet if you’ve ever read the
> thing, you’ll have seen it instantly for a farrago of nonsense, riddled
> with inconsistencies and about as plausible as tales of alien abduction.

> But then, lots of people believe in tales of alien abduction, too,
> which at least goes to prove that rampant nonsensism isn’t *always*
> anti-Semitic.
>

> Are we talking brain damage, here: or is it some kind of operating
> system (a two-bit OS?) bug that causes mind to crash?

> As my favourite Spanish Civil War general (Nerva) said:
> “Down with intelligence! Long live death!”

If you have an agenda rather than in interest in discussing alternate
history, what are you doing here?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 10554 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: There was never a Holocaust (not revisionist)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:42:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:44:57 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (jonathan edelstein) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: >: Was it really like this? I thought that Zionism in Palestine was increasing
>: >: its momentum up to the end of the 1930s.

>: >Even after the 1930s. The Haganah, Irgun etc. were at their most active
>: >against the British during the 1940s,

>: The Haganah were legitimate freedom fighters. The Irgun were
>: murdering terrorists. Why put them in the same sentence?

>Because they had the same objective, because both regarded themselves
>(rightly or wrongly) as Zionists, and because both were active during the
>1940s. I wasn’t making any moral judgments with that sentence, only
>making the point that Zionism didn’t run out of steam after the 1930s.

I would hold it an assault upon the honor of the Haganah and the IDF to
be compared to the Irgun.

>You are, of course, right about the moral comparison between the Haganah
>and Irgun – and I would probably think so even if I hadn’t had family in
>the Haganah.

And I have seen way too many people trying to deny the terrorism of the
Irgun.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 10556 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Nazi War Schedule – Was the gun jumped?
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:44:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:47:55 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…
>>
>I wrote

>>>So let’s say that Chamberlain doesn’t guarantee Poland. Maybe the RAF
>>>actually do a proper air exercise (gun-cameras?) and find out that the
>>>bomber will *not* get through. And have a positively Damascene
>conversion.
>>>And convince Baldwin.

>Giwer wrote

>> How about this what-if?
>>
>> England truly guarantees Poland’s security by declaring war upon
>>both agressors, Germany AND Russia.
>>
>> What happens then?

>What the fuck’s ‘England’, piss-brain? Know-nothing fascist scum like you
>have as much grasp of geography as you have of politics and morality.

How civilized. Pardon me for asking.

>Oh, the answer’s ‘Britain gets creamed’, by the way.

>Come over here and I’ll deliver it, and much else, in person.

In other words you will not consider the possibility that Britain was
interested in Poland but concede the purpose was war with Germany.

That was my point.

Even some “what ifs” incite name calling by the brainless.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 10560 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:18:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:21:26 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Arnesen) wrote:

>Chris Williams ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: says…
>: >
>: > What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>: >with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>: >brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>: >war with England?

>: Piss off, nazi.

>So someone’s a nazi if they ask a historically isgnificant question about
>the Germans in WWII huh *doh*

>Anyway…

>If the Germans build THAT many subs they probably could have sealed the North
>Sea and the Atlantic. Thus no North Sea Lend Lease to the USSR, no help
>from the U.S. either. Britian also would have had a damn hard time getting
>troops to france and any that did would have no hope of a Dunkirk.

>After France falls and the Luftwaffe begin their raids on Britian, coupled
>with the practical closure of Britians supply routes from off island
>sources, she would have certaintly fell.

>Note that the British government discussed capitulating near the end
>of the Battle of Britian. Also if they had had 500 and continued to build
>during the war i do not see the British Navy as a major factor without
>adequate anti-sub warfare means to protect their large capital ships.

And there was no techically possible ASW at that time to protect
anything. I spent 20 years working in ASW for the Navy. Literally, in
those days save for the rarest of events, submarine detection consisted
of a torpedo slamming into a ship.

Sonar was so primitive that it was only considered of serious use to
guide depth charge attacks IF and only IF you were lucky enough to guess
which direction they ran after firing.

>Once Britian capitulates the Germans could have sealed off the Atlantic,
>moved most of their forces East and taken out the unprepared Russians in no time. Also >they could have attacked through Africa via the Caucasus once Afrika
>Corps moved through a British army that would have had very limited supplies.

And the “nazi” complaint you read above is based upon his assumption
that pointing out Germany was unprepared for war with England in some
manner distorts the correct view of history that England was innocent in
the war. Or, in the curse Germany terms, there is only one side to WW
II.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 10561 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:21:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:24:09 AM CDT 1996
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Julian Barker wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Richard Arnesen
> writes
>>
>>
>>If the Germans build THAT many subs they probably could have sealed the North
>>Sea and the Atlantic. Thus no North Sea Lend Lease to the USSR, no help
>>from the U.S. either. Britian also would have had a damn hard time getting
>>troops to france and any that did would have no hope of a Dunkirk.
>>
>>

>But Britain would never have allowed that many subs. Doenitz wasn’t the
>only person to learn from WWI.

>Buildin that many subs was against several treaties and would have been
>more likely to cause Britain and France to fight in 1938 than any
>threats against Czechoslovakia ever could.

Except that England’s only response to building that many subs would
have been a declaration of war. But as you note there was no objection
to the number of fighters, tanks and the like particularly when almost
no military aircraft at all were permitted.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:38 PDT 1996
Article: 10562 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:24:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:27:30 AM CDT 1996
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>>with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>>brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>>war with England?

> German resources from 1933-1939 were relatively slender–500 subs means
>many fewer panzers, ac, and infantry units. Germany is beaten by the
>Czechs in ’38, or conquered by the Poles in ’39, or, more likely yet, the
>French in ’36.

Fine with me. How about 100 given what a max of 29 were capable of?

How many would it have taken to stop the British blockade and hinder the
resupply ships to England?

That max number almost did it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 10563 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:25:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:28:07 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jamie Scott) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>>with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>>brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>>war with England?

> Here’s another question, what if the British airforce was on par
>with the Germans circa 1939-40? I’d like to see you lie your way thrue
>this one.

What agenda are you bringing to this discussion?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 10576 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: There was never a Holocaust (not revisionist)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:37:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:40:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Joseph Askew) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> But you have to keep in mind that the Soviet Union is the primary
>>to nearly only source of gassing stories, convictions even for
>>steaming people to death. It is not clear why you would except
>>the SU from this when they are the source of it.

>Spare us the bullshit. There are any number of reliable
>sources for the Holocaust starting with a huge number of
>survivors most of who lived in the West or Israel. There
>are astacks of documents, confessions, and other historical
>documentation. Again little of which comes from the Soviet
>Union. This sort of revisionist spew is disgusting and really
>does not belong here or anywhere where sane people might gather.

Excuse me but that only indicates you have never examined what you are
talking about.

For example …

IMT refers to International Military Tribunal. No one believes anyone
was steamed to death any more but here is clear testimony to the fact
including descriptions. We also have a man, Pohl, who was convicted of
steaming people to death, something that never occurred.

BTW: This was a random selection. Do you want more?

And if you will look at the division of responsibility for the IMT,
Russia was solely responsible for evidence of crimes which occurred in
territories they liberated. All of the extermination camps were in
areas that they liberated.

In fact you will find the Iron Curtain also excluded non-Russian
investgators.

Is this a history NG or a holocaust apologist NG? At least lets keep
this discussion on some sort of serious level.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:42 PDT 1996
Article: 10577 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: There was never a Holocaust (not revisionist)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:28:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:31:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…

>>[email protected] (Widya Santoso) wrote:

>>>Although there were movements after the First World War towards the
>>>establishment of a Jewish nation, it (IMHO) was never pursued to any
>>>tangible effect. It was only after the Second World War, with the
>>>collective shame of the victorious nations (save the Soviet Union),
>>>that Israel came about.
>>
>> But you have to keep in mind that the Soviet Union is the primary
>>to nearly only source of gassing stories, convictions even for
>>steaming people to death. It is not clear why you would except
>>the SU from this when they are the source of it.

>Y G H I A F A.

>Aside from braindead above, if you want to find out the truth about the
>Holocaust, and about the motivation and methods of scum who try to deny it,
>you could do a lot worse than point your Web-browser at Ken McVay’s ‘Nizkor
>Project’, on:

> http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca/
> anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/

Been there, done that, it is a marvelous source of material for
revisionists. I can even find a marvelously conflicting story of the
first use of Zyklon B there.

At best Nizkor is a vanity site. It contributes nothing to the subject.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 10593 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:05:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 133
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:08:14 AM PDT 1996
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> Clearly the reason for declaring war does not support the
>>facts of the joint Russian-German invasion of Poland. Was this
>>ever pointed out to you in history class? In fact it points to
>>Germany being the butt of a diplomatic doublecross between Russia
>>and England.

>This is perfect nonsense: the Molotov-Ribbentrop was a Rsussian betrayal
>of Poland and, to a lesser extent, the Western Allies–the idea of an
>Anglo-Russian doublecross of Germany is absurd.

I am suggesting that collusion between Britain and Russia was behind the
betrayal to give England (and perhaps France) an excuse to declare war
on Germany.

I am not here to revise history but I once had this book “On Strategy”
and there was an extensive section on the preparations for what became
WW I. It had started with the Franco-Prussian war. Open and secret
agreements were the rule of the day for decades. So were open and
secret strategies.

[That may not be the right title but strategy was in the title. This
particular section was very, very boring but I slogged through it just
for the wonder of the intrigues.]

I find it wholely unbelievable that things suddenly became so simple in
1939. Despite the was WW I is taught, it was a very complex matter.
The famous assassination that is supposed to have started WW I would
have lead to a different alignment a decade earlier.

We have this view today of nations banding for mutual security. That
was not the objective in those days. The objective was to be in the
best position after the next war as everyone was planning for the next
war for their own advantage.

It was literally as if heads of state today were to announce treaty
changes so that when the next war came their countries would be in a
position for the greatest concessions from the losers. And treaty
changes would be common.

>> In the partition of Poland, Germany was taking back part of
>>Germany that had been given to Poland at the end of WW I. That
>>land had been part of Germany for centuries.
>> Since the end of WW I Poland had been expelling Polish
>>citizens of German descent and taking their land as they were
>>forced to emigrate.
>> Poland was also expelling Polish Jews into Germany.
>> Germany was operating refugee camps for these people along
>>the Polish border.
>> If you want to go into Nazi antisemitism, there are still
>>problems. Despite all the rhetoric in the Nazi speeches there
>>were no actions taken by the Nazis against the Jews until a week
>>after every major Jewish organization in the world announced a
>>permanent economic boycott of all German goods and services. The
>>first response of the Nazis was to organize a one day boycott of
>>Jewish merchants in Germany. Ordinarily holocaust sources will
>>tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
>>than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
>>Jewish boycott that was permanent.
>> After there was no lifting of the world wide Jewish boycott,
>>the Nazis introduced other measures against the Jews which were
>>primarily matters of national security and LESS severe than what
>>happened to Japanese Americans during WW II.

>The interwar Polish state was indeed anti-semitic, also anti-Ukrainian
>and Bylorussian–and very mildly anti-Volksdeutsch. The idea that
>pre-war Nazi anti-semitism produced measures more mild than the US
>treatment of Japanese US citizens, and primarily national-security
>induced, is near-Holocaust revisionism: the 1938 pogroms? The Nuremburg
>Laws?

Excuse me but it is difficult to compare the restrictions of the
Nuremberg laws to “you will live here and not leave unless you enlist
and fight in Europe.” Just who were they going to marry if not each
other? Just what professions were they going to practice in the camps?

You do know what the Nuremberg laws are in detail, do you not? They had
every effect of the Japanese-American internment without wholesale
internment. I do not see how you can say adding internment was milder.

As for national security induced, read was I read. In the middle of the
worst of the Depression which only made Versailles worse, the World
Jewish Congress declared an economic boycott upon Germany. I have a
newspaper account of what that meant to Germany some place if you would
like it.

As I said DESPITE the RHETORIC there were NO actions taken against any
Jews until after that boycott was declared. By analogy, there has been
liberal bashing and redneck bashing and fundamentalist bashing going on
in this country since 1980.

Hell, that is hardly the beginning of the list of the bashing that has
existed in this country.

No one had done anything in this country. It was no different with the
Nazis.

Now suddenly the International Redneck Organization does something that
will harm the US. Would the US not respond against its own rednecks?

Not likely, as we have 200 years of our democracy and civil liberties
and all that goes with it. Germany had had exactly 15 years of
anything like we have and it was a pale imitation at that.

>> If you want to go into war preparation, there is another
>>clear problem we have to deal with. Germany was unprepared for
>>war with England…What this adds up to is that there was clearly no
>>expectation of a war with England as a result of the partition of
>>Poland with Russia.

>True enough. Hitler expected to conquer Poland and then, at his leisure,
>France, and then Russia–and he expected to settle accounts with England
>along the way, and eventually with the US. And he intended to murder and
>enslave tens of millions in the process. He’d said so in print, many
>times in person, and he did his best to do so. His best was pretty good.

Actually, even from the wildest speeches, the only claim was from the
Alt Reich to the Urals, Lebensraum. Even the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s
Q&A says that and they are no lovers of Nazis. You are talking about
war time propaganda which justified US involvement in that war.

Granted that Germany declared war upon the US but then the US could have
sued for peace and if the US had agreed to stop supporting England I see
no reason why there would not have been peace. Misunderstanding the US
was a fatal flaw of course. The US actually decided things based upon
opinion and feeling rather than rational self interest.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 10596 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:35:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:38:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Kenneth L. Sobel) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, From
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer), the following was written:

>> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>> with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>> brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>> war with England?

>Dear Matt,

>I would think it rather depends on what Germany would =not= have
>been able to build if it had instead built the 500 u-boats. With
>these extra naval resources, their success in the Battle of the
>Atlantic would undoubtedly have been better. But by building these
>u-boats perhaps they would have had to do with 3000 less Bf-109s,
>which would have made the Battle of Britain a lot easier for the
>RAF. Or maybe they would have had 2000 fewer tanks and would never
>have been able to win the Battle of France.

Well taken.

But then since France was sitting passively behind the Maginot Line
waiting to mow down Germans that attack need never have taken place.
So of we trade off tanks for subs we still have the BOB won. (Planes
can not weigh that much.)

But once Britain had surrendered and they had control of the Atlantic
the threat from France, even if it turned agressive was minimal. And
since the subs could have taken out England there was no need for an air
Battle fo Britain in the first place as there would be no US supplies or
support.

Then as long as they avoided the war with Russia (given that Britain and
France were neutralized) there was no one left to fight. OR all efforts
could have been focussed upon Russia and if they had survived the winter
would have won. And then there would have been the Lebensraum that was
the original objective.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 10620 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:02:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jamie Scott) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> This all seems very out of place with what I have always heard
>>about World War II.

>> Most all of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in
>>WW II that you have heard are clearly war propaganda. Now before
>>you get turned off, I am not going to defend Nazi Germany in the
>>least. I am going primarily state facts that you should have
>>learned in grade school. There is more to it than I and going to
>>discuss in this section.

> My, are we not being just a little condencending? Grade School?
>Here in British Columbia, we don’t study WWII to grade 11-12 (about the
>time you dropped out to marry your sister and open a Nazi “R” Us story)

I have no idea of the deficiencies of BC education but I learned of the
partition of Poland by Germany and Russia around the 6th grade at the
latest. But then, that was in the 50s. Perhaps things have degraded
terribly since then.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 10621 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:08:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Eric Palo wrote:

>> >In article <[email protected]>, From
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer), the following was written:
>>
>> >> What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for a war
>> >> with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>> >> brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>> >> war with England?

>What is England doing while Germany is turning out submarines like
>sausages? Do you think Germany could hide that many boats?

Ignore it of course, just like they ignored violations of aircraft and
tank production of course. There was no hiding of the planes or tanks.
And subs are easier to hide.

>You can’t postulate 500 German submarines without also considering a
>different UK Navy ready to deal with them.

There was no effective way to deal with submarines at the time. In fact
there was no effective way to deal with submarines until about the mid
1970s.

>I don’t know what the UK response would have been, but I will wager a lot
>that there would have been one, and probably quite effective. Remember that
>they had a taste of submarine warfare in WWI and should have known what that
>many boats would mean.

With 20 years in sonar and ASW I have no idea what that response could
have been prior to computers.

Perhaps you could enlighten me.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 10713 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:33:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:35:16 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael Akinde) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jamie Scott) writes:
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> Poland was also expelling Polish Jews into Germany.
>>> Germany was operating refugee camps for these people along
>>>the Polish border.
>> So you are saying that because the Poles weren’t nice to the Jews
>>that they deserved to be attacked, but the extermination of 6 million
>>jews by Germans didn’t warrent an attack?

>Refugee camps? Oh, you mean Auschwitz.

No. That was a work camp.

I am talking about the camps Germany ran along the Polish border to
handle the German descent Polish citizens and Jews that were being
expelled from Poland. The number is put at a million between the wars.

>>>tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
>>>than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
>>>Jewish boycott that was permanent.

>> You make the Nazi boycott sound so civilized. Why don’t you
>>mention how the Nazi “boycotted” Jews stores. As in beating, killings,
>>looting ect. Also, why don’t you mention work camps, and what went on
>>there? Slave labour ring any bells? As for the Nazi boycott not
>>lasting, no I would say they just got a lot more extreme in their
>>treatment of jews and other minorities (see work camps)

>Not to mention the polish and other slav peoples who received
>the same treatment as the Jews. Or Hitler’s carte blanche order
>that the wehrmacht was free to exterminate russians as they
>felt like.

The boycott was on 1 April 1933. It lasted one day. The week before
that the World Jewish Congress announced a world wide, permanent
economic boycott of Germany.

Part of what you folks appear to be talking about was Krystallnacht in
1938, noting that is 5 years later.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 10714 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Revisionism
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:03:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 4:05:09 PM CDT 1996
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From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 10716 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:23:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> If the US had lost the war and camp conditions deteriorated you would
>>have seen the same thing.
>>
>> If the end conditions in the SS camps were the same for the entire
>>existence of the camps no one could have survived. I do not see where
>>there is any quesiton of that.
>>
>> Auschwitz is a fine example. The Wiesels and the Franks both decided to
>>evacuate with the Germans rather than be liberated by the Russians.
>>Whoever was left behind was unable to survive the evacuation. Everyone
>>was bombing the supply lines to the camp.
>>
>>
> This sounds very much like the denial of the Holocaust. If that is
>what Mr. Giwer means, he should say so. By the way, no Jews “decided to
>evacuate with the Germans rather than be liberated by the
>Russians.”:–inmates were forcemarched out of the camps ahead of the
>advancing Red Army, and many were murdered along the roads by their
>guards. It sounds as if Giwer is indeed a Holocaust-Revsionist
>infiltrator on this list, as has been previously reported.

You would think there would be some history in a history conference.

Marches were only employed (and it is difficult to consider them forced
when people were given a choice to stay behind and be liberated) after
the rail system had been destroyed by bombings.

Elie Wiesel was in the infirmary (read, unable to work) at the time and
chose, along with his father, to march rather than be liberated.

Anne Frank and her father were shipped from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen
and did not march.

If this is going to be a discussion of history then let us discuss
history. The stories that have sprung up around the holocaust are
something else entirely.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:53 PDT 1996
Article: 10718 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionism as a framework
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:13:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:10718 alt.revisionism:44120

Since there are some people here who appear to have made it their
mission in live to continue the slanders of the thought control fanatics
on alt.revisionism, I would like to suggest the following.

What if the position of revisionists were the alternate history?

What would be different? Lets keep it simple, that there was no
antisemitism among the Nazis or the German people. The only difference
I can see is that there would have been some Jewish war criminals hung
at Nuremberg.

Or perhaps the US would have been incapable of developing the bomb while
the Nazis were and there would have been a lot of Americans hung at the
New York Trials.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:54 PDT 1996
Article: 10719 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:36:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>in response to Alan Lothian’s sensible speculations on the motives of
>Holocaust revisionists:

>> If you have an agenda rather than in interest in discussing alternate
>>history, what are you doing here?

>Aternate history is about what might have happened, but everyone agrees
>did not–whereas Holocaust revisionism is the attempt to deny that what
>did happen, didn’t. Thus Alan Lothian has no `agenda’–but Mr.Giwer, by
>previous postings revealing his record on other newsgroups, apparently
>does.

And, if that is your position, then changing what happened is in fact
exactly what this conference is all about.

Not so?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:55 PDT 1996
Article: 10721 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:50:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Godfrey Kwokfu Tang) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Eric Palo wrote:

>: >> >In article <[email protected]>, From
>: >> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer), the following was written:
>: >>

>: There was no effective way to deal with submarines at the time. In fact
>: there was no effective way to deal with submarines until about the mid
>: 1970s.

>This is flat out wrong. The most effective way to deal with
>submarines circa WWII was to route convoys around them. Hence,
>the importance of Ultra.

That of course would depend entirely upon the code breaking and the
continued ability at code breaking. But then the postulate was 500
submarines. There wouldn’t be many places to route around in that case.

>Of course, I am not by specialty a naval historian, so I’m not
>going to try to reconstruct the Atlantic campaign on a
>counter-factual basis. But it is worth noting that 40-50 VLR
>aircraft went a long way towards closing the mid-Atlantic gap –
>assuming that the u-boats could have precipitated a shipping
>crisis so much earlier,they would forced and earlier Allied response.

>: >they had a taste of submarine warfare in WWI and should have known what that
>: >many boats would mean.

>: With 20 years in sonar and ASW I have no idea what that response could
>: have been prior to computers.

>: Perhaps you could enlighten me.

>U-boats tended to fight on the surface when possible –

Who? Torpedo launching on the surface?

the only
>the later models which never reached full production were
>intended to operate submerged for extended periods of time.

>Which is why improved RADAR was so important to Allied victory –
>escorting planes and escort vessels could pick off U-boats as
>they approached, or at least force them to submerge, which
>severely limited their radius of action.

It is not clear what difference radar would have made except at night.

>I would have to surmise that any sub 20 years old today would far
>out-match anything the Germans could build in quantity in 1940.

20 years old today is nuclear. That’s a safe bet.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:56 PDT 1996
Article: 10731 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:43:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Cheradenine Zakalwe wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Matt Giwer
> writes:
>>>I don’t know what the UK response would have been, but I will wager a lot
>>>that there would have been one, and probably quite effective. Remember that
>>>they had a taste of submarine warfare in WWI and should have known what that
>>>many boats would mean.
>>
>> With 20 years in sonar and ASW I have no idea what that response could
>>have been prior to computers.
>>
>> Perhaps you could enlighten me.
>>

>The British would have increased food production, and stockpiled
>strategic raw materials. They might also have developed “reprisal
>weapons” such as anthrax bombs. (Which they did histrorically develop,
>but didn’t use).

How would this be a response to a larger number of submarines?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:57 PDT 1996
Article: 10733 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Nazi War Schedule – Was the gun jumped?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:03:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Giwer The
>Holocaust Revisionist says…

>> In other words you will not consider the possibility that Britain
>was
>>interested in Poland but concede the purpose was war with Germany.
>>
>> That was my point.

>Bollocks. Your point is to exonerate your beloved nazis from any
>responsiblity for the war.

I have no idea why you wish to continue your malicious slanders.

>My point is to argue that this is not true.

>> Even some “what ifs” incite name calling by the brainless.

>No, that’s ‘of’ the brainless. As those who hang out here for any length of
>time will testify, normal political or historical disagreements tend not to
>bring me out in invective.

>Obscene lying scumbags like you do. You are a waste of good fertilizer, and
>even as I sit here you are breathing decent people’s oxygen. I hope you
>either see the error of your ways or get hit by a fucking meteorite as soon
>as possible. Die, fucker.

How mature. How appropriate to the conference.

When you get out of college and into the real world for a few years, get
back to me.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 10734 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:54:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <4pn78g$7ki#brtph500.bnr.ca>
> Richard Arnesen declaims
>>Chris Williams ([email protected]) wrote:
>>: In article <[email protected]>,
>>: [email protected] says…
>>: >
>>: > What if Germany had built 500 submarines in preparation for
>>: >a war with England instead of only 27? What change might that have
>>: >brought upon either the course of the war or the expectation of a
>>: >war with England?

>>: Piss off, nazi.

>>So someone’s a nazi if they ask a historically isgnificant question
>>about the Germans in WWII huh *doh*

>No, Matt “IQ 163” Giwer is a Nazi on the Duck Principle. He is reputedly
>a fat drunk and demonstrably a troller, antisemite, liar and hypocrite.
>If you would care for proof, I suggest that you consult the excellent
>Nizkor archive at http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (under people probably) for
>a catalogue of the Giwer’s wit and wisdom or dejanews for the Giwer’s
>lies posted to alt.revisionism. Prepare to be underwhelmed by the dizzy
>heights of Giwunderean prose, tortable paupacies and all.

Malicious slander started by people who demand everyone believe as they
believe.

>>Anyway…

>>If the Germans build THAT many subs they probably could have sealed the
>>North Sea and the Atlantic. Thus no North Sea Lend Lease to the USSR,
>>no help from the U.S. either. Britian also would have had a damn hard
>>time getting troops to france and any that did would have no hope of a
>>Dunkirk.

>A few points to ponder before leaping to any conclusions :-

>1. 500 submarines at an average of 1000 tonnes each is about half a
>million tonnes of warships. That’s significantly more than Weimar and
>the Nazis had completed between 1930 and 1940.
>2. Not all German shipyards did (or could) build submarines using
>traditional methods. Failing mass-production in the style of the Type
>XXI and XXIII boats, I doubt that sufficient capacity existed to build
>500 boats.
>3. Can the Nazi rearmament programme provide sufficient resources
>(steel, copper, diesel engines, batteries) to build 500 U-boats without
>a massive reduction somewhere else ? I rather doubt that it could. Where
>-ever the changes fall, they will have some effect.
>4. There seems to be an underlying assumption that, while the Germans
>built hundreds of submarines, their potential enemies would blithely
>ignore this and pursue historical programmes of building battleships,
>cruisers and all, as opposed to destroyers, sloops and assorted other
>escort vessels. This stretches my credulity.

Make it 100. The allies were in fact only able to sink them at about
the production rate. This would make them four times as effective for
the duration of the war.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:08:01 PDT 1996
Article: 10735 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Submarines
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:55:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>>So someone’s a nazi if they ask a historically isgnificant question about
>>the Germans in WWII huh *doh*

>Not at all. Someone *is* a nazi if they spend a lot of time and energy on
>USENET trying to put out a bunch of lies about the Holocaust never
>happening.

>Put ‘Matt Giwer’ as a query into a USENET archive (Alta Vista has one) and
>look at what comes out.

Are you referring to the malicious slander of those who insist everyone
believe exactly as they believe?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 10736 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:57:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>Matt Giwer has increasingly shown himself to be a Holocaust revisionist,
>inflitrating soc.history.what-if under false colors, as was initially
>reported by diligent researchers on this list. Such activity is
>forbidden by our charter–what are the moderators going to do about it?
>Is there a mechanism for simply refusing to post his submissions when
>they include Revisionist propaganda, while leaving him free to contribute
>misinformation on other topics? That would seem to leave his both speech
>rights and our charter intact. Comments?

If you are indeed correct, then in fact revisionism is completely on
topic. Or can in not be discussed in any context?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:08:03 PDT 1996
Article: 10738 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: lets revise back to what happened.
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:41:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Abbott) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Goodman) wrote:

>>>Seems to me that in _this_ newsgroup, the way to deal with revisionists
>>>is: Demand that they write about the alternate world in which the
>>>Holocaust _did_ occur, and specifically about how it would have to be
>>>different from ours.

>> Agenda, no response.

>Agreed. You have shown your agenda in other posts (the Nazis didn’t do
>anything antisemitic before the Nuremberg Laws, the evidence for gassings
>of Jews all comes from the USSR, etc) and you have refused to make a
>response to this request.

Bot of those things are true. I would certainly be interested in
reading anything but rhetoric prior to 1 April 1933.

And as you know all of the extermination camps were in territories
liberated by the Russians and the other allies did not have access to
them, who else would the information have come from?

Simon Wiesenthal has written several times that there were no
extermination camps in Germany. I don’t see what the problem is with
what I have said.

>You have complained about other people being off-topic when they point
>out your Holocaust-denying proclivities. But here is a request relating
>_specifically_ to alternate history and you decline to respond to it.
>I’d say that speaks volumes.

>Or are you tacitly admitting that the Holocaust did, in fact, occur, and
>that discussion of it is therefore _not_ in general alternate history?

It not having occurred, according to you, fits alternate history.

So lets continue but lets also start from the base of what did in fact
happen.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:08:05 PDT 1996
Article: 10743 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, holocaust revisionist
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:00:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
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Fred Smoler wrote:

>Giwer is demonstrably a holocaust revisionist infiltrating this list, and
>as such his some of postings violate our charter. Can the moderators
>refuse to post his revisionist propaganda, while leaving him free to post
>misinformation on other topics? That would leave his speech rights and
>our charter both intact. Comments?

Is there a problem with considering revisionism an alternate history?
At least there appear to be enough people here that know history to be
able to separate revisionism from what really happened. Not so?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 10744 of soc.history.what-if
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Giwer – Holocaust revisionist
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:01:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Chris Williams) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]

>> So what is your point in all of this?

>Letting people know you for the piece of human s**t you are.

You mean to say that people here are so stupid that they can not make up
their own minds and need you to help them?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:12 PDT 1996
Article: 44290 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An interesting point
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:22:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>I would think that if simply getting rid of rotting bodies from a
>>>typhus epidemic was the purpose,
>>
>>Do not forget all the rest of the diseases.
>>
>>then a common incinerator would _still_
>>>be cheaper to build and operate, and faster. But perhaps that is just
>>>because I am (as Mr. Giwer repeatedly asserts) ignorant of science,
>>
>> As you are.
>>
>>and
>>>Mr. Giwer will now provide us with a scientific explanation for this
>>>amazing effect of intentions on physics.
>>
>>> Until that happens, I will assume that someone simply failed to break
>>>out of the pattern of conventional thinking about how bodies are burned.
>>>After all, I cannot believe that the people running the camps were all 163
>>>IQ type rocket scientists. If they were, they would have been at
>>>Peenemunde.
>>
>> Try to imagine this. These people are being “gassed” and cremated in
>>full view of anyone who happens to be nearby. Everyone knows what is
>>going on. There are stories of the kremas being unusable at time and
>>then finding it necessary to resort to open pit BBQing.

>>
>> And no one thinks, “We have these incinerators …”
>>
>>>>But instead they use a design that preserves the human ashes separate
>>>>from the fuel ashes.

> I have read that even Thies Christopherson, who denies mass
>exterminations, acknowledges that he saw some open-air burning carried
>out. And that would of course mix the ashes of the bodies with the ashes
>of the fuel. I will attempt to verify this.

Which does not explain crematoria in the first place.

>>>>How strange for people with such intentions.
>>
>>> How strange for people with intentions of dealing with massive corpse
>>>disposal problems for _any_ reason, legitimate or not. Even if you assume
>>>that they needed to have some regular cremation ability so that they could
>>>return the ashes of the ordinary prisoners to the families (they did for a
>>>fee, or at least pretended to, according to Pressac),
>>
>> Which of course explains why they used the proper crematoria.

> They were prisoners and dangerous enemies of the Reich. If they had
>just grabbed a bunch of ashes from the incinerator, were the families
>going to send them out for forensic testing? Still inefficient.

If they were going to do that, they did not need crematoria.

>>this would not apply
>>>to the Jews. All money had already been taken from the Jews
>>
>> Excuse me … where is it written that Jews were treated differently
>>in this matter? No place? Thank you.

> Their money was taken. Unlike the political prisoners, no families
>were left behind to buy the ashes back. They were going to a lot of
>expense for no return. You’re welcome.

WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN? If you want to make it up, fine. But you are
the first making this claim.

Also we find the prelude to many of the delousing, excuse me, gassing
stories is that they are surrendering their valuables. It is not clear
how both claims are true at the same time.

>>Of course those who view it as a
>>Jews only affair (all the holohuggers) certainly would give that
>>impression.
>>
>>and they were
>>>not saving the ashes in separate urns pending the end of the war.
>>>Therefore it would have been more rational to build a smaller number of
>>>ovens plus an incinerator regardless of whether the intentions were
>>>sinister or innocent.
>>
>> But of course there are zero reports of the use of any of the
>>existing incinerators

> Gee, I have seen zero reports of existing incinerators large enough to
>burn bodies. By your “what I have not seen reported does not exist” rule,
>there were none.

Would you care to post a few of them? You will make a signficant
contribution to the conference as no one else has posted such a report.

>>no matter how great the need for added capacity.

>>
>>>>Looks like we are back to dealing with those stupid Germans again.
>>
>>> That does indeed seem to be the correct conclusion. Also a stupid 163
>>>IQ type for not realizing this.
>>
>> Of course there is another explanation. Respect for the dead.

> Holy cheeze whiz, due to respect of the dead, they risked the health
>of the camp leaving unburnt bodies around during the typhus epidemic
>rather than use the incinerators. Maybe they wanted to have even more
>dead around to respect?

Which is precisely the point, is it not? Were there no respect for the
dead they would have started using the camp incinerators. But only you
have red reports of that.

>>No mass exterminations. Simply a properly run camp doing exactly what
>>the Nazis said it was to do.

> Excuse me, do prisons toss executed serial rape-murderers into
>incinerators? Let us assume you are correct as to the motive. Where is
>it written that one cannot have respect for the dead of the people one
>executes? Where is it written that Jews were treated differently in this
>matter? No place? Thank you.

Excuse me, but certainly you have read the many claims that their ashes
were used as fertlizer, on icy sidewalks and the like. That is where it
is written. Wait for another round of Keren’s mindless quotes and
refresh your memory. So, if you believe those eyewitnesses (and on what
grounds would you not?) then there was no such respect.

> You are arguing that they might realistically have respect for the
>dead to salvage your theory about the non-use of incinerators even during
>a health crisis. Yet you are using the groundless assumption that people
>carrying out mass extermination of a perceived enemy probabably would not
>have respect for those dead in order to be able to claim the non-use of
>incinerators as evidence for your argument. What was that about
>contradictory true truths?

But as above, we know there was no respect. Even dumping the ashes in a
river can hardly be considered respect.

> You must be a trollohugger.

You avoided the obvious point, that the camps were just what the Nazis
said they were by selectively ignoring how the ashes were “really”
treated.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:13 PDT 1996
Article: 44298 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nazi Massacre Of the Insane, III
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:28:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to SS-Oberfuehrer Brack,
>19 December 1940
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 856]
>—————————————————————–
>Dear Brack,

>I hear there is great excitement on the Alb because of the Grafeneck
>Institution.
>The population recognizes the gray automobiles of the SS and think they
>know what is going on at the constantly smoking crematory. What happens
>there is a secret and yet is no longer one. Thus the worst feeling has
>arisen there, and in my opinion there remains only one thing, to
>discontinue the use of the institution in this place and in any event
>disseminate information in a clever and sensible manner by showing motion
>pictures on the subject of inherited and mental diseases in just that
>locality.

>May I ask for a report as to how the difficult problem is solved?

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:14 PDT 1996
Article: 44299 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nazi Massacre Of the Insane, II
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:27:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Dr. Wurm, of the Wuerttemberg Evangelical Provincial Church,
>to Reich Minister of interior Dr. Frick, September 5 1940
>[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression – Washington, U.S Govt. Print.
>Off., 1946, Supp. A, p. 1223]
>———————————————————————–
>Dear Reich Minister,

>On July 19th I sent you a letter about the systematic extermination
>of lunatics, feeble-minded and epileptic persons. Since then this
>practice has reached tremendous proportions: recently the inmates of
>old-age homes have also been included. The basis for this practice
>seems to be that in an efficient nation there should be no room
>for weak and frail people. It is evident from the many reports which
>we are receiving that the people’s feelings are being badly hurt
>by the measures ordered and that the feeling of legal insecurity
>is spreading which is regrettable from the point of view of national
>and state interest.

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:14 PDT 1996
Article: 44300 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another kind of gassing
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:18:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer plagiarized from Carlos Porter:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>> The least you could do, Mr. Giwer, is give your source, which appears
>>>to be:
>>
>>> http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/gcgv/dachau2.html
>>
>>>I never expected you would do any research which could not be conducted on
>>>the Web.
>>
>> I have yet to see a holohugger here post from other than derivative
>>sources so I am quite up to the holohugger standard.

> Not so. Proper attribution to the original author is given, and Mr.
>Giwer has not met that standard. But perhaps scientists think nothing of
>palming off the work of others as their own. I have heard rumors of
>papers where the grad students do all or nearly all the work and the
>professor shows up at publication time to claim a chunk of the glory.
>Maybe that is where Mr. Giwer learned his literary ethics.

So you are saying that the IMT is a derivative source? In what manner?

If you have been reading the cancer infection document that I posted
here has been found in its entirety on Nizkor as I said it was. And of
course I quoted it in the same manner they did.

What problem is it that you think you are finding?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44301 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Web
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:37:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4q3bn2$kf[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Andy Walton) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

> :Bingo! Exactly what I said. You don’t even have a T1 line. Am I right
> :or am I right!?!
> :
> :You have a primitive piece of shit computer over a phone line exactly as
> :I said. My son set that up for himself in half an hour just for
> :conveniece at home. So who gave you the fixed IP address and at what
> :price?

>Unfortunately, you’ve punctured one of the central tenets of the
>WPRangers’ objections to Ken’s site — the assumption that his site must
>be funded by the Great Jew Conspiracy ™.

>He’s got a 486DX25 on a dedicated 28.8 line. Assuming that ‘net access is
>as plentiful in the frigid hinterlands as it is here in Georgia, and that
>his 486 is a home-build, Ken’s total cost — setup plus one year’s
>operating expenses — runs about US$2,000. And that’s a generous estimate.

>In other words, Ken must be accepting money from the Elders of Zion (r),
>because he spends a bit more than I do on our respective hobbies.

Actually that is why I asked about the price for a fixed IP. I know of
few places offering it and usually only in connection with a dedicated
phone line. Those are cheaper than a T1 line but a long way from the
usual $20 per month el cheapo basic rate.

On the other hand, were it hosted on an ISP this set up could be had for
about $120US a month, counting the megabytes. There are six or seven
listed contributors, divide.

> :>>I’ve tried many of the URLs Ken has posted recently, and they’ve worked
> :>>for me; I keep odd hours, though. Try again during less busy hours.
> :
> :>Well, as noted, hundreds of people do get their files, but
> :>then perhaps teeny-bopper has a problem with timing… I guess
> :>he’ll just have to get used to always being at the end of the
> :>line, at least until late summer.
> :
> : Webcom or Combase can do better for you in an instant.

>Doubt it. If he’s serving 700+ pages/day over a 28.8 POTS line, he’s
>getting pretty close to optimal perfomance. He could use better bandwidth;
>I don’t know about ISDN availability in British Columbia, but it varies
>widely within the U.S.

ISDN providers will not be dropping the per minute cost in the US until
around the end of the year. It appears to depend upon cable company
competition in offering phone lines.

As to optimal performance, ONLY if the hits are averaged.

Of course the good news is that from the US one can get better service
>from the mirror site in Germany.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An interesting point
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:08:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:09:52 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>Even though the Kremas were supposed to be to get rid of the evidence,
>>they were built in the same manner as all crematoria at the time. It
>>sort of indicates that they did not know what they were doing.
>>
>>If getting rid of the evidence was the purpose then a common incinerator
>>would be cheaper to build and operate, and faster.

> Here’s a REALLY interesting point: if Mr. Giwer is offering an
>honest argument via the above, then he must believe the purpose in
>burning a body changes both its physical burning characteristics and
>construction costs for the disposal equipment.

Not the body, the efficiency of the burning process. In an incinerator
you can dump a body right onto the fire. In the crematoria used the
burning is done by circulated hot air only.

> I would think that if simply getting rid of rotting bodies from a
>typhus epidemic was the purpose,

Do not forget all the rest of the diseases.

then a common incinerator would _still_
>be cheaper to build and operate, and faster. But perhaps that is just
>because I am (as Mr. Giwer repeatedly asserts) ignorant of science,

As you are.

and
>Mr. Giwer will now provide us with a scientific explanation for this
>amazing effect of intentions on physics.

> Until that happens, I will assume that someone simply failed to break
>out of the pattern of conventional thinking about how bodies are burned.
>After all, I cannot believe that the people running the camps were all 163
>IQ type rocket scientists. If they were, they would have been at
>Peenemunde.

Try to imagine this. These people are being “gassed” and cremated in
full view of anyone who happens to be nearby. Everyone knows what is
going on. There are stories of the kremas being unusable at time and
then finding it necessary to resort to open pit BBQing.

And no one thinks, “We have these incinerators …”

>>But instead they use a design that preserves the human ashes separate
>>from the fuel ashes.
>>
>>How strange for people with such intentions.

> How strange for people with intentions of dealing with massive corpse
>disposal problems for _any_ reason, legitimate or not. Even if you assume
>that they needed to have some regular cremation ability so that they could
>return the ashes of the ordinary prisoners to the families (they did for a
>fee, or at least pretended to, according to Pressac),

Which of course explains why they used the proper crematoria.

this would not apply
>to the Jews. All money had already been taken from the Jews

Excuse me … where is it written that Jews were treated differently in
this matter? No place? Thank you. Of course those who view it as a
Jews only affair (all the holohuggers) certainly would give that
impression.

and they were
>not saving the ashes in separate urns pending the end of the war.
>Therefore it would have been more rational to build a smaller number of
>ovens plus an incinerator regardless of whether the intentions were
>sinister or innocent.

But of course there are zero reports of the use of any of the existing
incinerators no matter how great the need for added capacity.

>>Looks like we are back to dealing with those stupid Germans again.

> That does indeed seem to be the correct conclusion. Also a stupid 163
>IQ type for not realizing this.

Of course there is another explanation. Respect for the dead. No mass
exterminations. Simply a properly run camp doing exactly what the Nazis
said it was to do.

> Hmn. Did he finally master his spell checker, or was this just a
>monkeys-at-the-typewriter kind of thing?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Trolling again, but with an interesting idea
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:09:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 12:10:56 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, wrote:
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
>>>P. Stein) said:
>>
>>>>>>> You really should contact the SWC and get an answer before you
>>>>>>>continue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you contact them before you claimed that they were trying to say
>>>>>>the Wannsee Document was evidence for _gassing_?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should I? I made no such claim. But you know that.
>>
>>>> If you wish to play trollish word games, you are correct. On the
>>>>strict definition of the words, you insinuated it; the direct claim was
>>>>that the SWC deliberately misrepresented. Of course you have been
>>>>deceptive and deliberately so. And of course you have not met the burden
>>>>of proof for your claim about deliberate misrepresentation. Sorry about
>>>>that.
>>
>>>It’s more than word games, Mike. Giwer, the pathological liar, does say in
>>>a post that anyone who cannot see the connection between Wannsee and gassing
>>>is a liar. So he certainly imputes a connection, which everyone but him
>>>knows is untrue.
>>
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: another kind of gassing
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:35:03 GMT
>>
>>: “There was no gas chamber in the camp in working order (!). A gas
>>chamber was being
>>built in the crematorium and in January 1945, work was going on at a
>>high speed. The chamber
>>was soon completed except for the gas boiler (?). A railway worker who
>>had to go in and out of
>>the camp told me that a boiler had arrived at the Ostbanhof, Munich,
>>from Auschwitz. But this
>>boiler, together with many gas cylinders had been destroyed in an air
>>raid.

> Great. Now, perhaps you’d like to explain who has claimed this was
>spelled out in the Wannsee document?

As you remember, I publically asked for documentation of gassing.

As you remember, Keren played a game of posting it in German for a
couple weeks.

As you remember, I found it in English and posted it.

As you remember, Keren immediatedly claimed I had added words to it.

As you remember, Keren was wrong, saying he just didn’t want the Nazis
to look good.

Now that your memory has been refreshed on all of that, it was Keren who
responded to my request for documentation of gassing with the Wannsee
Protocol who said that. Or else why was that his response?

It talked about mass death but the
>technical means other than overwork was not spelled out. It did, however,
>say something about practical experience being gathered at that time.
>Perhaps you would like to address that point and, given the documentary
>record (heck, you may even use testimony if you like) give us your most
>honest hypothesis as to what that rather cryptic comment meant.

The document also refers to sterilization. The problem they state is
the resurgence of the Jewish race implying it would be stronger by
natural selection. Does it register on you that sterilization would
accomplish that?

It is all right in the document.

> And of course there is still the issue of what statistical argument
>you are trying to convey, which I asked about in the post to which Gordon
>McFee responded (the “grandfather,” so to speak, of your post). Perhaps
>you would like to address that? Or have you decided you weren’t advancing
>a serious point at all, but were just trying to cover up your embarrassing
>misreading?

Perhaps you would like to be more explicit? It is not clear what you
are talking about from this description.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 44306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:16:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:17:44 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>You have never heard of Simon Wiesenthal? Why not try
>>www.wiesenthal.com and see who he is? He is a great nazi hunter who
>>also appears to be a master of subborning perjury.

>I’ve heard of Simon Wiesenthal. Didn’t that marvelous actor, F. Murray
>Abraham, portray him in a movie based on his life (which, by Hollywood
>standards, means that you can’t tell truth from fiction)?

>The truth of the matter is, the only person who knows for a fact if
>anyone is telling the truth is the person making the statements. IOW,
>only Simon Wiesenthal knows if he is telling the truth or not. Whether
>or not you choose to believe him (or anyone else) is something else
>entirely different.

You really do need to do something about the reliability of memory. I
have posted a couple of items here. There is a third I have to find
again related to WW II to add to my collection. After an air raid
people were asked to describe what happened. Years later they were
found and asked to describe what happened. Any similarity between the
two descriptions was purely coincidental.

On the other hand when he rouses 40 people to testify under oath against
a person who was never involved in anything accused of, the only other
possible explanation is that he is in severe need of a long rest in a
place where all of his needs will be cared for.

The man is a threat to anyone from Germany and old enough to have been
involved.

>Your belief of Wiesenthal doesn’t make his claims true, any more than
>your disbelief of Chuck makes his claims false.

Excuse me, but if you accept what he has claimed will you please explain
what he refuses to explain?

The most glaring claim is that he was both a fighter pilot and a camp
liberator. How are both of those claims true at the same time? Did he
destroy a camp in order to save it?

Can you explain this?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:18 PDT 1996
Article: 44307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:33:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 11:34:29 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>> What did I miss?
>>
>> Or are you insisting I have a source of authority? Try Grey’s Anatomy.
>> I am certain you can find a copy of that.

> Out of curiousity I checked with an expert. He is considered the
>world’s leading expert on bone disease, is the founder of the International
>Skeletal Society, and author of the standard reference work on diagnosis of
>bone disease. Currently he on staff at the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in
>Houston as the resident expert on bone disease. He informed me that the
>bones of the cranium are among the most fragile in a human being. The most
>solid bones are the weight bearing bones of the pelvis, femur and vertabrae.

> Your reference for the cranium being the most likely to survive
>cremation is?

As I said, the most commonly remaining after burning which has nothing
to do with fragility. Fragility refers to impact damage.

In the skull that comes from the separate bone plates fusing between
puberty and age 20 or so. The fused areas are not as strong as at the
bones themselves.

But then, you failed to ask the right question and then you go on to
present it as a refutation of what I said. Now go find yourself a
forensic type and ask him about fires and which bones are most likely
left after a serious BBQ.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JPEG Files Of Dr. Rascher’s Letter To Himmler
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:29:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:30:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I have scanned the two pages of this letter, in which Rascher
>suggests to use the Dachau gas chamber to test combat gases
>on humans. Those interested can check

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/Rascher1.jpg
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/Rascher2.jpg

>I would appreciate comments about the accessibility of the files,
>speed of transfer, etc.

>The copy was sent to me courtesy of the Institute for Contemporary
>History in Munich.

>-Danny Keren.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JPEG Files Of Dr. Rascher’s Letter To Himmler
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:29:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:31:16 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I have scanned the two pages of this letter, in which Rascher
>suggests to use the Dachau gas chamber to test combat gases
>on humans. Those interested can check

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/Rascher1.jpg
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/Rascher2.jpg

>I would appreciate comments about the accessibility of the files,
>speed of transfer, etc.

Beyond that, it is the worst on the net as everyone knows.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Insulin Hoax (was Re: Fritsch was a fraud)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:31:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:33:19 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:17:42 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote [well, actually he didn’t write much of anything]:

>In 1921, Frederick Banting and Charles Best co-discovered the
>pancreatic hormone insulin, used in treating diabetes.

>Frederick Banting and J.R. Macleod were the first in Canada to win the

>Nobel Prize in 1923 for their work in the isolation of insulin, a
>discovery that revolutionized the treatment of diabetes.

>Both of these statements are true, and yet they are in apparent
>contradiction.

>Can Mr. Giwer guess why? Probably not. But if he could, could he
>construct an analogy to Macleod, Banting, and Best using the names of,
>say, Hoess, Fritsch, and Breitwieser? Probably not.

Off topic. The difference goes far beyond name alone.

And then of course there is the third true story. I am certain there
are more true stories to be found.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:21 PDT 1996
Article: 44313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censorship and Nizkor, Giwer: a global response
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:11:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:12:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

> I’ve just spend few days in New York and with 22 emails in my box,
> I think it’s preferable for me to respond to J.Morris, M.P.Stein and
> J. McCarthy about the ‘Giwer issue’ in a single message.

> First, in ‘a real fake barber shop’, the reference to censorship from
>Jamie McCarthy and Morris against Matt Giwer was a small sentence
>in the whole message. I’ve already explain how it happened: I’m not checking
>all the messages here, and I wasn’t there apparently when M. Giwer posted 13(?)
>times the wannsee minutes. I remembered to have catch randomly a message of
>J. Morris where he gave a public duplicata of his complain to Matt Giwer’s
>provider and where he said that students in Alberta couldn’t access the
>newsserver and alt.revisionism because the system was overload. Since Matt
>Giwer is posting a lot of messages here, I assumed that they were refering
>to his normal output, and J. Morris told me a couple of days ago that his
>letter asked to not expell Matt Giwer but to give him a warning about the
>Wansee minute. I don’t know if the private part was identical, but since I’ve
>no proof of the contrary I will assume that it was. Now I’ve receive several
>email from M.P. Stein where he talks about mail bombing and other things.
>I’m not aware if Matt Giwer did mail bombing and if so, if he did it in
>retaliation to mail bombing directed against him. We are now entering into
>details where I can hardly judge and this is why I prefer to not continue
>on that. I’ve read quickly something from J.Morris a couple of weeks ago,
>Matt Giwer who was complaining about that and I figure he’s the guy who
>is more able to talk for himself.

Speaking of which and needless to say you are being mislead.

At this point the holohuggers would certainly like to divert all
discussion to the matter but I would prefer not to. I will recount to
you by email if you wish.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44314 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:49:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:50:34 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:51:41 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>>Which true truth is Mr. Giwer peddling today?
>>
>> You, too, are confusing the Degesh pub with the public health document
>>from Prague. As we know, the SS did not buy from Prague.

>Okay, enough is enough. Whoever is forging these posts from Mr. Giwer
>just stop it right now. Mr. Giwer knows perfectly well that the Health
>Institution of the Reich-Protektorat was part of the Nazi colonial
>government in Czechoslovakia and headquartered in Prague. Mr. Giwer
>knows perfectly well that they would have been the agency to advise
>the SS on the safe use of Zyklon-B and that they obtained their
>information from Degesch.

>Mr. Giwer can make himself look stupid enough without any help from
>some stinking marduk-troll. So quit it.

>–
> John Morris
> at University of Alberta
>————————————————————————
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
> File archives – ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Web page – http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:51:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:52:43 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Alexander Baron wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “Michael P. Stein” writes:
>>> >> Mr. Giwer is trading on the unstated idea that anyplace with a gas
>>> >>chamber is, automatically, an “extermination camp.” […]

>>> > Then complain to Wiesenthal not me.
>>> >
>>> > He is the one lying in this case.
>>
>>Shame on you Mr Stein, you have read my documentation of the lies of
>>Organised Jewry about the Dachau “gas chamber”.

> I am not sure what you are criticizing me for. The person who wrote
>the last two quoted lines was Matt Giwer, not me. And the initial
>discussion is of Buchenwald, not Dachau.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44316 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:53:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:55:05 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] writes:

>>
>> >> But if you really believe there were people type gas chambers in
>> >>Germany, take it up with Simon Wiesenthal. He shares my opinion on the
>> >>matter.

>> Since you missed it the first time around, here it is again, just for
>> you. Note the source.
>>
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: No gas chamber in Germany
>> From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:47:37 GMT
>>
>> If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
>> know he lies a lot.
>>
>> 4/19/82:
>> WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>> Buchenwald for the Duluth
>> News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
>> gas chambers, which
>> were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
>> Germany, and as we
>> all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
>> Wiesenthal, Books
>> and Bookmen, April, 1975).

> Sorry. Your quote doesn’t cut it. SW said “extermination camps” you
>have, dishonestly and deceitfully (your standard approach) changed that in your own
>posts to “gas chambers.”

> The real question is: why do you post something that reveals you as a
>deliberate liar?

As you know extermination was carried out by four methods, steaming,
electrocution, gassing and vacuuming. As there were no extermination
camps there were none of these four methods of extermination.

What is it you do not understand?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 11:20:24 PDT 1996
Article: 44317 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:15:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:16:31 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Giwer apparently “forgets” that hundreds of tons of food were
>found near Belsen, and that none of the SS-men and the German
>soldiers were starving.

You have not demonstrated that in the least. Finding it and getting it
to Belsen are two different things. You have a huge chain of evidence
to provide before this means anything.

>I refer again to the photo of the SS-women burying the skeletal
>corpses in the camp. Without exception, these women are quite fat.

You have posted nothing whatsoever to verify the picture is what you
claim it is.

>One more thing: if Giwer trusts Kramer to be a reliable witness,
>I’m sure he’ll accept his testimony about the gassing in Birkenau
>and Natzweiler.

You folks trust people who are but names on papers that are not even
signed. I fail to see your problems.

I am up to the standards of the holohuggers.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 14:42:10 PDT 1996
Article: 44321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohugger needed
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:30:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 12:32:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Nele Abels wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Would one of you holohuggers explain to Erik Marksberry that there were
>> not 5.2M bodies found and that no one expects to find 5.2M bodies?

>Would one of you “revisionists” explain to me why this question should be
>of any relevance?

Holohuggers have different ideas of what constitutes their holocausts.
But they are more than willing to start in with the name calling even
only things they have flatly wrong.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 14:42:11 PDT 1996
Article: 44323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Guns and Liberty
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:04:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 1:06:14 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44323 ab.general:10373 can.general:80440 van.general:9085

[email protected] (Jeremy Bee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>[email protected] (Dave Anderson) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Scott Marsden) wrote:
>>
>>>>Truth be told, a person is safer from being shot with a gun in rural
>>>>America than they are in urban Canada. If gun laws make all the
>>>>difference, why is this so?
>>
>>>Simple, gun laws only affect the sane and law abiding and have no
>>>effect on those who would misuse having a gun. In otherwords the law
>>>is not the panacea it was supposed to be and has little effect on
>>>crime besides making it safer for the criminal.
>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>The following press release was issued May 2, 1995:
>>
>>
>> Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
>> America’s Aggressive Civil Rights Organization
>> Tax Exempt under IRS Code Section 501 (c) (3)
>>
>Reams and reams of bullshit deleted….

>>
>>
>> “The ADL just doesn’t get it,” says Zelman. “They don’t see
>>that the biggest murderer of Jews has not been underground hate
>>groups — such as the KKK, the Weathermen, etc. — but
>>governments gone bad. By contrast, almost all militia members
>>love the Rule of Law.”^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>Where do you idiots come from? This whole post is misinformed extreemist
>crap. To point out only one of the most obviously wrong and stupid
>statements, see above highlighted text.

>Do you think by simply steing the opposite of the truth you will make it true?
>The fact is most if not all of the “militia” groups not only DONT “love the
>rule of law” the openly flaunt it, in fact it is one of their big reasons for
>existing. Their whole basis of operation is a type of armed anarchy that
>fights against civilised “law”. They support only the laws that they like and
>the fewest possible laws. They are for the most part actively involved in
>screwing the government etc., etc… To even suggest that these nutcases are
>”law-abiding” types that are less dangerous than an elected democratic
>government is just stupid.

>As a matter of fact, this whole thread sounds like a lot of ex-patriot
>americans patting themselves on the back or maybe American wannabees?

You appear to have swallowed the line of that fanatic, Morris Dees.
After all, he is afraid of the Dogtown Rangers.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 15:48:37 PDT 1996
Article: 44332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:02:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pctrb$23 <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:03:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>[deleted]

>>” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>>entrances to the four-story
>>house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased, the
>>same people were
>>forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>>had to be transferred to one
>>place in the courtyard. ”
>>IMT VII – p.491.

>I obviously have bested the Giwer-troll again, as he is reduced to this
>pathetic and childish display. God it must be awful to be so pathetic.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 16:19:30 PDT 1996
Article: 44334 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: dem bones again
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:54:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 8:56:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>> So back to Treblinka. There we have a 45 foot cube. Thus we have
>> enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
>> bone fragments. But of course they were buried so at some point coring
>> would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.
>>
>> But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
>> fragments. So let me address that for our applied mathematician. The
>> false assumption is that 27 feet means anything. He assumes that 27
>> feet means distributed over the 27 foot core. The fallacy of that
>> assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.
>>
>> If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
>> these bone fragments.
>>
>> For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
>> It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.

>For those of you who might not have actually been present during activities
>that involved boring into the ground to examine the subsurface, Mr Giwer
>once again has slid his mouth into gear without engaging the transmission
>in his brain.

Which of course changes nothing that I have said. Or is the math beyond
you?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT

1/17/85
Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a cross-examination
that took place the
day before, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust “expert” and author
Raul Hilberg admitted
under oath that after 36 years of studying the Holocaust, 1) he
knew of no documentary
(printed) evidence that the Nazis murdered or planned to murder
Jews in gas chambers, 2)
he had identified large parts of the key “confession” of Kurt
Gerstein as to the “gassings”
as “pure nonsense” and “totally false,” 3) when presenting the
Gerstein “confession” as
proof of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in
order to make his point,
4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 5) he
billed himself as a
Holocaust expert for 18 years before even visiting Auschwitz (he
then spent only one day
there), 6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of
which he was alleged to be
the expert, and 7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew
had been gassed. (see
also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the Globe and
Mail, and the Sault Star of
1/18/85.) Understandably, when called upon to testify again in a
later trial, Hilberg begged
off.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 17:18:21 PDT 1996
Article: 44339 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little more background
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:07:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:08:38 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>HERMANN GÖRING

>Hermann Goering was convicted under all four counts of the Nuremberg
>indictment, including crimes against humanity. It was he who issued the
>Final Solution order to Heydrich in 1941.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 17:18:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44340 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How to get a desired confession
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:52:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 320
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 2:54:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

And holohuggers could produce only personal attacks when I talked about
1940s interrogation methods.

When It’s Confession Time at Dachau,
or, I Saw the Light While I Was Seeing Stars

By Carlos Porter

In war crimes trials, confessions are usually typewritten by the
interrogator, often entirely in English. Paragraphs in the prisoner’s
handwriting have usually been dictated by the interrogator.The First
Dachau Trial (Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss and Thirty Nine Others),
offers an insight into the manner in which these confessions were
obtained.

(TESTIMONY OF KICK, microfilm pages 000145-9).

Q: Are either of these two statements 96 or 97 in your handwriting?

A: The post-script on page 4 of 96 is in my handwriting.

Q: The rest of it is written in what manner?

A: The other part of it is typed.

Q: Did you dictate the typing?

A: No.

Q: Who did?

A: The interrogating officer.

Q: Who was the interrogating officer?

A: Lt. Guth.

Q: Is the language contained in either of those statements your language
or the language of Lt. Guth?

A: Those are the expressions of Lt. Guth.

Q: And at the end of your statements you signed them, and swore to them
as being the truth, did you not?

A: Yes.

Q: … will you describe to the court the treatment that you received
prior to your first interrogation anyplace?

(Prosecution objection as to whether beating received on the 6th of May
could be relevant to confession signed on the 5th of November).

Q: … Kick, did the treatment you received immediately following your
arrest have any influence whatever on the statements that you made on
the 5th of November?

A: … The treatment at that time influenced this testimony to that
extent, that I did not dare to refuse to sign, in spite of the fact that
it did not contain the testimony which I gave.

Q: Now, Kick, for the court, will you describe the treatment which you
received immediately following your arrest?

A: I ask to refuse to answer this question here in public.

President: The court desires to have the defendant answer the question.

A: I was here in Dachau from the 6th to the 15th of May, under arrest;
during this time I was beaten all during the day and night… kicked…
I had to stand to attention for hours; I had to kneel down on sharp
objects or square objects; I had to stand under the lamp for hours and
look into the light, at which time I was also beaten and kicked; as a
result of this treatment my arm was paralysed for about 8 to 10 weeks;
only beginning with my transfer to Augsberg, this treatment stopped.

Q: What were you beaten with?

A: With all kinds of objects.

Q: Describe them, please.

A: With whips, with lashing whips, with rifle butts, pistol butts, and
pistol barrels, and with hands and fists.

Q: And that continued daily over a period of what time?

A: From the morning of the 7th of May until the morning of the 15th of
May.

Q: Kick, why did you hesitate to give that testimony?

A: If the court hadn’t decided I should talk about it, I wouldn’t have
said anything about it today.

Q: Would you describe the people who administered these beatings to you?

A: I can only say that they were persons who were wearing the United
States uniform and I can’t describe them any better.

Q: And as a result of those beatings when Lt. Guth called you in, what
was your frame of mind?

A: I had to presume that if I were to refuse to sign I would be
subjected to a similar treatment.

(TESTIMONY OF KRAMER, microfilm pages 000298-9).

Q: Kramer, were you interrogated after your arrest anywhere except
Dachau?

A: Yes, in Fuerstenfeldbruck.

Q: Did that interrogation have any effect on the statement that you made
here?

Prosecution: I object to that question as being immaterial and
irrelevant.

President: Explain exactly what happened.

Q: Will you explain exactly what happened at that interrogation? A: I do
not want to talk about it.

Q: The court desires you to explain what happened.

A: I was beaten by an interrogation officer. Several prisoners were also
present. I was supposed to tell how many people I shot or hanged. I can
say with a conscience that I never killed a person. Thereupon, I was
beaten over the head with sticks and rubber hoses until I broke down.

Q: Anything else to say about that?

A: No …

(TESTIMONY OF DR. WITTELER, microfilm pages 000327-331).

A: During my interrogation I had to sit in front of the desk of Lt.
Guth. A spotlight was turned on me which stood on the desk. Lt. Guth
stood behind the spotlight and the interrogation started. “We
know you, we have the necessary records about you…” I started to make
an explanation. I was immediately stopped. I was yelled at. He called me
a swine, criminal, liar, murderer, and that is the way the interrogation
continued. I couldn’t give any explanations. I was only told to answer
“yes” or “no”… I was interrupted immediately and told that all I had
to do was answer “yes” and “no”. I couldn’t even explain it. I was told
to shut up and to answer “yes” or “no”… since it was not like he
thought it was, I had to get up and stand. So I stood up until 1:30 in
the morning – seven hours.

Q: … at the conclusion of the drafting of this statement you signed
it?

A: No, I answered that it is not correct… this statement was not
written in my presence. It was written in another room. The reporter was
with me in the room all the time, but the statement was
written in another room. After I couldn’t stand up any more this
statement was put in front of me at 1:30. And then when I said that this
testimony… is not by me, that is the testimony of Dr. Blaha —
who was present for several hours that night… so that I didn’t want to
sign it. Lt. Guth said he would interrogate me until tomorrow morning,
that he had other methods…

(DR. BLAHA WAS A CZECH COMMUNIST WHO CLAIMED THE GERMANS FORCED HIM TO
SKIN PEOPLE AND MAKE SLIPPERS, SADDLES, PURSES, HANDBAGS, GLOVES, AND
TROUSERS OUT OF HUMAN SKIN. HE ALSO WAS THE ONLY WITNESS AT THE DACHAU
TRIAL WHO CLAIMED THERE WAS A GAS CHAMBER AT DACHAU. HIS TESTIMONY WAS
INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS “PROVEN FACT”).

Q: How many people were present at the time you were interrogated?

A: Altogether, three: Lt. Guth, Dr. Leiss, and I, and, for a short time,
Dr. Blaha.

Q: This writing in your own handwriting. Was that dictated or did you
make it up?

A: When I found that the interrogation would end that way, I wrote down
this last part and signed my name to it.

Q: Was it your own words or was it dictated to you?

A: Lt. Guth dictated those words…

Q: Prior to the time that you signed that statement, have you been
served with any papers in this particular case?

A: No, I didn’t know why I was in Dachau. I had no idea I was one of the
accused. After the interrogation at 1:30 I was sent to the colonel and
the colonel then read the charge to me. The first time I heard I was
supposed to be a murderer, was then.

Q: You mean Col. Denson read the charges to you?

A: Yes.

(Col. Denson acted as prosecutor in this trial and delivered the
prosecution summation. Lt. Guth appeared as a witness and denied all
accusations of improper conduct. Guth was a Viennese who came to the
United States in 1941).

(TESTIMONY OF GRETSCH, microfilm pages 000701-3).

Q: Gretsch, is this statement in your handwriting?

A: No, that isn’t my handwriting.

Q: What part of this paper is in your handwriting?

A: This is my handwriting here.

Q: And what is this? What part of the paper is this?

A: That is, “I have made the above statements without compulsion, and I
have read and corrected it and understand it fully. I swear before God
that it is the pure truth”.

Q: That is the oath, is it not?

A: Yes, that is the oath.

Q: And is the oath the only part of this statement that is in your
handwriting?

A: Yes…

Q: … Gretsch, you signed each page… did you not?

A: Yes, I signed it on the bottom, but I didn’t read it. It was in a
hurry…

Q: …Were you told to sign your name to each sheet of paper? A: Yes…

(PROSECUTION REBUTTAL – TESTIMONY OF COL. CHAVEZ, microfilm pages
000712-4).

Q: Kick testified that he was beaten daily from the 7th of May until the
15th of May… did you have occasion to examine Kick?

A: Yes.

Q: … did you have occasion to observe his physical condition?

A: I did.

Q: Did he have any black eyes?

A: He did not.

Q: Did he show any evidence of violence having been used upon him?

A: He did not.

Q: Was any one or both of his arms paralysed?

A: Not that I observed. He was just as natural as he is now. In fact, he
looked better at that time than he does now. I observed nothing. He was
very cooperative, and the record will so indicate. He was sworn and he
gave his testimony in a very gently manner.

Q: Did he at any time state to you, Colonel, that he had been beaten or
in any manner mistreated?

A: He did not.

Q: … how often did you see him?

A: Just during the time that he was interrogated.

Q: … of course he was fully clothed?

A: Yes.

Q: But there is no question about it – at the time you talked with him
he was quite cooperative?

A: He was…

(COL. CHAVEZ WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE “CHAVEZ REPORT”, WHICH WAS TO HAVE
“PROVEN” THAT A GAS CHAMBER EXISTED AT DACHAU. THE REPORT WAS NEVER
INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE, AND THIS ACCUSATION WAS DROPPED BEFORE TRIAL.
COL. CHAVEZ APPEARED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS AT DACHAU ON NOV. 15, 1945,
BUT MADE NO MENTION OF A GAS CHAMBER. THE CHAVEZ REPORT WAS THEN
RE-WRITTEN AND INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS DOCUMENTS
2430 PS AND 159 L, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS KNOWN TO BE UNTRUE).

(TESTIMONY OF LT. LAURENCE, microfilm pages 000714-5).

Q: Did you have occasion to examine Albin Gretsch?

A: Yes, Sir.

Q: … and did he complain of any mis-statements?…

A: Not at all, sir… they are mostly his own words, sir. And I may add,
sir, that I wasn’t in a hurry at all. He took many hours and as he was
rather slow in answering, I gave him all the time he wanted…

Q: The statement, with the exception of the oath, is in your
handwriting, is it not, Lt. Laurence?

A: Yes.

(Of course, while German allegations of mistreatment are always
dismissed as baseless, similar accusations from prosecution witnesses
are accepted as “proven facts”.Among the offenses for which KICK was
hanged was knocking 15 teeth out of the lower jaw of Llewellyn
Edwards of 12, Nora St. Cardiff, Wales, who claimed to have lost 15
upper teeth at some other time[!]):

Q: At the time you went in Kick’s office, how many teeth did you have in
your head?

A: Fifteen, sir. On the bottom, sir. Fifteen of my own, sir. On the top
I had artificial teeth.

(microfilm page 000722).

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 17:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little background material
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:07:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:08:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>>
>>JOACHIM VON RIBBENTROP

>> Von Ribbentrop was hanged for signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which
>>preceeded and made possible the attack on Poland.

>Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged for plotting aggressive war and crimes
>against humanity.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 19:07:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44355 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censorship and Nizkor, Giwer: a global response
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:41:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 1:42:51 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just spend few days in New York and with 22 emails in my box,
>> I think it’s preferable for me to respond to J.Morris, M.P.Stein and
>> J. McCarthy about the ‘Giwer issue’ in a single message.
>>
>> First, in ‘a real fake barber shop’, the reference to censorship from
>>Jamie McCarthy and Morris against Matt Giwer was a small sentence
>>in the whole message. I’ve already explain how it happened: I’m not checking
>>all the messages here, and I wasn’t there apparently when M. Giwer posted 13(?)
>>times the wannsee minutes. I remembered to have catch randomly a message of
>>J. Morris where he gave a public duplicata of his complain to Matt Giwer’s
>>provider and where he said that students in Alberta couldn’t access the
>>newsserver and alt.revisionism because the system was overload. Since Matt
>>Giwer is posting a lot of messages here, I assumed that they were refering
>>to his normal output, and J. Morris told me a couple of days ago that his
>>letter asked to not expell Matt Giwer but to give him a warning about the
>>Wansee minute. I don’t know if the private part was identical, but since I’ve
>>no proof of the contrary I will assume that it was. Now I’ve receive several
>>email from M.P. Stein where he talks about mail bombing and other things.
>>I’m not aware if Matt Giwer did mail bombing and if so, if he did it in
>>retaliation to mail bombing directed against him.

> I have not seen him post such. There was a mention of one impolite
>email to Mr. Giwer’s son from [email protected] And there were some
>very easily spotted forgeries of Giwer articles by Marduk. (Nonetheless,
>a number of people were fooled by the forgeries.) Mr. Giwer apparently
>sent mail to all idirect.com users when the management of idirect.com did
>not respond as he wanted.

Did not respond at all. Lets keep it straight.

> Mr. Giwer emailed the idirect.com users from Combase. Mr. Giwer was
>not mailbombed (according to what he has posted publicly) until he moved
>from Combase to Netcom. Thus unless there was a mailbombing he didn’t
>tell us about, he could not have been retaliating. In any event,
>retaliation would have been hitting Marduk, not the whole site.

The entire site could be justified based upon the actions of the
management. Particularly when the management did tell Combase that the
person doing it had root access and the person continued to post from
idirect.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:34 PDT 1996
Article: 44363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kleinsorg slanders Germans
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:02:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:04:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77482 alt.revisionism:44363 soc.culture.jewish:57508

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>> Anything is my business, camp liberating fighter pilot. What did you do,
>>destroy the camp in order to save it?

>> But when I start soliciting contributions for personal gain he certainly
>>has a right to start asking questions.

>No thread is safe from the Giwer-troll. It must be the stench that
>attracted him.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:35 PDT 1996
Article: 44367 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:05:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]ramp.net> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:07:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:32989 can.politics:52851 talk.politics.misc:393225 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1460 alt.revisionism:44367 alt.censorship:85698 comp.org.eff.talk:66273 can.general:80469

[email protected] (Lary Myles) wrote:

>> Myths like this description of the steaming equipment you mean?

>Hey Matt.

>I’m not sure what side of the holocaust issue that you are on. I gotta figure
>that just by the sheer weight of the evidence that of course it was a hideous
>reality of WWII. No doubt in my mind…

WW II may be described as a hideous reality.

>What is really interesting is how the Jews managed to market this affair
>fifty years later. It’s *still* a good way to hustle a buck..holocaust
>advocacy. Mind you, from vistiing McVay’s site, I gotta figure he’s just
>small spuds in the whole scheme of things.

As has been observed, the USHMM would be no different, with or without
the gassing. It is simply that it would not be there at all without the
gassing.

>I’d like to see some marketing done with the slaughter of the millions of
>Ukranians by Stalin. Now, that was a first class–and low-tech–affair.

1) We do not have a large Ukranian population.

2) They know that remembering it will neither change it nor prevent it
>from happening again.

3) They are not professional victims.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:35 PDT 1996
Article: 44372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:05:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:07:16 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard Schultz) said:

>>
>>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>>: And how did harrassing my family accomplish that?

>>Nobody harassed your family. And even if they had, by your own stated
>>standards of proof, there is no way you can prove it.

>The Giwer-troll harassed his own family by forging mmessages to his son that
>he claimed were sent by Marduk.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:37 PDT 1996
Article: 44373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:05:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:07:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>said:

>>
>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:41:22 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:

>>>> Why the weekly spamming of the same material?

>>>Sniff, sniff, snivel.

>> When I was accused of it, it was sufficient justification to harrass my
>>service provider until I was removed. It is still used as justification
>>for that harrassment. It is also used to justify the harrassment of my
>>family.

>Another Giwer-troll lie. He was booted by his provider because he was an
>obnoxious, harassing asshole. The spamming, which he did by the bucket
>load, was the crowning achievement. But wait! The list of Giwer-lies is
>almost endless. Just a sampling:

>1. That the allies did not refer to themselves as the “United
> Nations”;
>2. That tape recorders were not available during WWII;
>3. That head lice are the vector for typhus;
>4. That the IMT convicted and hung defendants for participating in
> the Katyn Wood massacre;
>5. That Oswald Pohl was convicted of “steaming” people to death;
>6. That Turkey is part of Europe;
>7. That Raoul Wallenberg was a financial contributor to building
> the Holocaust Museum in Washington;
>8. That there were no protests in front of the Cambodian embassy
> in Washington;
>9. That “Miranda rights” were not in use in the miliary justice
> system prior to the Miranda decision;
>10. That the jury system is considered a basic human right by the
> United Nations . . . .. .
>11. That Israel has a written constitution;
>12. That CO2 gas cannot be an acid;
>13. That burning of coke is a commercial source of HCN;
>14. That the Nazi boycott of Jewish stores in April 1933 lasted
> only one day. . . .
>15. That Ca3(PO4)2 burns.
>16. That burning atmospheric nitrogen produces HCN.
>17. That human beings are only (.18)(.10) = 1.8% fat.
>18. That combustion of the human body is not exothermic.
>19. That atmospheric CO2 saturates water so that it cannot
> dissolve more CO2 if the partial pressure increase.
>20. That the calcium in bones burns.
>21. That Mr. McFee is Marduk.
>22. That Mueller was not head of the Gestapo.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:37 PDT 1996
Article: 44374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:05:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:06:56 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) said:

>>If anyone did harrass your family, they should be ashamed of
>>themselves. That is not how decent people act. I can accept that you might
>>not know anything about that.

>The only person who harassed the Giwer-troll’s family was the Giwer-troll
>himself, with clumsily forged messages.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:38 PDT 1996
Article: 44375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, IX
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:05:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:06:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>> It must be senility. alt.revision belongs to revision, not to orthodoxy.
>>It is people like you who do not belong here.

>Then perhaps the Giwer-troll should fold up his tent of lies and steal away,
>if the tellers of the truth disturb him so much. Of course, liars are not
>enamored of those who tell the truth. What Giwer-troll lies you say?
>Why…..

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:39 PDT 1996
Article: 44376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: missing files
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:04:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:06:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article , [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>said:

>>
>># Retired at 46, presently 50. Please keep your facts straight.

>>And why, pray tell, did the 163 IQ man retire at 46??

>>He keeps saying he’s a super-genius, that he’s far smarter than everybody
>>on this group, that he knows everything there’s to know about everything
>>under the sun.

>>So, why did Matt Giwer, this gift to humanity, this super-genius, retire
>>at such an early age? Wasn’t there *somebody* out there who could use his
>>services?

>Actually, he applied for a job to Marduk, but was refused.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 44377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:04:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:06:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>> The only thing that was “unacceptable” from the original movie was the
>>preview trailer for Part II where the Jews in Space were chasing Muslim
>>ships with

>> Torah
>> Torah
>> Torah

>>on the screen.

>> Some jokes even Mel Brooks is not permitted to make.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 44378 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritsch was a fraud
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:01:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:03:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>Material found on Nizkor is made available so that reasonable people
>>>can read for themselves and come to their own conclusions. None of
>>>the material is intended to meet the needs of silly trolls with
>>>extremely limited comprehension skills. Sorry about that.

>> Are you speaking for Nizkor when you say it carries things they know are
>>not true? Or haven’t you found the file I am talking about yet?

>Obviously Nizkor carries some things they know are not true, since there are
>megabytes of rubbish from you and Moron. The difference is that Nizkor is
>not afraid to have reasonable people discern the truth for themselves.

But of course this is not among them.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 44379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:01:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 12:02:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>> Because you are technoligically incapable of dealing with it.

>>> Someone who is technologically incapable of mastering a spell-checker
>>>is in no position to comment.

>> I was not aware Free Agent has a spell checker. How is it used?

>What? The great computer genius and inventor of HTML has not even mastered
>a spell-checker?

FREE Agent does not have one, fool.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT

Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:42 PDT 1996
Article: 44385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:19:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 10:20:35 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44385 soc.history.what-if:10781

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Matt Giwer trolled:

>>Fred Smoler wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer has increasingly shown himself to be a Holocaust revisionist,
>>>inflitrating soc.history.what-if under false colors, as was initially
>>>reported by diligent researchers on this list. Such activity is
>>>forbidden by our charter–what are the moderators going to do about it?

>Huh? soc.history.what-if is unmoderated. You could try complaining to
>[email protected], I suppose, but I doubt it would do any good. Giwer has
>been trolling in various forums for DECADES. If Netcom, where he recently
>moved after getting kicked off FidoNet and ComBase by his own son and his
>former friends, kicks him off, he’ll just move to another ISP. Just learn
>killfiles. For trn, simply add the following line to

You folks lie so fluently. I was not kicked off of Fidonet. The
Combase incident was because of the admission by the holohuggers that
they harrassed the company by email and voice until it was interfering
with his business. And then of course there was the holohugger
harrassment of my family.

They are lying scum very like Dahlman but you know that.

>~/News/soc/history/what-if/KILL:

> /[email protected]/f:j

>>>Is there a mechanism for simply refusing to post his submissions when
>>>they include Revisionist propaganda, while leaving him free to contribute
>>>misinformation on other topics? That would seem to leave his both speech
>>>rights and our charter intact. Comments?
>>
>> If you are indeed correct, then in fact revisionism is completely
>>on topic. Or can in not be discussed in any context?

>As you well know, alt.revisionism, which you are attempting to flood with
>hundreds of senseless posts per day, would be the appropriate forum.
>Followups redirected there.

People of course invited to read the newsgroup to see what I am saying
to make up their own minds on the matter. But then that is why you do
the slander, to discourage anyone from reading it.

After all, I am unaware of any aspect of history that is not open to
reconsideration. Your position is quite “unique” so to speak.

>soc.history.what-if might wish to contemplate a blissful world where Matt
>Giwer had never been born. For the way the world is now, see:

But of course your malicious slander has been spread in
soc.history.what-if also. I see no reason for you to be continuing
this.

I am certain the people in the soc.history.what-if conference are quite
able to judge for themselves.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:42 PDT 1996
Article: 44386 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:30:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 5:31:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## No, you poor, mentally retarded nazi-boy. It *is* your concern,
>## because, if you claim a piece of testimony exists, you have
>## to present it. If you can’t, it should be of concern to you.

># I did present. What did you think you were reading?

>You apparently don’t understand what “testimony” means. It means
>an accurate excerpt from what someone said. You posted something
>you took from some neo-Nazi web site. Not testimony.

An accurate except is not testimony but it is good to have a holohuggers
working definition of testimony.

>What you posted clearly contains lies. For instance, it claims a
>testimony was given about homicidal gassing in Belsen, while it
>was actually given about homicidal gassing in Birkenau.

We are only debating where 8000 people were burned or gassed in one
night. I see. Gee, just how did Birkenau burn or gas 8000 people in
one night? Let us all know how this miracle occurred.

>To repeat, what you posted contains lies. Not testimony.

It appears quite interesting that you are unable to face reality. What
you have been huckstering for so long has no basis in fact. And now you
are still huckstering 8000 burned or gassed in one night. Do you not
realize how absurd you sound?

>Can you understand this?

An example of testimony is appended to this message as a sig.

>If you post something which says “there is such-and-such
>testimony which says so-and-so”, while no such testimony really
>exists, then what you’re posting is not true. can you understand
>this?

When you post things that clearly can not happen you are posting things
that are not true. If you will understand that first, I will deal with
my side of it.

># In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by
># being burned alive?

>All photos are from the Thekla and Gardelegn atrocities, in which
>people were burned alive. You can look at the book they were
>taken from, for more details.

>I repeat the location of the photos:

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/

>Photos are

>Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg Gardelegen2.jpg
>Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

And I repeat my response.

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive.

========

The following is typical of holocaust eyewitness testimony.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:43 PDT 1996
Article: 44388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!iol!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:04:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 9:05:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Keith Morrison wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> > Here I keep seeing it said this guy Giwer is a troll and then he
>> >unleashes a cornucopia, a rapid fire, a whole volley, a flood, a
>> >hurricane, a 100 mega-ton series of articles that just about washes up
>> >the Holocaust story.
>>
>> And I have to thank the holohuggers for encouraging me to do so. Were
>> it not for all the little people behind me … (insert your favorite
>> acceptance speech here.)
>>
>> BTW: I am prepared to do a Keren every week. I have saved them all.
>> After all, that is not spamming by the holohugger definition.

>Please feel free to do so. And every single time you repost
>that article entitled “Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones”
>I will repost my response to your assertion, Oh Master of
>Science, that the skull is composed of two bones and the pelvis
>of one.

>For those who might have missed it, do read that thread. Mr
>Giwer pulls a gaff worthy of tom Moran at his height. He told
>me to check out Grey’s Anatomy to verify his answer. So I
> did. Twenty-two bones in the skull and seven in the pelvis,
>not counting the six small bones of the ears.

>For a man who insists on posting garbage that is so effortless
>to refute, this truly must be ranked as a classic.

Sounds like you want to make this a spamming conference and shut off the
holohuggers.

What you suggest, if both are accepted as true, will reflect upon me
personally and the credibility of the precious holocaust equally. It is
not clear why you would want to do that.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:44 PDT 1996
Article: 44389 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:57:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:58:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## I can’t find anywhere in Dr. Bendel’s testimony where he says
>## that it took one night to kill the 80,000 people. This may well
>## be another “revisionist” distortion.
>
># What you SAY you can not find is not my concern.
>
>No, you poor, mentally retarded nazi-boy. It *is* your concern,
>because, if you claim a piece of testimony exists, you have
>to present it. If you can’t, it should be of concern to you.

I did present. What did you think you were reading?

>## The Nazis did burn people alive. Even Al Baron admits to that.
>
># I do not give a rat’s ass what he accepts and he does not care
># what I accept.
>
>Ohmegosh. Giwer and Baron doing battle.

Not in the least. There is no orthodoxy required on this side of the
fence.

>## We have the photographic evidence of this taking place in
>## Thekla and Gardelegen.
>
># If you have photographic evidence of people being burned alive
># it isd quite amazing you have not posted it. But I am not amaze
># as I know you have no such photographs.
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/
>
>Photos are
>
>Gardelegen1.jpg Gardelegen3.jpg Thekla2.jpg Gardelegen2.jpg
>Thekla1.jpg Thekla3.jpg

This is a fine collection.

Gardelegen1.jpg

12 (?) people walking. No signs of fire. Appear to be carrying
stretchers.

Gardelegen3.jpg

Sitting man leaning on brickwork. No signs of fire, Extremities
intact. Left hand appears to be holding plant stems. (badly solarized
print)

Thekla2.jpg

Decomposed bodies along a wire fence with unburned bushes on the other
side of the fence.

Gardelegen2.jpg

Three men looking at body inside wooden building. Right extremities
intact. Wooden building shows no sign of fire damage.

Thekla1.jpg

Two men looking at two badly decomposed bodies on flat ground. No
indications of fire.

Thekla3.jpg

Three bodies on flat ground, one wearing a shoe. Shoe intact, not
burned.

Did you give me the right list of pictures? Want to try again?

Or did you read the captions and uncritically look at the pictures and
fail to notice there are no signs of fire?

In any event, you have no pictures of anyone being killed by being
burned alive?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:45 PDT 1996
Article: 44395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The full story of the reconstruction
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:07:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 801
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 2:09:44 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

SMITH’S REPORT

Number 12 — November / December 1992 –[Excerpts]

DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AT AUSCHWITZ STATE
MUSEUM ADMITS ON CAMERA THAT AUSCHWITZ “GAS
CHAMBER” IS A FRAUD!

Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH) now has Dr.Franciszek
Piper, senior
curator and director of archives at the Auschwitz State Museum, on
video- tape conceeding that
the Auschwitz “gas chamber” was “reconstructed” after the war, not from
plans drawn by
engineers and architects, but from such “eyewitness” recollections as
those of the corrupt Filip
Mueller and even Simon Wiesenthal.

David Cole, Regional Director (Southwest) for CODOH, flew to Poland and
Germany in
September to document on film the present state of the alleged “gassing
chambers” at
Auschwitz, Birkenau, Maidanek and Dachau. He brought back 20-some hours
of film on the
various sites.

At Auschwitz David hired a personal tour guide. Together with a camera
woman, he shot twelve
hours of tape at Auschwitz and Birkenau. When his professional tour
guide was unable to answer
David’s questions about the “gassing chamber” at Auschwitz, she asked
her supervisor to
intercede for her.

When some of the statements made by the tour guide as to the “original
state” of the Auschwitz
gas chamber are contradicted by her supervisor, we can see the young
lady’s confusion about
what it is she has been telling her tour groups over the years.

When the supervisor is unable, as well, to answer David’s questions
satisfactorily, she suggests
that she make an appointment with for him with Dr. Piper. David doesn’t
expect this. It’s an
exciting prospect. He’s being offered a unique opportunity. The
factotums at the Auschwitz State
Museum do not cooperate with revisionists. Robert Faurisson has been
denied access to the
Museum’s archives because he doesn’t follow the State “line” on the gas
chambers. Censorship
at its source! So David can’t express his pleasure and excitement. He
doesn’t want to give the
game away. He pulls it off very well. The kid’s a natural for high
stakes poker.

Before he left for Europe and the camps, David had decided that he would
go as a Jew, not as a
“revisionist.” He would wear his yarmulka and chat up anyone who would
talk to him. He would be
looking for information, for the truth, that would help him to answer
those back in America who no
longer believe the gas-chamber stories. If he had found something that
fit that bill, I have no doubt
he would have used it. I would have too. But he didn’t. What he found
was Dr. Franciszek Piper.

David tells me that Dr. Piper was not enthusiastic about being
interviewed on camera, and the
truth is he doesn’t look comfortable at the beginning. But David did
what he could to comfort the
good doctor. When he stepped into Dr. Piper’s office on the morning of
September 14th, he wore
his yarmulka and carried his prayer book.

David is a convinced atheist. You have the right to wonder if there’s an
ethical issue to be found
someplace around here. While we didn’t break our brains over it, we had
chatted about the ethics
of such a scenario before David left for Europe. David’s structuring of
the issue was simple: How
enormous does a great lie have to be before you can use a very small lie
to expose it?

In response to David’s questions, we have Dr. Piper on tape revealing
one “reconstruction” after
another to the Auschwitz “gas chamber.” To show you where Piper’s head
is (forgetting the
“gassing chambers” for the moment), he’s still willing to commit himself
to the stupid
“human-soap” story and the Buchenwald “human-skin-lampshade” hoax.

What will viewing this film mean to the hundreds of thousands of Jews
who have gone to
Auschwitz over the decades to view the Auschwitz “gas chamber”? Jews who
went not merely as
tourists, but as pilgrims seeking subjective and even spiritual
understanding from their experience
there. What is it going to mean to them to find that their experience
there was manipulated with
such vulgarity by the camp managers?

What will it mean to hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of
Germans, including all those
children, who discover that when they were told they were standing, as
it were, in the original
“belly of the beast” they were, in fact, inside a cheap carnival
sideshow run for four decades by
the Polish Communist Party in tandem with the world-wide Holocaust
Lobby? I think they’re going
to feel compromised. I think they’re going to be a little disenchanted.
That’s the risk you run when
you lie to people over and over again.

I’ve given hundreds of interviews to the print press and to radio and
TV. Dozens of people have
told me they have been to Poland and seen the Auschwitz “gas chamber”
there with their own
eyes. No one ever suggested that he understood that the gassing chamber
there was
reconstructed (fabricated). Not one said he or she understood that they
had been shown a cheap
“mock-up” of an “imagined” gassing chamber.

We’re editing an “Auschwitz” video now, which will have the interview
with Dr. Piper for its center
piece. It will show an Auschwitz tour guide saying that the “gas
chamber” there is in its original
state. It will show Dr. Piper stating that it’s been “reconstructed”
(faked). And it will show him
making other statements that compromise irretrievably the official
Auschwitz party line.

The video, David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek Piper is available for
purchase for $25 from
CODOH.

“SURVIVORS” VS. DAVID IRVING

Shelly Shapiro is the harridan who directs the Holocaust Survivors &
Friends Education Center in
Albany, New York. She’s led the attack against Boston gas-chamber expert
Fred Leuchter, author
of The Leuchter Report. Shapiro has worked to destroy Leuchter’s
livelihood and has tried to get
him jailed, ostensibly for practicing his trade “without a license.”

Why? Leuchter’s report argues, from a scientific and engineering
viewpoint, that the five rooms
allegedly used at Auschwitz/Birkenau as “extermination gas chambers”
could not have been and,
in fact, never were used for that purpose. So what’s the story? The
story is that the “gassing
chamber” story was the invention of the “anti-Fascist” Stalinist regime
with the irreplaceable help
of a handful of neurotic “survivors” with (an under-standable) political
attitude. The progressive
forces strike again!

British historian David Irving accepted received opinion about Auschwitz
being an
“extermination” camp until he read The Leuchter Report. The Report
turned him around on the
gas-chamber issue. Irving published Leuchter’s report in a special
British edition. His forward
arguing in favor of the Report ended with a challenge:

“…it is now up to them (the historians) to explain to me, as an
intelligent and critical
student of modern history, why there is no significant trace of any
cyanide compound
(Zyklon B) in the building(s) which they have always identified as
the former gas
chambers.

“Forensic chemistry is, I repeat, an exact science.

“The ball is in their court.”

So when Shelly Shapiro heard that Irving was to speak at Mt. Hood
Community College near
Portland, OR, she flew out to protest the talk on behalf of the
Holocaust Lobby. She arrived using
the progressive, anti-anti-Semitic smear tactics that the Lobby uses so
successfully to intimidate
media.

The “Coalition for Human Dignity,” another progressive forces group in
Portland fighting against
free inquiry, protested Irving’s talk too. And signs are that the
progressives from the totalitarian
Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith and Simon Wiesenthal Center were
lurking in the
background.

Why do I think so? Because I saw “the quote” the Portland Oregonian used
to smear David Irving.
It’s the one quote from a historian that is used over and over again by
media when Irving speaks.
It’s the “one quote”repeated by media when my full page essay/ad, “The
Holocaust Controversy:
The Case for Open Debate,” which quotes David Irving, is published.

This “one quote” is hysterically critical of Irving’s work. Where does
media get this “one quote”
about Irving? From those who would rather see Irving smeared than hear
him debated. Who might
that be? The Anti-Defamation League, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the
Shelly Shapiros and the
rest of those who represent the Holocaust Lobby rather than those who
want to get history into
accord with the facts.

Why does media repeat this one Irving “quote” and this one only? Because
media takes
handouts from the ADL et al. like Halloween children grasp for candy at
their neighbors’ doors. It
just doesn’t occur to your average journalist that such organizations
have agendas of their own.

So what is this “quote” that pops up everywhere when David Irving speaks
or is quoted? Historian
John Lukacs, writing in the National Review, wrote that Irving’s
Hitler’s War

“…contains hundreds of errors: wrong names, wrong dates and, what
is worse,
statements about events, including battles, that did not really
take place….”

After that, Lukacs becomes insulting.

All right. Maybe Lukacs is right, maybe he’s wrong. My responsibility is
to wonder if men other
than Lukacs have other views regarding Irving’s worth as an historian.
That goes to my
responsibility to encourage open debate on the “Holocaust.”

So Saturday afternoon I spent about 45 minutes in the Visalia public
library collecting the
following excerpts from reviews of Irving’s work over the last two or
three decades. I’ve done this
as a service to journalists both on and off campus who I send this
newsletter to, because it’s
obvious that these idealistic men and women can’t spare 45 minutes from
their busy schedules to
find this stuff for themselves. That’s why they take handouts from the
Lobby and use them as if
they were scripture.

What follows is not the last word about Irving. It’s not meant to be
“representative,” any more than
the Lukacs quote is. It’s meant to point out that Irving’s work has been
respected for decades and
to suggest that if he no longer believes in the Auschwitz gas-chamber
scam, and he no longer
does, that his doubting should be taken seriously.

And it’s meant to demonstrate that those people who pass John Lukacs’
views along to you, and
his views only, as representing the worth of David Irving’s historical
writings are, in their hearts,
liars.

THE WAR PATH: Hitler’s Germany

“Using interviews with former members of Hitler’s entourage, unexploited
diaries and papers,
etc., Irving reveals what Hitler knew about the unfolding events and how
he reacted to them…. His
aim is to present Hitler as a normal man, not a `psychopathic god,’ and
thus capable of being
comprehended by the methods historians normally use…. Highly
recommended.” [J.G.
Williamson, Library Journal, Jan 1 `79.]

“[Irving] is as disputatious as ever, but after all he deals with a
highly disputatious man. He brings
out, even revels in … [Hitler’s] … frequent contradictions….” [The
Economist, July 1 `78.]

“This fascinating narrative focusses on Hitler and his entourage as they
prepared for the Second
World War…. Mr. Irving is dispassionate and astute when writing about
the climbers and
eccentrics who made up the Nazi elite.” [ The New Yorker, Dec 11 `78.]

“Impressively researched and written…. A worthy addition to every
academic library….” [Choice,
March `79.]

HITLER’S WAR

“This book is a blockbuster, and not only because of its bulk. Irving is
a tireless and adroit
researcher, whose forte is coaxing unpublished material out of private
hands. His aim is to
present the war as Hitler saw it and in so doing unlock the personality
of the man himself.” [J.G.
Williamson, Library Journal, Dec 15 `76.]

GÖRING: A BIOGRAPHY

“…Irving has always written with verve and energy… [and this book]
… tells us a great deal that we
did not know about Göring’s direction of the Luftwaffe…. The book also
includes marvelous stuff
on his art collecting and plundering, and provides an absorbing account
of Göring’s varying
relationship with Adolf Hitler…. But perhaps the most intriguing
passages in the book … are those
that show how Göring’s popularity with the masses held up even when the
land he had promised
to protect with his Luftwaffe was being bombed at will by the Allies.”
[Gordon Craig, New York
Review of Books, Feb 2 `89.]

“The merit of this Göring biography lies in its mass of biographical
detail and in numerous …
source references….” [N Y Times Book Review, May 28 `89.]

THE WAR BETWEEN THE GENERALS

“Military historian Irving has written a brilliant and unusual social
history of the Allied High
Command. This is the war as our top commanders really lived it. There
are revelations about
Eisenhower and Patton that have never before appeared in print and that
may shock some
readers. Working from fresh sources, Irving reveals the inner war among
the high command.

This work belongs in every World War II collection and should be read by
anyone interested in the
conflict.” [S.L. Itkin, Library Journal, Mar 1 `81.]

THE DESTRUCTION OF DRESDEN

[Irving] has examined in detail the antecedents of the raid, the policy
behind it, the circumstances
in which it was planned and executed, and its gruesome consequences. He
has not flinched from
technical problems nor spared the layman technical language. But his
book has a certain terrible
compulsion, and its lessons come out more forcibly through his
temperate, dispassionate but
human style.” [Hugh Trevor Roper, Best Sellers, Mar 1 `64.]

“Mr. Irving has written more than a detailed account of a single
militarily questionable attack. He
has, in fact, mounted a powerful indictment against war. Though similar
in theme to Richard
Collier’s book about a German attack on London, The City That Would Not
Die, this study is a
more scholarly effort. Resolutely striving to be objective, Mr. Irving
includes an introduction to the
American edition by General Eaker, formerly 8th Air Force Commander….”

“…I must report that Irving is as objective as any writer can or ought
to be when brought face to
face with an atrocity of such grand scale…. Those who have not read
widely in the
concentration-camp literature are advised to skip quickly over the
photographs of the bombing
victims, and not to read at all the chapters describing their removal
>from cellars (air raid shelters),
their identification and burial.” [Warren Miller, The Nation, Mar 9
`64.]

“This is a superb deadpan narrative which adds a wealth of appalling
detail to the dry official
record….” [R.H.S. Crossman, New Statesman, Mr 3 `63.]

TRAIL OF THE FOX

“… is both a thrilling read and a sober portrait of the super hero
[Erwin Rommel] as a bundle of
human contradictions….” [Richard Boeth, N Y Times Book Review, Nov 20
`77.]

“…Irving has scented and disinterred many savory trouvailles which
will certainly garnish all future
studies of Rommel and his campaigns …. carping must not seem to
diminish the sense of
gratitude one owes to Irving.” [Ronald Lewin, Times Lit. Supplement, Nov
11 77.]

THE DESTRUCTION OF CONVOY PQ. 17

“…enthralling, objective, and magnificently told…. For most public
libraries and any war collection.”
[P.W. Filby, Library Journal, July `69.]

“…Irving has written one of the best books yet to appear about a
single operation of the war…. “…
a serious work of history with all the objectivity and attention to
detail which that implies…. More
than that, in its humanity, in its feeling for ordinary men trapped in
hideous danger with nowhere to
run, the book catches a glimpse of the true filthy essence of war
itself.” [D.C. Goddard, N Y
Times Book Review, June 1 `69.]

“By a skillful use of German sources [Irving] has constructed a most
complete and illuminating
account of the thinking of the German command and the operations of its
ships, submarines and
aircraft.” [Times Lit. Supplement, Nov 28 `68.]

THE MARE’S NEST

“[Mr. Irving’s book] is remarkable because it describes in parallel how
the fight proceeded not
only on the British side … but also among the Germans, in deciding to
what weapons, new or old,
resources ought to be applied at the war’s climax.” [Paul Johnson, The
Economist, Nov 28 `64.]

“[Irving] has, thank heaven, no taste for the gee-whiz school of
historical writing…. Mr. Irving has
turned up a great deal of half-forgotten but fascinating information.
[Drew Middleton, N Y Times
Book Review, Nov 28 `65.]

THE GERMAN ATOMIC BOMB: the History of Nuclear Research in Nazi Germany

“For anyone, but especially for the readers who have some technical
knowledge in the field of
atomic sciences, Irving’s book provides fascinating reading, and a
wealth of valuable information
as presented in the records.” [Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, June `68.]

“Irving’s account can not be praised too highly. Those readers who might
be lost by the scientific
aspects that he relates in great detail will still find [this] a
fascinating and rewarding story. [D.S.
Greenberg, Book World, May 6 `68.]

“A serious, thorough history of the entire German nuclear project….
Recommended very highly for
public and academic libraries where it will appeal to the specialist and
informed layman.” [J.W.
Weigel, Library Journal, May 1 `68.]

_______________________________

So, why don’t the Shelly Shapiros and people representing the Holocaust
Lobby inform journalists
that there is more to David Irving as an historian that what Lukacs
says? Because they are
political agents representing The Holocaust Lobby! You don’t have to be
a rocket scientist
to see through this scam, no matter what example journalists and your
average professor have
set for you.

Shelly Shapiro is quoted in The Oregonian as saying: “There is no other
side to the Holocaust.”
David Irving is a holocaust revisionist so there is no “other side” to
David Irving either. See?
That’s what lobbies do. Journalists and academics, they’re supposed to
do something else.

THE HEMINGWAY WESTERN STUDIES CENTER

The HWSC & Boise State University Student Union has included my little
book, Confessions of a
Holocaust Revisionist: Excerpts from the Second (Enlarged) Edition, in
an exhibition of small
magazines in the Student Union Art Gallery. The show will run through 15
November.

The exhibition, organized by Assistant Professor of English Tom Trusky,
is entitled “Some Zines:
American Alternative & Underground Magazines, Newsletters & APAs
(amateur press
associations).” I’ve received a copy of the over-sized, four-color, 60
page catalog and it’s very
nicely done.

In his notes to the catalog, Trusky writes that he became interested in
alternative publications
through Factsheet Five, which in turn was a catalog and review organ for
the alternative press
that reviewed my book, newsletters, and press releases fairly, even
sympathetically.

Trusky’s observations on Confessions trash the my writing and me
together, but let’s give him his
due. He put me in the exhibition–and that’s more than I had reason to
expect.

I have since learned that the founder and publisher of Factsheet Five,
Mike Gunderloy, is Jewish.
A pregnant side note, particularly when we recall that my associate in
CODOH and the video
project, David Cole is a Jew as well. I don’t want to bore you with this
Jewish business, but I
believe I should point out that the issue of Confessions that is on view
in this exhibition is
published by Popular Reality in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The owner is David
(Crowbar) Nestle. He
and I haven’t got around to talking about it, but Nestle is Jewish as
well.

Do we see a trend here? Is it pregnant with implications for
organizations such as the
Anti-Defmation League of B’nai B’rith and the Simon Wiesenthal Center
and the rest of the
Holocaust Lobby? I think it is. And I suspect it’s full of meaning for
the rest of us as well.

In her interesting intro, Cari Goldberg Janice writes: “Small Press.
Underground press.
Alternative press. Fan magazine. Fanzine. Zine. Here we have in no
particular order the terms
loosely and tightly connected to that mysterious publishing region in
the netherland between
what’s on your newsstand and your secret diary….”

Other titles shown in the exhibition include: The New Moon Directory
(published by Eric L. Watts,
346 Carpenter Drive, #51, Atlanta, GA 30328) — a listing of more than
200 APAs world wide.

Twisted Image (published by Ace Backwords, 1630 University Ave., #26,
Berkeley, CA 94703) —
a comics monthly which has, courageously, been publishing a debate over
revisionism for near
two years now, including correspondence about Art Spiegelman, the
unhappy creator of the
artsy/fartsy, world renowned Maus, the “comic” book about Auschwitz in
which Jews are drawn
as mice, Germans as dogs and Poles as pigs (sic!).

ELIE WIESEL And His GEYSERS-Of-BLOOD DEMENTIA

In my book, Confessions of a Holocaust Revisionist, Part I, I noted that
Elie Wiesel claims “there
is eyewitness evidence” that when the Germans executed some Soviet
citizens at Babi Yar in
Ukraine the cadavers of those that were Jews, in a unique protest
against their ill- treatment,
“spurted geysers of blood from their graves for months after they were
buried.” I’ve suggested that
if Elie Wiesel really believes this craziness that he’s in desperate
need of deep therapy.

A Texas writer, Mitchell Jones, finds the story quite credible and my
mocking it to be irrational and
anti-Jewish. Jones publishes a newsletter, My Response (21st Century
Logic, 150 E. Whitestone
#148-329, Cedar Park TX 78613), in which he tries to discredit holocaust
revisionism.

One thread that runs through Jones’ writing concerns the qualities of
his own brain, which he
believes to be a stunning organ. Reading Jones on his own intellect I
begin to see an image of a
movie horse in a Hollywood studio, preening before his mirror, admiring
his putz. This show horse
sees his own organ as being stronger, more virile, more flexible, more
sensitive, more pliable,
larger and more potent than the organ of any other nag on the lot.

Several years ago Jones and I spoke on the telephone. I can’t recall
why, but I do recall that after a
while, in what seemed to me pretty much off the wall, he started talking
about how Jews are more
intelligent than Gentiles. I thought he was joking, but while I was
still laughing happily he began
defending his thesis. Maybe Jones is right. Maybe guys like Elie Wiesel
aren’t really Jewish.

With regard to the geyser-of-blood story, where dead Jews are pumping
geysers of blood from
their graves for months after they are buried, Jones writes (MR 57) that
I should approach the
story objectively, maintain an open mind, and try to find out what the
facts really are.

The other night my six-year-old, Paloma, asked me if it’s true that the
cow jumped over the moon. I
recalled Mitchell Jones’ advice about keeping an open mind so I told her
I didn’t think so but I
couldn’t prove that the heifer either did or didn’t and that I would
open a file on the story. Why does
Mitchell Jones believe that Elie is right about his geysers-of-blood
story?

“I did the research that Smith should have done.”

Did he go to wartime-generated documents? Not even close. When you have
an organ as pliable
as Mitchell’s, secondary sources quoting unsupported affidavits are all
you need. He quotes The
Final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger and Babi Yar by Anatyoli Kuznetsov.

First, he theorizes a little. “…the Babi-Yar Massacre occurred on
Sept. 29-30, 1941, in the Jewish
cemetery outside Kiev. After the bodies of some 35,000 Jews had been
buried in a mass grave,
the ground froze over and remained frozen until spring (emphasis mine).
Result: in March, 1942,
when the spring thaw occurred, the accumulated pressure from the gases
generated by tesn of
thousands of putrefying bodies was released at the surface in the form
of hundreds of small
explosions. Logically [he writes] such explosions would have produced
geysers of earth, water,
mud, and/or blood…. Hundreds of people doubt-lessly [sic] witnessed
these explosions, and
some of their comments have been recorded for posterity. One example is
the following:

“In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs, was
driving with [SS Colonel
Paul] Blobel…. At the Babi Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions
which threw up columns of
earth. It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of bodies,
and Blobel explained: `Here
my Jews are buried.'” (Reitlinger, pg. 234-235.)

“Since this description refers to`columns of earth’ rather than `geysers
of blood,’ it is clearly not
the source to which Wiesel referred in [my emphasis] The Jews of
Silence. Nevertheless, it
provides a rational explanation for Wiesel’s statement, and “utterly
destroys Bradley Smith’s
insinuation that Wiesel is insane [my emphasis].”

“Utterly destroys…?” I don’t think so, Mitchell.

Aside from Jones’ comic note that Blobel’s alleged statement is “clearly
not the source” of the
statement that Jones wants to prove–it isn’t even Blobel who says
Blobel said “Here my Jews are
buried.” After the war, when Hartel’s neck was on the line in a war
crimes trial, Hartel signed an
affidavit that says Blobel said it. Maybe Blobel did say it. How is
Jones going to demonstrate that
Blobel said it? Is he going to try?

What is the “original research” that this Texas maven, Mitchell
(“vibrant-putz”) Jones did to
support his theory about the ground freezing at Babi Yar maybe ten,
twenty or thirty feet deep or
maybe deeper) soon after September 30 so that the blood of 35,000
corpses did not disperse
into the ground but remained in the those talented Jewish cadavers so
they could put on their
geyser show the following spring?

Here Jones quotes from Anatoli Kuznetsov’s Babi Yar, where Anatoli
recalls that on Sept. 28,
1941, the day before the alleged massacre took place, “it was a cold day
with a lot of wind….” So
there you have it. The 28th was a cold and windy day. With that Jones
has all the information he
needs to support his ground-freezing-and-thawing analysis of the ravine
at Babi Yar. What more
does such a man need?

“It didn’t have to turn out that way, of course,” Jones writes, “but it
did.” Jones simply ignores the
text. Elie didn’t write that the cadavers waited for months after the
alleged killings to begin their
unique exhibition. He wrote, “… for months after the killings….”
That is, for months following the
killings.

I suspect Jones has a theory about this. Maybe the tens of thousands of
Jewish cadavers
allegedly buried at Babi Yar called a meeting there under ground, took a
vote and decided to hold
their breaths to prohibit all excess bleeding and wait until the ground
froze over and then thawed
out again the following spring so they could spurt out their excellent
geysers-of- blood show for the
benefit of Albert Hartel.

In any event, this is much too much about much too little. The real
question is: did the Germans
massacre Jews at Babi Yar? If so, did they do it for no reason other
than that they were Jews? Is
Babi Yar proof, or even evi-dence, that the German State had a policy to
murder all the Jews of
Europe? I don’t think it’s even close.

My view, and I’m willing to be convinced that I’m wrong, is that Elie
Wiesel can’t be trusted, that
he’s a fool, and that he’s probably something worse. Sorry, Mitchell.
Maybe some day, with that
magnificent organ you like to play around with so, you’ll be able to
convince me I’m wrong. You’re
going to have to do a lot better than your “it-was-a-cold-and-windy-day”
ejaculation, however.

The “Holocaust” controversy is at the heart of the cultural wars being
fought out on our college
campuses. The alleged genocide of the European Jews by a European State
on the European
continent half a century ago is still, incredibly, a primary weapon used
by the progressive forces in
their struggle against liberty and a free press here in America.

So I don’t want to be too hard on Mitchell Jones. He does what the
Shelly Shapiros, the Elie
Wiesels and the rest of that crowd of censors and back-biters have no
stomach for. He debates
revisionists. He wants to debate me. I suggest he debate Butz, Faurisson
or someone who has
done some real work. I promote debate among others, some of whom, with a
little luck, will have
informed themselves on the matters to hand.

Now that Jones has, in fact, come into the debate he has chosen to stand
on the side of the State
and with the rich and influential against a handful of researchers and
scholars scattered almost
invisibly over the nations of the West. It isn’t the revisionists who
are the problem for this society,
but the Culture Police who sniff though revisionist writings looking for
heresy, their media rack of
slander and lies waiting in the back ground for those who refuse to
recant, kneel and convert to
the dominant beliefs of the culture.

One Last Note on Babi Yar: The Polish Historical Society has published a
booklet entitled A Fact
Sheet on the Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Babi Yar
Massacre (PHS, 91
Strawberry Hill Ave., Suite 1038, Stamford, CT 06902).

Edited by Marek Wolski, it contains chapters on, among related matters,
“The first message
about the massacre of Jews of Kiev,” and “Nuremberg International
Military Tribunal Ignores
Soviet Babi Yar and Katyn Testimonies.”

In this section it’s noted that the “first post-war mention of the Babi
Yar massacre in the New York
Times took place on February 14, 1968….”

With the Times, then, the primary holocaust scandal sheet in America,
Babi Yar was something
of an after- thought. A twenty-seven-years-after afterthought. When you
look into the story, you
begin to understand why.

ADL CENSORSHIP: UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS

Those of you who have followed the Campus Project will recall the
struggle that took place at U.
Texas at Austin earlier this year. There was an incredibly neurotic
scandal over the acceptance of
my full page ad on “The Holocaust Controversy” and later over a second
ad, sponsored by the
Institute for Historical Review on “The `Human Soap’ Holocaust Myth.”
For a look at how the ADL
censors work, I refer you to an article that appeared in the June 1992
issue of the ADL newsletter,
Frontlines.

Mr. Jeffery A. Ross is proud of what the ADL accomplished. It’s
difficult to know what to say to
such men. It’s as if they carry in their hearts the values of Soviet or
maybe a fascist culture. A
culture that has no history of valuing the right of every individual to
express doubt about what he
doubts, whatever it is. It’s as if the Jeffery A. Rosses have yet to be
accultureated into a free
society. We should feel sympathy for such men, but we should not allow
them to distort our
society.

But wait a minute! The U. Texas story isn’t over yet. Rolf Hermes, a
supporter living near the U.
Texas-Pan American campus at Edinburg (in South Texas), placed the
full-page “Holocaust
Controversy” ad in the student newspaper there, The Pan American. It’s
causing the usual stir.
The ad is attacked but not examined. I can imagine the hair-pulling at
the State, Regional,
National and Galactic headquarters of the Anti-Defamation League, to say
nothing of what’s
going on behind the scenes at U. Texas in Austin, where there was
substantial support for running
the ad before the kids were steam-rollered by the ADL and the rest of
the Lobby.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 23:30:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Sobran – Israel’s “Amen Corner” OWNS Press, White House, Congress
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:42:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles) wrote:

> Remember, Joe Sobran was long-time, respected columnist on William F.
>Buckley Jr.’s very “mainstream” “NATIONAL REVIEW” magazine before he
>became the focus of some thin-skinned people who can dish it out but
>can’t take it.
> Once he discussed some issues which some American Jews were
>understandably embarrased by, however — which doesn’t at all make
>Sobran an “antisemite,” obviously — he was kicked of the magazine and,
>all-too-typically, demonized in the largely Jewish-run liberal media.
> In recent years Pat Buchanan, a man I respect and admire immensely,
>has become a like object of demonization.
>
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Mayor Loz)
>writes:
>>
>>
>> Israeli columnist Ari Shavit claims “…the White House, the
>>Senate and much of the American media is in our (Israel’s) hands….”
>>———————————————————————-
>-
>>Following is an article from the June 13, 1996 edition of The Wanderer
>>that cries for wide distribution.
>>———————————————————————-
>-
>>”In Our Hands”
>>by Joseph Sobran
>>
>>One isn’t supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
>>now holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>>media in its hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic
>>conspiracy theory.
>>
>>The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis. In an essay
>>reprinted in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit,
>>an Israeli columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli
>>killing of more than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: “We killed them
>>out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude
>>that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>>media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our
>>own…”

But of course pointing out what is commonly accepted in Israel will be
called antisemitic.

It is such an easy word for those who have not other mental faculties to
use and it gets the unthinking and uncritical on their side.

Anyone who would published the same things that are published in
mainstrean Israeli publications about Israel in this country is called
an antisemite. It is sort of like, only a black can say nigger.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 23:30:06 PDT 1996
Article: 44398 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor, Hoaxes are us
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:51:55 GMT
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># dkeren[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[To Giwer]

>## This is the final proof that you are an insane liar. I have
>## never said anything like this. I have never said nor wrote
>## that there were no delousing chambers.

># When I referred to the standard delousing chambers
># manufactured by Degesh what did you think I was talking about?

>I said that, of course, regarding your claim that the gas chambers
>were delosuing chambers. I didn’t say there were no delousing
>chambers. I mentioned the delousing chambers many times in my
>articles.

>But you knew that, and you were intentionally lying. Nothing new
>about that.

You appear to be very confused. Did you find the right pictures yet?

>I also asked you if Dr. Rascher’s letter, about testing combat gases
>on humans in Dachau, was really about delousing.

I do not remember such a question but if you will provide a translation
and a chain of evidence for it, I will render an opinion.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT

More Nazi physics at work.

I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.

On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:09:57 PDT 1996
Article: 44402 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One man’s opinion
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:02:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 10:03:52 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) [ITFMA] writes
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>”The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>>>>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>>>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>>>was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>>>>political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list
>>>>of pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency
>>>>required it. It was the foundation of the American system of law and
>>>>justice and [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country
>>>>discarding those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a
>>>>vanquished enemy.”
>>>>– U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
>>>>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>>>>p.189-190.

>>> You know, if I didn’t know that Mr. Giwer knows that appeal to
>>>authority is a fallacy, I’d say this looked an awful lot like an
>>>appeal to authority.

>> But as you know it is corroboration of the statement I made.
>>You also know that even our distinguished attorney from Pennsylvania
>>insisted I was wrong.

>> Don’t forget the Justice Douglas also agreeing with me.

>Perhaps I’m being parochial, I can’t for the life of me see what the US
>Constitution and Bill of Rights (which I’m sure are a really good idea)
>have to do with the Nuremberg process. Was Nuremberg part of the USA ?
>Were the accused US citizens ? Were their crimes committed in the USA ?
>I appear to be coming up short of ideas as to why the US Constitution
>should have much bearing on a trial of Germans in Germany for crimes
>committed in Germany, Poland, the USSR, France, etc.

>Perhaps someone who has the enviable good fortune to live in the United
>States could help me out here ?

Are you saying that the UK still permits people to be punished for
things they did before they were declared illegal? Or are you merely
supporting the idea that that is the way things should be?

Perhaps you have never heard of the concept of clean hands. There were
more than enough slaughters to go around in that war, Katyn woods to
Dresden. Yet those responsible were judging the losers. You may say
that someone had to but then should the other perpetrators go free?

Perhaps you have never heard of impartiality in the process of
administering justice. Were the French, British, Americans and Russians
impartial?

Perhaps you feel that there are no universal principles of justice that
should be observed. That would at least be a clear position to take.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 44404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!sdd.hp.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nazi Massacre Of the Insane, V
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:29:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:30:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Extract from the Diary of General Halder, September-November 1941
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. X, p. 1195-1196]
>—————————————————————–
>26 September 1941:
> .
> .
>h. Mental institutions in Army Group North. Russians regards the
> feebleminded as sacred beings. Killing them is necessary,
> nontheless.

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 44405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!sdd.hp.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nazi Massacre Of the Insane, IV
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:28:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:30:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Dr. Hilfrich, Bishop of Limburg, to the Reich Minister of
>Justice, August 13 1941
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 845-846]
>———————————————————————
>Regarding the report submitted on July 16 by the Chairman of the Fulda
>Bishops’ conference, Cardinal Dr. Bertram, I consider it my duty to
>present the following as a concrete illustration of destruction of
>so-called “useless life”.

>About 8 Kilometers from Limburg in the little town of Hadamar, on a
>hill overlooking the town, there is an institution which had formerly
>served various purposes and of late had been used as a nursing home.
>This institution was renovated and furnished as a place in which, by
>consensus of opinion, the above mentioned Euthanasia has been
>systematically practiced for months- approximately since February
>1941. This fact is, of course, known beyond the administrative
>district of Wiesbaden…

>Several times a week buses arrive in Hadamard with a considerable
>number of such victims. School children of the vicinity know this
>vehicle and say “here comes the murder-box again”. After the arrival
>of the vehicle, the citizens of Hadamar watch the smoke rise out of
>the chimney…

>The effect of the principles at work here that children call each
>other names and say “you’re crazy; you’ll be sent to the baking oven
>in Hadamar”…

>All God-fearing man consider this destruction of helpless beings a
>crass injustice…

>Officials of the State Police, it is said, are trying to suppress
>discussions of the Hadamar occurrences by means of severe threats…

>I beg you most humbly, Herr Reich Minister, in the sense of the report
>of the Episcopate of 16 July of this year, to prevent further
>transgressions of the Fifth Commandment of God.

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:09:59 PDT 1996
Article: 44406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wetzel Writes Lohse About the ‘Gassing Aapparatuses’
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:26:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:27:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
>[Hitler and the Final Solution – G. Fleming, University of California
>Press, 1984, p. 70]
>————————————————————————
>With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer’s
>Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
>the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
>first be constructed. Brack’s view is that, since construction of the
>apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
>than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
>send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
>Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
>Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
>question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
>precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
>contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer’s Chancellory through
>your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
>dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
>that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
>Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
>office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
>information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
>Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
>[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
>evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
>fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
>present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
>without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
>those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
>to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
>mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
>procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
>fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
>the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
>apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
>to any further measures you take.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:10:01 PDT 1996
Article: 44407 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘About 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated’
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:25:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:27:03 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] diaries, March 27, 1942:
>[The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 – L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948,
>p. 147-148]
>———————————————————–
>Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government
>[Nazi occupied Poland] are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure
>is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely.
>Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about
>60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent
>can be used for forced labor.
>
>

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:10:01 PDT 1996
Article: 44408 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Liquidate them yourselves!’
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:25:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:26:28 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Speech by Frank [Governor of occupied Poland], December 16 1941
>[Documents on the Holocaust – Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 247, Nazi
>Conspiracy and Aggression – Washington, U.S Govt. Print.
>Off., 1946 Vol. II p. 634]
>—————————————————————
>One way or another — I will tell you quite openly — we must finish
>off the Jews. The Fuehrer put it into words once: should united Jewry
>again succeed in setting off a world war, then the blood sacrifice
>shall not be made only by the peoples driven into war, but then the
>Jew of Europe will have met his end….
>
>But what should be done with the Jews? Can you believe that they will
>be accommodated in settlements in the Ostland? In Berlin we were told:
>why are you making all this trouble? We don’t want them either, not in
>Ostland nor in the Reichskommissariat; liquidate them yourselves!
>Gentlemen, I must ask you to steel yourselves against all
>considerations of compassion. We must destroy the Jews wherever we
>find them, and wherever it is at all possible, in order to maintain
>the whole structure of the Reich…
>
>The Jews represent for us also extraordinary malignant gluttons. We
>have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government
>[Nazi occupied Poland], perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and
>everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or
>poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take
>measures which will lead somehow to their annihilation, and this in
>connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions
>with the Reich.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 00:10:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44409 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:18:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 3:20:19 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Posted, and emailed to “DvdThomas” to remind him that I’m still waiting.
>Cc’d to Ernst Zuendel and Ingrid Rimland to remind them, again, that her
>comments on Zuendel’s calls for censorship have been archived and
>responded to, and that of course if they have any more comments, those
>will be archived as well. (No, we haven’t heard from them either.
>Strange how these folks all seem to get very quiet when faced with the
>hard, cold facts of Zuendel’s censormongering.)

Where can I find his position on citizenship for Zundel? Or do you
accept that he supports free speech for Zundel but not in Canada?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 01:01:45 PDT 1996
Article: 44417 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Giwer goofs again!
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:51:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>I am a Jew and an atheist.

Tribal oxymoraon alert!

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 01:01:46 PDT 1996
Article: 44439 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:49:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 458
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## If so, what we have here is either an error made by the
>## newspaper (someone thought that because the testimony was
>## given in the “Belsen Trial”, it described something that
>## happened in Belsen), or an outright “revisionist” lie.
>
># Now that makes all the difference in the world.
>
>You really don’t get it, do you?
>
>The main argument in your article was that testimony was,
>allegedly, given about mass murder by gas in Belsen, a
>camp in which there were no homicidal gas chambers. However,
>the testimony was given about Auschwitz, which makes your
>article void.

And also is any testimony void that violates any other aspect of
physical reality which includes most of yours.

># Whereas Belsen did not have the facilities to gas or burn 80,000
># in a single night, Auschwitz did.
>
>I can’t find anywhere in Dr. Bendel’s testimony where he says
>that it took one night to kill the 80,000 people. This may well
>be another “revisionist” distortion.

What you SAY you can not find is not my concern. Read it and weep.

># As you can see he is also promoting the burned alive story and so
># are you.

>The Nazis did burn people alive. Even Al Baron admits to that.

I do not give a rat’s ass what he accepts and he does not care what I
accept.

It is an idiot statement.

>We have the photographic evidence of this taking place in
>Thekla and Gardelegen.

If you have photographic evidence of people being burned alive it is
quite amazing you have not posted it. But I am not amaze as I know you
have no such photographs.

Nice try but you fucked up again.

A Tale of two Gassings

A Tale of Two Gassings

For those seeing this for the
first time, consider for a moment the impact of essentially the
same story with the details changed and a different set of
fabulous details thrown in.

What you are going to read
are two different descriptions of the same event. Where you
would expect to find the two stories to be complimentary and to
shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.

We find unexplainable
contradictions in most places. In one case we find an
unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common
misconception. We find different people and numbers of people
involved.

We even find an absolutely
impossible deteail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing
comparison.

Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger,
1966, as cited in Conot ¹

Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded

commentary

Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet
commissars and other POW’s who were subject to liquidation.
H&oumlss’s men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but
on September 3 H&oumlss’s enterprising subordinate
Hauptsturmf&uumlhrer Fritsch

Note that different people are involved in the different stories.
In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch.

Also note that in one case
there is no mention H&oumlss and in the other he is mentioned.

noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing
the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed
to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.

thought of an expedient new method based on the camp’s own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow to get rid of them.

Two experts had
fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide,
Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that
turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (H&oumlss, “Commandant
of Auschwitz,” 175. Interrogation of H&oumlss, 14 May 1946, NA RG
238, M-1019/R 28/63)

Note in one case the companions of
this officer are charged with delousing. In the other case
professional exterminators are brought in.

Note also that person knocked
out with one whiff of a deadly poison.

Note further that it is not a
crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen
cyanide absorbed into diatomite, what we commonly use today as
kitty litter and to clear up machine shop oil spills.

To Breitwieser, this seemed to
offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming
executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the
Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue
pellets,

Note that these pellets are grey
and not blue. Diatomite is grey. Cyanide is colorless. The
color is wrong.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

On September 3 Fritsch decided
to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians
and another 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital into an
underground detention cell.

Note that both the number and
the composition of the people differ.

which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.

Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas
masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like
blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of
poison gas.

After they left, the doors were sealed.(H&oumlss,
Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer,
“Auschwitz,” in J&aumlckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den
Juden, 167-68) H&oumlss wrote later that death was instantaneous.
Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to
witness the event; he was away on a business trip.

Note that the first story
appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other
stories while the second has a “walked among” indication.

Note in the second story this
is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the
gas is invisible.

Note also that this separate
and independent story also invents a false blue color.

Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the
bodies were met by a fearsome sight.

Other sources indicate that
even the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had
to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When H&oumlss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the
successful experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz,
H&oumlss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and,
according to H&oumlss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the
peasant farmstead for extermination.(H&oumlss, Commandant, 175.
>From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I,
190)(Breitman, 203)

Here we have a disagreement as
to the times involved and the subsequent actions if any. In the
first story it is unclear why, if being immediately “knocked out”
was expected that they waited two days. In the second story it
is strange that there is a major conflict between the time taken
to die.

Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their
death agonies, torn out each other’s hair, and bitten off their
fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous
blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail
tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)

Here we have a description worthy
of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King
would never make.

Go back and read about the
statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas.
Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they
die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted
injuries.

And then somehow this
particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and
which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing
into gelatinous masses.

When impossible things are
claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a
story.

We have two different people
getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions
are charged with delousing and in the second case professional
fumigators are brought in.

In one story it is 1000
Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick
people.

In one case the pellets are
dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are
walking around in the room to spread it.

In neither case is the room
large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.

In the first story there is a
very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked
out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting)
while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately.
No horrifying details are noted.

In the former story the
impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does
not include them or anything out of the ordinary.

One has to wonder how people
who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story
and the conflicts between them.

¹ also found in
Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database but it may be purged by
the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they
approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original
work.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 01:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 10793 of soc.history.what-if
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:04:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 2:06:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44447 soc.history.what-if:10793

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:19:01 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>> But of course your malicious slander has been spread in
>>soc.history.what-if also. I see no reason for you to be continuing
>>this.

>> I am certain the people in the soc.history.what-if conference are quite
>>able to judge for themselves.

>Then no doubt they would be interested to learn that you of the 217
>posts received by my server in the past three days which consist by
>and large of multiple copies of snippets you ahve tken from various
>Holocaust denial websites. Perhaps they would be interested to know
>that wriying now features on one of those web pages.

So why would they confuse that conference with alt.flame.revisionism?

But you are getting some attention of people interested in history.

>To save the gentle readers of soc.history.what-if the chore of wading
>through these 217 posts, perhaps they could judge your qualities as a
>man from the following:

>
> Path:pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca

That makes it a modest collection of the nonsense that was at one time
believed about the holocaust but has been quietly dropped in an effort
to take out the more ridiculous parts.

It will certainly be a good place to start for people who might be
interested. It is good for you to set up such a resource.

Anyone interested in history knows how wrong interpretations can be at
times.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:51 PDT 1996
Article: 44459 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!marlin.ucsf.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Giwer goofs again!
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:48:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:49:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:60072 alt.politics.usa.republican:218724 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:323988 alt.politics.perot:49262 alt.revisionism:44459

Johan Carlson wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Richard Harrold) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Charles) wrote:
>>
>> >> In recent years, Pozner has been a co-host with Phil Donohue on yet
>> >>another tv talk show. Problem is, I can’t figure out who’s further to
>> >>the left, ex-Soviet aparachnik Pozner or Donohue!
>> >>–
>>
>> >But please explain something. If this is true, then why did so many
>> >Jews want to leave the Soviet Union? Why weren’t they allowed to
>> >practice their faith in their own country if Communisim is so
>> >intertwined with Judaism? And why isn’t it possible to explain those
>> >U.S. consulate reports as mere anti-semitism held by the authors of
>> >those reports?
>>
>> I did not think it was any secret that the ones who took over were
>> atheist Jews. They did not make any exceptions.
>>

>Atheist Jews ?
>What is this…Giwer is usually the one to play word games…but now it seems like he
>is about to have a dose of his own medicine 🙂
>(Even though Mr. Giwer has never made fun of my (non-native) english I had to look these words
>up…just to make sure he won’t try any of his word-tricks)

>According to the “Collins Cobuild English Language Dictionary”:
> Atheist = A person who believes that there is no God
> Jew = A person who believes and practices the religion of Judaism.
> Judaism = The religion of the Jewish people, based on the Old Testament
> of the Bible and the Talmud or the book of laws and traditions.

>It seems to me that an “Atheistic Jew” is a contradiction in terms. It is true though that
>you can be both communist and Jewish, atheist and communist. But it will be very difficult to
>practice Judaism while believing God doesn’t exist.

>It doesn’t surprise me at all that Mr. Giwer tries to pull this stunt. Usually it’s a little
>bit harder to prove he’s wrong…

Excuse me but you are a very late comer to this discussion.

I in fact originally posted that an atheist could not be a Jew.

All kinds of holohuggers jumped in and insistend that a person was
Jewish by either religion OR birth.

If you have a problem my my statement, take it up with they holohuggers
here. They insist it is possible.

In fact I agree with you. It is a clearly absurd, stupid and primitive
idea.

But in fact, that is what they claim is true.

Deal with them.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:52 PDT 1996
Article: 44477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Doing it again
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:51:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 2:53:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

FREEDOMPHOBIA. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has joined the attack on
the free exchange of ideas on the Internet. In a memo, the center has
askedInternet providers to adopt a “code of ethics” encouraging
providers to refuse service to individuals or groups espousing unpopular
political opinions. Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Wiesenthal Center said
the aim is to limit the access of “extremists” to the Internet’s World
Wide Web.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:53 PDT 1996
Article: 44485 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:04:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 7:06:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>A few hours later, in a little bookstore on St. Charles street in the
>French Quarter, I was astounded to come across a volume detailing the
>history of the U.S. Submarine Service from its inception to 1945!
>Serendipity! Still stoked at actually meeting someone who had been
>through the real shit, I bought the volume and rushed to read about my new
>friend. Took only about three minutes to find the right appendix and
>determine that there never was a U.S. submarine called the Sunfish.
>Another thirty minutes revealed large flaws in dates and other details
>that he furnished so freely and were still fresh in my mind.

>It happens.

By any chance was this guy named Ferree?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:53 PDT 1996
Article: 44486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:13:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 8:15:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:53:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>
>> As you know extermination was carried out by four methods, steaming,
>>electrocution, gassing and vacuuming. As there were no extermination
>>camps there were none of these four methods of extermination.

>> What is it you do not understand?

>How you came to believe that this statement is at all logical.

Would you care to explain what it was really like?

=====
“He’s a Nazi! A Nazi!”

“And how do you know he is a Nazi?”

“He gassed me and burned me up.”

Quizzical look.

“I got better.”

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:54 PDT 1996
Article: 44487 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:15:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 8:17:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:29:01 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>[snip]

>> Nice try, phys ed major.

>> Everyone does know that the only type described as useful for pest
>>control used wood pulp.

>I would be not be surprised at this point to learn that .163 was your
>Little League batting average. It would explain a lot.

You do understand your juvenalia does not change anything.

It says what it says. Nothing more and nothing less.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:55 PDT 1996
Article: 44491 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So long and thanks for all the BBQs
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:45:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 7:46:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> Rajzman believed they killed between 10,000 and 12,000
>> people every day at Treblinka. There were plans to increase
>> the number of ovens from ten to tenty-five to keep up with
>> the output of the gas chambers.
>>
>>

> Although I was unable to verify an earlier Giwer claim about something
>on Nizkor (the supposed Hoess acquittal), this quote is authentic. The
>file is under

>places/germany/nuremberg/tusa/east.001.

It is good to see you folks are keeping busy.

>># Ovens. Damn. Where are all of those open pit BBQs we have been
>># hearing about? Rather where are the ovens? Just another case of
>># can’t see the ovens for the trees so to speak.
>>#
>># How is it the Polish spies and the other eyewitnesses missed
>># these ovens?
>>
>>In this article and others, Giwer made a great deal of noise
>>about Rajzman’s testimony of “ovens” in Treblinka, claiming
>>(and correctly so) that these are not mentioned in other
>>testimonies. (Naturally, Giwer also made infantile and offensive
>>jokes about “BBQs”).
>>
>>I have just checked Rajzman’s testimony in the IMT (“Blue Series”,
>>Vol. VIII, p. 329, given on 27 Feb. 1946). He explicitly talks
>>about plans to increase the number of *gas chamber*, not *ovens*,
>>to twenty-five.
>>
>>It seems that the person who wrote the material for Nizkor did
>>make a mistake; fair is fair, and I thank Giwer for pointing
>>this mistake out, although it was not his intention.
>>
>>The bottom line, anyway, is that the mistake was not made by
>>Treblinka witness Rajzman.

> It would appear to have been a pretty bad botch by John and Ann Tusa,
>the authors of the book from which the quotation was taken. (It was _not_
>written specifically for Nizkor.) The file has been revised to carry a
>notation about the error, quoting the testimony from the Aristarchus IMT
>CD-ROM, and Mr. Giwer has been credited for spotting it.

Keep looking. You folks will thank me some day. Of course the
sanitizing of the files doesn’t really look all that good in hindsight.
Very like the elimination of the following from current repetition.

Maybe some day you will get around to sanitizing the rest of the
nonsense such as

Besides such witnesses, the Russians could produce documents of
suffering too – documents on tortures, beatings, castrations,
injections with poison, infections with cancer, typhus, malaria.

Even with the correction the evidence of infections with cancer make it
just one more invented horror story.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:56 PDT 1996
Article: 44492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Monty Python strikes again
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:47:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 7:49:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

“He’s a Nazi! A Nazi!”

“And how do you know he is a Nazi?”

“He gassed me and burned me up.”

Quizzical look.

“I got better.”

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:56 PDT 1996
Article: 44497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:07:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 9:09:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:54:00 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>> Here I keep seeing it said this guy Giwer is a troll and then he
>>unleashes a cornucopia, a rapid fire, a whole volley, a flood, a
>>hurricane, a 100 mega-ton series of articles that just about washes up
>>the Holocaust story.

>I am afraid that if you believe Mr. Giwer to be an intelligent
>contributor to this newsgroup, it will only contribute further to your
>reputation as something of a dim bulb.

That does appear to be the only kind of response you people have left
any longer. To hell with the message, lets get the messenger. After
all, the message is not refutable.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this …
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:18:10 GMT

Amazing what some of the heroes of the holohuggers will say when under
oath.

1/24/85
Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom,
states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were gassed at
Auschwitz, in spite of the fact
that the entire number of Jews deported from France were only
75,721. Vrba claims he
arrived at his count “scientifically” by having listened to the
language spoken by the inmates
at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The author of “I
Cannot Forgive” next
confessed that his book was “an artistic picture … not a document
for a court,” in spite of
the fact that Vrba’s testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee
Board and the Auschwitz
Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his written and
pictorial descriptions of
Auschwitz crematoria were a result of guessing, based on “what I
heard it might look like.”
Oops!

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:57 PDT 1996
Article: 44500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:55:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:57:14 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44500 alt.censorship:85802

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>> True, Ernest Zundel have ask once to banned Schindler’s
>>>> list because it was hate propaganda against the Germans. I agree with
>>>> him: it is. But I don’t believe this was a good idea, I can’t deny
>>>> to someone else what he deny to me.
>>>Giwer?

>>>Among others?

>>>Unless I’m mistaken, Giwer is still posting dozens of messages a day (at
>>>least it seems like that’s how many I’m having to kill). His switching
>>>providers had nothing to do with anyone at Nizkor.

>> Several HOLOHUGGERS posted in this conference that they had
>>called and emailed to complain to Combase about what I was
>>posting and how much I was posting. There were multiple calls and emails
>>on the subject. It was so much that two people who were fielding the mail
>>and phone decided that it was too much and I was told to find another
>>provider SOLELY because of that.

>That of course is a complete crock. The Giwer-troll knows very well why he
>was booted from his former provider and it was *his* behaviour that was the
>cause.

And it also was a cause to harrass my family as holohugging scum revel
in.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:58 PDT 1996
Article: 44501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:57:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:59:01 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44501 alt.censorship:85803

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Danny) said:

>>> And there is still a holohugger who calls me a couple times a
>>>week to do his pig imitation. That is the level of holohuggers.

>> Which snort or grunt, exactly, gives away that he endorses the reality
>> of the Holocaust?

>Perhaps he goes “snort-vey? 🙂

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 10:59:59 PDT 1996
Article: 44503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:58:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:59:30 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>Let me tell you a secret, Moron. You scum are never going to win any
>>>debate. Want to know why? It’s so damned simple that maybe even you can
>>>understand it. (1) You are wrong. The Holocaust did happen. (2) The
>likes
>>>of you couldn’t convince a bitch in heat to get laid. You are the dregs
>>>left behind when Danny-boy Gannon, Craven Raven and the other losers ran
>>>away–ran away from the free and open debate they claim to want. Subs
>like
>>>you and the Giwer-troll are the replacements. See–you guys are the
>>>second-rate losers. You are the runnerup losers.

>> As we all know, the SWC definition of the purely Jewish holocaust has
>>nothing whatsoever to do with gassing. You are attempting to piss up a
>>rope and getting a mouthful.

>Is it just me. or is this yet another Giwer-troll post that is removed from
>anything remotely resembling reality?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 11:00:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Degesh 0
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:29:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 5:30:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># The messages subjects Degesh 1 and 2 comprise a diagram of
># the standard 10 cubic meter Degesh delousing chamber. This is
># the one they advertised had deloused the possession of 25
># million people.

>So? I mean, did someone claim these delousing chambers did
>not exist?

You did. Then I told you that I would get you a picture. You now have
that and a digram. What are you trying to redact now?

># Not surprisingly they also manufactured mobile delousing chambers
># on the backs of trucks that could go where people needed them. I
># am still looking for a picture of one of those.

># I suspect of course they will come very close to the “eyewitness”
># descriptions of the “vergasnungwagans.”

>Not only eyewitnesses, but also rather detailed documents
>written during the war.

>Moreover, I hope you’re not going to claim the Nazis deloused
>clothes with engine exhaust?

I hope you are not going to claim they used oily exhaust that even Green
called absurd.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 11:00:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.cableol.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:22:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 3:24:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>> I am sure that anyone who cares to look through the search services can
>>> find one or more posts by Mr. McVay on this subject wherein he makes
>>> clear and gleeful reference to his pleasure at the idea of Zundel being
>>> deported. One of them may still be in the current postings. Sorry,
>>> don’t recall the thread.

>>Ken McVay, of course, can speak for himself.

>Yes, I can. An agency of the Canadian government has stated,
>without reservation, that one Ernst Zundel is a threat to the
>security of Canada.

Rwanda is a threat to the security of Canada.

The only thing I can see he is a threat to is the censorship happy
faction in Canada.

But perhaps you could explain.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 11:00:01 PDT 1996
Article: 44536 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.cableol.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: happens all the time
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:47:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 2:49:35 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

UNKNOWING VICTIM. Eva Langto, a San Francisco housewife, went to the
Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. recently, and, as all visitors,
was handed a folded card with the name and birthday of a holocaust
victim. When Mrs. Langton opened her card, she was astonished to read:
“Eva Heyman, February 13.” Mrs. Langton was born Eva Heyman on February
13 in Berlin

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 11:00:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44555 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:06:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 239
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 7:08:23 PM CDT 1996
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Nele Abels wrote:

>[Giwer wrote]
>> I presume this is out of the way.

>I appreciate that in your reply on my critique you made more use
>of supporting material and own text than you do normally, Mr. Giwer.
>But I am afraid you won’t get off the hook that easy, since you
>made some grave mistakes in your coice of historical methods:

Try to get this through your head. I have chosen to use the editorial
style. That has its own rules. One of the rules is an 800 words
maximum. Do you understand that? These are intended to be opinion
pieces. Got it?

>[I wrote, quoting Giwer]

>>>> A fascist is a Marxist who has learned that it is not necessary
>>>> to actually have public ownership of business as long as they
>>>> have complete control of business.

>>> Whoa! Finally a condensed definition of fascism. But, wait a moment, what
>>> about fascist nationalism vs. Marxist internationalism, what about the
>>> fascist concept of superior races? Mmmh…But let’s read on.

>[Giwer answered]
>> The superior race gimmick was an idea of Nazism. It was not part of
>> Fascism. The closest Mussolini got to it was waxing eloquent on the
>> glories of the Roman Empire. And besides, do you really think the Roman
>> nose would pass Aryan muster?
>
>What do we see here? Giwer is obviously trying to disprove my
>criticism on his weak definition of fascism.

I am not disproving anything. I am pointing out that you are flat out
wrong in attaching racial superiority as a characteristic of fascism.

He uses a two-fold
>tactic which is somewhat clever, but nethertheless transparent.
>First,

First, I simply point out that you are flat out wrong.

he simply neglects the nationalism/internationalism problem
>I pointed out. The question of “nation” is the central concept of
>fascism and one of the most important points in Marxism. While in
>fascism the nation is the unifying factor that leads to the
>developement of the state as a means of competing against other
>nations in a socio-darwinist enviroment, Marxism leads to the
>final dissolution of nations, because the concept of nation and
>state is only a means of the capitalist supression of the proletariat.
>”Proletarians of all nations unite.” Fascism and Marxism can by no
>means be harmonized here.

This has nothing to do with your claim of racial superiority.

No implementation of marxism by any country has ever worked towards
the dissolution of the state. The reason is clear, it requires the
force of the state to make people behave in the manner required to make
marxism work.

On those grounds the only consistent claim is that there has never been
a marxist nation.

Further it is only a fantasy that marxism leads to the dissolution of
the state.

>** “Revisionist” method No. 1: If you cannot disprove a central point
>** of your critics, be veeeery quiet and broadly elaborate on less
>** important points. Under no circumstances admit that you are wrong.
>
>The second tactic Giwer applies here is to reduce the term “fascism”
>to “Italian fascim”. In his essay “Socialism is Fascism” he does not
>draw this difference. Hitler and Mussolini are always seen in parallel,
>they do not once appear as single persons, but always as a pair.

Excuse but it appears you are throwing a common misperception at me as a
basis for claiming I said something incorrect. If you don’t want to
make the distinction, fine, write your own article. I prefer to
continue to observe the distinction that exists.

(Paragr.
>2, Paragr. 19, Para. 4). Apart from that, after his reply quoted above,
>Giwer himself comes back to the more general understanding of “fascism”.
>In order to save his claim that all fascists are Marxists, the point of
>his essay, he quotes extensively Hitler, an argumentation that inevitably
>leads to the assumption that he considers him also a fascist.

As you brought Nazism into the discussion, I responded to what you
wrote. I also provided Mussolini’s definition of Fascism and recounted
what he had told others about choosing the name.

>He juggles with the term that way to disprove my criticism that he
>neglected the racist aspects of fascism.

You have already admitted you are using a popular misconception about
nazism and fascism being the same. Now you repeat the remark that
fascism had racist aspects when you well know (you must know) that it
was only associated with Nazism. And as you note for the title I chose,
I was addressing fascism only.

If you are unable to make the distinction then you need to write your
own article.

He does not explicitly mention
>it, but I could imagine that he is thinking of the subordinate role
>of anti-semitism in Italy prior to 1938. (After that came the “razzismo”)
>Of course anti-semitism is always racism, but racism may take other forms
>than anti-semitism. Thus there have been fascist factions who were not
>anti-semitic in general like the early Italians and the Spanish. Others
>were
>strongly anti-semitic like the Germans and the British under Mosley. (Cp.
>_Enzyklopädie des Holocaust: Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der
>europäischen
>Juden_, vol. I, eds.: Eberhard Jäckel, Peter Longerich, Julius Schops,
>Berlin: Argon, 1993, p. 451) But that does not mean they were not racist
>because each and every fascist model based upon a pseudo-darwinist
>concept
>of competing nations who were always seen in a “biological” context. (Cp.
>ibid., p. 446f)

As you know antisemitism was common in all of Europe. As you further
know racial superiority was common in all of Europe. You also know it
was carried to an extreme in Germany and Austria.

It is unclear what point you are trying to make.

>Thus Giwer tried vainly to disprove my criticism by two reductions of
>terms he used first in a different meaning: 1. “fascism” to “Italian
>fascism”. 2. “racism” to “anti-semitism”.

Since I was so kind as to provide a relevent quote from Hitler regarding
Marx, would you be so kind as to find a reference from Hitler using the
term fascism to describe his economic system?

Until you do it will continue to appear you are simply defending a
common misunderstanding.

>** “Revisionist” method no. 2: Do not stick to a specific meaning of a
>** historical term. Always adapt the meaning of the words you use to
>** the point you wish to make.

>Taking these two things into account I can only arrive at the conclusion
>that my criticism still stands. Giwers definition of fascism is
>insufficient.

You provide one in the article you write, post it here and we will go
over it. It is only 800 words. It shouldn’t take you more than an
hour.

>[Giwer wrote]
>> I was adressing the thing the two had in common, state control of the
>> economy.

>No, Giwer did not compare the two ideologies, he identified them as being
>synonymous. The title of his essay is “Socialism _is_ Fascism”. He takes
>great lengths to prove that liberals are socialists/Marxists (these terms
>are synonymous for Giwer, cp. para. 8). Thus we arrive at Liberalism =
>Socialism = Marxism = Fascism and at the inane claim that the British
>Labour
>party is a fascist party. (para. 15).

If you can not deal with political commentary, don’t get into it.

>[Giwer wrote]
>> In some other article (maybe in that one) you will also find the observation
>> that the antagonism between the Nazis and the Bolsheviks was simply
>> another example of the warring brands of Marxism. It was hardly any
>> different from the Leninist-Trotskyite division.

>First, Giwer cannot assume in earnest that his quoting himself will under
>any circumstances support his arguments, especially when he isn’t even
>now
>able to give precise annotations 🙂 Apart from that hilarious attempt,
>the claim that the fight of ultra-rights against ultra-lefts is identical
>to the fights of the post-revolutionary power factions of the communists
>is
>utterly ridiculous. It falls already apart at the point that Leninists
>and
>Trotskytes belonged to the same ideology and considered themselves both
>being communists, whereas communists (it is only possible to speak of
>”bolsheviks” in Russia, not in Germany) considered themselves worlds
>apart.
>Also, Trotskytes and Leninists root from a common origin, while Nazis
>and Communists developed completely independently.

The only economic system difference between Communism and Nazism was the
illusion of property ownership without control over that property.

But perhaps you could define “ultra right” and “ultra left” in a manner
that would show a functional difference between these two single party
dictatorships which had absolute control of the economies of their
countries.

I don’t really see any save for the proclaimed intentions without
evidence of effort of one.

>** “Revisionist” rule no. 3: Don’t give too much attention to
>unneccessary
>** details like using historical terms precisely. Play the historian but
>** under no circumstances follow the rules of the trade.

Historian? It is a political opinion piece for god’s sake.

This is the link.

This is a world of opinions, my opinions!

This is what you read when you get there.

None of my opinions are humble.

The only opinions worth having

Do you understand now?

>[Giwer wrote]
>> Proof is not expected in the op-ed format. It is much too short for that.

>I agree that a research paper has to be written in a different style than
>a journalistic article.

It is not journalistic. It is an opinion piece.

But with “proof” I do not necessarily mean
>footnotes.
>If Giwer questions established commonplaces of historiography, people
>could
>expect somewhat more than simple claims without any explanation. Good
>research
>makes out good journalism and this is the reason why Giwer’s essays never
>raise above the level of cheap scandal sheets.

Obviously you have been spinning your wheels under a completely
inocrrect understanding of what you were reading. This is an
interesting discussion and all but would you like to just drop or to
start over?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 11:00:03 PDT 1996
Article: 44558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:27:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 3:29:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard J. Green) said:

>>>
>>> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>>>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>>>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>>>standards.

>>Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course Pressac
>>knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence that
>>Pressac doesn’t know what crystals are, we can discuss it.

>>BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It’s sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer from
>>a parody of Mr. Giwer.

>It could be either, since the Giwer-troll has been suspected of forging
>Marduk posts in the past.

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 13:02:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44584 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists…
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:27:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 100
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18 5:29:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>
>[email protected] (Les Griswold) writes:
>
># Chuckles has yet to clarify for me: HE claims that there WERE
># extermination facilities in Germany, but Simon Wiesenthal claims
># there WEREN’T. So who’s right?
>
>The apparent contradiction you point to does not exist. It is
>true, on one hand, that the camps in the “Old Reich” (Germany
>proper) were not extermination camps in the sense of Treblinka,
>Auschwitz-Birkenau, etc. This is why they are usually called
>”concentration camps”. However, a very large number of people
>were murdered in them (although, it is true, less than in the
>massive extermination camps the SS built in Poland).
>
>Here are some photographs taken in Belsen camp (which was in
>Germany proper).
>
>All the following photos are in
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/
>
>They are scanned from “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R. Phillips,
>William Hodge and Company, 1949.
>
>Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
>Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.

And for those interested, here is how it came about.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Nazis
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:39:51 GMT

Working together with both Commandant Kramer and chief inmate
representative Kuestermeier,
Colonel Hanns Schmidt responded by arranging for the local volunteer
fire department to provide
water. He also saw to it that food supplies were brought to the camp
>from abandoned rail cars.
Schmidt later recalled that Kramer “did not at all impress one as a
criminal type. He acted like an
upright and rather honorable man. Neither did he strike me as someone
with a guilty conscience.
He worked with great dedication to improve conditions in the camp. For
example, he rounded up
horse drawn vehicles to bring food to the camp from rail cars that had
been shot up.” (note 17)

“I was swamped,” Kramer later explained to incredulous British military
interrogators: (note 18)

The camp was not really inefficient before you [British and
American forces] crossed
the Rhine. There was running water, regular meals of a kind — I
had to accept what
food I was given for the camp and distribute it the best way I
could. But then they
suddenly began to send me trainloads of new prisoners from all over
Germany. It was
impossible to cope with them. I appealed for more staff, more food.
I was told that this
was impossible. I had to carry on with what I had.

Then as a last straw the Allies bombed the electric plant that
pumped our water.
Loads of food were unable to reach the camp because of the Allied
fighters. Then
things really got out of hand. During the last six weeks I have
been helpless. I did not
even have sufficient staff to bury the dead, let alone segregate
the sick … I tried to get
medicines and food for the prisoners and I failed. I was swamped. I
may have been
hated, but I was doing my duty.

Kramer’s clear conscience is also suggested by the fact that he made no
effort to save his life by
fleeing, but instead calmly awaited the approaching British forces,
naively confident of decent
treatment. “When Belsen Camp was eventually taken over by the Allies,”
he later stated, “I was
quite satisfied that I had done all I possibly could under the
circumstances to remedy the
conditions in the camp.” (note 19)

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 14:00:08 PDT 1996
Article: 44612 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler and Marxism
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:43:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:44:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

“Duncan Coons” <[email protected]> wrote:

>In a recent post, Matt Giwer wrote: “There is no question that both
>Mussolini and Hitler considered
>themselves practical Marxists. There exist sufficient quotations from
>their own words and writings to support that contention.” The claim
>prompted some amusement from this group’s resident leftists.

>Well, I don’t know about Mussolini, though he was a former socialist, but
>in a 1941 speech Hitler opined: “basically National Socialism and Marxism
>are the same.”

>The line is quoted in Friedrich Hayek’s “Road to Serfdom,” and the context
>is worth producing: “Liberalism … has the distinction of being the
>doctrine most hated by Hitler. It should be added that this hatred had
>little occasion to show itself in practice merely because, by the time
>Hitler came to power, liberalism was to all intents and purposes dead in
>Germany” (30). Hayek, of course, uses “liberalism” in its old, uncorrupted
>sense, viz free markets, free speech, and limited government–exactly the
>same principles that today’s crop of liberal-socialists, with their
>regulations and hate laws, are busily subverting.

Thank you.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 14:00:10 PDT 1996
Article: 44620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:00:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 11:01:58 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Jun 96 00:06:07 GMT, Alexander Baron
> wrote:

>>In article [email protected] “Daniel Keren” writes:
>>> The nazi-boys are claiming these testimonies were given
>>> about Belsen, but this is untrue.
>>>
>>> Giwer doesn’t give any sources, though, so it’s impossible to
>>> check this.
>>
>>You’re wrong again Dan. He gives History of World War II which checks out.
>>I recently looked up the Moshe Peer claim in the Montreal Gazette, that checks out.
>>as does the claim from the Rothchild book. Much other rubbish was given at and
>>about Belsen, but you know that already, don’t you?

>I went one better when Orest Slepokura posted the sad tale of Moshe
>Peer; I called Karen Seidman of the Gazette who actually wrote the
>piece. There is no doubt that Peer claimed in a speech to a Jewish
>gathering in Montreal to have been saved six times from the
>non-existent Belsen gas chamber. Seidman reported to me that several
>people who had heard the speech called after the article was published
>to object that Peer could not be telling the truth.

>Whether Peer is a liar or just a very crazy old man, I leave to the
>speculations of others. I do not regard a single example of a crazy
>old man or any collection of liars or crazy old men to be an adequate
>basis for denying the historicity of the Holocaust. In any event which
>occurred at thousands of locations, involved millions of people, and
>whcih was spread across several years, cases such as Peer’s are bound
>to happen. Anyone who thinks that collecting such instances while
>ignoring other kinds of evidence, has no conception of how history is
>done.

When ever crazier stories were told by young men (Wiesel almost gassed
in every camp he toured for example, geysers of blood for example) there
is no salvation in trying to excuse it because of crazy, an ad hominen
attack with a fact not in evidence in this case.

You have introduced a different approach though, trying to excuse the
nonsense of the tellers with age. Where were you when Demjanjuk was
identified?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 14:00:11 PDT 1996
Article: 44621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:04:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] said:

>Nothing. In response to Mr. Morris’ cogent and revealing article, the
>Giwer-troll said nothing at all.

>A brief sampling of the Giwer-troll lies.