Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p3

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43567 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XII
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:39:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
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Why the weekly spamming of the same material?

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
>[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
>————————————————————
>As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
>arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries… The people were
>told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
>disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
>to be registered…

>When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
>then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
>gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked “to the baths”. The gas
>vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
>meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
>floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
>which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
>pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
>back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
>van…

>The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
>away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
>exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
>exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
>driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
>early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
>incinerated… I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
>there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
>had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing…

>I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
>anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
>influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
>carried out the orders I had been given.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43568 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:03:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Every time Matt Giwer is caught lying, he claims that this is because
>he was confused due to the lack of a certain URL.

>Can someone explain to the 163 IQ man that he cannot blame others
>for his incredible stupidity and ignorance?

>As for the Rascher letter about the Dachau gas chamber, I a
>willing to post a jpeg of it, if there’s interest.

Post it and the translation.

After your complete fabrication about Polish spies and oily smoke which
even Green says is absurd I can understand your frustration.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43571 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:27:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> And? This is about steaming. Even though Green calls it an absurd
>>idea, Keren is trying to claim that it was confusion by Polish spies who
>>could not get close enough to see what was happening and therefore
>>confused oil vapor with steam.

>Troll Alert!: I have made no comment regarding Diesel exhaust and steam
>whatsoever. If Giwer cannot document such a claim, one should consider
>that he is not being completely forthright.

I have never wasted my time documenting your lies. They are too
plentiful for the effort.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43577 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos deny the story
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:03:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> The caption under the photograph in question here states the
>liberation of Auschwitz took place on Janurary 27, 1945. As I reported
>in the lead article, another date is Janurary 18, 1945, as given in
>”Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp”.
> The caption also says “The photograph indicates that the gas
>chambers have been or are being destroyed and that the evacuation of
>the complex had begun”.
> Here in the highly respected “Scientific American” we have the
>copy telling us white is black or vice versa. The photos show
>everything intact as to Cremas II, III and V.
> It is incredible that a publication like the Scientific American
>should engage in showing a photograph that clearly shows one thing and
>then alleges that it shows something else.
> It seems everything that gets mixed up with supporting the
>Holocuast story ends up stupid, even Scientific American.

You appear to be under a misapprehension. About eight years ago SA
almost went belly up for lack of readership. In response the editors
started dumbing it down and pandering.

A typical example of this is that they joined in on the ignorant
condemnation of The Bell Curve with an editor writing an article
appeared authoritative but in fact he was only a writer without
scientific credentials. It became one of the most often cited “proofs”
that TBC was racist.

SA has not been a reliable source of information for years now. But it
is now firmly in the Discover and Omni category of pop science.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:15 PDT 1996
Article: 43580 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:27:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:16:01 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>[full text of the Degesch manual deleted. But not to worry: Mr. Giwer
>will certainly post it many more times]

No, I will add just the relvent parts this time.

Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War
Crimes

>>II. METHOD OF USING PRUSSIC ACID
>>
>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.

Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague.

>Alright. You posted this as a true truth. Now what were you were
>saying about Zyklon-B using only wood chips as a carrier? About silica
>gel (Erco) never being blue? About how none of this was in the Degesch
>manual?

This is what the Degesh pub has to say about it.

Composition

In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
stabilized and absorbed in a
porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared
>from wood pulp. Snippets
generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off
the gas more rapidly. Upon
request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
collected at the end of
the fumigation.

>Please tell us how you manage to hold these contradictory claims to be
>true truths. Please explain how the Holy Church of Revisionism
>resolves these contradictions.

You will have to take this up with other than myself. The manufacturere
does not mention you blue things.

What we really need to do at this point is to dig up that famous story
where someone is driving around passing out sample of these blue
crystals from a jar he has with him.

>Oh right, I forgot: “I never made any such claim.”

Quite correct, you were confused. All the eyewitnesses might have seen
wood pulp if they has started from the right document.

>Har!

I regret you have difficulty in keeping this straight.

Do you really need to see the Degesh pub again? BTW: I did not say
that it was complete. It does appear the health institute document is
complete.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43584 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: missing files
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:18:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># Retired at 46, presently 50. Please keep your facts straight.

>And why, pray tell, did the 163 IQ man retire at 46??

>He keeps saying he’s a super-genius, that he’s far smarter than
>everybody on this group, that he knows everything there’s to know
>about everything under the sun.

>So, why did Matt Giwer, this gift to humanity, this super-genius,
>retire at such an early age? Wasn’t there *somebody* out there
>who could use his services?

Choice.

Or do you look forward to working when you do not have to work?

I consider you very foolish if you do.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43585 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Gerstein Confession
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:44:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> But of course, Gerstein is highly moral and honest. So obviously 25
>>million were gassed. That is in all six versions of his confession.

>So? Does “highly moral and honest” (I don’t see anyone exactly vouching
>for him; my impression from what little I have read is that the quoted
>words are a pretty accurate description) imply “infallible”? Do you
>think Gerstein personally hand-counted the victims? This seems bullshit
>of the general category that since testimony concerning the Holocaust
>includes (now) obvious errors, just as obviously resulting from imperfect
>knowledge and erroneous (not dishonest) interpretations, such testimony
>is “phony”. Who do you think is going to fall for such ludicrous
>reasoning?

25 million? A factor of ten is “erronius”? Get over it. He
“confessed” to what the French wanted him to say.

You have to learn that what are NOW known as obvious “errors” should
have been common knowledge at the time. Things do not work the way you
imagine. The closer one is to events the more one knows about the
events, not less. Or are you stating the people today know more about
WW II than those who lived through it?

>> That is holohuggers never provide his complete “confession” but only 2nd
>>and 3rd (or greater) hand references to it. That is why the authors
>>never quote the ridiculous parts of it.

>Actually, I find few references to Gerstein, and none at all citing his
>own testimony as authority, in the Holocaust literature I’ve accumulated
>over the past few years. He’s certainly an interesting figure, but
>ultimately a minor and ineffective one

Except that most of what is supposed to be known about this
extermination program comes from him.

–the considerably less saintly
>Oskar Schindler comes to mind as one who actually accomplished a lot
>more, and who ever heard of Schindler outside survivor circles before
>Kenneally’s book was published? Where do you see Gerstein cited as an
>authority?

His widow heard of him and she has presented a distinctly different
opinion of someone you would call saintly.

>It’s funny that while revisionist scum whine and weep about how Germans
>are being maligned, they save some of their most vicious insults for
>those who genuinely did try to do good like Gerstein and Schindler.

I have not said one word about Germans being maligned. But you know
that. And you also know Schindler’s widow’s opinion of him.

>Again, Matt: You refer to “holohuggers” who cite Gerstein’s “confessions”
>as an authority without quoting them. To whom, specifically, are you
>referring here? What Holocaust historians have cited Gerstein’s
>*testimony* (confessions, if you will) as authoritative, as opposed to
>simply noting Gerstein as one German who attempted to inform the world
>about the Holocaust?

Hilberg for one but he said he simply did not report the ridiculous
parts of it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43592 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:41:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
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Why the weekly spamming of the same material?

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first
>gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW’s were murdered
>[Quoted in “Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison Gas”, edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
>——————————————————————-
>I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
>Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking
>for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place,
>where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can
>still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
>window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see
>that the people were dead. The van was opened. Some bodies fell
>out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
>chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which
>is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43594 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohugger needed
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:28:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Nele Abels wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Would one of you holohuggers explain to Erik Marksberry that there were
>> not 5.2M bodies found and that no one expects to find 5.2M bodies?

>Would one of you “revisionists” explain to me why this question should be
>of any relevance?

I would have thought you folks would want to keep the orthodox story
straight. If I had made the claim I would certainly have been
“corrected” on the matter. Why is it you folks don’t care when a true
believer believes something untrue?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43600 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:18:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
>> as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
>> “eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
>> misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
>> gone, not when fresh.

>”cobaltus chloride – CoCl2, CoCl2*6H20 A compound whose anyhydrous form
>consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
>form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8C; both forms are used as
>an absorbant for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
>chloride.” (_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_, p.95.)

>The Giwer-Troll’s assumption is, of course, that cobalt chloride was added
>to Zyklon B. Was it? What evidence indicates that is was? If it was, what
>would its purpose be? A desicant? A catalyst? It is interesting to note
>that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed to (CO3)2- and NH3. Would adding
>cobalt chloride to Zyklon B retard hydrolysis and increase the shelf like
>of Zyklon B?

>Or is there another explination that would account for the blue color?

As any honest chemist will state, the coloration is only due to the
additive. Now why not save the reputation of your employer and admit
you are a janitor?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43615 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am asking for a number, stupid
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:26:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>You have the numbers
>>>you asked for above. Rather than discuss what you asked for this is
>>>the result of Mr. Green’s work. I tend to wonder why he bothers. I
>>>guess he likes to make you look like a jerk and you always seem to
>>>oblige him and many others. I weould think you would soon weary of
>>>this. Is it that you can’t tell what is happening here? Maybe it is
>>>that **you don’t really care what is happening here.**

>> Bull. Those are not what I asked for.

>But they never are! Nothing anyone provides you with is the right
>thing. Why should we bother? You have shown yourself to not be worth
>the effort.

Obvoiously there is no such number.

>> To repeat for small minds, I want a single number that is the number of
>>those Jews summarily executed either in situ or shipped to camps to be
>>immediately executed solely because they were Jews.

>I shouldn’t reply further after the moronic “small minds” comment, but
>you need to tell people what sources YOU will accept. There are
>various reports from the SS that break down the numbers and the
>shootings. They are not in one report alone. As usual they have to be
>combined and added up. You have been given numbers that include the
>numbers from various reports. Frankly, I don’t think you are worth the
>time of the folks here.

That would not include the magic number from the camps.

>> Those do not purport in any manner to be the single requested number nor
>>is there any way to derive it from them.

>Then do the work yourself by compiling all the reports.

You mean to tell me no one has done that in 50 years?

I find that difficult to believe. It is very strange to find the number
has never been compiled.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:20 PDT 1996
Article: 43618 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Gerstein Confession
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:11:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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25 million gassed.

There is no decimal point missing, twenty five million gassed.

But of course, Gerstein is highly moral and honest. So obviously 25
million were gassed. That is in all six versions of his confession.

That is holohuggers never provide his complete “confession” but only 2nd
and 3rd (or greater) hand references to it. That is why the authors
never quote the ridiculous parts of it.

And of course the 25 million has a known source. Anyone want to guess
it?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43619 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:15:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 2:16:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Well, Giwer, who *was* cited as the source of this description?

>It is inaccurate, indeed, as the engine’s exhaust is confused
>for steam. All I can do is repeat what I said before: this is
>a mistake people can make, more so when the exhaust is white,
>which may well have been the case, as noted here.

More bullshit. You know exactly what you were claiming.

>Even if someone got close enough to see more detaile, he could
>have made this error; seeing the gas chamber door open, a white
>cloud coming out – he could have erred and concluded that steam
>was used. It would still be interesting, nontheless, to know
>if this is a single testimony, or a compilation of a few
>testimonies.

But we all know there is a first hand description of the boiler and the
piping and the pushbuttons to control it so clearly there was either
steaming or lies. Which would you like it to be?

>I still think that any reasonable person would agree that
>the testimonies of the SS-men, who built and ran the camp, and
>the sonderkommando, who spent a lot of time in the area of
>the gas chambers, are more accurate.

That is what I have provided in the description of the boiler. Next
question.

>However, you have to use what you have. So, you will keep
>mentioning these erroneous testimonies, because you have nothing
>better. But, remember, you are really no different from
>someone who claims Dresden was never bombed, because there
>exist erroneous testimonies about the bombing. But, once more:
>this is what you can do.

Stick to your computers, you are out of your depth in this discussion.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:16:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 451
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 3:17:17 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with
>>> >>the long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.
>>>
>>> >[snip]
>>>
>>> >It has been discussed here before. The pub is for unpowered natural
>>> >ventilation in a normal living space, with all the nooks and crannies.
>>> >Sorry, it is not the same. Notice that they say to open the windows, not
>>> >switch on the ventilation system.
>>>
>>> How about the color not being blue?
>>
>>The DEGESCH document titled “Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid
>>(Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)” [NI-9912] states:
>>
>>”ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.”
>>(_Technique_, p.18; and
>>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html)

> What? You mean a revisionists page carries the Degesch manual and
>Nizkor doesn’t? Interesting.

Not quite. That one contains the following credit line.

Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague.

Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the
Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)

Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War
Crimes

I. PROPERTIES OF PRUSSIC ACID (HYDROCYANIC ACID)

Prussic acid is a gas which is generated by evaporation

Boiling point: 25 degrees Centigrade
Freezing point: -15 degrees Centigrade
Specific gravity: 0-69
Steam density: 0-97 (Air: 1-0)
The liquid evaporates easily.
Liquid: transparent, colourless.
Smell: peculiar, repulsively sweet.
Extradordinarily great penetrative powers.
Prussic acid is soluble in water.

Danger of explosion: 75g. prussic acid 1 cbm air. (Normal application
approx. 8-10 g. per
cbm, therefore not explosive). Prussic acid may not be brought into
contact with an open flame,
glowing wires, etc., because then it burns up slowly and loses all its
effectiveness (carbonic acid,
water, and nitrogen are formed).

Toxic effect on warm-blooded animals: Since prussic acid has practically
no indicative irritant
effect it is highly toxic and very dangerous. Prussic acid is one of the
most powerful poisons.
1mg. per kg. of body weight is sufficient to kill a human being. Women
and children are generally
more susceptible than men. Very small amounts of prussic acid do not
harm the human body,
even if breathed continuously. Birds and fishes are particularly
susceptible to prussic acid.

Toxic effect on insects: The effects of prussic acid on insects do not
depend on the
temperature to the same extent as that of other gases, that is, it is
also effective in low
temperatures (even at 5 degrees Centigrade). The eggs of many insects,
particularly bugs and
lice, are more susceptible than the full-grown insects.

Toxic effects on plants: The degree of toxicity depends on the type of
vegetation on the plants.
Plants with thick leaves are less susceptible than those with thin ones.
Mildew and dry-rot are not
killed by prussic acid. Prussic acid does not destroy bacteria.

II. METHOD OF USING PRUSSIC ACID

ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre
discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess – Dia gravel) or small
blue cubes (Erco) are
used as carriers.

Apart from serving its purpose as indicator, this irritant also has the
advantage of stimulating the
respiration of insects. Prussic acid and the irritant are generated
through simple evaporation.
Zyklon will keep for 3 months. Use damaged cans first. The contents of a
can must all be used up
at once. Liquid prussic acid damages polish, laquer, paint, etc. Gaseous
prussic acid is
harmless. The toxicity of the prussic acid remains unchanged by the
addition of the irritant; the
danger connected with it is however considerably decreased.

Zykon can be rendered inoffensive by combustion.

III. POSSIBLE POISONING

1. Slight Poisoning: Dizziness, headache, vomiting, general feeling of
sickness, etc. All these
symptoms pass if one immediately gets out into the fresh air. Alcohol
reduces resistance to
prussic acid gassing, therefore do not drink alcohol before fumigation.
Prescribe: 1 tablet
Cardiazol or Veriazol in order to prevent heart disorders, if necessary
repeat after 1-3 hours.

2. Severe poisoning: The affected person will collapse suddenly and
faint. First aid: fresh air,
remove gas mask, loosen clothing, apply artificial respiration. Lobelin,
intermuscular 0-01 g. Do
not give camphor injections.

3. Poisoning through the skin: Symptoms as for 1. Treat the same way.

4. Stomach poisoning: Treat with Lobelin intermuscular 0-01 g., ferrous
sulphate, burnt
magnesia.

IV. PROTECTION AGAINST GAS

When fumigating with Zyklon use only special filters, e.g.: the filter
insert “J” (blue-brown) of the
Auergesellschaft Berlin or of the Draegerwerke, Luebeck. Should gas seep
through the mask,
leave the building immediately and change filters after also checking
the mask and its fit to see
whether they are tight. The filter insert is exhausted if gas enters
through the mask. If using filter
“J”, first move around in the open air for approx. 2 minutes so that a
certain amount of moisture
>from the breath may gather in the filter insert. Under no circumstances
should filters be changed
inside gas-filled rooms.

V. PERSONNEL

A disinfestation squad consisting of at least 2 members is employed for
each disinfestation
project. The fumigation chief is responsible for the fumigation. His
particular duties are
inspection, airing, release and safety measures. The fumigation chief is
to appoint a deputy in
case has has to leave. The orders of the fumigation chief are to be
followed without delay.

Untrained persons or persons who are trained but who do not yet hold a
certificate may not be
called upon to work on gassing operations, nor may they be taken into
gas-filled rooms. The
fumigation chief must also know where to contact his personnel. Every
person must at all times be
able to prove he has official authorization for the use of prussic acid
for extermination purposes.

VI. EQUIPMENT

Each member must at all times carry with him:

1. His own gas mask.
2. At least 2 special filter inserts against Zyklon prussic acid.
3. The leaflet First Aid for Prussic Acid Poisoning.
4. Work order.
5. Authorization certificate.
Each disinfestation squad must at all times carry:
1. At least 3 special inserts as extra stock.
2. 1 gas detector.
3. 1 instrument for injecting Lobelin.
4. Lobelin 0-01 g. ampules.
5. Cardiazol, Veriazol tablets.
6. 1 lever or pickhammer for opening cans of Zyklon.
7. Warning signs as per regulation.
8. Material for sealing.
9. Sheets of paper to serve as pads.
10. Flashlight.

All equipment to be kept clean and in good order at all times. Damage to
equipment is to be
repaired at once.

VII. PLANNING FUMIGATIONS

1. Can the fumigation be carried out at all?
(a) Type of building and situation.
(b) Condition of roof.
(c) Condition of windows.
(d) Presence of heating shafts, air shafts, breaks in the walls, etc.
2. Determine the kind of vermin to be exterminated.
3. Calculate the space. (Do not rely on drawings but take measurements
yourself. Take only
outside measurements, include walls).
4. Prepare personnel. (Remove domestic animals, plants, food and drink,
undevelped
photographic plates, and gas mask filters).
5. Find which openings will be particularly difficult to seal. (Air
shafts, drains, large opening which
have been boarded up, roofs).
6. Settle necessary safety measures. (Guarding, work detachment for
sealing).
7. Fix the date for the fumigation and the time for clearing the
building.
8. If necessary, arrange safety measures for the neighbourhood in good
time.
9. Notify authorities.

VIII. PREPARATION FOR FUMIGATION

1. Seal.
2. Open all doors, closets, drawers, etc.
3. Pull bedding apart.
4. Remove all liquids (remains of coffee, washing water, etc.).
5. Remove all food.
6. Remove all plants and domestic animals (aquaria, etc.).
7. Remove all undeveloped photographic plates and films.
8. Remove adhesive plaster, all medical supplies, whether open or in
paper bags (particularly
coal).
9. Remove all gas mask filters.
10. Prepare to check on results.
11. Clear out personnel.
12. Take over keys (every door key).

IX. THE STRENGTH OF THE GAS AND THE TIME REQUIRED FOR IT TO TAKE
EFFECT DEPENDS ON:

The type of vermin.
The temperature.
The amount of furniture in the rooms.
The imperviousness of the building.

For inside temperatures of more than 5 degrees Centigrade, it is
customary to use 8 g. prussic
acid per cbm.

Time needed to take effect: 16 hours, unless there are circumstances
such as a closed-in type of
building, which requires less time. If the weather is warm it is
possible to reduce this to a
minimum of 6 hours. The period is to be extended to at least 32 hours if
the temperature is below
5 degrees Centigrade.

The strength and time as above are to be applied in the case of :bugs,
lice, fleas, etc. with eggs,
larvae and chrysalises.

For clothers-moths: temperatures above 10 degrees Centigrade, 16 g. per
cbm and 24 hours to
take effect.

For Flour-moths: same as for bugs.

X. FUMIGATION OF A BUILDING

1. Check everybody has left the building.
2. Unpack boxes of Zyklon. Make the appropriate amount ready for each
floor.
3. Distribute the cans. One man to go into the building and receive the
cans which have been
brought up the work detachment and to distribute them. (Have them put
next to the pads).
4. Dismiss the work detachment.
5. Post the guard. Fumigation chief to instruct the guard.
6. Check that sealing and clearing have been completed.
7. Put on gas masks.
8. Open the cans and pour out the contents. The contents are to be
spread thinly so that the
Zyklon can evaporate quickly and the necessary density of gas can be
achieved as soon as
possible. This process is to start on the top floor, but the cellar is
dealt with before the ground
floor, should the cellar have no exit. Rooms that have been dealt with
should as far as possible not
be re-entered. This processing is to be done slowly and calmly. The
staircase particularly should
only be used slowly. The processing may only be interrupted in an
emergency.
9. The exit door to be locked, sealed (do not forget the keyhole) and
its key handed over to the
fumigation chief.
10. On the door fix a warning with the legend: Danger – Poison Gas.
Danger to Life, No
Admittance. This warning sign is to be in several languages if
necessary, and in any case it must
be marked with at least one death’s head, clearly visible.
11. Gas masks, apparatus for resuscitation and gas detectors are to be
kept available at all
times. Every member of the fumigation squad must know where these
objects are located.
12. At least 1 member of the fumigation squad must always remain near
the building which is
being fumigated. The guard must be notified of his position.

XI. AIRING

The airing is connected with the greatest danger for those participating
and others. Therefore, it
must be carried out particularly carefully and a gas mask should always
be worn. The airing
should take place according to the following principles: pure air should
always be within reach in
the shortest possible time and the gas should flow out to that side
where it cannot endanger
people who are not participating. Should the airing be difficult, one
trained man should remain in
front of the building in order to watch how the gas is blowing away.

1. Take care to see that no strangers remain in the vicinity of the
building.
2. Post the guards in such a way that they are not annoyed by the gas as
it blows out, but can still
watch the entrances to the building.
3. Put on a gas mask.
4. Enter the building. Close door, but do not lock it.
5. First open the windows on that side of the building where there is no
wind. Air floor by floor.
Start on the ground floor and after each floor take at least 10 minutes
rest.
6. The doors leading to the corridor, connecting doors between rooms and
windows must be
opened in each room. Should there be difficulty in opening any of the
windows they should only be
opened after most of the gas has blown away.
7. Partitions and other methods used to seal the room which cannot be
replaced quickly should
only be removed after most of the gas has blown away.
8. Care should be taken to see that the heating system and water pipes
do not freeze should
there be a frost or danger of it.
9. Rooms with valuable contents, such as clothing stores, etc. may be
locked again as soon as
the windows have been opened.
10. Windows and doors which have been opened should be fastened in such
a way that they
cannot slam.
11. Covers in chimneys may be removed after the provisional release of
the building.
12. The airing should continue for at least 20 hours.
13. The Guard should remain near the building during the whole of this
time.

XII. PROVISIONAL RELEASE

A fumigated room may be released provisionally as soon as the paper
strip of the gas detector is
of a lighter blue than the centre colour pattern, when the doors and
windows are open. Only work
connected with the airing and clearing up may be done in the rooms which
have been
provisionally released. Under no circumstances may anyone rest or sleep
in these rooms. The
doors and windows must be left open all the time.

XIII. CLEARING UP AFTER PROVISIONAL RELEASE

1. Remove remains of Zyklon from the fumigated rooms. They should
generally be sent back to
the factory in the same way as cans and boxes. Before boxes are sent
back from the fumigated
rooms the incription Poison must be removed from them. Damp, wet or
soiled remains as well as
damaged cans may not be sent back under any circumstances. They may be
thrown on a rubbish
or slag heap, but may never be emptied into drains.
2. Mattresses, straw palliasses, pillows upholstered furniture and
similar items must be shaken or
beaten for at least one hour in the open air (if rainy, at least 2 hours
in the hall) under the
supervision of the fumigation chief or his assistant.
3. If possible, the stuffing of straw palliasses should be changed. The
old stuffing may not,
however, be burnt, but may be reused after it has been aired for a
further period.
4. Should the chimneys be covered from above, these coverings must be
removed carefully since
other wise there is a danger that the fires in the stoves and hearths
will not have sufficient draught,
which may cause carbon-monoxide poisoning.
5. After the final release has been made, two copies of a fumigation
report are to be filled-in in
the prescribed manner. The following points in particular should be
shown:
(a) Volume of fumigated rooms.
(b) Amount of Zyklon used.
(c) Name of fumigation chief.
(d) Names of other personnel.
(e) Time required for gas to take effect.
(f) Time at which disinfested rooms were released.

XIV. FINAL RELEASE

1. Under no circumstances less than 21 hours after airing was started.
2. All items removed for beating are to be taken back into the room.
3. Doors and windows to be closed for one hour.
4. In rooms with heating facilities a temperature of at least 15 degrees
Centigrade must be
produced.
5. Gas detecting. The paper strip may not show a darker blue than the
lightest colour, even
between blankets and mattresses which have been place on top of each
other, or in rooms which
are not easily accessible and which it is difficult to air. Should this
not be the case, airing must be
continued and the check for gas repeated after a few hours.
6. The check for gas must be made in each room of buildings which are
again to be used as
sleeping accomodation as soon as possible. Under no circumstances may
anyone sleep in a
room which has been fumigated in the night following fumigation. The
windows must always
remain open during the first night that the room is used again.
7. The fumigation chief or his deputy may not leave the building until
the very last room has been
finally released.

Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague.

Back to Top of Page

CODOH can be reached at:
Post Office Box 3267
Visalia CA 93278

Email: [email protected]

Back to Resource File Index

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritsch was a fraud
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:11:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 2:12:59 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Hoess testififes to 3.5 million. Hoess testifies to Wolzec. Hoess
># testifies to anything his Soviet interogators want his to say.

>This is amazingly stupid, even for you. Hoess gives a (rather
>accurate) figure of 1.2 million dead in Auschwitz, in his memoirs.

Give me a URL to that one. That will be the fourth true and conflicting
account. Please do it. I am having fun with this one.

>Why would the Soviets want him to give a figure far lower than
>they have claimed? It doesn’t take an IQ of 163 to realize he
>wasn’t told what to write.

>Moreover, you completely failed to respond to the major point in
>my article: that, when people are locked in a large room, and
>Zyklon in thrown into a single location in it, than some of them
>will die a longer and more painful death than someone who is
>exposed at once to a high concentration of the gas. Hence the
>signs of torture described by the inmates who had to remove the
>corpses in the first gassing in Block 11.

>Do you agree with this observation?

What is there to disagree with? You have only posted your imagination
in this matter. But you know that.

Do not forget, there are now three distinctly different and
contradictory first gassing stories on record on this conference. Which
story are you talking about when you refer to the first gassing? You
will have to be specific. And remember that which ever you choose can
be contradicted by either of the other two.

Give it up. Your fantasy never happened.

># I can no tell Breitwieser from Fritsch for openers. How do you
># tell the difference?

>Breitwieser was let go by the Frankfurt court. He denied being involved
>in the gassing, and the court decided the evidence against him wasn’t
>strong enough.

But he is clearly the person who invented the use of Zyklon B. What is
your problem with that?

># Do you disagree with professional fumigators being called in?

>I am not sure what you mean. Breitwieser was employed in Auschwitz.

Employed? He was an officer according to the story.

>In general, it would make sense to consult with fumigators on using
>Zyklon for whatever purpose – including homicidal purposes – because
>they were familiar with it.

Excuse me, the story has it that the professionals did the job, not that
they were consulted. Do you not find something wrong with this story?
Are you really defending this idiocy?

How can anyone in their right mind claim that professionals were needed
to use Zyklon B when just anyone could read the directions and use it?
That is in all of the stories. Just what is it you are trying to prove
here?

Stick to applied math. Keep out of matters that are beyond you.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:23 PDT 1996
Article: 43631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: ab.general,can.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MORE SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR FAGGOTS!!
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:17:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 1:18:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ab.general:10268 can.general:80219 can.politics:52185 alt.revisionism:43631

[email protected] wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>The CHRC – COMMUNIST HOMO RIGHTS CANADA – have ruled that faggots are now
>>to get more special rights.

>Could you, in your infinite wisdom please tell me what they are. You
>see all us poor ignorant soals [sadistic grin] out here just couldn’t
>find any “special rights” As far as I know this bill was suspose to
>level the playing field by giveing all humans the SAME rights
>regardless of orentation…something which is WELL over do.

>>These ‘family benefits’ will be at the expense of all the senior
>>citizens, who will now have their legitimate benefits reduced, so that
>>the government can pay off all the faggot and lesbian couples.

>So what are the GAY and lesbians–undeserving. They are humans too
>and deserve benefits. If we eliminate benefits for them to increase
>benefits for others is what we are doing right? I’ll answer that if
>you don’t mind. If you were to eliminate even more people from the
>benefits, like for example eliminate everyone except blond blue eyed
>arion people (why does this sound familiar) The people receiveing
>benefits would receive alot more, but it certainly wouldn’t be
>ethical. Odds are that you do not fit this description, so how would
>you like your benefits cut ’cause of a trait you were born with.

This sounds a lot like giving liver transplants to alcoholics.

But in any event, no one deserves anything that anyone else has to pay
for under threat of force. That is theft and theft only.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:24 PDT 1996
Article: 43640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:01:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 12:02:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>> The only thing that was “unacceptable” from the original movie was the
>>> preview trailer for Part II where the Jews in Space were chasing Muslim
>>> ships with
>>>
>>> Torah
>>> Torah
>>> Torah
>>>
>>> on the screen.
>>>
>>> Some jokes even Mel Brooks is not permitted to make.
>>
>>Some jokes Mel Brook’s *didn’t* make. How, exactly, where you able to identify
>>those rather generic spacecraft as Muslim?
>>

>Obviously they were Nazi flying saucers from Antarctica…

Flying Mogen Davids actually. You should have seen it in the theater
… or were you too young?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:25 PDT 1996
Article: 43641 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein’s confession
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:25:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 3:26:47 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> Facts can only be revisionist if they are revising fancy.

>This gibberish is your response to why you keep posting badly formatted
>bullshit?

It appears the only problem you can find with what I am posting is the
formatting. Does that drive you up the wall for any particular reason?

>>>As to the matter at hand, I find Gerstein to be a highly interesting
>>>figure, and wonder why you think that his confession was “obviously
>>>phony.”

>> All six different ones in three languages of them or which particular
>>one are you referring to?

>Take your pick. I do not have any direct text of any confession by
>Gerstein at hand. My information is from secondary sources. What is
>your source? And why do you find any of Gerstein’s confessions
>”obviously phony”? Have you read any of them?

You mean you believe him when he swore that 25 (twenty five) million
people had been gassed? That is even better than Hoess managed to
confess to. Of course the is the Degesh ad copy that says the
possessions of 25 million people had been fumigated but I am certain
there is no connection whatsoever, aren’t you?

>>Do you think that this is the only reason a court might reject
>>>a written confession when the writer is no longer available to be
>>>questioned?

>> Perhaps the multiple different confessions had more to do with it.

>What is so incredible about the possibility that Gerstein may have
>written more than one account, and/or that some accounts may survive
>in typed, handwritten, or whatever form, in different languages? Is
>there something here that makes any of the accounts (which you call
>”confessions”–from what I know of Gerstein, this term is dubious)
>”obviously phony”? Have you read any of them? What is your source?

It is not of interest to you that the man was fluent in three languages
and a typist? Is not 25 million people gassed of interest to you? All
the camps needed was a sign “over xx million gassed” that they could
decrease every month.

>>(As I recall, Gerstein died under somewhat dubious “suicide”
>>>circumstances.)

>> And don’t forget, the body was lost. How does one lose a body?

>I could speculate on any number of ways, Matt, but unlike you, when
>I don’t know, I generally prefer not to guess. Does the disappearance
>of Gerstein’s body make his story “obviously phony”? How?

A lost body, nothing to support the suicide theory, no bruises or worse
to see. Consider Lee Harvey Oswald producing five different confessions
in three languages, committing suicide, and the body vanishing.

>>Revisionist scum frequently insult Gerstein’s memory,
>>>but I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that Gerstein wasn’t a
>>>highly moral person who was trying to bear witness from within a system
>>>that disgusted him.

>> Considering you imply you know the contents of Gerstein’s confession
>>upon what grounds would you hold he was a highly moral person?

>Mostly the account of his activity in the back of Rolf Hochhuth’s play
>THE DEPUTY.

A play. Thank you very much. That is like saying Schindler was a moral
person from the movie.

I have seen other accounts, including some sparse information
>on Nizkor. But since you brought up Gerstein, how about coming clean
>about whay you know? Have you read any of Gerstein’s confessions, in any
>language? What is your source? Why do you consider any of them “obviously
>phony”? Could you try answering the questions, without further bullshit?

>1) Why do you consider any or all of Kurt Gerstein’s confessions
> “obviously phony”?

>2) What is the source of your information about Kurt Gerstein?

>3) Have you read the text of any of what you list as his confessions,
> in original or translation? If so, where can I find these texts?

I will post as much as I can as soon as I find out more.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:25 PDT 1996
Article: 43650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:19:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected]com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> He is a pharamacist who never took a chemistry course in his life.

>So what?

That sort of thing seems to matter when it comes to Leuchter. Beyond
that it is difficult to imagine that being possible. Perhaps another
fraud? Or does it only matter when it is someone smashing icons?

>> Why is it that the things needed to support the fanciful stories are
>>never to be found?

>Who says this is the case other than yourself?

I am far from the only one. Anyone who takes an honest look will say
the same thing.

>> The only drawing of the wire mesh basket at Nizkor has nothing on it to
>>connect to any bolt holes. But you know that.

>Who says it has to?

How is it anchored to bolts in the floor if there is no place for the
bolts to attach to the basket? Perhaps you will say that you can
imagine a way but refuse to tell us about your imaginings.

>>>I don’t think they’ll approve the digging up of the site. What’s wrong
>>>with the testimony provided about the design and the description of
>>>Krema II on page 167 of _Anatomy_?

>> What is wrong with seeing if there is anything like what the story
>>describes?

>When the thing blown up there isn’t much left to rely on. So making
>assumptions about stuff no longer existing is more fanciful than it is
>history.

Nonsense. It is all right there just in pieces. All an explosion does
is break things. It does not make the pieces vanish. So in fact if
they were ever there, they are still there. All someone has to do is
find them and you folks have some physical evidence, perhaps the first.
But then you need to find a wire basket with anchoring points for the
bolts you talk about.

>>>What’s left of it, you mean. What’s wrong with the testimony provided
>>>about the design and the description of Krema II on page 167 of
>>>_Anatomy_?

>> What is wrong with seeing if it matches reality? Or does a tourist
>>attraction not want to risk the loss of revenues?

>Becaise there is no need. The plans and testimony are enough. So you
>tell me what is wrong with the testimonies of designers and
>eyewitnesses.

Your fancied bolts do not appear on any plans. There is no testimony to
support your fanciful bolts. Therefore it would help to find them and
the right basket.

>> It is difficult to imagine any other field in which tests to support
>>stories are unnecessary. The Shroud of Turin comes to mind.

>Send it back, it is off topic here.

It is an analogy to a similar touching faith in something that is not
what it was claimed to be. A similar arguement was used to try to stop
it from being tested. Everyone agreed that it was. And they also
agreed to keep quiet about the court finding regarding the artist who
created it. It is no more than a matter of faith.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43651 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:23:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 5:24:39 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>> >>
>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>> >>
>>
>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>> >:-)
>>
>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>pharmacist
>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>> course.
>>
>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.

>The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>innuendo.

Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
standards.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:27 PDT 1996
Article: 43654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!nntp.micrognosis.com!inquo!vyzynz!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 06:38:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>: ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.

>I believe that the only person who has posted recently to a.r that
>”12 million were killed in the camps” was Matt “Prince Myshkin” Giwer.

Then you believe your own lie, Sgt. Shultz. But then I am unaware of
anyone ever claiming you are anything but such a liar.

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>—–
>”Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.” — The French Knight

You are a disgrace to your university.

A disgrace to your profession.

A disgrace to your mother.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:27 PDT 1996
Article: 43664 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: American funding for the Nizkor Project
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:27:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77243 alt.revisionism:43664 soc.culture.jewish:56998 soc.culture.usa:85371

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

> “Supposedly a synagogue is collected tax free
> contributions for Nizkor even though Nizkor does not
> have tax exempt status. ”

>>This is the Troll who has to put his stamp on every thread no matter
>>what.

>But he’s our troll 🙂

>Let him explain this one:

>In the United States, checks in support of the work of The
>Nizkor Project should be made payable to:
>
>SAN ANTONIO AREA FOUNDATION – Nizkor Fund
>
>and should be mailed to:
>
> San Antonio Area Foundation
> Nizkor Fund
> P.O. Box 120366
> San Antonio, TX 78212-9566

That is not an explanation. If you do not have tax free status
contributions to that fund will not be eligable for tax deductions. You
should make that clear.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43667 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kleinsorg slanders Germans
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:11:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77245 alt.revisionism:43667 soc.culture.jewish:57002

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Where does Nizkor get all it’s money? Well, me and my Chicago pal, the
>same one what likes to bust knees, sent in under an alias (because the
>cops want this pal) over $35 million, most of which goes to support my
>other pal, McVay’s high and fancy lifestyle. More where that came from
>if the cops don’t get Shorty first!
>Chuck

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Horst Kleinsorg) wrote:
>>
>> >On 14 Jun 1996 13:31:18 -0700, [email protected] (Ken
>> >McVay OBC) wrote:

>> Supposedly a synagogue is collected tax free contributions for Nizkor
>> even though Nizkor does not have tax exempt status.

>That’s none of your business either, twerp. The point is, what does
>Horst care about Nizkor’s resources? Is he gonna start sticking his
>neck out too or remain behind the trees. Come on out, Horst. I miss
>ya!

Anything is my business, camp liberating fighter pilot. What did you
do, destroy the camp in order to save it?

But when I start soliciting contributions for personal gain he certainly
has a right to start asking questions.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:29 PDT 1996
Article: 43670 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:59:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Giwer, you keep making the statement that there is “no evidence” just
>testimony to prove the gassings and other Holocaust details are true.
>Please explain for all of us what you mean by no evidence. What
>constitutes evidence for you? You go on and on about blue colors, and
>stupid formulas which even you fail to understand. Your continous
>harping about lack of evidence seems to me to be a red herring,
>designed to distract others from dealing with the existing, proven
>evidence. Don’t launch a lot of legal razzle-dazzle. Stick with the
>subject. What evidence is lacking which proves that the Holocaust
>happened the way it happened, and that millions of Jews and others
>were murdered by the Nazis, some by shooting, great numbers by
>gassing, and whatever the Nazis decided to use to kill humans.

You appear to have a serious problem with reading.

No evidence means no evidence. It is something you should learn to deal
with some day.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43672 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:34:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>> This nonsense is dead. Give it up.

>Only in your feverish dreams.

Sorry but it takes fevered dreams to keep something like this alive. It
is the same impulse that keeps Friday the 13th in sequals.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:57:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Whitey) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>>>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>>>By now? You mean because millions of Jews died by fire at the hands of
>>>the super-race? That’s a joke, if it wasn’t so true. Wonder where
>>>people like this come from? From under some warm rock maybe!

>> Tell us all about the millions of Jews who died by fire? It looks like
>>you still believe Elie Wiesel’s first book is true. Or that Wiesel is
>>more than a story teller.
>>

>Matt, the holocaust is historical fact;

Define it.

just because it gives your
>political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>happened will make it so. That is called “denial”.

It is called pointing out there has never been any evidence for gassing
or much of anything else regarding the popular fantasies comprising the
undefined holocaust.

I remember an old
>soldier, a tanker with 1st Armored Division in WWII I think, who told
>me of what he saw after they took out the guard towers at one
>particular death camp.

Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?

See what I mean? One more fantasy you have come to believe that is
contrary to what even today is admitted to be fact.

They raced through the gate, expecting to find
>imprisoned Allied soldiers – which they did, but most of them were
>civilians, and ALL of them were treated in a manner which, in his
>words, ” You’d shoot a man for treating his dog that way.” . He was
>having a beer in the VFW in Killen, Texas, and I saw the look in his
>eyes. He had seen his buddies blown to bits before his eyes, he had
>seen entire cities reduced to rubble, but he wasn’t prepared for the
>death camps. So, to those who deny that it happened – Sorry, no sale.
>Memory lasts for quite awhile.

Sorry, but he was never in a death camp according to Simon Wiesenthal.

Perhaps a better question is how much your memory has embellished
whatever he actually did say.

>Byte me.

How mature. You must be in college.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43679 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:29:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 1:30:27 AM CDT 1996
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Of interest is always those bones sent to the grinder. In the process
>> of the human body burning the two bones most likely to be left are the
>> pelvis and the skull. Yet in the few cases (for the partial cremation,
>> charred advocates this is unfortunate) where bones are in fact
>> mentioned, the skull is not mentioned.

>I won’t ask how many bones compose the skull and pelvis (because
>I know he doesn’t have a clue) but I will ask where this piece of
>data comes from.

Gee, now just where do I start with this one? There are numerous
approaches to answer it.

Lets try this.

Q: How many bones compose the skull and pelvis?

A: The skull, two in an adult, counting the jaw, discounting the six
small bones in the ear. The pelvis, one.

What did I miss?

Or are you insisting I have a source of authority? Try Grey’s Anatomy.
I am certain you can find a copy of that.

Or do you want to know why those are the two most likely to be left?

Look it up under forensics/fires.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 43681 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:00:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 7:01:54 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:37:45 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>Is the quote from the red, green, or blue series?
>>>Is the quote evidence given in testimony, or is it a document?
>>>Does it form part of an indictment?
>>>To which defendant does the quote pertain?
>>>How much text has been replaced by the ellipsis?
>>>What does the replaced text say?
>>>Who said/wrote it?
>>>Did this person claim to have been an eyewitness?
>>
>>>I know the answers to these questions. Do you?
>>
>> I do not care.

>I knew that already.

>> It is quite up to the holohugger standards for this
>>conference. When the holohuggers start posting to the standards you are
>>implying should be used, then there is a cause to call me to that same
>>standard.

>Oh, you mean like actually reading the sources they cite instead of
>doing something really unoriginal like cutting and pasting from denier
>web pages?

You actually believe they are not doing a cut and paste job? They are
occasionally even labeled as such in that the source gives its original
source. Thus the source used has already predigested it.

>> Until then, Keren’s mythical Polish spies do not explain the lies about
>>steaming people to death. Of course, if Keren is willing to post to
>>your standards that will be a different matter. So far he has simply
>>invented his Polish spies.

>Yeah, yeah. “I’ll answer questions when you answer questions.” Not
>terribly original.

I know. The holohuggers started it.

>> BTW: IF in fact you do know the answers you would be doing the subject
>>a great service were you to post the answers. Why do you not? Would
>>you rather play games?

>You mean you don’t know the context of the quote? Well, colour me
>surprised!

You mean you do not either which is not surprising. Of course I expect
people were expected to believe you really did have it in front of you
at the time you posted as you said. Do you have the complete set or did
you just happen to have the volumes of interest? Don’t worry, the
holohuggers will believe you. They will believe anything.

>> How about a wild guess. You will claim my failure to provide the
>>answers will mean the passage does not exist. You will harp upon this
>>until the passage is forgotten.

>Oh, but it does exist.

>Harp on your ignorance? Please, sir, I do not lead such a pathetic
>existence that I have to validate it by spending all my time trying to
>make you hate me.

>Your contention appears to be that the “Polish spies” must have gotten
>pretty close to the “steam” chamber to be able to notice details like
>the slippery “terracotta” floor and all those people slipping on it.
>So the person who wrote/said this must have been standing pretty
>close, right? Well, how close was he standing? A rough guess would
>satisfy me.

>C’mon, Mr. Giwer, this is a “gimme.”

Not very because it is a completely fabricated story. Terracotta is a
bit much. But then there is the boiler and the piping thrown in for a
little more verasimilitude to this story.

I am simply pointing out the selective rejection of the incredible story
of steaming while accepting the incredible story of gassing even though
the gassing stories contain things more glaring than the “terracotta”
nonsense. After all, it is possible that baked clay tiles were used.
The gassing stories contain many physical impossibilities.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43682 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, XIII
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:26:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 5:27:17 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:41:22 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>> Why the weekly spamming of the same material?

>Sniff, sniff, snivel.

When I was accused of it, it was sufficient justification to harrass my
service provider until I was removed. It is still used as justification
for that harrassment. It is also used to justify the harrassment of my
family.

But you know that is what holohuggers are like.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:34 PDT 1996
Article: 43685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, I
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:37:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 12:38:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS Oberscharfuehrer Erich Bauer
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 77]
>—————————————————————-
>Usually the undressing went smoothly. Subsequently, the Jews were
>taken through the “tube” to Camp III –

The “tube.” Is this anything like the secret underground tunnels in the
McMartin Trial?

What is “Camp III”?

the real extermination
>camp. The transfer through the “tube” proceeded as follows: one
>SS man was in the lead and five or six Ukrainian auxiliaries were
>at the back hastening the Jews along. The women were taken through a
>barracks where their hair was cut off. In Camp III the Jews were
>received by an SS man… As I already mentioned, the motor was then
>switched on by Gotringer and one of the auxiliaries whose name I
>don’t remember. Then the gassed Jews were taken out.

Strangely only the hair of women was cut off when other mindless Keren
fantastical testimony holds that two centimeters was the desired length
for felt.

Keren is a brain dead idiot for believing crap like this.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:34 PDT 1996
Article: 43687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Millions and millions lost
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:36:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 3:37:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

What we have here is an interesting numbers game. Millions of people
appearing and disappearing at the stroke of a pen. Yet we have exactly
the right number of Jews given or take the latest revision.

Registry Number C8607/95/18
FROM Allied Control Authority
No. CORC/P (45) 149
Dated 14th Nov. 1945
Received in Registry 21st Nov. 1945

Plan for the transfer of German population to be moved from Austria,
Czechoslovakia,
Hungary and Poland into the Four occupied zones of Germany.

Note by the Secretariat submitting a copy of the above plan for
consideration by the
Co-ordinating Committee at their 21st Meeting on 16th November.

This makes the situation a good deal clearer, but unfortunately rather
less satisfactory. It is clear
that the 6.5 million Germans to be moved (leaving the 150,000 from
Austria out of account) are
those now in Polish-administered areas or in Czechoslovakia. Therefore
the present plan does
not take account of all the very large number of Germans who have
already been expelled from
Poland and the smaller number who have already been expelled from
Czechoslovakia. These,
who may amount altogether to some 5 or 6 million, are mostly now in the
Soviet zone of Germany.
It is scarcely to be hoped that the Russians will not at some stage
demand that the Powers
occupying the other zones should share with them the burden of settling
these people. In that case
the allocation of 1.5 million to the British zone might be doubled.

The fact that 3 million Germans are now said to be in Poland requiring
transfer is an ironic
commentary on the assurances of Marshal Stalin and the Polish
Government, given four months
ago at Potsdam, that at that time no more than 1.5 million Germans
remained in the areas taken
over by the Poles. If there are 3.5 million now, there must have been 6
or 7 million then.

This plan also lays down a schedule for movements of the 6.5 million out
of Poland and
Czechoslovakia. According to this, 30% of the total (i.e. about 2
million) will be moved before the
end of next March, i.e. during the coming winter.

[signed] C. O’Neill
22nd November, 1945

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:35 PDT 1996
Article: 43696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:30:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>

>Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>:-)

Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a pharmacist
would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
course.

The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:35 PDT 1996
Article: 43698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:01:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 2:02:58 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>[About the Natzweiler gas chamber]
>
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## No, you miserable imbecile. It *was* discovered in 1945, and
>## a few people – including Joseph Kramer – testified about the
>## gassing there.
>
># And the evidence was what? Stolen copper pipes?
>
>So, first Giwer lies, and claims the gas chamber was “discovered”
>only recently. Then, he starts making lame jokes about the gas
>chamber. This sums up what the 163 IQ man can do: lie and tell
>lame jokes.

Ever since your Polish spy and oily exhaust nonsense was demolished you
have been refusing to post anything positive? Why is that?

What EXACTLY are you talking about? Please be specific.

>## Not only is this statement untrue in principle, the gas
>## chamber *was* discovered at the time.

># Got any pictures of it?
>
>There are quite a few in Pressac’s book about the gassing in
>the Natzweiler camp. You should take a look. I bet some of the
>other photos there would cause you great joy. Look at the book
>and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.

I did not realize anyone was primitive enough be believe in Natzweiler
any longer. Or so unfamiliar with the pharamacist’s book for that
matter. It is clearly a clothing delousing chamber of the standard
Degesh design.

Get over it. There are none anywhere. And even Wiesenthal agrees that
there were none in Germany.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:36 PDT 1996
Article: 43699 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 12:21:58 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:

>>John Morris wrote on 6/5

>>>According to the conservation of energy, 100% of the roof
>>> still exists in some form. The question is: in what form?
>> Mr. Morris, please try not be sophmoric. 90% of the
>>roof exists in a coherent form which allows a viewer to
>>determine the number of holes presently in the roof.

>>>What floor? Are you claiming that the floor is intact under a roof
>>>slab that collapsed intact onto the floor below? Did you
>>>excavate to find this intact floor?

>>>You seem to like waving Pressac’s _Technique_ under
>>>our noses. Look at
>>>the pictures on pp. 353-354. How much intact floor do
>>>you see there
>>>beside the partially destroyed support pillars?

>>Actually I have been banging you about the ears with it,
>>thumping its cover, insistently citing its pages. That is
>>because it is the best source of primary evidence of
>>the condition of the so-called gaschambers.
>>
>>Pressac, being an Exterminationist, has avoided giving
>>evidence on certain embarassing subjects such as the
>>amount of roof still available for inspection and the condition
>>and location of the all important vent holes. For the same
>>reason he avoids any pictures of the floor of the Leichenkeller
>>and, of course, any bolt holes.

>My understanding is that Pressac was first a distortionist and denier
>who upon investigation had a change of mind. I think he was being
>completely honest about what he found. It would seem that Pressac, the
>initial denier, would want to find and report all evidence. You calim
>above is also unsubstantiated.

He is a pharamacist who never took a chemistry course in his life.

>>>Did you look for bolt holes? Did it occur to you that even if there
>>>was an intact floor there that a holes that were partially >submerged at
>>different times of the year might have filled with >mud and debris?

>>More obscurantism. If the floor is there then Exterminationists
>>should easily point to the bolt holes. The destruction of
>>the floor can also easily be shown. They have done neither.

>I think they told you that the floor was buried. You make claims as
>though you saw it. This is unlikely.

Why is it that the things needed to support the fanciful stories are
never to be found?

>>I believe the floor is intact without bolt holes.

>What you believe doesn’t matter here in the least.

The only drawing of the wire mesh basket at Nizkor has nothing on it to
connect to any bolt holes. But you know that.

>> I do not claim
>>to know.
>>You seem to believe something else but I don’t think that
>>you claim to know either.
>>The obvious solution to the question is to go and look.

>I don’t think they’ll approve the digging up of the site. What’s wrong
>with the testimony provided about the design and the description of
>Krema II on page 167 of _Anatomy_?

What is wrong with seeing if there is anything like what the story
describes?

>>We are discussing something which can be tested.

>Apparently not.

Why not?

>>This is another advantage of concentrating on
>>physical evidence at the site.

>What’s left of it, you mean. What’s wrong with the testimony provided
>about the design and the description of Krema II on page 167 of
>_Anatomy_?

What is wrong with seeing if it matches reality? Or does a tourist
attraction not want to risk the loss of revenues?

>> Ultimately the argument
>>can be resolved by somebody actually getting a little
>>dirty and seeing what is there.

>Be my guest.

>>I am pleased to put my beliefs to the test.

>The ball is in your court to put *your* *Own* beliefs to the test.
>What has been presented here fairly disputes your “beliefs” and makes
>it a total waste of time to do any further tests.

It is difficult to imagine any other field in which tests to support
stories are unnecessary. The Shroud of Turin comes to mind.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:37 PDT 1996
Article: 43701 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:50:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 3:51:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected]rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Would someone care to explain to Van Alstine that the skeletons of
>>diatoms are not made of silicon?
>>

>Mr. Van Alstine has already acknowleged his error in believing that
>diatomaceous earth and silica gel were the same. They are quite
>different. When will Mr. Giwer acknowlege his error about N2 burning
>and forming HCN?

> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:

> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
> lets wait for his commentary.

> …

> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
> throw the rest away)

> Since you are such a great scientist perhaps you can explain how
> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
> explain.

I remember this one. It was when you were trying to deceive people into
believing there could be no HCN production from coke flue gases. And it
was all in response to my statement of “probably more.”

But as we now know, you have denied ever trying to deceive anyone into
believing that. But thanks for posting the evidence that you did in
fact make that attempt. I appreciate it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:37 PDT 1996
Article: 43702 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Millions and millions more
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:40:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-46.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 3:41:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Vanishing people were all over Europe.

WAR DEPARTMENT
CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE

TOP SECRET TOT

PRIORITY

CRYPTOGRAPHIC SECURITY DOES NOT APPLY. HANDLE AS TOP SECRET
CORRESPONDENCE PER PARAS 44g AND 53a AR 380-5

From: CG US Forces European Theater Main Frankfurt Germany
To: War Department
Nr: S 28399….. 18 October 1945

S 28399 to for action War Dept for G 2 attn Major General Clayton
Bissell from Hqs US Forces
European Theater Main from Connor from Sibert sgd Eisenhower cite ETGBI.
TOP SECRET.

Detailed reports from reliable observers including an officer from G 2
Div confirm indications of
critical situation developing in area Silesia and eastern Germany.

In Silesia, Polish administration and methods are causing a mass exodus
westward of German
inhabitants. Germans are being ordered out of their homes and to
evacuate New Poland. Many
unable to move are placed in camps on meager rations and under poor
sanitary conditions.
Death and disease rate in camps extremely high. Germans who attempt to
hold onto homes and
land are terrorized into “Voluntary” evacuation. Methods used by Poles
definitely do not conform
to Potsdam agreement. Polish administration disorganized in Silesia and
no security exists for
inhabitants of region.

Due to mass migrations into Brandenberg and Saxony, health conditions in
these regions
tragically low. There is unprecedented lack of food, medical supplies,
and doctors. Reasonable
estimates predict between 2.5 and 3 million victims of malnutrition and
disease between Oder
and Elbe by next spring.

CM-IN-8742 (18 Oct 45)

WAR DEPARTMENT
CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE

TOP SECRET TOT

Page 2

From: CG US Forces European Theater, Main Frankfurt Germany
Nr: S28399 18 October 1945

Breslau death rate increased ten fold, and death rate reported to be 75%
of all births. Typhoid,
typhus, dysentery, and diphtheria are spreading.

Total number potentially involved in westward movement to Russian Zone
of Germany from
Poland and Czechoslovakia in range of 10 million. Estimate 65 to 75 per
cent already departed
or on the road westward. No coordinated measures yet taken to direct
stream of refugees into
specific regions or provide food and shelter. Tendency of refugees is to
move into cities, and
cities of Saxony, especially are becoming dangerously over crowded.
Attention is invited in this
connection to serious danger of epidemic of such great proportion as to
menace all Europe,
including our troops, and to probability of mass starvation
unprecedented scale.

Copies of special reports for your information are being forwarded by
Mail Annex Nbr 3 to our
Special Intelligence Bulletin Nbr 3 gives a preview of this problem.

End

ACTION : Gen Bissell

INFO: Gen Arnold, Gen Hull, C of S

CM-In-8742 (18 Oct 45) DTG 181435A da

TOP SECRET

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:38 PDT 1996
Article: 43716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, V
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:28:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 2:29:14 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS Oberscharfuehrer Heinrich Matthes about Treblinka
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 121]
>——————————————————————
>During the entire time I was in Treblinka, I served in the upper camp.
>The upper camp was that part of Treblinka with the gas chambers,
>where the Jews were killed and their corpses laid in large pits and
>later burned.

Danny boy, you forget the certified true eyewitness testimny of the
crematoria at Treblinka. No pits required. In fact there were plans to
build more crematoria.

Your robotic postings are destroying your favorite holocaust.

>About fourteen Germans carried out services in the upper camp. There
>were two Ukrainians permanently in the upper camp. One of them was
>called Nikolai, the other was a short man, I don’t remember his name…
>These two Ukrainians who lived in the upper camp served in the gas
>chambers. They also took care of the engine room when Fritz Schmidt
>was absent. Usually this Schmidt was in charge of the engine room. In
>my opinion, as a civilian he was either a mechanic or a driver…

>All together, six gas chambers were active. According to my estimate,
>about 300 people could enter each gas chamber. The people went into
>the gas chamber without resistance. Those who were at the end, the
>Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the
>Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts…

>The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt
>stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine
>room opened the gas chambers from the other side.

Amazing is it not? Only 16 people managed 300 x 6 bodies. And then the
crematoria or open pits were no place in sight.

What a crock. Even more, an applied math type believes it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:39 PDT 1996
Article: 43718 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:16:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 2:17:27 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , [email protected]
>>>(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>>
>>>> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
>>>> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>>
>>>Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>>
>>>I stand corrected.
>>
>>>> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>>>> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>>>> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>>>> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
>>>absorption
>>>> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>>>>
>>>> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>>>> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>>>> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>>>> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>>>> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>>>> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>>>>
>>>> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
>>
>>>Undoubtably true. I’ve never _claimed_ to be a chemist…. But thanks for
>>>the info! };->
>>
>> So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
>>as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
>>”eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
>>misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
>>gone, not when fresh.
>>
>> So we are left with fabricated stories from eyewitnesses as always.

>Mr. Van Alstine’s mistake about silica gel and diatomite proves nothing
>except that even well-educated people can make honest mistakes. Mr.
>Giwer should demonstrate that ERCO is not blue and cannot be pea-sized,
>if that is his claim.

Sorry about that, Herr Green. I find it most sad when when holohuggers
are forced to face their worst nightmare. I really do find them
disgusting enough to pity them. Their sacred religion is crumbling
around them and there is no place to hide.

This nonsense is dead. Give it up.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:40 PDT 1996
Article: 43720 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:47:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Bernard wrote:

>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>> Note that the followups have been trimmed.
>>
>> Ambrose ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>> : Before you embarass yourself here, why don’t you read up on the history
>> : of the Holocaust. It began in early 1942. Before that time Jews were
>> : treated quite horribly.. deported, forced into ghettos, dying of
>> : disease and starvation, etc… but the actual death camps did not come
>> : into being until ’42.
>>
>> Even Arno Mayer admits that mass executions were performed by the
>> Einsatzgruppen in 1941.
>>
>> —–
>> Richard Schultz [email protected]
>> Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>> Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>> —–
>> “I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell.”

>From what i know even some Jewish Historians agrue that the number
>of Jews killed by the Nazis where “some what lower” then 6 million
>BUT that is not the point .Wheter it where 6 million or 4.5 million
>or what ever number it DOESNT CHANGE THE FAT THAT THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST
> WANTED TO KILL EVERY JEW THE COULD GET THERE HANDS ON (or other political
>enemies like conservatives ect.)
>And YES gas was used !!NO doubt about it!!

Unfortunately what little evidence there is does not support that claim.
It is not a matter of doubt, it is a matter of absolutely zero evidence.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:40 PDT 1996
Article: 43722 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, II
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:40:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Kurt Bolender, In the
>Belzec-Oberhauser trial:
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 76].
>——————————————————————-
>Before the Jews undressed, Oberscharfuehrer Michel made a speech
>to them. On these occasions, he used to wear a white coat to
>give the impression that he was a physician. Michel announced to
>the Jews that they would be sent to work, but before this they
>would have to take baths and undergo disinfection so as to
>prevent the spread of diseases… After undressing, the Jews
>were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the
>gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians…After
>the Jews entered the gas chambers, the Ukrainians closed the
>doors. The motor which supplied the gas was switched on by
>a Ukrainian named Emil and by a German driver called Erich
>Bauer from Berlin. After the gassing, the door were opened
>and the corpses removed….

Keren is obviously lacking in analytic skills to believe nonsense like
this. Sadomasochistic personalities do love to dwell on such things.
It is good that they do. It keeps them from acting it out.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43723 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, III
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:41:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial,
>Dusseldorf
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 31-32].
>————————————————————–
> ….We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at
>least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation
>and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.

Hey, you posted this crap one week ago. It is still the concoction of a
demented idiot.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:42 PDT 1996
Article: 43724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, IV
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:45:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp
>[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
>—————————————————————–
>When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
>SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
>his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
>Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
>[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
>plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated. We were to
>keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
>to reckon with our families’ imprisonment and the death penalty…

>The extermination camp was made up of the so-called “castle” and the
>camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
>edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
>been transported by lorry or railway were first brought…

>When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
>addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer
>Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
>Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They
>explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and
>deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then
>went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this
>they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard
>where the so-called “gas-van” was parked. The back door of the van
>would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was
>done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles
>hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast
>enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver
>then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a
>pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now
>poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were
>suffocated…

>

You need to deal with your fascination with murder before you can
honestly post on this subject. You need to do that before you act it
out.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:42 PDT 1996
Article: 43725 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, IV
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:44:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Herman Lambert about Sobibor
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 123]
>—————————————————————-
>As I mentioned at the beginning, I was in the extermination camp
>of the Jews for about two to three weeks. It was sometime in
>autumn 1942, but I don’t remember exactly when. At that time I
>was assigned by Wirth to enlarge the gassing structure according
>to the model of Treblinka. I went to Sobibor together with Lorenz
>Hackenholt, who was at that time in Treblinka…

>We reported to the camp commander, Reichsleitner. He gave us exact
>directive for the construction of the gassing installations. The
>camp was already in operation, and there was a gassing installation.
>Probably the old installation was not big enough, and reconstruction
>was necessary.

Give it up, Keren. You have posted more than enough to destroy the myth
you wish to preserve.

You have made a fool of your own beliefs.

You have made fools of all of the Jews you represent.

You are demolishing the mass extermination with everything you post.

You pleasure in believing this is your own undoing.

Yes, you have a very perverse mind and you need to come to grips with it
rather than make all Jews look like fools.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:43 PDT 1996
Article: 43732 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:40:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Lary Myles) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…

>>anything to stifle free speech. So, while I will take
>>exception to what you are doing, I sure as hell won’t put my
>>money where my mouth is.”

>Ahhh…it’s Mr. OiMcVay!! Still beating up on little folks I see. As far as
>you not putting up your money where your mouth is…what a surprise. But then
>again, as you continue to waste your time embarrasing the Jews in our
>community, I guess that comes as no surprise.
>I’m really not that surprised to see that you are an anti-Freedom of Speecher
>as well.

Actually he is very much in favor of free speech. He simply wants to
deport those who exercise it so they can speak freely some place else.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:44 PDT 1996
Article: 43739 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:12:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>## There were gas chambers in Germany proper and Austria. This is
>>## beyond dispute; the gas chambers are still there.

>># They are standardize delousing chambers used for clothing, mattresses
>># and the like.

>>It would be nice if you offered some proof for this claim. Surely,
>>someone with an IQ of 163 should realize he can’t just make such
>>statements without proving them.

>This Giwer weed doesn’t have to prove anything. He sprouts up
>everywhere and shows himself by posting his polution in every thread.
>Lies are cheap so what the hell, post away. We just keep pulling this
>weed out, but it doesn’t care, for it can sprout anywhere.

I would have expected you folks who have so carefully studied everything
about the subject would know about these delousing chambers. There were
so many in use that Degesh claimed it had deloused the possessions of 25
million people.

But if you really believe there were people type gas chambers in
Germany, take it up with Simon Wiesenthal. He shares my opinion on the
matter.

It is beginning to appear you folks never read anything but holohugger
sources.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:45 PDT 1996
Article: 43740 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:24:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4pjcbl$h[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>> >>
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> >The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>> >> >camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>> >> >day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>> >> >month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>> >> >malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>> >> >systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>> >>
>> >> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>> >> rate.
>>
>> >What was the crematoria capacity available to the Nazis , Giwer?
>>
>> >What was the _incineration_ capacity available to the Nazis, Giwer?
>>
>> >BTW, don’t forget to provide verifiable sources for your claims.
>>
>> To all the above, not enough. This is to a mantra chanting idiot like
>> all the holohugging and mantra chanting brain dead idiots who can not
>> see past the war propaganda.

>Yet another ad hominem non-answer by the Giwer-Troll which clearly
>evidences that he hasn’t the slightest clue what he’s talking abiout.
>Unsuprising, considering the Giwer-Trolls abject ignorance on the subject.

>Again:

>What was the crematoria capacity available to the Nazis , Giwer?
>
>What was the _incineration_ capacity available to the Nazis, Giwer?

>BTW, don’t forget to provide verifiable sources for your claims.

>Will the Giwer-Troll provide a detailed reply to these questions, along
>with the sources used to support his claims? Or will the Giwer-Troll
>further prove to all the he is an ignorant misanthrope who’s only interest
>is the self-gratification of baiting people to get his rocks off, thus
>proving that he is a master baiter?

There is still not enough, mantra chanting fool.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 43741 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:46:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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At 07:15 PM 6/15/96 -0700, you wrote:
>In article <[email protected].netcom.com>, [email protected]
>says…
>>
>> Consider for the moment that he is the idol, the role model, the
>>DIRECTOR of Nizkor.
>>
>
>Look..you can’t fault the fool for finding something where he can cadge a few
>bucks. I’m doing some work right now with an advocacy group as well..but we
>are a hell of a lot slicker than this buffoon. Direct mailing lists, 900
>numbers and over $1M canadian bucks to make it all fly. So, although McVay
>is small potatotes, at least he has a wrinkle that if worked properly can
>make him some money.

So where are you hiding it? Even in Canadian that is real
money.

>> Consider his five or six adoring fans in the Nizkor Gang of
>>Contributors.
>
>Hey! Nothing wrong with the wing-nut having a hard core of contributors…for
>if he didn’t have those guys, he would be out on his duff. I’m just amazed
>that he picked this kind of overworked theme to use for fund-raising. There
>are some great areas..mainly south of the border that could make him
>millions. I’ll wager though,that he just doesn’t have the smarts to make
>something like that fly.

It is like putting up a porn site and then bragging about the
hits. It sells in some markets.

> Consider this is the best the defense of holocaust orthodoxy has to
>>offer.
>>
>> This is the gas station attendant defenders of the true faith.
>>
>> This is the leader of a gang of future gas station attendents who
>
>Tsk-tsk..so, is Nutty McVay a gas jockey! At his age…well, in defense of
>that, at least the loser isn’t so lame as to be collecting welfare.

At least it is honest work. What I can fault is his apparent
reluctance to discuss it. If he were a pimp I could understand.

>>can
>>not master the basics of setting up and running a website resulting in
>>one of the slowest sites on the web despite the lack of enhancements.

>A website! Hell, our gang just got our server up and running, selected target
>markets and have a crew of tele-marketers all ready to go. The poor bastard,
>now I can see why he is so bitter.

My son and a friend got an entire ISP up in less than a month
while doing their primary jobs at the shop. I didn’t know how to spell
HTML last August and my site went up in October. I have know idea why
they think they have accomplished anything.

>> Consider them as the lilies of the field, neither do they sow nor do
>>they reap nor do they say anything comprehensible.
>
>Nah..McVay isn’t that bad. Not at all. Within the Jewish community, he’s
>either pitied or tolerated. Sad..as at his age, it would be nice if he had
>succeeded at his little ploy.

He appears to have found a way to sucker in at least one
congregation.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 43742 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:23:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]en.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>> He is a pharamacist who never took a chemistry course in his life.
>>
>>So what?

>Don’t be fooled by this obvious troll. Pharmacists study quite a bit of
>chemistry. Mr. Giwer has no evidence that Pressac did not study
>chemistry. Mr. Giwer has no evidence that Pressac believed ERCO
>actually to be crystalline.

Richard J. Green EXCUSED HIM for not knowing the difference. But I
digress.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:47 PDT 1996
Article: 43744 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.war,soc.history,war.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lying about atomic bombing and Japanese surrender
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:01:06 GMT
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>Russ Moore wrote:

>> One of the aims of warfare is to destroy the enemy’s ‘will to fight’. In
>> WWII this was the reasoning behind the bombing campaigns of both the
>> Allies and the Axis. The theory was that showing the civilians the
>> horrors of war right in their own backyard would encourage them to tell
>> their leaders to stop. As history NOW shows it tended to have the
>> opposite effect by giving these same leaders a valuable propaganda tool
>> to show how ‘horrid’ the enemy realy was.

>The theory of strategic bombing is a result of the tendancy of people
>to look for the 1 weapon that will win the war. Strategic bombing
>had two parents. The first was the German Zepplin raid on London
>in WW1 that had a bomb hit a pub a kill a bunch of people by accident
>(they were aiming for a military target). The impact this had is
>unimaginable today, so strong that people began thinking that bombing
>the cities might make some sense. What they forgot was that people
>eventually get accustomed to the horror and get on with it.

>The second was technological weakness. You couldn’t precision bomb
>to help your troops out directly, so why bother trying? Also
>there were all those people with guns at the front while the industrial
>centers were fat juicy, unprotected targets that the theorists thought
>they could hammer at will. Never thought about fighters in a
>defensive role, as the Germans and then the Allies learned to their
>misery.

But of course there is another consideration. That ever since the
industrial revolution, the workers are as important as the factories.
Therefore both are legitimate targets.

The US War between the States was much studied. The purpose of
Sherman’s march to the sea was specifically to bring the horrors of war
to the civilians who were supporting the war. He developed this policy
when he commanded the garrison of Vicksburg. (That is a longer story.)

And all of this can be traced back to Napoleon finding a way for France
to send food to his troops in Russia. If the Russians could have hit
the civilians doing the canning they might not have had to burn Moscow.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:48 PDT 1996
Article: 43754 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:30:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Sorry but Pressac is a pharmacist who does not know the basics of
># chemistry even at the high school level. That is why he calls them
># crystals.

>He puts “crystals” in quotation marks, BTW. He’s apparently well
>aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
>described them as such because of their appearance.

Greenie excused him. Take it up with Greenie.

As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there was only
wood pulp, period. Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from Degesh not the
Chechs.

And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:48 PDT 1996
Article: 43756 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:34:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Daniel Keren ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>: # And only the Russians found gas chambers.

>: Liar.
>: Why do you lie so much? Is it some kind of a disease?

>I think it’s obvious: the only thing that Giwer wants is to be the
>center of everyone’s attention. Since he doesn’t care whether that
>attention is positive or negative, then the easiest way for him to
>accomplish that goal is to enter a newsgroup on which the majority of
>people spend their time combating lies, and spend as much time as
>possible telling lies. I can’t see why anyone would want to pass a
>Moran-style Turing test (i.e. is he really as stupid as Moran or only
>imitating someone who is as stupid as Moran), but I’m no student of
>abnormal psychology.

Simon Wiesenthal has said there were no gas chambers in Germany.

Take up your claims of lying with him, not me.

You folks can never get your stories straight.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:49 PDT 1996
Article: 43764 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

Dec 26, 1995 @
Q. What’s left after a body is cremated? It’s ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term “ashes” is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
fragments missing. Buried in a 5 acre area. 400 tons of bone fragments
per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.

1,200,000 at Auschwitz. 3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
through a 1 centimeter mesh.

My thank again to Van Alstine for this website.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:50 PDT 1996
Article: 43765 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You TOO can pump gas, just like Ken McVay GSA!
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:57:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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“Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>”Thomas J. Penton” wrote:

>>Hey ronny i gues this means you will be owning the gas station in a couple
>>of years? and could i have a free fill up.

>You’ll have to ask our resident gas pumper and candy bar ringer-upper,
>Kenny McOyVay — the best the holohoaxers could find to do their dirty
>work, by the way. I have never worked for a gas station, but Kenny McVay
>at the ripe old age of 55 hasn’t ever gotten OUT of working for a gas
>station!!!

Hey, it is honest work. What is of interest is that he appears
sensitive about it. Maybe there is more to it.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:51 PDT 1996
Article: 43772 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay: Not Addressing the Question
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:24:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ourobouros) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) says:
>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote, without
>>noting the hilarious irony:
>>
>>>Gee, why am I NOT surprised that Fester engages in a truly spectacular
>>>display of bafflegab when she can’t address the question, even with one of
>>>her smart-ass comments?
>>
>>Oh, joy, another opening to remind the world that Mr. Griswold
>>is not, er, too swift when it comes to answering questions….
>>the phrase “pot, kettle, black” comes to mind…. except that
>>Ms. Finsten answers questions, while Mr. Griswold avoids them
>>like the plague:
>>
>[snip]

>Curious McVay.

>Questions:

>1. If Miss Finsten answers questions why has she always avoided/dodged
>mine?
> 1a. Using Finsten’s argument on equality, do you consider me to be equal
>to Miss Finsten?
> 1b. According to anthropological classification the Portuguese are
>Caucasian and the Ethiopian is Negro. However both are half breeds
>white/black mixes. Could you please explain the difference in
>classification?
> 1c. According to Miss Finsten, races are purely a social phenomena and
>is most definitely not biological. Could you please explain on social
>grounds only how of the 800 skulls found in predynastic Egypt, a third
>could be Negro?

Although I am certain you know it, Finstein is a politically correct
idiot even to the spelling of her name so as not to appear Jewish.

>2. According a new book on the Hoaxacost (Holocost for Beginners) the
>idea for using the Jew’s own body fat for fuel was abandoned because it
>was too inefficient. Could you please explain how you got this figure of
>1/2 hour burning time, of which body fat played a crucial role in your
>argument?

It was abandoned because it was nonsense based solely upon fabricated
eyewitness testimony and supported only by some deceptive chemists.

>3. Some of the more minor camps (according to you) used Russian tank
>engines for gassing Jews. Could you please explain why Germany near the
>end of the war was diverting all its fuel from the frontline to gassing
>Jews?

Can he rather explain how huge camps could be build with the intention
of gassing people with Diesel engines and then leave them to scrounge
the engines in non-working condition?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:52 PDT 1996
Article: 43773 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:14:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Charles) wrote:

> Your point is well-taken.
> Personally, even though Marx was, indeed, Jewish, I myself wouldn’t
>call Communism a “Jewish” theory. I just don’t see any important
>connection between Marx being a Jew and Communism. This isn’t to deny
>that Jews have been very “over-represented,” strictly numerically
>speaking, among the legions of Russian (and German) Communists.
> Many, in fact, have read Marx’s “The German Ideology” and came away
>with the belief that Marx, himself, was genuinely anti-semitic. (The
>whole notion of the “self-hating Jew,” etc.)

Self-hating Jew is something new? What other explanation for this
holocaust being used as a “never again” ego builder? Real macho as
compared to the last time it happened with their “gas me, don’t shoot
me” attitude. Marx was dealing with what it was like over a century
earlier.

BTW: Nie Wieder was a German slogan after WW II referring to the Treaty
of Versailles. It was co-opted.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:53 PDT 1996
Article: 43774 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish – Read it and weep.
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:25:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Harrold) wrote:

>[email protected] (Charles) wrote:

>> In recent years, Pozner has been a co-host with Phil Donohue on yet
>>another tv talk show. Problem is, I can’t figure out who’s further to
>>the left, ex-Soviet aparachnik Pozner or Donohue!
>>–

>But please explain something. If this is true, then why did so many
>Jews want to leave the Soviet Union? Why weren’t they allowed to
>practice their faith in their own country if Communisim is so
>intertwined with Judaism? And why isn’t it possible to explain those
>U.S. consulate reports as mere anti-semitism held by the authors of
>those reports?

I did not think it was any secret that the ones who took over were
atheist Jews. They did not make any exceptions.

>Was Lenin a Jew?

>Trotsky was, but Lenin had him murdered.

Power struggles do not make for friends.

>Was Stalin a Jew?

>How about Brezhnev? Or Khruschev?

None of these people made the revolution happen.

>Mao was a communist. Is he Jewish? And what about Cho En Li? Or Ho Chi
>Mihn?

>How about Che Gueverra?

>Your premise that Judaism is the sin quo non of communism is sheer
>stupidity.

There is no question that the idiocy of Marxism can affect all the ranks
and profssions. However, it is quite clear that atheist Jews were a
major force in the Bolshevik revolution.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:54 PDT 1996
Article: 43778 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:22:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >The less intelligent deniers: Giwer, Moran, Ceacaa, and Beaulieu* have
>> >tried and tried, but have been unable to present evidence as to the
>> >physical impossibility. I put the * by Beaulieu beacuse he actually
>> >does appear to have a brain (demonstrated by his ability to do some
>> >trivial calculations) unlike the other 3.
>>
>> Hey, Greenie, you are the person supporting a 20 minute cremation time.

>From the _Internet Cremation Society FAQ_:

>[http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml]

Thanks for the site.

>”Q. At what temperature is the cremation done and is this a standard or do
>some facilities vary? How long does the actual cremation process take and
>does this also vary with temperature?

>”A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
>manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
>The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine.
>Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation
>while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the
>type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations
>conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort we
>operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the second
>takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high internal
>temperature at the beginning of the second cremation.

>Hmmm. From _less_ than one hour to three hours. Not to mention subsequent
>cremations take less time than the first. Also, lets not forget that
>_cremation_ is a strictly regulated affair. Even in Nazi Gemrany it was.
>The deceased were cremated seperately (and completely) and the remains
>carefully removed between cremations to minimize any mixing.

From 3 hours to 1 hour with an average a 2 hours for a modern design.
What is the problem with that? This falls in with the research of
Beaulieu.

Where do you find 20 minutes?

Any thanks for the following information.

Dec 26, 1995 @
Q. What’s left after a body is cremated? It’s ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term “ashes” is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

We now have a better basis of estimating the number fo tens of tons of
bone fragments we expect to find.

>In comparison, the _incineration_ of the Nazi victims of homicidal gassing
>at Auschwitz was done with no such restrictions. This can be seen in the
>_Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration
>Furnace_:

>”As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
>to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
>the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter
>20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a
>container and set aside to cool…. In the meantime, further corpses can
>be introduced one after the other into the chambers.” (_Technique_,
>p.136.)

>[Note: the operating instruction fo the triple-muffle furnaces are the same.]

If there were no such restrictions why did they use the slower method of
a standard cremation rather than cheaper and faster incinerators?

>This clearly depicts an incineration process where the remains of the
>victims are clearly mixed with each other. What this means, then, after a
>corspes of the previous charge had been consumed to the point where they
>fell through the chamotte, the next charge was added, being consumed above
>on the chamotte, while the partially consumed remains of the previous
>charge(s) were being fully consumed in the ash channel.

I do not see that at all. Simply a matter of being less careful with
the 5-7 pounds of bone fragments.

>What this means is in reality the incineration of the victims didn’t take
>just “20 minutes” (or 30 minutes, etc.) but an additional 20 minutes to be
>fully consumed in the ash channels of the furnaces. But as this extra 20
>minutes didn’t impact the charging into and the incineration of the
>corspes in the muffles, it was never, I believe, counted as part of the
>incineration cycle-time. So, the actual time a corpse that took “20
>minutes” to incinerate was really 40 minutes, while the cycle-time for
>charging the muffles with corpses was indeed 20 minutes (or 30 minutes,
>etc). Sounds pretty much like “less than one hour” achieved in some
>crematory furnaces today….

Of course but still the initial burning takes the 2 to 2.5 hours (even
today’s average) and at best you are cutting out 20 minutes resulting in
maybe 1.5 to 2 hours. You still have a long way to go.

>> You are the one supporting 2 kg of coke for each body after the first.

>According the Walter Mu”ller, of the engineering firm Allach, in regards
>to the fuel consumption of incineration furnaces:

>”Mu”ller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use
>and increased economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of
>coke to start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg. if it had been
>used the day before; a second and third incineration on the same day would
>not require any extra fuel thanks to the compressed air; and those that
>followed would call for only small amounts of extra energy…” (_Anatomy_,
>pp.185-186.)

>How small is “amounts of extra energy?” Two kg of coke’s worth?

As you will need on the order of 30,000 kcal you are not going to get
that out of 2 kg of coke. That is only a ballpark on boiling out the
water while maintaining the same temperature.

I pointed this out to you once before, you are still confusing
temperature and heat. (Heat is energy of course.)

It is also interesting to note that this holohugger non-pharmacist has
introduced “fuel tanks” into the discussion for the first time.

>It is also interesting to note that according to the _Operating
>Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace_ that:

>”After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
>reason, care be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above
>1100C (white heat)…. Thsi increase in temeprature can be avoided by
>introducing additional fresh air.” (_Technique_, p.136.)

>This, of course, supports the assertion that the combustion of the corpses
>acted as fuel for the incineratoin process, thus reducing the amount of
>coke needed to heat the furnace.

Not in the least. It is simply saying that there is no more water to
boil which takes up heat and because of that the temperature rises. And
the fresh air throws away that heat up the chimney dropping the
temperate.

>In addition, Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in Krema II, testified:

>”…As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Krematorium II,
>each with three muffles for cremating corpses and heated by two coke-fired
>hearths. The fire flues of the hearths came out above the [ash] collection
>boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two
>side muffles then heated the centre one, from where the combustion gases
>were led out below the furnace, between the two firinf hearths. Thanks to
>this arrangement, the incineration process for the corspes of the side
>muffles differed from that of the centre muffle. The corpses of
><> or wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side
>muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely, the corspes of the
>people gassed directly on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the
>center muffle…. During the incineration of such corpses, we used the
>coke only to light the fire of furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned
>of their own accord thanks the combustion of the body fat. On occasion,
>when the coke was in short supply, we would put some straw and wood in the
>ash bins…under the muffles, and once the fat of the corpse began to burn
>the corpses would catch light themselves….” (Ibid. p.489.)

>”…At the begining of the cremation process, the furnaces were heated
>only by their fireboxes and the charges burned slowly. Later on, as
>cremations succeeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers
>produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of
>fat bodies, the fires were generally extinguished. When this type of body
>was charged into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow intop the
>ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body. When
><> were being creamated, it was necessary to constantly refuel
>the fireboxes….” (Ibid. p.495.)

>Here, we can see that Tauber has indicated that the “incineration of fat
>bodies” did not require much, if any, extra fuel.

No. What you have here is a fanciful concoction by another of your
famous eyewitnesses. You are aware that if this were true that it would
apply to anyone who dies in a fire and the fire gets to the body? You
are aware such a phenomenon has never been reported?

Do you really need more? The fire was extinguished? Do you really
believe that? That is another half hour at least to get it started
again.

More? If this human fat is such a great material why is the fat guy in
the middle instead of on either side? Those guys burn on their own and
they could burn the skinny guy in the middle. Your eyewitness has it
backwards.

More? This fat has to fall into ashes before it burns rather than as it
oozes out. Why is that? Why does this sound so much like the Treblinka
open pit barbeques?

Enough?

>> You are the one claiming the above are possible.

>Indeed. As were, among others, Walter Mu”ller, Henryk Tauber, and by
>inference Topf, the firm that made the furnaces.

If you learn to understand what you are posting you would not post it.
You are supporting the position I have taken.

>> These are not minor discrepencies. These are the crux of the all the
>> deaths of the “unregistered.”

>No, the Giwer-Troll’s “objections” are nothing more than the results of
>rampant bigotry, prejudice, the lack of critical thinking skills and an
>overabundance of denier dogmatism. This is hardly suprising considering
>that:

The AVERAGE time of cremation today is the result of rampant bigotry and
prejudice and a lack of critical thinking skills. I guess an
understanding of the difference between heat and temperature is also.

You are very foolish.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:54 PDT 1996
Article: 43780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: ab.general,can.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MORE SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR FAGGOTS!!
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:15:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ab.general:10276 can.general:80262 can.politics:52266 alt.revisionism:43780

[email protected] wrote:

>Good show. I even heard that people died of a disiese that appeared
>like aids in the FIFTIES!! They were listed as dieing from pnemonia
>(I know I’m a bad speller) But now it is suspected that it may have
>been aids that contributed to this. Interesting little piece of info.
>If it could ever make it past the theoretical stage and was proved,
>that would blow that knob’s theory out the window!! May be worth
>looking into…

The earliest I have heard of was from a Hungarian trained MD who said he
studied an AIDS similar case in med school.

But the issue is not the earliest case but rather that is spread in the
proper environment. Polio was a minor problem in some parts of the
south until after WW II. That is attributed to the national mixing of
troops due to the war.

The issue with AIDS is getting it into the right environment. TB is
barely an issue unless people are in close proximity. Typhus is not an
issue unless people are living in unsanitary conditions.

AIDS started in this country in the city and the part of the city that
was most ripe for its spread. If anyone really takes a close read at
The Band they will see the researchers themselves were surprised to the
point of shocked at the number of different and frequency of STDs found
in the gay community. It was beyond their experience and expectations.

It was just one more disease added to the list. Unfortunately it was
also 100% fatal. Breaks of the game. From the existing diseases they
know and love, gay life expectancy was something like 45 years in the
first place. It isn’t like there was that much of a change.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:55 PDT 1996
Article: 43782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, IX
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:13:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 8:14:49 PM PDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Can’t stand your whining, Mr. Giewer. Please stop posting the same old
>complaint on every post re SS men tell the truth.

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> It would not be so bad if you were spamming just one message but you
>> spam hundreds of the same messages every week.

>Jeez, this is even a lie. You’re so far gone you don’t know what day
>it is. This man is trying to offer evidence which you keep asking for,
>so what is your gripe? Maybe TIT FOR TAT like your girlfriend, Ingrid
>In any case this alt. rev. site doesn’t belong to the deniers, and
>liars. Just grit your teeth. The evidence will be coming and you need
>to accept it gracefully.

It must be senility. alt.revision belongs to revision, not to
orthodoxy. It is people like you who do not belong here.

>> Why do you do this?

>Who cares!!! But it’s good and needs to be done.

With stories like yours you should listen to them. At least you could
get with the program.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:56 PDT 1996
Article: 43783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ece.uc.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gerstein’s wholely credible confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:00:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
Exposure has swung into action.

1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
per day for Treblinka.

But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
today’s slightly less absurd numbers.

2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: “Quicker, quicker, carry
out the whole program!” Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
“Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too.”

Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
of his doubles because he was never near the place.

3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.

Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.

4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”

Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.

5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.

Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
more

Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”

The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.

6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
meters!

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?

Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
could form five high human pyramids.

7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.

And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
exhaust.

8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
the Nazis bad stock.

It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.

9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high

Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.

10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.

A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
fetish.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 43785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Gerstein Confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:04:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 10:05:35 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>> 25 million? A factor of ten is “erronius”?

>If you’re going to attribute something to me with quote marks, Matt,
>do use a spell checker, OK? Or cut-and-paste. Ask your kid how to
>do this.

You don’t know the intende word? Or you have nothing else substantive
to respond to?

>As to the possibility that Gerstein made such an error, sure. He may
>not have been very conversant with population figures and simply have
>thrown in an extra order of magnitude. For many human beings, the
>number system consists of the fingers, the toes, and “lots”. Nothing
>shocking about making errors of this sort. I might well do the same
>if you asked me the number of miles to the sun.

He is pretending to speak from personal knowledge.

>> Or are you stating the people today know more about
>>WW II than those who lived through it?

>Why yes, in very many ways, they certainly have access to more
>information than even generals had at the time. That’s true of much
>of history. Do you think the average Crusader knew more about the
>big picture of the Crusades than a modern historian? Is this too
>difficult a concept for you to grasp?

There was no big picture to any crusade. This was a man in the know.
This man was present with Hitler when he visited Madjanek. This man saw
one legged men marching. This man saw children executed with tampons
and prussic acid.

This is a mensch.

>> Except that most of what is supposed to be known about this
>>extermination program comes from him.

>Strange that there’s so little reference to him in the literature
>I’ve seen. Lucy Dawidowicz, for instance, mentions Gerstein’s name
>exactly once, and not as a source of information she’s using.

>>–the considerably less saintly
>>>Oskar Schindler comes to mind as one who actually accomplished a lot
>>>more, and who ever heard of Schindler outside survivor circles before
>>>Kenneally’s book was published? Where do you see Gerstein cited as an
>>>authority?

>> His widow heard of him and she has presented a distinctly different
>>opinion of someone you would call saintly.

>Reading comprehension, Matt. Read what I said. Get your kid to help you
>with the big words. I pointed out specifically that Schindler was far
>from saintly.

“Considerably less saintly” means

===

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Widow says SHINDLER’s list a lie
From: [email protected] (M Huber)
Date: 11 May 1996 11:32:37 GMT

Date: Thursday, 09-May-96 02:30 PM

From: E. Zundel \ Internet: ([email protected])
Subject: Shindler’s wife asserts film is a lie.

The widow of Oscar Shindler, about whom Steven spielberg mad a movie,
decries the film as a hoax and a lie.

“Emilie Pelzl Schindler, the ex-wife of Oscar Schindler, whose story is
told in the movie _Shindler’s List_, asserts that the events told about
in the film were deformed and that her husband never wrote the famous
list of Jews to be saved from Auschwitz.

In a book of recollections, _Memoirs_, introduced to the press in Buenos

Aires, Emilie Pelzl Schindler, a Czech citizen and now 89 years old,
indicates that her ex-husband never went to Auschwitz and that he could
never have saved the 1,300 Jews whose salvation is attributed to him.

The famous list would not have been written by her husband, but by a
certain “Goldfman” (sic). Factually, nobody even knows what became of
the Jews inscribed on that list.

===

means never having had a list or having been to Auschwitz. Excuse me
but I think there is some problem you are having communicating what you
mean in English.

But he has a tree. By god a real tree.

>> Hilberg for one but he said he simply did not report the ridiculous
>>parts of it.

>What is your source for the “ridiculous parts” of Gerstein’s testimony?
>Would it be too much to ask you to quote what Hilberg said, since I don’t
>have his book and I don’t trust you to interpret simple English sentences,
>considering that you were unable to understand my reference to Schindler
>in the current exchange?

Patience. I don’t keep everything I find on the Web. When I find it
again it will be here.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 43787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:38:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:39:33 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: I remember this one. It was when you were trying to deceive people
>: into believing there could be no HCN production from coke flue gases.

>The man never gives up. It’s amazing. Reading this sort of thing brings
>to mind phrases like “objective correlative.” It has been explained to
>Giwer any number of times that the “coke flue gases” that contain HCN
>are *not* from the burning of coke, but from the *production* of coke,
>which is done under oxygen free conditions. And yet he continues to
>accuse other people of being deceptive, when he is trying to make it
>look like “coke flue gases” have anything whatsoever to do with the
>crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

As you know, Sgt. Schutz, my one connection was “probably more” and yet
you continue to maintain that the flue gas as a source is really
distilation. You further pretend that a banked fire is not oxygen
starved which is all that is required.

Why do you continue in this charade?

Do you holohuggers have something to hide?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:58 PDT 1996
Article: 43792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Good On’im: Giwer is a fraud
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:45:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 10:46:28 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren), an amazing man who
>appears to live in a world populated by very short people, wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>># Hoess testififes to 3.5 million. Hoess testifies to Wolzec. Hoess
>># testifies to anything his Soviet interogators want his to say.

>>This is amazingly stupid, even for you. Hoess gives a (rather
>>accurate) figure of 1.2 million dead in Auschwitz, in his memoirs.

>>Why would the Soviets want him to give a figure far lower than
>>they have claimed? It doesn’t take an IQ of 163 to realize he
>>wasn’t told what to write.

>Is Dr. Keren _really_ suggesting (G-d forbid the thought) that
>Mr. Giwer’s IQ is NOT 163, as the Troll maintains?

>Is Dr. Keren _really_ suggesting (M-ron forbid the thought)
>that Mr. Giwer is, in reality, an ignorant, transparently
>inept little man, incapable of recognizing reality when he
>sees it?

>In short, is Dr. Keren suggesting that Mr. Giwer is
>unintelligent and demented?

>Good on’im, as the Aussies might say. Good on’im.

You folks certainly are not reading the mail. We have, 2.5 million. Of
course there are other sources of the truth, all different truths.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One for the Giwer – Hoess/Zyclon-B/Gas Chambers
From: [email protected] (Ken Lewis)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:11:35 GMT

Taken from the …—————————————————-
Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, by Dr. Louis L. Snyder, Professor of
History, The City College and The City University of New York. Paragon
House, New York, 1989. ISBN 1-55778-144-3
———————————————————————-

HOESS, RUDOLF FRANZ (1900-1947)… In 1934 he was attached to
the SS at Dachau … 1940 given rank of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer
in command at the Auschwitz camp. [He] was responsible for the
execution of more than 2.5 million inmates, not counting a half
million who were allowed to starve to death. He performed his
job so well that he was commended in a 1944 SS report that called
him “a true pioneer in this area because of his new ideas and
educational methods.” He was sentenced to death at Warsaw and was
executed several days later at Auschwitz.

At the fulcrum of the extermination system in Poland were the camps
at Auschwitz, Maidanek, Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor….
Auschwitz was the most notorious of the extermination centers. At the
height of its activity Auschwitz could house more the 100,000 men and
women and could provide for the gassing and incineration of 12,000
prisoners a day…. The .. gas chambers could accommodate 2,000
prisoners at one time. Rudolf Hoess testified at Nuremberg: “When I
set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Zyclon B which
was crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death-chamber
>from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people
in the death-chamber, depending on climatic conditions. We knew when
the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually
waited for half-an-hour before we opened the doors and removed the
bodies. After the bodies were removed our special commandos
[‘Sonderkommandos’ made up of prisoners who were partially trusted]
took off the rings and extracted the gold teeth of the corpses.”

“We tried to fool the victims into believing that they were going
through a delousing process. Of course, at times they realized our
true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties.
Frequently women would hide their children under their clothes, but we
found them and we sent the children to be exterminated. We were
required to carry out these exterminations in secrecy, but the foul
and nauseating stench from the continued burning of bodies permeated
the whole area and all the people living around Auschwitz knew what
was going on.”

“The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11.
Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded
cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown
in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over…. I must
even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass
extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither
Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be
carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how
it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a
procedure.” “KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer”,
second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:59 PDT 1996
Article: 43798 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: truer than true testimony
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:49:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:50:16 AM PDT 1996
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Gas Chamber Myths

Some former inmates and a few historians have claimed that Jews were put
to death in gas
chambers at Bergen-Belsen. For example, an “authoritative” work
published shortly after the end
of the war, A History of World War II, informed readers: “In Belsen,
[Commandant] Kramer kept an
orchestra to play him Viennese music while he watched children torn from
their mothers to be
burned alive. Gas chambers disposed of thousands of persons daily.”
(note 31)

In Jews, God and History, Jewish historian Max Dimont wrote of gassings
at Bergen-Belsen.
(note 32) A semi-official work published in Poland in 1981 claimed that
women and babies were
“put to death in gas chambers” at Belsen. (note 33)

In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported: (note 34)

In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the trial
of 45 men and
women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim [Auschwitz]
concentration camps,
said that 80,000 Jews, representing the entire ghetto of Lodz,
Poland, had been
gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.

Five decades after the camp’s liberation, British army Captain Robert
Daniell recalled seeing
“the gas chambers” there. (note 35)

Years after the war, Robert Spitz, a Hungarian Jew, remembered taking a
shower at Belsen in
February 1945: “… It was delightful. What I didn’t know then was that
there were other showers in
the same building where gas came out instead of water.” (note 36)

Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from
death as an
eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a Canadian
newspaper, the French-born
Peer claimed that he “was sent to the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least
six times.” The
newspaper account went on to relate: “Each time he survived, watching
with horror as many of the
women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer
doesn’t know how he
was able to survive.” In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused:
“Maybe children resist better,
I don’t know.” (Although Peer claimed that “Bergen-Belsen was worse than
Auschwitz,” he
acknowledged that he and his younger brother and sister, who were
deported to the camp in
1944, all somehow survived internment there.) (note 37)

Such gas chamber tales are entirely fanciful. As early as 1960,
historian Martin Broszat had
publicly repudiated the Belsen gassing story. These days no reputable
scholar supports it. (note
38)

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:42:59 PDT 1996
Article: 43801 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:43:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

We are agreed that Pressac, like Leuchter, has misrepresented his
credentials and should be completely dismissed. That is good to read.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:43:00 PDT 1996
Article: 43802 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:45:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <[email protected]>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>>> >:-)
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>>>pharmacist
>>>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>>>> course.
>>>>
>>>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>>
>>>The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
>>>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>>>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>>>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>>>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>>>innuendo.
>>
>> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>>standards.

>Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course
>Pressac knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence
>that Pressac doesn’t know what crystals are, we can discuss it.

>BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It’s sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer
>from a parody of Mr. Giwer.

You will note you acknowledged he did not know what a crystal is.

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:43:01 PDT 1996
Article: 43808 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A death warrant confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:27:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 250
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Rudolf Höss

Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss is often cited as one of the most
important witnesses to the
“Holocaust,” if not the most important. His affidavit and testimony were
quoted extensively both by
the prosecution and in the judgment of the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg. It was this
affidavit, and his later confirmation of its truthfulness, that laid the
foundation for and validated the
extermination story of Auschwitz. His affidavit read, in part: (note 1)

I, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höss, being first duly sworn, depose and
say as follows:

2. … I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate
that at least
2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing
and burning,
and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and
disease making a total
dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of
all persons
sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected
and used for
slave labor in the concentration camp industries.

When Höss testified at the Nuremberg trial, this portion of the
affidavit was read to him, and he
reaffirmed its accuracy: (note 2)

DR. KAUFFMANN: … From 1940 to 1943, you were the Commander of the
camp at
Auschwitz. Is that true?

Höss: Yes.

… COL. AMEN: I will omit the first paragraph and start with
Paragraph 2 [of Höss’
affidavit, the text of which is shown above].

“I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, [etc.] …” This is
all true, Witness?

Höss: Yes, it is.

This sworn testimony figured prominently in the decision of the
Tribunal. (note 3)

Since then, Höss’ testimony and affidavit have been heavily relied upon
by “Holocaust”
researchers from Raul Hilberg to Jean-Claude Pressac. Hundreds of
histories, testimonies, and
treatments of the Third Reich era quote Höss to show the brutality and
evilness of the Nazis.
Visitors to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum are confronted with a
plaque bearing Höss’
words upon entering the Museum.

We now know that Höss was beaten almost to death by Jewish members of
the British Field
Police upon capture and badly mistreated thereafter until he gave his
“affidavit” and “testimony.”
His wife and children were threated with deportation to Siberia. (note
4)

Clarke yelled: ‘What is your name?’

With each answer of ‘Franz Lang,’ Clarke’s hand crashed into the
face of his prisoner.
The fourth time that happened, Höss broke and admitted who he was.

The admission suddenly unleashed the loathing of the Jewish
sergeants in the
arresting party whose parents had died in Auschwitz following an
order signed by
Höss.

The prisoner was torn from the top bunk, the pyjamas ripped from
his body. He was
then dragged naked to one of the slaughter tables, where it seemed
to Clarke the
blows and screams were endless.

Eventually, the Medical Officer urged the Captain: ‘Call them off,
unless you want to
take back a corpse.’

… The party arrived by at Heide around three in the morning. The
snow was swirling
still, but the blanket was torn from Höss and he was made to walk
completely nude
through the prison yard to his cell.

It took three days to get a coherent statement out of him. But once
he started talking,
there was no holding him.

He also spoke of his mistreatment in his “autobiography.” (note 5)

I was taken to Heide where I was put in those very barracks from
which I had been
released by the British eight months earlier.

At my first interrogation, evidence was obtained by beating me. I
do not know what is
in the record, although I signed it. Alcohol and the whip were too
much for me. The
whip was my own, which by chance had got into my wife’s luggage. It
had hardly ever
touched my horse, far less the prisoners. Nevertheless, one of my
interrogators was
convinced that I had perpetually used it for flogging the
prisoners.

After some days I was taken to Minden-on-the-Weser, the main
interrogation center in
the British Zone. There I received further rough treatment at the
hands of the English
public prosecutor, a major.

The conditions in the prison accorded with this behavior.

Although historians were careful not to examine the implications of
Höss’ torture, some realized
the problems with Höss’ claims, and made adjustments accordingly:

Raul Hilberg referred to Höss’ statements both in his 1961 book The
Destruction of
European Jewry, and in his massive, three-volume second (and
supposedly definitive)
1985 edition.
Jean-Claude Pressac likewise relies heavily on Höss, but rather
than avoiding the trouble
spots, simply “corrects” Höss.
Stephen Paskuly, editor of a recently-released edition of Höss’
diary and other writings,
“corrects” Höss as well.
Eugen Kogon, in Nazi Mass Murder, “corrects” Höss’ memory of dates.

Historians today are finally admitting that Höss is an unreliable
witness. The figures of dead he
gave for Auschwitz are totally false. He swore that 2,500,000 people
were gassed and burned at
Auschwitz and a further half million died of disease for a total dead of
3,000,000. Today, the
figure of dead claimed for Auschwitz is 800,000 to 1,100,000, a figure
that is in danger of further
downward revisions. Höss also spoke of a concentration camp by the name
of “Wolzek,” which
does not and never did exist.

With the growing popularity of Holocaust revisionism, more and more
people from outside the
ranks of traditional historians are looking critically at Holocaust
claims, many for the first time.
Christopher Hitchens is one such person. After hearing that there were
questions about the Höss
testimony, Hitchens examined the revisionist position, and questioned
some leading Holocaust
scholars about the revisionist claims, Hitchens wrote: (note 6)

… The revisionists sent me an article by a Frenchman named Robert
Faurisson, which
claimed that Rudolf Höss, one of the commandants of Auschwitz, had
been tortured
by the British into confessing to a fantastic and unbelievable
number of murders. ‘I
declare herewith under oath that in the years 1941 to 1943, during
my tenure in office
as commandant of Auschwitz Concentration Camp, 2 million Jews were
put to death
by gassing and 1/2 million by other means.’ This statement,
specially mounted and
reproduced, is an important exhibit at the Holocaust Memorial.

I then got in touch with [Deborah] Lipstadt and [Christopher]
Browning for their
responses, which were surprising: ‘Höss was always a very weak and
confused
witness,’ said Browning, who has been an expert witness at trials
involving Auschwitz.
‘The revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order to
try and discredit the
memory of Auschwitz as a whole.’ And Professor Lipstadt directed me
to page 188 of
her book, which is quite a page. It says that the stories about the
Nazis making Jews
into soap are entirely untrue, and it also says that while the
memorial stone at
Auschwitz itself lists the number of victims — Jews and non-Jews
— at 4 million, the
truer figure is somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million. Since Höss was
the
commandant of the place for only part of its existence, this means
that — according to
the counter-revisionists — an important piece of evidence in the
Holocaust Memorial
is not reliable. A vertiginous sensation if you like.

‘It’s the same with the soap story,’ said Lipstadt. ‘I get protests
>from survivors, saying
that I shouldn’t admit it’s not true, because it gives ammunition
to the enemy. But I’m
only interested in getting at the truth.’ An old-fashioned concept.

But as we have shown, it is not the revisionists who have used Höss’
affidavit and testimony, but
rather the traditional “Holocaust” historians. It is only through the
efforts of the revisionists that we
have begun to catch a glimpse of the true value of Höss’ affidavit and
testimony. In a meeting
between French revisionist Robert Faurisson and Michael Berenbaum, an
official of the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum in September 1994, Berenbaum admitted to
Faurisson in front of
witnesses that the Höss quote on display at the Museum was misleading,
and that it would be
taken down.

Notes

1.Nazi Conspiracy And Aggression. Nuremberg, Germany; United States
Government
Printing Office, 1946. Volume VI, page 787. Translation of Document
3868-PS.
2.Trial Of The Major War Criminals. Nuremberg, Germany; United States
Government
Printing Office; 1947. Volume XI, Proceedings 8 April 1946-17 April
1946; page 396.
3.USSR-8, 3868-PS (USA-819), NI-034, 008-USSR. IMT, Vol. 39, pp. 241,
261.; IMT, vol. 7,
p. 589; NMT, vol. 5, p. 1131; NO-1210
4.Legions Of Death. (Rupert Butler. Great Britain: 1983. Hamlyn
Paperbacks; page 237).
5.Commandant Of Auschwitz. (London: 1959. Weidenfeld and Nicolson;
page 174.) Recently
re-released with additional material as Death Dealer by Prometheus
Books.
6.”Whose History Is It?” (Christopher Hitchens. Vanity Fair, December
1993; pages 117).

Send all questions and comments to [email protected]

Back to Main Menu

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 08:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 43810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those Polish spies again
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:08:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Anyone want to explain this one?
>>
>> ” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>>people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>>then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>>way; there they were killed. ” IMT VII – p.576-577.

>Sure:

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
>sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
>apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Now there is a response worth keeping. Here I PROVE by eyewitness
testimony that people were electrocute by those mean old Nazis and the
best you can do is recite the mantra.

You should be thanking me for proving another of those horrible Nazi
attrocities.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 13:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 43830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-tokyo.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Nazis
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:39:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
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Working together with both Commandant Kramer and chief inmate
representative Kuestermeier,
Colonel Hanns Schmidt responded by arranging for the local volunteer
fire department to provide
water. He also saw to it that food supplies were brought to the camp
>from abandoned rail cars.
Schmidt later recalled that Kramer “did not at all impress one as a
criminal type. He acted like an
upright and rather honorable man. Neither did he strike me as someone
with a guilty conscience.
He worked with great dedication to improve conditions in the camp. For
example, he rounded up
horse drawn vehicles to bring food to the camp from rail cars that had
been shot up.” (note 17)

“I was swamped,” Kramer later explained to incredulous British military
interrogators: (note 18)

The camp was not really inefficient before you [British and
American forces] crossed
the Rhine. There was running water, regular meals of a kind — I
had to accept what
food I was given for the camp and distribute it the best way I
could. But then they
suddenly began to send me trainloads of new prisoners from all over
Germany. It was
impossible to cope with them. I appealed for more staff, more food.
I was told that this
was impossible. I had to carry on with what I had.

Then as a last straw the Allies bombed the electric plant that
pumped our water.
Loads of food were unable to reach the camp because of the Allied
fighters. Then
things really got out of hand. During the last six weeks I have
been helpless. I did not
even have sufficient staff to bury the dead, let alone segregate
the sick … I tried to get
medicines and food for the prisoners and I failed. I was swamped. I
may have been
hated, but I was doing my duty.

Kramer’s clear conscience is also suggested by the fact that he made no
effort to save his life by
fleeing, but instead calmly awaited the approaching British forces,
naively confident of decent
treatment. “When Belsen Camp was eventually taken over by the Allies,”
he later stated, “I was
quite satisfied that I had done all I possibly could under the
circumstances to remedy the
conditions in the camp.” (note 19)

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 13:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 43831 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A camp is a camp of course of course
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:43:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Brutal Mistreatment

On April 15, 1945, Belsen’s commanders turned over the camp to British
troops, who lost no time
mistreating the SS camp personnel. The Germans were beaten with rifle
butts, kicked, and
stabbed with bayonets. Most were shot or worked to death. (note 22)

British journalist Alan Moorehead described the treatment of some of the
camp personnel shortly
after the takeover: (note 23)

As we approached the cells of the SS guards, the [British]
sergeant’s language
become ferocious. “We had had an interrogation this morning,” the
captain said. ‘I’m
afraid they are not a pretty sight.’ … The sergeant unbolted the
first door and … strode
into the cell, jabbing a metal spike in front of him. “Get up,” he
shouted. “Get up. Get
up, you dirty bastards.” There were half a dozen men lying or half
lying on the floor.
One or two were able to pull themselves erect at once. The man
nearest me, his shirt
and face spattered with blood, made two attempts before he got on
to his knees and
then gradually on to his feet. He stood with his arms stretched out
in front of him,
trembling violently.

“Come on. Get up,” the sergeant shouted [in the next cell]. The man
was lying in his
blood on the floor, a massive figure with a heavy head and
bedraggled beard … “Why
don’t you kill me?” he whispered. “Why don’t you kill me? I can’t
stand it any more.”
The same phrases dribbled out of his lips over and over again.
“He’s been saying that
all morning, the dirty bastard,” the sergeant said.

Commandant Kramer, who was vilified in the British and American press as
“The Beast of
Belsen” and “The Monster of Belsen,” was put on trial and then executed,
along with chief
physician Dr. Fritz Klein and other camp officials. At his trial,
Kramer’s defense attorney, Major
T.C.M. Winwood, predicted: “When the curtain finally rings down on this
stage Josef Kramer will,
in my submission, stand forth not as ‘The Beast of Belsen’ but as ‘The
Scapegoat of Belsen’.”
(note 24)

In an “act of revenge,” the British liberators expelled the residents of
the nearby town of Bergen,
and then permitted camp inmates to loot the houses and buildings. Much
of the town was also set
on fire. (note 25)

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 13:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 43879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:53:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> He is a pharamacist who never took a chemistry course in his life.

>>>So what?

>> That sort of thing seems to matter when it comes to Leuchter. Beyond
>>that it is difficult to imagine that being possible. Perhaps another
>>fraud? Or does it only matter when it is someone smashing icons?

>I can see that this thread is destroyed. This subject has nothing to
>do with the subject of this thread.

His book was cited as a reference. By the rules of holocaustism it is
legitimate to attack the credentials of the author while ignoring the
content of the work. Where have you been to have missed that?

>>>> Why is it that the things needed to support the fanciful stories are
>>>>never to be found?

>>>Who says this is the case other than yourself?

>> I am far from the only one. Anyone who takes an honest look will say
>>the same thing.

>Exactly, so this has nothing to do with the present subject of this
>thread.

So? Are you so new to the medium that you think the name of a thread
means anything? If so, learn better. There is no necessary connection.

>>>> The only drawing of the wire mesh basket at Nizkor has nothing on it to
>>>>connect to any bolt holes. But you know that.

>>>Who says it has to?

>> How is it anchored to bolts in the floor if there is no place for the
>>bolts to attach to the basket? Perhaps you will say that you can
>>imagine a way but refuse to tell us about your imaginings.

>I don’t have to imagine, idiot. “Zyklon B was distributed in the gas
>chamber through four introduction columns custom-made in the metalwork
>shops of the camp. They were shaped like pillars and made of two wire
>grids with a moveable core. Cross sections of the pillars, 3m high,
>formed a square, each measuring 70 cm. *****Fastened to the floor.
>they passed through the ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys
>closed with a concrete cover equipped with two handles.***** (*****
>this notifier is mine.) _Anatomy_ page 167. F. Piper’s footnotes says
>that this information is from ASAM(Archives of the Auschwitz-Birkenau
>Museum, Trial of Hoess, vol2. card 99-101; vol 11, cards 116, 130; vol
>25, card 33 testimony of former prisoner Michael Kula, employed at the
>metal shop where the wire-grid shafts were manufactured; also the
>testimony of Schlomo Dragon and H. Tauber.

>I guess to overcome this wealth of evidence one needs to find fault
>with the testimony. The ball is in your court.

Excuse me but there is a drawing on Nizkor. There is no place to attach
anything to it. As we know eyewitness will testify to anything. Even
Hoess testified to personally witnessing the first gassing wearing a gas
mask. Some day you will have to admit testimony is whatever the victors
wanted it to be.

>>>>>I don’t think they’ll approve the digging up of the site. What’s wrong
>>>>>with the testimony provided about the design and the description of
>>>>>Krema II on page 167 of _Anatomy_?

>>>> What is wrong with seeing if there is anything like what the story
>>>>describes?

>>>When the thing blown up there isn’t much left to rely on. So making
>>>assumptions about stuff no longer existing is more fanciful than it is
>>>history.

>> Nonsense. It is all right there just in pieces.

>No, it is not all right there. My otherstanding is that much was
>destroyed and removed from the site. I can’t recall what, but it is
>all not there.

You understanding is in direct contradiction to a picture of it right
where it fell. That picture is on Nizkor.

>> All an explosion does
>>is break things. It does not make the pieces vanish.

>Really?

Yes. Does that surprise you?

>> So in fact if
>>they were ever there, they are still there.

>What they?

Your bolts.

>> All someone has to do is
>>find them and you folks have some physical evidence,

>We don’t need physical evidence. We have the testimony agreement
>between SS and prisioner. We have plans for the site that are covered
>in the above mentioned book which you won’t read.

Your complete lack of physical evidence is what makes the stories such
obvious fabrications. Your stories do not agree, they contradict not
only each other but physical law.

>> perhaps the first.
>>But then you need to find a wire basket with anchoring points for the
>>bolts you talk about.

>Don’t need to. Who says that that is where it was anchored? You?

No. I said WITH anchoring pionts. The basket pictured on Nizkor has
none. I can not add anchoring points. Neither can you.

You
>are a troll. I’d rather have testimony that says it was anchored that
>way. This appears to be another assumption pulled out of someone’s
>ass. Anyway, go away fly.

You can not save your fantasy that way. There are no anchoring points.
No matter how many people say it was anchored, there is no way to do so.
That is a fact. If you don’t like that, tell Nizkor to hide the picture
so you can continue to claim there is something that does not exist.

>>>>>What’s left of it, you mean. What’s wrong with the testimony provided
>>>>>about the design and the description of Krema II on page 167 of
>>>>>_Anatomy_?

>>>> What is wrong with seeing if it matches reality? Or does a tourist
>>>>attraction not want to risk the loss of revenues?

>>>Becaise there is no need. The plans and testimony are enough. So you
>>>tell me what is wrong with the testimonies of designers and
>>>eyewitnesses.

>> Your fancied bolts do not appear on any plans. There is no testimony to
>>support your fanciful bolts. Therefore it would help to find them and
>>the right basket.

>I wasn’t talking of bolts, idiot, one of your denier pals was talking
>about bolts. Then when someone says that the pillars were attached to
>the floor, may he meant they were held up by dead Jewish bodies, eh?

There is nothing on the drawing to serve as anchoring points. Sorry.
There simply is nothing there. A million people can say it was anchored
but without anchoring points they are all wrong.

>[snipped off topic Turin crap]

It must have been too close an analogy for you. I thought faith in the
fantastic was a quite good analogy.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 14:32:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43882 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:14:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 1:16:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:00:43 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>Oh, you mean like actually reading the sources they cite instead of
>>>doing something really unoriginal like cutting and pasting from denier
>>>web pages?

>> You actually believe they are not doing a cut and paste job? They are
>>occasionally even labeled as such in that the source gives its original
>>source. Thus the source used has already predigested it.

>Seems to me that some people also read books and enter quotations from
>them. You should try it; they don’t bite, you know.

It is good to see you agree they are doing what I am doing but that you
only find a problem with it when I do it. Why is that?

>>>> Until then, Keren’s mythical Polish spies do not explain the lies about
>>>>steaming people to death. Of course, if Keren is willing to post to
>>>>your standards that will be a different matter. So far he has simply
>>>>invented his Polish spies.

>>>Yeah, yeah. “I’ll answer questions when you answer questions.” Not
>>>terribly original.
>>
>> I know. The holohuggers started it.

>Wow, that’s really mature, Mr. Giwer: “He started it!”

It is also a statement of fact. You appear to have a problem with facts
also.

>What next in the way of argumentation? “Doubt it!” “You’re mental!”

The holohuggers have used those also. Do you have a problem with that?
If so, tell them, not me.

>>>> BTW: IF in fact you do know the answers you would be doing the subject
>>>>a great service were you to post the answers. Why do you not? Would
>>>>you rather play games?

>>>You mean you don’t know the context of the quote? Well, colour me
>>>surprised!

>> You mean you do not either which is not surprising.

>Either? Either? Since the “either” of me is you, I take this as your
>admission that you don’t have clue about whether the claims about
>steam chambers were from an eyewitness in this instance. You don’t
>have a clue whether the “Polish spies” in this particular case were
>standing five feet from the gas chamber or 327 miles away. You don’t
>have clue where your quote came from except that it was a true truth
>you clipped from a denier web page.

I know they were close enough to report a boiler that did not exist. Do
you have anything else?

>> Of course I expect
>>people were expected to believe you really did have it in front of you
>>at the time you posted as you said. Do you have the complete set or did
>>you just happen to have the volumes of interest?

>I have several volumes of the blue series out of the library at any
>given time, especially those which are denier favorites. But I’m not
>going to give you a list of which volumes those are, because I want
>you to be really cautious about your true truths.

It is good to see you just happened to have the volumes of interest and
will always just happen to have the volumes of interest.

>> Don’t worry, the
>>holohuggers will believe you. They will believe anything.

>Of course they will because I am honest, and you are not. I am also
>kind, generous, funny, and likeable, and you are not.

You forgot modest.

>Well you are kind of funny, but not in the same way.

>[snip]

>>>C’mon, Mr. Giwer, this is a “gimme.”
>>
>> Not very because it is a completely fabricated story. Terracotta is a
>>bit much. But then there is the boiler and the piping thrown in for a
>>little more verasimilitude to this story.
>>
>> I am simply pointing out the selective rejection of the incredible story
>>of steaming while accepting the incredible story of gassing even though
>>the gassing stories contain things more glaring than the “terracotta”
>>nonsense. After all, it is possible that baked clay tiles were used.
>>The gassing stories contain many physical impossibilities.

>Yeah, yeah. Tell it to someone who might believe you. Like Moran and
>Beaulieu. Gosh, what an amen corner. You must be proud.

There is a difference here. If they do not believe me, I could care
less. But if I don’t believe a holohugger the holohuggers get all bent
out of shape and start calling names. They have such an emotional load
in preserving their beliefs that it is clear they have something else
motivating them.

The closest comparison is medeval Christians rooting out heresy to
prevent the wrath of their god from being visited upon them.

In their case, they imagine they are saving democracy or western
civilization or some such.

It is all the same thing.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 43885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:35:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:36:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:27:07 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:16:01 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>[full text of the Degesch manual deleted. But not to worry: Mr. Giwer
>>>will certainly post it many more times]
>>
>> No, I will add just the relvent parts this time.
>>
>>Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War
>>Crimes
>>
>>>>II. METHOD OF USING PRUSSIC ACID
>>>>
>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>
>>Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
>>Moravia in Prague.

>Oh, no! Not again! You are making this too easy.

>You *do* know what the Reich-Protektorat was, *don’t* you?

>And surely you are not suggesting that the Health Institution would
>steer the SS wrong about how to use a dangerous product like
>Zyklon-Blausaeure by telling them that wood chips resembled blue
>silica pellets.

If they did not like the SS I am certain they would. But then, there is
no indication the SS ever used this document. After all they were
buying in large quantities direct from Degesh. They had a direct source
of information.

However the subject was the Degesh publication which makes not mention
of this Erco. And there is still nothing but assertion as to what it
is.

>[snip]

>>>Please tell us how you manage to hold these contradictory claims to be
>>>true truths. Please explain how the Holy Church of Revisionism
>>>resolves these contradictions.

>> You will have to take this up with other than myself. The manufacturere
>>does not mention you blue things.

>Oh, stop, silly man. I am not a blue thing at all.

The Degesh publication still does not mention it. I can not change
that. You can not change that.

>> I regret you have difficulty in keeping this straight.

>Hee. The only thing I’m having trouble keeping straight is a straight
>face.

The Degesh publication still does not mention it. I can not change
that. You can not change that.

>> Do you really need to see the Degesh pub again? BTW: I did not say
>>that it was complete. It does appear the health institute document is
>>complete.

>You do know who they were, right? Health Institution of the
>Reich-Protektorat? You’re just pulling my leg, aren’t you?

The Degesh publication still does not mention it. I can not change
that. You can not change that.

And of course that was the subject. I have at least posted what I can
find of both documents. The holohuggers refused to post the Degesh pub
even as they were saying it supported their position. Now we know why.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:37:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:38:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>>Which true truth is Mr. Giwer peddling today?
>>
>> You, too, are confusing the Degesh pub with the public health document
>>from Prague. As we know, the SS did not buy from Prague.

>Is it Mr. Giwer’s argument that this public health document is a
>forgery?

I have no argument. I have the clearly true and correct statement that
the Degesh publication does not mention “Erco” whatever that is supposed
to be.

I can not put it into the Degesh pub. You can not put it into the
Degesh pub. Sorry.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:09 PDT 1996
Article: 43889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein’s confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:46:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:47:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>> And when he said that Hitler was at Madjanek? When he saw one legged
>>men marching? When he implied the human body would fit into a 15 inch
>>cube? When he said children were killed with prussic acid on a tampon?

>I’ve no idea what Gerstein said, Matt, since you can provide no source
>more substantive than “the Web”.

Is there suddenly some standard that applies only to me but not to
holhuggers? Why?

BTW, one-legged men can walk, with the
>aid of prostheses. (Prostheses are not regarded as an item of clothing,
>and so yes, a man with a prosthesis can be regarded as “naked”. Just
>wanted to anticipate the usual complete-waste-of-time whine on your part.)

Marching was what was of interest in that one. Want to get on to the
tampon and prussic acid claim next?

>> Get over it. He is typical of the testimony. The only reason he has so
>>many glaring pieces of nonsense is that he was one of the most prolific.

>Since you can give no credible source, nor even a URL, for Gerstein’s
>testimony, you have no idea what he said.

Deal with it.

>> Excuse me but Gerstein claimed to speak from personal knowledge.

>Quotes. sources.

Already posted as you know.

>> What it means is that Gerstein did not write them and we have no idea if
>>he was credible or not.

>Oh. So your saying that *Gersten’s* “confession” was “obviously phony”
>actually referred to documents you believe to have been forged under
>Gerstein’s name. Kind of like indicting Hitler on the basis of the
>forged Hitler Diaries.

Precisely the point. Testimony on gassing is as forged and false as
testimony on steaming, electrocution and vacuum chambers. You have to
get used to that.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 43892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:51:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:52:26 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>>## There were gas chambers in Germany proper and Austria. This is
>>>>## beyond dispute; the gas chambers are still there.

>>>># They are standardize delousing chambers used for clothing, mattresses
>>>># and the like.

>>>>It would be nice if you offered some proof for this claim. Surely,
>>>>someone with an IQ of 163 should realize he can’t just make such
>>>>statements without proving them.

>>>This Giwer weed doesn’t have to prove anything. He sprouts up
>>>everywhere and shows himself by posting his polution in every thread.
>>>Lies are cheap so what the hell, post away. We just keep pulling this
>>>weed out, but it doesn’t care, for it can sprout anywhere.

>> I would have expected you folks who have so carefully studied everything
>>about the subject would know about these delousing chambers. There were
>>so many in use that Degesh claimed it had deloused the possessions of 25
>>million people.

>You cite for this is?

For the moment lets just say it is from another Degesh publication that
I will avoid posting as long at the holohuggers refused to post the
first one. As a matter of fact, in reciprocity, I will leave it for a
holohugger to find and post this one as I had to do for the first one.

Are those not the rules in this conference?

>> But if you really believe there were people type gas chambers in
>>Germany, take it up with Simon Wiesenthal. He shares my opinion on the
>>matter.

>Your cite for this is? It had better say that Sim agrees with Matt.
>HaHa!

Since you missed it the first time around, here it is again, just for
you. Note the source.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No gas chamber in Germany
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:47:37 GMT

If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
know he lies a lot.

4/19/82:
WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
Buchenwald for the Duluth
News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
gas chambers, which
were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
Germany, and as we
all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
Wiesenthal, Books
and Bookmen, April, 1975).

=====

>> It is beginning to appear you folks never read anything but holohugger
>>sources.

>Jealous? You don’t seem to read at all!

And you folks do not read the other side. So what is the difference? A
danger to your faith?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:09:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:32711 can.politics:52382 talk.politics.misc:392225 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1425 alt.revisionism:43895 alt.censorship:85436 comp.org.eff.talk:66188 can.general:80307

“Ronald C. Schoedel” wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> It is like putting up a porn site and then bragging about the
>>hits. It sells in some markets.

>The problem though, is that McOyVay’s website is sooooooo sluggish and poorly
>put together, I can never get through. Even when I try to check the crap
>URL’s he posts, I can’t get through. Now, there is no way he can say it’s because
>so many other people are getting through. I get through to the website at
>cnn.com just fine numerous times a day, and somehow I think more people are
>checking cnn.com than zinkor.crap. The truth is, Kenny’s website (or lack
>thereof) is lousily put-together, looks like a first-grader’s demonstration
>of what he learned in HTML today, and contained nothing of any real substance last
>time I did get through.

It is unexplainably slow. Almost as though they were feeding it with a
28.8 rather than a T1 line. But if you really want to take a look
around, run your browser in the background while answering the mail.

>>>Tsk-tsk..so, is Nutty McVay a gas jockey! At his age…well, in defense of
>>>that, at least the loser isn’t so lame as to be collecting welfare.
>>
>> At least it is honest work. What I can fault is his apparent
>>reluctance to discuss it. If he were a pimp I could understand.

>Prior to ringing up slurpees and plunging toilets and pumping gas, Ken McVay GSA
>was collecting government money, according to someone else who said he said it himself
>somewhere. I would check and get the exact quote, but I can’t get through to that
>damn crappy website of his.

>As for his apparent reluctance to discuss it: that’s because all his friends here
>continually make fun of so-called “white trash”. His friends here mock menial labour.
>Kenny McVay is the epitome of both. Not to mention a childish, whiny liar. He asks
>his 20 questions game, and when he doesn’t like the answers given him,. he whines and
>pouts and sends the same 20 questions another gazillion times…all the meanwhile,
>IGNORING anything asked of him.

Don’t be so hard on him. It took him years to put the questions
together. You can’t expect variety from someone like that.

>As for being a pimp…actually, Kenny is nothing more than a PROSTITUTE, to be
>honest. A white-trash, race-traitor, gas-pumping, candy-bar ringing-upping paid
>prostitute of the synagogue boys.

>>>A website! Hell, our gang just got our server up and running, selected target
>>>markets and have a crew of tele-marketers all ready to go. The poor bastard,
>>>now I can see why he is so bitter.

>And a slow, poorly-designed website at that…

>> My son and a friend got an entire ISP up in less than a month
>>while doing their primary jobs at the shop. I didn’t know how to spell
>>HTML last August and my site went up in October. I have know idea why
>>they think they have accomplished anything.

>If they weren’t doing this for “the chosen people” no one would pay any attention
>ti the Zinkor project. It offers nothing of worth. it’s only because it’s on
>behalf of “twelve millions souls ruthlessly destroyed by Adolf Hitler” (a number
>even more laughable than the already over-inflated false figure of 6 million…
>talking about cooking the numbers, whew boy!) that anyone even recognizes the lousy
>site.

>Ken McVay GSA’s (a/k/a Ken McVay OBC – Odour of British Columbia) website has
>accomplished nothing other than bilking a few dumb souls out of some money, wasting
>internet bandwidth, and actually contributing to the cause of “anti-semitism”!

Give the server, they are not wasting much bandwidth. They might as well
be using a normal phone line.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein’s wholely credible confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:26:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:27:26 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>> The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
>>Exposure has swung into action.

>And when is the IAHE going to give us a source? Even, Yog help us, a URL?

The source is his confessions of course. What is it you are having
trouble reading?

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 16:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!usc!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism,alt.radio.talk,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:15:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] wrote:

>> >Matt, the holocaust is historical fact;
>>
>> Define it.
>>
>> just because it gives your
>> >political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>> >happened will make it so. That is called “denial”.
>>
>> It is called pointing out there has never been any evidence for
>gassing
>> or much of anything else regarding the popular fantasies comprising the
>> undefined holocaust.

>I thought I had met stupidity before but I guess I haven’t til this remark.

>Hey stupid, go read the history books. Make a trip to the camps. Look at the
>photos taken of it. Talk to surviors of it and to there families.

I said evidence, not testimony. If I were to believe in testimony I
would believe in UFO abductions and ritual, satanic child abuse. But I
guess you believe in those things too.

>> I remember an old
>> >soldier, a tanker with 1st Armored Division in WWII I think, who told
>> >me of what he saw after they took out the guard towers at one
>> >particular death camp.
>>
>> Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
>> Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?

>And who in the hell is Wiesenthal? Guess that’s a part of history I haven’t
>read? And why do you feel this Wiesenthal is correct and not the rest of
>what is available as fact.

You have never heard of Simon Wiesenthal? Why not try
www.wiesenthal.com and see who he is? He is a great nazi hunter who
also appears to be a master of subborning perjury.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ya gotta love this Simon guy
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:45:00 GMT

Looks like he is good at subborning perjury also.

4/13/83:
The Toronto Star recounts the story of Frank Walus, who was
fingered by Simon Wiesenthal
first as a Gestapo collaborator, then later as a member of the
Gestapo. Twelve
eyewitnesses swore Walus was a mass-murderer who had stomped a
pregnant Jew to
death. Forty eyewitnesses placed Walus at the concentration camp in
Kielce, Poland,
during the war. At the trial, however, it was established that
Walus was never at the camp,
never a member of the Gestapo, never a member of the SS, and that
in fact all of
Wiesenthal’s charges against Walus were fabrications. This prompted
the US Justice
Department to drop all charges, issue an apology, and pay Walus
$34,000 to help offset his
legal fees.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No gas chamber in Germany
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:47:37 GMT

If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
know he lies a lot.

4/19/82:
WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
Buchenwald for the Duluth
News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
gas chambers, which
were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
Germany, and as we
all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
Wiesenthal, Books
and Bookmen, April, 1975).

=====

>> They raced through the gate, expecting to find
>> >imprisoned Allied soldiers – which they did, but most of them were
>> >civilians, and ALL of them were treated in a manner which, in his
>> >words, ” You’d shoot a man for treating his dog that way.” . He was
>> >having a beer in the VFW in Killen, Texas, and I saw the look in his
>> >eyes. He had seen his buddies blown to bits before his eyes, he had
>> >seen entire cities reduced to rubble, but he wasn’t prepared for the
>> >death camps. So, to those who deny that it happened – Sorry, no sale.
>> >Memory lasts for quite awhile.
>>
>> Sorry, but he was never in a death camp according to Simon Wiesenthal.
>
>Who in the hell is Simon Wiesenthal???? And how the heck does he know if
>someone was at the death camp? And if this Wiesenthal claims it never
>happened than why are you stating that Wiesenthal says the tanker was never in
>a death camp? It must have happened than!

May I suggest you invest in a program. You can’t tell the players
without a program.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those Polish spies again
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:09:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 15 11:10:27 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >Certainly you would not wish to leave the impression that you did
>> >something so unoriginal as to copy this from a denier web page and
>> >believe it to be a true truth simply because it appeared on a denier
>> >web page.
>>
>> >Is the quote from the red, green, or blue series?
>> >Is the quote evidence given in testimony, or is it a document?
>> >Does it form part of an indictment?
>> >To which defendant does the quote pertain?
>>
>> >You have claimed that each of the four prosecuting nations at
>> >Nuremburg had exclusive jurisdiction over the investigation of crimes
>> >within their respective sectors. Since the source of this particular
>> >remark is ultimately Polish, and presented by the Soviet Union, can
>> >you explain how they could possibly know anything about Belsen which
>> >was in the British sector?
>>
>> And I have the same response once more. It is up to holohugger
>> standards.
>>
>> Do you have a problem with that standard?

>Notice the craven avoidance of the Giwer-Troll in answering Mr. Morris’s
>questions about the Giwer-Troll’s post? Could this be because, as Mr.
>Morris intimates, the Giwer-Troll was posting bullshit from a denier
>website?

As I said, holohuggers would actually believe him when he claimed to
have the documents in front of him.

Thank you for demonstrating holohugger gullibility.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:10 PDT 1996
Article: 43906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:31:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]zilker.net> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >> The only thing that was “unacceptable” from the original movie was the
>> >> preview trailer for Part II where the Jews in Space were chasing Muslim
>> >> ships with
>> >>
>> >> Torah
>> >> Torah
>> >> Torah
>> >>
>> >> on the screen.
>> >>
>> >> Some jokes even Mel Brooks is not permitted to make.
>>
>> >Some jokes Mel Brook’s *didn’t* make. How, exactly, where you able to identify
>> >those rather generic spacecraft as Muslim?
>>
>> >Did it involve the same process you used to alter the Huey Long quote?
>>
>> It was in the theater release. Not included in any other release. It
>> was a bit too close to home.

>And your proof of this is…? I’ve seen “History of the World Part I” and
>do not recall anything on that trailer that identifies those ships as
>Muslim.

In the theater release there was a shot of the crew dressed in the
classic sheik garb. It was contrasted to the Hassidic garb. You must
have been too young to see the original.

There was something else I can not remember but you will notice that
that the scene of the ships they are attacking is almost too brief to be
seen. There was something on the outside or in their shape that hinted
at what to expect. That shot was longer.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:10 PDT 1996
Article: 43911 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:35:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: And how did harrassing my family accomplish that?

>Nobody harassed your family. And even if they had, by your own stated
>standards of proof, there is no way you can prove it.

That is of course true. But then my family knows of it. And of course
friends know about it.

And that is what all of you holohuggers need to learn. You could have
stuck with me. But as it is you have informed many others of your less
than savory tactics.

Perhaps one might say you folks have prejudiced your case for many
people into the future.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43912 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:26:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklrb$t2[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:27:52 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>: school chemistry?

>I am not even going to try to translate this statement from Giwerian into
>English. I just want to point out that the very idea that Myshkin, who
>to all appearances never took high school chemistry himself, is
>criticizing other people’s knowledge of chemistry, had me ROTFL.

Try it this way. Greenie excuses him, not me.

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

===

So you see, you have Greenie’s word that the man does not understand
what is a crystal.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:32:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.

>Document NI-9912 (Pressac, p. 18) mentions “small blue cubes (Erco)”
>as one of the carriers.

>This is the carrier you said did not exist, right?

Confusion reigns. This is from a Prague publid health organization, not
>from the Degesh pub. Degesh does not mention selling it in this form.

># I can not change that. You can not change that.

>Perhaps you can change other things? The fact you’re a
>compulsive liar, for starters?

Perhaps you can stop lying that the Prague pub is the Degesh pub some
day.

I doubt it but give it a try.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:59:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Here I keep seeing it said this guy Giwer is a troll and then he
>unleashes a cornucopia, a rapid fire, a whole volley, a flood, a
>hurricane, a 100 mega-ton series of articles that just about washes up
>the Holocaust story.

And I have to thank the holohuggers for encouraging me to do so. Were
it not for all the little people behind me … (insert your favorite
acceptance speech here.)

BTW: I am prepared to do a Keren every week. I have saved them all.
After all, that is not spamming by the holohugger definition.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 19:01:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43922 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Now you know why
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:47:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:49:02 PM PDT 1996

Israel Shahak’s Jewish History, Jewish Religion

Foreword by Gore Vidal [p. vii-viii]

Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional
historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had
been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for
president. Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in
cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train. ‘That’s why
our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.’ As neither Jack
nor I was an antisemite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took
this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene
corruption of American politics.

Unfortunately, the hurried recognition of Israel as a state has
resulted in forty-five years of murderous confusion, and the destruction
of what Zionist fellow travellers thought would be a pluralistic state –
home to its native population of Muslims, Christians and Jews, as well
as a future home to peaceful European and American Jewish immigrants,
even the ones who affected to believe that the great realtor in the sky
had given them, in perpetuity, the lands of Judea and Sameria. Since
many of the immigrants were good socialists in Europe, we assumed that
they would not allow the new state to become a theocracy, and that the
native Palestinians could live with them as equals. This was not meant
to be. I shall not rehearse the wars and alarms of that unhappy region.
But I will say that the hasty invention of Israel has poisoned the
political and intellectual life of the USA, Israel’s unlikely patron.

Unlikely, because no other minority in American history has ever
hijacked so much money from the American taxpayers in order to invest in
a ‘homeland’. It is as if the American taxpayer had been obliged to
support the Pope in his reconquest of the Papal States simply because
one third of our people are Roman Catholic. Had this been attempted,
there would have been a great uproar and Congress would have said no.
But a religious minority of less than two per cent has bought or
intimidated seventy senators (the necessary two thirds to overcome an
unlikely presidential veto) while enjoying support of the media.

In a sense, I rather admire the way that the Israel lobby has gone
about its business of seeing that billions of dollars, year after year,
go to make Israel a ‘bulwark against communism’. Actually, neither the
USSR nor communism was ever much of a presence in the region. What
America did manage to do was to turn the once friendly Arab world
against us. Meanwhile, the misinformation about what is going on in the
Middle East has got even greater and the principal victim of these gaudy
lies – the American taxpayer to one side – is American Jewry, as it is
constantly bullied by such professional terrorists as Begin and Shamir.
Worse, with a few honorable exceptions, Jewish-American intellectuals
abandoned liberalism for a series of demented alliances with the
Christian (antisemtic) right and with the Pentagon-industrial complex.
In 1985 one of them blithely wrote that when Jews arrived on the
American scene they ‘found liberal opinion and liberal politicians more
congenial in their attitudes, more sensitive to Jewish concerns’ but now
it is in the Jewish interest to ally with the Protestant fundamentalists
because, after all, “is there any point in Jews hanging on dogmatically,
hypocritically, to their opinions of yesteryear?’ At this point the
American left split and those of us who criticised our onetime Jewish
allies for misguided opportunism, were promptly rewarded with the ritual
epithet ‘antisemite’ or ‘self-hating Jew’.

Fortunately, the voice of reason is alive and well, and in Israel, of
all places. From Jerusalem, Israel Shahak never ceases to analyse not
only the dismal politics of Israel today but the Talmud itself, and the
effect of the entire rabbinical tradition on a small state that the
right-wing rabbinate means to turn into a theocracy for Jews only. I
have been reading Shahak for years. He has a satirist’s eye for the
confusions to be found in any religion that tries to rationalise the
irrational. He has a scholar’s sharp eye for textual contradictions. He
is a joy to read on the great Gentile-hating Dr Maimonides.

Needless to say, Israel’s authorities deplore Shahak. But there is not
much to be done with a retired professor of chemistry who was born in
Warsaw in 1933 and spent his childhood in the concetration camp at
Belsen. In 1945, he came to Israel; served in the Israeli military; did
not become a Marxist in the years when it was fashionable. He was – and
still is -a humanist who detests imperialism whether in the names of the
God of Abraham or of George Bush. Equally, he opposes with great wit and
learning the totalitarian strain in Judaism. Like a highly learned
Thomas Paine, Shahank illustrates the prospect before us, as well as the
long history behind us, and thus he continues to reason, year after
year. Those who heed him will certainly be wiser and – dare I say? –
better. He is the latest, if not the last, of the great prophets.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:16:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43936 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Guns and Liberty
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:15:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 157
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Dave Anderson) wrote:

>[email protected] (Scott Marsden) wrote:

>>Truth be told, a person is safer from being shot with a gun in rural
>>America than they are in urban Canada. If gun laws make all the
>>difference, why is this so?

>Simple, gun laws only affect the sane and law abiding and have no
>effect on those who would misuse having a gun. In otherwords the law
>is not the panacea it was supposed to be and has little effect on
>crime besides making it safer for the criminal.

>Dave

The following press release was issued May 2, 1995:

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
America’s Aggressive Civil Rights Organization
Tax Exempt under IRS Code Section 501 (c) (3)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Aaron Zelman, Executive Director: (414) 769-0760

JEWISH PRO-FIREARMS GROUP
CHALLENGES ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE
TO OPEN DEBATE ON MILITIAS AND GUN CONTROL

May 2, 1995 — “The Anti-Defamation League is driving the
post-Oklahoma feeding frenzy on militia groups and by doing so
has libeled every American who wants to uphold the civil right to
be armed,” says Aaron Zelman, a Conservative Jew, Vietnam-era
veteran, and federally-licensed firearms dealer who heads the
4,000-member Milwaukee-based organization, Jews for the
Preservation of Firearms Ownership. “JPFO — which has shown
publicly that ‘gun control’ has repeatedly cleared the way for
genocides in this century — demands that the Anti-Defamation
League stop defaming decent, law-abiding Americans.”

Zelman calls the ADL’s recent media appearances “vile
defamation of militias … extremely dangerous … a tool to
undermine our civil right to be armed, which is a key pillar of
the Bill of Rights.” Zelman continues, “We need to be very clear
that the ADL defames all militias as being racists, hatemongers,
bigots, etc. These charges are bald-faced lies! The ADL even
labels as an anti-Semite an Orthodox Jew, Norm Resnick, who urges
firearms ownership and hosts a ‘patriot’ talk show in Colorado.”

“The ADL just doesn’t get it,” says Zelman. “They don’t see
that the biggest murderer of Jews has not been underground hate
groups — such as the KKK, the Weathermen, etc. — but
governments gone bad. By contrast, almost all militia members
love the Rule of Law.”

Zelman says, “We publicly challenge the Anti-Defamation
League to debate JPFO in an open forum. They need to apologize
to the millions of Americans whom they have defamed, and explain
their support for ‘gun control,’ a policy that has cleared the
way for seven major genocides in which 56 million persons —
including millions of children — have been murdered.”

JPFO is an aggressive civil rights and educational
organization, founded in October, 1989, which aims to destroy the
idea that ‘gun control’ is desirable. It publishes THE FIREARMS
SENTINEL, a quarterly journal. It has published several books,
including LETHAL LAWS: GUN CONTROL IS THE KEY TO GENOCIDE, which
reproduces the very ‘gun control’ laws that cleared the way for
mega-murder.

Zelman will next speak on May 2, 1995 at the University of
Iowa, in Iowa City, Papa John Business College, Room W-151, from
7:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Contact Mike Ierly in Iowa City for
information: (319) 358-4522.

2782 So. Wentworth Ave., Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53207
Voice 414-769-0760 Fax 414-483-8435

-30-

JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP – PRESS RELEASE
CONTACT: AARON ZELMAN, Jay Simkin or Alan M. Rice
2872 So. Wentworth Ave., Milwaukee, WI 53207
Phone: 414 769 0760 FAX 414 483 8435
Internet EMAIL: [email protected]

Noted legal scholar David Kopel has reviewed “LETHAL LAWS”,
published by JPFO in 1994. “Lethal Laws” contains the authentic
original texts of the “gun control” laws in force in the seven
nations where major twentieth century genocides occurred;

1915 – 1917 Ottoman Turkey, 1.5 million Armenians, murdered;

1929 – 1953 Soviet Union, 20 million people that opposed Stalin
were murdered;

1933 – 1945 Nazi occupied Europe, 13 million Jews Gypsies and
others that opposed Hitler, murdered;

1948 – 1952 China, 20 million anti-communists or communist
reformers, murdered;

1960 – 1981 Guatemala, 100,000 Maya Indians, murdered;

1971 – 1979 Uganda, 300,000 Christians and political rivals of
Idi Amin, murdered;

1975 – 1979 Cambodia, 1 million educated persons, murdered.

There are 56 Million corpses thanks to “gun control”.

Mr. Kopel’s review was published in the: “New York Law School
Journal of International and Comparative Law”. Mr. Kopel has
challenged those who say they support “gun control” because they
wish to save lives. The prevention of genocide through an armed
citizenry will save human lives. “Genocide is a human rights
violation that dwarfs all other crimes. If we are to be serious
– and not merely sanctimonious – about human rights than we must
be serious about eradicating genocide.” “If the people of the
world were much better armed, many fewer people would be the
victims of genocide. Unless one can propose a different method
of ending endemic genocide, the authors’ prescriptions stand as
the best, and only, potentially effective medicine. The burden
has shifted to the opponents of firearms rights to either come up
with a more effective anti-genocide medicine or to admit that
saving lives was never the primary objective of the gun
prohibition movement in the first place.”

JPFO urges persons and organizations who still support “gun
control” to read “Lethal Laws”. To those individuals and
organizations who claim that they would like to put an end to
“gun control”, we simply say that unless they immediately begin
to use the material contained in “Lethal Laws” they are destined
to lose the fight to preserve our civil right to own firearms.
Destroying “gun control” is the best way to save human lives. The
debate surrounding “gun control” has nothing to do with hunting
or sport, or much to do with ordinary criminals. The biggest
murderer in this century [has not been criminals or war, but] has
been governments gone bad.

Anyone wishing a complete copy of the law review may contact:
Joe Sciacca, Editor –
Journal of International and Comparative Law
New York Law School
57 Worth Street
New York, NY 10013 Phone: 212-431-2113

The single issue price is $10.00 ask for Volume 15, Numbers 2 & 3, 1995

“Lethal Laws” is $28.95 postage paid and available from: JPFO,
2872 So. Wentworth Ave., Milwaukee, WI 53207 – Phone: (414)
769-0760 FAX: (414) 483-8435

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:16:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43948 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:04:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 8:06:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> He is a pharamacist who never took a chemistry course in his life.
>>>>
>>>>So what?
>>
>>>Don’t be fooled by this obvious troll. Pharmacists study quite a bit of
>>>chemistry. Mr. Giwer has no evidence that Pressac did not study
>>>chemistry. Mr. Giwer has no evidence that Pressac believed ERCO
>>>actually to be crystalline.
>>
>> Richard J. Green EXCUSED HIM for not knowing the difference. But I
>>digress.

>I think Mr. Giwer made a spelling error. Lie is spelled “lie” NOT
>”digress.”

Who wrote this?

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:16:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43954 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One man’s opinion
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 8:12:08 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>> Don’t forget the Justice Douglas also agreeing with me.
>>
>>> You know, this too looks like an appeal to authority.
>>
>>> I also don’t forget that the Justice Douglas mentioned “crime” in the
>>>singular yet there were four charges brought at Nuremberg. Did he really
>>>have such a poor understanding of the proceedings?
>>
>> There was no justice at Nuremberg according to US and Canadian and
>>British standards of Justice. No one may be punished for anything he
>>did prior to a law that makes the action criminal. But you know that.
>>
>> You also know the IMT was not a military tribunal.

> And I also know that Matt Giwer completely evaded the point.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT

When I said it, I was told by the legal experts her that I was wrong.

“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed
it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried had never been formalized
as a crime with the
definiteness required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death
penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et
al deserved severe punishment. But their guilt did not justify us in
substituting power for principle.”

–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.

I would say it is good company to be wrong with.

=====

I would say it is a matter of you not wanting to read for comprehension.
But in any event, it is happened for even one crime it was not up to
western standards of justice.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:16:20 PDT 1996
Article: 43955 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: If Douglas was not enough, here is a president
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:12:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 8:13:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT

“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United
States. Equally popular was the sentence already announced by the high
tribunal: death. But what
kind of trial was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of
loosely given political promises
subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of pleasing
platitudes to be set lightly aside when
expediency required it. It was the foundation of the American system of
law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in
order to punish a vanquished enemy.”
— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:16:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43956 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So long and thanks for all the BBQs
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:21:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 210
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Amazing nonsense if you look for it.
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 01:06:45 GMT

Nizkor really does keep some amazing materials on file. It is a
treasure trove of “curious” material. Take for example the
following.

=====

“The thrust of the Russian case on the concentration camps

=====

Bingo. the RUSSIAN (read Soviet) case.

=====

came
from witnesses. Severina Shmaglerskaya who had spent three
years in
Auschwitz told of seeing women sent to work within minutes of
giving birth, of babies taken away, of children driven to gas
chambers. No defense counsel wanted to cross-examine her.

=====

That in itself is curious as the more damaging a witness is, the
more important the crossexamination. Whoever was accused
certainly was not provided with competent counsel.

=====

Samuel
Rajzman, had been taken from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka.
He
survived because he could speak Hebrew, French, Russian,
Polish and
German; he was needed to act as an interpreter. He described
the
arrival at Treblinka station. It looked like a station. There
were
signs saying ‘restaurant,’ ‘ticket office.’ There was even an
arrivals and departures board but all departing trains left
Treblinka empty. For on the platform prisoners were stripped,
women
were shaved so that their hair could be used for mattresses.

=====

Damn. And we just learned it was doormats. But no one has
turned up a human hair stuffed mattress either.

=====

Then
they walked up Himmelfahrt Street, the ‘Journey to Heaven’, to
the
gas chambers. The whole procedure up to then had taken ten
minutes.

=====

A trainload of people’s heads shaved in ten minutes. That is
even better than the cremation times.

=====

Rajzman believed they killed between 10,000 and 12,000 people
every
day at Treblinka. There were plans to increase the number of
ovens
from ten to tenty-five to keep up with the output of the gas
chambers.

=====

Ovens. Damn. Where are all of those open pit BBQs we have been
hearing about? Rather where are the ovens? Just another case of
can’t see the ovens for the trees so to speak.

How is it the Polish spies and the other eyewitnesses missed these
ovens? Why has this startling bit of Pennsylvania evidence been ignored
for so long?

=====

He had seen the arrival at the station of his mother, his
sister and two brothers. Friends, sorting the piles of clothes
on
the platform, found a photograph of his wife and child. ‘That
is
all I have left of my family. Only a photograph,’ he said.
None of
the defense counsel wanted to cross-examine Samuel Rajzman
either.

=====

Again, very inadequate defense counsel. Certainly grounds for a
mistrial.

=====

Besides such witnesses, the Russians could produce documents
of
suffering too – documents on tortures, beatings, castrations,
injections with poison, infections with cancer, typhus,
malaria.

=====

It is amazing the documents the Soviets could produce. Or
perhaps we should add to the Nazi physics the Nazi biology that
cancer is an infectuous disease. Or rather we should certainly
learn how they did it as we can only do it these days with rats
specially bred to be susceptable to cancer.

This is certainly very important to cancer research.

Of course it is interesting to note that even if they did manage
it the course of most cancers is years, not months. Treblinka
was not around long enough.

It is also of interest that the Nazis not only had samples of
malaria but were willing to risk all of their own people by
deliberately creating malaria infected food for mosquitoes.

And, of course, typhus. Every place else they are doing their
damnedest to keep it under control for their own protection yet
here they deliberately start cases of it.

=====

They had too many documents.

=====

A master of understatement.

=====

But how could the court refuse to
accept in evidence the statement which Jacob Vernik, a Warsaw
carpenter, had given his government? It described the year he
had
spent at Treblinka. The judges knew all too much by now about
camps
like Treblinka. But Vernik said that writing his statement had
given him the only reason to continue his life. ‘Awake or
asleep I
see the terrible visions of thousands of people calling for
help,
begging for life and mercy. I have lost all my family, I have
myself led them to death. I have myself built the death
chambers in
which they were murdered. I am afraid of everything. I fear
that
everything I have seen is written on my face. An old and
broken
life is a very heavy burden, but I must carry on and live to
tell
the world what German crimes and barbarism I saw.’

=====

FWIW, he is a carpenter so those claimed gas chambers were made
of wood so they were completely oil soaked.

=====

At the end of a morning session, where the massacre of the
Jews at
Vilna was described and Severina Shmaglerskaya gave her
evidence,
Doenitz’s counsel Dr. Kranzbuehler asked him ‘Didn’t anybody
know
anything about any of these things?’ Doenitz shook his head
and
shrugged his shoulders sadly. Goering turned round. ‘Of course
not
… The higher you stand the less you see of what is going on
below.’ They all ate their lunches in silence that day.<59>”

=====

Fascinating that this recounting makes Goering appear innocent.

=====

(Tusa,
200-201)

<59> Gilbert (G.M. Gilbert, “Nuremberg Diary,” Eyre and
Spottiswoode, 1948)

Work Cited

Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama:
The
Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc.,
1990

From [email protected] Sun Jun 16 21:20:13 PDT 1996
Article: 22996 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism,alt.radio.talk,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:19:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected].uk> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Milt Shook wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > >Matt, the holocaust is historical fact;
>> >
>> > Define it.
>> >
>> > just because it gives your
>> > >political agenda a bad name does not mean that simply denying that it
>> > >happened will make it so. That is called “denial”.
>> >
>> > It is called pointing out there has never been any evidence for
>> gassing
>> > or much of anything else regarding the popular fantasies comprising the
>> > undefined holocaust.
>> >
>>
>> I thought I had met stupidity before but I guess I haven’t til this remark.
>>
>> Hey stupid, go read the history books. Make a trip to the camps. Look at the
>> photos taken of it. Talk to surviors of it and to there families.
>>
>>
>> > I remember an old
>> > >soldier, a tanker with 1st Armored Division in WWII I think, who told
>> > >me of what he saw after they took out the guard towers at one
>> > >particular death camp.
>> >
>> > Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
>> > Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?
>>
>> And who in the hell is Wiesenthal? Guess that’s a part of history I haven’t
>> read? And why do you feel this Wiesenthal is correct and not the rest of
>> what is available as fact.
>> >
>> > They raced through the gate, expecting to find
>> > >imprisoned Allied soldiers – which they did, but most of them were
>> > >civilians, and ALL of them were treated in a manner which, in his
>> > >words, ” You’d shoot a man for treating his dog that way.” . He was
>> > >having a beer in the VFW in Killen, Texas, and I saw the look in his
>> > >eyes. He had seen his buddies blown to bits before his eyes, he had
>> > >seen entire cities reduced to rubble, but he wasn’t prepared for the
>> > >death camps. So, to those who deny that it happened – Sorry, no sale.
>> > >Memory lasts for quite awhile.
>> >
>> > Sorry, but he was never in a death camp according to Simon Wiesenthal.
>>
>> Who in the hell is Simon Wiesenthal???? And how the heck does he know if
>> someone was at the death camp? And if this Wiesenthal claims it never
>> happened than why are you stating that Wiesenthal says the tanker was never in
>> a death camp? It must have happened than!
>>
>EXCUSE ME? You mean the Simon Weisenthal who spent his entire life
>searching for the people who ran these death camps that he says didn’t
>exist? Come now.

Read what the man is claiming. Americans did not liberate Poland. Then
read what SW says.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No gas chamber in Germany
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:47:37 GMT

If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
know he lies a lot.

4/19/82:
WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
Buchenwald for the Duluth
News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
gas chambers, which
were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
Germany, and as we
all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
Wiesenthal, Books
and Bookmen, April, 1975).

=====

>I dare you to go to Los Angeles, walk along Fairfax Avenue, and tell them
>what you’re telling us. They will show you the tattoo. Also, take a look
>at the footage the Nazis themselves took of the death camps– the earth
>movers lifting thousands of naked, emaciated bodies, and dumping them
>into long trenches, the people being led off of trains and into large
>buildings, their clothes stripped from them in below zero cold. And this
>is all on film. Rent “Shoah” from your local rental place. It’s an 8-hour
>documentary. Eight hours about something that didn’t even happen. Eight
>hours of witnesses, and films taken at the time it didn’t happen. Pretty
>amazing, huh?

And is not the total of physical evidence for gas chambers equally
amazing?

>My greatest question to all of the idiots who deny the holocaust– Just
>what the hell do you gain by denying that it happened? Considering we
>learn lessons from history, what possible purpose do you have for
>covering it up, and pretending it never happened?

Would you care to define this holocaust you are talking about? I am
talking about gassing myself. What do you think you are talking about?

>Next, we’re gonna hear that the Constitution was actually written in some
>guy’s basement in 1963…

I Hoess has said it, it would be part of the myth.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43960 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 23:06:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 4:07:42 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported: (note 34)
>#
># In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the trial
># of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim
># [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews,
># representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
># gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.

>This is one example. Unless there’s some striking coincidence,
>this refers to the testimony of Dr. Bendel, who indeed testified
>at the “Belsen Trial”, and he indeed said that 80,000 Jews from
>Lodz were killed in gas chambers, but he said this happened
>in *Auschwitz-Birkenau, not in Belsen*. Moreover, I cannot
>find where he said this took one night.

>If so, what we have here is either an error made by the
>newspaper (someone thought that because the testimony was
>given in the “Belsen Trial”, it described something that
>happened in Belsen), or an outright “revisionist” lie.

Now that makes all the difference in the world. Whereas Belsen did not
have the facilities to gas or burn 80,000 in a single night, Auschwitz
did. That explains everything. Thank you for clarifying that point.

I find it amazing what you are promoting with a presumably straight
face.

Considering that the word used is “or” it is clear that both gassed and
burned refers to a means killing. As you can see he is also promoting
the burned alive story and so are you. You just want it to happen in a
different place.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43961 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:28:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:29:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[About Pressac]

>## He puts “crystals” in quotation marks, BTW. He’s apparently well
>## aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
>## described them as such because of their appearance.

># Greenie excused him. Take it up with Greenie.

>Even if true, irrelevant. Mr. Green may have been mislead by
>the fact that someone misquoted Pressac’s text (leaving out
>the quotation marks around “crystals”). Assuming, of course,
>that you’re not lying through your teeth again, and quoting
>Mr. Green to something he never said – a habit of yours,
>which you repeated just yesterday.

Do you have a problem with this?

=====

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

=====

># As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there
># was only wood pulp, period.

>See my previous article. According to the book by Dr. Peters,
>Degesch general manager, the small “Erco” pellets were also
>a carrier. This is the carrier you say did not exist, right?

>BTW, look at the label on the “Erco” can. What does it say?

What is Erco? Any relation to Erkel? But lets see a source, not your
imagination.

># Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
># Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from
># Degesh not the Chechs.

>And where did the “Chechs” purchase it from?

Why do you not ask them? It is not uncommon to license manufacture to
other companies.

># And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.

>But it was also clear to Mr. Giwer, the 163-IQ man, that Belsen
>camp was in Poland.

That is much less of a mistake than some of the eyewitnesses made about
Belsen. But you know that.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:24:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]z2.Stanford.EDU> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:25:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:

>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
>>a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>nonsense.

>No, that’s not what I said.

Are the >s wrong in this message?

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?

>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what “oxidation state” refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?

Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was “excused” for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.

So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:20 PDT 1996
Article: 43970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:04:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 4:05:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

># Simon Wiesenthal has said there were no gas chambers in Germany.

>His quote, which you posted, says “no extermination camps”. It does
>not say “no gas chambers”. As noted here many times, the extent of
>killing in the gas chambers in Germany proper was rather smaller
>than in the death camps the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland; and
>these camps in Germany proper are usually not classified in the
>same category as the death camps such as Treblinka, Auschwitz etc.

>If you have a quote in which he says “no gas chambers in Germany”,
>show it. If not, you’re lying when you claim he said that.

Again you insist upon confusing standard delousing chambers with gas
chambers. There is no honest reason for doing that.

As to the quote I have already posted it twice. It will take a while
for me to get up an automated schedule of spamming such as you use.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: truer than true testimony
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:30:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 5:31:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>
> Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
>accounts that are currently written in stone.

> Its obvious that Mr.Giwer is the prevailing
>Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithificationologist on alt.revisionism.

Writing in stone is always a dangerous thing to do when you make enemies
of those who laughed at the first set of tablets. They have a habit of
reminding you.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Gerstein Confession
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:25:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 2:26:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:

>> You don’t know the intende word? Or you have nothing else substantive
>>to respond to?

>It’s just that when you put a misspelled word in quotes and attribute it
>to me, a newcomer to the discussion might suppose you’re making fun of my
>spelling, Matt, instead of being incapable of spelling yourself.

>Nor is this the end of my message. I won’t say that what I had to respond
>to was more substantive, since all I had to respond to was your bullshit.

>> He is pretending to speak from personal knowledge.

>Let’s have a direct quote, and a *source*.

I posted quotes from his confession (i.e., the source.) What is it you
have missed? Is this what you missed?

The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
Exposure has swung into action.

1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
per day for Treblinka.

But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
today’s slightly less absurd numbers.

2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: “Quicker, quicker, carry
out the whole program!” Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
“Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too.”

Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
of his doubles because he was never near the place.

3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.

Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.

4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for “special
submarine equipment, doormats, etc.”

Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.

5) Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
even one-legged persons, completely naked. in Augst.

Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there’s
more

Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
says to me, “Naked in winter! But they can die that way!”

The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.

6) 7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
meters!

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, “not even if
reduced to liquid” mean anything to anyone?

Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
could form five high human pyramids.

7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.

And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
exhaust.

8) The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
the Nazis bad stock.

It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.

9) at Treblinka There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high

Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.

10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
where These are the places where millions of people disappeared
in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.

A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
fetish.

>> There was no big picture to any crusade. This was a man in the know.
>>This man was present with Hitler when he visited Madjanek. This man saw
>>one legged men marching. This man saw children executed with tampons
>>and prussic acid.

>Quotes. sources. Ask your kid what this means if the words are too big.

>> This is a mensch.

>If you understood the meaning of “mensch”, I doubt you’d say that, but I
>would indeed say that Gerstein was a mensch.

One of the holohuggers here seem to believe he is an honest man.

>> “Considerably less saintly” means
>[…]
>> means never having had a list or having been to Auschwitz.

>Reading comprehension again, Matt. The article you quoted didn’t say that
>he didn’t “have” a list; it said that the list was put together by someone
>else. Which, incidentally, is exactly how the move depicted the situation.

His widow said that he did not have a list. Do you have a problem with
that?

>> Patience. I don’t keep everything I find on the Web. When I find it
>>again it will be here.

>Uh, hold on a sec. You were ridiculing me for using the historical
>afterword to a drama a my source, while your source is…”the Web”? Highly
>credible, Matt. You’ve been visiting neonazi Web sites and mindlessly
>reproducing their bullshit, just as I suspected. Senility is a terrible
>thing.

I have gotten more than enough ridiculous material from the Nizkor site.
Did you miss the second true story of the first gassing? Right from
Nizkor that was.

You do not appear to pay much attention to what is posted in this NG.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:23 PDT 1996
Article: 43976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:22:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 3:23:39 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>One may look at

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/peters60.jpg

>This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
>manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).

How do you know?

>As you can see, there is a photo of the three carriers for
>HCN, cyanide gas. One of them are the small “Erco” pellets.
>You may recall, boys and girls, that Giwer claims that Zyklon
>of this type (“Erco”) never existed.

I said that the long secret Degesh publication does not mention it. You
need to learn to read what I say.

But when you get around to finding a technical description of “Erco” be
certain to post it. Until then, a trade name is not of much value.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:23 PDT 1996
Article: 43996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 02:09:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 9:11:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>>>>>>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess –
>>>>>>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>>Which true truth is Mr. Giwer peddling today?
>>>>
>>>> You, too, are confusing the Degesh pub with the public health document
>>>>from Prague. As we know, the SS did not buy from Prague.
>>
>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s argument that this public health document is a
>>>forgery?
>>
>> I have no argument. I have the clearly true and correct statement that
>>the Degesh publication does not mention “Erco” whatever that is supposed
>>to be.
>>
>> I can not put it into the Degesh pub. You can not put it into the
>>Degesh pub. Sorry.

>Either the document posted which mentions ERCO is accurate or it isn’t.
>The fact that not every publication mentions all three possible supports
>is irrelevant. BTW – Dr. Keren published a URL to see information from
>Dr. Peters of Degesch that confirms that ERCO was used as a support. Is
>it the case that Mr. Giwer was ignorant of the use of ERCO or is it the
>case that he is not being completely forthright?

You do need to learn to read some time. I have said it was not in the
Degesh publication that the holohuggers were saying supported their
position but just never could fine the time to post. I started looking
and found both documents almost immediately.

But specifically as to that scan of a single page, There is not even a
caption to the picture of the page. There is nothing indicating the
different purposes to which the different carriers were used. However
we do have a specific purpose in the Degesh publication.

We do know that from a Degesh publication entitled “Kyklon for Pest
Control” we have a specific purpose for this carrier and there is one
and only carrier mentioned. We also know from the weight of myth on
this subject that the type used for pest control is the type that was
supposedly used on people. Therefore this is a description of the type
that was supposedly used for gassing people.

QED

You do realize that neither of us can change this, do you not?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:24 PDT 1996
Article: 44001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Degesh photo gas 1
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 05:29:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 458
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 10:31:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

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sum -r/size 51298/27922 section (from “begin” to last encoded line)



From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:25 PDT 1996
Article: 44014 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Then there were some show acquittals
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 04:27:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
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FRANZ VON PAPEN

Von Papen was accused of conspiring with Hitler to induce Hindenburg to
take Hilter into government as Reichschancellor. According to this view,
Hindenburg was deceived by Von Papen into believing that civil war would
ensue if this was not done.

The Reichschancellor at that time, General Von Schleicher, had attempted
to rule illegally and unconstitutionally for some time without the
support of the National Socialists, who enjoyed the largest majority in
the history of the Reichstag. Many of Hitler’s illegalities actually
date back to the period of Von Schleicher’s rule (XXII 102-103
<<118-119>>). This was the only alternative to the chaos of 41 political
parties, each representing some private financial interest.

The democratic victors demanded of Von Papen, in 1946, that he should
have foreseen Hitler’s intent to wage “aggresive war” in 1933, and
conspired with Von Schleicher to rule through military dictatorship.

Von Schleicher was later shot following the Rohm Putsch. These shootings
were considered legal by Hindenburg, as was evidenced by a telegram
congratulating Hitler (XX 291 <<319>>; XXI 350 <<386>>; 577-578 <<636- 637>>; XXII 117 <<134-135>>). Von Papen also considered the shooting of
Rohm and his followers to have been justified by emergency (XVI 364
<<401>>), but considered that many other murders took place which were
not justified, and that it was Hitler’s duty to conduct an investigation
and punish these acts. This was not done.

It was conceded by the prosecution at Nuremberg that the Nazi Part
Program contained nothing illegal, and was indeed almost laudable (II
105 <<123>>). The National Socialists were declared legal by the
occupation authorities in the Rheinland in 1925 (XXI 455 <<505>>) and by
the German Supreme Court in 1932 (XXI 568 <<626>>) and by the League of
Nations and Polish Resident General in Danzig in 1930 (XVIII 169
<<187-188>>).

It was not clear in 1933 that the Army would unanimously support Von
Schleicher against the National Socialists, who had a legal right to
govern. Hindenburg’s refusal to violate the Constitution at the risk of
civil war brought Hitler into government in an entirely legal manner
(see also XXII 111-112 <<128-129>>). Von Papen was accused of “immoral
acts in furtherance of the Common Plan”, such as the use of the intimate
“du” form in conversation with the Austrian Foreign Minister, Guido
Schmidt: Von Papen remarked, “Sir David, if you had ever been in Austria
in your life, you would know that in Austria almost everyone says ‘du’
to everyone else” (XVI 394 <<435>>).

Acts of Von Papen’s which could not be called “criminal” were used to
prove the defendant’s “duplicity” (no pun intended). A mental
construction was placed on Von Papen’s acts with the benefit of
hindsight.

It is sometimes alleged that since Von Papen, Fritzsche and Schacht were
acquitted, Nuremberg was a “fair trial”. The contrary does not apply to
the International Military Tribunal of the Far East, or other trials in
which there were no acquittals; it is forgotten that the witchcraft
trials of the XVIIth Century averaged 5-10% in acquittals. Von Papen’s
case appears at XVI 236-422 <<261-466>>; XIX 124-177 <<139- 199>>.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:26 PDT 1996
Article: 44017 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nazi Massacre Of the Insane, I
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:27:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from chief of institution for feeble-minded in Stetten to
>Reich Minister of justice Dr. Frank, September 6 1940
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 854]
>—————————————————————–
>Dear Reich Minister,

>The measure being taken at present with mental patients of all
>kinds have caused a complete lack of confidence in justice among
>large groups of people. Without the consent of relatives and
>guardians, such patients are being transferred to different
>institutions. After a short time they are notified that the
>person concerned has died of some disease…

>If the state really wants to carry out the extermination of these
>or at least of some mental patients, shouldn’t a law be
>promulgated, which can be justified before the people – a law
>that would give everyone the assurance od careful examination
>as to whether he is due to die or entitled to live and which
>would also give the relatives a chance to be heard, in a
>similar way, as provided by the law for the prevention of
>Hereditarily affected Progeny?

>

>-Danny Keren.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:27 PDT 1996
Article: 44018 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:17:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
>>Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?

>And what makes you so sure that Wiesenthal was telling the truth?

Then you agree with me that he is a liar? Or just what is your point?

>>How mature. You must be in college.

>He’s old enough to wash your mouth out with soap.

Kinky and gay too.

What else does he have to offer that appeals to you?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:27 PDT 1996
Article: 44019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find. That was based upon the
internet cremation society’s statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications?

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz. This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side. On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep. However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

So back to Treblinka. There we have a 45 foot cube. Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments. But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.

But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments. So let me address that for our applied mathematician. The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything. He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core. The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.

If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.

For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:28 PDT 1996
Article: 44020 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: McOyVay’s childish games (http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 05:39:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Andy Walton) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, “Ronald C. Schoedel”
> wrote:

> :The problem though, is that McOyVay’s website is sooooooo sluggish and poorly
> :put together, I can never get through. Even when I try to check the crap
> :URL’s he posts, I can’t get through. Now, there is no way he can say it’s
> :because so many other people are getting through. I get through to the
> :website at cnn.com just fine numerous times a day, and somehow I think more
> :people are checking cnn.com than zinkor.crap.

>Probably so. CNN.com is an outlet of a massive media organization
>committed to maintaining a massive presence on the ‘net, and thus has the
>funding to maintain several high-powered servers. You will find that the
>Microsoft, Netscape, Apple, Intel, and Yahoo sites are generally among the
>fastest around.

>Ken, I assume, is running on much more modest hardware and bandwidth. Even
>with far, far less traffic, his site is more effected by it; Greyhound can
>carry millions of passengers a day, but my car with a dozen people in it
>will be sluggish.

Good sir, leave the technical knowledge to those who have it. You can
get my website (www2.combase.com/~mgiwer) as fast as you can get
cnn.com. Combase has a single T1 line. You can’t get any less than a
T1 line and call yourself an ISP.

The best thing for them would be to be hosted on a decent ISP. I would
guess the one they are using has everything stuffed onto one machine
instead of partitioning it into multiples as anyone who knows what they
are doing would do. They may have done that but bought the cheapest
LANs they could get.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:29 PDT 1996
Article: 44024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:05:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: As you know, Sgt. Schutz, my one connection was “probably more” and
>: yet you continue to maintain that the flue gas as a source is really
>: distilation. You further pretend that a banked fire is not oxygen
>: starved which is all that is required.

>I still can’t see what Myshkin hopes to gain by continuing to tell such
>easily refuted lies. It is not a question of what I “continue to maintain.”
>It is a simple fact that the “flue gases” that the Merck index (inter alia)
>refers to are the gases produced by distillation of coal to produce coke.
>Coal is a heterogeneous substance that contains mostly carbon with other
>minor constituents including such things as O, S, and N in the organic
>structure as well as inorganic components (in fact, there is occasionally
>talk of “mining” coal ash heaps for some of the inorganic components that
>are there in high enough concentration such that their extraction would
>be economical). When coal is distilled in the absence of oxygen, the
>volatile components (which include light hydrocarbons, oils, etc., and
>such things as — you guessed it — HCN) boil off and are collected in the
>stack, hence the term “stack gases” or “flue gases.” The solid mass left
>behind is known as coke and is essentially pure carbon. None of the above
>is a lie or an attempt at deception — it can be found in any decent book
>on industrial chemistry.

>The issue originally came up in the context of Myshkin’s claim that HCN
>would be a byproduct of the *burning* of coke, and his “proof” that HCN
>would be such a byproduct was his claim that it is found in “flue gases.”
>As we have seen, these “flue gases” have nothing whatsoever to do with
>the combustion of coke, and thus cannot be used to prove that significant
>amounts of HCN will arise from the burning of coke under any circumstances.
>If Myshkin wants us to believe that significant amounts of HCN are produced
>as a result of coke burning, then he has to provide some better evidence
>than what he has provided so far. And he admits above that he made such
>a claim. Most people who know anything about chemistry (of whom Myshkin
>is not one) would realize that it’s extremely unlikely that significant
>amounts of HCN will be produced from the burning of coke, no matter how
>you bank the fire.

>But we all know that one of Myshkin’s favorite tactics is to tell a lie
>and then claim that everyone else is lying when what they are doing is
>in fact correcting his original lie (cf. his claim that CO2 is not an
>acid: when presented with a quotation from a freshman chemistry textbook
>that said gaseous CO2 is an acid, he claimed that the example of it
>reacting as an acid would not go “at STP”. I have since presented him with
>two independent sources that claim the reaction CaO + CO2 -> CaCO3 goes
>spontaneously at the ambient atmospheric pressure of CO2, and he has yet
>to admit that he was wrong or even acknowledge the evidence I presented.)

>In any case, this is rapidly growing as tiresome for me as it is for
>everyone else. As far as I am concerned, the HCN from coke burning
>issue is over. Unless Myshkin brings some evidence that HCN is formed
>in significant quantities from the burning of coke, this message is my
>last word on the subject, as I think there can not be any doubt as to
>which of the two of us is lying here.

>By the way, if Myshkin wants to use as an epithet for me the name of
>a character from “Hogan’s Heroes,” one would think that he would at
>least have the decency to spell it correctly. The difference in the
>level of literary allusion between him (of the Wile E. Coyote supergenius
>IQ) and me has been noted, of that you can be sure.

We all know there are two chemists here who have nothing better to do
with their time but attempt to deceive people for the sole purpose of
supporting their favorite holocaust myths. This is a fact in evidence
as you know. I have no idea why you would want to keep it alive.

I would suggest Sgt. Schulz drop it. ========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:30 PDT 1996
Article: 44025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.belnet.be!swsbe6.switch.ch!swidir.switch.ch!in2p3.fr!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel’s promotion of forgery: Das Lachout Dokument
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:01:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, Alexander Baron
> wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “Ken McVay OBC” writes:
>>> THE LACHOUT “DOCUMENT”
>>> ANATOMY OF A FORGERY

>Mr. Baron neglected to add the segueing comment: “Speaking of
>dishonest documentation and forgery, these happen to be my areas of
>expertise … and here is some news of my latest”

>>I have just completed a critique called HOLOCAUST “REVISIONISM” AND FRAUD;
>>it is currently at the proof-reading stage and will, hopefully, be available
>>by September, if not sooner, as part of my next tranche of publications.

>Oh, Alex! Really you should know better! Your next “tranche” you say?
>It is to laugh! You must be referring to yet another in the series of
>products which can only be the result of your self-induced trance of
>ignorant bigotry.

>>In keeping with my long established non-partisan spirit this study will also
>>contain many documented examples of Exterminationist chicanery.

>TRANSLATION: Because! I! Say! So! I can wrap my keyboard in the flag
>of freedom of speech and spew unsubstantiated hate-filled drivel to my
>heart’s content. I know that there are societal misfits – just like
>me – who will actually pay money for this, and I’m posting this now in
>the hope of developing a mailing list of sucke … uh …interested
>parties.

Translation: Fat Broad hasn’t got the brights to do anything but play
typist and deliver on her back.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:30 PDT 1996
Article: 44026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another kind of gassing
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:07:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:09:06 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer plagiarized from Carlos Porter:

>[snip]

> The least you could do, Mr. Giwer, is give your source, which appears
>to be:

> http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/gcgv/dachau2.html

>I never expected you would do any research which could not be conducted on
>the Web.

I have yet to see a holohugger here post from other than derivative
sources so I am quite up to the holohugger standard. If you can name
anyone who has done original research, please do so.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:31 PDT 1996
Article: 44027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:08:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <4q33sg$s[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>Erik Marksberry wrote:

>>> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>>>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>>>the Nazi party.

>> Actually a quite limited bit of truth.

>Oh..oh. I suspect we are about to be treated to the Giwer-troll version of
>history . Its distinguishing characteristic is that it is wrong and
>slanted. Let’s see what happens today.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

=====

Good enough for today?

>> The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put together a
>>governing coalition of the parties which held seats in the Reichstag.

>Wrong. The Nazis came to power in January 1933 when Hitler was named
>Chancellor by the Reichpresident. The “coalition” was not put together
>until March 1933, by which time Hitler had banned the Communist Party. That
>made achieving a majority in the March 1933 elections somewhat easier, since
>around 80 seats in the Reichstag had “disappeared”.

You really do need to learn something about both parliamentary forms of
government and what in fact happened.

>> Between then and March international Jewish organizations
>>organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the middle of
>>the Depression. They announced it in March. One week later there was a
>>one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany organized by the Nazis.

>Wrong. This has all been posted several times. The one-day boycott by the
>Nazis was one day only because of the threat of a worldwide boycott of
>German goods. The so-called international boycott was the result of German
>harassment of Jews.

>This is about par for the course for the Giwer-troll. Two assertions–two
>mistakes.

You insist upon presenting things in a backwards and in fact impossible
order. There was absolutely ZERO harrassment of Jews by Nazis before
the boycott.

But of course, be the latest to attempt to modify history. Post the
harrassment.

Hint: Mere rhetoric is not harrassment.

Again you have no idea what happened.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:32 PDT 1996
Article: 44029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:09:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>>Since you are able to judge translations, I take it you are able to
>>>read this text in the original language.

>>> Noch im Sommer 1942 wurden die Leichen
>>> in die Massengräber gebracht. Erst Ende des
>>> Sommers fingen wir an mit der Verbrennung;
>>> zuerst auf einem Holzstoß mit ca. 2000 Leichen,
>>> nachher in den Gruben mit den wieder freigelegten
>>> Leichen aus der früheren Zeit.[1]

>>>It’s your turn now, Mr. Giwer. Please translate this quote for the
>>>convenience of those who can’t read German.

>Gee, I don’t see the Giwer-troll’s translation anywhere.

>>>Then we’ll discuss your translation, and then we’ll discuss what is
>>>written in this text.

>>>A hint – “Massengräber” is German for “mass graves”.

>>>A second hint – the first sentence should not read: “In the summer of
>>>1942 there were no mass graves.”

>> That is about as cute as it is stupid. Would you like to try for idiot
>>of the year award?

>I still don’t see the Giwer-troll’s translation. Is it possible he doesn’t
>know what the text says? Is it possible that….========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:33 PDT 1996
Article: 44031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonies By SS-Men About Gassing, V
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:10:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 2:11:56 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>># Danny boy, you forget the certified true eyewitness testimny
>># of the crematoria at Treblinka. No pits required. In fact there
>># were plans to build more crematoria.
>>
>>Post the eyewitness testimony you’re referring to. I have a feeling
>>you’re confusing Auschwitz-Birkenau with Treblinka. I may be wrong;
>>so post this testimony.

> Occasionally a post that Giwer refers to really does exist. See

> http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9540495&server=dnserver.dbapr

>although Mr. Giwer (typically) does not give the full reference back to
>the Nizkor URL.

That is because of the high risk they will delete it if it does not
support the myth.

Any revisionist recognizable to me can have any link they want. I will
not assist Nizkor in sanitizing their files.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT

Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found
powdered cyanide.

“Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.

Amazing what you can find if you look around.

And holohuggers are going to believe it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:33 PDT 1996
Article: 44032 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:54:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 1:55:52 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) said:

>>>>
>>>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

>>>>But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
>>>>> like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary)
>to
>>>>> shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
>>>>> pressures?

>>>> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of Combase
>>>>until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here. That is called
>>>>censorship the last time I heard. It is also called a conspiracy.

>>>What the Giwer-troll writes is called bullshit. It is he who got himself
>>>bopped by Combase by constantly being a pain in the ass, to the extent
>that
>>>half of North America was complaining about him. He fled before they
>could
>>>boot him, or was it the other way around? 🙂
>>
>> As you know that is not true. As you know you are a liar and a harrsser
>>of the first order. As you know you posted knowledge of a phone
>>conversation 4 hours after it was conducted.

>It would have been pretty hard to post knowledge of a phone conversation 4
>hours *before* it happened.

>> As you know, you are a liar.

>Not me, Mr. Giwer-troll sir.

>> McFly, not only is there no one in there, there are only holohuggers
>>pretending to believe you. They know you are a liar.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
>with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:34 PDT 1996
Article: 44033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay: Not Addressing the Question
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:29:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Laura Finsten wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[cut]

>> Although I am certain you know it, Finstein is a politically correct
>>idiot even to the spelling of her name so as not to appear Jewish.

>TROLL ALERT: In a desperate, and I must say truly lame effort to offend
>and provoke an argument, the Giwer-thing tosses this lulu out, in which
>I am on the losing end whether Jewish or not. But you know, this one
>doesn’t make sense at all. Wouldn’t it be politically correct to flaunt
>being Jewish? You know, show it with pride and all that? Wouldn’t it be
>politically incorrect to change the spelling of my name to hide it? This
>is actually rather amusing.

You did flaunt it. Why did you think you did not?

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: another kind of gassing
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:35:03 GMT

: “There was no gas chamber in the camp in working order (!). A gas
chamber was being
built in the crematorium and in January 1945, work was going on at a
high speed. The chamber
was soon completed except for the gas boiler (?). A railway worker who
had to go in and out of
the camp told me that a boiler had arrived at the Ostbanhof, Munich,
>from Auschwitz. But this
boiler, together with many gas cylinders had been destroyed in an air
raid.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:35 PDT 1996
Article: 44034 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,can.general
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Web
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:22:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article ,
>[email protected] (Andy Walton) wrote:

>[teeny-bopper complaining about sluggish Nizkor web site snipped]

>>Ken, I assume, is running on much more modest hardware and bandwidth. Even
>>with far, far less traffic, his site is more effected by it; Greyhound can
>>carry millions of passengers a day, but my car with a dozen people in it
>>will be sluggish.

>Yup. Nizkor.almanac.bc.ca is a simple 486 Dx25, connected via
>28.8 Kb PPP link. It is barely able to keep up with the 700 to
>900 daily visitors it gets now, and our stats
>(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/stats/) suggest that we have max’d our bandwidth.

Bingo! Exactly what I said. You don’t even have a T1 line. Am I right
or am I right!?!

You have a primitive piece of shit computer over a phone line exactly as
I said. My son set that up for himself in half an hour just for
conveniece at home. So who gave you the fixed IP address and at what
price?

>>I’ve tried many of the URLs Ken has posted recently, and they’ve worked
>>for me; I keep odd hours, though. Try again during less busy hours.

>Well, as noted, hundreds of people do get their files, but
>then perhaps teeny-bopper has a problem with timing… I guess
>he’ll just have to get used to always being at the end of the
>line, at least until late summer.

Webcom or Combase can do better for you in an instant.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:36 PDT 1996
Article: 44035 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those Polish spies again
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:25:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 3:26:22 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:08:18 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>> Anyone want to explain this one?
>>>>
>>>> ” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were
>>>> built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the
>>>>people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and
>>>>then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special
>>>>way; there they were killed. ” IMT VII – p.576-577.

>[Mr. Van Alstine’s remarks snipped]

>> Now there is a response worth keeping. Here I PROVE by eyewitness
>>testimony that people were electrocute by those mean old Nazis and the
>>best you can do is recite the mantra.

>> You should be thanking me for proving another of those horrible Nazi
>>attrocities.

>Since I no longer need to demonstrate that you have not obtained this
>quote from te IMT blue series, but have clipped it from a denier web
>page (and representing thereby that it is a true truth), let me
>reassure you that the quote is not from eyewitness testimony. You have
>proved nothing except that you can operate a web browser and cut and
>paste from a web page. I understand that they are now training monkeys
>to do that these days.

>Feel free to prove me wrong by letting your admiring readers know who
>said/wrote it and in what context.

Thank you for agreeing that my source is up to the standards of the
holohuggers in that their’s are not from reading primary sources either.

Therefore, the sources are equal and equally valid until contradicted.

Now that you know what is going on, respond accordingly.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:37 PDT 1996
Article: 44036 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:26:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 3:28:11 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
>## manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).
>
># How do you know?

>How do I know what? That Dr. Peters was the general manager of
>Degesch? Don’t tell me you’re going to deny this also?

How do you know this is a page from a book written by him?

># I said that the long secret Degesh publication does not mention
># it. You need to learn to read what I say.

>Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
>as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
>them.

What is Erco? How do you know who manufactured it? What are your
sources?

>It would be better for you to drop this subject. You’ve made a
>damned fool of yourself already. No need to carry on.

Danny boy, the pipes are not calling, it is the requiem of gassing that
is calling.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 11:03:31 PDT 1996
Article: 44040 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: But if you think the Nazis were bad …
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 04:10:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 9:12:05 PM PDT 1996

JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS

While Germans were being convicted of making human “soap” (taken
seriously in the seventh edition of Oppenheim and Lauterpacht’s
prestigious International Law, vol. II, p. 450) Japanese defendants were
being convicted of making human “soup” in repeated trials.

This is not a misprint; it was considered a “proven fact” in 1948 – a
“fact” proven in numerous “trials” – that the Japanese are a race of
habitual cannibals who were forbidden upon pain of death from devouring
the corpses of their own dead, but who were officially encouraged to eat
Americans. Americans were served fried, or as soup; people were eaten
when other food was available. Thus, the Japanese engage in cannibalism
out of choice rather than necessity. Favourite human body parts for
culinary purposes are liver, pancreas and gall bladder; Chinese are
swallowed in pill form!

Among the “trials” in which this was “proven” are U.S. Tachibana Yochio
and 13 others, Mariana Islands, 2nd-15th August, 1946; Commonwealth of
Australia vs. Tazaki Takehiko, Wewak, 30th November 1945; Commonwealth
of Australia v. Tomiyasu Tisato, Rabaul, 2nd April 1946; and the most
complex war crimes trial in history, the International Military Tribunal
for the Far East (IMTFE) personally supervised by Douglas McArthur,
which lasted from May 1946 until December 1948 (see The Tokyo Judgment,
vol. 1, pp. 409-410, University of Amsterdam Press 1977, pp. 49,674-5 of
mimeographed transcript.

The 25 defendants who survived trial were all convicted; 7 were hanged.

Their crimes included:

Planning, initiation and waging “aggressive war” against the Soviet
Union (the Soviet Union attacked Japan two days after Hiroshima in
violation of a Non-Agression Pact; on this same day the London Agreement
was signed, pursuant to which the Nuremberg Trial was held); planning,
initiation, and waging “aggressive war” against France (France is in
Europe); illegal sea blockade and indiscriminate population bombing
(case against Shimada), that is, the actions of the British in Europe
would have been illegal if committed by the Japanese; trial of war
criminals before a military tribunal (case against Hata and Tojo; see
also U.S. vs. Sawada, probably the most disgusting and hypocritical
accusation of all; the victims were 7 Americans guilty of participating
in the fire-bombing of Tokyo in which 80,000 women and children were
burned to death) and cannibalism. It was not alleged that the defendants
ate anyone personally.

The evidence included:

* Soviet War Crimes Reports * Chinese War Crimes Reports * Soviet
reports based on Japanese documents not attached to the reports *
Summaries of Japanese military aggression in China (written by the
Chinese) * 317 Judge Advocate General War Crimes Reports (total length:
14,618 pages) “quoting” “captured” Japanese documents, diaries,
cannibalism confessions, mass murder orders, orders to gas P.O.W.s on
remote South Sea islands, etc. (“captured documents” not attached to
reports; proof of authenticity not required) * affidavits of Japanese
soldiers imprisoned in Siberia * affidavits of Japanese referring to
Japs as the ‘enemy’ * affidavits of Red Army Officers * newspaper
clippings (admissable evidence for the prosecution, but not usually for
the defense; i.e., events in China were proven by quoting the Chicago
Daily Tribune, the New Orleans Times- Picayune, the Sacrimento Herald,
Oakland Tribune, New York Herald, New York Times, Christian Science
Monitor, etc. * the “affidavit” of Marquis Takugawa (written in English
and not read to him in Japanese) * the statements of Okawa (Okawa was
declared insane and confined to a lunatic asylum, but his statements
were used in evidence) * the testimony of Tanaka (a professional witness
paid by the Americans; Okawa, when drunk, has confessed everything to
Tanaka; Tanaka ‘The Monster’ Ryukichi was supposedly responsible for
millions of atrocities but was not tried, instead he moved freely about
Japan) * Kido’s diary (titbits of gossip about everybody Kido didn’t
like) * Harada’s Memoirs (Harada had suffered a stroke, so his dictation
was incomprehensible; how well he could remember and what he meant to
say were anybody’s guess; the translations were a guess; many different
“copies” had been “corrected” by a variety of people other than the
person to whom he had dictated; added to which he had a reputation for
telling lies).

The Prosecution’s Answer to Defense Arguments at the end of the trial
refutes all defensive evidence, stating that documents (translations of
excerpts “copies” without proof of issuance or signature) are the best
witnesses. If prosecution and defense both quote a document, defense
have quoted out of context, but never the prosecution. Hearsay has
probative value; testimony of defense witnesses has no probative value;
cross- examination is a waste of time.

Five of the 11 judges – William Webb of Australia, Delfin Jaranilla of
the Philippines, and Bert. A. Röling of the Netherlands, Henri Bernhard
of France, and R.B. Pal of India – dissented. Pal wrote a famous 700
page dissentient opinion in which he called the prosecution atrocity
evidence “mostly worthless”, remarking sarcastically that he hoped one
of the documents was in Japanese.

A peculiarity of war crimes trials is that far from “proving” anything,
they all contradict each other. It was held at Tokyo that the Chinese
had a “right” to violate “unfair” treaties, and that Japanese efforts to
enforce such treaties – because they were “unfair” – constituted
“aggression”.

When the atomic bombs were dropped, Shigemitsu had been attempting to
negotiate a surrender for nearly 11 months, beginning on September 14,
1944. This of course became another “crime” – “prolonging the war
through negotiation”.

“Proof” of Japanese cannibal activity may be found in JAG Report 317,
pp. 12,467-8 of mimeographed transcript; Exhibits 1446 and 1447, pp.
12,576-7; Exhibit 1873, pp. 14, 129-30, and Exhibits 2056 and 2056A and
B, pp. 15,032- 42.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 11:03:32 PDT 1996
Article: 44045 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: more on the real Hoss
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 04:04:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 298
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 9:05:32 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

RUDOLF HÖSS

Rudolf Höss was the Auschwitz commandant whose “confessions” have
“proven” that Hitler gassed six million Jews (or five million, the
figure usually used at Nuremberg). His best-known “confession” is the
one quoted by William L. Shirer on pages 968-969 of The Rise and Fall of
the Third Reich.

This document, Document 3868-PS, should be seen in its context. The ex
parte written “statement” or affidavit (i.e., prepared in the presence
of only one of the parties) was a principal prosecutor’s tool in the
witchcraft trials of the Middle Ages, only to disappear for several
centuries, then reappear in Communist show trials and war crimes trials.

These documents violate many standard rules of legal procedure, such as
the rule against asking leading questions, the rule against prior
consistent statements (i.e., the multiplication of evidence by
repetition; normally, such statements are only admissible when they
contradict other statements made later), the right to confront and
cross-examine one’s accuser, and the privilege against
self-incrimination. Nor would the “evidence” in war crime trials be
admissable in a court martial. Even in 1946, the introduction of
depositions by the prosecution in capital cases before a court martial
was forbidden by Article 25 of the US Articles of War. Article 38
required the use of standard Federal rules of evidence.

At Nuremberg, there was never the slightest pretense that Höss wrote
this document. If that had been the case, it would not state, “I
understand English as it is written above”, but rather, “I have written
this statement myself”. In the minor trials (Hadamar, Natzweiler, etc.)
it is common to find confessions written entirely in the handwriting of
the interrogator, in English, with a final statement in the prisoners
handwriting, in German, stating that these are his statements and that
he is satisfied with the translation into English!

Another formula occurs on page 57 of the Hadamar volume of Sir David
Maxwell-Fyfe’s book, War Crimes Trials, “I certify that the above has
been read to me in German, my native tongue” (in English).

The pretense was that the prisoner was interrogated through an
interpreter in question and answer form, after which the questions were
deleted, and the answers were run together in the form of an affidavit,
usually written by a different person from the interrogator who
conducted the questioning.

At Belsen, for example, every affidavit was written by one officer,
Major Smallwood. In this trial, a combination Auschwitz-Belsen trial,
the court- appointed British and free Polish defense team demolished the
prosecution case – including the “selections for mass gassings” – but
were overruled on the grounds that involuntary statements and oral and
written hearsay were admissable, “not to convict the innocent, but to
convict the guilty” (Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals, Vol. II.
(This thin volume must be read in its entirety.))

After the affidavit was prepared by the officer who did nothing but
write affidavits, it was presented in its finished form to the prisoner
for signature. If it was not signed, it was introduced into evidence
anyway. Objections went to “weight”, in the jargon of war crimes
proceedings, rather than to “admissibility”.

An example of an unsigned affidavit by Rudolf Höss is Document NO-
4498-B. The B means that this document is a “translation” with
typewritten signature of an “original” document, Document NO-4498-A,
written in Polish, and allegedly signed by Höss. There is also a
Document NO-4498-C, in English.

Affidavits A and C are not attached to Affidavit B, the “true copy”.

Document 3868-PS, quoted by Shirer, was signed in English, 3 times, but
not in the “translation” into German. The document contains a minor
change initialled by Höss, with a small “h”, and an entire sentence
written entirely in the interrogator’s handwriting (compare capital
“W”s) not initialled by Höss. The initial, of course, is there to
“prove” that he has “read and corrected” the document. The content of
this handwritten sentence is refuted elsewhere (XXI 529 <<584>>).

When the affidavit was presented to the prisoner, it was sometimes
corrected extensively, leading to two or more versions of the same
document. In these cases, the longer ones are “quoted”, and the shorter
ones are “lost”. An example of this practice is Document 948-949, the
affidavit of Dr. Wilhelm Jäger (See Albert Speer.)

Jäger testified that he signed 3 or 4 copies of the same document, a
much shorter one. The shorter one was originally presented against the
elder Krupp, before charges against him were dropped. In this document,
the longer one, the translation into English is dated prior to the
signature date on the “original”. Jäger’s court appearance was an
unmitigated disaster, but that is forgotten (XV 264-283 <<291-312>>).

If the affiant appeared to testify, he invariably contradicted the
affidavit, but contradictions are ignored. Other affidavit signers whose
court appearances were catastrophic include General Westhoff, who
contradicted his unsworn “statement” 27 times (XI 155-189 <<176-212>>);
and a “germ warfare witness”, Schreiber (XXI 547-562 <<603-620>>); Paul
Schmidt’s affidavit (Schmidt was Hitler’s interpreter), Document 3308-PS
– presented to him for signature when he was too sick to read it
carefully – was partially repudiated by him (X 222 <<252>>), but used in
evidence against Von Neurath, despite Schmidt’s repudiation (XVI 381
<<420-421>> XVII 40-41 <<49-50>>). Ernst Sauckel signed an affidavit
written prior to his arrival at Nuremberg (XV 64-68 <<76-80>>) and
signed under duress (his wife and 10 children were to be handed over to
the Poles or Russians).

Since the affiants almost never (if ever) wrote their own “statements”,
it is common to find identical or nearly identical phrases or even
entire paragraphs occurring in different documents, even when they have
been prepared on different days by supposedly different people; for
example, affidavits 3 and 5 of Blaskovitz and Halder (Exhibits 536-US
and 537-US); Documents USSR-471 and USSR-472 and 473; and Documents
USSR-264 and 272 (human soap affidavits).

Other affidavits signed by Höss include Document NO-1210, in which the
English was written first, with extensive interpolations, additions
andcorrections, including 2 different first drafts of page 4, and 2
different first drafts of page 5, then translated into German and signed
by Höss. That is, the “translation” is the “original”, and the
“original” is the “translation”.

Document 749(b)D was “translated orally” into German from English for
Höss prior to signature. The signature is faint to the point of
illegibility, indicating possible ill health, fatigue or torture. The
torture has been described by Rupert Butler in Legions of Death (Hamlyn
Paperbacks)

The “confession” quoted by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe on April Fool’s Day,
April 1, 1946, in which Höss “confessed” to killing 4 million Jews (X
389 <<439-440>>), instead of the usual 2.5 million of April 5, 1946, has
either never existed or has gotten “lost”.

It is not true that Höss’s court appearance at Nuremberg consisted
chiefly of assenting to his affidavit; this is true only of his
cross-examination by Col. John Amen of the U.S. Army.

Instead, Höss appeared to testify, and, as usual, contradicted his
affidavit and himself as much as possible (XI 396-422 <<438-466>>).

For example, where the affidavit states (XI 416 <<460>>) “we knew when
the people were dead because their screaming stopped”, (a crudely
obvious toxicological impossibility), his oral testimony claims (XI 401
<<443>>, in response to grossly improper leading questions posed by
Kaltenbrunner’s “defense attorney”), that the people became unconscious;
leaving unsolved the problem of just how he knew when they were, in
fact, dead. He forgot to mention that killing insects with Zyklon took
two days, a fact he mentioned elsewhere (Document NO-036, p. 3, German
text, answer to Question 25, and Kommandant in Auschwitz, p. 155).

With such a slow-acting poison, the people would suffocate first.

Höss claimed that the order to kill the Jews of Europe was given orally
(XI 398 <<440>>), but that orders to keep the killings secret were given
in writing (XI 400 <<442>>. He claimed that persons were cremated in
pits at Auschwitz, a notorious swamp (XI 420 <<464>>), and that gold
teeth were melted down on the spot (XI 417 <<460>>), but an evacuation
of the concentration camps to avoid capture would have led to
unnecessary deaths (XI 407 <<449-450>>), and, almost, that there was no
killing program at all! This is worth quoting:

“Until the outbreak of war in 1939, the situation in the camps regarding
feeding, accomodation, and treatment of detainees, was the same as in
any other prison or penitentiary in the Reich. The detainees were
treated strictly, yes, but methodical beatings or ill-treatment were
outof the question. The Reichsfuhrer gave frequent warnings that every
SS man who laid violent hands on a detainee would be punished; and quite
often SS men who did ill-treat detainees were punished. Feeding and
accomodation at that time were in every respect put on the same basis as
that of other prioners under legal administration. The accomodation in
the camps during those years was still normal because the mass influxes
at the outbreak of and during the war had as yet not taken place. When
the war started and when mass deliveries of political detainees arrived,
and, later on, when detainees, who were members of resistence movements,
arrived from the occupied territories, the construction of buildings and
the extensions of the camps could no longer keep up with the number of
detainees who arrived. During the first years of the war this problem
could still be overcome by improvising measures; but, later, due to the
exigencies of the war, this was no longer possible, since there were
practically no building materials any longer at our disposal” – (Note:
the bodies are supposed to have been burnt using wood for fuel.) – . . .
This led to a situation where detainees in the camps no longer had
sufficient powers of resistence against the ensuing plagues and
epidemics . . . the aim wasn’t to have as many dead as possible or to
destroy as many detainees as possible. The Reichsfuhrer was constantly
concerned with the problems of engaging all forces possible in the
armament industry . . . These so-called ill- treatments and torturing in
concentration camps, stories of which were spread everywhere amongst the
people, and particularly by detainees who were liberated by the
occupying armies, were not, as assumed, inflicted methodically, but by
individual leaders, sub-leaders, and men who laid violent hands on them
. . If in any way such a matter was brought to my notice, the
perpetrator was, of course, immediately relieved of his post or
transferred somewhere else. So that, even if he wasn’t punished because
there wasn’t evidence to prove his guilt, he was taken away and given
another position . . .

“The catastrophic situation at the end of the war was due to the fact
that as a result of the destruction of railways and of the continuous
bombings of the industrial works, it was no longer possible to properly
care for these masses, for example, at Auschwitz, with its 140,000
detainees. Improvised measures, truck columns, and everything else tried
by the commandants to improve the situation, were of little or no avail.
The number of sick became immense. There were next to no medical
supplies; plagues raged everywhere. Detainees who were capable of work
were used continuously by order of the Reichsfuhrer, even half-sick
people had to be used wherever possible in industry. As a result, every
bit of space in the concentration camps which could possibly be used for
lodging was filled with sick and dying detainees . . .

“At the end of the war, there were still thirteen concentration camps.
All the other points which are marked here on the map means so-called
labour camps attached to the armament factories situated there . . .

“If any ill-treatment of detainees by guards occurred – I myself have
never observed any – then this was possible only to a very small degree,
since all officers in charge of the camps took care that as few SS men
as possible had immediate contact with the inmates, because in the
course of the years the guard personnel had deteriorated to such an
extent that the former standards could no longer be maintained . . .

“We had thousands of guards who could hardly speak German, who came from
all leading countries of the world as volunteers and joined these units;
or we had elder men, between 50 and 60, who lacked all interest in their
work, so that a camp commandant had to take care continuously that these
men fulfilled even the lowest requirements of their duties. Furthermore,
it is obvious that there were elements among them who would ill-treat
detainees, but this ill-treatment was never tolerated. Furthermore, it
was impossible to have these masses of people working or when in the
camp directed by SS men, so that everywhere detainees had to be engaged
to give instructions to the detainees and set them to work, and who
almost exclusively had the administration of the inner camp in their
hands. Of course, a great deal of ill-treatment occured which couldn’t
be avoided, because at night there was hardly any member of the SS in
the camps. Only in specific cases were the SS men allowed to enter the
camp, so that the detainees were more or less exposed to the detainee
supervisors.”

Question (by defense attorney for the SS, Dr. Babel):

“You have already mentioned regulations which existed for the guards,
but there was also a standing order in all the camps. In this camp order
there were laid down the punishments for detainees who violated the camp
rules. What punishments were these?”

Answer:

“First of all, transfer to a “penal company” (Strafkompanie), that is to
say, harder work, and their accomodation restricted; next, detention in
the cell block, detention in a dark cell; and in very serious cases,
chaining or strapping. Punishment by ‘strapping’ (Anbinden) was
prohibited in the year 1942 or 1943, I can’t say exactly when, by the
Reichsfuhrer. Then there was the punishment of standing to attention
during a long period at the entrance to the camp (Strafstehen), and
finally punishment by beating.

“However, this punishment of beating could not be decreed by any
commandant independently. He could apply for it.”

– Oral testimony of Rudolf Höss, 15 April 1946 (XI 403-411 <<445-454>>).

Höss’s motivation appears to have been to protect his wife and 3
children, and to save the lives of others by testifying that only 60
people knew of the mass killings. Höss attempted to save Kaltenbrunner
by implicating Eichmann and Pohl, who had not yet been apprehended. (For
a similar case, see Heisig’s affidavit implicating Raeder, XIII 460-461
<<509-510>>).

Höss appeared as a “defense witness”, and his cross-examination by the
prosecution was cut short by the prosecution itself (XI 418-419 <<461- 462>>). Perhaps they were afraid he would spill the beans.

Höss’s famous “autobiography” Kommandant in Auschwitz, probably prepared
in question and answer from through interrogation like a gigantic
“affidavit”, then written up to be copied in his handwriting, is not
much better. In this book, German text, cremation fires were visible for
miles (p. 159). Everyone in the area knew of the exterminations (p. 159)
the victims knew they were going to be gassed (pp. 110, 111, 125), but
it was possible to fool them (pp. 123-124; Document 3868-PS), and his
family never knew a thing (pp. 129-130). Höss was a chronic drunkard who
“confessed” these things when he had been drinking (p. 95) or was being
tortured (p. 145).

It is not true that, according to p. 126 of this text, bodies were
removed from gas chambers by Kapos eating and smoking and/or not wearing
gas masks; the text does not say that. Robert Faurisson has proven that
Höss did make this assertion, but elsewhere, during an “interrogation”.

The Polish “translation” of this book, published prior to the
publication of the German “original text”, seems to agree with the
German text, except that place names and dates are missing, indicating
that the Polish was probably written first, these details being inserted
later in the German translation.

The uncut, unexpurgated complete writings of Rudolf Höss(?) (in Polish)
are available through international library loan (Wspomnienia Rudolfa
Hössa, Komendanta Obozu Oswiecimskiego).

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 11:03:33 PDT 1996
Article: 44046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honesty needed
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 04:52:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 11:53:54 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>: I remember this one. It was when you were trying to deceive people
>>>: into believing there could be no HCN production from coke flue gases.
>>
>>>The man never gives up. It’s amazing. Reading this sort of thing brings
>>>to mind phrases like “objective correlative.” It has been explained to
>>>Giwer any number of times that the “coke flue gases” that contain HCN
>>>are *not* from the burning of coke, but from the *production* of coke,
>>>which is done under oxygen free conditions. And yet he continues to
>>>accuse other people of being deceptive, when he is trying to make it
>>>look like “coke flue gases” have anything whatsoever to do with the
>>>crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
>>
>> As you know, Sgt. Schutz, my one connection was “probably more” and yet
>>you continue to maintain that the flue gas as a source is really
>>distilation. You further pretend that a banked fire is not oxygen
>>starved which is all that is required.

>Do I understand correctly that Mr. Giwer is now disavowing his previous
>claim that burning coke produces HCN?

Not in the least

>Do I understand correctly that Mr. Giwer is now disavowing his previous
>claim that burning atmospheric nitrogen produces HCN?

have I retracted from my observation that you are attempting to deceive.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 11:03:33 PDT 1996
Article: 44053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:01:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 11:02:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:28538 alt.revisionism:44053 alt.politics.white-power:32778 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23031 alt.conspiracy:59620 alt.activism:54767

[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:

>> ([email protected]) writes:

>>(snip)

>>> I thought I had met stupidity before but I guess I haven’t til this remark.
>>>
>>> Hey stupid, go read the history books. Make a trip to the camps. Look at the
>>> photos taken of it. Talk to surviors of it and to there families.
>>>
>>(snip – some crap about a tanker seeing something somewhere)

>>>> Excuse me, but Wiesenthal says there were never any death camps in
>>>> Germany. So how did a US tank driver see one?
>>>
>>> And who in the hell is Wiesenthal?

>>EXCUSE ME?!? You don’t know who Simon Weisenthal is? The head huckster
>>of many a hollow-cause tall tale? And you have the nerve to call anyone
>>else stupid?

>>> Guess that’s a part of history I haven’t
>>> read? And why do you feel this Wiesenthal is correct and not the rest of
>>> what is available as fact.

>>Because Wiesenthal’ a jew, a survivor, and a hollow-cause propagandist. He also
>>killed Josef Megele, even though Mengele didn’t die of the gunshot wound
>>Wiesenthal claims to have killed him with.

>Let’s clarify a few points:

>1) Wiesenthal has stated that there were no “death camps” in Germany.
>This is in fact true. The five camps used exclusively for
>exterminationn were all in occupied Poland, in fact in a part of
>Poland not annexed to the Reich–Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, Belzec
>and Majdanek. The largest death camp, Auschwitz, was also a slave
>labor camp and also in Poland. HOWEVER, there were other camps all
>throughout the Reich and occupied territories that were mainly for
>detention and labor, but millions died in them. Anne Frank was
>incarcerated in Bergen-Belsen, where she died of typhus in 1945.
>Bergen-Belsen is in Germany. the first concentration camp was Dachau,
>also in Germany. Theriesenstadt, one of the “better” camps, was in
>the part of Czechoslovakia (Sudeten) annexed to the Reich. This camp
>served as a way station to the death camps.

>2) Wiesenthal may not have shot Mengele, but I’m glad he didn’t,
>because it would have been a waste of valuable lead.

>3) Les Griswold is an idiot.

>Andrew Mathis
>————————————-
>”If they give you ruled paper,
>Write the other way.”
> –Juan Ramon Jimenez

If they give you ruled paper, you need it.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 12:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 44057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Degesh 2
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 05:21:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 324
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16 10:22:47 PM PDT 1996
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:44078 sci.chem:37140

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>>Yes or no?

>> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust stories.
>>If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.

>> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don’t forget
>>the pea sized silica gel.

>This fact has been posted several times. Even pictures have been posted.
>The Giwer-troll knows full well that he is wrong again.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

>–
>Gord McFee

>.. I’ll write no line before its time([email protected])
>– MR/2 2.26 #331

>

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 16:39:29 PDT 1996
Article: 59655 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.co-evolution,sci.skeptic,sci.space.policy,alt.athiesm,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.censorship,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: The Question
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:30:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Dragon) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Kennel) wrote:

>>Anthony Potts ([email protected]) wrote:

>>: On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Jon Broughton wrote:

>>: >
>>: > although as any physicist will know, the ultimation of matter is energy
>>: > despite being created by it. Matter is a period of energy in time. Energy
>>: > is infinite as is eternity. Matter can thus be taken to be the only true
>>: > expression and physical nature of time.
>>: >
>>: > the amount of matter in the universe has to by law of physics eventually
>>: > turn into heat energy until all matter is lost and thus only enrgy in a
>>: > pure form is left (the end of time?)
>>: >
>>: >
>>: Well, I don’t know about this. Energy tends to need a form in which to
>>: express itself (vibrating atoms, massive electrons, energetic photons)
>>: and so on, and there is no evidence that photons, electrons or hydrogen
>>: atoms are going to decay. I think that most physicists would be a little
>>: unhappy with your first sentence as well, as it doesn’t seem to make
>>: very much sense.

>>Yes.

>>Please people: there is no such thing as ‘pure energy’, no matter what
>>Star Trek says.

>>”mass” is not converted into “energy”.

>>There are legal reaction channels which convert ‘stuff’
>>which has non-zero rest mass into other kinds of ‘stuff’
>>which may have zero rest mass.

>>Still, it’s always specific “stuff” going into specific “stuff”.

>>Energy conservation, and many other particular rules in addition,
>>constrains these processes.

>>The ‘rules’ of the reaction channels are what is known as
>>’physical law’.

>>: Cheers,

>>: Anthony Potts
>>: CERN

>>–
>>Matthew B. Kennel/[email protected]/I do not speak for ORNL, DOE or UT
>>Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/
>>*NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It’s an abuse of Federal Government computer resources
>>and an affront to common civility.
>ok, cern..

>but what about the 10 dimensions,
>and black holes, and light always
>rides on the 5th dimension..huh huh huh ?

Where in the hell did you get this nonsense?

>and if you could resonate at jjuusssttt the right
>frequency, where would you go ?

>Stuff is everywhere-space is a misnomer, it is more like
>clear stuff, because there is a definable field at every
>damn point anywhere you can point to…and where there
>is a field, there must be something to -carry- the field, no ?

>resonate something, some stuff, and when it syncs
>at your desired dimension, well, then, hyperspace
>is yours…

>too bad you need e-n-e-r-g-y to do it.

>make me a controllable field about house-sized and
>then you’ll see some serious shit go down…

>that technology is about 70 years away, at last guess.

You need to learn something about physics some day. OF course you thing
it is unnecessary.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 16:51:12 PDT 1996
Article: 44086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:14:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 127
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Laura Finsten wrote:

>mg[email protected] wrote:
>>Laura Finsten wrote:

>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>Keith Morrison wrote:

>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>>>>> Of interest is always those bones sent to the grinder. In the process
>>>>>> of the human body burning the two bones most likely to be left are the
>>>>>> pelvis and the skull. Yet in the few cases (for the partial cremation,
>>>>>> charred advocates this is unfortunate) where bones are in fact
>>>>>> mentioned, the skull is not mentioned.

>>>>>I won’t ask how many bones compose the skull and pelvis (because
>>>>>I know he doesn’t have a clue) but I will ask where this piece of
>>>>>data comes from.

>>>> Gee, now just where do I start with this one? There are numerous
>>>>approaches to answer it.

>>>Might I suggest you start with either an anatomy text, or a text on
>>>skeletal anatomy. Your answer below indicates you need a great deal
>>>of help.

>> I have.

>Really? Which one?

Have you never heard of Grey’s Anatomy?

>[cut]

>>>>Q: How many bones compose the skull and pelvis?
>>>>A: The skull, two in an adult, counting the jaw, discounting the six
>>>>small bones in the ear. The pelvis, one.

>>>> What did I miss?

>>>A bunch more bones, in both the skull and the pelvis. Thanks for
>>>playing, but you got an F.

>> I mentioned the pelvic bone. How many bones do you find in the pelvic
>>bone?

>The pelvis is not a bone. The pelvis consists of a number of bones.
>Go back to your book and look it up.

There is the pelvic region. There is also the huge bone that connects
the legs and the spine. Take a look at Grey’s Anatomy for the first
time.

>> Please name the other bones in the skull. Perhaps you should give the
>>book a read some day.

>No, you name the bones in the skull. What book should I read, Mr.
>Giwer? I’ve got two skeletal anatomy texts sitting right here beside
>my computer.

As expected, you will make a claim that I am in error and not support
it. And please do not forget, I mentioned the bones in the ear and the
jaw. So please, name the rest.

Or will you continue to claim I am in error? Or will you look at the
skull of a child and claim that in adults those bones have not fused
into a single bone?

>>>> Or are you insisting I have a source of authority? Try Grey’s Anatomy.
>>>>I am certain you can find a copy of that.

>>>Since you are way off the mark in your answer, you should try a “source
>>>of authority”.

>> DEMONSTRATE that I am “way off” some time before you die.

>No, look it up in a book and find out for yourself. You’re always
>telling other people to do their own homework. I don’t need to look
>it up in a book. I know the answer. You don’t. Look it up. Is
>skeletal anatomy real “science” with true truths, Mr. Giwer? You
>oughta be able to wrap your 163 IQ around it if you make a little
>effort.

And you will continue to attempt to deceive people that you actually
know what you are talking about when you are merely making this up as
you go along.

>>>> Or do you want to know why those are the two most likely to be left?

>>>> Look it up under forensics/fires.

>>>No, Mr. Giwer, why don’t you explain this claim?

>> I did. That is the way it is. I can not change that. You can not
>>change that.

>Uh, no, you did not explain it. You can change your failure to
>explain this claim, though, if you are willing to do something other
>than troll.

As expected from the physical equal of fat broad.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
From: [email protected]com.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT

4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:44 PDT 1996
Article: 24559 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:32:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>>> On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, [email protected] (al willis)
>wrote:
>>>
>>> >I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million.
>>> >If this took place over 48 months, that’s 125,000 deaths a
>>> >month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis

>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.

There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
rate.

>The 6,000,000 figure applies to Jews. There were an additional
>6,000,000 non-Jews killed for ethnic reasons.

Actually the number includes all of those from a
counterproductive approach to dealing the partisans and other
clearly political and military causes.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:46 PDT 1996
Article: 24560 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:49:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:56:40 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, [email protected] (al willis) wrote:
>>
>>>>I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million.
>>>>If this took place over 48 months, that’s 125,000 deaths a
>>>>month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis
>>
>>>Ask Pat Buchanan.
>>
>>>I think that if you will check a history book, Al, you will find that
>>>the Nazis were in power for a bit more than 4 years.
>>
>>>Of course, if you are just some sort neo-Nazi revisionist then you
>>>already know the answer and are just trolling. We will assume you are
>>>just ignorant and not spiteful and full of hate, until you prove
>>>otherwise.
>>
>> All of the commonly referenced Nizkor sources say the
>>”extermination” started in the fall of 1941 at the earliest.
>>
>> If you disagree with four years, contact them.

>Semantics Matt. Are you claiming that your favorite Goosesteppers
>killed no Jews until 1941?

>Watch his sidestep this one folks.

Sidestep what? Your “favorite goosestepper” line? That would
take an Arkansas two-step at least.

But if you disagree with Nizkor, contact them and keep your
holohugger name calling to a minimum.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:47 PDT 1996
Article: 24562 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:05:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:

>The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.

>As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.

Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.

But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all
equally true.

>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of
>crap, questioning the Holocaust. They’d be more honest if they simply
>admitted it and said they’re only sorry the job wasn’t finished. But
>such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical
>liars by nature..

What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in
question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration
and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer
to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the
records recording the cause of death.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:48 PDT 1996
Article: 24566 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:47:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Erik Marksberry wrote:

> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>the Nazi party.

Actually a quite limited bit of truth.

The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put
together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in
the Reichstag.

Between then and March international Jewish organizations
organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the
middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week
later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany
organized by the Nazis.

The permanent international boycott continued and at that point
the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were
instituted.

You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in
March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies.

=====

Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:49 PDT 1996
Article: 24597 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:09:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:

>>Before you embarass yourself here, why don’t you read up on the history
>>of the Holocaust. It began in early 1942. Before that time Jews were
>>treated quite horribly.. deported, forced into ghettos, dying of
>>disease and starvation, etc… but the actual death camps did not come
>>into being until ’42.

>An interesting issue: When, indeed, did it all begin? Did it
>begin in 1922, when a young Hitler spoke of hanging Jews from
>the lamp-posts of Munich?

Golly gee whiz. A man that splept in the barracks every night
while awaiting the time to gain German citizenship speaks out
against EXACTLY what were the worldwide Jewish organiztions that
later organized an economic boycott of Germany in barely four
months.

But how many were hung?

What actions NOT RHETORIC were taken against Jews before that
international boycott?

Of course, none.

>Did it begin with Kristallnacht?

The above is where it started, in response to the international
boycott.

>Did
>it begin when “being Jewish” was officially described as
>sufficient rationale for being mentally ill, and thus eligible
>for “euthanasia?”

If you have a URL for this, fine. Otherwise, please stop making
us such nonsense. Someone might be dumb enough to believe you.

>Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?

How many?

What is the number?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:50 PDT 1996
Article: 24603 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:23:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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“D. Braun” wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>
>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>> >As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>> >”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>>
>> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.

>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.

>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>died of natural causes? What?

Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.

The documentation of what you claim was all generated by the
Soviets who, for example, claimed that cancer was an infectuous
disease, and that the Nazis were responsible for the murders of
Katyn Woods.

As for the gassing there is only contradictory testimony
regarding gassing and ZERO physical evidence. Gassing or no,
Zyklon B would have been shipped to the camps. The holohuggers
hold that the “killing” amount was so low it would not have shown
up on the records.

There are no documented gas chambers. Descriptions of them from
“witenesses” are never good enough to match the currently claimed
gas chambers.

The “architecutural plan” is hardly more than an artist’s
conception and better matches a bomb shelter as there is NO
literature as to what would match a gas chamber.

Other than that, there is even less substance to what remains.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:50 PDT 1996
Article: 24608 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:41:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>
>>>The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>>>squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>>>inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>>>killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>>>camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>>>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>>>As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>>>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>>>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>>>”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>>>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>>
>> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>>there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>>records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
>>
>> But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all
>>equally true.
>>
>>>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of
>>>crap, questioning the Holocaust. They’d be more honest if they simply
>>>admitted it and said they’re only sorry the job wasn’t finished. But
>>>such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical
>>>liars by nature..
>>
>> What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in
>>question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration
>>and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer
>>to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the
>>records recording the cause of death.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Been spending too much time in your leather Gestapo uniform lately?

>As has been said elsewhere, your revisionist bullshit is not welcome
>here.

>This is alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, not
>alt.homosexual.revisionist.nazi.

First you ask me to take it out of your favorite conference and I
decline to reply.

Next you defend the lies of the holohuggers and expect no response.

Will you please get yout signals straight?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:51 PDT 1996
Article: 24609 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>CHUCK FERREE writes:

>Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was
>a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the
>first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man
>get a little bit of your history straight.

Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
the date, deal with them.

Get back to me when you have straightened them out.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:52 PDT 1996
Article: 24612 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:30:29 GMT
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[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>>
>>Erik Marksberry wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>>>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>>>the Nazi party.
>>
>> Actually a quite limited bit of truth.
>>
>> The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put
>>together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in
>>the Reichstag.
>>
>> Between then and March international Jewish organizations
>>organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the
>>middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week
>>later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany
>>organized by the Nazis.
>>
>> The permanent international boycott continued and at that point
>>the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were
>>instituted.
>>
>> You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in
>>March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies.
>>
>>=====
>>
>> Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision.
>>
>>
>Go away.

If you have a problem with facts that are sworn to by Nizkor I would
suggest you take it up with them.

Please remember that the Nizkor Gang told me to learn and I studied
their website. In this case I point out what they are saying is true.

Your gripe is with them, not with me.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:53 PDT 1996
Article: 24617 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:57:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>>>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>>>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>>>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>>>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>>>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>>
>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>rate.

>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of the
>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation that
>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>construction of crematoria.

A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. I have
no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.

Remember it was all Soviet information and they in the person of Rudenko
were willing to lie in an attempt to get a conviction.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:55 PDT 1996
Article: 24677 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:08:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:

>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>rate.
>>
>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>the
>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>that
>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>construction of crematoria.
>>
>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>I have
>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.

>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards
>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>Nuremburg War Trials.

I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not
questionable statements produced by the Soviets.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:55 PDT 1996
Article: 24692 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:04:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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“D. Braun” wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> “D. Braun” wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >> “D. Braun” wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >> >> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >> >> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >> >> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >> >> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >> >> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>> >> >> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>> >> >> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>> >> >> >”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>> >> >> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>> >> >> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>> >> >> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
>> >>
>> >> >??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>> >> >documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>> >> >the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>> >> >survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>> >> >architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>> >>
>> >> >Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>> >> >died of natural causes? What?
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>> >> ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>> >I was referingf to the figure combining Jews and non-Jews. Your propaganda
>> >is extremely weak—- of the you say its white, I say its black variety.
>> >What the hell is a “holohugger”, shithead!!! Maybe you could tell me
>> >where a few dozen relatives on mt father;s side went—on vacation!!!!???
>> >You are a worthless piece of shit, and if you were lying in the road, I
>> >would not only not swerve, I would back up and run you over again.
>> >You area miserable excuse for humanity. Who the fuck are you, anyway?
>> >Maybe you should post your real name and address so someone can put an end
>> >to your miseravble existence!!!
>>
>> It is not clear how to deal with your problem.
>>
>> The SWC states very clearly that the “Holocaust” applies only to the
>> what happened to the Jews. If you disagree, take it up with them.
>>
>> Holohugger is very similar to a holoworshipper. Those who will lie to
>> preserve gassing because the love the idea of martyrdom. Very Christian
>> actually.
>>
>> As to your family, perhaps they were among the 1.6 million deported to
>> Siberia by the Soviets from Poland alone. Perhaps they were among the 2
>> million conscripted to be part of the human wave to charge the German
>> lines.
>>
>> But it is clear that your love of death and gore indicated by your post
>> shows you truly are infatuated with the idea of death and related
>> nastiness.
>>
>> You are sick. You wax ecstatic just thinking about death.

>I won’t respond to your drivel, except to say that some of those that got
>away volunteered in a Jewish brigade, and fought in North Africa with
>distinction killing Germans.

I would certainly hope that is who they were killing.

A weird thing happened recently; my
>sister married a guy whose father was captured in North Africa by the
>British; my own relatives could have been shooting at each other. No one
>tried to kill each other at the wedding— they got along great. You, on
>the other hand, are a disgrace to any race or nationality;

Just who is stupid enough to think such a thing is possible?

you wish to
>erase history in order to prop up your venomous, hate-filled view of the
>world, to somehow justify your exalted delusional status as a member of
>the “master race”. The Nazi’s were defeated 51 years ago. Get a clue.
>BTW, I would still not swerve around you in the road.

You appear to be assuming something that is both not in evidence and not
true.

But I would suggest you inform the holohuggers the Nazis have been gone
for 51 years. They see them everywhere.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:56 PDT 1996
Article: 24702 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:19:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] wrote:

> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>”D. Braun” wrote:

>>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>>>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.

>>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>>>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>>
>>>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>>>died of natural causes? What?
>>
>> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.

>I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies
>and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too.

5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is
in the camps. If you add up the camps you don’t find enough dead. So
we have these wandering Einsatzgruppen to take up the slack to keep the
number about the same no matter how many millions the camp deaths are
reduced by.

>[Giwar babbles on claiming there is no evidence]

Why don’t you post some?

>For those interested in what kind of evidence there is I suggest a look
>at http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ if you are into being sickly amused
>try http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar01.html

I have looked at a lot of it. I have posted a lot of it here pointing
out the nonsense in it. You should read some of it skeptically also.
Lately I have posted incontrovertable proof that Treblinka had
crematoria, a witness said so. I posted incontrovertable evidence that
cancer is an infectous disease, a witness said so.

I have even found the really true truth about Zyklon-B was first used
and how exposure to Zyklon-B causes flesh and clothing to fuse into
gelatinous blobs that “some times disintegrated when the members of the
detail tried to pick them up” two days later.

I find the site very useful to point out that absolute nonsense that
passes for truth on Nizkor.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:57 PDT 1996
Article: 24734 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp
>guards
>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>>
>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones
>not
>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.

>Read the post carefully. I didn’t mention “questionable statements
>produced by the Soviets.”

>Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of
>former camp guards and former prisoners.

Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you
claim that is true, where did this occur?

>Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur?

I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only.
Why would you confuse the two?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:58 PDT 1996
Article: 24736 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:07:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Erik Marksberry wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >>”D. Braun” wrote:
>>
>> >>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >>>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>> >>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>> >>>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>> >>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>> >>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>> >>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>> >>
>> >>>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>> >>>died of natural causes? What?
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>> >>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>> >I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies
>> >and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too.
>>
>> 5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is
>> in the camps. If you add up the camps you don’t find enough dead.

>[snip]

> Could you post the numbers of dead found at each camp, complete with
>the appropriate references?

Read the fucking NG. A holohugger claimed within the last two days that
there were 1 million attributable to the roving death squads.

And also learn that there were never 5.2 million dead found as that is
what all of the cremation and vanishing ashes claims are all about.

You really need to carefully read the claims of the holohuggers here
before you continue. Nothing I have said to you so far disagrees with
their position.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:11:59 PDT 1996
Article: 24741 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:01:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>I’ll repeat! The Nazis established Dachau, long before the war
>started. So if you don’t believe this, you are not only more stupid
>that we all think you are, you’re also too fucking lazy to check it
>out.

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
>> >>the date, deal with them.

>So what are we talking about here, idiot? You say on the one hand
>1942, than you switch to 1933 so you can call me a liar. This is
>bullshit, Gwier, you know it and I know it. Facts never did mean
>doodely-shit to you, and they still don’t. You’re just a street
>brawler, looking for a fight, and let me tell ya, pal, I’d kick your
>ass so quick, you’d think you were in the city of the Angels.
>> >>
>> >> Get back to me when you have straightened them out.

>Fuck you. You get back to me when you can tell the correct time by
>looking at a clock.
>>
>> >Don’t fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by
>> >arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust
>> >revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble.

>Thanks, but have no fear, everyone knows this turkey. He’s in need of
>help, AA, or some such outfit. But until he wants to hehave like a
>normal human being, he’s just another asshole to me.
>>
>> And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower
>> steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree?
>>
>> >He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud
>> >of it.
>>
>> >Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original
>> >question until he answers it. But don’t hold your breath.
>>
>> There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there
>> was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting?

>Say what? Try what by what? Matt, go back to running one of those
>sweatshops where you make lots of money off the labor of others.
>You are a total waste of time. But I’ll bet you’re a cute MF!

The people you have stated are your friends do not quote you, do not
support you, and clearly wish you would shut up.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:00 PDT 1996
Article: 24749 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:26:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>>>Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>>>when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?
>>
>> How many?
>>
>> What is the number?

>If you are literate and are able to read beyond a 5th grade level, you might
>try going to the history section of your local library. I am sure they can
>supply you with the information and, who knows, you might actually learn
>something.

>This is all a matter of record and I am sure if you write the German
>authorities they will be glad to give you the approapriate information from the
>trials where it is all documented in typical Nazi detail.

>URL: any library on the face of the earth.

So you are saying that if I find such a number and post it that no
holohugger will object to it? I did not think so.

I am really quite surprised you folks do not have such a number right
off the top of your heads. Just for openers I can add 1.2 M + 0.8 M + 1
M from A-B, Treblinka and Einsatzgruppen respectively and have 3 M.

At least those numbers I have from holohuggers. How about another
million for all the rest of the death camps? Sound reasonable to you?

We can deal with the remaining 1.2 M from disease, accident, age and the
like later.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:01 PDT 1996
Article: 24752 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:58:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>>>CHUCK FERREE writes:
>>
>>>Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was
>>>a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the
>>>first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man
>>>get a little bit of your history straight.
>>
>> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
>>the date, deal with them.
>>
>> Get back to me when you have straightened them out.

>Don’t fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by
>arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust
>revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble.

And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower
steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree?

>He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud
>of it.

>Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original
>question until he answers it. But don’t hold your breath.

There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there
was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:02 PDT 1996
Article: 24757 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:21:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Juergen Langowski) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>>>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>>>>>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>>>>>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>>>>>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>>>>>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>>>>>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>>>>
>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>rate.

>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of the
>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation that
>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>construction of crematoria.

>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. I have
>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.

>> Remember it was all Soviet information and they in the person of Rudenko
>>were willing to lie in an attempt to get a conviction.

>Well, Mr. Giwer, concerning the existence of mass graves, I have a
>German source for you.

>Since you are able to judge translations, I take it you are able to
>read this text in the original language.

> Noch im Sommer 1942 wurden die Leichen
> in die Massengräber gebracht. Erst Ende des
> Sommers fingen wir an mit der Verbrennung;
> zuerst auf einem Holzstoß mit ca. 2000 Leichen,
> nachher in den Gruben mit den wieder freigelegten
> Leichen aus der früheren Zeit.[1]

>It’s your turn now, Mr. Giwer. Please translate this quote for the
>convenience of those who can’t read German.

>Then we’ll discuss your translation, and then we’ll discuss what is
>written in this text.

>A hint – “Massengräber” is German for “mass graves”.

>A second hint – the first sentence should not read: “In the summer of
>1942 there were no mass graves.”

That is about as cute as it is stupid. Would you like to try for idiot
of the year award?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:03 PDT 1996
Article: 24792 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:12:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:35:51 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>”R. Goforth” wrote:
>>
>>>> > Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>>>> >ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>>>The figure of 11-12 million is correct. There were about 6 million Jews
>>>killed, the remaining 5-6 million were Roma (Gypsies), communists, the
>>>mentally ill, disabled people, different slavic groups (considered
>>>sub-human), assorted european tribes exterminated by allies of the Nazis
>>>(groups like the Croats used the Nazi occupation to carry out their own
>>>genocidal acts) and vasrious other political undesirables.
>>
>>>In addition, around 20 million Soviet citizens died fighting off the Axis
>>>forces (from battle, disease, starvation).
>>
>> In CAMPS.

>The battles in WWII between the Russians and the Nazis were fought in
>camps Matt?

What does that have to do with the subject under discussion? Do you
have the least idea what the subject is?

The holohuggers corrected me when I said something very similar with the
same correction I am making now. If you disagree with the correction
you have a lot of people to deal with besides me.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:04 PDT 1996
Article: 24794 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:33:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>>Chuck Ferree writes:

>>I’ll repeat! The Nazis established Dachau, long before the war
>>started. So if you don’t believe this, you are not only more stupid
>>that we all think you are, you’re also too fucking lazy to check it
>>out.

>Actually I can’t describe how silly and stupid I think Matt Giwer is.
>It is based on what he posts here. Of course, on-line behavior and
>personality is sometimes different from those real people we meet on
>the street. I do hope that Mr. Giwer is a different soul in reality.

I had thought you would know better than Ferree but it appears you need
the SWC to educate you also. Where do you see it being established as a
camp for Jews as he stated? The SWC mentions them as an afterthought
and clearly indicates they were far from the primary purpose of the camp
at the time. In fact it is clear there were no Jews sent there solely
for being Jews.

From the Q&A

13. When was the first concentration camp established and who
were the first inmates?

Answer: The first concentration camp, Dachau, opened on March 22,
1933. The camp’s first inmates were primarily political
prisoners (e.g. Communists or Social Democrats); habitual
criminals; homosexuals; Jehovah’s Witnesses; and “anti-socials”
(beggars, vagrants, hawkers). Others considered problematic by
the Nazis (e.g. Jewish writers and journalists, lawyers,
unpopular industrialists, and political officials) were also
included.

When are you folks going to learn what you are talking about?

You will also notice this was the day after the well known newspaper
coverage of the economic boycott by many world Jewish organizations
against Germany. Setting up a camp in 24 hours can hardly be a response
to the boycott.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:05 PDT 1996
Article: 24816 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; TEN million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 05:15:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Matt Carey wrote:

>Sorry to bandstand here, but this is a personal bug I have:

>The Holocaust, as I was taught, Killed 10 Million people. 6 million were
>jews, the rest were other “udesirables” (e.g. gypsies, homosexuals, the
>chronically unemplyed….). Whenever we forget those 4 million, we do an
>emense disservice–exactly the sort of disservice that we are trying to
>avoid with holocaust rememberance.

True but the holocaust is Jews only. You should not forget that.

And we have already discovered that there were 250,000 acts of
individual heroism to save Jews that should not be emphasized so as to
distort in desired image of the holocaust.

The purpose of this to control the way in which the holocaust is viewed.
It is not history the holohuggers want to control but the way history is
viewed. It is like Britain selectively declaring war on Germany but not
on Russia. They want you to view it as a requirement of a mutual
defense pact with Poland and to ignore the selective requirement.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:06 PDT 1996
Article: 24893 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:35:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>writes:

>>>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>>>rate.
>>>>
>>>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>>>the
>>>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>>>that
>>>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>>>construction of crematoria.
>>>>
>>>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>>>I have
>>>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.

>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards
>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>Nuremburg War Trials.

>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not
>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.

>What questionable statements did the soviets produce. Oh, and don’t do
>the silly “read the NG” cop out line. If missed it then repost it. It
>shouldn’t cause you much strain, you like to post. It would be nice if
>you would post something of substance rather than trollisms. Come on,
>I think you can do it. :-/

What is your problem? I am supposed to look thinks up but you are too
good for it? Why is that?

Or did you miss the testimony the Russians produced to try to get
Germans executed for Katyn Woods?

Everyone agrees that was a lie. Yet the Soviets had the statements to
back up the claim.

Did you miss the description of the steaming rooms and the boiler and
the piping at Treblinka? The subject is something like “Hey Keren”.
That was a Soviet produced story also. As was the story crematoria at
Treblinka and that more were going to be built to handle the load. That
was a Soviet story also.

So why would you trust any Soviet produced statements? And remember
that they were responsible for ALL investigations of everything that was
in the territories they liberated and for the parts of Germany they
conquered.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:07 PDT 1996
Article: 24900 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:51:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>
>>>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp
>>>guards
>>>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones
>>>not
>>>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>>
>>>Read the post carefully. I didn’t mention “questionable statements
>>>produced by the Soviets.”
>>
>>>Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of
>>>former camp guards and former prisoners.
>>
>> Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you
>>claim that is true, where did this occur?

>Dodge the question with another totally irrelevant question as usual
>Matt.

The only question in this little exchange in mine. You appear to have
such a knee jerk response that you see questions where there are no
questions.

Do you also smell land where they be no land?

>>>Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur?
>>
>> I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only.
>>Why would you confuse the two?

>He has confused nothing Matt. He is trying to pin you down. And you
>dodge the question again. Same old Giwer shit.

>Lets see you answer his question Matt. Do you honestly believe the
>Holocaust did not occur?

You folks constantly confuse belief with knowledge.

You folks also never get around to defining what you mean. The SWC did
do that. I posted it here just last week. They restrict it to Jews
only which is ridiculous. They also have the number wrong.

So why do you not post your definition first? Then I will tell you if I
have found convincing evidence for your definition. I may even post
contradictory evidence.

>Watch him avoid this one and change the subject again.

>Giwer the Liar!

You have still not matured. You have come into this late along with
Hart. You are setting discussion back months.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:08 PDT 1996
Article: 25032 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:45:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jason Hatch) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>: >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>: >>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:

>: >>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:

>: >>>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>: >>>>>>rate.
>: >>>>
>: >>>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>: >>>the
>: >>>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>: >>>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>: >>>that
>: >>>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>: >>>>>construction of crematoria.
>: >>>>
>: >>>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>: >>>I have
>[hodge-podge deleted]

> I am not as well versed in events and details as most. I’ve got
>what I’ve learned in school, footage I’ve seen, documentaries I’ve
>watched, and web pages I’ve viewed as my sole background in the holocaust.
>I’ve watched all of this in horror and disgust.

Lots cut …

> Does bickering about mass graves and what not move us closer to
>ensuring that it doesn’t happen again? Sure, we must endeavor to make
>believers of us all; but can anyone watch official footage of a bull-dozer
>moving piles of bony bodies into a ditch, look at the ribs protruding from
>the starving children, or even view the propaganda-posters from that
>period and deny that SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENED?

You have a very long and moderately passionate comment.

Save you miss the basic point. There is absolutely ZERO physical
evidence that any of this ever occurred in the first place. I do not
see why you do not notice that.

The discussion of details you seem to be objecting to are all related to
the claims that those details are proof when they are not.

Note for example the mindless and weekly recycling by Keren. When you
put it all together he has about 30 people out of some 300,000 who were
involved in this war-time mess. That is far fewer than the expected
number of whackos who would say anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

The terrible thing that happened was losing the war. The German army
suffered as much from the same problems of starvation. And then you
read the claim that the allies did not care about Jews and should have
bombed either the camps or the rail lines?

Can you read the complaints? Bomb the camps and kill inmates by
bombing? Bomb the rail lines and shut off the food and medicine
supplies? Really, they want the endgame to have happened sooner than it
did.

We know that Auschwitz was evacuated and that people were given a choice
of evacuation or liberation by the Russians. And we know the worst
cases were left behind or chose to be liberated and that is what hte
Russians found. So what sinister impllications do you want to draw from
what any rational person would expect to be what was discovered?

I really do not see what your problem is here.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:09 PDT 1996
Article: 25038 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:27:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> ,<[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Erik Marksberry wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Erik Marksberry wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [email protected] wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >> >>”D. Braun” wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >> >>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >> >>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >> >>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >> >>>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >> >>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>> >>
>> >> >>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>> >> >>>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>> >> >>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>> >> >>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>> >> >>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>> >> >>>died of natural causes? What?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>> >> >>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>> >>
>> >> >I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies
>> >> >and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too.
>> >>
>> >> 5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is
>> >> in the camps. If you add up the camps you don’t find enough dead.
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> > Could you post the numbers of dead found at each camp, complete with
>> >the appropriate references?
>>
>> Read the fucking NG. A holohugger claimed within the last two days that
>> there were 1 million attributable to the roving death squads.

> I do read the fucking NG. What I have not read is your refutation
>of that figure. Why is it wrong?

I did not say it was wrong. I said it was not the number I was looking
for. I also explained why it was not the number I was looking for.

>> And also learn that there were never 5.2 million dead found as that is
>> what all of the cremation and vanishing ashes claims are all about.
>>
>> You really need to carefully read the claims of the holohuggers here
>> before you continue. Nothing I have said to you so far disagrees with
>> their position.

> And you really need to post the numbers you are screaming about if
>you expect people to take you seriously. You claim that there were
>never 5.2 million. Fine. Post how many bodies were found in each
>camp, with references, so we can either refute or accept your assertation.

I agree with the holohuggers. There were never 5.2M bodies found. No
holohugger claims there were. What do you expect me to do?

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:10 PDT 1996
Article: 25191 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:08:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>Erik Marksberry wrote:

>>> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>>>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>>>the Nazi party.

>> Actually a quite limited bit of truth.

>Oh..oh. I suspect we are about to be treated to the Giwer-troll version of
>history . Its distinguishing characteristic is that it is wrong and
>slanted. Let’s see what happens today.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

=====

Good enough for today?

>> The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put together a
>>governing coalition of the parties which held seats in the Reichstag.

>Wrong. The Nazis came to power in January 1933 when Hitler was named
>Chancellor by the Reichpresident. The “coalition” was not put together
>until March 1933, by which time Hitler had banned the Communist Party. That
>made achieving a majority in the March 1933 elections somewhat easier, since
>around 80 seats in the Reichstag had “disappeared”.

You really do need to learn something about both parliamentary forms of
government and what in fact happened.

>> Between then and March international Jewish organizations
>>organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the middle of
>>the Depression. They announced it in March. One week later there was a
>>one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany organized by the Nazis.

>Wrong. This has all been posted several times. The one-day boycott by the
>Nazis was one day only because of the threat of a worldwide boycott of
>German goods. The so-called international boycott was the result of German
>harassment of Jews.

>This is about par for the course for the Giwer-troll. Two assertions–two
>mistakes.

You insist upon presenting things in a backwards and in fact impossible
order. There was absolutely ZERO harrassment of Jews by Nazis before
the boycott.

But of course, be the latest to attempt to modify history. Post the
harrassment.

Hint: Mere rhetoric is not harrassment.

Again you have no idea what happened.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:12:11 PDT 1996
Article: 25192 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:09:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]ws3.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>>Since you are able to judge translations, I take it you are able to
>>>read this text in the original language.

>>> Noch im Sommer 1942 wurden die Leichen
>>> in die Massengräber gebracht. Erst Ende des
>>> Sommers fingen wir an mit der Verbrennung;
>>> zuerst auf einem Holzstoß mit ca. 2000 Leichen,
>>> nachher in den Gruben mit den wieder freigelegten
>>> Leichen aus der früheren Zeit.[1]

>>>It’s your turn now, Mr. Giwer. Please translate this quote for the
>>>convenience of those who can’t read German.

>Gee, I don’t see the Giwer-troll’s translation anywhere.

>>>Then we’ll discuss your translation, and then we’ll discuss what is
>>>written in this text.

>>>A hint – “Massengräber” is German for “mass graves”.

>>>A second hint – the first sentence should not read: “In the summer of
>>>1942 there were no mass graves.”

>> That is about as cute as it is stupid. Would you like to try for idiot
>>of the year award?

>I still don’t see the Giwer-troll’s translation. Is it possible he doesn’t
>know what the text says? Is it possible that….========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT

” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:21:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44087 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:09:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>>Looks the Giwer-troll is annoyed again because Nizkor has archived his
>>>rubbish, and it is there for all to see, demonstarting what a pathetic
>lying
>>>scumbag he is.

>> The only thing that annoys me is that they are denying that their method
>>of archiving is dishonest and unethical. It is clearly done for the sole
>>purpose of deception. Which of course is all that can be expected of
>>holoworhippers.

>And the proof of that statement is…?

>>>> Too bad the email conspiracy was mentioned by one of them in a post else
>>>>they would be claiming it is spontanious.

>>>Ain’t life a bitch? Another Giwer-troll invention.

>> But of course it occurred and certainly Nizkor deleted all
>>mention of it as is the wont of the dishonest.

>And the proof of that statement is…?

>>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine,

>> You were unable to determine this on your own, little one.

>Indeed. It took a couple of Giwer-troll posts before I was sure. But only
>a couple.

Get used to it McFly, there is no one in there.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: another kind of gassing
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:35:03 GMT

: “There was no gas chamber in the camp in working order (!). A gas
chamber was being
built in the crematorium and in January 1945, work was going on at a
high speed. The chamber
was soon completed except for the gas boiler (?). A railway worker who
had to go in and out of
the camp told me that a boiler had arrived at the Ostbanhof, Munich,
>from Auschwitz. But this
boiler, together with many gas cylinders had been destroyed in an air
raid.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 17:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 44093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netc