From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42371 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 05:55:49 GMT
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> Excuse me but when I first posted regarding the grounds for
>> Pohl’s conviction there was no disagreement with my statement.
>> It was posted with the Nuremberg referenences.
> I checked. It wasn’t. You have never given a citation to either the
>indictment or the judgment of conviction. There was a bald statement that he was
>”acquited” and then retried in Poland. In fact, he was convicted by the IMT.
Fine. You checked. What did you check? Where is the reference?
What does it say? Please be specific.
As to your “where convicted” routine, what I posted was with IMT
references to the conviction.
So just what did you find he was convicted of?
>> BTW: I have just come across a major (far beyond copyright
>> violation) section from a CD-ROM on the holocaust. I do not have
>> enough on it yet to deal with it. What strikes me about so far
>> is that its 270k on Pohl and codefendents direct from Nuremberg
>> do not mention gassing or steaming once or any variation thereof.
>> Nor does it mention the grounds for conviction so it is very
>> incomplete.
> I.e. Giwer finally did some research, found an account of thrial and
>found it did not agree with his invention. He therefore describes it as incomplete.
>Most “scientists” collect their data before they announce conclusions. Giwer
>pursues a different methodology and then whines when the data disagrees with
>him.
Unlike you, any attorney would know that the omission of the
disposition of the case is an incomplete recounting of any trial.
But then I would not make such a claim on your behalf.
>> When I get more I will post it.
> I won’t hold my breath.
Don’t hold your breath mastering a killfile either, dummy.
>> Excuse me. Would PLEASE post the charges under which he was
>> convicted? You have the access to all the information. It is
>> certainly something you know about to be challenging me.
> Of course, I know about it; that’s how I can state with confidence that
>the judgment of conviction doesn’t mention “steaming” people. I don’t do your
>research. It’s easy to find. Now do the work to back up you assertion.
I have already posted the IMT references to it. You are the one
out in the cold.
>> From the CD-ROM file I am more than willing to accept he was
>> convicted of running concentration camps under inhumane
>> conditions but they fail to mention gassing. In fact the details
>> of the inhumane conditions (of course all Soviet generated) again
>> beg the question of how so many survived with gassing. It is
>> clearly a miracle so many survived without it.
> No. They used his own memoranda among other items of evidence.
>None was “Soviet generated.”
The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes
that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you
claiming generated the details?
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42377 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: and of course Russians were canibals
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:42:54 GMT
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‘Even on the march to the camps, the civilian population was not
allowed to give the prisoners of war food. In many cases,
when
prisoners of war could no longer keep up on the marches
because of
hunger and exhaustion, they were shot before the eyes of the
horrified civilian population, and the corpses were left.’
(NCA,
081 PS, ‘Prisoners of War,’ Feb. 28, 1942.)
Since the occupiers were, in fact, intent on stripping the
land of
everything edible, the captives were herded onto open ground
fenced
with barbed wire, and there, without shelter or tools, left to
graze like cattle on grass, roots, and bark. Men died in
layers
huddling together for warmth. The living ate the dead, and
cannibalism became epidemic. (Lahousen Affidavit, Lahousen
Interrogation Records, Nov. 20, 1945.)
Goering, his corpulence covered with a great sable coat that
the
Italian foreign minister, Count Ciano, described as ‘something
between what automobile drivers wore in 1906 and what a
high-grade
prostitute wears to the opera,'(Ciano, 443) chucklingly told
the Italian
foreign minister that the Soviet prisoners, ‘after having
eaten
everything possible, including the soles of their boots, have
begun
to eat each other and, what is more serious, have eaten a
German
sentry.’ (Ciano, 465.)
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 42378 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another lovely story
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT
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Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed the
falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point of
view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch
having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly
true story of the same first use.
It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it.
That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the URL
so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site of
this alternate reality true truth.
=====
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure
proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived
in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps
for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a shot
in
the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to
the
Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that
wore on
the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however,
an SS
officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser
=====
Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from
Fritsch?
=====
noticed that one of his
companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was
instantly
knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that
was
used as a disinfectant.
=====
Instantly “knocked out.” One has to wonder just what it was that
this person “whiffed”. It is also of note that here it is used
as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant.
=====
To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering
the
half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser
had
several cans of the blue pellets,
=====
Note the blue kitty litter. How strange.
=====
which vaporize when exposed to
air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting
execution.
=====
Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs into
the room.
=====
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies
were
met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had locked
themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each
other’s
hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their
clothes
had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated
when
the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp.
59,
112, 134.)
=====
Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the
Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to
be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse
into gelatinous blobs.
Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is what
really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised?
But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it comes
>from seeing a person “knocked out” from one whiff. Then we note
that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to recover
consciousness before dying and go through the hair pulling and
finger biting routine.
But this is a true story that Nizkor swears to as being gospel.
Is there anyone out there who still denies that Nizkor is
supporting absolute nonsense? Lying through their collective
teeth that is?
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 42380 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:56:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, [email protected] (al willis) wrote:
>>I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million.
>>If this took place over 48 months, that’s 125,000 deaths a
>>month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis
>Ask Pat Buchanan.
>I think that if you will check a history book, Al, you will find that
>the Nazis were in power for a bit more than 4 years.
>Of course, if you are just some sort neo-Nazi revisionist then you
>already know the answer and are just trolling. We will assume you are
>just ignorant and not spiteful and full of hate, until you prove
>otherwise.
All of the commonly referenced Nizkor sources say the
“extermination” started in the fall of 1941 at the earliest.
If you disagree with four years, contact them.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 42387 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 02:52:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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That is mixing researched to some extent works with the off hand
posts of amateur holohuggers as though there were no difference.
Certianly an ego boost but of no merit.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 42401 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A WW I kind of war
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 01:18:07 GMT
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The facts and figures of the economic spoilation of Europe told
of
theft and destruction almost beyond imagining – the more so
because
each report warned that the scale of pillage and havoc had
been so
great that it was still not possible to estimate the final
totals.
Some of the figures were difficult to grasp and they certainly
made
little impact on many in court or in the Press. For instance,
it
needed a degree of financial knowledge and understanding of
each
country’s economy to absorb such figures as those for
financial
seizures over and above what was legally permitted for
occupation
costs; in Denmark, the illegal seizures had been 8,000 million
crowns, in Belgium 130,000 million Belgian francs. It helped
when
such figures were put into perspective: in France, the maximum
sum
which Germany could legally demand for the maintenance of her
army
of occupation was 74,000 million francs; yet the final French
payment had come to 745,000 million, ten times larger.
=====
Can anyone today imagine a legal requirement for an occupied
country to pay for the occupying army?
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 42405 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: exact number from SWC
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 02:26:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Now here we have the French speaking for the western nations
affected in this time frame.
=====
“The French also had a tale to tell of the horrors of forced
labour
which would only be surpassed in nastiness by that of the
Russians.
In occupied western Europe men and women were drafted into
designated industires. Many of them were forced to work,
contrary
to all international regulations, on military projects –
248,000
labourers were constructing the Atlantic Wall by March 1943.
Worse
than forced labour at home was deportation to work in Germany
–
1,293,000 people were taken from the West by April 1943. In
Germany, they worked on average eleven hours a day (twelve
hours in
one Krupp factory); for this they received the same daily wage
as
German workers. They were heavily taxed, they were fined for
minor
breaches of discipline, they might be deprived of ration cards
for
up to four weeks as a punishment.
=====
Some interesting points here. They were paid the going wages for
the work. It was war time and they worked 11-12 hours a day.
(My grandfather told of working those kinds of hours both when he
started work and during WW II.) There is no commnet upon the
taxes of the ordinary Germany citizen. And, since they had
ration cards, they apparently had the freedom to go out shopping.
An interesting picture.
=====
The worst fate of all was deportation to concentration camps.
Such
was the scale, such was the official secrecy on the
whereabouts of
those seized that the prosecution could still provide no exact
figures for those sent to the camps. It was guessed that 6,000
Luxembourgers, 5,200 Danes, 5,400 Norwegians, 12,000 Dutch,
37,000
Belgians had been sent. Of the 250,000 French deported, only
35,000
returned home; sometimes up to 25 per cent would die in the
brutal
transports on the way.
=====
Although it is unclear where they got the 25 percent figure, the
numbers themselves are interesting.
6,000 from Luxembourgh. SWC says that 1950 of them were Jews.
But where Luxembourgh guessed, SWC knows.
5,200 Danes of which SWC says 60 were Jews. As above, guessing.
12,000 Dutch, SWC is unclear is saying 100,000 from the
Netherlands.
37,000 Belgians, 28,900 SWC says were Jewish. But again,
guessing.
250,000 French, 77,328 SWC says were Jews.
But interestingly, there is no notice taken of any particularly
Jewish contingent in these groups by the people who were involved
at the time.
=====
<36> New York Herald Tribune, 25 January
=====
And of cours the unimpeachable source.
=====
Work Cited
Tusa, Ann & John. The Nuremberg Trial. Birmingham, Alabama:
The
Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc.,
1990
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:13 PDT 1996
Article: 42408 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ghettos?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:28:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p2d[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:30:57 AM CDT 1996
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>[snip of irrelevant portion of SWC answer #33 plus Giwer’s introduction]
>> well. In the summer and
>fall of 1941, refugees in Japan were
>>transferred to Shanghai but no
>> measures were taken against them until early 1943, when they
>>were forced to move into the
>> Hongkew Ghetto. While conditions were hardly satisfactory,
>>they were far superior to those
>> in the ghettos under German control.
>>
>>=====
>>
>> Now here was have a policy of mass extermination on one hand and
>>the economic burden of maintaining these ghettos on the other.
> In the ghettos in occupied Russia, at least, the ghettos contained
>laborers. In fact, one document mentions how they could not afford to
>remove all the Jews from some areas because they made up such a large
>proportion of the skilled craftsmen. If they needed the labor from the
>ghettos it would not have been an economic burden.
Strangely Nizkor carries an unassailbly true file claiming
exactly the opposite, that they were all killed, the Wehrmacht
would import more and they would be killed again.
But there are so many true truths here it is difficult to keep
them straight.
>> Does anyone else get the feeling there is something inconsistent
>>about this?
> Yes, I do. But then, I also get a feeling of inconsistency when I
>hear that they give medical care to people on death row in this country.
Nazi doctors who could perform the miracle of infecting people
with cancer would do that?
> Say, do you suppose that California gas chamber is also a hoax?
If they report tearing out hair and biting off fingers they
certainly are.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:14 PDT 1996
Article: 42409 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How missing Jews do we have to account for?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:43:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pfpug$b[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 1:45:39 AM CDT 1996
[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> It appears we only need to come up with some 1.5 million or so
>>Jews or at least an explanation of where they went to wrap up
>>most of this Soviet created gassing and steaming stories.
> No. We have just had a week-long discussion spread over two or three
> threads which clearly established that:
> 1. The two numbers which generated the 1.5 million or so difference
> were
> a. from estimates
> b. from different sources
> c. measured at different times
> d. represent different geographical boundaries
> 2. We do not know how these two numbers were estimated, there is
> potenial that error was introduced in either or both of them.
> So your premise of “it appears we only need to come up iwth some 1.5
> million or so Jews” is not only flawed, but as you did not address the
> conversation you yourself were active in, is dishonest. Flagrantly
> dishonest.
>> Is that about the right number or would someone like to propose
>>another number? This is not a total number but rather the gassing
>>and steaming only number. Anyone who wishes can throw
>>electrocution, shooting and vacuum chambers into the mix if they
>>want.
> This is a troll.
No. It is a question. How many have to be accounted for to
dismess the gassing explanation.
Do you have a number? A range of numbers?
How many?
There has to be such a number some place. I just want to
establish a fixed target. You folks must have a number some
place.
I am looking for the total number of gassing and steaming and
shooting and electrocuted and vacuum chambered and all other
forms of extermination number. It has to be out there some
place. What is it?
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:15 PDT 1996
Article: 42415 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:36:25 GMT
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[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
>Ken McVay OBC ([email protected]) writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
>(snip – I challenged the meathead liberals here to name just one pro-White
>work of literature that approached _Soul on Ice_ as a hate-filled screed)
>> Almost anything that was printed by the Arizona Patriots,
>> beginning with Oliphant’s “To Alter or Abolish the
>> Government.”
>>
>> From there, you may wish to move to William Potter Gale, and
>> the writings of the “Committee of the States.”
>>
>> That’s two.
>>
>> When you’ve done that, get back to us, Mr. Griswold, and we’ll
>> provide you with more.
>Geez, Ken, never heard of either of those particular tracts. Funny, you
>seem VERY well read on “Natsee” literature. How long did it take you to
>find either of them? Would you suggest that EITHER of them is as popular
>as _Soul on Ice_? _SOI_ is available in any largish library. Where would
>one find either of the tracts you mention? And how unanimously do they
>represent the feelings of Whites? While you’re at it, perhaps you can
>tell us when the NAACP made a formal refutation of _Soul on Ice_?
>BTW, are either of those books banned in Canada? If so, how’d you get
>your shithooks on them?
Even more curious is why something that does what they claim
would have such titles.
It appears to be on the same level of stupidity as Morris Dees.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:16 PDT 1996
Article: 42416 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:03:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected]@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>In <31bb76ad.72[email protected]>, [email protected] (!Rack Jite) writes:
>>I dont think I ever saw people so enthralled with squealing.
>>The pride in it passes me by…
>You take pride in the fact that your purported “friends” verified who you were?!?
>Since no one else is “enthralled with squealing”, you surely must be pointing at
>yourself.
>To be expected, of course – from someone who would try to feed phony information to
>Ann Onstad and pump her for information.
I had almost forgotten about Annie. Nice kid. Didn’t deserve
the Dahlman treatment.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 10 06:28:17 PDT 1996
Article: 42418 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:35:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4o4moc$10[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4peb[email protected]> <4pf1[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Whitey) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Les Griswold
>>>>>>(snip – about Eldridge Cleaver’s _Soul on Ice_, wherein he expounds about
>>>>>>the virtues of raping White women, as a means of “getting back at” the
>>>>>>White man)
>>>>>
>>>>> So what? You can read considerably more white supremacist pamphlets which
>>>>> expound upon the virtues of murdering nonwhites, Catholics, homosexuals and
>>>>> Jews.
>>>>
>>>>Really? Name one.
>>>>
>>>>Les
>>> _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald.
>> Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction.
>> Why not name one next time around?
>A work of fiction which is used by thousands of individuals and
>hundreds of white supremacists or religious groups as a blueprint for
>what they see as an inevitable assault on the government and their
>subsequent rise in power over non-whites. You discount it, but your
>compatriots contradict your feigned disdain for it.
Pure bullshit. Name the groups that use it. Please be specific
in your response.
No names? That makes you as bright as Morris Dees.
>Byte me.
What separates the human being from the animals is not the
opposable thumb but the inability to lick one’s genitals. You
appear to have mastered that problem.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42502 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:27:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>> >
>> >> “French Team Plunges Into Whirlpool”
>> >> N.Y. Times, June 6, 1996
>> >
>> >As one who appreciates sick humor, however unintentional, as much (or
>> >more) than the next guy, I want to thank you from sharing this exceptional
>> >inanity with us. (I am, of course, making the dangerous assumption that
>> >you didn’t forge the whole thing.)
>>
>> Do you see the quote marks? Do you notice the source and the
>> date?
>Indeed. One can find the article at:
>http://www.cnn.com/SPORTS/OLYMPICS/9606/06/holocaust.swimmer.wir/index.html
>And see just how faithful your citation is.
>I especially like your “quote” that:
>”The article continues to say, ‘About 75,000 Jews, including 12,000
>children, were deported from France to Nazi death camps duringWorld War
>II. Only about 2,500 survived.'”
>When in fact it said: “About 75,000 Jews, including 12,000 children, were
>deported from France to Nazi death camps during World War II. Only about
>2,500 returned.”
>Your misrepresentation of substituting “survived” for “returned” is
>telling in that you then use it to launch off into another one of your
>little tirades against the Holocaust, ending in: “Thus, going by the
>75,000 account, every
>single Jew that lived in France was killed – and then some.”
The Nizkor approved file talks only about France reporting people
being sent work camps with no mention of children or religion.
Why do you think that is?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:02 PDT 1996
Article: 42503 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:32:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>> On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, [email protected] (al willis)
>wrote:
>>>
>>> >I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million.
>>> >If this took place over 48 months, that’s 125,000 deaths a
>>> >month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis
>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
rate.
>The 6,000,000 figure applies to Jews. There were an additional
>6,000,000 non-Jews killed for ethnic reasons.
Actually the number includes all of those from a
counterproductive approach to dealing the partisans and other
clearly political and military causes.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:03 PDT 1996
Article: 42507 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:49:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.13627[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 06:56:40 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Jun 1996 00:39:45 GMT, [email protected] (al willis) wrote:
>>
>>>>I am curious how anyone came up with the figure of 6 million.
>>>>If this took place over 48 months, that’s 125,000 deaths a
>>>>month. Logistically, how is this possible? Al Willis
>>
>>>Ask Pat Buchanan.
>>
>>>I think that if you will check a history book, Al, you will find that
>>>the Nazis were in power for a bit more than 4 years.
>>
>>>Of course, if you are just some sort neo-Nazi revisionist then you
>>>already know the answer and are just trolling. We will assume you are
>>>just ignorant and not spiteful and full of hate, until you prove
>>>otherwise.
>>
>> All of the commonly referenced Nizkor sources say the
>>”extermination” started in the fall of 1941 at the earliest.
>>
>> If you disagree with four years, contact them.
>Semantics Matt. Are you claiming that your favorite Goosesteppers
>killed no Jews until 1941?
>Watch his sidestep this one folks.
Sidestep what? Your “favorite goosestepper” line? That would
take an Arkansas two-step at least.
But if you disagree with Nizkor, contact them and keep your
holohugger name calling to a minimum.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42509 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:05:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all
equally true.
>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of
>crap, questioning the Holocaust. They’d be more honest if they simply
>admitted it and said they’re only sorry the job wasn’t finished. But
>such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical
>liars by nature..
What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in
question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration
and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer
to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the
records recording the cause of death.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:05 PDT 1996
Article: 42510 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How missing Jews do we have to account for?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:28:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pfpug$bn3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <9JUN199619[email protected]> <4pggaj$hd[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>> No. It is a question. How many have to be accounted for to
>>dismess the gassing explanation.
> There is a tremendous amount of evidence for gassing over and above any
> demographic accounting for the number of dead. Gassing can’t be
> dismissed without discounting all of this other evidence.
How many?
>> Do you have a number? A range of numbers?
>>
>> How many?
>>
>> There has to be such a number some place. I just want to
>>establish a fixed target. You folks must have a number some
>>place.
>>
>> I am looking for the total number of gassing and steaming and
>>shooting and electrocuted and vacuum chambered and all other
>>forms of extermination number. It has to be out there some
>>place. What is it?
> Historians and demographers estimate 11 to 12 million civilians died
> due to the Holocaust.
The SWC refers to the holocaust as only the Jewish part. I will
still with that for the moment.
>What number, exactly, are you looking for?
As I have said, the number that are accounted for only the number
of Jews who died by the various forms of direct and immediate
execution even if after transportation to the place of execution.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42514 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:47:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Erik Marksberry
> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>the Nazi party.
Actually a quite limited bit of truth.
The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put
together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in
the Reichstag.
Between then and March international Jewish organizations
organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the
middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week
later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany
organized by the Nazis.
The permanent international boycott continued and at that point
the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were
instituted.
You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in
March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies.
=====
Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 01:37:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42523 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:16:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>
>> While this is true, thought there were many people who did not give
>>Ehrlich606 a chance to see what he was saying. I
>
>Maybe this is true. I did spend some time in Dejanews, trying to piece together
>his larger picture (his own postings being more or less incidental, like much
>on this newsgroup.)
>
>One question I had is how he treats Holocaust scholarship as a monolithic and
>perfectly synchronized voting bloc, when, reading your posts for example, it
>clearly isn’t.
That is one ot the problems with it, it is not monolithic. For
example, if one points out there are records of all the people
and cause of death, the true story of gassed being unrecorded is
raised. When you point out there is no way to tell the
“unrecored” from any ot the other 32 million that disappeared
without a trace the true story that they were all registered is
raised.
Far from monolithic there is a true story to answer all problems.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:51 PDT 1996
Article: 42532 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Nose-honker still at large
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:07:35 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Alec Grynspan
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> It is not an international crime and they are originating in
>> Canada from a person with root access to idirect which also hosts
>> (and rips off by their prices) almanac ne Nizkor.
>It is legally very actionable if you have proof. You can choose the
>venue that is most profitable, as well. Civil actions can easily cross
>boundaries.
Civil of course but for what damages? Criminal? (as our resident
Pennsylvania lawyer implied.) If by some miracle something that
bares ranks as a misdemeanor were subject to mutual prosecution
with Canada. I doubt Canada has enough surplus prosecutors to
take an interest in the matter.
I do know that ten years ago Fairfac County would not pursue a
case of $10,000 in bad checks to NYC when it was his signature
and was not hiding.
>As for root access, I can send a message from “[email protected]” without
>even turning off this newsreader or switching providers – and I can
>definitely state that I don’t have root access to this provider.
And in the process you would have studied the server aliases and
would have created a new server alias that was on the same theme
as the other names. (Like the way the Brits name ships of the
same class. I think I still have the original fingers if you
would like them, also the converted email addrs.) And then you
would manage to insert that into the Received: line, not the
From: line, in some clever manner.
And then you would include in the body of your message
information that was discussed on the phone between the CEOs of
the two ISPs involved only a few hours earlier and personally
conveyed to me in which it was agreed by idirect that the person
had root access. I am certain you would have a way to get them
to call and brief you on the fonecon also.
Alec, you are much more talented that I ever imagined. Would you
like to tell me how you would do all of this? You can make it
email if you don’t want everyone to know.
Since the responsiveness of idirect was so poor (zero) to my
original complaints and only after I used a 2×4 did I get any
response at all, it might be worthwhile to drop the mailing list
in some appropriate newsgroups. They have certainly be obnoxious
enough.
>Further, while I am not thrilled by some of the actions of the owner of
>idirect, I regret to say that his prices are very competitive for the
>Canadian market. Besides the exchange rate, we also have much higher
>costs for communication lines – plus a tax burden that is higher as
>well.
The question is rather to websites. Compare their prices to
webcom or combase for example with full FTP access and local full
access to locally running utilities like counters. If you have
considered idirect, you will thank me.
In fact there is a local ISP that throws in five megs of website
for the same $20 a month unlimited.
I am looking towards webcom at the moment just for its ability to
index text files and if you have every seen mine you know how
much that is needed.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:52 PDT 1996
Article: 42540 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I am asking for a number, stupid
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:30:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:32:56 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> If you want them all to be estimates, your gassings fall within
>> estimation error. You really do not have enough slack to call it
>> anything else.
> This is why your arguments lack coherence. You have not the
>slightest idea of how to analyse data. The initial question is not “gassing” or “not
>gassing.” The initial question is what happened to the Jewish communities in
>Europe in the period 1939-1945. The simple answer is that, whatever, the
>”estimations” of the numbers involved is that the people and the cultures
>vanished. Once that question is established, the question of technique becomes
>the operable question. While numbers can be debated about the first issue, it is
>entirely irrelevant as to the second unless it is used to explain the accounts of
>what happened. You attempt to do quite the reverse. It is, to say the elast, quite
>unconvincing.
Cute. If you do not have a number for those immediately executed
solely because they were Jews simply say so. Just stop the game
playing.
What is the number?
>> You have by now read the report of the French that hardly more
>> than 10% of their deportees to work camps came back. We do not
>> have reports of any huge number of French being gassed. So
>> clearly we have an extraordinarily high attrition rate due to
>> other causes.
> Of a much smaller group of a different demographic make-up in
>different conditions. Why do you insist on consistently comparing apples and
>oranges and pretending it means something other than pure speculation?
The French of course reported no particular demographic makeup
either by religion or by age. I can not change that.
>> But you folks love your gassing so much that you can not see the
>> preponderance of the evidence rather than the Soviet provided
>> testimony.
> You are not only wrong in your characterization of the evidence but of
>the position of every historian who has studied the subject. What I care about is
>the murder of the Jews of Europe and erasure of Yiddish culture.
There is no particular merit to Yiddish culture. Why would you
care?
The evidence
>points strongly to the gassings as a final industrialization of that process.
So what is the number?
Nobody
>but you and a few others erecting straw-men has ever claimed that gassing was
>the predominent tool of those murders. You consistently use what I consider to
>be a pretense as an excuse to attack the historical reality of the genocide.
What is the number?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:52 PDT 1996
Article: 42541 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:34:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
>> Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
>> declared war on Germany. There you have the way it is always
>> presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
>> But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
>> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
>> Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
>> declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation
>> for this? If England’s reason for declaring war upon Germany was
>> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
> Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades
> but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I
> know why, but I’ll keep this one in my bilological hard drive.
You might as well say it. Towards the end of your life the
evidence of the diplomatic doublecross in the form of an
agreement between England and Russia and perhaps France will
likely be released. And then you can say you said it in 1996,
i.e. before the grandkids were born.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:53 PDT 1996
Article: 42545 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gang of Six or Seven
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:55:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31bc35fc.63[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Before these wrong kind of posts stop being posted it would be of
interest to collect the responses of the Gang of Six (or Seven)
for future reference.
After all, some day they may achieve the publicity and fame they
crave. At that point there will be press interviews, talk shows,
all the rest.
And then there will be opportunities for confrontation.
For example,
“Mr. McVay, when the statement was made that crematoria do not
have the capacity to accomodate the number of bodies produced,
did you not say, and I quote, ‘The only problem with the
cremation rate is that your father did not know how to use a
condom’?”
A fertile mind can envision many such opportunities using the
posts fo the entire Gang.
Do not forget that these folks are expecting the praise of their
fellow holohuggers for their activities. Nothing will shoot down
public praise faster than making them unsuitable for public use.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:54 PDT 1996
Article: 42551 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:25:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:28:06 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
> The building is NOT a hexagon. ONLY the Hall of
> Rememberance is.
>I responded:
> So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
> proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
> victims. I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not
> count for anything.
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) avoids responding to my comments,
>preferring to merely reiterate his position:
> And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and
> it purpose. While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six
> remind you of? Which six are you remembering? Or does it have
> no meaning at all?
>In other words, the exhibits and information count for nothing, but
>the number of walls in one particular room counts for everything!
Of course. It is the same with the SWC which unequivocally says
that the term holocaust refers only to the Jews. It is you folks
here who continue to deny that.
>Apparently, whenever Mr. Giwer takes his children to a museum they
>spend their time counting the walls in each exhibit area, instead of
>looking at the exhibits and reading the information, because there is
>so much more information packed into the number of walls,
>symbolically speaking.
The United States [Jews only} Holocaust Memorial Museum is what
is in question here. If you have a problem with the term
holocaust refering to Jews only take it up with the SWC. They
say that is what it means.
When I used to take my son to the Aerospace museum it was in fact
about Aerospace. We we to go the USHMM it would be about what
happened to Jews. It is there private holocaust.
And again, if you don’t like it, take it up with the SWC.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:55 PDT 1996
Article: 42556 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:09:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bc3b08.5997[email protected]> <4phvsj$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>Before you embarass yourself here, why don’t you read up on the history
>>of the Holocaust. It began in early 1942. Before that time Jews were
>>treated quite horribly.. deported, forced into ghettos, dying of
>>disease and starvation, etc… but the actual death camps did not come
>>into being until ’42.
>An interesting issue: When, indeed, did it all begin? Did it
>begin in 1922, when a young Hitler spoke of hanging Jews from
>the lamp-posts of Munich?
Golly gee whiz. A man that splept in the barracks every night
while awaiting the time to gain German citizenship speaks out
against EXACTLY what were the worldwide Jewish organiztions that
later organized an economic boycott of Germany in barely four
months.
But how many were hung?
What actions NOT RHETORIC were taken against Jews before that
international boycott?
Of course, none.
>Did it begin with Kristallnacht?
The above is where it started, in response to the international
boycott.
>Did
>it begin when “being Jewish” was officially described as
>sufficient rationale for being mentally ill, and thus eligible
>for “euthanasia?”
If you have a URL for this, fine. Otherwise, please stop making
us such nonsense. Someone might be dumb enough to believe you.
>Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?
How many?
What is the number?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:56 PDT 1996
Article: 42560 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:23:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.13[email protected]> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
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“D. Braun”
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>
>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>> >As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>> >”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>>
>> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>died of natural causes? What?
Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
The documentation of what you claim was all generated by the
Soviets who, for example, claimed that cancer was an infectuous
disease, and that the Nazis were responsible for the murders of
Katyn Woods.
As for the gassing there is only contradictory testimony
regarding gassing and ZERO physical evidence. Gassing or no,
Zyklon B would have been shipped to the camps. The holohuggers
hold that the “killing” amount was so low it would not have shown
up on the records.
There are no documented gas chambers. Descriptions of them from
“witenesses” are never good enough to match the currently claimed
gas chambers.
The “architecutural plan” is hardly more than an artist’s
conception and better matches a bomb shelter as there is NO
literature as to what would match a gas chamber.
Other than that, there is even less substance to what remains.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:56 PDT 1996
Article: 42562 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Al Gentile I
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:42:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 527
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:44:40 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
===============================================================================
Date: 09-13-93 Time: 11:37a Number: 341
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 177
To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: No
Subject: JEWS AND GAS 2/2 250: FN-FSPEECH
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AGºYet NOT ONCE produce one shred of evidence about gas chambers
AGºbeing situated in Dachau which was just outside of Munich “in
AGºGermany” and was considered the third worse extermination
camp.
MK>Uh, Al? Dachau was a concentration camp, not an extermination
camp.
And out of what book did you get that crap from? The “official”
records recorded the following. Auschwitz was the #1
extermination
camp followed by Dachau (#2) and Buchenwald (#3) Or do you think
that
the Germans where going to transport these prisoners a distance
of a
thousand miles just to execute them when it could be done just as
easily in their own camps? From 1943 to 1945 the allied bombers
made a
shambles of German railroads and major highways. EVERY vehicle
and
train was desperately needed to tranport Food and military
equipment
to their soldiers fighting on three major fronts. And I’m not
including the essentials needed by the civilian population. And
YOU
think that the German military were going to ship prisoners all
this
distance just to be killed in some other camp while desperately
needed
military supplies remain on the loading areas? You’re not
stupid,
you’re totally ignorant”.
AGºIt would stand to reason that if the SS had gas chambers at
Auschwitz
AGºThe worse of all camps, wouldn’t they also have had at Dachau?
AGºThe reason why the author never mention this about Dachau was
AGºbecause it was in allied occupied land and WE could prove that
AGºthey Never existed in this camp. So he reached out into the
AGºunknown with all this crap. because he knew that in civilized
AGºsociety there are moronic idiots such as Kennedy who will
AGºbelieve anything.
AGºMatt, the most asinine statement kennedy had posted was were
he
AGºquoted a section of Auschwitz’s SS Commandant Rudolph Hoess
Memoirs.
MK>Uh, Al? I didn’t quote anything from “Death Dealer”, the
title of the
MK>book you are referring to. Have you read it? I have.
AGºWhen I spotted that little gem, I went into hysterical
laughter.
AGºHoess, surrender to American forces in early 1946. He was
AGºimmediately arrested and imprisoned and wasn’t released until
AGºAfter the Nuremberg trial where he was exonerated of the
charges
AGºof gassing camp prisoners. In late 1946 he returned to his
AGºhometown which was then in Russian occupied land. Was
captured
AGºand tried by a Russian People’s court, convicted of mass
AGºexecution of Russian civilians, and in 1947 was publicly
hanged at
AGºAuschwitz. Now YOU tell me. when was he able to write his
memoirs?
MK>While he was in prison, Al. You know, the one the Americans
kept him
MK>in.
He was NEVER in prison. That is one of the gems I kept from you.
When
he surrendered to the Americans he was placed under “house
Surveillance” Because he WASN”T to be tried for any crime. He
appeared
as the prosecutor’s witness against his superior officers.
After his
testimony was given he was arrested under orders of the Russian
Prosecutor, General R.A. Rudenko and charged with gassing
Russian
civilians. His trail lasted TWO days and he was found Innocent
because General Rudenko failed to produce any official
documentation
that these gas chambers existed other then signed statements from
a
group of Russian officiers.
He NEVER wrote anything. And even if he did, who would publish
it? The
German people didn’t want to be reminded of what happen at these
camps. and it wasn’t until 1949 that the book publishing business
reopened, and he was executed in early 1947. The ONLY German who
became the “first” Nazi to publish his memoirs was Albert Speer,
German Reichs Armaments Minister. And his book was published in
“England” in 1966 after being released from prison. from a Twenty
years sentence. So if you intend to inject these names, At least
know
what the hell you’re talking about before making a damn fool of
yourself. BTW I “STILL” retain all my original notes I took
during
this period so if you intend on mentioning these names make sure
you
get all the facts before posting anything about them.
MK>I’m going to check that book out from the library again and
this time I
MK>will be MORE than happy to quote some passages from it for
you. Unless,
MK>of course, you’d like to drive over to your little library and
read it
MK>yourself. Your question about “when was he able to write his
memoirs?”
MK>is your undoing. It shows that you know little about Rudolf
H”ss.
I responded to this in the above. But don’t let that stop you.
You go
right ahead and check in the library. And produce the section
where he
was “Originally” arrested and how he wrote his memiors (according
to
you) while in prison. And when you find this book post the year
it
was written I think you’ll find that information on back of the
front
cover. and also the year it was published and by what “book
publishing
company”.
(Continued in the next message)
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-17-93 Time: 10:03a Number: 356
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 180
To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: No
Subject: Your “Reputation” 3/3 250: FN-FSPEECH
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
MK>you went through thousands of documents. How could you go
through
MK>documents which didn’t exist, according to you? You’ve stated
time and
MK>time again that all documentation concerning the camps was
destroyed.
MK>Yet here you are, stating that you and an unstated number of
other
MK>soldiers went through THOUSANDS of documents. What documents?
Or are
MK>you contradicting yourself again? You choose. But choose
carefully.
Back to your old crap of distorting what I had posted. I had
stated
“Categorically” that we had found ALL records pertaining to the
names
of inmates in these camps had been destroyed. I NEVER stated
that
other official records NOT related to prisoners had been
destroyed.
YOU injected that part into your message. In fact that’s ALL
you’ve
been doing, trying to distort my original messages. And the
“thousands” of documents we went through were those records we
needed
to prove who were the HIGH ranking SS officers responsible for
issuing
orders that caused the death of all these prisoners. Our task
was in
assisting the Nuremberg Court by accumulating documentation
needed in
trying these officials for war crimes. And for your information
the
court NEVER took up the issue of how many prisoners met their
death
but ONLY who was “responsible”.
MK>Yep. You accept EVERYTHING (your own word, Al) that “Moses”
said, yet
MK>now you are calling him a Neo-Nazi. If this is the case,
shouldn’t you
MK>make a retraction, stating that you were wrong and that you do
NOT
MK>accept as the truth what “Moses” posted? But if you do, then
you HAVE
MK>to accept as the truth what I’ve said about the Holocaust.
Damn. What
MK>a dilemma! But I’m sure you’ll either find a way to weasel
out of it,
MK>or you’ll just denounce me again with some more of your rather
boring
MK>obscenities.
That’s right he is a Neo-Nazi because he wasn’t as much concern
in
discrediting the claims of the gas chambers as he was in trying
to
prove that If the Jews lied about this issue then they also lied
about
the Jews being singled out. And if you failed to recognize that,
then
I suggest you re-read his message. especially that section about
“Anne
Frank” what the hell do you think he was doing with that, other
then
trying to discredit the Jewish claims about this teenager. When
you
come out with all this unsubstantiated crap about gas chambers,
you’re
giving him the fuel he needed. Because he could produce enough
evidence to prove that gas chambers NEVER existed. And if he can
do
that, (and he did) then he’s proving that it was a lie. And all
you’re doing is helping him Prove that lie by insisting that
these gas
chambers existed. If Neo-Nazi’s can prove that Gas chambers and
Anne
Frank story are lies, they can now question the holocaust. Not
that
it never existed, they know better then that, but rather that the
Jews
are lying when they claim that it was ONLY them who had been
marked
for extermination.
MK>Face it, Al. You’ve tripped yourself up yet again. And this
time, I
MK>have the ASCII which shows it. I think the next thing you’ll
get from
MK>me is a repost of one of your April messages. Yes. That
should be
MK>rather embarrassing for you.
You mean the same way you did when you challenged my statement
that
the records from these camps had been destroyed, then later
posted the
message that the SS destroyed these records. Or the Memoirs that
Auschwitz Commandant Hoess wrote that you READ. Yet DON’T exist,
because he NEVER wrote them. Or eye witness reports that were
published 20 odd years After the war. Or witnesses the author
claimed
were found in warsaw. When history has proven that Hitler had
EVERY
single Jew, Man, woman, and child driven OUT of warsaw. Is this
what
you call tripping me up? The only reason I even responded to you
was
because I realized that in your stupidity you were assisting
Neo-Nazi’s undermine the holocaust. And the reason I responded
in the
vile manner that I did was because that’s all your brain can
understand.
I ignored you for over two months because It’s a waste of time
trying
to converse with a moronic idiot. But if you noticed I have NOT
responded in the same way towards Jimmy Pearson, and that’s
because
unlike you he has a brain in his head, I NEVER under estimated
his
intelligence only his discretion in the manner in which he
responded.
The difference between the two of you is that Pearson didn’t act
out
of viciousness. He was trying to be humorous and was more concern
laughing with me then AT me. Jimmy Pearson doesn’t have to prove
anything to anybody, Skip over his F… words and you’ll find the
major portion of his messages quite interesting and intelligent.
He
doesn’t rely on distortions, Lies, and exaggerations like you do.
And
I respect him for that. In contrast I hold you in contempt.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-13-93 Time: 02:36p Number: 557
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 335
To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: No
Subject: On Mr. Gentile… 2/2 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AGºMK>program several months ago. However, I did experience
them. Are you
AGºMK>going to question the validity of my experiences?
AGºQuestion it??? *I* challenge it. I stated constantly that we
AGºinterviewed eye witnesses because ALL the records at these
camps
AGºhad been destroyed. And YOU called me a liar. Yet in your
AGºprevious message you had posted. You quoted a section of that
AGºbullshit historical book you had read that the SS had
destroyed
AGºALL records prior to allied forces over running these camps.
Now
AGºwhose the fucking ass sucking pussy licking liar? You low
life
AGºscum bag. you can’t even get you own story straight, let alone
AGºchallenge mine.
MK>And you stated that those witnesses were too mentally
shattered to give
MK>you coherent answers. Or do you deny ever saying this?
Answer
MK>carefully, because I DO have a set of your messages from back
in April
MK>archived. I’ll be more than happy to drag them out.
You’re still back to that bullshit again aren’t you? I NEVER
said
they were mentally “SHATTERED” I said their testimony was
unreliable.
They had been tortured, beaten, and starved. and if you go to any
library and look up a book that contains only photographs of
these
inmates you can still see the fear in their eyes. Even when we
liberated the camps. they knew we were friends but they still
“cringed” with terror at the sight of our uniforms. If you took
one
of these inmates into a private interrogation room and closed the
door
they would sit in the chair shaking with fear staring at the
closed
door. We didn’t have the same opportunity of obtaining from them
a
reliable account of what happen at these camps as did so many
others
who interviewed them years after they had been released. Our
time was
limited. And we dealt with what we had in the best way we could.
And
the question of gas chambers never came up until some smart ass
American Army Major by the name of Rosenbaum came into our office
all
excited over what some prisoner had reported to him about inmates
being gassed. He couldn’t produce this alleged witness. which
left us
with no other alternative but to fly to Munich and make a
personal
examination of each and every building at Dachau. We found
crematories, Tanks still filled with a gasoline oil mixture, but
we
found no gas or ANY equipment for the storage of gas or pumps
that
could be used in use of gasing prisoners. And that’s where the
“rumor” of gas chambers first started. I NEVER mentioned
Auschwitz
because I have no “personal knowledge” about that camp. Nor did
anyone
else outside of the Russians themselves. And I can’t believe
that if
these gas chambers did in fact exist that the Russians would have
remain silent. Why they would of had a field day with that
little bit
of information. One of the Major problems at the Nuremberg
trials was
the Russian Prosecutor General R.A.Rudenko who kept insisting
that
“ALL” these German war criminals be tried for acts they committed
against Russian civilians. And you can bet your ass if he could
have
produced ONE shred of evidence that Gas chambers existed at
Auschwitz
he would of had a field day with that.
MK>You stated that when your company entered one of the camps,
you found an
MK>administration building which had row upon row of books
containing
MK>names. Your company moved out of the camp to continue
fighting. When
MK>you returned to the camp a week or so later, those books were
missing
MK>and were never seen again. You later presumed them to have
been
MK>destroyed. Destroyed by whom, Al? The Allied authorities?
The
MK>prisoners themselves? Who did it, Al? Answer carefully. I
may have
MK>THAT message archived, too. And if I don’t, maybe Pat Adams
does. I’ll
MK>ask him…
Well why don’t you have that message archived and prove the liar
that
you are. I NEVER said we found rows of “Books” containing names.
I
had said we found many “CABINETS” in the Commandants office which
contained thousands of individual files of inmates. And two days
later
when we came back to help out with the clean up we had discovered
that
these files had been destroyed. And that was reported to me by my
sergeant who had been ordered to stand watch over the camp until
the
rear echelon officials brought in the medical and service people.
He
personally took me to a 50 gallon drum and showed me ashes of
what
remained of the files we had originally found when we entered the
camp. And that’s why I have always said the were destroyed
instead of
“they turned up missing”.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-13-93 Time: 04:55p Number: 560
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 337
To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: No
Subject: On Mr. Gentile… (#2 2/2 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AGºfucking slime ball.
MK>I don’t play games with the Holocaust, Al. I don’t lie about
it. I
MK>don’t disseminate half-truths about it. I don’t spread
misconceptions
MK>about it. I’m serious as a heart attack about it. But I
don’t expect
MK>you to believe me. You’re so caught up in trying to hate me
that if I
MK>told you that your name was Al Gentile you’d go nuts trying to
prove me
MK>wrong.
You don’t play games with the Holocaust? What the hell you think
you
have been doing. You contradict, yourself you mention names of
SS
personnel which you know NOTHING about. You speak of Memoirs
which
have NEVER existed. You twist and distort my original messages.
You
make allegations based upon events that happen in a restricted
zone,
and then can’t produce one shred of evidence other then the so
called
historical books of authors who investigated and wrote the
stories
some twenty odd years after the war ended. And you speak of eye
witness who in all probability left Europe many years before
these
alleged historians ever came to Europe. How do you trace
witnesses
down whose names that originally stored in these camps where
totally
destroyed. How do you find a witness if you have no name or
address
to guide you. What do you do? walk up to every man women and
child
and ask them, “are you a former inmate of Auschwitz” come on big
mouth. tell me how do they find these witnesses twenty years
after the
war ended?
MK>And drop the obscenity schtick. It doesn’t impress me, and it
does your
MK>reputation more harm than it does mine.
For those who dislike me in this conference *I* couldn’t care
less
what they think. To those whom I respect, and understand that
the use
of vulgarity wasn’t started by me, are the only ones I care
about.
When you began flaming me with those F….ing this and F…ing
that
You wasn’t too worried about your reputation was you? So why
should I
be worried about giving you a taste of your own medicine? Where
we
differ is you think the F… word is acceptable. and *I* don’t.
AS
far as I’m concern any vulgar language is unacceptable. And I’ll
gladly discontinue the use of it when others stop using these
words
and stop this flaming and insulting other members.
MK>I expected as much. You demand proof from others, but when
someone asks
MK>you to back up your statements you refuse. Fine. Did I
mention your
MK>reputation? With that kind of attitude, you don’t have a
reputation.
You want proof of what our committee accumplished? Well how
about the
following.
Alfred Rosenberg Death
Hans Frank Death
Wilhelm Frick Death
Julius Streicher Death
Walter Funk Life Imprisonment
Eric Raeder Life Imprisonment
Baldur Von Schrirach Twenty years
Albert Speer Tewnty Years
Constantin Von Neurath Fifteen Years.
Karl Doenitz Ten Years
The others who were tried were investigated by a different group
and
while the worked independent of our committee, we did share
information that was important to cases that belonged to each
individual group.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:57 PDT 1996
Article: 42563 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Al Gentile II
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:43:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 603
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:46:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
===============================================================================
Date: 08-14-93 Time: 01:06p Number: 4119
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 3573
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AG> posts or you weren’t around when they appeared. When I
AG> came into this conference I introduced an isuue on the
AG> Holocaust. My message contained only those events that I
AG> had personally experience and observed. In spite of this I
AG> recieved two answers that were loaded with F… you F….
AG> lying F…F…F… I don’t like or use that word and *I*
AG> don’t approve of its use. And I re-laid that message to
AG> these two characters. Their response? “double the amount
AG> of F…words”.
MG> Since others were not here how about posting some
messages
MG>with the same original content and see if we can get a brawl
MG>going. Nothing is better for an adrenalin rush than jackasses
on
MG>the boards.
Matt, I’m sure you have read my previous posts on this subject,
but I will give you a digested detail of these messages.
During WWII while serving with the 84th Infantry division, my
Company liberated two concentration camps. One in Krefeld, and
the other outside of Hanover. And I “personally” witnessed the
aftermath of the Holocaust. At wars end I was one of a few
allied service men who were reassigned to England, to
investigate and present our findings to the War Crime Court at
Nuremberg. What we discovered were the records of all the
inmates that were exterminated and those still in the camp had
been destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both
former prisoners and SS guards. and we were able to present a
clear picture of the horrors that the SS had inflicted on these
prisoners.
We also visited these camps and uncovered that three foot thick
concrete buildings had been constructed with sprinkling system in
the inside of the building, Along side of these building there
were large tanks containing a mixture of Gas and oil. These
sites were used as “Crematories” for the thousands of inmates
who were dying daily. (the twenty individual constructed
crematories were unable to handle the amount of prisoners who
were dying daily.) At NO camp did we find any building that was
being used in “gassing” the inmates. And even after all the
investigations that has been conducted since the war ended NO
ONE has been able to present ANY evidence that these gas
chambers existed.
Through our efforts, a few Commandants and SS guards were tried,
convicted and executed, for the crimes they had committed at
these camps. The only area we were unable to examine were those
camps which were situated in Russian held territory. They
allowed NO allies into this area. And even to this day we still
have NO information on how many camps were in the area, the
amount of prisoners, or the total amount of those who died in
these camps. Basically what I was trying to convey over was
that fact that the holocaust did in fact “EXIST” and my only
complaint was that there were more emphases made about the 6
million Jews who died, while ignoring the death of the 30 odd
million non Jews who had also died. In every single message I
had posted about the holocaust. I made a point to clearly
establish
one FACT, that I was only speaking of my “experiences and what
*I* had observed”.
Well it seems that two members took excepting to what I had
posted and began jumping all over me because, (According to them)
“Who the hell was I to post my experiences and expect everyone to
believe them because I was an eye witness to these events.” And
that there were others who also were witnesses to what happen.
Yet they NEVER once produced the evidence of these witnesses,
who they were or if they were indeed former inmates. But
responded by the following, F…you, you F…ing this and
F…ing that. and in general just a bunch of responses that
began and ended with the words F….. and F….ing. I
understood that for personal reasons they wanted to flame me so
they resorted in using foul language. But what angered me was.
if I was lying, and they proved that, wouldn’t it also question
my
“EYE WITNESS” account of the holocaust?
Matt, here in the bbs, we are beginning to see a couple of
Neo-Nazi’s posting anti-Semitic comments. And by what these two
stupid idiots, (Mike Kennedy and Jimmy Pearson) were doing is
giving these Neo-Nazi’s the fuel they need in trying to
discredit the existence of the holocaust. By slandering MY
account of what I “personally witnessed,” they are in essence
stating that I’m lying and therefore these Neo-Nazi’s are
correct when they claim that the holocaust is a Jewish
conspiracy. I don’t know if they’re trying to be cute or they
are trying to put me down, but what ever the reason, They are
ending up into the camp of these Neo-Nazi’s. And I can now
almost guarantee you that those two Neo-Nazi’s that had
previously posted their anti-Semitic messages did so because of
the f…ing comment that both Kennedy and Pearson had posted in
response to my messages. Because what these two jerks did was
question the existence of the holocaust.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-02-93 Time: 11:45a Number: 212
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 4148
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
Conf: FN-RUSHL (255) Direction: FORWARD
AG> subject, but I will give you a digested detail of these
AG> messages.
And I
AG> “personally” witnessed the aftermath of the Holocaust. At
AG> wars end I was one of a few allied service men who were
AG> reassigned to England, to investigate and present our
AG> findings to the War Crime Court at Nuremberg. What we
AG> discovered were the records of all the inmates that were
AG> exterminated and those still in the camp had been
AG> destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both
AG> former prisoners and SS guards. and we were able to present
AG> a clear picture of the horrors that the SS had inflicted on
AG> these prisoners.
MG> Question, who did destroy them?
That’s a question that could be answered, but could never be
proven.
My Opinion? A American Army Major by the name of Rosenbaum.
(I’m speaking of only one camp that we liberated) My suspicions
were that while examining these records he discovered that
records proved conclusively that “five” times the amount of
Non-Jews had been killed, and he didn’t want any information
released that would indicate that the Jews had NOT been singled
out.
I can’t speak of how the records were destroyed in those camps
that were liberated in Russian occupied territory, because all
the Russians ever reported to our committee was that they had
been destroyed. But I don’t believe that it was done by
retreating SS troops. The visible horror of these camps were far
worse then anything the records could disclose so why destroy
them?
Besides after the battle of the bulge the best of Hitler’s
military had been distroyed and once we crossed the Rhine river,
the infantry were loaded on tanks and trucks, and we
“blitzkrieged” through German so fast that the SS guards didn’t
have time to even excape let alone destroy records.
But all of this isn’t the issue Matt, My dispute with Kennedy is
because he’s a stupid, pea brain idiot who tried to discredit
what I had posted, without any facts to substantiate his claims.
When he first responded to my original post about the holocaust
it consisted ONLY of..F….ing this …F… in that….F… you
etc.
at NO point did he present any evidence proving I had lied. He
couldn’t because he had absolute no knowledge about the
holocaust.
It was AFTER I had ignored him for over two months that he
finally went to a library to read up about the holocaust. And
then he selected a book that was authored 20 odd years After the
war had ended.
When he finally convinced himself that he had uncovered evidence
to disprove my claims. He post a message describing a number of
death camps In Russian Held Territory. Matt, at wars end Russia
dropped an “iron curtain” in every land they occupied, So where
could this information come from except in the imagination of
some idiots mind. But what infuriated me more was he Knew that
NO ONE could prove these claims one way or the other so he felt
secured that by the mere mention of these camps that would prove
HIS investigative powers. How do you disapprove a negative?
How can anyone write a book about camps that were restricted
>from public view? Yet this is the information that Kennedy is
calling “historical” documentation.
What I find humorist is his comments that the SS First converted
Barracks into gas chambers, then Bunkers, and lastly they
constructed these Buildings. And what does he present as “proof”
The remains of collapsed buildings. He describes in detail the
equipment used in pumping the gas into these buildings yet never
once disclose where this equipment is or are on display. He
mentions in “Detail” the alleged gas that was used. And at the
same time he admits that the Germans were experiment with this
chemical in an attempt to discover a faster method for
“de-lousing” these prisoners. He couldn’t make up his mind on
anything. Believe me Matt, the Germans still had gas that was
stored away since the end of WWI. the one thing they didn’t need
to do was discover a NEW gas.
Again, he originally “cursed” me out when I stated that the
records had ALL been destroyed. And in his last post he quoted
the book and stated “The SS destroy all records before escaping
the on coming allied armies” Am I the liar? or is he the liar?
How can he in one message claim that I lied about these records,
yet TWO months later comes out with the statement that the SS
had destroyed these records. He talks out of two sides of his
mouth.
Again I claimed that WE NEVER found any gas chambers in these
camps. He responds that the Commandant of Auschwitz Admitted
that camps existed. Yet this man was tried in Nuremberg for
this very act. And was ‘Exornarated” because WE failed to
produce ONE shred of evidence proving the existence of gas
chambers. The prosecutions whole case rested on the alleged
testimony of so-called eye-witnesses. Which the defense ripped
apart and proved it false. And this what that pea brain calls
(Continued in the next message)
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-02-93 Time: 02:58p Number: 213
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 4148
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
(Continued from the previous message)
verified Proof? I ignored this shit head for over two months
and I could of done it for two years. During the period I
ignored him he continued posting these outrages, undocumented,
exaggerated bullshit, and it still didn’t bother me. What got
my anger finally to a breaking point was when I read a message in
this conference from a Neo-Nazi and I realized that the crap
that Kennedy was shoveling out gave this anti-semitic piece of
shit the excuse he needed to discredit the existence of the
holocaust. These people are not stupid, they know that every
death camp in Russian held territory was off limits to the
western world. And that the Russians NEVER released any of this
information. So All they have to do is challenge Kennedy to
“Prove” these allegations. And HE CAN’T.
Now, the Neo-Nazi’s have the weapon they need to discredit the
holocaust. All because of the moronic crap that Kennedy had
posted.
All they had to say was…”prove it”. The book that kennedy
claims he got his information from, sure as hell couldn’t prove
a thing. And there isn’t ONE Neo-Nazi that doesn’t know that.
Kennedy is just being a wise ass. he’s out to flame me by trying
to show that my observations of the holocaust was bullshit, And
he really believed that he was impressing everyone of his
intelligence. When in reality he was fueling Anti-Semitic
Neo-Nazi’s campaign in proving that the holocaust never existed.
That moronic, idiotical, bastard, Kennedy got so carried away
with trying to get at me that all he accomplished was giving
these Neo-Nazi’s an excuse to post their filth in this and
probably other conferences thanks to Kennedy and that turd
filled skull of his. Matt, I hate that son of a bitch. I spent
my life in bringing the horrors that happened in these camps to
the people. I want the world to remember and never forget what
happened at these camps. I’ve written thousands of articles on
this subject and I’ve giving countless of speaches describing in
detail the inhuman brutality that WE had uncovered. This has
been my whole life work. And now here comes a low life, scum
swallowing, ass licking bastard, like Kennedy, Who tries to
undermine my efforts. by posting information that is an absolute
lie. For what reason? Just to flame me? There is a hundred
ways he could do that. without resorting to lies about the
holocaust. But I guess it’s a waste of time trying to convince
him of the damage he has caused. The turd that is in his skull
has pushed out the little brains that he originally had.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-20-93 Time: 04:09p Number: 805
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 524
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AG> about the holocaust. But I guess it’s a waste of time
AG> trying to convince him of the damage he has caused. The
AG> turd that is in his skull has pushed out the little brains
AG> that he originally had.
MG> I have a fair idea what it takes to earn the honor you
have
MG>received in Israel. I do not like the shit either. I found
it
MG>flat out impossible to even ask a question about the details
of
MG>the Holocaust without being called an anti-semite (on another
MG>thread no different that questioning one word of Genesis.) I
MG>found the response interesting but that was years ago. I
MG>learned. It started with questioning the US support of Israel
MG>== antisemitic. So the next time I did it was was loaded for
MG>bear and slowed down the opposition and then someone accused
me
MG>of denying the holocaust because I denied Israel was a
military
MG>asset to the US.
Matt, that happened a few years ago in another network, And If
you recall *I* came to your defense after a couple of those
characters tried to put the anti-Semitic brand on you. I didn’t
believe then, and I don’t now, that you have an ounce of
Anti-Semitism in your whole body. Nor do I believe you’re a
racist, or bigot. You are an open minded man who isn’t afraid to
express his views or opinions. And if more people in this
conference would take a good look at many of your post they’d
understand that your ONLY fault is you speak the truth as you
see it.
MG> The dam broke. Just by the accusations, snide remarks,
and
MG>other things I could describe most unpleasantly. What did it
MG>inspire in me? Challenge the assertations. A couple of days
ago
MG>a certain AG from Canada sent me a 10 part message on the use
of
MG>gas which I proceeded to take apart just for the fun of it.
If you’re speaking of Alec. He and I also went down that same
path. The only difference is that Alec. knows that I will come
to the defense of the Jews much quicker then the Jews
themselves. Being called an Anti-Semitic doesn’t bother me. I
know it’s not true and nothing anyone can say to me is going
bother me. I discovered years ago that those who accuse others
of anti-semitism are usually one themselves. And Matt, in my
time I met Jews who were anti-semitic. The debate going on
between Kennedy and I was one of the issues that I introduced in
that other conference, and I was accused of being anti-semitic,
and the funny thing is that Alec knew better and it was HE who
came to my defense.
MG> I started by saying they vanished, they are gone, all the
MG>evidence points culpability but that death in such camps was
so
MG>common it was a better trade off to give less food and let
MG>disease take its course rather than pay extra for gas and
special
MG>facilities and all the rest.
That’s exactly what they were doing. They couldn’t be bothered
executing anyone. they didn’t have to. All they had to do was
stop
feeding them (which they did) And if that didn’t kill them off
the disease from all those dead rotting bodies that were laying
around for month would sure as hell do a quicker job then any
gas chamber would.
MG> What I am most amused with is that NO ONE can have died
of
MG>camp conditions, disease primarily (US civil war camps are a
good
MG>enough example.) Death by disease? Impossible! It was gas
MG>only.
The issue isn’t gas Matt, it never was. A small group of jewish
radicals wanted to make it look as though it was ONLY the Jews
that were singled out,. So they came out with this gas garbage
to show the world that ONLY the Jews were being gassed. It was
bullshit then and it’s bullshit now.
MG> In the Canadian AG example I had the opportunity to point
MG>out in the same post a conflict between a plainly stated
reason
MG>to choose that kind of gas (local experiment) and then an
MG>implication that it was chosen because it was a pesticide.
That
MG>kind of crap is supposed to be convincing?
MG> I saved the response if you are interested. I am not
MG>particularly interested in defending it. It was top of the
head
MG>and only one reference but damn straight you don’t shove ill
MG>conceived garbage in my direction and call it proof I am
MG>anti-semitic.
Those accusations are only a sign of ignorance. Do you know how
(Continued in the next message)
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-20-93 Time: 04:09p Number: 806
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 524
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS (#2) (#2) 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
(Continued from the previous message)
this whole gas bullshit really started? Everytime a new batch
of prisoners were delivered to one of these camps the guards
would order them (men women and children) to strip naked, and
then
they moved them into a “de-Lousing” building where they sprayed
barrels of this chemicals on them. Naturally the stuff is going
to get into your nose and mouth and you’re choke on the damn
stuff. When the doors were opened everyone ran out choking like
crazy. Well one day, and no one knows when, A group had come
out of the building choking like crazy yelling that they were
gassing them. Well their screams were picked up by others and it
spread like wild flower throughout the whole camp. When we
examined Dachau. they prisoners pointed out four different
buildings that they believed were being used as gas chambers.
BTW one of the building happened to be the camp Commandants
office.
MG> From my point of view, I at no time spent any time
MG>questioning the holocaust (I read those questioning it, they
are
MG>irrational) until I was called anti-semitic. By god those
folks
MG>are going to pay for it in spades. I accept to higher cause
to
MG>accept their allegations.
Matt, it may not happen in my generation, or even yours, but
mark my words, they world will some day become fed up with all
this finger pointing and accusations. and when that day comes
(and I believe it will) It will be the Jewish people who will
suffer the most. I think they better wake up and put this whole
issue to sleep. People don’t like being accused of things that
they are innocent of, and unless it stops, your going to see
more and more Neo-Nazi’s groups being organized. and God help
this Country when that happens because they hate every race,
religion, and nationality others then their’s.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
Date: 09-19-93 Time: 02:38p Number: 507
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 317
To: MIKE KENNEDY Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: No
Subject: JEWS AND GAS 1/2 250: FN-FSPEECH
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AGºI have stated and will continue to state is “THAT THERE WERE
“NO”
AGºGAS CHAMBERS AT THESE CAMPS”. And you have NOT produced any
AGºevidence to prove otherwise except that crap about “collapsed
AGºbuildings” which ironically were discovered some twenty odd
AGºyears “after” the war had ended. Take my suggestion instead of
AGºtaking those nigger cocks in your mouth, try taking it up your
AGºass maybe the scum will reach and clear up that turd filled
AGºskull of yours.
MK>You have never looked at one reference I have given you. You
won’t,
MK>because you cannot face the truth. The people who have put up
with your
MK>obscenity-filled monologues know that you are wrong, wrong,
wrong. You
MK>have consistently claimed that, other than Auschwitz, there
were no
MK>camps in eastern Poland, and that Auschwitz never had any gas
chambers.
MK>You are so full of shit that it ain’t funny, you old fuck.
Why should I read that propaganda crap? Only moronic idiots
like you would accept the comments of authors who NEVER wrote
anything about the holocaust until 20 odd years AFTER the war
ended. And you are the biggest bullshit artist in the BBS. I
have stated CONSISTENTLY that Russia had barred us from entering
or examining those camps in their territory. If WE weren’t
allowed in Poland to visit Auschwitz, how the fuck could we have
visted any other camp in Poland. And what I find quite comical
is how you keep bringing up these camps that were situated in
Russian held territory, as PROOF that *I* had NEVER visited them.
Of Course I hadn’t visited them I’ve said that in EVERYONE of my
post yet you keep going back to that same issue as though you
are proving that I’m lying because *I* was Never at these camps.
When is it going to penetrate that shit filled skull of yours
that *I* personally was NEVER at ANY camp that was under Russian
control. Yet, I have stated “consistently” that for over thirty
years the Russians allowed No outsider into their area. This
means that NO ONE had any first hand knowledge of what happened
at Auschwitz or any other camp in Russian held territory. And
in spite of this YOU keep bringing up the issue of THESE camps.
AGºMK>IF you had the ability (which I doubt, due to the condition
of your worn
AGºMK>out neuron) to do the research I’ve done, you would never
have said
AGºMK>that. But you don’t appear to have the ability, so I
forgive you.
AGºMK>Ignorance, in your case, IS forever.
What research are you talking about? Auschwitz SS Commandant
Rudolf
Hoess, His prison term, and Memoirs. Which *I* rammed up you
ass. And was found NOT GUILTY of gassing prisoners or when I
produced
the fact that he had NEVER served a day in prison, And that he
was
executed by the Russians in early 1947 And NEVER wrote his
Memoirs.
Or that one about the Jewish stone mason the SS went into Warsaw
to find so that he could construct the Gas Chamber. A few years
AFTER
the Germans had moved EVERY SINGLE Jew out of Warsaw. Or After
calling me
a liar when I stated that the records of the inmates in these
camps had been
destroyed, then a few weeks later you posted the message that SS
soldiers had destroyed these records prior to the allies
entering these camps. Is this the research you’re talking about?
AGºAnd that’s the major difference between the two of us. You’re
AGºreading the crap about the holocausdt from writers who were
AGºnever at these sites until twenty odd years After the war
ended
AGºWhile in contrast *I* was there. I assisted in the liberation
of
AGºtwo of these camps. *I* was in a group of soldiers who
AGºinvestigated these camps. And that’s the differences between
AGºyou and *I* you fucking misformed syphilitic fetus.
MK>You never visited a single death camp, asshole. You were at
two, count
MK>’em TWO, concentration camps in Germany. And I could care
less about
MK>whether a writer visited even ONE site. They have themselves
either
MK>interviewed the people who lived or worked in those death
camps, or
MK>they’ve researched the interviews which others have taken.
You have
MK>not. I don’t give a good goddam about two CONCENTRATION camps
which you
MK>may or may not have seen. I’m not talking about those,
dickwad. I’m
MK>talking about, and HAVE BEEN talking about something very much
MK>different. Yet you are so fucking stupid that you have never
paid one
MK>bit of attention to that fact. I am talking about fucking
EXTERMINATION
MK>camps. Let me type that a bit more slowly for you–
Twisting my messages again aren’t you? I Originally stated MY
Infantry Company had “LIBERATED” Two Concentration camps. I
NEVER posted which other camps I had visited because that
question
was NEVER asked. But for your information WE did examine the
following.
Dachau, outside of Munich, Buchenwald, outside of Weimar,
Mauthausen, outside of Linz in Austria, And Belsen.
MK>E X T E R M I N A T I O N C A M P S. Get the picture now,
shitstain?
MK>You have been harping on about something of which you know
absolutely
MK>NOTHING. And if you had even ONE working neuron, you would
shut up NOW
MK>and cut your losses. Because, Al, you are in well over your
head, and
MK>this shit is deep.
(Continued in the next message)
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:58 PDT 1996
Article: 42564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Al Gentile III
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:45:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:48:01 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
===============================================================================
Date: 11-05-93 Time: 02:26p Number: 1275
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 831
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: Just a note… 250: FN-FSPEECH
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
MK> And you really should drop this thing you have about
MK> publication dates. They really aren’t terribly important.
MK> If they were, your notes from 1945, which were never
MK> published anywhere, would be completely worthless.
MK> BTW, H”ss’ memoirs were originally published in 1961. The
MK> 1992 publication is a new translation. But you already
MK> knew that. You read the foreword, didn’t you?
MG> And just what might be the EXACT title of this book?
MG> Later we will get around to why this “confession” was
MG>insufficient to result in a conviction.
Matt, the man is a total idiot, Hoess NEVER wrote his memoirs, he
never had the time, nor would he had stuck his neck out at
Nuremberg. And the name of the commandant was Hoess NOT Hoss..
*I* looked up that book and NO WHERE in the introduction or in
the book does there appear “any” comment that Commandant Rudolf
Hoess ever wrote the book. And even if he had. Neither Germany
nor Russain Publishers would have touched that book with a ten
foot pole. This moronic asshole, never even knew that Hoess was
Exonerated by the Nuremberg court until *I* had mentioned it.
I proved him a liar with every comment he ever posted about the
holocaust. As an example, when *I* stated that the camp
“personnel” records had been destroyed, He called me a liar
yet less then a month later he posted a message that the SS had
“destroyed” these records. He first claimed that the Germans
were experimenting with delousing chemicals in trying to find an
effective gas to use against these prisoners, And after I
shoved that lie down his throat, He came out with that Cyanide
bullshit.
But what was more remarkable he continued to inject Auschwitz in
all his arguments using those “alleged” eye witnesses as proof,
when it was common knowledge that the Russians “NEVER” released
any information about this camp nor did they allow any
inspection of this camp until many years AFTER the war ended and
they had the opportunity to construct building on that site
claiming they were gas chambers, because they wanted to attract
the tourist trade, for those millions of American Dollars they
were able to pocket.
I no longer have to prove my case, the Russians did that for me.
A few weeks ago they had released a KGB report about Auschwitz
which coincided with what *I* had ALWAYS claimed. That the only
information that the Russians ever presented to our committee
were documents signed by Russians officers claiming that Hitler
was gassing “Russians Civilians”. And this is the exact report
that they have now released to the rest of the world. So the
bullshit artist has been all these so-called historians and
their “alleged” eye witnesses, which that moronic idiot, Kennedy
kept quoting in all his messages.
BTW if you take the time to visit the library and pick up the
book “death camp” by Rudolf Hoss, you’ll discover that it was
published in 1992 and is a “FIRST EDITION” so where does this
other book allegedly authored by Commandant Rudolf Hoess in 1961
come from? It seems that the asshole Kennedy wants us to believe
that Commandant Hoess wrote his memoirs on or about 1946,
(before his execution) and it was stored away for 14 years before
being published? By who, The Russians? This crap has come from
the same bullshit artist who claimed that the Germans used
“COKE” in cremating the dead prisoners.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:44:59 PDT 1996
Article: 42565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Al Gentile IV
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:46:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 146
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:49:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
===============================================================================
Date: 08-14-93 Time: 01:06p Number: 4119
From: AL GENTILE Refer: 3573
To: MATT GIWER Board ID: T-RECALL
Recvd: Yes
Subject: ATL.SEX.WIZARDS 255: FN-RUSHL
Status: Public
——————————————————————————-
AG> posts or you weren’t around when they appeared. When I
AG> came into this conference I introduced an isuue on the
AG> Holocaust. My message contained only those events that I
AG> had personally experience and observed. In spite of this I
AG> recieved two answers that were loaded with F… you F….
AG> lying F…F…F… I don’t like or use that word and *I*
AG> don’t approve of its use. And I re-laid that message to
AG> these two characters. Their response? “double the amount
AG> of F…words”.
MG> Since others were not here how about posting some
messages
MG>with the same original content and see if we can get a brawl
MG>going. Nothing is better for an adrenalin rush than jackasses
on
MG>the boards.
Matt, I’m sure you have read my previous posts on this subject,
but I
will give you a digested detail of these messages. During WWII
while
serving with the 84th Infantry division, my Company liberated two
concentration camps. One in Krefeld, and the other outside of
Hanover. And I “personally” witnessed the aftermath of the
Holocaust.
At wars end I was one of a few allied service men who were
reassigned
to England, to investigate and present our findings to the War
Crime
Court at Nuremberg. What we discovered were the records of all
the
inmates that were exterminated and those still in the camp had
been
destroyed. (and NOT by SS Guards) We interviewd both former
prisoners
and SS guards. and we were able to present a clear picture of the
horrors that the SS had inflicted on these prisoners.
We also visited these camps and uncovered that three foot thick
concrete buildings had been constructed with sprinkling system in
the
inside of the building, Along side of these building there were
large
tanks containing a mixture of Gas and oil. These sites were used
as
“Crematories” for the thousands of inmates who were dying daily.
(the
twenty individual constructed crematories were unable to handle
the
amount of prisoners who were dying daily.) At NO camp did we
find any
building that was being used in “gassing” the inmates. And even
after
all the investigations that has been conducted since the war
ended NO
ONE has been able to present ANY evidence that these gas chambers
existed.
Through our efforts, a few Commandants and SS guards were tried,
convicted and executed, for the crimes they had committed at
these
camps. The only area we were unable to examine were those camps
which
were situated in Russian held territory. They allowed NO allies
into
this area. And even to this day we still have NO information on
how
many camps were in the area, the amount of prisoners, or the
total
amount of those who died in these camps. Basically what I was
trying
to convey over was that fact that the holocaust did in fact
“EXIST”
and my only complaint was that there were more emphases made
about the
6 million Jews who died, while ignoring the death of the 30 odd
million non Jews who had also died. In every single message I
had
posted about the holocaust. I made a point to clearly establish
one
FACT, that I was only speaking of my “experiences and what *I*
had
observed”.
Well it seems that two members took excepting to what I had
posted and
began jumping all over me because, (According to them) “Who the
hell
was I to post my experiences and expect everyone to believe them
because I was an eye witness to these events.” And that there
were
others who also were witnesses to what happen. Yet they NEVER
once
produced the evidence of these witnesses, who they were or if
they
were indeed former inmates. But responded by the following,
F…you,
you F…ing this and F…ing that. and in general just a bunch of
responses that began and ended with the words F….. and
F….ing. I
understood that for personal reasons they wanted to flame me so
they
resorted in using foul language. But what angered me was. if I
was
lying, and they proved that, wouldn’t it also question my “EYE
WITNESS” account of the holocaust?
Matt, here in the bbs, we are beginning to see a couple of
Neo-Nazi’s
posting anti-Semitic comments. And by what these two stupid
idiots,
(Mike Kennedy and Jimmy Pearson) were doing is giving these
Neo-Nazi’s
the fuel they need in trying to discredit the existence of the
holocaust. By slandering MY account of what I “personally
witnessed,”
they are in essence stating that I’m lying and therefore these
Neo-Nazi’s are correct when they claim that the holocaust is a
Jewish
conspiracy. I don’t know if they’re trying to be cute or they
are
trying to put me down, but what ever the reason, They are ending
up
into the camp of these Neo-Nazi’s. And I can now almost
guarantee you
that those two Neo-Nazi’s that had previously posted their
anti-Semitic messages did so because of the f…ing comment that
both
Kennedy and Pearson had posted in response to my messages.
Because
what these two jerks did was question the existence of the
holocaust.
—
þ DeLuxeý 1.20 #190bt þ
===============================================================================
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:00 PDT 1996
Article: 42567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:00:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:03:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>> > I checked. It wasn’t. You have never given a citation to either the
>> >indictment or the judgment of conviction. There was a bald statement that he
>was
>> >”acquited” and then retried in Poland. In fact, he was convicted by the IMT.
>
>> Fine. You checked. What did you check? Where is the reference?
>> What does it say? Please be specific.
> The judgment of the acquittal in the published records of the IMT. They
>are rather easy to find. For the umteenth time – DO YOUR OWN DAMN
>RESEARCH.
Excuse me, but I posted with IMT references. I am simply
interested in your source.
Of course you have none. That is why you do not respond,
killfile challenged one.
>> As to your “where convicted” routine, what I posted was with IMT
>> references to the conviction.
> It was not. Your citation a reference to an exhibit — that is a document
>used at the trial — not to the judgment.
Your error is your own. Sorry about that, killfile challeenged.
>> > I.e. Giwer finally did some research, found an account of thrial and
>> >found it did not agree with his invention. He therefore describes it as
>incomplete.
>> >Most “scientists” collect their data before they announce conclusions. Giwer
>> >pursues a different methodology and then whines when the data disagrees with
>> >him.
>
>> Unlike you, any attorney would know that the omission of the
>> disposition of the case is an incomplete recounting of any trial.
>> But then I would not make such a claim on your behalf.
> I have not seen you source. Are you claiming that it did not note the
>charges against him and note that he was found guilty of those charges?
Are you claiming someone unable to master a killfile is bright
enough to contribute to this discusion? If so, why?
>> I have already posted the IMT references to it. You are the one
>> out in the cold.
> Keep repeating the nonsense that an evidentiary exhibit is a final
>judgment. It does wonders for your credibility.
That is not what I said in the least, But you know that.
>> > No. They used his own memoranda among other items of evidence.
>> >None was “Soviet generated.”
>>
>> The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes
>> that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you
>> claiming generated the details?
> You are changing the subject. We are talking about “details” but the
>documentary evidence — including his own memoranda — used as evidence against
>Pohl. What is the basis for your claim that those memoranda were “generated” by
>the Soviets? If you have nothing more than a claim you invented, stop making the
>silly claim.
We are talking about Soviet evidence and we know the Soviets were
capable of demanding death sentences for crimes they knew they
had committed.
That is, to say the least, a tainted prosecution. But then any
honest attorney knows that. You, however, do not appear to know
that.
Any honest attorney would admit that if the SAME prosecutor who
had lied in a failed attempt to indict people on a FALSE charge
such as Katyn Woods were then to demand indictment on other
changes any competent defense counsel would seek to have the
bastard disbarred.
But of course you would not do that. You would accept all of his
requests for indictment equally.
You are either not a criminal counsel or you are lucky you have
not been sued into a job at McDs for rank incompetance.
Why not just admit you are a corporate attorney (at best) and
have no idea what you are talking about? It will make you look
less foolish than your inability to master a killfile.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some of the Giwer Troll’s Lies: Initial Draft
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:02:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:04:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article
>said:
>>
>>This is a very initial draft of a file containing outright
>>lies posted to alt.revisionism by Matt Giwer.
>>Giwer claims to have an IQ of 163. He is also, currently,
>>the most active “Holocaust revisionist” on the group. Giwer
>>routinely tells other posters here “remember, to me you are like a
>>certifiably retarded person to the average person”.
>Danny, I am surprised. You missed the first lie. Surely the claim to a 163
>IQ is one of the biggest whoppers the Giwer-troll has ever told.
>[rest deleted]
>One thing that is not a lie.
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Obviously, McFly, there is still no one in there.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42573 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:41:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.13[email protected]> <4pgrjm$emo@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:44:13 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:388659 alt.politics.libertarian:173386 alt.politics.democrats.d:85784 alt.politics.usa.republican:213954 alt.politics.usa.congress:42976 alt.politics.reform:74545 alt.activism:53122 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319797 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24608 alt.revisionism:42573
[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>In <4pigtp$[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>
>>>The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>>>squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>>>inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>>>killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>>>camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>>>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>>>As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>>>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>>>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>>>”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>>>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>>
>> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>>there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>>records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
>>
>> But then there are stories for all occasions and they are all
>>equally true.
>>
>>>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of
>>>crap, questioning the Holocaust. They’d be more honest if they simply
>>>admitted it and said they’re only sorry the job wasn’t finished. But
>>>such honesty would be against their nature. Nazis are pathalogical
>>>liars by nature..
>>
>> What you appear to fail to realize is that the only thing in
>>question are these mass exterminations and not the concentration
>>and labor camps. If you stick with the documentation you refer
>>to, they are still there. So is the death rate, right from the
>>records recording the cause of death.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Been spending too much time in your leather Gestapo uniform lately?
>As has been said elsewhere, your revisionist bullshit is not welcome
>here.
>This is alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, not
>alt.homosexual.revisionist.nazi.
First you ask me to take it out of your favorite conference and I
decline to reply.
Next you defend the lies of the holohuggers and expect no response.
Will you please get yout signals straight?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:02 PDT 1996
Article: 42574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: missing files
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:49:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:51:56 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>I’ve not follow all the exchange about missing files but the best
>I could remember Tom was complaining that some of his post were not there. I’ve check
>in my case also in the section people and it seems that they keep
>track of only a part of the post.
>Doesn’t seems to be related to a ‘choice’ however, their system
>seems to work sometimes and sometimes not, regardless of the contain.
Their site does not work for shit.
It is no more than a medium of self aggrandizement, expecting to
be honored guests at Sedar or some such.
Remember the claim that regex was a search engine to understand
the technical ignorance of the people running the site.
I know of one site where there grunt delights in signing his
messages VP.
And for Nizkor, incompetants delight in signing themselves
co-webmasters.
Anyone who could read the help files could do better than they
are doing.
Anyone knowing what they are doing would have written an indexing
program long ago.
What we have at Nizkor is a bunch of unqualified amateurs
pretending to what they are not at the most basic level, that is,
being able to maintain a website.
As HTML is so simple and the level of programming needed to deal
with text is so trivial one would have expected even rank
amatuers to have grasped it by now. But they have not.
The website itself is testimony to their level of intelligence
and ability.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:03 PDT 1996
Article: 42575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nose-honker still at large
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:50:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:53:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Civil of course but for what damages? Criminal? (as our resident
>> Pennsylvania lawyer implied.) If by some miracle something that
>> bares ranks as a misdemeanor were subject to mutual prosecution
>> with Canada. I doubt Canada has enough surplus prosecutors to
>> take an interest in the matter.
> Excuses, excuses, excuses. Why don’t you give them a call and find out
>for sure.
Those of us familiar with the law do not have to waste a quarter
to be told the obvious.
What is your excuse?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.13627[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bc3b08.5[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
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Chuck Ferree
>CHUCK FERREE writes:
>Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was
>a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the
>first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man
>get a little bit of your history straight.
Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
the date, deal with them.
Get back to me when you have straightened them out.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 06:45:05 PDT 1996
Article: 42578 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:30:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:32:50 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>In <4pif[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>>
>>Erik Marksberry
>>
>>
>>> You are the only one I ever said was ignorant. And to answer your
>>>point, the persecution of the Jews began in 1933 with the rise to power of
>>>the Nazi party.
>>
>> Actually a quite limited bit of truth.
>>
>> The Nazis came to power in Jan 1933 when they managed to put
>>together a governing coalition of the parties which held seats in
>>the Reichstag.
>>
>> Between then and March international Jewish organizations
>>organized a permanent economic boycott against Germany in the
>>middle of the Depression. They announced it in March. One week
>>later there was a one day boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany
>>organized by the Nazis.
>>
>> The permanent international boycott continued and at that point
>>the rest of the permanent responses to the permanent boycott were
>>instituted.
>>
>> You may also hear that the first camp, Dachau, was opened in
>>March, 1933 but at the time it was for political enemies.
>>
>>=====
>>
>> Keep firmly in mind, recitation of facts is not revision.
>>
>>
>Go away.
If you have a problem with facts that are sworn to by Nizkor I would
suggest you take it up with them.
Please remember that the Nizkor Gang told me to learn and I studied
their website. In this case I point out what they are saying is true.
Your gripe is with them, not with me.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:05 PDT 1996
Article: 42582 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:57:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 3:59:31 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>>>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>>>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>>>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>>>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>>>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>>
>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>rate.
>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of the
>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation that
>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>construction of crematoria.
A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. I have
no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.
Remember it was all Soviet information and they in the person of Rudenko
were willing to lie in an attempt to get a conviction.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42586 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TELL HIS MOMMY
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:32:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:34:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Alec Grynspan
>tom moran wrote:
>> Now why would Nizkor (McVay, McCarthy and Hilary) afford
>> accomodation for easy access to a poster’s news-server? The obvious is
>> obvious. They want people to e-mail objections to the news-servers of
>> any listed post tagged with the highlighted link.
>So that people can see for themselves.
>Because they know that they’re not falsifying things and are confident
>that anybody following the links will see the same thing.
Just what is there to see at an email address?
>> Evidently they must be feeling kind of limp, insecure and
>> impotent in dealing with their adversaries head on. An admission of
>> inadequacy. Lack of faith in their position. A subliminal expression
>> that they are corrupt.
>Thank you for the admissions as to your true motives. Your transference
>of your emotional state shows that you are still in denial and still in
>need of extensive therapy.
Alec, I thought you knew better than “I am not but you are” after
all of these years on the boards.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TELL HIS MOMMY
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:30:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:32:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>
> Inspite of any rhetoric Nizkor people or their supporters might
>fiegn on supporting free speech, Nizkor carries clickable links to
>news-servers for easy access to file complaints about any of their
>adversaries.
> Take the example of Nizkor dossiers of alt.revisionism posts that
>it carries. Articles, or more correctly, threads in articles are
>listed under “people” in their ftp files, complete with headers that
>have highlighted links which include the news group, the posters
>address and, and, and a link to his news-server.
> Now why would Nizkor (McVay, McCarthy and Hilary) afford
>accomodation for easy access to a poster’s news-server? The obvious is
>obvious. They want people to e-mail objections to the news-servers of
>any listed post tagged with the highlighted link.
> Evidently they must be feeling kind of limp, insecure and
>impotent in dealing with their adversaries head on. An admission of
>inadequacy. Lack of faith in their position. A subliminal expression
>that they are corrupt.
> Poor, poor Larry, Moe and Hilary.
Before these wrong kind of posts stop being posted it would be of
interest to collect the responses of the Gang of Six (or Seven)
for future reference.
After all, some day they may achieve the publicity and fame they
crave. At that point there will be press interviews, talk shows,
all the rest.
And then there will be opportunities for confrontation.
For example,
“Mr. McVay, when the statement was made that crematoria do not
have the capacity to accomodate the number of bodies produced,
did you not say, and I quote, ‘The only problem with the
cremation rate is that your father did not know how to use a
condom’?”
A fertile mind can envision many such opportunities using the
posts fo the entire Gang.
Do not forget that these folks are expecting the praise of their
fellow holohuggers for their activities. Nothing will shoot down
public praise faster than making them unsuitable for public use.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:11:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 7:13:32 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>Yale Edeiken wrote (regarding Ehrlich606):
>>The fact
>>that someone who is basically a decent person who presents his opinions
>>honestly and without bigotry cannot participate…
>Thank you for the entirety of your remarks on this subject, you hit on an
>important point.
>I have long thought it an onerous mistake to create a tone in a newsgroup
>(whose avowed purpose is to exchange information) that serves to drive
>away people who are put off by the abrasiveness, without regard to their
>philosophy or what they may add to the discussion. People, such as Ms.
>Ostrov, who do this may have what in their minds are good motives for
>using the method of personal attack, but the results of such activities
>are counterproductive, antisocial, and the kinds of things generally
>associated with brutes and mobs.
>I’ve read the sarcasms about inordinate sensitivities, and the silly
>rationalizations for invective. They are nothing more than excuses for
>self-serving boorishness that destroys any possibility of legitimate
>discussion and furtherance of understanding. What a sad state this is.
>Of course, it does go right along with the phantom image of playing to a
>hidden audience of gullible college-age lurkers. That characterization
>would have gotten a horse-laugh and several raised middle fingers from the
>many independently minded people I met in my college days. Have things
>really changed that much? I don’t think so. I hope not.
It is unclear why you do not recognize that the objective of the
Gang of Six is to prevent discussion and exchange that is
contrary to what they purport to be the truths, all of them.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42604 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:11:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:13:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Marty Kelley
>One of Matt Giwer’s more bizarre trolls lately has been to claim that
>witness accounts of gassing victims’ screaming is proof that the accounts
>must be false, since, as everybody knows, men do not scream in mortal
>terror. Only women do.
>Leaving aside the fact that I personally have, on at least three
>occasions (ask my wife!) had nightmares from which I woke up screaming,
>and the fact that I screamed when a I became aware that a burglar was in my
>apartment (ask my ex-wife…no connection between the burglary and the
>divorce, BTW), let’s look at a historical even, which perhaps Mr. Giwer
>will see the need to revise in light of his great knowledge of human
>behavior.
>I just finished James Welch’s outstanding book _Killing Custer_, which
>focuses on the Native Americans’ viewpoint on the events surrounding the
>battle of the Little Bighorn. In the afterword, filmmaker Paul Stekler
>(with whom Welch co-wrote the script for a documentary that this book
>grew out of) cites a letter written by Private Charles Windolph, a
>survivor of Major Marcus Reno’s unsuccessful first charge on the Indian
>camp at the Little Bighorn. Steckler writes that Windolph described how
>”Soldiers staggered aimlessly, many wounded and bleeding, while
>terror-stricken stragglers fell through a disorganized skirmish line at
>the top of the ridge. . . . The wounded lay screaming on the ground, many
>crying for water in the oppressive heat.” (P. 287)
>I guess this means that the battle of the Little Bighorn never happened.
>(And let’s not even _start_ on the conflicting witness accounts of the
>events…)
>Prediction: Mr. Giwer will say that it doesn’t count that these men were
>screaming, since they were wounded. I believe he _does_ allow an
>exception for men to scream in pain, just not in terror… How exactly he
>knows what part of a scream comes from pain and what part from terror
>could be an interesting question for this expert on human behavior to
>explain.
Any asshole can predict what he has already read me say. And you
have proved you are in the any asshole category. How about a
real prediction next time?
>But let us explore this fascinating generalization of Mr. Giwer’s more
>thoroughly: Do men scream from terror? I’m pretty sure I do,
Really? For help or just scream? But you are only “pretty
sure.” What else do you have going for your position?
but then
>I suppose it’s possible that, all biological evidence to the contrary, I
>am not really a man.
How sure are you of either?
Let’s give Mr. Giwer’s weighty objection to the
>authenticity of eyewitness testimony the serious empirical investigation
>it deserves.
As you know, descriptions of US gas chamber executions do not
include screams from pain.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 17:26:55 PDT 1996
Article: 27672 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:41:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4o4moc$10[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4peb[email protected]> <4pf13[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>>> _The Turner Diaries_ by William Pierce, writing as Joseph McDonald.
>>
>> Not a pamphlet and a work of fiction.
>Are you stupid or what? The point is that it ADVOCATES MURDER.
Dear Idiot,
The claim was pamphlet.
You have provided a work of fiction in novel form.
Thank you for your time.
Disrespectfully,
/me/
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 19:22:35 PDT 1996
Article: 42642 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent False Witness
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:39:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 10:41:44 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>CHUCK FERREE WASTES TIME”
>Matt, shut the hell up. You don’t know, you just guess. Your getting
>onmy friend in Chicago’s nerves again. Not to mention your ingnorance.
>Chuck
And you single handedly ended the war in Europe.
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>> >>The gassing lie was spread by the Americans. (note 3) The lie that Jews
>and as usual he stuffs us with his line of total nonsense.
You really should learn who you are calling an idiot. That is
not my post.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 19:22:36 PDT 1996
Article: 42644 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gibberish…
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:14:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 8:17:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Johan Carlson
>First of all I would like to say that I’m new in this newsgroup. I spent
>yesterday reading through some of the articles and I must say that it
>was an astonnishing experience. It really doesn’t take a genius to
>realize that Mr. Giwer is an idiot. Furthermore it takes no, or at least
>very little knowledge of history to realize that his so called proof
>that the gassings never took place is a work of an ignorant.
You are obviously not very bright as I have never claimed to
prove the gassings did not occur. That is up to those making the
claim that there were gassings.
As I not presentee the “proof” correct or not, that you claim I
have, what in the hell are you talking about?
>I would like to ask Mr. Giwer a question:
> Did you come up with all that b.s. by your self, or do you have people
> around you to help inventing all stories?
What stories are you talking about? Please be specific in your
response.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 19:22:37 PDT 1996
Article: 42650 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:19:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 9:21:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>Oh, btw, Mr. Ehrlich. A friend of mine recently subscribed to AOL.
>Subscribers to AOL, as you know, have the privilege of finding the
>name behind the nick. He let me know what yours is.
>Now, I woudn’t dream of publishing it here (because I wouldn’t want to
>see your “cobbling” efforts diverted by those predatory net babes whom
>you fear might disturb the equilibrium of your marriage).
>But I do find it strange, since if I recall correctly you did tell us
>that you _are_ an historian, that a cursory net search didn’t turn up
>anything that you’ve published. Then again, I recall that you did
>make reference, in at least one post, to some “ghost writing” that
>you’ve done. Are all your published works “ghosts”, Mr. Ehrlich?
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>***********
>Now there’s a methodology to take pride in. Sweetness and light.
What do you expect from a gentile young lady on a mission from
god?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 20:20:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42664 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A simple question for Ken McVay
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:21:23 GMT
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L.D. Coons <[email protected]> wrote:
>Does it ever occur to you that, while you are engaged in your
>cyber-warrior routine, your would-be allies (viz. Bernie Farber et al) are
>busily campaigning to rob you of your hobby? I don’t, for what it’s worth,
>doubt the historicity of the holocaust, but it is hard not to notice that
>the greatest present threat to our civil liberties is not a resurgent
>national socialism, as some would comically have us believe, but the
>activities of Canadian Jewish organizations as they attempt to suppress
>heretical opinions through our notorious hate laws and Human Rights
>kangaroo courts. Notice the obvious theological connotations of the term
>”holocaust denial,”
>as though the holocaust were a doctrinal truth and its denial a kind of
>blasphemy. In short, while you debate, your friends want to ensure that
>the other side can’t respond. Shouldn’t you perhaps occasionally
>acknowledge that Bernie Farber is a greater threat to our freedom than
>Ernst Zundel?
Well said.
It is difficult to add to what you have said.
But let me try.
They advertise their own enemies. I have NEVER, EVER, save one
exception, come across one purported “hatesite” or “hate group” save by
their advertising. That one exception was David Dahlman being name Hate
Site of the Week.
Their entire mission in life was best expressed in Don Quixote.
Cervantes was born centuries early.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 389015 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:08:59 GMT
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>In <4pjchj$[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>rate.
>>
>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>the
>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>that
>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>construction of crematoria.
>>
>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>I have
>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.
>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards
>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>Nuremburg War Trials.
I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not
questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 389086 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:04:25 GMT
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“D. Braun”
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> “D. Braun”
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >> “D. Braun”
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >> >> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >> >> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >> >> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >> >> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >> >> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >As for how the number of 6 million came about… See, the Germans were
>> >> >> >big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>> >> >> >along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>> >> >> >”no longer operative,” or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>> >> >> >accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Despite your built in perjorative, if the Nazi records are used
>> >> >> there was no gassing. That is why the claim that there were no
>> >> >> records kept of those who were to gassed immediately.
>> >>
>> >> >??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>> >> >documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>> >> >the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>> >> >survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>> >> >architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>> >>
>> >> >Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>> >> >died of natural causes? What?
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>> >> ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>> >I was referingf to the figure combining Jews and non-Jews. Your propaganda
>> >is extremely weak—- of the you say its white, I say its black variety.
>> >What the hell is a “holohugger”, shithead!!! Maybe you could tell me
>> >where a few dozen relatives on mt father;s side went—on vacation!!!!???
>> >You are a worthless piece of shit, and if you were lying in the road, I
>> >would not only not swerve, I would back up and run you over again.
>> >You area miserable excuse for humanity. Who the fuck are you, anyway?
>> >Maybe you should post your real name and address so someone can put an end
>> >to your miseravble existence!!!
>>
>> It is not clear how to deal with your problem.
>>
>> The SWC states very clearly that the “Holocaust” applies only to the
>> what happened to the Jews. If you disagree, take it up with them.
>>
>> Holohugger is very similar to a holoworshipper. Those who will lie to
>> preserve gassing because the love the idea of martyrdom. Very Christian
>> actually.
>>
>> As to your family, perhaps they were among the 1.6 million deported to
>> Siberia by the Soviets from Poland alone. Perhaps they were among the 2
>> million conscripted to be part of the human wave to charge the German
>> lines.
>>
>> But it is clear that your love of death and gore indicated by your post
>> shows you truly are infatuated with the idea of death and related
>> nastiness.
>>
>> You are sick. You wax ecstatic just thinking about death.
>I won’t respond to your drivel, except to say that some of those that got
>away volunteered in a Jewish brigade, and fought in North Africa with
>distinction killing Germans.
I would certainly hope that is who they were killing.
A weird thing happened recently; my
>sister married a guy whose father was captured in North Africa by the
>British; my own relatives could have been shooting at each other. No one
>tried to kill each other at the wedding— they got along great. You, on
>the other hand, are a disgrace to any race or nationality;
Just who is stupid enough to think such a thing is possible?
you wish to
>erase history in order to prop up your venomous, hate-filled view of the
>world, to somehow justify your exalted delusional status as a member of
>the “master race”. The Nazi’s were defeated 51 years ago. Get a clue.
>BTW, I would still not swerve around you in the road.
You appear to be assuming something that is both not in evidence and not
true.
But I would suggest you inform the holohuggers the Nazis have been gone
for 51 years. They see them everywhere.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:40 PDT 1996
Article: 389126 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:19:13 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>”D. Braun”
>>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>>>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>>>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>>
>>>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>>>died of natural causes? What?
>>
>> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies
>and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too.
5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is
in the camps. If you add up the camps you don’t find enough dead. So
we have these wandering Einsatzgruppen to take up the slack to keep the
number about the same no matter how many millions the camp deaths are
reduced by.
>[Giwar babbles on claiming there is no evidence]
Why don’t you post some?
>For those interested in what kind of evidence there is I suggest a look
>at http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ if you are into being sickly amused
>try http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar01.html
I have looked at a lot of it. I have posted a lot of it here pointing
out the nonsense in it. You should read some of it skeptically also.
Lately I have posted incontrovertable proof that Treblinka had
crematoria, a witness said so. I posted incontrovertable evidence that
cancer is an infectous disease, a witness said so.
I have even found the really true truth about Zyklon-B was first used
and how exposure to Zyklon-B causes flesh and clothing to fuse into
gelatinous blobs that “some times disintegrated when the members of the
detail tried to pick them up” two days later.
I find the site very useful to point out that absolute nonsense that
passes for truth on Nizkor.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:41 PDT 1996
Article: 389323 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT
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[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp
>guards
>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>>
>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones
>not
>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>Read the post carefully. I didn’t mention “questionable statements
>produced by the Soviets.”
>Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of
>former camp guards and former prisoners.
Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you
claim that is true, where did this occur?
>Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur?
I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only.
Why would you confuse the two?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:41 PDT 1996
Article: 389325 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:07:02 GMT
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Erik Marksberry
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >>”D. Braun”
>>
>> >>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> [email protected](Ambrose) wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >The killing took place between 42-45. The Nazis first used firing
>> >>>> >squads and then dumped the bodies in mass graves. They found this
>> >>>> >inefficient and expensive, so they then resorted to gas. So many were
>> >>>> >killed in such a short time because they had a vast network of death
>> >>>> >camps… It was a whole industry. Many believe Germany could have won
>> >>>> >the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>>
>> >>>??????You are making me a bit queezy. The gassing was thoroughly
>> >>>documented: records of zyclon “B” manufacture and shipping to the camps;
>> >>>the gas chambers themselves; eyewitness accounts of concentration camp
>> >>>survivors that unloaded the gas chambers after the victims were dead; the
>> >>>architectural plan for the chambers; etc.
>> >>
>> >>>Say it— are you saying that the 12 million murdered in the camps
>> >>>died of natural causes? What?
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>> >>ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>> >I had thought it was around 10 million, 6 million Jews, 4 million Gypsies
>> >and assorted other unclean people but 12 million could be right too.
>>
>> 5.2 million Jews according to the current true number. But the issue is
>> in the camps. If you add up the camps you don’t find enough dead.
>[snip]
> Could you post the numbers of dead found at each camp, complete with
>the appropriate references?
Read the fucking NG. A holohugger claimed within the last two days that
there were 1 million attributable to the roving death squads.
And also learn that there were never 5.2 million dead found as that is
what all of the cremation and vanishing ashes claims are all about.
You really need to carefully read the claims of the holohuggers here
before you continue. Nothing I have said to you so far disagrees with
their position.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:42 PDT 1996
Article: 389353 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:01:38 GMT
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Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>I’ll repeat! The Nazis established Dachau, long before the war
>started. So if you don’t believe this, you are not only more stupid
>that we all think you are, you’re also too fucking lazy to check it
>out.
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
>> >>the date, deal with them.
>So what are we talking about here, idiot? You say on the one hand
>1942, than you switch to 1933 so you can call me a liar. This is
>bullshit, Gwier, you know it and I know it. Facts never did mean
>doodely-shit to you, and they still don’t. You’re just a street
>brawler, looking for a fight, and let me tell ya, pal, I’d kick your
>ass so quick, you’d think you were in the city of the Angels.
>> >>
>> >> Get back to me when you have straightened them out.
>Fuck you. You get back to me when you can tell the correct time by
>looking at a clock.
>>
>> >Don’t fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by
>> >arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust
>> >revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble.
>Thanks, but have no fear, everyone knows this turkey. He’s in need of
>help, AA, or some such outfit. But until he wants to hehave like a
>normal human being, he’s just another asshole to me.
>>
>> And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower
>> steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree?
>>
>> >He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud
>> >of it.
>>
>> >Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original
>> >question until he answers it. But don’t hold your breath.
>>
>> There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there
>> was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting?
>Say what? Try what by what? Matt, go back to running one of those
>sweatshops where you make lots of money off the labor of others.
>You are a total waste of time. But I’ll bet you’re a cute MF!
The people you have stated are your friends do not quote you, do not
support you, and clearly wish you would shut up.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:43 PDT 1996
Article: 389406 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:26:47 GMT
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>In article <4pj2na$[email protected]>, [email protected] says…
>>>Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>>>when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?
>>
>> How many?
>>
>> What is the number?
>If you are literate and are able to read beyond a 5th grade level, you might
>try going to the history section of your local library. I am sure they can
>supply you with the information and, who knows, you might actually learn
>something.
>This is all a matter of record and I am sure if you write the German
>authorities they will be glad to give you the approapriate information from the
>trials where it is all documented in typical Nazi detail.
>URL: any library on the face of the earth.
So you are saying that if I find such a number and post it that no
holohugger will object to it? I did not think so.
I am really quite surprised you folks do not have such a number right
off the top of your heads. Just for openers I can add 1.2 M + 0.8 M + 1
M from A-B, Treblinka and Einsatzgruppen respectively and have 3 M.
At least those numbers I have from holohuggers. How about another
million for all the rest of the death camps? Sound reasonable to you?
We can deal with the remaining 1.2 M from disease, accident, age and the
like later.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 09:30:44 PDT 1996
Article: 389433 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:58:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <31bba1db.13627[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bc3b08.5[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:52:58 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>Chuck Ferree
>>
>>>CHUCK FERREE writes:
>>
>>>Giwer, you are so dumb! The Nazis came into power in 1934. Hitles was
>>>a total dictator by then. He decided what happened next. Dachau the
>>>first camp they used was all ready a death camp by 1936 or before. Man
>>>get a little bit of your history straight.
>>
>> Nizkor says January 1933. If your senile mind has a problem with
>>the date, deal with them.
>>
>> Get back to me when you have straightened them out.
>Don’t fall for this Giwer trick. He will avoid the main topic by
>arguing minor points. Matt is a confirmed anti-semite and Holocaust
>revisionist. The only reason he is on here is to stir up trouble.
And what is the main topic you think is under discussion? Eisenhower
steal all the credit for winning the war from Ferree?
>He is a right-wing asshole of the highest magnitude. And he is proud
>of it.
>Just ignore his diversions and ask him to answer the original
>question until he answers it. But don’t hold your breath.
There was no original question as you know. Why would you claim there
was such a question? Trying to demonstrate diversion by diverting?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:38:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:41:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >Mr. Allen, the top of the Zyklon B introduction columns passing through
>> >the ceiling would have been held in place, and denied any lateral
>> >movement, BY THE CONCRETE CEILING. Do you have a problem visualizing this
>> >simple spatial relationship? Would more drawings help you to correctly
>> >understand why a column passing through a hole in the roof would be
>> >constrained in lateral movements? One begins to wonder at the reasons for
>> >your obtuseness, Mr. Allen….
>>
>> You know when you folks were talking about these things being an
>> insert into hollow concret pillars (February’s truely true
>> description) you had marginally fewer problems.
>Unfortunately for Giwer, he has discombobulated himself again. The person
>who put forward the silly idea that the Zyklon B introduction columns were
>” hollow concret pillars” was Mr. Beaulieu, a self-admitted Holocaust
>denier.
I regret to inform you that I was engaged in many exchanges with the
holohuggers claiming the gas would go out those four inch long holes.
You need to look it up on Nizkor.
>> Now with these free standing and removal columns all people had
>> to do was reach up and keep them from being put in. Or if they
>> were already inside, all the had to do was raise them and push
>> them back out. Not much more than a stopgap measure of course
>> but it certainly could have been used as a scene in a comedic
>> version of Schindlers’ list.
>Oh, my. Giwer The Monumentally Stupid _must_ have sprained one of his last
>few functional neurons coming up with the above! Obviously, Giwer is
>spatially challanged. (Perhaps I _had_ better draw some pictures!) I can
>only shake my head in wonder at the amount of effort Giwer demonstrates in
>ensuring that he stays impressively ignorant of such details as are being
>discussed here.
>The Zyklon B columns, in spite of Giwer’s ignorant protests, were not
>free-standing. They were anchored to the floor. This obviously would
>immobilize the columns in the vertical axis and the bottom of the columns
>in the horzontal plane. The top of the columns also passed through the
>concrete roof, which would then act as a collar on the top of the column,
>also immobilizing it in the horizontal plane.
>Now, given that the Zyklon B columns were secured in both the vertical and
>horizontal, on what basis does Giwer assert that all the victims had to do
>”was raise them and push them back out?” Why none of course! But then
>Giwer rarely lets minor details- like the fact that the Zyklon B columns
>were quite secure -stand in the way of spouting drivel!
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail..jpg
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns..jpg
Neither of these appear to match your description.
>What about Giwer’s claim that all the victims had to do was “reach up and
>keep them from being put in?” What is “them?” The columns? No, the columns
>were _already_ securely in the gas chanber. What, exactly, then? Perhaps
>Giwer meant the Zyklon B? But no, the small _removable_ cores slipped down
>into the gas chamber _inside_ the large, fixed, Zyklon B columns. So what
>_is_ Giwer, babbling about? Why _nothing_ of course! He’s simply
>blabbering to hear his own voice.
Do you, too, hear my voice like Dahlman?
>BTW, I would suggest that Giwer put some ice on his neuron. He obviously
>has too few to spare….
So did you make up your description or do you have some pictures of
them? You do not appear to be contrained by reality at this point.
After all, they are still there are them not? And no one has ever
bothered to find one much less photograph one.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: As blue as blue can be
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:42:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:44:27 PM PDT 1996
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Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in “KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS”, p. 176]
————————————————————-
… The “disinfectors” were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription “Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!”. The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
see?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:52:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 3:55:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >Mr. Allen, the top of the Zyklon B introduction columns passing through
>> >the ceiling would have been held in place, and denied any lateral
>> >movement, BY THE CONCRETE CEILING. Do you have a problem visualizing this
>> >simple spatial relationship? Would more drawings help you to correctly
>> >understand why a column passing through a hole in the roof would be
>> >constrained in lateral movements? One begins to wonder at the reasons for
>> >your obtuseness, Mr. Allen….
>>
>> You know when you folks were talking about these things being an
>> insert into hollow concret pillars (February’s truely true
>> description) you had marginally fewer problems.
>Unfortunately for Giwer, he has discombobulated himself again. The person
>who put forward the silly idea that the Zyklon B introduction columns were
>” hollow concret pillars” was Mr. Beaulieu, a self-admitted Holocaust
>denier.
>> Now with these free standing and removal columns all people had
>> to do was reach up and keep them from being put in. Or if they
>> were already inside, all the had to do was raise them and push
>> them back out. Not much more than a stopgap measure of course
>> but it certainly could have been used as a scene in a comedic
>> version of Schindlers’ list.
>Oh, my. Giwer The Monumentally Stupid _must_ have sprained one of his last
>few functional neurons coming up with the above! Obviously, Giwer is
>spatially challanged. (Perhaps I _had_ better draw some pictures!) I can
>only shake my head in wonder at the amount of effort Giwer demonstrates in
>ensuring that he stays impressively ignorant of such details as are being
>discussed here.
>The Zyklon B columns, in spite of Giwer’s ignorant protests, were not
>free-standing. They were anchored to the floor. This obviously would
>immobilize the columns in the vertical axis and the bottom of the columns
>in the horzontal plane. The top of the columns also passed through the
>concrete roof, which would then act as a collar on the top of the column,
>also immobilizing it in the horizontal plane.
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming/wiremesh..jpg
And for what it is worth, this French drawing has no such anchor or
anchoring attachment as you very clearly state there was. Are you
certain you are not making this up?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42697 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:24:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pgrj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:26:55 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (DbtgThomas) wrote:
>Ambrose wrote:
>>Many believe Germany could have won
>>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
>That’s a curious theory. Who are some of the many that believe this
>implausible claim. It won’t pencil out, won’t even come close. Sounds
>good though.
It is called secret admiration.
Sort of like going back to the good old days when Isaelites could
genocide to their heart’s content.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:10 PDT 1996
Article: 42723 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:41:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42723 alt.usenet.kooks:24971 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:45
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># And does seeing others die induce screaming in men?
>Are you claiming this is not possible? More so when the
>men realize they’re also going to die? More so as they
>realize that their family members are also going to die?
I am noting that it is a consistent “eyewitness” report. Too much to be
just a fluke.
>Does your opinion have something to do with the death of
>your second wife, which you said took place? I recall you
>made an odd, rather odd, comment about your reaction when
>she died. Want me to post it?
Why would you want to do that? What is your motivation?
>Say, Giwer, has it ever occured to you that you’re *really*
>not a normal human being? You could be, possibly. It’s just
>that some ingredients were left out.
I am much too intelligent to be normal like you folks. But you are
great studies in pack behavior.
># And the steam story is still a deliberate fabrication
># used to convict at least one Nazi. That does not inspire any
># confidence in any of the other stories.
>The “steam story” was explained. So were the rest of the erroneous
>reports: these were made by members of the Polish Underground
>who spied on the camps from a distance, and, although they saw
>the corpses being taken out from the chambers, they failed to
>understand exactly how the killing took place.
Polish underground reports from a distance lead to a conviction? And
this after someone was able to find a T-32 engine but not the
foundations of all the buildings including the gas chambers and the
crematoria?
Please. You strain what little credulity you had left after you claimed
it was oil vapor and oil soaked buildings and the inherent flammability
and explosion dangers.
>Moreover, at least one such report by the Polish Underground
>I have seen does not say that steaming etc. were the methods used,
>but raised the possibility that the victims were killed by
>that or a different method. It’s possible that someone later
>misundestood these reports and thought that they made a hard
>claim about the methods used. But I don’t consider this to
>be a very important point.
Correct, you never get around to explaining electrocution and vacuum
chamber deaths. Want to take a shot at them now?
>As we all know, much more reliable information was supplied by
>the people who were right there by the gas chambers – the SS-men
>who ran the camps, and the surviving sonderkommando. But you can
>trust our nazi-boy “revisionists” to keep ignoring this, and
>to mention only the reports of the Polish Underground.
And you refuse to deal with Pohl having been convicted of steaming
people to death. But then in Holoworld people get hung on such
evidence.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:10 PDT 1996
Article: 42728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:37:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bc3b08.5997[email protected]> <4phvsj$6k[email protected]> <4pin1o$7r[email protected]> <4pj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: The above is where it started, in response to the international
>: boycott.
>Is this the same Prince Myshkin who said that the proper response to
>discrimination against Blacks in the South was boycotting those
>businesses that discriminated?
I do not remember saying that any time recently. But at least you agree
the Nazis were all talk when it came to Jews until after the boycott was
organized against the entire country in the middle of the Depression.
>: >Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>: >when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?
>: How many?
>: What is the number?
>The number is over a million, as reported by the Einsatzgruppen themselves.
Over a million is not good enough. I want a fixed number or number
range that no one will seriously disagree with. And that number needs
be the total number of directly exterminated, not those that are
accounted for by camp conditions.
>You might try reading the transcript of the “Einsatzgruppen trial,” in
>which the evidence against the defendants consisted *solely* of those
>reports — no eyewitness testimony. You might also try explaining why
>none of the defendants claimed that the reports were forged or exaggerated
>(of course, if they were exaggerated, then it’s hard to argue that there
>wasn’t a policy of mass extermination, but I digress). Rather, the
>defendants took the position that they were “only following orders.”
What is the link to the transcript?
>And when *are* we going to see that translation of the Hitler quote?
Whenever someone gets around to translating it.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:11 PDT 1996
Article: 42729 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rack Jite
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:42:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:44:44 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:06:09 +0000, Ray Majewski
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!First of all let me point out that the name Jack Rite is a lie. This
>!guy’s very existance is a lie.
>Because Su hated me so much she not only jumped in bed with you to help
>her in her game of censorship and bannishments, but she married your
>sorry ass because your mutual hate of THE LIBERAL was so powerful.
>Not only are you one of the most intolerant right-wing censors in this
>medium, but you have the intellectual capacity of a pea gravel.
What’s the matter, Davey-girl? Machine tool sales slow?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:12 PDT 1996
Article: 42730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !ALEC GRYNSPAN IS A LIAR PROOF
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:40:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4nj[email protected]> <4o067h[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31a7[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:43:15 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Mon, 27 May 1996 10:33:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!>2)Matt Giwers & Alec Grynspans *mutual friend* also maintains that
>!>ISP.
>!Your paranoia is showing.
>!1. Matt Giwer was addressing your message when he mentioned “mutual
>!friend”, not me.
>!2. I know no one in Combase.
>!3. You can’t even tell reality from BS any more.
>You are so full of shit you float pal…
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Matt Giwer
>>>[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>>You’re assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>>>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher’bot, not a
>>>web page at all!
>>Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
>>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.
>So how you going to deny this. Bad staff? Bad employees? Bad software?
>Not enough header? Its a forgery? But however you worm around it, it
>will be some unethical, dishonest sleazy crap which is your shit nature.
You mean my son and I are not permitted to have a mutual friend? Not
even one? What did we do to deserve that?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:12 PDT 1996
Article: 42734 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Boys in the Sand
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:46:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:48:44 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
> On May 7, 1996
>Moran posted: “The Official Nizkor Code of Responding”
>
> Hillary Ostrov
> (Nizkor co-webmaster)
> alt.revisionism
> “No Zyklone – then DDT”
> “Many of us believe that ridicule
> is the most appropriate response to
> one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
> questions and responses.”
> ‘We at Nizkor will be the ultimate authority on what
>constitutes “idiotic questions and responses”.
>
> Actually, it is a childish ploy for evasion. Hilary has never,
>as far as I know, posted anything of substance. Of course she could
>come back and post some of her stuff to rebuke this claim. Okay
>Hillary, go for it.
Actually she did make the substantive contribution that regex is a
search engine.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:13 PDT 1996
Article: 42735 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor, Home of Superheroes
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:29:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:31:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Johan Carlson
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> As I not presentee the “proof” correct or not, that you claim I
>> have, what in the hell are you talking about?
>>
>In the articles from the Nizkor people there are plenty of references to
>as well historians, survivors and even testimonies from nazi officers who were
>there. What more proof do you really want?
Evidence. As you know so much of the testimony is clearly absurd. So
absurd that we we two very different versions of the same first use of
Zyklon B/
>WHAT ARE YOUR MOTIVES MR. GIWER ??
Practicing while waiting for the Pres campaign to warm up. I practice
on creationists also.
>The only “proof” I’ve seen in your articles is references to other holocaust
>deniers’ speculations. Where are the testimonies Mr. Giwer?
You mean about Zyklon B causing flesh and clothing to fuse into
gelatinous blobs after two days? You mean that kind of testimony?
>No other historical event (that I know of) has been tested so hard as the Holocaust.
Who told you that? Rather, where did you get that idea?
>With your so called proof you could probably prove that ‘operation desert storm’ was
>just a media trick.
As I have noted, I have attempted to prove nothing about the holocaust.
You can repeat it for years and that will not make it true. Or do you
understand what proof is?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:14 PDT 1996
Article: 42739 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:49:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 169
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pd[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 6:52:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes.
>> >> Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we
>> >> will all be interested.
>>
>> > I already have. It happens. You are wrong.
>>
>> You have posted only from Katyn Woods and steaming to death
>> quality sources. No rational person considers such sources
>> credible.
>Correction: No rational person considers Giwer a credible _anything_.
>As for the quality of sources, rational people who are interested in
>verifying such events as took place during the Holocaust generally attempt
>to research the matter using a variety of sources to achieve the widest
>possible perspective in regards to them. This, of course, is how we know
>that the Polish resistance reports of “steaming,” etc. were incorrect.
Then how was a many hung for the crime of steaming?
>And, of course, it is also how we know, for example, that homicidal
>gassing took place at Auschwitz, and that about 1.1 million people, 90%
>being Jews, perished there.
We do keep hearing that story. Do you not find it interesting that we
now have two different stories of the first use of Zyklon B?
Do you not find it interesting that the reputation of Nizkor is behing
both stories?
In case you forgot …
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another lovely story
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT
Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed the
falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point of
view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch
having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly
true story of the same first use.
It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it.
That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the URL
so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site of
this alternate reality true truth.
=====
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure
proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived
in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps
for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a shot
in
the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to
the
Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that
wore on
the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however,
an SS
officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser
=====
Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from
Fritsch?
=====
noticed that one of his
companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was
instantly
knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that
was
used as a disinfectant.
=====
Instantly “knocked out.” One has to wonder just what it was that
this person “whiffed”. It is also of note that here it is used
as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant.
=====
To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering
the
half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser
had
several cans of the blue pellets,
=====
Note the blue kitty litter. How strange.
=====
which vaporize when exposed to
air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting
execution.
=====
Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs into
the room.
=====
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies
were
met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had locked
themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each
other’s
hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their
clothes
had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated
when
the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp.
59,
112, 134.)
=====
Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the
Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to
be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse
into gelatinous blobs.
Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is what
really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised?
But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it comes
>from seeing a person “knocked out” from one whiff. Then we note
that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to recover
consciousness before dying and go through the hair pulling and
finger biting routine.
But this is a true story that Nizkor swears to as being gospel.
Is there anyone out there who still denies that Nizkor is
supporting absolute nonsense? Lying through their collective
teeth that is?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:15 PDT 1996
Article: 42740 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:24:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 2:27:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>> But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
>>> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
>>> Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
>>> declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation
>>> for this? If England’s reason for declaring war upon Germany was
>>> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades
>> but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I
>> know why, but I’ll keep this one in my bilological hard drive.
> Lack of a suicidal urge was the first idea that came to my mind. As
>it turned out, England could not even handle Germany without help from
>both America and Russia, let alone Germany and Russia simultaneously.
>Anyone who believes that the reason a country goes to war is justice has
>some decidedly peculiar ideas about the way the world works.
It is good to see you agree that Britain declared selective war upon
Germany and that it “treaty” with Poland was a meaningless excuse.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:15 PDT 1996
Article: 42742 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:04:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4ot9[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 7:07:04 PM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42742 sci.chem:37083
[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>>> All very interesting but you will remember that our California
>>>> chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the
>>>> bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. If you
>>>> want it to be something else I would suggest you take it up with
>>>> him, develop a consistent story, and get back to me.
>>
>>>Notice as that Giwer has been shown to be an ignorant fool without the
>>>simplest knowledge of chemistry- or how to use a dictionary -he runs away
>>>from his claim that bone ash (calcium phosphate) is NOT a fertilizer? Yep,
>>>he runs just like a whipped dog, tail tucked between his legs and yelping
>>>all the way!
>>
>> Sorry but you have just pointed out that the California chemist was not
>>telling the truth or perhaps you are not. He said it was one thing; you
>>claim it is something else. Who am I supposed to believe? Or are you
>>both lying?
>Mr. Giwer cannot provide an example of Mr. Van Alstine and I making
>different claims about bone ash. Perhaps, that’s due to Mr. Giwer’s
>ignoarnce of freshman-level oxidation-reduction chemistry.
Just a couple days ago you corrected me by saying that you were talking
about CaO2 vice CaO3. What are you claiming you were talking about now?
>> Why don’t you two get together, come up with a single story, and get
>>back to me.
>>>> It is impossible for me to deal with multiple true truths at the
>>>> same time.
>>
>>>Actually, it has become quite apparent that Giwer is unable to deal with
>>>_any_ truth at _any_ time!
>>
>>>> Apparently you holohuggers are able to believe many mutually
>>>> exclusive things are true at the same time.
>>
>>>Nooo, that Giwer’s gig. He can also espouse multiple lies at the same time.
>>
>> Either or both of you and the chemist is lying.
>Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of lying on my part or on the part of
>Mr. Van Alstine.
Then why did you correct my statement that you were talking about CaO3
to saying you were talking about CaO2?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:16 PDT 1996
Article: 42746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:48:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:50:53 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>Mike Curtis wrote (of Ehrlich606):
>>>He can’t fool some of us any longer so its time to go.
>>For an example of how easily some folks are fooled, please refer to the
>>thread– Re: Dresden?
>Gosh, who are you going to shil for now that he is gone. You may have
>to wriggle up to Giwer for a while. That way you can get all kinds of
>shill work done.
>Try presenting your own views rather than being a fop for someone else
>who is head over heals more honest than you appear to be.
As the holohuggers do nothing but mindlessly repeat what others tell
them, it would be refreshing if they were to follow your advice.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:17 PDT 1996
Article: 42748 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:05:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pd[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:07:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Strangely that is not reported. For help, yes. In pain, yes.
>> >> Not pure screaming. That is unreported for men.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, if you wish to post examples of it, I am certain we
>> >> will all be interested.
>>
>> > I already have. It happens. You are wrong.
>>
>> You have posted only from Katyn Woods and steaming to death
>> quality sources. No rational person considers such sources
>> credible.
>Correction: No rational person considers Giwer a credible _anything_.
>As for the quality of sources, rational people who are interested in
>verifying such events as took place during the Holocaust generally attempt
>to research the matter using a variety of sources to achieve the widest
>possible perspective in regards to them. This, of course, is how we know
>that the Polish resistance reports of “steaming,” etc. were incorrect. It
>is also how we know that the Germans were not responsible for mass murder
>of Polish military officers in the Katyn forest.
It is impossible to use this excuse for a mistake and at the same time
acknowledge a man was executed for the crime of steaming.
And that still does not address the oily smoke claim which would have
made the buildings major fire hazards.
And it does not address the further claims of electrocution and vacuum
chambers.
And it does not address the doormat story or the mattress story.
And it does not address where all the crematoria at Treblinka
disappeared to. (The mattress story and the crematoria story have the
reputation of Nizkor behind them.)
>And, of course, it is also how we know, for example, that homicidal
>gassing took place at Auschwitz, and that about 1.1 million people, 90% of
>the Jews, perished there.
And if someone were to produce testimony from the dead you would believe
it.
>But, given that Giwer is not a rational person he would not have realized
>this. Instead he bickers and whines to feed his pathetic ego, which
>reminds me:
>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
>sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
>apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
You are the one who believes Nazi doctors could infect people with
cancer as the reputation of Nizkor supports.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 42749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:19:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:22:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
>> >> > like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>> >> > shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
>> >> > pressures?
>> >>
>> >> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
>> >> Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here.
>> >> That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also
>> >> called a conspiracy.
>>
>> >Oh, my. Giwer is whining again. Tsk tsk. [queue itty-bitty violins.] Take
>> >it to alt.whine.whine.whine, Giwer.
>>
>> Statement of fact, little one. There was in fact harrassment of
>> a service provider by the holohuggers. It is good to see that
>> you do not deny it. It is another example of the lack of
>> integrity of holohuggers. They are quite dispicable, you
>> realize.
>Deny what, exactly, Giwer? That you are a misanthropic prick who spammed
>the newsgroup over a dozen times with re-posts of the _entire_ Wannsee
>protocol? I wouldn’t even _think_ of denying that!
Is this how you holohuggers justify harrassing my family?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 42750 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:23:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:25:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>[About gas chambers]
># After the war they were only found in territories controlled by
># the Russians.
>Liar.
># And only the Russians found gas chambers.
>Liar.
>Why do you lie so much? Is it some kind of a disease?
Are you still into your Dachau delousing chamber fantasy? That is the
only one you folks have left and it is agreed it was a delousing chamber
these days. You cling to “it was some other building” but there never
appears to be any evidence of it. All there is going for it is the
fierce assertions of the holohuggers.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:19 PDT 1996
Article: 42751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:20:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:22:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:
>On Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:23:11 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>>
>>
>>But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
>>> like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>>> shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
>>> pressures?
>>
>> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
>>Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here.
>>That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also
>>called a conspiracy.
>>
>> Who else would do it be a holohugger?
>>
>I wouldn’t believe on word of what Mr. Giwer says anyway, if there is
>to be any truth to what Mr. Giwer says, then let who ever is in charge
>of Combase step forward and verify this, other wise Mr. Giwer’s post
>is just another load in a mountain of offal that Mr. Giwer brings to
>Usenet.
Is this how holohuggers justify harrassing my family?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 42755 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The case of the missing file
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:22:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31b6f1cc.7611[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 5:24:42 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>> Jamie, does this mean you are not going to address the missing
>> material that should be in the non-missing files?
>I might, if you explain to me what you’re talking about.
>If you mean your own inability to find the directories under the
>heading “moran.tom” (hint: check where it says “Directory Name”)
>then — yes, I am not going to address it.
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
>> Jamie, where is the Degesch patent
>It’s awfully presumptuous to snipe at us for not doing your research
>fast enough for you.
>> and the Degesch manual?
>I’ve got hardcopy of most of it; if you’d like to key it in for us,
>I’ll be happy to snail-mail it to you. These things take time, you
>know. Or maybe you don’t know. I don’t know.
Not only will I scan it in but I will provide decent HTML for it. Want
my address? Or do only some people get the offer?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 42756 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:24:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pf[email protected]> <177A2F6DAS86.B[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 5:27:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (borowsky) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> [ . . . . ] For
>>example, if one points out there are records of all the people
>>and cause of death, the true story of gassed being unrecorded is
>>raised. When you point out there is no way to tell the
>>”unrecored” from any ot the other 32 million that disappeared
>>without a trace the true story that they were all registered is
>>raised.
>
>How will you cope if English is made the nation’s official langauge?
Much better than you, obviously.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:21 PDT 1996
Article: 42773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:58:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4n[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pe1[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 6:01:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>[To Rich Green]
># If you knew what you were talking about you would know that
># toxicity is a product of quantity and time.
>Ok. So how long do you suggest it would require, say, for 50 percent
>of the HCN to evaporate from the Zyklon at the following temperatures:
>1) 20 C.
>2) O C.
>3) -20 C.
This can not be determined save by measurement as the carrier
(diatomite) would have a significant impact upon the time due to surface
cooling and thermal conductivity considerations. It is not clear that
pure HCN would result in a reasonable first cut. (And beyond that, I
still haven’t found the box where I hid my reference material for the
move.)
The measurements I can come up with are 32 hours for 5C and 6 hours for
30C for complete outgassing (the time when the windows can be opened and
the stuff safely disposed of) which covers about the range of
temperature usage short of winter in an unheated building.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:22 PDT 1996
Article: 42774 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gibberish…
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:57:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:00:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> You are obviously not very bright as I have never claimed to
>> prove the gassings did not occur. That is up to those making the
>> claim that there were gassings.
> No. You insist that those interested in the historical record do so
>again and again. It was done at the Nurmeberg trials, for example, and the
>Eichman trial in Jerusalem.
It is good to see you have agreed that I have not claimed to have
proved anything.
>> As I not presentee the “proof” correct or not, that you claim I
>> have, what in the hell are you talking about?
> For once Giwer is right. He has never presented any proof. He has
>not even presented coherent argument. Moreover, since he asserts that the
>proof already presented cannot be accepted, the burden is upon him to present
>it.
Rather those who are not capable of mastering a killfile present
themselves as qualified to comment.
Do you realize how stupid you look for your failure to master a
simple killfile? And yet you want to be taken seriously here?
No one in their right might would give you any credibility as you
are so stupid.
Spend your time mastering how to make a killfile work and then
you will not be wasting your time with equally stupid posts to
me.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 42775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Dear Jamie
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:07:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 8:10:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
This is a proposed HTML 3.0 item. 3.0 is dead. Netscape 2.0 does not
support it. HTML 2.0 compliance is
.Nizkor FTP file: miscellany/dkeren-incoming/wiremesh.jpg
Nizkor FTP file: miscellany/dkeren-incoming/wiremesh.jpg
The border=0 is only of interest when the image is an HREF when you
don’t wish to show one.
[ miscellany/dkeren-incoming
]
The Nizkor Project
[email protected]
Director: Ken McVay
OBC
HTML: Jamie
McCarthy
But it is good to see you in charge of the HTML.
March 15, 1996
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 42779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ghettos?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:54:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p2d9f[email protected]> <4pg5e9[email protected]> <4pg[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 1:56:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>> Now here was have a policy of mass extermination on one hand and
>>>>the economic burden of maintaining these ghettos on the other.
>>
>>> In the ghettos in occupied Russia, at least, the ghettos contained
>>>laborers. In fact, one document mentions how they could not afford to
>>>remove all the Jews from some areas because they made up such a large
>>>proportion of the skilled craftsmen. If they needed the labor from the
>>>ghettos it would not have been an economic burden.
>>
>> Strangely Nizkor carries an unassailbly true file claiming
>>exactly the opposite, that they were all killed, the Wehrmacht
>>would import more and they would be killed again.
> Why do you never post URLs? Afraid someone might catch you in a
>misreading like the “after a few minutes there was silence” = “the
>screaming went on for tens of minutes?”
Why would I need to do that? The endearing MS Ostrov has assured this
entire newsgroup that Nizkor has an excellent search engine. You should
have no problem at all using it and finding the exact reference in
seconds.
>> But there are so many true truths here it is difficult to keep
>>them straight.
>>
>>>> Does anyone else get the feeling there is something inconsistent
>>>>about this?
>>
>>> Yes, I do. But then, I also get a feeling of inconsistency when I
>>>hear that they give medical care to people on death row in this country.
>>
>> Nazi doctors who could perform the miracle of infecting people
>>with cancer would do that?
> I don’t know. If and when I find a Nazi doctor working in a prison
>_in this country_ which has a death row, even one who cannot perform that
>miracle, I will ask that question and get back to you with the answer.
> And we have not even considered the obvious fantasy of a last meal
>request. As you know, food is for the purpose of sustaining life
>functions. Feeding a condemned person before execution serves absolutely
>no real purpose. But even if we assume that some feeding is required to
>avoid the “cruel and unusual” clause, only a holohugger would believe in
>the ridiculous idea that a prison spend any effort to ask for a last meal
>preference, or money to provide steak and other goodies to someone who is
>to die for the torture, rape, and murder of a little girl. It is clearly
>inconsistent.
> The California gas chamber myth will fall. It is only a matter of
>time.
Nice try but Nizkor has put its reputation behind the story that cancer
is an infectous disease but citing the government of France is an
authority on the subject.
And of course we know there was NO fabricated evidence used by the IMT.
So it must be possible for Nazi doctors only to infect people with
cancer.
The gullibility of you folks is truly amazing.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 42793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!news.abs.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:33:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 10:36:27 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>
>> Then how was a many hung for the crime of steaming?
> Because he wasn’t. except in your imagination, of course.
The ball is in your court, killfile challenged fool.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:25 PDT 1996
Article: 42802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:15:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 7:18:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>>> It started as an observation that there were four causes of death
>>>>>>at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution
>>>>>>and vacuum chambers. It also turns out there was a conviction
>>>>>>for steaming so they were not merely mistaken reports they were
>>>>>>rather clear lies.
>>>>>Your statements are from the former testimonies, from several hundred
>>>>>meters aways whithout any way to be more accurate.
>>>> That is either clear nonsense OR it was possible to get a
>>>>conviction based upon witnesses hundreds of yards away. Either
>>>>way, it does not pass any muster in any court but a kangaroo one.
>>>In the first time, as nobody can escape AND witnessing the murdering
>>>process, it sounds natural. In an second time, when escaped inmates
>>>and SS can testimony it was easier. Why do you mind Stangl was
>>>sentenced to a life emprisonment ? Perhaps because because the
>>>Dusseldorf judges were harsh ?
>> The subject is Pohl, convicted of a crime that never occurred.
>You said (see some lines above) that the subject was the cause of
>death at Treblinka. Could you be a little consistent ?
Pohl was convicted of steaming people to death at Treblinka. Remember
that point? What is particular do you find inconsistant about that?
>>>Gerstein, Pfannenstiel aso will be sufficient. They never said that
>>>oil was the cause of death. They said only that in 28mn-32mn the
>>>vitims were dead, with a stopwatch. Pfannenstiel said it too to
>>>Rassinier, a well-known revisionist who would be glad to hear another
>>>claims.
>> Wasn’t Gerstein the man who committed suicide immediately after
>>his confession and who body was immediately lost? Maybe it was
>>cremated in 20 minutes.
>You’re indeed very well-informed, in you own way. He surrendered in
>April 45, in Rottweil. He commited suicid in July (25) 45, in the jail
>of ‘Cherche-Midi” (Paris). Your ‘immediately’ can be translated in 3
>months. His body was never lost, except in the mind of some
>revisionists you have certainly read.
You folks never include such interesting information rather you distort
what happened. For example …
You have only said that he committed suicide three months after his
surrender. That is a distortion you are trying to link with the
confession.
I stated his suicide was immediately (two days if I remember correctly)
after the date on his confession. And then in fact the body was lost
which I find quite as amazing as the FBI losing a steel door from their
property room. Just where do you lose a body?
>This man was the SS who was likely to explain what was happening to
>Von Otter about the extermination camps, in the summer of 42. He wrote
>too a letter to Dr Peters (how many time the last sending of Zyklon
>will remain usable) in May 44, so he seemed to be in the right place
>to know what happened.
It is strange that people ask such questions when the shelf life is
until the can rusts away and the stuff leaks out. It is almost as
strange as the long list of witnesses who clearly state that the pellets
were blue. It continues to be of interest that eyewitnesses seem to
report so many common misconceptions.
>But Pfannenstiel was still alive when Rassinier met him. And he said
>the same thing that Gerstein, excepted what involved him personnally.
What does this have to do with the subject of a written confession?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:26 PDT 1996
Article: 42808 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TELL HIS MOMMY
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 03:33:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 10:35:28 PM CDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>If you understood history a little better, and read my previous posts,
>I never say anything that I can’t prove. I’ve all ready proven that
>you are a liar, as has many others.
>tom moran wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree writes:
>> >That all you got to say, Moran? More tap dancing. Can’t you come up
>> >with some facts, some history? You just like to bullshit people?
>> >Give us a break,
>> >Chuck
>> >
>> Give “us” a break? Why do you folks cling to each other like
>> pathetic souls in a life raft?
>Yeah, that’s because we are friends and like each other. You on the
>other hand, don’t make friends, you’re out there all alone, talking to
>yourself. Babbling bullshit. Poor Tommy, must be hell.
The last time I used you as a reference to a holohuggers the response
was very derogatory about you as a source of information. It was not
the response of a friend of yours.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:27 PDT 1996
Article: 42809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Web-sites revised listing
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:39:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 4:41:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>Well, Giwer is finally getting some fine fine recognition! 🙂
>!>Revised 05/25/96
>!>For new posters, the following web-sites may be of interest. They are
>!>of related interest to those wishing to know the TRUTH about j*wish
>!>propaganda, and cover a wide spectrum of topics from Revisionism to
>!>Patriot pride to in-bred j*wish genetic diseases.
>!
>!>NATIONAL ALLIANCE
>!>http://www.natvan.com/
>!
>!>At the Center of a Storm
>!>http://www11.cyber24.com/html/2_27.html
>!
>!>Zundel Site
>!>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/
>!
>!>neopage
>!>http://bluemoon.net/~frenz/
>!
>!>The Genetic-Disease E-Mail Discussion List
>!>http://q.continuum.net/~wrosen/list.html
>!
>!>Adelaide Institute – The final intellectual adventure
>!>http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
>!
>!>Holocaust revisionism
>!>http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/
>!
>!>Greg Raven’s IHR materials
>!>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/
>!
>!>The Nation Of Islam Online
>!>http://www.afrinet.net/~islam/
>!
>!>Radio Islam – English
>!>http://flashback.se/~rislam/english/english.htm
>!
>!>CODOH INTERNATIONAL Index
>!>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/inter/inter.html
>!
>!>KBBS
>!>http://kbbs.kbbsnet.com/
>!
>!>Commission on Global governance
>!>http://www.cgg.ch/
>!
>!>Zi*nist PIGS-israel
>!>http://rvik.ismennt.is/~elias/zion/zionrac07.html
>!
>!>Nizkor PIGS-Canada (holocaust trivia)
>!>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>!
>!>United States Holocaust Research Institute Reading Room
>!>http://www.ushmm.org/ushmm_ia.html
>!
>!>On Tactics USENET (j*w board)
>!>http://www.io.com/~wlp/aryan-page/cng/tac.html
>!
>!>ANTI-holocaust
>!>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/thoughtcrimes/9205HON.HTML
>!
>!>Matt Giwer’s World
>!>http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
And as I have pointed out there is only one very oblique reference to
the subject there.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:27 PDT 1996
Article: 42811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Lies Again (Re: A Relevant Quote About Nuremberg)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:13:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4p9un2$a9[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 12:15:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Thank you. That does explain the strange nature of the
># interrogations and why these gas chambers were only found
># in Eastern Europe, Russian justice.
>You know, you’re such a deranged, compulsive liar. You lie
>as if your life depended upon it. You’re the biggest liar
>I have seen in my life.
>It was posted here – *numerous* times – that gas chambers
>also existed in the areas that were not occupied by the
>Soviets, and that numerous SS-men testified extensively
>about the gassing in trials held by the Allies and the
>German Legal System, not by the Soviets.
>But this was explained to you, over and over again. Yet you
>continue to post your lie “gas chambers were only found
>in Eastern Europe”.
>You’re either mentally retarded, the biggest liar on the
>planet, totally senile, or a masochist who wants as many
>people as possible to think he’s a liar. Or maybe you’re
>trying to enter the Guinnes Book Of Records, for “most
>lies posted on the Internet”? What is it?
As you know there is no credibility to you claims there were gas
chambers found any place else. But you keep pretending there is. You
have exactly one “cleverly disguiesed as a shower room” solely because
someone stole the copper pipes.
Why would you do that?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:28 PDT 1996
Article: 42813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.akorn.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A true soap story
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:33:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 2:36:20 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Archive/File: pub/people/p/polevoi.boris danzig-soap-evidence
“That day the blinding artificial lights were turned off in the
courtroom,
plunging it almost into darkness. In the wavering dim light the
witness-box
was occupied by corpses…
The art of the courageous Soviet documentary film makers (some of whom
are no
longer alive) resurrected these corpses and brought them into the
courtroom.
It was as if they had risen from the grave and were hurling indisputable
evidence in the defendant’s faces. …
A bluish light flashed in the darkness, a beam of light cut across the
court-room and the following text appeared on the screen: ‘Documentary
Film
Evidence on the Atrocities of the German Fascist Invaders.’ A
documentary film
presented by the Chief Prosecutor from the USSR. … [Transcription
note: Filmed movie takes and stills of several other camps follow]
‘Danzig, a room in the Technological Institute, where the methods and
technology for the industrial utilization of human bodies were
elaborated,’
droned the commentator’s voice in the earphones.
We already knew about this. We had seen the exhibits and outputs of this
factory in court. Yet, it was still dreadful. You felt like closing your
eyes
tightly, jumping up and running out of the courtroom. But you had to
pass
through all the circles of this hell on earth, peer into the very heart
of
nazism and find out absolutely everything that it had brought mankind.
We saw a basement, again full of corpses that were stacked in neat piles
like
raw material in factory warehouses. In fact, this really was raw
material
graded according to the fat content. Severed heads were lying separately
in a
corner. They were waste material, unsuitable for soapmaking, or perhaps
nazi
science had failed to keep pace with the requirements of life and had
still
not found a way of industrially utilizing them. Then we saw dismembered
human
bodies that had been piled into vats to be boiled in an alkaline
solution. …”
(Polevoi, 108-184)
Work Cited
Polevoi, Boris. The Final Reckoning: Nuremberg Diaries.
Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1978 (English Edition)
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:29 PDT 1996
Article: 42819 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No answer
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:24:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 1:26:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
All I have asked for is the number of Jews who were subject to summary
execution solely because they were Jewish.
No one has been willing to give a number.
Am I the only one who finds it strange there is no such number?
From the partial answers I have over 3 million and not all the “death
camps” have reported in.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:30 PDT 1996
Article: 42820 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:13:55 GMT
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>>>>> All very interesting but you will remember that our California
>>>>>> chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the
>>>>>> bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. If you
>>>>>> want it to be something else I would suggest you take it up with
>>>>>> him, develop a consistent story, and get back to me.
>>>>
>>>>>Notice as that Giwer has been shown to be an ignorant fool without the
>>>>>simplest knowledge of chemistry- or how to use a dictionary -he runs away
>>>>>from his claim that bone ash (calcium phosphate) is NOT a fertilizer? Yep,
>>>>>he runs just like a whipped dog, tail tucked between his legs and yelping
>>>>>all the way!
>>>>
>>>> Sorry but you have just pointed out that the California chemist was not
>>>>telling the truth or perhaps you are not. He said it was one thing; you
>>>>claim it is something else. Who am I supposed to believe? Or are you
>>>>both lying?
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer cannot provide an example of Mr. Van Alstine and I making
>>>different claims about bone ash. Perhaps, that’s due to Mr. Giwer’s
>>>ignoarnce of freshman-level oxidation-reduction chemistry.
>>
>> Just a couple days ago you corrected me by saying that you were talking
>>about CaO2 vice CaO3. What are you claiming you were talking about now?
>Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of me claiming either of those species
>is present in bone ash.
Why should I? It was your clearly misleading implication.
CaO2 is atleast a conceivable compound:
>calcium superoxide. I would be very interested in any information Mr.
>Giwer can present on the existence of CaO3. I would find it even more
>interesting to see how Mr. Giwer assigns oxidation numbers to such a
>compound. No the only claim I made was that calcium was in its +2
>oxidation state, something that Mr. Giwer doesn’t seem to understand.
A total retraction of your previous implications. You are clearly
intent upon deception.
Go away and take your shit ass university with you. You taint it.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:30 PDT 1996
Article: 42831 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: missing files
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:06:47 GMT
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>>
>>>I’ve not follow all the exchange about missing files but the best
>>>I could remember Tom was complaining that some of his post were not there.
>>>I’ve check
>>>in my case also in the section people and it seems that they keep
>>>track of only a part of the post.
>>>Doesn’t seems to be related to a ‘choice’ however, their system
>>>seems to work sometimes and sometimes not, regardless of the contain.
>>
>> Their site does not work for shit.
> Mr. Giwer does not work for shit either. By his own words he is
>retired at age 51. Of course one could also call him unemployed.
Retired at 46, presently 50. Please keep your facts straight.
>> It is no more than a medium of self aggrandizement, expecting to
>>be honored guests at Sedar or some such.
>>
>> Remember the claim that regex was a search engine to understand
>>the technical ignorance of the people running the site.
> Why should I remember the claim? I have no desire to develop false
>memory syndrome.
You continue to defend the incompetent fool. She has shown no signs of
knowing what she is talking about. My best guess is that the title is
part of the payment for sleeping with one of the Gang of Six.
>> I know of one site where there grunt delights in signing his
>>messages VP.
>>
>> And for Nizkor, incompetants delight in signing themselves
>>co-webmasters.
>>
>>
>> Anyone who could read the help files could do better than they
>>are doing.
>>
>> Anyone knowing what they are doing would have written an indexing
>>program long ago.
> Being retired, or unemployed, as the case may be, with copious amounts
>of free time on his hands, perhaps Mr. Giwer would have done so.
They have not asked me for my price. What do you think they would offer
in return? As I have pointed out, I do not contribute to society, I
charge.
>> What we have at Nizkor is a bunch of unqualified amateurs
>>pretending to what they are not at the most basic level, that is,
>>being able to maintain a website.
>>
>> As HTML is so simple and the level of programming needed to deal
>>with text is so trivial one would have expected even rank
>>amatuers to have grasped it by now. But they have not.
> The files were originally on an FTP site with no thought of HTML. Of
>course the problem has been priorities and time. But what would a person
>without full-time employment know about that?
Gee. It appears you think I am the only person who has thought of
writing a program to add HTML tags. I did not realize you thought I was
so unique. But then they have not asked the price for that either.
> Of course time cannot be used by Mr. Giwer as an excuse for his
>execrable grasp of the English language. He has had fifty-one years
Eight more days before you can say 51.
to
>get it right or at least up to a sixth-grade level and has failed
>miserably. He has insisted that “tortable” and “paupacy” are words which
>should be understood by all, while unable to use a dictionary to discover
>the meaning of perfectly good English words such as “scantling” and
>”muffle” (in its sense as an oven chamber). Of course discerning meaning
>through context is quite beyond his limited abilities even though he
>insists others should manage it for his own neologisms.
> And of course there are such hilarious episodes as his offering, when
>asked to cite a story about screaming going on for “tens of minutes,” a
>testimony which said “after a few minutes there was silence.” No, I am
>not making this up.
Sorry but I have both cited and posted both stories. That you confuse
them is your problem.
> Rather than mock people for lacking time to convert files to HTML,
>perhaps Mr. Giwer would be better served using some of his copious free
>time to enroll in a remedial English class.
I am so impressed by that retort, I could just wither. Lets review the
bidding. On my site I have over a meg of my own text files. You don’t
have jack.
>> The website itself is testimony to their level of intellige
>>and ability.
> Mr. Giwer’s posts are testimony to his level of illiteracy and
>dishonesty. One need only look at his text quoted in this post to see his
>inability to form coherent, grammatically correct English sentences.
>Perhaps HTML is all that is within his powers. It is after all much
>simpler than English.
It is extremely simple. That is why I am curious that the HTML pro from
Dover for Nizkor consistantly gets it wrong.
> And he mocks people about kill files when he cannot even master a
>spell checker.
Rather you need to learn how to configure your newsreader. Or are you
newsreader challenged also?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:31 PDT 1996
Article: 42836 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:56:01 GMT
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> Another amazing description. Human ash constantly fell through
>> >> BUT the burning coke did not fall through the same grate. How do
>> >> you explain that? Why is it no one has found any bone crushing
>> >> equipment below the ovens? Perhaps Hoess was describing the
>> >> installation at Wolzek.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, continuing to wallow in his self-imposed ignorance,
>> >fails to realize that the furnaces used at Auschwitz did not burn coke in
>> >the muffles, but in the “generators” which were located at the back of the
>> >furnace and below the muffles. They were entirely seperate from the
>> >muffle, only venting hot combustion gases into the muffle. The coke ash
>> >was removed entirely seperate from the human remains.
>>
>> Then you should go to Nizkor and did up the picture of the ovens.
>> You will see the backs of them are against the wall and the
>> fireboxs to stoke them are in the front.
>And which pictures are these? The ones of the triple-muffle furnaces in
>Krema II? You say their “fireboxes” are in _front_? ROTFL! Oh, my, Giwer
>pulls a Moran! How droll.
Use the powerful search engine at Nizkor and find the pictures.
>The photos are of the front of the furnaces and show the corspe doors and
>the HUMAN ash removal doors, O’ Ignorant One. The Topf triple-nuffle
>furnace was an evolutionary design of the Topf double-muffle furnace. The
>only major difference in the design was the number of muffles and the
>positioning of the Rauchkanal under the furnace to connect to the
>Schornstein. The position of the Koksgenerator and Schact were the same.
I see. There was no place to put in the fuel. Very good. Perhaps they
just tossed a match onto the bodies.
>Giwer’s ignorance becomes painfully obvious when one simply looks at the
>Topf drawing No. D 57 253 (_Technique_, pp.108-109.) The coke-fired hearth
>(Koksgenerator) is at the BACK of the furnace, behind and below the
>muffles. The ash pit for the Koksgenerator is likewise at the back,
>behind and below the muffles. Only the large corpse loading doors and
>human the small ash removal doors are in the front of the furnace.
Tell it to Nizkor, not me. You need to straighten them out. You go
fight it out with them and get back to me when you folks have a
consistent story.
>> And of from these pictures the source of air for combustion is in
>> the front and there are no apparent chimney exhaust in the front,
>> it is not clear how the heat from your supposed buring in the
>> rear would have gotten to the oven rather than going directly up
>> the flue. Perhaps you could explain that?
>Certainly. First, the fresh air intakes for the Koksgenerator were at the
>back of the furnace. In addition, the drawing shows the Dru”ckluftgebla”se
>and the Druckluftleitung connecting to the furnace on the (right) side
>(facing the front of the furnace) towards the back. The The
>Dru”ckluftgebla”se injected fresh air into the muffles. The
>Einfu”hrungstu”r was opened to put corpses into the muffles. The
>Ascheennahmetu”r was opened to remove the human remains that fell through
>the chamotte to the bottom of the muffle.
Drawings are lovely aren’t they? Now go look at the picture and
discover the back of the ovens are up against the wall.
>As to the hot gases from the Koksgenerator getting into the muffle, well,
>its quite simple really. The Topf drawing also clearly shows that the
>Koksgenerator (one on each side of the back of the furnace) and the
>muffles were connected by small flues. The hot gases from the burning coke
>rose up, as hot gases are want to do, and swirled around the muffles, thus
>incinerating the corpses. (The hot gas flow is illustrated in the sketch
>on p.492 of _Technique_.) The draft from the exhaust fans near the
>smokestack then drew out the gases into the exhaust flue, which ran
>underneath the furnaces, and up and out the smokestack.
Are we back to the miracle Nazi lubricant that works at temperatures
greater than 800C?
But then anyone who believes people can be infected with cancer will
believe anything.
>> Do you have a picture different from theirs and if so, why have
>> you not sent it to them? You description is contrary to the
>> Nizkor picture. You appear to be making this up as you go along.
>The problem here is not with Nizkor or the description given in regards to
>the functioning of the furnaces. Rather, it is Giwer’s profound and
>self-indulgent ignorance on the topic. Not that being profoundly ignorant
>about anything has ever stilled Giwer’s tongue in the least! On the
>contrary, it seems to _increase_ the amount of stupid drivel that spills
>out of his mouth. One might even get the impression that Giwer is just
>makes up things as he goes along
>to argue about….
Go deal with Nizkor. When you have a consistent story, get back to me.
>> But then we still have the problem of finding the coke ashes
>> which also appear to have vanished without a trace.
>Is it a problem? Why? Because the few Sonderkommado who survived to give
>their testimonies didn’t comment on such mundane things like coke ashes,
>but instead on the more horrifying accounts of burning the victims of
>homicidal gassings and about _their_ ashes? Does Giwer find this suprising
>for some reason?
One does not “find” coke ashes or any kind of ashes by reading
fabricated reports. One finds them by physically finding them. You
have a very strange view of reality. No wonder you believe so many
fabulous things.
>How about the very little noticed and mundane fact that hundreds of
>shipments of coke were recieved at Auschwitz for the Kremas? Does Giwer
>find this to be a problem too? As if the _arrival_ of the coke wasn’t
>mentioned in riviting testimony it implies that quantities of coke weren’t
>burned in the Kremas? Or does Giwer suggest that there should still be
>mountains of unburnt coke somewhere at Auschwitz?
There was enough delivered to cover the recorded deaths. That is
correct. Or do you want to revive the self-combusting body routine?
>Where does Giwer suppose all the coke ashes for these shipments went? Were
>they taken by Nazi UFOs to the South Pole? Or, perhaps, was it something
>more mundane? Like they were transported to the IG Farben plant near
>Monowitz, where they made synthetic oil (and other distillates) from coal?
>Maybe they simply dumped it with the rest of the coke ash used in the
>refining process there?
You mean they shipped it back? How strange. Why would you suggest they
made this additional effort?
>[snip]
>> >Ho”ss, in his memoirs, stated that:
>>
>> >”During the period when the fires were kept continiously burning without a
>> >break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and
>> >crushed to powder. The ashes were taken to the Vistula [River], where they
>> >immediately dissolved and drifted away. The ashes taken from the burning
>> >pits near Bunker II and Crematory V were handled in the same way.” (_Death
>> >Dealer_, p.45.)
>>
>> Ashes are not soluable. They do not disolve in water. It has
>> already been agreed that they will sink. You keep believing the
>> fool who created these memoirs and you are going to continue to
>> believe all kinds of impossible things.
>Does Giwer claim that ash will not lose its macroscopic structure in
>water? Does Giwer also then claim that dirt clods will not “dissolve” in
>water? Does Giwer also claim that ash, like silt, cannot undergo coarse
>suspension in water?
You are the folks who are supporting the 30 minute cremation story which
has charred bones being ground up, not me. How do ground bones disolve
as you claim? What does that have to do with dirt clods?
You folks want a short cremation time and ground bones when it comes to
Krema capacity.
And now when you want the remains to magically disappear you want the
full two plus hour cremation time to get to fine ash.
Why don’t you just argue this out with yourself and get back to me.
Just deciede on one story, short times and ground bones or long times
and disappearing ashes. You can not have both stories at the same time.
>If so, it seems it is Giwer who likes to believe in “all kinds of
>impossible things.”
I would compare that to you believing mutually exclusive stories at the
same time.
>It would be well for Giwer to note that for ash or silt to “dissolve” in
>water it is not required that they undergo a chemical reaction. Nor does
>it mean that their constituent chemicals must be very miscable with water.
>(Calcium phosphate, for instance, is rather immiscable with water. Yet it
>will suspend as particulates, as will silt, in water.)
You must be the only person in the world who has either 1) never had any
experience with ashes or 2) see ashes disolve in water.
>> You will also note, this has nothing to do with the vanished bone
>> crushing equipment. So both the coke ashes and the bone crushing
>> equipment have vanished.
>And who claims the sieves and special mortars, etc. “vanished?” Why Giwer,
>of course! And his evidence that these sieves and mortars never existed
>is? That they were never used to sift out and pulverize bone fragments is?
Here you are right back with with your ground up bones and not ashes.
When are you going to decide which you truly believe?
>What? No evidence? Tsk tsk. Just a bunch of specious rhetoric? Hmm. One
>might get the impression that Giwer is just makes up things as he goes
>along
>to argue about….
Is there any credible reason why your arguing both for ashes and ground
bones at the same time?
>[snip]
>> >Clearly, the bones were pulverized outside of the Kremas, and thus not in
>> >or at the bottom of the furnaces.
>>
>> Tell that to your fellow holohugger. I thought it was ridiculous
>> also. My only problem is separating the stories into degrees of
>> ridiculousness.
>Indeed. Others also have the same problem with your drivel.
Tell it to them, not me. You are the folks who have so many truely true
contradictory stories often, as here, in the same message.
>> For example, are his grates and bone grinders more ridiculous
>> than your disolving bone fragments that pass thour a 1 cm mesh?
>> The former could have existed. The latter is clearly impossible.
>> You know, that physical law stuff you have such a problem with.
>Did Giwer just claim that the sieves passed _through_ the bone fragments?
>By George, he DID say that! ROTFL! Oh, my, will “wonders” never cease!
>Obviously, Giwer’s technical illiteracy extends to the use and operation
>of sieves! (Note: do NOT let this dweeb sift flour!)
>The sieves, O’ Technically Illiterate One, were used to _catch_ the bone
>fragments. To _seperate_ them out from the ashes so they could be
>_pulverized_ more efficiently in the special mortars.
So there were ground up, non-disolving remains rather than ash. But
since you are unfamiliar with sieves, the size means that anything
smaller than the mesh size is not ground up. And you want those to
disolve in water.
>> >> Dissolved? Is this special nazi chemistry? Sorry but all those
>> >> tons are still on the banks of the river but no one has ever
>> >> found them.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Obviously, Giwer has forgotten that water naturally flows
>> >from a location of higher gravitational potential energy to one of lower
>> >gravitational potential energy. Giwer has also apparantly forgotton that
>> >rivers consist of large amounts of water flowing from one potential energy
>> >state to another. In the case of the Vistula River that meant it, ands the
>> >ashes, eventually ended up in the Baltic Sea.
>>
>> You are neglecting to note that it was dumped in by the tons if
>> there is any truth to the claims of the cremation rate.
>Indeed. Using the 1.1 million death toll estimate and assuming an average
>of 6 lbs of ashes per victim (4-8 is the typical range),
Now you are back to ashes and ignoring your ground bones story.
we get 3,300 tons
>of ashes. Given that the vast majority of the victims were incinerated in
>the Kremas (and the burning pits) over a period of about 600 days, that
>would imply an average of about 5.5 tons of ashes being dumped in the
>Vistula River over the course of a day. (Ignoring that ashes where also
>disposed of in the Sola River, over farmlands, etc.) Is Giwer suggesting
>that the Vistula, Polands largest River, could not handle 5 tons of ashes
>a day? How about 10 tons? 20 tons?
I said they are still right where they were dumped as I do not subscribe
to your fantasy that ground bones can disolve. Even the Soviets didn’t
find them when they liberated the camp.
>> You are also failing to note that they were dumped on the banks by hand
>> (unless you can back a truck into river mud and are using dump
>> trucks and get it out a few feet.) The banks are where the water
>> flow is slowest.
>And where, exactly, was it said that the ashes where “dumped on the banks
>by hand?” Is this perhaps a bit of editorializing on Giwer’s part? Well,
>two can play at that game! How about the trucks simply traveled to one of
>the bridges that spanned the Vistula, stopped, and dumped the ashes over
>the side into the middle of the river?
So that is where they still are. What is your problem with that? But
no one found them.
What a concept. Of course, the
>ashes _could_ have very well been carried by hand from the trucks to the
>bank of the Vistula. But then it could have certainly been possble that
>the SS guards made sure they were dumped at a swifter part of the river.
>But thissimply illustrates that many ways to dispose of the ashes in the
>river _could_ have been used.
But is all depends upon you charred bone meal disolving. BTW, water
movement at the bottom of a river is nearly as slow at the shore. But
you know that.
>However, Ho”ss simply wrote that “the ashes were taken by truck to the
>Vistula [River], where they immediately dissolved and drifted away.”
>(_Death Dealer_, p.45.)
And you actually believe it. Truly amazing.
>> >Giwer also seems to have chosen to interpet the ashes “dissolving” as
>> >implying some kind of gross chemical reaction between Ca3(PO4)2 and H20
>> >rather than colloidal or coarse suspension. In fact, Ca3(PO4)2 itself
>> >appears to not be very miscable in water. But then neither are silicates
>> >and they, in the form of silt, suspend quite well in water, as can be seem
>> >by the alluvial plains at the mouths of rivers.
>>
>> Obviously the word disolving means disolving.
>Indeed. And when a clump of dirt is tossed into a stream it also
>”dissolves.” Not that the silicates in the dirt actually underwent any
>gross chemical reaction, mind you.
We are talking about either your bone meal or your bone ash, not dirt.
You will have to decide for yourself which story you wish to support.
>> You have also giving the maxium size with the sieve size.
>Indeed. The sieve size was 2/5 of an inch. This, of course, meant that any
>bone fragments larger than that wouldn’t pass through the sieve and were
>then collected to be pulverized. What does Giwer think the size of the
>bone fragments that were pulvcerized where?
Just under one centimeter of course. That is how sieves work. But you
know that.
>> And of course one can say it is over 50 years later. But at the time our
>> Soviet allies did not think this bit of evidence worth collecting, any
>> more than they collected any other evidence, as a nada, zilch.
>> All they collect was Katyn Woods type testimony.
>Really? Then perhaps Giwer would please explain the citations regarding
>APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127; as well as APMO, IZ-13/89. The invoices taken
>right after the war that describe the sieves, mortars, and the testimony
>of Szlama Dragon and regarding what they were used for. Is Giwer claiming
>that these documents and testimony were NOT taken right after the war?
>If so, where is Giwer’s evidence? What? No evidence? Hmm. One might get
>the impression that Giwer is just makes up things as he goes along
>to argue about….
Testimony is not evidence, despite what our resident Pennsylvania lawyer
says. We are looking for evidence, not fabulous stories.
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> You are the one claiming bone ash is phosphate fertilizer, not
>> >> me. Anyone with an education should know better than that.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: In truth, any person WITH an education knows how to find
>> >out that bone ash is basically calcium phosphate and that calcium
>> >phosphate has been used as a fertilizer. It is called looking in a
>> >dictionary. Obviously, Giwer sorely lacks an education. To whit:
>>
>> >_The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_:
>>
>> >bone ash – A white or creamy powder obtained by calcining bones.
>> >Essentially tricalcium phospate with some calcium carbonate. It is a
>> >characteristic constituent of English chinaware, mostly of bone china.
>>
>> >_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_:
>>
>> >bone ash – A white ash consisting primarily of tribasic calcium phosphate
>> >obtained by burning bones in air; used in cleaning jewelry and in some
>> >pottery.
>>
>> >calcium phosphate – 1. Any phosphate of calcium. 2. Any of the following
>> >three calcium orthophosphates, all of which are white or colorless in pure
>> >form: Ca(H2PO4)2 is used as a fertilizer, as a plastics stabilizer, and in
>> >baking powder, and is also know as acid calcium phosphate, calcium
>> >dihydrogen phosphate, monobasic calcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate;
>> >CaHPO4 is uded in pharmaceuticals, animal feeds, and toothpastes, and is
>> >also known as calcium hydrogen phosphate, dibasic calcium phosphate,
>> >dicalcium orthophosphate, dicalcium phosphate; Ca3(PO4)2 is used as a
>> >fertilizer, and is also known as tribasic calcium phosphate, tricalcium
>> >phosphate.
>>
>> All very interesting but you will remember that our California
>> chemist was playing his game of deception by stating that the
>> bone ash was an oxide of calcium, trioxide I believe. If you
>> want it to be something else I would suggest you take it up with
>> him, develop a consistent story, and get back to me.
>Notice as that Giwer has been shown to be an ignorant fool without the
>simplest knowledge of chemistry- or how to use a dictionary -he runs away
>from his claim that bone ash (calcium phosphate) is NOT a fertilizer? Yep,
>he runs just like a whipped dog, tail tucked between his legs and yelping
>all the way!
Sorry but you have just pointed out that the California chemist was not
telling the truth or perhaps you are not. He said it was one thing; you
claim it is something else. Who am I supposed to believe? Or are you
both lying?
Why don’t you two get together, come up with a single story, and get
back to me.
>> It is impossible for me to deal with multiple true truths at the
>> same time.
>Actually, it has become quite apparent that Giwer is unable to deal with
>_any_ truth at _any_ time!
>> Apparently you holohuggers are able to believe many mutually
>> exclusive things are true at the same time.
>Nooo, that Giwer’s gig. He can also espouse multiple lies at the same time.
Either or both of you and the chemist is lying.
>>I do not find that an enviable ability.
>Not unsuprising, considering that Giwer does it so _badly_! Well, at least
>he’s a _consistant_ incompetant.
Which is it going to be? bone meal or bone ash?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:32 PDT 1996
Article: 42840 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:11:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> The true truth depends only upon the story the huggers wants to tell.
>> You would think at some point they would be bright enough to refrain
>>from telling contradictory stories.
>The Giwer-troll, speaking for the umpteenth time from his position of
>profound willful ignorance, demonstrates that he is capable of
>controlling his keyboard sufficiently to post two sentences without a
>typo. Yet he continues to induce terminal boredom in all but the
>ignorant societal misfits whose admiration and approbation he so
>desparately seeks.
>You would think at some point he would be bright enough to realize
>that he would be much better off if he were to refrain from all his
>useless wastes of bandwidth.
>But, ever true to his motto, he leaves no post untrolled.
>Amazing, simply amazing!
You are the one who claimed regex was a search engine, dumb broad. One
could also presume you are fat, very fat, as in soap material.
From what I have read it appears you are laying this Jamie character to
get this “co-” reference. But it is clear you know only marginally less
than he.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:33 PDT 1996
Article: 42842 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:18:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>>[About gas chambers]
>>
>>># After the war they were only found in territories controlled by
>>># the Russians.
>>
>>>Liar.
>>
>>># And only the Russians found gas chambers.
>>
>>>Liar.
>>
>>>Why do you lie so much? Is it some kind of a disease?
>>
>> Are you still into your Dachau delousing chamber fantasy? That is the
>>only one you folks have left and it is agreed it was a delousing chamber
>>these days. You cling to “it was some other building” but there never
>>appears to be any evidence of it. All there is going for it is the
>>fierce assertions of the holohuggers.
> Obviously you are not up on current events. David Cole is a
>revisionist, but even he now accepts that there was a homicidal gas
>chamber at Natzweiler. For his efforts, Faurisson excommunicated him.
>You know how it is with religious fanatics.
I am so impressed. One more place not discovered in 1945 but discovered
decades later. I have no idea how he is and could care less.
Give it up. They were not discovered at the time, they can not be
rediscovered later.
All that stolen copper plumbing proves nothing.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:34 PDT 1996
Article: 42843 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:21:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:389455 alt.politics.libertarian:173837 alt.politics.democrats.d:86236 alt.politics.usa.republican:214748 alt.politics.usa.congress:43296 alt.politics.reform:74859 alt.activism:53440 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320454 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:24757 alt.revisionism:42843
[email protected] (Juergen Langowski) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>>>>>camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>>>>>day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>>>>>month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>>>>>malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>>>>>systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>>>>
>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>rate.
>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of the
>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation that
>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>construction of crematoria.
>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered. I have
>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.
>> Remember it was all Soviet information and they in the person of Rudenko
>>were willing to lie in an attempt to get a conviction.
>Well, Mr. Giwer, concerning the existence of mass graves, I have a
>German source for you.
>Since you are able to judge translations, I take it you are able to
>read this text in the original language.
> Noch im Sommer 1942 wurden die Leichen
> in die Massengräber gebracht. Erst Ende des
> Sommers fingen wir an mit der Verbrennung;
> zuerst auf einem Holzstoß mit ca. 2000 Leichen,
> nachher in den Gruben mit den wieder freigelegten
> Leichen aus der früheren Zeit.[1]
>It’s your turn now, Mr. Giwer. Please translate this quote for the
>convenience of those who can’t read German.
>Then we’ll discuss your translation, and then we’ll discuss what is
>written in this text.
>A hint – “Massengräber” is German for “mass graves”.
>A second hint – the first sentence should not read: “In the summer of
>1942 there were no mass graves.”
That is about as cute as it is stupid. Would you like to try for idiot
of the year award?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 11:58:25 PDT 1996
Article: 42848 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:51:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4oj8n[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4p3v[email protected]> <4p4t[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>: >He agreed that using a more general definition of acid — which, indeed,
>: >has proven too subtle for you — CO2 gas is an acid too. I gave an
>: >example of a chemical reaction (CaO + CO2 -> CaCO3) in which CO2 *gas*
>: >acts as an acid,
>: And you actually expect people to believe that reaction will
>: occur at STP without an intermediary.
>Where did I say that the above reaction would occur at STP? All I said
>is that in the above reaction, CO2 is an acid, which statement you
>have yet to disprove.
Do you really think you only have to convince your fellow holohuggers of
this fabrication of yours?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 11:58:27 PDT 1996
Article: 42851 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:57:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > The judgment of the acquittal in the published records of the IMT. They
>> >are rather easy to find. For the umteenth time – DO YOUR OWN DAMN
>> >RESEARCH.
>>
>> Excuse me, but I posted with IMT references. I am simply
>> interested in your source.
> You are a liar. You did not post the judgment. You posted an exhibit
>number.
So you claim to have researched it all. Post it.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 12:29:27 PDT 1996
Article: 42854 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:20:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>Reply VanAlstine part 2
>>> But , if we look at the Schematic Diagram of the
>>> so-called Introduction Column on page 487 of Pressac,
>>> we come upon another surprise! Oddly enough, the column doesn’t >have
>any
>>> attachment points at the bottom either, no bolt holes, straps, or
>>>rivets!
>> Indeed, the sketch doesn’t show how the column was anchored to >the
>floor. Neither does it show the column passing throught the >roof of the
>L.Keller. What it shows is a simplistic rendering of the >fixed wire mesh
>column and the removeablecore.
> Actually, it is a fairly detailed description giving the
>size and type of material used in the construction, the net,
>the type of tubing use, as well as the dimensions of the
>”pillar”.
>This otherwise detailed description avoided the embarassing
>but important question: How did the darn thing stay in place?
> >The simple act of them passing through the roof, in combination >that
>they _were_
>>anchored to the floor, constrained them against any movement >whatsoever.
>That’s a pretty powerful statement, partner. You’re talking
>”anchored”. Why don’t you zip on down to Orchard Supply
>again and pick yourself up a 3 meter long strip of angle
>iron just like the one they used in your pillar. Bolt it to the floor.
>Go back across the room and then run
>into the darn thing, preferably head down. Do this three or
>four times. Are you still an Exterminationist? If so, look
>at the bolts. I’ll bet you 50 cents that they are sprung.
>If you are looking for any support from the roof, then you are
>going to have to have a very, very tight fit.
>To say that this unsupported structure was
>”constrained them against any movement whatsoever”
>is dogmatic prevarication.
It may not be prevarication, simply ignorance. I was once in a
design review meeting where a very highly qualified ME said he
was going to remove a 150 power supply from the back of the
cabinet for replacement, flanked by cabinets without enough
clearance on either side.
When asked how he would get it out he pantomimed lifting it
straight up and passing it over the top. At which point he
paused, laughed and suggested front removal as a design change.
What is lacking here is the laughing and changing the position.
After all, when you are on a mission from god …
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 13:22:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42859 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:56:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> Matt Giwer
>> >>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
>> >>> > like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>> >>> > shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
>> >>> > pressures?
>> >>>
>> >>> Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
>> >>> Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here.
>> >>> That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also
>> >>> called a conspiracy.
>> >
>> > Statement of fact, little one. There was in fact harrassment of
>> >a service provider by the holohuggers.
>>
>> One could also make a case that there was harrassment of two service
>> providers by the Giwer: Internet Direct and Volant Turnpike. Giwer had
>> Rack Jite’s web pages censored _before_ he was bounced from Combase.
>More importantly — the “Nizkor leaders” and the “holohuggers” had
>nothing to do with this “voice and email harrassment,” this
>”censorship,” this “shut[ting] up some of the guys they don’t like,”
>this “pressures,” this “harrassment of a service provider.”
>All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.
Such it the claim of the Nizkor Gang of Six. It is questionable, given
the other tactics of the gang, that there is any credibility to the
denial. Gee, I have discovered deniers. Surprise, surprise.
>In other words, I am hereby calling Giwer a liar
For saying what? It appears go be another of the baseless charges of
the Gang of Six.
(and I’m accusing
>Beaulieu of acting leading questions without really knowing what he’s
>talking about).
>If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post, publicly,
>his proof that the “Nizkor leaders” and/or the “holohuggers” have done
>anything like what he has claimed. I won’t read it — I delete all
>Giwer’s posts unread and see no reason to change this practice — but
>I’m sure friendly Usenetters will be sure to email me a copy of such
>”proof.” If it really would be proof, that is.
I have made no such claim. So you could never read such a claim you
brainless fool.
>Of course, he has no proof, so he will find it difficult to do this.
You are truly an idiot to accuse me of something I did not say.
>The closest thing he has is his claim that Gordon McFee is really
>”Marduk,” who allegedly harrassed Mr. Giwer’s previous service provider.
>Mr. Giwer’s claim has been denied by everyone involved: Mr. McFee,
>”Marduk,” and most importantly an administrator at “Marduk”‘s service
>provider, who actually offered to write a testimonial to that effect!
Gee, just how many were involved in that harrassment? Who were the
conspirators?
But it appears you are involving his service provider in the conspiracy
as Marduk posted matters discussed in a phone conversation between CEOs
only a couple hours after the conversation. You appear to be accusing
someone of lying here. Which shall it be?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 13:22:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42861 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 04:09:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) has this sig:
> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.
>I commented:
> An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
> an expert to begin with.
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) loses it completely:
> You refuse to tell what truth is. Why is that?
>In which fantasy of Mr. Giwer’s did I “refuse to tell what truth is?”
I must have missed your answers.
What is truth?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 19:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 42871 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 19:00:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Nele Abels
>[Giwer wrote]
>>>Hello…have we gone away? Are we perhaps insulted? Or is it possible that we don’t have
>>>any answer Mr. “master-historian” Giwer?
>> It is also someone who has never read anything on my website.
>>Beyond that, it isn’t a bad post.
>Well, the possibility that you have no answer against my post has
>certainly
>not read anything on your webside, Mr. Giwer, that is true. But it was
>only my humble self that claimed this little feat. (BTW I am flattered
>that you think my post not being bad – if you mean me, this is not quite
>clear…) And here is the proof:
>In “Our Liberal Fascists” Paragraph 1, Mr. Master-Historian Giwer wrote:
> A fascist is a Marxist who has learned that it is not necessary
> to actually have public ownership of business as long as they
> have complete control of business.
>Whoa! Finally a condensed definition of fascism. But, wait a moment, what
>about fascist nationalism vs. Marxist internationalism, what about the
>fascist concept of superior races? Mmmh… But let’s read on.
The superior race gimmick was an idea of Nazism. It was not part of
Fascism. The closest Mussolini got to it was waxing eloquent on the
glories of the Roman Empire. And besides, do you really think the Roman
nose would pass Aryan muster?
I was addressing the thing the two had in common, state control of the
economy. The purpose of doing so was to shatter the myth that state
ownership is a requirement of Marxism.
In some other article (maybe in that one) you will also find the
observation that the antagonism between the Nazis and the Bolsheviks was
simply another example of the warring brands of Marxism. It was hardly
any different from the Leninist-Trotskyite division.
All of these groups did expect to be the wave of the future and each
group intended to be in charge when the future arrived.
> There is no question that both Mussolini and Hitler considered
> themselves practical Marxists. There exist sufficient quotations
> from their own words and writings to support that contention.
>And:
> Nor is there one social idea of Mussolini and Hitler they did not
> admit came from Marxism. (Paragraph 19)
>Needless to say, Giwer gives not a single proof. (Well, did you seriously
>expect something different? :)) Of course, there is no proof for his
>inane clame. Hitler sees Marxism synonymous to “Jewry”. In “Mein Kampf”
>he calls the German communists “Bolschewistische Kampftruppen des
>internationalen Weltfinanzjudentums”, “Bolshevist stormtroopers of the
>international world-finance Jewry”. As an explanation for our 163IQ
>readers I should perhaps add that Hitler was antisemite. His explanation
>for the success of the socialists in the eastern German industrial areas
>is the infection of large parts of the population with syphilis. (He
>seems strangely obsessed with that topic;>)
>Come on, Giwer, give one of your “sufficient quotations”. Or do you
>only invent your facts as they fit? Or could it be that we are caught
>lying again, eh? Or are IQ163 not sufficient to retrace your “book of
>quotations” in your mile-long shelves. Oh, I forgot, you throw away your
>books after you have read them, that must be the explanation…
Proof is not expected in the op-ed format. It is much too short for
that.
The objective of the piece was to point out the origins of state control
of the economy while leaving ownership in private hands thus making
business subordinate to the political interests of the state.
Mussolini defined Fascism for the official encyclopedia as “the melding
of government and business combined with belligerant nationalism.” He
also told close associates that he named it Fascism because of the
Catholic Church’s adamant opposition to Marxism.
The following are some of Hitler’s comments upon the subject.
–Hitler to Rauschning
The party is all-embracing. It rules our lives in all their
breadth and depth. We must therefore develop branches of the
party in which the whole of individual life will be reflected.
Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be
regulated by the party as the representative of the general good.
There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual
belongs to himself. This is Socialism–not such trifles as the
private possession of the means of production.
“Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a
discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or
factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the
State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless
whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is
unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper….”
“Private property” as conceived under the liberalistic economic
order was a reversal of the true concept of property. This
“private property” represented the right of the individual to
manage and to speculate with inherited or acquired property as he
pleased, without regard for the
“I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate
to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have
really put into practice what these peddlers and pen-pushers have
timidly begun…. I had only to develop logically what Social
Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize
its evolution within the framework of democracy. National
Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken
its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order.”
=====
I presume this is out of the way.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 19:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 42874 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer caught lying – again…
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 19:12:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Nele Abels
>Giwer caught lying – again…
>It all started with the discussion whether female members of the SS
>existed. Giwer contributed his usual part by denying each and everything.
>I replied with some proofs. Giwer took a stand on the position that the
>female members listed did not meet the requirements of “formal” members
>and that the NS ideology prohibited women to have such a position anyway.
I was told they were hired but were not members. Who are you
disagreeing with?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 42882 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holohugger needed
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:29:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Would one of you holohuggers explain to Erik Marksberry that there were
not 5.2M bodies found and that no one expects to find 5.2M bodies?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42883 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:32:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plfq[email protected]> <4pl[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>>see?
>>
>>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>>blue silica gel?
>>
>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>>once.)
>Is it Mr. Giwer’s assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>Yes or no?
I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust
stories. If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don’t
forget the pea sized silica gel.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 42886 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:53:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> >The Germans operated many Death Camps. Assuming their were only 5 such
>> >camps (and actually there were more) that killed only 1,000 each per
>> >day, 7 days per week, that would easily come to more than 125,000 per
>> >month. Many died in concentration camps of “natural” causes such as
>> >malnutrition, influenza, diptheria, etc.; and thousands were
>> >systematically executed “on the spot” in Poland and the Soviet Union.
>>
>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>> rate.
>What was the crematoria capacity available to the Nazis , Giwer?
>What was the _incineration_ capacity available to the Nazis, Giwer?
>BTW, don’t forget to provide verifiable sources for your claims.
To all the above, not enough. This is to a mantra chanting idiot like
all the holohugging and mantra chanting brain dead idiots who can not
see past the war propaganda.
>[Giwer-drivel snipped]
>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
>sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
>apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Brain dead mantra completed.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 42887 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Fritsch was a fraud
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:17:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 269
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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For those seeing this for the first time, consider for a moment the
impact of essentially the same story with the details changed and a
different set of fabulous details thrown in. It reads like the
differing biblical recountings of the birth of Christ.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another lovely story
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT
Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed the
falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point of
view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch
having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly
true story of the same first use.
It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it.
That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the URL
so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site of
this alternate reality true truth.
=====
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure
proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived
in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps
for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a shot
in
the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to
the
Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that
wore on
the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however,
an SS
officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser
=====
Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from
Fritsch?
=====
noticed that one of his
companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was
instantly
knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that
was
used as a disinfectant.
=====
Instantly “knocked out.” One has to wonder just what it was that
this person “whiffed”. It is also of note that here it is used
as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant.
=====
To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering
the
half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser
had
several cans of the blue pellets,
=====
Note the blue kitty litter. How strange.
=====
which vaporize when exposed to
air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting
execution.
=====
Even more than the impossible number than the Nizkor story stuffs into
the room.
=====
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies
were
met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had locked
themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each
other’s
hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their
clothes
had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated
when
the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp.
59,
112, 134.)
=====
Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the
Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to
be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse
into gelatinous blobs.
Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is what
really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised?
But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it comes
>from seeing a person “knocked out” from one whiff. Then we note
that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to recover
consciousness before dying and go through the hair pulling and
finger biting routine.
But this is a true story that Nizkor swears to as being gospel.
Is there anyone out there who still denies that Nizkor is
supporting absolute nonsense? Lying through their collective
teeth that is?
===========
===========
And here the Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ version of the same story.
===
Breitman offers the following as background information to the
development of Zyklon B as a killing device, and (more specifically)
to the early use to which Block 11 was put:
Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and
other POW’s who were subject to liquidation. Ho”ss’s men had
shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3
Ho”ss’s enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmfu”hrer Fritsch
=====
Here we have Fritsch rather than Breitweiser.
=====
thought of an expedient new method based on the camp’s own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow to get rid of them.
=====
Here we have the discovery based upon calling in a professional
fumigation company and NOT using Zyklon B on their own.
=====
Two experts had fumigated
particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a
crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when
exposed to the air. (Ho”ss, “Commandant of Auschwitz,” 175.
Interrogation of Ho”ss, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)
=====
Here we have a non-existant crystalline form (at room temperature)
rather than the pellet form in the non-existant blue color.
=====
On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed
five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from
the camp hospital into an underground detention cell.
=====
You will notice above that it was a 1000 people into the same cell but
even this lower number do not fit.
=====
Then the
windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks
opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue
chalk pellets about the size of peas,
=====
Now we are back to a description that is more correct save that it is
still a color that does not occur.
=====
creating a cloud of poison
gas.
=====
And of course it does not produce clouds.
=====
After they left, the doors were sealed.(Ho”ss, Commandant
at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, “Auschwitz,” in
Ja”ckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Ho”ss
wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what
he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he
was away on a business trip.
=====
Note the other story has no checking for two days.
=====
Other sources indicate that even
the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to
release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When Ho”ss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful
experiment. On Eichmann’s next visit to Auschwitz, Ho”ss told
him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to
Ho”ss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant
farmstead for extermination.(Ho”ss, Commandant, 175. From the
History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)
==================
==================
So here we have two different stories diverging markedly in details in
some places, and in others repeating the same impossible to observe
detail (the blue color.) In one story we have the clearly fabulous
gelatinous mass story, but not found in the other.
We have two different people getting the idea to use it but in the first
case his companions are charged with delousing and in the second case
professional fumigators are brought in.
In one story it is 1000 Russians. In the other case we have 750-850
Russians and sick people.
In one case the pellets are dropped into the room, in the other men
wearing gas masks are walking around in the room to spread it.
In neither case is the room large enough to hold even the lowest number
of people.
In the first story there is a very strange pathology of cyanide
poisoning (instantly knocked out but recovering later for the hair
pulling and finger biting) while in the latter, they may or may not have
died immediately.
In the former story the impossible gelatinous blobs are included while
the latter does not include them.
Getting back to the biblical analogy, such side by side comparisons of
events in the life of Christ are regularly used to demonstrate that
writers of the gospels did not witness the events they describe. To
bible believing Christians it is taken as a sign that the gospels were
inspired by god and that different truths are meant to be told. They
take it as confirmation of the truth of the gospels. Or they simply
ignore the conflicts.
Does anyone want to bet which way the holohuggers will respond?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:03 PDT 1996
Article: 42888 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:31:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pl9rg[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 3:34:33 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>## Obviously you are not up on current events. David Cole is a
>## revisionist, but even he now accepts that there was a homicidal gas
>## chamber at Natzweiler. For his efforts, Faurisson excommunicated
>## him. You know how it is with religious fanatics.
># I am so impressed. One more place not discovered in 1945 but
># discovered decades later.
>No, you miserable imbecile. It *was* discovered in 1945, and a few
>people – incuding Joseph Kramer – testified about the gassing there
And the evidence was what? Stolen copper pipes?
>(see also the testimony of Magnus Wochner I posted yesterday).
I have seen a lot of what you have posted as testimony but you are
always woefully short on evidence. And of course it is the fabulous
details in so much of the testimony that take away from their
credibility.
>Cole is a young “revisionist scholar” who, as Mike Stein noted,
>agrees that gassing took place there. As Mike added, Faurisson
>denounced him for this. Faurisson knows he cannot allow any
>of the holy axioms of “revisionism” to be violated.
What does he have to do with evidence?
># I have no idea how he is and could care less.
>We figured out a long time ago that you know nothing.
I know of two “first use of Zyklon B” stories. How many do you know?
># Give it up. They were not discovered at the time, they can
># not be rediscovered later.
>Not only is this statement untrue in principle, the gas
>chamber *was* discovered at the time.
Got any pictures of it?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42889 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:18:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4nlrc2$agn@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>[About the evaporation period of the HCN from Zyklon]
># The measurements I can come up with are 32 hours for 5C and 6
># hours for 30C for complete outgassing (the time when the windows
># can be opened and the stuff safely disposed of) which covers about
># the range of temperature usage short of winter in an unheated building.
>You’re apparently way, way off. Dr. Roessler was kind enough to
>send me a 1941 paper about the evaporation period, at temperatures
>far lower than those you mention. I’ll soon have the whole thing
>translated and post it.
Prior to the turn of the century?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42905 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:59:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42905 sci.chem:37092
[email protected] (Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>[ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>….
>>What everyone, I believe, knows by now is that Giwer is ignorant and full
>>of bullshit! This can readily be seen by his above claim that the carrier
>>for Zyklon B could not be silica gel because it was diatomite. Indeed the
>>the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite is?
>>Obviously not!
>>diatomite – A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
>>hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent… (_The
>>Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
>>Hmmm, “hydrated silicia.” Sure sounds a lot like “silica gel” to me!
>Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil absorption
>capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>
>No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr. I’m sure your
>debate is very impt. to you, but posting gifs to a sci.* discussion group
>is still not justified. Perhaps you could stay in alt.revisionism…
>Please…
> Bruce Hamilton
Nothing personal here but you are making the mistake fo assuming the
holohuggers care in the least about facts. They are working so very
hard to preserve fabricated testimony. That is all they have to hang
their hat on.
But thank you for your time in this matter. Given the experiencd in
alt.revisionism it it good to see there are still some honest chemist in
the world as opposed to what UC and Israel is turning out.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:05 PDT 1996
Article: 42912 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (1/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 03:35:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42912 sci.chem:37094
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>BEGIN — Cut Here — cut here
>begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
Next time …
1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
2) Post a color picture.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42915 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:43:46 GMT
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>: >Is this the same Prince Myshkin who said that the proper response to
>: >discrimination against Blacks in the South was boycotting those
>: >businesses that discriminated?
>: I do not remember saying that any time recently. But at least you
>: agree the Nazis were all talk when it came to Jews until after the boycott was
>: organized against the entire country in the middle of the Depression.
>I never said anything of the sort, and anyone who can read can look up
>the appropriate sections of Dawidowicz and Hilberg to see that your
>second sentence is not true.
You should have agreed to it because it is true. You know you can not
name one act of anti-semitism by the Nazis other than rhetoric prior to
the economic boycott declared by Jewish organizations.
If you really think the second sentence is untrue you will be able to
provide dates and actions but you will not do so because there were
none.
>As for the second sentence above: I take it then that you agree that the
>proper response to discrimination against Blacks in the Sourth should
>have been limited to boycotting those businesses that discriminated
>against them.
What is your problem with that? Non-violent, is it not?
>: >: >Or did it begin with the invasion of Russia,
>: >: >when the Einsatzgruppen began executing Jews en masse?
>: >: How many?
>: >: What is the number?
>: >The number is over a million, as reported by the Einsatzgruppen themselves.
>: Over a million is not good enough. I want a fixed number or number
>: range that no one will seriously disagree with. And that number needs
>: be the total number of directly exterminated, not those that are
>: accounted for by camp conditions.
>The Einsatzgruppen didn’t put anyone in camps.
I never said they did. What is your point?
hey sent back reports
>saying “today, we killed xxx number of people.” The fixed number could
>be arrived at by adding up the totals of these reports. I can’t
>remember the exact number offhand (I believe it’s in Hilberg), but no
>one would disagree with a number of 1 – 1.3 million directly murdered
>by the Einsatzgruppen. Now you have what you want, but I have this
>funny feeling that it won’t satisfy you.
Obviously you can not provide a number. Go away until you can do so.
It is quite amazing that no holohugger can provide such a number.
>: >You might try reading the transcript of the “Einsatzgruppen trial,” in
>: >which the evidence against the defendants consisted *solely* of those
>: >reports — no eyewitness testimony. You might also try explaining why
>: >none of the defendants claimed that the reports were forged or exaggerated
>: >(of course, if they were exaggerated, then it’s hard to argue that there
>: >wasn’t a policy of mass extermination, but I digress). Rather, the
>: >defendants took the position that they were “only following orders.”
>: What is the link to the transcript?
>What is the link of *what* to the transcript? You wanted a number that
>no one would disagree with. Such a number is given in the transcript
>of the trial, and the defendants themselves (i.e. the perpetrators of
>the crime) did not claim that the number was exaggerated. In addition,
>the Einsatzgruppen trial matches your criterion in the sense that there
>were no eyewitnesses called to testify — the defendants were convicted
>solely on the evidence of reports that they admitted they had written.
As there is no such number, why do you not clearly state there is no
such number? Is that really too hard for you to admit?
>: >And when *are* we going to see that translation of the Hitler quote?
>: Whenever someone gets around to translating it.
>I take this as an admission that you can’t read German, despite your
>rather pathetic attempts to explain away “Gaswagen” and “Leichenkeller.”
Give it up, Schatzie. You are a Hoaxster for the Holocaust.
But then, where is the translation?
You must remember the last time this translation game was played it was
the Wannsee Protocol and the claim was that it was about gassing as the
Final Solution. When the english was made available that lie was
quickly exposed.
You holohuggers are all alike. You will lie to preserve your gassing
fantasy.
Sorry about that but it is the only trait that makes you folks
identifiable.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42916 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The latest insanity from a gang member
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:46:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bc3b08.5997[email protected]> <4phvsj$6k[email protected]> <4pin1o$7r[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bdc654.470151[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:49:18 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:01:53 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:09:33 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>Did
>>>>>it begin when “being Jewish” was officially described as
>>>>>sufficient rationale for being mentally ill, and thus eligible
>>>>>for “euthanasia?”
>>>>
>>>> If you have a URL for this, fine. Otherwise, please stop making
>>>>us such nonsense. Someone might be dumb enough to believe you.
>>
>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/hartheim/hartheim.001
>>
>>>For those not as pathologically afraid of reading books as Mr. Giwer,
>>>there is a fine summary of the Nazi euthansia program in
>>
>> Euthanasia has been an open debate in western society as long as there
>>has been western society. It is an open secret. It is just the
>>Kavorkians who are making the headlines. But you will note the rich and
>>famous like Jackie Kennedy just happen to die with their families around
>>them.
>I take it that, by clipping my reference to it, you have conceded the
>point that the Nazis did indeed define being a Jew as a reason to be
>euthanized.
And of course you are now making it your mission in life to claim That I
clip everything that makes your case as proof of your case.
But then, as you know and you can post your original message side by
side with this message to prove I did such a thing but of course you
will not because I did not.
You are a true Hoaxster for the Holocaust.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42918 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:45:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Are you still into your Dachau delousing chamber fantasy?
>No, I’m talking about the Dachau gas chamber. The one Rascher suggested
>in his letter to Himmler to use for “testing combat gases on humans”.
Suggested to use? How about posting the translation of this letter or
the URL to same. Always interested in reading about such things.
>And the gas chambers in other camps inside the “Old Reich” (Germany
>proper and Austria), which were not occupied by the Soviets.
URLs please.
The Nizkor “search engine” didn’t appear to find anything about them.
># That is the only one you folks have left
>Liar. There were gas chambers in other camps in the “Old Reich”.
URLs.
># and it is agreed it was a delousing chamber these days.
>Liar. You’re simply lying. It’s a disease; you can’t stop, right?
You crap about oily exhaust was the truth?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 06:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42924 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:12:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:35:51 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>”R. Goforth”
>>
>>>> > Excuse me but not even the holohuggers (save for the strangest
>>>> >ones) will claim 12 million were killed in camps.
>>
>>>The figure of 11-12 million is correct. There were about 6 million Jews
>>>killed, the remaining 5-6 million were Roma (Gypsies), communists, the
>>>mentally ill, disabled people, different slavic groups (considered
>>>sub-human), assorted european tribes exterminated by allies of the Nazis
>>>(groups like the Croats used the Nazi occupation to carry out their own
>>>genocidal acts) and vasrious other political undesirables.
>>
>>>In addition, around 20 million Soviet citizens died fighting off the Axis
>>>forces (from battle, disease, starvation).
>>
>> In CAMPS.
>The battles in WWII between the Russians and the Nazis were fought in
>camps Matt?
What does that have to do with the subject under discussion? Do you
have the least idea what the subject is?
The holohuggers corrected me when I said something very similar with the
same correction I am making now. If you disagree with the correction
you have a lot of people to deal with besides me.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 07:10:47 PDT 1996
Article: 42928 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:33:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>Chuck Ferree
>>Chuck Ferree writes:
>>I’ll repeat! The Nazis established Dachau, long before the war
>>started. So if you don’t believe this, you are not only more stupid
>>that we all think you are, you’re also too fucking lazy to check it
>>out.
>Actually I can’t describe how silly and stupid I think Matt Giwer is.
>It is based on what he posts here. Of course, on-line behavior and
>personality is sometimes different from those real people we meet on
>the street. I do hope that Mr. Giwer is a different soul in reality.
I had thought you would know better than Ferree but it appears you need
the SWC to educate you also. Where do you see it being established as a
camp for Jews as he stated? The SWC mentions them as an afterthought
and clearly indicates they were far from the primary purpose of the camp
at the time. In fact it is clear there were no Jews sent there solely
for being Jews.
From the Q&A
13. When was the first concentration camp established and who
were the first inmates?
Answer: The first concentration camp, Dachau, opened on March 22,
1933. The camp’s first inmates were primarily political
prisoners (e.g. Communists or Social Democrats); habitual
criminals; homosexuals; Jehovah’s Witnesses; and “anti-socials”
(beggars, vagrants, hawkers). Others considered problematic by
the Nazis (e.g. Jewish writers and journalists, lawyers,
unpopular industrialists, and political officials) were also
included.
When are you folks going to learn what you are talking about?
You will also notice this was the day after the well known newspaper
coverage of the economic boycott by many world Jewish organizations
against Germany. Setting up a camp in 24 hours can hardly be a response
to the boycott.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42942 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:28:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> Who? Holohuggers reading this conference of course. I posted it when
>> it happened. The most common response was that it couldn’t happen to a
>> nicer guy, right from named holohuggers here. >
>> But you remember that.
> How can anybody remember what did not happen. Several people
>deplored it. The most negative comment about you was, that many were convinced
>it did not happen. Nobody condoned it.
> Be a mensch for once in your miserable life.
Of course only a holohugger would deny what is on Dejanews.
Or are you trying to set a new standard for an officer of the court?
You are aware that your private life is open to the scrutiny of the
court are you not?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 42946 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; TEN million dead
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 05:15:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Matt Carey
>Sorry to bandstand here, but this is a personal bug I have:
>The Holocaust, as I was taught, Killed 10 Million people. 6 million were
>jews, the rest were other “udesirables” (e.g. gypsies, homosexuals, the
>chronically unemplyed….). Whenever we forget those 4 million, we do an
>emense disservice–exactly the sort of disservice that we are trying to
>avoid with holocaust rememberance.
True but the holocaust is Jews only. You should not forget that.
And we have already discovered that there were 250,000 acts of
individual heroism to save Jews that should not be emphasized so as to
distort in desired image of the holocaust.
The purpose of this to control the way in which the holocaust is viewed.
It is not history the holohuggers want to control but the way history is
viewed. It is like Britain selectively declaring war on Germany but not
on Russia. They want you to view it as a requirement of a mutual
defense pact with Poland and to ignore the selective requirement.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 42951 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:20:41 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>[snip]
>> >The Zyklon B columns, in spite of Giwer’s ignorant protests, were not
>> >free-standing. They were anchored to the floor. This obviously would
>> >immobilize the columns in the vertical axis and the bottom of the columns
>> >in the horzontal plane. The top of the columns also passed through the
>> >concrete roof, which would then act as a collar on the top of the column,
>> >also immobilizing it in the horizontal plane.
>>
>>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming/wiremesh..jpg
Been there, done that, there is no such thing on the drawiong. Do you
want it posted here to prove my statement?
>> And for what it is worth, this French drawing has no such anchor or
>> anchoring attachment as you very clearly state there was. Are you
>> certain you are not making this up?
>Quite certain. If Giwer had paid the slightest attention to my past
>description of the Zyklon B introduction columns he would have noticed
>that I cited Dr. Piper’s description in _Anantomy_ (p.167) that
>specifically states they were anchored to the floor. Perhaps if Giwer
>cracked open the book and read the description he would be so dumbstruck
>all the time?
So you cited a fiction writer.
Is that to excuse you?
Show me HIS source of the claim to anchors or drop this nonsense.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42953 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Jews = Communism. Read it and weep from U.S. Archives
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:15:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Kevin Alfred Strom
>Harry Katz wrote:
>> …
>>
>> Marx was no kind of Jew. The only people who insist he was a Jew are
>> racists who believe that Jewishness is in our genes and inheritable….
>>
>By your definition, then, Dr. Frederick Lachman, Executive Editor of the
>_Enclyclopedia Judaica_, was a racist who believes that Jewishness is in
>our genes and inheritable?
>Are the other Jewish reference works, which cite famous Communists such
>as Herbert Aptheker (presumably an atheist by religion) as Jews — are
>they also edited by “racists”?
>The term “half-Jewish” is commonplace, among both Jews and non-Jews. If
>there is no genetic component to Jewishness, then how do you account for
>the pervasiveness of this concept among many Jews?
>How do you account for the belief among many Jews that the offspring of a
>Jewish mother is by definition a Jew, if there is no genetic or inherited
>component to Jewishness?
>How do you account for the acceptance of non-religious Jews into Israel
>under the law of return, if there is no genetic or inherited component to
>Jewishness?
>Now, it may be that _you_ believe there is no genetic or inherited
>component to Jewishness — but many Jews obviously disagree with you.
>With good wishes to all,
You have missed the point.
It is all just this silly little and all important superstion at the
same time belief that makes both true at the same time.
Well said though.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 42966 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:53:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42966 sci.chem:37099
[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Jon Richfield
>>It is no good railing against the halfwits that think that high
>>indignation and high moral tone substitute for facts, logic and high
>>moral standards. It should be mathematically provable that there are
>>twice as many halfwits than wits, but there seems to be a
>>non-conservation principle…
>I find it interesting that those who profess ignorance to the history of
>this thread would indulge in painting all its participants with one
>brush. Yes, there have been great distortions of fact in this thread.
>You will find that they come from Mr. Giwer who knows nothing about
>history or chemistry, but believes he knows both.
>Additionally, Mr. Giwer’s only aim to to convince people to doubt the
>vast amount of historical and forensic evidence for the holocaust.
>Before painting everyone with one brush, please read a bit more
>carefully.
And you forgot law. Testimony is not evidence.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42971 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gerstein’s confession
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:20:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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1/30/46
When the “confession” of Kurt Gerstein is offered as evidence at
the war crimes trials at
Nuernberg, it is judged to be so obviously phony that it is
rejected, and not permitted to be
read before the court. Even kangaroo courts have standards to
maintain! In later trials, this
same document is admitted as evidence by judges and prosecutors
desperate for anything
that will help them hang their virtually defenseless victims.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42977 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:47:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
know he lies a lot.
4/19/82:
WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
Buchenwald for the Duluth
News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
gas chambers, which
were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
Germany, and as we
all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
Wiesenthal, Books
and Bookmen, April, 1975).
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42983 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:55:23 GMT
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[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>>Dear Idiot,
>>
>>>Oooh. Are all self-proclaimed libertarians this charming?
>>
>>>> The claim was pamphlet.
>>
>>>The claim was something that advocates murder. I used the word “pamphlet”,
>>>yes. A novel, though, does NOT alter the point.
>>
>> That claim was PAMPHLET, fool.
>So? The strength of the point is not altered by these books.
The point is that you are making wild claims without any reason to make
the claims.
>Nor by the existence of web pages and skinhead music which advocate murder
>equally strongly.
Perhaps you would be willing to provide a few URLs? I would like to
examine your claim first hand.
>>>> You have provided a work of fiction in novel form.
>>
>>>That advocates murder.
>>
>> Fiction advocates nothing. Of course you could take the position that
>>Shakespeare advocated war and revenge. There is no telling what you
>>would be condemning if you ever discovered science fiction.
>Tell that to the people who banned it.
Banned Shakespeare? What cretins did that?
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42986 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Sado-masochism revisited
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:41:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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3/30/86:
The New York Times Book Review runs a letter to the editor
concerning Martin Gilbert’s
book, The Holocaust, in which the correspondent quotes Gilbert as
writing, “… on Oct. 20,
1944, (Yitzhak) Sonenson’s mother and sister were killed …” The
letter writer then goes on
to introduce herself as Yitzhak Sonenson’s sister, Yaffa Eliach.
She continues, saying, “My
brother Yitzhak is quite aware of my existence. In frequent family
reunions on both sides of
the Atlantic, we celebrate this great gift of life.”
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:09 PDT 1996
Article: 42991 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am asking for a number, stupid
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:44:40 GMT
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>>>In <4[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Yale F. Edeiken
>>>>>>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cute. If you do not have a number for those immediately executed
>>>>>>> solely because they were Jews simply say so. Just stop the game
>>>>>>> playing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the number?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The game player seems to be you. Your question makes no sense. Is a
>>>>>>person deliberately starved or worked to death executed? There were
>>>>>>approximately 6 million Jews murdered because they were Jews. The low figure is
>>>>>>5.1 million the high is slightly over 6.
>>>>>Indeed! Hilberg[1] estimates deaths by cause:
>>>>>Ghettoization and general privation: 800,000
>>>>>Open-air shootings: 1,300,000
>>>>>Camps: 3,000,000
>>>>>Total: 5,100,000
>>>>>He breaks down the camps category as follows:
>>>>>Death camps: 2,700,000
>>>>>Camps w/ tolls in the low 150,000
>>>>> 10,000’s or below
>>>>>Romanian 100,000
>>>>>Croatian 50,000
>>>>>Total: 3,000,000
>>>>>He breaks down death camps as follows:
>>>>>Auschwitz[1]: 1,000,000
>>>>>Treblinka: 750,000
>>>>>Belzec: 550,000
>>>>>Sobibor: 200,000
>>>>>Kulmhof: 150,000
>>>>>Lublin: 50,000
>>>>>Total: 2,700,000
>>>>>As Mr. Edeiken mentions, Hilberg’s estimate is on the low end.
>>>>>[1] Raoul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_
>>>>> volume 3, appendix B, Holmes & Meier: New York (1985)
>>>>>[2] The Auscwitz-Birkenau complex
>>>> This still does not break it down in the manner I am looking for unless
>>>>the claim is of 4.3M summary executions solely because of being Jewish.
>>>It is no doubt obvious that the Giwer-troll has stumbled across one of
>>>the major shortcomings of the Nazi regime. In their meticulous
>>>record-keeping they did not foresee the day that an arrogant, pathetic
>>>windbag (aka the Giwer-troll) would make it his mission in life to
>>>puff up his non-existent self-esteem by defending their “honour” – and
>>>in so-doing fulfull his dream of leading the group of societal misfits
>>>whose attention he so desperately seeks with his incessant useless
>>>wastes of bandwidth.
>> You have such a way with words, fat broad.
>You don’t look all that slight on your WEB page.
I’m not the model for the BC charater either.
You have the numbers
>you asked for above. Rather than discuss what you asked for this is
>the result of Mr. Green’s work. I tend to wonder why he bothers. I
>guess he likes to make you look like a jerk and you always seem to
>oblige him and many others. I weould think you would soon weary of
>this. Is it that you can’t tell what is happening here? Maybe it is
>that **you don’t really care what is happening here.**
Bull. Those are not what I asked for.
To repeat for small minds, I want a single number that is the number of
those Jews summarily executed either in situ or shipped to camps to be
immediately executed solely because they were Jews.
Those do not purport in any manner to be the single requested number nor
is there any way to derive it from them.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:10 PDT 1996
Article: 43004 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One man’s opinion
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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“The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United
States. Equally popular was the sentence already announced by the high
tribunal: death. But what
kind of trial was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of
loosely given political promises
subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of pleasing
platitudes to be set lightly aside when
expediency required it. It was the foundation of the American system of
law and justice and
[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
those Constitutional precepts in
order to punish a vanquished enemy.”
— U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43005 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When I said it
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
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When I said it, I was told by the legal experts her that I was wrong.
“No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
finely the lawyers analyzed
it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried had never been formalized
as a crime with the
definiteness required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death
penalty by the
international community. By our standards that crime arose under an ex
post facto law. Goering et
al deserved severe punishment. But their guilt did not justify us in
substituting power for principle.”
–U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.
I would say it is good company to be wrong with.
From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43009 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 02:44:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
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[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
> >> Pure bullshit. Name the groups that use it. Please be specific >I found this little gem in alt.politics.white-power. It’s a message from >His message begins here: >********************************* >The Turner Diaries are not precisely a work of fiction. Dr. Pierce wrote >***************************************************** >Thank you, White Wolf 🙂 I do not see a group mentioned. Could you point it out? From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:12 PDT 1996 Keith Morrison >Matt Giwer wrote: >> Practicing while waiting for the Pres campaign to warm up. I practice >If Mr Giwer uses the same techniques to defend evolution as he I use science. Works every time. You should try it some time. I even take the time to point out their precious holy book is nonsense, From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:13 PDT 1996 [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >BEGIN — Cut Here — cut here What conceivably does a French artist’s conception of a crematorium have From [email protected] Thu Jun 13 23:25:13 PDT 1996 Anyone want to explain this one? ” It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances were From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:05 PDT 1996 [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote: >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote: >>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote: >>>>Mike Curtis wrote (of Ehrlich606): >>>>>He can’t fool some of us any longer so its time to go. >>>>For an example of how easily some folks are fooled, please refer to the >>>Gosh, who are you going to shil for now that he is gone. You may have >>>Try presenting your own views rather than being a fop for someone else >> As the holohuggers do nothing but mindlessly repeat what others tell >You first. I have. Many times. Your turn. From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:06 PDT 1996 Looks like he is good at subborning perjury also. 4/13/83: From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:07 PDT 1996 [email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote: >>In article <[email protected]>, >>>>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >OK, and sorry, I made a stupid mistake. The cubic size is of 17 meters 4913 cubic meters IF you are talking ash and not the charred ground bone Although one would expect some spreading, the idea of their floating out In fact were there not one passage in the questionable memoirs of Hoess >>> We have a chemist who claims that CaO2 is so inert that it will >You’re always oversimplifying. The calcium phosphates are a family I am simplifying nothing. The chemist claimed the ash would be CaO2. >If you can affirm that some of these components aren’t fertilizers, I affirm we are not talking about fresh bones from the cremation >R. Green still answered about your ad hominem attacks. It appears to The more you folks allow him to get away with his game playing the more From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:08 PDT 1996 Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found “Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the Amazing what you can find if you look around. And holohuggers are going to believe it. From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:09 PDT 1996 “PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:10 PDT 1996 ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:11 PDT 1996 I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with the Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication History As long as 80 years ago it was recognized that hydrocyanic acid could be Deficiencies and disadvantages had first of all to be eliminated from Composition In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically Packing ZYKLON is packed in handy, gas-tight tins of various sizes which are Imperial – units 16 tins, each containing 40 ozs. HCN – total 40 lbs HCN Toxicity No thoroughly effective pesticide is known to exist which could be Methods Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building. Ventilation During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions, Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:12 PDT 1996 Specifications For HCN Name: Hazards 1.Unstable with heat, alkaline materials and water. Source: Hydrogen Cyanide , Dupont Publication 7-83. From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:13 PDT 1996 [email protected] (John Morris) wrote: >On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:07:56 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) >>
>>in your response.
>a most radical neo-nazi named White Wolf.
>them from years of reflections on NEWS stories concerning the civil rights
>movement, vietnam, and affirmative action programs and the problems they
>were causing. Dr. Pierce logically deduced the possible outcome–e.g.,
>race war/civil war combination. It is up to each person as to whether or
>not this is coming to pass. In my opinion, a civil war with race havoc is
>already underway. The day of the rope and the gun is coming within ten
>years, probably sooner. People of majority rights are fedup with the bull
>crap and the in-your-face race war bs of Henry Cisnaros, section 8,
>affirmative action, Jesse Jackson, Farrahkhan. For the white race, the
>sooner the better. Whites now are 75% of the population. In forty years,
>they will be about 50%. For the warriors, there is little need to wait.
>Besides, whatever is going to happen will emerge rapidly. There is an
>historical meltdown of most civilizations within 50 years of a
>multicultural havoc such as has been foisted on the Americans. Even the
>blacks are fearfully escaping the blacks, and the black males are such
>trash that less than 20% of black women want to marry them. This does not
>leave much for whites to gain from continuing the open relationship with
>this decadent culture whose major thrust is dissolution, hate whitey, and
>the hell with responsibility. No society can live with this. Therefore,
>the race war is imminent and unavoidable. As the Preamble states… “We
>the people in order to form a more perfect union, establish the public
>welfare….” Race equality bs which really just protects criminals in
>black skin is out the window, because “the public welfare” is threatened
>by them specifically. With 50% of the YBM’s having a felony prison
>sentence by age 30, there is no need to discuss the matter any farther.
>The black race is decadent, hopeless, hateful, and out to be spanked.
Article: 43015 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, Home of Superheroes
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:44:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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>> on creationists also.
>does to defend revisionism the creationists probably could not
>be happier.
just as I do here.
Article: 43020 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Krema I exhaust flow.jpg (1/1) Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 05:27:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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>begin 644 Krema I exhaust flow.jpg
to do with anything we are discussing?
Article: 43024 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Those Polish spies again
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:46:23 GMT
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built in for mass
extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being
led to the bath-house, the
doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor
was electrified in a
special way; there they were killed. ”
IMT VII – p.576-577.
Article: 43025 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest’ in German & a parallel
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 04:23:25 GMT
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>>>>thread– Re: Dresden?
>>>to wriggle up to Giwer for a while. That way you can get all kinds of
>>>shill work done.
>>>who is head over heals more honest than you appear to be.
>>them, it would be refreshing if they were to follow your advice
Article: 43026 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ya gotta love this Simon guy
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:45:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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The Toronto Star recounts the story of Frank Walus, who was
fingered by Simon Wiesenthal
first as a Gestapo collaborator, then later as a member of the
Gestapo. Twelve
eyewitnesses swore Walus was a mass-murderer who had stomped a
pregnant Jew to
death. Forty eyewitnesses placed Walus at the concentration camp in
Kielce, Poland,
during the war. At the trial, however, it was established that
Walus was never at the camp,
never a member of the Gestapo, never a member of the SS, and that
in fact all of
Wiesenthal’s charges against Walus were fabrications. This prompted
the US Justice
Department to drop all charges, issue an apology, and pay Walus
$34,000 to help offset his
legal fees.
Article: 43030 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:49:29 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43030 sci.chem:37102 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:50
>>Matt Giwer
>>>
>>>>>>It will be uncessary. ‘Some tons’ do some m^3. You willn’t obstruct a
>>>>>>rivier with it, even less if you put the ashes from time to time. The
>>>>>>beds of riviers are moving with the flow, and a part of the ashes
>>>>>>could take part in the ecosystem.
>>>
>>>>> There is no choice of “from time to time” given the quantities
>>>>>that were in need of disposal. And then were are talking
>>>>>thousands of tons of ashes being dumped right there on the river
>>>>>bank.
>>>
>>>>I repeat: some tons do some m^3. Thousands of tons do millions of
>>>>victims: from 0.9M (gassed) to 2.5 M (summarized). At the most, 5m^3.
>>>>It is a cubic meter of 1.7m.
>>>
>>> You are not making a lick of sense here. You appear to be saying
>>>millions of cremations would only result in five cubic meters of
>>>material. Perhaps you should start off with the holohugger claim
>>>of 2 lbs of ash per body and start multiplying.
>for one side instead of 1.7m (2.5M deathes with 2l/victim). But nobody
>said that the ashes were always released in the same place, and if the
>operation was made from time to time, the flow of the rivier could
>easily spread out the ashes.
fragments some holohugger swears is what was dumped.
to sea is certainly not one of credibility. It is certainly there some
place. The Soviets liberated the place. But do not appear to have
asked the question as to where.
there would be no answer to this question. Good investigators develop
evidence. They do not take the unsupported statements of anyone.
>>>not even burn at 800C. You may also let either lay out wet or
>>>dry exposed either to every organism you can find and you will
>>>not be able to get anything to grow on either. Have you ever
>>>seen mold growing on a diamond? graphite?
>with a lot of fertilizers among them. Fresh bones are mainly made of
>hydroxyapatite (Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2), carbonate of calcium and sustitutes
>of apatites (with F, carbonates, Mg).
He ever reiterated that when I suggested he might have said CaO3. We
are not talking fresh bones here. We are talking bones that have been
reduced to some degree of ash depending upon the story you wish to use.
>please give your sources or your explainations.
process. Just what is it that you are talking about?
>me that the less you know (obviously less than Green), the more
>agressive you are.
I recite what his game is.
Article: 43032 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another gas chamber
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
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powdered cyanide.
dummy shower heads. In
the engineers’ room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to
control inflow and outtake of
gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to
generate the lethal smoke.
>From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory. ”
IMT XXX – p.470.
Article: 43033 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
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in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. ”
IMT VII – p. 377.
Article: 43034 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. ”
IMT VII – p.491.
Article: 43039 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:06:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 121
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long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.
useful in pest control
but it took half this time to popularize the method.
the method of application.
First this had been done in such a way that hydrocyanic acid was no more
developed on the spot
by mixing cyanides and acid, but this process already took place in the
factory: The so-called “pot
method” was replaced by liquid hydrocyanic acid. The few deficiencies of
this procedure were
removed in the early twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN
to a “carrier
substance”, thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
of liquid HCN were
maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator was reduced to a
minimum. Hydrocyanic
acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for considerable periods
and under all climatic
conditions, any quantity of gas can be easily measured, quickly and
cleanly released. Any
residures are completely harmless.
stabilized and absorbed in a
porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared
>from wood pulp. Snippets
generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off
the gas more rapidly. Upon
request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
collected at the end of
the fumigation.
packed in strong wooden
cases. One case, measuring 72 x 50 x 36 cm contains:
or 30 tins, each
containing 16 ozs. HCN – total 30 lbs HCN.
considered to be harmless to
human beings or mammals. Fatal concentrations of HCN impede or
completely cut off the oxygen
supply to the cells. The poison can enter the body in three ways:
through the mouth, the respiratory
organs, or the pores of the skin. The latter will occur in particular if
the body is exposed to high
concentration for any length of time and in unfavourable conditions
(great heat).
The tins are opened, and the
ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the
building. If this is done
correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the
premises. Spaces difficult
to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one
begins with the top floor, and
then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms
already charged. Even
under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas
more than is absolutely
necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the
building; warning notices must be
put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to
prevent unauthorised
persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to
be attacked; for the
destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24
hours will suffice, against
other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there
are any dense stowages or
bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be
extended to 72 hours.
place in the reverse
direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened
first, then gradually those in
the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15
minutes at a time and then to make
interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning.
ventilation will take at
least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before
the end of airing.
Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON
tins and
absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the
resumption of work.
Article: 43040 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HCN itself
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:07:02 GMT
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HCN, hydrocyanic acid; prussic acid
Boiling point:
25.7 C / 78.3 F at 760 mm Hg
Specific gravity:
0.69 at 18 C / 64 F
Vapor density:
0.947 (air = 1)
Melting point:
-13.2 C / 8.2 F
Vapor pressure:
750mm Hg at 25 C / 77 F 1200mm Hg at 38 C /100F
Solubility in water:
100%
Appearance:
clear
Color:
slightly bluish
Odor:
bitter almond, very mild, non-irritating (odor is not considered a
safe method of determining
presence of the poison)
2.Will explode if mixed with 20% sulfuric acid.
3.Polymerization (decomposition) will occur violently with heat,
alkaline material or water.
Once started, reaction is autocatalytic and uncontrollable. Will
explode.
4.Flash point: -18 C / 0 F
5.Autoignition temperature: 538 C / 1000 F
6.Flammable limits in air (by volume): lower 6%, upper 41%
Article: 43050 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dear Jamie
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:24:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a proposed HTML 3.0 item. 3.0 is dead. Netscape 2.0 does not
>>support it. HTML 2.0 compliance is.>I suggest you read
> http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimer.html
>[one “useful” tip and one gratuitous insult deleted]
I suggest you subscribe to the HTML Writers Group list and learn
something about the subject before you make a greater ass of yourself.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43052 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: american cult covers up anti-semitic collobarion in 3rd Reich – comproms.txt [1/2]
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:00:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] wrote:
>–*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*
>Extract from 2,500,000 pamphlets distributed around Germany in 1934 by the
>American religious publishing house “Watchtower” and its associated
>group, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. Copies were also individually addressed to top
>Nazis, with a personal letter to Adolf Hitler:
><empire. By this is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>Empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of
>exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.
>This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the
>stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is
>a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: “the Jews own it, the
>Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.”>>
>A full article on this subject is attached below:
>–*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*
>Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Jehovah’s Witnesses, Anti-semitism and the Third Reich
> Jehovah’s Witnesses,
>
> Anti-semitism
> and the Third Reich:
>
>The Watch Tower Society’s Attempted
> Compromise with Nazism
>M. James Penton
>ÿÿÿ[*]Konrad Frankes testamony
>ÿÿÿ[*]Declaration of Facts
>ÿÿÿ[*]Žrkl„rung
>Since the Second World War, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society
>has taught Jehovah’s Witnesses that while the German churches, both Catholic
>and Protestant, were guilty of compromise with Hitler and
>the Nazi Party, their German brethren, then commonly known as
>”Earnest Bible Students,” stood solidly against the
>principles of the Third Reich. Because of the brave stand taken by most
>ordinary German Witnesses in the face of a terrible persecution that cost
>many of them their lives in Hitler’s concentration camps, they have rightly
>been praised by secular historians-a fact which the Watch Tower Society has
>used to buttress its assertions.
>For example, The Watchtower magazine of October 1, 1984 (p. 8),
>reported the findings of Christine E. King and
>Michael Kater to the effect that the number of Witness
>imprisonments and deaths brought about by Nazi persecution had been greatly
>underestimated. Quoting Dr. King, it stated:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”`Theological principles were adhered to; Witnesses remained
>”neutral,” they were honest and completely trustworthy and as such,
>ironically, often found themselves employed as servants of the
>S.S.'”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>What has not generally been known either by most Jehovah’s
>Witnesses or many independent scholars, however, is that while ordinary
>German Witnesses did generally maintain their integrity and commitment to
>their principles, their leaders–the Watch Tower’s second president,
>Judge Joseph F. Rutherford, and the man who succeeded him
>in office in 1942, Nathan H. Knorr, plus high German Watch
>Tower officials-did not.
>Furthermore, Rutherford and his lieutenants tried to save the German arm of
>their movement by scapegoating the Jews and attacking Great Britain, the
>United States, and the League of Nations.
>During the first half of their history, the Bible Student-Jehovah’s Witnesses
>were notable for their sympathy to the Jews. Even more than most late
>nineteenth- and twentieth-century American Protestant premillennialists, the
>Watch Tower’s first president, Charles T. Russell, was a thoroughgoing
>supporter of Zionist causes. He refused to attempt the conversion of the
>Jews, believed in the Jewish resettlement of Palestine, and in 1910, led a
>New York Jewish audience in singing the Zionist anthem, Hatikva.[*]
>[1]For more than a decade after Russell’s death in 1916,
>Judge Rutherford followed in his footsteps.
>In 1925 he produced a small book entitled Restoration,
>based on a series of radio broadcasts he had given, and in 1926 he published
>a similar volume called Comfort for the Jews. In both, he proclaimed
>himself a friend of the Jewish people and asserted that Jewish migration to
>the ancient Holy Land was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Identical
>Publisher’s Forewords to Restoration and Comfort for the Jews
>stated:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>THE rebuilding of Palestine is claiming the attention of Jews
>throughout the earth. Some of the Gentile world powers are outwardly favoring
>the movement but manifestly for selfish reasons.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>JUDGE RUTHERFORD, known throughout the world as a friend of the
>Hebrew people, is vigorously supporting the claim of the Jews to the Holy
>Land. He is opposed to proselytizing the Jews, holding that such is not only
>wrong but contrary to the Scriptures. His lectures to large audiences, which
>have been broadcast throughout the world, on “JEWS RETURNING TO PALESTINE”,
>have created an intense interest. There is a good demand for them in printed
>form. He has simplified these lectures and now presents them in book form.
>This volume will be of profound interest to Jews and Gentiles alike. It is
>the first unbiased presentation of the subject from the Scriptural viewpoint
>published.
>The Publishers send forth this volume confident that it will do much
>good.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>In 1930 Rutherford produced a larger volume on the same theme called
>Life.But suddenly he repudiated his beliefs respecting the Jews.
>Life was withdrawn from circulation,[*][2]
>and in 1932 Rutherford proclaimed that “fleshly Israel” had no specific role to play
>in salvation history. He wrote:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>The Jews were evicted from Palestine and `their house left unto
> them desolate’ because they rejected Christ Jesus, the beloved and anointed
> King of Jehovah. To this day the Jews have not repented of this wrongful act
> committed by their forefathers. Many of them have been returned to the land
> of Palestine, but they have been induced to go there because of selfishness
> and for sentimental reasons.
> During the long period elapsing from the time of their expulsion to the
> present day the Jews have not “borne the shame of the heathen” for Jehovah’s
> sake, nor for the name of Christ. During all this period of time, and
> particularly during the World War, the true followers of Christ Jesus
> devoted to God, and to his kingdom, have been bearing the shame of the
> heathen and have been hated by all the nations for Christ’s sake and the
> sake of Jehovah’s name. (Matt. 24: 9: Mark 13: 13)
> In contrast to this, during the World War the Jews received recognition of
> the heathen nations. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the
> heathen governments of Satan’s organization, came forth, recognized the
> Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. In this the seventh world power
> [the British Empire] took the lead. Now Big Business and other wings of
> Satan’s organization place the Jews alongside of and in the same category
> as the Gentiles. Heretofore even God’s people have overlooked the fact that
> the affairs of God’s kingdom with reference to the things of the earth are of
> far greater importance than the rehabilitation of that little strip of land
> on the eastern side of the Mediterranean sea. The Jews have received more
> attention at their hands than they have really deserved. Therefore this
> prophecy [of Isaiah] must have its chief fulfillment upon the true people
> of God’s kingdom which are now on earth.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [*][3]
>
>Perhaps the judge was simply anxious to assert that Jehovah’s
>Witnesses were the “true Israel of God,” but it seems that he had other
>reasons for making such a dramatic doctrinal switch without any more detailed
>explanation. While he may formerly have proclaimed himself a pro-Zionist
>”friend of the Hebrew people” in the tradition of his predecessor, he
>occasionally manifested a streak of deep-seated anti-semitism.
>For example, while giving a talk on biblical prophecies respecting the
>return of the Jews to Palestine at a Canadian Bible Student convention in
>Winnipeg, Manitoba, in the early 1920s, he interjected:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”I’m speaking of the Palestine Jew, not the hooked-nosed,
>stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying
>to gyp you out of every nickel you’ve got.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][4]
>But there were no doubt other factors in 1932 which impelled him to
>abandon the Bible Students’ long tradition of philo-Judaism besides simple
>personal bias. During the late 1920s and early 1930s anti-semitism was
>becoming rampant in the United States and Canada with the rise of a variety
>of movements both religious and political.[*]
>[5] And with the start of the Depression in 1929, it began
>to appear possible that the violently anti-Jewish Nazis could come to power
>in Germany – something which happened on January 30, 1933. So it seems clear
>that Rutherford was anxious to dissociate the Witnesses from the Jewish
>community as definitively as possible. Yet these facts can in no way excuse
>what he and his aids were shortly to do during the first year of the Third
>Reich.
>Early in April 1933 the Nazis moved against Jehovah’s
>Witnesses. Their branch headquarters at Magdeburg were seized, and their
>religious activities were temporarily stopped. But on April 28, German
>authorities returned the properties to the Watch Tower Society to their
>American owners, no doubt to keep from offending the United States.
>[*][6] However, Witness leaders and
>Jehovah’s Witnesses in general knew that they were not popular with the
>Nazis. So according to an official Witness account, Judge Rutherford and
>the German Witness community decided to take a bold stand against the
>Hitler dictatorship.
>The book Jehovah’s Witnesses in The Divine Purpose, published by
>the Watch Tower Society in 1957, states:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Judge Rutherford had been watching the German situation closely
>and was well acquainted with its development as it affected the witness work.
>With this serious turn of events he lost no time in going to Germany,
>accompanied by N. H. Knorr, to see what could be done. On June 25…, a
>convention was called in Berlin. There a Declaration of Facts was presented
>to the 7,000 in attendance in protest against the Hitler government for
>their highhanded interference with the witness work of the Society, and was
>unanimously adopted. The declaration was mailed to every high officer of
>the government from the president down to the members of the council, and
>2,500,000 copies were given public distribution. Retaliation came quickly.
>Three days later, on June 28, for the second time the Society’s property
>was seized and occupied, and by government decree its printing plant was
>closed.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [*][7]
>But was the seizure of Watch Tower property by the German government on
>June 28, 1933 really because the Declaration of Facts was a bold protest
>against Nazi actions? No, quite the contrary. In a tape-recorded account
>of the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany, former Watch Tower
>Society “branch servant” or “overseer” Konrad Franke tells
>that when he and another Jehovah’s Witness arrived at the Berlin Sporthalle
>Wilmersdorf where the 1933 Witness convention was being held, they were
>shocked. The building was bedecked with Swastika flags – evidently to
>please the Nazis. Then during the convention itself, the Witness faithful
>were called on to sing a hymn that they had not sung in Germany for years.
>While they had no objection to the words, the music was the same as that
>of the German national anthem, “Deutschland, Deutschland ber
>alles.”[*][8]
>As for the Declaration and an accompanying letter sent to
>Adolf Hitler personally, they were nothing short of
>self-serving statements which attempted to ingratiate Jehovah’s Witnesses
>with the Nazis. Under a sub-section entitled “Jews,” the Declaration
>reads:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received
>financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the
>truth. Up to this moment there never has been the slightest bit of money
>contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ
>Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews
>entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior
>of the world sent of God for man’s good. This of itself should be sufficient
>proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and therefore the
>charges against us are maliciously false and could only proceed from Satan,
>our great enemy.
>The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American
>empire. By this is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>Empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of
>exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact
>particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold
>of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb
>concerning the city of New York which says: “the Jews own it, the Irish
>Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.” We have no fight with
>any of these persons mentioned but, as witnesses for Jehovah and in
>obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled
>to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people
>may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][9]
>That was not all. Besides damning the League of
>Nations, the Declaration said:
>”The present government of Germany has declared against Big Business
>oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the
>political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position….”
>[*][10]
>Then it proclaimed:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Instead of being against the principles advocated by the
>government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point
>out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full
>realization of these principles.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][11]
>The letter sent to Hitler was equally compromising in nature. To
>ingratiate the Witnesses with the Nazi Fhrer, it claimed that the
>Watch Tower Society had been and was “outstandingly friendly to Germany.”
>But more than that, it falsely asserted that Rutherford and seven members
>of the Board of Directors of the Watch Tower Society had been sentenced to
>eighty years in prison “because the [Watch Tower] president refused to use
>two magazines published by him in the United States for war propaganda
>against Germany.”[*][12]
>As Jehovah’s Witnesses were soon to discover, the Nazis were not
>impressed by either their Declaration or the Society’s letter to Hitler.
>Many Germans were thoroughly aware that they had long been pro-Zionist,
>and Nazis officials were hardly so stupid as not to know that in many ways
>they stood in direct opposition to what the Hitler and his associates
>proclaimed and demanded. The Witnesses were internationalists in a religious
>sense and were generally quite tolerant of persons of other races; they
>regarded secular authority as of the devil; and, above all, they were
>openly anti-militaristic[*][13] –
>all factors which caused the nationalistic, racist, and militaristic Nazis
>to despise them. Thus the German government unleashed a wave of persecution
>against the Witnesses almost immediately.
>On June 27, 1933, one day after they begin sending copies of the
>Declaration by registered mail to German officials, the Prussian Land or
>state banned them, and the police began to carry out widespread raids on
>their homes and places of business. As has been noted above, the Society’s
>Magdeburg offices were seized again on June 28.
> Ultimately, between two and three million marks worth of Watch Tower
>property was confiscated and destroyed by the Nazis.
>[*][14] But it was then, and only
>then, that Rutherford and the Watch Tower Society decided to oppose Nazi
>policies in an uncompromising fashion. For some time thereafter, German
>Witnesses were divided over what they should do.
>[*][15]
>Although after the Second World War most Jehovah’s Witnesses and others
>were unaware of the compromising actions of Witness leaders in the Germany
>of 1933, there were some who still remembered the Berlin convention.
>Furthermore, copies of both the Declaration and the Watch Tower letter
>to Hitler remained extant. So when the Watch Tower Society published a
>history of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany in the 1974 Yearbook of
>Jehovah’s Witnesses, it was necessary to deal with what were very
>embarrassing data in a way which would not make the Society’s Brooklyn
>leaders look guilty of violating their own teachings. Thus the full
>responsibility for the attempted compromise with Hitler and the Nazis was
>placed on the shoulders of Paul Balzereit, the Society’s German branch
>servant at the time.
>Because of the importance of the Society’s present official position on
>this matter, the 1974 Yearbook account of the 1933 Berlin convention
>is given in full. It reads:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>By the summer of 1933 the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses had been
>banned in the majority of German states. the brothers’ homes were being
>searched regularly and many brothers had been arrested. The flow of
>spiritual food was partially hampered, although only for a time; still many
>brothers were asking how long it would be possible to continue the work. In
>this situation the congregations were invited on very short notice to a
>convention to be held in Berlin on June 25. Since it was expected that many
>would be unable to attend because of the various bans, the congregations
>were encouraged to send at least one or several delegates. But, as it turned
>out, 7,000 brothers got there. For many of them it took three days, some
>riding bicycles the entire distance, whereas others went by truck, since
>the bus companies refused to rent buses to a banned organization.
>Brother Rutherford, who, together with Brother Knorr, had come to Germany
>just a few days before in order to see what could be done to ensure the
>safety of the Society’s property, had prepared a declaration with Brother
>Balzereit to be presented to the convention delegates for adoption. It was
>a protest against the meddling of the Hitler government into the preaching
>work we were doing.
>All high government officials, from the Reich’s president on down, were to
>receive a copy of the declaration, if possible, by registered mail. Several
>days before the convention started Brother Rutherford returned to America.
>Many in attendance were disappointed in the “declaration,” since in many
>points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Brother
>Mtze from Dreseden, who had worked closely with Brother Balzereit up
>until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. It
>was not the first time that Brother Balzereit had watered down the clear and
>unmistakable language of the Society’s publications so as to avoid
>difficulties with governmental agencies.
>A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In
>fact, a former pilgrim brother [traveling evangelist] by the name of
>Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It
>could not rightfully be said that the declaration was unanimously adopted,
>even though Brother Balzereit later notified Brother Rutherford that it had
>been.
>The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took
>2,100,000 copies of the “declaration” home with them, however, and made
>fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in
>positions of responsibility. The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a
>letter that, in part, read:
>”The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been
>exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society
>and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80
>years’ imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two
>magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda
>against Germany.”
>Even though the declaration had been weakened and many brothers could not
>wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and
>started a wave of persecution against those who had distributed it.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][16]
>The question now arises, how well does this account stand up?
>In the first place, it continues to assert wrongly in the tradition of
>Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose that there were 7,000
>present at the 1933 Berlin convention. The Declaration is clear in
>repeatedly asserting that there were only 5,000 delegates there. But that
>is a small matter.
>What is more significant is that the 1974 Yearbook account
>assumes – apparently on no more authority than the unsubstantiated beliefs
>of a “Brother Mtze from Dreseden”-that
>Paul Balzereit was the one who “weakened” the Declaration.
>Balzereit may well have been responsible for having the
>Declaration translated into German, and he may also have been responsible
>for drafting the letter to Hitler. Yet there is clear evidence to suggest
>that he did not tamper with the wording of the Declaration.
>First, the Watch Tower Society published the English version
>of the Declaration – which is virtually identical to the German version –
>in the 1934 Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its official
>statement to Hitler, the German government, and German officials, high and
>low; and this it would not have done without Rutherford’s full approval.
>Second, the English version of the Declaration is clearly written
>in the judge’s own bombastic style.
>Third, the statements directed against the Jews in the
>Declaration are more in keeping with what an American such as Rutherford
>would have written rather than a German. How, for example, would Balzereit
>know the “proverb,” so called, concerning New York which says: “the Jews own
>it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills”? Fourth,
>Rutherford had been guilty of a similar compromise with secular authority
>in the United States in 1918 in a vain attempt to escape imprisonment.[*][17]
>Then finally, he was an autocrat supreme who would not have
>brooked the serious type of insubordination that Balzereit would have been
>guilty of had he “weakened” the Declaration.
>While it must be admitted that this evidence, although strong, is
>circumstantial rather than direct, this makes little difference in the long
>run. Regardless of who wrote the Declaration, the fact is that it was
>published as an official document of the Watch Tower Society.
>Thus the American leaders of the Society – and Judge J. F.
>Rutherford in particular – were directly responsible for what was outright
>anti-Semitism and a willingness to compromise their loudly trumpeted
>principle of “Christian neutrality” in order to continue their publishing
>and preaching work in Germany.
>So the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses, like the those who led almost
>every other church, sect, and cult in the Third Reich were willing, under
>the circumstances of the times, to betray their most sacred values.
>But that is not all.
>The Watch Tower Society is guilty of an ongoing cover-up of its past
>concerning these matters. While the Society still boasts of the bravery
>of German Jehovah’s Witnesses in their refusal to submit to the dictates of
>Nazism, it also continues to try to hide its leaders’ attempt to compromise
>with the Nazis in 1933. Although The Watchtower of October 1, 1984
>quoted from Christine King’s The Nazi State and the New
>Religions, its publishers failed to note what Dr. King had written about
>the Society’s 1933 Declaration of Facts.
>For example, in a brief evaluation of that document, she makes what,
>from a Witness standpoint, is a rather damning remark. She says:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”The document is a master of its kind and worthy of the
>other four sects [the Christian Scientists, the Latter-day Saints, the
>Seventh-day Adventists and members of the New Apostolic Church] all of
>whom supported, in one way or another, the Nazi state.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][18]
>In another paragraph, she remarks:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Having attempted to assure the authorities by the
>Declaration of Facts, of their good citizenship, having interpreted and
>explained their teachings in a way, which given the preoccupations of the
>regime, was designed to allay fears and offer a hint of compromise, the
>Witnesses seemed to have expected little further harassment. Had the
>Declaration not condemned with the Nazis, the League of Nations, had it
>not described National Socialism as standing out against the injustices
>Germans had suffered since 1919 and had it not ended with a personal
>appeal to the Fhrer?”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][19]
>So it is hardly possible that the present-day leadership of the Society
>can be ignorant of the Declaration and its compromising, anti-Semitic
>nature.
>Despite such statements by Dr. King, however, the June 8, 1985 Awake!
>(p. 10) damned both the Catholic and the Protestant clergy for
>supporting Nazism and proclaimed: “However, there was one group in Germany
>that courageously championed Christian principles. That group was Jehovah’s
>Witnesses. Unlike the clergy and their followers, the Witnesses refused to
>compromise with Hitler and the Nazis. They refused to violate God’s
>commandments. They would not break their Christian neutrality in political
>affairs. (See Isaiah 2:2-4; John 17:16; James 4:4.) They did not attribute
>Heil, or salvation, to Hitler, as did the overwhelming majority of their
>flocks.” And more recent issues of both Awake! and The Watchtower
>have taken much the same tack.
>Awake! published several articles on the Holocaust in its April 8,
>1989 issue in which it argued rightly that many others besides Jews had
>died as a result of Nazi extermination policies. Dealing with the
>persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1933 to the collapse of the Third
>Reich in 1945, one of these articles, “The Holocaust: Victims or Martyrs?”,
>states on page 12:
>”They [Jehovah’s Witnesses] were of many nationalities but were
>misconstrued as a pacifist threat to Germany’s National Socialist regime
>because of their Christian stand of neutrality and refusal to be
>incorporated into the war effort of any nation. Hitler called them a
>`brood to be exterminated.'”
>Significantly, this article also quotes Christine King, but it makes no
>mention of either the Declaration of Facts or the Society’s 1933 letter
>to Hitler.
>Then, just after the publication of the April 8, 1989 Awake!, a
>series of articles appeared in the April 1 and 15 and May 1 and 15, 1989
>issues of The Watchtower on the subject of “Babylon the Great.”
>Referring to the great “whore” or “harlot” described at Revelation 17, these
>articles identified her as the world-wide empire of false religion which
>has “committed fornication with the kings of the earth.” Accordingly, The
>Watchtower censured both Catholicism and Protestantism – which they
>regard as parts of Babylon the Great – in the harshest terms for having
>supported various European secular governments in past centuries and,
>especially, for having been in league with Nazism during the Second World
>War. But not once in these articles does the anonymous author admit that,
>from the standpoint of their own teachings, Watch Tower leaders were also
>were willing to commit “fornication” with the rulers of the Third Reich
>had the Nazis been willing to let them get into bed with them.
>What is even more serious is that when confronted with the facts relating
>to the Watch Tower German Declaration of 1933, the Society’s spokesmen have
>denied them categorically. In 1985, when I published a brief synopsis of
>the nature of the Declaration in my book Apocalypse Delayed,[20]
>Watch Tower officials attacked me in the strongest terms, practically calling
>me a liar.
>The Society’s public relations officer for Canada, Walter
>Graham, claimed “the declaration was neither to placate Hitler nor
>anti-Semitic,” and he said respecting me:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Penton does have an axe to grind. He has
>been trying to discredit the Jehovah’s Witnesses ever since he was removed
>from the society.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Yet curiously, he admitted that he had not read the evidence that I had
>presented. He said: We aren’t interested in reading it. We’re not interested
>in what James Penton does, writes or thinks, because he has chosen not to be
>one of us.”[*][21] In a similar
>vein, Eugene Rosam, a senior Watch Tower official of Jewish ancestry,
>refused to comment on Apocalypse Delayed.”We have
>no comment on the publication,” said Rosam. “Anybody can
>write a book and get it published. It’s just surprising some people refer
>to it as if it were Gospel.”[*][22]
>It is not surprising that Jehovah’s Witness leaders are reluctant
>to discuss the nature of the Declaration, the Watch Tower letter to Hitler,
>or the Berlin convention of June 1933 any more than is necessary. After all,
>no religious organization is anxious to broadcast its past sins. Yet the
>cover-up surrounding the nature of those events is hypocritical, especially
>since the Watch Tower Society is so uncharitable towards other religions
>over their collaboration with Nazism. None the less, the Watch Tower Society
>has no other real option than to attempt to continue that cover-up.
>Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the collective body of persons who have
>governed them since 1919 have been and are the “anointed footstep
>followers Jesus Christ, described as `the remaining ones of her [God’s
>heavenly organization’s] seed, who observe the commandments of God and
>have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.'”
>[*][23]
>Thus to admit that they had compromised with a regime such as that of
>Hitler would be contradictory to this claim. On the basis of their own
>teachings, it would make them just another part ofBabylon the
>Great! So in order to demonstrate clearly that the account
>given in this article is historically accurate and that the basic facts
>presented are irrefutable, we reprint full documentation in the pages that
>follow.
>DOCUMENT A
>KONRAD FRANKE’S TESTIMONY
> Konrad Franke, later Watch Tower Society branch servant (director or overseer)
>for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany, was present at the June 26, 1933 Witness
>convention in Berlin. In 1976 Franke gave a series of two part lectures (which
>lasted about three hours in all) in many places throughout West Germany. These
>lectures were entitled “The History of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany.”
>Significantly, they contained information on the 1933 Berlin convention which
>has never been published by the Watch Tower Society. Those lectures were tape
>recorded and have been transcribed in full. The statement which appears below
>is an English translation of remarks taken from them:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>.. At the last moment, therefore, we were invited to a special assembly in
>Prussia, thus Berlin, [to be held] in the Tennis Hall, where a “Declaration”
>was to be presented. Many were now unable to come [to the convention], but I
>had the privilege of traveling with Brother Albert Wandres from Wiesbaden to
>Berlin on a motorcycle through torrential rain. That did not bother us too
>much, but we were shocked when we arrived at the Tennis Hall the next morning
>and did not find that atmosphere which we ordinarily found at [Jehovah’s
>Witness] conventions. When we entered, we found the hall bedecked with Swastika
>flags! But not only that: when the meeting started, it was preluded by a song
>which we had not sung for years, especially not in Germany, because of the
>melody. Though the lyrics were fine, the melody–well, the musicians who are
>here will recognize that the notes were [taken from the] the melody of
>”Deutschland, Deutschland, ber alles”!
> Can you imagine how we felt? Many could not join in the singing; it was just
>as though their throats were throttled. What kind of leaders did we have who
>brought us [into] such dangers–and the danger of faltering under these
>circumstances–instead of helping and supporting us, so that we could take a
>fearless stand [against Nazism]. May all elders who are here among us
>[listening to this lecture] learn something from these examples, and may they
>recognize their responsibilities in such matters in the near future.
> Now the Declaration, which Brother Rutherford had prepared, was approved, and
>every person was instructed to take 250 copies home if he possibly could. If he
>then had the courage to do so, he was to send copies of it by registered mail
>to judges, lawyers, mayors, etc.
> At the time, I sent fifty-two registered letters [with the Declaration], and
>the result was that a few days later I found myself in a concentration camp for
>the first time, when most people had no idea what a concentration camp was.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>DOCUMENT B
>Declaration of Facts
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”This company of German people, who are peaceable and law-abiding citizens
>representing many others from every part of Germany, all of whom are earnestly
>laboring for the highest welfare of the people of this land, being now duely
>assembled at Berlin this 25th day of June, A.D. 1933, do joyfully declare our
>complete devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to his kingdom under Christ
>Jesus, whose shed blood bought the human race. We declare that the holy
>Scriptures set forth in the Bible constitute the Word of Jehovah God given to
>men for their guidance in righteousness, and that the Word of God is the truth,
>and that it is of greatest importance that man have a knowledge of his
>relationship to God. We ask to be judged by the standard of the Word of God.
> “Christ Jesus is Jehovah God’s great Witness to the truth, and as his faithful
>and devoted followers we are, by His grace, witnesses to the truth. The purpose
>of this Declaration is that we may present a true and faithful witness before
>rulers and the people as to the name and purpose of Jehovah God and our
>relation thereto.
> “We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government and
>before the people of this nation; and in order that the name of Jehovah God may
>be exalted in the minds of the people, and that his benevolent purposes be
>better understood and our position fairly placed before the government, we do
>respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and
>impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made.
> “The Scriptures plainly state that the chief opposer of Jehovah God and the
>greatest enemy of mankind is Satan the Devil, whose name is also that of
>Serpent and Dragon. It is written in the Scriptures that Satan, who has long
>been the invisible ruler of this world, deceives and blinds the people to the
>truth in order that the light of and concerning Jehovah God and Christ Jesus
>may not shine into the minds of men. (2 Corinthians 4: 3,4) Frequently by
>fraud, subtility [sic] and deception Satan has induced honest persons to
>war with each other, in order that he might turn them all away from God and
>destroy them. Above all things, the people need to know Jehovah God and his
>gracious provision for their general welfare.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Jews
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”By the term `clergy’, as used in our literature, reference is made to the
>class of professed religious teachers, priests and Jesuits who employ improper
>political means to accomplish their ends and join forces even with those who
>deny God and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the same class to whom Jesus
>referred as his persecutors. We have no criticism of any honest religious
>teacher.
> “When Jesus went to the Jews to tell them of the truth, it was the Jewish
>clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him
>and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and
>offenses. They refused to hear the truth, and addressing them Jesus said: “Why
>do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of
>your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a
>murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth
>in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and
>the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.’ (John
>8: 43-45) Although the Pharisees and priests then claimed to represent Jehovah
>God Jesus told them that they were in fact the representatives of Satan the
>Devil.
> “We have no fight with any persons or religious teachers, but we must call
>attention to the fact that it is generally those who claim to represent God and
>Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the
>governments and nations. As true followers of Christ Jesus we are to expect
>such opposition, and we mention it here in explanation of why we have been
>misrepresented before the rulers of this nation. To his faithful followers
>Jesus said: `Remember the word I said unto you, The servant is not greater than
>his lord. If they [the false religious teachers] have persecuted me, they will
>also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.’
>(John 15: 20) Furthermore, Jesus said that this same class of men would cause
>his true followers to be wrongfully charged before the ruling powers, his
>language being: `But take heed to yourselves: for they [false religious
>teachers] shall deliver you up to councils [police power]; and in the
>synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings
>for my sake, for a testimony against them.’ (Mark 13: 9) This explains why
>Jehovah God now permits his faithful witnesses to be misrepresented and
>persecuted, namely, that those of a wrong spirit may identify themselves as
>opponents of God and thus bear witness against themselves. The same
>materialistic spirit that caused the persecution of Jesus Christ now exists and
>is back of the persecution of us his faithful followers.
> “It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support
>for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour
>there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by
>Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the
>Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and
>emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man’s
>good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no
>support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously
>false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy.
> “The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American
>empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting
>and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to
>the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is
>so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York
>which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans
>pay the bills.’ We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as
>the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the
>Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same
>in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Our Literature
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”It is said that our books and like literature, when circulated amongst the
>people, constitute a danger to the peace and safety of the nation. We are
>certain that his conclusion is due to the fact that our books and other
>literature have not been carefully examined by the rulers and hence are not
>properly understood. We respectfully call attention to the fact that these
>books and other literature were written originally in America and the language
>therein used has been adapted to the American style of plainness of speech and,
>when translated into German, the same appears to be harsh. We admit that the
>same truths might be stated in a less blunt and more pleasing phrase, and yet
>the language of these books follows closely the language of the Bible.
> “It should be borne in mind that in the British Empire and in America the
>common people have suffered and are now suffering greatly because of the
>misrule of Big Business and conscienceless politicians, which misrule has been
>and is supported by political religionists, and hence the writers of our books
>or literature have endeavored to employ plain language to convey to the people
>the proper thought or understanding. The language used, however, is not as
>strong or emphatic as that used by Jesus Christ in denouncing the oppressors
>and false teachers of his time.
> “The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big
>Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in
>the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we
>further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big
>Business and the wrongful political religious influence, because the Holy
>Scriptures plainly declare that these oppressive instruments proceed from the
>Devil, and that the complete relief therefrom is God’s kingdom under Christ. It
>is therefore impossible for our literature or our work to in any wise be a
>danger or a menace to the peace and safety of the state.
> “Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching
>the Word of Jehovah God to the people, and that without hindrance. We do not
>object or try to hinder anyone’s teaching or believing what he desires, but we
>only ask the freedom to believe and teach what we conceive the bible to teach,
>and then let the people decide which they wish to believe.
> “To know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for mankind is of most vital
>importance to all persons, because God has declared in His Word that where
>there is no vision or understanding of his Word the people perish. (Proverbs
>29: 18) We have devoted our lives and our material substance to the work of
>enabling the people to gain a vision or understanding of God’s Word, and
>therefore it is impossible for our literature and our work to be a menace to
>the peace and safety of the nation. Instead of being against the principles
>advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles,
>and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full
>realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and
>prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.
> “Our organization seeks neither money nor members, but we are a company or
>organized body of Christian people engaged solely in the benevolent work of
>teaching the Word of God to the people at the least possible cost to them. Our
>organization was originally incorporated in the United States of America in
>1884 under the name of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY, and in 1914
>incorporated under the laws of Great Britain by the name of the INTERNATIONAL
>BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION. These are merely the corporate names of our
>organization for legally carrying forward its work. The Scriptural name by
>which we are known is `Jehovah’s witnesses’. We are engaged solely in a
>benevolent work. The purpose of our organization is to aid the people to
>understand the Bible, which discloses the only possible way for the complete
>relief and blessing for mankind. Our organization has extended its work
>throughout the earth. The education, culture and upbuilding of the people must
>and will come through the agency of God’s kingdom concerning which we teach as
>set forth in the Bible. The salvation of the people depends upon the true
>knowledge of and obedience to Jehovah God and his righteous ways.
> “The people are in great distress and in need of help to understand the reason
>for their unhappy condition and what is the means of relief. The Scriptures,
>when understood, make this matter clear. Instead of collecting money from the
>people and using the same to erect great buildings and to support men in
>luxury, we print the gospel message of God’s kingdom and carry it to the homes
>of the people that they may, at the least inconvenience to themselves, gain a
>knowledge of God’s purposes concerning them.
> “A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that
>the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government
>are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and
>show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be
>attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High.
>Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work’s being a menace to the
>principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such
>high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who desire
>righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from carrying
>it on in this land.
> “For many years our organization has put forth an unselfish and persistent
>effort to do good to the people. Our American brethren have greatly assisted in
>the work in Germany, and with money freely contributed, and that at a time when
>all Germany was in dire distress. Now because it appears that Germany may soon
>be free from oppression and that the people may be lifted up, Satan, the great
>enemy, puts forth his endeavors to destroy that benevolent work in this land..
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>League of Nations
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> “The language in our books or literature concerning the League of Nations has
>been seized upon as a reason for prohibiting our work and the distribution of
>our books. Let us remind the government and the people of Germany that it was
>the League of Nations compact that laid upon the shoulders of the German people
>the great unjust and unbearable burdens. That League of Nations compact was not
>brought forth by the friends of Germany. In America at one time the public
>press announced that 140,000 clergymen had set aside a certain period of time
>in which a concerted movement was to be made, and which was made, to induce the
>American people to fully endorse the League of Nations. It was the Federation
>of Churches in America that issued a manifesto stating that the `League of
>Nations is the political expression of God’s kingdom on earth’, and which by
>them was substituted in the place and stead of God’s kingdom under Christ. It
>was in America that our organization under the visible leadership of its
>president pointed out emphatically that the League of Nations is not an
>institution of Jehovah God, because it is oppressive and unfair. It was that
>condition, existing at the time, which called forth language that appears in
>our books concerning the League of Nations and also calling attention to the
>fact that such League of Nations compact can never bring about the relief and
>blessing of the people, because such relief and blessing can come by adhering
>strictly to the principles laid down in God’s Word and in the manner which
>Jehovah has pointed out.
> “For almost half a century our strictly Christian organization has carried on
>its work in various parts of the earth. Its books are published in more than 50
>languages, and upward of 140 million of these books are in the hands of the
>people. for more than thirty years our books and literature have been
>distributed throughout Germany, and millions of these are now in the hands of
>the German people and are read by the people, all of whom will bear testimony
>to the fact that these books, based strictly on the Bible, are of great help to
>them and upbuild them and give them hope for a realization of the blessings
>which Jehovah God long ago promised. In all these years of our work, and in the
>wide distribution of our books and literature, not one instance can be
>truthfully cited wherein our work or literature has been a menace to the
>government or has in any wise endangered the peace and safety of the nations.
> “The endeavors of our organization being exclusively confined to bearing
>testimony to the name and Word of Jehovah God, it would be entirely
>inconsistent for us to attempt to exert any political influence in the
>governments of this world or to do anything that would endanger the peace and
>safety of the nation. We have no desire nor inclination to do anything except
>top carry out our divinely given commission to proclaim the Word of Jehovah
>God.
> “In America, Canada and other parts of the British Empire the political
>clergy, priests and Jesuits have persistently persecuted and continue to
>persecute those of our organization, and without just cause or excuse; and we
>have every reason to believe that a like influence has been subtilly
>[sic] employed by the great enemy Satan to misrepresent us and our work
>in Germany. We remind you that in the years past the political clergymen have
>brought more sorrow upon the German people than probably any other class of
>men. We have no desire to fight with the clergymen, but we do ask that the
>ruling powers of the nation judge us not by the misrepresentation of such men,
>but that we be judged according to the Word of God and the work we are doing
>consistent therewith. Jehovah God persecutes no on, but permits each one to
>chose his own course, holding him responsible for his acts according to
>knowledge. Jehovah God has emphatically expressed his anger against those who
>do persecute others who are trying to serve him; and this proves that those who
>persecute us do so do not represent God, but that they are incited so to do by
>the enemy of God and man.–Psalm 72:4
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Great Truths
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”The Holy Scriptures, viewed in the light of present-day events which are in
>fulfilment of divine prophecy, disclose that: The time has arrived when Jehovah
>will make his name known to all creation and vindicate his name and clear it
>from the defamation which Satan has placed against that holy name. (Psalm 83:
>18) When Jesus Christ, the Vindicator, ascended into heaven Jehovah commanded
>him to wait until his due time to put the enemy down. That period of waiting
>has now come to an end and God has sent forth his beloved Son to oust the enemy
>and rule in righteousness. (Psalm 110: 1-4; Hebrews 10: 12,13) The world, or
>uninterrupted rule, of Satan has ended, and this began to be evidenced by the
>World War in 1914, and since then until now is the time when the gospel of the
>Kingdom must be told to the people. (Matthew 24: 3,4) Satan has now been cast
>out of heaven and down to the earth and now confines his operations to the
>earth in an endeavor to blind the people to the truth and destroy them, and
>that is the reason for the present-day sufferings of humanity. The prophetic
>words of Jesus now apply: `Woe to the inhabiters [the rulers] of the earth, and
>of the sea [the people in general]! for the devil is come down unto you, having
>grat wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.’–Revelation 12:
>12.
> “The people of Germany have suffered great misery since 1914 and have been the
>victims of much injustice practiced upon them by others. The nationalists have
>declared themselves against all such unrighteousness and announced that `Our
>relationship to God is high and holy’. Since our organization fully endorses
>these righteous principles and is engaged solely in carrying forth the work of
>enlightening the people concerning the Word of Jehovah God, Satan by subtilty
>[sic] endeavors to set the government against our work and destroy it
>because we magnify the importance of knowing and serving God. Instead of our
>organization’s being a menace to the peace and safety of the government, it is
>the one organization standing for the peace and safety of this land.
> We beg to remind all that the great crisis is upon the world because the
>transition period from bad to good is at hand, and the hope of the world is
>God’s kingdom under Christ, for which Jesus taught his followers to constantly
>pray: `Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven.’
> “The power of Jehovah God is supreme and there is no power that can
>successfully resist him. His time to exercise his power in the interest of
>humanity and to the vindication of his great name is here. In this connection
>we respectfully call attention to the admonition and warning of Jehovah God,
>both to the rulers and to the people, which applies to this very hour, wherein
>he says: `Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion…. Be wise now,
>therefor, O ye kings; be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD
>with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye
>perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all
>they that put their trust in him.’–Psalm 2: 6, 10-12.
> “The present government having declared adherence to the aforementioned high
>ideals, we are persuaded that the rulers do not desire to knowingly resist the
>progressive witness work to the name of Jehovah god and his kingdom which we
>are now carrying forward. If our work is merely that of men, it will fall of
>its own weight. If it is of Jehovah God and being carried forward in obedience
>to his commandment, then to resist it means to fight against God.–Acts 5:
>39.
> We therefore appeal to the high sense of justice of the government and nation
>and respectfully ask that the order of prohibition against our work and our
>literature be set aside, and the opportunity be given us to have a fair hearing
>before we are judged. We respectfully ask that the government a committee of
>impartial men to hold conference with a committee of our organization and that
>a fair and impartial examination of our literature and our work be made, to the
>end that all misunderstanding may be removed and that we may without hindrance
>obey Jehovah God’s commandment now applying to us, to wit: `Go through, go
>through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up the highway;
>gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.’–Isaiah 62: 10.
> “The peoples of Germany are a God-fearing people and should not be deprived of
>an opportunity to learn of Jehovah God and of his gracious provision to bring
>lasting peace, prosperity, liberty and everlasting life on earth to all those
>who know and obey him. Let all who love God work together to the honor and
>vindication of his name. All who take a contrary course must take
>responsibility before God; but as for us we will serve Jehovah forever.
> “RESOLVED, That copies of this Declaration be respectfully delivered to high
>officials of the government and that the same be given wide publication to the
>people, that the name of Jehovah may be further known.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Please note that this document is available as a formmated HTML document
>at the following World Wide Web location:-
> http://www.nano.no/~telemark/DnSEng.html
>-=- [Footnotes] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>1 For a full account of Russell’s Zionism, see
>David Horowitz, Pastor Charles Taze Russell: An Early American Christian
>Zionist (New York: Philosophical Library, 1986.
>2 For a Watch Tower review of Life after Rutherford had
>changed W
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:15 PDT 1996
Article: 43057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:18:20 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
1/17/85
Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a cross-examination
that took place the
day before, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust “expert” and author
Raul Hilberg admitted
under oath that after 36 years of studying the Holocaust, 1) he
knew of no documentary
(printed) evidence that the Nazis murdered or planned to murder
Jews in gas chambers, 2)
he had identified large parts of the key “confession” of Kurt
Gerstein as to the “gassings”
as “pure nonsense” and “totally false,” 3) when presenting the
Gerstein “confession” as
proof of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in
order to make his point,
4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 5) he
billed himself as a
Holocaust expert for 18 years before even visiting Auschwitz (he
then spent only one day
there), 6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of
which he was alleged to be
the expert, and 7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew
had been gassed. (see
also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the Globe and
Mail, and the Sault Star of
1/18/85.) Understandably, when called upon to testify again in a
later trial, Hilberg begged
off.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:18:55 PM PDT 1996
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1/12/85
According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had
seen “fourteen foot flames” shooting out of the chimneys of
crematorium at Auschwitz, and
that he was able to tell whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish
Hungarians or skinny
Jewish Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the
crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr. Friedman reversed
himself upon being
presented with details of crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps
Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings. Mr. Friedman
then made the startling
confession that his entire testimony was based on what he had been
told by others.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN slanders Germans
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:19:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4or264$1a[email protected]> <677[email protected]> <4pca4[email protected]> <4phi75[email protected]> <4phq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 1:22:35 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77012 alt.revisionism:43060 soc.culture.jewish:56652
[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Mike Pelletier
> said:
>>Interesting that this topic should come up.
>>Recently, there was an article and a couple of letters published in the
>>Detroit Free Press about the deportation of Ferdinand Hammer from the US
>>as a result of the discovery of his position as a guard at Auchwitz during
>>the war.
>>Both letters to the newspaper seem to ascribe victim status to Hammer,
>>lamenting the fact that if he’d disobeyed orders, he would have been shot
>>by his commanding officers, and that he’s not to blame, the government of
>>Nazi Germany is to blame.
>Rubbish. There are lots of examples of SS who refused to obey orders in
>this regard, or refused to serve in a death camp, and I am unaware of any
>who were shot for it. Most were simply sent home.
As you know, all camp assignments of any kind were voluntary.
>>What sprang immediately to mind, and from my fingertips as I composed my
>>own letter to the editor, was the fact that Krystallnacht was not a result
>>of government orders. Nor were there guns to the backs of the crowd of
>>politicians who stood up and cheered as Hitler shouted “…[this] will
>>result in the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe!”
>Right on the second point. Wrong on the first. The Kristallnacht was
>ordered by the Government (Hitler, Goebbels and Heydrich) and was carried
>out by the SS and the SA.
Of course he lied to his diary just for the fun of it but you know
Goebbels was not surprised by it, he simply said that he was in his
diary.
I regret that does match the truth the great McFly wants to be true.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43061 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:26:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 3:29:18 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Is the problem getting through to you yet?
>Truth to tell, Giwer-troll, your problem got through to all reasonable
>people many thousand posts ago. And you can rest assured that every
>post you make confirms the certainty that the problem is entirely
>yours – and not only that, but it is entirely of your own making.
>Very sad. I think you might have a mind (and possibly even that famed
>163 IQ) But, as someone once said, a mind is a terrible thing to
>waste.
Well taken, Fat Broad.
But you have never revealed who you are laying to get a co-status when
you are so profoundly ignorant of anything involved in the Nizkor vanity
site.
Let me guess. About 18 stone. How close am I? And uglier than a human
hair doormat to boot.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this …
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:18:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:21:02 PM PDT 1996
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Amazing what some of the heroes of the holohuggers will say when under
oath.
1/24/85
Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom,
states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were gassed at
Auschwitz, in spite of the fact
that the entire number of Jews deported from France were only
75,721. Vrba claims he
arrived at his count “scientifically” by having listened to the
language spoken by the inmates
at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The author of “I
Cannot Forgive” next
confessed that his book was “an artistic picture … not a document
for a court,” in spite of
the fact that Vrba’s testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee
Board and the Auschwitz
Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his written and
pictorial descriptions of
Auschwitz crematoria were a result of guessing, based on “what I
heard it might look like.”
Oops!
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43071 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Challenging hate is antisemitic
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:49:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 5:52:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
4/20/88:
Speaking at a conference on Group Defamation and the Freedom of
Speech, keynote
guest Elie Wiesel urges that freedom of speech and inquiry on the
alleged Holocaust be
proscribed. Wiesel called revisionists “the most despicable of our
enemies,” and claimed
that French revisionist scholar Dr. Robert Faurrison was “haunting”
and “persucuting” him.
When Wiesel was asked if his admonition to every Jew to maintain “a
zone of hate —
healthy, virile hate — for what the German personifies and for
what persists in the German”
might qualify as “group defamation,” conference organizer Monroe
Freedman intervened to
denounce the question as anti-Semitic.
=====
It looks like Faurrison is to Wiesel as I am to Dahlman.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:20 PDT 1996
Article: 43072 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gerstein confesses
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:52:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 5:55:46 PM CDT 1996
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again and again and again
4/26/45:
The date SS officer Kurt Gerstein’s first two (of at least six)
“confessions.” Confession 1 is
handwritten in French. Confession 2 is typewritten in French, dated
April 26, 1945 (also
presented as Nuernberg document PS-1553; rejected by the IMT but
accepted by the
AMT!). Confession 3 is typewritten in German and is dated May 4,
1945. Confession 4 is
handwritten in French, dated May 6, 1945. Confession 5 is
typewritten in French, dated May
6, 1945. And Confession 6 is typewritten in German, dated May 6,
1945. Also, there are
three distinct versions of Confession 5.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43073 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: When I said it
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:26:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:29:17 AM CDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>See previous response…applies here also. Seeking some credibility,
>Mr. Giwer, sir? Won’t work!
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts her that I was wrong.
Dear Chuckles,
Not ONE of your fellow holohuggers has bothered to cite you as a
refrence. They know you are making it up.
Realize that you are being tolerated, not accepted.
Email them and ask.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43074 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: what is a picture without a caption?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:32:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 6:35:11 PM CDT 1996
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Rather what do we do with people who falsely caption pictures to promote
lies?
12/16/83:
The West German weekly newspaper Deutsche National-Zeitung
publishes a sketch made
by Simon Wiesenthal (which first appeared in Wiesenthal’s 1946
book, KZ Mauthausen)
that supposedly shows three Mauthausen inmates who had been bound
to posts and
sadistically put to death by the Germans. Unfortunately for friends
of the Holocaust myth
(and Wiesenthal’s almost non-existent credibility), the newspaper
also reprints three photos
from the July 11, 1945 Life magazine that record the firing-squad
execution of three
German soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge. The connection?
Wiesenthal’s sketch is
shown to be nothing more than a poor rendition of the Life photos
with a politically-correct
caption. For those familiar with Wiesenthal’s book, you will
remember that he also cites a
“confession” of camp Commandant Ziereis that 4 million inmates were
gassed to death at
Mauthausen, when it is well known that no more than 206,000 people
were ever sent to
Mauthausen and its satellite camps.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:42:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p9hr[email protected]> <4p9no[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 11:45:35 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4p[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>> In article <4[email protected]>, [email protected] says…
>> >
>> >[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>It is calculated that 1,500 Allied bombers flew over Germany on February
>> >>14, 1945. Each of these bombers was capable of carrying 200,000 tons in
>> >>incendiary bombs. Although skeptics claim that that amount of tonnage
>>
>> >This is so ludicrous. Saying somethin is ” capable of carrying 200,000
>> >tons” doesn’t mean it did. Saying “each of our bombers can carry
>> >200,000 tons in incendiary bombs” doesn’t say that they did. Your
>> >”Therefore 300,000,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Dresden” is
>> >pretty darn weak without actual RAF documents saying how what plane
>> >was loaded with what to go where.
>>
>> They must have been H-U-G-E planes to carry 200,000 tons. Since the
>payload of
>> a Flying Fortress was far less than this and not even B52’s can hit that
>> payload I’d say he is pissing in the wind.
>Giving Ehrlich606 the benifit of the doubt, I’d say it was simply a
>mistake on his part. The normal payload of the B-17, for instance, was
>6,000 lbs (3 tons). The Lancaster had a payload of 12,000 lbs (6 tons).
>Obviously, 1,500 B-17s would have a combined payload of 4,500 tons. For
>Lancs it would have been 9,000 tons.
Not only do you folks fabricate your Holocaust crap you attempt to fake
your way out of being suckered in by such an obvious joke.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:23 PDT 1996
Article: 43079 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:02:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <199606080706[email protected]> <4pf9ti$1[email protected]> <4plean[email protected]> <4pmnv3[email protected]> <4pnokf$25k[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Johan Carlson wrote:
>All this about the communists and Jews in the Netherlands are nothing
>but complete nonsense. There is not an ounce of truth in Mr. Apollos
>argument. Perhaps it’s just a stupid a joke; but more likely i beleive
>he’s another anti-semite shithead just like Mr. Giwer. Although Mr.
>Giwer is a lot more refined in his use of the English language.
Be careful. That observation is a violation of holohugger dogma.
>As you might notice english is not my native language and therefore Mr.
>Giwers ‘word games’ can seem a little strange to me. That’s not to say
>that I’m stupid (as Mr. Giwer once implied).
That is SOP in this newsgroup. But I have never critiqued your use of
english as have the holohuggers.
This b.s. about Dutch being
>a communist state involved in some great conspiracy with the Jews is not
>a Giwer invention though (correct me if I’m wrong ;).
>Mr. Johnson did well in arguing against Apollos article. But why bother;
>It is simply not true!
Save there was no such argument.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:24 PDT 1996
Article: 43081 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:37:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq3[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with
>>the long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.
>[snip]
> It has been discussed here before. The pub is for unpowered natural
>ventilation in a normal living space, with all the nooks and crannies.
>Sorry, it is not the same. Notice that they say to open the windows, not
>switch on the ventilation system.
How about the color not being blue?
> Then too, why should you believe the pub any more than the label that
>said that the product deteriorates in three months? Or more than a patent
>for that matter? If patents cannot be used as evidence, I fail to see why
>a user’s manual should be any better.
The pub disagrees with the one line from the patent that has otherwise
remainded a secret despite repeated requests for the entire patent.
But of course I am more than willing to go along with the standards of
evidence I have proposed from the beginning. Are you willing to do so?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 43082 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lack of that pesky evidence thing again
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:47:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>1/28/87
>> SS Gruppenfuehrer Gerhard Klopfer, who served as state secretary in
>>the Party
>> Chancellery under Martin Bormann and was the last surviving member
>>of the Wannsee
>> Conference (at which it was alleged that details were worked out
>>for the “final solution”)
>> dies in Heilbronn, West Germany. Klopfer was charged with war
>>crimes at Nuernberg, but
>> the case was dropped for lack of evidence, and in fact Klopfer was
>>permitted to resume
>> practicing law in 1956. This lends credence to the proposition that
>>the Wannsee
>> Conference had nothing to with with an extermination program.
>Moron! You’re logic, as always, is flawed.
What does “dropped for lack of evidence” mean to you?
It lends NO credence to the
>proposistion that the Wansee Conference had nothing to do with an
>extermination program.
Reading the protocol is clearly enough evidence that there was no
extermination program. Perhaps you should read it some time. The usual
gang of holohuggers here refuses to read it.
>It suggests only what it suggests … that the prosecuters had
>insufficient evidence for the charges against him
As his name is on the document and he was clearly a participant I fail
to see what insufficient evidence there was.
>If your ability to read and comprehend what you read is so poor I
>suggest you might wish to undertake a remedial reading comprehension
>class and in the meantime limit yourself to Dick, Jane, and Sally.
>See Giwer. See Giwer lie. Lie. Lie. Lie.
>See Giwer duck. Duck. Duck. Duck.
Defend your gassing all you wish in any way you can. It is still a
fabrication.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43083 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43085 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:35:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pgj5k$kcj@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4piev9$7[email protected]> <4pjb9u$eoo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pjchj$h3n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <4pkque$o[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>>In <4pjchj$[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>writes:
>>>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>>>rate.
>>>>
>>>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>>>the
>>>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>>>that
>>>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>>>construction of crematoria.
>>>>
>>>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>>>I have
>>>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.
>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards
>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not
>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>What questionable statements did the soviets produce. Oh, and don’t do
>the silly “read the NG” cop out line. If missed it then repost it. It
>shouldn’t cause you much strain, you like to post. It would be nice if
>you would post something of substance rather than trollisms. Come on,
>I think you can do it. :-/
What is your problem? I am supposed to look thinks up but you are too
good for it? Why is that?
Or did you miss the testimony the Russians produced to try to get
Germans executed for Katyn Woods?
Everyone agrees that was a lie. Yet the Soviets had the statements to
back up the claim.
Did you miss the description of the steaming rooms and the boiler and
the piping at Treblinka? The subject is something like “Hey Keren”.
That was a Soviet produced story also. As was the story crematoria at
Treblinka and that more were going to be built to handle the load. That
was a Soviet story also.
So why would you trust any Soviet produced statements? And remember
that they were responsible for ALL investigations of everything that was
in the territories they liberated and for the parts of Germany they
conquered.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 43086 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book?
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:28:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pi[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Nele Abels wrote:
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes
>>> that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you
>>> claiming generated the details?
>> You are changing the subject. We are talking about “details” but the documentary evidence — including his own memoranda — used =
>as evidence against Pohl. What is the basis for your claim that those memoranda were “generated” by the Soviets? If you have nothi=
>ng more than a claim you invented, stop making the silly claim.
>>- YFW
>Read a book? What do you expect? It’s even too much for Giwer to read a
>bleeding post in its whole length – not to speak of understanding it.
>Please compare “Giwer caught lying – again (uncorrupted version)”
Since you appear to be new here let me introduce you to this person.
He says he is an attorney. He has said that witness give evidence vice
testimony in court. He even implied that the oath for a witness is,
“The evidence I am about to give…”
Now that you know that person why would you take his mere assertion as
true? Please explain.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43097 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:51:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>
>>>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp
>>>guards
>>>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones
>>>not
>>>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>>
>>>Read the post carefully. I didn’t mention “questionable statements
>>>produced by the Soviets.”
>>
>>>Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of
>>>former camp guards and former prisoners.
>>
>> Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you
>>claim that is true, where did this occur?
>Dodge the question with another totally irrelevant question as usual
>Matt.
The only question in this little exchange in mine. You appear to have
such a knee jerk response that you see questions where there are no
questions.
Do you also smell land where they be no land?
>>>Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur?
>>
>> I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only.
>>Why would you confuse the two?
>He has confused nothing Matt. He is trying to pin you down. And you
>dodge the question again. Same old Giwer shit.
>Lets see you answer his question Matt. Do you honestly believe the
>Holocaust did not occur?
You folks constantly confuse belief with knowledge.
You folks also never get around to defining what you mean. The SWC did
do that. I posted it here just last week. They restrict it to Jews
only which is ridiculous. They also have the number wrong.
So why do you not post your definition first? Then I will tell you if I
have found convincing evidence for your definition. I may even post
contradictory evidence.
>Watch him avoid this one and change the subject again.
>Giwer the Liar!
You have still not matured. You have come into this late along with
Hart. You are setting discussion back months.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:29 PDT 1996
Article: 43103 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Web-sites revised listing
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:06:18 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bd[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>>Well, Giwer is finally getting some fine fine recognition! 🙂
>>!>Matt Giwer’s World
>>!>http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>Why not a Giwer’s World? We all knew he lived in a world of his own!!
Certainly. Save I got the idea from Bruce Williams.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43109 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:39:24 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>>>>> It started as an observation that there were four causes of death
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution
>>>>>>>>and vacuum chambers.
>>>> The subject is Pohl, convicted of a crime that never occurred.
>>>You said (see some lines above) that the subject was the cause of
>>>death at Treblinka. Could you be a little consistent ?
>> Pohl was convicted of steaming people to death at Treblinka. Remember
>>that point? What is particular do you find inconsistant about that?
>To remember more what was the subject of this thread, read your own
>post a few lines above. The point became a Diesel motor exhaust as a
>possible (certain) cause.
And? This is about steaming. Even though Green calls it an absurd
idea, Keren is trying to claim that it was confusion by Polish spies who
could not get close enough to see what was happening and therefore
confused oil vapor with steam.
I am simply demonstrating that it was not based upon any long range
confusion, unless people were convicted upon such “testimony.” But I
have now added a description right from the IMT describing the rooms and
the boiler and the piping.
So we now have equally credible testimony of both steaming AND diesel
exhaust.
I have also taken the liberty of posting testimony of electrocution at
Treblinka.
Is the problem getting through to you yet?
>>>>>Gerstein, Pfannenstiel aso will be sufficient. They never said that
>>>>>oil was the cause of death. They said only that in 28mn-32mn the
>>>>>vitims were dead, with a stopwatch. Pfannenstiel said it too to
>>>>>Rassinier, a well-known revisionist who would be glad to hear another
>>>>>claims.
>>>> Wasn’t Gerstein the man who committed suicide immediately after
>>>>his confession and who body was immediately lost? Maybe it was
>>>>cremated in 20 minutes.
>>>You’re indeed very well-informed, in you own way. He surrendered in
>>>April 45, in Rottweil. He commited suicid in July (25) 45, in the jail
>>>of ‘Cherche-Midi” (Paris). Your ‘immediately’ can be translated in 3
>>>months. His body was never lost, except in the mind of some
>>>revisionists you have certainly read.
>> You folks never include such interesting information rather you distort
>>what happened. For example …
>> You have only said that he committed suicide three months after his
>>surrender. That is a distortion you are trying to link with the
>>confession.
>> I stated his suicide was immediately (two days if I remember correctly)
>>after the date on his confession. And then in fact the body was lost
>>which I find quite as amazing as the FBI losing a steel door from their
>>property room. Just where do you lose a body?
>It is certainly a sort of personal remembering. When Gerstein
>surrendered in April 45, he spent in this place, in semi-liberty, a
>whole month to write reports in French, German, English. Six reports,
>if I am right. After this, and not two days after, he was jailed in
>Paris, and committed suicide, in July (25).
All different, several variations of one of them, and none admitted into
evidence at the IMT due to lack of credibility.
>YOU are trying to link it with the confession. He dyed two months
>after writing his reports. It’s easy to find what happened to his
>corpse (try to read André Chelain, “La thèse de Nantes et l’affaire
>Roques,”, Paris, Polémique, 1989).
Six confessions in one month. Fascinating. Very prolific. Also quite
the linguist. Lets see how much I remember here. The first is
handwritten in French. The second is typed in French and different from
the handwritten version. That’s about it. The post with the details
will be coming through soon.
>> It is strange that people ask such questions when the shelf life is
>>until the can rusts away and the stuff leaks out.
>You’re perhaps yourself a little rusty and leaking out.
Cute and to the point. It was a stupid question.
>>>But Pfannenstiel was still alive when Rassinier met him. And he said
>>>the same thing that Gerstein, excepted what involved him personnally.
>> What does this have to do with the subject of a written confession?
>Pfannenstiel wrote too his own confession. Since he din’t know that
>Gerstein was dead, he admitted himself to have seen a gassing in
>Belzec. He said he wasn’t in Treblinka, but he knew too that it was in
>this place that Gerstein testimonied about his speech, about the
>greatness of the work, the importance of the mission.
>Do you then guess what is the relation with Gerstein’s written
>confession ?
No reason to guess. Why not tell me?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43111 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent False Witness
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 02:42:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pd7b1$cc[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:45:34 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
> Here’s a question I have regarding Elie Wiesel; I’ll be
>interested to see what sort of responses I get.
> Wiesel has chronicled his experiences during the events we call
>the Holocaust. Alexsandr Solzhinietsyn (sp?) has chronicled his
>experiences in the Siberian gulags of the Stalinist and post-Stalinist
>era.
> Why is it I don’t see posts about “Solzhenietsyn the Weasel?”
>”Solzhenietsyn the Liar” etc? After all, according to many revisionists
>there’s a concerted effort to produce “anti-German” propaganda and to
>minimize the excesses committed by the Soviets. Surely _The First
>Circle_ or _The Gulag Archipelago_ are pretty nasty condemnations of the
>Soviet Union — at least as inflammatory as some of Wiesel’s work.
> Where are the “Soviet apologists” I keep hearing about, and why
>aren’t they launching personal attacks on _One Day In The Life of Ivan
>Denisovich?_
> Could it be that there are more “anti-Semites” than
>”anti-Soviets?”
The Soviet apologists were doing exactly what you suggest until
Krushchev openly tried to abolish them and almost had an early
retirement over even talking about them.
After that the Soviet apologists were saying it was a long tradition and
that the prisons were supposed to be worse than the work camps. The
apologists were doing this regarding Solzhenietsyn’s work.
And then when Gorby simply abolished them they were left with nothing to
say.
Beyond that Solzhenietsyn did not report fanciful things that violated
physical law. He did not report a grand string of coincidences. He did
not change his story over time.
And he has not advocated preserving a personal hatred for all what is in
the Russian spirit.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43113 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Challenging hate is antisemitic
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:35:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:38:58 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Speaking at a conference on Group Defamation and the Freedom of
>>Speech, keynote
>> guest Elie Wiesel urges that freedom of speech and inquiry on the
>>alleged Holocaust be
>[blah, blah, blah deleted]
>Matt, you’ve been posting on BBSs and newsgroups for what, ten years?
>Twenty? Haven’t you yet figured out how to format a message? Ask your
>kid. Maybe he can explain this to you.
I have. The format is not to delete things like challenging Wiesel’s
call to preserve hatred for Germans is called antisemitic. Inserting
“blah, blah, blah” for his call for ethnic hatred is not considered an
honest editting style. To try to cover his call for ethnic hatred is
not considered an honest discussion.
To attempt to cover his racism is not considered honest.
But you do know that.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 43115 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:03:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4o[email protected]> <4p[email protected]> <4p0u1v[email protected]> <4p6[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >One of Matt Giwer’s more bizarre trolls lately has been to claim that
>> >witness accounts of gassing victims’ screaming is proof that the accounts
>> >must be false, since, as everybody knows, men do not scream in mortal
>> >terror. Only women do.
>>
>> >Leaving aside the fact that I personally have, on at least three
>> >occasions (ask my wife!) had nightmares from which I woke up screaming,
>> >and the fact that I screamed when a I became aware that a burglar was in my
>> >apartment (ask my ex-wife…no connection between the burglary and the
>> >divorce, BTW), let’s look at a historical even, which perhaps Mr. Giwer
>> >will see the need to revise in light of his great knowledge of human
>> >behavior.
>>
>> >I just finished James Welch’s outstanding book _Killing Custer_, which
>> >focuses on the Native Americans’ viewpoint on the events surrounding the
>> >battle of the Little Bighorn. In the afterword, filmmaker Paul Stekler
>> >(with whom Welch co-wrote the script for a documentary that this book
>> >grew out of) cites a letter written by Private Charles Windolph, a
>> >survivor of Major Marcus Reno’s unsuccessful first charge on the Indian
>> >camp at the Little Bighorn. Steckler writes that Windolph described how
>> >”Soldiers staggered aimlessly, many wounded and bleeding, while
>> >terror-stricken stragglers fell through a disorganized skirmish line at
>> >the top of the ridge. . . . The wounded lay screaming on the ground, many
>> >crying for water in the oppressive heat.” (P. 287)
>>
>> >Prediction: Mr. Giwer will say that it doesn’t count that these men were
>> >screaming, since they were wounded. I believe he _does_ allow an
>> >exception for men to scream in pain, just not in terror… How exactly he
>> >knows what part of a scream comes from pain and what part from terror
>> >could be an interesting question for this expert on human behavior to
>> >explain.
>>
>> Any asshole can predict what he has already read me say. And you
>> have proved you are in the any asshole category. How about a
>> real prediction next time?
>I guess I can also reliably predict that you will continue both to object
>to ad hominem comments even as you call others “asshole”….
>I notice that you don’t address the possibility that these men were
>screaming both from pain and terror (and any realistic understanding of
>the behavior of Custer’s troops must acknowledge that they were indeed
>panicked. I must again ask: how would you differentiate between screams
>of pain and screams of terror?
If says clearly, the wounded lay screaming. The “terror stricken
stragglers” are not described as screaming. Can you not read?
Or is it that what you can imagine has been elevated to the level of
conclusive evidence?
>> >But let us explore this fascinating generalization of Mr. Giwer’s more
>> >thoroughly: Do men scream from terror? I’m pretty sure I do,
>>
>> Really? For help or just scream? But you are only “pretty
>> sure.” What else do you have going for your position?
>When the burglar was in my apartment, I screamed in pure terror at waking up
>and realizing that someone was in the room. “Pretty sure” is an ironic
>understatement, snookums. (Bonus points if you can spot the irony in the
>preceding sentence!)
Frankly I do not believe you as it is unclear how you could have been
anything but surprised upon just waking up.
>> Let’s give Mr. Giwer’s weighty objection to the
>> >authenticity of eyewitness testimony the serious empirical investigation
>> >it deserves.
>> As you know, descriptions of US gas chamber executions do not
>> include screams from pain.
>I’d be willing to cede that, Mr. Giwer. Now, have you done a
>comprehensive search of all accounts of executions to see whether any
>prisoners screamed in terror of their impending death?
More than enough to find it absent. Crying, can’t walk (the more common
male response to terror, loss of motor control to some degree,) trying
to fight on the negative side and general calmness for the most part.
>I have a friend who’s a clinical psychologist. I’ll ask him if men
>scream in terror, and post his answer.
Don’t forget, pure screams, not for help, not from pain, nothing but
screaming. You might also ask if women really do it outside of fiction
for any other purpose than that they know it gets men to come running to
help.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43117 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:12:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:15:53 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article , [email protected]
>(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
>> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
>[snip]
>> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>I stand corrected.
>> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
>absorption
>> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>>
>> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>>
>> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
>Undoubtably true. I’ve never _claimed_ to be a chemist…. But thanks for
>the info! };->
So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
“eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
gone, not when fresh.
So we are left with fabricated stories from eyewitnesses as always.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:34 PDT 1996
Article: 43118 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (1/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:19:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43118 sci.chem:37105
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >BEGIN — Cut Here — cut here
>> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>>
>> Next time …
>>
>> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine….
Anyone believing the Mac has anything to do with the market, including
all UNIX variations is an idiot.
Beyond that, as spaces have been the fundamental parsing rule since
computers were programmed with patch panels (early 1950s) it is quite
difficult to believe you are telling the truth. Are you really claiming
the Mac OS knows when and when not to ignore spaces?
>> 2) Post a color picture.
>The photo was b/w.
That does not prove blue any more than the fanciful picture of Jewish
women beind shot proved they were either women or Jewish.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:35 PDT 1996
Article: 43119 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:21:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeff Frane) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:16:40 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jeff Frane) wrote:
>>
>>>The Turner Diaries was clearly written as a propaganda piece — or, in
>>>any event, it has been *used* that way by White Separatists. You can
>>>define it as “fiction” if you want, but “fiction” can just as easily
>>>be propaganda as any non-fiction.
>>
>>>To claim that “fiction advocates nothing” is either ignorant or a lie.
>>>Shall we claim that Ayn Rand was advocating nothing in her fiction?
>>>Or Jack London? Or George Orwell? Or Aldous Huxley?
>>
>> Right. Ayn Rand was advocating the economic collapse of the US.
>Uh, where does this come from?
>You, Matt, made the claim that “fiction advocates nothing”, which is
>clearly utter bullshit. I offered a couple of examples of advocacy
>fiction. What that has to do with Ayn Rand “advocating the economic
>collapse of the US” is obviously nothing, except in the disordered
>shadows of your own mind.
You have never read Atlas Shrugged obviously.
>> You have a lot to learn. Particularly in regard to the metophoric use
>>of fiction as advocacy.
>I have a lot to learn? From you, I suppose? You can’t even spell
>metaphoric!
When all else fails, attack the spelling. It is all rote memorization
minds like yours can handle.
>> You also have a lot to learn about the use of fiction to make money.
>Considering you know absolutely *Nothing* about my involvement with
>the publishing world, this is treading on thin ice, even for you. Not
>to mention that *nothing* in anything I wrote could lead you to
>believe that. We have yet to even discuss the question of making
>money at writing fiction — do we have a failed fiction writer here,
>Matt? Hmmm?
I could care less about what you have ever written or sold. However to
pretend that a work could not be written solely to make money regardless
of content does indicate a degree of ignorance of writing for profit I
would describe as profound.
>> It is also good to see you admit you have not read it.
>What haven’t I read ? Fountainhead? or the Turner Diaries?
Turner Diaries of course. Atlas Shrugged certainly.
>Yes, it’s true, I have not read the Turner Diaries. I see no reason
>to read such pablum, any more than I read books in the Babysitter Club
>series.
It is good to see that you are willing to continue your ignorance and
let others form your opinion for you. Let me guess, you did not read
The Bell Curve either.
I have read an excerpt, however, in which the brave boys drag
>some people out and lynch them — or was that the novel that started
>the KKK? I have a hard time keeping the White Boy Wet Dreams
>straight; they are all so predictable and childish.
As you have not read it, how do you know it was a true except? How do
you know it did not come from an anti-KKK novel?
You don’t know a damned thing about it and you are running off at the
mouth as though you know something. You should at least be honest and
credit the people from whom you stole your opinion with the opinion.
In other words stop saying “it is” (as you admit you do not know) rather
say “John Smith says it is” which would be honest. Alternatively you
could say “the excerpt I read, purported to come from the book, was
…”. That would show honesty also.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:36 PDT 1996
Article: 43121 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos deny the story
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:13:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>The title of this thread should be called “Moran denies the photos” given
>that Moran completely and unequivocably misrepresents both the photo in
>_Scientific Amercian_ and the sequence of events that led to the final
>destruction of the Kremas. Moran’s claim that the Nazis did not start the
>demolition of the Kremas months prior to their actual destruction in
>January 1945 and the Russian liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau is clearly
>contradict the by eywitness testimony, photographs, and SS reports that
>clearly detail otherwise.
>> Published in “Scientific American” March, 1996, “The Art and
>> Science of Photoreconnaissance” is a aerial photograph of the
>> Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.
>> Even though the Holocaust story has it that all the crematoriums
>> were destroyed by the Nazis this photograph taken Jan. 14, 1945, four
>> days before the Soviet liberation of the camp on Jan. 18th, shows
>> three of them intact. Cremas II, III and V.
>”…This image, taken as Russian troops approached on January 14, 1945,
>shows the snow that Elie Weisel, who was in the complex at the tiome,
>wrote of in _Night_. The photograph indicates that the gas chambers have
>been or are being destroyed and that the evacuation of the complex had
>begun….” (Scientific Amercian_, March 1996; p.84 .)
Pardon me for barging in here, but of what significance is there to a
mention of snow in Poland in January? Does it mean you would believe I
was in Poland in January if I said there was snow on the ground?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:36 PDT 1996
Article: 43154 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:32:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 127
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklrb$t[email protected]> <4plqs[email protected]> <4pmte[email protected]> <4pn[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>[followups trimmed to alt.revisionism only]
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>>>>see?
>>>>
>>>>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>>>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>>>>blue silica gel?
>>>>
>>>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>>>>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>>>>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>>>>once.)
>>
>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>>Yes or no?
>>
>> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust
>>stories. If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
>>
>> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don’t
>>forget the pea sized silica gel.
>Pressac states in the text accompanying Photo 20, p. 21
>”500 grams can of Zyklon-B without its label, containing small
>bluish pellets of porous silica, known as ERCO, which absorbed
>the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic and
>sternutatory warning agent. These are the *crystals* of Zyklon-B.
>Other fixing agents were also used, either a reddish-brown granular
>mass (Diagriess), or disks of ligneous fiber. (Photo 8 which
>Eichmann knew, probably because he had seen them used in the
>disinfestations of the Auschwitz main camp blocks before or at
>the time of his deciding with Hoess on their homicidal use.”
>Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
Too bad your pharmacist never read the Degesh publication. Too bad this
supposed pharmacist never took enough chemistry courses to learn
something covered in high school chemistry. It appears he is at best an
old time apothecary dealing in healing herbs rather than what we would
call a pharmacist in the US.
Think of if. A pharmacist who never took a chemistry course. It almost
makes one question his claim to being a pharmacist.
In fact, no almost about it. If it is a pharmacist he would not have
made that mistake.
>As for size, Mr. Mazal has helped us out a bit:
>
>Silica gel can be purchased in a huge variety of mesh sizes. In
>my (now quite remote) days designing gas chromatographs, we
>used silica gel in a 100 mesh size as a column packing for the
>separation of organic and inorganic gases. 100 mesh is a very
>fine powder.
>
>Silica gel is also used as a dessicant and is commercially available
>in mesh sizes from 4 mesh to 28 mesh. What do “mesh sizes” mean?
>The U.S. Bureau of Standards defines the following:
>Size 4 = 4.75mm
>Size 6 = 3.35mm
>Size 8 = 2.36mm
>Size 10 = 2.00mm
>Size 12 = 1.70mm
>etc.
It is unclear what any US standard has to do with the subject but it
would appear by this scale the size would be about 000000 to get up to
pea sized.
>One can also purchase bulk silica gel in lumps the size of an orange.
>Giwer can determine this for himself. If he is the “great scientist”
>that he claims to be, he will have access to one of the standard
>laboratory supply catalogues. I have, for this particular exercise,
>used the: _
>THOMAS SCIENTIFIC: Scientific Apparatus and Reagents_
>(609) 467-2000
>The references to silica gel are on pages 561, 1881 and 1882.
But we also know that the coloration comes from the addition of cobalt
chloride to indicate it is dry. As it was being soaked in HCN it would
never be water wet and there would be no reason to add the dessication
indicator and therefore it would not appear blue. But you know that.
>A curious addition to the silica gel story is that it is also available
>as an “indicating type, changing color from deep blue to pink as
>relative humidity increases from 20% to 60%.
As I said, you know the indicator is added when it is used as a
dessicant.
>
Thank you for posting the expert opinion of a pharmacist who managed to
prove that crematoria were constructed.
However, by now you should have read what I have posted from the long
secret Degesh publication. And when you read it you will know why the
people claiming to have it would not post it. It clearly states that
the carrier is either wood pulp or diatomite. No silica gel at all.
There is other information in it. Most of which points to the reason it
has never be posted, for example the ten hours to air out after it is
used.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:37 PDT 1996
Article: 43158 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No answer
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:53:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pln[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:56:29 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> All I have asked for is the number of Jews who were subject to summary
>>execution solely because they were Jewish.
> The question is not clearly phrased. Do you mean how many Jews were
>killed immediately upon capture or arrival at a death camp for no other
>reason than being Jewish? Or how many were potential victims?
The number that were in fact so killed in either manner solely for that
reason. No potentials, actuals.
How much more clear can I make it?
>> No one has been willing to give a number.
> If you were to ask how many people were living in the United States, I
>would not be willing to give a number, either. Even the Census Bureau
>cannot guarantee that it has counted everyone and of course even if it did
>its number would become outdated with the first birth after it is
>tabulated. The best one can do is a range.
Fine, what is the range?
>> Am I the only one who finds it strange there is no such number?
> There are various estimates. You can, I am sure, find them in
>different books. If you are too lazy to go to the library, I am sure you
>can find some numbers on Nizkor. But I will invoke a Giwer Rule: do your
>own homework. I do not play games that apply to only one person. Sorry
>about that.
That is not the point. Any number I come up with someone will disagree
with. You folks will NOT agree upon a number among yourselves. So I
want your number or range of numbers.
>>From the partial answers I have over 3 million and not all the “death
>>camps” have reported in.
> Well, just for openers the Einsatzgruppen sent love letters to the
>folks back home claiming to have done for a million or so. At their
>trials, the leaders did allow as to how they inflated them a la Vietnam
>body counts. To what extent this is true is something we’ll probably
>never know. They probably didn’t know the exact number themselves.
So if your position is that no one can ever know then any number is good
enough including zero. There has to be a better number than zero.
> Now, how many were killed solely because of being Jews, and how many
>killed because they were not only Jews but dirty rotten Bolsheviks as
>well? I can’t help you with that one. I don’t think anyone can.
That is one of the points I am making. And another point is that you
folks don’t know either.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:38 PDT 1996
Article: 43159 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No answer
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:54:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:57:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
> All I have asked for…
>Who cares? Mr. Giwer is always “asking!” But the one thing he has
>never, ever done is “answered!”
>When Mr. Giwer finally gets around to answering a question put to
>him, then he will get the answers to his quesitons.
If you don’t know why not just say so?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:39 PDT 1996
Article: 43162 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap, soap and more soap
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:07:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq6[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:10:24 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>4/30/81:
>> The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
>>Rachel Patron, who
>> claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
>>Soviets during WWII (and
>> you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
>>Patron goes on to
>> state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
>>she found a shed full of
>> soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
>>survivors can remember
>> seeing things that never existed?
>Giwer, if they ever give out awards for being the biggest fucking pin
>head in the Universe, you’ll win hands down!!
>Being a total fool may be the only thing you are good at.
You do not like having your holohugger beliefs punctured? She LIED.
She was a “survivor” and she LIED.
Does that not bother you?
Or do you believe there really was RIH?
Which kind of fool are you? One who will not believe your survivors
lie? Or one who believes their lies? It is your choice.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:40 PDT 1996
Article: 43163 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No fuel needed
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:24:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 11:27:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>”MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
>>check at each
>>one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
>>… When the last one was in,
>>the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
>>had set in, the
>>ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
>>doors were opened, and the
>>Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
>>they were burned in the
>>open air without the use of fuel. ”
>>IMT XX – p. 494.
>>
>> More Nazi physics at work.
>>
>> I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
>>
>> On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they
>>could do this?
> I note that Mr. Giwer has not presented the defense cross-examination
>of this witness. Why has he not done that?
There was no defense necessary against such an absurd and stupid
assertion. Anyone with half a brain can see that, even a holohugger can
see that. Or is it that you are continuing to agree that this is what
holohuggers do is a problem?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43165 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:16:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:19:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>” MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
>>in my hands, of an
>>experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
>>you [Albert Speer] if you
>>heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
>>find a quick and complete
>>way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
>>gassing and burning, as it
>>had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
>>village, a small village was
>>provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
>>approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
>>means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
>>were eradicated
>>almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace.”
>>IMT XVI – p.529.
> Mr. Giwer’s quotation of this passage lacks honesty and integrity. It
>is out of context, and quite deceptively so.
It is good to see you agree with me about Nizkor.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43166 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 5:58:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:42 PDT 1996
Article: 43170 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lack of that pesky evidence thing again
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:19:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:22:10 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
1/28/87
SS Gruppenfuehrer Gerhard Klopfer, who served as state secretary in
the Party
Chancellery under Martin Bormann and was the last surviving member
of the Wannsee
Conference (at which it was alleged that details were worked out
for the “final solution”)
dies in Heilbronn, West Germany. Klopfer was charged with war
crimes at Nuernberg, but
the case was dropped for lack of evidence, and in fact Klopfer was
permitted to resume
practicing law in 1956. This lends credence to the proposition that
the Wannsee
Conference had nothing to with with an extermination program.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43174 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Appears to be a hard problem here
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:27:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 8:30:02 PM CDT 1996
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I have just replied to a very contorted attempt to explain one part of
second first gassing story.
So lets start off with an easier part.
Would anyone like to explain why expert exterminators were used instead
of normal camp personnel?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43188 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s misrepresent to make a story
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:00:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pak7h$42[email protected]> <4pb1t3$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:03:10 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:
>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>>The Wannsee document says nothing about mass gassings, and the only one
>who
>>>tries to make such a connection, so he can then strike down the strawman
>he
>>>has just erected, is the Giwer-troll. Nor does the SWC make that
>>>connection. Only the Giwer-troll, who never stops adding dishonesty to
>>>vulgarity, stupidity and simple trolling.
>> From the SWC Q&A
>>6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they located?
>> Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with
>>special apparatus
>> specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps existed:
>>Auschwitz-Birkenau,
>> Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. All were
>>located in Poland.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
I was the first in this NG to point out that it had nothing to do with
mass gassings, McFly. Is there anyone in there yet, McFly? In case you
have forgotten, 813-972-2574. I will be looking forward to your nose
clearing sounds on my answering service.
>>7. What does the term “Final Solution” mean and what is its
>>origin?
>> Answer: The term “Final Solution” (Endl”sung) refers to
>>Germany’s plan to murder all the
>> Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference (Berlin;
>>January 20,1942)
>> where German officials discussed its implementation.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
As above, it was the holohuggers who made that claim. But then, no one
said they were very bright. Barely a dull genius at best.
>>8. When did the “Final Solution” actually begin?
>> Answer: While thousands of Jews were murdered by the Nazis or died as
>>a direct result of
>> discriminatory measures instituted against Jews during the initial
>>years of the Third Reich,
>> the systematic murder of Jews did not begin until the German invasion
>>of the Soviet Union
>> in June 1941.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
As above, fantasizing idiot.
>> Only a liar for the holocaust can miss the connection between gassings,
>>murder and the Wannsee Conference.
>The only liar here is th eGiwer-troll and it is obvious he is desparate,
>since he is lying so blatently and so obviously.
As you know you holohuggers, when I asked for evidence of gassing, I was
first given the protocol in German to much giggling by the schoolgirls
here. And as you know, when I found it in English I was the one who
pointed out it said no such thing.
Knowing all of this you still post your lies.
Why?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43189 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Everyone in Theresienstadt was exterminated
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:46:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 6:48:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Who was it who told me that story?
By all accounts, Rabbi Dr. Leo Baeck must have had a very comfortable
existence under the
National Socialist Government in Germany. Born in 1873 in Posen, he
became a Rabbi in 1897
in Oppeln/Silesia. Interestingly, he was a Rabbi in Berlin from 1912
until 1943, when he himself
was interned at the Theresienstadt camp, a camp where most of the
prominent Jews and
resistance activists were housed. After the war Leo Baeck immigrated to
England.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:15 PDT 1996
Article: 43192 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooooo, those nasty SS
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:27:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:30:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Having those nasty nightmares again, huh? I suggested long ago that
>you upgrade your wine. I did and notice the differnce? Amazing!
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>> entrances to the four-story
>The SS did a whole mess of rotten stuff. They were rotten people, had
>to be to get into the SS. Some died very slowly at Dachau.
And you, like the dumb shit asshole you are, believe it.
You forgot to quote the garbage part.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43193 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:30:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq5[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:33:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
>>know he lies a lot.
> We all know Mr. Giwer lies a lot.
>>4/19/82:
>> WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>>Buchenwald for the Duluth
>> News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
>>gas chambers, which
>> were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
>>Germany, and as we
>> all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
>>Wiesenthal, Books
>> and Bookmen, April, 1975).
> Mr. Giwer is trading on the unstated idea that anyplace with a gas
>chamber is, automatically, an “extermination camp.” That is false. Thus
>there is no logical connection between what Wiesenthal said and the state
>of affairs at Buchenwald – whatever evidence there is or isn’t for a gas
>chamber there, Wiesenthsl’s statement is irrelevant to that discussion.
>Mr. Giwer is merely trolling once atain.
Then complain to Wiesenthal not me.
He is the one lying in this case.
And if he lies in one case why would you believe him in any other?
And as you know his is great at subborning perjury.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43194 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:50:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:53:33 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
“Richard J. Green” wrote:
>Mr. Giwer,
>I have requested in the past that you not send me private e-mail. I have
>warned you that I would post any such e-mail publicly. I am doing that
>now. I do not wish to receive private e-mail from Nazi-apologists.
Nor have I sent you any. What in the fuck is your problem?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43195 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:59:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 3:02:43 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Matt Giwer) said:
>>
>[Giwer-Troll BS snipped]
>> >For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England’s greatest
>> >weapons against Germany was a naval blockade. And in that war Germany’s
>> >greatest weapon against the naval blockade was the submarine. At the time
>> >England selectively declared war on Germany, Germany had exactly 27
>> >submarines.
>As of September 1939 Germany had 98 U-boats in service. All were superior
>to anything the Allies had at the time. (_The Harper Encylopedia of
>Military History_, Fourth Edition, p.1152.)
>> Really Professor Giwer-troll? Is that *all* the navy that Germany had?
>Nope. But the German Navy, particularly the surface fleet, was no match
>for the Royal Navy. (Not to mention the U.S. Navy.) The only _effective_
>naval weapon the Germans had- one the Royal Navy almost didn’t defeat -was
>the U-boat. Fortunately, the the Royal Navy hadn’t quite forgotten how
>they defeated the U-boat in WWI: The convoy system, and quickly
>re-established it. (To the the RN’s frustration the U.S. Navy, at Adm.
>King’s insistance and the Allies detriment, declined to also switch to the
>convoy system until well into the Battle for the Atlantic. Many hundreds
>of thousands of tons of shipping were lost because of this. It would have
>been much worse, possibly at the cost of losing the Battle for the
>Atlantic- and knocking Britain out of the war, if the German Navy hadn’t
>suffered problems with their torpedos very much like the problems the U.S.
>Navy also suffered with in its (successful) anti-shipping campaign against
>Japan.
>> >Despite what you might hear in the WW II documentaries, they were
>> >being sunk as fast as they were being built. There were never more than
>> >29 operational submarines at any one time. The damage you see is due to
>> >the anti-submarine warfare technology and tactics of the day being such
>> >that a torpedo hit was the first indication of a German submarine in the
>> >area. The sonars were only good enough help find them after heading in
>> >the direction of the best guess as to where the submarine was.
>>
>> Utter horseshit, Professor sir. The earnest sinking of German submarines
>> didn’t start until 1942-1943.
>Indeed Giwer-Troll’s claim of “There were never more than 29 operational
>submarines at any one time” is utter horseshit.” Would Giwer-Troll care to
>cite the source for that little road apple?
Your assertion from ignoance of a Harper’s Encyclopedia reference fails
to note the difference between blue water and green water submarines.
No on in their right mind would count green water subs in WW II.
But then I will admit that you truly do think you know what you are
talking about.
>As for a torpedo hit being the first indication that a U-boat was in the
>area? Not quite. There was Ultra and DF. HQ often knew about how many
>U-boats would be attacking a convoy. The escort commander generally knew
>when to expect U-boats in his area. In fact, because of this, convoys were
>generally routed _around_ the wolfpacks.
You are an idiot.
First it was named HFDF or HuffDuff. All of the “routing around” was
based upon aircraft sightings as in those days subs spent most of their
time on the surface.
>Then, of course, there was airborne anti-subnarine aircraft with radar.
>Both land and carrier-based. They were quite effective, especially later
>in the war when their numbers increased, in spotting and attacking U-boats
>well outside the convoy’s escort screen.
The subject is the beginning of the war when radar was something no one
really trusted.
>[Giwer-Troll BS snipped]
Because you are technoligically incapable of dealing with it.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritsch was a fraud
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:22:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 5:25:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Giwer, the man with the (alleged) IQ of 163, fails – yet
>again – to understand a very simple thing.
>When someone is exposed to an *already existing* high concentration
>of HCN (or some other strong poison), he will indeed die rather
>quickly.
As a product (multiply) concentration and time.
>However, if a carrier for the gas (Zyklon, in this case),
From the Degesh publication, wood pulp.
>is thrown into a large place filled with people, the ones which are
>further away from it will take longer to die, as it will take the
>necessary concentration of the gas some time to reach them; actually,
>Hoes testifies about this very phenomena, saying that in the Krema
>II and III gas chambers, those standing by the introduction devices
>collapsed immediately, while those further away took longer to die.
Hoess testififes to 3.5 million. Hoess testifies to Wolzec. Hoess
testifies to anything his Soviet interogators want his to say.
>This is also what happened in the first gassing (in Block 11),
I have TWO very different Nizkor approved stories of about the first
gassing and both approved by Nizkor. I have no idea how to tell one
truth from the other truth.
I can no tell Breitwieser from Fritsch for openers. How do you tell the
difference?
Do you disagree with professional fumigators being called in?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:19:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:21:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:38:35 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>Now, given that the Zyklon B columns were secured in both the vertical and
>>>horizontal, on what basis does Giwer assert that all the victims had to do
>>>”was raise them and push them back out?” Why none of course! But then
>>>Giwer rarely lets minor details- like the fact that the Zyklon B columns
>>>were quite secure -stand in the way of spouting drivel!
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail..jpg
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns..jpg
>> Neither of these appear to match your description.
>Sigh. Mr. Giwer apparently cannot even cite an URL accurately. The
>URLs that actually work are:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail.jpg
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns.jpg
>I note that the little that the pictures show of the insertion columns
>does match Mr. Van Alstine’s description of the concrete sleeves on
>the roof of L.Keller 1 of, judging by the direction of the shadows,
>Krema 2.
I note this and the minimum 10 foot square aerial photos are all you
folks have on your side. Get over it. You are making it up as you go
along.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Moran’s dreams vanish
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:55:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31b6d9e3.14909[email protected]> <4p70t7$ag[email protected]> <4p9ge3$n6[email protected]> <31b985a9.44973[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 1:58:38 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43223 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:53
@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[snipsnap]
>>>drwxr-xr-x 2 kmcvay ftp 96 Feb 1 08:33 1995
>>>drwxr-xr-x 2 kmcvay ftp 1024 Jun 6 19:42 1996
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 20500 Jan 20 06:04 is-menorah-secular
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 21100 Mar 8 17:40 menora-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 21821 Mar 16 20:48 moran-challenges-self.01
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 2083 Mar 16 20:48 moran-challenges-self.02
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 1167 Jun 6 19:42 moran-disbelieves-morrison
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 20893 Apr 17 07:24 moran-menorah-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 13559 Jan 26 19:31 moran-on-schindler
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 13869 Apr 16 18:41 moran-schindler-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 123224 Jun 6 19:03 moran.0696
>>”June 6″. Thats yesterday. You’ve had to do some work I see.
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 9371 Apr 15 07:16 morans-lies
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 1850 Dec 6 1995 night-b4-christmas
>[etc.]
>>
>> Well anyway I checked out your new update and I see you have
>>selected some things and not others. In fact for the most part the
>>selections are only Moran’s headers followed by a comment from
>>another.
>> I should also point out that, of the few you did include intact,
>>they have no responses.
>Please read as:
>*whine* Now that I am a convicted idiot, they at least have to admit that they
>neglected to archive at least 50% of alt.revisionism under my humble name…
>Nele
>P.S. Matt “Eliza” Giwer at work:
>>> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
>>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
>>> implying that we is observant?”
>I still stick to my thesis of M.G. being a clever AI-programme
And I will stick to the known fact that you are a sexless imbecile
without the balls to deal with the world under your own name.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:29 PDT 1996
Article: 43224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:26:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:29:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> The Nizkor approved file talks only about France reporting people
>> being sent work camps with no mention of children or religion.
>> Why do you think that is?
>Why? Because I think Giwer is too stupid to comprehend the written word
>correctly. And too lazy to educate himself.
>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
>sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
>apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Yes, yes, of course, of course and you are a talking horse of course.
It it good to see you calling the gang at Nizkor liars. That is all
that you are doing and it is about time.
Well done, Mr. Ed. You have named them as they are.
There is no mention of children or race [sic] or religion whatsoever and
yet you call Nizkor a liar for not mentioning it.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:07:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 12:10:44 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>
>>> > They showed part of the routine on CNN. It was bizarre. Any accurate
>>> >description would be considered a parody.
>>>
>>> Darn, sorry I missed it. Was it insulting as the French claimed, IYO?
>> I wouldn’t have called it insulting (but I thought the inquisition scene in
>>”History of the World –Part I” — which the water ballet thing resembled — was hilarious).
>> There were a bevy of female swimmers in black one peice bathing suits
>>goose-stepping in unison into the pool then some frantic manouvers with limbs
>>protruding from the water also done in unison. It was rather like watching an accident
>>in progress or reading L’il Tommy’s cold blooded murder of the English language. It
>>could have meant anything or nothing at all. The real question I had was not whether
>>the routine was in bad taste but whether the entire “sport” was.
>I’ve never been a big fan of the syncronized swimming in the Olympics
>other then being amazed at the breath control. It appears that
>something wasmade of something pretty stupid. 🙂
I would rather suggest there are two point of interest.
1) It was unacceptable for the Olympics.
2) It ws OK for a movie.
The only thing that was “unacceptable” from the original movie was the
preview trailer for Part II where the Jews in Space were chasing Muslim
ships with
Torah
Torah
Torah
on the screen.
Some jokes even Mel Brooks is not permitted to make.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43230 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:30:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4nlrc2$agn@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4pe10[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 8:33:03 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>20 degrees C is hot. 20 degrees F is cold. Big difference.
>>>Unfortunately for Mr. Raven, he is wrong on both counts. It was clear
>>>that Mr. Giwer meant 20 C because he tried to argue that the boiling
>>>point of HCN (25.7 C) somehow prevented it form evaporating at 20 C.
>>>Additionally, even if Mr. Giwer meant 20 F, he is still wrong. The
>>>vapor pressure of HCN at 20 F is just less than 200 Torr, or about
>>>260,000 ppm. HCN is toxic at 300 ppm, but Mr. Raven knew that.
>> If you knew what you were talking about you would know that
>>toxicity is a product of quantity and time.
>Yes. Ten minutes for 300 ppm is the more often quoted as lethal,
>generally as LD99. Sometime 450 ppm in 10 mn. What has it to do with
>such a rate like 260000ppm ? What could be the time with this rate ?
What do steady state conditions have to do with the subject? How long
would it take to achieve steady state? No one would live long enough to
see that even if there were enough used to ever achieve it.
You see it is not a rate in any sense. It is a matter of the total
amount inhaled to cause death. The minutes could more accurately stated
in terms of inhalations. And the rising concentration would mean that
near zero in the first breath and increasing with each breath until a
lethal amount has been inhaled.
With the method of usage described one does not get 300 ppm immediately,
so right up front we have the time to death different from the ten
minutes. The questing then becomes the rate of increase of the ppm.
It would be desirable if someone could come up with the “sensitized
paper” or the gas detector reported to have been used as at least one
place to start. It would also be desirable for some one to come up with
what size can was used and how many cans were used. I would not expect
much from that but it is clear that everyone is shooting in the dark
>from the unreliable and conflicting supposed eyewitnesses.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:32 PDT 1996
Article: 43232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:39:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:42:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
” MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
in my hands, of an
experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
you [Albert Speer] if you
heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
find a quick and complete
way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
gassing and burning, as it
had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
village, a small village was
provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
were eradicated
almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace.”
IMT XVI – p.529.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 16:29:55 PDT 1996
Article: 43236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN slanders Germans
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:25:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4or264$1ar6@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4phi75[email protected]> <4phq2m$[email protected]> <4pqog[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:28:09 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77094 alt.revisionism:43236 soc.culture.jewish:56795
Mike Pelletier wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Gord McFee wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, Mike Pelletier
>> said:
>>>Both letters to the newspaper seem to ascribe victim status to Hammer,
>>>lamenting the fact that if he’d disobeyed orders, he would have been shot
>>>by his commanding officers, and that he’s not to blame, the government of
>>>Nazi Germany is to blame.
>>
>>Rubbish. There are lots of examples of SS who refused to obey orders in
>>this regard, or refused to serve in a death camp, and I am unaware of any
>>who were shot for it. Most were simply sent home.
>This “if they disobeyed orders they’d have been shot” apology is very
>commonly used, it’s interesting to know that it’s bunk. Could you post
>some references?
>>Right on the second point. Wrong on the first. The Kristallnacht was
>>ordered by the Government (Hitler, Goebbels and Heydrich) and was carried
>>out by the SS and the SA.
>Thanks for setting me straight on that point. I was long under the
>impression that it was a popular, mob-mentality kind of attack on
>Jewish businesses legitimized in the minds of the mob by the
>Nazi-sponsored boycotts and hate mongering.
But it is another of the claims for which there has never been the
slightest evidence ever produced for it being a government operation.
You might ask for references on this one also.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:09:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:37:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:40:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>> Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
>>close this time?
>>
>>” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
>>boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
>>to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
>>very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes and
>>shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
>>children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too
>>weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking
>>…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and stumbled
>>over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After being filled up
>>to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in.
>>In a few minutes all was over. ”
>>IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.
>Since you believe quite rightly in the importance of context, perhaps
>you would be so kind as to provide some here. I have the named volume
>open to pp. 156-157, but I am sure that our readers would be very
>interested to know in your own words the source of this description
>and the context in which it appears.
>Certainly you would not wish to leave the impression that you did
>something so unoriginal as to copy this from a denier web page and
>believe it to be a true truth simply because it appeared on a denier
>web page.
>Is the quote from the red, green, or blue series?
>Is the quote evidence given in testimony, or is it a document?
>Does it form part of an indictment?
>To which defendant does the quote pertain?
>How much text has been replaced by the ellipsis?
>What does the replaced text say?
>Who said/wrote it?
>Did this person claim to have been an eyewitness?
>I know the answers to these questions. Do you?
I do not care. It is quite up to the holohugger standards for this
conference. When the holohuggers start posting to the standards you are
implying should be used, then there is a cause to call me to that same
standard.
Until then, Keren’s mythical Polish spies do not explain the lies about
steaming people to death. Of course, if Keren is willing to post to
your standards that will be a different matter. So far he has simply
invented his Polish spies.
BTW: IF in fact you do know the answers you would be doing the subject
a great service were you to post the answers. Why do you not? Would
you rather play games?
How about a wild guess. You will claim my failure to provide the
answers will mean the passage does not exist. You will harp upon this
until the passage is forgotten.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:09:09 PDT 1996
Article: 43241 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:43:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq5vm[email protected]> <4pqqd9[email protected]> <4prb[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:45:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>4/19/82:
>>>> WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>>>>Buchenwald for the Duluth
>>>> News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
>>>>gas chambers, which
>>>> were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
>>>>Germany, and as we
>>>> all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
>>>>Wiesenthal, Books
>>>> and Bookmen, April, 1975).
>>
>>> Mr. Giwer is trading on the unstated idea that anyplace with a gas
>>>chamber is, automatically, an “extermination camp.” That is false. Thus
>>>there is no logical connection between what Wiesenthal said and the state
>>>of affairs at Buchenwald – whatever evidence there is or isn’t for a gas
>>>chamber there, Wiesenthsl’s statement is irrelevant to that discussion.
>>>Mr. Giwer is merely trolling once atain.
>>
>> Then complain to Wiesenthal not me.
>>
>> He is the one lying in this case.
> He is lying in this case? Really? OK, if your true truth is now that
>there _were_ exermination camps on German soil, that is fine with me.
As you know I made the statement that there were none in Germany. Then
the holohuggers jumped in and insisted there were.
So who is right? The holohuggers here or Wiesenthal.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:46:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?
” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 19:19:57 PDT 1996
Article: 108879 of alt.politics.correct
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!mail2news.alias.net!mail
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.peeves,alt.bigfoot,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.israel,alt.music.white-power,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.college.college-bowl,rec.pets.cats,alt.stupidity,alt.whine,alt.netcom.sucks
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
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Date: 14 Jun 1996 09:36:08 -0700
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Johan Carlson wrote:
>All this about the communists and Jews in the Netherlands are nothing
>but complete nonsense. There is not an ounce of truth in Mr. Apollos
>argument. Perhaps it’s just a stupid a joke; but more likely i beleive
>he’s another anti-semite shithead just like Mr. Giwer. Although Mr.
>Giwer is a lot more refined in his use of the English language.
Be careful. That observation is a violation of holohugger dogma.
>As you might notice english is not my native language and therefore Mr.
>Giwers ‘word games’ can seem a little strange to me. That’s not to say
>that I’m stupid (as Mr. Giwer once implied).
That is SOP in this newsgroup. But I have never critiqued your use of
english as have the holohuggers.
This b.s. about Dutch being
>a communist state involved in some great conspiracy with the Jews is not
>a Giwer invention though (correct me if I’m wrong ;).
>Mr. Johnson did well in arguing against Apollos article. But why bother;
>It is simply not true!
Save there was no such argument.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 21:13:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43265 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:54:16 GMT
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>> I looked three times and while I could find the cancer reference, I
>>>could not find Mark Van Alstine saying he _believed_ people could be
>>>infected with cancer. You wrote he _believes_ it. You were asked to
>>>support _that_ claim. You can repost it ten times and the article still
>>>will not contain Mark Van Alstine saying he believes that people can be
>>>infected with cancer. Sorry about that.
>>
>> I was working by analogy. ALL holohuggers believe ALL testimony
>>regardless of how ridiculous it is.
> I have never met a holohugger, so I would not know. Where do you find
>them? Can you name any of these holohuggers that believe all testimony?
>Can you cite evidence that they believe all testimony?
Of course you folks deny it. But what else explains the silence? For
example, after so many exchanges over weeks with Keren, Green finally
chimes in with the idea of confusing steam with oil vapor being absurd
as I said all along. Where was he?
>>I also pointed out that Nizkor
>>believes it else they would not be carrying it.
> If you believe that logic then you must believe that Nizkor believes
>every word you post. They do carry it, you know – or at least everything
>that makes it through the newsfeed.
So you are saying they carry information they know to be false. I agree
but it is surprising to see you agreeing with it.
>>It is also clear the
>>French government believed it. It is also clear that the information
>>came from the Soviets who believed it.
> I had the impression that your true truth was that the Soviets made up
>all the nonsense claims. If they made it up surely they would know not to
>believe it.
As you know only the Soviets produced testimony and evidence regarding
what happened in the territories they liberated. That is the only
source for the French claim.
>> Why would Van Alstine stand out in not believing it?
> I have seen no evidence that anyone here believed it. Have you? Can
>you produce it?
Upon what ground could there be selective disbelief? Are you claiming
that one impossibility can be rejected but that other impossibilities
must be accepted? Upon what grounds can you make that claim?
For example, how can you accept impossible cremation times on one hand
and then reject an impossible infection on the other?
What criteria could you possibly have for selecting the impossibilities
you want to believe?
>>Why would any holohugger disbelieve any statement the purpose of which
>>was to support the death penalty? After all, no one would lie about
>>such things, would they?
>>
>>> However, I certainly believe that Nazi doctors can inject people with
>>>cancer cells to see if they _could_ become infected with cancer. Not
>>>quite what the witness said, of course, but within the boundaries of
>>>normal interpretational drift. You see, I am a silly person who thinks
>>>one should read what a witness says with the purpose of trying to find the
>>>most plausible understanding of what really happened, not trying to find
>>>ways to troll.
>>
>>Of course it is not what was said. The word is “infectED” as you read.
> That is true. But then, the word was not “air-tight” in reference to
>the door at Auschwitz, either. Sorry for bringing that up.
Any kind of “tight” is absurd with 3-4 huge holes in the roof.
>>As to your “interpretational” approach, this is not a casual comment or
>>off-hand remark. This is an indictment on a capital offense. Wording
>>is important in such matters.
> Yes, but we are long past that. There is a difference between history
>and legal cases. I am interested in the historical record. Historians
>can properly use evidence that courts would exclude.
Then we can expect no truth from historians.
> In any event we would also have to go back and look at the original
>language of the statement.
I posted it. It is as I said.
>>Would you like to deal with them deliberately risking an outbreak of
>>malaria next?
> If you present a convincing case that this would be a necessary
>corollary of anything that was alleged, and that the risk was substantial,
>I might. Some people might doubt that anyone would deliberately risk
>making the city of Harrisburg, PA uninhabitable for generations. I’ll bet
>you deliberately risk dying in a traffic accident at least once a week.
>And this is evidence of…?
Evidence that all of the claims of medical experiments were fabricated
of course.
>>Would you like to go over everything else you believe is true simply
>>because it was invented for war crimes trials?
> Sure:
> That didn’t take long.
You forgot gassing.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 21:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43275 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One man’s opinion
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:06:40 GMT
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>”The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>>>>particularly in the United
>>>>States. Equally popular was the sentence already announced by the high
>>>>tribunal: death. But what
>>>>kind of trial was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of
>>>>loosely given political promises
>>>>subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of pleasing
>>>>platitudes to be set lightly aside when
>>>>expediency required it. It was the foundation of the American system of
>>>>law and justice and
>>>>[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>>>those Constitutional precepts in
>>>>order to punish a vanquished enemy.”
>>>>– U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
>>>>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>>>>p.189-190.
>>
>>> You know, if I didn’t know that Mr. Giwer knows that appeal to
>>>authority is a fallacy, I’d say this looked an awful lot like an appeal to
>>>authority.
>>
>> But as you know it is corroboration of the statement I made.
> You offer this as corroboration? Had I offered it you would be the
>first to point out that it is not evidence.
>>You also
>>know that even our distinguished attorney from Pennsylvania insisted I
>>was wrong.
>>
>> Don’t forget the Justice Douglas also agreeing with me.
> You know, this too looks like an appeal to authority.
> I also don’t forget that the Justice Douglas mentioned “crime” in the
>singular yet there were four charges brought at Nuremberg. Did he really
>have such a poor understanding of the proceedings?
There was no justice at Nuremberg according to US and Canadian and
British standards of Justice. No one may be punished for anything he
did prior to a law that makes the action criminal. But you know that.
You also know the IMT was not a military tribunal.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 22:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43280 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:28:37 GMT
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>> I was working by analogy. ALL holohuggers believe ALL testimony
>>>>regardless of how ridiculous it is.
>>
>>> I have never met a holohugger, so I would not know. Where do you find
>>>them? Can you name any of these holohuggers that believe all testimony?
>>>Can you cite evidence that they believe all testimony?
>>
>> Of course you folks deny it. But what else explains the silence? For
>>example, after so many exchanges over weeks with Keren, Green finally
>>chimes in with the idea of confusing steam with oil vapor being absurd
>>as I said all along. Where was he?
> No evidence cited that they believe all testimony. Let’s move on.
That is the only place gassing comes from. And they believe it.
>>>>I also pointed out that Nizkor
>>>>believes it else they would not be carrying it.
>>
>>> If you believe that logic then you must believe that Nizkor believes
>>>every word you post. They do carry it, you know – or at least everything
>>>that makes it through the newsfeed.
>>
>>So you are saying they carry information they know to be false. I agree
>>but it is surprising to see you agreeing with it.
> Nizkor knows Mr. Giwer’s posts are false. Mr. Giwer agrees. Who
>tortured him into this confession?
Then you hold this story is trure?
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another lovely story
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT
Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed
the falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point
of view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch
having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly
true story of the same first use.
It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it.
That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the
URL so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site
of this alternate reality true truth.
=====
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser
=====
Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from
Fritsch?
=====
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the
camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff
of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.
=====
Instantly “knocked out.” One has to wonder just what it was
that this person “whiffed”. It is also of note that here it is
used as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant.
=====
To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the
half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had
several cans of the blue pellets,
=====
Note the blue kitty litter. How strange.
=====
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.
=====
Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs
into the room.
=====
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies
were met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had
locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each
other’s hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and
their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes
disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them
up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)
=====
Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the
Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to
be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse
into gelatinous blobs.
Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is
what really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised?
But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it
comes from seeing a person “knocked out” from one whiff. Then we
note that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to
recover consciousness before dying and go through the ha
>I suggest you read
> http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimer.html
>[one “useful” tip and one gratuitous insult deleted]
I suggest you subscribe to the HTML Writers Group list and learn
something about the subject before you make a greater ass of yourself.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43052 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: american cult covers up anti-semitic collobarion in 3rd Reich – comproms.txt [1/2]
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:00:46 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>–*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*
>Extract from 2,500,000 pamphlets distributed around Germany in 1934 by the
>American religious publishing house “Watchtower” and its associated
>group, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. Copies were also individually addressed to top
>Nazis, with a personal letter to Adolf Hitler:
><
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>Empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of
>exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.
>This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the
>stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is
>a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: “the Jews own it, the
>Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.”>>
>A full article on this subject is attached below:
>–*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*
>Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Jehovah’s Witnesses, Anti-semitism and the Third Reich
> Jehovah’s Witnesses,
>
> Anti-semitism
> and the Third Reich:
>
>The Watch Tower Society’s Attempted
> Compromise with Nazism
>M. James Penton
>ÿÿÿ[*]Konrad Frankes testamony
>ÿÿÿ[*]Declaration of Facts
>ÿÿÿ[*]Žrkl„rung
>Since the Second World War, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society
>has taught Jehovah’s Witnesses that while the German churches, both Catholic
>and Protestant, were guilty of compromise with Hitler and
>the Nazi Party, their German brethren, then commonly known as
>”Earnest Bible Students,” stood solidly against the
>principles of the Third Reich. Because of the brave stand taken by most
>ordinary German Witnesses in the face of a terrible persecution that cost
>many of them their lives in Hitler’s concentration camps, they have rightly
>been praised by secular historians-a fact which the Watch Tower Society has
>used to buttress its assertions.
>For example, The Watchtower magazine of October 1, 1984 (p. 8),
>reported the findings of Christine E. King and
>Michael Kater to the effect that the number of Witness
>imprisonments and deaths brought about by Nazi persecution had been greatly
>underestimated. Quoting Dr. King, it stated:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”`Theological principles were adhered to; Witnesses remained
>”neutral,” they were honest and completely trustworthy and as such,
>ironically, often found themselves employed as servants of the
>S.S.'”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>What has not generally been known either by most Jehovah’s
>Witnesses or many independent scholars, however, is that while ordinary
>German Witnesses did generally maintain their integrity and commitment to
>their principles, their leaders–the Watch Tower’s second president,
>Judge Joseph F. Rutherford, and the man who succeeded him
>in office in 1942, Nathan H. Knorr, plus high German Watch
>Tower officials-did not.
>Furthermore, Rutherford and his lieutenants tried to save the German arm of
>their movement by scapegoating the Jews and attacking Great Britain, the
>United States, and the League of Nations.
>During the first half of their history, the Bible Student-Jehovah’s Witnesses
>were notable for their sympathy to the Jews. Even more than most late
>nineteenth- and twentieth-century American Protestant premillennialists, the
>Watch Tower’s first president, Charles T. Russell, was a thoroughgoing
>supporter of Zionist causes. He refused to attempt the conversion of the
>Jews, believed in the Jewish resettlement of Palestine, and in 1910, led a
>New York Jewish audience in singing the Zionist anthem, Hatikva.[*]
>[1]For more than a decade after Russell’s death in 1916,
>Judge Rutherford followed in his footsteps.
>In 1925 he produced a small book entitled Restoration,
>based on a series of radio broadcasts he had given, and in 1926 he published
>a similar volume called Comfort for the Jews. In both, he proclaimed
>himself a friend of the Jewish people and asserted that Jewish migration to
>the ancient Holy Land was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Identical
>Publisher’s Forewords to Restoration and Comfort for the Jews
>stated:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>THE rebuilding of Palestine is claiming the attention of Jews
>throughout the earth. Some of the Gentile world powers are outwardly favoring
>the movement but manifestly for selfish reasons.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>JUDGE RUTHERFORD, known throughout the world as a friend of the
>Hebrew people, is vigorously supporting the claim of the Jews to the Holy
>Land. He is opposed to proselytizing the Jews, holding that such is not only
>wrong but contrary to the Scriptures. His lectures to large audiences, which
>have been broadcast throughout the world, on “JEWS RETURNING TO PALESTINE”,
>have created an intense interest. There is a good demand for them in printed
>form. He has simplified these lectures and now presents them in book form.
>This volume will be of profound interest to Jews and Gentiles alike. It is
>the first unbiased presentation of the subject from the Scriptural viewpoint
>published.
>The Publishers send forth this volume confident that it will do much
>good.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>In 1930 Rutherford produced a larger volume on the same theme called
>Life.But suddenly he repudiated his beliefs respecting the Jews.
>Life was withdrawn from circulation,[*][2]
>and in 1932 Rutherford proclaimed that “fleshly Israel” had no specific role to play
>in salvation history. He wrote:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>The Jews were evicted from Palestine and `their house left unto
> them desolate’ because they rejected Christ Jesus, the beloved and anointed
> King of Jehovah. To this day the Jews have not repented of this wrongful act
> committed by their forefathers. Many of them have been returned to the land
> of Palestine, but they have been induced to go there because of selfishness
> and for sentimental reasons.
> During the long period elapsing from the time of their expulsion to the
> present day the Jews have not “borne the shame of the heathen” for Jehovah’s
> sake, nor for the name of Christ. During all this period of time, and
> particularly during the World War, the true followers of Christ Jesus
> devoted to God, and to his kingdom, have been bearing the shame of the
> heathen and have been hated by all the nations for Christ’s sake and the
> sake of Jehovah’s name. (Matt. 24: 9: Mark 13: 13)
> In contrast to this, during the World War the Jews received recognition of
> the heathen nations. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the
> heathen governments of Satan’s organization, came forth, recognized the
> Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. In this the seventh world power
> [the British Empire] took the lead. Now Big Business and other wings of
> Satan’s organization place the Jews alongside of and in the same category
> as the Gentiles. Heretofore even God’s people have overlooked the fact that
> the affairs of God’s kingdom with reference to the things of the earth are of
> far greater importance than the rehabilitation of that little strip of land
> on the eastern side of the Mediterranean sea. The Jews have received more
> attention at their hands than they have really deserved. Therefore this
> prophecy [of Isaiah] must have its chief fulfillment upon the true people
> of God’s kingdom which are now on earth.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [*][3]
>
>Perhaps the judge was simply anxious to assert that Jehovah’s
>Witnesses were the “true Israel of God,” but it seems that he had other
>reasons for making such a dramatic doctrinal switch without any more detailed
>explanation. While he may formerly have proclaimed himself a pro-Zionist
>”friend of the Hebrew people” in the tradition of his predecessor, he
>occasionally manifested a streak of deep-seated anti-semitism.
>For example, while giving a talk on biblical prophecies respecting the
>return of the Jews to Palestine at a Canadian Bible Student convention in
>Winnipeg, Manitoba, in the early 1920s, he interjected:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”I’m speaking of the Palestine Jew, not the hooked-nosed,
>stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying
>to gyp you out of every nickel you’ve got.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][4]
>But there were no doubt other factors in 1932 which impelled him to
>abandon the Bible Students’ long tradition of philo-Judaism besides simple
>personal bias. During the late 1920s and early 1930s anti-semitism was
>becoming rampant in the United States and Canada with the rise of a variety
>of movements both religious and political.[*]
>[5] And with the start of the Depression in 1929, it began
>to appear possible that the violently anti-Jewish Nazis could come to power
>in Germany – something which happened on January 30, 1933. So it seems clear
>that Rutherford was anxious to dissociate the Witnesses from the Jewish
>community as definitively as possible. Yet these facts can in no way excuse
>what he and his aids were shortly to do during the first year of the Third
>Reich.
>Early in April 1933 the Nazis moved against Jehovah’s
>Witnesses. Their branch headquarters at Magdeburg were seized, and their
>religious activities were temporarily stopped. But on April 28, German
>authorities returned the properties to the Watch Tower Society to their
>American owners, no doubt to keep from offending the United States.
>[*][6] However, Witness leaders and
>Jehovah’s Witnesses in general knew that they were not popular with the
>Nazis. So according to an official Witness account, Judge Rutherford and
>the German Witness community decided to take a bold stand against the
>Hitler dictatorship.
>The book Jehovah’s Witnesses in The Divine Purpose, published by
>the Watch Tower Society in 1957, states:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Judge Rutherford had been watching the German situation closely
>and was well acquainted with its development as it affected the witness work.
>With this serious turn of events he lost no time in going to Germany,
>accompanied by N. H. Knorr, to see what could be done. On June 25…, a
>convention was called in Berlin. There a Declaration of Facts was presented
>to the 7,000 in attendance in protest against the Hitler government for
>their highhanded interference with the witness work of the Society, and was
>unanimously adopted. The declaration was mailed to every high officer of
>the government from the president down to the members of the council, and
>2,500,000 copies were given public distribution. Retaliation came quickly.
>Three days later, on June 28, for the second time the Society’s property
>was seized and occupied, and by government decree its printing plant was
>closed.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [*][7]
>But was the seizure of Watch Tower property by the German government on
>June 28, 1933 really because the Declaration of Facts was a bold protest
>against Nazi actions? No, quite the contrary. In a tape-recorded account
>of the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany, former Watch Tower
>Society “branch servant” or “overseer” Konrad Franke tells
>that when he and another Jehovah’s Witness arrived at the Berlin Sporthalle
>Wilmersdorf where the 1933 Witness convention was being held, they were
>shocked. The building was bedecked with Swastika flags – evidently to
>please the Nazis. Then during the convention itself, the Witness faithful
>were called on to sing a hymn that they had not sung in Germany for years.
>While they had no objection to the words, the music was the same as that
>of the German national anthem, “Deutschland, Deutschland ber
>alles.”[*][8]
>As for the Declaration and an accompanying letter sent to
>Adolf Hitler personally, they were nothing short of
>self-serving statements which attempted to ingratiate Jehovah’s Witnesses
>with the Nazis. Under a sub-section entitled “Jews,” the Declaration
>reads:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received
>financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the
>truth. Up to this moment there never has been the slightest bit of money
>contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ
>Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews
>entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior
>of the world sent of God for man’s good. This of itself should be sufficient
>proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and therefore the
>charges against us are maliciously false and could only proceed from Satan,
>our great enemy.
>The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American
>empire. By this is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>Empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of
>exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact
>particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold
>of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb
>concerning the city of New York which says: “the Jews own it, the Irish
>Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.” We have no fight with
>any of these persons mentioned but, as witnesses for Jehovah and in
>obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled
>to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people
>may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][9]
>That was not all. Besides damning the League of
>Nations, the Declaration said:
>”The present government of Germany has declared against Big Business
>oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the
>political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position….”
>[*][10]
>Then it proclaimed:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Instead of being against the principles advocated by the
>government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point
>out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full
>realization of these principles.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][11]
>The letter sent to Hitler was equally compromising in nature. To
>ingratiate the Witnesses with the Nazi Fhrer, it claimed that the
>Watch Tower Society had been and was “outstandingly friendly to Germany.”
>But more than that, it falsely asserted that Rutherford and seven members
>of the Board of Directors of the Watch Tower Society had been sentenced to
>eighty years in prison “because the [Watch Tower] president refused to use
>two magazines published by him in the United States for war propaganda
>against Germany.”[*][12]
>As Jehovah’s Witnesses were soon to discover, the Nazis were not
>impressed by either their Declaration or the Society’s letter to Hitler.
>Many Germans were thoroughly aware that they had long been pro-Zionist,
>and Nazis officials were hardly so stupid as not to know that in many ways
>they stood in direct opposition to what the Hitler and his associates
>proclaimed and demanded. The Witnesses were internationalists in a religious
>sense and were generally quite tolerant of persons of other races; they
>regarded secular authority as of the devil; and, above all, they were
>openly anti-militaristic[*][13] –
>all factors which caused the nationalistic, racist, and militaristic Nazis
>to despise them. Thus the German government unleashed a wave of persecution
>against the Witnesses almost immediately.
>On June 27, 1933, one day after they begin sending copies of the
>Declaration by registered mail to German officials, the Prussian Land or
>state banned them, and the police began to carry out widespread raids on
>their homes and places of business. As has been noted above, the Society’s
>Magdeburg offices were seized again on June 28.
> Ultimately, between two and three million marks worth of Watch Tower
>property was confiscated and destroyed by the Nazis.
>[*][14] But it was then, and only
>then, that Rutherford and the Watch Tower Society decided to oppose Nazi
>policies in an uncompromising fashion. For some time thereafter, German
>Witnesses were divided over what they should do.
>[*][15]
>Although after the Second World War most Jehovah’s Witnesses and others
>were unaware of the compromising actions of Witness leaders in the Germany
>of 1933, there were some who still remembered the Berlin convention.
>Furthermore, copies of both the Declaration and the Watch Tower letter
>to Hitler remained extant. So when the Watch Tower Society published a
>history of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany in the 1974 Yearbook of
>Jehovah’s Witnesses, it was necessary to deal with what were very
>embarrassing data in a way which would not make the Society’s Brooklyn
>leaders look guilty of violating their own teachings. Thus the full
>responsibility for the attempted compromise with Hitler and the Nazis was
>placed on the shoulders of Paul Balzereit, the Society’s German branch
>servant at the time.
>Because of the importance of the Society’s present official position on
>this matter, the 1974 Yearbook account of the 1933 Berlin convention
>is given in full. It reads:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>By the summer of 1933 the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses had been
>banned in the majority of German states. the brothers’ homes were being
>searched regularly and many brothers had been arrested. The flow of
>spiritual food was partially hampered, although only for a time; still many
>brothers were asking how long it would be possible to continue the work. In
>this situation the congregations were invited on very short notice to a
>convention to be held in Berlin on June 25. Since it was expected that many
>would be unable to attend because of the various bans, the congregations
>were encouraged to send at least one or several delegates. But, as it turned
>out, 7,000 brothers got there. For many of them it took three days, some
>riding bicycles the entire distance, whereas others went by truck, since
>the bus companies refused to rent buses to a banned organization.
>Brother Rutherford, who, together with Brother Knorr, had come to Germany
>just a few days before in order to see what could be done to ensure the
>safety of the Society’s property, had prepared a declaration with Brother
>Balzereit to be presented to the convention delegates for adoption. It was
>a protest against the meddling of the Hitler government into the preaching
>work we were doing.
>All high government officials, from the Reich’s president on down, were to
>receive a copy of the declaration, if possible, by registered mail. Several
>days before the convention started Brother Rutherford returned to America.
>Many in attendance were disappointed in the “declaration,” since in many
>points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Brother
>Mtze from Dreseden, who had worked closely with Brother Balzereit up
>until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. It
>was not the first time that Brother Balzereit had watered down the clear and
>unmistakable language of the Society’s publications so as to avoid
>difficulties with governmental agencies.
>A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In
>fact, a former pilgrim brother [traveling evangelist] by the name of
>Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It
>could not rightfully be said that the declaration was unanimously adopted,
>even though Brother Balzereit later notified Brother Rutherford that it had
>been.
>The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took
>2,100,000 copies of the “declaration” home with them, however, and made
>fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in
>positions of responsibility. The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a
>letter that, in part, read:
>”The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been
>exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society
>and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80
>years’ imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two
>magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda
>against Germany.”
>Even though the declaration had been weakened and many brothers could not
>wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and
>started a wave of persecution against those who had distributed it.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][16]
>The question now arises, how well does this account stand up?
>In the first place, it continues to assert wrongly in the tradition of
>Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose that there were 7,000
>present at the 1933 Berlin convention. The Declaration is clear in
>repeatedly asserting that there were only 5,000 delegates there. But that
>is a small matter.
>What is more significant is that the 1974 Yearbook account
>assumes – apparently on no more authority than the unsubstantiated beliefs
>of a “Brother Mtze from Dreseden”-that
>Paul Balzereit was the one who “weakened” the Declaration.
>Balzereit may well have been responsible for having the
>Declaration translated into German, and he may also have been responsible
>for drafting the letter to Hitler. Yet there is clear evidence to suggest
>that he did not tamper with the wording of the Declaration.
>First, the Watch Tower Society published the English version
>of the Declaration – which is virtually identical to the German version –
>in the 1934 Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses as its official
>statement to Hitler, the German government, and German officials, high and
>low; and this it would not have done without Rutherford’s full approval.
>Second, the English version of the Declaration is clearly written
>in the judge’s own bombastic style.
>Third, the statements directed against the Jews in the
>Declaration are more in keeping with what an American such as Rutherford
>would have written rather than a German. How, for example, would Balzereit
>know the “proverb,” so called, concerning New York which says: “the Jews own
>it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills”? Fourth,
>Rutherford had been guilty of a similar compromise with secular authority
>in the United States in 1918 in a vain attempt to escape imprisonment.[*][17]
>Then finally, he was an autocrat supreme who would not have
>brooked the serious type of insubordination that Balzereit would have been
>guilty of had he “weakened” the Declaration.
>While it must be admitted that this evidence, although strong, is
>circumstantial rather than direct, this makes little difference in the long
>run. Regardless of who wrote the Declaration, the fact is that it was
>published as an official document of the Watch Tower Society.
>Thus the American leaders of the Society – and Judge J. F.
>Rutherford in particular – were directly responsible for what was outright
>anti-Semitism and a willingness to compromise their loudly trumpeted
>principle of “Christian neutrality” in order to continue their publishing
>and preaching work in Germany.
>So the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses, like the those who led almost
>every other church, sect, and cult in the Third Reich were willing, under
>the circumstances of the times, to betray their most sacred values.
>But that is not all.
>The Watch Tower Society is guilty of an ongoing cover-up of its past
>concerning these matters. While the Society still boasts of the bravery
>of German Jehovah’s Witnesses in their refusal to submit to the dictates of
>Nazism, it also continues to try to hide its leaders’ attempt to compromise
>with the Nazis in 1933. Although The Watchtower of October 1, 1984
>quoted from Christine King’s The Nazi State and the New
>Religions, its publishers failed to note what Dr. King had written about
>the Society’s 1933 Declaration of Facts.
>For example, in a brief evaluation of that document, she makes what,
>from a Witness standpoint, is a rather damning remark. She says:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”The document is a master of its kind and worthy of the
>other four sects [the Christian Scientists, the Latter-day Saints, the
>Seventh-day Adventists and members of the New Apostolic Church] all of
>whom supported, in one way or another, the Nazi state.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][18]
>In another paragraph, she remarks:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Having attempted to assure the authorities by the
>Declaration of Facts, of their good citizenship, having interpreted and
>explained their teachings in a way, which given the preoccupations of the
>regime, was designed to allay fears and offer a hint of compromise, the
>Witnesses seemed to have expected little further harassment. Had the
>Declaration not condemned with the Nazis, the League of Nations, had it
>not described National Socialism as standing out against the injustices
>Germans had suffered since 1919 and had it not ended with a personal
>appeal to the Fhrer?”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>[*][19]
>So it is hardly possible that the present-day leadership of the Society
>can be ignorant of the Declaration and its compromising, anti-Semitic
>nature.
>Despite such statements by Dr. King, however, the June 8, 1985 Awake!
>(p. 10) damned both the Catholic and the Protestant clergy for
>supporting Nazism and proclaimed: “However, there was one group in Germany
>that courageously championed Christian principles. That group was Jehovah’s
>Witnesses. Unlike the clergy and their followers, the Witnesses refused to
>compromise with Hitler and the Nazis. They refused to violate God’s
>commandments. They would not break their Christian neutrality in political
>affairs. (See Isaiah 2:2-4; John 17:16; James 4:4.) They did not attribute
>Heil, or salvation, to Hitler, as did the overwhelming majority of their
>flocks.” And more recent issues of both Awake! and The Watchtower
>have taken much the same tack.
>Awake! published several articles on the Holocaust in its April 8,
>1989 issue in which it argued rightly that many others besides Jews had
>died as a result of Nazi extermination policies. Dealing with the
>persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1933 to the collapse of the Third
>Reich in 1945, one of these articles, “The Holocaust: Victims or Martyrs?”,
>states on page 12:
>”They [Jehovah’s Witnesses] were of many nationalities but were
>misconstrued as a pacifist threat to Germany’s National Socialist regime
>because of their Christian stand of neutrality and refusal to be
>incorporated into the war effort of any nation. Hitler called them a
>`brood to be exterminated.'”
>Significantly, this article also quotes Christine King, but it makes no
>mention of either the Declaration of Facts or the Society’s 1933 letter
>to Hitler.
>Then, just after the publication of the April 8, 1989 Awake!, a
>series of articles appeared in the April 1 and 15 and May 1 and 15, 1989
>issues of The Watchtower on the subject of “Babylon the Great.”
>Referring to the great “whore” or “harlot” described at Revelation 17, these
>articles identified her as the world-wide empire of false religion which
>has “committed fornication with the kings of the earth.” Accordingly, The
>Watchtower censured both Catholicism and Protestantism – which they
>regard as parts of Babylon the Great – in the harshest terms for having
>supported various European secular governments in past centuries and,
>especially, for having been in league with Nazism during the Second World
>War. But not once in these articles does the anonymous author admit that,
>from the standpoint of their own teachings, Watch Tower leaders were also
>were willing to commit “fornication” with the rulers of the Third Reich
>had the Nazis been willing to let them get into bed with them.
>What is even more serious is that when confronted with the facts relating
>to the Watch Tower German Declaration of 1933, the Society’s spokesmen have
>denied them categorically. In 1985, when I published a brief synopsis of
>the nature of the Declaration in my book Apocalypse Delayed,[20]
>Watch Tower officials attacked me in the strongest terms, practically calling
>me a liar.
>The Society’s public relations officer for Canada, Walter
>Graham, claimed “the declaration was neither to placate Hitler nor
>anti-Semitic,” and he said respecting me:
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”Penton does have an axe to grind. He has
>been trying to discredit the Jehovah’s Witnesses ever since he was removed
>from the society.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Yet curiously, he admitted that he had not read the evidence that I had
>presented. He said: We aren’t interested in reading it. We’re not interested
>in what James Penton does, writes or thinks, because he has chosen not to be
>one of us.”[*][21] In a similar
>vein, Eugene Rosam, a senior Watch Tower official of Jewish ancestry,
>refused to comment on Apocalypse Delayed.”We have
>no comment on the publication,” said Rosam. “Anybody can
>write a book and get it published. It’s just surprising some people refer
>to it as if it were Gospel.”[*][22]
>It is not surprising that Jehovah’s Witness leaders are reluctant
>to discuss the nature of the Declaration, the Watch Tower letter to Hitler,
>or the Berlin convention of June 1933 any more than is necessary. After all,
>no religious organization is anxious to broadcast its past sins. Yet the
>cover-up surrounding the nature of those events is hypocritical, especially
>since the Watch Tower Society is so uncharitable towards other religions
>over their collaboration with Nazism. None the less, the Watch Tower Society
>has no other real option than to attempt to continue that cover-up.
>Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the collective body of persons who have
>governed them since 1919 have been and are the “anointed footstep
>followers Jesus Christ, described as `the remaining ones of her [God’s
>heavenly organization’s] seed, who observe the commandments of God and
>have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.'”
>[*][23]
>Thus to admit that they had compromised with a regime such as that of
>Hitler would be contradictory to this claim. On the basis of their own
>teachings, it would make them just another part ofBabylon the
>Great! So in order to demonstrate clearly that the account
>given in this article is historically accurate and that the basic facts
>presented are irrefutable, we reprint full documentation in the pages that
>follow.
>DOCUMENT A
>KONRAD FRANKE’S TESTIMONY
> Konrad Franke, later Watch Tower Society branch servant (director or overseer)
>for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany, was present at the June 26, 1933 Witness
>convention in Berlin. In 1976 Franke gave a series of two part lectures (which
>lasted about three hours in all) in many places throughout West Germany. These
>lectures were entitled “The History of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany.”
>Significantly, they contained information on the 1933 Berlin convention which
>has never been published by the Watch Tower Society. Those lectures were tape
>recorded and have been transcribed in full. The statement which appears below
>is an English translation of remarks taken from them:
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>.. At the last moment, therefore, we were invited to a special assembly in
>Prussia, thus Berlin, [to be held] in the Tennis Hall, where a “Declaration”
>was to be presented. Many were now unable to come [to the convention], but I
>had the privilege of traveling with Brother Albert Wandres from Wiesbaden to
>Berlin on a motorcycle through torrential rain. That did not bother us too
>much, but we were shocked when we arrived at the Tennis Hall the next morning
>and did not find that atmosphere which we ordinarily found at [Jehovah’s
>Witness] conventions. When we entered, we found the hall bedecked with Swastika
>flags! But not only that: when the meeting started, it was preluded by a song
>which we had not sung for years, especially not in Germany, because of the
>melody. Though the lyrics were fine, the melody–well, the musicians who are
>here will recognize that the notes were [taken from the] the melody of
>”Deutschland, Deutschland, ber alles”!
> Can you imagine how we felt? Many could not join in the singing; it was just
>as though their throats were throttled. What kind of leaders did we have who
>brought us [into] such dangers–and the danger of faltering under these
>circumstances–instead of helping and supporting us, so that we could take a
>fearless stand [against Nazism]. May all elders who are here among us
>[listening to this lecture] learn something from these examples, and may they
>recognize their responsibilities in such matters in the near future.
> Now the Declaration, which Brother Rutherford had prepared, was approved, and
>every person was instructed to take 250 copies home if he possibly could. If he
>then had the courage to do so, he was to send copies of it by registered mail
>to judges, lawyers, mayors, etc.
> At the time, I sent fifty-two registered letters [with the Declaration], and
>the result was that a few days later I found myself in a concentration camp for
>the first time, when most people had no idea what a concentration camp was.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>DOCUMENT B
>Declaration of Facts
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”This company of German people, who are peaceable and law-abiding citizens
>representing many others from every part of Germany, all of whom are earnestly
>laboring for the highest welfare of the people of this land, being now duely
>assembled at Berlin this 25th day of June, A.D. 1933, do joyfully declare our
>complete devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to his kingdom under Christ
>Jesus, whose shed blood bought the human race. We declare that the holy
>Scriptures set forth in the Bible constitute the Word of Jehovah God given to
>men for their guidance in righteousness, and that the Word of God is the truth,
>and that it is of greatest importance that man have a knowledge of his
>relationship to God. We ask to be judged by the standard of the Word of God.
> “Christ Jesus is Jehovah God’s great Witness to the truth, and as his faithful
>and devoted followers we are, by His grace, witnesses to the truth. The purpose
>of this Declaration is that we may present a true and faithful witness before
>rulers and the people as to the name and purpose of Jehovah God and our
>relation thereto.
> “We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government and
>before the people of this nation; and in order that the name of Jehovah God may
>be exalted in the minds of the people, and that his benevolent purposes be
>better understood and our position fairly placed before the government, we do
>respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and
>impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made.
> “The Scriptures plainly state that the chief opposer of Jehovah God and the
>greatest enemy of mankind is Satan the Devil, whose name is also that of
>Serpent and Dragon. It is written in the Scriptures that Satan, who has long
>been the invisible ruler of this world, deceives and blinds the people to the
>truth in order that the light of and concerning Jehovah God and Christ Jesus
>may not shine into the minds of men. (2 Corinthians 4: 3,4) Frequently by
>fraud, subtility [sic] and deception Satan has induced honest persons to
>war with each other, in order that he might turn them all away from God and
>destroy them. Above all things, the people need to know Jehovah God and his
>gracious provision for their general welfare.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Jews
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”By the term `clergy’, as used in our literature, reference is made to the
>class of professed religious teachers, priests and Jesuits who employ improper
>political means to accomplish their ends and join forces even with those who
>deny God and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the same class to whom Jesus
>referred as his persecutors. We have no criticism of any honest religious
>teacher.
> “When Jesus went to the Jews to tell them of the truth, it was the Jewish
>clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him
>and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and
>offenses. They refused to hear the truth, and addressing them Jesus said: “Why
>do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of
>your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a
>murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth
>in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and
>the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.’ (John
>8: 43-45) Although the Pharisees and priests then claimed to represent Jehovah
>God Jesus told them that they were in fact the representatives of Satan the
>Devil.
> “We have no fight with any persons or religious teachers, but we must call
>attention to the fact that it is generally those who claim to represent God and
>Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the
>governments and nations. As true followers of Christ Jesus we are to expect
>such opposition, and we mention it here in explanation of why we have been
>misrepresented before the rulers of this nation. To his faithful followers
>Jesus said: `Remember the word I said unto you, The servant is not greater than
>his lord. If they [the false religious teachers] have persecuted me, they will
>also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.’
>(John 15: 20) Furthermore, Jesus said that this same class of men would cause
>his true followers to be wrongfully charged before the ruling powers, his
>language being: `But take heed to yourselves: for they [false religious
>teachers] shall deliver you up to councils [police power]; and in the
>synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings
>for my sake, for a testimony against them.’ (Mark 13: 9) This explains why
>Jehovah God now permits his faithful witnesses to be misrepresented and
>persecuted, namely, that those of a wrong spirit may identify themselves as
>opponents of God and thus bear witness against themselves. The same
>materialistic spirit that caused the persecution of Jesus Christ now exists and
>is back of the persecution of us his faithful followers.
> “It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support
>for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour
>there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by
>Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the
>Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and
>emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man’s
>good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no
>support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously
>false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy.
> “The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American
>empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of
>America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American
>empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting
>and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to
>the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is
>so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York
>which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans
>pay the bills.’ We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as
>the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the
>Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same
>in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose.
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Our Literature
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”It is said that our books and like literature, when circulated amongst the
>people, constitute a danger to the peace and safety of the nation. We are
>certain that his conclusion is due to the fact that our books and other
>literature have not been carefully examined by the rulers and hence are not
>properly understood. We respectfully call attention to the fact that these
>books and other literature were written originally in America and the language
>therein used has been adapted to the American style of plainness of speech and,
>when translated into German, the same appears to be harsh. We admit that the
>same truths might be stated in a less blunt and more pleasing phrase, and yet
>the language of these books follows closely the language of the Bible.
> “It should be borne in mind that in the British Empire and in America the
>common people have suffered and are now suffering greatly because of the
>misrule of Big Business and conscienceless politicians, which misrule has been
>and is supported by political religionists, and hence the writers of our books
>or literature have endeavored to employ plain language to convey to the people
>the proper thought or understanding. The language used, however, is not as
>strong or emphatic as that used by Jesus Christ in denouncing the oppressors
>and false teachers of his time.
> “The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big
>Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in
>the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we
>further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big
>Business and the wrongful political religious influence, because the Holy
>Scriptures plainly declare that these oppressive instruments proceed from the
>Devil, and that the complete relief therefrom is God’s kingdom under Christ. It
>is therefore impossible for our literature or our work to in any wise be a
>danger or a menace to the peace and safety of the state.
> “Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching
>the Word of Jehovah God to the people, and that without hindrance. We do not
>object or try to hinder anyone’s teaching or believing what he desires, but we
>only ask the freedom to believe and teach what we conceive the bible to teach,
>and then let the people decide which they wish to believe.
> “To know Jehovah God and his gracious provision for mankind is of most vital
>importance to all persons, because God has declared in His Word that where
>there is no vision or understanding of his Word the people perish. (Proverbs
>29: 18) We have devoted our lives and our material substance to the work of
>enabling the people to gain a vision or understanding of God’s Word, and
>therefore it is impossible for our literature and our work to be a menace to
>the peace and safety of the nation. Instead of being against the principles
>advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles,
>and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full
>realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and
>prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.
> “Our organization seeks neither money nor members, but we are a company or
>organized body of Christian people engaged solely in the benevolent work of
>teaching the Word of God to the people at the least possible cost to them. Our
>organization was originally incorporated in the United States of America in
>1884 under the name of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY, and in 1914
>incorporated under the laws of Great Britain by the name of the INTERNATIONAL
>BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION. These are merely the corporate names of our
>organization for legally carrying forward its work. The Scriptural name by
>which we are known is `Jehovah’s witnesses’. We are engaged solely in a
>benevolent work. The purpose of our organization is to aid the people to
>understand the Bible, which discloses the only possible way for the complete
>relief and blessing for mankind. Our organization has extended its work
>throughout the earth. The education, culture and upbuilding of the people must
>and will come through the agency of God’s kingdom concerning which we teach as
>set forth in the Bible. The salvation of the people depends upon the true
>knowledge of and obedience to Jehovah God and his righteous ways.
> “The people are in great distress and in need of help to understand the reason
>for their unhappy condition and what is the means of relief. The Scriptures,
>when understood, make this matter clear. Instead of collecting money from the
>people and using the same to erect great buildings and to support men in
>luxury, we print the gospel message of God’s kingdom and carry it to the homes
>of the people that they may, at the least inconvenience to themselves, gain a
>knowledge of God’s purposes concerning them.
> “A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that
>the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government
>are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and
>show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be
>attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High.
>Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work’s being a menace to the
>principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such
>high ideals. For this reason Satan, the enemy of all men who desire
>righteousness, has sought to misrepresent our work and prevent us from carrying
>it on in this land.
> “For many years our organization has put forth an unselfish and persistent
>effort to do good to the people. Our American brethren have greatly assisted in
>the work in Germany, and with money freely contributed, and that at a time when
>all Germany was in dire distress. Now because it appears that Germany may soon
>be free from oppression and that the people may be lifted up, Satan, the great
>enemy, puts forth his endeavors to destroy that benevolent work in this land..
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>League of Nations
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> “The language in our books or literature concerning the League of Nations has
>been seized upon as a reason for prohibiting our work and the distribution of
>our books. Let us remind the government and the people of Germany that it was
>the League of Nations compact that laid upon the shoulders of the German people
>the great unjust and unbearable burdens. That League of Nations compact was not
>brought forth by the friends of Germany. In America at one time the public
>press announced that 140,000 clergymen had set aside a certain period of time
>in which a concerted movement was to be made, and which was made, to induce the
>American people to fully endorse the League of Nations. It was the Federation
>of Churches in America that issued a manifesto stating that the `League of
>Nations is the political expression of God’s kingdom on earth’, and which by
>them was substituted in the place and stead of God’s kingdom under Christ. It
>was in America that our organization under the visible leadership of its
>president pointed out emphatically that the League of Nations is not an
>institution of Jehovah God, because it is oppressive and unfair. It was that
>condition, existing at the time, which called forth language that appears in
>our books concerning the League of Nations and also calling attention to the
>fact that such League of Nations compact can never bring about the relief and
>blessing of the people, because such relief and blessing can come by adhering
>strictly to the principles laid down in God’s Word and in the manner which
>Jehovah has pointed out.
> “For almost half a century our strictly Christian organization has carried on
>its work in various parts of the earth. Its books are published in more than 50
>languages, and upward of 140 million of these books are in the hands of the
>people. for more than thirty years our books and literature have been
>distributed throughout Germany, and millions of these are now in the hands of
>the German people and are read by the people, all of whom will bear testimony
>to the fact that these books, based strictly on the Bible, are of great help to
>them and upbuild them and give them hope for a realization of the blessings
>which Jehovah God long ago promised. In all these years of our work, and in the
>wide distribution of our books and literature, not one instance can be
>truthfully cited wherein our work or literature has been a menace to the
>government or has in any wise endangered the peace and safety of the nations.
> “The endeavors of our organization being exclusively confined to bearing
>testimony to the name and Word of Jehovah God, it would be entirely
>inconsistent for us to attempt to exert any political influence in the
>governments of this world or to do anything that would endanger the peace and
>safety of the nation. We have no desire nor inclination to do anything except
>top carry out our divinely given commission to proclaim the Word of Jehovah
>God.
> “In America, Canada and other parts of the British Empire the political
>clergy, priests and Jesuits have persistently persecuted and continue to
>persecute those of our organization, and without just cause or excuse; and we
>have every reason to believe that a like influence has been subtilly
>[sic] employed by the great enemy Satan to misrepresent us and our work
>in Germany. We remind you that in the years past the political clergymen have
>brought more sorrow upon the German people than probably any other class of
>men. We have no desire to fight with the clergymen, but we do ask that the
>ruling powers of the nation judge us not by the misrepresentation of such men,
>but that we be judged according to the Word of God and the work we are doing
>consistent therewith. Jehovah God persecutes no on, but permits each one to
>chose his own course, holding him responsible for his acts according to
>knowledge. Jehovah God has emphatically expressed his anger against those who
>do persecute others who are trying to serve him; and this proves that those who
>persecute us do so do not represent God, but that they are incited so to do by
>the enemy of God and man.–Psalm 72:4
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Great Truths
>
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>”The Holy Scriptures, viewed in the light of present-day events which are in
>fulfilment of divine prophecy, disclose that: The time has arrived when Jehovah
>will make his name known to all creation and vindicate his name and clear it
>from the defamation which Satan has placed against that holy name. (Psalm 83:
>18) When Jesus Christ, the Vindicator, ascended into heaven Jehovah commanded
>him to wait until his due time to put the enemy down. That period of waiting
>has now come to an end and God has sent forth his beloved Son to oust the enemy
>and rule in righteousness. (Psalm 110: 1-4; Hebrews 10: 12,13) The world, or
>uninterrupted rule, of Satan has ended, and this began to be evidenced by the
>World War in 1914, and since then until now is the time when the gospel of the
>Kingdom must be told to the people. (Matthew 24: 3,4) Satan has now been cast
>out of heaven and down to the earth and now confines his operations to the
>earth in an endeavor to blind the people to the truth and destroy them, and
>that is the reason for the present-day sufferings of humanity. The prophetic
>words of Jesus now apply: `Woe to the inhabiters [the rulers] of the earth, and
>of the sea [the people in general]! for the devil is come down unto you, having
>grat wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.’–Revelation 12:
>12.
> “The people of Germany have suffered great misery since 1914 and have been the
>victims of much injustice practiced upon them by others. The nationalists have
>declared themselves against all such unrighteousness and announced that `Our
>relationship to God is high and holy’. Since our organization fully endorses
>these righteous principles and is engaged solely in carrying forth the work of
>enlightening the people concerning the Word of Jehovah God, Satan by subtilty
>[sic] endeavors to set the government against our work and destroy it
>because we magnify the importance of knowing and serving God. Instead of our
>organization’s being a menace to the peace and safety of the government, it is
>the one organization standing for the peace and safety of this land.
> We beg to remind all that the great crisis is upon the world because the
>transition period from bad to good is at hand, and the hope of the world is
>God’s kingdom under Christ, for which Jesus taught his followers to constantly
>pray: `Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven.’
> “The power of Jehovah God is supreme and there is no power that can
>successfully resist him. His time to exercise his power in the interest of
>humanity and to the vindication of his great name is here. In this connection
>we respectfully call attention to the admonition and warning of Jehovah God,
>both to the rulers and to the people, which applies to this very hour, wherein
>he says: `Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion…. Be wise now,
>therefor, O ye kings; be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD
>with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye
>perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all
>they that put their trust in him.’–Psalm 2: 6, 10-12.
> “The present government having declared adherence to the aforementioned high
>ideals, we are persuaded that the rulers do not desire to knowingly resist the
>progressive witness work to the name of Jehovah god and his kingdom which we
>are now carrying forward. If our work is merely that of men, it will fall of
>its own weight. If it is of Jehovah God and being carried forward in obedience
>to his commandment, then to resist it means to fight against God.–Acts 5:
>39.
> We therefore appeal to the high sense of justice of the government and nation
>and respectfully ask that the order of prohibition against our work and our
>literature be set aside, and the opportunity be given us to have a fair hearing
>before we are judged. We respectfully ask that the government a committee of
>impartial men to hold conference with a committee of our organization and that
>a fair and impartial examination of our literature and our work be made, to the
>end that all misunderstanding may be removed and that we may without hindrance
>obey Jehovah God’s commandment now applying to us, to wit: `Go through, go
>through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up the highway;
>gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.’–Isaiah 62: 10.
> “The peoples of Germany are a God-fearing people and should not be deprived of
>an opportunity to learn of Jehovah God and of his gracious provision to bring
>lasting peace, prosperity, liberty and everlasting life on earth to all those
>who know and obey him. Let all who love God work together to the honor and
>vindication of his name. All who take a contrary course must take
>responsibility before God; but as for us we will serve Jehovah forever.
> “RESOLVED, That copies of this Declaration be respectfully delivered to high
>officials of the government and that the same be given wide publication to the
>people, that the name of Jehovah may be further known.”
>-=- [Quotation] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Please note that this document is available as a formmated HTML document
>at the following World Wide Web location:-
> http://www.nano.no/~telemark/DnSEng.html
>-=- [Footnotes] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>1 For a full account of Russell’s Zionism, see
>David Horowitz, Pastor Charles Taze Russell: An Early American Christian
>Zionist (New York: Philosophical Library, 1986.
>2 For a Watch Tower review of Life after Rutherford had
>changed W
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:15 PDT 1996
Article: 43057 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On “respected” holocaust historians
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:15:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:18:20 PM PDT 1996
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1/17/85
Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a cross-examination
that took place the
day before, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust “expert” and author
Raul Hilberg admitted
under oath that after 36 years of studying the Holocaust, 1) he
knew of no documentary
(printed) evidence that the Nazis murdered or planned to murder
Jews in gas chambers, 2)
he had identified large parts of the key “confession” of Kurt
Gerstein as to the “gassings”
as “pure nonsense” and “totally false,” 3) when presenting the
Gerstein “confession” as
proof of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in
order to make his point,
4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 5) he
billed himself as a
Holocaust expert for 18 years before even visiting Auschwitz (he
then spent only one day
there), 6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of
which he was alleged to be
the expert, and 7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew
had been gassed. (see
also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the Globe and
Mail, and the Sault Star of
1/18/85.) Understandably, when called upon to testify again in a
later trial, Hilberg begged
off.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43058 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:16:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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1/12/85
According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had
seen “fourteen foot flames” shooting out of the chimneys of
crematorium at Auschwitz, and
that he was able to tell whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish
Hungarians or skinny
Jewish Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the
crematorium. On cross-examination, however, Mr. Friedman reversed
himself upon being
presented with details of crematorium operation, and was forced to
agree that perhaps
Jews were not being burned in crematoria buildings. Mr. Friedman
then made the startling
confession that his entire testimony was based on what he had been
told by others.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN slanders Germans
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:19:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4or264$1a[email protected]> <677[email protected]> <4pca4[email protected]> <4phi75[email protected]> <4phq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77012 alt.revisionism:43060 soc.culture.jewish:56652
[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Mike Pelletier
>
>>Interesting that this topic should come up.
>>Recently, there was an article and a couple of letters published in the
>>Detroit Free Press about the deportation of Ferdinand Hammer from the US
>>as a result of the discovery of his position as a guard at Auchwitz during
>>the war.
>>Both letters to the newspaper seem to ascribe victim status to Hammer,
>>lamenting the fact that if he’d disobeyed orders, he would have been shot
>>by his commanding officers, and that he’s not to blame, the government of
>>Nazi Germany is to blame.
>Rubbish. There are lots of examples of SS who refused to obey orders in
>this regard, or refused to serve in a death camp, and I am unaware of any
>who were shot for it. Most were simply sent home.
As you know, all camp assignments of any kind were voluntary.
>>What sprang immediately to mind, and from my fingertips as I composed my
>>own letter to the editor, was the fact that Krystallnacht was not a result
>>of government orders. Nor were there guns to the backs of the crowd of
>>politicians who stood up and cheered as Hitler shouted “…[this] will
>>result in the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe!”
>Right on the second point. Wrong on the first. The Kristallnacht was
>ordered by the Government (Hitler, Goebbels and Heydrich) and was carried
>out by the SS and the SA.
Of course he lied to his diary just for the fun of it but you know
Goebbels was not surprised by it, he simply said that he was in his
diary.
I regret that does match the truth the great McFly wants to be true.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43061 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:26:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Is the problem getting through to you yet?
>Truth to tell, Giwer-troll, your problem got through to all reasonable
>people many thousand posts ago. And you can rest assured that every
>post you make confirms the certainty that the problem is entirely
>yours – and not only that, but it is entirely of your own making.
>Very sad. I think you might have a mind (and possibly even that famed
>163 IQ) But, as someone once said, a mind is a terrible thing to
>waste.
Well taken, Fat Broad.
But you have never revealed who you are laying to get a co-status when
you are so profoundly ignorant of anything involved in the Nizkor vanity
site.
Let me guess. About 18 stone. How close am I? And uglier than a human
hair doormat to boot.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43062 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this …
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:18:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Amazing what some of the heroes of the holohuggers will say when under
oath.
1/24/85
Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom,
states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were gassed at
Auschwitz, in spite of the fact
that the entire number of Jews deported from France were only
75,721. Vrba claims he
arrived at his count “scientifically” by having listened to the
language spoken by the inmates
at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The author of “I
Cannot Forgive” next
confessed that his book was “an artistic picture … not a document
for a court,” in spite of
the fact that Vrba’s testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee
Board and the Auschwitz
Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his written and
pictorial descriptions of
Auschwitz crematoria were a result of guessing, based on “what I
heard it might look like.”
Oops!
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43071 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Challenging hate is antisemitic
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:49:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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4/20/88:
Speaking at a conference on Group Defamation and the Freedom of
Speech, keynote
guest Elie Wiesel urges that freedom of speech and inquiry on the
alleged Holocaust be
proscribed. Wiesel called revisionists “the most despicable of our
enemies,” and claimed
that French revisionist scholar Dr. Robert Faurrison was “haunting”
and “persucuting” him.
When Wiesel was asked if his admonition to every Jew to maintain “a
zone of hate —
healthy, virile hate — for what the German personifies and for
what persists in the German”
might qualify as “group defamation,” conference organizer Monroe
Freedman intervened to
denounce the question as anti-Semitic.
=====
It looks like Faurrison is to Wiesel as I am to Dahlman.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:20 PDT 1996
Article: 43072 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gerstein confesses
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:52:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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again and again and again
4/26/45:
The date SS officer Kurt Gerstein’s first two (of at least six)
“confessions.” Confession 1 is
handwritten in French. Confession 2 is typewritten in French, dated
April 26, 1945 (also
presented as Nuernberg document PS-1553; rejected by the IMT but
accepted by the
AMT!). Confession 3 is typewritten in German and is dated May 4,
1945. Confession 4 is
handwritten in French, dated May 6, 1945. Confession 5 is
typewritten in French, dated May
6, 1945. And Confession 6 is typewritten in German, dated May 6,
1945. Also, there are
three distinct versions of Confession 5.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43073 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: When I said it
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:26:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>See previous response…applies here also. Seeking some credibility,
>Mr. Giwer, sir? Won’t work!
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts her that I was wrong.
Dear Chuckles,
Not ONE of your fellow holohuggers has bothered to cite you as a
refrence. They know you are making it up.
Realize that you are being tolerated, not accepted.
Email them and ask.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:21 PDT 1996
Article: 43074 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: what is a picture without a caption?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:32:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 6:35:11 PM CDT 1996
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Rather what do we do with people who falsely caption pictures to promote
lies?
12/16/83:
The West German weekly newspaper Deutsche National-Zeitung
publishes a sketch made
by Simon Wiesenthal (which first appeared in Wiesenthal’s 1946
book, KZ Mauthausen)
that supposedly shows three Mauthausen inmates who had been bound
to posts and
sadistically put to death by the Germans. Unfortunately for friends
of the Holocaust myth
(and Wiesenthal’s almost non-existent credibility), the newspaper
also reprints three photos
from the July 11, 1945 Life magazine that record the firing-squad
execution of three
German soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge. The connection?
Wiesenthal’s sketch is
shown to be nothing more than a poor rendition of the Life photos
with a politically-correct
caption. For those familiar with Wiesenthal’s book, you will
remember that he also cites a
“confession” of camp Commandant Ziereis that 4 million inmates were
gassed to death at
Mauthausen, when it is well known that no more than 206,000 people
were ever sent to
Mauthausen and its satellite camps.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:42:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4p9hr[email protected]> <4p9no[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 11:45:35 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4p[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>> In article <4[email protected]>, [email protected] says…
>> >
>> >[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>It is calculated that 1,500 Allied bombers flew over Germany on February
>> >>14, 1945. Each of these bombers was capable of carrying 200,000 tons in
>> >>incendiary bombs. Although skeptics claim that that amount of tonnage
>>
>> >This is so ludicrous. Saying somethin is ” capable of carrying 200,000
>> >tons” doesn’t mean it did. Saying “each of our bombers can carry
>> >200,000 tons in incendiary bombs” doesn’t say that they did. Your
>> >”Therefore 300,000,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Dresden” is
>> >pretty darn weak without actual RAF documents saying how what plane
>> >was loaded with what to go where.
>>
>> They must have been H-U-G-E planes to carry 200,000 tons. Since the
>payload of
>> a Flying Fortress was far less than this and not even B52’s can hit that
>> payload I’d say he is pissing in the wind.
>Giving Ehrlich606 the benifit of the doubt, I’d say it was simply a
>mistake on his part. The normal payload of the B-17, for instance, was
>6,000 lbs (3 tons). The Lancaster had a payload of 12,000 lbs (6 tons).
>Obviously, 1,500 B-17s would have a combined payload of 4,500 tons. For
>Lancs it would have been 9,000 tons.
Not only do you folks fabricate your Holocaust crap you attempt to fake
your way out of being suckered in by such an obvious joke.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:23 PDT 1996
Article: 43079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.neca.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:02:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <199606080706[email protected]> <4pf9ti$1[email protected]> <4plean[email protected]> <4pmnv3[email protected]> <4pnokf$25k[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43079 alt.usenet.kooks:25071 alt.skinheads:28001
Johan Carlson
>All this about the communists and Jews in the Netherlands are nothing
>but complete nonsense. There is not an ounce of truth in Mr. Apollos
>argument. Perhaps it’s just a stupid a joke; but more likely i beleive
>he’s another anti-semite shithead just like Mr. Giwer. Although Mr.
>Giwer is a lot more refined in his use of the English language.
Be careful. That observation is a violation of holohugger dogma.
>As you might notice english is not my native language and therefore Mr.
>Giwers ‘word games’ can seem a little strange to me. That’s not to say
>that I’m stupid (as Mr. Giwer once implied).
That is SOP in this newsgroup. But I have never critiqued your use of
english as have the holohuggers.
This b.s. about Dutch being
>a communist state involved in some great conspiracy with the Jews is not
>a Giwer invention though (correct me if I’m wrong ;).
>Mr. Johnson did well in arguing against Apollos article. But why bother;
>It is simply not true!
Save there was no such argument.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:24 PDT 1996
Article: 43081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At least part of the Degesh publication
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:37:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq3[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:40:36 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>
>> I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with
>>the long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.
>[snip]
> It has been discussed here before. The pub is for unpowered natural
>ventilation in a normal living space, with all the nooks and crannies.
>Sorry, it is not the same. Notice that they say to open the windows, not
>switch on the ventilation system.
How about the color not being blue?
> Then too, why should you believe the pub any more than the label that
>said that the product deteriorates in three months? Or more than a patent
>for that matter? If patents cannot be used as evidence, I fail to see why
>a user’s manual should be any better.
The pub disagrees with the one line from the patent that has otherwise
remainded a secret despite repeated requests for the entire patent.
But of course I am more than willing to go along with the standards of
evidence I have proposed from the beginning. Are you willing to do so?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 43082 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lack of that pesky evidence thing again
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:47:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:50:00 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>1/28/87
>> SS Gruppenfuehrer Gerhard Klopfer, who served as state secretary in
>>the Party
>> Chancellery under Martin Bormann and was the last surviving member
>>of the Wannsee
>> Conference (at which it was alleged that details were worked out
>>for the “final solution”)
>> dies in Heilbronn, West Germany. Klopfer was charged with war
>>crimes at Nuernberg, but
>> the case was dropped for lack of evidence, and in fact Klopfer was
>>permitted to resume
>> practicing law in 1956. This lends credence to the proposition that
>>the Wannsee
>> Conference had nothing to with with an extermination program.
>Moron! You’re logic, as always, is flawed.
What does “dropped for lack of evidence” mean to you?
It lends NO credence to the
>proposistion that the Wansee Conference had nothing to do with an
>extermination program.
Reading the protocol is clearly enough evidence that there was no
extermination program. Perhaps you should read it some time. The usual
gang of holohuggers here refuses to read it.
>It suggests only what it suggests … that the prosecuters had
>insufficient evidence for the charges against him
As his name is on the document and he was clearly a participant I fail
to see what insufficient evidence there was.
>If your ability to read and comprehend what you read is so poor I
>suggest you might wish to undertake a remedial reading comprehension
>class and in the meantime limit yourself to Dick, Jane, and Sally.
>See Giwer. See Giwer lie. Lie. Lie. Lie.
>See Giwer duck. Duck. Duck. Duck.
Defend your gassing all you wish in any way you can. It is still a
fabrication.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:52:23 PM CDT 1996
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“MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
… When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. ”
IMT XX – p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:35:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 7:38:47 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>>In <4pjchj$[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>writes:
>>>>>> There was never the crematoria capacity to handle this death
>>>>>>rate.
>>>>
>>>>>The crematoria were used to dispose of the bodies in only a few of
>>>the
>>>>>camps. Prior to the installation of crematoria, and in camps without
>>>>>them, bodies were burried in mass graves. It was thr realiziation
>>>that
>>>>>the mass graves were evidence of the deaths that led to the
>>>>>construction of crematoria.
>>>>
>>>> A great claim but these mass graves have never been discovered.
>>>I have
>>>>no idea why you believe they exist or ever existed.
>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp guards
>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones not
>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>What questionable statements did the soviets produce. Oh, and don’t do
>the silly “read the NG” cop out line. If missed it then repost it. It
>shouldn’t cause you much strain, you like to post. It would be nice if
>you would post something of substance rather than trollisms. Come on,
>I think you can do it. :-/
What is your problem? I am supposed to look thinks up but you are too
good for it? Why is that?
Or did you miss the testimony the Russians produced to try to get
Germans executed for Katyn Woods?
Everyone agrees that was a lie. Yet the Soviets had the statements to
back up the claim.
Did you miss the description of the steaming rooms and the boiler and
the piping at Treblinka? The subject is something like “Hey Keren”.
That was a Soviet produced story also. As was the story crematoria at
Treblinka and that more were going to be built to handle the load. That
was a Soviet story also.
So why would you trust any Soviet produced statements? And remember
that they were responsible for ALL investigations of everything that was
in the territories they liberated and for the parts of Germany they
conquered.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 43086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Giwer Ever Read a Book?
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:28:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pi[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 5:30:54 PM PDT 1996
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Nele Abels
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> The Soviets were responsible for the prosecution of all crimes
>>> that happened in the territories they liberated. Who are you
>>> claiming generated the details?
>> You are changing the subject. We are talking about “details” but the documentary evidence — including his own memoranda — used =
>as evidence against Pohl. What is the basis for your claim that those memoranda were “generated” by the Soviets? If you have nothi=
>ng more than a claim you invented, stop making the silly claim.
>>- YFW
>Read a book? What do you expect? It’s even too much for Giwer to read a
>bleeding post in its whole length – not to speak of understanding it.
>Please compare “Giwer caught lying – again (uncorrupted version)”
Since you appear to be new here let me introduce you to this person.
He says he is an attorney. He has said that witness give evidence vice
testimony in court. He even implied that the oath for a witness is,
“The evidence I am about to give…”
Now that you know that person why would you take his mere assertion as
true? Please explain.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43097 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:51:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Jim Kennemur) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:00:27 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected](David A. Hart) wrote:
>>
>>>>>Many of the mass graves have been identified both by former camp
>>>guards
>>>>>and camp inmates. I’d suggest you read the transcripts of the
>>>>>Nuremburg War Trials.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you learn that evidence in this case means bones
>>>not
>>>>questionable statements produced by the Soviets.
>>
>>>Read the post carefully. I didn’t mention “questionable statements
>>>produced by the Soviets.”
>>
>>>Some of these mass graves have been opened to confirm the testimony of
>>>former camp guards and former prisoners.
>>
>> Not of the hundreds of thousands of supposed gassing deaths. Or of you
>>claim that is true, where did this occur?
>Dodge the question with another totally irrelevant question as usual
>Matt.
The only question in this little exchange in mine. You appear to have
such a knee jerk response that you see questions where there are no
questions.
Do you also smell land where they be no land?
>>>Do you honestly believe the Holocaust did not occur?
>>
>> I have never said that. I have focused upon the gassing claims only.
>>Why would you confuse the two?
>He has confused nothing Matt. He is trying to pin you down. And you
>dodge the question again. Same old Giwer shit.
>Lets see you answer his question Matt. Do you honestly believe the
>Holocaust did not occur?
You folks constantly confuse belief with knowledge.
You folks also never get around to defining what you mean. The SWC did
do that. I posted it here just last week. They restrict it to Jews
only which is ridiculous. They also have the number wrong.
So why do you not post your definition first? Then I will tell you if I
have found convincing evidence for your definition. I may even post
contradictory evidence.
>Watch him avoid this one and change the subject again.
>Giwer the Liar!
You have still not matured. You have come into this late along with
Hart. You are setting discussion back months.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:29 PDT 1996
Article: 43103 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Web-sites revised listing
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:06:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31bd[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 10:09:13 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>>Well, Giwer is finally getting some fine fine recognition! 🙂
>>!>Matt Giwer’s World
>>!>http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>Why not a Giwer’s World? We all knew he lived in a world of his own!!
Certainly. Save I got the idea from Bruce Williams.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:39:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>>>>> It started as an observation that there were four causes of death
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution
>>>>>>>>and vacuum chambers.
>>>> The subject is Pohl, convicted of a crime that never occurred.
>>>You said (see some lines above) that the subject was the cause of
>>>death at Treblinka. Could you be a little consistent ?
>> Pohl was convicted of steaming people to death at Treblinka. Remember
>>that point? What is particular do you find inconsistant about that?
>To remember more what was the subject of this thread, read your own
>post a few lines above. The point became a Diesel motor exhaust as a
>possible (certain) cause.
And? This is about steaming. Even though Green calls it an absurd
idea, Keren is trying to claim that it was confusion by Polish spies who
could not get close enough to see what was happening and therefore
confused oil vapor with steam.
I am simply demonstrating that it was not based upon any long range
confusion, unless people were convicted upon such “testimony.” But I
have now added a description right from the IMT describing the rooms and
the boiler and the piping.
So we now have equally credible testimony of both steaming AND diesel
exhaust.
I have also taken the liberty of posting testimony of electrocution at
Treblinka.
Is the problem getting through to you yet?
>>>>>Gerstein, Pfannenstiel aso will be sufficient. They never said that
>>>>>oil was the cause of death. They said only that in 28mn-32mn the
>>>>>vitims were dead, with a stopwatch. Pfannenstiel said it too to
>>>>>Rassinier, a well-known revisionist who would be glad to hear another
>>>>>claims.
>>>> Wasn’t Gerstein the man who committed suicide immediately after
>>>>his confession and who body was immediately lost? Maybe it was
>>>>cremated in 20 minutes.
>>>You’re indeed very well-informed, in you own way. He surrendered in
>>>April 45, in Rottweil. He commited suicid in July (25) 45, in the jail
>>>of ‘Cherche-Midi” (Paris). Your ‘immediately’ can be translated in 3
>>>months. His body was never lost, except in the mind of some
>>>revisionists you have certainly read.
>> You folks never include such interesting information rather you distort
>>what happened. For example …
>> You have only said that he committed suicide three months after his
>>surrender. That is a distortion you are trying to link with the
>>confession.
>> I stated his suicide was immediately (two days if I remember correctly)
>>after the date on his confession. And then in fact the body was lost
>>which I find quite as amazing as the FBI losing a steel door from their
>>property room. Just where do you lose a body?
>It is certainly a sort of personal remembering. When Gerstein
>surrendered in April 45, he spent in this place, in semi-liberty, a
>whole month to write reports in French, German, English. Six reports,
>if I am right. After this, and not two days after, he was jailed in
>Paris, and committed suicide, in July (25).
All different, several variations of one of them, and none admitted into
evidence at the IMT due to lack of credibility.
>YOU are trying to link it with the confession. He dyed two months
>after writing his reports. It’s easy to find what happened to his
>corpse (try to read André Chelain, “La thèse de Nantes et l’affaire
>Roques,”, Paris, Polémique, 1989).
Six confessions in one month. Fascinating. Very prolific. Also quite
the linguist. Lets see how much I remember here. The first is
handwritten in French. The second is typed in French and different from
the handwritten version. That’s about it. The post with the details
will be coming through soon.
>> It is strange that people ask such questions when the shelf life is
>>until the can rusts away and the stuff leaks out.
>You’re perhaps yourself a little rusty and leaking out.
Cute and to the point. It was a stupid question.
>>>But Pfannenstiel was still alive when Rassinier met him. And he said
>>>the same thing that Gerstein, excepted what involved him personnally.
>> What does this have to do with the subject of a written confession?
>Pfannenstiel wrote too his own confession. Since he din’t know that
>Gerstein was dead, he admitted himself to have seen a gassing in
>Belzec. He said he wasn’t in Treblinka, but he knew too that it was in
>this place that Gerstein testimonied about his speech, about the
>greatness of the work, the importance of the mission.
>Do you then guess what is the relation with Gerstein’s written
>confession ?
No reason to guess. Why not tell me?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43111 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent False Witness
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 02:42:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:45:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
> Here’s a question I have regarding Elie Wiesel; I’ll be
>interested to see what sort of responses I get.
> Wiesel has chronicled his experiences during the events we call
>the Holocaust. Alexsandr Solzhinietsyn (sp?) has chronicled his
>experiences in the Siberian gulags of the Stalinist and post-Stalinist
>era.
> Why is it I don’t see posts about “Solzhenietsyn the Weasel?”
>”Solzhenietsyn the Liar” etc? After all, according to many revisionists
>there’s a concerted effort to produce “anti-German” propaganda and to
>minimize the excesses committed by the Soviets. Surely _The First
>Circle_ or _The Gulag Archipelago_ are pretty nasty condemnations of the
>Soviet Union — at least as inflammatory as some of Wiesel’s work.
> Where are the “Soviet apologists” I keep hearing about, and why
>aren’t they launching personal attacks on _One Day In The Life of Ivan
>Denisovich?_
> Could it be that there are more “anti-Semites” than
>”anti-Soviets?”
The Soviet apologists were doing exactly what you suggest until
Krushchev openly tried to abolish them and almost had an early
retirement over even talking about them.
After that the Soviet apologists were saying it was a long tradition and
that the prisons were supposed to be worse than the work camps. The
apologists were doing this regarding Solzhenietsyn’s work.
And then when Gorby simply abolished them they were left with nothing to
say.
Beyond that Solzhenietsyn did not report fanciful things that violated
physical law. He did not report a grand string of coincidences. He did
not change his story over time.
And he has not advocated preserving a personal hatred for all what is in
the Russian spirit.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43113 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Challenging hate is antisemitic
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:35:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:38:58 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Speaking at a conference on Group Defamation and the Freedom of
>>Speech, keynote
>> guest Elie Wiesel urges that freedom of speech and inquiry on the
>>alleged Holocaust be
>[blah, blah, blah deleted]
>Matt, you’ve been posting on BBSs and newsgroups for what, ten years?
>Twenty? Haven’t you yet figured out how to format a message? Ask your
>kid. Maybe he can explain this to you.
I have. The format is not to delete things like challenging Wiesel’s
call to preserve hatred for Germans is called antisemitic. Inserting
“blah, blah, blah” for his call for ethnic hatred is not considered an
honest editting style. To try to cover his call for ethnic hatred is
not considered an honest discussion.
To attempt to cover his racism is not considered honest.
But you do know that.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 43115 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:03:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 10:06:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Marty Kelley
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Marty Kelley
>>
>> >One of Matt Giwer’s more bizarre trolls lately has been to claim that
>> >witness accounts of gassing victims’ screaming is proof that the accounts
>> >must be false, since, as everybody knows, men do not scream in mortal
>> >terror. Only women do.
>>
>> >Leaving aside the fact that I personally have, on at least three
>> >occasions (ask my wife!) had nightmares from which I woke up screaming,
>> >and the fact that I screamed when a I became aware that a burglar was in my
>> >apartment (ask my ex-wife…no connection between the burglary and the
>> >divorce, BTW), let’s look at a historical even, which perhaps Mr. Giwer
>> >will see the need to revise in light of his great knowledge of human
>> >behavior.
>>
>> >I just finished James Welch’s outstanding book _Killing Custer_, which
>> >focuses on the Native Americans’ viewpoint on the events surrounding the
>> >battle of the Little Bighorn. In the afterword, filmmaker Paul Stekler
>> >(with whom Welch co-wrote the script for a documentary that this book
>> >grew out of) cites a letter written by Private Charles Windolph, a
>> >survivor of Major Marcus Reno’s unsuccessful first charge on the Indian
>> >camp at the Little Bighorn. Steckler writes that Windolph described how
>> >”Soldiers staggered aimlessly, many wounded and bleeding, while
>> >terror-stricken stragglers fell through a disorganized skirmish line at
>> >the top of the ridge. . . . The wounded lay screaming on the ground, many
>> >crying for water in the oppressive heat.” (P. 287)
>>
>> >Prediction: Mr. Giwer will say that it doesn’t count that these men were
>> >screaming, since they were wounded. I believe he _does_ allow an
>> >exception for men to scream in pain, just not in terror… How exactly he
>> >knows what part of a scream comes from pain and what part from terror
>> >could be an interesting question for this expert on human behavior to
>> >explain.
>>
>> Any asshole can predict what he has already read me say. And you
>> have proved you are in the any asshole category. How about a
>> real prediction next time?
>I guess I can also reliably predict that you will continue both to object
>to ad hominem comments even as you call others “asshole”….
>I notice that you don’t address the possibility that these men were
>screaming both from pain and terror (and any realistic understanding of
>the behavior of Custer’s troops must acknowledge that they were indeed
>panicked. I must again ask: how would you differentiate between screams
>of pain and screams of terror?
If says clearly, the wounded lay screaming. The “terror stricken
stragglers” are not described as screaming. Can you not read?
Or is it that what you can imagine has been elevated to the level of
conclusive evidence?
>> >But let us explore this fascinating generalization of Mr. Giwer’s more
>> >thoroughly: Do men scream from terror? I’m pretty sure I do,
>>
>> Really? For help or just scream? But you are only “pretty
>> sure.” What else do you have going for your position?
>When the burglar was in my apartment, I screamed in pure terror at waking up
>and realizing that someone was in the room. “Pretty sure” is an ironic
>understatement, snookums. (Bonus points if you can spot the irony in the
>preceding sentence!)
Frankly I do not believe you as it is unclear how you could have been
anything but surprised upon just waking up.
>> Let’s give Mr. Giwer’s weighty objection to the
>> >authenticity of eyewitness testimony the serious empirical investigation
>> >it deserves.
>> As you know, descriptions of US gas chamber executions do not
>> include screams from pain.
>I’d be willing to cede that, Mr. Giwer. Now, have you done a
>comprehensive search of all accounts of executions to see whether any
>prisoners screamed in terror of their impending death?
More than enough to find it absent. Crying, can’t walk (the more common
male response to terror, loss of motor control to some degree,) trying
to fight on the negative side and general calmness for the most part.
>I have a friend who’s a clinical psychologist. I’ll ask him if men
>scream in terror, and post his answer.
Don’t forget, pure screams, not for help, not from pain, nothing but
screaming. You might also ask if women really do it outside of fiction
for any other purpose than that they know it gets men to come running to
help.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43117 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (0/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:12:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:15:53 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article
>(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
>> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
>[snip]
>> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>I stand corrected.
>> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
>absorption
>> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>>
>> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>>
>> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
>Undoubtably true. I’ve never _claimed_ to be a chemist…. But thanks for
>the info! };->
So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
“eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
gone, not when fresh.
So we are left with fabricated stories from eyewitnesses as always.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:34 PDT 1996
Article: 43118 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.chem
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B.jpg (1/1) Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:19:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pklr[email protected]> <4plf[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:22:25 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43118 sci.chem:37105
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >BEGIN — Cut Here — cut here
>> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>>
>> Next time …
>>
>> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine….
Anyone believing the Mac has anything to do with the market, including
all UNIX variations is an idiot.
Beyond that, as spaces have been the fundamental parsing rule since
computers were programmed with patch panels (early 1950s) it is quite
difficult to believe you are telling the truth. Are you really claiming
the Mac OS knows when and when not to ignore spaces?
>> 2) Post a color picture.
>The photo was b/w.
That does not prove blue any more than the fanciful picture of Jewish
women beind shot proved they were either women or Jewish.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:35 PDT 1996
Article: 43119 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Eldridge Cleaver (was: Wow Les)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 02:21:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:32252 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22614 alt.discrimination:48434 alt.revisionism:43119 alt.skinheads:28029
[email protected] (Jeff Frane) wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:16:40 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jeff Frane) wrote:
>>
>>>The Turner Diaries was clearly written as a propaganda piece — or, in
>>>any event, it has been *used* that way by White Separatists. You can
>>>define it as “fiction” if you want, but “fiction” can just as easily
>>>be propaganda as any non-fiction.
>>
>>>To claim that “fiction advocates nothing” is either ignorant or a lie.
>>>Shall we claim that Ayn Rand was advocating nothing in her fiction?
>>>Or Jack London? Or George Orwell? Or Aldous Huxley?
>>
>> Right. Ayn Rand was advocating the economic collapse of the US.
>Uh, where does this come from?
>You, Matt, made the claim that “fiction advocates nothing”, which is
>clearly utter bullshit. I offered a couple of examples of advocacy
>fiction. What that has to do with Ayn Rand “advocating the economic
>collapse of the US” is obviously nothing, except in the disordered
>shadows of your own mind.
You have never read Atlas Shrugged obviously.
>> You have a lot to learn. Particularly in regard to the metophoric use
>>of fiction as advocacy.
>I have a lot to learn? From you, I suppose? You can’t even spell
>metaphoric!
When all else fails, attack the spelling. It is all rote memorization
minds like yours can handle.
>> You also have a lot to learn about the use of fiction to make money.
>Considering you know absolutely *Nothing* about my involvement with
>the publishing world, this is treading on thin ice, even for you. Not
>to mention that *nothing* in anything I wrote could lead you to
>believe that. We have yet to even discuss the question of making
>money at writing fiction — do we have a failed fiction writer here,
>Matt? Hmmm?
I could care less about what you have ever written or sold. However to
pretend that a work could not be written solely to make money regardless
of content does indicate a degree of ignorance of writing for profit I
would describe as profound.
>> It is also good to see you admit you have not read it.
>What haven’t I read ? Fountainhead? or the Turner Diaries?
Turner Diaries of course. Atlas Shrugged certainly.
>Yes, it’s true, I have not read the Turner Diaries. I see no reason
>to read such pablum, any more than I read books in the Babysitter Club
>series.
It is good to see that you are willing to continue your ignorance and
let others form your opinion for you. Let me guess, you did not read
The Bell Curve either.
I have read an excerpt, however, in which the brave boys drag
>some people out and lynch them — or was that the novel that started
>the KKK? I have a hard time keeping the White Boy Wet Dreams
>straight; they are all so predictable and childish.
As you have not read it, how do you know it was a true except? How do
you know it did not come from an anti-KKK novel?
You don’t know a damned thing about it and you are running off at the
mouth as though you know something. You should at least be honest and
credit the people from whom you stole your opinion with the opinion.
In other words stop saying “it is” (as you admit you do not know) rather
say “John Smith says it is” which would be honest. Alternatively you
could say “the excerpt I read, purported to come from the book, was
…”. That would show honesty also.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:36 PDT 1996
Article: 43121 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos deny the story
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:13:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:15:56 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>The title of this thread should be called “Moran denies the photos” given
>that Moran completely and unequivocably misrepresents both the photo in
>_Scientific Amercian_ and the sequence of events that led to the final
>destruction of the Kremas. Moran’s claim that the Nazis did not start the
>demolition of the Kremas months prior to their actual destruction in
>January 1945 and the Russian liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau is clearly
>contradict the by eywitness testimony, photographs, and SS reports that
>clearly detail otherwise.
>> Published in “Scientific American” March, 1996, “The Art and
>> Science of Photoreconnaissance” is a aerial photograph of the
>> Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.
>> Even though the Holocaust story has it that all the crematoriums
>> were destroyed by the Nazis this photograph taken Jan. 14, 1945, four
>> days before the Soviet liberation of the camp on Jan. 18th, shows
>> three of them intact. Cremas II, III and V.
>”…This image, taken as Russian troops approached on January 14, 1945,
>shows the snow that Elie Weisel, who was in the complex at the tiome,
>wrote of in _Night_. The photograph indicates that the gas chambers have
>been or are being destroyed and that the evacuation of the complex had
>begun….” (Scientific Amercian_, March 1996; p.84 .)
Pardon me for barging in here, but of what significance is there to a
mention of snow in Poland in January? Does it mean you would believe I
was in Poland in January if I said there was snow on the ground?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:36 PDT 1996
Article: 43154 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: As blue as blue can be
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:32:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:35:00 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>[followups trimmed to alt.revisionism only]
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>>>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>>>>see?
>>>>
>>>>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>>>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>>>>blue silica gel?
>>>>
>>>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>>>>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>>>>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>>>>once.)
>>
>>>Is it Mr. Giwer’s assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>>Yes or no?
>>
>> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust
>>stories. If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
>>
>> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don’t
>>forget the pea sized silica gel.
>Pressac states in the text accompanying Photo 20, p. 21
>”500 grams can of Zyklon-B without its label, containing small
>bluish pellets of porous silica, known as ERCO, which absorbed
>the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic and
>sternutatory warning agent. These are the *crystals* of Zyklon-B.
>Other fixing agents were also used, either a reddish-brown granular
>mass (Diagriess), or disks of ligneous fiber. (Photo 8 which
>Eichmann knew, probably because he had seen them used in the
>disinfestations of the Auschwitz main camp blocks before or at
>the time of his deciding with Hoess on their homicidal use.”
>Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
Too bad your pharmacist never read the Degesh publication. Too bad this
supposed pharmacist never took enough chemistry courses to learn
something covered in high school chemistry. It appears he is at best an
old time apothecary dealing in healing herbs rather than what we would
call a pharmacist in the US.
Think of if. A pharmacist who never took a chemistry course. It almost
makes one question his claim to being a pharmacist.
In fact, no almost about it. If it is a pharmacist he would not have
made that mistake.
>As for size, Mr. Mazal has helped us out a bit:
>
>Silica gel can be purchased in a huge variety of mesh sizes. In
>my (now quite remote) days designing gas chromatographs, we
>used silica gel in a 100 mesh size as a column packing for the
>separation of organic and inorganic gases. 100 mesh is a very
>fine powder.
>
>Silica gel is also used as a dessicant and is commercially available
>in mesh sizes from 4 mesh to 28 mesh. What do “mesh sizes” mean?
>The U.S. Bureau of Standards defines the following:
>Size 4 = 4.75mm
>Size 6 = 3.35mm
>Size 8 = 2.36mm
>Size 10 = 2.00mm
>Size 12 = 1.70mm
>etc.
It is unclear what any US standard has to do with the subject but it
would appear by this scale the size would be about 000000 to get up to
pea sized.
>One can also purchase bulk silica gel in lumps the size of an orange.
>Giwer can determine this for himself. If he is the “great scientist”
>that he claims to be, he will have access to one of the standard
>laboratory supply catalogues. I have, for this particular exercise,
>used the: _
>THOMAS SCIENTIFIC: Scientific Apparatus and Reagents_
>(609) 467-2000
>The references to silica gel are on pages 561, 1881 and 1882.
But we also know that the coloration comes from the addition of cobalt
chloride to indicate it is dry. As it was being soaked in HCN it would
never be water wet and there would be no reason to add the dessication
indicator and therefore it would not appear blue. But you know that.
>A curious addition to the silica gel story is that it is also available
>as an “indicating type, changing color from deep blue to pink as
>relative humidity increases from 20% to 60%.
As I said, you know the indicator is added when it is used as a
dessicant.
>
Thank you for posting the expert opinion of a pharmacist who managed to
prove that crematoria were constructed.
However, by now you should have read what I have posted from the long
secret Degesh publication. And when you read it you will know why the
people claiming to have it would not post it. It clearly states that
the carrier is either wood pulp or diatomite. No silica gel at all.
There is other information in it. Most of which points to the reason it
has never be posted, for example the ten hours to air out after it is
used.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:37 PDT 1996
Article: 43158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No answer
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:53:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pln[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:56:29 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> All I have asked for is the number of Jews who were subject to summary
>>execution solely because they were Jewish.
> The question is not clearly phrased. Do you mean how many Jews were
>killed immediately upon capture or arrival at a death camp for no other
>reason than being Jewish? Or how many were potential victims?
The number that were in fact so killed in either manner solely for that
reason. No potentials, actuals.
How much more clear can I make it?
>> No one has been willing to give a number.
> If you were to ask how many people were living in the United States, I
>would not be willing to give a number, either. Even the Census Bureau
>cannot guarantee that it has counted everyone and of course even if it did
>its number would become outdated with the first birth after it is
>tabulated. The best one can do is a range.
Fine, what is the range?
>> Am I the only one who finds it strange there is no such number?
> There are various estimates. You can, I am sure, find them in
>different books. If you are too lazy to go to the library, I am sure you
>can find some numbers on Nizkor. But I will invoke a Giwer Rule: do your
>own homework. I do not play games that apply to only one person. Sorry
>about that.
That is not the point. Any number I come up with someone will disagree
with. You folks will NOT agree upon a number among yourselves. So I
want your number or range of numbers.
>>From the partial answers I have over 3 million and not all the “death
>>camps” have reported in.
> Well, just for openers the Einsatzgruppen sent love letters to the
>folks back home claiming to have done for a million or so. At their
>trials, the leaders did allow as to how they inflated them a la Vietnam
>body counts. To what extent this is true is something we’ll probably
>never know. They probably didn’t know the exact number themselves.
So if your position is that no one can ever know then any number is good
enough including zero. There has to be a better number than zero.
> Now, how many were killed solely because of being Jews, and how many
>killed because they were not only Jews but dirty rotten Bolsheviks as
>well? I can’t help you with that one. I don’t think anyone can.
That is one of the points I am making. And another point is that you
folks don’t know either.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:38 PDT 1996
Article: 43159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No answer
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 03:54:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:57:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
> All I have asked for…
>Who cares? Mr. Giwer is always “asking!” But the one thing he has
>never, ever done is “answered!”
>When Mr. Giwer finally gets around to answering a question put to
>him, then he will get the answers to his quesitons.
If you don’t know why not just say so?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:39 PDT 1996
Article: 43162 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap, soap and more soap
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:07:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq6[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 12:10:24 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>4/30/81:
>> The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
>>Rachel Patron, who
>> claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
>>Soviets during WWII (and
>> you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
>>Patron goes on to
>> state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
>>she found a shed full of
>> soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
>>survivors can remember
>> seeing things that never existed?
>Giwer, if they ever give out awards for being the biggest fucking pin
>head in the Universe, you’ll win hands down!!
>Being a total fool may be the only thing you are good at.
You do not like having your holohugger beliefs punctured? She LIED.
She was a “survivor” and she LIED.
Does that not bother you?
Or do you believe there really was RIH?
Which kind of fool are you? One who will not believe your survivors
lie? Or one who believes their lies? It is your choice.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:40 PDT 1996
Article: 43163 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No fuel needed
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:24:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 11:27:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>
>>”MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
>>check at each
>>one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
>>… When the last one was in,
>>the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
>>had set in, the
>>ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
>>doors were opened, and the
>>Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure…
>>they were burned in the
>>open air without the use of fuel. ”
>>IMT XX – p. 494.
>>
>> More Nazi physics at work.
>>
>> I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
>>
>> On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they
>>could do this?
> I note that Mr. Giwer has not presented the defense cross-examination
>of this witness. Why has he not done that?
There was no defense necessary against such an absurd and stupid
assertion. Anyone with half a brain can see that, even a holohugger can
see that. Or is it that you are continuing to agree that this is what
holohuggers do is a problem?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43165 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:16:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 9:19:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>” MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
>>in my hands, of an
>>experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
>>you [Albert Speer] if you
>>heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
>>find a quick and complete
>>way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
>>gassing and burning, as it
>>had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
>>village, a small village was
>>provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
>>approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
>>means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
>>were eradicated
>>almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace.”
>>IMT XVI – p.529.
> Mr. Giwer’s quotation of this passage lacks honesty and integrity. It
>is out of context, and quite deceptively so.
It is good to see you agree with me about Nizkor.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43166 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap, soap and more soap
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:55:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 5:58:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
4/30/81:
The editorial page of the Los Angeles Times contains a piece by
Rachel Patron, who
claims that as a Polish Jew she was shipped off to Siberia by the
Soviets during WWII (and
you thought all Polish Jews were captured and gassed by Nazis). Ms.
Patron goes on to
state that on later passing through Ukraine on her return to Poland
she found a shed full of
soap made from Jews. Isn’t it interesting how these Holocaust
survivors can remember
seeing things that never existed?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 07:17:42 PDT 1996
Article: 43170 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lack of that pesky evidence thing again
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:19:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:22:10 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
1/28/87
SS Gruppenfuehrer Gerhard Klopfer, who served as state secretary in
the Party
Chancellery under Martin Bormann and was the last surviving member
of the Wannsee
Conference (at which it was alleged that details were worked out
for the “final solution”)
dies in Heilbronn, West Germany. Klopfer was charged with war
crimes at Nuernberg, but
the case was dropped for lack of evidence, and in fact Klopfer was
permitted to resume
practicing law in 1956. This lends credence to the proposition that
the Wannsee
Conference had nothing to with with an extermination program.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43174 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Appears to be a hard problem here
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:27:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 8:30:02 PM CDT 1996
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I have just replied to a very contorted attempt to explain one part of
second first gassing story.
So lets start off with an easier part.
Would anyone like to explain why expert exterminators were used instead
of normal camp personnel?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s misrepresent to make a story
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:00:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4pak7h$42[email protected]> <4pb1t3$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:03:10 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:
>>
>>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>>The Wannsee document says nothing about mass gassings, and the only one
>who
>>>tries to make such a connection, so he can then strike down the strawman
>he
>>>has just erected, is the Giwer-troll. Nor does the SWC make that
>>>connection. Only the Giwer-troll, who never stops adding dishonesty to
>>>vulgarity, stupidity and simple trolling.
>> From the SWC Q&A
>>6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they located?
>> Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with
>>special apparatus
>> specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps existed:
>>Auschwitz-Birkenau,
>> Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. All were
>>located in Poland.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
I was the first in this NG to point out that it had nothing to do with
mass gassings, McFly. Is there anyone in there yet, McFly? In case you
have forgotten, 813-972-2574. I will be looking forward to your nose
clearing sounds on my answering service.
>>7. What does the term “Final Solution” mean and what is its
>>origin?
>> Answer: The term “Final Solution” (Endl”sung) refers to
>>Germany’s plan to murder all the
>> Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference (Berlin;
>>January 20,1942)
>> where German officials discussed its implementation.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
As above, it was the holohuggers who made that claim. But then, no one
said they were very bright. Barely a dull genius at best.
>>8. When did the “Final Solution” actually begin?
>> Answer: While thousands of Jews were murdered by the Nazis or died as
>>a direct result of
>> discriminatory measures instituted against Jews during the initial
>>years of the Third Reich,
>> the systematic murder of Jews did not begin until the German invasion
>>of the Soviet Union
>> in June 1941.
>Which has what to do with the Giwer-troll’s lie that the Wannsee document
>says something about gassings?
As above, fantasizing idiot.
>> Only a liar for the holocaust can miss the connection between gassings,
>>murder and the Wannsee Conference.
>The only liar here is th eGiwer-troll and it is obvious he is desparate,
>since he is lying so blatently and so obviously.
As you know you holohuggers, when I asked for evidence of gassing, I was
first given the protocol in German to much giggling by the schoolgirls
here. And as you know, when I found it in English I was the one who
pointed out it said no such thing.
Knowing all of this you still post your lies.
Why?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43189 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Everyone in Theresienstadt was exterminated
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:46:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 6:48:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Who was it who told me that story?
By all accounts, Rabbi Dr. Leo Baeck must have had a very comfortable
existence under the
National Socialist Government in Germany. Born in 1873 in Posen, he
became a Rabbi in 1897
in Oppeln/Silesia. Interestingly, he was a Rabbi in Berlin from 1912
until 1943, when he himself
was interned at the Theresienstadt camp, a camp where most of the
prominent Jews and
resistance activists were housed. After the war Leo Baeck immigrated to
England.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:15 PDT 1996
Article: 43192 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooooo, those nasty SS
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:27:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:30:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Having those nasty nightmares again, huh? I suggested long ago that
>you upgrade your wine. I did and notice the differnce? Amazing!
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> ” The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>> entrances to the four-story
>The SS did a whole mess of rotten stuff. They were rotten people, had
>to be to get into the SS. Some died very slowly at Dachau.
And you, like the dumb shit asshole you are, believe it.
You forgot to quote the garbage part.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43193 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:30:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq5[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:33:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all
>>know he lies a lot.
> We all know Mr. Giwer lies a lot.
>>4/19/82:
>> WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>>Buchenwald for the Duluth
>> News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
>>gas chambers, which
>> were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
>>Germany, and as we
>> all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
>>Wiesenthal, Books
>> and Bookmen, April, 1975).
> Mr. Giwer is trading on the unstated idea that anyplace with a gas
>chamber is, automatically, an “extermination camp.” That is false. Thus
>there is no logical connection between what Wiesenthal said and the state
>of affairs at Buchenwald – whatever evidence there is or isn’t for a gas
>chamber there, Wiesenthsl’s statement is irrelevant to that discussion.
>Mr. Giwer is merely trolling once atain.
Then complain to Wiesenthal not me.
He is the one lying in this case.
And if he lies in one case why would you believe him in any other?
And as you know his is great at subborning perjury.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43194 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:50:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:53:33 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
“Richard J. Green”
>Mr. Giwer,
>I have requested in the past that you not send me private e-mail. I have
>warned you that I would post any such e-mail publicly. I am doing that
>now. I do not wish to receive private e-mail from Nazi-apologists.
Nor have I sent you any. What in the fuck is your problem?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43195 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:59:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 3:02:43 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Matt Giwer) said:
>>
>[Giwer-Troll BS snipped]
>> >For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England’s greatest
>> >weapons against Germany was a naval blockade. And in that war Germany’s
>> >greatest weapon against the naval blockade was the submarine. At the time
>> >England selectively declared war on Germany, Germany had exactly 27
>> >submarines.
>As of September 1939 Germany had 98 U-boats in service. All were superior
>to anything the Allies had at the time. (_The Harper Encylopedia of
>Military History_, Fourth Edition, p.1152.)
>> Really Professor Giwer-troll? Is that *all* the navy that Germany had?
>Nope. But the German Navy, particularly the surface fleet, was no match
>for the Royal Navy. (Not to mention the U.S. Navy.) The only _effective_
>naval weapon the Germans had- one the Royal Navy almost didn’t defeat -was
>the U-boat. Fortunately, the the Royal Navy hadn’t quite forgotten how
>they defeated the U-boat in WWI: The convoy system, and quickly
>re-established it. (To the the RN’s frustration the U.S. Navy, at Adm.
>King’s insistance and the Allies detriment, declined to also switch to the
>convoy system until well into the Battle for the Atlantic. Many hundreds
>of thousands of tons of shipping were lost because of this. It would have
>been much worse, possibly at the cost of losing the Battle for the
>Atlantic- and knocking Britain out of the war, if the German Navy hadn’t
>suffered problems with their torpedos very much like the problems the U.S.
>Navy also suffered with in its (successful) anti-shipping campaign against
>Japan.
>> >Despite what you might hear in the WW II documentaries, they were
>> >being sunk as fast as they were being built. There were never more than
>> >29 operational submarines at any one time. The damage you see is due to
>> >the anti-submarine warfare technology and tactics of the day being such
>> >that a torpedo hit was the first indication of a German submarine in the
>> >area. The sonars were only good enough help find them after heading in
>> >the direction of the best guess as to where the submarine was.
>>
>> Utter horseshit, Professor sir. The earnest sinking of German submarines
>> didn’t start until 1942-1943.
>Indeed Giwer-Troll’s claim of “There were never more than 29 operational
>submarines at any one time” is utter horseshit.” Would Giwer-Troll care to
>cite the source for that little road apple?
Your assertion from ignoance of a Harper’s Encyclopedia reference fails
to note the difference between blue water and green water submarines.
No on in their right mind would count green water subs in WW II.
But then I will admit that you truly do think you know what you are
talking about.
>As for a torpedo hit being the first indication that a U-boat was in the
>area? Not quite. There was Ultra and DF. HQ often knew about how many
>U-boats would be attacking a convoy. The escort commander generally knew
>when to expect U-boats in his area. In fact, because of this, convoys were
>generally routed _around_ the wolfpacks.
You are an idiot.
First it was named HFDF or HuffDuff. All of the “routing around” was
based upon aircraft sightings as in those days subs spent most of their
time on the surface.
>Then, of course, there was airborne anti-subnarine aircraft with radar.
>Both land and carrier-based. They were quite effective, especially later
>in the war when their numbers increased, in spotting and attacking U-boats
>well outside the convoy’s escort screen.
The subject is the beginning of the war when radar was something no one
really trusted.
>[Giwer-Troll BS snipped]
Because you are technoligically incapable of dealing with it.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 12:51:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritsch was a fraud
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:22:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 5:25:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Giwer, the man with the (alleged) IQ of 163, fails – yet
>again – to understand a very simple thing.
>When someone is exposed to an *already existing* high concentration
>of HCN (or some other strong poison), he will indeed die rather
>quickly.
As a product (multiply) concentration and time.
>However, if a carrier for the gas (Zyklon, in this case),
From the Degesh publication, wood pulp.
>is thrown into a large place filled with people, the ones which are
>further away from it will take longer to die, as it will take the
>necessary concentration of the gas some time to reach them; actually,
>Hoes testifies about this very phenomena, saying that in the Krema
>II and III gas chambers, those standing by the introduction devices
>collapsed immediately, while those further away took longer to die.
Hoess testififes to 3.5 million. Hoess testifies to Wolzec. Hoess
testifies to anything his Soviet interogators want his to say.
>This is also what happened in the first gassing (in Block 11),
I have TWO very different Nizkor approved stories of about the first
gassing and both approved by Nizkor. I have no idea how to tell one
truth from the other truth.
I can no tell Breitwieser from Fritsch for openers. How do you tell the
difference?
Do you disagree with professional fumigators being called in?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:26 PDT 1996
Article: 43222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:19:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:21:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:38:35 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>Now, given that the Zyklon B columns were secured in both the vertical and
>>>horizontal, on what basis does Giwer assert that all the victims had to do
>>>”was raise them and push them back out?” Why none of course! But then
>>>Giwer rarely lets minor details- like the fact that the Zyklon B columns
>>>were quite secure -stand in the way of spouting drivel!
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail..jpg
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns..jpg
>> Neither of these appear to match your description.
>Sigh. Mr. Giwer apparently cannot even cite an URL accurately. The
>URLs that actually work are:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail.jpg
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns.jpg
>I note that the little that the pictures show of the insertion columns
>does match Mr. Van Alstine’s description of the concrete sleeves on
>the roof of L.Keller 1 of, judging by the direction of the shadows,
>Krema 2.
I note this and the minimum 10 foot square aerial photos are all you
folks have on your side. Get over it. You are making it up as you go
along.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Moran’s dreams vanish
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:55:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31b6d9e3.14909[email protected]> <4p70t7$ag[email protected]> <4p9ge3$n6[email protected]> <31b985a9.44973[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43223 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:53
@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[snipsnap]
>>>drwxr-xr-x 2 kmcvay ftp 96 Feb 1 08:33 1995
>>>drwxr-xr-x 2 kmcvay ftp 1024 Jun 6 19:42 1996
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 20500 Jan 20 06:04 is-menorah-secular
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 21100 Mar 8 17:40 menora-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 21821 Mar 16 20:48 moran-challenges-self.01
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 2083 Mar 16 20:48 moran-challenges-self.02
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 1167 Jun 6 19:42 moran-disbelieves-morrison
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 20893 Apr 17 07:24 moran-menorah-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 13559 Jan 26 19:31 moran-on-schindler
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 13869 Apr 16 18:41 moran-schindler-faq
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 123224 Jun 6 19:03 moran.0696
>>”June 6″. Thats yesterday. You’ve had to do some work I see.
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 9371 Apr 15 07:16 morans-lies
>>>-rw-r–r– 1 kmcvay ftp 1850 Dec 6 1995 night-b4-christmas
>[etc.]
>>
>> Well anyway I checked out your new update and I see you have
>>selected some things and not others. In fact for the most part the
>>selections are only Moran’s headers followed by a comment from
>>another.
>> I should also point out that, of the few you did include intact,
>>they have no responses.
>Please read as:
>*whine* Now that I am a convicted idiot, they at least have to admit that they
>neglected to archive at least 50% of alt.revisionism under my humble name…
>Nele
>P.S. Matt “Eliza” Giwer at work:
>>> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
>>> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
>>> implying that we is observant?”
>I still stick to my thesis of M.G. being a clever AI-programme
And I will stick to the known fact that you are a sexless imbecile
without the balls to deal with the world under your own name.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:29 PDT 1996
Article: 43224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:26:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 3:29:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> The Nizkor approved file talks only about France reporting people
>> being sent work camps with no mention of children or religion.
>> Why do you think that is?
>Why? Because I think Giwer is too stupid to comprehend the written word
>correctly. And too lazy to educate himself.
>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
>sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
>apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Yes, yes, of course, of course and you are a talking horse of course.
It it good to see you calling the gang at Nizkor liars. That is all
that you are doing and it is about time.
Well done, Mr. Ed. You have named them as they are.
There is no mention of children or race [sic] or religion whatsoever and
yet you call Nizkor a liar for not mentioning it.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:30 PDT 1996
Article: 43226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:07:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 12:10:44 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>
>>> > They showed part of the routine on CNN. It was bizarre. Any accurate
>>> >description would be considered a parody.
>>>
>>> Darn, sorry I missed it. Was it insulting as the French claimed, IYO?
>> I wouldn’t have called it insulting (but I thought the inquisition scene in
>>”History of the World –Part I” — which the water ballet thing resembled — was hilarious).
>> There were a bevy of female swimmers in black one peice bathing suits
>>goose-stepping in unison into the pool then some frantic manouvers with limbs
>>protruding from the water also done in unison. It was rather like watching an accident
>>in progress or reading L’il Tommy’s cold blooded murder of the English language. It
>>could have meant anything or nothing at all. The real question I had was not whether
>>the routine was in bad taste but whether the entire “sport” was.
>I’ve never been a big fan of the syncronized swimming in the Olympics
>other then being amazed at the breath control. It appears that
>something wasmade of something pretty stupid. 🙂
I would rather suggest there are two point of interest.
1) It was unacceptable for the Olympics.
2) It ws OK for a movie.
The only thing that was “unacceptable” from the original movie was the
preview trailer for Part II where the Jews in Space were chasing Muslim
ships with
Torah
Torah
Torah
on the screen.
Some jokes even Mel Brooks is not permitted to make.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43230 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:30:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4nlrc2$agn@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 8:33:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>20 degrees C is hot. 20 degrees F is cold. Big difference.
>>>Unfortunately for Mr. Raven, he is wrong on both counts. It was clear
>>>that Mr. Giwer meant 20 C because he tried to argue that the boiling
>>>point of HCN (25.7 C) somehow prevented it form evaporating at 20 C.
>>>Additionally, even if Mr. Giwer meant 20 F, he is still wrong. The
>>>vapor pressure of HCN at 20 F is just less than 200 Torr, or about
>>>260,000 ppm. HCN is toxic at 300 ppm, but Mr. Raven knew that.
>> If you knew what you were talking about you would know that
>>toxicity is a product of quantity and time.
>Yes. Ten minutes for 300 ppm is the more often quoted as lethal,
>generally as LD99. Sometime 450 ppm in 10 mn. What has it to do with
>such a rate like 260000ppm ? What could be the time with this rate ?
What do steady state conditions have to do with the subject? How long
would it take to achieve steady state? No one would live long enough to
see that even if there were enough used to ever achieve it.
You see it is not a rate in any sense. It is a matter of the total
amount inhaled to cause death. The minutes could more accurately stated
in terms of inhalations. And the rising concentration would mean that
near zero in the first breath and increasing with each breath until a
lethal amount has been inhaled.
With the method of usage described one does not get 300 ppm immediately,
so right up front we have the time to death different from the ten
minutes. The questing then becomes the rate of increase of the ppm.
It would be desirable if someone could come up with the “sensitized
paper” or the gas detector reported to have been used as at least one
place to start. It would also be desirable for some one to come up with
what size can was used and how many cans were used. I would not expect
much from that but it is clear that everyone is shooting in the dark
>from the unreliable and conflicting supposed eyewitnesses.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 15:01:32 PDT 1996
Article: 43232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No wonder we can’t find the bodies
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:39:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 4:42:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
” MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
in my hands, of an
experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
you [Albert Speer] if you
heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
find a quick and complete
way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
gassing and burning, as it
had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
village, a small village was
provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
were eradicated
almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace.”
IMT XVI – p.529.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 16:29:55 PDT 1996
Article: 43236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN slanders Germans
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:25:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4or264$1ar6@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4phi75[email protected]> <4phq2m$[email protected]> <4pqog[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-17.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:77094 alt.revisionism:43236 soc.culture.jewish:56795
Mike Pelletier
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Gord McFee
>>In article <[email protected]>, Mike Pelletier
>>
>>>Both letters to the newspaper seem to ascribe victim status to Hammer,
>>>lamenting the fact that if he’d disobeyed orders, he would have been shot
>>>by his commanding officers, and that he’s not to blame, the government of
>>>Nazi Germany is to blame.
>>
>>Rubbish. There are lots of examples of SS who refused to obey orders in
>>this regard, or refused to serve in a death camp, and I am unaware of any
>>who were shot for it. Most were simply sent home.
>This “if they disobeyed orders they’d have been shot” apology is very
>commonly used, it’s interesting to know that it’s bunk. Could you post
>some references?
>>Right on the second point. Wrong on the first. The Kristallnacht was
>>ordered by the Government (Hitler, Goebbels and Heydrich) and was carried
>>out by the SS and the SA.
>Thanks for setting me straight on that point. I was long under the
>impression that it was a popular, mob-mentality kind of attack on
>Jewish businesses legitimized in the minds of the mob by the
>Nazi-sponsored boycotts and hate mongering.
But it is another of the claims for which there has never been the
slightest evidence ever produced for it being a government operation.
You might ask for references on this one also.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:09:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:37:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 2:40:31 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>> Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
>>close this time?
>>
>>” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
>>boiler-room. The steam generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes
>>to the chambers. There are terracota floors in the chambers which become
>>very slippery when wet … All victims had to strip off their clothes and
>>shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
>>children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too
>>weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking
>>…Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and stumbled
>>over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After being filled up
>>to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in.
>>In a few minutes all was over. ”
>>IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.
>Since you believe quite rightly in the importance of context, perhaps
>you would be so kind as to provide some here. I have the named volume
>open to pp. 156-157, but I am sure that our readers would be very
>interested to know in your own words the source of this description
>and the context in which it appears.
>Certainly you would not wish to leave the impression that you did
>something so unoriginal as to copy this from a denier web page and
>believe it to be a true truth simply because it appeared on a denier
>web page.
>Is the quote from the red, green, or blue series?
>Is the quote evidence given in testimony, or is it a document?
>Does it form part of an indictment?
>To which defendant does the quote pertain?
>How much text has been replaced by the ellipsis?
>What does the replaced text say?
>Who said/wrote it?
>Did this person claim to have been an eyewitness?
>I know the answers to these questions. Do you?
I do not care. It is quite up to the holohugger standards for this
conference. When the holohuggers start posting to the standards you are
implying should be used, then there is a cause to call me to that same
standard.
Until then, Keren’s mythical Polish spies do not explain the lies about
steaming people to death. Of course, if Keren is willing to post to
your standards that will be a different matter. So far he has simply
invented his Polish spies.
BTW: IF in fact you do know the answers you would be doing the subject
a great service were you to post the answers. Why do you not? Would
you rather play games?
How about a wild guess. You will claim my failure to provide the
answers will mean the passage does not exist. You will harp upon this
until the passage is forgotten.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:09:09 PDT 1996
Article: 43241 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in Germany
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:43:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4pq5vm[email protected]> <4pqqd9[email protected]> <4prb[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14 4:45:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>4/19/82:
>>>> WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>>>>Buchenwald for the Duluth
>>>> News Tribune by recalling “long lines of prisoners being led to the
>>>>gas chambers, which
>>>> were usually disguised as showers.” Unfortunately, Buchenwald is in
>>>>Germany, and as we
>>>> all know, “there were no extermination camps on German soil” (Simon
>>>>Wiesenthal, Books
>>>> and Bookmen, April, 1975).
>>
>>> Mr. Giwer is trading on the unstated idea that anyplace with a gas
>>>chamber is, automatically, an “extermination camp.” That is false. Thus
>>>there is no logical connection between what Wiesenthal said and the state
>>>of affairs at Buchenwald – whatever evidence there is or isn’t for a gas
>>>chamber there, Wiesenthsl’s statement is irrelevant to that discussion.
>>>Mr. Giwer is merely trolling once atain.
>>
>> Then complain to Wiesenthal not me.
>>
>> He is the one lying in this case.
> He is lying in this case? Really? OK, if your true truth is now that
>there _were_ exermination camps on German soil, that is fine with me.
As you know I made the statement that there were none in Germany. Then
the holohuggers jumped in and insisted there were.
So who is right? The holohuggers here or Wiesenthal.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 18:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43257 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Not close inded! Keren bullshits again
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Hey, Keren! Where is your story about the Polish “spies” not getting
close this time?
” The second building [at Treblinka] consists of three chambers and a
boiler-room. The steam
generated in the boilers is led by means of pipes to the chambers. There
are terracota floors in
the chambers which become very slippery when wet … All victims had to
strip off their clothes and
shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and
children first, were
driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move
quickly were driven on by
rifle butts, by whipping and kicking…Many slipped and fell, the next
victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the
chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes
all was over. ”
IMT XXXII – pp. 156-157.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 19:19:57 PDT 1996
Article: 108879 of alt.politics.correct
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.peeves,alt.bigfoot,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.israel,alt.music.white-power,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.college.college-bowl,rec.pets.cats,alt.stupidity,alt.whine,alt.netcom.sucks
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Followup-To: alt.smokers,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.skinheads,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.flame,alt.peeves,alt.bigfoot,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.israel,alt.music.white-power,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.college.college-bowl,rec.pets.cats,alt.stupidity,alt.whine,alt.netcom.sucks
Date: 14 Jun 1996 09:36:08 -0700
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Johan Carlson
>All this about the communists and Jews in the Netherlands are nothing
>but complete nonsense. There is not an ounce of truth in Mr. Apollos
>argument. Perhaps it’s just a stupid a joke; but more likely i beleive
>he’s another anti-semite shithead just like Mr. Giwer. Although Mr.
>Giwer is a lot more refined in his use of the English language.
Be careful. That observation is a violation of holohugger dogma.
>As you might notice english is not my native language and therefore Mr.
>Giwers ‘word games’ can seem a little strange to me. That’s not to say
>that I’m stupid (as Mr. Giwer once implied).
That is SOP in this newsgroup. But I have never critiqued your use of
english as have the holohuggers.
This b.s. about Dutch being
>a communist state involved in some great conspiracy with the Jews is not
>a Giwer invention though (correct me if I’m wrong ;).
>Mr. Johnson did well in arguing against Apollos article. But why bother;
>It is simply not true!
Save there was no such argument.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 21:13:18 PDT 1996
Article: 43265 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:54:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>> I looked three times and while I could find the cancer reference, I
>>>could not find Mark Van Alstine saying he _believed_ people could be
>>>infected with cancer. You wrote he _believes_ it. You were asked to
>>>support _that_ claim. You can repost it ten times and the article still
>>>will not contain Mark Van Alstine saying he believes that people can be
>>>infected with cancer. Sorry about that.
>>
>> I was working by analogy. ALL holohuggers believe ALL testimony
>>regardless of how ridiculous it is.
> I have never met a holohugger, so I would not know. Where do you find
>them? Can you name any of these holohuggers that believe all testimony?
>Can you cite evidence that they believe all testimony?
Of course you folks deny it. But what else explains the silence? For
example, after so many exchanges over weeks with Keren, Green finally
chimes in with the idea of confusing steam with oil vapor being absurd
as I said all along. Where was he?
>>I also pointed out that Nizkor
>>believes it else they would not be carrying it.
> If you believe that logic then you must believe that Nizkor believes
>every word you post. They do carry it, you know – or at least everything
>that makes it through the newsfeed.
So you are saying they carry information they know to be false. I agree
but it is surprising to see you agreeing with it.
>>It is also clear the
>>French government believed it. It is also clear that the information
>>came from the Soviets who believed it.
> I had the impression that your true truth was that the Soviets made up
>all the nonsense claims. If they made it up surely they would know not to
>believe it.
As you know only the Soviets produced testimony and evidence regarding
what happened in the territories they liberated. That is the only
source for the French claim.
>> Why would Van Alstine stand out in not believing it?
> I have seen no evidence that anyone here believed it. Have you? Can
>you produce it?
Upon what ground could there be selective disbelief? Are you claiming
that one impossibility can be rejected but that other impossibilities
must be accepted? Upon what grounds can you make that claim?
For example, how can you accept impossible cremation times on one hand
and then reject an impossible infection on the other?
What criteria could you possibly have for selecting the impossibilities
you want to believe?
>>Why would any holohugger disbelieve any statement the purpose of which
>>was to support the death penalty? After all, no one would lie about
>>such things, would they?
>>
>>> However, I certainly believe that Nazi doctors can inject people with
>>>cancer cells to see if they _could_ become infected with cancer. Not
>>>quite what the witness said, of course, but within the boundaries of
>>>normal interpretational drift. You see, I am a silly person who thinks
>>>one should read what a witness says with the purpose of trying to find the
>>>most plausible understanding of what really happened, not trying to find
>>>ways to troll.
>>
>>Of course it is not what was said. The word is “infectED” as you read.
> That is true. But then, the word was not “air-tight” in reference to
>the door at Auschwitz, either. Sorry for bringing that up.
Any kind of “tight” is absurd with 3-4 huge holes in the roof.
>>As to your “interpretational” approach, this is not a casual comment or
>>off-hand remark. This is an indictment on a capital offense. Wording
>>is important in such matters.
> Yes, but we are long past that. There is a difference between history
>and legal cases. I am interested in the historical record. Historians
>can properly use evidence that courts would exclude.
Then we can expect no truth from historians.
> In any event we would also have to go back and look at the original
>language of the statement.
I posted it. It is as I said.
>>Would you like to deal with them deliberately risking an outbreak of
>>malaria next?
> If you present a convincing case that this would be a necessary
>corollary of anything that was alleged, and that the risk was substantial,
>I might. Some people might doubt that anyone would deliberately risk
>making the city of Harrisburg, PA uninhabitable for generations. I’ll bet
>you deliberately risk dying in a traffic accident at least once a week.
>And this is evidence of…?
Evidence that all of the claims of medical experiments were fabricated
of course.
>>Would you like to go over everything else you believe is true simply
>>because it was invented for war crimes trials?
> Sure:
> That didn’t take long.
You forgot gassing.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 21:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 43275 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One man’s opinion
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:06:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>”The Nuremberg Trials … had been popular throughout the world and
>>>>particularly in the United
>>>>States. Equally popular was the sentence already announced by the high
>>>>tribunal: death. But what
>>>>kind of trial was this? …The Constitution was not a collection of
>>>>loosely given political promises
>>>>subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of pleasing
>>>>platitudes to be set lightly aside when
>>>>expediency required it. It was the foundation of the American system of
>>>>law and justice and
>>>>[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>>>>those Constitutional precepts in
>>>>order to punish a vanquished enemy.”
>>>>– U.S. President, John F. Kennedy
>>>>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>>>>p.189-190.
>>
>>> You know, if I didn’t know that Mr. Giwer knows that appeal to
>>>authority is a fallacy, I’d say this looked an awful lot like an appeal to
>>>authority.
>>
>> But as you know it is corroboration of the statement I made.
> You offer this as corroboration? Had I offered it you would be the
>first to point out that it is not evidence.
>>You also
>>know that even our distinguished attorney from Pennsylvania insisted I
>>was wrong.
>>
>> Don’t forget the Justice Douglas also agreeing with me.
> You know, this too looks like an appeal to authority.
> I also don’t forget that the Justice Douglas mentioned “crime” in the
>singular yet there were four charges brought at Nuremberg. Did he really
>have such a poor understanding of the proceedings?
There was no justice at Nuremberg according to US and Canadian and
British standards of Justice. No one may be punished for anything he
did prior to a law that makes the action criminal. But you know that.
You also know the IMT was not a military tribunal.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 14 22:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43280 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:28:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>> I was working by analogy. ALL holohuggers believe ALL testimony
>>>>regardless of how ridiculous it is.
>>
>>> I have never met a holohugger, so I would not know. Where do you find
>>>them? Can you name any of these holohuggers that believe all testimony?
>>>Can you cite evidence that they believe all testimony?
>>
>> Of course you folks deny it. But what else explains the silence? For
>>example, after so many exchanges over weeks with Keren, Green finally
>>chimes in with the idea of confusing steam with oil vapor being absurd
>>as I said all along. Where was he?
> No evidence cited that they believe all testimony. Let’s move on.
That is the only place gassing comes from. And they believe it.
>>>>I also pointed out that Nizkor
>>>>believes it else they would not be carrying it.
>>
>>> If you believe that logic then you must believe that Nizkor believes
>>>every word you post. They do carry it, you know – or at least everything
>>>that makes it through the newsfeed.
>>
>>So you are saying they carry information they know to be false. I agree
>>but it is surprising to see you agreeing with it.
> Nizkor knows Mr. Giwer’s posts are false. Mr. Giwer agrees. Who
>tortured him into this confession?
Then you hold this story is trure?
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another lovely story
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:38:45 GMT
Now from the beginning the Auschwitz FAQ at Nizkor has fed
the falsely false story (or truely true, depending on your point
of view) of an enterprising young officer officer name Fritsch
having invented the use of Zyklon B. Here we have another truly
true story of the same first use.
It has to be true. It has the imprimatur of Nizkor upon it.
That is where I got it. I will give revisionist parties the
URL so that it is not easy for Nizkor to go in and purge the site
of this alternate reality true truth.
=====
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be
screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved
impractical, and many were not ‘selected’ before they arrived in
the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration
camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners
were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers
and ‘commissars’ were initially executed one at a time with a
shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall,
adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious
procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In
October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann
Breitwieser
=====
Where does this Breitwieser get off stealing the credit from
Fritsch?
=====
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the
camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff
of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant.
=====
Instantly “knocked out.” One has to wonder just what it was
that this person “whiffed”. It is also of note that here it is
used as a disinfectant rather than a fumigant.
=====
To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the
half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had
several cans of the blue pellets,
=====
Note the blue kitty litter. How strange.
=====
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one
thousand Russians awaiting execution.
=====
Even more than the impossible number the Nizkor story stuffs
into the room.
=====
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies
were met by a fearsome sight. Men with contorted faces had
locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each
other’s hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and
their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes
disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them
up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)
=====
Anyone willing to nominate this story for the Gruesome of the
Holocaust Award? Here we have positive eyewitness impossible to
be wrong testimony that HCN causes flesh and clothing to fuse
into gelatinous blobs.
Which of you chemists out there is going to swear this is
what really happens? Both of you? Why am I not surprised?
But this is truely true. Note that the idea for using it
comes from seeing a person “knocked out” from one whiff. Then we
note that part of the pathology of cyanide poisoning is to
recover consciousness before dying and go through the ha