Giwer Matt, 2-1996 – p1

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40523 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:54:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># It was noted you have no short hairs as the conviction was upon
># claiming to be close enough to determine the composition of
># doormats.

>Numerous amounts of human hair *were* taken from the victims and
>shipped to Germany. One document mentions 3 tons of hair. What
>do you suppose was done with it? All the hair that was found
>in Auschwitz – tons of it – which the SS didn’t have time
>to take. What do you think was done with the hair?

We are talking about Treblinka here. NOTHING but trees were
found there. But we do have a fraudlent statement of both
steaming and human hair doormats.

>I recall that Yad-Vashem in Jerusalem has a mat, or small rug,
>made of human hair. Maybe a hot-shot 163-IQ former engineer
>and Holocaust expert like yourself wants to drop them a note
>and ask them about it?

You recall something on the spur of the moment for this purpose
only.

THe larger point is that anyone close enough to see the dormat
could see it was not steam as you claimed in your other INVENTED
story.

># I presumed he was hung.

>Pohl? Indeed he was. He was a very high-ranking SS officer.
>Mostly, he was guilty of the slave labor program in the camps.

He was found GUILTY of STEAMING people to death and for making
doormats of human hair, as you know. You are not going to change
this no matter how hard you try. You “confusion” invention to
explain steam is bull.

Would you like to move on to electrocution and vacuum chambers?

># And perhaps better explains why you do not
># wish to mail me a copy of what you claim to have.

>There are other reasons. Anyway, it’s irrelevant to the
>discussion.

The clear indication is that it contradicts what you are saying
about.

>I repeat my question: what are *all* the crimes Pohl was
>convicted of? Do you know, or don’t you know?

They are listed above and I have posted the references to the
Nuremberg records which support it. ALL does not matter. As
long as they include steaming and doormats in the same conviction
your fantasy is exposed.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40525 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:44:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran ([email protected]) whines:

> Okay, it’s not a forgery. Giwer says no, Mittleman says no.

> In that case we can point out that if the Jewish population of
> Europe is said to have been 6,900,000 in 1919, then it increased
> by an incredible rate that ended up at 11,000,000 by 1939, just
> twenty years later.

>As usual, Mr. Moran does not know what he is talking about! The
>article in question, if Mr. Moran had bothered to read it before
>shooting off his mouth, refers to the post-war threat of starvation
>to six million Ukrainian Jews.

There is no mention of that in the original article,

They must have starved to death as there is no mention of any
geographic area with that many Jews in the Wannsee Protocol 23
years later which included only 5,000,000 in all of Russia.

>That is why I always point out that Mr. Moran never lets facts or
>evidence interfere with his favorite pastime of Jew-bashing!

But then it is very simple for you to do better. Post the
evidence for your Ukaraine claim as at the moment it appears to
have been a very spur of the moment creation without thought.
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40527 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:17:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>> >It could well be said that Andersonville was a death camp in that many
>> >soldiers neadlessly died there, but Matt Giwer wants to insinuate (on
>> >the basis of a TV-movie)
>>
>> If fact, you lying asshole, I suggested that if the books were
>> too hard for you that you watch Gone with the Wind to see the
>> conditions civilians were living under.

>Facinating concept. Why bother studying for years in Egyptology when
>you can just go see “Cleopatra” and see what it was *really* like?

If books were too hard for me, I might not know any better. But
then it is only people interested in deliberate character
assassination who will consistently misrepresent what is said.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:16 PDT 1996
Article: 40530 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile existed, and therefore???
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:36:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Alec Grynspan <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> I have not said that I have excepted it in the least. I have
>> presented it for what it is worth, one more eyewitness. I think
>> you have read my opinion of eyewitnesses.

>Ummm! Not quite. Your memory is truly worse than a coarse sieve. You
>could not have gotten that material anywhere else and the timing is too
>good for your other trolls.

You really need to do yourself a service and compare what I have
posted here with what was in those messages. They bear zero
relationship. Nothing I have said depends upon anything that was
in either message much less that I used him as a reference or
authority.

>> However, I did volunteer to me a voucher for his Righteious
>> Gentile status which lent greater weight to his messages than
>> otherwise. I have no particular reason to run the actual

>Ummm – if you mean *I* volunteered such a status to you – not correct. I
>have made it clear here that he did not have such a status personally
>and might not have it at all.

I heard the information from no one else. HE never said such a
thing to me. In fact at the time you mentioned it to me, I had
never heard of it. To the best of my knowledge there were no
qualifications upon your statement.

>> messages passed you as at no time did you represent yourself as
>> an expert on the subject. And in fact you were the one who told
>> me the story of the mechanical fat collection system so I had no
>> reason to suspect you were one.

>Hunh?!?! What are you talking about? I don’t rmember anything about
>describing any mechanical fat collection system to you – at least not as
>an actual mechanism that I would know about first-hand!

Truly amazing.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40534 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:28:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># But if it was that Mueller then Eichmann is exonerated and
># was murdered by Israel.

>Can you explain the brilliant reasoning in “since Eichmann
>reported to Head of the Gestapo Mueller, this means
>Eichmann was innocent”?

Certainly. The rank difference to make a direct report makes him
a staff officer, not a line officer. As such he had no
independent authority to order anything.

Not only that, it comes quite close to exonerating the Mueller
you claim it is as he says this Mueller LEARNED from this report
what Eichmann told this Mueller. Certainly that suggests it was
as suprising to this Mueller as it was to Eichmann. Otherwise we
have to posit an Eichmann who knew all about what was going on
yet still told the story as one of discovery.

It all clearly indicates that Eichmann had no idea what to expect
and unless we assume that he told his boss what his boss already
knew his boss did not know it either else there was no reason to
report it. Otherwise it would have been a simple report that
people were following orders, not of what he had seen.

What is missing is the follow up to this report, that is, what
was done about it. As we have a clearly shocked to the core
Eichmann and a Mueller who, by what was posted, he reported what
was happening (with the clear implication of a fact-finding
mission in those few words posted) it was a clearly shocking
discovery.

Further, in line with the first, as he clearly discovered
something he did not expect, he gave no orders to stop it. Had
he line authority, he could have done that. So in another case
we have evidence of a staff officer without command authority.

===

As to specifics of what you posted, it started wtih an answer,
not a question. So we do not have that anwer in context. If
your source omitted the question, there was a reason. But it
does start off with “But I just know the following” indicating he
knew nothing more than what he saw in this one business trip
before that trip.

He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could tell
religion is beyond me) that was four to five times the size of
the presumed courtroom where he was giving testimony yet they all
fit into a single van.

He says he could not bring himself to look closely, even once,
which indicates no mental preparation for what he was seeing.
That is a very, very strange thing for a Lt. Col. NOT to do in
front of the grunts and the civilians he is visiting.

As to my suspicions that it was the wrong Mueller, “I just got
the hell out of there” is not, repeat NOT the response of anyone
with command authority. In fact it is not the response of even a
staff officer who could bluff his way through enlisted and
civilian types on the Lt. Col. insignia alone.

Wbat in the hell was he running away from save a scene that he
was thoroughly unprepared for? One for which he was all of this
time reporting to, that is, working for the Mueller you claim it
was without knowing what to expect? How is that possible?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40535 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Part of an interesting document
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:15:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> The numbers refer document pages from the Nuremberg trials.

>>>>===

>>>>MARTIN BORMANN

>>>> Bormann was accused of “persecution of religion” and many other
>>>>crimes. Bormann’s attorney, Dr. Bergold, pointed out that many
>>>>modern countries (meaning the Soviet Union) are avowedly atheist,
>>>>and that orders forbidding priests from holding high Party
>>>>offices (that is, offices in the Nazi Party) could not be called
>>>>”persecution”.

>>>> In Dr. Bergold’s words: “The party is described as criminal – as
>>>>a conspiracy. Is it a crime to exclude certain people from
>>>>membership in a criminal conspiracy? Is that considered a crime?”
>>>>(V 312 <<353>>).

>>>Who’se work are you stealing now, Mr. Giwer?

>> Does that impact the material?

>Give credit where credit is due. That’s the honest thing to do.

It is advertized by Nizkor. I would have thought everyone would
have seen it by now.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 17:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40536 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:23:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Ehrlich606 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Actually, this is not what I am getting at all. I am granting that Jews
>>>>were in many cases killed just because they were Jews. I many be wrong on
>>>>this, but I don’t think that can be said about any other group in WW2.

>>> Huh? Gypsies were killed just because they were Gypsies, and due to
>>>the same racial ideology.

>> The lack of an equalivalent to a Wannsee Protocal on Gypsies is
>>notable by its absense. Any evidence? How about some Hitler
>>speeches about gypsies?

>See Himmler’s Fight against the Gypsy Menace Circular.
>See the scant minutes of a conference in Berlin on 21 September 1939.
>Note also the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz.

>I quoted some of both for Ehrlich.

>Note the ordinace of the Reich Minister of Finance for 26 March 1942
>which made the Gypsies pay the same taxes as the Jews. Then note the
>Reich Citizenship Law of 25 April 1943 which deprived the Jews and the
>”Gypsies” of their already much curtailed rights as German Citizens.

>”At the instigation of the Reich Main Security Office of the SS, the
>Reich Minister of Labour has decreed, by the order of 13.3.1942 IIIb
>4656/42, that full Gypsies, and part-Gypsies with predominant or equal
>parts of Gypsy blood, are to be equated with Jews with regard to
>labour legislation.
> Dependants of full or part-Gypsies with predominant or equal parts
>of German blood can therefore no longer be cared for by the NSV. Only
>part-Gypsies with predominantly German elements in their blood are
>still to be included in the welfare schemes.”
>(From _The Racial State_ page 126-127)

>> Or shall we go into the “prove it” routine again?

>See the post to Ehrlich and above.

It is good to see you have something but I did ask for a Wannsee
Protocol equivalent.

>> Some day you are going to have to face it. There is no evidence
>>of any war time activity save against those who were considered a
>>security risk in time of war.

>How were the Jews and the Gypsies a security risk.

How were Japanese-Americans considered a security risk? They did
not have to be in fact to be considered a risk.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 19:53:21 PDT 1996
Article: 40545 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:51:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) uses this sig:

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>[email protected] (M Huber) whined:

> Nice add-on. Giwer, with so many eyewitnesses and survivors,
> one HAS to wonder, “Where are the victims?”

>As if Mr. Huber has bothered to find out exactly how many
>eyewitnesses and survivors are out there. He is too busy counting
>the receipts from pimping his own mother.

You mean to say that all those stories about the gassing being
done out of sight in Birkenau are all lies and that there were
witnesses?

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) explains:

> Actually the point is that if the conditions in the camps were
> as bad as portrayed none should have survived. Therefore either
> the gassing or the conditions needs to be revised.

>And no criminal has ever escaped from a maximum security prison! If
>even one criminal managed to escape from a maximum security prison
>then we must revise our definition of prison or security.

Not in the least. You are very stupid.

> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> that he was not an eyewitness.

>Expert testimony that denies the truth only proves that he was
>never an expert to begin with.

But you are incapable of judging as you are a scientific
illiterate.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 19:53:22 PDT 1996
Article: 40546 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 05:42:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>> If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>with OSHA.

>Perhaps Mr. Giwer would kind enough to post one of these “more relevent
>and established sources.”

>Does Mr. Giwer assert that OSHA is wrong? Yes or No?

I have no idea. Nor would I expect you to be doing anything but
playing another game intended to deceive people as you lack
integrity.

If you knew what you were doing you would certainly have cited
the organization OSHA contracted to produce the information you
are going to pretend to cite. I hope you are not under the
impression OSHA creates this stuff on their own.

But if you are then you will need to cite the credentials of the
individuals responsible.

Anyone stupid enough to believe a faceless bureaucracy has a lot
to learn about the real world.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 19:53:23 PDT 1996
Article: 40548 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:37:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <Ds31vu.7×[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>From the _Enclyclopedia of the Holocaust_ vol 1, pp.534-535:

>>>FUNK, WALTHER (1890-1960), Nazi economist and politician. Funk was born in
>>>East Prussia and studied law and economics at the Universities of Berlin
>>>and Leipzig. From 1922 to 1930 he was editor in chief of the _Berliner
>>>Bo”rsenzeitung (Berlin Stock Exchange Journal). An early member of the
>>>Nazi Party, he joined in 1924 and became one of its leading figures. In
>>>1931 Adolf HITLER appointed Funk to be his personal adviser on economic
>>>affairs. Funk was the party’s liaison with top figures in German industry,
>>>among them Emil Kirdorf, Fritz Thyssen, Albert Voegler, and Friedrich
>>>Flick.

>>>Owing to Funk’s initiative and influence, leading companies in the Reich,
>>>such as the chemical conglomerate I.G. FARBEN, made large contributions to
>>>the Nazi party treasury. It was also Funk who impressed upon Hitler the
>>>importance for the Nazi cause of German heavy industry and private
>>>enterprise.

>> Your source fails to give the Nuremberg references, without whidh
>>there is no source material.

>Now Nuremburg is the only valid source for you? Who died and appointed
>you God?

Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
truth from him? Who claims to have independently gone over the
archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
conclusion? Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
“it was all the war criminals fault” and it was accepted without
verification?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 1 19:53:24 PDT 1996
Article: 40549 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:13:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>
>>>I’m sorry, but you said first that Ca in bones will burn. I lost these
>>>posts, but as you’re recorded in Nizkor, if you will argue with this,
>>>we could retrieve your posts. OK ? Or perhaps the Nizkor recording is
>>>faked too ? In the middle-time, I will increase the time for deleting
>>>my records. It seems to be sometime useful.
>>
>> Of course you will continue to lie and Nizkor will continue to
>>keep out of context information to support the lies they want to
>>perpetrate. That is the way Jews and pro-Jews work as Nizkor is
>>demonstrating.

> My understanding is that Nizkor keeps a complete record of all of your
> posts – and the complete posts of most all other regular a.r posters.
> In what way is this “out of context”?

Taking out of context of the thread is taking them out of
context. What is it you have so great a difficulty in
understanding about that?

And why, since you know better than that, would you claim they
are not context?

You are clearly not that ignorant.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:49 PDT 1996
Article: 40553 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer’s Affliction
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:52:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 2:53:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Harry Katz)
>writes:

>>
>>There is a bit more that needs to be said to understand Mr. Giwer’s
>>aberrant behavior.
>>
>>
>At this point Mr. Katz launches into an actually pretty good anecdote
>about a friend whose car was smashed by someone full of pentup resentment
>and rage. He then extends the concept and concludes that Giwer is full of
>resentment and rage, and therefore acts out on this board.

>But even if this is so, is Giwer the only one who is “acting out”? I
>wouldn’t make presumptions about my fellow board members, but people can
>act out in a variety of ways. Nor do I exclude myself!

Relax. They are happy to claim I am projecting when this is a
clear statement of projection. They simply are not bright enough
to know what they are doing.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:50 PDT 1996
Article: 40557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chkdsk Weirdness
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:47:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 31 11:48:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Historical revision is changing Andersonville from a death
> camp to a POW camp run as best as possible due to the
> fortunes of war.

>I have not encountered this particular piece of historical revision,
>but I sincerely doubt that every historian conversant with the issue
>is in total agreement on this point, as Mr. Giwer’s statement implies.
>I am sure that there are those who believe the Confederacy ought to
>have freed their prisoners and given them a chance to live, and not
>confined them to a hell-hole that spelled certain death whether or
>not the Confederacy was doing the best it possibly could by them.

Freed them to do what? Pillage civilians on their way back
North? You have no comprehension of war.

> Revision is beginning to admit that people really are the same
> all over and do not become demons simply because the were on the
> losing side of a war.

>Yes, indeed, “people really are the same all over!” And, as an
>atheist like Mr. Giwer ought to know, people have evolved slowly
>over the millenia,

What does atheism have to do with evolution save in the mind of a
creationist idiot?

and still retain within their psyches the brutal
>impulses of nature that do manage to erupt from time to time and
>place to place. When this darker spirit emerges from the depths of
>the human psyche, people do seem to act like “demons,” but they are
>not truly demons — they are really just people. This has been
>stressed time and again by Holocaust publicists to counter the
>natural tendency to see the Nazis as somehow not human, because those
>who see the Nazis as something exceptional will not be alert to
>similar impulses in themselves or their friends and neighbors.

You must read a lot of Psychology Today. What is more clear is
the ability to demonize, as in Jews, Niggers and Nazis being
equally demonized. The mutual hatred between the Hymies and
Schwartzes and the Jews and Nazis differ only in that there are
no more Nazis. Jews are creating their own shibboleths to fight,
windmills if you will.

> Revision in this particular case is realizing that the evidence
> for death camps is slim to none.

>Mr. Giwer has already acknowledged that “revisionism here” is nothing
>more than the spreading of lies! This is yet another one, which is
>why we refer to it as Holocaust denial, not historical revisionism.

Only idiot attornies who claim testimony is evidence claim there
is evidence. But in one respect said attorney is correct. Typed
and unsigned statements were introduced into evidence, but it was
not testimony, it was not sworn, it was not crossexamined. It
was inadmissable save under the victor’s justice rules of
Nuremberg.

> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>Experts who claim the truth is “physically impossible” only prove
>they were never experts to begin with!

But then you are incapable of judging as you have no knowledge.
Therefore you implication is a lie.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 40559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:35:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 2:36:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>Can any of the intelligent folks around here help me?

>Ms. Thompson recently alleged to me that she was a “recognized authority
>on Constitutional law.” I asked her for some documentation of this —
>perhaps a c.v. listing her recent articles in peer-review journals and
>recent papers given at ABA-sanctioned conferences. At this point she
>became quite huffy and defensive and was unwilling to cooperate with my
>request for a c.v. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it almost made
>me think that maybe she was not being totally honest about her status as a
>legal expert.

>Can anyone give me some pointers on the publications issuing forth from
>this great mind? I’m not talking about videos about UFOs … those hardly
>pertain to Con. law. No; perhaps Mess’rs Litt et al can mention where I
>might find the abstracts of important articles by Ms. Thompson.

>Anyone?

I have not heard her make that claim. Although she did scare the
shit out of Janet Reno, so far as I am aware she is criminal
defense attorney and an all round rabble rouser.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:07:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 11:08:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >
>> >Hardly surprising to see Giwer defending Hitler on all
>> >fronts. In response to Mr. Ferre’s statement:
>>
>> A hundred years ago, saying what is now common knowledge about
>> the US Civil War was considered defending the slavery. It is
>> nothing new.
>>
>> >## and set about to conquer the whole world.
>> >
>> >Giwer comes up with
>> >
>> ># Then perhaps you could explain why Germany was not prepared
>> ># for war when England declared war.
>> >
>> >This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>> >continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>> >Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>> >of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not
>> >only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany’s acts of aggression
>> >and war.
>>
>> Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official
>> act of aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was
>> against Poland? Please post any other act of aggression in which
>> a single life was lost.

>Try for starts the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia,
>Rumania, and of course, the Soviet Union.

>And don’t forget the U.S. and Canada.

Put them in time sequence, look at the violations of neutrality
(particularlly the US), and look at who was getting ready to
attack whom (particularly Russia.) What is it you missed about
history in public school? I find it amazing you missed all of
the circumstances of that war.

>They were all countries against which Nazi Germany initiated military
>action against, or declared war against, first. They all suffered loss of
>lives at the hands of the Nazis.

A violation of neutrality is an act of war. But you know that.

>The ONLY exception is Britain and France, which mutually declared war,
>after warning Hitler that they would, againsty Germany for Hitler’s
>unprovoked invasion of Poland, to which they had mutual defense treaties
>with.

As I have noted that was very selective as if the issue was
Poland then they would have declared war upon Russia also. You
are aware that Russia invaded Poland are you not? Why do you
suppose it was OK for Russia to invade but not for Germany?

You appear to be suggesting the England and France were
complicite with Russia in that invasion. And if not, how would
you explain it? You would not be saying they would violate their
mutual defense treaties with Poland just to let Russia have half
of Poland are you? And if they would, what value the treaty?

>Even then it was Hitler’s Germany that intiated hostilities against
>Britian and France by invading the Low Countries and then France in the
>Blitzkrieg of 1940.

Excuse me sir, a declaration of war is an act of war. A naval
blockade is an act of war. You public school education did not
serve you very well.

>> PROVE your contention that it was a war
>> of agression for control of Europe. (Throw in the world if you
>> are up to it.)

>Gee, I dunno, Giwer- maybe because Hitler actually CONTROLLED most of
>Europe at one point? Duh! What a boob.

He controlled the countries that had declared war upon Germany
and the countries that had allied with them or violated their
neutrality in the war.

>> But of course you can not post any such evidence.

>But of course you cannot pose a rational argument. Just whiney drivel and
>Nazi apologia. Figures.

Why would you want to igore war time events that were in the
gradeschool history books 40 years ago when I was first learning
them? You appear to think I am saying something new here. What
is it you did not learn?

>> You folks will continue to pretend that the attitude in Europe at
>> the time was just like it is in our modern and happy times of the
>> European Union. It was not. Poland was prepared for war with
>> Germany and expected to win. England was prepared to use any
>> pretext to conquer Germany and took the attack upon Poland as the
>> excuse.

>Cite the historical evidence. In detail. What? You can’t? Figures. All
>mouth and no brains.

Are you saying you never heard the stories of Polish spies
leading them to believe Germany tanks were cardboard? Spying on
military exercises for what purpose? If England did not use
Poland as an excuse, why no declaration of war on Russia? You
really missed all of this?

I can understand you missing Poland expelling Polish citizens of
the German “race” and Jews and the German refugee camps for them
but you certainly can not have missed the selective declaration
of war.

>> Of course if England had really cared about an attack upon Poland
>> England would have declared war against both Germany and Russia
>> but chose not to. The immediate British blockade of Germany was
>> expected to result in an easy conquest. England didn’t give a
>> rat’s ass about Poland. It was a simple pretext for conquering
>> Germany.
>>

>Cite the historical evidence. In detail. What? You can’t? Figures. All
>mouth and no brains.

You are claiming you did not even learn gradeschool history. You
can not be that ignorant.

>[drivel snipped]

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

And the best you can do after claiming ignorance of gradeschool
history is recite the mantra. Is this something like, I can’t
hear you?

Is there any fact I have recited you did not learn by the time
you finished high school? Is there anything you are basing your
claim upon other than WW II propaganda?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:24:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 2:25:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>: It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>>>: equations [sic] after this statement.
>>
>>>Does this mean that you plan to give a source for you claim that HCN is
>>>a byproduct of coke combustion, or retract that claim in light of the
>>>evidence to the contrary posted here?
>>
>> That was NEVER my claim. I simply said that more HCN would
>>PROBABLY be produced by the Kremas than was ever used in any
>>extermination program.

> Excuse me good sir but either it would or it would not. If all you
>can say is “PROBABLY” then you are now admitting that you have just been
>handwaving all along here.

That has been what this crap has all been about, boy.

>>I added later that it was a normal pollutant produced by the combustion
>>process.

> In what quantity? And what is the source of your data? Excuse me,
>but I cannot believe that you have personally burnt coke and measured HCN
>output.

Excuse me but what does a “probably” have to do with your
question? Or are you trying to keep it going?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:53 PDT 1996
Article: 40571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:28:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 2:29:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Behold the Nizkor.

Neither does it sow nor does it reap.

But as the Father in heaven sees each sparrow that falls, he sees
Nizkor, as does his consort, Astarte.
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:54 PDT 1996
Article: 40574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated witho
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:07:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:08:52 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> On the other hand, let us assume for the moment it is true.
> Look at the heat directed at me for not giving an “it was
> so terrible” response.

>Any heat directed at Mr. Giwer over his treatment of Anne Frank is
>entirely due to his vicious attacks and innuendo against her
>character and circumstances. Mr. Giwer is pleased to define
>a vicious insult as “not giving the proper response!”

What in the fuck does anyone know about her character? For all
anyone knows she could have played child prostitute for the
protection. Did you ever meet her?

> Ah, but you can’t tell tear jerking stories about nameless,
> faceless people.

>They are nameless and faceless to the rest of the world, but not to
>the survivors. To those, like Mr. Giwer, who cannot possibly
>understand the enormity of the horror, a person with a name and a
>face serves to make the experience more intelligible, which is why
>the world seized on Anne Frank’s story and took it to heart.

I hear more reference to the Tropic of Cancer than I do to that
book. You greatly over-rate its significance.

>Mr. Giwer and Mr. Huber seem to think that Anne Frank was a
>propaganda invention, as if anyone could predict that she would
>capture the hearts of the world in advance!

What in the world makes you think it has? It is not even good
enough for Hollywood to have bought the movie rights. Or did I
miss the movie? How about the TV docudrama? The HBO special?

What fantasy world are you living in that leads you to believe
the world gives a shit about it? It is only the holohuggers who
care about it. The comparatively obscure Schindler’s List did a
much better job of it.

> And where is the compassion of all those who were trying to get
> to me for all of those who died without a name?

>What makes Mr. Giwer think that the rest of the victims are forgotten
>or that the rest of us have no compassion for them? The answer is
>that he knows he is wrong, but he also knows that a lie like this
>will generate lots more heat directed against him. And, despite his
>feeble protests, generating heat is his primary reason for posting to
>this newsgroup.

Of one thing you can be certain of in this world, billions have
died and are unremembered. And another thing you can be certain
of, billions more will die in the future and be unremembered.
You can be certain this will continue until the human race
becomes extinct.

Billions to one, with any luck, trillions or more to the
compasion you want for the one simply because it furthers your
idiot cause.

>The real question is: After demonstrating such callous disregard for
>Anne Frank, what makes Mr. Giwer think that anyone believes that he
>has any compassion for the millions of other victims who remain
>nameless to the rest of the world.

I should care about one? Why? A holohugger says she only
survived because she was 15 and all younger were killed
immediately. Why do you not give greater regard for the more who
died sooner? What is your priority other than notoriety?

> You are quite correct, she is too useful, as has been
> demonstrated here.

>Mr. Giwer is only fooling himself if he thinks he has “demonstrated”
>anything here.

Not me, you folks who demand compassion for one out of billions.
Sort of like worshipping one particular Big Mac.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40589 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cosmic Slop
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:55:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 11:56:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>CHUCK FERREE WRITES:

>GIWER, I RESENT THIS KIND OF SICK SO-CALLED HUMOR. KNOCK IT OFF!

>You are not only a dumb troll, you are even a dumber story teller.
>If you’d stay sober long enough, perhaps your mind would clear up long
>enough for you to go have your liver checked. And I’d suggest you tell
>your shrink about all those weird dreams too. They can fix you, Mr.
>Giwer, but you have to want to be fixed.
>Chuck

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> From the first episode:
>>
>> A black barber speaks to a black customer.
>>
>> Did I ever tell you about the American dream? Every nigger
>> swimming back to Africa … with a Jew under each arm.
>>
>> =====
>>
>> But of course merely posting this will be called antisemitic by
>> the idiots.
>>
>> —-
>> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

Excuse me but if you do not like one of the best series HBO has
ever produced then tak it up with them, not me.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!marlin.ucsf.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:32:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 30 11:33:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Now you are claiming white with both lean and rich mixture.

>This is what the paper says.

># There is something very wrong with what you are saying.

>What “revisionist” axiom have I contradicted?

># I will mail you my address if you will run a copy at the
># office and mail it to me.

>For various reasons, I prefer not to send you mail. Do not
>mail me your address. Anyway, I quoted the relevant part:

>[Regarding low fuel-air ratio]
>
> “Under these conditions the exhaust was acrid (causing lachrymation
>in under 10 seconds). At times it was almost clear, but sometimes
>white fumes were produced”.

>[Regarding high fuel-air ratio]

> “Under these conditions the engine produced a dense white smoke,
>apparently consisting mainly of unburnt oil; very little carbon
>was present. The fumes were very acrid, causing intense pain to
>the eye in 4 to 7 seconds. The visibility in the chamber was only
>a few inches, and the lethal quality of the fumes was greater
>than than under conditions A,B, and C”.

Even though it has been overtaken by events in that the witness
was clearly close enough not to have been confused and made up
the steaming story, this is what I have been saying. It is only
at the high ratio, a rich mixture, where there is this “smoke”
droplets of unburned oil, AS IT SAYS. Note the very little
carbon comment. You appeared to want to go back and have white
smoke under both conditions.

This is exactly what I have said about it. You are the person
who still has an oil soaked building and one that has to deal
with the explosion hazard while in operation.

># And I have no problem digging into more about diesel engine
># design to get to the bottom of this. As I believe you will
># agree as will I and everyone else here, they have not seen
># white exhaust coming out of a diesel even idling.

>I cannot speak for everyone. I do not have any problem with
>studying this further. But the Pattle et. al. team did
>study this matter. One difference is that they used more
>modern and much smaller engines than in the death camps.

OBE now. The statement is that the white smoke is unburned oil.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:48:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <Ds31vu.7×[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 1:49:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>From the _Enclyclopedia of the Holocaust_ vol 1, pp.534-535:

>>>>>FUNK, WALTHER (1890-1960), Nazi economist and politician. Funk was born in
>>>>>East Prussia and studied law and economics at the Universities of Berlin
>>>>>and Leipzig. From 1922 to 1930 he was editor in chief of the _Berliner
>>>>>Bo”rsenzeitung (Berlin Stock Exchange Journal). An early member of the
>>>>>Nazi Party, he joined in 1924 and became one of its leading figures. In
>>>>>1931 Adolf HITLER appointed Funk to be his personal adviser on economic
>>>>>affairs. Funk was the party’s liaison with top figures in German industry,
>>>>>among them Emil Kirdorf, Fritz Thyssen, Albert Voegler, and Friedrich
>>>>>Flick.

>>>>>Owing to Funk’s initiative and influence, leading companies in the Reich,
>>>>>such as the chemical conglomerate I.G. FARBEN, made large contributions to
>>>>>the Nazi party treasury. It was also Funk who impressed upon Hitler the
>>>>>importance for the Nazi cause of German heavy industry and private
>>>>>enterprise.

>>>> Your source fails to give the Nuremberg references, without whidh
>>>>there is no source material.

>>>Now Nuremburg is the only valid source for you? Who died and appointed
>>>you God?

>> Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
>>truth from him? Who claims to have independently gone over the
>>archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
>>conclusion? Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
>>”it was all the war criminals fault” and it was accepted without
>>verification?

>You tell me the complete sourcing on Walter Funk. I’m no expert like
>you.

What I posted had the Tribunal page references. Did you miss
that?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!bofh.dot!vyzynz!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 09:20:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 4:21:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> If books were too hard for me, I might not know any better. But
>> then it is only people interested in deliberate character
>> assassination who will consistently misrepresent what is said.
>>
> We are agreed then. You are interested in deliberate character
>assassination.

Then we are agreed you misrepresented the oath taken by witnesses
in Pennsylvania.

You next response should be to demand a repost of when you said
it.

We are also agreed you lied when you claimed you spoke to a
patent attorney regarding what I said about patents IF you showed
him my messages. But if you gave him your personal lie about
what I said you may be correct that he laughed. But you should
realize that it was at you rather than at me.

But then what can one expect from someone so terminally stupid,
so abysmally ignorant, so worthless a human being that they can
not master a killfile?

You have proven yourself so stupid, ignorant and worthless by
that inability that it is a wonder anyone can continue to take
you seriously any longer.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cultured McVay
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 09:11:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 4:12:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran ([email protected]) whines:

> Under Webcrawler > Revisionism > “Green Eggs Report” we are
> given a brief bio on McVay, and his photo, for any one who wants
> to see the face of the collaborator himself.

>”The collaborator!” Apparently, Mr. Moran subscribes to the secret
>Jewish conspiracy theory.

What conspiracy? What secret? Whatever there is, is hiding
right out here in the open as it is on this conference. Mutual
support. “I will explain what he really meant” when he says
something tottally stupid. “I will speak for him” when he can
not speak for himself. The regular use of “we” and “us” which
only stops and is never rebutted when when it is pointed out.

Give up the pretensions and the attempts to get someone to claim
there is a secret conspiracy. It is no secret and it is no
conspiracy (save for the publically announced email agreement to
append the “troll” mantra about me, none dare call it conspiracy)
it is all out here in the open. No secrets. No conspiracy.

>I guess Mr. Moran is just too ugly to post a photo of himself!

Now that is a mature post.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That lovely bomb morgue/bomb shelter
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 04:17:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 31 11:18:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>REALITY CHECK: How about Giwer instead telling us why semi-buried morgues
>>>that are bermed and covered with topsoil _shouldn’t_ have concrete roofs?
>>>(Note that said berming and covering would have an insulative effect,
>>>helping to regulate the temperature to keep the morgues at a constant
>>>temperature- just like it does in root cellars. Not to mention that the
>>>topsoil and snow during the winter is rather heavy- thus requiring a
>>>sturdy roof for such an expanse. Or that such a flat roof, being exposed
>>>to seepage from rain and snow, would also need to be water resistant-
>>>hence the use of a concrete and water-proof felt composite.)
>>
>> Obviously you will not answer the question. As you know there is
>>no indication of covered from the artist’s conception with
>>topsoil

> When and where did you see this artist’s conception?

It has been posted here. How did you miss all the uuencoding?

>>else your gas introduction holes could not exist.

> Our superscientist now declares that one cannot put any sort of tube
>through topsoil. Very good.

The point is that topsoil was an invention of the writer.

>>Further you know that a gas chamber would need to be as warm as
>>possible for the speed of the outgassing of the pellets

> No, only as warm as necessary. 20 degrees C would be a perfectly fine
>temperature. Of course if the first intent was to make the room a morgue
>(as it seems to be) then it would be good to regulate the temperature. The
>aim would not be to kill as fast as possible, simply to kill fast enough.
>They could already gas them faster than they could burn them.

Regardless of the aim, the times reported are in the same time
range. But then there are no records of any such calculations.
And of course room temperature is quite high for a morgue.

>>so that
>>insulation would be counter productive. The huge expanse of an
>>uninsulated roof would be counterproductive to a morgue yet those
>>are the only drawings known to exist.
>>
>> But the question is, why was there a more expensive flat roof in
>>the first place? Why will you not answer that question? Why not
>>the much cheaper peaked wood roof as with the other two
>>structures? A common exhaust fan in that would have kept it
>>cooler.

> Indeed, there is an even bigger mystery here. Since the Giwer-troll
>appears to be suggesting that the reinforced roof, the ventilation system,
>and the gas-tight door (which he tried to call an air-tight door, although
>that is not the word the SS used) were for use as a bomb shelter.

I have of course gone through all of that before.

In fact I even pointed out the ridiculous idea of a “gastight”
door for a room with four holes in the roof, although the size
and number of the holes varies with which story the holohuggers
want to be true at any particular time.

So tell me. With four (or three or two) holes in the roof of
what value a gastight door? Were they trying to make certain it
all came out the roof? I am certain a clever person like you can
explain the need for a gastight door with those holes in the
roof.

But
>only one of the two underground rooms were so equipped. The other room
>had neither the door nor the ventilation system, though a ventilation
>system was originally planned for it. If they decided not to make it a
>bomb shelter, then they should have left it a morgue. Yet they did not
>put the corpse chute back into the design, which would make it easier to
>use as a morgue, which is what it was called on the drawings. So it would
>appear to have been neither a bomb shelter, nor a morgue, nor a gas
>chamber. Yet it still had the expensive reinforced flat roof.

What happened to those design changes to the LK as IV and V that
proved your case?

> I await the explanation of our 163 IQ critical thinking type. Maybe
>the design engineers were simply incompetent. But if that is the case,
>then there is no valid conclusion that can be reached from the roof type,
>and all of Mr. Giwer’s finger-flapping about what engineers do and don’t
>do is worthless since of course it would only apply to competent
>engineers.

You still refuse to answer the question as to why a more
expensive type of roof was used and yet you want me to answer
more questions based upon what you making up. Why will you not
answer that simple question instead of inventing a covering of
topsoil?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:59 PDT 1996
Article: 40639 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:40:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:41:47 AM PDT 1996

[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Tell me where the other 6.8 million were exteriminated. Please
>> tall the screens you need.
>>

>
>Mr. Giwer:
>
>What is “exteriminated”?
>
>By asking “where,” are you making some sort of accusation that all the
>victims of the Holocaust were “exteriminated”? Maybe some were killed on
>the BATTLEFIELDS.

I regret you are unaware that said “holocaust” refers to 12M
total people of which only 5.2M were Jewish. If you are claiming
battlefield deaths then we can assume the Jews were Red Army
conscripts (they took women) who died on the battlefield.

Battlefield deaths are largely accounted for. There are a total
of 32 million unaccounted for civilians from that war. But you
know this.

>Please explain “Please tall the screens you need.”

Many more than you have taken.

>Oh, before I forget:

When all else fails the mantra of the brain dead holohuggers who
can not think for themselves but who conspire to post this bit of
stupidity. But then who ever denied that holohuggers were
clannish?

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Sara

Ah, yes, the female Jew who would reel at being called a Jewess.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cosmic Slop
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 07:45:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:46:46 AM PDT 1996

>From the first episode:

A black barber speaks to a black customer.

Did I ever tell you about the American dream? Every nigger
swimming back to Africa … with a Jew under each arm.

=====

But of course merely posting this will be called antisemitic by
the idiots.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40641 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust without Gas Chambers
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:11:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 31 3:12:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>>>>>The suffering of the Jewish people in WW2 deserves respect. It is not
>>>>>>respected by pretending that it hinges on whether there were or were not
>>>>>>gas chambers. Nor is it respected by pretending that it hinges on how
>>>>>>many CAN be crammed into gas chambers.

>>>>>In a way I can agree. It is a silly nit-pick on the part of the
>>>>>deniers here. To actually think that whether the Germans could burn x
>>>>>number of bodies or that Zyklon-B behaved in a particular fashion is a
>>>>>suggestion that the Holocaust didn’t happen IS self-delusional. It is
>>>>>true that all bodies were not burned. It is true that not all people
>>>>>were gassed. It is ture that other methods were used. Some were more
>>>>>efficient than others. Still, in the end, 12,000,000 non-combantants
>>>>>during war were murdered. They were not murdered because they were
>>>>>enemies of the state, but because they were viewed as inferior.

>>>> How do you separate 12M as murdered from the 32M unaccounted for?
>>>>Please be specific in your response.

>>>Who is unnaccounted for and what are the references for this. You
>>>start bringing in stuff outside of this thread I get confused.

>> I don’t know who is unacconted for. The same estimating methods
>>were used. If you question 32M you equally question 12M.

>You made a positive statement above. Don’t make claims you can’t back
>up. For one thing I’m not questioning the 12M.

>You are nothing more than a waste of valuable time ind space. This is
>what a troll does. It comments on things it doesn’t know (“I don’t
>know who is unacconted for.”) anything about. what respond at all,
>Giwer?

Valuable time and space? As compared to what? You mean in
comparison to the entire usenet feed? Or are you referring to
simply the time you choose to spend in this conference?

But then you confuse easily.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:01 PDT 1996
Article: 40642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 06:35:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 1:36:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official
># act of aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was
># against Poland?

>Er, ah, didn’t they also occupied, say, Holland?

Not until AFTER England selectively declared war upon Germany and
not upon Russia for exactly the same act of aggression upon
Poland and not until AFTER Holland gave port access to England,
the clear belligerant in that war.

># Please post any other act of aggression in which
># a single life was lost. PROVE your contention that it was a war
># of agression for control of Europe.

>How else would you call it, when Germany ran over Poland, Greece,
>Holland, France…

>have you lost your mind completely? Don’t bother to answer.

But those only occurred AFTER the selective declaration of war by
England and after those countries sided with England in that
declarartion.

But of course you are invited to post evidence to the contrary.
Given that there is none, you will be over-taxed in your creative
skills.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 40656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Zyklon B packing label (0/1) Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 08:56:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 3:57:38 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >But that really isn’t what is at issue here. What IS at issue is your
>> >blatant and purposefull misreprsentation that the Dessau plant was
>> >DESTROYED and that that by implication that it would not have been
>> >possible to ship five tons of Zyklon B to Auschwitz when, in fact, it was
>> >not destroyed and that the five tons of Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz.
>>
>> >And also, of course, that when called to account on this you tried to
>> >weasel out by saying that I wrote that the planrt was destroyed, which I
>> >most certainly did not. Even then you could not get your excuses straight,
>> >as you also included my origional statement that “the Dessau Zyklon plant
>> >was bombed and heavily damaged.”
>> >
>> >Note the heavily DAMAGED, which clearly contradicted your claim that the
>> >plant was DESTROYED.
>>
>> I claim only that if there was no impact upon the Zyklon-B
>> production that there was no point in mentioning the damage as it
>> was an irrelevant point.

>Bullshit. You lied, plain and simple. Now you again lie and squirm to try
>and talk your way out of the untenable position you put yourself into.

You are very strange on this subject. It was posted here. You
did not read it. You could at least claim you had a newsfeed
problem. Most interestingly is that none of your fellow
holohuggers will correct you. But that is expected.

>> >> As you know it was stated that what killed insects lasted for six
>> >> months but what killed people only lasted for six weeks.
>>
>> >I know nothing of the sort! It has been clerly stated by others, as well
>> >as by myself in citing Hillberg, that the shelf life of Zyklon B was three
>> >months. I would suggest you re-post the article, verbatim, where you
>> >alledge it was calimed otherwise or retract you assertion.
>>
>> Excuse me, but citing Hilberg has nothing to do with physical
>> reality. He has no credentials to evaluate technical claims.

>More bullshit. You were asked to repost the article, verbatim, to support
>your assertion that the shelf life of Zyklon B was claimed to be six
>months. You have failed to do so, which just proves that you lied and were
>simply spouting bullshit to start an argument. You’re pathetic.

It only means

1) you to not read everything

2) you have a faulty newsfeed

3) your fellow holohuggers will not tell you that is what was
posted

>Furthermore, you have no qualifications whatsoever, not to mention your
>complete ignorance of Hilberg’s work, to even begin to make such comments.
>If you had bothered to check my origional cite to Hillberg mentioning the
>3 month limit, you would have seen that he wrote “The Zyklon had only one
>drawback: within three months it deteriorated in the container and thus
>could not be stockpiled” (_Destruction_, p.567) and referenced it with
>footnote 55 which said:

>”55. Characteristics of Zyklon described in the undated report by Health
>Institute of Protektorat: ‘Directive for Utilization of Zyklon for
>Extermination of Vermin’ (Ungeziefervertilgung), NI-9912.” (Ibid.)

>Obviously, you haven’t the integrity (or intelligence) to check what
>people actually write before you maliciously slander them and their work
>simply to puff up your sick ego in your attacks on the Holocaust.

>But if you think Hilberg and NI-9912 are incorrect, then I would point
>out that the label on a packing case of Zyklon B sent to Auschwitz on
>April 24th, 1944, stated a guaranteed shelf life of three months from date
>of dispatch. (_Technique_, p.18.). The image file of the packing label is
>attached.

>Do you also claim that not only Hillberg and NI-9912 are wrong, but that
>DEGESCH, the manufacturer of Zyklon B was wrong as well? Your evidence for
>this is? Oh, right. You don’t have any evidence. You just blow shit out
>your lips and expect people to believe you. Uh huh. Why don’t you grab a
>copy of one of Baron’s “manuscripts” and wipe your chin. You’re
>disgusting.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about to be quoting
unqualified sources.

>[snip]

Something more you could not deal with deleted.

>> The way this is going, I am the largest single subject at Nizkor.

>Indeed. You is the largest single subject of riducule I’ve seen in a long
>while. You’re an asshole par excellence all right! And to think you crow
>about such “distictions.” Tsk tsk. Poor Giwer, so misunderstood… you
>can’t help but be what you are: A misanthropic dickhead. You give new
>meaning to “self-stroking” with your twaddle!

It is good to see you children are practicing your ridicule and
your mantra.

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

But then, talk about conspiracies, the use of this one was
publically announced as a conspiracy of the holohuggers. So what
is your point in all of this other than to prove that holohuggers
conspire against those whom they do not want to post?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:03 PDT 1996
Article: 40660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:27:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 4:28:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>I assumed correctly that Mr. Giwer would only be familiar with the
>>>>>Bronsted-Lowry definition of acidity. Rather than confuse him, I’m
>>>>>willing to concede that CO2 itself is not a Brosted-Lowry acid. CO2
>>>>>solvated in water, however (most gases are soluble to some extent in
>>>>>water), in in fact a Bronsted-Lowry acid. The average tropospheric
>>>>>pressure of CO2 is about 330 ppm. As a result of the solvation of this
>>>>>CO2 in water, ambient water is not pH 7 but pH 5.6.
>>>>
>>>> I am certain Bilik is able to speak for himself without you
>>>>attempting to speak for him.
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with how usenet works perhaps. When I see Mr.
>>>Giwerr willfully misinterpreting others, I will certainly feel free to
>>>jump in.
>>
>> I fail to see how saying CO2 is CO2 in a misinterpretation.
>>Perhaps you can explain that WITHOUT telling me what he “really”
>>meant.

>Mr. Giwer claimed without qualification that CO2 is not an acid.
>Dr. Bilik’s reference to the acidity of CO2 was understandable to
>anyone having the least bit of education in chemistry.

There was never any question that you are unethical, unprincipled
and a deceitful person.

You are convicted by your own words.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:21:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:24:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 4:25:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>>Keith Morrison <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>> Certainly. The rank difference to make a direct report makes
>him
>>>> a staff officer, not a line officer. As such he had no
>>>> independent authority to order anything.
>>
>>>As a former member of the military this idea causes some amusement,
>>>as I’m sure it will to anyone else who has served under arms.
>>
>> Enlisted or officer? How did you avoid having a chain of
>>command?
>>
>>>> He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could
>tell
>>>> religion is beyond me)
>>
>>>”And this, sir, is the room where the operations take place. Currently
>>>it is full of Jews.”
>>
>>>”I see. Carry on.”
>>
>>>That’s one way he might have known. Next silly question?
>>
>I tend to avoid eponymous threads but the answer to the alleged Jewishness
>of these naked victims is simply obvious. Circumcision!

Where in the hell have you been in your short life? Circumcision
has not the slighest thing to do with being Jewish and never has.

Ritual sexual mutilation is not limited to Jews. It is a very
primative custom that many people follow.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 16:19:33 PDT 1996
Article: 40678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:02:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 3:03:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

As there was one time some question about this matter.

http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~ld9d/arch.html for more
information.

James Ingo Freed’s initial reluctance to take on the planning of
the museum dissipated after
visiting the shtetls and the death camps in Europe. He began to
incorporate elements of both the
Jews’ lives before the Holocaust and architectural details from
the camps themselves into his
planning. Freed said, “There are certain methodologies of
construction, certain tectonics that
begin to be very powerful in the memory of the place.” His only
fast architectural requirement from
the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
Remembrance. This has been
taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
Jews who died in the Holocaust. His
other design decisions were concerned with the abstraction of
form to evoke meaning, saying, “I
wanted to make it abstractly symbolic. I was not interested in
resuscitating the forms of the
Holocaust.” With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
avoidance of any neo-classical
alignment with Albert Speer’s architecture of the Third Reich,
Freed began drawing specific
proposals.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 19:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 03:12:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 8:13:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <[email protected]>,
>> >>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
>> >
>> >> Actually it was you who attempted in mid stream to change the
>> >> criteria for bodies self combusting and failed to continue the
>> >> discussion. It was also you who got me called a liar for
>> >> claiming that bones burn.
>> >
>> >> I have dropped no such claim as you are well aware. All you
>> >> were doing was using the formal meaning of the term burning to
>> >> make it appear I was lying and those you deceived claimed I was
>> >> lying for saying that HCN was a “burn” byproduct.
>> >
>> >>That is not the way that most readers will remember this controversy.
>> >
>> >>Mr. Giwer continually claims to be the only person qualified to
>> >>discuss matters of chemistry, going so far as to blast anyone else
>> >>who contributes to the discussion as totally unfit (usually after they
>> >>prove him to be dead wrong).
>> >
>> > After the usual example of a religious fanatic who has accepted
>> >the holocaust as an article of faith has shown himself to be a
>> >liar for Yahweh AND admits it, no person with integrity woud side
>> >with such a person.
>>
>> So are you claiming the DejaNews system is a liar for Yahweh and has
>> no integrity? Because it remembers your words the same way Mr. Katz and I
>> do.
>>
>> Or do you believe that computers can suffer from false memory
>> syndrome? Inquiring minds want to know.

>I think yet another quick review of Giwer’s original claim is in order:

>——————————————————————————–
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Mark Van Alstine) says:

>[snip]

>> >Because, Tommy, if you _can’t_ show that it didn’t pose a hazard then it
>> >certainly can’t be it was “illogical” for the Nazis to have carried out
>> >homicidal gassings at Krema I because HCN posed a hazard, now would it?
>>
>> The fire would of course probably produce more HCN than was used in
>> any gassing unless there was quite some care in producing complete combustion.
>——————————————————————————–

>An interestng choice of words. Very prevaricating. On one hand it can be
>construed as “without a doubt” and on the other as “reasonably but not
>certainly expected.” Or if taken together: “almost certainly expected.”
>As in: almost certainly expected “unless there was quite some care in
>producing complete combustion.”

As you appear to need the help. The “almost certainly expected”
refers to at least trace production of HCN. The “probably”
refers to the quantity produced. In case you have missed the
good old days completely one banks a fire by shutting down the
air supply.

>The meaning becomes more clear when the context of Giwer’s assertion in
>taken into account with my immediately previous comment. In essence, I
>refuted Moran’s assertion that carring out homicidal gassing in Krema I
>was hazardous (and therefore did not take place) because the hazard from
>the HCN gas vented from the chamber was unproven. (Dr. Keren has also
>succintly pointed out that since homicidal gassings _did_ take place,
>there was obviously no hazard to the Nazis in the surrounding buildings.)
>Giwer’s prevarication aside, his challenge to this clearly intimates that
>there _would_ have been such a hazard from HCN, as the furnaces of Krema I
>would _almost certainly have been expected_ to produce more HCN that the
>homicidal gas chamber.

You are obviously unaware of the direction in which hot gases
travel. That means you are uneducated.

>Obviously, Giwer intended for his claim to be imprecise in exactly such a
>way as to give him an out when he was called on it. (That 163 IQ has to be
>good for _something_!) He _was_ called on it (several times, in fact) and
>he _did_ take his out. He’s been backpedaling ever since.

You are obviously confuse easily.

>As confirmation of Giwer’s backpedaling he has been asked to support his
>claim that the combustion of coal would produce a higher concentration of
>HCN gas than would have been present when the gas chamber in Krema I was
>ventilated. To date he has refused to supply this evidence to support his
>claim.

What claim did I make about coal? But if I did, why should
evidence for common knowledge be required?

>Given Giwer’s continued refusal to substantiate his origional claim that
>”[t]he fire would of course probably produce more HCN than was used in any
>gassing unless there was quite some care in producing complete
>combustion,” I would suggest to those concerned here in alt.revisionism
>that this particular issue be put aside until Giwer develops the personal
>integerity and intellectual honesty required address this issue
>responsibly. Further discourse is pointless and detracts from the general
>discussion regarding Holocaust denialism and the more pertinent
>discussions of other participants.

It is you folks who claim ignorance of common knowledge, not me.

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

But you think the mindless recitation of a mantra is going to
have some effect. I do find you folks quite foolish.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 19:34:42 PDT 1996
Article: 40696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 03:12:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <Ds31vu.7×[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 8:13:28 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Who else claims to have interviewed Walther Funk and received the
>> truth from him?

>Certainly not Giwer!

>>Who claims to have independently gone over the
>> archived captured documents and arrived at an independent
>> conclusion?

>Certainly not Giwer!

>> Or are you suggesting that someone at Farben said,
>> “it was all the war criminals fault” and it was accepted without
>> verification?

>Giwer certainly is, hence his apologetic drivel about the Nazi war
>criminal Funk!

The reason you do not like is it is that he was convicted of
steaming people to death and making doormats of their hair, both
of which are considered to have never happened today and
therefore he was innocent of those crimes.

You holohuggers are like Christian Scientists with appendicitis
when confronted with a war criminal convicted of crimes you admit
never occurred.

Here we have a man tried, convicted and executed of crimes that
you agree never occurred.

And you, when faced with that, call pointing it out “apologetic
drivel” because you are not willing to face what happened.

And you do that because it is the best you can do in the face of
what really happened. It is incidental that it shoots the shit
out of one more Treblinka story.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 19:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 40701 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:51:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 6:52:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>> Thank you for demonstrating the color claims are lies made up by
>>some unknown person or persons.
>>
>> You folks really do not realize what you have been doing in the
>>least. Do you remember the “useful in the future” routine?
>>Guess what? The future is now. Go review the few color
>>references and explain why the few color mentions of cyanide
>>poisoning are pink rather than cyanotic.
>>
>> It is up to you. Salvage the color claims. Do so. It is all in
>>your hands.

>I have no interest in salvaging any claims. If Mr. Giwer suggests that
>some claim is untrue, perhaps he could post the claim along with
>evidence that it cannot be true. Thus far he has done neither.

Why is it no longer surprising that when people paint themselves
into a corner with one position to address one ad hoc issue that
they never want to even think about the implications of their
clever story being applied to all cases?

And of course, when the other cases come up again, why they never
said a word on the subject.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 20:11:31 PDT 1996
Article: 40722 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:09:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <D[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 4:11:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>>>with OSHA.
>>
>>>Perhaps Mr. Giwer would kind enough to post one of these “more relevent
>>>and established sources.”
>>
>>>Does Mr. Giwer assert that OSHA is wrong? Yes or No?
>>
>> I have no idea. Nor would I expect you to be doing anything but
>>playing another game intended to deceive people as you lack
>>integrity.
>>
>> If you knew what you were doing you would certainly have cited
>>the organization OSHA contracted to produce the information you
>>are going to pretend to cite. I hope you are not under the
>>impression OSHA creates this stuff on their own.
>>
>> But if you are then you will need to cite the credentials of the
>>individuals responsible.
>>
>> Anyone stupid enough to believe a faceless bureaucracy has a lot
>>to learn about the real world.

>Mr. Giwer admits that he had absolutely no basis for claiming that
>cyanosis was not a symptom of CO poisoning and that all victims of CO
>poisoning would look pinkish. Thanks for playing.

Thank you for demonstrating the color claims are lies made up by
some unknown person or persons.

You folks really do not realize what you have been doing in the
least. Do you remember the “useful in the future” routine?
Guess what? The future is now. Go review the few color
references and explain why the few color mentions of cyanide
poisoning are pink rather than cyanotic.

It is up to you. Salvage the color claims. Do so. It is all in
your hands.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 20:11:32 PDT 1996
Article: 40724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 05:34:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 12:35:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 30 May 1996 13:29:55 GMT, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[snip]
>> The story basically has it the ashes were further reduced to
>>smaller units by a pounding machine.

>No. The large fragments of remaining bones were reduced by pounding
>them in a mortar–just like they are still reduced today in modern
>funeral homes.

Why am I not surprised? One holohugger says the law requires
modern crematoria to reduce everything to a fine ash. Another
holohugger says in modern times the remains of bones are ground
up.

Why don’t you two get together and agree upon a single story
before you two post these conflicting stories?

>> Lets finish off with the particulars:
>>
>> The Holocaust story has it that up to three people every twenty
>>minutes could be cremated.

>Nice try, but the “Holocaust story” you describe is a fiction of your
>own making. *No one* has put forward a serious claim that three bodies
>could be destroyed in a crematory muffle in twenty minutes.

Only because they have never done the math on their claims. But
whether or not they have done the math, they have made the claim.

>Do the math. The Jahrling memo claimed that Krema II could burn 1440
>bodies per day in fifteen muffles. If Krema II went flat out, twenty
>four hours a day the equation would be 1440 / 24 / 15 = 4 bodies /
>hour / muffle and not three every twenty minutes.

As it is a direct function of body weight, you are claim one per
15 minutes, not 20 minutes. Nice math. Or have you really
missed the claim has been 20 minutes per body?

If three or four
>small bodies (equivalent to one large adult male) were placed in a
>muffle and burned, the rate of burning is only slightly higher than
>what can be achieved in an ordinary funeral home crematorium today.

That is a completely false statement. The modern time of
cremation in on the order of two hours as a minimum, period, no
buts, no exceptions. AND you claim is that it was faster as a
significantly lower temperature.

>But again, I know of only one claim that this maximum, rated capacity
>could be maintained indefinitely or that it was ever in fact achieved.
>If it had been maintained indefinitely, then the total Krema capacity
>claimed by Jahrling would have burned 4 million bodies in the time
>allowed as the Russians claimed.

But as you have noticed, no one claims 4,000,000 any more.
Rather only 1,000,000 over five years. That doesn’t strain any
capacity using the real rates. Nor does it strain the registered
internees. Nor does it strain normal death rates under such
conditions.

>There is a world of difference between maximum rated capacity and what
>can be achived in ordinary day-to-day operations. For example, in my
>youth I operated a commercial paper shredding machine that was rated
>at one tonne of paper per hour. But given the myriad of distractions
>in an ordinary working day, I considered 400 kg a very good *day*:
>had to stop and tie off the bales by hand; I had to separate out
>non-recyclable contaminants, and so on.

>Similarly for the Sonderkommando they had to stop and load the bodies,
>clear the ash grates, stoke the burners, clear out the unburned bone
>fragments, and so on.

>> You say the ashes didn’t have to be turned
>>over to relatives and there was no coffin.

>Yes. Such niceties extend the cremation time considerably. The law
>says that the relatives can get the ashes back but that they must get
>back only the ashes of the deceased and not someone else’s ashes. That
>means that only one body can be cremated at a time. The SS did not
>feel so constrained, and they saved time by burning more than one body
>at a time.

But it makes no change whatsoever in the time required for
cremation.

>> You say they weren’t
>>reduced to as fine ashe as other conditions.

>Yes. Last year I cremated the remains of two friends, both of whom
>left provision for cremation in their estates. The first friend left
>provision for an ordinary funeral, and his ashes were a fine, clean,
>white powder. The second friend went for a “budget” funeral, and his
>ashes were grey, oily, and contained black bone chips milled to the
>size of kitty litter. I know all this because it was their wish that
>their ashes be mixed and scattered.

>Now, the first friend took a lot longer to cremate than the second
>friend and his funeral cost a good deal more.

And the times were? You have not answered the mail.

>> You also mention a
>>cooling time between firings.

>Yes. A modern funeral home does not run flat out, and the muffle has
>to be cleaned between cremations.

You are not providing any original information in answer to the
questions being raised.

>> Now why don’t you put all the pieces
>>together into a sweeping conclusion.
>> What you have here is 1+1+1+1 = 0.

>No. That is Moran Math(tm), the same math that says that, since forty
>people showed up to my friend’s funeral, the deceased must have
>numbered in the thousands.

>But by way of a conclusion: the legal constraints placed on modern
>funeral homes did not apply in the death camps. There are no technical
>reasons why the SS could not have disposed of as many corpses as
>historians have claimed.

So provide the time differences between the two examples you
claim personal knowledge of so we can get on with this.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:18:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40756 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Picture this
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:35:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 1:36:18 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Another source for the first gassings in Block 11 is the
>book “Mutzen Ab!” (Caps Off!), by Polish officer Zenon
>Rozansky, who was an inmate in Auschwitz. Rozansky was
>among the inmates who had to carry the corpses of the
>victims of these first gassings to Krema I.

>The book is in German; I have xeroxed some of it, and can
>send a copy to interested posters.

But you can not do a text scan and post it here. Why is that?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:31:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>Dr. Bilik made no error. He assumed that you would be familiar enough
>>>with what he was talking about when he referred to CO2 as an acid.

>> I have no idea of any degrees this person might have. He said
>>CO2 is an acid. CO2 is not an acid. Unless you are capable of
>>mind reading, you have no idea what he meant. And he can speak
>>for himself. He does not need you to speak for him.

>> As noted, one more example of holohuggers coming to the defense
>>of other holohuggers.

>So, I have to defend myself and a chemist is unskilled ?

I have no idea if he is skilled or not. I do know he will say
anything to mislead people into believing something about his
cherished holocaust is true even though it is a clear deception.

In any case,
>R. Green resumed very well what I was saying.

Now that you know what you were talking about, that is.

It isn’t a matter of
>’holohuggers’, that’s only what a reasonable reader could understand
>from my post (at your opposite, always avoiding the core of the
>problem).

>The start of this thread is your claim that HCN was produced by the
>furnacies, and that’s could explain what it’s some CN- on the walls of
>the so-called Leichenkeller.

I have NEVER connected that production with ANYTHING about the
traces in the LK. You have just made up how this thread started.
Why did you do that? It appears to me that you can not address
what I am saying so you try to claim it is about something you
feel you can address.

Therefore you also are among the ranks of the deliberately
deceptive.

>I answered that coke didn’t produce HCN, but a lot of CO2, what is an
>acid stronger that HCN, ant that moreover, the L-Keller was above the
>ground, one floor beneath; and that this would suppose too that the
>furnacies were not airtight.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that was ever
said by me.

>The revisionists claim that HCN ‘sticks’ to the walls (it’s quaint, I
>know – ask another risers of deathes to find a better word), and that
>the water from breathing, washing aso in the L-Keller was hazardous
>for the Sonderkommandos, since HCN dissolved in water could be
>released when they were at work. I agree you didn’t deal with this
>point. But if you have a reason to think that the walls of the
>L-Keller weren’t wet, give it, it will be useful.

>Anyway, the furnacies produced not only CO2, but H2O too, or the
>bodies didn’t contain any water. If HCN could go down one step in the
>L-Keller, then H2O could. The mix is an acid in the classical
>Bronsted-Lewis acception, and this acid is stronger than the prussic
>acid. It will be of no use to argue about the modern acidity
>definitions from Lewis, Isanovich,.. as H2O was necessarily present
>too.

So now you have run on for three paragraphs talking about
something that has nothing to do with anything I said just
because it is the only thing you are capable of addressing.

Why would you do that unless it were you intention to deceive
people?

>> NOR did I at any time say anything about sticking to any walls.
>>I mentioned simply that the chimneys would PROBABLY have put out
>>more HCN than was used in any gassing.

>Yes. Chimneys. Could you please recall me what was the heigth of the
>chimneys ? Then I could tell you what was the distance between the top
>of the chimney and the Vergassungkeller.

Why would anyone care? You are aware of the direction hot gases
take when exiting chimneys are you not?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:20:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok, we have two levels of discussion going here. Lets separate them.
>>>>>>> First, the regular archivists on this group (with maybe one or two
>>>>>>> exceptions) are not professional historians.
>>>>
>>>>>> But who insist upon mindlessly posting out of context quotations
>>>>>>from out of context books and who want to keep the discussion to
>>>>>>stories about the holocaust rather than the holocaust itself.
>>>>
>>>>>I think this works both ways. There are several different methods
>>>>>going on here. If you are so concerned with out-of-context quotes,
>>>>>then prove they are out of context.
>>>>
>>>> By inspection. Is that not obvious to you?

>>> Fine. You claim that something is taken out of context somewhere,
>>>present the actual text or a pointer to it so that people can inspect your
>>>evidence and decide if they agree with your judgement. That’s what I do –
>>>I have posted specific DejaNews URLs so that people can see exactly what I
>>>am claiming is evidence of your lying.

>> What in the hell is your problem? Anything not presented as a
>>complete document is taken out of context. I do not see the
>>problem you are laboring under. Is this too hard for you?

>Nope, that is how it works. The setting for any out-take can be
>accurately presented or summarized. The out-take may follow. Please
>stop proving to everyone here that you are an idiot by posting idiotic
>replies.

It is good to see you agree Keren is not doing what you describe.
It is also good to see you agree he is taking his mindless posts
out of context.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 40765 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:21:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 3:22:23 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>

>>>I assumed correctly that Mr. Giwer would only be familiar with the
>>>Bronsted-Lowry definition of acidity. Rather than confuse him, I’m
>>>willing to concede that CO2 itself is not a Brosted-Lowry acid. CO2
>>>solvated in water, however (most gases are soluble to some extent in
>>>water), in in fact a Bronsted-Lowry acid. The average tropospheric
>>>pressure of CO2 is about 330 ppm. As a result of the solvation of this
>>>CO2 in water, ambient water is not pH 7 but pH 5.6.
>>
>> I am certain Bilik is able to speak for himself without you
>>attempting to speak for him.

>Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with how usenet works perhaps. When I see Mr.
>Giwerr willfully misinterpreting others, I will certainly feel free to
>jump in.

I fail to see how saying CO2 is CO2 in a misinterpretation.
Perhaps you can explain that WITHOUT telling me what he “really”
meant.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 40772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN’s book & H*ber’s lies
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:34:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:

>Ken McVay posted the following excerpt from Goldhagen:

>>>>>The Austrians’ hearty celebrations included immediate symbolic
>>>>>acts of revenge upon the Jews, who in Austria, no less than in
>>>>>Germany, were believed to have exploited and injured the
>>>>>larger society. As seen here, again and again, the circus of
>>>>>Jewish men, women, and children — commanded to don their
>>>>>finest clothes, being forced to wash streets, sidewalks, and
>>>>>buildings of Vienna (frequently with small brushes and water
>>>>>mixed with burning acid) — was met by the cheers and jeers of
>>>>>crowds of Austrian onlookers. ‘In Waehring, one of Vienna’s
>>>>>wealthier sections, Nazis, after ordering Jewish women to
>>>>>scrub streets in their fur coats, then stood over them and
>>>>>urinated on their heads,'<18> This was the purest form of
>>>>>’non-instrumental’ labor, and the purest expression of its
>>>>>ideational and psychological sources.” (Goldhagen, 286-7)

>>>>> Work Cited

>>>>>Goldhagen, Daniel Jonah. Hitler’s Willing Executioners. New
>>>>>York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996

>The Giwer-Troll had this brilliant comment to make about it:

>>>> War propaganda is wonderful is it not?

>The mysterious Ehrlich606 countered Giwer with the following:

>>>No, Matt, you are wrong. This sort of thing did happen in Austria and
>>>Germany, and indeed there was worse than this.

>The Giwer-Troll jumps back with the following repartee:

>> Excuse me, but if it did happen then there were contemporary news
>>accounts in this and other countries from correspondants in
>>Austria who witnessed it. Do you happen to have any of those as
>>evdience?

>William Shirer, who was a newsperson for some media outlet or
>other at the time of the Anschluss (or however it is spelled),
>was in Vienna at the time, and describes precisely the sort of
>thing that Goldhagen discusses in his book “The Nightmare Years”.
>Giwer could, of course, refer to Goldhagen’s book himself and
>look up the sources that are cited for this excerpt, but he prefers
>to demand that others do his research for him.

I asked after the contemporary news accounts and you provide a
book. Are you saying that it was not news? Or that they all
missed it at the time? I have a better one for you, the world
didn’t think Jews were important enough to report it. Try the
last. It fits in so well with the mythology.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 19:51:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>We are in front of a typical “reasoning” (I don’t know if it is the
>>>proper word) of a denier.

>>>The question to know if a cyanosis is really more often (and from far)
>>>seen instead of a pink color of the skin in these case, is never
>>>approached. Mr Giwer preferred to contest the value of the works of
>>>the OSHA.

>> If the best reference anyone can find is OSHA then one has to
>>suspect that more relevent and established sources do not agree
>>with OSHA.

>I didn’t say it is the best reference. I said that the OSHA is
>reliable,

Upon what basis do you say that? Its reputation in the medical
community? Its scholarly research?

Don’t you find it the least bit strange that a government
regulatory agency is being offered as a authority? Given the
reputation of OSHA in the US I find it laughable.

but I said above all that virtually all the sources give
>cyanosis as a sign of CO acute poisonig, even rudimentary medical
>manuals.

Which is another subject. Also is the description of the color
of cyanide poisonning. Also is the difference between skin and
lips.

>The easier way to make your mind is to go to a bookshop and to read
>any recent manual of toxicology. If you were a scholar, but you said
>that you’re not, you could too read more detailed issues about this
>point.

You confuse reading the opinion of others with reading the
knowledge of others as do most here. They believe both are the
same thing. Unfortunately they are clearly different.

>Actually, we have these points:

>1/ the cyanosis is seen very often with the victims of CO. Some other
>specific signs are present too (but involving to be visible that the
>victims were nude and died slowly), and in some rare cases a pink
>colorness of the skin. Then the witnesses who saw this sign on some
>victims are well-founded to say that the CO poisoning is the more
>likely cause of the death for these victims.

>2/ with diesel’s exhausts, it is uncertain that the CO was always the
>main cause of the death. It is depending on the settings of the
>engine, and asphyxia or NOx is equally likely, in my mind even more
>likely. In Kulmhof, the gass vans’ drivers had to go at 40-50 km/h to
>kill all the victims in the distance to the graves. With asphyxia or
>NOx, the cyanosis is always present. It’s obviously the same problem
>with static chambers as in Belzec or Treblinka: the ‘Heckenholt
>foundation’ certainly learned quickly the better settings.

>3/ your claim that cyanosis located on the lips and the tip of the
>nose is specific, related to prussian blue, and proves that HCN was
>used is still ridiculous.

I was not talking about proof in any manner, as you well know. I
was talking about creative details thrown into a creative story.
The more you post about it the more you demonstrate the story was
created.

>Let me know if any linguistic barrier is still remaining. I will
>explain as I can anything you don’t understand.

I am still waiting for someone to recognize where the blue lips
detail comes from. You have already established that it would
not happen and thus, despite this “true eyewitness” relating it,
the story is false.

Where do you think this incorrect detail came from?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 40784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:00:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 7:01:17 PM CDT 1996
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Keith Morrison <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> ># But if it was that Mueller then Eichmann is exonerated and
>> ># was murdered by Israel.
>>
>> >Can you explain the brilliant reasoning in “since Eichmann
>> >reported to Head of the Gestapo Mueller, this means
>> >Eichmann was innocent”?
>>
>> Certainly. The rank difference to make a direct report makes him
>> a staff officer, not a line officer. As such he had no
>> independent authority to order anything.

>As a former member of the military this idea causes some amusement,
>as I’m sure it will to anyone else who has served under arms.

Enlisted or officer? How did you avoid having a chain of
command?

>> He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could tell
>> religion is beyond me)

>”And this, sir, is the room where the operations take place. Currently
>it is full of Jews.”

>”I see. Carry on.”

>That’s one way he might have known. Next silly question?

That is not idicated in any manner by what is said. But then
they might have been wearing stars too. But mights do not make
for an explanation.

>> He says he could not bring himself to look closely, even once,
>> which indicates no mental preparation for what he was seeing.
>> That is a very, very strange thing for a Lt. Col. NOT to do in
>> front of the grunts and the civilians he is visiting.

>I take you’ve often seen officers who are present at the scenes
>of mass murder being carried out by their troops?

That is my. It was something he did not expect to find. If it
had been policy he would have known about it.

>> As to my suspicions that it was the wrong Mueller, “I just got
>> the hell out of there” is not, repeat NOT the response of anyone
>> with command authority. In fact it is not the response of even a
>> staff officer who could bluff his way through enlisted and
>> civilian types on the Lt. Col. insignia alone.
>>
>> Wbat in the hell was he running away from save a scene that he
>> was thoroughly unprepared for? One for which he was all of this
>> time reporting to, that is, working for the Mueller you claim it
>> was without knowing what to expect? How is that possible?

>You ever see a person die in a car accident, Giwer? I don’t mean seeing
>them carry away those nice plastic bags, I mean arriving when they were
>breathing and not being able to to a damn thing in time so you can only
>watch them die?

>You ever go into a burning building and pull out a child who won’t see
>their third birthday or an old man who collapsed three feet from the door
>and never moved again?

>I’ve met the people who’ve had to do these things and the one thing they
>always say is that nothing can prepare you for it until you are there
>staring it in the face. Every police officer and firefighter and doctor
>knows that they will eventually, probably, have someone die but nothing
>can prepare them for it until it happens.

Let us put this is perspective. He is an Lt. Col. reporting to
the two star Mueller. What is this “can’t stop it” crap? He
issues an order to stop it on the spot.

Then he heads for the office of the officer in charge of the
operation and orders him to stop and if it is a senior officer he
invokes the authority of the two star, gets a message off to
Berlin, and the two star issues a blanket order to stop such
activities under penalty of time in Auschwitz camp 13.

And then at liesure they find out who started this sort of thing
and hang him and anyone else involved in ordering it.

Is that so hard?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 40786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Proof is for Goyim
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:01:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote:

>>You claims that Al Gentile is a
>>Righteous Gentile have so far not been validated. His claims to have
>>worked in the Nuremburg trials has not been substantiated and we can’t
>>yet place him where he says he was. Until we can do this, we can move
>>on to the specifics of his “testimony.” It appears that Su doesn’t
>>give his “testimony” much credence. Do you, Su?

>Absolutely not. If he had ever been at Nuremburg, I would have known
>about it years before he ever BBS’d.

>In fact, he would not have shut up about it.

Nor in the posts were they any claims of having been at
Nuremberg.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 40797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:14:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>>This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>>>continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>>>Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>>>of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not
>>>only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany’s acts of aggression
>>>and war.

>> Then perhaps you can explain why the only recorded and official act of
>>aggression committed by Germany in all of WW II was against Poland?
>>Please post any other act of aggression in which a single life was lost.
>>PROVE your contention that it was a war of agression for control of
>>Europe. (Throw in the world if you are up to it.)

>Merciful God, the Giwer-troll has completely lost his mind. I would think
>the attack on France, the attack on Russia and the violation of Belgian
>neutrality in 1940, not to mention the invasion of Denmark, just might be
>considered acts of aggression.

France was moving to take back the Ruur militarily or do you
suppose those French troops were moved to the border just as a
training exercise?

Russia had moved into a position to attack German troops and
received nothing more than a pre-emptive strike.

Belgium and Denmark were giving port access to the British in
violation of neutrality. And all of this started when Britain
selectively declared war on Gemany and not on Russia. And they
were supporting the British with war materiel in violation of
their supposed neutrality just like the US, rather FDR, was
violating its supposed neutrality.

Germany had every right to attack those countries.

>The Giwer-troll, after sober second thought (assuming that is possible)
>might learn for the first time, that the German aggression against Poland
>did *NOT* occur in WWII.

And when did the German AND Russian conquest of Poland occur,
pray tell?

>> But of course you can not post any such evidence.

>Just posted, dimwit.

Why did you leave out the circumstances to which Germany
responded? Would you like to take a shot at explaining why
Britain did not declare war on Russia for exactly the same reason
as against Germany?

>> You folks will continue to pretend that the attitude in Europe at the
>>time was just like it is in our modern and happy times of the European
>>Union. It was not. Poland was prepared for war with Germany and expected
>>to win. England was prepared to use any pretext to conquer Germany and
>>took the attack upon Poland as the excuse.

>Absolute rubbish, not surprisingly not supported by a single quote from
>anyone.

Why would I need to provide a quote from anyone? Are you unaware
that BOTH Germany and Russia conquered Poland? Are you unaware
the Britain did not declare war on Russia also?

>Perhaps the Giwer-troll could enlighten us on who declared war against whom
>between Germany and the United States?

After some two years of the US violating its neutrality by
selling war materiel to Britain Germany exercised its right in
international law to declare war upon the US. Or do you feel
that countries that violate their neutrality should be considered
untouchable?

>> Of course if England had really cared about an attack upon Poland England
>>would have declared war against both Germany and Russia but chose not to.
>>The immediate British blockade of Germany was expected to result in an
>>easy conquest. England didn’t give a rat’s ass about Poland. It was a
>>simple pretext for conquering Germany.

>Interesting how England was going to conquer anyone by *NOT* fighting.
>Methinks the Giwer-troll is really into the sauce this time.

What is this “not fighting” you are talking about? What do you
consider a naval blockade but an act of war? You also appear to
have missed that expeditionary force of Brits that got their
asses kicked off the continent and had to be rescued by fisherman
and the like.

Did you go to a public school?
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 40802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 04:29:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Where in the hell have you been in your short life? Circumcision
>>has not the slighest thing to do with being Jewish and never has.

>Giwer, I throw up my hands.

>”This is my Covenant which you shall keep . . . every male among you
>shall be circumcised . . . that shall be the sign of the Covenant
>between Me and you. At the age of eight days every male among you
>shall be circumcised throughout the generations . . . And the
>uncircumcised male . . . shall be cut off from his people; he has
>broken My Covenant.” (Genesis 17: 10-14)

>From _To Be a Jew_ by Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, Basic Books, 1972,
>paperback edition.

>”It is encumbant upon every father to fulfill the Biblical precept to
>circumcise his son on the eight day, or to designate a qualified
>representative to do so on his behalf.

>This ritual is known as the *bris* or *brit* (in Sephardic
>pronounciation). The word itself means *covenant*. The word for
>circumcision is is *milah*. *Brit milah is, therefore, the full name,
>meaning “the Covenant of Circumcision.

Very good. Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.

It is not unique to Jews. It is not a discriminant between Jews
and non-Jews as you were trying to make it out to be. Later we
can go into their all standing in a single row facing him so he
can make an inspection to form this opinion.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An all Jewish holocaust
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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If anyone does not recognize this they can read the complete text
http://www.ushmm.org/education/guidelines.html

GUIDELINES FOR TEACHING ABOUT THE
HOLOCAUST

Methodological Considerations

1. Define what you mean by “Holocaust”.
The Holocaust refers to a specific event in 20th century
history: The systematic,
bureaucratic annihilation of six million Jews by the Nazi
regime and their collaborators as a
central act of state during World War II.

===

Note the definition

So the question is, what is the name of the event that included
all of the people mentioned below? Or is it to remain nameless?

===

In 1933 approximately nine million Jews lived in the
21 countries of Europe that would be occupied by Germany
during the war. By 1945 two out
of every three European Jews had been killed. Although Jews
were the primary victims, up
to one half million Gypsies and at least 250,000 mentally or
physically disabled persons
were also victims of genocide. As Nazi tyranny spread across
Europe from 1933 to 1945,
millions of other innocent people were persecuted and
murdered. More than three million
Soviet prisoners of war were killed because of their
nationality. Poles, as well as other
Slavs, were targeted for slave labor, and as a result tens
of thousands perished.
Homosexuals and others deemed “anti-social” were also
persecuted and often murdered.
In addition, thousands of political and religious dissidents
such as communists, socialists,
trade unionists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses were persecuted for
their beliefs and behavior
and many of these individuals died as a result of
maltreatment.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40807 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More interesting information
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:40:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 4:42:12 PM PDT 1996
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Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
holocaust by country and by percentage in that country. This of
course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
countries, presumably at the end of the war. That gives us 9.6
million.

We can also look at the numbers in the Wannsee Protocol and find
in January 1942, excluding Britain and Ireland from the total,
11M Jews in these same countries.

Thus we have about 1.4 million unaccounted for.

One wonders how these unaccounted for were separated from those
who died without records — if we are talking about the “no
records kept” version of the story.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:05 PDT 1996
Article: 40808 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:23:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Ehrlich606 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>Actually, this is not what I am getting at all. I am granting that Jews
>>>>>>were in many cases killed just because they were Jews. I many be wrong on
>>>>>>this, but I don’t think that can be said about any other group in WW2.

>>>>> Huh? Gypsies were killed just because they were Gypsies, and due to
>>>>>the same racial ideology.

>>>> The lack of an equalivalent to a Wannsee Protocal on Gypsies is
>>>>notable by its absense. Any evidence? How about some Hitler
>>>>speeches about gypsies?

>>>See Himmler’s Fight against the Gypsy Menace Circular.
>>>See the scant minutes of a conference in Berlin on 21 September 1939.
>>>Note also the Gypsy camp at Auschwitz.

>>>I quoted some of both for Ehrlich.

>>>Note the ordinace of the Reich Minister of Finance for 26 March 1942
>>>which made the Gypsies pay the same taxes as the Jews. Then note the
>>>Reich Citizenship Law of 25 April 1943 which deprived the Jews and the
>>>”Gypsies” of their already much curtailed rights as German Citizens.

>>>”At the instigation of the Reich Main Security Office of the SS, the
>>>Reich Minister of Labour has decreed, by the order of 13.3.1942 IIIb
>>>4656/42, that full Gypsies, and part-Gypsies with predominant or equal
>>>parts of Gypsy blood, are to be equated with Jews with regard to
>>>labour legislation.
>>> Dependants of full or part-Gypsies with predominant or equal parts
>>>of German blood can therefore no longer be cared for by the NSV. Only
>>>part-Gypsies with predominantly German elements in their blood are
>>>still to be included in the welfare schemes.”
>>>(From _The Racial State_ page 126-127)

>>>> Or shall we go into the “prove it” routine again?

>>>See the post to Ehrlich and above.

>> It is good to see you have something but I did ask for a Wannsee
>>Protocol equivalent.

>I did. But you can’t read or understand English. Giwer, you disgust
>me.

Do you really think I care in the least about what you pretend to
emote?

>>>> Some day you are going to have to face it. There is no evidence
>>>>of any war time activity save against those who were considered a
>>>>security risk in time of war.

>>>How were the Jews and the Gypsies a security risk.

>> How were Japanese-Americans considered a security risk?

>Americans were paranoid enough to consider them a risk. They were also
>easily identifiable. These Japanese-Americans may not have been a risk
>in reality, but the actions of the government can point you to the way
>the human mind works when racial paranoia is involved. Te major aspect
>to this is that we were at war with Japan.

The news in the 30s discussed the war of some worldwide Jewish
organization against Germany. Or have you missed those posts?

>> They did
>>not have to be in fact to be considered a risk.

>No they did not. Good hind-sight, Giwer.

In hindsight Elie Wiesel and his father were very foolish to have
chosen to retreat to Germany with the SS rather than await
liberation by the Russians also. But then, you can explain that.
You would almost think that Wiesel and his father did not know
what was happening. But the Elie was unable to work and in the
infirmary at the time so perhaps he did not believe the “gassing
those unable to work” stories either.

Or do you really want to continue this game?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:06 PDT 1996
Article: 40817 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:05:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 1:06:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) said:

>>>What I said was that it is for the discussion of “revisionism”, which
>>>implies that some readers will not agree with that approach and will
>inject
>>>the truth into the discussion. How can one discuss the “revision of the
>>>orthodox holocaust stories” (Mr. Giwer’s words) without discussing the
>>>”orthodox holocaust stories” themselves? The mind boggles.

>> That was an unfortunate phrasing. In this case I meant to
>>attempt to piece together the evidence to determine what in fact happened
>>rather than to merely change stories or create new
>>stories.

>Every once in a while, you say something that I find quite reasonable, even
>if I don’t agree with its totality, that makes me wish you were here for
>reasonable discussion instead of trolling. This group started off, as far
>as I remember, as a haven for “revisionists”: Gannon, Raven and some others.
>A bunch of us smelled them out and leaped in with the truth of the
>Holocaust. The battle was on. Eventually, Gannon, and some of the other
>”revisionists” had had enough and left (Raven does make the occasional
>appearance). As to your statement about piecing “together the evidence to
>determine what in fact happened”, I wish that were what happened here. It
>would be most interesting and might even approach *real* revisionism. But
>that is not what happens here.

You greatly over-rate yourself. And if what was done then is
what is being done now I can see how people can get tired of
people of the company of creationists.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:07 PDT 1996
Article: 40828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 21:27:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 01 4:28:26 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>It could well be said that Andersonville was a death camp in that many
>>>soldiers neadlessly died there, but Matt Giwer wants to insinuate (on
>>>the basis of a TV-movie)

>> If fact, you lying asshole,

>This guy is over 50?!

>> I suggested that if the books were
>>too hard for you that you watch Gone with the Wind to see the
>>conditions civilians were living under.

>Actually, you were talking about the TNT movie.

I have no idea what TNT movie you are talking about. I only
mentioned Gone with the Wind.

>> You then immediately
>>claimed my information came from that movie and retreated from
>>your claim of an extensive collection on POW materials that
>>included the War between the States.

>If I really thought you were worth the time, I would go through all my
>old files and bring up the conversation, but I think your insinuations
>have been exposed for what they are.

I said this same thing the FIRST time you made the claim and you
did not respond then when it would have been easy for you to do
so. Now of course you will claim otherwise.

>> Other than that, you are compounding your lie with this post.

>And you usually resort to name calling when you are caught with your
>pants down. Thanks for the laugh. I didn’t think you would troll on by
>this one. You *have* to comment on *everything.*

An accurate description is not name calling.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 40832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lions and tiger and bears and screaming and moaning, oh my!
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 07:59:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 3:00:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

What strange behavior those being gassed. Whether by HCN or CO
it is painless.

Yet those are the only reports. No threats, to “let me out of
here”, no attempts to break down the door, nothing tub the least
likely things for a painless form of death are reported.

Were I the suspicious type I would think that the person creating
these stories believed that such deaths were painful.
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 08:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 40833 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 08:02:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 3:03:51 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Hauptschrfuehrer Gustav Labs
>[Quoted in “Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison gas, edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 87]
>———————————————————-
>Then Burstinger, who had reappeared from the cellar passage,
>came up to me. He ordered me to start the engine and to leave
>it running for about twelve minutes. I did what I was told,
>and a minute later I heard terrible screams and groans coming
>from the interior. I got frightened and jumped out of the
>driver’s cab. I realized that the exhaust had been directed
>to the interior of the van to kill the people inside. Bothmann*
>yelled at me, “Have you gone mad?”. He told me to get back
>behind the wheel. I did so and waited. I didn’t dare to do
>anything, because I was afraid of Bothmann. Gradually, after
>some minutes, the screams and groans of the people died away.

>* SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Hans Bothmann.

Have you ever noticed that is it always screams and groans from a
painless gassing? Have you ever noticed the lack of “let me out
of here” demands? Have you never noticed the lack of notice of
pounding on the doors or walls even? Have you never noticed the
lack of even empty threats?

Am I the only one who has noticed this not only inhuman behavior
but contrary to natural law behavior?

Of course some idiot wag will ask if I have ever been gassed to
death and thus how do I know. Beyond being very silly, that
would pretend to ignorance of all CO suicides and all reports of
HCN executions in the US for murder.

But then, there is nothing beneath holohuggers.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 11:09:29 PDT 1996
Article: 40841 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
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Subject: Israel, in the beginning
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:47:32 GMT
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ZIONIST MASSACRES IN 1948: New evidence

The following article (3160 words!) was published in the Hebrew
daily Ha’ir on 6 May 1992. It
contains new revelations about war crimes committed by the
Zionist forces in 1948 against
Palestinian Arabs.

There are a number of reasons why the publication of this
information is important:

1. It shows once more and through the pen of Israeli historians
what motivated the Palestinian
Arabs to flee in 1948.

2. It shows how the Zionist establishment has attempted and still
attempts to hide the truth about
the massacres of Palestinians in the 1948 War.

3. It exposes the fallacy according to which it was mainly
right-wing Zionists (the terrorist groups
IZL and LEHI led by Menahem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir) who
committed atrocities against
Palestinian Arabs in 1948. In fact, most atrocities and massacres
were committed by ‘nice
Jewish boys and girls’, from the Labour movement, may of whom
grew up in kibbutzim in a
humanist environment.

4. It exposes the myth, entertained in the West, according to
which Israel’s practices towards
Palestinians worsened when the right-wing Likud came to power.

5. It documents the development of a growing awareness among
Israeli intellectuals of the need
to face the past with honesty. This is a rather recent and
salutary phenomenon.

An appendix to the article includes summary descriptions of some
other massacres (published
along the article in Ha’ir).

Elias Davidsson translated from Hebrew and added some explanatory
notes .

NOT ONLY DEIR YASSIN

By Guy Erlich, Ha’ir, 6 May 1992

After Lydda (1) gave up the fight, a group of stubborn Arab
fighters barricated themselves in the
small mosque. The commander of the Palmach’s(2) 3d Battalion,
Moshe Kalman, gave an order
to fire a number of blasts towards the mosque. The soldiers who
forced their way into the mosque
were surprised to find no resistance. On the walls of the mosque
they found the remains of the
Arab fighters. A group of between twenty to fifty Arab
inhabitants was brought to clean up the
mosque and bury the remains. After they finished their work, they
were also shot into the graves
they dug.

The Jewish American journalist Dan Kurtzman, heard this testimony
>from Moshe Kalman, who
has meanwhile died, while he was writing his book ‘In the
Beginning 1948 (Bereshit 1948)’ about
the War of Independence. As Kurtzman did not want to hurt the
State of Israel, he did not include
this testimony, but told this story to Israeli historian Aryeh
Yitzhaki, when they met in the IDF
archives, when Kurtzman was there working on his book. Kurtzman,
who is now visiting Israel in
connection with his new book (incidentally, these days a new
edition of his older book is coming
out), confirmed – after some hesitation – that he heard this
testimony from Moshe Kalman.

Since its establishment, the State of Israel keeps a conspiracy
of silence concerning massacres
committed in the War of Independence (4). The only massacre
acknowledged in official
publications is that of Deir Yassin, perhaps because it was
perpetrated by the IZL (Irgun). Books
and press reports have referred to dozens of cases, but only
partially and incompletely. Yitzhaki
corroborates this impression: ‘I read all the documents in the
IDF archives written about the War
of Independence. In the course of years I became especially alert
to anything concerning the
massacres.’ Yitzhaki is a lecturer in the Bar Ilan University
[Tel Aviv] in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael
Studies (5) and is also senior lecturer in the field of military
history in IDF courses for officers. In
the sixties he served as director of the IDF archives within the
framework of his IDF service in his
capacity as historian.

Yitzhaki assembled all the testimonies and documents concerning
the subject matter and waited
for the right time to publish. ‘The time has come’ he says, ‘for
a generation has passed, and it is
now possible to face the ocean of lies (6) in which we were
brought up. In almost every conquered
village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which
are defined as war crimes, such
as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes. I believe that
such things end by surfacing. The
only question is how to face such evidence.’

According to Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed
in the course of the War of
Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in each massacre) and
about hundred smaller
massacres (of individuals or small groups). According to him,
these massacres had an enormous
impact on the Arab population, by inducing their from the
country.

Yitzhaki: ‘For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in
the lie, that the Arabs left the
country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute
fabrication. The fundamental cause of
their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this
fear was not at all imaginary. From almost
each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab
villages between May and July
1948 – when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest – a
smell of massacre emanates.
Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were
committed after the battle,
sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and
while the villages are
“cleansed”. Some of my colleagues, such as Me’ir Pa’il, don’t
consider such acts as massacres.
In my opinion there is no other term for such acts than
massacres. This was at the time the rule of
the game. It was a dirty war on both sides. This phenomenon
spread out in the field; there were no
explicite orders to exterminate. In the first phase a village was
usually subjected to heavy artillery
>from distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After
giving up resistance, the Arab
fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the
advancing forces. Some would not flee
and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In
the course of cleansing we used
to hit them. One was ‘tailing the fugitives’, as it used to be
called (‘mezanvim baborchim’). There
was no established battle procedure as today, namely that when
blowing up a house, one has first
to check whether civilians are still inside. In a typical battle
report about the conquest of a village
we find: ‘We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where
resistance was noticed. After the
resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would
leave or who looked
dangerous’.

The historian Uri Milstein, a myth-shatterer, corroborates
Yitzhaki’s assessment regarding the
massacres’ extent and goes even further. ‘If Yitzhaki claims that
almost in every village there were
murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of
the State, each battle ended with a
massacre. In all Israel’s wars massacres were committed but I
have no doubt that the War of
Independence was the dirtiest of them all. All over the world,
massacres constitute an integral part
of the norm of war and it is in fact the fundamental basis of
human conduct in a situation of battle.
The idea behind a massacre is to inflict a shock on the enemy, to
paralyze the enemy. In the War
of Independence everybody massacred everybody, but most of the
action happened between
Jews and Palestinians.’

Milstein adds: ‘In my opinion, the regular armies of Arab states
were less barbaric than the Jews
and the Palestinians. Until the entry into the battle of the Arab
armies, the concept of taking
prisoners was unknown. The regular armies, especially that of
Jordan and Egypt, were the first in
the region who did not kill prisoners, as a matter of principle.
Not that they were exceptional, but
they killed the least of all, relatively speaking. The Jordanian
Legion even succeeded to stop
Palestinians of massacring Jews in Gush Etzion, at least in a
part of this area. The education in
the Yishuv (7) at that time had it that the Arabs would do
anything to kill us and therefore we had to
massacre them. A substantial part of the Jewish public was
convinced that the most cherished
wish of say, a nine-year old Arab child, was to exterminate us.
This belief bordered on paranoia.’

A careful study reveals that until today over twenty massacres
were publicly reported. The
testimonies were not published in one collection, a fact which
adds to this phenomenon another
dimension. At least eight massacres were described by Benny
Morris in his book ‘The Birth of the
Palestine Refugee Problem’. Two cases were reported in Milstein’s
books. Two cases are
reported in the book of Palestinian historian Arif al-Arif. The
rest were reported in novels,
memories and the press. But it appears that at least eight more
massacres were committed
which are reported here for the first time. Two of them were
discovered by Yitzhaki, three by
Milstein, one case was revealed by Kurtzman and was presented in
the introduction to this
reportage. One case was brought to our knowledge by a kibbutz
member who wishes to remain
anonymous and one more case was revealed by Dov Yirmiya.

The testimonies concerning the massacres, revealed here for the
first time by Yitzhaki, are kept in
the IDF archives. Those who wish to study the documents in
question confront a blank refusal. The
director, Miki Kaufman: ‘If you are looking for what I believe
you are looking for, then you can
forget it. In any case, just keep in mind that we are reading
over any documents before you are
allowed to see them and we cull out material that you should not
see’.

A person who already had to face this barrage is Benny Morris. He
addressed himself to the
State Archivist to get a report by the government-nominated
Shapira Committee, on killings in the
War of Independence, but his request was denied.

‘The Archivist refused to let me see the report and I went then
to the Supreme Court. According to
the [State] Archives Law (1953), access is open to documents
concerning [government] policies
and political matters after 30 years and documents related to
security matters after 50 years. As
the report by the Shapira committee is a political document
issued by the Ministry of Justice, it
was to be accessible by the public. But after I entered my
request to the State Archivist and to the
courts, the State Prosecutor and the Archivist made me a trick.
It appeared that by convening a
special meeting of at least two Cabinet members – in this case
Arens and Sharir – it was possible
to extend indefinitely the classified status of any archived
document by arguing that disclosure
might endanger state security. The meeting was duly convened and
the document was
reclassified (…)’

But Yitzhaki kept the testimonies. The first case he presents
happened in Tel Gezer. A soldier of
the the Kiryati Brigade (…) testifies that his colleagues got
hold of ten Arab men and two Arab
women, a young one and and an old one. All the men were murdered.
The young woman was
raped and her destiny was unknown. The old woman was murdered.
Yitzhaki tells that he
discovered the testimony in a specific folder containing
testimonies from Guard Units (Kheil
Mishmar) in the IDF archives. Later he also obtained an oral
testimony about this event from a
person who wished to remain anonymous.

Another case happened in Ashdod. Towards the end of August 1948,
the Giv’ati Brigade
executed the ‘Cleansing Campaign’ (Mivtza Nikayon) in Ashdod’s
dunes. This happened after the
forced landing of an Israeli plane in the area and the killing of
his eight passengers by locals. A
company of mounted cavalry, jeeps and Giv’ati fighters went to
comb the area. In the course of
this action, and according to a conservative estimate, ten
farmers (‘fellahin’) were murdered.
Yitzahki says that evidence about that can be found in the
campaign chronicle of Giv’ati in the IDF
archives and in the second chapter of the book on the Giv’ati
Brigade.

‘Apart from these cases’, says Yitzhaki, ‘there are more cases
described in IDF’s archives, but I
don’t want to disclose them at this stage. I will yet write a
book.’

The historian Uri Milstein presented in his book series ‘The
History of the War of Independence’ a
number of massacres. Three more cases came to his knowledge after
he finished writing. One
case happened in Ayn Zaytoon. According to Milstein two massacres
happened there in addition
to the case described by Netiva Ben Yehuda in her book ‘Within
the Bounds’ (mibe’ad la’avutot).
Milstein possesses a testimony from a soldier named Aharon
Yo’eli: ‘Three men from Safad
came to Ayn Zaytoon, they took 23 Arabs, told them they were
murderers and gangsters, took
>from them their watches and put them in their pockets, led them
over the hills and killed them. This
was the revenge of the Jews of Safad. I understood that our
commanders were looking for
additional killers to execute such jobs. Not everybody in Safad
was a hassid [strictly observing
Jew]. In my opinion this was not the execution of prisoners but
the killing of Arab murderers. The
rest were expelled in the direction of the Germak that same
evening and to make them go fast,
we shot at them.’ The second case was reported to Milstein by a
soldier named Yitzhak Golan, as
he referred to thirty prisoners who were brought to interrogation
in Har Kna’an: ‘The men of the
Intelligence Unit interrogated them and after the interrogation
the question came up what to do
with them. We were told to take them down to the Rosh Pina police
station. On the way they
attempted to escape so we shot at them. There was no alternative.
The danger was that they
might reach Safad and would tell there how few weapons and
manpower we had. It is possible
that they were killed chained. Next morning a plattoon was sent
to bury them’.

Another case happened in Caesarea. In February 1948 the Fourth
Batallion of the Palmach
forces, under the command of Josef Tabenkin (8), conquered
Caesarea. According to Milstein,
all those who did not escape from the village were killed.
Milstein gleaned testimonies about this
fact from fighters who participated in the conquest.

A member of Kibbutz Be’eri, who was assigned to the the Guard
Milices for a short time, reveals
another unpublished case about the murder of an Arab soldier: ‘We
were in the strong point in the
Wadi Ara area, near Giv’at Ada. Not far away was a post of
Palestinians who fired from time to
time at us. One night we raided their post and brought back a
prisoner for interrogation. One of
the soldiers of the Guard Milices took the prisoner after
interrogation, beheaded him and with a
knife scalped the head. No one present tried to stop him. He then
tied the skin to a high pole
facing the Palestinian post to inspire a deadly fear among the
Palestinians. This soldier was later
brought to the batallion commander for trial.’

On 20 May 1948 the Karmeli Brigade conquered the village Kabri.
Dov Yirmiya, who was a
company commander in the 21th batallion, tells: ‘Kabri was
conquered without a fight. Almost all
inhabitants fled. One of the soldiers, Yehuda Reshef, who was
together with his brother among the
few rescapees from the Yehi’am convoy, got hold of a few
youngsters who did not escape,
probably seven, ordered them to fill up some ditches digged as an
obstacle and then lined them
up and fired at them with a machine gun. A few died but some of
the wounded succeeded to
escape. The batallion commander did not react. Reshef was a brave
fighter and as a rescapee
>from the Yehi’am convoy, enjoyed special status in the batallion.
He advanced later to the grade of
Brigadier General. He justified his action as an act of revenge.’

‘When the action ended, we left, namely the batallion commander
Dov Tschitchiss, Education
Officer Tzadok Eshel, the driver and myself. We drove over fields
to Nahariya. While driving we
saw refugees escaping to the North. The batallion commander
ordered the driver to stop and
went with the driver and the Education Officer to chase an Arab
who was escaping with a girl
eight or nine years old. I heard shots and had scarcely the time
to understand what happened.
When they returned, the batallion commander declared: We killed
them. I asked: The girl too?
And he answered to me: No, no, we did not kill the girl’.

The Education Officer, Tzadok Eshel, has already forgotten about
the episode. ‘In our Carmeli
Brigade’, he said, ‘we did not commit massacres. I can tell you
about the massacre that the IZL
people did in Haifa. It was typical for the IZL and the LEHI, not
to us. It was totally outside our way
of thinking. There was the case of an officer who wanted to loot
a village but they did not allow
him.’ After hearing the testimony of Yermiya, Eshel changed his
version: ‘Did I tell you about this
case, no?…Probably I forgot…Yes, there was in fact one case
where we drove in a jeep and an
officer, I don’t remember who, but I don’t think it was the
batallion commander, wanted to shoot
down an Arab with a girl. I told him that if he will fire at
them, I will shoot at him. When we returned
to the jeep I felt good that I succeeded to stop such a thing.’ –
Yirmiya, in his testomony mentions
[however] shots’, -‘I don’t at all remember that I was in the
jeep. I was in the area. I tell you, you
better leave these things. There were no such things.’

Notes by Elias Davidsson

(1) Lydda: An Arabic town between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
Most of its inhabitants
were expelled in 1948 under written orders by Yitzhak Rabin.

(2) Palmach: Shock troups of the Labour-controlled Hagana
forces.

(3) IDF: Israel Defense Forces.

(4) The War of Independence is the name given by Zionists.
The Palestinian Arab call
this war the Naqba (The Tragedy). Less loaded names might be
The First
Zionist-Palestinian War, or the War of 1947-1948.

(5) Eretz Yisrael: The Hebrew name for the area of Mandatory
Palestine (from the
Jordan to the Mediterranean sea).

(6) One of the most potent lies, disseminated in the whole
world, was that the
Palestinian Arabs left their homes under explicite orders by
Arab leaders outside
Palestine. There is no evidence for this claim, but it has
served Israel very well for at
least 15 years after its establishment, especially in the
West.

(7) Yishuv: Jewish society in Mandatory Palestine.

(8) One of the leadesr of the leftist Zionist Ahdut Avoda
movement.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 11:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 40854 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Amazing events in history
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:51:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 03 1:52:41 AM CDT 1996
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The Jewish Agency Murders Jewish Refugees

If there is any doubt that Zionists were prepared to collaborate
with Nazism, and that they always
put their aim for a Jewish state before the survival of the Jews,
let us remember that it is on the
public record that the Zionist ‘Haganah’, the Jewish defence
force in Palestine, not only joined the
Gestapo in organising forced emigration of Jews from Germany to
Palestine, but also did its
share of directly murdering Jews, when this proved unsuccessful.

Let us examine the case of the S.S. Patria, full of Jewish
refugees from Hitler, which was blown up
on November 25, 1940 [off the coast of Palestine] supposedly in a
mass suicide protest against
the British decision to transfer them to Mauritius instead of
admitting them to Palestine.

On the 18th anniversary of their deaths, the Zionist leader
Sharett together with Ben Gurion
declared that they were martyrs to the cause and admitted
complicity saying ‘It is sometimes
necessary to sacrifice a few in order to save the many’
(Shonfeld, Holocaust Victims Accuse,
p.62)

Later the memoirs of Herzl Rosenblum, a member of the Central
Zionist leadership, the so-called
‘Small Action Committee’, were published:

A session of the Small Actions Committee, of which I was a
member, met in Jerusalem. At the
table opposite me sat the commander of the Patria project, A.
Golamb, Haganah spokesman
in the Zionist shadow cabinet. When my turn came to speak, I rose
and told the meeting openly
everything I thought about this act; namely, that this was not a
blow against England, but an
irresponsible, aimless mass-murder of Jews who had been saved
>from the European
catastrophe. I added that if any of us believed that we had to
fight the British by committing
hara-kiri, let him commit hara-kiri, for hara-kiri is suicide and
not an act of murder. I stated
plainly that this road was open to Mr. Golamb, but that he could
not sacrifice other Jews for his
policy without first asking them, and particularly the children
among them – a crime which I
openly protested. At this point Mr. Golamb jumped up and attacked
me with his fists. But the
people next to him at the table held him back. I must add that
Mr. Golamb’s fists, which I will
never forget, did not annoy me as much as the servility of all
the committee members, none of
whom supported. me.” (ibid., p.62)

As Rabbi Shonfeld comments, this incident:

Served on a small scale as a tragic symbol of what the Zionists
did to tens of thousands, in
accordance with their rule that says: the merit to be saved
belongs to a Jew only when in Eretz
Yisroel, and if that is impossible, it is better that his death
and great suffering be joined to the
building of the future state.” (ibid., p. 63)

(excerpted from Nazi-Zionist Collaboration, pamphlet issued by
BAZO-PS – British Anti-Zionist
Organisation/Palestine Solidarity, London, 1981)

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 11:09:31 PDT 1996
Article: 40855 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: And a little more
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:58:09 GMT
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ZIONIST ANTI-SEMITISM

By Les Levidow, publ. in RETURN (London), Dec.
1990

Zionism has always purported to be the prime or ultimate
protector of Jews from anti-Semitism.
The proposed solution has been mass emigration to what the
Zionist’s term Eretz Israel, (‘the
Land of Israel’), a term which means possession of the region for
the Jews; this territorial notion
corresponds to Biblical myths rather than to any clear
geographical boundaries. The emigration
itself has been termed aliyah (‘ascent’). The term originally
described Jews’ pilgrimage to
Palestine as a duty of Orthodox Judaism. Zionism appropriated the
term for secular-settler
purposes: through Aliyah, Diaspora Jews, regarded as mere ‘human
dust’ elevate themselves to
the status of human beings. As Israeli citizens, the Jews claim
their rightful place as ‘nation among
(European) nations’.

Many critics have shown how advocacy of this solution has
undermined any struggle against
anti-Semitism. Some critics have even shown how Zionist leaders
have collaborated with
anti-Semitic persecutors for the sake of that aliyah (as in Nazi
Germany), or for the sake of Israel’s
arms sales (as during the Argentinean junta).

This essay takes the argument further, to the cultural field, by
arguing that the Zionist mission
involved suppressing or denying all Jewish identities other than
the ‘New Jew’ who conquers
Palestine.

In practice, this has meant that:

* Zionist culture ‘assimilated’ European anti-Semitism from the
very start;

* the State of Israel eventually extended that discrimination to
Oriental Jews, seen as a
Jewish-Arab (or ‘Levantine’) threat, within a wider framework of
Western colonial racism;

* the anti-Arab racism endemic to Zionism incorporates aspects of
European anti-Semitism; and

* Zionist paranoia towards Palestinians expresses internal
anxieties about the disintegration of
Jewish identities which Zionism itself has helped to destroy.

‘Assimilating’ anti-Semitism

As largely or potentially assimilated Jews, the early Zionists of
Western Europe came to doubt the
possibility – or even desirability – of their full assimilation,
as they encountered prejudice and
barriers. They came to accept anti-Semitic racial concepts of the
Jews as inherently incapable of
integrating into the Western nations as full citizens. This
fatalism was expressed by doctor Leo
Pinsker, with a suitable medical metaphor, when he declared that
‘Judeo-phobia is a disease;
and, as a congenital disease, it is incurable’ (in Hertzberg,
1966).

Early Zionists also accepted – implicitly or explicitly –
prevalent stereotypes of backwards and/or
subversive East European Jews, whose migration to Western Europe
(or the USA) they regarded
as a threat to their own hard-won social status. This perceived
threat acted as a motive for affluent
Jews in Western Europe to channel the migration of East European
Jews elsewhere. Moreover,
many Zionists perceived their own interests as coinciding with
the domestic interests of Europe’s
imperial rulers. When Theodor Herzl lobbied the Tsar’s Minister
of Interior, who had been
responsible for anti-Semitic pogroms, Herzl argued that Zionism
would weaken the revolutionary
movement in Russia.

At the same time, Zionists justified themselves in terms of
uplifting the backward East European
Jews. Moses Hess, describing the economic structure of East
European Jewry as ‘parasitic’,
described the future Jewish state as ‘the basis on which European
Jewry will be able to climb out
of the dustbins’ (quoted in Halevi, p.153). The alliance which
Zionism sought with European
imperialism arose from the cultural chasm which they perceived
between Western and Eastern
Jews.

Indeed, locating their solution in a Jewish state based on
European models, Zionist leaders
regarded the Eastern European Jews’ culture as an obstacle. David
Ben-Gurion referred
disparagingly to their ‘Diaspora mentality’ and ‘Jewish
cosmopolitanism’. With the rise of fascism
in the 1930s, the term ‘cruel Zionism’ described those who
justified sacrificing the many –
especially East European Jews – for the sake of the few who would
establish a Jewish state.
Chaim Weizmann (1937) promoted such a mentality with his poetic
flair:

The old ones will pass; they will bear their fate, or they will
not. They were dust, economic and
moral dust in a cruel world…

Thus, although Zionism arose in response to anti-Semitism, it did
so by assimilating crucial
elements of anti-Semitism, while appropriating the religious
connotations of ‘human dust’ in racist
terms.

Zionism defined a secular Jewishness negatively, in terms of the
Jews’ eternal
persecution by anti-Semitism, seen as the world’s main evil, and
eventually epitomised
by the Arabs. Just as this ideology saw anti-Semitism as a
normal, expected reaction to
the presence of Jews out of place in the Diaspora, so it saw the
Jewish state as fulfilling
the normal division of the world’s territorial spaces according
to ethnically defined
national groups. [Emphasis – E.D.] Moreover, it incorporated
anti-Semitic myths of the Jews as
defined by race or language, and turned these into counter-myths
defining the Jewish nation that
needed to be built (see Halevi, chapters 5-6).

Within this framework, racist distinctions among Jews were
extended into Palestine itself, where
the Zionist movement sought to replace immigrants’ Yiddish
culture with a literally fabricated one.
As Amos Oz [Israeli author] describes the state’s acculturation
mission:

Even new lullabies and new ‘ancient legends’ which were
synthesised by eager writers…Folk
song and dances that require the officially trained guides
who…. are teaching the folk how to
sing and dance properly! (translated in Bresheeth, p.130

Jewish Arab threat

Shortly after the state of Israel was created, the task of
Zionising European immigrants became
overshadowed by the ‘problem’ of the Oriental Jews. Nearly two
million Israelis, who now
constitute a majority of the country’s population, were
culturally Arabs in all but religion; indeed,
they were Arab Jews in all but name. The Zionist project
necessarily fractured that reality into two
opposed identities – Arab versus Jew. It likewise identified Jew
with Zionist, in turn meaning the
assimilated Ashkenazi European type of Jew.

When the Israeli government realised in the early 1950s that few
Jews would emigrate from
Western countries, it resorted to inducing Oriental Jews to do
so. It then used them to populate
dangerous settlements along cease-fire lines to consolidate
Israel’s claims to the disputed
territory, and it assigned them to the low-paid, menial jobs
otherwise done by Palestinians. By
engineering this physical and economic conflict between Oriental
Jews and Palestinians, Israel
manufactured the former’s anti-Arab feeling, which Zionism
officially attributed to the persecution
that most Oriental Jews had supposedly suffered in Arab
countries.

Although the mass emigration of Oriental Jews served several
Zionist purposes, the Ashkenazi
establishment saw it as a potential cultural threat. Israeli
publications have abounded with racist
language – animal metaphors, ‘savages’, ‘superstitious’,
‘diseased’, etc. – describing the Oriental
Jews. Official Israeli language bans the Yiddish term ‘Schwartze’
commonly used in conversation
to disparage Oriental Jews as ‘blacks’. Yet the official
euphemism for them, Jewish ‘people of
African and Asian origin’, excludes South African Jews, who are
instead categorised along with
Jewish ‘people of European and American origin’ (Halevi, p.207).
That anomaly reveals the racial,
rather than geographical, basis for the Zionist categorisation of
Jews. Halevi further notes the
irony that Israel denounces its Jewish critics as ‘self-hating’
yet attempts to integrate the Arab
Jews through a ‘system of ideological control and cultural
domination wholly built on the self-denial
of Arab Judaism, and on a colonial-style mass psychology’
(p.220).

The Ashkenazi perception of internal threat has been insightfully
analysed by Ella Shohat (1988).
She quotes Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, whose 1964 book
described the Oriental Jews as
lacking ‘the most elementary knowledge’, ‘without a trace of
Jewish or human education’.
Similarly, Abba Eban warned that Israel must infuse them ‘with an
Occidental spirit, rather than
allow them to drag us into an unnatural Orientalism’.

Shohat describes the Zionist project of turning the Oriental Jews
into true Ashkenazi Israelis: By
distinguishing the ‘evil East’ (the Moslem Arab) from the ‘good’
East (the Jewish Arab), Israel has
taken it upon itself to ‘cleanse’ the Orientals of their
Arab-ness and redeem them from the ‘primal
sin’ of belonging to the Orient. (pp.7-8). Despite official
proclamations about Jews as ‘one
people’, the Orientals’ different culture “threatens the European
ideal-ego which phantasises
Israel as a prolongation of Europe ‘in’ the Middle East but not
‘of’ it. (p.23).

The grand project of assimilation has succeeded in constructing a
putatively eternal antagonism
between Arab versus Jew, particularly erasing the memory of the
original Palestinian Jews.
Likewise it has generated a syndrome of self-hating Oriental
Jews, who can win acceptance only
by disavowing their previous cultural identity. For them, Shohat
argues, “existence under Zionism
has meant a profound and visceral schizophrenia, mingling
stubborn self-pride with an imposed
self-rejection, typical products of a situation of colonial
ambivalence…In fact, Arab-hatred, when it
occurs among Oriental Jews, is almost always a disguised form of
self-hatred.” (p.25)

Thus their resentment against Palestinians expresses an
internalised Western racism. When
some Orientals formed the Black Panthers in 1970-1 and declared
their solidarity with the PLO,
the Israeli government attacked the movement as an expression of
‘neurosis’ or ‘maladjustment’.
That is, precisely when Oriental Jews attempted to overcome the
psychopathology induced by
Zionist anti-Semitism, their attempt was labelled pathological
and suppressed.

Eventually their resentment became decisive in Israeli politics.
Having been treated as
second-class citizens by the Histadrut (Israel’s second largest
employer doubling as a ‘labour
movement’), Oriental Jews directed their hatred against
‘socialism’ and the Labour Party in
particular, to the point of largely voting for Likud alignment in
the 1977 election. Although Oriental
Jews apparently support harsher measures against the
Palestinians, the repressive vanguard
among the army and settlers has always had an Ashkenazi
leadership. While colluding with the
latter, the Labour Party (and others) conveniently blame the
‘backward’ Oriental Jews as a major
obstacle to peace.

As Shohat argues, this blaming “has the advantage of placing the
elite protesters in the
narcissistic posture of perpetual seekers after peace”, who must
bear the hostility of the
government, the right wing, the Oriental Jews and recalcitrant
Palestinians. In that way, even the
most enlightened Ashkenazi Zionism can absolve itself by blaming
less civilised Semitic peoples
for perpetuating irrational conflicts. At the same time, Zionism
conceals the institutional racism
which engendered that conflict.

Palestinians as persecutors

Zionism often portrays the Palestinians as agents of an
international Arab conspiracy dedicated
to destroying Israel. This mentality can be understood by analogy
to other colonial episodes in
which the colonisers experienced the colonised as persecutors. In
the case of Zionism, Haim
Bresheeth (1989) describes how the social identity of the ‘New
Jew’ was created in the image of
the European neo-colonialist model, except that Palestine’s
original inhabitants (if acknowledged
to exist at all) were to be expelled rather than merely
exploited.

Moreover, Zionist paranoia bears parallels to European
anti-Semitism, in two senses.
Palestinians are almost racially defined as anti-Jewish, as
persecuted German Jews were
labelled ‘anti-German’. And their anticipated attacks on Jews
help displace subconscious guilt
about Israeli pogroms committed against Palestinians.

This displacement or projection of persecution can be seen in the
portrayal of Arabs in
Hebrew-language children’s literature, as analysed by Fouzi
al-Asmar (1986). In these stories
Israelis face a mortal threat from Arabs who vent a racial hatred
for the Jews, as a result of being
incited by agitators sent by Arab governments. Of course such
fictional Arab characters make no
distinction between Jews and Israelis. Somehow the State of
Israel always escapes imminent
annihilation because the irrational Arabs lack effective
organisation, and because Israeli
supermen-soldiers (or even children) heroically protect the
country from the threat. Despite such
reassurance, the threat should be considered paranoid by virtue
of projecting aggression and
potential guilt upon the Arabs, as well as containing anxieties
about the Israelis’ national identity.

El-Asmar observes a change in demonological terminology according
to the period being
described. In these stories, pre-1948 Arabs are portrayed as
mainly nomadic Bedouins with no
particular attachment to Palestine; other Arabs, likewise
primitive, diseased and dirty, are often
thieves and murderers. The Arab-Israeli conflict arises only
because Arabs refused to live in
peace with Jews; given their refusal and subsequent (unexplained)
‘flight’, they lack grounds for
claiming Palestine as a homeland.

After the 1948 war and the establishment of the state of Israel,
Arabs are portrayed as fedayin
‘infiltrators’ – in a period when many of the million expelled
Palestinians attempted to harvest their
crops or reclaim other abandoned property. After the 1967 war,
Arabs are portrayed as
‘saboteurs’ – in a period when Israel sabotaged Palestinian
agriculture in the Occupied Territories
through an array of legal restrictions. After the 1973 war,
Palestinian characters became
‘terrorists’ operating world-wide.

In all cases, this children’s literature portrays Arab attacks as
seeking only to raid, steal and kill.
Apparently they are motivated by jealousy against Jews who have
brought ‘human standards’ and
modern prosperity to the Land of Israel. A ‘good Arab’ character
is portrayed as lamenting that
“these Jews came to a desert and they made out of it a paradise,
and here we come and convert
that paradise into a desert” (p.70). This portrayal lends
legitimation to any Israeli measures taken
against Palestinians. Thus systematic Zionist expropriation and
killing is concealed or justified by
attributing the real barbarity to its victims.

While the Israeli characters ultimately triumph in these
children’s stories, the omnipotence fantasy
becomes somewhat dented by the 1973 war. In one story a child is
taking cover from a MIG
bombing. He hears a terrible noise “as if I were a loyal grain
ground between huge millstones, as
if the land is trembling under me and I will soon fall into a
deep and black pit” (p.119).

In that fantasy of being reduced to nothingness, the child
expresses a widespread ‘victim
complex’, whereby Israelis imagine themselves as facing a
perpetual threat of annihilation, from
which they are saved by superior moral character and/or military
defence. The fantasy serves at
least two crucial functions. It displaces subconscious guilt
about the persecution of Palestinians;
and it externalises the internal threat to Jewish identity by the
Zionist project itself. The
displacement involves a psychic continuum, in which anxiety over
social identity is experienced as
a threat to one’s physical existence – “falling into a deep and
black pit”. The unavoidable anxiety
arises in turn from Israel’s failed attempt to replace a
religious Jewish identity with a secular
Jewish culture (as analysed by Akiva Orr in The unJewish State).

Having constructed the ‘New Jew’ as the born-again goy,
Hebrew-speaking gentile, Zionist has
further constructed the Palestinian Arab on the stereotypical
model of the European Jew. Even a
humanist, left-Zionist writer like Amos Oz (1983, pp.157, 164)
found himself likening the office of
Al-Fajr [a Palestinian East-Jerusalem newspaper – E.D.] to that
of an Eastern European Yiddish
newspaper. And in all seriousness he saw the paper as a sinister
front for an anti-Zionist, Islamic,
Soviet Communist conspiracy. Thus Arabs are despised not simply
as the enemy ‘other’, but as a
reminder of a hated and abandoned Jewish identity, ‘the suffering
Jew’. Moreover, European
anti-Semitic conspiracy theories find their counterpart in
Israeli fears of Palestinians: the
persecuted are experienced as the persecutors.

Projecting Zionist anti-Semitism

A Jewish Israeli academic, educationalist Dr. Adit Cohen
(Ha’aretz, 30.6.76) once warned about
this racist portrayal of Arabs as “it was in this way that the
image of the Jew was presented in
anti-Semitic Christian literature” (quoted in El-Asmar, p.125).
Certainly an historical parallel can
been drawn between Zionist paranoia and its anti-Semitic
antecedents. As capitalist market
relations destroy autonomous cultural identities, “people begin
not to know who they are” (Kovel,
p.238). As a psychic defence against this threat, modern racism
must go further than to project
onto the victim; to protect the self from annihilation, this
racism tends towards physically removing
or destroying the victim.

Given that the Holocaust and then Israel served to destroy
‘Diaspora’ Jewish identities, in favour
of the New Jew, the Palestinians came to represent a psychic
threat to the very existence of
Jews. “We were better off in the ghetto, where we knew who we
were” laments a semi-fictional
character of novelist Simon Louvish (1985, p.144). That wistful
nostalgia, apparently innocuous,
provides a way into understanding the persistent demonising of
Palestinians as an external threat
to Jewish existence, whose Jewish cultural basis has been
suppressed by Zionist nationalism
itself.

In conclusion, then, Zionism attempted to substitute a European
nationalism for the traditional
religious basis of Jewish identity, as well as for the diverse
‘Diaspora’ cultures which European
racism denigrated. While claiming to protect Jews from
anti-Semitism, Zionism actually
undermined the basis for any coherent Jewish identity, while
attributing the threat entirely to
external enemies of the Jews. Thus, through a self-perpetuating
illogic, Zionism presents itself as
the only saviour from a malaise which it brought about and
sustains.

References

* Bresheeth, H. (1989). Self and Other in Zionism. Palestine
and Israel in recent
Hebrew literature, in Khamsin, 14/15. Palestine: Profile of
an Occupation,
London, Zed Books, pp. 120-52

* El-Asmar, F. (1986). Through the Hebrew Looking-Glass:
Arab Stereotypes in
Children’s Literature, London, Zed Books

* Halevi, I. (1987): A History of the Jews, London, Zed
Books

* Hertzberg, A. (1966). The Zionist Idea: A Historical
Analysis and Reader. New
York, Atheneum; includes a reprint of Leo Pinsker,
Auto-emancipation

* Kovel, J. (1983). Marx on the Jewish Question. Dialectical
Anthropology 8: 31-46;
reprinted in Joel Kovel, The Radical Spirit: Essays on
Psychoanalysis and
Society, London, Free Association Books, 1988, pp.226-50

* Louvish, S. (1985) The Therapy of Avram Blok. London,
Heinemann.

* Orr, A. (1983). The unJewish State: The Politics of Jewish
Identity in Israel.
London, Ithaca Press

* Oz, A. (1983). The Dawn. In the Land of Israel. London,
Fontana

* Shohat, E. (1988). Sephardim in Israel: Zionism from the
standpoint of its
Jewish victims. Social Text 19/20: 1-36; available from P.O.
Box 1474, Old
Chelsea Station, New York, NY 10011.

* Weizmann, C. (1937) Dr. Weizmann’s Political Address –
20th Zionist
Congress, New Judea, August, p.215

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 11:09:32 PDT 1996
Article: 40858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cosmic Slop
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:44:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 03 3:45:19 AM CDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >CHUCK FERREE WRITES:
>>
>> >GIWER, I RESENT THIS KIND OF SICK SO-CALLED HUMOR. KNOCK IT OFF!

>> Excuse me but if you do not like one of the best series HBO has
>> ever produced then tak it up with them, not me.

>What series?

Cosmic Slop of course. Take it up with HBO.

And so what. TV is one thing, posting this shit as you
>intended…to start another pissing contest is in bad taste, and you
>proved to me what all the others have been saying all along. You are
>nothing but a dumbshit troller. I didn’t say that before, but I
>believe it now. Stick with the fucking subject, or change channels!

Did you ever ask yourself why Nizkor is NOT logging your posts as
a great defender of the Holocaust?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 12:17:22 PDT 1996
Article: 40862 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Civil Defense Engineer (was Re: Ehrlich)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> >>>> > Now that
>> >>>> >too is interesting in that since when did bomb shelters have doors that
>> >>>> >could be opened (and closed) _only_ from the OUTSIDE? That this was the
>> >>>> >case becomes quite apparrant from Henryk Tauber’s accoutn of Krema II,
>> >>>> >where he describes the door to L.Keller 1:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Overpressure would blow the door inward. Thus the entire
>> >>>> perimeter of the door prevents it from being blown into the room.
>> >>>> If closed from the inside only the hinges and the latch would
>> >>>> prevent that.

>Indeed it would. One would then expect a bomb shelter to be desinged with
>a stout door capable of withstanding such overpressures, yes? Seems like a
>pretty fundemental thing to take into accord, yes? A common practise to
>bomb shelter designers, yes?

>Interesting then that the Bauleitung drawing 932 shows L.Keller 1 equipped
>with DOUBLE doors opening INTO the L.Keller (_Technique_, pp.284-85).
>This, of course would mean that the doors, according Giwer, could hardly
>be for a bomb shelter as they would be structurally weak. Oc course, doors
>that opened inwards would also be a problem because of the bodies of the
>victims that would have inevitably piled up against them, thus blocking
>them from opening.

Fascinating. Now I have to deal with both double doors opening
into and a single door opening outward held closed with two iron
bars and screws at the same time. But they are both truly true
at the same time.

Read the fucking newsgroup and correct the person who posted the
iron bar story first. Then get back to me.

When in the hell are you folks going to get together and come up
with one single truth?

Do you folks not realize these conflicting truths only contribute
your to claims being viewed as bullshit?

>Evidently, Dejaco recognized this problem with the bodies blocking the
>doors, and in Bauleitung drawing 2003 he drew the DOUBLE doors opening
>OUTWARDS from L.Keller 1. (_Technique_, pp.302-303.). One problem with
>this was the doors were still DOUBLE doors, which if they were for a bomb
>shelter, would still be structurally weak. Double doors are also harder to
>make gas-tight than a single door. Recognizing this the single gas-tight
>door was then later substituted.

Even more interesting. First a single outward door, then a
double inward and now a double outward door. But finally we get
the kind of door that was always the case from the beginning
until the truth started changing. This is good to read.

So here we have extensive documentation on changes in the kind of
door(s) and yet only a couple of ott the wall references to any
gassing.

In light of this kind of documentation it is most amazing folks
can not come up with elaborate directions as to the quantity of
Zyklon-B to use by room size and number of people and death time
desired. You folks seem to have everything but that.

>Now, if Giwer is still squawking about overpressure protection, I suggest
>he focus his meager attention on the fact that the roof of his “bomb
>shelter” had four 70 cm x 70 cm holes in it that opened directly into
>L.Keller 1.

I would focus your attention on the size being different for
everyone who posts. The one I was responding to claimed some 30
cm square. Yours are much larger. But in this regard you are
still insisting upon gastight doors with four holes this size.
You appear to think you have no problem with a gas chamber with
the large holes you are claiming existed.

We can also go back to the pictures that have been posted here
and find the dark patches are at least 10 feet on the smallest
side.

>[snip]

Must have been something you can’t deal with there.

>> I have only stated that there is ZERO evidence for this iron bar
>> and screws claim and nothing other.

>On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence, as the gas-tight door of the
>Kanada I delousing chamber was nearly identical in design (_Technique_, p.
>46).

You have only a secondary reference. It is unclear why anyone
would use such a cumbersome method when it is completely
unnecessary. You want a “gas tight” delousing chamber door? You
use the simple things that were used at the time to keep drafts
out in winter. That is a strip of springy sheet metal (it was
copper colored) around the sides of the door and the outer edge
of that covered in felt. It was very old hat in the 40s.

But no, your author wants iron bars and screws for simple
delousing chambers and KNOWS that would not produce an air tight
seal. And you believe him.

>The only difference was that the doors to the homicidal gas chambers
>were equiped with a wire grid “basket” on the gas-chamber side of the
>peep-hole to prevent the victims from shattering the glass in the
>peep-hole with their hands. The delousing gas chamber doors didn’t have
>this handy little feature.

>Obviously then the door was functional gas-tight door for a gas chamber.
>The wire grid on the inside indicates it was for a homicidal gas chamber.

Of course gas tight was required with the four huge hole for gas
to escape. But you continue to appear to think you have a point
here.

>> As you know, the claim is that the door was found in a trash dump 200 feet
>> away.

>Of course, Giwer, as usual, is wrong. The gas-tight door which belonged to
>one of the homicidal gas chambers was found in the Auschwitz Bauhof
>(builder’s yard) for new and refurbished materials. (_Technique_, p.486.)

Excuse me. You are claiming the building was dynamited and the
door was returned to the manufacturer before dynamiting it? You
and your author are very strange people.

>Given Giwer’s absolute ignorance regarding the construction of the Kremas
>and L.Kellers, and his intentional provocations committed based on his
>ignorance in spite of the fact that he has been repeatedly informed about
>his ignorance and refuses to rectify it, I cannot but conclude that:

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in
>causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied
>about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
>refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
>documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
>him), engaged in actual libel, anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

What you can’t deal with, you use your good luck mantra against.
Wards off evil thoughts so to speak.
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 14:54:26 PDT 1996
Article: 40883 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Proof is for Goyim
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:29:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote:

>>>>You claims that Al Gentile is a
>>>>Righteous Gentile have so far not been validated. His claims to have
>>>>worked in the Nuremburg trials has not been substantiated and we can’t
>>>>yet place him where he says he was. Until we can do this, we can move
>>>>on to the specifics of his “testimony.” It appears that Su doesn’t
>>>>give his “testimony” much credence. Do you, Su?

>>>Absolutely not. If he had ever been at Nuremburg, I would have known
>>>about it years before he ever BBS’d.

>>>In fact, he would not have shut up about it.

>> Nor in the posts were they any claims of having been at
>>Nuremberg.

>He claimed to be part of the investigative team. He claimed to be in
>England investigating. His wording was such that one was never sure
>where he was. Stop the promotion of other people’s lies Giwer and
>admit you have been used and used badly. You don’t have to admit to
>tried this gambit three years ago or so on Compuserve. It didn’t work
>then and it really doesn’t wash any more. It’s dead. Drop the damn
>thing.

Your conclusions in absense of support for them are duly noted.
Or were you claiming to have been on CI$ three years ago? Name
the forum while you are at it.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 40902 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Andersonville vs. the Death Camps
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 20:49:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>> Then we are agreed you misrepresented the oath taken by witnesses
>> in Pennsylvania.

> I didn’t. Your basis for so stating seems to be that you watched the
>O.J. trial.

Not me. However, you have stated that in Pennsylvania a witness
swears, “The evidence I am about to give … etc.” Or was that
someone else trying to make the claim the testimony is evidence?

>> We are also agreed you lied when you claimed you spoke to a
>> patent attorney regarding what I said about patents IF you showed
>> him my messages. But if you gave him your personal lie about
>> what I said you may be correct that he laughed. But you should
>> realize that it was at you rather than at me.

> I have his name. Give him a call. I “read” him your statement. He
>laughed at it.

Obviously not much of a patent attorney.

> You are, and, remain a basically dishonest person who by your outright
>lies in this post proves your basic thesis. It is heartwarming to note that your latest
>post was apaprently designed as an effort to demonstrate your agreement that all
>you are interested in is mindless character assassination.

Just what did you say the witness oath was?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:56:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 1:57:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I’m sorry, but you said first that Ca in bones will burn. I lost these
>>>>>posts, but as you’re recorded in Nizkor, if you will argue with this,
>>>>>we could retrieve your posts. OK ? Or perhaps the Nizkor recording is
>>>>>faked too ? In the middle-time, I will increase the time for deleting
>>>>>my records. It seems to be sometime useful.
>>>>
>>>> Of course you will continue to lie and Nizkor will continue to
>>>>keep out of context information to support the lies they want to
>>>>perpetrate. That is the way Jews and pro-Jews work as Nizkor is
>>>>demonstrating.
>>
>>> My understanding is that Nizkor keeps a complete record of all of your
>>> posts – and the complete posts of most all other regular a.r posters.
>>> In what way is this “out of context”?
>>
>> Taking out of context of the thread is taking them out of
>>context. What is it you have so great a difficulty in
>>understanding about that?
>>
>> And why, since you know better than that, would you claim they
>>are not context?
>>
>> You are clearly not that ignorant.

> Thank you, I think. OK, well you may have a point that it would be
> better if the original newsgroup were available at Nizkor with no
> article expiration ever set.

> To that end I will make you a deal Giwer. I will match you $2 for
> every dollar you contribute to Nizkor towards disk capacity which we
> will direct be used only for in context alt.revisionism feed.

> And think, you contribution just may be tax deductable too :>

You are in the excessively begging mode. You ONLY have 100 Megs
of files. A 1 Gig drive goes for under $US250. Why not use some
of the other 900Megs for the storage before you “contributors”
need to come up with $US40 each for another gig.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40912 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:39:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 2:40:42 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>So, I have to defend myself and a chemist is unskilled ?
>>
>> I have no idea if he is skilled or not. I do know he will say
>>anything to mislead people into believing something about his
>>cherished holocaust is true even though it is a clear deception.

>Mr. Giwer can present no evidence of deception on my part.

Those who cited you as the authority to claim that I was lying
know it. But of course holohuggers stick together and lie for
each other.

You know it happened. You know you read it happening without
correcting anyone. You know what you did.

You can not be an observant Jew as no observant Jew would do such
a thing. You are an atheist and therefore do not feel bound by
any of the principles that that have kept Jews together for
centuries.

You are trading off of birth to claim something you do no
deserve.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40914 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!bofh.dot!usenet.seri.re.kr!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 07:33:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 12:34:26 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Lissa Valerian <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Mr. Giwer and Mr. Huber seem to think that Anne Frank was a
>> >propaganda invention, as if anyone could predict that she would
>> >capture the hearts of the world in advance!
>>
>> What in the world makes you think it has? It is not even good
>> enough for Hollywood to have bought the movie rights. Or did I
>> miss the movie? How about the TV docudrama? The HBO special?

>Matt, you apparantly missed the show. The Diary of Anne Frank was part
>of our reading list in high school, and was shown in movie form in
>class. I’m sorry you missed out on it.

I will never argue that the story is of interest to high school
students. I was talking about adults.

But then, if you remember, who produced this docudrama? When and
on what network was the US showing of it? To be frank (little
pun there) I have never heard of it. Of course that means
nothing to you but it means quite a bit to me. I would certainly
like to add it to my collection if it is available.

>> Of one thing you can be certain of in this world, billions have
>> died and are unremembered. And another thing you can be certain
>> of, billions more will die in the future and be unremembered.
>> You can be certain this will continue until the human race
>> becomes extinct.
>>
>> Billions to one, with any luck, trillions or more to the
>> compasion you want for the one simply because it furthers your
>> idiot cause.

>Matt, if you think remembering the holocaust for what it was, the cruel
>and inhumane attempt to exterminate a people, is an “idiotic cause”, what
>does that say for your efforts to argue against it.

The cause on my side is truth, what really happened. Distortions
of history are far from uncommon. Witness Napoleonic “cults”
being outlawed in Europe in the last century as are now nazi
“cults” in this century.

I consider myself only a generation ahead of my time.

In another 20-30 years it is going to be in the noise. There is
going to be serious discussion of all of WW II including this
small part of it. It took until after WW II for a clear
admission that the Zimmerman Note was false.

It is going to take an equally long time to opening discuss that
England started WW II also.

And after that we can get around to the relatively minor matter
of the fate of internees under circumstances of losing a war and
being in full retreat.

You folks seem to have a problem with being a tail end of WW II
and want to be its primary focus.

It is quite like those who want slavery to be the primary matter
of the US War between the States rather than what it was,
Lincoln’s private war which was a matter of open discussion in
the North while it was in progress.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:19 PDT 1996
Article: 40915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!bofh.dot!usenet.seri.re.kr!bofh.dot!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is trolling?
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:33:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 02 1:34:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I see a lot of dubbing of “troller” or “trolling” out here. What
>>>>does that mean?
>>>> Hold it! Don’t just post something and say ‘Heres an example’.
>>>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.
>>
>>>I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>>>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>>>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>>>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.
>>
>>>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>>>(Somehow, I doubt it.)
>>
>> The claim of “trolling” is well understood to be a perjorative
>>and nothing more.

> Not really. Notice that it is directed in a.r for the most part only
> at Matt Giwer. Other denier and anti-semitic correspondents have
> rarely been called trolls. This is because Giwer’s MO differs from
> that of the other deniers and anti-semites.

> Trolling on usenet derives from the sense of trolling while fishing.
> It takes the form of putting one’s written “line” in the water using
> inflamatory material as “bait” and seeing what bites.

> There is discussion of trolling in appropriate FAQs available in
> news.announce.newusers. It is a matter of observation and
> extrapolation to conclude that Giwer’s behavior here amounts to
> trolling.

If you do not mind my pointing it out …

There can be no trolling if there are not brainless fish.

If I am a troller then holohuggers are fish.

You can not have one without the other.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 4 19:08:40 PDT 1996
Article: 40959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:01:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 5:02:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (tom moran) gives more anti-Semitc drivel:
>> Mr. Morris, where did you get this information? Was it some
>> Jewish source? They have an extensive history of degrading Catholics.

> Try Newsweek magazine, Moron.

It is good to hear that anything Newsweek publishes is completely
true.

I hope you will not mind my remembering this for later.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 4 19:08:42 PDT 1996
Article: 40963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keeping files on Jews
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 19:56:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 2:58:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My preoccupation? When it is included with every recitation of
>>the mantra it would appear others are in fact obsessed with them.
>>I merely mention it as nazi-like on occasion. But then perhaps I
>>can start a site that keeps track of Jews just to test what it
>>will be called.

> I already know of a computerized data repository keeping track of
>Jews. I call it a synagogue office.

You mean they make a permanent record of everything they say for
public consumption?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 4 19:08:43 PDT 1996
Article: 40966 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:04:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 4:05:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) once again demonstrates his
>inability to read:

> Pious means believing the Talmud is “theologically correct” like
> a brain dead idiot.

>I never said the Talmud was “theologically correct!” I merely
>pointed out that a particualr anti-Jewish bigot of the “Christian
>Identity” persuasion has found the Talmud not to be “theologically
>correct.” I coined the phrase “theologically correct” myself to
>point up the absurdity of the Christian Identity claims.

>So, it turns out that the “brain-dead idiot” is no other than
>Mr. Giwer himself, who cannot understand a simple English sentence
>when he reads one. He must have been trying to chew gum while he
>was reading!

Of course.

> There is no god, fool. Not even any of the seven
> gods of Israel.

>”The seven gods of Israel!” What metaphysical mumbo-jumbo is
>Mr. Giwer quoting now?

Archaeology of course. That is a science. Therefore you are
expected to know nothing about it.

Next, he will claim that the ignorance that
>spawned this last statement makes him a better authority on Judaism
>than Moses.

There is no evidence there ever was a Moses, or that the Hebrews
were ever in Egypt. But you know that. And you also know that
single idols containing all seven gods have been found all over
the old Israel. These idols include Yahweh God and his consort,
Astarte Goddess.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 4 20:25:24 PDT 1996
Article: 40977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: World conquest revisitied
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:12:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 5:14:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

It appears the SWC does not believe the “world conquest”
nonsense.

28. What was Hitler’s ultimate goal in launching World War II?

Answer: Hitler’s ultimate goal in launching World War II was
the establishment of an Aryan
empire from Germany to the Urals. He considered this area
the natural territory of the
German people, an area to which they were entitled by right,
the Lebensraum (living space)
that Germany needed so badly for its farmers to have enough
soil. Hitler maintained that
these areas were needed for the Aryan race to preserve
itself and assure its dominance.

There is no question that Hitler knew that, by launching the
war in the East, the Nazis would
be forced to deal with serious racial problems in view of
the composition of the population
in the Eastern areas. Thus, the Nazis had detailed plans for
the subjugation of the Slavs,
who would be reduced to serfdom status and whose primary
function would be to serve as
a source of cheap labor for Aryan farmers. Those elements of
the local population, who
were of higher racial stock, would be taken to Germany where
they would be raised as
Aryans.

In Hitler’s mind, the solution of the Jewish problem was
also linked to the conquest of the
eastern territories. These areas had large Jewish
populations and they would have to be
dealt with accordingly. While at this point there was still
no operative plan for mass
annihilation, it was clear to Hitler that some sort of
comprehensive solution would have to be
found. There was also talk of establishing a Jewish
reservation either in Madagascar or
near Lublin, Poland. When he made the decisive decision to
invade the Soviet Union, Hitler
also gave instructions to embark upon the “Final Solution,”
the systematic murder of
European Jewry.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 01:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40991 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ghettos?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:26:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 5:27:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

This is one of many references to ghettos under German control in
these answers.

33. How did Germany’s allies, the Japanese and the Italians,
treat the Jews in the lands
they occupied?

Answer: Neither the Italians nor the Japanese, both of whom
were Germany’s allies during
World War II, cooperated regarding the “Final Solution.”
Although the Italians did, upon
German urging, institute discriminatory legislation against
Italian Jews, Mussolini’s
government refused to participate in the “Final Solution”
and consistently refused to deport
its Jewish residents. Moreover, in their occupied areas of
France, Greece, and Yugoslavia,
the Italians protected the Jews and did not allow them to be
deported. However, when the
Germans overthrew the Badoglio government in 1943, the Jews
of Italy, as well as those
under Italian protection in occupied areas, were subject to
the “Final Solution.”

The Japanese were also relatively tolerant toward the Jews
in their country as well as in the
areas which they occupied. Despite pressure by their German
allies urging them to take
stringent measures against Jews, the Japanese refused to do
so. Refugees were allowed
to enter Japan until the spring of 1941, and Jews in
Japanese-occupied China were treated
well. In the summer and fall of 1941, refugees in Japan were
transferred to Shanghai but no
measures were taken against them until early 1943, when they
were forced to move into the
Hongkew Ghetto. While conditions were hardly satisfactory,
they were far superior to those
in the ghettos under German control.

=====

Now here was have a policy of mass extermination on one hand and
the economic burden of maintaining these ghettos on the other.

Does anyone else get the feeling there is something inconsistent
about this?
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 02:25:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fuchs Testifies About a Gassing in Sobibor
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:32:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 6:34:00 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial,
>Dusseldorf
>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 31-32].
>————————————————————–
> ….We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at
>least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation
>and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.

What is a benzine engine? Trade name or was it supposed to
operate on benzene?

>I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the
>ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The
>chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with
>measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas.

I also find it interesting that a carefully worked out plan with
all the money needed to lay tracks and construct all the
buildings needed for this enterprise but has to use a Russian
engine in need of repairs.

You would think they could have shipped them a Germany engine.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 02:25:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:48:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 7:49:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Russia had moved into a position to attack German troops and
> received nothing more than a pre-emptive strike.

>Mr. Giwer is invited to present some evidence in support of this
>contention, but, of course, he cannot.

Actually I had expected you folks would have done that for me by
now as the widest distrubtion for it was contained in an
editorial by Pat Buchanan from the then recently published
memoirs of the Russian General in charge of preparing for the
offfense. He was called a Nazi apologist for doing that. No, I
do not remember the general’s name.

>The reason is that Stalin had the bulk of Soviet troops poised for a
>defense against Japan in the far eastern portion of Russia. That is
>why Hitler scored so many early victories. Given Russia’s
>underdeveloped infrastructure, it took some time to get the troops
>from the far east to the western front, but once they got there they
>pushed Hitler’s army all the way back to Berlin, and then waited
>there patiently for the other allies to arrive from the west.

>One of the main Russian criticisms of Stalin in this period was that
>he had placed too much trust in Hitler and was caught with his pants
>down.

>Of course, Mr. Giwer will disagree. Of course, Mr. Giwer will label
>me some kind of dimwit for reporting the truth. Of course, Mr. Giwer
>will not provide a single, solitary shred of evidence to refute me.

When you get around to dealing with the facts that you learned
even in gradeschool without the war time propaganda you will be
able to understand history much better.

First we have the selective declaration of war by France and
England upon Germany but not on Russia for the invasion of
Poland. Then when it is clear England is getting crap beat out
of it, Russia opens up the second front diverting German
resources. It is only a matter of time before the agreement
between England and Russia to do this comes to light.

Until then, look at the obvious, and explain the selective
declarations of war.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More interesting information
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:54:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 11:55:37 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
>>holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
>>holocaust by country and by percentage in that country. This of
>>course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
>>countries, presumably at the end of the war. That gives us 9.6
>>million.
> >
>> We can also look at the numbers in the Wannsee Protocol and find
>>in January 1942, excluding Britain and Ireland from the total,
>>11M Jews in these same countries.
>>
>> Thus we have about 1.4 million unaccounted for.
>>
>> One wonders how these unaccounted for were separated from those
>>who died without records — if we are talking about the “no
>>records kept” version of the story.

> If you do the math correctly (from the SWC page) you actually get about
> 9,077,000 rather than 9.4 million.

I’m going to have to report that to the folks who own Quattro Pro
these days.

But that merely creates a larger
> number for the question asked. It is a reasonable question to ask. I
> don’t know the answer, but can posit several possibilities. Maybe
> another reader here has read some research which will shed light on
> which of these possibilities is most likely valid:

> 1. Possibly the numbers used at the SWC are not completely accurate.
> Possibly more than 5.86 million Jews (the number they are using) is a
> low estimate. As historians’ estimates range from 4.8 million to
> about 6l5 million depending upon the method used – and assumptions used
> – to generate the estimate, it is possible that this accounts for
> something.

> 2. Possibly the Nazi’s were incorrect in their estimate of eleven
> million European Jews in 1942. Tom Moran has already shown us that the
> Nazi’s estimate of Jews in France was flawed. It is possible that
> other estimates of theirs were flawed and that the eleven million count
> is off. (Does anyone here know how that estimate was arrived at and
> the liklihood of its accuracy?)

> 3. Possibly – even likely – some Jews emigrated from Europe after 1942.
> While emigration was strongly curtailed due to war (and we have several
> stories of Jews trying to emigrate and being denied), it is possible
> that some Jews did manage to either formally emigrate or simply managed
> to sneak out of Europe (or to Britain or Ireland) to account for some
> of the discrepency. (Does anyone here know what the Jewish emigration
> numbers were during WWII?)

> 4. It is possible (actually it is known fact) that some Jews left
> Europe immediately (or shortly) after the end of the war. It is
> possible that their emigration was timed in such a manner that it was
> not caught in post war censuses. That is, all of these estimates are
> very rough estimates – post war movement of peoples may not accurately
> be captured.

> 5. It is possible that some of those people were still in Europe but
> kept a low profile after the war and were not accounted for in post war
> census data. Given the treatment of the Jews just hence, it seems a
> reasonable move not to announce one’s self to a census taker.

> In all likelihood most or all of these hypotheses had some effect on
> the discrepencies which might have existed in the counting of Jews
> after the war. My personal guess – and this is only a guess – is that
> #2 accounts for most of this discrepency. I suspect that the Nazi’s
> count of Jews was based on the best data available to them, but that
> Jews were leaving Europe prior to the war – when they could and the
> total count of Jews likely was less than official numbers would
> indicate. Again, this is only a guess – I have no data to back this
> up.

> Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Interesting suggestions. Now can you answer why NONE of the
suggestions apply to the “undocumented” people who were supposed
to have been immediately gassed?

I know that they did not apply when I made several of those
suggestions when the undocumented version of the story came up.
When I did it, it was denying the holocaust.

So why are you not “denying the holocaust” by making suggestions
like these?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:06 PDT 1996
Article: 41048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:50:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 3:52:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>M. Giwer wrote:

>>Very good. Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>>common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.

>Perhaps the word is “did” run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years. The
>rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced the
>incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer. Subsequent
>investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>effective in this regard.

Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
until studies were conducted some 30 years ago. You have a long
way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
grounds.

It was no more than a sexual mutilation custom started by some
primitive peoples. It was continued with a religious
justification. It originated independently several different
places around the world. It is not unique to the Hebrews.

It is difficult to accept that in one place it is a “covenant
with god” and in other places it is merely sexual mutilation.
Unless of course this god was going around making a lot of
covenants.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41049 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:15:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4oges[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 2:17:31 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Tell me where the other 6.8 million were exteriminated.

>As with the Jewish victims, they were not all killed in the same
>place at the same time, but Mr. Giwer already knows that.

>Some were worked to death in concentration camps, others were killed
>indiscriminately by German troops during their many invasions,
>others were killed in retaliation for local partisan activity, and
>some were killed for trying to save others who were on the Nazis’
>hit list.

But then when people picked up the pieces after those events the
places where they were marked. Even the remains from Katyn (sp?)
Woods were found.

But when it comes to the remains of hundreds of thousands of
bodies all in one place, the best we have are a few fragments
here and there.

> Please tall the screens you need.

>Why bother? Mr. Giwer has no intention of reading what I post anyway.
>If he does bother to read any of it, he will not understand most of
>it anyway.

I didn’t think you would.

All he really wants to do is use my post as a vehicle for
>trying to provoke me to anger, because in his twisted little psyche,
>provoking someone means winning whatever mind game he is playing.

Gee, I didn’t realize you figured it all out.

> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

What is truth?
—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, lying Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 02:26:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 9:27:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>[email from Colin McGregor, administrator of idirect.com, deleted]
>>
>> But you have to remember that 87 of those messages were those he
>>requested to receive from me which constituted a mail bomb from
>>Marduk of Internet Direct which is within the “acceptable use
>>policy” of his organization.

> I will remember that. I will also remember the fact that you do not
>deny lying about having information from Mr. McGregor identifying Gordon
>McFee as Marduk.

I have not claimed that. Why do you say I did?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:28:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 11:30:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) whines:

> As there was one time some question about this matter.
>
> http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~ld9d/arch.html for more
> information.
>
> His only fast architectural requirement from
> the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
> Remembrance. This has been
> taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
> Jews who died in the Holocaust.

>This only proves that Mr. Giwer cannot read with comprehension. The text
>says, “This has been taken to symbolize…” It does not say, “The
>architect said this is to symbolize…”

>The architect insisted on a hexagonal building for no reason, except that
>it fit his artisitic sensibilities. The interpretation was contributed by
>the art critics, who, as everyone knows, are failed artists themselves.

Save that the full statement in context is …

James Ingo Freed’s initial reluctance to take on the planning of
the museum dissipated after
visiting the shtetls and the death camps in Europe. He began to
incorporate elements of both the
Jews’ lives before the Holocaust and architectural details from
the camps themselves into his
planning. Freed said, “There are certain methodologies of
construction, certain tectonics that
begin to be very powerful in the memory of the place.” His only
fast architectural requirement from
the commission concerned the hexagonal shape of the Hall of
Remembrance. This has been
taken to symbolize both the Star of David and the six million
Jews who died in the Holocaust. His
other design decisions were concerned with the abstraction of
form to evoke meaning, saying, “I
wanted to make it abstractly symbolic. I was not interested in
resuscitating the forms of the
Holocaust.” With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
avoidance of any neo-classical
alignment with Albert Speer’s architecture of the Third Reich,
Freed began drawing specific
proposals.

Of course, context is everything.

>Mr. Giwer’s post also says:

> With these loose parameters in mind, as well as an
> avoidance of any neo-classical alignment…

>I assume that normal square buildings were too “neo-classical” for the
>architect, and Washington already has a Pentagon, so the only way for him
>to be original and creative was to make his building a hexagon.

The building is NOT a hexagon. ONLY the Hall of Rememberance is.
Given the number dead it should be 12 sided or 5 sided. The
lower figure has always been known to reputable historians. Have
you not bee reading? But then this is more memorial than museum
as it preserves the 6 million myth in place of the currently true
5 million (rounded off of course.)

And the
>nutty art critics fell all over themselves to find some sort of symbolic
>interpretation just toprove to themselves that they have some spark of
>creativity too.

They are not all Elthsworth Tooheys. (You figure it out.)

>And Mr. Giwer bought into it like a rube at a carnival side show.

First off SIX sides for this hall is a requirement from the
commission, as you can read without the heavy editting. It is
NOT his idea. He has no choice in that matter.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 07:23:10 PDT 1996
Article: 41097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Image documentation standards
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 05:08:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 12:09:54 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/gifs/README
> incoming/README
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/04

>Effective June 1, 1996, Nizkor will no longer accept image files
>without sufficient documentation. Those images without
>documentation as to their source will be removed from the
>system on July 1, 1996.

>Image files are to be documented in an accomplanying text
>file, using the same file name and the extension “.ref,” for
>”reference.”

>If you upload a file called IMAGE.GIF, you must also upload
>IMAGE.REF at the same time, or IMAGE.GIF will be deleted. Your
>name and email address must be included in the REF file.

>Bibliographic documention must be to academic standards, and
>include the author, title of book or article, city of
>publication, publisher, year of publication and the page
>number from which the image was taken.

>Additional information, i.e. image captions, detail
>information, may be included within the REF file.

>Ken McVay
>The Nizkor Project

About time you introduced some discipline into the site.

Now all you have to do is find the references and personally
verify their existance.

Don’t bother to thank me.

Are you going to do the same thing with your text files some day
also? It would make a vast improvement, as would some semblance
of organization.

Were you to move the site to WEBCOM (no connection) they have a
utility that would generate a real index rather than the REGEX
guess the file name game.

It really is a shame to see such a site be so wasted in so many
ways.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 10:04:13 PDT 1996
Article: 41102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 06:58:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 2:00:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>M. Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>Very good. Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>>>>common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.
>>
>>>Perhaps the word is “did” run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>>>newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years. The
>>>rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced
>the
>>>incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer. Subsequent
>>>investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>>>effective in this regard.
>>
>> Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
>>until studies were conducted some 30 years ago. You have a long
>>way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
>>grounds.
>>
>> It was no more than a sexual mutilation custom started by some
>>primitive peoples. It was continued with a religious
>>justification. It originated independently several different
>>places around the world. It is not unique to the Hebrews.
>>
>> It is difficult to accept that in one place it is a “covenant
>>with god” and in other places it is merely sexual mutilation.
>>Unless of course this god was going around making a lot of
>>covenants.
>>
>>

>You are just flaming on this one, Matt. Circumcision among non-Jews in
>Europe is and always has been _rare_. It was rare in the US, too, until
>the 1920’s, and the development of the practice coincided (a) with the
>hospitalization of birth, (b) leftover American prudery about
>masturbation, and it was thought that circumcision would discourage that
>practice. Obviously, _nothing_ discourages you.

>You are just flaming here, enough already.

Excuse me but you have a lot to learn about the wordwide
prevalence of this tradition among people who never claimed to
make any covenant with any god.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 10:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 41108 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Don’t mention the heroes
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 09:48:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 4:50:08 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>For once, I tend to agree with Giwer. If there’s indeed such
>a guideline – not to mention heroic efforts of some Germans
>to help Jews during the Holocaust – I think this is wrong.

>The question is what “not to dwell” means. It is true that,
>unfortunately, there were not many such efforts, and they
>hardly change the course of the Nazi genocide.

>I was surprised, BTW, that the name of Dr. Lingens-Reiner
>was not mentioned.

Of course you still hold that a minimum of 250,000 is “there were
not many such efforts.”

Excuse me good sir, but is 1 a hero and a million a statistic?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 15:47:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41189 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 07:54:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 2:55:33 AM CDT 1996
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Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:

>> [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) said:
>>
>> >>>This is typical Nazi trash, which our Hitler-lovers spew out
>> >>>continuously. Hitler began an aggressive war during which Nazi
>> >>>Germany occupied nearly all of Europe, and a large portion
>> >>>of the USSR. It seems that the scum here is trying to deny not
>> >>>only the Holocaust, but all of Nazi Germany’s acts of aggression
>> >>>and war.

>Hitler offered to make peace with Britain in July 1940. The British told him
>to shove it.

I find it difficult to believe that any aculturated person would
not know this.

Let me rephrase that. Obiously they know it. It is in all the
history books from elementary education on up. It is only that
they can not think for themselves about what they are reading
that permits then to impose WW II propaganda upon facts they
clearly know are contrary to the facts.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 18:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41207 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka:some coincidences…
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:48:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 3:50:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:

> The biggest part of this post was revised by Al, not because
> it could become a FAQ (it’s a one shot) but because we have some
> projects in the mind for the whole original stuff that I wrote. Don’t
> know if I’ll become millionaire like him:

> It is a certanty that Jews who were deported in Treblinka were not send
>there for vacancy. The Reinhardt action was depriving them from all their
>goods to the profit of the german state. A report from the SS officer Glo-
>bocnick written the 5 January 1944 describe in a list all the possessions
>taken from them in the camp under his control. We can find there 2910 kilos
>of gold bar, 18,734 kilos of silver, 16,000 carats of diamonds, money from
>forty-height countries and gold coins from thirthy four for a total value of
>7 million $ in 1944 prices. (1). Simon Wiesenthal claim to have seen in the
>german files a document signed by Stangl where he talks about 25 wagonloads
>of women’s hair, 248 wagonloads of clothing, 100 wagonloads of shoes, 400,000
>gold watches and 145,000 kilograms of gold wedding-rings.(2)

Just as a quick ckeck, the largest man’s wedding band runs 16
grams at most. That means 9 million or so of the largest wedding
bands. And of course, even in the metric world, gold is NOT
measured in grams but in troy ounces.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 18:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:36:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-16.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 3:37:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> Sometimes testimonies are so absurd that you can’t help but laugh out
>> loud. But then, you never know when, described just a little bit
>> differently, you will find yourself nodding grimly in agreement.

>That, Ehrlich, is _very_ true.

>For example, Bradley Smith delights in presenting Elie Wiesel’s
>testimony about how mass graves would erupt, months later, with “geysers
>of blood.” Smith refers to Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace
>Prize laureate, as “not wrapped too tight” — an insult, by the way,
>which fellow revisionist David Cole has expressed concern over.

>Here’s how that was reported in _The Holocaust On Trial_ (Lenski, Robert,
>1989, p. 174):

> As an example of blatant Holocaust fraud, Smith cited the fantasies
> of Elie Wiesel, who “claims that when some Jews were executed in the
> Ukraine, that for months after the shootings…their cadavers
> continued to spurt geysers of blood from their graves into the air.
> Now, I have two ways to look at this. I can either look at it as if
> Mr. Wiesel believes it, then of course he’s not wrapped too tight,
> or I can look at it that he’s passing along fraudulent information.
> You don’t have to have a doctorate in hydrology to understand in
> this day and age that even Jewish cadavers cannot spurt geysers of
> blood from their graves for months after they have been buried.
> […] This is one example.”

>(First ellipsis is in Lenski; bracketed ellipsis is added by me.)

>An actual geyser, of course, would be impossible, but it is well-known
>that the decomposition in mass graves in warm weather produces a great
>deal of gas, which can expel ichor, rotting flesh, and mud up through
>the surface of the ground. While, strictly speaking, that’s neither
>blood nor a geyser, it is almost certainly what Elie Wiesel’s source was
>talking about. That’s a third way to look at it, which Mr. Smith
>apparently did not consider, and I assume that, upon consideration, the
>typical reader will be nodding grimly in agreement with me when I say
>that if Mr. Wiesel is crazy for believing this is possible, then I must
>be crazy as well.

Which takes less than one week, the abdomen ruptures and that is
the end of if.

But do not forget that Wiesel and his father chose to retreat
with the Germans rather than be liberated so you have to admit
neither was “wrapped too tight.”

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 18:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 41215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:11:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 3:12:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>## this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>## the same location?
>
># Now just how would the witnesses know about both? Or are you
># saying he was accused of both operating Treblinka in Poland AND a
># doormat factory some place else?
>
>He was in charge of the utilization of what was plundered from
>the victims; not only the victims of Treblinka.
>
># You think he was in charge of a doormat factory?
>
>You think your IQ is 163?

I thought it was clear from the beginning that the doormat story
was also a lie. It appears you believe it. After all, there had
to be a lot left after it was used to stuff mattresses and make
socks for submariners and all the other really important uses
that were made of it.

The steam story was fabricated too. Get over it.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 20:36:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:42:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 1:44:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Danny) writes:
>>
>>but first Tom Moran writes:
>>>
>>>> I would invite anyone to become aware of those old Holocaust
>>>>accounts which have been deleted from the story and check out Nizkor
>>>>and see if any are there still being stated directly or implied as
>>>>still true. The soap story, numbers at Auschwitz and a few others.
>>>> The reason for Nizkor is as stated. To have someone out posting
>>>>absurd things that the likes of the Wiesenthal Center wants to avoid
>>>>responsiblilty for, yet to have it said.
>>>
>>> You did lots of dancing and asking of other people to do your work
>>for
>>> you, but I note that you did not clearly name even *one* fact that
>>> Nizkor and SWC differ on. I don’t feel obligated to “check out
>>Nizkor
>>> and see if any are there….” You made the assertion; you present
>>the
>>> facts.
>>>
>>> So far, you are just hot air.
>>>
>>> daniel david mittleman
>>
>>Actually, Dan, he did name some: the soap story, numbers at Auschwitz, and
>>a few others. I don’t know what the “few others” are, and I don’t know
>>exactly what he means by the numbers at Auschwitz, but there is an
>>extensive “soap” file under Stutthof, which, among other things, contains
>>descriptions handbags and such made from skin that was tanned under the
>>supervision of the same Dr. Spanner who allegedly oversaw the human soap
>>production. BTW, Dr. Spanner was never prosecuted in West Germany for
>>these alleged activities.
>>
>>I think Tom misunderstands Nizkor’s purpose. It is an all-purpose
>>archive. As such, it is invaluable (the only thing it lacks is a cross
>>link to the other side, _they_ always cross link Nizkor.) By going
>>through its files you can call up all kinds of stuff, which, although it
>>may not be in the current consensus of historians, is still useful. Hell,
>>I have even found revisionist stuff in there. When they get the entire
>>IMT and NMT transcripts on line that will also be a tremendous boon, even
>>though those transcripts will also contain their share of falsehoods,
>>like, for example, the Soviet generated testimony on Katyn!

> The problem with the ‘all purpose proposal’ as to Nizkor files is
>they include obsolete, debunked, deleted past facts without informing
>the reader they are in fact no longer a position of the story.

Credit where credit is due. At least it does not do a 1984 on
history like some other sites.

In that regard there is probably enough material there to do
“History of the Holocaust: The Evolution of Truth.”

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 20:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41231 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN’s book & H*ber’s lies
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:48:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 11:49:42 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck <[email protected]> wrote:

>Troll ? This kind of thing belongs in the 1st grade. Name calling
>is the mark of an immature mind. As for the book,it’s pure bigotry.

You mean like “nazi-boy”? “neo-nazi”? “anti-semite”?

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 20:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN’s book & H*ber’s lies
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:50:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 11:52:20 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Chuck <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Troll ? This kind of thing belongs in the 1st grade. Name calling
>>is the mark of an immature mind. As for the book,it’s pure bigotry.

>Oh goody, another net.newbie determined to demonstrate his
>abject ignorance. Perhaps he should speak to Mr. Moran 🙂

nazi-boy, neo-nazi, anti-semite

The three most common defamatories used here.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 20:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 41247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I only had orders to pour in the gas’
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:57:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 3:59:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>So, Giwer, what does “Prussic acid” mean?

Hydrocyanic acid, hydrogen cyanide, HCN. What did you think it
meant, Zyklon B?

But I do understand your position though. Soap means Brillo pad.
Orange juice means an orange. Anything to salvage a story
talking about something else.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 21:12:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41259 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:03:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 3:05:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>>On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Bud wrote:
>>
>>> Moran is winning.
>>
>>Winning what? And how?
>>
>>> Very often (not always) his point is completely ignored and the only=20
>>> reply he receives is rhetorical name-calling, or some =93personal quip or=
>>=20
>>> accusation and such, without a shred of it having to do with his point. =
>>=20
>>> Now to any reasonable man, one who is willing to learn about and=20
>>> understand the basis of debate, this type of response show a weakness of=
>>=20
>>> either evidence or control by the opposition…
>>
>>I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, “Bud” (why the pseudonym?), and=20
>>assume you’ve been here only a short while. When Mr. Moran first began=20
>>posting here (September 1995, I believe), most respondents to his posts gav=
>>e=20
>>careful, detailed replies to his questions and corrected his errors of=20
>>fact. For the past few months, however, he has largely been re-posting=20
>>material which has already been discussed and refuted. Danny Mittleman=20
>>has posted elsewhere the URL’s of several DejaNews articles where you=20
>>can see Mr. Moran’s arguments taken apart piece by piece.

> The problem here is Mr.Kelley thinks I post things for him. The
>post are not even intended for him or any of the others who have
>already responded. Any repost are intended for any new vistors to
>alt.rev. Mr.Kelley says they have all been refuted. He has posted the
>the URL of Moran’s dossier in Nizkor. What more is there to say. Next
>time I repost all he or any allies have to do is post a URL.
> I trust all the contents of the dossier are in order. No
>intenetioanl deletions, no special selections, everything in order as
>it happened. I haven’t checked the dossier myself except twice, the
>last time about a month ago. At one time they had a number of my posts
>that I thought they were crazy for putting in there. Evidentally
>someone must have wised them up and they disappeared. I was motivated
>to post an article “What Nizkor Omits From Moran’s Dossier” with a
>list of all that I have posted. Anyway, I’ll take your word for it,
>Mr.Kelley, that it is all there.

You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
did you? They are, after all, on a mission from god.

> Having my stuff in Nizkor is like having my own web page.

> Anyway. I post and repost.

Which is what makes it valuable to have all of your posts canned
files. That way it only takes a few seconds for you to get
something into the record and minutes for them to censor the
record.

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 21:12:37 PDT 1996
Article: 41263 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The strain on the furnaces was colossal’
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 20:46:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 1:47:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>
>>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>>Germany, March 5, 1946
>>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]

>>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
>>
>>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>> the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

> He was there in the direct capacity of the crematoriums, five
>times, during the peak extermination years and all he can attest to is
>”Yes, I did see one …”.

I notice also that although he is asked in the plural, he answers
in the singular. This being contrary to the one krema one gas
chamber dogma.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:28 PDT 1996
Article: 41271 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:48:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 12:49:56 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> Nobody is “suggesting” anything. We are informing you that the
>>>Wannsee Minutes included *all* the Jews in the Soviet Union which includes
>>>areas that were never controlled by the nazis. You will note that in the
>>>figures you post there is a significant difference in the number of
>>>Jews listed for the Soviet Union:
>>
>>>> Simon Wiesenthal Center
>>>> Soviet Union 1,100,000 — 36.4% 1,100,000
>>>36.40%
>>>> 3,021,978
>>
>>
>>>> Wannsee Protocol
>>>> USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000
>>>> Ukraine 2,994,684
>>>> White Russia
>>>> excluding Bialystok 446,484 0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Total over 11,000,000
>>>11,291,300
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>This difference clearly explains your “discrepancy” (not to mention the
>>>700,000 Jew listed in “unoccupied France.” Thank you for posting the
>>>evidence that, once more, you were incorrect.
>>
>> Sorry, but the SWC does NOT say “occupied Russia” so it is not
>>clear what point you think you are making

> Sorry, but the Wannsee Protocol does NOT say “occupied USSR” so it is
>not clear what point you think you are making.

Correct. One says Soviet Union, the other says USSR, different
terms for the same thing. There are no limitations on either
term.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:29 PDT 1996
Article: 41276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, lying Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:54:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 12:56:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>[email from Colin McGregor, administrator of idirect.com, deleted]
>>>>
>>>> But you have to remember that 87 of those messages were those he
>>>>requested to receive from me which constituted a mail bomb from
>>>>Marduk of Internet Direct which is within the “acceptable use
>>>>policy” of his organization.
>>
>>> I will remember that. I will also remember the fact that you do not
>>>deny lying about having information from Mr. McGregor identifying Gordon
>>>McFee as Marduk.
>>
>> I have not claimed that. Why do you say I did?

> “Were it not for MacGregor admitting you are Marduk there might
>have been a problem with identifying you.”

>Matt Giwer, “Re: Giwer-troll is not droll”, 26th April 1996,
>article ID <[email protected]>. See

> http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1309722&server=dnserver.dbapr

> Oh. You’re right. You said it was MacGregor, not McGregor. Sorry
>for correcting your spelling error.

> Any more lies you want to tell while DejaNews is online?

Now where does it say I had information?

Of course, almanac being hosted on idirect does increase the
connection more than a little.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:30 PDT 1996
Article: 41278 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:01:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 5:02:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Holohuggers have posted the source, Pressac if I remember
>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>correctly.
>>>>
>>>>>>>I’m outa here.
>>>>
>>>>>> If you can’ take the heat, get out of the oven.
>>>>
>>>>>Nope. You offer very little in the way of heat, Mr. Giwer. You provide
>>>>>insults 98% of the time. This makes your replies useless.
>>>>
>>>> I do not insult, I describe correctly. If the correct
>>>>description offends you folks, stop reading.
>>
>>> Anyone reading this thread (as quoted *in context* above) can see:
>>
>>> 1. You described one camp in this discussion as “holohuggers”
>>> (correct or not);
>>
>> You describe anyone who does not believe the current version (and
>>in the past all prior versions) as an antisemite and a neonazi,
>>right? Yes, AFTER and only after I was called the above, did I
>>create the perjorative holohugger[s].

> I don’t believe I have called you a neo-nazi. If so, I apologize – I
> don’t think that you are one. I think you are a troll. My
> non-professional judgment is that you are mentally ill. But I don’t
> see you as a neo-nazi.

Whether you did or did not you did not correct any of the other
“WE”s in here nor did you object to the plural. Beyond that,
professionals agree that mental illness can not be assessed
without personal contact. Therefore you are simply engaged in a
holohugger smear campaign. And that is nothing new.

> There are several points where I have disagreed with posters without
> thinking they were antisemites *or* neo-nazis. I disagree with some of
> Goldhagen’s analysis. I have disagreed at times with Gord McFee and
> Ehrlich. I disagreed strongly with Ken McVay in e-mail yesterday. I
> don’t think any of those people are antisemites or neo-nazis.

Total bullshit. But then of course, you will insist upon the
same rules apply to all will you not? And in doing so you will
insist that you post the original messages of your own claims
will not you?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:31 PDT 1996
Article: 41280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!uw-coco!nwnews.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:24:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 179
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> It is only your lack of knowledge…

>As usual, Mr. Giwer begins with an insult! That is because he is
>more interested in trying to provoke me, than to get at the truth.

A statement of fact is not an insult.

> …of present day conditions and political systems that that
> lets you believe anyone espousing any variation of the NSDAP
> form of Marxism could arise today.

>Mr. Giwer is playing semantic games again.

You really do need to know what sematics is all about. When you
are finished with Science and Sanity, get back to me.

I never wrote that an
>exact copy of NSDAP could arise today, especially not in America,
>where very few people can understand the German language.
>Nevertheless, anti-Semitism is on the upswing all across Europe and
>America, and all it would take is a prolonged economic crisis for
>some advocates to gain political support.

Who gives a rat’s ass and why?

Listen VERY, VERY carefully. It is you folks who pretend to
antisemitism being the litmus test who are preparing a ground for
it happening again.

In you definition, a Jew coming to power to send foreigners could
not possibly be a statist.

Yet you clowns defend the power of state at every turn and
particularly the power of state to make criminal the expression
of thought.

You folks are the Nazis. May you all die soon.

> Your statements are so devoid of aculturation…

>Mr. Giwer’s statements are routinely devoid of literacy, as the above
>misuse of the word “aculturation” demonstrates. But then again, Mr.
>Giwer has enough difficulty with simple words. He ought to avoid the
>complex words!

There is a book on the subject. Read it.

> …that I find it difficult to believe anyone could write them
> without reciting an article of indoctrination.

>Mr. Giwer may also find this difficult to believe: His opinion and
>four bits will buy a cup of coffee at the local diner, but it won’t
>prevent me from exposing his ignorance.

You have no idea of the cost of a cup of coffee these days
either.

> The closest any political party can get to marxism in a western
> European democracy is a welfare state and that inspires strong
> opposition.

>Mr. Giwer believes that Nazism is a form of Marxism! Yet he has the
>chutzpah to question my political sophistication.

That is what Hitler said. But what the hell, you statists are
all alike. You can not tell the difference. But then I have
posted this more than once in this NG. You pretend you have
never read it.

–Hitler to Rauschning

The party is all-embracing. It rules our lives in all their
breadth and depth. We must therefore develop branches of the
party in which the whole of individual life will be reflected.
Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be
regulated by the party as the representative of the general good.

There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual
belongs to himself. This is Socialism–not such trifles as the
private possession of the means of production.

“Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a
discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or
factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the

State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless
whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is
unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper….”

“Private property” as conceived under the liberalistic economic

order was a reversal of the true concept of property. This
“private property” represented the right of the individual to
manage and to speculate with inherited or acquired property as he

pleased, without regard for the

“I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate

to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have
really put into practice what these peddlers and pen-pushers have

timidly begun…. I had only to develop logically what Social
Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize
its evolution within the framework of democracy. National
Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken

its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order.”

> Just who convinced you that the NSDAP party platform would
> attract voters regardless of the holocaust?

>Once again, Mr. Giwer demonstrates his legendary inability to
>comprehend what he reads! My last post clearly states that denying
>the Holocaust is essential to smoothing the way for a political
>takeover by racist political party. Somehow, Mr. Giwer read that (if
>he does indeed read what he responds to) and got “regardless of the
>Holocaust” out of it.

You are a frigging idiot to actually believe such nonsense. A
multi-billionaire with credible access to the media in 1992 tried
it and failed. But you believe that a bunch of screaming
shaveheads are going to get votes.

What a tool!

> If Jews had never existed, why would the party attract votes?

>If Jews had never existed, who would Mr. Giwer have to provoke?

Whoever provokes me with patent lies as your kinf of Jews are
doing with your holocaust bullshit.

Why
>in the world would someone supposedly as intelligent as Mr. Giwer
>always claims to be, introduce the hypothetical non-exitence of Jews
>into a discussion of anti-Semitic politics?

As a mere genius, you are not expected to understand unless you
work very hard to understand.

>Obviously, Mr. Giwer does not have the necessary brains to discuss
>even this issue intelligently.

I was thinking of a mere genius such as yourself.

> What you are suggesting is on the order superstition, as in
> breaking a mirror means seven years bad luck.

>Whereas postulating a world without Jews in order to prove that Nazis
>could not possibly gain political power again, is the height of
>analytical thought!

Gendanken Experiment. Ever heard of it? If not, sue the college
that shortchanged you on an undergraduate degree.

> There in no more Nazism nor any Nazi ideology.

>That is exactly what a Nazi would say!

Excuse me. Why would a non-existant group say they do not exist?
Every self proclaimed neo-Nazi group I have heard of in fact
proudly announces it.

You appear to believe in secret Nazis hiding while the
“neo-nazis” are not hiding.

You are paranoid.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:32 PDT 1996
Article: 41286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, threat to Canada’s national security? No,the real threat is Soviate style McVay Justice.
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:32:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck <[email protected]> wrote:

> Anyone who fears free speach must have something to hide. Mr.McVay is
>working hard to stiffle free speech in Canada and is in support of a
>Soviate style hearing. This is a real threat to Canada and her citizens.
> Today it’s Zundel for debate on the holocaust,tommorow its others for
>tax protest and practicing Christianity. Don’t think so ? There is a
>major drive in the Jewish community to equate the Bible with hate and
>there for out law it in some countries. This movemant is hell bent
>because Jesus in John 8:41-45 calls jews the devils people.

> Wake up !

>P.S. So much for the choosen people myth that Billy Grahm and Pat
>Robertson preach. I wonder how the can explain John 8:41-45 ?

You don’t think he would go in for book burning do you?

Or would you put anything beneath him to silence what he does not
want to hear?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:32 PDT 1996
Article: 41289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:30:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>> So what is the difference in how the groupings are presented?
>> Are you really suggesting that the Wannsee Conference simply
>> “forgot” to mention Poland? If so that puts them down to only 8
>> Million Jews they were interested in.

> Nobody is “suggesting” anything. We are informing you that the
>Wannsee Minutes included *all* the Jews in the Soviet Union which includes
>areas that were never controlled by the nazis. You will note that in the figures you
>post there is a significant difference in the number of Jews listed for the Soviet
>Union:

>> Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> Soviet Union 1,100,000 — 36.4% 1,100,000
>36.40%
>> 3,021,978

>> Wannsee Protocol
>> USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000
>> Ukraine 2,994,684
>> White Russia
>> excluding Bialystok 446,484 0
>>
>>
>> Total over 11,000,000
>11,291,300
>>

> This difference clearly explains your “discrepancy” (not to mention the
>700,000 Jew listed in “unoccupied France.” Thank you for posting the evidence
>that, once more, you were incorrect.

Sorry, but the SWC does NOT say “occupied Russia” so it is not
clear what point you think you are making

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:33 PDT 1996
Article: 41292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!news.uky.edu!news.campus.mci.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keeping files on Jews
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:31:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 11:33:11 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> My preoccupation? When it is included with every recitation of
>>>>the mantra it would appear others are in fact obsessed with them.
>>>>I merely mention it as nazi-like on occasion. But then perhaps I
>>>>can start a site that keeps track of Jews just to test what it
>>>>will be called.
>>
>>> I already know of a computerized data repository keeping track of
>>>Jews. I call it a synagogue office.
>>
>> You mean they make a permanent record of everything they say for
>>public consumption?

> Yes. We call that the minutes of the board and executive committee
>meetings and the minutes of the semiannual general membership meeting. In
>theory they are available to the membership for inspection, though I have
>yet to see anyone make such a request other than an officer or board
>member trying to remember just what was decided on a particular issue.
>Also the Rabbi’s column and the President’s Message in the newsletter. It
>is all on disk. Very Nazi-like of us, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Bullshit.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:34 PDT 1996
Article: 41293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !READ THIS ONE – ITS KINDA FUNNY
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:19:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 5:21:22 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (!Rack Jite) writes:
>
># WHO DO YOU WISH TO FIND A LIFE PARTNER FOR?
>#
># Enter: Matt Giwer
>
>[…]

># Matt Giwer Life Partner match:
>#
># State: Ohio
># City: Cincinatti
># Org: Reds
># Name: Marjorie Schott
>
>Only because Juana Bormann is already dead. She would have been
>perfect for him.

Were you not the person objecting to personal attacks? Or is
that another one way street?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:35 PDT 1996
Article: 41295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:15:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Blackman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Could you please expand on the term Aryan. Could you share with everyone
>>>what it means to you?
>>
>>Perhaps I can assist….
>>
>> Low self-esteem
>> Lack of achievement
>> Poor education
>> Little ambition
>> Refusal to pay own dues
>> Tendency to blame others for own lack of
>> accomplishment in life — i.e. serious problem
>> accepting responsibility for themselves

> That is pure hate Mr.McVay. I would bet you would never say that about
>Black poeple,Jewish people or any other politically correct group.

The folks live for hate. Or hadn’t you noticed yet. You can not
have missed that they use the slightest excuse to wallow in it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:35 PDT 1996
Article: 41303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Don’t mention the heroes
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:07:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 3:09:22 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> A few days ago, I posted the USHMM guidelines for concentrating
>> upon the Jewish Holocaust. You will recall it advised teachers
>> not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans to save
>> Jews and that it was no more than 1/2 of 1%.

>Indeed. Giwer, of course, tells a half-truth. The United States Holocaust
>Memorial Museum’s GUIDELINES FOR TEACHING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST states the
>following:

>”8. Do not romanticize history to engage students’ interest. One of the
>great risks of Holocaust education is the danger of fostering cynicism in
>our students by exposing them to the worst of human nature. Regardless,
>accuracy of fact
>must be a teacher’s priority. People who risked their lives to rescue
>victims of Nazi oppression provide useful and important role models for
>students, yet an overemphasis on heroic tales in a unit on the Holocaust
>results in an inaccurate and unbalanced account of the history. It is
>important to bear in mind that “at best, less than one-half of one percent
>of the total population [of non-Jews] under Nazi occupation helped to
>rescue Jews.” [Oliner and Oliner, 1991, p. 363]”

It is good to see you kept a copy of it.

>Clearly, the USHMM guidlines did not state nor imply that “teachers
>[should] not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans” but in
>fact to “not romanticize history to engage students’ interest.” Quite a
>different thing. Note that the USHMM guidlines also stated that rescuers
>”provide useful and important role models for students” but warns that
>_overemphasizing_ “heroic tales… results in an inaccurate and
>unbalanced account of the history.”

Of course 250,000 people would give an “inaccurate” account of
events particularly in a repressive, “would you like to join
them?” environment. If it was as you folks would have it then
help was a capital offense. Just how many heroes would you
expect under such circumstances?

I know, however many there were, there were not enough.

>The simple and undisputable fact is that most Germans did NOT aid the
>victims of the Holocaust- whether they be Jewish OR gentile. No pretenses
>should be made that they did. No inflating of the role that these _very_
>few brave and extraordinary people had in the overall course of the
>Holocaust should be made. It would not be the truth. It would not be the
>history of what happened.

1 is a hero, a quarter million is only a statistic.

>That, however, does not mean we shouldn’t honor these wonderful people for
>their bravery and sacrfices and learn from what they did. We most
>certainly should. But it must be done in the proper perspective.

250,000 people risking their own lives to help who knows how many
people but at least one has to be put into perspective.

>See: http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/education/guidelines.html

>[snip]

>> We also note that there were 50 million Germans.

>It is also worth noting that there were 12 million acts of murder
>committed against non-combatants during WWII under the authority of,
>and/or by, the German government.

>> It is rare in this world that people would discourage teachers
>> from teaching about the 250,000 people who performed these acts
>> of heroism at what is presumed to have been great personal risk.

>Here Giwer lies outright. This can be seen by the position of the USHMM in
>stating that “[p]eople who risked their lives to rescue victims of Nazi
>oppression provide useful and important role models for students.” What
>Giwer intentionally fails to acknowledge is that the USHMM is cautioning
>against the perils of romanticizing history by overemphasizing the role of
>a comparitively minute segment of the German population, not discouraging
>teachers to teach about those Germans who helped the victims of the
>Holocust.

>Giwer, being a loathesome coward and bigot, has intentionally given a
>false context of his invention to the USHMM guidline, in this particular
>example of his, so that he may slander The United States Holocaust
>Memorial Museum by feigning concern for those who bravely risked much to
>help victims of the Holocaust.

>Giwer’s crocodile tears fool nobody. They do, however, attempt to diminish
>both the victims of the Holocaust and those that risked all to aid them.
>This, of course, was Giwer’s intention all along.

Rather than address the 250,000 who risked their lives you would
rather engage in a personal attack upon me in hopes of diverting
attention to the image the USHMM wants to project for the by
invitation only Jewish holocaust.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41304 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:14:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]n4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 3:15:48 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>While reading what Keith Morrison <[email protected]> wrote, see if you can
>find the phrase, “can’t stop it”:

> You ever see a person die in a car accident, Giwer? I don’t
> mean seeing them carry away those nice plastic bags, I mean
> arriving when they were breathing and not being able to to a
> damn thing in time so you can only watch them die?

> You ever go into a burning building and pull out a child who
> won’t see their third birthday or an old man who collapsed three
> feet from the door and never moved again?

> I’ve met the people who’ve had to do these things and the one
> thing they always say is that nothing can prepare you for it
> until you are there staring it in the face. Every police
> officer and firefighter and doctor knows that they will
> eventually, probably, have someone die but nothing can prepare
> them for it until it happens.

>Note the phrase, “can’t stop it,” appears nowhere in this section of
>Mr. Morrison’s post. Yet this is the answer he gets in article
><[email protected]>, where Matt Giwer
>([email protected]) whines:

> Let us put this is perspective. He is an Lt. Col. reporting to
> the two star Mueller. What is this “can’t stop it” crap? He
> issues an order to stop it on the spot.

>Obviously, Mr. Giwer is not even responding to Mr. Morrison’s post.
>Possibly, he did not even bother to read it.

There is nothing to respond to that has anything to do with the
subject under discussion.

>Anyone this impaired in his reading abilities has no business
>discussing these complex issues.

But of course you do see something on topic. Point it out.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:37 PDT 1996
Article: 41307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:06:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 6:08:35 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On 29 May 1996 05:52:37 -0400, [email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:

>>Reply to Morris continued
>>Since a row of 4 spots appear on one or two of several aerial
>>photographs of Crema II Van Pelt has gone for a down the
>>center North/South axis of the building arrangment.
>>Since there is a central beam running the lenght of the
>>room he has to fudge a little and put the holes to the side.

>My what an interesting characterization! There is a support beam down
>the middle and Van Pelt “fudges” by taking account of it. What would
>you rather he did, Mr. Allen? Say that the holes were right down the
>middle so that you could complain that he *didn’t* take account of the
>beam?

Actually they are off to the east of the centerline and not in a
straight line and they are about 10 feet on a side. You should
look at the pictures of them some time before they vanish forever
>from Nizkor.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 41348 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:17:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

> Just who convinced you that the NSDAP party platform would
> attract voters regardless of the holocaust?

>I responded:

> Once again, Mr. Giwer demonstrates his legendary inability to
> comprehend what he reads! My last post clearly states that
> denying the Holocaust is essential to smoothing the way for
> a political takeover by racist political party. Somehow,
> Mr. Giwer read that (if he does indeed read what he responds
> to) and got “regardless of the Holocaust” out of it.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) responds, and his response bers no
>relation to my comments, proving once again that Mr. Giwer has
>reading difficulties that he will not admit even to himself:

> You are a frigging idiot to actually believe such nonsense.
> A multi-billionaire with credible access to the media in 1992
> tried it and failed.

>Assuming that Mr. Giwer is referring to Ross Perot, that was not a
>racist political party, did not deny the Holocaust, and did rather
>well considering that economic conditions were not very bad. Which
>all goes to show that this is not an appropriate analogy.

Ahhh, I see. You want more than just no gassing of Jews as
conditions. Right up front you want to bring in economic
conditions.

> But you believe that a bunch of screaming shaveheads are going
> to get votes.

>My post clearly stated that my analogy was to former Alabama Governor
>George Wallace’s political machinations in the seventies, which was
>only stopped by a would-be assassin’s bullet.

He was a DEMOCRAT for god’s sake. He was using the Democratic
political machine that had been in power since the end of the
reconstruction period to get to be Governor.

He ran for President on a third party ticket. If I remember
right he got about 14% of the vote. Some threat.

The “screaming
>shaveheads” may not be able to lead such a movement, but they
>certainly can volunteer to staff it and vote it in. When Eugene
>McCarthy mounted his failed bid for the presidency, plenty of hippies
>volunteered to help. Their slogan was “Keep clean for Gene.” I
>don’t see why America’s skinheads could not clean up ther image for a
>George Wallace type of populist racist campaign.

>Of course, Mr. Giwer read that, but it did not strike him as an easy
>position to attack, so he substituted a position I did not take for
>it, and attacked this strawman.

You, on the other hand, want a NEW political party to win the
presidency and a majority in both houses of Congress. This is no
fool parliamentary system here. You can’t pull a “form a
government” takeover here. Maybe in Canada but not here.

> What a tool!

At least you learned a new term.

>This proves that Mr. Giwer’s affliction is psycho-sexual in nature!
>Right in the middle of the discussion, Mr. Giwer is distracted by his
>private parts. He must be skilled at typing with one hand.

But you should have picked it up at least from Animal House. I
am quite surprised this is your first exosure to it.

> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

You refuse to tell what truth is. Why is that?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 41360 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Don’t mention the heroes
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:00:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 5:02:32 PM CDT 1996
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18. Did all Germans support Hitler’s plan for the persecution of
the Jews?

Answer: Although the entire German population was not in
agreement with Hitler’s
persecution of the Jews, there is no evidence of any large
scale protest regarding their
treatment. There were Germans who defied the April 1, 1933
boycott and purposely bought
in Jewish stores, and there were those who aided Jews to
escape and to hide, but their
number was very small. Even some of those who opposed Hitler
were in agreement with his
anti-Jewish policies. Among the clergy, Dompropst Bernhard
Lichtenberg of Berlin publicly
prayed for the Jews daily and was, therefore, sent to a
concentration camp by the Nazis.
Other priests were deported for their failure to cooperate
with Nazi antisemitic policies, but
the majority of the clergy complied with the directives
against German Jewry and did not
openly protest.

=====

A few days ago, I posted the USHMM guidelines for concentrating
upon the Jewish Holocaust. You will recall it advised teachers
not to dwell upon the individual acts by ordinary Germans to save
Jews and that it was no more than 1/2 of 1%.

We note here that the SWC appears to agree with this position.

We also note that there were 50 million Germans.

It is rare in this world that people would discourage teachers
>from teaching about the 250,000 people who performed these acts
of heroism at what is presumed to have been great personal risk.

At least one quarter of one million individual acts of courage
are supposed to be left unmentioned.

Simply because it does not fit in with the official way the
Jewish holocaust is required to be viewed.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:39 PDT 1996
Article: 41361 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:16:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Very good.

>What Mr. Giwer describes as “very good” was proof that his first
>contention was absolutely and positively wrong! Note the cunning way
>he side-steps having ot admit that he is wrong!

> Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
> common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.

>But how common was it in pre-war Eastern Europe? Don’t ask Mr. Giwer.
>He does not even know. He would rather base his opinions of pre-war
>Eastern Europe on conditions in modern America. then he has the
>chutzpah to claim that everyone else is applying modern conditions to
>Europe of half-a-century ago.

> It is not unique to Jews. It is not a discriminant between Jews
> and non-Jews as you were trying to make it out to be.

>Not in modern America, but what about pre-war Poland? Don’t hold
>your breath waiting for Mr. Giwer to answer the question! Being Mr.
>Giwer means never having to answer a straightforward question and
>never having to provide evidence for any outrageous and erroneous
>statement.

So you are saying that it was a uniquely Jewish form of sexual
mutilation in Poland. But then, that is what the person who
suggested circumcision was a discriminant said also.

Apparently there are experts on the matter in this very
conference. Hopefully they will speak up.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:40 PDT 1996
Article: 41362 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McMartin Trial
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:13:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> I happen to have an HBO rerun of it going on in the background
> while playing with this group. It is of the McMartin trial.

>And what did Mr. Giwer learn from this made-for-television movie?

> The holocaust is worse than this. Zero evidence and forged at
> best testimony.

>So, an old HBO rerun proves the Holocaust is fake!

Not in the least. It is simply an example of what passes for a
fair trial when there is an emotional subject involved.

>Seems that Mr. Giwer has finally provided us with a citation for one
>of his assertions, and it turns out to be way off-the-wall, as
>anticipated.

>We cannot trust tenured professors of history, but we can trust a
>Hollywood movie on some other subject entirely.

It was not made in Hollywood.

>It’s an interesting thought process, but all it proves is that Mr.
>Giwer is not mentally fit to discuss topics of such a serious and
>complex nature.

You thought the McMartin’s should have been convicted? Or did
you miss all of the news coverage of the trial?

> Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

>An expert who denies the truth only proves that he was never
>an expert to begin with.

What is truth?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:41 PDT 1996
Article: 41363 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:11:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## 1) Where does it say that the actual manufacturing of items
>## from human hair took place in Treblinka?

># The SAME person was convicted of BOTH crimes. What further
># connection do you insist upon?

>So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>the same location?

Now just how would the witnesses know about both? Or are you
saying he was accused of both operating Treblinka in Poland AND a
doormat factory some place else?

>Or, are you really so dumb so as to think that Pohl – an SS
>Lt. General, no less – was convicted of *personally* killing
>people in Trablinka and of *personally* using the hair of the
>victims for various purposes? Is this what’s confusing you?

You think he was in charge of a doormat factory?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 06:56:42 PDT 1996
Article: 41367 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Scherpe came out of the room and said: I can’t anymore’
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:54:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 191
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>(Four Polish witnesses, three of them doctors, and two SS men, testify
>about murder with phenol injections in Auschwitz. Among the murdered
>were 120 children from the village of Zamosc).

>All the following testimonies are excerpted from “Auschwitz: the
>Proceedings Against Mulka and Others” by Bernd Nauman. The SS men
>who usually did the killing were Hantl, Scherpe, and Klehr (who also
>participated in the gassing operations).

>Testimony of Professor Fejkiel from Cracow (Poland) who was arrested by
>the Nazis and imprisoned in Auschwitz between October 1940 and January
>1945 (p. 153-4):
>———————————————————————-
>The witness reports that the experiments to kill prisoners with
>injections were begun in 1942.

>”First they tried benzine, but that turned out to be impractical. I
>know of a case where death did not occur for forty-five minutes. They
>looked for a quicker method. The second medium was hydrogen; then came
>phenolic acid”.

Hydrogen? Amazing that three doctors never heard of the effect
of air being injected into the bloodstream.

But then were have a “professor/inmate” here who witnessed the
development of the procedure so he must know. Professor of what?

>First it was administered intravenously, then directly into the heart:
>”I assume that the intravenous method took too long”.

Lets see, a 7-8 inch needle …

Perhaps they were strong enough to be shoved between the ribs…

Through the half inch of muscle into the heart …

Never heard of arteries …

>”Do you know who killed, where the murders took place, and how many
>people were the victims of such injections?”

>”I will begin with the number killed: I assume that about 30,000 people
>were killed in this fashion”.

30,000 people individually strapped down while this needle was
being shoved into their bodies.

>First came infirm Jews, then other hospital patients, then people not
>hospitalized, including prisoners “which the Gestapo sent in a round-
>about way”.

>”Who did the killing?”

>”At first Dr. Entress himself, then Klehr, and then – in this order –
>Scherpe and Hantl. Hantl did it rarely. We thought of Hantl as a decent
>man and were surprised that he did it”.

>Testimony of SS men Klehr (p. 71):
>——————————————
>”How did you kill these prisoners?”
>”Well, like before. With a shot of phenol into the heart”.

>SS men Scherpe is asked about the murder of the Zamosc children (p. 79):
>—————————————————————–
>According to testimony by numerous witnesses during the pretrial
>hearing, at least 119 children were murdered with phenol injections
>in the closing days of February, 1943. Force was used to get them into
>the executioner’s chair, and Scherpe himself gave them the lethal
>injection into their hearts. It was so horrible that the “medic” ran
>away in desperation. The next day his colleague Hantl, a co-defendant,
>murdered the remaining 80 children.

Shorter needles.

>”You broke down and couldn’t go on?” the judge asks.
>”That is exaggerated. It isn’t true”.

>Scherpe no longer wants to admit what he himself said earlier, that the
>children, panic-stricken, had screamed.

>”That is not so. I didn’t say that. It is also not true. They suspected
>nothing. They probably thought they were being inoculated”.

A 5-6 inch needle going in from above or below the rib cage leads
them to suspect nothing.

>The last boy waiting outside began to cry and called for his companions
>who didn’t return. And that was the only indication the defendant had
>that the children may have feared death.

>Polish physician, Dr. Klodzinski, testifies about the murder of the
>Zamosc children (p. 152):
>——————————————————————–
>”In the afternoon came the order to kill the children. They were led
>into the washroom, and told to undress and line up. And then Scherpe
>came; I still remember that”.

>Klodzinski speaks of the dead silence in Block 20 at that moment;
>nothing was heard except thumps “- it was a muffled sound” – as the
>heads and bodies of the slain children fell to the floor of the
>washroom.

>”Suddenly Scherpe came out of the room and said ‘I can’t anymore’, and
>left. After a while Hantl took his place and and murdered the remaining
>children”.

>Warsaw physician Dr. Glowacki testifies (p. 137-8):
>—————————————————
>”How many in your opinion were selected by the defendant [Klehr] on his
>own authority?”

>”He certainly selected and killed more than 10,000″.

>[…]

>But the witness saw how Scherpe “personally administered injections in
>Block 20. It happened during the murder of children from the vicinity
>of Zamosc. There were so many of them that they had to line them up
>between the barracks. Some of the children wee led into the area of
>Block 20, where Scherpe killed them while the others were still playing
>outside. There were more than 100”.

>He remembers this case so well because Scherpe had suddenly paused. “We
>thought he was conscience-stricken and that was the reason he broke off
>in the middle of murdering the children. I clearly remember him
>stopping. He left, and we never saw him again after that. Hantl took
>over. Hantl finished the murder of the children”.

>Stanislaus Glowa testifies (p. 183-186):
>—————————————-
>Glowa, like many of the witnesses who preceded him, tells of the
>”experimental gassing” at the end of 1941 in Block 11, of the slayings
>with phenol, first at Block 28 and then in Block 20 of the prisoner
>hospital.

>”Klehr, Scherpe and Hantl regularly took part in the killings with
>phenol. But I would like to point out at this time, for the sake of
>justice, if I had to set up a scale of responsibility, that the last-
>named behaved like saints compared to Klehr”.

>[…]

>The court also hears this witness tell of the fate of 120 boys from the
>Polish village of Zamosc. Their parents had been killed, and the
>children were brought to Auschwitz, where, after a few weeks, it was
>decided to kill them as well. Work-detail leader Palitzch brought them
>into the courtyard of the hospital on a February morning in 1943, where
>the played and were given food by older prisoners.

>”They were hungry and frightened and told of having been beaten. All of
>us felt sorry for them. Again and again they asked: ‘Will we be killed?
>Why?’. They had to wait a few hours to the end”.

>Prisoner-clerk Glowa sat in the aisle of hospital building 20, where
>almost daily he crossed of the names of patients “injected” by Klehr
>from the list of inmates. Not far from where he sat was the curtain
>behind which the victims had to stand in the corridor until a prisoner
>took them into the “examination room” where Klehr was waiting for them
>with his phenol injection.

>”Scherpe and Hantl came in that afternoon, and they worked for a long
>time. In order to shorten the terrible torment of the children, I would
>take them to the curtain and tell them they are going to be bathed. The
>first ones had screamed with terror in the room”.

Just above they were no screaming and suspected nothing.

>”Do you have children”? Glowa asks in a breaking voice, and then
>continues: “It was horrible. Why did they kill us? That is why I
>helped, to shorten the torment. After it was over I saw Hantl in a
>state of complete collapse”.

>

>The court at Frankfurt sentenced Klehr to life in prison, Scherpe to
>4 years and 6 months, Hantl to 3 years and 6 months. Since Hantl had
>served his sentence in confinement awaiting trial, he left the court a
>free man.

What was the reason? Perhaps if you posted the complete
transcript we would all know.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 07:59:27 PDT 1996
Article: 21641 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a White Power Ranger
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:56:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.california:25727 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21641 alt.politics.white-power:31127

[email protected] (Joshua Lurie-Turrell) wrote:

>Chuck ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Keith,how old are you ? This post is childish and in and of its self
>: bigoted.

>I thought it was pretty funny, you annoying little nazi fuck.

It is better to lead by example than to engage in undergraduate
name calling.

Or are you an example?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 07:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 21644 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jews = Communism. Read it and weep from U.S. Archives
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]du> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
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“D. Braun” <[email protected]> wrote:

>So what? Its also common knoledge that there have been anti-semites in
>the US from its inception, and in Europe for a thousand years. Idiot.
>Hey listen to this!!! Did you know Ian, that the KKK marched on washington
>in the 1920’s and had thousands of marchers??!! Wow! Was this country
>great or what, back in the good old days!! And then the Jews wrecked
>everything!!

It appears you are claiming the Jews had something to do with the
slow demise of the KKK. If that is your position, could you be
more specific?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 08:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 31127 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a White Power Ranger
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:56:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Joshua Lurie-Turrell) wrote:

>Chuck ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Keith,how old are you ? This post is childish and in and of its self
>: bigoted.

>I thought it was pretty funny, you annoying little nazi fuck.

It is better to lead by example than to engage in undergraduate
name calling.

Or are you an example?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 08:14:31 PDT 1996
Article: 31129 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jews = Communism. Read it and weep from U.S. Archives
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]du> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
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“D. Braun” <[email protected]> wrote:

>So what? Its also common knoledge that there have been anti-semites in
>the US from its inception, and in Europe for a thousand years. Idiot.
>Hey listen to this!!! Did you know Ian, that the KKK marched on washington
>in the 1920’s and had thousands of marchers??!! Wow! Was this country
>great or what, back in the good old days!! And then the Jews wrecked
>everything!!

It appears you are claiming the Jews had something to do with the
slow demise of the KKK. If that is your position, could you be
more specific?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 09:45:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55343 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:49:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Membari <[email protected]> wrote:

>Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many
>articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn’t seem to stop.
>Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or
>something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.

A B5 freak should be able to spell better.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:43 PDT 1996
Article: 41376 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:23:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>> >M. Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >>Very good. Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>> >>common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.
>>
>> >Perhaps the word is “did” run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>> >newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years. The
>> >rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced the
>> >incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer. Subsequent
>> >investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>> >effective in this regard.
>>
>> Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
>> until studies were conducted some 30 years ago. You have a long
>> way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
>> grounds.

More religious fantasy invoked regarding tribal superstitions.

>Giwer makes the false assumption that the hygenic effects of circumcision
>are dependant on medical studies being performed. While this may be a fine
>assumption in regards to the observer effecting the outcome of quantum
>mechanical experiments, it holds no water in the macroscopic world.

>Giwer’s claim regarding circumcision

If you would ever take a look at the rarity of the associated
diseases in comparison to childbirth fever

is akin to saying that childbirth
>fever could not be prevented by the washing of the doctor’s (or widwife’s)
>hands etc. prior to delivering the baby,

and then realize how rare this practice was you might be willing
to admit just how foolish the superstitions were and still are.

until the Microbe Theory was
>accepted by the medical establishment. It also ignores the fact that some
>Jewish religious strictures, such as not eating pork, did have
>preventative health benifits. In the case of the stricture against eating
>pork, it helped prevent trichinosis even though Moses hadn’t the slightest
>idea what _Trichinella spiralis_ was or looked like.

Beyond there having been no Moses and the clean and unclean rules
existing some 700 years (bible counting) prior to his supposed
existance, pro and anti pork traditions track with the type of
food that grows in the area. There is a book with a chapter
focussing on that aspect of it but I don’t remember the name at
the moment.

However that has nothing to do with any of the other food taboos
that are followed by primitive peoples or are you holding there
is a medical problem with putting cheese on a hamburger?

>Similarly, the Jewish religious convention of circumcision had a
>preventive-care health benifit (a reduced incidence of infections) without
>the need for modern medical studies to confirm it.

What is most fascinating about claims like this is that much more
advanced and civilized societies including those much more
advanced in rational health care and cleanliness standards,
Japanese and Romans for example, never noticed this connection.

Which is not suprising in that they lacked the tools of
statistics and formal procedures for diagnonsis that would
separate one disease from another.

It is also of note that if there was such an awareness of disease
human waste would not have been dumped in the streets, Japan
being one of the few cultures that did not do such things.

Sorry, but there is no way to put a better face upon ritual
sexual mutilation.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41386 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:49:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Membari <[email protected]> wrote:

>Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many
>articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn’t seem to stop.
>Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or
>something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.

A B5 freak should be able to spell better.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41387 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 21:14:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 4:16:33 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> It has been said that the Talmud encourages lying to non-Jews.
>>This appears to be a perfect example of it. I would not have
>>believed it were true. After these three people doing it, there
>>may be some truth in it.

>Tri Tra Trullalala… who again said, that it is not possible to define Jews as a group?

Perhaps people here convinced me it was possible. After all,
they did insist that it was possible.

>Who again said, he was no anti-semite?

Who was it who first said I was an why?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:45 PDT 1996
Article: 41388 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 21:19:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Richard J. Green ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Richard Schultz did indeed refer to CO2 as an acid, and he is not wrong,
>: but I suspect he is being a bit to subtle for Mr. Giwer.

>Well, since I got the example of CO2 gas as an acid from a freshman
>chemistry textbook (_Chemical Principles, 4th ed._, by Dickerson, Gray,
>Darensbourg, and Darensbourg), you are undoubtedly right in your suspicion
>that I was being too subtle for Prince Myshkin (the guy who tried to
>”prove” that CO2 wasn’t an acid by asking for its pH). On the other hand,
>we could be *really* subtle and point out that the answer to the question
>”Is Z an acid?” is “It depends,” no matter what Z is.

Even our California chemist has agreed it is not an acid. Now
you come back and claim it is an acid. One of you two is unaware
that carbon dioxide and carbonic acid are different molecules.

Again it appears something encourages a certain unidentifiable
group of people to lie to goyim.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41390 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I only had orders to pour in the gas’
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:14:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

> From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
>[Quoted in “Truth Prevails”, ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].

Testimony? In front of which tribunal? Certainly the book says.
Or does it even say testimony?

>——————————————————————-

>Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW’s with Zyklon-B?

>A: Yes, on orders.

>Q: Where did you do that?

>A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].

>Q: On whose order?

>A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.

>Q: With what gas?

>A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].

No, it is not. Too bad this guy hadn’t heard the pellet story as
yet. This would all look a lot better if they had a single story
they wanted to get before they started these “interogations.”

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41393 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:19:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) proves once again that he has no
>interest in the truth:

> Where in the hell have you been in your short life?
> Circumcision has not the slighest thing to do with being
> Jewish and never has.

>It is common knowledge even among non-Jews that circumcision is
>central to being Jewish. Mr. Giwer could hardly be this ignorant.

That form of sexual mutilation is central to membership in many
tribes not just Jewish tribes.

>He is just trying to provoke people to satisfy an inner compulsion.
>He knows that insisting on the correctness of something that is
>obviously false is very infuriating, especially when coupled with
>insults directed at the intelligence of those who are absolutely
>correct. He knows this very well, which is why he always insists on
>defending totally erroneous propositions.

Are Hutus Jewish?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41394 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:26:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning. “Ignore all
># those bodies lying around. You are going to get a lovely
># shower.”
>
>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41395 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lions and tiger and bears and screaming and moaning, oh my!
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:40:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Are you claiming that there are no reports of victims trying
>## to break down the doors?

># Post what you have as to these reports.

> From the memoirs of Rudolph Hoess, describing one of the
>first gassings in Krema I:

>”…there were cries of ‘gas!’, then a great bellowing, and the
>trapped prisoners hurled themselves against both the doors. But
>the doors held.”

>Since you claimed no such testimonies existed, we have
>to conclude that you lied again.

Actually you have found one person among all the rest that have
been posted who has some idea of human nature. But you are
correct, there is only one report of normal human behavior.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41396 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 08:25:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-16.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> Ah, yes, the female Jew who would reel at being called a Jewess.
>>

>I assume Mr. Giwer believes he is insulting me.

Why would you believe that?

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41409 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fritz Haber: Chemist, Nobel Prize Winner, Jew
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:53:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 9:55:05 PM PDT 1996

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> He also suggests that Dr. Peters received a secret order for Zyklon
>> “_without the irritant_” in 1943 (emphasis by Dr. Perutz), implying a)
>> that before then the Zyklon had it, and b) that the absence of the
>> irritant is significant. Experts might want to comment on this.

>Yes, Zyklon came with an irritant, a lachrymogen. It was part of why
>Zyklon was patentable — without it, the product was just a porous
>substance soaked in hydrocyanic acid (HCN).

Nonsense. A novel combination is certainly patentable. The
irritant was because HCN has a mild smell and a good fraction of
people can not smell it at all in dangerous concentrations. It
has already been adequately demonstrated that holohuggers have no
conception of what a patent is. You are only putting another
nail in the coffin.

>Orders were placed for Zyklon without the irritant. Several of the
>bills of lading were captured after the war and entered as exhibits at
>the IMT. It’s been reported that memos were also captured indicating
>Degesch’s displeasure with having to deliver an irritant-free product,
>because they were concerned over their patent;

I was unaware that the callous nature of the Nazis extended to
all Germans. All this man is worried about is his patent, which
would NOT in any manner be affected by a special customer order,
while not caring that a leaking can could kill or injure anyone
who entered the room where it was stored.

I have that on reliable
>authority but I have not seen those documents myself. Also, there were
>cans of Zyklon found with the warning label stuck on “Achtung, ohne
>Warnstoff” — “caution, no warning substance.”

If it as realiable as your patent information you should never
has posted this message.

>Neither does Pressac, by the way — it’s not mentioned as one of his 39
>”criminal traces.”

I thought he was a pharmacist. Now he is a forensic chemist?
That puts him in the same category you folks put Leuchter.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:50 PDT 1996
Article: 41412 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:11:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 04 8:12:29 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># But do not forget that Wiesel and his father chose to
># retreat with the Germans rather than be liberated so you
># have to admit neither was “wrapped too tight.”

>A very common “revisionist” trick. Wiesel writes in his book
>that the only reason some of the inmates chose to retreat
>with the SS was that they were afraid that the SS-men would
>kill those who wanted to stay, or mine the camp and blow
>it up after they left.

They were given the choice were they not? So in the choice they
were evacuated even though one was unable to work and required
medical resources. So why was he even being kept alive much less
being given this choice?

>This is a fine example to what kind of lying scum we’re
>dealing with here. By quoting only the part about the decision
>to join the SS – and deleting the explanation as to *why*
>this decision was adopted – the “revisionists” are trying
>to create the impression that the inmates were not afraid
>of the SS.

No one has ever claimed they were not afraid of the SS that I am
aware of.

But then those sneaky SS were going to cull the loyal Jews from
the disloyal Jews by giving them this false choice to make. It
was very clever of them.

>The problem with such lies is that they are very transparent
>and easy to expose. A little trip to the library was all it
>took. But then, that is the case with every “revisionist” claim,
>I guess.

Just as easy as the steaming and electrocution and suffocation
claims.

>I will give Giwer the benefit of doubt that he didn’t know
>this, and was just obediently posting material sent to him
>by his fuherers. This time, it may not have been an intentional
>lie on his part. But, with an IQ of 163, one would expect him
>to start questioning the accuracy of the “revisionist” material
>he receives.

It is so good of you to do that. I don’t know what I would have
done without it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:29:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]shiva.usa.net> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>I wrote:

> Mr. Giwer believes that Nazism is a form of Marxism! Yet he has
> the chutzpah to question my political sophistication.

And then you go on to demontrate you have none. You have
merely swallowed what you have been told or imagine of you have
been told.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> That is what Hitler said. But what the hell, you statists are
> all alike. You can not tell the difference. But then I have
> posted this more than once in this NG. You pretend you have
> never read it.

> –Hitler to Rauschning…

>I do not ever pretend to anything. I leave those kind of shenanigans
>to Mr. Giwer.

>Nor have I read Mr. Giwer’s quaint little excerpt from Hitler. But
>Mr. Giwer demonstrates his naivete if he believes that a maniac like
>Hitler ever told the truth even to himself. Hitler, like Mr. Giwer
>himself, suffered from a mental condition that made him incapable of
>discerning the truth.

Excuse me. Are you saying that Hitler was not guilty by reason
of insanity? Of course you would not be saying that.

But you are being quite transparent here. Unless of course you
are going to say he was lying about everything such as those
three speech excerpts of his you folks are so fond of quoting.
Or is he only lyingn when you read something you do not want to
read?

>The only way to prove that Nazism is a form of Marxism is to tally
>all of the essential industries that the Nazis nationalized. But
>Mr. Giwer cannot do it, because the Nazis never nationalized a single
>industry during their entire reign of terror.

Nationalization is not a requirement of Marxism. You should know
that.

And as Hitler points out as long as there is complete control
what does it matter who holds the title? He says his policies
have made the concept of private property meaningless so why
would he care who holds a piece of paper showing ownership?

You see what I mean about your narrow definition or, as you say,
your lack of political sophistication? He clearly explains that
he has put into practice, at the time quite successfully, what
the theoreticians had never been able to do.

In fact his success with this method can be attributed to leaving
people with title and thus he had people who knew how to make
industry run. Otherwise he would have had to put party
funcionaries in charge as was the downfall of the Russian
implementation of Marxism.

Your problem is that if you face total government control of
business is marxist then you will have to face that any
government control of business differs in only degree from
Nazism.

Or do you hold that government has some intrinsic right to
control what its citizens do just because they are employers?
Where is it written that people give up intrinsic liberties as a
precondition for employing others or being self employed?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 11:16:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41423 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s misrepresent to make a story
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:54:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 4:56:00 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Two questions from the Wisenthal Center’s 36 questions about the
>>Holocaust.
>>
>>7. What does the term “Final Solution” mean and what is its
>>origin?
>>
>> Answer: The term “Final Solution” (Endl”sung) refers to Germany’s
>>plan to murder all the Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee
>>Conference (Berlin; January 20,1942) where German officials discussed its
>>implementation.
>>
>>===
>>
>> Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is
>>in support of previous “answers” of mass gassings. But we all
>>know that mass gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>Protocol.

> And we all know that mass _gassing_ is not mentioned in the Wiesenthal
>Center text above, either. So it is not clear what point you are trying
>to make here.

I originally simply made the point that there were about 1.5
million unaccounted for people. I was simply pointing out how
many others have apparently vanished without a trace.

> So please show us where in the Wannsee Protocol a final resolution of
>the differing opinions was reached. I can find no mention in the document
>as to whether the sterilization that Stuckart PROPOSED was actually
>ADOPTED or not. With tentative language like “proposed,” “possible
>solutions,” “should be,” “possibilities,” “advocates the opinion,” all
>they seem to be doing is CONSIDERING it, just as the Wiesenthal Center
>said. Please show us where the sterilization plan was formally adopted
>and implemented. Quote the words, whether from the Wannsee Protocol or
>any other source you can find, that show a clear adoption of a
>sterilization plan even vaguely resembling what is discussed in the
>Wannsee Protocol, let alone an implementation of it. I would be most
>interested to see it.

“Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted

>from evacuation ^b will be^b sterilized in order to prevent any
offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood
once and for all. Such sterilization will be voluntary. But it
is required to remain in the Reich. The sterilized “person of
mixed blood” is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he
was previously subjected.”

What does WILL BE mean in holospeak? Yet we know there were many
such exemptions and there were no sterilizations. Or at least
those exempted have kept silence about it.

>> It is unclear why there would be such clear misrepresentation
>>unless there is a need for it.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 13:02:23 PDT 1996
Article: 21696 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:17:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.california:25756 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21696 alt.politics.white-power:31190

“D. Braun” <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 5 Jun 1996, Chuck wrote:

>> [email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Blackman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Could you please expand on the term Aryan. Could you share with everyone
>> >>what it means to you?
>> >
>> >Perhaps I can assist….
>> >
>> > Low self-esteem
>> > Lack of achievement
>> > Poor education
>> > Little ambition
>> > Refusal to pay own dues
>> > Tendency to blame others for own lack of
>> > accomplishment in life — i.e. serious problem
>> > accepting responsibility for themselves
>> >
>> >–
>> >The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>> > [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>> > [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>> >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
>>
>> That is pure hate Mr.McVay. I would bet you would never say that about
>> Black poeple,Jewish people or any other politically correct group.

>May I ask if this “Nizkor Project” is interested in education about the
>Hollocaust, or revisionism? BTW, in my book, the only response white
>supremacists need to hear is derision. Education should be used for
>people who are ignorant, but not avowed haters.

Without revisionists who would they have to hate?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 14:02:58 PDT 1996
Article: 41438 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !READ THIS ONE – ITS KINDA FUNNY
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 05:19:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 12:21:21 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>WELCOME TO THE INTERNET DATING SERVICE

>Name: Rack Jite
>password: jackwright

>WHO DO YOU WISH TO FIND A LIFE PARTNER FOR?

>Enter: Matt Giwer

>IS THIS PERSON MALE OR FEMALE?

>Enter: Male

>WHAT ARE YOU SUBMITTING AS BIOGRAPHY OF PERSON?

>Enter: Six months of USENET messages

>WHAT ARE YOU SUBMITTING AS PERSONALITY, LIKES, DISLIKES AND POLITICS?

>Enter: Six months of USENET messages

>SIZE AND FORMAT OF SUBMITTED ARCHIVE?

>Enter: Five megs/mime/zip

>WHAT FORMAT IS THE GRAPHIC OF THE PERSON?

>Enter: JPEG/drivers license photo

>SHOULD PHOTO BE USED IN ATTRACTIVE-INDEX FOR PARTNER CHOICE?

>Enter: Yes

>PLEASE TYPE “SUBMIT” WHEN READY.

>Enter: Submit

>WORKING…. Searching IDS Database… Searching all net engines…
>Wait….

>MATCH FOUND!

>Greetings from IDS, your life partner had been chosen. The computer
>found a perfect match in all respects, in fact no search of these
>engines has ever before found perfect matches in all categories.

>Matt Giwer Life Partner match:

>Contact:

>State: Ohio
>City: Cincinatti
>Org: Reds
>Name: Marjorie Schott

Beats Daniel Mittleman who said essentially the same thing.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 14:02:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41444 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Klein Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:32:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein
>>>[Quoted in “The Belsen Trial” – Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
>>>Company, 1949.p. 717]
>>>—————————————————————-
>>>When transports arrived at Auschwitz it was the doctor’s job to pick
>>>out those who were unfit or unable to work. These included children,
>>>old people and the sick. I have seen the gas chambers and crematoria
>>>at Auschwitz, and I knew that those I selected were to go to the gas
>>>chamber. But I only acted on orders given to me by Dr. Wirtz.
>>
>> This is an old one. He should have seen them at Birkenau where
>>the gas chambers migrated to a few years ago.

> The Giwer-troll does not know, or pretends not to know, that Birkenau
>was a subcamp (albeit a very large one) of the Auschwitz complex and is
>sometimes referred to as Auschwitz II. The two camps together are often
>called Auschwitz-Birkenau, but in colloquial discussion are simply both
>referred to as Auschwitz. Dishonest trolls who are more interested in
>playing childish word games by seizing on any point of ambiguity and
>pretending there is not another legitimate way to read the text can, of
>course, have a field day with this one. Wait until he hears about
>Monowitz, sometimes also called Auschwitz III.

> Or wait until he hears about the stories as to where my grandfather
>come from. Some people say he came from Lemberg, while others insist that
>the city he came from is Lvov. I wonder if the 163 IQ type can tell me
>how to resolve these conflicting true truths.

But you see this is where the IQ comes in handy. We have several
people here who have sworn, particularly in the “direction
headed” picture exchange, that Birkenau was for those to
exterminated immediately without selection. So it can not be a
reference to Birkenau but rather has to be a reference to
Auschwitz proper.

>>>I never protested against people being sent to the gas chambers,
>>>although I never agreed. One cannot protest when in the army.
>>
>> And another bird colonel who is completely ineffectual

> You may have noticed he was a medical doctor, and doctors get officer
>rank. What you did not notice was that Klein was an Obersturmfuhrer,
>while Eichmann was an ObersturmBANNfuhrer. I would have expected someone
>who can authoritatively criticize my translation of “Gaswagen” to know the
>difference. Please make up your mind which of these conflicting true
>truths is true: that Obersturmbannfuhrer was the equivalent of bird
>colonel, or Obersturmfuhrer was the equivalent rank.

The higher the rank the less effective apparently.

> You probably would have demoted a wimp like Klein to a mere
>Gruppenfuhrer. Maybe all the way down to Reichsfuhrer SS. Almost nothing
>lower than that, right?

> By the way, who _was_ the head of the Gestapo?

Who did Eichmann report to?

>> BTW: Don’t stop. Your mindless postings of orthodoxy are a gold
>>mine of information. I am thinking of creating side by side
>>presentations of the conflicting nonsense parts.

> If my aim were to discredit any and all challenges to Holocaust dogma,
>I would also tell you not to stop. Your displays of illiteracy and
>ignorance are astounding.

I do not intend to until I get bored with this nonsense of the
campaign gets serious.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 14:57:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41448 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Britain offered “peace” by Hitler?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 03:23:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 313
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] wrote:

> “Hitler offered to make peace with Britain in July 1940.
> The British told him to shove it.”

>Archive/File: imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-09-aggression-08
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/05

>Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume One, Chapter Nine

>[snip]

>Those negotiations, on the last days of August, to which the
>Pope referred as “pending negotiations”, were unhappily,
>completely bogus negotiations insofar as Germany was
>concerned. They were put forward simply as an endeavor to
>dissuade England, either by threat or by bribe, from meeting
>her obligations to Poland. The final German “offers” were no
>offers in the accepted sense of the word. There was never
>any intention behind them of entering into discussions,
>negotiation, arbitration, or any other form of peaceful
>settlement with Poland. They were merely an attempt to make
>it easier to seize and conquer Poland than it would likely
>be if England and France were to observe the obligations
>they had undertaken.

Strangely one more “respected historian” fails to explain why
England and France did not declare war on Russia in response to
these obligations to Poland. One more example of selective
obligations.

> [Page 711]
>
>(6) Events of the Last Week in August, 1939. This was the
>progress of those last negotiations: On 22 August the German-
>Soviet Pact was signed. On 24 August, orders were given to
>the German armies to march the following morning. After
>those orders had been given, the news apparently reached the
>German Government that the British and Polish Governments
>had signed a formal pact of non-aggression and of mutual
>assistance. Up until that time, the position was that the
>British Prime Minister had made a statement in the House of
>Commons and a joint communique had been issued, on 6 April,
>that the two nations would in fact assist one another if
>either were attacked; but no formal agreement had been
>signed.

>Now, on 24 August, after the orders to march had been given
>by Hitler, the news came that such a formal document had
>been signed. The invasion was thereupon postponed for the
>sole purpose of making one last effort to keep England and
>France out of the war — not to cancel the war, but solely
>to keep England and France out of it. On 25 August, having
>postponed the invasion, Hitler issued a verbal communique to
>Sir Neville Henderson, the British ambassador in Berlin,
>which was a mixture of bribe and threat, and with which he
>hoped to persuade England to keep out.

>On 28 August, Sir Neville Henderson handed the British
>Government’s reply to that communique to Hitler. That reply
>stressed that the differences ought to be settled by
>agreement. The British Government put forward the view that
>Danzig should be guaranteed, and that any agreement reached
>should be guaranteed by other powers. Whether or not these
>proposals would have been acceptable or unacceptable to
>Germany are of no great matter. For once it had been made
>clearas it was in the British Government’s reply of 28
>Augustthat England would not be put off assisting Poland in
>the event of German aggression, the German Government had no
>concern with further negotiation but was concerned only to
>afford itself some kind of justification and to prevent
>itself from appearing too blatantly to turn down all the
>appeals to reason that were being put forward.

>On 29 August, at 7:15 p. m. in the evening, Hitler handed to
>Sir Neville Henderson the German Government’s answer to the
>British Government’s reply of the 28th. It seems quite clear
>that the whole object of this letter was to put forward
>something which was quite unacceptable. Hitler agreed to
>enter into direct conversatiOns as suggested by the British
>Government, but he demanded that those conversations must be
>based upon the return to the Reich, of Danzig and also of
>the whole of the Corridor.

> [Page 712]

Note here it is return to the Reich.

>It will be recalled that hitherto, even when he had alleged
>that Poland had renounced the 1934 agreement, Hitler had put
>forward as his demands the return of Danzig alone, plus the
>arrangement for an extra-territorial Autobahn and railroad
>running through the Corridor to East Prussia. That demand
>was unacceptable at that time. To make quite certain of
>refusal, Hitler now demanded the whole of the Corridor.
>There was no question of an Autobahn or railway. The whole
>territory must become German.

And here it is “become German” which it had been for centuries
prior to WW I.

>Even so, to make doubly certain that the offer would not be
>accepted, Hitler stated: “On those terms I am prepared to
>enter into discussion, but to do so, as the matter is
>urgent, I expect a plenipotentiary with full powers from the
>Polish Government to be here in Berlin by midnight tomorrow
>night, the 30th of August.”

>This offer was made at 7:15 p. m. on the evening of the
>29th. That offer had to be transmitted, first, to London;
>and from London to Warsaw; and from Warsaw the Polish
>Government had to give authority to their Ambassador in
>Berlin. So that the timing made it quite impossible, if
>indeed it were possible, to get authority to the Polish
>Ambassador in Berlin by midnight the following night. It
>allowed Poland no opportunity for discussing the matters at
>all. As Sir Neville Henderson described it, the offer
>amounted to an ultimatum.

What impossible? Never heard of telephone? Radio?

>At midnight on 30 August, at the time by which the Polish
>Plenipotentiary was expected to arrive, Sir Neville
>Henderson handed a further message to Ribbentrop in reply to
>the message that had been handed to him the previous
>evening. Ribbentrop read out in German a two- or three-page
>document which purported to be the German proposal to be
>discussed at the discussions between them and the Polish
>Government. He read it out quickly in German. He refused to
>hand a copy of it to the British Ambassador. He passed no
>copy of it at all to the Polish Ambassador. So that there
>was no kind of possible chance of the Poles ever having
>before them the proposals which Germany was so graciously
>and magnanimously offering to discuss.

>On the following day, 31 August, Mr. Lipski, the Polish
>Ambassador, saw Ribbentrop, and could get no further than to
>be asked whether he came with full powers. When he replied
>that he did not, Ribbentrop said that he would put the
>position before the Fuehrer. But, in actual fact, it was
>much too late to put any position to the Fuehrer by that
>time, because on 31 August Hitler had already issued his
>Directive No. 1 for the conduct of war, in which he laid
>down H-Hour as being a quarter to five the fol-

> [Page 713]
>
>lowing morning, 1 September. And on the evening of 31
>August, at 9 o’clock, the German radio broadcast the
>proposals which Ribbentrop had read out to Sir Neville
>Henderson the night before, saying that these were the
>proposals which had been made for discussion, but that as no
>Polish Plenipotentiary had arrived to discuss them, the
>German Government assumed that they were turned down. That
>broadcast at 9 o’clock on the evening of 31 August was the
>first that the Poles had ever heard of the proposal, and it
>was the first that the British Government or its
>representatives in Berlin knew about them, other than what
>had been heard when Ribbentrop had read them out and refused
>to give a written copy on the evening of the 30th.

>After that broadcast, at 9:15 — perhaps while the broadcast was
>still in its course — a copy of those proposals was handed to
>Sir Neville Henderson for the first time.

>This summary of events during that last week of August 1939
>is based upon the contents of several documents which will now
>be alluded to.

>[snip]

>Hitler’s verbal communique, as it is called in the British
>Blue Book, which he handed to Sir Neville Henderson on 25
>August, after he had heard of the signing of the Anglo-
>Polish agreement, in an endeavor to keep England from aiding
>Poland, commences by stating Hitler’s desire to make one
>more effort to prevent war. In the second paragraph he
>asserts again that Poland’s provocations were unbearable:

> “Germany was in all circumstances determined to abolish
> these Macedonian conditions on her eastern frontier
> and, what is more, to do so in the interests of quiet
> and order, but also in the interests of European peace.
>
> “The problem of Danzig and the Corridor must be solved.
> The British Prime Minister had made a speech which was
> not in the least calculated to induce any change in the
> German attitude. At the most, the result of this speech
> could be a bloody and incalculable war between Germany
> and England. Such a war would be bloodier than that of
> 1914
>
> [Page 715]
>
> to 1918. In contrast to the last war, Germany would no
> longer have to fight on two fronts. Agreement with
> Russia was unconditional and signified a change in
> foreign policy of the Reich which would last a very
> long time. Russia and Germany would never again take up
> arms against each other. Apart from this, the
> agreements reached with Russia would also render
> Germany secure economically for the longest period of
> war.” (TC-72 No. 68)

Little did he realize that England would not declare war on
Russia for an identical action.

>Then comes the bribe.

There is no bribe in anything that follows.

> “The Fuehrer declared the German-Polish problem must be
> solved and will be solved.

I note that your historian does not describe that problem in any
manner. Read carefully. “German-Polish” refers to Polish
citizens of German descent as in Italian-American. What was that
problem?

He is however prepared and
> determined after the solution of this problem to
> approach England once more with a large, comprehensive
> offer. He is a man of great decisions, and in this case
> also he will be capable of being great in his action.
> And then magnanimously he accepts the British Empire
> and is ready to pledge himself personally for its
> continued existence and to place the power of the
> German Reich at its disposal on condition that his
> colonial demands, which are limited, should be
> negotiated by peaceful means. ***” (TC- 72 No. 68)

>Again Hitler stressed irrevocable determination never to
>enter into war with Russia. He concluded as follows:

> “If the British Government would consider these ideas a
> blessing for Germany and also for the British empire, a
> peace might result. If it rejects these ideas there
> will be war. In no case will Great Britain emerge
> stronger; the last war proved it. The Fuehrer repeats
> that he himself is a man of ad infinitum decisions by
> which he is bound, and that this is his last offer.”
> (TC-72 No. 68)

He says nothing about Russia here.

>The British Government was not of course aware of the real
>object that lay behind that message, and, taking it at its
>face value, wrote back on 28 August saying that they were
>prepared to enter into discussions. They agreed with Hitler
>that the differences must be settled, as follows:

> “In the opinion of His Majesty’s Government a
> reasonable solution of the differences between Germany
> and Poland could and should be effected by agreement
> between the two countries on lines which would include
> the safeguarding of Poland’s essential interests, and
> they recall that in his speech of the 28th of April the
> German Chancellor recognized the importance of these
> interests to Poland.
>
> “But as was stated by the Prime Minister in his letter
> to the German Chancellor of the 22nd of August, His
> Majesty’s Government consider it essential for the
> success of the discussions which would precede the
> agreement that it should be
>
> [Page 716]
>
> understood beforehand that any settlement arrived at
> would be guaranteed by other powers. His Majesty’s
> Government would be ready if desired to make their
> contribution to the effective operation of such a
> guarantee.”
>
> “*******
>
> “His Majesty’s Government have said enough to make
> their own attitude plain in the particular matters at
> issue between Germany and Poland. They trust that the
> German Chancellor will not think that, because His
> Majesty’s Government are scrupulous concerning their
> obligations to Poland, they are not anxious to use all
> their influence to assist the achievement of a solution
> which may command itself both to Germany and to
> Poland.” (TC-72 No. 74)

>That reply knocked the German hopes on the head. The Nazis
>had failed despite their tricks and their bribes to dissuade
>England from observing her obligations to Poland, and it was
>now only a matter of getting out of their embarrassment as
>quickly as possible and saving face as much as possible.

There were no tricks and there were no bribes. This is nothing
more than a formal diplomatic exchange. What it does not address
is the clear supposition by Germany that in the partitioning of
Poland with Russia, England would be put in the bind of only
being able to honor its “obligations to Poland” by declaring war
upon both or neither.

England however was able to control the propaganda in the English
speaking world including the US and able to get away with this
double think in the court of public opinion.

Some day, probably long after we are all dead, the agreement
between England and Russia will be made public showing they were
partners in setting up Germany; that it was a classic diplomatic
doublecross.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 14:57:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brit rabbi admits 6,000,000 is fraud
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:48:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>More Giwer trash. Out it goes.

>Welcome to the “other” Chuck.

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Chuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Nothing in Ernists or Ingrids writings disagree with the horror of ww II.
>> >No hate what so ever. They are combating anti German bigotry and
>> >Talmudist supremicy.

>Spell-checker needed here. Matt, other than that, your logic is faulty
>as per normal

>Trash material, no disrespect for anyone just trash!..Chuck Ferree

Once more, you senile old fart, you have addressed me for
something I did not write AND right from the message. I can now
see why Ike got all the credit that should have been yours. You
claimed to have liberated a Japanese POW camp.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 16:46:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41461 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:45:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning. “Ignore all
>>># those bodies lying around. You are going to get a lovely
>>># shower.”
>>>
>>>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>>>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

>> Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.

>Huh?

Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
than they could be cremated? The stories have all three
buildings in use in the process. The aerial photos show open
land with not place to hide bodies.

So what have you missed?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 16:46:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41465 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:38:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>>> Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> >>>> Soviet Union 1,100,000 — 36.4%
>1,100,000
>> >>>36.40%
>> >>>> 3,021,978
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>> Wannsee Protocol
>> >>>> USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000
>> >>>> Ukraine 2,994,684
>> >>>> White Russia
>> >>>> excluding Bialystok 446,484 0
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Total over 11,000,000
>> >>>11,291,300

>> >>>This difference clearly explains your “discrepancy” (not to mention the
>> >>>700,000 Jew listed in “unoccupied France.” Thank you for posting the
>> >>>evidence that, once more, you were incorrect.

>
>> Correct. One says Soviet Union, the other says USSR, different
>> terms for the same thing. There are no limitations on either
>> term.

> The word is “context” Matty-poo. You use it. You claim to knmow
>what it means. Give us a demonstration of that. The Wannsee Minutes are, in
>the context in which they are written, listing *all* of the Jews in Europe. The
>SWC listing clearly is a listing of those under the control of the nazis.

There is no such statement or limitation or context in the SWC
statement. If you find what you are talking about, post it.

They are
>talking about different numbers and, with your usual lack of intergrity are willfully
>attempting to deceive others by pretending otherwise. It’s too bad you haven’t
>the technical training or ability to understand the science of biostatistics.

We are talking demographics here. But then I would not expect a
holohugger to know that.

You
>are making the kind of basic mistake one would expect from a college freshman.

When you find the qualifier you claim exists, post it. Otherwise
please stop making things up which do not exist in the SWC
answer.

The least you could do would be to contact them for their answer
instead of inventing any old story just to pretend to know what
you are talking about.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 16:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41470 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwe[email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the BIG LIE exposed
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 02:48:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Keith Morrison <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Membari <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Who is this Huber freak? This monster has posted God knows how many
>> >articles of lies against the Jewish people and he doesn’t seem to stop.
>> >Dear friends, do any of you know who he is? Is a war criminal or
>> >something? Membari would like to look into this matter further.
>>
>> A B5 freak should be able to spell better.

>Someone who claims to have a BS should show some correct knowledge
>about science.

I do. It is you who are being deceived by your fellow
holohuggers. Witness the latest thing you believe is true, that
CO2 is an acid and that CO2 and carbonic acid have identical
molecular structure.

But then you do not know enough to judge for yourself so you may
be dismissed from the discussion.

>BTW, Mr Giwer, how is it that *you* know the correct spelling
>of “Minbari”? I thought science fiction was beneath you?

What ever gave you that idea? I am quite familiar with the
suspension of disbelief. It is very like the alternate universe
of SS physical law where the holocaust is physically possible.
You appear to be quite a fan of it yourself.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 16:53:16 PDT 1996
Article: 21724 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How to Spot a aryan
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:17:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (kevin s. carroll) wrote:

>> If you consider yourself Aryan, then please speak for yourself. If
>>you are describing what you think Aryans are, then stop showing your
>>ignorance.

>Quoth the Giwer:

> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
> implying that we is observant?”

>I rest my case.

You appear to be saying Jews have no reputation for integrity.
It that your considered opinion? Or are you saying that atheist
Jews feel bound the traditions of the Hebrew religion? Or are we
back to goyim don’t have the faith to believe the dogma routine?

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 19:03:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41472 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:35:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>> Though the names are different it is only in the grouping.

> Wrong. There is a time frame difference as well. Note that contrary
>to the Giwer-troll’s throwaway line that the SWC percentages allowed one
>to compute the “presumably” post-war populations,the SWC percentages are
>based on _prewar_ populations, for which (unfortunately) they do not give
>the year they were using as a baseline. For Germany and Austria in
>particular this is critical, as there was some “voluntary” emigration
>before the war. The Wannsee figures were developed _during_ the war. The
>discrepancy between the Wannsee figures and the SWC prewar figures would
>include any leakage to areas not covered by the Wannsee document – e.g.,
>the US or North Africa. But without looking at migration figures from the
>prewar period I would agree that this is very unlikely to be as much as
>1.4 million.

Very good. So Jews were increasing their population by much more
than 14% per four years as they were also making up for the
emigrations.

But you appear to have it backwards. The SWC numbers are LOWER
than the Wannsee numbers. So we actually are in need of
immigration figurers to explain this great population increase in
so short a period of time.

What you should realize is that if the SWC numbers are correct
then we have 1.4 million that are removed from the “unregistered,
gassed immediately” category taking the 5.2M down to 3.8M Jews
which is less than the registered and death recorded category.

In other words we have a problem of finding all of the registered
dead Jews.

You really should contact the SWC and get an answer before you
continue.

> The biggest discrepancy I see is for the Soviet Union. Due to the
>closed nature of the Soviet regime, its official atheist stance, and the
>soft squishy roundness of that 5,000,000 figure, I would imagine that
>population statistics are softest for that country and a good part of the
>1.4 million difference (and perhaps nearly all) is that the Nazis and the
>SWC simply had different population sources which did not agree.

But as you know EITHER religion or birth counts for Jews so
atheist is meaningless.

And as you have read the “true” SWC number for the SU is LOWER
than the Wannsee number. So we are still presented with the same
problem. You would have the SU number higher because of atheism
while SWC puts them much lower.

> So we compare the numbers. Whee. So there is a disagreement, by ca.
>1.4 million, as to how many Jews were in Europe “prewar” (whatever year it
>is that the SWC is figuring from) and what the Nazis thought were in
>Europe in whatever also-unstated baseline year they were figuring from in
>areas where they had not already made their own accounts and population
>”adjustments.” (Note that Estonia is listed as free of Jews in the
>Wannsee document.) Very good. Now, what is this supposed to prove except
>that the population figures were estimates, something I already knew?

The only problem is that your argument is completely revisionist
in that you are making corrections in the wrong direction.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 19:03:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41474 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dees loses this battle
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:41:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 12:43:16 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Wed, 29 May 1996 07:25:09 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!At the moment we are still in the control of the second
>!generation with enough first generation types still around to
>!have “saved the world for democracy” to make serious changes
>!difficult. Consider at this point it is not a problem to
>!demonstrate (save to those who “know” it was all about slavery)
>!that the US war between the states was either caused by some
>!hotheads in Charleston, South Carolina or President Lincoln. But
>!try to tell the German side of WW II these days.

>Yeah, racist slave owning wasnt so bad… Hey Giwer…
>Revise all things pointing to the intolerance, bigotry and racism
>endemic to the Right…

>THE ISSUE THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER, WAS THE ECONOMIC, MORAL AND
>STATES RIGHT REGARDING SLAVERY. PERIOD.
>Perhaps in YOUR circles the issue was not one of slavery, but your
>circle of admirers, all seem to be anti-Semites, bigots, racists,
>neo-Nazis and one WHACKED OUT JEW! 🙂

You should sue the public school system that educated you for
failure to perform. You learned nothing of interest about the
civil war. Or perhaps they watered it down to black and white
for the feebleminded such as yourself.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 19:03:08 PDT 1996
Article: 41479 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unethical liars for the Talmud
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:50:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4p[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 12:51:53 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>
>> >Who again said, he was no anti-semite?
>>
>> Who was it who first said I was an why?

> 1. A person of obvious perception and honesty.

> 2. Because you are.

The evidence I am about to give shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth so help me hyphenated god.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 19:03:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41488 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Consequences
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:12:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 30 May 1996 01:46:30 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Rather they are people with a mission, to promote a particular
>!brand of holocaust orthodoxy.

>And *your* mission? A Right-wing anti-Semite,

You could make an antisemite out of a Rebbe.

all around bigot and
>gunloon from Hell revising the Holocaust and attacking Jews to defend
>your like minded politics with the Nazis by inferring they were just a
>benign entity doing their thing. Turned out swell hey?
>And thats your whole ball a wax Giwer…
>The Nazis didnt gas anyone, they werent so bad…

>I guess its just up to each individual to decide which side has the most
>credibility.

I would rather have a real Jew at my back than anyone else but a
SEAL and possibly a US Marine.

What I do not like in the least are the wimpy, apologetic, poor
us trying to dignify their self pitying wallowing in the
holocaust as some kind of noble cause of saving the world from
another Hitler.

I have less interest in you for trying to make personal use of
the wallowers to support your mindless paranoia. You are trying
to be the most suffering of the suffering. You are a very sick
little animal.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 19:03:10 PDT 1996
Article: 41489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:23:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>Cheez, I’m getting pooped, but this has to be done by someone. Trash,
>more trash from Giwer. No sense at all, just tail chasing! Out with
>it.

>Chuck Ferree

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> ># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >
>> >## So, if someone is convicted of crime A and crime B, does
>> >## this mean that crimes A and B necessarily took place at
>> >## the same location?

It is good to see a senile old fart quoting Keren and calling it
trash.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 07:12:14 PDT 1996
Article: 41507 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:55:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> If you want more on semantics itself, look for the works of S.I.
>> Hiyakawa, perhaps the best introductory works around. Later you
>> can try Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzybski if you are up to
>> it.

> “Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
> reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
> implying that we is observant?”

Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 07:12:15 PDT 1996
Article: 41509 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:47:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 143
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected]zona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>> Um, Matt. This is rather transparent of you. Yale produces a clearly
>>> logical argument to show your whole thesis was flawed. The two “adult”
>>> repsonses to this are [1] admit you were mistaken, or [2] provide some
>>> documentation to back up your point of view. I see, however, you chose
>>> the “juvenile” response of simply insulting him for no constructive
>>> reason.
>>
>>> Pretty pitiful.
>>
>> Save you are loathe to review anything a fellow holohugger says
>>and will never criticize them.

> Actually, you might recall that I incurred Gord McFee’s wrath last week
> for criticizing Harry Mazal’s comments about your drinking problems and
> business failures.

You name two certified idiots? Tell me you criticized Dave
Dahlman and Chuckles Ferree and I will be equally impressed.

> So, we can conclude your statement above is a gross error (if not an
> intentional misrepresentation.)

Rather you are fully aware of the intentional deception by two
chemists and you have remained silent. You can not claim to be
both reading and believing their games.

Rather you comment only upon those who are clearly damaging your
cause rather than those who are getting away with their
deceptions.

>> Though the names are different it is only in the grouping. As
>>always the objective was to deal with Jews in Europe exclusive of
>>Spain. That why you never hear of anyone from North Africa being
>>shipped off to any place else.

> If this is what you assert, go ahead and present the numbers in a
> format which demonstrates your point. Short of that, given your
> continual errors and prevarification, I will choose to accept Yale
> Edeiken’s analysis.

I already have posted that. Do you need it again? I guess so.

But in return post YE’s analysis if you can find it. What is
posted below is the ENTIRE Q&A without deletion.

Switch to a fixed pitch font. the first numbers are DIRECT from
SWC. The next three columns are simply those moved into their
own columns in a spread sheet.

Simon Wiesenthal Center

5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what
percentage of the pre-war
Jewish population did they constitute?

Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
Austria 50,000 — 27.0% 50,000 27.00% 185,185
Italy 7,680 — 17.3% 7,680 17.30% 44,393
Belgium 28,900 — 44.0% 28,900 44.00% 65,682
Latvia 71,500 — 78.1% 71,500 78.10% 91,549
Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 — 66.1% 78,150 66.10%
118,230
Lithuania 143,000 — 85.1% 143,000 85.10% 168,038
Bulgaria 0 — 0.0% 0
Luxembourg 1,950 — 55.7% 1,950 55.70% 3,501
Denmark 60 — 0.7% 60 0.70% 8,571
Netherlands 100,000 — 71.4% 100,000 71.40% 140,056
Estonia 2,000 — 44.4% 2,000 44.40% 4,505
Norway 762 — 44.8% 762 44.80% 1,701
Finland 7 — 0.3% 7 0.30% 2,333
Poland 3,000,000 — 90.9% 3,000,000 90.90% 3,300,330
France 77,320 — 22.1% 77,320 22.10% 349,864
Romania 287,000 — 47.1% 287,000 57.10% 502,627
Germany 141,500 — 25.0% 141,500 25.00% 566,000
Slovakia 71,000 — 79.8% 71,000 78.90% 89,987
Greece 67,000 — 86.6% 67,000 86.60% 77,367
Soviet Union 1,100,000 — 36.4% 1,100,000 36.40%
3,021,978
Hungary 569,000 — 69.0% 569,000 69.00% 824,638
Yugoslavia 63,300 — 81.2% 63,300 81.20% 77,956

5,860,129 49.19% 9,644,491

Wannsee Protocol

A. Germany proper 131,800 131,800
Austria 43,700 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000 420,000
General Government 2,284,000 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200 74,200
Estonia – free of Jews –
Latvia 3,500 3,500
Lithuania 34,000 34,000
Belgium 43,000 43,000
Denmark 5,600 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000 700,000
Greece 69,600 68,600
Netherlands 160,800 160,800
Norway 1,300 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000 48,000
England 330,000 330,000
Finland 2,300 2,300
Ireland 4,000 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000 58,000
Albania 200 200
Croatia 40,000 40,000
Portugal 3,000 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000 342,000
Sweden 8,000 8,000
Switzerland 18,000 18,000
Serbia 10,000 10,000
Slovakia 88,000 88,000
Spain 6,000 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500 55,500
Hungary 742,800 742,800
USSR 5,000,000 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684 0
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484 0

Total over 11,000,000 11,291,300

Good enough?

> I see no reason to accept your assertions if you don’t do the work to
> back them up. And you never seem to do such work when you are
> backpedeling from your errors.

Should I post the equation form of the spreadsheet? Or would you
prefere the WB1 in UUE form?

Is there anything else I can do for you?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 07:12:16 PDT 1996
Article: 41519 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:58:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>> Chuck <[email protected]>
>> wrote from an obviously forged email address:
>>
>> >The Jewish congress declairing war on Germany in 1933 did not help
>> >matters.
>>
>> Do tell us, Sir/Madam, all about this “declaration of war.” I
>> have a photocopy of an interesting newspaper from 1933 here,
>> so try to be precise, won’t you?

>Not to spoil your fun, Mr. McVay, but in the interest of educating
>the reader I might suggest he or she stop by:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar11.html

>However, I _would_ be interested to hear about this supposed “Jewish
>congress” that “Chuck” is talking about. Does he perhaps mean the
>World Jewish Congress? Because they had nothing to do with the
>newspaper article. If you’re reading this, “Chuck,” do please tell
>us all about this “Jewish congress.”

>For everyone else reading, here were the first paragraphs in that
>article to which “Chuck” refers:

> A strange and unfortunate sequel has emerged from the stories of
> German Jew-baiting.
>
> The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare an
> economic and financial war on Germany.
>
> Hirtherto the cry has gone up: “Germany is persecuting the Jews.” If
> the present plans are carried out, the Hitlerite cry will be: “The
> Jews are persecuting Germany.”

>Ironic, isn’t it, that the same “Hitlerite cry” is heard on Usenet,
>over sixty years after the fact?

It is even more ironic that it supports so many of the claims of
the wide ranging influence of Jews in the economic community of
the time that are either denied or downplayed or call neo-nazi
today.

And of course one notices that this is at the worst part of the
Depression. And of course there is no mention of a one day
German boycott of Jewish merchants in Germany as a response.
That had not happened yet.

BUT the SWC mentions ONLY the Germany boycott as though it was
out of no where and does not mention that it was only a one day
boycott. The story does have to be slanted to instill the
“correct” view of the holocaust.

Daily Express. London, March 24, 1933, pp. 1-2.

J U D E A D E C L A R E S W A R O N G E R M A N Y

[A composite photo with Hitler before a presumably Jewish
court]

JEWS OF ALL THE WORLD UNITE

BOYCOTT OF GERMAN GOODS

MASS DEMONSTRATIONS

“Daily Express” Special Political Correspondent.

A strange and unforeseen sequel has emerged from the stories of

German Jew-baiting.

The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare
an economic and financial war on Germany.

Hitherto the cry has gone up: “Germany is persecuting the
Jews.”
If the present plans are carried out, the Hitlerite cry will
be:
“The Jews are persecuting Germany.”

All Israel is rising in wrath against the Nazi onslaught on
the Jews. Adolf Hitler, swept into power by an appeal of
elemental patriotism, is making history of a kind he least
expected. Thinking to unite only the German nation to race
consciousness, he has roused the whole Jewish people to
national renascence.

[This is quite an interesting contemporary assessment without the
benefit of war propaganda.]

The appearance of the Swastika symbol of a new Germany has
called forth the Lion of Judah, the old battle symbol of
Jewish defiance.

Fourteen million Jews, dispersed throughout the world, have
banded together as one man to declare war on the German
persecutors of their co-religionists. Sectional differences
and antagonisms

[strip-shaped drawing with alternating swastikas and lions]

have been submerged in one common aim – to stand by the
600,000 Jews of Germany who are terrorised by Hitlerite
anti-Semitism and to compel Fascist Germany to end its
campaign of violence and suppression directed against its
Jewish minority.

[As opposed to journalism today there is no rehash of events in
Germany that they are responding to.]

——————————————————————–
P l a n s F o r A c t i o n M a t u r i n g

I n E u r o p e A n d A m e r i c a
——————————————————————–

World Jewry has made up its mind not to rest quiescent in
face of this revival of medieval Jew-baiting.

[Unless of course this is the sum and substance of it.]

Germany may be called on to pay a heavy price for Hitler’s
antagonism to the Jews. She is faced with an international
boycott in commerce, finance, and industry.

[Simple antagonism?]

The Jewish merchant prince is leaving his counting-house,
the banker his board-room, the shopkeeper his store, and
the pedlar his humble barrow, to join together in what has
become a holy war to combat the Hitlerite enemies of the Jew.

Plans for concerted Jewish action are being matured in Europe
and America to strike back in reprisal at Hitlerite Germany.

In London, New York, Paris, and Warsaw Jewish merchants are
waiting for a commercial crusade.

Resolutions are being taken throughout the Jewish business

[Apparently a rather powerful group, at least according to this
article.]

——————————————————————–
B R I T I S H J E W S P R O T E S T
A T N A Z I T A C T I C S

MERCHANTS AND FINANCIERS RALLY TO MOVEMENT

GERMAN LINERS AFFECTED?
——————————————————————–

world to sever trade relations with Germany.

Large numbers of merchants in London have resolved to stop
buying German goods, even at the cost of suffering heavy loss.

A meeting of the Jewish textile trade in London has been called

for Monday to consider the situation and to determine what
steps
should be taken.

Germany is a heavy borrower in foreign money markets, where
Jewish influence is considerable. Continued anti-Semitism in
Germany is likely to react seriously against her. A move is on
foot on the part of Jewish financiers to exert pressure to
force
anti-Jewish action to stop.

[Gee, Jewish bankers. Didn’t think there were any of those. Or
that only Nazis believed in their existence.]

The Organisation of Jewish Youth in Britain are organizing
demonstrations in London and the provinces during the weekend.

The Board of Deputies of British Jews, representing the entire
Jewish community of Great Britain, are meeting in special
session on Sunday to discuss the German situation, and to
decide
on what action should be taken to counteract the attacks on
their German fellow-Jews.

World-wide preparations are being made to organise
demonstrations
of protest.

EMBARGO IN POLAND

A concerted boycott by Jewish buyers is likely to involve grave

damage to the German export trade. Jewish merchants all over
the
world are large buyers of German manufactured goods, chiefly
cotton goods, silks, toys, electrical fittings, and furniture.

[“grave damage” is the term used. But we are always assured that
Jews were economically powerless and that all claims to the
contrary were no more than Nazi propaganda.]

In Poland, the trade embargo on Germany is already in
operation.
In France, a proposed ban on German imports is being widely
canvassed in Jewish circles.

German Transatlantic shipping traffic is likewise threatened.
The Bremen and the Europa, the German crack liners, may suffer
heavily from a Jewish anti-German boycott. Jewish trans-ocean
travellers form an important part of the patrons of these
liners
because of their extensive part in international trade. The
loss
of their patronage would be a heavy blow to Germany’s Atlantic
trade.

[And it goes on and on.]

In New York yesterday 10,000 Jewish ex-soldiers marched to the
City Hall to hold a protest demonstration.

Large crowds watched the men, some of whom wore old British
uniforms, petition the mayor to support them in a boycott of
German goods.

Another petition was handed in at the British Consulate-General

requesting that Palestine should receive refugees from Germany
without restriction.

Members of the American House of Representatives are
introducing
resolutions protesting against the anti-Jewish excesses in
Germany. The American trade unions, representing 3,000,000
workers, have also decided to join in the protest.

A rabbinical decree in New York has made the next Monday a day
of fasting and prayer over the Hitler campaign.

Fasting will begin on Sunday at sunset and finish at sunset on
Monday.

All Jewish shops in New York will be closed on Monday during a
parade.

Apart from a monster meeting in Madison-square Garden, meetings

are to be held in 300 American cities.

Madison-square Garden will see the remarkable sight of Bishop
Manning speaking from a Jewish platform appealing for an end of

the Hitler “terror.”

DAY OF SERMONS

It had been arranged to charge a shilling admission and 5 s.
for box seats, but a public-spirited Jew, Frank Cohen, an
insurance broker, gove [sic] a personal cheque for L 1,000 to
cover all expenses, so admission will be free.

Every rabbi in the city of New York has been placed under a
sacred obligation by rabbinical decree to devote Saturday’s
sermon to the plight of Jews in Germany.

Representative Jewish organisations in the European capitals
are understood to be making representations to their various
Governments to use influence with the Hitler Cabinet to induce
it to call a halt in the oppression of the German Jews.

The old and reunited people of Israel are rising with new
and modern weapons to fight their age-old battle with their
persecutors.

=====

>From the SWC Q&A

11. What were the first measures taken by the Nazis against the
Jews?

Answer: The first measures against the Jews included:

April 1, 1933: A boycott of Jewish shops and businesses by
the Nazis.

April 7, 1933: The law for the Re-establishment of the Civil
Service expelled all non-Aryans
(defined on April 11, 1933 as anyone with a Jewish parent or
grandparent) from the civil
service. Initially, exceptions were made for those working
since August 1914; German
veterans of World War I; and, those who had lost a father or
son fighting for Germany or her
allies in World War I.

[It is rarely mentioned that being a member of the NSDAP was a
requirement for members of the civil service. And of course
members were required to pay a fraction of their income as party
dues; this being a major source of party income.]

[This distinction was not lost at Nuremberg where it was declared
to crime to exclude Jews from NSDAP membership. Of course the
NSDAP was declared a criminal organization also. It is unclear
how it can be a crime to bar people from membership is a criminal
organization.]

April 7, 1933: The law regarding admission to the legal
profession prohibited the admission
of lawyers of non-Aryan descent to the Bar. It also denied
non-Aryan members of the Bar
the right to practice law. (Exceptions were made in the
cases noted above in the law
regarding the civil service.) Similar laws were passed
regarding Jewish law assessors,
jurors, and commercial judges.

April 22, 1933: The decree regarding physicians’ services
with the national health plan
denied reimbursement of expenses to those patients who
consulted non-Aryan doctors.
Jewish doctors who were war veterans or had suffered from
the war were excluded.

[It is rarely noted that these war veteran exceptions support the
position that Jews were considered a security threat to Germany
and that the veteran status was considered evidence of loyalty.
This also supports the internment of Jews just as
Japanese-Americans were interned in the US.]

April 25, 1933: The law against the overcrowding of German
schools restricted Jewish
enrollment in German high schools to 1.5% of the student
body. In communities where they
constituted more than 5% of the population, Jews were
allowed to constitute up to 5% of the
student body. Initially, exceptions were made in the case of
children of Jewish war veterans,
who were not considered part of the quota. In the framework
of this law, a Jewish student
was a child with two non-Aryan parents.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 07:12:16 PDT 1996
Article: 41568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:00:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>># Ah, yes, the day and night gassing and burning. “Ignore all
>>>>># those bodies lying around. You are going to get a lovely
>>>>># shower.”
>>>>>
>>>>>This assumes that there were still corpses in the gas chambers
>>>>>when the following transport arrives. But this is not true.

>>>> Elementary arithmetic ffrom the storise tells you they were.

>>>Huh?

>> Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
>>than they could be cremated? The stories have all three
>>buildings in use in the process. The aerial photos show open
>>land with not place to hide bodies.

>> So what have you missed?

>I think you missed the piles of bodies laying about.

That is where I came in.

“Ignore all
>>>>># those bodies lying around. You are going to get a lovely
>>>>># shower.”

But as you have read, one of your fellow holohuggers has just
said your claim of piles of bodies lying around is false. That
there were no more gassed at any one time than could be burned.

You folks need to get together and come up with a single,
consistent story some day.

I think you
>missed references to burning bodies in pits.

We have aerial pictures of two on them from the summer of 1944.
Those two show no such thing. We have been over this.

But then you miss a lot
>of stuff. I can’t figure out if it is stupidity or if there is some
>other problem.

Which story is true? Your piles of bodies or the other without
piles of bodies? Or do I have to continue to deal with both of
them being true truths at the same time?

Or would you prefer I quote you to him and him to you as evidence
you are both wrong?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:17 PDT 1996
Article: 41607 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41607 alt.usenet.kooks:24790 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:30

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
>>
>>> Have you ever noticed that is it always screams and groans from
>>> a painless gassing?
>>
>>>I have noticed that it is always some petty quibbling from Mr. Giwer,
>>>who now decides to lecture victims on the proper way to die!
>>
>>>When the victims realized that they were being gassed to death they
>>>screamed in terror, not in pain, and they groaned from the sudden
>>>realization that death was at hand, not from pain. But Mr. Giwer seems
>>>to think they ought to have just relaxed and enjoyed their cruel
>>>deaths because, after all, it was painless!
>>
>> A scream does always introduce a dramatic interlude to a work of
>>fiction.

> Mr. Giwer must scream in the middle of each post he writes, then.

>>Are you really saying that YOU would in fact SCREAM IN
>>TERROR of death?

> Are you really saying that no person on the planet, not even a child,
>would scream in terror?

You mean you would scream in terror. In case you have never
noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait. Where have
you been all your life?

>>That you would GROAN when your nervous system was paralysized?

> Our superscientist now claims that engine exhaust paralyzes the
>nervous system instantly. It is a wonder he does not collapse when
>crossing the street near cars.

It is reported in cyanide also.

>> You are a very strange person.

> Just keep repeating that over and over. If you can repeat it a
>trillion times it will become true.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41616 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I only had orders to pour in the gas’
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:24:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## So, Giwer, what does “Prussic acid” mean?
>
># Hydrocyanic acid, hydrogen cyanide, HCN.
>
>So, when Wilhelm Bahr was asked with what gas did he kill
>the group of Soviet POW’s in Neuengamme, he replied “Prussic
>acid”.
>
>So, what’s your problem with this testimony? has your 163-IQ
>brain come up with a new theory, say, that HCN doesn’t kill
>people? Why don’t you tell us about it?

># Did you think it meant Zyklon B?

Apparently you do.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41618 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:51:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
>>did you? They are, after all, on a mission from god.

> Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating
> lack of honesty or integrity. I am confident that you are full of hot
> air and are unable to do so.

Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not
provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture. But
you read that. It isn’t in the message any longer because you
read the explicite example. BTW, that demonstrates a lack of
both honesty and integrity.

It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:20 PDT 1996
Article: 41623 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:22:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected]om (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[cut]

>>> There is no god, fool. Not even any of the seven
>>> gods of Israel.

>>>”The seven gods of Israel!” What metaphysical mumbo-jumbo is
>>>Mr. Giwer quoting now?

>> Archaeology of course. That is a science. Therefore you are
>>expected to know nothing about it.

>But you know all about it, Mr. Giwer?

I have never claimed that. I have merely stated the holohuggers
here are woefully ignorant of science.

>>Next, he will claim that the ignorance that
>>>spawned this last statement makes him a better authority on Judaism
>>>than Moses.

>> There is no evidence there ever was a Moses, or that the Hebrews
>>were ever in Egypt. But you know that.

>And in two or three thousand years, there will be no evidence that
>you ever lived. So what?

Words in the Hebrew language would contain all the evidence
needed for their being in Egypt. There are no such words. The
written language would show it but it does not.

You seriously need to consider the effect on illiterate goat
herders of living in civilization for 400 years. What we find
with the Hebrews is as though African-Americans showed no
indication whatsoever of ever having been in America.

>>And you also know that
>>single idols containing all seven gods have been found all over
>>the old Israel. These idols include Yahweh God and his consort,
>>Astarte Goddess.

>How old are those idols, Mr.Giwer?

They date from 600 to 1000 BC that I have heard of. They are
found in close proximity to horned altars of Yahweh from
Jerusalem to the boonies.

Were you hoping to find them pre-Moses? What would the locals
know of Yahweh pre-Moses?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:21 PDT 1996
Article: 41625 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:14:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
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Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected] wrote:
>> >
>> >”The Diary of Anne Frank” was a film, based on Anne Frank’s diary.
>> >
>> >”Anne Frank Remembered” is a documentary, perhaps a minor one, but an
>> >Academy Award winner this year. It contains interviews with the people who
>> >knew Anne Frank, mostly in Amsterdam.
>>
>> I am confusing nothing. I am asking you for the info the movie
>> which you have failed to provide. Which movie studio made it.
>> At least, who starred in it as a minimum.

>The film _The Diary of Anne Frank_ was made in 1959, and starred Millie
>Perkins and Josph Schildkraut, with Shelley Winters in a supporting
>role. Don’t know the studio offhand, but the movie is frequently run on
>TV; Bravo and the Disney Channel had it on this week, and I’m sure it’s
>available in your local video store.

>The documentary is in current release, and you should have no trouble
>finding information on it by checking the movie ads for large cities (it
>only played 2 weeks in Tucson, so I’m waiting for the video release).

>Why don’t you do your own blasted research?

Isn’t that what the internet is for?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:22 PDT 1996
Article: 41626 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:18:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) writes:

> The building is NOT a hexagon. ONLY the Hall of
> Rememberance is.

>So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
>proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
>victims. I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not count
>for anything.

And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and it
purpose. While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six remind
you of? Which six are you remembering? Or does it have no
meaning at all?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:19:22 PDT 1996
Article: 41627 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam is bullshit
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:17:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>Giwer dropped his extremely idiotic line of argument (which
>was that the court said that Pohl was *himself* in Treblinka and
>that he made items from human hair *in Treblinka*), and now he
>goes on to babble:

Your steam story is dead. Personal attacks will not resurrect
it.

># I thought it was clear from the beginning that the doormat story
># was also a lie.
>
>Giwer’s problem is that there is no connection between what
>he thinks and reality. He also thought that Zyklon-B
>doesn’t release HCN in a temperature of 20 C. He can test
>his hypothesis by standing in a room which is 20 C hot,
>and dropping Zyklon-B on the floor.

I said no such thing. So why the diversionary falsification?

># It appears you believe it.
>
>I already said – and Giwer read it – that, as I recall, Yad-Vashem
>(Holocaust memorial center in Israel) has a small rug made
>of human hair. I suggested to him to send them a letter and
>ask about this.

Sure. That is why they have a picture of it on their site. But
some day you might ask yourself just what other products are made
of any other natural fur or fiber like human hair. (The answer
is none) Then you need to ask yourself where to find the
machines that processed this human hair to do something with it.
(The answer is the same, none.) Or were these machines, designed
and proven and then blown up?

># After all, there had to be a lot left after it was used to stuff
># mattresses and make socks for submariners and all the other really
># important uses that were made of it.
>
>Hair was used for various purposes. Tons of it were shipped from
>the camps; tons were found in Auschwitz. There is no a-priori
>reason to assume it wasn’t used for other purposes as well.

You mean, no reason other than the lack of ability to do more
than use it for stuffing. Don’t tell me you believe the socks
story too.

You get off on the soap story too?

># The steam story was fabricated too. Get over it.
>
>Your IQ is not really 163 as you claim. It’s more like 75. Get
>over it.

More diversion.

>What exactly does Giwer mean by “the steam story”?

The claim that it was because they were not close enough that
they confused oil vapor with steam. Your story. Remember?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:52:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41633 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:29:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>>I have already quoted the testimony of Rudolf Hoess who described that
>>>remaining bones fell constantly through a grating into a special mill and were
>>>crushed…

>> Another amazing description. Human ash constantly fell through
>>BUT the burning coke did not fall through the same grate. How do
>>you explain that? Why is it no one has found any bone crushing
>>equipment below the ovens? Perhaps Hoess was describing the
>>installation at Wolzek.

>Who told you the coke was in the same place where the corpses were
>disposed ? Who told you the remains were crushed below the ovens ?

If you look at the message you will see a name and email address
for the person. Take it up with him.

>>>In the same testimony Hoess describes how the ashes were put on lorries and transported
>>>to the nearby river where they dissolved quickly…

>> Dissolved? Is this special nazi chemistry? Sorry but all those
>>tons are still on the banks of the river but no one has ever
>>found them.

>Rivers use to flow toward the ocean.

Ashes don’t float, they sink. You drop in a few tons of them and
they sink right there on the banks where you dumped them. Of if
they found a way to get them further out (love to read a
description of that) they are on the bottom right there. The
best you get is some degree of downstream spreading.

You want to go into a discussion of water flow in rivers next?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 10:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41634 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:57:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>>>>Deception alert! If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is fat,
>>>>>then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories. Mr. Giwer has no
>>>>>justification to multiply this number by .1.

>>>> Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
>>>>the remaining 10% as fat. Thus the justification.

>And with 75% of water, what would you say ? Some justification to 90%
>instead of 75% (65% is more often admitted) ? Do you even have a clue,
>somewhat that the fat is concerned with the water’s rate ?

>> The floor is yours, Dr. Green.

>No, yours. Give **one** reference for 90% and that the fat is mixed
>with water (your mix seems to be all wrong).

It was an AGREED upon place to start from when WE started this
some months ago. Would you like to start over with different
agree upon assumptions? If you, you first.

The purpose of this exercise is to prove that the human body is
exothermic.

Eventually this will lead to a requirement to demonstrate that
after the first body is burned in a oven only a few pounds of
additional fuel is needed for each of the following cremations.

Want to go through the exercise? Even if you win the first, you
will lose the second. Green must have finally realized that and
stopped the exchange. Or he is just laying in wait to continue
the diversionary issue of bodies burning while trying to keep
attention from the problem of not enough coke for the bodies
claimed.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41639 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:33:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Richard Schultz wrote:

>>Every time I think “he can’t possibly produce something that will better
>>prove his complete stupidity,” I am proven wrong. Asking “what is the
>>pH of CO2

>Come on now, be fair about it. The question obviously intended to point
>out that CO2 in the gaseous state has no pH (puissance hydrogen) value.
>Since acid concentrations are commonly related to pH values, the
>interpretation is that CO2 is not a Bronsted acid, nor would it typically
>be called an acid in common useage. That’s all.

They only know how to attack the messenger. The message is too
clear.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41641 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:16:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>Green never said that CO2 is only a Bronsted-Lewis acid. It is obvious
>>>that the pH will be modified with the liquid. In our case the liquid
>>>is indoubtly H2O.

>> As the expert you are you know you never at any time specified
>>dissociation in water.

>In French, to be ‘politically correct’, we name ‘hard of hearing’ the
>deafs. Then I will say that you are ‘hard of understanding’.

>Green said that CO2 was a Bronstedt acid when solved in water,

So you agree with him that CO2 is the same as H2CO3? It is NOT
disolved. It is a chemical reaction. It becomes something
else.

but
>never said that CO2 wasn’t an acid with another definitions; he said
>too that another definitions were too subtle for you. Schultz said
>that CO2 was always an acid, ever in the gazeous form. I said that it
>doesn’t matter, while in Kremas CO2 was solved in H2O, but I said too
>that CO2 was an acid in another definitions that the one of Bronsted.

It does appear these chemists will say just about anything,
doesn’t it?

>In fact, we all three said the same thing. You answered only that Jews
>were allowed to lye to goyes. I don’t take it as an insult, but as an
>honour from your antisemitic part.

>Since you don’t admit that any water was present, your question about
>the pKa in water is irrelevant. But if you say that water was present,
>the carbonic acid (I don’t say CO2) is stronger that HCN in this
>solvant. You get the pKa in former posts.

There was NO water mentioned in the original post. Any water
present would already have been saturated by atmospheric CO2 in
any event.

So you see what we have is one more attempt to divert the
discussion away from the point of it in the first place which is
that the Krakow Forensic report is worthless to this discussion
as it failed to distinguish between never and once in one class
of its samples.

There is quite a bit of effort to make an issue of this report
but unfortunately it has only one data point, making it
worthless.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:54 PDT 1996
Article: 41646 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:27:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Mike Curtis wrote:

>>>>> But since it is an acid, it has nothing to do with quantity.
>>>>>Whatever would react would “stick” as you so quaintly put it.–M.
>Giwer
>>
>>>>With a strong acid, certainly. Prussic acid is weaker than CO2. –M.
>Bilik
>>
>>> CO2 is not an acid.–M. Giwer
>>
>>He didn’t say it was, idiot.–M. Curtis

>Sure seems like he did. He’s saying the CO2 is weaker than a strong acid
>but stronger than Prussic acid. What other conclusion could be drawn?

That they do not want any more discussion of the worthlessness of
the Krakow Forensic report. If people stop talking about it
being worthless they can pretend it means something even though
the results were far less significant and had much lower levels
than found by Leuchter.

And of course Leuchter’s collection and analysis methods have
never been questioned. They do not want to discuss that either.

You see, if they understood science they would have attacked the
methods. Or perhaps they tried and found they only way to deal
with it was to attack the messenger. They fail to realize that
his background is irrelevent to his methods.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:55 PDT 1996
Article: 41648 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:31:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 6:33:25 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Rich Green wrote:

>>I agree with
>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid. It is, however, a Lewis
>>acide, but that’s beside the point.

>OK, I’ll buy that. And after reading this far in the thread I agree with
>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is
>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is,
>but…..

Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is
worthless.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41649 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.nd.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:24:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 9:26:33 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## This proves that, in general, no more people were gassed in
>## 24 hours than the number that could be incinerated during
>## 24 hours.

># Which is a maximum of 12 per oven no matter how many are stuffed
># in at one time. We have been here.

>But we were also there when you said that diesels can’t produce
>white fumes, or that Zyklon won’t release any HCN in a temperature
>of 20 C, or whatever.

First I said nothing of the kind about HCN but you will continue
with that claim. AND I said that it would not produce a white
exhaust when you were claiming CO poisoning as the cause of
death. You did not realize that what you were claiming was death
by suffocation.

But then you will continue these false claims in the hopes that
repetition will make them acceptable.

>The number per oven was far higher; the Jahrling letter to SS
>General Kammler gave a figure of 4,756 for all the crematoriums
>combined, in 24 working hours. Now, you will say it’s physically
>impossible.

The is correct. It is physically impossible.

The letter is bullshit or forged or whatever you would like. A
letter can not make things burn faster at a lower temperature
than they burn today. Physics doesn’t work that way.

>But you are not the authority on what’s possible
>and what’s not possible,

But, as you know, the matter has been researched as to the time
it does take at a far higher temperature. The people asked were
those in the business.

although you have an alleged IQ of
>163, and although you’ve been working in the “real world” for,
>what was that, 95 years or whatever.

That makes it simple. They had 396 ovens. It is commonly called
division. Divide the total number per day by the individual oven
capacity and you get the number of ovens. I would have thought

It is rather amusing to see you can not find a way to reconcile
your fantasy world with the real world. The letter could say a
million a day for all I care. It would not change what is
possible.

># We have aerial photos of two of them from August 1944 with no
># sign of either the Kremas being in operation or any open pit
># burning. Those are the only two methods reported. We have been
># over this.

>We have one such photo as I recall, taken towards the end of
>August (I think; wasn’t it August 25?). However, we do have a
>photo taken in Birkenau itself, showing the open pit burning;
>and, as I recall, Mr. Van-Alstine posted the results of excavations
>held in the location of the “burning pits”, which discovered
>human remains in them.

There have been two such pictures. Both have been posted here.
They are not in operation. The open pit picture is undated.

># Now that you have the maximum numbers, multiply.

>Er, ah, 163 Giwerian IQ points times 0.02 (for 50 articles
>per day), gives 3.26 IQ points in average per article?

In other words, when you can not make your fantasy world fit into
the real world, refuse to think.

>–
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

>-Lu Xun.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 13:43:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41659 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:50:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote:

>>It also ignores the fact that some
>>Jewish religious strictures, such as not eating pork, did have
>>preventative health benifits. In the case of the stricture against eating
>>pork, it helped prevent trichinosis even though Moses hadn’t the
>slightest
>>idea what _Trichinella spiralis_ was or looked like.

>Read an interesting article about the pork taboo in which another
>possibility was put forth (the writer didn’t buy the trichinosis theory, I
>think because of a lesser incidence of the problem in the Middle East, but
>don’t recall all his reasons). At any rate, he pointed out that pork is a
>very tasty meat, highly prized by many cultures. However, raising pigs is
>a water intensive affair and they eat, well, like hogs.

And they are omniverous like people and have to have the same
kinds of foods that people can eat. That makes them direct
competitors in places where food is scarce.

Unless penned up,
>they are also clever and voracious raiders who would likely invade food
>supplies (and, given the chance, consume small children). It would have
>been a considerable strain on stores and human resources for desert nomads
>to operate a piggery in their harsh environment, constantly on the move,
>thus the elders received a timely and convenient message from on high that
>pigs were piggona non grata in the camp. Sounds reasonable, probably even
>to the pigs if they thought about it.

You will also note that pigs are not herd or flock animals. If
they are allowed to run loose they scatter.

They do not develop any dependence upon people for care. They
are only marginally domesticated.

They would also be predators to young sheep and goats.

And despite the movie, almost never develop any affinity for
people. That is what makes the pot bellied pig so extraordinary
but even that is not reliable. Many of them start showing feral
characteristics at sexual maturity and have to be gotten rid of.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 13:43:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41662 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER – ANTI-SEMITE
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:38:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 28 May 1996 05:13:20 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!You may continue to support your unsubstantiated gassing nonsense
>!and your judeaification of the work camps all you wish.

>What shit you are…

>!No rational person is going to accept that if the gassing story
>!goes away Nazis will come to political power. No rational person
>!is going to accept what if the Judeocentrism of the work camps
>!goes away that Nazis will come to political power.

>What shit you are…

>!More specifically, no rational person thinks Jews are that
>!important, period.

>What shit you are…

To the best of my knowledge there is no one who has ever said
that you were rational.

Are you still hearing me on the radio?

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 13:43:19 PDT 1996
Article: 41664 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & gibberish
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> Are you saying there is no Jewish reputation for integrity?

> Why don’t you ask Al Baron?

He is not the one who found a problem with what I said.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 13:43:20 PDT 1996
Article: 41666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:40:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 8:42:47 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Richard Schultz wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>: >Would Mr. Giwer consider CO2 dissolved in water an acid? Yes or no?

>: That is not under discussion, deceitful one. The discussion is
>: CO2, a gas, as you can plainly see.

>It doesn’t matter whether it’s in the gas phase or in solution:
>CO2 is an acid. Sorry Charlie.

>—–
>Richard Schultz [email protected]

>******

>How does CO2 achieve this status without a proton to donate?

Deficite spending.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 18:43:05 PDT 1996
Article: 267162 of talk.politics.guns
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Anti-NRA comment in movie “Arrival”
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:14:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 9:16:12 PM PDT 1996
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Jeff Doar <[email protected]> wrote:

>Aspivens wrote:
>#
># During the movie Arrival Charlie Sheen made the comment ” f—–g NRA it’s
># so easy to get one (hand gun )”. If you deceide to skip the movie you
># won’t be missing much. The least of which is Sheen”s poor performance.

>A friend of mine who saw the movie over the weekend echoed these two comments.
>Perhaps a letter to:
>a) Sheen’s “talent” agency
>and/or
>b) the producers of the film

>is in order.

>Just a thought…

I have not seen it. My son has. We are both into SF. He
stronly advised me not to waste my money.

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 20:18:33 PDT 1996
Article: 21849 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:44:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Steve Bartman) wrote:

>If I remember my scanner data, a ‘heavy user’ of peanuts (household,
>not individual) buys about 50 ounces PER YEAR. (This is a problem. The
>category is declining as Frito et al have taken over salty snacks.) I
>don’t have a calculator handy, but you can see the order of magnitude.

>Of course, most kosher issues settle on prepared meat and dairy
>products, so you’d have to put them in a market basket. But many other
>products either can never be kosher, or their producers don’t bother.
>Regional and family-run businesses often don’t do certification so
>they’d be excluded from the basket. Even so, if the typical cost of
>the basket is more than $.25/household/year I’d be surprised.

I would have thought that, unless one adds to Mosaic law as in
the cheeseburger, it is rather difficult to make most food
non-kosher, peanuts for example.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41708 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran is winning
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:46:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You did not expect any kind of honesty or integrity from Nizkor
>>>>did you? They are, after all, on a mission from god.
>>
>>> Please provide an explicit example (and URL) from Nizkor demonstrating
>>> lack of honesty or integrity. I am confident that you are full of hot
>>> air and are unable to do so.
>>
>> Moran did it in noting that what was on file about him did not
>>provide a complete record and thus not an accurate picture. But
>>you read that. It isn’t in the message any longer because you
>>read the explicite example. BTW, that demonstrates a lack of
>>both honesty and integrity.
>>
>> It is the sort of thing your buddy Dahlman does.

> This last line is a pointless troll.

It is a statement of fact. That is why he fits in so well with
the holohuggers.

> Regarding the thrust of your post:

> 1. I posted the above to you before Moran’s post about URLs made it to
> my site. Ergo, I didn’t lie by omission.

> 2. Moran is wrong. John Morris’s response to his tirade included the
> following URLs:

>

>Along with the subcollections he mentions, Tom Moran’s complete posts
>for May and June 1996 are at

> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom

>Previous archives of his posts may be viewed at

> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/1995

> moran.1195 111.8K 2 Dec 95
> moran.1295 275.3K 31 Dec 95

>and at

> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/1996

> moran.0196 425.0K 31 Jan 96
> moran.0296 613.3K 29 Feb 96
> moran.0396 279.6K 31 Mar 96
> moran.0496 536.1K 30 Apr 96

>

> Ergo, you didn’t check any of this out. You simply took Moran’s word
> for the lack of archives even though he has a history of impompetence
> dealing with web sites (as a web site expert you should have been aware
> of his incompetence.)

> You owe me an apology.

Not at all. Anything found to be incomplete as he stated they
were is a lack of both honesty and integrity. Simply failing to
post the entire thread to which a message is a part is taking a
post out of context and also indicates a lack of honesty and
integrity.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 07:00:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-16.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># The “eyewitness” was close enough to know the composition of
># doormats and that was a lie and therefore the steaming was a lie.

>1) Where does it say that the actual manufacturing of items
> from human hair took place in Treblinka?

The SAME person was convicted of BOTH crimes. What further
connection do you insist upon?

>2) If so, who says it took place in the same area of the camp in
> which the gas chambers were?

The same conviction.

>Let’s start with these two.

Your “too far away to tell” BS is shot to shit.

—-
Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
evidence that he was not an eyewitness.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:50 PDT 1996
Article: 41765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:37:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>But we were also there when you said that diesels can’t produce
>>>white fumes, or that Zyklon won’t release any HCN in a temperature
>>>of 20 C, or whatever.

>> First I said nothing of the kind about HCN but you will continue
>>with that claim. AND I said that it would not produce a white
>>exhaust when you were claiming CO poisoning as the cause of
>>death. You did not realize that what you were claiming was death
>>by suffocation.

>In fact the more likely is both CO and lack of O2, with NOx added. A
>low rate of O2 is lethal. An high rate of CO is lethal. NOx is lethal
>even at low rates (400ppm). The mix is lethal, and it is difficult to
>say what was the principal cause. The lack of O2 could be sufficient
>by itself (or NOx, aso). The pink color of the bodies in some cases
>could only be an indication that the CO was the principal cause, but
>the CO is far more toxic when the rate of O2 is low, then O2 is
>involved too.

You are not following the thread.

It started as an observation that there were four causes of death
at Treblinka formally reported steaming, gassing, electrocution
and vacuum chambers. It also turns out there was a conviction
for steaming so they were not merely mistaken reports they were
rather clear lies.

He jumped onto the steaming one by quoting from a report showing
that diesels could exhaust oil vapor when run extremely rich and
thus would produce a white exhaust that could be confused with
steam from a distance.

At that level the cause of death would be suffocation from oil
covered lungs.

However, even the original explanation had major problems
primarily due to the flammability of oil vapors and it condensing
inside the building making it highly flammable.

He has yet to attempt to “explain away” electrocution and vacuum
chambers but he sure does love his gas story even though the
conviction was for steaming.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Goofs Again
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:07:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-18.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>>> Accoring to the answer to question 5 on the holocaust from the
>>>>>> Simon Wiesenthal Center and crediting the encyclopedia of the
>>>>>> holocaust, it gives the number of Jews that died in the private
>>>>>> holocaust by country and by percentage in that country. This of
>>>>>> course permits us to calculate the total number of in those
>>>>>> countries, presumably at the end of the war. That gives us 9.6
>>>>>> million.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Oh, gee, I missed this one before. No wonder I couldn’t figure out
>for the life of me what Giwer was going on about. The SWC percentages
>were of _prewar_ population, not _end of the war_ population. There is no
>”presumably” about it. The SWC question quite clearly and explicitly
>reads

>>5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what
>>percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?
> ^^^^^^^

> It would be so nice if Matt Giwer would learn to read, really it
>would.

Gee you are correct. They did have enough births to increase
their population by 14% in only four years. At that rate the
Jewish population doubled ever seven years.

Are you really sure you want to stick with this position in
defending the SWC nonsense? Or would you like to fall back to
claiming like McVay that it was some unstated difference between
occupied and unoccupied?

Anything else you would like to make up?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41782 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:23:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:

But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
> like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
> shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
> pressures?

Certainly. There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
Combase until I was dropped. They even posted a bit on it here.
That is called censorship the last time I heard. It is also
called a conspiracy.

Who else would do it be a holohugger?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 06:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41791 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘I Witnessed a Gassing’
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:52:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># Have you missed that the stories have people being gassed faster
># than they could be cremated?
>
>This is obvious. It’s very easy to kill people; it takes longer
>to get rid of the corpses.
>
>This proves that, in general, no more people were gassed in
>24 hours than the number that could be incinerated during
>24 hours.

Which is a maximum of 12 per oven no matter how many are stuffed
in at one time. We have been here.

But this was obvious. In the summer of 1944, when
>the largest numbers of people were being murdered, new cremation
>facilities were used.

We have aerial photos of two of them from August 1944 with no
sign of either the Kremas being in operation or any open pit
burning. Those are the only two methods reported. We have been
over this.

># So what have you missed?
>
>Frankly, what I miss the most is an indication of your alleged
>163 IQ. I have really seen no such indication. Nor an indication
>that you can understand third grade arithmetic.

Now that you have the maximum numbers, multiply. And please, no
smoke blowing about coffins and pure, white ashes. We have been
over that also.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:41:56 PDT 1996
Article: 41803 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Relevant Quote About Nuremberg
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:04:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>From by Bradley F. Smith (no, not _that_
>Bradley Smith!), New York: 1977. page 66

>… The British wanted to simplify the evidence, take stock of what
>existed, pick the defendants, and go to trial immediately. The Americans,
>OTOH, contended that what they wanted was not merely to convict a handful
>of defendants but the spread the net as widely as possible and even
>suggested preparing an indictment of a hundred or so co-conspirators. The
>French and the Russians bounced back and forth …

>On August 13, the Soviets suggested a plan that offered a way out.
>Instead of collectively haggling about the case as a whole, the Soviets
>recommended that it be divided into four parts. They would handle the war
>crimes and crimes against humanity that had occurred in Eastern Europe,
>and the French would cover similar crimes that had taken place in the
>West. The British would prepare the case for crimes against peace, and
>the Americans would deal with conspiracy and criminal organizations. …
>In fact, the four prosecutions seized on the idea with great enthusiasm,
>and it not only served to delineate responsibility for preparing evidence,
>but became the blueprint for the actual presentations at Nuremberg. ends>

Thank you. That does explain the strange nature of the
interrogations and why these gas chambers were only found in
Eastern Europe, Russian justice. Why the Nazis were even
convicted of Katyn Woods. It would be interesting to compare the
testimony and evidence in that trial (?) to the rest of the
holocaust convictions.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:41:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41805 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:05:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 2
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From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:41:57 PDT 1996
Article: 41806 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange things on IX
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:06:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
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Strange interrogations

One of the more interesting aspects of questions asked of
the witnesses and those charged (from what purport to be
transcripts) is that they don’t pursue what one would expect to
be of serious interest to the questioner. For example where you
would expect the questioner to carefully lead a witness through
every step of what he knows about the case that was not the case.
When a witness is asked, did you see any people gassed and
the answer is yes the follow up question will be for a
description of what he saw. The answer will be something
typically morbid with contrary to science embellishments.
Questions that are not asked are, for example, can you
identify any of the people who did the gassing? Can you identify
the building? Is this a picture of the building? None of those
tedious questions that go to establishing the credibility of the
witness are asked.
Thus we are left today with many problems such as the “guess
which building” problem. There are similar problems with
witnesses to cremation, people, most everything else. Every time
the questioner gets a response that would ordinarily be explored
to establish credibility and develop further information it does
not happen.
The problem becomes that this is like no other prosecutorial
questioning we are familiar with. It is clearly not to establish
the facts of the case. It is not to gather information for other
cases. It is not clear what the purpose is other than to create
a record that is convincing only to those unfamiliar with the way
direct examinations of witnesses are conducted.

Who was in charge of these investigations?

Prior to the end of the war, the rumors had it that every
camp had a gas chamber. After the war they were only found in
territories controlled by the Russians. And of course the
Russians were solely responsible for investigation of what had
occurred in Russia.
And only the Russians found gas chambers. This was of
course the Soviet system of justice, world renown for it
fairness, honesty and integrity. Ask Alexander Solzenitzyn about
it. He spent enough time in a Gulag because of it.
The Soviet system has never been particularly interested in
a careful trial for those it has determined are guilty. Consider
that they convicted several Nazis of murdering some 3200 Polish
officers when the Soviets were the ones who had killed them. It
is not clear why anyone would have any confidence in the Soviet
justice system simply because they found so many gas chambers and
mass murders in light of their willingness to use the legal
system to murder others.
Does one unconditional reject all Soviet evidence and
trials? Of course not. But knowing what they did do they must
be held to a very much higher standard of scrutiny than that
developed by the US, French and British. And that standard of
scrutiny must be such that it would uncover the massacre of
Polish troops had that been subjected to the same standards.
That is a high standard, certainly too high for historians
to meet but without meeting this standard Soviet evidence can be
granted no credibility. After all, they did miss those
responsible for the massacre of the Polish officers.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:41:58 PDT 1996
Article: 41809 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Giwer HiLite
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:43:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>In Message-ID: <[email protected]>, the
>one and only “revisionist scholar” with an (alleged) IQ of
>163, the mighty Matt Giwer, gave the following explanation
>as to why construction documents from Auschwitz-Birkenau
>mention the gassing installations:

>

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># The construction documents do mention a “gassing cellar” and
># a “gas chamber” in the Kremas.

>One needs to ask why that one person would call it that.
>Perhaps a morbid sense of humor.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>[emphasis mine – d.k]

>

>What more can one add to this display of “revisionist”
>scholarship. There were not any gas chambers in the
>Kremas, the “leading revisionist” says, but some SS
>officer had a morbid sense of humor, so he said there
>were.

You pull one reference out of hundreds that say otherwise and
want to make some serious issue of it it being the only “uncoded”
reference. And given that clear lies have been introduced into
court and used as evidence to get people executed there is no
particular reason to take this one reference as anything
significant without one hell of a lot more than some holohugging
author having put it in a book.

>Heck, why not go on to claim Germany never invaded
>Poland. They said they did, but it was only a joke.

I would rather ask why England did not declare war on both
Germany and Russia.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:41:59 PDT 1996
Article: 41824 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Many things change
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:11:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
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This all seems very out of place with what I have always heard
about World War II.

Most all of the motivations and intentions of the Nazis in
WW II that you have heard are clearly war propaganda. Now before
you get turned off, I am not going to defend Nazi Germany in the
least. I am going primarily state facts that you should have
learned in grade school. There is more to it than I and going to
discuss in this section.
Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
declared war on Germany. There you have the way it is always
presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation
for this? If England’s reason for declaring war upon Germany was
just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
Clearly the reason for declaring war does not support the
facts of the joint Russian-German invasion of Poland. Was this
ever pointed out to you in history class? In fact it points to
Germany being the butt of a diplomatic doublecross between Russia
and England.

So what else is there to this?

In the partition of Poland, Germany was taking back part of
Germany that had been given to Poland at the end of WW I. That
land had been part of Germany for centuries.
Since the end of WW I Poland had been expelling Polish
citizens of German descent and taking their land as they were
forced to emigrate.
Poland was also expelling Polish Jews into Germany.
Germany was operating refugee camps for these people along
the Polish border.
If you want to go into Nazi antisemitism, there are still
problems. Despite all the rhetoric in the Nazi speeches there
were no actions taken by the Nazis against the Jews until a week
after every major Jewish organization in the world announced a
permanent economic boycott of all German goods and services. The
first response of the Nazis was to organize a one day boycott of
Jewish merchants in Germany. Ordinarily holocaust sources will
tell you about the Nazi boycott and imply it was permanent rather
than tell you it was one day and not tell you about the worldwide
Jewish boycott that was permanent.
After there was no lifting of the world wide Jewish boycott,
the Nazis introduced other measures against the Jews which were
primarily matters of national security and LESS severe than what
happened to Japanese Americans during WW II.
If you want to go into war preparation, there is another
clear problem we have to deal with. Germany was unprepared for
war with England.
For this we have to go back to WW I where one of England’s
greatest weapons against Germany was a naval blockade. And in
that war Germany’s greatest weapon against the naval blockade was
the submarine. At the time England selectively declared war on
Germany, Germany had exactly 27 submarines.
Despite what you might hear in the WW II documentaries, they
were being sunk as fast as they were being built. There were
never more than 29 operational submarines at any one time. The
damage you see is due to the anti-submarine warfare technology
and tactics of the day being such that a torpedo hit was the
first indication of a German submarine in the area. The sonars
were only good enough help find them after heading in the
direction of the best guess as to where the submarine was.
What this adds up to is that there was clearly no
expectation of a war with England as a result of the partition of
Poland with Russia.



From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:00 PDT 1996
Article: 41827 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: ‘I was afraid of Bothmann’
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:24:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41827 alt.usenet.kooks:24846 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:35

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>> Are you really saying that no person on the planet, not even a child,
>>>would scream in terror?
>>
>> You mean you would scream in terror. In case you have never
>>noticed it, the scream reaction is a female trait. Where have
>>you been all your life?

> If you don’t know that male children also scream,

That may be your experience as you were raised with a non-human
species.

perhaps you are
>the one who needs to answer that question. But now you admit that some
>people, at least, scream. Very good, we are making progress.

If you are really going to claim you do not remember little
(human) girls practicing screaming, you lead a very sheltered
childhood.

> Now please produce the testimony which explicitly identified screams
>as coming from adult male victims. I don’t recall any which identified
>the gender, but I do not claim to have read them all.

You should as it is reported of adult males. You don’t even read
the damned NG and yet you appeal to your ignorance as evidence.

>>>>That you would GROAN when your nervous system was paralysized?
>>
>>> Our superscientist now claims that engine exhaust paralyzes the
>>>nervous system instantly. It is a wonder he does not collapse when
>>>crossing the street near cars.
>>
>> It is reported in cyanide also.

> Excuse me, Mr. Superscientist, sir, but did you not tell us recently
>that cyanide is one product of incomplete combustion? And, as you know,
>combustion is not perfect even in a well-tuned car. Therefore by your own
>word there should be cyanide in engine exhaust. Therefore people should
>be paralyzed right and left on the street if what you said is true. Do
>you claim that this is the case?

Concentration of course as any vaguely scientifically literate
person would not have to be told.

> It would seem that you too are using your knowledge of science to
>deceive, in other words. Of course, perhaps the problem is just that you
>were lying about having any.

Doesn’t work, scientific illiterate.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41832 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:40:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07 11:42:56 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>>That being said, however, I really think it was somewhat premature of
>>>you to comment on these “testimonies” until our resident historian par
>>>excellence (aka Al “BISS” Baron) has had an opportunity to review them
>>>with his “policeman’s eye” – and offer his inimitable pronouncement to
>>>guide us all in our consideration of these “documents”. As we all
>>>know, “gruesome details” are his specialty.
>>>
>>>
>>Having read the testimony that Ingrid offers, and having not put quotation
>>marks around it, I would think that the above readers would show a little
>>more restraint and respect.

>>I would say that I have read hundreds of survivor testimonies and hundreds
>>of expellee testimonies. There are certain things that I consider
>>plausible, and there are certain things that I consider implausible. I do
>>not, for that reason, ridicule such testimonies, nor do I — at the same
>>time — make jokes about them. I certainly _have_ expressed reservations,
>>but certainly never in such words as these.

>There is no doubt that horrific atrocities were committed against the
>Germans in the latter phases of the war, and, let’s not kid ourselves, in
>large degree, but not only, by the Russians. Without commenting on the
>specific atrocities referred to in previous posts, nothing is gained by
>trying to deny them, or make light of them. Atrocities on either side are
>wrong.

>As horrible as they were however, they in no way diminish the guilt of the
>Nazi Germans for their attempt to exterminate the Jews, and other peoples.

Only collectivists (marxists, racists) see people as a group
rather than individuals. For example, if you were to make this
case of a failed attempt then it is less culpable as a failed
attempt than a successful attempt on an individual. But such
things are beyond the grasp of holohuggers.

>And they in no way are relevant to the truth of that attempt. Atrocities
>committed in war, in the heat of battle (or after it–rape and pillage), as
>abhorrent and wrong as they are, are quite another thing when compared to a
>planned and deliberate attempt–carried out methodically and
>cold-bloodedly–to exterminate an entire people. Let us not forget that.

Tell that to the Canaanites and the other -ites exterminated by
the Israelites. Those folks could have given the Nazis lessons
in extermination. At least they succeeded where the Nazis
failed.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:01 PDT 1996
Article: 41833 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s misrepresent to make a story
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:06:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07 10:08:51 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>
>> Two questions from the Wisenthal Center’s 36 questions about the
>>Holocaust.

>>7. What does the term “Final Solution” mean and what is its
>>origin?

>> Answer: The term “Final Solution” (Endl”sung) refers to
>>Germany’s plan to murder all the
>> Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference (Berlin;
>>January 20,1942)
>> where German officials discussed its implementation.

>>===

>> Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is in
>>support of previous “answers” of mass gassings. But we all know that mass
>>gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>Protocol.

>The Wannsee document says nothing about mass gassings, and the only one who
>tries to make such a connection, so he can then strike down the strawman he
>has just erected, is the Giwer-troll. Nor does the SWC make that
>connection. Only the Giwer-troll, who never stops adding dishonesty to
>vulgarity, stupidity and simple trolling.

From the SWC Q&A

6. What is a death camp? How many were there? Where were they
located?

Answer: A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration
camp with special apparatus
specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps
existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau,
Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. All were
located in Poland.

7. What does the term “Final Solution” mean and what is its
origin?

Answer: The term “Final Solution” (Endl”sung) refers to
Germany’s plan to murder all the
Jews of Europe. The term was used at the Wannsee Conference
(Berlin; January 20,1942)
where German officials discussed its implementation.

8. When did the “Final Solution” actually begin?

Answer: While thousands of Jews were murdered by the Nazis
or died as a direct result of
discriminatory measures instituted against Jews during the
initial years of the Third Reich,
the systematic murder of Jews did not begin until the German
invasion of the Soviet Union
in June 1941.

Only a liar for the holocaust can miss the connection between
gassings, murder and the Wannsee Conference.

As I noted, it is a deliberate misrepresentation by the SWC and
by all holohuggers for that matter.

>>===

>>10. How did the Germans treat those who had some Jewish blood but were not
>>classified as Jews?

>> Answer: Those who were not classified as Jews but who had some Jewish
>>blood were
>> categorized as Mischlinge (hybrids)and were divided into two groups:

>> Mischlinge of the first degree–those with two Jewish
>>grandparents;
>> Mischlinge of the second degree–those with one Jewish
>>grandparent.

>> The Mischlinge were officially excluded from membership in the Nazi
>>Party and all Party
>> organizations (e.g. SA, SS, etc.). Although they were
>>drafted into the Germany Army, they
>> could not attain the rank of officers. They were also barred from the
>>civil service and from
>> certain professions. (Individual Mischlinge were, however, granted
>>exemptions under
>> certain circumstances.) Nazi officials considered plans to sterilize
>>Mischlinge, but this was
>> never done. During World War II, first-degree Mischlinge,
>>incarcerated in concentration
>> camps, were deported to death camps.

>>===

>> Here we have a claim that a sterilization plan was “considered” when we
>>know it was part of the Wannsee Protocol without
>>distinction between it and work camps as part of the plan.

>> It is unclear why there would be such clear misrepresentation unless
>>there is a need for it.

>What is unclear is why the Giwer-troll keeps spouting this nonsense when it
>has been disproved dozens of times by citing original documents. One would
>think he would be better served concentrating his energies on apprehending
>nefarious honkers at large and hiring a lawyer.

As you know there have been no such postings. I would suggest
you rather find something better to do with your life than be a
liar for the holocaust.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41834 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:45:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 12:47:28 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) writes:
>>
>>> The building is NOT a hexagon. ONLY the Hall of
>>> Rememberance is.
>>
>>>So, only one room in the entire building is six-sided, and that
>>>proves that the entire museum is dedicated only to the Jewish
>>>victims. I suppose the actual exhibits and information do not count
>>>for anything.
>>
>> And of course you read it was an architectural requirement and it
>>purpose. While in the Hall of Rememberance, what does six remind
>>you of? Which six are you remembering? Or does it have no
>>meaning at all?

> From the specifications I read here (and we all know what is written in
> a.r is not necessarily full and accurate), it seems as though there was
> a design requirement put forward to symbolically make use of hexagons
> in the design of the museum. What I did not pull from what was written
> here was just what the hexagon was supposed to symbolize.

But you would rather ignore what it was clearly stated that it
was to symbolize.

> If I were to guess, I would guess that it symbolizes the Star of David,
> rather then the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

We know that ONLY the six million [sic] Jews are to be referred
to as the holocaust and that the others are not according to the
SWC.

> I would be interested in being pointed to the primary design documents
> (or secondary sources about them) if anyone here knows of where they
> are located.

Sorry about that. You lose again. HS Holocaust MM and according
to the SWC the term holocaust only refers to the 6 million Jews.

I have the preponderance of evidence from original sources on
this one. You ain’t got jack.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:03 PDT 1996
Article: 41838 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 05:41:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 08 12:43:09 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard James Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>Rich Green wrote:
>>
>>>>I agree with
>>>>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid. It is, however, a Lewis
>>>>acide, but that’s beside the point.
>>
>>>OK, I’ll buy that. And after reading this far in the thread I agree with
>>>you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is
>>>about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is,
>>>but…..
>>
>> Anything to prevent discussion that the Polish report is
>>worthless.

>Indeed Mr. Giwer has done everything in his power to avoid such
>discussion.

I have always raised the issue that it contains only one data
point. What have you done to find a second data point?

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41849 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s misrepresent to make a story
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:54:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07 9:56:30 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Here we have an implication about the Wannsee Conference that is
>>>>in support of previous “answers” of mass gassings. But we all
>>>>know that mass gassings are not discussed in the Wannsee
>>>>Protocol.
>>
>>> And we all know that mass _gassing_ is not mentioned in the Wiesenthal
>>>Center text above, either. So it is not clear what point you are trying
>>>to make here.
>>
>> I originally simply made the point that there were about 1.5
>>million unaccounted for people. I was simply pointing out how
>>many others have apparently vanished without a trace.

> This in no way addresses your claim that the SWC implied the Wannsee
>minutes supported mass _gassing_. Please explain, using commonly accepted
>meanings of English words, how the SWC’s words imply that mass gassings
>are discussed in the Wannsee Protocol.

> Your attempt to pretend you were saying something other than what you
>were clearly saying is rather pathetic.

If you had ever bothered to read the previous answers you would
know what I am talking about. I will be happy to post all 36 of
them to you if you can not look at them on your own.

>>> So please show us where in the Wannsee Protocol a final resolution of
>>>the differing opinions was reached. I can find no mention in the document
>>>as to whether the sterilization that Stuckart PROPOSED was actually
>>>ADOPTED or not. With tentative language like “proposed,” “possible
>>>solutions,” “should be,” “possibilities,” “advocates the opinion,” all
>>>they seem to be doing is CONSIDERING it, just as the Wiesenthal Center
>>>said. Please show us where the sterilization plan was formally adopted
>>>and implemented. Quote the words, whether from the Wannsee Protocol or
>>>any other source you can find, that show a clear adoption of a
>>>sterilization plan even vaguely resembling what is discussed in the
>>>Wannsee Protocol, let alone an implementation of it. I would be most
>>>interested to see it.
>>
>> “Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted
>>
>>from evacuation ^b will be^b sterilized in order to prevent any
>>offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood
>>once and for all. Such sterilization will be voluntary. But it
>>is required to remain in the Reich. The sterilized “person of
>>mixed blood” is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he
>>was previously subjected.”
>>
>> What does WILL BE mean in holospeak?

> It means just what you think it means. However, in my text which you
>dishonestly cut out, I pointed out the reasons why I conclude that the
>only honest interpretation is that the “will be” was a proposal only, not
>an announcement of settled policy. The “will be” text was immediately
>preceded with a tentative-sounding “theoretically,” and followed by people
>talking as if the issue was still open for discussion. Why should someone
>_propose_ implementing a policy which has already been _definitely_
>adopted for implementation?

> Now, do you suppose you can deal with my arguments rather than
>dishonestly cutting them out and only looking at one line in the text? AS
>YOU KNOW, you took the words “will be” out of context, carefully ignoring
>all the “proposed” and “possibilities” around it.

> And according to Matt Giwer, only a lying holohugger would do
>something like that.

Right on there. You “will be” assassinated is merely a proposal
and of no legal consequence. Japanese-Americans will be interred
is merely a proposal. Those who break the law will be prosecuted
is merely a proposal.

It is no longer a surprise to me the lengths to which the
holohuggers will go to preserve their religious beliefs.

From [email protected] Sat Jun 8 12:42:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41860 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:03:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <