Giwer Matt, 1-1996 – p4

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37895 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 04:14:20 GMT
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:

>[snip]

>>I am going to come out on Matt’s side THIS TIME, because the

>Well, no doubt the Giwer-troll needs all the support he can get. And
>with you on his side, surely he will need nothing else.

>>Even though I think some his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>>ESPECIALLY here. I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>>around I will say so, just to be fair. And in return, his opposite
>>numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective.
>>That means everybody, please?

>As difficult as it might be for you to imagine, Mr. Ehrlich, many
>discussions (and facsimiles thereof) which take place in this
>newsgroup preceded your gracing us with your presence. Giwer’s
>”arguments” _have_ been given their hearing many times over. It has
>been his own ignorant and boorish behaviour which has resulted in
>reasonable people choosing to refrain from their customarily
>invective-free responses.

A custom that has yet to be manifest.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37896 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 05:45:27 GMT
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What was the holocaust?
First there is the fact of World War II. 32 million
civilians vanished without a trace.
Second there is the fact holocaust that some 12 million of
these untraceable people are presumed to have died because of
deliberate actions by the Nazi SS either in camps or killed by
groups roaming the countryside shooting people. This is the part
called the holocaust. Unfortunately there is no clear way to
determine how many untraceable were in the murdered category.
Third, there are the stories about the holocaust. These are
where the problems lie. These stories, though oft-repeated are
not subject to critical review as critical review that does not
come to the predetermined correct conclusion is defamed as
anti-semitic and neonazi. This of course begs the question of
when they were ever critically reviewed to determine the
“correct” conclusion from them.

The question becomes, why would people lie about what
happened to them? There are many likely answers to that
question.

o Motivation
Plain and simple revenge against the
people who had imprisoned them for years and
treated them in an absolutely shameful
manner.

o Mistakes
In any prison, rumor is the fastest
moving and most erronious thing there is. The
repetition of common camp rumors as the truth
is certainly to have been expected.

o Physical condition
Although there is question as to the
physical conditions in the camps, were they in
fact as bad as commonly recounted then these
people were on the point of starvation and
that common induces psychosis particularly if
it has been long term.

Certainly there are other possible explanations for
false information to have been generated but these three are
sufficient to indicate there is a clear need for physical
evidence for these statements to support. This testimony can not
be accepted as true without physical evidence.

What was the plan for the Holocaust?

Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is
the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level
official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it
discusses two plans, before and after the conference.
The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to
change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This
is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that
addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note. In
other words we have a plan for in fact 11 million Jews on the
presumption of winning the war against Russia, yet not one word
regarding anyone else being involved in it, not one homosexual,
Slav, gypsy, no one. If this in fact is the plan it is very
clearly not a complete plan.
The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be
moved out of Europe. The is referred to as “to the east” and by
the curious word “emigrated” in the common translation. No death
camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe,
certainly a violation of human rights but that is it.
After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister.
The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death
by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a
deliberate plan to kill people introduced but by this means
only.
In between the description of these two plans there is what
appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well
in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have
required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at
that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than
for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan.
But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention
whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to
death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65
to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar
provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I. But again no
mention of German homosexuals or gypsies or the infirm or
anyone else.
The conclusion of course is that although this document is
often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned
to exterminate the Jews from the very beginning, it is clearly
nothing of the kind. That plan in even the worst case
interpretation was developed in late 1941.

What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the
information we have comes from eyewitnesses. Unfortunately these
witnesses are not particularly credible in that they tell stories
that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and
otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best. See
the reasons above why this might have happened.
Another aspect of these stories appears to be that they are
coached. It is as though they started off with “tell me a story
about gas chambers” and then the person told what he imagined
they would be like. They appear to have a common starting point,
that of delousing chambers and then deviate into imagination.
Additionally the most common witness testimony used to
support these stories is only from the prosecution without
indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It
is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases.
This means you should keep in mind when you read these
eyewitnesses that they rarely give the context of the statement.
That means you do not know if it is a witness or a defendent or
even if the statement was under oath. And if under oath you
never are give the crossexamination questions and answers. In
other words you are reading the case for the prosecution if it is
a trial and if under oath.
You are not being told in the least thing about the context
of the statement. Even if made in court you are not being told
that much less the disposition of the case. A “not guilty” in
the face of these testimonies would speak volumes for how the
court viewed their credibility. But clearly there had to be some
not guilty verdicts else the courts themselves become highly
suspect.

One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that
contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered
credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were
killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks
when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in
discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in
testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing
causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as
turning off the gravity.

What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the
deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that
millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work
camps and that very few survived. But what little physical
evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being
force fit into a preconceived conclusion.
For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at
Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that
had to have occurred to satisfy its original 4 million body count
and the reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the
effort is to find features of a morgue converted into a gas
chamber to perform this function. This effort has problems right
>from the start.
Currently the number is down to about 1.2 million gassed at
Auschwitz but still the hunt continues. The likely suspect is
now four buildings rather than one building. This reduction in
the number gassed by more than three and the increase in gassing
facilities by four has reduced the total problem by a factor of
more than 12. Yet back when the problem was twelve times worse
those pointing out the problem were called antisemitic and nazis
as they are today.
First we note that these builldings are partially
underground and that the walls above ground are bermed, banked
with earth. We also note that they have steel reinforced, flat
concrete roofs. Yet in the same compounds there are two other
buildings without these constructions. They use simple peaked
roofs which are cheaper to construct.
Although the partially underground construction can be
explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use
as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it
makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the
more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas
chamber. In this case “unclear” means there is not one reason in
the world for the more expensive construction method.
Other possible design features include an airtight door
(found 200 feet away years later), a ventilation system, and
either two or four small holes in the roof. The second two are
potential in that there exists at the moment exactly one
conceptual drawing that is not a blueprint and the blower that
drove the ventilation system has not been found so we have only a
general idea of its capacity.
Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to
a gas chamber have always asked, “What else could it be?” when in
fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most
obvious is a bomb shelter.
There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the
compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping
the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls
exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of
course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin
your whole day.
But in addition to structural damage protection there is
damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would
protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage
eardrums and sinuses causing deafness and cranial bleeding. And
thus the airtight door to keep that pressure wave out of the
building.
Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed
air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust
for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal
as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing
creatures.
The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know
what design features of large scale gas chamber would be.
Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the
subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such
textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the
first and only large scale gas chambers in the world.
Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting
an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged
to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial.
Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or
experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how
developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and
incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of
a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people.
But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are
being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual
drawing that is a gas chamber. The clear admission is that they
are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want it
to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses.
And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of
another purpose, that of a bomb shelter.
Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter
hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a
morgue in its primary function and gained a secondary purpose by
the modifications in its construction.
Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three
structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp.
Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the
evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still
there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed. It was
simply a bit harder to get at.
Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be
of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter.

* * * * *

Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although
the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is
officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at
Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a
space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for
its lesser number.
The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to
have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by
being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony
to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not
mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not
believe in those methods any longer.
Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest
of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down
every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found
today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind.
At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is
the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon
monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony
regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame
as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly
nor did they have the same release mechanisms.
Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but
what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them.
Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that
would have been needed to make them work. For example, the
engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the
engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the
engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron
work they are mounted upon the chassis of course.
And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And
the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts
for the fuel tanks?
And then all of this in a specially built building to
protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why
these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used
without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and
reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary
analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges
and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly
complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines.
But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the
camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by
8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those
unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a
football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your
average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of
these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in
fact.
Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly
burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of
the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb. per square
foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A
claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone
fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after
being buried for so many years. That is it.
But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to
have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be
collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for
burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an
accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself
why you would bother.
If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the
problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a
claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying
effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got
to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat
did not burn the first time around but was required to be
reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the
reheating equipment of course.
Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat
in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat
and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any
BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not
have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the
eyewitnesses tell this story.
It is contrary to not only physical law but common
experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot
bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or
get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and
see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over.
A first order approximation of what is described to have happened
is quite easy.

So why would these stories be similar in major features?

As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would
know. “That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if
we don’t work hard enough or get sick.”
And why would people tell each other stories like this? I
really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost
stories around the campfire is such a popular tradition. I
simply
know the latter is.
But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story
they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening
features even though they are no more credible than the original
stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and
occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next
embellishes the already embellished previous story.
And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the
motivation to separate known fact from stories given that
sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least
challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term
starvation and the likelihood of protein deficit psychosis and
there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from
story.

So how could so many die so quickly?

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltynitzen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post antibiotic world was
seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentery would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food standards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations.
There is very little impartial secular history on these stories.
At this point one can only speculate as to why.
The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing
these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace
as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively
going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful.
Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting
that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening.
The “everyone knew” stories are to implicate the average
German citizen at the time. The “no one knew” stories are to
excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the
believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either
story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the
quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi.
As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories,
and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them
for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and
social nature to them. These stories help define the group
identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the
same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The
more family one has lost the more Jewish one is.
As to the insistence upon gassing, it makes the camps
expected but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between
a
hope for survival and certain doom.

Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than
reported?

Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz,
Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her
last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz
recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian
advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another
camp to the west where she died in another infirmary in the
Belsen camp.
On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to
to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly
died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to
infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to
work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a
skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in
some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an
effort to save her life.
The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived
typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary.
This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they
were not able to select a future famous person for special
treatment.
Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were
in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the
diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close
living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that
happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a
few minor ones. This is wholly at odds with what is to be
expected under the reported conditions.

So what is your interest in all of this?

I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of
debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism,
religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse
among others. This is the “largest” or most publically
challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I
have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is
the same, my disregard for personal feelings is the same, my
calling them as I see them attitude is the same.
And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others
is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one’s own
cherished beliefs. But the susceptibility of such beliefs do not
change with either the subject or who holds the belief.
Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same
methods. The results of the application of those methods are the
same.

What gas was used?

The substance used was Zyklon B. This is hydrogen cyanide,
a very lethal substance, in which what we would today commonly
call kitty litter was soaked and formed into pea sized pellets.
This permitted it to be used as a general purpose fumigant. So
lets start at the beginning.
Hydrogen cyanide changes from a liquid to a gas at room
temperature. However if it is kept under pressure it will remain
liquid as does propane and butane. On the other end of the
spectrum are the targets of fumigation, mammals such as rats and
insects. While mammals are very susceptible to cyanide poisoning
insects are not. It takes a much higher concentration for a much
longer period of time to kill insects.
It was invented in the 1920s in a time when there were no
insecticides. The novelty of the invention was that by releasing
it from pellets it would release over a long period of time.
Thus it could be used to kill insects in addition to rats. It
was a single substance that could kill anything in a building.
But this slow release is what works against the stories told
about its use against people. Now it may have been used but it
does not fit the stories told about it. For example, slightly
above room temperature, it takes six hours to release all of this
gas. At freezing it takes thirty hours.
Yet the stories report the deaths of hundreds of people in
times on the order of ten to fifteen minutes. There are ways to
make estimates of the real time it would take and that certainly
can be done. But when they are done we find different problems,
those being with the claims of the thousands of people per hour
that are supposed have been gassed. It takes much longer.
The only way around these problems is to assume massive
quantises were used for each gassing but this is not reported in
the stories.
But we can see from here the entire point of Zyklon B was
that it was designed for slow release and yet the stories require
quick release. There are other aspects of the stories that
require or at least strongly imply that these pellets stopped
releasing the gas in a half hour or so whereas that is contrary
to the way it was designed to work.

Why all the emotion over this subject?

There has grown up a category of true believers around every
detail of the holocaust as it has become codified over the years.
They literally see themselves as defending the truth. As such
any aspect of it that is questioned brings an emotional response.
However, rather than acting as defenders they respond by
attacking. They do not respond by defending the questioned
details, rather they respond by calling names like anti-semitic
and neo-nazi.
If asked to explain this response they will state that
everyone who has ever questioned was really trying to gain a
foothold against their truth and has eventually revealed himself
to be as they describe. Unfortunate for this explanation is that
such an approach could only be justified if in fact there had
been in the past a large number of persons who had been dealt
with sincerely and there have not been. The persons they can
point to are those who have made no secret of their neo-nazi and
anti-semitic leanings from the beginning.
The fallacious is reasoning is “neo-nazis deny the holocaust
therefore everyone who questions is a neo-nazi.” That isn’t even
a good fallacy as it fails on two points.
Next we find that these “defenders” vary from the very rare
professional historian or scientist, down to the very common
person untrained in any thing who belives what his is told to
belive. They all attack with the same ferocity and conviction.
It is difficult to see what motivates professionals to act
unprofessional or amateurs act as though they were imbued with
the absolute truth.

Are there any particular problems with Zyklon-B having been used?

One primary item is Zyklon-B itself. The story of gassings
came first and then there was a search for the gas. Several of
the stories report Zyklon-B as a blue chalklike material about
the size of peas. The problem is that although HCN does form a
blue compound with iron and chemically related metals, the
carrier material was kitty litter.
Kitty litter, if you have seen it, is grey. It is primarily
calcium oxide and although calcium is a metal it is not
chemically related to iron. It would not appear to be blue.
Thus we have two possibilities. The story is false or
Zyklon-B was not the substance used. In either case, we are back
to not knowing what gas was used or in fact if there was a gas
used at all.

But has not all of this been cut and dried from the beginning?

Absolutely not although it is often presented as though it
is. As above there was a search for the gassing agent which was
named as Zyklon B but the description is not that of Zyklon B.
Similarly there has been a search for the rooms or buildings
which were the gas chambers. At the moment the search has now
settled upon the morgues that were adjacent to the crematoria at
Auschwitz-Birkenau but this was not always the case. In the past
there has been equally certainty that it was other rooms and
buildings.
The reason for these searches is that the descriptions of
what is being looked for are the conflicting testimonies of the
eyewitnesses. It is quite impossible to find something that
matches all of the descriptions at once. Therefore it has been
an exercise in finding the least incredible match to the
descriptions.
For example the supposed first test of Zyklon B (which does
not match the description of Zyklon B) is described as a
detention cell. That is fine but included in that description is
that statement that after the test the gassings were moved to an
abandoned farmstead of which there is no trace and to which there
are no other references. Thus there is a serious question as to
the credibility of this testimony in the first place.
The third place (or second depending upon what you count) is
some nondescript “bunker” near the existing crematorium at
Auschwitz. Whether or not this was ever even identified is in
serious question in that Poland has converted the entire complex
into a museum and this bunker was “reconstructed” into a gas
chamber.
The search for those at Treblinka are even more interesting.
Along time ago in a country far, far away there existed a massive
extermination facility on a railroad siding. It covered some 40
acres, had ten gas chambers and an unspecified number of
crematoria. The gas for the chambers was carbon monoxide
produced by diesel engines. In alternate stories no one was
allowed near it and the locals came up to the fence to trade with
those inside.
Two million people were supposed to have been gassed and
cremated and had their remains buried here, buried in a five acre
plot of ground. Where is it today? So the story goes the Nazis
dismantled every building, removed every foundation and footing,
dispersed it god knows where, and planted a grove a trees.
The site was probed and core samples were taken. Some bone
and bone ash fragments were found. (Inexplicably, the report
claims that human hair was found after years of burial and
exposure to the soil.)
But there is a problem with these bone fragments and ash.
Not enough was found. Remember this place was supposed to have
dealt with two million people. At two pounds of bone ash each,
that is four million pounds. All of this was supposed to have
been buried on a five acre plot of ground. That is 800,000
pounds per acre, roughly 14 pounds per square foot. Of course
this presumes complete cremation to modern standards.

Did not Hoess confess his crimes?

This is the claim and it is, pardon me for saying so, a
quite incredible claim. Here is a man accused of murdering over
a million people in a four year period and when facing execution
simply for running the camp, feels remorse and confesses all.
Lets say it is possible but note that there are other things in
need of explanation.
For example, he was not questioned with a rubber hose. He
was questioned with a horse whip, literally. At one point he was
beaten so severely that he was incoherent for three days.
His incoherence may explain some of the aspects of his
confession such as his mention of a non-resistant camp.
Even more interesting is that this confession was in fact
his death warrant. Yet there was only one month between his
trial and his execution so it must have been written before his
trial. But it was not introduced into evidence at his trials.
Trials plural that is. He was acquitted on the first
charges, that of gassing civilians for lack of evidence. He was
convicted on the second charge murder Russian commissars. For
this he was hung.
This little bit of history is one of the least remembered as
it is the most difficult to explain. His accusers had had
complete control of Auschwitz-Birkenau for over two years before
his trial. Yet for lack of physical evidence in the camp they
were unable to convict him of gassing people.
Yet we are to believe he had written a confession to gassing
people. Also this confession is strangely absent of the where
and the how of gassing making the identification of the buildings
used the current guessing game. Had he actually gone so far as a
full confession one would have expected that some time in the
nearly two years he was in prison that someone would have asked
him which buildings were used.

Are there other problems?

The stories have the sound of the ghost stories told around
the campfires at night. Take for example Elie Wiesel, the
prisoner who appears to have been given the grand tour of all the
camps in Eastern Europe narrowly avoiding death in all of them.
In every camp he heard the story of people who went away and were
never heard of again.
Yet of course he would also be a teller of those stories.
Even more interesting, he was moved from camp to camp. What was
said about him in when he left a camp? That he was taken away
and never heard of again, perhaps?
And as to campfire stories, is not each more grisly,
gruesome, horrible than the last?

“You think we have it bad with gassing.
Why when I was at Bergen-Belsen they would
flay you alive and throw you in a barrel of
lime if you got sick.”
“Oh, Ho! You think you had it bad…”

Also we have the “those buildings are where they send you if
you don’t work hard.” We can even see this one encouraged
by those who ran the camp with a knowing smile and a “you know
what will happen to you” admonition, very like the Jewish soap
routine.
If we take the stories upon face value we have survivors at
the work part of the camp never seeing but knowing what happened
at the extermination part of the camp. Of course they tell the
wide range of stories that would be expected. These are
apparently stories based upon variations of the camp rumors.
Then there are the strange cases of the sonderkommandos.
These were inmates who report themselves to have been the workers
who carried the bodies out of the gas chambers. Why in heavens
name would anyone confess to such a thing?
Rather ask yourself why anyone would confess to any crime,
even the most horrible, if they had not in fact committed it?
It is standard procedure for the police in any serious crime to
withhold some factor that only the perpetrator could know. That
is to be able to quickly identify those who call to confess to
any crime.
It is absolutely nothing unusual to have people confess to
even the most grotesque string of serial killings you can
imagine. It is as common a joke on the police shows as coffee
and donuts for exactly the same reason.
But could there have been other reasons? The camp system
like others used a system of trustees, in less polite terms,
collaborators. They received better treatment than other inmates
for doing the dirty work.
Also these people were a complete cross-section of the
society from which they came, from the top of society to the scum
of the earth. There were in fact in all of the camps every form
of gang control that exists in every prison including boys
finding men to protect them while they were pimped.
Our view of camp life is quite skewed by images of Stalag 19
and Sergeant Schultz. Of course it was much worse and a work
camp but the idea of nothing but victims with all other human
proclivities in abeyance for the duration is hardly the view of
human beings. It is very inhuman not to establish a pecking
order with the SS on top and the most powerful inmates next in
line.
Some may suggest otherwise but remember these people were
pulled from all walks of live and from all over Europe without
even a common language. Any prior social order was completely
destroyed and no way to establish one. In such circumstances,
force creates the social order.
So beyond the normal proclivity of some people to confess to
anything we also have people who would rather not have what they
really did in the camps well known. But of course maybe there
really were sonderkommandos. There is a simple way to tell.
A sonderkommando would have had months to years of intimate
experience with the exact operation of the gas chambers. They
would have the routine down cold having witnessed in many times a
day, day in and day out. Therefore their testimony should be
essentially the identical.
Unfortunately their stories are no more consistent than any
of the other stories. Were they really sonderkommandos? Was
there in fact any work for sonderkommandos to perform?
But even ignoring the impossible things reported there were
in fact very few of these people have ever been found even though
any estimate of the “extermination” schedule requires a couple of
dozen per chamber and four such chambers were recovered by the
Russians at Auschwitz-Birkenau alone. Imaginative explanations
are introduced to explain this, such as the SS shot them before
leaving but that fails to explain those that are still alive.
Occasionally we are treated to pictures and stories of the
SS doing the dirty work but these stories are never juxtaposed
with those of sonderkommandos doing the dirty work. One has to
honestly ask of there were in fact sonderkommandos and if so just
what were their real duties? At the minimum they do not appear
to be well trained in gas chamber operations.

Did not so many of the SS members confess?

Of course they did as did Hoess. But let us go back to 1945
and look at standard police techniques even in the good old US of
A for a moment. Rubber hose, hot lights, for 24 hours straight
with no food or water. Let me ask you, would the Allies
discovering the camps in the condition they did and with all the
stories of gassings have done any less? It’s was a bit more than
the usual, “We know you robbed that liquor store,” kind of thing.
There is additional evidence in that their stories, the
people who actually confessed to doing all of this gassing, do
not tell consistent stories either. The usual explanation for
this is that procedures changed over time but that does not
explain why they tell stories of things that in the same league
as turning off the gravity.
Yet here were the people in charge of the sonderkommandos
and their stories give all the appearances of “how shall we do it
today?” as the manner in which they conducted the gassings. More
clearly what it indicates is telling the interrogators what they
want to hear. And the beatings will stop or there will be a
swallow of water or five minutes sleep if the interrogators are
satisfied. Of course the interrogators were “discovering” new
things on their own and each had a different idea of what to
discover so there was no conspiracy to discover a particular
version of the story.
But I have deliberately mislead you into thinking I was
talking about American interrogation methods. These mass
extermination gas chambers are all in territories liberated by
the Russians. I am in fact talking about Russian interrogation
methods. And not just any Russian interrogation methods but
those they would have used against Nazis. And not just any Nazis
but the SS kind of Nazi, a particularly hated breed.
Up until about ten years ago when they convicted a person of
anti-Soviet activity their entire family denounced them. That
was
not loyalty to the Soviet Union but rather the only way for the
family to keep out of the Gulags. “Herr Hoess, confess, or we
will find your wife and children guilty and hang them along side
you.” Russian justice has never been particularly subtle.
The only other famous “confession” is that of Gerstein which
was obtained by the French. Unfortunately two days after he
signed his confession he died and his body was lost. It rather
appears that some hoses were not rubber.
Does that sound out of character for the French? After the
war DeGaulle declared that it would be “too hard” to punish all
of the collaborators. A week of “bring out your dead” was
declared. It is still next to impossible to have a public
discussion of this even in France and it is next to unknown in
the rest of the world.
I do not want to leave the Americans out of it. One of the
more infamous interrogation techniques was to bring a prisoner
into a room that was decorated with the mixed trappings of a
priest and a judge with a prepared confession and a pen. This
was stopped as soon as it came to the attention of the senior
officers but there is no indication of what took its place.
So far I have not come across anything on British methods.


—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:56 PDT 1996
Article: 37963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:40:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:39:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: Certainly the Jewish immigrants to Europe knew the Christian
>: attitude towards other religions. Certainly they had heard the
>: proud stories of Christians saints who had wiped out other
>: religions in one way or another.

>(1) When did the first Jews arrive in Europe?
>(2) When did the first Christians arrive in Europe?

There were a few Jewish settlements in Greece and Turkey which
were considered the Hellenist part of the Med, not Europe early
in the first century. They are not the ancestors of European
Jews. The direct ancestors are those who migrated up through the
Eastern Empire behind the Muslims starting in the 9th century.

About that time there were only a few pockets of non-Christian
religions left in Europe mainly the Norse and some of the
Russias.

It was also long after feudalism and it fealty requirements
including the same religion and same variant of that religion had
been established.

And of course at least three people will come back claiming I
have no idea what I am talking about while refusing to post what
they believe to be the real history.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:56 PDT 1996
Article: 37964 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:25:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:27:35 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ab.general:9437 can.general:77892 alt.revisionism:37964 van.general:8566

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>That’s not true. It is agaionst the law to use the postal service to
>>distribute hate mail

>In totalitarian states maybe.

You mean like Canada?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37965 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:49:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]m.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 5:49:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>JamesM4748 wrote:
>
># Mat, white trash, is white trash, and you are white trash. period.
># nothing more, nothing less. a loser in the game of life. a punk

>This is, unfortunately, true. And the saddest thing is that Giwer is
>no teenage punk; he’s 50 years old.

51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster. When do
you expect to be able to retire?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:58 PDT 1996
Article: 37980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:21:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:20:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>> Holohuggers also substitute mantras for reason, pretend their
>>>documentation is in fact documentation when it is mere repetition
>>>of hearsay, and generally act like sanctimonious creationists
>>>with as little regard for reason and honesty.
>>>
>>Yeah, and the Nizkor FAQ is not far removed from the Q & A that I used to
>>get in catechism, if I may speak openly! Nizkor Catechism …. hmmm
>>
>>I am going to come out on Matt’s side THIS TIME, because the
>>conventionalists are acting like True Believers with the constant
>>repetition of the Nizkorite Creed as revealed by the Prophet McVay.

> You came late to this dance. I think you really should research the
>matter a little more before coming to a conclusion.

The Nizkorite Creed is a quite good way of describing it.

>>Reminds me of a bunch of kids trying to break a kid who is different by
>>repeating the same silly rhyme. Maybe they think that Matt will start to
>>cry and go home.

> As Matt himself so often says, the audience is other people, not the
>person whose post is being responded to. One cannot have an honest
>argument with someone who lies about what you said, lies about what he
>himself said, never produces any documentation for his assertions (but
>always demands documentation), rejects expert sources, etc. That is
>an utterly dishonest way of conducting oneself in a discussion. And that
>is the way Mr. Giwer has behaved.

> He has gone so far as to insinuate that I have deceptively edited his
>words, even though the DejaNews archive proves the accuracy of my quote!

You have in fact misrepresented what I have said many times. You
have introduced nonsense as fact at every opportunity.

>>Even though I think some his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>>ESPECIALLY here. I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>>around I will say so, just to be fair.

> I’ve already caught him screwing around. Many times. How much
>documented evidence would you like?

Please.

>>And in return, his opposite
>>numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective.
>>That means everybody, please?

> I will happily answer his arguments, should he ever make any honest
>ones. And Mr. Giwer is no slouch in the invective department.

> Let’s take his bomb shelter theory. Both I and others have already
>pointed out flaws in it – e.g., if the gas-tight door (which Giwer
>arbitrarily suggested could be “air-tight,” though that was not the word
>the SS used) could just as easily be a feature of a bomb shelter, and the
>concrete roof was needlessly expensive for a morgue, why did the _larger_
>morgue with the concrete roof have no air-tight door suitable for a bomb
>shelter? Why are there neither letters nor testimonies about such use for
>either of the rooms? To these I will add: if the corpse chutes were
>eliminated to improve the usefulness as a bomb shelter, why were they not
>added back into the design of the room which was _not_ made into a bomb
>shelter, but (ostensibly) just a morgue? Giwer’s theory does not address
>these points.

We were over this many times and you REFUSED to answer my
questions on the subject. At which time I dropped the exchange
as you insisted upon making it nothing more than your stupid
reiterations of the same things.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:48:59 PDT 1996
Article: 37981 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:26:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:25:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) writes…
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>[snip]
>>
>>Even though I think some his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>>ESPECIALLY here. I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>>around I will say so, just to be fair. And in return, his opposite
>>numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective.
>>That means everybody, please?

> Sorry, you walked in on the middle of this dance and missed the opening
> few numbers. There were several months where discussion was attempted.
> Giwer simply twisted responses and spewed out trolling jabs. The
> current state of affairs grew from that.

> I will discuss the Holocaust forever with Tommy or others who will
> actually discuss it. Giwer twists it to continue argument. I have no
> interest in feeding that psychosis.

Which of course is a clear falsification of what happened.

I was clearly called a nazi and an antisemite for questioning
anything contrary to the Nizkor Creed. There were ZERO jabs
before that as I was specifically waiting for what I knew would
come before using any of them and very carefully refrained from
using any of them until I was called the above names.

But of course you holohuggers will claim otherwise. And you
folks even have your nazi-like files on me at Nizkor. How
JDL-like.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:41:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:39:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>If you mix Birkenau with Treblinka or Sobibor, I can understand that
>>>you’re puzzled. Between these two camps, the testimonies aren’t the
>>>same. And your posts are different of those of another deniers. But it
>>>doesn’t prove that deniers doesn’t exist.

>>”deniers don’t exist”? When pointing out problems with gassing
>>stories is considered the same as there were no camps and then as
>>positive proof of being a “denier” and therefore a positive proof
>>of the denial of the existance of camps it is quite clear where
>>the circular logic begins and ends.

>The deniers still exist.

So fucking what? Is it a crime? A sin? Immoral? Fattening?

If you say that several hundred testimonies
>are false, that several hundred of papers were faked, you’re a true
>denier. Don’t worry, your honor of denier remains intact.

I don’t know about them. I discuss what is posted here.

>> More interestingly,

>No more, it’s of no interest. It’s sufficient.

But answer the question, SO WHAT?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: which buildings for gassing
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:45:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:43:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> This is of course a minor point but why in the 22 months Rudolph
>>Hoess was under arrest did no one think to ask him which
>>buildings were used for gassing?
>>
>> Why is not his 120 book the definitive reference to answer all
>>questions about A-B?
>>
> Because the tribunals did not want any details. The more details
>given the more there is to raise questions.

It is sort of like Pilate asking What is truth and turning before
he received an answer.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:01 PDT 1996
Article: 37987 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:57:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 6:57:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Danny) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>> It has been over a week now and the subject of ramifications of
>>diesel exhaust looking like steam, that is the gas chambers
>>becoming saturated with oil and being potential fuel air bombs
>>while in operation, appears to have fallen into the “too hard”
>>category for the holohuggers to deal with.

> No. It is simply that people tired of playing rhetorical games with
> you.

Actually what happened was that it was dropped completely and an
attempt was made to focus upon the core samples the found a few
bone fragments.

And NOW the MANTRA!!!!!

> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
> is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he
> has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
> of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
> contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
> emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
> himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
> that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond.
> For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

How was that MANTRA, Folks? Don’t you feel inspired?

You still haven’t answered the mail.

>> Absent this explanation it has to be accepted that witnesses
>>claiming people were being steamed alive at these camps were in
>>fact lying, or perhaps being creative is a more acceptable term
>>to use.

> It was pointed out a long time ago here that the people who made the
> steam claims were observing the camp from the outside and were guessing
> at what was going on on the inside. Obviously they guessed wrong on
> this point. Since 1946 no one has claimed that there were deaths by
> steaming.

Suddenly they became reliable in 1946? But then millions of
pounds of bone ash have disappeared haven’t they? BTW, if bone
fragments, then even more millions of pounds of bones have
disappeared without a trace.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:02 PDT 1996
Article: 37988 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:05:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:07:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>M. Giwer wrote:

> It has been over a week now and the subject of ramifications of
>diesel exhaust looking like steam, that is the gas chambers
>becoming saturated with oil and being potential fuel air bombs
>while in operation, appears to have fallen into the “too hard”
>category for the holohuggers to deal with.

> Absent this explanation it has to be accepted that witnesses
>claiming people were being steamed alive at these camps were in
>fact lying, or perhaps being creative is a more acceptable term
>to use.
>*******

>I think “lying” fits well. “Blatantly” ought to be in there somewhere.

>There’s another subtle distinction between smoke and steam that every
>human picks up on, even if at a subconscious level. Steam dissipates
>quickly, going only few feet into the air before disappearing. Smoke
>lingers on. You will never confuse the two, takes no expertise, just one
>of those built-in perceptual things.

But then of course they were lying about steam but not lying
about those vanished diesels engines and all the vanished bones
and/or calcium ash and all the buildings and all the foundations.

But I sure would have liked to have been around to see the first
backfire.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:02 PDT 1996
Article: 37990 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:17:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:19:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>DvdThomas wrote:

># There’s another subtle distinction between smoke and steam that every
># human picks up on, even if at a subconscious level. Steam dissipates
># quickly, going only few feet into the air before disappearing. Smoke
># lingers on. You will never confuse the two, takes no expertise, just
># one of those built-in perceptual things.

>You know, I’m still hoping that one fine day you’ll write something
>that has any intellectual/technical value whatsoever.

As you have no technical background, how would you know?

>First, you two clowns claimed that diesel engines cannot produce
>white exhaust. When this was proven wrong, you adopted the familiar
>revisionazi tactic: “when refuted, post an even more stupid lie
>than the one that was refuted”.

Not in the least. I simply examined the consequences of your
“explanation” of this misuderstanding. You posted the vaporized
oil was the cause of the misidentification as steam. I simply
pointed out the consequences of that explanation and demonstrated
how untenable that explanation in fact is.

I had thought that when you went on to talking about the few bone
fragments found you were conceding the impossibility of your
explanation.

>So now we have Giwer babbling about the chambers becoming fuel-air
>bombs,

You are the one who claimed the buildings were filled with
vaporized oil, not me.

and you babbling about some built-in mechanism that will allow
>someone spying on the camps from a distance to immediately decide
>that the white exhaust is not steam; as if this was a scientist
>working in a laboratory, and not a layman who was probably shaking
>with fear of being discovered by the SS/Ukrainians.

A scientist in a laboratory? Have you never boiled water? Or is
it just your reliable witnesses who never boiled water?

>Give it up, clown.

You are the one offering the absurd explanations here. And on
top of that implying you could tell a technical explanation if it
bit you in the ass. The best you could do is put it in your
personal “incomprehensible” category.

>BTW, what about those “testimonies” from Dresden about people “glowing
>red and orange and vanishing”? You think these are true? Seems from
>your previous article in this thread that you do.

The damage of Dresen was fulling documented in film by both sides
at the time and some of it still exists. The best you have is a
grove a trees and a few bone fragments.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:03 PDT 1996
Article: 38006 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:41:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 4:41:05 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> >The baron is after me again. He haunts my dreams, he makes me get up
>> >many times at night to pee, he calls me nasty names.

>He calls my mother and father dirty names. He calls everyone dirty
>names, basically the baron is a dirty name caller at heart. But he’s
>not a dummy like some people we all know! (MG) 🙂
>>
>> Now you are blaming your prostate problems upon someone else.

>My prostate troubles? Is that what it is Dr. Giwer? And all this time
>we all thought that you were a proctologist. ( or maybe a
>proctologist’s dream).

Getting up many times in the middle of the night is a primary
symptom. If you have been ignoring it, you should tell your
doctor about it. You can thank me later.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:04 PDT 1996
Article: 38007 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:45:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 4:45:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alexander Baron wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
>> It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>> themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>> heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>Mr Giwer, stop telling these vicious truths. The Protocols is more of a
>mystical document than an anti-Semitic one, but boy, don’t they scream.

At least their efforts keep it out of publication, else it would
be on the best seller list and everyone would be studying it
nightly. Children would be memorizing it in school. Jeopardy
would have a “Protocols” category. Politicians would quote it.
The networks would make docudramas of it. People would be
inscribing it on the heads of pins to make the Guiness Book. And
even cats and dogs might begin living together.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38008 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:59:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:58:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>#[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Picture file: Belsen4.jpg
>##
>## Well-fed female members of the SS throwing skeletal corpses
>## of Belsen victims into a mass grave.

># “FEMALE” SS?

>Yes.

Fascinating. After all of these stories and indoctrination and
everything else about the holocaust about the SS about the Nazis
suddenly for the first time we hear about females in the ranks of
the SS. And of course they were assigned to the camps.

How did I miss and you find all of the women in the German
military all of these years? Not to mention finding them in the
SS. If this does not strike you as incongrous why does it not?

># How “modern” of the SS. Not only recruited them for the SS but
># also shipped them off to Poland for manual labor.

>As usual, the wacky Matt Giwer has no idea what on Earth
>he’s talking about.

>1) Belsen was in Germany, not Poland.

Even better. You have a few hundred bodies in this picture.
Must have been an instant order. It would have taken at least a
day to dig the pit. Are they bloated yet?

>2) The SS didn’t make the SS-women bury the corpses. They were
> ordered to do so by the British who liberated the camp.

So these people in the picture died of natural causes. Good to
hear. Were all the men missing? Or was it some sort of
determined cruelty to order the women to do it?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 03:25:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 227
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:24:39 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Hillary Ostov has reminded me that I am new here, so I am going to
>discover America by responding to Giwer’s Manifesto in two parts. I am
>going to be fair and call them as I see them. — Ehrlich606

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

>Your analysis here recapitulates characterizations of Jews and
>attributions of motives that could be easily described as anti-semitic.

What precisely do you think you are talking about?

Lets take this one step at a time.

There are a class of nutcases out there who lead off by saying
they are skinheads or some such and then go on to talk about the
resort conditions in the camps.

I have simply discussed the problems with the stories that are
told.

That some would choose to describe what I have been doing as
anti-semitic is a stupidity that I can not protect myself
against. On the other hand, I do not consider it stupidity but
deliberate as I carefully refrained from doing anything but what
I have described until I was called both anti-semitic and
neo-nazi.

And in fact I can not protect myself against apprehensions
either.

>>Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than
>>reported?
>>
>Here you describe the case of Anne Frank and her father. The fact that
>they survived Birkenau, and that Mr. Frank survived the war IS an
>inconsistency, IMHO. That is why an absolute intentionalism, i.e., “All
>Jews must perish whatever the cost!” kind of imperative is rarely offered
>these days. Clearly, there were competing imperatives.

First off, they were at Auschwitz and then moved to Belsen. In
fact she was suffering from typhus at the time of being moved
which anyone can find in the preface to the book if they want to
take a look. But no one will believe me since only a holohugger
can speak the truth.

Second, ignore all of that. She was 14 years old, hardly a
skilled worker. She was not the youngest. Were all the younger
children skilled workers? If not, why were they kept alive? Who
watched after them during the day? The SS? Pick your worst
case, they had to be fed during the day. Some one brought meals
to the rooms they were locked in?

But more generally, typhus is hardly the worst of the diseases
the camps would face, simply the most persistent. Avoiding other
diseases and such. I have already written it more carefully.

===

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltynitzen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post antibiotic world was
seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentery would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food standards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

===

>>So what is your interest in all of this?
>>
>You may be involved in debunking nonsense, but your approach to your
>subject is unnecessarily abrasive not to say cruel and disrespectful.
>People are not going be persuaded by this, which suggests that your method
>is partly inspired by vanity. If there ARE further adjustments to the
>Holocaust story you can be certain that you will not be credited.
>Furthermore, there is nothing you mention that has not been mentioned
>before.

Style has nothing to do with the matter. What these people
really dislike is my confidence in my own determination in
contrast to their slavish reliance upon the opinions of others as
the only source of their own opinions.

Even if I were interested in credit, history is a very unreliable
source of proper credit even in the big cases.

As to persuasion, no holohugger here is ever going to change so
there is no point in working for that end.

And as for nothing being new, you are newer than you think to
this subject or you are condensing every aspect of, for example,
into Treblinka proper.

>>What gas was used?
>>
>Here you discuss Zyklon B. You are right, Zyklon may release lethal
>poison in a short duration, but the pellets continue to release gas for
>several hours. Therefore, when used, the remaining pellets would have had
>to be cleaned up at some point.

I am well aware of the slow release rate but you have true
believers here claiming it is all released in 10 minutes. When I
point out what you are saying I am called a neonazi and
antisemite. That is the kind of people you are dealing with.

>>Why all the emotion over this subject?
>>
>> There has grown up a category of true believers around every
>>detail of the holocaust as it has become codified over the years.
>>They literally see themselves as defending the truth. As such
>>any aspect of it that is questioned brings an emotional response.
>>However, rather than acting as defenders they respond by
>>attacking. They do not respond by defending the questioned
>>details, rather they respond by calling names like anti-semitic
>>and neo-nazi.

>But this gets us back to the issue of “why bother?” When I was a kid,
>books about what happened to the Jews were cheek by jowl to books about
>Stalingrad, Hitler, or whatever. Now I can only find them in bookstores
>under “Judaica”. Except for the media, and I don’t care about the media,
>history books about WW2 usually say little or nothing about the Holocaust.
> Sometimes no more than two or three sentences, a big treatment might get
>two paragraphs with very few concrete details. The event has become
>marginalized and segregated, and meanwhile, by attacking the FACTS, you
>are attacking core attitudes and beliefs that Jews have. Why do you want
>to do that?

Why bother? Why not? It is only a hobby. That Jews happen to
hold those attitudes is their business. If they are on this
conference dedicated to revisionism, not the holocaust, that is
their choice.

>>Are there any particular problems with Zyklon-B having been used?
>>
>The main problem with Zyklon is as discussed above, in my view. It is not
>an insurmountable problem, but, in practice, would probably slow projected
>gassing rates.

They are going to start calling you names soon.

>>But has not all of this been cut and dried from the beginning?
>>
>No, it has taken some time. Although here you are making an error, among
>other things, by maintaining that 2 million died at Treblinka. Current
>estimate is 800,000 — that is an estimate.

You will find people here claiming it was known from the
beginning. And of course Treblinka is supposed to have been
death by either CO poisoning or oil fumes depending upon the
story one wishes to deal with.

>>Did not Hoess confess his crimes?
>>
>Hoess did confess his crimes, and was hanged two years not one month
>later. Another error. Stay on top of what you are saying.

Sorry but he was not surrendered to General Rudenko until about a
month before his trial and was hung a month after his second
trial. Nizkor will verify the trial and execution dates if you
care to look — the second trial at least.

>>Are there other problems?
>>
>Here you go into witness inconsistencies. Yes, they are there. If you
>don’t believe them, and since the world isn’t hanging in the balance, let
>them go.

People were executed based upon not only these inconsistancies
but these contrary to reality testimonies. Things they swore to
can not happen, period, not in this reality. And yet these
things are part of the dogma of today. When one part falls, it
all falls as these witnesses are the basis for the story in the
first place.

>>Did not so many of the SS members confess?
>>
>It is quite true that some SS testimony seems coerced. Gerstein’s
>testament is quite suspicious to me. People are holding onto something
>here that has a deep and abiding meaning to them — and you are asking
>them to admit to details being false. OK — after that, are you going to
>leave them alone, or are you going to keep coming back asking for more and
>more concessions? And, meanwhile, you are not respecting the significance
>this whole thing has for Jews and for many non-Jews as well. In other
>words, you are not respecting the symbol or the CONCEPT of the Holocaust.
>This is your weak link: your task is entirely destructive.

The truth is independent of what people feel about it. If people
want to take nonsense seriously that is their problem, not mine.
They are here voluntarily and this is not a conference for
discussion of orthodox holocaust views.

If they do not like it they can leave. But they are on a mission
>from Yahweh or some such, a Jihad so to speak.

>PS: it is spelled “Solzhenitsyn”

Thank you but I won’t remember it. I get the impression it is
not a proper Russian name as I usually have little trouble with
those. Gorby’s name I can’t remember either but he was Georgian.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:06 PDT 1996
Article: 38010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer loses Sanity (Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work c
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:01:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 10:00:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Do you know this Brack? Can you prove he ever existed?

>This is a new record, even for Giwer. This man has lost
>the little sanity he may have had.

Excuse me, good sir, but I must invoke the Gentile Rule which
requires you to prove everything about this person before his
“testimony” can be introduced into evidence.

>He’s now apparently claiming that Victor Brack never existed?

>Last, Brack was seen in Germany, at the end of a rope. I don’t
>know if the rope is still around for forensic examination.

>Seek help, Giwer. You’re going down the tubes.

Seek help yourself, holohugger. The Gentile Rule is in effect
until otherwise noted. You are required to prove everything
about your witness including that he ever existed before he will
be considered.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:07 PDT 1996
Article: 38014 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:42:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:42:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Ehrlich606 writes:

>>At minimum, slavery implies a contract that the slaveowner
>>will take care of his slaves. At minimum, the National Socialist
>>government, which was a German government, failed to do this. At
>minimum,
>>it is qualitatively worse than anything the Western Allies did in WW2.

>Hold on, I think the firebombing of every civilian population center of
>100,000 or more ranks right up there on the Great Atrocities of All Time
>list. We continued this lovely tradition in North Korea BTW.

If I remember right you did not like this the last time I jumped
in but lets try it one more time.

One of the unfortunate consequences of post Napoleanic Wars times
is that the civilian population became active participants in
war. Until aircraft became a significant factor in war it was
impossible to carry the war to the civilian infrastructure
supporting the war. The industrial revolution only made this
more obvious and more essential to get the source of supplies.

Thus it was possible to maintain the rather ancient fiction of
hold civilians harmless in war. This fiction was first broken by
Sherman in the US Civil War but it was continued for nearly a
century for lack of serious means of implementation.

For a few brief years that comprised WW II it became possible to
bring the war to the civilian infrastructure that supported the
military and thus any factory and city containing a factory and
any city containing workers in any factory became a legitimate
target.

WW II became a testing ground for the mass destruction of the
civilian support of the military. Given the technology of the
time, fire bombing was the first method tried.

After the A Bomb the entire game was over, the solution had been
found for the problem that was hardly 125 years old at the time.
Things do change quickly these days.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:08 PDT 1996
Article: 38016 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a “Holocaust survivor”?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:45:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:45:42 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Seems about every other time you pick up the N.Y. or L.A. Times
>there is something that mentions a “Holocaust survivor”. Not having
>the resources to check out every publication in the nation I can only
>wonder how many more referrences have been made. There seems to be an
>aweful lot of them running around.
> What is a “Holocaust survivor”? Could it be someone who escaped
>out of German control before the alleged story all started, or someone
>who was in one of the camps but made it out alive, or someone who hid
>out for the duration?
>
> Maybe the child of a pregnant woman who escaped from German
>occupied territory would come under “Holocaust survivor”. It would
>follow that a child of the child could be considered a “Holocaust
>survivor”, and so on.

> Of course many Jews departed Europe before and during WW II.
>We could asume, going by the Holocaust story, that if they had stayed
>they would have been exterminated. From this it could follow that any
>of those that left and eventually had children, the children
>themselves would be “Holocaust survivors” along with any children they
>had and so on.
> Who knows, maybe we will still be reading about surviving
>”Holocaust survivors”, two, three hundred years down the road.

A holocaust survivor is much like our Chuck Ferre who was a
fighter pilot, camp liberator, war crimes investigator,
muti-engine plane pilot and a grand touree of a dozen camps in
Germany all in one short career. And then Ike stole the credit
>from him.

BTW: I am a holocaust survivor, missed it by THAT much.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:09 PDT 1996
Article: 38019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:12:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 12:10:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> And therefore you have no reason to believe you lost any
>> >> relatives.
>>
>> > You’ve gone off the deep end Matty. Your original posts were
>> >nonsense. This is not even intelligible.
>>
>> You have just agreed that you only lost track of them, rather
>> than lost them.
>>
>>>>>
> Since the exact opposite is true — we were 100% successful in tracing
>those who we were able to trace — your statement is utter nonsense. The
>language is English, asshole, try reading it sometime instead of inventing your
>own language. For the record Matty if we “lost track” of them we could have
>successfully traced them. Since we were 100% successful in tracing those who
>we succeeded in tracing, none that were traced can be counted as “having lost
>track of.”

This from a pretended attorney, even though killfile challenged?

Only you could claim that losing track of people is successfully
tracing them. Well, not only you. Dozens of other holohuggers
make the same claim.

And of course you claim there was no one you could not trace even
>from the other side of the Atlantic.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:10 PDT 1996
Article: 38020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:55:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 10:55:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ab.general:9462 can.general:77925 alt.revisionism:38020 van.general:8583

[email protected] (David Reilley) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
>>Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:25:06 GMT

>>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>>>>That’s not true. It is agaionst the law to use the postal service to
>>>>distribute hate mail

>>>In totalitarian states maybe.

>> You mean like Canada?

>Canada, Germany.

>In the USA it is against the law to send “obscene” material.

>The original point was that that there were no laws of this sort affecting
>telephone calls or letters — the reality is that there are.

Actually in the US it is illegal only to deal in kiddie porn
under the presumption that those under age could not have
consented to the creation of the pornography. Written material
is an unprosecuted gray area. So far we have only photographic
material as precedent that is not under appeal. There has also
been a crack down on what appears to be snuff tapes under the
same presumption of non-consent.

It is a good thing, finally. Something that I have promoted for
decades — at least the loosening of the law. The only problem
at the moment is that the wannabe censors have so little left to
do that they are imaginging an attack upon morphing to youth even
though there is no evidence of such a tape in existance.

Our censors are desperate. At the moment they are focussing upon
TV violence and the V-chip (still not in production much less do
the standards for it exist.) It is the same children doing their
same juvenile thing that has made them a living for years.

Do not expect drastic changes but steady progress.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:10 PDT 1996
Article: 38021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:59:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 10:59:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> There were a few Jewish settlements in Greece and Turkey which
>> were considered the Hellenist part of the Med, not Europe early
>> in the first century.

> You are incorrect. For one thing the largest Jewish settlements were in
>Egypt.

The subject was Europe, killfile challenged one.

>> They are not the ancestors of European
>> Jews. The direct ancestors are those who migrated up through the
>> Eastern Empire behind the Muslims starting in the 9th century.

> You are incorrect.

As predicted, no evidence, mere refutation. Sounds like a Monty
Python routine.

>> About that time there were only a few pockets of non-Christian
>> religions left in Europe mainly the Norse and some of the
>> Russias.

> How about the Iberian penisula including much of what is now southern
>France?

As noted, it was following the Muslims, and said penisula is more
correctly called Spain.

>> And of course at least three people will come back claiming I
>> have no idea what I am talking about while refusing to post what
>> they believe to be the real history.

> Why bother?

As predicted.

>Others will post recognized historians who emphatically
>disagree with you; you will make abusive ipse dixit statements based entirely on
>you own appalling ignorance. Can you name a single historian who agrees with
>you?

> Suggested reading: “The Jews in the Roman World” Michael Grant.
>read it; you might learn something.

I suggest you read it yourself before you imply I am in error
without stating what you consider to be the truth. Until then,

Judenland, Uber Alles!

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:11 PDT 1996
Article: 38024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: which buildings for gassing
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:31:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:33:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>The question of what kind of questions Commandant Hoess was asked,
>will never be known by anyone. But you can bet your ass that he was
>asked about the buildings used for gassing, not only that he and other
>SS men told which buildings were used for gassing, among other
>important matters they wrote in their own last words.

They did not. Your liberator fantasies are you own.

>Has Gwiwer ever been to Auschwitz?

Sorry, I was not a fighter pilot as you were.

>Has he every inspected the entire
>place? What does he know about Auschwitz, other than what he read in
>some revisionistic book or other fictitious pro-Nazi magazines, or
>maybe in his dreams this stuff comes up and he writes it all down as
>historical facts.

You however have had your entire effort in ending the BIG war
stolen by Ike.

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> This is of course a minor point but why in the 22 months Rudolph
>> Hoess was under arrest did no one think to ask him which
>> buildings were used for gassing?

>Do you seriously believe that he wasn’t questioned about this? The man
>took Polish officials and showed them where the gassings took place.
>The Russians already knew and had documents of all this stuff. This is
>about as silly as the arguments about what happened at Auschwitz can
>get.

Senility at the least. Altzheimer’s at the minimum. Totally
whacked out for certain.

>> Why is not his 120 book the definitive reference to answer all
>> questions about A-B?

>Doesn’t matter. Giwer wouldn’t believe it no matter what anybody
>proved or stated.

Post from his book for god’s sake. Can’t even afford glasses in
your condition? Gad! What a waste of nothing to start with.

>Chuckles
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:12 PDT 1996
Article: 38025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:12:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 11:07:21 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> I was clearly called a nazi and an antisemite for questioning
>> anything contrary to the Nizkor Creed.

>You’re lying. Again. You practically begged to be called a Nazi and an
>anti-semite, but it didn’t happen.

>Oh well, back into the killfile.

You didn’t master it the first time and therefore you read this
post.

Do you think anyone but a holohugger is so incapable of analytic
thought that this claim of yours will be believed?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:13 PDT 1996
Article: 38027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:36:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 11:36:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>D. Keren writes:

>># Here you discuss Zyklon B. You are right, Zyklon may release lethal
>># poison in a short duration, but the pellets continue to release
>># gas for several hours.
>>
>>Not according to the patent and to the book by Dr. Gerhard Peters,
>>the leading scientist of the firm that manufactured Zyklon;
>>according to these two sources, most of the cyanide gas is released
>>within 10 minutes.

>A claim in a patent often has nothing to do with the working item, and no
>one as yet has produced any documentation I am aware of confirming that
>the fast release was ever reduced to practice. You certainly wouldn’t
>want to have this feature for the standard use of the stuff. According to
>data obtained by German chemist Germar Rudolf (from a firm currently
>making the product) the release time is indeed several hours long, and
>that is at 20C, a rather warm temperature. It will be considerably slower
>at lower temperatures. Keep in mind what the material was used
>for–fumigation. It would be dangerous and highly inefficient if the
>release occured that quickly. Rudolf’s data indicated a time period of
>1/2 hour to release 63% of the remaining absorbed HCN.

But our killfile challenge attorney knows a patent attorney who
would consider you position laughable. Considering that both are
>from Pennsylvania, it gives a new meaning to Philadelphia lawyer.
The last I heard it is the same as shyster.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:13 PDT 1996
Article: 38028 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:20:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:23:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> >As usual this guy has no clues at all.
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>bullshit clipped out all lies anyway!!! 🙂
>>
>> Tell it to Nizkor, not me. Have them correct their archives and
>> cite you as the “EXPERT” you have claimed to be.

>Hold it asshole, I don’t to claim to be an expert on anything.

Pay attention to what you write about yourself. You proclaimed
yourself one a few days ago.

But I
>was in World War Two, I went into five main camps and several
>sub-camps, I saw the gas chambers, and the piled up dead bodies, and
>the trenches dug by bull dozers to bury forty or fifty thousand people
>at Belsen, by our British comrades in arms. Where did you get all of
>your wonderful knowledge? From revisionist slimey books, written by
>kooks, just like you. And something else, pal, I can still fly
>multiple-engined air planes Piece of cake once you do it for several
>thousand hours.

You were a fighter pilot retrained to a multiengine pilot in a
few months just to ferry the brass to Poland. You liberated a
camp. You brought war criminals to justice. And now you toured
camps liberated by the Brits as well as the Russians.

Are you trying to make Al Gentile look good?

>The wonder of it all is, not that some people can not comprehend the
>enormity of millions of innocent people being murdered by A. Hitler
>and his gang of Nazi thugs, no one really wants to believe that any
>people could possibly be so inhumane to so many other humans. But it
>happened in much of Europe, and it’s called the Holocaust, because
>nothing like it has ever happened before.
>Chuckles

With testimony like yours I don’t see how anyone could question
the word of such a superhero.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:14 PDT 1996
Article: 38030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust (for Moran)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:44:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:46:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>TOMMY OLD BUDDY, OLD PAL…THIS HAS BEEN POSTED ON THIS SITE SO MANY
>TIMES, THE “GOOD GUYS” HOLLER “ENOUGH ALL READY!” 🙂
>This just for you, Tommy.

>Holocaust Experiences
>By
>Charles V. Ferree

Prove every word of it. Prove you, oh superhero, were ever there
for starts.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 38031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah business
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:53:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 11:52:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Orest Slepokura) wrote:

>
>FROM:

>THE CALGARY HERALD
>THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>JERUSALEM
>MONDAY, MAY 6, 1996

> Museum under attack

>Israel’s national Holocaust museum is under attack from some death camp
>survivors for charging a fee for individual memorials to those who
>perished.

>For between $500 and $1,500, the Yad Vashem museum will inscribe memorial
>stones with the names of victims of the Nazi genocide. The amount depends
>on the size of the stone.

>”This is enraging,” said Daniel Chanoch, 63, who survived the Auschwitz
>and Dachau death camps.

>”Those who have no money will not be memorialized. It is just like in the
>ghettos: Those who had no money were the first ones sent to the gas
>chambers.”

It is the last sentence that matters. It is not remembering but
making money.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:15 PDT 1996
Article: 38033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 07:06:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 12:05:12 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You know as well as I do that your fellow chemist was playing a
>>game in that the reaction was impossible by playing with the
>>formal definition of the term “burn.”

> Let’s review the bidding.

> It was Mr. Giwer who played that dishonest game, and is now lying
>through his teeth and blaming Richard Green for it. The whole cause for
>the discussion was cremation, and the question of whether bones burn.

> Now, the only reason to talk about that is to discuss whether bones in
>cremation ovens are reduced to ash or not: burn in the colloquial sense
>”burn up.” Mr. Giwer introduced the claim that calcium burns.

> The only reason to raise that issue is to support the idea that bones
>can burn. And, as previously stated, the only sensible reason to raise
>that issue is to suggest that bones ought to reduce to ash (“burn _up_”)
>in a cremation oven (which, remember, was the original subject).

> Rich Green pointed out that the calcium in bones is not elemental
>calcium; Mr. Giwer’s citation to the Merck Manual was irrelevant, because
>it concerned elemental calcium. (I have also posted an article about
>cremation which says that bones do not burn down to unrecognizable ash;
>they must be pulverized. And Holocaust survivors also testified that
>bones had to be crushed after cremation.)

> Mr. Giwer did then actually admit he was wrong, that bones do not
>burn. (In the non-scientific sense “burn _up_.”) However, there are
>compounds in bones that do burn, in the sense used by scientists. Just
>not the calcium. Therefore the bones do not burn down to unrecognizable
>ash. Chunks and whole bones remain.

> It is now Mr. Giwer who is dishonestly pretending the original topic
>was whether bones burn in the scientific sense. I guess he thinks if he
>repeats his lie often enough it will become true. (Another charge he
>makes against other people.) However, DejaNews has a long memory.

You are still misrepresenting the entire issue here.

BW: I finally got around to looking at the neo-Nizkor files on
me. They may exist but they have destroyed the chain of evidence
completely. It is a waste of good hard disk space.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 07:08:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 12:07:49 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You know as well as I do that your fellow chemist was playing a
>>game in that the reaction was impossible by playing with the
>>formal definition of the term “burn.”

> Let’s review the bidding.

> It was Mr. Giwer who played that dishonest game, and is now lying
>through his teeth and blaming Richard Green for it. The whole cause for
>the discussion was cremation, and the question of whether bones burn.

> Now, the only reason to talk about that is to discuss whether bones in
>cremation ovens are reduced to ash or not: burn in the colloquial sense
>”burn up.” Mr. Giwer introduced the claim that calcium burns.

> The only reason to raise that issue is to support the idea that bones
>can burn. And, as previously stated, the only sensible reason to raise
>that issue is to suggest that bones ought to reduce to ash (“burn _up_”)
>in a cremation oven (which, remember, was the original subject).

> Rich Green pointed out that the calcium in bones is not elemental
>calcium; Mr. Giwer’s citation to the Merck Manual was irrelevant, because
>it concerned elemental calcium. (I have also posted an article about
>cremation which says that bones do not burn down to unrecognizable ash;
>they must be pulverized. And Holocaust survivors also testified that
>bones had to be crushed after cremation.)

> Mr. Giwer did then actually admit he was wrong, that bones do not
>burn. (In the non-scientific sense “burn _up_.”) However, there are
>compounds in bones that do burn, in the sense used by scientists. Just
>not the calcium. Therefore the bones do not burn down to unrecognizable
>ash. Chunks and whole bones remain.

> It is now Mr. Giwer who is dishonestly pretending the original topic
>was whether bones burn in the scientific sense. I guess he thinks if he
>repeats his lie often enough it will become true. (Another charge he
>makes against other people.) However, DejaNews has a long memory.

And you continue to lie about what happened as expected. Do you
have anything else to offer?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:17 PDT 1996
Article: 38038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:05:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 6:05:40 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:

>: In other words, without the slightest cause, you are muddying the
>: discussion with a suggestion that paint was also source of
>: cyanide compounds. But of course you will demand proof from me
>: that they were not painted blue. You future as a chemist is in
>: serious question.

>Does this mean that you plan to post your source for the claim that HCN
>is a product of coke combustion, and then explain how the HCN got from
>the smokestacks to the interiors of the gas chambers (but nowhere else)?
>I wouldn’t want to think that you had, at any stage, “muddied” the
>discussion by bringing up irrelevancies.

>Oh, by the way, have you worked out that Hitler translation yet? Maybe
>you could get your alter ego “Swiger” to do it for you.

What it does mean is that you intend to continue to muddy the
waters rather than address the issue that was raised.

You know as well as I do that your fellow chemist was playing a
game in that the reaction was impossible by playing with the
formal definition of the term “burn.”

You also know that what I said has absolutely nothing to do with
the fantasy you are spieling just for the fun of creating a straw
man so flimsy that even an intellectual midget such as yourself
can deal with it.

You holohuggers have no integrity or is it just chemists?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:17 PDT 1996
Article: 38044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:28:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 3:29:38 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## This is, unfortunately, true. And the saddest thing is that
>## Giwer is no teenage punk; he’s 50 years old.

># 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster. When do
># you expect to be able to retire?

>Certainly not when I’m 51. I have no idea why someone would retire
>at such an early age. Maybe no one wanted to hire him. I really
>don’t think that early retirement is something to boast about…

You should think of it that way. I really can see you at 65 on
Social Security wondering what happened to you.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 38045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:30:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 3:31:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>[About the Jager Report]

># Horrifying? You are using the words from the books you read
># again.

>Well, human beings may consider the fact that one SS unit
>murdered over 130,000 innocent civilians during 5 months –
>about a third of them children – to be horrifying.

That does not change your using the words of the assholes you are
quoting.

># There is also a remarkably small number of children involved. A
># very unprolific breed perhaps.

>The Giwer apparently considers the fact that Jager’s unit killed
>”only” about 30,000 children to be insignificant.

In no way but you take this crap for true when it is clearly
nonsense fabrication.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:19 PDT 1996
Article: 38046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Picture File: SS-Obersturmfuehrer Hoessler Poses in Belsen
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:34:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 3:35:55 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Sigh. Giwer, you ignorant clown: this photo was taken after
>## the liberation of the camp.
>
># Excuse me. You mean to say they were still killing people AFTER
># the camp was liberated? Or are you saying this is a forced
># posing to create false evidence?

>”False evidence”?

>Geez, you mean the women in the lorry and the people in the
>mass grave *aren’t really dead*?

You have claimed it was posed after liberation and that he was
“proud” at the time of the picture being taken.

You made the claims, prove them beyond the Gentile Rule of
evidence.

># Just what is it you are saying?

>I’m saying that the man in the photo is SS officer Franz Hoessler,
>standing in front of a lorry full of corpses of people murdered
>by the Nazis in Belsen. Do you claim otherwise? Let’s see dem
>163 IQ in action. Who do you think the man in the photo is?

Prove everything you are claiming according to the Gentile Rule
of evidence. I you have not personally verified his very
existence you are promoting the existence of a person never
existed.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:19 PDT 1996
Article: 38047 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!n3ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:06:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 6:06:41 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>In another post, Giwer took me to task demanding that I “prove”
>everything I say. Problem is when Giwer uses the “Al Gentile rule”
>(which he made up himself) he doesn’t have to prove anything, and
>that’s probably a good thing, at least for him, because not only does
>he never bother to prove anything he claims to be the truth, it’s
>impossible, because he can’t prove anything he says.

If it has not been for Ike, you would have gotten the credit for
winning WW II singlehandedly.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:20 PDT 1996
Article: 38051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:32:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 2:34:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > There is no “implication of completeness.” There was a statement of
>> >accuracy. Again, there were no “failures.” The researchers were, as you
>have
>> >noted 100% successful in tracing those who they were able to trace. There
>were,
>> >thus, no “failures” to attribute to anything.
>>
>> And therefore you have no reason to believe you lost any
>> relatives.

> You’ve gone off the deep end Matty. Your original posts were
>nonsense. This is not even intelligible.

You have just agreed that you only lost track of them, rather
than lost them.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:21 PDT 1996
Article: 38052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:30:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 2:33:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> You have artificially created only two categories, the found and
>> the dead ignoring the unfound.

> Of course we ignored the ones we could not trace. Only an idiot or a
>Giwer would speculate about those. Just as we were 100% successful in tracing
>those that we traced, we were 0% successful in tracing those that we could not
>trace.

>> You can pretend this one forever for all I care but even your
>> fellow holohuggers are going to have a hard time supporting you
>> in this one, oh killfile challenged one.

> What am I pretending? You have agreed that we were 100%
>successful in tracing those that we were able to trace. It is you who have created
>the artificial catagory of those we were successful in tracing which we failed to
>trace.

You are pretending that lost and lost track of are all the former
with regard to the holocaust.

> Have you been taking arithmetic lessons from L’il Tommy?

I have yet to see anyone post any math in refutation.

But in fact the correction is that he and you should both be
saying lost track of rather than lost.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:21 PDT 1996
Article: 38053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:06:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:05:46 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>## 1) You started by claiming that diesel engines cannot produce
>## white exhaust. Then, you admitted you made an error.
>
># ONLY, to repeat ONLY because YOU claimed CO poisoning. We have
># been over this. But you know that.
>
>What a kvetcher: blaming me for his incompetence and ignorance.
>Your point is moot, anyway, as the British researchers found
>that, under these running conditions (high fuel-air ratio and
>white smoke) the main reason for death of the animals was CO.

You have admitted you are unqualifed to discuss any technical
subject. Please go away. You are out of your league.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:22 PDT 1996
Article: 38054 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 20:56:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 3:55:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38054 soc.culture.jewish:51962 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20439 soc.culture.israel:34240

[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>Roger Froikin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Shaqeeqa wrote:
>: >
>:
>: > Perhaps Jews who have been occupying Palestine since 1948 will
>: > submit the proper deeds of land ownership proving that they
>: > are the rightful owners prior to 721 B.C.

>: No need. The only nation to hold soverignty over Palestine based on
>: local population was the Jewish Nation. That nation was forcibly
>: exiled and kept away. Therefore they never lost national identity with
>: that land.

>: Arabs that came in later were squatters that settled without purchasing.

>: It’s just that simple.

>Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!

Which is obviously a forged document of events that never
occurred.

But if you claim it is a true document then the land was
conquered and genocide was committed by your spiritual ancestors.

>As the first Rashi in chumash points out:

>a) the Sefer Berashis DOCUMNENTS how the original owener
>of Israel, Hashem
>deeded it over to the descendanst of
>Abraham, Issac and Jacob!

So much for Exodus. But is it not a curious belief that in those
primitive times one person actually personally owned all of that
land and in fact would sell it?

>This was always meant to be the appropriate response
>to anti-semites!

>In fact, if the government of Israel has stuck to this position
>instead of caliming it because
> of Balbour (who gave it to ?BOTH SIDES, just like
>any Brooklyn Bridge salemen) or deliberatly ambiguous UN resolutions
>it would NEVER have had any trouble from Bush and Baker!

If that position had ever been forwarded it would have been
ridiculed out of existence on the grounds of pure absurdity.

>No American President or politiican has ever gone on record
>opposing the Bible, even Clinton would not do such a thing!

Unfortunate the forgery you reference as a claim is not in the
bible.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:23 PDT 1996
Article: 38058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:05:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:04:21 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer writes:
>
># As you have no technical background, how would you know?
>
>Who says I have no technical background?

It is unnecessary to be redundent in what you have demonstrated.

Sorry about that. You could have simply given it and answered a
few simple questions in that regard but you did not.

You have none. You would be honest in admitting it.

># You are the one offering the absurd explanations here. And on
># top of that implying you could tell a technical explanation if it
># bit you in the ass.

>I found a technical explanation that you, the almighty technical
>expert, with many years of experience in the real world, and
>with the 163 IQ to boot, could not find: that diesel engines
>can release white exhaust. You went on to claim that this
>exhaust would cause a danger of explosion. You failed to
>document this. You failed to explain why nothing of the
>sort happened in the series of experiments by British researchers
>who ran engines in such conditions.
>
>You also failed to note that there was white exhaust present
>also when running without load, in normal fuel-air ratio.

>So, if I have no technical background, what does that make you?

>Hint: it makes you someone who was refuted by someone who
>has no technical background.
>
>It’s back to the old drawing board for you, old son. You
>take great pride at the fact you’re retired, right? So you
>have plenty of time to come up with something better.

I agree, you are a technological illiterate who has no business
posting as other than that.

You apparently do not realize what you are admitting.

You are unqualified to discuss this subject.

Sorry about that.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:24 PDT 1996
Article: 38062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 20:24:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 1:16:06 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Good old reliable Giwer. Always there when we need him,

How did Ike get all of the credit?

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> >Alexander Baron wrote:
>>
>> >>In article <[email protected]>
>> >> [email protected] “william c anderson” writes:

>> >>> : >: Actually considering Mr.Edeiken’s claim that he lost 160
>> >>> : >: relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family tree

>Certainly is possible when one considers that entire villages were
>wiped out, shipped to camps, worked to death, starved to death, shot
>to death, gassed to death and thousands died from neglect. So I think
>all of you guys who are debating the issue of who lost how many
>relatives in the Holocaust are simply full of shit. It’s a stupid
>subject, mainly because no one knows for sure, so why screw around
>with speculation and silly mathamitical formulas which don’t mean a
>thing.

Therefore in a village of 200 with 100 survivors each person lost
100 relatives for a grand total of 10,000 people lost.

>> >>This is a typical tactic

>Bullshit, Giwer! This isn’t nearly as typical a tactic as you use to
>bullshit your way into every discussion in the world. You are so
>predictable, it’s really funny.

How many war criminals did you say you brought to justice?

>, Wiesenthal claimed he lost 77 members

>If that’s what Wiesenthal said, then he lost seventy-seven family
>members. He doesn’t have a world-wide reputation for lying his ass
>off…like some people! (MG) 🙂

With all the claims you have made about what you did during the
war it is difficult to imagine you could possibly tell the
difference.

>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>THE REAL QUESTION IS WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE SO FULL OF SELF HATE,
>THAT THEY BLAME THE JEWS OR SOME BODT ELSE FOR EVERYTHING
>THEY THINK IS WRONG WITH THEIR WORLD.

The desparation you folks show in trying to force fit that
stereotype onto others is much more telling than you might
imagine.

>Chuckles

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:24 PDT 1996
Article: 38068 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 21:20:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 2:19:22 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># It is also interesting that after the production facilities were
># destroyed 5 tons were ordered and delivered.

>1) State your source for the production facilities being destroyed.

What you posted.

>2) State your source for these being the only production facilities.

I presumed what you posted was complete. So where did it come
from?

Are you ready to address the rest of the points? For example,
that for one use it deteriorates in six weeks and for another use
it lasts six months? What is the difference?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:25 PDT 1996
Article: 38069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!n3ott.istar!istar.net!n1van.istar!news.vancouver.istar.net!west.news.istar.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:24:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 168
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 9:24:19 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Hillary Ostov has reminded me that I am new here, so I am going to
>discover America by responding to Giwer’s Manifesto in two parts. I am
>going to be fair and call them as I see them. — Ehrlich606

No matter what you write, unless you come to support her side you
will be considered a neo-nazi.

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>Subject: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
>>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 05:45:27 GMT
>>
>> What was the holocaust?

>You describe three concentric circles: deaths in WW2, civilian deaths in
>East Europe under Nazi supervision, and Jewish deaths. The last of these
>is what we commonly mean by “Holocaust.” It has many layers of uniqueness
>that I have been trying to get at in my posts — not that anyone reads
>them.

Buzzer there. I used a sig that said “6 million were a tragedy
the other 6 million a footnote.” You are only proving that
correct (as did so many holohuggers here) by claming that the
last rather than the second is the holocaust. You are correct,
it is commonly viewed as a uniquely “jewish” event when in fact
they are less than half of the total. I do admit it is very
difficult in this conference to find more than a footnote
reference to the majority of non-jewish victims.

I also point out it is not clear how those in the second and
third are subtracted from the first.

>It is also true that survivors could have told something less than the
>objective truth for a variety of reasons, none of which would involve a
>Zionist plot.

You are the one to bring up a zionist plot. I simply point to
the people who believe in UFO abductions which is hardly a plot.

>>What was the plan for the Holocaust?
>>
>Unfortunately, the Wannsee minutes are not as benign as you make them,
>assuming that population transfers are “benign”. Read the document: sex
>segregation, natural diminution, compulsory sterilization, etc. it is a
>horrific document, a disgrace to the German language in which it was
>written and a disgrace to Western Civilization, IMHO.
>Furthermore, you got the date wrong.

I have never claimed it was benign in any manner. I have in fact
stated that even one death resulting from any deliberate action
is murder by the person who took that action. I have also stated
that the murder of one is as evil as the murder of a million,
that death to all involved in the one has been earned.

That is too strong a position for the holohuggers to accept.

As for the date, hail Nizkor.

>>What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

>I agree that testimony about the Holocaust should not contravene the laws
>of nature. That may, and I repeat MAY, conceivably lower death totals at
>this or that location, or even overall death totals, but it doesn’t change
>the overall picture, IMHO.

None of my opinions are humble. I have no idea why yours are.

However the problem you face is that the entire gassing story is
exactly the overall picture that you say is not diminished. Are
you aware that all of this gassing is based upon such testimony?

>>What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

>You are right, there is little physical evidence. And, because there is no
>knife, OJ is innocent, right?

At least there were two bodies with their throats slit. We don’t
even have deaths from cyanide here. (Save of course one
pathologist hearsay which contradicts the idea that the SS
stopped gassing people when they were close to being overrun.)

Your suggestion about a bomb shelter at
>Birkenau is confused. The door is a “gas tight” not air tight door. It
>is CONCEIVABLE that the Leichenkeller were actually morgues and that
>Zyklon was occasionally used to disinfest vermin, blowflies, or other
>possible disease vectors. That is the only benign explanation for the
>door I can CONCEIVE, and since it runs counter to all testimony then we
>are left with a gas chamber.

Except that there IS NO TESTIMONY about the LKs. They are the
current best suspect as to what the witnesses were talking about.
Have you ever read an “eyewitness” testimony here talking about
the room being “out behind the Krema and underground”? When
Nizkor puts their picture section back up take a look at them.
These rooms are shown as being behind the building opposite the
gate.

And then what you have read as testimony is NOT the case or
circumstances. If it were a trial it is neither the
crossexamination, the defense testimony, nor the outcome of the
case. Even in the best case they are nothing but the statements
of selected prosecution witnesses. And what is that worth?

If you believe that sort of thing you believe the hearsay
testimony of the Crispis witnesses claiming a government
conspiracy to import cocaine into the country.

>You then go into a long discussion about Treblinka. There do seem to be
>some problems here, but whatever problems there are they would seem to
>affect only the scale of the enterprise. The existing mass graves are
>enough.

There are no existing mass graves in evidence. There is evidence
only that people died in transit and were buried there.

>>So why would these stories be similar in major features?

>Two reasons: a) they are generally true, b) the parts that are true become
>mixed in with other things.

Except that ONLY the “sonderkommandos” were supposed to have any
knowledge of what what going on. These “gassing” places were
supposed to have been kept out of sight of the general camp
population. In fact if you read the stories, you will find that
Birkenau was added to Auschwitz specifically for gassing yet of
course you will find there were men’s and women’s camps at
Birkenau also. The stories are never consistent.

And yet you dismiss camp rumor so quickly. Any group that lives
apart, even voluntarily, develops its own rumors that become
gospel. Have you missed it? 70% of US Blacks believe that AIDS
was created by whites to exterminate them. Were the US to be
“liberated” and Blacks to achieve the status of Jews do you
really think that questioning the myth would not be a similar
“emotional” issue for Blacks?

Do you really believe camp life was better than for US Blacks?
Is it not more reasonable to accept that rumor had a greater
influence?

>>So how could so many die so quickly?

>Here you talk about disease and other things. Suffice to say that, even
>if there were no gas chambers, the entire National Socialist leadership,
>and by extension, the German people, have to pay a price for the terrible
>care extended to the people that they uprooted and essentially enslaved
>during WW2. At minimum, slavery implies a contract that the slaveowner
>will take care of his slaves. At minimum, the National Socialist
>government, which was a German government, failed to do this. At minimum,
>it is qualitatively worse than anything the Western Allies did in WW2.

You sound very libertarian. But if you did seriously consider
what I wrote then what must the normal conditions have been like?
Certainly decent food, clothing, housing, health care must have
been the norm else all of these skilled workers would have died
off the first winter.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:26 PDT 1996
Article: 38079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: William Grosvenor believes in crap!
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:38:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 4:38:38 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38079 ab.general:9472 can.general:77944 van.general:8588

[email protected] (Captain Comrade) wrote:

>[email protected] (David Reilley) thought, and subsequently typed:

>>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Zeljko ‘Zed’ Zidaric) writes:

>>>I am all for the creation of a citizen’s militia.

>>>Now tell us WHY you think Militias are a bad idea.

>>Because they are supported by people like you whose idea of “humour” is a
>>sig.file that says “Improve the country — kill a liberal today.”

>>You just don’t get it — most Canadians are appalled at the idea that problems
>>are solved with guns. This is how problems are “solved” in Yugoslavia and
>>Rwanda, not here.

>Good point. However, the idea that Canada is somehow less violent and more holy
>than other countries is really pushing it. There’s violence in Canada, all
>right, and I’ve experienced it first-hand (on the wrong side, of course). Don’t
>take this for preaching, I just get irritated when the same assholes who beat me
>up in grade school pretend that they’re somehow better than those
>god-fearing, republican reactionaries with souped-up hunting rifles in the
>(shudder) United States
.

Actually, European descent Americans are marginally less prone to
violent crime than European descent Canadians. It is not a
statistically significant difference but it was there in the 94
(or 93) statistics.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:26 PDT 1996
Article: 38081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:28:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 12:31:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Ceacaa wrote:
>>
>>>>This ties into my question about HCN rising. Green wrote:
>>>> > “It’s the temperature of the gas and the
>>>>> turbulence that will determine the dispersion.”
>>>>
>>>>Exactly so. If your cone was at the ceiling level, the vaporising
>>>>HCN would have the same temperature as the surrounding
>>>>warm air at the ceiling level.
>>
>>>Why? I would expect it to be cooler. However, unless there is already
>>>an inversion, we can expect very quick turbulent diffusion I would
>>>think. Perhaps, Ceacaa can come up with an accurate expression for the
>>>eddy diffusivity.
>>
>> It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>>equations after this statement.

>If Mr. Giwer means my solution to the turbulent diffusion problem, I
>have indeed posted it many times.

Unfortunately, you have not, nor have you explained why cooler
air would be near the ceiling.

MANTRA! MANTRA!

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Asshole.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:27 PDT 1996
Article: 38090 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:50:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 5:50:48 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (JamesM4748) wrote:

>Hey idiot. as I said, white trash is white trash, and who in the hell
>really cares about AOL or whatever. The facts remain the same, Mat Giwer
>is white trash. I mean, a punk in the game of life. Nothing more, nothing
>less. What can I say.

You psychic abilities are amazing, child. Are you certain your
daddy is willing to pay the costs you run up on that piece of
shit service?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:28 PDT 1996
Article: 38093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 06:23:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 11:22:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>is a troller whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can
>>>sound superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said
>>>in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document
>>>claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation
>>>of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in
>>>actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack
>>>of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point
>>>in taking the time to read and respond.

>>> For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>> Holohuggers also substitute mantras for reason, pretend their
>>documentation is in fact documentation when it is mere repetition of
>>hearsay, and generally act like sanctimonious creationists with as little
>>regard for reason and honesty.

>This has to rank as one of the stupider Giwer-troll statements, even for
>him. It shows he has no understanding of the methodology used by
>researchers, and is unable to differentiate between the inductive and
>deductive methods.

>One would almost think that he is simply a troll, looking for a
>fight………

Colin McG has promised me the name of the mail bomber. I just
sent him all 37 copies of the mail bomb. I will post his
response when I recieve it. So what are you going to do about
the response?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:28 PDT 1996
Article: 38097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:33:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 4:33:08 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Alexander Baron wrote:

># Nazi documents,
>#
># I keep hearing a lot about these documents but all the important ones
># appear to have disappeared.

>Among all the Nazi documents detailing dastardly acts of mass
>murder and other forms of barbarism, the “Jager Report” is
>perhaps one of the most horrifying.

Horrifying? You are using the words from the books you read
again.

>Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Jager, commander of one
>of the “Einsatzkommandos” (EK 3), it provides a very detailed,
>blood-curling account of the murderous rampage of this “special
>squad” in Nazi-occupied USSR. Usually, the figures for Jews who were
>murdered by EK 3 are broken into “Jewish men”, “Jewish women”, and
>”Jewish children”.

Which is actually quite interesting in and of itself.

men 38586

women 47894

children 30633

undifferentiated 15646

Although one might presume a large number of men died in the war
it is unclear why his records start off killing only men and them
makes it up with a vengence against women.

There is also a remarkably small number of children involved. A
very unprolific breed perhaps.

And as we will see below the motivation for this killing is not
clear.

>To understand the magnitude of the massacres, note the total number
>of victims – 137,346. This is for one Einsatkommando, in a five month
>period, in one area. This report reflects very clearly on the plan
>to kill all the Jews, except those who were needed for working
>purposes; those were, as the report notes, “only” to be sterilized;
>Jager goes on to state that “if despite sterilization a Jewess
>becomes pregnant she will be liquidated”.

What does this have to do with explaining the motivation for this
killing?

>Detailed report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about mass killings
>in Nazi occupied USSR, July-November 1941
>[‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>——————————————————————

>The Commander of
>the security police and
>the SD
>Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941

>————————–
>|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
>————————– 4th copy

> Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
> up to 1 December 1941

>Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
>2 July 1941.
>(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
>Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
>Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)
>On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
>Lithuanian partisans:

>4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
>6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514

>Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of
>SS-Obersturmfuherer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the
>Einsatzkommando. the following actions were conducted in cooperation
>with Lithuanian partisans:

These efforts appear to have some connection with Lithuanian
partisans. It is not clear why a group charged with killing
people is involved with the partisans.

>18.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 689 Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
> 711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
> in reprisal for sabotage action 1,812

And here, an unneeded explanation.

>26.9.41 Kauen-F.IV 412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
> Jewish children (sick and
> suspected epidemic cases) 1,608

Here another example of an explanation where none is required.
This is strange.

It appears there is something you are leaving out of this story.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:29 PDT 1996
Article: 38104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Picture File: SS-Obersturmfuehrer Hoessler Poses in Belsen
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:57:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 5:57:30 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Sigh. Giwer, you ignorant clown: this photo was taken after
>the liberation of the camp.

Excuse me. You mean to say they were still killing people AFTER
the camp was liberated? Or are you saying this is a forced
posing to create false evidence?

Just what is it you are saying?

But you still have not proven who is in the picture, or who took
it, or that it is what it purports to be.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:30 PDT 1996
Article: 38107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 07:56:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:57:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes to corporal Matt
>(permanent latrine orderly)

>( these guys were unfit for combat so they cleaned the toilets and dug
>the slit trenches.)

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> If it has not been for Ike, you would have gotten the credit for
>> winning WW II singlehandedly.

>Yeah, probably, but modesty prevented me from taking away Ike’s much
>deserved credit. Plus the fact that I didn’t have any ambition to run
>for president of these United States. After Nixon’s foul ups, I wish I
>had. But then again, I’ve lead a happy life. Which is more that Giwer
>can say.
>Chuckles

Chuckles repeats that he was all that he has claimed.

Had there ever been any need to demonstrate the eyewitness
testimony is completely unreliable, Chuckles has proven it with
his own “testimony.” It is good we have a few of them still
alive and posting to make the case where the case did not have to
be made.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:31 PDT 1996
Article: 38112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:15:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:18:27 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>: themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>: heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>Are you suggesting that Louis Farrakhan is actually working for the
>Jews? I think he’d be more surprised about that than I would.

Are you suggesting Screwie Louie is not?

Jews and Blacks have been doing their “hymie and schwartze”
routine for decades have no idea what it is all about and could
care less. There must be some more appropriate newsgroup than
this to discuss it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 38113 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:12:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:15:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Alexander Baron wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
>>> It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>>> themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>>> heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>>Mr Giwer, stop telling these vicious truths. The Protocols is more of a
>>mystical document than an anti-Semitic one, but boy, don’t they scream.

>Mr. Baron is such an easy person to refute. first it was his stupid
>aryan “race” claims. Now it’s the
>_Protocols of the Elders of Zion_. I can use quite a mix of historians
>to refute this stupidity and the more the merrier.

>First Paul Johnson who is the authoe of _The Birth of the Modern_,
>_Modern Times_, _A History of the English People_,
>and the book we will quote from, _History of the Jews_.

If there was ever a need for evidence in favor of his position it
is the long, arcane quote of events even less known than the
Protocols themselves. You are talking about things a century or
more out of date that do not appear to have been more than a
passing interest at the time, having had no obvious influence
upon the course of history.

Can you say fetish?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 38123 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 03:40:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 8:35:36 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] Sun May 19 12:49:15 EDT 1996 writes:

># Here you describe the case of Anne Frank and her father. The fact
># that they survived Birkenau, and that Mr. Frank survived the war
># IS an inconsistency, IMHO.

>The main reason that they survived Auschwitz (Anne Frank later died
>in Belsen), was that they arrived towards the very end of the war,
>when Auschwitz – and the Nazi machine in general – was in chaos.

Excuse me for invoking the Gentile Rule but where is this
written? Do you finally have the balls to form your own opinion
and defend them? What chaos when 1) the camps were not part of
the war machine and 2) the ill Anne Frank was successfully
evacuated?

># That is why an absolute intentionalism, i.e., “All
># Jews must perish whatever the cost!” kind of imperative is rarely
># offered these days. Clearly, there were competing imperatives.

>Not really. Not in 1942 and 1943. The Nazi goal was indeed to kill
>each and every Jew. When they began losing the war, they became
>afraid; which is probably why some Jews survived.

Afraid of what? You folks have extermination continuing up until
the camps were liberated else your citations of the piles of
bodies found upon liberation means nothing other than deaths from
camp conditions.

>[To Matt Giwer]
>
># You may be involved in debunking nonsense, but your approach to
># your subject is unnecessarily abrasive not to say cruel and
># disrespectful.

>Well said.

That you folks put an emotional load into it is your business.
That you are in a conference designated for revising the current
dogma is your choice. If you don’t like it, leave.

># Here you discuss Zyklon B. You are right, Zyklon may release lethal
># poison in a short duration, but the pellets continue to release
># gas for several hours.

>Not according to the patent and to the book by Dr. Gerhard Peters,
>the leading scientist of the firm that manufactured Zyklon;
>according to these two sources, most of the cyanide gas is released
>within 10 minutes.

So call him a neo-nazi simply because he knows better than that
nonsense you folks are spouting.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:33 PDT 1996
Article: 38132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:55:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 5:55:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># It has already been agreed that she was sent to Auschwitz and
># moved to Belsen by one of your fellow holohuggers. All that is
># left to establish is that she was suffering from typhus when
># evacuated.

>Yes, she was sent to Auschwitz and from there to Belsen, where she
>died.

>The claim that she was suffering from typhus in Auschwitz was
>made by you. Can you back it up, or is it one more of your lies?

When one of you folks are honest enough to post it, it will be
established. It is unfortunate but true that anything I post is
automatically denied particularly when true. That is why I have
not posted regarding the two trial of Rudolph Hoess. One of you
folks is going to have to post it.

But then, even without typhus, it is not clear what kind of labor
skills a 14 year old would have had to have been kept alive in
the first place. And of course she was not the youngest child in
the camps. Jewish children are such skilled laborers you
realize.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:34 PDT 1996
Article: 38133 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!coconut!fred.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:18:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 10:18:25 PM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38133 soc.culture.jewish:52057 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20470 soc.culture.israel:34278

Roger Froikin wrote:

>Yehuda SIlver wrote:

>> : It’s just that simple.
>>
>> Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!

>Yehuda, though I agree 100 % with you on this, one cannot use as
>evidence documentation the other side does not even recognize.

>What is relevant is that few Palestinians (other than the ones with
>Jewish ancestry) can trace their ancestors back farther than 400 years
>in Palestine, and that all of them came as squatters, squatting on
>someone else’s land, Jewish land.

>They had no right to be there, to settle there, or to remain there, much
>less any legal claim.

And any Jews from Europe left either from Judea because of the
rebellion in 76AD or voluntarily, period.

It is an absurd onto idiotic claim not supported any place else
in the history of property or property rights.

And beyond that NONE of this, property ownership, has the
slightest thing to do with creating a political entity of a
nation. Not one bit of it applies in the least. Property
ownership has nothing to do with the existence of Israel, period.

What is your point in all of this? That if you own your own land
you can declare your own nation?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:35 PDT 1996
Article: 38141 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:32:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 19 7:24:25 PM PDT 1996

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># It has been over a week now and the subject of ramifications of
># diesel exhaust looking like steam, that is the gas chambers
># becoming saturated with oil and being potential fuel air bombs
># while in operation, appears to have fallen into the “too hard”
># category for the holohuggers to deal with.

>It wasn’t too hard to deal with, it’s simply that after some time
>your “arguments” become too idiotic to respond to. Just in case
>you missed the following:

>1) You started by claiming that diesel engines cannot produce
> white exhaust. Then, you admitted you made an error.

ONLY, to repeat ONLY because YOU claimed CO poisoning. We have
been over this. But you know that.

>2) You went on to claim that the oil in the exhaust would result
> in a danger of explosion. You failed to post the relevant
> technical information: how much oil would result in such an
> “explosion”, and what temperature would be needed to trigger
> it. You made the idiotic conjecture that a spark from the
> trains(!!) would result in an explosion, while the trains
> were nowhere close enough to the gas chambers for this to be
> a possibility.

YOU brought up temperature. I said any flame. I pointed to all
the outdoor burning pits, the train locomotive, and backfires in
the diesels themselves as the source of such flame. I also
pointed to the wind carrying sparks from the first two sources.

And yet you come back with only one possibility and still ignore
the wind.

>3) When asked how come the British researchers, running a diesel
> in exactly these conditions, suffered no “explosions”, you
> responded with “maybe they were lucky”. A response almost
> as idiotic as your suggestion that the mention of a gas
> chamber in the Krema V construction documents is due to
> “morbid humor”.

Very lucky is the best explanation OR, now that you point it out,
he knew was he was doing and took precautions against it. No
backfire, no explosion.

You have not discussed this subject honestly. Your excuse for
the misidentification is a lethal excuse. And you even pretend
to be able to judge a technical explanation.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:35 PDT 1996
Article: 38174 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:31:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 11:30:47 AM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38174 soc.culture.jewish:52110 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20486 soc.culture.israel:34293

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>Roger Froikin wrote:
>>
>>>Yehuda SIlver wrote:
>>
>>>> : It’s just that simple.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!
>>
>>>Yehuda, though I agree 100 % with you on this, one cannot use as
>>>evidence documentation the other side does not even recognize.
>>
>>>What is relevant is that few Palestinians (other than the ones with
>>>Jewish ancestry) can trace their ancestors back farther than 400
>years
>>>in Palestine, and that all of them came as squatters, squatting on
>>>someone else’s land, Jewish land.
>>
>>>They had no right to be there, to settle there, or to remain there,
>much
>>>less any legal claim.
>>
>> And any Jews from Europe left either from Judea because of the
>>rebellion in 76AD or voluntarily, period.
>>
>> It is an absurd onto idiotic claim not supported any place else
>>in the history of property or property rights.
>>
>> And beyond that NONE of this, property ownership, has the
>>slightest thing to do with creating a political entity of a
>>nation. Not one bit of it applies in the least. Property
>>ownership has nothing to do with the existence of Israel, period.
>>
>> What is your point in all of this? That if you own your own land
>>you can declare your own nation?

>No, but I think even you can’t dispute that until the great expulsion,
>there was a Jewish nation in that part of the world.

And, as they used to say, what does that have to do with the
price of tea in China?

A generically independent political entity might have existed for
about 800 years ending in 600 BCE. The Iriquois Nations existed
in North America for over 600 years. Are claiming that someone
like Mussolini has the right to re-establish the Roman Empire
which was around for 1000 years?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:36 PDT 1996
Article: 38178 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:28:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 12:27:59 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>[About Anne Frank]
>
>## The claim that she was suffering from typhus in Auschwitz was
>## made by you. Can you back it up, or is it one more of your lies?
>
># When one of you folks are honest enough to post it, it will be
># established. It is unfortunate but true that anything I post is
># automatically denied particularly when true.

>This is just unbelievable. He makes a claim. He is asked to
>document it. And then he says that he cannot document it, but
>that one of “you folks” has to document it!!

>Incredible, this man is just incredible.

>Retired at 50 you say? It’s becoming quite clear why. Amazing
>it took so long.

I have told you folks where to find the information. You folks
are fully aware that anything I post is subject to the endless
“prove it” routine in hopes the subject will disappear while
pursuing the routine.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:37 PDT 1996
Article: 38179 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:41:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:39:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>### It is also interesting that after the production facilities
>### were destroyed 5 tons were ordered and delivered.
>
>## 1) State your source for the production facilities being destroyed.
>
># What you posted.

>Liar, I never posted anything like this. You’re lying again.

I agree it is difficult to keep you holohuggers straight. Van
Alstine actually.

===

“The delivery system worked dependably until March, 1944, when
the Dessau Zyklon plant was bombed and heavily damaged.[6]

6. “DEGESCH business report for 1944, April 23, 1946, NI-9093.”
(Ibid. p.571fn.)

===

>## 2) State your source for these being the only production facilities.
>
># I presumed what you posted was complete. So where did it come
># from?

>Liar, I never posted anything like this. You’re lying again.

Can I not simply be mistaken?

But take it up with Alstine.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:38 PDT 1996
Article: 38180 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:46:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:45:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>Alexander Baron wrote:

>>>>In article <[email protected]>
>>>> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
>>>>> It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>>>>> themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>>>>> heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>>>>Mr Giwer, stop telling these vicious truths. The Protocols is more of a
>>>>mystical document than an anti-Semitic one, but boy, don’t they scream.

>>>Mr. Baron is such an easy person to refute. first it was his stupid
>>>aryan “race” claims. Now it’s the
>>>_Protocols of the Elders of Zion_. I can use quite a mix of historians
>>>to refute this stupidity and the more the merrier.

>>>First Paul Johnson who is the authoe of _The Birth of the Modern_,
>>>_Modern Times_, _A History of the English People_,
>>>and the book we will quote from, _History of the Jews_.

>> If there was ever a need for evidence in favor of his position it
>>is the long, arcane quote of events even less known than the
>>Protocols themselves.

>It’s called history and evidence. Something Mr. Giwer-troll fails to
>understand. He also has the stupidity to claim it is being kept from
>publication. Funny, I see the forgery on the net and I see it all the
>time at book shows.

“Kept from publication”? If that is what you got from what I
wrote you are among the humor impaired.

That should have been obvious when you seriously believe anyone
would ever take the nonsense seriously.

>> You are talking about things a century or
>>more out of date that do not appear to have been more than a
>>passing interest at the time, having had no obvious influence
>>upon the course of history.

>> Can you say fetish?

>Yes, I can.

Then find a better one.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:38 PDT 1996
Article: 38182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: which buildings for gassing
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:56:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:54:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># This is of course a minor point but why in the 22 months Rudolph
># Hoess was under arrest did no one think to ask him which
># buildings were used for gassing?
>#
># Why is not his 120 book the definitive reference to answer all
># questions about A-B?

>Are you now claiming that Hoess doesn’t mention which buildings
>were used for gassing?

>Is that what you’re saying?

I wrote what I said. Can’t you read?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:39 PDT 1996
Article: 38184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:55:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:53:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gord
>>McFee) writes:

>>>Subject: Re: Holocaust?
>>>From: [email protected] (Gord McFee)
>>>Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 13:21:12 EDT
>>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Ehrlich606) said:
>>>
>>>>> Holohuggers also substitute mantras for reason, pretend their
>>>>>documentation is in fact documentation when it is mere repetition
>>>>>of hearsay, and generally act like sanctimonious creationists
>>>>>with as little regard for reason and honesty.
>>>>>
>>>>Yeah, and the Nizkor FAQ is not far removed from the Q & A that I used
>>to
>>>>get in catechism, if I may speak openly! Nizkor Catechism …. hmmm
>>>
>>>>I am going to come out on Matt’s side THIS TIME, because the
>>>>conventionalists are acting like True Believers with the constant
>>>>repetition of the Nizkorite Creed as revealed by the Prophet McVay.
>>>>Reminds me of a bunch of kids trying to break a kid who is different by
>>>>repeating the same silly rhyme. Maybe they think that Matt will start
>>to
>>>>cry and go home.
>>>
>>>Moving quickly over to the other side, Mr. Ehrlich? You are so
>>*reasonable*
>>>and all.

>>No, I am just getting irritated at the way conventionalists are ending all
>>of their posts to Matt with the same mantra, which, as I understand,
>>derives from a statement from McVay.

>Total bull. Your position is obvious and it isn’t conventionalist. It
>is a Nazi White-wash position. The obviousness of bashing certain
>folks in the manner that you do and using th terms that you do is not
>the position of a “reasonable” historian. You have presented us with
>articles that are absent of citation and full of personal opinion.
>When you have been asked for citation we get silence. I’ve seen this
>606 dance before. Some of us are not going to be so gullible.

In other words, you agree with him but will not admit it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:40 PDT 1996
Article: 38185 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:06:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:06:41 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer writes:

># I agree, you are a technological illiterate who has no business
># posting as other than that.
>#
># You apparently do not realize what you are admitting.
>#
># You are unqualified to discuss this subject.
>#
># Sorry about that.

>Don’t be sorry. Prove me wrong by responding to the questions
>asked of you.

>The white fumes in the Pattle et. al. experiments were present
>also when the engine was run without load, with low fuel-air
>ratio, which means you can take your “the chambers would have
>become fuel-air bombs” rubbish, and bury it together with the
>rest of the discarded “revisionist” hogwash.

>You have nothing to respond with, having made a fool of yourself
>for the second time during this debate about the diesel exhaust;
>So you’re resulting to childish insults.

Sorry, oh technically incompetent one, but your white stuff is
still vaporized oil. That you can not comprehend the problem
with that regarding flammability and explosiveness is your
problem not mine.

You will remain in your technical ignorance and continue to give
holocaust orthodoxy a bad name.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:40 PDT 1996
Article: 38186 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:12:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:07:17 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># You have admitted you are unqualifed to discuss any technical
># subject.

>Ha-ha.

># Please go away. You are out of your league.

>Prove it. So far you have only proved you know nothing about
>diesel engines, and about any other technical issue that was
>discussed here.

If you had understood what you were reading you would not have
continued to claim death by CO poisoning. You would have known
enough yourself to question the claim of death by that means in
the paper.

You can’t just read a few popular science articles and claim
expertise on technical matters. It really isn’t that simple.
You may learn that some day.

But whether you learn it or not, your explanation is still
nonsense and results in exactly what I said. You can bluster all
you wish but you can not change that.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:41 PDT 1996
Article: 38187 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:23:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:15:07 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:

>> But our killfile challenge attorney knows a patent attorney who
>>would consider you position laughable. Considering that both are
>>from Pennsylvania, it gives a new meaning to Philadelphia lawyer.
>>The last I heard it is the same as shyster.

>Perfect example of a comment that is easily taken as anti-semitic. That’s
>one.

Rather one that will be selectively called antisemitic by those
who look under their beds every night for nazis reading the
Protocols.

But there is no question that he has claimed to know a patent
attorney …

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:42 PDT 1996
Article: 38188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:29:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:24:17 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) writes:

># A claim in a patent often has nothing to do with the working item,

>I really can’t consider this a serious argument. And it’s not
>only the patent. Moreover, you claim it would have been “dangerous”
>if the release was fast. Why, then, would the inventors give a
>figure which would make their product appear “dangerous”? This
>makes no sense.

Give it up. You have no technical background much less any
experience with patents.

># You certainly wouldn’t want to have this feature for the standard
># use of the stuff.

>Why not?

I have already explained that to you by pointing you to the
claims of your fellow holohuggers that it takes so much longer to
kill insects.

># the release time is indeed several hours long,

>I will try to check this.

Where? How? Will you understand what you read if you find it?
How will you understand it if you find it?

># Keep in mind what the material was used for–fumigation. It would
># be dangerous and highly inefficient if the release occured that
># quickly.

>Says who? Why do the original Degesch instruction note that the
>Zyklon should be spread in such a way so as to make the release
>as fast as possible?

For EXACTLY WHICH application?

># Rudolf’s data indicated a time period of
># 1/2 hour to release 63% of the remaining absorbed HCN.

>A few questions:

>1) Is he correctly quoting the alleged source?

>2) Is this the same product as Zyklon?

>3) What will happen in temperatures higher than 20 degrees? As
> in a room filled with people, which is rather hot?

Those are questions I asked you about the claims you were making
for the “patent” and you REFUSED to answer. Why is that? What
makes you think you could understand the answer?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:42 PDT 1996
Article: 38192 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:48:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 11:47:10 AM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38192 soc.culture.jewish:52134 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20494 soc.culture.israel:34300

[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>Roger Froikin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Yehuda SIlver wrote:

>: > : It’s just that simple.
>: >
>: > Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!

>: Yehuda, though I agree 100 % with you on this, one cannot use as
>: evidence documentation the other side does not even recognize.

>Why not?

>They quote their mantally ill prophet all the time!
>They don’t care whether we recognize the psycho or not!

>why are Isralei leaders so ashamed to ask for Kosher food at white house
>dinners?

Because one of Clinton’s campaign promises was that he would keep
a Glatt Kosher kitchen at the White House and they don’t want to
embarrass him any further.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:43 PDT 1996
Article: 38194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 21:01:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 2:00:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

> If I remember right you did not like this the last time I jumped
>in but lets try it one more time.

> One of the unfortunate consequences of post Napoleanic Wars times
>is that the civilian population became active participants in
>war. Until aircraft became a significant factor in war it was
>impossible to carry the war to the civilian infrastructure
>supporting the war. The industrial revolution only made this
>more obvious and more essential to get the source of supplies.

> Thus it was possible to maintain the rather ancient fiction of
>hold civilians harmless in war. This fiction was first broken by
>Sherman in the US Civil War but it was continued for nearly a
>century for lack of serious means of implementation.

> For a few brief years that comprised WW II it became possible to
>bring the war to the civilian infrastructure that supported the
>military and thus any factory and city containing a factory and
>any city containing workers in any factory became a legitimate
>target.

> WW II became a testing ground for the mass destruction of the
>civilian support of the military. Given the technology of the
>time, fire bombing was the first method tried.

> After the A Bomb the entire game was over, the solution had been
>found for the problem that was hardly 125 years old at the time.
>Things do change quickly these days.

>**********

>I do too many of these things, don’t recall objecting to your inputs, nor
>do I to these. I agree with what you say here, but would like to add a
>note explaining my own perspective.

>The wasting of the German cities and their civilian populations did little
>if anything to shorten the war. Like the bombing of London, it aroused
>the survivors to greater effort and hatred of the enemy who would do this.
> It in fact is very likely that actions such as this prolonged the war.
>If this is what the bastards are doing to us now, what will they do if we
>surrender? Turned out there was basis for that fear too.

>If mass murder selectively applied would shorten a war, you could make an
>argument to support the practice. No sane moral basis, of course, just a
>question of efficiency. But I don’t know of a case where it can be
>demonstrated to have been effective. All Sherman managed to do was kindle
>a hatred that still exists today, and to whose benefit does that accrue,
>North or South. Memories of massacres are long. A great many of our top
>military men in WWII supported neither the fire-bombing nor the atom
>bombs. It’s funny to read gung-ho histories of the war and note that when
>Hitler bombed London it was a major stupid mistake because of the resolve
>it aroused, and then to say our own commission of the same act multiplied
>to a horrific scale was done to try to get the attention of the Nazis, but
>the crazy bastards kept on fighting when it was obvious all was lost. Say
>what???

Although a case can be made against the Dresden bombing, it was
the very fact that it was undefended that permitted the test to
be conducted, to see if it would work in the first place.

As to its effect upon the war, it is difficult to see that it did
not effect the war. Production facilities were being destroyed.
In Japan firebombing was more effective than the bomb.

Although one can question Sherman’s methods, he learned them when
he was CO of the garrison at Vicksberg. He had accepted the word
of the civilians that there would be no hostilities yet his men
were being killed at night, where possible with a bullet to the
stomach with the intention of causing a slow and painful death.
He came to believe that unless the civilians felt the pain of war
as much as the troops that they would never stop supporting the
war.

That thinking is quite in line with the post Napoleanic ability
of civilians to support the military with more than cannon
fodder.

But remember, this ability to perform such mass murders came with
WW II saturation bombing and ended in August 1945. It was only a
short period of time when this was possible. We don’t live in a
world like that any longer.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:44 PDT 1996
Article: 38195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust (for Moran)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 21:15:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-32.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 4:14:40 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> >TOMMY OLD BUDDY, OLD PAL…THIS HAS BEEN POSTED ON THIS SITE SO MANY
>> >TIMES, THE “GOOD GUYS” HOLLER “ENOUGH ALL READY!” 🙂
>> >This just for you, Tommy.
>> >
>> >Holocaust Experiences
>> >By
>> >Charles V. Ferree
>> >Our unit had moved from France into Germany near Frankfurt. We
>> >continued to fly combat missions from that location until the war
>> >ended in May of 1945.
>> >Ten of us were assigned to fly ranking officers to Nazi concentration
>> >camps being liberated. The rumors became reality as three L-5
>> >Observation planes were dispatched to Buchenwald. Our passengers,
>> >medical officers, military police, legal and intelligence officers
>> >were to assess the situation and report to General Eisenhower.
>>
>> Chuck, I have read this before. I’ll take your word for it you
>> were there.

>Listen up, Tom and I’m serious…you asked me to post my personal
>experieices with the camps and even though all this has been done
>before, I did it again for you. Now you start picking it apart
>infering that Edward R. Morrow gave me the idea. This is an insult,
>Tom, and you ought to give some thought to where I’m coming from as
>opposed to where you, Giwer, Swiger and other deniers are coming from.

I thought that rather he was pointing out Morrow’s account
DIFFERS from yours. Are you suggesting they put bodies all over
the place just for you to report? After all, as a fighter pilot,
mulit-engine pilot, camp liberator and war crimes prosecutor, you
had a busy life during the war. You might have some things
confused.

>You guys only know what you’ve read in revisionist books, you never
>set foot in the camps, I did, what I say I witnesses, I witnessed, and
>some asshole who is trolling around taking pot shops at everyone with
>credibility, people who know personally what happened and were on the
>sites, with personal contacts with inmates, Nazis, SS troopers, and
>the like sure don’t need to hear from guys like you bunch of twerps,
>whose forte is cheap shot one liners, and casting aspersions, because
>you don’t want to believe it happened the way it really happened.

Credibility? You are taking too many of your answers to “what
did you do in the war, grandpa?” seriously.

>> What you saw was a horrible scene, and that is regretful for your
>> psyche, but it is not proof of any mass extermination.

>There was mass extermination and you know it. You didn’t read anything
>in my story about mass extermination, even though the Nazis carried
>out a successful mass extermination plan. Another thing, Moran, you
>keep harping about proof, yet you and Giwer, Swiger et al, never
>bother to try and prove anything you claim, you just question the
>credibility of others, who know much more about this subject than all
>of the three of you put together.

> Evidentally you
>> harbor these scenes and use them to accept all else.

>Quit playing professional “shrink” for God’s sake, man. This is really
>stupid. It’s ” evidentally this” “maybe that,” “could have been the
>other.” More guessing than anything else. Expressions of your
>opinions, well, opinions don’t count in this situation. What happened,
>happened, I saw some of it, you didn’t see any of it, so what makes
>you think you are an expert is your reading stuff which is more
>speculation that historical facts.

What you saw changes regularly.

>> There must have been a time when you thought Buchenwald and
>> Dachau were extermination camps

>I never heard that word used at any time while I was in any of the
>camps. I read it just like you did after the war in Life magazine,
>newspapers etc. We didn’t even consider the Nazis capable of murdering
>millions of people. What we saw in the various camps gave us a clue,
>but no one knew the magnitude of the Holocaust until they began
>putting all the pieces together later.

Yet you have claimed to have seen a gas chamber at Buchenwald, or
was it one of the dozen other camps you liberated single-handed?

>> interested in hearing what your reactions and emotions were when you
>> found out.

>Horseshit, Moran, you aren’t interested in anything I have to say.
>You’re just going around yanking on people’s chains.
>I feel sort of like the guy that said to you something like: “don’t
>ever come around my town.” your ass would be mud. I gonna ignore you
>are the rest of those slimey bastards from now on, it’s like trying to
>make conversation with a dead man.

That’s the way it goes, gramps.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:44 PDT 1996
Article: 38208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 21:29:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-32.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 4:27:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># Fascinating. After all of these stories and indoctrination and
># everything else about the holocaust about the SS about the Nazis
># suddenly for the first time we hear about females in the ranks of
> ^^
># the SS. And of course they were assigned to the camps.
>
>Excuse me? “We”?
>
>You’re projecting your ignorance upon all of us? Ever heard
>of Maria Mandel? Juana Bormann? And the rest of the lot?

You mean the bigshots got their women on the payroll?

># How did I miss and you find all of the women in the German
># military all of these years? Not to mention finding them in the
># SS. If this does not strike you as incongrous why does it not?`
>
>How come you miss? Because you’re terribly ignorant, and you
>don’t know anything. How’s that? For the sake of Adolf Hitler’s
>lonely testicle, now I have to explain why you don’t know
>anything!? Give me a break!

Did they look anything like Janet Reno?

>## 1) Belsen was in Germany, not Poland.
>
># Even better.
>
>Yes, “even better”. Let it be noted that the almighty Holocaust
>expert, with 163 IQ to boot, Matt Giwer, didn’t even know that
>Belsen was in Germany.

I just jumped to the conclusion that you were claiming they were
gassed. Now that it was Belsen, they could not have been.

># So these people in the picture died of natural causes.
>
>Since when is being starved to death, shot, or beaten to
>death, a “natural cause”?

I see no evidence in the picture as to the cause of death. What
do you see?

># Good to hear.
>
>”Good to hear”? When your wife died (of natural causes I assume?),
>was that “good to hear”? (I aplogize if I’m making a mistake,
>but I recall you posted that your second wife died).

Actually, yes.

># Were all the men missing?
>
>The SS-men also had to bury the corpses.

Everybody on corpse detail but gee was I not told the picture was
taken after the war and the Brits ordered it? I don’t see any
signs of bloating either.

># Or was it some sort of determined cruelty to order the women
># to do it?
>
>Three of the SS-women were also hanged by the British, for crimes
>committed in Auschwitz and Belsen.

The lampshade broad among them, right?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:45 PDT 1996
Article: 38210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 23:30:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 6:33:11 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Who knows, perhaps someone who had access to the files saw a
>> >decrease in the shipments of Zyklon B to the camp during the time the
>> >mass exterminations were said to have taken place and this is what
>> >gave him/them the incentive to purloin some of the records.
>>
>> It is also interesting that after the production facilities were
>> destroyed 5 tons were ordered and delivered.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer’s reading skills, not to mention his poor research
>skills, seems to be sliding further towards non-existance. Giwer has
>obviously “confused” the Dessua Zyklon plant being heavily _damaged_, in
>March 1944, with being _destroyed_. Giwer also fails to realize that
>Dessuaur Werke was but of one of _two_ manufacturers of Zyklon. The other
>was Kaliwerke at Kolin. (Hillberg, _Destruction_; pp.571,568.)

What was the point in mentioning it at all? Or did it just
happen to be in the file you mindlessly posted?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:46 PDT 1996
Article: 38211 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 23:30:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 6:33:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>> […] And the saddest thing is that Giwer is
>>>no teenage punk; he’s 50 years old.
>>
>> 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster.

> Why should anyone bother to remember a claim that could be made by
>anyone on a psychiatric disability pension?

Tired of trying to spread the drinking story and need another?
Good try. Lets see how many times you have to repeat it before
others start taking it as true. You must be Jewish to do such a
think.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:47 PDT 1996
Article: 38212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 23:34:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 4:33:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree Wrote:

>If Giwer’s IQ is more than 30-40, I’ll buy you all a beer! He hires a
>monkey to do his typing for him.

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
> And try to do some reading before. So you won’t tell us that Belsen
>> >camp was in Poland, you 163-IQ-Holocaust-expert you.
>>
>> Despite the attempt, Anne Frank was recovering from typhus when
>> evacuated.

>This another one of Giwer’s bald-faced lies. Anne Frank and her
>sister, both were contaminated with the Typhus AFTER they were in
>Bergen-Belsen. No one knows for certain the date Anne Frank died from
>the disease. But she’s buried in a trench dug by the British and
>covered with lime and dirt, as are the other 50-60 thousand Nazi
>prisoners who perished from the neglect by the Nazis. Further more,
>for someone like Giwer to argue about her death, and question a person
>like Dan, with his credentials, just goes to show what type of a
>person Matt Giwer really is.
>Chuck

>Giwer, does it ever accure to you to wonder why some innocent little
>girl like Anne Frank had to die like that?
>Chuckles

Did it ever occur to you that you are senile?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:47 PDT 1996
Article: 38219 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:20:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:22:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Richard J. Green) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, Ceacaa wrote:
>>
>> >This ties into my question about HCN rising. Green wrote:
>> > > “It’s the temperature of the gas and the
>> >> turbulence that will determine the dispersion.”
>> >
>> >Exactly so. If your cone was at the ceiling level, the vaporising
>> >HCN would have the same temperature as the surrounding
>> >warm air at the ceiling level.
>>
>> Why? I would expect it to be cooler. However, unless there is already
>> an inversion, we can expect very quick turbulent diffusion I would
>> think. Perhaps, Ceacaa can come up with an accurate expression for the
>> eddy diffusivity.
>>
>> >I speculate that it would not
>> >drop to the colder denser air of the floor level but would, in
>> >effect, create an inversion level. A fan would be an obvious
>> >answer to the dispersion problem but you haven’t mentioned
>> >one yet.
>>
>> BTW- I’m writing form a new system I’m trying to sety up; it may fail.

>BTW, Ceacaa, what evidence do you have that the Zyklon B in the removeable
>core was suspended near the ceiling? And if there _was_ (which I doubt) a
>problem with HCN dispersion if the Zyklon was so suspended, what would
>have stopped the Nazis from simply lowering it on subsequent gassing until
>they found the optimun height for maximum lethality? After all, we KNOW
>the Nazis used Zyklon B with maximum lethal effects….

>Tsk Tsk! Sounds like you’re simply setting up and knocking down a strawman
>of your own devising, Ceacaa!

All we know is that your favorite “eyewitnesses” gave
ridiculously short times and failed to mention any other major
feature of such an operation.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:48 PDT 1996
Article: 38220 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:28:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:29:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>In another post, this turkey claims that Germans caught in the Dresden
>Fire Storm, actually glowed in the dark, turned orange or some color
>and then just vanished into thin air. He continues that the event
>itself was well documented on movie film by both sides. He needs to
>think about this before he throws one of his cheapshot on-liners at
>me.
>The allies couldn’t film anything except the blazing city from high in
>the air, the Germans couldn’t film anything, because they would have
>turned purple and disappeared into thin air. So If Giwer has some way
>to prove such film exists, I’d like to see it.
>Prove it, Giwer, or shut the fuck up.
>Chuck

You are definitely senile, Chuckles.

I am not the one who said that about Dresden. NO ONE said
anything about film of it.

It is time for you to get into something more your speed these
days, like bingo.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:49 PDT 1996
Article: 38238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:18:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:19:24 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38238 soc.culture.jewish:52226 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20515 soc.culture.israel:34330

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:
>>
>>>Roger Froikin ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>: Yehuda SIlver wrote:
>>
>>>: > : It’s just that simple.
>>>: >
>>>: > Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!
>>
>>>: Yehuda, though I agree 100 % with you on this, one cannot use as
>>>: evidence documentation the other side does not even recognize.
>>
>>>Why not?
>>
>>>They quote their mantally ill prophet all the time!
>>>They don’t care whether we recognize the psycho or not!
>>
>>>why are Isralei leaders so ashamed to ask for Kosher food at white
>house
>>>dinners?
>>
>> Because one of Clinton’s campaign promises was that he would keep
>>a Glatt Kosher kitchen at the White House and they don’t want to
>>embarrass him any further.
>>
>>—–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>>
>You stink, you know. Giwer. Why would Clinton even consider a kosher
>kitchen for Rabin or Peres, neither of whom ate kossher. Maybe he
>would consider it for his buddy Arafat.

Clinton is the one who promised, not me. Take it up with him.
Need his email address?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:50 PDT 1996
Article: 38239 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:17:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38239 soc.culture.jewish:52227 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20516 soc.culture.israel:34331

[email protected]ix.netcom.com(Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>

>>>> What is your point in all of this? That if you own your own land
>>>>you can declare your own nation?
>>
>>
>>>No, but I think even you can’t dispute that until the great
>expulsion,
>>>there was a Jewish nation in that part of the world.
>>
>> And, as they used to say, what does that have to do with the
>>price of tea in China?
>>
>> A generically independent political entity might have existed for
>>about 800 years ending in 600 BCE. The Iriquois Nations existed
>>in North America for over 600 years. Are claiming that someone
>>like Mussolini has the right to re-establish the Roman Empire
>>which was around for 1000 years?

>As a matter of fact the Iroquois still do consider themselves a nation
>as well as many of the other tribes. Ask anyone who lives in Salamanca,
>N.Y. if the Senecas are still a nation.

Ask them if they have tried to take the land back recently.

>Your inference regarding the Roman Empire is ridiculous because anyone
>who has read any history knows what happened there.

As does anyone reading the history of the middle east knows the
rather minor contribution the Israelites had to the region. If
it were not for the religious history of the region they would be
hardly more than an arcane footnote to history.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:51 PDT 1996
Article: 38242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 03:54:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:54:58 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 17 May 1996 11:17:34 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote
>and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Because I don’t hate Matt. He is amusing and totally wrong and a troll.
>!Matt respects me because he knows that I don’t knee-jerk or fall for
>!his stunts. Also because we both despise Dave Dahlman. Enemy of my
>!enemy thing.

>Yeah Matt is one of those GOOD anti-Semites and Holocaust revisionists.

>I gather that name refers to me? I think “despise”is too light a word.:)
>And why do you think it is that YOU and GIWER “dispise” me so much?
>I’ve never lied about a thing, I’ve never forged a message, I’ve never
>investigated anyone, threatened anyone…

And of course you have never called anyone and tried to get their
access terminated. Charlen Kyle, Bill Blomgren, Jim Kittrell all
say otherwise. But you never lie. You never do such things.
Interesting though, the person who made the calls to all of them
gave his name as David Dahlman. How do you suppose that David
Dahlman got around to leading to a threat of lawsuit to VOLANT?

You know, Davey-girl, you aren’t even good at lying. Why do you
make it such a habit? You have had years of practice already and
not a bit of improvement.

>Let me tell you why. Its because I do not run and hide from lying little
>shits like you two. The process is to draw you both out so you show
>yourselves to any newcomers on the net to be what I and many others
>already know you are. Its about the ONLY thing you both do well.

If you are not hiding, why all the fake names? If you are not
hiding, why not give your address? [315 Biscayne, El Lago,
Texas]

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:52 PDT 1996
Article: 38243 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:25:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:26:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[email protected] (Jeff Remillard) wrote:

> And by the way Mr. Moran, you’re not an anit-Semite because you
> tell lies about Jews, you tell lies about Jews because you’re
> an anti-Semite.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> For someone who just started reading the conference, you have
> joined the class of mind readers very quickly. How did you
> manage that?

>On the contrary, Mr. Remillard has been reading Mr. Moran’s posts,
>and drawing valid conclusions from there.

>That is something Mr. Giwer is incapable of doing, as his reading
>comprehension suffers.

I have yet to master your skill at reading with prejudice.

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>For Mr. Giwer, it is not a question of how many died, but how many of
>their surviving relatives he can insult and brow-beat.

If they want to discuss holocaust orthodoxy let them find an
appropriate conference for it. They are here by choice.
Besides, considering how many relatives they each lost there
can’t be more than a few thousand of them around.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:52 PDT 1996
Article: 38246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:58:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 1:58:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># You should think of it that way. I really can see you at 65 on
># Social Security wondering what happened to you.

>Well, give me a call if you’re still around when I’m 65. Ok? And
>try to do some reading before. So you won’t tell us that Belsen
>camp was in Poland, you 163-IQ-Holocaust-expert you.

Despite the attempt, Anne Frank was recovering from typhus when
evacuated.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:53 PDT 1996
Article: 38248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kremas II & III vice IV and V
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:57:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:58:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> It has been a while on the morgue conversion to gas chambers or
>> bomb shelters discussion but we still have a major point
>> unaddressed by experts such as Dahlman and Ferre here.
>>
>> According to the caption on the picture of the gas chamber on IV
>> it was a above ground room that is better identified as the
>> undressing room.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer, still refusing to educate himself in the basics
>regarding the layouts and operation of the Kremas, fails to recognize that
>the gas chambers, which were located at the opposite end of the Krema from
>the furnace room, was separated by a morgue. During good weather the
>victims undressed _outside_ and were herded into the gas chambers (either
>through the doors that opened to the outside or through the vestibule),
>gassed, and then dragged, via the vestibule, into the morgue. In bad
>weather, the victims were brought into the morgue to undress, herded into
>the gas chambers via the vestibule, gassed, and then dragged, via the
>vestibule, back into the morgue. The corpses, in either case, once they
>had been scavanged in the morgue, were taken through the air lock
>(schleuse) and into the furnace room where they were incinerated. Later,
>for Krema V (Krema IV being disabled), when the incineration pits were
>used to augment the furnaces, corpses were dragged outside from the gas
>chambers and incinerated in the pits.

Take it up with Nizkor if you don’t like it. Leave me out of it.
Just because it answers the idiot claim about IV and V being
improved as gas chambers when in fact it was a different building
at IV and V is simply something that shoots down the claim that
some features indicate LK II and III were gas chambers.

>> It was even pointed out by an expert in the Dahlman/Ferre
>> category that morgue-like features were removed from LK IV and V
>> that would make them more bomb shelter like.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, continuing to beat his “bomb shelter” dead horse,
>now posits that the gas chambers in Kremas IV and IV, which were entirely
>_above-ground_ structures, were “bomb shelter like!” One might ask Kremas
>IV and V, which were _above-ground_ buildings contructed of _brick_, could
>even remotely be construed as being “bomb shelter like?” The answer seems
>to be simply becuase Giwer says so!

That is clearly not what I am saying despite what you would like
it to read.

The caption for the picture of the above ground room is.

krema4.gif Krema IV, showing gas introduction slits

You should pay more attention.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:54 PDT 1996
Article: 38250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:03:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 9:04:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >No kidding? When one ages, one automatically becomes an expert in all
>: >those things, whether they’ve had any actual experience or not? And I’ll
>: >become an automatic expert in chemsistry, and anthropology, just by
>: >living to be 50? ? I don’t have to study or anything?
>:
>: >What a fascinating fantasy world you live in.
>:
>: If you truly expect not to need or want to learn anything after
>: graduation you are certainly in for a surprise or a long term
>: career in the fast food industry.

>I see no need to join you in your career, Mr. Giwer. And I still await
>how learning things” is equal to becoming an expert. I learned about Bob
>Dole today, but that doesn’t make me an expert in Bob Dole, you
>insignificant old fart.

You must still be a teenager.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:55 PDT 1996
Article: 38254 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,van.general,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Jews for Faggots in Alberta
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:23:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:22:09 PM PDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38254 alt.discrimination:47252 ab.general:9505 can.general:78055 van.general:8618 alt.politics.homosexuality:92954

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Sat, 18 May 1996 03:17:35 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Alexander Baron wrote:

>!>I just spoke to Rabbi Goldstein tonight and he affirmed yet again the
>!>Halakhic position that homosexuality is an abomination.

>!You need to remember that so many politically correct “jews” wish
>!to have it forgotten that “Jews were the only people persecuted
>!for what they were rather than for what they did.”

>Giwer you homophobic bigot, does this mean that every homosexual the
>Nazis put in camps or murdered was caught in the physical act of
>homosexuality?

If you have a problem with that statement take it up with Elie
Wiesel. He spoke it before it was politically incorrect to do
so.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:56 PDT 1996
Article: 38257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAEL Nazis based their murders on “evolution”!
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:21:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 9:23:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Told you these guys were creationists.

[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>Chris Krolczyk ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Yehuda SIlver ([email protected]) wrote:
>: : John Surcombe ([email protected]) wrote:

>: : It was started in reply to some evolutionist
>: : who said “he THINKS that the Freemen of Montana” were against teaching
>: : evolution, and that he THINKS that other militia groups also
>: : oppose it”. AND then went on to calim that sme teen-age brats
>: : who call themselves “neo-nazis” are similar!

>: How odd. References to “teenage neo-Nazis” seem to be lacking in the
>: post (minus attributions) you quoted near the beginning of this thread.
>: Matter of fact, I seem to recall that if anyone brought that subject
>: up in the thread, it was you.

>AGAIN an ape-WANNABE “evolution religionist”
>denying THE FACTS!

>: And once again, you were the dipstick who brought up what the Nazis
>: allegedly believed in this thread. Yehuda lies again! Film at 11!

>AGAIN a “monkey wannabe cultist, a.ka, evolutionist
>demonizing the heretics to his religion!

>a) the thread started as I stated, by an “evolution-religioonist”
>trying to claim the freeman of montana “he thinks” as all “miltias”
>he thinks” as all skinheads “neo nazis” he thinks (really EMOTES(

>…..

>but evolution-religious fanatics, will ignore all SIMPLE VERIFIABLE FACTS

>when they contradict the “ape Wannabe ‘catcheism”!

>: You misspelled “asserted”. Hope this helps…

>No, spelling mistakes will NOT change the FACTS, which are
>unrelated to my or your spelling!

>Just another “monkey wannabe” mistake~!

>: Any resemblance between your spew and a “fact” is bizarrely
>: coincidental, I can assure you.

>the “assurance” of an ignoruamus, is worthless!
>(even if it wasn’t based on some fanatical monkey wannabe “religous
>beliefs”!

>Your ignoring the FACTS on how this thread began (an evolutionist
>”thinking that the freeman of montana….”

>and your impuning those who are FACTUal ABOUT “HOW THIS THREAD BEGAN”

>IS minor

>COMPARED to your “belief” on how YOU began!

>Sorry, you are NOT a monkey, or a “monkey’s cousin”
>despite your desire to behave like one!
>: —
>: Chris Krolczyk [email protected]

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:56 PDT 1996
Article: 38258 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAEL Nazis based their murders on “evolution”!
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:19:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 9:21:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

If anyone doubted it, these folks drop nazi into everything.

[email protected] (Chris Krolczyk) wrote:

>Yehuda SIlver ([email protected]) wrote:
>: John Surcombe ([email protected]) wrote:

>: : You are merely another case of someone who can’t accept scientific theories
>: : because they have unpleasant consequences then – not because you have any
>: : real reason based on observation that they are incorrect? Maybe I’m wrong,
>: : but I’d like to see you prove it.

>: You picked up this thread LATE!

>Judging by your use of OVERLY EMPHATIC CAPITALIZATION, you seem to think
>that it was impossible for Mr. Surcombe to’ve read the remainder of the
>thread either with a newreader or through DejaNews. You’re sadly mistaken,
>of course.

>: It was started in reply to some evolutionist
>: who said “he THINKS that the Freemen of Montana” were against teaching
>: evolution, and that he THINKS that other militia groups also
>: oppose it”. AND then went on to calim that sme teen-age brats
>: who call themselves “neo-nazis” are similar!

>How odd. References to “teenage neo-Nazis” seem to be lacking in the
>post (minus attributions) you quoted near the beginning of this thread.
>Matter of fact, I seem to recall that if anyone brought that subject
>up in the thread, it was you.

>: My reply was that while WHO belives something is NOT a convincing argument
>: IF he want to bring up teen age skinhead punks
>: one must look at What the REAL NAZIS belived!

>And once again, you were the dipstick who brought up what the Nazis
>allegedly believed in this thread. Yehuda lies again! Film at 11!

>: ..I also pointed out that evoultion has become a “religion” not
> ^^^^^^^
>: a “science” and that it’s adherants usually BELIEVE in it

>You misspelled “asserted”. Hope this helps…

>: as part of their “”religious like” Belief system
>: and make assumptions rather than Facts!

>Any resemblance between your spew and a “fact” is bizarrely
>coincidental, I can assure you.

>–
>Chris Krolczyk [email protected]

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:57 PDT 1996
Article: 38259 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAEL Nazis based their murders on “evolution”!
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:30:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 7:29:27 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

You have to read this one, folks. The real nazis are
evolutionists. Read this fruitcake’s post. Really off the deep
end kind of stuff.

[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>Chris Krolczyk ([email protected]) wrote:
>: John Surcombe ([email protected]) wrote:
>: : Chris Krolczyk wrote:

>: : >>b) Hiesenberg (of the unceratinty principle) was in charge of the
>: : >>Nazi A-bomb project!
>: : >
>: : >Heisenberg was openly pro-Nazi for a time. Not all scientists in
>: : >Germany were, however. Irrelevant.

>: : Even if the above is true, it doesn’t exactly surprise me that a notable
>: : German physicist was employed to take charge of the Nazi A-bomb project.

>: True, but what I was addressing was Silver’s implicit argument (if you

>Another piece of date confirming my hypothesis that
>evolution-religionists do not care about FACTS
>and instead confuse their own personal relgious BELIEFS
>(such as thier assumptions, own personal views of OTHER’s
>”implicit’ (actually not true) with FACT!.

>: can call it that) that _all_ scientists (particularly the “Evolution-
>: ists” he keeps ranting about) were Nazis by association.

>If you had botherered READING the thread, you would have seen
>that it was NOT an attack on all Scientists,
>and just referred to the GERMAN intlellectuals
>scientists or otherwise , (like philosopher Heidigger)

>..My ORIGINAL point, long lost, was a reply to hose who associted
>”creationism” with the “freeman” an “fascism”!

>pointing out who the REAL NAZIS were, i.e. evolutionists!, and I clearly
>stated that this was NOT relavent to all scientists, nor to the “general
>argument”
>just a repy to those who were arguing against creation from the “freeman”!

>
>and a However, some evolution-religionists practicing their usuual
>emotional – psychological DENIAL
>tried to deny that even the NAZI DOCTORS, and universitys
>were “really scientists”
>and claimed they were just “political hacks”
>rather than the GREATEST DOCTORS, medical schools, and
>university biology departments of their time such
>as U of Berlin, Marburg, Heidelburg etc!

>So i mentioned some STILL UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED SCIENTISTS
>who were part of it
>including the Auschwiz “experiments” supervised by the great
>German university’s the greatest of their time
>and Heisenberg one of the greats!

>(most of the other’s were Jewish, long expelled. fleeing
>or murdered in Germany)!

>I have respect for real scientists, like real physicists and biologists
>not evolutionists the “dummies of biology”!

> My apologies

>: if this isn’t as clear as I’d like it, but the Drooler’s replies have
>: spun _completely_ out of control. Thus the confusion, I suppose.

>: —
>: Chris Krolczyk [email protected]

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:58 PDT 1996
Article: 38260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:05:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:05:45 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>You call me senile? I about twenty-two years older than you are,
>turkey, I’ve had a brain transplant from a young Nazi, blonde,
>handsome, full of the old mick, sharp as a tack, so my old brain was
>pickled with too much alcohol, you know what that’s like, right! This
>new brain, young, healthy, well educated, but reformed by it’s very
>expensive education (tax-free by the way), sees things a little
>different than the old brain, (which has been donated to alt. rev). To
>be used any way they see fit. Sign up, maybe you’ll be lucky and get
>it. As old and beat-up as it is, it still works better than Giwers.
>And he’s still a young, retired rich cat, with his own Internet and
>like that.

You are very sick. What state do you live in so that concerned
people can have the welfare people call upon you?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:58 PDT 1996
Article: 38262 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:12:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]w-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:13:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>>>If you mix Birkenau with Treblinka or Sobibor, I can understand that
>>>>>you’re puzzled. Between these two camps, the testimonies aren’t the
>>>>>same. And your posts are different of those of another deniers. But it
>>>>>doesn’t prove that deniers doesn’t exist.

>>>>”deniers don’t exist”? When pointing out problems with gassing
>>>>stories is considered the same as there were no camps and then as
>>>>positive proof of being a “denier” and therefore a positive proof
>>>>of the denial of the existance of camps it is quite clear where
>>>>the circular logic begins and ends.

>>>The deniers still exist.

>> So fucking what? Is it a crime? A sin? Immoral? Fattening?

>The Giwer-troll, in all his vulgarity, reveals his true denier colors. He
>asks if it is a crime. No, it is not, since the freedoms he abuses protect
>him. Is it a sin? No, as repugnant as it is. Is it immoral? Yes, it is,
>for reasons the Giwer-troll could never comprehend. Is it fattening? This
>is obviously a Giwer-troll “in media hootch” question.

>What it is, of course, is intellectually dishonest and spiritually bankrupt.
>Racially motivated. An attempt by the losers in life to try to elevate
>themselves to the level of the decent people, or more accurately, an attempt
>by the losers to bring the decent people down to their level. It won’t work
>of course, but the desperate alienation and loneliness that drives these
>types will impel them on. The Giwer-troll will continue to try to demean
>and degrade decent people and to sacrilege the dead. But it won’t work.
>The decent people have seen through him. And all he has left for “comfort”
>is the losers like himself. Poor, pathetic old Giwer-troll.

Still leaving your hot button hanging out, jerkoff.

And you are engaging in this solely because you think people will
like you for doing so. When you have grown up you will learn how
fleeting is gratitude.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:49:59 PDT 1996
Article: 38267 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 03:45:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:47:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 17 May 1996 23:52:58 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>!>You’re assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>!>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher’bot, not a
>!>web page at all!

>!Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
>!mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.

>Let me get this right.
>FACT — ComBase Communications (as did Giwer) emailed VOLANT to have my
>website taken down with threats of a lawsuit because I inferred Matt
>Giwer was *associated* with them.

I am not going to tell you what idiot thing you did to get that
response. You may, however, continue to guess. No hints. If
you had asked real nice, volant might have told you.

>Now you say that the two people maintaining the ComBase ISP are your son
>and a friend of yours?

That was the first thing I said about it in response to how I
found out so quickly about your phone call trying to get my
account cancelled. In fact you read it months ago and back then
you even mentioned it in one or your messages. So why are you
playing the ignorant shit now?

BTW: Want to deny you made that demand on the phone one more
time?

>And what is this now, Grynspan has contacts with ComBase too?
>Figures…

I think my son and Alec once exchanged a couple words on the
phone once but so far as I am aware that is the extent of it.
Would you have a problem if he did?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:00 PDT 1996
Article: 38283 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 04:01:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 11:00:11 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> > Since the exact opposite is true — we were 100% successful in tracing
>> >those who we were able to trace — your statement is utter nonsense. The
>> >language is English, asshole, try reading it sometime instead of inventing your
>> >own language. For the record Matty if we “lost track” of them we could have
>> >successfully traced them. Since we were 100% successful in tracing those
>who
>> >we succeeded in tracing, none that were traced can be counted as “having
>lost
>> >track of.”

>> Only you could claim that losing track of people is successfully
>> tracing them. Well, not only you. Dozens of other holohuggers
>> make the same claim.

> Since I have never made that claim, you are a liar.

>
>> And of course you claim there was no one you could not trace even
>> from the other side of the Atlantic.

> 1. That claim was never made. The claim was that we were 100%
>successful in tracing those who we traced. No claim was ever made (except in
>your imagination) about those we could not trace. 2. No claim was ever made that
>it was done from “the other side of the Atlantic.”

> The problem, Giwer, seems to be that you will tell any lie — no matter how
>silly — just to write something. Why don’t you just admit that you have no
>knowledge of what you are talking about and call it a day. You just look stupider
>with every post.

Nice try, killfile challenged one, but no cigar. Dance around it
all you want. We have more than adequate information for a first
cut estimate of relatives lost without playing around with these
anecdotal tales that are always more than a hundred.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:01 PDT 1996
Article: 38284 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: nutcase found
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 04:11:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 11:09:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Does this guy belong to anyone here?

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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:32:56 +0000
From: Chuck Ferree
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms’
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

You call me senile? I about twenty-two years older than you are,
turkey, I’ve had a brain transplant from a young Nazi, blonde,
handsome, full of the old mick, sharp as a tack, so my old brain
was
pickled with too much alcohol, you know what that’s like, right!
This
new brain, young, healthy, well educated, but reformed by it’s
very
expensive education (tax-free by the way), sees things a little
different than the old brain, (which has been donated to alt.
rev). To
be used any way they see fit. Sign up, maybe you’ll be lucky and
get
it. As old and beat-up as it is, it still works better than
Giwers.
And he’s still a young, retired rich cat, with his own Internet
and
like that.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:01 PDT 1996
Article: 38286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:38:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:30:12 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>> > You are incorrect. For one thing the largest Jewish settlements were in
>> >Egypt.
>>
>> The subject was Europe, killfile challenged one.

> And Turkey is part of Europe? Look at a before you make an idiot of
>yourself.

Get some perspective, Turkey. For the time we are talking about
there were no named continents. Look at some contemporary maps.
It was the Eastern Empire.

>> As predicted, no evidence, mere refutation. Sounds like a Monty
>> Python routine.

> You were given a reference. Read and come back when you have
>some knowledge.

As need you.

>> >> About that time there were only a few pockets of non-Christian
>> >> religions left in Europe mainly the Norse and some of the
>> >> Russias.
>>
>> > How about the Iberian penisula including much of what is now southern
>> >France?
>>
>> As noted, it was following the Muslims, and said penisula is more
>> correctly called Spain.

> The Portuguese would, no doubt, be fascinated by that statement as
>would be the Basques. Look at a map. Odd as well that the Jewish communities
>are reported there well before the birth of Mohammed. What did they do? Go there
>centuries earlier and wait for Islam to be created? Moreover, when were the
>Muslims in what is now France, Italy, and Germany?

The Basques ain’t shit even today. Spain and Portugal separated
into independent kingdoms around the same time and motivated by
the Muslim (Moor) invasion. The mountains, being defensible,
kept them out of what became Portugal. Spain became what was
left after the Muslims were kicked out.

The settlements you refer to date from the Roman Empire days and
were part of some strange policy I have yet to figure out why it
existed.

The later migrations into France and Germany were from the east
centuries after the Muslims were kicked out.

You really do need to learn what you are talking about.

>> >Others will post recognized historians who emphatically
>> >disagree with you; you will make abusive ipse dixit statements based entirely on
>> >you own appalling ignorance. Can you name a single historian who agrees with
>> >you?

> Which, readers will note is exactly what you did. Can I now be credited
>with predictive powers?

Of course you can. You predicted your own response from your own
ignorance.

>> > Suggested reading: “The Jews in the Roman World” Michael Grant.
>> >read it; you might learn something.

>> I suggest you read it yourself before you imply I am in error
>> without stating what you consider to be the truth. Until then,

> Because you have admitted that you are incapable of engaging in a
>discussion. First your use of English is poor. I did not imply you were in error. I
>stated it directly. Second you are dishonest. Although provided with a
>well-recognized scholar of the period who flatly contradicts you, you claim that no
>referwnce was provided. Third you are ignorant of history. You have mistaked
>when the Muslim conquest affected Europe. Third you do not even have the
>vaguest notion of the geography of Europe (see Portugal). Fourth you do not have
>any conception of the political state of Europe in the ninth century (your statement
>that the Norse ruled only in Scandavia). You are apparently unaware of what a
>map of Europe looks like either now or in the ninth century.

> Face it Giwer, you do not have the basic knowledge to post about
>history. You are clearly out of your league. Go read a book and come back when
>you have the basic knowledge to discuss the topic.

I would hope you would do the same.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:02 PDT 1996
Article: 38287 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:21:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:20:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> ># If you would ever take the time to read even what is on Nizkor
>> ># you would discover that he was first tried in Poland by the
>> ># Russians and hung about one month later.
>>
>> >Wasn’t Hoess tried by the Poles? Can anyone check this?
>>
>> He was turned over to be tried in Poland at the demand of General
>> Rudenko. Now if there is going to be a great issue raised over
>> the governmental jurisdiction of the court rather than deal with
>> the issue we might as well drop this right now.

>REALITY CHECK: It was Giwer, of course, who first raised these specious
>assertions in the first place! Yet, when he is corrected on on the venue
>and other details of Ho”ss imprisonment and trial he glibly says “we might
>as well drop this right now.” How Giwer!

The issue remains that he had two trials. He was acquitted of
the charges of the first trial and convicted on the second. I am
not interested in another of these obfuscatory “prove it”
routines while you folks hope the point is forgotten.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:03 PDT 1996
Article: 38288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:26:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:25:25 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Reply-To:
> [email protected]
>Newsgroups:
> alt.revisionism
> References:
> 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>>>If you mix Birkenau with Treblinka or Sobibor, I can understand that
>>>>>you’re puzzled. Between these two camps, the testimonies aren’t the
>>>>>same. And your posts are different of those of another deniers. But it
>>>>>doesn’t prove that deniers doesn’t exist.

>>>>”deniers don’t exist”? When pointing out problems with gassing
>>>>stories is considered the same as there were no camps and then as
>>>>positive proof of being a “denier” and therefore a positive proof
>>>>of the denial of the existance of camps it is quite clear where
>>>>the circular logic begins and ends.

>>>The deniers still exist.

>> So fucking what? Is it a crime? A sin? Immoral? Fattening?

>The Giwer-troll, in all his vulgarity, reveals his true denier colors.
>He
>asks if it is a crime. No, it is not, since the freedoms he abuses
>protect
>him. Is it a sin? No, as repugnant as it is. Is it immoral? Yes,
>it is,
>for reasons the Giwer-troll could never comprehend. Is it fattening?
>This
>is obviously a Giwer-troll “in media hootch” question.

>What it is, of course, is intellectually dishonest and spiritually
>bankrupt.
>Racially motivated. An attempt by the losers in life to try to
>elevate
>themselves to the level of the decent people, or more accurately, an
>attempt
>by the losers to bring the decent people down to their level. It
>won’t work
>of course, but the desperate alienation and loneliness that drives
>these
>types will impel them on. The Giwer-troll will continue to try to
>demean
>and degrade decent people and to sacrilege the dead. But it won’t
>work.
>The decent people have seen through him. And all he has left for
>”comfort”
>is the losers like himself. Poor, pathetic old Giwer-troll.

Get back to your rocking chair, Chuckles. We all agree you
singlehandedly ended WW II. Happy now?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:04 PDT 1996
Article: 38289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer loses Sanity (Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work c
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:40:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:32:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> ># Do you know this Brack? Can you prove he ever existed?
>>
>> >This is a new record, even for Giwer. This man has lost
>> >the little sanity he may have had.
>>
>> Excuse me, good sir, but I must invoke the Gentile Rule which
>> requires you to prove everything about this person before his
>> “testimony” can be introduced into evidence.

>GIWER TANTRUM ALERT: Giwer, acting out his fantasy of being a petulant two
>year-old, cannot realize the distinction of the existance and deeds of a
>person, such as SS-Oberfuehrer Brack, and one of his own imagination: Al
>Gentile. Therefore, because others do not except Giwer’s claims regarding
>”Al Gentile” without verifiable evidence, Giwer has gotten a twist in his
>knickers and must huff and puff in indignation about the existance of bona
>fide persons, such as SS-Oberfuehrer Brack, in retaliation.

>Such is the mind of a two year-old. Or a senile misanthrope.

>> >He’s now apparently claiming that Victor Brack never existed?
>>
>> >Last, Brack was seen in Germany, at the end of a rope. I don’t
>> >know if the rope is still around for forensic examination.
>>
>> >Seek help, Giwer. You’re going down the tubes.
>>
>> Seek help yourself, holohugger. The Gentile Rule is in effect
>> until otherwise noted. You are required to prove everything
>> about your witness including that he ever existed before he will
>> be considered.

>GIWER TANTRUM ALERT: Giwer, acting out his fantasy of being a petulant two
>year-old, fails to consider that his pronouncements of what is and is not
>excepted as proof is taken about as seriously as those of a petulent two
>year-old.

>As to the reality of Victor Brack:

>”BRACK, VICTOR (1904-1948), senior SS officer (Oberfu”hrer) and one of the
>chief functionaries in the EUTHANASIA PROGRAM and the mass gassing of Jews
>in the EXTERMINATION CAMPS during World War II. The son of a physician,
>Brack studied economics in Munich. He was freindly with Heinrich HIMMLER
>and was his chauffeur before becoming liason between the SS and the
>Fu”hrer’s Chancellery (Kanzlei des Fu”hrers) in 1936. He rose to become
>deputy to Phillip Bouhler, head of theh chancellery, and Brack’s office in
>the chancellery, known as T4, was responsible for the killing of more than
>fifty thousand Germans and Jews under the Euthanasia Program from 1930 to
>1941. Brack himself personally interviewed the medical personnel employed
>in the program.

>”In the summer of 1942, when the ‘FINAL SOULUTION’ was inaugerated, Brack
>made his experiance available in the efforts to sterilize Jews in X-ray
>clinics and to exterminate them in gas chambers of the camps in occupied
>Poland. As one of the accused in The Medical Case, tried at the SUBSEQUENT
>NUREMBURG PROCEEDINGS, Brack was sentenced to death by an American
>military tribunal in 1947 and executed in 1948.

>Source: _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.238.

Do you know him? Have you personally verified he existed? If
not, the Gentile Rule applies.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 04:16:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 11:14:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>Alexander Baron wrote:

>>>>>>In article <[email protected]>
>>>>>> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
>>>>>>> It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>>>>>>> themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>>>>>>> heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>>>>>>Mr Giwer, stop telling these vicious truths. The Protocols is more of a
>>>>>>mystical document than an anti-Semitic one, but boy, don’t they scream.
>> That should have been obvious when you seriously believe anyone
>>would ever take the nonsense seriously.

>No one takes your nonsense seriously. You are absolutely right about
>that.

>That why I snipped all your BS. This way troll-work doesn’t have to be
>read over ad nauseum.

>Everyone will thank me. 🙂

Want to bet? You can’t buy your way into the tribe. You are
just one of the useful dupes in the amen corner.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38300 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer loses Sanity (Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work c
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:43:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:35:39 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>># Do you know this Brack? Can you prove he ever existed?

>>>This is a new record, even for Giwer. This man has lost
>>>the little sanity he may have had.

>> Excuse me, good sir, but I must invoke the Gentile Rule which
>>requires you to prove everything about this person before his
>>”testimony” can be introduced into evidence.

>I’m not clear on the rule. Nor do I really care. You aren’t worth
>Danny’s time and he hasn’t yet figured that out. But, Mr. Giwer, the
>work of proving Mr. Brack has been done by past historians and by the
>respective courts. We do not have to reinvent the wheel in Brack’s
>case. If you want to somehow prove he doesn’t exist the ball is in
>your court.

>He’s a dunce Danny. He’s as smart as a rock. Only this rock hasn’t any
>potential force. It’ll never change position. It can’t.

You claim it was all done. Prove it. None of this crap about
“historians would not publish it if not researched.” You prove
it. That is the Gentile Rule. Got it yet?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:06 PDT 1996
Article: 38301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: My Complaint About Matt Giwer
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:45:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 10:38:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38301 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:6

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Not having the time to write my own rant, I had the computer write one
>for me:

> http://www-csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint/

So frigging stupid you can’t even write your own messages.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 38305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:10:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:10:38 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) said:

>>>>I am going to come out on Matt’s side THIS TIME, because the
>>>>conventionalists are acting like True Believers with the constant
>>>>repetition of the Nizkorite Creed as revealed by the Prophet McVay.
>>>>Reminds me of a bunch of kids trying to break a kid who is different by
>>>>repeating the same silly rhyme. Maybe they think that Matt will start
>>to
>>>>cry and go home.
>>>
>>>Moving quickly over to the other side, Mr. Ehrlich? You are so
>>*reasonable*
>>>and all.

>>No, I am just getting irritated at the way conventionalists are ending all
>>of their posts to Matt with the same mantra, which, as I understand,
>>derives from a statement from McVay.

>You have entered this game too late, Mr. Ehrlich, as several people have
>already told you. Mr. Giwer has insulted every member of this newsgroup,
>has libeled people, engaged in the worst obscenity imaginable, lied,
>distorted, twisted and trolled, and those are his good points. He has done
>this for several months, baiting people into arguments, simply to argue,
>rejecting expert testimony, claimed he knows more about chemistry than Ph.D
>candidates in chemistry, physics than people trained in the field, ditto for
>photography, law, geography, mathematics, languages, translation, and the
>list is endless.

>He is a miserable old troll looking for trouble, because that’s the only way
>he can give his miserable existance meaning. Pitiful and pathetic.
>Probably insane.

You mean I hit some nerves. Thank you. I knew I did but a
diatribe like this is quite an amazing admission.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 38306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revise those damn museums
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:52:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 12:53:17 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

>One to the right of me, one to the left of me, cha cha cha.
>And now the biggie of them all.

>_Holocaust Memorial Construction to Begin in 1999_

>The cornerstone for Germany’s planned national Holocaust memorial will
>be
>laid on January 27, 1999, backers of the memorial and officials from
>Bonn
>and Berlin announced April 24. January 27 was chosen, they explained,
>because it was recently designated the national day of commemoration for
>victims of Nazi persecution (cf. TWIG 1/26/96, p.1). What the memorial
>to
>Jews murdered by the Nazis will look like is, however, still open to
>question. Artist Christine Jakob-Marcks won the design competition for
>the
>memorial with her proposal to build a huge tombstone-like structure
>inscribed with the names of the Jews who died in the Holocaust, but many
>supporters of the project, including Chancellor Kohl and his cabinet,
>voiced
>reservations about her design (cf. TWIG 7/7/95, p.6; 7/21/95, p.7).
> A
>new choice is now to be made from the seven best submissions to the
>original
>competition.

But only the names of Jews. What was that I was saying about the
other six million only being a footnote?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:08 PDT 1996
Article: 38308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:07:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:08:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >>
>> >> ># You should think of it that way. I really can see you at 65 on
>> >> ># Social Security wondering what happened to you.
>> >>
>> >> >Well, give me a call if you’re still around when I’m 65. Ok? And
>> >> >try to do some reading before. So you won’t tell us that Belsen
>> >> >camp was in Poland, you 163-IQ-Holocaust-expert you.
>> >>
>> >> Despite the attempt, Anne Frank was recovering from typhus when
>> >> evacuated.
>>
>> >And your source for this, Giwer? Oh, you don’t have one? Just blowing
>> >smoke out your butt again? Typical.
>>
>> I told you where to find the information. Take a look. You
>> fools always try the unilateral imposition of the Gentile Rule.
>>
>> Take time out from your mantra and look it up.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer, being the dullard his is, fails to realize that I
>DID look up when and where Anne Frank died. Perhaps Giwer should also
>check _The Diary of Anne Frank: the critical edition_ before he blows more
>smoke out his butt?

>No mention was made of her contracting typhus at Auscwhitz. In fact, both
>Anne and Margo Frank mananged to survive from the end of October (when
>they arrived at Bergen-Belsen) to March, when they probably died. That’s a
>time span of about four months. Given that typhus symptoms (i.e high
>fever, muscular pain, chills) appear within two weeks of infection, and
>that the disease runs it course in two to three weeks, it seems rather
>unlikely that Anne Frank contracted it in Auschwitz but rather in
>Bergen-Belsen, which had a typhus epidemic towards the end of the 1945
>winter.

>Now, if Giwer has different information, perhpas he can cite the source?
>Or would that be breaking the Giwer Rule? (i.e. Ready! Fire! Aim!
>…Oops!)

Right. And of course that is the true truth because you have
invented it.

>And lest we forget:

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Why do you not taunt me a second time?

You are very the Monty Python routine.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:09 PDT 1996
Article: 38309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:04:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:05:00 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>: equations [sic] after this statement.

>Does this mean that you plan to give a source for you claim that HCN is
>a byproduct of coke combustion, or retract that claim in light of the
>evidence to the contrary posted here?

That was NEVER my claim. I simply said that more HCN would
PROBABLY be produced by the Kremas than was ever used in any
extermination program. I added later that it was a normal
pollutant produced by the combustion process.

Now of course you can pretend that things said near the end of a
discussion stand alone but that will only indicate you are newbie
to public discussions.

So you see, I can not retract your straw man as I never said your
straw man.

However, your fellow chemist mislead people by playing games with
the formal definition of burning into believing it was not a
normal by product.

You really should take the time to get to know the people you are
siding with before you side with them.

>And when are we going to see that translation of the Hitler quote?

What in the world are you talking about?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:09 PDT 1996
Article: 38311 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:36:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 12:35:32 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected]m (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Despite the attempt, Anne Frank was recovering from typhus
># when evacuated.

>I didn’t say it’s not true. I asked for a source. Everyone has
>to provide some source for his/her claims. Even people who
>have an IQ of 163, are retired at 50, and have many years
>of experience in the real world.

>I’m asking again: what is your source?

Let us not play this game again. The source was given. It was
also posted in this NG over a month before I brought it up.

Now simply do your homework. I am no longer going to play the
Gentile Rule game.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:10 PDT 1996
Article: 38316 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!n3ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 06:14:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:15:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>> >
>> > Fascinating.

>FASINATING!!! 🙂

>Giwer finds out for the first time, after reading all those heavy duty
>books by Holocaust Scholors, that women of all people, served their
>country as SS Guards in Nazi concentration camps. Suddenly for the
>first time (May 20th, 1996) he finds out that the SS had women in
>their ranks! (Un-fucking-believable!) Bet he is also unaware that most
>of the women SS were former prostitutes.

>Funny, I felt a little pity for these fat, ugly women SS guards who
>were forced to carry corpses into the pits at Belsen. The British
>tried several and hanged them, right there in plain sight. It wasn’t a
>pretty sight, but by then. I felt zilch pity. Same with the ones from
>Buchenwald…the tattoo lady, with the lamp shades made from human
>skin. She committed suicide by hanging herself, sorta like Hess, the
>weirdo who flew an FW-110 to Scotland, thinking he could con Churchill
>into surrendering before it was too late.
>Dream on my boy, it’ll all become clear to you as they give you the
>last Sacraments.
>CHUCKLES

Go to sleep. Your end is near.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:11 PDT 1996
Article: 38320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 22:23:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4n[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-32.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 3:23:43 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> ># You should think of it that way. I really can see you at 65 on
>> ># Social Security wondering what happened to you.
>>
>> >Well, give me a call if you’re still around when I’m 65. Ok? And
>> >try to do some reading before. So you won’t tell us that Belsen
>> >camp was in Poland, you 163-IQ-Holocaust-expert you.
>>
>> Despite the attempt, Anne Frank was recovering from typhus when
>> evacuated.

>And your source for this, Giwer? Oh, you don’t have one? Just blowing
>smoke out your butt again? Typical.

I told you where to find the information. Take a look. You
fools always try the unilateral imposition of the Gentile Rule.

Take time out from your mantra and look it up.

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Mark

>posted/e-mailed

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:11 PDT 1996
Article: 38321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 22:21:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-32.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 3:21:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>I wrote:

>>>If Mr. Giwer means my solution to the turbulent diffusion problem, I
>>>have indeed posted it many times.

>Mr. Giwer responds:

>> Unfortunately, you have not, nor have you explained why cooler
>>air would be near the ceiling.

>Mr. Giwer errs in his assertion that I have not posted my solution to
>the turbulent diffusuion problem. Mr. Giwer errs in his assertion that
>I have said that cooler air would be near the ceiling (however, assuming
>an adiabatic lapse rate, it would be). If Mr. Ceacaa is asserting the
>existence of an inversion layer, we can discuss it. I doubt whether Mr.
>Giwer understands what an inversion layer is.

>Mr. Giwer chants:

>> MANTRA! MANTRA!

>in response to my claim:

>>>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>>>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>>>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>>>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>>>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>>>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>>>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>>>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>>>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>>
>>>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Mr. Giwer enagaes in rational discourse:

>> Asshole.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

Yes, asshole.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:12 PDT 1996
Article: 38331 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:34:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 20 8:34:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>Alexander Baron wrote:

>>>>In article <[email protected]>
>>>> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
>>>>> It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
>>>>> themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
>>>>> heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.

>>>>Mr Giwer, stop telling these vicious truths. The Protocols is more of a
>>>>mystical document than an anti-Semitic one, but boy, don’t they scream.

>>>Mr. Baron is such an easy person to refute. first it was his stupid
>>>aryan “race” claims. Now it’s the
>>>_Protocols of the Elders of Zion_. I can use quite a mix of historians
>>>to refute this stupidity and the more the merrier.

>>>First Paul Johnson who is the authoe of _The Birth of the Modern_,
>>>_Modern Times_, _A History of the English People_,
>>>and the book we will quote from, _History of the Jews_.

>> If there was ever a need for evidence in favor of his position it
>>is the long, arcane quote of events even less known than the
>>Protocols themselves. You are talking about things a century or
>>more out of date that do not appear to have been more than a
>>passing interest at the time, having had no obvious influence
>>upon the course of history.

>I must note also that this is such a masterful refutation of the
>history of the forgery that we are all beside ourselves with shame.
>:-) What a hoot you are Giwer. Is the above as far as you got in the
>article?

Just who would give a rat’s ass about it being true or not? And
if they did care, why would they care?

Worrying about it all is really too silly for words.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:13 PDT 1996
Article: 38369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:30:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:33:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:

>>
>>>Giwer, does it ever accure to you to wonder why some innocent little
>>>girl like Anne Frank had to die like that?
>>>Chuckles
>>
>> Did it ever occur to you that you are senile?
>>
>>-

>Matt, this is a grotesque insult. Chuck asked you an honest question
>about a girl who got screwed over just because she was Jewish. Your
>rejoinder is just to ask him if he has lost his mind. This does not help
>your credibility.

What makes you think I care about your opinion?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:13 PDT 1996
Article: 38371 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:36:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4nqfc[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:37:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Let us not play this game again. The source was given.
># It was also posted in this NG over a month before I
># brought it up.

>Maybe; I never saw it. Since you’ve lied so much in the
>past, I see no reason to believe you this time.

>You have yet failed to give a source for your claim that
>Anne Frank was ill with typhus while in Auschwitz.

>Show us the source, or admit that you lied.

Watch my keystrokes.

I don’t play that game.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:14 PDT 1996
Article: 38374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.nl.innet.net!bofh.dot!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:19:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 11:18:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38374 soc.culture.jewish:52425 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20572 soc.culture.israel:34441

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> What is your point in all of this? That if you own your own land
>>>>>>you can declare your own nation?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>No, but I think even you can’t dispute that until the great
>>>expulsion,
>>>>>there was a Jewish nation in that part of the world.
>>>>
>>>> And, as they used to say, what does that have to do with the
>>>>price of tea in China?
>>>>
>>>> A generically independent political entity might have existed for
>>>>about 800 years ending in 600 BCE. The Iriquois Nations existed
>>>>in North America for over 600 years. Are claiming that someone
>>>>like Mussolini has the right to re-establish the Roman Empire
>>>>which was around for 1000 years?
>>
>>>As a matter of fact the Iroquois still do consider themselves a
>nation
>>>as well as many of the other tribes. Ask anyone who lives in
>Salamanca,
>>>N.Y. if the Senecas are still a nation.
>>
>> Ask them if they have tried to take the land back recently.
>>
>>>Your inference regarding the Roman Empire is ridiculous because
>anyone
>>>who has read any history knows what happened there.
>>
>> As does anyone reading the history of the middle east knows the
>>rather minor contribution the Israelites had to the region. If
>>it were not for the religious history of the region they would be
>>hardly more than an arcane footnote to history.

>So religion and ethics and philosophy are minor contributions Your
>notes prove that. Others would dispute that

Why would I claim that? On the other hand what would you claim
the Hebrew contribution to religion, ethics, or philosophy has
been? Or have you been buying into self-congratulatory fantasies
again?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:14 PDT 1996
Article: 38375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:22:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 11:22:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Sorry, oh technically incompetent one, but your white stuff is
># still vaporized oil. That you can not comprehend the problem
># with that regarding flammability and explosiveness is your
># problem not mine.

>Prove that such a danger existed. Start by posting the minimal
>concentration that would result in an explosion, and proving that
>this would be reached with an engine running on low fuel-air
>ratio. Prove that a spark could reach the gas chambers.

For your first lesson, learn that science does not prove
anything. That it does is a creationist claim.

Beyond that, you have already demonstrated yourself incapable of
following such a discussion.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:15 PDT 1996
Article: 38377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:27:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 11:26:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Give it up. You have no technical background much less any
># experience with patents.

>Ok. Let’s go over it again.

>The naziboys claim that it took a very long time for the
>HCN to evaporate from the Zyklon. The Zyklon patent and
>the book by Dr. Peters, the leading scientist of the firm
>that used to manufacture it, give a much shorter time.

>Then, the naziboys say that the inventors lied in their
>patent. But they also say that if most of the HCN would be
>released quickly, this would be very dangerous. But, then,
>why would the inventors intentionally give an erroneous
>figure that would make their product appear “dangerous”!?

>No reply from the naziboys on this.

Your petty name calling is noted. Yet you folks will post the
long time required to get insects when that suits your argument.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38378 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:01:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:01:13 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># You mean the bigshots got their women on the payroll?

>Many of the SS-women in the camp were low-life criminals.
>I never heard about the wives of the big shots working as
>SS guards.

You do realize you are destroying the entire image of the SS as a
fanatical organization dedicated to Der Feuhrer. You are now
creating an image where anything that happened was simply due to
undisciplined street thugs.

># Did they look anything like Janet Reno?

>Grow up. Or are you starting with the Waco nonsense again?

Is that the only connection you see for her?

># I just jumped to the conclusion that you were claiming they
># were gassed.

>I made no such claim about the Belsen victims.

>What do you think they died from?

I have no idea. There is no indication in the picture. What do
you think they died from?

>## “Good to hear”? When your wife died (of natural causes
>## I assume?), was that “good to hear”?

># Actually, yes.

>Why?

My business.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My Complaint About Matt Giwer
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:23:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:23:25 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Rich Graves)
>writes:

>>unprofessional boeotians. Today, it’s prudish adolescents who reward
>>mediocrity. It may seem to many people, maybe even the majority, that
>>he has become increasingly ostentatious ever since childhood. He uses
>>his influence to give me reason to have a nervous breakdown. I would
>>like to close by saying that I don’t think it would be unfair to say
>>that I by no means claim to know everything about unsophisticated
>>conservatives.
>>
>>

>Uh huh. Anf you accuse ME of sophomoric bullshit? Well written, anyway.

It was a computer. He is incapable of it on his own.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:17 PDT 1996
Article: 38391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:19:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 11:19:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38391 soc.culture.jewish:52461 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20578 soc.culture.israel:34456

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected] (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Roger Froikin ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>>>: Yehuda SIlver wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>: > : It’s just that simple.
>>>>>: >
>>>>>: > Actually, we do have a DEED, the Bible!
>>>>
>>>>>: Yehuda, though I agree 100 % with you on this, one cannot use as
>>>>>: evidence documentation the other side does not even recognize.
>>>>
>>>>>Why not?
>>>>
>>>>>They quote their mantally ill prophet all the time!
>>>>>They don’t care whether we recognize the psycho or not!
>>>>
>>>>>why are Isralei leaders so ashamed to ask for Kosher food at white
>>>house
>>>>>dinners?
>>>>
>>>> Because one of Clinton’s campaign promises was that he would keep
>>>>a Glatt Kosher kitchen at the White House and they don’t want to
>>>>embarrass him any further.
>>>>
>>>>—–
>>>>
>>>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>>>>
>>>You stink, you know. Giwer. Why would Clinton even consider a kosher
>>>kitchen for Rabin or Peres, neither of whom ate kossher. Maybe he
>>>would consider it for his buddy Arafat.
>>
>> Clinton is the one who promised, not me. Take it up with him.
>>Need his email address?
>>
>>
>>—–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>He made promise to recognize Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel
>and to move our embassy there. Then he wanted to veto it when Congress
>passed that very thing. Then corrupted the whole thing. You can’t
>make me defend him on that.

I was talking about the Glatt Kosher kitchen. So were you.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:18 PDT 1996
Article: 38415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revise those damn museums
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:30:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:29:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>the
>>>memorial with her proposal to build a huge tombstone-like structure
>>>inscribed with the names of the Jews who died in the Holocaust, but many
>>>supporters of the project, including Chancellor Kohl and his cabinet,
>>>voiced
>>>reservations about her design (cf. TWIG 7/7/95, p.6; 7/21/95,
>p.7).
>>> A
>>>new choice is now to be made from the seven best submissions to the
>>>original
>>>competition.
>>
>> But only the names of Jews. What was that I was saying about the
>>other six million only being a footnote?
>>
>>

>Now just stop and think: how many non-Jews would have been deported from a
>railroad station in Berlin?

Who cares about the rest? They are hardly worth mentioning.
After all, Jews were less than half, so they should be the only
ones remembered.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:19 PDT 1996
Article: 38420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:45:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 3:45:36 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38420 soc.culture.jewish:52493 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20586 soc.culture.israel:34469

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is your point in all of this? That if you own your
>own land
>>>>>>>>you can declare your own nation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No, but I think even you can’t dispute that until the great
>>>>>expulsion,
>>>>>>>there was a Jewish nation in that part of the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, as they used to say, what does that have to do with the
>>>>>>price of tea in China?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A generically independent political entity might have existed for
>>>>>>about 800 years ending in 600 BCE. The Iriquois Nations existed
>>>>>>in North America for over 600 years. Are claiming that someone
>>>>>>like Mussolini has the right to re-establish the Roman Empire
>>>>>>which was around for 1000 years?
>>>>
>>>>>As a matter of fact the Iroquois still do consider themselves a
>>>nation
>>>>>as well as many of the other tribes. Ask anyone who lives in
>>>Salamanca,
>>>>>N.Y. if the Senecas are still a nation.
>>>>
>>>> Ask them if they have tried to take the land back recently.
>>>>
>>>>>Your inference regarding the Roman Empire is ridiculous because
>>>anyone
>>>>>who has read any history knows what happened there.
>>>>
>>>> As does anyone reading the history of the middle east knows the
>>>>rather minor contribution the Israelites had to the region. If
>>>>it were not for the religious history of the region they would be
>>>>hardly more than an arcane footnote to history.
>>
>>>So religion and ethics and philosophy are minor contributions Your
>>>notes prove that. Others would dispute that
>>
>> Why would I claim that? On the other hand what would you claim
>>the Hebrew contribution to religion, ethics, or philosophy has
>>been? Or have you been buying into self-congratulatory fantasies
>>again?

>I see first off that you don’t know anything about Salamanca. I
>suggest that you read up. Second I have to assume that you are not a
>Christian.

Vaguely heard of him. What did he do that anyone else remembers?

Of course I am not a christian. However, it is a Mithric
offshoot that happens to have a Galilean rather than Mithra as
its central figure. And that religion was created by Paul who
never met the Galilean if he existed in the first place.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:19 PDT 1996
Article: 38425 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Anne Frank Died (was Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:34:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4n48[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 4:34:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Mon, 20 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >The claim that she was suffering from typhus in Auschwitz was
>> >made by you. Can you back it up, or is it one more of your lies?
>>
>>
>> But then, even without typhus, it is not clear what kind of labor
>> skills a 14 year old would have had to have been kept alive in
>> the first place.

>First off, Anne Frank was a little over 15 when she was arrested, not
>14. The _selektions_ upon arrival at Auschwitz were very arbitrary; it’s
>not particularly noteworthy that she survived when she first arrived at
>Auschwitz the night of September 5-6, 1944. Incidentally, of the 1,019
>people who arived at Auschwitz on that transport, 549 of them, including
>all children under the age of 15, were gassed the same day (Sept. 15).
>Among the adults gassed was Herman Van Pels, who had been in hiding with
>the Franks. (_The Diary of Anne Frank, Critical Edition_, p. 50)

When records of those gassed are requested we are told that there
were no records kept of those gassed immediately and therefore no
totals are possible. However, when convenient for the story
being told, we get numbers like 549 out of 1019 and even at least
one of the selection criteria, in this case age. In fact we even
a record by name of one of the people gassed.

>The _Critical Edition_ of the diary makes no mention of Anne and her
>sister being ill when they were evacuated from Auschwitz as the Germans
>attemprted to close down the camp in advance of the approaching Soviet
>Army. While the records of transports from Auschwitz do not list names
>of individual prisoners evacuated, it seems likely that Anne and Margot
>were among a transfer to Bergen-Belsen on October 28 1944 (_Critical
>Edition_ p. 52). The fact that both died sometime in late February or
>early March 1945 suggests that they did not
>contract typhus until *after* their arrival at Bergen-Belsen, which
>experienced a massive typhus epidemic near the *end* of the winter of
>1944-45 (_Critical Edition_ p. 54-55).

>Mr. Giwer’s contention that Anne Frank was already sick when she was sent
>from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen is quite simply incorrect. If anyone
>else in this group has made that claim, they are similarly incorrect.

Silence does not indicate anything in particular here. However,
healthy or ill, the use of transportation rather than the more
famous forced marches certainly indicates a desire to keep them
alive. So much the better even if she was healthy and still
transported rather than marched.

It certainly does present a different view than we are ordinarily
given.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:20 PDT 1996
Article: 38438 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:24:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 11:24:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># If you had understood what you were reading you would not have
># continued to claim death by CO poisoning.

>The claim is made in the Pattle et. al. paper, and is supported
>by autopsies of the animals. You’re claiming they’re wrong? Proof?

Now that you know science is not into proving things (that is for
math) The point is that if you had any technical competence you
would have known enough to be skeptical of the claim yourself.
BTW: You just invented the autopsy claim.

># But whether you learn it or not, your explanation is still
># nonsense and results in exactly what I said.

>This is trolling. Either prove me (and Pattle et. al.) wrong, or
>shut up. You’re boring, old son.

When you learn enough to stop talking like a creationist, get
back to me.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:21 PDT 1996
Article: 38447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: Proof is for Goyim
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:12:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 7:12:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> Another imaginary Nazi made up the holohuggers.

>Prove that the work already done is false. Get to it Giwer, show the
>folks in this newsgroup that you aren’t a total waste of energy. Show
>them that you really aren’t a meddler. I dare challenge you to do
>this.

Prove there was any work done in the first place. This is the
Gentile Rule in action.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:21 PDT 1996
Article: 38451 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:35:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 7:34:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> Therefore in a village of 200 with 100 survivors each person
> lost 100 relatives for a grand total of 10,000 people lost.

>That is the way the self-proclaimed “genius,” Mr. Giwer does math!
>His mistake is to attribute his own math inadequacy to those who
>studied the Holocaust.

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>It was never a question of how many died, as far as Mr. Giwer is
>concerned. For him, it will always be how much attention he can
>generate by insulting the memory of the dead!

What you folks have been ignoring is that I posted the AVERAGE
correct answer weeks before this exchange started. We start with
the 11 million (including 5 million from Russia) from the Wannsee
Protocol. We note Germany had at most control over about half of
Russia. That gives us that they had access to approximately 8.5
million Jews.

Next we note that the official Jewish number is 5.2 million or
thereabouts giving them a 61% efficiency rate.

That leaves use with each Jew losing on average 1.2 unique
relatives without doing the 100 out of 200 rountine I
demonstrated above. Access to any larger number of Russian Jews
results in a lower average.

My original exercise in determining the average number of unique
relatives was originally buried under a pile of “I lost my whole
family and so did my brothers” messages. I have it always found
it curious that world is populated with Jews who lost their
entire families and no other type.

It certainly puts a different perspective on things when instead
of talking about “entire families” one simply says 61%. Of
course there would be extremes of people who really are the only
survivors of their family but they would be balanced by equal
numbers who lost no family members but those folks do not appear
to exist.

And on average of course it would be 61% of the family. But then
it should be properly stated that “our family lost 60%.”

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 38455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:55:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 7:55:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry W. Mazal OBE) wrote:

>On Thu, 16 May 96 09:34:08 GMT, Alexander Baron
> wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>

>[text deleted]

>>[Text deleted for brevity] … I don’t dispute that many Jews lost relatives in
>>the Second World War, but the war claimed probably over 50 million lives, most of
>>them in or near Europe, and as there were many Jews in Europe this is one
>>reason. Unlike certain people – and contrary to the claims of others – I have
>>no intention of mocking any victims, but I don’t see what is so special about
>>Jewish suffering.

>Mr. Baron’s most extraordinary observations reveal his manly
>qualities. Claiming that “…Jews lost relatives…” as a result of
>the Second World War shows the level of cynicism which this sad,
>pathetic man has reached. He does not acknowledge the fact that Jews
>were killed _because_ they were Jews; that age, gender or occupation
>made no difference to Mr. Baron’s beloved Nazis; and equally
>pertinent, that all of the Jews killed in the Death Camps were
>civilian non-combattants. What is special about Jewish suffering is
>that Jews, to the exclusion of all other ethnic groups except for the
>Gypsies, were selected for extermination. War is hell, but there was
>no excuse for genocide.

And gays were killed merely because they were gay and the
handicapped because they were handicapped and the gypsies because
they were gypsies and Slavs because they were Slavs. Age, gender
or occupation did not matter for them either. They were also
civilian non-combatants.

In fact there is nothing unique about the Jews in this matter.
But you still have the mindset that the Jews were in some manner
unique. That only shows you what constant repetition will do.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 38463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:14:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38463 soc.culture.jewish:52555 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20604 soc.culture.israel:34508

Roger Froikin wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> And any Jews from Europe left either from Judea because of the
>> rebellion in 76AD or voluntarily, period.

>That’s absurd. Learn some history. Jews were given no choice. They
>were banned from greater and greater parts of palestine, first by Romans
>and then by Christians (several times).

By the Romans as punishment for the Rebellion of 76. If you have
a problem with that tell it to either the Romans or Barrabus.

>> It is an absurd onto idiotic claim not supported any place else
>> in the history of property or property rights.

>Again, your ignorance of history and of anything outside your little
>part of the USA is amasing.

Perhaps you could demonstrate other places where such claims
exist? Of course you can not but you will imply that you know
better.

>> And beyond that NONE of this, property ownership, has the
>> slightest thing to do with creating a political entity of a
>> nation. Not one bit of it applies in the least. Property
>> ownership has nothing to do with the existence of Israel, period.

>Oh, I see. You also don’t read very well. If you can show where anyone
>referred to property ownership, please do. I’m talking about a land
>having a unique national identity with one nation.

What you are talking is, as I have noted, nonsense.

>I don’t expect you to understand.

>My point ? I’m wondering what your point is in being here at all.

This is an NG for the discussion of revisionism. I am wondering
what the holohuggers are doing here.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 38464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:28:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:27:42 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles Don Hall) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>># Sorry, oh technically incompetent one, but your white stuff is
>>># still vaporized oil. That you can not comprehend the problem
>>># with that regarding flammability and explosiveness is your
>>># problem not mine.
>>
>>>Prove that such a danger existed. Start by posting the minimal
>>>concentration that would result in an explosion, and proving that
>>>this would be reached with an engine running on low fuel-air
>>>ratio. Prove that a spark could reach the gas chambers.
>>
>> For your first lesson, learn that science does not prove
>>anything. That it does is a creationist claim.
>>
>> Beyond that, you have already demonstrated yourself incapable of
>>following such a discussion.

>I think I see where you’re confused.

>This isn’t a question of *science*, it’s one of *engineering*.
>So, it’s meaningful to talk about proof in this context.
>(Obviously, we’re not doing a proof from first causes. Instead,
>we’re taking commonly-held “scientific facts” and assuming them
>as axioms, and then constructing the proof from there. These
>axioms are of course supported by observation, but they aren’t
>”proven” in the formal sense.)

As I said, science does not prove anything. Even less the
applied science of engineering.

>This is actually a little hard to explain, so maybe a practical
>example would help: Suppose you owned a car, and suppose that
>you hired me to put in an auxiliary gas tank. When I showed
>you my design, you noticed that the auxiliary tank would be
>connected to the main tank by a thin plastic hose which wrapped
>around the exhaust pipe.

>You might say something like, “That looks dangerous! If the hose
>rubs up against the exhaust pipe too much, that might wear a hole
>in it, and then the gasoline would leak and catch fire and kill me.”

>I might reply by saying something like, “Oh, that couldn’t happen.
>The hose is made of unbreakable plastic, and, even if it could leak,
>there’s no way that the gas could catch fire! Not in a million years!
>This is a good design!”

>It’s possible that my word wouldn’t be good enough for you. In that
>case, you’d ask to see some calculations showing that an accident
>like this would be unlikely to occur in less than “a million
>years”.

To me you are preaching to the choir. You audience is a person
who is going to cling to his little discovery until hell freezes
over. He would rather admit a new gross improbability than admit
the steam story was made up as that implies this story was made
up also.

>But, suppose that I didn’t produce these calculations. Instead,
>I started screaming, “It’s not fair! Calculations are a kind
>of proof, and science tells us there’s no such thing as proof!
>I can’t even prove your car exists; it might just be a mutual
>hallucination! The fact that you’re asking for proof just
>means that you’re a…a…a…a *mean* *old* *tribal*
>*Creationist*! AUUUUUGH!” Now, suppose that I burst into tears
>at this point.

>So: Would you be convinced by that argument? Would you allow me
>to install your auxiliary gas tank?

>And, if you *wouldn’t* be convinced, then why should Mr. Keren
>be convinced by your quite similar argument?

I have already explained to him what he has posted means, oil
vapors. Now if he is not honest enough to admit what that means
when mixed with air, there is nothing I can do to help him. If
he is not honest enough to admit that oil vapor is going to
settle inside the building and saturate it, I can not change his
mind.

Any reasonable person reading what I have written is going to
reject his idea that the “eyewitnesses” were actually witnessing
oil vapor that they misidentified as steam.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:24 PDT 1996
Article: 38466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:33:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 9:33:19 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>
>>>: It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>>>: equations [sic] after this statement.
>>
>>>Does this mean that you plan to give a source for you claim that HCN is
>>>a byproduct of coke combustion, or retract that claim in light of the
>>>evidence to the contrary posted here?
>>
>> That was NEVER my claim. I simply said that more HCN would
>>PROBABLY be produced by the Kremas than was ever used in any
>>extermination program. I added later that it was a normal
>>pollutant produced by the combustion process.
>>
>> Now of course you can pretend that things said near the end of a
>>discussion stand alone but that will only indicate you are newbie
>>to public discussions.
>>
>> So you see, I can not retract your straw man as I never said your
>>straw man.
>>
>> However, your fellow chemist mislead people by playing games with
>>the formal definition of burning into believing it was not a
>>normal by product.

>Now let’s examine what was actually said:

> On February 22, 1996 Mr. Giwer made some rather interesting comments on the
> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:

> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
> lets wait for his commentary.

> …

> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
> throw the rest away)

> Since you are such a great scientist perhaps you can explain how
> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
> explain.

Yes, you deliberately mislead other people and at no time did you
correct anyone who was citing you as the authority for saying
that HCN production was not possible. That is a fact.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 38467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:39:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>The deniers still exist.

>> So fucking what? Is it a crime? A sin? Immoral? Fattening?

>In France, it’s an suitable offence. The Frenchmen could soon have no
>access to alt.revisionism with our law. It could leave a free place to
>say any crap. Enjoy.

If the French government has determined their citizens are in
need of protection from these discussions or are not adult enough
to deal with them, then that speaks for the French, not for
Americans.

>>If you say that several hundred testimonies
>>>are false, that several hundred of papers were faked, you’re a true
>>>denier. Don’t worry, your honor of denier remains intact.

>> I don’t know about them. I discuss what is posted here.

>Whatever everybody could post, you seem a little thick. There is no
>real discussion.

When it is testimony rather than evidence and the testimony
disagrees with other testimony and physical law, it is those who
think I am thick that have the problem.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 38468 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:35:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 6:35:34 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Now that you know science is not into proving things (that is for
># math) The point is that if you had any technical competence you
># would have known enough to be skeptical of the claim yourself.

>Why?

Because you should know what breathing oil vapors does to the
lungs and you should have realized from the description that it
was oil vapors that claim were misidentified as steam.

You should know by now that scuba tanks are not filled with oil
lubricated piston pumps as even that amount of oil in the tanks
is lethal.

You should at least be able to imagine the consequences to
breathing concentrated oil vapors on the lungs.

># BTW: You just invented the autopsy claim.

>No, I did not. It’s there in the paper. “Pathological investigation
>were carried out on the exposed [to diesel fumes] animals”.

That was not in your original post.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 38470 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 9:10:30 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster. When do
> you expect to be able to retire?

>I expect most of those reading this newsgroup expect to retire when
>we can contribute nothing more of use to society, like Mr. Giwer.

I never contribute. I charge.

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many died, but how
>much attention he can get by insulting the memory of the dead.

Go find a more appropriate conference if you don’t like it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 38471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:20:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 9:19:53 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> I was clearly called a nazi and an antisemite for questioning
> anything contrary to the Nizkor Creed.

>On the contrary, Mr. Giwer was called names because he insists on
>calling everyone else the foulest names he can come up with!

> But of course you holohuggers will claim otherwise.

>Not only claim, but prove!

> And you folks even have your nazi-like files on me at Nizkor.

>Mr. Giwer objects to the files as they prove he is a liar! The only
>thing “nazi-like” about the files is that the Nazis kept files,
>therefore — in Mr. Giwer’s warped mind — anyone who keeps files is
>”nazi-like!”

I have been waiting for someone to defend them.

They prove nothing, period. They are all mine. They do not
include the other side of the exchange. In making them onesided
there is no way to establish their completeness. They are
completely useless for evidentiary purposes.

It is quite a waste of disk space.

>To sum up, in Mr. Giwer’s twisted world, keeping records is a
>”nazi-like” activity, whereas insulting Jews and Holocaust victims is
>not!

But then I do not object to them. I welcome them as evidence of
the nazi-like behavior of Nizkor.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:29 PDT 1996
Article: 38475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:53:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 7:53:13 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected]com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>>You obviously don’t make any difference beteween coke and coal. The
>>>main point is: have you ever heard something about HCN in domestic
>>>coke heating, or even in furnacies ? As I said, the cure is very
>>>different and you should have heard somewhat about it. Some
>>>referencies ?

>> When would anyone have heard about even domestic coal heating in
>>the 40 or so years? Was there ever domestic coke heating?

>Coke is produced since 1815, and on a large scale before the second
>war. Even in the 40’s, only CO could cause any trouble. The problem is
>about the HCN rates on the walls of the ‘vergassungkeller’, one floor
>beneath the furnacies. You should give a look on the composition of
>the coal oven gasses to know the rate of the HCN in the average coal
>heating conditions (1000°C-1400°C). The HCN rate is ridiculous low.
>Nothing to ‘stick’ on the walls.

As I said, in the last 40 years.

NOR did I at any time say anything about sticking to any walls.
I mentioned simply that the chimneys would PROBABLY have put out
more HCN than was used in any gassing.

You will notice that our unethical chemist here will avoid any
reference to that original statement at all costs.

But since it is an acid, it has nothing to do with quantity.
Whatever would react would “stick” as you so quaintly put it.

And the quaint phrasing indicates you have not the least idea
what you are talking about but repeating what others have said.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:29 PDT 1996
Article: 38476 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:00:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:00:08 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines at Dr. Keren:

> You have admitted you are unqualifed to discuss any technical
> subject.

>Yet another example of Mr. Giwer’s intellectual dishonesty! No one
>has admitted any such thing!

He has not only admitted be demonstrated it. That you can not
recognize it means only that you are equally unqualified.

>Apparently, Mr. Giwer still has trouble reading plain English.

I read it quite well. It is your technical illiteracy the
prevents you from recognizing the issues.

> Please go away. You are out of your league.

>That is Mr. Giwer’s most logical argument to date! He cannot refute
>Mr. Keren. He can only beg him to “go away” before he exposes even
>more of Mr. Giwer’s lies.

Both you and he are unqualifed to recognize that the refutation
has already been presented. That is a problem you two will have
to deal with.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 38477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:03:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:03:00 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> And of course at least three people will come back claiming I
> have no idea what I am talking about while refusing to post what
> they believe to be the real history.

>On the contrary, Mr. Giwer will demand that anyone responding to this
>post provide complete citations, even though he will never produce
>even a single, solitary one!

I will require evidence that is not contrary to physical law.
You failure to recognize technical information is simply your
ignorance of science speaking.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 38482 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!insync!news.io.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:22:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 3:22:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>> You must be Jewish to do such a
>>think.
>>
>>
>>

>Totally unnecessary remark, that could easily be construed as
>anti-semitic. Although in this case you were not the first to cast
>stones. That makes two.

>PS: When are you going to realize that making anti-semitic comments is
>not going to persuade anyone?

No matter what I say, one of these jerkoffs will call it
antisemitic. Or haven’t you noticed that?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 38483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:01:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:01:16 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) writes:

>>
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>># Give it up. You have no technical background much less any
>>># experience with patents.
>>
>>>Ok. Let’s go over it again.
>>
>>>The naziboys claim that it took a very long time for the
>>>HCN to evaporate from the Zyklon. The Zyklon patent and
>>>the book by Dr. Peters, the leading scientist of the firm
>>>that used to manufacture it, give a much shorter time.
>>
>>
>Now let’s get this straight: the HCN is not 100% exhausted from the
>carrier material in 10 minutes. No one says this: neither Peters nor
>Keren. That means the carrier material continues to be a risk. I can
>accept that the Zyklon was lethal in 10 minutes, but to claim that it was
>inert in 10 minutes does not follow.

Tell it to Keren not me.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 38484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:02:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:01:49 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> As predicted, no evidence, mere refutation. Sounds like a Monty
> Python routine.

>Indeed, considering that Mr. Giwer never offered any evidence to back
>up his own position to begin with! Mere assertion demands no better
>response than mere refutation.

Then you have been technically unqualifed to comprehend what I
have posted.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 38511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:30:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:29:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 21 May 1996 03:45:52 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>!Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
>!>!mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.

>!>Let me get this right.
>!>FACT — ComBase Communications (as did Giwer)emailed VOLANT to have my
>!>website taken down with threats of a lawsuit because I inferred Matt
>!>Giwer was *associated* with them.

>!I am not going to tell you what idiot thing you did to get that
>!response. You may, however, continue to guess. No hints. If
>!you had asked real nice, volant might have told you.

>What mindless gobbelygook…

>!>Now you say that the two people maintaining the ComBase ISP are your
>!>son and a friend of yours?

>!That was the first thing I said about it in response to how I
>!found out so quickly about your phone call trying to get my
>!account cancelled.

>I made no phone call you pathological little liar.

Some one calling himself David Dahlman did. Apparently that was
a lie. Maybe I called. Maybe Alec called. But someone did call
claiming they were David Dahlman. How are you connected to that
poor bastard without a family and cursed by his neighbors?

>!In fact you read it months ago and back then
>!you even mentioned it in one or your messages. So why are you
>!playing the ignorant shit now?

>!BTW: Want to deny you made that demand on the phone one more
>!time?

>Of course I deny making any phone calls to ComBase because I made no
>phone calls to ComBase. What a shitcan little liar you are. This is a
>lie just like your lie about McFee calling you.

Of course Jackoff Rite made no phone call. David Dahlman did.

>!>And what is this now, Grynspan has contacts with ComBase too?
>!>Figures…

>!I think my son and Alec once exchanged a couple words on the
>!phone once but so far as I am aware that is the extent of it.
>!Would you have a problem if he did?

>You just said up there to Grynspan that “And my son maintains an ISP and
>a mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.” You
>are so f**ked up you float Giwer…
>Are you TRYING to prove yourself a pathological liar and totally inept
>in these discussions, or are you just that stupid?

Susan Stern, wipe your cunt goodbye.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 38512 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:24:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:24:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>: >If Mr. Giwer means my solution to the turbulent diffusion problem, I
>: >have indeed posted it many times.

>: Unfortunately, you have not. . .

>To use the technical term, this statement is known as a “lie.” Richard
>Green has repeatedly posted his calculations of the diffusion of HCN
>through the gas chamber. But Prince Myshkin, being nothing more than a
>troller, hopes in his juvenile way that this constantly repeated lie will
>succeed in getting a rise out of Mr. Green; an unlikely eventuality, by
>the way.

Listen up, oh member of the clean up staff in the chem lab. No
rational scientist posts any equations without the constants
filled in and the justification for the constants given. That
was not done. Now get back to your mop.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:34 PDT 1996
Article: 38513 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:21:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:21:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 21 May 1996 03:54:22 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!And of course you have never called anyone and tried to get their
>!access terminated. Charlen Kyle, Bill Blomgren, Jim Kittrell all
>!say otherwise. But you never lie. You never do such things.
>!Interesting though, the person who made the calls to all of them
>!gave his name as David Dahlman. How do you suppose that David
>!Dahlman got around to leading to a threat of lawsuit to VOLANT?

>All flat out lies…

Still hearing me on your radio every night?

You are a whacko Davey-Girl. A true holohugger like all the rest
of them. You are showing holohuggers for what they really are,
brain dead fools, as you are demonstrating.

They are all like you. Equally brain dead.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:35 PDT 1996
Article: 38515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 05:08:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:07:53 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry W. Mazal OBE) wrote:

>On 20 May 1996 13:32:22 -0400, [email protected] (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>> […] And the saddest thing is that Giwer is
>>>>no teenage punk; he’s 50 years old.
>>>
>>> 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster.
>>
>> Why should anyone bother to remember a claim that could be made by
>>anyone on a psychiatric disability pension?

>Mr. Stein is quite right. It is one thing to be retired because one
>has the financial ability to maintain a high style of living; another
>to be retired because one’s business has collapsed. Evil tongues hint
>that the gentleman in question is hampered by a severe disability.
>Can this brought upon by the less than moderate consumption of
>certain ethanolic beverages?

It is an amusing fantasy you folks are creating, that I was
“retired.” Want to try to back up your claim?

How very Jewish of you.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:36 PDT 1996
Article: 38522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.sojourn.com!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:44:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 6:44:02 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># You do realize you are destroying the entire image of the SS as a
># fanatical organization dedicated to Der Feuhrer. You are now
># creating an image where anything that happened was simply due to
># undisciplined street thugs.

>With an IQ of 163 (har-har), you are expected to do better. I never
>said the SS was run by street thugs. But it is true that quite a
>few of the SS-men and women of the lowest ranks, who served in
>Auschwitz-Birkenau, were low-life criminals and brutes.

Who were not following orders. Right? But this is an
interesting claim. Would you care to post the police records of
a few of them while identifying the positions they held?

># I have no idea. There is no indication in the picture.

>Oh, look closer. You’ll probably find it.

It still isn’t there.

># What do you think they died from?

>Intentional starvation, mostly. Many were also shot.

Massive dehydration is the most I can see for sure. Neither
bloated bellies or gunshots wounds are in evidence.

Image 1 shows some partially burned bodies that have been exposed
for some time. 2 appears to be bodies that have been exposed for
a couple weeks or more. 3 is completely unclear.

So what do you see?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:37 PDT 1996
Article: 38528 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:36:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 1:35:49 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>## This is, unfortunately, true. And the saddest thing is that
>>>## Giwer is no teenage punk; he’s 50 years old.

>>># 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster. When do
>>># you expect to be able to retire?

>>>Certainly not when I’m 51. I have no idea why someone would retire
>>>at such an early age. Maybe no one wanted to hire him. I really
>>>don’t think that early retirement is something to boast about…

>> You should think of it that way. I really can see you at 65 on
>>Social Security wondering what happened to you.

>All participants in the conference can see that this has nothing to do
>with the Holocaust. The Giwer-Troll, a fifty-year-old man, has nothing
>better to do than to meddle in what would be otherwise interesting
>discussions among serious people. He’s a kibitzer of no redeaming
>social value and on the whole is treated that way by 90% of the
>participants in this newsgroup. Everyone will note that this quidnunc
>offers nothing to back up his canards and distortions. I just hope
>that no one is fooled by this destructive interloper.

Me? I am one of the few people who stays on the topic of the NG.
The majority of participants here are intent upon using it to
support the orthodox views of the holocaust.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:38 PDT 1996
Article: 38550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 05:05:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 10:05:15 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>Matt,

>I’ve been reading your expert postings and I thought you could use a lay
>opinion:

>Your pseudoscientific arguments

How would you know? You have no scientific training and thus are
incapable of judging.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:38 PDT 1996
Article: 38556 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:05:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 7:05:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>Giwer, does it ever accure to you to wonder why some innocent little
>>>>>girl like Anne Frank had to die like that?
>>>>>Chuckles
>>>>
>>>> Did it ever occur to you that you are senile?
>>
>>>Matt, this is a grotesque insult. Chuck asked you an honest question
>>>about a girl who got screwed over just because she was Jewish. Your
>>>rejoinder is just to ask him if he has lost his mind. This does not help
>>>your credibility.
>>
>> What makes you think I care about your opinion?

>He’s relatively new here. He doesn’t know you very well, and he’s giving
>you the benefit of the doubt. As I did.

>Matt, give me a PO box, and I’ll mail you my copy of “How to Win Friends
>and Influence People.”

You are not very good at reading if you really think that is what
he was doing.

As for the other, my address is no secret.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:39 PDT 1996
Article: 38557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:16:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 21 8:15:43 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines at Mr. Stein:

> And you continue to lie about what happened as expected.

>No one has ever caught Mr. Stein in a lie, whereas Mr. Giwer has been
>caught lying several times! It is no oversight that Mr. Giwer has
>provided not a single, solitary shred of evidence to back up his
>accusation. On the other hand, evidence of Mr. Giwer’s duplicity
>abound.

> Do you have anything else to offer?

>Mr. Stein has always had hard, cold, verifiable facts to offer, which
>is more than can be said of Mr. Giwer.

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many died, but how
>much notoriety he can milk from a few callous insults offered to the
>memory of the dead.

If you don’t like it, go to a holocaust NG. This is for
discussion of revisionism.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 38565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:10:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38565 soc.culture.jewish:52678 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20635 soc.culture.israel:34569

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>>>I see first off that you don’t know anything about Salamanca. I
>>>suggest that you read up. Second I have to assume that you are not a
>>>Christian.
>>
>> Vaguely heard of him. What did he do that anyone else remembers?
>>
>> Of course I am not a christian. However, it is a Mithric
>>offshoot that happens to have a Galilean rather than Mithra as
>>its central figure. And that religion was created by Paul who
>>never met the Galilean if he existed in the first place.

>You really are the pits. You claim to be so intelligence. For you and
>for all on the board who are interested. Salamanca is the name of a
>city in western NY where the land is owned entirely by the Seneca
>Nation. Euro-Americans can lease land on which they built their homes
>but cannot own the land. The lease ran out and is not being renewed.
>The Senecas have demanded the land back including the houses which were
>built on it and have set up road blocks so anyone driving in that part
>of the state has to make detours.

>Do I understand that you are a pagan?

What ever you choose to understand, you will understand.

But in any even you have not presented word one as to any Hebrew
contribution to anything worth remembering. There was no
contribution whatsoever save for a great defense that resulted in
two Emperors of Rome.

It is a totally worthless piece of shit.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 38583 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:35:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 12:35:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Because you should know what breathing oil vapors does to the
># lungs and you should have realized from the description that it
># was oil vapors that claim were misidentified as steam.

>The Pattle et. al. paper states that when this kind of exhaust
>was present, the main cause of death was CO, followed by irritants.

Then you should have questioned the paper. You certainly have
his address or at least that of the journal.

>### BTW: You just invented the autopsy claim.

>## No, I did not. It’s there in the paper. “Pathological investigation
>## were carried out on the exposed [to diesel fumes] animals”.

># That was not in your original post.

>You’re really one pathetic little kvetcher.

And your buildings are still fuel/air bombs while in operation
and fires waiting to start when not.

Why not just give up this explanation and agree that the steam
story was pure fabrication?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 38592 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:06:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 11:06:14 AM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>># Give it up. You have no technical background much less any
>>>># experience with patents.
>>>
>>>>Ok. Let’s go over it again.
>>>
>>>>The naziboys claim that it took a very long time for the
>>>>HCN to evaporate from the Zyklon. The Zyklon patent and
>>>>the book by Dr. Peters, the leading scientist of the firm
>>>>that used to manufacture it, give a much shorter time.

> Now get a load of the wording. He says the naziboys claim it took
>a “very long time” and Dr. Peters gives it “a much shorter time”. Time
>units can range from eons to nanoseconds. The writer is corrupt. He
>avoids specifics. When he comes out here with this he exposes his
>contempt for the reader.
>

>>>
>>Now let’s get this straight: the HCN is not 100% exhausted from the
>>carrier material in 10 minutes. No one says this: neither Peters nor
>>Keren. That means the carrier material continues to be a risk. I can
>>accept that the Zyklon was lethal in 10 minutes, but to claim that it was
>>inert in 10 minutes does not follow.
>>
> The times offered by Keren in the past have been from 40% of the
>HCN lost in the first half hour to 50%. The gassings took, averaging
>the varying times, ten minutes. This would be 1/3 of 40%, which would
>be over 85% left after the intended procedure.
> This is why Keren avoids specifics. He’s thoroughly corrupt. He’s
>been through the mill on this release rate before, the record is
>there, yet he still uses his little wording.

Rather it would appear he is incapable of appreciating the
difference. We find this in creationists also. They will
“explain” the capacity of Noah’s Ark by saying it was not
millions of species but only a few thousand “kinds” not realizing
that has introduces even worse problems. They are unqualified to
think through the consequences of the “clever” solutions to the
original problem.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:42 PDT 1996
Article: 38610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:18:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:18:17 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Ok, Giwer. I’ll give you a hint: there was a rather senior SS-man
>in Auschwitz-Birkenau who had a criminal record, and even spent
>time in a German jail before the war. Let’s see if you know
>who he was.

Only one person. That is quite a change from the original
implication. Would you like to post a single story that you can
stick with for a change?

>And how can you fail? You keep stating that you are far smarter
>than everyone else on this group. 163 IQ and all that.

>Re the photos I posted: you refer to 1,2 and 3. I posted only
>one photo from Belsen. Perhaps you’re thinking about the
>photographs from Thekla. Heck, if you could post that Belsen was
>in Poland, you could surely confuse it for Thekla. 163 IQ. WOW.

Then post the pictures you are talking about with a specific
statement of the point you want to make with the picture so we
can discuss it. You appear to be doing your best to remain a
moving target.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:43 PDT 1996
Article: 38611 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:59:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 777
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:59:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>4/19/96

>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.002
>>Last-Modified: 1995/08/18
>>Source: United States Department of Justice
>>
>> EXCERPT
>> From Interrogration of Defendant
>>
>>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL’, Investigator of the Fourth
>>Department of the “SMERSH” Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant –
>>
>> LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>> of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>> citizen of the USSR.

> This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
>might expect from a real hearing. It is more like some tale with a few
>questions inserted. A question is asked and then Leleko goes off with
>a extended comment and the interogator never poses any thing for
>clarification. Even UFO story writers cover their stuff more
>carefully.
> As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing to the story
>than “eyewitness testimony”. No photographs or anything. The Treblinka
>chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp was built
>one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the next year
>demolished by the Germans the next year, and was nothing more than a
>tree farm the next year.
> The report is titled “EXERPT – interrogation of defendant”. so we
>know we are getting only part of the story. It took place in Feb. 1945
>just a month after the Russians arrived at Auschwitz.
> Instead of wearing anyone out with a lot of prelude I will just
>say that it is totally absurd, but a step by step composition has been
>made and is below.
> For anyone wanting to forgo following the step by step commentary
>and observations, a summary is presented at the end. Nevertheless,
>this testimony is a prime example of how way out Holocaust eyewitness
>testimony can be and is a good example to pour over.

>>Question: What was the system of mass extermination of people in the
>>German death camp of Treblinka?
>>
>>Answer: Two to three trainloads of doomed prisoners arrived daily at
>>the Treblinka railroad station. Each train consisted of 60 cars. The
>>train was brought in three installments into the second section of the
>>”death camp”. Twenty cars were brought in every half hour. As soon as
>>the cars crossed the barbed wire, the guard was changed. The policemen
>>escorting the train remained outside the camp and left on the
>>locomotive to fetch the next batch of prisoners. The railroads cards
>>brought into the camp were immediately unloaded by the guards. We
>>started to unload the cars with the help of the so-called “blue crew”
>>consisting of doomed prisoners wearing a blue armband on the sleeve.
>>Those arriving were told that they must first go to the batch house
>>and will then be sent further to the Ukraine. But the sight of the
>>camp, the enormous flaming pyre burning at one end of the camp, the
>>suffocating stench from decomposing bodies that spread for some 10 km
>>around and was particularly strong within the camp itself, made it
>>clear what the place really was.

> Okay, right here we have the statement that everyone arriving at
>the camp became immediately aware of what was in store for them.
>Notice the statement that the “enormous flaming pyre” was at one end
>of the camp. Treblinka is reported to have consisted of 16 hectares
>(about 40 acres). Another testimony on Treblinka states that all the
>burying, unburying, burning and reburying took place right inside this
>40 acres. As we will see later on in the report, the witness claims
>2,000,000 people were murdered and disposed of in just one year, which
>would be within the confines of the 40 acres.
> The witness states the smell from the raging pyre could be
>smelled ten kilometers away. “Ten kilometers”?

No. This witness speaks of decomposing bodies despite their
being burned.

>>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>>trying to escape and killed them.
>> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
>> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
>> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

>Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
>will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
>years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
>any other “years” the witness testified to.

> It seems the Germans didn’t have a very good procedure for
>keeping the intended victims from knowing what was in store for them,
>and never did figure one out, having to go through this wild mayhem on
>a day to day basis.

>>These were carried by the prisoners
>>belonging to the “blue crew” into the so-called “infirmary”, the name
>>given to the place where the ailing and the wounded were shot and the
>>dead were burned.

> Right here we have the statement saying this “infirmary” was a
>place that you entered and where the dead were burned. Try to
>formulate a picture of this incineration process along the way.

>> This place became particularly crowded when the
>>prisoners marked for death who were brought in the railroad cars
>>attempted to commit suicide. Thus, in March 1943 there arrived a train
>>in which half of the prisoners cut their throats and hands with
>>razors.

> Now the testimony so far says 3 trains a day arrived at the camp,
>each having 60 cars, and 20 cars at a time were brought up to be
>unloaded, which would make the total number of times this procedure
>would have happened in a year about 3000 times. Thus on this one
>occasion out of 3000 times, half the prisoners cut their own throats.

Just to totally confound the innumerate out there, that is an
average of 8.2 times per day for 365 days a year in this one
year. That is roughly every two hours presuming the staff slept
or every three hours with a three shift operation.

At this point we have at least a time estimate for the entire
process, from start to clean up, 2-3 hours. We can also subtract
the one hour set aside for the actual gassing, leaving 1-2 hours
to get the bodies into the pits and call up the next 20 cars.

> Evidentally the Germans didn’t search the prisoners before
>they were loaded on the train or they were allowed to carry razors and
>knives. We might assume these razors were the flip out “straight”
>razor types, common to the era. Are we to believe the Germans allowed
>hundreds of these weapons to get through, especially knowing what kind
>of place the prisoners were going? Was this the only trainload that
>had possession of all these knives and razors?
> The testimony that these people killed themselves before they
>even got off the train would indicate they knew what was in store for
>them even before unloading.

>> While unloading was going on, the prisoners cut themselves
>>with knives and razors before the eyes of us, the policement, saying:
>>”anyhow you will kill us”. The majority of those who did not die of
>>self-inflicted wounds were shot. After the unloading, all those who
>>could stand on their feet were chased toward the undressing place.
>>There the wormen were separated from the men and pushed into a special
>>barrack, while the men were told to undress right there outside
>>another barrack. During the first years of the existence of the camp,
>>women and men undressed together in the same barrack,

> The Holocaust story has it that Treblinka was in operation for
>only a year yet here we have the testimony, “During the first years of
>the existance of the camp …”. Evidentally this testimony wasn’t
>synchronized with other accounts that had to have the process of the
>camp last only one year.

Interesting also is that this is the first account we have of men
and women undressing together as in all the other stories sexual
decorum is maintained.

>> But it happened
>>once that the prisoners attacked the “chief of the working crew” in
>>the undressing barrack. Somehow the man managed to escape from there.
>>Several policemen and Germans immediately rushed in. One of the
>>Germans started firing into the crowd from his sub-machine gun. After
>>they had stopped shooting, the Germans and the policemen started to
>>beat with clubs and whips those who survivied. After this incident,
>>men were assigned a special place in the open air in which to
>>undress, by the barrack, across from the women’s undressing place.
>>Pushed by the clubs of the Germans and the policemen, the men threw
>>off their clothing, having first handed their valuables and money to a
>>special “cashier’s office”. The women were obliged to remove their
>>shoes before entering the undressingplace. They were forced to remove
>>all their clothing under the supervision of German policemen and
>>prisoners of the so-called “red crew”. Those who resisted were
>>whipped.

> Here we have the first accounts of the brutal sadistic nature of
>the Germans.

>>Very often the Germans and the policemen tore off and cut off the
>>clothing of those who did not want to undress or undressed too slowly.
>>Many women begged to be allowed to keep at least some clothing on
>>their persons, but the German, smiling cynically, ordered them to
>>undress “to the end”. The policemen or the workers threw to the ground
>>and undressed who refused to do so. The undressed women were told to
>>hand over all their valuables and money to the “cashier’s office”.
>>After this the women were driven in groups to another part of the
>>barrack, where 50 prisoners – “hairdressers” were working. The women
>>sat on a long bench and the “hairdressers” cut off their hair. The cut
>>hair were packed in large bags and sent by trainloads to Germany. One
>>of the Germans told me that in Germany they are used to fill
>>mattresses, also for soft upholstery. He said that this hair make very
>>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.

> The hair was bagged and sent to Germany to be made into
>mattresses and upholstery. This is in the same ilk as the now defunct
>soap story which was well publicized in the early years after the war.
>We could take special note of the attack on the German people in
>general with “He said that this hair make very good mattresses and the
>Germans buy them willingly”. “Willingly” to imply they knew what they
>were buying.

So much for the felt and socks stories.

>>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.
>>After their hair was cut the women were sent in batches to the third
>>section of the camp, to the “bath house”, but in reality to the gas
>>chamber to be exterminated there.
>>
>>Before entering the gas chamber building they passed along a long path
>>bordered on both sides with a high fence made of barbed wire and
>>branches. Along the edge of the path stood policemen and Germans. Each
>>one held a whip or a club. I stood repeatedly on the edge of this path
>>with other policemen and drove along with a whip the women and the men
>>into the gas chamber building. Many women were not quite sure that
>>they would now be exterminated and in order to have some means of
>>subsistence in the future, they hid some valuables on their persons.

> All of a sudden the prisoners, who in the immediate previous
>testimony were all supposed to know they were going to die, hid their
>valuables so they would “have some subsistence in the future”.
>”Future”?

Everyone knows and doesn’t know at the same time. It is part of
the stories.

>>To prevent this, the Germans placed special controllers in the center
>>of the path. When they noticed that a woman walked along the path
>>holding her legs close together, she was stopped at once and cynically
>>examined, and if anything was found on her, she was beaten almost to
>>death. The men walked more quietly down this path. Several times I
>>heard how one, speaking to another, asked: “Why are you weeping? Do
>>you believe you can arouse compassion in these Germans?” Frequently we
>>could hear cries of “Hail Stalin!”, “Hail the Red Army!” To us Russian
>>guards, they said: “Today you exterminate us, and tomorrow the Germans
>>will be killing you”.
>>
>>When the procession of doomed people approached the gas chamber
>>building, MARCHENKO and Nikolay, the motorists of the gas chambers
>>shouted: “Walk faster, or the water will become cold!” Each group of
>>women or men was pushed from behind by some German and very frequently
>>by Franz, the camp commander himself, escorted by dogs. As they
>>approached the gas chambers, the people started to recoil in horror,
>>sometimes they tried to retrace their steps. Then whips and clubs were
>>used. Franz immediately ordered his dog to attack the naken people.
>>Each trained for this, it grabbed them by their genitals.

> Okay, more stories of German brutality.

Get a mental image of these trained dogs in action. Think about
the effectiveness of the method. It would have been a very
delicate bite else (the men at least) are not going to be walking
for a long time.

>>Aside from the motor operators who had dogs with them, there were five
>>or six Germans near the gas chambers. With whips and clubs they chased
>>people into the passage of the gas chamber building and then into the
>>gas chambers. The Germans and the motor operators then competed as to
>>atrocities with regard to the people to be killed. MARCHENKO for
>>instance, had a sword with which he mutilated people. He cut off the
>>breasts of women.

> Can you picture it. As the Germans and the Russian motorman were
>herding the people into the gas chamber they took time to hack a few
>in front of the others. Evidentally the Germans didn’t worry about
>this causing any panic among the rest, all this happening again and
>again during the 3000+ times the procedure took place. Can you picture
>it? Womens breasts laying around on the ground. What happened then?
>Did they just file the people into the chambers over the cut off
>breasts or did someone have to go around and pick them up? Did they
>put the mutilated body parts in containers and then take them over to
>the cremation along with the rest of the bodies?

I notice the use of these anachronistic devices, whips and swords
in this case.

>>When the chamber was filled to capacity, the Germans or the motorists
>>came to the door and started beating up the naked people with a rubber
>>whip and at the same time set their dogs against them. The prisoners
>>shrank away into the depth of the chamber yielding place to more
>>prisoners.
>> Such a pressing-in occurred several times so that some 700
>>to 800 people could be crowded into the not-so-large chambers. When
>>the chambers were filled to the very limit, the Germans started to
>>throw in the children left by the women either in the undressing place
>>or more frequently outside the gas chamber building. As the ceiling of
>>the gas chambers was very low, the children thrown into the chamber
>>hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads,
>>fell on the heads of the prisoners.

> We will recognize by the end of what is given, we can not get a
>picture of this chamber in our heads or the size of the door. But
>according to a previous post by McVay “Holocaust Almanac: The Killing
>Begins” posted 10/23/95, the doors would have been barely three feet
>across by 5 feet high. This Leleko testimony says kids were thrown in
>over the heads of those in the chamber. The ceiling is said to have
>been very low. An average ceiling is about 8 feet, but this one was
>very low. Seven feet? Six feet? Now how far could someone throw a
>child in under the circumstances described? The people were densed
>packed in, so they must have been right at the door way too. How did
>the Germans contain this situation while throwing in the children
>through a 3 foot by 5 foot door with very little head room as the
>space that the children were thrown? According to the other mentioned
>testimony, fake shower heads were installed which one might think even
>put more of a problem of throwing in babies over the heads of the
>dense packed people.
> Whatever, the McVay Almanac account says “There had been
>instances in the old chambers in which little children had not been
>asphyxiated because gas rose to the ceiling”. This seems thoroughly
>contradictory to this Leleko testimony, or vice versa.

>>When loading of the chambers was completed, they were sealed off by
>>hermetically closing doors.

> On the one hand the witness says a chamber was loaded with 800
>people and the another post by McVay from the Almanac says 600.

Notice the buzz word also, hermetically. Presuming there is some
meaning to this then the entire building was also “hermetic”.

>>Motorists MARCHENKO and Nikolay started
>>the motors. The gas produced went through the pipes into the chambers.
>>The process of suffocation began.

> This person is under the opinion that the extermination process
>was by suffocation and not the result of being poisoned with carbon
>monoxide. In the other testimony mentioned, it says the gas was
>introduced through the piping to the showerheads, a story that was
>applied at on time to tales of Auschwitz, and other camps now revised
>as having never been extermination camps in the first place.

Ahhhh, but the building was air tight. Introducing engine
exhaust building up the air pressure in the room. It is quite an
interesting construction problem to build such a building. It is
sort of the kind of project one would assign to NASA.

>> Some time after the motor had been
>>started, the motorists looked into the chambers through special
>>observation portholes situated near each door, in order to determine
>>how the process of extermination was going on. When asked what they
>>saw, the motorists answered that the people were writhing, crushing
>>each other. I also tried to look through the porthole, but for some
>>reason could see nothing.

> He looked in but couldn’t see anything? Was this only once out of
>all the time he was there, or did he attempt it numerous times? The
>motorman didn’t seem to have any problem looking inside, even though
>he should have, since the Almanac says there were no lights at all
>inside the chamber.

Lets see now. An air tight room without windows or lighting (or
a different problem with lighting), the only source of light
being the porthole itself, so he is out in the sunlight and
actually seeing what is going on in the unlit room. Very
interesting.

>>Gradually the noise in the chambers died
>>down. Some fifteen minutes later the motors were stopped and there was
>>an unusual silence.
>>
>>While extermination of this batch of prisoners went on, a new batch of
>>condemned people arrived into the camp. The entire process started all
>>over again.
>>
>>Question: What was done with the bodies of the prisoners?

> So we can see from this question the interogators weren’t
>concerned with or didn’t formulate any questions while listening to
>the witness.

Obviously rehearsed testimony. One has to question just who and
under what circumstances this person was questioned. It is
highly unlikely this was a defendent.

>>Answer: When the process of extermination by gasses was completed, the
>>outer doors of the chambers were opened. The disfigured, bitten
>>prisoners, with torn-off noses and ears lay on top of each other in
>>the most varied postures.

> Suddenly “outer doors”. Actually going by the description of how
>the Germans made a number of whippings to get more and more people
>into the chambers, “800 in a not too large of a chamber” we wonder how
>they would have room to “writher and crush” each other. They should
>all have died standing up.
> What happened inside the chambers? The prisoners “tore off” their
>own noses and ears or they tore each others noses and ears off? How
>did they do this in a tight dense pack situation like the one thus
>described? How does one tear off noses and ears? Maybe it means the
>victims bit each others ears and noses off.
> This didn’t seem to be the case in the tales of Auschwitz.
>Perhaps Holocaust defenders would say it because they were gassed with
>carbon momoxide. Yet carbon monoxide is a very sutble gas. Many people
>have died from just being in the same room with some brickettes,
>trying to keep warm. They die in their sleep. And of course many
>people have committed suicide by sitting in their car with a hose
>running from the tail pipe through a window. Are these all reported to
>have died in a writhering agony?

Obviously the questioner had no experience with such matters.
Equally obviously the person “testifying” had no such experience
either.

>>Several hundred prisoners destined for death and belonging to the
>>”working crews” were chased to the gas chamber building and they
>>started to unload the chambers.

> Several hundred were involved in unloading the chambers.

>> In order to facilitate the removal of
>>the dead bodies from the chambers, streams of water were poured over
>>them. The bodies were laid on stretchers. An especially assigned man
>>with pincers stood right there and opened the dead mouths. If he found
>>any gold teeth he yanked them out with his pincers. The bodies were
>>carried on stretchers to the special furnace about which I have
>>testified earlier.

> Here we have it one guy, “An especially assigned man” standing
>”right there” to pull the teeth as the hundreds of workers filed up to
>and away from the chamber. We can imagine the process would be quite
>confusing, what with all the bodies crammed in, the workers lined up
>to get the bodies, stopping to have the teeth pulled out of the body
>they were carrying, filing past each other back and forth over the
>path as they retrieved and carried away back to be cremated. All this
>with body parts laying around on the ground?

Given that we have a time frame for all of this to occur of 2-3
hours we are rapidly running up against some severe time
constraints for one person to examine 800 mouths. At 4 seconds
per mouth it consumes an hour.

And suddenly we have a real furnace, not an open pit, that is
capable of 200 to 300 bodies per hour.

>> On the way there, under the effect of the fresh
>>air, some of the killed, especially pregnant women, began to revive,
>>to groan.

> After the massive crushing into the chamber(s), there to wait 15
>minutes while the gas was introduced and people were writhering in the
>dense pack situation, tearing and/or biting noses and ears off, it
>turns out the ones that survived were mostly pregnant women.

It does bring a tear to the eye, does it not?

>> We the policemen, shot them on the spot and I had to shoot
>>them too. The bodies were laid on the rails of the incinerator where
>>the fire burned already. Some 800-1000 bodies were laid on the
>>incinerator at one time.

> Take note of these mentioned “rails”. Were they over some kind of
>pit? Maybe we’ll find out down the road. We can hold onto the “800 to
>1,000 bodies” for future comment.

>> They continued to burn for some five hours.

> Amid this testimony it is said that a new batch was brought in
>every half hour, that there were 2 to 3 trains a day coming in, each
>one holding 3,500 to 4,000 people. Lets take the 3,500, giving the
>Holocaust story the benefits of the lower numbers. This would be
>rounded off, 10,000 people a day. Giving the Holocaust story the
>benefit of the two numbers we can say 1000 people were cremated every
>6 hours, giving time for loading the bodies and recovering any ashes.
>This would come out to roughly 4 loads a day, 1000 people per load,
>4,000 a day, leaving 6,000 left over, daily. Not giving the Holocaust
>story any accomodation in the numbers the number of people left over
>beyond the system’s capacity would be 8,000.

>>This incinerator functioned ceaselessly day and night. After the
>>bodies had been burned, the prisoners belonging to the “working crews”
>>passed the ashes and remains of the bodies through a sieve.

> Now this conveniently accounts for why there has never been any
>evidence found that would support the story of millions being killed.

Unfortunately these literally thousands of tons of ashed had to
go some where. But still never found.

>> The parts
>>of the body that had burned but had preserved their natural shape were
>>put into a special mortar and pounded into flour. This was done in
>>order to hide the traces of the crimes committed. Later on the ashes
>>were buried in deep pits.
>>
>>During the first year of the existence of the “death camp”, the bodies
>>of the dead people were not burned but were buried.

> We can see the statement says the bodies were buried whole in the
>first year, so this would do away with anyone trying to say the 6,000
>to 8,000 left over bodies on a day by day occurance were not taken to
>other areas to be burned, buried or whatever. The next statement
>reiterates this.

>> Starting in 1943,
>>after the incinerator was built, the pits with the bodies buried in
>>them were opened up and the content burned.

> The story having the bodies dug up, burned and reburied would
>seem to explain why no evidence of such a vast undertaking exists. But
>this is not the case. The vast amount of ashes in the disrupted
>regolithic sequence of the soil would be subject to investigation and
>determination by soil analysis and comparison with adjacent land, even
>unto today. Especially since the whole thing was said to have taken
>place within 40 acres of land, making location of the graves sites
>easy, if any existed.
> It should be recalled that this interogation was supplied by the
>Soviets, who never did one single forensic test or probe to verify any
>of the allegations or testimony they presented.

>> All this work was done by
>>the prisoners waiting to die under the supervision of the Germans and
>>of us, the policemen.
>>
>>Question: What was the purpose of the so-called “infirmary”?
>>
>>Answer: The Germans gave the name of “infirmary” to that place in the
>>death camp where the sick and wounded prisoners were killed. The
>>”infirmary” covered a small area, in the center of which there was a
>>large pit six to eight meters in diameter and three meters deep. At
>>its bottom there always burned a fire into which the bodies were
>>thrown.

> Okay. The “infirmary” has been identified again as the place
>where the cremations took place. No other place is mentioned. Here we
>are given further details as to the fire pit (incineration facility).
>It was about 7 meters (21 feet) across and three meters (9 feet) deep.
>Just a little bigger than the area size of a average residential
>swimming pool.

>> The entire area of the “infirmary” was surrounded by a large
>>fence of barbed wire and branches. To the side of the fire, around the
>>corner of the fence, there was a sentry hut in which those who worked
>>in the “infirmary” rested and warmed themselves. Those included MATUS,
>>the German unterscharfu”hrer, whom we called the “doctor”, the
>>policeman-guard and five prisoners from the “working crew”. On their
>>sleeves they wore white bands with a red cross. When the trains
>>carrying the doomed prisoners came in, all those who could not move,
>>the ailing and the wounded were carried or assisted to the sentry hut
>>in the “infirmary” by the prisoners belonging to the working crews.
>>There the “infirmary attendants” quickly undressed them, brought them
>>to the fire in groups of several and sat them on the ground. MATUS
>>then approached them from behind and shot them one after the other
>>either with his pistol, his submachine gun or his rifle.

> Of course a little more about German brutality.

>> The dead rolled to the bottom of the pit to the fire.

> Okay, the dead “rolled” to the bottom of the pit, which would
>indicate it was sort of bowl shaped. To the “bottom” of the pit and
>thus to the “fire”? What kind of fire? Some logs burning at the
>bottom? A grate over burners fed by gas or oil? What happened to the
>”rails” that he said they laid the bodies on? Who knows? Will we find
>out the answer to all this by the end of this report? No.

>> We the guards who were on
>>duty in the “infirmary” also took part in the shooting. When all the
>>wounded and the sick had been killed, the “infirmary attendants” went
>>down into the pit and threw the dead into the fire.

> Wait a minute. The workers went down into the pit to throw the
>dead into the fires? But what about the “rails” or rolling the bodies
>down?

>> At least 100
>>prisoners were shot daily in the “infirmary”. It happened once that
>>among the ailing in an incoming train there were the father and mother
>>of one of the prisoners destined to die and belonging to a “working
>>crew”. Pushed by policemen, he carried his father to the “infirmary”
>>to be shot. In the “infirmary”, near the sentry hut, he and his father
>>fell to the ground. MATUS threw himself at him with a whip. He then
>>ran to the train and soon returned carrying his mother. After this he
>>became insane. The German shot him and then killed the father and the
>>mother.

> A special personal detail.

>>Question: What were the “working crews” of the “death camp”? How were
>>they assembled?
>>
>>Answer: As I have already testified, the servicing of the “death camp”
>>was carried out by special crews composed of those who had been
>>brought in for extermination. They camp comprised several “working
>>crews”, such as the “blue” working crew which unloaded the trains, the
>>”red” working crew which serviced the undressing places, the “black”
>>working crew which destroyed the bodies. There was also a special crew
>>that sorted out the belongings of the killed. Altogether the crews
>>numbered up to 1,500 persons. They also included some 15 women who did
>>the washing of clothes. Selection into the working crew took place
>>according to the need for their services – from among the prisoners
>>brought to the camp to be exterminated. Until the end of 1942 the
>>working crews were assembled every two-three days and correspondingly,
>>every two-three days they were all exterminated in the “infirmary”.

> Every three days the Germans exterminated 1,500 workers, in the
>infirmary? Considering Leleko’s previous statement “The
>”infirmary” covered a small area …” we might get the idea this would
>be a bit chaotic.

>>Their extermination was conducted in the following manner. After work,
>>around 10-11 p.m., a working crew of some 100-200 people was brought
>>to the “infirmary”. They were then taken into the place in batches of
>>five and shot there by the policemen and the Germans. Those belonging
>>to the working crews and who happened to be then near the barbed wire
>>fencing in the “infirmary” could hear how their comrades were being
>>killed and waited for their own death. Within one and one half or two
>>hours hundreds of people had been shot and were burning on the fire.
>>Working crews were also exterminated for having done something that
>>displeased the Germans.

> The former workers were taken into the infirmary 5 at a time.
>Okay. At least we don’t have to struggle trying to conceive a picture
>of them being in there all at once. But hold it. There were 1,500 all
>together that were exterminated 5 at a time which would mean the
>procedure would have had to repeat itself 300 times, taking place
>during a time span of “one to one and a half to two hours”, which
>would come out to one batch every 20 seconds for a one and a half hour
>duration. This must have been quite a scene, what with the other
>bodies being brought in to the infirmary from the gas chambers. Why
>did the Germans bring in the workers 5 at a time? The witness doesn’t
>say.

>>In September 1942, soon after I entered the “death camp” as they were
>>laying down bodies for burial in the large pits, the workers killed a
>>German who had shown particularly savage cruelty toward the prisoners.

> More German brutality.

>>Immediately the entire crew, numbering some 250 people, were grouped
>>at the bottom of the pit together with the bodies that they had not
>>yet had time to bury. The workers were executed right there over the
>>bodies of the dead prisoners. One after the other they were brought to
>>the end of the pit, laid on the dead bodies and their heads were cut
>>off or split up with an axe or wooden mallet. All 250 were killed in
>>this way.
>>
>>A similar case occurred soon after in the first section of the “death
>>camp”.
>>
>> During the evening inspection, a German conducting the
>>inspection, displeased with the workers because their answers were not
>>clear enough, started to beat them in turn and during this incident,
>>one of the workers hit him with a knife. The entire crew was
>>immediately surrounded by Germans and policemen. Every fifth worker
>>was killed with axes in full view of the entire assembly. Over 50
>>persons were thus hacked down.

> More German brutality.

>>It happened that the Germans learned that several among the working
>>crews were preparing a riot. These people, they were found to be ten
>>of them, were seized and hung by their feet. They suffered for five
>>hours and after they were dead they still hung on posts for three days
>>in the middle of the camp. It was enough for a worker not to look
>>pleasantly enough at a German, not to greet him, to be immediately
>>killed. Nevertheless, goaded on with whips and bullets, they went to
>>their death, led their kin, their relations to be shot, did everything
>>they were ordered to do. The Germans not only exterminated them, but
>>also used them for their own amusement. They forced them to stage
>>comical plays, they organized a large orchestra composed of prisoners
>>waiting to die, which played every day some light music under the
>>windows of the camp commander. They also staged amusements of a
>>different sort. One day the commander declared that he wanted to be
>>the guest at a wedding among the doomed prisoners. Right away a young
>>woman was picked out among the laundry women and a groom was found
>>among the workers. Both were dressed in appropriate fashion and
>>ordered to go through the complete wedding ritual. The “newlyweds”
>>were given a separate room. On the second day the commander of the
>>camp declared that the newlyweds must of necessity leave for a
>>”honeymoon trip”. Escorted by the guards and the Germans and also the
>>workers, the “groom” and the “bride” were brought to the “infirmary”
>>and shot and then thrown into the fire. Meanwhile the Germans ordered
>>the workers to shout “Happy Voyage”! and “See you soon!”
>>
>>Question: Name the figure for the number of people exterminated in the
>>Treblinka death camp?
>>
>>Answer: During my stay in the “death camp”, i.e. during the period
>>from September 1942 to September 1943, no less than two million were
>>exterminated there. Every day, with rare interruptions, two-three
>>trainloads arrived to the camp, each one bringing in some 3,500-4,000
>>doomed prisoners. On the average six to eight thousand were
>>exterminated daily. How many were exterminated in this camp during its
>>entire existence I do not know. [Transciption note: using this
>>man’s own figures, the figure of two million cannot be supported – his
>>figures suggest 1.2 to 1.4 million, or about double the generally
>>accepted death toll for Treblinka. knm. Aug. 5, 1994]

> Heres one of McVay’s “Transcription Notes”. McVay is pointing out
>the witnesses claim of two million as opposed to his statement of
>4,000 a day, times the year, 365 days, 1,400,000. Which figure, 1.2
>million or 1.4 million is double the “generally accepted” death toll,
>McVay doesn’t say. The one figure floating around is 900,000. Half of
>1.2 million would be 600,000 and for 1.4 million 700,000.
> What should one make out of this testimony. Is the witness prone
>to exaggeration or even downright lieing? McVay doesn’t seem to have a
>transcription comment on this. Oh well, 2,000,000 isn’t to far from
>600,000, 700,000 or 900,000, the Leleko figures being just two to
>three times the Holocaust story’s figures, which conforms to the
>general standard for Holocaust figures.

>>Question: What was the nationality of those who were exterminated?
>>
>>Answer: The crushing majority were of Jewish nationality. They were
>>brought to the “death camp” from Germany, Poland, Bulgaria and France.

> But of course. The Holocaust story is 99.999% a Jewish story.

>>Possibly from other countries also, but of this I do not know. Aside
>>from Jews, several hundred Gypsies and Poles were exterminated there.

> Okay 600,000, 700,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000 minus several hundred
>gives us more of a perspective on what Leleko means by a “crushing
>majority” were Jewish.
>>
>>This testimony has been written down from my words correctly, has been
>>read by me (signature) LELEKO

> Summary
> =======

> Considering how this witness is called a defendant, we should
>wonder what kind of proceedings these were. Especially how it was even
>before the war was completely over. Did the defendant have a lawyer?
>Who knows.
> Since the defendant was implicating other names in the testimony
>we wonder if his testimony wasn’t used in any trials for those named.
>It would be interesting to see what these other named people testified
>to. Maybe Nizkor (McVay) will post them if any exists.
> Who knows. Maybe a Leleko never even existed. After all, the
>Holocaust story refers to the Soviets as liars in the matter when its
>convenient, such as who was responsible for the gross exaggerations of
>the numbers said to have been killed at Auschwitz.
> One of the Almanac posts by McVay, titled “Treblinka’s ‘new and
>improved’ killing machine” describes a major renovation in the middle
>of the existing extermination process at the camp, including 10 new
>gas chambers, “although according to some sources the new building
>included only six gas chambers”, and Leleko didn’t mention any of it
>even though any dates given show he would have been there when any
>changes were made.
> Whatever, excluding any of the Almanac comment, and focusing just
>on this testimony our summary observations would have to recall that
>the “pit” which was only a bit larger than a average sized residental
>swimming pool could handle 1000 people at a time. That it had some
>kind of fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and night yet
>could be cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid on rails
>over it, dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it, that 6,000
>to 8,000 people were left over each day that the pit could not
>accommodate, that the prisoners bound for the camp were allowed to
>carry knives and razors, that the system was of such a nature that the
>Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by day basis and even
>contibuted to it, that people tore or bit ears and noses off, that
>after the crushing ordeal and tearing and/or biting ears and noses off
>the ones who survived were mostly pregnant women, that the prisoners
>knew about their fate, yet looked foward to the future, and that
>inspite of any McVay “Transcription Note” the witness claimed
>2,000,000 people were killed there in one year.

>>Interrogation made by: Investigator of the Fourth Department of the
>>SMERCH Directorate of Counterintelligence of the Second Belorussian
>>Front, Lietenant (signature) EPPEL’
>>
>>The Excerpt is true: First Deputy Procurator of the Crimean Region,
>>Senior Councillor of Justice. (KUPTSOV)

>
>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>> Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>> European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:44 PDT 1996
Article: 38612 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,tor.general,can.general,ont.general,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: ERNST ZUNDEL IN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:10:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 1:09:47 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38612 can.general:78244 ont.general:40868 alt.discrimination:47372

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Richard
>Sexton) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Greg Macdonald wrote:
>> >
>> >Rah rah rah. Seems more like he is a proponent of the idea that
>> >killing ‘only’ one million Jews is somehow forgivable, and that the
>> >only reason people are mad at the Nazis is because they have been told
>> >that more died than really did. Shhhhure. Great logic.
>>
>> Oh I don’t know. Would you rather be accused of killing
>> 12 poeple or one; but even if the conclusion is flawed
>> are the premises open to suspicion or not ? I mean
>> whats the deal, I’ve heard, 1, 4, 7, 12 million.
>>
>> Does anybody know or agree on the real answer ?

>Historians are general agreement that around 6 million Jews and 6 million
>non-Jews died in the Holocaust. So when somebody cites 6 million died in
>the Holocaust this generally means 6 million Jews. When 12 million is
>cited this means the total number of deaths.

>> I’ve also heard typhoid, rather than gas wiped out most
>> of the dachau camp, from a lady I know who
>> lived there since before the war.

>Yes, this was the case at Dachau, which was a concentration camp and not
>an extermination camp such as was Auschwitz. Death from privation,
>starvation, disease, and brutality were the main causes of death at
>Dachua. Comparitively very few were actually gassed to death at Dachau.
>(However, far more were transported to nearby Hartheim and gassed to death
>in the “euthanasia” facility there.)

But obviously the conditions and treatment of people at Auschwitz
must have been much better simply to have so many survivors even
with all of that gassing.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:45 PDT 1996
Article: 38623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:04:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:03:58 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
># Daniel Keren writes:

>## The Pattle et. al. paper states that when this kind of exhaust
>## was present, the main cause of death was CO, followed by irritants.

># Then you should have questioned the paper.

>Why? Because you claim it made an error? But you don’t know
>anything. You have no understanding of basic mathematics, nor
>of basic engineering, nor of basic science. Zero. Zilch.

Good sir, I have the degree and the working credentials. You
have nothing of the kind.

>You’re claiming the paper is wrong? Prove it. There was white
>smoke in the exhaust. This doesn’t mean it was the main cause of
>death. They give rather elaborate explanation to this. Why
>should I take the word of an ignorant clown like you, who offers
>no proof for his wild conjectures, over a well-documented
>scientific research?

It means it was oil vapor. It means the building was a fuel/air
bomb and a fire waiting to happen. Science does not prove
anything. Further you are completely incapable of judging the
quality of the research, so why would you describe it as such?

># And your buildings are still fuel/air bombs while in operation
># and fires waiting to start when not.

>Prove it.

Science does not prove. Science demonstrates. Go get a spray
can of oil and put a match to the spray. Spray it into a closed
container and drop in a match. From this latter you can expect
serious injuries if in fact you physically drop in a match.

># Why not just give up this explanation and agree that the steam
># story was pure fabrication?

>You’re just frustrated because you first claimed that diesels
>can’t produce white exhaust, and you had to admit you were
>wrong. So you’re trolling. Stop being such a gruber yung and
>a groise kvetcher.

Not only is the story pure fabrication but we have and OBC
certified true statement that the buildings were air tight and
thus the exhaust pressurized the rooms and thus raised the back
pressure to the diesels. So now to have the building have just
half the concentration of the actual exhaust the pressure on the
walls is some 14 lbs per square inch.

What did you say these building were made of? How did they keep
them air tight? And if not air tight what was the point of a
“hermetically” sealed door?

You technical incompetents don’t realize what kind of holes you
keep digging for yourselves with these stories. Maybe you really
have been honestly taken in by these stories rather than
conducting a deliberate campaign of fraud as it appears you are
doing.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:46 PDT 1996
Article: 38625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:13:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 1:12:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> ># You do realize you are destroying the entire image of the SS as a
>> ># fanatical organization dedicated to Der Feuhrer. You are now
>> ># creating an image where anything that happened was simply due to
>> ># undisciplined street thugs.
>>
>> >With an IQ of 163 (har-har), you are expected to do better. I never
>> >said the SS was run by street thugs. But it is true that quite a
>> >few of the SS-men and women of the lowest ranks, who served in
>> >Auschwitz-Birkenau, were low-life criminals and brutes.
>>
>> Who were not following orders. Right?

>REALITY CHECK: On the contrary, the rank-and-file SS in general, and at
>Auschwitz specifically, certainly did follow their orders. In the case of
>the institutional brutality in the concentration camp system, the program
>of brutality and dehumaization of prisoners was explicitly organized under
>Ecke, and at Auschwitz specifically by Ho”ss.

And of course by the prisoners themselves as in any other prison
system.

But now you are claiming these street criminals suddenly became
disciplined troops.

>> But this is an interesting claim. Would you care to post the police records
>> of a few of them while identifying the positions they held?

>REALITY CHECK: Not all the convicted criminals at Auschwitz (or the SS in
>general) were of low rank. Ho”ss, the Kommandant of Auschwitz, for
>example, was convicted of the murder od Parchimer Vehme and sentanced to
>ten years in prison. He was granted political amnesty in 1928, after
>serving four years.

No police records? Why did I expect that?

>Lest we forget:

It’s mantra time.

>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>Mark

>posted/NOT e-mailed as per Giwer’s request

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:46 PDT 1996
Article: 38631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:10:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 4:10:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>> EXCERPT
>>> From Interrogration of Defendant
>>>
>>>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL’, Investigator of the Fourth
>>>Department of the “SMERSH” Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>>>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant –
>>>
>>> LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>>> of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>>> citizen of the USSR.
>>
>> This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
>>might expect from a real hearing. It is more like some tale with a few
>>questions inserted. A question is asked and then Leleko goes off with
>>a extended comment and the interogator never poses any thing for
>>clarification. Even UFO story writers cover their stuff more
>>carefully.

>If this is all we had, then I would agree that there are some obscurities
>in this text. OTOH, a better witness to refute would be Suchomel, whose
>interview with Lanzmann covers most of the essentials cited here. Since
>you don’t even MENTION Suchomel, then I submit that your deconstruction of
>this text is basically dishonest. This ruins your credibility on this
>topic.

>There is a tendency to Either/Or the testimony. Either it is always all
>true, or else it is always all false. I can understand the motivations,
>and they need not be evil. But surely even you would not deny, Tom Moran,
>that many Jews were put to death just because they were Jews. As far as I
>am concerned, that is the point here.

There is always a question of the credibility of the witness. It
is not reasonable to say to ignore all the incredible stuff and
take the rest on face value.

And you will note there that in one case it is a defendent yet
later it is a written statement and, as always, no
crossexamination.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:47 PDT 1996
Article: 38632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:17:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319f1a2a.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:17:37 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Dene Bebbington <[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Moran wrote:
>> Here we have this testimony saying on a average day one large
>> train came into Treblinka, and on rarer occasions two trains,
>> whereas the testimony covered in the original post has Leleko
>> saying three trains a day came in on a average.

>Is this another denier tactic, cast aspersions on eyewitness
>testimony?? I note with interest that you didn’t deny the central
>point: that Jews were gassed at Treblinka.

Are you claiming all the contradictory statements of the
eyewitnesses are all true at the same time? And your “central
point” is that the only evidence for the gassing is based upon
these eyewitnesses who are telling fanciful stories.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:48 PDT 1996
Article: 38633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:00:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:00:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>>On Wed, 22 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>>> Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>>>
>>> >Matt,
>>>
>>> >I’ve been reading your expert postings and I thought you could use a lay
>>> >opinion:
>>>
>>> >Your pseudoscientific arguments
>>>
>>> How would you know? You have no scientific training and thus are
>>> incapable of judging.
>>>
>>> —–
>>>
>>>
>>Actually, this lay person (I assume we are your ultimate audience)
>>has been convinced on the pseudoscience of your possitions based on the
>>hard science that has been offered up against the assertions that you have
>>made. If you are to win over ‘the Volk’ then you had better
>>produce more facts about the challenges to your possitions than simply your
>>observation that the challengers are “asshole”s. At the end of every
>>thread your arguments have been left dangling.

>It’s good to get feedback concerning the Giwer-troll’s failures. Most
>of these types do not realize they are failing until someone comes
>forth and tells it like it is. 🙂

As you are equally incapable of judging, how would you know?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:48 PDT 1996
Article: 38634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:34:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:34:17 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Yes, you deliberately mislead other people and at no time did you
>>correct anyone who was citing you as the authority for saying
>>that HCN production was not possible. That is a fact.

>As usual, Mr. Giwer can provide no evidence for his claim.

I am certain it is all at Nizkor. Anyone interested can
certainly find it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:49 PDT 1996
Article: 38635 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:11:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 3:11:29 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser
>trial:

Are you going to prove this person existed one of these days?

>[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard
>Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71].
>—————————————————————
>After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the
>way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews
>the way they were convinced that they were really going to
>the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors
>were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians
>subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine
>which supplied the gas…

That is a very, very strange way to describe starting a diesel
engine.

>I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish
>color. Some of them had their closed, other’s eyes rolled. The
>bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a
>dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth…

Isn’t it interesting that he doesn’t mention the thick clouds of
oil vapor?

Don’t you think it curious that he sees the color characteristic
of cyanide rather than of CO poisoning?

This guy is amazing.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From mg[email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:50 PDT 1996
Article: 38638 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revise those damn museums
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:44:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:44:24 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[email protected] (M Huber) wrote:

> Artist Christine Jakob-Marcks won the design competition for
> the memorial with her proposal to build a huge tombstone-like
> structure inscribed with the names of the Jews who died in
> the Holocaust, but many supporters of the project, including
> Chancellor Kohl and his cabinet, voiced reservations about her
> design… A new choice is now to be made from the seven best
> submissions to the original competition.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> But only the names of Jews.

>Which has been firmly rejected, as the text itself concludes! That
>is, if the original source of this story can be depended upon for
>total accuracy and objectivity — which it cannot. Of course, Mr.
>giwer himself would have questioned the source if it said anything
>positive about Jews, but being that the text was negative, he accepts
>it implicitly.

It does not give the reason for the rejection. Also, you
apparently accept the story.

> What was that I was saying about the other six million
> only being a footnote?

>Mr. Giwer was repeating a specious lie, as he is doing again in this
>post. Mr. Giwer would never have heard of the “other six million” if
>not for the publicity from Jewish sources.

It appears you are claiming the media is controlled by Jews. I
have never made such a claim. Why would you?
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 38642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:37:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:36:57 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> Giwer) writes:
>>
>> >
>> >It is an amusing fantasy you folks are creating, that I was
>> >”retired.” Want to try to back up your claim?
>> >

>REALITY CHECK: Far from being a fantasy of others, the idea that Giwer is
>retired was put forward by none other than Giwer himself! Giwer, in
>article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

You reading comprehension has failed again, dumbshit.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 38643 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: My Complaint About Matt Giwer
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:39:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:39:14 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38643 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:8

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

> Not having the time to write my own rant, I had the computer
> write one for me…

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> So frigging stupid you can’t even write your own messages.

>Which only proves that Mr. Giwer is so “frigging” insecure, that he
>must reply to “stupid” posts in a desparate attempt to prove his
>”superiority” to himself!

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many survived, but
>how much attention he could get from insulting the memory of the dead.

Find a holocaust conference. The subject of this one is
revisionism.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 38645 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel exhaust that looks like steam
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:20:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 7:20:02 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Harry W. Mazal OBE wrote:

>> Dr. Keren is wasting his breath and energy trying to convince Mr.
>> Giwer with documented proof. Mr. Giwer is a professional (and thus a
>> sad and hopeless) chain-puller. No proof will ever convince Mr. Giwer
>> except that which is posted on a label as “90 Proof.”

>6 months from now, in another Newsgroup or even net, Matt Giwer will be
>able to say:

>”Because they refused to face the question, they came up with the story
>that I was a boozer.”

I can say that right now. It has been going on for months. This
is not the first.

If I remember correctly it was Danny Keren who first posted such
a thing. Whoever it was, I pointed out the consequences of
starting a rumor and it took whoever it was at least a week to
withdraw it. Now, as you see, the rumor stands.

But it is just a matter of time before they do the same to you if
you do not join them.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:53 PDT 1996
Article: 38651 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Anne Frank Died (was Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:39:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 6:39:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley wrote:

>On Tue, 21 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >First off, Anne Frank was a little over 15 when she was arrested, not
>> >14. The _selektions_ upon arrival at Auschwitz were very arbitrary; it’s
>> >not particularly noteworthy that she survived when she first arrived at
>> >Auschwitz the night of September 5-6, 1944. Incidentally, of the 1,019
>> >people who arived at Auschwitz on that transport, 549 of them, including
>> >all children under the age of 15, were gassed the same day (Sept. 15).
>> >Among the adults gassed was Herman Van Pels, who had been in hiding with
>> >the Franks. (_The Diary of Anne Frank, Critical Edition_, p. 50)
>>
>> When records of those gassed are requested we are told that there
>> were no records kept of those gassed immediately and therefore no
>> totals are possible. However, when convenient for the story
>> being told, we get numbers like 549 out of 1019 and even at least
>> one of the selection criteria, in this case age. In fact we even
>> a record by name of one of the people gassed.

>While I’ll admit I’m no expert on the methods used for determining
>_totals_ of Holocaust victims, in this case, here’s how the process
>worked: The German railroads kept records of the numbers of people they
>hauled (since the railroads were payed by the number carried), and so
>arrivals of particular transports can be pretty reliably tracked in terms
>of dates and numbers. Further, the Auschwitz registration books listed
>the numbers of people interned on arrival–in this case, 258 men and 212
>women out of a transport of 498 men, 442 women and 79 children. The
>rest, who were not registered, were gassed upon arrival, as was the
>customary procedure with arriving transports. The gassing of children
>under 15 was routine, as far as I know, and not limited to this transport.

>Hermann van Pels’ death on Sept. 6 was not listed specifically by the
>Auschwitz authorities, but was researched by the Netherlands Red Cross,
>which made extensive efforts to account for the deaths of all Dutch
>citizens under the Nazis. The “detective work” was fairly simple: it was
>known that Van Pels was aboard the transport from Westerbork (where he,
>his family, and the Franks were initially imprisoned after their arrest) to
>Auschwitz, and his name was _not_ among the people registered as prisoners
>when the transport arrived. Ergo, he was among those gassed. (see
>_Critical Edition_ p.50, and notes 7 and 8 on p. 57)

That is always sort of the way I would have thought it would
work. At least a head count on a manifest to see if any were
bribing their way to freedom or some such. But I have been
assured by the holohuggers here that there were no records kept
of those who were immediately gassed.

But if at even this late date they were keeping such detailed
records there should be no question as to how many were gassed,
in fact there should never have been a problem with the number.

>> >The _Critical Edition_ of the diary makes no mention of Anne and her
>> >sister being ill when they were evacuated from Auschwitz as the Germans
>> >attemprted to close down the camp in advance of the approaching Soviet
>> >Army. While the records of transports from Auschwitz do not list names
>> >of individual prisoners evacuated, it seems likely that Anne and Margot
>> >were among a transfer to Bergen-Belsen on October 28 1944 (_Critical
>> >Edition_ p. 52). The fact that both died sometime in late February or
>> >early March 1945 suggests that they did not
>> >contract typhus until *after* their arrival at Bergen-Belsen, which
>> >experienced a massive typhus epidemic near the *end* of the winter of
>> >1944-45 (_Critical Edition_ p. 54-55).
>>
>> >Mr. Giwer’s contention that Anne Frank was already sick when she was sent
>> >from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen is quite simply incorrect. If anyone
>> >else in this group has made that claim, they are similarly incorrect.
>>
>> Silence does not indicate anything in particular here. However,
>> healthy or ill, the use of transportation rather than the more
>> famous forced marches certainly indicates a desire to keep them
>> alive. So much the better even if she was healthy and still
>> transported rather than marched.

>Silence indicates a great deal, actually: if, as you contend, Anne Frank
>contracted typhus in Auschwitz in late October 1944, how could she have
>survived with the disease for 4 months before dying in late February or
>early March 1945?

>As for the Nazis’ “desire to keep them alive,” using cattle cars rather
>than forced marches to deliver prisoners to overcrowded, unsanitary camps
>where both housing and rations were insufficient to sustain life is
>hardly evidence of the Nazis’ concern for the prisoners’ well-being. You
>have elsewhere said that the Nazis deserve moral condemnation for placing
>prisoners in situations that led to their deaths, yet here you seem to be
>claiming that the mode of transport to Bergen-Belsen makes a difference.
>What difference does it make if the destination was plainly unliveable?

Here you are judging by end of the war conditions rather than the
normal conditions. If the end of the war conditions were the
normal conditions then rather clearly no one would have survived.
Our prisons are not pleasant places even with more than good
enough food and health care so lets not get into claiming I am
trying to make the camps look good.

What I am addressing is the constant claim that those who could
no longer work were killed. In fact that is was started this
particular digression. The very existence of infirmaries for the
inmates indicates the “can’t work are killed” stories are
nonsense.

No one is saying the entire affair was anything but totally
reprehensible but it is reasonable to attempt to find out exactly
what it was like and what happened without all of the clearly
identified distortions.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:53 PDT 1996
Article: 38655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Testifies About the Gassing of the Insane in Germany
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:10:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 7:09:49 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany
>[Quoted in “Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>Tribunals” – Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I,
>p. 876-886].
>——————————————————————–
>Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent
> by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what
> methods were the mercy deaths given?

>A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written
> formalities were concluded – I need not repeat these formalities
> here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files,
> etc. Then the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there
> killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).

>Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?

>A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen
> container, such as is used for welding – a hollow steel
> container.

>Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I
> suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the
> chambers?

>A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler’s
> basic requirement was that the killing should not only be
> painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the
> photographing of the patients, which was only done for
> scientific reasons, took place before they entered the
> chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby.
> Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were
> told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps
> 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.

This shoots the shit out of the ear and nose biting from the
other story. But then, they are both true.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 38664 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:49:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 7:48:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Lissa Valerian wrote:

>On Wed, 22 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> How very Jewish of you.

>How very Giwerish of you, Matt, to contribute such intelligent comments
>on your endless rambling… And just what purpose does it serve?

Must it serve a purpose you can comprehend?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 38665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:46:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 7:46:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>
>>>You’re assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>>>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher’bot, not a
>>>web page at all!
>>
>> Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
>>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.

> Is this meant to imply that all three tried to figure out how it was
>done and couldn’t? In that case remind me not to buy service from Combase
>should I ever find myself in Tampa. But maybe this is just a peculiar
>notion that one becomes an expert just by knowing experts.

You have not been to the site that runs the gopher to find out.
If you had you would have found that all requests are via email
plain language requests. You would have discovered more if you
had actually examined the site. And until you give signs of
having discovered those things, I will continue confidently in my
conclusion that you are making it up.

But then why not have a few copies of something shipped to this
newsgroup to demonstrate your skills? Would not want to waste
the bandwidth?

But as to the “expert” claim, I have made none. I have said that
I have participated in debugging the combase setup several times.
My trouble shooting experience has cut literal hours off of the
process.

>> When you get to that [site] you will find there is one way to get
>>information, email, plain english, not automated.
>>
>> That means that at best for the organization, their system was
>>hacked and the bot set. At worst for the organization it was a
>>member of the organization with root access.
>>
>> If you have another explanation I will be interested in reading
>>it.

> If you had asked nicely I might have told you for free. But since
>you’ve been such an ass about it, I will merely ask: how much is the
>information worth to you? If you wish a demonstration to prove I know
>what I’m talking about, that is still free. But remember, if you ask for
>the demonstration, it is no longer unsolicited email.

I never expected you would ever tell anyone.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:56 PDT 1996
Article: 38672 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:28:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 6:27:54 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>On Wed, 22 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>> >Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >>On Wed, 22 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> >>> Kimberley Ahlf wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >Matt,
>> >>>
>> >>> >I’ve been reading your expert postings and I thought you could use a lay
>> >>> >opinion:
>> >>>
>> >>> >Your pseudoscientific arguments
>> >>>
>> >>> How would you know? You have no scientific training and thus are
>> >>> incapable of judging.
>> >>>
>> >>> —–
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>Actually, this lay person (I assume we are your ultimate audience)
>> >>has been convinced on the pseudoscience of your possitions based on the
>> >>hard science that has been offered up against the assertions that you have
>> >>made. If you are to win over ‘the Volk’ then you had better
>> >>produce more facts about the challenges to your possitions than simply your
>> >>observation that the challengers are “asshole”s. At the end of every
>> >>thread your arguments have been left dangling.
>>
>> >It’s good to get feedback concerning the Giwer-troll’s failures. Most
>> >of these types do not realize they are failing until someone comes
>> >forth and tells it like it is. 🙂
>>
>> As you are equally incapable of judging, how would you know?
>>
>>
>>
>> —–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>>
>>
>>
>Matt,

>I think we’ve established my ignorance of the ‘facts,’ and also, I hope,
>my pliability to the force of argument. So would you, or any other
>proponents of the denial theory, care to address the remainder of my
>previous posting in hopes of educating me? I’ll rephrase my question
>below:

>If the Jews are really such an insidious monolith, an ‘International
>Zionist Conspiracy,’ why should we be so ashamed of their extermination?
>You seem willing to subject yourself to a lot of ridicule in attempting to
>discredit an extermination program which, as an extension of your positions,
>would seem quite virtuous.

>Which is it: Should we be ashamed for killing too many Jews or ashamed
>for letting too many of them live?

What in the hell are you talking about? You appear to be doing
nothing more than setting up your own strawman so that you can
shoot it down. You further appear to know nothing of what you
are talking about and it certainly has no relation to anything I
have said.

Do you have a point in doing this?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:57 PDT 1996
Article: 38673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:36:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 2:36:08 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:

>>
>> It is an amusing fantasy you folks are creating, that I was
>>”retired.” Want to try to back up your claim?
>>
>> How very Jewish of you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Number three in a series of comments which could be easily construed as
>anti-semitic.

So what? I was called that for saying things that could not be
construed as antisemitic. So I have nothing to gain or lose.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:57 PDT 1996
Article: 38676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer loses Sanity (Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work c
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:32:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 6:32:34 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>>># Do you know this Brack? Can you prove he ever existed?

>>>>>This is a new record, even for Giwer. This man has lost
>>>>>the little sanity he may have had.

>>>> Excuse me, good sir, but I must invoke the Gentile Rule which
>>>>requires you to prove everything about this person before his
>>>>”testimony” can be introduced into evidence.

>>>I’m not clear on the rule. Nor do I really care. You aren’t worth
>>>Danny’s time and he hasn’t yet figured that out. But, Mr. Giwer, the
>>>work of proving Mr. Brack has been done by past historians and by the
>>>respective courts. We do not have to reinvent the wheel in Brack’s
>>>case. If you want to somehow prove he doesn’t exist the ball is in
>>>your court.

>>>He’s a dunce Danny. He’s as smart as a rock. Only this rock hasn’t any
>>>potential force. It’ll never change position. It can’t.

>> You claim it was all done. Prove it. None of this crap about
>>”historians would not publish it if not researched.” You prove
>>it. That is the Gentile Rule. Got it yet?

>Read. The hilarious ball is in your court. Try and hit it.

Sorry, that is not the Gentilie Rule. You folks say it, you
prove it, every bit of it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:58 PDT 1996
Article: 38677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:02:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 5:02:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>
># Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
># hours to cremate one body,

>The opinion of cremation experts was posted here, that, if you’re only
>interested in disposing of the corpse, without having to worry about
>the appearance of the remains, much less than 2.5 hours are needed.

>But we all know you’re a pathological liar. You cannot post about
>anything whatsoever without lying. That’s also why you forged
>testimony of witnesses to the Holocaust, by including text they
>have never spoken.

>You must be very popular with the other Nazis. They must really
>admire a liar and forger of your caliber.

Yet we know from the other stories that it was the intention to
burn the bodies down to a fine powder by the references to the
mortar used to reduce the occasional large bones that were left.

So in fact we are talking about enough time to get to the point
where most of the bones have burned. [enter silly game by
unethical chemist]

Thus the objective was to get to the “fine ash” point but it
occasionally failed and large bones had to be ground separately.

Funny thing about those “occasional large bones left” stories is
that they never mention skulls which are the mostly likely to
remain and perhaps the only bone the average person can identify.

So you see, all we have to do is put a few truely true stories
together and we can discover so many things that have to be
explained all at the same time.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Wed May 22 23:50:59 PDT 1996
Article: 38678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:34:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 6:34:29 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 51 next month. But do not forget retired, youngster.
>>
>>> Why should anyone bother to remember a claim that could be made by
>>>anyone on a psychiatric disability pension?
>>
>> Tired of trying to spread the drinking story and need another?
>>Good try. Lets see how many times you have to repeat it before
>>others start taking it as true. You must be Jewish to do such a
>>think.

> I am quite curious to know why one must be Jewish to recognize that
>there are many possible reasons for early retirement which reflect no
>credit upon the retiree (such as the example I gave). For this reason I
>find the simple fact of early retirement not particularly noteworthy.
>Your mileage may vary, of course.

You suggested a particularly defamatory reason. You really must
be very Jewish to do such a thing.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 38692 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:30:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 6:30:15 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Harry W. Mazal OBE) wrote:

>>>On Thu, 16 May 96 09:34:08 GMT, Alexander Baron
>>> wrote:

>>>>In article <[email protected]>

>>>[text deleted]

>>>>[Text deleted for brevity] … I don’t dispute that many Jews lost relatives in
>>>>the Second World War, but the war claimed probably over 50 million lives, most of
>>>>them in or near Europe, and as there were many Jews in Europe this is one
>>>>reason. Unlike certain people – and contrary to the claims of others – I have
>>>>no intention of mocking any victims, but I don’t see what is so special about
>>>>Jewish suffering.

>>>Mr. Baron’s most extraordinary observations reveal his manly
>>>qualities. Claiming that “…Jews lost relatives…” as a result of
>>>the Second World War shows the level of cynicism which this sad,
>>>pathetic man has reached. He does not acknowledge the fact that Jews
>>>were killed _because_ they were Jews; that age, gender or occupation
>>>made no difference to Mr. Baron’s beloved Nazis; and equally
>>>pertinent, that all of the Jews killed in the Death Camps were
>>>civilian non-combattants. What is special about Jewish suffering is
>>>that Jews, to the exclusion of all other ethnic groups except for the
>>>Gypsies, were selected for extermination. War is hell, but there was
>>>no excuse for genocide.

>> And gays were killed merely because they were gay and the
>>handicapped because they were handicapped and the gypsies because
>>they were gypsies and Slavs because they were Slavs. Age, gender
>>or occupation did not matter for them either. They were also
>>civilian non-combatants.

>> In fact there is nothing unique about the Jews in this matter.
>>But you still have the mindset that the Jews were in some manner
>>unique. That only shows you what constant repetition will do.

>You are right. The only problem is that that is where most of the
>denial concerns are. They deny the Jewish aspect. That is the only
>uniqueness here, Giwer.

You will have to present evidence of your bogeyman before I am
interested in discussing it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38698 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:47:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]oe.cc.emory.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Kimberley Ahlf wrote:

>Matt,

>Explain this item to me further:

>> o Physical condition
>> Although there is question as to the
>> physical conditions in the camps, were they in
>> fact as bad as commonly recounted then these
>> people were on the point of starvation and
>> that common induces psychosis particularly if
>> it has been long term.

>It appears that you are saying:

> If they were as severely starved as they claim,
> Then they were made psychotic by the starvation and
> Then they made false claims about the severity of the starvation

It is one of only three possibilities and the first two would
cover anyone well fed and in the best of health. You are not
raising any issue of interest here.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:17 PDT 1996
Article: 38711 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:09:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran wrote:

># The times offered by Keren in the past have been from 40% of the
># HCN lost in the first half hour to 50%.

>You are, plain and simple, a pathological liar. I never gave 50%
>as an upper bound. You simply invented this and posted.

>You just can’t post anything, about any topic whatsoever, without
>lying.

>But, have no fear. The other blithering Nazi fools will only value
>you more because you lie so much.

We have gotten everything from all in 10 minutes to 40% in a half
hour WITHOUT specification of temperature or carrier material.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 38718 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 06:28:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:38718 soc.culture.jewish:52861 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20682 soc.culture.israel:34660

[email protected] (Dan Purdy) wrote:

>Roger Froikin ([email protected]) wrote:

>> > And beyond that NONE of this, property ownership, has the
>> > slightest thing to do with creating a political entity of a
>> > nation. Not one bit of it applies in the least. Property
>> > ownership has nothing to do with the existence of Israel, period.

>> Oh, I see. You also don’t read very well. If you can show where anyone
>> referred to property ownership, please do. I’m talking about a land
>> having a unique national identity with one nation.

>At this point I feel I have to say something. Land is land is land.
>Physical earth has no unique identity. What does possess identity is
>nations. Nations can percieve one specific section of physical earth to
>have special relevance to their historic and cultural roots. It is quite
>understandable that the land that compromised the former kingdom of Israel
>will hold some special significance to the Jewish nation. What I think
>many people have a problem with is people claiming ownership over land
>that they possessed almost 2000 years ago. If all nations (nations used
>in the political science sense) followed the same path, the political map
>would be in upheaval and the present state system would collapse.
>Following the same logic, the Irish should have claim to Britain (the
>celts originally possessed it, I think the Picts are lost to the mists of
>time), Native Americans would own all of the United States and Canada.
>Most of Western Europe should be liberated from the Germanic hordes who
>invaded in the Great Migrations following this logic. Israel (the
>physical land) holds special significance to Jews but the existence of a
>kingdom on this site almost 2000 years ago is not sufficent reason for
>their claim. Look to the present system and the modern state of Israel
>for the claim on this land. Arguing that the Bible constitutes a deed is
>foolhardy and should not be used in a reasoned modern discussion.

You are wasting the bandwidth. These people are as closeminded
as creationists.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:19 PDT 1996
Article: 38719 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Does It Again (Re: Picture File: SS-Women in Belsen Camp)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 06:41:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt
>> >Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ># You do realize you are destroying the entire image of the SS as a
>> >> ># fanatical organization dedicated to Der Feuhrer. You are now
>> >> ># creating an image where anything that happened was simply due to
>> >> ># undisciplined street thugs.
>> >>
>> >> >With an IQ of 163 (har-har), you are expected to do better. I never
>> >> >said the SS was run by street thugs. But it is true that quite a
>> >> >few of the SS-men and women of the lowest ranks, who served in
>> >> >Auschwitz-Birkenau, were low-life criminals and brutes.
>> >>
>> >> Who were not following orders. Right?
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: On the contrary, the rank-and-file SS in general, and at
>> >Auschwitz specifically, certainly did follow their orders. In the case of
>> >the institutional brutality in the concentration camp system, the program
>> >of brutality and dehumaization of prisoners was explicitly organized under
>> >Ecke, and at Auschwitz specifically by Ho”ss.
>>
>> And of course by the prisoners themselves as in any other prison system.
>>
> REALITY CHECK: Giwer, seemingly unable to tell the difference between
>those who gave the orders and those who carried them out, assumes it was
>the prisoners and not the SS authorities who emplaced the system of
>orgnized brutality (not to mention mass urder) at the camps. Why is that?
>Could Giwer, perhaps, has ulterior motives for trying to white-wash the SS
>for the atrocities they condoned and ordered?

You appear to have never heard of Sonderkommandos. Do you really
think their only crimes were participation in the extermination
of their own people? Of course they were all forgiven rather
than being given the torch, pitchfork and rope routine.

Why is it you would not admit Jewish complicity in Jewish
destruction when it has been so well documented by the
holohuggers in this conference? What kind of people were they?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 38733 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:59:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> It is unfortunate but true that anything I post is automatically
> denied particularly when true.

>It is even more unfortunate that Mr. Giwer has never, ever provided a
>source for any of his erroneous assertions, particularly when claiming
>they are true! On the other hand, sources are always provided when
>he is caught in one of his numerous lies, but all he does is claim
>that he is under unfair attack, as above.

> But then, even without typhus, it is not clear what kind of
> labor skills a 14 year old would have had to have been kept
> alive in the first place.

>Nothing is ever “clear” to Mr. Giwer’s muddied mind! But the Nazis
>did not require “skilled” labor. Unskilled labor was enough,
>especially as the idea was to work the laborers to death.

Unfortunately this is contrary to the claims of the holohuggers,
that selection was made upon the basis of labor skills. In that
regard it is unclear why any women were kept alive at all as in
that time and culture it is unclear was talent women might have
other than hausfrauen.

Was there really that much sewing going on in the camp?

> And of course she was not the youngest child in the camps.
> Jewish children are such skilled laborers you realize.

>Mr. Giwer shows his true colors! He laments the Nazis’ apparent
>leniency in allowing Jewish teenagers to be worked to death
>instead of being gassed immediately upon arrival with their parents!

True colors? You certainly have a way with words. All I am
pointing out is what you now “deny” that there was a selection
for skilled laborers.

>This gratuitous insult only proves the truth of my analysis of Mr.
>Giwer’s latest sig:

> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

>For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many survived, but
>how much attention he could get from insulting the memory of the dead.

Go find a holocaust conference. This is for revisionism.
—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 38737 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Proof is for Goyim
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 04:00:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> Another imaginary Nazi made up the holohuggers.

>>>Prove that the work already done is false. Get to it Giwer, show the
>>>folks in this newsgroup that you aren’t a total waste of energy. Show
>>>them that you really aren’t a meddler. I dare challenge you to do
>>>this.

>> Prove there was any work done in the first place. This is the
>>Gentile Rule in action.

>It’s difficult when you do not read the material in the first place.
>You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. That
>applies here.

Follow the Gentile Rule and prove it.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:21 PDT 1996
Article: 38738 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer’s eagle eye strikes again!
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 04:10:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 9:09:54 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>> From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
>>>[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>>>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 221-222]
>>>————————————————————————
>>
>> Would it have been too hard for you to identify the person
>>answering the questions and give the circumstances under which he
>>was answering questions?

> Would it be too hard for you to learn to read and understand plain
>English? Please look carefully four lines above your own first sentence.
>To put it another way, carefully study the very first line of Dr. Keren’s
>text that you quoted. Now, what part of “the interrogation of Adolf
>Eichmann” don’t you understand?

> At the very best, you need to consult an ophthalmologist as soon as
>possible. Have someone drive you or take a taxi.

> Does anyone wish to bet that rather than admit he made yet another
>stupid error (is anyone keeping score?), Mr. Giwer will accuse me of
>editing the post?

And from what you deleted …

Eichmann could not stand to look at what was happening. He
personally followed a truck. He was shocked by what he saw. He
returned and reported to another person. Eichmann, right?

Fine with me, it WAS Eichmann. And Eichmann only learned about
the gassing vans on a visit to some camp or other. So why was he
hung when he was clearly an underling and had no part in ordering
what was happening?

You obviously knew you were going to be accused of this because
your claim that it was in fact Eichmann’s own testimony
exonerates him in what you deleted.

You appear to be commenting upon Israeli justice, demonstrating
that they hung an innocent man.

You holohuggers need to get a grip. You are killing your own
case with every post.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:22 PDT 1996
Article: 38739 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers’
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 04:03:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 11:03:20 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish
>>>color. Some of them had their closed, other’s eyes rolled. The
>>>bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a
>>>dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth…

>> Don’t you think it curious that he sees the color characteristic
>>of cyanide rather than of CO poisoning?

>Is Mr. Giwer arguing that cyanosis is not a symptom of CO poisoning?
>OSHA seems to disagree, but perhaps they’re lying:

>OSHA Chemicals>> Carbon Monoxide
>
> NM Carbon Monoxide
> SYN CO; Diesel Exhaust Component
> IMIS 0560
> CAS 630-08-0
> NIOSH RTECS FG3500000
> DOT 1016 18
> DESC Colorless, odorless gas.
> MW: 28 BP: -313 F VP: >1 atm MP: -326
> F
> INCOM Strong oxidizers
> OSHA 50 ppm, 55 mg/m3
> TLV 25 ppm, 29 mg/m3 TWA
> REL 35 ppm 8 hr TWA; 200 ppm Ceiling
> SYMP T Headaches; tachypnea; nausea; weakness, dizziness, confusion,
> halucinations; cyanosis; depressed, ST segment of electrocardiogram;
> angina; syncope
> HLTH Asphyxiation, Chemical anoxia (HE17)
> ORG CVS, lungs, blood, CNS
> SLC1 MEDIA: Direct Reading Passive Monitor (Draeger Datalogger, 0-999ppm)
> MAX T: 480 minutes
> ANL 1: Direct Reading
> . REF: 2 (OSHA ID-209) SAE: 0.07 CLASS: Fully Validated
> MEDIA: Five Layer Aluminized Gas Sampling Bag (5 Liter)
> MAX V: 5.0 Liters MAX F: 0.05 L/Min (TWA)
> ANL 1: Gas Chromatography; GC/DID
> REF: 2 (OSHA ID-210) SAE: 0.04 CLASS: Fully Validated
> SAM2 DET. TUBE Available from OSHA Cincinnati Lab: Carbon
> . Monoxide 4-1La
> DET. TUBE (low): Kitagawa, 106S, 10-250 ppm
> . Sensidyne, 1La, 8-1000 ppm
> . Kitagawa, 100, 5-1000 ppm
> . Kitagawa, 106SA, 5-1000 ppm
> DET. TUBE (high):Draeger, CH20601, 10-3000 ppm
> . MSA, 487334, 10-3000 ppm
> . Sensidyne, 1L, 5-2000 ppm
> . Kitagawa, 106SH, 0.1-0.2%
> MIRAN 1A ∧ 1B: MIN. Det. Con. 2.1 ppm at 4.7 um
> MIRAN 103: Range 100 ppm at 4.61 um
> WIPE No
> DIV I
> BRANCH SE
>.

Argue with this guy and Keren who swears by him. Pinkish. Do
you have a problem with this eyewitness? Just say so. One of
them is lying.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Dr. Leidig Testifies About a Gassing in Sachsenhausen
From: [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:23:39 GMT

Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first
gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW’s were murdered
[Quoted in “Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
Use of Poison Gas”, edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
——————————————————————-
I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were
looking
for a different way of killing them. We then went to another
place,
where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I
can
still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could
see
that the people were dead. The van was opened. Some bodies fell
out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look
which
is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.

-Danny Keren.


Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

-Lu Xun.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Thu May 23 07:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 38743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Leidig Testifies About a Gassing in Sachsenhausen
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:01:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 22 7:01:40 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first
>gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW’s were murdered
>[Quoted in “Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison Gas”, edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
>——————————————————————-
>I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
>Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking
>for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place,
>where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can
>still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
>window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see
>that the people were dead. The van was opened. Some bodies fell
>out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
>chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which
>is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.

>

At least this guy got the right color. But then, all of the
other standard questions still apply.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.