From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:56 PDT 1996
Article: 36101 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 06:47:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 154
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: x.netcom.com>
>: >: <[email protected]>
>: >:
>: >: <[email protected]>
>: >:
>: >: <[email protected].
>:
>: >: com>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >: >>
>: >: >> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >: >> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: >: >>
>: >: >> >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >: >> >>
>: >: >>
>: >:
>: >: >[snip]
>: >:
>: >: >> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer’s “objection” is specious and irrelevent. The fact
>: >: >> >remains that 500 lbs. was standard weight of the bombs dropped.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> Your ignorance of engineering notwithstanding there was no such
>: >: >> thing as a standard. There was most certainly a most common size
>: >: >> which could be calculated in at least two ways, either as
>: >: >> greatest number or greatest weight of explosive.
>: >:
>: >: >QUIBLING OVER SEMANTICS ALERT: Indeed. And this “most common size” of bomb
>: >: >dropped by USAAF heavy bombers was 500 lb. A fact, I believe, noted in the
>: >: >_United States Strategic Bombing Survey_ in regards to that most of the
>: >: >bombs dropped during the strategic bombing of Germany did not have enough
>: >: >destructive power to damage or destroy German heavy machine tools without
>: >: >a direct hit.
>: >:
>: >: You refuse to answer questions and yet you accuse me. What
>: >: reason, other than hypocrisy is there for your behavior?
>: >:
>: >: Beyond that, you only display your ignorance of engineering and
>: >: air warfare.
>: >:
>: >: So what is your point?
>:
>: >That the most common size of bomb dropped was 500 lb. What’s yours, other
>: >than ad hominem attacks?
>:
>: That this Alstine clown is dancing all around the issue that was
>: raised by continuing to repeat his 500 lb claim. And my point is
>: attempting to get back to the issue that was raised.
>Which was that of heavy bombers in the hands of certain governments. So
>tell us: is the T-16 a heavy bomber?
Just how did T-16 bombers in the middle east become a subject of
discussion regarding the design criteria for bomb shelters in WW
II?
>: >: >> However, neither would mititgate against designing for 1000
>: >: >> pounder which were not uncommon. Some militarian historian may
>: >: >> better fill in the numbers.
>: >:
>: >: >REALITY CHECK: It was never claimed that ONLY 500 lb bombs were dropped.
>: >: >For instance, 1,000 lb. “blockbuster” bombs were used against German
>: >: >sub-pens.
>: >:
>: >: Read your “most common” claim above as the attempted deception it
>: >: was.
>:
>: >Is it wrong? No? Then what’s the deception?
>:
>: By harping on one number he is attempting to imply that would be
>: the engineering design criteria.
>:
>”HArping” on the number? It’s a good explanaiton for the criteria — can
>you prove it’s not what it was based on? If not, then your supposition is
>in no way superior to his.
Prove a negative? Even mathematicians who are into proving
things have maybe three or four proofs of negatives and most
still consider it dubious. The most famous of which is the four
color map proof. So what do you mean, “prove it is not”? You
set an impossible task and then claim victory upon my failure to
do so.
You are using a very common creationist ploy.
>: I have further pointed out the roof
>: itself is not a necessary feature of either a morgue or gas
>: chamber but is a feature of a bomb shelter.
>:
>: And of course you have notice he has refused to address the roof
>: construction.
>:
>I missed this assertion. WHy would the roof be unnecessary, did you
>claim?
I stated that there is no reason for a more expensive roof when
the other two structures in the complex have the cheaper peaked
wooden roof. I have asked him to suggest why either a morgue or
a gas chamber would need a more expensive roof. Of course he
refuses to answer.
Clearly if the underground part were originally for the lower
temperature for a morgue then this flat roof rebar concrete roof
does not permit insulation negating some of the benefits.
>: >: >> As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
>: >: >> Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
>: >: >> countries in the middle east.
>: >:
>: >: >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, if he would have pulled his head from his ass, would
>: >: >have that I’ve never claimed Syria, or any other country in the Middle
>: >: >East had heavy bombers. What I HAVE claimed is that Giwer is a specious
>: >: >incompetant to not realize that Syrian combat aircraft can carry bombs and
>: >: >that Syrian battlefield missle could easily reach Israel!
>: >:
>: >: I stated specifically, HEAVY BOMBERS, you came back with the
>: >: Tupelov 16 which is barely above a fighter in bomb loadout
>: >: capabilities. You are again intending deception just as one of
>: >: our resident chemists. You lack integrity, schoolboy.
>:
>: >Pot.Kettle.Black.
>:
>: I do not see you questioning him.
>:
>All I’ve tried to do is get you to state explicitly whether or not the
>T-16 is or is not a heavy bomber, so that you can’t claim you never said
>it was/wasn’t later.
They were not involved in the design criteria of German WW II
bomb shelters.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36102 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GRYNSPAN posting Jew’s addresses to roll in Subject headers
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 06:50:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Thu, 09 May 1996 22:38:25 GMT, [email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote
>and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!Oh, shit. Tell me it ain’t so. Muy Grossdick is here? I guess I
>!should have expected it, though. Where else would you find him but in
>!a newsgroup called alt.revisionism.
>Oh no. The spawn of Al Gentile! Show yer stuff Su…
>Still fixated on my dick I see.
She is a trained microbiologist.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36103 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 06:51:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31861a38[email protected]> <8[email protected]> <4mljos[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >Alexander Baron
>: >: >>A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>: >: >>Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions –
>: >: >>Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>: >: >>given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.
>: >:
>: >: > So when were UFO pilots tried and found guilty of abductions? There
>: >: >is *significantly more* evidence for the Holocaust happening than UFO
>: >: >abductions. Look to Nizkor for references.
>: >:
>: >: One was tried on a Babylon 5 episode but the verdict was not
>: >: shown.
>: >:
>: >: Beyond that there hardly more evidence than was presente on the
>: >: episode for gassing.
>: >:
>: >: But then I have been advised that “look to Nizkor” is
>: >: unacceptable without the specific URLs attached.
>: >:
>: >: Rest assured that you will not be so advised.
>:
>: >Let me guess — that would be because he’s not referring to anything
>: >specific, el Dorko. How can he point to a URL for that. Do you want him
>: >to list all the URLs for that?
>:
>: Why do you believe he is incapable of answering for himself?
>Why did you answer for Les Griswold the other day?
>Why is the concept of a public forum so difficult for you?
If you desire to imitate me, at least learn to do it right.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36104 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: news flash
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 07:01:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Hizbollah have taken over the lobby of the Tel Aviv Hilton.
Air strikes have been called in.
Details at 11.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:59 PDT 1996
Article: 36105 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel’s arsenal (was: Israle “fighting to win”)
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 07:04:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mfhb3$[email protected]> <83148538[email protected]> <4mp7dd$o[email protected]> <83166[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
>Caesar ([email protected]) writes:
>(snip)
>> US military assistance is very helpful to Israel, but Israel
>> itself already has much more powerful and effective weapons
>> than its opponents
>Provided by whom?
>> Israel also has nuclear weapons (unlike its opponents), so any state such as
>> Syria, if it tried to launch an invasion of Israel would soon find its
>> capital city anihilated.
>Yes, we can thank Johnathan “Stealing nuke secrets from the U.S. is my
>racial obligation” Pollard for that.
You miss the point. Pollard did it for pay. Israel is trying to
get him released for race.
But then it appears Israel believes race is more important than
an oath even when it is only for money.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:57:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36107 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 07:49:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> He talks about a process he could not have witnessed unless he
>> was in the camp when it was in operation. He doesn’t even couch
>> it as “I was told that …” words.
> Are you claiming that you have read his report? If not, your claim is
>specious. And please don’t pull the usual Giwer bullshit that you are “just
>responding to what has been posted.” The text of the report has not been
>posted.
So post the entirety and the defense testimony for a change. You
folks are the one’s posting the testimony. When there are
problems with completeness, post the rest.
>> Where do you see evidence was the question. And regardless of
>> what kind of witness he was, it is still hearsay. It is no
>> different that a prosecution witness reciting a detailed of the
>> murders as though he had witnessed OJ committing them.
> The question is, Giwer, are you stating that an expert cannot use
>hearsay to arrive at his conclusions?
I am stating that the part of his conclusion AS POSTED, that is
based upon hearsay, is hearsay and not personal knowledge. As a
forensic expert he could use his autopsey results and then
speculate upon the probable manner in which that death occurred.
What is posted goes far beyond that. Given that he did have
forensic evidence of death from cyanide then, absent other
physical evidence, state only death from cyanide.
If there were other physical signs upon the body then he could
hypothesize upon the connection between those physical signs and
the pathological data. He can certainly say things like, “from
my experience” and the like. He certainly can not introduce
detailed descriptions of other people that are not supported by
the evidence.
Since people appear to know something about the OJ case, it would
be like the pathologist in that case who testified as I describe
here. It would be like him saying that because he had been told
about that times that people saw OJ that night, that what he
found in the cuts indicated that OJ was guilty.
>> And upon what basis did he form that opinion?
> That is in his report.
Post it, don’t claim it.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:57:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36109 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 04:40:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>On Ceasar’s inability to differentiate between terrorists
>masquerading as civilians or religious clerics and between
>civilians who get blown up by the “holy missions” of the
>terrorists:
Those kids in the ambulance were wired with explosives?
>>>For some reason, you are remarkably resistant to understanding
>>>these differences. I wonder why.
>>It is difficult to see why you continue to ignore that Israel is
>>the occupying nation in this case. If it would leave the
>>resistance movement’s activities would cease.
>Errr, ummmm, about 90% of Syria is occupied by Syrian forces.
I would have though 100%.
>Some 40,000 troops. Been there for years. President Assad
>of Syria TELLS Beirut what to say. Which is why they both
>have identical voting records now.
And the are only there because in 1982 Israel deliberated
destabilized the entire country trying install a Marianist as
dictator. The years of fighting in Beirut, an abortive US
attempt to make a peace, Syria moving in to keep the peace is all
the consequence of the actions of Israel.
Don’t gripe about it. Israel caused it.
>By contrast, Israel’s security zone is only a few miles wide.
>The -ISRAEL- Defense Forces in Lebanon are few and their support
>there comes from the South -LEBANESE- Army, which is actually
>in control in the South.
And Eastern Europe was Russia’s buffer zone. So? It is a
military occupation.
>So who is occupying Lebanon? Should we get Ross Perot to draw
>a chart so that even YOU can figure it out, Giwer?
Israel is occupying southern Lebanon. Syria is keeping peace in
the rest of it. And all because of the actions of Israel.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:57:01 PDT 1996
Article: 36121 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 08:12:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>If the desire for revenge against an organization with which
>>Israel is now at peace is going to justify all future actions
>>against anyone there is no hope for peace.
>1) Israel does not attack PLO positions.
About time.
>2) Palestineans fighters continue to mount terrorist attacks
> against Israeli civilians.
Then why are they not in the news?
>3) Revenge is a very Middle Eastern emotion, though it is
> uncommon among Jews. Contrast the actions of victorious
> Arab armies and the contrast with the IDF.
Middle Eastern Jews do not have a Middle Eastern emotion. How
strange. At least be honest about Jews for a change and stop
pretending they are “forgive your enemy” Christians. Revenge?
When you agree the PM is lying through his teeth to cause this
attack just to get reelected? Or does he only lie in certain
narrow areas?
>4) The continued rantings of “His Excellency” Yasser Arafat
> about “Jihad until the very last little boy and girl”
> together with the ravings of Islamic clerics bent on
> “eternal Jihad” indeed fit in with your comment:
> “there is no hope for peace”. But if the peace doesn’t
> arrive, make sure you know which side is to blame.
It is over as you know. And as anyone claiming knowledge of the
Middle East knows, exaggerated and flowery language is a
trademark of the speech pattern, such as the mother of all wars.
Even eternal jihads don’t last forever.
> (Q: A group called Peace Now exists in the Middle East.
> In which country?
> Q: How many demonstrations for peace have been held in
> the Arab world in the past 2 years? 20 years? 200 years?)
Who many of your “all muslims are Arab” countries have signed and
honored peace agreements with Israel in the past 50 years? But
you do not trust them because they are Muslims.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:57:02 PDT 1996
Article: 36124 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:06:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 241
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> >>
>>
>[snip]
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer’s “objection” is specious and irrelevent. The fact
>> >remains that 500 lbs. was standard weight of the bombs dropped.
>>
>> Your ignorance of engineering notwithstanding there was no such
>> thing as a standard. There was most certainly a most common size
>> which could be calculated in at least two ways, either as
>> greatest number or greatest weight of explosive.
>QUIBLING OVER SEMANTICS ALERT: Indeed. And this “most common size” of bomb
>dropped by USAAF heavy bombers was 500 lb. A fact, I believe, noted in the
>_United States Strategic Bombing Survey_ in regards to that most of the
>bombs dropped during the strategic bombing of Germany did not have enough
>destructive power to damage or destroy German heavy machine tools without
>a direct hit.
You refuse to answer questions and yet you accuse me. What
reason, other than hypocrisy is there for your behavior?
Beyond that, you only display your ignorance of engineering and
air warfare.
So what is your point?
>> However, neither would mititgate against designing for 1000
>> pounder which were not uncommon. Some militarian historian may
>> better fill in the numbers.
>REALITY CHECK: It was never claimed that ONLY 500 lb bombs were dropped.
>For instance, 1,000 lb. “blockbuster” bombs were used against German
>sub-pens.
Read your “most common” claim above as the attempted deception it
was.
>> It is your task to explain why a shelter would be designed for a
>> lower weight than the weight that was the design maximum of
>> allied bombers.
>EGOTISTICAL PAUPACY ALERT: On the contrary, as Giwer speciously claims,
>against all the available evidence, that the L.Kellers of Kremas II and
>III were “bomb shelters” and not homicidal gas chambers, it is up to HIM
>to prove they were “bomb shelters.” A proof that must take into
>consideration (which Giwer does NOT) and explain all the evidence that
>indicates that they were, in fact, homicidal bomb shelters!
>This, of course, is something Giwer refuses to do because he can’t!
You lie again. I have merely claimed that the design features
ahve more in common with air raid shelters than either morgues or
gas chambers. You on the other hand REFUSE to answer any
question regarding your claim.
>[snip]
Of course.
>> As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
>> Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
>> countries in the middle east.
>REALITY CHECK: Giwer, if he would have pulled his head from his ass, would
>have that I’ve never claimed Syria, or any other country in the Middle
>East had heavy bombers. What I HAVE claimed is that Giwer is a specious
>incompetant to not realize that Syrian combat aircraft can carry bombs and
>that Syrian battlefield missle could easily reach Israel!
I stated specifically, HEAVY BOMBERS, you came back with the
Tupelov 16 which is barely above a fighter in bomb loadout
capabilities. You are again intending deception just as one of
our resident chemists. You lack integrity, schoolboy.
>> Russia and the US may have played off their clients against each other but
>> they were not stupid about it. The closest you will find are fighters that
>> can be configured for a bombing role. The last I heard only Israel had them
>> as AIPAC objects to their being sold to the Saudis.
>GIWER SHOOTS SELF-IN-FOOT ALERT: Giwer, confirming my assertion that
>Sryia, a long-time enemy of Israel, does indeed have comabt aircraft that
>could drop bombs on Israel.
As I said, heavy bombers, in a loadout range sufficient to
salvage your pathethic claim that Israel was ever in danger of
1000 lb bombs, stupid shit.
>[snip]
Of course.
>> As you should know did you not have your head up your ass the
>> “weights” in the equivalent explosive value of a standard
>> explosive. It has no relation to the actual weight weight of
>> either the bomb or the explosive even in WW II. A 1000 pounder
>> is still a thousand pounder.
>GIWER HEAD-UP-ASS ALERT #1: Giwer, of course, is quite wrong in his claim.
>The requirements of combat aircraft, as they have a limited ordanance
>capacity, has continually pushed limits of explosives development to
>provide greater destructive power while minimizing the weight and size of
>ordanance.
>Therefore, in this regard a MK-83 1,000 lb. GP bomb is NOT the equivalent
>of a circa WWII 1,000 lb bomb, as the advances in explosive fillers give
>the MK-83 greater destructive power.
Yes, you are completely ignorant of the subject. Why continue to
demonstrate it? Why are not not claiming that the Enolo Gay
carried a 15,000 ton bomb on the same basis of estimation?
>> And a 550 pounder is still a 550 pounder.
>GIWER HEAD-UP-ASS ALERT #2: And this is a repeat of GIWER HEAD-UP-ASS ALERT #1.
You are only demonstrating your ignorance. Do you really think
you are doing your holohugger cause any good when your ignorance
is on file for all time at Nizkor?
>> You are truly amazing. You know that you know nothing about this
>> subject and yet you keep on coming. You are more reminiscent of
>> a barroom brawler than a debater.
>REALITY CHECK: What is truly amazing, but hardly suprising, is that Giwer,
>acting like a pig rooting around in pig-shit, hasn’t the brains to realize
>he’s acting like a pig rooting around in pig-shit! Certainly none of the
>pig-shit dribbling from his pig-mouth can be construed as constituting a
>debate!
By analogy, if I am the pig, you are the shit. But please do not
take this as a contradiction of your analogy, schoolboy.
>> >> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer here claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_ use
>> >> >a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a “bomb shelter,” yet
>> >> >they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans.
>> >>
>> >> Try reading for comprehension this time.
>GOOD SAMARITAN ALERT: I would suggest Giwer try Thorazine. I hear it’s
>quite effective in the treatment of schizophrenia. Or perhaps, in Giwer’s
>particular case, a box of truffles, pigs evidently find them divine!
Keep going, pigshit.
>> >REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_
>> >use a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a “bomb shelter,” yet
>> >they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans.
>>
>> No many how many times you make your false statements they will
>> not become true. I have said the design feature are those of a
>> bomb shelter so if the morgue had any secondary purpose it was as
>> a bomb shelter. You are the one with a morgue with unnecessary
>> and more expensive features.
>REPEAT REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_
>use a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a “bomb shelter,” yet
>they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans. One
>could, according to the Nazi designations, reasonably assume that this
>meant that the Nazis origionally intenended them to be morgues. All of
>which makes perfect sense as they were part of the Kremas who _purpose_
>was to incinerate corpses, which would be temporarily held in the morgues.
>Furthermore, the location of the Kremas away from the camp population
>(seperated by electrified fences, guards, etc.) made quick and easy access
>to the L.Kellers impossible for the prisoners (or SS staff) in the camp.
>This would mean that only the Krema “staff” would have timely access to
>the L.Kellers. Why then would the Kremas, with a “staff” of a few dozen
>people require _two_ “bomb shelters” that could hold several thousand
>people? Not to mention that Kremas IV and V had no such underground
>L.Kellers for their “staff” to use as “bomb shelters?”
No matter how many times your repeat your lies they will remain
the pigshit you post.
>> >> If you would read carefully you could save much of your time.
>REALITY CHECK: If could read, he would save _everybody_ a lot of time!
Right on, pigshit.
>> >EVASION ALERT: Giwer, unable to coherently address the issues, ducks,
>> >dodges, and weaves in a desperate, but unsuccessful, attempt to not appear
>> >as a complete idiot.
>>
>> You are making claims that I have said something that I did not.
>> I can not evade what I did not say.
>REPEAT EVASION ALERT: Giwer, unable to coherently address the issues, ducks,
>dodges, and weaves in a desperate, but unsuccessful, attempt to not appear
>as a complete idiot.
You refuse to answer questions and resond only with your pigshit.
>[snip]
Of course.
>> >> What you fail to note is that there is no documentation that
>> >> states they are being modified into gas chambers.
>>
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer being the dishonest scum he is, not will
>> >not acknowledge the many memos, letters, and receipts that show that
>> >indeed the L.Keller 1s were converted into gas chambers prior to Kremas II
>> >and III becoming operational.
>>
>> Excuse me but if there is such evidence PBS’s Frontline failed to
>> report it as you have failed to report it. Of course, it is only
>> a TV program so Shtetl was an equally incompetant effort. But
>> then since you know of so much evidence, post it. And send
>> copies to the production company also as they did clearly state
>> that there was no such evidence.
>EVASION ALERT: Giwer, unable to coherently address the issues, ducks,
>dodges, and weaves in a desperate, but unsuccessful, attempt to not appear
>as a complete idiot.
Yes, you refuse to answer questions ans respond with pigshit.
>[snip]
Of course.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:44:29 PDT 1996
Article: 36127 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 08:40:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4mm[email protected]> <4m[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>Testimony of SS private Bock:
>>>[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein,
>>>Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
>>>chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
>>>p. 181].
>>>——————————————————————
>>> Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There
>>> was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing
>>> children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in
>>> and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
>>> SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
>>> ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
>>> was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
>>> were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch.
>>>
>>>Auschwitz is a pretty cold place in the winter. If many people
>>>are squeezed into a small chamber, and killed there, and the
>>>doors are opened shortly afterwards, there will be some heat
>>>coming out of that chamber.
>>>What is Giwer trying to say? Who knows. One thing is certain: not
>>>many people still believe his statement that his IQ is 163.
>> One, there is no indication of the season in this story. Two, to
>>have made this remark one would have to assume he had never
>>entered a room with a large number of people in it in winter.
>>Three, “heat was given off” is neither a reasonable construct nor
>>translation for meaning to say, “the room was warm.”
>You should ask yourself two questions: first, what is the heating
>power of one victim, naked, in a cold place, let’s say 5°C, before the
>gassing ? and second, what is the heating power of a corpse once
>killed ? Then you could answer to this question: what was the
>temperature after 15 mn of airing at 8000 m^3/h for 500 victims in 500
>m^3 ? I can say it was a little warm, but I prefer to let you do the
>calculus.
So why do you not provide the answer and show how it is different
>from entering a room of live people? The answer of course is
that you do not have the foggiest idea where to start. But,
prove me wrong. Do your own “calculus” and post it and show the
difference.
Of course you will not.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:44:30 PDT 1996
Article: 36133 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.smokers,alt.flame,alt.syntax.tactical,alt.support.non-smokers,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer admits lying
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 07:07:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4m09ep$v5h@news. <4[email protected]> <4m90c5[email protected]> <4mvpe[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Suck my Dambik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer
>> >[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> >>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn’t figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to
>> >>: >have 100% accuracy. That’s not humanly possible, except perhaps in a
>> >>: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness
>> >>: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call
>> >>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there’s a
>> >>: >problem. But often a witness who can’t remember whatcolor socks a robber
>> >>: >was wearing isn’t then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect
>> >>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.
>> >
>> >>: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>> >>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>> >>: the ‘engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes’ story that is sworn to by
>> >>: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>> >>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>> >>: skeptical response.
>> >
>> >>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already
>> >>posted the “answer.”
>> >
>> > That the eyewitness was lying of course.
>>
>> And there we have it. The Giwer-troll rejects the possibility of
>> error; any false statement by an eyewitness must be a lie and no
>> alternative hypothesis can be entertained.
>>
>> Therefore the Giwer-troll must admit he lied about the UN Declaration
>> of Human Rights requiring a jury trial. His attempt to claim it was a
>> mistake is another lie, as he has declared the immutable principle that a
>> witness making a false statement is lying, never simply mistaken.
>>
>> [another big snip]
>>
>>
>> > Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
>> >minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
>> >juvenile ridicule and such.
>>
>> And the Giwer-troll has admitted to being kicked off a large number of
>> them, presumably for the juvenile ridicule he has engaged in here. Not to
>> mention the lies and intellectual dishonesty. I find it incredible that
>> he can believe he is fooling anyone at this point save for the already
>> deluded. This really does look more like clinical mental illness than
>> rational tactical lying, as a reasonably intelligent liar using lies as a
>> means to an end would be careful not to be so bloody obvious about it.
>This is the same Matt Giwer who has been posting
>pro-tobacco-industry propaganda over on alt.smokers. His latest
>little anti-Semitic “gem” said:
I wonder if you think anyone is going to believe I have ever
posted to that conference.
But of course any dumbdick will try any smear tactic in their
quest for their control of smokers.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 11:02:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:40:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
>> Non sequitur, Fester. Like it or not, AIDS LARGELY affects homos.
>> Stating the TRUTH about the population most at risk of catching this
>> disease does NOT equate with calling it a “gay” disease. Get your head
>> out of your arse.
>BBBBBZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!!!!!
>
>Sorry, but thanks for showing what a homophobe you are, Grizzly.
>
>AIDS LARGELY affects the HETEROSEXUAL population these days.
>
>Get with it.
>
>Read a book.
>
>Get your head out of your ass.
I believe I did advise you to go and read the CDC’s HIV
surveillance summary before you spoke.
You are confusing rate of growth with absolute numbers.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 11 11:57:52 PDT 1996
Article: 36172 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 04:03:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3173ac60.46345[email protected]> <3177a686.933807[email protected]> <31794635.166785[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>:
>>>: Because in the US only the IRS can establish who and for what
>>>: purposes such tax receipts can be granted.
>>
>>>Congratulations, Mr. GIwer! You have succesfully removed from Congress
>>>its power to determine taxation! Let’s see, you’ve taken away the
>>>Congrssional War Power, now the tax power, — and given both to the
>>>Executive Branch! What’s next — the Executive exclusive power to
>>>determine who can immigrate to this country?
>>
>> Do you truly confuse that with an intelligent response?
> I thought it was a cute and accurate response. Why, are you now
> asserting you have knowledge in civics that we all are lacking?
> Sheesh, Mr. Giwer, where DID you get all this knowledge?
At least we agree you were being cute rather than intelligent.
>> But in fact you forgot to give similar power to the President who
>>signs the bills into law. Even in stupidity you fail.
> No. The power of taxation is classicly assigned to the legislative
> branch, not the executive branch. While the President traditionally
> presents a budget to Congress and the President Constitutionally signs
> budget bills, the President cannot enact taxation powers on his own.
> Congress, through veto overrides, CAN enact taxation legislation
> without the cooperation of the President.
And you are from Canada, right?
The veto and override procedures apply to all bills as does the
the procedure of veto and over ride apply to all laws. You are
saying nothing unique to taxation.
The only restriction on revenue bills is the following.
Sect. 7. All bill for raising revenue shall originate in the
house of representative; but the senate may propose or concur
with amendments as on other bills.
And as you notice only applies to which house of Congress can
originate such a bill. It has nothing to do with assigning the
function.
No president can introduce a bill to Congress. The best he can
do is have a friendly member of Congress do it for him. A budget
is not a bill. There is no Constitutional requirement for the
president to submit a budget.
> In either case, your initial response was wrong as the IRS simply
> carries out tax laws – it does not create them.
Actually it creates regulations that will implement the law.
> Mr. Giwer, I am amazed at how often you can put your foot in your
> mouth. I have never in all my years on conferencing systems seen
> anyone do so more regularly than you.
I find it amazing Canadians think they know something about this
country.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 11:57:54 PDT 1996
Article: 36176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B – Unlikely Agent
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 03:03:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>[snip]
>> >> I will be happy to read this supporting documentation you claim
>> >> exists when it is posted but what you have said does not support
>> >> any claim of scientific accuracy as a requirement for a patent.
>> >> You will also note that in previous posts several different
>> >> media, primarily silica gel, have been posted as the medium.
>>
>> >REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever supporting
>> >documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to determine
>> >this? No? Then why do he make such a specious claim?
>>
>> When some university is dumb enough to give you a degree, get
>> back to me with it’s name.
>REPEAT REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever
>supporting documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to
>determine this? No? Then why does he make such a specious claim?
You are reaching very far on this one. We have had deliberately
deceiteful implications that the information in patents needs be
scientifically correct in light of the anti-gravity and magnets
attracting submarine patents that have been granted.
Are you ready to explain how Thomas Edison could possibly have
been scientifically accurate?
And the request to get back to me about a university giving you a
degree stands.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 11:57:54 PDT 1996
Article: 36178 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 03:14:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[About Zyklon-B pellets]
>>
>># You forget that one of your holohuggers proved the could
>># not have been blue because HCN only forms that color with iron.
>>
>>Since you are in the habit of misquoting people, it would be
>>better if you give the exact citation. Frankly, I don’t believe
>>one word you write. So post the excerpt you refer to.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
> So what about it professor, was Zyklon B blue or not?
You will note here a clear example of the difference between
analytic thought and scholarship. Their entire mindset if that
someone has to have said it; it has to be a citation.
The world started making real progress when it dropped Thus spake
Aristotle for real thinking. It never occurs to them to even
look it up for themselves as they have such extensive library
access.
And even in their own mode of thinking, there are two chemists
here who will remain silent on the matter as long they feel
another holohugger is scoring points.
And I think I know which verses from the holy writ you have in
mind on this one.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 13:10:35 PDT 1996
Article: 36189 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lessons of the Holocaust (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 05:53:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319230[email protected]> <4mti1c$n[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>:
>: >While these events are clearly tragic, and while I believe that the
>: >government of Israel has some questions to answer, I fail to see what
>: >this massacre has to do with the historicity of the holocaust. Why was
>: >it posted in alt.revisionism?
>:
>: I fail to see what the orthodox history of the holocaust has to
>: do with revisionism.
>:
>: If you folks want to talk anti-revisionism, get a separate
>: newsgroup.
>Can you even see what an idiot you look like? Are you that drunk that you
>cannot?
You fascination with my drinking habits is quite interesting.
What brings you to it? A member of AA?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 13:10:36 PDT 1996
Article: 36190 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews subvert militias
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 05:30:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 12:34:13 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: ombase.com> <4lb3jn$1c[email protected].
>: <[email protected]>
>: <[email protected]>
>: <[email protected]>
>Distribution:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >(Matt Giwer) said:
>:
>:
>: >>>> I am ready to file the complaint. Are you and your company and your job
>: >>>>ready to answer for it?
>:
>: >>>This is starting to get silly. I have never called you in my life, I have
>: >>>never heard of Internet Direct, and I can tell you that you don’t have to
>: >>>worry about whether I am ready to answer *your* “complaint”. You should
>: >be
>: >>>worrying about the complaint I will be filing.
>:
>: >> That is not what you posted in this conference. And I have
>: >>nearly the same words from you by email.
>:
>: >Another lie. I have never e-mailed the Giwer-troll in my life.
>:
>: >> You are very stupid.
>:
>: >>>Now, as I said in another post, you will either withdraw this rubbish, or
>: >>>you will suffer the consequences.
>:
>: >> I am quaking. Another sillly threat. Don’t you folks ever learn how
>: >>silly you look?
>:
>: >Fine, Mr. Giwer. Just don’t say you weren’t warned.
>:
>: A feeling of terror arises as though I were studying in the
>: Miskatonic library at midnight.
>Personally, I hope Mr. McFee does file suit against you when you repeat
>the false allegaiton. I just know you’ll squawk about how the
>”holohuggers” are trying to silence you.
Golly Cheeze Whiz. Someone is going to file in Canada when I
have witnesses who will swear they were told by the idirect CEO
that it was him? And then, even if winning, they are going to
collect? How?
I have judgements totaling over $50,000 in the US right now but
never have been able to collect on them.
What fantasy world do you live in that makes you think it is a
worthwhile investment of time and money?
Does someone really need an education in law from me when our
resident self proclaimed attorney has indicated it is so
threatening?
And what is the claim but defamation of character and as anyone
but our resident attorney will admit that requires “clean hands”
to pursue. Clean hands means there are no equivalent attacks and
no court is going to waste the time determining whether or not
any claim of “anti-semitic” was truthful or defamatory.
I assure you, when I was there, I got the above judgments in
absense of defendents. The judges are the harshest cross
examiners and dismiss everything beyond the clear evidence
without hesitation.
Your buddy here does not have clean hands in the least.
You are supporting him, not me.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 14:26:18 PDT 1996
Article: 36194 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 04:55:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4m05[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 05 11:56:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>Mark Van wrote on Apr 18, 1996
>Ceacaa wrote:
>>> Then can we assume that the “removable core” had the
>>> biggest surface area and, therefore, probably went to the
>>> floor? TO BE BLUNT, HOW LONG WAS YOUR REMOVABLE CORE????
>>In addition, according to Pressac (_Anatomy_, p.232) on March 13, 1943,
>>1,492 Jews were killed in the gas chamber of Krema II. Six kilos of
>>Zyklon
>>B were used. That would be 1.5 kilos per introduction column, which is
>>exactly what largest size cannister of Zyklon B held. (_Anatomy_, p.209.)
>>Now, we have something to go on. Using our guestimated value of 1 g/cu
>>cm for Zyklon B, we see that it would require 1,500 cu cm of volume in
>>the core. As each linear cm of the core has a volume of 175 cu cm, that
>>would mean that it would imply a minimum core length of about 9 cm. In
>>other words, not very much.
>
>>So, to anwser your question, Ceacaa, less than 1 meter. Probably much
>>less.
> For persons just arriving on this thread, Mark Van Alstine is
>the first person to have tried to calculate something about the
>size of the “murder weapon”, ie. the core which held the
>poisonous Zyclon and which was used to kill hundreds of thousands
>of persons.
> In fact, according to Mark’s calculations, this core pillar was
>at least 9 cm. long. That is, for you all in the United States, less than
>5 inches, about the lenght of a cigarette.
One has to be patient with the innumerate and hope they repeat
their gradeschool classes real soon. They really have no idea
how silly they sound.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 14:26:20 PDT 1996
Article: 36195 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen’s thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 06:16:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 1:18:13 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>> I fall somewhere between the two of you on these points. While cause
>>> and effect research risks over simplifying complex systemic antecedents
>>> to historical events, it seems to me that building models showing
>>> connectivity among events is useful. It seems that it ought to be
>>> possible to construct structured linear relationship (ie lisrel etc.)
>>> models to show potenial causal relationships.
>>
>>> However, I agree that “responsibility” is a value laden term that does
>>> little towards adding to historical understanding. And, in fact,
>>> interjection of such values can make it difficult to objectively study
>>> historical issues. I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>> possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>> get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man.
>>> Those values (be they right or wrong) are too much of a filter keeping
>>> us from really understanding what happened.
>>
>> Do you happen to own a baseball team?
> Interesting question, troll. I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
> fan. I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
> fielded in the 70s.
Then you would not remember Ted Kluseuski would you.
> I boycotted baseball in ’93 because of Marge Schott. Everytime I think
> about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
> stupid.
> What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
> things she says. And, as you haven’t put forward any arguments
> disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
> trolling once again.
Have you missed the latest outburst? To the effect that everyone
knows he started off doing good things and then went crazy?
What might the difference be between that and
I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>> possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>> get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man.
What if Marge Schott has said those words?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:50:35 PDT 1996
Article: 36208 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 07:13:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4lu8jo$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m02pr$nvg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4[email protected]> <4m[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 2:17:48 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:
>:
>: >: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>:
>: >: >>Actually the Iraqis were told that if they left their weapons and
>: >: >>retreated they would not be harmed. They retreated with their
>: >: >>weapons and everything they could carry that was not nailed down.
>:
>: >: >I was under the impression that they were told to lay down their weapons
>: >: >and surrender, but I believe you are correct. However, if you look at
>: >: >pictures of the carnage you will see many weapons on the order of Volvo
>: >: >station wagons. Oh! Silly me! That’s a weapon too. Just ask the IDF
>: >: >hotshot who blasted the ambulance last week.)
>:
>: >: >I don’t know. The Marianas Turkey-Shoot was the equivalent of mowing down
>: >: >cannon fodder–gruesome, but just war. Killing bitterly resisting Germans
>: >: >all the way up the Italian peninsula was absolutely necessary. But the
>: >: >Iraqui road shoot strikes me as being well over any moral line I’d ever
>: >: >hope to have to cross.
>:
>: >: You can’t win a war if you let the enemy retreat armed. If they
>: >: had not been attacked on the way out there was nothing to prevent
>: >: them from regrouping and returning putting things right back
>: >: where they started.
>:
>: >: If they had not been shot at on the way out why would they have
>: >: continued to leave? It is because they were being shot at that
>: >: they decided to leave in the first place. So when does one stop
>: >: shooting?
>:
>: >: The best rule is to keep wars off of the evening news so
>: >: decisions can be made for military reasons rather than for public
>: >: relations reasons.
>:
>: >Uh-huh. So what do you do about that pesky First Amendment?
>:
>: It is not nearly as pesky as the second.
>(a) NOt an answer, el Giwero. Not even close. HOw do you keep wars off
>the evening news without violating the First Amendment?
You appear to be ridiculing Hispanics. Too Catholic for you?
>(b)Not that I feel like getting into a gun control debate on
>alt.revisionism, el Giwero, but I would like you to find me one case that
>holds that the 2d Amendment gives all private citizens the right to own a
>gun. Just one.
You are wise not to do so, spic-hater.
But if you are willing to state that no one has the right to self
defense you will have put your foot directly in the mouth that is
not quite on the keyboard. Or are you going to claim the only
right to self defense is to call 911?
Stupid shit!
> : : There is a
>: >long history of First Amendment challenges to wartime access/printing.
>: >It’s actually a lot easier than you might think to dany access — but
>: >it’s pretty damned hard to prevent TV stations from airing information
>: >they have. SO the ogvernment can create “press pools,” etc. — but there
>: >wasn’t much they could do about Bernie Shaw other than aiming for him,
>: >which they didn’t do for reasons I think you can imagine.
>:
>: >PLus there’s also the problem of the alternate PR headache of not
>: >allowing any info out — for some reason, the American public doesn’t
>: >seem to like that.
>:
>: The issue is military decisions being made for military reasons
>: and a civilian leadership being willing to support their military
>: without an eye towards the next election. We have not had that
>: in this country since some time before WW II. Patton, arguably
>: our best tank commander in that war, was almost keep out of the
>: drive to Berlin because of the press coverage he was given.
>:
>: In the subject under discussion, just a while back I saw Bush
>: agreeing that he called off the killing too soon. And we know
>: rather clearly that Schwarzkopf (almost pulling a Patton to the
>: press) was in favor of another day. It was an incorrect decision
>: and was based upon election politics.
>:
>: And if you want to expand the subject it was the journalism
>: majors who screwed it up. At least in the old days reporters
>: were not hired for being college grads but for having experience
>: in the subject they are hired to cover. In all the coverage of
>: that war that I followed rather carefully, I did not hear one
>: question from any journalist nor one discussion by any journalist
>: that suggested he had the slightest knowledge of war in any form.
>I suspect this is due to your own demented notions of what demonstrates
>knowledge in any form.
Yes, you are a college kid. When you grow up, get back to me.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:50:36 PDT 1996
Article: 36219 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 09:24:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4fc5.42293[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 4:27:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>:
>: > Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
>: >up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
>: >there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
>: >Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
>: >citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
>: >Something like, ‘WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
>: >Germans estimated …’.
>:
>: > As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.
>:
>: > “In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
>: >Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
>: >for these countries: Findland 2,300; … Netherlands, 165,000; …
>: >Romania, 342,000; … Hungary, 742,000; … France (occupied) 165,000;
>: >… France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
>: >was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
>: >unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people.”
>: > *Raul Hilberg
>:
>: I have found it interesting that to even come up with the 11M of
>: the Wannsee document that there has to be an estimate of 5M in
>: Russia. Yet they barely held control of half of Western Urals
>: Russia at best and then only for the duration of the Winter.
>(a)What does the estimate of the Wannsee document have to do with the
>maount of control they had? I doubt at the time of Wannsee, they would
>have assumed that they were going to fail to completely take Russia
>eventually.
My point was that they would have had control over, as a first
cut estimate, only 8.5 million Jews and to have gotten a total of
6 million gave them a very high efficiency in collection. It was
an observation for later development.
>(b)Unlike you, I will admit what I don’t know — I don’t know what
>percentage of Russia’s Jews were under control of the Germans, at what
>points, or how long. Perhaps you would care to provide the source for
>your information so I can go look it up?
I am merely making an estimate for later development. You might
work on it yourself when it comes up again.
> : : It is unclear why, when inretreat, that resources
>would be : diverted from combat to continue rounding up people. Combining
>: that with only having access to 8.5M people that gives us a
>: rather astonishing 70% efficiency rating overall.
>The fact that it is uncleawr to you does not mean it is unclear. I;ve
>heard the same arguments made: the Germans wouldn’t have wasted precious
>resources on murdering th eJews while they needed the resources for a war;
>the Germans wouldn’t have squandered Jewisk scientific know-how which was
>needed for a war; etc., etc.
That you may or may not have heard this point raised before is
not material to you lumping it in with others you may or may not
have heard. Clearly here we would be talking primarily about
Russian peasants as the country was some 60% agrarian at the
time.
>In part, I’m with you on this, in that i think the German zeal for
>murdering Jews was not a concept of rationality — I think it was the
>irrational acts of people whose judgment was clouded by rabid
>anti-Semitism. If you want to know *why*, you’re going to have to find an
>answer from someone responsible.
The thrust of the point is that during that winter the Germans in
Russia were learning the meaning of disease and starvation.
After the winter broke they were learning the meaning of retreat.
Now, unlike the view of retreat of journalists during the Gulf
War as a time a quietly being allowed to run away, it was a time
of Germans being actively killed. With the grain of salt for the
“Heroes of the Soviet Union” stories we have even the active
military being killed off by peasants in the retreat from Moscow.
The other Germans divisions were fairing so badly there was no
way to reinforce that retreat as they were engaged in their own.
That means they were being killed, if not by peasants.
And in light of this we have an assertion of a fanatical
devotion to rounding up Jews and Slavs a huge fraction of them
just to have the remaining Jewish population in the rest of
Europe based solely upon a claim of anti-semitism. Motivating
troops under these conditions is much more than anti-semitism.
It is providing these SS folks with food and equipment in excess
of the retreating troops in the face of a casualty taking retreat
with no sign of slowing. If nothing else there would be the
“give me those SS and I will hold this position and they can get
back to work.” The problem with all of this is that while there
are several examples of orders to hold positions to the point of
destruction of the unit there are clearly none to continue this
“fanatical” effort to round up Jews and Slavs, or shoot on sight
if you will.
And let me add another point. In retreat one rarely has control
of the route of retreat. If an army can it goes in the direction
of defensible positions, meaning high grounds, forests things
that slow down the attacker. That is exactly the opposite of
retreating along rail lines meaning they would be abandoned
rather randomly. No shipping facilities.
And this turning point was in the winter of 1942-43 with the
surrender of the German 6th Army in Stalingrad in Jan 43. All of
these great roundups occurred in the one year between the Wannsee
protocol and then. And these huge killing numbers were while in
retreat. One has a clear question as to how these SS types were
retreating even faster and still being motivated to halt and kill
off a few more. They had no more respites in retreat than the
Russians had in the face of the German advance.
One has to grant that dint of superhuman effort can have made
these things possible. But one has to also grant that troops are
motivated by staying alive when in the field. All that
motivational stuff when back safe at home rapidly comes to naught
within the sound of hostile fire.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:50:37 PDT 1996
Article: 36220 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:23:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31861a38[email protected]> <8[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <831496303s[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 8:27:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <831496303s[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] “Derek Bell” writes:
>>
>>> Alexander Baron
>>> >A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>>> >Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions –
>>> >Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>>> >given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.
>>>
>>> So when were UFO pilots tried and found guilty of abductions? There
>>> is *significantly more* evidence for the Holocaust happening than UFO
>>> abductions. Look to Nizkor for references.
>>
>>I don’t dispute that but in many cases the quality isn’t much better.
> That’s true. Here’s the formula bubby:
> UFOs : weak evidence
> Holocaust : weak evidence + strong evidence
> You simply choose to always focus on the many pieces of weak evidence
> and ignore the many pieces of strong evidence regarding the Holocaust.
Only for those who consider testimony of any kind to be evidence.
Pennsylvania may vary.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:50:38 PDT 1996
Article: 36221 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas bag
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:22:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >Matt Giwer
>: >>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: >>
>: >>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >>>: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >>
>: >>>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >>>: >Matt Giwer
>: >>>: >> We know from eyewitness testimony
>: >>
>: >>>: > “We?” Do you have a friend in your pocket? I don’t know some of the
>: >>>: >things claimed below, especially as no evidence is cited.
>: >>
>: >>>: The “we” is the gang of six, the amen corner and all of Nizkor.
>:
>: > Then since you have named me as one of the gang of six, you are
>: >lying. I still don’t know it. And you still have not provided evidence.
>:
>: Nizkor named six contributors. If you want your name removed,
>: tell them about it.
>:
>: >>>As compared to the gang of Nazis, the Nazi amen corner, and Ernst Zundl’s
>: >>>followers?
>: >>
>: >> Whoever you may be referring to is not participating here.
>: >>
>: >>Careful about those group generalizations there, Mr. Giwer —
>: >>>you throw a hissy fit any time someone makes one about you.
>: >>
>: >> I merely point out they are knowingly lying.
>:
>: > I merely point out that you say this a lot, but have quite a bit of
>: >trouble coming up with evidence.
>:
>: How about one of our chemists saying, “show me where I exactly
>: claimed that bones do not burn” or words to that effect. Have
>: you forgotten how many people, yourself included if I remember
>: correctly, were jumping saying I was “lying” in saying that bones
>: burn?
>No, we remember the issue as to whether Calcium burns. You have stuck the
>word “bones” in for Calcium so many times that it’s impossible to believe
>that you’re not doing so deliberately. (Although I did note with interest
>your recent backpedal, claiming that he “implied” bones don’t burn, which
>of course he did not do — again, he was talking about whether Calcium
>burns).
What you may remember was his made up issue. You also may recall
I specifically asked him if he was making the juvenile
distinction between calcium and the organics which hold the
calcium together. You will also remember he ignored that
question and went back to what was in fact the juvenile game he
was playing.
That you were suckered in by it is your problem. You should have
paid more attention to what I wrote.
>And you also remember his misleading idirection about
>: cyanide in flue gases?
>No. Once again, we remember your “inference” from his “implication.” You
>never respond to what anyone says — you respond to what you claim they
>said, and the two never seem to be the same.
Why was I to participate in another of his juvenile games?
>: There is no significant difference between lying and repeating
>: lies as personal concurrance is implied without giving the
>: source.
>There is no difference between lying and saying someone said somehting
>that they did not say. Your fantastic inferences are not attributable to
>the speaker, only to your fevered mind.
Intent to mislead and misdirect, which he so successfully did to
so many holohuggers here is a lie.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 20:33:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36231 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 08:33:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <317e33e1.3331[email protected]> <4m1k8b$j[email protected]> <4mebi0$2[email protected]> <4mh9eq[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>I wrote:
>>>Mr. Giwer fails to document where I have stated that there is no HCN present
>>>in flue gases from coke. He cannot do so. Mr. Giwer’s inability to
>>>read English or understand the difference between oxidation and
>>>reduction is hardly my problem.
>Mr. Giwer replies:
>> And the reason I can not do that is that I did not say you ever
>>said it. I said that you engaged in an unprofessional (at the
>>minimum, although I would call it unethical) misuse of your
>>credentials to engage in a game that implied I was wrong when in
>>fact I was correct.
>On the contrary, Mr. Giwer was wrong when he said that atmospheric
>nitrgen burns to produce HCN. I have always been very careful about any
>claims I have made. It is Mr. Giwer who is unethical: Mr. Giwer invents
>explanations that he doesn’t understand in order to convince others that
>he knows something about science; he does not.
This is hardly worth discussing. You posted to mislead your
fellow holohuggeres. Everyon who has refered to you as a
chemist now looks like the suckers they really are.
That is what you have deiberately done. There is no way to talk
your way out of it.
>> You pulled the same stunt with your bone burning routine also.
>I never once claimed that bones burned or didn’t burn; I made that very
>clear. I stated only that Mr. Giwer was wrong when he claimed that
>calcium in bones burn. Mr. Giwer is unable to admit that he was wrong
>and accuses mne of being unethical for stating the truth.
You engaged in a deliberate pattern of deception.
At no time did you ever correct anyone whom you deceived when
they referred to your posts as the expert chemist on this
conference. Never! Not once! You are a liar. You are an
unethical person. You are a holohugger.
There is no difference between any of the above three
characterizations. You holohuggers are unethical, deceitful and
knowingly so.
>>I presume you are playing the same game with your human body
>>combustion is exothermic routine as you have not responded.
>Mr. Giwer is quite correct, I am playing the same game: I am stating the
>truth and backing it up with evidence and rational argument. Mr.
>Giwer’s inability to understand is not my problem. That he resorts to
>ad homoniem attacks when proven wrong speaks volumes about his
>character.
You are not playing any game, you have deceived many of your
fellow holohuggers into citing you as a source and here you
clearly admit you were lying.
You made fools of them and here you clearly admit it.
I also note your previous claim of being a member of the
chemistry deparment as a sig has disappeared. You were lying
before. That is clear.
>> And in the process you deliberately and willfully mislead your
>>fellow holohuggers into believing I was wrong. You did not
>>deceive me. You deceived them.
>I deceived no one. I proved Mr. Giwer wrong about specific statements
>that he made. His inability to understand high school chemistry, plain
>English, and elementary logic is not my problem.
You clearly read people who were citing you as a “chemist” and
you did not questiong them or correct them as to your position.
You are clearly a liar.
>> But for me all you have done is demonstrate your clear
>>willingness to deceive in order to promote your holocaust
>>beliefs.
>Mr. Giwer accuses me of deceit; yet he is incapable of producing a
>single post in which I have been deceitful.
I am not accusing you. I am identifying you as deceitful.
Do you have any idea how many messages I can respond to citing
your lies as an authority and point out that you have admitted
you made it all up? You are a liar and you lied to the people
citing you as the authority in response to my statements.
You are a liar. What I have said is true and anyone citing you
as an authority was suckered in by you. They were very dumb and
stupid to believe your posts. You are clearly unethical and a
liar.
>> And as an example, if you are willing to do this, who is not
>>willing to do this? You, an academic, a PhD candidate. What
>>does that say for all of the other “academics” who support your
>>beliefs in the holocaust? Are they all playing exactly the same
>>game as you? The “I didn’t exactly say but I lead you to believe
>>it” game?
>I have played no such game. Mr. Giwer’s lack of scientific training,
>lack of ability to reason or understand basic English are responsible
>for any untrue belief he has carried away from my posts.
You have clealy demonstated yourself to be a liar and everyone
who has cited you as an “expert” in chemistry has been made out
to be a fool for believing you.
Only your fellow holohuggers will excuse you (very christian of
them) for making fools of themselves because of you.
And your .sig changed. Why is that?
>> Is that really all there is to your holocaust? That you trick
>>people into believing in it? It certainly appears that is all
>>there is to your holocaust, pure and simple deceit and may I even
>>add treachery to your fellow holohuggers as you have undercut
>>them all with display of willful deception.
>Mr. Giwer cannot produce a single example of willful deceit on my part.
>Mr. Giwer’s lack of scientific training, lack of ability to reason or
>understand basic English are responsible for any untrue belief he has
>carried away from my posts.
You are a worthless piece of human trash whe lies and hides
behind a legalistic piece of created bullshit.
>> But of course they will be Christian enough to forgive you.
>>
>> In my book you remain unethical and deceitful. I would hope that
>>all of the participants in this conference share that opinion of
>>them and in particular your fellow holohuggers who were swearing
>>by your deception which you are now retracting. You suckered
>>them in. I will not let them forget it.
>I have retracted nothing. I stand by my posts. Mr. Giwer cannot produce a
>single example of willful deceit on my part. Mr. Giwer’s lack of scientific
>training, lack of ability to reason or understand basic English are
>responsible for any untrue belief he has carried away from my posts.
>Regards,
>Rich Green
>–
>—————————————————————————-
>Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
>[email protected] Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>”If it works, take it apart and find out why.” – unknown
Richard Green is a lying piece of shit who has deceived many with
his word games.
They should deal with you, not me.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 20:33:51 PDT 1996
Article: 36260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:43:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36260 soc.culture.jewish:49431 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19644 soc.culture.israel:33239
[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>Do you think you can change? I want to see one note from you accepting
>the State of Israel and praising something it did. Now do you think
>you can do that for us?
Making peace, giving up occupied territory, are all to be
encouraged but it does not seem appropriate to praise Israel for
doing the right thing. That is more like something one does in
raising a child.
It is often bemoaned that the US is the only ally Israel has in
the world. But then one is left with the problem of explaining
how so many other nations in the world have been so wrong for so
many decades.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 23:04:44 PDT 1996
Article: 36276 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:11:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>On Ceasar’s inability to differentiate between terrorists
>>>masquerading as civilians or religious clerics and between
>>>civilians who get blown up by the “holy missions” of the
>>>terrorists:
>>
>> Those kids in the ambulance were wired with explosives?
>That’s not so impossible considering the track record of hiding behind
>skirts and hospitals.–(H)
Were they?
>>>>>For some reason, you are remarkably resistant to understanding
>>>>>these differences. I wonder why.
>>
>>>>It is difficult to see why you continue to ignore that Israel is
>>>>the occupying nation in this case. If it would leave the
>>>>resistance movement’s activities would cease.
>Since Syria occupies most of Lebanon and does not want to make peace I
>think not (H)
Israel was the agressor against Lebanon last time around. It is
up to Israel to make the concessions first.
>>>Errr, ummmm, about 90% of Syria is occupied by Syrian forces.
>>
>> I would have though 100%.
>>
>Even the best of us can make typos. I’m sure you understood what Jake
>meant. (H)
>>>Some 40,000 troops. Been there for years. President Assad
>>>of Syria TELLS Beirut what to say. Which is why they both
>>>have identical voting records now.
>>
>> And the are only there because in 1982 Israel deliberated
>>destabilized the entire country trying install a Marianist as
>>dictator. The years of fighting in Beirut, an abortive US
>>attempt to make a peace, Syria moving in to keep the peace is all
>>the consequence of the actions of Israel.
>>
>> Don’t gripe about it. Israel caused it.
>>
>WE can all see how you are deliberately obfuscating the issue or even
>dare I say lying. I don’t think any of the posters are too young to
>not remember Back Sept. and how the PLO destroyed Lebanon so now you
>think you can blame Israel for what Arafat did. (H)
It could not have happened were it nor for the invasion.
The amen corner can’t seem to find anything but excuses for
Israel.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sat May 11 23:04:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36284 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:03:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 6:07:58 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer
># Five acres makes it worse. Someone had posted it was a 40 arce
># complex to I was dividing by 40. Now we are up to 8 lbs of bone
># ash per square foot.
>1) Your calculation assumes 2 million victims (while there were
> 700,000).
>2) There were many infants and children present. They weigh much
> less than adults.
>3) Weight (the “8 lbs”) you mention above, can be evaluated only
> if you compute its volume, relative to a column of earth 7.5
> meter high and one sq. foot at the base. Would you like to
> do the necessary computation, and tell us what was the relative
> *volume* of the ashes, compared to the earth?
We can adjust this any way we want. There are still tons of it.
The layer would clearly be visible.
You 25 foot column is clearly out of no where. The walls would
have to have been shorn up to prevent collapse. Five acres dug
to that depth with sloped sides by manual labor would be a task
up to the ancient Egyptians. Certainly it would have shown up in
some of those “spy” reports if not your eyewitnesses.
Your mention of mixed with sand was interesting. How many
thousands of tons of sands are hauled in just for this purpose?
Where did that claim come from? Is there a particular reason why
sand was better than the local dirt?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36310 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:36:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 222
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4fc5.42293[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>: >:
>: >:
>: >: > Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
>: >: >up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
>: >: >there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
>: >: >Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
>: >: >citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
>: >: >Something like, ‘WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
>: >: >Germans estimated …’.
>: >:
>: >: > As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.
>: >:
>: >: > “In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
>: >: >Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
>: >: >for these countries: Findland 2,300; … Netherlands, 165,000; …
>: >: >Romania, 342,000; … Hungary, 742,000; … France (occupied) 165,000;
>: >: >… France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
>: >: >was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
>: >: >unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people.”
>: >: > *Raul Hilberg
>: >:
>: >: I have found it interesting that to even come up with the 11M of
>: >: the Wannsee document that there has to be an estimate of 5M in
>: >: Russia. Yet they barely held control of half of Western Urals
>: >: Russia at best and then only for the duration of the Winter.
>:
>:
>: >(a)What does the estimate of the Wannsee document have to do with the
>: >maount of control they had? I doubt at the time of Wannsee, they would
>: >have assumed that they were going to fail to completely take Russia
>: >eventually.
>:
>: My point was that they would have had control over, as a first
>: cut estimate, only 8.5 million Jews and to have gotten a total of
>: 6 million gave them a very high efficiency in collection. It was
>: an observation for later development.
>:
>: >(b)Unlike you, I will admit what I don’t know — I don’t know what
>: >percentage of Russia’s Jews were under control of the Germans, at what
>: >points, or how long. Perhaps you would care to provide the source for
>: >your information so I can go look it up?
>:
>: I am merely making an estimate for later development. You might
>: work on it yourself when it comes up again.
>No, I don’t think so. Once again, you see no need to do any research
>yourself. Given that statistics are available, why do you “estimate,” and
>what do you base your estimates on?
What does research have to do with calculations? It is glaringly
obvious. In fact it has already been posted.
>: > : : It is unclear why, when inretreat, that resources
>: >would be : diverted from combat to continue rounding up people. Combining
>: >: that with only having access to 8.5M people that gives us a
>: >: rather astonishing 70% efficiency rating overall.
>:
>: >The fact that it is uncleawr to you does not mean it is unclear. I;ve
>: >heard the same arguments made: the Germans wouldn’t have wasted precious
>: >resources on murdering th eJews while they needed the resources for a war;
>: >the Germans wouldn’t have squandered Jewisk scientific know-how which was
>: >needed for a war; etc., etc.
>:
>: That you may or may not have heard this point raised before is
>: not material to you lumping it in with others you may or may not
>: have heard. Clearly here we would be talking primarily about
>: Russian peasants as the country was some 60% agrarian at the
>: time.
>Mmmm-hmmm. But the basic idiocy of the point remains the same.
Then you have done the calculations but fail to post them.
>Revisionist ask why the Germans would be illogical enough to devote
>resources to killing Jews at this time; I can ask why Hitler was illogical
>enough to invade Russia before beating England. There are answers to
>both, but fact is that its seemig illogical nature to us doesn’t prove
>that the Germans did not have a different set of priorities.
That is not the point at all. But as for your fixation on
Hitler, even Danny Keren has posted that we will not get to the
truth of this until some people get passed the fixation that
Hitler was evil.
As for your Russian question, they had moved into attack
positions before Germany attacked them. Consider it a
pre-emptive strike.
>: >In part, I’m with you on this, in that i think the German zeal for
>: >murdering Jews was not a concept of rationality — I think it was the
>: >irrational acts of people whose judgment was clouded by rabid
>: >anti-Semitism. If you want to know *why*, you’re going to have to find an
>: >answer from someone responsible.
>:
>: The thrust of the point is that during that winter the Germans in
>: Russia were learning the meaning of disease and starvation.
>: After the winter broke they were learning the meaning of retreat.
>Yup. So if they knew they were beat, why’d they keep fighting? If they
>didn’t, why not continue killing the Jews?
Because in retreat the retreating party is being killed and
seeking a point to rally an offense and hopefully and offensive.
In retreat one is fighting for one’s life. And in this case you
are asking “why not continue to kill Jews when doing so risks our
own lives” which leaves you with questions to answer.
>: Now, unlike the view of retreat of journalists during the Gulf
>: War as a time a quietly being allowed to run away, it was a time
>: of Germans being actively killed. With the grain of salt for the
>: “Heroes of the Soviet Union” stories we have even the active
>: military being killed off by peasants in the retreat from Moscow.
>A “retreat” with “Germans being killed” does not contemporaneously signal
>that Germany hs lost the war. I would suggest that no one ever suggested
>at this time to Der Fuhrer that there was even a chance the war might be
>lost.
It does mean they were running away and were doing so because
those that did not run away fast enough were being killed. That
is the fact of retreat. If “Der Fuehrer” had ordered them to
stand and die, they might have but they would have died and this
is a pointless riposte.
>: The other Germans divisions were fairing so badly there was no
>: way to reinforce that retreat as they were engaged in their own.
>: That means they were being killed, if not by peasants.
>:
>: And in light of this we have an assertion of a fanatical
>: devotion to rounding up Jews and Slavs a huge fraction of them
>: just to have the remaining Jewish population in the rest of
>: Europe based solely upon a claim of anti-semitism. Motivating
>: troops under these conditions is much more than anti-semitism.
>Of course. The concept of Fuhrerprinzip was deeply ingrained in these
>folks; a combination of that and antiSemitism was the motivating factor.
Keep this firmly in mind. They were running away to avoid being
killed by Russians. And unless you truly believe war movie
propaganda you should learn that there is nothing in the mind of
any soldier than staying alive. I have yet to here any real
combat veteran cite the pep talks or spreading democracy or any
ideal or goal. They all talk staying alive. Killing the other
guy first.
Yet you posit the first group ever to have put another goal ahead
of staying alive. Upon what basis?
>: It is providing these SS folks with food and equipment in excess
>: of the retreating troops in the face of a casualty taking retreat
>: with no sign of slowing. If nothing else there would be the
>: “give me those SS and I will hold this position and they can get
>: back to work.” The problem with all of this is that while there
>: are several examples of orders to hold positions to the point of
>: destruction of the unit there are clearly none to continue this
>: “fanatical” effort to round up Jews and Slavs, or shoot on sight
>: if you will.
>Because! You! Say! So!
We are back to the mantra. I thought that died when
eyewitnesses created truth because they said so.
Get a head on those shoulders and take a real look at war. There
are plenty of examples of “fanatical” leaders in Vietnam. That
is where the term “fragging” came from.
>: And let me add another point. In retreat one rarely has control
>: of the route of retreat. If an army can it goes in the direction
>: of defensible positions, meaning high grounds, forests things
>: that slow down the attacker. That is exactly the opposite of
>: retreating along rail lines meaning they would be abandoned
>: rather randomly. No shipping facilities.
>:
>: And this turning point was in the winter of 1942-43 with the
>: surrender of the German 6th Army in Stalingrad in Jan 43. All of
>: these great roundups occurred in the one year between the Wannsee
>: protocol and then. And these huge killing numbers were while in
>: retreat. One has a clear question as to how these SS types were
>: retreating even faster and still being motivated to halt and kill
>: off a few more. They had no more respites in retreat than the
>: Russians had in the face of the German advance.
>One would have to suppose Hitler wasn;t sending more troops in to try and
>stop the retreat. One would have to view an army as one giant blob that
>is all noving, in sync, in one direction.
There were no more German troops available at the time. They
were correctly positioned in the west awaiting the invasion.
Germany was down to early teenagers and the elderly for the home
guard. Am I really the first to tell you this?
>: One has to grant that dint of superhuman effort can have made
>: these things possible. But one has to also grant that troops are
>: motivated by staying alive when in the field. All that
>: motivational stuff when back safe at home rapidly comes to naught
>: within the sound of hostile fire.
>And yet, Oh Giwerous one, it happened. Your view that this was illogical
>in no way disproves it; it only proves that you seem to think the world
>happens according to your opinions.
My view of this is in accord with every real statement ever made
by any grunt in recorded history.
Please post otherwise.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:01 PDT 1996
Article: 36311 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israle “fighting to win” (was: The Turner Diaries)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:36:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mfhb3$[email protected]> <83148538[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:11 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19660 alt.politics.white-power:28322 alt.revisionism:36311
Alec Grynspan
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> And all along they kept telling us that Israel needed billions in
>> military assistance which they could only use to buy US military
>> equipment.
>>
>> Are you saying that was not true?
>>
>Only if Israel was to also be the strategic ally that they were –
>according to the Pentagon strategists.
Since every loan has been rolled over and since millions of
Americans have money tied up in Israeli bonds the loss of Israel
as an independent nation would result in hundreds of billions of
red ink on the US ledger in addition to the personal losses to
those who have bought those bonds.
Financial.
Follow the money.
>Israel was calculated to be able to win a war against any combination of
>its enemies within a period of not more than 2 weeks – which they
>realised after the 67 war.
The same calculation can be made, if we are back in the stratigic
evaluation mode, can be made for the army of Thailand with no
equivalent strategic value.
>Yet they kept building up an arsenal.
>That meant that the Soviets had to counter that force. Being far less
>efficient than the US, let alone the Israelis, they had to spend far
>more than the Israelis.
Why would the Soviets care about that force as they would never
be moving in that direction?
>The US would have had to spend over $100 billion to achieve the same
>result – pretty good bargain, doncha think.
Not in the least. Why would the US care if the Soviets had some
strange designs upon Israel? It has no strategic value to the
US.
Anyone paying attention can realize that the US priorties are
Europe, Saudi, Japan and as a fall back the Western Hemisphere,
then North America and finally the US itself.
Given that it is so trivially obvious, what would preserving
Israel have as a value to the US?
But let me ask you this. Would Canada preserve Israel as a
higher priority than western Europe? And if so, why? Where
would Israel fit into Canada’s survival strategy? If it has
strategic value to one country it has strategic value to all
countries, does it not?
>Oops! Sorry – according to your recollection there was no strategic
>value, right?
Precisely.
>Matt – all that you’re showing is that the same arguments that you lost
>in Soapbox (before Dahlman ever showed up) you’re losing now.
Are you hereby declaring victory?
Please present the scenario where Israel has strategic value to
the US or Canado or England or any other country relevent to this
discussion. And keep in mind that an attack upon oil fields
revealed that in the real world Israel had zero value.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:02 PDT 1996
Article: 36312 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:40 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Or something like the subject. Constant pointing to centuries of
problems and pogroms and whatever is popular at the moment.
Turn on the Wayback machine. The fuedal system was no secret.
To become part of it one became a Christian, like it or not. Yet
Jews migrated into this system knowning they were not prepared to
become part of it and could not become part of it without
converting.
Or course maybe the problems started after it was not easy to
leave. But consider that there are still Jews in Europe at all.
Where are the Albegenisians? Where are the Knights Templar?
(Please do not link them to the Rosicrusians.) Yet these are
only minor variations within Chrisitanity. And they were wiped
out by their fellow Christians.
Certainly the Jewish immigrants to Europe knew the Christian
attitude towards other religions. Certainly they had heard the
proud stories of Christians saints who had wiped out other
religions in one way or another.
If you don’t mind folks, I would say that anyone griping about
the way Jews were treated in Europe needs get their own Wayback
machine and explain to their ancestors to go back where they came
>from to save their descendants much grief.
This is not to say that any of those ancestors could know the
future but the could certainly know the past of Christian Europe
at the time they voluntarily migrated there.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:03 PDT 1996
Article: 36313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: Waste of time
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:40:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>In the long history of this newsgroup, persistent trolls have
>been rare. Even the most insulting and prolific Holocaust
>deniers and supremacists soon gave the practice up as a
>waste of time.
>Until Matt Giwer came along.
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>As anyone perusing the above URL will attest, Mr. Giwer’s sole
>purpose in life appears to be the flooding of alt.revisionism
>to the point where the newsgroup will become utterly useless.
>In this, he may even succeed.
>I believe that no purpose can be served by exchanges with Mr.
>Giwer, and have stopped responding to him. I would ask others
>here to give serious thought to doing precisely the same
>thing; perhaps, if everyone simply ignores Mr. Giwer’s
>childish and wasteful tantrums, he will declare himself
>”victorious” and leave the group.
>Let it be soon.
So it is said. So let it be written. Yul Brunner. Ten
Commandments.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:03 PDT 1996
Article: 36314 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:36:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:26 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>> the manner in which they died? That is without even going into
>> other requirements for this to be true.
> Yes.
Do so or would that be a greater challenge than a killfile?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:04 PDT 1996
Article: 36315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:36:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>> arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>
>>>>>
> Sure. I looked at my family tree and counted. The actaul total was 160
>(including relatives by marraige).
What you have presented is that you lost track of relatives in
the old country at best. 5-6 years of a great dispersion without
contact and people lost contact. Is this a surprise to you?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:05 PDT 1996
Article: 36316 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319[email protected]> <4n0sr[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) writes…
>>> [email protected] (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>>> arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>>
>> Sure. I looked at my family tree and counted. The actaul total was 160
>>(including relatives by marraige).
> Well, Tommy, I didn’t lose too many relatives in the Holocaust. I will
> ask my mother (a rather accomplished genealogist) for a count tomorrow.
> I did, though, lose many relatives in the Russian pogroms. I is
> striking to look at my family tree and see how many branches simply end
> early in this century. I suspect I lost 100 relatives to the Russians.
> And even though it happened decades before I was born, it is
> interesting how the scars are carried by the family through the years.
The death of the person keeping the records proves the death of
all of the relatives.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:06 PDT 1996
Article: 36318 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Black Folk
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>tom moran
>[About slavery]
># Certainly this past is far more documented than the Holocaust story,
>I am not, of course, denying slavery. But to claim that it is
>”far more documented” than the Holocaust, may well be the most idiotic
>statement of our crazed “revisionists” ever. Only Moran could
>come up with something like this.
>Ok, maybe the claim by some other “revisionist”, that people can
>protect themselves from cyanide poisoning by holding their breath,
>was equally idiotic. Maybe.
To say this certainly indicates your standards are extremely
suspect. Thousands of manifests all over the New World ports
listing slaves as cargo without any euphamism of “domestic
servant” or “guest laborer.” Thousands of slave transactions on
record without the slightest suggestion of code word to suggest
they were not slaves. But of course you are not denying slavery.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:06 PDT 1996
Article: 36329 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 01:09:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mt[email protected]> <4mu[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 8:13:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Stick it in your ear, Giwer! I wanna make one thing clear to you, you
>stupid asshole. I will not be stopped by you or anyone else…from
>speaking my piece in my own way. You contend that I threatened you at
>one time, and that’s just a lie. You continue to put your bullshit out
>there, and I’ll kick your wrinkled old ass every chance I get. GOT IT?
>CHUCK
Who would want to stop you? Your threats are on Nizkor,
completely uncensored. And as for another threat of physical
violence in this message I am certain it will also be preserved
for posterity, uncensored, uncut.
But I do admit you talk tough for someone in their seventies who
liberated a camp as a fighter pilot.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 36346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Black Folk
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-13.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 12:39:58 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>tom moran
>[About African slaves]
># Thrown over board enmass from ships transporting them to the
># Americas.
>This is so typical, coming from a “revisionist”.
>Note that I am *not* denying the horrendous crimes of slavery. I’m
>just commenting on the double standard used by our cute little
>Nazis who deny the Holocaust.
>What would a “revisionist” like Moran write in response if
>such claims were posted about Nazis?
There are obiviously several differences.
>He would:
>1) Demand physical evidence to support the claim that people were
> thrown from the ships.
The custom of burial at sea is hardly in question here.
>2) Demand to see a document stating that the captured slaves
> were to be thrown from the ships.
Only the dead ones. You missed the custom entirely?
>3) Ask “if they intended to throw them into the water, why did they
> bring them along in the first place”?
Again, only the dead ones were cremated … sorry, wrong subject.
>4) Demand to know each and every detail about this “alleged crime”.
> Like, exactly how many people were thrown over board, etc.
Burial of the dead at sea was not a crime.
>But he doesn’t do all this. He does it only when Nazi crimes are
>discussed. Why the double standard? We know very well why. It is
>quite pathetic of Nazi slime to think one cannot see through
>their deceit. It is also quite pathetic of Nazi slime to try
>and win the support of the Black community.
Because burial at sea was the only practical thing to do prior to
refrigeration. But you didn’t know that.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:08 PDT 1996
Article: 36347 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 06:52:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <30APR96.141[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 1:56:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22752 alt.revisionism:36347
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> And Nizkor is not in the United States (so you can’t possibly mean
>>>>>> them.)
>>>>
>>>>>Minor correction. The Nizkor Project is Canadian. Nizkor USA,
>>>>>however, is American 🙂
>>>>
>>>>>Watch for it… and Nizkor UK.
>>>>>Coming soon to your favourite country.
>>>>
>>>> Incorporated? Sole proprietorship? Partnership?
>>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>
>>> I believe that Ken has already answered this. I recall seeing him say
>>> that they are a not-for-profit organization that has applied for tax
>>> exempt status.
>>
>>>> Are you going to offer any answers for what otherwise appears to
>>>>be a scam?
>>
>>> On what grounds do you believe it appears to be a scam? As best I can
>>> tell they purport to be an educational and archival repository
>>> institution and are presenting educational information via their web
>>> site. What do you surmise that this different than this?
>>
>> My “surmise” is based solely upon the defense offeren for it.
>>
>> My first observation was that it was a religious site based upon
>>contributions being solicited through and accepted by the
>>synagogue.
>>
>> Its defenders jumped in to deny that.
>>
>> Given the defenders are correct I would expect the deductions to
>>be denied due to the lack of a connection between the synagogue
>>and the site.
> The Nizkor people don’t seem too worried about it. As this topic has
> moved far afield from the historicality of the Holocasut, I don’t see
> any point in continuing it.
The subject of this conference is revisionism. The subordinate
relationship of Nizkor to a synagogue is clearly a subject of
those who want to talk about anti-revisionism for religious
reasons.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:08 PDT 1996
Article: 36348 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 06:50:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 1:54:15 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> So post the entirety and the defense testimony for a change. You
>> folks are the one’s posting the testimony.
> Sorry. Doing *your* homework ain’t my job. You have been informed
>as to the location. If you believe that other portions are relevant, look them up.
>
>> I am stating that the part of his conclusion AS POSTED, that is
>> based upon hearsay, is hearsay and not personal knowledge. As a
>> forensic expert he could use his autopsey results and then
>> speculate upon the probable manner in which that death occurred.
>> What is posted goes far beyond that. Given that he did have
>> forensic evidence of death from cyanide then, absent other
>> physical evidence, state only death from cyanide.
>>
>> If there were other physical signs upon the body then he could
>> hypothesize upon the connection between those physical signs and
>> the pathological data. He can certainly say things like, “from
>> my experience” and the like. He certainly can not introduce
>> detailed descriptions of other people that are not supported by
>> the evidence.
> He most certainly can:
> FRE 703: “The facts or data in the particular case upon which an
>expert bases an opinion or inference may be those perceived by or made known
>to the expert at or before the hearing. If a type reasonably relied upon by experts
>in the particular field in forming opinions or inferences upon the subject, the facts
>or data need not be admissible in evidence.”
> The report of the Advisory Committee which wrote this rule states in
>pertinent part: “The third source contemplated by the rule consists of
>presentation of data to the expert outside of court and other than by his own
>perception. In this respect the rule is designed to broaden the basis for expert
>opinions beyond that current in many jurisdictions and to bring the judicial
>practice into line with the practice of the experts themselves when not in court.”
> Game. Set. Match.
The practices of experts themselves is to consult with other
experts in the field, even textbook material, when they lack
sufficient prior experience to be considered an expert in the
aspect at hand in the case. It is not the practice of forensic
pathology experts to conduct interogations or to take testimony.
But you do appear to be easily confused have such a strange oath
for witnesses in Pennsylvania.
>> Since people appear to know something about the OJ case, it would
>> be like the pathologist in that case who testified as I describe
>> here. It would be like him saying that because he had been told
>> about that times that people saw OJ that night, that what he
>> found in the cuts indicated that OJ was guilty.
> Another silly Giwer analogy made even sillier by the fact that Giwer
>seems unable to phrase a legal issue in language acceptable in a legal setting.
>Correctly phrased the question is could a forensic pathologist state to a
>degree of medical certainty that O.J. weilded the knife that killed his wife based,
>in part, upon hearsay testimony of the type usually relied upon by forensic
>pathologists when making their investigations. The answer is, in federal court
>YES:
> FRE 704 (a): “Except as provided in subdivision (b), testimony in the
>form of an opinion or inference otherwise admissible is not objectionable because
>it embraces an ultimate issue to be determined by the trier of fact.”
> I told you long ago to look up the first rule of civil procedure. It seems
>you haven’t. It makes you look even sillier.
After describing wounds what would indicate a person of a certain
height and strength he could, when asked under direct if OJ would
fit the description he had presented, he could say yes or no, as
in fact happened in the case. He could not directly tie OJ as
the person who did it because he fit the evidence he found. That
would be obected to as the pathologist would have no first hand
knowledge of OJ being the party.
The precedent for upholding the objection would be that many
people have similar height and build and nothing distinguishes OJ
>from the rest of them by the evidence. Thus the use of OJ as an
example would be prejudicial to OJ.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:09 PDT 1996
Article: 36359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 04:10:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36359 soc.culture.jewish:49554 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19685 soc.culture.israel:33281
[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>In this case, Israel is the occupying nation. It is no different
>>than holding the Soviet Union to a higher standard than the
>>Afghans a few years ago.
>Jordan has relinquished any claim it had to the West Bank (known to
>Israelis and geographers as Judea and Samaria). Indeed, the League
>of Nations never recognized Jordan’s annexation of the WB.
The League of Nations is defunct.
Egypt also
>has no claim on the Gaza Strip. Palestine is a geographical term;
>there has never in all of history been a Palestinean state, country,
>kingdom or empire.
We are talking about Lebanese and Lebanon.
Neither the WB nor the GS, then, is occupied.
>Israel controls them, though the ownership is in dispute.
I find it interesting the number of red herrings you would
attempt to introduce, oh he who thinks all muslims are Arabs.
>The Golan Heights used to belong to Syria, which still claims it.
>Of course, Syria claims Lebanon as part of “Greater Syria”, too…
A fascinating bit of invention.
>Giwer, you’re the ignorant goofball you’ve always been.
I find it typical that every excuse is used avoid facing the
issue that if Hizbollah terrorists were in Tel Aviv there would
be no air or artillery attacks.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:10:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 6:10:36 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> >One might wonder who sponsored and interpreted the results of this poll?
>>
>> It is sort of surprising that you did not demand the date and
>> page number and then when I can’t provide it, claim that I am
>> making it up. Or are you getting tired of that ploy?
>REALITY CHECK: Given Giwer’s profound lack of supporting his assertions
>with specific evidence, would have asking for the date and page number of
>the article have made any difference? Would Giwer have responded by
>showing a modicum of integrity by supplying them? I think not. As to Giwer
>”making it up” I can only respond that he _has_ made things up before….
>[snip]
>
>> >From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66:
>>
>> It is also surprising for such a stickler on credentials that you
>> would cite a man with a doctorate in planetary atmospheres.
>REALITY CHECK: Giwer, unable to address the argument simply resorts to
>argumentum ad hominem.
Which I extensively addressed and you deleleted. Who are you
playing with but yourself?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 08:34:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 3:39:29 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>d[email protected] (Daniel Keren) writes, citing the idiot Matt
>Giwer:
>># Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz,
>># Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her
>># last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz
>># recovering from typhus.
>>Can someone verify this?
>I doubt it, since Anne Frank was never at Auschwitz. Perhaps a
>better question would be: Where is Giwer getting this nonsense?
>SS infirmary? I know Matt is crazy, he has been for years, but
>this goes well beyond his usual.
Since I posted this, all of references to her (REGEX search under
anne) result in an error message, that the files do not exist.
Go and find out for yourself. And if I remember correctly, this
description is in the preface to the book. That my not be
correct. The original camp may be wrong but the moving while
recovering from typhus is correct.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36368 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 08:51:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>:
>[stuff snipped]
>>>: > Year Jews in Europe Total Jews world wide
>>>: > 1650 700,000 1,750,000
>>>: > 1700 1,000,000 1,250,000
>>>: > 1750 1,250,000 2,250,000
>>>: > 1800 1,500,000 2,500,000
>>>: > 1825 2,730,000 3,281,000
>>>: > 1840 3,600,000 4,500,000
>>>: > 1850 4,127,000 4,764,500
>>>: > 1860 5,200,000 6,000,000
>>>: >”Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89″
>>>:
>>>: > Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>: >European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>: >5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>>:
>>>: Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>: total European population over the same period of time.
>>
>>>Why would one? Is there a worldwide birth rate? A continent-wide
>>>birthrate?
>>
>> Today there is not. But in times without reliable birth control
>>and with there not being a particular health difference between
>>city and farm if there were in fact a significant difference it
>>would certainly be what needs explaining.
> Giwer, you weren’t listening when I told you that you are embarrassing
> yourself by showing you know nothing about demography.
I thought you were pretending to that knowledge so I posted as I
would to such an expert.
You just did it
> again. Birthrate differences between city and farm is one of the
> classic issues of demography. Every demographer knows about it. It is
> even taught in UNDERGRADUATE demography classes. BUT, that wasn’t the
> question. You just brought up city and farm on your own for no reason.
Today, perhaps, but I believe it was Boswell, resident of London,
who was asked the number of children he had and replied something
like, “Six but I don’t count the ones under five.”
I brought up the city v farm issue to cut you off at the pass.
> There is no reason to believe a sub-population grows at the same rate
> as the whole population. There are four basic ways the sub-population
> might grow differently: different birth rate, different death rate,
> different immigration rate, different emigration rate. There are also
> several construct validity issues which might effect the numbers, but
> that is getting into way too much detail. Of the four basics, I can
> put together hypotheses arguing possibilities for all four vectors.
> For example, Jews might have been emigrating from Europe at a different
> rate than non-Jews due to immigration policies in countries on other
> continents.
The difference of course needs to be explained and here we are
talking a higher growth rate for Jews than that the rest of the
populuation Now unless they were in some manner extremely
prolific city dwellers going against the norm as you see it as an
undergraduate we have a problem here. Or at least you have a
problem reconciling your positions in both implied cases.
> And don’t bother responding to me with some counter argument unless you
> actually go educate yourself in this field first. I have no desire to
> carry on an extended argument with you if you are going to be ignorant
> of basic demographic knowledge.
You are the one suggesting the city population growth rate of
Jews was higher than the average for Europe, not me. That would
make them quite outstanding and in need of an explanation.
> [moran’s stuff snipped]
>>>: > By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
>>>: >Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
>>>: >11,487,000 world wide.
>>>:
>>>: It also requires a huge increase in the non-European birth rate
>>>: in those years for no explained reason.
>>
>>>”For no explained reason”? The sociologist has once again reared his ugly
>>>head, and informed us that there must have beem a huge increase in the
>>>non-European birth rate for no explained reason. HAs he looked into this
>>>at all? Of course not.
> The explanation for the increase in the birthrate (in Europe and out)
> was known as “The Industrial Revolution.” Its usually mentioned in the
> intro to Western Civ class. You might want to take it at your
> community college in your copious free time.
At least you interjected on hypothetical explanation. If I am
not mistaken, this is the first in the last four months.
>> I was looking at the non-European to European ratio going from
>>6.5:1 in 1860 to 3:1 in the early 20th century.
> So?
Are you suggesting your above hypothesis?
>>>Both of you — all you’ve done so far is inform us that you don’t think
>>>those are the numbers. Well, how about this —
>>
>>>either (1)show us the proof that those numbers are wrong, or (2)show us
>>>the real numbers, or else (3) stop talking when you have nothing to say.
>>
>> One is merely pointing out an interesting point about the
>>numbers. It may be of interest later. Someone else may find a
>>use for it. It may mean nothing but odd estimates.
> Bah.
I found the complete holohugger agreement on the undressing room
at Krema IV to be of later utility when some jerkoff claimed the
design changes to the Liechenkeller of Krema IV made it more like
a gas chamber than a bomb shelter. Why should not this one come
up later?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 36377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 00:51:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <317b[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 7:51:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer
>[About Zyklon-B]
># That is what it was designed to do be released slowly.
>You claim it was “designed to be released slowly”. So far, we have
>seen the patent for Zyklon, and we have seen what the leading
>scientist of the firm that manufactured it, state exactly the
>opposite than what you claim.
We have been through this many times. Three different carriers
are mentioned in the patent. The time has only been associated
with silica gel which comes considerable smaller than pea sized
and not related to kitty litter save by a porous structure. Even
for the silica gel no temperature was given.
If nothing else you should see that the larger size would slow
release.
Some one said they would post a spec sheet or some such for the
product as used but I have yet to see it.
>In light of this, can you tell us what is your source for
>claiming that it was “designed to be released slowly”?
The persistance time required to kill insects, remember? It was
used to fumigate buildings not just clothing in sealed rooms.
How would you get persistance without slow release? You do
remember all the posts about how long it takes to kill insects,
do you not?
Also,
>can you quantify “slowly”? How much in the first half-hour?
At slightly above room temperature, it takes six hours to release
essentially all of this gas. At freezing it takes thirty hours.
Pick a temperature, put “essentially all” something like 99% or
something and do an exponential curve fit.
Also, without contradiction here, 40% in the first half hour
without qualification as to the time, has been posted without
refutation. That is a far cry from all in 10 minutes but since
a holohugger posted it, there was no objection to it.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:13 PDT 1996
Article: 36378 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 01:04:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49008 alt.revisionism:36378
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>> Speaking of harassment, this organization was kind enough to send
>>me 87 identical copies of the 56k message. Full message upon
>>request. You will notice that this harrassment policy appears to
>>be that of the Government of Israel also.
>>
>>Return-Path:
>>Received: from relay.inter.net.il by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
>>(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
>> id OAA29482; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
>>Received: from israel-info.gov.il ([206.249.129.4]) by
>>relay.inter.net.il (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA05744 for
>>
>>Received: by israel-info.gov.il (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
>> id AA00849; Thu, 9 May 1996 23:58:16 +0200
>>Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:58:16 +0200
>>From: gopher@israel-info (message)
>>Message-Id: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: èàðñì åùâåäù èøåè÷åãä úåãåáò úîéùø
>>Content-Type: text
>>Apparently-To: [email protected]
>>
> You seem to have been spammed by someone who has routed Israeli junk
> mail to you by the bushel full. Unlikely Israel itself is involved.
> It is probably Marduk (whomever he is this week {snicker snicker}).
> While I can’t say I agree with spamming people with junk mail, I can
> say, “It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.”
Learn to read headers some day. What are you going to claim
gov.il means? Be creative so all the holohuggers can swear that
it is true even though it is false. Play with the address and
find its website.
And of course until I get a response stating that action has been
taken against the person who did it, it remains the
responsibility and action of the government of Israel and
evidence of what the Israeli government will do. I will post any
responses I receive in the matter.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:13 PDT 1996
Article: 36384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 01:43:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 8:43:25 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article
>Daniel Keren
>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[About Zyklon-B pellets]
>>
>># You forget that one of your holohuggers proved the could
>># not have been blue because HCN only forms that color with iron.
>>
>>Since you are in the habit of misquoting people, it would be
>>better if you give the exact citation. Frankly, I don’t believe
>>one word you write. So post the excerpt you refer to.
>Dr. Keren is indeed correct to be suspicious of Mr. Giwer.
>What’s wrong with this logic:
>HCN is not blue except when complexed to a metal such as iron.
>Zyklon-B could not have a blue color.
>Mr. Mazal has provided evidence that one of the forms of Zyklon-B was
>silica gel impregnated with HCN. Silica gel itself can be blue.
But as we know diatomaceous earth which was the carrier for the
form used at Auschwitz is grey yet it is described as blue.
This very strongly indicates the person knew about prussian blue
before he created the description of the coloration of the
pellets.
Or, if this is a very true and correct eyewitness report, then,
because of the color, he was not describing Zyklon-B at all and
we have to look for another substance that was used for gassing
that fits all of the other descriptions.
So either Zyklon-B was made up or it was not the lethal substance
used.
We are left with no other conclusion.
Of course those who can not reason will go ballistic rather than
address the issue. And to avoid many wasted messages go to the
Auschwitz FAQ and look for the description of it as “blue chalk
pellets about the size of peas” and avoid the old “prove it is
blue” routine. Also please avoid the “it might have been silica
gel” routine by this same description.
=====
And for you DK, what is it about my knowledge of the subject you
are going to continue to question?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:14 PDT 1996
Article: 36386 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:01:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 9:05:43 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>CHUCK FERREE wrote:
>moran, are we talking here about jars of pickles? Or cans of deadly
>substance? Please give me some kind of rational for debating whether
>or not the guys what opened the cans of Zyclon B used screwdrivers,
>can openers…(German ones) chewed the lids off, or unscrewed them. It
>doesn’t mean a thing, you idiot. The poison was used, if they prefered
>to put the stuff in baggies, what the hell. Pray tell, what makes one
>bit of difference? You just don’t get it, pal. The pellets came in a
>can designed by guys who knew it was a killer, so they certainly
>wanted to protect their fellow countrymen, and they put the stuff in
>containers which had to be handled with care. Read the label on
>whatever you spray your garden with. If you do, you won’t use it at
>all, pal!
Except that Professor Green has just established that Zyklon-B
could not have been used because it could not be blue and that is
the description of the witnesses.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:15 PDT 1996
Article: 36387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:16:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 9:21:26 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Of course they do. But that statement is not limited to politics
>> but includes every recipient. Thus they could not truthfully
>> make that statement regarding Nizkor unless it is a subsidiary
>> organization. But you folks say that it is not.
> That is incorrect. There is no accounting for individuals only
>organizations.
Why not simply cut to the chase, killfile challenged one. Get
whoever is in charge of the site on line to explain the
relationship. I mean the person the person who actually pays the
bills so we can get an answer once and for all.
What is Nizkor trying to hide? Where is the full disclosure of
its financial relationships with the synagogue? It is the claim
that there is no such relationship that makes this whole
contribution deal look shady.
In case you have missed it
Victoria, B.C.’s Congregation Emmanu-El has agreed to assist the
Nizkor Project in
accomplishing these objectives by accepting donations, for a
period of time, and providing
Canadian tax receipts for donors.
The “director” participates here. Why not encourage him to post
what he has certainly fully disclosed to the Canadian government
if in fact there has been an application for tax exempt status.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:16 PDT 1996
Article: 36388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:19:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>Matt Giwer writes:
>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
> Clear the area everyone. Tom Moran is doing math… without a net!
>>> Giwer, you have a legitimate consideration here. We have to
>>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. In that case we would
>>>have to multiply the Jewish figures presented by that ratio. Whoa.
>>> So we have the Jewish 2% – lets make it 5%, giving them some
>>>accomodation. So the 5% increased 7 1/2 times in the 210 years.
>>>Leaving 95%. For every 5%, and in line with the Jewish increase of
>>>4,500,000 for their 5%, we have the 4,500,000, times 19 = 85,000,000.
>>> Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>>>would be 220,000,000.
>>> Wow.
> Tommy, I have looked at this and looked at this. I don’t know what to
> say. For once you have left me speechless. ;/
> I don’t know how to react to something this stupid.
>> At least someone wants to stay on topic for this conference.
>> It is quite a number.
> And the 163IQ is buying this garbage. Sheesh.
As I noted, discrepencies would need explanation. That is all.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:16 PDT 1996
Article: 36390 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31948947.305712@news.pacificnet.net> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 9:30:10 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> This is a clarification and replacement to the numerical
>>ciphering posted previously. The numerical ciphering remains the same,
>>only the path of recogning is clarified. Sorry for any inconvenience
>>the initial post may have caused.
>>
>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. The above would have us
>>believe the 2% increased in population 4,500,000 in the 210 years. In
>>that case we would have to calculate the remaining 98% population with
>>the same ratio the Jews claim.
>> In order to give the Jewish claims some acomodation lets say
>>they made up 5% of the population. So the 5% increased 4,500,000 in
>>the 210 year period, and we assume the other 95% would increase in the
>>same ratio. So 5% increased 4,500,000. There are twenty 5s in a
>>hundred, leaving 19 of the 5s to be the non-Jewish population. Thus
>>19 X 4,500,000 = 85,500,000. All during the time of massive famines,
>>high birth mortalities, low average life spans, plagues and war.
>>
>> Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>>would be 220,000,000.
>> If the Jewish population ratio was only 1%, 440,000,000
>>non-Jewish people would have been born during the period.
>> If it was only 1/2%, which it could very well have been,
>>880,000,000.
>>
>> Half a percent, 1%, 2%, 5%, either way the claimed population
>>increase is absurd.
> The only thing that is absurd here is your math. Sheesh!
> Oh, my mistake. Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
> math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.
> This stuff is laughable.
Since you have determined that it is laughable that means you
have done the calculations in such manner as you believe correct.
Why not post the work you have done?
That was rhetoric of course as you did nothing but deem them
laughable, or perhaps you can claim that it is “intuitively
obvious” or some such. But the least you could would be to
demonstrate your claim of laughable so that your math can be
reviewed.
But you will not do that.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:17 PDT 1996
Article: 36391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:31:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
> [Most of Moran’s psot deleted. I responded to it several months ago
> when he first posted this rubbish. Anyone interested can visit
> Dejanews and read the exchange.]
>>>>> Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>>>
>>>> Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>>total European population over the same period of time.
> Note that Giwer makes and assertion: Delta of Jewish population in
> Europe is expected to equal the delta of total population in Europe
> over the given period of 210 years.
Uniformitarian assumptions have been one of the mainstays of
science to point out what anomalies are in need of explanation.
But you did not know that.
>>> Great! Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>> lack of knowledge in. There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>> a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>> population as a whole. Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>> and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>>
>>> I don’t know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>> that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>> come up with.
>>
>> Which of your explanations would you like to suggest it true and
>>support? Why would you not check the population of Europe in the
>>same time frame before you see whether you have to explain it as
>>being greater or less than these numbers?
> I have no desire to suggest any of my candidate explantions are being
> true for Europe over these 210 years. I have absolutely no idea what
> the European population was (and I don’t care enough to walk over the
> the almanac and check.) And I don’t trust that Tommy got the Jewish
> population figures right.
No, Galileo, I will not look through your telescope.
> I didn’t argue that the two deltas were unequal; I argued that you have
> no idea what you are talking about when you assert that “one would
> expect” them to be equal. I am not disputing Tommy. Been there; done
> that. Tommy is a moron.
> I am simply arguing that you ONCE AGAIN opened your mouth on a subject
> you know nothing about. And you got it wrong.
And you have responded to something at which you will not look.
That is an act of faith not of reason.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:18 PDT 1996
Article: 36392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen’s thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:34:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 9:36:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>> Do you happen to own a baseball team?
>>
>>> Interesting question, troll. I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
>>> fan. I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
>>> fielded in the 70s.
>>
>> Then you would not remember Ted Kluseuski would you.
> Well enough to know you spelled his name wrong, asshole.
It has been longer for me than for you youngster.
>>> I boycotted baseball in ’93 because of Marge Schott. Everytime I think
>>> about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
>>> stupid.
>>
>>> What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
>>> things she says. And, as you haven’t put forward any arguments
>>> disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
>>> trolling once again.
>>
>> Have you missed the latest outburst? To the effect that everyone
>>knows he started off doing good things and then went crazy?
>>
>> What might the difference be between that and
>>
>>I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>>>> possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>>>> get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man.
>>
>> What if Marge Schott has said those words?
> It would be evidence her IQ shot up 50 points, asshole.
In her own style, that is what she said. You two sound the same.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:19 PDT 1996
Article: 36399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer’s Wasted Breath
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:48:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:52:07 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>RANDOM THOUGHTS FOR MATT GIWER
>So let’s move on to other things, and if you hear something you don’t
>believe, ignore it.
Move on to things that are not the subject of this group?
Would you make the same recommendation for other conferences
where there are continual disagreements?
That would result in either a lot of groups inappropriately named
or their shutting down for lack of interest.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:19 PDT 1996
Article: 36400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!neonlights.uoregon.edu!platform.uoregon.edu!netnews2.nwnet.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:58:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:00:53 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>Krema I in Auschwitz
>[Quoted in “KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS”, p. 176]
>————————————————————-
> … The “disinfectors” were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>inscription “Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>to be opened by trained personnel only!”. The tins were filled to
>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>
You forget that one of your holohuggers proved the could not have
been blue because HCN only forms that color with iron.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:20 PDT 1996
Article: 36403 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:06:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <316a61e7.2309[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 1:10:09 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer
># Daniel Keren ([email protected]) writes:
>## The bottom line is that diesels can produce white smoke. This
>## was proved in the Pattle et. al. experiments.
># You appear to be describing a condition in which the mixture was
># so rich that the oil was pumped through completely unburned and
># appeared out the exhaust as a hot aerosol.
>Are you then retracting your claim that diesels can’t produce
>white smoke?
It is not smoke. It is vaporized oil. More like fog. When the
implication was death by CO it had to have been burned. We no
longer have death by CO but by suffocation from oil in the lungs.
>Pattle et. al. give a fuel-air ratio of 0.033 for this running
>condition. They say that the white smoke “apparently consisted mainly
>of unburnt oil”.
Bingo. Not smoke.
># In that case you would have these buildings saturated with oil
># quite quickly,
>Define and quantify “saturated” and “quickly”.
It is very hard to quantity as you know. Given the temperature
it is going to condense on the cooler walls immediatly. Each use
would put a layer on the walls to limit of what doesn’t roll off.
How many exposures to complete saturation would depend upon
porosity.
># making them major fire hazards. One spark from those trains and
># the entire complex would be up in flames.
>At what temperatures would the walls “saturated with oil”
>burst into flames? Re the trains – what, exactly, are you
>claiming? That they were right next to the gas chambers?
The trains, the open pit burning, it is clear there were plenty
of sources of fire. The question is hardly what temperature as
any flame will ignite oil. You even have the diesel engines them
selves. One exhaust backfire during operation and the building
explodes.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:21 PDT 1996
Article: 36410 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 06:50:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36410 soc.culture.jewish:49591 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19701 soc.culture.israel:33298
Roger Froikin
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >2) Palestineans fighters continue to mount terrorist attacks
>> > against Israeli civilians.
>>
>> Then why are they not in the news?
>I’d like to know the answer to that too. I’ve had friends killed while
>driving home from work with nothing reaching the West about it, and of
>course the bullet hole in my leg never was reported in the Western Press
>in spite of the fact that I had family in the USA and elsewhere who
>might be interested.
>In short, when it’s one or two Jews hurt or killed, no one reports it
>outside the Israeli Hebrew press. What does get reported are the
>spectacular bombings of busses or public areas.
You miss the point entirely. The entire current news coverage is
the peace with the Palestinians. Yet the claim here is that
while peace has been officially proclaimed between Israel and the
Palestinians, the claim is that there have been ongoing terrorist
attacks by Palestinians.
That is what I asking after, not history.
>> >3) Revenge is a very Middle Eastern emotion, though it is
>> > uncommon among Jews. Contrast the actions of victorious
>> > Arab armies and the contrast with the IDF.
>>
>> Middle Eastern Jews do not have a Middle Eastern emotion. How
>> strange. At least be honest about Jews for a change and stop
>> pretending they are “forgive your enemy” Christians. Revenge?
>> When you agree the PM is lying through his teeth to cause this
>> attack just to get reelected? Or does he only lie in certain
>> narrow areas?
>I disagree with Jake on this 100 %. The emotion is there. It is there
>in me. OIt’s there in everyone I know. It’s normal to be there. The
>difference between Jews and Arabs in the Mid East is the Jews have
>leaders that tell them to sublimate these emotions. The Arabs have
>leaders that stir up the emotions and use them for violence.
>What kind of violence might there have been had some American leaders
>taken advantage of the emotion after the Oklahoma bombing to stir people
>to violence ?
Bill Clinton tried to do so. First against radio talk show
people and then against citizen militias. He perhaps not to
violence but certainly used the event against them and to some
extent succeeded. And he got away with it. Unless you hold it
is different than a matter of degree, we can get on with your
next question.
>> It is over as you know. And as anyone claiming knowledge of the
>> Middle East knows, exaggerated and flowery language is a
>> trademark of the speech pattern, such as the mother of all wars.
>> Even eternal jihads don’t last forever.
>Wrong. People said the same about Hitler – that his rhetoric was
>emotional and full of hyperbole for effect. Too often leaders’ rhetoric
>creates responses that push the leadership into condoning what they
>might not have condoned otherwise. King Hussein speaks Arabic much
>better than Arafat and he seems to be able to do very well without the
>kind of language that threatens Jews.
Arafat’s last call for action against Israel was the total
nonviolence of the Intifada. It succeeded and finally brought
peace between the two. It is also agreed he does not quite have
Ghandi’s style. But then he did not have to deal with the
conditions Ghandi did where his fellow Indians had been disarmed,
which Ghandi condemned the British for doing.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 09:28:22 PDT 1996
Article: 36411 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS I – XII
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 06:50:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <317ce550.31660[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 1:54:25 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>:
>: XIII.
>: According to testimony posted by Professor Keren, the Germans
>: designed the cans that held Zyklon B in such a way that they had to
>: opened with a hammer and chisel.
>And those idiot American paint companies did the same thing. Can you
>believe it?
Amazing that you would imply paint cans in America are opened
with a hammer and chisel. Are there no limits to which you will
not sink?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 10:27:32 PDT 1996
Article: 19673 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,aus.flame,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,uk.flame,ba.israelis,soc.culture.israel,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer admits lying
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[email protected] (Suck my Dambik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer
>> >[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> >>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn’t figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to
>> >>: >have 100% accuracy. That’s not humanly possible, except perhaps in a
>> >>: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness
>> >>: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call
>> >>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there’s a
>> >>: >problem. But often a witness who can’t remember whatcolor socks a robber
>> >>: >was wearing isn’t then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect
>> >>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.
>> >
>> >>: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>> >>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>> >>: the ‘engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes’ story that is sworn to by
>> >>: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>> >>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>> >>: skeptical response.
>> >
>> >>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already
>> >>posted the “answer.”
>> >
>> > That the eyewitness was lying of course.
>>
>> And there we have it. The Giwer-troll rejects the possibility of
>> error; any false statement by an eyewitness must be a lie and no
>> alternative hypothesis can be entertained.
>>
>> Therefore the Giwer-troll must admit he lied about the UN Declaration
>> of Human Rights requiring a jury trial. His attempt to claim it was a
>> mistake is another lie, as he has declared the immutable principle that a
>> witness making a false statement is lying, never simply mistaken.
>>
>> [another big snip]
>>
>>
>> > Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
>> >minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
>> >juvenile ridicule and such.
>>
>> And the Giwer-troll has admitted to being kicked off a large number of
>> them, presumably for the juvenile ridicule he has engaged in here. Not to
>> mention the lies and intellectual dishonesty. I find it incredible that
>> he can believe he is fooling anyone at this point save for the already
>> deluded. This really does look more like clinical mental illness than
>> rational tactical lying, as a reasonably intelligent liar using lies as a
>> means to an end would be careful not to be so bloody obvious about it.
>This is the same Matt Giwer who has been posting
>pro-tobacco-industry propaganda over on alt.smokers. His latest
>little anti-Semitic “gem” said:
I wonder if you think anyone is going to believe I have ever
posted to that conference.
But of course any dumbdick will try any smear tactic in their
quest for their control of smokers.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 10:48:46 PDT 1996
Article: 48943 of alt.conspiracy
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,aus.flame,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,uk.flame,ba.israelis,soc.culture.israel,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer admits lying
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Date: 12 May 1996 07:10:46 +0200
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[email protected] (Suck my Dambik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer
>> >[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> >>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn’t figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to
>> >>: >have 100% accuracy. That’s not humanly possible, except perhaps in a
>> >>: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness
>> >>: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call
>> >>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there’s a
>> >>: >problem. But often a witness who can’t remember whatcolor socks a robber
>> >>: >was wearing isn’t then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect
>> >>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.
>> >
>> >>: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>> >>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>> >>: the ‘engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes’ story that is sworn to by
>> >>: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>> >>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>> >>: skeptical response.
>> >
>> >>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already
>> >>posted the “answer.”
>> >
>> > That the eyewitness was lying of course.
>>
>> And there we have it. The Giwer-troll rejects the possibility of
>> error; any false statement by an eyewitness must be a lie and no
>> alternative hypothesis can be entertained.
>>
>> Therefore the Giwer-troll must admit he lied about the UN Declaration
>> of Human Rights requiring a jury trial. His attempt to claim it was a
>> mistake is another lie, as he has declared the immutable principle that a
>> witness making a false statement is lying, never simply mistaken.
>>
>> [another big snip]
>>
>>
>> > Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
>> >minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
>> >juvenile ridicule and such.
>>
>> And the Giwer-troll has admitted to being kicked off a large number of
>> them, presumably for the juvenile ridicule he has engaged in here. Not to
>> mention the lies and intellectual dishonesty. I find it incredible that
>> he can believe he is fooling anyone at this point save for the already
>> deluded. This really does look more like clinical mental illness than
>> rational tactical lying, as a reasonably intelligent liar using lies as a
>> means to an end would be careful not to be so bloody obvious about it.
>This is the same Matt Giwer who has been posting
>pro-tobacco-industry propaganda over on alt.smokers. His latest
>little anti-Semitic “gem” said:
I wonder if you think anyone is going to believe I have ever
posted to that conference.
But of course any dumbdick will try any smear tactic in their
quest for their control of smokers.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 10:48:46 PDT 1996
Article: 49061 of alt.conspiracy
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:20:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49061 alt.revisionism:36441
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 05:03:52 GMT, [email protected](Charles) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Can anyone suggest how I might deter him from continuing what I
>>consider to be immature behavior — not to mention an abuse of the
>>Internet?
>If what you say is true, you are being harrassed. Advise his ISP of
>the harrassment, and cc a copy to Mr. Alpert as a courtesy. Above all,
>be polite, and avoid references to Mr. Alpert’s race / religion /
>ethnicity: such references do not garner sympathy from decent people.
That does work on ISPs such as internet direct where it is
company policy.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 36441 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:20:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49061 alt.revisionism:36441
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 05:03:52 GMT, [email protected](Charles) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Can anyone suggest how I might deter him from continuing what I
>>consider to be immature behavior — not to mention an abuse of the
>>Internet?
>If what you say is true, you are being harrassed. Advise his ISP of
>the harrassment, and cc a copy to Mr. Alpert as a courtesy. Above all,
>be polite, and avoid references to Mr. Alpert’s race / religion /
>ethnicity: such references do not garner sympathy from decent people.
That does work on ISPs such as internet direct where it is
company policy.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 36451 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:09:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>This is a repost for Mr. Giwer, who may feel free to deal with what is
>contained, rather than edit parts out and refuse to answer the rest on the
>basis that he “wasn’t talking to me.”
You mean to claim your questions here were not rhetorical?
>Jeremy A. Litt ([email protected]) wrote:
>: : .CA> <[email protected]>
>: Distribution:
>:
>: Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: : Laura Finsten
>: :
>: : >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: : >>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: :
>: : >>>Matt Giwer
>: : >>
>: : >>>[To [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt)]
>: :
>: : >>>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt’s response,
>: : >>>and posted:
>: :
>: : >>># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>: : >>># on you parents, get back to me. In the mean time, get back to
>: : >>># your books to help your GPA. You are going to need it in the
>: : >>># real world.
>: :
>: : >>>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer’s more-or-less
>: : >>>standard reply?
>: :
>: : >>>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.
>: :
>: : >> To whom? People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?
>: :
>: : >STUPID TROLL ALERT: Giwerundian translation: People who study
>: : >law know nothing about law. Those who study chemistry know nothing
>: : >about chemistry. And only an ignorant, self-satisfied illogical
>: : >troll who claims to have a 30 year old degree in physical sciences
>: : >could possibly know anything about history.
>: :
>: : Why you amen corner folks would believe in clearly demonstrated
>: : liars is beyond me.
>:
>: Hmmm. Perhaps because the only place we’ve been “clearly demonstrated” to
>: be liars is in your mind.
>:
>: YOu, on the other hand, when clearly demonstrated to be lying, just go on
>: repeating the claim. Or have your changed your mind about religious
>: groups being the only ones which are tax-exempt?
>:
>: : Even you should know that you have never heard an oath saying
>: : that the “EVIDENCE I am about to give” is what a witness swears
>: : to. Yet our residence dillitante has made the claim that is the
>: : oath in Pennsylvania.
>:
>: Mr. Giwer, help us out here. As near as I can tell, your only source for
>: your assertion concerning the oath is your own testimony, concerning 3
>: times in court 20 years ago. As you have stated that testimony is not
>: evidence, why is yours any less so? As this was so long ago, what do you
>: think is the probative value of your “recollections” as compared to the
>: more recent recollections of a practising lawyer?
>:
>: : You know that the .sig of our resident chemist has been changed
>: : so as not to implicate the university he claims assosiation with
>: : AFTER his bone burning and HCN claims were dealt with. And of
>: : course you know his assertion 750 calories from 1/10 gram of
>: : organics has not been answered.
>:
>: No, we don’t “know” that. As every person here has seen, even the
>: n”non-science” types, Mr. Green has repeatedly distinguished between
>: “bones” not burning (false) and certain “chemicals” in bones not burning.
>: Everyone else has managed to notice this, except you. Why do you refuse
>: to do so, and why do you continue parroting your lie?
>:
>: : An honest person such as your self should realize you are being deceived.
>: :
>: : But of course you want to be decieved as it supports your
>: : beliefs.
>:
>: If she wanted to be deceived, Mr. Giwer, she would believe you. But given
>: how blatant your lies are, and how easily disproven, she has not done so,
>: nor has anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty.
>:
>: You’re a troll, Mr. Giwer. What do you care if you’re believed or not?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36452 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:12:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3194ab76.9055979@news.pacificnet.net> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>
>>> The only thing that is absurd here is your math. Sheesh!
>>>
>>> Oh, my mistake. Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
>>> math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.
>>>
>>> This stuff is laughable.
>>>
>> Mittleman’s method of responding to a mathematical statement.
>>He’s so smug. He’s so pert. He’s so matter of fact. But no
>>mathematical rebuke.
> Hey! I may be smug, but I ain’t pert!
> I didn’t respond because your math was so stupid I didn’t know where to
> start.
Start anywhere. It should not be hard for a math expert such as
yourself.
I didn’t worry too much though as anyone dumb enough to accept
> your math isn’t too much of a threat.
> Tommy, your arithmetic was OK, but you set up your word problem all
> wrong – and you made several stupid assumptions which led you to your
> outrageous answer. You knew your answer was outrageous, that was the
> point of your post. What you apparently didn’t consider was that the
> reason your answer was outrageous was that you set up the problem all
> wrong.
> Should I go back and do your work for you? No, its too much trouble
> and your whole post is so stupid it really doesn’t require rebutting.
> I’ll save my energy for the more threatening arguments.
It is agreed. You are unable to do so.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:46 PDT 1996
Article: 36453 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Q&A revised
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:21:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 2:22:01 AM CDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What was the holocaust?
>> >> First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million
>> >> people went into concentration and work camps and about a million
>> >> emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared.
>> >>
>> >very large clip
>>
>> >An interesting hypothesis, and that’s all it is.
>>
>> personally witnessed almost all of the
>> >points the other writer claims didn’t happen, or happened differently
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> more impressive that you claim to have witnessed people being
>> gassed. Why did you not save them rather than witness them being
>> gassed?
>Giwer, you stupid son of a bitch, fucking drunk asshole and
>$@%^%#*&^&%$#@!!!$%# (it gives me pleasure!)
Calm down, boy, it is only a hobby.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel’s arsenal (was: Israle “fighting to win”)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:26:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4mp7dd$o[email protected]> <831662[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28406 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19720 alt.revisionism:36454
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Les Griswold
># Yes, we can thank Johnathan “Stealing nuke secrets from the U.S.
># is my racial obligation” Pollard for that.
>1) Israel is reported to have built nukes as early as the
> 1960’s, long before the Pollard affair.
Not quite. The US gave Israel a research reactor in the early
60s that was capable of producing plutonium.
The actual design and manufacture of the bombs was some 20 years
later in cooperation with the Union of South Africa in its
previous incarnation.
The time between first manufacture and first testing is the only
thing in question.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36461 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still no proof, or too much….
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:55:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>> > I will note in passing that reading comprehension often suffers under
>> > a bourbon of high proof.
>>
>> LOL! You give Giwer’s taste for fine liquor too much credit, I fear! His
>> tastes probably run more along the lines of Thunderbird. Or methanol,
>> considering his rampant blindness to the evidence….
>Has anyone considered mezcal or tequila as the agent employed to make said
>gentleman remain in a perpetual state of bewilderment? The high concentration
>of alkaloids (mezcaline, for example) in these beverages coupled with over-salted
>Margarita glasses would tend to make the imbiber totally irrational.
Have you folks ever considered that your obsession with my
imagined drinking habits suggest you are folks members of AA?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:53:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 2:58:03 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Harry Katz) writes:
>> Gregory Taylor ([email protected]) writes:
>[text deleted for brevity]
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>>
>> When Mr. Giwer is around, all truth needs protection.
>Truth needs no protection. It stands on its own. It is the deceitful
>gentleman, Mr. Giwer, who needs protection. It is our job, nay,
>our duty, to protect said deceitful gentleman from the inner poisons
>that color his articles.
But you defend the “truth” that diatomaceous earth soaked in HCN
is blue rather than grey as sworn to by an eminent chemist
participant of this conference. What kind of truth is that?
I have posted many more “truths” that are not conceivably true by
any stretch of the imagination that it would be quite difficult
to ennumerate them all in this message.
Yet you defend them all. Why?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 36466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:32:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:34:18 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22811 alt.revisionism:36466
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>> So when is BC or the national government going to formally grant
>>Nizkor it own power to give out tax receipts?
> What does it matter?
It will make them appear less a subsidiary organization to the
synagogue and thus a religious organization as I originally
noted. That has apparently been denied although, as with so many
of the games played here, it has not been directly denied. The
defenders merely immiatedly shifted the discussion to tax exempt
organizations.
>> Somone should certainly post Canandian law giving a synagogue the
>>ability to another orgnaization.
> Why? If you care, do your own research.
I neither intend to make a contribution nor would the answer mean
anything to me in this country. However, I would think
potentional Canadian contributors would be interested.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sun May 12 12:55:40 PDT 1996
Article: 36472 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:17:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 4:21:25 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>[About Treblinka]
># What was the size of the larger ones?
>About 4 x 8 meters.
About the size of one of those trailers people like to call
pre-built homes.
># What has been posted here are a few bone fragments, some human
># hair and a little bone ash. Nothing like the pound per square
># foot of bone ash.
> “Poland’s Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes reported
>that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous
>human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in
>the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site
>shortly after the end of the war”.
Five acres makes it worse. Someone had posted it was a 40 arce
complex to I was dividing by 40. Now we are up to 8 lbs of bone
ash per square foot. What did they mean by “large” quantities?
># You refuse to answer my question about those rooms and continue
># to claim I said something that I did not say.
>What questions?
Now you are.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 13:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41207 of alt.slack
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sun4nl!xs4all!mail
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,aus.flame,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,uk.flame,ba.israelis,soc.culture.israel,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer admits lying
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,aus.flame,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,uk.flame,ba.israelis,soc.culture.israel,alt.slack,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.smokers,alt.flame,alt.syntax.tactical,alt.support.non-smokers,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 12 May 1996 07:10:46 +0200
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References: <[email protected]> <4m09ep$v5h@news. <4[email protected]> <4m90c5[email protected]> <4mvpeu$[email protected]> <199605110107.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Suck my Dambik) wrote:
>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer
>> >[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> >>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn’t figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to
>> >>: >have 100% accuracy. That’s not humanly possible, except perhaps in a
>> >>: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness
>> >>: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call
>> >>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there’s a
>> >>: >problem. But often a witness who can’t remember whatcolor socks a robber
>> >>: >was wearing isn’t then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect
>> >>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.
>> >
>> >>: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>> >>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>> >>: the ‘engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes’ story that is sworn to by
>> >>: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>> >>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>> >>: skeptical response.
>> >
>> >>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already
>> >>posted the “answer.”
>> >
>> > That the eyewitness was lying of course.
>>
>> And there we have it. The Giwer-troll rejects the possibility of
>> error; any false statement by an eyewitness must be a lie and no
>> alternative hypothesis can be entertained.
>>
>> Therefore the Giwer-troll must admit he lied about the UN Declaration
>> of Human Rights requiring a jury trial. His attempt to claim it was a
>> mistake is another lie, as he has declared the immutable principle that a
>> witness making a false statement is lying, never simply mistaken.
>>
>> [another big snip]
>>
>>
>> > Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
>> >minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
>> >juvenile ridicule and such.
>>
>> And the Giwer-troll has admitted to being kicked off a large number of
>> them, presumably for the juvenile ridicule he has engaged in here. Not to
>> mention the lies and intellectual dishonesty. I find it incredible that
>> he can believe he is fooling anyone at this point save for the already
>> deluded. This really does look more like clinical mental illness than
>> rational tactical lying, as a reasonably intelligent liar using lies as a
>> means to an end would be careful not to be so bloody obvious about it.
>This is the same Matt Giwer who has been posting
>pro-tobacco-industry propaganda over on alt.smokers. His latest
>little anti-Semitic “gem” said:
I wonder if you think anyone is going to believe I have ever
posted to that conference.
But of course any dumbdick will try any smear tactic in their
quest for their control of smokers.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 13:59:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 01:19:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 11 8:23:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> It is difficult to imagine anyone so bereft of memory as to have
>> forgotten the exchanges at the time where I pointed out he said
>> Israel as opposed to the claim he has said Jews.
> Sure I remember it. You lied.
No one pointed that out at the time. But then of course that is
traditional here. As when I first pointed out months ago that I
was called anti-semitic and neo-nazi first there was silence.
Now that it time has passed there is the claim that that too is a
lie.
>> What was posted was the same libel that was originally produced
>> by FAIR and their deliberate misquotations were well known befoer
>> some lying jerk-off claimed it was about Jews but failed to
>> doctor the post to convert Israel to Jews.
> Sorry, They were not misquotes. I saw him make the statements on
>network television.
As they were copied from FAIR does that mean you were a Buchanan
follower or that you work for FAIR? Does that mean you missed
the change of a question into a statement?
>> You are very uninformed if you are not aware of the genesis of
>> the source material.
> The genesis of the source material is a tape of MacLaughlin Group
>where he made the statements.
There was MORE than one statement and they were compiled by FAIR.
It was started as a liberal response to the conservative AIM. If
I were you I would spend more time learning about partisan US
politics instead of wasting all that time trying to figure out
how to make a killfile work.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 17:03:40 PDT 1996
Article: 36497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:39:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3173ac60.46345[email protected]> <3177a686.933807[email protected]> <31794635.166785[email protected]> <[email protected]> <5MAY199618253347@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mn36[email protected]> <4mpc <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 2:43:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: Because in the US only the IRS can establish who and for what
>: >: purposes such tax receipts can be granted.
>:
>: >Congratulations, Mr. GIwer! You have succesfully removed from Congress
>: >its power to determine taxation! Let’s see, you’ve taken away the
>: >Congrssional War Power, now the tax power, — and given both to the
>: >Executive Branch! What’s next — the Executive exclusive power to
>: >determine who can immigrate to this country?
>:
>: Do you truly confuse that with an intelligent response?
>:
>: But in fact you forgot to give similar power to the President who
>: signs the bills into law. Even in stupidity you fail.
>Mr. Giwer, aside from the inanity of your response to question above, I
>have decided that I am no longer going to follow you so far off-topic for
>this newsgroup. If you wish to continue this discussion, I will be happy
>to continue it in the appropriate newsgroup,
>alt.politics.usa.constitution. as it is not germaine to the historical
>nature of the Holocaust.
You are the one who took it off topic, not me.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Sun May 12 17:03:41 PDT 1996
Article: 36513 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:38:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <9MAY199617451266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4[email protected]> <4mv[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) writes…
>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>: [email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>:
>>: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>: >>Dr. Irving Moskowitz “says he is merely doing the ‘”natural thing for
>>: >>a Jew”‘.
>>: >> He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>>: >>Holocaust.
>>: >> Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>>: >>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>>: >>at it.
>>:
>>: > You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
>>: > relatives?
> Looks like Matt Giwer considers this *fun* also…
>>: >> One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a “natural thing” to
>>: >>assert.
>>:
>>: > Especially if it happened.
>>:
>>: >> Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why “the
>>: >>natural thing” is to just blurt out a gross fabrication.
>>:
>>: > Well, I have never heard of the man so I can’t assert I know what he
>>: > said is true, but consider the following:
>>:
>>: > As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
>>: > killed by the Nazi’s, it makes sense that several of the survivors
>>: > would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.
>>:
>>: Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>>: the manner in which they died? That is without even going into
>>: other requirements for this to be true.
> If I had 132 relatives killed over a six year period during one macro
> act of genocide, I certainly could. Asshole.
Do so.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:53 PDT 1996
Article: 36554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:44:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 6:46:51 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> > FRE 703: “The facts or data in the particular case upon which an
>> >expert bases an opinion or inference may be those perceived by or made known
>> >to the expert at or before the hearing. If a type reasonably relied upon by experts
>> >in the particular field in forming opinions or inferences upon the subject, the facts
>> >or data need not be admissible in evidence.”
>>
>> > The report of the Advisory Committee which wrote this rule states in
>> >pertinent part: “The third source contemplated by the rule consists of
>> >presentation of data to the expert outside of court and other than by his own
>> >perception. In this respect the rule is designed to broaden the basis for expert
>> >opinions beyond that current in many jurisdictions and to bring the judicial
>> >practice into line with the practice of the experts themselves when not in court.”
>>
>> > Game. Set. Match.
>>
>> The practices of experts themselves is to consult with other
>> experts in the field, even textbook material, when they lack
>> sufficient prior experience to be considered an expert in the
>> aspect at hand in the case. It is not the practice of forensic
>> pathology experts to conduct interogations or to take testimony.
>> But you do appear to be easily confused have such a strange oath
>> for witnesses in Pennsylvania.
> To continue the quotation I began: “Thus a physician in his own practice
>bases his diagnosis on information from numerous sources and of considerable
>variety, including statements by patients and relatives . . . .” The one who is easily
>confused seems to be you. Should you wish I will e-mail you not one but *three*
>reports of forensic pathologists which used such information in the same case. Just
>say the word. I will, at your request, e-mail the complete legal arguments on what
>can and what cannot be used by an expert.
> Otherwise, your legal education is irrelevant to alt.revisionism.
It is unclear that a pathologist can consult with his patient.
However, as to your offer, remind me in a few days. The mail
bomb from [email protected] has screwed up my mail
system. Remind me later. I will be interested in the offer.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:54 PDT 1996
Article: 36558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:20:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36558 soc.culture.jewish:49790 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19757 soc.culture.israel:33400
[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Ceasar’s inability to differentiate between terrorists
>>>>>masquerading as civilians or religious clerics and between
>>>>>civilians who get blown up by the “holy missions” of the
>>>>>terrorists:
>>>>
>>>> Those kids in the ambulance were wired with explosives?
>>
>>>That’s not so impossible considering the track record of hiding
>behind
>>>skirts and hospitals.–(H)
>>
>> Were they?
>>
>>>>>>>For some reason, you are remarkably resistant to understanding
>>>>>>>these differences. I wonder why.
>>>>
>>>>>>It is difficult to see why you continue to ignore that Israel is
>>>>>>the occupying nation in this case. If it would leave the
>>>>>>resistance movement’s activities would cease.
>>
>>>Since Syria occupies most of Lebanon and does not want to make peace
>I
>>>think not (H)
>>
>> Israel was the agressor against Lebanon last time around. It is
>>up to Israel to make the concessions first.
>>
>>>>>Errr, ummmm, about 90% of Syria is occupied by Syrian forces.
>>>>
>>>> I would have though 100%.
>>>>
>>
>>>Even the best of us can make typos. I’m sure you understood what
>Jake
>>>meant. (H)
>>
>>
>>>>>Some 40,000 troops. Been there for years. President Assad
>>>>>of Syria TELLS Beirut what to say. Which is why they both
>>>>>have identical voting records now.
>>>>
>>>> And the are only there because in 1982 Israel deliberated
>>>>destabilized the entire country trying install a Marianist as
>>>>dictator. The years of fighting in Beirut, an abortive US
>>>>attempt to make a peace, Syria moving in to keep the peace is all
>>>>the consequence of the actions of Israel.
>>>>
>>>> Don’t gripe about it. Israel caused it.
>>>>
>>
>>>WE can all see how you are deliberately obfuscating the issue or even
>>>dare I say lying. I don’t think any of the posters are too young to
>>>not remember Back Sept. and how the PLO destroyed Lebanon so now you
>>>think you can blame Israel for what Arafat did. (H)
>>
>> It could not have happened were it nor for the invasion.
>>
>> The amen corner can’t seem to find anything but excuses for
>>Israel.
>>
>And now our dear poster has grabbed on the phrase from that arch
>antisemite Buchanan to prove his points. It only paints you squarely
>into the camp you wish to be in —-the Jew hater corner. When you
>can’t prove a point it most easy to call a name like amen corner. I
>don’t alibi for anyone even Israel but the facts speak for themselves.
The out of context and changed quotes from him posted here and
collect by FAIR referred to Israel not Jews.
But in fact it appears that only the pro-Israel are permitted to
criticise Israel but they never do so in public. Yet they attack
those who publically criticize Israel. And often you will read
words like, “I disagree with Israel too but … [if you do
it…]”.
Yet when Buchanan used the amen corner he was asking a question
rather than making a statement to another participant on the show
and it was with regard to war against Iraq. At the time he asked
the question it was only Israel, AIPAC, and traditional Israel
supporters that were calling for war.
Consider the propagana windfall for Hussien when the war actually
came. He did not have to make up anything as to who called for
war. It gave all the credibility he could ask for when claiming
Israel and it supporters were the cause of the war against Iraq.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:55 PDT 1996
Article: 36559 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:53:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>Do you think you can change? I want to see one note from you
>accepting
>>>the State of Israel and praising something it did. Now do you think
>>>you can do that for us?
>>
>> Making peace, giving up occupied territory, are all to be
>>encouraged but it does not seem appropriate to praise Israel for
>>doing the right thing. That is more like something one does in
>>raising a child.
>>
>> It is often bemoaned that the US is the only ally Israel has in
>>the world. But then one is left with the problem of explaining
>>how so many other nations in the world have been so wrong for so
>>many decades.
>No, No, Niwer, baby, your note is about as sincere as Arafat’s
>announcement that he had actually changed his stripes and the covenent
>and about as worthless.
There was no intention to do anything but to state that a listing
of the good things would be inappropriate in discussing a nation.
On the other hand you appear to be asking for crocadile tears
like Brando gave to repent for describing Hollywood as he sees
it.
I speak my mind as I see it. To hell with what the rest of the
world wants to see or hear.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:56 PDT 1996
Article: 36560 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:43:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <10MAY199623295453@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Sun, 12 May 1996 01:04:55 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!Learn to read headers some day. What are you going to claim
>!gov.il means? Be creative so all the holohuggers can swear that
>!it is true even though it is false. Play with the address and
>!find its website.
>!
>!And of course until I get a response stating that action has been
>!taken against the person who did it, it remains the
>!responsibility and action of the government of Israel and
>!evidence of what the Israeli government will do. I will post any
>!responses I receive in the matter.
>Get them friggin JEWS Giwer! One, 6 million, it dont matter…
As I have said both are equal. You can only hang a man once.
The penalty is the same. That you can not deal with reality has
already been demonstrated by you.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:56 PDT 1996
Article: 36564 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:51:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Roger Froikin
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You miss the point entirely. The entire current news coverage is
>> the peace with the Palestinians. Yet the claim here is that
>> while peace has been officially proclaimed between Israel and the
>> Palestinians, the claim is that there have been ongoing terrorist
>> attacks by Palestinians.
>>
>> That is what I asking after, not history.
>And I answered with examples of Palestinian terrorist attacks not being
>reported as a matter of routine unless they are on the magnitude of a
>bus bombing. That does answer the question.
>If you want to know why that is the case, then ask the press. I’d like
>to know the answer as well.
You apparently insist upon confusing Palestinians with Lebanese.
The bus bombing was done by Hizbollah, not the PLO. Can’t you
keep them separated?
>> >I disagree with Jake on this 100 %. The emotion is there. It is there
>> >in me. OIt’s there in everyone I know. It’s normal to be there. The
>> >difference between Jews and Arabs in the Mid East is the Jews have
>> >leaders that tell them to sublimate these emotions. The Arabs have
>> >leaders that stir up the emotions and use them for violence.
>>
>> >What kind of violence might there have been had some American leaders
>> >taken advantage of the emotion after the Oklahoma bombing to stir people
>> >to violence ?
>>
>> Bill Clinton tried to do so. First against radio talk show
>> people and then against citizen militias. He perhaps not to
>> violence but certainly used the event against them and to some
>> extent succeeded. And he got away with it. Unless you hold it
>> is different than a matter of degree, we can get on with your
>> next question.
>I agree, Matt. Clinton and others tried. In a country with a
>reletively free press, with talk radio, there are people out there to
>call him on it and to balance such attempts more or less. Can you
>imagine how in Syria or Saudi Arabia or even Egypt anything existing to
>balance the manipulation of the masses by unscrupulous leaders ?
Or press vaguely attempted something. Only A&E that I am aware
of did a serious review of militias and found them little more
than an outgrowth of the survivalist movement of the 70s. The
rest I saw were attempting to sensationalize matters as much as
possible, searching for the sinister where there is nothing
sinister.
Yet the issue was a leader in this country attempting it. It
happened.
>> >> It is over as you know. And as anyone claiming knowledge of the
>> >> Middle East knows, exaggerated and flowery language is a
>> >> trademark of the speech pattern, such as the mother of all wars.
>> >> Even eternal jihads don’t last forever.
>>
>> >Wrong. People said the same about Hitler – that his rhetoric was
>> >emotional and full of hyperbole for effect. Too often leaders’ rhetoric
>> >creates responses that push the leadership into condoning what they
>> >might not have condoned otherwise. King Hussein speaks Arabic much
>> >better than Arafat and he seems to be able to do very well without the
>> >kind of language that threatens Jews.
>>
>> Arafat’s last call for action against Israel was the total
>> nonviolence of the Intifada.
>Read Arafat’s welcome speech given when he returned to Gaza. He called
>for Jihad. He called for a Palestinian State including the Galilee,
>Haifa, Jaffa, and all of Jerusalem. Since then he has spoken in Sweeden
>to Arab groups and journalists staing that his objectives have stayed
>the same, only his tactics have changed and predicting the Jews would
>all be gone from Palestine some day. Other groups have not modified
>their rhetoric even that much.
And what is the source of this information?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36570 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 02:29:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> [as it is unclear this thread has anything to so with the Holocaust,
> follow ups are directed to soc.history]
> Tom Moran began this thread by presenting the following chart:
>>>>>: > Year Jews in Europe Total Jews world wide
>>>>>: > 1650 700,000 1,750,000
>>>>>: > 1700 1,000,000 1,250,000
>>>>>: > 1750 1,250,000 2,250,000
>>>>>: > 1800 1,500,000 2,500,000
>>>>>: > 1825 2,730,000 3,281,000
>>>>>: > 1840 3,600,000 4,500,000
>>>>>: > 1850 4,127,000 4,764,500
>>>>>: > 1860 5,200,000 6,000,000
>>>>>: >”Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89″
> and Tom asserted:
>Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the European Jewish
>population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to 5,200,000 in just 210
>years. Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>total European population over the same period of time.
> Matt Giwer jumped in and asserted:
>..in times without reliable birth control and with there not being a
>particular health difference between city and farm if there were in fact a
>significant difference it would certainly be what needs explaining.
> I replied to Matt:
>Birthrate differences between city and farm is one of the
>classic issues of demography. Every demographer knows about it. It is
>even taught in UNDERGRADUATE demography classes. BUT, that wasn’t the
>question. You just brought up city and farm on your own for no reason.
> And Matt responded:
>Today, perhaps, but I believe it was Boswell, resident of London,
>who was asked the number of children he had and replied something
>like, “Six but I don’t count the ones under five.”
>I brought up the city v farm issue to cut you off at the pass.
> And I say: Matt, that is exactly my point. Until they reached the age
> of five they could not work in fields nor factories and therefore did
> not count (though Boswell was probably just being humorous in his
> response). I am so happy you cut me off at the pass.
> Now, before Matt interrupted, I responded to Tom Moran’s point with:
>There is no reason to believe a sub-population grows at the same rate
>as the whole population. There are four basic ways the sub-population
>might grow differently: different birth rate, different death rate,
>different immigration rate, different emigration rate. There are also
>several construct validity issues which might effect the numbers, but
>that is getting into way too much detail. Of the four basics, I can
>put together hypotheses arguing possibilities for all four vectors.
>For example, Jews might have been emigrating from Europe at a different
>rate than non-Jews due to immigration policies in countries on other
>continents.
And once you have taken a position upon one of the four then we
will test its validity against facts from the period in
question.
> Let me expand on this now to say it is also possible that Jewish birth
> rates differed from Non-Jews and that Jewish death rates differed from
> non-Jews. I am unfamilair enough with the history of the era to know
> which hypotheses make the most sense. Are there any soc.history
> readers who might explain why the rate of growth of Jewish population
> in Europe from 1650 to 1860 differed from the rate of growth of the
> overall population? (Note: it may not be clear from the above but the
> overall population in Europe increased approximately 170% [cite: World
> Almanac, 1994, p828] while Jewish population grew about 650% [see
> Moran’s post above]).
You have now seen the problem.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36572 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 02:29:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>> [Most of Moran’s psot deleted. I responded to it several months ago
>>> when he first posted this rubbish. Anyone interested can visit
>>> Dejanews and read the exchange.]
>>
>>>>>>> Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>>>>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>>>>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>>>>total European population over the same period of time.
>>
>>> Note that Giwer makes and assertion: Delta of Jewish population in
>>> Europe is expected to equal the delta of total population in Europe
>>> over the given period of 210 years.
>>
>> Uniformitarian assumptions have been one of the mainstays of
>>science to point out what anomalies are in need of explanation.
>>But you did not know that.
> It may be true in physics, I couldn’t say. It isn’t true here.
It is true in all of the sciences.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 36573 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:31:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>If Giwer considers Arafat’s intifada of stone throwing was nonviolent,
>or innocent, I want to invite him to be hit in the head with a rock by
>these so called children of Arafat’s campaign did indiscriminately to
>babies, old people and to anyone who came their way. Ask the parents
>for instance of the babies who were killed, lost an eye or injured in
>other ways whether they bbelieve it was non=violent. I daresay he will
>protest.
>I consider it just another manifestation of the Arab heros of hiding
>behind women and childen.
You folks must have different news sources than are availble to
me. I kept seeing and reading about the lethal use of both
rubber bullets and CS gas by Israel. The manufacturer even
stopped the sale of it to Israel in response to the way they were
using it and after several deaths.
There was even one report of the attempted development of a stone
throwing machine.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36579 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:44:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of harassment, this organization was kind enough to send
>>>>me 87 identical copies of the 56k message. Full message upon
>>>>request. You will notice that this harrassment policy appears to
>>>>be that of the Government of Israel also.
>[actual post clipped]
>>> You seem to have been spammed by someone who has routed Israeli junk
>>> mail to you by the bushel full. Unlikely Israel itself is involved.
>>> It is probably Marduk (whomever he is this week {snicker snicker}).
>>> While I can’t say I agree with spamming people with junk mail, I can
>>> say, “It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.”
>>
>> Learn to read headers some day. What are you going to claim
>>gov.il means? Be creative so all the holohuggers can swear that
>>it is true even though it is false. Play with the address and
>>find its website.
> Sorry, I wan’t completely clear. My guess is that someone went to an
> Israeli government web page, filled out a form requesting additional
> information from the government, and typed in your email address. Then
> they found a way to loop this activity so that you would get LOTS of
> email. From the Israeli government side it was a mailbot which filled
> the orders – rather than any sort of plot to get you. That is my
> guess due to the fact I can’t imagine that the Israeli government knows
> you exist, let alone cares about you.
HTML does not permit looping. The file does not contain
meaningful information even in another charset.
>> And of course until I get a response stating that action has been
>>taken against the person who did it, it remains the
>>responsibility and action of the government of Israel and
>>evidence of what the Israeli government will do. I will post any
>>responses I receive in the matter.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36580 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:16:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <317b9ec0.6352[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>### That is what it was designed to do be released slowly.
>## You claim it was “designed to be released slowly”. So far, we have
>## seen the patent for Zyklon, and we have seen what the leading
>## scientist of the firm that manufactured it, state exactly the
>## opposite than what you claim.
>##
>## In light of this, can you tell us what is your source for
>## claiming that it was “designed to be released slowly”?
># The persistance time required to kill insects, remember? It was
># used to fumigate buildings not just clothing in sealed rooms.
># How would you get persistance without slow release?
>What about the following, then?
> “Open the cans and pour out their contents. The contents are to
> be spread thinly so that the Zyklon can evaporate quickly and
> the necessary density of the gas can be achieved as soon as
> possible”.
>
> -Document NI-9912, Directives for the use of prussic acid (Zyklon),
> quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers” –
> J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 19.
>
>
>This seems to totally and completely contradict your (and Moran’s)
>conjectures about the HCN needing to evaporate slowly. Every
>technical source we have seen totally and completely contradicts
>your conjectures.
As you have asked my similar questions, how quickly is quickly
and compared to what? If your contention is that it all comes
out in ten minutes, how much slower could be a pile of it?
># You do remember all the posts about how long it takes to
># kill insects, do you not?
>Yes. But this means the lice, insects etc. need to be exposed
>for a long time. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the rate
>of release has to be slow. One can seal the place up, and
>then the insects etc. will be exposed to the HCN for a long
>time.
To do that adequately requires tenting. Your average
construction exchanges its air with the outside every 2-3 hours.
That was one of the facts of insulating homes during the 70s
energy crisis.
Granted with quick release one could go back inside and add more
when the concentration drops but until someone gets around to
posting the product brochure we simply have to go with that being
absent from the literature as having been done.
>If the rate of release was so slow as you and Moran conjecture
>it was, it would take a long time for the concentration to
>reach the effective one for killing the insects, right? So
>what good would that do?
It is an exponential release x% in the first y minutes, another
x% of the remaining in the next y minutes and so forth. So is
the air exchange with the outside exponential. So with any good
rules of thumb for the amount to use per room the level can be
maintained sort of constant for hours.
Were it a quick release the initial dosage would have to be way
above that needed so that after hours of air exchange it would
still be at a lethal level for insects. Thus one would tailor
the release rate (controllable by the size of the pellets) to
minimize the amount needed for a particular job.
>And, anyway, does the quote above totally and completely
>contradict your conjecture? It definitely seems so. The
>instruction is to lay the Zyklon so it will evaporate as
>fast as possible.
I have no idea what the document is or what else it is
describing. Would you care to post the complete document?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:01 PDT 1996
Article: 36581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer and his Threats
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:18:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4ms0th$bj8$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 8:18:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>Cliff Swiger ([email protected]) wrote:
> ^^^^^
>: Mr. Giwer should be commended for his perservering of the truth.
>Nice try, Myshkin. Using your massive accumulated riches to buy accounts
>from more than one provider?
>(And if anyone thinks that the five underlined letters are just a
>coincidence, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that just might be your
>Florida swampland dream home.)
Ain’t we paranoid.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 36582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-feed.iguide.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:28:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3190b679.6485[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 8:28:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Do you think Zyklon-B cans required a chisel and hammer to
>## open? Yes or no? Do some research, and come back with the answer.
>
># One would have thought that before you accpeted the story as true
># you would have researched that to your satisfaction and have the
># answer.
>
>Who says I haven’t?
>
> “The can opener was placed on the lid of the canister [of Zyklon-B]
>and forcefully struck with a hammer weighing from two to five
>pounds. Then the canister was open”.
>
> -Josef Erber, quoted in Fleming’s “Hitler and the Final Solution”,
> University of California Press, 1982, p. 187.
What chisel?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 36588 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:39 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Alexander Baron
># [email protected] “Daniel Keren” writes:
>## Hoess writes that:
>##
>## 1) The Soviet POW’s in Auschwitz behaved like a herd of animals.
>## Hoess writes that they practiced cannibalism, and often killed
>## each other for a piece of bread.
># This is the sort of thing a communist would like a Nazi to write.
>No way. Had they “dictated” his memoirs to him, they would never
>tell him to write anything like this. Why would they want the world
>to think that their POW’s behaved like a herd of animals, killed
>each other for a piece of bread, practiced cannibalism, etc?
You might know the answer as I can not find it any place on
Nizkor. When was the first world publication of these memoirs?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:03 PDT 1996
Article: 36589 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alt.revisionism is impossible
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <831766696sn[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <831766696s[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>I logged on tonight and downloaded 430 messages from this newsgroup alone?
>>This is preposterous. Alloting 2 seconds to read every message would take
>>fifteen minutes. Has anyone any suggestions how we can reduce this to
>>manageable proportions?
> It’s Giwer.
Me? When there are two people adding contentless messages in
everything I post? That only gives me credit for a third of any
of the excess unless they are “forced” to do so.
Look, the leadership of this quasi neo-Nazi movement you
> are loosely associated with is out there selling swill to every angry,
> racist, knuckle dragging low life you can find. As they learn of this
> denial movement and come onto usenet they behave like, well, angry,
> racist, knuckle dragging low lives. So, if one of them starts spamming
> alt.revisionism with lots of angry, racist garbage, don’t blame us.
> You are the guy who sells the stuff and recruits them in.
And of course, you are above all of that name calling stuff.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:04 PDT 1996
Article: 36590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,rec.sports.baseball.cinci-reds
Subject: Re: Goldhagen’s thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>>>>>> Do you happen to own a baseball team?
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting question, troll. I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
>>>>> fan. I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
>>>>> fielded in the 70s.
>>>>
>>>> Then you would not remember Ted Kluseuski would you.
>>
>>> Well enough to know you spelled his name wrong, asshole.
>>
>> It has been longer for me than for you youngster.
> Who cares.
>>>>> I boycotted baseball in ’93 because of Marge Schott. Everytime I think
>>>>> about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
>>>>> stupid.
>>>>
>>>>> What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
>>>>> things she says. And, as you haven’t put forward any arguments
>>>>> disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
>>>>> trolling once again.
>>>>
>>>> Have you missed the latest outburst? To the effect that everyone
>>>>knows he started off doing good things and then went crazy?
>>>>
>>>> What might the difference be between that and
>>>>
>>>>I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>>>>>> possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>>>>>> get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man.
>>>>
>>>> What if Marge Schott has said those words?
>>
>>> It would be evidence her IQ shot up 50 points, asshole.
>>
>> In her own style, that is what she said. You two sound the same.
> I assume rather than calling me a racist Nazi, you are saying that she
> isn’t one?
You keep changing the subject. I have only said you sound the
same.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:05 PDT 1996
Article: 36592 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 319
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
># That is what has been under discussion and that way I see.
># Write your own article.
>I’m writing my articles and I’m posting my material. But I cannot
>compensate for your ignorance.
>## To repeat – the problem is that “revisionists” either know nothing
>## about science, or that they lie. The problem is not with the
>## testimonies.
># And when you do join in you will discover that my knowledge of
># science has lead to an explanation of why there might have been
># reports of “steaming” people.
>Now that’s a joke. I thought of this matter with the white exhaust
>being confused for steam long before you appeared on this newsgroup.
If that were true then there would not have been claims of death
by CO poisoning but rather of suffocation from the oil mist.
Also it was clearly not understood what was being described
before I explained it.
But we are still faced with the additional problem of the
explosive flammability of the method. That appears to have been
dropped.
We have to solve the flammability problem else we do not have
this oil mist as a solution.
># You would be wise to take advantage of it.
>You would be wise not to overestimate your importance.
Utility is not importance.
>## I suggest to Giwer to close himself in a chamber densely
>## packed with people, and measure the temperature in it.
># When you write your own article you can interperate it as you
># please.
>I wrote an article. You’re trying to respond to it. I’m suggesting
>a simple experiment: lock yourself, with many other naked people,
>in a closed chamber. Be sure to pack as many people as you can
>into it. Stay like that for half-an-hour or so. Then, measure
>the temperature in that room. And then you can comment on
>Hoeblinger’s testimony.
I was referring to a real article, 2-3000 words or so.
>## 2) There is no “hunt” for the buildings (there were more than
>## one) in which the mass gassings took place. Their locations
>## are well-known.
># Then all of this talk about the new information from Moscow has
># has added nothing new?
>I’m not sure what you’re talking about. The location of
>the gas chambers is well-known since WW2. There’s no new
>information about their location. There may be new documents
>discovered about the planning and construction. I’ve seen
>some of these documents; they are indeed very interesting.
>## Why does the inventory list only the *smaller* among the
>## two cellars as having a gas tight door? It obviously makes
>## no sense. If one of the cellars was going to be used as an
>## air-raid shelter, why not use the larger one?
># This is being discussed in another thread. The air tight door
># would mitigate the damage to the people inside from the
># overpressure, mainly eardrum rupture.
>First, I don’t find this convincing. Second, you’re intentionally
>evading my question. If what you write is true, why wasn’t
>the *larger* cellar equipped with a gas-tight door also?
Someone here is telling all four were gas chambers. What are you
talking about?
>BTW, you keep claiming I’m mistranslating “air-tight door”
>as “gas-tight door”. But the German original does say “gas-tight”
>(it uses the word “gas”, and not “luft”, which is German
>for “air”, as I recall).
I don’t know what the physical difference in construction might
be. And whatisname is telling me the chute was blocked by wooden
partitions in any event. It is not clear what merit the
difference might have.
>## 3) Is there any testimony or any blueprint which mention that
>## there was any intent to use these cellars as air-raid shelters?
># No more than there is one citing it as a gas chamber.
>But that’s an outright lie, and you know that, right?
Looking at the features on the conceptual drawing, hardly a
blueprint, it is there if you want to see it.
>## The construction documents do mention a “gassing cellar” and a
>## “gas chamber” in the Kremas.
># So far as has been posted that comes from one letter as opposed
># to the rest that do not.
>More than one letter.
Seems to be all that has been posted here.
># One needs to ask why that one person would call it that. Perhaps
># a morbid sense of humor.
>Enough is enough, Giwer.
What is your point?
>## Dejaco, the architect of the Kremas, was tried in Austria in
>## 1972. Did he ever mention the air-raid shelter theory?
># I have not read his testimony. Did he testify to gas chambers?
>Yes.
Or was he accused of it? And I would then ask why the Russians
showed up at Topf and rounded up those who built the Kremas and
tried them immediately after the war?
># Nizkor carries a picture of the above ground undressing room of
># Krema IV as the gas chamber. Several of the slits for
># introducing gas are in the picturs. So says the caption in any
># event.
>This was taken during the war, before it was destroyed.
There is no date in the caption.
># But it is unclear what you are referring to by razed.
>Dynamited. The floor is still there, and the ruins of the walls
>and the ceiling.
>## 1) Why wasn’t the room in Krema I – which we *know* was an
>## air-raid shelter – destroyed?
># Isn’t that the room that the curator said was rebuilt?
>What do you mean “rebuilt”? The SS *didn’t* destroy it when
>they left the camp. It *was* used as an air-raid shelter by
>the SS. According to your theory, they would have destroyed it.
The word used to describe it was rebuilt. Restored is a
different word. A curator would not be so imprecise.
>Your theory is ridiculous. Here we have this structure, which we
>*know* was used as an air-raid shelter, and it wasn’t destroyed.
>## 3) Isn’t it obvious that the SS had hardly nothing to gain from
>## destroying these buildings, if they were air-raid shelters?
>## The German army was finished. The war was going to end soon,
>## everyone knew that. There’s no indication AFAIK that large
>## Soviet troops were planning to stay in Auschwitz, and would
>## indeed use these cellars as air-raid shelters. And anyway, how
>## much of the German Air-Force was around in January 1945?
># When retreating one hopes to regroup.
>In January 1945 no sane German was hoping to regroup. They knew
>they lost the war.
That is a fine introduction without evidence. It is certainly
ceded that those who knew the overall picture should have. That
is from everyone nor would it be an excuse not to implement
standard procedures during a retreat. Beyond that, there were
specific orders to do such things as burn Paris.
># It would also have been useful as protection against
># artillery attack.
>So would the air-raid shelter in Krema I, and they didn’t
>destroy it.
As above, rebuild is not reconstruct.
>[About the number of victims in Treblinka]
># 2 million was posted here as gospel. I have used it many times.
># You are the first to say that it is wrong.
>Not true This figure appeared in one testimony of an Ukrainian
>wachman. Historians give a figure of 700,000.
>## Human remains were found, up to a depth of 7.5 meters, in Treblinka.
># But not in sufficient quantity and, unless a typo, much too deep
># without a rather massive excavation.
>No typo.
Then much too deep. The shoring job to prevent collapse of the
walls would be a huge and unnecessary task when shallower and
larger would do as well.
># With either number used we are talking pounds of bone ash per
># square foot.
>How much is your 8 pounds, divided over a depth of 7.5 meters?
>How much does a column of earth, 7.5 meters by a sq. foot, weigh?
>Much more than 8 pounds – much much more, would you agree?
>Would you care to tell us what the relative *volume* of the
>ashes is, assuming your “8 lbs per sq. foot” (which you arrived
>at by assuming a number of victims about 3 times than the
>correct one, and possibly failing to account for the infants
>and children who were among them, who weigh much less)?
There has been no description published claiming an equal
distrubtion over any depth. The easiest way is to dig a hole,
toss it in, and cover it up. Even with the effort of mixing,
nothing is hidden from chemical analysis.
># Rather than simply bringing in the entire tank? since they
># needed the chassis that is.
>Are you asking why they took the engine out, instead of
>having left the tank there? I don’t know. Possibly, because
>they wanted to fool the victims into believing the gas
>chambers were showers, and people may have wondered what
>a tank was doing next to these “showers”. Also, wouldn’t
>taking the engine out make access to it much easier (in
>case it broke down and had to be fixed)?
As they needed the chassis and the engine mounts and the fuel
tank and the associated batteries wiring and gauges, why would
they simply not use the entire tank? I have the distinct
impression people think it could just be laid on the ground or in
a wooden jig of some kind.
Access for maintenance only brings up the question of a supply of
Russian spare parts. Tech manuals in German wouldn’t hurt
either.
>## Are there such stories about Treblinka? About Auschwitz and its
>## much shallower “burning pits”, yes. But about Treblinka?
># It has been posted here many times and there have been many
># threads on it.
>I am not aware of any testimony about the fat being
>extracted from the “burning ditches” in Treblinka. In Auschwitz,
>yes; in Treblinka, no. Can you provide a source? Not “it
>has been posted here”.
Just read this thread. The discussion is in it. Alstine is
claiming he could lay such a precise angle over 150 with string
and level.
>## And all the trials of former SS-men held by the German Legal
>## System? Was this also “revenge”?
># What were they charged with specifically?
>With killing very large numbers of people in gas chambers.
Under German law the crime would be murder. The means would be
in the evidence.
># The question is not so much how many died without gassing but
># rather how so many survived with it.
>”So many”? Incredible. How many do you think survived the
>death camps? I’m not talking about those who were never
>captured by the German. I’m talking about those that were
>sent to the death camps. How many do you think survived
>Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno?
I am comparing the living conditions through the years which are
not considered to be any better than at the time of liberation.
That being the case the number of survivors is absolutely
phenomenal, even in the work camps.
>## There has been a *huge* body of work on the Holocaust by
>## German historians.
># These stories in particular
>You mean about the gas chambers? Yes.
Yes.
># and are there no German Jewish organizations?
>It may come as a shock to you, but there aren’t that many Jews
>in Germany anymore. But we’re talking about German historians,
>not Jewish organizations.
Perhaps their work should be more widely translated.
>### There is very little impartial secular history on these stories.
>## This is a lie.
># These particular stories.
They should be more widely translated.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:05 PDT 1996
Article: 36594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 05:22:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3192014f.4773[email protected]> <3193[email protected]> <4mvpc[email protected]> <3194979c.39739[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 12:27:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>:
>: Okay. More problems. The Yad Vashim in Israel is said to have
>: 3,000,000 names of victims, which leaves 3,000,000 unaccounted for.
>: Now if the doctor claims he lost 120 relatives, Mr.Eeiken claims he
>: lost 160 and Mr.Mittleman claims some people lost “hundreds each” we
>: have to wonder if they are saying they have a full accounting of the
>: number of relatives lost or should we assume they have only accounted
>: for 1/2 of the family victims.
>:
>: Recap.
>:
>: Jewish estimates for their population today range from 13
>: million to 16 million to 20 million.
>: Moran trying to keep the end results from being any more
>: absurd than it is accomodated a lower number of 10 million.
>: Then Moran in very accomodating gesture took only 100,000 of
>: this number to use in his ciphering, which comes out to 1% (one
>: percent).
>: Taking the doctor’s figure of 120 relatives, and assuming his
>: family to be an average, Moran multiplies 120 X 100,000 which comes
>: out to 12,000,000.
>: Should we assume the doctor has a full accounting, or should
>: we assume he has only half, according to the Yad Vashim 3,000,000? In
>: this case we see the figures would be more like 24,000,000.
>:
>: Going by a minimum of “hundreds” claimed by Mr.Mittleman, and
>: using the 20,000,000 figure of Jews existing today we have 200 X the
>: 20,000,000 which = 4,000,000,000 (4 billion), which would be only
>: half, considering Yad Vashim claims they have only 1/2 the survivor
>: list, which would be 2 X 4,000,000,000 which comes out to
>: 8,000,000,000. About one and a half times the world population today.
>Of course, Mr. Moran has already been informed by numerous people that his
>logic has a huge hole in it: he assumes that each person has a
>*different* 120 relaitves, instead of there being numerous Jews who are
>realted to *more than one person.* If Mr. Moran cannot understand this
>concept, perhaps it is time for him to reenroll in basic math courses.
Save that by the Wannsee population esitmate (what number would
you prefer?) and by the fraction of Russia controlled at it peak,
we have 6/8.5 as the effectiveness rate, which is a 30% survival
rate meaning that on average only about 4 relatives could have
been shared. If we used 5/8.5 we have closer to two shared
relatives on average.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:06 PDT 1996
Article: 36595 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER MANIFESTO GROWS…
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:30:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <10MAY199623295453@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <3194ac39.6310[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 1:32:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49264 alt.revisionism:36595
[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Sun, 12 May 1996 07:43:53 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!>Get them friggin JEWS Giwer! One, 6 million, it dont matter…
>!As I have said both are equal. You can only hang a man once.
>!The penalty is the same. That you can not deal with reality has
>!already been demonstrated by you.
>Are 1 and 6,000,000 the same in a mathematical sense as well?
>Or is it just when you count Jews?
>Giwer, you are a a bigot, an anti-Semite, a homophobe, a sexist,
>a Right-wing gungoon (a hair away from Militia La La Land), a
>pathological liar, a message forger, a rabid libeling slimebag
>– trying, and failing miserably here — to prove those poor
>Right-wing Nazis werent so bad, i.e., Jews just died of the
>natural attrition endemic to concertration camps.
>What you are and what you do here is obvious to everyone.
>Including you.
Have the tooth removed. You will feel better.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:07 PDT 1996
Article: 36596 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:59:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 12:00:12 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36596 soc.culture.jewish:49874 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19783 soc.culture.israel:33435
[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:
>On Fri, 10 May 1996 04:37:36 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
> You are very out of touch. Just last week whoever is in
>charge
>>of Israel these days CONGRATULATED Arafat for the PLO getting all
>>of those provisions removed.
>>
>> Or are you just trying to continue your misrepresentation of the
>>PLO?
>>
>Maybe the Giwer is out of touch, as the PLO “DIDN’T” Amend their
>charter as of this time, they only agreed to Amend the Articles that
>deal with the destruction of Israel, but they have yet to appoint a
>committee, nor have they redrafted their covenant.
>If there is some one out of “Touch” it is the Giwer.
Their newly elected government voted to remove them. It is all
over but the shouting. What is your problem with that? There
is now officially peace between Israel and the PLO. You folks
appear to be doing your best to undermine it.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 36602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:31:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 1:33:21 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Sun, 12 May 1996 05:37:09 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!Or something like the subject. Constant pointing to centuries of
>!problems and pogroms and whatever is popular at the moment.
>!Turn on the Wayback machine. The fuedal system was no secret.
>!To become part of it one became a Christian, like it or not. Yet
>!Jews migrated into this system knowning they were not prepared to
>!become part of it and could not become part of it without
>!converting.
>!Or course maybe the problems started after it was not easy to
>!leave. But consider that there are still Jews in Europe at all.
>!Where are the Albegenisians? Where are the Knights Templar?
>!(Please do not link them to the Rosicrusians.) Yet these are
>!only minor variations within Chrisitanity. And they were wiped
>!out by their fellow Christians.
>!Certainly the Jewish immigrants to Europe knew the Christian
>!attitude towards other religions. Certainly they had heard the
>!proud stories of Christians saints who had wiped out other
>!religions in one way or another.
>!If you don’t mind folks, I would say that anyone griping about
>!the way Jews were treated in Europe needs get their own Wayback
>!machine and explain to their ancestors to go back where they came
>!from to save their descendants much grief.
>!This is not to say that any of those ancestors could know the
>!future but the could certainly know the past of Christian Europe
>!at the time they voluntarily migrated there.
>The Unagiwer Manifesto is growing…
>Let me see if I got the gist of that correctly.
>The fault of the Holocaust (and all discrimination against Jews in
>Europe) is because of the Jews who chose to immigrate there over the
>centries? That Jews, unlike other ethinc groups, should stay put?
>Got any plans on what to DO about the Jews Giwer?
If I did, they would not include your family.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 36605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:44:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 1:48:27 AM CDT 1996
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Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>Some Europeans have alsways hated the Jews, same as some Americans,
>(after we killed off most of the Native Americans)…otherwise known
>as Indians, hate Jews, Black people, gay people, little people, cops,
>football players, and in my case hockey players…can’t stand them
>guys.
>He’s not a loose cannon, folks, he’s a loose nutty fruitcake.
>Chuck
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Or something like the subject. Constant pointing to centuries of
>> problems and pogroms and whatever is popular at the moment.
You are a perfect example so I hope you do not mind my using you.
It was hardly 100 words. One one hand I simply said the original
Jewish immigrants knew the risk they were taking. On the other
hand I accuse Christians of killing off members of other
religions.
You represent well those who have responded. You very ably
represent the amen corner. Of course for some reason you will
miss the point entirely.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 36608 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:21:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 1:22:02 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> What you have presented is that you lost track of relatives in
>> the old country at best. 5-6 years of a great dispersion without
>> contact and people lost contact. Is this a surprise to you?
>>>>>
> Yes. We lost contact with them becasue they were murdered. They are
>dead. They died becasue the nazis murdered them. Not only have I not “lost
>contact” with them but have reestablished it with the few survivors.
You are claiming 100% success in this matter? How did you know
where to start looking?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tax status
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 06:23:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 1:23:27 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Tax status] [Fri 10 May 96 17:33][Sun 12 May 96 07:40][0]*>
> >> Your statement is misleading. What party is unqualified? The
> >> recipient or the organization giving out the receipts?
> mnc> In particular, I read on the Nizkor site that a synagogue
> mnc> was giving out tax receipts for contributions to Nizkor.
> mnc> That implies to me that Nizkor has some sort of
> mnc> subordinate relationship to the synagogue. When I pointed that
> mnc> out, folks here insisted that it is an independent organization.
>Inconsequential.
>A local synagogue was giving out tax receipts for contributions to
>the Canadian Cancer Society.
>All the tax receipt means is that the contributor’s money is
>designated as going to a “worthy” not-for-profit organization.
>The destination of the funds must fall under that branch of the tax
>laws, so Nizkor already qualifies.
It has also been stated that Nizkor has applied for but has not
yet received tax exempt status.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36610 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:24:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 7:26:09 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer
># The years of fighting in Beirut, an abortive US
># attempt to make a peace, Syria moving in to keep the peace is all
># the consequence of the actions of Israel.
>What a load of crap. While, certainly, Israel could be criticized
>for some of its actions in Lebanon, the civil war in that
>country started long before Israel’s military intervention; as
>I recall, about 30,000 Lebanese died in that war.
>As for “Syria moving in to keep the peace”, that’s possibly one
>of the most insane Giwerisms so far. I’m sending a copy to Prof.
>Brendan McKay, who I consider to be an expert on this (and
>other mideast) matters. Maybe he’d like to comment.
You mean to say there was resistance to Syria coming in?
Are you suggesting that Sec State Schultz went to the wrong
country when he was trying to get a cease in the recent recent
fighting?
Or is it simply an article of faith that Syria controls Lebanon?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 06:29:12 PDT 1996
Article: 36615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-feed.iguide.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: images missing from Nizkor again
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:29:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 8:29:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Anyone wanting to look quickly at the Nizkor ftp site can see the
pictures are missing again.
May I predict a new caption for the gas chamber at Krema IV when
it is available again?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:29:43 PDT 1996
Article: 36635 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Black Folk
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:46 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >tom moran
>>
>> >[About slavery]
>>
>> ># Certainly this past is far more documented than the Holocaust story,
>>
>> >I am not, of course, denying slavery. But to claim that it is
>> >”far more documented” than the Holocaust, may well be the most idiotic
>> >statement of our crazed “revisionists” ever. Only Moran could
>> >come up with something like this.
>>
>> >Ok, maybe the claim by some other “revisionist”, that people can
>> >protect themselves from cyanide poisoning by holding their breath,
>> >was equally idiotic. Maybe.
>>
>> To say this certainly indicates your standards are extremely
>> suspect. Thousands of manifests all over the New World ports
>> listing slaves as cargo without any euphamism of “domestic
>> servant” or “guest laborer.” Thousands of slave transactions on
>> record without the slightest suggestion of code word to suggest
>> they were not slaves. But of course you are not denying slavery.
>A few points:
>1. I seriously doubt that you actually feel some sort of moral outrage
>that the slaves were treated in such a manner.
There is no one left to be outraged against. I am not in the
habit of expressing moral outrage towards dead people.
>2. Mr. Keren never denied that slaves were sold as a commodity. No one
>intelligent denies this, just as no one intelligent denies the Holocaust.
>Why do you make the false claim that he is saying this? To quote Mr.
>McVay, whose questions you never are able to answer, “Why do you keep
>lying, Mr. Giwer?”
The issue at hand is the quality of the documentation of gassing
not the camps. I addressed the quality of documentation.
Slavery didn’t happen only in “those buildings over there” with
the constant use of code words. Slavey was completely out in the
open.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:29:43 PDT 1996
Article: 36636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer contradicts himself
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 04:42:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 12 11:44:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >tom moran
>>
>> >[About African slaves]
>>
>> ># Thrown over board enmass from ships transporting them to the
>> ># Americas.
>>
>> >This is so typical, coming from a “revisionist”.
>>
>> >What would a “revisionist” like Moran write in response if
>> >such claims were posted about Nazis?
>>
>> There are obiviously several differences.
>>
>> >He would:
>>
>> >1) Demand physical evidence to support the claim that people were
>> > thrown from the ships.
>>
>> The custom of burial at sea is hardly in question here.
>>
>> >2) Demand to see a document stating that the captured slaves
>> > were to be thrown from the ships.
>>
>> Only the dead ones. You missed the custom entirely?
>>
>> >3) Ask “if they intended to throw them into the water, why did they
>> > bring them along in the first place”?
>>
>> Again, only the dead ones were cremated … sorry, wrong subject.
>>
>> >4) Demand to know each and every detail about this “alleged crime”.
>> > Like, exactly how many people were thrown over board, etc.
>>
>> Burial of the dead at sea was not a crime.
>Mr. Giwer, in an earlier post in this thread, you bemoaned (so
>authentically, I’m sure) the treatment of slaves as property. However, in
>this post, you explain away the possibility of live slaves being thrown
>overboard and drowned by saying that slaves were thrown overboard when
>they were dead. Why? Because of the custom of “burial at sea,” of
>course.
This is the first time I have heard the claim that live slaves
were thrown overboard. Been listening to Screwie Louie? Slaves
were the entire purpose and profit for the trip. That would be
the same as throwing money overboard.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:06 PDT 1996
Article: 36797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ValueJet Crash Caused by Marduk
Date: 14 May 1996 02:22:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on7-20.netcom.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 9:22:48 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.6
I have incontrovertable proof that the ValueJet Crash was part of a larger jew
plot masterminded by Marduk.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:07 PDT 1996
Article: 36808 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:20:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:22:45 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36808 soc.culture.jewish:50213 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19883 soc.culture.israel:33562
[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> It is over as you know. And as anyone claiming knowledge of the
>>Middle East knows, exaggerated and flowery language is a
>>trademark of the speech pattern, such as the mother of all wars.
>>Even eternal jihads don’t last forever.
>If you’re so knowledgable about the Middle East, perhaps you can
>tell us how many Arab govts in the past half century or so have
>been voted in (or out), how many rulers have been assasinated,
>how many Arabs and Muslims have been killed by other Arabs and
>Muslims (usually their neighbors), how many have been killed in
>civil war, within their own country, and how many Arab death
>threats have turned from words into action.
>Then you may comment on harmless “flowery language”.
You are so clearly filled with hatred against all Muslims that
you have to call them all Palestinians to hide it from yourself.
It is inconceivable to you that they could change because you can
not change.
What is peace worth to you? Under what terms would you accept
it?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:08 PDT 1996
Article: 36812 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:20:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:22:04 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>On Ceasar’s inability to differentiate between terrorists
>>>masquerading as civilians or religious clerics and between
>>>civilians who get blown up by the “holy missions” of the
>>>terrorists:
>>
>> Those kids in the ambulance were wired with explosives?
>These are often used for the transport of men and materiel.
>Among terrorists, this often is young men and bombs.
So lets see. One the off chance that a clearly marked ambulance
in Lebanon might have had a child wired with explosives and had
made a sharp turn south and got across the border and penetrated
into downtown Jerusalem, they needed to be killed. You are
reaching very far to excuse an attack that can not be excused.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:09 PDT 1996
Article: 36813 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:20:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:22:33 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Giwer’s preaching restraint and non-violence? Didn’t he once
>suggest that Israeli cities should have been nuked, in “retaliation”
>for the erroneous attack on the USS Liberty?
Peace would have been not attacking the Liberty in the first
place.
Israel is being attacked for its military occupation of Souther
Lebanon.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36814 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:19:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:21:31 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>> “How many times must the cannonball fly — Before it’s forever banned?”
>>
>> When we ban Israeli cannons.
>Let the car-bombs, the SCUDs, the Katyushas, the suicide-bombers, the
>Kalashnikovs, the axes, the swords roam free. Ban the Israeli defenses.
>Right, Giwer.
Ban Israeli offenses.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36815 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:19:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:21:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>From “Turmoil and Triumph”, by former US Secretary of State George
>>>Shultz (1993), pp. 671-675.
>>>*****************************************************************
>>
>>>We had word from the Jordanians that Abu Abbas, a member of the PLO
>>>executive council and part of a pro-Arafat faction, was the leader of
>>>the terrorists aboard the ship […]
>>
>>>Abu Abbas had masterminded the hijacking, and the PLO in Tunis sought
>>>credit for negotiating an end to it. The media were now part of the
>>>action, and their reports suggested the Israelis had a point. Ted
>>>Koppel interviewed Yasser Arafat, who, basking in the media limelight,
>>>assured Koppel that if Italy, where government officials were friendly
>>>with the PLO, requested extradition, Arafat would cooperate.
>> And just yesterday I saw videos of him walking on the beaching
>>and praising peace, Abbas that is.
>>
>> Of course, people like that can never change can they. He has a
>>deal with Peres to fake it until after the election also.
>Hey, if you want to entrust YOUR children to a serial killer,
>or YOUR wife to a serial rapist, or YOUR money to a convicted
>swindler,
Now those are real peace-seeking words.
I’m not stopping you. But don’t expect Israelis to
>take the word of a mass murderer and proud terrorist (and wanted
>criminal) that he won’t hurt them. “Honest.” (Oh, Abbass
>voted AGAINST Arafat on the changes to the PNC. He still
>supports the destruction of the State of Israel. Officially.)
Under what terms short of the extermination of every non-Israeli
for 500 miles in every direction would you accept peace?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36817 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 05:11:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 14 12:13:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Alexander Baron
>>In article
>>
>>> 1) The Soviet POW’s in Auschwitz behaved like a herd of animals.
>>> Hoess writes that they practiced cannibalism, and often killed
>>> each other for a piece of bread.
>>
>>This is the sort of thing a communist would like a Nazi to write. The same
>>way certain Jews like to claim that I – and other Revisionists – deny that
>>concentration camps existed, or the way that certain “anti-racists” claim
>>that all white nationalists are vicious foaming at the mouth anti-black bigots.
>>One can find examples of this in the agents provocateurs Organised Jewry and
>>their fellow travellers employ.
> In other words, you believe that Ho”ss was forced to testify
>about cannibalism among Soviet POWs so that the Soviet populace would get
>angry at Nazis? But wouldn’t it make more sense for the Soviets to force
>him to make flowery speeches about “the heroism of Soviet POWs when faced
>with all manner of degradation,” etc.?
For what the rumor is worth, Stalin executed at least the
officers who had surrendered. Why would he want the POWs
praised?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:12 PDT 1996
Article: 36818 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israle “fighting to win” (was: The Turner Diaries)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 05:12:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mfhb3$[email protected]> <83148538[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19895 alt.politics.white-power:28621 alt.revisionism:36818
Alec Grynspan
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Are you hereby declaring victory?
>>
>> Please present the scenario where Israel has strategic value to
>> the US or Canado or England or any other country relevent to this
>> discussion. And keep in mind that an attack upon oil fields
>> revealed that in the real world Israel had zero value.
>I already did. Don’t be the fool that Dahlman is.
Victory has been declared. Hail victory.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:13 PDT 1996
Article: 36822 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:19:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:21:43 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>[…]
>>Yet when Buchanan used the amen corner he was asking a question
>>rather than making a statement to another participant on the show
>>and it was with regard to war against Iraq. At the time he asked
>>the question it was only Israel, AIPAC, and traditional Israel
>>supporters that were calling for war.
>Pure, unadulterated, antisemitic lies.
You believe calling a name makes your false assertions true. It
does not.
>Not only did Israel not “call for war” to safeguard cheap gasoline
>for the USA,
You memory of recent events is highly colored by what you want it
to be. It did call for war but not for the reason you give.
Israel and its supporters represented themselves as experts on
dealing with their generic arab and said that was the only way to
deal with them. In fact Israel even represented they could
deal with Iraq single handed.
when Saddam attacked Israel with several dozen SCUD missiles,
>hitting Israeli cities, George Bush and his Secretary of State, the
>antisemite James “Fuck the Jews” Baker III (*) actually threatened
>Israeli PM Shamir that if Israeli jets retaliate for the Iraqi SCUD attacks,
>that the USAF would shoot down the IAF planes. Israel wasn’t even ALLOWED
>to join the war; Bush was terrified that his “Arab allies” would turn 180
>degrees in mid-war and join the fighting against Israel – which was Saddam’s
>intention.
That is correct and that is why they would have rightly been shot
down as they would have endangered the alliance which would have
cost the lives of troops in the alliance. And the would have
been shot down and Israel behaved properly during that was under
threat of the consequences.
>>Consider the propagana windfall for Hussien when the war actually
>>came. He did not have to make up anything as to who called for
>>war. It gave all the credibility he could ask for when claiming
>>Israel and it supporters were the cause of the war against Iraq.
>May you, Buchanan, Baker and even Bush, antisemites that you are,
>all burn in hell together.
Name calling to provoke a response and then claim the name
calling was justifed by the response.
Israel is not a Jewish nation. Attitudes towards Israel have
nothing to do with anti-semitism. You can not change history by
shouting anti-semitic. You can not change the politics of the
war by shouting anti-semitic.
There are many nations in the world and Israel does not rank very
high in importance among them. And all the name calling you can
muster will not increase the status of Israel one iota.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:13 PDT 1996
Article: 36823 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:21:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4ls912$d5[email protected]> <4mr0ao$s3[email protected]> <4mtgph$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>>Alec Grynspan
>>>>>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the Simon Weisenthal Institute doesn’t have records of every
>>>>>> person who ever existed, a claim of this sort–that an investigator
>>>>>> involved in the trials had negated many of the claims–would have
>>>>>> surfaced long ago if there were something to it. That the guy has a
>>>>>> transparently bogus name like “Al Gentile” makes one suspicious too.
>>>>>The name is real. It’s of Sicilian origin.
>>>>>Al Gentile is real. He’s a foul-mouthed old man who makes Matt’s worst
>>>>>zig-zags look like a straight line.
>>>>>I have no idea what Matt quoted, but Al is real and they did overlap in
>>>>>time on the Soapbox conference on Smartnet.
>>>>>As I have no idea as to what Matt quoted, I can’t verify it myself or
>>>>>pull the archives.
>>>> You do not want to but they were all public messages from about a
>>>>two week exchange when I asked him to recount his story start to
>>>>finish. You should remember that exchange. As a reminder, it
>>>>contained his contention that the US never found one gas chamber
>>>>in Germany and pointed out that the office of the commandant of
>>>>one camp was indentified as a gas chamber.
>>>We are discussing your claims that he is a Righteous Gentile. His
>>>claims will be considered in light of his views.
>> The original diversion to avoid discussing what he witnessed was
>>to demand his credentials. Then it extended to this diversion.
>We want to verify that he was capable of seeing what he saw. He had to
>have been there. This is how we verify testimony and it is the first
>step, Mr. Giwer.
>> Let us presume for the moment that he is not considered a
>>righteous gentile.
>So you were lying.
>> Shall be get back to discussing what he wrote?
>After verification.
>> Or shall every other eyewitness story posted here be diverted to
>>a challenge to who he really was, his motivations and the like?
>Most of the witnesses can be shown to be where they said they were and
>have been validated through both legal and historical process. We are
>trying to do this for Mr. “Al Gentile.”
Lets see the proof that the person who was tried as Hoess was in
fact Hoess. Then the proof that he was in fact running the
place. Lets have that proof before we consider anything he may
or may not have said.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 36824 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:21:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:23:19 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49585 alt.revisionism:36824
Alec Grynspan
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You will note it comes from a goverment gopher site so whoever
>> did it at least has root access. That would certainly indicate
>> at least employee status. When I worked for the US goverment
>> unless the government took action against me for what I did, I
>> was the government.
>ROTFL!
>Matt, you got hit by a bot response to somebody emailing requests for
>info in your name. Those message samples are what Hebrew looks like if
>you don’t have the right codepage!
Unfortunately, no. Every CHARSET is a set of 8 bit codes. They
do not come in code groups. You will note the repetitions of the
same characters. That would result in the same repetitions of
the same character in another CHARSET.
>No root access required. None. Nada.
Save that the access to it is via a webpage. A very skilled
programmer could “bot” a web page but HTML can not be looped. If
you can find a way, there are a lot of people who want to hear
about it.
>As for the Israeli government taking action against the perp – why?
>As far as their records go, you asked for the stuff yourself.
That is the assumption that does not hold given the character
sequences as received.
>For all you know, it was Tom Moron doing it to make it look like
>persecution.
>Oh, yes. Setting up a script to do repeats is a snap! It’s built into
>Windows (as an example).
You will have to direct me to that script interpretor some time.
I seem to have missed it.
And when you actuall get to the website you will find that
answers to queries not on the website this gopher serves are
handled by email.
>> I will also note that I have contacted both root and in the front
>> door of the web site this serves. I asked if this is official
>> policy of the government and to date, silence.
>Appropriate. Somebody there probably said “Is this guy for real? Doesn’t
>he know *ANYTHING* about the Internet?”
Rather you should look at the site before you go further. Or
certainly show me where to find that script interpretor in
Windows.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:15 PDT 1996
Article: 36825 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:21:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <12MAY199606565934@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> HTML does not permit looping. The file does not contain
>> meaningful information even in another charset.
>Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK…
>If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to their HTTP
>port and send the SUBMIT packet.
You missed going to the site first. Requests are by email in
plain english. There is no form.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 36826 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:21:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4mp9v[email protected]> <4mt5ro[email protected]> <[email protected]> <10MAY199623295453@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 13 11:23:26 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:49587 alt.revisionism:36826
Alec Grynspan
>> Learn to read headers some day. What are you going to claim
>> gov.il means? Be creative so all the holohuggers can swear that
>> it is true even though it is false. Play with the address and
>> find its website.
>An easy trick. Lester CC’d me on his message to you. If Israel wanted
>you quiet, you’d be quiet. I sent you another, but your mailbox was
>full. I repeated the info.
>>
>> And of course until I get a response stating that action has been
>> taken against the person who did it, it remains the
>> responsibility and action of the government of Israel and
>> evidence of what the Israeli government will do. I will post any
>> responses I receive in the matter.
>Bullshit, Matt! They’ll just ignore you.
>All somebody has to do is spoof a gopher or mailing-list site into
>thinking that you requested something and – BINGO – you get nuked.
Go to the site and look first.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 36834 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:21:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <317e33e1.3331[email protected]> <4lmuq9$r[email protected]> <4lof6h$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Coke was used to fuel the Kremas.
>>
>> One of the industial sources is from the flue gases of coke fires.
>>
>> Which of the above do you have a problem with?
>Actually, this is interesting as while I was perusing a chemical
>dictionary in the bookstore yesterday I looked up hydrocyanic acid. In it
>was mentioned several of the methods by which hydrocyanic acid is made.
>One of the methods was from the gases subliminated during the coking
>process. Coke, as we all know, is made from heating coal to expunge gases
>from it so that when burning coke in industrial processes it burns cleaner
>with fewer combustion by-products.
>One then wonders that if the HCN has _already_ been removed during the
>coking process, how it would be present in larger quantities than present
>in the homicidal gas chambers when the coke is burned? In addition, it was
>mentioned that the _ignition_ temperature of HCN was around 1,000 F (538
>C). This too is interesting in that it has been said that the cremation
>temperatures of the furnaces used at Auschwitz was around 800 C, far
>higher than the ignition temperature of HCN, thus implying that any HCN
>generated in the combustion of the coke would also be combusted.
Now just who would take you folks seriously after all of this
bullshit and denial you have been spewing when you did not what
to here the source?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:18 PDT 1996
Article: 36838 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:19:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>I don’t want to continue that long strip because nobody would read that
>much anyway,. Needless to say, You are a sick puppy Giwer. Anyone who
>would say that Israel was to blame for the Iraqi war has to be sick.
And one would be simply at odds with recent history. But I did
not say it. So what is your point?
>Israel did not ask for the scuds and it was the Pals who danced ad sang
>on their rooves when Israel got hit. I suppose you in UK also danced
>but CNN didn’t show you. Why not?
I seem to remember the US sending Patriot batteries to Israel.
You attitude will not bring peace and it is not clear you have
any interest in peace.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:19 PDT 1996
Article: 36839 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:20:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>Roger Froikin
>>>If you want to know why that is the case, then ask the press. I’d like
>>>to know the answer as well.
>>
>> You apparently insist upon confusing Palestinians with Lebanese.
>>The bus bombing was done by Hizbollah, not the PLO. Can’t you
>>keep them separated?
>The recent bus bombings as well as many other terrorists actions,
>large and small, in Israel have been comitted by HAMAS.
>Pure Palestinean.
>Don’t expect Giwer to understand the differences…
I see. You are saying that when the Government of Israel said
the attack was against Hizbollah terrorists they were lying and
there was no justifcation for any of it. So why are you
defending Israel when they have lied about their reasons for the
attacks?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:20 PDT 1996
Article: 36840 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:20:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>There is now officially peace between Israel and the PLO.
>The Palestineans who fire-bombed several Israeli cars this
>past weekend didn’t seem to have heard about it.
Which you heard on the phone but it didn’t happen to make the
news. Of course the perps were captured and identified? Or is
this another of those “who else would” kinds of things. Do you
have any valid news source where this might be confirmed?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:21 PDT 1996
Article: 36841 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:19:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> It is often bemoaned that the US is the only ally Israel has in
>>the world. But then one is left with the problem of explaining
>>how so many other nations in the world have been so wrong for so
>>many decades.
>Oil.
Funny thing, the US lead the Gulf War. The US also lead in
dealing with Iran’s two oil embargoes. Got a better explanation
than the one that is so commonly repeated as though it were true?
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Tue May 14 05:04:21 PDT 1996
Article: 36842 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:17:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Do you think you can change? I want to see one note from you
>>>accepting
>>>>>the State of Israel and praising something it did. Now do you
>think
>>>>>you can do that for us?
>>>>
>>>> Making peace, giving up occupied territory, are all to be
>>>>encouraged but it does not seem appropriate to praise Israel for
>>>>doing the right thing. That is more like something one does in
>>>>raising a child.
>>>>
>>>> It is often bemoaned that the US is the only ally Israel has in
>>>>the world. But then one is left with the problem of explaining
>>>>how so many other nations in the world have been so wrong for so
>>>>many decades.
>>
>>>No, No, Niwer, baby, your note is about as sincere as Arafat’s
>>>announcement that he had actually changed his stripes and the
>covenent
>>>and about as worthless.
>>
>> There was no intention to do anything but to state that a listing
>>of the good things would be inappropriate in discussing a nation.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand you appear to be asking for crocadile tears
>>like Brando gave to repent for describing Hollywood as he sees
>>it.
>>
>> I speak my mind as I see it. To hell with what the rest of the
>>world wants to see or hear.
>>
>>
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>Even though you see the world through glasses that need correction.
That remains your opinion.
>And that is being kind to you. I could say worse but I always
>considered myself civilized and I always thought we in the US had
>gotten some of our civilzation from the British but if you guys from
>the UK on this board are any example, I am mistaken . You’re a throw
>back to the British mandate which was Britain at some of its worst.
Brit bashing was a favorite US passtime when the US was second to
them. Now that the tables have turned, so has the passtime.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36904 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish Control of the Internet
Date: 14 May 1996 18:06:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on4-19.netcom.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 14 1:06:23 PM CDT 1996
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It is a well-known fact that jews now control the internet. And Marduk is the
big cheese controlling the jews.
——————-
alt.revisionism
6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:51 PDT 1996
Article: 37000 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:15:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>I don’t want to continue that long strip because nobody would read
>that
>>>much anyway,. Needless to say, You are a sick puppy Giwer. Anyone
>who
>>>would say that Israel was to blame for the Iraqi war has to be sick.
>>
>> And one would be simply at odds with recent history. But I did
>>not say it. So what is your point?
>>
>>>Israel did not ask for the scuds and it was the Pals who danced ad
>sang
>>>on their rooves when Israel got hit. I suppose you in UK also danced
>>>but CNN didn’t show you. Why not?
>>
>> I seem to remember the US sending Patriot batteries to Israel.
>>
>> You attitude will not bring peace and it is not clear you have
>>any interest in peace.
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>>
>I am only interested in a fair and real peace not in a Chamberlain type
>of “piece”. I do not believe in feeding the voracious tiger, I believe
>in demobilizing him.
And what do “demoblizing” consist of in this context?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:52 PDT 1996
Article: 37005 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:58:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>There he goes again: “for what the rumor was worth…” Does this guy
>ever read books, or papers about items before he starts shooting off
>his mouth. He guesses, he supposes, he refuses to do proper research,
>and yet posts his opinions all over the place. Does he not know that
>*”Facts inform opinions and opinions inspired by different interests
>and passions, can differ widely and still be legitmate as long as they
>respect factual truth. Freedom of opinion is a farce unless factual
>information is guaranteed and the facts themselves are not in
>dispute.”
>*Deborah Lipstadt
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Alexander Baron
>>
>> >>In article
>> >>
>> >>> 1) The Soviet POW’s in Auschwitz behaved like a herd of animals.
>> >>> Hoess writes that they practiced cannibalism, and often killed
>> >>> each other for a piece of bread.
>This is true, according to Hoess, however Soviet POWs were not the
>only people in Auschwitz who behaved in a depraved fashion. Kapos
>(criminals for the most part) were the “Mafia” of Nazi concentration
>camps. SS troopers, including the Commandant Hoess played the black
>market…big time. The SS stole from each other, from incoming new
>inmates, most of whom were gassed immediatly upon their arrival. Hoess
>admits he never had real control of Auschwitz proper, and Birkeneau
>where the gassings and burnings took place was beyond Hoess and his
>subordinates. Many of the women SS guards were former prostitutes, and
>they were a mean bunch of bitches. Cannibalism took place in other
>Nazi camps as well. People treated like animals, will soon turn into
>animals. Japan’s prisons had the same problems.
>> >>
>> >>This is the sort of thing a communist would like a Nazi to write. The same
>> >>way certain Jews like to claim that I – and other Revisionists – deny that
>> >>concentration camps existed, or the way that certain “anti-racists” claim
>> >>that all white nationalists are vicious foaming at the mouth anti-black bigots.
>> >>One can find examples of this in the agents provocateurs Organised Jewry and
>> >>their fellow travellers employ.
>>
>> > In other words, you believe that Ho”ss was forced
>Hoess was not forced to testify to anything which wasn’t true. He told
>his story straight forward, and wrote his memories, in the two years
>after he had been convicted at Nuremberg, while receiving good care in
>a Polish prison, before his sentence to be hanged was carried out.
If you would ever take the time to read even what is on Nizkor
you would discover that he was first tried in Poland by the
Russians and hung about one month later.
He was not tried at Nuremberg. But then I leave it to the reader
to identify the different charges in both the trials he was given
in Poland and which charge he was acquitted of and which
condemned upon.
> to testify
>> >about cannibalism among Soviet POWs so that the Soviet populace would get
>> >angry at Nazis? But wouldn’t it make more sense for the Soviets to force
>> >him to make flowery speeches about “the heroism of Soviet POWs when faced
>> >with all manner of degradation,” etc.?
>>
>> For what the **rumor** is worth
>Rumors ain’t worth a shit. Facts tell what happened. Latrine rumors
>were just that. But some “deniers” prefere using rumors and
>scuttle-butt because that way they don’t have to prove anything.
Rather every Russian that repatriated, regardless of rank, was
executed.
>, Stalin executed at least the
>> officers who had surrendered. Why would he want the POWs
>> praised?
>Why ask stupid questions about Stalin’s rational? He was as much of a
>fruitcake as Hitler.
I love your use of technical terms.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37011 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:40:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>Roger Froikin
>>
>>>>>If you want to know why that is the case, then ask the press. I’d like
>>>>>to know the answer as well.
>>>>
>>>> You apparently insist upon confusing Palestinians with Lebanese.
>>>>The bus bombing was done by Hizbollah, not the PLO. Can’t you
>>>>keep them separated?
>>
>>>The recent bus bombings as well as many other terrorists actions,
>>>large and small, in Israel have been comitted by HAMAS.
>>>Pure Palestinean.
>>
>>>Don’t expect Giwer to understand the differences…
>>I see.
>I doubt it. You can’t see what’s in front of your nose…
>>You are saying that when the Government of Israel said
>>the attack was against Hizbollah terrorists they were lying and
>>there was no justifcation for any of it. So why are you
>>defending Israel when they have lied about their reasons for the
>>attacks?
>The real question is why should anyone bother with you anymore…
Because you wish to keep your nonsense belief system intact. And
you believe if you call enough names, you will not have to
examine your beliefs.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:14:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-19.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>>> “How many times must the cannonball fly — Before it’s forever banned?”
>>>>
>>>> When we ban Israeli cannons.
>>
>>>Let the car-bombs, the SCUDs, the Katyushas, the suicide-bombers, the
>>>Kalashnikovs, the axes, the swords roam free. Ban the Israeli defenses.
>>>Right, Giwer.
>>
>> Ban Israeli offenses.
>Giwer troll ignored.
The hard evidence on the ground, not the pious testimony, gives
the lie to the testimony.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37024 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:28:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>I don’t want to continue that long strip because nobody would read that
>>So what is your point?
>Giwer asking for a point?!?!?
>>>Israel did not ask for the scuds and it was the Pals who danced ad sang
>>>on their rooves when Israel got hit. I suppose you in UK also danced
>>>but CNN didn’t show you. Why not?
>>I seem to remember the US sending Patriot batteries to Israel.
>1) Bush sent them out of embarassment after demanding that Israel rely
> on the US for protection from Saddam’s SCUDs.
There is only one kind, Patriots.
Whenever Shwarzkopf
> went on TV to anounce that the last of the SCUD launchers had been
> taken out, Saddam launched a few more to make his point. It turned
> out that US jets were hitting Volkswagens and inflatable and plywood
> dummy decoys instead of real SCUD launchers. Bush refused to allow
> Israeli jets to take them out themselves.
Someone has been feeding you a line of bullshit. Suddenly
Israel, without aid of any kind of reconnaisance information was
going to go in and get them. You belief in this myth is truly
touching.
>2) The Patriots didn’t actually work. They turned out to cause as much
> collateral damage in Israeli cities as they might have prevented.
They were a public relations matter that satisfied Israelies.
They also prevented detonation of any of the warheads. Do you
have a problem with that?
>3) A software bug in the Patriots tracking system made them fail after
> more than a day of continous tracking operation. During the Gulf War,
> Israeli engineers developed a software patch for it.
Give yourself a break. Ask any programmer what that would in
fact take. And just where did Israel get the source code? Where
did they get the compiler? How did they learn the language?
where did they get the host computer? the drive to create the
load tapes? Was Raytheon handing out all of that classified R&D
stuff?
You use words as though you are at least 30 but have the
credulity of a child. And no dose of reality will get through to
you.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 37025 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:32:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>>[…]
>>
>>>>Yet when Buchanan used the amen corner he was asking a question
>>>>rather than making a statement to another participant on the show
>>>>and it was with regard to war against Iraq. At the time he asked
>>>>the question it was only Israel, AIPAC, and traditional Israel
>>>>supporters that were calling for war.
>>
>>>Pure, unadulterated, antisemitic lies.
>>
>> You believe calling a name makes your false assertions true. It
>>does not.
>>
>>>Not only did Israel not “call for war” to safeguard cheap gasoline
>>>for the USA,
>>
>> You memory of recent events is highly colored by what you want it
>>to be. It did call for war but not for the reason you give.
>>Israel and its supporters represented themselves as experts on
>>dealing with their generic arab and said that was the only way to
>>deal with them. In fact Israel even represented they could
>>deal with Iraq single handed.
>>
>>when Saddam attacked Israel with several dozen SCUD missiles,
>>>hitting Israeli cities, George Bush and his Secretary of State, the
>>>antisemite James “Fuck the Jews” Baker III (*) actually threatened
>>>Israeli PM Shamir that if Israeli jets retaliate for the Iraqi SCUD
>attacks,
>>>that the USAF would shoot down the IAF planes. Israel wasn’t even
>ALLOWED
>>>to join the war; Bush was terrified that his “Arab allies” would turn
>180
>>>degrees in mid-war and join the fighting against Israel – which was
>Saddam’s
>>>intention.
>>
>> That is correct and that is why they would have rightly been shot
>>down as they would have endangered the alliance which would have
>>cost the lives of troops in the alliance. And the would have
>>been shot down and Israel behaved properly during that was under
>>threat of the consequences.
>>
>>>>Consider the propagana windfall for Hussien when the war actually
>>>>came. He did not have to make up anything as to who called for
>>>>war. It gave all the credibility he could ask for when claiming
>>>>Israel and it supporters were the cause of the war against Iraq.
>>
>>>May you, Buchanan, Baker and even Bush, antisemites that you are,
>>>all burn in hell together.
>>
>> Name calling to provoke a response and then claim the name
>>calling was justifed by the response.
>>
>> Israel is not a Jewish nation. Attitudes towards Israel have
>>nothing to do with anti-semitism. You can not change history by
>>shouting anti-semitic. You can not change the politics of the
>>war by shouting anti-semitic.
>>
>> There are many nations in the world and Israel does not rank very
>>high in importance among them. And all the name calling you can
>>muster will not increase the status of Israel one iota.
>>
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>what kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>Say what you want , but Israel is a Jewish nation and no matter how you
>try it will always be a Jewish nation. Isn’t that why it is held to
>higher standards and isn’t that why you antisemites are so against it.
You lie about me and feel righteous in doing so.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:56 PDT 1996
Article: 37027 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:38:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> So lets see. One the off chance that a clearly marked ambulance
>>in Lebanon might have had a child wired with explosives and had
>>made a sharp turn south and got across the border and penetrated
>>into downtown Jerusalem, they needed to be killed. You are
>>reaching very far to excuse an attack that can not be excused.
>You can’t add 1 and 1.
>Why bother explaining to you how to get to 3?
You don’ t have to explain it to me. You have made it very
clear. All Lebanese are responsible for all Hizbollah and all
deserve the punishment for the actions of any.
You thoughts are not a secret.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37028 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:36:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <3192014f.4773[email protected]> <3193[email protected]> <4mvpc[email protected]> <3194979c.39739[email protected]> <3[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>:
>: >Jeremy Litt:
>: >”Of course, Mr. Moran has already been informed by numerous people that his
>: >logic has a huge hole in it: he assumes that each person has a
>: >*different* 120 relaitves, instead of there being numerous Jews who are
>: >realted to *more than one person.* If Mr. Moran cannot understand this
>: >concept, perhaps it is time for him to reenroll in basic math courses.”
>:
>: A lower number, just one percent (1%), Jeremy.
>..which number you chose entirely at random. Again, Tom–you don’t
>know the number of Jews in the world, you don’t know how many of
>them are related to one another, you don’t know how many of them
>had relative in Europe between 1939 and 1945, and you don’t know
>the average number of relatives lost in the Holocaust. Taking the
>number of relatives lost by one particular family (Yale’s) and
>multiplying it by a number pulled out of the air tells us nothing
>at all about the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust; it does,
>however, tell us something about the desperation with which you
>feel the need to discredit anything said by a Jew. Can you account
>for that, Tom?
Nor does one know what one considers “family.” Nuclear family,
extended family, related people that show up on a family tree,
all appear to be considered family.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37029 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:46:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <13MAY199623551734@a>
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dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>-
>->Matt Giwer writes:
>->>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>->
>-> Clear the area everyone. Tom Moran is doing math… without a net!
>->
>->>> Giwer, you have a legitimate consideration here. We have to
>->>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>->>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. In that case we would
>->>>have to multiply the Jewish figures presented by that ratio. Whoa.
>->>> So we have the Jewish 2% – lets make it 5%, giving them some
>->>>accomodation. So the 5% increased 7 1/2 times in the 210 years.
>->>>Leaving 95%. For every 5%, and in line with the Jewish increase of
>->>>4,500,000 for their 5%, we have the 4,500,000, times 19 = 85,000,000.
>->>> Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>->>>would be 220,000,000.
>->>> Wow.
>->
>-> Tommy, I have looked at this and looked at this. I don’t know what to
>-> say. For once you have left me speechless. ;/
>->
>-> I don’t know how to react to something this stupid.
>->
>->> At least someone wants to stay on topic for this conference.
>->> It is quite a number.
>->
>-> And the 163IQ is buying this garbage. Sheesh.
>-
>- Here you are saying you don’t know what to say but
>-nevertheless you said something, which as usual is just snide little
>-remarks and offers no mathematical counter address.
>- I guess your just doing the best you can.
> Its “I guess you’re just doing the best you can.” You’re welcome.
> As I have mentioned in other posts, if you present all this mathmatical
> gobbledygook in the form of one concise question or statement, I will
> address what you have to say and do whatever math is necessary to make
> the point. Right now you are all over the place so it is hard to get a
> handle on this. There seem to be two threads going:
> 1. You seem to have trouble with the concept that jewish population
> growth in Europe was different that total European population growh.
> You seem to think that this somehow proves that there were less than
> 6,000,000 Jews in Europe pre WWII. What EXACTLY are you asserting
> here? Give me specifics and I will respond.
> 2. You seem to think it impossible that SOME Jews lost 120 relatives
> during the Holocaust. You have used absurd math to back this up.
> Several people have hown you why your math/logic doesn’t work. You
> have not replied to any of those posts with a defense of your
> math/logic. Until you do, there doesn’t seem to be anythign for me to
> argue here.
> Ball is in your court.
I belive I have noted that when I mother dies I can point to the
family tree as inctrovertable proof that most of the family
ceased to exist at the same time. If I wanted to track them
down, I would have no idea where to start as she does not track
addresses or phone numbers in writing.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:58 PDT 1996
Article: 37030 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:13:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 14 10:15:53 PM CDT 1996
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Alec Grynspan
>Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>>
>> [Note: It seems Mr. Grynspan has misattributed my comment below to Mr. Curtis]
>No – my offline reader did.
>> >I’m talking about what I did.
>>
>> Mr. Grynspan, I do believe you are “confused” as to the definition of
>> “witness” in this context.
>>
>> witness n. 2 a person who saw, or can give a firsthand account of,
>> something 4 to be present at; see pesonally
>>
>> Obviously, as you have previously stated that:
>So? I certainly witnessed that I checked it out.
>Using a dictionary to cover your misdirection doesn’t hold.
>>
>> …Your father and his connections “confirmed” the identity of this
>> alleged “Al Gentile.” You made no claim of personally seeing this alleged
>> “Al Gentile” during his alleged service in WWII. At best you are
>> “confirming” what somebody has _else_ told you.
>So? That’s what I said.
>What’s your point?
>>
>> It is _because_ of this, that the “chain of evidence” is not clear, that
>> you have been asked to provide information about this alledged “Al
>> Gentile” that can be independantly verified. I am somewhat puzzled by your
>> defensiveness in stating the the same evidence used by your father and
>Why should I? I was talking about what *I* did.
>Since Matt was quoting parts of my messages, I simply verified that,
>yes, I had done some checking.
>> IS who, and what, you say he claims to be, I would think it would be in
>> YOUR benifit to provide the evidence that would allow an independant
>> confirmation of his identity. Continued evasions simply cast doubt on your
>> claims- and credibility -and leave one wondering if you are simply
>> fabricating the whole thing….
>Al Gentile’s address and phone number have already been revealed here
>in this newsgroup.
>I’ve already provided the names of people who can verify his existence.
>Are you now saying that Gord McFee is not to be trusted?
>Dave Dahlman, aka Rack Jite, goes ballistic about the same Al Gentile.
>>
>> >If you wish to refute that I’m talking about what I did, please
>> >query the witness that can verify that I’m talking about what I did
>> >yourself.
>>
>> Ah, but Mr. Grynspan, only two people have made claims that this alledged
>> “Al Gentile” was a WWII veteran, Liberator, and Righteous Person- you and
>> Giwer. Considering Giwer’s proven willingness to fabricate stories,
>False. You have *ONE* person – Matt Giwer.
No, not even me. But then, as you are learning, these folks lie
at the least opportunity and misrepresent what others have said
and then, of course, demand disproof of their lies as though that
had any meaning.
>How long have you been a member of Nambla (same type of argument).
Did you reallly think he would admit it?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 37031 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:59:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>Giwer babbles:
>> You are so clearly filled with hatred against all Muslims that
>>you have to call them all Palestinians to hide it from yourself.
>Stupid statement. Not worthy of response.
That you can not face it does not make it untrue.
>> It is inconceivable to you that they could change because you can
>>not change.
>Ditto.
also
>> What is peace worth to you? Under what terms would you accept
>>it?
>I know that the Arabs will be happy to accept peace if the Jews are
>either dead or servants to the Arabs. That’s the way it was for
>centuries. That’s the way they want it again, today. And they’re
>not shy about saying so.
How biblical even though without historic foundation.
>The same dead men that tell no tales also enjoy peace.
>The peace of the dead.
>As the protest signs at suicide bombing sites in Israel say:
>If this is peace, give me war. At least in war, civilians have
>a MUCH better chance of surviving.
If Israel ceases to occupy Lebanon first there is a possibility
of having a moral position.
But it is people like you who insist that Israel must have
complete control over the entire middle east with some Promised
Continent fantasy that have the problem.
There is no claim to the land save from religious myth.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37032 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:02:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>>>There is now officially peace between Israel and the PLO.
>>
>>>The Palestineans who fire-bombed several Israeli cars this
>>>past weekend didn’t seem to have heard about it.
>>
>> Which you heard on the phone but it didn’t happen to make the
>>news. Of course the perps were captured and identified? Or is
>>this another of those “who else would” kinds of things. Do you
>>have any valid news source where this might be confirmed?
>>
>>
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>Peace , right then why was the 17 year old Israeli American kid killed
>this weekend on the west bank after they couldn’t kill anyone on the
>bus.
I have heard that news report. Unidentified was also the last I
heard. But then “who else would have done it?” Right? It has
to be Palestinian in your mind. It can’t be Hizbollah.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:01 PDT 1996
Article: 37038 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:35:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>>Pure, unadulterated, antisemitic lies.
>>
>> You believe calling a name makes your false assertions true. It
>>does not.
>>
>>>Not only did Israel not “call for war” to safeguard cheap gasoline
>>>for the USA,
>>
>> You memory of recent events is highly colored by what you want it
>>to be. It did call for war but not for the reason you give.
>>Israel and its supporters represented themselves as experts on
>>dealing with their generic arab and said that was the only way to
>>deal with them. In fact Israel even represented they could
>>deal with Iraq single handed.
>Present a source for your claim, you antisemitic liar.
I have no interest in playing this game with you. That you do
not know the representation was made only demonstrates your
ignorance of events leading up to the war.
>> Israel is not a Jewish nation. Attitudes towards Israel have
>This goes together with “Palestineans are not Arabs.”
>You’re a dope, Giwer.
Arabs are from Arabia, or is that just a myth? Arabs and
Palestinians speak different languages. But they are all Muslims
to you so you can not tell them apart.
>>nothing to do with anti-semitism. You can not change history by
>>shouting anti-semitic. You can not change the politics of the
>>war by shouting anti-semitic.
>>
>> There are many nations in the world and Israel does not rank very
>>high in importance among them. And all the name calling you can
>>muster will not increase the status of Israel one iota.
>Neither will your trolling help your cause.
>You belong in a padded cell.
Quite the “rational” response.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:02 PDT 1996
Article: 37039 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:24:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4n[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> [email protected] (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Matt Giwer
>> >> HTML does not permit looping. The file does not contain
>> >> meaningful information even in another charset.
>> >Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK…
>> >If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to their HTTP
>> >port and send the SUBMIT packet.
>> You missed going to the site first. Requests are by email in
>> plain english. There is no form.
>Sorry, I mistook you for someone who knew what they were talking about.
>If there is no form, why were you rattling on about HTML?
Demonstrating that those who were defending that it could be done
that way were making up the defense of course.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:03 PDT 1996
Article: 37050 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:03:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (James Garner) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: You are very out of touch. Just last week whoever is in charge
>: of Israel these days CONGRATULATED Arafat for the PLO getting all
>: of those provisions removed.
> You can congradulate him on flying to the moon unassisted also.
>Nothing has changed yet.
That is correct. Palestinians and Lebanese continue to all be
called Arabs and hated.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 37052 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:51:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <4[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>>> It is over as you know. And as anyone claiming knowledge of the
>>>>Middle East knows, exaggerated and flowery language is a
>>>>trademark of the speech pattern, such as the mother of all wars.
>>>>Even eternal jihads don’t last forever.
>>
>>>If you’re so knowledgable about the Middle East, perhaps you can
>>>tell us how many Arab govts in the past half century or so have
>>>been voted in (or out), how many rulers have been assasinated,
>>>how many Arabs and Muslims have been killed by other Arabs and
>>>Muslims (usually their neighbors), how many have been killed in
>>>civil war, within their own country, and how many Arab death
>>>threats have turned from words into action.
>>
>>>Then you may comment on harmless “flowery language”.
>>
>> You are so clearly filled with hatred against all Muslims that
>>you have to call them all Palestinians to hide it from yourself.
>>
>>
>> It is inconceivable to you that they could change because you can
>>not change.
>>
>> What is peace worth to you? Under what terms would you accept
>>it?
>>
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>>
>I could ask you the same question? Under what kind of peace would you
>be willing to live. I suppose it would not for instance have mattered
>to you if the Nazis had won WWII unless they found if maybe you had
>one Jewish great grandfather.
And of course using the N word justifies any lie you want to
tell.
The question was to you. What TERMS would you accept? That the
new government is personally responsible for every nutcase in the
country?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 37059 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:50:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>On 13 May 1996 12:16:47 -0700, [email protected] (Ken McVay
>OBC) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote, after his rhetorical
>>”Where are the Indians?” question was demolished by Marty
>>Kelly:
>>> Not much for such an awesome rout happening to them. Nothing
>>>like the thousands of Holocasut books, the thousands of news papers
>>>articles, letters, columns, and TV coverage of the Holocaust which in
>>>it’s self is probably in the hundreds, if not thousands. The Holocaust
>>>is saturated.
>[snip]
>>Perhaps you should begin, Mr. Moran – could be an entire new
>>group of folks out there that you can turn your hatred
>>towards… you can write tawdry little pamphlets and sell them
>>like the Holocaust deniers do…..
>>”The Custer We Loved and Why,” by Tom Moran… a revealing
>>look at the true story, including photographs showing Custer’s
>>death in an Old Folks’ Home in Georgia, in 1907….
>>”Indians? What Indians?” by Christopher Columbus III
>>”The Mayan Myth,” by Tommy Moran
>>”The Ailing ‘Aztec’ Story: Put to Rest.” by Michael Hoffman^2
>Little Big Horn: End of a Legend
>The Hoax of the Nineteenth Century
>Wounded Knee: A Judge Laughs at the Evidence
>Was the Encampment of the Sioux Justified?
Who would care? But then who was called anti-American for
“revising” the original true story?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 37060 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 04:01:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>
>>>>>>>Male’s are about 14% fat and females 22%. So females would be more
>>>>>>>exothermic. Exothermicity of fats can be measured in bomb calorimeters
>>>>>>>and are about 9 kcal/g (1 cal = 4.184 J). Furthermore we are ignoring
>>>>>>>protein, urea, carbohydrates and other combustible materials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carrying through all the multiplications we have 0.1×0.18×9000
>>>>>>for 162 calories for the fat contribution from the remaining 1/10
>>>>>>gm of organics, using a male / female average. We are still a
>>>>>>few calories away from boiling away the water.
>>>>
>>>>>Deception alert! If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is fat,
>>>>>then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories. Mr. Giwer has no
>>>>>justification to multiply this number by .1.
>>>>
>>>> You are trying to get this heat out of the organic material that
>>>>remains AFTER the 0.9 gm of water has boiled away. Therefore you
>>>>must get it from the remaining 0.1 gm. Even if we were to go
>>>>with your mostly bloodless hamburger with 0.8 water content you
>>>>still have only 0.2 gm to work with. But with a human body,
>>>>which was the original contention, you have to boil the blood
>>>>also to make this process exothermic.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
>>>>the remaining 10% as fat. Thus the justification.
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer invents his own facts when he finds the truth inconvenient.
>>>The average male is 14% body fat. That means out of every 1 g of boy
>>>weight .14 g are fat. For women it’s 22%. Boiling blood is a
>>>diversion: we’ve already boiled the water content of the blood.
>> The percentage of body weight are of fat CELLS which contain both
>>fat and water. No, the body does not contain layers of pure
>>lard.
>Readers will note that I have never brought up the question of cells.
>The percentage of fat in human bodies as I understand it is based on an
>analysis of all compounds in the human body. If anyone has information
>to the contrary, he or she should provide a reference. The percentage
>of water is not counting some water and not other water; it is the
>total percentage of water.
If your claim is true then it is very, very strange that the
percentages you use are identical to the male, female averages
which are of cells. In any event, since they are the same as for
living people, your percentages are too high.
>> We started this discussion with you with an 80% and me with a 90%
>>water assumption. Within the limits of that we should complete
>>it. We should divert by assuming there are no fat cells but pure
>>fat.
>This paragraph needs translation into English. It sounds as if Mr.
>Giwer is asking to complete what has already been completed. If 80% of
>the body is water and 14% is fat, exothermicity has been proved. Let’s
>even make it 90% water and 10% fat (a ridiculous underestimate),
>combustion is still exothermic. If Mr. Giwer has an argument with
>substance to it, I will respond.
>> The floor is yours, Dr. Green.
>Mr. Giwer should wait about a year before addressing me as Dr.
It means you are unethical and are willing to use your pretend
credentials to deceive.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:06 PDT 1996
Article: 37065 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 02:43:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4krjsq$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Roger Froikin
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> You apparently insist upon confusing Palestinians with Lebanese.
>> The bus bombing was done by Hizbollah, not the PLO. Can’t you
>> keep them separated?
>The confusion is not on my side, Matt. Twice now you’ve failed to read
>simple English describing the failure of the press to be interested in
>attackas on Jews. Whether from one Arab group or another is not the
>question.
Neither group under discussion is Arab, neither Palestinian nor
Lebanese.
>> And what is the source of this information?
>The Jerusalem Post. Tishrin. Al-Ahram. Al-Nahar. El-Quds. and others.
>What is the source of any of your information, Matt.
A knowledge of who Arabs really are and a knowledge that you will
not say what you really mean, that is it Muslims you hate.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:07 PDT 1996
Article: 37071 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:07:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Alec Grynspan
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Your track record here stinks.
>That I said 1+1=2 and you demanded proof?
>>
>> >I’m talking about what I did.
>>
>> What did you do?
>Followed up on data pertinent to what was going on at the time. Once I
>followed up on it, that was that. I kept the info on the *RESULTS*, but
>did not think to keep the name of his outfit – which I pointed out in my
>very first post.
>>
>> >That witness is me.
>>
>> We would like to follow-up. What’s the group’s name? What was his
>> military out-fit?
>As I have stated, from the very first. *I DIDN’T KEEP THAT RECORD*.
>>
>> >As to when the Yad Vashem confirmed Al Gentile to be a righteous
>> >person – that is your assertion – you prove it!
>>
>> No, it has been yours and Giwer’s. You came to his defense! So you do
>> not claim that “Al Gentile” liberated camps and is a Righteous Gentile
>> now. Is this the way it is? Your only claim now is that “Al Gentile”
>> exists as a person. You do not support Giwer’s claims or any of the
>> claims of “Al Gentile.” Answer the questions.
>I have stated, FROM THE BEGINNING, that:
>1. Al Gentile exists. This can be proven. Gord McFee knows of Lester
>Garrett in Fidonet’s Debate echo. Lester Garrett has actually spoken to
>Al Gentile, as have I.
>2. Al Gentile is an unreliable witness. He is known to be an excellent
>raconteur, but rarely consistent. IOW – he lies a lot.
> Again – pointed out in my first posts.
>3. Al Gentile made comments that were known to be correct – that the US
>Army first told its troops in Germany that the number of Jews murdered
>was 2 Million. This was later revised when details from Poland and the
>rest of Eastern Europe were revealed in full. Get hold of a book called
>”The Abandonment of the Jews” for detais of US complicity in the
>Holocaust.
>4. Other statements made by Al lead me to believe that he was in the
>European Theatre after the war.
>5. Al’s claim to be a fighting member of the outfit was not verified.
>I’ve already stated this.
>6. Al’s outfit (presumed) was verified by me at the time by querying my
>father, who asked his own contacts.
> They were reliable. That source is no longer so. Age has caught up to
>them. My father has deteriorated frighteningly in the last couple of
>years – a combination of Alzheimer’s and heart medications.
>7. Al’s statements, as provided by Matt, are out of context with others
>that Al made. Those other statements show that Al was complaining about
>being lied to in a cover-up, that he felt that the number might have
>been higher…
> Al is definitely not an anti-semite. His wife and family would be
>very upset (wife Jewish, daughter Jewish…). Again – verifiable. I have
>HUNDREDS of messages from other folks who’ve known them for years and
>who were in Soapbox at the time.
>Other than the above, I have not come to Matt’s “defense”. I merely
>added detail to the specific statements that Matt quoted. That Matt
>interpreted those statements for his own trolls or whatever, I did not
>support.
>>
>> >Since I have stated that I no longer remember the name of the
>> >outfit from my very first message you can try obtaining some medical
>> >help to pound thru that dense mass that you call a skull.
>>
>> Poor excuse when someone comes to defend someone such as Giwer and
>> then makes all these claims about an individual no one can verify.
>> Looks bad, don’t you think? Looks dumb, stupid, idiotic, and rather
>> lame.
>Since I did not defend Matt, this is hardly valid.
>If you look back at my statements, you will note that I did not see what
>Matt posted originally. I was only seeing snippets quoted third hand
>that challenged the existence of Al Gentile and some other details.
>My action was to cover those specifics that I had data to report, no
>matter how poor.
>Your presumption that I defended Matt’s case is a victory for Matt. By
>attacking me you simply behaved in the fashion that he wanted you to.
>>
>> >I don’t remember what the outfit was. I got the name from Al over
>> >the phone. I then called my father, who contacted his friends and
>> >they were able to report back about his outfit.
>>
>> So he might have been in an unknown outfit and might be called “Al
>> Gentile” but who knows.
>No – he is called Al Gentile. If you were a resident of Long Island
>about 15 years ago you might remember a yellow-journal tabloid called
>”The Advocator”. Perhaps someone of your aquaintance might know of it.
>He published it.
>As I said, I verified the outfit. I also said that I did *NOT* verify
>that he was actually in it. I *FURTHER* said that I didn’t think to copy
>it down and staple it to my forehead.
>> >You’re nothing but an idiot who can’t get the slightest detail thru
>> >his skull. I lived in one of those cute little German camps. My
>> >relatives died in them. I will never see the brother who didn’t make
>> >it.
>>
>> But there were no no gas-chambers and no one died according to most of
>> the clowns here. I assumed you were part of the crew of deniers.
>Deniers!?! Call the Toronto Simon Wiesenthal centre and ask Sol Littman
>about me!
>Deny the death of my aunts, my uncles, the relatives that I remembered
>during Yizkor every Yom Kippur?! We lit Yarzheit candles to them and I
>was there too.
>Go look up my cousin Herschel Grynszpan. Read up on Kristallnacht.
>I don’t forget.
>[Alec {Avraham Ephraim Ben David} Grynszpan]
Hang in there. You are about to be proclaimed a neo-nazi
anti-semite.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:08 PDT 1996
Article: 37182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:28:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 7:28:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Danny, I have two books written by Hoess, and also other books written
>by SS who worked for Hoess. I’ve been to Auschwitz twice…first time
>July 1945, at which time American Brass from SHAEF were flown to
>Krakow, escorted by American made Bell P-39 Cobras, flown by Russian
>pilots.. We were treated very well by the Russians, and they made
>certain we saw everything we wanted to see. My wife and I have
>returned to Europe several times, but in May-June 1994, we went to
>Eastern Europe, Poland, The Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria, also to
>the D-Day deal in France. My outfit had a mini-reunion.
>Some books tell that Hoess was tried at Nuremberg, convicted of war
>crimes, sentenced to be hanged and turned over to the Polish
>Government (such as it was). He spent from May 25th. 1946 until April
>16th.,1947 in a Polish prison where he wrote his books. Memories.
>Daniel Keren wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> # If you would ever take the time to read even what is on Nizkor
>> # you would discover that he was first tried in Poland by the
>> # Russians and hung about one month later.
>That’s just not true.
Tell it to Nizkor.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:08 PDT 1996
Article: 37183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gang of Six rides again
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:28:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 7:28:26 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> >IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer is obviously once more mentally adrift and
>> >> >rowing with one oar. This obviously compels him to fabricate fishy tales.
>> >> >The morgues of Krema II and III were indeed origionally designed as
>> >> >morgues but prior their completion they were modified into gas chambers.
>> >>
>> >> That is what I said. What kind of reading disability do you
>> >> have?
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Lest we all forget, Giwer has been expending much hot air
>> >in insisting that the L.Kellers were “bomb shelters.”
>>
>> That is not what I have been saying.
>>
>Giwer, it has indeed been what you have been saying. Any simple search of
>your past posts will verify that you have been trying to “prove” that the
>L.Kellers were “bomb shelters.” You denial is so absurd, that it really
>isn’t worth discussing.
When you do get around to conducting that search I have simply
been comparing the claimed features that would make it a gas
chamber to those that would make it a bomb shelter. Pay
particular attention to the roof.
>> >Could it be,perhaps, that a thin ray of rationality has finally peeked its
>> >way into his tiny mind? That NOW Giwer, after the absurdity if his “bomb
>> >shelter” ruse has been exposed for the lie it was, admits that the L.Kellers
>> >were indeed origionally designed as morgues but were converted during their
>> >construction to homicidal gas chambers?
>>
>> You refuse to answer my questions.
>REALITY CHECK: Rather, I am refusing to be further ensnared in Giwer’s
>ridiculous attempts at trolling for inane fights over his fabricated
>claims and provocative innuendo. Giwer’s “questions” don’t _deserve_ an
>answer, as he refuses to carry on with a rational and civil debate. As
>Giwer has _consistantly_ refused to deal with questions asked of HIM in
>providing the evidence for HIS assertions, I see no reciprocal obligation
>on my part to answer his specious “questions.”
Before you refused to answer the roof question, I addressed every
point you raised.
>Instead, I am simply confining myself, for the most part, to refuting
>Giwer’s outrageous lies, innuendo, and assertions with the truth and
>factueal evidence. There is no point in an extended dialog with such a
>cretin. It is a waste of bandwidth and time.
You have not done any such thing but claiming it makes you feel
better.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:09 PDT 1996
Article: 37186 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Information
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:28:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 7:28:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Alec Grynspan
>I just used Dejanews to pull up Matt Giwer’s quotes from “Al Gentile”.
>I now see what the problem was.
>This is the first time that I saw these specific messages. They were
>*NOT*, repeat *NOT*, from my archives!
>The Al Gentile that I was posting about is *NOT* this fruitcake at all!
>Oh – he might be the same person physically, but this individual is
>totally around the bend.
>Much of the material that he spews here is totally contradictory to his
>material in Soapbox and Poli-Phil.
>I said that he was a pathological liar. I didn’t realise how much of one
>he was!
>No wonder his family won’t talk to him any more!
Perhaps you would be willing to post what you have?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:10 PDT 1996
Article: 37243 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!admaix.sunydutchess.edu!ub!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:32:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:35:12 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37243 soc.culture.jewish:50958 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20102 soc.culture.israel:33830
[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>Giwer Neither Jake nor I nor anyone else need lie about you. You are
>condemned by your own hand. Hilda
But you accuse me of saying things I have not said. And then you
condemn me for what I have not said. I am condemned only by your
lies.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:11 PDT 1996
Article: 37244 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!admaix.sunydutchess.edu!ub!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:32:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:35:39 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37244 soc.culture.jewish:50959 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20103 soc.culture.israel:33831
[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>Tell us all Giwer why are you so inrent on writing on the Israeli
>board.
I am writing from alt.revisionism
>Why —-are you so enamoured with Arabs? or is it as we
>suspect–nay are certain –your hatred for Jews?
If you are certain what can I possibly say?
What is it was your
>mother a maid in a Jewish home? or did your father work in a Jewish
>establishment? What caused you to hate Jews? Or did a Jewish kid
>refuse to give you his pennies when you tried to shake him down in the
>playground. Or did a Jewish girl refuse your advances? Or did a
>Jewish lawyer refuse to take your criminal case? Tell all now Giwer.
The discussion here is what the nation of Israel is doing. Some
of the people involved happen to be Jews.
But there are some people, which you exemplify very well, who
attempt to equate any comment less that laudatory about Israel as
anti-semitic. Why do you do that? Do you really believe Israel
can do not wrong? (Of course, you can answer the reverse of your
challenge to me. Name something Israel has done wrong.)
Israel happens to have a religious significance it some Jews.
That others do not share that religious reverence says thing
about their opinions of Jews.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:12 PDT 1996
Article: 37245 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:33:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:36:59 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:20104 alt.discrimination:46927 alt.revisionism:37245 alt.skinheads:23375
[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> You would compare air or contact borne to a deliberate action?
>AIDS is contact-borne.
Precisely.
>>An action quite often documented to be deliberate by
>>nondisclosure and lying when asked?
>Obviously they represent all AIDS victims because you don’t like them.
>Correct?
They are called carriers unless you are being politically
correct. Given the means of transmission they are killing each
other, are they not?
>>That is deliberate murder in
>>the book of anyone who is not politically correct. But of course
>>we can not violate the civil rights of the living to save lives
>>any longer. Quarantine is such a violation.
>The minute you step on a nail that an AIDS victim has previously stepped on, I
>expect you to be the FIRST to VOLUNTEER to go into quarantine.
It doesn’t survive when exposed to air.
>>>So in the parts of the world, where the hetrosexual AIDS rate has
>>>outstripped the gay AIDS rate, should we know call AIDS the “heterosexual
>>>disease”?
>>
>> Only the rate of increase, not the abolute numbers, of IV drug
>>using heteros as done so. There is another fast rising group,
>>hetero females but only if their partners are bisexual or IV drug
>>users. So in fact, if IV drugs are as deadly as said the only
>>victims are the women. The drugs are going to kill the men
>>anyway.
>I demand a reference.
CDC, HIV Surveillance Report.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:12 PDT 1996
Article: 37246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:33:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:36:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>
>> You are claiming 100% success in this matter? How did you know
>> where to start looking?
> Yes, there was 100% success in determining the named which we
>were successful in determining. Duh.
> Start looking for what? Where my family came from? We knew that
>already, “Edeiken” and the variants thereof, is not a hard name to trace.
The question of success was in regard to tracing everyone after
the war.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:13 PDT 1996
Article: 37247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:33:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:36:48 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># If you would ever take the time to read even what is on Nizkor
># you would discover that he was first tried in Poland by the
># Russians and hung about one month later.
>Wasn’t Hoess tried by the Poles? Can anyone check this?
He was turned over to be tried in Poland at the demand of General
Rudenko. Now if there is going to be a great issue raised over
the governmental jurisdiction of the court rather than deal with
the issue we might as well drop this right now.
># Rather every Russian that repatriated, regardless of rank, was
># executed.
>Then how come former Soviet POW’s who were held in Auschwitz
>lived to testify in the Frankfurt Trial in 1963-5?
The repatriated ones. The ones who had tried to get asylum with
other countries.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:14 PDT 1996
Article: 37248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:28:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 7:28:18 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37248 soc.culture.jewish:50962 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20105 soc.culture.israel:33832
[email protected] (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> Under what terms short of the extermination of every non-Israeli
>> for 500 miles in every direction would you accept peace?
>> ——————-
>> alt.revisionism
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Mr. Giwer:
>
>Please remove alt. revisionism from this thread. It is off-topic.
So is holocaust orthodoxy.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:15 PDT 1996
Article: 37249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:28:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <15MAY199607150333@a>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 7:28:20 PM CDT 1996
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dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>-dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote to Tom Moran:
>-
>-> As I have mentioned in other posts, if you present all this mathmatical
>-> gobbledygook in the form of one concise question or statement, I will
>-> address what you have to say and do whatever math is necessary to make
>-> the point. Right now you are all over the place so it is hard to get a
>-> handle on this. There seem to be two threads going:
>-
>-> 1. You seem to have trouble with the concept that jewish population
>-> growth in Europe was different that total European population growh.
>-> You seem to think that this somehow proves that there were less than
>-> 6,000,000 Jews in Europe pre WWII. What EXACTLY are you asserting
>-> here? Give me specifics and I will respond.
>-
>-> 2. You seem to think it impossible that SOME Jews lost 120 relatives
>-> during the Holocaust. You have used absurd math to back this up.
>-> Several people have hown you why your math/logic doesn’t work. You
>-> have not replied to any of those posts with a defense of your
>-> math/logic. Until you do, there doesn’t seem to be anythign for me to
>-> argue here.
>-
>-> Ball is in your court.
>-
>- I belive I have noted that when I mother dies I can point to the
>-family tree as inctrovertable proof that most of the family
>-ceased to exist at the same time. If I wanted to track them
>-down, I would have no idea where to start as she does not track
>-addresses or phone numbers in writing.
> Yes you have. It was nonresponsive before and it it nonresponsive now.
That you would prefer not to address it indicates only that you
can not.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:16 PDT 1996
Article: 37269 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 03:37:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <199605[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 10:37:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>Mr. Curtis and Mr. Van Alstine,
>It seems to me that Mr. Grynszpan is who he says he is. I think we
>should be careful about being fair to him. That Mr. Giwer claims Mr.
>Grynszpan is supporting him does not make it so.
I made no such claim.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:14:17 PDT 1996
Article: 37312 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 03:25:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 10:29:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37312 soc.culture.jewish:51060 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20138 soc.culture.israel:33869
Roger Froikin
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> That is correct. Palestinians and Lebanese continue to all be
>> called Arabs and hated.
>Palestinian Arabs and Lebanese Arabs refer to themselves and define
>themselves as Arabs.
Citified bedouins at best. But then if you really want to be
corrected and hear the other story, just state that Palestinians
have a greater claim to Palestine as they were there first. At
which time you will hear the story of their having migrated into
the area about 100 years ago.
Arabs came from the eastern end of the penisula, that place they
call Arabia. Perhaps you have heard of it? Every evidence from
written history and archaeology indicates the people’s bordering
the Med have had a different culture.
>Who do you think hates them. Perhaps the people you know.
The same sort of people who lump all Jews together are those who
lump all Muslims together under the name, Arab. Given the way I
have seen it used here, it would appear the equivalent of nigger.
Or take the Hilda challenge, say something good about them.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:44:57 PDT 1996
Article: 20104 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:33:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> You would compare air or contact borne to a deliberate action?
>AIDS is contact-borne.
Precisely.
>>An action quite often documented to be deliberate by
>>nondisclosure and lying when asked?
>Obviously they represent all AIDS victims because you don’t like them.
>Correct?
They are called carriers unless you are being politically
correct. Given the means of transmission they are killing each
other, are they not?
>>That is deliberate murder in
>>the book of anyone who is not politically correct. But of course
>>we can not violate the civil rights of the living to save lives
>>any longer. Quarantine is such a violation.
>The minute you step on a nail that an AIDS victim has previously stepped on, I
>expect you to be the FIRST to VOLUNTEER to go into quarantine.
It doesn’t survive when exposed to air.
>>>So in the parts of the world, where the hetrosexual AIDS rate has
>>>outstripped the gay AIDS rate, should we know call AIDS the “heterosexual
>>>disease”?
>>
>> Only the rate of increase, not the abolute numbers, of IV drug
>>using heteros as done so. There is another fast rising group,
>>hetero females but only if their partners are bisexual or IV drug
>>users. So in fact, if IV drugs are as deadly as said the only
>>victims are the women. The drugs are going to kill the men
>>anyway.
>I demand a reference.
CDC, HIV Surveillance Report.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:44:58 PDT 1996
Article: 20151 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:38:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 11:41:24 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>Giwer Neither Jake nor I nor anyone else need lie about you. You
>are
>>>condemned by your own hand. Hilda
>>
>> But you accuse me of saying things I have not said. And then you
>>condemn me for what I have not said. I am condemned only by your
>>lies.
>>—–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>I guess I am more “MAN” than you.
Your line of “insults” appears to heavily gravitate towards
sexual references. Is there some point to it?
I am willing to admit I’m wrong when
>I’m wrong —but I’m sure as “hell” not wrong about you. Keep writing
>you dig your own pit Your reputation is intact.
What might be the consequences of this save for the constant mail
bombing and phone calls by those who have made it a personal
vendetta to “make me pay” for what I am saying? What is that
doing to “your” reputation?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 12:44:59 PDT 1996
Article: 20152 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:47:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>Arafat (’74)
>Since you predict that Jews and Arabs cannot live in peace in Israel.
>I suggest that you and the rest of your terrorist friends take yourself
>to your brother Arab countries where you originally came from anyway..
>Israel belongs to Israelis –Jews and those Israeli Arabs who like
>living in the only democracy in the middle east. We already know how
>they treat you.
> The feeling of nationalism of Palestinian Arabs is only less than 30
>years old so don’t try to make more of the BIG LIE. Jewish nationalism
>goes back more than 3000 years.
I thought you were against revising history?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Thu May 16 13:24:09 PDT 1996
Article: 49970 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!academ!insync!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 03:24:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <4n[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-19.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>> [email protected] (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Matt Giwer
>> >> HTML does not permit looping. The file does not contain
>> >> meaningful information even in another charset.
>> >Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK…
>> >If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to their HTTP
>> >port and send the SUBMIT packet.
>> You missed going to the site first. Requests are by email in
>> plain english. There is no form.
>Sorry, I mistook you for someone who knew what they were talking about.
>If there is no form, why were you rattling on about HTML?
Demonstrating that those who were defending that it could be done
that way were making up the defense of course.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:19 PDT 1996
Article: 37345 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:38:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 11:41:24 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>Giwer Neither Jake nor I nor anyone else need lie about you. You
>are
>>>condemned by your own hand. Hilda
>>
>> But you accuse me of saying things I have not said. And then you
>>condemn me for what I have not said. I am condemned only by your
>>lies.
>>—–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>I guess I am more “MAN” than you.
Your line of “insults” appears to heavily gravitate towards
sexual references. Is there some point to it?
I am willing to admit I’m wrong when
>I’m wrong —but I’m sure as “hell” not wrong about you. Keep writing
>you dig your own pit Your reputation is intact.
What might be the consequences of this save for the constant mail
bombing and phone calls by those who have made it a personal
vendetta to “make me pay” for what I am saying? What is that
doing to “your” reputation?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 37346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:47:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>Arafat (’74)
>Since you predict that Jews and Arabs cannot live in peace in Israel.
>I suggest that you and the rest of your terrorist friends take yourself
>to your brother Arab countries where you originally came from anyway..
>Israel belongs to Israelis –Jews and those Israeli Arabs who like
>living in the only democracy in the middle east. We already know how
>they treat you.
> The feeling of nationalism of Palestinian Arabs is only less than 30
>years old so don’t try to make more of the BIG LIE. Jewish nationalism
>goes back more than 3000 years.
I thought you were against revising history?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:21 PDT 1996
Article: 37348 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:02:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31921C12.629C@gryn.org> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 12:07:15 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>Alec Grynspan
>>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>
>>> Sure. Because you offer nothing that meets the historical test and
>>> hear-say just doesn’t do it. You are not a witness for you don’t meet
>>It isn’t hearsay. I witnessed the events that I have verified.
>No, you did not witness Mr. Gentile’s events. If you want to present
>your testimony, then fire away.
Why are not the “testimony” of other people that is often quoted
in this conference treated in the same manner as Al Gentile’s?
You folks quote someone probably long dead as saying “I was an
inmate” or “I was a camp guard” and yet you never demand the same
evidence of these claims as you do for this person.
Why is that?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 37353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:11:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 12:15:26 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>>Readers will note that I have never brought up the question of cells.
>>>The percentage of fat in human bodies as I understand it is based on an
>>>analysis of all compounds in the human body. If anyone has information
>>>to the contrary, he or she should provide a reference. The percentage
>>>of water is not counting some water and not other water; it is the
>>>total percentage of water.
>>
>> If your claim is true then it is very, very strange that the
>>percentages you use are identical to the male, female averages
>>which are of cells.
>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
It is not considered ethical to render human bodies to get a
differentiation between cells and fat content. You might call
over to the physiology department and find out.
>>In any event, since they are the same as for
>>living people, your percentages are too high.
>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
Can you provide sources for your claim? You simply introduced it
without support of footnote.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 37357 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold: Leader
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:25:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4mbmb2$sh[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] wrote:
>[76 lines of quoted material snipped so Mr. Giwer could type the following:]
>> I hope you are not surprised by this.
>>
>Please learn to use your editor, Mr. Giwer. 163 IQ should make it easy for you.
When the messenger to me has used his, I do. When they do not, I
do not. I note that you have only posted to me.
What point do you think you are demonstrating by this?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:23 PDT 1996
Article: 37440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:26:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-06.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>> The discussion here is what the nation of Israel is doing. Some
>>of the people involved happen to be Jews.
>>
>> But there are some people, which you exemplify very well, who
>>attempt to equate any comment less that laudatory about Israel as
>>anti-semitic. Why do you do that? Do you really believe Israel
>>can do not wrong? (Of course, you can answer the reverse of your
>>challenge to me. Name something Israel has done wrong.)
>>
>> Israel happens to have a religious significance it some Jews.
>>That others do not share that religious reverence says thing
>>about their opinions of Jews.
>>
>>
>>—–
>>
>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>I am perfectly willing to say when Israel is wrong. Israel is wrong
>for bowing to world oppinion and giving up land which is rightfully
>theirs and attempting to accept as partners peoples who are visibly
>eager for their demise.
What land has Israel given up that is “rightfully” theirs? The
last I heard, signatories to the UN Charter had abjured the
acquisition of land by military conquest.
On the other hand, I really do not think you are in the spirit of
saying what Israel has done wrong. It appears you are saying
they only things it has done wrong are things that are intended
to result in the end of the violence.
>See I AM MORE MAN THAN YOU. You refuse to answer my simple
>queston–why? But Historical revisionism proves more about you than
>you guess.
And a dogmatic acceptance in a version of history that at some
point in time was deemed absolutely correct and complete
indicates the religious nature of that version of history for
you.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:24 PDT 1996
Article: 37469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Racism should be illegal?
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:27:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.discrimination:47013 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20216 alt.revisionism:37469 alt.skinheads:23563 can.politics:45599 soc.culture.canada:88190
[email protected] (Michel Hell) wrote:
>Silly one,
>Racism is illegal.
Where?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:25 PDT 1996
Article: 37471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold: Leader
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:35:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4mbmb2$sh[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:20217 alt.discrimination:47014 alt.revisionism:37471 alt.skinheads:23564 can.politics:45602
[email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >Please learn to use your editor, Mr. Giwer. 163 IQ should make it easy
>for you.
>>
>> When the messenger to me has used his, I do. When they do not, I
>> do not. I note that you have only posted to me.
>>
>> What point do you think you are demonstrating by this?
>>
>I am demonstrating that you are a rude, insensitive, childish clod. And
>demonstrating it quite well, I think.
>
>I edited my post to *you*, Mr. Giwer. You however, quoted the entire post
>back. Therefore your “When the messenger to me has used his, I do. When
>they do not, I do not” is yet another one of your lies.
>Go away, little man. You’re way out of your league here.
And none of your fellow holohuggers will disagree with you and
thus encourage you.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:25 PDT 1996
Article: 37495 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 07:45:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 2:43:36 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> The question of success was in regard to tracing everyone after
>> the war.
>>
>>>>>
> Then the answer is still the same. We were 100% successful in
>tracing those who we were able to trace. Conversely we were 0% successful in
>tracing those who we were unable to trace.
Meaning only that you presume those you were unable to trace died
during the war. You presumption is your business but it is not
evidence in the least. You equate your failure with death. That
is not reasonable.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:26 PDT 1996
Article: 37496 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 07:48:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31921C12.629C@gryn.org> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4nd01p$t7[email protected]> <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 2:46:07 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>Alec Grynspan
>>>>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. Because you offer nothing that meets the historical test and
>>>>> hear-say just doesn’t do it. You are not a witness for you don’t meet
>>>>It isn’t hearsay. I witnessed the events that I have verified.
>>>No, you did not witness Mr. Gentile’s events. If you want to present
>>>your testimony, then fire away.
>> Why are not the “testimony” of other people that is often quoted
>>in this conference treated in the same manner as Al Gentile’s?
>Beats me, Matt. I believe it it has.
Your belief is not in accord with the facts.
>>You folks quote someone probably long dead as saying “I was an
>>inmate” or “I was a camp guard” and yet you never demand the same
>>evidence of these claims as you do for this person.
>We don’t? What evidence do you have of this, Mr. Giwer? 🙂
>(BTW, this is quite funny.)
Only those who believe ridicule is refutation do so.
>> Why is that?
>You first.
You can’t answer?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:27 PDT 1996
Article: 37509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:04:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 5:05:04 AM CDT 1996
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Cliff Swiger <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi Matt:
>You do an excellent job here in alt.revisionism, keep up the
>great work.
>I find it interesting that the Jews, at one time or another, have
>been expelled from nearly every European nation. What should
>interest the lurkers in this newsgroup is “WHY”? It should also
>be apparent that suspicion of the Jews is not a 20th century
>concern but one that goes back at least hundreds of years by many
>different nations. For this sort of treatment to occur to “God’s
>Chosen” there must have been justification.
They were not Christian and the social structured required people
to be Christian. It isn’t hard to understand in the least.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:28 PDT 1996
Article: 37515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!news.memphis.edu!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:05:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <318f4e4c.38529[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <[email protected]> <16MAY199606123297@'a>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
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dmittleman@’a (Danny) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>-dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote to Tom Moran:
>>>-
>>>-> As I have mentioned in other posts, if you present all this mathmatical
>>>-> gobbledygook in the form of one concise question or statement, I will
>>>-> address what you have to say and do whatever math is necessary to make
>>>-> the point. Right now you are all over the place so it is hard to get a
>>>-> handle on this. There seem to be two threads going:
>>>-
>>>-> 1. You seem to have trouble with the concept that jewish population
>>>-> growth in Europe was different that total European population growh.
>>>-> You seem to think that this somehow proves that there were less than
>>>-> 6,000,000 Jews in Europe pre WWII. What EXACTLY are you asserting
>>>-> here? Give me specifics and I will respond.
>>>-
>>>-> 2. You seem to think it impossible that SOME Jews lost 120 relatives
>>>-> during the Holocaust. You have used absurd math to back this up.
>>>-> Several people have hown you why your math/logic doesn’t work. You
>>>-> have not replied to any of those posts with a defense of your
>>>-> math/logic. Until you do, there doesn’t seem to be anythign for me to
>>>-> argue here.
>>>-
>>>-> Ball is in your court.
>>>-
>>>- I belive I have noted that when I mother dies I can point to the
>>>-family tree as inctrovertable proof that most of the family
>>>-ceased to exist at the same time. If I wanted to track them
>>>-down, I would have no idea where to start as she does not track
>>>-addresses or phone numbers in writing.
>>
>>> Yes you have. It was nonresponsive before and it it nonresponsive now.
>>
>> That you would prefer not to address it indicates only that you
>>can not.
> No, I was choosing not to address it as it has nothing to do with the
> discussion Tom Moran and I were having. But as you insist:
> You say:
>>>- I belive I have noted that when I mother dies I can point to the
>>>-family tree as inctrovertable proof that most of the family
>>>-ceased to exist at the same time. If I wanted to track them
>>>-down, I would have no idea where to start as she does not track
>>>-addresses or phone numbers in writing.
> I say:
> This statement makes no sense to me. Take you time to srite it agina
> without typos so I can parse you meaning.
Typos? You do have a sense of humor at least.
> If you are saying that when my mother dies we will lose all record of
> the relatives she has found because “she does not track addresses or
> phone numbers in writing.” That is factually incorrect. That is
> counter to how most every trained genealogist works. That is a pretty
> stupid thing to assert.
When the geneology ceases to be maintained, one can simply point
to the cessation as evidence everyone died as they have no
progeny.
> To other readers: Giwer deleted out the paragraph I included in my
> last response explaining my hesitation to get into a discussion with
> him. It went:
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
> is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he
> has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
> of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
> contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
> emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
> himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
> that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond.
> For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
And people have the balls to complain about my messages when
there is the regular waste of bandwidth? And you folks continue
to do so with such clearly false statements while refusing to
document your own statements or any of the above.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:29 PDT 1996
Article: 37516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:11:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 11:13:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Alec Grynspan
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> Grynspan, says he is a “Holocaust Victim.” He was in some DP camp
>> after the war ended.
>> Question: where was Grynspan during the time the war was being fought?
>>
>> Fact: Most people who were released from Nazi concentration camps
>> spent some time in DP camps. But I never heard of someone just being
>> placed in DP camp for no reason.
>Fact: Not all victims were in a concentration camp.
>Where did I say that I was in a concentration camp? I would have had to
>have been born in one to have been there. Ever hear of Siberia? My
>parents escaped there, although not some of my aunts and uncles, who
>waited too long.
>> Question: Why was Grynspan placed in a DP camp?
>See above. BTW – the route back was via Iran. I’m mentioning it here so
>that I can cram it down your throat if it crops up later.
>> He refers to his father as having been booted out of Germany by the
>> Allies, because “he knew too much.”
>Please post the message where I said that. You were willing to get
>messages from DejaNews to toss back at Giwer – why not in my case? Could
>it be that it shows that I’ve been consistently saying the same thing
>all along. You revisionists hate that, don’t you?
>>
>> Question: what did Grynspan’s father know that would cause him to be
>> kicked out of Germany by the Allies?
>Question: Where did you place your remaining brain cell that you can’t
>find it now? Again – you set up a straw man and then crow in triumph
>over it.
>Question: How do you differ from Tom Moran?
>Answer: You don’t.
None of them do. And they all support each other in doing it.
Support for the holocaust in this NG consists of ridicule and
calling nazi and antisemitic for any reason or no reason.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:30 PDT 1996
Article: 37517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ValueJet Crash Caused by Marduk
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:25:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4n8qpo$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 11:28:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Mike Stein) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>
>>I have incontrovertable proof that the ValueJet Crash was part of a
>>larger jew plot masterminded by Marduk.
> And I have incontrovertable proof this posting is (sigh) yet another
>forgery. Check the headers. It looks pretty clear that another Netcom user
>wrote this from Canada.
> However, given the size of Netcom, and the fact that other Netcom users
>can forge Giwer posts with gay abandon, perhaps Mr. Giwer might consider
>PGP signing his posts. Then again, since it would deprive him of his ability
>to lie about not having written something, he probably won’t.
If everyone were to take up that habit it might be worth pursuing
but the largest lie, that I was not insulted first with the name
calling of nazi and antisemite has already been told and accepted
so that game is lost. Now you folks feel free to lie about me
knowing your fellows will not contradict you.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 14:35:30 PDT 1996
Article: 37557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 03:56:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 10:59:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>
>>
>>>>>Readers will note that I have never brought up the question of cells.
>>>>>The percentage of fat in human bodies as I understand it is based on an
>>>>>analysis of all compounds in the human body. If anyone has information
>>>>>to the contrary, he or she should provide a reference. The percentage
>>>>>of water is not counting some water and not other water; it is the
>>>>>total percentage of water.
>>>>
>>>> If your claim is true then it is very, very strange that the
>>>>percentages you use are identical to the male, female averages
>>>>which are of cells.
>>
>>>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
>>
>> It is not considered ethical to render human bodies to get a
>>differentiation between cells and fat content. You might call
>>over to the physiology department and find out.
>>
>>>>In any event, since they are the same as for
>>>>living people, your percentages are too high.
>>
>>>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
>>
>> Can you provide sources for your claim? You simply introduced it
>>without support of footnote.
>Mr. Giwer has no source for his claim.
I need to but you need not. You appear to have a problem with
one sided application of criteria. But then all of you
holohuggers have the same problem.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Fri May 17 21:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 23375 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:33:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 15 6:36:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:20104 alt.discrimination:46927 alt.revisionism:37245 alt.skinheads:23375
[email protected] (Cthulhu) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> You would compare air or contact borne to a deliberate action?
>AIDS is contact-borne.
Precisely.
>>An action quite often documented to be deliberate by
>>nondisclosure and lying when asked?
>Obviously they represent all AIDS victims because you don’t like them.
>Correct?
They are called carriers unless you are being politically
correct. Given the means of transmission they are killing each
other, are they not?
>>That is deliberate murder in
>>the book of anyone who is not politically correct. But of course
>>we can not violate the civil rights of the living to save lives
>>any longer. Quarantine is such a violation.
>The minute you step on a nail that an AIDS victim has previously stepped on, I
>expect you to be the FIRST to VOLUNTEER to go into quarantine.
It doesn’t survive when exposed to air.
>>>So in the parts of the world, where the hetrosexual AIDS rate has
>>>outstripped the gay AIDS rate, should we know call AIDS the “heterosexual
>>>disease”?
>>
>> Only the rate of increase, not the abolute numbers, of IV drug
>>using heteros as done so. There is another fast rising group,
>>hetero females but only if their partners are bisexual or IV drug
>>users. So in fact, if IV drugs are as deadly as said the only
>>victims are the women. The drugs are going to kill the men
>>anyway.
>I demand a reference.
CDC, HIV Surveillance Report.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:30 PDT 1996
Article: 37629 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:21:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <31861a38[email protected]> <[email protected]> <319a0389.56634760@news>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 16 11:23:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:
>On Sun, 05 May 96 12:15:58 GMT, Alexander Baron
>
>>In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “tom moran” writes:
>>
>>>
>>> The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
>>> “eyewitness” accounts of what they saw.
>>>
>>
>>A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>>Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions –
>>Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>>given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.
>>
>(Mr. Baron’s sig snipped)
>Sorry Mr. Baron, you once again disappoint me, seems that you just
>can’t stroke Mr. Moran hard enough with your, “A perfect analogy Mr.
>Moran,” nonsense. The Holocaust is supported mostly by “‘eyewitness’
>accounts”, rather it is supported by tangible proof, i.e.
>concentration camps that weren’t destroyed, Nazi documents,
>(eyewitness perpatrators), Nazi’s themselves (again eyewitness
>perpatrator) and then of course the victims, (eyewitness victims)
>seems Mr. Baron that in being so effusive with your lauditory praise
>of Mr. Moran, you didn’t notice that Mr. Moran, like the king with
>no-clothes, was naked, or sans the truth.
>So much for any critical reading skills, or logic you thought you may
>have possessed.
>Once again Mr. Baron, you have inserted your foot into your mouth and
>swizzled it around for all to see, and laugh at you.
You mean witnesses that you folks never, ever prove were in fact
victims? People that you never can prove they actually witnessed
what they were talking about? You mean those witnesses?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:31 PDT 1996
Article: 37636 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 23:27:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 6:29:35 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37636 soc.culture.jewish:51497 alt.politics.nationalism.white:20282 soc.culture.israel:34025
[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>Giwer) writes:
>>
>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>
>>>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt
>>>Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Giwer Neither Jake nor I nor anyone else need lie about you. You
>>>are
>>>>>condemned by your own hand. Hilda
>>>>
>>>> But you accuse me of saying things I have not said. And then you
>>>>condemn me for what I have not said. I am condemned only by your
>>>>lies.
>>>>—–
>>>>
>>>> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>>>>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>>
>>>I guess I am more “MAN” than you.
>>
>> Your line of “insults” appears to heavily gravitate towards
>>sexual references. Is there some point to it?
>>
>>I am willing to admit I’m wrong when
>>>I’m wrong —but I’m sure as “hell” not wrong about you. Keep
>writing
>>>you dig your own pit Your reputation is intact.
>>
>> What might be the consequences of this save for the constant mail
>>bombing and phone calls by those who have made it a personal
>>vendetta to “make me pay” for what I am saying? What is that
>>doing to “your” reputation?
>Are you accusing me of something? You better be damn sure you know
>what you are saying or you may be talking to a court of law.
What court takes violation of “netiquette” seriously? Or do your
courts consider all violations of etiquette worthy of
consideration?
But note the your is in quotation marks. I would never assume
that you personally have the knowledge to do such things.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:32 PDT 1996
Article: 37638 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:53:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:54:25 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[Giwer rave snipped]
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> >From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66:
>> >>
>> >> It is also surprising for such a stickler on credentials that you
>> >> would cite a man with a doctorate in planetary atmospheres.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, unable to address the argument simply resorts to
>> >argumentum ad hominem.
>>
>> Which I extensively addressed and you deleleted. Who are you
>> playing with but yourself?
>>
>Mr. Giwer:
>
>The word [snip] in brackets indicates that the person responding to your
>verbal spewings does not want to annoy the rest of us by massive quoting
>and bandwidth wasting. It’s called “editing,” Mr. Giwer, something I
>fervently hope you will learn to do in the near future.
>
>If a person wished to be deceptive, they would not include the word
>[snip]. That word is purposefully placed there to show the quoter is NOT
>being deceptive.
A lot of words but in fact I did addess the points raised by what
was quoted from Sagan and my correspondant deleted all of them
demonstrating that he himself is unable to comprehend what he was
quoting.
>There are a number of good books out there on how this all works,Mr.
>Giwer. With a 163 IQ, I imagine you’ll have no problem locating them.
As I have been doing this long enough to have contributed to what
is being written about I don’t see the need.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:33 PDT 1996
Article: 37641 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 23:52:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 4:47:21 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
><*[*] [*] [[email protected]] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[US Jew harrasses Internet user] [Mon 13 May 96 13:45][Thu 16 May 96
>19:54][0]*>
> >> HTML does not permit looping. The file does not contain
> >> meaningful information even in another charset.
> pc> Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on
> pc> BACK…
> pc> If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to
> pc> their HTTP port and send the SUBMIT packet.
>You’re assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher’bot, not a
>web page at all!
Yes, Alec, I do understand it. And my son maintains an ISP and a
mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.
Now if you would like to look again at the gopher header you play
around a bit with the addr, try adding www to it on a browser for
example, and you will find it is connected to that one site and
organization.
When you get to that you will find there is one way to get
information, email, plain english, not automated.
That means that at best for the organization, their system was
hacked and the bot set. At worst for the organization it was a
member of the organization with root access.
If you have another explanation I will be interested in reading
it.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:33 PDT 1996
Article: 37652 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:00:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 5:59:42 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[email protected] (Ceacaa) writes:
># The existing holes in the concrete roof of one of the major
># gaschambers (Leichenkeller 1 of Crema II at Birkenau appear to
># have been hastily chipped in and have no sign of any attachments
># or fittings. Re-bar still transects the holes.
>Pressac’s book contains a photo of a portion of the roof that
>contains a hole with the rebar still in it. However, this hole
>is rather close to the wall (that is, it’s on the side of the
>roof). It could not have been one of the Zyklon insertion
>holes, as these were in the middle.
>Moreover, the portion of the roof which contains this hole is
>collapsed and heavily damaged.
>It’s quite obvious that this hole was created when the chamber
>was dynamited. Your point is therefore moot; this was not one
>of the introduction holes.
>I suspect that’s the real reason you have not posted the photos
>you claim to have of the holes. You knew your bluff would be
>called. Either that, or you’re too stupid to understand that
>simply posting the photos you claim to have would have been
>much more constructive than your endless repetitive posting.
># I do not agree with Professor Faurisson’s statement,
># “No holes, no Holocaust”.
>What’s the matter? You miserable Nazi imbeciles cannot decide if
>there are holes in the roof or not?
Use the N word and declare victory.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:34 PDT 1996
Article: 37653 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:56:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:54:28 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Readers will note that I have never brought up the question of cells.
>>>>>>>The percentage of fat in human bodies as I understand it is based on an
>>>>>>>analysis of all compounds in the human body. If anyone has information
>>>>>>>to the contrary, he or she should provide a reference. The percentage
>>>>>>>of water is not counting some water and not other water; it is the
>>>>>>>total percentage of water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If your claim is true then it is very, very strange that the
>>>>>>percentages you use are identical to the male, female averages
>>>>>>which are of cells.
>>>>
>>>>>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
>>>>
>>>> It is not considered ethical to render human bodies to get a
>>>>differentiation between cells and fat content. You might call
>>>>over to the physiology department and find out.
>>>>
>>>>>>In any event, since they are the same as for
>>>>>>living people, your percentages are too high.
>>>>
>>>>>Can Mr. Giwer provide a source for this claim?
>>>>
>>>> Can you provide sources for your claim? You simply introduced it
>>>>without support of footnote.
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer has no source for his claim.
>>
>> I need to but you need not. You appear to have a problem with
>>one sided application of criteria. But then all of you
>>holohuggers have the same problem.
>Mr. Giwer essentially admits that he made it up. He has no source.
>I have done enough of his homework for him.
And, Greenie, you admit you made your up also. So what is your
point is all of this? A troll understudy?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:35 PDT 1996
Article: 37656 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ValueJet Crash Caused by Marduk
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 23:37:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4n8qpo$mt[email protected]> <4nfoum$nv[email protected]> <4ng[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: If everyone were to take up that habit it might be worth pursuing
>: but the largest lie, that I was not insulted first with the name
>: calling of nazi and antisemite has already been told and accepted
>: so that game is lost. Now you folks feel free to lie about me
>: knowing your fellows will not contradict you.
>I don’t recall anyone calling you a Nazi until well into the mutual
>slam-fest; you were called an antisemite early on because, by the
>evidence of your own posts, you are one.
Of course you would not admit to remembering it.
But since I have discussed these matters before, I carefully
refrained from any such thing until what I knew was coming
finally came. It always comes to anyone who does not accept the
dogmatic view of the holocaust.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:36 PDT 1996
Article: 37659 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319b2bec.819[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 8:27:22 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>> [email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> Who knows, perhaps someone who had access to the files saw a
>> decrease in the shipments of Zyklon B to the camp during the time the
>> mass exterminations were said to have taken place and this is what
>> gave him/them the incentive to purloin some of the records.
>>
>And perhpas Moran, responding to Moran, is pulling specious denier
>fantasies out of thin air again?
>From _The Destruction of the European Jews_, Hillberg; pp.570-571:
Do you read this stuff before you post it?
>”The amounts required by Auschwitz were not large, but they were
>noticable.
5 tons is not large.
Almost the whole Auschwitz supply was needed for the gassing of
>people; very little was used for fumigation.[1] The camp administration
>itself did not but the gas. The purchaser was Obersturmfu”hrer Gerstein,
>Chief Disinfection Officer in the Office of the Hygenic Chief of the
>Waffen-SS (Mrugowski).[2] As a rule, all orders passed throught he hands
>of TESTA, DEGESCH, and Dessau. From Dessau Works, which produced the gas,
>shipments were sent directly to Auschwitz Extermination and Fumigation
>Division (Abteilung Entwesung und Entseuchung).[3]
>”Notification generally came from Amtsgruppe D, which authorized the
>Auschwitz administration to dispatch a truck to Dessau ‘to pick up
>meterials for the Jewish resettlement’ (Abholung von Materialien fu”r die
>Judenumsiedlung).[4] Delevieries to SS installations for fumigation
>purposes were made every six months or so, but Auschwitz required a
>shipment every six weeks because Zyklon deteriorated easily and a supply
>had to be on hand at all times. To discerning eyes that frequency was
>noticeable too. [5]
5 tons to be used up in 6 weeks is not large.
[It lasts six months for fumigation but six weeks for people.]
>”The delivery system worked dependably until March, 1944, when the Dessau
>Zyklon plant was bombed and heavily damaged.[6] The sudden curtailment of
>the supply came at a time when the SS was making reparations to send
>750,000 Jews to Auschwitz- then the only killing center still in
>existance. A crisis developed. On April 5, 1944, a Mrugowski
>representative wrote to DEGESCH requsting immediate shipment of 5 tons of
>Zyklon B without odor ingrediant;
Here of course is the 5 tons.
the shipment had already been approved
>by the Armed Forces Main Sanitation Park and was ‘urgently needed’
>(dringendst beno”tigt) by the Waffen-SS.[7] A week later Dr. Evers of
>Armed Forces Danitation himself ordered about 2800 kg. and had them
>shipped to Auschwitz. TESTA hurriedly inquired who was to be billed.[8] A
>DEGESCH official became worried that the production of Zyklon without odor
>ingrediant would endanger the firm’s monopoly.[9] The High Command of the
>Navy protested that it urgently needed Zyklon for the fumigation of
>ships.[10]
>”The SS in the meantime began to be concerned over the possibility that it
>had recieved the Zyklon too early. On May 24 the disinfection officer,
>Obersturmfu”hrer Gerstein, wrote a letter to Dr. Peters inquiring how long
>the shipments would last. When would it deteriorate?
It is not clear that it would deteriorate.
So far, it had not
>been used at all. ‘On the other hand, under certain circumstances large
>quantities- that is to say, actually the entire quantity -might have to be
>used all at once’ (Andererseits werden erhebliche Mengen- d.h. eigentlich
>die ganzen verwahrten Mengen -unter Umsta”nden plo”tzlich beno”tigt.)[11]
>”The SS did not have to wait too long. By the end of May transports were
>rolling into Auschwitz, and on August 6 the Referat fu”r
>Scha”dlingsbeka”mpfung der Waffen-SS und Polizei in Auschwitz
>(“Anti-vermin Office of the SS and Police in Auschwitz’) asked for more
>Zyklon.[12] The supply was kept up to the very end. The SS did not run out
>of gas.
>1. “Testimony of Dr. Charles Sigismund Bendal (Jewish survivor) at Trial
>of Bruno Tesch, tr. pp. 28-31, NI-11953. Heinrich Schuster, former
>Austrian intelligence agent imprisoned at Auschwitz, estimated the annual
>consumption of Zyklon for fumigation and freight cars at 1700 kg.
>Affidavit by Schuster, October 13, 1947, NI-11862.” (Ibid. p.570fn.)
An inmate is capable estimating the amount used for which
purpose, see [1] above.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:37 PDT 1996
Article: 37663 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:21:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319[email protected]> <4n5[email protected]> <31976[email protected]> <4n83[email protected]> <319[email protected]> <[email protected]> <8322392[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:23:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>Alexander Baron
>>In article <[email protected]>
>> li[email protected] “william c anderson” writes:
>>> : >: Actually considering Mr.Edeiken’s claim that he lost 160
>>> : >: relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
>>> : >: tree
>>
>>This is a typical tactic, Wiesenthal claimed he lost 77 members, a while ago
>>a Jewish author in an article on “anti-Semitism” claimed to have lost 220+
>>on the mother’s side alone. I don’t dispute that many Jews lost relatives in
>>the Second World War, but the war claimed probably over 50 million lives, most of
>>them in or near Europe, and as there were many Jews in Europe this is one
>>reason. Unlike certain people – and contrary to the claims of others – I have
>>no intention of mocking any victims, but I don’t see what is so special about
>>Jewish suffering.
>>
> I don’t believe all these extraoridanary numbers given. Period.
>It fits in with the general nature to blurt out exaggerations.
> This post started out with a mathematical figuring that used only
>one percent of a lower number of total Jews and still comes up with
>way out numbers.
Another explanation has also been obliquely suggested when one
claim was supported by the family living in a small village.
Under such circumstances everyone would tend to be related by
marriage. Thus each of five survivors from a 250 person village
would claim to have lost 245 family members.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:37 PDT 1996
Article: 37665 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,van.general
Subject: Re: Jews for Faggots in Alberta
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 03:17:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37665 alt.discrimination:47070 ab.general:9333 can.general:77726 van.general:8475
Alexander Baron
>In article <4[email protected]> [email protected] ”
>> All Jews are evil and destroying society because they support homosexuals.
>I just spoke to Rabbi Goldstein tonight and he affirmed yet again the Halakhic
>position that homosexuality is an abomination. I wish I could say the same for
>our former Archbishop of Canterbury.
You need to remember that so many politically correct “jews” wish
to have it forgotten that “Jews were the only people persecuted
for what they were rather than for what they did.”
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 37666 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:00:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 6:58:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Chuck Ferree
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Grynspan claims in many posts that he “lived in one of those ‘cute’
>little German camps. My relatives died in them. I will never see the
>brother who didn’t make it.”
>To me Grynspan is saying that both he and his family were incarcerated
>by the Germans in a concentration camp and that his relatives died in
>them. If that’s not what he’s saying, then what the hell is he saying?
He is certainly not claiming to have been a fighter pilot who
liberated a camp and then was quickly retrained to pilot
multi-engine personnel transport craft just to fly the brass to
Poland.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:39 PDT 1996
Article: 37667 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:05:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:07:08 PM CDT 1996
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Alec Grynspan
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Chuck Ferree
>>
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> >Excuse me, Mike, for using some of your space to deal with Grynspan.
>>
>> Works for me.
>> >>
>> >> Because the number of statements that he made about his experiences
>> >> there make me reasonably certain that he was – oh revisionist.
>>
>> >A revisionist, huh. An American GI “Liberator” who turns out to be a
>> >revisionist or denier. Not likely.
>>
>> He’s calling me a revisionist, Chuck. 🙂
>Of course, even if Al’s entire division turned out to have been
>Liberators and Righteous amon Gentiles – so what?
>Schindler was a Nazi! I happen to personally know an indivdual whose
>father was a card-carrying bundist, Nazi, the whole 9 yards – who saved
>his Jewish girlfriend and her family, married her and raised a Jewish
>son!
>My mother was saved when the gentile girl that she thought was a close
>friend turned her in to a German soldier. Boy, did that girl get a good
>smack across the chops! The German soldier, in a loud voice told her
>that she was an “insolent Pole” – and in a quiet voice told my mother to
>run for it!
>I bring this up because, just as there are good people in the middle of
>evil, there are evil ones in the midst of good people.
>After all, there are the Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer types!
>Think about it! You know where Al got his claim to being a Righteous
>Among Gentiles – but, even if his outfit qualified, who says that he
>did?
>If there can be good people among the Nazis.
That is quite a heretical notion here. Prepare to be attacked
for it. As with Demjanjuk, all camp guards were evil, period,
hang them.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:39 PDT 1996
Article: 37668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:29:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 8:33:00 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jeff Remillard) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran
>And by the way Mr. Moran, you’re not an anit-Semite because you tell
>lies about Jews, you tell lies about Jews because you’re an
>anti-Semite.
For someone who just started reading the conference, you have
joined the class of mind readers very quickly. How did you
manage that?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:40 PDT 1996
Article: 37671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ‘Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms’
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:36:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 6:35:23 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
>[Hitler and the Final Solution – G. Fleming, University of California
>Press, 1984, p. 70]
Invoking the Gentile rule…
>————————————————————————
>With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer’s
>Chancellory
Do you know this Brack? Can you prove he ever existed? Do you
have any evidence he is telling the truth? Have you even seen
the original of this letter? How do you know it is authentic?
How did you verify it?
Another imaginary Nazi made up the holohuggers.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:41 PDT 1996
Article: 37672 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:17:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319[email protected]> <4n5[email protected]> <31976[email protected]> <4n83[email protected]> <319[email protected]> <[email protected]> <83[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:17:23 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>Alexander Baron
>>In article <[email protected]>
>> li[email protected] “william c anderson” writes:
>>> : >: Actually considering Mr.Edeiken’s claim that he lost 160
>>> : >: relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
>>> : >: tree
>>This is a typical tactic, Wiesenthal claimed he lost 77 members, a while ago
>>a Jewish author in an article on “anti-Semitism” claimed to have lost 220+
>>on the mother’s side alone. I don’t dispute that many Jews lost relatives in
>>the Second World War, but the war claimed probably over 50 million lives, most of
>>them in or near Europe, and as there were many Jews in Europe this is one
>>reason. Unlike certain people – and contrary to the claims of others – I have
>>no intention of mocking any victims, but I don’t see what is so special about
>>Jewish suffering.
>Tell you what. Let’s gass all people whose name is Alexander Baron
>because they are a pollution of the race of man. All Alexander Barons
>with no exception. In the end none of us will see what is so special
>about the suffering Alexander Barons of the World.
That is correct. Or is the suffering of the Romanov family still
mourned?
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:42 PDT 1996
Article: 37680 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 07:08:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <4l99[email protected]> <31[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4lh7eg$[email protected]> <22APR19962156[email protected]> <4ll9li$s4[email protected]> <4lm[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <31921C12.629C@gryn.org> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4nd01p$t7[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 18 2:09:41 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>On Thu, 16 May 1996 17:02:11 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>!Why are not the “testimony” of other people that is often quoted
>!in this conference treated in the same manner as Al Gentile’s?
>!You folks quote someone probably long dead as saying “I was an
>!inmate” or “I was a camp guard” and yet you never demand the same
>!evidence of these claims as you do for this person.
>!Why is that?
>Because in this instance it comes from YOU, who has been proven time and
>again to be a anti-Semite, a Holocaust Revisionist, a liar, a libeler,
>and a message forger who sends out death threats, murder for hire
>messages and is an all around bigoted slimebag.
And you have proven to be Dahlman and seven other people and all
of you hear me on your radio.
Give it up, MS Stern.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:42 PDT 1996
Article: 37682 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:41:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 8:41:34 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>[discussion of Anne Frank snipped — that means edited for brevity, Mr. Giwer]
>> Since I posted this, all of references to her (REGEX search under
>> anne) result in an error message, that the files do not exist.
>A JOOOOISH plot perhaps? Try looking under Anne Frank, idiot.
Read the instructions and learn how regex works, fatbroad.
>> Go and find out for yourself. And if I remember correctly, this
>> description is in the preface to the book. That my not be
>> correct. The original camp may be wrong but the moving while
>> recovering from typhus is correct.
>No, Mr. Giwer. You are WRONG. Anne Frank died in Belsen. Period.
It has already been agreed that she was sent to Auschwitz and
moved to Belsen by one of your fellow holohuggers. All that is
left to establish is that she was suffering from typhus when
evacuated.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:43 PDT 1996
Article: 37686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:33:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <319[email protected]> <4n5[email protected]> <31976[email protected]> <4n83[email protected]> <319[email protected]> <[email protected]> <832239248[email protected]> <319[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 7:36:41 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>: I don’t believe all these extraoridanary numbers given. Period.
>: It fits in with the general nature to blurt out exaggerations.
>: This post started out with a mathematical figuring that used only
>: one percent of a lower number of total Jews and still comes up with
>: way out numbers.
>That’s because–as I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, in a post
>you’ve refused to respond to–you based your “mathematical figuring”
>on whim, prejudice, and stunning statistical ignorance.
I have yet to see you do other than claim that. You should at
least provide your calculations, were you capable of doing them.
And in not being so capable, you are not in a position to judge
anyone else’s.
You admit
>that you have no idea how many Jews there are in the world today.
>You admit that you have no idea how many of these Jews are had
>relatives in Europe between 1939 and 1945.
The Wannsee protocol puts the number at 11 million for Europe.
Is that not a good enough place to start? Ballpark at least?
You admit that you have
>no idea how many relatives the average such Jew lost in the
>Holocaust, and you admit that you have no idea how many of these
>victims are shared by two or more contemporary Jews–and yet, based
>solely on Yale’s estimate of the number of victims on one side of
>his family, you conjure a figure out of the air for the expressed
>purpose of calling it ridiculous. The number of logical fallacies
>in this one ploy is staggering; it could profitably take its place
>in a textbook.
All of Yale’s contemporary relatives can with equal honesty claim
the same number as he.
>In other words, Mr. Moran, you’re completely saturated with fecal
>matter. Again.
You math, please.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:43 PDT 1996
Article: 37699 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 03:13:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 8:05:21 PM PDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>> > Then the answer is still the same. We were 100% successful in
>> >tracing those who we were able to trace. Conversely we were 0% successful
>in
>> >tracing those who we were unable to trace.
>>
>> Meaning only that you presume those you were unable to trace died
>> during the war.
> That is clearly not the presumption. The presumption is that we were
>100% successful in tracing those who were able to trace. Do you disagree with
>that?
If you will agree that those you failed to trace are presumed
exterminated certainly I will.
>>You presumption is your business but it is not
>> evidence in the least. You equate your failure with death. That
>> is not reasonable.
> What is not reasonable in stating that such a presumption exists.
>Since, as I have stated we were 100% successful in tracing those who we were
>able to trace there were no “failures” about which a presumption was made.
> You do have a problem with basic logic, don’t you?
I have a problem with using fallacies as a means of propaganda.
As far as what you have said, you are correct. You implication
of completeness based upon that is not acceptable unless you
agree that you have assigned all of your failures to exterminated
class.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From [email protected] Sat May 18 07:36:44 PDT 1996
Article: 37700 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and ‘Revisionist’ Insanity
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 03:16:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 17 8:07:56 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Alexander Baron
>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Mike Curtis” writes:
>> And what the evidence that Lipstadt has no intellectual honesty?
>If you don’t want to wait for my next book I suggest you flip through
>Lipstadt and count the references to the Protocols of Zion. Then see how many
>references you can find to this document in Revisionist books. She is also a
>Janus-faced bitch, as her Patterns of Prejudice article reveals.
It is always interesting to note that were it not for Jews
themselves keeping the “Protocols” alive almost no one would have
heard of them, INCLUDING everyone accused of believing them.
—–
It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
From