Giwer Matt, 1-1996 – p2

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35319 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:29:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>> Auschwitz?

>GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and
>instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was
>already answered in my origional post! To whit:

>…Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn):

> The defendants would compromise “a large number of individuals and
> officials who were in authority in the government, in the military
> establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial,
> industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards
> are provable to be common criminals.” The charges against them would be:
>
> (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting
> violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs
> of land and naval warfare…..

> (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on
> racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to
> recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed
> in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part
> of the International Law at least since 1907….*

>…In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the
>Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land
>(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty,
>concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the
>annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233)
>are:

> Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed
> into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his
> power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
> while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the
> country.

> Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied
> territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.

> Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and
> private property, as well as religious convictions and practice,
> must be respected.

> Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

> Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be
> inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals
> for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible.

>Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the
>bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing
>to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory
>_prior_ to the violations that were committed.

>> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
>> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>> justice.

>REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality.
>It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably
>has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the
>best he can do!

You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in
your response, idiot.

>posted-e-mailed to Matt “I like pig-shit!” Giwer

Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this
conference in famous. It is based upon the ancient history that
commercial providers charge by the email. Many children still
believe that is true.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35321 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:59:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m1o[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:26:51 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>!holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.

>There is more than enough proof. Denying the proof for no rational
>reason shows you to be a bigot and an anti-Semite.

>In fact, just last week NOVA did an hour and a half on THE PROOF OF THE
>GAS CHAMBERS through the architecture of the camps. But that is
>sponsored by Boston University and written and archived by intelligent
>people. Cant believe those kind of people can we Giwer. Rather we are to
>take the word of Jew Haters like YOU, MORAN, BARON, KLIEM who have the
>intellectual capicity of pea gravel…
>What a hoot.

I missed that show but “proof” would not be an operative word to
any scientific effort as science proves nothing. You may read
talk.origins to find how many times that is reiterated to the
creationists but they fail to grasp it. Proof is for
mathematics.

And if you had any concept of PBS funding you would realize that
Boston U has a subsidiary corporation doing the sponsoring.

And if you have ever really watched NOVA it may win awards every
now and then but it is hardly beyond the pop science level and
that includes when Sagan got them off of the ground.

But I would still suggest you get that tooth extracted so you do
not hear me in your dreams.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:54 PDT 1996
Article: 35333 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 23:23:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
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[email protected] (Juergen Langowski) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> But if you folks would like to agree with me on the unreliability
>>>>of evidence that has passed through Soviet hands we can reject
>>>>both all of the Demjanjuk and all of the gassing evidence
>>>>equally.

>>> Excuse me good sir but I do know of one piece of gassing evidence that
>>>I believe meets even your tough standards: the letter from Becker to Rauff
>>>about gassing vans.

>>>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/chelmno/
>>>becker-to-rauff.051642

>>> Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine
>>>what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving
>>>correspondence from Becker about gassing vans.

>>> Es ist richtig, dass ich “uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von
>>> Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker gesagt, mir einen
>>> entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden.

>>> My translation:

>>> “It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the
>>>introduction of the gassing van. I myself had told Becker to send me a
>>>corresponding report.”

>> Gaswagen is a noun. Your translation is like airplane into
>>airing plane.

>Yes, Gaswagen is a noun, and Matt Giwer is a troll. The translation is
>correct. Forget it.

Did you learn this driving around in your peopling Wagen? I
preferred a chevie for that activity myself. Much more room.

>>>URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/
>>>Walter-Rauff.1972.txt

>>> Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I
>>>believe you asked for. Now you have it.

>> I have evidence of a very poor translation. But I am certain our
>>resident expert in German will swear to your translation.

>Don’t bother to ask for my credentials. I could be tempted to email
>you the 80+ books I’ve translated.

What subjects? I’ll take you up on the offer if you can convert
them to ascii.

On the other hand, which German dictionary from the time carried
this translation?

What was the word used for the tens of thousands of vehicles
powered by CO? (Nizkor has an article that mentions hundreds of
thousands of them.)

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 35352 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected]den.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>tom moran wrote:

>>># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
>>># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
>>># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
>>># The results were next to nothing.

>>>I guess that’s the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>>>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>>>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>>>never said?

>>>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>>>in Treblinka.

>> You still haven’t looked up the two trials of Hoess on
>>indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one
>>he was acquitted of.

>> You folks won’t believe it if I tell you.

>I don’t know that anyone will, Mr. Giwer. You track record with the
>truth is, well, awful.

That is why I want a true holohugger to find and post the
information as if I do so, that truth will also be denounced as a
lie simply because it does not fit the legends.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35353 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>Gregory Taylor ([email protected]) writes:

> You are either monumentally naive if you actually believe that,
> or malicious beyond compare if you think that my family
> “deserves” what you know they will be subjected to.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) intrudes his ignorance:

> Your family, yes, unto the seventh generation isn’t it?

>Yes, God, in the Scriptures, does reserve the right to punish
>families “unto the seventh generation,” but only God has that right.

> Very Jewish.

>Not in the least! This is very Giwer, to misinterpret the Scriptures
>and blame it on the Jews!

Perhaps you would care to explain it?

> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>–Matt “I said it, but I will blame you for it!” Giwer

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>When Mr. Giwer is around, all truth needs protection.

Do you wear a superhero costume while you are defending the truth
>from me?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35354 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>: > It is considered a personal injury under Talmudic law and treated the
>: >same as any non-sexual personal injury. I have never heard of a personal
>: >injury case in the US where the money was given directly into the control
>: >of a minor child rather than the child’s parents or legal guardian. I’ll
>: >bet the Giwer-troll hasn’t either.
>:
>: Nor have I ever heard of a purely financial penalty for other
>: than accidentally inflicted harm.

>That’s because you’ve never bothered to read history. Payment for
>injury or death, usually in livestock, was quite common at one time.
>Check out, for instance, the term “wergild” in Anglo-Saxon culture.

Now three year old girls are being compared to livestock?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35367 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Where are the documents in which the UFO crewmen describe
>their actions in great detail?

>Where is the leader of the UFO crewmen, speaking to his followers,
>specifying his plans for the future?

Back in the 1950s and 60s when UFO were generally piloted by
friendly people who gave people free rides to other planets which
were also higher planes of existance. Their plans were generally
on the order of raising the human race to a more spiritual level
of existence, reveal the secrets of the universe in general and
personal and world peace in particular.

If you can find some of those books Adamski was one of the
authors if I remember correctly, you can can find all the
detailed and fabulous descriptions you could wish for. Many
times they are quite better than the holocaust stories.

One of the “details” the UFO true believers keep trying to
salvage was the author’s description of twinkling lights in
space. The believers want to that be the “fireflies” the first
astronauts reported. However upon reading the original passage
he is clearly talking about stars which he incorrectly believed
would appear to twinkle in space.

Since you appear to have university affiliations, you might try
the social psych (or whatever) section of the library and see if
they have anything on the UFO phenomenon. It was at one time
popular to suggest that the cold war and possibility of nuclear
war was the reason for the popularity of the “some one to save us
>from ourselves” aspects of the story.

Getting on to the evil side of space aliens, Betty and Barney
Hill gave a level of detail down to even having a reproduction of
a star map that they saw on board the saucer.

I generally lost interest in the phenomenon in the 70s but I
would be surprised to find that the level of detail has
decreased. Therefore you might try Communion or one of its
sequals if you can’t find the older books.

Is this a sufficient answer to your questions?

>And why do revisionazis have to be so dumb?

That is not the way your buddy, Dahlman, spells it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35368 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what is a troll?
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:10:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]>
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Alexander Baron wrote:

>What exactly is a troll? Somebody once told me what a spam is but I’m not sure
>I understand that either.

Troll is an ancient yuletide charole.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35373 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:32:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>Now, to describe the fat running down the channels at the bottom of the
>>incineration pits as “rivers of fat” would be, IMO, a bit of a stretch of
>>the imagination, more of the taking of “literary licence” than factual
>>reporting. But the fact remains that incineration pits _did_ exist and
>>that fat _did_ run down the channels in these pits and was collected to be
>>reused as fuel.

>It might also be that folks looking at what is happening to fellow
>human beings would describe what they saw in horror-like terms:
>”rivers of fat.” Seeing the cooking flesh in such numbers was amazing
>in itself, but to see the fat being used as fuel was probably enough
>to put anyone over the edge.

Over the edge with howls of laughter that anyone would be stupid
enough to believe such a story.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35374 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:45:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Repost.

> “Fears Rise Over Nazi Weapons Leaking at Bottom of the Baltic”
> Los Angeles Times, July 18, 1992

> “Tons of chemical weapons dumped by
> the Allies after World War II,
> have nudged the sea to the brink of
> catastrophe, scientists say.”

> “By tossing 300,000 tons of ready – to – fire weapons – enough
>to to kill the entire population of Europe … The 300,000 tons of
>chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea’s greenish brown
>waters contain enough active gases to kill 800 million people …”

> Interesting connotations. The Germans had all these chemical
>weapons, but did not use them, even when they were on the brink, and
>here we have the actions of the Allies threatening to accomplish what
>the Nazis refrained from doing.

> One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone
>B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely
>had? Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid
>carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there.
>’Oh look Commoissar, heres a empty can of pesticide.’

I get the impression it is like the search for a big enough room
to gas so many people so quickly, that Zykon B was tortured into
the role. Of course if I could find evidence of the publication
of Hoess’s purported memoirs before 1959 that might put a
different light upon it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35375 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L’il Tommy: Wrong Again (nu?)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:31:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:35:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> I asked months ago where the warehouses full of physical evidence
>> were stored and the best I got in response was “Are you saying
>> there are not warehouses full of evidence?” Would you like to
>> answer the question?
>>

> Sure, asshole. In the record of the proceedings. Have you read them?

No physical evidence then?

>> > If it was not done at the time, how do you explain the report of Charles
>> >Larson, M.D. a forensic pathologist.
>>
>> If you are referring to what was posted here, that was hearsay
>> unless he was working for the SS during the war.

> No it was the report of an expert. Show us your ignorance of the law
>again, asshole. Tell me that an expert cannot use hearsay to form his
>conclusions.

He was not there to witness what he talked talked about. There
was no conclusion. There was a description of what happened. It
is hearsay.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:01 PDT 1996
Article: 35376 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen’s thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:35:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:38:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes…
>>
>>Real historical research requires understanding of cause and effect and
>>responsibility is an essential part of that enquiry.
>>
>>>Historical responsibility, because of its semantic content, is even harder
>>>to establish than historical causes. But establishing historical chains
>>>of cause and effect are always speculative, and the best historians
>>>recognize this. That is why the only historians that we remember and
>>>continue to consult are those who put questions of responsibility and
>>>cause and effect far enough in the background so as to make it possible
>>>for the content of primary source material to shine through.
>>
>>You are confusing primary documentation and research with historiography.
>>They are not the same thing. The historian must attempt to interpret, or
>>else he has simply recited facts, and that is no help to anyone. One does
>>not empirically establish cause and effect–one interprets events.

> I fall somewhere between the two of you on these points. While cause
> and effect research risks over simplifying complex systemic antecedents
> to historical events, it seems to me that building models showing
> connectivity among events is useful. It seems that it ought to be
> possible to construct structured linear relationship (ie lisrel etc.)
> models to show potenial causal relationships.

> However, I agree that “responsibility” is a value laden term that does
> little towards adding to historical understanding. And, in fact,
> interjection of such values can make it difficult to objectively study
> historical issues. I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
> possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
> get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man.
> Those values (be they right or wrong) are too much of a filter keeping
> us from really understanding what happened.

Do you happen to own a baseball team?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:02 PDT 1996
Article: 35378 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:45:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:49:58 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.discrimination:46588 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19345 alt.revisionism:35378 alt.skinheads:22199 can.politics:43324

Laura Finsten wrote:

>>3) M.P.s are more concerned with protecting homosexuals, winning the
>>next election, and going on taxpayer funded junkets in warm locations than in
>>doing any work of worth for their constituents.

>By “protecting homosexuals”, do you mean passing a law to ensure that their
>basic rights under the human rights code are protected, just like those of
>all other Canadians? Do you mean instead of sitting by idly while folks
>like white supremacist Matt McKay allegedly beat the living daylights
>(literally) out of gay men? If you think that ensuring that equal rights
>for homosexuals is not something that MPs constituents care about, why
>do you suppose that the polls taken showed that such rights were favoured
>by a majority of Canadians? How many MPs do you suppose have no
>homosexual constituents?

Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal
disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder
rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would
pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some
40,000 such murders so far this year.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:03 PDT 1996
Article: 35379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !Grynspan MUST keep posting the Address of Jew Children for Giwer
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:08:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 5:08:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>> You should never have taken after Charlen.

>It should be noted that any discussion of Charlen Kyle posted here will
>be sent to her by me as a courtesy.

And?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:03 PDT 1996
Article: 35394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:38:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 3:35:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 06:31:05 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 01:09:53 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>>>> Not even your fat being rendered with acid story? Would you like
>>>>to describe this process further? Or do you need the help of our
>>>>resident chemists? Or do you need a member of the gang of six to
>>>>remain silent rather than tell you that is a recycled WW I story?
>>
>>>Actually, skeletons are prepared as anatomical specimens by boiling
>>>away the flesh and soft tissue in a highly *alkaline* bath. The
>>>process is known as “maceration.” However, if you boil fat in an
>>>alkaline solution, the fat saponifies and soap is produced. Were it
>>>not for the affidavits of Sigmund Mazur and two British airman named
>>>Witton and Neely who were imprisoned and detailed to work at the
>>>Danzig Institute, I would be quite prepared to say that all of the
>>>soap produced at Danzig was produced quite by accident. In fact I am
>>>prepared to say that soap was produced by accident at Danzig in the
>>>first instance.
>>
>> What does this have to do with an acid?

>It is a correction of a minor detail. And also an opportunity to note
>that historians have known for a very long time, and published for a
>very long time, that making soap from human fat is nothing more than a
>gruesome, almost insignificant footnote in a larger history of horror.

>If the popular press can’t ween itself off the myth, it is hardly the
>fault of historians.

So what was your point in reiterating a known propaganda instead
of simply stating it was a propaganda item other than to give it
further play?

>>>Now, the charge of soapmaking at Danzig was the only charge of
>>>soapmaking that was made at the IMT hearings. All other soap charges
>>>are, well, recycled World War I atrocity stories.
>>
>> At least one person appears honest enough to contradict a
>>holohugging idiot.

>In Dr. Keren’s defense, I know for a fact that Dr. Keren is well aware
>of the nature of the soap myth as it has been the topic of some
>offline discussion.

The doctor can speak for himself and you can not read his mind so
please stop this speaking for your fellow holohuggers. The
evdidence in favor of the “Dr.” appelation is not in comport with
what would be expected of a person with such credentials.

>>>Nevertheless, concentration camp inmates can hardly be faulted for
>>>believing these stories, since that is what they were often taunted
>>>with whenever there was a distribution of soap rations.
>>
>>>BTW, the earliest report I know of debunking the soap myth came from
>>>the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich in 1960, long before
>>>”revisionists” came on the scene.
>>
>> What does they might have believed have to do with the truth?

>In the first place, it is true that camp inmates believed they were
>issued soap made from human fat, and it gives a reason why they might
>believe it to be true and a reason why some Holocaust survivors still
>repeat it: because they believed it to be true.

That does not make it true any more than the carefully guarded
secret that showerheads were fake was a camp rumor.

>Given that prisoners were taunted about the soap they were issued when
>they were taunted in a situation of almost indescribable brutality, I
>think they might be forgiven for believing it when they were told of
>yet another cruelty. If we know better, it is only because we did not
>have to suffer that cruelty.

Upon what evidence do you claim that was a taunt? The people
claimed it? The same credibility of death by steaming?
suffocation? electrocution?

>>Even Spielberg didn’t swallow the “we are going to be gassed”
>>camp rumors. His showers produced water.

>Wouldn’t know. I haven’t seen the movie.

You should some time.

>But since you bring up gassing, I will note that there is a difference
>between believing rumors about human fat soap and believing that
>others were murdered with poison gas. The difference is that witnesses
>saw the gassing process with their own eyes.

The witnesses also testified to electrocution, suffocation and
steaming. If you believe the gassing you also believe other
three methods of mass execution. Sorry about that.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35407 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Michael is a big, fat idiot like Rush Limbaugh
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 05:20:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 12:19:42 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28001 alt.revisionism:35407 soc.culture.jewish:48463

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>DvdThomas ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Jeremy writes:

>: >Second is that I find it hard to give the Giwer the benefit of the doubt
>: >on “what any fool can see.” Remember, this is the same Giwer who said
>: >something about “Internet Indirect,” and when Gord McFee responded by
>: >saying something about not knowing “Internet Indirect,” the Giwer asked
>: >him how it was possible that Mr. McFee knew the correct name “Internet
>: >indirect.” The Giwer has a difficult time with the obvius.

>: Damn, it must be late. I’m missing something obvius here.

>Simply put, Giwer demanded to know how Mr. McFee knew a name that Mr.
>Giwer had typed in the previous post. Master of the obvious, Mr. Giwer.

I have the original message rather than the one with the changed
name that is now circulating. There is no need for it save for
the abuse of process countersuit should anyone be stupid enough
to play the law suit game.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35409 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:13:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:17:59 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19361 alt.discrimination:46591 alt.revisionism:35409 alt.skinheads:22223 can.politics:43362

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: com> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (David Reilley) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>:
>: >>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>: >>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>: >>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>: >>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
>:
>:
>: >> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most
>: >>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life.
>:
>: >McVay — now there’s a nice Jewish name!
>:
>: You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New
>: York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus
>: on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication,
>: just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything
>: while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back
>: home who can’t think.

>Ha! Ha! Ha! You, apparently, read things into the news that no one else
>does. Apparently, you’re the only one who can’t think.

>Nice dodge, by the way. YOu didn’t say Mr. McVay gives the “amen Corner”
>a bad name; you said he gives “Jews” a bad name. Loser! Another error
>for the Giwer book………

Does not even the Talmud comment upon the people with whom one
associates?

>: As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones
>: discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was
>: thinking about the person said “we were talking in temple” and
>: his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name.

>Yes, but there are names that give strong hints they aren’t “Jewish.”
>McVay sounds awfully Irish to me, and I’m very familiar with the Jewish
>population of Ireland — not vry big, so the odds of McVay being one ar
>pretty damned small.

>Besides, why argue this, if you )according to the above) meant the “amen
>corner,” not that McVay was Jewish?

>Get it straight, Mr. Happy.
>:

>: But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their
>: pro-gassing posts with “I am not Jewish but …” and that is the
>: amen corner.

>Well, then by your logic that would make you Part of the “Sig Heil”
>corner. Since we agree that you are, let ,e point out that you give the
>”Sig Heil” corner no worse name than they already have………

I have declined to respond to the “are you a nazi” questions
precisely because that is how a denial would have been used by
you folks.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!west.news.istar.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:48:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:52:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]tcom.com) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>:
>: ># No there is not. When an engine is running rich the exhaust
>: ># comes out black. If you have ever seen a car old enough not to
>: ># be EPA approved, when the pedal is put down, the exhaust is
>: ># black. That is partially burned hydrocarbons. On a diesel it is
>: ># worse as they are added to the black particulate carbon that is
>: ># emitted.
>:
>: >: > fumes from a diesel engine, British Journal Of Industrial
>: > Medicine, 1957, Vol. 14, p. 47-55>
>:
>: > “Under these conditions the exhaust was acrid (causing lachrymation
>: >in under 10 seconds). At times it was almost clear, but sometimes
>: >white fumes were produced”.
>: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>:
>: What are the “THESE” conditions?
>:
>: >[…]
>:
>: > “Under these conditions the engine produced a dense white smoke,
>: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: >apparently consisting mainly of unburnt oil; very little carbon
>: >was present. The fumes were very acrid, causing intense pain to
>: >the eye in 4 to 7 seconds. The visibility in the chamber was only
>: >a few inches, and the lethal quality of the fumes was greater
>: >than than under conditions A,B, and C”.
>:
>: >
>:
>: How long did it take you to find a reference that indicated there
>: are some conditions under which a diesel engine can produce other
>: than blue or black exhaust? What chamber is this talking about?

>HOw long did it take you to realize that you were wrong when you said that
>diesel engines never give off white exhaust? How long will it take until
>you admit you were wrong, given that everyone else can see it?

It did take a minute after the extremely rich mixture was posted
to realize this is not a discussion of exhaust but of vaporized
oil.

And as you should have read by now it raises huge problems with
flammability of the buildings at all times and their being highly
explosive while in use. While in use they could be described as
fuel-air bombs.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 01:52:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 8:49:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post.

>> I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>it a gas chamber?

>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color. It
is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is
unclear what blue would have formed from.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:04:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 9:02:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer wrote:

>: ># We know from eyewitness testimony
>: >#
>: ># 1) Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>: ># minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.

>: >No, this is false. Again, you prove that you are, plain and simple,
>: >either a drunkard, senile, or simply retarded. The first gassing
>: >in Auschwitz took place at the end of 1941. The Treblinka gas chambers
>: >began operating after mid-1942.

>: Here is part of the message posted by good, old OBC with the
>: Nizkor reference. Or are you merely objecting to the date?

>Of course he’s objecting to the date; he’s objecting to the ORDER you
>placed it in — that Treblinka was before Auschwitz, your false
>assertion. He pointed out that Auschwitz was first, as it began in 1941,
>and Treblinka began “after mid-1942.”

It really gets hard to keep the truthes straight here. Just
yesterday I read a long post on how Hoess had selected one gas
over the other because of Treblinka’s experience with engine
exhaust, that it required a bullet every now and then. What is
the truth of the day in this regard?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Tales of the hyphenated god and its name
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:04:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m8r <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28004 alt.revisionism:35420 soc.culture.jewish:48474

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>: >
>: >: >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>:
>: >: >>[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>:
>: >: >>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>:
>: >: >>>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>:
>: >: >>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>: >: >>>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
>:
>: >: >>>>> You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.
>:
>: >: >>>>>All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer’s skin!
>: >: >>>>>Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he resorts to these
>: >: >>>>>baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention from his own
>: >: >>>>>intellectual dishonesty.
>:
>: >: >>>> Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority?
>:
>: >: >>>No, hyphenating God’s name is a form of reminding one’s self not to
>: >: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: >: >>>use His name in vain. Personally, I write out the whole word God. I
>: >: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: >: >>>think God has more to worry about than whether or not I’m saying
>: >: >>>”God.”
>:
>: >ALERT! ALERT! ALERT: The Giwer, in a blatant demonstration of his lack
>: >of reading comprehension, accuses Mr. Katz of using a capitalized “god”
>: >as the reference name, which isn’t the proper name, and then blasts Mr.
>: >Katz for this. Of course, if the Giwer had read this following
>: >paragraph, he’d realize that he’s just made an idiot of himself for the
>: >5,632nd time.
>:
>: The only Hebrew injunction I am aware of is against speaking the
>: name of god. To violate that injunction, it is against the
>: speaking of the name of Yahweh God. The name is not God god.
>:
>: Consult your favorite version of Genesis. Your mileage may vary.
>:

>GIWER KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT JUDAISM ALERT: Wrong again, oh fat one. There
>is an injunciton against “detroying” the name of G-d. This means that one
>should not burn or otherwise destroy the name of G-d. Since some people
>considered G-d to be the name in English, a custom arose of “hyphenating”
>the name in written form. Anything else you need to know?

The named god in Geneis is Yahweh. Its name is not God. But you
would continue hyphenating your god based upon the incorrect
beliefs of others. That is very strange. Perhaps next you will
call him George?

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35423 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine ([email protected]) wrote:

>: I would therefore urge Giwer to
>: support his origional statement showing that the amount of HCN produced
>: by the Krema furnaces used at Auschwitz would produce more HCN than was
>: present in the gas chambers from the homicidal use of Zyklon B.

>What’s more amusing about Myshkin’s HCN emissions claim is that not only
>is it irrelevant, but it contradicts one of the deniers’ favorite arguments.
>They tend to say, as you will recall, that the vents for the gas chambers
>were so close to the SS barracks that they would have poisoned all of the
>SS officers. Now Myshkin argues that the crematory smokestacks would
>have produced more HCN than the gas chambers even if the gas chambers
>were used for homicidal gassings! And yet there are, to my knowledge,
>no denier claims of massive HCN poisoning due to crematory smokestack
>emissions.

When I first posted I said “probably” greater as I did not think
much of the “close to the barracks” argument.

Coke was used to fuel the Kremas.

One of the industial sources is from the flue gases of coke
fires.

Which of the above do you have a problem with?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:10 PDT 1996
Article: 35424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >: I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: >: >: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: >: >: it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: >: >: comedy of the absurd?
>: >:
>: >: >Because you apparently “did it” for twenty years without having the
>: >: >slightest idea of how “it” is done? I dunno, just a guess…
>: >:
>: >: How would a college kid like you know?
>:
>: >The same way a guy with a Bachelor’s only, and 20 years’ separation from
>: >academia, would know about what academics are, and what scholarship is?
>:
>: >The same way a guy with not a whit of training OR experience in law would
>: >insist on legal points which contradict every all known legal scholarship
>: >and judgments?
>:
>: In case you missed it, I was referring to 30 years of real life
>: experience.

>I’m sorry, Mr. Giwer, I didn’t realize you had 30 years of real life
>experience in the law. Or in Chemistry. Or in archaeology. Or in
>anthropology. Or in history. Gee, what’s your “life experience” in these
>again?

>Or do just claim that by the mere miracle of being alive, you became an
>expert in these things?

When you age enough to have it you will also have it. I doubt I
will be alive to discuss what you have learned at that time.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35425 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:10:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 7:10:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Sorry about your stupidity, no one who has EVER seen a diesel
># powered bus is going to believe your fabrications.

>Sigh. If you could only read English, we could make some progress here.

>I didn’t write the Pattle et. al. paper about the experiments with the
>diesel fumes. They did.

>The largest amount of white smoke was present under condition D,
>that is, the engine running without load, and with a fuel-air ratio
>intentionally set to higher than the usual ratio. This resulted
>in fumes which were more lethal than under other running conditions,
>and therefore it is certainly possible that the SS, for some time,
>ran the engines connected to the gas chambers under conditions
>similar to D.

>Obviously, a bus isn’t run under such conditions; there is a load,
>and the fuel-air ratio is correct.

>The bottom line is that diesels can produce white smoke. This
>was proved in the Pattle et. al. experiments.

You appear to be describing a condition in which the mixture was
so rich that the oil was pumped through completely unburned and
appeared out the exhaust as a hot aerosol. In that case you
would have these buildings saturated with oil quite quickly,
making them major fire hazards. One spark from those trains and
the entire complex would be up in flames.

It is unclear how the place could have survived for so long under
these hazardous conditions.

And in this case you would not be talking about death by
poisoning but by suffocation brought about by oil coated lungs.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35427 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:53:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 9:51:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: /pub/bibliographies/biblio.INDEX
>Last-modified: 1995/09/10

>I have assembled Holocaust bibliographic reference files, which are
>available to anyone requesting them. They contain well over 2500
>entries, and will prove invaluable for anyone interested in learning
>more about the collective events referred to as the Holocaust.

What will be truly valuable is if you ever get a real search
engine on the site instead of that “guess the filename” thing you
have now.

If there is any interest in research it will be by topic rather
than by file name. That is why books have indexes as you know.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:12 PDT 1996
Article: 35431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:29:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:30:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Mon, 06 May 1996 09:58:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!> Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your
>!> lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then
>!> squawk like the little piggies you are about it.
>!
>!You always do have to try to pull down those who are more intelligent
>!than you, don’t you?

>So whats yer IQ again Alec. I forget, wasnt it off the scale or
>something? Yeah, yer a real friggin genious pal… πŸ™‚

>How did SOAPBOX ROCK end Alec? You and your gang of creeps banned seven
>people,

They were all you.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:04:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 536
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 12:01:56 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: The standard bomb weight dropped by USAAF bombers in the
>> >European theater was 500 lbs.
>>
>> The most common weight would not be the design maximum for any
>> engineer.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer’s “objection” is specious and irrelevent. The fact
>remains that 500 lbs. was standard weight of the bombs dropped.

Your ignorance of engineering notwithstanding there was no such
thing as a standard. There was most certainly a most common size
which could be calculated in at least two ways, either as
greatest number or greatest weight of explosive.

However, neither would mititgate against designing for 1000
pounder which were not uncommon. Some militarian historian may
better fill in the numbers.

It is your task to explain why a shelter would be designed for a
lower weight than the weight that was the design maximum of
allied bombers.

>[snip]

>> And since SCUDs in Iraq were a recent development it is not
>> reasonable to expect that ALL air raid shelters would be
>> immeditately rebuilt.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer’s “objection” is specious and irrelevent. Israel has
>been under threat from both aircraft and battlefield missles from Syria
>for decades.

As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
countries in the middle east. Russia and the US may have played
off their clients against each other but they were not stupid
about it. The closest you will find are fighters that can be
configured for a bombing role. The last I heard only Israel had
them as AIPAC objects to their being sold to the Saudis.

>>The Al-Hussein coming at 550 lbs does not meet the 1000 lb expectation
>>for Europe.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer, being the dullard he his, failed to clue into the
>realization that todays munitions fillers, such as used in bombs, are
>several times as powerful as those used in WWII. Hence, a modern-day
>warhead that weighed 550 lbs could easily be more powerful (and
>destructive) than a circa WWII 1,000 lb. bomb.

As you should know did you not have your head up your ass the
“weights” in the equivalent explosive value of a standard
explosive. It has no relation to the actual weight weight of
either the bomb or the explosive even in WW II. A 1000 pounder
is still a thousand pounder.

And a 550 pounder is still a 550 pounder.

You are truly amazing. You know that you know nothing about this
subject and yet you keep on coming. You are more reminiscent of
a barroom brawler than a debater.

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer here claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_ use
>> >a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a “bomb shelter,” yet
>> >they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans.
>>
>> Try reading for comprehension this time.

>REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer claims that the L.Kellers had a _secondary_
>use a morgue (implying that the _primary_ use was as a “bomb shelter,” yet
>they were origionally designated as morgues in the construction plans.

No many how many times you make your false statements they will
not become true. I have said the design feature are those of a
bomb shelter so if the morgue had any secondary purpose it was as
a bomb shelter. You are the one with a morgue with unnecessary
and more expensive features.

>[snip]

>> >One could, according to the Nazi designations, reasonably assume that this
>> >meant that the Nazis origionally intenended them to be morgues. All of
>> >which makes perfect sense as they were part of the Kremas who _purpose_
>> >was to incinerate corpses, which would be temporarily held in the morgues.
>> >Furthermore, the location of the Kremas away from the camp population
>> >(seperated by electrified fences, guards, etc.) made quick and easy access
>> >to the L.Kellers impossible for the prisoners (or SS staff) in the camp.
>> >This would mean that only the Krema “staff” would have timely access to
>> >the L.Kellers. Why then would the Kremas, with a “staff” of a few dozen
>> >people require _two_ “bomb shelters” that could hold several thousand
>> >people? Not to mention that Kremas IV and V had no such underground
>> >L.Kellers for their “staff” to use as “bomb shelters?”
>>
>> If you would read carefully you could save much of your time.

>EVASION ALERT: Giwer, unable to coherently address the issues, ducks,
>dodges, and weaves in a desperate, but unsuccessful, attempt to not appear
>as a complete idiot.

You are making claims that I have said something that I did not.
I can not evade what I did not say.

>> >> Certainly there is nothing in the construction that would be
>> >> necessary for either a morgue or a gas chamber. One does not
>> >> worry about the dead being able to breath or being hit by bombs.
>> >> Nor does one need anything in this construction method for
>> >> gassing.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, to argue this must simply ignore that the
>> >L.Keller 1, were modified during their construction to serve as gas
>> >chambers. Because of this, in addition to adding the roof vents,
>> >introduction columns, gas-tight doors (with glass peep-holes), and
>> >_deaeration_ system, the corpse chutes (sites 30 and 30a), which led from
>> >the surface to the L.Keller 1, which were already poured, had to be be
>> >walled off, and their tops demolished. (_Anatomy_,p.224.)
>>
>> What you fail to note is that there is no documentation that
>> states they are being modified into gas chambers.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer being the dishonest scum he is, not will
>not acknowledge the many memos, letters, and receipts that show that
>indeed the L.Keller 1s were converted into gas chambers prior to Kremas II
>and III becoming operational.

Excuse me but if there is such evidence PBS’s Frontline failed to
report it as you have failed to report it. Of course, it is only
a TV program so Shtetl was an equally incompetant effort. But
then since you know of so much evidence, post it. And send
copies to the production company also as they did clearly state
that there was no such evidence.

>> The modification to that purpose is what people are reading into what
>> they find and do not want to find anything contrary to that.
>> They are searching very hard to find sinister reasons behind
>> design features while ignoring quite mundane reasons.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, in his irrational defense of his bigotry, overlooks
>the simple fact that it is rather _easy_ to find sinister reasons behind
>the “design features” of the L.Kellers, as the evidence of them being gas
>chambers is overwhelming and accepted by historians. In contrast, it is
>Giwer, and other deniers, who (unsuccessfully) grasp at all straws, such
>as claiming the L.Kellers were bomb shelters and not gas chambers, that
>shows the intellectual, as well as moral, bankruptcy of their position in
>denying this.

It is very rare that real historians can come to some sort of
unanimous agreement from information that has only been available
for a few short years (Russian remember?) and is barely in
publication. It is hard to explain the interest in this material
if it merely repeats what has always been known.

You are clearly misrepresenting the material. The only question
is whether or not you are doing it knowingly.

>> >> But what we do have is a more expensive construction than
>> >> necessary and was quite clumsy for either either a morgue or
>> >> gassing but ideal for a bomb shelter.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Except for the minor detail that due to the fact that the
>> >roofs of the large L.Kellers (with lots of exposed surface area for the
>> >blast/overpressure to be applied to) were _above_ ground, and quite
>> >vulnerable to near or direct hits from even a 500 lb. bomb….
>>
>> That is why they are reinforced concrete rather than wood.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, overlooks that conrete was (and is) a common
>construction material for large structures.

However the Krema itself is in the same place and does not have
such a roof and is on the same order of size as is the undressing
room. Yet they do not have this more expensive construction
method.

However, as Giwer has now
>_claimed_ that the roof of the L.Kellers were contructed of re-inforced
>concrete _because_ they were bomb shelters, I ask that Giwer produce his
>evidence supporting his claim. As he is arguing an alternative to the Null
>argument that accepts that the L.Keller 1s were gas chambers and NOT bomb
>shelters, failure to support his claims will be grounds to dismiss Giwer’s
>claims as specious drivel.

The evidence is in the design features of course. It is not a
necessary design feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber.
After all, everyone is guessing here. The “researchers” have
noted there are no statements or labeling on any of the documents
discovered to indicate any other purpose than a morgue — your
misrepresentations to the contrary.

>> The U-boat pens were covered with rebar concrete and were pounded
>> with (sorry) 1000 lb bombs but they continued operating until
>> they were physically captured. I am not able to compare
>> thickness at this time.

>INTELLECTUAL DISHONSETY ALERT: Giwer, being dishonest by nature it seems,
>attempts to compare U-Boat pens, whose roofs were built with re-inforced
>concrete tens of feet thick, for the express purpose of withstanding
>aerial bombardment, to a morgue cum gas chamber with a roof a few tens of
>centimeters thick, and which was easily demolished by a few crates of
>dynamite!

I found a picture of what was supposed to the be remains of the
roof on Nizkor. I would suggest you go there, use their powerful
search engine, and take a look at it also. And while you are
there find the documentation for the amount of dynamite used.

After that, learn the difference between setting of an explosion
inside and outside of a building.

>> And on the drawings I have seen the walls appear to have been
>> been bermed with earth which would 1) shield the walls 2) deflect
>> the overpressure thus offering proction from a near miss.
>>
>> There is nothing in this construction necessary to either a
>> morgue or a gas chamber.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

Is there any other kind of gas chamber?

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

We will see your addressing the issues when you respond to my
quesitons on these matters in another message.

>> >> The kicker in all of this is the roof being rebar construction.
>> >> All the temperature benefits of underground construction can be
>> >> obtained with a simple wooden roof just like in cellars today
>> >> although the “roof” is the ground floor.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, again chooses to ignore that the use of
>> >reinforced concrete was (and is) a standard construction technique for
>> >such large structures. The load factor for such roofs, especially
>> >considering that they were _flat_, not to mention that unreinforced
>> >concrete is structurally weak, makes, reinforcement neccesary. Especially
>> >considering the snow loads that would occur during winter on such a large
>> >exposed, and _flat_, roofs….
>>
>> Try it again. A PEAKED wooden roor would have been quite
>> satisfactory for a morgue or a gas chamber. There is no
>> necessary requirement for a flat roof or a concrete roof for
>> either application.

>REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer, of course, again chooses to ignore that the
>use of reinforced concrete was (and is) a standard construction technique for
>such large structures. The load factor for such roofs, especially
>considering that they were _flat_, not to mention that unreinforced
>concrete is structurally weak, makes, reinforcement neccesary. Especially
>considering the snow loads that would occur during winter on such a large
>exposed, and _flat_, roofs….

I am obviously more aware of such construction than you are. It
is up to you to answer why a more expensive construction method
would have chosen when it was unnecessary. There was no
requirement for it to be flat in the first place. The Krema roof
is not flat.

But you will continue to refuse to address why such a more
expensive roof is a necessary design feature of either a morgue
or a gas chamber.

>> >> >And why do you think that “I can think of a better way to do it”
>> >> >disproves anything?
>>
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Indeed. Of course, when Giwer thinks of a “better” way to
>> >do it it “proves” he was right! Typical Giwer double-standard.
>>
>> This is not a better way. It is simply looking at the design
>> features without the preconception of a gas chamber and then
>> twisting what would be found in a bomb shelter into some sinister
>> use in gassing.

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, when Giwer thinks of a “better” way to
>do it it “proves” he was right! Typical Giwer double-standard.

This is not better. It is cheaper. It is the use of a more
expensive method on one of three buildings.

Now if you want to suggest that Topf was merely padding the
contract you might have something to pursue. These days it would
an example of those damned defense contractors ripping off the
taxpayers.

>> >> It is not a matter of thnking of a better way. It is a
>> >> familiarity with design and construction.
>>
>> >REALITY CHECK: A familiarity that Giwer obviously lacks. Or does Giwer,
>> >now also claim to be an “expert” in architectural design as well?
>>
>> I have been over bomb shelter construction and blast effects in
>> my time.

>REALITY CHECK: References, please. I’d say that it’s not that I didn’t
>believe you, but the fact is I don’t believe you. I trust you and your
>word, Giwer, about as far as I could hurl an elephant.

But since you know that you do not have any such knowledge or
experience, you have no way to judge what I am saying. Your
basic ignorance of bomb rating is enough to demonstrate that. At
this point I would be amazed of you could give a working
descripion of why overpressure causes damage or that you could
understand the one I would give. But were I to give it you would
run off with your scientifically illiterate nonsense would
continue.

But here is a simple test, what besides overpressure does this
type of construction protect against? That is about as simple I
can make it for you to start your learning process. And the hint
was that if you did know anything about explosive damage you
would have made a point of my mentioning only one of the damage
mechanisms.

>> But then I will have to ask you, are the people who are
>> going over these drawings and finding sinister meanings in these
>> features expert in the construction of large scale gas chambers?
>> I am unaware of any repository of such knowledge.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer ignores the simple fact that the Nazis
>themselves confirmed that they were indeed gas chambers. It doesn’t take
>an expert to understand that….

Again you need to get your information to the production company
at PBS and all the “researchers” in the program who never heard
of your information either.

>> In any event it is good that you brought it up before I did and
>> we have an agreement the people making these sinister discoveries
>> are not expert in large scale gas chambers.

>GIWER LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ALERT: Of course, Giwer realizes that no
>such “agreement” exists. Yet, in his desperation, me must make such lies
>as he hasn’t an intellectual leg to stand-on.

Then you insist they are expert in the construction of large
scale gas chambers? Where were they educated in this arcane
field?

>”Yes, it’s true, this man has no dick.” -Ghostbusters

College kid?

>> >> Yet what we see now is people going over these drawings and the
>> >> building with the preconceived notion that it was a gas chamber
>> >> and twisting every design feature into something useful for
>> >> gassing. They are clearly finding what they want to find.
>>
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, in looking at the contruction plans (IF he ever
>> >looked at the plan!) casts a blind eye to the fact that the Nazis
>> >themselves, origionally, had the notion that the L.Kellers were to be
>> >morgues! And of course, when Giwer decides to twist every design feature
>> >(real or imagined) into something that supports his claim that the
>> >L.Kellers were bomb shelters, he doesn’t consider that “clearly finding”
>> >what HE wants to find, applies to himself! Yet more Giwer
>> >double-standards.
>>
>> I simply point out that there is no necessary of a morgue or gas
>> chamber but many of the design features of a bomb shelter.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

A steel door in one place and wood in another? Not very
consistent of them.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

And of course you will answer all of the questions I have posed
in the other message first. You even shot down one of your own
points in this one.

>> In fact it was not until the PBS Frontline show this week on
>> these morgues that I realized from the people’s own descriptions
>> of their work that they were going over the available drawings
>> and discovering these things.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

You have done nothing but deliberately misrepresent what is
happening with regard to this new information.

>> They were going over information that “carefully avoided” any
>> mention of the true purpose and they were trying to find a
>> gassing purpose for the features on the drawings.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

>> Thus all of these gassing features are, by their own words, what
>> they have found a gassing purpose for without knowing what the
>> feature might in fact be for.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

>> Another factor to consider is that these were ad hoc
>> modifications by people who also would have had not data base for
>> large scale gassing facitlities. So there is no way to say
>> anything more certain than, “This could have been used to
>> facilitate gassing,” as there are no standard features for large
>> scale gas chambers.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

>> On the other hand I can point to well established features of
>> bomb shelters. Consider it a side benefit of having grown up in
>> the 50s when building them was a popular activity.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, yet again, turns his blind eye to the fact that the
>L.Keller 1s had corpse chutes (blocked off), elevators leading to the
>furnace hall, and HCN gas detectors in them. All necessary “construction,”
>to the Nazis, evidently, for a homicidal gass chamber.

>Does Giwer have the balls to address these issues? No.

You repetition is very silly when you have addressed nothing I
have asked you as yet.

>> >> It is probably like that tank engine found outside a building
>> >> which was declared to be for gassing people inside the building.
>> >> It is the quest for a sinister purpose for everything found.
>>
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, of course, as he prides himself in his ignorance,
>> >overlooks the minor detail that the tank engine used for gassing at
>> >Treblinka was loacted INSIDE a building and connected by a system of pipes
>> >to the gas chambers there!
>>
>> I asked for a picture of that one, with all of the engine
>> mounting, fuel lines and tank, starter and batteries and
>> associated electrical equipment for some time ago and no one
>> offered such a picture. I even mentioned the necessary building
>> and still there was no response.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, of course, must realize that Treblinka was erased by
>the Nazis? And that there may be no surviving photos of what he asks for?
>Only a dishonest fool, such as Giwer, would then suggest that a lack of a
>photo, especially when multiple accounts confirm that the engines were
>housed in a building, mean that they weren’t.

What does erased mean in terms of physical evidence? How does
one “erase” an entire camp? Do you mean dismantled and spread
around the countryside? Where could everything have gone? How
many months did they have to evacuate ahead of the Russians?

>> Would you care to point to either a picture or a description of
>> all of that equipment mounted in an operational manner?

>REALITY CHECK. Perhaps if Giwer were to READ a book or two about the
>subject he wouldn’t have to ask such silly questions! Books like _The
>Destruction of the European Jews_ and the _Death Dealer: the memoirs of
>the SS Kommandantat Auschwitz_, for starts. He might also try some books
>specifically about Treblinka.

That was posted here. It was not as necessary to support the
position.

>> >> >: ># Looking at it another way, certainly if the Nazis had been making
>> >> >: ># gigantic mass murder gassing chambers, the likes of which the world
>> >> >: ># has never seen, there would be more evidence as to their actions
>> >> >: ># than an order for an air-tight door or two, don’t you think?
>> >> >:
>> >> >: >But there is much more evidence.
>> >>
>> >> >: Which you refuse to produce.
>> >>
>> >> >DENIER TECHNIQUE #2: Insist, in the face of mountains that evidence,
>> >> >that NONE EXISTS BECAUSE IT ISN”T RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AT THAT SECOND.
>> >> >Never admit that any evidence has been produced. Stick head in sand.
>> >>
>> >> I have been over every bit of evidence that has been presented,
>> >> primarily the Wannsee conference, which does not contain such
>> >> evidence even though it was offered in German as such evidence.
>> >> The holohugger technique is to pretend such things have never
>> >> been discussed and found wanting.
>>
>> >MAJOR PAUPACY ALERT: A typical denier rationalization to obscure the
>> >simple fact that, in truth, Giwer has _rejected_ every bit of sustainable
>> >evidence that does not conform to his prejudices concerning the Holocaust.
>>
>> Eyewitness testimony is not evidence.

>GIWER LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH ALERT: Of course eyewitness testimony is
>considered evidence. Giwer, after proven wrong about this, continues to
>lie, thus compoubding the problem, rather than own up to his stupidity.
>This, of course is the typical behavior of Giwer, the dickless wonder.

People’s exhibit 23, the testimony of …

Ever heard of such a line? Testimony is called testimony because
it is not evidence. Evidence is that physical stuff that is
numbered and kept in the property room.

I find it amazing that all of the self proclaimed and wannabe
attornies here have failed to note the difference.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:14 PDT 1996
Article: 35435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:47:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:46:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> And I am certainly Miss Laura can speak for herself without your
>>help. Are you trying to pick up the women here?

> Well, I can see why Giwer has such a reputation – he accuses someone
>of being a “college kid” (implying immaturity and lack of experience), then
>sneers at someone in a manner of an insecure teenager.

I was merely highlighting again the holohugger/amen corner
tendency to jump in and speaking for those with their same
mindset. I happened to read two messages in a row where you were
speaking for women.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:15 PDT 1996
Article: 35443 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:35:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 166
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: .ix.netcom.com>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>:
>: >: >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>:
>: >: >[snipped nonsense]
>:
>: >: >>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>:
>: >: >>>Oh, hell, Mr. Giwer, accept yourself for what you are. At least be
>: >: >>>that honest! The word bigot applies to you via what you post. I
>: >: >>>understand that most of those who troll-post aren’t fully aware of
>: >: >>>what they post. Since this is probably your problem, I suggest you be
>: >: >>>more aware of the posts your make and the impression they provide to
>: >: >>>us who read them.
>:
>: >: >> In other words, no answer.
>:
>: >: >See above.
>:
>: >: >> Try it this way. There is no evidence the Spanish blew up the
>: >: >>Maine. Show me the bigotry in that statement, fool.
>:
>: >: >What has the Maine to do with the Holocaust or the facts in my
>: >: >explanation above? Hmmmm?
>:
>: >: There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>: >: holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.
>:
>: >That’s an interesting analogy — cxonsidering that you aren;t arguing the
>: >Maine; you also accept that Stalin slaughted millions; you accept a lot
>: >of things — you just don’t accept that he Nazis gassed the Jews.
>:
>: How would you know what I accept about Stalin? As for the
>: gassing issue, I never bothered questioning the subject until I
>: found that Zyklon B was HCN and kitty litter. That is when my
>: concept of what happened started unraveling. So you can see why
>: I have the most problems with the gassing.

>So all of your trollign consists entirely of your demonstrated lack of
>knowledge of chemsitry? that’s almost disappointing, given the ignorance
>you’ve shown in every other subject.

I would have thought you would at least have said toxicology.

But you miss the point, it made sense as long it was the nerve
gas I was presuming it to be. It might have been OK if it had
been gas in the form of a gas.

But remember you are the one who relied upon the authority of a
chemist to arrive at the opinion of my ignorance of chemisty and
now he has agreed that coke fires produce HCN and that bones
burn. Those are two out of three of the things he deceived you
on and he is still stringing the exothermic combustion of the
human body.

>: >Take that in conjunction with your constant posting s about Israel —
>: >which have nothing to do with the Holocaust.
>:
>: As I have noted, I did not introduce Israel to the discussion.
>: The first I saw about Israel was the post the libeled Pat
>: Buchanan as being anti-semitic based upon some out of context
>: quotes about Israel. None of the gang of six objected to that
>: post so it would appear reasonable that Israel is a subject of
>: discussion on this conference.

>If relevant, yes. But once again you haven;t explained how the bombing of
>Qana determines the truth or falsity of the holocaust. The Buchanan
>discussion was concerning Pat’s motives for denying the existence of gas
>chambers.

His denial was a statement on one of four or five points

Nor has anyone explained what libeling Buchanan on all of those
points has to do with it. You first.

>: >Then throw in your statements about Jews (which are enough to establish
>: >your anti-Jwe sentiments by themslves) — “tribesmen,” “goat-herding
>: >fantasies” et al, and you have the evidence of your anti-Semitism right
>: >there.
>:
>: As covered in another and more extensive post, I was silent on
>: the subject of Jews out of context to the holocaust until some
>: members of the gang of six and the amen corner started calling me
>: antisemitic and a neo-nazi. And those were alleged solely upon
>: my very on topic statements about gassing.
>:
>: Do you expect me to remain silent?

>No, I expect you do what you just did — lie because you’re backed into a
>corner.

You are the one who was deceived into believing I lie. But in
any event you do agree that I did not start the name calling.

>: >It’s interesting that you insult all Jews with epithets while
>: >simultaneously denying your anti-Semitism. One conclude either that
>: >you’re lying in one or the other, or that you’re an incompetent old
>: >senile fool who can’t remember what he’s said from one day to the next.
>: >At this point, I lean towards the former.
>:
>: But you do have to put things in the order they occurred. The
>: charge of anti-semitism against me arose as above prior to any
>: negative statements about Jews. It is experiences like that
>: which could certainly make one anti-semitic. You folks appear to
>: be attempting to generate self-fulfilling prophecies, attempting
>: to make enemies.

>HAr har. Once again, the Giwer makes vague lying representations about
>what somebody else said on the group. Got any evidence of this? NO,
>because it’s not true.

Of course. Mere repetition makes it true.

>: And I have noticed this tendency to make enemies extends to many
>: areas. In fact the first time I was called anti-semitic was in a
>: public discussion and I rather casually noted that Israel lacked
>: any strategic importance to the US. I received several responses
>: which I proceeded to refute. After several exchanges the
>: response was on the order of, ‘you refuse to admit it so you must
>: be anti-semitic.’ That is something I appear to share with
>: Buchanan.

>Proof, please. You;ve demonstrated so much anti-Semitism, I find it hard
>to believe that anyone would ever even find a time when you weren’t.

But of course your memory is so poor that you do not remember
which side started the name calling.

>: It is clearly not an honest person who equates either the
>: strategic importance or lack thereof of Israel with
>: anti-semitism. Nor is refusing things as evidence of gassing
>: when to my mind they are not evidence of gassing for clearly
>: stated reasons anti-semitic. Yet that was the charge.
>:

>Nope. Strategic importance, Israel’s policies — these by themselves have
>nothing to do with anti-Semitism. COmments about Jewish control, Calling
>all Jews names liek “tribesmen” and “primitive”, — these are
>anti-Semitic.

I did not start the name calling.

>: Why have I been so charged for such tangient matters?

>Awwww…..poor Matt. The mean ol’ Jews are picking on him.

That is not an answer to the quesiton

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:16 PDT 1996
Article: 35445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson’s ‘Historical Research’
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:50:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: ron.demon.co.uk> <[email protected]>
>: <[email protected]> Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>: >I suppose if I was an old man near death and had been unjustly accused
>: >of participation in mass murder, I might want to clear the air before
>: >I died. Suchomel did not deny his participation in mass murder, but
>: >instead confirmed it.

>: I find the faith in “deathbed” confessions touching but with no
>: particular basis in fact even if the person can be demonstrated
>: to have had an anquished conscience about the matter.

>Fascinating. Why is it, do you suppose, that the “deathbed confession”
>is one of the recognized exceptions to the Hearsay rule in the FRE and in
>most states’ laws?

As I said, touching. Since when am I supposed ot explain legal
traditions when there is an attorney here to answer all of your
questions? Perhaps he will be able to state the tests such
confessions were subjected to before whatever you are suggesting
was permitted?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:17 PDT 1996
Article: 35446 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: USS LIBERTY
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35446 alt.conspiracy:47923

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: [email protected]>
>: >Distribution:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Silly Giwer. Your discussion is for kids. Israel’s location has long
>: >been a strategic gateway for access to other parts of the region.

>: You are the one who knows what it is. Please demonstrate it. Or
>: are you talking about all of those land troop movements through
>: Israel in the Gulf War?

>: In other words, you have not the slightest idea of military
>: strategy. All you do is parrot assertions that have heard many
>: times without understanding what was being said.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Good choice, Mr. Giwer, the Persian Gulf War, especially since it’s not
>contiguous to Iraq and ISrael didn’t participate.

>Tell you what; study the history of war in the Middle East, then come
>back and talk to me. Israel’s historic role as gateway for armies
>stomping around the Middle East has existed since before the Egyptians and
>Babylonians were snarling at each other.

As I said, POST Wright Brothers. Welcome to the 20th century.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:17 PDT 1996
Article: 35447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:50:57 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>: >: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>: >: >>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>: >: >>
>: >: >> Terrible thing. Moran forgot to include one other little news
>: >: >>bit. Reported in the N.Y. Times, was an incident in a New Hampshire
>: >: >>High school that happened around Christmas time two years ago.
>: >: >> What happened was a group of kids were singing Christmas
>: >: >>carols in the hallway when a Jewish girl came up and ask them to stop.
>: >: >>The report didn’t say on what grounds the girl based her request, but
>: >: >>it was probably something she learned at home or ethnically nearby.
>: >: >>Whatever it was, the kids didn’t like it and roughed her up. The
>: >: >>report mentioned how many kids were enrolled in the school, citing
>: >: >>2500, of which 15 were Jewish.
>: >: >> No doubt the whole school was abuzz with the whole affair.
>: >: >> Talk about mass alienation and a quick lesson for the 2,485.

>: >: > I am curious, Tom. Seeing that you have – or will have – Jewish
>: >: > grandkids, how will you react when they come home from school having
>: >: > been roughed up? How will you react when they come home crying after
>: >: > Milt Kleim, Jr. tells them that he will make sure to get them during
>: >: > the next Holocaust? Just wondering how all this will effect you now
>: >: > that you have a Jewish family yourself?

>: >: Perhaps his grandchildren will be polite and not do such things?

>: >You think it’s polite for little kids to refrain from crying after being
>: >told they’re going to be gotten in the next Holocaust? Or after being
>: >roughed up? Weird.

>: You are so old you have forgotten childhood? Have you honestly
>: forgotten that any reason and no reason could result in the same
>: thing?

>Nope. But the fact is, Mr. “I’m going to try and change the subject”
>Giwer, this is no a case of being beat up for no reason. This was a
>question of whether Moran would condone his grandkids being beat up for
>being Jewish, and whether they would come home crying. You stated you
>didn’t think it would be ppolite for them to come home crying. You aew a
>very odd old man.

Changing the subject from what children do to each other to what?

>: Excuse me but I can not believe your sincerity in this matter.

>Tough. YOu are still a very odd old man.

What would age matter?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35448 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>> I agree that Chuck’s postings are threats and wish he would stop. Just
>>>> because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>>>> reason to intimate physical threats. There is no positive outcome that
>>>> can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.

>>>I agree, Chuck get excited. The “Al Gentile” showed up on compuserve
>>>in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>>>McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. “Al Gentile” is just
>>>another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.

>> Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You people
>>will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.

>Then how come the Simon W. Center has never heard of this name? Yup,
>the lies are still coming fast and furious. Incredible. Absolutely
>incredible.

Perhaps his name sounded too goy. Why should I be explaining
your report of their problem?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35449 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Letter to News Editors
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: >Oh, dear. Mr. Giwer is once again blowing his never-believed-anyhow
>: >: >theory that he has nothing against Joooos, but is just interested in the
>: >: >truth of the Holocaust. I guess he just couldn’t pass up a chance to get
>: >: >in a dig (via someone else’s words) at Jewish Israelis.

>: >: >Be a polite person, Mr. Giwer, and take this talk.politics.middle-east,
>: >: >willya?

>: >: For a slanderous idiot who continues to prove selective
>: >: condemnation with the use of joooos vice jews you have nothing to
>: >: contribute.

>: >Does this rambling, content-free, rude response mean that the Giwer
>: >considers this discussion germaine to alt.revisionism?

>: >And if so, one must ask: why?

>: >The answer: anti-Semitic troll, looking for attention.

>: When you correct the boy claiming Israel is a Jewish nation you
>: will have a leg to stand on.

>Much as I find your constant uncited references to what someone else said
>fascinating, I see no need here. Please illuminate us, oh grand poo-bah,
>as to why the discussion of Israel is germaine to a discussion of the
>Holocaust.

Damned if I know. I first encountered it when there was some
slanders posted about Pat Buchanan and the claim was that he was
talking about Jews when he was talking about Israel. I noticed
no objections to that post so I naturally assumed you folks saw
it fitting in some how.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35450 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected].netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Excuse me, Mr. wannabe Stanford Dr. Chemist Sir, just where is it
>> written that you can challenge my statement that there was more
>> HCN produced by the Kremas than was used by in any gassing when
>> you knew that flue gases from coke fires were one of the
>> commercial sources of it?

>REALLY MAJOR REALITY CHECK: Since when was permission required before
>Giwer’s stupendously absurd claims could be addressed? Never. That Giwer
>thinks there is simply evidences his deteriorating mental state. Furthmore,
>as Giwer (in article <[email protected]>) made the origional
>unsupported statement that “[t]he fire would of course probably produce
>more HCN than was used in any gassing unless there was quite some care in
>producing complete combustion,” it is required of Giwer to offer evidence
>in support of this. To date he has not. I would therefore urge Giwer to
>support his origional statement showing that the amount of HCN produced
>by the Krema furnaces used at Auschwitz would produce more HCN than was
>present in the gas chambers from the homicidal use of Zyklon B.

You should read more of what is on the conference. Three
commercial sources of HCN we listed just last week. One of them
was from the flue gases of a coke fire.

>In other words, using Krema II as our test case, please show that 875 kg
>of coke (the amount used to for the first incineration from a cold furnace),
>combusted under a near-optimal fuel/air ratio, would produce more HCN than
>6 kg of Zyklon B. (6 kg. of Zyklon B contains 4 kg of HCN
>[_Nazi Mass Murder_, p. 206].)

>Falure to do so, of course, means that Giwer’s claim is specious and
>therefore can be dismissed out of hand. (As if it already hasn’t been!)

Now you are insisting upon production rates when you appear to
have stipulated it is produced and even quoted my use of the word
“probably.”

What is your problem?

>> Or did you not know that that when you started your game? And if
>> you did know, as such a highly educated person should know, just
>> what what the purpose of your of your month long game playing?

>To demonstrate that you’re a big-mouthed twit who doesn’t have the balls
>to back up what he says?

Lets see, we got as far as the calories need to boil off the
water from flesh and we are still awaiting the number of calories
he is going to get from 1/10 gm of remaining flesh.

But what is it that makes you think he needs you to fly to his
rescue in this matter?

>> Your lack of integrity is now on permanent record at Nizkor. How
>> about having it brought to the attention of your thesis advisor?

>REALITY CHECK: I would suggest that rather than concerning himself with
>purile and baseless attacks about others’ integrity, he look towards his
>own tattered shreds of integrity first. He can start by substantiating his
>claims regarding HCN.

Read the newsgroup and keep up to speed.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:21 PDT 1996
Article: 35451 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:53:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>: >Prince Myshkin ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: >: There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>: >: holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.
>:
>: >I hope everyone was paying attention and noticed that Giwer now admits
>: >that he is a bigot.
>:
>: It was just admitted that the statement, “There is no evidence
>: the Spanish blew up the Maine” was not a bigotted statement.
>:
>: Would you like to show me the “bigotry” in both statements or why
>: there is a difference between the two statements?

>The first statement is false, and the second is true. The first is,
>in fact, so clearly and obviously false that bigotry is one of the
>few plausible explanations for it, along with ignorance, stupidity
>and trollery. Care to choose one?

What does truth or falsity have to do with bigotry?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:21 PDT 1996
Article: 35452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:53:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 5:51:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

>: > The problem is your ability to read.

>: >Mr. Giwer has amply demonstrated that his reading skills are not up
>: >to snuff! Quite ironic that the man who cannot tell the difference
>: >between “and” and “or” presumes to lecture others on their reading
>: >skills.

>: People are Jews by religion and birth.

>One hundred thousand cats and dogs were in the building.

>”Boy, those sure are weird half-cat half-dogs Mr. Giwer sees, aren’t they?”

Again, you continue to substitute multiple subjects into the
construction of the sentence.

>: > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>: >–Matt “I said it, but I will blame you for it!” Giwer

>: > What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>: >Truth that is under attack by lying bigots like Mr. Giwer!

>: Feeling like Superman? Defending truth and justice? Such a
>: noble calling.

>Uh, life isn’t a comic book, Mr. Giwer. He just talked about truth.

And of course needed you to leap to his defense. Are you his
sidekick?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:22 PDT 1996
Article: 35456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:40:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:44:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28036 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19380 alt.discrimination:46596 alt.revisionism:35456 alt.skinheads:22257

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>phone calls. And he still thinks I work for IBM. Poor frightened
>>delusional old Giwer-troll.

>Moved over from Internet Direct, eh?

>–
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

Fascinating that someone remembers the difference between direct
and indirect despite the denials and changed messages posted
here.

But of course, someone will change your post and swear to it.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:23 PDT 1996
Article: 35457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer continues to hog this site.
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:45:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:48:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Over 450 posts, many new ones, on a great variety of topics and
>subject matter. Just take a peek at Giwers number of posts. And to
>make matters worse, you have to read the crap to get rid of it. He
>babbles on and on about everything, contending that his superior IQ of
>20-30 something gives him some kind of an edge. If the man would just
>deal with the subject at hand, this could be an interesting site for
>intelligent discussions. Matt Giwer prevents that from happening and
>he loves every minute of it. Ever see a dog roll around in the grass
>on another dogs droppings? That dog loves to rub dog shit all over his
>body and this behavior reminds me of Matt Giwer. It’s illogical,
>stinks up the place, and the smelly dog ends up sleeping in the cold
>as a result of this natural impulse to smear doggie doo doo on his own
>body. Giwers sure reminds me of my dog, an ugly mutt, no brains,
>useless won’t even bark at burglars, just takes up space, and sheds
>hair all over the carpet. Needs to be loved though, in spite of the
>problems he creates. He’s old, some day soon the Vet will tell us it’s
>time, and bye bye pooch. Then all I’ll have is old Matt Giwer, rolling
>around in doo doo, smelling up the place, taking up too much space,
>contributing nothing to make society better. Pathetic!!! πŸ˜‰
>Chuck Ferree

Hey, nerfbrain (a harmless imitation of the real thing), how can
I be hogging a group that will expand to fit the message traffic?
Try the warez group for ibm binaries and see how bit a site can
really be.

But you were a ranking officer? translator? pilot? ranking
officer staff? on that trip to A-B?

It is no secret today that more people were in Vietnam combat
than the Army has any record of. WW II heros are no less
plentiful. Got a real name, rank and serial number for us?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:24 PDT 1996
Article: 35467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:01:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:04:13 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Um… Giwer? Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but Ken isn’t Jewish.
>Neither is Jamie, and neither am I.

>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html

Called the amen corner the last I heard. I have never stated
there was only one component to this phenomenon.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:24 PDT 1996
Article: 35479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rack Jite is Dave Dahlman of El Lago Texa anyway?
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:27:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 3:26:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>!Rack Jite wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:16:18 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>> wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>>
>> !Your real name is [NAME, ADDRESS, SUB DIVISION, STATE]

>Dave Dahlman, 315 Biscayne, El Lago, Texas
>>
>> And becase your Jew hating friend Giwer is not supposed to post

>Matt may or may not hate Jews. What has that got to do with anything.

Alec,

I hate you.

You will never see me in only a talith again.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35493 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 00:40:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 764
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: nyu.edu> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>: >: >>> This statement is correct. I might not word it exactly like Giwer has,
>: >: >>> but it is true that observation is less reliable than other forms of
>: >: >>> documentation and measurement.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> But you will also agree that if one eyewitness is corrrect they
>: >: >>war all correct.

>: >: > Your statement is vague and can be interpretated in a number of ways.

>: >: What is vague about, it one is correct all are correct?

>: >Well, the word “war,” is confusing in that context, but I’ll leave that
>: >aside.

>: When all else fails…

>: >What is vague is whether or not that statement is dealing with hwhat you
>: >belive as the cause portion of the evidentiary process, or wether, as
>: >stated below, you’re merely asserting the xistence of a tautology.

>: >The statement you made is not necessarily correct or incorrect. If you
>: >had stated “whenever one eyewitness makes a correct statement, and other
>: >eyewitnesses have concurring eyewitness testimony” — that would be
>: >addressable. Or if you had said “the fact that one witness is accurate
>: >makes all witnesses accurate” — that would also be addressable. But
>: >what you’ve stated is so vague as to be right, wrong, or unprovable
>: >either way, depending on the interpretaiton.

>: You folks are clearly unwilling to admit the “testimony” that
>: engine exhaust is nearly as equally as toxic as cyanide is false
>: and yet it is the linchpin of the entire testimony to a “beyond a
>: reasonable doubt” standard of proof.

>You’ve already been corrected on this one, so I’m not even going to
>bother. It’ sbeen stated so often that it depends on the amounts used —
>you’d think a big scientific expert like you would know that by know.

But what in fact you are correcting is an eyewitness. And you
are further admitting that science is superior to eyewitness
claims. And thus claims that are contrary to science can be
rejected.

>ANd your sentence was still vague, Mr. Giwer. Your English is not improving.

Nor your reading but at least you are learning.

>: >: > If one witness happens to correctly define truth, then other witnesses
>: >: > who state the same thing are probably defining truth. But this is a
>: >: > tautology and gets us nowhere.

>: >: Truth can not be defined, only recited.

>: >: > If one witness states a claim and there is no other evidence one way or
>: >: > another about the claim, from a scientific point of view we don’t know
>: >: > very much. If one witness states a claim and many other witnesses
>: >: > independently state the same claim then as scientists we can begin to
>: >: > triangulate from this.

>: >: You know nothing about science so please stop pretending to
>: >: knowledge of it.

>: >: You are complelely ignorant of any science past high school and
>: >: you know it.

>: >(Sigh) still doesn’t address the accuracy pf his point. A weak ad
>: >hominem argument, at best.

>: It is a statement of fact. A person with no knowledge of science
>: it pretending to refute me, who does have a knowledge of science.
>: And he also confirms that his knowledge is ZERO as you did not
>: edit out below. And thus I have only repeated what he has said.

>And I repeat: still doesn’t address the accuracy of his point. A weak ad
>hominem argument at best.

Then you are agreeing that someone who knows nothing about your
favorite holocaust can speak as an authority upon it. Or is such
knowledge only required where you say it is required? Why do the
requirements change only toward your position?

>: >: >>>> But then you have no scientific training and as such you have no
>: >: >>>>basis from which to speak.
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> I have no knowledge of what Mr. Litt’s vita consists of. Might you
>: >: >>> tell us all, Mr. Giwer, precisely what is Mr. Litt’s background? Oh,
>: >: >>> you don’t know? If that is the case Mr. Giwer, you are lying.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> But we know that your background is ZERO in science as are all
>: >: >>the gang of six and yours.

>: >: > My background in the physical sciences is ZERO.

>: This is below.

>: >: You did not have to repeat what was obvious.

>: >: I took one biology and
>: >: > one physics class in high school. I have never taken a chemistry
>: >: > class. (You will note I never engage in the Zyklon debates). My
>: >: > social science methods training consists of at least a dozen graduate
>: >: > level courses in quantitative and qualitative methods. These courses
>: >: > have been taken in sociology, urban studies, psychology, organizational
>: >: > behavior, education, information systems, and architecture. (I have a
>: >: > fairly broad background.) You will note that there is no
>: >: > historiography among those classes, however, my undergraduate degree is
>: >: > in history.

>: >: And from all of this pretention to education you should have
>: >: learned the common beliefs of demographic groups. Such as the
>: >: eternal truths that whites invented AIDS to exterminate Blacks
>: >: and Nazis invented gas chambers to exteriminate Jews.

>: >Well, Mr. Giwer, he never made the former claim.

>: Nor did I say he made such an assertion. I was merely pointing
>: out the irrational beliefs that exist within demographic groups.

>If he didn’t say it, why do you find it OK to attribute it yo what he
>should know?

Such clarity. Want to try that again?

>: And as to the latter,
>: >he has a social science background and is qualified to examine the
>: >sociologicl aspects of the Holocaust.

>: It is good to read you agree he is not qualified to examime the
>: physical science aspects of the holocaust.

>: What are your qualifications to do
>: >so, given how important you consider training?

>: I have not claimed to do so else you would have read many
>: sociometric studies referenced in my posts and you have read of
>: none.

>: So what is the point of your question?

>You’ve constantly referred to sociological patterns, including that great
>discussion of the Jews’ reaction to Hitler. Now that you’ve admitted you
>know nothing about it, I guess we can all see where your discussion came
>from.

Isn’t this what you referred to above as an ad hominem attack?
Now you are back to requiring knowledge here where you do not
require any knowledge of science to speak upon it. What changed?

>: >: > I can’t speak one way or another about the methods training of the
>: >: > contributers to Nizkor.

>: >: > Again, what did you say about your background?

>: >: BS, Physics, 1967, U of Cincinnati, 18 years with NAVSHIPS/NAVSEA
>: >: in R&D Management. You may follow this with MAR, D. Gordon
>: >: Interional, and AICON.

>: >Gee, I thought your work was in computers…..Or did you, during your
>: >time in R&D MANAGEMENT, actually work in chemical enginerring. All
>: >scientific experience is not the same. What was it you actually did?

>: After teaching myself to program in 1967, a Charles Clark (his
>: father was head of NTT before it was given back to the Japanese)
>: went around saying “he know computers” and he made my reputation
>: although at the time it was grossly undeserved. Over the years,
>: when a computer related project came along, I was first in line
>: for it and usually got it.

>: In the process, and as the man with the pursestrings, the real
>: pros in the field educated me at every opportunity. They did a
>: great job. Lots of PhDs and lesser degreed practical field types
>: were involved. It is just a matter of learning from the pros and
>: certainly I collected more lecture hours over the years in the
>: important stuff than the average CS type.

>: BTW: In the above list I left out Softech. You are familiar
>: with them are you not?

>: And as to the “scientific experience” issue you would know, if
>: you had any, that principles are across the board. The widely
>: quoted Popper is not specific to any field of science and in fact
>: is so broad that what was originally intended to address the hard
>: sciences is so broad that creationists use him to attack
>: evolution.

>: In the hard sciences the criteria is always the same. They do
>: not apply to the many misnamed sciences such as computer science
>: and self proclaimed soft sciences such as social science and
>: medical science.

>Sorry, Mr. Giwer, you just struck out a big whiff. Your knowledge is all
>computer PROGRAMMING? SO in other words, beyond that old degree, you’ve
>got no experince in “hard science” at all. So then by your own
>statements, you’re not qualified to talk about the chemical issues.
>(or to talk to Rich Green about any of this).

Actually programming is a rather minor talent. Ocean acoustics
and piezoelectric ceramics, primarily PZT-4, are my major areas
of expertise. I was into non-linear acoustics and oceanography
many years ago but have forgotten most of that.

As for Green I am at least honest about it. But he uses his
claimed credentials to imply that bones do not burn and that HCN
is not a burn product of coke. All you are doing in saying I was
wrong about those claims is being taken in by his game playing.
Most people would consider his game playing unethical.

>In other words, you are what you appeared to be. An ignorant old troll.

Rather than deal with the issues you indulge in what you have
already described as an ad hominem attack. Is there something
you are missing about what you are doing?

>: >(And oooooooh. A 30-year old Bacjelor’s in physics. I guess that makes
>: >you an expert in physics.)

>: That I have never claimed. I have at most claimed to have not
>: forgotten the basics.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could you know? (Insert ad hominem reference to you
ignorance of science.)

>: >: >> So
>: >what is your point?

>: >: > My point above is that you asserted Mr. Litt has no scientific
>: >: > training.

>: >: Excuse me. I did not realize you were speaking for him in the
>: >: presumption that he is unable to speak for himself. And just
>: >: what do you think your soft science credentials inserted in place
>: >: of his lack of real ones have to do with this discussion?

>: >: I asserted that you are blowing hot air out your ass as you
>: >: > have no knowledge what Mr. Litt’s background is.

>: >: I have knowledge based upon his postings as you would know had
>: >: you education in a real science. You folks ignorant of real
>: >: science truly do not have a clue.

>: >: As you have not since
>: >: > offered any information about Mr. Litt’s background I continue to
>: >: > assert you are blowing hot air out your ass – and now I will assert
>: >: > that the air smells foul.

>: >: You may read his mind and do a second hand defense to your
>: >: heart’s content but that does not make him the least bit more
>: >: credible or knowledgeable than he was before you spoke up.

>: >: But I am certain he is grateful for you defense of his scientific
>: >: ignorance. He is obviously unable to defend himself without your
>: >: help.

>: >Well, here’s where I jump in. I have never, and never will, assert a
>: >training in science. I have not stated wither way to this point, so Mr.
>: >Giwer is blowing smoke abut any previous knowledge. He is right that i
>: >have no scientific traing, although I personally don’t consider a (nyuk
>: >nyuk nyuk) 30-year-old Bachelor’s degree to be any great shakes in the
>: >training department.

>: Excuse me, but just what would you consider 60 hours on the job
>: experience for 20+ years in addition to that 30 year old degree
>: to be?

>Enough to enable you to make a Website. No hard science at all. No
>knowledge at all.

>What did you think I thought it was?

What would you suggest was the result of having tech cog on the
AN/SQS-53C? That’s the sonar on the bow of the Arleigh Burke
class. They were running around $60 million a copy when I left
the project. Connect to your favorite search engine and look for
the ships of the Burke class.

And of course HTML is not much of an accomplishment. It only
took about a month to get the first version up.

>: >I’ll state it here and now:
>: >Bachelor’s in Political Science
>: >Juris Doctor
>: >LL.M. (current program) in International Legal Studies.

>: Let me add political sciense to the self proclaimed non-science
>: list.

>Never said it was, but they don’t have “Internaytinal Relaitons” at Michigan.

>: And in regard to the previous, regardless of the year of your LLD
>: you would hold that it is as dated as it seems and that all of
>: the intervening years of experience have detracted from your LLD.

>What the hell is an LL.D.? There’s never been any such degree. Even
>before it became the J.D., the basic law degree was an LL.B. Do you mean
>that, or the LL.M.? And no — years of *relevant* experience don’t detract.

You have no degree at all? I was under the impression you did.
I can see why you did not bother.

>: >My areas of experience are in (gasp) Public International Law and
>: >Immigration Law.

>: >Perhaps this is why I also stayed out of the Chemistry debates, something
>: >Mr. Giwer should have also done, given his “experience.” I note that his
>: >ignorance never kept out of debates about international law or
>: >immigration law, despite his complete ignorance on the subject.

>: Does this mean that

>: a) You were the person who was going to post the US immigration
>: law that mentioned Jews as excludable?

>Nope. And I’m not repeating this again. The *law* did not do so. The
>quotas set during those years did so. Congress did not need to amend the
>immigration laws to keep Jews out. I know that this is hard for you,
>even after 4 repetitions, so try this time to get it straight.

Then you agree they were not anti-semitic. It took you a hell of
a long time to get around to admitting that.

>: or

>: b) You are the person who remained silent when the claim was
>: made?

>No, I’ve tried 4 times to explain it to you, but apparently I’m using
>words that are too big, once again.

Then you would now hold they continue to anti-semitic and in fact
always have been. Some one as intellectually deceitful as
yourself could add a lot to the creationist arguments. You could
probably turn over a rock and find both creation and
anti-semitism. (BTW: That is a free straight line. You folks
appear to be running of juvenile ridicule lines.)

>: or

>: c) Your degree is so old that your work experience does not
>: count?

>My degree? You mean the one I’m currently earning?

May I ask the field?

>: >I asserted Mr. Giwer’s response to evidence — something i konw about
>: >from only the legal standpoint. I know the legal/proof value of
>: >eyewitness testimony, and the problems inherent therein.
>: > I cannot partake of the chemical debate
>: >– but I can see Mr. Giwer’s transparent tactics when confronted with
>: >evidence not in his favor.

>: You may “see” but you will not demonstrate it, only assert it.

>Wrong again. Boy, you just love pretending ignorance. Sheesh.

Then point them out if they are so obvious. Or is this taking
away from your study time?

>: >: > My point might be extended to say that you asserted knowledge of my
>: >: > background without having any information. (You can claim victory in
>: >: > guessing I know little about the physical sciences – in a manner you
>: >: > are want to do when you are cornered – but it will be a hollow
>: >: > victory.)

>: >: You need to learn something about the real sciences. Everything
>: >: that is posted is telegraphed. It reads like science or it does
>: >: not. There is no middle ground. It is not like you soft science
>: >: types wish it were.

>: >: >>>>>(2)An insistence on being right in the face of contrary evidence;
>: >: >>>>
>: >: >>>> Eyewitnesses are not evidence as any scientist knows.
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> Well, Mr. Giwer, two paragraphs above you say it is unreliable
>: >: >>> evidence.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> Not unreliable, rather worthless.

>: >: > Actually, no. One eyewitness is rather worthless. Many eyewitnesses
>: >: > can be triangulated to learn valuable information. That is, the
>: >: > reliability is improved when many independent measures are taken.
>: >: > (Even a PHYSICAL scientist should be able to understand that!)

>: >: Eyewitnesses that contradict each other and physical science HAS
>: >: HAVE BEEN POSTED HERE AS “PROOF” of things that have no physical
>: >: evidence.

>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn’t figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to
>: >have 100% accuracy. That’s not humanly possible, except perhaps in a
>: >Heinlein novel. The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness
>: >is substantially accurate. If the witnesses are so distorted as to call
>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there’s a
>: >problem. But often a witness who can’t remember whatcolor socks a robber
>: >was wearing isn’t then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect
>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.

>: The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>: the ‘engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes’ story that is sworn to by
>: OBC here. Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>: skeptical response.

>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already
>posted the “answer.”

That the eyewitness was lying of course.

>: It is not a question of being 100% correct. It is a matter of
>: being 100% false.

>Yup. I can state with full certainty that you are 100% false.

That was another clever one. You college kids are amazing.

>: >: But even you should understand that were such things admitted as
>: >: proof then in fact there are “greys” abducting and impregnating
>: >: woman on their flying saucers.

>: >: You can not have it both ways. If testimony is proof of one
>: >: thing then it is proof of another. If “all agreeing” confirms
>: >: the testimony then UFO abductions are confirmed.

>: >: There is no middle ground in you position. If you believe this
>: >: gassing then you support UFO abductions on exactly the same
>: >: grounds.

>: >Faulty argument. The issue of eyewitness testimony is a lot more comlex
>: >than that. Eyewtiness testimony is obviously of some value.

>: But so is the cross examination and the testimony for the defense
>: which is never presented nor is full trial information. It is
>: always presented as though the “witness” is testifying against
>: himself with the presumption of a conviction.

>Since the outcome is known, there is a presumption of a conviction —
>because they were convicted, grandpa. Senility kicking in again?

Since you are such an expert in these matters, what was Hoess of
Auschwitz fame convicted of? what was he acquitted of? Why did
Rodenko put him on trial twice? And explain how the acquittal
was possible given the book he wrote while you are at it.

>: Now, the
>: >more there is of such testmony which is not in substantial disagreement
>: >(e.g., one says “blue socks,” one says “green socks” is not *substantial*
>: >disagreement) — the more the evidence gains weight. Physical evidence
>: >to back it up is even more useful in adding to the weight.

>: But that is not what they testify to. They in fact testify to
>: the impossible.

>Only if a troll like you distorts their testimony or fun.

Even when we know they lied in their testimony?

>: >But it’s all a question of degree. Testimony is not *automatically*
>: >proof — but a lot of testimony, in substantial agreement, is lot a lot
>: >more weighty in terms of proof. Does this ever fail? Of course —
>: >because a lot of other factors are invlved. But does this mean testimony
>: >cannot be prof? Of course not.

>: Although it is not in agreement with itself, it is also contrary
>: to physical law. Only according to a computer programmer with senility
>problems and a hatred of Jews.

>: >Mr. Giwer takes complex issues which have been studied for much longer
>: >than he’s been around, and tries to reduce them to 2-sentence sound bites.

>: Sorry but saying they all died in 15-20 minutes from engine
>: exhaust is exactly the same as saying the SS turned off the
>: gravity and they all flew off into space. That you do not
>: understand that is your problem.

>: After all, the only person who knew anything about DNA was thrown
>: off of the OJ jury. Lawyers do fear people who have an
>: acquaintance with science.

>Boy, you just LOOOVVVVEEEE generalizations, don’t you? YOu’d be
>helpless without them.

Actually it is quite factual as science speaks louder than
arguement. People who will rely upon science are not susceptable
to “might haves” that are contrary to it.

>: >: >>> That would make it evidence, would it not? Whether or not
>: >: >>> you agree with me, you assertion just above is incorrect. Eyewitness
>: >: >>> evidence (aka observation) is surely a method of gathering scientific
>: >: >>> knowledge. Would you like cites from methods textbooks? Would you
>: >: >>> like a cite for a research note I have had published which discusses
>: >: >>> triangulating among three forms of observation in order to maximize
>: >: >>> reliability? (The content of the research note is wholely unrelated to
>: >: >>> the Holocaust, but it does discuss the use of observation as a way of
>: >: >>> gathering scientific knowledge.)
>: >: >>
>: >: >> When testimony is contrary to known science it is bullshit, lies,
>: >: >>nonsense, and whatever the hell appelation can be put upon it.

>: >: > Agreed (in a way). If the physical evidence and the testimonial
>: >: > evidence are contradictory, I would tend to lean towards the physical
>: >: > evidence. (Which is one reason Johnny Cochran would never have me on a
>: >: > jury :>) There are many examples with the Holocaust where the
>: >: > testimony of survivors is discounted either because it is contidictory
>: >: > with what many other witnesses have to say or because it is physically
>: >: > impossible. Even so, that testimony can be helpful in painting a
>: >: > general picture of events, even if it connot be used to pin down
>: >: > details.

>: >: Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>: >: there is none.

>: >Nope. Wrong again. We’ve said it before — if you can find any law
>: >which doesn’t allow testimony sans physical evidence, please let us know.

>: At least for the federal level, the rules of evidence were posted
>: here. They are as I have said. I have always stipulated that
>: there were exceptional cases which permitted testimony in the
>: absense of evidence when there was an adequate jusitifcation for
>: the absense of evidence presented.

>WHAT??!!! Man, your ability to lie is amazing. The FRE said nothing of
>the sort.

Perhaps you should read it again.

>: >: >> On the other hand, you have no concept of science, you are
>: >: >>clearly making it up as you go along, and as I have posted my
>: >: >>credentials you are certainly invited to post yours.

>: >: > Sorry, I missed your credentials. Please post again. Mine are above.

>: >: Already done. You are at best a soft science type and you know
>: >: that samplying beliefs has nothing to do with the truth.

>: >: >> You are a lying little shit and you know it. You know testimony
>: >: >>is not evidence.

>: >And you aren’t a lawyer, and you don’t have any knowledge of evidentiary
>: >matters (And you know nothing about immigration or Constitutions, for
>: >that matter). YOu’re at best a know-nothing troll who takes a minimal
>: >knowledge of chemistry and attempts to spawn as many arguments as possible.

>: Excuse me but if you are an attorney as you appear to claim AND
>: are familiar with the case at hand as you appear to claim, then
>: you are aware of the federal rules of evidence that were posted
>: here.

>I’m familiar with the FRE, although I haven’t seen them posted here.
>I’m also familiar with your tendency to claim documents that disagree
>with you actually agree with you. So why not share that mystical section
>of the FRE with us?

It is the part that says the prosecution can not simply announce
that a gun is the murder weapon used by the accused but rather
must establish a chain of evidence from it actually being the
murder weapon up through the defendent actually using it.
Preferably, of course, having a corpse in the first place.

>: And of course you, as a fully qualified expert on immigration
>: law, have failed to post the anti-semitic immigration laws you
>: are now supporting.

>Repeat, repeat, repeat,………………..

Now that you have either agreed they either were not or are now
you can make any claim you wish.

>: Failing to post them yet continuing to imply they in fact existed
>: is certainly enough to bring your claim of being a practicing
>: immigration attorney into question. But then, of course, that is
>: NOT what you claimed, is it? Therefore you have maintained
>: plausible deniability without ever making a direct claim.

>(sigh) You just can’t speak English, can you?
>IT WASN’T THE LAW, IT WAS THE QUOTAS USED DURING THOSE YEARS.

The quotas were by nation or region, not be religion. And the
quotas were set by law of course. Or were quotas established
independent of law in those days?

>: Do you really think a few debating experiences puts you up to
>: what you have to do here?

>Deal with a troll who hasn’t figured out how to post evidence for any of
>his allegaitons? Most definitely.

A college student with minimal real world experience, no
background in science, and who discovered this form of debate
upon entering college really thinks he knows what he is doing.

Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
juvenile ridicule and such.

And now, after having realized that you have repeated something
you were told as a child, that the US immigration laws were
anti-semitic, rather than simply acknowledge that to have been a
false belief or simply dropping it (which is the desirable
approach,) you keep coming back trying to establish your belief
in the face of knowledge.

That is like a creationist faced with certain knowledge that the
stories he has believed about such things as Noah’s Ark are
clearly impossible.

>: >: > You also have no evidence I am little ;> (How testimony is evidence is
>: >: > explained above. I invite anyone else who is reading this and actually
>: >: > has methods training to comment.)

>: >: With your purported education it is unclear how you can believe
>: >: polls and witnesses.

>: >I know how and when I can believe witnesses — what is it in your
>: >Bachelor’s in Science that enables you to do so?

>: Back up. It is your lack of polling data that is the subject of
>: this point. Would you care to address it?

>No, since you said polls *and* witnesses, and I haven;t seen anything
>that combines the two. And under your definition of “and,” that’s what
>you meant.

Fine. Where are both? I was giving you a shot at taking them
one at a time. You are assuming an even greater burden and still
failing to provide anything.

>: >: >>>>>(4)A feeling that the world is “wrong” for not believing him.
>: >: >>>>
>: >: >>>> I have not asked people to believe what I have said. I have
>: >: >>>>challenged the claims of the holohuggers and they have demanded
>: >: >>>>that a negative be proven, something any scientist laughs at.
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> Well, the “holohuggers” as you call them are putting forth the null
>: >: >>> hypothesis about the Holocaust. That is, they are presenting here
>: >: >>> information about the Holocaust the (notice my use of caps, I am
>: >: >>> shouting at you to get your attention) EVERY SINGLE ACCREDITED
>: >: >>> HISTORIAN [1] IN THE WORLD IS IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH [2]. Given this,
>: >: >>> it seems to me that there is no need to defend this null hypothesis;
>: >: >>> the burden of proof is on an individual who attempts to put forward an
>: >: >>> alternative hypothesis.
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> If anyone disagrees with me on this, I’d be happy to hear you state
>: >: >>> your case.

>: >: > I note Giwer’s silence.

>: >: State your case and I discuss your case.

>: >ANd that’s where you get into trouble, el Giwero. “State your case” —
>: >the plaintiff asserting the alteration to the existing regiment is the
>: >one who has the burden to state a case. There is such a thing as Prima
>: >Facie evidence, but the plaintiff at least has to make such a showing.

>: As a self proclaimed attorney you are fully aware that the
>: prosecution bears the complete burden of proof.

>As a complete buffoon on the subject of law, you are apparently aware that:

>(1)In a criminal case, the plaintiff is the Prosecution.
> but in a civil case, there’s no prosecution.

Since this involves claims of gassing it is a criminal case with
not only the burden of proof but beyond a reasonable doubt.

>(2)The defendat, even in criminal cases, bears the burden of proof on certain
> issues. In a civil case, much more so.

Then all defendents MUST present witnesses on their behalf in
your world?

>: >This is why it’s possible for the defendant to rest without making a
>: >case, or to move for summary judgment. ANd what happens then, if the
>: >defendant prevails in such a manner? — why, the status quo is still
>: >where it was — because the one asserting the change has the burden.

>: >While I realize that as a troll, your modus operandi is merely reactive,
>: >to get anywhere in the world of Holocaust Denial, you would eventually
>: >have to make a claim of your own.

>: What you need to realize is that the even the pale follow-ons to
>: WW II war time propaganda about mass murders bears the burden of
>: proof. You folks have never made a credible case. It was always
>: the “gassing of the gaps” in that any place there is conclusively
>: no evidence of gassing it has always been moved to places where
>: there is not such conclusive evidence.

>: Now the conclusive evidence is both at A-B and Dachau where it
>: was conclusively shown it never happened. But then it is
>: perhaps just my personal problem that I can not deal with both
>: there were and there were not gas chambers in Germany and
>: attempt to keep a conversation going.
>:

>Or perhaps you can’t dealwith addressing the evidence as it exists,
>instead of as it exists in your mind.

It has been presented here with all of the “what else could it
mean?” fallacious arguments from ignorance. It is like the “I
can’t think of another explanation for the world so there has to
have been intelligent design” fallacies of the creationists.

>: >: >>>> In any event you are
>ignorant of any : >science and you
>: >have no : >>>>business pretending you know anything about any science.
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> And you assert your lack of ignorance because…? (include your pubs,
>: >: >>> please)

>: >: > I note Giwer’s silence.

>: >: And yours are?

>: >NOt an answer –we’re not asserting any study in science — YOU are.
>: >I’ve stated, and Mr. Mittelman has stated, that we have no scientific
>: >training — so why would we have pubs? Mr. Green, on the other hand —
>: >now there’s someone to compare pubs with, given how often you’ve blasted
>: >his knowledge.

>: I know you folks have made your statements yet you both post as
>: though you had such training or experience when you clearly do
>: not. It does not take the proverbial rocket scientist to read
>: your posts and realize you are offering opinions out of complete
>: ignorance of science.

>: >And I would like to see a list of anything you’ve done in the areas of
>: >immigration, international, consitutional, or Israeli law.

>: I will be interesting in reading your post of a single US law
>: that addresses Jews. Absent that, you are lying.

>Or you’re just ignoring what I’ve now said 5 times.

>: >”Constitution in Israel” — BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!!!!!!!

>: Quacks like but it is not. I love it.

>Tell me again, oh Mr. law expert. My Israeli friends LOVE that one.
>Tell me some more.

You have never heard about ducks?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:27 PDT 1996
Article: 35494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli State Terrorism (Lessons of the Holocaust)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:41:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 4:39:41 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>J. McCarthy wrote:

>> Not to mention that interminable series of subordinate clauses and
>> prepositional phrases! Sheesh! “to…that…which…to…who…of…”

>[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>> I try not to get concerned with people’s grammar, it’s petty and time
>> wasting. Of course, that can be useful sometimes I suppose.

>I was just trying to inject a little levity…

Another antisemite, introducing Levites into the discussion.

After all, even the truth can be anti-semitic.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 35506 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:09:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]n.com>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>># I have not read any of Zundel’s material nor do I have any
>>># interest in doing so. But there needs be some perspective upon
>>># the mentions here.

>>>[Rest deleted – conists of Giwer defending Zundel and claiming
>>> that his “UFO theories” are not really that goofy]

>> I have only said they were at one time common. I have also said
>>that those who accept eyewitness testimony in the absense of
>>physical evidence will believe anything.

>Where, what and who is doing this?

Head to a used book store and hope for FATE magazine from the
50s. It was the best chronicaler of what was going on at the
time. You might also look for UFO related paperbacks from the
same time frame.

Or are you referencing me being they only person to harp upon the
sworn truth of OBC that engine exhaust and cyanide are
effectively equally deadly? None of the true believers commented
upon it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 35521 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 02:25:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 276
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: >: du> <[email protected]>
>: >: >:
>: >: >: <[email protected]>
>: >: >:
>: >: >: <[email protected]> Distribution:
>:
>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: >: >: Lets see. There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through
>: >: >: the streets after annexation. Therefore Austrians enthusiastically
>: >: >: embraced annexation.
>:
>: >: >: There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last
>: >: >: visit. Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton.
>:
>: >: >: It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn
>: >: >: out an enthusiastic crowd.
>:
>: >: >: However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that
>: >: >: such crowds are spontanious. When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he
>: >: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a
>: >: >: cheering crowd first.
>:
>: >: >: Of course, that is revisionism. Austrian crowds were different from
>: >: >: all other political crowds in the world. I understand the dogma.
>:
>: >: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218: Don’t actually say
>: >: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler
>: >: >enthusiastically). Instead, just point out why the evidence presented
>: >: >doesn’t meet your personal standards. Provide no evidence for this,
>: >: >either, other than your opinion of what’s logical.
>:
>: >: Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques.
>: >: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of
>: >: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything.
>: >: But let me remark that I find you “standard of proof” rather in
>: >: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous.
>:
>: >Not even necessary — I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if
>: >you can find anywhere I said that, I’ll send you 10 bucks.
>:
>: The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption
>: in your posts.

>Chicken. Just like I thought. You like to make accusations, but you
>can’t back them up, so you turn tail and run. Bawk.

Do you not realize how old hat this “betting” thing is on the
nets?

>: >Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm? I would say yes.
>:
>: Right! And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along
>: the route pouring freely. It was not invented in Austria.

>Source, please?

The earliest reference I have come across to it was Chicago
machine politics from the 20s but then it was speakeasies. You
have never heard of using alcohol for politics? They even cheer
louder.

>: Do they prove
>: >EVERYONE is enthusiastic? of course not. But your counter-example is
>: >interesting — if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for
>: >Clinton’s visit to Tampa, I would say “Tampa greeted Clinton
>: >enthusiastically.”
>:
>: Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be
>: saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera
>: that you saw a staged political rally as they all are. Even
>: honest journalists would only photograph the action.

>well, I was in DC for the inauguration (I lived there at the time) and by
>golly, there was a huge outpouring of enthusiasm. And you know what? No
>free anything at the inauguration route. You had to go to the parties
>later for food and such, and those weren’t free.

In inaugrations, as you are attempting to confuse this with, they
were the party activists that came to be invited to the
celebration and paid to cover the cost of the celebration. Or
did you show up to cheer? I lived there for 25 years. I never
did know a local who showed up to cheer. Were you the exception
I should have known?

>: >More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting
>: >Hitler enthusiastically. You’ve given some half-assed, unsupported
>: >assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that’s enough.
>:
>: Now I am supposed to prove a negative? Very creationist of you.

>It’s creationist to want proof of an assertion? How anti-standards of
>you. This explains why you never provide support for anything you say.
>YOu asserted it, but now you can’t prove it. Bawk.

You will note your words are “disproves Austria” etc. How am I
supposed to disprove? Am I to take you literally and note that
only Austrians can greet? You appear to have a serious cognitive
problem.

But now that we are down to only people can greet then we also
accept that not all of Austria was lining the streets. (Of
course you can demand I prove they were not.)

After we are down to some then we know there were many members of
the Nazi Party in Austria so we have a ready made crowd. If they
needed more you simply give them something in return just like
party workers drive people to polling booths today and swing by a
MacDonalds or some such to “obligate” them to the party of the
driver.

Are you really as naive as you sound or was there some point to
your pretending?

>: >: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of
>: >”ordinary
>: >: >: >> >citizens'” complicity in other atrocities–in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia,
>: >: >: >> >Armenia, etc.–as part of his argument that “ordinary Germans” were
>: >: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust.
>: >: >: >>
>: >: >: >> I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and
>: >: >: >> killing them. When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of
>: >: >: >> this comparison?
>:
>: >: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually–although in Germany, millions stood
>: >: >: >silently by and let it happen.
>:
>: >: >: So you are in the “everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the
>: >: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening” camp. Very good.
>: >: >: I will try to remember that.
>:
>: >: >Ooooh, he’s a “Neo-Nizkorite” or whatever it was he called someone. He’s
>: >: >keeping a “mental file” — the difference between him and Nizkor is that
>: >: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate.
>:
>: >: But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with
>: >: the intent to deceive.
>:
>: >Nope. You’ve got no proof of that, because it didn’t happen. Someday
>: >you’ll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no
>: >evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole.
>:
>: Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very
>: creationist.

>How odd — Matt Giwerhas a new epithet of the day when he’s doging backing
>up his statements — “creationist.” Mr. Giwer, if you have no support for
>your assertions, positive or negative, then you’re just blowing smoke.
>Troll.

I clearly have the eyewitness testimony contrary to each other
and physical law as evidence. That you folks believe so strongly
that you explain it all away, much as a creationist explains away
the impossibilities of the Flood and as convincingly, is only
convincing to your fellow believers.

Witness the “explanation” that diesel engine exhaust looks white.
And I have yet to dump on the boy that steam is invisible after
it expands. Yet he BELIEVES it.

> : >: >: Here’s the passage from Goldhagen : >: >: >I was thinking
>of: :
>: >: >: >”No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is
>: >: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its
>: >: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . .
>: >: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of
>: >: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their
>: >: >: >victims deserved to die? Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered
>: >: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one
>: >: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another,
>: >: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of
>: >: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the
>: >: >: >same for the German perpetrators?” (pp. 14-15).
>:
>: >: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass
>: >: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination
>: >: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government’s actions
>: >: >: >against Jews. He is particularly critical of the idea that German
>: >: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians
>: >: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate.
>:
>: >: >: So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is
>: >: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people. It is not a very subtle
>: >: >: propaganda technique. I would have expected you to notice it.
>:
>: >: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you
>: >: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen’s methods. Do you alweays decide
>: >: >before seeing any actual facts?
>:
>: >: If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the
>: >: point to the discussion?
>:
>: >Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask
>: >again: Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts?
>:
>: I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon
>: the book as a whole. As you know that is true, what is the point
>: of your question?

>WHoops, it’s the Matt Giwer “opposite time” again. Of course I don’t
>”know” that is true, because it isn’t. You’ve commented on parts from
>all over the whole damn
>book, and you haven’t read anything in it.

>That’s called “distortion” and “intellectual dishonesty,” words I think
>must be on your family crest.

That things from all over the book were posted here and that I
commented upon them is true. It is also true that those same
things were defended by people who had not read the book. When
was the rule passed that only one side had to read the book
before commenting?

>: >: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>:
>: >: >: What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>:
>: >: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book’s methodolgy without even reading it?
>:
>: >: You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you
>: >: start talking about someone doing it. If you knew what that
>: >: meant you would know I have not. If you had been following the
>: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: >: book does not contain the methodology.
>:
>: >The book does not contain “the” methodology? Interesting accusation.
>:
>: Go back and read.

>I did. Try again, with feeling this time.

With feeling this time.

>: If you had been following the
>: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: >: book does not contain the methodology.
>:
>: Notice “ANOTHER PERSON” in the statement? Another person made
>: the accusation, not me.

>Aha! The newest Giwer technique: “someone else said it, not me.”
>We’re still waiting on about 3 other places where you’ve made this
>allegation.

Correcting the false statements of holohuggers is a very old
technique of mine.

>: >Sometime you will have to explain what “the” methodology is.
>: >But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which
>: >to summarize its methodology. which makes you a troll just starved for
>: >attention.
>:
>: When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>MAn, you still haven’t figured out what’s happened, have you?

Quite a schoolboy response.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 10:11:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 398
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:14:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

What was the holocaust?
First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million
people went into concentration and work camps and about a million
emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared.
Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is
where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have
not been critically reviewed.
The question is, why would people lie about what
happened to them? There are many likely answers to that
question.

o Motivation
Plain and simple revenge against the people who had
imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely
shameful manner.
o Mistaken
In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most
erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors
as the truth is certainly to have been expected.
o Physical condition
Although there is question as to the physical
conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then
these people were on the point of starvation and that common
induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term.

Certainly there are other possible explanations for false
information to have been generated but these three are sufficient
to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these
statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as
true without physical evidence.

What was the plan for the Holocaust?

Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is
the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level
official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it
discusses two plans, before and after the conference.
The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to
change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This
is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that
addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note.
The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be
moved out of Europe. The is referred to as “to the east” and by
the curious word “emigrated” in the common translation. No death
camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe,
certainly a violation of human rights but that is it.
After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister.
The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death
by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a
deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only.
In between the description of these two plans there is what
appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well
in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have
required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at
that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than
for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan.
But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention
whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to
death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65
to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar
provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I.
The conclusion of course is that although this document is
often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned
to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That
plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late
1941.

What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the
information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these
witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories
that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and
otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best.
Additionally the most common witness testimony used to
support these stories is only from the prosecution without
indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It
is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases.
One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that
contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered
credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were
killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks
when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in
discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in
testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing
causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as
turning off the gravity.

What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the
deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that
millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work
camps and that very few survived. But what little physical
evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being
force fit into a preconceived conclusion.
For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at
Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that
had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the
reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is
to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to
perform this function. This effort has problems right from the
start.
First we note that it is partially underground and that the
walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note
that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same
compound there are two other buildings without the construction.
They use simple peaked roofs which are cheaper to construct.
Although the partially underground construction can be
explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use
as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it
makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the
more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas
chamber.
Other possible design features include an air-tight door
(found 200 feet away), a ventilation system, and either two or
four small holes in the roof. The second two are potential in
that there exists at the moment exactly one conceptual drawing
that is not a blueprint and the blower that drove the ventilation
system has not been found so we have only a general idea of its
capacity.
Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to
a gas chamber have always asked, “What else could it be?” when in
fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most
obvious is a bomb shelter.
There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the
compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping
the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls
exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of
course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin
your whole day.
But in addition to structural damage protection there is
damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would
protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage
eardrums. And thus the air-tight door to keep that pressure wave
out of the building.
Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed
air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust
for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal
as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing
creatures.
The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know
what design features of large scale gas chamber would be.
Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the
subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such
textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the
first and only large scale gas chambers in the world.
Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting
an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged
to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial.
Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or
experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how
developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and
incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of
a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people.
But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are
being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual
drawing that is an a gas chamber. The clear admission is that
they are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want
it to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses.
And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of
another purpose, that of a bomb shelter.
Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter
hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a
morgue in its primary fuction and gained a secondary purpose by
the modifications in its construction.
Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three
structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp.
Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the
evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still
there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed.
Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be
of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter.

* * * * *

Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although
the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is
officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at
Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a
space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for
its lesser number.
The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to
have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by
being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony
to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not
mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not
believe in those methods any longer.
Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest
of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down
every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found
today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind.
At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is
the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon
monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony
regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame
as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly
nor did they have the same release mechanisms.
Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but
what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them.
Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that
would have been needed to make them work. For example, the
engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the
engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the
engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron
work they are mounted upon the chassis of course.
And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And
the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts
for the fuel tanks?
And then all of this in a specially built building to
protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why
these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used
without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and
reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary
analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges
and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly
complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines.
But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the
camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by
8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those
unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a
football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your
average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of
these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in
fact.
Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly
burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of
the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb per square
foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A
claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone
fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after
being buried for so many years. That is it.
But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to
have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be
collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for
burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an
accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself
why you would bother.
If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the
problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a
claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying
effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got
to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat
did not burn the first time around but was required to be
reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the
reheating equipment of course.
Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat
in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat
and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any
BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not
have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the
eyewitnesses tell this story.
It is contrary to not only physical law but common
experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot
bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or
get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and
see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over.
A first order approximation of what is described to have happened
is quite easy.

So where would these stories be similar in major features?

As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would
know. “That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if
we don’t work hard enough or get sick.”
And why would people tell each other stories like this? I
really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost
stories around the campfire is such a popular tradtion. I simply
know the latter is.
But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story
they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening
features even though they are no more credible than the original
stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and
occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next
embellishes the already embellished previous story.
And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the
motivation to separate known fact from stories given that
sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least
challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term
starvation and the likliehood of protein deficit psychosis and
there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from
story.

So how could so many die so quickly?

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltynitchen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post anti-biotic world was
seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentary would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food stanards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations.
There is very little impartial secular history on these stories.
At this point one can only speculate as to why.
The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing
these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace
as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively
going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful.
Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting
that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening.
The “everyone knew” stories are to implicate the average
German citizen at the time. The “no one knew” stories are to
excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the
believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either
story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the
quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi.
As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories,
and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them
for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and
social nature to them. These stories help define the group
identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the
same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The
more family one has lost the more Jewish one is.
As to the insistance upon gassing, it makes the camps
expecte but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between a
hope for survival and certain doom.

Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than
reported?

Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz,
Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her
last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz
recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian
advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another
camp to the west where she died in another infirmary.
On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to
to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly
died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to
infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to
work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a
skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in
some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an
effort to save her life.
The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived
typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary.
This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they
were not able to select a future famous person for special
treatment.
Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were
in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the
diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close
living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that
happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a
few minor ones. This is wholely at odds with what is to be
expected under the reported conditions.

So what is your interest in all of this?

I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of
debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism,
religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse
among others. This is the “largest” or most publically
challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I
have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is
the same, my disreguard for personal feelings is the same, my
calling them as I see them attitude is the same.
And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others
is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one’s own
cherished beliefs. But the susceptability of such beliefs do not
change with either the subject or who holds the belief.
Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same
methods. The results of the application of those methods are the
same.


——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The WWII Hoax
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:37:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 5:41:41 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Just wait until I take on WW II and it defenders arise against my
>>fierce assualt upon it ever having occurred.

> Evidently Mr. Giwer was not reading the newsgroup when the challenge
>was issued to present the one or two best pieces of evidence to prove WWII
>occurred. Not one person was able to come up with anything that even came
>close.

Read what I said and compare it to that little challenge. In any
event there are already two of us to go after WW II. A little
teamwork never hurts.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:31 PDT 1996
Article: 35535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!news1.io.org!news2.interlog.com!news2.toronto.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 2)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:18:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:19:38 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35535 soc.history:5148

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>Question 4
>>>———-
>>
>>> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
>>> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:
>>
>>> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
>>> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
>>> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
>>> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
>>> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
>>> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
>>> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
>>> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
>>> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
>>> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
>>> lets wait for his commentary.
>>
>>> …
>>
>>> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
>>> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
>>> throw the rest away)
>>
>>> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how
>>> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
>>> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
>>> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
>>> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
>>> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
>>> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
>>> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
>>> explain.

>> As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the
>>flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the
>>Kremas.

>EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question.

Deal with those you deceived. Many people claim to have never
believed anything I have posted. They believed what you posted.
I suspect they will be feeling differently about you than about
me.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:32 PDT 1996
Article: 35544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:31:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >That’s a true, freedom-loving libertarian position if ever I heard
>: >one, Mr. Grynspan, but I’m not at all sure what this had to do with
>: >revisionism in the first place–it probably should have been on
>: >alt.jew-baiting or something–and it sure as hell isn’t on topic
>: >now. Take it to alt.totalitarian or something, huh?
>:
>: Unfortunately for your position, Alec has been respectfully
>: referred to as a professional Jew with apologies for any negative
>: implications for the phrase on other networks. You really need
>: to learn who you are posting to.

>Like Grynspan, Giwer assumed I was addressing the phrase “jew-baiting”
>at Grynspan. Careful readers will note that the phrase applies to
>the original thread. The phrase “totalitarian,” however, was a slap
>at Mr. Grynspan’s odious position on the summary execution of reporters
>in war zones.

He said no such thing.

>Again–I was not calling Alec Grynspan a jew baiter. It’s unfortunate
>that the art of critical reading has sunk to the point where this
>needs to be made explicit, but that’s the world we live in. Ah, well…

One critical reading right after another.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35545 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:30:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
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Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> Unfortunately for your position, Alec has been respectfully
>> referred to as a professional Jew with apologies for any negative
>> implications for the phrase on other networks. You really need
>> to learn who you are posting to.
>>

>I am hardly a professional Jew! That I leave to Dave Dahlman.

For you I said it was respectful.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:34 PDT 1996
Article: 35546 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:44:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:45:09 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>Perhaps because of direct visual testimonies? the SS: Hoess, Broad,
>>>Kremer, Bock, Hess,

>> Both Hoesses?

>The first Hoss is with an “umlaut” on the “o” and his first name is
>Rudolf, the habit is to add an “e” after the “o”. The second is
>Gerhard Hess, Frankfurt trial. You should give a look on some books.

>>Hoblinger, Morgen, Storch, Hofman, Wiebeck,
>>>Hofmann,.. Prisoners still alive after the war: physicians:
>>>Lettich, Bendel, Nyiszli, SK: Fejnsilber, Dragon, Tauber, Muller,
>>>Buki, the two Paisikowic, Rosenblum, Silberberg, Mandelbaum, .. Dead
>>>SK having buried their testimony: Herman, Gradowski, an anonymous,
>>>Lewenthal.

>> Perhaps of interest but we also have testimony of mass executions
>>by electrocution, steam and suffocation.

>You seem a bit confused with the Reinhard action. The thread is about
>Auschwitz-Birkenau. They were never testimonies about someone else
>HCN, Zyklon, or prussic acid (that’s the same in fact).

The question, as always, is the reliance upon testimony that is
so often clearly incredible.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35547 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:29:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:33:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>> of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>> I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>> in World War Two. But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>> much for me. How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>> this?

>Well, if one were _only_ to have heard about “rivers of fat” I would agree
>with you that it would indeed be an incredulous story. However, as Mr.
>Stein has pointed out, (oral) accounts tend to grow with the re-telling.
>Nonetheless, when one cuts through such stories there still remains the
>kernal of truth:

But then you repeat the same silly stories from second hand
sources.

>”…large pits were dug in the immediate vicinity od the gas chambers for
>the burning of the large number of corpses that the crematoria could not
>handle. ach pit was 40 to 50 meters long, 8 m wide, and 3 m deep. At the
>bottom of each pit, a chamnnel was dug in the center to make possible the
>’harvesting’ of the fat exuded from the burning corpses for reuse as fuel
>in the crematin process. At the height of the deportations from Hungary
>nine such pits were in operation, in addition to the crematoria….”
>(_Anantomy_, p. 463.)

Channel 130 to 160 feet long with just the precise slope to
collect it. And all dug by hand

>”…Eight pits were dug, each about four by sixty yards in size. On the
>bottom of each of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back
>into the fire with buckets to hasten the cremation…” (_The Destruction
>of the European Jews_, p.629.)

Human fat doesn’t burn the first time around.

>”…They [the Sonderkommandos] dragged the bodies from the gas chambers,
>removed the gold teeth, cut off the hair, then dragged the bodies to the
>pits or to the ovens. On top of that, they had to maintain the fires in
>the pits, pour off the accumulated fat, and poke holes into the burning
>mountains of bodies, so that oxygen could enter…” (_Death Dealer_,
>p.160.)

Fat doesn’t burn in these fires. And of course they pour it off
>from the channel in the bottom, sort of up-ending the pit.

>”In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining technical enterprise based in
>Krakow, was commisioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry
>out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of
>incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to
>3m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites.
>Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are
>reserved in the Conservation Department of the museum.” (_Anatomy_, p.
>179.)

“Traces” when there should have been tons as ashes.

>Now, to describe the fat running down the channels at the bottom of the
>incineration pits as “rivers of fat” would be, IMO, a bit of a stretch of
>the imagination, more of the taking of “literary licence” than factual
>reporting. But the fact remains that incineration pits _did_ exist and
>that fat _did_ run down the channels in these pits and was collected to be
>reused as fuel.

It is wholely incredible that it would not burn the first time
around.

But of course, like a believer in Noah’s Ark, there is no
impossibility that can not be explained away by faith and
ignorance.

But when the story suits …

Our favorite deceptive chemist wants some average around 20 lbs
of fat per person and of course 2 million bodies at Treblinka.
Is 40,000,000 lbs of fat a river? Ah, but I forgot. All signs
of Treblinka disappeared.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My psychic powers have failed!
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:56:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:59:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> > I have just received a psychic flash.
>>
>> > I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>> >has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>> >”Internet Indirect” in response to Mr. Giwer’s posted statement about
>> >”Internet Indirect.”
>>
>> > You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>> >but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn’t come
>> >true.
>>
>> Rather I would suggest that when I posted “indirect” the
>> respondant post “direct” as my evidence but then you folks are so
>> used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
>> to those who care to find the truth.

> Note that Mr. Giwer appears to be insinuating that Gordon McFee posted
>something different that what I quoted, and that I changed it. Yet
>despite his frequent repetition of the principle that the person making
>the claim bears the responsibility for providing proof, Mr. Giwer provides
>no proof that this has happened.

Even OBC forgot to play the game and posted direct rather than
indirect.

You folks have to organize your efforts better.

But as it is you have already muddied the waters on message
traffic enough that even the normal extreme difficult of proving
message content has been made an impossible task for any silly
threat of a lawsuit.

> I offer the following instructions to find the truth, from a source
>which as far as I know is completely independent of Nizkor or any poster
>here (no, I haven’t actually contacted them to check – if Mr. Giwer
>claims there is some influence, let him prove it):

> 1. Go to http://www.dejanews.com [used to be dejanews.dejanews.com]

> 2. Use the “Power search” option to filter for alt.revisionism
> and [email protected]

> 3. Set the match option to “Any”

> 4. Search for the two strings “internet direct” and “internet
> indirect” (be sure to put quotes around both strings).

> 5. Observe closely that in every post where Mr. Giwer said
> “Internet Direct,” Mr. McFee responded “Internet Direct.”
> In the one post where Mr. Giwer said “Internet Indirect,”
> Mr. McFee responded with the very same (incorrect) name
> “Internet Indirect.”

> Contrary to Mr. Giwer’s insinuation, a neutral archive has no record
>of Gordon McFee responding with a correct name to an incorrect one.

Then how did OBC manage to do it?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world1.bawave.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected]x.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:48:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:47:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> You are a college kid and complely incapable of judging me.

> Watch Giwer-the-not-at-all-omniscient as he posts using the power of
>his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> Give it up. Learn before you post.

> Watch him *try* to think with his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Derek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! Bunghole. Enough said.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35551 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news.fc.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!lexis-nexis!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:55:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:54:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>> The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will
>>not believe. The parts per billion were from the single data
>>point from a recent Polish report. However since it constitutes
>>only a single data point it is a useless number.

>CLEVER TROLL ALERT: Here Mr. Giwer performs one of his favorite tactics.
>He tells a lie to change the topic. If an honest person challenges the
>lie, Giwer succeeds in changing the topic. If someone does not
>challenge the lie in order to prevent Giwer from changing the topic, he
>gets away with telling a lie.

>Leuchter’s method did not discriminate against metal-cyanide complexes
>whose presence he cannot explain. The Crakow Report, which includes
>many individual measurements using a calibrated method, on the
>otherhand, did discriminate against such complexes.

But still produces only a single data point by its failure to
distinguish between once and never exposed. It further fails to
consider rodent control usage in a morgue and in failing to do so
presumes the sinister conclusion. Thus they created an “any
amount is proof” situation.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From mgiwe[email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35552 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: USS LIBERTY
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:46:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> < <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:50:02 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35552 alt.conspiracy:48008

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: >: [email protected]>
>: >: >Distribution:
>:
>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: >Silly Giwer. Your discussion is for kids. Israel’s location has long
>: >: >been a strategic gateway for access to other parts of the region.
>:
>: >: You are the one who knows what it is. Please demonstrate it. Or
>: >: are you talking about all of those land troop movements through
>: >: Israel in the Gulf War?
>:
>: >: In other words, you have not the slightest idea of military
>: >: strategy. All you do is parrot assertions that have heard many
>: >: times without understanding what was being said.
>:
>: >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>:
>: >Good choice, Mr. Giwer, the Persian Gulf War, especially since it’s not
>: >contiguous to Iraq and ISrael didn’t participate.
>:
>: >Tell you what; study the history of war in the Middle East, then come
>: >back and talk to me. Israel’s historic role as gateway for armies
>: >stomping around the Middle East has existed since before the Egyptians and
>: >Babylonians were snarling at each other.
>:
>: As I said, POST Wright Brothers. Welcome to the 20th century.

>Ahhhh…..That’s what you meant! You actually wrote “post the Wright
>Brothers.” I thought you wanted me to post something by the Wright
>Borthers, and I had no idea what that meant.

>Well, OK. Let’s start with World War I. The British saw it as the
>gateway, whch is how they wound up in control of it. Or do you assert
>that British took then-Palestine because of its strategic resources?

You are cute when you are playing stupid.

You are absolutely correct. The strategic importance of what is
now Israel DIED, ENDED, KAPUT only 20 years after the Wright
Brothers. I apologize for the error.

It has had no strategic significance in any cold war scenario any
more than Somalia.

It is a fantasy that presidents have to agree with for the
electoral votes of New York.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:14:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !THE UNAGIWER MANEFESTO
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:32:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:34:49 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Unlike money, good information drives out bad.

>It doesnt work that way in this medium as your FLOOD of bad information
>across the nets shows. You repeat the lies often enough and the weak of
>mind and black of heart suck it up.

>!The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any
>!venue other than competing information.

>Is that why you attacked and brought down my website? The only feather
>you have in your cap these days. What a slimey hypocrite you are.

I told the truth about your website, that it was libelous. And
of course I would never have done such a thing if you had not
FIRST initiated such tactics against my previous service
providers such as Charlen Kyle and Bill Blomgren and James
Kittrel. That is three in a row for you before I went after your
website.

I will not create a special section of my website dedicated to
pointing out your lies. I do not consider that a reasonable use
of my file space. And Alec has said he is in the process. And
since he appears to be new at it and I am not, he is going to get
a lot of free help in improving his about you.

>!It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information,
>!good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that
>!is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that “they have
>!done it to” the tribal “us” that makes them an immoral activity.

>Yeah, dem awful Jews hey Giwer, it always comes down to that doesnt it?

>!It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and
>!intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner
>!from the civilized population of the world. They are of the
>!”scruples are best served with garlic butter” camp. They would
>!eat them rather than have them.

>JEWS JEWS JEWS!

>!It is these animals who are eating their own case alive.

>JEWS JEWS JEWS!

>You slimeball.
>Great manifesto you wrote there pal… Gosh…
>JEWS JEWS JEWS…

And you refuse to admit that our first run in was over your
comments about Jews. Alec remembers. Whacked out Jews if I
recall correctly. And your defense was that your (whacked out)
wife and children were Jewish.

Yes, Dahlmen. You need help. If you can’t get it at Charter,
get it somewhere.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER-SLIMEY BIGOT
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:23:58 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 22:18:14 EDT, [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote and
>is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!The provider responded that Giwer was about to be bounced from Combase.
>!At about the same time, John Morris, who had also complained to Giwer’s
>!provider, posted that Giwer was about to get bounced.

>I understand why I am mostly ignored in here, people do not want to add
>to the flames — though when it is they who get lied about and libeled
>they sure fall into it without much reflection about their own hypocrisy
>in the matter. πŸ™‚

>I admit taking some preverted pleasure

No one has EVER said you were not perverted.

in watching this happen to McFee.
>It seems we all tend to judge the net flamers as EQUAL boneheads UNTIL
>we personally become the brunt of it, not realizing we have become what
>we claimed was a bonehead the day before. What Giwer and Grynspan have
>done to me is what Giwer is now doing to McFee.

You mean what was done was correct?

Perhaps he too, — 10
>years from now — will still be hearing the lies that he is a Marduk; a
>message forger, a criminal phone harasser who Giwer got fired, ect…
>On and on the lies will GO and GROW across nets and usegroups with the
>years, with others like Grynspan jumping in to help Giwer along with it.

>When I was first drawn in here because of Giwers crossposting, I
>suggested a way of dealing with him. Once again…

>First I want to be clear on the purpose of this newsgroup. It is indeed
>necessary for Nizkor and the many others here to refute the Revisionist
>and Deniers lies and corrupt facts. Its boring and hard work, but it has
>to be done, hats off to yall. I personally feel that the GIWER fight
>going on here over the past few months is not all that detremental to
>this Usegroup, and in fact, a bit of relief to the seriousness of the
>newsgroup charter.

>But there are special cases. By this time you know what Giwer is about
>and what his game is. He is an extreme right-wing, hate the goverment
>gungoon who hates Jews and wants to show off what he presumes is his
>intellectual superiority on matters of history and science, specifically
>chemistry. You want to get to him? Deny him that.

>Mr Morris today made his pronouncement to put Giwer in his Kill file.
>Good for him. Thats one option. The other is to not respond to any issue
>oriented message he posts, especially concerning chemistry. Either ignor
>those messages or respond with the WHYS of his revisionism and
>anti-Semitism rather than his word games and lies.

>Another point to help those not interested in reading the Giwergames.
>Change the subject to reflect that the message is about Giwer so other
>users can pass it by if they wish.

You obviously need to get rid or your radio and have that bad
tooth extracted.

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
> Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35144 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Giwer-troll strikes again
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:04:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:07:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>[more snip]
>>
>> And all of this when auto engine exhaust is just as deadly.

>[snip – text below is a requote from another post]

>>A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by
>>Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In the local lunatic asylum, a room
>>with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two
>>pipes were driven into the wall. A car was parked outside, and one of
>>the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of
>>the car to the pipe in the wall. The car engine was turned on and the
>>carbon monoxide began seeping into the room. After eight minutes, the
>>people in the room were still alive. A second car was connected to the
>>other pipe in the wall. The two cars were operated simultaneously, and
>>a few minutes later all those in the room were dead.
>>
>> [Note again the time frame is the same as Zyklon-B

> This claim has still not been supported. Mr. Giwer claims it is in
>the Auschwitz FAQ but he has not quoted the text which supports this
>claim, and I cannot seem to find it. As he has posted elsewhere, it is
>the responsibility of the one making the claim to support it.

Go to the story about the enterprising Fritsch and you will find
a time frame given, both a reasonable one or “gas ’em some more
the next day addendum.

> In addition, the testimony above is not completely clear as to whether
>there is an untimed additional interval between the conclusion of the
>eight minutes and the start of operation of the second car. I.e., does
>the “few minutes” start immediately after the end of the eight minutes of
>single-car operation? Or did it start with the ignition of the second
>car, even though it might have taken some unspecified amount of time to
>get the second car and hook it up? The text is somewhat ambiguous.

Can’t change the ambiguity. To me it indicates the author
doesn’t quite konw what he is describing, that he is responding
to a request for a story about gassing. That is why I subject
the words as best as possible physical laws which do not change.

>>and corroborates the eyewitness statement posted here.]

> As the Giwer-troll ought to know if he has the scientific knowledge he
>claims, concentration must be taken into account, and like must be
>compared to like.

At least I do not use what I know to deliberately deceive people.

In a small enough room, twelve minutes might indeed
>suffice for two autos to produce a sufficiently lethal atmosphere in the
>room. This says nothing about how long a normal concentration of Zyklon
>would have taken in the _same_ room. (One granule of Zyklon, of course,
>would have taken approximately forever.)

But as you know, although anything may happen in a sufficiently
small room, we are talking about Treblinka which another
eyewitness claims had a capacity of 1000 per hour and that then
entire process took one hour. So are left conclude a room or
rooms sufficiently large to deal with that throughput.

As for the concentration it can never become greater than that of
the exhaust itself thus we would have a basis for coming up with
that time if we have the volume for the building and for the
engine cylinders and assuming a reasonable RPM. In the ideal
world it would be a simple linear increase in the amount of
exhaust.

Or, on the other hand, we have the claim of the time from this
testimony which makes all of the time problems worse. Consider
even in suicide cases where the engine is inside the garage and
levels can get higher than the primary exhaust itself the
attempts are quite often unsucessful and from the news reports I
can remember they are often unsuccessful after hours. Of course
there are certainly many other factors involved.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:15:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:19:28 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19242 alt.discrimination:46543 alt.revisionism:35148 alt.skinheads:22029 can.politics:43057

[email protected] (David Reilley) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

>> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most
>>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life.

>McVay — now there’s a nice Jewish name!

You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New
York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus
on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication,
just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything
while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back
home who can’t think.

As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones
discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was
thinking about the person said “we were talking in temple” and
his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name.

But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their
pro-gassing posts with “I am not Jewish but …” and that is the
amen corner.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:54 PDT 1996
Article: 35157 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony and is value
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:15:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> Of course a defendent always has the opportunity to waive a jury
>> and have it heard on the facts by the judge. However, being
>> denied the opportunity for a jury trial in the matter of a felony
>> would certainly be grounds for overturning the conviction.

> Assuming your statement is correct (and it is not in most countries) you
>would still have to show a demand for a jury trial. Please do so.

There are primitive countries but I await your posting of Western
European countries where this is not a true statement.

>> As for Europe, it will be interesting to see which countries you
>> name outside of the ex-Soviet Union that does not mandate that as
>> a basic right, something about it in the UN rights document also
>> as I remember.

> France does not. Germany does not. Italy does not. Spain does not.
>Belgium does not. Poland does not. Austria does not. Monaco does not.
>Sweden does not. Denmark does not. The Netherlands do not. Switzerland does
>not. Luxembourg does not. Hungary does not. Roumania does not. Greece
>does not. Finland does not. Norway does not. In none of those countries is there
>a mandated basic right to a jury trial in criminal matters.

It is interesting to see your assertion of so many countries
acting contrary to the UN Declaration of Rights on the matter.
One has to wonder why there were so many signatories to the
declaration.

> –YFE

Yes, kilfile challenged one.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:55 PDT 1996
Article: 35166 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 03:26:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any
>>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations
>>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate
>>of outgassing.
>>
>> But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear
>>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be
>>such a minor task.

> Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not
>capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations?
>What is the point?

Quite to the contrary it would not be simply for me but also the
first time anyone has done such a think and it would be a great
contribution to the entire pro-holocaust position. In fact there
are enough technical issues in the subject that a toxicologist
and a chemist could certainly put together a very publishable
book on the subject.

That such a book does not exist is quite noteworthy by its
absense. It is certainly a gaping omission in what could
otherwise be much more complete story and one that people such as
I who have no interest in further conflicting eyewitness
testimony could be easily referred to.

And please do not tell me Pressac is one as what has been posted
>from his book is patently absurd.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 05:04:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 141
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:912 alt.revisionism:35198 alt.conspiracy:47537

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>What we have here is a first.

>Ingrid Rimland has previously said that she doesn’t understand all this
>complicated scientific stuff, and that she leaves it up to Ernst Zuendel
>to decide whether it’s all true or not. Actually, Ernst Zuendel makes
>the same claim about not understanding scientific stuff, which leaves it
>open as to which of them is actually making up whose mind.

>In any case, Ms. Rimland has now distributed pseudoscientific
>balderdash, masquerading as real science, to 6,000 people by her count.

>I am deliberately writing this refutation of that balderdash for a lay
>audience, so that she need not tune it out. I am sending it to her in
>email. She owes it to herself to read it.

>And she owes it to her readers to make them aware of it.

>I fear that both debts will go uncollected, but she is welcome to prove
>me wrong by providing me with her comments, and posting the URL to this
>article in her next Zgram:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01

>Ingrid Rimland ([email protected]) began by quoting one anonymous source:

>> Being an Engineering graduate, I believe that math never lies, but you
>> don’t have to be to understand the following logic (if you consider)
>> that one, roughly needs the heat energy of 300 Kg of coal to combust
>> one person. Multiply this by 6 Million (the persons in question) and
>> you get 1.8 Million Tons of coal-which is way above the capacities of
>> Germany during the war.

>This is a false conclusion based on a false premise. It does not
>require the heat energy of 300 kg of coal to burn a corpse; once the
>temperature is high enough, a corpse self-combusts. This provides more
>heat, which can be used to raise the temperature of the next corpse to
>the self-combustion point.

>What is self-combustion? Well, it takes a certain amount of heat energy
>to start a log burning, after which it burns by itself and actually
>gives off heat energy. It works the same way with meat, including human
>corpses. Once the temperature is high enough, flesh burns and gives off
>enough heat energy to continue the combustion process without any
>additional heat energy from a fuel source — coal or otherwise.

Spontanious human combustion, as it is called, is an extremely
rare phenomenon. It is so rare and so hard to explain that it
has been the subject material for folks like Charles Fort. And
even then, it has never been complete and has been limited to
severely obese people.

>Calculations by Rich Green, presented on this newsgroup, clearly
>demonstrate that at the temperatures used by the Nazi crematory ovens,
>the heat energy released by the burning tissue was more than sufficient
>to maintain the incineration and to evaporate the water in the body.
>(This article is emailed to Rich Green, who is invited to provide the
>calculations in a followup article. Since this article is for a lay
>audience, I won’t get too technical.)

You need to pay attention to what has been posted. The only
thing he has posted is me doing some trivial multiplication and I
added the energy of evaporation and he as yet to explain how he
is going to get that amount of energy out of 1/10 gm of organics.

>In fact, this is how the Nazi ovens were designed to work, starting with
>the Dachau ovens designed in 1937. (See Gutman, Yisrael, and Michael
>Berenbaum, Eds., _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, 1995, pp.
>183-186ff.) Once they were heated to the proper temperature, no
>additional fuel was required except the corpses themselves, and cool,
>fresh air which was blown through the oven, under pressure, to aid the
>combustion process.

Second hand sources again being of no value as at best this is an
opinion by non-engineers about a design. It is essential to have
the original design criteria from an original source to have
anything meaningful.

>Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism;
>this was a topic of discussion earlier this year. But alas, she has
>decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate.

Yes, as we are still awaiing Green to either eliminate it it or
add it to his potential list of three deliberate deceptions.

>> The question of time. One needs 2 hr. today with modern ovens to burn
>> one person and need to produce thousands of BTU ‘s of energy. Take
>> that 2 hr. and divide it by a day. This works out to 12 bodies
>> without time in between, even with 100 crematories (this is more than
>> existing sites today)

>Again, a false conclusion derived from a false premise.

>One needs two hours to burn a body today if one wishes to reduce the
>corpse to a fine, white ash suitable for presentation to the grieving
>family and friends.

>The Nazis were under no such obligation. They only needed to burn the
>body enough to reduce its mass significantly. Whether the large bones
>were reduced to a fine ash or not, they did not care. They pulled out
>the burnt remains and broke the largest bones into smaller pieces if
>necessary.

At least you were not deceived by Green with his bones don’t burn
routine. But the bones are hardly the heart of the issue.
Modern ones run at 1200 C while those ran at 800 C. Even adding
576 degrees for the absolute temperature, that is much greater
difference in heat transfer capacity than even the ratio of 1200
to 800 would represent.

And all of this handwaving is required to preserve a throughput
rate in support of gassing rather than of disease.

>Ms. Rimland would know this if she had been reading alt.revisionism;
>this was a topic of discussion earlier this year. But alas, she has
>decided that there is nothing on the newsgroup but mudslinging and hate.

You obviously have not read it.

>> Where would all that energy (have) come from to fuel these so-called
>> ovens?

>From the corpses themselves.

Perhaps you can explain how you can get enough heat out of 10% of
remaining organics to boil off the previous 90% of water. Please
feel free to do so.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:55:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> Followups to alt.revisionism only.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious
>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a
>>secular event.

> If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard
>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this
>possible violation of the law? If they act to change the situation, then
>they will thank you. If they do not act, then it will become clear that a
>religious organization can do this.

This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver
beavers. I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the
problem.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ignorance of the Law (Giwer’s, of course)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:23:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>> You might as well not waste your time. As with the last time you
>> posted they will deny ever having read it and go on as though
>> nothing was said. You should have noticed by now that these are
>> not honest people.

> When it is Giwer writng about the law it is best to ignore what is
>written. FRE 804(b)(2) makes certain statement *automatically* admissible.
>*Any* statement is admissible under FRE 804 (b)(5). Read the law, asshole.

Beenj there, done that, got the quote.

(2) Statement under belief of impending death. In a prosecution
for homicide or in a
civil action or proceeding, a statement made by a
declarant while believing that the
declarant’s death was imminent, concerning the cause or
circumstances of what the
declarant believed to be impending death.

What does the declarant’s statement about the cause of his
impending death have to do with the subject under discussion?

Are you sure you are not a paralegal?

Anyone interested can find it at the following URL.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/804.html

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How many deaths were there at Auschwitz?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:35:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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Greg Raven wrote:

>Robert Faurisson’s piece, “How many deaths were there at Auschwitz?”, is
>now available on my Web site.

>The URL is:

> http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/auschwitz_deaths.html

It is obviously anti-semitic to document such things.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:17:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:30:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Marty Kelley ([email protected]) wrote:

>: I thought you [Myshkin] disliked polls and that “soft science” stuff.

>Hey, he *loves* that “soft science” stuff. Isn’t he fond of telling us
>about his IQ of 163? And when he does, it’s the *hard science* part
>that he can’t grasp (i.e. the difference between a raw score and a
>scaled score, and what a standard deviation is).

Where were you during the bone burning deception by your fellow
chemist?

Where were you during the HCN being produced by the Krema fires
deception by your fellow chemist?

Are you another of those undergraduates implying department
membership?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 00:57:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Sat, 04 May 1996 02:08:08 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>What crap you anti-Semites work with this issue. It was a mistake, an
>!>awful mistake, we all know it was a mistake because there would be no
>!>motive AT ALL for bombing a UN refugee hospital. A 300 meter long
>!>range artillery mistake.

>!After they were told on the telephone that it was a refugee camp,
>!it was a mistake?

>What crap word games you play you slimey bigot.

>!After they carefully targeted the camp it was a mistake?

>What crap word games you play you scummy anti-Semite.

Tell it to the man in charge of the UN camp. I simply repeat
what he said.

>!>None of the attacks on Isrealies are MISTAKES.
>!>Neither was the Holocaust Giwer…
>!>It was a PLANNED EXTERMINATION USING GAS.
>!>Got it? Good…

>!Been listening to me on the radio again?

>Look at yourself pal. You deny the Nazis had a plan to exterminate the
>Jews, you deny the Nazis ever gassed any Jews, you deny that 6 million
>Jews died in the Holocaust, you deny there were gas chambers, you call
>those who believe those things “holohuggers” who are “all a bunch of
>liars”, and now you wish us to believe Isreal purposely attacked a UN
>refugee field hospital.

>Yer a real yuck pal…
>And then you have a tizzy fit and threaten law suits when anyone calls
>you an anti-Semite. A real yuck….

>BTW, why did the Jews want to blow up a UN refugee camp and kill a
>hundred people for the world press?
>I have my finger on the SAVE KEY here waiting for the answer Giwer.

You have a save key? That was the Atari 800 wasn’t it?

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
> Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996

What you really need to do is have those teeth extracted and get
rid of the radio.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:01 PDT 1996
Article: 35319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:29:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>> Auschwitz?

>GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and
>instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was
>already answered in my origional post! To whit:

>…Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn):

> The defendants would compromise “a large number of individuals and
> officials who were in authority in the government, in the military
> establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial,
> industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards
> are provable to be common criminals.” The charges against them would be:
>
> (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting
> violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs
> of land and naval warfare…..

> (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on
> racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to
> recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed
> in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part
> of the International Law at least since 1907….*

>…In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the
>Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land
>(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty,
>concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the
>annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233)
>are:

> Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed
> into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his
> power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
> while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the
> country.

> Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied
> territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.

> Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and
> private property, as well as religious convictions and practice,
> must be respected.

> Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

> Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be
> inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals
> for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible.

>Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the
>bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing
>to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory
>_prior_ to the violations that were committed.

>> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
>> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>> justice.

>REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality.
>It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably
>has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the
>best he can do!

You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in
your response, idiot.

>posted-e-mailed to Matt “I like pig-shit!” Giwer

Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this
conference in famous. It is based upon the ancient history that
commercial providers charge by the email. Many children still
believe that is true.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:02 PDT 1996
Article: 35352 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>tom moran wrote:

>>># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
>>># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
>>># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
>>># The results were next to nothing.

>>>I guess that’s the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>>>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>>>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>>>never said?

>>>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>>>in Treblinka.

>> You still haven’t looked up the two trials of Hoess on
>>indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one
>>he was acquitted of.

>> You folks won’t believe it if I tell you.

>I don’t know that anyone will, Mr. Giwer. You track record with the
>truth is, well, awful.

That is why I want a true holohugger to find and post the
information as if I do so, that truth will also be denounced as a
lie simply because it does not fit the legends.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:03 PDT 1996
Article: 35353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:07:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:12:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35353 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19338 alt.discrimination:46586 alt.skinheads:22188 can.politics:43322

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>Gregory Taylor ([email protected]) writes:

> You are either monumentally naive if you actually believe that,
> or malicious beyond compare if you think that my family
> “deserves” what you know they will be subjected to.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) intrudes his ignorance:

> Your family, yes, unto the seventh generation isn’t it?

>Yes, God, in the Scriptures, does reserve the right to punish
>families “unto the seventh generation,” but only God has that right.

> Very Jewish.

>Not in the least! This is very Giwer, to misinterpret the Scriptures
>and blame it on the Jews!

Perhaps you would care to explain it?

> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>–Matt “I said it, but I will blame you for it!” Giwer

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>When Mr. Giwer is around, all truth needs protection.

Do you wear a superhero costume while you are defending the truth
>from me?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:03 PDT 1996
Article: 35368 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what is a troll?
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:10:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:11:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alexander Baron wrote:

>What exactly is a troll? Somebody once told me what a spam is but I’m not sure
>I understand that either.

Troll is an ancient yuletide charole.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 02:45:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 9:48:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

> Repost.

> “Fears Rise Over Nazi Weapons Leaking at Bottom of the Baltic”
> Los Angeles Times, July 18, 1992

> “Tons of chemical weapons dumped by
> the Allies after World War II,
> have nudged the sea to the brink of
> catastrophe, scientists say.”

> “By tossing 300,000 tons of ready – to – fire weapons – enough
>to to kill the entire population of Europe … The 300,000 tons of
>chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea’s greenish brown
>waters contain enough active gases to kill 800 million people …”

> Interesting connotations. The Germans had all these chemical
>weapons, but did not use them, even when they were on the brink, and
>here we have the actions of the Allies threatening to accomplish what
>the Nazis refrained from doing.

> One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone
>B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely
>had? Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid
>carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there.
>’Oh look Commoissar, heres a empty can of pesticide.’

I get the impression it is like the search for a big enough room
to gas so many people so quickly, that Zykon B was tortured into
the role. Of course if I could find evidence of the publication
of Hoess’s purported memoirs before 1959 that might put a
different light upon it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L’il Tommy: Wrong Again (nu?)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 21:31:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 4:35:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> I asked months ago where the warehouses full of physical evidence
>> were stored and the best I got in response was “Are you saying
>> there are not warehouses full of evidence?” Would you like to
>> answer the question?
>>

> Sure, asshole. In the record of the proceedings. Have you read them?

No physical evidence then?

>> > If it was not done at the time, how do you explain the report of Charles
>> >Larson, M.D. a forensic pathologist.
>>
>> If you are referring to what was posted here, that was hearsay
>> unless he was working for the SS during the war.

> No it was the report of an expert. Show us your ignorance of the law
>again, asshole. Tell me that an expert cannot use hearsay to form his
>conclusions.

He was not there to witness what he talked talked about. There
was no conclusion. There was a description of what happened. It
is hearsay.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35409 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:13:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:17:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19361 alt.discrimination:46591 alt.revisionism:35409 alt.skinheads:22223 can.politics:43362

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: com> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (David Reilley) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>:
>: >>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>: >>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>: >>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>: >>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)
>:
>:
>: >> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most
>: >>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life.
>:
>: >McVay — now there’s a nice Jewish name!
>:
>: You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New
>: York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus
>: on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication,
>: just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything
>: while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back
>: home who can’t think.

>Ha! Ha! Ha! You, apparently, read things into the news that no one else
>does. Apparently, you’re the only one who can’t think.

>Nice dodge, by the way. YOu didn’t say Mr. McVay gives the “amen Corner”
>a bad name; you said he gives “Jews” a bad name. Loser! Another error
>for the Giwer book………

Does not even the Talmud comment upon the people with whom one
associates?

>: As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones
>: discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was
>: thinking about the person said “we were talking in temple” and
>: his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name.

>Yes, but there are names that give strong hints they aren’t “Jewish.”
>McVay sounds awfully Irish to me, and I’m very familiar with the Jewish
>population of Ireland — not vry big, so the odds of McVay being one ar
>pretty damned small.

>Besides, why argue this, if you )according to the above) meant the “amen
>corner,” not that McVay was Jewish?

>Get it straight, Mr. Happy.
>:

>: But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their
>: pro-gassing posts with “I am not Jewish but …” and that is the
>: amen corner.

>Well, then by your logic that would make you Part of the “Sig Heil”
>corner. Since we agree that you are, let ,e point out that you give the
>”Sig Heil” corner no worse name than they already have………

I have declined to respond to the “are you a nazi” questions
precisely because that is how a denial would have been used by
you folks.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35425 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:10:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 7:10:06 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># Sorry about your stupidity, no one who has EVER seen a diesel
># powered bus is going to believe your fabrications.

>Sigh. If you could only read English, we could make some progress here.

>I didn’t write the Pattle et. al. paper about the experiments with the
>diesel fumes. They did.

>The largest amount of white smoke was present under condition D,
>that is, the engine running without load, and with a fuel-air ratio
>intentionally set to higher than the usual ratio. This resulted
>in fumes which were more lethal than under other running conditions,
>and therefore it is certainly possible that the SS, for some time,
>ran the engines connected to the gas chambers under conditions
>similar to D.

>Obviously, a bus isn’t run under such conditions; there is a load,
>and the fuel-air ratio is correct.

>The bottom line is that diesels can produce white smoke. This
>was proved in the Pattle et. al. experiments.

You appear to be describing a condition in which the mixture was
so rich that the oil was pumped through completely unburned and
appeared out the exhaust as a hot aerosol. In that case you
would have these buildings saturated with oil quite quickly,
making them major fire hazards. One spark from those trains and
the entire complex would be up in flames.

It is unclear how the place could have survived for so long under
these hazardous conditions.

And in this case you would not be talking about death by
poisoning but by suffocation brought about by oil coated lungs.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:29:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:30:59 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Mon, 06 May 1996 09:58:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!> Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your
>!> lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then
>!> squawk like the little piggies you are about it.
>!
>!You always do have to try to pull down those who are more intelligent
>!than you, don’t you?

>So whats yer IQ again Alec. I forget, wasnt it off the scale or
>something? Yeah, yer a real friggin genious pal… πŸ™‚

>How did SOAPBOX ROCK end Alec? You and your gang of creeps banned seven
>people,

They were all you.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:47:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:46:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> And I am certainly Miss Laura can speak for herself without your
>>help. Are you trying to pick up the women here?

> Well, I can see why Giwer has such a reputation – he accuses someone
>of being a “college kid” (implying immaturity and lack of experience), then
>sneers at someone in a manner of an insecure teenager.

I was merely highlighting again the holohugger/amen corner
tendency to jump in and speaking for those with their same
mindset. I happened to read two messages in a row where you were
speaking for women.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:40:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:44:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28036 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19380 alt.discrimination:46596 alt.revisionism:35456 alt.skinheads:22257

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>>phone calls. And he still thinks I work for IBM. Poor frightened
>>delusional old Giwer-troll.

>Moved over from Internet Direct, eh?

>–
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

Fascinating that someone remembers the difference between direct
and indirect despite the denials and changed messages posted
here.

But of course, someone will change your post and swear to it.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer continues to hog this site.
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:45:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:48:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Over 450 posts, many new ones, on a great variety of topics and
>subject matter. Just take a peek at Giwers number of posts. And to
>make matters worse, you have to read the crap to get rid of it. He
>babbles on and on about everything, contending that his superior IQ of
>20-30 something gives him some kind of an edge. If the man would just
>deal with the subject at hand, this could be an interesting site for
>intelligent discussions. Matt Giwer prevents that from happening and
>he loves every minute of it. Ever see a dog roll around in the grass
>on another dogs droppings? That dog loves to rub dog shit all over his
>body and this behavior reminds me of Matt Giwer. It’s illogical,
>stinks up the place, and the smelly dog ends up sleeping in the cold
>as a result of this natural impulse to smear doggie doo doo on his own
>body. Giwers sure reminds me of my dog, an ugly mutt, no brains,
>useless won’t even bark at burglars, just takes up space, and sheds
>hair all over the carpet. Needs to be loved though, in spite of the
>problems he creates. He’s old, some day soon the Vet will tell us it’s
>time, and bye bye pooch. Then all I’ll have is old Matt Giwer, rolling
>around in doo doo, smelling up the place, taking up too much space,
>contributing nothing to make society better. Pathetic!!! πŸ˜‰
>Chuck Ferree

Hey, nerfbrain (a harmless imitation of the real thing), how can
I be hogging a group that will expand to fit the message traffic?
Try the warez group for ibm binaries and see how bit a site can
really be.

But you were a ranking officer? translator? pilot? ranking
officer staff? on that trip to A-B?

It is no secret today that more people were in Vietnam combat
than the Army has any record of. WW II heros are no less
plentiful. Got a real name, rank and serial number for us?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:10 PDT 1996
Article: 35467 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:01:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Um… Giwer? Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but Ken isn’t Jewish.
>Neither is Jamie, and neither am I.

>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html

Called the amen corner the last I heard. I have never stated
there was only one component to this phenomenon.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35521 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 02:25:00 GMT
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: >: du> <[email protected]>
>: >: >:
>: >: >: <[email protected]>
>: >: >:
>: >: >: <[email protected]> Distribution:
>:
>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: >: >: Lets see. There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through
>: >: >: the streets after annexation. Therefore Austrians enthusiastically
>: >: >: embraced annexation.
>:
>: >: >: There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last
>: >: >: visit. Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton.
>:
>: >: >: It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn
>: >: >: out an enthusiastic crowd.
>:
>: >: >: However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that
>: >: >: such crowds are spontanious. When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he
>: >: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a
>: >: >: cheering crowd first.
>:
>: >: >: Of course, that is revisionism. Austrian crowds were different from
>: >: >: all other political crowds in the world. I understand the dogma.
>:
>: >: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218: Don’t actually say
>: >: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler
>: >: >enthusiastically). Instead, just point out why the evidence presented
>: >: >doesn’t meet your personal standards. Provide no evidence for this,
>: >: >either, other than your opinion of what’s logical.
>:
>: >: Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques.
>: >: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of
>: >: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything.
>: >: But let me remark that I find you “standard of proof” rather in
>: >: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous.
>:
>: >Not even necessary — I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if
>: >you can find anywhere I said that, I’ll send you 10 bucks.
>:
>: The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption
>: in your posts.

>Chicken. Just like I thought. You like to make accusations, but you
>can’t back them up, so you turn tail and run. Bawk.

Do you not realize how old hat this “betting” thing is on the
nets?

>: >Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm? I would say yes.
>:
>: Right! And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along
>: the route pouring freely. It was not invented in Austria.

>Source, please?

The earliest reference I have come across to it was Chicago
machine politics from the 20s but then it was speakeasies. You
have never heard of using alcohol for politics? They even cheer
louder.

>: Do they prove
>: >EVERYONE is enthusiastic? of course not. But your counter-example is
>: >interesting — if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for
>: >Clinton’s visit to Tampa, I would say “Tampa greeted Clinton
>: >enthusiastically.”
>:
>: Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be
>: saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera
>: that you saw a staged political rally as they all are. Even
>: honest journalists would only photograph the action.

>well, I was in DC for the inauguration (I lived there at the time) and by
>golly, there was a huge outpouring of enthusiasm. And you know what? No
>free anything at the inauguration route. You had to go to the parties
>later for food and such, and those weren’t free.

In inaugrations, as you are attempting to confuse this with, they
were the party activists that came to be invited to the
celebration and paid to cover the cost of the celebration. Or
did you show up to cheer? I lived there for 25 years. I never
did know a local who showed up to cheer. Were you the exception
I should have known?

>: >More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting
>: >Hitler enthusiastically. You’ve given some half-assed, unsupported
>: >assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that’s enough.
>:
>: Now I am supposed to prove a negative? Very creationist of you.

>It’s creationist to want proof of an assertion? How anti-standards of
>you. This explains why you never provide support for anything you say.
>YOu asserted it, but now you can’t prove it. Bawk.

You will note your words are “disproves Austria” etc. How am I
supposed to disprove? Am I to take you literally and note that
only Austrians can greet? You appear to have a serious cognitive
problem.

But now that we are down to only people can greet then we also
accept that not all of Austria was lining the streets. (Of
course you can demand I prove they were not.)

After we are down to some then we know there were many members of
the Nazi Party in Austria so we have a ready made crowd. If they
needed more you simply give them something in return just like
party workers drive people to polling booths today and swing by a
MacDonalds or some such to “obligate” them to the party of the
driver.

Are you really as naive as you sound or was there some point to
your pretending?

>: >: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of
>: >”ordinary
>: >: >: >> >citizens'” complicity in other atrocities–in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia,
>: >: >: >> >Armenia, etc.–as part of his argument that “ordinary Germans” were
>: >: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust.
>: >: >: >>
>: >: >: >> I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and
>: >: >: >> killing them. When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of
>: >: >: >> this comparison?
>:
>: >: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually–although in Germany, millions stood
>: >: >: >silently by and let it happen.
>:
>: >: >: So you are in the “everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the
>: >: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening” camp. Very good.
>: >: >: I will try to remember that.
>:
>: >: >Ooooh, he’s a “Neo-Nizkorite” or whatever it was he called someone. He’s
>: >: >keeping a “mental file” — the difference between him and Nizkor is that
>: >: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate.
>:
>: >: But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with
>: >: the intent to deceive.
>:
>: >Nope. You’ve got no proof of that, because it didn’t happen. Someday
>: >you’ll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no
>: >evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole.
>:
>: Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very
>: creationist.

>How odd — Matt Giwerhas a new epithet of the day when he’s doging backing
>up his statements — “creationist.” Mr. Giwer, if you have no support for
>your assertions, positive or negative, then you’re just blowing smoke.
>Troll.

I clearly have the eyewitness testimony contrary to each other
and physical law as evidence. That you folks believe so strongly
that you explain it all away, much as a creationist explains away
the impossibilities of the Flood and as convincingly, is only
convincing to your fellow believers.

Witness the “explanation” that diesel engine exhaust looks white.
And I have yet to dump on the boy that steam is invisible after
it expands. Yet he BELIEVES it.

> : >: >: Here’s the passage from Goldhagen : >: >: >I was thinking
>of: :
>: >: >: >”No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is
>: >: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its
>: >: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . .
>: >: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of
>: >: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their
>: >: >: >victims deserved to die? Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered
>: >: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one
>: >: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another,
>: >: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of
>: >: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the
>: >: >: >same for the German perpetrators?” (pp. 14-15).
>:
>: >: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass
>: >: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination
>: >: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government’s actions
>: >: >: >against Jews. He is particularly critical of the idea that German
>: >: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians
>: >: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate.
>:
>: >: >: So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is
>: >: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people. It is not a very subtle
>: >: >: propaganda technique. I would have expected you to notice it.
>:
>: >: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you
>: >: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen’s methods. Do you alweays decide
>: >: >before seeing any actual facts?
>:
>: >: If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the
>: >: point to the discussion?
>:
>: >Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask
>: >again: Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts?
>:
>: I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon
>: the book as a whole. As you know that is true, what is the point
>: of your question?

>WHoops, it’s the Matt Giwer “opposite time” again. Of course I don’t
>”know” that is true, because it isn’t. You’ve commented on parts from
>all over the whole damn
>book, and you haven’t read anything in it.

>That’s called “distortion” and “intellectual dishonesty,” words I think
>must be on your family crest.

That things from all over the book were posted here and that I
commented upon them is true. It is also true that those same
things were defended by people who had not read the book. When
was the rule passed that only one side had to read the book
before commenting?

>: >: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>:
>: >: >: What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>:
>: >: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book’s methodolgy without even reading it?
>:
>: >: You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you
>: >: start talking about someone doing it. If you knew what that
>: >: meant you would know I have not. If you had been following the
>: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: >: book does not contain the methodology.
>:
>: >The book does not contain “the” methodology? Interesting accusation.
>:
>: Go back and read.

>I did. Try again, with feeling this time.

With feeling this time.

>: If you had been following the
>: >: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: >: book does not contain the methodology.
>:
>: Notice “ANOTHER PERSON” in the statement? Another person made
>: the accusation, not me.

>Aha! The newest Giwer technique: “someone else said it, not me.”
>We’re still waiting on about 3 other places where you’ve made this
>allegation.

Correcting the false statements of holohuggers is a very old
technique of mine.

>: >Sometime you will have to explain what “the” methodology is.
>: >But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which
>: >to summarize its methodology. which makes you a troll just starved for
>: >attention.
>:
>: When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>MAn, you still haven’t figured out what’s happened, have you?

Quite a schoolboy response.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:12 PDT 1996
Article: 35522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A little Q&A on the holocaust
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 10:11:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 398
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:14:48 AM CDT 1996
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What was the holocaust?
First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million
people went into concentration and work camps and about a million
emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared.
Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is
where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have
not been critically reviewed.
The question is, why would people lie about what
happened to them? There are many likely answers to that
question.

o Motivation
Plain and simple revenge against the people who had
imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely
shameful manner.
o Mistaken
In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most
erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors
as the truth is certainly to have been expected.
o Physical condition
Although there is question as to the physical
conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then
these people were on the point of starvation and that common
induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term.

Certainly there are other possible explanations for false
information to have been generated but these three are sufficient
to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these
statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as
true without physical evidence.

What was the plan for the Holocaust?

Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is
the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level
official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it
discusses two plans, before and after the conference.
The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to
change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This
is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that
addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note.
The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be
moved out of Europe. The is referred to as “to the east” and by
the curious word “emigrated” in the common translation. No death
camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe,
certainly a violation of human rights but that is it.
After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister.
The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death
by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a
deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only.
In between the description of these two plans there is what
appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well
in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have
required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at
that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than
for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan.
But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention
whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to
death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65
to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar
provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I.
The conclusion of course is that although this document is
often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned
to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That
plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late
1941.

What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the
information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these
witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories
that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and
otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best.
Additionally the most common witness testimony used to
support these stories is only from the prosecution without
indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It
is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases.
One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that
contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered
credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were
killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks
when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in
discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in
testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing
causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as
turning off the gravity.

What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the
deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that
millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work
camps and that very few survived. But what little physical
evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being
force fit into a preconceived conclusion.
For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at
Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that
had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the
reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is
to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to
perform this function. This effort has problems right from the
start.
First we note that it is partially underground and that the
walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note
that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same
compound there are two other buildings without the construction.
They use simple peaked roofs which are cheaper to construct.
Although the partially underground construction can be
explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use
as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it
makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the
more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas
chamber.
Other possible design features include an air-tight door
(found 200 feet away), a ventilation system, and either two or
four small holes in the roof. The second two are potential in
that there exists at the moment exactly one conceptual drawing
that is not a blueprint and the blower that drove the ventilation
system has not been found so we have only a general idea of its
capacity.
Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to
a gas chamber have always asked, “What else could it be?” when in
fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most
obvious is a bomb shelter.
There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the
compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping
the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls
exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of
course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin
your whole day.
But in addition to structural damage protection there is
damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would
protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage
eardrums. And thus the air-tight door to keep that pressure wave
out of the building.
Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed
air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust
for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal
as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing
creatures.
The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know
what design features of large scale gas chamber would be.
Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the
subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such
textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the
first and only large scale gas chambers in the world.
Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting
an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged
to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial.
Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or
experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how
developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and
incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of
a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people.
But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are
being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual
drawing that is an a gas chamber. The clear admission is that
they are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want
it to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses.
And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of
another purpose, that of a bomb shelter.
Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter
hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a
morgue in its primary fuction and gained a secondary purpose by
the modifications in its construction.
Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three
structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp.
Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the
evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still
there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed.
Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be
of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter.

* * * * *

Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although
the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is
officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at
Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a
space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for
its lesser number.
The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to
have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by
being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony
to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not
mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not
believe in those methods any longer.
Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest
of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down
every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found
today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind.
At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is
the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon
monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony
regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame
as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly
nor did they have the same release mechanisms.
Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but
what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them.
Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that
would have been needed to make them work. For example, the
engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the
engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the
engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron
work they are mounted upon the chassis of course.
And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And
the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts
for the fuel tanks?
And then all of this in a specially built building to
protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why
these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used
without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and
reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary
analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges
and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly
complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines.
But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the
camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by
8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those
unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a
football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your
average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of
these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in
fact.
Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly
burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of
the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb per square
foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A
claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone
fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after
being buried for so many years. That is it.
But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to
have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be
collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for
burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an
accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself
why you would bother.
If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the
problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a
claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying
effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got
to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat
did not burn the first time around but was required to be
reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the
reheating equipment of course.
Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat
in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat
and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any
BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not
have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the
eyewitnesses tell this story.
It is contrary to not only physical law but common
experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot
bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or
get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and
see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over.
A first order approximation of what is described to have happened
is quite easy.

So where would these stories be similar in major features?

As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would
know. “That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if
we don’t work hard enough or get sick.”
And why would people tell each other stories like this? I
really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost
stories around the campfire is such a popular tradtion. I simply
know the latter is.
But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story
they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening
features even though they are no more credible than the original
stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and
occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next
embellishes the already embellished previous story.
And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the
motivation to separate known fact from stories given that
sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least
challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term
starvation and the likliehood of protein deficit psychosis and
there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from
story.

So how could so many die so quickly?

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltynitchen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post anti-biotic world was
seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentary would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food stanards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations.
There is very little impartial secular history on these stories.
At this point one can only speculate as to why.
The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing
these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace
as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively
going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful.
Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting
that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening.
The “everyone knew” stories are to implicate the average
German citizen at the time. The “no one knew” stories are to
excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the
believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either
story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the
quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi.
As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories,
and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them
for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and
social nature to them. These stories help define the group
identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the
same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The
more family one has lost the more Jewish one is.
As to the insistance upon gassing, it makes the camps
expecte but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between a
hope for survival and certain doom.

Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than
reported?

Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz,
Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her
last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz
recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian
advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another
camp to the west where she died in another infirmary.
On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to
to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly
died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to
infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to
work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a
skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in
some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an
effort to save her life.
The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived
typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary.
This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they
were not able to select a future famous person for special
treatment.
Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were
in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the
diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close
living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that
happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a
few minor ones. This is wholely at odds with what is to be
expected under the reported conditions.

So what is your interest in all of this?

I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of
debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism,
religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse
among others. This is the “largest” or most publically
challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I
have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is
the same, my disreguard for personal feelings is the same, my
calling them as I see them attitude is the same.
And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others
is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one’s own
cherished beliefs. But the susceptability of such beliefs do not
change with either the subject or who holds the belief.
Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same
methods. The results of the application of those methods are the
same.


——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!news1.io.org!news2.interlog.com!news2.toronto.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 2)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 04:18:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 11:19:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35535 soc.history:5148

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>Question 4
>>>———-
>>
>>> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
>>> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:
>>
>>> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
>>> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
>>> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
>>> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
>>> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
>>> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
>>> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
>>> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
>>> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
>>> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
>>> lets wait for his commentary.
>>
>>> …
>>
>>> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
>>> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
>>> throw the rest away)
>>
>>> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how
>>> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
>>> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
>>> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
>>> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
>>> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
>>> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
>>> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
>>> explain.

>> As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the
>>flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the
>>Kremas.

>EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question.

Deal with those you deceived. Many people claim to have never
believed anything I have posted. They believed what you posted.
I suspect they will be feeling differently about you than about
me.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:14 PDT 1996
Article: 35548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My psychic powers have failed!
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 06:56:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 1:59:08 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> > I have just received a psychic flash.
>>
>> > I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>> >has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>> >”Internet Indirect” in response to Mr. Giwer’s posted statement about
>> >”Internet Indirect.”
>>
>> > You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>> >but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn’t come
>> >true.
>>
>> Rather I would suggest that when I posted “indirect” the
>> respondant post “direct” as my evidence but then you folks are so
>> used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
>> to those who care to find the truth.

> Note that Mr. Giwer appears to be insinuating that Gordon McFee posted
>something different that what I quoted, and that I changed it. Yet
>despite his frequent repetition of the principle that the person making
>the claim bears the responsibility for providing proof, Mr. Giwer provides
>no proof that this has happened.

Even OBC forgot to play the game and posted direct rather than
indirect.

You folks have to organize your efforts better.

But as it is you have already muddied the waters on message
traffic enough that even the normal extreme difficult of proving
message content has been made an impossible task for any silly
threat of a lawsuit.

> I offer the following instructions to find the truth, from a source
>which as far as I know is completely independent of Nizkor or any poster
>here (no, I haven’t actually contacted them to check – if Mr. Giwer
>claims there is some influence, let him prove it):

> 1. Go to http://www.dejanews.com [used to be dejanews.dejanews.com]

> 2. Use the “Power search” option to filter for alt.revisionism
> and [email protected]

> 3. Set the match option to “Any”

> 4. Search for the two strings “internet direct” and “internet
> indirect” (be sure to put quotes around both strings).

> 5. Observe closely that in every post where Mr. Giwer said
> “Internet Direct,” Mr. McFee responded “Internet Direct.”
> In the one post where Mr. Giwer said “Internet Indirect,”
> Mr. McFee responded with the very same (incorrect) name
> “Internet Indirect.”

> Contrary to Mr. Giwer’s insinuation, a neutral archive has no record
>of Gordon McFee responding with a correct name to an incorrect one.

Then how did OBC manage to do it?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:15 PDT 1996
Article: 35549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world1.bawave.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 03:48:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 10:47:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> You are a college kid and complely incapable of judging me.

> Watch Giwer-the-not-at-all-omniscient as he posts using the power of
>his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> Give it up. Learn before you post.

> Watch him *try* to think with his bunghole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Derek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! Bunghole. Enough said.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:16 PDT 1996
Article: 35551 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news.fc.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!lexis-nexis!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!coconut!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 20:55:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-14.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:54:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>> The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will
>>not believe. The parts per billion were from the single data
>>point from a recent Polish report. However since it constitutes
>>only a single data point it is a useless number.

>CLEVER TROLL ALERT: Here Mr. Giwer performs one of his favorite tactics.
>He tells a lie to change the topic. If an honest person challenges the
>lie, Giwer succeeds in changing the topic. If someone does not
>challenge the lie in order to prevent Giwer from changing the topic, he
>gets away with telling a lie.

>Leuchter’s method did not discriminate against metal-cyanide complexes
>whose presence he cannot explain. The Crakow Report, which includes
>many individual measurements using a calibrated method, on the
>otherhand, did discriminate against such complexes.

But still produces only a single data point by its failure to
distinguish between once and never exposed. It further fails to
consider rodent control usage in a morgue and in failing to do so
presumes the sinister conclusion. Thus they created an “any
amount is proof” situation.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:16 PDT 1996
Article: 35554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !THE UNAGIWER MANEFESTO
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:32:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:34:49 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Unlike money, good information drives out bad.

>It doesnt work that way in this medium as your FLOOD of bad information
>across the nets shows. You repeat the lies often enough and the weak of
>mind and black of heart suck it up.

>!The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any
>!venue other than competing information.

>Is that why you attacked and brought down my website? The only feather
>you have in your cap these days. What a slimey hypocrite you are.

I told the truth about your website, that it was libelous. And
of course I would never have done such a thing if you had not
FIRST initiated such tactics against my previous service
providers such as Charlen Kyle and Bill Blomgren and James
Kittrel. That is three in a row for you before I went after your
website.

I will not create a special section of my website dedicated to
pointing out your lies. I do not consider that a reasonable use
of my file space. And Alec has said he is in the process. And
since he appears to be new at it and I am not, he is going to get
a lot of free help in improving his about you.

>!It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information,
>!good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that
>!is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that “they have
>!done it to” the tribal “us” that makes them an immoral activity.

>Yeah, dem awful Jews hey Giwer, it always comes down to that doesnt it?

>!It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and
>!intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner
>!from the civilized population of the world. They are of the
>!”scruples are best served with garlic butter” camp. They would
>!eat them rather than have them.

>JEWS JEWS JEWS!

>!It is these animals who are eating their own case alive.

>JEWS JEWS JEWS!

>You slimeball.
>Great manifesto you wrote there pal… Gosh…
>JEWS JEWS JEWS…

And you refuse to admit that our first run in was over your
comments about Jews. Alec remembers. Whacked out Jews if I
recall correctly. And your defense was that your (whacked out)
wife and children were Jewish.

Yes, Dahlmen. You need help. If you can’t get it at Charter,
get it somewhere.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:17 PDT 1996
Article: 35654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 2)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:46:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 236
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:49:12 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35654 soc.history:5152

[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>”He who makes a claim bears the responsibility
> of supporting it.” (Matt Giwer)

>Question 1
>———-

> Mr. Giwer, during the course of discussions in February, 1996,
> in which you performed some truly amazing mental gymnastics in
> a futile attempt to confuse everyone, you made the following
> statement:

> Perhaps he is in league with the revisionists at Yad Vashem
> who reduced the official number from 6 million to a bit over
> 3 million. (Giwer, The 4-Million)

> In subsequent follow-up articles on the same general topic,
> that is, the number of Jewish victims to the Holocaust, you
> were repeatedly asked to support this claim with
> documentation. You have not, and will not, do this, since
> the statement you made is an outright lie; however, for the
> record, Mr. Giwer, when will you produce documentation,
> from Yad Vashem, in support of your assertion?

Please do not be such a fool. You folks will not answer the
clear questions addressed to you. When you do I will consider
answering all questions address to me. Until then, I will pick
and choose as you folks do.

>Question 2
>———-

> Also, in February of 1996, you claimed that since the United Nations
> did not come into existence until 1945 that reference to the United
> Nations could not have occured in 1944:

> In August 1944 (fourty FOUR) how could the United Nations have
> regarded him as anything when it would not even come into existence
> until 15 months later? (Giwer, Re: Jewish Census)

> Are you now prepared to retract that question in light of the fact
> that you have been presented evidence that term “United Nations” was
> used as early as 1942?

>Question 3
>———-

> On February 7, 1996 you made the following comment in reference to
> the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge:

> I was paying attention at the time and not once did I notice any
> Jewish group protesting ouside of the Cambodian Embassy and I was
> living in the DC area at the time, Fairfax County, Virginia to be
> specific. (Giwer, Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE ! (this
> one’s not a troll))

> Could you please specify the location of the Cambodian embassy to the
> United States at the time of the Khmer Rouge. After you
> discover that you are unable to do this, will you instead
> explain why you lied?

>Question 4
>———-

> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:

> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
> lets wait for his commentary.

> …

> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
> throw the rest away)

> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how
> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
> explain.

As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the
flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the
Kremas.

>Question 5
>———-

> You have asserted that eyewitnesses to gassings have noted that
> the victims took “tens of minutes” to die, and you claim that
> this assertion contradicts your other assertion that Zyklon B
> would have killed them more quickly.
>
> Here is the relevant excerpt from what you wrote:

> For a moment there I thought had a way to salvage those stories
> that talk about the screaming going on for tens of minutes.
>
> After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had
> passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas
> chamber was opened.
>
> Note the ten to fifteen minutes. (Giwer, Re: the mechanism of
> hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning)
>
> Mr. Giwer, does the “ten to fifteen minutes” in the text you
> quoted (See URL
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html)
> refer to the time that the screaming went on — i.e. before
> the silence — or does it refer to something else?
>
> If it refers to something else, do you still stand by your
> statement that:

> …I am the only one who has read what people keep saying I
> should read. (Ibid.)

As you know I have repeatedly reposted the eyewitness testimony
you posted claiming death in 15-20 minutes from CO. What is your
point in bringing this up until you assert that eyewitness lied?

>Question Six
>————

> You have written, of late, the following comments regarding
> the number of Holocaust victims:

> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

> and …

> To the Holocaust museum folks the other 6 million are
> the footnote.

> Daniel Mittleman responded to these comments with the
> following:

> “Below … is the Mission Statement of the Holocaust Museum.
> (http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/mission.html)
> Please note in particular the second paragraph. The reader can
> determine for himself whether or not Mr. Giwer’s charge that
> ‘the other six million are a footnote’ is accurate:

> “Mission Statement

> The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America’s
> national institution for the documentation, study, and
> interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this
> country’s memorial to the millions of people murdered during
> the Holocaust.

> The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution
> and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its
> collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary
> victims — six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped,
> and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for
> racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including
> homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and
> political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and
> death under Nazi tyranny.” (Mittleman, Both Sides)

> Mr. Giwer, please explain why you lied about the United States
> Holocaust Memorial Museum’s purpose and viewpoint.

> Work Cited

> Giwer, Matt. UseNet soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,
> February 20, 1996. Subject: “Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million,”
> Message-ID [email protected] Archived with URL:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296

> ———–. UseNet alt.revisionism,
> February 7, 1996. Subject: “Re: Jewish Census”
> Message-ID: [email protected] Archived with URL:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296

> ———–. UseNet alt.censorship, alt.revisionism,
> alt.politics.white-power, alt.skinhead,
> February 21, 1996. Subject: Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE !
> (this one’s not a troll)
> Message-ID: [email protected] Archived with URL:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296

> ———–. UseNet alt.revisionism,
> February 22, 1996. Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
> throw the rest away
> Message-ID: [email protected] Archived with URL:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296

> ———–. UseNet alt.revisionism, February 21, 1996. Subject:
> “Re: the mechanism of hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning,”
> Message-ID [email protected] Archived with URL:
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer.0296

> Mittleman, Daniel. UseNet alt.revisionism, Subject: ”
> Re: Let’s hear both sides of the Holocaust issue,” 4 Apr 1996
> Message-ID: [email protected]

And? He is a god when you [apparently] run the project, have not
qualified to issue your own tax receipts and yet have a
charitable organization issuing them for you. I really do smell
a scam here.

>–
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

But does not have the ability to issue its own tax receipts but
futher denies it is a religious organization.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:48:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:51:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> I am the one who is able to seperate the tax exempt status with
>> the power to give out tax deductions to unrelated organizations.

> A deduction that ranks with your statements that there were no tape
>recorders during WWII and that a statement mentioning the “United Nations: in
>WWII had to be a forgery.

>> I admit I have no idea what Canada permits. I am simply unaware
>> that in the US, for example, an particular charitable
>> organization can give out tax deductions for donations to a
>> secular organization related to the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

> Why not?

If qualified as a charitable organization, a site related to
Pearl Harbor is not a needy thing as it is a voluntary and
unnecessary expense.

If nothing else you might at least agree that while a person can
be in need of charity, a thing can not.

On the other hand, if the synagogue has this power under an
historic or public education exemption then it could operate the
Nizkor site and accept donations for it.

However, it could not accept donations for a separate
organization. Each organization has to separately deal with the
IRS. The ultimate beneficiary of the donation is the only one
that can give out the receipt for that donation.

Otherwise, for example, churches could use their ability to
accept donations without dollar limit on behalf of politicians
who do have dollar limits.

>> Were I to hear of such a thing my first thought would be that it
>> is a scam. I would certainly report it.

> That is the difference between a reasonable person and you. A
>reasonable person would have found out what the U.S. tax code provides. You
>still have not done so.

Then why does the discussion keep going back to non-profit status
when the subject is tax deductable contributions?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35702 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:54:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 7:57:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Derek Bell) wrote:
>:
>: >Alexander Baron writes:
>: >>A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>: >>Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions –
>: >>Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>: >>given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.
>:
>: > So when were UFO pilots tried and found guilty of abductions? There
>: >is *significantly more* evidence for the Holocaust happening than UFO
>: >abductions. Look to Nizkor for references.
>:
>: One was tried on a Babylon 5 episode but the verdict was not
>: shown.
>:
>: Beyond that there hardly more evidence than was presente on the
>: episode for gassing.
>:
>: But then I have been advised that “look to Nizkor” is
>: unacceptable without the specific URLs attached.
>:
>: Rest assured that you will not be so advised.

>Let me guess — that would be because he’s not referring to anything
>specific, el Dorko. How can he point to a URL for that. Do you want him
>to list all the URLs for that?

Why do you believe he is incapable of answering for himself?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 21:18:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35711 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 19:17:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 2:21:03 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> One of the minor points I have been trying to establish here is
>> simply what you have said, that eyewitness testimony is not
>> reliable.

>My father was there and interviewed many survivors. The gassing was
>real.

>My neighbour was in the camps. Several of my parents’ friends were in
>the camps. They are and were reliable. The gassings were real.

>The testimony posted here is extremely accurate. The gassings took
>place.

The problem is that according to what has been posted here so far
what he would have seen would only have been these small ones for
those no longer to work in the camps the west liberated. That is
hardly the thrust of the current phase of these discussions.

>> I can get back to the emotional problem of gassing being more
>> merciful than being worked to death later. That is simply one of
>> the many contradictions in the many true stories I am going
>> after.

>A criminal who wants to make sure that his victim is dead doesn’t care
>about mercy, just kill the victim. It had nothing to do with mercy –
>just killing.

Eastwood’s character said it well for today’s atheist world.
Looking back over even recent history, not to mention what we
know from recorded history, I find people have always done this
terrible thing to each other as a matter of basic human nature.
I find it terribly difficult to single out any particular one of
them for special consideration or condemnation.

Therefore I have great difficulty with people who have a “they
were all terrible but this one was really, really terrible”
attitude. I do not understand them. I would prefer to have
nothing in common with them.

Have others not suffered? Have others not lost families? Are
time and distance and otherness to dull the sensibilities? Are
we continue to build memorials and conduct ceremonies to this
attitude?

And yet it is this attitude that perpetuates exactly the cycle
that it purports to end. We are seeing the results of the “we’re
special” attitude coming out of Bosnia right now.

Let the attitude die. None are special. All suffer equally.
Get on with living. Stop focussing on the past. Stop keeping
hate alive.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35713 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:35:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 365
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 3:34:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> According to a USA Today poll earlier this year there was some
>> huge percentage of the people in the US reported believing they
>> had been abducted at some time in the lives, something like 10%.
>> That is a rather larger number than “hundreds.”

>One might wonder who sponsored and interpreted the results of this poll?

It is sort of surprising that you did not demand the date and
page number and then when I can’t provide it, claim that I am
making it up. Or are you getting tired of that ploy?

>And what about the significance, if any, of it? What critical thought was
>applied to determine its validity, what conclusions, if any, can be wrung
>from it? Furthermore, how was this “something like 10%” of alien
>”abductees” determined? Where they specifically asked? Did they volunteer
>the information? Is this poll yet another example of “lies, dammed lies,
>and statistics?” Or in this case, perhaps sensationalism and
>charlantanism? To whit:

>From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66:

It is also surprising for such a stickler on credentials that you
would cite a man with a doctorate in planetary atmospheres.

>”* For example, the September 4. 1994 _Publishers Weekly_: ‘According to a
>Gallup [sic] poll, more than three million Americans believe they have
>been abducted by aliens.’

But if you will accept this one, it is certainly more than
hundreds.

>> And in fact they are quite connected with each other, all
>> offering generally the same description of the aliens and what
>> happens to them, differing mainly in details as to how they go
>> into and out of the UFO.
>>
>> And, unless you believe them, the clear reason why they have such
>> similar stories is all the publicity. In this regard the “greys”
>> are the responsibility of the artists conception of the aliens
>> Betty and Barney Hill and was used as the cover for Incident at
>> Exeter. Since then that has been the dominant description of the
>> bad guy aliens.
>>
>> Another means of spreading the same story are the literally
>> hundreds of support groups for “abductees” around the country.
>> Stories are shared.

>This of course could be said to explain the simlarities between them. Of
>course, Giwer’s implication here is that Holocaust survivors who seek
>support groups also “share” their stories, and thus that is why they all
>describe the “same” horrors of life in Nazi death camps.

Rather I would suggest they spent months to years share camp
rumors about “what is really happening over there.” Certainly a
more compelling experience than support groups.

(Discounting, of
>course, that people all subjected to the same kinds of horrors would, in
>fact, have the same kinds of stories!) But ARE the sories of alien
>”abductees” the same? Have they, like the stories of Holocaust survivors
>STAYED basically the same over the years? Arguably, if they did then a
>comparison between such support groups would seem more relevant.
>Conversely, if in fact, the stories of alien “abuctees” changed over time,
>while those of Holocaust survivors stayed pretty much the same, would seem
>to indicate that no serious, or at least obvious, behavioral comparisons
>could be drawn between them. To whit:

In the UFO cases we have on-going “revelations” and claims and a
progressing series of events. In the holocaust case we have a
one time event. One would expect it to become fixed rather
quickly such as the electrocution and steaming and suffocations
disappearing rapidly.

>> There are in fact relatively few cases that have come directly
>> from the Freudian couch. One of the most famous abductee finders
>> of all is not involved in the profession. Rather he is extremely
>> good (and gullible) at implanting false memories. There has a
>> documentary on this subject that I have seen twice but for the
>> life of me can not remember names.

>Here now, is a more serious issue: One specifically being of just how
>_reliable_ IS one’s memory; how vulnerable ARE people, especially under
>therapy to “recover” allegedly “suppressed” memories, to false memories?
>As it turns out, it appears quite a bit. To whit:

And in these cases we have “I might once have thought, but it
must have been from the constant repetition of the fixed version
of the same story. After enough time, one might no longer
remember what one once believed.

>Now, in some respects, here’s an issue germane to the accounts of
>Holocaust survivors. First, I would argue, we can toss out the issue of
>”recovered” memories, as Holocaust survivors seem to have the exact
>opposite problem- they can’t seem to supress their memories of the death
>camps as they are too traumatic and emotional. (Of course, for any
>survivor testimony that _was_ “recovered” because it was repressed I would
>in general suggest, unless compelling evidence shows they were indeed the
>survivor’s own memories, that their accounts not be used.)

But the general nature of the holocaust has been specified. We
are talking about “those buildings over there.” Perhaps it was
the only way to keep sane, to talk constantly about those who had
it worse.

>This, basically, puts Holocaust survivor testimony in a completely
>different catagory from that of alien “abductee” accounts. The two are
>simply not comparable. That, of course, would also allow us to dismiss
>Giwer’s allusion that the two actually are comparable. One does not
>compare apples and oranges, so to speak, and expect to derive meaningful
>results. (More on this below.)

But on the other hand you have cited those who remembered
spontaniously and they interject that the aliens caused the loss
of memory as the explanation. Leaving them not particularly
incomparable due to the “alien” intervention. Taking as a given
that they were in fact not subjected to a traumatic experience
there would be nothing for them to remember immediately. To hold
them truly incomparable we would have to hold that they were in
fact abducted.

>There is, however, the issue of being fed false information to influence
>one’s reccollection of events that is germane to survivor testimony. How
>can one know if such has been done? What safegaurds can be used to detect
>or counter for it? Not being a phychologist, I have no good answer. Aside
>from having trained professionals qualified to evaluate such testimony do
>so, all I can suggest is that it seems reasonable that a large enough
>number of such testimonies be taken as soon as possible and then weighed
>against each other. There should hopefully be a clear general pattern to
>them that should elicit the truth and hopefully overcome any systemic
>biases on the part of those who give and take the testimonies.

And this again neglects the camp rumor aspect of the stories.

>Then, of course, I would imagine that corrobarating the testimonies with
>other physical and documetary evidence, as well as analysis that does not
>rely on testimonies, would also be a powerfull tool in overcoming any
>defects in survivor testimonies. Fortunately, this is exactly what appears
>to have been done by historians and Holocaust researchers.

That should be the case but it is not. Rather from the written
evidence on use of the word gassing is raised above all other
written evidence without the slightest inquiry as to why this one
person in one letter happened to use that word in while ignoring
the mounds of other documents by other people with no mention of
it.

The physical evidence is similar. It is searched and sifted
until minor aspects of it can be interperated to support the
testimony.

>[snip]

>> Of course these people have generally experienced some traumatic
>> event in their lives or have been general losers looking for an
>> excuse.

>Aside from making the unsupported assertion that alien “abductees” (and by
>implication Holocaust survivors) are “general losers,”

If you do not consider being in a camp losing…

Giwer makes a leap
>of “faith” in implying that accounts of alien “abductions” are, from a
>psychological perspective, the same as accounts of survivors that
>described their experiances in the Holocaust.

>Specifically, Giwer tries to equate some allegedly traumatic experiance of
>alien “abduction” that has been _supressed_, often for many years, and
>then “recovered” by therapy- with arguably dubious methods -to the
>_unsupressed_ memories of life in the Nazi death camps. In fact, for his
>argument to even pretend to hold water, he must de facto presume that
>survivors’ memories of their traumatic experiance are _supressed_. That
>such traumatic experiances would by neccessity be _suppressed_ as they
>alledgedly are in alien “abductions” and that these memories are only
>brought to conscious inspection some time later. Much as are memories of
>child abuse, real or imagined (or alien “abductions”), are. To whit:

The reference of course was to so many who now recount stories
that are in sync with what has been published. I think you would
agree that being in a camp was traumatic.

>From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 156-157:

>”Instances in which the ‘memory’ suddenly surfaces, especially at the
>ministrations of a psychotherepist or hypnotist, and where the first
>’recollections’ have a ghost- or dreamlike quality are highly
>questionable. Many such claims of sexual abuse appear to be invented….

>”Survivors of the Nazi death camps provide the clearest imaginable
>demonstration that even the most monstrous abuse can be carried
>continously in human memory. Indeed, the problem for many Holocaust
>survivors has been to put emotional distance between themselves and the
>death camps, to forget. But in some alternative world of inexpressible
>evil they were forced to _live_ in Nazi Germany- let’s say a thriving
>post-Hitler nation with its ideology intact, except that it’s changed its
>mind about anti-Semitism -imagine the psychological burden on the
>Holocaust survivors then. Then perhaps they _would_ be able to forget,
>becuase remembering would make their current lives unbearable. Ifthere is
>such a thing as the repression and subsequent recall of ghastly memories,
>then perhaps it requires two conditions: (1) that the abuse actually
>happened, and (2) that the victim was required to pretend for long perods
>of time that it never happened.

>Clearly, no such conditions exist, even if wholly supressing such horrid
>memories by survivor witnesses were possible. Survivors’ memories of the
>Nazi death camps cannot be said to have been supressed en masse and later
>recovered, such as is the case for alien “abductees.” There is simply no
>sustainable and credible evidence for it. There can then be no equality
>between survivor’s memories and the alleged “recovered memories” of alien
>”abductees.” Giwer’s “argument” that they do rests on false premises and
>is therfore invalid.

Yet I have been told personal stories of neighbors who would not
talk for years about the subject. I have been told a story of
one who suffered from sleeping problems and such for many years
and under hypnonsis remembered being a sonderkommando. So there
are parallels.

It was my intent to address as many variations as possible in a
rather short and extemporaneous discussion of the subject.

>> So we see, at least in the former case, the traumatic experience
>> of camp life and certainly not in a position to separate reality
>> from camp rumor.

>Aside from the fact that Giwer’s assertion about survivor testimony (see above)
>is based on false premises, and therefore invalid, he also makes an
>additional series of mistakes that render his conclusion useless:

>First, Giwer begs the question in that he de facto presumes the prisoners’
>traumatic experiances render them unable deal with reality. He has offered
>no evidence that indicates they couldn’t.

I can offer that rumor control in US prisons, less traumatic, is
a concern for prison authorities as rumors become truths within a
prison population. I can offer that the military takes special
efforts to get information out as simply close living in a
non-traumatic situation breeds rumors that become truths.

>Second, this in turn evidences post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning.
>Simply because survivors recount “camp rumors” does not mean they could
>not discriminate them from reality because of their traumatic experiances.
>Case in point is the “Jewish soap” rumor. Prisoners were often taunted by
>the Nazis that soap given to the prisoners was made from Jews, while in
>reality- and unbeknownst to the prisoners at the time -there was no
>factual evidence it was.

As in the last.

>Third, Giwer exercises observational selection. He focuses on the
>survivors relating “camp rumors” (i.e. hearsay) as the basis for his
>implied invalidity of their testimony and ignores the fact that survivors,
>”camp rumors” aside, personally _witnessed_ and/or _experianced_ many of
>the Nazi atrocities perpetrated.

I used it to address the consistancy of the stories which was
implied to be unexplainable. This is most clear in the stories
of what happened in the buildings over there rather than what was
clearly confirmed by the evidence of the physical condition of
the survivors. And again you attempt to put everything into the
same category, both starvation and gassing. This is what I have
carefully kept separate.

>In all, a very poor demonstration of critical thinking.

And a failure on your part to separate starvation, disease and
gassing.

>> We see people hanging together afterwards
>> (support groups) to come to terms with the experience and get on
>> with life afterwards. We also had a large amount of media
>> publicity where common details were widely circulated but with
>> newspaper accuracy and thoroughness.

>Again, Giwer continues making mistakes that invalidate his conclusions:

>He begs the question by the de facto presumption that “hanging together
>afterwards” somehow invalidates survivor testimony. This was presumed on
>the false comparison to alien “abductees'” use of support groups. (See
>above.)

There were not synagogues? There were not Jewish neighbors?
That I use a modern term as a reference does not mean that such
things have not always existed in some form or other.

>He makes a non sequitar with his: “[w]e also had a large amount of media
>publicity where common details were widely circulated but with newspaper
>accuracy and thoroughness.” Meaningless gibberish. Simply because
>(alledgedly) “common details” of survivor testimony have been (alledgedly)
>”widely published” it does not follow that because they were so published
>with “newspaper accuracy and thoroughness” that this somehow invalidates
>them. One might expect, for instance, that any survivor account published
>have “newspaper accuracy and thoroughness!” Or that survivor testimony
>might share “common details” like accounts of typhus epidemics,
>descriptions of sleeping six to a bunk, decriptions of atrocities, etc.
>simply because this was the environment _common_ to prisoners at the death
>camps. More so when it involves survivor testimonies from survivors from
>the _same_ death camp.

None of these points have been under contention. It has always
been the buildings over there stories. You continue to fail to
discriminate between the two.

>> So the similarities are in fact quite numerous. It is not
>> unlikely in the least that they people would have many false
>> memories.

>Here Giwer makes an appeal to ignorance- the claim that what ever has not
>been proved false must be true (or visa versa) -by asserting that
>”similarities” (another false assertion in itself) means that the
>survivors have false memories of their experiances in the death camps. It
>is a factually baseless assertion that is without merit.

It is the vice versa I have been referring to, that what is
asserted must support the evidence else showing that similarities
with abductions is an alternate explanation. I have already
stipulated factual evidence for what you cite but appear to be
attempting to lump into gassing.

>> >: The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a
>> >: door from a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a
>> >: pile of shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B.
>>
>> >: UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone
>> >: says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens’ a piece of metal
>> >: said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt.
>>
>> >Do you understand evidentiary rules, Li’l Tommy? If you don’t see the
>> >difference between the records, the gas chambers, the camps, the piles of
>> >belongings, the corpses; and on the other hamnd some yokel claiming a
>> >pyramid is a UFO product — well ,that explains your reasoning here.
>>
>> But of course the subject is these gassing stories only.

>And of course, here Giwer ends with argumentum ad hominem, as he cannot
>attack the argument and must therefore settle for attacking the arguer.

I have a single line that is not even an argument following a
“Lil Tommy” paragraph.

>In conclusion, about the only thing Giwer has thouroughly demonstrated in
>his post is very, very poor critical thinking. His arguments, as well as
>his conclusions, as I have hopefully demonstrated, are meritless and
>should be dismissed.

All you have done is charge off on a tangent supporting what has
been stipulated as supported by factual evidence and then imply
that gassing is in the same category.

Would you like to try again by addressing the subject? Or will
you lapse back into ridicule?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35729 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 22:49:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 5:51:21 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious
>>>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a
>>>>secular event.
>>
>>> If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard
>>>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this
>>>possible violation of the law? If they act to change the situation, then
>>>they will thank you. If they do not act, then it will become clear that a
>>>religious organization can do this.
>>
>> This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver
>>beavers. I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the
>>problem.

> So, basically, your whimper is worse than your bite.

If you have been paying attention, my comments have been
regarding ACCEPTING the claim that Nizkor is not connected to the
synagogue.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Giwer pronounces on pedophelia
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 23:41:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>> >And you’re getting emotional, Mr. Giwer……or are you really claiming
>> >that Mr. McVay is worse than the scumbags who use the Internet to pick up
>> >and molest children?
>>
>> I have made a simple statement of fact. And yes, worse than
>> those as they at least have a rather strange sex orientation that
>> sets them apart. This kind of thing is deliberate.

>Pedophelia is not deliberate? What an interesting set of morals and mores
>Mr. Giwer must have.

There is no indication it is any different from any other
orientation. Of course abstinence is always an options for
everyone.

>I must admit, I have never heard pedophelia referred to as a “strange sex
>orientation.”

We have all the indications of multiple offenders, years of the
practice in full knowledge of society’s attitude even towards
those acqutted, their drastically reduced life expectancy in
prison. It is like saying 50 years ago, “You don’t have to be
gay.”

>But then, I don’t have a 163 IQ. Back where I come from, people who attack
>children are violent offenders. People who rape children are rapists AND
>violent offenders.

Absolutely correct and they continue to do it. They are not a
recent fad. They have been around in society as far back as we
care to look. So have those who like animals but without as much
approprium or criminal penalties but for the life of me I can’t
find the violence or victim in such behavior.

There is another entire class of orientations that is benignly
labeled as kinky.

>Perhaps Ken is right. We need a Giwerese dictionary to keep track of all
>of these “new-fangled” definitions.

The question is which behaviors society chooses to punish and in
what fashion. It has only been in the last few years that this
“crime of violence” concept has been introduced yet were that to
be a true change the penalties for rape would certainly have to
be rethought in terms of the physical harm inflicted OR all
criminal penalties rethought in terms of the psychological harm
inflicted.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35731 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor lies alert
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:47:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:47:58 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>Mr. Giwer is now resorting to spamming alt.revisionism. I suggest that
>>>readers who wish to discourage his behaviour e-mail him a copy of his
>>>own spam. Don’t forget to cc [email protected]

>> What kind of asshole would encourage harrassing my ex-provider?

>> What kind of asshole would save a holohugger would encourage any kind of
>>harrassement?

>> You holohoggers are all alike. You intend to harrass anyone who
>>disagrees with you and you call for an effort shut down any disagreement.

>> You are all to be despised for your tactics as the very
>>antithesis of libertarian princicples.

>> You are all to be despised for your lack of condemnation of
>>others who have used your tactics.

>This from the person who has spent so much time harassing members of this
>newsgroup. This from the person who posted the entire Wannsee document 15
>times. This from the person who forged a hate-letter to his own son. What
>rubbish.

Holohuggers are all alike. They lie, they distort, they do worse
than they claim is done to them and then claim righteousness for
not doing such things.

Yet McFly and Dahlman are documented as doing such things. And
they claim to be such righteous people in their iniquity.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35739 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:29:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> I read only hearsay at best even if it was under oath.

>GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Who really CARES what Giwer reads? Not I. The fact is
>if Dr. Larson where to have been called to testify at the IMT (I don’t
>think he was.) His testimony would have compelling as he was an expert
>witness.

He talks about a process he could not have witnessed unless he
was in the camp when it was in operation. He doesn’t even couch
it as “I was told that …” words.

>> Where do you see evidence?

>GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Who really CARES what Giwer sees? Not I. The fact is if
>Dr. Larson where to have been called to testify at the IMT (I don’t think
>he was.) His testimony would have compelling as he was an expert witness.

Where do you see evidence was the question. And regardless of
what kind of witness he was, it is still hearsay. It is no
different that a prosecution witness reciting a detailed of the
murders as though he had witnessed OJ committing them.

>> Where are his pathology reports?

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer is obviously ignorant that his reports where filed
>with the U.S. Army Medical Corps.

If you know that you know the contents. Do you have a Nizkor
link to them?

>> They would be admissable as evidence.

>Of course they would have been.

Do you have the link? When did you read some representative
ones? Care to recite their contents?

>> Or particular interest will be how he determined cyanide poisoning from ashes.

>GIWER LYING_THROUGH_HIS TEETH ALERT: Only an egotistical idiot like Giwer
>would try to pawn such a purile lie off as this. Dr. Larson, by his
>statement: “…in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I
>personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner” clealrly
>intimates that he personally examined CORPSES and NOT ashes to arrive at
>his conclusion that they were gassed.

And upon what basis did he form that opinion?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:43:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>In article , Jake Livni wrote:

>>Actually, such claims are HIGHLIGHTED in the press. When accused of
>>double standards, the press responds that they hold Israel to a higher
>>standard than Israel and so focus on such reports (even when unfounded).
> ^^^^^^

>Correction:

>When accused of
>double standards, the press responds that they hold Israel to a higher
>standard than THE ARABS and so focus on such reports (even when unfounded).
> ^^^^^^^^^

In this case, Israel is the occupying nation. It is no different
than holding the Soviet Union to a higher standard than the
Afghans a few years ago.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35750 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:46:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:46:34 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>## Liar. You were presented with a document that explicitly
>>>## states that Jews considered “unfit for work” will be killed
>>>## with poison gas.
>>
>>># I was given the Wannsee Protocol.
>>
>>>I’m talking about the Wetzel-Lohse letter.
>>
>> And I am talking about what I was given as evidence.

> No, Giwer. Your responsibility does not end with evidence handed to
> you on a silver platter in this conference. Your responsibility
> extends to all of the evidence that exists. If you offer an
> alternative hypothesis here, it must be the best explanation of the
> entire historical record, not merely the subset of the historical
> record recently posted to a.r.

> Do you undertand what an alternative hypothesis is?

Something you folks will never exist as even a remote
possibility.

And the strangest one I have ever posted was that the Wannsee
Protocol was in fact the plan. I am quite the “revisionist” for
suggesting that.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:50 PDT 1996
Article: 35757 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Message for Hitler’s birthday – zgram960420
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:54:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Dave ([email protected]) whined:

> Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than
> did the Nazis.

>I responded:

> In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders
> of the Soviets!

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) proves that ignorance is the
>cornerstone of his input:

> If the claim were that it had been done by many different and
> mutually conflicting means of execution…

>Does Mr. Giwer really believe that all of those Soviet murders were
>carried out by a single means of execution? As everyone except Mr.
>Giwer knows, Soviet victims were starved to death, deported to gulags,
>shot by firing squads, and incarcerated in mental health institutions.
>I guess that would make them a fiction in Mr. Giwer’s book, but then
>again, I expect Mr. Giwer would refute even the Soviet murders if he
>thought that there was a group of the victims’ relatives on the
>internet waiting to take offense!

Of course there was more to what I said than what you left.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:01:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Laura Finsten wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[edit]

>> Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal
>>disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder
>>rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would
>>pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some
>>40,000 such murders so far this year.

>Trolling for an argument, Mr. Giwer, or does a man with so much
>”life experience” and such a whiz-bang science background actually
>believe the old saws about AIDS being a “gay” disease, and think
>that the “immoral unequivalency” somehow makes it OK for people
>to beat the living daylights out of men for no reason other than
>their sexual orientation?

>I’m not interested in discussing these issues at all, and most
>certainly not with you. I suggest you try a more appropriate
>newsgroup to see if you can the sort of rise that feeds your
>demented self.

I would suggest you go to the CDC site and read the HIV
surveillance reports before you discuss it with anyone.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:56:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:00:08 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> It is in this same thread. How are you missing it? I have just
>>responded to two messages containing the information. That means
>>there are at least four current posts with the information you
>>are requesting.

>Not everyone’s service is efficient as yours. If you truly have a
>point to make then you won’t mind cutting and pasting your proof. So I
>could be missing it because I having seen it.

You can find it yourself at Nizkor. Their feed is perfect and
uncensored.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:40:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 8:42:05 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 04 May 1996 16:26:44 GMT, [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>>> And you also will remember the long holohugger post saying that
>>>this color could only occur as the third valence state of iron
>>>meaning the wall was made of iron. That is quite an interesting
>>>construction technique.
>>
>>Please quote the post and references making this claim. I’m also not a
>>chemist so I need references to this. Chemistry was long ago in 1973.
>>
>>You will note that I doubt your statements, but I’m asking for data.
>>I’m also NOT calling you an idiot.

>Mr. Curtis, you may wish to advise Mr. Giwer that iron is a common
>element in bricks. It is hardly a surprise that Prussian Blue should
>be formed when bricks come into contact with HCN.

>No doubt Mr. Giwer knows that fact already, but it is useful fodder
>for a troll, I suppose.

You might wish to tell the person who posted the description of
the walls as plaster coated brick about the brick problem. You
might also wish to take a look at the picture and notice there is
no sign of brickwork.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:54 PDT 1996
Article: 35780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:38:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]om> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>>
>>> >Get real, Giwer. Even after the repeated postings about the concrete
>>> >walls, even after the postings about the difference between “valence
>>> >state” and a wall made of iron, you still babble on.
>>>
>>> Actually they were about plaster on brick. And the others
>>> demonstarted the plaster can not form blue.

>>
>>Could someone please parse these sentences?
>>
>>Beyond the fact that I don’t know what “demonstarted” means, I cannot for
>>the life of me fathom what this Giwerese statement MEANS. Specifically,
>>I’m concerned about “the plaster can not form blue.” What does this MEAN?

>MAYBE, he is trying to say that Prussian Blue wouldn’t make the walls
>blue if it was used in the pictured room. Unfortunately for him the
>walls are blue. So it doesn’t matter much what he thinks they can and
>cannot do.

So they were painted. You presume the coloration comes from a
chemical reaction with HCN which only comes from a reaction with
iron.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:55 PDT 1996
Article: 35782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:55:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 7:59:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On 07 May 96 06:14:22 , [email protected] (Alec Grynspan) wrote and is
>answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!As I said – I’m not interested in your political aspirations.

>!++GMAIL 1.3++ And one day, Atlas Shrugged
>!–

>I claim you are a little hate the government libertarian wonk. You
>scream I’m lying and that you are a LIBERAL, which is about one the most
>absurd things you have ever said. πŸ™‚
>Change the tagline pal. πŸ™‚

Those who love government, love any government.

Those who trust government, trust any government.

Those who defend government, defend any government.

But claim the ability to overcome love and trust in an instant
should they determine it to the wrong sort of government.

But history has shown they never notice the difference when the
changes are slow enough for them to get used to.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEWS and WANNSEE
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:42:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:43:30 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>>>One of their past accomplishments
>>>>>has been their ability to convince the populace that the Jewish
>>>>>interpretations of Nazi Germany,
>>>>>WW2 and pertinent “incriminating” documents are accurate ones.
>>>>>How? They manuvered
>>>>>themselves into a postion of power to do this. When you hold the
>>>>>trump card, you contol the game.

>>>>And the arrogance with which they push their power to the brink of one’s
>>>>sanity is reason enough for holocaust II, the sequel.

>>>I love the way these little anonymous cowards sit behind their keyboards,
>>>spewing out this rubbish with one hand and picking their nose with the
>>>other.

>> Is that anything like making calls on the company phone and
>>clearing your nose into it?

>Perhaps the Giwer-troll could tell us. The rest of us don’t engage in such
>juvenile activity.

McFly of course.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35796 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The gay disease (was: Les Griswold’s Parliamentary appearance)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:38:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19488 alt.discrimination:46660 alt.revisionism:35796 alt.skinheads:22465

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <[email protected]>
>: <[email protected]>
>: <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Les Griswold ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Laura Finsten ([email protected]) writes:
>: > [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: >
>: > [edit]
>: >
>: >> Were causing death by infecting people people with a fatal
>: >>disease a crime there would be an rather outrageously high murder
>: >>rate among gays by gays. Certainly these rare beatings would
>: >>pale in comparison. If I remember correctly, the US has had some
>: >>40,000 such murders so far this year.

>Mmmm-hmmmmm. And should the US have prosecuted people who infected others
>with Polio, Typhus, and the like?

>I can just see it — during the Middle Ages, a prosecution in Europe for
>”spreading the Plague.” BWAH-HAH-HAH!!!!!!

>AIDS is a disease, moron. No more, no less.

You would compare air or contact borne to a deliberate action?
An action quite often documented to be deliberate by
nondisclosure and lying when asked? That is deliberate murder in
the book of anyone who is not politically correct. But of course
we can not violate the civil rights of the living to save lives
any longer. Quarantine is such a violation.

As they are going to die anyway, life in prison is clearly a joke
and cruel and unusual prohibits the only appropriate punishment,
witholding all medical treatment.

>: > Trolling for an argument, Mr. Giwer, or does a man with so much
>: > “life experience” and such a whiz-bang science background actually
>: > believe the old saws about AIDS being a “gay” disease, and think
>: > that the “immoral unequivalency” somehow makes it OK for people
>: > to beat the living daylights out of men for no reason other than
>: > their sexual orientation?
>:
>: Non sequitur, Fester. Like it or not, AIDS LARGELY affects homos.
>: Stating the TRUTH about the population most at risk of catching this
>: disease does NOT equate with calling it a “gay” disease. Get your head
>: out of your arse.

>So in the parts of the world, where the hetrosexual AIDS rate has
>outstripped the gay AIDS rate, should we know call AIDS the “heterosexual
>disease”?

Only the rate of increase, not the abolute numbers, of IV drug
using heteros as done so. There is another fast rising group,
hetero females but only if their partners are bisexual or IV drug
users. So in fact, if IV drugs are as deadly as said the only
victims are the women. The drugs are going to kill the men
anyway.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35798 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:34:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 9:35:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (tom moran) writes:

>[The testimony of Hans Stark about how he gassed people with
> Zyklon-B in “Krema I”]

># Oh, yea. This is the guy from the registrars office. The
># bookkeeper.

>If you would have bothered to read a little about Auschwitz,
>you’d know that Stark did many things but for “bookkeeping”.

>But you’re a “revisionist scholar”, are you not?

># Grabner went over to get him to pour in the pellets
># because one of the regular guys didn’t show up.

>Actually, he was present at the gassing. Grabner didn’t go
>over and fetch him.

># Don’t you find it peculiar you don’t have any detailed
># accounts, professor?

>This account and others are pretty detailed. If you have any
>proof that Stark lied, let’s see it. If not, stop wasting
>our time with your lame-brained jokes.

I was rather thinking of putting him through “Gentile test.”
First you folks prove he ever existed. Then prove he was at the
camp. Then prove he is telling the truth.

It is the least you can do.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: News FLASH
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:22:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:24:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Thirty eight Hizbollah commandos penetrate to downtown Tel-Aviv.

Shelling intensifies.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35804 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Q&A revised
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:25:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 470
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:27:50 PM CDT 1996
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What was the holocaust?
First there is the fact of the holocaust. Some 13 million
people went into concentration and work camps and about a million
emerged. Over six years, 12 million people disappeared.
Second there are stories about the holocaust. And this is
where the problem lies. The stories, although oft repeated, have
not been critically reviewed.
The question is, why would people lie about what
happened to them? There are many likely answers to that
question.

o Motivation
Plain and simple revenge against the people who had
imprisoned them for years and treated them in an absolutely
shameful manner.
o Mistaken
In any prison rumor is the fastest moving and most
erroneious thing there is. The repetition of common camp rumors
as the truth is certainly to have been expected.
o Physical condition
Although there is question as to the physical
conditions in the camps, were they in fact as bad as told then
these people were on the point of starvation and that common
induces pyschosis particularly if it has been long term.

Certainly there are other possible explanations for false
information to have been generated but these three are sufficient
to indicate there is a clear need for physical evidence for these
statements to support. This testimony can not be accepted as
true without physical evidence.

What was the plan for the Holocaust?

Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
subject. In fact we have only one master plan document which is
the Wannsee Protocol. This document covers the highest level
official plans for what is now called the holocaust. In fact it
discusses two plans, before and after the conference.
The conference was convened in late 1941 apparently to
change the plans of the Nazi government regarding the Jews. This
is the most interesting point. There is nothing in it that
addressed the other 6 million involved which is of note.
The plan prior to the conference was that Jews would be
moved out of Europe. The is referred to as “to the east” and by
the curious word “emigrated” in the common translation. No death
camps, nothing more sinister than kicking people out of Europe,
certainly a violation of human rights but that is it.
After this late 1941 conference, it does become sinister.
The plan becomes to move Jews to the east to be worked to death
by hard manual labor such as road building. There is a
deliberate plan to kill people introduced by this means only.
In between the description of these two plans there is what
appears to be an oblique reference to the war not going very well
in the East. Clearly the emigration outside of Europe would have
required the conquest of Russia which was clearly faltering at
that time. Given that problem the use of labor camps rather than
for road construction was an reasonable modification in the plan.
But what is missing from the revised plan is any mention
whatsoever of gassing or anything other than being worked to
death. In addition there a provision for sending those over 65
to a ghetto instead of to hard labor. There is a similar
provision for Jews decorated for combat in WW I.
The conclusion of course is that although this document is
often represented as evidence for the Nazis always having planned
to exterminate the Jews, it is clearly nothing of the kind. That
plan in even the worst case interpretation was developed in late
1941.

What is the basis for stories about the Holocaust?

Again, there is surprisingly little. Almost all of the
information we have comes from witnesses. Unfortunately these
witnesses are not particularly credible in that the tell stories
that are contrary to science, conflict with each other and
otherwise offer fanciful elements that are curious at best.
Additionally the most common witness testimony used to
support these stories is only from the prosecution without
indication of either the charges or the results of the trial. It
is as though no defense was ever offered in these cases.
One basic principle has to be introduced, testimony that
contradicts what is known from physical law can not be considered
credible. In other words, were a witness to say that people were
killed by the gravity being shut off and died of broken necks
when they crashed into the ceiling, we can feel save in
discounting such testimony. All violations of physical law in
testimony are equal and thus when we read that death by gassing
causes the bodies to give off heat, it is in the same category as
turning off the gravity.

What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?

Again, very little, for most of the stories about how the
deaths occurred including gassing. It is hardly in question that
millions of people disappeared into the concentration and work
camps and that very few survived. But what little physical
evidence of gassing that exists it is clear the evidence is being
force fit into a preconceived conclusion.
For example, for years there was a hunt for a building at
Auschwitz that would permit gassing of people at the rate that
had to have occurred to satisfy the 12 million body count and the
reports of so many of these witnesses. Presently the effort is
to find features of a morgue converted into a gas chamber to
perform this function. This effort has problems right from the
start.
First we note that it is partially underground and that the
walls above ground are bermed, banked with earth. We also note
that it is steel reinforced, flat concrete roof. Yet in the same
compound there are two other buildings without the construction.
They use simple peaked roofs which are cheaper to construct.
Although the partially underground construction can be
explained as means of providing a cooler environment for its use
as a morgue that works against the use as a gas chamber as it
makes the evaporation of the gas slower. It is unclear what the
more expensive roof has to do with either a morgue or a gas
chamber.
Other possible design features include an air-tight door
(found 200 feet away), a ventilation system, and either two or
four small holes in the roof. The second two are potential in
that there exists at the moment exactly one conceptual drawing
that is not a blueprint and the blower that drove the ventilation
system has not been found so we have only a general idea of its
capacity.
Those who start with the conclusion that it was converted to
a gas chamber have always asked, “What else could it be?” when in
fact they have not considered other possibilities. The most
obvious is a bomb shelter.
There are two mechanisms for bomb damage, over pressure, the
compression wave from the explosion, and fragmentation. Keeping
the entire structure low to the ground avoids having walls
exposed to both the overpressure and the fragmentation, save of
course for a direct hit on the roof. Direct hits can always ruin
your whole day.
But in addition to structural damage protection there is
damage to the people inside. The concrete and the earth would
protect against fragmentation but the overpressure would damage
eardrums. And thus the air-tight door to keep that pressure wave
out of the building.
Of course the ventilation system would provide the needed
air for the people inside and the holes in the roof the exhaust
for that air. And they would be vertical rather than horizontal
as horizontal makes them attractive living spaces for burrowing
creatures.
The supporters of the gas chamber hypothesis imply they know
what design features of large scale gas chamber would be.
Unfortunately for this assumption there are no textbooks on the
subject. Further, the people who designed it had no such
textbooks either. If these were gas chambers then they were the
first and only large scale gas chambers in the world.
Thus the designers would have had little chance of getting
an efficient design the first time around. Yet they are alleged
to have changed the second design and the changes are trivial.
Yet we are to accept that people without prior knowledge or
experience in the design of large scale gas chambers some how
developed the first and only gas chambers of their kind and
incorporated such obvious feature that they leap off the page of
a conceptual drawing to equally unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people.
But that is not what we are asked to accept. Rather we are
being asked to accept that the unknowledgeable and inexperienced
people are diligently searching for evidence on this conceptual
drawing that is an a gas chamber. The clear admission is that
they are searching for evidence that it is in fact what they want
it to be. This is called torturing the data until is confesses.
And along the way they are ignoring all of the indications of
another purpose, that of a bomb shelter.
Now certainly there are problems with the bomb shelter
hypothesis also. That is why I suggest it in fact remained a
morgue in its primary fuction and gained a secondary purpose by
the modifications in its construction.
Of course one might ask why it was the only one of the three
structures that was destroyed when the SS abandoned the camp.
Those who wish it to be a gas chamber say it was to destroy the
evidence yet any evidence there might have been before was still
there under the rubble. No evidence was destroyed.
Rather upon retreat one would destroy anything that might be
of military value to the enemy, in this case a bomb shelter.

* * * * *

Even more fabulous are the stories of Treblinka. Although
the total number of gassings at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex is
officially down to a bit over a million, the 40 acre complex at
Treblinka is supposed to have gassed and burned 2 million in a
space of hardly two years where A-B took nearly four years for
its lesser number.
The executions at Treblinka were originally testified to
have been done by electrocution, being steamed alive, and by
being put into vacuum chambers. There was even sworn testimony
to this during the war crimes trials but those methods are not
mentioned much these days. Even the holocaust defenders to not
believe in those methods any longer.
Let me jump ahead to the end of the story here so the rest
of it can be put in context. After this complex was shut down
every trace of it was removed such that nothing can be found
today, not even building foundations. Keep this in mind.
At Treblinka the currently popular means of extermination is
the engine exhaust from abandoned Russian tanks. Death by carbon
monoxide poisoning. What is interesting about the testimony
regarding this is that it occurred in roughly the same time frame
as cyanide poisoning even though they are not equivalently deadly
nor did they have the same release mechanisms.
Now of course these engines sound simple and reasonable but
what is missing from all of the stories are descriptions of them.
Not descriptions of the engines per se but everything else that
would have been needed to make them work. For example, the
engine mounts. Without engine mounts anything connected to the
engine will quickly fail from the vibration. And what are the
engine mounts mounted on? Without expert and time consuming iron
work they are mounted upon the chassis of course.
And then where are the batteries to run the starter? And
the mounts for the batteries? And the fuel tank and the mounts
for the fuel tanks?
And then all of this in a specially built building to
protect it from the elements. At some point one has to ask why
these tanks were not simply backed up to the buildings and used
without all of this time consuming and expensive disassembly and
reassembly. What we are left with upon even an elementary
analysis, meaning I have not gone into all the wiring and gauges
and spare parts and the like, we are left with a needlessly
complex exercise to claim this was done by tank engines.
But there is more to Treblinka than just this. This is the
camp of the great burning pits. Ten pits 40 or 50 meters long by
8 meters by 2 or 3 meters deep, stories vary. For those
unfamiliar with metric a meter is about 3 1/3 feet. Half a
football field long. as wide as the longest dimension of your
average two story house and six to ten feet deep. All ten of
these pits were used for burning bodies, 2 million bodies in
fact.
Yet even at only two pounds of bone ash per body and evenly
burying it over the 40 acres of Treblinka, there is no sign of
the 50 tons of bone ash per acre. That is about 1 lb per square
foot and not a sign of it. The evidence for all of this? A
claim of having done core samples and having found a few bone
fragments, a little bone ash and (inexplicably) human hair after
being buried for so many years. That is it.
But wait, there is more. Each of these pits was supposed to
have a channel that collected the human fat so it could be
collected and then poured back over the bodies as fuel for
burning them. First ask yourself how you would create an
accurate slope over a distance of 150 feet. Second ask yourself
why you would bother.
If you have ever had any experience with a BBQ you know the
problem is keeping the fat from burning. Yet here is clearly a
claim of a very serious effort requiring a serious surveying
effort to collect fat that would have burning before is ever got
to the channel in the middle. And further claims that the fat
did not burn the first time around but was required to be
reheated and poured in again, but no descriptions of the
reheating equipment of course.
Further the soil is assumed to have been impervious to fat
in that it did not absorb it. The ashes were impervious to fat
and did not absorb it. But of course if it did as happens in any
BBQ the heat would have evaporated or ignited it. It would not
have survived to pool down to one end to be collected. But the
eyewitnesses tell this story.
It is contrary to not only physical law but common
experience. If you have never done the BBQ, take a pan of hot
bacon grease and pour it on bare soil and see what happens. Or
get a BBQ, fire it up, toss the hamburger into the live coals and
see if you have any fat collected in the bottom after it is over.
A first order approximation of what is described to have happened
is quite easy.

So where would these stories be similar in major features?

As above we first have camp rumors which everyone would
know. “That mysterious building over there is for gassing us if
we don’t work hard enough or get sick.”
And why would people tell each other stories like this? I
really do not know the answer to that nor why telling ghost
stories around the campfire is such a popular tradtion. I simply
know the latter is.
But as with ghost stories each person retelling the story
they heard before embellishes it a bit, adds new frightening
features even though they are no more credible than the original
stories. Thus we have each story at least repeating and
occasionally embellishing the previous. And of course the next
embellishes the already embellished previous story.
And then given the spirit of revenge what would be the
motivation to separate known fact from stories given that
sympathetic liberators are eating it up without the least
challenge to the stories? And then the condition of long term
starvation and the likliehood of protein deficit psychosis and
there is a basic question of the ability to separate fact from
story.

So how could so many die so quickly?

Let us turn to “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander
Soltynitchen [sp?] for our first clue. He reports that the
average life expectancy in them in our post anti-biotic world was
seven years. With this we have a baseline for survival time.
If you are willing to ignore Treblinka for the moment and
concentrate upon the more famous Auschwitz-Birkenau complex we
have 1.8 million people going in and 0.6 million coming out over
a 5 year period. In other words, in a pre-antibiotic world the
average life expectancy was on the order of four years.
Perhaps that is too extreme a difference. But first we have
the most common agreement of deaths from typhus. That is only
the beginning of the causes of deaths from disease.
Unless sanitation was much better than is commonly reported,
and that means nearly up to the standards on Berlin, deaths from
cholera and dysentary would be at least as bad. Unless the
heating and clothing standards were up to those Berlin standards,
deaths from the flu and the common cold and the follow-on
pneumonia would be up to those typhus levels every winter.
Unless food stanards were far better than commonly reported
people do not live very long working 18 hours a day, seven days a
week without rest if they have the least health problems.
It is not so much a question of how many died without
gassing but rather a miracle so many could have survived with it.

If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?

The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish organizations.
There is very little impartial secular history on these stories.
At this point one can only speculate as to why.
The immediate response of the Jews in Palestine upon hearing
these stories was to view the German Jews at least as a disgrace
as Jews for going passively to their deaths. Even passively
going to the camps in the first place was considered disgraceful.
Thus you find various descriptions of the holocaust insisting
that both everyone knew and no one knew what was happening.
The “everyone knew” stories are to implicate the average
German citizen at the time. The “no one knew” stories are to
excuse the behavior of German Jews. But when you look to the
believers in the stories of the holocaust, questioning either
story and pointing to the consequences of it being true earns the
quick response of anti-semite or neo-nazi.
As the Jews are clearly the ones preserving these stories,
and of course there is a amen corner that makes money off of them
for preserving the stories, there is a clearly religious and
social nature to them. These stories help define the group
identity of Jews. The repetition of these stories has become the
same as reading scripture. It is part of a shared identity. The
more family one has lost the more Jewish one is.
As to the insistance upon gassing, it makes the camps
expecte but the gassing unexpected thus a middle ground between a
hope for survival and certain doom.

Have you not implied that conditions had to have been better than
reported?

Take for example one the most famous people from Auschwitz,
Anne Frank. Even with the Nazis in full retreat the story of her
last days is that she was in an SS infirmary at Auschwitz
recovering from typhus. And then in retreating from the Russian
advance and suffering from typhus she was evacuated to another
camp to the west where she died in another infirmary.
On one hand we have stories of people being force marched to
to the west but in this case we have person who would clearly
died from such a march as she was moved from infirmary to
infirmary. On one hand we are told that those who were unfit to
work and in this case we have hardly more than a child and not a
skilled laborer sick with typhus being moved from camp to camp in
some form of transportation in what clearly appears to be an
effort to save her life.
The stories are incongruous. In fact her father survived
typhus in another SS infirmary and went on to publish her diary.
This is not to claim the SS were nice people but certainly they
were not able to select a future famous person for special
treatment.
Nor am I claiming to know what the conditions in fact were
in these camps at all times. I am simply pointing out the
diseases that are present in all other circumstances of close
living under poor conditions. And the claim is that all that
happened in the disease were two major outbreaks of typhus and a
few minor ones. This is wholely at odds with what is to be
expected under the reported conditions.

So what is your interest in all of this?

I feel myself involved in the long honored avocation of
debunking nonsense. I have done it for years in creationism,
religionism, UFOs, Catastrophism, and ritual, satanic child abuse
among others. This is the “largest” or most publically
challenging I have taken on. In doing so I am using the same I
have used on the other subjects. My confrontational approach is
the same, my disreguard for personal feelings is the same, my
calling them as I see them attitude is the same.
And I do note that debunking the foolish beliefs of others
is not appreciated when the same methods are applied to one’s own
cherished beliefs. But the susceptability of such beliefs do not
change with either the subject or who holds the belief.
Debunking alien abductions and holocaust gassing uses the same
methods. The results of the application of those methods are the
same.

What gas was used?

The substance used was Zyklon B. This is hydrogen cyanide,
a very lethal substance, in which what we would today commonly
call kitty litter was soaked and formed into pea sized pellets.
This permitted it to be used as a general purpose fumigant. So
lets start at the beginning.
Hydrogen cyanide changes from a liquid to a gas at room
temperature. However if it is kept under pressure it will remain
liquid as does propane and butane. On the other end of the
spectrum are the targets of fumigation, mammals such as rats and
insects. While mammals are very susceptable to cyanide poisoning
insects are not. It takes a much higher concentration for a much
longer period of time to kill insects.
It was invented in the 1920s in a time when there were no
insectides. The novelty of the invention was that by releasing
it from pellets it would release over a long period of time.
Thus it could be used to kill insects in addition to rats. It
was a single substance that could kill anything in a building.
But this slow release is what works against the stories told
about its use against people. Now it may have been used but it
does not fit the stories told about it. For example, slightly
above room temperature, it takes six hours to release all of this
gas. At freezing it takes thirty hours.
Yet the stories report the deaths of hundreds of people in
times on the order of ten to fifteen minutes. There are ways to
make estimates of the real time it would take and that certainly
can be done. But when they are done we find different problems,
those being with the claims of the thousands of people per hour
that are supposed have been gassed. It takes much longer.
The only way around these problems is to assume massive
quanties were used for each gassing but this is not reported in
the stories.
But we can see from here the entire point of Zyklon B was
that it was designed for slow release and yet the stories require
quick release. There are other aspects of the stories that
require or at least strongly imply that these pellets stopped
releasing the gas in a half hour or so whereas that is contrary
to the way it was designed to work.

Why all the emotion over this subject?

There has grown up a category of true believers around every
detail of the holocaust as it has become codified over the years.
They literally see themselves as defending the truth. As such
any aspect of it that is questioned brings an emotional response.
However, rather than acting as defenders they respond by
attacking. They do not respond by defending the questioned
details, rather they respond by calling names like anti-semitic
and neo-nazi.
If asked to explain this response they will state that
everyone who has ever questioned was really trying to gain a
foothold against their truth and has eventually revealed himself
to be as they describe. Unfortunate for this explanation is that
such an approach could only be justified if in fact there had
been in the past a large number of persons who had been dealt
with sincerely and there have not been. The persons they can
point to are those who have made no secret of their neo-nazi and
anti-semitic leanings from the beginning.
The fallacious is reasoning is “neo-nazis deny the holocaust
therefore everyone who questions is a neo-nazi.” That isn’t even
a good fallacy as it fails on two points.
Next we find that these “defenders” vary from the very rare
professional historian or scientist, down to the very common
person untrained in any thing who read what his is told. That
latter are the most common. Yet they all attack with the same
ferocity and conviction. It is difficult to see what motivates
professionals to act unprofessional or amateurs act as though
they were imbued with the absolute truth.


——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:53:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWERS JUST SO COOL
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:27:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 10:29:46 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 07 May 1996 10:18:48 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!I have pushed the messages per day count from about 100 to 300
>!due to my participation here.

>Yer just such a powerful dude man… So cool…

>!I am now ignoring most messages to get it back to a reasonable level so
>!that old farts like like Ferre can deal with it.

>Get in some trouble again Matt?

Chuch Ferre swears it is all my fault. Take it up with him.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:42:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]x.netcom.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28150 alt.revisionism:35809 soc.culture.jewish:48969

[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>> >: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>> >: > It is considered a personal injury under Talmudic law and treated the
>> >: >same as any non-sexual personal injury. I have never heard of a personal
>> >: >injury case in the US where the money was given directly into the control
>> >: >of a minor child rather than the child’s parents or legal guardian. I’ll
>> >: >bet the Giwer-troll hasn’t either.
>> >:
>> >: Nor have I ever heard of a purely financial penalty for other
>> >: than accidentally inflicted harm.
>>
>> >That’s because you’ve never bothered to read history. Payment for
>> >injury or death, usually in livestock, was quite common at one time.
>> >Check out, for instance, the term “wergild” in Anglo-Saxon culture.
>>
>> Now three year old girls are being compared to livestock?

>OK, so now Giwer hasn’t heard of either parking tickets *or* ancient
>history. Maybe he doesn’t realize that in the greatest civilization of
>all time, ancient Greece, women and children were considered the property
>of the husband/father. He could sell them, kill them, and I suppose
>demand financial compensation for their “damage”. However, present-day
>greeks do not believe this. So why are you squawking about it, fool?
>Most western civilizations have, for most of history, seen women and
>children as chattel, and not actual people receiving equal protection
>under the criminal law.

I was not aware this was a discussion of what either Greeks or
Jews believe today. What is your point?

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:01 PDT 1996
Article: 35810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:33:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28151 alt.revisionism:35810 soc.culture.jewish:48970

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected]ly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >That’s because you’ve never bothered to read history. Payment for
>: >injury or death, usually in livestock, was quite common at one time.
>: >Check out, for instance, the term “wergild” in Anglo-Saxon culture.
>:
>: Now three year old girls are being compared to livestock?

>EXTRAORDINARY TROLLISH EVASION ALERT: It’s obvious to any native
>reader of the English language that the phrase above “usually in
>livestock” indicates that livestock was given to the families of
>victims, and not that payment was for the death of livestock.
>Contrary to what Giwer said, and regardless of how hard he tries
>to change the subject, the practice of requiring payment for
>unlawful death is no uncommon in history–in many cultures, it
>replaced the blood feud and was, in turn, replaced by the “debt
>to society” idea. Sorry, Matt–try again.

Livestock was given as compensation for the rape of children?
Are you certain about that one?

Even so, fine with me. Both laws are in the same category.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:02 PDT 1996
Article: 35811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:19:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 1:22:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22470 alt.revisionism:35811

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>> And Nizkor is not in the United States (so you can’t possibly mean
>>>> them.)
>>
>>>Minor correction. The Nizkor Project is Canadian. Nizkor USA,
>>>however, is American πŸ™‚
>>
>>>Watch for it… and Nizkor UK.
>>>Coming soon to your favourite country.
>>
>> Incorporated? Sole proprietorship? Partnership?
>> Inquiring minds want to know.

> I believe that Ken has already answered this. I recall seeing him say
> that they are a not-for-profit organization that has applied for tax
> exempt status.

>> Are you going to offer any answers for what otherwise appears to
>>be a scam?

> On what grounds do you believe it appears to be a scam? As best I can
> tell they purport to be an educational and archival repository
> institution and are presenting educational information via their web
> site. What do you surmise that this different than this?

My “surmise” is based solely upon the defense offeren for it.

My first observation was that it was a religious site based upon
contributions being solicited through and accepted by the
synagogue.

Its defenders jumped in to deny that.

Given the defenders are correct I would expect the deductions to
be denied due to the lack of a connection between the synagogue
and the site.

Of course if the site is a subsidiary of the synagogue there
would be no problem.

—–

It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:03 PDT 1996
Article: 35815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:41:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:42:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>: >: >Distribution:
>: >:
>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: >: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >: >:
>: >: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: >:
>: >: >: >: I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: >: >: >: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: >: >: >: it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: >: >: >: comedy of the absurd?
>: >: >:
>: >: >: >Because you apparently “did it” for twenty years without having the
>: >: >: >slightest idea of how “it” is done? I dunno, just a guess…
>: >: >:
>: >: >: How would a college kid like you know?
>: >:
>: >: >The same way a guy with a Bachelor’s only, and 20 years’ separation from
>: >: >academia, would know about what academics are, and what scholarship is?
>: >:
>: >: >The same way a guy with not a whit of training OR experience in law would
>: >: >insist on legal points which contradict every all known legal scholarship
>: >: >and judgments?
>: >:
>: >: In case you missed it, I was referring to 30 years of real life
>: >: experience.
>:
>: >I’m sorry, Mr. Giwer, I didn’t realize you had 30 years of real life
>: >experience in the law. Or in Chemistry. Or in archaeology. Or in
>: >anthropology. Or in history. Gee, what’s your “life experience” in these
>: >again?
>:
>: >Or do just claim that by the mere miracle of being alive, you became an
>: >expert in these things?
>:
>: When you age enough to have it you will also have it. I doubt I
>: will be alive to discuss what you have learned at that time.

>No kidding? When one ages, one automatically becomes an expert in all
>those things, whether they’ve had any actual experience or not? And I’ll
>become an automatic expert in chemsistry, and anthropology, just by
>living to be 50? ? I don’t have to study or anything?

>What a fascinating fantasy world you live in.

If you truly expect not to need or want to learn anything after
graduation you are certainly in for a surprise or a long term
career in the fast food industry.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35816 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nonprofits — real, not Giwerese
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:49:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 3:51:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>:
>: >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>: >>
>: >>
>: >> Ignoring for the moment that the subject is Canada.
>:
>: > GIWER LIE ALERT: Giwer did not limit his claim to Canada or refer to
>: >Canadian law. What he said, and said repeatedly, was that U.S. law does not
>: >allow for tax exempt satus for “secular” organizations. Giwer was wrong.
>: >Giwer did not know what he was talking about. Giwer now claims he did not
>: >make the statement. Giwer thinks everybody is a fool.
>:
>: The mail, boy, the mail. Can a US organization having the power
>: to give out tax receipts for contributions to another
>: organization?

>I don’t know for sure. But that isn’t what you said, so who cares? You
>said that no country allows tax-exempt status for non-religious
>organizations. Boy, were you wrong. I have so much fun when you get
>caught in a lie.

>Just curious — do you know a US organization that’s doing so?

This has happened many times here. You folks latch on to the
first thing someone misquotes me as saying and then claim I said
it. And then come the demand of proof from me as to what I said.

Considering my first statement was that Nizkor appeared to be a
religious organization as witnessed by the acceptance to
donations to it by a synagogue, how would I have jumped to a
different subject entirely?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:37:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 11:41:31 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35817 soc.culture.jewish:48972 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19495 soc.culture.israel:32989

[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>”Bill” seems to be very confused.

>In article <[email protected]>, Bill wrote:
>>[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>>>And to think that some people believe that the PLO has suddenly
>>>become a “peace partner”…

>>Part of the PLO has adopted peace and part has not. Why throw them all
>>into on lot ? Why be so bigoted ?

>You’re right.

>The part of the PLO that is led by Yasser Arafat accepts Israel as a
>legitimate state with Jerusalem as it’s capital.

>OTOH, the part of the PLO that is led by Yasser Arafat still calls for
>Jihad against Israel and continued “martyrdom” “until the last little boy
>and girl” so that “Palestine” can take over the land of Israel and Jerusalem,
>it’s capital.

>Huh? Both parts of the PLO led by the SAME Yasser Arafat? But these
>are ambiguous and contradictory statements? So what else is new?
>Every one of Arafat’s previous agreements (which he never abides by,
>anyways) are just as ambiguous.

You are very out of touch. Just last week whoever is in charge
of Israel these days CONGRATULATED Arafat for the PLO getting all
of those provisions removed.

Or are you just trying to continue your misrepresentation of the
PLO?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:01:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 11:03:19 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Ceacaa wrote:

>> I would agree with M. Stein. I wonder if the 9 cm. space which
>>Mark Van Alstine posits had enough surface area to allow for the
>>rapid evaporation of the cyanide from the diatomatious earth
>>of the Zyclon. Further, since cyanide gas rises, the core would
>>have to be long enough to get the gas to dispurse into the
>>room. I see what Mark describes as more of a wire basket.

>Ceacaa’s argument about HCN rising makes no sense. Does Ceacaa also
>believe that nitrogen rises? It’s the temperature of the gas and the
>turbulence that will determine the dispersion.

You must never have taken P Chem or the person whom you asked
what it is did not completely explain it. Once in an enclosed
column it would preferentially rise within that column. That is
the enclosed space requirement which does permit directional
rising, a draft effect so to speak.

The only serious question here is whether the cooling from
evaporation would overcome the higher density of the ambient
atmosphere and cause it to to go down rather than up.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35826 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still no proof, or too much….
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:47:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:47:33 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>: >>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >>> In that case I can’t figure out why Mr. Giwer is having such trouble
>: >>>producing the quote. He made the claim, therefore it is his duty to
>: >>>provide the physical evidence. Yet all he provides is his eyewitness
>: >>>testimony, which by his own admission is absolutely worthless.
>: >>
>: >> It is also the rule here to refer people to the Nizkor files.
>:
>: > It is also the rule to give the URL to the specific file. But even
>: >that will be worthless if a lying troll without reading comprehension
>: >claims that the file says something it does not, which is why a quote is
>: >needed.
>:
>: But it has a search engine. Have you not noticed that assertion?

>Whether it does or not matters not a whit, oh Artful Dodger, because even
>a search engine cannot find that which does not exist. For you to make up
>lies and suggest others produce evidence of them is, well, Giwerish.

So you are suggesting the only alternative is to go through
100Meg of poorly organized files? (My original comment upon the
poor organization is what resulted in the claim of having a
search engine so that effectively acknowledged.)

What you apparently do not realize is that REGEX requires that
the filename to be constructed of all useful keywords before it
could possibly useful. 1) Unix does not permit filenames that
long, 2) someone would have to read it all and choose the words.
That is a lot of reading.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:02:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 12:02:06 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Nick Danger, Third Eye wrote:
>> However, it could not accept donations for a separate
>>organization. Each organization has to separately deal with the
>>IRS. The ultimate beneficiary of the donation is the only one
>>that can give out the receipt for that donation.

> Can someone explain to me what the Giwer-troll is saying, exactly?
>Poor people on the street can give out tax receipts, or the Salvation Army
>and others running soup kitchens for the ultimate benefit of those same
>poor people are giving out illegal tax receipts?

> And while the Giwer-troll is expounding on his invincible ignorance of
>tax law, both American and Canadian, the fiendish nose-honker remains at
>large to terrorize innocent citizens. Why the delay, Nick Danger?
>Mukluks still drying in the cellophane? Or a bowl too many of Loosener’s
>Castor Oil Flakes?

The pretend ignorance is your.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 21:01:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 4:00:55 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Nor has anyone explained what libeling Buchanan on all of those
>> points has to do with it. You first.

> The truth is not libel. The accusations posted about Buchanan were true.

It was stated his comments were about Jews when in fact they were
about Israel. So the lead assertion was false rather than true.

One of them was a question he asked another but all indications
of that were deleted. So that was deliberately modified and
therefore false.

>> You are the one who was deceived into believing I lie. But in
>> any event you do agree that I did not start the name calling.

> Nobady agrees to that because it is not true.

And how many jumped in repeating his implication with him as the
authority? Why do you not tell me none?

>> >: But you do have to put things in the order they occurred. The
>> >: charge of anti-semitism against me arose as above prior to any
>> >: negative statements about Jews.

> That’s a lie.

Of course, of course. From the killfile challenged even.

>> But of course your memory is so poor that you do not remember
>> which side started the name calling.

> Any person with a good memory or who wishes to refer to the drivel
>archived in the Nizkor files knows who started the name calling: Mat Giwer did.

Then of course we agree to disagree until a sequence from the
first exchange to when it started is prepared with the evidence
that it is complete and unmodified.

>> I did not start the name calling.

> You most certainly did.

Of course, oh killfile challenged one. Why don’t you tell me you
never said you were going to put me in your killfile?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:08:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 12:13:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> Otherwise, for example, churches could use their ability to
>> accept donations without dollar limit on behalf of politicians
>> who do have dollar limits.

> Your analogy demonstrates your ignorance. A 501(c)(3) organization is not
>allowed to engage in politics. In fact, they must sign a statement every year stating that
>they have not.

Of course they do. But that statement is not limited to politics
but includes every recipient. Thus they could not truthfully
make that statement regarding Nizkor unless it is a subsidiary
organization. But you folks say that it is not.

>> Then why does the discussion keep going back to non-profit status
>> when the subject is tax deductable contributions?

> Only because, as usual, you do not understand what you are writing about.
>The discussion has been about tax exempt organizations —

It was diverted to that. It started as an observation that
Nizkor is a religious site.

the only thing that the IRS
>determines. Whether an organization has a “not for profit” status is dependent on the
>laws — usually state laws — under which it is organized. The 1982 World Science Fiction
>Convention, for example, was organized as a not for profit corporation under the laws of
>Illinois; it received it’s status as a tax exempt organization under 501 (c)(3) of the U.S. tax
>code. Section 501(c)(3) does *not* require that the organization be a “charity.” A
>501(c)(3) organization may make contributions to other organizations but only if they have
>501(c)(3) status. There is no requirement that the other organization have either the
>same purpose or a charitable purpose.

> Apparently you are the only person posting here who cannot understand this.

> This, by the way, is U.S. law. Go and read Canadian law and determine
>whether it is similar.

But even in this regard, you hold that a synagogue has the
authority to determine the tax exampt status of the unrelated
Nizkor organization.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Secular Jews become fanatically ‘religious’ to justify Israel’s creation
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:57:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:58:42 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

># And what prevented them from simply looking at the ship and the
># crew sunning themselves on the deck, as in lying on lounge
># chairs, and realize it was not Egyptian?

>The first to attack the ship, as I recall, were two Mirage
>fighters. These came in high speed and fired; I doubt there
>was time to see people sunning themselves.

Either know nothing about the subject or are deliberately
attempting to misrepresent events. Yes, of course you are
technically correct in referring to the first attack. But do not
know about or are deliberately omitting the initial surveillance
passes that would have been for the purposes of identification.

The surivors report one pass was close enough to clearly see the
face of one of the pilots. That is certainly close enough to see
men on lounge chairs sunning themselves on the deck. And they
certainly would have noticed those men were waving at them.

>But the bottom line is that these things happen. There are similar
>cases of Americans shooting at Americans, and Israelis shooting
>at Israelis, and, I guess, things like that happen to every army.

And of course this statement requires the omission of the events
prior to the attack.

># What prevented them from looking and seeing that it was not a
># warship?

>I recall it was misidentified to be an Egyptian army ship, but
>not a warship – a lightly armed cargo ship (the “El-Quesir”).

And course the Egyptian army, headed into combat, always makes
certain it has a good tan first. But in fact the ship they
claimed to have identified was a ship for carrying horses about
half the size.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:10 PDT 1996
Article: 35833 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L’il Tommy: Wrong Again (nu?)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 03:00:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 10:01:28 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[Dr. Larson stuff snipped]

>> He was not there to witness what he talked talked about. There
>> was no conclusion. There was a description of what happened. It
>> is hearsay.

>IGNORANT GIWER-LIE: Giwer once more, in the commission of yet another lie,
>demonstrates, with his profound ignorance, the implausibilty of having an
>IQ remotely near 163! Contrary to Giwer’s twisted interpretations, Dr.
>Larson was indeed present at Dachau shortly after its liberation, in his
>capacity as a forensic pathologist. Contrary to Giwer’s twisted
>interpretations, Dr. Larson indeed relates that he _personally_ witnessed
>the conditions of the prisoners at Dachau. This is NOT hearsay, but an
>eyewitness account, as Dr. Larson saw these things with his own eyes.
>Perhaps Giwer, should look up the definition of “hearsay:”

>hearsay – n. something one has heard but does not know to be true; rumor; gossip

>Furthermore, in regards to Dr. Larson’s conclusions about homicidal
>gassings at Dachau, we can see by Dr. Larson’s own addmission that he
>questioned prisoners in regards to what happened to other prisoners taken
>by the Gestapo. Indeed, the answers Dr. Larson recieved may have been
>hearsay evidence,

That is what I said.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.fyionline.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:24:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 11:27:08 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35834 soc.culture.jewish:48983 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19504 soc.culture.israel:32996

[email protected](Moritz Rothschild ) wrote:

>>Deny that they sank it? No. Killed some of the crew? No. This all
>>happened, and Israel
>>apologized. That was a tragedy, which boneheads like you are
>exploiting
>>for anti-Jewish purposes.

>This is not true/ Israel did not sink the Liberty. The Liberty did
>not sink . You have it mixed up with the Stark which the Iraqis sank
>and they never appologized for, never paid reparations, as the Israeli
>did for the Liberty and then were rewarded because the US entered the
>war on the side of the Iraqis against Iran .
>It’s amazing how one forgets so quickly.

Neither the Liberty nor the Stark sunk. Nor is there any
indication it was for lack of trying. What is rather more
amazing is the false memories going around.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35836 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 23:51:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 6:55:41 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>:
>: ># Neither the SU or the US was willing to sell HEAVY (got that?
>: ># heavy) bombers to any country in the middle east. I know the
>: ># policy.
>:
>: >Amazingly enough, the 163-IQ-point man still can’t give an answer
>: >to two very simple questions. It’s just incredible. He claims to be
>: >so smart and to know everything, yet he can’t answer two very
>: >simple questions, which are directly related to his claim above.
>:
>: >1) Is the Soviet Tupolev T-16 a heavy bomber?
>:
>: >[He can’t answer that one]
>:
>: >2) Did Arab countries in the mideast have T-16’s?
>:
>: >[He can’t answer that one either]
>:
>: >Why can’t you answer these questions? A simple “yes” or “no”
>: >to each of them is enough. Put dem 163 IQ points to work.
>:
>: Since you know, you first.

>He’s supposed to answer whether or not you think the T-16 is a heavy
>bomber? That’s one of your weakest arguments yet.

>Trying again to get the Giwer to simply answer a straightforward question:
>do you consider the T-16 to be a heavy bomber? Yes or no?

Not according to Jane’s.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:12 PDT 1996
Article: 35839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:49:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]ws.pacificnet.net> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 12:53:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>>Dr. Irving Moskowitz “says he is merely doing the ‘”natural thing for
>>a Jew”‘.
>> He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>>Holocaust.
>> Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>>at it.

> You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
> relatives?

>> One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a “natural thing” to
>>assert.

> Especially if it happened.

>> Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why “the
>>natural thing” is to just blurt out a gross fabrication.

> Well, I have never heard of the man so I can’t assert I know what he
> said is true, but consider the following:

> As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
> killed by the Nazi’s, it makes sense that several of the survivors
> would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.

Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
the manner in which they died? That is without even going into
other requirements for this to be true.

I don’t
> know anythign about Dr. Moskowitz’s family, but lets consider my family
> (fairly traditional Eastern European family with some Jewish, some
> Russian Orthodox, some atheist, and a variety of other things mixed
> in).

> My mother’s mother was one of eleven. My mother’s father was one of
> six. My father’s father was one of three. My father’s mother was one
> of two. In all, I have 22 relatives from that generation. Those 22
> produced about 58 offspring (there are enough people that I am not sure
> if I am missing someone without having a family tree in front of me).
> Those 58 produced about 77 in my generation. My generation, so far as
> the most current tree I have shows, have produced 41 offspring. So,
> just going back to my grandparents I have come up with 198 people. And
> that does not include inlaws!

But you are not going backwards only but mixing forward and you
have not claimed to have the records of their manner of death.
But then of course you are not claiming that the records were
preserved to be brought out of Europe either.

> Had my family been all Jewish and been swept up by the Nazis somewhere
> in Eastern Europe, given that the Nazis destroyed 90% of the Jews, I
> can easily see how they might have killed 120 of my relatives.

Learn about the arrow of time some day. One direction only.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lessons of the Holocaust (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:52:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 12:56:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>While these events are clearly tragic, and while I believe that the
>government of Israel has some questions to answer, I fail to see what
>this massacre has to do with the historicity of the holocaust. Why was
>it posted in alt.revisionism?

I fail to see what the orthodox history of the holocaust has to
do with revisionism.

If you folks want to talk anti-revisionism, get a separate
newsgroup.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 05:28:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 12:32:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>## Krema I in Auschwitz

>[Broad’s testimony deleted]

># You say, by posting this “testimony” as true, that they needed
># a chisel and a hammer to get the lids off of Zyklon B cans?

>Well, it does make sense that a can of Zyklon would be sealed
>with extra strength, right? You wouldn’t want the can falling
>down from a shelf and the lid coming off, right? This would not
>be very healthy to someone standing nearby.

>Let’s concentrate on this point. Your additional questions
>are equally dumb anyway. So, tell us:

>Do you think Zyklon-B cans required a chisel and hammer to
>open? Yes or no? Do some research, and come back with the answer.

One would have thought that before you accpeted the story as true
you would have researched that to your satisfaction and have the
answer.

But of course that is too much to hope for Doctor Detroit. It
would be a first.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 06:54:14 PDT 1996
Article: 35845 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!news.memphis.edu!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:03:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 8:04:33 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 07 May 1996 09:56:24 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!It may have taken 70+ years for Andersonville to change from a
>!Confederate death camp to just another POW camp and it will
>!certainly take as long for the image of the holocaust to change.

>That is of course your intent, but just like Andersonville, only the
>really WHACKED OUT will be sucking up to your right-wing revisionist
>crap.

>!One death or a million deaths are equal.

>What a hoot you are!

>!Anyone doubting my position on this can go to my website and read
>!my commentary on Ruby Ridge and Waco. I do not see a
>!difference.

>So in those articles you say ONE person was killed in each place?
>I wonder if Ted’s IQ was also 163?
>Seems there must be a point of diminshing returns in that hey?

Actually for Ruby Ridge you will find two rather than one. Is
that close enough to 1 and far enough from 1 million for you? I
would have also thought the Waco number would be close enough to
the same category for you.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35849 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He Invaded Jite’s Privacy
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 06:36:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 1:40:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Su Majewski) wrote:

>Alec Grynspan wrote:

>>!Rack Jite wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:03:18 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote
>>> and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:
>>>
>>> !Alec Grynspan wrote:
>>> !>Don’t go whining about Matt’s driving you off the net. You tried to do
>>> !>that to several people in Smartnet and Fidonet.
>>>
>>> !To that you may add that he call Bill Blomgren who ran the Fido
>>> !connect of St. Pete Programmer’s Exchange and the owner of Combase
>>> !attempting to get my internet access terminated. He openly brags
>>> !about succeeding against someone else.
>>>
>>> Geez… Grynspan knocks off one BBS and gets 7 people banned because
>>> they post liberal leaning messages in what he has decided is a
>>> conservative leaning debate area and then blames those banned for
>>> censorship. Gosh!
>>>

>>Why would I, a liberal in the most classical sense of the word, want to
>>knock anybody out of a conference?

>>I had no influence on the net owner. I never banned, nor asked for a
>>banning of any of you.

>>You are a paranoid, anti-semitic, homophobic, fascistic statist with a
>>delusional psychosis.

>>And those are your good points!

>>> And yes, after two of your point blank public death threats to me I
>>> forwarded them to your sysop ASKING if he knew such death threats were
>>> coming from his system. Bill Blomgren replied that he does not answer
>>> mail from stinking child molesting yellow coward liberals and that was
>>> the end of that. πŸ™‚

>>We’re all laughing at you Davy-girl.

>>>
>>> And now you got another group of like minded assholes to help you spread
>>> your hate, bigotry, anti-Semitism, lies, libel, and threats…

>>Thanks for verifying your infantile paranoia, Davy-girl.

>Oh. shit! Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water.
>Tell me it isn’t true. Muy Grossdick is here? I guess “revisionism”
>is as appropriate as it gets for him.

Yep, the little shit is back, as a squid this time.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35853 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A lesson in the tax code for Matt Giwer
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 07:03:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:05:04 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: ix.netcom.com>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: > Followups to alt.revisionism.
>: >:
>: >: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>: >: >> A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status. It is
>: >: >>unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>: >: >>involved with secular history.
>: >:
>: >: > The Indiana Historical Society seems to think it is very clear that
>: >: >the United States will grant tax-exempt (and tax-deductible) 501(c)(3)
>: >: >status to an organization dedicated to secular history and maintaining a
>: >: >Web site of its own, which presumably requires some portion of those
>: >: >monies. If Mr. Giwer thinks they are violating the law let him bring the
>: >: >matter to the attention of the relevant authorities.
>: >:
>: >: Are you suggesting that the historical society is a charitable
>: >: organization or that the synagogue is a historical society?
>: >:
>: >: Inquiring minds want to know.
>:
>: >Inquiring minds already know. As has already been stated, non-profits,
>: >exempt from taxes, need not be religious. The on-profit’s purposes (the
>: >first relevant consideration) and their activities (the other relevant
>: >consideration) must fall within one or more of the list in 501(c)(3).
>: >Therefore, a historical society is a “non-profit,” exempt from taxes.
>:
>: This issue is not now nor has it ever been non-profit status.

>Can you say “Troll”? The Giwer of course is lying to start this off. As
>he, and everyone else who reads this newsgroup knows, this all started
>because the gIwer was running around posting that Nizkor was a religious
>site, because only religious sites could get tax-exempt status. He even
>went so far as to say that no country grants tax exemption to
>non-religious organizations.

Despite your misapprehension, which never dreamed anyone could
have, my original issue was that it was the granting of tax
receipts and therefore a subsidiary organization.

>I wonder why the Giwer thinks that if he pretends that didn’t happen,
>everyone else will forget it.

Let us presume you are correct for the moment.

Explain how tax receipts can be granted for contributions to an
unrelated organizaion.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35854 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A lesson in the tax code for Matt Giwer
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 07:08:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:10:21 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: If in this case the number and donee match then the donation is
>: made to the synagogue.

>Uh-huh. And the synagogue would then give the donation to Nizkor, etc.,
>etc. But here’s a question — since you’re running around shouting about
>this — do the numbers match? Do Canadian tax receipts even have such
>numbers?

I am only dealing by analogy with the US tax code which I have
made clear, even though it may have gone over your head.

>: That was my original basis for saying that Nizkor appears to be a
>: religious organization, that is, a subordinate organization to
>: the synagogue.

>Uh-huh. The Giwer just conveniently forgot to bring it up until after you
>made his infamous comment that no country grants tax-exempt status to a
>non-religious organization.

Not in the least. But you know that.

>: That you folks are trying to switch this around to a discussion
>: of non-profit organizations does make it appear there is
>: something you do not want to discuss.

>That the Giwer is so clumsily trying to switch this around to cover up his
>blunder makes it appear that he is divorced from reality. That he has
>no idea how the Canadian tax system works, and that he has no idea of
>what the mechanics are of Nizkor’s relationship with the synagogue, makes
>it appear that he is just a troll blowing smoke because he has nothing to
>say.

Even if I did make the mistake, please explain how a secular site
such as Nizkor qualifies as needy to that charity can be invoked?

It is clear that Nizkor remains, if the synagogue is acting in a
manner similar to US law, a susidiary of the synagogue.

But then, no one has stepped forward to take credit for the
actual ownership of the site, that is, a person paying the bills,
so whatever is going on is still an unknown to everyone,
including its defenders.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35855 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Questioning Nizkor
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 07:13:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:14:52 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Who runs it?

Who pays the bills for it?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35856 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 07:16:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:18:23 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (tom moran) writes:

>> Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why “the
>> natural thing” is to just blurt out a gross fabrication.

> Prove it’s a fabrication you lying anti-Semitic hate-monger. And, you
>cowardly chuck of armadillo excrement , that is a direct challenge. Prove or admit
>that you are lying now just as you lied when you maliciously described the actsed
>the acts of the KKKK as part of a “Jewish conspiracy.”

Feel better now?
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:21 PDT 1996
Article: 35860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas bag
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 22:32:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 5:35:05 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Jeremy A. Litt wrote:

>>No, we remember the issue as to whether Calcium burns. You have stuck the
>>word “bones” in for Calcium so many times that it’s impossible to believe
>>that you’re not doing so deliberately. (Although I did note with interest
>>your recent backpedal, claiming that he “implied” bones don’t burn, which
>>of course he did not do — again, he was talking about whether Calcium
>>burns).

>Just a clarification: calcium metal itself will burn quite violently
>(I’ve stated that before.). Calcium in its +2 oxidation state will not
>burn. The calcium in bones is in its +2 oxidation state and thus will
>not burn. That, of course, says nothing about whether other components
>of bone burn or do not burn.

You mean even after I asked you if you were playing a juvenile
game talking about the calcium only and ignoring the organic
components? And then when you continued to play it?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 35861 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 03:52:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 10:56:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

>> In article <[email protected]>
>> [email protected] “tom moran” writes:
>>
>> >
>> > The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
>> > “eyewitness” accounts of what they saw.
>> >
>>
>> A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>> Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions –
>> Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>> given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.

>Mr. Baron, as usual, applies selective “reasoning” to the issue here. What
>he, and others who make the allusion to the Holocaust being like UFO due
>to eyewitness accounts, omit from their “observations” is that prior to
>the mass-marketing of UFO stories eyewitness accounts wildly differed.
>Afterwards, with the popularization of UFOs, they became quite homogenous
>in their descriptions, evidencing that a lot of UFO “eyewitnesses” were
>either very impressionable or simply unimaginative hoaxers.

In fact they were remarkably homogenous from the beginning also.
The first stories sparked the rest as imitators adding details
here and there for the appearance of originality. They were
immensely popular when they started having built upon prior years
of interest in sitings and speculation. When the first claimed
actually being on board the pattern was set.

It is much the same as the artist’s conception on Incident at
Exeter became the model for all of the big eyed greys that
followed.

>Contrast this with the eyewitness accounts (both Nazis and survivors) of
>the Holocaust. From the _onset_ they were homogenous.

Electrocution, gassing, suffocation and steaming is hardly what
one would consider homogeneity.

As importantly, they
>were also given at about the same time without colusion between
>eyewitnesses.

People spent years in the same camps sharing the same camp
rumors. How could there not have been collusion when those camp
rumors were repeated to investigators?

That such accounts by survivors continue to conform to the
>original accounts, unlike those involving UFOs, is then hardly suprising
>as they simply confirm the veracity of the origional accounts.

You could become a true believer in UFOs if you would admit the
same ground rules.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:23 PDT 1996
Article: 35865 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 06:58:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:00:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> It was stated his comments were about Jews when in fact they were
>> about Israel. So the lead assertion was false rather than true.

> They were about Jews and you know it.

And of course you know you are lying.

Everything he said was said about Isreal.

But then we do not expect much from someone so stupid they can
not master a killfile.

It is difficult to imagine anyone so bereft of memory as to have
forgotten the exchanges at the time where I pointed out he said
Israel as opposed to the claim he has said Jews.

What was posted was the same libel that was originally produced
by FAIR and their deliberate misquotations were well known befoer
some lying jerk-off claimed it was about Jews but failed to
doctor the post to convert Israel to Jews.

You are very uninformed if you are not aware of the genesis of
the source material.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:24 PDT 1996
Article: 35876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 04:00:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 11:04:25 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

># You folks rarely make commitments to anyone, preferring at best
># to post incredible testimony, such as gassed bodies giving off
># heat that is clearly worthy of note in the story?

>Giwer’s probably referring to the testimony of SS-man Bock, about
>a gassing in Birkenau (in the so-called “Bunkers”):

>Testimony of SS private Bock:
>[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein,
>Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
>chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
>p. 181].
>——————————————————————
> Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There
> was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing
> children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in
> and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
> SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
> ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
> was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
> were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch.

>

>Auschwitz is a pretty cold place in the winter. If many people
>are squeezed into a small chamber, and killed there, and the
>doors are opened shortly afterwards, there will be some heat
>coming out of that chamber.

>What is Giwer trying to say? Who knows. One thing is certain: not
>many people still believe his statement that his IQ is 163.

One, there is no indication of the season in this story. Two, to
have made this remark one would have to assume he had never
entered a room with a large number of people in it in winter.
Three, “heat was given off” is neither a reasonable construct nor
translation for meaning to say, “the room was warm.”

># So you can see why I have the most problems with the gassing.

>Because you can’t read?

Because you invent excuses. You could turn your talents to
salavaging the story of Noah’s Ark some day.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:25 PDT 1996
Article: 35893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 22:41:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 5:45:10 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>>Male’s are about 14% fat and females 22%. So females would be more
>>>exothermic. Exothermicity of fats can be measured in bomb calorimeters
>>>and are about 9 kcal/g (1 cal = 4.184 J). Furthermore we are ignoring
>>>protein, urea, carbohydrates and other combustible materials.
>>
>> Carrying through all the multiplications we have 0.1×0.18×9000
>>for 162 calories for the fat contribution from the remaining 1/10
>>gm of organics, using a male / female average. We are still a
>>few calories away from boiling away the water.

>Deception alert! If we have 1 gram of hamburger and 18% of it is fat,
>then it releases .18 * (9000) = 1620 calories. Mr. Giwer has no
>justification to multiply this number by .1.

You are trying to get this heat out of the organic material that
remains AFTER the 0.9 gm of water has boiled away. Therefore you
must get it from the remaining 0.1 gm. Even if we were to go
with your mostly bloodless hamburger with 0.8 water content you
still have only 0.2 gm to work with. But with a human body,
which was the original contention, you have to boil the blood
also to make this process exothermic.

Therefore after the 90% of water is gone you can only use 18% of
the remaining 10% as fat. Thus the justification.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:25 PDT 1996
Article: 35905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: sometimes unsolicited mail is not for the public.
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:11:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 148
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Return-Path:
Received: from rio.com by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com
(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id WAA25243; Wed, 8 May 1996 22:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:05:09 +0000
From: Chuck Ferree
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
To: Matt Giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer continues to hog this site.
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Chuck Ferree wrote

Same thing tonight Giwer all over the place and he don’t say
nothing…just babbles along. That’s O.K. it’s a free country,
even
freaks are allowed to participate in society…up to a point.

Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
> >Over 450 posts, many new ones, on a great variety of topics and
> >subject matter.
> >Chuck Ferree
>
> Hey, nerfbrain (a harmless imitation of the real thing),
>
> But you were a ranking officer?
No, I was a Lt. Trained Fighter Pilot, flew 67 combat missions in
the
Ninth Air Force. P-47 Thunderbolts.

=========

But did you not earlier claim to have participation of Dachau?
Fighter pilots parachuted out and grabbed rifles?

=========

You know my story, it’s been posted several times, also on other
sites. “Cybrary of the Holocaust.” Shoah, just to mention a few
authentic places, other than this Giwer hell-hole!

Pay attention, asshole. In April, I was assigned along with other

pilots (10) in all to 7th. Army Headquarters in Frankfurt to fly
Brass
to the concentration camps being liberated. That was my job for
3-4
months. The war ended and I still kept doing that job until, I
went
back to my unit and did other things army guys do. Now, I know
that
you have read this before, so quit yanking my chain.

=====

One more yank, please. When were you trained to fly multi-engine
personnel transports and how were you trained so quickly? Any
idea why people already trained for this were not chosen?

=====

Also, you got
Alec Gryspan involved in your bullshit post about that “other”
Liberator Al Gentile,

=====

There was never any claim he was a liberator. Only that he was a
war crimes investigator.

=====

who we never heard any details about from you or
anyone else.

=====

The more we hear about you the more curious they become?

=====

I think I climbed on Gryspan’s bones because you mention
him in your post about Gentile: “As per your request, an
investigator
of war crimes. Alec Grynspan will tell you where his name is
honored.”
Then you begin your novel about Gentile. I somehow linked
Grynspan to
you, maybe correctly, maybe wrongly. If I said anything to hurt
Grynspan, I hereby apologize to him.
By now, Giwer, you must realize that almost everyone involved
with
this site thinks you are a sick person…mentally ill! I do and I
hope
you get it fixed.

=====

Thank you for our warm wishes. Any answers?

> It is no secret today that more people were in Vietnam combat
> than the Army has any record of. WW II heros are no less
> plentiful. Got a real name, rank and serial number for us?

I never claimed to be a war hero, I said I was a witness and
Liberator, by virtue of being in the right place at the right
time.

=====

You are a fighter pilot who liberated a camp, was retread
overnight to multi-engine personnel transports, and was selected
over seasons pilots to fly around the high ranking officers.

=====

If
you don’t believe a word I write, I could care less. But no one
has
proven me a liar, like everyone has easily proven you to be a
liar.

=====

I don’t think anyone has to prove anything after these
disclosures.

But a final yank, do you know anything about piloting aircraft?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:59:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:58:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>: >The first statement is false, and the second is true. The first is,
>: >in fact, so clearly and obviously false that bigotry is one of the
>: >few plausible explanations for it, along with ignorance, stupidity
>: >and trollery. Care to choose one?
>:
>: What does truth or falsity have to do with bigotry?

>Sigh.

>Okay, Matt–I’ll go over it slowly, so you’ll have time to bring all
>162 IQ points to bear on it. Truth or falsity have nothing whatsoever
>to do with bigotry in and of themselves; however, when a person utters
>a statement that is utterly at odds with reality–a statement like
>”there is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>Holocaust”–it’s natural to look for an explanation. Ignorance is one
>possibility, but it doesn’t fit in this case because you’ve been shown
>quite a bit of evidence, and shown where you can obtain reams more.
>Stupidity is also possible, but we know that your IQ is at least 162,
>so that can’t be it. That leaves bigotry and trollery–take your pick.
>Personally, I don’t care; I’m joining the growing legion of people who
>refuse to try and dent your thick skull anymore. Later, Matt.

This is a very poor response. You have no idea of the difference
between evidence evidence and testimony nor do our self
proclaimed attornies. I spent over a week letting them dig their
own graves. I regret you missed it all or are lying about having
missed it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:27 PDT 1996
Article: 35909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.unisys.com.br!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:49:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:49:11 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35909 soc.culture.jewish:49047 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19515 soc.culture.israel:33026

[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>Without knowing who was killed, I would still surmise
>that few if any of the dead had anything to do with
>the rocket launchers. They were most probably innocent
>bystanders. And they were killed because Hezbulla
>put them in the line of fire. Deliberately.

>You also seem to have missed the point of the previous posting.
>There is a tremendous difference between an army of a govt
>that puts uniformed soldiers onto the battlefield and seeks
>out killers and between a terrorist group that puts young boys
>in jeans in charge of suicide attacks to maim and kill other
>children and other civilians. There is also a dramatic
>difference between civilians killed in a bus when the bus
>passsengers themselves have been targeted and between a
>crowd of people killed when a wayward shell misses a rocket
>launcher by a mere few hundred meters.

>For some reason, you are remarkably resistant to understanding
>these differences. I wonder why.

It is difficult to see why you continue to ignore that Israel is
the occupying nation in this case. If it would leave the
resistance movement’s activities would cease.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 12:35:28 PDT 1996
Article: 35936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960502: It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:59:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 11:59:43 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>> The total heat given off by entirely burning the burger is:
>>>>
>>>>> 205.8 kJ – 1117 kJ = – 911 kJ
>>>>
>>>> Save course we have only one half the “methane” you need to make
>>>>this work and the BTU equivalent of misc. organics is not up to
>>>>the level of methane. Your net deficit appears to be 1113 – 911
>>>>or 202 even under your best case assumptions.
>>
>>>Mr. Giwer’s numbers appear to come out of thin air. I suspect he is
>>>unfamiliar with rudimentary sign conventions.
>>
>> You have screwed up royaly and you know your fellow holohuggers
>>are as ignorant as you pretend I am and will not be able to
>>recognize the difference.

>Mr. Giwer fails to demonstrate how I have “screwed up royaly [sic].”
>I suspect he is unfamiliar with simple sign conventions.

You are truly getting desparate now that you have acknowledged
that you ignored my question about your juvenile game of refusing
to admit you were talking about the bone organics rather than the
calcium and continued to play the game.

You continue as an unethical person. You misuse your reputation
to mislead.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 14:43:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 04:52:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 11:52:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> But remember you are the one who relied upon the authority of a
>>chemist to arrive at the opinion of my ignorance of chemisty and
>>now he has agreed that coke fires produce HCN and that bones
>>burn. Those are two out of three of the things he deceived you
>>on and he is still stringing the exothermic combustion of the
>>human body.

>LIE ALERT: I have not stated that bones burn and I have not agreed
>that coke fires produce HCN. Neither have I claimed that bones don’t
>burn or that coke fires do not produce HCN. Mr. Giwer’ ignorance of
>chemistry, however, has been adequately proven.

>>>Proof, please. You;ve demonstrated so much anti-Semitism, I find it hard
>>>to believe that anyone would ever even find a time when you weren’t.

>> But of course your memory is so poor that you do not remember
>>which side started the name calling.

>Is Matt Giwer an antisemite? You be the judge:

No time frames but your deception has at least motivated you do
do some work.

You do need to divert attention real bad.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 14:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 07:54:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 2:58:22 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: s7.ix.netcom.com>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >Mark Van Alstine ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >: I would therefore urge Giwer to
>: >: >: support his origional statement showing that the amount of HCN produced
>: >: >: by the Krema furnaces used at Auschwitz would produce more HCN than was
>: >: >: present in the gas chambers from the homicidal use of Zyklon B.
>: >:
>: >: >What’s more amusing about Myshkin’s HCN emissions claim is that not only
>: >: >is it irrelevant, but it contradicts one of the deniers’ favorite arguments.
>: >: >They tend to say, as you will recall, that the vents for the gas chambers
>: >: >were so close to the SS barracks that they would have poisoned all of the
>: >: >SS officers. Now Myshkin argues that the crematory smokestacks would
>: >: >have produced more HCN than the gas chambers even if the gas chambers
>: >: >were used for homicidal gassings! And yet there are, to my knowledge,
>: >: >no denier claims of massive HCN poisoning due to crematory smokestack
>: >: >emissions.
>: >:
>: >: When I first posted I said “probably” greater as I did not think
>: >: much of the “close to the barracks” argument.
>: >:
>: >: Coke was used to fuel the Kremas.
>: >:
>: >: One of the industial sources is from the flue gases of coke
>: >: fires.
>: >:
>: >: Which of the above do you have a problem with?
>: >:
>:
>: >Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.
>:
>: How can I be backpedaling when that is what I have been saying
>: all along? Rather it is your distinguished chemist who has
>: changed his story.

>Keep backpedaling.

Agreed. You can not explain.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 17:24:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.unisys.com.br!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Six Questions Matt Giwer won’t answer (Round 2)
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:59:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 8:02:48 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35963 soc.history:5172

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>>>>Question 4
>>>>>———-
>>>>
>>>>> On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the
>>>>> production of “HCN” from burning atmospheric nitrogen:
>>>>
>>>>> It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete
>>>>> combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which
>>>>> contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but
>>>>> at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN
>>>>> as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and
>>>>> good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if
>>>>> you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one
>>>>> of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is
>>>>> some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds?
>>>>> Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so
>>>>> lets wait for his commentary.
>>>>
>>>>> …
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia,
>>>>> it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint – paint one door –
>>>>> throw the rest away)
>>>>
>>>>> Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how
>>>>> burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it.
>>>>> Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and
>>>>> NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical
>>>>> smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that
>>>>> coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides.
>>>>> The part that’s really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2
>>>>> enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to
>>>>> explain.
>>
>>>> As you know by now one of the commerical sources of HCN is the
>>>>flue gases of coke fires and coke is cited as the fuel for the
>>>>Kremas.
>>
>>>EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question.
>>
>> Deal with those you deceived. Many people claim to have never
>>believed anything I have posted. They believed what you posted.
>>I suspect they will be feeling differently about you than about
>>me.

>EVASION ALERT: Mr. Giwer has not answered the question.

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>–
>—————————————————————————-
>Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
>[email protected] Stanford University
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>”If it works, take it apart and find out why.” – unknown

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 17:24:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35967 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 06:09:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected].compuserve.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 1:08:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> The question, as always, is the reliance upon testimony that is
>>so often clearly incredible.

>If you mix Birkenau with Treblinka or Sobibor, I can understand that
>you’re puzzled. Between these two camps, the testimonies aren’t the
>same. And your posts are different of those of another deniers. But it
>doesn’t prove that deniers doesn’t exist.

“deniers don’t exist”? When pointing out problems with gassing
stories is considered the same as there were no camps and then as
positive proof of being a “denier” and therefore a positive proof
of the denial of the existance of camps it is quite clear where
the circular logic begins and ends.

More interestingly, anything questioned appears to be an entry
point into this loop. And of course anyone caught in that loop
is called all kinds of self-satisfying names as they have
protected the truth one more time.

Any question is considered a denial because “all of them pretend
to start out questioning and then soon reveal themselves as
deniers of the entire holocaust.” Yet in fact all that happens
is they are labeled by this circular reasoning and become
examples of being labeled rather than of saying the holocaust did
not happen.

The not very good fallacy being used here is that known
“neo-nazis deny the holocaust occurred therefore everyone who
questions the details of the holocaust is a neo-nazi.” One of
the problems is that their only concrete examples of this are
people who lead off with being neo-nazis and thus there was no
discovery of that involved. The other claiming that what would
be a more or less expected claim from a neo-nazi is the same as
questioning by anyone.

But it is the fallacy that is used to immediately go into the
attack mode (and it would take many examples to justify this
approach) rather than in fact DEFEND a truth which they claim to
be doing.

And then of course we find everyone is a self proclaimed defender
but the knowledge of what is being defended varies widely from
those who have professionally studied the holocaust who are quite
rare, to those who have made it an avocation with varying degrees
of analytic thought, to “what I have been told.” The
qualifications for this vary from degreed historian to
enthusiastic, untrained in anything amateur.

Yet they all appear to enjoy being in the attack mode with the
same ferocity and certainty.

So, what is it you mean by denier?
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 18:55:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:30:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <318a9e33[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 7:33:24 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>> It is good to see you first mention your wetwork. I presume I
>> can refer to it from now on? Not that I can claim first hand
>> knowledge of it of course, only that you talk like you have done
>> so.

>You can refer to it – but you don’t have the details or the
>circumstances. It would be even more foolish than your referal to Al
>Gentile’s messages without context or background.

The context and background was in the messages.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 20:38:09 PDT 1996
Article: 36001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 08:01:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 3:01:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >: .CA> <[email protected]>
>: >Distribution:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: Laura Finsten wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>: >: >>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>: >: >>
>: >: >>>[To [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt)]
>: >:
>: >: >>>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt’s response,
>: >: >>>and posted:
>: >:
>: >: >>># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>: >: >>># on you parents, get back to me. In the mean time, get back to
>: >: >>># your books to help your GPA. You are going to need it in the
>: >: >>># real world.
>: >:
>: >: >>>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer’s more-or-less
>: >: >>>standard reply?
>: >:
>: >: >>>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.
>: >:
>: >: >> To whom? People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?
>: >:
>: >: >STUPID TROLL ALERT: Giwerundian translation: People who study
>: >: >law know nothing about law. Those who study chemistry know nothing
>: >: >about chemistry. And only an ignorant, self-satisfied illogical
>: >: >troll who claims to have a 30 year old degree in physical sciences
>: >: >could possibly know anything about history.
>: >:
>: >: Why you amen corner folks would believe in clearly demonstrated
>: >: liars is beyond me.
>:
>: >Hmmm. Perhaps because the only place we’ve been “clearly demonstrated” to
>: >be liars is in your mind.
>:
>: >YOu, on the other hand, when clearly demonstrated to be lying, just go on
>: >repeating the claim. Or have your changed your mind about religious
>: >groups being the only ones which are tax-exempt?
>:
>: And I am certainly Miss Laura can speak for herself without your
>: help. Are you trying to pick up the women here?

>Troll. This is the second time in this thread alone you’ve edited out all
>of my answers and quesitons, and used the “I wasn’t speaking to you
>dodge.” Can’t you do any better than this?

>Geez, when a few months ago, you were such an inventive troll. NOw you’re
>using 3rd-rate material. Sad.

The >s increase and decrease as one would expect with an
uneditted quotation. What, pray tell, is missing and from where?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:04:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 4:08:35 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Are you then retracting your claim that diesels can’t produce
>## white smoke?

># It is not smoke. It is vaporized oil. More like fog.

>This is irrelevant to the matter of people spying on the camp
>and confusing this exhaust from the engine to steam.

At least now there is an explanation for the confusion, isn’t
there? There could have been such an explantion years ago if you
folks hadn’t jumped all over anyone who pointed out the problem
with the steam story. Now we have to go a bit further and figure
out why the place didn’t go up in flames early into its
operation.

Or would you prefer to go back to name calling?

># When the implication was death by CO it had to have been burned.
># We no longer have death by CO but by suffocation from oil in
># the lungs.

>The Pattle et. al. paper says that animals exposed to this kind
>of exhaust died from CO and irritants. The amount of CO in the
>exhaust was rather higher than under normal running conditions.

Then he was most likely in error. Perhaps he did not conduct
complete autopseys. You don’t call something that kills an
irritant. Sounds more like he jumped to a conclusion based upon
a measured higher CO level rather than actually determining the
cause of death.

># The trains, the open pit burning, it is clear there were plenty
># of sources of fire.

>How far were these from the chambers? Can you answer this simple
>question?

Who knows? There was never a wind?

># The question is hardly what temperature as
># any flame will ignite oil.

>How much oil was present in the exhaust?

Read the paper and tell me.

How did the British
>researchers manage to run these experiments without anything
>exploding?

Read the paper. Perhaps just lucky?

Or have you never heard of a fuel/air bomb?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:19:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 9:19:16 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: Because in the US only the IRS can establish who and for what
>: purposes such tax receipts can be granted.

>Congratulations, Mr. GIwer! You have succesfully removed from Congress
>its power to determine taxation! Let’s see, you’ve taken away the
>Congrssional War Power, now the tax power, — and given both to the
>Executive Branch! What’s next — the Executive exclusive power to
>determine who can immigrate to this country?

Do you truly confuse that with an intelligent response?

But in fact you forgot to give similar power to the President who
signs the bills into law. Even in stupidity you fail.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:46 PDT 1996
Article: 36033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.dgsys.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nonprofits — real, not Giwerese
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 08:07:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 09 3:11:34 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> > GIWER LIE ALERT: Giwer did not limit his claim to Canada or refer to
>> >Canadian law. What he said, and said repeatedly, was that U.S. law does
>not
>> >allow for tax exempt satus for “secular” organizations. Giwer was wrong.
>> >Giwer did not know what he was talking about. Giwer now claims he did not
>> >make the statement. Giwer thinks everybody is a fool.
>>
>> The mail, boy, the mail. Can a US organization having the power
>> to give out tax receipts for contributions to another
>> organization?

> Assuming that you meant to type “receipts *make* contributions” the
>answer is YES (as of 1980 when I and Larry Propp did the paperwork for the
>World Science Fiction Convention both receiving and passing on such funds).

To subsidiary organizations connected to the CON, yes.

That is where we came in, with the connection of Nizkor as a
subsidiary organization related to the synagogue.

>The only limitation was that the organization which received the funds be
>registered as a 501(c)(3) entity. I still have no idea what Canadian law is. Do
>you? I do not even know whether the IRS permits deductions to Canadian
>organizations. Do you?

No but I am aware that “lets copy this feature of their tax law”
is as common internationally as it is between cities in the same
country. But then, I have previously stipulated “if like US
law…” in my comments.

> If the answer to either question is “no,” there is a third question: why
>did you not bother to find out before you published defamatory statements about
>McVay?

I have asked questions and commented upon the appearance of
Nizkor only. So far as I am aware he is only a contributor to it
as it says on the gang of six page. I have no idea who owns it.
Do you?
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tax status
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:33:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 4:33:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>> Considering that no one has posted one word about the Canadian
>> tax laws with relation to giving out tax receipts to an
>> unqualified by the government third party, it is hard to see why
>> you would say that.

>Any registered non-profit (or, more accurately, not-for-profit)
>organization may give out tax receipts.

>Your statement is misleading. What party is unqualified? The recipient
>or the organization giving out the receipts?

In particular, I read on the Nizkor site that a synagogue was
giving out tax receipts for contributions to Nizkor. That
implies to me that Nizkor has some sort of subordinate
relationship to the synagogue. When I pointed that out, folks
here insisted that it is an independent organization.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36035 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The WWII Hoax
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:37:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4mt <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 4:37:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: [email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >:
>: >: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >: >Matt Giwer wrote:
>: >: >> Just wait until I take on WW II and it defenders arise against my
>: >: >>fierce assualt upon it ever having occurred.
>: >:
>: >: > Evidently Mr. Giwer was not reading the newsgroup when the challenge
>: >: >was issued to present the one or two best pieces of evidence to prove WWII
>: >: >occurred. Not one person was able to come up with anything that even came
>: >: >close.
>: >:
>: >: Read what I said and compare it to that little challenge. In any
>: >: event there are already two of us to go after WW II. A little
>: >: teamwork never hurts.
>:
>: >Oka, Mr. GIwer. Go ahead. Prove World War II happened.
>:
>: You appear to have a problem. Even after I clearly repeat that I
>: would be the one demanding proof. So it appears we are on the
>: same side on this one. Shall we issue joint challenge to the
>: rest?

>No, Mr. Giwer. What am interested in is seeing what you could post that
>you would consider ‘proof’ that a well-known, highly documented historical
>event happened. I don’t think you can do it, mainly because I don’t think
>you knw what you consider proof.

>I think Moran or Baron could take a stab at it — I think they;d fail
>miserably, but they would try to post something, because I think they
>really are serious Revisionists, as stupid as that is. But i don’t think
>you know how to build a case with evidence — I think you’re a troll who
>just likes to try and tear things down through selective observation,
>nit-picking, and deliberate obfuscation.

>So go ahead — show us how you would ‘prove’ World War II happened.

Refused. We are on the same side.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:48 PDT 1996
Article: 36045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew openly sides with Israel, against USS Liberty crew
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 01:21:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 10 8:21:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Alec Grynspan ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: Jeremy A. Litt wrote:
>: >:
>: >: > Yeah, but then you would have to make a pretty damned convincing case that
>: >: > reporting on a war “endangers soldiers.” So far all that’s been allowed
>: >: > is preventing access to keep the REPORTERS from getting killed, and
>: >: > forbidding publication of materials which would help the enemy.
>: >:
>: >: I’d suggest a quick study of martial law. The spy – reporter – would be
>: >: summarily removed back out of the warzone. The second time he would be
>: >: imprisoned for the duration.
>: >:
>: >: If he’s lucky.
>:
>: >I suggest a quick study of the history of press access during wartime,
>: >under US law. There’s a pretty good amount of precedent and history. If
>: >you’d like, I’d be happy to recommend a couple of good articles for a
>: >summary.
>:
>: What law? Congress has mandated nothing in law regarding access.

>Once again, the Giwer proves that he is completely ignorant of the state
>of the law. Would you like the name of a couple of articles? Would you
>read them?

Sure. Post the laws. Cornell does not carry articles.

>(I’ll give you a clue about that Congress thing. They’re very helpful:
> (1) The Constitution, and (2)we’re a common law country).

And I will give you one. It does not apply outside of the
jurisdiction of the civil authority of the United States.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Little German Babies
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 22:04:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 08 5:08:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Koenraad Vogel <[email protected]> wrote:

>It is not without reason that the world (not just “the Jews”) refuses to let
>the atrocities of the Holocaust rest. But do not mistake peoples’
>unwillingness to forget what nazi-Germany did for endless attacking of the
>German people. Germany, as a nation, must accept responsibility for its
>actions as a nation. This does not mean that _Germans_ are evil, and
>attacks on nazism should not be confused with attacks on Germany itself.
>After all, not all Germans are — or were — nazis, and not all nazis are —
>or were — Germans.

Unless one includes Israel under the “not just the Jews” the
perspective in your country must be quite different from that in
the US. But there are several problems with the “Germany as a
nation” position.

Even under a democracy, a nation is no more than the sum of its
voters. Considering that 2/3rds of the Germans who were alive in
1945 are now dead (unless some quite unusual demographics are at
play there.) Of those remaining alive anyone who voted in
Germany prior to 50 years ago is a male in their 80s or older.

But then in fact between 1932 and 1945 the government was one
political party. Your position makes no more sense than holding
everyone who lived in the Soviet Union, or the USSR as a Union
for Afghanistan.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36061 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The real holocaust and the holocaust of faith
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:39:52 GMT
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>Well, you are a rock. The Historic holocaust consists of the
>>>documents, testimony, photographs, the sites of the murders, the
>>>bodies, and the enormous amount of other evidence used to put together
>>>what happened during 1933 to 1945 inside Germany and in German
>>>occupied countries. It has nothing to do with antibiotics.

>> The bodies? I thought they were all burned and the ashes put
>>into the disintegration chamber or beamed up to the Enterprise.

>Citations please.

You’re probably serious.

>>There are at least 2000 tons of bone ash in the 40 acre site of
>>Treblinka, 50 tons per acre, all no one can find a trace of it.

>Trace of what? Antibiotics?

>> But then, given the life expectancy in the Gulags, it is unclear
>>why there was any need to gas anyone as one would expect
>>something quite close to the same number of deaths with or
>>without gassing.

>They kept those who might survive the work and gasses the rest.
>Soviet Gulags are a different issue altogether.

>> Given what is known about the Gulags and
>>presuming no gassing it is rather surprising to note there were
>>any survivors at all.

>What does this have to do with the Holocaust?

A basis for estimated life span at hard labor, of course. It
isn’t the sort of number you can get just any where.

>>>What superstition is that and what does it have to do with the
>>>holocaust. Is the stupidstition that Jews are an inferior race or that
>>>it is possible to build a superior race by killing off those who are
>>>deemed undesirable?

>> It is only the superstitious who, when confronted with clearly
>>contradictory testimony (even if they do not understand science)
>>can accept both as true at the same time.

>That is not what superstition is, It is also a stupid statement.

You have trained yourself to believe contradictions.

>> Consider yourself for example. These camps were in operation for
>>at least four years.

>Some were opened in the 30s. Had to kill of the enemies of the regime.

The longer the better.

>> Some expert on the suject can correct me on
>>that matter if they wish but I think we are in fact talking on
>>the order of five or six years, 1939 to 1945. You have also
>>accepted without question the average life expentancy given by
>>Alexander S(? never can spell it) in the Gulag Archipelago (and
>>get that one wrong also.) You would also accept an even shorter
>>life expectancy pre antibiotics.

>What does this have to do with the Holocaust and its history.

dense

>> Yet when faced with something in the same ball park in both the
>>KZs and the Gulags you do not see the least problem with throwing
>>in millions of unnecessary gassings.

>The Nazis didn’t have any problems, what’s yours?

The same sort of life expectancy for the KZ and the Gulags
indicates that gassing is not needed to explain the number of
deaths of course.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:51 PDT 1996
Article: 36067 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 03:34:42 GMT
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>: or 20 million, take your pick.
>: For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>: defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>: absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>: Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>: Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>: say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>: claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>: million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000.

>It appears not to have occurred to Mr. Moran that:

>a) Nobody has ever claimed that every Jew in the world lost 120
> relatives in the Holocaust, and

>b) Many people who died in the Holocaust were relatives of more
> than one person, making Mr. Moran’s mathematical analysis
> completely absurd.

Relatives of more than one survivor?

Since we have a 30% survival rate that would result in each
survivor sharing a bit over 60 relatives.

You are correct that Moran is wrong is wrong in one respect. His
calculation has a figured over twice as large as the official
number. It should only be a bit over 5 million not twelve.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 11 07:56:52 PDT 1996
Article: 36080 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 04:42:56 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22607 alt.revisionism:36080

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <