Giwer Matt, 1-1996 – p1

From [email protected] Thu May 2 09:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34241 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:10:32 GMT
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:24:40 -0400, Alec Grynspan <[email protected]>
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!> !Something you predicted over ten days ago. How do you explain
>!> !your stand up psychic routine?
>
>!>Some people, UNLIKE ME,have enough MISDIRECTED respect for ComBase not
>!> to make email from them public. Its really quite a simple matter.

>!IOW – you’re lying as usual.

>I’m lying?? Gosh… ALL YOU ARE IS A LIAR, I mean there arent even
>connections to most of your lies, its just made up out of the air crap.

>But this one is a mistake on your part. You see, not only do I know
>absolutely who the liar is in the case, so does George.

>If anyone here believes anything you have to say, they’re… hmmm…
>hmmm… WHACKED OUT JEWS! 🙂

>There you go Alec. You can use that as your spurious proof in the here
>and now that I, not Giwer is the anti-Semite around here.

>What a yuck you are.

You and OBC have so much in common you should get together and
compare notes. You two could coordinate your attacks better that
way.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 09:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34242 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:16:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made
>>>> publically available is actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a
>>>> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber.
>>
>>>Mr. Raven, if “Baracke X,” the gas chamber and crematorium that was built
>>>in 1942, was a delousing facility, why then was the gas chamber
>>>camouflaged as shower room?
>>
>> Upon what basis do you say camouflaged? That copper pipes were
>>missing?
>>
>>>> Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the
>>>> Germans were, and upon returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds
>>>> of things that simply were not there.
>>
>>>And your infantile denial, Mr. Raven, is typical of the Nazi apologia so
>>>often demonstrated by Holocaust deniers.
>>
>> So you agree with Ferree that he did in fact participate in the
>>liberation of a camp that did in fact have a gas chamber?
>>
>> You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.

> That would have been me. It looks like I was in error.
> I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
> while the camps within Germany proper were work camps. I did not
> realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps. I
> stand corrected. Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.

It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
you only accept without question or verification when they make
matters worse than what you previously believed? Why are you not
skeptical of this claim that is new to you?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 09:20:18 PDT 1996
Article: 34244 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:30:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]luc.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21444 alt.revisionism:34244

[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>Secondly, why do you infer Mr. McVay’s future or present tax-exempt status
>from the fact that he doesn’t work for anybody? Unless you know something
>I don’t (and I seriously doubt that), this is neither a necessary nor
>sufficient condition for tax-exempt status. But I wouldn’t really know,
>because I am only familiar with U.S. tax code … which brings me to my
>next point.

A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status. It is
unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
involved with secular history. But if it is religious history
that makes Nizkor a religious site.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 2 09:20:19 PDT 1996
Article: 34245 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:30:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >Here’s a somewhat interesting adendum on UFOs from Carl Sagan’s new book,
>> >_The Demon-Haunted World_ (pp.69-70,72):
>>
>> >”…Essentially all the UFO cases were anecdotes, something asserted.
>> >UFO’s were described variously as rapidly moving or hovering; disc-shaped,
>> >cigar-shaped, or ball-shaped; moving silently or noisily; with a fiery
>> >exhaust, or with no exhaust at all; accompanied by flashing lights, or
>> >uniformly glowing with a silvery cast, or self-luminous. The diversity of
>> >the observations hinted that they had no common origin, and that the use
>> >of UFOs or ‘flying saucers” served only to confuse the issue by grouping
>> >generically a set of unrelated phenomena.
>>
>> And no different from all of the gassing stories. They are all
>> anecdotal without the least physical evidence.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Of course, Giwer, does not alert the reader that such
>physical evidence exists. It does. There were cynanide traces found in
>L.Keller 1 (which had a gas-tight door) of Krema II. There were “corpse
>chutes” leading to the ground from from L.Keller 1 which were blocked off,
>indicating it was a gas chambers. (The “corpses” walked down into the gas
>chamber via stairs.) Not to mention that official Nazi corrspondance
>referred to it as a “gassing cellar” and “special cellar.” Then there are
>the aerial photos that shown the vent structures on the roof of L.Keller
>1, thus corroborating eyewitness testimony that Zycklon B was poured into
>four introduction columns (which were noted on the meorandum of acceptance
>for Krema II) and into the gas chamber.

And you are still dumb enough to keep harping on air being a gas
and therefore airtight is gastight is technically a true
statement.

Your four introduction columns are not supported by the pictures
or the rest of the testimony.

What else are you going to claim?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 09:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 34246 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:15:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>> Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>> there is none.

> You continue to make this assertion. You have yet to explain why
>Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical evidence (in
>Frank’s case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence that
>was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison. Nor have you gotten
>off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this miscarriage of
>justice was perpetrated.

Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
the property room? Testimony is not evidence for the manyth
time. The details of a particular case do not change testimony
into evidence.

And as I said in the beginning, oh killfile challenged one, there
are cases where a conviction can be obtained without evidence.
Certainly bank robbers do not need to be caught with the stolen
money as it is expected they will not have it. It is not always
necessary to find a murder weapon or even to have a body.

But here we have the claim of a million+ gassings in one small
area and the best we have are a few parts per billion of cyanide
and a few traces of bone fragments as physical evidence. Perhaps
you are impressed by that but were you on the side of the defense
I certainly would not have to suggest ways to take apart that
evidence.

>> >> You are a lying little shit and you know it. You know testimony
>> >>is not evidence.

> The teaching of every law school and every judge in the United States
>disagrees with you. For some reason I do not find that surprising.

That is of course testimony is numbered and kept in the property
room. That is why the oath begins “The evidence you are about to
give.”

You know, at one time I was told that the new entrants to law
school were given a few lectures on analytic thought and at some
time in their tour had to evidence same. I am beginning to think
I was mislead.

The marks on test bullet may or may not match those of the bullet
found in the body. The testimony of the expert may or may not
claim they match. It is the pictures of the marks that are given
to the jury that is evidence. The testimony about the marks is
only an opinion.

=====

Are you using your real name and are you in fact licensed in
Pennsylvania? If either of these is false would you please
provide the correct information.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 10:14:40 PDT 1996
Article: 34253 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:42:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: It is not hard to explain. I find the same interest in dealing
>: with creationists, people who believe in the Flood of Noah,
>: believe in Velikovsky, UFOs, ritual satanic child abuse and what
>: the political system of the US considers liberals.

>And yet, with the possible exception of liberals, Giwer’s tactics are
>pretty damned similar to those of most of the above. Creationists,
>for example, tend to pick some trivial aspect of evolutionary theory,
>present it as meaning something other than what it means, and draw
>conclusions from it which wouldn’t follow even if it did. Now, look
>at Giwer’s twisting of an insignificant phrase in the Goldhagen book,
>or his assertion that the Nazis couldn’t have had an official policy
>of genocide because gassing isn’t mentioned in the Wannsee document.

Now you are acting like a creationist as I have never made any
such assertion about the document. Why would you, like a
creationist misrepresenting evolution, misrepresent what I have
said?

>Note the similiarities? Note that creationists are challenging an
>established and universally accepted scientific theory, while
>deniers are challenging an established and universally accepted
>historical fact, but that each feel they can do so without any
>evidence at all. Note the glee in the voices of each when minor
>inconsistencies pop up.

The gassing is hardly a minor inconsistancy. It is like finding
a dinosaur with a mammilian head. And if you have not been
paying attention or listening only to the holohuggers, the
question has only been about these gassing claims.

>Sorry, Matt–you’re making the wrong analogy, here. You’re the
>creationist in this fight.

When you join talk.origins you will learn what you are talking
about but you do not now.

In the mean time the closest creationist analogy is with
believers in the Noachian Flood. Where did all the evidence of
the world wide flood go? God removed it. Where did all the
evidence of this gassing go? The Nazis removed it.

But we can also see examples of it in the “he who believes in
evolution denies god” approach. In this case it is “he who
questions gassing is an antisemite and a nazi.”

How can you miss these parallels?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 12:41:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34256 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 05:58:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>> It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
>>>>capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
>>>>
>>>> What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
>>>>into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
>>>>inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
>>>>Jews.
>>
>>>Nope. Didn’t happen. In fact, there was opposition to some of what was
>>>going on. Especially so to German citizens. This is why the Nazis were
>>>forced to move their killing sites either far underground or out of
>>>country. I suggest that the uninformed, such as you, Mr. Moran, ought
>>>to read a book called *Nazi Doctors* by Lipton for information about
>>>some of this opposition.
>>
>> As the truth has changed from gas chambers all over Germany to
>>only outside of Germany just what German citizens would have been
>>of concern? Are you talking about tourists? What does this
>>”underground” mean much less “far underground”?

> GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
> when in fact he is just making up lies. It has never been asserted
> that there were “gas chambers all over Germany.” Giwer may respond to
> this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
> a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true. he
> won’t respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.

Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
Germany?
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 12:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34262 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: keeping up to date
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 06:24:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:51:35 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>How do you know I never complained to the police?

>!They said so.

>Oh, you AND Grynspan call the local police of users you suspect are Jews
>and ask about them?

No. Asking after the person you clearly posted that you were
when you “explained” the use of a handle by complaining about
threats you received from another of your handles.

And you think I’m nuts for warning people they
>should not use their real names in this medium? You make my points so
>well Giwer I couldn’t plant anyone to do as well as you do. 🙂

Do you need another list of your handles, MS Stern? Forgotten
some of them?

>!The El Lago police department of course. So which one did you
>!file a complaint with?

>What complaint. Do you even know what your taking about?

>!>Is ComBase still doing that finacial investigation on me as you said
>!>they were doing? BTW, what’s your credibility quotient these days?
>!>On a 1 to 10? 🙂

>!That is not what I said.

>Bullshit.

What headers?

>—-begin message——
>From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
>Organization: ComBaseCommunications
>Date: 1 Jan 1996 03:16:13 GMT

>Did I ever tell you the one about [Rack Jite] exposing himself to a yard
>full of preschoolers?….

>Any rational person hates liberals. Don’t forget it is liberals who
>expose themselves to schoolyards.
>That is why you were brought to the attention of the police…

>BTW: I saw the message you have posted about the IPS I use. Seems they
>have determined that it is malicious slander. They have also determined
>that your only defense is to prove your allegations bout me are true in
>a court (in Florida) to a jury. They have further determined that
>material harm will accrue from that posting. Should you notice inquiries
>into your net work in the near future relax.
>That will only be their attorney determining if you are worth the cost
>of a libel suit. It seems youveither failed to invoke the anonymizing
>routine or it failed to function. The entire audit trail came through.
>It was an amusing read.
>—-end message——-

>And what’s even more absurd is that I didnt post any message about your
>IPS at that time. You lying scumbag…
>And you didnt answer my question.
>What’s your credibility quotient these days on a 1 to 10?

Read it again.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 12:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34266 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> > It came from the imagination of one T. Moran. An individual with
>> >obsessive anti-Semitic beliefs whose ability to do basic arithmetic (i.e.
>computing
>> >how many trees will fit in one square mile — a task he found impossible) is less
>> >than that of a reasonably bright second grader.
>>
>> So as to not have misquoted, he should have simply said all
>> Germans?

> No. If if L’il Tommy had wished not to misqoute him, he should have
>quoted him accurately. Something that you, for example, have yet to do. In fact,
>you do not have the foggiest notion of what Goldhagen said.

You mean everyone here has been misquoting him?

Still trying to figure out how to use a killfile I see.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 12:41:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34267 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then were did his 50,000,000 number come from or did someone here
>>>> misquote him?
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> It came from the imagination of one T. Moran. An individual with
>>>obsessive anti-Semitic beliefs whose ability to do basic arithmetic (i.e. computing
>>>how many trees will fit in one square mile — a task he found impossible) is less
>>>than that of a reasonably bright second grader.

>> So as to not have misquoted, he should have simply said all
>>Germans?

>Tell me what *his* explanation is on pp. 475-476. And after you read
>his methods on pp. 463-468 you inform this group again that he didn’t
>explain his method. The explanatin of the method is also called
>Appendix 1.

Try posting it some time.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 13:36:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34270 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:24:44 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>[snip]

>>>But in your case, its nothing more than a probe for Mr. Curtis’ “hot
>>>button.”
>>
>>>Someday you will have to explain the attraction to us lesser mortals.
>>
>> You amuse me.

>Yes, yes. That is obvious. But why?

I should make this a macro as no one appears to read the answer
when I post it.

Debunking is an old and respected avocation. That make
holohuggers, creationists, Christian Scientists (preferably with
appendicitis,) flat earthers, liberals, etc all equal targets of
opportunity.

Learning to deal with all of the arguments of creationists was as
good as earning a degree in propaganda techniques and the
exploitative use of logical fallacies.

This subject is somewhat different. Although it is heavy on the
propaganda it relies more upon emotional defenses such as “my
family” and “how dare you” kind of thing. As such it bears some
striking similarities to the liberal “starve our children”
approach to selling a unique version of the truth.

I am really quite curious how people let themselves get into such
a belief system and what I can only loosely refer to as a mode of
thinking. However it happens, there are people like this in the
world and I am interested in learning to deal with them. This
particular conference simply happens to have a high density of
such types.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 17:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 34284 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 22:52:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Alec Grynspan <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>>
>>> What outfit Grynspan? You could have supplied the name so I could
>>> check out this continuation of a lie. The more you lie the deeper you
>>> get and the redder your face becomes. Unless you are used to lying
>>> that is.

>>What lie? That I didn’t verify Al’s actual participation?

>>As for what outfit it was – once I checked it out I didn’t bother to
>>tattoo it on my forehead. I checked on it about 5 years ago, verified
>>the outfit and then tossed the slip of paper into a drawer.

>>Since I didn’t bring this subject up, I see no reason for you to call
>>anybody that doesn’t supply you with proof embossed on tablets of stone
>>a liar.

>>You want more proof? You dig it up. I just verified what I knew.

>From Giwer your pal:

><< Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You >people
>will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear. >>

>Seems like someone should have heard of him.

>LOL!

You folks certainly are upping the standards of evidence. Now
even the very existance of every eyewitness has to be proven. It
is not clear why you folks are doing this.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 17:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 34287 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The irony of birth control (was: Four Quick Questions for Milton Kleim)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:45:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Caesar <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Les Griswold” writes:

>>
>> Kevin Filan ([email protected]) writes:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Kevin:
>> >>> What would you consider an “activity calculated to encourage
>> >>> abortion among high-quality Aryan women?”
>>
>> Milton:
>> >>Some of the more pernicious “ZPG” campaigns, insisting that Aryan women
>> >>should forego children because “there are too many starving children
>> >>already” would be an example of this.
>> >
>> > The birthrates in Western European countries are lower than the
>> > birthrates in “Third World” countries, true. This is due, I believe, to a
>> > number of factors, not the least of which being the ready availability of
>> > contraceptives and the relatively high education levels of women in those
>> > countries.
>>
>> Ironic, isn’t it, that where birth control could do the most good, it’s shunned.>

>The biggest damage to the environment is caused by people in
>the *developed* world. Some environmentalists have claimed
>the world can only support 2 billion people, if all the people
>consumed as much energy and caused as much pollution as the
>average US resident.

They would claim it because they are idiots.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 2 22:40:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34314 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 06:44:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> If I made a deal with you where I would give you $100 for every
>> article you could produce from a major newspaper to show Jews speaking
>> out against something Jewish and you were to give me $5 for everyone I
>> could produce to show it the other way, you would owe me money.

>Of course, this is utterly facetious. It assumes that “Jews” do things
>that are praiseworthy and blameworthy *as a collective group* in equal
>proportions to each other. Even if you believe that “the Jews” do as much
>or more harm than good, you’re wrong.

And the idea is a absurd as what I have been reading here about
what Arabs do as a group but those are still posted by people who
hate all Arabs even when they are not Arabs.

Do you have any idea why those people are so hateful?

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 2 22:40:16 PDT 1996
Article: 34315 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B – Unlikely Agent
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 06:35:22 GMT
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >Ho”ss (and Eichmann) didn’t switch from anything.
>>
>> You need to be explaining this to JM not me.

>No, your’re the one who needs remedial (and psychiatric) help, Giwer. Not
>Mr. McCarthy.

What does that have to do with JM being the person you are
disagreeing with?

>> >What Ho”ss (and Eichmann) _did_ do was decide _against_ mass killings by
>> >shooting, by engine exhaust such as was used in the gas vans, and CO
>gas such > >as was used in the “euthanasia” centers of the T-4 program in
>Germany.
>>
>> Why did they decide against the CO program at Treblinka which was
>> equally effective and without the attendant handling problems?

>Let’s see…. In the summer of 1941 Himmler summoned Ho”ss to Berlin and
>told him that Hitler had ordered the extermination of the Jews the but
>because the “existing extermination sites in the East” could not carry out
>such a massive operation Ho”ss was to turn Auschwitz into a large-scale
>killing center. A short time later Eichmann went to see Ho”ss at Auschwitz
>to start planning on turning Auschwitz into an extermination camp. One of
>the topics discussed was what method of mass killing should be used.
>(_Death Dealer_, p.27.)

Excuse me but a secondary reference is not sufficient.

It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
unnecessary as it “changed” a policy of extermination in the East
to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a “professional
conference” at a tourist attraction. It is certainly not unknown
but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.

Someone posted a suggestion that the entire Wannsee protocol was
a forgery. If what you are posting is true then it is a further
indication that it was in fact a forgery.

If you folks really wanted to establish the truth of what
happened you would be comparing all of the contradictory claims.

>According to Ho”ss, in his memoirs, killing the expected “huge numbers” by
>shooting would be “absolutely impossible” and would place a “tremendous
>strain” on the SS troops. Scratch that idea. Subsequently, Eichman and
>Ho”ss decided that “only gas was suitable” as the instrument of mass
>murder. They considered using CO, which was used in the T-4 program, they
>judged that the production of the the amount of gas needed for Auschwitz
>would be a problem, as well as that too many “intricate installations”
>would be required. Scratch that idea too. Then they considered using
>engine exhaust, which was used to kill in the gas vans, but judged that
>this “was not suitable” because of the “expected mass transports to
>Auschwitz” would be too great. Nix that idea also. As a result of this,
>Ho”ss and Eichmann didn’t reach a decision on the specific gas to be used.
>Eichmann, however, wanted to find a gas was “easy to produce” and that
>would not require any “special installations.”(_Death Dealer_, pp.28-29.)

“Intricate installations”? when a description of a fully
functioning system at Treblinka right along the railroad siding
has just been posted here and save for the occasional bullet in
the head would have been quite satisfactory and much less
hazardous to the orderlies and occasion senior information
officer.

Again, if you folks were interested in finding out what really
happened you would be comparing these claims to each other.

>In the fall of 1941, before September, Ho”ss met Eichmann in Berlin to
>discuss the extermination operations against the Jews. Eichmann, after
>searching for months, has still had not found a suitable gas. Later, in
>September of 1941, as a direct result of Fritzsch’s “experiment” with
>Zyklon B in Block 11 at Auschwitz, did Ho’ss and Eichmann agree that they
>had found the “easy to produce” homicidal gas that didn’t require any
>”special installations” they were looking for.

But we also know that he knew it would only work so effectively
in dry conditions with a large number of “vents” to introduce it,
something that does not describe the converted morgues.

>Zyklon B was definetely easy to produce, as it had been in mass commercial
>production for years as a fumigant for pest control. It was inexpensive
>too. A invoice from Degesch to Obersturmfuehrer Kurt Gerstein (Chief
>Disinfection Officer in the the Office of the Hygenic Chief of the
>Waffen-SS) on February 14, 1944, shows 195 kg of Zyklon B priced at 975
>RM, or 5 RM per kg. (_The Confessions of Kurt Gerstein_, p.93-94.) Add to
>this that Zklon B was quite lethal, killed quickly, had minimal “clean up”
>problems, and the amount needed for pest control AND homicidal gassing at
>Auschwitz have been estimated have been fairly small- about 1,700 kg per
>year; then Zyklon B fit Eichmann’s requirements to a tee. (The Destruction
>of the European Jews_, p.570fn.)

>So, if Zyklon B fit all of Eichmann’s requiremnts, why would he need
>something else? Especially when he had looked fruitlessly for months
>without finding anything as good?

In fact we know that save for the occasional failures we had
death from CO in something between 15-20 and 30 minutes with a
system using many engines that only required the occasional
bullet and one of the attendant and consequent handling hazards
of HCN. We also know there were sonderkommandos who would do
anything to stay alive so certainly the coup de grace task could
have been assigned to them.

It is also unclear why one of the number two most powerful Nazis
would have been concerned about a few RM here and there when he
was obviously in charge of billions of them. It is not clear why
he would have wasted his time on sums that he would have ignored
in far less than the round off errors. And all of that regarding
only one camp?

And the clean up problems were far from minor. What we have so
far is a total and complete absense of any mention of the cleanup
problems regarding this pellet form vice simple aireation of the
room as is all CO would require.

Certainly at some point one of the despicable sonderkommandos
would certainly have mentioned sweeping up and shoveling the
feces and the pellets while still wearing a gas mask. It isn’t
the type of experience one would expect to go unmentioned. And
given the time contraints imposed by the huge throughput rates
one can not expect this to have been a trivial matter.

“Macht schnell” could not have been the operative term in this.

>> >For one reason or another those methods were deemed unacceptable for the
>> >scope of the mass killings planned at Auschwitz. After Fritzcsh’s successful
>> >”experiment” in Block 11 with Zyklon B, Ho”ss (and Eichmann) decided that
>> >Zyklon B would do nicely as the homicidal agent to be used at Auschwitz.
>>
>> But the CO in use at Treblinka was just as good as we know.

>Not in Ho”ss’s opinion (_Death Dealer,pp.42-43):

>”I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.

>”Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The Jews went straight
>into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>level with the railroad cars. An engine room equipped with various types
>of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>inside the rooms. In an hour’s time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on a frame made from metal
>railroad tracks.

Been here, done this, and the best we have is an HCN 10-15 vice
this and another report of 15-20 and 30 minutes for silence.
That they might have waited longer than the 30 minutes time to
silence in this case is of interest but not much when the mention
of extra waiting time is not in the other stories. One would
expect a good rule of thumb to be double the silence time.

And, FWIW, the T-Shirt sucks. Get the ball cap.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 22:40:16 PDT 1996
Article: 34318 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 02:02:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

>: > You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.

>: >All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer’s skin!
>: >Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he resorts to these
>: >baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention from his own
>: >intellectual dishonesty.

>: Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority?

>: Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who are
>: Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews? It certainly
>: appears that way. But perhaps you can find a way out of that
>: clear consequence of your assertion.

>INTELLECTUAL PAUPACY ALERT: The Giwer’s reading skills have apparently
>atrophied to the point where he cannot see how off-the-mark his own
>trolling is.

So you you can say these people are definitely religion jews or
birth jews?

>Mr. Katz clearly stated that Mr. Giwer when outclassed intellectually,
>resorted to ad hominem or irrelevant attacks, this time on the religious
>beliefs of certain persons posting here. That’s all Mr. Katz said. If
>Mr. Giwer’s eyesight is so bad that he cannot see that Mr. Katz nowhere
>discusses in any way the accuracy of Mr. Giwer’s religious claim, then
>perhaps it’s time for Mr. Giwer to get those cataracts corrected.

It would be clear you are in error had you avoided the overactive
editting.

>[snip]

>: > What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>: >The truth is fragile and always needs protection from the Giwers of
>: >the world!

>: The truth is in fear of me. You view me as far more powerful
>: than I really am. In fact I am nothing but characters on your
>: screen. But a superman like you needs protect your truth from
>: me.

>Mr. Giwer is disingenuous here. He is not “characters on your screen.”
>He is an immature troll of advanced years who refuses to comprehend that
>he will be intellectually accountable for the statements he makes here.

Accountable? Frightening! By who? You children? Or do you
mean if I should ever run or president? Do you not understand
how stupid you sound?

>: If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
>: what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
>: of needing to defend it.

>CONTORTED LOGIC ALERT: None of what Mr. Giwer just said is true. His
>own repugnance, true as it is, still does not in any way lessen the
>degree or nature of the attacks by him on the truth.

Truth! Underattack! And morph into superheroes to defend it!

Do you realize how silly you sound?

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 2 22:40:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34320 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:54:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>>>>holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.

>>>And where does this lead us.

>> It leads us to you being unable to show any bigotry in the
>>statement no matter which definition you attempt to twist.

>>>Gassing was the cause of death of what percentage of the 12,000
>>>non-combantants?

>>>Euthanasia programs exclusive of gassing(injections) were responsible
>>>for what percentage of the non-combantant deaths within and without
>>>Germany?

>>>Shooting was responsible for what persentage of the non-combatant
>>>deaths within and without Germany?

>>>Answer these with citations. Thanks.

>> You first. Show me the bigotry in the statement I made.

>Here is the answer I gave you in an earlier post:

>There is no bigotry in the statement per se,

That is what I said you idiot.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 2 23:52:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34338 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Jewish Propaganda Website
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:31:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 3:30:26 AM CDT 1996
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William Grosvenor <[email protected]> wrote:

>The new Jewish propaganda website is at:
>http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/holocaust/

>Baconlovers invited,naturally.

Muslims are the only ones who keep Kosher these days.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 01:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47146 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:11:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Caesar <[email protected]> wrote:

>>*Hezbullah* has only killed a few Israeli civilians.
>>Israel made 500,000 people refugees.

>You are comparing apples with oranges.

>Worse yet, you are comparing the deliberate and proud policy
>of Islamic murdereres who routinely and almost exclusively
>target civilians (“Devil Infidels”) with the Israeli policy
>of retaliation against those responsible and caught in the
>act of firing their rockets.

How quickly the truth is a victim in these matters.

At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
on those caught in the act. The claim was that they were
attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
limiting their attacks to only the militant wing. Either that or
they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 02:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 34359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:36:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

It is good to see another contradiction of one true believer by
another true believer. It is so rare.

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> # I’ve already say that this was wrong according to Hoess affidavit
>> # In that case, he claimed that he visited Treblinka and that
>> # a lot of Jews had been gased there before he decided to adopt a
>> # new way. And you know as me that this could have happen only
>> # after the summer of 1942 at least, or after July 1942.
>> # One could suggest that Hoess did an error with a date, but
>> # an error with a fictive visit?….
>>
>> Post the whole part of Hoess’ testimony, so we can see exactly
>> what he said. Possibly, he considered at some stage to shift
>> to using engine exhaust, and visited Treblinka to see if this
>> was a good idea or not. But, again, Treblinka began operating
>> only after mid-1942, and Zyklon-B was used to murder people
>> in Auschwitz since the end of 1941.

>”I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.

>”Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The JEws went straight
>into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>level with the railroad cars. And engine room equipped with various types
>of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>inside the rooms. In an hour’s time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on frame made from mtal
>railroad tracks.

Here we have a minor contradiction of another true truth
regarding the time to kill but it introduces a major problem with
another true truth of the 1000 per hour throughput rate for
gassing at this place.

>”The fires were fed with wood, and the bodies were sprayed every once in a
>while with used oil. During my visit everyone who was gassed was dead. But
>I was told that performance of the engines was not always consistant, so
>that the exhaust gases were often not strong enough to kill everyone in
>the chambers. Many of them were only unconscious and had to be finished
>off by shooting them. I had heard the same story in Chelmno, and I was
>told by Eichmann that these problems had occurred in other places.

And here we have the occasional use of a bullet being the sole
reason to switch to the much more hazardous HCN which was of
course commonly handled by orderlies and occasionally by the head
of political correctness at Auschwitz.

>”Another problem which arose in Chelmno was that the Jews sometimes broke
>the sides of the trucks and attempted to escape.

>”Experiance has shown that the prussic acid called Cyclon B caused death
>with far greater speed and certainty, especially if the rooms were kept
>dry and airtight with the people packed closely together, and provided
>they were fitted with as large a number of intake vents as possible. So
>far as Auschwitz is concerned, I have never known or heard of a single
>person being found alive when the gas chambers were opened a half an hour
>after the gas had been poured in.*

>Source: _Death Dealer: the memoirs of the SS kommandant at Auschwitz_; pp.42-43.

This must have been a bitch of a problem at the modified morges.
One presumes the term Leichen in Leichenkeller refers to what
grew in the dampness. Of course that would have been simply a
generic name or perhaps one of the German language experts here
find a different meaning for leichen.

It is also unclear what he is referring to with “large number of
intake vents” unless it is a reference to places where gas was
introduced. Yet we consistantly read of one or two person
introductions into rather small places. If anything is clear
here it is that whatever Hoess knew about the process, save for
the airtight feature in common with bomb shelters, was never
incoporated into the design changes to the morgues.

Obviously they would have needed to have been kept dry and there
would need be many large place to introduce this gas. Instead we
find an underground room chosen as opposed to an above ground
“undressing room” and a maximum of four vents each 9 inches
square.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 02:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 34367 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Message for Hitler’s birthday – zgram960420
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:21:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Dave ([email protected]) whines:

>>> Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than
>>> did the Nazis.

>>>In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders of the Soviets!

>> If the claim were that it had been done by many different and
>>mutually conflicting means of execution and it were a matter of
>>public debate who knows what might happen? On the other hand
>>Russia is releasing the records about itself.

>Neat.

>Just like Germany did 51 years ago.

You mean like steaming, electrocution and suffocation? All of
those were methods of mass execution only 51 years ago. Why
would you question any of them now?

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Fri May 3 02:13:32 PDT 1996
Article: 34369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:11:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jake Livni) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Caesar <[email protected]> wrote:

>>*Hezbullah* has only killed a few Israeli civilians.
>>Israel made 500,000 people refugees.

>You are comparing apples with oranges.

>Worse yet, you are comparing the deliberate and proud policy
>of Islamic murdereres who routinely and almost exclusively
>target civilians (“Devil Infidels”) with the Israeli policy
>of retaliation against those responsible and caught in the
>act of firing their rockets.

How quickly the truth is a victim in these matters.

At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
on those caught in the act. The claim was that they were
attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
limiting their attacks to only the militant wing. Either that or
they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 02:34:30 PDT 1996
Article: 34373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:52:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>After reading this edifying exchange between Mssrs. Baron and Keren, I
>would like to suggest that you step outside to exchange blows.

>As a newbie to this board, I was expecting greater civility especially
>from Mr. Keren who hitherto has demonstrated at least a certain scholarly
>air. But this kind of intemperance only invites further incivility on the
>board.

>When I chose to question a half dozen aspects of the legend, I tried to
>use restraint and respect. Apparently Mr. Keren understands neither
>concept, and it is not to his credit. Moreover, his attempt to push Mr.
>Baron’s button by dissing only the testimony of Dresden bespeaks a
>fundamental inhumanity that IMHO has no place in a public forum.

The “academic” claims of everyone here are certainly worth
dropping a quarter for verification. My experience in these
public exchanges started in 1980. My experience is also that the
grander the claim the less likely to be true.

Credentials are never to be taken as true as given. Were I to
dredge up old memories I could give a long list. But in this
case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates. Department
members are likely the same. (A department member sig even
vanished when I mentioned that point.) Note the near complete
lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
the internet.

Note here we have identification without what one would basically
expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
those claiming the credentials. One has to accept that
accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
fact available through this medium.

But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
questions than they are answering. The talk.origins FAQs at
least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
comprehension of physical law.

For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
transitional species. The holocaust FAQS are silent dozens of
examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.

It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
creationists. At least the creationists have invented their own
fabulous sciences to support their claims. The holohuggers have
not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
underpinning for their claims.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 02:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 34383 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:02:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 204
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Has Giwer seen a photo of the peephole with the wire
>> >mesh on the inside of the gas-tight door? No. If he had he would noticed
>> >the the mesh is not nearly small enough to prevent glass fragments from
>> >”flying into the room”. It is, however, small enough to prevent fists from
>> >shattering the glass….
>>
>> Sinister meaning alert. Keep in mind that everyone is starting
>> from zero here to determine the meaning of the design features of
>> the building.

>PAUAPACY ALERT: Giwer, in his dementia, fails to realize that everyone is
>NOT “starting from zero here to determine the meaning of the design
>features of
>the building.” Only Giwer is. The historical record clearly shows, from
>the physical, documentary, and testimonial evidence that the “design
>features” of L.Keller 1 indicates it was used as a homicidal gas chamber.

Continuting to refuse to answer questions I see.

>> And, yes, I have seen the picture of the one that was found
>> someplace else and then determined to have been the door for that
>> building. If we had the thickness of the glass we could shed
>> some more light upon this interesting bit of detective work.

>REALITY CHECK: One need only to reference Dr. Piper’s essay on the gas
>chambers in _Anatomy_ (pp.166-167) where he writes:

>”…The edges of the door and the door frame were padded with felt. A
>circular peephole, made of two plates of glass 8 mm thick and air-proofed
>with rubber gaskets, was mounted in the door at eye-level. After several
>incidents in which the victims trapped inside broke the glass, the
>peephole was covered with a semi-circular grille on the gas-chamber
>side….”

Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>> >anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>> >give evidence of any such forgery?
>>
>> I merely point out that anything that has passed through Soviet
>> hands need be viewed with skepticism particularly if any of the
>> organizations that are known for creating forgeries are involved.

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>give evidence of any such forgery?

Continuing to refuse to anwer questions.

>[snip]

>> >REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>> >anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>> >give evidence of any such forgery?
>>
>> Of the HIV stories created by the KGB? Or do you believe them?

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer resorts to the old denier saw of implying that
>anything from the Moscow archives is a Soviet forgery. Perhaps Giwer will
>give evidence of any such forgery?

Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: There were five Kremas with gas chambers at Auschwitz. one
>> >(Krema I) at Auschwitz I and four (Krema II-V) at Auschwitz II-Birkenau.
>> >All the Kremas at Auschwitz II-Birkenau were demolished prior to the
>> >Nazis abandoning the camp.
>>
>> So? Are you under the impression that they could not be
>> reconstructed from the ruins? Not physically of course but from
>> observation.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems to be unaware that the Auschwitz-Birkenau State
>Museum deliberately chose not to recontruct Kremas II-V so as to preserve
>their actual states for posterity:

>”The Museum’s decision not to restore the origional appearance of the gas
>chambers, crematoria, and most of the structures in Auschwitz II-Birkenau
>was undoubtably the right one. For example, the jury of the Auschwitz
>trial held in Frankfurt in the 1960’s visited the site of the former
>murder camp several times, and on each visit were able to treat the site
>as constituting material evidence against the individual Nazis standing
>trial, and indeed against the entire Nazi murder apparatus. More recently,
>this approach to the conservation question was clearly a factor in the
>decision by Unesco to include the Auschwitz Museum in its World Heritage
>list.” (Auschwitz: a history in photographs; p.262.)

Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>> >Krema I was converted into am air raid shelter
>> >in 1943 and is the only surviving structure that was used as a homicidal
>> >gas chamber. Will Giwer except the reconstruction of Krema I as evidence
>> >of a homicidal gas chamber?
>>
>> That would depend upon the basis for the reconstruction. That
>> would include the source of the information used for the
>> reconstruction and necessary design features that would be not be
>> found in a bomb shelter.

>REALITY CHECK: The reconstruction of Krema I did not include the Krema
>structure, as it was intact. The reconstruction involved the recontitution
>of the incinerators, trolleys, etc. which were dismantled and stored at
>the camp. (Ibid. Caption to photo 167, p.156.)

Continuing to refuse to answer questions.

>> But I see we are dealing with another bomb shelter here.

>REALITY CHECK: A Polish munition bunker that was converted to a
>crematorium, which then had its morgue converted to a gas chamber, and
>then later converted to a bomb shelter.

as above

>> Looks like we will have to go with the design features of what are left
>> of the other buildings. After all, it is your contention they
>> were modified for gassing.

>REALITY CHECK: The L.Keller 1s of Kremas II and III were indeed modified
>into homicidal gas chambers, during their construction, due to “the
>situation created by the ‘special actions'” (_Anatomy_, p.216). Kremas IV
>and V, however, were never so modified. In fact, they were _designed_,
>specifically, with gas chambers. It is worth noting that the preliminary
>set of blueprints for Kremas IV and V were completed on August 14, 1942,
>with the definitive plans, which included the gas chambers, being
>completed on January 11, 1943, while Kremas II and III were under
>construction. (Ibid. p.218.) The implications are quite clear: Kremas
>II-V, complete with gas chambers, where to be facilities of mass murder
>when they became operational.

as above

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as usual, “ignores” that the Crakow report in fact
>> >establishes, by forensic examination, that HCN traces were indeed found in
>> >the remains of Krema II’s L.Keller 1. This corroborates the testimonies
>> >and documentation that L.Keller 1 was indeed used for homicidal gassings.
>>
>> Or that it was used to kill off the rats who were eating the
>> corpses in the morgue.

>FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Giwer, of course, is simply flapping his gums again
>by claiming, without evidence, that rats were eating corpses in the morgue
>and this was why Zyklon B was used in them.

as above

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as usual, “ignores” that the Crakow report in fact
>> >establishes, by forensic examination, that HCN traces were indeed found in
>> >the remains of Krema II’s L.Keller 1. This corroborates the testimonies and
>> >documentation that L.Keller 1 was indeed used for homicidal gassings.
>>
>> Or used to get those rats.

>FLAPPING GUMS ALERT: Giwer, of course, is simply flapping his gums again
>by claiming, without evidence, that rats were eating corpses in the morgue
>and this was why Zyklon B was used in them.

as above

>[snip]
>
>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer of course “ignores” that such “necessary construction
>> >feature[s]” were either removed prior to demolition (i.e. the gas-tight
>> >door- which was found at the camp, the metal introduction colums, and the
>> >furnaces) or destroyed when the Krema was demolished (i.e the corpse
>> >chutes that were blocked off) with the possible exception of the vent
>> >holes in the roof of the gas chamber by which the Zyclon B was inserted
>> >into the introduction columns.
>>
>> And what of the necessary construction feature of a steel
>> reinforced concrete roof? You can’t have a gas chamber without
>> one of those.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer once more beats a dead horse only to end up
>bludgeoning himself in the process! L.Keller 1, the homicidal gas chamber,
>did indeed have a concrete roof re-inforced with re-bar.

as above.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 34384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick ’em, I’ll gas ’em
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:31:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 2:30:40 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

># You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
># do with guessing.

>Does this mean that your answer to the question “why did a ‘work
>camp’ have so many cremation furnaces and morgue space?” – is “I
>don’t know”?

Not in the least. Such a capital investment would have had a
design criteria that would have given a maximum expected
throughput rate plus as much more as the designers could add to
it, usually an engineering double. If it went through two levels
of engineering a doubling at each level is common.

This is nothing uncommon in engineering. Yet you are hanging one
of your hats on it.

># The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
># clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.

>God, have mercy on us.

At least you did not hyphenate it.

>Giwer, I’m talking about KREMAS II & III. Their gas chambers
>and undressing rooms were underground. I’m NOT talking about
>Krema IV, which was above ground level.

I will deal this this new assertion later. However I note that
others have posted that the undressing room was above ground.
But hereinafter and so far as you are concerned, they were above
ground.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34386 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 08:11:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 01 3:10:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> I agree that Chuck’s postings are threats and wish he would stop. Just
>> >> because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>> >> reason to intimate physical threats. There is no positive outcome that
>> >> can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>>
>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The “Al Gentile” showed up on compuserve
>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. “Al Gentile” is just
>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>>
>> Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You people
>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>>

>Its the “Avenue of the Righteous,” Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>planted his tree? I’m sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>settle the issue.

Thank you for the opportunity. You are aware Schindler’s wife is
still alive?

You are aware that in early April of this year she denounced the
movie as a total fabrication of her deceased husband’s motives?
That he was only interested in the money? (As reported on the
ABC-TV news of course. Of course I am only repeating what was
reported and there is no particular reason to believe the TV
news.)

When his Oskar Schindler’s tree going to be “ausrotten”ed?

But of course that would ruin one more myth so it will never
happen.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:28:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >> I agree that Chuck’s postings are threats and wish he would stop. Just
>>> >> because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>>> >> reason to intimate physical threats. There is no positive outcome that
>>> >> can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>>>
>>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The “Al Gentile” showed up on compuserve
>>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. “Al Gentile” is just
>>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>>>
>>> Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You people
>>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>>>

>>Its the “Avenue of the Righteous,” Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>>planted his tree? I’m sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>>settle the issue.

>We did, last year. No one heard of him. This was during a denier’s
>braoching the same subject on compuserve so a couple of kindly sysops
>(myself and another)checked out the claim. There was nothing to it.

>Ain’t that a hoot!

You folks heard of Al Gentile a year ago on CI$? Fascinating.
This guy gets around.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34398 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:48:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 12:51:10 AM CDT 1996
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Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> As I said, you really don’t understand scholarship.

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

>>> But I do.

>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!

>> Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought. History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.

>> Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.

>Actually, Mr. Giwer, my comment stands. The term “scholarship”
>is used broadly in university settings to describe the process
>of research in its entirety, from the conception of a research
>problem, through the collection of information (historical
>documents, experimentation, archaeological site survey or
>excavation, as just a couple of examples), the *analysis* of
>the resulting data, and its interpretation.

>And if you think archaeologists don’t debate, at times very
>heatedly, the significance of what they “look at” and its
>broader interpretative meaning, you’re merely blowing more
>hot air. I’d be happy to provide you with some references
>about “scholarly debates” in archaeology if you are interested.

Were you to compare the archaeolgist debates to the “the drawings
prove it true even though they don’t say it” about the morgues
you might not be able to stop laughing at yourself.

Were you to seriously look at the “if you don’t believe it you
are an anti-semitic neo-nazi” as one side of the “debate” you
would not be posting what you are posting.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:26:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:29:26 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made
>>>>>> publically available is actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a
>>>>>> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber.
>>>>
>>>>>Mr. Raven, if “Baracke X,” the gas chamber and crematorium that was built
>>>>>in 1942, was a delousing facility, why then was the gas chamber
>>>>>camouflaged as shower room?
>>>>
>>>> Upon what basis do you say camouflaged? That copper pipes were
>>>>missing?
>>>>
>>>>>> Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the
>>>>>> Germans were, and upon returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds
>>>>>> of things that simply were not there.
>>>>
>>>>>And your infantile denial, Mr. Raven, is typical of the Nazi apologia so
>>>>>often demonstrated by Holocaust deniers.
>>>>
>>>> So you agree with Ferree that he did in fact participate in the
>>>>liberation of a camp that did in fact have a gas chamber?
>>>>
>>>> You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.
>>
>>> That would have been me. It looks like I was in error.
>>> I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
>>> while the camps within Germany proper were work camps. I did not
>>> realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps. I
>>> stand corrected. Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.
>>
>> It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
>>you only accept without question or verification when they make
>>matters worse than what you previously believed? Why are you not
>>skeptical of this claim that is new to you?

> I have not done what you accuse me of doing. There is no information
> from my post just above to lead a reasonable person (with adequate
> reading comprehension) to draw such a conlusion.

> I did not state above why I came to realize that limited gassing took
> place within the Altreich work camps. If you ask me, rather than
> simply assuming why, I will provide you with an answer.

Feeble but an adequate enough denial that your fellow holohuggers
will support you.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 34411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:53:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 12:55:46 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>My question:
>>>>>How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>>>>>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?

>>>Giwers stupid non-answer:
>>>> What do those questions have to do with this being the official
>>>>Nazi policy. This is what was offered to me as proof of gassing.
>>>>It clearly documents something quite different from that. It is
>>>>the highest level documentation that has surfaced on the subject
>>>>of official Nazi policy.

>>>Answering questions on tests must have been hard for you, Mr. Giwer.

>> When studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be
>>asked a question on demographics which, given the lack of
>>censuses from the period, would be impossible to answer.

>Clue: Read(HaHa!) Sarah Gordon’s book on the final solution. Within
>that book you will find demographics. You will find that Jews were
>about 1% of the total population in Germany.

Instead of all of this crap why did not simply post the 1942 and
1943 census figures in support of your claim?

You will find that they
>paid the majority of the taxes despite their 1%. You will find that
>they were (it’s really hard to recall and the book isn’t by my side,
>but if you want to take issue I’ll look up the actual passages) 12%
>of the Landstag. They over represented their population in field of
>the arts. You also forget that the Nazis labeled people. In order to
>get state job one had to prove that Grandparents were not Jewish. The
>Loesener definition allowed things tighten up in the labeling of
>people. The information is out there, you just haven’t bothered to
>look at it.

>My question still stands and you haven’t bothered to answer it:

>*How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?*

Tell me. You obviously can post the 1942 and 1943 numbers else
you would not be pretending to make a point where you could not
without that ability. And of course your numbers will include
the places they were moved to in to 1943 count and all the rest
to verify your implication.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 04:04:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 202
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 11:06:47 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>
>> The “academic” claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>dropping a quarter for verification. My experience in these
>>public exchanges started in 1980. My experience is also that the
>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.

> Exactly. And as your claims about the “science” of the Holocaust are
> certainly grand in that they conflict what every Historian in the world
> accepts to be true, your claims are “less likely to be true.” And at
> the very least require extraordinary effort on your part to prove them
> true. That is, the burden of proof is most certainly on you.

What would a historian know about science? Certainly no more
than you and yet you believe you are capable of judging for
yourself.

>> Credentials are never to be taken as true as given. Were I to
>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list. But in this
>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates. Department
>>members are likely the same. (A department member sig even
>>vanished when I mentioned that point.) Note the near complete
>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>the internet.

> What you “were to dredge up” carries no weight. Do you have any
> specific charges to level here? I thought not.

A question is not a charge.

But just to save you
> the quarter, here is what you will find about me if you check the
> University of Arizona (my alma mater) on-line card catalog under my
> name:

> CALL # Micro fiche E9791 1995 86
> AUTHOR Mittleman, Daniel David, 1958-
> TITLE Architectural programming toolbox : using group support
> systems technology to increase the effectiveness of user
> participation in architectural programming (PHD Dissertation)
> PUBLISHER Tucson, Arizona : University of Arizona, 1995.

> I suspect that Dr. Keren’s, and Judge Edeiken’s credentials are also
> available on-line.

> All in all, you are making vague charges with no evidence to back them
> up. So, basically, what we have here is more Giwer hot air. And
> nothing more.

> I should add here that I have spent four years posting in
> alt.revisionism without ever discussing my background or credentials.
> In general, I am not too impressed by people’s credentials. What I
> find much more important is the manner in which people present and
> defend their arguments. I am a bit uncomfortable about posting this
> information about me, but I feel that Giwer’s assertions merit a
> response.

And I would not ordinarily do so either. Yet there were posts
made by others. The first group were claiming I did not know
anything about science and the second group pointing to others as
authorities because of credentials. As such matters were
introduced by others they are certainly fair game for me to
discuss.

>> Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>those claiming the credentials. One has to accept that
>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>fact available through this medium.

> I suspect that a careful analysis of the post here over time will
> demonstrate that the academics are careful to provide detailed
> citations when appropriate. I suspect that a careful analysis of
> previous posts between the academics and you will indicate that the
> academics began by carefully citing sources and found that you showed
> no interest or skill in actively discussing the key points in those
> sources LET ALONE READING ANY OF THEM. I suspect that interviews with
> all of the academics regularly posting here would reveal that none of
> them has any respect for you at all and considers that you, at this
> point in time, merit nothing more than ridicule.

But in this case we have people in computer science claiming to
know science.

And you will note that not only do I read most all of what is
posted here in support of the claims I also comment upon them
when they contain conflicting details, either with physical law
or other such posts. Thus it is unclear why you would make the
claim that I do not read what is posted here.

And as for your academics posting here, which are declared
specialists upon the holocaust? A truly multidisciplinary
approach would certainly consider all inputs as equal rather than
ridiculing that which they are unprepared to understand.

> Case in point: why should anyone (let alone a scholar) try to debate
> Goldhagen’s thesis with you when you:

> 1. HAVEN’T EVEN READ THE BOOK
> 2. Misrepresent what is put in front of you in this conference
> 3. Focus in on miniscule unimportant points from the book and refuse to
> drop them even when it is demonstrated you are wrong.

I have commented upon what was posted here. Any misreprestation
that you see is you not liking the consequences of what was
posted. According to what was posted here about the book the
“miniscule” point has been blaiming every German for the actions
of the SS.

You folks have cherished myths that exist independent of each
other and you will not face the consequences of those myths or of
comparing those myths to each other. Why you have those
problems, I have no idea.

>> But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
>>questions than they are answering. The talk.origins FAQs at
>>least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
>>lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
>>comprehension of physical law.

> The Nizker FAQ does essentially the same thing. Have you read it?

Several of them. And, as you know, I have posted some of the
conflicting truths and false to physical fact and law in them.
Are you saying you have not read what I have posted? Are you
saying you have not read my many references within other messages
to the conflicts in the Nizkor FAQs as related to the point I am
addressing?

Why are you either a) making that claim or b) not reading what I
post here before you form an opinion?

>> For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
>>transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
>>transitional species. The holocaust FAQS are silent [on] dozens of
>>examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
>>dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.

> As I look up the 66 Questions and Responses at Nizkor, I find in the
> middle of them the questions on Zyklon-B:

Back up and read. The subject is CO.

> “27.What kind of gas was used by the Nazis in concentration camps?

> 28.For what purpose was, and is, this gas manufactured?

> 29.Why did they use this instead of a gas more suitable for mass
> extermination?

> 30.How long does it take to ventilate fully an area fumigated by
> Zyklon-B?

> 31.Auschwitz commandant Hoss said that his men would enter the gas
> chamber ten minutes after the Jews had died and remove them. How do
> you explain this?

> 32.Hoss said in his confession that his men would smoke cigarettes as
> they pulled the dead Jews out of the gas chambers ten minutes after
> gassing. Isn’t Zyklon-B explosive?”

> And of course the answers to these questions are posted as well. You
> are right that there are no CO questions and answers, apparently
> because the IHR had not raised this point. Possibly the Nizkor
> volunteers will assemble answers regarding CO (if they perceive it is
> more than one lunatic who is asserting the matter is of importance.)

Why would ONLY the interest of the IHR provoke such effort? That
indicates it has chosen the IHR as its enemy and acts only in
response to what they do. I thought the purpose was an extensive
documentation of event and available material despite its use of
the near worthless REGEX for searching.

But as another example, you had to throw in the “lunatic” yet the
times I gave are the shortest and longest that have been posted
here from “eyewitness” testimony. They they must be the lunatics
you are referring to. And yet those lunatics are the basis for
the stories.

>> It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
>>creationists. At least the creationists have invented their own
>>fabulous sciences to support their claims. The holohuggers have
>>not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
>>underpinning for their claims.

> It is not necessary to. Real science works just fine.

Do to your ignorance of the subject, you are unaware that it does
not.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34413 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:50:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:51:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:18961 alt.discrimination:46388 alt.revisionism:34413 alt.skinheads:21553 can.politics:42232

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:

>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?

>: Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor. Who was it who
>: said, Jews never forget?

>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?

>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34427 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:09:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]m> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:08:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:
> That was also when the serious debunking
>> >>started lead by Paul Klass.

>The name is Philip J. Klass; his books are a mine of information; he shoots down
>all the loonies who claim to have been abducted by aliens and all the people
>who claim there was a government cover-up.

I always get his first name confused. I think I first came
across him as a columnist in the trade mag Electronics Design
talking about why seen over power stations. That was between the
days of people being given free rides and abductions.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34428 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:11:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:10:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>[To [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt)]

>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt’s response,
>and posted:

># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
># on you parents, get back to me. In the mean time, get back to
># your books to help your GPA. You are going to need it in the
># real world.

>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer’s more-or-less
>standard reply?

>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.

To whom? People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34429 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The real holocaust and the holocaust of faith
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:11:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:10:44 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>>Hey Dan,

>>>>Chuckee is a great fan of yours, and a devout believer in the gassings. And
>>>>Jesus.

>>>> Heck, if you can believe that a man raised the dead, rose from the
>>>>dead himself, walked on the water, turned water into wine, duelled with the
>>>>Devil in the desert AND was born of a virgin, well Dan, mass gassings aren’t
>>>>that much of a leap of faith, are they?

>>>This is the Jesus of faith and not the historical Jesus, btw.

>> And there is the historical holocaust and the holocaust of faith.

>>The real holocaust is borne of truth and death and destruction of
>>millions of people. The holocaust of faith is borne by the many
>>more millions who were born after it who continue the true faith
>>based upon war propaganda

>These examples of War propaganda are?(fill in the blanks):

>> It is time that those who have given up their faith in their god
>>give up their faith in their holocaust.

>What of the Historical Holocaust? Isn’t that real? Where is there
>faith in reality?

Which historic holocaust? The work camps in the pre-antibiotic
era where the life span was shorter than the the seven year life
span in the post-antibiotic era of the gulags or the one where
gassing is required to achieve a lesser result?

>People have faith that God exists or that Jesus was the Son of God.
>This is faith. Hope. I can’t seem to put together a “faith” for the
>holocaust. What is this faith?

This has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with
superstition.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Psychic Flash Alert!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:21:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:17:54 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Michael P. Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> You mean you know the correct name of a company you have
>>>previously stated you know nothing about? Not surprising for a
>>>person who can accurately predict the future.
>>>
>>> You are very stupid. You fall for even the most trivial tricks.
>>
>> My hat’s off to Mr. Giwer. He successfully tricked Mr. McFee into
>>using the very same company name that Mr. Giwer had himself used in the
>>post to which Mr. McFee responded. I am truly at a loss for words to
>>describe how impressive I find this display of cunning.
>>
>> I have no idea why Mr. Giwer thinks this is a significant
>>accomplishment, or what it proves beyond the fact that Mr. McFee can
>>accurately read, understand, and repeat text that Mr. Giwer has written
>>(which is certainly more than Mr. Giwer is capable of). But it obviously
>>has some profound meaning to Mr. Giwer. Perhaps someday he might care to
>>share it with those who are not 163 IQ types.

> I have just received a psychic flash.

> I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>”Internet Indirect” in response to Mr. Giwer’s posted statement about
>”Internet Indirect.”

> You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn’t come
>true.

Rather I would suggest that when I posted “indirect” the
respondant post “direct” as my evidence but then you folks are so
used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
to those who care to find the truth.

But in doing so you folks are setting lines of battle. May the
best man beat the lot of you liars.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:22:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:19:21 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

># As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
># Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
># countries in the middle east.

>What about the Soviet Tupolev T-16 bomber?

>Egypt and Iraq had them.

>Rest assured, folks: no matter what he’s talking about, Giwer
>will make a fool of himself.

>Note the pigheaded arrogance: “if you had any knowledge…”.

And the source of your information that the T-16 is a heavy
bomber in addition to the source of your information as to the
countries that have them? And while you are reading Janes, look
up the bomb loadout configurations it can carry. You are going
to have to learn this stuff some day.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34434 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:33:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 5:31:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>## I’m talking about the Wetzel-Lohse letter.

>># And I am talking about what I was given as evidence.

>>It was given to you as evidence.

>>## No. Mass murder of the Jews was the offical policy. The Wannsee
>>## Protocol does clearly state that the Jews “fit for work”
>>## will be murdered. You do not deny this.

>># Would you care to quote the lines that say that?

>>We’ve been through this, have we not?

>>Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference, January 20
>>1942, regarding the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question”
>>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
>>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 210-216]
>>—————————————————————

>>[…]

>>Under proper direction the Jews should now in the course of the
>>Final Solution be brought to the East in a suitable way for use
>>as labor. In big labor gangs, with separation of the sexes, the
>>Jews capable of work are brought to these areas and employed in
>>road building, in which task undoubtedly a great part will fall
>>out through natural diminution.

>There it is for Giwer to ignore. Gee, Dan, what does “Final Solution”
>mean and why the word *Final*? Why should a great part fall out
>through natural diminution?

For the same reason the life expectancy in the gulags was seven
years.

>Why just Jews? What’s all this concern over rounding up Jews?

>Doesn’t seem stupid to kill the labor force off through work? Why
>would they have to die because of work? Won’t they be fed properly and
>housed properly enough to suit the human condition?

Such brilliance. “Why would they die off from work?” A man who
has never heard of the gulags.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An SS Diary entry
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:22:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:25:18 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>## A madman shot sixteen children to death. Some were wounded.
>## One of them, a five-year-old by the name of Ryan Cori if I
>## recall correctly, survived two bullets that passed through
>## his chest.
>
># And you are saying he had three bullets in the head at
># the same time?
>
>No. I’m saying that some of the SS-men either missed their
>targets, or didn’t fire exactly the amount of bullets
>that was specified. They may have fired, saw the victim
>fall, and stopped firing. That 2 out of 23 survived the
>initial salvos isn’t that surprising.

That is not the description given.

Missed at any distance that would have prevented running away?
How?

The “exact amount” of bullets was one per person firing.

But even more to the point, the description of surviving for some
time, apparently disturbing to the narrator, doesn’t mention a
simple additional bullet to finish them off. The way the story
reads is as though there were orders against more than six shots.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:26:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:28:52 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> I agree that Chuck’s postings are threats and wish he would stop. Just
>>>> >> because Giwer is a [oh, fill in the blank with your own insult], is no
>>>> >> reason to intimate physical threats. There is no positive outcome that
>>>> >> can be realized from making such threats, idle or not.
>>>>
>>>> >I agree, Chuck get excited. The “Al Gentile” showed up on compuserve
>>>> >in the postings of Swiger(I think). It may have been before I met Ken
>>>> >McVay so the stuff may not be up on Nizkor. “Al Gentile” is just
>>>> >another hoax from the distortionists. Quite obvious too.
>>>>
>>>> Even though his name is in the Hall of the Righteous? You people
>>>> will go to any lengths to slander those you do not want to hear.
>>>>

>>>Its the “Avenue of the Righteous,” Giwer. You know, where Oskar Schindler
>>>planted his tree? I’m sure once somebody contacts Yad Vashem and ask if
>>>this alleged Al Gentile was indeed declared a Righteous Gentile, we can
>>>settle the issue.

>> Thank you for the opportunity. You are aware Schindler’s wife is
>>still alive?

>> You are aware that in early April of this year she denounced the
>>movie as a total fabrication of her deceased husband’s motives?
>>That he was only interested in the money? (As reported on the
>>ABC-TV news of course. Of course I am only repeating what was
>>reported and there is no particular reason to believe the TV
>>news.)

>> When his Oskar Schindler’s tree going to be “ausrotten”ed?

>> But of course that would ruin one more myth so it will never
>>happen.

>Hey, Giwer! Hello! Hello! What does the above have to do with the Al
>Gentile claim? LOL!

As you will notice you have offered to conduct the verification
so at this time we are simply awaiting the response. I was sort
of suggesting that while you are in contact he find out when they
are going to get rid of his tree.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34437 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Superheroes defending the truth
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:35:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:37:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

> snipped of course where it would detract from your false
> pretention

>The nerve! Everyone knows that only Mr. Giwer has the right to snip
>out text that undermines his arguments!

You folks should get together on whether you are going to accuse
me of editing too much or too little. You would look less silly.

> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>–Matt “I said it, but I will blame you for it!” Giwer

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>All truth needs protection from the Giwers of the world.

We do have quite a conspiracy going. Our next target is the Cold
War. In five more years, no one will believe it ever happened.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Message for Hitler’s birthday – zgram960420
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 23:50:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 6:48:09 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:865 alt.revisionism:34442 alt.politics.nationalism.white:18965

[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Dave ([email protected]) whines:

>>>>> Incase you missed it. The Soviets killed far more people than
>>>>> did the Nazis.

>>>>>In case Mr. Dave missed it, no one disputes the murders of the Soviets!

>>>> If the claim were that it had been done by many different and
>>>>mutually conflicting means of execution and it were a matter of
>>>>public debate who knows what might happen? On the other hand
>>>>Russia is releasing the records about itself.

>>>Neat.

>>>Just like Germany did 51 years ago.

>> You mean like steaming, electrocution and suffocation? All of
>>those were methods of mass execution only 51 years ago. Why
>>would you question any of them now?

>No, idiot. you missed the point.

>Germany released the records on the extermination programs at the end
>of the war. They played a major part in the Nurnberg trials.

Released is hardly the word for it and there were charges of
steaming during the trials. Yet like today the documents have to
be looked with the presumption of the conclusion to determine
what they mean.

The “witnesses” provide the conclusion and then the documents
have “this has to be what they were talking about, look how
cleverly they avoided using the damning words.”

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:00:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:59:57 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: comedy of the absurd?

>Because you apparently “did it” for twenty years without having the
>slightest idea of how “it” is done? I dunno, just a guess…

How would a college kid like you know?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34450 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, a labor of hate
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:22:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 8:19:01 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>I responded:

> What kind of slime attacks the truth?

>To which Mr. Giwer brings all of his brilliance to bear:

> What would the “truth” care?

>The truth does not have feelings, so it does not care, but those of
>us who cherish the truth do care. Having failed miserably to ram his
>lies down our throats, Mr. Giwer is reduced to whining that the truth
>itself is not so harsh as its defenders!

Unless one is a member of the League of Superhero Defendeners of
the Truth, why would one care?

You superheroes have such an image of your selves with an equally
strange idea of the cherishing when you will deliberately deceive
(burning bones and HCN in coke fire gases) when it suits your
purpose. There is no commitment to the truth only hypocrisy.

> 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>–Matt “I siad it, but I will blame you for it!” Giwer

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>Any truth that Mr. Giwer can distort.

Reading murder where there is no murder in the Wannsee protocol
is distortion. Claiming the orginal plans prior to the document
was other than emigration is distortion. Starting with a
conclusion is a distortion.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:34:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:45:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 8:43:16 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:20:19 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>>>wrote:

>>>[snip]

>>>> There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>>>>holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.

>>>It’s bigotry if you know better, ignorance if you don’t.

>> It may be foolish, it may be dumb, but there is no bigotry in the
>>statement. You many consult any dictionary in whose list of
>>defintions you find one you can twist into supporting your absurd
>>claim.

> No twisting required.

>big.ot.ry \’big-*-tre-\ n : the state of mind of a bigot; also : behavior
> or beliefs ensuing from such a state of mind

>big.ot \’big-*t\ n [MF, hypocrite, bigot] : one obstinately or
>intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion

>Source:
> Linkname: Webster’s Dictionary
> URL: http://civil.colorado.edu/htbin/dictionary?bigot

> You have been apprised of the letter from Bischoff to Kammler speaking
>of a “Vergasungskeller.” You have been apprised of the orders for a
>gas-tight door. (You will have to take up the issue of why it said
>”Gasdichtetur” rather than “Luftdichtetur” with the SS.) You have been
>apprised of the fact that evidence of cyanide was found in the Kremas by
>both the later Polish chemists, and (though you’ve probably forgotten it)
>was also mentioned as having been found on plates from the ventilation
>system shortly after the war. You have been apprised of witnesses – both
>prisoners and SS men – who testified to gassing. And that is just what
>has been posted here.

Of the above only the traces of cyanide would be considered
evidence as has been noted. Killing rats in a morgue is
certainly a desirable thing. And on the other hand there are
contrary evidences such as a steel door on one way out and wooden
partitions (whatever those might be in detail) at another exit.
What you have is far from conclusive.

> Therefore you are obstinately devoted to your own belief or opinion
>that there is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>Holocaust. You may think there is not enough evidence to convince you,
>but that is not the same thing as no evidence. (If you wish to assert
>that the evidence is forged, the burden of proof would be on you.)

There is not enough evidence to pass the “beyond a reasonable
doubt” criteria for capital cases.

> I expect your problem is that you thought that “bigot” = “racist.”
>But that’s simply due to the paupacy of your skill in English. You really
>ought to learn the language sometime.

Rather it is clear that obstinate devotion to an opinion of
gassing would also satisfy that definition. Belief in the
absense of knowledge and believe contrary to physical law.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:35:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34453 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas bag
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 01:58:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 8:56:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>: >> We know from eyewitness testimony

>: > “We?” Do you have a friend in your pocket? I don’t know some of the
>: >things claimed below, especially as no evidence is cited.

>: The “we” is the gang of six, the amen corner and all of Nizkor.

>As compared to the gang of Nazis, the Nazi amen corner, and Ernst Zundl’s
>followers?

Whoever you may be referring to is not participating here.

Careful about those group generalizations there, Mr. Giwer —
>you throw a hissy fit any time someone makes one about you.

I merely point out they are knowingly lying.

>: >> 1) Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>: >>minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.

>: > 1a) This is one witness’s estimate and much lower than most other
>: >witnesses’ figures. And it is an _estimate_, which is something to regard
>: >as less exact and accurate than observations of events, like seeing
>: >someone put on a gas mask and pour something down a hole, or seeing a
>: >large number of people enter an empty room alive and seeing that same room
>: >with a large number of dead bodies in it a short time later.

>: You mean that seeing a gas mask put on is a more reliable marker
>: than hearing an engine from a tank turn on? In what manner?

>What’s amazing is that every time you start a sentence with a qualifier,
>it always turns out that the exact opposite is true. When you say “we
>can all agree” it’s adead giveaway that noone agrees with you; here you
>say “You mean” when of course it’s clear that’s NOT what he meant. You
>always see “logical conclusions” that the rest of the world doesn’t think
>logical.

You still did not answer the question.

>: But if you say the estimate was too short by a significant
>: multiple then we have the problem of just how quickly how many
>: people could have been executed from other stories.

>”Executed from other stories.” I belive that the allegation is that they
>were exectuted from bullets and gas, not stories, although I hear TOm
>moran is trying to change that.

Now of course even you could see the plain meaning of what I said
and you will not address the problem with mutually conflicting
truths.

>: Would you rather keep the 15-20 minutes or would you rather keep
>: the murder rate?

>: You have a very simple choice to make but you can not have both
>: of them at the same time.

>So you say……

Very clever but again, a refusal to address both stories at the
same time, insisting that they must be true separately.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:35:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:03:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 9:01:39 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
>Curtis) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>> >>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post.
>>
>> > I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>> >Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>> >it a gas chamber?
>>
>> If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>> by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>I’ve seen both photos, and the I posted looks nearly the same, accepting
>that it was not in color of course. The one that _was_ in color clealrly
>show blue stains on the wall that the door is in. And yes, the caption to
>it commented on the stains being a by-product of HCN gas. (i.e. “Prussian
>Blue?”)

One will hope you have the courtesy to post the color picture and
then explain the iron wall. You will remember there was a long
holohugger post about the third valence state of iron to get this
color.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:35:02 PDT 1996
Article: 34455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:05:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]news.prodigy.com> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 9:03:05 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>
>>> >Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>> >Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post.
>>>
>>> I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>> Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>> it a gas chamber?

>>Perhaps if you weren’t such a prick, yes. As it stands, you are more than
>>welcome to check the book yourself. You asked for a photo and I posted it.
>>Now, that you have been given the photo you bleated for, you find fault
>>with it? How typical.
>Mark,

>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>There must be more than one picture. I have a book that has the same
>shot, but the door is closed.

And you also will remember the long holohugger post saying that
this color could only occur as the third valence state of iron
meaning the wall was made of iron. That is quite an interesting
construction technique.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 08:35:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:15:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 9:17:34 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> According to ABC news Schlinder’s wife denounced him as a profit
>>hungry no good and the movie as completely false to what she knew
>>of her husband. Of course, your mileage is guaranteed to vary.

>No, actually, from what I’ve read she was about right. The amazing
>thing is that such a thoroughly unadmirable, lazy, good-for-nothing
>philandering profiteer managed to draw a moral line at participation
>in genocide. If as morally degenerate a specimen as Oskar Schindler
>was able to do this, why couldn’t others?

>This, of course, is part of what Goldhagen’s book tries to explain.

It appears you disagree with his wife. But then I did warn you
on your mileage.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 11:20:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:36:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 12:36:45 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>>>Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> As I said, you really don’t understand scholarship.

>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:

>>> But I do.

>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!

>> Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought. History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.

>> Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.

>LOL! That why historians work at Colonial Williamsburg! That’s why I
>visited Fall River for a paper on Lizzie Borden. That’s why I visited
>the area of the Pequot War and visited the various museums in the New
>England area in my study of that war. That’s why I collect original
>source documents or facsimilie reprints of those documents for use in
>the course of my work. You sir, Are the one who doesn’t look anywhere
>beyond his own nose.

You visited and collected documents. Rather what I said. Now
where was the analytic thought? At least we have someone
claiming to be a practicing historian as opposed to the rest.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 11:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34473 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B – Unlikely Agent
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 05:57:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:00:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
>>unnecessary as it “changed” a policy of extermination in the East
>>to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
>>Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a “professional
>>conference” at a tourist attraction. It is certainly not unknown
>>but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.

>I realize that posting to you is like posting to a huge rock for it
>doesn’t move and it doesn’t take in anything and it has no feelings.
>But the purpose, as you have been told before, was to bring together
>disparate elements of the Nazi regime to coordinate the murder in a
>more systematic way.

As you know from reading it so many times, the original policy
PRIOR to the conference was emigration to the east. You also
know there is no evidence in the document of your claim to
coordination as there is no reference to disparate policies prior
to the conference.

Whatever I might have been told was a obvious confabulation that
is contrary to the contents of the document as are your claims of
coordination which are not contained in the document.

Now if you willing to post further documentation of the purpose
of the conference then I am willing to read it. Until you do, it
is only your fantasy that invents what you are claiming.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 12:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:22:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:24:48 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>> In other words, McVay is being used. No problem for McVay. He
>>>>can be bought. A few bucks in his pocket alleviates any ethical
>>>>reservations.

>>>I am afraid that this is an argument for people who have run out of
>>>arguments. Greg Raven draws a paycheck from the IHR, and Ernst Zuendel
>>>makes a sustantial income from selling Holocaust denial materials
>>>abroad. Are they also ethically compromised by the simple fact that
>>>they are paid to do what they do?

>> And of course the gang of six does it all out of the goodness of their
>>heart.

>A concept that is obviously unknown to the Giwer-troll.

You fail to notice that we are talking 25 megs per person worth
of semi-organized material. But we still have four silent
members of the Gang of Six who are responsible for that much
material. Of course if they have no life outside of Nizkor it is
understandable. As I have said, I know what it takes to put
together a large website as mine is a bit over 4 megs.

Another point of course is the “tax reciepts” issued for
contributions. The cost of one’s own server on an established
provider is about $300 a month. It is either a very poor fund
raising activity or a lot of extra money to be spread around.
For any reasonable size congregation it is 25 cents a week per
family.

So they put a gig drive on their own server. That is another
$250 (US of course) actually less but no need to quibble. It is
a one time cost.

But if in the process this Nizkor dropped the $50,000 or so for a
private connection then we ask after their sale of connections to
others are an indication of their for profit status.

The financing questions are too obvious to be ignored in this
matter.

And that does not begin to address the issue that entire Nizkor
site is a religious activity.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 12:25:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 03:05:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 10:02:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># The doctor can speak for himself and you can not read his
># mind so please stop this speaking for your fellow holohuggers.
># The evidence in favor of the “Dr.” appelation is not in comport
># with what would be expected of a person with such credentials.
>
>What’s the matter, Giwer old boy? You want a postscript file
>of my doctoral thesis? Shoot, maybe I shouldn’t take the risk?
>After all, the 163-IQ man might find an error in it (smirk).

You have my email address if you want to take a shot at it. But
first convert it to plain ascii as postscript is of no value to
me.

>Go project your inferiority complex on someone else.

To who?

># The witnesses also testified to electrocution, suffocation and
># steaming.
>
>Name one SS-man from Treblinka, Belzec, or Sobibor, who
>testified to murder by such methods.

I was thinking of victim statements.

>To the best of my knowledge, no such person exists. All testified
>that the victims were murdered by poison gas.

>The statement that “claims of steaming, electrocution etc are
>supported by eyewitness testimony just as claims of gassing
>are”, is a blatant lie. But what can one expect from you? After
>you lied so much on this newsgroup, it’s no surprise.

You must have missed the post here of victim statements. I am
certain Nizkor hasn’t lost it.

>Re the steaming etc stories:

>These were misinterpretations of members of the Polish underground
>who were spying on the camps from a distance. They realized that
>numerous people were being murdered there, but couldn’t see what
>was happening inside the gas chambers; they did see the corpses
>taken out and buried.

>For instance, seeing the door of the gas chamber open and a cloud
>of the engin’s exhaust coming out, someone spying on the camp from
>a distance could easily mistake the killing procedure to
>”steaming”. The same mistake could be made by someone who was
>in the camp (and escaped), but who never saw the gas chambers from
>close range and never spoke to the sonderkommando.

How does one confuse white condensed steam (clouds at best) with
with blue-black exhaust? Whereas the concentration of steam
could be increased to become visible to some extent, the
concentration of exhaust could not be increased without a
pressurized building and then doubling he concentration would
double the pressure requiring a very strong metal structure and
of course shutting off the engine from the backpressure.

Thus in fact the concentration of exhaust could never have become
any greater than that which comes out of an engine itself.

And certainly they would at some point have noticed quantities of
fuel being pumped into the tanks and noticed the coincident sound
of the engines.

Clearly your explanation is not reasonable yet you will not take
kindly to even a question of this hypothetical explanation.

>You’ll always have such erroneous reports, more so in a situation
>like this, in which someone had to make a conjecture about a
>technical fact, which concerned a technical operation he knew
>nothing about.

Lets get on to the electrocution. Did they see flashing lights
inside at night?

>Descriptions of every historical event always contain a certain
>amount of inaccuracies and rumors. It’s like the insane claims
>of “puddles of human flesh” and “people glowing orange and
>vanishing” during the firebombing of Dresden. Holocaust deniers
>would obviously use this to claim Dresden was never bombed, but
>they don’t, because they’re interested only in denying Nazi
>atrocities.

And you fail to see where similar claims about gassing are as
insane also simply because you are familiar with them. You even
go so far as to claim physical law is a lie when it detracts from
your beliefs.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 12:25:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.fyionline.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Psychic Flash Alert!
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:51:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 4:50:29 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Michael P. Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> You mean you know the correct name of a company you have
>>>previously stated you know nothing about? Not surprising for a
>>>person who can accurately predict the future.
>>>
>>> You are very stupid. You fall for even the most trivial tricks.
>>
>> My hat’s off to Mr. Giwer. He successfully tricked Mr. McFee into
>>using the very same company name that Mr. Giwer had himself used in the
>>post to which Mr. McFee responded. I am truly at a loss for words to
>>describe how impressive I find this display of cunning.
>>
>> I have no idea why Mr. Giwer thinks this is a significant
>>accomplishment, or what it proves beyond the fact that Mr. McFee can
>>accurately read, understand, and repeat text that Mr. Giwer has written
>>(which is certainly more than Mr. Giwer is capable of). But it obviously
>>has some profound meaning to Mr. Giwer. Perhaps someday he might care to
>>share it with those who are not 163 IQ types.

> I have just received a psychic flash.

> I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
>has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
>”Internet Indirect” in response to Mr. Giwer’s posted statement about
>”Internet Indirect.”

> You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
>but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn’t come
>true.

Rather I would suggest that when I posted “indirect” the
respondant post “direct” as my evidence but then you folks are so
used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
to those who care to find the truth.

But in doing so you folks are setting lines of battle. May the
best man beat the lot of you liars.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 13:31:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen and Austria (was Re: Evil Little Huber Babies)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:40:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:40:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: du> <[email protected]>
>: >: <[email protected]> >: >: <[email protected]>
>: >: <[email protected]> >: >: <[email protected]> Distribution:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: >: Lets see. There were enthusiastic crowds when Hitler drove through
>: >: the streets after annexation. Therefore Austrians enthusiastically
>: >: embraced annexation.

>: >: There was an enthusiastic crowd in Tampa to greet Clinton on his last
>: >: visit. Therefore Tampa enthusiastically embraced Clinton.

>: >: It would be an awfully incompetent political party that could not turn
>: >: out an enthusiastic crowd.

>: >: However, I do find it extremely common that people will assume that
>: >: such crowds are spontanious. When Pres. Eisenhower wanted one he
>: >: would let civilians servants go home early if they showed up as a
>: >: cheering crowd first.

>: >: Of course, that is revisionism. Austrian crowds were different from
>: >: all other political crowds in the world. I understand the dogma.

>: >Mr. Giwer is employing Denier Technique #7,218: Don’t actually say
>: >anything which refutes the point (here, that Austria embraced Hitler
>: >enthusiastically). Instead, just point out why the evidence presented
>: >doesn’t meet your personal standards. Provide no evidence for this,
>: >either, other than your opinion of what’s logical.

>: Some day you should publish a complete list of the techniques.
>: It will be interesting to see how agreement with the premise of
>: those crowds being different can constitute denying anything.
>: But let me remark that I find you “standard of proof” rather in
>: line with the common assumption that all crowds are spontaneous.

>Not even necessary — I never assumed all crowds were spontaneous, and if
>you can find anywhere I said that, I’ll send you 10 bucks.

The lack of an explicite statement hardly negates the presumption
in your posts.

>Are crowds evidence of enthusiasm? I would say yes.

Right! And the usual trick for that was to have the cafes along
the route pouring freely. It was not invented in Austria.

Do they prove
>EVERYONE is enthusiastic? of course not. But your counter-example is
>interesting — if crowds of cheering people lined the streets for
>Clinton’s visit to Tampa, I would say “Tampa greeted Clinton
>enthusiastically.”

Then you would be knowingly lying as you would more properly be
saying that in the small part of the streets you saw on camera
that you saw a staged political rally as they all are. Even
honest journalists would only photograph the action.

>More to the point, nothing you have said disproves Austria greeting
>Hitler enthusiastically. You’ve given some half-assed, unsupported
>assertions about Eisenhower, and somehow in your mind that’s enough.

Now I am supposed to prove a negative? Very creationist of you.

>: >: >> >In fact, he uses the parallel examples of
>”ordinary
>: >: >> >citizens'” complicity in other atrocities–in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia,
>: >: >> >Armenia, etc.–as part of his argument that “ordinary Germans” were
>: >: >> >similarly complicit in the Holocaust.
>: >: >>
>: >: >> I can see it all now, millions of armed Germans hunting them down and
>: >: >> killing them. When you read it did you not notice the absurdity of
>: >: >> this comparison?

>: >: >Hundreds of thousands, actually–although in Germany, millions stood
>: >: >silently by and let it happen.

>: >: So you are in the “everyone but the Jews and the homosexuals and the
>: >: slavs and the gypsies etc. knew what was happening” camp. Very good.
>: >: I will try to remember that.

>: >Ooooh, he’s a “Neo-Nizkorite” or whatever it was he called someone. He’s
>: >keeping a “mental file” — the difference between him and Nizkor is that
>: >Nizkor keeps the actual statements, so as to be accurate.

>: But to be used selectively and out of context of an exchange with
>: the intent to deceive.

>Nope. You’ve got no proof of that, because it didn’t happen. Someday
>you’ll realize that demanding proof of the holocaust while providing no
>evidence of anything you say makes you look like an *sshole.

Some day you will learn that a proof of negative is very
creationist.

>: >: Here’s the passage from Goldhagen
>: >: >I was thinking of:

>: >: >”No reason exists to believe that modern, western, even Christian man is
>: >: >incapable of holding notions which devalue human life, which call for its
>: >: >extinction, notions held by [other] peoples. . . throughout history. . . .
>: >: >Who doubts that the Argentine or Chilean murderes of
>: >: >people who opposed the recent authoritarian regimes thought that their
>: >: >victims deserved to die? Who doubts that the Tutsis who slaughtered
>: >: >Hutus in Burundi or the Hutus who slaughtered Tutsis in Rwanda, that one
>: >: >Lebanese militia which slaughtered the civilian supporters of another,
>: >: >that the Serbs who have killed Croats or Bosnian Muslims, did so out of
>: >: >conviction in the justice of their actions? Why do we not believe the
>: >: >same for the German perpetrators?” (pp. 14-15).

>: >: >Goldhagen invokes these other examples to point out that those mass
>: >: >murders were ideologically motivated, and to foreground his examination
>: >: >of the ideology that led Germans to support the Nazi government’s actions
>: >: >against Jews. He is particularly critical of the idea that German
>: >: >soldiers and other participants in the killings of Jewish civilians
>: >: >needed to be persuaded or compelled to participate.

>: >: So by mixing metaphors of actions of governments and of people he is
>: >: able to indicted 50,000,000 people. It is not a very subtle
>: >: propaganda technique. I would have expected you to notice it.

>: >Actually, I would have expected that you read the book before you
>: >pronounce your decision of Goldhagen’s methods. Do you alweays decide
>: >before seeing any actual facts?

>: If facts about the book are not being posted here, what is the
>: point to the discussion?

>Given that minute fragments of a long book have been posted here, I ask
>again: Do you always decide before seeing any actual facts?

I have only commented upon what has been posted here, not upon
the book as a whole. As you know that is true, what is the point
of your question?

>: >: 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

>: >: What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>: >What kind of idiot summarizes a book’s methodolgy without even reading it?

>: You need to learn what summarizing methodology means before you
>: start talking about someone doing it. If you knew what that
>: meant you would know I have not. If you had been following the
>: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: book does not contain the methodology.

>The book does not contain “the” methodology? Interesting accusation.

Go back and read.

If you had been following the
>: message traffic you would know another person has posted that the
>: book does not contain the methodology.

Notice “ANOTHER PERSON” in the statement? Another person made
the accusation, not me.

>Sometime you will have to explain what “the” methodology is.
>But given that you have not read the book, you have no basis upon which
>to summarize its methodology. which makes you a troll just starved for
>attention.

When you learn to read what you responding to, get back to me.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 13:31:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 06:44:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 1:45:12 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
>>>>>>capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
>>>>>>into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
>>>>>>inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
>>>>>>Jews.
>>>>
>>>>>Nope. Didn’t happen. In fact, there was opposition to some of what was
>>>>>going on. Especially so to German citizens. This is why the Nazis were
>>>>>forced to move their killing sites either far underground or out of
>>>>>country. I suggest that the uninformed, such as you, Mr. Moran, ought
>>>>>to read a book called *Nazi Doctors* by Lipton for information about
>>>>>some of this opposition.
>>>>
>>>> As the truth has changed from gas chambers all over Germany to
>>>>only outside of Germany just what German citizens would have been
>>>>of concern? Are you talking about tourists? What does this
>>>>”underground” mean much less “far underground”?
>>
>>> GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>>> when in fact he is just making up lies. It has never been asserted
>>> that there were “gas chambers all over Germany.” Giwer may respond to
>>> this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>>> a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true. he
>>> won’t respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.
>>
>> Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
>>Germany?

> Here is the exchange (from <[email protected]>).
> Giwer said to another poster:

> Matty> You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while
> Matty> just the other day someone said there was never any such claim.

> I responded:

> Danny> That would have been me. It looks like I was in error.
> Danny> I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
> Danny> while the camps within Germany proper were work camps. I did not
> Danny> realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps. I
> Danny> stand corrected. Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.

I have never used dimunitives in my quoting system. What are you
talking about?
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 34500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:40:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 2:43:27 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 1 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>>
>> The “academic” claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>> dropping a quarter for verification. My experience in these
>> public exchanges started in 1980. My experience is also that the
>> grander the claim the less likely to be true.
>>
>> Credentials are never to be taken as true as given. Were I to
>> dredge up old memories I could give a long list. But in this
>> case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates. Department
>> members are likely the same. (A department member sig even
>> vanished when I mentioned that point.) Note the near complete
>> lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>> the internet.

>Brilliant deductive powers, Mr. Giwer! If you want to verify that I am a
>PhD candidate at the University of Arizona, I invite you to e-mail the
>Rhetoric and Composition Program secretary, Jonathan Kandell, at
>[email protected] (there have been some recent systems upgrades;
>his address *may* now be [email protected]).

I will accept you are untrained in analytic thought as that has
been obvious from the first of your posts I have read. What is
it you expect to gain from this save that you are not so educated
and that your field does not require such an ability?

>And for what it’s worth, Keith Morrison has always been upfront about his
>being an undergraduate–though now that he’s finished his B.S. and left
>the group, he obviously doesn’t fall into that category.

A bunch of college kids as I have said. Children turned loose on
a network designed for professionals.

>> Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>> expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>> Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>> those claiming the credentials. One has to accept that
>> accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>> reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>> fact available through this medium.

>Oh, right–like the way we do unacademic stuff like citing titles,
>authors, page numbers, that sort of unproffessional crap. You perhaps
>prefer Tom Moran’s method of saying “I read it in an article in the _L.A.
>Times_ about three years ago”?

That is called “scholarly.” It requires no analytic thought.
Things must stand on their own regardless of who says them as the
appeal to authority fallacy applies.

Some day when you find yourself selling insurance you will regret
not going into a serious field.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 34505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:55:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 2:51:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>: >someone should explain to Matt “163 IQ, not a point less” Giwer that:
>>
>>>: >1) The description of Hitler posted refers to the very end of
>>>: > the war, when he was indeed in a state of collapse. He was
>>>: > not always like this.
>>
>>>: >2) Hitler didn’t bother himself with the techniques used for
>>>: > mass murder in the death camps, no more than the president
>>>: > of the US involved himself in the technical side of building
>>>: > the A-bomb.
>>
>>>: Quite the revisionist, aren’t you? What did you do, read the
>>>: galleys of Irving’s book?
>>
>>>GIWER ON THE RUN ALERT: The GIwer, having been exposed as having made a
>>>completely asinine assertion about Hitler, can find no answer other than
>>>to call his opponent a “revisionist.” Anyone who thinks this changes the
>>>fact that Old Man Giwer got it wrong, raise your hand.
>>
>>>: >163 IQ points, indeed. Pity he’s only using 10 of them…
>>
>>>: How would a genius like you know?
>>
>>>How? Because only a moron would assert that Hitler’s enfeebled state at
>>>the end of the war means that Hitlers was unable to act earlier in the war.
>>>That’s like saying that because you’re a senile old fool now, you must
>>>have been senile 30 years ago. Q.E.D.
>>
>> When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>>on you parents, get back to me. In the mean time, get back to
>>your books to help your GPA. You are going to need it in the
>>real world.

> GIWER LAST STRAW ALERT: Giwer has given up all pretense of actually
> discussing issues and is now simply accusing his discussants of being
> – shudder the thought – undergraduates. Mr. Litt, for example, has
> explained that he has finished Law School and is working on his L.L.M.
> Mr. Giwer offers no evidence ot the contrary (and for that matter no
> evidence regarding the point at hand up above) but continues on making
> bald ad hominem assertions.

Gee whiz, I have been found out. After my ripe old age of 50 has
been made the subject of much BS I point out the college kids who
have still to learn about the real world and a Mr. Litt who has
still not be out of school for one self supporting day is brought
up as a counter example.

I am so impressed by these children I think I will shit in my
pants in honor of them.

Is this going to go on forever? Children in college with their
repetative highschool responses? Just try these ridicule
techniques in your first real job and see how far you are from
being invited to seek your future in the fast food industry.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:11:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]om> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 2:14:25 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>>>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post.

>>>> I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>>>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>>>it a gas chamber?

>>>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>>>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>> It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color. It
>>is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is
>>unclear what blue would have formed from.

>Really? Ooops. I recall it now. I have a color picture of that same
>room and the walls are blue. The caption on the pictures says what I
>said above. I believe the title of the book is _The World Must Know_.

Get your story straight at least. The picture shows nothing
indicative of any gassing. There was a very long holohugger post
here demonstrating quite clearly that blue could only form as the
third valence state of iron.

Now post your color picture and the evidence that the walls were
iron and at least you have the first leg to stand on for your
claim.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 34515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:25:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:28:24 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:

>> # As you would know if you had any knowledge of the assets in the
>> # Middle East, Syria has never had any heavy bombers nor to any
>> # countries in the middle east.
>>
>> What about the Soviet Tupolev T-16 bomber?
>>
>> Egypt and Iraq had them.
>>
>> Rest assured, folks: no matter what he’s talking about, Giwer
>> will make a fool of himself.
>>
>> Note the pigheaded arrogance: “if you had any knowledge…”.

>Indeed. As if the current crop of Sryian combat aircraft can’t carry
>bombs! Or that Syrian battlefield missles couldn’t reach Israel! (Syria
>ordered 150 Scud-C missles from Norh Korea in 1991, of which about 50 were
>delivered that year.)

College kids do need to learn they are taught nothing new in
college and that there are many other places to learn outside of
college.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:12 PDT 1996
Article: 34520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:36:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:33:13 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21602 alt.revisionism:34520

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>>
>>>Secondly, why do you infer Mr. McVay’s future or present tax-exempt status
>>>from the fact that he doesn’t work for anybody? Unless you know something
>>>I don’t (and I seriously doubt that), this is neither a necessary nor
>>>sufficient condition for tax-exempt status. But I wouldn’t really know,
>>>because I am only familiar with U.S. tax code … which brings me to my
>>>next point.
>>
>> A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status. It is
>>unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>>involved with secular history. But if it is religious history
>>that makes Nizkor a religious site.

> I know nothing about Canadian tax laws. If Nizkor were in the US, it
> would be possible for it to accept tax exempt donations (which is what
> the original assertion was until the trollers got hold of it) without
> having any religious association. I can, for example, offer a donation
> to Goodwill Industries which has, to my knowledge, no religious
> affiliation.

> Mr. McVay has stated he does not receive renumeration from Nizkor.
> Given that, what possible tax implications could there be for Nizkor
> from any other source of income Mr. McVay might have?

It is unclear that in US law anyone can claim tax exempt status
for a website devoted to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. If you
know an attorney who can establish this please let me know.

Whatever the details of the holocaust might have been it was
clearly a secular event despite religions sponsorship of it.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Fri May 3 19:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 34529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 08:52:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 3:51:02 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27530 alt.revisionism:34529 soc.culture.jewish:47337

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >tom moran ([email protected]) whines:

>: > Can a true statement be “anti-Semitic”?

>: >Yes, it can.

>: Enough said.

>For those who might think Giwer has responded, I pose the following
>question to Mr. Giwer:

>If Mr. Moran says “I think Jews are the scum of the earth” — is that
>both true and anti-Semitic?

>Well, let’s see:

>(1)It’s true — Li’l TOmmy does think Jews are the scum of the earth.
>That doesn’t make him accurate, but the statement is true.

>(2)Is it anti-Semitic? Well, duh.

Your IF is a really shitty try.

It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
anti-semitic as including the truth.

Yes, it is truly an enemy situation where the speaker of the
truth must be attacked.

It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

It has been a matter of primitive tribalists engaging in their
warfare in an unfortunate example of such tribalism surviving
into the 20th century.

One would hope civilization would catch up to these tribalists
and they would come into the modern world and learn to forgive
their real and imagined enemies. Instead they are enjoined to
learn to hate. And of course we have Nizkor as a religious site.
—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.onramp.net!news.mind.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 07:14:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 2:17:20 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> You continue to fail to post the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>>>constants filled in, Mr. MS Chemist. Why is that?
>>>>
>>>>>I am assuming Mr. Giwer is referring to me although I am not an “MS
>>>>>Chemist.” What does he think “the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>>constants filled in” means? Does Mr. Giwer care to see the Schrodinger
>>>>>Equation? Perhaps, he is referring to his ignorance regarding the vapor
>>>>>pressure of HCN? Perhaps he is referring to the solution to Fick’s
>>>>>second law of diffusion?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you could simply post the equations that support your
>>>>”high vapor pressure” explains everything contention?
>>
>>> As Mr. Giwer ought to know, the properties of compounds are actually
>>>determined experimentally.
>>
>>> Therefore I think we can settle this matter quite easily.
>>
>>> Obviously Mr. Giwer believes that since the boiling point of HCN is 26
>>>degrees, it will evaporate very, very slowly at low temperatures.
>>>Therefore I am sure he will have no qualms about volunteering to spend
>>>five minutes without a gas mask in a five-degree room with a concentration
>>>of Zyklon equivalent to that used in the Birkenau gas chambers.
>>
>> Obviously you are completely ignorant of P Chem and have no
>>business pretending to contribute to this discussion.

> My knowledge of P Chem or lack thereof proves nothing about your
>knowledge of P Chem. You are the one making claims to know something
>about the subject, not I. Therefore you are the one bearing the burden of
>proof. But you know that.

Then post the equations with the constants filled in as you must
have known them to make the hand waving claim about vapor
pressure.

> Would you be in danger under the conditions described or not? The
>possible answers are “Yes,” “No,” or “I don’t know.” It is the state of
>your knowledge that is at issue, not mine.

Post the equations.

>> You have no concept of any science whatsoever or if you do you
>>are misrepresenting what little you do know. Your credentials
>>are invited.

> Credentials? Now, why would a man who said, “You folks still playing
>around college seem to think credentials mean something. Some day you
>will join the real world and learn better,” ask for credentials?

Post the equations.

>Source:
> Subject: Re: Translation needed was: (Re: Remembering the holocaust)
> Date: 1996/03/16
> MessageID: <[email protected]>
> Linkname: DejaNews Document 830996164.12380:dnserver.db96q1:9597438
> URL:
> http://dejanews.dejanews.com/cgi-bin/dngetdoc.html?RECNUM=95974
> 38+SERVER=dnserver.db96q1+CONTEXT=830996164.12380

> (In case you’re wondering, it was a matter of but a few minutes to
>find the above text. It appears I have a much better memory for what you
>said than you do yourself.)

Post the equations.

> Obviously you are trying to evade the issue. You pretend credentials
>mean nothing when you wish to evade debating someone who has them, but you
>suddenly decide they mean something when your statements are challenged by
>someone who you think does not have them. But that is only what one would
>expect from a dishonest troll.

> My ignorance is not at issue here. Yours is. Hurling insults at me
>proves nothing about what you do or don’t know. It is merely a juvenile
>attempt to evade accountability for your prior statements.

> But you know that.

Post the equations.

> Now, do you seriously doubt the product instructions, and believe that
>Zyklon could not be used effectively at five degrees as claimed, or were
>you just trolling by _appearing_ to doubt it with language which gives you
>”plausible deniability?”

> Psychic prediction: Mr. Giwer will never give a straight answer to the
>above question.

Post the equations.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:19:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 5:20:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 02 May 1996 14:33:33 -0700, [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!Indeed. If this is then the case- that this “Al Gentile” was never
>!declared a Righteous Gentile-and thatthis has already been shown to Mr.
>!Grynspan, I would then ask Mr. Grynspan WHY heis abetting oneof Giwer’s
>!lies?
>!(I’m sure we all can guess as to Giwer’s motives.)

>Same mentality. They must use any means, no matter how ethically
>corrupt, to destroy anyone who takes them to task for their crap. Notice
>too, Grynspan doesnt even have an issue other than defending Giwer and
>Gentile. CONTROL FREAKS.

>I’ve watched both their acts for most of a decade, its the same game.
>They troll for emotionally disturbed right-wing loonies to win over and
>then lead the poor idiots into their sick games of unethical net
>behavior (netscabing). The poor morons who shine up to them end up
>getting little other than their reputations ruined, their credibility
>destroyed, tossed off systems, and made complete fools of. Then the
>GIWER/GRYNSPAN unit disappear for a while and come back and try it
>again.

>The problem is this newsgroup doesnt have the RIGHT KIND of right-wing
>morons for them to win over. Baron, Moran, Kleim, etc., consider
>themselves leaders not followers, not easily manipulated.

>They are getting frustrated, and the more frustrated they get, the lower
>they go into the lying, forging and intimidation. The only surprise I
>have had so far is Grynspan hasn’t threatend to sue anyone yet, which is
>usually how he makes an entrance…

Sounds like you have managed to find the radio station Alec
broadcasts on. Or was it just a different tooth?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:28:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 5:27:26 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>>> when in fact he is just making up lies. It has never been asserted
>>> that there were “gas chambers all over Germany.” Giwer may respond to
>>> this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>>> a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true. he
>>> won’t respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.

>> Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
>>Germany?

>It is very difficult to tell you the evidence and truth if you keep
>distorting what you are told. It isn’t an adult thing to do and it is
>an obvious tactic to others.

When the truth changes from not in Germany, to at Dachau, to in
camps all over Germany in only a few days it is very difficult to
determine which truth we are dealing with.

It is particularly difficult when I originally made the statement
that the story had changed from all over Germany to none in
Germany over the years and the first response (followed by a
pile-on by the amen corner) that there was never a claim of gas
chambers in Germany, that the story had always been that there
were none in Germany.

What is particularly interesting now is that the same amen corner
“knew all along” that there were gas chambers in camps in
Germany.

The amen corner should be more skeptical of what they read here
before they claim they knew it all along. Otherwise they wind up
knowing way too many conflicting things all along.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 20:58:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 4:01:39 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, Laura Finsten <[email protected]> writes…

>[deleted Giwer and part of my response]

>>>And if you think archaeologists don’t debate, at times very
>>>heatedly, the significance of what they “look at” and its
>>>broader interpretative meaning, you’re merely blowing more
>>>hot air. I’d be happy to provide you with some references
>>>about “scholarly debates” in archaeology if you are interested.

>> Or he could just go read some Stephen Jay Gould.

>Ooooooooooooooo! What an idea!! Read a book or two!!! Na!!!
>*Real scientists* don’t need no stinkin’ books!!!

A fascinating belief that Gould publishes anything but a
popularization in his books. Or would you care to name the
textbooks of his you have read?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:17:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 5:18:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>> Except that your bosom buddy, David Dahlman knows all about him.

>DEMENTED ALERT: Giwer doesn’t seem to recognize that the existance of
>a person with a name hardly qualifies the assertions attributed to
>said person. The person may exist as a being, but is still unknown to
>the SW center or to anyone else for that matter.

Who made them an authority?

But I thought the word of all “eyewitnesses” were to be accepted
without question in this group. When did the rule change?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:50:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 5:52:51 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka death
>>>camp site — and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives
>>>in Washington, DC — cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that
>>>it was a mass extermination center.
>>
>>Treblinka was erected in late May- earlier June 42; first “transport”
>>on July 23; and dismantled at the end of November 43. A former
>>Ukrainian guard named Strebel with his family became a farmer on this
>>area, planted pine woods, saw lupin,.. So in 44, a photograph would
>>hardly show anything.

> Only in the Holocaust story. One year there is nothing, the
>next year it was a roaring extermination camp where up to 2,000,000
>people were killed and the next year it’s a tree farm, and nothing is
>left to take a picture of but trees. No rail line, no roads, no
>buildings, no fire pit(s), no gas chambers, no barracks, only trees.
>Yikes. Only the Holocaust story tellers would press something this
>rediculous – as true.

Sounds like another Wolsek. Even cleaned up the pits to get rid
of the calcium. Very efficient those Germans.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34630 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 07:25:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 2:28:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>
> I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that
>tilts ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the
>story, right away. Once this is shown, they become very attentative.
> The aspect is – the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
>efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.
> Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifistation of
>the child logic on alt.revisionism, all the charges of “hate” and
>”racism” can not stamp out the basic prevailant human nature to be
>suspicious of someone who professes something and then not only
>refuses to discuss it, but actually tries to stop any further
>discussion.
> All it does is push the suspicious mind in the direction of
>the views of those who are attacked.

Unlike money, good information drives out bad.

The dissemination of all information needs be unatttacked in any
venue other than competing information.

Going beyond the medium of presentation is vendetta (Kan’li to
our SF WorldCon freak here.)

Harrassing providers, threatening public exposure, harrassing
employers, goes beyond the medium of exchange.

It is an attempt to use other methods to drive out information,
good or bad, that are not related to the information itself that
is the provence of the holohuggers on the grounds that “they have
done it to” the tribal “us” that makes them an immoral activity.

It is the initiation of violence in the form of harrassment and
intimation that separates the holohuggers and the amen corner
>from the civilized population of the world. They are of the
“scruples are best served with garlic butter” camp. They would
eat them rather than have them.

It is these animals who are eating their own case alive.

Serious scrutiny can not be stopped forever. It is a matter of
time before the house of cards comes tumbling down to their own
detriment. But they do not care. They are pushing an advantage
beyond the strength of that advantage. They are very foolish in
this regard.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:44:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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[email protected] (mgiwer) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>says…
>>
>>[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>>>
>>>> The “academic” claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>>>dropping a quarter for verification. My experience in these
>>>>public exchanges started in 1980. My experience is also that the
>>>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.
>>
>>> Exactly. And as your claims about the “science” of the Holocaust
>are
>>> certainly grand in that they conflict what every Historian in the
>world
>>> accepts to be true, your claims are “less likely to be true.” And
>at
>>> the very least require extraordinary effort on your part to prove
>them
>>> true. That is, the burden of proof is most certainly on you.
>>
>> What would a historian know about science? Certainly no more
>>than you and yet you believe you are capable of judging for
>>yourself.
>>
>>>> Credentials are never to be taken as true as given. Were I to
>>>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list. But in this
>>>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates. Department
>>>>members are likely the same. (A department member sig even
>>>>vanished when I mentioned that point.) Note the near complete
>>>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>>>the internet.
>>
>>> What you “were to dredge up” carries no weight. Do you have any
>>> specific charges to level here? I thought not.
>>
>> A question is not a charge.
>>
>>But just to save you
>>> the quarter, here is what you will find about me if you check the
>>> University of Arizona (my alma mater) on-line card catalog under
>my
>>> name:
>>
>>> CALL # Micro fiche E9791 1995 86
>>> AUTHOR Mittleman, Daniel David, 1958-
>>> TITLE Architectural programming toolbox : using group support
>>> systems technology to increase the effectiveness of
>user
>>> participation in architectural programming (PHD
>Dissertation)
>>> PUBLISHER Tucson, Arizona : University of Arizona, 1995.
>>
>>> I suspect that Dr. Keren’s, and Judge Edeiken’s credentials are
>also
>>> available on-line.
>>
>>> All in all, you are making vague charges with no evidence to back
>them
>>> up. So, basically, what we have here is more Giwer hot air. And
>>> nothing more.
>>
>>> I should add here that I have spent four years posting in
>>> alt.revisionism without ever discussing my background or
>credentials.
>>> In general, I am not too impressed by people’s credentials. What
>I
>>> find much more important is the manner in which people present and
>>> defend their arguments. I am a bit uncomfortable about posting
>this
>>> information about me, but I feel that Giwer’s assertions merit a
>>> response.
>>
>> And I would not ordinarily do so either. Yet there were posts
>>made by others. The first group were claiming I did not know
>>anything about science and the second group pointing to others as
>>authorities because of credentials. As such matters were
>>introduced by others they are certainly fair game for me to
>>discuss.
>>
>>>> Note here we have identification without what one would
>basically
>>>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>>>those claiming the credentials. One has to accept that
>>>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>>>fact available through this medium.
>>
>>> I suspect that a careful analysis of the post here over time will
>>> demonstrate that the academics are careful to provide detailed
>>> citations when appropriate. I suspect that a careful analysis of
>>> previous posts between the academics and you will indicate that
>the
>>> academics began by carefully citing sources and found that you
>showed
>>> no interest or skill in actively discussing the key points in
>those
>>> sources LET ALONE READING ANY OF THEM. I suspect that interviews
>with
>>> all of the academics regularly posting here would reveal that none
>of
>>> them has any respect for you at all and considers that you, at
>this
>>> point in time, merit nothing more than ridicule.
>>
>> But in this case we have people in computer science claiming to
>>know science.
>>
>> And you will note that not only do I read most all of what is
>>posted here in support of the claims I also comment upon them
>>when they contain conflicting details, either with physical law
>>or other such posts. Thus it is unclear why you would make the
>>claim that I do not read what is posted here.
>>
>> And as for your academics posting here, which are declared
>>specialists upon the holocaust? A truly multidisciplinary
>>approach would certainly consider all inputs as equal rather than
>>ridiculing that which they are unprepared to understand.
>>
>>> Case in point: why should anyone (let alone a scholar) try to
>debate
>>> Goldhagen’s thesis with you when you:
>>
>>> 1. HAVEN’T EVEN READ THE BOOK
>>> 2. Misrepresent what is put in front of you in this conference
>>> 3. Focus in on miniscule unimportant points from the book and
>refuse to
>>> drop them even when it is demonstrated you are wrong.
>>
>> I have commented upon what was posted here. Any
>misreprestation
>>that you see is you not liking the consequences of what was
>>posted. According to what was posted here about the book the
>>”miniscule” point has been blaiming every German for the actions
>>of the SS.
>>
>> You folks have cherished myths that exist independent of each
>>other and you will not face the consequences of those myths or of
>>comparing those myths to each other. Why you have those
>>problems, I have no idea.
>>
>>>> But the few references to the FAQs find them asking more
>>>>questions than they are answering. The talk.origins FAQs at
>>>>least has dozens of answers to the creationists and the flood
>>>>lovers and take as little guff from those who have no
>>>>comprehension of physical law.
>>
>>> The Nizker FAQ does essentially the same thing. Have you read it?
>>
>> Several of them. And, as you know, I have posted some of the
>>conflicting truths and false to physical fact and law in them.
>>Are you saying you have not read what I have posted? Are you
>>saying you have not read my many references within other messages
>>to the conflicts in the Nizkor FAQs as related to the point I am
>>addressing?
>>
>> Why are you either a) making that claim or b) not reading what
>I
>>post here before you form an opinion?
>>
>>>> For example the t.o FAQs will provide dozens of examples of
>>>>transitional species in answer to the claim there are no
>>>>transitional species. The holocaust FAQS are silent [on] dozens of
>>>>examples of death from CO in 15-30 minutes as well as silent on
>>>>dozens of examples of cremation times and all the rest.
>>
>>> As I look up the 66 Questions and Responses at Nizkor, I find in
>the
>>> middle of them the questions on Zyklon-B:
>>
>> Back up and read. The subject is CO.
>>
>>> “27.What kind of gas was used by the Nazis in concentration
>camps?
>>
>>> 28.For what purpose was, and is, this gas manufactured?
>>
>>> 29.Why did they use this instead of a gas more suitable for mass
>>> extermination?
>>
>>> 30.How long does it take to ventilate fully an area fumigated by
>>> Zyklon-B?
>>
>>> 31.Auschwitz commandant Hoss said that his men would enter the
>gas
>>> chamber ten minutes after the Jews had died and remove them. How
>do
>>> you explain this?
>>
>>> 32.Hoss said in his confession that his men would smoke
>cigarettes as
>>> they pulled the dead Jews out of the gas chambers ten minutes
>after
>>> gassing. Isn’t Zyklon-B explosive?”
>>
>>> And of course the answers to these questions are posted as well.
>You
>>> are right that there are no CO questions and answers, apparently
>>> because the IHR had not raised this point. Possibly the Nizkor
>>> volunteers will assemble answers regarding CO (if they perceive it
>is
>>> more than one lunatic who is asserting the matter is of
>importance.)
>>
>> Why would ONLY the interest of the IHR provoke such effort?
>That
>>indicates it has chosen the IHR as its enemy and acts only in
>>response to what they do. I thought the purpose was an extensive
>>documentation of event and available material despite its use of
>>the near worthless REGEX for searching.
>>
>> But as another example, you had to throw in the “lunatic” yet
>the
>>times I gave are the shortest and longest that have been posted
>>here from “eyewitness” testimony. They they must be the lunatics
>>you are referring to. And yet those lunatics are the basis for
>>the stories.
>>
>>>> It is barely a fair comparison to equate holohuggers with
>>>>creationists. At least the creationists have invented their own
>>>>fabulous sciences to support their claims. The holohuggers have
>>>>not even bothered to create their own fabulous science as an
>>>>underpinning for their claims.
>>
>>> It is not necessary to. Real science works just fine.
>>
>> Do to your ignorance of the subject, you are unaware that it
>does
>>not.
>>
>>
>>——————-
>>alt.revisionism
>>
>>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>>
>> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>>

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colin McGregor <[email protected]> To: Matt Giwer <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: mail bombing by your company
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
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On Fri, 3 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

> I have some 40 copies of this same message and I will be happy to
> send all of them to you. They all arrived today.
>
> As mail bombing is now official idirect policy, I do not see you
> will have any objection, should you fail to respond, again requesting
> assisstance from your users.

We will investigate this.

Colin McGregor
Internet Direct

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 22:31:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
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Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 2 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> It is
>> unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>> involved with secular history. But if it is religious history
>> that makes Nizkor a religious site.
>>

>Damn! I guess we’d better start an investigation of what religion
>Tucson’s Pima Air Museum is affiliated with!

If you are really interested you could write the address where
contributions are accepted and ask.
—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34633 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:38:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Again, in regards to the Kellog-Briand Pact, its violation by Germany, and
>> >the bringing of charges against Nazi officials for waging aggressive
>> >warfare, has little to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany
>> >was a signatory _prior_ to the violations that were committed.
>>
>> This is where the discussion had progressed when it was dropped
>> and you folks forgot all about it.
>>
>> It was at this point I noted that laws carry a penalty section
>> also. I further noted there were no penalties to individuals for
>> violations of these treaties nor was there an enforcement
>> organization established by these treaties.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems blissfully unawares that the issue of ex post
>facto laws derive from the maxim _Nulla poeans sine lege_, or “No
>punishment without law.” This, of course, is not the same thing as a law
>or, this particlar case, international treaty, without a specified
>punishment.

>To reiterate, as Giwer did not care to address the specifics of my
>previous post:

>To clarify the issue once more, it is worth noting that the issue of the
>”ex post facto problem” arose in the context of the waging of aggressive
>warfare. Telford Taylor discussed the “ex post facto problem” as follows
>(_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.50-51, p.51fn):

> In view of the criminal charges listed in the draft executive agreement,
> I had of course been hearing much discussion of the question of whether
> the launching of aggressive war could legitimately be treated as an
> international-law crime. I wrote:

This is an awfully long post and of course I have saved it for
reference.

But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
Auschwitz?

Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
justice.

It is the hypocritic attempt to cloak victor’s justice with the
sanctimony of an OJ sytle trial that bothers me.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:20:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > By the way Mr Van Alstine, before to continue, I would like to know what
>>> > was exactly your reference about those burning pits were the germans were
>>> > suppose to burn bodies and collect fat…

>>Mr. Beaulieu can find references from which fat was collected as fuel for
>>the fire in the incineration pits in:

>>_The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.

>Yup:

>”Eight pits were dug, each about 4 by 60 yards in size. On the bottom
>of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back into the fire
>with buckets to hasten the cremations.”

Now we are back to people supporting the idiot fat story because
there was absolutely uncontestable eyewitness testimony.

Can you explain the property of human fat such that it does not
burn when first exposed to fire but burns after collection?

Do you think I could save a load of charcoal and simply light all
that collected fat in the bottom of the BBQ?

It is amazing what people can believe when they want to believe.
And we will even have one of our resident chemists coming back
with his old bone burning routine. He didn’t like fat in bone
ash last time. It got in the way of his cherished belief.

>>_Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.463.

>Yup:

>”With the Soviet forces fast approaching Romania, time was of the
>essence. A large number of prisoners were employed to bring the
>destruction machinery up to date. Under Moll’s direction, the
>crematoria were renovated: the furnaces relined, the chimenys were
>strengthened with iron bands, the loading and unloading ramps were
>completed with a three-track railway system that provided a direct
>link to the death furnaces, and large pits were dug in the immediate
>vicinity of the gas chambers for the burning of the large number of
>corpses that the crematoria could not handle. Each pit was 40 to 50
>meters long, 8 m wide, and 2 m deep. At the bottom of each pit a
>channel was dug in the center to make possible the “harvesting” of the
>fat exuding from the burning corpses for reuse as fuel in the
>cremation process. At the height of the deportations from Hungary nine
>such pits were in operation, in addition to the crematoria.”

It is not strange to find you posting such a thing. The truly
strange thing is that you believe it. If someone else has the
time they might go over the rest of the absurdities in this
paragraph.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 34636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:05:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 6:08:24 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:

>[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>>Stangl said to Sereny: “Nobody knew nothing, nothing clear, guessed
>>nothing. But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
>>the camp; along the barriers, trying to buy things because they knew
>>the existence of all this business. During a time, we even saw planes
>>flying low to see what happened [..]. We shot and they stopped. But we
>>were never able to stop the others. They saw corpses of Jews on the
>>terrain or carried out of the station. They photographed them. The
>>whole place stank miles away. Two weeks after a “visit”, many people
>>told they could no longer eat. But no, they knew nothing clear,
>>nothing. Of course..”

> Of course any proof always comes from eyewitnesses. Anyway
>here we have hundreds of soldiers and civilians prowling the the
>perimeter, right up against the fence on both sides buying and
>selling. Wait a minute, didn’t Mr.Bilik just say “… it was strongly
>forbidden to come closer or to look inside …”?

Ah, yes, they had to stay so far away that they confused engine
exhaust with steam.

>>”The women and children from the arriving transport were divided into
>>groups of 200 each and were taken to the “baths”, which was located
>>closest to the digging machine. From the bath nobody returned, and
>>news groups were entering there constantly. That bath was actually a
>>house of murder. The floor in this barrack opened up and the people
>>fell into a machine. According to the opinion of some of thouse who
>>escaped, the people in the barrack were gassed. According to another
>>opinion they were killed by electrical current. From the small tower
>>over the bath, there were constant shots. [..]. The bath absorbs 200
>>people every fifteen minutes, so in twenty-four hours the capacity is
>>20000 people. That was the explanation for the incessant arrival of
>>people in the camp, from where there was no return, except a few
>>hundred who succeeded in escaping during the whole time..”

> “Digging machine”? “The floor …opened up and the people fell
>into a machine”? People from a tower shot down into the bath. The
>bath “absorbs” 20,000 people a day?

Of course, we must ignore the ridiculous parts of the story so
that the truth is preserved for all posterity.

>>So, in September 42, indications are precise, quoting even the
>>Lazarett, and the uncertainty concerns the exact mode of execution.
>>That’s logical since there is no escape once in the highest part of
>>the camp, and very few contacts between the two parts. It is the best
>>testimony possible at this time. A lot believed that the noise of
>>Diesel was coming from the digger.

>”True also that it was quickly no secret about what happened into the
>camp.”

>”… it was strongly forbidden to come closer or to look inside …”?

>”But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
>the camp; along the barriers, …”
>
>You better post the eyewitnesss testimony. In its full.

Even the truth can be anti-semitic.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34637 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 05:51:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 12:50:55 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## What’s the matter, Giwer old boy? You want a postscript file
>## of my doctoral thesis? Shoot, maybe I shouldn’t take the risk?
>## After all, the 163-IQ man might find an error in it (smirk).

># You have my email address if you want to take a shot at it. But
># first convert it to plain ascii as postscript is of no value to
># me.

>Won’t work – all the formulas and figures can’t be converted to ascii.

>## Name one SS-man from Treblinka, Belzec, or Sobibor, who
>## testified to murder by such methods.

># I was thinking of victim statements.

>Name one member of the sodnerkommando at Treblinka who gave
>such testimony. As I said, these testimonies originated from
>members of the Polish underground who were spying on the
>camps from a distance.

Have you really missed all that has been posted here on the
subject in the last couple days? If you really have I will
happily dig some up and post them again.

># How does one confuse white condensed steam (clouds at best)
># with with blue-black exhaust?

>As I recall, when, in the Pattle et. al. experiment, the engine
>was run in high fuel-air ratios, ther was a lot of white
>smoke in the chamber (and, BTW, this resulted in the quickest
>death for the animals exposed to the exhaust).

No there is not. When an engine is running rich the exhaust
comes out black. If you have ever seen a car old enough not to
be EPA approved, when the pedal is put down, the exhaust is
black. That is partially burned hydrocarbons. On a diesel it is
worse as they are added to the black particulate carbon that is
emitted.

>Prof. Pfannenstiel testified of the peephole being covered with steam.
>Another factor must have been the enormous heat in the chamber,
>which resulted in the victims sweating.

Although the temperature would rise considerably, probably on the
order of 500 degrees the condensation would in no manner result
in enough to give the slighest whiteness to this black. It is
simply a matter of the maximum throughput rate of sweat ducts.
Most of it would remain as liquid on the skin as the body
temperate would be dominant over the evaporation rate.

While condensation on glass could be explained by the evaporation
it is not clear how it could have lasted long given the
temperature of the gases in the room. Glass has a very low
thermal conductivity and once the surface was heated the
condensation would go away. Any condensation would certainly
have been quite temporary.

># And certainly they would at some point have noticed quantities of
># fuel being pumped into the tanks and noticed the coincident sound
># of the engines.

>There were no tanks there. Only the engines. And how could they
>see the fuel being pumped into it? As for the noise, it depends
>on how far they were.

FUEL tanks. These things needed fuel tank. Certainly they would
have removed not only the engines but the fuel tanks, the
batteries, the entire ignition system and wiring in addition to
the engine mounts. If they did not take the engine mounts, and
it is not clear how they could without taking the tank frame with
it, then all of the connections to it would have broken by
vibration.

It would be no different from trying to take an engine out of a
car today. That is why I have said the claim of engines only is
rather ridiculous when simply moving the tank into position would
be so much easier. The way it is currently described they still
had to bring in the tank chassis but went through the effort of
removing all of the armor and cutting away half of the chassis
before doing so.

You need to think these claims through before you accept them.

># Clearly your explanation is not reasonable yet you will not take
># kindly to even a question of this hypothetical explanation.

>It’s perfectly reasonable; it’s just that Nazi-lovers will go to
>any length to defend their heroes and deny the atrocities they
>committed.

You are the one who has no concept of what you are talking about.
It is not reasonable to believe that partially burned
hydrocarbons were white at Treblinka when in all other places and
times they are black. You are the one who has massively
dissected tanks when the tanks themselves would have been
infinitely easier to use.

You are the one who believes instead of skeptically reviewing
your beliefs against known fact.

># Lets get on to the electrocution. Did they see flashing lights
># inside at night?

>I have no idea what they saw. As noted, there were incorrect rumors,
>as with every historical event. Like the people “glowing orange and
>vanishing” during the bombing of Dresden.

Which is no different from claiming that a rich fuel mixture
would appear white.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:43:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 6:42:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Both Mike Curtis and Mark Van Alstine are correct.
>Giwer and Beaulieu are wrong to question these two honest researchers.

Curtis is an honest researcher. At some time in your life you
probably had some experience with BBQ. Did you ever collect the
fat from the bottom of it? Your “honest researcher” believes fat
doesn’t burn the first time it is exposed to fire but only the
second time. Or perhaps he believes it is only human fat that is
different.

>Giwer, doesn’t know his ass from third base, that’s a give.

Your “honest researcher” is as ignorant as you.

Beaulieu,
>seems like a denier to me. In any case the question is about “burning
>pits” at The Nazi Death Camp “Auschwitz.” The pits were there in July
>of 1945. I saw them, still contained bones and ashes.

You were now in Poland in 1945? You did say you fought for the
Red Army, didn’t you? Did you do all of this liberation
single-handed or did you simply fail map reading and not know
where you were?

A deligation of
>American ranking officers were flown to Krakow and taken to Auschwitz-
>Birkenau, where we spent six days, hosted by Russian Officers.

Now this one is easy. You were a ranking officer. What rank?
We have the name. A serial number would help. After all, you
should be (but no holohugger will) subject your claims to the
same scrutiny as Al Gentile’s.

They
>escorted us to every nook and cranny of this horrible place. 10,000 or
>so inmates were still there, very ill. The Soviet doctors did
>everything in their power to save those people who had been left to
>die by the departed SS, along with many thousands of inmates who were
>forced to march toward Germany. Most of them didn’t make it. They died
>or were killed by the SS enroute. All of the baloney which the deniers
>have posted since I joined this newsgroup 4 months ago, regarding the
>crematoriums, gas chambers, burning pits and just about everything
>they try to tear apart from the truth of what really happened during
>the existance of this most notorious “Death Camp” of them all, is
>second guessing, opinions of so-called “experts” none of whom knew
>what to look for, and most lied in their reporst to the denier groups.
>Claims are made that the Commandant Hoess confessed under torture, but
>he wrote his Autobiography, after the Nuremberg trials, while in a
>Polish prison for two years.

You mean the autobiography that did not appear in print until
1959 according to the Auschwitz FAQ? You mean the man who was
not tried until March 1947 spent his time writing a detailed
confession that would constitute his death warrant? Is this the
person you are talking about?

In his own words, Hoess tells of the
>number of people he could gas and cremate when in full operation. He
>claims they could gas, and burn up to six thousand people per day
>seven days per week and they did just that. He doesn’t say every day,
>or every week, just that it could be done and was done. When twelve
>American officers from SHAEF toured the camp, our interpreters and the
>Russian interpreters talked to all of us and explained how the camp
>was when they liberated it, and what changes they had made, (very few)
>and how they had provided proper burials for any inmate who died after
>liberation, and many did. We flew back to Frankfurt, Germany, the
>SHAEF people made out their reports, the pilots were assigned to fly
>Brass around Europe until we came home. In my case, Dec 1945.
>So proceed all you doubters, deniers, hairsplitters, so-called experts
>and all the rest. Continue your silly arguments about things you know
>nothing about except what some so-called scholor or so-called expert
>wrote in his book. It happened just like the history books say it
>happened, and nothing you deniers say can change one iota of the
>truth.
>Chuck Ferree

It is completely unclear what your role in this was. A high
ranking officer? A pilot? A translator? A member of an
officers’ staff?

This is all quite a ways from only a few months earlier having
been a camp liberator.

Or am I using up too much of the newsgroup with this post?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34649 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 00:34:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 7:38:13 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >I’ve seen both photos, and the I posted looks nearly the same, accepting
>> >that it was not in color of course. The one that _was_ in color clealrly
>> >show blue stains on the wall that the door is in. And yes, the caption to
>> >it commented on the stains being a by-product of HCN gas. (i.e. “Prussian
>> >Blue?”)
>>
>> One will hope you have the courtesy to post the color picture and
>> then explain the iron wall. You will remember there was a long
>> holohugger post about the third valence state of iron to get this
>> color.

>One would have hoped YOU would have had the courtesy to sew your lips shut
>a long time ago, Mr. “I see steps on the ramp without looking at the
>photo” Giwer. But, alas, it was not to be….

>As for posting the _color_ photo, of the Madjanek gas chamber, alas, that
>is not to be as I don’t have a color scanner. Nor the inclination to
>oblige you even if I did Mr. “The furnaces made more HCN than was in the
>gas chamber- Because I Say So!” Giwer. You asked for a photo of a the gas
>chamber and I posted it. You want another? Post it yourself.

You could at least document the iron wall construction. And of
course, as you now know, one of the commercial sources of HCN is
>from the flue gases of coke fires.

As for the picture you did post, there is not one thing about the
picture to indicate what it might be. And although it is of
extremely poor quality there appear to be two rectangular objects
mounted on the left wall and the door appears to be wood and
appears to have a handle on the inside.

You have posted nothing but a very poor quality picture and
claimed that it is a gas chamber. I could have done that.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Junior Holocaust Defense Leagues starts next Saturday morning
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 00:37:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 7:38:15 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Harry Katz) writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whined about his abnormally high IQ:
>>
>> I was asked what it was. I only posted the lowest number I have
>> ever been told. If you have a problem with that, it means you
>> are only a genius.
>>
>>
>> I responded:
>>
>> Which only proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually dishonest,
>> as he uses his vaunted “high IQ” to construct specious arguments
>> — that is, arguments that seem logical, but are really
>> illogical!

> What you seem to forget is that the only evidence Giwer has posted of
>his I.Q. is eyewitness testimony. He has also told us that eyewitness testimony is
>*always* unreliable. It was all just a test to see if you can reason logically. Those
>who can, will readily discern that Giwer is being dishonest when he reports his
>I.Q.

> –YFE

Still haven’t mastered the killfile I see.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:02 PDT 1996
Article: 34652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Les Griswold: Leader
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:06:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 8:02:46 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19033 alt.discrimination:46427 alt.revisionism:34652 alt.skinheads:21673 can.politics:42512

[email protected] (Kevin Alfred Strom) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?
>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

>>I wouldn’t dream of getting the Griswold fired. I want him to
>>get the recognition he so richly deserves, and have taken
>>steps to initiate that recognition by mentioning his name
>>to Members of Parliament concerned with human rights issues,
>>and to members of the Fifth Estate across Canada. It is, after
>>all, the least I can do for the pathetic little fellow.

>>I want Canadians to see his manly little physique on CPAC, our
>>Parliamentary television channel. I want them to see this
>>dark-haired, frail little “Aryan superman” in all his glory,
>>spouting incessant inanities for anyone who will listen, his
>>words of wisdom simultaneously translated into French.

>>I want Canada’s legislators to learn from the sharing of the
>>Griswold Wisdoms; hell, I want “Griswold” to become a
>>familiar name to each and every Canadian. I want Canadians to
>>thrill every time Griswold opens his little mouth.

>>I want our MP’s to hear him explain that they need to contact
>>”The head office” if they want an interview. The laughter
>>should resound from ocean to ocean on that one alone,
>>parlicularly when our Mr. “I can’t talk to the media because I am
>>too stupid, and Pierce won’t permit it” Griswold is asked to
>>reconcile this head office directive with his clear
>>achievement: He’s made a fool of himself on the internet
>>without Mr. Pierce’s approval. (Anyone reading his wise and
>>timely wisdom will recognize this at once!)

>>I want Lester to become famous throughout the land; I want him
>>to be pointed to as an example of just how far Aryan
>>Superheros can rise in our country. Security guard! Imagine
>>that! Our Noble Aryan Hero, that Leader Among Men, the head of
>>the National Appliance in Canada, Grand Fuehrer and Lord
>>Grease, Lester Griswold himself, risen on the strength of his
>>wisdom and vision to the lofty position of security guard!

>>A True Canadian Hero, our cute little Griswold, perhaps about
>>to receive the recognition he so richly deserves… wait for
>>it 🙂

>>As anyone who watched CPAC last Tuesday will tell you, Mr.
>>Griswold’s name is even now resounding in the Centre Block of
>>Parliament, and I have only begun my quest to help him achieve
>>Fame and Recognition in Canada.

>>William Pierce should enjoy it. I know I will.
>>–
>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

>Translation:

>McVay wants to use the government to intimidate, imprison, or
>otherwise ruin those with whom he disagrees. There is no other
>reasonable explanation for his statements.

>If Mr. McVay had absolute confidence in the veracity of his position,
>he would not resort to such tactics.

>Still free and still brown-haired,

I hope you are not surprised by this.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little common sense, grammar school, and chemistry
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:04:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 8:07:29 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:869 alt.revisionism:34655

[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Richard Charles Graves <[email protected]> wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]

>>Mr. Green? I believe this is where you came in.

>Mr. Giwer was going to pursue this question, but has neglected to do so.
>Perhaps he has no chemistry, grammar schooling, or common sense…

We left it the last time with you needing to demonstrate that
1/10 gm of organics can produce some 750 calories.

That is why I have not added this to the list along with your HCN
>from flue gas and burning bones routines.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 34656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected].com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson’s ‘Historical Research’
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:35:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 8:34:38 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> Suchomel, without reason to lie, repeated what he always told in the
>>> past. That’s substantially what other SS as Stangl, Horn, Munzberger
>>> said; the same what the escaped inmates said too.
>>>
>>> How could these testimonies be so concordant ?

>>That is a thought. I should point out that I haven’t ruled out the suggestion
>>that large numbers of Jews were murdered in these camps, I have made this
>>plain before – Morgen claimed this. I am saying that the figures are absurb
>>and grotesque and that the mass gassing stories are piffle. As to whether
>>there were any gassings at all…

>>I will say that the little I have read about Treblinka et al so far does not
>>lend much credence to the Exterminationist version.

>I don’t understand your point. If you don’t rule out the “suggestion”
>that large numbers of Jews were murdered in this camp (and it’s wise,
>since many people saw the convoys, the burnings from several
>kilometers, and even in the station a dozen of cars at a time going to
>Treblinka and coming back emptied a few hours later), what do you
>think it could occur to these Jews ? A different method of mass
>murdering ?

When people want to believe something they will believe it no
matter what?

Convoys of what? How would they know the cars that left were
empty any more than they would know they were full when entering?

What about burnings did they see for kilometers?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:08:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 9:04:46 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:34657 soc.culture.jewish:47486 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19036 soc.culture.israel:32482

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>The targets were launch sites. It’s really that simple, Matt.
>!
>!An ambulance was a launch site?
>!A power station was a launch site?
>!Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?
>!Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?

>What crap you anti-Semites work with this issue. It was a mistake, an
>awful mistake, we all know it was a mistake because there would be no
>motive AT ALL for bombing a UN refugee hospital. A 300 meter long range
>artillery mistake.

After they were told on the telephone that it was a refugee camp,
it was a mistake? After they carefully targeted the camp it was
a mistake?

>None of the attacks on Isrealies are MISTAKES.
>Neither was the Holocaust Giwer…
>It was a PLANNED EXTERMINATION USING GAS.
>Got it? Good…

Been listening to me on the radio again?

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
>Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 06:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 34658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor, need a tax break today?
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:59:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 198
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 8:56:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:

>: >: >Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:
>: >: >>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] “Matt Giwer” writes:

>: >: >Chuck Ferree writes:
>: >: >>
>: >: >>
>: >: >>> The assertion was that the immigration laws were anti-semitic because
>: >: >>> “there was no place for them to go.” You have still failed to support
>: >: >>> that contention.

>: >: >Giwer is full of hocky-puke, as usual. There was no place for the Jews to go
>: >: for one thing, and for another, that MF Hitler and his =
>: >: >gang of turkeys, wouldn’t let them go anyplace where they couldn’t get their
>: >: hands on them, because the plan was to rid Europe of al=
>: >: >l Jews once and for all times. Hitler’s words.

>: >: So because there was no place for them to go (so you say) imigration
>: >: laws were anti-semitic. Save of course that those of the US were by
>: >: country of origin quotas and had nothing with religion or race or
>: >: whatever. Both Christian and Jewish Germans faced exactly the same
>: >: US quotas and religion was not a consideration.

>: >BZZZZT!

>: >GIWER IMMIGRATION IGNORANCE ALERT: The Giwer still has not taken the
>: >time to pick up a book on immigration history or a book on immigration law.
>: >He still hasn’t figured out the difference between asylum law and regular
>: >immigration law. He still hasn’t bothered to check the Congrssional
>: >Record to see what Congressmen were saying about preventing Jewish
>: >immigration. He can’t figure out why there would be a difference under
>: >asylum policy between Jewish and Chrisitian Germans.

>: In other words you can merely claim that any of that means there
>: were such laws. There were no immigration laws based upon
>: religion and you know it. And in knowing it you should be honest
>: enough to admit it.

>: But were I to rely upon the Congressional Record I could prove
>: Blacks, Mexicans and Chinese raped white women when they used
>: their favorite drug.

>: After all, it was said by a Congressman of the Newnited States so
>: it has to be true.

>(Sigh) Well, I can see that attempting to educate Mr. Giwer as to how the
>immigration sytem worked (and worls) is impossible. I’ve stated over and
>over again that the “laws” (statutes) do not mention religion, and the
>Guwer knows this. What he can’t figure out is that under the laws,
>quotas were set every year, but these quotas are not called “laws.”

Nor did they mention the tribal membership of the person’s
mother, yet you still assert the laws were antisemitic.

>Obviously I’m using words too big for Mr. Giwer. If someone can explain
>it in 3rd-grade language which he’ll understand, give it a try.
>Also, someone should explain to him how the COngressional Record works.
>he can’t seem to distinguish the “one minutes” from the legislative
>history or administrative concerns.

In that case, all you might have at best is the opinion of a few
congresscritters.

>: >In other words, the Giwer still doesn’t know a thing about immigration,
>: >but that doesn’t stop him from posting the following ignorant tripe:

>: >: You posted a clearly false statement and you try to cover it up by
>: >: calling me names.

>: >Given the next statements, the pot.kettle.black-o-meter is registering
>: >off the scale.

>: If there were honesty here, you would admit there were no such
>: immigration laws. But you will keep repeating this article of
>: your faith because your faith is more important that the truth.
>: And don’t every forget to claim that anyone who points out your
>: faith is nonsense is denying the holocaust.

>: Your faith is not sacred to anyone but you.

>Mr. Giwer, much as I enjoy your trolling, I might as well signal you now
>that trying to burn me on immigration law is going to make you look more
>than a little stupid. It’s already apparent that you know nothing about
>immigration law. but what the heck — if you really feel up to it, go
>ahead and start by finding where I said immigration “laws” kept the
>Joooos out. Then continue your education by looking up what “plenary
>power” means.

You did not say what you now claim. You in fact claimed they
were antisemitic. You claim remains false.

>: >: It is not surprising from a stupid little shit who has
>: >not the
>: >: slightest idea how the internet works and indulges in send vague email
>: >: threats which are posted hear for the amusement of the multitude.

>: >: But answer the question. Can you breath and type at the same time?

>: >Probably not — I don’t know of anyone who can “breath.” Take a deep
>: >breath, try to breathe, and tell us where you get your immigration
>: >information.

>: And again, if you were honest you would admit that your faith is
>: false.

>If you were honest, you’d stop trolling and find another way to have a life.

You claim remains false.

>: >: >>A point you may both be missing is that the Jews in Europe and the displaced
>: >: >>persons after the war wanted to go to the Promised Land, ie the United States.

>: >: >Some did, and some want to go to Palestine, which always has
>: >: been the Jews Promised Land.

>: >: A silly superstition of a primitive religion held by a people who were
>: >: never in Egypt and there was never anything to promise it to them is
>: >: hardly worth interjecting.

>: >Now is this based on personal knowledge? Do you talk to G-d a lot, Mr.
>: >Giwer? That would explain a lot.

>: You get your truths from old tribal myths. I prefer to rely upon
>: archaeology myself. It is such old news there is even a TV
>: series on it.

>I know, I’ve seen your website distortion of the series with Mr.
>Rhys-Davies. A
>very bizarre rendering of what was on the program, to say the least. I’m
>curious, though, to hear what other sources you claim besides that one
>series.

No evidence in any manner the Hebrews were ever in Egypt has been
known for decades. This stuff is just the another nail in the
coffin for the stories. It all gets back to the “eyewitness”
testimony but lack of evidence thing. That is why the article
makes a point of the positive evidence against the stories.

>: >: >>The Zionists

>: >: >The Zionists didn’t run the whole show. Any more than
>: >: Mother Theresa ran the operation at Bergen-Belsen. Baron, you
>: >: historical ninco=
>: >: >mpoop!

>: >: The terrorist Zionists were in fact behind the creation of Israel. Or
>: >: did you miss that?

>: >Sure,sure, we know how you feel, Mr. Giwer. And it’s too bad, you’re
>: >right; those terrorist FOunding Fathers creating the United States, those
>: >terrorist Zionists founding Israel; life sucks when viewed through the
>: >lens of a simpleton, doesn’t it?

>: Your ignorance of the difference between terrorist and military
>: is quite confused. Or can you find a bombing of a civilian
>: target like the King David Hotel done by one of our Founding
>: Fathers?

>Well, golly, Mr. Happy, strangley enough, one doesn’t have to “bomb” to
>be a terrorist. And look up the British descriptions of the
>unconventional tactics used during the Revolution.

Unconventional tactics are now terrorism? Quite a reach there.

>Second, I know this is difficult, but Ben-Gurion and Begin were not the
>same man, and in fact hated each other. Begin and the Irgun didn’t found
>the state, Mapai did, and the Irgun rank-and-file were out of it until
>the late 70s.

Do I take this as an agreement that the Irgun and the Stern Gang
were terrorists?

>: BTW: I have heard the article of faith about that terrorist
>: bombing before. I know your dogma holds it was really a military
>: target. And it was OK to do because they were warned.

>Well, I didn’t say that, but I think I’ll troll for a day and take you up
>on it. Are you suggesting the British Military HQ was not a legitimate
>target?

The target was the diplomatic headquarters, as you know.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 07:07:25 PDT 1996
Article: 19041 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:38:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>>>: [email protected] (Les Griswold) wrote:
>>
>>>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?
>>
>>>: Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor. Who was it who
>>>: said, Jews never forget?
>>
>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?
>>
>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.
>>
>> If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.

>You are evading, Giwer.

>Where, exactly, has Ken McVay or anyone connected with Nizkor stated that
>it is a purpose of Nizkor to get Les Griswold fired from his job?

>_You_ made the claim, Giwer. Do you have the guts to either back it up or
>admit that you were lying?

If you have not read it, complain to your provider about your
news feed. Is that clear enough?

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 07:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 27604 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Your IF is a really shitty try.
>>
>> It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

> It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer’s inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

> Here’s a far better example.

> There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, “When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing….”

> It is true that this text exists in the Talmud. The truth – the
>_full_ truth – is not antisemitic. But the statement is – it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

> The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape. In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim’s father. The phrase which translates “it is nothing” is an
>idiom meaning “it has no bearing on the matter at hand” – the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult’s
>action.

It doesn’t sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm. Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>> If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

> That is correct. And the same is true of any prejudicial statement.
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker’s own group.

This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist. But then, as
above, it still doesn’t look very good.

>> It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

> Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise.

Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 10:32:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47499 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Your IF is a really shitty try.
>>
>> It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

> It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer’s inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

> Here’s a far better example.

> There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, “When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing….”

> It is true that this text exists in the Talmud. The truth – the
>_full_ truth – is not antisemitic. But the statement is – it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

> The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape. In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim’s father. The phrase which translates “it is nothing” is an
>idiom meaning “it has no bearing on the matter at hand” – the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult’s
>action.

It doesn’t sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm. Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>> If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

> That is correct. And the same is true of any prejudicial statement.
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker’s own group.

This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist. But then, as
above, it still doesn’t look very good.

>> It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

> Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise.

Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 10:32:27 PDT 1996
Article: 47517 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Roger Froikin <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
>> on those caught in the act. The claim was that they were
>> attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

>As demonstrated on CNN and the DSS All News Channel, Israelis were
>utilizing an American designed computerized targeting system that
>automatically calculated and targetted the sources of rocket fire. If
>that means targeting “suspected” locations of Hezbollah, fine.

A refugee camp was a launch site? ITN news carried the statement
of the UN man who ran the camp. First there were ranging shots
and then they opened up on the center of the camp AFTER he had
called to tell them they were targeting a refugee camp. Now that
is suspicious.

>> Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
>> limiting their attacks to only the militant wing. Either that or
>> they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

>The targets were launch sites. It’s really that simple, Matt.

An ambulance was a launch site?

A power station was a launch site?

Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?

Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:37:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 155
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 1:36:29 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> >
>> >> Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>> >> there is none.
>>
>> > You continue to make this assertion. You have yet to explain why
>> >Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical
>evidence (in
>> >Frank’s case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence
>that
>> >was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison. Nor have you
>gotten
>> >off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this
>miscarriage of
>> >justice was perpetrated.
>>
>> Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
>> the property room?

> This is silly. It is taken under oath both by the person testifying and the
>person making a record of it. I can conceive of no reason to keep it in a
>”propertry room.” I have never even heard of a Court maintaining a “property
>room” for evidence. In every court of which I am aware exhibits admitted into
>evidence are stored by the clerk (in Pennsylvania “prothonotary”) *with* the
>pleadings and the transcript of testimony (if printed). It is most certainly given a
>”number” for the simple reason that it might have to be found later.

One more time. Even for those whose only knowledge of such
matters is the OJ trial. Evidence is something tangible,
something that is not subject to fallable memory or fallable
statement of that memory.

If you have been paying attention to the Whitewater trial you
will note that previous statements of witnesses are being used to
impugn the present statements. It is the transcript of the
previous statements that were introduced into evidence not the
present testimony. The present testimony can be introduced, as a
transcript, into evidence in an appeal.

Why do I have to continue to explain this to a professed
attorney? Does this attorney get an ego boost from the adulation
of those who know less than he does?

Are you certain you are practicing or are you just too many years
away from being a trial attorney to remember these details?

>>Testimony is not evidence for the manyth
>> time. The details of a particular case do not change testimony
>> into evidence.

> And for the manyth time you are wrong. Please show me a single legal
>scholar or treatise on evidence (hint: “Wigmore’ is the biggie) who says that.

If you are claiming an appelate court as above …

>> And as I said in the beginning, oh killfile challenged one, there
>> are cases where a conviction can be obtained without evidence.

> That is a lie. You stated that eyewitness testimony could only be used
>to confirm physical evidence.

I stated that there were exceptional cases such as a murder
conviction without a body.

You gave as an example the silly statement that
>the prosecution cannot prove rape without *physical* evidence of sexual
>intercourse. I gave you two example (Frank and Maloney) where there was no
>physical evidence used and where the defendants were not only convicted but
>are still in prison. Further in the Frank case the prosecutor specifically *had*
>physical evidence and refused to produce it.

You gave me two cases where there was a serious miscarriage of
justice and most likely the result of an incompetent defense such
as a person who confuses testimony and evidence would provide.

>> >> >> You are a lying little shit and you know it. You know testimony
>> >> >>is not evidence.
>>
>> > The teaching of every law school and every judge in the United States
>> >disagrees with you. For some reason I do not find that surprising.
>>
>> That is of course testimony is numbered and kept in the property
>> room. That is why the oath begins “The evidence you are about to
>> give.”

> You have yet to demonstrate that *any* evidence is so used. Exhibits
>are marked with a number for identification. There is, obviously, no reason to do
>that with the notes of testimony. Further both exhibits and testimony are stored
>together by the clerk. Finally the oath in Pennsylvania is “I swear (affirm) that the
>*evidence* that I give here today is the truth . . . .”

You practice in a strange strange state. Even California says
“testimony” and that is the strangest state I know of. I have
taken that oath in Virginia three times and it was always
testimony. Are you certain you are practicing?

>> You know, at one time I was told that the new entrants to law
>> school were given a few lectures on analytic thought and at some
>> time in their tour had to evidence same. I am beginning to think
>> I was mislead.

> You were right. It is you who has no concept of the words you are
>using

>> The marks on test bullet may or may not match those of the bullet
>> found in the body. The testimony of the expert may or may not
>> claim they match. It is the pictures of the marks that are given
>> to the jury that is evidence. The testimony about the marks is
>> only an opinion.

> The opinion of an expert *is* evidence. Period. In fact, there is a
>specific charge to the jury in Pennsylvania stating that and another specific
>charge on how the jury is to evaluate this evidence. In each case the opinion
>testimony of the expert is referred to as *evidence.* While there are literally
>thousands of references that directly refute you let me give just a few derived
>from opening the Federal Rules of Evidence at random:

> Rule 412 (a): (a/k/a “Rape Shield Law) “. . . .reputation or opinion
>evidence of the past sexual behavior of the alleged victim . . . . ”

> Rule 412 (b): “. . . .evidence of a victim’s past sexual behavior other
>than reputation or opinion evidence is also not admissible, unless such evidence
>other than reputation or opinion evidence . . . .”

> Rule 608 (a): “The credibility of a witness may be attacked or
>supported by evidence in the form of opinion or reputation . . . . ”
>
> I note that, as usual, the assertions here are ipse dixit statements. Why
>don’t you open a book (“Wigmore on Evidence” is the standard).

But of course said “evidence” must be introduced as evidence in a
form that is not merely testimony. As in prior convictions as
you are well aware.

> –YFE

> 163 I.Q. points and he still moves his lips when he reads.

He who would pervert his profession as one of our resident
chemists does is one that would advertise in the local TV guide.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:44:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 1:40:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>———————-
>Marty Kelley ([email protected])

>”We are now living in an era where the wall between news and
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage
>in David Crosby’s septum.”
> –Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_

Just for the record, you would do better to find a quote from
“Network” which was the first exposition of it and it certainly
started around the time Limbaugh was in diapers or high school at
best.

It never ceases to amaze me that skinny little idiots like
Franken think this is a new phenomenon or that people actually
think it is something new.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer finally wins an argument!
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 06:48:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 1:46:20 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>>>Tough. You are still a very odd old man.
>> What would age matter?

> You are correct, sir! He merely should have said, “You are still a
> very odd man.”

As previously noted, you would have to be a chilld to consider 50
old as that line is common enough to get a laugh in a TV sitcom.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !Giwerian Scholar
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 07:38:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 2:39:24 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 20:58:24 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!A fascinating belief that Gould publishes anything but a
>!popularization in his books. Or would you care to name the
>!textbooks of his you have read?

>Here we see the standard theme that you are some great intellectual
>history and science scholar, it runs through all your crap. In reality
>all you are is a slimey, bitter, lonely, anti-Semitic, right-wing
>gunloon. Its there to see in everything you type pal.

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg

Obviously your tooth told you that his popular works were indeed
profound.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:20:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 10:21:30 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27604 alt.revisionism:34674 soc.culture.jewish:47499

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Your IF is a really shitty try.
>>
>> It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

> It is not the truth per se which is antisemtic, but the statement.
>Mr. Giwer’s inability to understand this subtle difference is far from the
>worst of his problems with the English language.

> Here’s a far better example.

> There is a statement in the Talmud which is often quoted by
>antisemites, “When a man has sex with a girl less than three years and a
>day it is nothing….”

> It is true that this text exists in the Talmud. The truth – the
>_full_ truth – is not antisemitic. But the statement is – it was made
>with the intent to incite hatred of Jews.

> The statement is an antisemitic lie by omission, because the context
>of the discussion is the financial rights of such a girl when she
>eventually marries (she has the same rights as a virgin), not statutory
>rape. In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult has
>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>the victim’s father. The phrase which translates “it is nothing” is an
>idiom meaning “it has no bearing on the matter at hand” – the matter at
>hand being the rights of the girl, _not_ the acceptability of the adult’s
>action.

It doesn’t sound much better in its entirety than in the first
part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
harm. Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
still be paid.

>> If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>anti-semitic as including the truth.

> That is correct. And the same is true of any prejudicial statement.
>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>from the speaker’s own group.

This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
negative or to become a full fledged apologist. But then, as
above, it still doesn’t look very good.

>> It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.

> Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise.

Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
considered honest.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:48 PDT 1996
Article: 34675 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:22:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 10:21:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>: >: >Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>: >: ># We know from eyewitness testimony
>: >: >#
>: >: ># 1) Treblinka was gassing people with engine exhaust in 15-20
>: >: ># minutes before the first Auschwitz experiment.

>: >: >No, this is false. Again, you prove that you are, plain and simple,
>: >: >either a drunkard, senile, or simply retarded. The first gassing
>: >: >in Auschwitz took place at the end of 1941. The Treblinka gas chambers
>: >: >began operating after mid-1942.

>: >: Here is part of the message posted by good, old OBC with the
>: >: Nizkor reference. Or are you merely objecting to the date?

>: >Of course he’s objecting to the date; he’s objecting to the ORDER you
>: >placed it in — that Treblinka was before Auschwitz, your false
>: >assertion. He pointed out that Auschwitz was first, as it began in 1941,
>: >and Treblinka began “after mid-1942.”

>: It really gets hard to keep the truthes straight here. Just
>: yesterday I read a long post on how Hoess had selected one gas
>: over the other because of Treblinka’s experience with engine
>: exhaust, that it required a bullet every now and then. What is
>: the truth of the day in this regard?

>Mr. Giwer, given your propenstiy to blame your errors on what some other
>nameless person supposedly said in some other uncited post, I’ll hold off
>on answering until you show me where this was said.

Read the fine newsgroup.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B – Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:06:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 3:05:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> It also means the entire Wannsee conference was absolutely
>> >>unnecessary as it “changed” a policy of extermination in the East
>> >>to a policy of extermination in the east, i.e. no change at all.
>> >>Perhaps it was just one of the excuses for a “professional
>> >>conference” at a tourist attraction. It is certainly not unknown
>> >>but today we would correctly describe Wannsee as a boondoggle.
>>
>> >I realize that posting to you is like posting to a huge rock for it
>> >doesn’t move and it doesn’t take in anything and it has no feelings.
>> >But the purpose, as you have been told before, was to bring together
>> >disparate elements of the Nazi regime to coordinate the murder in a
>> >more systematic way.
>>
>> As you know from reading it so many times, the original policy
>> PRIOR to the conference was emigration to the east.

>GIWER HEAD-UP-ASS ALERT: What is most amazing is that Giwer, after being
>told about the killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the East, the
>preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho”ss’s
>memoirs, and Eichmann’s interrogation- all of which indicate that either
>systematic killing took place or was in planning prior to the Wannsee
>Conference -continues to bleat that the “official” Nazi policy in regards
>to the Jewish Question prior to the Wannsee Conference was merely
>”emigration to the east.” Truly it is hard to imagine a person being this
>dense. Mr. Curtis’s observation that Giwer is like a huge rock is quite
>apropo, as a huge rock approaches Giwer’s intellectual density.

You refuse to answer questions.

>> You also know there is no evidence in the document of your claim to
>> coordination as there is no reference to disparate policies prior
>> to the conference.

>GIWER LYING-THROUGH-HIS-TEETH ALERT: Of course, Giwer has been explicity
>told, many times by different people, of the killiing operations by the
>Einsatzgruppen in the East, the preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the
>Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho”ss’s memoirs, and Eichmann’s interrogation- all of
>which indicate that either systematic killing took place or was in
>planning prior to the Wannsee Conference.

You refuse to answer questions.

>> Whatever I might have been told was a obvious confabulation that
>> is contrary to the contents of the document as are your claims of
>> coordination which are not contained in the document.

>GIWER LYING-THROUGH-HIS-TEETH ALERT: What Giwer WAS told many times by
>different people, of the killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the
>East, the preparations for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter,
>Ho”ss’s memoirs, and Eichmann’s interrogation- all of which indicate that
>either systematic killing took place or was in planning prior to the
>Wannsee Conference. The only “confabulation” here is on Giwer’s part in
>regards to the Wannsee Protocol.

You refuse to answer questions.

>> Now if you willing to post further documentation of the purpose
>> of the conference then I am willing to read it. Until you do, it
>> is only your fantasy that invents what you are claiming.

>GIWER-TROLL ALERT: Giwer’s feigned “willingness” to weigh the evidence
>belays that, in fact, he has been quite unwilling of any such thing. Many
>posts, to which Giwer has “responded,” have explicity dealt with the
>killiing operations by the Einsatzgruppen in the East, the preparations
>for Aktion Reinhard, the Wetzel-Lohse letter, Ho”ss’s memoirs, and
>Eichmann’s interrogation. All of which indicate that either systematic
>killing took place or was in planning prior to the Wannsee Conference. All
>of which Giwer ignored soley on the basis of his dogmatic and patently
>absurd, not to mention unsupported, “interpretation” of the Wansee
>Protocol.

You refuse to answer questions.

>Mark

>posted/e-mailed to Mr. Curtis and Matt “Megalith” Giwer

>——————————————————————————–
>”Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties–but
>right through every human heart–and all human hearts.”

>– Alexander Solzhenitsyn, “The Gulag Archipelago”
>——————————————————————————–

You know he said the life expectancy was seven years.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:09:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 3:07:32 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Rest assured, folks: no matter what he’s talking about, Giwer
>## will make a fool of himself.

># And the source of your information that the T-16 is a heavy
># bomber in addition to the source of your information as to the
># countries that have them?

>Are you claiming that:

>1) The Tupolev T-16 is not a heavy bomber?

>2) No Arab country in the mideast ever had T-16’s?

>Please answer yes or no.

>You may consult the Egyptian and Iraqi airforce before you respond.

Buzzer there.

I asked for the source of the information that is was a heavy
bomber and the source of the information on the countries that
owned them. Obviously YOU have that information as you posted
to the contrary.

So what is the point to this game? Another pretend piece of shit
like Green the Chemist?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:50 PDT 1996
Article: 34688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:18:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 3:18:14 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 2 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

>> [email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>> > Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine
>> >what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving
>> >correspondence from Becker about gassing vans.
>>
>> > Es ist richtig, dass ich “uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von
>> > Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker gesagt, mir einen
>> > entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden.
>>
>> > My translation:
>>
>> > “It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the
>> >introduction of the gassing van. I myself had told Becker to send me a
>> >corresponding report.”
>>
>> Gaswagen is a noun. Your translation is like airplane into
>> airing plane.

>Ever hear of a participial adjective, Mr. Giwer?

Not in translation, Herr Idiot.

But it is good to see that you believe Herr Stein can not defend
himself but that you, without any knowledge of the language can
defend him.

I wear running shoes,
>the Nazis used gassing vans. If you prefer the clumsier English
>translation “Gas Van” (or even worse, “gastruck”) that’s fine, but it has no
>bearing on the authenticity of the document Mr. Stein cites.

>Have you ever read Mark Twain’s hilarious essay, “The Awful German
>Language”? I recommend it highhly.

Golly cheeze whiz, Batcritter. A parody upon English is still
believed to be about the German language. I thought the
curricula had changed by now.

>> >URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/
>> >Walter-Rauff.1972.txt
>>
>> > Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I
>> >believe you asked for. Now you have it.

>> I have evidence of a very poor translation. But I am certain our
>> resident expert in German will swear to your translation.

>What, pray tell, is the difference between “Gas Van” and “Gassing Van”?

I would have thought it would be in line with Volkswagen and
Volksing Wagen. Are you really as dumb as you pretend?

>(Keep in mind, of course, that translation using the participial adjective
>avoids a possible ambiguity in English, where “gas van” could conceivably
>refer to a gasoline tanker. In German, no such ambiguity is possible, since
>”gasoline” is “das Benzin”)

Are you the resident German expert or can he not speak for
himself either.

A peopling wagon indeed.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:51 PDT 1996
Article: 34690 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:35:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 4:38:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Thu, 02 May 1996 09:10:32 GMT, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!>What a yuck you are.

>!You and OBC have so much in common you should get together and
>!compare notes. You two could coordinate your attacks better that
>!way.

>What is the OBC?
>There is no conspiracy Giwer, its just that you are a godawful human
>being and non-godawful human beings let you have it on occasion.

>Whats so absurd about all this is that both you and Grynspan put your
>lies up against the truth, get caught over and over again, and then
>squawk like the little piggies you are about it.

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg

When are you going to carry the logo that will proudly display
that your site was given the “hate site of the week” award?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas Chambers, Air Raid Shelters & Air-Tight Doors
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:01:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>> Hence, I will assume that we’ve
>> found at least a few air raid shelters with these air-tight doors. If
>> you can provide some examples of this practice, I would greatly
>> appreciate it.

>Don’t forget showerheads. I’d like to see an example of an air-raid
>shelter with seventeen showerheads, please, Mr. Raven.

>Dare I say it…?

>”Show me or draw me an air-raid shelter with…”

>Naw. Never mind.

>Posted/emailed to Mr. Filan and Mr. Raven.
>–
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/

Email: [email protected]

Hello! I’m a 25-year-old computer programmer living in Michigan.

A child like you has somthing to say?

> [email protected] Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-“revisionism” email
> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.

Right. A “do what you are told” kid like you has something to
say.

=========

Objective

I am seeking a position with a committed group doing exciting
work on the Macintosh and/or the
Internet.

Education

Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI

B.S., Computer Science, September 1991
Advisor: Richard Carpenter
Senior Thesis (Honors): The Making of Capek, an Interactive C
Tutorial

Capek is a tool that helps teach the C language: the user
writes programs
to control robots in an integrated environment. The
framework of the
program, including the user interface for code-management
and the
arcadelike graphics code, was completed. The compiler and
linker, which
translated C into a custom RPN “machine language,” were
not coded, but
were designed in great detail: all major data structures
were defined, and
the algorithm for each pass was carefully spelled out.
The interpretor for the
custom language was neither designed nor coded.

The invented machine language bears some similarity to
Java bytecode.

Programming Experience

Developed ten commercial Macintosh applications, written in
THINK C for Lawrence
Productions Inc.:

McGee (September 1989)
Katie’s Farm (February 1990)
McGee at the Fun Fair (September 1990)
Nigel’s World (December 1991)
The Lost Tribe (January 1993)
Mind Castle: Spell of the Word Wizard (July 1993)
Nigel’s World CD version (January 1994)
Discovering America (March 1994)
McGee School Days (October 1994)
English Mechanics (February 1995)

Developed Laconic, an in-house application for Lawrence
Productions Inc. Laconic is used
to build animation sequences from static graphics using a
compiled animation-control
language. Laconic uses the same graphics framework as
commercial applications; it and the
framework were developed simultaneously in early 1992, and
continued to evolve until early
1995.

Complete understanding of the C language, thanks in part to
the development of my senior
thesis. Fifteen years of experience with Pascal (took Pascal
course in fourth grade).
Fourteen years of experience with various assembler languages
(first assembler
language class, PDP-11 assembler, in fifth grade). Nine years
of Mac programming. Six
years of professional Mac programming. Five years of
object-oriented programming in
THINK C. Familiarity with 680×0 assembler; “read-only”
knowledge of PowerPC
assembler. Some experience with perl (see my CPAN directory).
Ability to learn any
computer language quickly.

Sample code is available upon request.

Other Experience

Internet. I’ve worked extensively on the Internet since 1991.
In particular, I’ve volunteered
thousands of hours toward combatting net.hatred with the
Nizkor Project — in researching and
writing about Holocaust-denial, and in designing and coding
perl scripts for that web site.
With Jason Bobier, I conducted extensive research into the
technical and financial details of
starting own Internet Service Provider business.

Sound. Understanding of music theory and the physics of
sound. Eight years classical piano
lessons; self-taught blues/jazz improvisation. Understanding
and experience with digital
sound reproduction on several platforms, including of course
the Macintosh.

Theatre. Self-taught Technical Director and Stage Manager for
the Greedy Id Players, a
small local performance art company.

References

Tim Knapper
Vice President of Marketing
Lawrence Productions Inc.
1800 S 35th St
Galesburg, MI 49053-9687
Voice: (616) 665-7075
email: [email protected]

Mr. Knapper was my supervisor at Lawrence Productions,
1991-95.

Richard Carpenter
Dept. of Computer Science
Kalamazoo College
1200 Academy
Kalamazoo, MI 49006
Voice: (616) 337-7060
email: [email protected]

Mr. Carpenter was my advisor for my senior thesis, Winter
1990-91.

Ken McVay
address omitted for safety reasons
Vancouver, B.C.
Canada
email: [email protected]

Mr. McVay has, more than anyone else, organized the anti-Nazi
movement on the Internet.
I’ve worked with him a great deal since early 1992, though
we’ve only met once (in late 1995).

Jamie McCarthy
[email protected]

Jamies pathetic little resume is as a hired hand to Nizkor at
best.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on Civilans — US Planes in Jordan
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:50:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 4:49:59 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:34694 soc.culture.jewish:47517 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19051 soc.culture.israel:32491

Roger Froikin <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> At no time did Israel announce any pretention to returning fire
>> on those caught in the act. The claim was that they were
>> attacking suspected locations of Hizbollah.

>As demonstrated on CNN and the DSS All News Channel, Israelis were
>utilizing an American designed computerized targeting system that
>automatically calculated and targetted the sources of rocket fire. If
>that means targeting “suspected” locations of Hezbollah, fine.

A refugee camp was a launch site? ITN news carried the statement
of the UN man who ran the camp. First there were ranging shots
and then they opened up on the center of the camp AFTER he had
called to tell them they were targeting a refugee camp. Now that
is suspicious.

>> Given how extensive the attacks were, it is obvious they were not
>> limiting their attacks to only the militant wing. Either that or
>> they were indiscriminantly attacking civilians.

>The targets were launch sites. It’s really that simple, Matt.

An ambulance was a launch site?

A power station was a launch site?

Any vehicle attempting to cross a bridge was a launch site?

Just how many thousands of launch sites do you think there were?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More worthless eyewitness testimony from Mr. Giwer
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:14:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote [to Ken McVay]:
>>>> You posted the eyewitness testimony proving that engine exhaust and
>>>>cyanide are equally deadly.
>>
>>> Actually, Mr. Giwer is misrepresenting what he has read (as usual).
>>>In the case of the engine exhaust, the witness gave a time range and
>>>therefore was clearly estimating. And the witness seems to be lower than
>>>any other eyewitness estimate I’ve seen – even Holocaust denier Friedrich
>>>Berg uses thirty minutes as the standard for engine gassing.
>>
>> Then you are denying that old OBC himeself did not post that trut
>>truth.

> He posted a testimony from a witness. I do not deny that he posted
>it. What I deny is that the witness’s statement about time should be
>taken as exact, since it was given as a range. It was clearly an
>estimate, and as such should be regarded as subject to the normal range of
>error.

Your claim that an eyewitness can be lying is a first. But if
you accept the “error” you have also accepted the impossibility
of the 1000 per hour throughput. You can not have it both ways.

> Of course, only deniers and trolls pretend that one must either accept
>every word of a testimony as absolutely true, or reject every bit of it as
>unreliable. People are much better about remembering the simple fact of
>an event than the details about it. Many people, myself included, can be
>off by a factor of two or more when estimating physical size, distance,
>time, crowd size, etc.

You are the one with the 1000 per hour problem, not me.

>>> Furthermore, I do not recall seeing a claim that it took fifteen
>>>minutes for anyone to _die_ from cyanide.
>>
>> Then you have never read the Nizkor FAQ as I read and have posted
>>here in support of what I have stated.

> I did not write precisely enough: Mr. Giwer is technically right, the
>first experimental gassing did not use enough Zyklon for the area, and it
>did take longer.

I did not say it was right or wrong. I only pointed to the
bullshit carried on Nizkor that is gospel here.

But then, I expect Mr. Giwer knows it is certainly
>possible to adjust concentrations so that, e.g., someone will die more
>quickly from a 6% CO atmosphere than from a 10ppm cyanide atmosphere.

I did not konw that was possible. Please explaing the mechanism
for doing so. Please do so or admit you are lying.

>However, the normal expectation (were Mr. Giwer not a troll) is that Mr.
>Giwer’s claim should be read as referring to the _normal_ (i.e.,
>non-experimental) gassing operations. Please amend my statement to read
>this way, which is what I intended.

As you know everything you are making up as you go along is what
you are making up as you go along.

> With that amendment, I am still not aware of a testimony which clearly
>and unequivocally states that people survived over ten minutes after the
>dropping of Zyklon in a normal gassing operation.

That is only a statement that you have not read the posts here or
that you are willing to lie about them.

The closest thing to it
>is Boeck’s testimony which says “about ten minutes,” but even that is
>ambiguous as he does not give a clear starting point for this timing; the
>preceding sentence in his testimony cites not the pouring of the Zyklon
>but rather the SS man climbing to the roof. What amount of time elapsed
>between the climb and the pour is not stated.

You are clearly not following the NG close enough to be a
participant.

>>Mr. Giwer had previously, for
>>>example, blatantly misread a testimony about the amount of time that
>>>elapsed until the doors were _opened_ as being the amount of time to took
>>>the people to die.
>>
>> As you know, I have never posted one word about any door opening
>>time, AS YOU KNOW.

> Mr. Giwer did not author the words himself, true, but then I never
>said he had. All I said was that he misread those words as saying
>something about the length of time that screaming went on. And he most
>certainly did _post_ someone else’s words about a door opening time.
>(Technically, the quote said the _chamber_ was opened, but only a troll
>would claim that opening a gas chamber does not clearly imply the opening
>of some sort of door.)

You clearly do not read enough of this conference to be a
participant.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hey, Les: Hitler in the Bunker
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:25:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 4:29:12 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[To [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt)]

>>>In typical Giwerian fashion, he ignored Mr. Litt’s response,
>>>and posted:

>>># When you graduate and get into the real world and stop surviving
>>># on you parents, get back to me. In the mean time, get back to
>>># your books to help your GPA. You are going to need it in the
>>># real world.

>>>Anyone ever note that this has become Giwer’s more-or-less
>>>standard reply?

>>>That old inferiority complex is really kicking.

>> To whom? People with majors only a touch above basket weaving?

>STUPID TROLL ALERT: Giwerundian translation: People who study
>law know nothing about law. Those who study chemistry know nothing
>about chemistry. And only an ignorant, self-satisfied illogical
>troll who claims to have a 30 year old degree in physical sciences
>could possibly know anything about history.

Why you amen corner folks would believe in clearly demonstrated
liars is beyond me.

Even you should know that you have never heard an oath saying
that the “EVIDENCE I am about to give” is what a witness swears
to. Yet our residence dillitante has made the claim that is the
oath in Pennsylvania.

You know that the .sig of our resident chemist has been changed
so as not to implicate the university he claims assosiation with
AFTER his bone burning and HCN claims were dealt with. And of
course you know his assertion 750 calories from 1/10 gram of
organics has not been answered.

An honest person such as your self should realize you are being
deceived.

But of course you want to be decieved as it supports your
beliefs.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34697 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:38:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 4:39:32 AM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>## “Cool off”? How much?
>>
>>># Our resident chemist is going to post the equations on that real
>>># soon now.

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer missed this post. I leave out only what can be done
>by someone with a reasonable high school education:

I may have missed the equations but there are none here, in
addition to your bone burning and HCN lies.

>We know the evaporation rate of HCN is very fast.

We know nothing without a number readily available to any real
chemist.

Even DT has
>acknowleged this fact. His worry seems to be that since some
>of the HCN freezes that perhaps its rate of evaporation decreases
>substantially enough that one would have to add an unrealistically
>large amount of HCN to get enough to evaporate fast enough.

More bullshit. The freezing point can not be acheived by
evaporation.

>(Others have pointed out that the chambers were heated, that large
>amounts were used and that the Sonderkommando wore gas mask.)

>Notwithstanding the fact that even frozen HCN has a significant vapor
>pressure I wondered about how much of the HCN could freeze. It turns
>out that atleast 25% of the HCN added cannot possibly freeze and that
>is an underestimate because I assumed that all the heat required for
>vaporization came from liquid HCN initially at 0 C. I leave the
>calculation as an exercise for your edification (I can post it if
>anyone has doubts).

>The heat of vaporization of HCN is 6.03 kcal/mol (at 25 C) [I assume
> it’s roughly constant over the T range of interest.]
>The heat of fusion of HCN is 1.72 kcal/mol (at -13.2 C)
>Specific Heat of HCN 16.94 cal/molC (at 16.9 C) [I assume
> it’s roughly constant.]

Nothing here answers the mail but your fellow and equallly
ignorant holohuggers will claim that one of these numbers is
vapor pressure. You are clearly a liar.

>So HCN evaporates rapidly. 25% cannot freeze. Even the HCN that
>freezes has a significant vapor pressure. The gaseous HCN diffuses
>quickly enough that toxic concentrations are reached well before
>15 minutes. The Nazis could have used well in excess of what
>was necessary without practical problems. All of these facts
>underestimate the concentration because the chambers were heated.

>I can of course repost my diffusion post if necessary.

I suggest that you wait until you get into your second year of
chemistry that they refrane from further posting. But put back
your original sig of PhD candidate so I can call and verify it.

>>>## And, anyway, the vapor pressure is still
>>>## way above the lethal concentration, even at low temperatures.
>>
>>># Vapor pressure is not concentration. It is not clear what you
>>># are trying to say nor how you might know it.

>ERROR ALERT: vapor pressure is concentration in convenenient units.
>Now one should be careful to distinguish between equilibrium vapor
>pressure and vapor pressure.

Yes, PhD candidate, what is the vapor pressure and what are the
equations? Of course not. You never understood what I meant by
P Chem in the first place. You are clearly a fraud.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:39:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 4:36:31 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

>: The problem on the internet is that so many undergraduates
>: receive their first exposure to public exchanges and think their
>: high school routines are clever in an adult forum.

>I’m sorry Mr. Giwer, but I think you’ve stuck your foot in your mouth yet
>again. Are there any undergraduates here?

All the one who have said they are.

Read the fine newsgroup.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34699 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 01:44:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 8:41:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:

>> On 30 Apr 1996 02:35:37 GMT, [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>> >> Greg Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>> >>
>> >>By the way, Mr. Ferree, do you know a Homer G. Richey? He visited Dachau,
>> >too, after the way, and he wrote:
>> >
>> >>”I was, toward the end of World War II, an army captain on the staff of
>> >>Ambassador Robert Murphy, Political Adviser to Gen. Eisenhower. I was at
>> >>Dachau about a month after it has been liberated, either the end of May
>> >>or the beginning of June, 1945. There was no gas chamber there, nor did I
>> >>see one in the process of construction.”
>> >
>> >By the way, Mr. Raven, have you ever heard of Charles Larson, M.D.?
>> >He was the forensic pathologist sent to examine conditions at Dachau.
>> >He reported to Gen. Eisenhower that a “cyanide chamber” was used at
>> >Dachau, principally to dispose of invalids.
>>
>> This is not the same Charles Larson whom the revisionists claim did an
>> autopsy every fifteen minutes, 24 hours a day, and about whom they say
>> found no evidence of gassing, is it?

>Indeed it is.

>Mr. Raven, in article <[email protected]>,
>posted O’Keefe’s piece of denier propaganda: _The “Liberation of the
>Camps”_, where O’Keefe, referencing Dr. Larson, claimed that there:

>”…never was a case of poison gas uncovered [at Dachau]… Neither Dr.
>Larson nor any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any
>Holocaust historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas,
>whether Zyklon-B or any other variety.”

>Source:

>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/l/larson.charles.dr/liberation-of-camps

>How odd. According to Dr. Larson:

>”The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another.
>However, we did probe into such questions as, ‘What happened to those
>prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with
>them?’ Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however,
>they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where
>the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then
>ordered to strip and take a ‘shower.’ Outside the building, guards dropped
>in cyanide pellets. Then they’d blow the cyanide gas out and remove the
>bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened
>to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly
>and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo’s opinion, were incorrigibles.
>But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally
>examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities
>were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was
>imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or
>function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi
>called them ‘mercy killings’ because there was no hope of them getting
>well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination
>was the answer.” (_Crime Doctor_, p.61.)

>I do believe this is called “lying through one’s teeth.” The fact is that
>Dr. Larson _clearly_ intimates that prisoners in Dachau _were_ killed with
>cyanide gas. In fact, by his statement: “…in my opinion, only relatively
>few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this
>manner” it is implicit that Dr. Larson, in his capacity as a U.S. Army
>_forensic_ pathologist (the only in Europe, lest we forget), _determined_
>that prisoners had died from cyanide poisoning. (Note that it would be
>unsurprising that ³relatively few of the inmates² would have been found to
>have died from gassing as one could assume they would have been cremated
>fairly soon afterwards.)

I read only hearsay at best even if it was under oath.

Where do you see evidence?

Where are his pathology reports? They would be admissable as
evidence. Or particular interest will be how he determined
cyanide poisoning from ashes.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 12:06:57 PDT 1996
Article: 34700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:05:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 9:02:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: u.edu> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: >: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: >: [email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>: >: >: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom moran) writes…
>: >: >: >>[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>: >: >: >>
>: >: >: >> Terrible thing. Moran forgot to include one other little news
>: >: >: >>bit. Reported in the N.Y. Times, was an incident in a New Hampshire
>: >: >: >>High school that happened around Christmas time two years ago.
>: >: >: >> What happened was a group of kids were singing Christmas
>: >: >: >>carols in the hallway when a Jewish girl came up and ask them to stop.
>: >: >: >>The report didn’t say on what grounds the girl based her request, but
>: >: >: >>it was probably something she learned at home or ethnically nearby.
>: >: >: >>Whatever it was, the kids didn’t like it and roughed her up. The
>: >: >: >>report mentioned how many kids were enrolled in the school, citing
>: >: >: >>2500, of which 15 were Jewish.
>: >: >: >> No doubt the whole school was abuzz with the whole affair.
>: >: >: >> Talk about mass alienation and a quick lesson for the 2,485.

>: >: >: > I am curious, Tom. Seeing that you have – or will have – Jewish
>: >: >: > grandkids, how will you react when they come home from school having
>: >: >: > been roughed up? How will you react when they come home crying after
>: >: >: > Milt Kleim, Jr. tells them that he will make sure to get them during
>: >: >: > the next Holocaust? Just wondering how all this will effect you now
>: >: >: > that you have a Jewish family yourself?

>: >: >: Perhaps his grandchildren will be polite and not do such things?

>: >: >You think it’s polite for little kids to refrain from crying after being
>: >: >told they’re going to be gotten in the next Holocaust? Or after being
>: >: >roughed up? Weird.

>: >: You are so old you have forgotten childhood? Have you honestly
>: >: forgotten that any reason and no reason could result in the same
>: >: thing?

>: >Nope. But the fact is, Mr. “I’m going to try and change the subject”
>: >Giwer, this is no a case of being beat up for no reason. This was a
>: >question of whether Moran would condone his grandkids being beat up for
>: >being Jewish, and whether they would come home crying. You stated you
>: >didn’t think it would be ppolite for them to come home crying. You aew a
>: >very odd old man.

>: Changing the subject from what children do to each other to what?

>GIWER TROLL ALERT: I don’t have the need to explain this for a second
>time. Mr. GIwer is just trollign especially badly today.
>Everyone can just read the above passage, where the Giwer thinks it would
>be polite for children beat up by other kids (for their Judaism) to
>refrain from crying.

Without going back to check, I think I pointed out that children
would engage in such behavior for any reason or for no reason.
You do appear to have forgotten all about that. Perhaps when you
have children of your own you will be reminded.

>: >: Excuse me but I can not believe your sincerity in this matter.

>: >Tough. YOu are still a very odd old man.

>: What would age matter?

>Senility, old man. Senility.

50? You must be very, very young to consider that old.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 15:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 34744 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!news.aimnet.com!viper.inow.com!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews subvert militias
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:19:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected] <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 4:18:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) said:

>>>> I am ready to file the complaint. Are you and your company and your job
>>>>ready to answer for it?

>>>This is starting to get silly. I have never called you in my life, I have
>>>never heard of Internet Direct, and I can tell you that you don’t have to
>>>worry about whether I am ready to answer *your* “complaint”. You should
>be
>>>worrying about the complaint I will be filing.

>> That is not what you posted in this conference. And I have
>>nearly the same words from you by email.

>Another lie. I have never e-mailed the Giwer-troll in my life.

>> You are very stupid.

>>>Now, as I said in another post, you will either withdraw this rubbish, or
>>>you will suffer the consequences.

>> I am quaking. Another sillly threat. Don’t you folks ever learn how
>>silly you look?

>Fine, Mr. Giwer. Just don’t say you weren’t warned.

A feeling of terror arises as though I were studying in the
Miskatonic library at midnight.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 17:45:35 PDT 1996
Article: 34772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:26:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 9:24:12 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> A little bit more than that hangs on the tax status. It is
>> unclear that any nation would grant tax exempt status to a site
>> involved with secular history. But if it is religious history
>> that makes Nizkor a religious site.

> I do not know Canadian tax law. You are dead wrong (as usual)
>about U.S. law. A 501(c)(3) entity — the tax exemption you are referring to, can
>be obtained by *any* literary or educational organization. The last twenty Wolrd
>Science Fiction Conventions have qualified as tax exempt organizations. Or do
>you consider them religious organizations?

It appears you are confusing non-profit with tax exempt with the
ability to issue receipts that lower one’s tax liability. Or
have I forgotten to deduct my world con memberships?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 19:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 34780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 23:50:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 6:53:23 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>in World War Two. But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>much for me. How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>this?

If you had been here the last time this truth came under scrutiny
a genuine, honest, for real chemist divert attention from it with
a misleading issue of whether or not bones burn.

If you lived in Florida you would find a similar phenomenon, when
the Spanish community gets a rumor started, either seeing the
Virgin Mary or the currently popular goatsucker that just swam
over from Puerto Rico.

It is an act of faith, a religious activity, to believe
everything that is said no matter how ridiculous, foolish, or
impossible.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 19:54:19 PDT 1996
Article: 34784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 02:14:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 9:17:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>: >[snip]

>: >> But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>: >> punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>: >> Auschwitz?

>: >GIWER STUPIDITY ALERT: If Giwer would stop acting like an unwashed pig and
>: >instead read what was posted, he would have realized that his question was
>: >already answered in my origional post! To whit:

>: >…Taylor continues (_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.54-55, p.54fn):

>: > The defendants would compromise “a large number of individuals and
>: > officials who were in authority in the government, in the military
>: > establishment, including the General Staff, and in the financial,
>: > industrial, and economic life of Germany who by all civilized standards
>: > are provable to be common criminals.” The charges against them would be:
>: >
>: > (a) Atrocities and offenses against persons or property constituting
>: > violations of International Law, including the laws, rules, and customs
>: > of land and naval warfare…..

>: > (b) Atrocities and offenses, including atrocities and persecutions on
>: > racial and religious grounds, committed since 1933. This is only to
>: > recognize the principles of criminal law as they are generally observed
>: > in civilized states. These principles have been assimilated as a part
>: > of the International Law at least since 1907….*

>: >…In regards to points (a) and (b) above, this was in reference to the
>: >Hague Convention (IV) Respecting the Law and Customs of War on Land
>: >(1907). Specifically, in regards to German violations of this treaty,
>: >concerning occupied territories, some of the applicable articles in the
>: >annex to the Covention (_The Laws of War_, ISBN 0-679-73712-X; pp.232-233)
>: >are:

>: > Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed
>: > into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all measures in his
>: > power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
>: > while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in forces in the
>: > country.

>: > Article 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied
>: > territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.

>: > Article 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and
>: > private property, as well as religious convictions and practice,
>: > must be respected.

>: > Article 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

>: > Article 50. No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be
>: > inflicted upon the population on accounts of the acts of individuals
>: > for which they cannot be regarded s jointly and severally responsible.

>: >Said articles of the Hague Convention, their violation by Germany, and the
>: >bringing of charges against Nazi officials and individuals, have nothing
>: >to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany was a signatory
>: >_prior_ to the violations that were committed.

>: >> Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
>: >> an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>: >> justice.

>: >REALITY CHECK: In truth Giwer has severe problems in dealing with reality.
>: >It also appears, given his lack of critical faculties, that he probably
>: >has problems dressing himself. Perhaps rooting around in pig-shit IS the
>: >best he can do!

>: You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
>: individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in
>: your response, idiot.

>Well, this has been said before, but THERE AREN’T ANY SPECIFIC PENALITIES
>PROCSCRIBED, IDIOT! There, I feel better now after using that
>unemotional “writing style.” Anyhow, this is true for International
>Criminal Law in general.

The is “prEscribed.” It is now good to see you agree the
penalties were created after the fact of the crimes.

>I would suggest Mr. GIwer needs to study to understand this — the
>sentence is not always set in the same statute that sets out the law. In
>fact, in internaitonal law, this is definitely the case. The Genocide
>OCnvention doesn’t set out the specific penalties. DOes the GIwer think
>that this therefore doesn’t criminalize Genocide?

I have maintained all along that they were punished under laws
that were written after the fact. So many have asserted they
were not.

>Part of the reason for this is the varying methods of enforcement of this
>kind of law — int’l tribunals, national courts, etc.
>Therefore, unless the Giwer can explain why the statute has to set out
>the specific sanctions, I think this has been repeated enough.

Now that we have agreement they were punished under ex post facto
laws we do not need to go any further.

>: >posted-e-mailed to Matt “I like pig-shit!” Giwer

>: Unsolicited email is a form of harrassment for which this
>: conference in famous. It is based upon the ancient history that
>: commercial providers charge by the email. Many children still
>: believe that is true.

>PLease don’t start this again, Mr. GIwer. I still have copies of the 3
>unsolicited e-mails you sent me, and you looked like enough of an idiot
>the first time I posted them.

I got almost 40 identical 11k ones today from the same person at
idirect.com. I would think you could tell the difference.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 21:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hodes.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 21:55:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 03 4:56:34 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>: >> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>: >>
>: >> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
>: >wrote:
>: >>
>: >>
>: >> >Again, in regards to the Kellog-Briand Pact, its violation by Germany, and
>: >> >the bringing of charges against Nazi officials for waging aggressive
>: >> >warfare, has little to do with the issue of ex post facto laws as Germany
>: >> >was a signatory _prior_ to the violations that were committed.
>: >>
>: >> This is where the discussion had progressed when it was dropped
>: >> and you folks forgot all about it.
>: >>
>: >> It was at this point I noted that laws carry a penalty section
>: >> also. I further noted there were no penalties to individuals for
>: >> violations of these treaties nor was there an enforcement
>: >> organization established by these treaties.

>: >REALITY CHECK: Giwer seems blissfully unawares that the issue of ex post
>: >facto laws derive from the maxim _Nulla poeans sine lege_, or “No
>: >punishment without law.” This, of course, is not the same thing as a law
>: >or, this particlar case, international treaty, without a specified
>: >punishment.

>: >To reiterate, as Giwer did not care to address the specifics of my
>: >previous post:

>: >To clarify the issue once more, it is worth noting that the issue of the
>: >”ex post facto problem” arose in the context of the waging of aggressive
>: >warfare. Telford Taylor discussed the “ex post facto problem” as follows
>: >(_The Anantomy of the Nuremburg Trials_, pp.50-51, p.51fn):

>: > In view of the criminal charges listed in the draft executive agreement,
>: > I had of course been hearing much discussion of the question of whether
>: > the launching of aggressive war could legitimately be treated as an
>: > international-law crime. I wrote:

>: This is an awfully long post and of course I have saved it for
>: reference.

>: But to bring you back to the subject, where are the laws and
>: punishments against what you holohuggers claim happened at
>: Auschwitz?

>Start with the Hague Regulations of 1907, Mr. Giwer. These laws were
>applied as customary norms at Nuremberg, _precisely_ because the IMT did
>not wish to apply laws in violation of nulla poeans sine lege. Can you
>tell me which part of the Hague Regulaitons were applied in a manner that
>was ex post facto?

>The only real issue of ex post facto at Nuremberg was one particular
>charge — waging of agressive war, which I think even you will agree was
>not factually based on the holocaust, but was based on Germnay’s
>invasions of numerous nations. The Holocaust was dealt with in the war
>crimes and Crimes Against Humanity charges.

To bring you back to the subject, what were the punishments
against individuals prescribed by these agreements? Who was to
apply these penalties?

>: Now do not get me wrong. I have no problem with a speedy trial
>: an a slow execution. I do have a serious problem with a claim of
>: justice.

>: It is the hypocritic attempt to cloak victor’s justice with the
>: sanctimony of an OJ sytle trial that bothers me.

>”An OJ Style trial”? You mean with lawyers and judges and defendants
>having rights?

That’s the kind with a jury of one’s peers and an attorney
present for any questioning, that sort of thing.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 22:12:59 PDT 1996
Article: 34818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:03:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]om> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 3:02:53 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[edit]

>>>> Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.

>>>Actually, Mr. Giwer, my comment stands. The term “scholarship”
>>>is used broadly in university settings to describe the process
>>>of research in its entirety, from the conception of a research
>>>problem, through the collection of information (historical
>>>documents, experimentation, archaeological site survey or
>>>excavation, as just a couple of examples), the *analysis* of
>>>the resulting data, and its interpretation.

>>>And if you think archaeologists don’t debate, at times very
>>>heatedly, the significance of what they “look at” and its
>>>broader interpretative meaning, you’re merely blowing more
>>>hot air. I’d be happy to provide you with some references
>>>about “scholarly debates” in archaeology if you are interested.

>> Were you to compare the archaeolgist debates to the “the drawings
>>prove it true even though they don’t say it” about the morgues
>>you might not be able to stop laughing at yourself.

>> Were you to seriously look at the “if you don’t believe it you
>>are an anti-semitic neo-nazi” as one side of the “debate” you
>>would not be posting what you are posting.

>MAJOR PAUPACY ALERT!!! GIWERIAN EVASIVE MANOUEVRE (i.e., clumsy
>as all get out).

>It’s you I can’t stop laughing at. This is such a pitifully
>obvious effort to sidestep your misinformed, pedantry about
>scholarly research, something you clearly know zippo about,
>that I can scarcely keep myself on the chair. Not a smooth
>move, Mr. Giwer. Not a smooth move at all.

Do not forget, none of us are here for each other who will never
be changed. The last report was that there were 30,000
subscribers to this group. There are perhaps 50 regular
participants.

You need to post in light of the rest.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 22:13:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34820 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Rates, Burn Rates
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:39:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 3:42:10 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> Of course, no one claims that THAT many people died at Treblinka or
>> Auschwitz today, mainly because that would have been physically
>> impossible. Acceptable figures for the two camps today hover between
>> 500,000 and 1 Million.

>Er, no; the death toll for Treblinka is usually cited as 800,000 or so,
>and for Auschwitz, 1.3 to 1.5 million.

>> Although Yehuda Levin, a
>> prominent Holocaust historian, provoked some ire when he suggested a
>> downward revision in 1989.

>”Yehuda Levin”?

>Do you mean the article on Yehuda Bauer, New York Times, Nov. 1989?

>Did you say you’d been studying the Holocaust for thirty years?

>> The point is that it was back in the days when Treblinka and Auschwitz
>> were believed to have been 10 times as “efficient” as they were that all
>> of this “testimony” emerged about burning people three at a time,
>> completely consumed in 20 minutes, etc. etc. as a RESPONSE to skepticism
>> to show that indeed this many millions could have been killed here, and so
>> forth.
>>
>> Therefore, I would submit that the numerous postings arguing about how
>> many people could have been burned per hour, or gassed per hour, at
>> Auschwitz or other such camps are about 10 years behind the consensus
>> curve on these issues.

>Interesting theory, but, like most “revisionism,” it is not supported
>by the facts.

>The facts are that the stated capacities for the Auschwitz crematoria
>are listed quite explicitly, by the Nazis themselves, in a document
>which was captured after the war. It tells the theoretical capacities
>of each crematorium building per 24-hour period.

>Since the ovens are still there today, we can count the number of
>muffles, divide capacity by twenty-four hours, and make very good
>approximations of how many people were burned at once and how long each
>incineration took.

And assume they were all operating 24 hours per day 7 days a week
and assume that what takes 2 hours at 1200 degrees these days
occured in these magical ovens in 1/2 hour at 800 degrees in
those days and then explain the lack of coke as a black patch in
any of the aerial photos.

Nice try but no cigar.

>The fact that these figures coincide with the testimony provided after
>the war by the Sonderkommando and by the Nazis themselves — including
>the memoirs of Rudolf Hoess — is strong corroborating evidence of
>their accuracy.

>So I’m afraid I must reject your submission.

Of course all that we have here is “tell me a gassing story”
without evidence.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sat May 4 22:13:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony is unreliable
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:54:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Y. Edeiken wrote:

>>In other words laws that were not ex post facto. Case closed.

>No wonder people hate lawyers. One of the more frequently stated and
>legitimate criticisms of Nuremberg is that the charges were based on ex
>post facto laws. Can post a few quotes if you like, but they’ve been up
>here many times. Methinks you’re just doing lawyer weasel words — if you
>don’t state the full facts then the case is closed. This isn’t a trial.
>Of course, neither was Nuremberg. As one supreme court justice put it,
>the presiding judge, Jackson, was “off on his high grade lynching party,”
>which he allowed that he objected to not nearly as much as attempts to
>pass it off as an exercise of law.

That was never in question with this boy.

Exact phrasing is required else they declare victory.

And of course they never impose such requirements upon themselves
(holohuggers and the amen corner.)

They are all threatening legal action in absense of clean hands.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sun May 5 23:09:09 PDT 1996
Article: 34935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 22:35:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran <[email protected]> wrote:

># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
># The results were next to nothing.

>I guess that’s the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>never said?

>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>in Treblinka.

You still haven’t looked up the two trials of Hoess on
indictments brought by General Rudenko and discovered which one
he was acquitted of.

You folks won’t believe it if I tell you.

># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
># results being next to nothing.

>Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>by the chemists who did the tests.

The largest numbers posted were from Leuchter who you people will
not believe. The parts per billion were from the single data
point from a recent Polish report. However since it constitutes
only a single data point it is a useless number.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Sun May 5 23:09:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 04:41:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27793 alt.revisionism:34943 soc.culture.jewish:47809

[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: >: [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>:
>: >: >In article <[email protected]>,
>: >: >tom moran ([email protected]) whines:
>:
>: >: > Can a true statement be “anti-Semitic”?
>:
>: >: >Yes, it can.
>:
>: >: Enough said.
>:
>: >For those who might think Giwer has responded, I pose the following
>: >question to Mr. Giwer:
>:
>: >If Mr. Moran says “I think Jews are the scum of the earth” — is that
>: >both true and anti-Semitic?
>:
>: >Well, let’s see:
>:
>: >(1)It’s true — Li’l TOmmy does think Jews are the scum of the earth.
>: >That doesn’t make him accurate, but the statement is true.
>:
>: >(2)Is it anti-Semitic? Well, duh.
>:
>:
>: Your IF is a really shitty try.

>Is that why you haven’t refuted it, Mr. GIwer?
>You seem to think that by just calling it shitty, thta makes it so;
>unfortunately for you, Because! I! Say! So! means nothing.
>If you can refute it, go ahead.

How in the world could I refute YOUR hypothesis?

>: It has been stated that the truth can be anti-semitic.

>: If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>: anti-semitic as including the truth.

>Gee, Mr. GIwer, how do YOU define anti-Semitic?

Stupid.

>: Yes, it is truly an enemy situation where the speaker of the
>: truth must be attacked.

>Uh-huh. Refute the above. Or do you think when Mr. Moran starts in with
>”Hebrew Huggems,” and H*ber comes in with j*wsbriefs, that’s not
>anti-Semitic?

What is anti-semitic about those given all the self-proclaimed
Jewish holohuggers here and their “I’m not Jewish but …” amen
corner?

>: It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.
>:
>: It has been a matter of primitive tribalists engaging in their
>: warfare in an unfortunate example of such tribalism surviving
>: into the 20th century.

>Thank you Mr. Giwer; in the same post where you denounce others for
>pointing out anti-Semitism, you make an anti-Semitic statement.

How is that anti-semitic when it applies to so many other peoples
in the world?

>DOn’t get me wrong; you have every right under the First Amendment not to
>like Joooos,

You should read the 1st amendment some time.

and to consider them “primitive tribalists.” But at least be
>a man and be honest about your dislike of Joooos, otherwise known as
>”anti-Semitism.”

It is no less primitive than the same system of membership that
survives in Saudi for example, India in the caste system and in a
large part of Africa and still today among some of the remaining
Amerinds. That you would insist it is modern rather than
primitive is simply your failure to learn anthropology.

It is also your failure to admit that a tribal custom of
membership at least 3500 years old and PROUDLY preserved is in
fact primitive. By the assertions of the Jews themselves it is
at least 3500 years old. What word would you like in place of
primitive?

What is your problem with the truth being stated other than your
belief that the truth can be antisemitc? Your membership rules
are primitive. What conceivably is your problem with that? When
have you folks said otherwise?

And if you do not like tribalists, just what translation of the
“twelve tribes” would you like instead? What difference would
you have from any Amerind tribe save that you folks are
matrilineal rather than patrilineal? And the Iriquous
confederation was matrilineal for that matter and they are
considered civilized although their practices in warfare (POWs so
to speak) do not appear to bear that out completely.

So what is your point in all of this? Do you want to claim that
your 3500 year old practices have changed? That they are
superior? What?

>: One would hope civilization would catch up to these tribalists
>: and they would come into the modern world and learn to forgive
>: their real and imagined enemies. Instead they are enjoined to
>: learn to hate. And of course we have Nizkor as a religious site.

>Mr. Giwer, what we have is:

>(1)Your mass negative generalizations about Joooos;

I have not been the first to claim they follow customs greater
than 3500 years old.

>(2)Your odd conviction that Jooos should not hate their enemies; a
>standard you haven’t stated regarding any other group on the face of the
>Earth.

You have not been reading very carefully if you think that. Or
have you noticed me saying the North and South should still hate?
That was the greatest loss of life in any war the US has been
involved in. You would expect me to at least be saying that.

>and of course:

>(3)Your repeated false assertion that Nizkor is a religious site, long
>after it was pointed out that non-religious groups are also tax-exempt.
>See seciton 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

And you have helped be clarify my thoughts on the matter. Thank
you.

>That last statement by you is, of course, intellectual dishonesty:
>continuing to insist as true what you know to be false.

Rather it was the statement of the problem. We have a synagogue
being able to either transer or determine the tax status of an
independent organization.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Mon May 6 00:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34958 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 07:57:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4m <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: [email protected]> <[email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (william c anderson) wrote:
>:
>: >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>:
>: >: I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>: >: academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>: >: it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>: >: comedy of the absurd?
>:
>: >Because you apparently “did it” for twenty years without having the
>: >slightest idea of how “it” is done? I dunno, just a guess…
>:
>: How would a college kid like you know?

>The same way a guy with a Bachelor’s only, and 20 years’ separation from
>academia, would know about what academics are, and what scholarship is?

>The same way a guy with not a whit of training OR experience in law would
>insist on legal points which contradict every all known legal scholarship
>and judgments?

In case you missed it, I was referring to 30 years of real life
experience.

Come back when you have a significant fraction of same.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 11:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34988 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 02:00:59 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>My question:
>>>>>>>How many of them were alive in 1943? Why send them anywhere in the
>>>>>>>first place? Why put heros in ghettos?

>>>>>Giwers stupid non-answer:
>>>>>> What do those questions have to do with this being the official
>>>>>>Nazi policy. This is what was offered to me as proof of gassing.
>>>>>>It clearly documents something quite different from that. It is
>>>>>>the highest level documentation that has surfaced on the subject
>>>>>>of official Nazi policy.

>>>>>Answering questions on tests must have been hard for you, Mr. Giwer.

>>>> When studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be
>>>>asked a question on demographics which, given the lack of
>>>>censuses from the period, would be impossible to answer.

>>>Clue: Read(HaHa!) Sarah Gordon’s book on the final solution. Within
>>>that book you will find demographics. You will find that Jews were
>>>about 1% of the total population in Germany.

>> Instead of all of this crap why did not simply post the 1942 and
>>1943 census figures in support of your claim?

>I see. You can’t do any work yourself. You have to have others do it
>for you while you sit in the comfort of your cave with the empty
>book-shelves. Not only that but you changed your claim from “When
>studying official Nazi policy I would never expect to be asked a
>question on demographics which, given the lack of censuses from the
>period, would be impossible to answer.”

Rather I was pointing out the stupidity of the implication that
anyone would have such information but it appears you missed it.
An “annual” census? In context the question was in response to
my citation of the Wannsee Protocal about Theriesenstadt. And
the brilliantly conceived and executed response is a question
that can not be answered for lack of information.

> My claims were that there are population figures and demographics.
>Something you claimed there were not. If there were not demographics
>how would we now that Jews made up 1% of the population in 1933 the
>year your hero Hitler took power.

>We also now from Hilberg( _Destruction_ pp. 106) that by “taking the
>Old Riech and Austria as a whole, the percentage of Jews living in the
>cities with populations of more than 100,000 rose from 74.2 to 82.3 in
>1939. (We knoqw this from “Die Juden und juedischen Mischlinge”,
>*Wirtschaft und Statistik, XX, 86.) The census [NOTE THIS GIWER THE
>WORD CENSUS] of May 17. 1939, revealed a Jewish population of 330,892.

Note: NOT in the ten largest cities but total.

>More than two-thirds of the number lived in ten cities, as follows:
> Vienna……………………………..91,480
> Berlin……………………………….82,788
> Frankfurt…………………………. 14,461
> Breslau…………………………… 11,172
> Hamburg………………………… 10,131
> Cologne…………………………. 8,539
> Munich………………………….. 5,050
> Leipzig………………………….. 4,477
> Mannheim…………………….. 3,024
> Nuremburg……………………. 2,688
> ————–
> 233,810 ”

>Even the stupidist of people can see that this is quite a fall on
>population from 1933.

What would that have to do with 1942? If you want to compare it
to 1939 then it is not clear why the sum of only ten cities would
indicate to you that 1/3 are missing. A percentage increase has
no meaning to this discussion without absolute numbers.

This drop can be attributed to the immigration
>of some families forced out because their jobs were taken away or
>their businesses confiscated. Of course whatever money they had was
>taken away in special income taxes that applied to jews only. By 1939
>we have the starvation policies of the Nazis. Jews weren’t to qualify
>for most kinds of food.

You are saying there was food rationing in Germany in 1939? What
“kinds of food” were they not qualified for?

So with no jobs, no businesses, inadequate
>food stuffs and now forced to live in certain buildings or
>areas(Ghettos) they got to be blessed with disease. 1942 was the year
>of mass deportations. But there weren’t many left in Germany by that
>time. And the ages of the remaining Jews were older people.

>There is even a chart of Births and deaths of Jews in Old Reich that
>does not include Austria and Protektorat:

>Year Births Deaths Population end of Year
>———————————————————————————————————————
>1940 396 6,199 ca. 200,000
>1941 351 6,249 ca. 150,000
>1942 239 7,657 (after deportations) 51,327

>1940-42 986 20,105

>This can be seen in _Destruction_ on page 125. And the source is
>SS-Statistician Korherr to Himmler, March 27, 1943, NO-5194. The mass
>deportations started September 1941.

You have given a secondary source. It is unclear that the Nazis
would have conducted such damning censuses were they in fact
covering up everything else so well.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 11:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Krema Plans
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 01:47:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 355
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer continues to drive nails into his own coffin by
>> >offering bizarre excuses as to why the L.Kellers were “bomb shelters.” The
>> >latest is to assert that the Krema staff, a few hundred at most, needed
>> >two “bomb shelters” that cold hold 4,000 people total! Amazing.
>>
>> As you know, I have not claimed they were bomb shelters. I have
>> stated very clearly that they have construction features of bomb
>> shelters and has a roof that is clearly more expensive and
>> unnecessary for either a morgue or a gas chamber.

>REPEAT REALITY CHECK: Giwer continues to drive nails into his own coffin by
>offering bizarre excuses as to why the L.Kellers were “bomb shelters.”

You continue to repeat what I never said. I merely pointed to an
alternate use that would explain the design features where you
can point to no design features necessary to either a morgue or a
gas chamber.

The
>latest is to assert that the Krema staff, a few hundred at most, needed
>two “bomb shelters” that cold hold 4,000 people total! Amazing.

It would also be better if you would stop editting out things
that you can not respond to.

But of course should you wish to argue from size then of course
the size of the room should be proportional to the number of your
muffles unless you are holding they were deliberately designed
with a mismatched capacity by a factor of two.

I am still awaiting your post of the necessary reason that either
a morgue or a gas chamber would have a steel reinforced concrete
roof when a simple peaked roof would have been cheaper.

>[snip]

>> >REALITY CHECK: Giwer asserts the the L.Kellers had “construction features”
>> >that indicate it was a bomb shelter. What, pray tell, where these
>> >”construction features?”
>>
>> I have listed them. The roof, the partially underground
>> construction, bermed walls where above ground, air-tight door, a
>> dispersed ventilation system.

>REALITY CHECK: Obviously, Giwer is struggling with his rationalizations.
>Perhaps a little “help” is order? Do bomb shelter generally have large,
>flat, above ground roofs?

That is what bermed means. The walls do not extend above. As
long as the walls are protected from the blast it does not matter
if the roof is above or below ground unless it is many feet below
ground. They do certainly have steel reinforced concrete
conconstruction where possible as it is the closest thing to bomb
proof there is.

Now your question, what purpose does such a roof serve to either
a morgue or gas chamber?

Since you have put the roof in question and I have answered I
will expect you to answer.

Do bomb shelters usually have
>aeration/deaeration capacities sufficent to replace the air in them
>several times in a few minutes?

They certainly have large capacity air circulation systems
however I am unaware of any time estimate that is available on
this subject. Perhaps you could provide a citation? Where were
the blowers found, how were they identified, what was their rated
capacity in operation?

The above are your questions to answer.

Do bomb shelters have corspe chutes
>leading to the surface that are blocked off with wooden partitions?

Both sides have stipulated that these buildings started off as
morgues and that design changes were made. As for these wooden
partitions it is unclear how they could have survived in place
after enough explosive to bring down the roof was used. It is
also unclear why a larger and heavier door was removed from the
area but not equally incriminating evidence was left. Perhaps you
could provide additional reference to these partitions?

It is certainly unclear why an air tight metal door would be
required on one enterance when wooden door would have sufficed.

And of course your question, is the last. Why would a gas
chamber have an air tight metal door in one place and rely upon
wooden particitions in another?

Do
>bomb shelters have frieght elevators connecting them to furnace rooms were
>the incinerators are?

Again, already stipulated these started life as morgues.

Do bomb shelters have holes in their roofs _and_
>gas-tight doors (with glass peepholes)? In short: No. But the homicidal
>gas chambers of Kremas II and III did.

As one of the stories goes, those holes are where the four
support columns were. The torque in the demolishion could
possibly account for them. But then of course the air coming in
>from the ventilation system had to go out some where. For a
building that size four 9 inch holes would probably not have been
enough. And of course, yes, straight up as then a direct hit is
always a problem. Certainly it would avoid debris being blown in
as would a side vent in addition to avoiding becoming living
space for vermin.

>> Which explains the berming. We would need to know the soil
>> conditions related to construction to determine if there was a
>> reason for it not being completely underground.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer explains nothing but ignores much. In the ground
>photo of Krema II, as shown in _Air Photo Evidense_, we can see that at
>least portions L.Keller 2 were not bermed, as the walls of the L.Keller
>are plainly seen.

Only those that would be in the shadow due to the angle of the
sun. It would necessary to know the slope of the berming before
one could unequivocally say that what is seen is not a shadow.

Now your question is, what is the purpose of any berming for
either a morgue or a gas chamber? Remembering of course that
concrete is also air tight.

Furthermore, berming the walls has no effect on the roof
>of L.Keller 1 in the least. One 500 lb. would make short work of the
>L.Keller, with its vast flat roof, being above ground as it is. As for the
>soil conditions, I’m sure Giwer will have no problem figuring that one
>out. Nor the solution the Nazis used to overcome it. (If, that is, Giwer
>would stoop to actually eading something about their construction!)

As I have said it is quite agreed that a direct hit could take it
out. But then a few feet of earth would make little difference.

And your question is, of what value is a roof of this
construction to either a morgue or a gas chamber?

>[snip]

>> But, given the careful design details found by some researchers,
>> since the Krema itself was such a “juicy” target then, once hit
>> there was certainly no further need for a morgue or a gas
>> chamber. Hitting the Krema was a good as putting the operation
>> otu of business. Thus there is no explanation for this different
>> form of construction.

>REALITY CHECK: Giwer obviously does not understand why people store
>perishables in cellars.

After the Krema is gone, are you suggesting they were going to
store corpses in this bomb proof structure?

>[snip]

>> You need to keep in mind that those finding evidence of it being
>> a gas chamber are in the same position I am. They are trying to
>> develop evidence from these same design features as I am
>> discussing.

>PAUPACY ALERT: The evidence that the L.Keller 1s were gas chamber is not
>restricted to Giwer’s farsical and disingenous “evaluations” by any
>stretch of the imagination. (Except Giwers, obviously.) It, in contrast,
>includes such things as the forensic evidence showing cyanide traces in
>Krema II’s L.Keller 1; of the Nazi documentation that refers to L.Keller 1
>as a gas chamber; to the documentation (such as the order for “prussic
>acid” detectors” and the Zyklon B introduction columns) that indicates
>they where gas chambers; to design changes in L.Keller 1 and the Kremas
>(such as blocking off the corspe chutes, and installing a deaeration
>system and elevators); and of course, the testimony of Nazis and prisoners
>that the L.Kellers were indeed gas chambers and that large numbers of
>people were indeed murdered in them with Zyklon B.

The traces found were in the parts per billion range. Hardly
impressive. And certainly, as noted, it would have been
subjected to Zyklon-B more than once just to control the rats.
Not out of any respect for the dead but so the orderlies do not
have to deal with them.

And in fact, unless PBS’s Frontline got the information wrong
which is of course always possible, then the people working on
this are trying to identify these as the buildings people have
talked about, not the other way around.

It appears to me there is still a serious problem with none of
the stories address the actual physical layout of the buildings
in such manner as supports this being the building of interest.

And your questions are as above. I do expect answers rather than
the evasions you are planning to give.

>[snip]

>> >INGORANCE PAUPACY ALERT: The time frame was wrong? Hardly. The raid has
>> >been well-documented. If Giwer asserts that the September 13, 1944 raid on
>> >the IG Farben plant at Dwory did not happen on September 13, 1944, I most
>> >eagerly envite him to prove otherwise! It appears that Giwer, in his
>> >desperation, will spout the most absurd lies….
>>
>> The time frame of 13 September post dates the construction of
>> these morgues and thus would not bear upon any converted use.

>PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer unsuccessfully attempts to use sophistry to extract
>his ass from the crack his big mouth got it wedged into. Giwer, fails to
>remember that when Kremas II and III were _completed_ (in early 1943) the
>L.Kellers were operational gas chambers. They were “converted” only in
>that during the _construction_ process they were modified from morgues
>into gas chambers.

Then you are going to have to go further and establish some
relevance of your air raid story to these buildings. You have
not been clear in the least.

>[snip]

>> >MAJOR EVASION ALERT: Indeed it will. And when Giwer’s pet scam that that
>> >the L.Kellers were “bomb shelters” takes a “direct hit” I can only
>> >gleefully say “have a nice day” to Giwer! The simple fact is that why, if
>> >the L.Kellers were these enourmous “bomb shelters” capable of holding
>> >thousands of people, would there be civilain workers taking shelter in a
>> >BOMB SHELTER between the tracks on the rail spur in the camp? The reason
>> >is simle: the L.Kellers WERE NOT BOMB SHELTERS! The REAL BOMB SHELTERS at
>> >Birkenau were elsewhere. Like, in one unfortunate case, between the tracks
>> >on the rail spur in the camp.
>>
>> Where do you get thousands of people? Shoulder to shoulder
>> perhaps but that is not the normal design criteria but rather the
>> worst case that can happen.

>The gas chamber (L.Keller 1), by accounts, did have as many as 2,000
>people crammed into it. Certainly as many as 1,500. L.Keller 2 (the
>undressing room) was even larger and could have held more. However, as you
>seem to think that they were bomb shelters and not gas chambers,
>undressing rooms, or morgues; what estimates of the number of people do
>you think they could have held? Please provide documentation from other
>Nazi bomb shelters of the period for your conlusions.

If you intend to start playing the documentation game you will
have to lead off showing these features, particularly the roof,
as common to other morgues and gas chambers. After all it is
the gas chamber that is the assertion. I am merely pointing out
the similarity of design features. I have no declared them bomb
shelters. I still have an open mind on the matter.

>> And what you refuse to admit is that both of us are starting from
>> the same premise that the rooms were originally intended to be
>> morgues. You however are eliminating a morgue to gain a gas
>> chamber whereas I am only suggesting a secondary purpose for a
>> morgue.

>REALITY CHECK: And what Giwer refuses to acknowledge, in spite of the
>overwhelming evidence, is that the L.Keller 1 of both Kremas II and III
>were converted into gas chambers prior to the coletion of the Kremas.
>There origional intent was to be morgues because the mass gassings of the
>victims to be cremated in Kremas II and III were originally intended to
>take place in the bunkers. However, as the gassings in the bunkers was
>going to be shifted to the Kremas, the Kremas needed gas chambers. Ergo,
>K.Keller 1 of both Kremas II and III were ad hoc converted into gas
>chambers.

And again, from PBS’s Frontline, it is the search for deign
features to support the idea they were converted from morgues to
gas chambers that is under study. Agreeing I should have
recorded it, I think they even used the cliche “detective story”
in connection with the search for evidence.

Where I come from, starting with a conclusion and searching for
supporting information is also referring to torturing the
evidence until is confesses. Far from your presumption that it
has been concluded these were gas chambers it is still an open
quesiton until other possibilities have been considered.

Part of the answer may come in your explanation for the roof and
such other features should you decide not to avoid answering your
questions.

>> For the originally suggested morgue one would expect, had it been
>> completed in that manner, a standard peaked roof.

>> Yet we have as a result a building that shows features of a bomb shelter.

>REALITY CHECK: Why would the semi-buried L.Keller’s require peaked roofs
>if they could support the snow load? They wouldn’t. Do root cellars in the
>mid-west require peaked roofs? No.

There is nothing to require a peaked roof but you are the one who
needs explain why a gas chamber needs a more expensive type of
roof when simple wood would have done.

Do bomb shelters have holes in their
>roof (and introduction columns) to pour Zyklon B into? No.

You are the one introducing the pouring. They certainly do have
air exhausts and yes the roof is where you put them.

Do bomb
>shelters have aeration/deaeration systems capable of replacing the air in
>them several times in just a few minutes? No.

That is data you are going to have to provide before the time is
in evidence.

Do bomb shelters have
>elevators to bring the corpses to the furnace hall? No. Do bomb shelters
>have blocked off corpse chutes? No. Are bomb shelters designated
>”Vergasunkeller” (gassing cellar)? No. Do bomb shelters have HCN detectors
>in them? No.

>But the gas chambers of Kremas II and III did.

All of course I have answered and I will be looking forward to
your answers.

>> The proper thing for you to do next is to demonstrate that either a
>> morgue or a gas chamber has a need for a more expensive
>> reinforced concrete roof.

>REALITY CHECK: The “proper thing” in reality is for Giwer, as he is posing
>an alternative argument to the Null argument that accepts that the
>L.Keller 1s were homicidal gassing chambers, is to offer corroborative
>evidence, technical documentary, and testimony, that shows that they were
>indeed bomb shelters. All the while addressing the considerable evidence
>that shows them to be homicidal gas chambers.

>And, oh, let’s not forget the _real_ bomb shelter located in the rail
>spur, which would have been unnecessary if the L.Kellers were actually
>bomb shelters.

>Failure to do so are grounds for this silly idea that the L.Kellers were
>bomb shelters to be dismissed out of hand.

Only by true believers with closed minds who will refuse to even
attempt to support their position.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 14:11:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!dildog.lgc.com!news.sesqui.net!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alex Baron: A Sad Clown (Re: Dan Keren: anti-Semite)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 04:09:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 11:11:45 PM CDT 1996
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Laura Finsten <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[edit]

>> The “academic” claims of everyone here are certainly worth
>>dropping a quarter for verification. My experience in these
>>public exchanges started in 1980. My experience is also that the
>>grander the claim the less likely to be true.

>> Credentials are never to be taken as true as given. Were I to
>>dredge up old memories I could give a long list. But in this
>>case, PhD candidates are likely to be undergraduates. Department
>>members are likely the same. (A department member sig even
>>vanished when I mentioned that point.) Note the near complete
>>lack of self identified undergraduate participation any place on
>>the internet.

>> Note here we have identification without what one would basically
>>expect, a professorial attitude by those making the claims.
>>Clearly I have to ask of the lack of any academic attitude from
>>those claiming the credentials. One has to accept that
>>accredited scholars are responding with ridicule rather than
>>reciting facts or referring to established sources that are in
>>fact available through this medium.

>[edit]

>Pretty smooth prose, Mr. Giwer. Did you have someone translate
>from Giwerundian into English for you just this once?

When people are not playing the game of not being able to
understand it, considered juvenile and excessive such game
playing leading to banning on the private networks, it is always
as understandable as you say.

The problem on the internet is that so many undergraduates
receive their first exposure to public exchanges and think their
high school routines are clever in an adult forum.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 16:54:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47909 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.eecs.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27829 alt.revisionism:35044 soc.culture.jewish:47909

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

> You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.

>I responded:

> All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer’s
> skin! Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he
> resorts to these baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention
> from his own intellectual dishonesty.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) once again demnonstrates that his
>vaunted IQ is not up to the task of reading with comprehension:

> Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority?

>Not at all! Changing the subject to “belief in a hyphenated god”
>proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually inferior to Mike Stein whose
>post started the whole controversy.

> Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who
> are Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews?

>Of course not! But Mr. Giwer is aware that what I actually said is
>too damning to refute, so he puts words that he can refute into
>my mouth!

> It certainly appears that way.

>That is because Mr. Giwer has reading comprehension problems, but
>what else can be expected from someone who cannot fathom the meaning
>of simple words like “and” and “or!”

> But perhaps you can find a way out of that clear consequence
> of your assertion.

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer can find a way to salvage his claim to an
>astronomical IQ in the face of his inability to read a simple English
>sentence and understand what it means.

Mere geniuses such as yourself often have such problems.

>Mr. Giwer’s .sig read:

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>I responded:

> The truth is fragile and always needs protection from
> the Giwers of the world!

>To which, he replies:

> The truth is in fear of me.

>Like a true medievalist, Mr. Giwer turns the truth into a person.
>If the truth is truly in fear of Mr. Giwer it must be because of the
>violence he does to it.

You made it a solid object by designating it fragile.

> You view me as far more powerful than I really am.

>Wishful thinking!

But I am a danger to your truth. How can I be that powerful?

> In fact I am nothing…

>Mr. Giwer ought to quit while he is ahead!

> …but characters on your screen.

>Arranged in a random fashion that simulates English syntax, but with no
>actual intellectual content!

Again, you mere geniuses have that problem.

> But a superman like you needs protect your truth from me.

>Mr. Giwer views me as far more powerful than I really am. I am not a
>superman and I have never had a desire to be. Nor do I protect “my
>truth” from anyone. I do try to protect the established truth from
>the distortions and lies that Mr. Giwer promulgates.

Would you settle for the title, “Protector of the Truth”? It is
a more modern version than “Defender of the Faith.”

> If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
> what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
> of needing to defend it.

>Mr. Giwer demonstrates once again that someone who cannot read,
>cannot write intelligibly either!

>I have no clue what Mr. Giwer intended with this last barrage of
>meaningless verbiage, but I can say that lies and distortions can be
>seductive, especially if they play to deeply-ingrained prejudices in
>the audience. The only way to establish the truth in the face of
>lies like Mr. Giwer’s, is to repeat it and support it with facts at
>every opportunity.

You can not help being only a genius.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.eecs.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Giwer Admits He is a Loser!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 02:12:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 9:14:44 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27829 alt.revisionism:35044 soc.culture.jewish:47909

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:

> You lovers of a hyphenated god need to grow up.

>I responded:

> All this proves is that Mr. Stein is getting under Mr. Giwer’s
> skin! Whenever Mr. Giwer is outclassed intellectually he
> resorts to these baiting techniques, hoping to divert attention
> from his own intellectual dishonesty.

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) once again demnonstrates that his
>vaunted IQ is not up to the task of reading with comprehension:

> Belief in a hypnenated god proves intellectual superiority?

>Not at all! Changing the subject to “belief in a hyphenated god”
>proves that Mr. Giwer is intellectually inferior to Mike Stein whose
>post started the whole controversy.

> Are you really saying that all Jews who believe in a god, who
> are Jews by religion, are superior to all atheist Jews?

>Of course not! But Mr. Giwer is aware that what I actually said is
>too damning to refute, so he puts words that he can refute into
>my mouth!

> It certainly appears that way.

>That is because Mr. Giwer has reading comprehension problems, but
>what else can be expected from someone who cannot fathom the meaning
>of simple words like “and” and “or!”

> But perhaps you can find a way out of that clear consequence
> of your assertion.

>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer can find a way to salvage his claim to an
>astronomical IQ in the face of his inability to read a simple English
>sentence and understand what it means.

Mere geniuses such as yourself often have such problems.

>Mr. Giwer’s .sig read:

> What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>I responded:

> The truth is fragile and always needs protection from
> the Giwers of the world!

>To which, he replies:

> The truth is in fear of me.

>Like a true medievalist, Mr. Giwer turns the truth into a person.
>If the truth is truly in fear of Mr. Giwer it must be because of the
>violence he does to it.

You made it a solid object by designating it fragile.

> You view me as far more powerful than I really am.

>Wishful thinking!

But I am a danger to your truth. How can I be that powerful?

> In fact I am nothing…

>Mr. Giwer ought to quit while he is ahead!

> …but characters on your screen.

>Arranged in a random fashion that simulates English syntax, but with no
>actual intellectual content!

Again, you mere geniuses have that problem.

> But a superman like you needs protect your truth from me.

>Mr. Giwer views me as far more powerful than I really am. I am not a
>superman and I have never had a desire to be. Nor do I protect “my
>truth” from anyone. I do try to protect the established truth from
>the distortions and lies that Mr. Giwer promulgates.

Would you settle for the title, “Protector of the Truth”? It is
a more modern version than “Defender of the Faith.”

> If half what is said about me were true then the consequences of
> what I am saying would support your truth, saving you the effort
> of needing to defend it.

>Mr. Giwer demonstrates once again that someone who cannot read,
>cannot write intelligibly either!

>I have no clue what Mr. Giwer intended with this last barrage of
>meaningless verbiage, but I can say that lies and distortions can be
>seductive, especially if they play to deeply-ingrained prejudices in
>the audience. The only way to establish the truth in the face of
>lies like Mr. Giwer’s, is to repeat it and support it with facts at
>every opportunity.

You can not help being only a genius.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:50 PDT 1996
Article: 35048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.insnet.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer in Action: Three Lines, Three Lies (Re: Alex Baron: A Sa
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:30:11 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 3:28:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:

>[About the testimony of SS-men and survivors from the camps]

># Were all of it to be accepted on face value as a complete record
># one would have to accept that there was never a crossexamination

>Liar. There were crossexaminations.

I have never said there was not. I have never pointed out that
the crossexamination is never posted nor kept at Nizkor.

># and never a defense presented

>Liar. The SS-men did have legal defense. A pretty heavy team
>of lawyers in some trials.

As above, the defense is not posted here nor is it carried at
Nizkor.

># and never an acquittal.

>Liar. There were acquittals.

As above

># What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

>You stole this line from Horst Slepokura, right, who himself
>quoted someone else?

>Now tell me: what kind of a theory is it that is sponsored by
>liars such as yourself?

A challenge to what is presented is not a theory. You need to
learn some science.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35050 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:37:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 2:35:09 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected]avms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[To Daniel Mittleman]
>>
>>># But we know that your background is ZERO in science as are all
>>># the gang of six and yours.
>>
>>>You seem more drunk today than you usually are, Giwer. In such
>>>days, you make many spelling errors, you rant and rave like
>>>a deranged maniac, every second word in your articles is “shit”,
>>>or “fuck”, and your sentences are, how to say it, oddly
>>>structured.
>>
>>>Rich Green is but one person who has a much stronger scientific
>>>background than you. Yours conists of a B.Sc obtained 20 years
>>>ago, am I correct?
>>
>> Nearly 30 actually.
>>
>>># You are a lying little shit and you know it.
>>
>>>Shut your filthy trap, Giwer.
>>
>> Such a retort.

> Actually Matt, given the discussion that has taken place, no more of a
> retort is necessary. You have asserted you know what an undergraduate
> Physics major know – and maybe you do. But, though the ongoing
> discussion, it has become clear that you do not understand:

> 1. Research Methods as they are taught to first year gradute students,
> including:
> a. The concept of reliability (and threats to it)
> b. The concept of validity (and threats to it)
> c. How to do experiments outside of a physics lab setting
> d. Research methods outside of basic methods used for physics

> 2. The relationship of the physical sciences to the social sciences and
> how physical science methodolgies translate to the social sciences,
> including:
> a. How to apply concepts of reliability in the social sciences
> b. How to apply concepts of validity in the social sciences

> 3. Any idea at all how historiography works.

In what particular field might these be taught and how do you
know?

And why would you put something first year grad students are
taught up against 20+ years of practical and succesful
application of several of physical sciences.

I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
it. Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
comedy of the absurd?

> It has become clear that you deal with the entire world using the
> limited scope of knowledge you have without considering that there is a
> larger sphere of knowledge out there which may explain things in ways
> you might not understand.

> It has become clear that when anyone presents information based on
> paradigm, theories, constructs, or information outside of your own
> frame of knowledge you go into denial and contort the most fascinating
> schemes to try to make your own frame work.

All of the nonscientific fields have resulted in absolutely zero
progress. We are “failing to communicate” based upon the results
of the real sciences.

Newton was able to deflect claims of his greatness by saying that
he stood upon the shoulders of giants. No “scholar” can make
such a claim.

All of the non-science areas are no different than athletes. All
of their accomplishments are based upon their individual
abilities and no success can build upon them.

A scientist can teach other to be scientists. Generations of
them can raise us from the dark ages to space flight. Beowulf is
stull up there among the great works. Some still consider Plato
(the other guy, drawing a blank) the peak of philosophy or at
least that his ideas are still worth considering. Aristotle’s
science was discarded to begin progress in science. Cave
painting from the Ice Age are considered great works of art.

If you discard the idea of progress, you may have a point.

> It has become clear that when this fails (and it often does on this
> newsgroup) that you resort to changing the subject, and engaging in
> ridicule.

> Therefore, at this point “shut your filthy trap” is a perfectly
> reasonable response to you.

Get back to me when you have grown up.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick ’em, I’ll gas ’em
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:40:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 2:38:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
># [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## The question is “why, *in your opinion*, did the SS design
>## 5 huge crematoriums with such an enormous morgue space, all
>## for a ‘work camp'”?

># Sir, I do not know why.

>Why don’t you make a guess? Why did God bless you with “163 IQ
>points” you claim to own, if you can’t make a simple conjecture?

You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
do with guessing.

># Excuse me but this connection between the two is something you
># have just introduced out of whole cloth. We have clearly had the
># aerial photos of two of them. There is no clear manner in which
># a diagonal passagway between the two could exist

>The gas chamber was *underground*. The short corridor that led
>to it was also, therefore, *underground*. Hint: that’s why you
>don’t see it in the aerial photo.

The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “10,000” extermination camps – “documented”
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:54:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]pacificnet.net> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 3:56:59 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>> By the Goldhagen definition they are exactly the same as a
>>”dentention and execution” description of US prisons. I regret
>>that you folks would prefer to have English be otherwise but it
>>is not.

>I regret that you are unable to read. Please try to follow these
>statements:

>1) The Third Reich “camps” as defined by certain Holocaust researchers
> including D.J. Goldhagen were for detention and execution. This does
> not mean that every single camp included formal execution facilities,
> although my best take is that virtually all were homicidal to some
> degree or another.

>2) It would not be correct to say that the institutions of the Federal
> Prison System known in the relevant jargon as “camps” are for detention
> and execution, because *no* such camp conducts executions. These are
> minimum-security facilities. Minimum-security facilities do not
> conduct executions. Clear so far?

>3) Prisons in the United States are for detention and execution. This is
> true, even if the prisons equipped to conduct executions are a tiny
> minority, and even though executions are exceptional events as opposed
> to the routinely homicidal character of the Third Reich “camps”.

>Note that the meaning of the word “camp” in #1 is significantly different
>from that in #2.

>All clear now? I understand many community colleges offer courses in
>remedial English. Perhaps you could enroll.

Although I continue to hear complaints about the public education
system in the US it rare to see such obvious examples of it.

In all of your examples the use of the word OR solves all of the
confusion and is of course the correct usage. But here we are
with both you and Goldhagen being the product of a public school
education.

It is, if you do not mind, rather pathetic.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:26:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B – Unlikely Agent
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:04:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 4:03:35 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>

>[snip]

>> >PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever supporting
>> >documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to determine
>> >this? No? Then why do he make such a specious claim?
>>
>> I will be happy to read this supporting documentation you claim
>> exists when it is posted but what you have said does not support
>> any claim of scientific accuracy as a requirement for a patent.
>> You will also note that in previous posts several different
>> media, primarily silica gel, have been posted as the medium.

>REPEAT PAUPACY ALERT: Has Giwer seen the patent, with whatever supporting
>documentation was used to determine the vaporization rate, to determine
>this? No? Then why do he make such a specious claim?

When some university is dumb enough to give you a degree, get
back to me with it’s name.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 17:39:17 PDT 1996
Article: 27834 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word “anti-Semitic” (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:36:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 02 4:34:42 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27834 alt.revisionism:35063 soc.culture.jewish:47953

[email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>tom moran ([email protected]) whines:

> Can a true statement be “anti-Semitic”?

>Yes, it can.

Enough said.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Mon May 6 18:32:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Al Gentile Hoax
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 09:02:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 4:05:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>>
>> These are claims as a liberator. I’ve seen this stuff before. We
>> called the SW Center and they have no record of him. He supposed to be
>> in the Hall of the Righteous according to Giwer, but no one knows
>> where or has heard of him. He might be real, but what Giwer makes of
>> him is suspect in light of the evidence so far.
>>

>Since his troop, platoon, what have you (I knew the name of the outfit,
>got it verified and have long since lost it) was cited as a whole, I’m
>not surprised.

>I have seen what Matt has posted and those are definitely Al’s messages
>- but Al did have a tendency to, shall we say “extend the facts”.

>> I have that. It’s the claims that go with the name that are an issue.

>That Al said them, based on his own limited view and somewhat
>over-extended, is true.

>That doesn’t mean that Al was particularly honest – he wasn’t – just
>that thye satements were made.

But of course the issue here is that we have one more eyewitness.
And as all eyewittnes are equal his testimony must be
introduced.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Mon May 6 18:32:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!cyberus.ca!news.magmacom.com!news2.ottawa.istar.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!torn!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: keeping up to date
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:55:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Apr 29 11:54:20 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Alec Grynspan <[email protected]> wrote:

>!Rack Jite wrote:

>> How do you know I never complained to the police?

>I asked them – since you gave me permission to do so by your claims.

>> Which Police? Local, City, County, or as the threats came across state
>> lines, the guys in the black Helicopters?

>Well, there was that big to-do with the sheriff’s department – that
>never happened.

>But – basically – El Lago, Texas, since you would have had to start with
>them in order to get any larger agency to look at your case.

>You’re a fake, Davy-girl.

>> Did you and Alec contact all police agencies of all users you hate?

>I have never contacted the police department of anyone that I hate,
>Davy-girl. Don’t give yourself so much credit.
>
>> A little different around here than on FIDO where the three general
>> political debate areas were moderated by the NRA? 🙂

>Controv, Politics and Debate were not moderated by the NRA, Davy-girl.

>Just because they couldn’t stand your incessant whining and libels,
>don’t accuse them of political leanings that were’nt present.

>IOW – they didn’t bounce you because of politics. They just didn’t like
>your “smell”.

Ah, yes but just what the reason David Bloomberg gave? Strange
that he would get rid of such a great defender of Jews.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Tue May 7 05:10:04 PDT 1996
Article: 35104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The real holocaust and the holocaust of faith
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:13:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 8:16:29 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>Alexander Baron <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>>>>Hey Dan,

>>>>>>Chuckee is a great fan of yours, and a devout believer in the gassings. And
>>>>>>Jesus.

>>>>>> Heck, if you can believe that a man raised the dead, rose from the
>>>>>>dead himself, walked on the water, turned water into wine, duelled with the
>>>>>>Devil in the desert AND was born of a virgin, well Dan, mass gassings aren’t
>>>>>>that much of a leap of faith, are they?

>>>>>This is the Jesus of faith and not the historical Jesus, btw.

>>>> And there is the historical holocaust and the holocaust of faith.

>>>>The real holocaust is borne of truth and death and destruction of
>>>>millions of people. The holocaust of faith is borne by the many
>>>>more millions who were born after it who continue the true faith
>>>>based upon war propaganda

>>>These examples of War propaganda are?(fill in the blanks):

>>>> It is time that those who have given up their faith in their god
>>>>give up their faith in their holocaust.

>>>What of the Historical Holocaust? Isn’t that real? Where is there
>>>faith in reality?

>> Which historic holocaust? The work camps in the pre-antibiotic
>>era where the life span was shorter than the the seven year life
>>span in the post-antibiotic era of the gulags or the one where
>>gassing is required to achieve a lesser result?

>Well, you are a rock. The Historic holocaust consists of the
>documents, testimony, photographs, the sites of the murders, the
>bodies, and the enormous amount of other evidence used to put together
>what happened during 1933 to 1945 inside Germany and in German
>occupied countries. It has nothing to do with antibiotics.

The bodies? I thought they were all burned and the ashes put
into the disintegration chamber or beamed up to the Enterprise.
There are at least 2000 tons of bone ash in the 40 acre site of
Treblinka, 50 tons per acre, all no one can find a trace of it.

But then, given the life expectancy in the Gulags, it is unclear
why there was any need to gas anyone as one would expect
something quite close to the same number of deaths with or
without gassing. Given what is known about the Gulags and
presuming no gassing it is rather surprising to note there were
any survivors at all.

>>>People have faith that God exists or that Jesus was the Son of God.
>>>This is faith. Hope. I can’t seem to put together a “faith” for the
>>>holocaust. What is this faith?

>> This has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with
>>superstition.

>What superstition is that and what does it have to do with the
>holocaust. Is the stupidstition that Jews are an inferior race or that
>it is possible to build a superior race by killing off those who are
>deemed undesirable?

It is only the superstitious who, when confronted with clearly
contradictory testimony (even if they do not understand science)
can accept both as true at the same time.

Consider yourself for example. These camps were in operation for
at least four years. Some expert on the suject can correct me on
that matter if they wish but I think we are in fact talking on
the order of five or six years, 1939 to 1945. You have also
accepted without question the average life expentancy given by
Alexander S(? never can spell it) in the Gulag Archipelago (and
get that one wrong also.) You would also accept an even shorter
life expectancy pre antibiotics.

Yet when faced with something in the same ball park in both the
KZs and the Gulags you do not see the least problem with throwing
in millions of unnecessary gassings.

Any attempt to salvage the story in light of the Gulags points to
much better camp conditions for the majority of the time they
existed than were discovered upon their being liberated. And I
presume you can see what stories are in danger if that it true.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Tue May 7 05:10:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Krema Plans
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:55:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Apr 28 8:54:18 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> I am the only one I know of who has pointed out they bear more
>> resemblance to bomb shelters than morgues.

>SELF-STROKING ALERT: ROTFL! And this _means_ something? Besides the fact that
>Giwer’s gaga? Or that he craves attention so bad he will bestow kudos on
>himself!

This time your attempt at over-reaching must have strained
something serious.

>> To answer you the bottleneck would always be the door. The
>> larger the door the greater the total pressure on the door and
>> thus the smaller the better as on submarines. And on the other
>> hand, people wanting to get into them would be 1) drilled in the
>> process and 2) highly motivated to get into them.

>SUPER MAJOR REALITY CHECK: Notice that Giwer has just done a back-flip off
>off the deep end. Whom, exactly, is Giwer suggesting were these “drilled”
>and “highly motivated” people? The prisoners? Hardly “drilled” but I’m
>sure they would probably be highly motivated to hide in a bomb shelter if
>they were being bombed. (Who wouldn’t?) The problem is, of course, that
>they had an very tall fence, with guards in towers who shot to kill if you
>tried to leave the camp, between them and Giwer’s “bomb shelters.”

I would suggest those who were not on duty at the time of such an
air raid were the motivated ones. Certainly the folks operating
the Krema itself were motivated.

>Or perhaps he’s talking about the SS? Too bad the “bomb shelters” were
>secluded so far away from the rest of the camp! One might get bombed or
>something before they could get inside! Interesting too that the _entire_
>SS complement at Auschwitc complex usually averaged about 3,000. For ALL
>the camps. Isn’t it kind of odd to have FOUR “bomb shelters” that could
>hold about 8,000 people total located at Birkenau?

None of this contradicts clear bomb shelter construction features
that are needlessly expesive and certainly unnecessary for either
a morgue or a gas chamber.

>I guess when Auschwitz I was accidently bombed during the September 13,
>1944 raid on the IG Farben raid on Dwory y (several bombs hit the camp)
>those 15 SS men who were killed and the 28 others who were injured, not to
>mention the 23 prisoners killed and 65 who were critically wounded, just
>were SOL because Giwer’s fabulous “bomb shelters” were in Birkenau.

The time frame is wrong as you are aware.

>But wait! It gets better. Also during the September 13 raid several bombs
>were also accidently dropped on Birkenau. One hit the railroad embankment
>leading to the camp and the spur leading to Kremas II and III. Another
>landed _between_ the tracks on the spur and hit – guess what – A BOMB
>SHELTER! Killed 30 civilian workers too. (_Auschwitz and the Allies_,
>p.315.)

As I have previously noted, a direct hit can ruin your entire
day.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Tue May 7 05:10:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ex post facto at Nuremberg
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 01:26:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04 8:25:22 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken & Wendy Blouse) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…

>> You have failed to post the laws the prescribe the penalties to
>>individuals as I have noted many times. Please be specific in
>>your response, idiot.

> The idiot seems to be you. You posted that the laws were “ex post facto.” You have
>now received evidence that they were not. To be specific no penalties to indivuals are required to
>make the enforcement of a law valid. cf. Commonwealth v. Mochau 110 A.2d 788, 177 Pa.
>Super. 454 (1955) for an example of this. You have no training in law, legal theory, legal analysis,
>or legal research yet you insist on continually making an idiot of yourself by pretending otherwise.
>By the way, it took but (according to my seach program, 2 minutes 36 seconds to find and
>shepardize a case which proves you wrong; that included changing CDs. Next time try to make it
>*look* good.

You have provided evidence of the existance of international
agreements which was never in question. Apparently you can not
tell the difference.

You have continued to confuse evidence with testimony about
evidence.

But I can see why you are confused. Your state requires
witnesses to swear that the “evidence” they are about to give is
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth much as a
murder weapon is the truth. And of course in your state
falsifying evidence is called perjury. It is no wonder you are
confused.

But have no fear, the holohuggers will pretend they have never
taken an oath in court to defend you.

They will also pretend they do not know the difference between a
treaty and a law simply because you have stated they are the same
thing. And in so doing they will all be agreeing that, should
the US hold Canada has violated NAFTA, the US can send in the
troops and arrest the cabinet and jail them for such violations.
Not only the cabinet but every person who profitted from that
violation.

You live in a very strange state.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: !GIWER-SLIMEY BIGOT
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:20:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 2:23:58 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (!Rack Jite) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 May 1996 22:18:14 EDT, [email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote and
>is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

>!The provider responded that Giwer was about to be bounced from Combase.
>!At about the same time, John Morris, who had also complained to Giwer’s
>!provider, posted that Giwer was about to get bounced.

>I understand why I am mostly ignored in here, people do not want to add
>to the flames — though when it is they who get lied about and libeled
>they sure fall into it without much reflection about their own hypocrisy
>in the matter. 🙂

>I admit taking some preverted pleasure

No one has EVER said you were not perverted.

in watching this happen to McFee.
>It seems we all tend to judge the net flamers as EQUAL boneheads UNTIL
>we personally become the brunt of it, not realizing we have become what
>we claimed was a bonehead the day before. What Giwer and Grynspan have
>done to me is what Giwer is now doing to McFee.

You mean what was done was correct?

Perhaps he too, — 10
>years from now — will still be hearing the lies that he is a Marduk; a
>message forger, a criminal phone harasser who Giwer got fired, ect…
>On and on the lies will GO and GROW across nets and usegroups with the
>years, with others like Grynspan jumping in to help Giwer along with it.

>When I was first drawn in here because of Giwers crossposting, I
>suggested a way of dealing with him. Once again…

>First I want to be clear on the purpose of this newsgroup. It is indeed
>necessary for Nizkor and the many others here to refute the Revisionist
>and Deniers lies and corrupt facts. Its boring and hard work, but it has
>to be done, hats off to yall. I personally feel that the GIWER fight
>going on here over the past few months is not all that detremental to
>this Usegroup, and in fact, a bit of relief to the seriousness of the
>newsgroup charter.

>But there are special cases. By this time you know what Giwer is about
>and what his game is. He is an extreme right-wing, hate the goverment
>gungoon who hates Jews and wants to show off what he presumes is his
>intellectual superiority on matters of history and science, specifically
>chemistry. You want to get to him? Deny him that.

>Mr Morris today made his pronouncement to put Giwer in his Kill file.
>Good for him. Thats one option. The other is to not respond to any issue
>oriented message he posts, especially concerning chemistry. Either ignor
>those messages or respond with the WHYS of his revisionism and
>anti-Semitism rather than his word games and lies.

>Another point to help those not interested in reading the Giwergames.
>Change the subject to reflect that the message is about Giwer so other
>users can pass it by if they wish.

You obviously need to get rid or your radio and have that bad
tooth extracted.

> I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
> disregard, it’s the pride in it that passes me by.
> ———————————-
> Conservatively Incorrect – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
>FUN JPEG OF THE DAY (40k) – http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/3stfull.jpg
> Hate site of the week for 21 February 1996
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 35138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That’s Incredible!
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:26:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:29:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I’ll look in the Pattle et. al. paper about the color of the
>smoke from the diesel engine – that will be either tomorrow or
>on Monday.

What remote part of the world do you live in that you have never
seen it for yourself?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:27 PDT 1996
Article: 35144 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Giwer-troll strikes again
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:04:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:07:53 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>(Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>
>[more snip]
>>
>> And all of this when auto engine exhaust is just as deadly.

>[snip – text below is a requote from another post]

>>A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by
>>Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In the local lunatic asylum, a room
>>with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two
>>pipes were driven into the wall. A car was parked outside, and one of
>>the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of
>>the car to the pipe in the wall. The car engine was turned on and the
>>carbon monoxide began seeping into the room. After eight minutes, the
>>people in the room were still alive. A second car was connected to the
>>other pipe in the wall. The two cars were operated simultaneously, and
>>a few minutes later all those in the room were dead.
>>
>> [Note again the time frame is the same as Zyklon-B

> This claim has still not been supported. Mr. Giwer claims it is in
>the Auschwitz FAQ but he has not quoted the text which supports this
>claim, and I cannot seem to find it. As he has posted elsewhere, it is
>the responsibility of the one making the claim to support it.

Go to the story about the enterprising Fritsch and you will find
a time frame given, both a reasonable one or “gas ’em some more
the next day addendum.

> In addition, the testimony above is not completely clear as to whether
>there is an untimed additional interval between the conclusion of the
>eight minutes and the start of operation of the second car. I.e., does
>the “few minutes” start immediately after the end of the eight minutes of
>single-car operation? Or did it start with the ignition of the second
>car, even though it might have taken some unspecified amount of time to
>get the second car and hook it up? The text is somewhat ambiguous.

Can’t change the ambiguity. To me it indicates the author
doesn’t quite konw what he is describing, that he is responding
to a request for a story about gassing. That is why I subject
the words as best as possible physical laws which do not change.

>>and corroborates the eyewitness statement posted here.]

> As the Giwer-troll ought to know if he has the scientific knowledge he
>claims, concentration must be taken into account, and like must be
>compared to like.

At least I do not use what I know to deliberately deceive people.

In a small enough room, twelve minutes might indeed
>suffice for two autos to produce a sufficiently lethal atmosphere in the
>room. This says nothing about how long a normal concentration of Zyklon
>would have taken in the _same_ room. (One granule of Zyklon, of course,
>would have taken approximately forever.)

But as you know, although anything may happen in a sufficiently
small room, we are talking about Treblinka which another
eyewitness claims had a capacity of 1000 per hour and that then
entire process took one hour. So are left conclude a room or
rooms sufficiently large to deal with that throughput.

As for the concentration it can never become greater than that of
the exhaust itself thus we would have a basis for coming up with
that time if we have the volume for the building and for the
engine cylinders and assuming a reasonable RPM. In the ideal
world it would be a simple linear increase in the amount of
exhaust.

Or, on the other hand, we have the claim of the time from this
testimony which makes all of the time problems worse. Consider
even in suicide cases where the engine is inside the garage and
levels can get higher than the primary exhaust itself the
attempts are quite often unsucessful and from the news reports I
can remember they are often unsuccessful after hours. Of course
there are certainly many other factors involved.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 35145 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grand gas experiment
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:20:18 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 205
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:24:01 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> It is good to see another contradiction of one true believer by
>> another true believer. It is so rare.

>REALITY CHECK: It is also a figment of Giwer’s tortured imagination.

>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Daniel Keren)
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> # I’ve already say that this was wrong according to Hoess affidavit
>> >> # In that case, he claimed that he visited Treblinka and that
>> >> # a lot of Jews had been gased there before he decided to adopt a
>> >> # new way. And you know as me that this could have happen only
>> >> # after the summer of 1942 at least, or after July 1942.
>> >> # One could suggest that Hoess did an error with a date, but
>> >> # an error with a fictive visit?….
>> >>
>> >> Post the whole part of Hoess’ testimony, so we can see exactly
>> >> what he said. Possibly, he considered at some stage to shift
>> >> to using engine exhaust, and visited Treblinka to see if this
>> >> was a good idea or not. But, again, Treblinka began operating
>> >> only after mid-1942, and Zyklon-B was used to murder people
>> >> in Auschwitz since the end of 1941.
>>
>> >”I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer
>> >being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.
>>
>> >”Treblinka was built directly near the railroad tracks and had several
>> >chambers capable of holding hundreds of people. The JEws went straight
>> >into the gas chambers without undressing by way of a platform which was
>> >level with the railroad cars. And engine room equipped with various types
>> >of engines taken from large trucks and tanks had been built next to the
>> >gas chambers. These were started up and the exhaust gases were fed by
>> >pipes into the gas chambers, thereby killing the people inside. The
>> >process was continued for more than a half hour until eveything was silent
>> >inside the rooms. In an hour’s time, the gs chambers were opened and the
>> >bodies were taken out, undressed, and burned on frame made from mtal
>> >railroad tracks.
>>
>> Here we have a minor contradiction of another true truth
>> regarding the time to kill but it introduces a major problem with
>> another true truth of the 1000 per hour throughput rate for
>> gassing at this place.

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as he is want to do, “discombulates”
>Ho”ss’s memoirs to make a fallacious assertion. In September of 1942 ten
>larger new gas chambers were contructed to replace the older ones at
>Treblinka. The new gas chambers held a maximum of 2,300 people (six
>chambers) or 3,800 people (ten chambers) _simultaneously_, while the old
>ones held only 600 people. Clearly, even it took an hour to gas the
>victims, on evarage, that would have still been in excess of 1,000 people
>per hour.

Now you have gone and made it worse as the original post had the
buildings the size of 30 freight cars with only a 1000 per hour
capacity. Now we have ten buildings roughly the size of eleven
freight cars each and not a sign left of them or dozens of
engines and their buildings plus normal living buildings or all
the rest that is needed.

And yet this contradicts another true truth by an eyewitness
which put the throughput at on 1000 per hour. It appears that at
any time they could have gotten rid of all 3000 from that story
in one hour.

All of that in addition to the 2000 tons or so of bone ash that
is missing.

>Source:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas4

>> >”The fires were fed with wood, and the bodies were sprayed every once in a
>> >while with used oil. During my visit everyone who was gassed was dead. But
>> >I was told that performance of the engines was not always consistant, so
>> >that the exhaust gases were often not strong enough to kill everyone in
>> >the chambers. Many of them were only unconscious and had to be finished
>> >off by shooting them. I had heard the same story in Chelmno, and I was
>> >told by Eichmann that these problems had occurred in other places.
>>
>> And here we have the occasional use of a bullet being the sole
>> reason to switch to the much more hazardous HCN which was of
>> course commonly handled by orderlies and occasionally by the head
>> of political correctness at Auschwitz.

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, as he is want to do, “discombulates”
>Ho”ss’s memoirs regarding the decision to not choose shooting, which was
>decided in a meeting with Eichmann in the summer of 1941, with Ho”ss’s
>visit to Treblinka, which did not enter service as an exterminatin camp
>until the summer of 1942. This well after the decision to use Zyklon B as
>the homicidal agent at Auschwitz. (_Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_. p.
>1482.)

We still have a problem with the existance of this place as a
exterination camp in the first place. Now that we have so many
huge buildings and facilities that have vanished without a trace
including foundations and footings.

>In addition, Ho”ss and Eichmann decided against extermination by shooting
>at Auschwitz, as well as the use of engine exhaust, in their meeting
>apparently due to the experiences of the Einsatzgruppen, as they discussed
>killing with engine exhaust in referernce to the gas vans, and because
>Treblinka was not operating as an extermination camp at the time. (_Death
>Dealer_, p.28)

All you have here is a paragraph that avoids any mention of
anything that could be checked against physical law.

>> >”Another problem which arose in Chelmno was that the Jews sometimes broke
>> >the sides of the trucks and attempted to escape.
>>
>> >”Experiance has shown that the prussic acid called Cyclon B caused death
>> >with far greater speed and certainty, especially if the rooms were kept
>> >dry and airtight with the people packed closely together, and provided
>> >they were fitted with as large a number of intake vents as possible. So
>> >far as Auschwitz is concerned, I have never known or heard of a single
>> >person being found alive when the gas chambers were opened a half an hour
>> >after the gas had been poured in.*
>>
>> >Source: _Death Dealer: the memoirs of the SS kommandant at Auschwitz_;
>> >pp.42-43.
>>
>> This must have been a bitch of a problem at the modified morges.
>> One presumes the term Leichen in Leichenkeller refers to what
>> grew in the dampness. Of course that would have been simply a
>> generic name or perhaps one of the German language experts here
>> find a different meaning for leichen.

>MAJOR LINGUISTIC STUPIDITY ALERT: Giwer, yet again demonstrates his gross
>stupidity in regards to the German language. The word “Leichen” in German
>means “corpse” and not as Giwer, in his profound ignorance, evidently
>believes means “lichen,” as in the fungus/algae symbiote.

You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms.

>> It is also unclear what he is referring to with “large number of
>> intake vents” unless it is a reference to places where gas was
>> introduced. Yet we consistantly read of one or two person
>> introductions into rather small places.

>NUMERICAL/SPATIAL IGNORANCE ALERT: Giwer, eager to demonstrate his lack of
>critical thinking, blindly assumes that a “large number of intake vents”
>means the intake vents were large in _size_, and not as rational people
>would, a large enough _number_ of vents to ensure the rapid distribution
>of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B.

>>If anything is clear here it is that whatever Hoess knew about the
>>process, save for the airtight feature in common with bomb shelters,
>>was never incoporated into the design changes to the morgues.

>BEATING DEAD HORSE ALERT: Giwer, always willing to beat a dead horse,
>seeks any straw to grasp so as to try and rehabilitate his defunct
>rationalization that the L.Keller 1s were “bomb shelters.” In yet another
>stellar example of his amazing stupidity he makes the fallacious claim
>that Ho”ss, the commandant of Auschwitz, was not aware of the details of
>the gas chambers. In truth, Ho”ss, in his memoirs, was quite explicit in
>describing the details of the gassing process in the bunkers as well as in
>the Kremas. Furthermore, Ho”ss, by his own admission, personally witnessed
>countless gassings.

You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms.

>> Obviously they would have needed to have been kept dry and there
>> would need be many large place to introduce this gas. Instead we
>> find an underground room chosen as opposed to an above ground
>> “undressing room” and a maximum of four vents each 9 inches
>> square.

>IGNORANT PAUPACY ALERT: Giwer, aside from again eagerly repeating his lack
>of critical thinking, by dogmatically assuming that a “large number of
>intake vents” means the intake vents were large in _size_, fails yet again
>to comprehend why the L.Kellers where converted into gas chambers. (Hint:
>it had to do with the cold winter weather and the bunkers.) He also
>ignores that Kremas IV and V, which were constructed in the same
>time-frame as Kremas II and III _did_ have above-ground gas chambers, also
>with a “large number of intake vents”.

>Giwer, also fails to grasp, in the case of L.Keller 1, that four
>introduction columns, placed along the length of the gas chamber, and with
>their small “vent” holes, was more than sufficient to ensure the rabid
>spread of the HCN gas. The size of the vent holes, as well as the size of
>the removeable core of the introduction columns was more than adequate as
>the amount of Zyklon B poured into each introduction column was small.
>Typically 1.5 kg per column ,for a total of 6 kg, was dispensed for a
>gassing that used the entire L.Keller to murder 1,500 people in about 5 to
>10 minutes.

You refuse to answer my questions about these rooms because you
have no answers that even you can take seriously.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 35146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: – Madjanek.jpg (0/1) Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:45:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 7:48:37 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>>>>[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>>>[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>>>>>>>Photo of the Madjanek gas chamber (Madjanek.jpg), from _Concentration Camp
>>>>>>>Dachau_ (p.196) is attached to this post.

>>>>>> I see an old and poor quality picture of the inside of a room.
>>>>>>Would you care to annotate it and repost the features that made
>>>>>>it a gas chamber?

>>>>>If this is the one I think it is, the blue on the walls are the
>>>>>by-products of Zyklon-B use. That is is one piece of significance.

>>>> It is black and white so there is no evidence of any color. It
>>>>is not clear that the walls are made of sheet iron so it is
>>>>unclear what blue would have formed from.

>>>Really? Ooops. I recall it now. I have a color picture of that same
>>>room and the walls are blue. The caption on the pictures says what I
>>>said above. I believe the title of the book is _The World Must Know_.

>> Get your story straight at least. The picture shows nothing
>>indicative of any gassing. There was a very long holohugger post
>>here demonstrating quite clearly that blue could only form as the
>>third valence state of iron.

>Provide us with the citations of thses claims and quotes if yo have
>them. I know you won’t, but you will note that us fine holohuggers
>tend to post our evidence with our claims. You do not. I don’t own a
>scanner.

You really do have a problem with your newsfeed. It was back
when I stated reason for the TRUE EYEWITNESS description of
Zyklon B pellets as blue was because it was HCN. Then a
holohugger clearly proved the eyewitness was lying by posting
that the color only occurs when in combination with iron.

>> Now post your color picture and the evidence that the walls were
>>iron and at least you have the first leg to stand on for your
>>claim.

>Giwer I don’t even own a b/w scanner. You want to buy me a color and
>I’ll darn well post it. OR you can go to a book. The walls are not
>iron. This is obvious from the picture.

I know that.

>The door was metal

However the door appears to be wood due to the vertical markings
and there does appear to be a handle on the inside along with the
two rectangular objects on the left wall.

and it has
>no colorization except maybe around the edges. The walls are brick
>with plaster coating. There is more blue on one wall than on the
>other. This appears to be the wall closest to the pipe. The book is
>called _The World Must Know_ by Michael Berenbaum, Phd. The picture is
>on 138. So go to the library and look at the picture or go to the book
>store and look at the picture. You don’t even have to buy the book.

As HCN does not react with plaster to form a blue compound it is
difficult to see what looking at a difference picture would add
to this claim.

It is simply a room. Nothing more.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.jsums.edu!neonlights.uoregon.edu!platform.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Turner Diaries
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:14:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> < <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: [email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Andrew Mathis) wrote:
>:
>: >[email protected] (Milton Kleim) wrote:
>:
>: >>Rich Graves replies to me:
>:
>: >>>>I’ll be happy to send you the WHOLE fare for a ONE-WAY ticket to Israel.
>: >>
>: >>> I’ll gladly accept that. You have my address. Small, unmarked bills
>: >>> please, like the ones Bobby preferred.
>:
>: >>The offer was directed to Mathis only, I didn’t say WHEN I would deliver
>: >>on the offer, and I didn’t specify the means of transportation. 😉
>:
>: >You did, however, say that YOU, Milton Kleim Jr., would supply me with
>: >a ticket.
>:
>: >I have lawyers reading the statement, presently.
>:
>: >Or perhaps not.
>:
>: Is it not amazing that after a decade of children implying law
>: suits that there has been exactly one of them?

>Isn’t amazing that the Giwer has no sense of humor?

>:
>: I would think you would grow up or learn where in the the hell
>: you are posting.

>Oh, that’s right — humor isn’t allowed on USENET.

You now try to give dignity to childish threats by calling them
humor?

You must think I discovered public debate as recently as you
have.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 35148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ken McVay the worst sterotype of a Jew
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 07:15:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4mmti0$g38[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (David Reilley) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:

>>>The Nizkor Project (Canada) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>>> Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?
>>> Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction – permanently!)

>> Ah, yes. Jews never forget. At least you are one of the most
>>disgusting animals I have ever read in my life.

>McVay — now there’s a nice Jewish name!

You have never heard of the amen corner? As in the mayor of New
York, a good Italian Catholic, going to Jerusalem to ride a bus
on the same line that was bombed. And of course by implication,
just anyone was allowed to get on at any time carrying anything
while he was riding it. But of course is sold to the people back
home who can’t think.

As for names, I mentioned in one context that sometimes ones
discovers a person is Jewish by what they say. In the case I was
thinking about the person said “we were talking in temple” and
his name was Joe Nelson. Not a particularly Jewish name.

But as you certainly have read several people have lead off their
pro-gassing posts with “I am not Jewish but …” and that is the
amen corner.

—————————————————————
Live fast, love well, and have a glorious Website.

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
Commentary from the right side of the curve
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
http://www2.combase.com/~matt/ (my son)

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:31 PDT 1996
Article: 35149 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:17:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes…
>>Marty Kelley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>”We are now living in an era where the wall between news and
>>>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage
>>>in David Crosby’s septum.”
>>> –Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>>
>> Just for the record, you would do better to find a quote from
>>”Network” which was the first exposition of it and it certainly
>>started around the time Limbaugh was in diapers or high school at
>>best.

> Giwer is once again showing a lack of understanding of history. The
> era of news and entertainment commingling did not stanrt with _Network_
> in the late 70s. Commingling can be traced back AT LEAST as far as the
> madrigals of the middle ages. Editorial cartoons of the 18th and 19th
> centuries are other examples of commingling which predate _Network_.
> In the movies the topic was touched upon in _Citizen Kane_ among
> others. Modern commingling of TV News and entertainment can be traced
> back to Edward R. Murrow in the mid-fifties.

I was only suggesting a better source for quotable material than
this book written by a skinny little idiot.

> Giwer, I plead ignorant when the chemistry issues are discussed. Maybe
> you should consider pleading ignorant when history is discussed.

Maybe you should not take what I write as more than I write.

>> It never ceases to amaze me that skinny little idiots like
>>Franken think this is a new phenomenon or that people actually
>>think it is something new.

> I suspect that Franken knows he is not being original in his approach.
> He is simply tryig to commingle news and entertainment to make a buck.

He always has.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:32 PDT 1996
Article: 35150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 01:37:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>:
>: >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>: >> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>: >>
>: >> >> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>: >> >
>: >> >> Testimony can only be in support of physical evidence of which
>: >> >> there is none.
>: >>
>: >> > You continue to make this assertion. You have yet to explain why
>: >> >Maloney and Frank, two men convicted on testimony without physical
>: >evidence (in
>: >> >Frank’s case the prosecutors deliberately did not produce physical evidence
>: >that
>: >> >was in their posession) still languish in Graterford State Prison. Nor have you
>: >gotten
>: >> >off your fat duff to explain to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that this
>: >miscarriage of
>: >> >justice was perpetrated.
>: >>
>: >> Will you explain why testimony is not given a number and kept in
>: >> the property room?
>:
>: > This is silly. It is taken under oath both by the person testifying and the
>: >person making a record of it. I can conceive of no reason to keep it in a
>: >”propertry room.” I have never even heard of a Court maintaining a “property
>: >room” for evidence. In every court of which I am aware exhibits admitted into
>: >evidence are stored by the clerk (in Pennsylvania “prothonotary”) *with* the
>: >pleadings and the transcript of testimony (if printed). It is most certainly given a
>: >”number” for the simple reason that it might have to be found later.
>:
>: One more time. Even for those whose only knowledge of such
>: matters is the OJ trial. Evidence is something tangible,
>: something that is not subject to fallable memory or fallable
>: statement of that memory.

>Wrong, wrong, wrong. Evidence is that which tends to make more likely the
>conclusion that the crime was or was not committed. Testimony is among
>that evidence.

Now we have just had one exercise in the FRE based upon my
comment upon the touching faith in death beds confessions and
after a few go arounds, we find the FRE have no such touching
faith save in one exception that is similar to “Joe shot me.”

Are we going to have to go through this again? Prior testimony
can certainly be used as evidence in a present trial. That is
not in question. And certainly a deposition from a person who
can not appear at a trial can be used as evidence as can a
videotape in currently popular case.

But in the case we are talking about we have evidence and what is
said about the evidence.

>: If you have been paying attention to the Whitewater trial you
>: will note that previous statements of witnesses are being used to
>: impugn the present statements. It is the transcript of the
>: previous statements that were introduced into evidence not the
>: present testimony. The present testimony can be introduced, as a
>: transcript, into evidence in an appeal.

>Mr. GIwer, the use of transcripts in prior statements is done because that
>evidence is under oath, and therefore more reliable. Present statements
>can also be introduced, despite what you say. In fact, present testimony
>is more desirable than prior statements under oath, which are let in as an
>*exception* to the hearsay rule.

Since, save for some rare exceptions, the prior testimony can not
contain hearsay, how can the use of it be an exception to
hearsay? and not be mentioned in the FRE list of exceptions that
is?

>Where did you learn law, from the pimply typhus expert?
>:
>: Why do I have to continue to explain this to a professed
>: attorney? Does this attorney get an ego boost from the adulation
>: of those who know less than he does?
>:
>: Are you certain you are practicing or are you just too many years
>: away from being a trial attorney to remember these details?

>Or maybe you just got it all wrong, Matty-o.

Or maybe this attorney can not survive without being defended
with your expert legal opinion based upon years of practice?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick ’em, I’ll gas ’em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:04:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 174
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <4meohp$ <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: [email protected]>
>Distribution:

>Matt Giwer ([email protected]) wrote:
>: [email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>:
>: >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>: >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>:
>: >> [email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: >>
>: >> >Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>: >>
>: >> ># You are quite confused about IQ if you believe it has anything to
>: >> ># do with guessing.
>: >>
>: >> >Does this mean that your answer to the question “why did a ‘work
>: >> >camp’ have so many cremation furnaces and morgue space?” – is “I
>: >> >don’t know”?
>: >>
>: >> Not in the least. Such a capital investment would have had a
>: >> design criteria that would have given a maximum expected
>: >> throughput rate plus as much more as the designers could add to
>: >> it, usually an engineering double. If it went through two levels
>: >> of engineering a doubling at each level is common.
>:
>: >BULLSHIT ALERT: Here Giwer demonstrates the “if you don’t have the answer,
>: >then baffle them with bullshit” denier technique. Giwer’s “engineering
>: >double” is specious bullshit in the extreme.
>:
>: You refuse to answer any question about your implication that
>: either a morgue or a gas chamber needs a more expensive type of
>: roof.

>MAJOR DODGE ALERT: If one just looks up, there was no “question” by Mr.
>Giwer, there was a question TO Mr. Giwer, namely “Why did a work camp have
>so many cremation furnaces and morgue spaces?”

And now a clear lie that the questions have been editted out or
perhaps they were in another message. That does not change the
fact the person you are gratuitously defending refuses to answer
quesitons on this subject.

But if you agree that the life expectancy in a KZ was less that
then seven years in a Gulag you will hardly be surprised by this
capacity at the death rate would be about the same with or
without gassing.

Further, as I have already addressed the design would be for the
peak, not for the average. Typhus is often mentioned here but
unless there were drastically better living conditions than are
usually portrayed every winter would at least decimate the camp
>from pneumonia and flu epidemics. Unless sanitation were much
better than portrayed, regular cholera epidemics would be
expected.

Under conditions as portrayed in the camps, even the common cold
could have decimated the camps.

And then drawing people from so many different places in Europe
one would expect all of the locally common diseases would be
spread around to those who were not areas where they were common
much made polio a nationwide problem in the US due to assembling
the WW II armies. One would expect these diseases to include the
common ones we more or less ignore today but can be quite deadly
in adults.

Thus one would design for the waves of deaths, not for an annual
average death rate. I would have thought that to be quite clear.

>: But then you know nothing of engineering so why would you be
>: making such a statement?

>Gee, Mr. Giwer, I guess the same reason you keep posting bullsh*t about
>law, chemistry, etc.

The chemist has already publically admitted he deceived you with
his statements. We do not have such an admission from our
attorney as yet.

>: >Case in point is the morgue capacity at Auschwitz. The morgue capacity for
>: >the Kremas, prior to January of 1942 was roughly 1 per 300 prisoners.
>: >Compare this with Sachenhausen, which had a morgue capacity of 1 per 50
>: >prisoners. Then, on January 6, 1942, the planned morgue capacity
>: >(including backup incinerators) at Auschwitz was increased six-fold to
>: >bring it in line with the morgue capcacity of other concentratin camps by
>: >adding ten large corspe cellars. Yet, on Febraury 27, 1942, Kammler, after
>: >visiting Auschwitz, decided to removed six of the ten corspe cellars from
>: >the plan and moved the construction of the new Kremas to Birkenau. The end
>: >result was that when the Kremas were completed they had an enourmous
>: >incineration capacity and no proportional morgue capacity, was was
>: >indicative of their intended homicidal purpose. (_Anatomy_, p.144-145.)
>:
>: >So much for “engineering a doubling at each level.”
>:
>: This says not one word about the design process as you can
>: plainly read. If nothing else it clearly ignores maintence time,
>: as in cooling down to clean out the clinkers and ashes and the
>: like. This is simply some one as ignorant as you not knowing the
>: first thing about engineering.
>:
>: Obviously it presumes 100% availability (that is a technical term
>: and it is impossible to acheive.)
>:
>: >> This is nothing uncommon in engineering. Yet you are hanging one
>: >> of your hats on it.
>:
>: >BULLSHIT ALERT: Here Giwer again demonstrates the “if you don’t have the
>: >answer, then baffle them with bullshit” denier technique. Giwer’s “nothing
>: >uncommon in engineering” is anything BUT “common engineering.” One does
>: >not design cremation facilities who’s capacity could exceed the camp’s
>: >requirements by twenty times and call it a “common” engineering practice.
>:
>: Your ignorance of engineering does not give a basis for this
>: statement. In other words, knowing you are completely ignorant
>: of engineering, you are contradicting me who has 20 years
>: experience in engineering. Who but a holohugger would take you
>: seriously?
>:
>: You who refuses to answer any question asked that is.
>:
>Uh, el Giwero, are you saying it’s common engineering practice to build a
>crematory with 20 times the capacity of the expected rate? If so, what do
>you base this on?

As above, one designs for the peak not the average.

>: >> ># The undressing room is claimed to have been above ground and is
>: >> ># clearly shown to be so in the K4 picture.
>: >>
>: >> >God, have mercy on us.
>: >>
>: >> At least you did not hyphenate it.
>: >>
>: >> >Giwer, I’m talking about KREMAS II & III. Their gas chambers
>: >> >and undressing rooms were underground. I’m NOT talking about
>: >> >Krema IV, which was above ground level.
>: >>
>: >> I will deal this this new assertion later. However I note that
>: >> others have posted that the undressing room was above ground.
>: >> But hereinafter and so far as you are concerned, they were above
>: >> ground.
>:
>: >GIWER-PACKPEDALING ALERT: Giwer should be full aware by now that the
>: >Kremas under discussian are Kremas II and III, as he’s been explicity told
>: >enough times. And of course, no knowledgeable person has posted that the
>: >undressing room of Kremas II and III were above ground. Only Giwer, the
>: >unwashed pig, has. That he feigns suprise that the discussion is about
>: >Kremas II and III simply evidences his being the wretched little coward
>: >and liar he is.
>:
>: Dear schoolboy,
>:
>: Answer the questions you were asked and stop pretending to know
>: more than your betters.

>If any of his betters shows up and asks him a question, I’m sure he’ll
>answer it. In the meantime, this lovely little response in no way deals
>with the Krema II & III issue. BUt what the heck: after all
>”Leichen=Leichen,” right, Mr. Giwer?

I have had getting such a dictionary on my “to do” list for quite
some time. Should I get around to it I do not expect to be
surprised but rather to find the assertions on the order of those
of one of our resident chemists.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35157 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony and is value
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 08:15:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 07 3:18:36 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>
>> Of course a defendent always has the opportunity to waive a jury
>> and have it heard on the facts by the judge. However, being
>> denied the opportunity for a jury trial in the matter of a felony
>> would certainly be grounds for overturning the conviction.

> Assuming your statement is correct (and it is not in most countries) you
>would still have to show a demand for a jury trial. Please do so.

There are primitive countries but I await your posting of Western
European countries where this is not a true statement.

>> As for Europe, it will be interesting to see which countries you
>> name outside of the ex-Soviet Union that does not mandate that as
>> a basic right, something about it in the UN rights document also
>> as I remember.

> France does not. Germany does not. Italy does not. Spain does not.
>Belgium does not. Poland does not. Austria does not. Monaco does not.
>Sweden does not. Denmark does not. The Netherlands do not. Switzerland does
>not. Luxembourg does not. Hungary does not. Roumania does not. Greece
>does not. Finland does not. Norway does not. In none of those countries is there
>a mandated basic right to a jury trial in criminal matters.

It is interesting to see your assertion of so many countries
acting contrary to the UN Declaration of Rights on the matter.
One has to wonder why there were so many signatories to the
declaration.

> –YFE

Yes, kilfile challenged one.
——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:34 PDT 1996
Article: 35158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick ’em, I’ll gas ’em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:06:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 9:08:04 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Why did they so badly mismatch the capacity of the morgues and
>> the Kremas?

>It’s really very simple, Giwer: Because the Nazis built this enourmous
>cremation capacity, as they were intent on killing as many Jews as fast as
>they could and incinerating them as fast as they could.

That does not address the question of the great mismatch of
design capacity.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick ’em, I’ll gas ’em
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:27:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 9:30:50 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>The question is “why, *in your opinion*, did the SS design
>>>5 huge crematoriums with such an enormous morgue space, all
>>>for a ‘work camp'”?
>>
>> Sir, I do not know why. You people have stipulated they were
>>designed as morgues. Ask if of yourselves why you holohuggers
>>have been making that stipulation.

> It comes from the research of Robert Jan Van Pelt, an architect by
>training, who studied the progression of the design drawings, which had
>two underground rooms which were both labeled “morgue.” The earliest
>drawings had features consistent with a morgue and inconsistent with a gas
>chamber, such as a chute on top for sliding bodies down. This handy
>feature was eliminated from later designs, making it much more difficult
>and time-consuming to fill the apparent morgue with bodies. Yet the
>drawings persisted in calling both the large underground rooms morgues.
>Yet the letter from Bischoff to Kammler at the end of construction
>referred to _one_ morgue and one “Vergasungskeller.” Yet nobody has named
>any external structure which might be this “Vergasungskeller,” or any
>documents or design drawings of same.

> Evidently the Nazis themselves could not agree on what they were
>building. Why don’t you complain to them?

Perhaps you will explain the construction of the roof that is a
feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber? Will you explain
the features is has in common with a bomb shelter?

But your last sentence is quite interesting as I was informed
just a couple days ago that they were at some point labled
Vergasungskeller.

Perhaps this letter is referring to some other structure as it
has no apparent connection to this structure.

And then there was the go around on Gaswagen meaning
Vergasungswagen.

As noted elsewhere, when I get that German-English dictionary I
do not expect to be surprised by what I find.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35162 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:38:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 9:38:06 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Ehrlich606 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>>in World War Two. But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>>much for me. How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>>this?

> Holocaust deniers maintain that the tale grows in the telling, and I
>must admit they have a point. A witness says that fat was collected in
>buckets, or that a trench was dug, and before you know it, someone says
>there were “rivers” of fat.

They are also saying that human fat only burns the second time it
is exposed to fire, that it is not absorbed into the heat dried
dirt, and that the bottom of this huge pit was laid out by a
surveyor with such precision that there was in fact a downhill
slope.

Remember? We were over this before when our California chemist
deceived so many of his fellow holohuggers with his implication
that bones do not burn as he did not want to hear about the fat
be absorbed, wicked and burning as in any BBQ.

You do remember that example of how far even a professional [sic]
chemist will go to preserve an obviously absurd story?

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35163 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:42:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]> wrote:

>> By the way Mr Van Alstine, before to continue, I would like to know what
>> was exactly your reference about those burning pits were the germans were
>> suppose to burn bodies and collect fat, especially the one where it is
>say that the Germans dig up larger trench just for the sake of fat
>collection.
>> I’ll go to the library Sunday and Monday and I’d like to take a look at that
>> stuff, if it is not asking you too much.

>Mr. Beaulieu, you can find references from which fat was collected as fuel
>for the fire in the incineration pits in:

>_The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.

>_Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.463.

And you can read about ancient astronauts in “Chariots of the
Gods,” by Eric von Daniken.

You can find “eyewitnesses” to Victorian house flying through the
sky with people in the windows waving to people in the ground in
“Lo!” by Charles Fort.

So what is your point?

You know there was clear deception on this point the last time we
went over it.

——————-
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

What kind of truth is it that needs protection?

From [email protected] Thu May 9 07:13:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35164 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 02:51:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 06 9:55:05 PM CDT 1996
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[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>[email protected] (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Matt Giwer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>## “Cool off”? How much?
>>>>
>>>>># Our resident chemist is going to post the equations on that real
>>>>># soon now.
>>
>>>Perhaps, Mr. Giwer missed this post. I leave out only what can be done
>>>by someone with a reasonable high school education:
>>
>> I may have missed the equations but there are none here, in
>>addition to your bone burning and HCN lies.
>>
>>>We know the evaporation rate of HCN is very fast.
>>
>> We know nothing without a number readily available to any real
>>chemist.
>>
>>Even DT has
>>>acknowleged this fact. His worry seems to be that since some
>>>of the HCN freezes that perhaps its rate of evaporation decreases
>>>substantially enough that one would have to add an unrealistically
>>>large amount of HCN to get enough to evaporate fast enough.
>>
>> More bullshit. The