Documents

Giwer, debate 5-1994

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From: [email protected] (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government.
Begin>
— *** —
This measure would declare the state’s sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people”, and

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States
Constitution and no more; and

WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment
means that the federal government was created by the States
specifically to be an agent of the States; and

WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the
States; and

WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective
immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the United States Senate, each Senator and
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

®®юю R_9405 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940527 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1273)
To: All 10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: BEN DELISLE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0003096
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

[email protected]

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1274)
To: Jack Wilder 20 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: : SMOKING

On 05/17/94 JACK WILDER to MICHAEL PILON on : SMOKING

JW> -=> Quoting Michael Pilon to Bill Bauer <=-

JW> MP> Statute of limitation on suppressed data, sound fine to me.
JW> MP> Hmmm you mean swamp gas doesn’t cause warts. 😉

JW> Don’t you guys know that it is TOADS that cause warts.

JW> I can’t believe it, and it toadily amazes me that
JW> you guys don’t know that thirty years ago toads caused
JW> warts, and you got rid of them by letting a used dishrag
JW> sour in the dark for three days, and then you take it
JW> out, and cut three of the warts, and rub them with the
JW> rag three times, and then you bury the dishrag. You guys
JW> really didn’t know this??

They’re Canadians.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1285)
To: Mike Perry 12 May 94 18:08:10
Subject: An American Resolution

MP> MG> Clinton said it was a liberal media and that he was
MP> MG> not getting fair coverage from it. Do you disagree with
MP> MG> him? Of you did not hear him say that, I am sure.
MP> MG> Published in a Rolling Stone interview with him if I
MP> MG> remember right.

MP> There’s no doubt that Rolling Stone is liberal, but then
MP> again, RS is the exception, and I’m primarily talking about
MP> newspaper and tv, which are definitely more conservative.
MP> It figures that while the rest of us use examples such as
MP> network media, rush limbaugh and the Washington Post to
MP> prove our point, you pull out a rock-and-roll entertainment
MP> rag as proof of the “liberal media”. Too bad RS only has a
MP> fraction of a fraction of the circulation of our
MP> conservative examples.

_I_ pulled out proof? I cited Billie Jeff’s statement in a
Rolling Stone interview. Are you saying Billie Jeff is wrong?

MP> MG> Clinton
MP> MP>> is still managing to perservere. Maybe, just maybe, there
MP> MP>> are people out there who don’t have such unresolved,
MP> MP>> unjustified political bitterness clouding their judgement
MP> MP>> of what this country needs.
MP> MP>>
MP> MP>> There’s no major lobbyist group for Heath Care Reform –
MP> MP>> just people.

MP> MG> The “people” are carefully selected for the media or
MP> MG> at least they were until Limbaugh called Clinton on it and
MP> MG> he ordered it stopped.

MP> propoganda; no proof.

Here is the report of stopping the process. But we know
from one participant that it was still standard operating
procedure as recently as last week.

=====

Washington Times, 9 April 1994

Clinton gets tougher questions after charges of audience fixing

By Frank J. Murray

Minneapolis — Angry White House officials asked a
television station last night not to take questions for President
Clinton from people placed in a “town meeting” audience at
administration request.

“They can keep them in the audience but, out of an abundance
of caution, I’ve asked them not to have them ask questions so we
don’t have these accusations all over again,” Deputy
Communications Director Jeff Eller told reporters.

…

Mr. Eller expressed exasperation and embarrassment at
reports yesterday about his Thursday night disclosures that
dozens of television stations had included questioners in such
audiences on the basis of letters written to first lady Hillary
Rodham Clinton.

=====

MP> MG> There’s no major lobbyist group for banning
MP> MP>> UZIs – just people.

MP> MG> You have never heard of Handgun Control Incorporated?
MP> MG> Or do you think no one else has and that nonsense will
MP> MG> stand?

MP> I said “major”. There is nothing in the league as the NRA.
MP> I’ve never even heard of “Handgun Control Inc.” Its
MP> membership is probably as large as the local rotary
MP> club’s.

It claims six million members, double that of the NRA.
Where have you been?

MP> MG> I guess his job now
MP> MP>> is to simply support all the BS conservative policies that
MP> MP>> have screwed this country for the last two decades.

MP> MG> His job is to execute the laws of the land. You will
MP> MG> find that in the Constitution. You might read it some day
MP> MG> and realize he has ONLY the powers as president that are
MP> MG> enumerated there.

MP> Every single president who ever held office was directly
MP> responsible for pushing some sort of legislation through
MP> the government. I’m under the impression that the
MP> President is intregal both directly and indirectly in
MP> passing laws. Now all of a sudden you’re saying that’s not
MP> one of his responsibilities.

Your impression is only of what a president does. That has
nothing to do with the office to which he is elected. I have
cited the constitution as my source. If YOU can find something
in the Constitution giving him such an obligation I will be most
happy to read it.

MP> MP>> First and foremost he has been mandated by the people to
MP> MP>> lead this country

MP> MG> He was the least unpopular in a three way race.

MP> More word twisting. You can say it however you want, but a
MP> fact is a fact, no matter how you try to distort reality.
MP> Clinton would still win in an election today. There are
MP> more people who support him than don’t, unfortunately the
MP> people that don’t support him have huge mouths and closed
MP> minds (IMO) so they seem more substantial than they are in
MP> reality.

No word twisting at all. If you are interested in doing a
little reading on the subject there was a three way race in 1972
with Wallace as the third party candidate. In 1973 Scientific
American carried an article on the difference in results between
a two way and a three way selection process. My phrasing is
correct.

As for Clinton winning today a recent poll has him losing
against an unnamed Republican in ’96.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1288)
To: All 16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Snuck One Passed You
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994. The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights. Sounds reasonable does it not? Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
What does that mean really? For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people. Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women. There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states. Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small. And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
Of course it won’t go downhill overnight. At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs. There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote. I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing. The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
It happened. They got away with another one. What next?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1292)
To: Chris Baugh 13 May 94 18:53:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA

CB> MG> You should look into wholesale prices some day. You
CB> MG> will find the cost is in the distribution. Audio cassettes
CB> MG> made have a production cost on the order of five cents US
CB> MG> regardless of “grade” or “quality.”

CB> I’ve seen prices around $ 1.35 per unit for duplication,
CB> from a DAT master with proper tones and absolute-time
CB> reference sheet for track lengths, with Dolby B noise
CB> reduction and HX Pro headroom extension (both trademarks of
CB> Dolby Labs, San Fransisco CA) with a clear shell, on
CB> cassette imprint on both sides, chrome tape cut to custom
CB> length up to C-60, 4-color 4-panel J-card with imprinting
CB> on back, packaged in clear Norelco box with shrink wrap,
CB> FOB the plant, quantity 1,000. If you know of a way to cut
CB> the price to $0.05 per unit as described, I’d be delighted
CB> to pay you a reasonable finder’s fee, or you could simply
CB> advertise in any of a dozen audio industry publications and
CB> quickly become a millionaire while still dramatically
CB> undercutting the rest of the industry.
CB>
CB> You also omitted, for clarity I assume, the question of the
CB> production cost of the master tape and film sent to the
CB> duplication plant. Talented performers, quality equipment
CB> and competent technicians seldom offer their services for
CB> free.

If I sold them for five cents I would lose quite a bit of
money.

I was said production cost of the cassette. I intended that
to mean blank tape. Now if they are providing everything you
state for $1.35 do you think that is worth $1.30 markup?
Thinking about it, that information is quite old. It might be up
to ten cents now.

My source was an Amway pharaoh who was duplicating
motivational tapes for resale to other pharaohs (the only way to
make money in Amway.) He tracked back a source of cassettes to a
primary supplier in Mexico through some friend who gave him the
name of a buyer of their bulk tape.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1293)
To: Michael Pilon 13 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA

MP> MG> It appears you would not impeach killer Moosehead.

MP> Gad if you guys knew a bit mroe abotu Canada you would have
MP> a field day with some opf our ridiculous laws.

Which of course is why we work so hard to know so little.
If we knew more you would accuse us of being malicious.

For one it
MP> was not legal to sell beer outside the Province in which it
MP> was made. So Moosehead which is made in NEw Brunswick and
MP> exported all over the WOrld is almost unknown elsewhere in
MP> Canada. Until recently that is. Silly eh ? So even though I
MP> had heard of Moosehead from as far away as Australia I had
MP> never tired it, had my first one in Hawaii beleive it or
MP> not.

Anything is better than Primo.

MP> One thing about NAFTA is that is it opening up
MP> interprovincial trade… and you guys are worried about the
MP> Mexicans..if you only knew 😉

You guys should have signed a Canadian Free Trade Act years
ago or wouldn’t the sovereign approve?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1294)
To: Michael Pilon 13 May 94 19:07:10
Subject: BORN IN CANADA

MP> MG> You should look into wholesale prices some day. You will
MP> MG> find the cost is in the distribution. Audio cassettes made
MP> MG> have a production cost on the order of five cents US
MP> MG> regardless of “grade” or “quality.”
MP> MG>
MP> MG> Right now we are at the predicted point on many items. The
MP> MG> only bottleneck we have not broken is the cost of
MP> MG> distribution.

MP> Yes I have read a bit on this. It really is interesting. I
MP> buy a lot of my cosmetic and polymer plastic dental
MP> supplies from a company called DenMat in Santa Maria
MP> California. It is a licence to print money, two small 10 ml
MP> bottles of a polymer binding solution is $180 Canadian. I
MP> would be hard pressed to give it a value of any thing more
MP> than a few dollars. But the advertsing, sales people ( They
MP> are on an 800 line) packaging etc…. All add up but they
MP> still do well. But their products are very good so the cost
MP> is worth it to me. They also have great follow up and give
MP> good courses. In fact I went out there in Dec and really
MP> enjoyed their small town of 60,000. They even got me a bike
MP> to ride about on. Now that is service 😉

So you are getting a lot more for you money than the
chemical. The quality control on the stuff has to be very good
and even if it were perfect they would still have to carry
liability insurance. You never know when the stuff will be found
to cause ingrown toenails.

Given the essentials needed to use the product I presume you
agree the product would not be worth selling at cost.

(Is this the stuff that cures with UV?)

BTW: Don’t forget the thank your patients for underwriting
your bike usage.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1295)
To: All 15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

[paraphrased]

Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay’s buttocks
could be worth up to $500,000. They say he is sitting on a gold
mine.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1298)
To: Bill Bauer 11 May 94 23:16:10
Subject: Cinco de what?

BB> MG> I have a question. Just what in the hell is Cinco de Maio?
BB> MG>
BB> MG> I know it is the 5th of May and that it is the equivalent of
BB> MG> the 4th of July in Mexico. But in the Malvines war the Brits
BB> MG> sank the Argentine Cruiser Cinco de Maio. Is there any reason
BB> MG> this is some sort of Latin American holiday in addition to the
BB> MG> Mexico? Was Mexico the first and they all celebrate it?

BB> Matt, I have taken the liberty to cross post your message
BB> to our friends in MEXICAN_LINK. It will go from Metrocop to
BB> Family Tree and then on to Coyote SES in Tijuana, Mexico
BB> where I am sure that one or another of my acquaintances on
BB> that system will answer by return mail which should come in
BB> on Saturday nite during regular polling session with them.
BB> As soon as it returns with an answer, I will crosspost it
BB> back up here in Debate for you to see.

Much appreciated.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1299)
To: Chris Baugh 13 May 94 19:14:10
Subject: Cinco de what?

CB> On May 5 a few years ago, Mexico became independent of
CB> Spain. The date is still celebrated in Mexico. Ole!

That I am aware of and posted in the question. My problem
is that I had no problem with knowing the significance of the
date until the Falklands war when I found there was an Argentine
cruiser named Cinco de Maio. To me that indicates a larger
significance to the date. Is it that Mexico was the first and
the rest of Latin America has some significance to the date?

That is what I am asking.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1300)
To: Alan Macphail 13 May 94 19:17:10
Subject: Cinco de what?

AM> MG> sank the Argentine Cruiser Cinco de Maio. Is there any reason
AM> MG> this is some sort of Latin American holiday in addition to the

AM> I believe the name of the cruiser was the General Belgrano
AM> (sp), the Cinco de Maio was/is the Argentine carrier that
AM> hightailed it after its aircraft expended their only
AM> available air-launch Execets.

You are correct. Thank you

With British hunter-killer
AM> subs cruising around in the mood to shoot, it was probably
AM> a wise move. Al.

It was a very wise move. We don’t (didn’t) ever send our
carriers out alone. The main purpose of the ships and subs with
it is to stop subs from sinking it. The Brits have better sonar
than the Soviets.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1301)
To: Bill Bauer 13 May 94 19:21:10
Subject: Cinco de what?

BB> MG> I have a question. Just what in the hell is Cinco de Maio?
BB> MG> I know it is the 5th of May and that it is the equivalent of
BB> MG> the 4th of July in Mexico.
BB> …
BB> Wrong.

BB> Cinco de Mayo is not the equivalent to the 4th of July.
BB> For you, as US citizens, the 4th of July refers to
BB> Independence day. To us, as mexicans, Cinco de Mayo
BB> remembers a battle between the mexican and french armies
BB> (May 5, 1862) in Puebla, Mexico. It was a much needed
BB> victory after so many unfortunate wars against invading
BB> armies, among them those from the USA. Our Independence
BB> Day is September the 16th.

BB> Hasta luego.

BB> Rogelio Amaral

BB> ! Origin: COYOTE SES Tijuana, Mexico. (011-52-66) 86-5385
BB> (4:971/8) Matt, here is your information, right out of the
BB> horses mouth, so to speak. Hope this helps you understand
BB> what you wanted to know about Cinco de Mayo.

Much appreciated. In fact he offered to send the conference
itself free. I passed the offer to the sysop. I may be able to
be corrected more directly soon.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1302)
To: Elaine Gallegos 18 May 94 18:34:10
Subject: Civil Rights

EG> To get onto Cuba, exactly What is it that you have
EG> against Cuba? I have a lot of sympathy toward the Cubans.
EG> They got cut off from the wealth of Both superpowers.
EG> Nonetheless, they rallied, pulled together, and managed to
EG> survive with their dignity intact. Compare Cuba with
EG> Haiti.
EG>
EG> Yeah, Cuba has some major problems. Naturally, island
EG> nations would have to keep very strick control of their
EG> populations! Cuba is Trying to feed everyone. It’s a
EG> difficult life, but they are organized, and understand the
EG> spirit of co-operation. The government doesn’t seem to
EG> have totally alienated the people. They are the only
EG> nation to have humanely halted the spread of AIDS.

If they were really interested in feeding everyone they
would throw out communism. It works every time.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1303)
To: Mike Perry 15 May 94 22:09:10
Subject: Clinton crap

MP> MG> You must be reading the White House partisan handouts,
MP> MG> which is impeachable in itself to use public funds for
MP> MG> partisan promotion. But you forgot his admitted subversion
MP> MG> of the 4th amendment. Couple that with the Feinstein bill
MP> MG> and you can see his agenda. Totalitarians always have the
MP> MG> same agenda.

MP> I know. Your definition of “partisian” is anything that
MP> you disagree with that seems to be somewhat organized and
MP> not in your favor. *YAWN*
MP>
MP> As far as constitutional subversions, this is more
MP> propoganda; it’s all subjective,

He ordered Reno and Cisneros to find a away around the 4th
amendment. In what way is that subjective?

MP> MG> Actually you sound a bit in love with him. But do not
MP> MG> worry about the opposition to him. The truth will continue
MP> MG> to come out. I find it amusing to note today Clinton can
MP> MG> be called a liar (using the word, liar) on any of the
MP> MG> talking head shows and no one denies it.

MP> I’m not in love with him by any means. There are things he
MP> does which I do not necessarily approve, but at least I
MP> acknowledge his motivation is not based on self-interests
MP> (which history has demonstrated to be a principal coveted
MP> by conservatives & republicans).

Would please demonstrate what leads you to your knowledge of
his motivation?

You’re right. The truth
MP> will come out, unfortunately for you, I don’t think you’re
MP> going to be happy with it.

Since you know it already you can tell me.

MP> MP>> MG> I have a deal with Limbaugh. I do not speak for
MP> MP>> MG> him and he does not speak for me. Please take your
MP> MP>> MG> fantasies as to my sources to the HOLYSMOKE
MP> MP>> MG> conference.

MP> MP>> I never said you speak FOR him, you speak LIKE him.

MP> MG> You must listen to him regularly to know that. Or are
MP> MG> you one of those who claims to know what he is like without
MP> MG> listening? I presume the latter.

MP> I listen to him when I’m curious to find out what the
MP> current agenda for narrow-minded people is. I find him
MP> quite entertaining, but I worry about other less
MP> mentally-developed people who cannot separate his rhetoric
MP> from the reality which he distorts.

In other words you do not listen to him enough to have made
the comparison. You spoke from ignorance in an attempt to make a
point. You failed miserably.

MP> MP>> You have the same technique as he does – hideous commentary
MP> MP>> without substance. Inaccurate slanderous accusations based
MP> MP>> on flimsy, surgically-excised soundbytes.

MP> MG> This medium requires it. I note you do not respond
MP> MG> with any clarification.

MP> Ask and ye shall receive. I have no problems with backing
MP> up my position. I don’t have a habit of making grandiose
MP> subjective condemnations inasmuch as they are observations
MP> on the behavior of the so-called conservative movement,
MP> which to me has little to do with making this country
MP> better and everything to do with winning a stupid political
MP> game. That’s the difference between you and I. I’m
MP> interested in helping this country get back on its feet –
MP> and I don’t really care who does it as long as it gets
MP> done. I think you on the other hand, honestly (and
MP> foolishly) believe that one particular political group is
MP> going to save the world. My eyes are open wide enough to
MP> know that Clinton is really trying, and he is open-minded.
MP> As a result, I’m not going to stand idly by and let people
MP> like you trash his character for the purpose of
MP> counterproductive partisian politics. If you get away with
MP> this, then we’ll never know if we have a good leader or not
MP> – the level of available propoganda should not be a
MP> standard for determining who leads this country.

To repeat

MP> MG> This medium requires it. I note you do not respond
MP> MG> with any clarification.

=====

MP> MP>> PS – Your method of rationalizing would get you eaten alive
MP> MP>> on HOLYSMOKE if applied to on-topic concepts there.

MP> MG> You have a lot to learn.

MP> At least we agree on something. You’re right. I do have a
MP> lot to learn. That’s probably the difference between us.
MP> I’m willing to learn, and you simply know everything
MP> already.

I have been at it longer and I am smarter than you. What
would you expect from such an encounter?

MP> I wonder which of us has more wisdom? The open-minded
MP> person, or the closed-minded guy who knows everything?

I see no merit in those who propose that having one set of
fixed positions and opinions is by definition open mined.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1312)
To: Kate Secrest 18 May 94 18:44:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

KS> > In the Paula Jones case, suit was filed just a few days
KS> > short of the expiration of a three-year statute of
KS> > limitations. Well within the law and the bounds of normal
KS> > legal process. I only hope the trooper testifies
KS> > truthfully and the entire world sees proof that 43% of the
KS> > voters in Nov. ’92 were deceived by a flasher!

KS> Are you trying to say that her having been “flashed” by our
KS> current president was concealed from her for almost three
KS> years? That’s a little beyond incredible.

I think you can read better than that.

KS> > * QMPro 1.52 * Does an innocent man hire a TOP criminal lawyer?

KS> He sure does if he can afford it!!!

He is going to need it. Using the state troopers in this
matter is both a federal and a state crime. The boy is going to
jail if he can’t beat this one.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1313)
To: Linda Terrell 18 May 94 18:48:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

LT> Yes, indeed, this woman who said she was shaken, scared,
LT> outraged, stood still long enough to stare at Clinton’s
LT> wang so’s she could pick it out of a line up years later.

She did say that was something unique about it. Perhaps it
is tattooed or maybe he has tree balls. It does take balls to
even try what he did. Too bad George Carlin has sanitized his
act.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1314)
To: Linda Terrell 18 May 94 18:50:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

LT> Well, since she appeared at a News Conference last week
LT> with people from the religious right, and Operation
LT> Oppressyou and just right wingers, it doesn’t sound like
LT> it’s Dem funded. Though, the Dems could be funding a big
LT> act to make the Right look bad. . .

The reason she used them was that the mainstream media was
refusing to cover her story. A reporter for the Washington Post
was suspended for arguing over his stories being spiked. (I
posted the Washington Times report of it here.) The Clinton
supporters would give her coverage.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1315)
To: Jack Butler 18 May 94 18:56:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

JB> Honey, it’s that Grant Karpik again!

JB> GK> And especially since his story doesn’t match her story….

JB> Funny how *none* of the so-called witnesses can get
JB> the same story to come out of their collective mouths. So
JB> much for “proof”.

As there has not been testimony as yet I suggest it is a bit
early to make that claim. We do know that under oath Anita Hill
and her “witness” could not agree either. Perhaps the same thing
will happen. Until then we are talking about what makes it
through the press which, for the most part, spiked any coverage
of her story.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1316)
To: Jack Butler 18 May 94 19:03:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

JB> Hell, when people in the Clinton administration do
JB> this, you guys are the first to point out the fact.
JB> Convenient that you never mention it now that the target is
JB> getting legal help from the RNP.

Do you have a source for this?

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Read “Sleeping Your Way to the Top” by Hillary Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1317)
To: Linda Terrell 18 May 94 19:11:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

LT> WM> There ARE however, very strong reasons to believe that the
LT> WM> woman is telling the truth.

LT> And there are just as strong reasons to belive that she
LT> wants to make as much $$ out of this as possible.

Since you are one of the more rabid feminists around can you
explain why this does appear, after the reaction to Anita Hill,
to be a purely partisan reaction. NOW won’t support her because
Clinton is a liberal. You appear to have made the same decision.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1320)
To: Linda Terrell 19 May 94 15:26:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

LT> MG> You appear to have made the same decisio

LT> And you appear to have decided what my decision is. I
LT> am looking at both sides and from one side I see a
LT> righteously outraged woman who seems to have waited until
LT> the best possible time to make the most money off her
LT> experience.

The article in which her friends could identify her came out
in November. The Christmas season followed and I would presume a
story indicating she was a one-night-stand was not quite the best
present her husband and family could have been given.

She started trying to get some press coverage to tell her
story, to clear her name. The press would not give her coverage.

If you will accept she started some time in January, first
getting an attorney, making depositions then we know in March the
Wash Post reporter was suspended for the argument over his
stories being spiked. They were plural stories and they were
about Paula Jones.

She got on the god channel and had a hearing at some
Republican PAC. Early May the suit is filed.

What do you make of that timing other than it is about as
fast as it could have proceeded since the suit was not the first
intention.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1322)
To: Linda Terrell 20 May 94 13:42:10
Subject: Clinton Scandal

LT> MG> She got on the god channel and had a hearing at some
LT> MG> Republican PAC. Early May the suit is filed.

LT> Then give her her days in Court. That is how it’s
LT> supposed to work.

Clinton is trying to deny her that day in court because he
is now president. If he can deny it to her then it is back to
the media with the claim Clinton is afraid of going to court
because he will lose. Of course the trooper has no such defense.

LT> But don’t tell me to acept the sudden conversion of the
LT> Conservative right to Jones’ cause *just* because she was
LT> sexually harassed/threatened. The Conservative right did
LT> everything in its power to discredit Anita Hill; impeded
LT> legislation on sexual harassment and now is suddenly so
LT> ready to defend this poor, malighed woman.

I made no such claim. I gave a short recounting of what
happened and pointed that was the ONLY place she could get help
because the liberal press was censoring the story.

At the moment I see no particular support for her and I
would ask you to tell me what you have heard.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1324)
To: Phil Barnett 18 May 94 19:20:10
Subject: Clipper: Congress Hearin

PB> The problem is that they would outlaw any encryption
PB> technique they could not break.
PB>
PB> I have a dandy one I use at work that will die a quick
PB> death if the Clipper chip is made law.
PB>
PB> I came up with it when I was writing communications
PB> software to interface with the IRS, and they couldn’t break
PB> it. Since then, I have refined it. It doesn’t require any
PB> fancy encryption scheme, either.

I also have an encryption method that I believe to be
untouchable by brute force. I have been trying to sell it.

However, I have also stated that if other methods are
outlawed I will give full disclosure all over the networks.

Will you join me in that notification to the government?

They will make selling a product illegal but they can not
make it illegal to explain a concept and discuss implementation
which is all I intend to do.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1325)
To: Chris Baugh 11 May 94 23:22:10
Subject: close those Windows!

CB> MG> And since it keeps things like the print manager on line it
CB> MG> is constantly wasting time polling it while it does
CB> MG> nothing.

CB> Print Manager should not be in your load= or run= sections
CB> of win.ini nor in your Startup group. If an application
CB> puts Print Manager to the front when it start printing,
CB> minimize PM and switch back to your application. PM should
CB> disappear when all print jobs are done and not take ANY
CB> memory nor time away from other tasks when you aren’t
CB> printing.

I can only tell you what I have observed. I can get into
reading something doing nothing on the machine and suddenly the
disk is active. Other times the same process will show noticably
different response times. It is doing something on its own that
has nothing to do with me.

CB> MG> “Captain Piccard. We have disassembled the ship’s
CB> MG> computer down to the Windows level. No one on board is
CB> MG> qualified to go any further.”

CB> Microsoft must have designed the operating system for the
CB> Enterprise. Why else would we so often see that “the
CB> controls are not responding, sir”?

Precisely.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1326)
To: All 18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

United States Constitution

Article I

Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and
paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he
!!!!!

was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority
!!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time;
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.

=====

It is a fine line between “shall be” and “already be” an
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United
States. All attorneys are officers of the court and under their
own jurisdiction.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1327)
To: All 20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0036 – Controversy-F
———————————————————————–

Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski? Robert Bennett is
negotiating with Bill Clinton’s staff to reduce the charges
against Rostinkowski. Am I the only person who sees a problem
with this?

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* RM 1.3 01261 * The Right of the Individual to be an Individual.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1329)
To: All 13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission

I have been remiss over the last year or so.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1333)
To: All 18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start

Florida HRS Harassment Starts

In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved. The
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.
This was a he. His name was not obtained; he offered no
identification.

The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms.
Giwer’s aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the
property for not having a current tag. This is not illegal
within the City of Dunedin. Both her and her aunt live at the
house. No notification was ever delivered to the house.

The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was
responsible. The party was unaware Ms. Giwer’s mother is also an
owner of the property. When informed of this he suggested if he
looked into the mother’s file he would find a similar
notification. He was unable to account for the coincidence he
was involved in.

His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow
the vehicle. He was given no such agreement. He was informed
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own
decision and would be his responsibility.

Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared
incompetant aunt. I can only assume it was a fruitful
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1334)
To: All 10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust
at the idea of mercenaries known. Of course we can write our
elected representatives — we can also piss up a rope and
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our
postal system.

The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of
America in their regard.

A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in
Washington DC. If you are one of those who believes we learned
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more
direct approach is desirable.

First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong. I have
not looked into the postage nor its form of government — so that
it gets to the right person (I don’t think Chief of Police will
cut it.)

Second is the following. This is the highest ranking Hong
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting
such letters to the right person — implying she did not know the
right person either — but I trust her suggestion.

I am composing a letter that will request their police be
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in
combat. (Lay on the gory descriptions here. If anyone has any
good ones please post them.)

I will also include a reference that I am opposing the
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters
to Congress.

As reference for any letter you might be interested in
writing here is the citation of interest.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

A DECLARATION

By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

He is at this time, transporting large Armies of
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation,
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1340)
To: Grant Karpik 13 May 94 16:20:10
Subject: Health Care “Rights”

GK> ME> MP> In a recent post I also showed that admissions per 1000
GK> ME> MP> were higher here suggersting a better bang for the buck.

GK> ME> Or

GK> ME> 1. Canadians abuse the health care system; or

GK> ME> 2. Canadians get sick more often.

GK> ME> Statistics are difficult to interpret.

GK> MG> You know how cold it gets up there even though they
GK> MG> deny it ever snows. Obviously they get sick more often
GK> MG> from walking through the non-snow barefoot.

GK> It’s ok, the Red Cross sends us care packages of shoes
GK> every so often….

Finally. An honest Canadian.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1341)
To: Michael Pilon 14 May 94 22:20:10
Subject: HEALTH CARE “RIGHTS”

MP> MG> You know how cold it gets up there even though they deny it
MP> MG> ever snows. Obviously they get sick more often from
MP> MG> walking through the non-snow barefoot.

MP> Of course it snows, that’s our provincial flower !. Matt a
MP> bracing skate on the canal in a brisk -25c day would have
MP> you turning in your guns for Ottawa Lynx tickets 😉

I have better things to do in July.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1343)
To: All 13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!

*********** Original To: STEVEN GLADIN
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0106 – Civil Liber-F
———————————————————————–

SG> Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational
SG> fears of people that he does not know, that George should
SG> be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if
SG> his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.
SG> In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

Speaking of Florida’s infamous Baker Act it is ten days from
the following letter.

To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower
of another woman. We have on child together, that being our only
serious connection. There is NO exaggeration in anything that
follows. This letter was mailed on the date indicated. There
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479

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* RM 1.3 01261 * If you think health care is expensive now, wait til its free
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1344)
To: All 17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

$1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless
in the US.

In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless
in the US.

On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are
600,000 homeless in the US.

It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the
largest number of homeless possible.

3000000 | X
| X
2700000 | X
| X
2400000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
2100000 | X
| X
1800000 | X
| X
1500000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
1200000 | X
| X
900000 | X
| X
600000 |—————-X—————————————X-
| X X
300000 | X X
| X X
0 | X X X
|———————————————————-

S C C
n e i
i n s
d s n
e u e
r s r
o
1 B s
9 u
8 r 1
7 e 9

a 9
u 4

The swings are enormous. The only difference between
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different
asses. Of course the Cisneros’ ass hasn’t been burned yet.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * I do not have an ego. I am right.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1346)
To: All 16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is
false or misleading. I have cut it down to the relevant
essentials. Naomi Giwer is my first wife. As of this date I
have received no response to this second letter.

This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like
proceedings in the State of Florida. It is noted the same agency
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with
infected sores only two months ago.

I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the
finding public if there were any waves caused. To paraphrase, it
is in her best interests this be kept private. That implies
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they
would. It was a lovely threat.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Reconcile and Reconcile are clintonyms.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1347)
To: All 12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert

If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism. If
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please
join me there.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1354)
To: Lester Garrett 10 May 94 15:12:10
Subject: Moderator makes newsяяяяя

On 05/08/94 BOB HIRSCHFELD to AL THORLEY on Moderator makes news*****

BH> > What’s that saying about 15 minutes of fame?
BH> > Looks like Bob just got his. (Take that whichever way you like.) <G>
BH> > * Origin: Moderator – Consumer Advocate & Civil War (1:387/628)

BH> Hello, Al. I’ve had a great deal more than 15 minutes of
BH> fame, and infamy, in the past twenty years of litigative
BH> activities. Since you’ve been out of the Maricopa County
BH> court system for a number of years, you may or may not be
BH> aware of my having:
BH>
BH> * Stopped an Arizona policy against cross-ethnic adoption
BH> (Maria Child v. Cowan, CIV92-0403 PHX EHC, USDC AZ 1992);
BH>
BH> * Stopped the use of the Penile Plethysmograph and Ammonia
BH> Aversion Therapy on an 11 year old boy (ward of the State)
BH> (Natural Mother of Minor Child v. Superior Court, 1-CV-SA-
BH> 92-155, Ariz. Court of Appeals 1992);
BH>
BH> * Stopped the seizure of newsracks of a singles newspaper
BH> from Post Office public sidewalks on 1st Amendment grounds
BH> (Jacobsen v. U.S. Postal Service, 812 F.2d 1151 (9th Cir.
BH> 1987) )
BH>
BH> * Stopped the use of a Psychologist in forcing 5th
BH> Amendment-protected testimony, and stopped the punishment
BH> of a custody-litigant who was deprived of custody because
BH> he invoked his 5th Amendment rights (Montoya v. State, 173
BH> Ariz. 129, 840 P.2d 305, Ariz. Court of Appeals 1992)
BH>
BH> I am presently involved in several appellate actions in
BH> which I, as counsel, have been included in the improper
BH> sanctioning by two judges.
BH>
BH> In one case, in the absence of any Arizona case law to
BH> the contrary, and in light of long-term informally accepted
BH> practice in Arizona (consistent with permissive California
BH> statute and other non-Arizona case law), my client, a
BH> father, the respondent in a divorce, sold a
BH> community-property vehicle to come up with enough cash to
BH> pay another lawyer (he had borrowed funds to pay me), and
BH> to buy himself a cheaper vehicle. Judge Brian Hauser found
BH> that, despite very substantial legal argument that the
BH> payment of a lawyer constitututed one of the “necessities
BH> of life” covered by an express exception to the standard
BH> Preliminary Injunction against selling community property
BH> during pendency of divorce, my client’s sale was in
BH> contempt of that injunction, and fined both my client and
BH> myself. The Court of Appeals created a new precedent for
BH> Arizona in last week’s affirmance. My proper advice to my
BH> client was made before such precedent reversed existing
BH> local practice, in which respondent-wives have for decades
BH> gotten away with invocation of the same exception in
BH> selling property to pay their lawyers. The time for higher
BH> appeal has not yet run on that decision, and my client and
BH> I have not yet decided whether to go higher, in light of
BH> the AZ precedent being directly contrary to the statutory
BH> allowance of such sale in neighboring California.
BH>
BH> The more infamous current case, Marriage of Taliaferro,
BH> is still pending on appeal. During the pendency, Alfred
BH> Rogers, the appealed-from Judge, is engaging in a tactical,
BH> jurisdictionally defective and unconstitutional campaign to
BH> deter me and my client (Mr. Taliaferro) from seeking his
BH> appellate reversal. In a nutshell, Rogers was stripped of
BH> jurisdiction on 2/24/93 when I took on the Taliaferro
BH> divorce; I lawfully used a “Notice of Change of Judge”
BH> which Rogers wrongfully refused to honor. Rogers conducted,
BH> without jurisdiction, the remainder of the pretrial and
BH> trial proceedings, in which, several weeks before trial,
BH> the distraught Mr. Taliaferro took an overdose of his
BH> anti-depressant (Xanax) and his heart medication, was taken
BH> to the hospital to have his stomach pumped, was held for
BH> observation, and released as not being a danger to himself
BH> or others. Based on the rules of ethics and client
BH> confidentiality, I did not disclose what the court termed
BH> the “suicide attempt”, and when the wife found out
BH> independently, Judge Rogers sanctioned me personally in the
BH> inflated amount of $20,000. Rogers, believed to have only
BH> once in his two years on the Dom. Rel. bench ever awarded
BH> any form of custody to a father, slam dunked my client,
BH> awarding custody to the mother despite the court-appointed
BH> evaluator’s finding that she was unfit, so severely
BH> restricting visitation that Taliaferro has not seen his son
BH> since June 1993, and ordering 100% disabled father, whose
BH> sole income is $428/mo SSI, to pay $380.00 per month in
BH> child support. The appeal is fully briefed; ruling is
BH> pending (you know how long that can drag out).
BH>
BH> Meanwhile, Rogers attempted to hold a “Contempt” hearing
BH> against me for not paying the $20,000 Judgment during the
BH> pendency of the appeal. I refused to appear, because he had
BH> lost his jurisdiction, and further because the Arizona
BH> Constitution (Art. II, Sec. 18) prohibits
BH> contempt/incarceration from being used to collect a money
BH> judgment. (Perkins v. Superior Court, 100 Ariz. 186, 412
BH> P.2d 476 (1966); Masta v. Lurie, 22 Ariz. App 170, 525 P.2d
BH> 301 (1974); 17 C.J.S. Contempt sec. 13) As a result of
BH> Rogers’ unlawful tactics, I was unable to practice in the
BH> courthouse for a month while I was seeking emergency
BH> appellate relief, and I spent 30 hours in jail two days ago
BH> through yesterday. A Writ of Habeas Corpus and a Special
BH> Action are pending in the Arizona Supreme Court to stop
BH> Rogers’ unlawful strong-arm tactics, but it is the Appeal
BH> itself which I am confident will vindicate me. I am typing
BH> this from the NCMC BBS at my office, and am open for
BH> regular business starting tomorrow morning, Rogers having
BH> been checkmated by my posting of a large cash bond while
BH> the Appellate Procedures grind on. I suspect my eventual
BH> vindication on this “15 minutes in the sun” may do me and
BH> my representation of fathers more good than harm, in the
BH> long run. (Your former employer is, I believe, supportive
BH> of my position, Al.)
BH>
BH> My various detractors can gloat, but I am emerging a
BH> stronger force to be reckoned with, no worse for wear. I
BH> still hold the legal high ground 🙂
BH>
BH> — Moderator, LAW, DADS, CIVLIB, VFALSAC; co-Moderator
BH> RIGHTS

BH> — DB 1.51/004910
BH> * Origin: Nat’l.Congress for Men & Children (1:114/74)
^^^^^^

I do not have a node list but I don’t think 114 is any where
near Arizona.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Pray for Bill Clinton. Psalm 109, verse 8.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1357)
To: Roger Kluck 18 May 94 16:02:10
Subject: More Useless Commentary O

RK> MG> MP> Liberal: “AIDS is a serious problem we must address.”
RK> MG> MP> Conservative: “fag!” MP> Liberal: “The ‘war on drugs’
RK> MG> hasn’t worked.” MP> Conservative: “junkie!” MP> Liberal:
RK> MG> “We must reform health care.” MP> Conservative: “socialist!” MP>
RK> MG> Liberal: “We cannot continue to disregard our natural
RK> MG> resources.” MP> Conservative: “environmental wacko!” MP> Liberal:
RK> MG> “Women deserve as much respect and dignity as men.” MP>
RK> MG> Conservative: “femi-nazi!”

RK> MG> When you have the ability to something more clever than this please
RK> MG> post again.

RK> Matt , fess up you first impulse was to call him a name but
RK> you realized it wouldn’t be original and would be
RK> self-damning. How long did it take to come up with this
RK> great retort when your names weren’t available?

As Lester will tell you, I am not reluctant to call names.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Courts are where Justice is dispensed with. -Mark Twain
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1359)
To: All 10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper’s demotion captures attention of FBI

The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.

In an article in the April-May edition of the American
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited “over a
hundred” sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of
Arkansas. His remarks corroborated the accounts of other
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

Trooper Brown’s transfer was to have taken effect yesterday,
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

“He is upset, no question about that,” said his attorney,
Justin Thornton of Washington.

Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said: “I don’t think that is
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view.”

Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state. He
said yesterday he is “distressed, to be quite candid and
conservative. I am not happy at all.”

The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has
had with the FBI. As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

…

Once described by his commander as the “best investigator I
have,” Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.
“I haven’t been in uniform in nearly 15 years,” he said. “This
is incredible.”

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary’s Cattle

In this week’s New Republic, James Glassman examined first
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s trading record with Refco and
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating,
breaking margin calls.

“She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a
well-off businessman who … was in almost precisely the same
situation as Rodham Clinton,” Mr. Glassman reported.

During the time of Mrs. Clinton’s celebrated trading, Refco
“sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than
$100,000 — ‘even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I
was earning a six-figure income.’

“[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was
earning a lot less. Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:
‘How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'”

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* RM 1.3 01261 * “Beware the low profit.” Giwer 1:1
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1361)
To: Linda Terrell 11 May 94 16:20:10
Subject: News you may have missed

LT> MG> have,” Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes
LT> MG> investigator. “I haven’t been in uniform in nearly 15
LT> MG> years,” he said. “This is incredible.”

LT> How come no one has said word one about the breaking in
LT> to Rodham’s offices in South Florida? That Rodham who is
LT> ralated to Hillary who is running for Office there? Seems
LT> only selected files were taken from his office. . .last I
LT> read. No follow up.

How come no one has talked about the offices of The American
Spectator being broken into before they broke the first trooper
story? Nothing appeared to have been taken. Must have been just
a teenage prank.

LT> As for the Trooper being “reassigned” In the history of
LT> Politics, if you P.O *any* strong Politician, you *will*
LT> find yourself “reassigned” They lot of them should have
LT> expected such a move. Any Pol will get back at you if they
LT> can.

Fine with me. Let whoever did it admit it so criminal
charges and civil suits can be filed.

LT> It’s also possible some over-zealot “superior” demoted
LT> the man, thinking it the “proper” thing to do and forward
LT> his own career.

If people are not willing to take credit for their actions
then we presume they are attempting to avoid liability, period.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Bill Clinton patented the Opti-grab.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1362)
To: All 20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation.
in California found that when controlled for variables such as
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on
death row for killing blacks.

…

Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

…

When he considered the number of victims, whether the
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1363)
To: All 20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed

Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months
because of their potentially “embarassing” content.

Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp.
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual,
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they “violate their
legal obligation to run over the documents” under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said
yesterday.

“Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health
effects from passive smoking,” Jane G. Gravelle, senior
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found
“some uncertainties” in the EPA’s estimate of the numbers of
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

…

“I don’t want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect … an uncertain effect
… and it’s hard to detect small things,” Ms. Gravelle said in
an interview after the Senate hearing.

Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly
charged that the EPA’s findings were based on flawed science and
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after
Ms. Gravelle’s testimony.

…

But Ms. Gravelle said her research group’s conclusion that
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant
health risks from passive smoking “flows from an analysis of the
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology
of disease-causing agents.”

Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking
could have been as low as three per year.

…

Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking,
the congressional researcher noted.

Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the
effects of environmental smoke — using the amounts of a tobacco
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine — showed the effect
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day. Such
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker
deaths, she said.

This method “assumed a linear relationship between the
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure,” she said. But there is
“some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case
of lung cancer,” she said.

In that case, the “estimate would be only three people
rather than 600 people,” she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents,
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

{Enough said– mg}

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* RM 1.3 01261 * Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1364)
To: All 20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed

The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat’s first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Yassar Arafat has yet to name all
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the
Gaza and Jericho government.

The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei
Karta sect — the name means Guardians of the City — a group
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism
and the state of Israel.

…

Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem’s
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far
this time. Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

“He’s going to hurt bad,” said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

{An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch. His beard is
approximately 3 inches long. He is going to hurt. — mg}

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1365)
To: All 20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel’s smoking ban excludes few public places

A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco
shops and prisons.

…

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

…

He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the “most important
legislation in disease prevention in years” and cited the
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

Ironically, the subcommittee’s passage of the bill came one
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

{Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number. —
mg}

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1372)
To: All 19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality

Origins of Morality
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research. What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them. Morality is another.
We know we evolved from social animals. Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups. It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages. We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth. A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
A moral code is simply what permits social life. The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language. All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans. We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human. We do work to save them from it.
The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system. They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder. It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class. The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language. Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point? I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality. I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language. I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior. In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey. The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following. The use of force is inherently evil.
Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force. It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
Government has become out codification of our moral
standards. It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people. What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil. It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
There is the key concept I have been building toward. Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil. (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil. Honest thought does
not work that way.) We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance. Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the “good” any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for “his own
good.”
Notice that this is nothing new. But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments. We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified. We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case. Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good. The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1376)
To: All 19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise

AA> “Choosing to Die”
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42; Katel, Peter
AA> Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and
AA> regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS
AA> sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had
AA> another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own
AA> veins. Delgado is one of a group of young people known as
AA> frikis–“freaks” or “rockers”–who claim that they
AA> intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting
AA> themselves with tainted blood. Various sources have named
AA> more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they
AA> injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died. According
AA> to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.
AA> A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is
AA> possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV
AA> from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS
AA> among the group indicates that their explanation is a
AA> truthful one. “There is no other explanation for someone
AA> dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection,”
AA> he says. Cuba’s policy at the time was to quarantine
AA> anyone testing HIV-positive. For the frikis, life in an
AA> AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air
AA> conditioning, an absence of police–luxuries the average
AA> Cuban did not enjoy.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1379)
To: All 23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Reverse Vigilance
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance. The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance. Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability. Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges. In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press. Criticism is generally
limited to political lines. It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power. It is the prize of
the political process. And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies. “Everyone knows” the government is in control of every
thing. It is a simple belief to play upon.
The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail. There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out “it wasn’t this summer but it is
coming” sitting right there.
Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption? Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour. Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail? Haven’t you
always wondered why the most important mail is late? Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and “everyone knows” how many
employees they have.
Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns. Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill. This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better. All that would be needed
would be the working title.
The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars. The people already have little confidence
in the government. There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack. The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort. After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack. And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * The most banned user in the known universe.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1380)
To: Michael Pilon 14 May 94 22:22:10
Subject: SNOW? WHAT DAT?

MP> -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Michael Pilon <=-

MP> MP> Grant you should know better, Matt won’t understand MP>
MP> MP> Centimetres, he’s on that British Imperial system. 😉

MP> MG> I am on the American system where we redefined the kilogram
MP> MG> to match the pound — or something like that.

MP> Actually the metric system was introduced by the French as
MP> part of the revolution

Yes, which proved once again their skill in cooking.

but don’t tell Jack Butler , he is
MP> already a Francophobe. No you are still on the Imperical
MP> British system…..and no doubt regret 1776 😉

So do the British.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1381)
To: All 15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy! 01

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: SIMON JESTER
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/09/94 – 0002477
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Picked this up while cruising the “highway”, and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd. All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there’s a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do.

By Brock N. Meeks

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: “send
clipper.index”. – The Editors of WIRED]

If privacy isn’t already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it’s about to be. The panel members didn’t try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
“front load” the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream.

But these are tools the “good guys” said would be used only to catch the “bad
guys.” Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement’s proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX.

There’s just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, “Right now most
law enforcement personnel don’t have any idea what the NII is,” this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel.

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would “help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes.” Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney’s office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies.

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press.

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters’ deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot’s NAFTA-inspired “giant sucking sound.” This was the dull
“thump” of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender.

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as “proactive”
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
“have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now,” Walker said.

For today’s wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to “no big difference,” he said. Besides, “it
would save time and money.”

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. “Frankly, I don’t see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority],” he said. With a straight
face.

It’s Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn’t mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, “it only means we’ll catch fewer criminals,” he said.

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of “just putting the
bad guys in jail,” as James Settle, head of the FBI’s National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy.

“Because of law enforcement’s concerns (regarding digital technologies), we’re
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities,” Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency “is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network.”

Go ahead. Read it again.

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes.

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls “unprecedented”
is that – if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way – the design of the national telecommunications
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1386)
To: All 23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Twilight of Liberty
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world. Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing. There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution. Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals. Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause. Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government. Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
Should we lose it can it arise again? The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around. Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior. That is always a possibility. All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy. Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government. Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
I consider these valid questions. I hold they can only be
answered by testing. This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed. The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government. This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits. We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty. We now elect our “monarchs” for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life. That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits. The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes. Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it. A
monarchy can be quite as limited. The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta. Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers. It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea. And the opportunity took a
revolution.
A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question. It is only a matter of
timing. It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life. As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
We are coming to the time of making that choice.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1388)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 19:37:10
Subject: WACO

PB> My mind is far from closed, but it appears that a few
PB> members
PB>
PB> Well Lester, it should have read bullet-riddled. If you
PB> would like to discuss hyperbole, you only have to read
PB> the replies to my posts to see that there is a genuine
PB> paranoia on the part of those who see this entire event
PB> as a government conspiracy, from the start. I have
PB> heard terms like: poison gas used to describe a
PB> non-lethal gas; tanks to describe armored personnel
PB> carriers (even the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is not a
PB> tank); and government control and manipulation of the
PB> media to describe the reports from CNN, ABC, CBS, and
PB> NBC.
PB>
PB> Compared to this parcel of paranoia, “Bullet Riddled”
PB> is very, very mild.

Your mind is closed in that your simply ignore information
when the cited source of the information is the government or
known technical references. Thus you deny there were tanks when
the government enumerated the tanks and CEVs in use. You deny
there is a conspiracy when the government says it planned
everything the way it happened except being repelled in the first
attack. You deny the technical description of CS gas which says
it induces life threatening pneumonia that requires
hospitalization. You refuse to admit the ONLY source of
information as to what was happening was the government.

That is the evidence you have a closed mind. I have
personally described each of those items to you in detail and
provided my source of the information — save maybe the gas but I
will dig up those references if you are willing to accept the
word of the government on all the rest.

And I do not give a damn if you personally heard (more
likely remember) any of those points are not. It is readily
available information.

PB> Lester, from what I was able to observe, the structure
PB> was intact when the fire started. If sufficient
PB> structural damage had been done the exterior of the
PB> building would have failed too. Most interior wall,
PB> though not all, are partitions, not bearing walls. If
PB> you have ever seen such a structure demolished, you
PB> would know that knocking one down is much tougher than
PB> driving a tank through a few exterior walls.
PB>
PB> If interior bearing wall had collapsed, it should have
PB> brought the roof down with them. I didn’t see that
PB> happen. Did you? The flimsy interior structure, as you
PB> described it, is just that. Usually 2×4 partitions with
PB> drywall or paneling. Such walls are not likely to trap
PB> anyone because of their flimsy construction and very
PB> light weight.

And this is another example. I have cited court testimony,
under oath by prosecution witnesses supporting the damage to the
structure. Yet that does not get through your very closed mind.
You could ONLY have seen one side of the house. The camera crews
were limited to one viewpoint. If you will look further into the
matter the government readily explains why you did not see by
when it reports the tank that was smashing the walls and driving
into the building were on the side of the building away from the
camera. The government said it. Do you disagree?

PB> Lester, the compound was very large. The that were
PB> punched in the building were minor relative to the size
PB> of the structure. If someone were to drive a tank
PB> through my home, there would still be numerous ways
PB> out, including the holes left by the tanks. I can’t
PB> believe that the tanks were able to block every window,
PB> every door, and whatever openings the tanks created.

This has already been explained to you and you refuse to
listen. Closed mind.

PB> LG> Now tell me, how open is your mind to reconsidering your
PB> LG> previous conclusion?

PB> Lester, there are options, possibilities, and
PB> probabilities. You and I will never know what went
PB> through the minds of the people in that compound. We
PB> will never know why they didn’t surrender, nor will we
PB> know why they couldn’t find a door or window to escape
PB> the inferno. For all I know, Elvis returned from the
PB> grave and set the fire because he didn’t like the way
PB> Koresh butchered “Hunka, Hunka, Burning Love.”

You are definitely closed-minded as Lester has identified
you. This last line indicates you are in need of serious
psychiatric intervention.

PB> What I do know is that no matter how BAFT screwed up
PB> the original raid, whether they were right or wrong, or
PB> even guilty of criminal acts, that a reasonable,
PB> rational person would have at least surrendered the
PB> children to keep the out of harms way. He didn’t care
PB> enough about them to save them.

Then why do you not condemn the BATF for attacking while the
children were present? Who else put them in danger? Excuse me.
I forgot you will deny government testimony that they had
conspired to attack for months.

PB> Lester, you might be able to justify an armed rebellion
PB> against the government, though you will never be able
PB> to explain why you took your kids along when you went
PB> to blow up the IRS building.

But can you explain why the BATF attacked while there were
children around? A school day would have minimized the risk but
they had to choose a Sunday to make certain they were all at
home.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1389)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:01:10
Subject: Waco – 2/2

PB> LG> Wake up, Pete. You’re defending a rouge agency.

PB> Lester, let us assume for arguments sake that the BATF
PB> is everything that you say they are. From what I
PB> understand the final assault was directed by the FBI
PB> and not the BAFT. The FBI has always been a very
PB> professional law enforcement agency. Who do you blame
PB> for the final assault, the FBI or the BAFT?

Documented BATF lies brought the FBI into it. Who was
responsible? As for you assertion of “always” obviously not any
more.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1391)
To: Linda Terrell 15 May 94 05:31:10
Subject: Waco – Murder By Our

LT> PB> PB> We both know that Koresh was the father of several
LT> PB> > children, by different mothers. Many of whom were well below
LT> PB> > the age of consent.
LT> PB>
LT> PB> KS> Well *I* don’t know that. Could you cite your source please?
LT> PB>
LT> PB> CNN.

LT> I also *read* it in the local newspaper. REad
LT> interviews with the mothers, too.

Then you did not read very carefully or you choose not to
remember. But as preamble, what you say is not illegal in the
state it is said to have occured.

To the point he married only one woman (no one has produced
a second marriage license.) She was 14. Their first child was
when she was 18. There is another woman like that in the public
eye at the moment. Her name is Priscilla Presley.

Next, there were similar claims of “spiritual” marriage but
there are no connections between the ages of the mothers and the
children to support the allegation of the age of the women at
conception. However, even if true, it was not illegal.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1393)
To: Terry Liberty-parker 20 May 94 20:10:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OUR

TL> PB> You can obtain a copy of the coroner’s report through
TL> PB> the Freedom of Information Act. That is, if you really
TL> PB> want to see it.

TL> I live in Austin, Tx. The Texas state level version of the
TL> Federal Freedom of Information Act is the “Open Records
TL> Act.”
TL>
TL> Texas Open Records Act requests, by both media and public,
TL> for info regarding Waco events, are getting routed from the
TL> State Police (DPS) to the Texas Attorney General; where
TL> they have been stalled.

Speaking of being stalled. Two months ago the San Antonio
Federal Court wrote and told me the matter of was under the
control of the Waco Federal Court. I immediately wrote the Waco
Federal Court requesting information on obtaining a transcript of
the trial. I have yet to receive an acknowledgement of the
request for information. Do you know of anyone who has had any
luck?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1395)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 20:07:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяя2

PB> PB> Have you considered sticking to the facts? The reason
PB> PB> that the BATF was going to search the compound was that
PB> PB> it was reported to them that Koresh had both explosives
PB> PB> and illegal arms. Further he had threatened the people
PB> PB> of Waco. Did you ever read the search warrant?

PB> MG> I have read the warrant and no such allegations are in the
PB> MG> warrant. I would suggest you stop pretending to facts you
PB> MG> do not have. You have not read the warrant or, if you did,
PB> MG> you are incapable of comprehending what it said.

PB> Then what were they looking for? What did the warrant
PB> specifically say that they were to search for?
PB> Kool-Aide?

You need to tell me. The best I can find in the warrant are
the materials for some low grade fireworks and legal weapons (and
non-existent weapons, not that there is no evidence but that have
never been manufactured.)

PB> PB> This is really humorous. You support a religious
PB> PB> fanatic who claims to be god and when he can’t get his
PB> PB> way he guns down and torches women and children. And
PB> PB> you think that I need help!

PB> MG> And he did not claim to be god either. You continue to make
PB> MG> things up as you go along.

PB> Go ahead and ignore the part where he murdered his
PB> followers and address the religious comment.

Let me address that. There is no evidence he murdered
anyone. He was also found dead of a gunshot wound to the head.
The angle was possible but not likely consistent with suicide.
The best the government could provide was at the trial. It
sounded to me like a reference to using kerosene against a tank
attack.

PB> PB> The government also said that they had explosives and
PB> PB> illegal arms. I saw a large explosion during the fire.

PB> MG> It was a BLEVE, most likely the propane tank.

PB> Likely the propane tank. How do you know. This is what
PB> I find so amusing; can you tell the difference between
PB> a gas tank and explosives? I don’t think so.

Because that is the kind of explosion it was. Why don’t you
get some of the tapes and take a look? It is your standard
Hollywood explosion which is a fuel/air explosion. High
explosive blows are not nearly as photogenic and it would have
reduced the fire for a few moments rather than contributing to
it. It is the difference between a gas tank and a firecracker
and the difference is obvious.

PB> PB> Could it be that some of the explosives that you said
PB> PB> the Davidians didn’t have blew up?

PB> MG> I have had the moderator of the FIDO Pyrotechnics
PB> MG> conference review the items listed in the warrant. It is
PB> MG> his opinion they would at best be low grade fireworks.

PB> I was once at a party where some jerk filled a coke
PB> bottle up with low-grade gun powder and set it off in
PB> the back yard. To him it was New Years prank, but it
PB> killed his dogs that was twenty feet away, it broke
PB> several windows in the back of the home and sent two
PB> guests to the hospital.

PB> I guess that David just wanted to celebrate a little.
PB> And I’m the Queen of Sheba.

I suggest you get a copy of the warrant and READ what is
alleged.

Do you really justify a search because of their possession
of cardboard tubes?

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Ginnane is jealous of Hillary.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1396)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 20:59:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяя3

PB> Then what were they looking for? What did the warrant
PB> specifically say that they were to search for?
PB> Kool-Aide?

PB> MG> And he did not claim to be god either. You continue to make
PB> MG> things up as you go along.

PB> Go ahead and ignore the part where he murdered his
PB> followers and address the religious comment.

PB> PB> The government also said that they had explosives and
PB> PB> illegal arms. I saw a large explosion during the fire.

PB> MG> It was a BLEVE, most likely the propane tank.

PB> Likely the propane tank. How do you know. This is what
PB> I find so amusing; can you tell the difference between
PB> a gas tank and explosives? I don’t think so.

PB> PB> Could it be that some of the explosives that you said
PB> PB> the Davidians didn’t have blew up?

PB> MG> I have had the moderator of the FIDO Pyrotechnics
PB> MG> conference review the items listed in the warrant. It is
PB> MG> his opinion they would at best be low grade fireworks.

PB> I guess that David just wanted to celebrate a little.
PB> And I’m the Queen of Sheba.

I suggest you get a copy of the warrant and READ what is
alleged.

Do you really justify a search because of their possession
of cardboard tubes?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1397)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 19:23:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> PB> They had the option to surrender. Not once, during
PB> PB> dozens of posts, has one of you Koresh-wannabes ever
PB> PB> explained why a rational human being would not
PB> PB> surrender when lawfully ordered to do so.

PB> MG> I have told you many times. There is no law requiring
PB> MG> surrender. Why would you surrender to people who had
PB> MG> killed at least one of your children and who had shot you
PB> MG> twice when you opened the door?

PB> You are simply wrong. The law requires them to
PB> surrender to law enforcement officials when ordered to
PB> do so. They refused. I don’t believe that they ever had
PB> any intention of surrendering.

At the trial they were charged with everything under the sun
EXCEPT failure to surrender. If it is a law it is one the
government did not see fit to enforce. It would have gotten them
10 more convictions and three people would not have walked.

If they did not intend to surrender they could have built a
wall around the place instead of a fire break.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1398)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> PB> MG> You are as ignorant of what happened here as you are of
PB> PB> MG> everything else in the matter. AND we have proof the government
PB> PB> MG> monitors FIDO also.

PB> PB> Ignorant I am not!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PB> MG> It works out to $36.5 million a year. However, as it was
PB> MG> for 51 days then the price of a human life to you is
PB> MG> $60,000 (51 * $100,000 / 85 dead.) Actually that is
PB> MG> remarkably close to the official actuarial price the
PB> MG> government puts on your life.

PB> I thought that it was 100 days.

PB> PB> Ignorant I am not!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You should not have been so quick to imply you know
something about this subject.

PB> MG> I said nothing about the warrant being illegal. All we
PB> MG> know is that it was perjured. We do know the Davidians
PB> MG> were doing nothing illegal.

PB> How do we know that the Davidians were doing nothing
PB> illegal?

Because there is not now nor was there then any evidence or
reasonable suspicion of any illegal activity.

PB> MG> The allegation in the warrant was that they had the
PB> MG> knowledge and the ability to produce weapons and that they
PB> MG> had not paid taxes on the weapons they might have produced.
PB> MG>
PB> MG> But you know all of this else you would not be writing with
PB> MG> such conviction.

PB> I am writing with the conviction that I know that
PB> Koresh was a lunatic.

How do you know that? I am interested in your evidence. I
would also like to know what law that violates.

I know that they were overly well
PB> armed

They had fewer arms per person than the average Texan. And,
as came out at the trial, a bit over half of them were packed up
for shipment to a gun show and were still packed when they were
hit by the fire.

or a “religious” group and that Koresh had a
PB> fantasy about going out in a blaze of gunfire.

No one has found any statement of his indicating that.

His actions in calling for help and a cease fire immediately
do not square with wanting a shoot out. If he did he would not
have called 911 and in fact he would have won the shootout. The
BATF was down to 40 rounds among a 100 men when they agreed to a
cease fire — it was the BATF refusing the cease fire you
realize. If he had kept the shooting going another few minutes
he could have come out and picked them off and THEN reported a
problem.

I also
PB> know that when given the option of surrendering
PB> peacefully that Koresh instead decided to shoot and
PB> burn his followers to death.

You know only what you have imagined. There is no evidence
either way as to who started the fire save the people who were
inside at the time and told how it started. The government
released its story thirty minutes into the fire and released it
from Washington. They had no way of knowing at the time.

PB> MG> You also know the government has not been able to
PB> MG> demonstrate who started the fire or how and that the
PB> MG> government blamed the Davidians from Washington 30 minutes
PB> MG> after the fire started. You also know the government had
PB> MG> created a fire break around the compound only five days
PB> MG> before the fire.

PB> Was it a firebreak, or did it serve some other
PB> function? I was told that the arson investigators said
PB> that kerosene was used to start the fire.

What do you call a fire break that is not a fire break? All
brush was cleared away. Why? It was not that they needed a
clear line of sight after 47 days.

Have you never heard of kerosene lanterns that we knew they
were using from the news from the time the gov shut off the
electricity?

The arson investigator whose wife works for the BATF, was
interviewed by ABC news. He indicated it was something much more
than kerosene before he said, “I’d better not say any more.”

PB> MG> He was under no such obligation. None of the people who
PB> MG> staying inside were charged with that crime. It is not a
PB> MG> crime nor an obligation.

PB> You are obligate to obey the lawful commands of a
PB> police officer. That is codified in law in every State
PB> of the Union.

Perhaps if they had been ordered by local or state police to
so. However, these were the feds. They do no have such a law.
That is the way it goes.

PB> PB> To Koresh, life was, evidently, very cheap.

PB> MG> Are you saying his price was less than the $60,000 price tag
PB> MG> you put on life?

PB> From what I understand Koresh spend about Fifty cents
PB> per Davidian that he burned to death. That was the
PB> price of the kerosene that he used to immolate them.

Bad example as there is still no evidence as to who started
it or how it started save for the 2nd video showing a flame
throwing tank in the act of using it. The evidence is right
there is you want to look at it.

PB> MG> Yes there was. That is the testimony before Congress. I
PB> MG> can not change the testimony of Sessions. That is what he
PB> MG> said. And the gas used induces chemical pneumonia in
PB> MG> children in three hours requiring hospitalization to try to
PB> MG> save their lives. The government exposed them to CS gas
PB> MG> for over six hours. I do not consider that humane.

PB> Was Koresh humane in not sending the children out of
PB> the building?

It appears you are saying the government is no better than
Koresh. Koresh won’t send them out so the government has a right
to try to kill them.

Koresh’s mistake was that he believed the government when
they said they would wait him out and would take no action. That
was also said four days before the final attack.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1399)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 20:08:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> MG> The BATF is the sole cause of every subsequent event and
PB> MG> bears complete responsibility for them as THEY initiated
PB> MG> the action. The also lied to the FBI about events. They
PB> MG> bear full responsibility.

PB> Give me a call when ATF is charged with a crime.

I am doing what I can including a dozen letters outlining
their known and admitted crimes.

PB> PB> intelligence report on Koresh said that he was
PB> PB> predisposed to violence, mentally unbalanced, and
PB> PB> unpredictable.

PB> MG> You are the only person who knows of such a report. What is
PB> MG> its title and who prepared it? Please be specific. And please
PB> MG> stop making things up.

PB> The ATF had an agent in the compound before the raid.
PB> He told them that Koresh and his followers were
PB> dangerous. Turn on CNN and you will get a dose of the
PB> facts, for a change.

I did watch CNN and there were no such reports. The man on
the inside has been notably absent from public interviews. There
has certainly not been one bit of evidence provided to indicate
they were dangerous prior to the raid INCLUDING at the trial.

PB> PB> Then, as the story goes, the Davidians began shooting
PB> PB> at the BATF.

PB> MG> Where did you hear that story? Please be specific. The
PB> MG> prosecution witnesses who testified did not say that. You
PB> MG> should have gotten to the prosecutor with your information
PB> MG> so he could use it.

PB> CNN. I am just repeating what I heard on the news.

That story was not what was on CNN or ABC. Sorry. The only
story related to an agent shooting himself is that after doing so
he shouted “I’m hit” and that the BATF opened fire at that point.
If you are going to repeat stories you need to get them straight.

PB> MG> You are the first person to come up with that specific
PB> MG> variation of the story.

PB> CNN reported that an agent may have accidentally
PB> discharged his weapon.

Above you recited a certainty to the point of determining
who shot first (notably absent from prosecution testimony) and
now you say, “may”. Yes, there was clearly an agent who shot
himself but he is climbing a ladder at the time. I have it on
tape.

You will also find it a matter of trial testimony that the
agent reported to have been shot as he exited the horse carrier
didn’t.

PB> PB> then why were they so eager to shoot what were
PB> PB> obviously law enforcement officers?

PB> MG> As there is no one but you with your version of the story
PB> MG> there is no answer to that question. It can only be
PB> MG> assumed it did not occur.

PB> You can only avoid the real questions by claiming that
PB> it did not occur.

I have not claimed it did not occur. I am only stating you
are the only person with this version of the story.

PB> MG> But the grand jury would not indict him for lack of
PB> MG> evidence it was other than self defense. BTW: When he was
PB> MG> charged with murder the sheriff called him on the phone and
PB> MG> asked him to come in and surrender to the charge. He did
PB> MG> AND turned in his personal weapons. There is no evidence
PB> MG> of any violence in his nature.

PB> Is it normal for a sheriff to ask a criminal wanted for
PB> murder to turn himself in? No! The Sheriff undoubtedly
PB> didn’t want to have to face a Davidian ambush.

Yes it is normal. If you are charged with it out of no
where and you are known to the local police you will get a phone
call also. It is nothing unusual.

However the point is not imagining the sheriff’s reasons as
you are doing. The point it that Koresh DID come in and
surrender to the warrant AND surrendered his guns.

PB> Can you prove that it was the propane tank? Maybe
PB> Koresh stored his explosives near the gas tank. Maybe
PB> the tank was empty. You have an answer to everything.

Sir, a fireman on Controversy first identified the type of
explosion. I will accept his professional opinion. You should
consider doing so also.

PB> MG> At the testimony to Congress in the matter they bragged of
PB> MG> having been involved in hundreds of similar raids in the previous
PB> MG> eighteen months. I do not have to name them. I have the
PB> MG> Congressional testimony.

PB> Then list a few of them for us.

I do not have the list. I have the statement. If you are
saying they were lying fine with me. If they were lying to
Congress they were certainly lying to the media.

PB> MG> I think that Koresh was a bomb waiting to
PB> PB> go off. His irrational behavior during the siege proves
PB> PB> that he was unbalanced.

PB> MG> What you think is predicated upon you lack of knowledge of
PB> MG> the events as they happened. Your thoughts are based upon your
PB> MG> imagination.

PB> Wrong! No rational human being guns down his follows or
PB> burns them to death instead of surrendering to the FBI.

He was one of those “gunned down.” Are you suggesting he
shot himself in order to prevent himself from leaving?

PB> The fine points of this incident may never be known,
PB> but we know that they had the opportunity to surrender
PB> and they did not. We know from the electronic bugs that
PB> Koresh was hopeful of going out in a blaze of gunfire.

Where can I get those transcripts? The one I heard and read
said no such thing.

PB> We also know that none of those who died in the final
PB> raid were crushed by tanks or shot by law enforcement.

When know that seven of them were killed by blunt force
trauma when the tank collapsed concrete on them by driving back
and forth over the bunker for half an hour. That is in the
coroner’s report.

PB> Koresh joined the club of dead pseudo-messiahs like Jim
PB> Jones, we are better of that he is gone.

You forget the other 89 people the government murdered.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1400)
To: Pete Bucy 13 May 94 20:32:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> MG> That indicates you have to problem with simply killing
PB> MG> people who do not choose to surrender.

PB> Law enforcement did not kill one person in the final
PB> assault on the compound.

It is called felony murder. The use of tanks was illegal.

Not one person was crushed by
PB> a tank or shot by law enforcement personnel.

Just killed with the falling concrete the tanks broke loose.

Koresh and
PB> his henchmen shot and burned them all to death. What a
PB> sad role model you have picked.

You keep forgetting Koresh shot himself to keep himself
escaping. You fail to point out NONE of the survivors report
anyone shooting at them from the inside.

PB> MG> Why does that sound like the Warsaw Ghetto — down to the
PB> MG> fire?

PB> It does not sound at all like the Warsaw Ghetto. The
PB> people of Warsaw, Poland were placed in the Ghetto by
PB> the Nazi Empire with the intention of starving them to
PB> death. They had no opportunity to have their case heard
PB> before a court that could set them free. You truly have
PB> a warped sense of history.

—————————————————————————
The following quotes are from an article titled “Authorities used
SS tactics against Koresh cult” by Walter Williams. It appeared
locally in the State Journal-Register on 4/29, and he is
syndicated thru Heritage Features Syndicate.

“Because of previous outrages, 12 years ago, Rep. John
Dingell described the Treasury Department’s Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) as `jackbooted fascists.’ Little has
changed since then.

His son, John Dingell Jr., related in a Wall Street Journal
article in March the similarities between our black-uniformed,
`coal-scuttle’ helmeted, machine-pistol toting BATF agents and
Nazi SS agents who 50 years earlier, similarly dressed and
equipped, attacked the Jewish compound in Warsaw, Poland.

That’s not the only similarity. Janet Reno gave suspicion of
child abuse as partial justification for the government’s action.
That’s exactly what the Nazi news media told Germans about Jews
— they were involved in sexual rituals involving children.

Like the BATF, Nazi SS men said they were searching for
illegal weapons, reported by paid informants, in the Warsaw
ghetto. When SS agents stormed the ghetto, Warsaw Jews put up a
fierce resistance, killing 11 of them and wounding many more.

The SS had to call in armored military units for assistance.
The BATF/FBI’s armored units didn’t use bullets and shells. They
used O-chlorobenzalmalonnitrile, known as CS gas, banned for use
in war by the Paris Chemical Weapons Convention.

The Clinton people owe us answers. From what I’ve learned,
the Branch Davidians, despite their constitutionally protected
strange religious beliefs, were model citizens. They kept to
themselves and harmed no one. Members were there voluntarily.
David Koresh’s lawyer says the children were well fed and cared
for; there was no child abuse. Besides, when has child abuse
come under the jurisdiction of either the BATF or the FBI?

One might argue that Koresh didn’t heed the BATF warrant to
search the premises. Just because a judge authorizes a search
doesn’t make it right. If one has not committed a crime against
someone, what business is it of the government how many and what
type of guns a person possesses?

The BATF/FBI allegation of stockpiling weapons is but so much
hogwash. Perhaps they should tell us what’s the legal number of
semi-automatic weapons. Even if 500 weapons are found at the
compound, that’s not even eight per adult.” …

“Clinton said that Koresh and the Branch Davidians are
responsible for what happened to them since they resisted the
BATF and FBI. That’s identical to the defense given by four Los
Angeles police officers who beat Rodney King — he could have
ended the beating any time by submitting to authority.

There are other `cults.’ I bet Utah’s Mormons have loads of
guns. Will they be the next BATF/FBI victims? You really have to
wonder what our country is coming to when people who go about
their lives bothering no one, minding their own business and
cherishing their privacy are subject to a vicious attack by their
government while muggers, thieves, rapists, and murders run
rampant.”

———————————-

PB> MG> The police forces I am aware of follow the some policy as
PB> MG> is in the FBI hostage manual. All wait them out. Never
PB> MG> take action unless there is imminent loss of life. The
PB> MG> Brits had a prison uprising some years ago. They waited
PB> MG> three months and finally and finally it was over with no
PB> MG> additional loss of life. They have the same policy of
PB> MG> waiting also.

PB> They do not wait for 100 days.

In fact they waited closer to five months.

Can you name one
PB> situation in America where the criminals were permitted
PB> to hold the police at bay for 100 days?

I did not say it happened. I said failure to wait leads to
unnecessary death just like it says in the FBI manual.

PB> MG> The police
PB> PB> would be powerless to serve search warrants.

PB> MG> Sorry, a red herring here. The BATF did not plan to serve
PB> MG> their warrant until after they had subdued the compound.
PB> MG> In Florida such searches are unconstitutional.

PB> No they are not.

Sorry. We just had the case. The methods were very similar
down to the concussion grenade. They are unconstitutional EXCEPT
where there is a possibility of disposing of the evidence if
there is a delay upon entering. (Guns don’t flush.)

There are warrants where the police
PB> are allowed to break down the door first.

Please pay attention. There are in fact such warrants.
However, until there is warrant service which consists of
announcing identity and possession of a warrant (which can be as
little as shouting “Police! Warrant!” there is no warrant
service. Until there is service there is no obligation to
comply.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1401)
To: Beetle Maniac 15 May 94 19:57:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

BM> > BM> > Absolutely, the fault would belong to those who ran the
BM> > BM> > seige and prevented the parents from being able to provide
BM> > BM> > from their children.
BM> >
BM> > BM> Not at all. The siege would be designed to prevent
BM> > BM> incoming supplies, not outcoming surrenders.
BM> >
BM> > Lets see. They refused to supply diapers and infant
BM> > formula. They shut off the water and electricity. What supplies
BM> > are referring to?

BM> Yeah, those sorts of things. Hell, if they stopped
BM> the supply of Pampers, they’d have mass-surrenders in
BM> almost no time from the stench alone! Long before anyone
BM> got even marginally hungry.

Wrong again. They were shut off.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1402)
To: Beetle Maniac 15 May 94 19:58:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

BM> > BM> Parents who
BM> > BM> wanted to provide for their children could have done so
BM> > BM> simply be coming out and surrendering to authorities.
BM> >
BM> > Surrender for what? There is no law that required them to
BM> > leave.

BM> Once the minions of law enforcement were in place,
BM> the relative rightness or wrongness of their respective
BM> positions became moot.

That is what Wallace thought in Selma. If you are saying it
became a mano a mano situation we are still not talking about the
law. We are only talking about who can win.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1403)
To: Beetle Maniac 15 May 94 20:00:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

BM> > So you agree the intention was to starve out the
BM> > children. What more do you want to say about this?

BM> Well, the children would certainly be among the
BM> first to suffer ill effects from the siege, and that would
BM> work to the advantage of those conducting it, since the
BM> children’s parents would, presumably, want to avoind seeing
BM> their children starve to death and would, therefore,
BM> surrender to avoid that eventuality. But the presence or
BM> absence of children shouldn’t necessarily dictate tactics
BM> in terms of a seige.

The operating manual of the FBI that was conducting the
siege says that it should. Explain.

However, the presence of children
BM> probably should have influenced the decision-makers’
BM> thinking, at least to the extent of ruling out brute
BM> force.

It should also rule out the use of a gas that would have
required their being hospitalized to save (some of) their lives
had there not been a fire.

That means the threat was to come out or we will kill your
children. It takes three hours of gassing to do that. They were
given six hours of gas. ALL of them would have died without
intervention. Yes, the children were given a death sentence to
obtain surrender.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1404)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:18:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> TL> Now just where IS that old coroner’s report. Oh thats
PB> TL> right, the Feds ate it! Otherwise the Kult Fed FaithFul
PB> TL> would have got sick to their stomachs trying to reconcile
PB> TL> the contradictions between reality and Revealed Truth.

PB> You can obtain a copy of the coroner’s report through
PB> the Freedom of Information Act. That is, if you really
PB> want to see it.

The coroner is a state employee and he produces a state
document. The FOIA only covers federal documents. Buy you knew
that.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1405)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:19:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> Many facts and perceptions of the Davidian incident in
PB> Waco, Texas can, and will, be debated for some time to
PB> come, but it is truly irrefutable that after the
PB> initial raid that Koresh and his followers could have
PB> peacefully surrendered.

And the FBI could have peacefully walked away. What is your
point?

PB> For me, this was the focus of the entire event. No
PB> rational person who as facing such a superior force
PB> would have anything to gain by sitting on his hands for
PB> 100 days.

What did he have to lose? The government promised him they
would simply wait him out. Or did you miss that statement on
CNN?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1406)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:21:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> PB> Koresh could have had his day in court,

PB> CB> Would you mind reposting the grand jury indictment of Koresh?

PB> It is not in my possession.

Then what gives you the impression you know what you are
talking about? Please be specific.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1407)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:22:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> PB> Then all of the TV coverage of Koresh must have been a
PB> PB> conspiracy. We both know that Koresh was the father of
PB> PB> several children, by different mothers. Many of whom were
PB> PB> well below the age of consent.

PB> JW> Where do you get this trash, do you just make
PB> JW> it up??

PB> This fact was reported on CNN.

No it was not. CNN did report unconfirmed rumors to that
effect. You could be at least as honest as CNN.

PB> PB> We certainly saw David Koresh lie to everyone on national
~~~~~~~~~~~
PB> PB> tv. Even his lawyer displayed disgust at his lies.

PB> JW> Yep! you do make it up out of your fertile imagination.
PB> JW> David Koresh was NEVER on television with, or without his
PB> JW> lawyer, within 6 mo. of the attack. He wasn’t allowed to
PB> JW> communicate in any way with the outside world, from the
PB> JW> time of the attack on the church, to the time of the
PB> JW> federal BBQ of the children, he had access through one
PB> JW> audio tape, which the feds admitted to editing.

PB> Koresh was not on tv,

The only thing of interest is that you are backing down from
your original claim. That is quite unusual.

but he agreed to surrender after
PB> he was allowed to tell his side of the story on a local
PB> radio station. He got his time on the air, but, as
PB> always, he refused to surrender. He lied.

The FBI told you that is what he promised. When did YOU
hear him say it?

PB: “National TV.”

If you keep this up we could revive the “Who’s on First”
routine.

PB> JW> He made a video tape showing himself, and
PB> JW> the children in which he asked the children if
PB> JW> they wanted to leave, but the tape was suppressed
PB> JW> by the F.B.I., and even the press was told that
PB> JW> the children were being held against their will.
PB> JW> Can you say liar?? The word fits Janet Reno very
PB> JW> well, because she called a press conference to
PB> JW> tell the media that the tape did NOT exist, and
PB> JW> she had SEEN THE TAPE before the press was lied
PB> JW> to.

PB> Children are not able to discern between a safe and a
PB> dangerous situation. Koresh had no right to hold those
PB> children in a situation where the eventually died.

However, the tape satisfied every EVERY criteria Reno gave
the press when she denied any such tape existed. Can you say,
liar? Psychotic too but that is another story.

PB> PB> He claimed to be God, plain and simple. Read his teachings,
PB> PB> if you can call the rantings of a lunatic that.

PB> JW> Either you have NOT read his teachings yourself,
PB> JW> or you are incapable of understanding english, because
PB> JW> I have most of his public writings (I will bet I have
PB> JW> more than you even have access to), and nowhere does he
PB> JW> claim to be God. The CLOSEST that he comes to ever
PB> JW> saying anything even REMOTELY resembling your claim,
PB> JW> is when he said that he was the inheritor of Christ’s
PB> JW> mantle, and had the power to open, and interpret the
PB> JW> seven seals.

PB> That sounds like God to me.

You are calibrating yourself.

PB> To be honest, I don’t want his teachings anymore than I
PB> want to read from the works of Charles Manson, Jim
PB> Jones or Louis Farrakhan. He did not inherit anything
PB> from Christ. His sole claim to fame is murder. He
PB> accomplished nothing else.

They might make it too hard for you to keep your mind
closed. It would take time to find a way to avoid admitting you
have no idea what you are talking about.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1408)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:31:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> JW> Whether the search warrant was, or was not legal, because
PB> JW> it was never served, and the BATF testified at the trial
PB> JW> that they had no intention to serve the warrant legally.

PB> Then why have the officers of the AFT not been charged
PB> with crimes? You perception of legality is far removed
PB> from reality.

Reno has to do it and if she opened an investigation she
would also be investigated. She is quite culpable in this and it
would reveal her as a psychotic unsuited for her office.

PB> Those who later surrendered were not harmed. I would
PB> think that any reasonable person would surrender to
PB> avoid further violence.

There was no way of knowing if they had been harmed. They
were held without charges and without legal counsel and without
contact with the outside world. How would anyone know?

PB> The reason for using gas was to flush them out. The gas
PB> was not poison gas. You distort the facts on a scale
PB> that would make Pravda blush.

Why did they not use tear gas? Why did they have to use CS
gas propelled by either poisonous carbon monoxide or flammable
acetone? (We do not know which was used. Government
representatives has mentioned both but only those two.)

Where did you get the idea the government did not claim to
have used a poisonous gas as a propellant?

PB> If the United States Government did everything in its
PB> power to kill them it would have ordered a nuclear
PB> strike. You keep exaggerating the truth and the lies.

A nuclear strike would have been obvious. The fed gov was
caught loading a helo with a drum of gasoline in the Weaver case.
Why do you think they were not ready to burn him out also? Or
what do you think they were going to do with the gasoline?

PB> My intelligence is not something that you are even
PB> capable of judging.

From what you have posted you have given a very good
indication.

While you may try to infer that
PB> because I don’t agree with your misguided support of
PB> the Kentucky Fried Messiah that I am not intelligent.
PB> It merely shows that you are unable to debate the issue
PB> on the merits of the case.

It is very difficult to debate a subject with a person who
refuses to accept the basic known facts of the case from the best
sources we are likely to ever have, sworn testimony.

PB> You have made every excuse to condone the fact that
PB> Koresh and his henchmen murdered their followers and
PB> finally, they murdered each other. Like it or not the
PB> arson investigators said that the fire was stated with
PB> a flammable liquid and not gas.

Then you have no idea what he determined. See what I mean
about debate?

In this case we have who know the facts of the case debating
your fantasy life. A fantasy life you are obviously incapable of
distinguishing from reality.

If you are waiting for
PB> Koresh to arise from the tomb, you will have a long
PB> time to wait. The Koresh Kabob is gone forever and were
PB> are not diminished by his passing.

Nor would the world by yours. So?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1409)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 20:49:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> JW> Koresh NEVER GOT ON TV. Sorry to burst your bubble, but
PB> JW> the entire church was held without outside communications,
PB> JW> because the F.B.I. couldn’t let them tell their side of the
PB> JW> story.

PB> Koresh was not on TV, but the story was on tv every
PB> night.

Despite your lie, Koresh was never on TV. Why do you try to
pretend you know what you are talking about?

I don’t know if they had outside communications
PB> or not,

Obviously you do not. The rest of us do.

two of their members were licensed ham radio
PB> operators and as even you might know, you don’t need
PB> telephone lines to communicate if you have a short wave
PB> radio.

Ever hear of electricity? Did you not know they were
jammed? Illegally of course but it was done. When are you going
to learn to distinguish your fantasies from reality?

PB> JW> I take it back. You are NOT semi-intelligent.

PB> You are right; I’m very intelligent.

You are demonstrably psychotic.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1410)
To: Gary Steinweg 20 May 94 20:54:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

GS> PB> Koresh had threatened people in Waco. It was on the news
GS> PB> from the first day of the standoff.

GS> Well, there you go. The news was a result of BATF press
GS> releases. The BATF ADMITTEDLY told MORE than one lie.
GS> Consequently, I refuse to believe anything that originated
GS> with the BATF where there is a shred of evidence or even a
GS> suspicion to the contrary.

Actually the evidence is in the warrant. The BATF was
merely demonstrating the Koresh was a true Prophet by referring
to the LA riots before they occurred. The BATF obviously
believed he was a holy man and sent from god.

They were obviously out to destroy him for that reason.

There is no other conclusion from the BATF warrant except
that they lied but we know that is impossible.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1411)
To: Gary Steinweg 20 May 94 21:02:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

GS> MP> Weren’t 4 out of 5 of the BATF agents killed, were by
GS> MP> mercury tipped bullets…(armour piercing)….which were
GS> MP> very unlikely possessed by the Waco Davidians, rather, used
GS> MP> by the BATF themselves…which went right through their
GS> MP> bulletproof jackets?

GS> I’ve heard this, but I’ve also heard the autopsy results
GS> are lost and the bodies no longer exist. It’s not
GS> unreasonable, however. I’m reminded of a shoot-out during
GS> a bank robbery in Orange County, CA about six years ago.
GS> One robbber, 10-15 cops. 60 rounds fired. Three cops down
GS> and the robber dead. Robber had fired his gun once, and
GS> his bullet was found in the ceiling.

Lets get clear what you heard them. Mercury is a liquid at
room temperature and a long way below and no amount of mystical
ignorant of chemistry or physics will make it armor piercing.

The was a report in SOF of a type of bullet designed to
penetrate body armor that is only sold to the government. They
were unable to get official copies of the autopsies also.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1412)
To: Kate Secrest 20 May 94 21:13:10
Subject: Waco – Murder By Ourяяяяя

KS> PB> They refused. I don’t believe that they ever had any
KS> PB> intention of surrendering.

KS> I don’t believe they did either. I certainly wouldn’t
KS> have. If they had then Koresh would certainly have more
KS> than earned his reputation for insanity!

The Davidians were not charged with “failure to surrender”
or anything remotely related to that. They were violating no law
in not surrendering.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1413)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 21:19:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> TL> How do you drive a tank thru a residence without harming
PB> TL> the occupants?

PB> Let me make it simple for you. You drive the tank
PB> through the living room while the cultists are praying
PB> to Koresh in the bathroom. Whoops…missed!

Save the FBI KNEW (incorrectly) by their own admission the
children were on the second floor and by their own admission of
having the drawings for the building they were driving through
support members for the second floor.

Ask they why they deliberately did exactly that. They have
already admitted it. No one has asked them why.

PB> This may come as a shock, but the government does not
PB> own CNN or any of the other assorted news services.

It may come as a shock to you but despite your claims Koresh
was on national TV, CNN has NO source of information other than
the government. That is called censorship.

PB> PB> I have never seen CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc… as pawns of the
PB> PB> government.

PB> TL> Why in hell NOT! They were certainly coerced and
PB> TL> compromised on Waco.

PB> Is the same news services that brought Nixon to his
PB> knees and have investigated Clinton at every
PB> opportunity? Why doesn’t Clinton, a democrat leader of
PB> a democrat party run government tell the press to quit
PB> investigating him? Don’t you think that if he had such
PB> power that we would have never heard of Watergate?

For the same reason you are mixing apples and oranges. In
the Waco case the government representatives were the only source
of information and controlled every word regarding events the
press was told.

The Clinton case would only have been comparable if the
press had been allowed access to Koresh. They all asked for it
and it was denied every time.

Now anyone who claims to be “very bright” or even marginally
bright will certainly see that difference. However the
distinction will elude you.

PB> “Paranoia runs deep. Into your life it will creep. It
PB> starts when you are always afraid.” 1960s maggot
PB> infested rock group.

Would your use of drugs explain you?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1414)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 21:28:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> I stand corrected on the 100 day. Actually, I picked-up
~~~~~~~~~~~
PB> that number from a pro-Koresh writer on this echo. Five
PB> days would have been too long.

There is a technical term for such a claim. That term is
LIE.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1415)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 21:30:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> I don’t see what needs to be investigated. A self
PB> appointed messiah incinerated his followers. What is
PB> the big deal?

Anyone claiming to be “very bright” would know the fallacy
of presuming the conclusion of an investigation to justify not
having an investigation. Even a “not very bright” person would
see that fallacy. What is your excuse this time?

PB> TL>> Petey Percieves them coming out and driving the tanks over
PB> TL>> THEMSELVES!

PB> The coroner did not say that anyone had been run over
PB> by a tank.

The coroner DID say they died of being crushed by concrete
that was broken loose by the tanks. What do you respond, oh
“very bright” person?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1416)
To: Pete Bucy 20 May 94 21:41:10
Subject: WACO – MURDER BY OURяяяяя

PB> He could have surrendered and told his story on 20/20,
PB> 60 minutes, The Arsinio Show, etc….

Really? Is that where you have seen the survivors telling
their stories? Please be specific. How many have you see?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1417)
To: All 11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0001234
********** On: GUNTALK – 0012 – GENPOL
———————————————————————–

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board. The
last message said, “I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid.” I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news. A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists —
men, women, and children. I wondered, “What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?”

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco. I don’t like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what. The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh. And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever. Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson! Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion. Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home. Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War. Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn’t have. The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him. Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them. He was shot at. He ducked back
inside. A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him. This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre. How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk? I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today. There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children. The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them. Is this justice? Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle. It was deliberate. It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI. It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States. It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?

* SLMR 2.1a * Don’t gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
— MMGR v3.52
* GUN-TALK GENeral POLitics Conference

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * The tuna doesn’t taste the same without the dolphin.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1418)
To: All 10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0648 – USA Politic-U
———————————————————————–

[I came across the tail end of something like this and never
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation. I later
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I
was was not arrested.

When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for
I was not for I was not on trial. [seizure of the property of
the innocent]

When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I
was not accused. [imprisonment for being a material witness]

When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge. [Civil rights
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide. [Chicago]

When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.

When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun. [Brady and Feinstein bills]

When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.
[government approved religions]

=====

Many other examples could be presented.

The time is nigh.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1422)
To: Scott Laroche 11 May 94 23:38:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN

SL> What the hell is wrong with our Canadian neighbors? Other
SL> than the fact that their socialist high-unemployment,
SL> high-taxes government is a role model for Tricky Slick? I
SL> like Canada. Well, the western half, anyway. The eastern
SL> half looks like Michigan. <g>

Actually Billie Jeff admires the German welfare system and
models his actions on them. It is something he wants to keep
very quite for some reason.

SL> What cheesy, plastic Canadians are you talking about? Other
SL> than the Trudeaus and Martin Short.

The ones that drive 20 mph in the left lane and think it is
illegal turn left on green.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1423)
To: Michael Pilon 12 May 94 18:41:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN

MP> SL> I’d rather be in Toronto in July than in in damp, humid, SL>
MP> MG> yellow-fever and mosquito-ridden Florida. How many cheesy SL>
MP> MG> plastic tourist dives CAN they fit in one state, anyway?

MP> MG> Not enough to satisfy the demand of cheesy, plastic Canadians.

MP> Avec fromage sans doute
MP> Mike Bruyere

its very runny

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1424)
To: Jack Wilder 13 May 94 21:00:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN

JW> MG> Canadian cuisine doesn’t have much standing in the world.

JW> Some of the finest french food in the world is
JW> served in Canada, and if your budget doesn’t allow for a
JW> trip to Europe, then a trip to Canada can expose your
JW> children to the same arrogance, and ambience that is
JW> found in France!(;->*

I have never seriously consider Quebec to be Canadian.
Neither do they for the most part.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1425)
To: Andy Blaney 15 May 94 20:19:10
Subject: YOU JEW FUCK OF A CAN

AB> VC> Well, I don’t know if bananas grow in Canada but a lot of
AB> VC> other things do.

AB> Well, we have palm trees here in Victoria !!!!

AB> MG> Lichen, blue-green algae. Lots of things.

AB> Both B.C. and Southern Ontario have large orchards.

Slimemolds and liverworts do have their seasons.

AB> B. C. Government is commencing a major Tourist
AB> advertising blitz, emphasing the FACT that Canada
AB> is safer than the United States of America, the FACT
AB> that Canada has a lower rate of crime per 1000 that that
AB> of the U. S., the FACT that guns are strictly controlled
AB> in Canada, the FACT that if a person comes into Canada
AB> for a 1 week vacation that the exchange rate between
AB> the U. S. Dollar and the Canadian Dollar will give the
AB> first 3* days are free. Try and top that one at Disneyland !!

It Disneyland there is more than tens of thousands of square
miles of boredom. In fact there is probably more to do in the
few acres of Disneyland than in the entire region.

AB> MG> Perhaps the tourist problem is the image. “Wild” just
AB> MG> doesn’t quite make it. Hundreds of thousands of square
AB> MG> miles of nothing isn’t going to do it either. Beautiful
AB> MG> downtown Toronto isn’t quite going to do it either.

AB> Whn was the last time that you were here in
AB> Victoria or on Vancouver Island.
AB>
AB> Just like the beer commercials portray, you can go
AB> skiing at 8:00 AM, trail riding at 10:00 am,
AB> mountain biking at 12 Noon, sailboarding at 2:00
AB> pm, and perhaps attend a theatre preformance at
AB> 7:00 pm, all within the same day, and within a
AB> radius of 50 miles.

Sounds like Salt Lake City to me.

AB> Sure, we have vast areas of remote and undisturbed
AB> territory.
AB>
AB> I’ve even waterskiied on the Mackenzie River at
AB> Inuvik, N.W.T., at 4:00 AM in bright sunlight
AB> (happened to be on June 22 – the day of the Summer
AB> Soltice <g>)

A strange thing to do before going to bed.

AB> MG> Canadian cuisine doesn’t have much standing in the world.

AB> My, my. Where have you been for the last number of
AB> years. It seems to me, that various contingents of
AB> Canadian Chefs have been winning the International
AB> Culinary Competitions held each year in Frankfurt,
AB> Germany.

Canadians only count those from Quebec as Canadian when they
can take the credit.

AB> Not ALL of us Canadians live on a Molson’s Blue and
AB> Back bacon diet.

I know. I have been to Montreal.

AB> MG> What is there about Canada except a change to get away from
AB> MG> civilization?

AB> Peace, safety, political stability, good economics,

a dropping exchange rate, unemployment

AB> people that still talk to each other, strangers
AB> that smile at each other when walking on the
AB> streets, clean air, clean water, no toxic waste
AB> dumps, cops that are POLITE and don’t pull their
AB> guns out when they pull you over for a real
AB> infraction, among many other things.

Can you imagine all the effort it would take to invent
things to say I did when I came back? “I was speeding but the
officer didn’t pull a gun on me.” That would be the big one I
guess. “I walked the streets,” would be right up there in the
top ten. “A stranger smiled at me,” would probably raise a few
eyebrows.

I have no idea why you think people will want to go there.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Hillarygate at the White House Travel Office.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1442)
To: All 24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

What Democracy Is
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote. As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote. I would suggest that
is garbage.
Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends. A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved. Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever. If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever. If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner. Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards. What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result. Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work. What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting. It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote. Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
I find myself arguing in the negative at this point. My
points are

1) Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

2) The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus. I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written. I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
A long discussion and more than a little digression. The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people. It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources. It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country — you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more. When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%. The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Tonya Harding, Spokeswoman for Full Contact Figure Skating.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1448)
To: All 24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

The Federal Reserve
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money. I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand. At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand. Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline. What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs. The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB. I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money. We all have done one or the other over the years. That
is all that is happening. What is of interest is how it is
happening.
When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody’s rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate. This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk. It is nothing you don’t know about.
The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market. A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
Of course you have. If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate. The only difference is the way it
is presented. One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property. If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company. You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income. Do not kid yourself it is anything else. You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years. If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income. Income for the government equals
revenues. Revenues equals taxes.
In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.
So what?
OK here is a “furrinstance.” Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income? It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate. That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone’s opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings. I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner. And thus the crux of
the issue.
Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
A long question, too long. The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs. It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be. That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power. I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country. Perhaps I missed
something. I am open to correction.
The world has gotten more complicated? Fine. Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB. Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB. And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
Certainly it would be a rocky transition. The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power. They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation. If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them. We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in “managing” our economy to do it.
It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression. That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1456)
To: All 24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0250 – FN-FSPEECH
———————————————————————–

12-BBS

A new echo is seeking backbone status. This echo is
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their
BBSing habit. Please request your Sysop to carry it today.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * I am Ozyharriet, Family of Families
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1468)
To: All 25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: HARRY WANG
* STOLEN * To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/13/94 – 0003631
********** On: T-RECALL – 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing! Call HCI’s toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible. Since it’s an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call–about 20 cents per minute–80 cents per full length call. Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won’t send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste. 1000, Washington, DC
20005. Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents…you get the idea. Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y’know…)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1474)
To: All 24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: SOFTWARE
*********** Conf: 0018 – S-DEATH&TAXES
———————————————————————–

The Secret Drug Profile
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination. They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.
They were infallible in their use of this technique. It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades. It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead. We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case. We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the “expert” making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
At least they made their “profile” public.
Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released. The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts. Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
This profile is for drug traffickers. It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets. It has been used against multi-millionaires. It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen. It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage. It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement. In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic. If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
“drug security forces” if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known. After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
We are not as “honest” as the Nazis. We keep our profile a
secret. It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
Of course we must ask if we are any better.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Getting even is a moral imperative.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1475)
To: All 24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

David L. Hale, now a government witness in the
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law
enforcement sources.

…

Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal’s now-defunct Madison Guaranty
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in
1986 to Mr. McDougal’s wife, Susan, the sources said.

…

Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved. He said
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because
her being a woman would make approval easier.

…

At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton’s and
Mr. McDougal’s ownership of the Whitewater venture.

…

Hale’s attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved
in the loan — Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client — knew
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan. He said it
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a
woman as the nominee borrower.

…

The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty
last month to two counts of defrauding the government. … He
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make
additional loans.

Leach: RTC may fire prober

Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government’s chief
investigator is about to lose her job.

Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

…

Mrs. Lewis’ belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach
crimes may have been committed.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate/Poli-Phil – (1487)
To: All 24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: AUTODOC
*********** Conf: 0109 – Debate
———————————————————————–

I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

Pardon me. Don’t we have a vice president? Clinton can
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of
his personal life.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * The worst you can do to a free man is kill him.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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The Aktion Reinhard Death Camps

Auschwitz Birkenau

Bergen-Belsen

Buchenwald

Chelmno

Dachau

Maidanek (Majdanek)

Mauthausen

Nordhausen

Belzec

Treblinka

Mittelbau Dora

Gusen

Westerbork

Matthias Giwer

John Hron

Ken McVay

Steve Thomas

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