LC> How can our military engage in acts of war, without
LC> Congress declaring war?
You aren’t paying attention. This is not a war. This is
not even a military action. It is, at best, a field exercise,
until the shooting starts that is.
®®юю R_9512 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_951223 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (805)
To: Larry Craig 18 Dec 95 13:11:10
Subject: Bosnia
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * I am responsible for Waco. — Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (806)
To: Jack Maynard 18 Dec 95 13:11:10
Subject: Bosnia
JM> On Dec 11, Lester Garrett sez this about something Larry Craig said:
JM> LC>> I thought it was Congress who declared war?
JM> LG> It is. Why then bring up this non sequitur?
JM> FYI, Of the last 150 military ‘actions’ only 5 have been declared a WAR.
What military action?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (807)
To: Larry Craig 18 Dec 95 13:13:10
Subject: Charade
LC> When did Congress appropriate funding for Bosnia?
It hasn’t. What makes you think that matters?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (808)
To: All 18 Dec 95 14:13:10
Subject: Clinton’s SS
Paul Weyrich commentary for 9/18
THE COUNTER-REBELLION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS
My colleague Mike Schwartz and I were in Chicago over the
weekend and there we met a very interesting young man named
William Kelly. Kelly is all of 28 years old and up until a couple
of years ago, he had no intention of being in politics.
Kelly was a young, naive seminary student who never paid
much attention to the political process until one day President
Clinton was coming to town to hold one of his town meetings.
Kelly decided to go. It struck him odd that all of the questions
President Clinton received from the audience were favorable,
questions such as, “Does it bother you that the media hasn’t
given you the credit you deserve for your outstanding work on the
economy?” And so on. So Kelly decided that Clinton should be
asked a questio n reflecting sentiment he had picked up in the
Chicago area. Kelly worked his way to the microphone and asked
the President why, when he had promised a middle class tax cut to
the American people in the 1992 elections, he had gone back on
his promise. That was it. No threats. No violence. Just a simple
and fair question. Bill Clinton went ballistic. Apparently his
handlers had assured them that he wasn’t to be asked any hostile
questions. Kelly was asked to leave by the Secret Service and he
complied immedi ately. There were no angry outbursts or further
demonstrations on his part. Of course, the national media played
up Kelly’s question because it was the only controversial thing
to have happened at this staged town meeting.
Kelly went home and three hours later, the Secret Service
arrived at his door. They arrested him for having caused a
disruption in the presence of the President of the United States.
They handcuffed him, put him in leg irons and hauled him off to
jail. Kelly couldn’t believe it. All he had done was ask a
legitimate question of the President of the United States.
A Secret Service agent later told Kelly that because he had
left peacefully when he was asked to do so, the Secret Service
would not have, on its own initiative, moved for his arrest. The
arrest, Kelly was told, was on orders from the President himself.
Kelly was completely new to all of this and he didn’t know
where to turn. Through a family friend, he was put in touch with
an attorney who went to work on the case. The attorney told him
it was a lead pipe cinch to get the charges dropped. There was no
case. But the attorney proved to be wrong. The charges remained
in the face of witnesses of all sorts that Kelly had done nothing
that an American citizen is not entitled to do. The attorney, who
himself had once been a prominent elected official in Chicago,
finally concluded that the charges were totally political. He
advised Kelly to contact his Congressman. But Kelly’s Congressman
was one Bobby Rush (D-IL), the former leader of the Black
Panthers who had now managed to get himself a seat in the House
of Representatives. Bobby Rush didn’t choose to help his
constituent. So Kelly’s attorney advised him to run against the
Congressman. On the day he announced his candidacy for Congress,
the governme nt dropped the charges against Kelly.
All of this has really radicalized Kelly who did
surprisingly well against Rush in the last election. Kelly has
now filed a lawsuit charging that the Rush district was created
solely to elect someone like Rush to Congress. If he wins the
lawsuit, he will run again.
In the meantime, Kelly has written a little book entitled
The Rights of the Middle Class. Advent of the Rebel Conservative.
In this 150 page paperback book, Kelly argues that the real war
against the middle class was joined at the Democratic convention
in Chicago in 1968. The riots at that convention, provoked by
radicals, led to the defeat of Hubert Humphrey by Richard Nixon
in the Fall of that year.
In the book, Kelly suggests that the radical rebellion of
the late 1960s was manufactured from above and thus cannot be
compared with true rebellions of the past. He traces the damage
done to the middle class by that manufactured rebellion and
suggests that only a defiant middle class rebellion against the
counter cultural movement of the 1960s will save the country.
Kelly is busy these days. In addition to his gerrymandering
lawsuit, he is attempting to get a proposition opposing
affirmative action on the November 1996 ballot in Illinois. He is
also organizing a demonstration for the 1996 Democratic
convention, which will be in Chicago. The idea of the
demonstration is to close the chapter of the radical 1960s with
an outpouring of sentiment from middle class folks that they have
had enough of the radical culture and they want to take their
country back.
I have no idea if Kelly will be able to accomplish all of
this. But one thing is for sure. Bill Clinton, in arranging for
his arrest, had no idea what a determined opponent he was
creating in Kelly. Kelly is absolutely right about the middle
class. That is what proposition 187 in California was all about.
It was the driving force behind the changes which took place in
the elections of 1994. It is the motivating factor for a great
deal of what is going on in our communities today. Two opponents
of the pro ho mosexual curriculum introduced in the Des Moines,
Iowa school system by a now out of the closet homosexual who was
Chairman of the school board there, were elected by strong
margins last week and in the process defeated the chairman in a
landslide.
The middle class is, indeed, beginning to speak up. The real
question which has yet to be answered is simply this: Given the
state of our culture and our nation, is the counter rebellion of
the middle class in time?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (809)
To: Paul Smith 18 Dec 95 13:28:10
Subject: Death by Second Hand Smok
PS> CIGARETTE HAZE TIED TO DEATH
PS> VA ordered to pay nonsmoker’s mate
PS> Associated Press
PS> INDIANAPOLIS – For 18 years, Mildred Wiley was a nurse in the
PS> psychiatric ward at a veterans hospital, caring for patients who
PS> smoked so much that she often worked in a blue haze.
PS> Last week, the U.S. Labor Department ordered the Department of
PS> Veterans Affairs to pay her widower $21,500 a year until his
PS> death – half of her salary – in the first worker’ compensation
PS> case in the nation linking secondhand smoke to a cancer death.
PS> – – – – – – – – –
PS> In Wiley’s case, the Labor Department ruled Dec. 8 that
PS> secondhand smoke was partly to blame for her death from lung
PS> cancer in 1991. She didn’t smoke. Nor does her husband.
PS> “This is great news, even though this one at the moment is
PS> confined to workers’ compensation,” said John Banzhaf, executive
PS> director of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH), a Washington
PS> based anti-smoking group, “It will alert people to the fact that
PS> they can make a claim which they didn’t think they could make
PS> before. Employers are going to say, ‘If we don’t ban smoking, we
PS> could face future claims.'”
PS> Source: THE SACRAMENTO BEE,
PS> Saturday, December 16, 1995
PS> Did I just hear a door open somewhere?
No. Administrative decisions do not establish precedent.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (810)
To: Mike Archer 18 Dec 95 13:29:10
Subject: Draft Dodgers
MA> Clinton is really making a fool out of the military: he
MA> said that he detested them.
Loathed was the word he used. But now it is his military
and he can use it for abstract purposes without merit or gain for
the US. Playing alchemist so to speak.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (811)
To: Forrest Lamont 18 Dec 95 12:48:10
Subject: Give it up!
FL> MG> To save long distance calls.
FL> MG> P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362
FL> Hey guy! all that author, copyright etc garbage just
FL> ain’t necessary pard. I just can’t see you anthologized
FL> with the likes of Safire, Wills and Ivens. Face it Matt
FL> what you post on the echos is on a par with the rest of us.
FL> It’s just opinion, diatribe, jesting, drivel – in other
FL> words just plain old everyday chit-chat. To presume
FL> otherwise is to court delusions of grandeur that would
FL> bring tears of joy to any Park Ave psychiatrist.;)
The purpose is the first sentence. The calls were costing
people money.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (812)
To: Michael Pilon 18 Dec 95 13:36:10
Subject: Oh No more bad Smoke new
MP> I had a patient the other day ( I am a dentist) . He is an
MP> epidemiologist with international connections. he is quite
MP> the anti-smoking advocate. I got into a brief discussion
MP> about this with him.
Smoking is now contagious? or is this the best we have for
“experts”?
MP> He is sending me some fact sheets and references about
MP> smoking and the harmful effects including scond hand smoke.
MP> He also told me a couple of things about the political and
MP> economic clout of the tobacco industry.
MP>
MP> Case 1: The World Bank met in Rome, they covered the
MP> economic fall out from smoking and it was shown that the
MP> damage from smoking causes a net loss of 400 billion from
MP> the public purse. it is a financial as well as a health
MP> problem.
It is amusing to see wild eyed statists, government owns the
people types, actually openly supporting a position that holds to
be true.
MP> Case 2 : The smoking industry is losing ground on the
MP> non-smoking ques- tion as regards restaurants and public
MP> buildings. But in a move dovetailing to the new found
MP> “Patriot” movement in the US the tobacco industry is now
MP> linking smoking to democracy, the right to private property
MP> ( LEster come on down ) and freedom of choice and even in a
MP> nose stretcher..freedom of speech. And with some success as
MP> the hoodwinked patriots link smoking to everything from
MP> Nazi Oppression ( A drivelist specialty) to New World Order
MP> globalism ( wat dat ?
They are very, very late-comers to that argument.
MP> Case 3: Apparently my patient is a close friend of the
MP> head of the Public Health dept of Johns Hopkins University.
MP> The former dean was a smoker but when the new one took over
MP> he felt it was a bit of hypocricy to allow smoking. So he
MP> banned smoking. So far so good …but wait, it seems the
MP> tobacco industry is a major donor to Johns Hopkins and
MP> …wait for it… they objected to this little piece of
MP> negative news. So a bit of pressure was put one the new
MP> Dean.. shurely Freedom of expression no doubt .
So you believe that banning smoking was support of freedom?
Please take the time to you explain your position in detail.
MP> But true to his convictions the Dean did not relent. So a
MP> meeting of the University senate was called along with
MP> members of the tobacco industry to try to reach a
MP> compromise ( I’ll stop twisting your arm if you agree
MP> to…) Before the meeting started the tobacco front man got
MP> up and announced a new $20 million dollar grant. Apparently
MP> it didn’t impress the dean and he in fact used it to
MP> persuade the majority of the senate that they were
MP> compromising their integrity by bowing to tobacco money.
The poor have integrity.
MP> But this is a family echo and I for one would not want to
MP> leave the impression that the tobacco industry is in anyway
MP> trying to influence the public about the safety of tobacco
MP> in any but honourable ways. The sad incident about 60
MP> minutes in no way should detract all freedom of the press
MP> advocates, from even thinking the tobacco industry is but
MP> acting in an honourable way.
MP>
MP> I rest my case and light a Marlboro.
You statists never change.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (813)
To: Ron Buttenham 18 Dec 95 14:18:10
Subject: THE APOCALYPSE!
RB> BS> art in the technology…… and what you and others suggest
RB> BS> is still a tad beyond the bend…
RB> I love The X-Files. I really do. Fun entertainment. But the
RB> show is encouraging all kinds of this crap to move into the
RB> realm of urban legend.
Move into? That is where the script writers are getting it.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (814)
To: Ron Allard 18 Dec 95 14:23:10
Subject: Washington’s Big Lies abo
RA> LIE #2
RA>
RA> Clinton said in his speech, “The only force capable of
RA> getting the job done is NATO. … If we’re not there, NATO
RA> will not be there. The peace will collapse. The war will
RA> reignite. The slaughter of innocents will begin again.”
RA>
RA> THE TRUTH: It would be more accurate to say that the United
RA> States and the Western European imperialist powers created
RA> this war. Until NATO is completely withdrawn, there is no
RA> chance for peace.
RA>
RA> The roots of the war never had anything to do with so-
RA> called ancient ethnic hatreds. The peoples of the Balkans
RA> had lived in peace for decades–because of socialism.
More correctly, not socialism because of Tito. He
slaughtered anyone who got out of line.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (815)
To: Frank Hay 19 Dec 95 21:09:10
Subject: It is not compassion
FH> MG> But now, in response to the “suffering” in Bosnia we are
FH> MG> sending in our troops to be killed. Lets start promoting a
FH> MG> new phrase. It isn’t compassion with other people’s lives.
FH> What then would be the proper demonstration of compassion
FH> for the children of Bosnia?
Where is it written there must be any form of demonstration?
Why single out children save to make the question emotional
rather than rational?
FH> MG> responsive government to limit their risk to that in the
FH> MG> oath, “against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” But here
FH> MG> we clearly have a case of surrogate compassion.
FH> Isn’t `ethnic cleansing’ an enemy of the U.S.?
I do not recall ever being attacked by a popular media catch
phrase.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (816)
To: Ed Mathis 20 Dec 95 23:50:10
Subject: More tobacco lies 2/3 01
Since my name is being taken in vain.
EM> LG> I remind the readers of this conference that when it was
EM> LG> first noted here that the Congressional Research Service
EM> LG> had criticized the EPA’s dishonest manipulation of the data
EM> LG> on the effects of second-hand smoke, despite your own
EM> LG> admission that you knew not a goddamned thing about the CRS
EM> LG> you immediately suggested that whoever they were a little
EM> LG> research would prove them to be an organization in the
EM> LG> employ of the tobacco industry.
EM> The first time Matt Giwer mentioned the article I said I
EM> was not familiar with the CRS and suspected its origins.
And when you learned it was a part of the Library of
Congress in my responding message just what did you do other than
post words you did not comprehend?
EM> I said what I said because the report sounded exactly like
EM> much of the typical tobacco industry propaganda that
EM> peppers the media. I made no excuses for my error when I
EM> later found out what the CRS was.
Rather you have yet to demonstrate the slightest ability to
deal with the concepts used in any of the analysis presented,
that means the math. I believe the term in innumerate which is a
parallel to illiterate.
EM> Unlike you and some others here, I admit when I’m wrong and
EM> don’t try to save face by lying or bluffing my way out of
EM> it.
EM>
EM> But when I’m right, I won’t back off and refuse to be
EM> intimidated by those that use questionable tactics, such as
EM> moderators that tear up the rules when they are involved in
EM> a hopeless battle.
EM>
EM> I did find, however, that my suspicions were justified.
EM>
EM> Here is a quote in the original message to Matt Giwer last
EM> year:
EM> =========beginning of quote:
EM> * Area: 241 ************************************************************
EM> Msg#: 1 Date: 29 Jun 94 19:26:00
EM> From: Ed Mathis
EM> To: Matt Giwer
EM> Subj: Congr. Research Service?
EM> ************************************************************************
EM> [some deleted]
EM> MG> The Congressional Research Service did the third and most
EM> MG> recent discreditation of the same group of studies.
EM> Sorry, Matt, with all due respect, without further
EM> information I cannot accept this at face value.
EM>
EM> I am totally unfamiliar with this group. Would you please
EM> give a bit more information about them? What is their
EM> heritage? How long have they been operating? Who are
EM> their main players? Do they have any ties at all to the
EM> tobacco industry? What other subjects do they involve
EM> themselves with?
EM>
EM> I would be very interested in seeing some of the specific
EM> “proof” they use to refute the conclusions of the EPA study
EM> and what criteria they used to reach this “proof.” I would
EM> like to see their opinion of the individual studies
EM> themselves, if they have any. If they cannot go into such
EM> detail, their discreditation must be very vacuous.
EM>
EM> Since you seem to be in possession of same, I am asking you
EM> to post some brief excerpts with annotations of sources
EM> where I can follow up on them for myself.
EM>
EM> [some more deleted]
EM>
EM> LET’S SEE SPECIFICS, MATT. Can you give some solid
EM> specifics, or can you only make sweeping generalizations
EM> and empty allegations?
EM> ================end of quotation
EM> After Matt [typically] subsequently refused to substantiate
EM> his claims with quotes and sources, I did some research of
EM> my own. Lo and behold — I found that the 2 economist
EM> authors of the CRS report had engaged in some serious
EM> manipulations of the truth.
I have to disagree. That is not what you did. You
demonstrated with what you posted that you are no able to
comprehend the information you were posting and nothing more.
And to top it off, their
EM> report WAS done indirectly for the tobacco industry (it was
EM> written to order for Congressman Bliley, Philip Morris’s
EM> main man in Congress and the recipient of more tobacco
EM> money than any other Congressman) and DID have an indirect
EM> lineage to the industry through Dr. Huber, whose paper was
EM> the basis of their report.
Which is another demonstration of innumeracy. By your lack
of reasoning, if NASA publishes a report showing the gravity
exists, it can not exist because NASA’s budget depends upon the
existence of gravity.
EM> The first CRS report WAS industry propaganda, though a
EM> little more roundabout than most. It was criticized in
EM> Congressional testimony and the two authors of the paper
EM> were severely castigated for attempting to propagate
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (817)
To: Ed Mathis 21 Dec 95 00:10:10
Subject: Smoking
On 12/19/95
from ED MATHIS
to LESTER GARRETT
on Smoking
in Fido-Debate
EM> As I have done.
EM> If you would like, I would be willing to post the entire
EM> text of the summary of the EPA study. In that summary you
EM> would see for yourself the words of both the EPA study and
EM> the CRS report unfiltered by anyone else’s interpretation.
EM> You would see that the CRS report misstated many of the
EM> basic points made in the EPA study.
I would like you to post some evidence you are capable of
understanding what you are posting. I know that is a lot to ask
but I would expect it to be fundamental.
EM> I have posted the sources for the Brownson and Stockwell
EM> studies several times so that anyone interested can verify
EM> that they are in total agreement with the EPA study,
How would you know?
EM> contrary to what the tobacco industry and the CRS
EM> economists say in their first report. If you need the
EM> sources again I will be happy to post them for you.
As above.
EM> Are you interested in the facts and the truth? If you are,
EM> it will only take you a couple hours’ work to verify
EM> everything I have told you. And I will help you with
EM> publication names, dates, and issues.
Rather than quote from the bible when you are in deep shit,
explain what you quote.
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