DC> MG> Voted for the Voted for the
DC> MG>Education Stupid Democrats Republicans
DC> MG>___—— —————- ————–
DC> MG>no high school diploma 61% 39%
DC> MG>high school graduates 47% 53%
DC> MG>some college 41% 59%
DC> MG>college graduates 45% 55%
DC> MG>Source: USA Today, Nov 9th, 1992
DC> Well, the way I see it, there is a marginal difference
DC> among the more educated. Less than 60%, while a majority,
DC> is not much of a majority. And based on these figures, I
DC> would say that to say the democrats are only voted for by
DC> the uneducated is a VAST overstatement.
DC> MG> You can see why the current Dem plan to exploit the
DC> MG>misunderstandings people have about the Rep reform program
DC> MG>appears to be succeeding. It appeals to the undereducated.
DC> And, according to your figures, very close to half of the
DC> other levels of education as well.
It appears you are attempting to give me a demonstration of
doublethink. Sorry, the contention was only that the least
educated were the only majority won by the DEMs that year. You
have changed nothing with this attempt.
®®юю R_9511 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_951103 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (943)
To: Diane Coghill 26 Oct 95 05:27:10
Subject: 1/4 Liar Clinton
—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (944)
To: Lester Garrett 26 Oct 95 05:32:10
Subject: Gun Control
LG> BK> Please list all the cases you know of in which a
LG> BK> guerrilla army ever defeated the national government
LG> BK> without outside assistance.
LG> MG> Please list all of the reasons why you believe there would
LG> MG> not be foreign assistance to rebels in the US. . . .
LG> Finally! The proper response to this red herring. Thank
LG> you, Matthew :-)*
Matthias, damn it.
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+++ююююю r_951104 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (384)
To: All 29 Oct 95 23:20:10
Subject: Greatest Story 01
The Greatest Story in History
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/29>
When I was a lad (I have waited decades to say that) the
press would always say the Second Coming would be the greatest
story in history. Today we cynically joke about the headline,
“World ends tomorrow, women and blacks to suffer most.” Perhaps
that cynicism is deserved as there is such a story and it has
only been covered on one series.
That series is “Archaeology” hosted by John Rhyse-Davies and
has only been shown in the US on The Learning Channel on cable
TV. In some six episodes it covered the discoveries of
archaeologists in Israel in recent years. In two of them it
objectively and in a very understated manner, removed the
foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and the Muslim religion.
None of this is a secret. It is in the technical literature
and if you visit Israel you can visit the sites. And yet that is
the extent of the coverage of the story.
In one episode the evidence of the origin of the Israelites
is quite carefully laid out. They always lived in the land of
Israel as herdsmen and came to power when people who lived in the
cities for some unknown reason lost power, possibly a war, most
likely insurrection by the herdsmen. To put it more bluntly, as
they always lived where they are there was no Promised Land.
Lacking a Promised Land, there was no Egypt, no Moses, no Ten
Commandments. The entire foundation for three religions has
vanished.
Lacking an Egypt and a Moses we are also lacking a Joseph
and an Abraham and a covenant with a god. Circumcision, the sign
of the covenant, becomes no different from any other ritual
sexual mutilation performed by primitives around the world. In
this everything in the first five books of the Bible, the
Pentateuch, the foundation of three religions vanishes.
In the other episode the Israelite pantheon is discussed.
The idols of Yahweh, Astarte (his consort, which is also in
inscriptions so there is no mistake), Baal and several other gods
are shown. And a common representation of all of them in one
idol is also shown. Again more bluntly, Yahweh God, God the
Father of Jesus who was the prophet before Mohammed was no more
than an Israelite version of Zeus, Jupiter or Odin.
All of this has been implied in the Bible itself and has
been known for centuries. In the last hundred years it has
rapidly become clear from other sources that there was no basis
whatsoever for the Egypt/Moses story: it being only slightly less
fanciful than the magic fruit, the talking snake and miraculous
flood of Genesis.
But now, in addition to negative evidence, the lack of
evidence for the truth of the Egypt/Moses story, we have positive
evidence of its falsity. Without first person interaction with a
god the Ten Commandments are barely more a footnote in the
history of human moral ideas. Without a Moses it is difficult to
give credence Mosaic Law as being much of anything other than a
curiosity.
When we learn for certain this Yahweh was just the first of
a pantheon of gods (thou shalt have no “other” gods before me, as
it always read and always meant) there is no credible basis to
argue, “This one is real, the rest were not.” Since this same
god that is God the Father of the Christian trinity it becomes
laughable to argue for its having either a son or a spirit as
other parts of the same idol. If there ever was a Jesus
certainly he was no more than a man as there is nothing more for
him to have a relation than a stone idol.
And while Christians focus on their Jesus, Muslims need to
consider that their Allah is the same stone idol. Their prophet
is a prophet of a stone and when they “akbar” their “Allah” it is
this primitive idol they are praising.
That is the story that is not being reported and it is more
profound than I have portrayed. It is easy to think about people
recognizing there is no god but it is another to examine that in
practice.
Next time you are driving through town pay attention to all
the churches and religious references you see. That is how
deeply we are enmired in the worship of one of the gods of the
Israelite pantheon. Listen to the political speeches and delete
the foundation of a god in everything said. Review every law
that exists to prevent an offense against god, remove the god and
try to fill in the blank.
The UFO conspiracy types hold the government suppresses what
it knows about UFOs because of the effect upon the people that
“we are not alone.” Yet right here for all to see and read about
is removal of the entire foundation for the religious beliefs of
over half of the world’s population. It is the biggest news
story of all time. It appears the cynicism about what is news
these days is clearly warranted.
Perhaps no one wants to be the one to break the story?
Perhaps it is just a matter of not wanting to put it bluntly?
But this is like leaving the coverage of a UFO landing on the
White House lawn to a “maybe, someday” article by the paper’s
science writer.
And if one wanted to continue to take religion seriously you
would think a picture of Yahweh (a photo of his idol) would be
front page news. It is like discovering a bust of Jesus or proof
positive the Shroud of Turin is authentic. A painting of
Mohammet would pale in comparison but these discoveries are not
news.
So while you have not read it in the papers or seen it on
the evening news, the greatest news story of all time (at least
of the last two millenia) is not being told. Now you know it.
The foundation of three major religions is now gone and it was
beneath the notice of the press. It makes you wonder what else
the media is not covering.
* * * * *
Further distribution is encouraged by the author.
To save long distance calls. One time permission to
reproduce this article is granted upon the following conditions.
All BBS reproduction is included and only an email notification
is requested. If you Xpost most everything, one notification
will do.
1) You send a proof copy if printed media to the address
below.
**
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (385)
To: All 30 Oct 95 05:41:10
Subject: Waco survivor story
“The Unseen Reality” by Livingston Fagan, Branch Davidian,
survivor of Waco, and federal prisoner, is available in the
following ways.
http://users.aol.com/mgiwer/ (and follow the menu)
http://users.aol.com/mgiwer3/fagan0.htm
(that is a zero. The segments are 1 thru 4 if you have bulk FTP
capability)
ftp://users.aol.com/mgiwer3/fagan.zip
The hypertext comes in four parts with minimal intrusion by the
markup so it is easily readable if each of the four parts is
saved as a set of four files for later reading.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (436)
To: Bob Klahn 28 Oct 95 08:23:10
Subject: 2ND AMENDMT/GUN CTRL
BK> MG> does go much deeper. As recommended by the authors of The
BK> MG> Bell
BK> I really don’t think that much of _The Bell Curve_. Which
BK> means it’s authors are not a terribly good reference as
BK> far as I am concerned.
Which means you have not read the book, so of what value is
your opinion?
BK> MG> Curve society needs simple laws that everyone can grasp.
BK> MG> Religion as myth is one of those simple things that are
BK> MG> needed to deal with all levels of intellectual ability.
BK> There are other reasons for simplicity other than the need
BK> to be understandable by the less intelligent.
BK>
BK> One of the best reasons it, a simpler system tends to last
BK> better, it has a longer MTBF.(mean time between failure
BK> for the non-technical reader.) The more complex a
BK> structure the more likely it is to have faults and errors.
BK> The ten commandments have survived thousands of years
BK> because they are simple. I doubt US copyright or patent
BK> law will survive a fraction that long.
BK>
BK> A second reason for simple rules it the greater ease of
BK> application. This may be no problem during times when
BK> things are going good, but most of history seems to be the
BK> story of bad times. In an emergency simple procedures can
BK> be followed faster, and with less error, than complex
BK> procedures. Just as a maching will have a single, big, red
BK> button you hit if something goes wrong, society has simple
BK> rules for when things go wrong. Shoot on sight is not
BK> acceptable for strangers walking down the street in normal
BK> times, even if they are carrying hunging rifles and
BK> packages. During war time shoot on sight may well be the
BK> rule for looters or any armed person in the wrong area
BK> without proper passwords or uniforms. The simplicity of
BK> the rule makes it easier to understand when there is no
BK> time for evaluation. Keep out of the red zone or die.
I do not suggest there is more than one reason. I simply
suggest that “thou shalt not kill” should be right up there in
some form in kindergarten. When they are old enough to make a
judgement at to when it is acceptable to kill then they are about
ten years past kindergarten. I will discuss it with them at that
time.
But there is no reason not to give them absolutes from
whatever source. I really can’t think of a reason to object to
them worshiping a snake god going into their drug running years
as long as The Serpent is against killing.
BK> MG> levels of intelligence. Even the simplest mind, the lowest
BK> MG> on the Bell Curve can understand right from wrong in terms
BK> MG> of myth.
BK> There are minds low enough that right and wrong are
BK> impossible to understand. Thirty or so years ago I had a
BK> neighbor who was a psychologist at the Dixon Ill. State
BK> School for the Mentally Retarded. He told me of some of
BK> his patients who were of such low intelligence they had no
BK> test that could measure it.
And the dumbest animals chew up the test and survive.
There is obviously more to the subject than you are
addressing.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (437)
To: Bob Klahn 28 Oct 95 08:44:10
Subject: BLAME
BK> “I take full responsibility” means “Don’t blame me.” J. Reno
BK> Aren’t you at least going to give credit to the one she
BK> was quoting, Ronald Reagan?
When she and Clinton when on TV and said it neither gave
credit.
I see no reason to impute credit where none was given.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (438)
To: Bob Klahn 28 Oct 95 08:46:10
Subject: CLINTON’S GUN BAN 01
BK> BK>> Please list all the cases you know of in which a
BK> BK>> guerrilla army ever defeated the national government
BK> BK>> without outside assistance.
BK> MG> Please list all of the reasons why you believe there
BK> MG> would not be foreign assistance to rebels in the US.
BK> The US is the only remaining super power.
That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee and an end to
the war in Bosnia.
BK> The US has a nuclear arsenal that can be used against any
BK> country aiding a rebellion.
Buy two cups of coffee.
BK> No other country with the ability to do anything of
BK> significance has any real reason to support the current
BK> crop of malcontents.
Bangladesh can start sending back those stingers mixed in
with their tons of heroin.
BK> Nobody with any sense wants to back a bunch of losers with
BK> no moral stand worth fighting a hopeless battle for.
You want favorable status with the winners. They write the
history and create the morality.
BK> I think that’s enough.
A good start but hardly sufficient.
BK> MG> Note France during the Colonial Revolution and the
BK> MG> Civil War. Note the government can’t keep hundreds of tons
BK> MG> of drugs a year out of the country. Note a man was charged
BK> MG> with violating the export laws for building functional AA
BK> MG> rockets in his basement and shipping them to Iran —
BK> MG> meaning, how much outside help do you think is needed?
BK> Let’s see, a handful of losers and malcontents against the
BK> US Marines, the Army, and all the National Guard units….
BK> a lot more than you will ever see.
The Army and the Marines are playing garrison troopers, all
800,000 of them total, all combined. 80,000 actually combat
troops.
The National Guard? Put them on the payroll and off of the
taxpayer rolls and guess how long they can stay on duty. About
one month as I see it, maybe two, never six.
BK> MG> To be consistent with your method of calculation, you
BK> MG> would count the entire family of militiamen (as you have
BK> MG> started with the entire US.)
BK> MG>
BK> MG> That puts the number for the MM closer to 420,000 (at
BK> MG> 2.2 children per family + spouse.)
BK> I’m not counting anyone not old enough to make their own
BK> decision, and those old enough are old enough to count in
BK> that 100,000. I’ll give you another 100,000, figuring a
BK> lot of the children and spouses will say ‘flake off, if
BK> you wanta play soldier and get yourself killed do it by
BK> your self.’ That figure should probably be reduced for
BK> those who have no such family.
You are obviously not married or unhappily so.
BK> MG> But that isn’t quite the point. If they are the
BK> MG> threat you consider them to be, there were zero of them
BK> MG> three years ago. It
BK> *YOU* consider them to be a threat. I don’t. I thought
BK> that was the point I was making to you. The militia
BK> movement is not a threat to the nation, just to the poor
BK> souls who get in their way before the military swats
BK> them.
You have to be talking about someone.
BK> MG> is difficult to estimate the growth rate with only two data
BK> MG> points. And of course the named causes for their coming
BK> MG> into existence are Ruby Ridge and Waco. What happens with
BK> MG> the next incident? and the next?
BK> If there is a next incident there will probably be a major
BK> investigation, with a trial even if there is no evidence
BK> of wrong doing, maybe some resignations, then the militia
BK> types will be satisified, claim victory, and fade away.
BK> The hard core will still be there, but they always were.
And if there is no such investigation? My prediction will
stand. You will note there have been none in the most egregious
cases so far.
BK> BK>> That also assumes the majority don’t care enough to resist
BK> BK>> the rebellion. A very poor assumption indeed.
BK> MG> People like you how dislike guns have already disarmed
BK> MG> yourselves and would disarm everyone else. What are you
BK> MG> folks
BK> I have a rifle that probably qualifies as an assualt
BK> rifle, and more ammunition than the average soldier
BK> carried into battle in WW2, in my home right now. Though I
BK> haven’t fired a rifle in a long time, I would probably get
BK> back into form in no time. I may not be as good as when I
BK> shot expert, but good enough. And a lot of my democratic
BK> friends also own guns.
You need to be prepared to use it. The military can not
help and will most likely sit it out.
**
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (439)
To: Gary Rimar 28 Oct 95 15:54:10
Subject: religious bigotry
GR> MG> What coincidence are you talking about? You may
GR> MG> remember the “school prayer” amendment Reagan promised and
GR> MG> gave exactly ONE speech supporting? Are you talking about
GR> MG> the currently offered “moment of silence” legislation?
GR> MG> That is the sum and substance of 15 years of everything the
GR> MG> “christian right” has gotten from the Reps.
GR> If that is, it sure wouldn’t seem that way from the way
GR> other politicions talk. Maybe that’s all they do.
I am willing to listen to anything they have gotten that is
more than talk. They are like the blacks and Democrats. They
give votes for lip service.
GR> MG> There are a lot of reasons to be against abortion that
GR> MG> are not Christian. Even atheists can be against it on
GR> MG> grounds of taste if nothing else. But what I said was,
GR> MG> that despite the positions of the candidates, they give
GR> MG> nothing to the CR.
GR> MG>
GR> MG> Christian Right = Attractive Nuisance
GR> MG>
GR> MG> Their votes are attractive, they are nuisance.
GR> Fine, if that’s your perspective. BTW: I am pro-family,
GR> pro-life, and pro-child. I am also pro-choice: I want a
GR> woman to have so many choices that abortion isn’t the one
GR> where she says, “I wish I could do better than this.”
The problem with carrying to term is that it is not fun —
ask anyone who has. Then the risk is that while there are
millions of unwanted fetus there are no unwanted children.
GR> GR> Gary (no group has a monopoly on bigotry, or a response
GR> GR> to it) Rimar
GR> MG> Is the pronunciation of your name anything like on Red
GR> MG> Dwarf?
GR> I don’t know what Red Dwarf is, so I can’t answer this one.
Check your PBS listings. It’s a good laugh. You will see
why I asked.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (445)
To: All 29 Oct 95 00:31:10
Subject: Bayer is brilliant
As you folks may know, the FDA has specifically prohibited
aspirin companies from advertising the heart attack avoidance
benefits of their product.
Guess what? I just saw a Bayer commercial making exactly
that claim. And I think it was brilliantly done.
The first shot if of the four types of pain relievers, the
major brands and the example for aspirin is a bottle of Bayer
aspirin. The voice asks asks, which one can reduce the risk of
heart attack by 50%? The second shot is in writing and voice
over, ONLY Bayer, and some more words.
I have only seen this ad once but it obviously got my
attention so I don’t have it memorized but I am reasonably
certain of those essentials.
Bayer is big enough to take on the US FDA. But it is
brilliant because it made a false statement. It said only Bayer
rather than only aspirin. And why is this brilliant? If the FDA
files a formal complaint it has to give a cause.
There are two forms of that complaint.
1) Bayer has falsely said only Bayer can when all aspirin
can.
or
2) Bayer has violated the FDA rule in advertising that
aspirin can reduce the risk of heart attack.
So immediately Bayer signs a consent agreement to cease and
desist using that commercial.
And the next commercial uses the wording of the FDA complaint.
“The FDA has said that all aspirin can reduce the risk of
heart attack and Bayer is the (usual sales pitch.)”
or
“The FDA has ordered us not to tell you about the heart
attack reducing benefits of Bayer aspirin …”
What they avoided doing was a specific violation of the
regulation by saying that all aspirin can do it so they have
invoked no penalties.
My hat is off to Bayer’s ad company on this one. It is
brilliant.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (446)
To: David Ingram 29 Oct 95 03:11:10
Subject: X-ians?
DI> MG> Right. Satanism exists. Ritual sacrifice, dogs
DI> MG> living with cats, real old testament stuff.
DI> And don’t forget beings with souls such as humans.
DI> Matamora, Mexico (spelling?) a few years ago had plenty of
DI> them.
Did they call the Ghostbusters?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (486)
To: All 25 Oct 95 00:18:10
Subject: Comite 4 Waco Just.rept
The Report of the Committee for Waco Justice is now
available several ways.
http://users.aol.com/mgiwer
scroll down and switch to it.
or directly
http://users.aol.com/mgiwer3/cwjwaco.htm
or most quickly
ftp://users.aol.com/mgiwer3/cwjwaco.zip
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+++ююююю r_951105 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (672)
To: Linda Terrell 31 Oct 95 21:16:10
Subject: Read you Constitution
On 10/29/95
from LINDA TERRELL
to LARRY THOMAS
on Read you Constitution
in Fido-Debate
LT> LT> Someone needs to tell Moynihan, his oath was to the
LT> LT> Constitution, not the UN charter.
LT> And the Constitution grants Congress the right to enter
LT> into legal treaties — of which the UN Charter is one.
But no treaty can supersede the Constitution of the US and
the oath is to the Constitution.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (712)
To: All 31 Oct 95 17:25:10
Subject: income is not property
Income is not property.
If income were property the federal government could not
take it without just compensation.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (713)
To: Lewis Clark 31 Oct 95 20:46:10
Subject: BATF
LC> LG> LG> With respect to the BATF Democratic Congressman John
LC> LG> LG> Dingell who, the last time I checked was not regarded as a
LC> LG> LG> right winger, has
LC> LC> Isn’t he a supporter of the NRA? I believe he is.
LC> LG> Yes, so? As I said,
LC> The NRA has been hijacked by right wingers. Everyone knows
LC> that.
Dingell is far from right wing. But you know that.
LC> LG> LG> . . .I was unaware that Democratic Congressman John Dingell
LC> LG> LG> was among the subscribers to what you have deliberately
LC> LG> LG> mischaracterized as perverted nonsense.
LC> LC> If Dingell DID use those words, then he must share the blame.
LC> LG> Share the blame for what? Your absurd propaganda?
LC> You know perfectly well what I am talking about. I can
LC> understand your discomfort with the role that the right
LC> wing and the NRA has played in encouraging domestic
LC> terrorism, but denying reality is no solution.
Since your fearless leader has abandoned his unsubstantiated
assertion that there was any connection it is not time you do so?
After all, when one is a bootlicker it behooves one to know
where the boot is else it will embarrass both you and the boot.
LC> The extreme activism of the NRA and similar groups has
LC> encouraged even more extreme elements to commit terroristic
LC> acts.
You forget that the current suspects are Army types. You
have the wrong target.
Therefore, these groups must share part of the
LC> responsibility for the deaths of innocent people.
You and Clinton both loathe the military.
The
LC> American public is aware of this, and that awareness has
LC> doomed any effort to repeal the Assault Weapons Ban.
Real quick now. Name the assault weapons used.
LC> Haven’t you wondered why the Republicans haven’t followed
LC> up on their promises to the gun groups? I doubt whether
LC> they really intended to attempt to implement the radical
LC> agenda sponsored by the NRA and others. Whether they did
LC> or not, the terrorist attacks surely have sabotaged that
LC> agenda.
Which is why the paranoids among us suspect the BATF of
doing it.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (714)
To: Grant Karpik 31 Oct 95 21:00:10
Subject: More Gulf War info
[reply made]
GK> Send reply to: Craig Janeway <[email protected]>
GK> From: Craig Janeway <[email protected]>
GK> <[email protected]>
GK> Dear Gulf War Veteran or Supporter:
You folks would have more supporters if you did not make
such “interesting” claims.
GK> There are about 10 to 18 different biologicals shipped to
GK> Saddam Hussein and made in the United States in Texas and
GK> Florida. (Riegle Report list of Biological shipped to the
GK> Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission). The disease(s)
GK> unfortunately are communicable and affecting not only the
GK> GW veterans but the spouses and children.
Even if you are claiming “diseases” were shipped, it is
unclear what “diseases” can cause ..
A very high
GK> number of miscarriages and congenitally deformed children
GK> are being reported.
these symptoms.
For your edification, “biologicals” are not diseases.
Unless you are claiming they were used to manufacture diseases
(in which case Iraq is at least two generations ahead of the rest
of the world) then you have no basis for this statement.
There are immense political and
GK> criminal implications as it has been illegal under the
GK> Geneva Convention Regulations of 1972 to make, experiment
GK> with, distribute or sell, germ warfare.
Can you NAME the active diseases that were sold? shipped?
Can you cite from reputable source the symptoms you ascribe?
GK> DR’s.’ Garth and Nancy Nicolson have isolated one of the
GK> U.S. man-made germ warfare biological agents at the M.D.
GK> Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas. (Made in Houston,
GK> TX. and Boca Raton areas). The biologicals were tested,
GK> according to the Nicolsons, in the Texas Department of
GK> Corrections on the death row inmates. There appears to be a
GK> treatment, if caught early, however it is not a cure for
GK> those suffering with the Mycoplasma incognitus infection.
GK> According to the Journal of American Medical Association
GK> (Feb. 22, 1995) the recommended treatment is doxycycline
GK> (tetracycline) 100mg., two times a day for 10 days. Up to
GK> six courses of treatments have been required. For those who
GK> cannot take Tetracycline, Cipro has been found to be
GK> effective. GW servicemen/women and their families and
GK> significant others may get their blood tested at no charge.
GK> To make arrangements call 713-792-7484.
Fascinating. Now what is the name of the disease?
GK> (2. Bring criminal charges against those involved in the
GK> development, experimentation, sale and transfer of weapons
GK> of (germ and biological warfare) mass destruction.
Mass? Hardly very effective were they.
GK> Just because you did not serve, does not mean you cannot
GK> get the disease. It is communicable to the general
GK> population and can be transmitted via sex and perspiration
GK> as it is airborne. Animals can also be carriers. This is
GK> not a story of the past but one that will haunt us in the
GK> future. The presenting symptoms are as follows: chronic
GK> fatigue, night sweats, severe joint pains, shortness of
GK> breath, vision and hearing problems, rashes, benign and
GK> malignant tumor growths, and neurological problems leading
GK> to paralysis and death.
What is the name of the disease?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (715)
To: Delores E Rowe 31 Oct 95 21:14:10
Subject: No commodities
DR> It may cost money, BOTOH, it’s a big waste of money to have
DR> extra crops just plowed back into the fields because of
DR> market saturation. Every year, the farmers about 40 miles
DR> from here plow back TONS of potatoes, onions, corn, etc
DR> because it doesn’t pay them to dig them up and take them to
DR> market. There are local gleaning clubs that go out and
DR> gather some of the stuff, but tons of it go to waste.
DR> There are a lot of hungry, needy folks out there. Soup
DR> kitchens are crying out for food stuffs all the time. It
DR> just seems so wrong.
You mean it seems wrong that the hungry won’t join
“gleaning” clubs? Or do they only eat food canned or frozen?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (717)
To: Scott Mitchell 31 Oct 95 21:19:10
Subject: religious bigotry
SM> MG> There are a lot of reasons to be against abortion that
SM> MG> are not Christian. Even atheists can be against it on
SM> MG> grounds of taste if nothing else. But what I said was, that
SM> MG> despite the positions of the candidates, they give nothing
SM> MG> to the CR.
SM> Do you think all athiests are evil? That they have no
SM> morals? It seems many think that way… if you don’t
SM> worship a religion, then you don’t respect the morals a
SM> religion provides.
Morals from religion are the ideas of men masked as the
dictates of a god.
Athiests may object to abortion because
SM> they think the fetus is living and that killing is wrong.
SM> When we stereotype and make assumptions and hasty
SM> conclusions, we are opening the door for ignorance…
What is it you are really trying to say?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (718)
To: Scott Mitchell 31 Oct 95 21:21:10
Subject: Response to RJR tobacco a
SM> PS>VB> They are not totally innocent. But they are not the ONLY
SM> PS>VB> folks to blame, either.
SM> PS>Maybe, but No tobacco industry – no problem.
SM> Did you know that the government makes some countries buy
SM> US tobacco in order to trade with the US???
Which countries and by what method?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (719)
To: Bob Sakowski 31 Oct 95 21:43:10
Subject: WEAVER
BS> BK> Do you recall how long it was between the trial date he
BS> BK> didn’t show up for, and the day of the gun battle? I don’t
BS> BK> recall, but I do believe it was a fairly long time, and he
BS> BK> was notified to turn himself in. At that time he could have
BS> BK> still handled it within the system.
BS> Try a year and a half…….. He WAS notified…. he chose
BS> to ignore for 18 months….. while the FBI was not without
BS> sin in this sorry event, Weaver knows on whose head the
BS> blame for the deaths….. ALL the deaths, sits…… and if
BS> there is a judgement day, he will pay the price for his
BS> arrogance and stupidity.
Perhaps you didn’t pay attention to the hearing?
Regardless of who caused it, the FBI showed up and killed
them before they knew the FBI was there.
That is called an execution in anyone’s book.
If you feel that is the way things should be done, then you
have chosen your side.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (720)
To: All 31 Oct 95 22:47:10
Subject: Weaver Execution
The Weaver Execution
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/31>
I have taken a while to write on the Senate hearing on the
Ruby Ridge incident. If you followed it there was quite a bit to
obscure the crucial salient issue. Sarah Weaver was executed.
Through all of the detail and all of the facts of the case
and all of the speculation surrounding it one thing is clear.
There was an execution.
Discarding all of the material that has no relevance to this
central issue, the FBI showed up, attempted to execute two people
and in the process executed a third. Although the FBI had plans
to announce their presence, they had not done so. Although the
FBI had plans to demand a surrender, they had not done so.
They got in place and without telling the Weavers they were
there, opened fire.
Given the way the press covered the story you would imagine
there was the kind of scene you expect on TV and in the movies.
Someone with a bullhorn saying something like, “This is the FBI.
You are under arrest. Come out with your hands up.”
Rather events at Ruby Ridge were like the police getting
behind their cars for protection and opening fire. If the word
execution does not fit, then try assassination. That there was a
sniper doing the killing with a rifle makes it all the more
appropriate.
There is no practical difference between what happened at
Ruby Ridge and the police shooting a suspect in the back without
attempting an arrest. Good intentions are fine. There is a
rather famous road paved with them.
The FBI and the Senate panel did their best to put a
different spin on it. They treated it more like the expected TV
scenario had actually taken place, or that the intention was good
enough, and failed to address the missing action. That is after
the fact complicity in the spin doctoring.
There is a purported police assassination squad operating in
Los Angeles. A movie was made on the theme a few years ago.
This is no different unless good intentions can excuse identical
actions and results. This is not Dirty Harry Calaghan; this is
Paul Kersey’s Death Wish, except it was done by the police.
Perhaps it is a mixture of TV and the movie “justice” of
those characters that makes this palatable. The excuses for this
execution are in the “he asked for it” style. It is the “blame
the victim” or “she was asking to be raped” mindset.
This country walks a very crooked line in its concept of
justice and law. In the common mind, what the person deserves
depends upon the allegation. A man never leaving a monestary
since he was 14 should the shot if accused of child abuse. We
can try the corpse later.
Child abuse worked in Waco even though never proved at the
time and still having only one questionable allegant to this day.
At Ruby Ridge the claim was that a marshal was murdered while an
arrest was attempted even though there was no arrest attempt.
That is enough to tip public opinion in favor of a Paul Kersey
style execution. Never mind there was not enough evidence of it
to stand in court.
The framework within which facts are viewed is more
important than the fact themselves. “I come to bury Caesar, not
to praise him,” turned the crowd against the man who
singlehandedly ended the democracy of Rome and lead the way to
centuries of tyranny by emperors. In Ruby Ridge, ignore the
facts. Think of it as dealing with a cop killer.
Of course there are always extenuating circumstances but
there were none given in any of the testimony that would relate
to showing up and shooting without the crucial announcement of
being there intervening. The nearest claim is that there was an
attempt to fire on a helicopter, a quite strange thing for a
Special Forces, Vietnam veteran to even think about. But even
then, that makes only one person a target until he stops
shooting. It is not carte blanche to kill everyone in sight.
In any event, taking away all the excuses and all the finger
pointing, what we have is a federal execution. It is not a
pleasant thing to realize but then murder is never pleasant.
* * * * *
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (721)
To: All 31 Oct 95 23:32:10
Subject: Lets kill some Balkans
Lets kill some Balkans
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/31>
It appears to the be destiny of the United States to go into
the Balkans, to meet them, and to kill them. This has been the
desire of two presidents. Finally this President appears to have
found a way to get into the mess.
Three years ago I started researching the area hoping to put
together some historic perspective on the region as related to
our involvement. I got back about 150 years and found nothing
touching upon the common European history save for the start of
World War I. That only happened because of all Europe was
involved in mutual defense treaties and those changed every few
years so there was no particular connection between which side
they were on at the time and who started the war.
At least that far back, the history of the region is about
as generally stimulating and relevant to the world as the
political history of the city of Bogata, Columbia, perhaps less
so. And given the general history of the region going back to
the Roman occupation, there is only one clear way to keep these
people from killing each other. That is the the method Tito
used. Making the penalty for breaking the peace worse than any
possible gains.
That means the methods of the Red Army or the Korean Army
are better suited to keep the peace than the US Army. But
regardless of the method used, keeping the peace means in some
manner making the penalty for breaking the peace worse. That
means if US troops are there, they are there to kill people.
Now the UN tradition of peace keeping has been to run away
when the shooting starts. So if the US is part of a UN force,
there is no likelihood any American soldier will be injured save
by accident. The UN has changed a bit from its days of mass
slaughter in Katanga.
This President has some how managed to get the nine nations
(do you believe nine?) that have to agree to this peace to agree
to negotiate only if the US has tens of thousands of troops on
the ground. A negotiator like this deserves a long rest in a
safe think tank some place where he can not harm himself or
others. The agreement we have, if it can be called that, is that
maybe they will agree to a peace if the US is there to kill
people who violate it.
However we are not dealing with people who want peace. It
is not secret that one side will shell its own people in hopes of
getting the “peace keepers” to punish the other side. One of the
Canadian commanders, Rose I believe, confirmed this, in fact
threatened to leave because of it.
There is no indication we are dealing with people who have
anything like a normal western European view of life and war.
And our President wants to send our troops into this mess under
the command of the UN whose war office closes as the end of the
working day and which gives orders that permit hundreds of troops
to be taken hostage without a shot being fired. The flag of the
should be laurel wreathes surrounding a bullseye.
Killing Balkans with air strikes looks good on TV but it
really doesn’t kill all the many. Now, if this agreement works
out, we will be in a position to kill them up close and in
greater numbers. Forget the fact that no amount of killing short
of genocide will bring lasting peace to this area.
The only way to lasting peace is that of Tito, permanent and
total occupation and retaliation that makes breaking the peace of
Rome look like a pacifist response. If this happens there is no
way around it. We are going to be there for centuries, for the
foreseeable future, certainly beyond the lifetime of anyone alive
today. We are going to adopt the determined viciousness of the
armies we abhor.
Why will we do this? Because if we do not, there will be no
peace; the killing will continue. And if there will be no peace,
why are we going there in the first place?
So the question is not whether we have a national or a
humanitarian interest in the region. Perhaps we do, perhaps we
don’t. I do not think so but we can debate that for years.
What we have to address is the kind of military, the kind of
country we will necessarily become if we are to stop the killing.
That is not the kind of country I wish to be a part of. It is
not the kind of military I want this country to be known for.
I don’t think we are ready for any of the consequences of
becoming involved in the Balkans. I don’t think we are ready to
become a county of either targets or murderers. There is no way
we can keep the peace in the Balkans without one or the other.
* * * * *
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (722)
To: Linda Terrell 31 Oct 95 23:39:10
Subject: Ammerica and the Balkans
LT> New took an otah to take orders from Officers. He has
LT> not been ordered to do anything illegal since all US troops
LT> working with the UN are NOT under “foreign” command — they
LT> still answer to the President of the US.
He took an oath in which the Constitution came first. That
Constitution establishes the only manner in which officers can be
appointed over him.
As for your final assertion, that is not what is planned.
The field commander will be a UN appointed commander. That means
the constitutional chain of command is broken.
LT> SD> nsfer to another unit, “anywhere in the world as long as it
LT> SD> is in an American uniform with American officers.” Is he
LT> SD> right that American soldiers who don U.N. blue do not enjoy
LT> SD> the same legal status and protection under the Geneva
LT> SD> Conventions if taken as prisoners of war?
LT> The UN DOES NOT HAVE A UNIFORM!! All regulars wear the
LT> uniform of their own country and add only a blue helmet and
LT> blue armband.
Insignia or device. Excuse me. Does wearing those devices
mean they are NOT part of the UN (peacekeeping) Force? If not,
pray tell what does it mean? What is a “force” if it is not
prepared to kill on orders? And if so, in what manner does it
differ from an army?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (723)
To: Lester Garrett 1 Nov 95 04:48:10
Subject: This ‘N That
http://users.aol.com/mgiwer/
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* RM 1.3 01261 * What the little President saw and heard on his travels-Grimm
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (788)
To: Lewis Clark 31 Oct 95 00:21:10
Subject: BATF
On 10/22/95
from LEWIS CLARK
to LESTER GARRETT
on BATF
in Fido-Debate
LC> LG> With respect to the BATF Democratic Congressman John
LC> LG> Dingell who, the last time I checked was not regarded as a
LC> LG> right winger, has
LC> Isn’t he a supporter of the NRA? I believe he is.
LC> LG> described the BATF as jackbooted American fascists. I was
LC> LG> unaware that Democratic Congressman John Dingell was among
LC> LG> the subscribers to what you have deliberately
LC> LG> mischaracterized as perverted nonsense.
LC> If Dingell DID use those words, then he must share the blame.
There is no blame in the truth. In addition his son
published an article on the rather exact parallels between the
Nazi extermination of the Warsaw ghetto and the events in Waco
down to the same dates fifty years later.
Perhaps it was an unannounced reenactment on the part of the
government?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Debate – (789)
To: Larry Thomas 31 Oct 95 00:24:10
Subject: Born Once!
LT> These so-called Christians need to be reminded, that Jesus
LT> would not take money from the poor and elderly, and give it
LT> to the rich. I hope they do not have wait until the Last
LT> Judgement.
Nor is it hoped you need have to wait for your perverted
superstition never happens that neither did he take from the rich
and give to the poor and elderly.
Charity is giving not taking. Taking is theft regardless of
the worthiness of the cause.
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* RM 1.3 01261 * Don’t burn our liberties to protect our symbols.
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