Documents

Giwer, controv 9-1994

JH> JH> Yeah, when do you predict the next patriot take a shot at
JH> JH> it?

JH> MG> I do not make such predictions. Should there be a
JH> MG> revolution the head of state is never a target. Try and
JH> MG> fail and he will redouble his efforts. Try and succeed and
JH> MG> his successor will be worse. You need a reliable and
JH> MG> unthreatened head of state to surrender on both sides.
JH> MG>
JH> MG> That is the real reason the leaders are kept safe from
JH> MG> assassination.

JH> I wasn’t talking revolution. That would be throwing the
JH> baby out with the bath water. Only two more years!

Only two more years until we get the Republican variant on
the same theme. Sorry, I have seen it too many times to think
the changes with parties is anything more than cosmetic. They
are both after our rights, simply in different areas. The more
we switch parties in control the faster we lose them — rather
the faster it becomes intolerable and we have to do something
drastic to get them back.

®®юю R_9410 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_941001 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (144)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Sep 94 02:05:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou
—
RM 1.3 01261 ю The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (145)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Sep 94 02:09:10
Subject: Aliases

JH> MG> On the other hand, if you make it too secure they give up
JH> MG> and beat the information out of you. Your choice.

JH> So if they are that desperate they will have no idea
JH> whether you are telling the truth or not. Zap your key
JH> file and tell them it was the classic middle finger GIF.
JH> Screw ’em! If they are going to kill you, they are going
JH> to kill you anyhow.

From the top. The value of the information determines the
level of effort applied to obtaining it. There is no way for one
or a few persons to get away with very high security. It will
required a concerted effort by hundreds of people sending even
birthday greetings encrypted. An individual worth the effort
must send many birthday greetings.

There is more to using encryption than simply using it.
Consider if you send 50 clear messages a week and one encrypted.
That certainly narrows down the problem and the decision on where
to apply the time and effort. Doctrine is required and it is not
my field. Perhaps we will find a volunteer with the requisite
knowledge.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Barney Must Die!
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (146)
To: Linda Terrell 28 Sep 94 02:23:10
Subject: another Vietnam?

LT> MG> LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT> MG> 1) There is nothing to be positive about.
LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT> Oh yes there is. Clinton pisses off the Right.
LT> MG>
LT> MG> Because the right does not like fascists.

LT> Of course not — can’t have someone encroaching on the
LT> Right’s territory.

The US implementation of Fascism is the same as in Italy and
Germany, total regulation of business. That is the
implementation of the definition.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Man is the only animal that laughs and has a Congress.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (147)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Sep 94 02:30:10
Subject: BIG BANG VARIATION

JH> MG> It hypothesizes it to be nothing in particular. It only
JH> MG> only a search for additional mass to cause the forms and
JH> MG> rotation rates of galaxies that we observed.

JH> The topic was expansion of the universe and possible
JH> eventual collapse.
JH>
JH> Yours is a very stingy answer from one who purports to have
JH> a degree in physics. Granted there are many branches of
JH> physics, but whatever branch is yours you ought to be able
JH> to do better than this. I am not a physicist and I can do
JH> better myself! Here goes…
JH>
JH> We observe the rate at which far-away galaxies are receding
JH> and from this we have determined the rate of expansion of
JH> the universe. IOW, we have determined the velocity of
JH> expansion.
JH>
JH> Now… if there is to be an eventual collapse this velocity
JH> must be less than the “escape velocity” required for all
JH> matter in the universe to escape the mutual attraction of
JH> all other matter due to gravity.

JH> The term missing from the equation is the total mass of the
JH> universe.

Missing from the measurements (observation) is an change in
the expansion, that is, if there is ever to be a collapse (which
is required by nothing) then there has to be a rate of slowing
down. Even if there is no collapse in the future there still has
to be some slowing down IF the universe has a significant amount
of mass in it compared to its size.

I do not know the actual measured results but over the last
fifty years and to the precision of our ability to measure there
has been exactly zero observed decrease in the velocity of
expansion. That indicates the mass of the universe is trivial.

However, you have not addressed the most serious reason why
there is a search for missing mass. There is no way to explain
the structure of the galaxies we observe unless they are from 10
to 100 times more massive than the stars we can observe suggest.
That includes our own galaxy.

Consider a spiral galaxy such as our that has been around
for billions of years. There is a distinct spiral structure.
Yet the rate of rotation for each star varies with distance from
the center. It is like discovering the planets in our solar
system have maintained an identifiable spiral for billions of
years. Yet there is no such structure.

That there is such a structure in galaxies is completely
unexplainable without that missing mass.

Now that as a layman you have taken over the discussion how
did you miss the most critical question, that galaxies as we know
them can not exist as they are by everything we know?

JH> Scientists have somehow come up with a working value for
JH> the total mass of observable matter, stars, gases within
JH> and between galaxies, all matter readily observable or
JH> detectable.
JH>
JH> They call this ‘bright matter” as a term of convenience.
JH>
JH> They do not see enough “bright” matter to cause an eventual
JH> collapse.

By a factor of 100 or more.

JH> What is now sought is the total mass of “dark matter,”
JH> matter not so readily observable. This is the factor in
JH> the equation (actually merely a part of the total mass)
JH> which can tip the balance toward eventual collapse.

No one knows what this dark matter might consist of.

JH> Neutrinos are a very, very numerous form of fairly dark
JH> matter, and are included as such. Again you are reminded
JH> that “dark matter” is a term of convenience, but it is one
JH> which is used by physicists themselves.

All particles are completely dark by definition. As for
your reminder I am well aware of what is really meant by the
term.

JH> Our present high energy physics model of matter and the
JH> universe predicts there are an incredible number of
JH> assorted types of neutrinos zinging about.

Six types actually of which two might have mass but that has
largely been abandoned after the one Russian report of mass that
could not be duplicated. In absence of that measurement,
neutrinos have zero mass as has been the evidence since they were
first discovered.

JH> This is no longer thought to be the case, although the
JH> mass, if present, is incredibly small.

You missed the one measurement being discarded.

JH> But there are so many neutrinos that it only requires
JH> assigning a very tiny mass to each to tip the balance as
JH> far as total mass in the universe and thus the difference
JH> between eternal expansion and eventual collapse.

Save there is no measurable decrease in the rate of
expansion.

JH> Again… the neutrinos in question, and any other matter
JH> existing, but not yet readily detectible is conveniently
JH> called “dark matter.”

And you would discard the possibility that it might be all
the billions of first generation stars? Why? You do know what
first generation stars are do you not? They were the most likely
candidates but calculations show they would have only 1% of the
mass needed. Adding in the concentrations of hydrogen that did
not become massive enough to become stars gets us up to about 3%
of what is required.

JH> Now, please provide specific refutation, without quibbling,
JH> defining all terms used if they seem to differ from my
JH> usage, no guile, no double-speak, etc. I have written in
JH> the fragmented paragraphed style above to invite comment on
JH> each section as you might choose.

I am not interested in refutation only in clearing up the
false assumptions you are making and in pointing out what you
have overlooked which are the current direction of the research.
I also find it interesting you have missed the most serious
scientific interest in missing mass, that galaxies as we observe
them can not exist if our knowledge of gravity is correct.

Whether or not the universe ever collapses is trivial
compared to that concern.

JH> MG> * RM 1.3 01261 * Even I am impressed with me.

JH> Obviously I’m not!

And you can read why the feeling is mutual.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgins
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (148)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Sep 94 02:53:10
Subject: Haiti revelation

JH> MG> Cedras was planning to export his form of government to the
JH> MG> US.

JH> And in doing so interefered with Clinton’s plans to do the
JH> same?

Clinton was more concerned that the general public could not
tell the difference between the two products.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (149)
To: Linda Terrell 28 Sep 94 02:55:10
Subject: Invading Haiti

LT> MG> The soldiers I saw on camera were pissed off that they
LT> MG> were not permitted to stop it by direct orders. While you
LT> MG> are asking Billie Jeff about those 15 rounds of ammunition
LT> MG> you might also ask him about his orders.

LT> The “15 rounds of ammo” is a myth. Pentabon Brass called
LT> Limbaugh to tell him it was a lie. No sildier went out
LT> with less than 200 rounds and often much more.

A public relations officer from Pope AFB called him and said
that HE had more than 200 rds. He also said that the late
arrivals may have had less as they were not expected to face the
brunt of the fighting if any. He was not able to say
definitively just how many rounds they had.

I heard the PR officer’s call, the OJ garbage busted the
first two hours. It was said that two of the troopers actually
on the planes that were turned around called to report the number
of rounds they had. Anyone can call and say they are anyone and
on passing a sanity check by the call screener they can get on.

However, no Pentagon Brass called him and the story stands
as a disagreement between people who were involved in the
operation.

LT> MG> . The best I heard was to get Cedras out of power. That
LT> MG> is scheduled for next month. So what are our troops doing
LT> MG> there?

LT> to make sure he does it this time.

Why waste the money? Invade on the 16th if he is not gone.
At the moment we have usurped control of the country in violation
of the laws of that country — again.

LT> MG> The history of this president and the military is that
LT> MG> they die under his command because he will not support them
LT> MG> with the equipment they need.

LT> another myth. The equipment not sent to Somalia was
LT> on the *advice* of Pentagon Brass. Blame them.

It was the decision of Les Aspin, the man HE nominated to
Secretary of Defense. That was a political appointment. Clinton
is responsible for all of his appointments as they serve at his
pleasure and have no civil service protection. The buck stops in
the Oval Office and it really does get there.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю One Finger is all a real American needs.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (150)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Sep 94 03:03:10
Subject: Invading Haiti

JH> If we invade, it will be because Clinton knew nothing of
JH> the personal characteristics of Cedras and has fallen for
JH> the line of Aristide. The first rule is to know your
JH> “enemy.”

It is simpler than that. He was buying the Black vote.
Democrat foreign policy is always governed by their internal
political policy. That is why Jim Wright was in Nicaragua
supporting Ortega and why Ted Kennedy was soliciting Gorbechov’s
assistance against Reagan.

There needs be a change in the definition of traitor.

JH> Even Jimmy Carter, inept as he was, is far ahead of Clinton
JH> in knowing this simple fact. This is what allowed him to
JH> actually negotiate a settlement which Clinton apparently
JH> did not even consider trying.

For the second time by the simple expedient of talking to
the other party. It appears the other parties will not return
calls from Billie Jeff. They obviously have more important
things to do, like sorting their sock drawer.

JH> It is just more basic Clinton character being revealed…
JH> the force of law, the force of power, are the only tools he
JH> knows to make people do his will.

Only force is simple enough for him to grasp.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (151)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 28 Sep 94 03:08:10
Subject: ONLY IN AMERICA

BS> MG> Consider the impossible has happened.

BS> MG> We now have a president that makes Jimmy Carter look good.

BS> MG> What a country!

BS> I was just reading “God’s Bullies” a 1982 book by Perry
BS> Deane Young.
BS>
BS> He has a section on Jimmy Carter. He mentions Roslyn, or
BS> whoever, saying she would never serve hard liquor in the
BS> White House. Later he quotes a reporter saying Carter was
BS> drinking a double martini a plane trip.

In the south women are the arbiters of the family’s
morality. The men are never expected to agree with them save at
home. It is the more traditional family relationship.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Are you posting with your eyes open or using The Force.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (152)
To: Ian Lin 28 Sep 94 03:10:10
Subject: weather

IL> No, our summers ease into autumn and then winter. First
IL> snow usually doesn’t fall until November or sometimes the
IL> end of October around here. Right now, temperatures are
IL> still from 14 to 22 C (57 F to 71.6 F).

You high is four degrees lower than my morning low. Your
current low is my expected high in Jan and Feb. I can also add
that Canadians go swimming in the Gulf in the middle of winter
and are not bothered by the temperature.

Winter here is scheduled for Jan and Feb but it is barely a
moderate autumn.

IL> MG> You need to study meteorology also. Compare your
IL> MG> temperatures to and inland city like Kansas City in
IL> MG> summer.

IL> I compared the temperatures very well, I think. LA has a
IL> large body of water beside it and so does Kingston.

Which body of water do you have that you consider equivalent
to the Pacific Ocean?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (169)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 28 Sep 94 13:46:10
Subject: ANIMAL INTELLIGENCE

BS> MG>IL> Did you check the source I gave you for animal intelligence?

BS> MG> No and I was not particularly interested in it.

BS> Proof of animal intelligence, even if only very limited?

BS> Pangborn
BS> von Busse
BS> Grimsley
BS> Scheidt
BS> Summers

You do realize that most people would include you is a list
with them under a different set of criteria.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю I don’t call 911.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Dick Roebelt 28 Sep 94 13:48:10
Subject: Declaration of Independe

DR> MG>DR> MG> For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

DR> MG>DR> MG> and yet we do not tax anyone who does not live within the 50
DR> MG>DR> MG>states as they do not have elected representation.

DR> MG>DR> Matt, who told you that???

DR> MG>DR> You of all people should know better.

DR> MG> Puerto Ricans and natives of US possessions do not pay any
DR> MG>direct taxes and get a full range of welfare benefits. If you
DR> MG>stay out of the 50 states for a year you do not pay direct taxes.
DR> MG>Can you come up with a contrary example? The exception to this
DR> MG>was DC under the presumption of the Congressional DC was
DR> MG>sufficient for representation.

DR> They don’t pay INCOME tax (ala 1040 etal). The rest of
DR> the federal taxes (excises) are basically the same as found
DR> in every state.

Excise taxes and duties are on things not on people. Thus
the people do not pay taxes. At best some level of the selling
chain collects taxes for the government very like a sales tax.
People do not pay them.

You may consider this a nit pick but it is a critical
distinction even in the constitution given the art 1 sec 8
revenue raising powers as opposed to the 16th amendment and the
inherent conflict between the two regarding taxation of
individuals directly.

DR> If you read some of the newer amendments to the tax code
DR> (in the past 5 years) each contains language that defines
DR> the territories/posessions as a “state” for the purpose of
DR> the tax code.

And? Puerto Ricans still do not pay federal taxes. It does
operate as a state and there are local taxes but those are
established by locally elected officials not by the federal
appointed “governor” or whatever he is called these days, the
position might have even been abolished.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (174)
To: Willie Martin 28 Sep 94 14:11:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

On 09/26/94 WILLIE MARTIN to MATT GIWER on Flood / Noah’s Ark

WM> What’s the matter Matt are you trying to get rid of me. You
WM> know full well that if I posted the Noah’s Flood study that
WM> I have made they would kick me off the echo.

Even I can’t get kicked off of this echo. What is stopping
you? (Right Dr. Hill?)

Is that what
WM> you really want. I know that there are some Jews in the
WM> Political Echo that would like to do that to me. But I
WM> don’t really think you do, as we are both fans of Rush. Or
WM> at least I didn’t think you did.

Why would you take it personally? There has been more flood
crap posted here over the years than you could possibly post. It
is also unlikely you could post anything new.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (175)
To: Charles Hill 28 Sep 94 14:11:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

On 09/26/94 WILLIE MARTIN to MATT GIWER on Flood / Noah’s Ark

WM> What’s the matter Matt are you trying to get rid of me. You
WM> know full well that if I posted the Noah’s Flood study that
WM> I have made they would kick me off the echo.

Even I can’t get kicked off of this echo. What is stopping
you? (Right Dr. Hill?)

Why would you take it personally? There has been more flood
crap posted here over the years than you could possibly post. It
is also unlikely you could post anything new.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (229)
To: All 30 Sep 94 01:21:00
Subject: THE GOLD WATCH

The Gold Watch
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/30>

Florida has, or rather had, an “impact fee” of $295 for cars
brought into the state from another state. The State Supreme
Court found this fee to be unconstitutional and the money
refunded. And immediately the state claimed it would harm
education if the money had to be refunded.
Ah, the Gold Watch approach. It is not an obvious Gold
Watch so let me go a step further. When the state was promoting
the lottery the deal was that the revenues would go to schools.
As soon as there was a lottery and the revenues started coming in
the state took the school budget, subtracted lottery revenues and
appropriated the difference.
Rather than the implication that the lottery would be over
and above the minimum budget the schools got no more and other
projects were funded. These are unrelated to education. Were
the people had by the politicians? Is the bear Catholic?
Fine but now that the threat of having to refund the fees,
$295 million or so, the state is saying what? You have three
seconds to guess. Time is up. The schools will be harmed. If
you did not guess that you need to go back to square one in your
knowledge of politics.
The state Supreme Court decision was news on the 28th as was
the state claim that it would harm the schools. On the 29th in
the morning there were the first statements from the schools as
to the harm. By the evening news on the 29th there were human
interest stories as to a teacher having $150 to to spend “perhaps
to help this immigrant child learn English.” Are there any tears
no jerking out there?
Look at the genesis of school funding as outlined above.
Sounds to me that if the state has to refund the unconstitutional
impact fees that it is the other programs that will suffer and
not the schools. That is of course if the politicians are
telling the truth.
But then the media will seek out the truth? Just how much
did you pay for that bridge?
Yes, I am in Florida but this does not apply only to
Florida. Dozens of states pushed the lottery on the basis of an
aid to education and they all pulled the same trick of defunding
the schools from general revenues by the amount of lottery
revenues. This is the first case of a reversal of the gambit and
I point out the fraud the politicians and the lap dog media will
perpetrate upon the state.
I have written this up on the Federal level more than once
and I have included the media in the accusation at that level. I
post here the natural tendency of the media to support the
government at the state level also. When the government lies to
us the “watchdog” media will swear to it.
This is just one more example of the scam used to raise
taxes despite the plain will of the people. The willingness of
the voters to believe in something for nothing is possible to
have something for nothing is not to be forgotten but neither is
a politician promising something for nothing.
In any event here is one more example of the short term
nature of any political promise and the use of that promise
against the people. This may be a trivial example but an
illustrative example. Look for it coming to a state near you
soon.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-969-0362

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+++ююююю r_941008 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (134)
To: Scott Summers 4 Oct 94 11:04:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou

SS> Did you call that # I gave you?

No. It got packed up in the move. Care to repost it?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (135)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 4 Oct 94 11:05:10
Subject: ONLY IN AMERICA

BS> MG> In the south women are the arbiters of the family’s
BS> MG> morality. The men are never expected to agree with them
BS> MG> save at home. It is the more traditional family
BS> MG> relationship.

BS> Also in Arkansas?

BS> You mean we have a traditional southern family in the White
BS> House?

Yep. Hillary never larned any better and Billie Jeff was
raised by his mommy. Realizing that all he did was trade mother
figures makes them quite understandable.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (138)
To: All 4 Oct 94 12:28:10
Subject: 2 hr Waco report

A couple days ago I forwarded a source for the KPOC-TV two
hour report “The Waco Incident.” I called today and verified the
information.

Credit card 405-767-8827.

Mail (check)

KPOC-TV

114 W. Central

Ponco City, Oklahoma 74601

Price $23.45 includes S&H.

One of the items covered is an interview with the Commander
of Ft. Hood who says the active military was used in Waco and
that he was ordered by the FBI to shut up or else.

As a side note, the FCC threatened to pull the license of
the satellite company originally scheduled to carry it IF they
carried it. It was dropped from F-2 transponder 5 because of the
threat. It was carried on F-1/18 instead.

Sounds hot to me.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (139)
To: Michael Shirley 4 Oct 94 13:23:10
Subject: Civilians And assault we

MS> As it is, the police never informed the public
MS> about the threat, and two weeks after the first incident,
MS> the first victim went to the local news media. Then again,
MS> I shoudln’t be surprized at that. Makes me glad that I
MS> acquired some good steel core ammo while it was still
MS> available. It would appear that some badguys are wearing
MS> armor these days,…….

Head shots, ma boy, head shots. With the small size body
target, the body on it is head sized. Quite convenient for
practice. Hit that “body” at 21 feet and you can hit a head
inside a house.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (140)
To: All 4 Oct 94 13:27:10
Subject: Creationism ONLY

The subject of this thread is the validity of the idea of
creation. This is also a test. NO creationist will be able to
stay on topic. Mention of evolution is NOT on topic.

This will demonstrate creationism has no substance save in
propaganda attacks upon evolution.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (152)
To: All 5 Oct 94 09:51:10
Subject: The Basis of Law

The Basis of Law
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

In determining what is a just and proper law a Constitution
is not required. That is an incumbrance the people of the
states put upon the have put upon the federal and state
constitutions based upon a well learned distrust of government.
There is another way to approach the passage of laws that does
not need guidelines.
Laws (or rules or traditions depending upon size) are only
established by groups of people. It is obvious the only place
laws are needed are when there are groups of people. And as with
the rules of a family the purpose of laws is to create and
preserve the order of society.
The preservation of order as the basis for law is certainly
a solid basis. If the society is not preserved then the benefits
of that society can not continue. And certainly people must
think there are benefits else they would leave the society.
The question arises as to how much order is required for
preservation. Obviously there are societies where everything not
prescribed is proscribed but these tend to dissolve in some form
of revolution. Societies that are under ordered dissolve into
chaos.
Thus there is both a minimum and maximum level of ordering
that will preserve a society. Thus as long as a society falls
within these bounds it will continue and its laws have a sound
basis.
There can be laws which are not related to the preservation
of society. What of them? Generally these are laws which in
some manner or other are perceived as doing some good but have no
direct relation to the preservation of society.
For example, a law against murder will help preserve the
society as who would choose to live in a society with murder or
put up with it. A zoning law certainly has no impact upon the
preservation of society. And thus the question, does a society
have an interest in laws having nothing to do with the
preservation of society?
Laws which clearly preserve society may work a hardship upon
some but that hardship is clearly the price of membership in that
society even if it should benefit some others. A law which
simply makes things “nicer” or “better” in the opinion of some is
clearly a law for their benefit without regard to the hardship it
works upon others. There is clearly no reason to accept the
hardship; merely to tolerate it at best.
Of course if we are talking of a monarchy or dictatorship
there is little question of who the “better” laws benefit, those
who rule the country. When it comes a society that has
specifically created the government it becomes a question as to
the validity of one group passing or obtaining a law to its own
benefit at the expense of another group. It is not clear such a
government differs from a band of random thieves save it is
acting under the color of government.
This abhorrence of a pure democracy by those who founded this
country was one of the reasons for the elaborate safeguards that
were built into our US Constitution to prevent exactly that.
There was the specific delegation of powers to the government and
if it was not clear enough the 10th amendment was added to say in
a polite manner, and that means ONLY those powers, dummy.
In order to minimize the chances of there being a private
agreement to subvert the limitations set out in the Constitution
it established three independent branches of government in the
belief they would be be at each other’s throats and keep any one
from dominating the government. It was not their intention that
political parties should subvert that separation of powers.
Consider a group of people carefully crafting three separate
and equal branches of government as a means of keeping that
government under control. Imagine their response to a situation
where the mood of many in the country and among many elected
officials to the idea that if one party controls the Executive
and Legislative branches it should pack the Judicial Branch and
pass all the legislation it wishes.
They included the power of the states to not only elect the
president and appoint Senators to give the states the power
independently limit the power and direction of the federal
government. The rise of political parties subverted both
controls.
As there arose two parties effectively sharing the power of
government the Electoral College election of the President as
members of the College are appointed by the parties. And once
there were parties were established the appointment of Senators
by the state directly mirrored the popular vote. Thus the direct
election of Senators can be seen as progressive as compared to
direct election of the President which we do not have as both
always mirror the political parties.
Thus in this country we have lost sight of the concept of
the minimum laws necessary for survival of the our country and
have embraced a policy of promoting the advancement of the
parties. That we do not see them jackbooting around giving
orders does not change the fact. It is difficult to impossible
to find a long term politician that is not rich beyond the
possibilities of their official income. If they had personal or
family money it is certainly impossible to explain their wealth.
And the citizens, aligned by party, ignore the interests of
the country and vote for their party like they root for their
football team. It is a fine rallying cry but when important
decisions are before the country, a decision between a necessary
law and an unnecessary law, support is along party lines, not
country lines.
This may appear a harsh or improper judgement but there is
no way to justify that the best person for a government job
appointment just happens to always have the right party loyalty.
No one can make the case Janet Reno is other than the third best,
democrat woman for the job of Attorney General.
The party system is not only the reason the country has lost
sight of the concept of necessary laws only but also of the
ability to restrain itself from unnecessary laws. The ultimate
fate of the country under such a system appears to me to be the
same as that of a monarchy or dictatorship that has created law
for its own benefit. At some point there will be too much
imposed order and there will be dissolution in rebellion.
That is unfortunate.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (153)
To: All 5 Oct 94 10:37:00
Subject: 2 hr Waco report

A couple days ago I forwarded a source for the KPOC-TV two
hour report “The Waco Incident.” I called today and verified the
information.

Credit card 405-767-8827.

Mail (check)

KPOC-TV

114 W. Central

Ponco City, Oklahoma 74601

Price $23.45 includes S&H.

One of the items covered is an interview with the Commander
of Ft. Hood who says the active military was used in Waco and
that he was ordered by the FBI to shut up or else.

Sounds hot to me.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * My every message, a conference unto itself.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (154)
To: All 5 Oct 94 10:37:00
Subject: The Basis of Law

The Basis of Law
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * “Bill survives Hil attack, two Sec Service Agents injured.”

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (158)
To: Jim Higgins 5 Oct 94 12:54:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou

JH> MG> Only two more years until we get the Republican variant on
JH> MG> the same theme. Sorry, I have seen it too many times to
JH> MG> think the changes with parties is anything more than
JH> MG> cosmetic. They are both after our rights, simply in
JH> MG> different areas. The more we switch parties in control the
JH> MG> faster we lose them — rather the faster it becomes
JH> MG> intolerable and we have to do something drastic to get them
JH> MG> back.

JH> No serious argument, but the Clintons surely are several
JH> magnitudes worse then anything in recent history as far as
JH> assaults on rights go. It is in that context I said “Only
JH> two more years!”

And I am pointing out that will be a false sense of relief.
As the trend is toward the loss of rights and that there is no
reversal whatsoever, it is better to have things come quickly.
That way the frog knows it is being boiled.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (159)
To: Jim Higgins 5 Oct 94 12:57:10
Subject: Aliases

JH> From the top. They have no idea what is important and what
JH> is a middle finger GIF now.

Speaking of which a file converted to any of the dozen or so
of other graphics formats is also a place to start prior to zip
and encrypt.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (160)
To: Jim Higgins 5 Oct 94 12:59:10
Subject: big bang

JH> MG> When you learn something on the subject you will learn that
JH> MG> such molecules will form in the lowest energy state
JH> MG> possible rather than in an energy state that is impossibly
JH> MG> high in this reality.

JH> About as “impossibly high” as a sufficiently large quantum
JH> fluctuation in the energy level of nothing required to
JH> create our universe?

If you look at the energetics of a chemical reaction you
find there is a limit. The requirement to achieve 0.4 c is
greatly in excess of what can be stored in an atom or molecule.
That much energy would prevent the formation of a molecule.

The quantum fluctuation energy level is another matter. It
is all a matter of statistics. NO energy level is impermissible.
In our universe with the form of time we have it is simply that
the chance of it happening in this universe is vanishingly small
compared to the present age of the universe.

However, prior to there being time it is a certainty that it
will happen. That is difficult to imagine so presume there was
time and nothing only. As there was no one around with a stop
watch a near infinite amount of time could have passed before it
happened for our universe.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (163)
To: Jim Higgins 5 Oct 94 13:11:10
Subject: BIG BANG VARIATION

JH> MG> Missing from the measurements (observation) is an change in
JH> MG> the expansion, that is, if there is ever to be a collapse
JH> MG> (which is required by nothing) then there has to be a rate
JH> MG> of slowing down. Even if there is no collapse in the
JH> MG> future there still has to be some slowing down IF the
JH> MG> universe has a significant amount of mass in it compared to
JH> MG> its size.
JH> MG>
JH> MG> I do not know the actual measured results but over the last
JH> MG> fifty years and to the precision of our ability to measure
JH> MG> there has been exactly zero observed decrease in the
JH> MG> velocity of expansion. That indicates the mass of the
JH> MG> universe is trivial.

JH> I think, given your caveats on ability to measure and the
JH> VERY SHORT time span over which we have been measuring, it
JH> indicates NOTHING about the mass of the universe.

Our measurements of radioactive decay over roughly the same
time span have established universal constants are not changing
to a level of accuracy as to make the question immaterial. That
is, good for billions of years worth of no change that would be
significant to anything we are using today in science or
engineering.

You may not be aware that these shifts done to parts per
billion or better. When one can say “if it exists then it is
less than” some very small number it can be directly related to
the amount of mass in the extent of the universe as we can
observe it.

This means the measurements are good enough to say IF
contraction is going to happen then it will be long after heat
death. At that point it is hardly more than idle speculation as
it can not effect anything we are dealing with today.

You MUST
JH> know the actual measured results and the error limits on
JH> them to make the statements you have and have them carry
JH> any meaning whatsoever! You admit you do not know them, so
JH> you are either unaware of the need to assure your
JH> measurements are accurate, precise and above the noise
JH> level, or you are just bluffing and blustering.

The error limits are as in saying, If happening then less
than. It is like saying IF there is some substance in your
drinking water and it is tested for and not found then, IF it is
present then it is less than x parts per Xillion. Parts per
billion are common these days. That is the confidence level of
interest.

This is a different concept than error limits. To have
plural limits you have to have a positive measurement to say plus
or minus error bounds. In this case we have the, it may be so
small as to be beyond our ability to measure and our limits to
measure are …

This further brings up the point that there is NO necessary
reason to expect the universe to contract. It is a only a
possibility people have considered. The search for the fifth
force and tachyons had a basis in measurement and theory
respectively. The idea of contraction comes from no observation
or theory. It is no more than speculation nor any different than
suggesting the universe might start blinking.

JH> MG> I am not interested in refutation only in clearing up the
JH> MG> false assumptions you are making and in pointing out what
JH> MG> you have overlooked which are the current direction of the
JH> MG> research. I also find it interesting you have missed the
JH> MG> most serious scientific interest in missing mass, that
JH> MG> galaxies as we observe them can not exist if our knowledge
JH> MG> of gravity is correct.

JH> You deny what I say and claim a degree in physics, and
JH> don’t feel an obligation to provide specific refutation?
JH> OK, so be it, but you will understand when I ignore most of
JH> what you say.

There is no basis for refutation. The answer is the same as
to creationists, there is no evidence for creation and there is
no evidence for any contraction. Were there evidence or theory
that might suggest contraction then that would have to be
addressed. In this case there is nothing to address. You are
effectively saying, prove it can’t happen.

JH> MG> Whether or not the universe ever collapses is trivial
JH> MG> compared to that concern.

JH> Quite so, but it was NOT the topic of discussion, eventual
JH> collapse was.

In that regard, provide reason in observation or theory to
support the idea that it should.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Bert Byfield 5 Oct 94 13:40:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

BB> Let him take it personally. When I was at the Bund
BB> meeting, after sacrificing several Christian children on
BB> the Hebrew altar,

It is good to see you have ceased exsanguinating Aryan
virgins. They are in such short supply these days.

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+++ююююю r_941012 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (25)
To: Jj Judkins 8 Oct 94 11:25:10
Subject: 3/3:Mt.Carmel

JJ> MG> Why would you not present a verifiable source of evidence
JJ> MG> for that assertion?

JJ> Prove top me that he WAS a good person.

In other words you have no source for the information. You
made it up. You are a fool.

JJ> Was he a good father? No. He allowed, in fact, demanded
JJ> his children be kept in the compound knowing there was
JJ> extreme danger. As a father that is reason enough for me
JJ> for his termination.

There goes your fantasy life again. There was no danger and
you know it. The FBI said there was no danger and that they
would wait as long as it took for the BDs to voluntarily leave.
Why would you invent the idea there was any danger?

You invent danger where there was no danger only to justify
condemning Koresh in your rather sick fantasy life.

I started to say he was also a
JJ> bigamist, but I don’t remember hearing if he was legaly
JJ> married to any of his “wives.” Now, that brings up another
JJ> thing. Part of the “wives” were underage.

They are not “wives unless they is a legal marriage. And of
course it is all in your imagination any way. Unless of course
you would like to provide evidence to the contrary from a
reliable source — but you can not. There is none. It is all in
your mind.

JJ> least statuatory rape I believe, depending what state you
JJ> are in. In Texas, I’m not sure if it was considered so,
JJ> but probably was.

In Texas the age is 14. Other than that, what you believe
is your business. When you post garbage you risk being called on
it. I will point out, if everything you state is true, Priscilla
Presley does not appear to have suffered for the same treatment
at the hands of Elvis.

JJ> MG> Why would you not present a verifiable source of evidence
JJ> MG> for that assertion?

JJ> Mainly because I don’t remember the names of those who were
JJ> interviewed. One, I believe, was one of the “wives”,
JJ> another a congregation member who saw what was going down
JJ> and got out a few months before Waco.

Of course you can not remember as there is no such source.

JJ> Damn, Matt, I wish you lived closer. I have something you
JJ> need real bad. A kitten.

Was that intended to be rational?

JJ> MG> In court they swore they had no such profile. It was denied
JJ> MG> by the FBI in several press conferences. Why would you claim
JJ> MG> they had one?

JJ> It was assumed. They have them on all their case subjects was my
JJ> understanding.

In other words you assume what does not exist and then
believe according to you assumptions. Is that rational?

JJ> MG> Because you do not believe the testimony of prosecution
JJ> MG> witnesses is a much better reason.

JJ> I have yet to see any testimony. All I have heard is
JJ> “Prosecution says” and stuff like that.

What you should have read were the postings of the newspaper
coverage. They were all over the conferences and networks during
the trial.

JJ> JJ> Again, it might have been UNTILL they fired on the BATF.

JJ> MG> YOU originally stated they came to arrest Koresh. You are
JJ> MG> now admitting your original statement was not true.

JJ> No I’m not. I’m allowing the remote possibility thet you
JJ> were right. EITHER way madman koresh and his wacko’s had
JJ> no rights firing on the agents.

As YOU KNOW, the BATF came running out of the horse trailers
throwing grenades into the house and shooting the dogs. That
much is prosecution testimony. It was also prosecution testimony
that Koresh an two other people appeared at the door unarmed.

As you also know the jury found they were provoked by the
BATF into shooting at the BATF.

Tell me, why do you think the Davidians were required to put
up with grenades being tossed into their home and their pets
being slaughtered by people who had not announced their
possession of a warrant? Without a warrant they are called
targets. But you know that.

JJ> The key point is he knowingly fired on federal officers.

It makes no difference what they were. Until they announced
they had a warrant they had no right to do anything. Without
that announcement they had no protection from being shot. As you
know they did NOT announce they had a warrant and had NO plans to
do so.

JJ> MG> When a transcript is prepared I will get a copy of it. I
JJ> MG> will even post where to get a copy for everyone. I presume
JJ> MG> you will read it then.

JJ> Oh, I’ll read it…

JJ> MG> When was the last time you voted on the BATF policy to
JJ> MG> secure the victims and THEN serve the warrant. That was
JJ> MG> stated several times in the press conferences.

JJ> What did you expect them to do?

Knock on the door. Give them a call first. Take Koresh up
on his offer to come out and look at his gun purchases. At the
minimum I would have expected them to announce they had a
warrant. That would take a bullhorn at most. They did none of
that.

JJ> There was a potential for violent resistance.

Crap. EVERY traffic stop is potentially dangerous.

Only a fool would go into an armed and
JJ> hostile residence and tell them they had to let him search
JJ> it or else, which is exactly what you say they should have
JJ> done. They have a term for that. Suicide.

As you KNOW. There was NO, ZERO, NADA reason to believe
there was any danger. However, post your imaginings, but make
certain they come from a verifiable source this time.

JJ> When you live in a democratic society you either live by
JJ> the rules or change them by democratic process. You don’t
JJ> break them.

The government follows the rules also, even if they are the
BATF.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 1. Kill them before they burn you alive.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (29)
To: Ken Pangborn 8 Oct 94 12:07:10
Subject: cadet Shannon

KP> KP> Shit Matt when are you going to learn that these
KP> KP> laws apply ONLY to MEN! That women are SPECIAL! If you
KP> KP> believe that the NOW gang has ANY concept of the word
KP> KP> “EQUAITY” that they toss about, you’re delusional! It is
KP> KP> about CONTROL Matt……………. Lesbian Academic Mafia
KP> KP> CONTROL! Sieg Heil! Why do you think they are called
KP> KP> “FEMINAZIS?”

KP> MG> RICO is also civil. Perhaps you folks can pool your
KP> MG> resources.

KP> Matt I won’t barge into a long diatribe on women
KP> and criminal law suffice me to ask you just how many MEN
KP> did Walkin’ Lawton spring from prison in the past year for
KP> murdering their wives?

When was the scold’s bridle forsaken?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю BATF Motto “Let God sort out the innocent!”
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (76)
To: All 9 Oct 94 00:58:10
Subject: To Err is Required

To Err is Required
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/09>

In our system of government and law we hold to many
principles in its execution. When it comes to criminal matters
where there are penalties involving the loss of liberty if not
life itself, we hold one to be above all else. It is better for
the guilty to go free than for the innocent to be punished
wrongfully.
This principle required that if there is to be an error in
judgement that it be in favor of the least harm, that is,
innocence. This is a reasonable principle. If there is a
question of guilt or innocence then innocence is the proper
finding.
Similarly we have enumerated rights and as citizens we have
charged our government with protecting those rights. Those
rights are as fundamental as our need to be protected from the
power of the state gaining a conviction of the innocent. Thus it
would appear equally prudent, when there comes a question as to a
right or the extent of that right that there be a similar error
in favor of that right.
Thus if there is a question of the right to free speech and
the government’s obligation to protect that right then it is
clear the government itself, in light of its obligation to
protect that right, is required to start with the assumption that
the question must be decided in the favor of that right lacking
overwhelming government interest an alternate interpretation.
Is this what we have? No, it is the opposite of what we
have. The Supreme Court has held that if a person does not
vigorously speak of a his rights at all points he has lost them.
That is hardly erring on the side of the government’s obligation
to protect our specified rights.
In addition the sequence of the infringement of our rights
has followed from a progression of exceedingly legalistic
convolutions that only a lawyer could love. When the enumerated
right is freedom from warrantless searches and seizures the
courts have found it a challenge to refine what that really
means. In cars it is down to the degree of what might be plain
view, in or out of a bag, and whether or not that bag is properly
sealed.
Were there error on the side of the protected right then all
but waving the item out the car window would be protected. Such
is not the form of our legal system.
Our legal system is on the side of meticulously defining via
court precedent only the exact limits of our protections. There
is no presumption that the rights exist. The presumption is that
they were defined in the minds of the framers of the Constitution
and must be refined by the courts.
This ignores on significant point. The Framers were of the
mind of those who declared our independence and they held …

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all
Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,
Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness — That to secure these
Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
Powers from the Consent of the Governed,

The concept of government is clearly to protect the rights
of men. This brings up a larger issue. That the same government
charged with protecting those rights has assumed an adversarial
role in in limiting those rights by intellectual mayhem. It has
declined to fulfill its defensive roll in the protection of those
rights.
I grant executing the law and defending rights at the same
time is a difficult position. That is why the requirement to err
on the side of the right BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH not by the
Judicial Branch is essential. That is no where in evidence.
What we have is a government with the largest and most
active branch that is actively hostile to our rights. The
Executive Branch works to limit those rights contrary to its
constituted obligation. I see no reason to believe this was the
government that was conceived and constituted for this country.
There is no reason to permit it to continue.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33613, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Ye shall know them by their personal.dct.
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From: MATT GIWER Area: Controv – (107)
To: ED BORGHI 10 Oct 94 10:05:00
Subject: KIA’s

@0B@NOTE: This message was originally addressed to SCOTT SUMMERS
@0B@ and was forwarded to you by ED BORGHI
@0F@ ——————–@0B@
SS> My son is no longer here to “Lead the Way,” however I am.
SS> Until you, as President and Commander in Chief, are either
SS> willing or able to formulate a clear foreign policy,
SS> establish specific objectives, and most important, support
SS> the men and women in uniform. I will “Lead the Way” in
SS> insuring that you no longer send America’s finest to a
SS> needless death. When you are capable of meeting these
SS> criteria then I will accept your letter of condolence.
SS>
SS> James H Smith Capt/Infantry (Retired)

The man is a master of understatement.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю FOIA? We don’t need no stinking FOIA!
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+++ююююю r_941013 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (80)
To: All 9 Oct 94 12:05:10
Subject: Kuwait, 9 Oct 94

Kuwait, 9 October 1994
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/9>

Whatever Iraq is up to it is apparently not a lightning
strike. It has given up a 24 hour window in which it could have
moved into Kuwait with no effective opposition. Rather it has
taken the time to mass (lack of continuous satellite coverage
still hinders a better description than “massing”) what is now
estimated to be 60,000 Republican Guard troops. They are 12
miles from the Kuwaiti border, 2 miles outside the 10 mile wide
demilitarized zone. (Those distances are English conversions of
metric, 20 km for the DMZ. Expect variations in the numbers you
hear.)
Now the US is moving the carrier George Washington into the
area and, although still a long flight, its planes are in
striking distance of any Iraqi advance. Had Iraq an air defense
capability there might still be time.
The US ground response is anemic to say the least. It is
limited to 2,000 Marines and 4,000 Army, RDF. They have been
ordered to go; there are no press reports of their having left as
of 11:00 am today. That still gives Iraq 24 hours to move before
facing serious resistance.
Our troops will arrive (the army at least) to operate tanks
that are prepositioned outside of Kuwait City. If Iraq can move
fast enough and secure those tanks they have a leg up on retaking
Kuwait.
A British frigate are whose relevant armament is surface to
air missiles. Also several US Hawk surface to air batteries have
been moved from Saudi to Kuwait. It is not apparent what air
assets Iraq still possesses that warrant these actions.
Another development is the “spontaneous” arrival of up to
20,000 nomads described by Iraq as people forced out of Kuwait
generations ago. They too are “massing” outside the DMZ but it
convenient to say they are pitching tent. What part they will
play in Iraq’s plan is not apparent at the moment. It is worth
remembering Iraq sponsored a peace group inside of its defenses
on the Kuwaiti border last time around. (CNN name these people
“bedoons.” Expect a re-run of the “expert” coverage of the
region we received last time.)
On the home front the President is rephrasing the statements
he made to Haiti. His staff is going on talk shows and giving
interviews repeating the same “sound bites” and assuring the
country and the world of the President’s resolve.
The message is “the US is not preoccupied with Haiti.” I
will note this theme appears to assume Iraq somehow believes
Haiti is a Caribbean superpower. It would appear the
administration is in fact the only group impressed with its
actions in Haiti.
The UN is posturing as usual with its expression of “grave
concern” and the like that would impress neither a five year old
nor anyone who observed the UN contribution to the first Gulf
War.
It is now dark in the Middle East and the IR satellite is
not in place as yet. Keep in mind the time zone differences when
listening to the news. Some one on Face the Nation said he just
returned from the Kuwait / Iraq border along with stock footage
of daylight something or other, given the fires in the distance
most likely from the last war.

* * * * *

*****

The intention of these posts is remain apolitical. My
apologies to the political conferences.

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33613, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю The Constitution is not a technicality.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (81)
To: Thomas Paine 9 Oct 94 12:12:10
Subject: Citizen Militias

TP> MG> Forming Militias
TP> MG> by
TP> MG> Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

TP> Had seen a reference or two to your ambitions for
TP> publishing a newsletter. I guess that’s the reason for that
TP> (c).

It is the other way around. Those who bother to say
anything are 20 to 1 complimenting these articles. On organizing
nine months production I found enough material for eight issues.
A newsletter was obvious. If that succeeds, after the first year
there will be enough material for a book. It all adds adds.
Were there a market for a simple collection of the articles,
there is enough material for a book right now.

TP> MG> Anyone paying attention knows that militias are
TP> MG> forming all over the country primarily in response to the
TP> MG> excesses of the government particularly at Waco. A
TP> MG> rational federal government would throw a few of their own
TP> MG> to the wolves in hopes of stopping the preparations for
TP> MG> revolution. This is not a rational government.

TP> I appreciate the whole bunch ‘o opinion on your part
TP> that follows this statement, except for one thing. You just
TP> tried to make me turn my head away from anything like
TP> actual context in this post with that “Anyone paying
TP> attention” lead-in. If I don’t KNOW about these mystery
TP> militias, I must not be paying attention, shame on me.

Despite your namesake handle, you are not paying attention.
I know of four directly just from the BBSs. I have read
reference to others. I would suggest expanding your conference
reading and look for some of the smaller networks. Frednet is
suggested. You might also try GUNTALK run by the NRA.

TP> whether such things are right, I find it hard to do so when
TP> my first question is whether these militias are nothing
TP> more than Imaginary Friends for Revolutionary Wannabees.

The entire militia effort is premature and most realize
that. Organized military effort is the last step in an
insurgency. That they are happening at all is the tip of the
iceberg. Just after Waco an entire new class of people took an
interest in collecting virus programs; they said they considered
them weapons. You should also follow the interest in PGP and
other forms of secure communications. Those who are interested
are interested for a reason. There are many more than the usual
collection of paranoids.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (83)
To: Jj Judkins 9 Oct 94 12:33:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS

JJ> MG> A government panel has convened today, 9/30, to discuss,
JJ> MG> among other things, limiting the number of cars a family
JJ> MG> can own.

JJ> What’s next? Are they going to limit the number of TV’s we
JJ> can own, or maybe radios

You are giving them ideas. They are already arguing we
should pay $5 a gallon for gasoline because Europe does. England
at least taxes TV ownership. I do not know about radio.

so as to cut down on the
JJ> information we recieve? maybe it will be to limit how many
JJ> times a person can have sex with their lover.

The only question is if that limit would apply to their
spouses.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (85)
To: Ann Ross 9 Oct 94 12:35:10
Subject: Espy’s resignationяяяяяяя

AR> MG> For those administration score keepers. Add Mike Espy to
AR> MG> the list. He will be too busy defending himself from the
AR> MG> charges and can not give his full time Bill Clinton as the
AR> MG> president deserves a full time Secretary of Agriculture.
AR> MG>
AR> MG> In a similar vein, Paula Jones has said she will drop her
AR> MG> suit if Clinton makes a non-admission apology by noon
AR> MG> Sunday. Of course if Clinton argues he should be held safe
AR> MG> from responding in court due to the demands on his time
AR> MG> defending himself, the country deserves better than a part
AR> MG> time president.

AR> The President will give all the notice to trash it
AR> deserves – none.

As you know now, Clinton did respond by saying he was in the
hotel but did not remember meeting her. We already have the
State Trooper confirming they were in the same room at the same
time. Good enough for you? Of course not. As you hold, Clinton
has no balls.

AR> … Generalissimo Raoul Cedras thanks Senator Robt. Dole
AR> for his support.

That was Jimmy Carter for getting him a much better deal
than Clinton postured on TV.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (86)
To: Lee Grimsley 9 Oct 94 12:40:10
Subject: Wacko in Waco

LG> At any rate, the tape was produced by KPOC-TV,
LG> Ponca City, Oklahoma.
LG>
LG> The lead investigative reporter who put it
LG> together was Kristina King.
LG>
LG> Hope this helps — BTW the tape is
LG> copyrighted.

It should be copyrighted and the price is reasonable. If it
were not available then copying would be reasonable.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (90)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 9 Oct 94 16:25:10
Subject: LITTLE PEOPLE

BS> And Iraq. I heard that Sadaam has recently instituted new
BS> “Islamic” punishments such as cutting off a hand for theft
BS> and for a number of other things. One possibility might be
BS> that the country has some real problems and so he is
BS> introducing terrorism to maintain control, but disguising
BS> it as “Islamic Law”.

Which mullahs are fronting for him? Only they can judge.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages. FBI at Waco.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (91)
To: George Bethel 9 Oct 94 16:26:10
Subject: Little people

GB> The french soldiers are under the UN flag and their mission
GB> is peacekeeping not fighting. The fact that they are
GB> getting shot at is incidental to the UN policy.

Do you suppose they have a peace keeping plan involving
other than fighting? Harsh language perhaps?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (92)
To: Chris Boyd 9 Oct 94 16:35:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory

CB> JH> It should not take all 600 pages to present enough
CB> JH> highlights of the proof to indicate its basis. Darned if
CB> JH> I’m going to buy the book on what I’ve seen so far.

CB> I wouldn’t know how many pages it would take to
CB> explain God and the universe, I don’t understand the
CB> aspects enough to make any estimate. I’m not sure if
CB> 600 is worthy enough at all.

666 pages are exactly the number needed.

But do not forget, upon explaining god, whatever it is no
longer supernatural but amenable to control by the same laws that
explain it. Wait until the engineers get their hands on the
book. There will be god machines all over the place. A true
dial-a-miracle age will come into being.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans. Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (93)
To: Chris Boyd 9 Oct 94 16:39:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory

CB> CB> What makes you say this? How is it not a theory?

CB> AM> Are you claiming that Omni is a legitimate peer review journal
CB> AM> ???????

CB> I’m not making any claims about Omni. You are the one
CB> who has a problem with it.

What makes you think the rest of us did not find the
suggestion so ludicrous as not to warrant comment?

CB> Should everything that shows up in this magazine be
CB> considered non-credible, just because it’s in Omni?

EVERYTHING in Omni has an uphill fight to establish
credibility. You should realize that.

CB> CB> What observed data *do* we have about God?

CB> AM> Absolutely none ; therefore there can be no theory that
CB> AM> invoke the presence or actions of a non-evident agent. You
CB> AM> have made my point for me.

CB> So the whole debate on the existence of the origin of
CB> the universe and of God should be stopped because of
CB> this?

There is plenty of data on the origin of the universe.
There is none for the existence of any god. It is only the
latter that is a waste of time until there is some evidence to
start with. Otherwise you are both making up where to start and
what direction to proceed.

CB> No one should come up with any ideas about this
CB> because they don’t fit the standard of being a theory?

It is not a theory unless it explains facts. As there are
no facts to explain it can not be a theory.

CB> Tipler himself said it was an outrageous statement,
CB> and that he will have a extremely difficult time
CB> proving all the aspects of it.

Not surprising in the absence of any data.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco! Never again! Vote Libertarian!
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (94)
To: Chris Boyd 9 Oct 94 16:45:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory

CB> CB> Theory in a sentence: “God, a personal being who created
CB> CB> the universe out of nothing, exists, loves us, and will
CB> CB> one

CB> This is an extremely compact summary of his theory,

As it explains no facts it is not a theory.

CB> which takes up the whole article. He even says he
CB> usally leaves out the resurrection part, and indicates
CB> that God is nothing but space-time curving into
CB> infinity.

The usual BS out of nowhere demonstrating the modern
theologically correct version of what the christian god is like.
Do he address why no other god such as Zeus can NOT be described
the same way? (REAL FACTS that must be explained, not
imaginings.)

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (95)
To: All 10 Oct 94 03:58:10
Subject: WHO?!?!? resigns?

Just to get ahead of the Clinton lovers here, as they are
not permitted an independent thought, let me comment upon the
Cedras resignation expected today.

General Noriega did the same thing five years before the
conquest of Panama just to capture him.

I note Jimmy Carter was involved in Panama and in Haiti.

That Cedras does what Noriega did is meaningless.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю The only good criminal is a dead criminal.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (146)
To: Sol Steinberg 10 Oct 94 15:08:10
Subject: Wise Decision

SS> If the police beat the crap out of a man in Los Angeles, we
SS> get indignant, put them on trial and try to prevent this
SS> from happening again.

They were acquitted of the beating. They were tried again
by the Feds because the gov did not like the acquittal.

SS> If it happens to a man in Haiti, you think we should ignore
SS> it. Does the concept of responsibility for one’s fellow man
SS> end at our borders?

Yes

SS> Was the murder of 6 million Jews none of our business?

Yes

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (147)
To: Bert Byfield 10 Oct 94 15:11:10
Subject: Yes I Agree

BB> DV> it was pathetic how Les Aspin, Clinton’s incompetent
BB> DV> Scretary of Defense, flat out refused the request for more
BB> DV> armour and heavy weaponry that the armed forces needed in
BB> DV> order to achieve their objectives in Somalia, objectives
BB> DV> which Clinton supports. His refusal,

BB> How would the objective of feeding people be served by the
BB> use of heavy weapons and armor? Maybe we should have nuked
BB> them? That would have been real neat, hunh? <geez yet
BB> another neanderthal skull-basher nazi…>

As you were not paying attention…

Bush declared the mission to be feeding people.

Clinton lost control of the situation and our military got
involved in a search and destroy operation against the man now
the head of Somalia. It was that CHANGE of mission that Clinton
refused to support with the equipment needed to accomplish it.
You will remember the mission failed.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (148)
To: Ann Ross 10 Oct 94 15:27:10
Subject: A Polite Society

AR> TB> The state of Texas investigated and determine those charges
AR> TB> false. So any other discussion on them is pretty moot,
AR> TB> especially when those charges are used to rationalize an
AR> TB> assault.

AR> No, they could not find anyone willing to testify
AR> under oath at the time of the original
AR> investigation months before the whole thing
AR> exploded. BUT, more than one of the group has said
AR> for publication that at least 15 of the children
AR> were Koresh’s.

I will call that claim and say 50 were his.

Are you willing to give a name to this unnamed person? Was
it the person who also claims to be a prophet? The one in the
middle of a custody fight? Please name the person. You can’t
name the person? Why is that not surprising.

It may get into DNA testing at some
AR> point. And that can be done with his family’s DNA.
AR> I feel sure the government will do so in the civil
AR> case, proving that they had an interest in helping
AR> the children.

They will have to do better than that. They will have to
find someone other than Reno who had any claim the children were
ever in any danger. You will recall Congress was unable to find
anyone in the chain of command that had any such belief. It is
simply one more bit of evidence Reno is psychotic.

Opposed to that is the FBI hostage manual saying to wait it
out unless there is imminent danger to life. Thus the wrongful
death suit would have a direct violation of a policy designed to
minimize loss of life. The result of violating that policy is
the substance of a wrongful death suit.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (150)
To: Jj Judkins 10 Oct 94 15:41:10
Subject: A Polite Society

JJ> JH> shot is acceptable, but a quarter is too much to pay for
JJ> JH> decent stopping power? Although the FBI did for several

JJ> Jim, not everyone can afford to drop 2-300 on a new weapon.
JJ> I am not saying I woldn’t preferr a 9MM, I don’t know. I
JJ> have only had the chance to fire one, and it was a piece of
JJ> Italian crap, some thing that started with a B and wasn’t
JJ> Beretta, either.

There are used guns.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (152)
To: Jackie Bradbury 10 Oct 94 15:44:10
Subject: Absenteeism

JB> I’ve been REALLY busy with all this world-saving and baby
JB> kissing (or, assisting others to do that) here in KC, so
JB> I’ve been away for a few weeks. If you’ve sent something
JB> to me and I didn’t reply, well, unless you saved the
JB> message, we’ll have to start over from scratch.
JB>
JB> I should add that, until Nov. 8, my participation in good
JB> ol’ CONTROV will be somewhat limited. So, if weeks go by
JB> and you don’t get a reply from me, chalk it up to the
JB> campaign(s).

A nice career with 1.5 year vacations.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (156)
To: Edward Hudock 10 Oct 94 15:51:10
Subject: Bible

EH> The confusion of the field is simple to explain. Look
EH> at how Scripture refers to people. A man who is not
EH> DIRECTLY another man’s father about can be called his
EH> father. Example…Luke 19:9. This refers to Zaccheus as a
EH> son of Abraham. Obviously Christ knew and we know that he
EH> was not a direct son…but this is how people were referred
EH> to in that day. (In this case it may only refer to the
EH> fact that Zaccheus is a follower…see Galations 3:7, and
EH> not even in the lineage of Abraham…) Likewise, Judas’
EH> money purchased the field…so therefore “he” bought it.

Why are you going through all this torture to avoid the
plain, written word that he purchased the field?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (157)
To: Mark Simmons 10 Oct 94 15:53:10
Subject: BIBLE

MS> MS> MS> Acts 1:18 “Now this man purchased a field with the reward
MS> MS> MS> of iniquity;

MS> Did YOU purchase the taco?? NO, your REWARD did.

“The reward purchased a field with the reward.”

“The reward purchased a field WITH itself.”

“The reward purchased a field with the man.”

These do not quite follow the wording do they?

MS> Such is the English language. That’s as plain as I can
MS> make it.

Then I would suggest you should learn english much better
than you presently know it.

Anyone can see it so don’t feed me a line about
MS> how you can’t. Why don’t you just be honest and say you
MS> don’t want to see it.

Torture the words until they confess. If you do not like
the literal word then make the literal words mean something else.

Apply the same methods … The cross was crucified on the
cross, Christ wasn’t. This is fun. I wonder what other true
meanings we can discover if we work at it.

MS> BS> If you’re going to resort to this sort of foolishness, find
MS> BS> a fool.

MS> 1 Corinthians 1:18-23

MS> “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish,
MS> foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power
MS> of God.

Are you saying you are proud of being a fool?

MS> For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
MS> and will bring to nothing the understanding of the
MS> prudent.

Rather anti-intellectual isn’t it. It likes its worshippers
on the stupid side. That must be what it takes to be unable to
accept plain english.

MS> Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
MS> disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the
MS> wisdom of this world?

It made its believers brain dead that is for certain.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (158)
To: Mark Riedel 10 Oct 94 16:10:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS

MR> Then again, drivers licenses and speeding tickets aren’t
MR> federal law, with, I think, the sole exception of the CDL
MR> — which would probably be permitted under the commerce
MR> clause.

I see no basis for a CDL being permitted by anything in the
Constitution. It is a damn national driver’s license in addition
to a state license.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Kelsey Bjarnason 10 Oct 94 18:14:10
Subject: Gun control

KB> I do, however, think that reducing the probability of John
KB> Q. Moron criminals getting guns essentially by accident
KB> will prevent _some_ deaths, and as far as I’m concerned,
KB> preventing _any_ deaths via means which do not actually
KB> infringe upon others’ rights is a good thing.
KB>
KB> If what I’m proposing seems too radical, consider – nobody
KB> is saying you _can’t_ have a gun, they’re saying if you
KB> want one, you have to demonstrate that you know how to use
KB> it; after that, it’s all yours.

You are in fact playing the “reasonable” gun restriction
game. You have failed completely to make connection between a
person knowing how to use a gun (hint: the bullet comes out of
the hole) and criminals getting a gun by “accident” (hint: the
rest of the world calls it theft.)

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Matthew Russotto 10 Oct 94 18:24:10
Subject: Gun control

KB> What would I consider a _basic_ level of firearms
KB> knowledge? Well, first, how to aim it and hit what you’re
KB> aiming at, preferrably tested under stressful conditions
KB> (although I’m not sure this last is practical).

I am constantly impressed that anti-gunners can find the on
switch on their computers and still go on about how they want
criminals well trained in guns. I judge such people very stupid.

KB> The difference between this and firearms is pretty obvious:
KB> if I don’t wear my helmet, I’m only liable to kill myself.
KB> If I point a gun at you which I don’t know how to operate,
KB> it’s your life, not mine, I put at risk.

I am often amazed how feeble minded the anti-gun types truly
are. There is a rule you folks never seem to comprehend.

“Do not point at what you do not intend to kill.”

Anyone pointing a gun at anyone else is intending to kill.
In that case it is certainly the most safe to have someone so
feeble minded, an anti-gun type for example, holding it as they
have no idea what the trigger is for.

=====

Do you think anti-gunners will ever pass the LBJ test of
being able to walk and chew gum at the same time?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: Ann Ross 10 Oct 94 18:41:10
Subject: Haiti

AR> -=> Quoting Stan Hardegree to Bob Sakowski <=-

AR> SH> This is all very nice, but Clinton did not send them. In
AR> SH> fact, he launched his invasion while they were still
AR> SH> negotiating.

AR> That is an absolute lie. Clinton DID send them.
AR> He was in constant communication with Carter and he
AR> told him over and over that the MILITARY COMMAND
AR> had to move within a certain timeframe AND IT HAD
AR> REACHED THE OUTSIDE EDGE OF THAT TIMEFRAME.
AR> Clinton was doing what he had to do as told to him
AR> by those **in command of the actual moveout**.
AR> Remember the problem of having all that equipment
AR> and, in particular the helicopters ON DECK, when in
AR> bad weather could have been a problem of major
AR> proportions. You never cease to amaze me the
AR> extent to which you will go to lie.

You are supporting Clinton’s story. SH is recounting
Carter’s story. You are doing as expected.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: Sol Steinberg 10 Oct 94 18:44:10
Subject: Haiti

SS> Of course, he sent them. He was constantly in touch with
SS> them. Despite Carter’s naivete, it was Clinton’s moving
SS> ahead with his invasion plans that convinced the Haitian
SS> Military that he meant business and making a deal was their
SS> only option.

Carter said just the opposite, that the launch of the
invasion almost broke up the negotiations. But then what would
Carter know? He was only there conducting the negotiations. The
stories of Clinton’s supporters must be right because they were
not there.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (175)
To: Scott Summers 10 Oct 94 19:10:10
Subject: Fires

Question good sir.

The anti-smokers are now claiming smoking is the primary of
either home fires or home fire deaths depending upon who is
making the claim. Any truth to it?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю The National Wish List to Santa for Health Care. HRC
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+++ююююю r_941017 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (393)
To: Mark Williamson 11 Oct 94 22:27:10
Subject: A Polite Society

MW> MG> Just why in your mind would investigated and dismissed
MW> MG> allegations justify the BATF attack? Please explain in
MW> MG> detail

MW> MG> MW> I’m not defending the actions of the government in the
MW> MG> MW> Waco deal, but don’t you think that David Koresh was a
MW> MG> MW> little ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~

MW> I have said over and over and over that it was *not*
MW> justified. I think you can see plainly in this quoted
MW> passage that I said, “I’m not defending the actions of the
MW> government.” I don’t know why you would want me to
MW> justify something I have already said I don’t agree with.

I read you saying that Koresh was a little bit to blame for
something which you have yet to justify in any manner.

MW> I just think that, as in the case of this Swiss guy who we
MW> are hearing about on the news now, if you put that much
MW> faith in one person, as did the Branch Davidians, you
MW> really don’t have a lot of room to complain if it turns
MW> out bad.

And I hold there is no basis for any comparison with either
the Swiss incident or Jim Jones. And you appear to hold there is
without the least bit of justification for you position.

I am always leery of anyone who has “the
MW> answer”, whether it be politics, religion, or
MW> tiddly-winks.

Would you kindly take the time to define exactly what answer
Koresh claimed to have? Please be specific as I know the answer.
After you have done that connect it with his being “a little bit
responsible.” Take all the screens you need.

When you put your fate in the hands of
MW> (an)other person(s), you no longer have any control over
MW> your own life.

Demonstrate that happened in any sense other than any group
has a leader. It comes with human nature particularly when under
attack.

If, for argument’s sake, it was
MW> conclusively proven that David Koresh went around shooting
MW> his followers in the heads before the raid, which I
MW> believe probably happened anyway, but, for argument’s
MW> sake–then they are no more or no less dead than if they
MW> were all shot by the ATF agents.

Why would you invent such a stupid example when Koresh was
one of those shot in the head? Middle of the forehead at that.

My point is, when they
MW> chose to follow this guy wherever he led, they also chose
MW> not to have a say in the outcome of their own lives.

Just where is it this person lead other than to Mt. Carmel?

I
MW> can’t imagine being so unsure of my own decision-making
MW> ability that I would just leave it all up to, say, David
MW> Letterman, or Paul McCartney, and just let them make all
MW> my decisions for me.

You have left all of your decisions on this matter up to
proven government and media lies. I do not see you as any
different than your examples.

And even if I did, I wouldn’t pick a
MW> paranoid-schezophrenic, coke-head, heavy-metal guitar
MW> player with a messianic complex and a burning desire to
MW> sleep with every female in the state of Texas, no matter
MW> their age, and take their money, besides. How about you?

You are invited to prove any of the above allegations.
There exists no such evidence. You are the dupe of the
government and the media whom you are letting do your thinking
for you.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (394)
To: Mark Williamson 11 Oct 94 22:35:10
Subject: A Polite Society

MW> MG> Provide your evidence with examples of this
MW> MG> manipulation. Failing to do so does indicate you are
MW> MG> lying.

MW> MG> Name his crime. Cite the specific law he violated.
MW> MG> Failure to do so means you are lying.

MW> No, it doesn’t! It could mean lots of things. It could
MW> mean I am misinformed, or full of crap, or hallucinating,
MW> or just plain wrong. Jeez, dude, lighten up. I think you
MW> need to look up the definition of lying.

It means willfully conveying an untruth. It means conveying
what you have failed to verify as true before conveying without
the conditional statement of “I have heard” or some such is a
lie.

Just because I
MW> have a different opinion about something to you doesn’t
MW> mean I am deliberately fabricating what I am saying
MW> specifically in order to deceive someone. I am just
MW> stating my opinion, which, last time I checked, was still
MW> legal to do in this country. Man.

The intent of deception is not required for a lie to be
stated.

As to your opinion, you have stated far more than you could
possibly have formed as a privately formed opinion in this
matter.

Free speech is still permitted in this country. A
responsible person forms an opinion based upon independent review
of the information rather than parroting lies and thus
cooperating in the lie. If you have no interest in being
responsible then expect to be dealt with accordingly.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (395)
To: Scott Summers 11 Oct 94 22:41:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou

SS> MG> No. It got packed up in the move. Care to repost it?

SS> 1-800-932-9888
SS> The Constitution Party

Got it.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (396)
To: Frank Scheidt 11 Oct 94 22:42:10
Subject: Atheism

FS> FS> By definition any event which cannot be explained by
FS> FS> physical — or “natural” — laws is supernatural … the
FS> FS> “Big Bang” is one such example …

FS> MG> It is amazing just how common supernatural phenomena are.
FS> MG> Why just five years ago room temperature semi-conductors
FS> MG> were all supernatural miracles. Hardly more than 200 years
FS> MG> ago the movement of the planets was supernatural. 90 years
FS> MG> ago radium was supernatural. 60 years ago the sun was a
FS> MG> supernatural.

FS> What gives you *that* idea, Matt? All of those events can
FS> be explained by natural laws … Sheeeeeesh … don’t be so
FS> superstitious, Matt.

In the time periods I have given the phenomena could NOT be
explained by natural law so at the time they were supernatural.
Are you trying to play dumb on me?

FS> MG> It must be wonderful for you to live in a world of the
FS> MG> supernatural all based upon what you can not understand as
FS> MG> for you even the big bang is supernatural simply because
FS> MG> you are unable to understand it.

FS> Huh? There are a *lot* of things which I don’t understand.
FS> It isn’t *that* which makes them supernatural. Be
FS> reasonable …

You said, “can not be explained by natural law.” As
knowledge of natural law is always increasing the bounds of what
you view as supernatural are always receding. If it depended
upon your ability to understand, as you insist it does with the
Big Bang, then much that is explained by natural law remains
supernatural.

That is the consequence of your position.

FS> MG> It is also interesting that you would hold to a belief the
FS> MG> supernatural being what you can not understand when you can
FS> MG> see, the supernatural becoming natural every day by
FS> MG> learning and research.

FS> What you say is utterly impossible. It’s like saying black
FS> becomes white by learning and research. Black is black.
FS> White is white. Natural is natural. Supernatural is
FS> supernatural.

Such a trivial example. Black does become white when all
brighter light sources are excluded. That is the old trick of
looking very closely at black velvet while lighting only the part
looked at. It is very white. It sort of gets the idea across to
gradeschoolers.

You have stated the ability to explain separates the two
whereas the ability to explain constantly increases. Thus in
time the supernatural must decrease.

FS> MG> I do not see how you can reconcile any idea of supernatural
FS> MG> when what is supernatural can be converted to natural by
FS> MG> scientists. Your god doesn’t have much going for it, does
FS> MG> it?

FS> Matt, I cannot believe that you’re serious. I just *can’t*
FS> believe it. This is a ploy to start a controversy, right?

I am only dealing with your own statement. You started any
controversy, not me.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans. Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (398)
To: All 11 Oct 94 23:32:10
Subject: Abortion positions

“Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its
people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.
This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is
abortion.”
— Mother Teresa, Feb 3, 1994

“We would like for the right-to-life, anti-choice groups to
really get over their love affair with the fetus.”
— Joycelyn Elders, Jan 18, 1992

The choice is clear. Choose nerf brain. And, she has the
more amusing pronunciation

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Hillary, The World’s Greatest Authority on health care.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (425)
To: Ed Borghi 12 Oct 94 19:53:10
Subject: A Polite Society

EB> -> You are simply demonstrating the power of the big lie
EB> -> technique on the weak minded. Very much as it worked on
EB> -> Annimal.

EB> Let us not forget Randy Weaver and his family. The Waco
EB> incident happened just 6 months after the Weaver affair.
EB> Once again innocent people died at the hands of the BATF
EB> and FBI and once again not one citizen was convicted of
EB> anything and not one Federal Agent was disiplined!

I am not certain where I was at the time of Weaver but I
remember nothing about it in real time for certain. I might have
heard about it just as it was ending. That is quite different
from Waco in that the gov had weeks in the spotlight to sucker in
the gullible and weak minded.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (426)
To: Ed Borghi 12 Oct 94 19:56:10
Subject: ATHEISM

EB> -> If I may? That for which there is no evidence of
EB> -> existence can be anything it wants. Hypothesizing its
EB> -> nature to be wildly esoteric does nothing to support the
EB> -> essential, primary, sine qua non of the subject, existence
EB> -> in the first place.

EB> Scarey isn’t it? A force may exist that is so powerful that
EB> man may not be able to overcome it’s will.

There may be such a frog also but then zero evidence of
existence of the frog also.

EB> I always wondered why it is so hard for some people to
EB> accept that there just may be something or someone out
EB> there that fits the above description.

What there may be is pure speculation. Anyone can accept
the possibility but without evidence of existence it is worthless
speculation.

EB> Many people have no problem believing that some day we will
EB> be able to control space and time and travel within it,

As we already travel through space I do not see that as much
of a leap. As we already travel one way through time and have a
theoretical way to travel backward in time it is hardly
speculation to suggest backward travel may one day be reduced to
engineering practice.

EB> that we will be able to control not only highly reactive
EB> atoms but all atomic structure,

There is not much left to control these days. Most
everything can be done, the problem is only the engineering.

that we will be able to
EB> cure all disease and actually create new life.

All we need is to get a handle on viral diseases; we have
already created life.

How could
EB> one say that we are beyond a doubt the first to have done
EB> so when that time comes, if ever?

Who cares? We have only been at real science to any extent
for barely 400 years and we have most of the big problems
answered. 400 more years should icing the cake. As it will take
6000 years to double recorded human history it is trivial to
expect miracles, not only expect them but to schedule them, like
the Manhattan Project.

The size and age (as we
EB> calculate) of the universe and the number of galaxies and
EB> stars in those galaxies should be enough to show that we
EB> may not be alone and that all that we are doing now and
EB> will do in the future may have already been done by others.

That does bring up the “where are they?” question. Why no
signs of their existence? It is a disturbing question if one
seriously considers it. Either the others are hiding their
existence from us, there are ultimate limits to control of the
universe, or we are alone. It is quite a strange universe we
live in.

EB> The universe is bilions of years old. Add 1 million years
EB> to our cycle of achievment and where do you think we would
EB> be now. The device that you are reading this on is only 50
EB> or so years old. The device I typed this on has only
EB> existed in it’s present form for about 14 years and the
EB> granddaddy of all of them for less than 50 years. All that
EB> we now take for granted and that we depend on so much in
EB> our daily lives has come to pass in the last 100 years.
EB>
EB> Add that 1 million years and imagine where we could be now.

That many years is hardly necessary to appear as gods.
Consider the gun among primitives without the trappings of
fallability Hollywood puts on it. More simply, go back to Rome
with a supply of swords made of modern steel and they could be
sold for enough to give one a life of luxury.

EB> With technological advance slowed to 10% of its present
EB> rate I really think we could create anything we wanted to
EB> in 1 million years. All that we now imagine and see as
EB> science fiction (light speed, time travel etc.) we will
EB> probably be able to do. Look back just 70 or 80 years. The
EB> science fiction of that time was submarines and rocket
EB> ships.
EB>
EB> How big is the universe really? I guess that depends on how
EB> big we realy are. Could an electron in the center of a 486
EB> CPU see the outer edges? Would it even know that other
EB> forces (chipsets etc.) actually controlled it’s universe
EB> before it completed it’s journey and went to ground?
EB>
EB> The mere lack evidence of existence may not be enough to
EB> disprove existence.

There is no effort to prove existence. The requirement is
to demonstrate some form of existence in the first place else, as
with ETIs, it is all amusing speculation and no more.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю All right, Koresh, make my day. — Reno
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (431)
To: All 12 Oct 94 21:20:10
Subject: Crime Law

RH> -> 2/3rd to propose, 3/4 to ratify.

RH> My mistake.

I posted not so much to point out a mistake as to have an
opportunity to make this follow up point.

Getting a 2/3rds majority in Congress or from the states for
a Concon is not a trivial matter. In Congress it takes a lot of
organization to get 2/3rds in one vote. With the states for the
Concon states have voted for and withdrawn their approval (open
to SC determination at this point) over years.

That the states might give 3/4 approval IF they were all
required to vote on one day is negligable and we might not have
even the Bill of Rights were that a requirement. That supporters
in a state can orchestrate a positive vote for an amendment as is
done in Congress in proposing an amendment over a period of
years, if not forever depending upon the conditions on the
approval process or the lack of same, is perhaps the only reason
we have amendments to our Constitution.

This is one of the reasons why social engineering by
“regulation” rather than prohibition is so popular. Consider how
easy it was to make the case for universal franchise for 18 years
olds based upon military service. Consider how impossible it
would have been to prohibit them from drinking at 18 given the
same argument of military service.

As it stands amending the Constitution is as much a
political art form as passing a law such as the Crime Bill. It
has little to do with the will of the people. And that is by
design, not by chance.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (446)
To: Ken Pangborn 12 Oct 94 22:31:10
Subject: Lady soldiers in haiti

KP> -> Women are authorized to fly combat missions in the air
KP> -> force. There are no womem serving in the combat arms mos’s,
KP> -> such as infantry, tankers, etc.

KP> Women have been ORDERED to be allowed to fly Combat
KP> for the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps despite NOT
KP> making the qualifications applied to MALE pilots! While a
KP> MALE must demonstrate the ability to perform in a 10 g
KP> environment, women only have to perform in a 3 g
KP> environment! Gonna make dogfights REAL interising! The
KP> FIRST combat we send the airial pussy-posse out on is gonna
KP> END all the bitching and whining we have been subjected to
KP> for the past 15 years. Gonna be LOTS of dead broads! You
KP> see, the enemy pilots are first gonna blow the bitches out
KP> of the sky, and then laugh their asses off at the Court
KP> Order the broads try to wave in their face saying they can
KP> fly at only 40% of their capability to make it EQUAL! Women
KP> have the terminal STUPIDS! Why the hell do we let them
KP> vote? The duumb bitches INSIST on going into combat only
KP> 40% prepared! Do you get more stupid than that?

By the time the pussy-posse sees combat Pattycake will be
retired and the military will be condemned for inadequate
training of women. Under the “rule” of not engaging in politics,
no one will speak out as to what really caused the problem.

But then, it is the way of feminists to get women killed for
lack of ability. Pointing that out is the end of a career for
anyone in the military.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Get Janet a fiddle.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (447)
To: Mark Simmons 12 Oct 94 22:35:10
Subject: literal Bible

MS> LF> Here’s a couple of questions for all of the literalist
MS> LF> fundies and creationists out there. 🙂

MS> First, I’m not a scientific creationist.

You could not be. There are none.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 4. The Feds can get away with it.
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+++ююююю r_941021 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (105)
To: Jj Judkins 17 Oct 94 22:42:10
Subject: Civilians And Assaulяяяяя

On 10/14/94 JJ JUDKINS to BERT BYFIELD on Civilians And Assaulяяяяя

JJ> BB> obstacle to buying the coolest handguns is your ego. Lots
JJ> BB> of people just don’t have the courage to buy one of those
JJ> BB> ultra-concealable, small caliber handguns sometimes called
JJ> BB> “Saturday Night Specials.”

JJ> Bert , I USE a .22 LR. Thanks for posting this article
JJ> that makes my point. Of course mine isn’t a Saturday night
JJ> Special.

Why don’t you two stop up and assault me some time.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save them.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: Sol Steinberg 17 Oct 94 22:45:10
Subject: Clinton stands

SS> CB> Gun control? Banning a few assault weapons is solving
SS> CB> the gun control issue? Does it even phase the gun
SS> CB> control issue? Is that a real stand, or just a
SS> CB> poll-minded conclusion?

SS> I disagree with the Brady waiting period and I’m not sure
SS> about banning “assault” weapons, but the topic is Clinton
SS> stands. The person who initiated this subject said that
SS> Clinton didn’t take any. That is a lie.

He does takes stands, many of them. That is why folks like
you can cite one of them and imply he does not change.

SS> CB> Haiti? Rebuilding their country when we need to
SS> CB> rebuild ours first?

SS> People were being murdered in Haiti and we were in a
SS> position to stop it, or at least Clinton and I both think
SS> that. As a Jew who said, “Never again,”

It was post surrender Germans who painted Nie Wieder every
place they could as a threat that if WW I type reparations were
imposed again they would rise again. It had NOTHING to do with
Jews, period.

I applaud Clinton’s
SS> actions in Haiti and point out that we did not have to go
SS> to war – as we did in Grenada, Panama, and Desert Storm.

And you approve of the increase in violence and deaths that
the Clinton invasion caused? Why?

SS> CB> Stopping Haitian immigrants when Mexican immigrants are
SS> CB> walking in daily, in extremely larger numbers? Is he
SS> CB> taking a real stand, or his he really just trying to
SS> CB> prove himself in front of America and the world?

SS> Neither Bush nor Reagan (nor any other president) has been
SS> effective in blocking illegal immigration.

Only because we are humanitarian enough not to shoot them at
the border. A few bodies would it down overnight.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (117)
To: William Childress 18 Oct 94 00:35:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ar 1/яяяяя

WC> Atheists habitually ignore evidence which points
WC> toward the existence of God. This, of course, has nothing
WC> to do with the nature or quality of the evidence. Also,
WC> unfortunately, there are many modern scientists who are
WC> atheists. Therefore, I regard your observation as being
WC> off the mark.

You make a strange post, claiming there is evidence when
there is no evidence. I would have thought Christians would
refrain from lying but they and particularly you continue to do
so.

WC> KB> Actually, you’ve got it backwards again. Science deals
WC> KB> with data first, then theories which attempt to explain the
WC> KB> data. So far, the total count of observed deities – or
WC> KB> actions of deities – is zero. There is no data, therefore
WC> KB> there is nothing upon which to base a theory.

WC> No, the people who gather scientific data and
WC> develop scientific theories are hardly children. Actually,
WC> they’re adults with a well defined core of beliefs.

That statement makes you a liar.

WC> As for JESUS, HIS activities were observed and
WC> recorded.

As does this statement make you a liar. You are an active
sinner with no right to consider yourself a Christian.

Why do you actively neglect the evidence
WC> contained within the Scriptures?

There is no evidence in the scriptures, liar.

Also, why do you blindly
WC> ignore the secular sources which offer substantiation?

There are none, liar.

WC> Natural selection cannot explain how inorganic
WC> matter developed into life.

Again, you are a liar to suggest evolution deals with the
origins of life.

Additionally, scientific
WC> theories related to the origin of life are not easier to
WC> swallow than the biblical model.

To suggest there is a biblical model is also a lie, liar.

Faith is clearly a factor
WC> no matter which way you turn.

Faith in the stories of ignorant, goat-herding tribesmen
well describes you lying Christians.

WC> You assume too much! Many people have been exposed to the
WC> theories you embrace and reject them.

As in the sworn liars such as Gish drawing a paycheck from
the ICR. Learn to lie better and you can get paid for it also.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю First they came for Weaver and I did not speak. Then they
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+++ююююю r_941023 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (91)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Oct 94 12:01:10
Subject: A Polite Society

JJ> MG> There are used guns.

JJ> Matt, Don’t know about the price of firearms in Florida,
JJ> but even used weapons aren’t exactly cheap in Oklahoma..

No more expensive than a decent evening out for two. Less
than two tickets to a Springsteen “concert.” (One of those five
shot .22 LR derringers is on the order of one ticket.) Early
this year I saw a trade go down on a Dan Wesson .38 and 200MB
drive.

What do you consider expensive? What is your baseline
comparison? There should be no problem getting a gun for the
equivalent 2-4 months of cable or for women 2-4 new outfits.
Save $25 a month for a year and you can have most any handgun you
want if you don’t mind used.

Have you tried the gun shows or are you sticking with the
shops? Even the shops can have some bargains around here. All
the established gunshops are into the buy/sell/trade mode and the
new ones get established with deep discounts as in $450 vice $750
as I picked up earlier this year.

I am more familiar with Virginia and Potomac Arms / Hunter’s
Haven in Alexandria always had a good selection. .32 and .38 at
good prices were always available with .45 and 9mm most of the
time.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (92)
To: Frank Scheidt 18 Oct 94 12:27:10
Subject: Atheism

FS> FS> MG> It is amazing just how common supernatural phenomena are.
FS> FS> MG> Why just five years ago room temperature semi-conductors
FS> FS> MG> were all supernatural miracles. Hardly more than 200 years
FS> FS> MG> ago the movement of the planets was supernatural. 90 years
FS> FS> MG> ago radium was supernatural. 60 years ago the sun was a
FS> FS> MG> supernatural.

FS> FS> What gives you *that* idea, Matt? All of those events can
FS> FS> be explained by natural laws … Sheeeeeesh … don’t be so
FS> FS> superstitious, Matt.

FS> MG> In the time periods I have given the phenomena could NOT be
FS> MG> explained by natural law so at the time they were supernatural.
FS> MG> Are you trying to play dumb on me?

FS> But they *could* have. You see, Matt, they had exactly the
FS> same natural physical laws then that we have today. Do you
FS> suggest that, for example, the planets didn’t follow
FS> natural laws WHICH EXISTED SAY 200 YEARS AGO. I am certain
FS> that you are not.

How do you predict the future and know what “can be
explained” in the future? 400 years ago there was no concept
that there were physical laws. What are you predicting will
exist in 400 years? And how do you know? Please be specific.

How do you know your present supernatural can not be
explained by natural law or whatever may exist in a few hundred
years?

You are presuming precisely what we understand today is all
there will ever be and more erroneously assuming what we have
today was known in the past.

FS> FS> Huh? There are a *lot* of things which I don’t understand.
FS> FS> It isn’t *that* which makes them supernatural. Be
FS> FS> reasonable …

FS> MG> You said, “can not be explained by natural law.”

FS> And it *can’t* … can it? If so, kindly explain it.
FS> (BTW, Matt, that’s simply a rhetorical statement. I don’t
FS> really expect you to explain the Big Bang.)

Name what cannot be explained by natural law now or forever
in the future. (BTW: I did explain the Big Bang. You are
simply unprepared to understand the explanation. I could suggest
a course of study if you would like to understand the
explanation.)

FS> MG> knowledge of natural law is always increasing the bounds of
FS> MG> what you view as supernatural are always receding. If it
FS> MG> depended upon your ability to understand, as you insist it
FS> MG> does with the Big Bang, then much that is explained by
FS> MG> natural law remains supernatural.

FS> But I *don’t* claim that natural law or the supernatural
FS> depends upon my ability to understand. There are *many*
FS> things which I don’t understand yet I’m certain that they
FS> all comply with natural laws.

Explain how you know the limitations on what can for all
future time be explained by natural law when scientists do not.

FS> MG> That is the consequence of your position.

FS> Correction: That is the consequence of your *distortion*
FS> of my position.

Your presumption that you can speak of what you do not know.

FS> FS> What you say is utterly impossible. It’s like saying black
FS> FS> becomes white by learning and research. Black is black.
FS> FS> White is white. Natural is natural. Supernatural is
FS> FS> supernatural.

FS> MG> Such a trivial example. Black does become white when all
FS> MG> brighter light sources are excluded. That is the old trick of
FS> MG> looking very closely at black velvet while lighting only the part
FS> MG> looked at. It is very white. It sort of gets the idea across to
FS> MG> gradeschoolers.

FS> I could have chosen a better example …

Please do.

FS> MG> You have stated the ability to explain separates the two
FS> MG> whereas the ability to explain constantly increases. Thus
FS> MG> in time the supernatural must decrease.

FS> That’s a example of *faith* in action, isn’t it, Matt? You
FS> assume that what has happened in the past will happen in
FS> the future, isn’t that true?

And upon what else can you base an estimate of the future?
I would certainly hold that assumption is much better than yours;
yours being that you have the infused knowledge to know the
limits of natural law such that you can propound there can always
be things that must be supernatural.

Extrapolation of a series of
FS> events can be dangerous and misleading. It’s true, we *do*
FS> keep learning new things, but there’s no reason to believe
FS> (or to *disbelieve* for that matter) that we’ll understand
FS> the supernatural one day.

Your examples of the supernatural please.

If you dispute that, then point
FS> out even *one* supernatural event in the past which can be
FS> explained today.

I know of no supernatural events ever having occurred.
Perhaps you could list a few for me.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (93)
To: William Childress 18 Oct 94 12:46:10
Subject: ATHEISM

WC> MG> What there may be is pure speculation. Anyone can
WC> MG> accept the possibility but without evidence of existence it
WC> MG> is worthless speculation.

WC> Blind men cannot see the LIGHT, but that doesn’t
WC> preclude its existence. LIGHT exists whether or not blind
WC> men are equipped to view it. However, it’s tragic to
WC> discover that many are born with the right equipment and
WC> willfully choose not to use it.

Nor does it preclude the existence of a magic, abyssinian
vole either. It simply says there is no evidence for it.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (94)
To: William Childress 18 Oct 94 12:47:10
Subject: Bible

WC> MG> Why are you going through all this torture to avoid the
WC> MG> plain, written word that he purchased the field?

WC> Why do you ignore his reasoning when secularists
WC> have applauded similar instances? Are you stating that
WC> people have never been credited with purchases brought
WC> about through the participation of another?

When there are NO OTHERS mentioned it is difficult to see
why others invent their existence. Perhaps you can explain why
they have to be invented?

BTW: The priests would have been unclean to handle blood
money, something they would have avoided. Who are you going to
invent now?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (95)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Oct 94 12:51:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS

JJ> MG> They are already arguing we should pay $5 a gallon for
JJ> MG> gasoline because Europe does.

JJ> It figures.. What do they think, it is a status symbol to
JJ> pay higher prices?
JJ>
JJ> I thought the reason they paid higher prices was because
JJ> they had to import almost all of the oil..

I had always thought the reason was that when cars were new
the nobility was still in control of Europe and it was a way to
limit cars to the upper class. Someone came back with a tortured
explanation that was different but it was short on the dates to
support the explanation. At the time cars were getting started
up to say the 1950s Europe had all the oil it needed, the Ploesti
oil fields being a prize of WW II.

In addition the ridiculous taxes are only on gasoline not on
all oil products. Of course once the taxes are entrenched and
being used to pay for something it is trivial to tell the
electorate it will lose its gold watch (schools, police
protection, whatever it holds important) if those taxes are
reduced.

JJ> I can see no logical reason for that type of gas increase,
JJ> or is this Waffles new Idea to pay for the Health care
JJ> plan?

This is always proposed as a general revenue raising but is
“justified” by dependence upon foreign oil. The lie of that
justification is that it would apply to both domestic and foreign
oil. The only way to make it work to decrease dependence would
be to apply it to foreign oil only.

JJ> MG> England at least taxes TV ownership. I do not know about
JJ> MG> radio.

JJ> Well, live and learn. Didn’t know that. Doesn’t suprise
JJ> me though. They have to have revenue somewhere to pay for
JJ> the Royal Family’s indescretions.. 🙂

The theory is it pays for the documentaries on cheese
production made by the BBC.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (96)
To: Edward Hudock 18 Oct 94 23:47:10
Subject: BIBLE LIES

EH> BS>Nonsense

EH> BS> Such twisting and wriggling makes a laughing stock of the
EH> BS> fundie clai to simple literal interpretation.

EH> Literal interpretation must occur after a study of the
EH> Word and while comparing Scripture with Scripture. Taking
EH> one portion of Scripture out of context is why so many
EH> cults and fanatics are out there…

I see. Literal can only happen after you have determined
which literal words conflict with what you have decided it has to
mean to conform with what it does not say.

That is very clear and simply stated. Thank you.

To state it more simply, you do not give a damn what it
really says only what you want it to mean.

EH> BTW: My father-in-law bought my wife and I a car MONTHS
EH> after he died. Can YOU figure out how?

Sounds like fun. What is the answer? Please answer in
terms that are legally valid either today or in Jerusalem in 30
AD.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (97)
To: Ann Ross 19 Oct 94 01:41:10
Subject: 1/2Mt.carmel

AR> Why do you believe unproven allegations about a
AR> “list.” I could just as easily take a small area
AR> like Arlington, Texas, and draw up a list of people
AR> who have been killed who worked for George W. Bush.

So do it but remember “worked for” and NOT campaigned for.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (98)
To: Jim Higgins 19 Oct 94 01:42:10
Subject: 1Parsec/3.26 Light Years

JH> LT> How many weeks are there in a light year?

JH> BD> 52.17857

JH> Wrong! A light year is a measure of distance not a measure
JH> of time.

How long is a nanosecond?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (99)
To: Ann Ross 19 Oct 94 01:43:10
Subject: 3/3:Mt.Carmel

AR> MG> You invent danger where there was no danger only to justify
AR> MG> condemning Koresh in your rather sick fantasy life.

AR> JJ> The only fantasy I had is that you were an intelligent
AR> JJ> human being, capable of carrying on a decent conversation.
AR> JJ> I was wrong. You can’t obviously.

AR> Now you understand Matty. He seems to write for
AR> the radical right wingers “news” letters and
AR> actively advocates insurrection in this country.

But keep in mind you advocate living on your knees only
because that is the only way you have gotten ahead in life.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (100)
To: All 19 Oct 94 02:14:10
Subject: MORE BATF

ЫЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЫ Original From: JIM PADGETT
Ы STOLEN Ы To: MATT GIWER
Ы STUFF Ы Date/Number: 10/16/94 – 0003909
ЫЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЫ On: GUNTALK – 0012 – GENPOL
———————————————————————–

MG> No, it is not just the BATF, it is not just the Treasury it
MG>is the entire damned government without exception until this
MG>ceases to occur.

I won’t argue that the “entire damned government” isn’t over the line,
but the BATF is out of control, and is wantonly reckless. Recently
in St. Louis a BATF raid at 3:30am on a residence left a woman wounded.
It seems that when confronted in the hallway by the near NAKED woman,
who did have a gun, the two agents, who were in full armour and behind
bullet proof shields, had no alternative? but to shoot her! WHAT BS!
To top it all off, the search, which included two other locations
did not produce any contraband or the named suspect. Their only
statement to the media was “He MUST have been tipped off”.

Sound familiar?

I suggest that every time you run across one of BATF’s reckless
blunders, and there are plenty, write your congressmen and include a
copy of the press coverage. They can and should be shutdown.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (101)
To: All 19 Oct 94 02:15:10
Subject: MORE BATF

JP> MG> No, it is not just the BATF, it is not just the
JP> MG> Treasury it is the entire damned government without
JP> MG> exception until this ceases to occur.

JP> I won’t argue that the “entire damned government”
JP> isn’t over the line, but the BATF is out of control,
JP> and is wantonly reckless. Recently in St. Louis a
JP> BATF raid at 3:30am on a residence left a woman
JP> wounded. It seems that when confronted in the hallway
JP> by the near NAKED woman, who did have a gun, the two
JP> agents, who were in full armour and behind bullet
JP> proof shields, had no alternative? but to shoot her!
JP> WHAT BS! To top it all off, the search, which
JP> included two other locations did not produce any
JP> contraband or the named suspect. Their only
JP> statement to the media was “He MUST have been tipped
JP> off”.
JP>
JP> Sound familiar?

Were I in a position to make a declaration I would certainly
proclaim the BATF enemies of the entire US and authorize everyone
to shoot first. After all, they are only revenooers.

Until this wanton slaughter stops, not excuses are
acceptable.

In the early 70s Blacks got fed up with cops showing up a
trouble calls and killing everyone in sight. They started
forming bands, all armed, and making trouble calls. They shot
every cop that showed up. After a year of this the cops called a
truce.

There are lessons to be learned from history. That is one
of them.

JP> I suggest that every time you run across one of
JP> BATF’s reckless blunders, and there are plenty, write
JP> your congressmen and include a copy of the press
JP> coverage. They can and should be shutdown.

I point out that Congress recommended they be disbanded and
Reagan said it could not be done.

Therefore we KNOW without question that petition for redress
of grievance is worthless in this case. Therefore we need to
take the necessary actions our government have found itself
incapable of doing. We know from history one method that works.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю “Give Corruption a Chance.” Matt Giwer
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (102)
To: All 19 Oct 94 02:59:10
Subject: IMPORT BAN??

ЫЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЫ Original From: JEFFREY ADKINS
Ы STOLEN Ы To: ALL
Ы STUFF Ы Date/Number: 10/17/94 – 0001927
ЫЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЫ On: GUNTALK – 0002 – MEMBER
———————————————————————–

Has anyone else heard about this, and if so, *exactly* what’s going on
here:

Issue 1426-Oct 14: “As Gun Week goes to press, representatives of
firearm importers are meeting to decide what action to take in the face
of a virtual halt in all firearms imports into the US that already has
been in place for several months. Officials of the BATF have admitted
to importers that the action was based not on any law but on orders
straight from the White ehouse. Importers had hoped to simply work
quietly with the BATF to solve the problem, but now it appears they
will be forced to go public. Several prominent members of Congress
have agreed to spearhead their effort.”

… Married. To the Second Amendment.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
— MMGR v3.52
ю GUN-TALK: NRA MEMBERS ONLY CONFERENCE

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (103)
To: All 19 Oct 94 03:01:10
Subject: IMPORT BAN??

JA> Has anyone else heard about this, and if so, *exactly*
JA> what’s going on here:
JA>
JA> Issue 1426-Oct 14: “As Gun Week goes to press,
JA> representatives of firearm importers are meeting to decide
JA> what action to take in the face of a virtual halt in all
JA> firearms imports into the US that already has been in place
JA> for several months. Officials of the BATF have admitted to
JA> importers that the action was based not on any law but on
JA> orders straight from the White ehouse. Importers had hoped
JA> to simply work quietly with the BATF to solve the problem,
JA> but now it appears they will be forced to go public.
JA> Several prominent members of Congress have agreed to
JA> spearhead their effort.”

Does anyone have to ask what is going on here? It is
exactly what I have been saying for years.

This is just another step toward gun confiscation. If
anyone doubted it was coming this direct order from the White
House should remove all doubt.

This government is intent upon dictatorial control of the
United States and before that happens it knows it must disarm the
citizens.

This ban means all importation is federal felony smuggling
from now on.

What to hear the media if the WH is pushed far enough to
have to comment publically?

=====

As the Crime bill “cut off” the source of guns to criminals
Billie Jerk was “forced” to respond to the smuggling of arms to
baby killing gun users. He will display dozens of guns his order
prevented from being smuggled into the country.

The media will publically masturbate over his heroic stance
in the face of the criminal gun lobby.

The NRA will respond with statistics as usual.

=====

Like it or not, if true, this is Concord.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (104)
To: All 19 Oct 94 03:34:10
Subject: WHO WAS TENCH COXE???

ЫЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЯЫ Original From: WESLEY JONES
Ы STOLEN Ы To: RICH ZUCHOWSKI
Ы STUFF Ы Date/Number: 10/13/94 – 0003956
ЫЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЬЫ On: GUNTALK – 0007 – LAW
———————————————————————–

RZSG> “As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before t
RZSG> may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be
RZSG> occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their powe
RZSG> the injury of fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next
RZSG> article in their right to keep and bear private arms.”
RZ
RZI would be willing to donate some of my hard earned money towards having
RZa monument erected on the site of the burned out Branch Davidians
RZcompound with these words engraved on it.

Great idea Rich, the words almost seem to have been penned
with Waco in mind.

I’ll donate if someone would get it together.

Best, wes
—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: Linda Terrell 19 Oct 94 19:16:10
Subject: WOMEN’S RIGHTS

LT> MG> Consider Mother Teresa. If you want to talk about
LT> MG> really oppressed, shoved into the background, lack of
LT> MG> recognition how much have you ever heard about Father
LT> MG> Teresa? He is obviously the power behind the throne.

LT> He’s the Pope

Father Tereski?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: Jim Higgins 19 Oct 94 21:26:10
Subject: Armed March

JH> But so willing to allow candidates like Stern to run under
JH> their banner that they are likely to remain that way. Their
JH> credibility is not even decently established and anything
JH> which tends to establish it better has an unfortunate
JH> tendency to be cancelled by something like Stern… or
JH> worse.

Do you mean like Reagan hurt the Republicans? What am I
missing?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco lesson 4. The Feds can get away with it.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: Charles Hill 19 Oct 94 21:29:10
Subject: Behind Leviticus

CH> BS> Are you saying the infamous Leviticus passage is not true?
CH> BS> Are you saying it was “written” referring to something that
CH> BS> didn’t exist?

CH> You’ve apparently concluded that Mr Scheidt is one of those
CH> fundamentalist types who believes that every word in
CH> Scripture is literally true. He is not, and has said so
CH> more than once.

What one says and how one behaves are quite different
things. Those who deny being fundies generally do so so that
they may weasel out of having to defend every word while choosing
the specific literal words they want.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (109)
To: All 19 Oct 94 21:33:10
Subject: CA prop 187

Considering all the time we are spending on CA prop 188 is
it not more interesting to deal with 187? Throw the illegals out
of the system? It sounds like great policy to me. If they do
not like it they can go back where they came from and they are
here illegally in the first place.

They are not Americans. They are Mexican citizens with no
business here.

That the federal government won’t do a damn thing about it
and forces California (and every other state to support them) is
ludicrous. And the best opposition to it is to claim everyone
who is against supporting illegals is a racist.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (110)
To: Paul West 19 Oct 94 21:39:10
Subject: Capitol 800 Number

PW> Well, it was bound to happen. The toll free number to the
PW> U.S. capitol, (800) 768-2221, has been disconnected. That
PW> is too bad but many many people used it to stop some very
PW> bad legislation while it was available.
PW>
PW> Congratulations fellow Citizens!

Why do you consider it good that they have cut themselves
off from much public contact? The only thing it reads like to me
is that they have just moved the Revolution Watch up a few
seconds.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (111)
To: All 19 Oct 94 21:44:10
Subject: Militia Question

There is talk of the formation of citizen militias today as
there never has been since they went out of style. So I am
asking for information. Do you have direct knowledge of any such
militias (newspaper, TV included)? Can you give a general idea
where they are forming and how you heard of it?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (112)
To: Phillip Robertson 19 Oct 94 22:11:10
Subject: Hemp

PR> Does anyone want to talk about Marijuana? I know that
PR> it’s hardly controversial compared to most of the other
PR> topics here, but it IS illegal to smoke it, although many
PR> people continue to do so.

Fido carries a NORML conference. Why not ask your moderator
for it?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (113)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 19 Oct 94 22:14:10
Subject: IN YOUR CANADA NEXT

BS> First of all, we don’t have any figures on “carriers”, only
BS> estimates that have proved to be wild in the past.

If you are talking HIV vice ARC cases then the average time
to conversion divided by the average time to death is a good
enough estimate. Multiply that number by the number of ARC cases
and you have the number of carriers. The earliest estimates of
the number of carriers was rather accurate. The departure from
accuracy got worse up until two years ago when the method of
estimating was revised based upon the leveling off of the number
of new cases per year.

Wild is not the word for it.

BS> The latest figures I saw on AIDS cases had it 47% due to
BS> gay sex transmission, 9% due to heterosexual sex
BS> transmission.

And when were these figures the latest?

And what were the rest of the case percentages?

And please include the mixed category of both homosexual and
IV drug users that being the most likely path for HIV into the
drug using community.

AND it is not honest to fail to point out that the hetero
cases are some 95+% women who have had sex with bi-sexual or IV
drug using men. That is a different slant that saying
heterosexual. Before the drug users became common cases straight
female cases were all from bi-sexuals save for the blood and
blood product infections.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (114)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 19 Oct 94 22:24:10
Subject: INCONSISTENT SURVEY

BS> The study doesn’t need outside critics: it is internally
BS> inconsistent. It has a refusal rate of over 20%, yet dares
BS> to publish a 2.8% statistic for a socially unpopular group
BS> who would have reason to fear sanctions if confidentiality
BS> were breached.
BS>
BS> It accepts that only 2.8% are gay or bisexual, while also
BS> accepting that 11% find receiving anal intercourse
BS> appealing.

Of which 8.2% were female.

BS> Likewise while accepting 2.8% as gay or bisexual, it finds
BS> that 6% find sex with another man an appealing idea.

That is called bisexual.

BS> I’m afraid the survey has internal contradictions that call
BS> its conclusions, at least as presented in the popular
BS> press, into serious question.

Rather the real point is that prior to this survey Kinsey
had conducted the ONLY formal survey worthy of the name. He
found ONLY 6% gay from a rather selected population. The 10% was
a number pulled out of thin air and NEVER had any valid support.

Of course if you would like to cite a valid survey that
supports 10% please feel free to do so. And please not the one
that said have you ever had a desire for a man and then counted
one time as a hit. Do that and a survey asking the opposite
question would prove a gay is really hetero.

In the interim the actual conclusion of the survey in
question was that 1% of the population is in fact homosexual and
that leaving things as open as possible was the only way to get
to your 2.8% figure.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (115)
To: Chris Boyd 19 Oct 94 22:37:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory

CB> I claimed Omni as my source to make sure readers in
CB> this echo would take it as legitamate, and not just
CB> pure rantings.

But in so doing you demonstrated it was pure ranting, merely
that it was not your ranting.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (125)
To: All 20 Oct 94 19:27:10
Subject: KPOC, The Waco Incident

The Waco Incident
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/20>

This is an unpaid advertisement for a videotape everyone
should have and watch and show to anyone who will sit still long
enough to watch. The video is entitled, “The Waco Incident.” It
is available from KPOC-TV, 114 West Central, Ponca City,
Oklahoma, 74601, for $23.45 postpaid.
It tells the clearest and the most damning highlights of the
the Branch Davidians story from the first senseless attack to the
final murders and destruction of the evidence. What is left out
of the story only supports what is told in 100 minutes. It is an
excellent use of 100 minutes.
Those who have been following it are going to see or hear
little new to them. What they will see is the story put together
from beginning to end in one coherent and very viewable piece of
investigative reporting. It is not without its human interest
emotional content mixed with its factual content.
What distinguishes it from other tapes is that it does not
dwell upon the tedious conspiratorial details. Rather it takes
the network tapes at face value and dwells upon what they mean in
context.
For example, it does not try to make a case for how the four
BATF agents died or whether or not they were the ones going into
the second floor window or that they were Clinton bodyguards.
Rather it shows the tapes of the attack with a voice over of the
Branch Davidian 911 call that happened at the same time and lets
the viewer judge who is responsible for what.
It does not pull punches in any respect. When the
description is murder it uses the word murder. It does not use
death. It does not use the passive voice. In doing so it uses
these terms with reference to supportable points without going
into the details. It is the kind of blunt talk the rare
references in the mainstream media couch in non-judgmental
terms.
For example, it uses as a point of departure the known and
established effects of CS gas and its burn products without
digressing into “proving” them. The fact that the products upon
heating are hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen chloride and carbon
monoxide are matter of factly with the manufacturer as the source
of the information. It clearly points out the case of autopsy
reports listing the cause of death as smoke inhalation simply
neglects to mention what kind of smoke.
It does a matter of fact interview with a retired army
helicopter pilot who was recalled to active duty solely for the
purpose of participating in the BATF with his statement he was
sworn to secrecy regarding what happened in the attack. Why him?
It is unstated other than that he is a Vietnam veteran and the
tactic in Vietnam was to initiate an attack with helo fire into
the roof of a building prior to the ground attack. You pick a
reason, you can hear his own words.
Following this it carries a taped interview with the
Commanding Officer of Fort Hood recounting the reporters being
stonewalled by the government and pointing out that he is
stonewalling them. In this case the stonewalling is specifically
the criminal use of the military while the Commanding Officer
reiterates that he follows the law.
From the reference to the statements of three Texas judges
that the warrant does not satisfy the requirements for such a
warrant to the murderous deviation from the final attack plan the
tape is damning to the government.
There are no exaggerations here. There are no conspiracies
here. There is nothing you are asked to believe that is beyond
what is stated and shown. It is clear, it is factual, it is all
supported directly or by passing reference.
Regarding its value compared to the other tapes. I had
shown one of them to a person who knew little of the events at
Waco. That conspiracy tape made little impression. This one
elicited the comment, “I didn’t understand what it was all about
before.” Now she wants us to visit Waco and where the survivors
are imprisoned and conduct interviews.
If you you want to see it all in one place, if you want
others to see it, this is the tape to have. If you have local
talk show people who have not seen it, lend them your copy, buy
them a copy of their own. Above all, advertise it. Let people
know it exists.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
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+++ююююю r_941025 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (66)
To: Ann Ross 1 Oct 94 13:08:10
Subject: “won”

AR> AR> Since it is so clear after all this time you will
AR> AR> never be intelligent enough to “get it,” I have to
AR> AR> TELL you that you are so inferior that nothing you
AR> AR> ever say will have the ability to even faze me.

AR> MG> Not even if we talk about your weight?

AR> Go right ahead – we tall ‘un’s are a proud of not
AR> having the problem you short nerds do.

You mean like a 6’6″ Twiggy?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (67)
To: Ann Ross 1 Oct 94 13:08:10
Subject: Huh?

AR> MG> As for the time for tensions, Clancy’s latest is about the
AR> MG> worst case short of starting over. The countries that
AR> MG> matter have worked together against the Soviet Union for
AR> MG> nearly half a century. Russia is starting from scratch.

AR> Did you know that Clancy is supporting Ollie North.
AR> He must be trying to get THE book – he can’t be
AR> that stupid.

Military types understand each other much better than
civilians can ever understand the military or each other. Were
you to work at it you might have a chance of understanding why.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (68)
To: Mark Riedel 1 Oct 94 17:55:10
Subject: ATHEISM

MR> Well, I’ll agree that the implication is that god is
MR> non-existent, but not that, in the alternative, he would
MR> be irrelevant. If you’ve got a supreme being who is going
MR> around creating universes and life forms, whether he
MR> chooses to make himself patently obvious or not, he is
MR> certainly not irrelevant.

In the absence of any evidence of existence then hiding is
the only proper description.

MR> KB> Of course, the argument “every event has a cause” can then
MR> KB> be applied to god. What caused god? Oh, god was
MR> KB> self-caused or uncaused. Hmm, well, that violates the
MR> KB> entire premise, so, if one wishes to now

MR> Well, I’m not sure it violated the entire premise, though.

In absence of any justification as to why it should stop at
a point where a thing for which there is no evidence did
something that can be adequately explained without reference to
it is completely arbitrary.

MR> I’m sure the argument would be that god exists outside of
MR> time as we know it and is never-beginning and never-ending
MR> and that all events can be traced back to him.

And what is such an argument save an attempt to salvage the
idea of a god and explain its non-evidenciary nature?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (69)
To: Frank Scheidt 1 Oct 94 18:00:10
Subject: Atheism

FS> KB> However, your point has an implicit assumption within it –
FS> KB> that the universe itself follows the physical laws present
FS> KB> within it. Until this point can be substantiated, your
FS> KB> claim has no foundation.

FS> Quite the contrary. My contention is that one cannot
FS> explain a SUPERnatural event with natural laws.

One has to demonstrate there are supernatural events to
begin with rather than simply presenting an argument from
ignorance that everything unexplained is supernatural.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (70)
To: Andrew Cummins 1 Oct 94 18:05:10
Subject: BIBLE

AC> BS> 1. Your book of myths says in one place that Judas bought
AC> BS> the “Blood Field”, but in another place it says the priests
AC> BS> bought it. Which is the truth?

AC> It’s as simple as the priests acting as agents for Judas.
AC> They bought the field with his money. If you don’t respect
AC> the Bible, why don’t you just leave it alone?

No place does it say the priests acted as his agent. You
are adding to the bible which carries quite a condemnation
according to some interpretations.

You might also explain why the highest non-roman authority
in the area would act as an agent of an assassin while you are at
it.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (71)
To: Andrew Cummins 1 Oct 94 18:09:10
Subject: BIG BANG

AC> SB> In quantum physics, it can be shown that the energy
AC> SB> inherent in one cubic metre of vacuum is equivalent to that
AC> SB> required to boil the Earth’s oceans. For more discussion on
AC> SB> such, you should join PHYSICS and inquire of the
AC> SB> physicists.

AC> Heh heh. I suppose you’re just trying to prove that there
AC> is nothing too absurd for you to believe.

Rather something creationists are not bright enough to
understand. Even Genesis is to hard for them.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (72)
To: Andrew Cummins 1 Oct 94 18:13:10
Subject: Evolution

AC> IL> We can find past events by evidence left behind and use that as
AC> IL> proof– and we have.

AC> You must have scientific evidence confused with
AC> circumstantial evidence. A typical error of evolutionuts.

Strangely physical evidence is not circumstantial evidence.
Ask any attorney. You are lying again.

Want to tell us there are and are not salt beds around the
Dead Sea again?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (73)
To: Willie Martin 1 Oct 94 18:18:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

WM> > WM> Send your SASE to:
WM> > WM>
WM> > WM> Willie Martin
WM> > WM> P.O. Box 15280
WM> > WM> Arlington, Texas 76015

WM> > I’m curious as to two things. One, it seems (from your
WM> > wording) that you can
WM> > use the Bible to prove the flood was local to one region. Is
WM> > this so?

WM> Yes I can.

WM> > Two, why don’t you just post your study here? Is it very
WM> > long?

WM> Its about 20 Post of 60 lines long. I have not posted it
WM> because if people really want to know the truth then they
WM> will expend the energy to send an SASE to get a copy. If
WM> not then they really don’t want to know anyway.

How do 22 pages fit into an standard SASE? Did you forget
to say 9×12 envelop and five stamps?

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (74)
To: All 1 Oct 94 20:08:10
Subject: Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen

Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

I have refrained for two weeks from commenting upon the
unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Haiti. I have done this
to give President Clinton a chance to get his act act together on
the Island. I am certain he appreciates the breathing space.
This is called Operation Restore Democracy. In the two
weeks it appears better named Operation Cry Havoc. Judging only
by an obviously free press before and after the invasion the
deaths have obviously increased.
Added to the deaths have been looting, rioting and general
mayhem. And in this US forces have more or less stood by to
watch. It is obvious the invasion triggered this increase in the
violence in Haiti and equally obvious the troops directed by the
President are doing nothing about it.
I have not kept a daily tally but my strong impression is
that the violence is increasing daily. Also there appear to be
two partisan types of violence, the deaths of Aristide supporters
and looting by Aristide supporters. I do not wish to be
misunderstood here, there is no connection between the looting
and legitimate shooting looters.
The acceleration of violence due to the US intervention
appears to be causing a break down in Haitian society. Of course
I did see some Congressman on the CBS Evening News respond to a
question on violence that he didn’t see any. The CBS reporter
found quite a bit of it. When asked if he thought the US could
have done something about it (some bludgeoning deaths and
injuries) he pointed out there were US tanks only two blocks
away.
But then one of the justifications for sending troops that
was repeated even after General Cedras agreed to leave was to
prevent the breakdown of the social order. Yet there is not the
slightest evidence the US is doing one thing to prevent it.
There is every evidence the US has caused it.
I am not ready to declare I was correct that the invasion
was a bad idea. I am going to point out that as the killings,
lootings, and rioting increase that if and when the US moves to
prevent further social breakdown that our troops will be required
to kill more people to do it. That will make more enemies for
the US. The more enemies the troops create the more members of
the insurgency, the more people will carry that hatred to their
graves with their actions.
Had there been a rational plan the first step would have
gone as planned, to secure strategic locations. The second did
not occur, take control of the government. The third step would
have been to establish martial law. The failure to implement the
second and third is inexcusable.
This was an invasion. It is an occupation. It is being
treated as a training exercise. Funny, I remember calling it
that. I did make the mistake of saying it would be with
bullets. As it is they might as well be disarmed.
Once committed to a course of action it is incumbent upon
the man in charge to act in accordance with that course of
action. The US clearly is not doing so.
In failing to do so the US has increased the loss of life.
The US is going to start being the cause of more loss of life in
restoring order. And there was no reason to have let that order
slip away in the first place.
Of course slip away is hardly the word for it. It was
foreseeable to the point where it was an announced objective of
the invasion. That it has been let happen can not be explained
by anything other than it was only rhetoric and never part of the
plan in the first place.
In other words, the famous “nothing speech” of President
Clinton to justify contained one more lie, that the occupation
would preserve the social order. He said it only. He had no
intention nor were there any plans to do so. We were sold
another bill of goods.
This man may or may not loathe the military. He has
absolutely no conception of what it means to use the military.
He appears to believe the way to do it is the same way he gets
votes, make a speech saying it and then the troops will do it.
In any event, it has been two weeks of nothing but events
contrary to the announced intentions and purpose of the
occupation. It is clear that had the US not taken action there
would have been less death and violence than there is now. It is
also clear that the buck stops in the Oval Office and if the
electorate really beliefs it is in control of the government,
those who voted for William Jefferson Blythe Clinton share the
responsibility.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (75)
To: Bert Byfield 2 Oct 94 02:02:10
Subject: Cats And Learned Beha

BB> LT> * KWQ/2 1.2g *Death? Life? I never did understand Zen

BB> Watch Kung Fu reruns.

The Teacher, The Grasshopper and the very big Watch.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (76)
To: All 2 Oct 94 09:29:00
Subject: Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen

Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Innocense is a pesky technicality in Israel.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (77)
To: All 2 Oct 94 09:30:00
Subject: Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen

Haiti, Clinton’s Playpen
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Innocense is a pesky technicality in Israel.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: Jackie Bradbury 21 Oct 94 19:15:10
Subject: Absenteeism

JB> MG> A nice career with 1.5 year vacations.

JB> Naaaahhh… a Prez campaign (which I’ve signed on to – I
JB> must have lost my mind with all the stress lately) can
JB> start up to two years (or more) before election day.

Billie Jeff started his December 1992 but still…

Good to hear you got into a Pres bid so soon in your career.

Willing to say for who or do you have to wait until they
announce?

The
JB> stuff I prefer, state and local campaigns, happen a lot –
JB> issue elections, special elections, and many city council
JB> elections fall outside of the every two years in November
JB> schedule. BTW: _issue_ elections are the campaign
JB> consultant’s bread and butter.

Reality comes crashing. Sort of like I found in
international arms dealing — is it selling spare cable and such.

JB> But I will get a two month “vacation” (mostly) after
JB> election day. Heavenly! I’ll get to sleep late again!

Sleeping isn’t good for you. Makes you grow shot at
revenooers and miss.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: Charles Hill 21 Oct 94 19:21:10
Subject: The future of futures

CH> MG> I suggest everyone will agree guessing what anything might
CH> MG> be worth a century from now is at best a parlor game.

CH> Replace “century” with “year”, and it’s not much
CH> different….cgh

Which does bring up an interesting. The futures markets are
mostly 12 months with a few (have to look them up) up to two
years, except T-Bill offerings which can run up to 20 years. As
they are futures themselves there exists only a spot market in
them.

I just waded through Clancy’s latest. If it hadn’t been for
my first article on this going back to April or so folks might be
accusing me of copying but he really does not go deep enough into
what it really means.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (191)
To: All 15 Oct 94 14:28:10
Subject: REAL VALUE

Although I would greatly appreciate being investigated by
the Securities and Exchange Commission for this message (just to
post a real inside joke to the boards) consider it disclaimed.

In line with my posts on the value of money, I am hereby
creating a futures market in tangible assets. I am now taking
options on any and all commodities. There is only one catch, the
earliest effective date of any option is 15 October 2094.

I suggest everyone will agree guessing what anything might
be worth a century from now is at best a parlor game. The
Econuts will be betting on lumber and air while the technologists
will be trying to quantify the value of information that far
ahead.

Of course I have a couple hedges here. No one reading this
will be alive (save the SEC descendants will try to exhume my
body for prosecution.) But all of us are planning on some form
of asset for the future in some form, insurance, social security,
investments, whatever. They are denominated in dollars in some
manner, whether fixed or variable interest or politically
determined dollars.

We are all making a best guess for the future as to what the
thing will be worth in terms of dollars. Given the uncertainty
of the “thing” it keeps an army of investment counselors
employed. What commodity could dollars possibly be based upon if
there is no agreement as to the value of anything even within our
own lifetimes?

And who was smart enough to switch from US Steel to
MacDonalds ten years ago? Could fast food ever be a better
investment than steel?

=====

ps I am also taking side bets we may or may not be using the
same calendar system a century hence.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (192)
To: All 15 Oct 94 15:06:10
Subject: WOMEN’S RIGHTS

Women claim they are oppressed? They are always in the
background? Never get recognized?

Consider Mother Teresa. If you want to talk about really
oppressed, shoved into the background, lack of recognition how
much have you ever heard about Father Teresa? He is obviously
the power behind the throne.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (193)
To: John O’brien 15 Oct 94 23:13:10
Subject: STORY ARCHIVES (1)

JO> Surely this reflects socio-economic status much more than
JO> race. So how can one “remove” a very real segment of a
JO> nation’s society from the equation?

When data is taken by race it means only race. It is not
proper to assume anything other than race.

If you do then you find even more unpleasant things when you
“assume” only the blacks in that socio-economic category are
committing all those crimes. That is, it goes up by a factor of
four to six depending upon the income level used. That makes the
“race” look even blacker — so to speak.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (194)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 15 Oct 94 23:17:10
Subject: A POLITE SOCIETY

BS> MG> A better analogy would be charging the farmer
BS> MG> slaughtering his animals and bombing his house.
BS> MG>
BS> MG> The BATF is quite lucky Koresh was not as they
BS> MG> portrayed him. Else th all would have died.

BS> Koresh took over control of Mt. Carmel in an armed invasion
BS> in which the prior ruler was wounded. He had a documented
BS> history of armed violence.

The previous leader exhumed the body of a dead Davidian
woman and challenged Koresh to raise her from the dead. Koresh
went to the sheriff to complain but the sheriff said he needed
evidence, witnesses would do. Koresh and several other went out
there to become witnesses. There was an armed confrontation and
the other guy was hit in the finger.

He was arrested for desecration at first and a
methamphetamine lab was found in the house he lived in which lead
to additional charges.

As a result of this incident someone had been shot and the
sheriff phoned Koresh to ask him to come to his office and answer
an arrest warrant. After doing so Koresh was released on
condition that he turn in any guns that he possessed which he
did. The grand jury hearing the case failed to indict.

Most of the people had left the ranch before this happened.
After this arrest Koresh became the leader of those people who
wanted to move back to the ranch.

If that is what you consider a history of armed violence you
have a rather definition of it. Perhaps you can find a history
of armed violence in what really happened rather than what you
imagine happened. If you can, please describe what you consider
to be violent.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (195)
To: Psycho Path 15 Oct 94 23:29:10
Subject: Citizen Militias

PP> MG> Anyone paying attention knows that militias are forming all
PP> MG> over the country primarily in response to the excesses of
PP> MG> the government particularly at Waco.

PP> Matt, I think you miss two points. One, Congress has the
PP> power to organize, arm, and discipline the militia as well
PP> as the authority to prescribe its training.

That does appear to be the wording.

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of
the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia,
and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the
service of the United States, reserving to the States
respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority
of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by
Congress;

Two, it is not
PP> necessary to be a member of the militia in order to posess
PP> the right to keep and bear arms.

Where did I say it did? I am merely commenting upon their
being formed up.

2nd Amendment
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed.

That being the reason for the RTKBA, to form up militias.

The security of a state is threatened when the federal
government can move into a state and attack and kill its citizens
with impugnity.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘i’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (196)
To: Bert Byfield 15 Oct 94 23:36:10
Subject: Civilians And Assault We

BB> MG> Head shots, ma boy, head shots. With the small size
BB> MG> body target, the body on it is head sized. Quite
BB> MG> convenient for practice. Hit that “body” at 21 feet and
BB> MG> you can hit a head inside a house.

BB> *** a quote: (also, JJ and SS: listen up! ***
BB> The biggest obstacle to buying the coolest handguns is your
BB> ego. Lots of people just don’t have the courage to buy one
BB> of those ultra-concealable, small caliber handguns
BB> sometimes called “Saturday Night Specials.”
BB>
BB> Too bad.
BB>
BB> … Particularly stupid is their oft-expressed viewpoint
BB> that .22 or .25 caliber bullets are practically harmless.

I do not remember anyone saying harmless. I know a PI who
swears by his .25 with +P rounds. I have one myself although I
would not think of reaching for it first.

BB> Right. I’m sure Bobby Kennedy would agree that such
BB> bullets don’t do much damage at all — except he got his
BB> head blown off by one. No, wait, ask Jim Brady. See what
BB> he has to drool on the subject. The .22 long round that
BB> broke into his skull traveled around the inside of his head
BB> before it ran out of steam…

The issue is, given a choice between a large and small
caliber gun in the same circumstances, which would you use?
There are way too many cases of the .22 LR simply not penetrating
or doing the funny things that high velocity, low mass bullets
are famous for. In a choice between a .22 and a .25 I would take
the .25 simply to avoid that.

However, having at my option a .25 a .380 and a .45 can even
this author give me a good reason to reach for anything but the
.45? Were concealability the issue it is hard to imagine any but
the smallest person not being able to conceal a .380.

BB> Entirely too much emphasis is placed on a handgun with the
BB> magical power to disintegrate someone in a single shot.
BB> Any study of bullet wounds will show that what a bullet
BB> does once it hits the body is not predictable. Caliber,
BB> velocity, foot- fucking-pounds of energy are so much macho
BB> hee-hawing. Small caliber guns have a lot to recommend
BB> them, not the least being the kinds of ammo they fire.

However, there are serious studies of real world usage of
the different rounds and from that the factors have been
extracted that can predict the one shot stopping power of the
standard calibers and variations. These are statistical and are
only probabilities not predictions. They indicate that if you
are going to shoots craps nothing can guarantee a win but you
might as well use loaded dice if you can..

BB> … One last comment on the holy doctrine of “stopping
BB> power.” The ability to instantly kill or incapacitate a
BB> person with a single shot depends mostly on placement of
BB> the bullet — not the bullet itself. Cop files are full of
BB> instances of guys soaking up many rounds of
BB> “one-shot-stoppers” and continuing on.

And there are stories of a .223 round hitting a VC in the
ankle and enough shock being transmitted to the spinal cord to
cause death.

BB> … So fuck the snoots who tell you not to buy the
BB> “pea-shooters” and if you really have something in the
BB> one-shot stop category, buy a .32 and used Winchester
BB> Silvertip ammo. This bullet has been proven to have just
BB> as much fucking stopping power as a 9mm.

I would like the source of this claim but then it is not
you.

If one is buying new then there is not much spread in price
between calibers of equal quality / reputation guns. I paid more
for the Mauser .380 almost 20 years ago than I paid for a S&W .45
this year.

Ammunition prices are also all over the map as I can get .45
cheaper than either .25 or .380 (last I checked although
reloading would be another story.)

All else being equal I will stick with the .45 until I get
the urge to go back to a wheel gun (every 5-10 years) and then it
will be a .44 mag. I see no reason not to.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (197)
To: Ken Pangborn 16 Oct 94 00:05:10
Subject: Lady soldiers in haiti

KP> MG> But then, it is the way of feminists to get women killed
KP> MG> for lack of ability. Pointing that out is the end of a
KP> MG> career for anyone in the military.

KP> Well it sure as hell ani’t the fast track to make
KP> General!

But it is more fun to get an early retirement telling the
truth about Clinton.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Waco! Never again! Vote Libertarian!
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘i’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (233)
To: Ann Ross 16 Oct 94 18:26:10
Subject: Espy’s resignationяяяяяяя

AR> MG> As you know now, Clinton did respond by saying he was in
AR> MG> the hotel but did not remember meeting her. We already
AR> MG> have the State Trooper confirming they were in the same
AR> MG> room at the same time. Good enough for you? Of course
AR> MG> not. As you hold, Clinton has no balls.

AR> Can you tell me where I can see a copy of the
AR> trooper’s statement. I have seen two releases that
AR> quoted him as saying he DID NOT SEE HER ENTER HIS
AR> ROOM.

I read it on politics probably from Thomas Yoha and it was
mentioned on the ABC evening news.

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+++ююююю r_941029 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (149)
To: Jim Higgins 26 Oct 94 23:20:00
Subject: 1PARSEC/3.26 LIGHT YEARS

JH> LT> How many weeks are there in a light year?

JH> JH> BD> 52.17857

JH> JH> Wrong! A light year is a measure of distance not a measure
JH> JH> of time.
JH> MG>
JH> MG> How long is a nanosecond?

JH> Heheheh… What’s a henway?

A nanosecond is about as long as your screen is wide.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

— WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (150)
To: John Swanger 27 Oct 94 01:07:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S AR 1/яяяяя

JS> MG> Faith in the stories of ignorant, goat-herding
JS> MG> tribesmen well describes you lying Christians.

JS> Speaking of ignorant, If ignorance is bliss, as
JS> they say, you must be the happiest guy on the
JS> planet.
JS>
JS> Just for your future reference, although you
JS> probably will choose to fail to assimilate the
JS> information, recent evidence suggests that a major
JS> portion of what is now the Turkish – Iraqian basin
JS> or Persia was completely engulfed apprx. 4 to 6000
JS> years hence. This encompassed the then “known”
JS> world.

Which is as usual a crock of shit.

But even if it were true then it makes the Flood a lie six
ways from Sunday.

Do you have anything better than your unsubstantiated word
for this? Perhaps a reputable citation? Of course not. It is
all lies and even in supporting the lies it gives the lie to the
Flood.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (156)
To: Edward Hudock 27 Oct 94 15:23:00
Subject: BIBLE

EH> MG> When there are NO OTHERS mentioned it is difficult to
EH> MG> see why others invent their existence. Perhaps you can
EH> MG> explain why they have to be invented?
EH> MG>
EH> MG> BTW: The priests would have been unclean to handle
EH> MG> blood money, something they would have avoided. Who are you
EH> MG> going to invent now?

EH> Please prove this BTW statement. Thank-you.

Generally it comes from Leviticus 21:11

“Neither shall he do in to any dead body, nor defile himself for
his father or for his mother;” KJV

“he will not go near any corpse or make himself unclean even for
his father or mother” NJB

You will recall the rules written around each direct
“regulation” provided by Yahweh were scrupulous in their
inclusiveness not permitting loopholes but rather extending all
of them to a greater coverage than stated. This “regulation” was
extended to anything directly connected with the dead
specifically clothing.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages. FBI at Waco.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (175)
To: Katherine Fatherley 27 Oct 94 20:39:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERNяяяяяя

KF> KF> It rained here for about 40 days and many people were flooded
KF> KF> out.

KF> CB> How come the whole world didn’t flood?

KF> You are a very curious young man. God said that HE would
KF> never flood the earth like that again. We remember that
KF> promise when we see a rainbow.

You mean light started acting differently after this flood?
Are you really saying the sky was colorless before the flood or
what?

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco. Gestern USA.

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+++ююююю r_941030 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (80)
To: All 24 Oct 94 20:42:10
Subject: Kuwait, 10/24/94

Kuwait, 14 October 1994
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/24>

It was a fun exercise. It lasted barely two weeks. What
was it?
Just what happened? Iraq tested the US and allied response
to a repeat performance of its invasion of Kuwait. He
discovered, 1) he could not maintain troops within ten miles of
the border and 2) he could not maintain troops within one hundred
miles of the border and 3) he could not maintain troops that in
any manner would appear to threaten Kuwait.
This was a probe, a test. Until this test no one knew what
the real response might be to a threat upon Kuwait. The standard
method of testing any military system it to probe it to elicit a
response — to see what it does. He found out.
Really nothing happened. Hussein did nothing more than
conduct a normal military exercise so it cost him effectively
nothing. He conducted it in a location that was of value for
what could be learned from the probe. What was learned?
Primarily the time required for a response to be made. We
have to give credence to US knowledge of the preparations for
this having started two weeks before it was made public. As such
he has discovered there is a three week response time, two of
those weeks political and one of them military. He and we now
know any future attack upon Kuwait, which mean occupying Kuwait
City, has to be accomplished in between two and three weeks, the
closer to two weeks the better.
Additionally we learned that Russia is still acting as an
ally of Iraq in that it pleaded for the sanctions to be lifted in
return for only the recognition of Kuwait’s independence. In
general it was learned the old status quo of the US defending
Kuwait and Russia being a reliable ally still exists in reality
rather than what might only have been public posturing.
The cost to learn this was effectively zero to Iraq in that
it could be considered simply a military exercise. The the US
primarily but to some of the allies there were a few billion
expended and more still being spent. Granted the US did get the
same sort of exercise, a practice deployment, and anything that
went wrong will certainly be corrected for next time.
What now? Unless you can read Hussein’s mind we don’t know.
Whether or not Iraq will now plan for a two week total drive to
Kuwait City is anyone’s guess. I presume the CIA and Mossad will
be tracking whatever Iraq purchases that could support such an
operation.
We still have two nominally friendly and oil rich countries
who know without us Iraq can have them. Iraq is also the bulwark
against the expansion of Moslem fundamentalism in Iran into the
Middle East. Iraq remains an indispensable enemy.
In fact Iraq even serves to protect Kuwait from Iran. And
Iran is the real threat to the region and nearly immune from US
ground attack due to its terrain. The only thing that can be
attacked of Iran is what it might extend into another country to
attack it. It is a rather interesting situation.

* * * * *

*****

The intention of these posts is remain apolitical. My
apologies to the political conferences.

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

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+++ююююю r_941031 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (30)
To: All 27 Oct 94 23:39:00
Subject: HAMMER AND NAIL

Government

When the only tool you have is passing laws, everyone looks
like a criminal.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * “Bill and Al’s Bogus Adventure.” DEMs ’92

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (32)
To: All 28 Oct 94 00:26:00
Subject: ‘THE BELL CURVE’

Lets take this to Politics if it gets off topic.

The Bell Curve may or may not be a valid study. It may or
may not draw legitimate conclusions. The issue is rather that it
is motivated by the politics of the authors (of which one has
died.)

It can be attacked politically in that it appears to foster
the agenda of the author. In so attacking it, the position has
to be that politics is regardless of science, i.e. observable
reality.

On the other hand the last time I heard, for a Gaussian
deviation from the norm to be significant, it had to exceed one
standard deviation. That is 32 points or so not this niggardly
ten to fifteen points the book discusses. Granted tests for
significance can be any damn thing you want to set and all the
rest. But just what it might mean to get a few things wrong on a
timed tests vice never getting them right escapes me.

That point being I have no idea what intelligence as
measured by a printed test means. (I score rather high for what
that is worth.) There are entire classes of problems most people
can not solve without talking them over with someone else. But
once discussed they get the right answer.

Internal visualization of geometric rotations is an acquired
skill but is part of the test. Logic is an acquired skill also
in that it can be taught and, as in politics, is often contrary
to what is really going on.

Having seen the original WW I Army IQ test (and wishing I
still had a copy of it) I assure you no one here could even get a
100 IQ (what do you know about really working horses for a
living? Gee and haw are the least of what you have to know.)

If it is all true, the race differences are “statistically
insignificantly” different in terms of IQ test results. Why all
the crap I have no idea.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * If the gods will not listen, then to hell with them.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (41)
To: Christopher Ince 28 Oct 94 01:24:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S AR 1/яяяяя

CI> AH> In a missive of <Oct 23 00:55> Christopher Ince (1:130/103)
CI> AH> writes to Matt Giwer:

CI> AH> CI> The fact Noah’s Ark and the flood are recorded in other
CI> AH> CI> religions than Judaism and Christianity is evidence that
CI> AH> CI> the flood did take

CI> AH> No, it’s possibly evidence that isolated floods have
CI> AH> occured in different places, and may also be evidence that
CI> AH> Judaism borrowed stories from other, earlier religions.

CI> Your agenda for what you want to believe is clear. I
CI> wonder how often entire regions are flooded?

Never more than last year in the US Midwest.

CI> The flood story being found in other religions does not
CI> make it a fact, but those stories are evidence that the
CI> flood could have taken place.

Sorry, legends are legends and not evidence. Real evidence
consists of something we can still find particularly of something
of this magnitude.

CI> Evidence is evidence. Also, it took around a year I
CI> believe in the story for the waters to subside, that would
CI> take a larger flood than an isolated flood to accumulate
CI> that much water.

There never was any such thing so what is your point? It
happened, according to the Bible, in 2250 BC and we have evidence
of at least a dozen civilizations that were continuous through
that year.

CI> Also the Moslem religion? Which is where the other story
CI> came from, was created hundreds of years after the times of
CI> Christ.

If you never noticed, the Israelites and the Moslems are the
same people. They share a common root language. They just hate
each other for more thousands of years than we should give a damn
about.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Get Janet a fiddle.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (127)
To: Mike Fisher 28 Oct 94 19:24:00
Subject: CA PROP 187

MF> MG> That the federal government won’t do a damn thing about it
MF> MG> and forces California (and every other state to support
MF> MG> them) is ludicrous. And the best opposition to it is to
MF> MG> claim everyone who is against supporting illegals is a
MF> MG> racist.

MF> I am interested in getting the text of the two
MF> propostitions. Can you post them or do you know where I
MF> can access them? Thanks.

I have no idea but you are much closer to California than I
am. There must be some politically oriented board in CA that
carries it.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4. The Feds can get away with it.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (128)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Oct 94 19:28:00
Subject: CA PROP 187

JH> MG> That the federal government won’t do a damn thing about it
JH> MG> and forces California (and every other state to support
JH> MG> them) is ludicrous. And the best opposition to it is to
JH> MG> claim everyone who is against supporting illegals is a
JH> MG> racist.

JH> As of 10/26 it looks like Prop 187 will pass with nearly a
JH> 3:2 (or even better) margin. About the only thing in doubt
JH> is the margin IMO. Then I suspect it will be dragged into
JH> the courts by the Feds. That will be either a defeat for
JH> California which will anger the hell out of most everyone
JH> affected by this problem, or the defeat of the century for
JH> the Feds. We can only hope that if the Feds lose, the
JH> ruling and opinion will cite the 10th Amendment as a major
JH> factor. If the attitude of the courts reflects the ugly
JH> mood in the nation this is one the Feds would want to stay
JH> away from… but we pretty well know it doesn’t. It will
JH> be interesting to say the least.

Funny thing about SC decisions. Unless they feel motivated
they simply respond to the pleading not to the Constitution.
Unless the state brings up the 10th they do not have to consider
the 10th. The CA attorney general, if elected, could sabotage
the entire case by basing the SC case on something absurd and
letting the case go down in flames.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (130)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 28 Oct 94 19:32:00
Subject: IN YOUR CANADA NEXT

BS> MG> AND it is not honest to fail to point out that the
BS> MG> hetero cases are so 95+% women who have had sex with
BS> MG> bi-sexual or IV drug using men. That is a

BS> I’m just relaying the figures as they were presented.

Then the figures were misleading but then what does one
expect from a journalism major.

BS> You get AIDS by doing something with an infected person.
BS> The fact is that heterosex with an infected person is
BS> dangerous.

And it is also correct that it is 14 times more dangerous
for a woman than a man and again, it is a homosexual or bisexual
man.

BS> If you want to look for an origin of the disease, look to
BS> Africa. If you want to look to a group, look to Africans.

And if you are talking about this country or Europe, look to
homosexuals and IV drug users. The demographics of the disease
are quite nation specific.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (132)
To: All 28 Oct 94 19:52:00
Subject: AN HONEST STATEMENT

“This Year Will Go Down In History.
For The First Time, A Civilized Nation Has Full Gun Registration!
Our Streets Will Be Safer, Our Police More Efficient,
And The World Will Follow Our Lead Into The Future!”
Clinton
1993

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * “Dr. Gruber, get a life.” Dr. Herbert West

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (143)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Oct 94 21:28:00
Subject: ARMED MARCH

JH> You aren’t missing anything. No party has cornered the
JH> market on stupid candidate choices, but one would hope the
JH> “new” guy on the block (Libertarians) would be more
JH> careful. I suppose this isn’t possible when any asshole can
JH> run and claim to be of any affiliation he/she chooses no
JH> matter how mortified that party’s central committee (or
JH> whatever it may be called) may be.

I will agree that political parties should be made illegal.
Beyond that I have no interest in one over the other, rather the
candidate they front.

JH> One would think that Stern was coached that he would have
JH> to reveal his personal finances… objection to doing so
JH> being his stated reason for bailing out. And even if not
JH> coached, doesn’t *EVERY* dumbf*ck know about the financial
JH> disclosure rules???!!! Jeez!

I would have thought he had more balls than that. The
Constitution is clearly silent on who can can be elected to
office save citizenship and age. Had there been an intention to
apply any other criteria then it would have been easy to state.

In other words I see no reason for him or anyone to abide by
any such law as it is not a power granted to the government.
Perhaps it is in the NY State constitution but I doubt it.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (144)
To: Willie Martin 28 Oct 94 21:41:00
Subject: ASSAULT ON CHRISTIANITY

WM> The booklet is concerned with the heavy attacks being
WM> made upon religion in America, especially Christianity, and
WM> documents some of the court cases. As most Christians know,
WM> or should know, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
WM> and People for the American Way are heavily involved in
WM> Christian bashing.
WM>
WM> For example, the ACLU claims that the religious right is
WM> working to destroy our civil liberties (page 10). Nothing
WM> could be further from the truth. And People for the
WM> American Way (a euphemism designed to fool the public)
WM> Action Fund advertises itself as “Your Voice Against
WM> Intolerance.” (Page 10). Often, these leftist organizations
WM> accuse their opposition of that which they are guilty. They
WM> seem conscienceless and too frequently distort the truth
WM> mercilessly.

You could make a better case on the Hassidic claim they will
have to “smell” cheeseburgers being prepared while Fundies must
actually look at abortion clinics. The press coverage difference
is endless.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * FOIA? We don’t need no stinking FOIA!

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (145)
To: All 28 Oct 94 22:58:00
Subject: FUNDAMENTALIST WHAT? 01

Christian Bashing?
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/29>

Christians, particularly the fundamentalist types, are
constantly claiming they are under attack. There are two
questions involved, are they really under attack? and do they
deserve to be under attack?
To the first we have to determine what is meant by attack.
Certainly we can hold the present administration is on the
offensive against them when one of the highest appointed
officials “preaches” it is time for them to give up a central
tenet of their faith which Dr. Elders characterizes as a “love
affair with the fetus.” That is no different than referencing
Dr. Elders’ love affair with murdering the innocent.
Inflammatory words are not needed.
It is not only the administration. The Keyries Joel
community lost it special school district and the reaction of the
media was quite against the finding. When there is a protest
against the opening of a MacDonald’s in a Hassidic neighborhood
because of some primitive superstition about milk and meat in the
same dish the media gives it sympathetic coverage, they can smell
cheeseburgers a mile away. Of course no one questions that it is
not in their religion.
The media and the administration feel quite free to judge
Christian religions. More generally they feel free to judge any
religion they judge to be fundamentalist. This includes
fundamentalist Moslems.
Strangely this never includes the most primitive and
fundamentalist religion of them all, Judaism. Be that as it may
it is clear there is a public willingness to condemn forms of
public expression of religion and not others.
The next question is, do they deserve it? On one hand one
can say, yes, but in so doing one has granted some person, group
or agency the power to judge what a group deserves. But if one
says no then there is a question of letting any religious belief
transformed into action pass as acceptable.
And there is the point, it is not the belief but the action
arising from the belief. Believe what you want but do not put
the belief into action. But as all religious thinkers have held
in one form or another, belief without action is meaningless.
And thus religion confronts today’s world. The objections
to fundamentalists are not in their beliefs but in their actions.
They oppose abortion and perhaps even gambling, sex and dancing
for all we know. That they would “dare” to take political
actions based upon those beliefs is what singles them out for
attack.
Yet we do not see this on the other side. Like it or not
the American Civil Liberties Union was effectively founded by
Jews with the purpose of removing the Christian heritage from the
US. That may or may not be a good cause and is certainly in
consonance with the thinking of Thomas Jefferson. But it was in
fact an overt action taken upon the basis of religion.
So if one religious viewpoint “deserves” it do not they all?
And if not, why not? Is there some place in the nation an
ultimate arbiter of acceptable actions for a religion?
In the public mind it has been adjudged that Jerry Falwell
and Pat Robertson may not become rich but Billy Graham can live
like a king. The only apparent difference is Dr. Graham does not
promote actions based upon belief. And therefore he is not in
conflict with anyone’s political agenda.
Faith with and without actions is an interesting question to
fundamentalists in that they hold being born again merits
salvation as an act of faith but then do go on to promote actions
as a demonstration of that faith.
This perceived duality of between belief and actions springs
from the solipsistic view. Clearly I know I can believe
something and not act upon it but how do I know you can? Or
rather if you do not act upon it how do I or does anyone know you
really believe what you say?
As we can not get into each other’s heads do we take each
other on faith or actions? That is not a question I intend to
answer here. Suffice to say we can believe Billy Graham because
he is harmless and distrust the fundamentalists because they
prove they act as they believe.
There is and continues to be a different standard and the
term fundamentalists has become no better than a perjorative.
Consider “moslem fundamentalists” when referring to the Middle
East when the most enlightened of Middle Eastern Muslims makes an
Orthodox Jew look positively radical.
It is time to talk of fundamentalist liberals in order to
put the perjorative back where it belongs. These are liberals
who hold with the core beliefs without regard to any fact or
sense of reality that may inflict itself upon their benighted
.
Continued in the next message…

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (146)
To: Paul West 28 Oct 94 23:05:00
Subject: CAPITOL 800 NUMBER

PW> You are absolutely correct Roland and I hope people will
PW> continue to use these methods of telling our Congressmen
PW> how we feel. I also feel the phone companies should
PW> provide toll free phone service to Washington D.C as a
PW> public service.

That might make nice public relations but they nearly do.
Get some FAX software and compose a one page letter and send it
after midnight or on weekends. It should be under 15 cents from
any place in the continental US. Certainly cheaper than a post
card. That way you do not get to be filter through the call
taker and you get what they say they want, simple and to the
point.

That some have not discovered 1 gig HDs on the receiving
side and insist upon hard copy is their problem.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco! Never again! Vote Libertarian!

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (147)
To: Lee Grimsley 28 Oct 94 23:10:00
Subject: CAPITOL 800 NUMBERяяяяяяя

LG> I just called and got the answering machine
LG> (Saturday morning)
LG>
LG> and Ihave to agree…this is spooky….
LG>
LG> I was urged to call the FBI if I had something
LG> that needed immediate attention.
LG>
LG> Wonder what Reno is “cooking” up now?????????

I wouldn’t get too excited about this. It has been in place
for years. I had a real “spy” case some ten years ago and knew
who to call, the Cuban desk at State in this case. They were
able to get onto it much more quickly than the FBI every would
have. They knew him by alias and chuckled about “him again.” I
would presume clumsy but I was told nothing.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (148)
To: Ken Pangborn 28 Oct 94 23:14:00
Subject: CATHOLIC “ARMY”

KP> -> This is the “intelligence” service you are talking about
KP> -> here It is supposed to be equal or better than the KGB was
KP> -> and the CIA is.

KP> How many attempts have there been in recent decades
KP> on the lives of the Pope and Cardinals? ….. THAT is
KP> reason enough!

Why would Mussolini have tried it? Pius XII armed the Swiss
Guard with submachineguns for the duration.

KP> -> I understand there is also uniformed troops that are armed
KP> -> with the most modern weapons. They are there but not
KP> -> seen.

KP> The Swiss Guard? They are the equivalent of the
KP> U.S. “Secret Service.” Their job is to be body guards to
KP> the Pope, Cardinals, and other church officials and
KP> buildings. Uniforms are ceremonial.

The weapons are available and as with all Swiss they are
trained in their use. There is simply no need to display them
without provocation.

KP> -> My original point is why does a church need an army?
KP> -> I mean, it is not like the SALVATION ARMY..:)

KP> For the same reasons the U.S. needs an Army. But in
KP> this case the “Army” is a body guard service. You
KP> completely misrepresent it.

However, it does present a first line of defense on the
outside if needed. It does not function exactly like the Secret
Service.x

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages. FBI at Waco.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (149)
To: Kenneth Weiss 28 Oct 94 23:20:00
Subject: CATHOLIC “ARMY”

KW> … Would Jesus wear a Rolex?

Only a cheap imitation like the majority wear.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Children of Waco, I feel your pain. Bill Clinton

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (150)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 28 Oct 94 23:23:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S AR 1/яяяяя

BS> The Babylonian story also says that a gloomy future awaits
BS> the dead.

The gloomy future simply justifies the survival instinct.
What the survival instinct justifies I have no idea.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Welcome to Masada, Texas. Never again!

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (151)
To: Ken Pangborn 28 Oct 94 23:35:00
Subject: JAPAN NUKED

KP> You are being too kind Linda. We had just fought
KP> battles at Saipan, Leyte, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa with
KP> HORRENDOUS loss of life. More than double that of Hiroshima
KP> and Nagasaki! DOUBLE! And the point is that almost a week
KP> passed between the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There
KP> were ABSOLUTELY NO offers to surrender. And the Japanese
KP> surrender did NOT come till almost a WEEK after Nagasaki,
KP> and not until AFTER U.S. bombers dropped the SAME warning
KP> leaflets on Tokyo around the EMporer’s palace that they had
KP> in Hiroshima and Nagasaki did Japan FINALLY offer to
KP> surrender! And they were told that if they did not
KP> surrender that the Japanese race ould be EXTERMINATED!
KP> FINALLY Japan surrendered…. Under TRUMAN……….. Not
KP> Roosevelt who was LONG dead by the ear’s end! Of course our
KP> revisionist thinks FDR was still around!Shows what accuract
KP> level he works on!

As “Bull” Halsey said upon returning to Pearl Harbor after
the attack, “When this is over the Japanese language will only be
spoken in hell.” It was a common sentiment. My father was in
Hawaii after having taken Guadalcanal (the FIRST US offensive in
WW II) and getting ready to invade Japan. I had been conceived
before then. It matters to me.

Even though FDR did start the war in my mind, war is a
matter of the gut and not of reason. Japan could have checked
FDR’s move with an attack upon and occupation of Saipan or Guam
rather than Pearl Harbor and not invited the third cut.

On the other hand, if they had caught the carriers dockside
they would have won.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. — Reno

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (152)
To: Ben Robeck 28 Oct 94 23:51:00
Subject: JAPAN NUKED

BR> If all you are refering to is their treatment of prisoners
BR> of war, then maybe…

That treatment was according to the code of those who
surrender rather than be taken alive. Next question.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 1. Kill them before they burn you alive.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (166)
To: All 29 Oct 94 16:57:00
Subject: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISS 01

Washington Times

19 October 1994

Trooper recalls Clinton seeking loan ‘help’

An Arkansas state trooper has told Whitewater investigators
that during a chance 1986 meeting at the state Capitol he
overheard Gov. Bill Clinton ask for “help” in arranging a
questionable $300,000 Small Business Administration loan, federal
law enforcement sources said.

Although President Clinton has denied any knowledge of the
April 1986 loan, Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14-year veteran who worked
on the governor’s security detail in the mid-1980s, told
investigators Mr. Clinton questioned David L. Hale about the
possibility of the loan during the impromptu meeting, the sources
said.

===

Rabbis for young couples to go on overseas junket to get
married

…

In Israel, where civil marriage does not exist, the right to
marry Jews remains an official monopoly of Orthodox rabbinical
courts.

…

Most of these [500,000] new Israeli citizens are secular.
And estimated 150,000 aren’t even considered Jewish by the Halaka
and cannot be married by rabbinical courts. It’s for these
people the Er Lan, and dozens of other similar companies
scattered around Israel have devised two solutions.

“The most popular is the “Cyprus marriage.” For $1200 —
accommodations and air fair included — the betrothed are sent to
nearby Cyprus, where they are married within five days by a local
judge.

…

For those who can not easily leave the country, such as
active duty soldiers or immigrants who owe money to the
government [!], Er Lan’s lawyers arrange a fully legal marriage
license issued by the government of Paraguay.

===

20 October 1994

Clinton implores Wilder to help Robb, may offer him Africa
post

In a White House meeting Tuesday, President Clinton urged
former Virginia Gov. L. Douglas Wilder to help his arch-rival win
that state’s tight Senate race and discussed the prospect of Mr.
Wilder accepting a “roving ambassadorship” in Africa, Democratic
sources told the Washington Times.

…

Sources at the White House and in Virginia said the
Clinton-Wilder meeting was held at Mr. Wilder’s request. The
20-minute session centered on his pending endorsement of Rm. Robb
and his desire to be a roving ambassador in Africa, the sources
said.

“Doug would be receptive to that offer,” said a high-ranking
Virginia democrat who asked not to be named. “That’s what’s on
the table.”

21 October 1994

White House denies effort to silence trooper

The White House yesterday denied it sought to influence the
testimony of an Arkansas state trooper who says he heard Gov.
Bill Clinton pressure the owner of a Little Rock lending agency
for an improper federal loan.

.
Continued in the next message…

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (184)
To: Kim Rozell 29 Oct 94 18:08:00
Subject: CIVILIANS AND ASSAULяя

KR> JJ>MG> JJ> Bert , I USE a .22 LR. Thanks for posting this article
KR> JJ>MG> JJ> that makes my point. Of course mine isn’t a Saturday night
KR> JJ>MG> JJ> Special.

KR> JJ>MG> Why don’t you two stop up and assault me some time.

KR> JJ>Matt now YOU are starting to sound like Bobby Butt…:)

KR> Matt: I like the .22LR myself. Some people laugh when I
KR> pull out the old .177 air gun I have until they see what it
KR> can do. It was made in Germany and can put a pelet through
KR> both sides of a steel garbage can at 15 paces, or one side
KR> and make a dent in the other at 50 paces. It is one of the
KR> Compeition Air Guns that will push a pelet 1,100 feet per
KR> second. It is big as a .30/06 and weights like one too.
KR> It uses the counter opposing pistons with a single pump of
KR> the arm lever.

I have two of them, one that passed of Olympic grade 30
years ago.

KR> Most of your .22 Longs will travel at 1050 fps, while the
KR> LR will go 1,350 fps, so my .177 is close in power. The
KR> .22 is a 5.5 mm while the .177 is 4.5 mm. You still have
KR> the advantage of a larger grain projectile than I do as I
KR> use 7.7 grain and most .22s use at least 10 grain or
KR> better.

However, my .45 auto handgun with +P loads does the same
velocity with a 185gr JHP. That is not even talking about what a
rifle can do.

KR> I wonder if the new crime bill will denote more than 1,000
KR> air gun pelets as an arsenal? Would Two boxes of pelets
KR> make you a criminal? I read the “Anti Handgun Inc.’s”
KR> literature on how we should rid the world of all guns
KR> execpt for Swat police teams and military. They even want
KR> to disarm the common police officer! I guess that makes me
KR> an evil person for having a pelet gun and a BB pistol (Both
KR> are single shot).

There has been only one exhaustive study of the killing
power of handgun cartridges. That was done by the US Army in
deciding upon the .45 auto. The findings were rather simple, the
larger the caliber the better comes first and after that comes
velocity. These are true unless one hits bone and then all bets
are off. However, the larger caliber the more likely to hit
bone so it even helps there.

Beyond that there are records kept of one street shoots by
the police. You get the highest probability of a one shot
incapacitation by following the caliber first and then velocity
rule. These are hardly scientific and there are plenty of
exceptions for special rounds and not all that much evidence for
most of them.

Nothing I have written should be taken as definitive, only
as the place to start.

KR> Pling! What was that?…. Pling!… George, did you feel
KR> something sting you? 🙂

Try for Janet Reno in the ass. It is almost as big a target
as Hitlary’s.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 1. Kill them before they burn you alive.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (188)
To: All 29 Oct 94 20:03:00
Subject: SUPREME INDECISION

Supreme Indecision
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/29>

Early in its history the Supreme Court of the United States
found it had a the power to declare laws null and void because
they were contrary to the Constitution. This has come to be
accepted as a legitimate power. However, that power is based
solely upon the comparison of a law (or other matter) against the
Constitution.
The on-going debate has been between the strict and loose
construction. The former holds the Constitution should be read
in light of what was meant at the time. The latter holds it can
be interpreted in sort of a “what they would have said if they
lived today” mode.
However there has become a common sense perception,
regardless of how widely disavowed, that the Supreme Court has
become political in nature. That it has added a new criteria,
that of current public opinion as a criteria. It is excused as
saying the Court watches the election returns.
There is a minor problem with this. If the court has any
criteria other than the Constitution, strict or loose, it has no
right to the power to declare laws unconstitutional. Laws are
only internal to the Constitution and the powers the people have
delegated to the government and nothing more.
People remain the supreme authority not only over all of
government but specifically of the Supreme Court. The Supreme
Court is not a pantheon established on earth to be the ultimate
arbiter of the country. It is rather a tool the people have
established within the government as one of three branches of
government to keep that government under control.
That the Supreme Court may be political is a direct
violation of its intended function. That function was not and is
not to determine the validity of laws based upon their party
affiliation but upon the Constitution as written not as
politically interpretated.
When any group is set inviolate above the people the people
have the duty to overthrow it. It is incumbent upon the people
to exercise their supreme authority over the government and
reject its findings. There exists a constitutional mechanism for
such rejection. Should that mechanism be found unusable because
the ballot box does not work then the people are still faced with
their duty.
“The Supreme Court says” is a woeful tiger to be riding. It
has no power other than what the people have given it. That
power was to aid in restraining the other two branches as with
the Triumverate in ancient Rome. But when two or more branches
conspire by means of party loyalty to determine the course of the
government then the people are required to perform their duty.
We have had this kind of Supreme Court in this country since
it determined the interstate commerce clause meant a diner in the
middle of a state. In so doing it declared the rest of the
Constitution superfluous. By such construction everything can in
some way affect interstate commerce and is thus open to the
control of government whether or not it was ever delegated to the
government.
It is difficult to argue the Supreme Court is impartial when
it finds for abortion as a right of privacy between doctor and
patient and can not find financial records as a matter of
personal papers as specifically stated in the 4th amendment to be
safe from the Internal Revenue Service. This is not to pick nits
here, I am quite in favor of privacy in all matters including
abortion. I use it to point out how the same issue can divide
us, the people.
Put politics aside. Will you accept the termination of the
IRS in exchange for abortion on demand? Will you put aside your
political differences in order to get the government out of our
lives? Completely, forever!
That is what I am asking. If we do not have a united front,
if we let partisan politics divide us to the benefit of the
politicians, we are lost. It will be us against them until the
end of time or of this country which ever comes first.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

[note new address and phone]

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * My incoming messages have the right of way.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (190)
To: All 29 Oct 94 20:51:00
Subject: ‘THE BELL CURVE’

RF> MG>RF> According to the TV reports, this is one book that
RF> >RF> can’t be ignored, and won’t go away.

RF> MG> So the book will be ignored and the authors attacked as
RF> >bigots.

RF> I figure controversy at least means people will be
RF> forced to think more about the issue. I bet plenty of
RF> people will now come out of the woodwork and write books
RF> on race and intelligence. Even though they know the
RF> unwashed masses will riot over them. 😉

RF> It’s only necessary to be approved by some people one respects.

I have no problem with the results but looking at the real
bell curve I am not impressed with the difference.

Consider a person will “brag” about 110 but a person with 90
will be considered inferior. That is absolute garbage to any
statistics I am aware of. Take two different tests and try to
score the same very small difference equivalent no matter where
you are on the curve.

Granted it is 20 points around the norm but it might be five
points around the 2nd Standard Deviation and 2 points around the
3rd IF AND ONLY IF such accuracy were possible.

And let me get down and dirty here and talk about the people
who might not be on this conference. They have a solid 100 IQ
+/- one standard deviation. They are the “majority.” Do you
really think they are bright enough to discern a few trivial
points among those they deal with?

Getting real is hardly the question here.

We have this image of IQ that holds “all of our children are
above average.” 101 is great 99 is to be avoided.

What is clearly missing is the idea of mental maturity.
Unless memory is attached to IQ (I see a way it can be but I know
of no studies) experience can replace reasoning any day. But
with adults it is fixed? That is certainly not an established
point, witness (literally) Colonel Sander of KFC fame.

Then comes the question of populations vice individuals.
That is not an easy one to address but as “success” is one of the
point of this book then we need to discuss just what success
means. I have known several successful cab drivers I would
consider dumber than shit. I also knew a cab driver who was a
Colonel (OK, he exaggerated but …) in the Iranian Army and a
helo driver. Who is successful?

Frankly I do not know. Which brings it back to the
political. Success or failure appears to be defined by who is on
the welfare dole. It could just as easily and in the same
political context be viewed as who is smart enough to exploit the
welfare system. So what is intelligence?

It is not a clear issue no matter how it is presented. I
just may have to read the book if it continues to be of such
interest.

I do have to agree with one response of the remaining living
author, to paraphrase,

‘if I came back a hundred years from now would I find
inheritance a factor? Yes. A significant factor? Probably
not.’

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Visit the Hannibal Lechter Dinner Theater.

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