Documents

Giwer, controv 8-1994

Welfare and the End of the Cold War
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

We are presented with an opportunity here. All over the
country the military is shutting down bases. And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
This is a simple solution. Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases. If they do not
then they get no support. The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
Barracks living is not all that bad. The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such. There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities. As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
What are the objections? Only that they would be moved out
of the city. They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money. The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone. It would be a
safe environment. Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base. As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
Everyone wins all around.
Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support. Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base. There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
So there would be a safe and drug free environment. There
are plenty of recreation facilities. Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
If this were done qualifications could be relaxed. People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work. If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
They can be trained for work on the base. It could be part
of the discipline requirements. And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other’s children.
I see it as a win win situation. A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

®®юю R_9409 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940904 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War
—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю RoboMail — The next generation QWK compatible reader!
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (200)
To: All 30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail

Another Nail
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban. Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment. Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment. And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way. In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
Let us review the Constitution. Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government. The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government’s powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects. It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months. There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue. This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights. It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan. I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law. It is not a question of what they can do
within the system. It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend. That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield. They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity. It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America. There
was no time limit on that oath. Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
Remember there were also words in that oath “against all
enemies foreign and domestic.” A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution. By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
We are in need of a word for this. Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
There risks involved will be great. The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it. Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies. The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
I have been accused of fomenting. In fact I am only
recounting what will happen. The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution. The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed. Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994. I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts. I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article. This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming. I am certain what does come will be much worse. Pick an
amendment. Expect none to be safe. Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (231)
To: All 1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning

Prohibition vice Regulation
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

The government claims there is a legal distinction between
prohibition and regulation. Strangely we can find not practical
difference between the two.
Prohibition, as in alcoholic beverages, required a
constitutional amendment to delegate a new power to the federal
government. Regulation, what that is much different, it is under
the interstate commerce clause and the tariff clause and has
always been there. Without nothing it was rather strange our
grandparents did not notice they did not need an amendment to ban
alcoholic beverages, it is certainly interesting to note an even
greater prohibition can be accomplished by calling it regulation
rather than prohibition.
Consider the government does not ban drugs, it regulates
them. While drugs containing alcohol, elixers, were never
prohibited the chances of a doctor prescribing marijuana to keep
a glaucoma patient from going blind or to control nausea under
chemotherapy are slim and none.
The government is not banning guns, it is regulating some
guns. The government does not ban discrimination, it regulates
discrimination. The government regulates all drugs even those
determined not to be drugs.
Where did the government or anyone get the idea the federal
government we delegated this power to the government? It is
certainly not in the US Constitution and if not there it was not
delegated. If it was not delegated the federal government has no
such power, period, the weaseling of the interstate commerce
clause not withstanding. That is the argument that if 1/100 of
1% of an activity goes across state lines then 100% of it can be
regulated.
But then, that is the reason discrimination is regulated.
The government has determined the legal minorities in this
country. If you have ever filled out a form that asks you to
“check your racial status” the choices you have are the only
legal choices. Thus you can be either an Indian living in the
United States or you can be an Hispanic. You can not be an
Indian living in Mexico.
In fact it is illegal for the government to give a medical
research grant to study indians with Hispanic surnames and that
would be creating an unregulated class of minority. When the
government regulates something it regulates reality at the same
time.
Consider drugs that regulators determine have no medical use
when drugs are by definition those substances which have medical
use. I am not attempting to argue the definition of the word
drug. I am pointing out the Food and Drug Administration was
established to regulate the purity and claims of drugs for use in
medicine.
If a substance has no medical utility then it is not a drug
within the meaning of the charter of the FDA. Yet the FDA
regulates substances which are not within the definition by its
own charter. Of course this begs the entire question of the
power of the government to regulate food and drugs in any manner
whatsoever. It is not a delegated power in the Constitution.
Now it may be a good idea for the federal government to do
such regulation and that is what the amendment process of the
constitution was designed to do, add additional delegations to
the federal government.
Here is another one for those of us who started driving
pre-Nixon. Whence came the power to regulate highway speed?
Whence came the power to determine the daylight saving time zone
of the states? Cincinnati used to keep Central Daylight Time
until the law required states to be uniform. Now Greater
Cincinnati Airport in Kentucky keeps Ohio time rather than
Kentucky time.
Trivial? Of course. Annoying? Most definitely. A
usurpation of undelegated power? Unquestionably.
Regulating the type of guns? “We are not taking your guns
away. We are just making it harder to get decent defense
weapons. Consider the ban on Saturday Night Specials in 1968
that banned cheap guns so the poor victims lost the means of
defense. After all Congressmen with their armed bodyguards can
not find the slightest reason for people to defend themselves.
If they are in danger they can always hire bodyguards.
But do not forget, they are not banning the means of self
defense, they are only regulating it. They are only requiring
that the victim have less effective weapons than attackers,
plural. It is only regulation. Self defense is not being banned
yet.
Were this to be a larger article I could provide dozens more
examples of regulation vice banning where there is no apparent
difference save in the legal wording. We are back to walks,
talks, and waddles like a duck it is still a ban and in no way a
“regulation” loophole.
When we face regulation that is the same as a ban it is
unconstitutional as there is no difference. And as such it is a
usurpation of a power not delegated. Those who enforce it have
no right to do so and are violating their oath of office.
Resistance to such usurped authority is in consonance with
an oath of office. Submitting to it is not.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940904 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War

Welfare and the End of the Cold War
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю RoboMail — The next generation QWK compatible reader!
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (200)
To: All 30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail

Another Nail
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (231)
To: All 1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning

Prohibition vice Regulation
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940904 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War

Welfare and the End of the Cold War
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (200)
To: All 30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail

Another Nail
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (231)
To: All 1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning

Prohibition vice Regulation
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940905 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (2)
To: Scott Summers 2 Sep 94 00:31:10
Subject: breaks of the game

SS> IL> MG> The gun ban is dead as of 8/11.

SS> IL> WooHoo! Long live GUNS!

SS> MG> Another ignorant Canadian speaks up.

SS> Ayup. And your powers of prognostication need work as well.
SS> The gun ban is alive and well. On the bright side….. my
SS> net worth just went up dramatically. 🙂

Yours too? I am ready to advertise my Norinco AKS-47 with
75 round drum, 30 and two 5 round clips, strap, accessories,
threaded barrel even. I only paid $400 for all of it. The drum
alone was $129 before the Feinstein amendment. I can even add
300 rounds of ammunition for the paltry sum of …

“The most dangerous weapon in the world.” Janet Reno

I would say at least $2000 in this market, probably much
more. A bidding war is not to be rejected. On the other hand
keeping it is such a good idea.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Cheating is in the eye of the loser.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (3)
To: Jim Higgins 2 Sep 94 00:41:10
Subject: Hate

JH> MG> It is called polemic and a legitimate rhetoric form. Read
JH> MG> Thomas Paine.

JH> JH> I read her regularly and recall nothing on this topic. 😉

JH> MG> That was Thomasina Paine and was only in one movie. It was
JH> MG> a good fill for a non-Kung Fu epic.

JH> But of course. Still one must view these works of art from
JH> within the milieu created and nurtured by the genre if one
JH> is to experience the full range and subtlety of expression
JH> contained within them.

And I am working to be in my time. The worst that can
happen is that I am laughed at. My detractors attempt to elevate
that to a fine art. It is nothing new.

I am attempting to give voice to emotions that are otherwise
only felt. That as I read it is the basis of polemic. We know
things are happening and they are only disjointed feelings. I
could take the other side and imagine greater protections but I
just can not see that from where I am coming from.

This is what the majority of my correspondents appear to
appreciate.

But then hardly a 1/4 of it is polemic so I have no serious
problem with what I post nor with those who respond.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю 333 a beast, 333 a beast, 333 a beast onward, in the valley
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (4)
To: Ian Lin 2 Sep 94 00:55:10
Subject: The 1st takes a walk

IL> MG> We expect little from Canadians this side of the border.
IL> MG> They are so docile.

IL> Well…yes. But so is our government. Our government isn’t
IL> very hostile against us and isn’t trying to burn us as
IL> badly as yours seems to. We really have little to
IL> justifiably complain about, in my honest opinion.

You government plays mercenary to the UN and doesn’t appear
to mind losing people in the process. That in itself is worthy
of revolution.

First they came for our soldiers and I did not speak because
I was not a soldier …

You know the rest.

Why should you care they send your children to the
slaughter?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Even Eternal Truth doesn’t last forever.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (5)
To: Scott Summers 2 Sep 94 00:58:10
Subject: Waco Travesty

SS> MG> One of those is clearly from inside. The other is of
SS> MG> interest although there has been no inventory of BATF guns
SS> MG> I have seen no weapon that could fire a .223 in the tapes.
SS> MG> The other two will never be known.

SS> Wait a minute! Nothing on the tapes? Matt, there are not
SS> one but *several* M16-type rifles viewable on the tape in
SS> the hands of the ATF….. and they *all* fire .223 ammo.
SS> Military designation is 5.56, but it’s the same round.

I will review the tapes but I saw no M-16s as best I
remember. Which tape, where?

Since the single bullet JFK theory has been enshrined as
gospel we can debate entrance and exit wound forever. Which tape
and roughly when? I am interested.

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (6)
To: George Rudzinski 2 Sep 94 05:21:10
Subject: The citadel

GR> -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Charles Hill <=-

GR> CH> Matt Giwer read this off a milk carton, or something:
GR> MG>
GR> MG> I do read milk cartons. I keep hoping to see Clinton’s
GR> MG> picture on it.

GR> Matt,

GR> Have a problem with democracy? Or just like to whine when
GR> your candidate loses?

I had no expectations of winning. I voted Libertarian.

GR> CH> It’s not exactly private – the small print in the school’s
GR> CH> name, “The Military College of South Carolina”, might give
GR> CH> you the idea that it’s administered by the S.C. state
GR> CH> government, and you’d be right – but it’s definitely not
GR> CH> one of the official service academies….cgh

GR> MG> Where does this information come from? Chartered by the
GR> MG> state as the Military College is something different. What
GR> MG> I have been reading is funding is from every place but the
GR> MG> state.

GR> So you believe in private descrimination?

Certainly. If you do not then the next social event you
give you just post it on a dozen telephone polls and let anyone
in. Are you trying to look stupid?

—
ю RM 1.3 01261 ю I, Matthias Gloriosus, I, messager to 1000s, I am my ideal.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940908 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (38)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 5 Sep 94 01:01:10
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S ARK

BS> Actually, what AC> states is a “lie”. The fact is that
BS> “Evolutionists” mostly ignore creationts. The only time
BS> they give them much attention is when the creationists
BS> attack and seem to be getting to where they might be
BS> successful in getting their propaganda into schools and
BS> other places.

Of course. They are not worth the time in the least until they get a
foothold in spreading what is not true.

BS> About the only reason creationists get any support is that
BS> they relentlessly repeat “the big lie” and nobody bothers
BS> to speak against it.

They repeal ALL the lies after they admit they are lies.
Follow them around Fido and you will find them solidly trounced
on one conference for lack of evidence and failure to support,
often even admitting they were wrong. When they disappear they
start over from the being on another conference.

Tracking them down and confronting them with their own
admissions is fun. In that case we have them as admitted liars.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even I am impressed.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (39)
To: Frank Hay 5 Sep 94 01:02:10
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S ARK

FH> Ha> right, then I feel sorry for you. That’s all. And should
FH> Ha> you be right, then you can feel sorry for me. We’ll find
FH> Ha> out one day. The catch is: If I’m right, we’ll all know,
FH> Ha> but if you’re right, we’ll never know, because we’ll be
FH> Ha> dead and unknowing.

FH> Why do you not consider other possiblities? You could both
FH> be wrong, for one.

FH> Satanism could be the “true” religion.

Man is the only animal with the true religion, several of
them. — MT

Sorry, the likelihood of god, satan or any spirits is
exactly the same, zero.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I never apologize.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (40)
To: Ken Pangborn 5 Sep 94 02:10:10
Subject: The citadel

P> George Orwell had it all wrong. He was 10 years off and got
the gender wrong.

IT’S 1994……….. LONG LIVE BIG SISTER!!!!!

And her name is Janet “the dyke” Reno.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I didn’t make this world. I only brought it to its knee
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (41)
To: Charles Hill 5 Sep 94 02:20:10
Subject: The Citadel

CH> Anyway, things can be fluid in the Palmetto State – in
CH> 1968, the College of Charleston was a struggling private
CH> school with 400 students, and today it’s a state school
CH> with ten thousand. I’ve not heard that the Citadel has
CH> actually changed its name, but I don’t think that name
CH> necessarily means that Columbia pays all the bills….cgh

I have no brochures much less a financial statement. I can
only comment upon what I have read. That being the financing
comes from tuitions, alumni contributions and endowments.

Certainly there may be some state contributions, there
always are but I get no impression they are of the type or
magnitude that should ever invoke EEOC or whatever laws.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (42)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 5 Sep 94 03:09:10
Subject: COMING TO TEXAS

BS> This Chapel Hill-Carborro 40 page plan will teach
BS> staff, students, and faculty that every individual and
BS> family (even gay families) should be respected and
BS> accepted. It not only affirms the dignity of lesbian and
BS> gay persons, but calls for support staff for lesbian/gay
BS> students and families to be included in every school in the
BS> district. Such welcome efforts are essential in the
BS> continuing struggle to combat the virulent homophobia in
BS> text books, which reach a truly captive audience and rank
BS> among the most widely-read mass media in the country.

Let me explain this to you once.

Every currently popular cause to create work for
teachers running short of teachers is jumped on. There is
nothing more to it than a union protecting its own and in fact
seeking to expand.

This and similar are all self serving efforts and if in
your cause, fine with me, but these are truly fair weather
friends.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (43)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 5 Sep 94 03:29:10
Subject: EARLY XIAN MARRIAGES 1/2

BS> Boswell tackles head-on the question that most readers will
BS> probably be asking themselves: “Was the ceremony ‘homosexual’ in
BS> an erotic sense? ” Boswell’s answer is once again cautious:

In all the conferences where this has come up the only cop
out I have found is the claim his references are all “Eastern
Rite.” I have seen no evidence in support of this position but
it is the best I have read. After all, you know those greeks …

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro: Hope over experience.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (44)
To: William Meriwether 5 Sep 94 03:42:10
Subject: Giwer’s Lies

-=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Scott Summers <=-
WM>
SS> This isn’t William’s first visit to CONTROV. He comes in,
SS> he turns over all the furniture, he declares victory and
SS> leaves.

MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where he
MG> lighted.

WM> I have NEVER EVER been banned from ANY echo. So I must ask you…

WM> Why does this guy lie?

I am only recounting David Bloomberg. Is he lying?

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: “Torah! Torah! Torah!” A battle cry to frighten Arabs.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (45)
To: Charles Hill 5 Sep 94 04:02:10
Subject: Length, etc.

CH> Michael Shirley seems to get his stuff munged by WildMail
CH> from time to time; it’s supposed to cut a message down to
CH> size and send up both parts, but often only Part I ever
CH> makes it to the conference. I’m not quite familiar enough
CH> with Wildcat stuff to make a general recommendation
CH> (although I expect someone will soon chime in with “Get
CH> some *real* software!”), so we’ll just wait and see for
CH> now….cgh

It sucks worse than that. I have been having that same
problem. In testing what it is I have posted messages that
should be cut up and in fact are and then tested the receipt in a
25 cent toll call away. They ALWAYS arrive in both parts. That
means the local boards are eating the multi-part messages with no
problem as it works between 3306 and 377 and within each of them.

BUT when getting out of these cheap exchange areas all parts
after the first vanish.

This is not theory, this is fact I have observed. If anyone
is interested in this I will document it.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (104)
To: Ian Lin 6 Sep 94 13:46:10
Subject: BIG BANG

MS> I thought the Big Bang theory assumed nothing existed until
MS> the bang. If so, where are the star, particles, and
MS> explosive compounds coming from?

MG> Of course it does. This person has no idea what he is
MG> talking about.

IL> I didn’t know the big bang theory assumed nothing existed
IL> before.

You do now.

IL> I wouldn’t assume that!

You have spent how many years applying your formal education
in physics to understanding the matter?

We’ve never been able to
IL> make something out of nothing so it seems a little awkward
IL> to believe it could happen on its own!

The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum
fluctuation in the energy level of nothing. It is that simple
but the math takes a little longer.

Something from
IL> NOTHING? I just can’t believe that.

What does belief have to do with anything?

I guess I’m not a full
IL> believer in the big bang theory, right? So what? I never
IL> claimed to be. I just put forth what my guess was. I didn’t
IL> say it WAS the big bang theory, though it’s similar. I
IL> don’t claim to be a scientist either. But the way I look at
IL> it, it seems most likely that all the matter was there in
IL> the first place and was always there and just did it’s
IL> thing, controlled by gravity and explosions.

Not only are you not a scientist you are not a rational
thinker. Please explain the source of the “explosions”? What
exploded?

I’m not saying
IL> this is the big bang theory–clearly it seems not to be,
IL> accordiing to pupular science and opinion.

According to real science it is not.

It just makes no
IL> sense for something to come from nothing, especially such a
IL> mass as to be the entire universe’s.

As I said. You do not know what you are talking about. You
did not need to demonstrate it.

MG> That is because you are not looking for it. It is all over
MG> the literature.

IL> Other than this “nothing existed before” idea, I don’t have
IL> a problem with it.

This sounds like “Whose on First.” Right, nothing existed
before. The energy for the inflation came from nothing.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (105)
To: Ian Lin 6 Sep 94 13:51:10
Subject: EVOLUTION

MG> The chances that you exist from the beginning of recorded
MG> history ONLY (or from 4004 BC which you prefer to believe) is
MG> 10,000,000 to the 300th power. Roughly 10 to the 2099 power.
MG> which means you are too improbable to exist and therefore you do
MG> not exist.

IL> That theory is flawed. He already exists therefore he
IL> cannot be non- existent. The improbability remains but his
IL> existence fortifies that he was that slight chance that he
IL> would exist. All those others who never got the chance are
IL> the ones that aren’t around, all 10^2099 -1 of them. 🙂

And the same faulty application of statistics to attempt to
attack evolution is false for the same reason.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: Ian Lin 6 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

MG> You are not being surprised because you have no idea what
MG> you are talking about.

IL> Now that’s not very nice, is it? I do know what I’m talking
IL> about. We do have an idea of what a comet would do on
IL> impact. I suspect it would not really result in a flood
IL> after all. It would probably vapourize in the atmosphere,
IL> at least the ice.

The “flood” required enough water to cover the highest
mountain which is around six miles high. That works out to
roughly 1,200,000,000 cubic miles of water. That is a sphere of
water roughly 680 miles in diameter. That is six times the
thickness of the atmosphere by the most generous measure of how
thick it is. Just where to you expect this vaporization to
occur? (For comparison the dino-killer is estimated to have been
maybe ten miles across.)

Given the velocity of comets and the velocity of the earth
the energy release upon impact would be around
26,583,013,124,236,800,000,000,000 joules. One joule is enough
energy to raise 2.2 pounds 1.1 meters. I am not going to bother
to go further and dig out the references but that is more than
sufficient energy to raise the temperature of the atmosphere by
at least 1000 degrees.

Are there any other questions?

IL> What’s your answer?

There was no flood. There is no evidence of a flood,
period.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (116)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 6 Sep 94 17:10:10
Subject: HEALTH CARE

MG>MS> MG> MS> They have already thought of that. Everything “phases in”
~~~~~~~~~

MG> Social Security is eating up some 14% of payroll in
MG> this country at th moment. Do you think that could have
MG> been the first step?
MG>
MG> Pre-paid health care will take another 14%. After that
MG> we get to pay regular taxes.

BS> Let’s take all these hidden costs out in the open.

BS> Employees pay the full Soc Sec cost. No more employer-paid
BS> health care. Give the employee a raise, if necessary, but
BS> let the employee do the paying, even if coverage is kept
BS> mandatory.
BS>
BS> When people see what they are paying, when the true cost is
BS> no longer hidden and passed on to consumers, then attitudes
BS> will change.

Something like that has been tried by employers to cut
expenses, either one or three no deduction checks and the 2nd or
4th of the month being the only one the accountant to prepare but
it had all the deductions from it. Needless to say the IRS did
not like that.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Live fast, love well, and have a glorious end.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (117)
To: Scot Bear 6 Sep 94 17:17:10
Subject: Prohibition v banning

> Prohibition vice Regulation
> by
> Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>
>
SB>
SB> Uh, the word is “versus”; not “vice”. The proper
SB> abbreviation is “vs.”…

Actually half correct but it should read “Regulation vice
Prohibition.”

SB> How do you expect people to believe your monologues if you
SB> don’t even know how to use the words?

I count the responses I get. I get across quite well.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (118)
To: Scot Bear 6 Sep 94 17:18:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold

> Welfare and the End of the Cold War
> by
> Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>
SB>
SB> Hitler put people in “camps”, too…
SB>
SB> You’re a crazy fucker.

These are completely voluntary.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: That which does not destroy us makes us greater.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: Paul West 5 Sep 94 16:05:10
Subject: 06: Free To Speak? 01

PW> In a message to Paul West <08-31-94 18:19> Matt Giwer wrote:

PW> Free To Speak?
PW>
MG> Wall Street Journal, August 8, 1994
MG> By Heather MacDonald

PW> Thank you for posting that great piece from the Journal
PW> Matt! Much appreciated even though I am now totally
PW> depressed.

And if you come across “Another Nail” do not suicide. It is
really for the best.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (247)
To: Mike Marotta 6 Sep 94 01:03:10
Subject: What is a Coin?

MM> Subject: SOCRATES VERSUS THE U.S. MINT
MM> from: [email protected] <Michael E. Marotta>
MM> to: [email protected]
MM>
MM> In Numismatic News for July 5, 1994, Alan Herbert claimed that
MM> the US Mint holds legal title to the word “coin.” He said:
MM> The term “coin” has been legally and professionally
MM> banned for used in the hobby to prevent applying it
MM> to medals, tokens and other similar pieces.
MM> A coin is defined as a piece that has been issued
MM> and is assigned a specific value by a legal body
MM> entitled to issue money.

I do not know the validity of this claim. However it would
be impossible to copyright or trademark and those are the only
venues of controlling the use of a word and must be strenuously
with each infraction else either is lost.

Now that we are passed that it must be a matter of special
law and it would be better to have the exact wording of the law.

Further, I do not believe it could pass constitutional
muster as there is no exclusive delegation of the power of
coining money to the US Congress, it is simply an authorization.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn’t taste the same without the dolphin.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940910 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (185)
To: All 7 Sep 94 01:47:10
Subject: Spam facts

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to ALL in the DEBATE conference.

The five top states in Spam consumption are Hawaii, Alaska,
Arkansas, Texas, and Alabama.
—
ю SPEED 1.30 >01< ю I never apologize.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (234)
To: Ken Pangborn 7 Sep 94 13:08:10
Subject: The citadel

P> George Orwell had it all wrong. He was 10 years off and got
MG> the gender wrong.

MG> IT’S 1994……….. LONG LIVE BIG SISTER!!!!!

MG> And her name is Janet “the dyke” Reno.

KP> Now Matt – she hasn’t admitted being a dyke yet!

You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was
found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: You only get six fouls per game. Make them count.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (236)
To: All 7 Sep 94 14:40:10
Subject: Moral Evolution

Moral Progress
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/7>

Often we become depressed over the morality of our public
officials. We see graft and corruption in the news and ten times
as much commonly known or rumored. We often despair that this can
ever be corrected.
But there is good news. There has been massive progress in
the moral standards of public officials over the last sixty to
seventy years. When we look back to the time of Prohibition we
say judges, prosecutors, the police and politcians at all levels
on the take.
Back then the FBI was active in ferreting out this
corruption. It was common knowledge that it was happening.
After all, considering all the effort being expended against
illegal alcohol it was obvious that, with alcohol being so
available, there was no other possible explanation.
Consider the progress we have made today. Despite the ready
availability of drugs no public official today is taking money
from anyone involved in drugs. The FBI has not even bothered to
search it out as it is clear there is none.
This is an outstanding example of how moral progess is
possible and that people can change. Despite the tens of
millions of dollars the drug cartels have to buy protection, and
certainly they have offered it, no one has accepted it. Consider
no one has taken that money.
Occasionally you will hear of an official or police officer
who has been found using them and even less common dealing them
but these are personal failings and do not reflect upon the use
of their public office.
Consider, despite the graft and corruption the comes to like
in other areas where there is less money to buy protection, in
the area where there is the most money our public officials are
prisine.
And this has been going on for about two decades when major
smuggling operations started. First marijuana and then cocaine
along with a major increase in that old favorite heroin and for
all these years no corruption.
A cynic may say there is enough money to keep it all quiet
but how could that be? We have the FBI and the DEA specifically
charged with finding such corruption. The FBI at least is still
an incorruptible agency in the mold of J. Edgar Hoover.
And they uncover no one and find no problems for this last
score of years. Thefore we know the cynic must be wrong. The
FBI would never be on the take not to find drug corruption.
As I write I am listening to the new of St. Petersburg with
the police department, the sheriff’s office and the DEA roaming
the city with 400 warrants and having made 30 arrests as of the
2pm news. It was announced they were all for a cocaine and crack
ring.
Do you not admire a coordinated operation to shut down drug
distribution in the city that puts it on the radio while it is in
progress? Do you not have to respect these law enforcement
agencies knowing the dealers mainly sell during the day and do
not have radios? This way they can keep the citizens aware of
what a great job they are doing fighting drugs and still make all
400 arrests.
Consider the days of Prohibition where a cop on the take
would phone the place to be raided and warn them. That is such
blatant and obvious corruption. But announcing the operation to
the press and getting minute by minute coverage nothing is
compromised and there is no corruption.
Again the cynic might suggest drug dealers or even buyers
might listen to radio but there have been laws passed against
boom boxes so they no longer exist. We all know the rock
stations do not cover local news so even if they had any kind of
radio they would never learn what is happening until they are
arrested. But there is no need to single out Tampa, this is the
strategy in all cities.
There is no conclusion other than there has been a great
leap in the moral evolution of our public figures since early in
this century. This is a remarkable event in that it is perhaps
the first time in history where, whithout any increase in threat
or penalty, the level of corruption has so markedly and
observably decreased and in such a short period of time. And
this in the face of perhaps a greater temptation from more
sources and even more money available for graft.
This change is certainly worthy of serious study by
socialogists as if why it has happened can be discovered perhaps
it can be applied to other areas of human affairs, perhaps even
the drug dealers themselves. I am proud to be the first to
identify this phenomon and hope it can be used for the betterment
of the human race.
* * * * *
Further distribution is encouraged by the author.
Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

—
ю SPEED 1.30 >01< ю Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940912 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (40)
To: Ian Lin 8 Sep 94 02:30:10
Subject: creationism

MV> PO214, on the other hand, has a halflife of only 128 days!
MV> Rock formed and hardened out of cosmic dust in three
MV> months?! But hold on to your rock layers-it gets even
MV> worse!! PO218 has a halflife of only 0.0016 seconds!!! This
MV> means that rock formed and hardened around this element in
MV> less than one second!!!???. During the trials a man named

IL> Yup. It could happen. Just at the right time. And the rest
IL> continued to decay into other elements. Why not? It’s
IL> possible, though it seems unlikely. Not all samples of it
IL> on earth would be the same age. Similar samples would decay
IL> at similar rates but not at the same time. What if there
IL> was a mass of it and just a bit got caught and the rest
IL> didn’t, and then the rest just continued to decay? Is there
IL> evidence of the other elements that these cited ones decay
IL> into being near or with the rare element that decays in
IL> such a short time?
IL>
IL> Actually, I’ve never even heard of those isotopes. I
IL> suppose that’s something to look up.

This is the mica halo anomoly. Fully discussed in
Scientific American about 2 years ago. Try your library.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgin
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (41)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 8 Sep 94 02:32:10
Subject: CRIME BILL

SS> After a moment of reflection,Bob Sillyheimer shared this insight with Scott
SS> Summers

BS> I’m surprised there wasn’t a bigger fight by Jesse Helms and friends
BS> against the crime bill. I am informed that it added “sexual orientation”
BS> to the list the federal “hate crimes” law protects.

SS> <yawn> Yeah, you perverts are downright popular with the present
SS> <yawn> stration. Enjoy it while you can. When it changes, and it
SS> <yawn> will, it will h a vengence.

And majority of such crime is gay on gay, which of course
can not be gay and can not be counted, not can gay on straight.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I,Matthias Gloriosus,I,messager to 1000s,I am my ideal.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (42)
To: Jackie Bradbury 8 Sep 94 02:53:10
Subject: Gibson’s Gibberish

MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where
MG> he lighted.

JB> I sure wish POLITICS would stop sending us their trash…

It appears we are being treated as an unsanitary landfill.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (43)
To: Scot Bear 8 Sep 94 02:55:10
Subject: Giwer’s Lies

> SS> This isn’t William’s first visit to CONTROV. He comes
> in,
> SS> he turns over all the furniture, he declares victory
> and
> SS> leaves.
>
> MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where
> he
> MG> lighted.
>
> I have NEVER EVER been banned from ANY echo. So I must
> ask you…
>
> Why does this guy lie?

SB> Because no one will listen to him if he tells the truth.
SB> Just like the “class liar” back in school, he has to make
SB> the most-outrageous statements to get attention!

To be honest about it I did not notice it happening at the
time. I did notice the moderator in Politics saying it happened.
You may ask Bloomy.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (44)
To: Jackie Bradbury 8 Sep 94 03:01:10
Subject: Huh?

JB> But you criticize Matt for proposing camps for welfare
JB> people saying, “Hitler had camps too”, when clearly Matt’s
JB> proposal is not very similar at all, except the fact that
JB> he proposes using physical camps (i.e., nobody’s getting
JB> shipped there unvoluntarily, anyone can leave at any time –
JB> at least that’s what I read) – unused army bases, I
JB> believe. Here, you seem to think that if it is _like_
JB> something Hitler did, it’s bad.
JB>
JB> Huh?

“Hitler is exactly the horrible example I say he was and not
one bit more.” — Scot Bare

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am not a number. I am a free man.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (45)
To: Ian Lin 8 Sep 94 03:14:10
Subject: Joycelyn Elders

SS> You liked that, did you? My personal favorite is Elders
SS> saying, “We can build safer guns. We can make safer
SS> bullets.” ROFL Coming soon to a store near you. Bullets
SS> with a Elders approved warning lable. I recommend,
SS> “Warning. Incoming fire has the right of way.”

IL> I seriously wonder if she was hired by Rush just to give
IL> his show something to do. After all, can any individual
IL> REALLY be that stupid?

Are not all Clinton appointees the same?

Aspin gets 42 people killed by his incompetence.

Bentsen sells T-Bills in a way that would get a corporate
comptroller fired.

Reno has child abuse fantasies and orders deadly force.

And Elders, in charge of and in direct control of every
major Federal health organization, wants safer bullets.

She is the epitome of a Clinton appointee, embodying all the
talents Reno, Apsin and Bentsen lack.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (46)
To: Dean Nusholtz 8 Sep 94 03:23:10
Subject: Mt. Carmel

DN> Remember the Warsaw ghetto? It all depends on what you want left
DN> standing when its all over.

DN> But you know the truth because I have given it before. In
DN> 1980 the BAFT did over 30,000 gun searches a year. That’s
DN> where they trace a gun used in a crime back to its origin.

As you know, dumb shit, Congress determined that 80% of
their actions were technical infractions and entrapment.

DN> By the time Reagan got through with the BAFT it was doing
DN> less then 2000.

2000 might just be the legitimate cases they had.

As you also know Congress recommended the BATF be disbanded
and that is 2000 more cases than Congress wanted them to conduct.

The moral was around zero and what’s more,
DN> those that were highly qualified and experienced left for
DN> other jobs. Those that were left to run the BAFT in 1992
DN> were the dregs, space cadets with guns. You saw the out
DN> come of this in Weaver and also mirrored as well in Scott.

You perhaps should be writing alternate history science
fiction. What you recount did not happen in this timeline.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Purple Pedophile must die!
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (47)
To: Scott Summers 8 Sep 94 03:29:10
Subject: Ruby Ridge

SS> I was wondering if you had the messages you’d posted during
SS> Randy Weaver’s trial archived. I had them on a floppy that
SS> threw a shoe. I need to get hold of them.

If you get no response, remind me in two weeks.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (121)
To: Ken Pangborn 9 Sep 94 12:57:10
Subject: The citadel

KP> Now Matt – she hasn’t admitted being a dyke yet!

MG> You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was
MG> found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?

KP> I have heard this “rumor” repeatedly Matt. I am not
KP> aware of any substantiation of it. Neither the minor gir,
KP> her parents, or anyone else allegedly directly involved has
KP> come forward to confirm the story that I am aware of.

The attorney from Miami was on Mark Larsen’s show last year.
He had an affidavit with his personal knowledge of events and he
documented the lack of any record of the arrest or disposition.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Barney Must Die!
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (122)
To: Chris Boyd 9 Sep 94 14:18:10
Subject: Evolution

MS> How come a very early ancestor (apes) and a modern
MS> descendent (man) coexist, yet there are no living
MS> in-between stages?
MS>
MS> Not just with apes-humans, but with any species? Are there
MS> coexisting species in the same evolutionary chain? If so,
MS> why not with apes-humans?

CB> Perhaps evolution didn’t take place worldwide at the
CB> same time.
CB>
CB> What if man evolutionized from apes in an isolated
CB> area, and grew from there? Wouldn’t the rest of the
CB> apes not in that isolated area become nonaffected?

What you describe is what happen. It did all occur at the
same place at least but over time. The slight difference in the
races appear to be the results of generalized selective pressures
and isolation. For example it is not clear why orientals and
caucasians are different save for isolation. It is clear that
orientals in the tropics did not develop negroid melanin as they
were not isolated from orientals up through Siberia as the
mediterranean separated negroid and caucasian.

There must be some popularized book discussing this but I am
not aware of a title.

MS> Do you find creationism just too fantastic to even say it could
MS> be credible?

CB> I don’t find *any* evidence too fantastic. It’s only
CB> that I haven’t seen one iota of evidence to back
CB> creationism up. That’s the reason I’m a little
CB> skeptical.

You have seen zero evidence in support of creation. There
is nothing more to creationism that propaganda attacks on
evolution.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (123)
To: Mark Simmons 9 Sep 94 14:24:10
Subject: Evolution

MS> If its not true then how is it false?
MS> All I’ve been given so far is the term “emergient
MS> properties” and that Mr. Lewis is arguing from ignorance.
MS>
MS> IMO, Lewis wasn’t saying that he couldn’t understand
MS> evolution. He was saying that if the above statement was
MS> true then he couldn’t understand how thoughts would have
MS> any meaning.

Lewis was bringing many other things he did not understand
and arguing that his failure to understand those things was
sufficient reason to bring evolution into question.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (124)
To: Thomas Paine 9 Sep 94 14:37:10
Subject: Racism/voice opinion

TP> I’m bummed out. I just realized that my own
TP> particular genetic line doesn’t have a descriptive
TP> derogatory slang term…or at least not one I have heard
TP> of. I guess that means we’re pretty unsuccessful. Hell,
TP> even the FRENCH rate a bad name….

Doesn’t Limey work?

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: My every message, a conference unto itself.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940914 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (52)
To: Phillip Jones 11 Sep 94 01:06:10
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!

MG> I would love to but I don’t have FTP ability as yet.
MG> I was hoping someone else might and do the same thing.

PJ> 1:231/110 (charleston sheriff’s office bbs!) has it
PJ> available for FREQ as CRIMEBIL.ARJ. It runs 333k. They
PJ> support 14.4 bps. It is VERY dense reading, and makes
PJ> innumerable references to other bills, so it is still hard
PJ> to get a complete picture, but I am not finding a lot of
PJ> the horror-show stuff rumor had was in it…

Thank you. I have heard a claim there are only 19 pages of
material that directly address crime in the bill and that does
sound like a lot of reading for little benefit. However, do you
have a phone number?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (53)
To: Jim Higgins 11 Sep 94 01:18:10
Subject: Hate

MG> But then hardly a 1/4 of it is polemic so I have no serious
MG> problem with what I post nor with those who respond.

JH> No argument from here with any of that, but I do need to
JH> confess something… when you responded with that bit above
JH> about Thomasina Paine and a Kung Fu epic I thought you were
JH> just laying a nonsensical non sequiter on me and my movie
JH> review style response was pure babble intended to be some
JH> sort of response in kind. If you got something which
JH> seemed to be on topic from it I wish you would let me know
JH> what it was… 😉

No way. Death Race 2000 should be required viewing for all
would be revolutionaries. It will relieve the stress during the
real thing. If you missed that, John Carradine Jr. (grasshopper
himself) had the lead as the cross country race car driver where
they did count points for the kills along the way. Thomasina
Paine was the leader of the revolutionaries which Mr. President,
vacationing at his retreat in China blamed on the French.

Try Blockbuster. The black humor and the early Stallone as
Machinegun Joe Viturbo is worth the $3.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Never assume conspiracy where stupidity will suffice.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (54)
To: Jackie Bradbury 11 Sep 94 01:33:10
Subject: Huh?

MG> JB> Huh?

MG> “Hitler is exactly the horrible example I say he was
MG> and not one bit more.” — Scot Bare

JB> These Hitler comparisons are getting idiotic, IMHO.
JB> “Hitler ate saurkraut, so we should ban it!!!” “Y’know,
JB> you shouldn’t have a German Shepherd – Hitler had one”.
JB>
JB> Sheesh. At least, we could all be consistent here.. but I
JB> have a feeling that is too much to ask…

Which is why I have been consistantly pushing for an image
of what he really was. As I have noted anyone wishing to fill
his shoes in this country would never wear brown, never have a
mustache and keep a kosher kitchen.

As long as he does not look like the popular image of Hitler
he can not be a Hitler even though he is pushing for the exact
ideal of national social and fascism that lead Europe down the
last fun road.

We have had five years of real peace save for the brush fire
wars. No more than fifteen to go before tensions mount to
serious war again.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: If the gods do not listen, what good are they?
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (55)
To: Scot Bear 11 Sep 94 01:39:10
Subject: Prohibition v banning

>> Prohibition vice Regulation
> SB>
> SB> Uh, the word is “versus”; not “vice”. The proper
>
> SB> abbreviation is “vs.”…
>
> Actually half correct but it should read “Regulation
> vice
> Prohibition.”
SB>
SB> Better look it up again… there is no use in the English
SB> language of the word “vice” in the context that you are
SB> using it. the word is: VERSUS, not “vice”. It’s a
SB> colloquialism that seems to emanate from somewhere in the
SB> Southern part of the US.

I will. The second definition of it as a preposition gives,
in place of, instead of, as alternate meanings. (Webster’s New
World Dictionary.) Whereas versus is transative in that either
order is correct, vice would be Regulation in place of
Prohibition which was the intent.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: “Give Corruption a Chance.” Matt Giwer
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (56)
To: Scot Bear 11 Sep 94 01:51:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold

>> Welfare and the End of the Cold War
>> by
>> Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>
> SB>
> SB> Hitler put people in “camps”, too…
> SB>
> SB> You’re a crazy fucker.
>
> These are completely voluntary.

SB> Voluntary? How “voluntary” is it if you have no other
SB> alternatives to turn to? Give me a break! Lose all your
SB> income and tell me that you “volunteer” to live like
SB> cattle…

No one is required to accept charity. It is completely
voluntary. They may seek out other means such as begging on the
streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.
This would be simply one option of many but it would be the only
one where there are public funds available.

If they do not like Hitler-esque camps, don’t go. There is
no force. It is all voluntary.

As to living like cattle, I am talking about military bases.
They will live quite as well as our enlisted military have lived
for decades. If that it not good enough then our military was
being shafted and the welfare seekers are damned lucky to get
that.

What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in a
single family dwelling where they want to live and with food and
utilities all in the most expensive form it can be procured.

Where did this burden come from?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (57)
To: All 11 Sep 94 02:11:10
Subject: 1996 prediction

1996.

Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.

Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (58)
To: Jackie Bradbury 11 Sep 94 02:27:10
Subject: Gibson’s Gibberish

MG> MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where
MG> MG> he lighted.

MG> JB> I sure wish POLITICS would stop sending us their trash…

MG> It appears we are being treated as an unsanitary
MG> landfill.

JB> We need to design a recycling program for POLITICS pronto…

What say we declare him penitent to the moderator and vouch
for immediate reinstatement there? Here we can fake a “please
come home” message to him.

He will not know the difference, he teaches history in
Arkansas. His mother’s maiden name was Gump.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy isn’t a civil right; it is a privledge.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940915 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: Ann Ross 12 Sep 94 03:30:10
Subject: lets wager

MG> By now she is probably biting anything that comes within
MG> snapping distance.

AR> Alllll that mental masturbation is only bemusing to
AR> me. I feel sure you really, really NEED it too as
AR> the only thing you can do, human company being
AR> beyond you.

I would presume you are not offering yourself as an
example of human companionship. As a dom dyke you do the best
you can. Other than that I am not impressed.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (192)
To: All 12 Sep 94 14:15:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

Some months ago I posted a message saying how easy it would
be to take off from National with a plane full of explosives and
crash it into the White House.

I forget which conference, most like Controvery or Debate,
but just to make certain I find that conference I will broadcast
this message.

I was told it was impossible, that there were secret
everything that would prevent that from happening, that there was
no way it could possibly happen. There was speculation on
radars, missile defenses, air craft ready to scramble to take out
out, there were even imaginary loitering air craft in the air at
all times.

Sorry about that folks. It just happened. 9/12 a small
aircraft crashed on the White House lawn. It was not shot down.
The pilot died. Had he the mind he could have had a hundred
pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator and aimed a little
better and hit the White House.

Are there any further questions?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (193)
To: Ian Lin 12 Sep 94 15:13:10
Subject: BIG BANG 1/2

MG> You have spent how many years applying your formal education
MG> in physics to understanding the matter?

IL> 1. The big bang theory and generally most stuff about space
IL> was NOT covered for me yet.

And you are not going to get it short of grad school. You
are going to have to go that route or spend a lot of time getting
self taught.

MG> The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum
MG> fluctuation in the energy level of nothing. It is that simple
MG> but the math takes a little longer.

IL> I didn’t think “nothing” could have energy.

It is right there in quantum mechanics. Look up the
creation and destruction of complimentary particles. There
should be a mention of it in every introductory textbook. Pursue
the references.

IL> Something from NOTHING? I just can’t believe that.

MG> What does belief have to do with anything?

IL> Something from nothing -> illogical. Belief is thinking. It
IL> all boils down to personal belief based on logical facts. I
IL> see no logic here so I can’t believe it.

You are using an intellectual concept of nothing rather than
working from an actual study of nothing. You are imagining its
properties rather than working with those properties. To know
what nothing is really like you have to study nothing as you find
it. When you do that you find it has a very high energy level.
And because of quantum mechanics that energy level fluctuates.

The probability that it can fluctuate enough to have an
energy level sufficient to cause inflation in so small in our
universe that with all its size and time it effectively can not
happen in millions of billions of years.

However, time is a property of the inflation. Before there
was time statistics in time is meaningless. Therefore there were
all magnitudes of fluctuations at once. One that was large
enough is our universe. The other large ones are other
universes.

MG> Not only are you not a scientist you are not a rational
MG> thinker. Please explain the source of the “explosions”? What
MG> exploded?

IL> Matter. I’m THE rational thinker. I’m not a scientist yet.
IL> Explosions from explosive compounds. As I stated, I don’t
IL> believe there was a time when there was nothing. It’s
IL> illogical.

What in the world does logic have to do with first premises?
Would you tell me what is logical about the existence of gravity?
Stars and planets are logical once gravity exists but what about
gravity in the first place? And while you are trying to explain
logic, please explain the logic of quantum mechanics. You do not
even have to start with why it exists but go directly to the way
it behaves.

Why believe there was nothing at one time? It
IL> seems to be, logically, that both sides have a fundamental
IL> belief that there was nothing and then there was something.
IL> Why? We’ve found that there has always been energy and it
IL> simply takes on different forms–we can’t create that.

But matter and energy does appear spontaniously it simply
annialates itself under almost all circumstances. Consider the
Hawkins hypthesized radiation from the edge of a black hole.

IL> Why not believe that all matter and energy have
IL> always been here?

Belief has nothing to do with it. The evidence indicates it
was not. As to logic and always been here, when did always start
and why would it always be here.

Both beliefs on the surface seem equally
IL> baseless but this is the state we’re in–one with all the
IL> matter and energy. To assume there was a time when there
IL> was all the matter and energy is logical since we’re in it
IL> is logical. To assume there was nothing at some point in
IL> time seems ludicrous since we can’t create or destroy
IL> matter or energy.

If you will read A Brief History of Time you will find black
holes can. Anything on the other side of the event horizon is no
longer in our universe.

IL> Both the creationist and big bang theorist views now seem
IL> illogical to me so I guess I can’t support either one of
[ Continued In Next Message… ]

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (194)
To: Ian Lin 12 Sep 94 15:13:10
Subject: BIG BANG 2/2

[ …Continued From Previous Message ]

IL> them.

You need to study things before you declare them illogical.

MG> According to real science it is not.

IL> Real science isn’t constant. And, to be blunt, you’re not
IL> rational, not a scientist, and not even as good as I am
IL> concerning ANYTHING you’ve writ- ten about and I’m just in
IL> high school. This isn’t just an idle observation since
IL> others have made the same remarks. Matt, you’re a fool in
IL> fool’s clothing.

The folks at U of Cincinnati who awarded me the BS in
Physics thought otherwise. The folks who signed my paycheck for
25 years in R&D also thought otherwise. I would suggest you
complete your degree program and then come back and talk about
it.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (196)
To: All 12 Sep 94 15:57:10
Subject: newsletter interest

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to ALL in the LAW conference.

I know much of the response I will get but I am looking
over my op-ed output and I realize I can produce a bi-monthly
newsletter with only technical difficulties and investment costs.
Now I am not asking for any kind of commitment only of
interest in subscribing at say $18 a month. Obviously I could
not afford to object to Xeroxing and distributing it and would in
fact decline to object if I could if the subscription address
were included in the Xeroxing. This of course is not a license
to violate copyright but rather an observation of reality.
I have not gone through the costing exercise but I can not
see it being more than $18 a year, more like $12 if I stick with
simple reduction and Xeroxing on my side, but I can’t say at the
moment.
The tentative title is “The Revolution Watch.” It will
focus upon what I have been posting and for those who have not
been reading it will be topical and focusing upon the rights of
free men and infringements upon them by our government.
So I am asking, is anyone interested? Please speak up if
you are interested. If you are not interested, do not waste the
bandwidth, as I would only base a decision upon the number of
subsribers not upon the non-subscribers. 1/100th of 1% of the
population would be an huge success in my terms. That 99.99%
would not be interested is of no interest to me.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Stone Age is too good for them.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (197)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 12 Sep 94 16:13:10
Subject: 1/3RE:MT.CARMEL

BS> I’m just curious to know what people are trying to achieve
BS> in the WACO discussion. What are the goals? I don’t know
BS> much about it, but am curious to understand why it stays so
BS> much alive and unsettled. Just what are people concerned to
BS> prove? Knowing that might help me to understand why the
BS> issue still attracts so much attention.

It was blatantly an unjustified attack. It was a great
injustice that resulted in around 100 dead all round and the
responsibility is clearly on the government. The call is for
justice in the form of criminal prosecution and clear changes in
procedures to assure it never happens again.

Waco was not the first incident or the first deaths to
occur, it was simply the worst. And they have not stopped.
Every so often someone posts a list of the recent break-ins that
are completely wrong and unjustified so they have not stopped.

It is a matter of time before there is another Waco. This
time those who might be targeted are ready. They know they have
nothing to lose as the government will kill them for resisting.
They will not sue for a cease fire but they will kill off the
government people as the Davidians could have done. The
government response will not be to admit error and forget it.

It may be the spark the revolution.

This government has to be stopped from its current path. It
is that simple. One way or another it will be.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (198)
To: Ian Lin 12 Sep 94 16:36:10
Subject: EVOLUTION

IL> would exist. All those others who never got the chance are
IL> the ones that aren’t around, all 10^2099 -1 of them. 🙂

MG> And the same faulty application of statistics to attempt to
MG> attack evolution is false for the same reason.

IL> I don’t know what the stats are. We don’t know because we
IL> don’t know what all the creatures are that never got born
IL> or who died and left traces we can’t find or no traces at
IL> all of their existence. Simply find that and we’ll compile
IL> the information correctly for the benefit of the world.
IL>
IL> Being our world saviour, I expect you to do it and hand me
IL> the report by next Tuesday. I understand that you’re going
IL> to be busy with that Big Bang / Creation report to be done
IL> on Monday so I’m being lenient.

You obviously do not have the background to understand the
answer as yet.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (201)
To: Neil Schulman 12 Sep 94 17:11:10
Subject: Independence 1/4

NS> * Original to all at 1:4321/1 in “IN_COUNTRY”
NS> * Forwarded Sat Sep 10 1994 00:52:37 by Scott Summers at 1:106/449.1

NS> This is how the United States started:

NS> “In Congress, July 4, 1776

NS> I think this can actually get on the ballot in at least a dozen
NS> states in the next few years — and win in three or four of them
NS> the first time out.

NS> Is your state one of them?

NS> Here is the New Declaration of Independence.

NS> J. Neil Schulman
NS> September 1, 1994

NS> ***************************************************************

NS> THE AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE BALLOT INITIATIVE

NS> Preface

I like it.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Stand aside! I write large messages.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940917 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (109)
To: Ian Lin 13 Sep 94 11:09:10
Subject: BIG BANG

MG> You have spent how many years applying your formal education
MG> in physics to understanding the matter?

IL> 1. The big bang theory and generally most stuff about space
IL> was NOT covered for me yet.

What is your excuse for not searching it out yourself?

MG> The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum
MG> fluctuation in the energy level of nothing. It is that simple
MG> but the math takes a little longer.

IL> I didn’t think “nothing” could have energy.

It does. Now you know.

IL> Something from NOTHING? I just can’t believe that.

MG> What does belief have to do with anything?

IL> Something from nothing -> illogical. Belief is thinking. It
IL> all boils down to personal belief based on logical facts. I
IL> see no logic here so I can’t believe it.

Then you obviously need to learn what has been known for
fifty years.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Truth: Get it fresh or not at all.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (110)
To: Ian Lin 13 Sep 94 11:17:10
Subject: creationism

MG> This is the mica halo anomoly. Fully discussed in
MG> Scientific American about 2 years ago. Try your library.

IL> Thanks! I may even have them NOW! I’ll search for all from
IL> 92 and maybe 91 that I have. I might find it. It would be
IL> great if you had it and told me which date the issue was,
IL> maybe a page number too!

Learning to research is essential. Why did you not expect
me to type in the article also? Hint, the December issue
contains an index for the year.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (112)
To: Ian Lin 13 Sep 94 11:43:10
Subject: Joycelyn Elders

MG> Aspin gets 42 people killed by his incompetence.

IL> How? I didn’t know about this.

You missed Somalia?

MG> She is the epitome of a Clinton appointee, embodying all the
MG> talents Reno, Apsin and Bentsen lack.

IL> It’s pathetic. Wanna move to Canada?

June, July, Winter bothers me.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (118)
To: All 13 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: Dershowitz: Gender/Vi 1/2

* Forwarded by MATT GIWER from the LAW conference.
* Original from BOB HIRSCHFELD to ALL on 09-10-94.

United Features
[09.01.94]

Gender war often assails the truth

By Alan Dershowitz

In the gender war declared by radical feminists against men, the
weapon of choice has been the statistic. Rhetorical warriors have
thrown around an arsenal of data designed to show the world that
men assault, stalk, terrorize, and kill their wives, lovers, and
others of the opposite sex in numbers that should frighten any
woman away from ever trusting a man. As in other contexts,
the first casualty of war is often truth. Now we are beginning
to see a reaction to the statisti-babble that has distorted
gender discussions for so many years.

New studies have raised serious doubts about what has become the
conventional wisdom in intergender violence. These recent studies
tend to show that violence between men and women is more of a
two-way street than previously supposed. Like most reactions to
overreactions, these new studies should not be taken as gospel.
Their statistics, like the statistics they seek to supplant, may
also hide political agendas and must be subjected to rigorous
scientific testing and retesting before they are allowed to
become the new conventional wisdom.

But even before this testing process is completed, the new
studies should be considered in the debate over intergender
violence.

Some cases in point:

In March of 1994, Secretary of Health and Human Services Donna
Shalala threw out a statistic claiming that 20 percent to 30
percent of all women who came to hospital emergency rooms came
“because of physical abuse by their partners.” That statistic
quickly became the conventional wisdom, repeated by women’s
advocates, the media, and policy makers. The only problem is
that it has no basis in fact. It was derived from a single,
10-year-old survey of people admitted to one inner-city hospital
in Detroit. In that survey, both men and women were asked
whether they were ever “pushed around,” “hit,” or “kicked” by
their spouses, boyfriends, or girlfriends. They were not asked
what brought them to the emergency room for this visit. Twenty
percent of the men answered yes, and twenty-five percent of the
women answered yes — a far cry from the gender statistic tossed
out by Shalala. Moreover, experts on violence point out that the
Detroit hospital is far from typical, since it treats a much
higher proportion of people the unemployed, the poor, and those
who cohabit without being married who tend to be in abusive
relationships.

Other studies confirm the politically incorrect conclusion that
“women initiate violence against their male partners as often as
men initiate violence against their female partners,” according
to a University of New Hampshire researcher who cites 30 such
studies. These studies also show that “about half of all
domestic violence is bidirectional, with both parties
participating in the aggression.” This contrasts sharply with
the statistics bandied about by some women’s advocates which
purport to show that 94 percent of battered women never hit
back.

The truth appears to be that violence within marriage and other
intimate relationships goes both ways. For example, the data for
gay and lesbian couples show about the same rate of violence as
for intergender couples. But these more balanced statistics do
not serve the political goals of the gender warriors who would
have us believe that only women are victims and only men are
aggressors.

There is, of course, some truth to the widespread belief that men
are more violent than women. In general, men do commit far more
crimes of violence than women do, but their primary victims tend
to be other men, often strangers. It is also true that when it
comes to severe violence within families, men are more often
the aggressors and women more often the victims. But even the
statistics on intergender murder the most serious form of
violence appear to be exaggerated. Both CNN and the Associated
Press have repeated radical feminist claims that 4,000 women a
year are murdered by their current or former mates. But the
Federal Bureau of Investigation which keeps the crime statistics
for the nation puts the number at between 1,300 and 1,400. Even
the number of women who kill their husbands or boyfriends is
sometimes exaggerated, when it serves the political agendas of
those reporting the data. FBI statistics put that figure at
between 600 and 700. Yet the National Clearinghouse for Defense
of Battered Women puts out a statistic claiming that between 800
[ Continued In Next Message… ]

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Ian Lin 14 Sep 94 00:23:10
Subject: big bang variation

IL> Dark matter is supposed to be neutrinos, isn’t it?

No. Dark matter is an hypothesis. There is no evidence it
exists.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Ian Lin 14 Sep 94 00:28:10
Subject: Big bang, evolution

AM> Absolutely correct because “time” itself is a product of
AM> the big bang (or big expansion). It is ludicrous to talk
AM> about a “time” before the big bang. The three products of
AM> the big bang were time, space, and matter/energy.

IL> You’ve got to be joking. Time is constant! I think those
IL> who were pushing the big bang theory, if that’s what it now
IL> entails, went WAY too far. I was surprised to hear that
IL> matter was CREATED from nothing in the Big Bang. But TIME?
IL> Now I’ve heard it all!!
IL>
IL> It’s utterly ludicrous and no more based in fact than “God
IL> did it!” And to think that I really had hope for some
IL> people. 🙁

You need to read up on the special theory of relativity
without using the excuse it has not been covered in class as yet.
You are about 70-80 years behind the times.

Just what is it that ever gave you the impression you have
the slightest comprehension of basic physics?

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: Frank Hay 14 Sep 94 00:38:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

FH> The claim in John 3:16 is that Jesus was the _only_
FH> begotten son of god. That is clearly not the case as Psalms
FH> 2:7 shows.

But that good old “begot” has a specific meaning.

That means there is a Mrs. God around some place.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (190)
To: Ken Pangborn 14 Sep 94 10:30:10
Subject: The citadel

MG> The attorney from Miami was on Mark Larsen’s show last
MG> year. He had an affidavit with his personal knowledge of
MG> events and he documented the lack of any record of the
MG> arrest or disposition.

KP> I heard the show and remain unconvinced Matt. I
KP> heard nothing that came near proof.

Then he can easily have his backside sued off. For what it
is worth, that has not happened.

KP> See ya the 20th!

Where?

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Reach out and offend someone.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (191)
To: Lee Grimsley 14 Sep 94 10:33:10
Subject: The citadel

KP> Now Matt – she hasn’t admitted being a dyke yet!

MG> You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was
MG> found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?

LG> More on this — please!

There is a Miami attorney who is going public with the
“common knowledge” in Miami. That is one of the “well known”
things about her. Another is the drunk driving and resisting
arrest charges against her that her office chose not to
prosecute.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: It ain’t charity with other people’s money.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (201)
To: Travis Beard 14 Sep 94 11:43:10
Subject: 1 nation under god

GR> Would Presbyterian’s shoot at cops? Hell I don’t know.

TB> The religion doesn’t matter. its the abusive action of the
TB> LEOs when they shot at the children.
TB>
TB> The evidence implies the ATF shot first with grenades.

Not evidence, court testimony. The only issue in court was
the prosecution insisting upon calling them diversionary devices
to avoid the negative connotation.

TB> Self defense is also a legal response to deadly force.
GR>
GR> You can’t show the BATF were the ones using deadly force.

TB> And since the place was razed by the FBI and much of the
TB> evidence was lost by the FBI you can’t show the BD’s shot
TB> first.

Against court testimony. The BATF came in shooting the
dogs. While not deadly against people the dogs didn’t survive.

GR> But let’s say all the weapons were legal. Does that give them the
GR> right to refuse service of a warrant? No it doesn’t.

TB> Again. I will vote to aquit anybody who shoots and kills a
TB> LEO serving a no knock warrant.

The Florida Supreme Court agrees with you — when it is
obviously unjustified, that leaving only the risk of flushing
small amounts of drugs, not dealer amounts or guns that justify
such service.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (202)
To: Jackie Bradbury 14 Sep 94 11:51:10
Subject: A Polite Society

MW> I also don’t think you can solve “society’s” ills by giving
MW> everyone assault weapons. That’s a pretty scary option to

JB> I don’t think that many people are seriously saying “give
JB> everyone assault weapons” (BTW: Do you really know what one
JB> IS?).

No one in Congress or in the media does. Why should he be
any different.

MW> me. I don’t really want a gun in my house. Statiscally, if
MW> anyone is ever shot with it, it will be me or one of my
MW> loved ones, not one of the “bad oguys.”

JB> I’ve seen evidence here and there that suggests that the
JB> study you refer to was a flawed one – I’ll see if I can
JB> find where I read that.

The study is correct; the HCI spin on it is wrong. The
study is simply tallying the “perp known to victim” on crime
reports. HCI tried rather successfully to sell the results as
meaning family member. In fact it covered everything from, “I
saw him hanging out on the streets” to “Yeah, its the same guy
who robbed me last week.”

I do not wish to congratulate HCI for their successful spin
doctoring. They mainly provide lies to people who need no
convincing.

JB> We keep two firearms in our house, and my stepfather and
JB> father-in-law both have owned various kinds of firearms all
JB> of their lives, yet have never gotten hurt by either one.
JB> If you choose not to, great, fine. But I choose to, for
JB> various reasons.

At the moment I keep six suitable for home defense (three
specifically bought for the purpose) and five others. There has
never been less than one at times up to around 20. No one harmed
in 28 years.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (210)
To: All 14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 1/2

The Haitian Training Exercise
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/14>

This is the third time I have written on the intention of
President Clinton to kill Haitians. The situation has not
changed since the first time. Clinton needs to buy the votes of
the Congressional Black Caucus and killing Haitians is the
easiest way to do that.
The only thing that has changed from last time is that there
are more justifications for this killing. The most preposterous
one that because months ago it was threatened without thinking it
through it has to be done now — else the US (read Clinton) will
be seen as powerless.
Why in the world this would be a consideration is beyond me.
It is not secret in the world that Clinton is powerless and
ineffective. After Clinton’s first international conference the
other participants left publically wondering to reporters who was
going to take the place of the US. Smashing the Haitian
superpower is not likely to correct that impression.
And look at what we have threatening Haiti. About half the
Naval assets we used to smash the Japanese Fleet at Midway.
Consider there are two aircraft carriers when one aircraft from
one of them could overwhelm the entire Haitian Air Force.
One grants that quasi real life exercises for the Navy are
few and far between and this is as good an exercise as any but
what rational person can believe this has anything more than
media value? More to the point, the Haitian government is
laughing their backsides off at the waste of money as certainly
is every other government in the world.
And if there is any laughing at the US it is at the
absurdity he was elected rather than as a world power.
And consider the strategic and tactical genius of our
Commander in Chief. Haiti needs no more intelligence assets than
a satellite dish to watch the US network news. The assets, the
landing area, everything necessary to optimize resistance has
been spelled out by this administration.
That brings up a minor problem that does not appear to
bother our Commander in Chief in the least. Americans are going
to be killed.
The American people are not as stupid as the President and
his fellow Democrats think. This upcoming killing spree has a
73% disapproval rating. The Democrats explanation of that is
that the reasons simply have not been explained to us peons
despite there having been nothing but justifications floated for
over a year. None of them have sold.
To correct that our President is going to go on TV on the
15th to explain it to us all. After it is over we will have to
marvel at either the belief we can be sold by a rehash of all the
justifications tha have not sold or we will marvel at the
creativity in coming up with a new justification.
There is a very unlikely possibility, that he will admit he
has a political debt to the Black Caucus. The truth does not
come easy to him so this is not likely.
In fact he is taking quite a political risk by going on the
air. Unless he pulls off a very creative, new reason that will
sell to the public, he risks increasing the disapproval rating.
Now rest assured, Democrat Party regulars around the country are
poised to start calling and writing every Democrat in Congress so
that can declare victory for the President and start the invasion
before an honest poll can be taken.
This is hardly speculation. If you remember the same
procedure was followed by Ted Kennedy with his post
Chappequiddick speech, asking people if he should resign or
continue to serve. He declared the people wanted him to stay
before the honest polls contradicted him.
It is an old technique. You will see it used again. Watch
for the invasion in less than the seven days it will take to
conduct an honest poll.
A related question is whether or not the President needs to
or should seek the concurrance of Congress. The Democrats
concentrate on Grenada and Panama while the Republicans
concentrate on the Gulf War. The both have their points.
With regard to the Grenada and Panama examples those
depended upon surprise to minimize casualties. The Gulf War
could not possibily have had any surprise to it. It is obvious
the Haitian killing (it is almost impossible to consider this an
invasion or war) fits the Gulf War model as everything but the
operations plan has been given to the press.
Does have to? No. But it appears prudent when facing the
likelihood of years if not decades of occupation that there be
some review of this commitment of US forces.
Is there a US interest in Haiti? Only in comparing the cost
of returning boat people against the cost of this trainging
exercise with live ammunition.
We have no interest in democracy in Haiti any more than in
any other country in the world. Were Haiti a super power or even
a power there would certainly be an interest in it being a
democracy. But remember, we are not dealing with a civilized or
rational, much less educated people in Haiti.
Haitians are more like to sacrifice a chicken and smear
themselves with its blood to elect their candidate rather than to
vote. They are more likely to put a voodoo curse on the
political opposition than to campaign against him. This is not
an exaggeration of the world view of the average Haitian citizen.
[ Continued In Next Message… ]

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (211)
To: All 14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 2/2

[ …Continued From Previous Message ]

This is the way it is.
Haiti is not a century behind the rest of the world, it is
in an alternate universe. Both the European educated Duvaliers
dealt with the US by putting curses involving chickens on the
President at the time. Were they playing to the masses? The
masses did not like either of them. At least when Castro visited
the US he intended to eat the live chickens he tried to order
from room service.
In any event folks, here it comes. The defining moment in
US history is just around the corner. Praise Clinton.

* * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (212)
To: Mark Stuckless 14 Sep 94 13:23:10
Subject: Gun control

MS> Don’t be too hard on Ian…just because we aren’t young
MS> enough to know everything like he does. 🙂
MS>
MS> I suspect that he’s in high-school still and has swallowed
MS> the politically correct pills his teachers have been
MS> prescribing.

He is. But his expertise is not limited to politics. He
has a definitive knowledge of physics also.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Play your state lottery. Pay your fool tax.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (213)
To: Scott Summers 14 Sep 94 13:26:10
Subject: Hamburger and feces

SS> Here’s the deal. I *think* I was the one who started this
SS> particular thread, and it went something like this. When
SS> the folks started getting sick and dying from the Jack in
SS> the Box hamburgers the gov’t issued a statement that it was
SS> E Coli (sp?) bacteria doing the dirty deed. They further
SS> stated this was because the meat was “undercooked” and
SS> because the meat contained “an unacceptable level of
SS> feces”. My statement was that if there is an unacceptable
SS> level, what follows is that there must be an *acceptable*
SS> level…. much as there is for hair, bug parts and other
SS> tasty goodies. I’ll be damned if I’m going to go research
SS> this question, partially because I don’t think I want to
SS> know the answer.

I am not going to research it for you but the feces level
comes from having to gut the cattle and it is inevitable that
some fraction of the intestines are going to be split and feces
released. Proper procedure is to clean it up immediately but
sterilization is not required. Failure to clean it up (hosing
down the floor) is a health code violation but inspectors can not
be everywhere.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (214)
To: Lee Grimsley 14 Sep 94 13:28:10
Subject: hate\

-=> Quoting Ann Ross to Ian Lin <=-

AR> Grimy makes it clear with all his graphic descriptions what he
AR> really WANTS is for someone to show up and make it with him.

LG> Are you offering me a hand job, Sweet Cakes?

Don’t forget to have two bags ready for when she shows up.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: Lee Grimsley 14 Sep 94 13:37:10
Subject: INTOLERANCE

LG> According to the Associated Press, President Bill
LG> Clinton made his second appearance before a
LG> religious organization, this time the National
LG> Baptist Convention, USA, aand made an impassioned
LG> plea for “family values.”
LG>
LG> Ralph Reed, executive director of the CHRISTIAN
LG> COALITION, said he applauds the president for
LG> “using religious values and using religious
LG> language.”
LG>
LG> Comments?
LG>
LG> Or are you going to ignore this too, you insipid
LG> bag of garbage?

Actually he was appearing at the Comedy Club and doing his
Dan Quayle imitation.

It is election season, remember? Democrats always turn
conservative in election seasons. It gets votes. Strangely
voters believe them every time.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (216)
To: All 14 Sep 94 13:48:10
Subject: Haiti revelation

Leon Pannetta, 9/14, Today Show.

“Haiti is a threat to the security of the United States.”

There you have it direct from a mouthy horse.

He also said that is the case Clinton will be making in his
speech. What he did not say is the qualifier, “IF this trial
balloon reasons sells to the public.”

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (217)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 14 Sep 94 14:04:10
Subject: OSCILLATION

BS> Consider “escape velocity”. A rocket that attains escape
BS> velocity will escape the gravitational pull of the earth
BS> and go into outer space. And it is not pulled into outer
BS> space by the gravitational attraction of the sun or
BS> anything else. A rocket that does not attain escape
BS> velocity will fall back to earth.
BS>
BS> If matter attains “escape velocity”, the universe will
BS> expand forever. The “escape velocity” needed on Jupiter is
BS> much higher than that required on the smaller earth. Escape
BS> velocity depends on planet mass. The escape velocity of
BS> matter in the universe also depends on the mass attracting
BS> matter.

Actually it is the opposite but it is a common
misunderstanding. The escape velocity for both Earth and Jupiter
to leave the solar system is the same. The change in escape
velocity would be higher for earth. The amount energy required
to achieve that change in escape velocity would be greater for
Jupiter because of the greater mass.

Example the escape velocity for an object to leave earth is
the same for on pound as for one ton. The energy required is two
thousand times greater for the one ton load.

A fun little side effect of this is that the energy to get
from the surface to low earth orbit is the same at to get from
low earth orbit to escape the gravitational pull of the galaxy.
That meaning once we are in orbit, we are half way to anywhere or
that getting to orbit is half way to anywhere — albeit slowly.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (218)
To: Charles Hill 14 Sep 94 14:14:10
Subject: Rebel rock

CH> Amendment XIV, section 3:

CH> “No person shall be a Senator or Representative in
CH> Congress, or Elector of President and Vice-President, or
CH> hold any office, civil or military, under the United
CH> States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an
CH> oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of any
CH> State Legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer
CH> of any State, to support the Constitution of the United
CH> States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion
CH> against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies
CH> thereof.”

And I thank you for this point as it establishes the
precident that an oath taken once is good forever.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (219)
To: Alan Macphail 14 Sep 94 14:18:10
Subject: Scientific dating…. 1/2

AM> Quoting William Childress
AM> Talking to All
AM> Subject Scientific dating…. 1/2
AM> Dated 21 Aug 94 10:20:00

WC> While carbon dating for objects older than about 30,000
WC> years, uranium-thorium dating may be possible for objects
WC> up to 500,000 years old.

AM> You are houst on your own pitard. The above statement
AM> could not have come from your stated source, and is, in
AM> fact, the product of your own selective editing. IT IS NOT
AM> AN COMPLETE SENTENCE. Youy have misquoted a source and,
AM> therefore, lied again.

Not only that, it is wrong.

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

+++ююююю r_940920 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (3)
To: All 15 Sep 94 16:32:10
Subject: They’re baaack

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to RICHARD DONOVAN in the POLITICS conference.

RD> From: [email protected]
RD> SUBJECT:US Town Invaded at night – USMC
RD> Organization: Calstate University Northridge

RD> [ Article crossposted from alt.fan.rush-limbaugh ]
RD> [ Author was john moore ]
RD> [ Posted on 8 Sep 1994 02:46:42 GMT ]

RD> Chilling report from the August 3 issue of the
RD> Augusta Chronicle of Augusta Georgia. Tybee Island,
RD> at the mouth of the Savannah River, was invaded late
RD> in the night sometime last July. 300 Marines from the
RD> 22nd Marine Exepeditionary Unit at Camp Lejeune descended
RD> in black helicopters on the unwary townspeople.

RD> According to Lt. Jeff Jurgensen at Camp Lejeune the late
RD> night operation was designed to “provide the Marines the
RD> opportunity to practice” evacuating US citizens who might
RD> be held against their will. Lt. Jurgensen said flyers were
RD> distributed about two hours before the invasion began but
RD> none of the flyers have so-far been recovered.

RD> Mallory Pearce, a resident of Tybee described the event as
RD> a “real invasion”. He continued “The housetop was rattling
RD> a tree branch fell in my yard and troops came rushing
RD> through my property with guns drawn … They were hiding in
RD> bushes with weapons. … I went outside and told the people
RD> to stop this, that it was tearing up my property. One of
RD> them handed me a claims sheet…” When Mr. Pearce told them
RD> they were violating the Constitution he was told to “get
RD> out of a restricted area”

Amazing! I thought it was impossible to violate the 3rd
amendment these days. Or maybe it is the 5th, with simple use of
property without compenstation.

Unless people were actually evacuated (hopefully volunteers
or soldiers) then it sounds like that was certainly NOT the
objective of the exercise. Rather it sounds more like securing
an area with US construction and such. Certainly hostages are
not held in private homes over a wide area.

Counterinsurgency training or gun search preparations
perhaps.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Life’s purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (140)
To: Jim Higgins 17 Sep 94 18:51:10
Subject: 1996 prediction

MG> 1996.
MG> Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.
MG> Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.

JH> More like Manson wins 57 to 43. 😉

I felt the truth would be too incredible.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Scruples taste best with garlic butter.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (146)
To: Jj Judkins 17 Sep 94 19:10:10
Subject: cadet Shannon

KP> I have no problem with women having ANY job, IF they meet
KP> the same, TRADITIONAL standards as men have! And do the
KP> SAME work!

JJ> T hat is the way I feel. If they can do the job, fine, but
JJ> absolutely no special treatment. Unfortunately women at
JJ> work will always have something available that men will
JJ> never have…Pregnacy Leave. To be fair, men should be
JJ> allowed the option to take off when their wives are
JJ> pregnant. The way it is couldn’t it be considered
JJ> discrimination?

When it comes to women in the military getting pregnant it
should be treated no different than a man shoothing himself in
the foot to avoid combat. It is a self inflicted wound to avoid
combat. It was disgusting to read of all the cowardly women
prior to the Gulf War making their weekly trips to the base
hospital for pregnancy tests.

Anyone turning up pregnant after August of 1990 should have
been court mashalled.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego. I am right.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
* Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (167)
To: Phillip Jones 18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!

MG> Thank you. I have heard a claim there are only 19
MG> pages of material that directly address crime in the bill
MG> and that does sound like a lot of reading for little
MG> benefit. However, do you have a phone number?

PJ> 803-554-2498

Appreciated.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (168)
To: All 18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Invading Haiti

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

Invading Haiti
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America. He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
We were left with the burning question. Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic? I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection. I was of course not disappointed. He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave. Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton’s track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises. It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them. Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans. Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace. Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II. If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet. But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky. When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
This boy is for real? This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
Enough. All the fish in the barrel are dead. I used an
assault weapon.
This was the most “please like me” speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life. If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
I will note by its absense any reference to “I” have
decided, “I” have directed, “I” have done anything. It is
obvious “I” did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome. He could not even deliver “your
time is up” with a “make my day” or “I’ll be back” conviction.
A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a “please like me” speech. The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity. There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation. Somber? Decisive? Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid. Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse. We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian. I do not explain ’em. I
only report ’em. We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives. And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

* * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

—
* SPEED 1.30 >01< * Barney Must Die!

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (169)
To: Scott Summers 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Welfare and the Cold

MG> No one is required to accept charity. It is completely
MG> voluntary. They may seek out other means such as begging on the
MG> streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.

SS> I know this is probably a radical thought…. but they
SS> might even have to resort to finding jobs.

That idea never crossed my mind.

SS> Do you want to argue that our military has *not* been
SS> shafted over the years? We have a fed judge down here
SS> (William Wayne Justice) who ruled that the prison overflow
SS> can’t be temporarly housed in tents because that would be ”
SS> inhumane”.

MG> What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in
MG> a single family dwelling where they want to live and with
MG> food and utilities all in the most expensive form it can be
MG> procured.

MG> Where did this burden come from?

SS> The Great Society?

Bleeding heart liberals started it. Those who jumped to
feed off the public trough providing the services work to
perpetuate it. It is unpleasant to say the least.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro: Hope over experience.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: 3/3re:Mt.Carmel

JJ> Bad is just a little mild. Most people I know considered him EVIL..

DN> DV> The gov’t knew those children were in there, but yet they
DN> DV> fired indescriminately without acquiring a target.
JJ> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JJ> Did not intelligence already confirm that the children were
JJ> bunkered in the hard sites, or what passed for bunkers in
JJ> the compound?

No. If you heard the government make that claim then they
may or may not have had intelligence to that effect but it was
wrong.

DN> Now that’s interesting. Didn’t they try and use gas in the
DN> final assault? The gov’t did that, too. Thanks for
DN> mentioning that.

JJ> It seems that people are forgetting that when Koresh began
JJ> arming his cult that he was stepping over a line. This man
JJ> was not collecting hunting weapons. This guy was going to
JJ> resist the government or he would have never had those
JJ> weapons.

There is ZERO evidence of that. There is only the
government claim of it. There is plentiful evidence nearly
everything the government has said about the situation was a lie
starting with the perjured warrant.

DV> “Fanaticism ?” Upon what do you base your allegation ?

JJ> This person was a threat to the people and the government.
JJ> If he hadn’t been stopped then it would have ended up with
JJ> a lot more people getting hurt.. Yes he was a fanatic, and
JJ> a very dangerous one.

Again, that is only a government claim with no evidence
whatsoever to support it. And the sheriff and the neighbors tell
exactly the opposite story. They found absolutely no problem and
no reason for concern and considered them good neighbors.

It would be good for you to take a look at the actual
evidence rather than buying into the propaganda demonization of
Koresh that was released by the government. The government’s
actions in the case were criminal. All the senior personnel
involved were given either early retirement or permanent
reassignment to where they can not be involved in such an
operation again.

I do not think that is enough. Perjury and murder should
not get off so easily.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: cadet Shannon

KP> cling to maintain that Mz. Faulkner be held to a physical standard
KP> only 40% of that of the male cadets, just as women are in the U.S.
KP> military and military academies. FOURTY PERCENT!

JJ> I wonder, does this mean that in a combat situation a
JJ> female pilot would be expected kill 40 percent of a enemy
JJ> fighter, 40 percent of a tank? Would a infantry woman be
JJ> only expected to kill 40 percent of an enemy soldier?

As a tank driver she would be expected to hold her water 2.5
times longer — unless she is turned on by self catherization.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Purple Pedophile must die!

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: David Duckworth 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: cats and learned behavior

DD> ‘Only lately have we begun embarking upon a fourth way of
DD> looking at the world and our place in it. A new view of
DD> Life.’
DD>
DD> ‘If we evolved, one must ask, are we then not like other
DD> mammals in many ways? Ways we can learn from? And where
DD> we differ, should that not also teach us?’
DD>
DD> ‘Murder, rape, the most tragic forms of mental
DD> illnesses-all of these we are now finding among the animals
DD> as well as ourselves. Brainpower only exaggerates the
DD> horror of these dyfunctions in us. It is not the root
DD> cause. The cause if the darkness in which we have lived.
DD> It is ignorance.’

Brin never did bother knowing any real science before
writing. This only demonstrates it.

DD> ‘But there is one more reason to protect other species.
DD> Perhaps we are the first to talk and think and build and
DD> aspire, but we may not be the last. Others may follow us
DD> in this adventure.’

If we have 20 million years to wait or unless we do it for
them in about 100 years.

DD> ‘Someday we may be judged on just how well we served, when
DD> alone we were Earth’s caretakers.’

Only in the most primitive form of SciFi is there anything
like that idea.

DD> From: ‘The Uplift War’ POSTSCRIPT AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
DD> Author: David Brin

And Brin does suck as an SF writer. That is why he writes
SciFi.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: Ian Lin 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Dean Musholtz

DN> Consider that Clinton never smoked cigarettes. Consider also that as

IL> Consider that he does smoke cigars.

But, as with marijuana, he doesn’t inhale.

DN> propaganda movie ‘Reefer Madness’ and I’ve seen it on ‘Dragnet.’

IL> You’ve seen it on Dragnet? And this is your substantial
IL> evidence, a movie?! Dean, you really are a Mush-brain.

You are learning about Deano very quickly. No matter what
you try or say or do, he will not improve. When in a corner he
will vanish for a week or two then come back and start from the
beginning as though nothing had happened. Or is it Meriweather
who does that?

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (174)
To: Ian Lin 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Stupid Feds

TT> The EPA is a runaway beer wagon. I say abolish the EPA.

PW> I agree and would add many other agencies that rip us off and/or
PW> take our freedoms. Don’t forget to vote in November Tom.

IL> I think the EPA should be revised, not abolished. Ignoring
IL> the environment is deadly. That’s what the EPA is here to
IL> prevent. Whether or not they’re doing the job right is
IL> another question but to remove the agency is a mistake.

How about if we simply ship it to Canada so you can get the
benefits of a turnkey EPA operation.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (175)
To: Ian Lin 18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Wacko in Waco

GR> Nobody knocked on the door of the Koresh compound and yelled, “Drop
GR> your Bibles, and come out with your hands up”.

JH> And nobody ever served the warrant either.

IL> Now why isn’t the media jumping up and down over THAT?

The first and last media type who asked a hard question at a
press briefing during the standoff was immediately arrested.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego. I am right.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (176)
To: Phillip Jones 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!

PJ> 803-554-2498

Appreciated.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (177)
To: All 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Invading Haiti

* Carbon Copy:
* Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

Invading Haiti
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

* * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

—
* SPEED 1.30 >01< * Barney Must Die!

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: Scott Summers 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Welfare and the Cold

MG> No one is required to accept charity. It is completely
MG> voluntary. They may seek out other means such as begging on the
MG> streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.

SS> I know this is probably a radical thought…. but they
SS> might even have to resort to finding jobs.

That idea never crossed my mind.

MG> What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in
MG> a single family dwelling where they want to live and with
MG> food and utilities all in the most expensive form it can be
MG> procured.

MG> Where did this burden come from?

SS> The Great Society?

Bleeding heart liberals started it. Those who jumped to
feed off the public trough providing the services work to
perpetuate it. It is unpleasant to say the least.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro: Hope over experience.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (179)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: 3/3re:Mt.Carmel

JJ> Bad is just a little mild. Most people I know considered him EVIL..

DN> DV> The gov’t knew those children were in there, but yet they
DN> DV> fired indescriminately without acquiring a target.
JJ> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JJ> Did not intelligence already confirm that the children were
JJ> bunkered in the hard sites, or what passed for bunkers in
JJ> the compound?

No. If you heard the government make that claim then they
may or may not have had intelligence to that effect but it was
wrong.

DN> Now that’s interesting. Didn’t they try and use gas in the
DN> final assault? The gov’t did that, too. Thanks for
DN> mentioning that.

DV> “Fanaticism ?” Upon what do you base your allegation ?

I do not think that is enough. Perjury and murder should
not get off so easily.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (180)
To: Jj Judkins 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: cadet Shannon

KP> cling to maintain that Mz. Faulkner be held to a physical standard
KP> only 40% of that of the male cadets, just as women are in the U.S.
KP> military and military academies. FOURTY PERCENT!

As a tank driver she would be expected to hold her water 2.5
times longer — unless she is turned on by self catherization.

— SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Purple Pedophile must die!

— GrayQwkMail 2.1
* Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2

®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ®юЇ

From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (181)
To: David Duckworth 18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: cats and learned behavior