Documents

Giwer, controv 7-1994

RC> MG> RC> HIV+ does not guarantee AIDS.
RC> MG>
RC> MG> Since when?

RC> Since ever, Matt.

RC> There are people who have been known to be HIV+ for longer
RC> than the expected incubation period who still show no
RC> symptoms.

All seven of them. That makes my statement correct to about
99.9999 points.

RC> There are cases of accquired immune deficiency with no HIV
RC> detected.

Only under the most recent definition. Your claim is what I
predicted would happen when the definition of AIDS was changed.

RC> Many people want to assume that HIV is some super virus.
RC> That because it attacks the immune system there is no way
RC> for the body to fight it off.
RC>
RC> It is a *dangerous* virus, that is clear. But there is no
RC> logic whatsoever is making an assumption that it can not be
RC> defeated by the body’s natural defenses.

By seven people. Are you in a gambling mood?

RC> There is no reason to assume that any of the people who are
RC> HIV+ and show no symptoms *must* develop AIDS. They are
RC> definitely a high risk group, but it stops there.

You are kidding yourself.

®®юю R_9407 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940701 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (56)
To: Rick Chadderdon 28 Jun 94 18:05:10
Subject: Normal Queers

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (57)
To: Mark Phillips 28 Jun 94 18:08:10
Subject: Verbal abuse

MP> MG> It would appear only reasonable in law to remove the
MP> MG> presumption of victim status from the woman. It should be
MP> MG> recognized that women can just as easily be the cause of
MP> MG> the abuse they receive. Or shall it continued to be
MP> MG> presumed that no man should ever snap under vicious verbal
MP> MG> abuse every waking moment while knowing there will be no
MP> MG> end until the woman gets the victim status she wants?

MP> Figures you would come up with something this stupid.

You are the illiterate are you not?

MP> Because a woman may be verbal, that gives the man a right
MP> to beat her. Feel sorry for your wife Matt, she must look
MP> like shit, but thats ok she had it coming hey Matt….

And you are one of those with the opinion of themselves that
they could stand verbal abuse every waking moment for all of
their life with breaking.

MP> …Matt Giwer, Americas #1 idiot!

May you marry a woman to test your resolve.

FWIW: I have had a response from a woman defending a
woman’s god given right to nag a man to death. You appear to
need a woman like that.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (113)
To: All 28 Jun 94 00:39:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Burn Him!
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <6/27>
Alternate titles for this article were “Heresy!” and “31
Million Missing, 12 Million Dead.” This is could also be called
“The Confessions of a Heretic.” What did I do?
For decades I had been listening to the stories of the
Holocaust. I believed them. I had faith. Certainly there was
no question of the 12 million or so who died in concentration
camps and there still is no question of it.
Then I found a correspondent who was in investigator for the
War Crimes Courts after the war. His unit accounted for four
executions, two life imprisonments, and a total of 65 years for
four others. He kept his original notes. His name is in the
Hall of the Righteous in Israel.
He did not mention his name being in the Hall of the
Righteous. I uncovered that while checking out his credentials.
He may be mistaken but he is certainly the last person to lie and
from what he did say it is difficult to imagine how he could
exaggerate and not be a screenwriter for Steven Spielberg.
He has also written and lectured on the subject of the
Holocaust. He was telling me nothing new. Nothing he had not
said for years.
He pointed out that no one was charged with gassing at
Nuremberg and thus obviously no one was convicted of gassing
anyone. He pointed out the Rudolph Hoess, the notorious
Commandant of Auschwitz was never arrested but, after he
surrendered, was kept under house surveillance. He was never
charged at Nuremberg.
After his testimony against his superiors at Nuremberg he
was arrested and turned over to the Russians at the request of
General Rudenko and charged with gassing Russian citizens. After
a two day trial he was acquitted of those charges for failure of
the prosecution to produce evidence there was any gassing. He
was later tried on charges of crimes against the Russian people
and hung.
This was the key to the issue. Here was a man purported to
have written a book between the time of his surrender in 1946 and
his execution in 1947. That book, Commandant of Auschwitz,
amounts to a full confession of gassing. And yet the Russians
acquitted him of that charge for lack of evidence.
Not even asking when he had time to write this book why
would not such a confession lead to a conviction on exactly those
charges? It is obvious it did not exist at the time and what has
been published is a forgery.
My correspondent went further. He heard the first report of
gas chambers. It was brought in by a fellow investigator and
the team immediately flew to a camp outside of Munich to examine
the evidence.
The people reporting the gassing were asked to identify the
building where it occurred. They identified four buildings with
no certainty. None of the four were found suitable for gassing
and one of them was the office of the commandant of the camp. As
he said, they could find no credible evidence of any gas
chambers.
He pointed out there were attempts to follow up the charges
as a group of Russian officers had reported they found gas
chambers at Auschwitz. However, the Russians refused access to
Auschwitz-Birkenau. And it is noted their own court had thrown
out these reports in the Hoess trial. Thus the evidence from
Auschwitz is not credible.
It turns out that Lenin ordered the construction of a gas
chamber at Auschwitz some years later. Then and only then were
people permitted to view what Lenin ordered to be built. It is
interesting to examine what he ordered constructed.
This is the famous room, the first gas chamber described in
Kommandant of Auschwitz. In the book it was a spontaneous
experiment carried out hardly a month after the infamous Wannasee
Conference is supposed to have ordered the method used. At this
point in my reconsideration of events I was reviewing some
material from people who were already skeptics of gassing.
It turns out this was a rather small room and yet the
description is of at least 700 people being stuffed into it.
This works out to about three people per square foot. And yet
the description of events holds that Nazis in gas masks walked
freely through the room pouring out Zyklon-B pellets. It also
holds the room was prepared by covering glass windows with dirt
— some glass.
On cursory inspection the story is incredible. Yet this is
the story. And if one asks for better evidence? This is where
the heresy comes in.
I have asked for evidence. I have presented all of the
above and more. The response I have received is, “You are
denying the Holocaust.”
I have been asked how people died and I respond they were
worked to death in conditions of no sanitation and no medication
and on starvation level food. That satisfies no one. I have
been told by implication that a quick death by gassing is worse
than a slow death from disease and starvation.
I have have dozens of people literally refuse to respond to
my requests because they know the truth. When I ask them why
they will not post the evidence of that truth they refuse to
respond.
Have I denied the Holocaust in anything of the above? Yet
almost every response I have received has been a claim that I
have denied there was any massive death of Jews regardless of the
stipulation I have made up front.
This is an interesting matter of mass psychology. If I were
in the Dark Ages and professed to be a Christian and questioned
the Trinity the cry would be “Heretic” and the well done stake
would not be far behind. In the 20th century I can profess to
believe in the deaths of tens of millions but if I question one
particular means of death the claim is that I have denied all of
the deaths.
Deny the Trinity and deny Christianity.
There is no difference.
Now does anyone fail to understand the fervor of Torquemada
or the entire Inquisition? Any slightest deviation from accepted
dogma, any slightest questioning of one small aspect of dogma is
considered the same as denying EVERYTHING.
Watch the responses to this article if you think there is a
difference. The responses will give you a concrete example of
the Inquisitional mentality as it exists today.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547

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+++ююююю r_940702 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (214)
To: Todd Henson 29 Jun 94 15:34:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

TH> The water came from a great canopy of water, just high
TH> enough in the atmosphere and of the right volume to stay
TH> where it was.

Flatly impossible. Laws of gravity, orbital mechanics and
all that.

Ya know, the part in the Bible where it says
TH> it rained for 40 days and nights. Another Bible passage
TH> also says that the fountains of the deep opened up. There
TH> was a vast underground “shell” of water, laying underneath
TH> the Earth’s crust. Great geologic pressure caused the water
TH> to force upward through the crust, just like lava, and rush
TH> outwards with great ferocity.

Equally impossible as as you need six miles of water.

This is what really caused or
TH> at least partly caused the Mid-ocean ridges,

Bullshit.

and either
TH> wholly or partly caused or played a part in continental
TH> separation.

Which has taken 100 million years.

This would have theoretically caused a layer of
TH> mud to pretty much cover most of the Earth, if not all.

Not theory, your fantasy.

TH> EVIDENCE has been found of this layer.

Bullshit. Post your source.

Archaeological digs
TH> have confirmed a layer such as this, with traces of
TH> civilation continuing up through the layers of rock, then
TH> the 10 feet thick layer separating the traces from the
TH> civilation that was raised after the Flood. That is proof!

You are lying. You are making it up as you go along.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: William Childress 29 Jun 94 15:41:10
Subject: Christ Had Risen? 1/2

WC> When scientists make it perfectly clear that their work
WC> contradicts or invalidates the biblical position, then they have
WC> deceived themselves. The following text (AUTHOR UNKNOWN) pretty much
WC> sums up my sentiments on this matter:

Unfortunately you can not name the author as he is a lying
idiot and you are repeating his garbage.

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+++ююююю r_940703 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (97)
To: Scot Vertullo 30 Jun 94 23:26:10
Subject: Waco #8

SV> Do you have any friends left? You must’ve bored all them to
SV> death so you’re inflicting this on us. Give Waco a break
SV> and come up for some air.
SV>
SV> You must not confuse singleness-of-purpose with a
SV> one-track-mind.

The is an N key in the middle of your BM. Stick your thumb
there regularly.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (98)
To: Scot Vertullo 30 Jun 94 23:28:10
Subject: Waco travesty

SV> > My advice to those who don’t want a similar incident to
SV> > happen to them is
SV> >
SV> > 1) when federal agents come onto their property, don’t
SV> > fire at them and
SV> >
SV> > 2) when you are ordered to surrender by the law, it’s best
SV> > to surrender.

SV> To be honest with you, I was surprised that they let it go
SV> on as long as it did. They resisted arrest.

You know that is a lie. Why do you continue to post it?
You know there was no arrest warrant. Why do you continue to
pretend there was? You know they were not required to surrender.
Why do you pretend they were?

Unfortunately,
SV> that point seems to be lost on the idiots that believe the
SV> Wacko Wacoes were *entirely* innocent and those “nasty”
SV> BATF agents were entirely guilty.

No one has said they were entirely innocent. That is your
fantasy. The point is their possible guilt is not relevant to
the way they were treated. You don’t seem to be able to
comprehend that.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (103)
To: Chris Boyd 1 Jul 94 00:58:10
Subject: Aids Stats

CB> LG> Of course your point is that all of this is just hearsy and
CB> LG> Aids is in no way a queer disease. We know. We have heard
CB> LG> you say it, ad nauseaum.

CB> My point is AIDS is a problem for everyone.

The data on who is getting the disease do not bear that out.

Homosexuals primarily with IV drug users coming up a good
second. The former case have known their behavior causes the
problem since 1984. The latter case are hardly worth saving
anyway.

Both groups have a severely limited life expectancy. Give
them their pain killers and send them home. There is no cure.
There is no indication that any of the treatments, no matter how
expensive prolong life more than six months.

It is a waste of time and money.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (247)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 1 Jul 94 16:25:10
Subject: Inquistion mentalityяяяяя

BS> > It turns out that Lenin ordered the construction of a
BS> > gas chamber at Auschwitz some years later. Then and only
BS> > then were people permitted to view what Lenin ordered to be
BS> > built. It is interesting to examine what he ordered
BS> > constructed.

BS> I didn’t read the whole of this, but the above caught my eye.

BS> What kind of amateur kook originated this?

BS> Lenin died in 1924.

It was an error on my part. I have no one around here to
proofread what I write.

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+++ююююю r_940705 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (86)
To: Ann Ross 2 Jul 94 17:10:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Billяяяяя

AR> MG> You are doing a very poor Linda Thompson imitation.

AR> HAHAHAHAHAHA. Nope, YOU TRIED TO GET THERE BEFORE
AR> HER, and you are getting if from BOTH SIDES now.
AR> Blert is accusing you of being on the federal
AR> payroll for your sides’-switch. HAHAHAHHAHAHA we
AR> won’t know WHO to blame if you have to disappear
AR> now. Luv this!

You both should try reading what I write.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (87)
To: Ann Ross 2 Jul 94 17:11:10
Subject: Judas Matty inna Panic

AR> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you’re sounding panicy, Matty.
AR> My! You don’t seem to like the company you
AR> solicited! I can just see you with a federal
AR> number card under your chin. Remember to smile for
AR> the jail camera. Gee, is it true that L. Thompson
AR> as been pushed off Fido? Certain careful wisdom in
AR> that one. Better slither away FASTER than you are,
AR> because those two idiots are not going to be and
AR> will take you down with them. So deserved that it
AR> is.

I have never solicited Linda Thompson nor her ideas. IF you
had ever taken the time to read our exchanges you would know
that. Of course, you probably did and prefer to post lies.

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+++ююююю r_940705 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (86)
To: Ann Ross 2 Jul 94 17:10:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Billяяяяя

AR> MG> You are doing a very poor Linda Thompson imitation.

You both should try reading what I write.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (87)
To: Ann Ross 2 Jul 94 17:11:10
Subject: Judas Matty inna Panic

I have never solicited Linda Thompson nor her ideas. IF you
had ever taken the time to read our exchanges you would know
that. Of course, you probably did and prefer to post lies.

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+++ююююю r_940708 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (17)
To: Tim Sitzler 3 Jul 94 23:30:10
Subject: Waco travesty

TS> TJ> ??? Mebbe you kin xplain why the U.S. Attorney ain’t
TS> TJ> pressed no charges aginst them ‘lawbreakers.’ It cain’t bin
TS> TJ> cause ***YOU’SE*** *D*E*A*D* **WRONG**, kin it?

TS> Tom, I’ve read a lot of what you type, and I have one question.

TS> What the hell kind of dialect is that you speak?

No one writes in dialect.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (18)
To: Mike Duerksen 3 Jul 94 23:36:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

MD> RC>–>Does it make sense to you that life could be what it is
MD> RC>–>today if almost all air breathing life on the planet was
MD> RC>–>wiped out? (Except for the logistically impossible “Two of
MD> RC>–>each.”)

MD> Point one: Noah and his wife.
MD> Ham and his wife.
MD> Shem and his wife.
MD> Japheth and his wife.

MD> That’s eight humans, and enough time aboard the ark for
MD> the conception and delivery of 4 more, assuming Noah and
MD> wife were still viable, and no twins were born.

Not a large enough gene pool for a viable species.

MD> Point two: Statistics of gestation among small livestock in
MD> today’s environment notwithstanding, have you ever raised
MD> any small livestock yourself. A reasonable animal
MD> husbandman (read farmer) (well alright, animal
MD> husbandperson) (OK OK animal spouse person) can keep nearly
MD> any small livestock viable, and producing, through nearly
MD> any kind of difficulty.

Of fifty million species?

MD> Yes, I do know about cross-breeding, but how many basic
MD> animal types does it take to create all the various types
MD> we know today by cross breeding.

Exactly as many as there are species.

And animals do THAT all by
MD> themselves, without any help from us. Large livestock DO
MD> present more difficulties when it comes to delivery, but
MD> God IS able.

Another miracle invoked to save the fable of a flood in 2250
BC.

See my earlier comments on faith, and quit
MD> asking US for proof. If you want God to cease to exist, you
MD> can’t WISH him away. You’ll have to PROVE him away.

There is no need for that. There is no evidence of the
existence of any god. Those who make the claim bear the burden
of proof.

MD> I’ve not seen any of these threads claim that God doesn’t
MD> exist, for which I’m thankful.

That is because there are none. What there are are threads
with fundies refusing to prove their claim that a god exists.

But if the argument is
MD> merely that God did not do what God claimed he did, in the
MD> Bible, then what good is God. Who would want to waste time
MD> worshipping a liar? Not me, I have better things to do.

God did not write the bible. Whatever god you are talking
about made no such claim nor is the there any claim in the bible
to it being the word of god. Sorry, you made that up.

MD> If the argument underlying all this is that God doesn’t
MD> exist, then I’m outta here, cause Proverbs says “The fool
MD> hath said in his heart there is no God”, and I ain’t got
MD> time to waste talking to fools.

And you do not have the ability to prove a god exists so you
will declare victory and run away.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (19)
To: Mike Duerksen 3 Jul 94 23:42:10
Subject: Bible Lies? NOT!!!!

MD> EH>–> (how many of you know there was more than one in the
MD> EH>–> Bible?)

MD> Partings of Seas, specifically, or of bodies of water in
MD> general. Unless I missed something, only one sea was
MD> parted, but the Jordan river was also parted. So, one sea,
MD> multiple bodies of water.

And 144,000 Hebrews and their animals and their slaves all
walked across the muddy bottom before horse drawn chariots could
reach them. Give me a break.

MD> EH>–> say this, and you/many may refute it. The witnessing of the
MD> EH>–> indwelling Holy Spirit bears all the proof I need. Those
MD> EH>–> who do not know Christ as their Savior and Lord, (and
MD> EH>–> therefore do not have the Holy Spirit), cannot
MD> EH>–> understand/fathom this.

MD> As the Bible points out, the “natural man” (ie, unsaved,
MD> not having the “paraclete” or one called alongside, the
MD> indwelling spirit) cannot understand the things of the
MD> Spirit, because he is natural.

Please give a biblical quotation, that is, post it, for a
discussion of “natural” man. I do expect to see the natural
used.

I stand with you, Ed, on the
MD> understanding wrought by the Holy Spirit. I doubt that any
MD> successful refutation will occur . . .

You need to prove it first. You have made the claim. You
bear the burden of proof.

No, I KNOW that none
MD> will occur, because to do so, man would have to out think
MD> an infinite God.

Provide a quote from the bible demonstrating your god is
infinite? I can easily show your god is not. All the bible
evidence is on my side to show your god isn’t all that much.

After all he did not know what was happening in Sodom and
had to go there and find out for himself and then your god is
outwitted by Lot and gets him to change his mind.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (20)
To: Mike Duerksen 3 Jul 94 23:51:10
Subject: Evidence of Discrimiяяяяя

MD> This MAY have been intended as humor, but, hey, why pass up
MD> the opportunity. Of course there are other kinds, you
MD> idiot. But at least, from this comment, I now know why I’ve
MD> been getting dirty looks for so long. Shoot, there must be
MD> at least 250,000 of us, at least, in the US, who DON’T EVER
MD> HANDLE SNAKES, cause they have nothing to do with our
MD> Fundamentalism. A Fundamentalist is simply someone who
MD> believes that ALL of the Bible is true,

The Bible makes no such claim.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (21)
To: Linda Terrell 4 Jul 94 00:04:10
Subject: Traitor (1)

LT> MS> we had somebody who “loathes” the military,

LT> The word is “loathED” That was 25 years ago. I
LT> “loathed” the military then too. Today I respect [most] of
LT> it and what it does. And I *never* disrespected Veterans.

University College
Oxford, England
December 3, 1969

Dear Col. Holmes,

a case where he really couldn’t, and stating that I couldn’t do the
ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.

…

And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have
been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am
writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you
to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find
themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to
~~~~~~~~
which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the
best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what
is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion
is likely to be illegal.

Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say.
There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to
Col. Jones for me.

Merry Christmas.

Sincerely,

Bill Clinton

If you want the complete letter you will see he is clearly
explaining why his is backing out of his ROTC agreement and
includes himself in the loathing category.

LT> MS> and who won’t permit the men charged with the leadership
LT> MS> of our military to wear their uniforms when on business at
LT> MS> the Whitehouse

LT> I believe that is a myth.

You are correct. That was true but it is no longer true.
The latest is that he ordered the uniformed people who had been
invited to a White House reception to serve the hor d’vours.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (67)
To: Jian Shan 1 Jul 94 18:29:10
Subject: AIDS STATS

JS> MG> Save that in most cases it was contracted with behavior
JS> MG> that was known to spread the disease. And if he is
JS> MG> suffering he has no more sympathy that a skydiver with a
JS> MG> broken back. That does not justify a billion dollars on
JS> MG> broken back research.

JS> The justification is the potential of this disease to
JS> explode to the width and variety that the cold virus has
JS> grown.

The virus has shown no such potential. It is not clear it
has that potential save in the minds of AIDS activists.

The justification is that people are suffering,
JS> even though you don’t give a damn about the pain that
JS> others are experiencing.

The only thing that can alleviate their suffering in
anti-biotics and pain killers. There is no hope.

JS> MG> The person is going to die as a direct result of the HIV+
JS> MG> status unless a speeding truck gets him first. Give them
JS> MG> all the pain killers they need and send them home. There
JS> MG> is no treatment that will do any good. They are the
JS> MG> walking dead.

JS> So, if someone beats the crap out of you because of the
JS> stupidity and hatred that you post all the time, then
JS> there is nobody to blame but yourself. And I, for one,
JS> won’t do a thing to be of help to you.

They can try but they are much more likely to die for it
than I am to be harmed.

Secondly, if a person has a gripe with another about
contracting the disease the person to take it out on is the
person who gave it to them.

JS> You are only showing yourself to be the cold hearted, son
JS> of a bitch that you always show yourself to be.

I know you do not like to read the facts. You prefer a
sugar coated world with hope. Sorry, you have none.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (68)
To: Rick Chadderdon 1 Jul 94 18:33:10
Subject: Normal Queers

RC> MG> RC> There are people who have been known to be HIV+ for longer
RC> MG> RC> than the expected incubation period who still show no
RC> MG> RC> symptoms.

RC> MG> All seven of them. That makes my statement correct to
RC> MG> about 99.9999 points.

RC> Seven? Matt, why would you make up numbers? Why not say, “I
RC> think that must be unusual,” or some statement of opinion
RC> when you don’t know the facts?

Though I think the seven are all legendary, I have seen the
number seven used in a CDC MMWR. That is the largest number I
will consider using without solid evidence for a larger number.

RC> MG> Only under the most recent definition. Your claim is
RC> MG> what I predicted would happen when the definition of AIDS
RC> MG> was changed.

RC> Well, if you define AIDS as an accquired immune deficiency
RC> caused by HIV, then there is obviously no way around that.
RC> The problem is, it’s never been *medically* defined that
RC> way.

Then you have no idea what the working definitions have
been.

Maybe some laymen might have stuck that definition on
RC> the disease. Again, if you have sources to the contrary,
RC> I’d love to see them.

I would suggest you take a look at the official definitions
the CDC has used over the years. The first was the best, two are
more ARC diseases. I would suggest you look into the literature
a bit further.

RC> MG> By seven people. Are you in a gambling mood?

RC> Still would like to see your source.

CDC.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (151)
To: Matthew Russotto 4 Jul 94 16:01:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality

MR> Hess died in Spandau– in fact, he was the last resident of
MR> Spandau. He was not hung.

Rudolph Hess, Hitler’s secretary who parachuted into
England, died in Spandau. Rudolph Hoess, commandant of Aushwitz,
was hung by the Russians.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (154)
To: Jennifer Lewis 4 Jul 94 16:38:10
Subject: did you vote for cliяяяяя

JL> Why was the Brady Bill bad? I heard on the local news that
JL> here in Ohio they kept ~247 people who shouldn’t have guns
JL> from getting them. ANd that was after only 6 months of the
JL> law. Imagine what a whole year and many years to come will
JL> have. In regards to the health care issue, no matter what
JL> anyone tells me, something is better than nothing, which is
JL> what alot of people, millions in fact, are living with
JL> right now.

You heard it from whom? Did it say how many people would
have been rejected without it? If not, why did they leave out
that information? Why are the proponents of an even more
draconian version of it trying to take credit for much of what
would have happened without it?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (164)
To: Todd Henson 4 Jul 94 22:11:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

TH> What, are you one of those idiots who think like
TH> “spontaneously arose” by itself?

I have no idea what happened. As it is here and there is no
evidence of any god I would take the simplest presumption that it
did arise spontaneously.

Evolution is not a
TH> science, it’s a philosophy.

I agree, you are either ignorant of evolution or you are a
fundie liar, who lies for his imagined god.

I like how these pea-brains
TH> think that anything God does on Earth is limited by yer
TH> “laws of gravity” and the like.

There is no evidence your god exists save he creates
annoying, ignorant liars such as yourself.

Ya don’t have to quote
TH> science to a scientist bud.

You are obviously not a scientist making another lie from
you.

If you wish to make this claim perhaps you would post your
degree, university, year and related work experience so it can be
verified?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (165)
To: Edward Hudock 4 Jul 94 22:17:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

EH> MG>TH> The water came from a great canopy of water, just high
EH> >TH> enough in the atmosphere and of the right volume to stay
EH> >TH> where it was.

EH> MG> Flatly impossible. Laws of gravity, orbital mechanics
EH> MG> and all that.

EH> Apparently not. I do not claim it to be so, but
EH> apparently there are quite a few planets which have such a
EH> canopy. My souce is listed below.

Your source is a fraud and a lie foisted upon the country by
gullible fundies. They were hoaxed by an atheist who made it all
up.

Also I did watch that show and there was no claim regarding
any other planet.

And a TV show does not replace a knowledge of the planets.

There are none, period.

EH>MG>Ya know, the part in the Bible where it says
EH> >TH> it rained for 40 days and nights. Another Bible passage
EH> >TH> also says that the fountains of the deep opened up. There
EH> >TH> was a vast underground “shell” of water, laying underneath
EH> >TH> the Earth’s crust. Great geologic pressure caused the water
EH> >TH> to force upward through the crust, just like lava, and rush
EH> >TH> outwards with great ferocity.

EH> MG> Equally impossible as as you need six miles of water.

EH> Not impossible. My source is listed below.

You source is a much a liar as you are.

EH> MG>This is what really caused or
EH> >TH> at least partly caused the Mid-ocean ridges,

EH> MG> Bullshit.

EH> Heheheh…oh ye of little faith! 🙂 See below…

Your source did not mention mid-ocean ridges either. You
are lying again.

EH> MG>TH> EVIDENCE has been found of this layer.
EH> MG> Bullshit. Post your source.

EH> I’ll post a source…see below…

EH> The source: On Channel 2, (I belive it was this past
EH> winter), The Incredible Discovery of Noah’s Ark, copyright
EH> 1992 by SUN – PK Productions, Inc.. Would you like to see
EH> it yourself, and see the people who say it was so? Call
EH> 1-800-323-1000. It’s $29.95 plus shipping and handling. I
EH> saw the show. I was impressed. Please note, I don’t make
EH> any money off of this, nor am I affiliated with them…I
EH> just saw the show and took down the number.

And as such you pass on their lies and fraud. That makes
you no better than them. You are excusing your lies by citing
liars.

That does not excuse you.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (166)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 4 Jul 94 22:22:10
Subject: Inquistion mentalityяяяяя

BS> > It was an error on my part. I have no one around here
BS> > to proofread what I write.

BS> It looked to me like something you got somewhere else and
BS> transferred here.
BS>
BS> So you mean you originated it?

I checked my original source.

BS> Where did you get your information?

Which was from an interview with the current curator of the
museum. Do you not remember the explanation for not finding them
was that they were destroyed by the Nazis? Of course there was
never any evidence of this happening but that is the explanation.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (167)
To: Mark Phillips 4 Jul 94 22:27:10
Subject: Verbal abuse

MP> MG> And you are one of those with the opinion of
MP> MG> themselves that they could stand verbal abuse every waking
MP> MG> moment for all of their life with breaking.

MP> No I would not stand for it, but it also does not give me
MP> the right to hit someone.

I did not ask you about your rights. I asked about your
response.

MP> MG> FWIW: I have had a response from a woman defending a
MP> MG> woman’s god given right to nag a man to death. You appear
MP> MG> to need a woman like that.

MP> Well then she needs to get her head examined because they
MP> do not have the right to nag and nag, but the man does not
MP> have the right to hit because she does.

But there is no injunctive or legal relief from nagging
whereas there is from the natural response to it.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (188)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 5 Jul 94 02:29:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Arkяяяяяяя

BS> I heard a very interesting speculation about “Noah’s Ark”.
BS> Someone suggested the Byzantines might have built a fake
BS> ark on Mount Ararat in maybe the 9th century as a tourist
BS> trap. The first Disneyland.

Rather the opposite. There were several of them run by
monks who claimed them as pilgrimage sites. It was free
enterprise at it best.

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+++ююююю r_940709 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (177)
To: Jim Gillispie 6 Jul 94 01:13:10
Subject: Mt.Carmel info

JG> I can say with a degree of certainty that I have
JG> ingested or been in contact with more CS & CN gas
JG> than most folks. I have heavily investigated the
JG> effects, symptoms, and treatment of every type of
JG> chemical & biological agent in use today (the
JG> unclassified varieties anyway) by the US military,
JG> and we use them all, and have taught classes on
JG> this subject. I have been around them with
JG> automatic weapons and other sources of combustion
JG> (i.e. booby traps, flares, etc…), and have never,
JG> repeat NEVER, under any circumstances experienced
JG> or heard reports of the gas erupting into a fire
JG> comparable to that which occurred at Waco.

It is good to have an expert here. There have been reports
that CS should not be used in wooden structures. Can you confirm
or deny?

As CS is a solid what it the dispersal method? The
government has variously reported acetone and carbon monoxide.

Finally, have you ever used it with fire in a closed
environment? Here I am referring to the known use of kerosene
lamps at Waco.

JG> While a chemical grenade creates a high degree of
JG> temperature to release the CS/CN gas, the
JG> deployment method used by the (perhaps inept) BATF
JG> would not have done so. The BATF boobs deployed
JG> the gas through a tube (much like the barrel of a
JG> tank) in effect PUMPING the gas into the BD
JG> stronghold. By the time the gases escaped the
JG> barrel of this vehicle there would not have been
JG> enough heat to ignite flash paper.

Two days after the first the FBI (which was in charge not
the BATF) reported the additional use of some 300 “ferret”
grenades to insert the gas into the second floor. Are you
familiar with these?

And again you call it a gas but it is a solid. What is the
dispersal method?

JG> As for exposure to carbon-monoxide, HCL, cyanide,
JG> etc…, the effects of the CS/CN gasses deteriorate
JG> within minutes of removing the “victim” from
JG> exposure. I will condesend here for a minute: If a
JG> victim is exposed to CS gas for a sufficient length
JG> of time (VERY lengthy) without removal from the
JG> source, the victim MAY experience respiratory
JG> failure.

They were exposed for six hours. Is that long enough?

CS gas causes an involuntary constriction
JG> of the bronchial passages making breathing SEEM
JG> impossible to the victim, often times resulting in
JG> the victim PSYCHOLOGICALLY being unable to breath.
JG> Additionally, CS causes a burning sensation of all
JG> exposed skin areas to include the eyes and mucous
JG> membranes, some exposees may experience nausea,
JG> moisture acts as a catalyst in its activity as does
JG> body heat. Some persons are COMPLETELY IMMUNE to
JG> the effects of CS & CN, and tolerance to these
JG> agents CAN be built up with repeated exposure.
JG> Once removed from the gas ALL SYMPTOMS WILL
JG> DIMINISH within a few minutes.

What is the relevance of this?

JG> This is NOT Agent Orange or Nerve Gas folks. This
JG> is a form of tear gas basically, with a little more
JG> potent punch. The only persons in any serious
JG> danger of exposure to these chemical agents would
JG> be those with serious lung conditions.

There are other reports of much more serious effects on
children such as the induction of chemical pneumonia. Can you
comment?

JG> Something else was in the works there. What that
JG> was we may never know. But it was not fires caused
JG> by CS/CN gas.

That was not the claim in the first place. Rather that the
propellant acetone (if that is a correct claim by the government)
was the cause of the fire. There is also the suggestion that the
grenades were the cause of the fire. The burn by-product of
cyanide as a cause of death is also being suggested.

JG> jim gillispie USMC

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: Gary Steinweg 6 Jul 94 01:32:10
Subject: Waco travesty

GS> WM> I didn’t know we were “chasing Davidians.” I do know that
GS> WM> evidently some of them killed four federal agents who had
GS> WM> attempted to serve a search warrant on them. Then, after
GS> WM> barricading themselves in their compound for several weeks,
GS> WM> they torched the place and most of them died. And?

GS> You’ve apparently missed 1 year of discussion regarding
GS> this atrocity. Why get involved now?

He did not miss a thing. He claims to teach history in
Arkansas. And you wondered how they could be so low on the
educational ladder. Now you know. This person could
singlehandedly bring the state down from first to last.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (179)
To: Rick Chadderdon 6 Jul 94 01:37:10
Subject: Waco travesty

RC> Maybe even more annoying than nagging.

RC> Hey, Matt. Beat up this guy! 🙂

Sorry. I twitted him years ago. He is a terminal idiot.
And he teaches history and thinks Jefferson wrote the
Constitution. It appears to be some form of compulsive behavior
in need of serious psychiatric attention.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (198)
To: Tim Hutzler 6 Jul 94 16:32:10
Subject: Bible lies?

TH> -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Todd Henson <=-

TH> TH> The water came from a great canopy of water, just high
TH> TH> enough in the atmosphere and of the right volume to stay
TH> TH> where it was.

TH> MG> Flatly impossible. Laws of gravity, orbital mechanics and all that.

TH> Notice:

TH> Matt doesn’t bother to bring in any factual evidence in his
TH> refutation.

I am supposed to prove orbital mechanics and gravity? Water
was just sort of hanging up there?

TH> TH> There was a vast underground “shell” of water, laying
TH> TH> underneath the Earth’s crust. Great geologic pressure
TH> TH> caused the water to force upward through the crust, just
TH> TH> like lava, and rush outwards with great ferocity.

TH> MG> Equally impossible as as you need six miles of water.

TH> Notice:

TH> Matt doesn’t bother to bring in any factual evidence in his
TH> refutation.

You are saying there is a hollow shell under the entire
earth six miles thick? Perhaps we should revise all the geology
texts.

TH> TH> This is what really caused or at least partly caused the
TH> TH> Mid-ocean ridges,

TH> MG> Bullshit.

TH> Don’t mind that: Matt’s just being himself.

And would you explain the connection with the mid-ocean
ridge?

TH> TH> This would have theoretically caused a layer of mud to
TH> TH> pretty much cover most of the Earth, if not all.

TH> MG> Not theory, your fantasy.

TH> No more fantasy than ‘punctuated equilibrium.’

You have seen the layer of mud for yourself?

TH> TH> EVIDENCE has been found of this layer.

TH> MG> Bullshit. Post your source.

TH> And, this from the person who never posts sources either.

I presume you can find this layer of mud?

TH> TH> Archaeological digs have confirmed a layer such as this,
TH> TH> with traces of civilation continuing up through the layers
TH> TH> of rock, then the 10 feet thick layer separating the traces
TH> TH> from the civilation that was raised after the Flood. That
TH> TH> is proof!

TH> MG> You are lying. You are making it up as you go along.

TH> Well, what did you expect?

TH> Matt’s a devout evolutionist. Devout evolutionists call all
TH> creationists liars, it’s a religious tenet for them. <g>

His story is a lie.

TH> Post the source, but don’t waste your time with devout
TH> evolutionists. Life is short, and there are more
TH> *open-minded* folks.

Continue to spread you lies. You will be challenged every
time.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (199)
To: Tim Hutzler 6 Jul 94 16:38:10
Subject: bible lies?

TH> There have been many events in human history that were
TH> considered impossible…

TH> Untill they happened!

Name them.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (201)
To: Ann Ross 6 Jul 94 19:45:10
Subject: Judas Matty inna Panяяяяя

AR> MG> I have never solicited Linda Thompson nor her ideas. IF
AR> MG> you had ever taken the time to read our exchanges you would
AR> MG> know that. Of course, you probably did and prefer to post
AR> MG> lies.

AR> Are you referring to some exchange posts WITH her?
AR> I had no idea that you had, nor where. Not here, I
AR> take it.

Civil Liberties.

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+++ююююю r_940711 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: Todd Henson 8 Jul 94 03:08:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

TH> Not much evidence that life evolved either.

There is every evidence life evolved. That is why creation
was discarded as an explanation almost a century before Darwin.
The only question at hand is Darwin’s explanation.

Like you said,
TH> you weren’t there. So that leaves you in a void, doesn’t
TH> it?

Not at all. The evidence is called fossils. The older the
fossil the more different. It is trivial to observe life
changed. The only issue was how.

TH> Not really knowing where life came from. Pretty sad.

That has noting to do with evolution as you know.

TH> Ignorance I mean. Seeing as how you DON’T know, how can you
TH> say there is no God who created life?

I have never said that. I have said there is no evidence
for the existence of any god nor does separate research suggest
there is a need to invoke a god to explain anything.

If ya don’t know, ya
TH> can’t say he’s not real.

Again, I never said that. I merely say, no evidence.

THat would be unscientific now
TH> wouldn’t it? Refuting something you can’t prove or
TH> disprove.

You should learn not to misrepresent my position.

Before you go quoting scientific principles, try
TH> to abide by them yerself. As far as proof, the Bible
TH> provides a good documentation on the issue, through the
TH> years.

Cite the documentation if you can find the time.

Stuff that is confirmed by discoveries, whereas yer
TH> evolutionary crap is simply an INTERPRETATION of a lot of
TH> bones.

Then you have no comprehension of the subject of evolution.
Remember, some ignorant tribesmen who were into genocide were
telling stories around the camp fire and came up with this over
who knows how many years.

READ Genesis 1 and 2 for a change. There is no observer.
The story is revealed to no one. If it started with some holy man
having a vision and the Lord telling him what he did that would
be different as would the view of the teller of the story. There
is no “teller” of the story, there is no viewer. It is nothing
but a story.

Going by the “scientific” way, more evidence would
TH> seem to be in favor of creationism, making it much more
TH> probable than evolution.

Then you have no idea what you are talking about and are
completely ignorant of science.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: Michael Shirley 8 Jul 94 03:26:10
Subject: Ultimatum (2)

MS> MG>MS> — * SLMR 2.1a * “Better to die on your feet than to live
MS> >MS> on your knees.”

MS> MG> I never expected to get out of this world alive.

MS> Nor do I. I suppose it’s just one of those things,
MS> but those who are in on the action at the beginning of a
MS> war seldom live to see it’s end. This is mostly because
MS> they are on the wrong end of the learning curve and it
MS> takes awhile for everybody to figure out the right way to
MS> conduct those operations that are necessary in order to win
MS> a conflict.

Breaks of the game. The learning curve has to start some
where. I expect to give it a good kick off on logistics and
supplies. They are not my specialties but I learned enough from
the people I was managing to do it. I may even be able to pass
on the rudiments of organization and chain of command.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: Phillip Jones 8 Jul 94 03:47:10
Subject: Bang Bang!

PJ> MH> Those with excessive fears go to great lengths to
PJ> MH> protect themselves from their erroneous, falsely
PJ> MH> perceived dangers. ie. Buy and arsenal to protect
PJ> MH> yourself from the false threat of home invasion.

PJ> MG> Arsenal? One man, one gun. Ever try to use two guns
PJ> MG> at one time?

PJ> MG> What is this idiocy of an arsenal?

PJ> Well, it seems that Jackie Bradbury, her brain addled by
PJ> exposure to the constant cyclones (or tornados, depends on
PJ> the humidity) has locked herself in the basement (or
PJ> cellar, depends on the latitude) with a cache of weapons
PJ> stolen from Jehova’s Witnesses who came to proselytize. I
PJ> think.

You do not know her in the least. In fact your
characterization borders upon libel.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (209)
To: Jackie Bradbury 9 Jul 94 02:05:10
Subject: Bang Bang!

JB> MG> What is this idiocy of an arsenal?

JB> Besides, I would not call two .22 semi-autos an “arsenal”,
JB> would you?

JB> Sheesh…

But more than ten guns, 9+ more than could possibly used at
one time are going to be real soon.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (210)
To: Tim Sitzler 9 Jul 94 02:06:10
Subject: Waco travesty

TS> TS> What the hell kind of dialect is that you speak?

TS> MG> No one writes in dialect.

TS> Right, dialect does refer only to speach.

TS> What do you call it when someone writes in this ‘odd’ manner?

Someone trying to give blacks a bad name.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (211)
To: All 9 Jul 94 03:54:10
Subject: OJ damn it!

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

I hate to do this and I am not taking sides. I do not
follow sports, period. I thought OJ was a basketball player
until this started.

However, the defense in its motion passed over one serious
point and made not one thing of it in summation that I think is
extremely interesting.

To wit. He started off making the point that in one hour OJ
is presumed to have disposed of blood soaked clothes and shoes so
effectively that they have not been found in less than one hour
and there he dropped it.

Let us take this one step further. He disposed of all of
his clothes and did NOT dispose of one glove. Further he parked
on the street just to increase the opportunity for people see him
go onto his property stark naked save for wearing one glove.

I have no opinion one way or the other in this matter.

I am posting this only to suggest one of the things the
defense may have up its sleeve.

(For anyone unfamiliar with this type of hearing if the
defense had proven his innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt it
would not have been relevant to the hearing. That is the way it
is.)

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (212)
To: Michael Harris 9 Jul 94 04:08:10
Subject: Bang Bang!

MH> RC> We’d need a definition of “arsenal” and “home invasion” to
MH> RC> proceed here. The traditional definitions do not allow me
MH> RC> to agree with you.

MH> An arsenal in this case would be the stockpiling of
MH> weopons to defend against a pathological threat. A
MH> non-exsistant threat.

Why would it matter? You can’t use more than one gun at
once. Consider the economic benefits of a person buying a
hundred weapons. It should be encouraged.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (213)
To: Linda Terrell 9 Jul 94 05:41:10
Subject: Hatchet-job

LT> FS> really true that both the feminist movement and the
LT> FS> Democrat Party are sliding down into oblivion? Is there
LT> FS> something that we should do to speed-up this cleansing?
LT> FS>
LT> FS> COMMENTS?

LT> The ONLY word we have that Clinton waved his wang at
LT> Jones is. . .Jones’. The original article has the Guard,
LT> Fergusson, saying that Jones left telling him that she was
LT> “available” to be Clinton’s girlfriend.

And the only word we had was Hill’s. What is the
difference? None obviously.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (233)
To: Bert Byfield 9 Jul 94 16:54:10
Subject: 00: Ultimatum

BB> MG> there armed to the teeth. Do you expect meek surrender to
BB> MG> arrest

BB> What ever gave you the idea that I was going there “armed
BB> to the teeth” ? You are giving way to wishful thinking
BB> again.

I have posted her call to show up armed. You said you were
going to show up. It was an obvious inference.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (234)
To: Bert Byfield 9 Jul 94 16:58:10
Subject: 10Th Ammendment Bills

BB> MG> BB> MG> So you are going up against troops and tanks
BB> MG> BB> with hand MG> weapons and you expect to accomplish
BB> MG> BB> something.

BB> Not hand weapons — flowers. It worked in 1968. And today
BB> the hippies own the educational system. See?

You intend to carry flowers while a part of an armed group
that is going to arrest the president and Congress. I fail to
see any comparison.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (235)
To: Phillip Robertson 9 Jul 94 17:01:10
Subject: bible lies?

PR> MG> TH> There have been many events in human history that were
PR> MG> TH> considered impossible…
PR> MG>
PR> MG> TH> Untill they happened!
PR> MG>
PR> MG> Name them.

PR> Walking on the moon.

I grew up expecting to have cities on the moon by now.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (236)
To: Edward Hudock 9 Jul 94 17:02:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

EH> While I appreciate your feedback, if I quote a source
EH> that may or may not be lying, and “I” do not KNOW they are
EH> lying, that does not make me a liar. Misinformed, perhaps,
EH> but not a liar. I don’t know nor claim to know everything
EH> so I go to other sources…which I gave you. You did not
EH> back up your statements discounting what was shown in the
EH> show…don’t you have any?

It would behoove you to learn your subject matter before you
post it as true.

EH> MG>EH> Apparently not. I do not claim it to be so, but
EH> MG>EH> apparently there are quite a few planets which have such a
EH> MG>EH> canopy. My souce is listed below.

EH> MG> Your source is a fraud and a lie foisted upon the
EH> MG> country by gullible fundies. They were hoaxed by an atheist
EH> MG> who made it all up.

EH> So, were all of the people in the show paid to lie by
EH> the atheist or the fundies? Don’t forget…the French were
EH> involved as was some “expert” from the Pentagon.

“The French” does not quite narrow it down nor does and
“expert” from the Pentagon. Do those places not have fundies?
What was the content? The show was still a fraud.

EH> MG> Also I did watch that show and there was no claim
EH> MG> regarding any other planet.
EH> MG>
EH> MG> And a TV show does not replace a knowledge of the
EH> MG> planets. There are none, period.

EH> I don’t know when you watched the show, but I saw it
EH> only a couple of days prior to my posting about it. There
EH> IS such a claim in the show.

I will not argue. You have their lie fresh in mind.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (237)
To: Edward Hudock 9 Jul 94 17:10:10
Subject: Evidence of Discrimiяяяяя

EH> >MD> Fundamentalism. A Fundamentalist is simply someone who
EH> >MD> believes that ALL of the Bible is true,

EH> MG> The Bible makes no such claim.

EH> II Timothy 3:16…

The reference is to the writings of the Israelites. The
term scripture is quite specific meaning sacred writing. Timothy
could only have been referring to that as none of the NT writings
were considered sacred at the time.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (238)
To: Michael Shirley 9 Jul 94 17:51:10
Subject: Judas Matty inna panic

MS> MG> I have never solicited Linda Thompson nor her ideas.
MS> MG> IF you had ever taken the time to read our exchanges you
MS> MG> would know that. Of course, you probably did and prefer to
MS> MG> post lies.

MS> No, it’s worse than that. What we’re dealing with
MS> is someone who insists on trying to make the world fit her
MS> reality model instead of trying to make her reality model
MS> reflect the real world. Such people are very useful to have
MS> around. Without a real world example, how many people would
MS> believe that they exist?

I can not remember one of her messages that have ever used
what was posted as a point of departure. She first imputes
something to the message that she feels capable of addressing
while ignoring the message itself.

MS> Still, for all of that I wish that the government
MS> had more people like that on their side. The existance of
MS> people who believe that their ideological premises are more
MS> important than reality, create vulnerabilities that can be
MS> exploited- and should be.

Consider it is only by putting personal ideology ahead of
the country that there is a need to take action in the first
place. By definition they are on the losing side.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (239)
To: Bert Byfield 9 Jul 94 18:03:10
Subject: Ultimatum

BB> MG> ********** AEN ALERT ********** IMPORTANT ********* AEN ALERT
BB> MG> All units will be armed and prepared to enforce this mandate.
BB> MG> This is exactly what it sounds like.
BB> MG> =====
BB> MG> And where did you get the idea this was some kind of college
BB> MG> prank war protest?

BB> I think these words are rhetoric and brinkmanship and
BB> publicity. It’s a start. It’s not a college prank of any
BB> sort. Neither is it the Symbionese Liberation Army. So
BB> what do *you* recommend? Contributions to Bob Dole’s
BB> campaign and keeping quiet otherwise? Gimme a break.

What you think is of no value. The unarmed August march was
called to give the government a “last chance” before the armed
September arrest attempts.

BB> MG> * RM 1.3 01261 * First they came for Weaver and I did not speak.
Then

BB> So, speak. Linda Thompson does.

You apparently can not read what I do write.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (241)
To: All 9 Jul 94 19:35:10
Subject: Religious Bigotry

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

Is Your Religion Government Approved?
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <7/9>

Leaders of the Black Muslim religion attack Jews and not one
politician says a word against these politically valuable, voting
bigots.
Black politicians, notably one time Presidential candidate
Jesse Jackson, campaign from the pulpits of churches and these
registered voters are not criticized.
Those who believe because of their religion that accepting
homosexuality is sinful are attacked by the Surgeon General and
a list of politicians that is growing daily. But they are voters
to. Therefore the difference must be elsewhere.
The wording of the attack is where the answer lies. The
attack is upon the religious right. It is nothing more and
nothing less than an attack based upon politics.
Clearly a form of religious conviction is being singled out
for attack because they oppose the political agenda of their
attackers. And of course the political attack is being conducted
by liberal Democrats. Thus we have every evidence of the
beginnings of another pogrom it has not gone very far yet but it
includes both party members in the Executive and Legislative
Branches of the government. It is obviously an orchestrated
attack.
Lets take another example. We protect the right of the oil
industry to form an organization and lobby Congress. In the
words of the 1st amendment these protected rights are those of
the freedom of assembly and the right to petition the government.
In the case of these attacks we are dealing with another
freedom in the same amendment that of religion which includes the
right to believe anything they want to believe and act
accordingly save for a compelling government interest against
such actions.
Here we have liberals with their liberal political agenda
who have chosen to single out fundamentalist Christians for
acting according to their religious beliefs. And what is their
political crime? Opposing the liberal political agenda because
of their religious beliefs.
The same people who can not find a reason to object to
blatant anti-semitic bigotry can find reason to attack those
another religion themselves. It is easy to see why they do not
object to religious bigotry, they are attempting to incite it
themselves. They are trying to stir up the body politic to
prevent these people from exercising rights that are protected by
the 1st amendment.
How far can it go? That depends upon how successful these
attacks are. It depends upon how many more administration
officials join in on the attack. How many more liberals will
join this attack is not known. That they all started within two
weeks of each other it is certainly a coordinated attack. Some
one is organizing it.
Who that might be it not apparent. It could be President
Clinton as his administration is part of it and he has done nothing
to change the impression he approves of it. I do not wish to
stir up Clinton defenders here but he has not distanced himself
in anyway from Elders’ attack which had nothing to do with her
job as Surgeon General and was a purely political attack.
As there is no “liberal” caucus then as far as we can go is
identify it is being coordinated by someone high up in the
Democratic party. Who that might be is speculation but as Elders
is part of it and she reports to Clinton that again leads to him
as the coordinator.
That means we can expect these attacks to increase and to
become as vicious and to grow as quickly as possible keeping in
the mind the possibility of a public backlash.
I can not see why, after all of these years of working to
erase religious intolerance, liberals are now working to create
it again. It appears antithetical to everything they have worked
for the decades to now revert to such crude bigotry. It almost
makes one think they were hypocrites all along.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-547

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (249)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 9 Jul 94 22:24:10
Subject: Traitor

BS> > LT> MG> The latest is that he ordered the uniformed people
BS> > who had
BS> > LT> MG> been invited to a White House reception to serve
BS> > the hor
BS> > LT> MG> d’vours.
BS> >
BS> > LT> I keep reading about this. Where was it
BS> > LT> published/broadcast? Source, please. I’d like to
BS> > read it
BS> > LT> for myself. (sarcasm mode OFF)
BS> >
BS> > Washington Times, Inside the Beltway feature. I’ll

BS> I think something more reliable than the Washington Times
BS> should be given as a source.

I would suggest to you no one has established the paper to
be other than a credible source of information.

BS> This paper of the Reverend Moon is a loss-making propaganda
BS> vehicle. Moon claimed that he has taken over $1billion in
BS> losses by running the Times.

Which only demonstrates you have never read it and have no
idea of its contents. I would suggest you find a copy and learn
what you are talking about.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 3. Kill ’til no Fed breaths American air.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (250)
To: All 9 Jul 94 22:26:10
Subject: Curiouser and curiouser

*********** Original To: BILL BLOMGREN
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0108 – Giwer World-L
———————————————————————–

On 07/09/94 BILL BLOMGREN to MATT GIWER on Curiouser and curiouser

BB> Seems like Guantanamo is an ideal place.. Just leave one
BB> hole in the fence, and let Fidel take care of them all…
BB> Just say “miami is over *there* <pointing at hole..>

Brilliant. Spread the rumor it is a ruse and they are
really in Florida and if they can only escape there are attorneys
waiting outside to guarantee they can stay. It would make a good
payback for the Carter Boatlift.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Please petition the brain-bank as a hardship case.
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+++ююююю r_940713 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (202)
To: Linda Terrell 10 Jul 94 18:34:10
Subject: Hatchet-job

LT> MG> LT> The ONLY word we have that Clinton waved his wang at
LT> MG> LT> Jones is. . .Jones’. The original article has the Guard,
LT> MG> LT> Fergusson, saying that Jones left telling him that she was
LT> MG> LT> “available” to be Clinton’s girlfriend.
LT> MG>
LT> MG> And the only word we had was Hill’s. What is the
LT> MG> difference? None obviously.

LT> The difference is I wasn’t talking about HIll.

People defending Clinton never want to.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (203)
To: Jim Gillispie 10 Jul 94 18:35:10
Subject: Mt.Carmel info

JG> MG> It is good to have an expert here. There have been reports
JG> MG> that CS should not be used in wooden structures. Can you confirm
JG> MG> or deny?

JG> well, First off, please do not call me an expert. The real
JG> experts on CB warfare have been to extensive schooling on the
JG> subject. Most of them have forgotten more about the subject than
JG> I ever could care to learn. I have just read more than the
JG> ‘average bear’ on the subject due to professional necessity /
JG> curiosity, and have some pretty good first hand experience with
JG> it.

JG> CS, in its activated state is a gas/vapor. However, depending
JG> upon the deployment technique, readily combustible materials in
JG> the target area should be considered. See below…

Originally From: Steven Springer

Subj: C10H5ClN2 = CS Gas

The following was obtained from the Merck Index, eleventh edition.

2127. o-Chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile.
[(2-Chlorophenyl)methylene]- propanedinitrile;
o-chlorobenalmalononitrile; b,b-dicyano-o-chlorostyrene; CS.
C10H5ClN2; mol wt 188.61. C 63.68%, H 2.67%, Cl 18.80%, N14.85%.
Lacrimatory chemical warefare agent. Prepn: B.B. Corson, R.W.
Stoughton, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 50, 2825 (1928). Pharmacology: R.W.
Brimblecombe et al. Brit. J. Pharmacol. 44, 561 (1972).
Toxicology: C.L. Punte et al., Toxicol Appl. Pharmacol. 4, 656
(1962); J.R. Gaskins et al., Arch. Environ. Health 24, 449
(1972); B. Ballantyne, S. Callaway, Med. Sci. Law 12, 43 (1972).
Comparative toxicity of CS and w-chloroacetophenone, q.v.: B.
Ballantyne, D.W. Swanston, Arch. Toxicol. 40, 75 (1978)

Cl CN
_ / /
/ \ __ CH=C
\ _ / \
CN

White crystalline solid, mp 95-96o, bp 310-315o. Vapor press
at 20o: 3.4 X 10-5 mm Hg. Sparingly sol in water; sol. in
acetone, dioxane, methylene chloride, ethyl aceatate, benzene.
LD50 in rats: 28mg/kg i.v, 48mg/kg i.p; LC50 in rats: 88,480
mg/min/m3, B. Ballantyne, D.W. Swanston, loc. cit.

USE: Riot control agent; a more potent irritant than
w-chloroacetophenone but less incapacitating. Caution: Potent
eye, throat, and skin irritant.

*** End of Text ***

Note: w-chloroacetophenone is CN tear gas.

Note: Because of limitations of the characters that are available
to me, the above does not match what is in the Merck Index
exactly. In some instances I have tried to use upper Ascii
characters which may or may not be compatible with use on a BBS.
In other cases I tried the best I could. The molecule structure
above is (I am told) a benzene molecule structure. It does not
match what is in the Merck Index exactly, but is as close as I
could come. For those of you that didn’t take chemistry who
cares right.

NOW NOTE THE REASON I POSTED THIS:

The active ingredient in CS tear gas is a SOLID. It must be
mixed with some type of solvent to be used. Note the solvents
that CS is soluble in. Water is only a marginal solvent as CS is
only “Sparingly soluble” in water. Of the other chemicals
listed, only methylene chloride is not flammable. Acetone and
Benzene are listed as “highly flammable” in the Merck Index.
Dioxane and Ethyl Acetate is listed as “flammable”.

The L.D. = Lethal Dose; LD50 is a dose which is lethal to 50% of
the animals tested (sorry PETA fans).

Acetone LD50 = 10.7ml/Kg orally in rats. Dioxane
LD50 = 5.7 mg/Kg (5.2 orally) in mice/rats Benzene
LD50 = 3.8 ml/Kg Acute toxicity in humans Ethyl Acetate
LD50 = 11.3ml/Kg orally in rats Methylene Chloride LD50 =
1.6ml/Kg Human toxicity: Narcotic in High concentrations.

Note that it takes less Methylene Chloride to kill rats than the
other chemicals.

What is my point? I think that someone should investigate how
“non-flammable” the CS gas that was use on Mt. Carmel was. They
were using military equipment to dispense this gas. How is the
military CS gas formulated? If the FBI used CS gas with say
Acetone, could that be the excellerant that fed the fire at Mt.
Carmel? Remember, they used a lot of gas in a lot of places over
an period of hours.

========================================================================

JG> MG> As CS is a solid what it the dispersal method? The
JG> MG> government has variously reported acetone and carbon
JG> MG> monoxide.

JG> CS/CN can be dispersed by a number of means ranging
JG> from sprayers mounted on aircraft to grenades and
JG> mortars. Basically they boil down to either a
JG> bursting or burning munitions. The bursting variety
JG> uses impact with an object, or a small
JG> detonator(squib) to break the seal of the projectile
JG> and spray the chemical contents in liquified form
JG> around the area where the agent will turn to vapor.
JG>
JG> The burning variety works one of two ways:
JG>
JG> 1) combustion gases within the cannister force the
JG> agent through outlet nozzles in the cannister into the
JG> atmosphere as small particles or vapor.
JG>
JG> 2) a burning mixture inside the cannister vaporizes
JG> the chemical and on contact with air the agent
JG> condenses. I pulled out all of the info I have
JG> available from the various Fleet Marine Force Manuals
JG> and found no mention of either one. The only other
JG> substance mentioned was to dispersing agents from a
JG> chloroform mixture. The only agent I could find that
JG> directly referenced this was CNC which is another of
JG> the Riot Control agents but I’m not aware that it was
JG> used at Mt. Carmel.

JG> MG> Finally, have you ever used it with fire in a closed
JG> MG> environment? Here I am referring to the known use of
JG> MG> kerosene lamps at Waco.

JG> no, burning the training areas is too expensive I guess <g>.

JG> MG> And again you call it a gas but it is a solid. What is the
JG> MG> dispersal method?

JG> in its inactive state it is usually stored as a solid for
JG> ease of handling and safety reasons.

Then how is it activated?

JG> MG> They were exposed for six hours. Is that long enough?

JG> ok, I’m confused here. Didn’t the compound erupt into
JG> a huge fire rather quickly?

No. The gassing started at 6am and the fire did not start
until about six hours later.

Once again, referring to
JG> what I gleened from the news here. If not though, it
JG> would have taken a nearly continuous assault of the
JG> compound with the “ferret” grenades to keep the
JG> concentration of the gas up. CS condenses out of the
JG> air rather rapidly. Usually within about ten minutes
JG> or so depending on meteorological conditions. Higher
JG> ambient temperatures and lower humidity will delay its
JG> condensing to a degree.

From trial testimony the plan was to use the pumped “gas” to
keep people out of the hallways and the grenades to get the
people in the rooms.

JG> JG> Something else was in the works there. What that
JG> JG> was we may never know. But it was not fires caused
JG> JG> by CS/CN gas.

JG> MG> That was not the claim in the first place. Rather that the
JG> MG> propellant acetone (if that is a correct claim by the
JG> MG> government) was the cause of the fire. There is also the
JG> MG> suggestion that the grenades were the cause of the fire.
JG> MG> The burn by-product of cyanide as a cause of death is also
JG> MG> being suggested.

JG> ok, probably got off subject a little in my tirade
JG> <g>. Still looking for references to acetone and
JG> cyanide. Will keep you abreast of any info I come
JG> across. As fer the grenades, if that was the method
JG> of deployment, 300 of them definitely could have
JG> started a fire. Another note: *300* 40mm CS grenades
JG> would, in my ameteur estimation, produce enough CS
JG> vapor to effectively push out all the oxygen in a
JG> building the size of the Mt. Carmel compound. And
JG> that would indeed create some breathing problems.
JG>
JG> I hope this answered your queries satisfactorily. If
JG> not I’m sure I’ll hear from ya again. Take care, and
JG> keep writin’!

Thank you very much.

—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Get Janet a fiddle.
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+++ююююю r_940714 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (184)
To: All 11 Jul 94 05:17:10
Subject: Holocaust

*********** Original To: JAMES WALDRON
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Worldtalk

On 07/09/94 JAMES WALDRON to ALL on Holocaust

JW> This is fair warning that ALL holocoust DISBELIEVERS are to
JW> take their fantasies and whatever other demons they are
JW> possesed with to ANY OTHER echo but DO NOT continue to
JW> debate the holocaust occurence in WORLDTLK. If you
JW> continue to do so, you will be asked to leave the echo or
JW> suffer a link cut. UNFORTUNATELY, the holocoust DID occur
JW> and we don’t need idiotic denial morons attesting to a
JW> different scenario. There’s been enough suffering
JW> already.

Sir, not to continue it but there has NEVER, EVER been a
debate as to the occurrence of the holocaust. Not once as in
NEVER EVER. I have so stipulated in dozens of messages. The
only discussion has been as to the existence of gas chambers.
You know that and you will not acknowledge that.

What do you call a person who makes a claim contrary to
fact while knowingly doing so? You do not like that name so you
have told me.

You are making yourself a classic example of those I have
identified.

You are not a moderator, you are a paristan and the only way
you can silence questioning is to prohibit disbelieve. You are
no better than a Nazi.

I do remark that you have proved my claim that few can
separate a challenge to gas chambers from the holocaust which did
occur.

What in the hell are you talking about?

NO ONE in this conference EVER denied the Holocaust occurred
EVER.

Everything I have said it true. I will also take the
liberty of cross posting this response all over the world. You
will of course ban me for telling the truth. That also I will
crosspost to the world.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (185)
To: All 11 Jul 94 06:13:10
Subject: Holocaust

Worldtalk — Fido

On 07/09/94 JAMES WALDRON to ALL on Holocaust

What do you call a person who makes a claim contrary to
fact while knowingly doing so? You do not like that name so you
have told me.

You are making yourself a classic example of those I have
identified.

You are not a moderator, you are a paristan and the only way
you can silence questioning is to prohibit disbelieve. You are
no better than a Nazi.

I do remark that you have proved my claim that few can
separate a challenge to gas chambers from the holocaust which did
occur.

What in the hell are you talking about?

NO ONE in this conference EVER denied the Holocaust occurred
EVER.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (214)
To: Jim Higgins 11 Jul 94 17:10:10
Subject: Waco travesty

JH> Seriously, what do you place the odds at for him really
JH> being Muy all along?

Very unlikely Muy would call long distance for his mail.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: Gary Steinweg 11 Jul 94 17:11:10
Subject: Waco travesty

GS> You’re right. He provided an excellent forum, but the
GS> continuous chant to go back to ground zero and rehash stuff
GS> that’s been totally established becomes very tedious
GS> indeed. Besides, after doing all that, he’d just ask you
GS> to do it again, and again, and again. Sorta makes one feel
GS> like a dog chasing sticks.

That is why they invented twit filters.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (218)
To: All 11 Jul 94 23:12:10
Subject: Whew. scary stuff.

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: BUBBA DICK DALE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 07/08/94 – 0004838
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0108 – Giwer World-L
———————————————————————–

KPOC-TV in Ponca City, Oklahoma, has been doing some investigative
reporting on the Davidian murders in Waco. They’ve turned up some
VERY interesting things — there were army choppers from Ft. Hood
brought in for the initial assault (an illegal police action) and
one of the pilots admitted that the government fired first. They
have videotape of ONE bullet hole in a single BATF vehicle, which
shows that the Davidians may not have fired much at all, much less
the “hail of gunfire” which the BATF claimed. The front doors to
the compound are missing, and they’d show which direction the
bullets were flying. The company that produced the CS gas told the
government not to use it in a certain manner or it would produce
cyanide gas. During the cleanup, several people were treated for
cyanide poisoning. The infrared tape of the compound has the
time/date numbers blurred or altered, and 4.5 minutes are missing
from right at the start of the fire. That footage would show who
started the fire. Finally, there were NO illegal weapons found
that belonged to the Davidians. The illegal arms were PLANTED
there by the BATF (which they admitted).

There is more, but just that evidence should be enough to bring
up Janet Reno, Bob Riggs and the BATF people on charges of first
degree murder.

The latest news: KPOC-TV has been receiving “interesting” (and
anonymous) communications suggesting that further investigation
might be unwise. They have apparently posted armed guards. When
they finish their investigation and get the tape footage together,
their program is supposed to air on some 160 TV stations.

What a wonderful government. So much for freedom of religion and
freedom of the press, not to mention balance of power.

—
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+++ююююю r_940715 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (184)
To: Larry Sites 12 Jul 94 04:42:10
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH’S ARK

LS> The “Noah’s Ark” prime-time special aired in February,
LS> [1993] with Jammal as its “piece de resistance,”
LS> hilariously recounting how he and a mysterious friend named
LS> “Vladimir” laboriously climbed snowy Mt. Ararat, and hacked
LS> out a pice of historic wood from the ark. (“We got very
LS> excited when we saw part of this room was made into pens,
LS> like places where you keep animals,” Jammal deadpanned.
LS> “We knew then that we had found the ark!” he said in the
LS> interview.) According to Larue, Jammal soaked a piece of
LS> contemporary pine in creative marinades and baked it in his
LS> Long Beach, California home. During the CBS interview,
LS> Jammal choked up when he stated why he had kept this
LS> “incredible” discovery to himself, maintaining he was
LS> traumatized by the untimely demise of Vladimir on the
LS> mountain.

What I liked best about the show was that the voice over
claimed there was no layering in the Grand Canyon while the
footage was an over flight of the Grand Canyon showing the
layering.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (185)
To: Andrew Cummins 12 Jul 94 04:46:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

On 07/09/94 ANDREW CUMMINS to EDWARD HUDOCK on Flood / Noah’s Ark

AC> No water for drillers to hit because the water didn’t
AC> return. Besides, oil rigs don’t drill that deep, besides,
AC> there are traces of water that have been found very low
AC> which shouldn’t be there because it couldn’t seep down that
AC> low (the pressure gets to a point where pores are squeezed
AC> closed and water can go no lower). The flood wasn’t 8
AC> miles deep, didn’t need to be. There’s enough water now to
AC> cover the whole earth if there wasn’t much more than two
AC> miles between the ocean floor and the tops of the
AC> mountains. Mountains, like Everest, were created before or
AC> during the flood by flood-related mechanisms.

What a fucking liar.

AC> Inbreeding is dangerous for two reasons. First, it allows
AC> genetic mutations a better chance to manifest themselves.
AC> But, this wouldn’t be a problem when the gene pool was
AC> healthier, before mutations and a chance to do much damage
AC> to the gene pool (“genetic load”). Secondly, inbreeding
AC> limits the gene pool to the individuals inbreeding. This
AC> wouldn’t be a problem if the individuals already have a
AC> rich gene pool. BTW, it’s possible for just two people to
AC> carry almost all of the genetic information in all the
AC> people of the world today. But, enough of these little
AC> facts. <G>

More lies.

Obviously all creationists are liars.

AC> EH> on the ark. The point was also made that inside the ark it
AC> EH> was dark. Darkness affects animals…reducing their eating
AC> EH> habits, increasing their sleeping time, etc.. Also, who is
AC> EH> to say that all the animals were full blown adults? God
AC> EH> brought the animals to Noah…Noah didn’t go get them. We
AC> EH> can’t remove God from the picture.

AC> The animals would have been fairly inactive, and would have
AC> lost a lot of weight, but there really isn’t a problem when
AC> you consider that most species didn’t need to be on the
AC> ark, or were very small. Besides, there was plenty of fish
AC> to eat. <G>

And not only liars but stupid.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (186)
To: Bob Sakowski 12 Jul 94 04:52:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

BS> re: The “great” flood

BS> Wonder why Andrew never explains where the water came
BS> from……. and just as important, where did it go to?

Because he is an idiot.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (187)
To: Andrew Cummins 12 Jul 94 04:53:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Arkяяяяяяя

AC> If an ark is ever found… watch how fast you consider such
AC> a “stupid theory” as a possibility. <G>

If? You said it had been found before the fraud was
exposed. You lied again.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (188)
To: Bob Sillyheimer 12 Jul 94 05:01:10
Subject: Waco

BS> This may be ancient history to Waco experts, but it indicates to
BS> me that BATF had reason to worry about violence from the Branch
BS> Davidians

BS> The Waco Tragedy, by James A. Haught, in FREE INQUIRY, Summer
BS> 1994

Did they give any source for this or did they make it up
also?

Just where does one buy machine guns as was claimed? I have
saved it and go over it line by line but that is hardly the issue
is it.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (199)
To: Linda Terrell 12 Jul 94 14:56:10
Subject: Hatchet-job

LT> MG> LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT> MG> And the only word we had was Hill’s. What is the
LT> MG> LT> MG> difference? None obviously.
LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT> The difference is I wasn’t talking about HIll.

LT> Probably because Anita Hill didn’t sue Clinton.

The allegations were also trivial in comparison.

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (202)
To: All 12 Jul 94 15:25:10
Subject: Brady

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE For further information,
June 29, 1994 call: Tom Wyld, NRA Public Affairs
703-267-3820

ANOTHER COURT DECLARES BRADY ACT UNCONSTITUTIONAL

Deciding in favor of Arizona sheriff, court declares Brady “void
for vagueness”

WASHINGTON, D.C. — Siding with law enforcement officials and the
National Rifle Association of America, U.S. District Judge John
M. Roll of Arizona declared yesterday that so-called mandatory
background checks under the Brady Act are unconstitutional. It
was the third court victory for chief law enforcement officers in
suits backed by NRA.

“This is the first suit in which the Act was found void for
vagueness,'” said Mrs. Tanya K. Metaksa, Executive Director of
NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action. “The Court also rejected
the government’s claim that Brady imposes no criminal penalties
on law enforcement. It is gratifying that federal judges concur
in arguments NRA made against the Act when it was in bill form.

“These same arguments apply to the so-called Brady II’ — a gun
ban and restrictive licensing scheme modeled after New York City.
Now these arguments cannot be ignored.”

Mrs. Metaksa noted that, while individual sheriffs were
challenging Brady in court, the National Sheriffs’ Association
decided, by resolution June 15, to strongly oppose Brady II.'”

Key issues resolved by the court:

– Despite what the Justice Department argued, the Brady Act
threatened law enforcement with criminal sanctions. The Court
found that the U.S. Government’s protestations to the contrary
“fall on all fronts.”

– The states are not agencies of the federal government and chief
law enforcement officers are not federal agents. The court held
that the Brady Act violated the Tenth Amendment and found the
U.S. Government’s arguments “disingenuous” and “not merit[ing]
further comment.”

– Criminal statutes must clearly define what is forbidden; Brady
did not. The plaintiff, Sheriff Richard Mack of Graham County,
Arizona, was obliged under the Act to perform a “reasonable
effort” background check. The Court held that requirement void
under the Fifth Amendment’s due process clause.

“The real tragedy continues — namely, that the federal
government continues to commandeer local law enforcement to
implement a political agenda rather than empowering law
enforcement to attack criminals directly,” said Mrs. Metaksa.
“Tonight, Sheriff Mack will patrol his vast jurisdiction, arrest
criminals, crack tough cases and respond to calls for assistance.
In short, he will heed the people he serves, not politicians and
bureaucrats thousands of miles away.”

Mrs. Metaksa congratulated Sheriff Mack for having the courage to
take on the federal leviathan and win.

The phrasing of Judge Roll’s decision suggests that an injunction
against enforcement of the Act applies nationwide. Thus, it
appears likely that government enforcement of the applicable
portions of the Brady Act anywhere in the United States — and
certainly in the District of Arizona — is forbidden.

– nra –

Downloaded from GUN-TALK (703-719-6406)
A service of the
National Rifle Association
Institute for Legislative Action
Fairfax, VA 22030

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (235)
To: All 13 Jul 94 00:55:10
Subject: New problem

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0036 – Controversy-F
———————————————————————–

This is going to be off topic in many conferences but I have
not heard of a problem like this before.

I was getting around to cleaning up all the unused stuff on
the HD and was using DDEL, like DELTREE, to clean up all those
great promise programs that delivered crippled nothing.

From the best post mortem I could do it appears a
subdirectory became linked with the main directory in some manner
perhaps as is done in SHARE, I have no idea. However, by the
time I caught it, it had trashed so much of main and all of its
sub-directories that reformatting was easier than trying to
replace the missing files.

I have never heard of this before and it is obviously a
serious problem.

(BTW: I need replacements of any public keys that might
have been sent me and the numbers for ABJECT POVERTY and
T-RECALL. Sloppy use of tape backup is as bad as not using it at
all.)

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (238)
To: Bert Byfield 13 Jul 94 02:46:10
Subject: Bible Lies?

BB> PR> MG> TH> There have been many events in human history that were
BB> PR> MG> TH> considered impossible…

BB> PR> MG> TH> Untill they happened!

BB> PR> MG> Name them.

BB> PR> Walking on the moon.

BB> some more:
BB> changing lead into gold (even though not economic)
BB> airplanes, and breaking the sound barrier
BB> Einstein proved that Newton was a little off with his formulas
BB> birth control
BB> air conditioning
BB> Russians to beat the USA into space with their Sputnik
BB> direct dial to countries all over the world
BB> 50 channels on television (still nothing decent on)
BB> (this list is endless really)

You are invited to provide primary sources and quotations of
statements of “impossibility” and demonstrate those citations
were generally accepted in the world at the time.

When you fail to do this be certain to come back and
redefine the claim.

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+++ююююю r_940716 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (82)
To: Linda Terrell 13 Jul 94 15:00:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

LT> MG> AC> you consider that most species didn’t need to be on the
LT> MG> AC> ark, or were very small. Besides, there was plenty of fish
LT> MG> AC> to eat. <G>
LT> MG>
LT> MG> And not only liars but stupid.

LT> Yes, don’t cattle and elephants and antelope just love to eat
LT> fish?

Only if poached.

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+++ююююю r_940717 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (66)
To: Jim Higgins 13 Jul 94 19:26:10
Subject: 10Th Ammendment Bills

JH> MG> You intend to carry flowers while a part of an armed group
JH> MG> that is going to arrest the president and Congress. I fail to
JH> MG> see any comparison.

JH> I’ve offered him $5 for every Representative or Senator
JH> arrested against his will if he will give me $1 for each
JH> one not arrested. So far he isn’t taking the offer.

I’ll offer him $10 for each one arrested.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (67)
To: Phillip Robertson 13 Jul 94 19:27:10
Subject: bible lies?

PR> MG> PR> MG> TH> There have been many events in human history that
PR> MG> were
PR> MG> PR> MG> TH> considered impossible…
PR> MG> PR> MG>
PR> MG> PR> MG> TH> Untill they happened!
PR> MG> PR> MG>
PR> MG> PR> MG> Name them.
PR> MG>
PR> MG> PR> Walking on the moon.
PR> MG>
PR> MG> I grew up expecting to have cities on the moon by now.

PR> Than you strengthen TH’s point.

The claim was that it was considered impossible. I hardly
did nor did millions of others.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (68)
To: Cheryl Johnson 13 Jul 94 19:28:10
Subject: bible lies?

CJ> MG>TH> There have been many events in human history that were
CJ> MG>TH> considered impossible…

CJ> MG>TH> Untill they happened!

CJ> MG> Name them.

CJ> Running the mile in under 4 minutes.
CJ> The fall of communism in Russia
CJ> Women priests in the Episcopal/Anglican Church
CJ> Organ transplants (so much more effective than bleeding a person!)
CJ> Mass production
CJ> ___the list could go on and on. It is only human thought(lessness) that
CJ> limits possibilities.

Impossible or merely highly unlikely?

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (69)
To: Jim Gillispie 13 Jul 94 19:31:10
Subject: Mt.Carmel info

JG> given that the similarities between rat and human cardio-vascular
JG> systems are closely matched:

JG> a lethal dose LD50 of 28mg/kg i.v (intavenous) in a 150lb
JG> (68.18kg) human works out to:

…..

JG> 0.088oz * 80,000 ft^3 = 7,053.2oz or 440.8lbs of agent
JG> suspended in the air of the compound for at least one (1)
JG> minute.

Yes but I am not suggesting it was poisoning in the manner
you are calculating it. I came across the information, and I am
going to have to re-read it refresh my memory that long exposure
in children, the elderly and those with certain lung problems it
induces chemical pneumonia. Their lungs will start filling with
fluid and that it is life threatening.

That is an entirely different mechanism.

JG> MG> Note that it takes less Methylene Chloride to kill rats than the
JG> MG> other chemicals.

JG> MG> What is my point? I think that someone should investigate how
JG> MG> “non-flammable” the CS gas that was use on Mt. Carmel was. They

JG> good point, could be a “lesson learned” for future operations
JG> involving any type of unit employing CS grenades.

I would have thought, given your description of the grenades
themselves themselves (weight and range,) that they should
consider using them even if filled with water. Sounds very
likely to be deadly in that manner.

JG> I think if either Acetone or Benzene were to build up to a high
JG> enough concentration of vapor to be ignited by an exposed flame such
JG> as a kerosene lantern they would have made a very big BOOM. Big
JG> enough to blow out _all_ the windows and most of the the exterior
JG> walls of the compoud. To my recollection, “highly flammable” is a
JG> mild term regarding these two.

Well taken.

JG> MG> From trial testimony the plan was to use the pumped “gas” to
JG> MG> keep people out of the hallways and the grenades to get the
JG> MG> people in the rooms.

JG> curious to find out how extensive the pumping was.

I have seen the jury rigged CEVs on tape. I am not certain
just what I was seeing but it was a vee shape with the wide ends
mounted and the tip of the vee inserted. The arms appeared to be
about thick. They appeared to be round.

JG> MG> Thank you very much.

JG> you’re quite welcome! I’m still trying to dig up info on the
JG> collateral chemicals used as solvents in our munitions. I’m
JG> hoping that the training dept. at work can give me some info.

That will be appreciated. I really can’t imagine it is
classified information unless the Army has much different
criteria than the Navy did.

JG> I know I hit all the lesser points, hope I managed to cover the
JG> greater ones to the extent that I could too.

I am keeping the message.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (70)
To: Gary Steinweg 13 Jul 94 19:49:10
Subject: Religious Bigotry

GS> MG> to change the impression he approves of it. I do not wish to
GS> MG> stir up Clinton defenders here but he has not distanced himself
GS> MG> in anyway from Elders’ attack which had nothing to do with her
GS> MG> job as Surgeon General and was a purely political attack.

GS> Funny you should mention this. I’ve seen several instances of
GS> administration appointees jumping into something where they
GS> should have no say or interest, for that matter. Example:
GS> Janet Reno promoting the Clinton health plan. What does that
GS> have to do the the office of the Attorney General?

And, unlike with Elders, it is possible to make a credible
case that Reno understands what her job is.

=====

A new campaign against the Clinton Health Care Plan is
starting.

“He picked her for the health of nation. Now he wants to
take care of your personal health.”

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (71)
To: Ann Ross 13 Jul 94 19:52:10
Subject: Ultimatum

AR> MG> Breaks of the game. The learning curve has to start some
AR> MG> where. I expect to give it a good kick off on logistics and
AR> MG> supplies. They are not my specialties but I learned enough from
AR> MG> the people I was managing to do it. I may even be able to pass
AR> MG> on the rudiments of organization and chain of command.

AR> The desks of rear-echelon keyboard punchers (formerly, pencil
AR> pushers) are the safest place for cowards. Yellow still becomes
AR> you.

Aiding an abetting a revolution will still be considered
treason.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (73)
To: All 13 Jul 94 22:04:10
Subject: MILITARY WAITERS

*********** Original To: RON HATHCOCK
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0945 – Limbaugh-F
———————————————————————–

RH> MG> Can anyone post a full quote and source for this story?

RH> My mother called me on Friday, July 1, and read it to me from her local
RH> paper, the Commercial Appeal, in Memphis, TN. I haven’t a copy of it, nor
RH> was it carried in my local papers.

Got it.

Washington Times, June 28, 1994 page A8, “SERVICE WARFARE”
“One of the four White House military aides who, while in uniform were
forced last Tuesday night to carry hors d’oeuvre trays about the White
House offering food to guests of President Clinton and Hillary Rodham
Clinton yesterday paid visits to the Capitol Hill offices of Rep. Dan
Burton, Indiana Republican, and Newt Gingrich, Georgia Republican.
The four officers drafted as waiters, Mr. Burton learned in the
meeting were a Marine officer who serves on the personal staff of Marine
Corp Commandant Carl Mundy, an Air Force captain who has worked in the
space programs, a Navy lieutenant who is a surface-warfare officer, and
a lieutenant who is a naval intelligence officer.
The officer described the scenario as personally degrading and told
the congressman that he and fellow officers were ordered by a worried
White House staff not to common on the incident.
“Once again, the White House had tried to put a lid on things,” Mr.
Burton commented later. “Sooner or later, they are going to have more
pots than they have lids.”
“Mr. Burton said, “The entire U.S. military deserves a public
apology.”
Meanwhile, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. Randy
“Duke” Cunningham, California Republican, has sent a letter to Mr.
Clinton saying that “as a retired Navy fighter pilot and an American who
considers it a privilege to have served my country in combat, I consider
the lack of respect shown to these military officers personally
deplorable…Military personnel in the White House are not domestics.”

—
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (77)
To: Fred Garvin 14 Jul 94 04:16:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

FG> PJ> I liked it….

FG> It’s quite simple, really. Why do you think most Australian mammals are
FG> marsupeals? After the Ark landed on Mt. Ararat, marsupeal mammals inflated
FG> their pouches and FLOATED to Australia! No other mammal was capable of
floating
FG> that long.

In fact that explains why they have pull out straws in their
pouches like fruit juice containers. You have finally found the
explanation. You may also have explained why they have such huge
rear legs, all the better to swim with.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (78)
To: Fred Garvin 14 Jul 94 04:30:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Ark

FG> AC> The animals would have been fairly inactive, and would have
FG> AC> lost a lot of weight, but there really isn’t a problem when you
FG> AC> consider that most species didn’t need to be on the ark, or
FG> AC> were very small. Besides, there was plenty of fish to eat. <G>

FG> LT> Oh gosh yes, horses and sheep and goats and giraffes and
FG> LT> kangaroos etc. just *love* fish.

FG> Ha ha! Sarcasm! Well I got news for you! Haven’t you ever heard of the
FG> Fish-Eating Antelope??? 🙂

FG> Then again, if all those critters ate hay, what did the lions eat?

Each other of course. There was no food taken on board.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (79)
To: Doug Brewer 14 Jul 94 04:31:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Arkяяяяяяя

DB> I had heard, and I’m gonna start researching today, that fish fossils
have
DB> been found in the Rockies. How would they have gotten there, assuming it’s
DB> true?

The fish found there are from the time before the mountains
formed. It is will understood.

DB> Also, I never saw this Sun Productions show; but In Search of did a show
DB> about Noah’s Ark too. They also said it was on Ararat, etc…

They also lied.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (80)
To: Jim Gillispie 14 Jul 94 04:33:10
Subject: Flood / Noah’s Arkяяяяяяя

JG> EH> According to the show, the water came form the canopy above the
JG> EH> Earth and from within the Earth, as per above…
JG> EH> Ed

JG> You’ve got my interest peaked. What was the name of this show
JG> again? I’d like to take a peep at it if possible. Is the canopy
JG> referred to above different from the water contained within the
JG> atmosphere?

How would they know? They made it up.

If there was water above the earth’s atmosphere then it was
in orbit. There is only one stable orbit for that is it would be
rings like Saturn and even thinner. We can see Saturn’s rings
when they are edge on to us as they are too thin. From this you
can not get six miles worth of water.

JG> What is the theory concerning how the water contained within the
JG> Earth was expelled from it. I’m just speculating here, but the
JG> logical means to accomplish this would seem to be a significant
JG> heating of the interior of the Earth itself. And in doing so,
JG> wouldn’t this significantly lessen the ability to
JG> condense/precipitate moisture from the atmosphere/canopy?

Beyond the amazing coincidence they will never answer where
it went.

JG> You’ll have to excuse me, I’m one of the godless heathens so I
JG> don’t buy into miracles, especially when they appear to violate
JG> the known laws of physics. I have been interested in the topic
JG> of The Flood for some time now, though.

The Noah’s Ark story requires the highest miracle density of
any story in the Bible.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (124)
To: Jim Gillispie 14 Jul 94 18:32:10
Subject: New problem

JG> We’ll probably both be shot for being off topic on this one.
JG> Sorry Mr. Mod. But I’ll keep it short and sweet.

JG> I’ve had this problem once when I was stationed in Japan. Lost
JG> about 15,000 lines of program source code (a really bad day!).
JG> Lemme guess, are you using an IDE HD? That’s the only common
JG> link I’ve found with this happening. IDE does some weird
JG> (technical term) stuff with the hard drive to get more space out
JG> of it. There is no fix for it, only prevention. Regularly run
JG> CHKDSK /f or SCANDISK on your drive to clean up the lost cluster
JG> chains and let the HD do some house cleaning.
JG> Then back everything up to tape, march down to the PC store of
JG> your choice and buy a SCSI HD & Controller. More expensive, but
JG> worth it in speed and grey hair.

It is an IDE but it was not something the IDE did
deliberately as the cross-linked directory was a sub-sub that I
had created. It was not one created by the drive. But at least
it is an IDE so we have that much.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (224)
To: Ron Havlen 15 Jul 94 01:45:10
Subject: Bang Bang!

RH> MG> But more than ten guns, 9+ more than could possibly used at
RH> MG>one time are going to be real soon.

RH> That’s not true, Matt. HR3932 calls for 20 or more guns, or more than
RH> 1000 rounds of ammunition to require an arsenal license. Never mind that
RH> the 1000 rounds is merely 2 bricks of .22 ammo. Never mind that most
RH> Trap, Skeet, and target shooters are nearly required to have more than
RH> that to effectively participate in thier sports. Your claim of only
RH> needing one gun (at a time) needs a great deal of justification.

You are not reading. I said using not needing.

The entire scare tactic behind the arsenal law is to presume
a person with a million rifles is more dangerous than a person
with one rifle.

I have already predicted that no one in any public debate
will raise that issue.

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The Aktion Reinhard Death Camps

Auschwitz Birkenau

Bergen-Belsen

Buchenwald

Chelmno

Dachau

Maidanek (Majdanek)

Mauthausen

Nordhausen

Belzec

Treblinka

Mittelbau Dora

Gusen

Westerbork

Matthias Giwer

John Hron

Ken McVay

Steve Thomas

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