Giwer, controv 5-1994

The problem with Linda Thompson’s plan is that it is
tactically infeasable. Any number of people to have an effect
that might make the DC local news can not get any place near the
White House or Congress before troops from three bases and two
police departments converge on them. The nearest place is about
two miles if you are a crow and 2.5 if you have to walk. They
will have to walk.

It is called for a Monday morning in the middle of rush
hour. It is the unrealized dream of dozens of protest marches to
create a traffic jam during rush hour. It is not a feasible
activity.

Their only hope is for some variation upon a Mouse That
Roared scenario.

The call for carrying arms makes they liable to police
arrest in both Virginia and DC.

®®юю R_9405 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940527 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (8)
To: All 15 May 94 02:14:10
Subject: 00: ultimatum


* RM 1.3 01261 * Guns cause crime and cars cause vehicular homicide.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (12)
To: Paul West 15 May 94 02:00:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

PW> JB> Agreed, but I think that Ms. Thompson’s actions are going
PW> JB> to be very harmful for those of us still using the
PW> JB> peaceful ballot-box method.

PW> Ms Thompson claims that elections are fixed. I have
PW> thought the opinion polls were fixed but the vote? It is
PW> my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with her
PW> threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing the
PW> 2nd Amendment. 🙁

Which would only speed the present agenda and the time table
for the revolution.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (13)
To: Linda Terrell 15 May 94 02:04:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

LT> PW> It is my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with
LT> PW> her threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing
LT> PW> the 2nd Amendment. 🙁

LT> fortunately, you cannot “repeal” an amendment, and
LT> certainly Congress alone cannot. You have to *Amend* an
LT> amendment and 2/3 of the states have to ratify it.

Even harder, 3/4. The problem is the explicit effort to
get around it.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (15)
To: All 10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: BEN DELISLE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0003096
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

Newsgroups: seattle.general,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.libertarian,pnw.general,talk.politics.drugs,misc.ta
From: [email protected] (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government.
Begin>
— *** —
This measure would declare the state’s sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people”, and

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States
Constitution and no more; and

WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment
means that the federal government was created by the States
specifically to be an agent of the States; and

WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the
States; and

WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective
immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the United States Senate, each Senator and
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

— *** —


[email protected]


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (16)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 02:47:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills

JH> PJ> Nothing in any other medium up here either. I am surprised
JH> PJ> that the “Ultimatum” hasn’t picked up any interest either.

JH> Didn’t your sensei tell you?… don’t convey your intent
JH> until you are ready to act upon it, then let it be a
JH> surprise.

Instead convey the intention of a different action.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (20)
To: William Childress 20 May 94 02:24:10
Subject: 77 Scholars 1/3

WC> Good, then you’ll agree that the people who
WC> witnessed these miracles are in an excellent position to
WC> document them. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the
WC> N.T. penned by more than one individual? In fact, all the
WC> documents weren’t even penned in the same geographical
WC> location or during the very same period of time.
WC> Considering this fact, I submit that the harmony between
WC> them is nothing short of miraculous.

Considering not one word was written by an eye-witness the
repetition of stories by word of mouth is not exciting.

WC> As for you, are you bothered by the miracles more
WC> than the rigid moral standard? In essence, why one causes
WC> you the most concern?

I would point out the recounting of Timothy mentions no
miracles whatsoever. Of course that account is the oldest and
just missed mentioning them.

WC> Of course, I could make the very same claim
WC> regarding to the scientific calculations which establish
WC> the distances to the stars. I wonder if you accepted those
WC> without questioning their validity? If you did, then you
WC> might ask yourself why?

The method used is fully disclosed and verifiable and
repeatable. Not so for miracles.

WC> There are many people today who believe that Jesus
WC> Christ is God incarnate. I certainly believe it! In
WC> addition, I’ve never come across anything that compares to
WC> the wisdom revealed in the pages of the Bible.

He never made the claim. He said repeatedly he was the son
of man. Are you calling him a liar?

WC> Did anyone ever provide testimony that Elvis raised
WC> someone from the dead? Who watched Elvis heal a blind
WC> man? Did Elvis ever claim to be the Messiah? Did Elvis
WC> ever offer words of such profound wisdom that millions of
WC> people will frame their life around them in two thousand
WC> year’s time?

If we throw away all of the miracles did Yeshua ever claim
to be the Messiah? Specific citation of an explicit claim if
you would be so kind.

As to words of wisdom, Don’t be cruel to a heart that’s
true. Nothing Yeshua said is on a higher level than that.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (21)
To: Mike Timpe 12 May 94 22:47:10
Subject: A Trash Warrant

MT> I grew up surrounded by liberals in a small town called
MT> Cahokia, Il. As I’ve grown older and been away longer from
MT> my homestate, I’ve grown wiser. The system needs to change
MT> and that’s for the conservatives to get control of both
MT> state and federal congress.

I grew up in a moderate sized city called Cincinnati, Ohio.
The people there were so frustrated 40 years ago they were making
a joke the eventually the city would tax water. Little did they
realize every place would tax sewage which is the same thing
unless you have a swimming pool AND there is relief for pool
owners.

As to conservatives, sorry, they just want control of
different things.

Consider Libertarians. They want control of nothing and to
dismantle the present controls.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (27)
To: Virginia Cramer 20 May 94 02:32:10
Subject: AIDS Stats

VC> Why is it that people continually equate homosexuals with
VC> child molesters?

Why does NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)
march in all the gay parades? What other type of organization
would form around a criminal activity? Who but gays would permit
people advocating criminal child molestation to join in their
parade?

VC> Unless a person is both, they are not comparable. Most
VC> homosexuals have relationships with consenting adults.
VC> Child molesters, on the other hand, force themselves on
VC> innocent children, whether by aggressive or passive means.
VC> I accept homosexuality but I will never accept child
VC> molestation.

And the organizers of Gay Rights parades give them an
opportunity to promote criminal child molestation.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Any answer over three words is no.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (29)
To: Mark Whalen 20 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: ALL YOU NON-SMOKERS,я

MW> Hey, ditto! An intelligent message! Smokers are drug
MW> addicts. I was hooked for sixteen years. I have done some
MW> things in my life I am proud of, but nothing greater that
MW> escaping tobacco.

A 12 step program, right?


* RM 1.3 01261 * The worst you can do to a free man is kill him.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (31)
To: All 16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Snuck One Passed You
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994. The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights. Sounds reasonable does it not? Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
What does that mean really? For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people. Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women. There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states. Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small. And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
Of course it won’t go downhill overnight. At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs. There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote. I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing. The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
It happened. They got away with another one. What next?


* RM 1.3 01261 * The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (32)
To: Seth Esrig 14 May 94 17:26:10
Subject: ASSAULT WEAPON IDIOCY

SE> The right wingers state they want big-magazine semi-auto .223,
SE> .308s, military style weapons for the defense of their freedoms.
SE> But I agree with Kurt Saxon who states that every American need
SE> only be armed with a 12guage pump, .38 police special revolver,
SE> and a .30-06 bolt action rifle. I would add a .22LR bolt action
SE> target rifle to the list, perhaps a .22WMR hunting rifle, and
SE> replace the ’06 with a 30-30 lever for those who don’t like the
SE> recoil. The brands amd models that are the most rugged and
SE> reliable also happen to be among the cheapest, such as the
SE> Mossberg 500 shotguns or the Winchester Sportsman rifles. The
SE> arguments against the military style weapons are that they
SE> require much more practice time and ammo to learn to use
SE> properly, cost much more to buy, require more involved
SE> maintanance due to their semi-auto action, and are more likely to
SE> put the owner on the wrong side of the law merely by their
SE> ownership. They give a false sense of security to the idiots who
SE> believe in the “spray and pray” method of home/community defense.
SE> How many of America’s semi-auto owners have ever bothered to
SE> sight in a rifle, take it down and clean it, or managed to hit a
SE> paper target at 50 yards. Based on the subhuman intelligence of
SE> the urban gang-bangers who own most of them, I’d say not many.

Whom do you think you are lecturing?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (35)
To: Ann Ross 18 May 94 02:30:10
Subject: Best in 12 years on BBS’

AR> -=> Quoting Michael Shirley to Ann Ross <=-

AR> First, let me say in 12 years (off and on) I have
AR> less than half a dozen times saved or printed a
AR> message found in any echo. All three of your’s are
AR> printed and will be referred to oftimes. I
AR> sincerely wish to converse with you as your mind is
AR> extremely interesting.

That is like praying to god for justice.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (36)
To: Mike Ringgold 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

MR> MG> SV> Typical breeder reply.
MR> MG>
MR> MG> I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
MR> MG> breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

MR> That was meant to offend me. To me it is a compliment.
MR> Without breeders he would not be here. (nice thought)

Now you are trying to spread the blame.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Only gun grabbers and criminals will have guns.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (38)
To: Scot Vertullo 16 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

SV> > SV> Yup.
SV> >
SV> > SV> Typical breeder reply.
SV> >
SV> > I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
SV> > breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

SV> Damn right. I do have one question though… How come you
SV> “breeders” keep producing us homosexshuuls? 🙂

Don’t really know. The latest research suggests it is a
birth defect of some sort that results in incomplete development
of a parts of the brain.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (39)
To: All 15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

[paraphrased]

Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay’s buttocks
could be worth up to $500,000. They say he is sitting on a gold
mine.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Hillary talks with Eleanor Roosevelt.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (43)
To: Virag Andras 13 May 94 15:31:10
Subject: CLINTON’S SERB SCRIPT

VA> PS> MG> Bill Clinton’s statements to the Serbs are based upon
VA> PS> MG> Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
VA> PS> MG> “None shall pass!”

VA> Then why do they pass. All of ’em know the answers????????????

You need to see the money. They pass in the movie too but
the knight loses both arms and legs while claiming he hasn’t been
hurt and threatening to bite of a kneecap at the end.

VA> PS> The only thing that really hacks me off about this
VA> PS> country’s treatment of the Serbian situation is our
VA> PS> saber-rattling. We’ve made a few airstrikes, but we
VA> PS> haven’t done anything conclusive. Clinton needs to learn
VA> PS> that just standing behind a podium and making threats is
VA> PS> not going to stop ANYONE, and that if he’s really serious
VA> PS> about flattening the bad guys, he’d better quit talking
VA> PS> about it and just do it.

VA> MG> It is fun to kill people. Just ask Billie Jeff. As we
VA> MG> have no purpose or objective there (the UN may or may not)
VA> MG> we have no business being there.

VA> Look. I’m a Hungarian, I live here, right next to the
VA> serbs. Actually I’ve been a soldier, when the war started
VA> out. I’ve been in the ‘firsts to go if they come’ troops.
VA> And I didn’t question that the americans or UN has
VA> anything to do here, I just wanted them to stop what those
VA> stupid exYugos were (and are) doing. And I also thought
VA> that they shouldn’t just speak about the peace, not only
VA> plea for it, but do something for it. Why? Because I was
VA> afraid. You sure don’t know how weak is the Hungarian
VA> ‘army’ is. About 50% of the military things we have, has
VA> seen the WWII. The rest is also made of crap. The time
VA> when I was a soldier we were 3, 4 times weaker than the
VA> exYugoslavian army. I know that that’s ‘none of America’s
VA> business’ but just think about this: those people are just
VA> the same as the old Scottish people. ‘I hate You, I will
VA> kill You, rape Your women, kill Your children, but look
VA> there comes the British, let’s go kick them in the
VA> butt…’. And they go, kill the British, and keep on
VA> killing each other. Does it makes sense? Now don’t forget,
VA> that these people are Slavonic. And the Slavonic people
VA> are really mad. There’s something bad with their head.
VA> They just don’t think and do anything, following the
VA> logical way. And actually I am not the only one to be
VA> afraid, and counting on Your help. I don’t know how many
VA> civilian had been killed by the US army, but I think they
VA> made much more less, then the serbs themselves. And I
VA> think, that destroying military targets is not bad. They
VA> should do it more faster. Faster and more faster. You know
VA> how high the Hungarian (and europian), crime level became
VA> since the breaking out of the war? Almost every second
VA> crime is related to a former Yugoslavian citizen…

I am not sure where you are going with all of this but I
will point out we have not even been asked by the people under
attack to help. I do not know if they have asked anyone but
certainly they have not asked us. If they asked the UN they
should have known better.

If you are concerned about being attacked the US can supply
you with whatever you need and arrange long term financing for
you. All you have to do is ask.

However if you are saying you folks are not willing to make
the effort to defend yourselves I would suggest you learn to
speak Yugoslavian.

VA> PS> However, I am not in support of the United States alone
VA> PS> getting involved. The UN was founded to put a stop to
VA> PS> the kind of mess that’s going on in what used to be
VA> PS> Yugoslavia, and they need to go in there and do it,
VA> PS> instead of the US playing the cowboy in the white hat.

VA> But they don’t do anything, just walking around, and when
VA> one of them gets killed, saying ‘tsk, tsk, bad boy, don’t
VA> you do it again please, or I’ll put you in the corner,
VA> OK?’, and keep talking…

That is what the UN is all about, nothing.

VA> MG> I am not aware the UN has an issue in Bosnia either. I
VA> MG> know of no place in its charter where it says there shall
VA> MG> be no war. The UN and the US for that matter screwed up
VA> MG> royally recognizing all the new little countries before the
VA> MG> dust had settled. Now they have not the wisdom to
VA> MG> recognize a diplomatic error.

VA> But someone must stop those crazy people, don’t you
VA> think???

Are you saying you want to buy modern weapons to do it?

They have not been stopped for the last 400 years. They
appear to schedule a slaughter like this every seventy years or
so. I have looked into this. I was exchanging messages with
someone in Split on the subject. The issues involved are simply
“too hard” to choose a side. Unfortunately the US and the UN
chose a side against the current losers with the arms embargo.


* RM 1.3 01261 * 6 dead, 22 wounded, a law against guns. Some excuse.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (44)
To: All 18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

United States Constitution

Article I

Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and
paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he
!!!!!

was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority
!!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time;
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.

=====

It is a fine line between “shall be” and “already be” an
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United
States. All attorneys are officers of the court and under their
own jurisdiction.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Bill Clinton is to Roger Rabbit as Hil Clinton is to ..
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (45)
To: All 20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?

Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski? Robert Bennett is
negotiating with Bill Clinton’s staff to reduce the charges
against Rostinkowski. Am I the only person who sees a problem
with this?


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Right of the Individual to be an Individual.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (46)
To: Jackie Bradbury 15 May 94 02:59:10
Subject: Constitutional admenment

JB> I think the AG should be elected the same as the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez, but independently and by popular vote only (no
JB> electoral college). That way, you get a real independent
JB> AG who may be from a different party than the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez.

But who is responsible to the president unless you are
suggesting there be the creation of a fourth branch of
government.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (47)
To: All 13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission

I have been remiss over the last year or so.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * “Safer guns and safer bullets.” New Clinton Policy
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (55)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: Different strokes

JB> MG> JB> But, I’ll just add that I’m a short little squirt myself.
JB> MG> JB> And men’s ankles (and knees) don’t get _me_ all hot and
JB> MG> JB> bothered… 🙂
JB> MG>
JB> MG> What does?

JB> Now, Matt, I told you a long time ago… lots of money! 🙂

Libertarian!

JB> Hubby does… although he isn’t my “type”.

Married beneath yourself obviously.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Reinventing government does not mean pulling it out of a hat
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (56)
To: Bert Byfield 15 May 94 03:03:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

BB> Clinton ADMITTED he was responsible for the murders? When
BB> does he go to trial? Isn’t this America where we are all
BB> equal under the law? Charlie Manson killed less than ten
BB> people. Clinton killed 90. Clinton should have his day in
BB> court. Or is murder legal for the government now?

Yes,


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (57)
To: Gary Steinweg 15 May 94 03:04:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

GS> To be really fair, he didn’t actually kill those 80 people,
GS> he just raced with Reno to take responsibility, then
GS> decided that ladies first was a polite policy. He did feel
GS> their pain, though.

Actually after Reno taking responsibility and him waffling
Limbaugh berated him for an entire day to stand up and take
responsibility. He did the next day.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (58)
To: Martin Eble 15 May 94 03:05:10
Subject: environment

ME> AH> Are regulations designed to protect the environment too
ME> AH> strict, too lenient, or just right? *adh*

ME> Depends on whether you’re

ME> a snail darter

ME> a sucking insect

ME> or a taxpayer.

So now you hold there is a difference between a snail
darter, a politician and a taxpayer.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (69)
To: All 18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Florida HRS Harassment Starts

In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved. The
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.
This was a he. His name was not obtained; he offered no
identification.

The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms.
Giwer’s aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the
property for not having a current tag. This is not illegal
within the City of Dunedin. Both her and her aunt live at the
house. No notification was ever delivered to the house.

The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was
responsible. The party was unaware Ms. Giwer’s mother is also an
owner of the property. When informed of this he suggested if he
looked into the mother’s file he would find a similar
notification. He was unable to account for the coincidence he
was involved in.

His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow
the vehicle. He was given no such agreement. He was informed
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own
decision and would be his responsibility.

Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared
incompetant aunt. I can only assume it was a fruitful
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Constitution is not a technicality.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (70)
To: All 10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust
at the idea of mercenaries known. Of course we can write our
elected representatives — we can also piss up a rope and
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our
postal system.

The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of
America in their regard.

A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in
Washington DC. If you are one of those who believes we learned
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more
direct approach is desirable.

First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong. I have
not looked into the postage nor its form of government — so that
it gets to the right person (I don’t think Chief of Police will
cut it.)

Second is the following. This is the highest ranking Hong
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting
such letters to the right person — implying she did not know the
right person either — but I trust her suggestion.

I am composing a letter that will request their police be
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in
combat. (Lay on the gory descriptions here. If anyone has any
good ones please post them.)

I will also include a reference that I am opposing the
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters
to Congress.

As reference for any letter you might be interested in
writing here is the citation of interest.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

A DECLARATION

By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

He is at this time, transporting large Armies of
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation,
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (74)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:17:10
Subject: gun-control

GR> The assault rifles being banned are cheap and concealable.

You are very stupid.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (79)
To: All 13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!

*********** Original To: STEVEN GLADIN
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0106 – Civil Liber-F
———————————————————————–

SG> Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational
SG> fears of people that he does not know, that George should
SG> be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if
SG> his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.
SG> In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

Speaking of Florida’s infamous Baker Act it is ten days from
the following letter.

To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower
of another woman. We have on child together, that being our only
serious connection. There is NO exaggeration in anything that
follows. This letter was mailed on the date indicated. There
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you think health care is expensive now, wait til its free
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (81)
To: All 17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

$1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless
in the US.

In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless
in the US.

On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are
600,000 homeless in the US.

It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the
largest number of homeless possible.

3000000 | X
| X
2700000 | X
| X
2400000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
2100000 | X
| X
1800000 | X
| X
1500000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
1200000 | X
| X
900000 | X
| X
600000 |—————-X—————————————X-
| X X
300000 | X X
| X X
0 | X X X
|———————————————————-

S C C
n e i
i n s
d s n
e u e
r s r
o
1 B s
9 u
8 r 1
7 e 9

a 9
u 4

The swings are enormous. The only difference between
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different
asses. Of course the Cisneros’ ass hasn’t been burned yet.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I do not have an ego. I am right.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (89)
To: Bill Bauer 15 May 94 03:16:10
Subject: Important numbers

BB> … *** BILL BAUER ***
BB> … *** MODERATOR ***
BB> … *** RIGHTS_RONGS ECHO ***

Speaking of which my sysop is also a REC or some such and
tells me you have not petitioned for backbone status.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (94)
To: All 16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is
false or misleading. I have cut it down to the relevant
essentials. Naomi Giwer is my first wife. As of this date I
have received no response to this second letter.

This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like
proceedings in the State of Florida. It is noted the same agency
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with
infected sores only two months ago.

I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the
finding public if there were any waves caused. To paraphrase, it
is in her best interests this be kept private. That implies
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they
would. It was a lovely threat.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.

As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * Reconcile and Reconcile are clintonyms.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (100)
To: All 12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism. If
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please
join me there.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:23:10
Subject: Memorial Day

GR> And they certainly aren’t against soldiers. The
GR> Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded to
GR> homosexuals.

How many? By name.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: William Morgan 19 May 94 02:25:10
Subject: Michael Fay Caning

WM> And every day, more and more people are learning why
WM> Charles Bronson’s “Death Wish” movies were so popular!
WM> Remember, an armed society is a polite society.

And it is the responsibility of good citizens to create good
criminals.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: All 10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper’s demotion captures attention of FBI

The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.

In an article in the April-May edition of the American
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited “over a
hundred” sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of
Arkansas. His remarks corroborated the accounts of other
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

Trooper Brown’s transfer was to have taken effect yesterday,
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

“He is upset, no question about that,” said his attorney,
Justin Thornton of Washington.

Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said: “I don’t think that is
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view.”

Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state. He
said yesterday he is “distressed, to be quite candid and
conservative. I am not happy at all.”

The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has
had with the FBI. As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

Once described by his commander as the “best investigator I
have,” Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.
“I haven’t been in uniform in nearly 15 years,” he said. “This
is incredible.”

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary’s Cattle

In this week’s New Republic, James Glassman examined first
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s trading record with Refco and
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating,
breaking margin calls.

“She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a
well-off businessman who … was in almost precisely the same
situation as Rodham Clinton,” Mr. Glassman reported.

During the time of Mrs. Clinton’s celebrated trading, Refco
“sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than
$100,000 — ‘even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I
was earning a six-figure income.’

“[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was
earning a lot less. Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:
‘How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Beware the low profit.” Giwer 1:1
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (109)
To: All 20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation.
in California found that when controlled for variables such as
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on
death row for killing blacks.

Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

When he considered the number of victims, whether the
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (110)
To: All 20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed

Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months
because of their potentially “embarassing” content.

Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp.
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual,
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they “violate their
legal obligation to run over the documents” under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said
yesterday.

“Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health
effects from passive smoking,” Jane G. Gravelle, senior
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found
“some uncertainties” in the EPA’s estimate of the numbers of
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

“I don’t want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect … an uncertain effect
… and it’s hard to detect small things,” Ms. Gravelle said in
an interview after the Senate hearing.

Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly
charged that the EPA’s findings were based on flawed science and
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after
Ms. Gravelle’s testimony.

But Ms. Gravelle said her research group’s conclusion that
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant
health risks from passive smoking “flows from an analysis of the
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology
of disease-causing agents.”

Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking
could have been as low as three per year.

Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking,
the congressional researcher noted.

Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the
effects of environmental smoke — using the amounts of a tobacco
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine — showed the effect
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day. Such
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker
deaths, she said.

This method “assumed a linear relationship between the
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure,” she said. But there is
“some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case
of lung cancer,” she said.

In that case, the “estimate would be only three people
rather than 600 people,” she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents,
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

{Enough said– mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (111)
To: All 20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed

The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat’s first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Yassar Arafat has yet to name all
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the
Gaza and Jericho government.

The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei
Karta sect — the name means Guardians of the City — a group
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism
and the state of Israel.

Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem’s
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far
this time. Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

“He’s going to hurt bad,” said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

{An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch. His beard is
approximately 3 inches long. He is going to hurt. — mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (112)
To: All 20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel’s smoking ban excludes few public places

A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco
shops and prisons.

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the “most important
legislation in disease prevention in years” and cited the
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

Ironically, the subcommittee’s passage of the bill came one
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

{Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number. —
mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Life’s purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (113)
To: All 21 May 94 15:41:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 17 May 1994

Whitewater-papers suit to get earlier court dates

Rep. Jim Leach, who has unsuccessfully sought
Whitewater-Madison documents for five months, and lawyers for two
federal agencies he sued for the records yesterday agreed to
accelerated court dates for legal arguments in the case.

Mr. Leading, the leading proponent in Congress for hearings
in the Whitewater-Madison affair, said in a lawsuit filed last
Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Washington that efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed since December
because of their potentially embarrassing” content.

Fiske OKs review of Treasury papers

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. said yesterday he has
given the White House permission to review Treasury Department
documents detailing contacts with regulators over the
Whitewater-Madison affair.

Mr. Fiske described the action as a “limited step” to allow
the White House to prepare for congressional hearings …

{I presume this is why Clinton liked Fiske. — mg}

Supreme Court rules on guns and garbage

The Supreme Court played referee yesterday in
jurisdictional disputes over garbage, guns and Ellis Island

For people convicted of serious federal crimes, only the
federal government can restore their constitutional right to
possess guns, the high court said.

{{{{{Can ANYONE find this? It would be a finding in favor of the
2nd amendment even though it does take away states powers in
civil rights. — mg}}}}}

INSIDE Politics

Perk coincidence

An airport official told Roll Call it is “just
coincidental,” but the wording of the signs designating reserved
airport parking for Congress has been changed to remove
references to members.

Until three weeks ago the signs read “Reserved Parking/
Supreme Court Justices/ Members of Congress/ Diplomatic Corps.”
Now they say only “Restricted Parking/ Authorized Users Only,”
says Roll Call.

The change went into effect April 25, five days after the
Senate defeated a warmly contested measure calling for the
removal of the reserved lots.

Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and leader of the
effort to remove the lots, called the sign change a “stupid”
effort to “deceive the public.”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “The media is biased toward the left.” Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (115)
To: All 24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

What Democracy Is
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote. As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote. I would suggest that
is garbage.
Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends. A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved. Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever. If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever. If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner. Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards. What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result. Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work. What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting. It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote. Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
I find myself arguing in the negative at this point. My
points are

1) Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

2) The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus. I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written. I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
A long discussion and more than a little digression. The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people. It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources. It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country — you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more. When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%. The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (116)
To: All 19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Origins of Morality
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research. What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them. Morality is another.
We know we evolved from social animals. Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups. It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages. We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth. A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
A moral code is simply what permits social life. The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language. All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans. We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human. We do work to save them from it.
The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system. They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder. It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class. The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language. Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point? I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality. I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language. I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior. In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey. The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following. The use of force is inherently evil.
Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force. It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
Government has become out codification of our moral
standards. It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people. What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil. It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
There is the key concept I have been building toward. Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil. (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil. Honest thought does
not work that way.) We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance. Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the “good” any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for “his own
good.”
Notice that this is nothing new. But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments. We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified. We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case. Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good. The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Health Insurance is expensive now. Wait until it is free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (117)
To: Charles Hill 13 May 94 04:02:10
Subject: PGP in progress

CH> The pertinent Rule of the Conference saith thusly:

CH> “PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) ™ and other encryption
CH> systems: Entire messages ought not to be encoded; however,
CH> until such time as FidoNet may choose to establish
CH> contravening policy in this matter, exchange of public keys
CH> as part of a legitimate message shall be permitted.”
CH>
CH> This particular Rule specifically permits public keys, and
CH> does not really bar encrypted messages. The original
CH> intent of the author (don’t you wish these Constitutional
CH> scholars had it so easy?) was to keep people from
CH> encrypting everything they posted in the conference, since
CH> it adds a lot of unreadable stuff to everybody’s mail
CH> packets. Clearly this is not your intention, so I see no
CH> reason to object to it.
CH>
CH> So mote it be….cgh

If I may add…

Giwerworld on Lucifernet reaches every place in the country
for a short LD cost at worst. This conference has no rules,
period, and encrypted messages are not within the notice of the
deity in charge of the conference, namely me. Jimmy Pearson will
confirm upon request.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (118)
To: William Childress 13 May 94 15:46:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION

WC> MG> Are you saying Judas hung himself by this feet so that he
WC> MG> could fall “headlong”? Was he an early bungee jumper?

WC> I take it that you are indicating that the events
WC> listed are impossible!

I was pointing out there are contradictory, infallible
statements in the recountings.

However, I can’t count how many
WC> times people have offered similar arguments regarding
WC> biblical documentation. Regardless, a bright individual
WC> ought to be able to come up with at least a single
WC> plausible solution to the dilemma. In other words, toss
WC> your prejudice aside for a minute, and let’s say that both
WC> passages are correct. After all, this admission on your
WC> part would not substantiate the whole Bible. Therefore,
WC> what can you come up with to satisfy both descriptions?

Bungee jumping. Maybe Yeshua gave him the bungee cords. He
was god wasn’t he?

WC> Consider this though, if you fail to offer any solution,
WC> then anyone posting a plausible solution will cause others
WC> to seriously question your intellect. And, why should
WC> people even consider future arguments posted by an
WC> intellectually impaired individual?

You are the one who has to support infallible
contradictions, not me. I could care less.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (125)
To: Ken Pangborn 18 May 94 17:09:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> KP> Yes, as we have seen, we have the technological
KP> KP> ability to destroy the planet and all life on it. Do we have
KP> KP> the developed wisdom to survive it?

KP> LT> We cannot destroy this planet. It can destroy us, however.

KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> uninhabitable.

Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
fault.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (127)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 02:31:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> LT>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear weapons in the
KP> LT>KP> arsenals were to be detonated at roughly the same time, the
KP> LT>KP> Earth would become a second sun. I would think that having an
KP> LT>KP> ambient temperature of about 140,000 degrees Celsius would
KP> LT>KP> make the planet roughly uninhabitable.

KP> LT> The secret woid is “theory”

KP> Pretty solid theiry Linda. Want to put it to the
KP> test? Seems like our President does…..

Pretty solid crap although not in line for solid waste
disposal.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (130)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 15:22:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> MG>KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> MG>KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> MG>KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> MG>KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> MG>KP> uninhabitable.

KP> MG> Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
KP> MG>fault.

KP> Again Matt, are you willing to put it to the test?
KP> As I recall, at one point the Soviets had something like
KP> 37,000 nukes of 50 MT or more, not counting MIRV capacity.
KP> And the U.S. had some greater number. I’m not sure what
KP> 70,000+ 50mt bombs would do if detonated simultaneously. I
KP> imagine they might make a little bit of a mess. You of
KP> course would be out with your Raybans and surfer suit!

You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have to
recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature increase
be apparent.

We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
math leading to the prediction.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (133)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 01:58:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have
KP> MG> to recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
KP> MG> mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature
KP> MG> increase be apparent.

KP> Try reading Carl Sagan’s writings on nuclear winter
KP> and the nuclear armageddon. He and some of the others make
KP> a compelling case for nuclear anihilation.

Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
crap?

He couldn’t get Kuwait right but of course he can get
nuclear winter right. You have a touching faith in a TV
personality.

KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
theory I expected nothing better from you.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (135)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 13:34:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
KP> MG>his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
KP> MG>He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
KP> MG>crap?

KP> Matt you have a way about you.

So does Sagan, wrong.

KP> MG>KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> MG>KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

KP> MG> As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
KP> MG>theory I expected nothing better from you.

KP> As usual, Giwer deals with the issues.

Please prove me wrong and present the theory so we can go
over the math.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (136)
To: Michael Funk 10 May 94 21:01:10
Subject: SCHINDLER’S LIST

MF> MG> So if you have three hours and the cash to drop on what is
MF> MG> undoubtedly the worst movie every to be given an academy
MF> MG> award don’t miss it.

MF> Nope, you weren’t the last to see the movei…I will
MF> be!..And now I Think I won’t even do that if this movie is
MF> that bad. I have the book, so I’ll read it instead.

I have not read the book. Remember I am commenting upon it
as a movie. If you know everything around it you may enjoy it.
But this is like an event that happened in the course of the
Chinese civil war of 1859 (?) without every giving you one word
about that war or any context within it.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (137)
To: All 19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise

AA> “Choosing to Die”
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42; Katel, Peter
AA> Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and
AA> regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS
AA> sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had
AA> another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own
AA> veins. Delgado is one of a group of young people known as
AA> frikis–“freaks” or “rockers”–who claim that they
AA> intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting
AA> themselves with tainted blood. Various sources have named
AA> more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they
AA> injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died. According
AA> to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.
AA> A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is
AA> possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV
AA> from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS
AA> among the group indicates that their explanation is a
AA> truthful one. “There is no other explanation for someone
AA> dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection,”
AA> he says. Cuba’s policy at the time was to quarantine
AA> anyone testing HIV-positive. For the frikis, life in an
AA> AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air
AA> conditioning, an absence of police–luxuries the average
AA> Cuban did not enjoy.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (153)
To: All 23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Reverse Vigilance
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance. The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance. Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability. Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges. In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press. Criticism is generally
limited to political lines. It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power. It is the prize of
the political process. And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies. “Everyone knows” the government is in control of every
thing. It is a simple belief to play upon.
The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail. There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out “it wasn’t this summer but it is
coming” sitting right there.
Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption? Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour. Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail? Haven’t you
always wondered why the most important mail is late? Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and “everyone knows” how many
employees they have.
Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns. Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill. This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better. All that would be needed
would be the working title.
The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars. The people already have little confidence
in the government. There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack. The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort. After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack. And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The most banned user in the known universe.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (156)
To: All 15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy! 01

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: SIMON JESTER
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/09/94 – 0002477
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Picked this up while cruising the “highway”, and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd. All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there’s a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do.

By Brock N. Meeks

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: “send
clipper.index”. – The Editors of WIRED]

If privacy isn’t already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it’s about to be. The panel members didn’t try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
“front load” the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream.

But these are tools the “good guys” said would be used only to catch the “bad
guys.” Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement’s proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX.

There’s just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, “Right now most
law enforcement personnel don’t have any idea what the NII is,” this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel.

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would “help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes.” Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney’s office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies.

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press.

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters’ deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot’s NAFTA-inspired “giant sucking sound.” This was the dull
“thump” of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender.

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as “proactive”
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
“have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now,” Walker said.

For today’s wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to “no big difference,” he said. Besides, “it
would save time and money.”

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. “Frankly, I don’t see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority],” he said. With a straight
face.

It’s Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn’t mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, “it only means we’ll catch fewer criminals,” he said.

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of “just putting the
bad guys in jail,” as James Settle, head of the FBI’s National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy.

“Because of law enforcement’s concerns (regarding digital technologies), we’re
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities,” Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency “is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network.”

Go ahead. Read it again.

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes.

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls “unprecedented”
is that – if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way – the design of the national telecommunications
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (157)
To: Ken Wiebe 18 May 94 03:25:10
Subject: Socialists

KW> JH> Gimme a break! It is the same stupid “love it or leave
KW> JH> it”/”like it or lump it” philosophy any way you look at
KW> JH> it.

KW> As an anti-smoke legislation supporter, I don’t really
KW> expect you to understand the difference. Suffice it to say
KW> that restaurants are a dime a dozen, and very common, free
KW> countries are rare as hen’s teeth.

Unfortunately the US is a Fascist country that assumes the
right to control free enterprise soley on the grounds that it is
free.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Si vis pacem, parabellum.” If you would see peace, prepare
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (158)
To: Scot Vertullo 20 May 94 18:32:10
Subject: Stockpiling guns…яяяяяя

SV> > If you were confining the subject to weapons, then
SV> > you should have said stockpiling weapons, and not simply
SV> > stockpiling.

SV> I did.

Which makes no difference. They were in their home. They
had a right to own guns and a right to be in the gun business.
Do you have an objection to that?

SV> > Are you in the belief that churches should not be
SV> > in the business of buying, and selling weapons, because
SV> > that is how it sounds.

SV> Bingo! 🙂 Why should they? Unless the definition has
SV> changed, I believe that churches exist to save souls; not
SV> deal with weapons of death.

Is this part of the definition that you would impose upon all
religions or would you permit people to hold alternate religious
convictions? What would be your means of enforcement?


* RM 1.3 01261 * None of my opinions are humble.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (159)
To: Dave Hankins 10 May 94 21:47:10
Subject: Subsidies

DH> If you would, throw up your public key on GiwerWorld
DH> for me. I have some info you may be very interested
DH> in. I believe you already have mine… Thanks.

Should be there soon.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (160)
To: All 24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

The Federal Reserve
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money. I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand. At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand. Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline. What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs. The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB. I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money. We all have done one or the other over the years. That
is all that is happening. What is of interest is how it is
happening.
When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody’s rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate. This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk. It is nothing you don’t know about.
The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market. A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
Of course you have. If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate. The only difference is the way it
is presented. One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property. If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company. You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income. Do not kid yourself it is anything else. You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years. If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income. Income for the government equals
revenues. Revenues equals taxes.
In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.
So what?
OK here is a “furrinstance.” Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income? It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate. That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone’s opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings. I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner. And thus the crux of
the issue.
Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
A long question, too long. The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs. It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be. That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power. I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country. Perhaps I missed
something. I am open to correction.
The world has gotten more complicated? Fine. Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB. Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB. And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
Certainly it would be a rocky transition. The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power. They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation. If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them. We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in “managing” our economy to do it.
It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression. That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (169)
To: All 23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Twilight of Liberty
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world. Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing. There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution. Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals. Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause. Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government. Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
Should we lose it can it arise again? The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around. Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior. That is always a possibility. All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy. Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government. Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
I consider these valid questions. I hold they can only be
answered by testing. This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed. The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government. This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits. We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty. We now elect our “monarchs” for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life. That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits. The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes. Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it. A
monarchy can be quite as limited. The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta. Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers. It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea. And the opportunity took a
revolution.
A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question. It is only a matter of
timing. It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life. As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
We are coming to the time of making that choice.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Dr. Gruber, get a life.” Dr. Herbert West
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 03:41:10
Subject: Ultimatum

JH> If she can turn out 2 million in uniform and armed she will
JH> come thru OK. At least her cause probably will; she likely
JH> will be killed under strange circumstances. If she turns
JH> out only 20,000 then we are all in dead serious effing deep
JH> trouble.

2 million. The entire metro area counting every one has
about that many. So she has a temporary doubling of the local
population. I suggest they bring shovels and toilet paper as
there are not enough toilet facilities for that many.

20,000 people, 5000 cars. Where do they park?

Any reasonable number of people to try to do this is can be
handled by the DC police.

JH> Sensei say, flee if you can the confrontation you are not
JH> sure you can win. If we declare “war” against the
JH> bastards, we better be ready to back it up with everything
JH> we have. The people are not mad enough yet to do that IMO.
JH> Despite all those “we’re right behind you, Linda” voices,
JH> she would be well advised to keep track of how far behind
JH> her they really are. Bring binoculars.

More realistically a guerrilla war is the only one
possible. Shut down all federal offices except social security
and the post office — there is no need to make enemies, besides
the cash flow is needed. Every state or local agency that
cooperates with the Feds is shut down.

The last thing to do is put an armed force in the field.
That is saved until we have the strength to win.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Shoot a gun grabber today!
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Phillip Jones 15 May 94 03:56:10
Subject: ultimatum

PJ> BB> Hmmm, it appears to me that you haven’t been reading the
PJ> BB> mail the last couple of days in some of the other echos. It
PJ> BB> would appear that the interest in this subject has indeed
PJ> BB> picked up quite a bit of interest.

PJ> This is the only “general interest” echo I read regularly.
PJ> But I do read 2-3 different newspapers a day, and listen to
PJ> several news broadcasts, and haven’t heardb a peep out of
PJ> those media.

Have you mailed them hard copies?


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:52:10
Subject: Unreasonable Searches

JB> MG> I got a little bit more on it. It is apparently
JB> MG> contained in some bill in Congress. I have not found which
JB> MG> bill or where it stands. All info shared.

JB> Keep us informed – after finals (next week), I’m gonna be
JB> so campaign oriented I won’t be thinking of much else.

It is now next week. Are you still alive or simply in
terminal exhaustion. It is unfortunate we have adopted a boot
camp form of education instead of an apprenticeship form.

JB> MG> Lose me now or lose me later. We are passed the point
JB> MG> where there is any hope of turning this around. The only
JB> MG> hope left is that enough people will express their
JB> MG> determination regarding such matters and scare the gov
JB> MG> off.

JB> Y’know, hubby & I are convinced, due to evidence here, on
JB> talk radio, and from just regular folks we meet, we are now
JB> intering a period of “low level panic”. Folks are getting
JB> scared, Matt – and mad. Slowly, surely. One by one.

That is my observation exactly.

JB> MG> Unfortunately that is only putting off the inevitable.

JB> Well, I meant be careful in a smart, Matt Giwer way, not a
JB> stupid Linda Thompson way. I.E., if you’re gonna do it,
JB> stay around long enough to do it right – one HK cop does
JB> not equal one MG, know what I mean?

Don’t worry about that. In a direct confrontation I am
known to be smart in spite of the most devout intentions. I am
working on what to shut down and what to leave operating in the
course of a revolution. For example all (federal) government
buildings are shut down. The IRS is shut down. Social Security
is left open as is the Post Office to deliver the checks.

“A bomb threat a day keeps the workers away.” And relaxes
security to the point where a real bomb goes off. The revolution
will take years, not weeks. 365 bomb threats will make any
security force yawn.

JB> MG> They are up against a disarm populace courtesy of the
JB> MG> British. They have a shock in store for them.

JB> No kidding. BTW: heard today that Bobbies are going to
JB> carry guns in London. Rising crime rate, y’know – is that
JB> _possible_ without guns? (sarcasm intended)

Of course it is foreign, American style violence so it not
really their fault. Obviously they pacified Ireland 400 years
ago.

JB> MG> I will not excuse people failing to think. And from
JB> MG> 2.5 years of driving a cab and plenty of black passenger
JB> MG> who requested me it is only the black “leaders” who are
JB> MG> saying these things. I met a few taking advantage of the
JB> MG> system. Most you could not tell from Walter Williams. And
JB> MG> none of the above had anything good to say about the
JB> MG> “leaders.”

JB> Agreed. We have a black man in the lead for the Republican
JB> nomination in our Congressional District. I’m interested
JB> to see how this turns out.

In 1988 in Virginia I voted for two blacks and that includes
the ex-governor. Wilder talked a good case until he got in
office. (Partisan politics in Virginia [had] little to do with
national party affiliation at the time.)

JB> MG> Between elections get a hack license and meet them.

JB> Y’know, I’ve thought about doing that, but to be honest,
JB> I’d be scared to.

A little street smarts and the company will help you out.
It is the 8th most dangerous profession but that really isn’t all
that high.

JB> MG> JB> I’m not so sure that’s a total loss yet. Give me a couple
JB> MG> JB> more election cycles to decide for sure. But I will agree
JB> MG> JB> that it looks bad.
JB> MG>
JB> MG> I have already given it a couple more election cycles.
JB> MG> You are not required to be an old fart cynic like me. You
JB> MG> are simply invited to name one election that has changed
JB> MG> anything.

JB> Um, Thomas Jefferson’s? Between TJ and Burr? Lincoln’s,
JB> maybe?

Kennedy/Goldwater was my first.

JB> Other than that, no, not one single one – it’s a cumulative
JB> thing that makes for positive change. That’s another
JB> reason why I’m a manager and not a candidate. It’s better
JB> to get 8 good folks or more elected than just myself.

If everyone waits as long as I have they will be like me,
too old to go into the field and the those that are young enough
will still be waiting.

JB> MG> So far as I am aware there are only two Libertarian
JB> MG> candidates in the Tampa Bay area. I don’t see a difference
JB> MG> between real and candidate. Viable? I expect to find out
JB> MG> soon.

JB> Research will tell. I mean a “real” candidate as in “I
JB> want to win”.

Three weeks between an offer to make colorful handouts and
zero response. You can’t argue free but he did not accept the
offer.

JB> MG> There always are. I have a set of political GIFs that
JB> MG> I am looking for distribution cites for. Even in my humble
JB> MG> opinion

JB> Get in touch with Ron Krickenberger of the National LP;
JB> he’s in Atlanta – he’s the LP campaign director. He may be
JB> able to use it or connect you with folks who can.

Will look for him. Do you have a BBS number? I am
surprised I have not heard of him as I am as well connected
BBS-wise in Atlanta as I am in this area.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: George Rudzinski 13 May 94 04:12:10
Subject: Waco

GR> DB> Changing the name? They are flashbangs, that’s all.

GR> JW> They were originally called “stun grenades”.

GR> Doesn’t much matter what you call them, they are still
GR> flashbangs.
GR>
GR> If the BATF went into that compound wanting to kill people,
GR> flashbangs wouldn’t be the grenade of choice.

Nor does it matter what you wish to call them. The
certainly rupture ear drums. They certainly can induce fatal
grand mal seizures. They certainly are intended to disorient
people, maybe enough to think the person throwing them means them
harm.

When you are on the receiving or when you are willing to
respond as though they had achieved their intended purpose you
will have something legitimate to post.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (174)
To: All 11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0001234
********** On: GUNTALK – 0012 – GENPOL
———————————————————————–

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board. The
last message said, “I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid.” I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news. A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists —
men, women, and children. I wondered, “What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?”

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco. I don’t like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what. The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh. And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever. Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson! Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion. Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home. Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War. Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn’t have. The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him. Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them. He was shot at. He ducked back
inside. A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him. This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre. How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk? I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today. There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children. The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them. Is this justice? Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle. It was deliberate. It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI. It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States. It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?

* SLMR 2.1a * Don’t gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
— MMGR v3.52
* GUN-TALK GENeral POLitics Conference


* RM 1.3 01261 * The tuna doesn’t taste the same without the dolphin.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (177)
To: Ann Ross 19 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: What makes a SIN a Sяяяяя

AR> Da> —–[ First Scot Vertullo Said: ]—–
AR> > As long as I’m not harming others then I have a right to do it. I
AR> > repeat: “If you don’t *like* my homosexuality, tough…adjust to it.”
AR> Da> —–[ My Reply: ]—–

AR> Da> You don’t have a right to spout off about how you are a
AR> Da> homosexual, just as I don’t have the right to spout off
AR> Da> about how I’m straight.

AR> The Constitution gives you both freedom of speech. Learn to
AR> live with it because you canNOT change it.

As you have been corrected before, the Constitution GIVES us
nothing. It prevents the government from infringing pre-existing
rights. That is why it is phrased as it is. But you know that.
You simply enjoy playing the asshole.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0648 – USA Politic-U
———————————————————————–

[I came across the tail end of something like this and never
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation. I later
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I
was was not arrested.

When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for
I was not for I was not on trial. [seizure of the property of
the innocent]

When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I
was not accused. [imprisonment for being a material witness]

When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge. [Civil rights
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide. [Chicago]

When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.

When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun. [Brady and Feinstein bills]

When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.
[government approved religions]

=====

Many other examples could be presented.

The time is nigh.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Constitution is not perfect. It is better than what we have
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (208)
To: All 24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0250 – FN-FSPEECH
———————————————————————–

12-BBS

A new echo is seeking backbone status. This echo is
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their
BBSing habit. Please request your Sysop to carry it today.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I am Ozyharriet, Family of Families
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: All 25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: HARRY WANG
* STOLEN * To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/13/94 – 0003631
********** On: T-RECALL – 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing! Call HCI’s toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible. Since it’s an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call–about 20 cents per minute–80 cents per full length call. Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won’t send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste. 1000, Washington, DC
20005. Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents…you get the idea. Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y’know…)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

– Pedit Ver 1.9a

— ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
* MKNet * Zylink BBS, St. Paul, MN (612)776-1502


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (225)
To: All 24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: SOFTWARE
*********** Conf: 0018 – S-DEATH&TAXES
———————————————————————–

The Secret Drug Profile
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination. They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.
They were infallible in their use of this technique. It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades. It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead. We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case. We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the “expert” making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
At least they made their “profile” public.
Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released. The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts. Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
This profile is for drug traffickers. It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets. It has been used against multi-millionaires. It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen. It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage. It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement. In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic. If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
“drug security forces” if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known. After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
We are not as “honest” as the Nazis. We keep our profile a
secret. It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
Of course we must ask if we are any better.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (226)
To: All 24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

David L. Hale, now a government witness in the
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law
enforcement sources.

Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal’s now-defunct Madison Guaranty
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in
1986 to Mr. McDougal’s wife, Susan, the sources said.

Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved. He said
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because
her being a woman would make approval easier.

At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton’s and
Mr. McDougal’s ownership of the Whitewater venture.

Hale’s attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved
in the loan — Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client — knew
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan. He said it
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a
woman as the nominee borrower.

The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty
last month to two counts of defrauding the government. … He
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make
additional loans.

Leach: RTC may fire prober

Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government’s chief
investigator is about to lose her job.

Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

Mrs. Lewis’ belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach
crimes may have been committed.


* RM 1.3 01261 * To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (244)
To: All 24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: AUTODOC
*********** Conf: 0109 – Debate
———————————————————————–

I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

Pardon me. Don’t we have a vice president? Clinton can
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of
his personal life.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The worst you can do to a free man is kill him.
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®®юю R_9405 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940527 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (8)
To: All 15 May 94 02:14:10
Subject: 00: ultimatum

The problem with Linda Thompson’s plan is that it is
tactically infeasable. Any number of people to have an effect
that might make the DC local news can not get any place near the
White House or Congress before troops from three bases and two
police departments converge on them. The nearest place is about
two miles if you are a crow and 2.5 if you have to walk. They
will have to walk.

It is called for a Monday morning in the middle of rush
hour. It is the unrealized dream of dozens of protest marches to
create a traffic jam during rush hour. It is not a feasible
activity.

Their only hope is for some variation upon a Mouse That
Roared scenario.

The call for carrying arms makes they liable to police
arrest in both Virginia and DC.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (12)
To: Paul West 15 May 94 02:00:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

PW> JB> Agreed, but I think that Ms. Thompson’s actions are going
PW> JB> to be very harmful for those of us still using the
PW> JB> peaceful ballot-box method.

PW> Ms Thompson claims that elections are fixed. I have
PW> thought the opinion polls were fixed but the vote? It is
PW> my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with her
PW> threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing the
PW> 2nd Amendment. 🙁

Which would only speed the present agenda and the time table
for the revolution.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (13)
To: Linda Terrell 15 May 94 02:04:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

LT> PW> It is my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with
LT> PW> her threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing
LT> PW> the 2nd Amendment. 🙁

LT> fortunately, you cannot “repeal” an amendment, and
LT> certainly Congress alone cannot. You have to *Amend* an
LT> amendment and 2/3 of the states have to ratify it.

Even harder, 3/4. The problem is the explicit effort to
get around it.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (15)
To: All 10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: BEN DELISLE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0003096
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

Newsgroups: seattle.general,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.libertarian,pnw.general,talk.politics.drugs,misc.ta
From: [email protected]com (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government.
Begin>
— *** —
This measure would declare the state’s sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people”, and

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States
Constitution and no more; and

WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment
means that the federal government was created by the States
specifically to be an agent of the States; and

WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the
States; and

WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective
immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the United States Senate, each Senator and
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

— *** —


[email protected]


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (16)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 02:47:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills

JH> PJ> Nothing in any other medium up here either. I am surprised
JH> PJ> that the “Ultimatum” hasn’t picked up any interest either.

JH> Didn’t your sensei tell you?… don’t convey your intent
JH> until you are ready to act upon it, then let it be a
JH> surprise.

Instead convey the intention of a different action.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (20)
To: William Childress 20 May 94 02:24:10
Subject: 77 Scholars 1/3

WC> Good, then you’ll agree that the people who
WC> witnessed these miracles are in an excellent position to
WC> document them. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the
WC> N.T. penned by more than one individual? In fact, all the
WC> documents weren’t even penned in the same geographical
WC> location or during the very same period of time.
WC> Considering this fact, I submit that the harmony between
WC> them is nothing short of miraculous.

Considering not one word was written by an eye-witness the
repetition of stories by word of mouth is not exciting.

WC> As for you, are you bothered by the miracles more
WC> than the rigid moral standard? In essence, why one causes
WC> you the most concern?

I would point out the recounting of Timothy mentions no
miracles whatsoever. Of course that account is the oldest and
just missed mentioning them.

WC> Of course, I could make the very same claim
WC> regarding to the scientific calculations which establish
WC> the distances to the stars. I wonder if you accepted those
WC> without questioning their validity? If you did, then you
WC> might ask yourself why?

The method used is fully disclosed and verifiable and
repeatable. Not so for miracles.

WC> There are many people today who believe that Jesus
WC> Christ is God incarnate. I certainly believe it! In
WC> addition, I’ve never come across anything that compares to
WC> the wisdom revealed in the pages of the Bible.

He never made the claim. He said repeatedly he was the son
of man. Are you calling him a liar?

WC> Did anyone ever provide testimony that Elvis raised
WC> someone from the dead? Who watched Elvis heal a blind
WC> man? Did Elvis ever claim to be the Messiah? Did Elvis
WC> ever offer words of such profound wisdom that millions of
WC> people will frame their life around them in two thousand
WC> year’s time?

If we throw away all of the miracles did Yeshua ever claim
to be the Messiah? Specific citation of an explicit claim if
you would be so kind.

As to words of wisdom, Don’t be cruel to a heart that’s
true. Nothing Yeshua said is on a higher level than that.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (21)
To: Mike Timpe 12 May 94 22:47:10
Subject: A Trash Warrant

MT> I grew up surrounded by liberals in a small town called
MT> Cahokia, Il. As I’ve grown older and been away longer from
MT> my homestate, I’ve grown wiser. The system needs to change
MT> and that’s for the conservatives to get control of both
MT> state and federal congress.

I grew up in a moderate sized city called Cincinnati, Ohio.
The people there were so frustrated 40 years ago they were making
a joke the eventually the city would tax water. Little did they
realize every place would tax sewage which is the same thing
unless you have a swimming pool AND there is relief for pool
owners.

As to conservatives, sorry, they just want control of
different things.

Consider Libertarians. They want control of nothing and to
dismantle the present controls.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (27)
To: Virginia Cramer 20 May 94 02:32:10
Subject: AIDS Stats

VC> Why is it that people continually equate homosexuals with
VC> child molesters?

Why does NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)
march in all the gay parades? What other type of organization
would form around a criminal activity? Who but gays would permit
people advocating criminal child molestation to join in their
parade?

VC> Unless a person is both, they are not comparable. Most
VC> homosexuals have relationships with consenting adults.
VC> Child molesters, on the other hand, force themselves on
VC> innocent children, whether by aggressive or passive means.
VC> I accept homosexuality but I will never accept child
VC> molestation.

And the organizers of Gay Rights parades give them an
opportunity to promote criminal child molestation.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Any answer over three words is no.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (29)
To: Mark Whalen 20 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: ALL YOU NON-SMOKERS,я

MW> Hey, ditto! An intelligent message! Smokers are drug
MW> addicts. I was hooked for sixteen years. I have done some
MW> things in my life I am proud of, but nothing greater that
MW> escaping tobacco.

A 12 step program, right?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (31)
To: All 16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Snuck One Passed You
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994. The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights. Sounds reasonable does it not? Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
What does that mean really? For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people. Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women. There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states. Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small. And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
Of course it won’t go downhill overnight. At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs. There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote. I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing. The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
It happened. They got away with another one. What next?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (32)
To: Seth Esrig 14 May 94 17:26:10
Subject: ASSAULT WEAPON IDIOCY

SE> The right wingers state they want big-magazine semi-auto .223,
SE> .308s, military style weapons for the defense of their freedoms.
SE> But I agree with Kurt Saxon who states that every American need
SE> only be armed with a 12guage pump, .38 police special revolver,
SE> and a .30-06 bolt action rifle. I would add a .22LR bolt action
SE> target rifle to the list, perhaps a .22WMR hunting rifle, and
SE> replace the ’06 with a 30-30 lever for those who don’t like the
SE> recoil. The brands amd models that are the most rugged and
SE> reliable also happen to be among the cheapest, such as the
SE> Mossberg 500 shotguns or the Winchester Sportsman rifles. The
SE> arguments against the military style weapons are that they
SE> require much more practice time and ammo to learn to use
SE> properly, cost much more to buy, require more involved
SE> maintanance due to their semi-auto action, and are more likely to
SE> put the owner on the wrong side of the law merely by their
SE> ownership. They give a false sense of security to the idiots who
SE> believe in the “spray and pray” method of home/community defense.
SE> How many of America’s semi-auto owners have ever bothered to
SE> sight in a rifle, take it down and clean it, or managed to hit a
SE> paper target at 50 yards. Based on the subhuman intelligence of
SE> the urban gang-bangers who own most of them, I’d say not many.

Whom do you think you are lecturing?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (35)
To: Ann Ross 18 May 94 02:30:10
Subject: Best in 12 years on BBS’

AR> -=> Quoting Michael Shirley to Ann Ross <=-

AR> First, let me say in 12 years (off and on) I have
AR> less than half a dozen times saved or printed a
AR> message found in any echo. All three of your’s are
AR> printed and will be referred to oftimes. I
AR> sincerely wish to converse with you as your mind is
AR> extremely interesting.

That is like praying to god for justice.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (36)
To: Mike Ringgold 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

MR> MG> SV> Typical breeder reply.
MR> MG>
MR> MG> I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
MR> MG> breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

MR> That was meant to offend me. To me it is a compliment.
MR> Without breeders he would not be here. (nice thought)

Now you are trying to spread the blame.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (38)
To: Scot Vertullo 16 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

SV> > SV> Yup.
SV> >
SV> > SV> Typical breeder reply.
SV> >
SV> > I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
SV> > breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

SV> Damn right. I do have one question though… How come you
SV> “breeders” keep producing us homosexshuuls? 🙂

Don’t really know. The latest research suggests it is a
birth defect of some sort that results in incomplete development
of a parts of the brain.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (39)
To: All 15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

[paraphrased]

Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay’s buttocks
could be worth up to $500,000. They say he is sitting on a gold
mine.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (43)
To: Virag Andras 13 May 94 15:31:10
Subject: CLINTON’S SERB SCRIPT

VA> PS> MG> Bill Clinton’s statements to the Serbs are based upon
VA> PS> MG> Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
VA> PS> MG> “None shall pass!”

VA> Then why do they pass. All of ’em know the answers????????????

You need to see the money. They pass in the movie too but
the knight loses both arms and legs while claiming he hasn’t been
hurt and threatening to bite of a kneecap at the end.

VA> PS> The only thing that really hacks me off about this
VA> PS> country’s treatment of the Serbian situation is our
VA> PS> saber-rattling. We’ve made a few airstrikes, but we
VA> PS> haven’t done anything conclusive. Clinton needs to learn
VA> PS> that just standing behind a podium and making threats is
VA> PS> not going to stop ANYONE, and that if he’s really serious
VA> PS> about flattening the bad guys, he’d better quit talking
VA> PS> about it and just do it.

VA> MG> It is fun to kill people. Just ask Billie Jeff. As we
VA> MG> have no purpose or objective there (the UN may or may not)
VA> MG> we have no business being there.

VA> Look. I’m a Hungarian, I live here, right next to the
VA> serbs. Actually I’ve been a soldier, when the war started
VA> out. I’ve been in the ‘firsts to go if they come’ troops.
VA> And I didn’t question that the americans or UN has
VA> anything to do here, I just wanted them to stop what those
VA> stupid exYugos were (and are) doing. And I also thought
VA> that they shouldn’t just speak about the peace, not only
VA> plea for it, but do something for it. Why? Because I was
VA> afraid. You sure don’t know how weak is the Hungarian
VA> ‘army’ is. About 50% of the military things we have, has
VA> seen the WWII. The rest is also made of crap. The time
VA> when I was a soldier we were 3, 4 times weaker than the
VA> exYugoslavian army. I know that that’s ‘none of America’s
VA> business’ but just think about this: those people are just
VA> the same as the old Scottish people. ‘I hate You, I will
VA> kill You, rape Your women, kill Your children, but look
VA> there comes the British, let’s go kick them in the
VA> butt…’. And they go, kill the British, and keep on
VA> killing each other. Does it makes sense? Now don’t forget,
VA> that these people are Slavonic. And the Slavonic people
VA> are really mad. There’s something bad with their head.
VA> They just don’t think and do anything, following the
VA> logical way. And actually I am not the only one to be
VA> afraid, and counting on Your help. I don’t know how many
VA> civilian had been killed by the US army, but I think they
VA> made much more less, then the serbs themselves. And I
VA> think, that destroying military targets is not bad. They
VA> should do it more faster. Faster and more faster. You know
VA> how high the Hungarian (and europian), crime level became
VA> since the breaking out of the war? Almost every second
VA> crime is related to a former Yugoslavian citizen…

I am not sure where you are going with all of this but I
will point out we have not even been asked by the people under
attack to help. I do not know if they have asked anyone but
certainly they have not asked us. If they asked the UN they
should have known better.

If you are concerned about being attacked the US can supply
you with whatever you need and arrange long term financing for
you. All you have to do is ask.

However if you are saying you folks are not willing to make
the effort to defend yourselves I would suggest you learn to
speak Yugoslavian.

VA> PS> However, I am not in support of the United States alone
VA> PS> getting involved. The UN was founded to put a stop to
VA> PS> the kind of mess that’s going on in what used to be
VA> PS> Yugoslavia, and they need to go in there and do it,
VA> PS> instead of the US playing the cowboy in the white hat.

VA> But they don’t do anything, just walking around, and when
VA> one of them gets killed, saying ‘tsk, tsk, bad boy, don’t
VA> you do it again please, or I’ll put you in the corner,
VA> OK?’, and keep talking…

That is what the UN is all about, nothing.

VA> MG> I am not aware the UN has an issue in Bosnia either. I
VA> MG> know of no place in its charter where it says there shall
VA> MG> be no war. The UN and the US for that matter screwed up
VA> MG> royally recognizing all the new little countries before the
VA> MG> dust had settled. Now they have not the wisdom to
VA> MG> recognize a diplomatic error.

VA> But someone must stop those crazy people, don’t you
VA> think???

Are you saying you want to buy modern weapons to do it?

They have not been stopped for the last 400 years. They
appear to schedule a slaughter like this every seventy years or
so. I have looked into this. I was exchanging messages with
someone in Split on the subject. The issues involved are simply
“too hard” to choose a side. Unfortunately the US and the UN
chose a side against the current losers with the arms embargo.


* RM 1.3 01261 * 6 dead, 22 wounded, a law against guns. Some excuse.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (44)
To: All 18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

United States Constitution

Article I

Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and
paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he
!!!!!

was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority
!!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time;
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.

=====

It is a fine line between “shall be” and “already be” an
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United
States. All attorneys are officers of the court and under their
own jurisdiction.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Bill Clinton is to Roger Rabbit as Hil Clinton is to ..
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (45)
To: All 20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?

Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski? Robert Bennett is
negotiating with Bill Clinton’s staff to reduce the charges
against Rostinkowski. Am I the only person who sees a problem
with this?


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Right of the Individual to be an Individual.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (46)
To: Jackie Bradbury 15 May 94 02:59:10
Subject: Constitutional admenment

JB> I think the AG should be elected the same as the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez, but independently and by popular vote only (no
JB> electoral college). That way, you get a real independent
JB> AG who may be from a different party than the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez.

But who is responsible to the president unless you are
suggesting there be the creation of a fourth branch of
government.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Remember, drag the body inside.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (47)
To: All 13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission

I have been remiss over the last year or so.

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* RM 1.3 01261 * “Safer guns and safer bullets.” New Clinton Policy
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (55)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: Different strokes

JB> MG> JB> But, I’ll just add that I’m a short little squirt myself.
JB> MG> JB> And men’s ankles (and knees) don’t get _me_ all hot and
JB> MG> JB> bothered… 🙂
JB> MG>
JB> MG> What does?

JB> Now, Matt, I told you a long time ago… lots of money! 🙂

Libertarian!

JB> Hubby does… although he isn’t my “type”.

Married beneath yourself obviously.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Reinventing government does not mean pulling it out of a hat
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (56)
To: Bert Byfield 15 May 94 03:03:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

BB> Clinton ADMITTED he was responsible for the murders? When
BB> does he go to trial? Isn’t this America where we are all
BB> equal under the law? Charlie Manson killed less than ten
BB> people. Clinton killed 90. Clinton should have his day in
BB> court. Or is murder legal for the government now?

Yes,


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (57)
To: Gary Steinweg 15 May 94 03:04:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

GS> To be really fair, he didn’t actually kill those 80 people,
GS> he just raced with Reno to take responsibility, then
GS> decided that ladies first was a polite policy. He did feel
GS> their pain, though.

Actually after Reno taking responsibility and him waffling
Limbaugh berated him for an entire day to stand up and take
responsibility. He did the next day.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Were the Police on the Long Island train?
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (58)
To: Martin Eble 15 May 94 03:05:10
Subject: environment

ME> AH> Are regulations designed to protect the environment too
ME> AH> strict, too lenient, or just right? *adh*

ME> Depends on whether you’re

ME> a snail darter

ME> a sucking insect

ME> or a taxpayer.

So now you hold there is a difference between a snail
darter, a politician and a taxpayer.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The only good criminal is a dead criminal.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (69)
To: All 18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Florida HRS Harassment Starts

In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved. The
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.
This was a he. His name was not obtained; he offered no
identification.

The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms.
Giwer’s aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the
property for not having a current tag. This is not illegal
within the City of Dunedin. Both her and her aunt live at the
house. No notification was ever delivered to the house.

The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was
responsible. The party was unaware Ms. Giwer’s mother is also an
owner of the property. When informed of this he suggested if he
looked into the mother’s file he would find a similar
notification. He was unable to account for the coincidence he
was involved in.

His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow
the vehicle. He was given no such agreement. He was informed
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own
decision and would be his responsibility.

Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared
incompetant aunt. I can only assume it was a fruitful
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Constitution is not a technicality.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (70)
To: All 10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust
at the idea of mercenaries known. Of course we can write our
elected representatives — we can also piss up a rope and
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our
postal system.

The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of
America in their regard.

A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in
Washington DC. If you are one of those who believes we learned
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more
direct approach is desirable.

First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong. I have
not looked into the postage nor its form of government — so that
it gets to the right person (I don’t think Chief of Police will
cut it.)

Second is the following. This is the highest ranking Hong
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting
such letters to the right person — implying she did not know the
right person either — but I trust her suggestion.

I am composing a letter that will request their police be
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in
combat. (Lay on the gory descriptions here. If anyone has any
good ones please post them.)

I will also include a reference that I am opposing the
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters
to Congress.

As reference for any letter you might be interested in
writing here is the citation of interest.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

A DECLARATION

By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

He is at this time, transporting large Armies of
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation,
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Child abuse experts do not reproduce.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (74)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:17:10
Subject: gun-control

GR> The assault rifles being banned are cheap and concealable.

You are very stupid.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Torah! Torah! Torah!” A battle cry to frighten Arabs.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (79)
To: All 13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!

*********** Original To: STEVEN GLADIN
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0106 – Civil Liber-F
———————————————————————–

SG> Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational
SG> fears of people that he does not know, that George should
SG> be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if
SG> his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.
SG> In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

Speaking of Florida’s infamous Baker Act it is ten days from
the following letter.

To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower
of another woman. We have on child together, that being our only
serious connection. There is NO exaggeration in anything that
follows. This letter was mailed on the date indicated. There
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you think health care is expensive now, wait til its free
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (81)
To: All 17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

$1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless
in the US.

In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless
in the US.

On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are
600,000 homeless in the US.

It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the
largest number of homeless possible.

3000000 | X
| X
2700000 | X
| X
2400000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
2100000 | X
| X
1800000 | X
| X
1500000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
1200000 | X
| X
900000 | X
| X
600000 |—————-X—————————————X-
| X X
300000 | X X
| X X
0 | X X X
|———————————————————-

S C C
n e i
i n s
d s n
e u e
r s r
o
1 B s
9 u
8 r 1
7 e 9

a 9
u 4

The swings are enormous. The only difference between
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different
asses. Of course the Cisneros’ ass hasn’t been burned yet.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I do not have an ego. I am right.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (89)
To: Bill Bauer 15 May 94 03:16:10
Subject: Important numbers

BB> … *** BILL BAUER ***
BB> … *** MODERATOR ***
BB> … *** RIGHTS_RONGS ECHO ***

Speaking of which my sysop is also a REC or some such and
tells me you have not petitioned for backbone status.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (94)
To: All 16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is
false or misleading. I have cut it down to the relevant
essentials. Naomi Giwer is my first wife. As of this date I
have received no response to this second letter.

This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like
proceedings in the State of Florida. It is noted the same agency
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with
infected sores only two months ago.

I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the
finding public if there were any waves caused. To paraphrase, it
is in her best interests this be kept private. That implies
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they
would. It was a lovely threat.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.

As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * Reconcile and Reconcile are clintonyms.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (100)
To: All 12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism. If
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please
join me there.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:23:10
Subject: Memorial Day

GR> And they certainly aren’t against soldiers. The
GR> Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded to
GR> homosexuals.

How many? By name.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: William Morgan 19 May 94 02:25:10
Subject: Michael Fay Caning

WM> And every day, more and more people are learning why
WM> Charles Bronson’s “Death Wish” movies were so popular!
WM> Remember, an armed society is a polite society.

And it is the responsibility of good citizens to create good
criminals.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: All 10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper’s demotion captures attention of FBI

The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.

In an article in the April-May edition of the American
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited “over a
hundred” sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of
Arkansas. His remarks corroborated the accounts of other
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

Trooper Brown’s transfer was to have taken effect yesterday,
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

“He is upset, no question about that,” said his attorney,
Justin Thornton of Washington.

Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said: “I don’t think that is
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view.”

Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state. He
said yesterday he is “distressed, to be quite candid and
conservative. I am not happy at all.”

The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has
had with the FBI. As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

Once described by his commander as the “best investigator I
have,” Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.
“I haven’t been in uniform in nearly 15 years,” he said. “This
is incredible.”

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary’s Cattle

In this week’s New Republic, James Glassman examined first
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s trading record with Refco and
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating,
breaking margin calls.

“She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a
well-off businessman who … was in almost precisely the same
situation as Rodham Clinton,” Mr. Glassman reported.

During the time of Mrs. Clinton’s celebrated trading, Refco
“sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than
$100,000 — ‘even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I
was earning a six-figure income.’

“[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was
earning a lot less. Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:
‘How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Beware the low profit.” Giwer 1:1
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (109)
To: All 20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation.
in California found that when controlled for variables such as
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on
death row for killing blacks.

Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

When he considered the number of victims, whether the
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (110)
To: All 20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed

Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months
because of their potentially “embarassing” content.

Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp.
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual,
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they “violate their
legal obligation to run over the documents” under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said
yesterday.

“Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health
effects from passive smoking,” Jane G. Gravelle, senior
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found
“some uncertainties” in the EPA’s estimate of the numbers of
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

“I don’t want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect … an uncertain effect
… and it’s hard to detect small things,” Ms. Gravelle said in
an interview after the Senate hearing.

Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly
charged that the EPA’s findings were based on flawed science and
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after
Ms. Gravelle’s testimony.

But Ms. Gravelle said her research group’s conclusion that
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant
health risks from passive smoking “flows from an analysis of the
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology
of disease-causing agents.”

Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking
could have been as low as three per year.

Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking,
the congressional researcher noted.

Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the
effects of environmental smoke — using the amounts of a tobacco
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine — showed the effect
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day. Such
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker
deaths, she said.

This method “assumed a linear relationship between the
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure,” she said. But there is
“some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case
of lung cancer,” she said.

In that case, the “estimate would be only three people
rather than 600 people,” she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents,
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

{Enough said– mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (111)
To: All 20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed

The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat’s first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Yassar Arafat has yet to name all
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the
Gaza and Jericho government.

The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei
Karta sect — the name means Guardians of the City — a group
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism
and the state of Israel.

Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem’s
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far
this time. Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

“He’s going to hurt bad,” said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

{An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch. His beard is
approximately 3 inches long. He is going to hurt. — mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (112)
To: All 20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel’s smoking ban excludes few public places

A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco
shops and prisons.

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the “most important
legislation in disease prevention in years” and cited the
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

Ironically, the subcommittee’s passage of the bill came one
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

{Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number. —
mg}


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (113)
To: All 21 May 94 15:41:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 17 May 1994

Whitewater-papers suit to get earlier court dates

Rep. Jim Leach, who has unsuccessfully sought
Whitewater-Madison documents for five months, and lawyers for two
federal agencies he sued for the records yesterday agreed to
accelerated court dates for legal arguments in the case.

Mr. Leading, the leading proponent in Congress for hearings
in the Whitewater-Madison affair, said in a lawsuit filed last
Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Washington that efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed since December
because of their potentially embarrassing” content.

Fiske OKs review of Treasury papers

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. said yesterday he has
given the White House permission to review Treasury Department
documents detailing contacts with regulators over the
Whitewater-Madison affair.

Mr. Fiske described the action as a “limited step” to allow
the White House to prepare for congressional hearings …

{I presume this is why Clinton liked Fiske. — mg}

Supreme Court rules on guns and garbage

The Supreme Court played referee yesterday in
jurisdictional disputes over garbage, guns and Ellis Island

For people convicted of serious federal crimes, only the
federal government can restore their constitutional right to
possess guns, the high court said.

{{{{{Can ANYONE find this? It would be a finding in favor of the
2nd amendment even though it does take away states powers in
civil rights. — mg}}}}}

INSIDE Politics

Perk coincidence

An airport official told Roll Call it is “just
coincidental,” but the wording of the signs designating reserved
airport parking for Congress has been changed to remove
references to members.

Until three weeks ago the signs read “Reserved Parking/
Supreme Court Justices/ Members of Congress/ Diplomatic Corps.”
Now they say only “Restricted Parking/ Authorized Users Only,”
says Roll Call.

The change went into effect April 25, five days after the
Senate defeated a warmly contested measure calling for the
removal of the reserved lots.

Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and leader of the
effort to remove the lots, called the sign change a “stupid”
effort to “deceive the public.”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “The media is biased toward the left.” Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (115)
To: All 24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

What Democracy Is
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote. As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote. I would suggest that
is garbage.
Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends. A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved. Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever. If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever. If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner. Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards. What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result. Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work. What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting. It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote. Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
I find myself arguing in the negative at this point. My
points are

1) Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

2) The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus. I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written. I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
A long discussion and more than a little digression. The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people. It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources. It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country — you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more. When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%. The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (116)
To: All 19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Origins of Morality
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research. What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them. Morality is another.
We know we evolved from social animals. Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups. It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages. We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth. A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
A moral code is simply what permits social life. The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language. All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans. We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human. We do work to save them from it.
The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system. They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder. It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class. The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language. Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point? I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality. I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language. I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior. In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey. The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following. The use of force is inherently evil.
Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force. It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
Government has become out codification of our moral
standards. It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people. What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil. It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
There is the key concept I have been building toward. Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil. (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil. Honest thought does
not work that way.) We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance. Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the “good” any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for “his own
good.”
Notice that this is nothing new. But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments. We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified. We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case. Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good. The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (117)
To: Charles Hill 13 May 94 04:02:10
Subject: PGP in progress

CH> The pertinent Rule of the Conference saith thusly:

CH> “PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) ™ and other encryption
CH> systems: Entire messages ought not to be encoded; however,
CH> until such time as FidoNet may choose to establish
CH> contravening policy in this matter, exchange of public keys
CH> as part of a legitimate message shall be permitted.”
CH>
CH> This particular Rule specifically permits public keys, and
CH> does not really bar encrypted messages. The original
CH> intent of the author (don’t you wish these Constitutional
CH> scholars had it so easy?) was to keep people from
CH> encrypting everything they posted in the conference, since
CH> it adds a lot of unreadable stuff to everybody’s mail
CH> packets. Clearly this is not your intention, so I see no
CH> reason to object to it.
CH>
CH> So mote it be….cgh

If I may add…

Giwerworld on Lucifernet reaches every place in the country
for a short LD cost at worst. This conference has no rules,
period, and encrypted messages are not within the notice of the
deity in charge of the conference, namely me. Jimmy Pearson will
confirm upon request.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (118)
To: William Childress 13 May 94 15:46:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION

WC> MG> Are you saying Judas hung himself by this feet so that he
WC> MG> could fall “headlong”? Was he an early bungee jumper?

WC> I take it that you are indicating that the events
WC> listed are impossible!

I was pointing out there are contradictory, infallible
statements in the recountings.

However, I can’t count how many
WC> times people have offered similar arguments regarding
WC> biblical documentation. Regardless, a bright individual
WC> ought to be able to come up with at least a single
WC> plausible solution to the dilemma. In other words, toss
WC> your prejudice aside for a minute, and let’s say that both
WC> passages are correct. After all, this admission on your
WC> part would not substantiate the whole Bible. Therefore,
WC> what can you come up with to satisfy both descriptions?

Bungee jumping. Maybe Yeshua gave him the bungee cords. He
was god wasn’t he?

WC> Consider this though, if you fail to offer any solution,
WC> then anyone posting a plausible solution will cause others
WC> to seriously question your intellect. And, why should
WC> people even consider future arguments posted by an
WC> intellectually impaired individual?

You are the one who has to support infallible
contradictions, not me. I could care less.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (125)
To: Ken Pangborn 18 May 94 17:09:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> KP> Yes, as we have seen, we have the technological
KP> KP> ability to destroy the planet and all life on it. Do we have
KP> KP> the developed wisdom to survive it?

KP> LT> We cannot destroy this planet. It can destroy us, however.

KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> uninhabitable.

Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
fault.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (127)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 02:31:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> LT>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear weapons in the
KP> LT>KP> arsenals were to be detonated at roughly the same time, the
KP> LT>KP> Earth would become a second sun. I would think that having an
KP> LT>KP> ambient temperature of about 140,000 degrees Celsius would
KP> LT>KP> make the planet roughly uninhabitable.

KP> LT> The secret woid is “theory”

KP> Pretty solid theiry Linda. Want to put it to the
KP> test? Seems like our President does…..

Pretty solid crap although not in line for solid waste
disposal.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (130)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 15:22:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> MG>KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> MG>KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> MG>KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> MG>KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> MG>KP> uninhabitable.

KP> MG> Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
KP> MG>fault.

KP> Again Matt, are you willing to put it to the test?
KP> As I recall, at one point the Soviets had something like
KP> 37,000 nukes of 50 MT or more, not counting MIRV capacity.
KP> And the U.S. had some greater number. I’m not sure what
KP> 70,000+ 50mt bombs would do if detonated simultaneously. I
KP> imagine they might make a little bit of a mess. You of
KP> course would be out with your Raybans and surfer suit!

You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have to
recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature increase
be apparent.

We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
math leading to the prediction.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (133)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 01:58:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have
KP> MG> to recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
KP> MG> mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature
KP> MG> increase be apparent.

KP> Try reading Carl Sagan’s writings on nuclear winter
KP> and the nuclear armageddon. He and some of the others make
KP> a compelling case for nuclear anihilation.

Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
crap?

He couldn’t get Kuwait right but of course he can get
nuclear winter right. You have a touching faith in a TV
personality.

KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
theory I expected nothing better from you.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (135)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 13:34:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
KP> MG>his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
KP> MG>He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
KP> MG>crap?

KP> Matt you have a way about you.

So does Sagan, wrong.

KP> MG>KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> MG>KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

KP> MG> As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
KP> MG>theory I expected nothing better from you.

KP> As usual, Giwer deals with the issues.

Please prove me wrong and present the theory so we can go
over the math.


* RM 1.3 01261 * To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (136)
To: Michael Funk 10 May 94 21:01:10
Subject: SCHINDLER’S LIST

MF> MG> So if you have three hours and the cash to drop on what is
MF> MG> undoubtedly the worst movie every to be given an academy
MF> MG> award don’t miss it.

MF> Nope, you weren’t the last to see the movei…I will
MF> be!..And now I Think I won’t even do that if this movie is
MF> that bad. I have the book, so I’ll read it instead.

I have not read the book. Remember I am commenting upon it
as a movie. If you know everything around it you may enjoy it.
But this is like an event that happened in the course of the
Chinese civil war of 1859 (?) without every giving you one word
about that war or any context within it.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the right to be free
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (137)
To: All 19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise

AA> “Choosing to Die”
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42; Katel, Peter
AA> Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and
AA> regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS
AA> sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had
AA> another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own
AA> veins. Delgado is one of a group of young people known as
AA> frikis–“freaks” or “rockers”–who claim that they
AA> intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting
AA> themselves with tainted blood. Various sources have named
AA> more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they
AA> injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died. According
AA> to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.
AA> A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is
AA> possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV
AA> from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS
AA> among the group indicates that their explanation is a
AA> truthful one. “There is no other explanation for someone
AA> dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection,”
AA> he says. Cuba’s policy at the time was to quarantine
AA> anyone testing HIV-positive. For the frikis, life in an
AA> AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air
AA> conditioning, an absence of police–luxuries the average
AA> Cuban did not enjoy.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Any answer over three words is no.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (153)
To: All 23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Reverse Vigilance
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance. The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance. Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability. Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges. In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press. Criticism is generally
limited to political lines. It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power. It is the prize of
the political process. And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies. “Everyone knows” the government is in control of every
thing. It is a simple belief to play upon.
The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail. There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out “it wasn’t this summer but it is
coming” sitting right there.
Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption? Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour. Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail? Haven’t you
always wondered why the most important mail is late? Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and “everyone knows” how many
employees they have.
Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns. Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill. This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better. All that would be needed
would be the working title.
The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars. The people already have little confidence
in the government. There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack. The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort. After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack. And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The most banned user in the known universe.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (156)
To: All 15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy! 01

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: SIMON JESTER
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/09/94 – 0002477
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Picked this up while cruising the “highway”, and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd. All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there’s a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do.

By Brock N. Meeks

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: “send
clipper.index”. – The Editors of WIRED]

If privacy isn’t already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it’s about to be. The panel members didn’t try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
“front load” the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream.

But these are tools the “good guys” said would be used only to catch the “bad
guys.” Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement’s proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX.

There’s just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, “Right now most
law enforcement personnel don’t have any idea what the NII is,” this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel.

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would “help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes.” Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney’s office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies.

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press.

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters’ deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot’s NAFTA-inspired “giant sucking sound.” This was the dull
“thump” of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender.

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as “proactive”
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
“have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now,” Walker said.

For today’s wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to “no big difference,” he said. Besides, “it
would save time and money.”

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. “Frankly, I don’t see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority],” he said. With a straight
face.

It’s Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn’t mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, “it only means we’ll catch fewer criminals,” he said.

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of “just putting the
bad guys in jail,” as James Settle, head of the FBI’s National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy.

“Because of law enforcement’s concerns (regarding digital technologies), we’re
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities,” Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency “is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network.”

Go ahead. Read it again.

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes.

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls “unprecedented”
is that – if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way – the design of the national telecommunications
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (157)
To: Ken Wiebe 18 May 94 03:25:10
Subject: Socialists

KW> JH> Gimme a break! It is the same stupid “love it or leave
KW> JH> it”/”like it or lump it” philosophy any way you look at
KW> JH> it.

KW> As an anti-smoke legislation supporter, I don’t really
KW> expect you to understand the difference. Suffice it to say
KW> that restaurants are a dime a dozen, and very common, free
KW> countries are rare as hen’s teeth.

Unfortunately the US is a Fascist country that assumes the
right to control free enterprise soley on the grounds that it is
free.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Si vis pacem, parabellum.” If you would see peace, prepare
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (158)
To: Scot Vertullo 20 May 94 18:32:10
Subject: Stockpiling guns…яяяяяя

SV> > If you were confining the subject to weapons, then
SV> > you should have said stockpiling weapons, and not simply
SV> > stockpiling.

SV> I did.

Which makes no difference. They were in their home. They
had a right to own guns and a right to be in the gun business.
Do you have an objection to that?

SV> > Are you in the belief that churches should not be
SV> > in the business of buying, and selling weapons, because
SV> > that is how it sounds.

SV> Bingo! 🙂 Why should they? Unless the definition has
SV> changed, I believe that churches exist to save souls; not
SV> deal with weapons of death.

Is this part of the definition that you would impose upon all
religions or would you permit people to hold alternate religious
convictions? What would be your means of enforcement?


* RM 1.3 01261 * None of my opinions are humble.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (159)
To: Dave Hankins 10 May 94 21:47:10
Subject: Subsidies

DH> If you would, throw up your public key on GiwerWorld
DH> for me. I have some info you may be very interested
DH> in. I believe you already have mine… Thanks.

Should be there soon.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (160)
To: All 24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

The Federal Reserve
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money. I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand. At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand. Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline. What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs. The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB. I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money. We all have done one or the other over the years. That
is all that is happening. What is of interest is how it is
happening.
When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody’s rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate. This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk. It is nothing you don’t know about.
The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market. A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
Of course you have. If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate. The only difference is the way it
is presented. One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property. If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company. You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income. Do not kid yourself it is anything else. You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years. If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income. Income for the government equals
revenues. Revenues equals taxes.
In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.
So what?
OK here is a “furrinstance.” Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income? It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate. That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone’s opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings. I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner. And thus the crux of
the issue.
Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
A long question, too long. The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs. It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be. That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power. I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country. Perhaps I missed
something. I am open to correction.
The world has gotten more complicated? Fine. Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB. Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB. And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
Certainly it would be a rocky transition. The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power. They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation. If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them. We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in “managing” our economy to do it.
It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression. That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (169)
To: All 23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Twilight of Liberty
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world. Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing. There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution. Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals. Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause. Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government. Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
Should we lose it can it arise again? The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around. Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior. That is always a possibility. All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy. Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government. Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
I consider these valid questions. I hold they can only be
answered by testing. This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed. The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government. This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits. We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty. We now elect our “monarchs” for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life. That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits. The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes. Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it. A
monarchy can be quite as limited. The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta. Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers. It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea. And the opportunity took a
revolution.
A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question. It is only a matter of
timing. It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life. As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
We are coming to the time of making that choice.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Dr. Gruber, get a life.” Dr. Herbert West
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 03:41:10
Subject: Ultimatum

JH> If she can turn out 2 million in uniform and armed she will
JH> come thru OK. At least her cause probably will; she likely
JH> will be killed under strange circumstances. If she turns
JH> out only 20,000 then we are all in dead serious effing deep
JH> trouble.

2 million. The entire metro area counting every one has
about that many. So she has a temporary doubling of the local
population. I suggest they bring shovels and toilet paper as
there are not enough toilet facilities for that many.

20,000 people, 5000 cars. Where do they park?

Any reasonable number of people to try to do this is can be
handled by the DC police.

JH> Sensei say, flee if you can the confrontation you are not
JH> sure you can win. If we declare “war” against the
JH> bastards, we better be ready to back it up with everything
JH> we have. The people are not mad enough yet to do that IMO.
JH> Despite all those “we’re right behind you, Linda” voices,
JH> she would be well advised to keep track of how far behind
JH> her they really are. Bring binoculars.

More realistically a guerrilla war is the only one
possible. Shut down all federal offices except social security
and the post office — there is no need to make enemies, besides
the cash flow is needed. Every state or local agency that
cooperates with the Feds is shut down.

The last thing to do is put an armed force in the field.
That is saved until we have the strength to win.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Shoot a gun grabber today!
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Phillip Jones 15 May 94 03:56:10
Subject: ultimatum

PJ> BB> Hmmm, it appears to me that you haven’t been reading the
PJ> BB> mail the last couple of days in some of the other echos. It
PJ> BB> would appear that the interest in this subject has indeed
PJ> BB> picked up quite a bit of interest.

PJ> This is the only “general interest” echo I read regularly.
PJ> But I do read 2-3 different newspapers a day, and listen to
PJ> several news broadcasts, and haven’t heardb a peep out of
PJ> those media.

Have you mailed them hard copies?


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:52:10
Subject: Unreasonable Searches

JB> MG> I got a little bit more on it. It is apparently
JB> MG> contained in some bill in Congress. I have not found which
JB> MG> bill or where it stands. All info shared.

JB> Keep us informed – after finals (next week), I’m gonna be
JB> so campaign oriented I won’t be thinking of much else.

It is now next week. Are you still alive or simply in
terminal exhaustion. It is unfortunate we have adopted a boot
camp form of education instead of an apprenticeship form.

JB> MG> Lose me now or lose me later. We are passed the point
JB> MG> where there is any hope of turning this around. The only
JB> MG> hope left is that enough people will express their
JB> MG> determination regarding such matters and scare the gov
JB> MG> off.

JB> Y’know, hubby & I are convinced, due to evidence here, on
JB> talk radio, and from just regular folks we meet, we are now
JB> intering a period of “low level panic”. Folks are getting
JB> scared, Matt – and mad. Slowly, surely. One by one.

That is my observation exactly.

JB> MG> Unfortunately that is only putting off the inevitable.

JB> Well, I meant be careful in a smart, Matt Giwer way, not a
JB> stupid Linda Thompson way. I.E., if you’re gonna do it,
JB> stay around long enough to do it right – one HK cop does
JB> not equal one MG, know what I mean?

Don’t worry about that. In a direct confrontation I am
known to be smart in spite of the most devout intentions. I am
working on what to shut down and what to leave operating in the
course of a revolution. For example all (federal) government
buildings are shut down. The IRS is shut down. Social Security
is left open as is the Post Office to deliver the checks.

“A bomb threat a day keeps the workers away.” And relaxes
security to the point where a real bomb goes off. The revolution
will take years, not weeks. 365 bomb threats will make any
security force yawn.

JB> MG> They are up against a disarm populace courtesy of the
JB> MG> British. They have a shock in store for them.

JB> No kidding. BTW: heard today that Bobbies are going to
JB> carry guns in London. Rising crime rate, y’know – is that
JB> _possible_ without guns? (sarcasm intended)

Of course it is foreign, American style violence so it not
really their fault. Obviously they pacified Ireland 400 years
ago.

JB> MG> I will not excuse people failing to think. And from
JB> MG> 2.5 years of driving a cab and plenty of black passenger
JB> MG> who requested me it is only the black “leaders” who are
JB> MG> saying these things. I met a few taking advantage of the
JB> MG> system. Most you could not tell from Walter Williams. And
JB> MG> none of the above had anything good to say about the
JB> MG> “leaders.”

JB> Agreed. We have a black man in the lead for the Republican
JB> nomination in our Congressional District. I’m interested
JB> to see how this turns out.

In 1988 in Virginia I voted for two blacks and that includes
the ex-governor. Wilder talked a good case until he got in
office. (Partisan politics in Virginia [had] little to do with
national party affiliation at the time.)

JB> MG> Between elections get a hack license and meet them.

JB> Y’know, I’ve thought about doing that, but to be honest,
JB> I’d be scared to.

A little street smarts and the company will help you out.
It is the 8th most dangerous profession but that really isn’t all
that high.

JB> MG> JB> I’m not so sure that’s a total loss yet. Give me a couple
JB> MG> JB> more election cycles to decide for sure. But I will agree
JB> MG> JB> that it looks bad.
JB> MG>
JB> MG> I have already given it a couple more election cycles.
JB> MG> You are not required to be an old fart cynic like me. You
JB> MG> are simply invited to name one election that has changed
JB> MG> anything.

JB> Um, Thomas Jefferson’s? Between TJ and Burr? Lincoln’s,
JB> maybe?

Kennedy/Goldwater was my first.

JB> Other than that, no, not one single one – it’s a cumulative
JB> thing that makes for positive change. That’s another
JB> reason why I’m a manager and not a candidate. It’s better
JB> to get 8 good folks or more elected than just myself.

If everyone waits as long as I have they will be like me,
too old to go into the field and the those that are young enough
will still be waiting.

JB> MG> So far as I am aware there are only two Libertarian
JB> MG> candidates in the Tampa Bay area. I don’t see a difference
JB> MG> between real and candidate. Viable? I expect to find out
JB> MG> soon.

JB> Research will tell. I mean a “real” candidate as in “I
JB> want to win”.

Three weeks between an offer to make colorful handouts and
zero response. You can’t argue free but he did not accept the
offer.

JB> MG> There always are. I have a set of political GIFs that
JB> MG> I am looking for distribution cites for. Even in my humble
JB> MG> opinion

JB> Get in touch with Ron Krickenberger of the National LP;
JB> he’s in Atlanta – he’s the LP campaign director. He may be
JB> able to use it or connect you with folks who can.

Will look for him. Do you have a BBS number? I am
surprised I have not heard of him as I am as well connected
BBS-wise in Atlanta as I am in this area.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: George Rudzinski 13 May 94 04:12:10
Subject: Waco

GR> DB> Changing the name? They are flashbangs, that’s all.

GR> JW> They were originally called “stun grenades”.

GR> Doesn’t much matter what you call them, they are still
GR> flashbangs.
GR>
GR> If the BATF went into that compound wanting to kill people,
GR> flashbangs wouldn’t be the grenade of choice.

Nor does it matter what you wish to call them. The
certainly rupture ear drums. They certainly can induce fatal
grand mal seizures. They certainly are intended to disorient
people, maybe enough to think the person throwing them means them
harm.

When you are on the receiving or when you are willing to
respond as though they had achieved their intended purpose you
will have something legitimate to post.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (174)
To: All 11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0001234
********** On: GUNTALK – 0012 – GENPOL
———————————————————————–

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board. The
last message said, “I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid.” I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news. A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists —
men, women, and children. I wondered, “What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?”

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco. I don’t like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what. The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh. And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever. Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson! Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion. Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home. Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War. Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn’t have. The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him. Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them. He was shot at. He ducked back
inside. A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him. This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre. How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk? I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today. There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children. The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them. Is this justice? Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle. It was deliberate. It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI. It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States. It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?

* SLMR 2.1a * Don’t gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
— MMGR v3.52
* GUN-TALK GENeral POLitics Conference


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (177)
To: Ann Ross 19 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: What makes a SIN a Sяяяяя

AR> Da> —–[ First Scot Vertullo Said: ]—–
AR> > As long as I’m not harming others then I have a right to do it. I
AR> > repeat: “If you don’t *like* my homosexuality, tough…adjust to it.”
AR> Da> —–[ My Reply: ]—–

AR> Da> You don’t have a right to spout off about how you are a
AR> Da> homosexual, just as I don’t have the right to spout off
AR> Da> about how I’m straight.

AR> The Constitution gives you both freedom of speech. Learn to
AR> live with it because you canNOT change it.

As you have been corrected before, the Constitution GIVES us
nothing. It prevents the government from infringing pre-existing
rights. That is why it is phrased as it is. But you know that.
You simply enjoy playing the asshole.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0648 – USA Politic-U
———————————————————————–

[I came across the tail end of something like this and never
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation. I later
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I
was was not arrested.

When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for
I was not for I was not on trial. [seizure of the property of
the innocent]

When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I
was not accused. [imprisonment for being a material witness]

When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge. [Civil rights
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide. [Chicago]

When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.

When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun. [Brady and Feinstein bills]

When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.
[government approved religions]

=====

Many other examples could be presented.

The time is nigh.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (208)
To: All 24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0250 – FN-FSPEECH
———————————————————————–

12-BBS

A new echo is seeking backbone status. This echo is
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their
BBSing habit. Please request your Sysop to carry it today.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I am Ozyharriet, Family of Families
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: All 25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: HARRY WANG
* STOLEN * To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/13/94 – 0003631
********** On: T-RECALL – 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing! Call HCI’s toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible. Since it’s an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call–about 20 cents per minute–80 cents per full length call. Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won’t send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste. 1000, Washington, DC
20005. Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents…you get the idea. Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y’know…)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

– Pedit Ver 1.9a

— ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
* MKNet * Zylink BBS, St. Paul, MN (612)776-1502


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (225)
To: All 24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: SOFTWARE
*********** Conf: 0018 – S-DEATH&TAXES
———————————————————————–

The Secret Drug Profile
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination. They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.
They were infallible in their use of this technique. It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades. It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead. We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case. We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the “expert” making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
At least they made their “profile” public.
Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released. The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts. Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
This profile is for drug traffickers. It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets. It has been used against multi-millionaires. It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen. It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage. It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement. In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic. If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
“drug security forces” if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known. After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
We are not as “honest” as the Nazis. We keep our profile a
secret. It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
Of course we must ask if we are any better.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Getting even is a moral imperative.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (226)
To: All 24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

David L. Hale, now a government witness in the
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law
enforcement sources.

Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal’s now-defunct Madison Guaranty
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in
1986 to Mr. McDougal’s wife, Susan, the sources said.

Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved. He said
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because
her being a woman would make approval easier.

At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton’s and
Mr. McDougal’s ownership of the Whitewater venture.

Hale’s attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved
in the loan — Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client — knew
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan. He said it
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a
woman as the nominee borrower.

The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty
last month to two counts of defrauding the government. … He
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make
additional loans.

Leach: RTC may fire prober

Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government’s chief
investigator is about to lose her job.

Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

Mrs. Lewis’ belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach
crimes may have been committed.


* RM 1.3 01261 * To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (244)
To: All 24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: AUTODOC
*********** Conf: 0109 – Debate
———————————————————————–

I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

Pardon me. Don’t we have a vice president? Clinton can
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of
his personal life.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The worst you can do to a free man is kill him.
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®®юю R_9405 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940527 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (8)
To: All 15 May 94 02:14:10
Subject: 00: ultimatum

The problem with Linda Thompson’s plan is that it is
tactically infeasable. Any number of people to have an effect
that might make the DC local news can not get any place near the
White House or Congress before troops from three bases and two
police departments converge on them. The nearest place is about
two miles if you are a crow and 2.5 if you have to walk. They
will have to walk.

It is called for a Monday morning in the middle of rush
hour. It is the unrealized dream of dozens of protest marches to
create a traffic jam during rush hour. It is not a feasible
activity.

Their only hope is for some variation upon a Mouse That
Roared scenario.

The call for carrying arms makes they liable to police
arrest in both Virginia and DC.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (12)
To: Paul West 15 May 94 02:00:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

PW> JB> Agreed, but I think that Ms. Thompson’s actions are going
PW> JB> to be very harmful for those of us still using the
PW> JB> peaceful ballot-box method.

PW> Ms Thompson claims that elections are fixed. I have
PW> thought the opinion polls were fixed but the vote? It is
PW> my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with her
PW> threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing the
PW> 2nd Amendment. 🙁

Which would only speed the present agenda and the time table
for the revolution.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (13)
To: Linda Terrell 15 May 94 02:04:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum

LT> PW> It is my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with
LT> PW> her threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing
LT> PW> the 2nd Amendment. 🙁

LT> fortunately, you cannot “repeal” an amendment, and
LT> certainly Congress alone cannot. You have to *Amend* an
LT> amendment and 2/3 of the states have to ratify it.

Even harder, 3/4. The problem is the explicit effort to
get around it.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you wish peace, prepare for war.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (15)
To: All 10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: BEN DELISLE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0003096
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

Newsgroups: seattle.general,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.libertarian,pnw.general,talk.politics.drugs,misc.ta
From: [email protected] (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government.
Begin>
— *** —
This measure would declare the state’s sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people”, and

WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States
Constitution and no more; and

WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment
means that the federal government was created by the States
specifically to be an agent of the States; and

WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the
States; and

WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective
immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the United States Senate, each Senator and
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

— *** —


[email protected]


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (16)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 02:47:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills

JH> PJ> Nothing in any other medium up here either. I am surprised
JH> PJ> that the “Ultimatum” hasn’t picked up any interest either.

JH> Didn’t your sensei tell you?… don’t convey your intent
JH> until you are ready to act upon it, then let it be a
JH> surprise.

Instead convey the intention of a different action.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (20)
To: William Childress 20 May 94 02:24:10
Subject: 77 Scholars 1/3

WC> Good, then you’ll agree that the people who
WC> witnessed these miracles are in an excellent position to
WC> document them. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the
WC> N.T. penned by more than one individual? In fact, all the
WC> documents weren’t even penned in the same geographical
WC> location or during the very same period of time.
WC> Considering this fact, I submit that the harmony between
WC> them is nothing short of miraculous.

Considering not one word was written by an eye-witness the
repetition of stories by word of mouth is not exciting.

WC> As for you, are you bothered by the miracles more
WC> than the rigid moral standard? In essence, why one causes
WC> you the most concern?

I would point out the recounting of Timothy mentions no
miracles whatsoever. Of course that account is the oldest and
just missed mentioning them.

WC> Of course, I could make the very same claim
WC> regarding to the scientific calculations which establish
WC> the distances to the stars. I wonder if you accepted those
WC> without questioning their validity? If you did, then you
WC> might ask yourself why?

The method used is fully disclosed and verifiable and
repeatable. Not so for miracles.

WC> There are many people today who believe that Jesus
WC> Christ is God incarnate. I certainly believe it! In
WC> addition, I’ve never come across anything that compares to
WC> the wisdom revealed in the pages of the Bible.

He never made the claim. He said repeatedly he was the son
of man. Are you calling him a liar?

WC> Did anyone ever provide testimony that Elvis raised
WC> someone from the dead? Who watched Elvis heal a blind
WC> man? Did Elvis ever claim to be the Messiah? Did Elvis
WC> ever offer words of such profound wisdom that millions of
WC> people will frame their life around them in two thousand
WC> year’s time?

If we throw away all of the miracles did Yeshua ever claim
to be the Messiah? Specific citation of an explicit claim if
you would be so kind.

As to words of wisdom, Don’t be cruel to a heart that’s
true. Nothing Yeshua said is on a higher level than that.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (21)
To: Mike Timpe 12 May 94 22:47:10
Subject: A Trash Warrant

MT> I grew up surrounded by liberals in a small town called
MT> Cahokia, Il. As I’ve grown older and been away longer from
MT> my homestate, I’ve grown wiser. The system needs to change
MT> and that’s for the conservatives to get control of both
MT> state and federal congress.

I grew up in a moderate sized city called Cincinnati, Ohio.
The people there were so frustrated 40 years ago they were making
a joke the eventually the city would tax water. Little did they
realize every place would tax sewage which is the same thing
unless you have a swimming pool AND there is relief for pool
owners.

As to conservatives, sorry, they just want control of
different things.

Consider Libertarians. They want control of nothing and to
dismantle the present controls.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (27)
To: Virginia Cramer 20 May 94 02:32:10
Subject: AIDS Stats

VC> Why is it that people continually equate homosexuals with
VC> child molesters?

Why does NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)
march in all the gay parades? What other type of organization
would form around a criminal activity? Who but gays would permit
people advocating criminal child molestation to join in their
parade?

VC> Unless a person is both, they are not comparable. Most
VC> homosexuals have relationships with consenting adults.
VC> Child molesters, on the other hand, force themselves on
VC> innocent children, whether by aggressive or passive means.
VC> I accept homosexuality but I will never accept child
VC> molestation.

And the organizers of Gay Rights parades give them an
opportunity to promote criminal child molestation.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Any answer over three words is no.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (29)
To: Mark Whalen 20 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: ALL YOU NON-SMOKERS,я

MW> Hey, ditto! An intelligent message! Smokers are drug
MW> addicts. I was hooked for sixteen years. I have done some
MW> things in my life I am proud of, but nothing greater that
MW> escaping tobacco.

A 12 step program, right?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (31)
To: All 16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

Snuck One Passed You
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994. The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights. Sounds reasonable does it not? Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
What does that mean really? For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people. Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women. There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states. Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small. And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
Of course it won’t go downhill overnight. At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs. There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote. I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing. The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
It happened. They got away with another one. What next?


* RM 1.3 01261 * The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (32)
To: Seth Esrig 14 May 94 17:26:10
Subject: ASSAULT WEAPON IDIOCY

SE> The right wingers state they want big-magazine semi-auto .223,
SE> .308s, military style weapons for the defense of their freedoms.
SE> But I agree with Kurt Saxon who states that every American need
SE> only be armed with a 12guage pump, .38 police special revolver,
SE> and a .30-06 bolt action rifle. I would add a .22LR bolt action
SE> target rifle to the list, perhaps a .22WMR hunting rifle, and
SE> replace the ’06 with a 30-30 lever for those who don’t like the
SE> recoil. The brands amd models that are the most rugged and
SE> reliable also happen to be among the cheapest, such as the
SE> Mossberg 500 shotguns or the Winchester Sportsman rifles. The
SE> arguments against the military style weapons are that they
SE> require much more practice time and ammo to learn to use
SE> properly, cost much more to buy, require more involved
SE> maintanance due to their semi-auto action, and are more likely to
SE> put the owner on the wrong side of the law merely by their
SE> ownership. They give a false sense of security to the idiots who
SE> believe in the “spray and pray” method of home/community defense.
SE> How many of America’s semi-auto owners have ever bothered to
SE> sight in a rifle, take it down and clean it, or managed to hit a
SE> paper target at 50 yards. Based on the subhuman intelligence of
SE> the urban gang-bangers who own most of them, I’d say not many.

Whom do you think you are lecturing?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (35)
To: Ann Ross 18 May 94 02:30:10
Subject: Best in 12 years on BBS’

AR> -=> Quoting Michael Shirley to Ann Ross <=-

AR> First, let me say in 12 years (off and on) I have
AR> less than half a dozen times saved or printed a
AR> message found in any echo. All three of your’s are
AR> printed and will be referred to oftimes. I
AR> sincerely wish to converse with you as your mind is
AR> extremely interesting.

That is like praying to god for justice.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (36)
To: Mike Ringgold 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

MR> MG> SV> Typical breeder reply.
MR> MG>
MR> MG> I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
MR> MG> breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

MR> That was meant to offend me. To me it is a compliment.
MR> Without breeders he would not be here. (nice thought)

Now you are trying to spread the blame.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (38)
To: Scot Vertullo 16 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101

SV> > SV> Yup.
SV> >
SV> > SV> Typical breeder reply.
SV> >
SV> > I do not understand the “breeder” response as without
SV> > breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

SV> Damn right. I do have one question though… How come you
SV> “breeders” keep producing us homosexshuuls? 🙂

Don’t really know. The latest research suggests it is a
birth defect of some sort that results in incomplete development
of a parts of the brain.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (39)
To: All 15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

[paraphrased]

Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay’s buttocks
could be worth up to $500,000. They say he is sitting on a gold
mine.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (43)
To: Virag Andras 13 May 94 15:31:10
Subject: CLINTON’S SERB SCRIPT

VA> PS> MG> Bill Clinton’s statements to the Serbs are based upon
VA> PS> MG> Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
VA> PS> MG> “None shall pass!”

VA> Then why do they pass. All of ’em know the answers????????????

You need to see the money. They pass in the movie too but
the knight loses both arms and legs while claiming he hasn’t been
hurt and threatening to bite of a kneecap at the end.

VA> PS> The only thing that really hacks me off about this
VA> PS> country’s treatment of the Serbian situation is our
VA> PS> saber-rattling. We’ve made a few airstrikes, but we
VA> PS> haven’t done anything conclusive. Clinton needs to learn
VA> PS> that just standing behind a podium and making threats is
VA> PS> not going to stop ANYONE, and that if he’s really serious
VA> PS> about flattening the bad guys, he’d better quit talking
VA> PS> about it and just do it.

VA> MG> It is fun to kill people. Just ask Billie Jeff. As we
VA> MG> have no purpose or objective there (the UN may or may not)
VA> MG> we have no business being there.

VA> Look. I’m a Hungarian, I live here, right next to the
VA> serbs. Actually I’ve been a soldier, when the war started
VA> out. I’ve been in the ‘firsts to go if they come’ troops.
VA> And I didn’t question that the americans or UN has
VA> anything to do here, I just wanted them to stop what those
VA> stupid exYugos were (and are) doing. And I also thought
VA> that they shouldn’t just speak about the peace, not only
VA> plea for it, but do something for it. Why? Because I was
VA> afraid. You sure don’t know how weak is the Hungarian
VA> ‘army’ is. About 50% of the military things we have, has
VA> seen the WWII. The rest is also made of crap. The time
VA> when I was a soldier we were 3, 4 times weaker than the
VA> exYugoslavian army. I know that that’s ‘none of America’s
VA> business’ but just think about this: those people are just
VA> the same as the old Scottish people. ‘I hate You, I will
VA> kill You, rape Your women, kill Your children, but look
VA> there comes the British, let’s go kick them in the
VA> butt…’. And they go, kill the British, and keep on
VA> killing each other. Does it makes sense? Now don’t forget,
VA> that these people are Slavonic. And the Slavonic people
VA> are really mad. There’s something bad with their head.
VA> They just don’t think and do anything, following the
VA> logical way. And actually I am not the only one to be
VA> afraid, and counting on Your help. I don’t know how many
VA> civilian had been killed by the US army, but I think they
VA> made much more less, then the serbs themselves. And I
VA> think, that destroying military targets is not bad. They
VA> should do it more faster. Faster and more faster. You know
VA> how high the Hungarian (and europian), crime level became
VA> since the breaking out of the war? Almost every second
VA> crime is related to a former Yugoslavian citizen…

I am not sure where you are going with all of this but I
will point out we have not even been asked by the people under
attack to help. I do not know if they have asked anyone but
certainly they have not asked us. If they asked the UN they
should have known better.

If you are concerned about being attacked the US can supply
you with whatever you need and arrange long term financing for
you. All you have to do is ask.

However if you are saying you folks are not willing to make
the effort to defend yourselves I would suggest you learn to
speak Yugoslavian.

VA> PS> However, I am not in support of the United States alone
VA> PS> getting involved. The UN was founded to put a stop to
VA> PS> the kind of mess that’s going on in what used to be
VA> PS> Yugoslavia, and they need to go in there and do it,
VA> PS> instead of the US playing the cowboy in the white hat.

VA> But they don’t do anything, just walking around, and when
VA> one of them gets killed, saying ‘tsk, tsk, bad boy, don’t
VA> you do it again please, or I’ll put you in the corner,
VA> OK?’, and keep talking…

That is what the UN is all about, nothing.

VA> MG> I am not aware the UN has an issue in Bosnia either. I
VA> MG> know of no place in its charter where it says there shall
VA> MG> be no war. The UN and the US for that matter screwed up
VA> MG> royally recognizing all the new little countries before the
VA> MG> dust had settled. Now they have not the wisdom to
VA> MG> recognize a diplomatic error.

VA> But someone must stop those crazy people, don’t you
VA> think???

Are you saying you want to buy modern weapons to do it?

They have not been stopped for the last 400 years. They
appear to schedule a slaughter like this every seventy years or
so. I have looked into this. I was exchanging messages with
someone in Split on the subject. The issues involved are simply
“too hard” to choose a side. Unfortunately the US and the UN
chose a side against the current losers with the arms embargo.


* RM 1.3 01261 * 6 dead, 22 wounded, a law against guns. Some excuse.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (44)
To: All 18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

United States Constitution

Article I

Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and
paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he
!!!!!

was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority
!!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time;
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.

=====

It is a fine line between “shall be” and “already be” an
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United
States. All attorneys are officers of the court and under their
own jurisdiction.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (45)
To: All 20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?

Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski? Robert Bennett is
negotiating with Bill Clinton’s staff to reduce the charges
against Rostinkowski. Am I the only person who sees a problem
with this?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (46)
To: Jackie Bradbury 15 May 94 02:59:10
Subject: Constitutional admenment

JB> I think the AG should be elected the same as the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez, but independently and by popular vote only (no
JB> electoral college). That way, you get a real independent
JB> AG who may be from a different party than the Prez/Vice
JB> Prez.

But who is responsible to the president unless you are
suggesting there be the creation of a fourth branch of
government.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (47)
To: All 13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission

I have been remiss over the last year or so.

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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (55)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: Different strokes

JB> MG> JB> But, I’ll just add that I’m a short little squirt myself.
JB> MG> JB> And men’s ankles (and knees) don’t get _me_ all hot and
JB> MG> JB> bothered… 🙂
JB> MG>
JB> MG> What does?

JB> Now, Matt, I told you a long time ago… lots of money! 🙂

Libertarian!

JB> Hubby does… although he isn’t my “type”.

Married beneath yourself obviously.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (56)
To: Bert Byfield 15 May 94 03:03:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

BB> Clinton ADMITTED he was responsible for the murders? When
BB> does he go to trial? Isn’t this America where we are all
BB> equal under the law? Charlie Manson killed less than ten
BB> people. Clinton killed 90. Clinton should have his day in
BB> court. Or is murder legal for the government now?

Yes,


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (57)
To: Gary Steinweg 15 May 94 03:04:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited

GS> To be really fair, he didn’t actually kill those 80 people,
GS> he just raced with Reno to take responsibility, then
GS> decided that ladies first was a polite policy. He did feel
GS> their pain, though.

Actually after Reno taking responsibility and him waffling
Limbaugh berated him for an entire day to stand up and take
responsibility. He did the next day.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (58)
To: Martin Eble 15 May 94 03:05:10
Subject: environment

ME> AH> Are regulations designed to protect the environment too
ME> AH> strict, too lenient, or just right? *adh*

ME> Depends on whether you’re

ME> a snail darter

ME> a sucking insect

ME> or a taxpayer.

So now you hold there is a difference between a snail
darter, a politician and a taxpayer.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (69)
To: All 18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Florida HRS Harassment Starts

In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved. The
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.
This was a he. His name was not obtained; he offered no
identification.

The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms.
Giwer’s aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the
property for not having a current tag. This is not illegal
within the City of Dunedin. Both her and her aunt live at the
house. No notification was ever delivered to the house.

The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was
responsible. The party was unaware Ms. Giwer’s mother is also an
owner of the property. When informed of this he suggested if he
looked into the mother’s file he would find a similar
notification. He was unable to account for the coincidence he
was involved in.

His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow
the vehicle. He was given no such agreement. He was informed
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own
decision and would be his responsibility.

Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared
incompetant aunt. I can only assume it was a fruitful
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Constitution is not a technicality.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (70)
To: All 10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0754 – Privacy-U
———————————————————————–

As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust
at the idea of mercenaries known. Of course we can write our
elected representatives — we can also piss up a rope and
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our
postal system.

The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of
America in their regard.

A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in
Washington DC. If you are one of those who believes we learned
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more
direct approach is desirable.

First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong. I have
not looked into the postage nor its form of government — so that
it gets to the right person (I don’t think Chief of Police will
cut it.)

Second is the following. This is the highest ranking Hong
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting
such letters to the right person — implying she did not know the
right person either — but I trust her suggestion.

I am composing a letter that will request their police be
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in
combat. (Lay on the gory descriptions here. If anyone has any
good ones please post them.)

I will also include a reference that I am opposing the
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters
to Congress.

As reference for any letter you might be interested in
writing here is the citation of interest.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

A DECLARATION

By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

He is at this time, transporting large Armies of
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation,
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Child abuse experts do not reproduce.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (74)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:17:10
Subject: gun-control

GR> The assault rifles being banned are cheap and concealable.

You are very stupid.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Torah! Torah! Torah!” A battle cry to frighten Arabs.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (79)
To: All 13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!

*********** Original To: STEVEN GLADIN
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0106 – Civil Liber-F
———————————————————————–

SG> Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational
SG> fears of people that he does not know, that George should
SG> be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if
SG> his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.
SG> In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

Speaking of Florida’s infamous Baker Act it is ten days from
the following letter.

To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower
of another woman. We have on child together, that being our only
serious connection. There is NO exaggeration in anything that
follows. This letter was mailed on the date indicated. There
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * If you think health care is expensive now, wait til its free
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (81)
To: All 17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

$1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless
in the US.

In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless
in the US.

On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are
600,000 homeless in the US.

It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the
largest number of homeless possible.

3000000 | X
| X
2700000 | X
| X
2400000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
2100000 | X
| X
1800000 | X
| X
1500000 |—————-X—————————————–
| X
1200000 | X
| X
900000 | X
| X
600000 |—————-X—————————————X-
| X X
300000 | X X
| X X
0 | X X X
|———————————————————-

S C C
n e i
i n s
d s n
e u e
r s r
o
1 B s
9 u
8 r 1
7 e 9

a 9
u 4

The swings are enormous. The only difference between
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different
asses. Of course the Cisneros’ ass hasn’t been burned yet.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I do not have an ego. I am right.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (89)
To: Bill Bauer 15 May 94 03:16:10
Subject: Important numbers

BB> … *** BILL BAUER ***
BB> … *** MODERATOR ***
BB> … *** RIGHTS_RONGS ECHO ***

Speaking of which my sysop is also a REC or some such and
tells me you have not petitioned for backbone status.


* RM 1.3 01261 * If my penis could kill, I wouldn’t need a gun.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (94)
To: All 16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0019 – Law-F
———————————————————————–

For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is
false or misleading. I have cut it down to the relevant
essentials. Naomi Giwer is my first wife. As of this date I
have received no response to this second letter.

This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like
proceedings in the State of Florida. It is noted the same agency
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with
infected sores only two months ago.

I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the
finding public if there were any waves caused. To paraphrase, it
is in her best interests this be kept private. That implies
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they
would. It was a lovely threat.

4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor’s Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer. In doing
so the state has refused to release the “damning” document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal. Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.

As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence. She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people. The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level. I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud. I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response. This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance. Your attention
to this matter is requested.

Respectfully

Matthias M. Giwer

For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479


* RM 1.3 01261 * Reconcile and Reconcile are clintonyms.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (100)
To: All 12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–

If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism. If
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please
join me there.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (106)
To: George Rudzinski 19 May 94 02:23:10
Subject: Memorial Day

GR> And they certainly aren’t against soldiers. The
GR> Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded to
GR> homosexuals.

How many? By name.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (107)
To: William Morgan 19 May 94 02:25:10
Subject: Michael Fay Caning

WM> And every day, more and more people are learning why
WM> Charles Bronson’s “Death Wish” movies were so popular!
WM> Remember, an armed society is a polite society.

And it is the responsibility of good citizens to create good
criminals.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Justic, unlike revenge, is best served warm and bleeding.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (108)
To: All 10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper’s demotion captures attention of FBI

The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.

In an article in the April-May edition of the American
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited “over a
hundred” sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of
Arkansas. His remarks corroborated the accounts of other
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

Trooper Brown’s transfer was to have taken effect yesterday,
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

“He is upset, no question about that,” said his attorney,
Justin Thornton of Washington.

Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said: “I don’t think that is
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view.”

Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state. He
said yesterday he is “distressed, to be quite candid and
conservative. I am not happy at all.”

The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has
had with the FBI. As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

Once described by his commander as the “best investigator I
have,” Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.
“I haven’t been in uniform in nearly 15 years,” he said. “This
is incredible.”

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary’s Cattle

In this week’s New Republic, James Glassman examined first
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s trading record with Refco and
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating,
breaking margin calls.

“She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a
well-off businessman who … was in almost precisely the same
situation as Rodham Clinton,” Mr. Glassman reported.

During the time of Mrs. Clinton’s celebrated trading, Refco
“sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than
$100,000 — ‘even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I
was earning a six-figure income.’

“[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was
earning a lot less. Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:
‘How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Beware the low profit.” Giwer 1:1
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (109)
To: All 20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation.
in California found that when controlled for variables such as
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on
death row for killing blacks.

Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

When he considered the number of victims, whether the
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (110)
To: All 20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed

Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months
because of their potentially “embarassing” content.

Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp.
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual,
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they “violate their
legal obligation to run over the documents” under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said
yesterday.

“Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health
effects from passive smoking,” Jane G. Gravelle, senior
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found
“some uncertainties” in the EPA’s estimate of the numbers of
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

“I don’t want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect … an uncertain effect
… and it’s hard to detect small things,” Ms. Gravelle said in
an interview after the Senate hearing.

Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly
charged that the EPA’s findings were based on flawed science and
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after
Ms. Gravelle’s testimony.

But Ms. Gravelle said her research group’s conclusion that
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant
health risks from passive smoking “flows from an analysis of the
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology
of disease-causing agents.”

Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking
could have been as low as three per year.

Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking,
the congressional researcher noted.

Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the
effects of environmental smoke — using the amounts of a tobacco
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine — showed the effect
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day. Such
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker
deaths, she said.

This method “assumed a linear relationship between the
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure,” she said. But there is
“some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case
of lung cancer,” she said.

In that case, the “estimate would be only three people
rather than 600 people,” she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents,
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

{Enough said– mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Rush Limbaugh is too humble. — Matt Giwer
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (111)
To: All 20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed

The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat’s first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Yassar Arafat has yet to name all
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the
Gaza and Jericho government.

The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei
Karta sect — the name means Guardians of the City — a group
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism
and the state of Israel.

Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem’s
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far
this time. Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

“He’s going to hurt bad,” said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

{An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch. His beard is
approximately 3 inches long. He is going to hurt. — mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (112)
To: All 20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel’s smoking ban excludes few public places

A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco
shops and prisons.

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the “most important
legislation in disease prevention in years” and cited the
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

Ironically, the subcommittee’s passage of the bill came one
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

{Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number. —
mg}


* RM 1.3 01261 * Life’s purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (113)
To: All 21 May 94 15:41:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0216 – Debate-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 17 May 1994

Whitewater-papers suit to get earlier court dates

Rep. Jim Leach, who has unsuccessfully sought
Whitewater-Madison documents for five months, and lawyers for two
federal agencies he sued for the records yesterday agreed to
accelerated court dates for legal arguments in the case.

Mr. Leading, the leading proponent in Congress for hearings
in the Whitewater-Madison affair, said in a lawsuit filed last
Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Washington that efforts by
his office to get the records had been rebuffed since December
because of their potentially embarrassing” content.

Fiske OKs review of Treasury papers

Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. said yesterday he has
given the White House permission to review Treasury Department
documents detailing contacts with regulators over the
Whitewater-Madison affair.

Mr. Fiske described the action as a “limited step” to allow
the White House to prepare for congressional hearings …

{I presume this is why Clinton liked Fiske. — mg}

Supreme Court rules on guns and garbage

The Supreme Court played referee yesterday in
jurisdictional disputes over garbage, guns and Ellis Island

For people convicted of serious federal crimes, only the
federal government can restore their constitutional right to
possess guns, the high court said.

{{{{{Can ANYONE find this? It would be a finding in favor of the
2nd amendment even though it does take away states powers in
civil rights. — mg}}}}}

INSIDE Politics

Perk coincidence

An airport official told Roll Call it is “just
coincidental,” but the wording of the signs designating reserved
airport parking for Congress has been changed to remove
references to members.

Until three weeks ago the signs read “Reserved Parking/
Supreme Court Justices/ Members of Congress/ Diplomatic Corps.”
Now they say only “Restricted Parking/ Authorized Users Only,”
says Roll Call.

The change went into effect April 25, five days after the
Senate defeated a warmly contested measure calling for the
removal of the reserved lots.

Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and leader of the
effort to remove the lots, called the sign change a “stupid”
effort to “deceive the public.”


* RM 1.3 01261 * “The media is biased toward the left.” Bill Clinton
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (115)
To: All 24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

What Democracy Is
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote. As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote. I would suggest that
is garbage.
Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends. A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved. Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever. If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever. If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner. Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards. What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result. Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work. What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting. It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote. Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
I find myself arguing in the negative at this point. My
points are

1) Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

2) The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus. I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written. I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
A long discussion and more than a little digression. The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people. It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources. It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country — you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more. When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%. The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Tonya Harding, Spokeswoman for Full Contact Figure Skating.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (116)
To: All 19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Origins of Morality
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research. What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them. Morality is another.
We know we evolved from social animals. Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups. It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages. We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth. A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
A moral code is simply what permits social life. The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language. All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans. We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human. We do work to save them from it.
The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system. They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder. It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class. The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language. Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point? I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality. I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language. I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior. In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey. The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following. The use of force is inherently evil.
Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force. It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
Government has become out codification of our moral
standards. It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people. What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil. It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
There is the key concept I have been building toward. Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil. (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil. Honest thought does
not work that way.) We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance. Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the “good” any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for “his own
good.”
Notice that this is nothing new. But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments. We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified. We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case. Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good. The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Health Insurance is expensive now. Wait until it is free.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (117)
To: Charles Hill 13 May 94 04:02:10
Subject: PGP in progress

CH> The pertinent Rule of the Conference saith thusly:

CH> “PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) ™ and other encryption
CH> systems: Entire messages ought not to be encoded; however,
CH> until such time as FidoNet may choose to establish
CH> contravening policy in this matter, exchange of public keys
CH> as part of a legitimate message shall be permitted.”
CH>
CH> This particular Rule specifically permits public keys, and
CH> does not really bar encrypted messages. The original
CH> intent of the author (don’t you wish these Constitutional
CH> scholars had it so easy?) was to keep people from
CH> encrypting everything they posted in the conference, since
CH> it adds a lot of unreadable stuff to everybody’s mail
CH> packets. Clearly this is not your intention, so I see no
CH> reason to object to it.
CH>
CH> So mote it be….cgh

If I may add…

Giwerworld on Lucifernet reaches every place in the country
for a short LD cost at worst. This conference has no rules,
period, and encrypted messages are not within the notice of the
deity in charge of the conference, namely me. Jimmy Pearson will
confirm upon request.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Guns cause crime and cars cause vehicular homicide.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (118)
To: William Childress 13 May 94 15:46:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION

WC> MG> Are you saying Judas hung himself by this feet so that he
WC> MG> could fall “headlong”? Was he an early bungee jumper?

WC> I take it that you are indicating that the events
WC> listed are impossible!

I was pointing out there are contradictory, infallible
statements in the recountings.

However, I can’t count how many
WC> times people have offered similar arguments regarding
WC> biblical documentation. Regardless, a bright individual
WC> ought to be able to come up with at least a single
WC> plausible solution to the dilemma. In other words, toss
WC> your prejudice aside for a minute, and let’s say that both
WC> passages are correct. After all, this admission on your
WC> part would not substantiate the whole Bible. Therefore,
WC> what can you come up with to satisfy both descriptions?

Bungee jumping. Maybe Yeshua gave him the bungee cords. He
was god wasn’t he?

WC> Consider this though, if you fail to offer any solution,
WC> then anyone posting a plausible solution will cause others
WC> to seriously question your intellect. And, why should
WC> people even consider future arguments posted by an
WC> intellectually impaired individual?

You are the one who has to support infallible
contradictions, not me. I could care less.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Intruder? Shoot first, then talk.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (125)
To: Ken Pangborn 18 May 94 17:09:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> KP> Yes, as we have seen, we have the technological
KP> KP> ability to destroy the planet and all life on it. Do we have
KP> KP> the developed wisdom to survive it?

KP> LT> We cannot destroy this planet. It can destroy us, however.

KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> uninhabitable.

Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
fault.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (127)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 02:31:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> LT>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear weapons in the
KP> LT>KP> arsenals were to be detonated at roughly the same time, the
KP> LT>KP> Earth would become a second sun. I would think that having an
KP> LT>KP> ambient temperature of about 140,000 degrees Celsius would
KP> LT>KP> make the planet roughly uninhabitable.

KP> LT> The secret woid is “theory”

KP> Pretty solid theiry Linda. Want to put it to the
KP> test? Seems like our President does…..

Pretty solid crap although not in line for solid waste
disposal.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Tonya Harding, Spokeswoman for Full Contact Figure Skating.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (130)
To: Ken Pangborn 19 May 94 15:22:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> MG>KP> weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> MG>KP> the same time, the Earth would become a second sun. I
KP> MG>KP> would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> MG>KP> 140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> MG>KP> uninhabitable.

KP> MG> Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
KP> MG>fault.

KP> Again Matt, are you willing to put it to the test?
KP> As I recall, at one point the Soviets had something like
KP> 37,000 nukes of 50 MT or more, not counting MIRV capacity.
KP> And the U.S. had some greater number. I’m not sure what
KP> 70,000+ 50mt bombs would do if detonated simultaneously. I
KP> imagine they might make a little bit of a mess. You of
KP> course would be out with your Raybans and surfer suit!

You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have to
recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature increase
be apparent.

We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
math leading to the prediction.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (133)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 01:58:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> You claimed there was such a theory. You merely have
KP> MG> to recount the theory. In that recounting of the theory the
KP> MG> mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature
KP> MG> increase be apparent.

KP> Try reading Carl Sagan’s writings on nuclear winter
KP> and the nuclear armageddon. He and some of the others make
KP> a compelling case for nuclear anihilation.

Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
crap?

He couldn’t get Kuwait right but of course he can get
nuclear winter right. You have a touching faith in a TV
personality.

KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
theory I expected nothing better from you.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Life’s purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (135)
To: Ken Pangborn 20 May 94 13:34:10
Subject: Satanism

KP> MG> Are you referring to Carl “never been right” Sagan? One of
KP> MG>his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
KP> MG>He was dead wrong there. Why would you pay attention to other
KP> MG>crap?

KP> Matt you have a way about you.

So does Sagan, wrong.

KP> MG>KP> MG> We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> MG>KP> As anal retentive as ever, I see.

KP> MG> As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
KP> MG>theory I expected nothing better from you.

KP> As usual, Giwer deals with the issues.

Please prove me wrong and present the theory so we can go
over the math.


* RM 1.3 01261 * To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (136)
To: Michael Funk 10 May 94 21:01:10
Subject: SCHINDLER’S LIST

MF> MG> So if you have three hours and the cash to drop on what is
MF> MG> undoubtedly the worst movie every to be given an academy
MF> MG> award don’t miss it.

MF> Nope, you weren’t the last to see the movei…I will
MF> be!..And now I Think I won’t even do that if this movie is
MF> that bad. I have the book, so I’ll read it instead.

I have not read the book. Remember I am commenting upon it
as a movie. If you know everything around it you may enjoy it.
But this is like an event that happened in the course of the
Chinese civil war of 1859 (?) without every giving you one word
about that war or any context within it.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the right to be free
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (137)
To: All 19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise

AA> “Choosing to Die”
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42; Katel, Peter
AA> Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and
AA> regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS
AA> sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had
AA> another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own
AA> veins. Delgado is one of a group of young people known as
AA> frikis–“freaks” or “rockers”–who claim that they
AA> intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting
AA> themselves with tainted blood. Various sources have named
AA> more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they
AA> injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died. According
AA> to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.
AA> A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is
AA> possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV
AA> from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS
AA> among the group indicates that their explanation is a
AA> truthful one. “There is no other explanation for someone
AA> dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection,”
AA> he says. Cuba’s policy at the time was to quarantine
AA> anyone testing HIV-positive. For the frikis, life in an
AA> AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air
AA> conditioning, an absence of police–luxuries the average
AA> Cuban did not enjoy.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Any answer over three words is no.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (153)
To: All 23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Reverse Vigilance
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance. The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance. Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability. Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges. In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press. Criticism is generally
limited to political lines. It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power. It is the prize of
the political process. And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies. “Everyone knows” the government is in control of every
thing. It is a simple belief to play upon.
The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail. There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out “it wasn’t this summer but it is
coming” sitting right there.
Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption? Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour. Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail? Haven’t you
always wondered why the most important mail is late? Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and “everyone knows” how many
employees they have.
Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns. Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill. This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better. All that would be needed
would be the working title.
The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars. The people already have little confidence
in the government. There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack. The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort. After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack. And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The most banned user in the known universe.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (156)
To: All 15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy! 01

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: SIMON JESTER
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/09/94 – 0002477
********** On: MERCOPUS – 0099 – Law & Disor-F
———————————————————————–

Picked this up while cruising the “highway”, and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd. All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there’s a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do.

By Brock N. Meeks

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: “send
clipper.index”. – The Editors of WIRED]

If privacy isn’t already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it’s about to be. The panel members didn’t try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
“front load” the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream.

But these are tools the “good guys” said would be used only to catch the “bad
guys.” Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement’s proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX.

There’s just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, “Right now most
law enforcement personnel don’t have any idea what the NII is,” this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel.

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would “help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes.” Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney’s office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies.

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press.

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters’ deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot’s NAFTA-inspired “giant sucking sound.” This was the dull
“thump” of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender.

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as “proactive”
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
“have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now,” Walker said.

For today’s wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to “no big difference,” he said. Besides, “it
would save time and money.”

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. “Frankly, I don’t see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority],” he said. With a straight
face.

It’s Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn’t mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, “it only means we’ll catch fewer criminals,” he said.

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of “just putting the
bad guys in jail,” as James Settle, head of the FBI’s National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy.

“Because of law enforcement’s concerns (regarding digital technologies), we’re
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities,” Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency “is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network.”

Go ahead. Read it again.

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes.

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls “unprecedented”
is that – if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way – the design of the national telecommunications
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (157)
To: Ken Wiebe 18 May 94 03:25:10
Subject: Socialists

KW> JH> Gimme a break! It is the same stupid “love it or leave
KW> JH> it”/”like it or lump it” philosophy any way you look at
KW> JH> it.

KW> As an anti-smoke legislation supporter, I don’t really
KW> expect you to understand the difference. Suffice it to say
KW> that restaurants are a dime a dozen, and very common, free
KW> countries are rare as hen’s teeth.

Unfortunately the US is a Fascist country that assumes the
right to control free enterprise soley on the grounds that it is
free.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Si vis pacem, parabellum.” If you would see peace, prepare
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (158)
To: Scot Vertullo 20 May 94 18:32:10
Subject: Stockpiling guns…яяяяяя

SV> > If you were confining the subject to weapons, then
SV> > you should have said stockpiling weapons, and not simply
SV> > stockpiling.

SV> I did.

Which makes no difference. They were in their home. They
had a right to own guns and a right to be in the gun business.
Do you have an objection to that?

SV> > Are you in the belief that churches should not be
SV> > in the business of buying, and selling weapons, because
SV> > that is how it sounds.

SV> Bingo! 🙂 Why should they? Unless the definition has
SV> changed, I believe that churches exist to save souls; not
SV> deal with weapons of death.

Is this part of the definition that you would impose upon all
religions or would you permit people to hold alternate religious
convictions? What would be your means of enforcement?


* RM 1.3 01261 * None of my opinions are humble.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (159)
To: Dave Hankins 10 May 94 21:47:10
Subject: Subsidies

DH> If you would, throw up your public key on GiwerWorld
DH> for me. I have some info you may be very interested
DH> in. I believe you already have mine… Thanks.

Should be there soon.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
— FidoPCB v1.5 beta-‘j’
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (160)
To: All 24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

The Federal Reserve
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money. I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand. At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand. Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline. What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs. The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB. I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money. We all have done one or the other over the years. That
is all that is happening. What is of interest is how it is
happening.
When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody’s rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate. This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk. It is nothing you don’t know about.
The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market. A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
Of course you have. If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate. The only difference is the way it
is presented. One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property. If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company. You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income. Do not kid yourself it is anything else. You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years. If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income. Income for the government equals
revenues. Revenues equals taxes.
In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.
So what?
OK here is a “furrinstance.” Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income? It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate. That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone’s opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings. I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner. And thus the crux of
the issue.
Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
A long question, too long. The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs. It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be. That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power. I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country. Perhaps I missed
something. I am open to correction.
The world has gotten more complicated? Fine. Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB. Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB. And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
Certainly it would be a rocky transition. The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power. They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation. If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them. We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in “managing” our economy to do it.
It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression. That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (169)
To: All 23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Twilight of Liberty
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world. Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing. There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution. Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals. Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause. Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government. Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
Should we lose it can it arise again? The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around. Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior. That is always a possibility. All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy. Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government. Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
I consider these valid questions. I hold they can only be
answered by testing. This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed. The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government. This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits. We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty. We now elect our “monarchs” for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life. That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits. The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes. Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it. A
monarchy can be quite as limited. The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta. Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers. It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea. And the opportunity took a
revolution.
A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question. It is only a matter of
timing. It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life. As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
We are coming to the time of making that choice.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Dr. Gruber, get a life.” Dr. Herbert West
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (170)
To: Jim Higgins 15 May 94 03:41:10
Subject: Ultimatum

JH> If she can turn out 2 million in uniform and armed she will
JH> come thru OK. At least her cause probably will; she likely
JH> will be killed under strange circumstances. If she turns
JH> out only 20,000 then we are all in dead serious effing deep
JH> trouble.

2 million. The entire metro area counting every one has
about that many. So she has a temporary doubling of the local
population. I suggest they bring shovels and toilet paper as
there are not enough toilet facilities for that many.

20,000 people, 5000 cars. Where do they park?

Any reasonable number of people to try to do this is can be
handled by the DC police.

JH> Sensei say, flee if you can the confrontation you are not
JH> sure you can win. If we declare “war” against the
JH> bastards, we better be ready to back it up with everything
JH> we have. The people are not mad enough yet to do that IMO.
JH> Despite all those “we’re right behind you, Linda” voices,
JH> she would be well advised to keep track of how far behind
JH> her they really are. Bring binoculars.

More realistically a guerrilla war is the only one
possible. Shut down all federal offices except social security
and the post office — there is no need to make enemies, besides
the cash flow is needed. Every state or local agency that
cooperates with the Feds is shut down.

The last thing to do is put an armed force in the field.
That is saved until we have the strength to win.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (171)
To: Phillip Jones 15 May 94 03:56:10
Subject: ultimatum

PJ> BB> Hmmm, it appears to me that you haven’t been reading the
PJ> BB> mail the last couple of days in some of the other echos. It
PJ> BB> would appear that the interest in this subject has indeed
PJ> BB> picked up quite a bit of interest.

PJ> This is the only “general interest” echo I read regularly.
PJ> But I do read 2-3 different newspapers a day, and listen to
PJ> several news broadcasts, and haven’t heardb a peep out of
PJ> those media.

Have you mailed them hard copies?


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (172)
To: Jackie Bradbury 12 May 94 22:52:10
Subject: Unreasonable Searches

JB> MG> I got a little bit more on it. It is apparently
JB> MG> contained in some bill in Congress. I have not found which
JB> MG> bill or where it stands. All info shared.

JB> Keep us informed – after finals (next week), I’m gonna be
JB> so campaign oriented I won’t be thinking of much else.

It is now next week. Are you still alive or simply in
terminal exhaustion. It is unfortunate we have adopted a boot
camp form of education instead of an apprenticeship form.

JB> MG> Lose me now or lose me later. We are passed the point
JB> MG> where there is any hope of turning this around. The only
JB> MG> hope left is that enough people will express their
JB> MG> determination regarding such matters and scare the gov
JB> MG> off.

JB> Y’know, hubby & I are convinced, due to evidence here, on
JB> talk radio, and from just regular folks we meet, we are now
JB> intering a period of “low level panic”. Folks are getting
JB> scared, Matt – and mad. Slowly, surely. One by one.

That is my observation exactly.

JB> MG> Unfortunately that is only putting off the inevitable.

JB> Well, I meant be careful in a smart, Matt Giwer way, not a
JB> stupid Linda Thompson way. I.E., if you’re gonna do it,
JB> stay around long enough to do it right – one HK cop does
JB> not equal one MG, know what I mean?

Don’t worry about that. In a direct confrontation I am
known to be smart in spite of the most devout intentions. I am
working on what to shut down and what to leave operating in the
course of a revolution. For example all (federal) government
buildings are shut down. The IRS is shut down. Social Security
is left open as is the Post Office to deliver the checks.

“A bomb threat a day keeps the workers away.” And relaxes
security to the point where a real bomb goes off. The revolution
will take years, not weeks. 365 bomb threats will make any
security force yawn.

JB> MG> They are up against a disarm populace courtesy of the
JB> MG> British. They have a shock in store for them.

JB> No kidding. BTW: heard today that Bobbies are going to
JB> carry guns in London. Rising crime rate, y’know – is that
JB> _possible_ without guns? (sarcasm intended)

Of course it is foreign, American style violence so it not
really their fault. Obviously they pacified Ireland 400 years
ago.

JB> MG> I will not excuse people failing to think. And from
JB> MG> 2.5 years of driving a cab and plenty of black passenger
JB> MG> who requested me it is only the black “leaders” who are
JB> MG> saying these things. I met a few taking advantage of the
JB> MG> system. Most you could not tell from Walter Williams. And
JB> MG> none of the above had anything good to say about the
JB> MG> “leaders.”

JB> Agreed. We have a black man in the lead for the Republican
JB> nomination in our Congressional District. I’m interested
JB> to see how this turns out.

In 1988 in Virginia I voted for two blacks and that includes
the ex-governor. Wilder talked a good case until he got in
office. (Partisan politics in Virginia [had] little to do with
national party affiliation at the time.)

JB> MG> Between elections get a hack license and meet them.

JB> Y’know, I’ve thought about doing that, but to be honest,
JB> I’d be scared to.

A little street smarts and the company will help you out.
It is the 8th most dangerous profession but that really isn’t all
that high.

JB> MG> JB> I’m not so sure that’s a total loss yet. Give me a couple
JB> MG> JB> more election cycles to decide for sure. But I will agree
JB> MG> JB> that it looks bad.
JB> MG>
JB> MG> I have already given it a couple more election cycles.
JB> MG> You are not required to be an old fart cynic like me. You
JB> MG> are simply invited to name one election that has changed
JB> MG> anything.

JB> Um, Thomas Jefferson’s? Between TJ and Burr? Lincoln’s,
JB> maybe?

Kennedy/Goldwater was my first.

JB> Other than that, no, not one single one – it’s a cumulative
JB> thing that makes for positive change. That’s another
JB> reason why I’m a manager and not a candidate. It’s better
JB> to get 8 good folks or more elected than just myself.

If everyone waits as long as I have they will be like me,
too old to go into the field and the those that are young enough
will still be waiting.

JB> MG> So far as I am aware there are only two Libertarian
JB> MG> candidates in the Tampa Bay area. I don’t see a difference
JB> MG> between real and candidate. Viable? I expect to find out
JB> MG> soon.

JB> Research will tell. I mean a “real” candidate as in “I
JB> want to win”.

Three weeks between an offer to make colorful handouts and
zero response. You can’t argue free but he did not accept the
offer.

JB> MG> There always are. I have a set of political GIFs that
JB> MG> I am looking for distribution cites for. Even in my humble
JB> MG> opinion

JB> Get in touch with Ron Krickenberger of the National LP;
JB> he’s in Atlanta – he’s the LP campaign director. He may be
JB> able to use it or connect you with folks who can.

Will look for him. Do you have a BBS number? I am
surprised I have not heard of him as I am as well connected
BBS-wise in Atlanta as I am in this area.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (173)
To: George Rudzinski 13 May 94 04:12:10
Subject: Waco

GR> DB> Changing the name? They are flashbangs, that’s all.

GR> JW> They were originally called “stun grenades”.

GR> Doesn’t much matter what you call them, they are still
GR> flashbangs.
GR>
GR> If the BATF went into that compound wanting to kill people,
GR> flashbangs wouldn’t be the grenade of choice.

Nor does it matter what you wish to call them. The
certainly rupture ear drums. They certainly can induce fatal
grand mal seizures. They certainly are intended to disorient
people, maybe enough to think the person throwing them means them
harm.

When you are on the receiving or when you are willing to
respond as though they had achieved their intended purpose you
will have something legitimate to post.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (174)
To: All 11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/07/94 – 0001234
********** On: GUNTALK – 0012 – GENPOL
———————————————————————–

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board. The
last message said, “I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid.” I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news. A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists —
men, women, and children. I wondered, “What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?”

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco. I don’t like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what. The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh. And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever. Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson! Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion. Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home. Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War. Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn’t have. The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him. Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them. He was shot at. He ducked back
inside. A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him. This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre. How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk? I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today. There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children. The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them. Is this justice? Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle. It was deliberate. It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI. It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States. It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?

* SLMR 2.1a * Don’t gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
— MMGR v3.52
* GUN-TALK GENeral POLitics Conference


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (177)
To: Ann Ross 19 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: What makes a SIN a Sяяяяя

AR> Da> —–[ First Scot Vertullo Said: ]—–
AR> > As long as I’m not harming others then I have a right to do it. I
AR> > repeat: “If you don’t *like* my homosexuality, tough…adjust to it.”
AR> Da> —–[ My Reply: ]—–

AR> Da> You don’t have a right to spout off about how you are a
AR> Da> homosexual, just as I don’t have the right to spout off
AR> Da> about how I’m straight.

AR> The Constitution gives you both freedom of speech. Learn to
AR> live with it because you canNOT change it.

As you have been corrected before, the Constitution GIVES us
nothing. It prevents the government from infringing pre-existing
rights. That is why it is phrased as it is. But you know that.
You simply enjoy playing the asshole.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (178)
To: All 10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0648 – USA Politic-U
———————————————————————–

[I came across the tail end of something like this and never
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation. I later
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I
was was not arrested.

When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for
I was not for I was not on trial. [seizure of the property of
the innocent]

When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I
was not accused. [imprisonment for being a material witness]

When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge. [Civil rights
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide. [Chicago]

When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.

When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun. [Brady and Feinstein bills]

When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.
[government approved religions]

=====

Many other examples could be presented.

The time is nigh.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Constitution is not perfect. It is better than what we have
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (208)
To: All 24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0250 – FN-FSPEECH
———————————————————————–

12-BBS

A new echo is seeking backbone status. This echo is
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their
BBSing habit. Please request your Sysop to carry it today.


* RM 1.3 01261 * I am Ozyharriet, Family of Families
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (215)
To: All 25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: T-RECALL
*********** Conf: 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

********** Original From: HARRY WANG
* STOLEN * To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
* STUFF * Date/Number: 05/13/94 – 0003631
********** On: T-RECALL – 0255 – FN-RUSHL
———————————————————————–

PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing! Call HCI’s toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible. Since it’s an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call–about 20 cents per minute–80 cents per full length call. Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won’t send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste. 1000, Washington, DC
20005. Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents…you get the idea. Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y’know…)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

– Pedit Ver 1.9a

— ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
* MKNet * Zylink BBS, St. Paul, MN (612)776-1502


* RM 1.3 01261 * “Bill survives Hil attack, two Sec Service Agents injured.”
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (225)
To: All 24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: SOFTWARE
*********** Conf: 0018 – S-DEATH&TAXES
———————————————————————–

The Secret Drug Profile
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination. They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.
They were infallible in their use of this technique. It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades. It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead. We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case. We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the “expert” making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
At least they made their “profile” public.
Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released. The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts. Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
This profile is for drug traffickers. It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets. It has been used against multi-millionaires. It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen. It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage. It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement. In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic. If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
“drug security forces” if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known. After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
We are not as “honest” as the Nazis. We keep our profile a
secret. It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
Of course we must ask if we are any better.

* * * * *

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


* RM 1.3 01261 * Getting even is a moral imperative.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (226)
To: All 24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0012 – Baychat-F
———————————————————————–

Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

David L. Hale, now a government witness in the
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law
enforcement sources.

Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal’s now-defunct Madison Guaranty
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in
1986 to Mr. McDougal’s wife, Susan, the sources said.

Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved. He said
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because
her being a woman would make approval easier.

At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton’s and
Mr. McDougal’s ownership of the Whitewater venture.

Hale’s attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved
in the loan — Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client — knew
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan. He said it
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a
woman as the nominee borrower.

The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty
last month to two counts of defrauding the government. … He
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make
additional loans.

Leach: RTC may fire prober

Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government’s chief
investigator is about to lose her job.

Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

Mrs. Lewis’ belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach
crimes may have been committed.


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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (244)
To: All 24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP

*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: AUTODOC
*********** Conf: 0109 – Debate
———————————————————————–

I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

Pardon me. Don’t we have a vice president? Clinton can
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of
his personal life.


* RM 1.3 01261 * The worst you can do to a free man is kill him.
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