Was the Fire Insane
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <3/28>
In the matter of Waco and the fire at the end. Those
apologizing for the government have put themselves in a no win
situation. Even if the Branch Davidians started the fire it was
the government’s fault.
There are as many common definitions of unbalanced and
insane as there are people to give them. Certainly it means at
the very least the person does something that he would not
otherwise do in a normal state of mind. I think we can all agree
that self immolation is not something one would do in a normal
state of mind.
If we are in agreement at this point then we agree the
Branch Davidians did not want to surrender. That was their
normal state of mind. However, the case against the government
is stronger if you consider that to be an abnormal state of mind.
The government subjected them to psychological warfare to change
their behavior.
This included at least sleep deprivation so far as we know.
There are reports of much more advanced techniques. The
intention was to change their “normal” behavior.
We do know that sleep deprivation can and will drive people
insane. The government presumably accomplished that objective.
They obviously failed in getting them to surrender.
If refusing to surrender was a sane act then the government
intentionally drove them insane. If refusing to surrender was an
insane act the government intentionally added to the problems of
insane people. In either case given the government succeeded in
its intent then even if they started the fire the government is
at fault.
Whether or not the government succeeded or failed in its
intentions is not provable at this time. What we can deal with
is the intention. The intention may have been to surrender but
as this is far from an exact science simply taking the initiative
means taking responsibility for the results.
Not “intending” the results when the action caused it is not
an excuse before the law. Not intending that they suicide is not
an excuse for taking actions that were intended to make them do
what they would not ordinarily do.
We can not replay history nor second guess it. If this were
the apprehension of a wanted criminal rather than an attack upon
a bunch of nobodies the methods would not be in question. That
this may have been an attack upon mentally unbalanced people in
the first place with means to unbalance them further is
inexcusable.
There has to be accountability for this some day. And it is
not to be a set of full pay retirements. This was felony murder
no matter how you look at it. There is no excuse for this on our
country. We can not permit it to happen again
®®юю R_9403 ююЇЇ
+++ююююю r_940330 ююююю+++ — *FIDO AUTO* —
From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1399)
To: All 28 Mar 94 05:56:10
Subject: Gov is still responsible
* RM 1.3 01261 * Were the police at Wal-Mart?
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To: Doug Schiffer 28 Mar 94 05:48:10
Subject: Waco 2 Murder Recordo
DS> MR> Who are YOU to presume that AK-47s are NOT part of God’s
DS> MR> plan. Perhaps true that God is on the side with superior
DS> MR> firepower…
DS> That’s why Jesus said that when somebody slaps you on the
DS> cheek, your supposed to load up your 200 round clip and
DS> blow the mother away.
So far as I am aware the largest clip for an AK-47 is 75
rounds. Where might I find this 200 round clip. I have an AK-47
and I am on a mission from god.
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * 6 dead, 22 wounded, a law against guns. Some excuse.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1401)
To: Jim Higgins 28 Mar 94 05:50:10
Subject: WACO 2 Murder Recordяяяяя
JH> MR> That’s the first I’ve seen of that claim. It doesn’t ring
JH> MR> true– CO goes through gas masks just fine, and kills very
JH> MR> effectively. If they’d been using it, the BDs would have
JH> MR> been dead much earlier.
JH> You are correct. It doesn’t make much sense and I should
JH> have expressed the severe doubt I felt. I am hoping Matt
JH> will expand on it, meanwhile I respond to the “facts”
JH> presented without necessarily believing them. BTW, CO
JH> isn’t inherently a better propellent than compressed air
JH> and it is a lot harder to obtain. The mind boggles to
JH> think someone would go to the trouble to use it. It CAN be
JH> eliminated by the appropriate gas mask though.
Is that what you are after? The second Waco: Big Lie tape
has an FBI type saying that is what was used. A tape right off
of the air as broadcast. It does appear to be a bit of a guess
but as the original statement was that it was propelled by
extremely flammable acetone as a solvent I would suggest this is
a poor cover of the first information.
Now what can we trust? NOTHING the government has put into
publication. The formal report was discredited by the government
during the trial as being only “for public consumption.”
One has to wonder which public they were referring to when
the objected to it being used as evidence.
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1402)
To: All 28 Mar 94 15:26:10
Subject: News you may have miss 01
*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–
from the Washington Times
24 March 1994
Lies by panel, possible conflicts by Hillary emerge in
health suit
The White House misrepresented the makeup of its secret
health care task force and the influence of special interest
groups wielded, and it backdated travel vouchers to conform to a
federal court order, now court documents filed yesterday show.
In addition, first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, the task
force chairwoman, may have violated conflict of interest rules by
including the vice president of a health care firm the Clintons
held stock in at the time, according to documents filed in the
U.S. District Court here by groups suing the task force.
Clinton demotes associate counsel
White House Associate Counsel William H. Kennedy III was
demoted last night for mishandling hundreds of White House pass
investigations.
Mr. Kennedy, who turns 43 on Tuesday, also had been under
scrutiny for paying “nanny taxes” two years late.
SBA cash trail leads to second Whitewater deal
Federal investigators have targeted a failed 810-acre real
estate project near Little Rock — purchases in 1986 by the
Whitewater Development Corp. — as the direct beneficiary of a
portion of a $300,000 government-backed loan linked to President
Clinton.
…
It had not been disclosed that Whitewater — owned by Mr.
Clinton and Mr. McDougal and their wives — was directly involved
in buying and developing properties other than the 230-acre
Whitewater site along the White River in Northern Arkansas.
Investigators also are trying to determine if Lorance
Heights, in woodlands 15 miles southeast of Little Rock, was used
as a Whitewater conduit for the illegal diversion of funds to
Arkansas politicians, federal law enforcement sources said.
They said as much as $250,000 in profits from the cutting of
timber at the site — in violation of deed restrictions — may be
missing. It is not clear where the money went, and records
showing how it was used or where it was deposited have not been
located.
Elders offers church not apology
Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders intends to make no apology
to churchmen offended by her “difference of opinion” on
homosexuals, but she dissociated her views from President
Clinton’s yesterday after the archbishop of Washington complained
about her to the White House.
Hall renews fast to help hungry
President Clinton and 15 members of Congress ear going
without food to draw attention to the plight of people who are
hungry every day, Rep. Tony P. Hall said yesterday.
Inside the Beltway
Hold the presses
L.J. Davis writes in the latest issue of the New Republic
that the history of the Rose Law Firm was from 1987 to 1992 “was
publically dominated by three partners: the amiable Webster
Hubble, who was until a few days ago associate attorney general;
the quiet Vincent Foster, who was deputy White House counsel
until his suicide las summer; and Hillary Rodham Clinton, who as
of press time was still first lady.”
Rough business
Mr. Davis, a contributing editor to Harper’s magazine who
has a chilling portrayal of dirty dealings in Arkansas in the New
Republic, had a frightening encounter in Little Rock on
Valentine’s Day.
As he told the Washington Times three weeks ago, Mr. Davis,
53, had been churning up the waters in Arkansas pursuing leads
pertaining to connections between the Clintons and questionable
bond transactions by the powerful Stephens Inc., owned by heavy
Clinton financial backer Jackson Stephens.
That proved unhealthy. Mr. Davis spent more than four hours
on the floor of his hotel room after apparently being knocked
unconscious by someone rifling his notebooks.
…
“I was in a semi-paralyzed state, but I remember looking at
my watch and it was 10:30 pm,” Mr. Davis said. He later recalled
that pages had been partially torn in his notebook and a critical
document was missing, enhancing his sense that he was not the
victim of a common mugging.
25 March 1994
Madison Prober Urged To Back Off
A senior Resolution Trust Corporation investigator says she
sought whistleblower protection after being pressured by her
Washington superiors to change her conclusion that the Whitewater-
Madison case was a “highly prosecutable case of check kiting”
involving President and Mrs. Clinton.
Post sex story about Clinton gets the spike
A reporter for the Washington Post has been suspended for
two weeks for insubordination after a heated confrontation with
editors over the newspapers’s handling of a story about sexual
harassment accusations against President Clinton.
Philip Morris fires off suit over ABC claim of added nicotine
Tobacco industry giant Philip Morris yesterday filed a $10
billion libel suit against ABC-TV and two of its journalists for
broadcasts charging that cigarettes are spiked with nicotine to
hook smokers.
Clinton TV pal Thomason sued for libel in ‘Travelgate’
TV producer and presidential pal Harry Thomason is facing an
$80.3 million libel suit for supposedly spreading false charges
of wrongdoing against a former White House press charter operator
snared in the “Travelgate” scandal.
Probe sought of leak of Foster death photos
Rep. William F. Clinger, Pennsylvania Republican, asked
Attorney General Janet Reno to probe the leak of photographs of
**
Continued in the next message…
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1403)
To: All 28 Mar 94 15:26:10
Subject: News you may have miss 02
Continued from the previous message…
**
Vincent W. Foster Jr.’s body, questioning whether the White House
used the leak to mute press reports.
Postal Service halts audits of rivals’ customers
Postal inspectors will no longer audit businesses to check
up on their use of rival Federal Express, United Parcel Service
and other express mailers, Postmaster General Marvin Runyon
announced yesterday.
Death in Little Rock
Driving home from a Mexican restaurant in Little Rock las
September 26, Luther “Jerry” Parks, whose company provided
security for Bill Clinton’s presidential campaign and transition
headquarters, was ambushed and killed by at least three bullets
fired at close range from a semi-automatic pistol.
Now the dead man’s son, Gary Parks, a former Navy submarine
navigator, charges his father, who ran American Contract
Services, Inc., was killed “to save Bill Clinton’s political
career.”
Interviewed in last Sunday’s London Telegraph, the younger
Parks said “my dad was working on Clinton’s infidelities for
about six years, starting in the campaign around 1983,” and had
compiled two name-and-photo-filled files on Mr. Clinton that he
kept hidden in his bedroom.
Shortly before he was killed, Mr. Parks’ Little Rock home
was broken into. Not only were the phone lines severed, but Jane
Parks, Mr. Parks; widow, says the pair of Clinton files turned up
missing and “must have been stolen.”
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control: Hope over experience.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1488)
To: All 28 Mar 94 22:26:10
Subject: DOJ CRAWFISHES!
*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: GUNTALK
*********** Conf: 0001 – MAIN
———————————————————————–
********** Original From: KEN DAWE
* STOLEN * To: ALL
* STUFF * Date/Number: 03/23/94 – 0008147
********** On: GUNTALK – 0001 – MAIN
———————————————————————–
You may have seen this already; probably someone has already uploaded
it, for that matter.
For anyone who came in late, Sherriff Richard Mack of Graham County, AZ,
has brought suit against the Federal Gov’t opposing the Brady Bill.
Sherriff Mack is the “Cheif Law Enforcement Official” in Graham County,
and therefore, under the provisions of Brady, his 12-man Sherriff’s
Dept. is responsible for background checks in that county. He contends
that
a) The Federal Gov’t does not have the right or authority to
require him to perform such checks, and
b) he does not have the manpower to do that and do his other
duties in the county.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(From the Colorado Springs Gazette-Telegraph, 23 March, 1994)
Government allows choice on gun check
Justice Department answers challenge
AP, Phoenix, AZ
The Justice Department is defending the 3-week-old Brady Bill
from a county sherriff’s challenge by arguing law officers need not always
carry out background checks the new federal law requires for handgun buyers.
Graham County Sheriff Richard Mack may decide other duties are
more pressing than making the checks, the U.S. Justice Department said
in a legal brief filed Monday.
Mack, who opposes the law, said from Safford in southeastern
Arizona: “I could stand on a street corner and wait for a kid to come by
and talk to him about the dangers of drug abuse, and it would be more
useful.”
Carl Stern, a Justice Department spokesman in Washington,
charecterized the filing as a “hypothetical legal argument” rather than
a guide to enforcing officials. He said local officials are expected to
make reasonable efforts to carry out the background checks.
“To not do anything at all because you’re opposed to what
Congress has done would not be reasonable,” Stern said Tuesday.
Mack is challeneging the gun law as a private citizen with his
own lawyer and help from the National Rifle Association. He argues that
it will swamp his department with paperwork and open him to lawsuits by
gun victims in his rural county of 28,000 people.
The government brief, filed in U.S. District Court in Tucson,
says the chief law enforcement officer in the juridsdiction where the
gun is being sold must make a “reasonable” effort to conduct a
background check. But it notes that Mack could “at any given time”
decide his 12-member department is too busy to conduct the check.
“In other words, a ‘reasonable’ effort may be no effort at all,”
the government wrote.
The Justice Department brief was the government’s first response
to several lawsuits around the country, challenging the law, which
requires a five-day wait before a handgun is sold while local law
agencies check the buyer’s background.
Mack argued the law is unconstitutionally vague and infringes
upon the states’ rights by telling local law officers what to do. The
government contends the law applies mainly to gun dealers, not to local
authorities.
The law enacted Feb. 28 was named for former White House press
secretary James Brady, who was shot during a 1981 assassination attempt
on then-President Ronald Reagan.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keyed in by hand, by me; any miss-spellings are probably my fault.
Note that the Associated Press is perpetuating the “Mandatory Five-Day
Wait” myth: The law says a *maximum* of five days. If your state has an
instant background check, you can get your pistol *now*.
… What was that ripping sound? Oh, just the Constitution…
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
* MMGR v3.00 * The NRA/ILA BBS (703)719-6406
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1496)
To: All 29 Mar 94 02:00:10
Subject: Data on the Waco fire
*********** Original To: ALL
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 0025 – Politics-F
———————————————————————–
Who started the fire at Waco?
A prosecution witness under oath testified that he was a
tank driver and that he saw a Branch Davidian start the fire.
The government in press conferences and in publications says
the tanks were no where near the compound when the fire started.
Noting press conferences and publications are not under
oath, who do you think is lying and why?
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * The National Wish List to Santa for Health Care. HRC
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1497)
To: All 29 Mar 94 01:00:10
Subject: GUNS
*********** Original To: ROBERT GIBSON
* SILICON * was By: MATT GIWER
* DUPE * posted: On: MERCOPUS
*********** Conf: 1438 – WorldTalk-F
———————————————————————–
RG> With the idea that the gun is what is causing the violence,
RG> how about that —in Gainsville. He didn’t use a gun. Are
RG> we then going to ban all knives??? The problem is people
RG> are killing people and they will do that with any kind of
RG> weapon they can get their hands on. We should not be so
RG> concerned about a person being killed every 30 min by a
RG> gun, but more concerned that a person is being killed every
RG> 30 minutes. Lets get rid of the Murderers.
Getting rid of murderers is inhuman.
I would rather see the “availability of guns made me do it”
defense tried once. Certainly if it is a good enough excuse for
more gun laws then it is an excuse for crime. It can not be both
ways.
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Child abuse experts have no children.
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From: Matt Giwer Area: Controv – (1498)
To: Rich Owens 28 Mar 94 23:58:10
Subject: Moralists Strike Tobac 01
RO> Attitudes are different today than they were in the 20’s.
RO> There are studies, (reports, rumors, heresay, or whatever
RO> you prefer to call them), indicating the dangers of
RO> smoking and of 2nd hand smoke.
The hyper moralist attitude toward tobacco and distilled
spirits started around 1400 and has barely changed. If you truly
believe “scientists” are immune from biases you do not know any.
A report on this mornings
RO> David Brinkley indicated that nicotine was found in the
RO> systems of fetuses where the mother doesn’t smoke. This is
RO> the result of 2nd hand smoke. Also, the cigarette industry
RO> is under fire for alledgedly spiking cigarettes with more
RO> than normal nicotine to make them more addictive. It
RO> hasn’t been proven yet however.
The spiking has been denied and is now the subject of a $10
billion law suit.
The public tends to
RO> believe this stuff whether it’s true or not. I feel that a
RO> ban will be in the near future. Will it work? Who knows?
If they are banned I will be in the smuggling business.
There is no reason for anyone not to get into the business.
Besides, the police and politicians are already on the payroll
from the present drug business. The costs will not increase.
—
* RM 1.3 01261 * Were the police at Wal-Mart?
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