Fleisher 0896-2, Fleisher Bud

Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
>
> > I realize when the world’s leading expert, after examining the gas
> > chambers concludes ” The was no cyanide used in the gas chambers”, that
> > this presents a problem for the Jews and their minions.

Yes, and it’s called “conclusive evidence” look, this isn’t a matter of
sympathy or that stuff, this is a matter of proper perspective and
justice. If you are going to accuse someone of terrible crimes is is not
out of order to require proper evidence of the accuser! “believe” what
you want to chose, but others have the right to ask “where’s your
evidence” and if it seems inconclusive, then…

 

> Since the Nazis destroyed the gas chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau, to hide
> the evidence of their terrible crime, how could anyone examine them?

Since the guy who stole my million dollars changed his name and got rid
of the evidence I have no case. You believe I had a million dollars?
Well maybe so, but maybe not so. This just doesn’t hold up, and here you
are accusing people of some terrible things.

> >
> > But people tend to believe an expert over some who are attempting
> > to perpetuate hatred toward those of the White race…And Fred Leuchter
> > is the expert in this field….We believe his conclusions over yours
> > and the Jews.

Leucheter was not an “expert” but it does not make him incapable of doing
a decent job either. The point is that his report was confirmed by
people “on the other side” but because of the time span involved the
report (to my understanding) is inconclusive. It’s a report. If
Leuchter want to voice his own opinion that this is conclusive, that’s
his privlege, but…

> Why do you conclude that I hate the white race or any race for that matter?
> This is not subject on which I have a mere opinion. I have examined the
> documents and seen the evidence. The leaders of Nazi Germany did attempt to
> exterminate the Jews and were responsible for the murder of between 4 and 6
> million Jews. That is not opinion. That is historical fact. I am as sure of
> it as I am sure that Abraham Lincoln was President of the United States
> during the Civil War.

This is NOT historical fact, because there is not a single document, in
writing from Hitler or his cronies giving an order to exterminate all the
Jews of Europe, and this “supposed conspiracy” is just that, a theory
drawn by some historians on the basis of conclusions drawn from other
happenings and such. But there is no document, so…?

>
> >
> > Now we know that you will try to discredit anyone who proclaims the
> > truth, and we know that you and the Jews will try to discredit Fred
> > Leuchter.
>
> I do not have to discredit Fred Leuchter. He discredits himself by showing
> that he is either dishonest, knows nothing about the subject, or is an
> outright liar. No real historian denies the terrible reality of the
> holocaust.

A logical fallacy. By saying that “no real historian” disagrees with you
you are attempting to define your opposition out of existence. It
simply is not true. Many good historians disagree, and that is whey the
conflict is ensuing…

>
> > BTW, still looking for that commincation involving Rudolph Hess and
> > other German officiers speaking of exterminating Jews….Hope you’ll be
> > able to post it for us.
> >
> By the above, you show that you really know nothing about the subject. By
> confusing Rudolph Hoess with Rudolph Hess, you show that you do not know
> who Rudolph Hoess was. Rudolph Hoess was the commandant of Auschwitz
> Birkenau. Rudolph Hess was the aid to Hitler who parachuted down to
> Scotland on May 10, 1941.

Oh, come on now–!

If you do not know that, you obviously know
> little or nothing about the holocaust.

What is known is that obviously there is much about it that isn’t really
settled. There are a lot of unanswerd questions, and if you are going to
accuse a people of such horror, you’b\ve got to get the facts or drop it!

> I suggest that you read a good book on the history of Third Reich before
> you continue to make a fool of yourself.

Oh, come on–! Yah da da da da dah! My father can beat up your father…

> Fr. John +

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:35 PDT 1996
Article: 2314 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:52:28 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Nele Abels) wrote:
>
> >[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
> >>I personally don’t know what Leuchter’s qualifications are, but it is
> >>evident he did some test at Auschwitz. Keren says here “Leuchter
> >>himself states very clearly …” that there were cyanide traces found
> >>at Auschwitz, seeming to use Leuchter himself as a reliable source.
> >
> >Grah! I can’t believe it. This great paladine of revisionism hasn’t even
> >_read_ the Leuchter report!
>
> Were does it say I never read the report? Personally I have
> stated before that I think it is inconclusive. I posted that under
> “Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today” along with my critique of the
> Crackow Report, of which I said the same thing.
> You read words, then report on what you read right under the
> material that your reading on, where your interpretation is not
> supported by the text. That’s what happens when little boys get snide.
> They blurt out. Mindless like.

Actually, what’s the big deal? All the posting said was that the Krakow
people confirmed Leuchter’s report, but also indicated (as you said) that
the report was inconclusive because there was no way of knowing for sure
how long certain amounts of traces would be remaining after so long a
time. Once again, this incredible overreaction and accusatory remarks by
anyone who “dares” to question the one-sided opinion of those events in
WW2? It is this attitude that gives me cause to wonder about the
validity of many of the other stories. Like I’ve said since I got
involved in this, I think the truth is somewhere betweenst, because both
sides of the issue appear to have an ax to grind.

“There are three sides to every divorce: His, Hers, and the truth!”

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:36 PDT 1996
Article: 2315 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: ‘Holocaust Revisionism’ Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:59:02 -0700
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Puck wrote:
>
> >> : Not one shread of paper has every been found, speaking of the
> >> : extermination of Jews in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s….If they
> >> : could find even one, can you imagine the monument the Jews and Judeo’s
> >> : would build around it?
> >> : This is incredible being as Germany was a country of over 50
> >> : million people, with many officers in their army….Yet the Jews have
> >> : come up with nothing….How could any thinking person believe in such a
> >> : Jewish fable?
> >>
> >> : Brethren, the Word says: ” Not giving heed to Jewish
> >> : fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.”, Titus
> >> : 1:14…..Are these not true Words for us, even in this very
> >> : day?….Jewish fables do turn us from the Truth.
> >>
> >> : Hail Jesus’ Victory!
>
> I dont know what you mean by ‘shred of paper’, You obviously are’nt
> talking about the pictures that my Uncle took at Belsen. My Uncle was a
> L.Cpl. and of no importance as far as recorded history goes, he was an
> atheist to boot and so had no religious axe to grind, so he was able to
> keep the 9 frames he had taken, hidden from the authorities (Alies)
> who’s first response to what they found, was to hush it up
> The holocost happened, and whether they were jews ,chinks .wops
> .coons .spics .greasers .daigoes or wogs, no jumped up half baked little
> wanker who thinks the austrian decorator was a pussy cat, has the right
> to deny it.
>
> My appologies to any group who feel themselvs to be represented by the
> derogatory phrasiology I used, the fact is ,this wanker strikes me as a
> pious christian racest,and so I use the words it understands, although
> it may have trouble with the words of more than four letters.

A “Pious CHRISTIAN RACIST” This is getting interesting and pointed, I
think…
> —
> Puck


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:37 PDT 1996
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: biblical revisionism
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:48:58 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
>
> The Very Rev. John W. Morris writes:
>
> Tell me, “Rev.” who gave you the right to call yourself, “Rev.” Were you
> ordained by someone with the authority to ordain, or did you simply
> proclaim yourself a minister? Do you have a real parish in a real
> denomination, or are you simply the leader of a small group of racists?
>
> Fr. John +

John, I don’t support all of what the “rev” has to say, and he and I even
had what could be called a “run in” on the sidelines. But none of the 12
apostles (appointed by God Himesle) or the Lord Himself went to a
university. Right now there are a bunch of “scholars” out there (the
Jesus Seminar) that are doing a work or “REVISIONISM” unparalled in
Christian history and they’re tearing the Scriptures to pieces! So your
contention has no basis or bearing on the truth. A lot of what the “rev”
has to say either does or does not line up with truth in perspective of
Biblical revelation. Finally, if you a Roman Catholic Priest and adhere
to ALL the teachings of the Roman Church, then there’s a lot I would
personally have to question about your position on Biblical revelation,
authority, etc. But for now, I just wanted to say that “rev’s” academic
credentials have nothing to do with the issue.

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:38 PDT 1996
Article: 2412 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Royce would not write that
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:02:19 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
>
> Royce Buehler wrote in article
> <[email protected]>…
> > Jews control the courts. Jews instantly brainwash everyone who steps
> > into a jury box with their little secret brainwashing rays. Jews
> > control all the seminaries and bible colleges in the country, which
> > is why any Christian who disagrees with Mr. Goddard is demoted to
> > a “Judeo-Christian”. Jews control all the people in the pews of
> > Christian churches. Jews control all the media. Jews control the
> > Internet.
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
> If you really believe the above, you are seriously in need of professional
> help. I assure you that Jews do not control the people in the pews of my
> Church, most of whom are Syrian Americans.
>
> Fr. John +

Although I can be positive, I think you’ve got the wrong guy here. From
what I know of Royce Buehler he would not have written what you say he
did. Check it out again.

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:39 PDT 1996
Article: 2430 of alt.bible.prophecy
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Subject: The faith of an evolutionist
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Aaron Bergman wrote:
> =

> Sam T=E2n ([email protected]) wrote:
> =

> : Look, lets sort this out.
> : Man does not “evolve”, for evolution implies an intelligent progression=
=2E
> =

> Nope. Evolution does not contain any progress paradigm. There is
> no intelligent progression implied.
> =

> : I would argue that man mutates.
> =

> Mutations are a cause for evolution.
> =

> : The DNA structure is copied billions of times, is it not plausable that=
lots of “errors” will
> : creep into the structure as it is copied?
> =

> Plausible nothing. It is a _fact_ that errors occur.
> =

> : Some of these errors actually improve upon the result, ie. more upright=
posture, some of them
> : completely fuck up the result, ie. (umm, insert tragic mutation here).
> =

> Cystic Fibrosis.
> =

> Aaron
> —
> Aaron Bergman — [email protected]
>
> The quote left intentionally blank.

To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =

ever required of a Bible-believing Christian. To believe that all things =

happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order =

requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker. This =

argument is a matter of “belief.” If you believe when you walk into a =

room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =

yet believe it just “evolved” there rather than somebody constructing =

it… Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =

facts. Still, one “believes” what one wants to, but science has nothing =

to do with it. Evolution is a relgion, a “belief” system, and one that I =

reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience. =

— =

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:40 PDT 1996
Article: 2431 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Not true and there’s a book to prove it!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:15:12 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> =

> Rev wrote in article
> <[email protected]>…
> > You mean the way the Stalin and the Jews killed 25 million
> > Christians in Russia?…Is that how you propose to keep your story
> > going?
> =

> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
> =

> The Communists did murder millions of Orthodox Christians. However, they
> also murdered many Jews. Stalin was not a Jew and was very anti-Semitic. =
To
> blame the Bolshevik Revolution on the Jews is to ignore the facts of
> history, but you are very good at that.
> > >> : >
> > >> : >
> > >> : Not one shread of paper has every been found, speaking of the
> > >> : extermination of Jews in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s….If
> > they
> > >>
> That is simply not true. There is a multitude of documentation of the
> holocaust.
> =

> Please do not blaspheme the name of Christ by associating it with your
> insane lies.
> =

> Fr. John +

Wrong again. Read the information below and send away for the book they =

have been trying to ban in America. It documents lots of evidence to =

show the persecution of Christians and other Russians under Marx, Lenin =

and Trotsky — Jews. This does NOT mean all Jews are like them — just =

like all Christians are NOT like… whatever! But to attempt to restrict =

the facts and deny the evidence — again, this is both suspicious and =

unacceptable…

>From the site: http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
Adelaide Institute – The final intellectual adventure
THE FINAL INTELLECTUAL ADVENTURE OF THE 20TH CENTURY
We are a group of individuals who are looking at the Jewish-Nazi =

Holocaust, in particular we are investigating the allegation that Germans =

systematically killed six million Jews, four million alone at the =

Auschwitz concentration camp. In our investigations we refuse to be =

intimidated by anyone because we believe that the first step in any =

murder investigation is to forensically test the alleged murder weapon. =

In the Auschwitz murder case, certain individuals wish to prevent us from =

focusing upon such an investigation.
The latest version of how the Germans gassed millions of Jews at =

Auschwitz is propagated by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University =

in the U.S.A. who claims that mortuaries were converted into homicidal =

gas chambers. Proof of this is apparently found in so-called “conversion =

plans”. We have requested of Professor Lipstadt and of the Holocaust =

Museum, Washington, to provide us with copies of such conversion plans. =

We are still waiting for them to provide us with these plans.
In the meantime we have noted the original four million Auschwitz death =

figure has been reduced by Jean Claude Pressac to a maximum of 800,000. =

This in itself is good news because it means that around 3.2 million =

people never died at Auschwitz – a cause for celebration.
We are worried about the fact that to date it has been impossible to =

reconstruct a homicidal gas chamber. Even the Holocaust Museum in =

Washington informed us that it could not bring one across from Europe =

because there are none available. This is like a space museum without a =

rocket or the Vatican without a Crucifix. We are justifiably sceptical =

about the homicidal gas chamber claims.
We reject outright that a questioning of the alleged homicidal gas =

chamber story constitutes “hate talk”, is “anti-Semitic”, “racist” or =

even “neo-Nazi” activity.

The director of the Adelaide Institute, Dr Fredrick Töben, puts it =

thus:
“If I offend anybody because I show poor taste in my sometime blunt and =

honest questioning, then I apologise. However, if I offend because I am =

politically incorrect by asking uncomfortable questions, then I claim it =

as my right, under the free speech principle, to say these things.”
We at the Adelaide Institute also focus on the Jewish-Bolshevik
Holocaust, a matter which Australian author Helen Demidenko-Darville has =

raised in her book The Hand That Signed The Paper. The controversy =

generated by this novel still continues.
Adelaide Institute associate, Mr David Brockschmidt, sums up the essence =

of Demidenko-Darville’s ‘crime’ in writing this book:

“The merit of Helen Demidenko-Darville’s novel – and hidden agenda of the =

anti-Demidenko affair – is that she has revealed a basic historical fact, =

viz, that Lenin’s henchman, Trotzky (Bronstein) and Stalin’s henchman, =

Kaganovich, were Jewish mass murderers. This historical fact clearly =

shows that Jews are not always victims in history, but also murderers. =

Australia’s mass media has failed to publicise this important fact. =

Why?”

David Brockschmidt displays his parents’ medal received from the West =

German government for saving Jews during World War II. The Brockschmidt =

family was also honoured by the Israeli Government and a tree in their =

memory has been planted in the Avenue of the Righteous Gentiles, =

Jerusalem, Israel.
David’s father was also instrumental in providing Oskar Schindler with =

the trucks which transported the Schindler Jews from Poland to =

Czechoslovakia. Steven Spielberg, who knew the vital role Brockschmidt =

played in this operation failed to give credit to David’s father. Why?
These two historical issues – the Jewish-Bolshevik Holocaust and the =

Nazi-Jewish Holocaust – are worthy subjects for an intellectual enquiry. =

We are aware of the fact that to venture forth in to such an enquiry can =

be dangerous.
Professor Robert Faurisson (France), Mr David Irving (England), Dr =

Wilhelm Stäglich, Professor Udo Walendy, Messrs Günter Deckert, =

Germar Rudolf, Mr Thies Christopherson, Pastor Manfred Junger (Germany), =

Mr Ditlieb Felderer (Sweden), Mr Hans Schmidt (U.S.A.), and Mr Ernst =

Zündel (Canada) are people who have suffered physically, mentally and =

materially as a result of their search for truth in history. The enemies =

of freedom of speech will use physical and legal violence – persecution =

through prosecution – to stifle debate on these contentious historical =

issues. There is a tremendous pressure placed on people who dare touch =

these taboo subjects. All too often the first thing that snaps is the =

family unit, followed by professional and social ostracism.
So, be warned – this final intellectual journey is not for the =

faint-hearted. If you dare to seek the truth, in particular about the =

alleged homicidal gassings, then you will be smeared, libelled and =

defamed by those who are intellectual midgets but materialistic giants.
If you are mentally strong enough to seek the truth of the matter, then =

force an open debate. Don’t get side tracked by details and always =

refocus on the basics. Too many individuals drown in a sea of =

particulars.
People who claim that during World War II, the Germans gassed millions of =

Jews are levelling three allegations at the Germans:
1. The Germans planned the construction of huge chemical slaughter =

houses;
2. The Germans constructed these huge chemical slaughterhouses =

during the middle of World War II; and
3. The German used these huge slaughterhouses to exterminate =

millions of Jews.

Any normal person familiar with bureaucratic red tape will now ask:
What proof is there to back up these claims? Firstly, where are the plans =

of this enterprise? Secondly, where is the budget needed to finance the =

massive enterprise? Finally, it is inconceivable that such a massive =

undertaking would get past first base without an executive order. To =

date, we have been led to believe that “a wink and a nudge” began the =

alleged extermination project.
We at Adelaide Institute believe that those who level the homicidal =

gassing allegations at the Germans owe it to the world to come up with =

irrefutable evidence that this happened.
Instead, these defamers and libellers of the Germans use legal means to =

stifle debate on the topic. They claim that anyone who asks questions is =

engaging in “hate-talk”, is “anti-Semeitic” is a “racist”, even a =

“neo-Nazi”.
If that doesn’t work,then physical violence is used to silence those who =

want to know the truth.
So, come on board if you have the courage to look for truth. We naturally =

maintain that should – after fifty years- proof of the homicidal gassings =

be forthcoming, we shall gladly publicise this as well. To date, there =

has been no proof offered to the world. Robert Faurisson sums it up well: =

“No holes, no Holocaust!”
We are not “holocaust deniers”. We proudly proclaim that to date there is =

no evidence that millions of people were killed in homicidal gas =

chambers. That is good news all round. Why would anyone find this =

offensive? We are celebrating the living who were thought dead. How can =

this be an offence – unless it offends those who have their snout in the =

trough which Jewish academic, Dr Frank Knopfelmacher called, “the =

Holocaust racket”.
If there is to be a mission statement from Adelaide Institute, then it is =

best summed up in a letter which appeared in The Australian on 22 =

February, 1996. Written by John Buchner of Camden of NSW, nine days =

before the 2nd March federal election:
OPEN SEASON ON GERMANS
Phillip Adams referred in a recent column of Review, 13 – 14 January =

1996, to a number of foreign situations, which are dealt with in a =

jocular fashion, but he refers to the German people in a contemporary =

sense as “Nazi swine”. Many people from a German background have settled =

in Australia and made a significant contribution to it, including serving =

in its armed forces against the Nazi regime. Their memory is vilified by =

Mr Adams’ reference.
During my school years here, I endured continual vilification because of =

my German origins and countless “Hitler Salutes”.
However, my complaint to you is not motivated by a chip on the shoulder =

because of these events. Like most Australians, I can take it and abhor =

the treatment other national groups have received.
My concern is that there seems to be a perpetual open season on all =

Germans, as though all Germans must forever bear the guilt and shame of =

the Nazi regime.
I can bear references to “Nazi Swine”, albeit without amusement. But what =

of my children? Are my children to be forever classed “Nazi Swine” in =

this country?
John Buchner
Camden, NSW

Interestingly, a climate of political correctness pervaded the run-up =

period to the 2nd of March federal elections, with Liberal and National =

candidates coming in for some sharp rebukes from their Labor colleagues =

over publicly-made alleged racist statements. For example, there was Bob =

Katter who lashed out at “enviro-Nazis”, “femi-Nazis” and “slant-eyed =

ideologues”. Only the latter statement created an uproar. The “Nazi” word =

has been used by a number of politicians from all parties because it =

still has a sting to it. After all, everything done by the Germans prior =

to and after World War II is eclipsed by what is alleged to have happened =

at Auschwitz concentration camp. The argument is always “from Mozart, =

Beethoven and Wagner to the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz”. That’s =

the card pulled out by anyone who is faced with competition from a =

German-born Australian or Australian of German descent.
It is from this basis that we take it as our right to challenge the taboo =

topic’s veracity – did the Germans operate homicidal gas chambers at =

Auschwitz? It is too cheap for us to decry our work as that of =

“hate-mongers”, “anti-Semites”,”racists” or “neo-Nazis”. Let us repeat: =

we are not deniers of the Jewish-Nazi Holocaust. We affirm that to date =

there is no proof that millions of people were gassed by Germans in =

homicidal gas chambers. Dare you join us in this final intellectual =

adventure of the 20th Century?

Adelaide Institute Newsletters
No. 37 – April 1996 Available soon
No. 36 – March 1996 Available soon
No. 35 – February 1996 Available soon
No. 34 – January 1996 Available soon
No. 33 – December 1995 Available soon

What is available
=95 Fredrick Töben : Political Correctness In Our Schools – Paper =

presented at the National Conference Of The Australian College of =

Education: “Tomorrow’s Teachers”, Adelaide, 2-6 October 1995.
ISBN 0646 26799X.
=95 Fredrick Töben (Compiler): Political Correctness Is No Joke – =

The Leuchter Case, 1995. ISBN 0 646 24194 X.
=95 David Brockschmidt: Schindler’s List, Bridging the Gap between =

Political Correctness and Historical Correctness, 1995, Video.
=95 Fredrick Töben: Adelaide War Crimes Trials, 1995, Video.
=95 David Irving – Fighting Back – Confronting Deborah Lipstadt, 11 =

November 1994. Video.

Interesting Revisionist Sites
Zündelsite (Canada – English/French/German)
Greg Raven – Institute for Historical Review
(USA – English)

Bradley Smith – Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH)
(USA – English/French)
Ahmed Rami – Radio Islam
(Sweden – English, French, German, Norwegian, Swedish)
Interesting Exterminationist Sites
Ken McVay – The Nizkor Project (Canada – English)
Simon Wiesenthal Centre (USA – Multilingual)
UPDATES
The Faurisson Forum
The Irving Interlude
The Zündel Site
A Book Boycott
Historical Flashback – Zyklon B
A discussion on Radio National
A question addressed to some philosophers

Please feel free to contact us at;
Adelaide Institute
PO Box 3300
Norwood
SA 5067

Ph. 61 8 331 0808
Fax. 61 8 332 2908

Or email Fredrick Töben for more information or comments.

— =

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:41 PDT 1996
Article: 2472 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: webster definitifon of Semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:36:50 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> =

> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <[email protected]> bud writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man — an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down. Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >– not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you. Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning. it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800’s by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings. Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> > “Anti-Semite” Anyone hostile to Jews, might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> =

> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the “Big Ten” has ten
> universities and the “Midwest” is in the western part of the USA.
> =

> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> =

> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> =

> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here’s the Webster definition of Semite. Anyone want to dispute with =

them send them a letter!

Sem-ite (sem’iet; esp. Brit. see’miet) n. =

1. a member of a people speaking a Semitic =

language.
2. a member of any of the peoples descended =

from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.
[1870-75; < NL semita < LL Sem (< Gk S=E9m < Heb =

Shem SHEM) + -ita – ITE 1]
— =

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 2473 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of Semitic
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:38:25 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
>
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <[email protected]> bud writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man — an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down. Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >– not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you. Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning. it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800’s by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings. Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> > “Anti-Semite” Anyone hostile to Jews, might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
>
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the “Big Ten” has ten
> universities and the “Midwest” is in the western part of the USA.
>
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
>
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
>
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Webster’s definition. Want to dispute this, send them a letter!
Se-mit-ic (suh mit’ik) n.
1. a family of languages, a branch of the
Afroasiatic family, comprising a number
of ancient and modern languages of SW
Asia and Africa, as Akkadian, Aramaic,
Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic.
adj.
2. of or pertaining to the Semitic languages
or their speakers.
[< NL semiticus = semit (a) SEMITE + -icus – IC]

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:43 PDT 1996
Article: 2480 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: ‘Holocaust Revisionism’ Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:57:14 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
>
> bud wrote in article
> <[email protected]>…
>
> > Yes, and it’s called “conclusive evidence” look, this isn’t a matter of
> > sympathy or that stuff, this is a matter of proper perspective and
> > justice. If you are going to accuse someone of terrible crimes is is not
>
> > out of order to require proper evidence of the accuser! “believe” what
> > you want to chose, but others have the right to ask “where’s your
> > evidence” and if it seems inconclusive, then…
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
> There are volumes of evidence. The allies did not just take the leaders of
> Nazi Germany out and shoot them. They gave them a fair trial at Nuremberg
> and supported their accusations with documents and testimony. The
> defendants had attorneys to represent them and the right to reject any
> document used during the trial. Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz
> Birkenau, gave a detailed account of how he built gas chambers and was
> personally responsible for the murder of millions of Jews at one camp
> alone.
> >
> >
> > This is NOT historical fact, because there is not a single document, in
> > writing from Hitler or his cronies giving an order to exterminate all the
>
> > Jews of Europe, and this “supposed conspiracy” is just that, a theory
> > drawn by some historians on the basis of conclusions drawn from other
> > happenings and such. But there is no document, so…?
>
> In a sense you are correct. There does not exist a document with Hitler’s
> signature authorizing the extermination of the Jews. However, that is
> really a straw man because there is abundant proof that the Holocaust took
> place and enough circumstantial evidence to prove in a court of law that
> Hitler knew about it. There are eyewitness accounts of his discussions
> during dinner, “Hitler’s Table Talk,” that indicate that he knew about and
> approved of the death camps. Hitler made a speech at the beginning of the
> war during which he threatened to rid Europe of the Jews.
> >
> Many good historians disagree, and that is whey the
> > conflict is ensuing…
> >
> The so called “revisionist” historians, are not real historians. I have yet
> to see a work by a recognized historian of the Third Reich which disproves
> the traditional accounts of the Holocaust. There are works by pseudo
> historians whose work is highly suspect because of their thinly veiled
> anti-Semitism, that attempt to discredit the works of real historians.
> However, if one really looks at the issue, these pseudo historians have not
> proven their argument. I studied the Third Reich as a student at Johann von
> Goethe University in Frankfurt am Main as a Fulbright scholar. I still
> remember when the professor, himself a nephew of a prominent Second World
> War German General, cried as he described the crimes against the Jews by
> the Nazis. You may not consider me an expert or an historian, but Purdue
> and Indiana Universities considered me enough of an expert to pay me to
> teach German history at their campus in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I can tell you
> without the slightest hesitation that the Holocaust is not a myth.
>
> > > I suggest that you read a good book on the history of Third Reich
> before
> > > you continue to make a fool of yourself.
> >
> > Oh, come on–! Yah da da da da dah! My father can beat up your father…
> >
> Although you belittle it, it is a legitimate question. Have you read any of
> the classic studies of Hitler, the Extermination of the Jews or the Third
> Reich? If not, how can you presume to speak to this issue?

Read lots from both sides. Nuremburg was a travesty, and there were
several justices who said it at the time. As for “war Crimes” I haven’t
found many who deny that numerous crimes occurred. What is being
questioned is the “gas chamber” stories, the seemingly exaggerated 6
million figure, etc. The stories have grown more and more bizarre over
the years. Good historians (despite you attempting to denegrate their
documentation and efforts) have successfully brought some of the
discrepancies into focus, raising questions. I reject this idea that a
person is anti-semitic just because he questions some of the claims.
It’s an attempt to “silence” opposition and is very suspect! What kind
of “historical fact” needs legal sanctions against its opponents? Could
you imagine if we Christians were to demand people be incarcerated
because they do not believe the historicity of the Bible and the
resurrection of Christ?! Millions of Christians have died for these
beliefs, do we then try to have those who oppose our view to be thrown
into jail or label them as “hate groups” or “anti” whatever?! There is a
loss of perspective here. Finally, even IF somebody were a so-called
“anti-semite” it DOES NOT mean they are lying! I think Satan himself
would tell you the truth if it suited him. And why do you address this
part of the issue and not comment on the myriad “anti-Christian”
statements of the Talmud and other Jewish religious writings and beliefs?
Are not our feelings important? Maybe we should have them put into jail
for denying the Lordship of Jesus and His bodily resurrection? There
needs to be a balance here and a realistic perspective on the issue, not
the current trends.
>
> Fr. John +


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:44 PDT 1996
Article: 2492 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: finally…!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700
Organization: home
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Michael Swihart wrote:
>
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <[email protected]> bud writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man — an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down. Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >– not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you. Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning. it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800’s by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings. Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> > “Anti-Semite” Anyone hostile to Jews, might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
>
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the “Big Ten” has ten
> universities and the “Midwest” is in the western part of the USA.
>
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
>
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.

If you don’t know who “invented” this “misnomer” how do you know
he/she/it/they were/are “Jew-hater’s?” Get real and drop the persecution
complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your
selction religion. Christians have to deal with it all the time.

> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:45 PDT 1996
Article: 2497 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of anti-semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:41:22 -0700
Organization: home
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Michael Swihart wrote:
>
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > [email protected](Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <[email protected]> bud writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man — an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down. Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >– not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you. Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning. it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800’s by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings. Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> > “Anti-Semite” Anyone hostile to Jews, might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
>
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the “Big Ten” has ten
> universities and the “Midwest” is in the western part of the USA.
>
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
>
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
>
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here’s Webster’s definition of the term. Problems with it, send them a
letter!

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:46 PDT 1996
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White Tiger wrote:
>
> Eliyehowah wrote:
> >
>
>
> Interesting theory.
> —
> “Peoples minds are not changed through arguments, but by observation.”

Not the Evolutionists! They “believe” that everything came about from
random chances and zillions of series of “accidental happenings” without
a stitch of observable evidence. That’s why I marvel at the “faith” of
an Evolutionist. And they “argue” for it all the time. Anything to get
rid of God, I imagine.
>
> White Tiger (K. Cornelius)
> [email protected]


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:47 PDT 1996
Article: 2528 of alt.bible.prophecy
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Ed LaBonte wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says…
>
> >
> >To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =
> >ever required of a Bible-believing Christian. To believe that all things =
> >happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order
> >requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker.
>
> I would tend to agree. The problem is that evolution doesn’t say that
> animals evolve ‘accidently’. The theory is called natural *selection*.
> Selection is the opposite of accident.
>
> This =
> >argument is a matter of “belief.” If you believe when you walk into a =
> >room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =
> >yet believe it just “evolved” there rather than somebody constructing =
> >it… Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =
> >facts. Still, one “believes” what one wants to, but science has nothing =
> >to do with it. Evolution is a relgion, a “belief” system, and one that I =
> >reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience. =
>
> Well, if you could describe a plausible set of principles that would make
> something evolve into a chair then I would be willing to listen. We don’t

You would listen, but eventually you would still have to either reject or
“believe” in that proposal. “Faith” would have to be exercised because
there is no observable evidence and you sure aren’t going to sit around
waiting to see it occur! But in my lifetime I have “seen” and observed”
the making and placing of furniture and such by an intelligent being and
“made and placed there” accordingly, not by mere chance! The
observations of life would make my “belief” more rational in view of the
observable evidence. That is why it takes a much greater faith to
believe in something coming “accidently” from random chance.
> have any such thing, but we do have a very plausible theory which
> explains how animals can change and evolve over time. ‘Faith’ in evolution

The evolutionary theory about animals evolving has been almost totally
destroyed by one of your own evolutionary advocates in a book by a
biologist who still “believes” in evolution. It’s called “Evolution, a
theory In Crisis.” by Micheal Denton, published by Adler and Adler ISBN
# 0-917561-05-8
Try it out, I think you’ll find it interesting.

> is more similar to faith in the fact that the earth goes around the sun than it is to religious faith.
Religious faith doesn’t require plausible
explanations.

Not true. While there might be some (0r many) who have what is commonly
called “blind faith” there is an entire body of evidences (often called
the area of apologetics) that presents very convincing rational evidences
for the Christian faith and the existence of God. This is especially
true of the Bible. The Bible is a historical document, one that can be
examined in the light of known facts and history and using the same type
of approaches as is commonly used to verify other historical documents.
The primary problem seem to often be that many people just cannot (or
will not) approach the Scripture without bringing along a lot of
“baggage” with them. This, as you can imagine, makes a reasonable
approach to this study difficult, if not impossible. Sure, if you take
theories or unproven matters you can and will find conflicts… but this
does not preclude the ability to embark on a rational study of the Bible
and attempt to determine if its claims to divine inspiration are
warranted.

>
> >”The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)
>
> An unoriginal thought by an unoriginal thinker.
>
> —
> Ed LaBonte [email protected]ultranet.com
> http://www.ultranet.com/~elabonte/


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:48 PDT 1996
Article: 2531 of alt.bible.prophecy
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Richard Swordsman wrote:
>
> God will hold you personally responsible for taking false quotes out of
> context.
> Repent.
> Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put
> their trust in him.
> Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be
> found a liar.
>
> I dind’t say it, but it is gospel
>
> JHunter234 ([email protected]) ‘s tidbit:
> : Is there anything that could conceivably happen in the future, be it
> : science advances, or unexpected happenings that could bring about the
> : demise of Christianity or at least bible-inerrant fundamentalism? Or are
> : most Christians that wacked-out delusional that not even God himself could
> : change their minds— a sincere question—-

A sincere person you are not. “Wacked-out delusional” Christians
wouldn.t be capable of what you’re asking for. And, since you are
obviously prejudiced towards Christianity, your mind is made up and no
answer would suffice. Why waste your time here?
>
> : Jeff “it is to laugh” Hunter
> —
> ****************************************************************
> *** www.remnants.com – www.dreamsandvisions.com ****
> *** and www.sundaylaw.com are three NEW bible based web sites ***


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:50 PDT 1996
Article: 2538 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud
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Subject: apologetics pt 1
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What is Faith? Is Christianity Worthy or our faith?
What is faith? Many people today would claim it is believing something
you know isn’t true! Many non-christians define faith this way. This is
not surprising, still for a Christian this is a tragic view. Is “blind
faith” enough? Or, better yet, is that what God expects of the
Christian? Today, in our country and many others, the average person with
a higher education would also probably define faith in the manner above.
This idea of “self deception” and skepticism is there with nearly
everyone. NOW THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT — CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT NECESSARILY
KISSED THEIR BRAINS GOODBYE; AND, THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST CAN BE
SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED IN AN INTELLIGENT, FACTUAL MANNER. We live in an
increasingly so-called sophisticated world. Like it or not, it is simply
no longer adequate that someone merely “believe” something. It is
essential to know “why” you believe. And here are some more very
important truths: (1) Believing in something, no matter how strong
the belief, does not make it true. (2) Not believing does not make
it untrue. (3) A thing is true or untrue on its own merit, upon what
the evidence shows, regardless of popular opinion or personal belief. (4)
This is also true of Christianity. A clearly reasoned faith; a clearly
reasoned explanation of the Gospel of Christ is very important AND
EXHORTED BY SCRIPTURE ITSELF. This is not saying that there is a rational
substitute for true faith. Nor is it a method by which the objective
truth of God’s Word (the Bible) can be made clear so that a man will heed
it as the vehicle of the Spirit of God. It is, however, a method by
which this objective truth can be conveyed with powerful, factual proofs.
As Christians, we know that God alone then convicts the world through
His message.Do Christians need this, however? Definitely yes!
Christians are faced everywhere with a challenge regarding their faith.
Modern communications have made this world a small place: Therefore,
Christians are faced everywhere with the challenges of other religious
systems such as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and literally hundreds of
other “systems” of religions. And, we must remember that these other
religions too claim their religions are valid, truthful, etc. Certainly,
if Christianity is the “true faith” then it is not unreasonable to expect
some other proofs other than religious zeal or “experiences.the
analytical philosopher, Antony Flew, states how meaningless are religious
assertions to the non-christian when they cannot be tested objectively.
Flew uses the following story as told by John Wisdom:Once upon a time two
explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were
growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorers says, ‘some gardener
must tend to this plot.’ The other explorer disagrees, saying, ‘There is
no gardener.’ So they pitch their tents and begin to watch…no gardener
is ever seen.
But maybe he is an invisible gardener.’ So, they set up barbed wire Fence
and they electrify it. They even patrol with bloodhounds to help detect
any scent they could miss. But no shrieks ever suggest that some
intruder has received an electric shock, no movements of the wire ever
betray an invisible climber and the bloodhounds never bark out. Yet,
still the believer is not convinced. ‘But still,’ he insists, ‘there is a
gardener; invisible and insensible to electric shocks and whom the dogs
cannot smell; a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden
which he loves.’ Finally, the skeptic despairs. ‘But what remains of your
original assertion?’ the skeptic says. ‘Just how does what you call an
invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an
imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?

The point is well demonstrated! No matter what your religious belief is,
this parable is a damning judgement on ALL RELIGIOUS TRUTH-CLAIMS EXCEPT
that of Christianity.

At first glance, this statement seems very unfair. After all, why should
Christianity be considered separate from this “damning judgement”
mentioned above? The answer is, because Christians do not merely have
some allegation that the garden (the world) is tended by a loving
gardener (God); but have an
actual, empirical evidential basis of the entrance of that gardener (God)
into the human scene in the person of Jesus Christ and this entrance is
verifiable by way of his resurrection.

At this point it is important to stop and note that the Bible–in spite
of its veracity, clearly says that salvation is the sovereign work of
God, that in spite of all the evidence you cannot “argue” someone into
God’s kingdom. It is very important for every Christian to remember this
when presenting his “defense” of the Gospel to another.

There is an intellectual factor in the Gospel, but there also is a moral
consideration.

(1 Corinthians 2:14. NIV) “The man without the Spirit does not accept the
things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him,
and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

>From the above verse we know that apart from the work of the Holy Spirit,
no one will believe. However–as one of the instruments of the Holy
Spirit–a reasonable, intelligent explanation of the
gospel will be used by the Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to the
listener.

YOU SHOULD KNOW SOME ANSWERS
There are clear biblical commands to Christians to be intelligent in
their faith. (1 Peter 3:15. NIV). “But in your hearts set apart Christ as
Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to
give a reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and
respect.”

If we are unable to give reasons for our faith, and if you allow some
questions to defeat you in a conversation time after time, you are being
disobedient. By your own ignorance, you are confirming unbelievers
unbelief.

There are sound, practical reasons why this command was given to
Christians. It is necessary for the strengthening of our faith as
Christians. If you know Jesus lives only because (as the hymn says) “he
lives within my heart,” you are going to be in trouble the first time you
don’t feel like he is there! In addition, what do you do when someone
else–a person who is not a Christian–claims to have “his god” in “his
heart”?
You cannot expect to drive yourself indefinitely by sheer willpower to
believe something of which you are not intellectually convinced. In
fact, when someone tells us that the only reason they believe is because
their parents and religious backgrounds makes them believe, we must be
able to show them (and ourselves) that we believe what we believe because
it is objectively true, regardless of who told us!

THERE IS A VAST RATIONAL BODY OF TRUTH
Many non-christians have failed to consider the Gospel seriously because
no one has ever presented the facts to them correctly. They associate
faith with superstition based primarily on emotional considerations; so
they reject it.

(Matthew 22:37. NIV) “Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all
your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”)

Here is a clear biblical indication of a rational basis of the Gospel.
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself commands that the whole person is involved
in the conversion–the mind, the emotions and the will.

THE GOSPEL IS ALWAYS EQUATED WITH TRUTH
Read Romans 2:8. Non-Christians are defined by Paul as those who have
“rejected the truth.” Read Romans 1:20. Here Paul makes it clear that
people have enough knowledge from creation itself to know there is a God.
Read Romans 1:21. Here Paul goes on to show that the basic reason people
do not know God is not because He cannot be known or understood, but
because mankind has rebelled against their Creator.

THE REAL ISSUE IS MORALS
The moral issue always overshadows the intellectual issue in
Christianity.
It is not that people cannot believe… It is that they will not believe.

(John 7:17. NIV) “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out
whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”

Here, Jesus is making it clear that moral commitment leads to a solution
of the so-called intellectual problem. So-called intellectual problems
are almost always a smoke screen to cover up moral rebellion.

IF CHRISTIANITY IS RATIONAL AND TRUE, WHY IS IT MOST EDUCATED PEOPLE
REJECT IT?
First of all, it is important to understand that there are many
intelligent, educated people (scholars, etc.) who are Bible-believers.
However, the answer to the above question is simple: They don’t believe
for the same reason that most uneducated people don’t believe–they don’t
want to believe. It is not a matter of brain power, as already stated,
there are outstanding Christians in every field of the arts and sciences.
As with mostly everyone, again it is a matter of the will, not the
intellect.

TO HAVE DOUBTS OR QUESTIONS?
Even Christians sometimes question their faith, wonder if it’s true…
For some of them “doubt” might seem a scary word and this can lead to an
unhealthy suppression of seeking the truthful answer. This is often
especially true for those who were raised as Christians. From their
earliest days they may have accepted
the facts of Christianity solely on the basis of trust in their
parents, friends, etc. Unfortunately, as they grow up a reexamination of
their position takes place and they sometimes become disillusioned merely
because they fail to seek answers to their questions and doubts. This is
entirely wrong! Remember, Christianity is about the One who IS Truth (see
John 14:6). Careful scrutiny will not harm your faith–it will only
reinforce it!

SUPPOSE YOU DON’T HAVE AN ANSWER TO A QUESTION OR AN OBJECTION?
Don’t panic,-get the answer. Remember, it is highly unlikely that anyone
has thought up the question that will bring Christianity crashing down.
Brilliant minds have for centuries thought through the most profound
questions and have wonderfully answered them. We do not have the answers
to every question because the Lord hasn’t fully revealed His mind to us
on everything (see Deut.
29:29). However, we do have more than enough for a solid foundation for
our faith.

CONCLUSION
(1) Christianity is based on the evidence.
(2) Christianity is a reasonable faith, based on the kind of evidences
one can examine and test for veracity.

The Christian need have no fear of the honest seeker of truth, for the
evidences supporting the Christian claim are powerful and convincing.
The real question facing any one examining that evidence is whether or
not they are an “honest” seeker of truth, willing to let the evidence
speak for itself; or are they–like many–rejecting the evidence based on
a preset disposition against God and His revelation, the Bible… END

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:51 PDT 1996
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From: bud
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: was Jesus a Bigot?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:12:07 -0700
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Jay McCullough wrote:
>
> >I think we can solve all your problems
> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
> How about we just settle for bigot?
>
> Webster
>
> Bigot
> 1. one who is unreasonably and blindly attached
> to a particular creed, church church party or opinion.
>
> 2. one who is bitterly intolerant of the opinions of others

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 <“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour
widows’ houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers;
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple,
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is
obligated.’
17 “You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the
temple that sanctified the gold?
18 “And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.’
19 “You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar
that sanctifies the offering?
20 “Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and
by everything on it.
21 “And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by
Him who dwells within it.
22 “And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by
Him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you
should have done without neglecting the others.
24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery
and self-indulgence.
26 “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they
are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 “Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons
of those who murdered the prophets.
32 “Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence
of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this
generation.

sound familiar? Sound “bigotted? Not very tolerant, is it?

>
> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
> to people of a different race religion etc.

You pay attention, Jay.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves,
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 <“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour
widows’ houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers;
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple,
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is
obligated.’
17 “You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the
temple that sanctified the gold?
18 “And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.’
19 “You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar
that sanctifies the offering?
20 “Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and
by everything on it.
21 “And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by
Him who dwells within it.
22 “And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by
Him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you
should have done without neglecting the others.
24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery
and self-indulgence.
26 “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they
are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 “Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons
of those who murdered the prophets.
32 “Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence
of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this
generation.

Sound familiar again? Sounds to me like the Lord wasn’t very “tolerant”

> usage- Bud is a bigot.
>
> Bigot Bud carries water for the bigoted Rev.
>
> See how easy that was?
>
> In Christ
> Jay


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:52 PDT 1996
Article: 2575 of alt.bible.prophecy
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Subject: A theory in crisis
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THE PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION
“The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the
biological world is the notion of Special Creation.” (Niles Eldredge,
Ph.D., paleontologist and Evolutionist, American Museum of Natural
History).

“We must ask first whether the theory of evolution by natural selection
is scientific or pseudoscientific (metaphysical)… Taking the first part
of the theory, that evolution has occurred, it says that the history of
life is a single process of species-splitting and progression. This
process must be unique and unrepeatable, like the history of England.
This part of the theory is therefore a historical theory, about unique
events, and unique events are, by definition, NOT PART OF SCIENCE, for
they are unrepeatable and so not subject to test. (Evolutionist Dr.
Colin Patterson, “Evolution” [London; British Museum of Natural History,
1978, pp. 145-146) Emphasis added.

“So even the fossil evidence on which theories depend is open to
subjective interpretation.” (Robert Martin, paleontologist and
Evolutionist, “Man is Not An Onion”, New Scientist, Vol. 75, no. 1063 pp.
283-285)

“As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in
papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has
become ever more complex and cumbersome…I HAVE LITTLE HESITATION IN
SAYING THAT A SICKLY PALL NOW HANGS OVER THE BIG BANG THEORY. When a
pattern of facts become set against a theory, experience shows that the
theory rarely recovers.” (Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle, famous British
astronomer and cosmologist. “The Bib Ban Theory Under Attack” Science
Digest, Vol. 92 (May 1984), p. 84 (emphasis added)).

“The time asymmetry of the universe is expressed by the second law of
thermodynamics, that entropy increases with time as order is transformed
into disorder. The mystery is not that an ordered state should become
disordered but that the early universe was in a highly ordered state
(p.39,d.Page)
“There is no mechanism know as yet that would allow the universe to begin
in an arbitrary state and then evolve to its present highly-oriented
state” (p. 40 D. Page, Physicist at Pennsylvania State University,
Evolutionist. “Inflation Does not Explain Time Asymmetry,” Nature, Vol.
304 (July 7, 1983).

“I think however that we must go further than this and admit that the
only accepted explanation is CREATION. I know that this is an anathema
to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory
that we do not like IF THE EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTS IT.”
(Evolutionist and professor H.J. Lipson F.R.S “A Physicist looks at
Evolution,” Physics Bulletin vol. 31 (1980), p. 138 emphasis added.

“The wonder is… that there should be a universe at all, with the laws
and plan and apparent purpose.” (Evolutionist Wilder Penfield, O.M.
Litt.B., M.D., F.R.S. “The Mystery of the Mind, Princeton, New Jersey,
Princeton University Press, 1975, p. 73)

“Living organism, however, differ from inanimate matter by the degree of
complexity of their systems and by the POSSESSION OF A GENETIC PROGRAM…
The genetic instructions packaged in an embryo direct the formation of an
adult, whether it be a tree, a fish, or a human. THE PROCESS IS
GOAL-DIRECTED, BUT FROM THE INSTRUCTION IN THE GENETIC PROGRAM, NOT FROM
THE OUTSIDE. NOTHING LIKE IT EXISTS IN THE INANIMATE WORLD.” (Ernst
Mayr, Ph.D., Evolutionist, Ernst Mayr in Roger Lewin, “Biology Is Not
Postage Stamp Collecting,” Science, Vol. 216, # 4547(May 14, 1982), pp.
718-720, emphasis added.

‘The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of snails of melanoides
tuberculatus LIVING TODAY in the artesian springs in southern Nevada
indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years. (Alan C. Riggs, Science, Vol.
224, April 6, 1984, pp. 58-61. Emphasis added.

Dried seal carcasses less than 30 years old “dated” as old as 6,400
years, and a freshly killed seal “dated” at 1300 years old. (W. Dort,
Jr., “mummified seals of southern Victoria Land” Antarctic Journal of the
United States, Vol. 6 (1971), p. 210 + (also, “when the blood of a seal
freshly killed a McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by Carbon-14,
it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago”).

“It should be noted that dates (absolute dates) obtained by different
methods (radioactive dating methods) COMMONLY SHOW SOME DISCREPANCIES…
As the Committed on the Measurement of Geological Time said in 1950,
“These figures (i.e. dates) are AS RAILWAY TIMETABLES SAY, SUBJECT TO
CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE. (D.G.A. Whitten and J.R.V. Brooks, “The Penguin
Dictionary of Geology, Middlesex, England, Penguin Books, 1972, emphasis
added.

Volcanic eruption of 1800 on Hualalai Island, Hawaii, produced rocks
which falsely “dated” 160 million to 3 billion years. (John G.
Funkhauser and John J Naughton, “Radiogenic Helium and Argon in
Ultramatic Inclusions From Hawaii” Journal of Geophysical Research, vol.
73, # 14, July 16, 1968, pp. 4601-4607.

“…How life originated, I am afraid that SINCE PASTEUR, THIS QUESTION IS
NOT WITHIN THE SCIENTIFIC DOMAIN. (Peter Mora, “Urge and Molecular
Biology,” Nature, Vol. 199, #4890 July 20, 1963, P 212 emphasis added.

“No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of
Evolution” (Pierre-Paul Grosse, Evolutionist)

“Considering the way the PREBIOTIC SOUP is referred to in so many
discussions of the origin of life as an already established reality, it
comes as something of a shock to realize that THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO
POSITIVE EVIDENCE FOR ITS EXISTENCE.” (Michael Denton, “Evolution: A
Theory In Crisis”, Bethesda, Maryland: Adler and Adler Publishers, 1985)
p. 261, emphasis added.

“The probability…of the convergent evolution of TWO proteins with
approximately the SAME structure and function is TOO LOW TO BE PLAUSIBLE,
EVEN WITH ALL POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE PRESENT WHICH SEEM TO HEIGHTEN
THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH CONVERGENCE. If this is so, then the plausibility
of a random evolution to two or more different but functionally related
proteins seems hardly greater.” (Evolutionist Paul Erbich, “On the
Probability of the Emergence of a Protein with a Particular Function”
Acta Biotheoretic, Vol. 34 (1985), pp. 53-80 quote is from the abstract
with emphasis added.

“The set of genetic instructions for humans is roughly THREE BILLION
LETTERS LONG.” (Genetics experts Radman and Wagner, “The High Fidelity
of DNA Duplication” Scientific American, Vol. 259, #2 (august 1988) pp.
40-46 emphasis added.

“Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random
is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to
think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends,
are in every respect deliberate…It is, therefore, almost inevitable
that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence —
even to the limit of God.” (Evolutionist Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra
Wickramasinghe, “Evolution from Space” London: J.M. Dent and Company,
1981, pp. 141,144)

“The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter of one to
the number of 40,000 noughts after it… IT IS BIG ENOUGH TO BURY DARWIN
AND THE WHOLE THEORY OF EVOLUTION. There was no primeval soup, neither
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful
intelligence.” (“Hoyle On Evolution”, Nature Vol. 294, #5837 November
12, 1981, p. 148 emphasis added.

‘…there are very few empirical facts of direct relevance and perhaps no
facts relating to the actual transition from organic material to material
that can even remotely be described as living… The time scale (the
supposed 5-billion year old age of Earth) IS GROSSLY INADEQUATE AND THE
INFORMATION CONTENT THAT IS NEEDED TO PRODUCE LIFE IS SO VAST THAT IT IS
IMPOSSIBLE TO ACTUALLY ARRIVE AT THAT FINAL STEP ON EARTH…”
(Evolutionist N. Chandra Wickramasinghe in Vol. 325 of Philosophical
Transcripts of the Royal Society of London (1988) pp./ 611-618 (quote
>from page 611) emphasis added.

“No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection.
No one has ever gotten near it. (Dr. Colin Patterson, Evolutionist)

“Micromutations do occur, but the theory that these alone can account for
evolutionary change is EITHER FALSIFIED, or else it is an unfalsifiable,
hence METAPHYSICAL theory. If suppose that nobody will deny that it is a
great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes ADDICTED TO A
FALSE THEORY. But this what has happened in biology… I believe that
ONE DAY THE DARWINIAN MYTH WILL BE RANKED THE GREATEST DECEIT IN THE
HISTORY OF SCIENCE. When this happens many people will pose the
question: “How did this ever happen?” )S. Lovtrup, Evolutionist,
“Darwinism; The refutation of a Myth” London: Droom Helm. 1987, p 422
emphasis added.

“Radiometric dating is an exceedingly crude instrument with which to
measure our strata and I can think of no occasion where it has been put
to an immediate practical use. Apart from very ‘modern examples’, which
are really archaeology…” (Derek Ager, Geologist and Evolutionist)

There is much much more but why go on…?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God
made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:53 PDT 1996
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Subject: Re: The faith of an evolutionist
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Aaron Bergman wrote:
>
> bud ([email protected]) wrote:
>
> Don’t double space your posts. It’s incredibly annoying.
>
> : To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =
> : ever required of a Bible-believing Christian. To believe that all things =
>
> Funny. I’ve seen evidence of it happening.
>
> : happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order =
> : requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker. This =
>
> Here’s a fun experiment. Watch ice freeze. Note that ice is a
> crystal (of sorts). Note that water is very disordered. Ask
> yourself how the (relative) order of ice comes out of the
> disorder of water.
>
> : argument is a matter of “belief.” If you believe when you walk into a =
> : room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =
> : yet believe it just “evolved” there rather than somebody constructing =
> : it…
>
> Look at diamonds. They formed naturally and are incredibly
> ordered. Look at rivers. They are perfectly suited for
> transportation, yet they formed naturally.
>
> : Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =
> : facts.
>
> Like what.
>
> : Still, one “believes” what one wants to, but science has nothing =
> : to do with it. Evolution is a relgion, a “belief” system, and one that I =
> : reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience. =
>
> Bullshit. First, microevolution is a _fact_. If you don’t believe
> me, go get a form of drug resistant TB. Second of all,
> transitional forms exist. Thirdly, the genetic evidence for
> evolution is overwhelming. Fourthly, you can trace the development
> of many body parts throughout history. Fifthly, the human body is
> not perfectly designed. Do you want me to go on?
>
> Care to tell me your evidence for creationism? And order doesn’t
> come out of disorder is not evidence as it is false.
>
> Aaron
> —
> Aaron Bergman — [email protected]
>
> The quote left intentionally blank.

fact is that everything you express here is an exercise of your “faith”
in the explanation of these things. Suggest you read “Evolution, A
Theory in Crisis” by Robert Denton (published by Adler & Adler ISBN
0-917561-05-8), Here’s a sample of his conclusions: “The intuitive
feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the degree of
complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature hasw been a contining
source of scepticism ever since the publication of the ‘Origin of the
Species;’ and throught the past century there has always existed a
significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to
bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims… Perhaps in
no other areas of modern bilooby is the challenge posed by the extreme
complexity and ingenuity of bilogical adaptations more apparent than in
the fascinating new molecuar world of the cell… To grasp the reality of
life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnifiy a
cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter
and resembles a giant ariship large enough to covfer a great city like
London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of
unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell
we would see millions of openings. like the port holes of a vast space
ship, opening and closing to allow a continual steam of materials to flow
in and out. If we were to enter one of these openingswe sould find
ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity…
Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a
relaity, the smallest element of which–a functional protein or gene–is
complex beyondour own creative capacities, a reality which is the very
antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by
the intelligence of man?”

You simply have to have “faith” to be an Evolutionist.

Denton is a biologist and a still a “believer” in Evolution who has
nonetheless. He’s looking for another platform… but he has destroyed
the theory of the Evolution of life forms. Microevolution has been
observed, but not Macroevolution, which is the “belief” in the “theory”
that must be exercised by Evolutionist. There are no transitional life
forms, etc. etc. Evolution, like it or not, is a theory that attempts to
get away from a Creator and such. But this is your privilege — to
“believe” in it. And one other thing… Try to avoid using profanity
when discussing the issue. Your frustration with the weakness of your
belief system should not make you respond this way.

You want me to go on?

“The judgement of history depends on who writes it” (Richard Nixon)

 

From [email protected] Mon Aug 5 15:22:34 PDT 1996
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