Fleisher 0696-1, Fleisher Bud

[email protected] wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: [email protected] (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
>
> >The Mediator wrote:
>
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> The Mediator wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty. I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don’t believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don’t worship “the Christian” God and you don’t
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which “god” do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from “The Word of God”, the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don’t even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn’t written anywhere it can’t be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>> translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>> versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our ‘information’. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our ‘inspiration’. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
>
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some “facts”.
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I’ll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common’ give me some substance.
>
> >>The Mediator
>
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis. I’ll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
>
> >Let’s take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
>
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
>
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
>
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held. I’ll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble –
> >oops, holy bible – regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?). Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window? Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
>
> >4. What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
>
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
>
> >6. The situation after landfall is equally bad. With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
>
> >7. How did all the different continents get populated? Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
>
> >8. Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen. Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn’t enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
>
> >Time for your lame apologetics – insert them here. Remember – you said
> >two for one.
>
> >Rich Bennett
> >”Faith – the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime.”
>
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> “The Incredible Discover of Noah’s Ark” by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
>
> Love in Christ,
>
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many
years now over and over again). You should write to the Institute for
Creationism in Santee, California. They have hundreds of tapes, videos
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 21:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 40740 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 13:28:20 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: I agree in part
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Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >Matt Giwer ([email protected]) whines:
>
> > Who cares about the rest?
>
> >Certainly not Mr. Giwer! He doesn’t care about the Jewish victims or
> >any of the other victims of the Nazis, but that does not prevent him
> >from unfairly criticizing those who do care for not caring enough to
> >suit his unreasonable demands.
>
> I really do not care if anyone cares or not. Nothing is going to
> bring any of them back to life. I am simply pointing out the
> attitude of the holohuggers, that only Jews matter.
>
> There is a thing popularly closed closure when it comes to a
> death in the family. One has to get over it. If people carried
> on 50 years later about the death of family members the way the
> holohuggers carry on about the holocaust they would be pitied and
> good friends would urge counseling.
>
> > They are hardly worth mentioning.
>
> >And Mr. Giwer only mentions them in order to use them as club to beat
> >Jews with — the same Jews who are responsible for publicizing the
> >fate of these “others” to the uncaring world, especially the callous
> >Mr. Giwer himself!
>
> As you remember, when I first used the tagline about the other
> six million being a footnote, I had to explain who the other six
> million were.
>
> > After all, Jews were less than half, so they should be the only
> > ones remembered.
>
> >Mr. Giwer said it, but he is trying to blame the rest of us for it!
>
> Blame for what? Who is this “us” you are talking about? Do you
> have a friend with you while you are typing?
>
> > It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> > the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>
> >For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many survived, but
> >how much attention he could get from insulting the memory of the dead.
>
> Find a more appropriate conference.
>
> —–
>
> It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

While I do not agree with “all” of what Mr. Giwer says, I do agree with
his objection to this special attention given one group of people. From
my last investigations, there were over 60 million casualties from WW2,
most of the civilians. I read in several publications where the estimate
of the German civilian dead (men, women, children too!) was over 15
million. If we are going to remember the dead, I don’t think it’s proper
to ignore the many other millions who died… And, to be frank, in
general the media does just this injustice repeatedly — it’s wrong!
Also, I just fail to see why one could not find “joy” in learning that
maybe “less” than thought perished. My God, Gents, think of it–millions
perhaps who were spared the carnage. I find this rigid adherence to
some “magic” figure (such as 6 million) to be almost tantamount to a
“religious morbidness” with some of the reactions on this news posting.

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 21:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 40742 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 13:39:58 -0700
From: Bud
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Now I don’t agree!
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Jason Silverman wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (tom
> moran) wrote:
>
> > 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews holocaust
> > bombing of Lebanon’s vital installations for survival like electrical
> > power plants that operate hospitals and such with American supplied
> > arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for “2 minutes” in respect for
> > Holocaust “Day of Rememberance.
> >
> >
> > In the L.A.Times, same day, “Rotunda Rite in Rememberance of
> > Holocaust” it was reported that the main responsible parties for
> > supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
> > in observance or Day of Rememberance.
> > “Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
> > justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony …”
> >
> > It didn’t say how many members of congress attended, but it also
> > reported that “Shortly after, the House passed, 420 – 0, a resolution
> > deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
> > Holocaust.
> > It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban the
> > right of anyone to deny the “reality” but this is all they dared right
> > now. But it could be a prelude.
> > In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
> > the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
> > the Mideast.
>
> tommy,
>
> Do you really want to announce to all of us in such a forceful manner that
> you are so far from original that you are derivative from the illiterate
> H*ber? Well, allright, if you insist — but please be aware that it’s one
> thing to be a sheep, but quite another to be a sheep following a month
> behind the rest of the flock. This useless, meaningless crap was posted
> several weeks ago. It was a waste of bandwidth then, as it is now.
>
> Get a fucking clue.
>
> -JMS

I do not see what the ad homenim attacks agains Tom Moran have to do with
the issue, Jason. He expresses his concern over what seems to be a
biased bent by the news and even the Congress of the U.S. How much
legitimacy there is might be in question, but your vulgar, verbal attacks
on his personality only seem to point out that he is winning his point,
while you call him names. I don’t agree with your method, Mr. Silverman,
and as I have said often on this group, it seems that in too many cases
the attacks are of a personal nature, and fail miserably to answer what
is being postulated.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 12:07:03 PDT 1996
Article: 102673 of alt.pagan
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
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[email protected] wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: [email protected] (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
>
> >The Mediator wrote:
>
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> The Mediator wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty. I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don’t believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don’t worship “the Christian” God and you don’t
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which “god” do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from “The Word of God”, the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don’t even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn’t written anywhere it can’t be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>> translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>> versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our ‘information’. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our ‘inspiration’. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
>
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some “facts”.
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I’ll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common’ give me some substance.
>
> >>The Mediator
>
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis. I’ll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
>
> >Let’s take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
>
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
>
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
>
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held. I’ll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble –
> >oops, holy bible – regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?). Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window? Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
>
> >4. What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
>
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
>
> >6. The situation after landfall is equally bad. With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
>
> >7. How did all the different continents get populated? Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
>
> >8. Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen. Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn’t enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
>
> >Time for your lame apologetics – insert them here. Remember – you said
> >two for one.
>
> >Rich Bennett
> >”Faith – the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime.”
>
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> “The Incredible Discover of Noah’s Ark” by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
>
> Love in Christ,
>
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many
years now over and over again). You should write to the Institute for
Creationism in Santee, California. They have hundreds of tapes, videos
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 13:53:09 PDT 1996
Article: 103355 of alt.2600
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
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alt.religion.scientology,alt.rock-n-roll,alt.sa
Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: [email protected] (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
>
> >The Mediator wrote:
>
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> The Mediator wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty. I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don’t believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don’t worship “the Christian” God and you don’t
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which “god” do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from “The Word of God”, the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don’t even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn’t written anywhere it can’t be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>> translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>> versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our ‘information’. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our ‘inspiration’. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
>
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some “facts”.
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I’ll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common’ give me some substance.
>
> >>The Mediator
>
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis. I’ll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
>
> >Let’s take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
>
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
>
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
>
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held. I’ll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble –
> >oops, holy bible – regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?). Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window? Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
>
> >4. What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
>
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
>
> >6. The situation after landfall is equally bad. With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
>
> >7. How did all the different continents get populated? Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
>
> >8. Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen. Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn’t enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
>
> >Time for your lame apologetics – insert them here. Remember – you said
> >two for one.
>
> >Rich Bennett
> >”Faith – the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime.”
>
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> “The Incredible Discover of Noah’s Ark” by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
>
> Love in Christ,
>
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many
years now over and over again). You should write to the Institute for
Creationism in Santee, California. They have hundreds of tapes, videos
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 3 19:04:11 PDT 1996
Article: 40916 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 11:40:15 -0700
From: Bud
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran is winning
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Moran is winning.

I know that to so many of those on this newsgroup this will be =

infuriating, after reading some (admittedly not all) of the postings this =

is my conclusion. My reason for coming to this conclusion is , I =

believe, true and based on good evidence. Primarily I believe this is =

true because for months now I have read his postings and the accusatory, =

heated personal attacks, the inflammatory, threatening personal attacks, =

the latest posting indicating he is even getting some =93special=94 page =

mounted from his opposition–!
(As for Matt Giwer… Well, I haven=92t read enough of his =93stuff=94 and =
his =

adversaries to draw this conclusion, but if he is going to be handled =

with the same methodology…

But Moran is winning,and it=92s a shame because…

I have been asked on several occasions to read his postings more =

carefully. I have. Sure there are some instances where he =

has=93broad-brushed=94 a particular group (by using =93all=94 etc.,), but h=
e does =

not do this =93all=94 of the time; but I do not note any of the violence or=
=

personal attacks so numerous as those directed at him. =

Moran is winning and it=92s a shame, because…

Very often (not always) his point is completely ignored and the only =

reply he receives is rhetorical name-calling, or some =93personal quip or =

accusation and such, without a shred of it having to do with his point. =

Now to any reasonable man, one who is willing to learn about and =

understand the basis of debate, this type of response show a weakness of =

either evidence or control by the opposition…

I have not seen an instance (although there might be one) where Moran has =

engaged in name-calling or even =93abused=94 his right of/to dissent. I ha=
ve =

seen so much accusation towards him in this regard, that I cannot help =

but feel he is attacked for his =93opinion=94 rather than for the issue at =

discussion. This is a glaring weakness on the part of most of his =

opposition.

Moran is winning and it=92s a shame because…

while he has a right to his opinion (and there are a few fanatics on this =

group who are foolish enough to believe =93his=94 =93free speech=94 should =
be =

sqelched), because HE MIGHT STILL BE WRONG ON MANY THINGS… BUT…

From [email protected] Tue Jun 4 16:35:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40942 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:31:22 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: Re: allied crimes are documented
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Chuck Ferree wrote:
> =

> >Subject: ZGram May 27, 1996 – “Sabina Again!”
> >Sent: 5/27/96 12:55 PM
> >Received: 6/1/96 11:00 AM
> >From: E. Zundel, [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >
> >Copyright (c) 1996, (Ingrid A. Rimland). All rights reserved.
> >You may put the ZGram on your web site or distribute it without charge a=
s
> >long as you check
> >with the Zundelsite (http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english) and add:
> >E-Mail: so reader=
s
> >can respond. Thank you!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >May 27, 1996
> >
> >Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
> =

> Greetings Ingrid,
> From Chuck Ferree
> I must comment on your last post regarding Allied War Crimes. As
> horrible as you made it sound, and as unlikely as it is that it
> happened as you tell us, I’m sure that you believe every bit of the
> horror stories. I don’t, and I’m convinced that most other people with
> a little common sense will look at your writings as a little on the
> exaggerated side. The worst part of your putting this kind of balony
> in your news letters, is the lack of any kind of balance. You are
> quick to point out terrible things which you allege happened to
> innocent German women. But I never read a word about how horrible the
> Nazi Holocaust really was. So believe me, everything you say is taken
> with a grain of salt, or as just plain fabrications. When you folks
> admit that Germany, the people of Germany, and their leaders behaved
> as war criminals, maybe then, some us will pay more attention to your
> far out claims. But with the lack of credibility existing on your
> part, we can’t accept what you say as the truth. I await your next
> acqusations against other Allied troops, with the hope that you will
> tell the truth and not lie about everything. Try it you might like it.
> =

> large clips (about the details of the law suit) Who Cares???!!!
> >
> >4. Finally-and this is esoteric but cuts to the core of this strugg=
le:
> >what those engaged in Holocaust Hucksterism
> =

> This kind of language and attitude removes any kind of balance or
> empathy that I personally might have toward your Nazi deniers. At
> least those of us fighting for the truth don’t mock your side as War
> Crimes “Hucksters,” maybe we should, because that’s pretty much what
> you do.
> =

> have never understood is the
> >profoundly mystical magnificence that poises and grounds people like Ern=
st
> >Z=FCndel.
> =

> The guy is a kook, Ingrid. Nothing mystical or magnificent about Ernst
> Zundel. Had this man been in Germany during the war, old enough to be
> a soldier or a guard in a Nazi concentration camp he would more than
> likely be history, hanged and justifiable so for his war crimes.
> >
> >We aren’t talking freedom, or loss of freedom, here. We aren’t talking
> >money. We aren’t talking hardship-grief, obstacles, vicissitude, distre=
ss,
> >woe, heartbreak, sorrow, sacrifice-not even death, as a whole war-time
> >generation of Germans has proven.
> =

> Gad, you want us to feel sorry for the entire generation of Germans,
> not to mention the Austrians who brought all of this on themselves. No
> way, Ingrid. The Nazis, got what they had coming, innocent Germans
> shouldn’t blame anyone but Hitler and those other Nazi turkeys. The
> other part of this is, most of the Nazi criminals got away with their
> war crimes. They were lucky that they got the hell out of the country
> and live pretty good all over South America. I have many German and
> Austrian friends, and they are good people. They don’t bitch and whine
> like you do, they know what happened and they don’t blame the Allies
> for their misery and guilt.
> >
> >We’re talking honor-the honor of a once-defeated people. This is about =
the
> >resurrection of an entire nation that will one day be cleansed from fals=
e
> >guilt.
> =

> False guilt, my behind. Come on, Ingrid, get real. This is silly stuff
> here! What about all the confessions? What about the attitude of the
> German government? The real leaders of Germany and Austria…(with the
> possible exception of Kurt Waldheim) acknowledge their guilt. They are
> honest enough to admit the horrible deeds they did to millions of
> innocent fellow countrymen and millions of others.
> >
> >I know this for a fact, for we have talked about it: For people like Er=
nst
> >Z=FCndel, the outcome does not matter except in superficial terms. The
> >outcome is already written in the stars.
> =

> Yeah right. Written in the stars. God mit Unce, as the Nazi daggers
> say. I have several of them taken from prisoners. They weren’t too
> proud when we nailed them. They tattled on each other as fast as they
> could talk. Bunch of cowards with out their boots and other military
> garbage.
> =

> Clips
> =

> >Ingrid
> >
> >Thought for the day:
> >
> >”There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to
> >endorse a law not supported by the people.”
> =

> Yeah that’s right! So you guys better be careful. Your mentor, Zundel
> may end up in the slammer for a long, long time.
> Chuck Ferree
> >
> >Hubert H. Humphrey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________
> >________________
> >________________ Dr. Ingrid Rimland is an internationally known keynote=

> >speaker and award-winning author of several books and hundreds of column=
s
> >and articles. http://www.webcom.com/ina/
> >
> >Her best-known books are “The Furies and the Flame,” an autobiography, a=
nd
> >”The Wanderers,” the epic account of a pacifist group of Mennonites
> >escaping during WW II from Communist persecution.
> >
> >
> >

Hi Chuck, this is bud. We’ve been in touch, so I hope you know where I =

stand 9at least currently) on many of these matters. You are wrong about =

Allied Crimes. Besides the ones my Uncle’s in the U.S. army told me =

about there are available several books on the subject. One of them is =

entitled “Other Losses’ by James Bacque, published by Prima Publishing. =

It has an interesting foreward by Dr. Ernest F. Fisher, Jr. Colonel in =

the U.S. Army, now retired and a former senior historian for the U.S. =

Army. Another is “An Eye For An Eye” by John Sack. It’s touted as “The =

untold Story of Jewish Revenge Against Germsns in 1945.” It’s a shocker, =

published by Harper books. Mr. Sack is Jewish and ultimately tries to =

make his book seem like some sort of “Jewish Redemption” (according to =

the backpage, but it’s replete with some of the most barbarious tortures =

and treatments. As I have said to you, before, Chuck, this time in =

history is being treated in a most biased manner (in my opinion) and =

NEITHER SIDE should be excused for their deeds. “To the Victors belong =

the spoils,” Chuck, and it also follows too, that the majority of the =

renditions of historical accounts also will and do belong to the =

victors… Just look at the imbalance in the media (bias towards =

Christians, etc.,) and this is starkly evident. Also, Chuck, I recently =

met a woman who came over here from Germany about 8 years ago and she =

related to me some horrofic tales of Allied mistreatment of Germans. =

Were we the “Good Guys?” Well, Chuck, maybe “better” but how much so?…

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 01:18:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40989 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:23:11 -0700
From: Bud
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: thank you, Alec
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Alec Grynspan wrote:
>
> Bud wrote:
> >
> > Moran is winning.
>
> More of the same silliness.
>
> You are as honest as he is – zero always equals zero.
>
> By the way – it’s spelled whining.

Thank you, Alec. You just proved my point…

From [email protected] Wed Jun 5 22:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41269 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:06:46 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: American Holocaust 34 million dead!
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Nationwide, over 34 million unborn babies have been killed in the 22 =

years since abortion
was legalized through the January 22, 1973 Supreme Court decision of Roe =

v. Wade. =

Today, in this country, an unborn child can be legally killed anytime =

throughout the entire
nine months of pregnancy…because he or she may be unwanted, =

inconvenient, possibly
imperfect, or even the wrong sex. Each year, an estimated 1.5 million =

babies are killed by
abortion, one baby every 20 seconds.

There are several methods of abortion:

DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): These abortions are usually done before 12 =

weeks gestation. In a D & C a tiny hoe-like instrument, called a suction =

cannula, is inserted into the womb. The abortionist then scrapes the =

wall of the uterus, cutting the baby’s body to pieces. Body parts are =

then pulled out piece by piece through the cervix. The scraping of the =

uterus typically involves some bleeding and other possible side effects =

that women often find quite painful.

SUCTION ASPIRATION: (Also called “vacuum aspiration”) This method of =

abortion is used in 90% of all abortions done prior to 12 weeks. A tube =

is inserted through the cervix into the uterus and connected to a strong =

suction apparatus. The vacuum is so powerful that the tiny baby and the =

placenta are torn to pieces and sucked out into a jar. Although the baby =

is extremely small, body parts are often easily identified. Sometimes =

this method follows a D & C. Infections, damage, and pain in the cervix =

and uterus can result.

SALINE INJECTION: (Salt Poisoning) After sixteen weeks, with this =

procedure, a long needle is inserted through the mother=92s abdomen and a =

solution of concentrated salt is injected into the amniotic fluid which =

surrounds the child. The baby breathes in and swallows the solution and =

usually dies in one to two hours, sometimes death takes many hours, from =

salt poisoning, dehydration, convulsions, hemorrhages of the brain and =

failure of other organs. The baby’s skin is burned by the salt. The =

baby’s thrashing, caused by the trauma of the saline, can be physically =

painful to his mother, and is often psychologically devastating to her. =

The mother goes into labor and a dead baby is delivered, usually within =

24 to 48 hours.

PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION: This drug causes a woman to go into labor at any =

stage of pregnancy. It is generally used in middle to late pregnancy to =

induce abortion. The potent hormone-like drug, prostaglandin, is =

injected into the amniotic sac. It produces labor and premature birth. =

The unborn baby, in some cases, is born alive and placed aside to die. =

In order to avoid what abortionists describe as =93The Dreaded =

Complication=94 of a live birth from a prostaglandin or salt-poisoning, =

abortionists now customarily kill the child first before =93evacuating=94 t=
he =

baby. Abortionists use ultrasound to guide an injection of lethal =

potassium chloride into an unborn baby=92s heart. Other abortionists use =

an injection of digoxin to cause fetal cardiac arrest. Sometimes salt is =

injected first, to kill the baby before birth and make the procedure less =

distressful for the mother. This method results in a very painful =

abortion for the mother. Prostaglandins are accompanied by serious =

problems of their own, including potentially lethal side effects. =

HYSTEROTOMY: A hysterotomy or Caesarean section abortion is used in the =

last trimester. The womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the =

abdomen. It is the same as a live delivery except that the baby is =

killed in the uterus, or is allowed to die from neglect if he is not yet =

dead upon removal. This surgical method is done if a saline or =

prostaglandin abortion has failed or when a tubal ligation is done. This =

is a major surgery with inherent difficulties, possible complications, =

and a potentially painful recovery.

DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&X): This method of abortion (also known as a =

Partial Birth Abortion) was publically unveiled in 1992 and is used to =

kill babies from 20 weeks through full term. Because the opening of the =

woman’s cervix must be greatly enlarged, the abortion requires three days =

with repeated visits for insertion of laminaria. These are cylindrical =

shaped or tapered devices which are inserted into the cervix and which =

gradually increase in diameter as they absorb water to dilate the cervix. =

Three days later the abortion is performed. The abortionist ruptures the =

membranes and drains the amniotic fluid. Using an ultrasound on the =

mother’s abdomen, the baby is identified and orientated within the =

uterus. Having turned the unborn baby inside the uterus so that he or =

she is orientated feet first and face down toward the floor, the =

abortionist inserts forceps into the vagina, the cervical canal, and into =

the uterus and grasps one of the baby’s legs. The other leg with the =

remainder of the torso up to the baby’s neck is then pulled outside of =

the uterus. The head is “usually” too large to deliver, so a blunt =

scissors is inserted into the base of the living baby’s skull and spread =

apart to enlarge the hole. The scissors are removed and a suction tube =

is inserted into the skull and the brains are suctioned out or =

“evacuated.” This kills the baby, collapses the head, and the child is =

removed. Then the afterbirth is cut away. To put the size of the unborn =

baby at 20 weeks of development into perspective, the majority of D&X =

aborted babies weigh about a pound, are approximately 8 inches in length =

(measuring from the top of the head to the bottom of the rump), and are =

fully formed, with feet roughly 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches in length. Babies =

born at this stage of development (19 or 20 weeks) have survived. =

RU 486: The French-developed “abortion pill” is a powerful anti-hormone =

(steroid) called mifepristone that interrupts the natural life process by =

inhibiting production of the progesterone necessary to prepare the =

uterine wall to support the pregnancy. As a result, the tiny developing =

baby literally starves to death as the nutrient lining of the womb =

sloughs off, and muscular contractions cause the dead baby to be expelled =

>from the uterus. It is used to induce abortions between the fifth to =

ninth weeks of pregnancy. Women first take RU486 alone. Within 48 =

hours, only three percent have a completed abortion. The remainder of =

the women, ninety-seven percent, must take a second powerful drug, a =

prostaglandin. In approximately five to ten percent of the women who use =

the RU486 abortion method, the drugs fail to kill the developing baby and =

the women usually have follow-up surgical abortions. RU486 can cause =

severe disabilities in babies who survive the abortion, can injure and =

possibly kill women, and could harm a woman’s subsequent offspring. =

Preliminary findings of the first independent studies reveal serious =

under- reporting of the abortion technique’s adverse side effects. At =

present, RU486 is only licensed for use in France, Britain and Sweden. =

It is being tested in other countries, including the United States, with =

the objective of marketing it extensively over the next several years. =

With RU486, a mother will more directly participate in ending the life of =

her unborn child, and verify that she has passed the “uterine content” =

that is her dead baby. Nearly half of the French women polled report =

that they find this verification process disturbing.

UPDATE: METHOTREXATE AND MISOPROSTOL: Researchers have discovered that =

two prescription pharmaceuticals, Methotrexate (prescribed to combat =

cancer and rheumatoid arthritis) and Misoprostol (prescribed as a =

preventative against ulcers caused by common anti-inflammatory drugs) =

when prescribed in tandem can induce an abortion. A few doctors have =

recently used the drugs to induce abortion, while the Food and Drug =

Administration has approved the drugs to treat cancer and ulcers. Both =

drugs act on a woman’s reproductive system. Methotrexate interferes with =

the vitamin folic acid and kills rapidly growing cells. It has been used =

for the termination of ectopic pregnancies…the life-threatening =

condition in which fertilized eggs grow outside the uterus. Methotrexate =

is a toxic drug that is normally administered by doctors experienced with =

anti-metabolite therapy. Toxic effects such as nausea, pain, diarrhea, =

bone marrow depression, anemia, liver damage and lung disease are noted =

as occurring even at low doses. Misoprostol causes uterine contractions =

and is sometimes used off-label to soften the cervix when inducing labor. =

The women receive an injection of methotrexate and return 5 to 7 days =

later to receive the misoprostol vaginally. The women return home, where =

cramping and bleeding begins and the baby is usually aborted within =

twenty-four hours. As with RU486, the mother will more directly =

participate in ending the life of her unborn child, and verify that she =

has passed the “uterine content” that is her dead baby. No longer will =

an abortionist be present to share the guilt, or even a nurse to conceal =

the baby’s tiny body. More than ever, women will be alone in dealing =

with the physical and psychological aftermath of an abortion. The drugs =

must be administered by the ninth week of pregnancy, after that, =

excessive bleeding is likely. Long term effects of the two drugs are =

unknown.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 6 14:02:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41445 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 08:05:13 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: a reasonable response
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Hello Mike: Thanks for your more responsible answer. I only wish more
of you on both sides would do the same — really.
I think I have to make myself clear once again, Mike. I am not saying
that the holocaust did not happen. It appears to me that any reasonable
man has to admit that something “like it” happened. If we are going to
take hundreds of eye-witness testimony and toss it out the window, the
we’d have to take a huge part of our legal system and to the same! I do
not think that “all” eyewitness testimony is viable, but when you have so
many… well, reasonable men have to give them the benefit of the doubt,
and then the burden of proving them liars remains on THEIR accusors!
What I have been trying to say, here is that while I don’t know exactly
how many of a particular group died, I don’t like the way some of the
exterminationists (I don’t like that name, but it seems to be accepted in
some circles) approach this when some of the stories are brought into
question. Also, I still don’t think that this period in history should
be so touted as the icon for human history. It represents an unfair
imbalance. So, whether or not it was 3 million, or 6 million (must be at
least 40 or more million died all over the world!) when any nation
deliberately sets out to methodically murder any group or groups of
people they deserve to be punished, world consciousness would demand
that! But there is still a very unfair imbalance, and this bothers me.
So, let me state it again. I DO NOT deny the holocaust, only question
SOME of the bizarre stories that keep emerging. Many of the Jewish
scholars themselves have had to “revise” some of the stories. If you
want to call what happened in Europe during that period a “holocaust”
then fine, it’s brutal, calculated murder in any terms and needs to be
avoided at any cost in the future. But again, Mike, there are other (to
me) inhuman holocausts going on right here in American right now. The
slaughter, tearing apart limb-by-limb of over 34 million babies aborted
in our so-called “fair land.” ! This, to me, is a holocaust! However,
despite my deep anger at those who support this horrible crime against
humanity, I DO NOT seek to silence those who oppose my view, and it seems
that many of the exterminationists do, and ON THIS and other points I
have tried to make, I will… I believe I am right to do so. Again,
sure, the holocaust (as it is termed by some) happened, if by that we
mean the cruel, planned, premeditated murder of people! Gas Chambers,
bullets, whatever was used, this kind of crap ultimately nothing to do
with the fact they were murdered! Hell, when a child is murdered, I don’t
knitpick about what particular method the abortionist used — THE CHILD
WAS MURDERED, PERIOD! So, if it makes somebody happier to see me write
that “a” “holocaust” happened — of course it did. Are all of the
stories true? Of course they’re not ALL true! So what, that doesn’t
obviate the hundreds of other horrendous stories documented! Nor does it
make one innocent “holocaust” (murder) victim less valuable any more than
those 34 million children, Mike! I just hope to see more restraint in
dealing with opposing views on the question. The “violence” and
“overly-charged emotion” in many cases to me serves to cloud the issue,
which is, in the final analysis to me, the inherent value of a human life
and to do whatever must be done to be absolutely certain there are ways
to end the killing (“holocaust”, whatever…)

You can post this up if you want, Mike. I’m not ashamed of my view, or
the way I try to approach it. Alec Greenspan is still wrong in his
method…

From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 07:11:21 PDT 1996
Article: 41552 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 19:36:49 -0700
From: Bud
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: in response
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This was in response to email which was once again sent to my personal
email rather than posted to the newsgroup as it should have been. Since
I think it is appropriate to some of my objections to some of the
shennanigans going on, I decided to put it up here for others to read. I
have replaced the name of the person to whom I replied to with… but
this was my response, and I think this is also appropriate.

… Your being in the war does not in any way indicate or prove that
you were “everywhere” to see or witness “everything”. You are
singular-minded, … , and could not have read those books I mentioned
and responded in such a manner. I think you are on this line to find a
“fight” rather than the truth, …. Perhaps you are too old to change
your mind or let in new information. The truth is that as time goes on
there are always new truths and revelations that historians unearth, and
it is often upsetting to those of us who have been brought up to believe
in certain dogmatic truths. Can you imagine if they “really” ever did
find and definitely identify the remains of Jesus Christ!? Historical
reality isn’t as narrow as you would have it defined, …, and the
research of many historians overrides your preferences and mine
collectively. But you are entitled to your stand, but I think you are
being narrow in your approach. …, it wasn’t the Australians who
dropped the atom bomb on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of men,
women and children. It wasn’t the Australian who firebombed Dresden
killing over 100,000 civilians in one day. We could go on about this,
but you are right in that this has nothing to do with the holocaust
question, but I DID NOT PUT THIS INTO THE discussion, YOU DID. Finally,
it’s best if we stick to putting our postings on the net newsgroup where
all can see them and give their input, such as it is done in these
circles…

From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 16:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 83703 of alt.censorship
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud
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Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
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