[email protected] wrote:
This will be fun. posted/emailed
The readers of this thread get a splendid, typical and predictable
response by and advocate of hatred and obfuscation. See how rapidly
these deniers descend to name-calling, outrage and obvious lying when
faced by a polite but well-documented response to their attempts to
distort the facts.
They all start by posting a polite note, quoting sources and giving
references. They believe that nobody else has the books that they
quote, picking on obscure or hard-to-obtain references for their
attack.
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>
>
>> Let us not lose sight of the fact that the main perpetrators of
>> the gassings have admitted using these gas chambers. Blackmore
>> and his ilk are attempting to lay red herrings
>
>There you go again, stealing my definitions. It is people
>like you and Danny who plant red herrings all over the
>place.
>
How very droll. Mr. Blackmore claims the “red-herring”
statement to be his. He adds plagiarism to his sins:
From:
_The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical
Priciples_
William Little et al.
c. 1980, Oxford University Press
[Vol. II — Page 1772]
“RED HERRING, late ME. *collect..* Herring to which a red
colour is imparted in the process of curing them with smoke.
b. A single herring is cured in this way. 1460
Phr. *Neither fish (nor) flesh nor good red herring,*
etc.:
see FISH *sb*. 3 *To draw a red h. across the track:* to
attempt to draw the diversion from the real question; hence
*red-herring,* a subject intended to have this effect.
> across the road
>> in the hope that we (and the audience) will be distracted by
>> some minor inconsistencies
>
>Minor!? Inconsistencies!? Lies, is more like it.
>
Mr. Blackmore and fume and rage and stamp his little feet in the
dirt, but that will not change the fact that he has distorted
testimony and added his own comments which are grossly incorrect. He
refuses to accept court methodology relating to convergence of
evidence. In fact he pretended it wasn’t there to read. This is
another technique of the distortionist: pretend that the uncomfortable
is not there.
> in the testimony of witnesses who
>> were not only frightened and hungry, but who only had a
>> glimpse of the gassing facilities.
>
>Frightened? Hungry? At the Belsen trial? Maybe…
>Frightened that she might be charged with perjury
>and hungry for blind vengeance…..
>
Vengeance?!? What could possibly be the witnesses’ grounds for
seeking veneance? To hear Mr. Blackmore and his ilk talk
about Auschwitz and Belsen, the people illegally incarcerated
and butchered there were on some sort of a lark.
The inmates were hungry and frightened when they witnessed
the atrocities. They lived in fear of their lives on starvation diets
all the while witnessing killings, beatings, and general
mistreatment. Minor inconsistencies in their testimony are to be
expected when acting as witnesses to events that took place
several years before the trial.
>A “glimpse” of the “gassing” facilities”? Not quite-
>she was given a grand tour of the “Black Museum”….
>
Mr. Blackmore’s obvious hatred and fevered imagination are
getting the best of him. In no place does the witness claim
to have been given a “grand tour” of the gas chambers. Mr.
Blackmore is challenged to document the exact amount of
time that the witness spent in the gas chamber. He can’t and
he won’t.
> Readers should be warned
>> about this.
>
>Readers should also be warned about THIS:
>
>This perjuring witness testified to a figure of 4 million
>gassed Jews at Auschwitz, as well as testifying that
>a woman was a man and a man was a woman….all
>this from an alleged doctor! Go figure……..
This question has been addressed in a previous communication.
Mr. Blackmore is re-heating old soup. Curious minds can
retrieve the posted notes and satisfy themselves on what
was said. Mr. Blackmore chooses to ignore the posted
evidence and make ad hominem responses.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore is now resorting to the amonymous and “somebody told
>> me,”
>
>I wrote: Someone sent me these observations to post and I did because
>they are worthy of addressing. End of story, but Mike wishes to ascribe
>his motives to other people.
>
Learned readers of this thread will disallow Mr. Blackmore’s
protestations. When entrapped by the truth, deniers turn to ‘it is so
because I say so’ or they invent an anonymous ‘someone’ to confirm
their depressing and false allegations. This reminds me of the Baron
ploy when confronted with the writing of an old lady. Baron complained
that others were decieving her. This was humorous when one considered
that the very views of Mr. Baron could be found in the old lady’s
book. What was Mr. Baron telling her. Who is directing Mr. Blackmore?
>> undocumented canard. What a pity. If said “browser” had posted his
>> comments on alt.revisionism, a discussion on the subject at hand
>> would have some validity.
>
>Right. So they could be attacked like others? I think not.
Uh oh! A thin-skinned denier that is afraid of being “attacked like
others!” Is Mr. Blackmore flaunting his courage by taking all of the
verbal brickabats that would otherwise be flung at the anonymous
“somebody.” This simply does not stand up to scrutiny. It is much more
likely that Mr. Blackmore has crated this “somebody” in order to
deflect accurate and substantiated criticism.
>>
>> Br. Blackmore has regressed, as most deniers eventually do, to
>> innuendo and hollow rhetoric.
>
>Talking about yourself again? That is all you have ever offered.
>
Mr. Blackmore now resorts to the Pee Wee Herman School of
Rhetoric: ” I know you are but what am I?”
> The points that he attempts to make are
>> totally unsupported by the documentation.
>
>What documentation? Let’s have it?
>
Mr. Blackmore has the documentation. One presumes that he is
literate and enterprising enough to read the posts. Here he actually
has the gall to ask me for the documentation to prove his point. What
does this suggest?
> Sadly, but in keeping with
>> his custom Mr. Blackmore does not quote the exact testimony of the
>> witness,
>
>I refer the readers to “The Belsen trial”. It is available in most
>university libraries.
Absolutely. Curious readers should compare what Mr. Blackmore
leads us to believe what the witnesses are saying and what is
written in black and white in the book.
> It is not my intention nor ever was, to
>reprint the whole testimony of these individuals. If you want to, go ahead.
>I am concerned only with their credibility, so I post where they have
>obviously lied.
>
Mr. Blackmore only posts fragmented pieces of the testimony and
does so in a very misleading manner. He knows he is doing this.
> nor doe he afford us the page numbers in which this
>> accounting — mostly ficticious — appears.
>
>Nonsense. You lie with a straight face, Mike.
>That much is clear. here are the page numbers:
>67, 68.
If Mr. Blackmore will take the trouble to review the documents posted
he will find that he has quoted from pages other than 67 and 68.
>>
>> >
>> >She describes the building as brick. The area now said to have been
>> >used for gas chambers is made of reinforced concrete, not brick.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore is resorting to outright fabrication. What the text
>> says is:
>
>(snip)
>Wrong again, Mike. I merely posted what someone sent to
>me.
>
Ah, yes, the mysterious “someone.” Sorry. Perhaps in the future Mr.
Blackmore will verify the quality of the information he is re-posting.
This is what *I* would do. Blindly posting someone elses distortions
reminds one of the blind leading the blind.
> The witness states that the BUILDING was made
>> of brick, and indeed it was. There are a great many photographs in
>> the literature showing the construction of the Auschwitz crematoriums.
>> These were constructed of BRICK.
>
>The Krema was of brick, the alleged gas chamber, which she is describing
>was NOT made of brick. She lied. More of Mike”s “Dirty Dancing”.
>>
> This photo, one of several dozen in Pressac, shows the South
>> and
>> East sides of Krema IV.
>
>She wasn’t in Krema IV.
>
Oh? Which Krema was she in? Does the witness state which
of the crematoriums she visited. Not at all. Mr. Blackmore
once again resorts to his red-herring technology.
Not that it matters because _all_ the crematoriums in Auschwitz
were constructed of brick. Mr. Blackmore was referred to one
photograph which would serve as an example. If he would
bother to look at Pressac’s book, or Dwork/van Pelt’s book
as the more lucid readers of this post have done, he will
recognize that brick was the material of choice.
> Only one who is totally invident will
>> notice that the building is made of brick.
>
>>
>> Photo 296: “Ruins of gas chamber no. 2.” The photo shows a
>> pile of rubble consisting mainly of bricks.
>
>Krema ruins. Not the gas chamber.
Not so. The caption clearly states that the rubble came from a gas
chamber. But that is also irrelevant. The witness mentioned that
the BUILDING was constructed of BRICK, not the GAS CHAMBER.
[snip]
>And 24 dummy shower heads were supposed to convince 600 people
>that these facilities were for them to take a shower? I think NOT.
Mr. Blackmore thinks therefore he errs. What he thinks has nothing to
do with the evidence. Thinking something leads one to research and
gather support for one’s suppositions. Deniers do not do this for this
is work.
>These shower heads were probably destined for those workers who
>were employed in the Krema or the morgue. Your interpretation
>doesn’t make ANY sense.
Mr. Blackmore can read Pressac and come to the same conclusion
intelligent people have come to.
>
>There were no drains? A lie, again, because in the vast literature
>abounding concerning the gas chambers it is said that the room had
>to be washed down after every “gassing” due to the blood, body
>fluids, and other residues.
Some gas chambers had drains. Others did not. Mr. Blackmore is
challenged to discover which did and didn’t.’This will probably
another question Mr. Blackmore will ignore.
> As the ramp led DOWN into the alleged gas
>chamber, one could harly imagine the residues being washed UP the long
>ramp. So there HAD to be drains. Ergo, Bimko LIED.
There was no ramp. Only stairs, and only in two of the Kremas.
Which ones, Mr. Blackmore?
>. Once he has done so and, of course, apologized to
>>
>> the readers of this group for the misleading and falacious statements
>
>It is you who needs to apologize or crawl away in shame……
>
More from the Pee Wee Herman School of Rhetoric.
>> While he is doing this he might wish to have someone explain
>> Avogadro’s principle, Dalton’s Law of Partial Pressures, and
>> Graham’s Law of Diffusion.( Hint: “…the gas will tend to rise.” )
>
>No need.
No need? Mr. Blackmore claims that HCN is lighter than air and
will drift to the top of the ceiling. Shame! If this were so, he
would find the air in his abode separated into caps of CO2, N2 and
O2, forcing him to place his nose in the appropriate layer in order
to survive.
>You have simply become caught up in the lies of
>your perjuring witnesses again, and I will not be drawn in to
>a non debate over issues which are designed prima facie to
>draw attention away from the glaring lies.
>
Deniers usually react this way when entrapped. Mr. Blackmore
really ought to become acquainted with the gas laws. Hot air
and all!
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 14:27:55 PDT 1996
Article: 76203 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:44:44 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>> [email protected] writes:
>>
>. Evidently you
>> want to imply that all Jews who claim losses to the Holocaust are
>> liars as well, and that my Jewish friends with their stories are
>> somehow trying to pick my pocket.
>
>I do not know what stories your Jewish friends have told you,
>but I have heard some stories from a few of my Jewish friends
>and/or acquaintances which could only ne called mythological,
>to be polite.
Huh? Oh, I see. The mere insistence of Jews still living proves to Mr.
Blackmore that the Holocaust didn’t happen.
> As far as claiming that ALL Jews who claim losses
>are liars-that is a lie in itself as I have never said nor implied anything
>of the sort. It is you who places words in my mouth, because you jump to
>false conclusions.
We jump to the conclusions Mr. blackmore provides us with.
>>
>> And you wonder that I see you for an antisemite.
>
>I do not know how you see me, but if you see me as an anti-
>Semite, you are in error. It must be puzzling to you to see a non
>racist debunking Holocaust myths, but such is the case.
Most antisemites do not see themselves as they are.
>>
> What 3rd or 4th or 5th generation is being punished?
>
>Indeed this is the case. An exhibit recently opened in a
>German town, where the onlooker could stand in front of
>a huge billboard in the middle of the town square. This
>billboard depicted all types of atrocity photos, and at the very
>end of the bulletin board the browsers is left staring into a
>reflected image of him or her self, as if they were
>personally guilty for it.. This isn’t right, especially
>in view of the fact that much which has been written about
>the Holocaust is based on fantasy or fraud.
I wonder if Mr. Blackmore would mind telling us the exact location of
this billboard?
[snip]
> >Yes, if the figures and alleged murders were based upon fraud.
>> >Millions of Germans were murdered after the war as well.
>>
>> Based on authoritative documentation like someone’s alleged after-
>> diner speech at a Rotary Club.
>
>It wasn’t alleged, and the Judge repeated these comments at
>many other public funtions.
>
This doesn’t changed Mr. Power’s words, Mr. Balckmore.
[snip]
>> Explain–specifically–how the figure of four million dead (of
>> whatever ethnic group) at Auschwitz has been involved with
>> “significant amounts of money”. One specific, actual example.
>
>Are you saying it hasn’t been used either to raise money or else elicit sympathy?
Prove to us that it has. This would be a starting point.
>I personally can and do sympathize with those who suffered, but I am
>not in sympathy with those who use the sufferings of others for financial
>gain or as propaganda.
This must be why they are all labeled as liars by you.
>> That’s because you’re a moral imbecile, not to see the difference
>> between an act of war and actions of extermination taken even at the
>> cost of a war effort.
>
>Killing civilians is NOT an act of war. I repeat, killing civilians is
>NOT an act of war. It is barbarism, but that you for showing us
>the nature of your dual standards. What you condemn in one
>you condone in another.
I haven’t seen Mr. Power do what you accuse him of.
>>
>> Honesty is not among your motives.
>
>Thank you for telling me my motives. I must tell you yours sometime.
You haven’t a clue, Mr. Blackmore. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 14:27:56 PDT 1996
Article: 76206 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Apology to Nizkor & Jamie M.
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:48:25 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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<[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>I don’t know if he reads them, but you ought to…Allied
>torture—a matter of policy.
Prove the policy, Mr. Blackmore.
[Bouncing ball–his court.]
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 14:27:56 PDT 1996
Article: 76211 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:29:15 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>> You are fabricating again. You cannot say in one sentence that there
>> was no food and in the next that the inmates were cooking food.
>>
>> > > Your opinions of how Kramer ‘helped’ the inmates are
>> > > interesting, to put the matter lightly.
>> >
>> > They are facts, whether interesting or otherwise.
>>
>> They are lies you created to justify your hero worship.
>> –YFE
>Yale, no one even takes you seriously any more….you
>are the man who advised to give the inmates water from
>cisterns which had rotting corpses and turds floating in
>it……
Yale, it looks like Mr. Blackmore is projecting more than he is
dealing with history or his distortions.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 16:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 76214 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bimko on the Bum
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:34:30 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>> Have you checked any of those assumptions?
>
>Yes. She is a liar.
Can’t you see Mr. Blackmore stomping his little feet and gathering
dust like Pigpen?
>>
>> Now, if she did indeed describe this building inaccurately, does this
>> mean that she never saw it?
>
>She is the one who claimed to have been given a royal
>tour through the “Black Museum”.
>
Mr. Blackmore’s obvious hatred and fevered imagination are
getting the best of him. In no place does the witness claim
to have been given a “grand tour” of the gas chambers. Mr.
Blackmore is challenged to document the exact amount of
time that the witness spent in the gas chamber. He can’t and
he won’t.
> If so, how is it that we know what building
>> she was describing?
>
>Read her testimony.
Sound like Mr. Blackmore really hasn’t an answer to a specific
question. This makes me wonder if Mr. Blackmore has read the testimony
himself.
[snipped dual ad hominems]
>>
>> I will skip your babblings on HCN cylinders since it’s outside my
>> competence. From reading your own words, it looks like it’s outside
>> yours as well.
>
>I didn’t post anything of mine on the cylinders. As I said, the
>info above was supplied via a browser, and what they wrote appears
>to be true.
>
No, he appears to have gotten Mr. Blackmore backed against a wall and
so he resorts to personal attacks and avoids the issues. Typical
methods of the denier.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 16:26:38 PDT 1996
Article: 76226 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rblackmore Lies for the nth time… Re: Let’s Not Be Beastly to the
Germans
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:37:45 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (william c anderson) writes:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> : > [email protected] (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
>>
>> : > (1) why you made a baseless accusation as documented above regarding
>> : > the SWC
>> :
>> : Its my opinion and my belief until you prove otherwise.
>>
>> RBlackmore/JBelling has carnal knowledge of sheep. That is my opinion
>> and my belief until he proves otherwise.
>>
>> Bill
>Stop barking and go back to bed with your mama/
Blackmore has definately been trapped in the corner where most all
deniers end up. Note the documentation offered in Mr. Blackmore’s
retort. Impressive isn’t it?
From [email protected] Tue Oct 22 09:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 76343 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bleeble bleeble… the Toth Zone…
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:12:53 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] (Judith Toth) wrote:
> No, I am not lost, my deleted articles are not lost either [thanks
>to my good bookeeping, which I also strongly suggest for others to do
>in the future!] My brain is also functioning well thank you.
>However, we all realize now that YOUR collander IS functioning
>well… Perhaps for everyone else to see I should repost all my
>conveniently DELETED articles?….
Please don’t you idiot, we have already seen and downloaded them.
Giwer appears to be gone, at least for now. Don’t become another.
From [email protected] Tue Oct 22 09:36:56 PDT 1996
Article: 76344 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another blackmore Peculiarity
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:18:27 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele) writes:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> >Hmmmm. Not at all, the SS themselves executed Goeth, Koch, and
>> >other camp commanders who abused the prisoners under their
>> >charge. Rascher was also executed by the SS.
>
>> The SS trying and then executing their own soldiers for mistreating Jews?
>Why, that
>> would have hardly been necessary if the Nazi goal was to KILL them all. The
>man would
>> have been awarded a Nazi medal instead of being executed!
>
> The blind leading the blind.
>
> Koch was arrested and tried for stealing 200,000 marks (his salary at
>the time was 960 marks/month) after an extended investigation. During his trial
>his was also accused of killing three prisoners — two from Buchenwald and one
>from Lubin — who knew of his thefts and were prepared to testify against him.
>
> Goeth was also arrested in the same probe for theft. The war ended
>before he could be tried. He was captured by U.S. soldiers and turned over to
>the Poles. They tried him and hung him.
>
> Did blackmore know this when he wrote the demonstrably inaccurate
>statement with which Stele so readily agreed? The information is included in
>”Soldiers of Evil” (Ton Segev, 1987). blackmore has previously stated that he
>has read this book.
>
> Draw your own conclusions.
>
Thanks for commenting here that the Poles hung Goeth. I even
understood that from the movie. Reitlinger also makes this clear. Like
a previous incarnate who played games with mauve and ausrotten, this
new incarnation is getting to look the fool also. Soon we’ll be
blessed with another.
From [email protected] Tue Oct 22 09:36:57 PDT 1996
Article: 76346 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Survivor” Abraham Glinowieski-Beaten by the Invisible Man
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:29:00 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>Here is some more “survivor testimony” i.e., more LIES<
>taken from “The Belsen Trial” pages 103, 105:
>
Considering Blackmore’s history, I’m curious about what is on page
104. 🙂
>Glinowieski: Kramer caught me once in Auschwitz,
>about November, 1943, when I was in possession of
>a small piece of bread and a little margarine. Also
>I “collected” (Quotation marks mine-rb) a pair of
>jackboots and for this I received 25 strokes.”
>
The complete text of this testimony is:
From:
_TRIAL OF JOSEF KRAMER AND FORTY-FOUR OTHERS_
[Page 103]
“ABRAHAM GLINOWIESKI, sworn, *examined by* Colonel
Backhouse — I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in
1942,
and sent to Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or
November, 1944, after which I was in one or two other places
and eventually appeared in Belsen about two and a half months before
the camp was liberated.
Look at these people and see whom you can recognize? – I
recognize No. 1, Kramer; No. 9, Grese; No. 11 Hilde (Lobauer);
No. 3, Weingartner; No. 48, Stanislawa (Staroska). Kramer
caught me once in Auschwitz, about November, 1943, when I
was in posession of a small piece of bread and a little
margarine. Also I collected a pair of jackboots and for this I
received 25 strokes.
Mr. Blackmore’s utter lack of humanity is patently displayed. Is he
a believer in this sort of physical punishment? When dutifully
digging around searching for minor inconsistencies in the testimony he
must _surely_ have seen the photographs facing pages 104 and 105.
What can he say about the two facing page 104?
The first picture is titled “One of the victims of typhus
inside a hut.” This picture shows an emaciated woman
aged 30 to 50 with deep drawn, haunted eyes and
a babushka tied around her head. Would Mr. Blackmore
liked for his grandmother to be treated this way? More so
had she been innocent of any crime?
The second picture is entitled “Utter squalor prevails in
the living quarters.” This picture shows two young women
sitting on a pile of rags. One of the women is wrapped
in these rags, the second one is totally emaciated. She
is unclothed down to the waist with her ribs sticking
out, her arms are bereft of flesh, her face is thin and
her eyes show the haunted look of the starving. A third
woman can barely be discerned. Perhaps Mr. Blackmore
would accept that his mother, daughter or wife should be
treated this way.
The photographs facing page 105 are equally dramatic if,
for nothing else, because of the obvious contrast:
The first picture is titled: “Members of the S.S. were made
to clean up the camp and bury the dead.” The picture
shows seven men in soiled but quite serviceable clothes
and which one can assume to be uniforms or components
of uniforms. The men appear to be in good physical
condition and well-fed. It is not possible to confirm how
well-fed they are because all of them are fully clothed with
most of them wearing long sleeves.
The second picture is titled: “S.S. women were also made to
work [presumably by their Britsh captors – comment mine].
These women were the equivalent of the man for brutality.
The picture shows five women (and the half-hidden face of
what appears to be a man), all of whom are fine specimens
of Aryan ‘beauty’. Well-dressed in their uniforms, these
ladies look quite fit and well-fed. Two of these young ladies
appear to have been, if one can employ a local colloquialism,
“hit with an ugly stick.”
When he is quite finished with these pictures, perhaps he can turn
to the photographs facing pages 64, 65, 96, 97, 160, 161,192, 193,
256 and 257 and explain how it is that he can admire the men that
were capable of such grotesque cruelty and inhumanity.
Glinowieski’s testimony continues:
[Page 104]
“What do you know about Weitgartner? – I worked with my
brother in the F.K.L. as a carpenter for two years.As there
was a great requirement for food my brother received 12
roubles and a signet ring, for which he obtained 240
cigarettes.
He was taking these cigarettes to a woman who, because he
was in the women’s block which was not permitted,
Weingartner\
arrived, together with the Blockfuhrer. Weingartner searched
my
brother, found the cigarettes, roubles and signet ring and,
after
the Blockfuhrer had left the room, gave my brother 75 strokes.
He then kicked my brother out of the room and he could hardly
stand. I was waiting some distance away. Together with a
friend we helped him along to the block where he lived and tried to
stand him against the wall.He could not stand and had to sit
down. He told me that he was bent over a chair, a knee was applied to
his neck to keep his head down, and he was beaten. He could
not stand during roll-call so we took him to the hospital, to which I
later went and spoke to the doctor, offering the latter a
reward for looking after my brother when he got better. I was not
allowed to se my brother. Later on he died. (At this point the witness
broke down.)”
>Cross examined by Major Winwood, pages 105, 106:
>
>Winwood: You mentioned an incident in October
>or November, 1943, when you received 25 strokes
>from Kramer at Auschwitz. Do you not agree that
>we still had to wait a matter of five months after this
>date before Kramer ever came to Auschwitz?
>
>A: No, it is not true.
>
>Q: In the statement you made to a British officer at Belsen,
>why did you not mention this very painful incident?
>
>A: Because only photographs of the S.S. men were
>shown to me and I was asked to say whether I could
>not accuse any of them?”
>
>End of Quotes.
>
>Ha! Read it for yourselves. Another liar. By the way,
>I referred to the Auschwitz Chronicle regarding the months
>and years of Kramer’s service at Auschwitz. the result?:
>
>”In 1944 he returned to Auschwitz as Commander of
>Birkenau but was transferred in November of that year
>to Bergen-Belsen in the same function.” Page 816.
>
>Another day, another liar.
>
>”If you can’t believe the messengers, how can you
>believe the message?”
It is quite possible that the witness was mistaken about the date.
Let us analyse the witnesses words:
[Page 107]
“[…] As a result of typhus do you find difficulty in
remembering what you have said in the statement? – I remember
everything but not the details.”
Another example where the principle of “convergence of evidence” can
be applied.
Furthermore:
Those incarcerated in Nazi prisons, and especially concentration
camps, did not have the advantage of a newspaper or radio to know what
day it was. More to the point is the fact that there are literally
dozens of testimonies from other witnesses in this camp that confirmed
the beatings. Kramer, on pages 159 and 176 denies the beatings, but
allows, on page 177 that they may have taken place in his absence.
Of equal importance in the interpretation of this testimony is the
fact that the witness and Kramer _did_ coincide in Auschwitz for
a considerable period.
Even more to the point, and addressing an issue that Mr. Blackmore
has cleverly evaded in this depressing little interchange, are the
admissions by Kremer, Hoessler, Kleim and others that prisoners
under their care were sent to the gas chambers and exterminated. In
the final analysis, this is the part of the testimony that deniers
dread. Not the accusations by witnesses or the testimonies and
cross-examinations, but the free admission by Mr. Blackmore’s heroes
that they contributed to the death of innocent victims.
Mr. Blackmore and his cohorts are attempting to empty a sea of
truth with their thimble of lies.
This looks like the sloppy work done by a previous contributor to this
conference. He was careless with his sources.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 23 07:44:08 PDT 1996
Article: 76541 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Blackmore is stomping his tiny feet
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:22:06 GMT
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I found this on DejaNews rather than my server so I thought it best to
respond.
>Subject: Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo
Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by
calling them names. Does this show that Mr. Blackmore is a
misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?
>> If I consider your struggle here, I have no need to come back with a
>> thing.
>
>Don’t bother. You’d be wasting everyone’s time.
>You and your little liar Bimbo can go peddle your
>lies elsewhere as they have been completely exposed.
Mr. Blackmore once again demonstrates his lack of scholarity and
civility. Such crude rhetoric can only emanate from a person
totally immersed in his hatred. He has exposed nothing. He refuses to
understand the principle of convergence of evidence. He defends his
badly phrased statements, most of which are taken out of context.
He ignores documentation by claiming that original source documents
are forged. In brief, he relies on typical denier tactics.
>Subject: Re: Dr. Leo Lies like a Rug
>From: [email protected]
>
>
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>rblackmore writes:
>
>No. You are deluded, and You are deluding people. These
>camps had NO gas chambers.
Mr. Blackmore can yell “NO” until he is blue in the face, but the
sentient reader of these lines will not ignore the evidence:
He has been asked to explain what:
>>
>> [Page 222 — Reference 1]
>>
>> “Langsshnitt durch, eine Entlausungkammer mit
>> Degesch-Kreislanufanordnung”
>>
>> signifies and why this unusual device is installed several times
>> in another section of the crematorium. Mr. Blackmore can’t
>> and won’t explain this.
>
>Yes. I will. Sections of Dachau were rebuilt AFTER the war.
Mr. Blackmore will not get off that easily on this point. He will
have to prove that the fumigation chambers on the Southern side of
the Dachau crematorium were built after the war. He cannot do this
because he has lied. He will also have to explain how the devices
mentioned above (which were built long before the war ended)
found themselves into the peculiar place that they are now
located.
>Also, you have claimed that prisoners were indeed gassed in
>these alleged gas chambers at Dachau and that the autopsy and
>toxicological reports are available. yet, for months now you have
>never produced them. The browsers are aware of that fact also.
The “browsers,” as Mr. Blackmore refers to the sentient readers that
follow this thread, will know that a debate among serious historians
continues to this day regarding the use of the Dachau gas chamber.
This does not obscure the fact that the gas chamber exists to this
date and that photographs and motion pictures taken when the camp fell
in 1945 show this chamber much the same as it is now.
>>
>> 2) Natzweiler was so obviously used as a gas chamber that there
>> is a document written by the Nazis:
>
>Confirm this document is authentic. where did it come from, who found
>it, was it signed, of so, by whom, and where is the wirtten response to
>the inquiry or statement? Your “documents” are NOT documents until
>proven so beyond the shadow of a doubt.
This sort of statement is expected from deniers. When trapped by
documentary evidence they immediately claim that the documents
are false. Not for Mr. Blackmore’s satisfaction, because he is quite
simply beyond redemption, but because the documents exist, we will
refer sentient readers of this thread to peruse the following:
From:
_NAZI MASS MURDER_
Eugen Kogon et al. Editors
c. 1993, Yale University Press
[Pages 199-200]
(Statement presented by SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Josef Kramer
presented in July 1945 to the investigating judge at the
Strasbourg Trial)
“In the month of August 1943, I received an order from
the camp at Oranienburg, or rather from the SS Supreme
Headquarters in Berlin . . . <sic> to take approximately 80
prisoners from Auschwitz. In the letter accompanying the
order it was specified that I should immediately get in touch
with Professor Hirt of the Faculty of Medicine in Strasbourg.
When I went to the Strasbourg Institute of Anatomy where
Hirt was working, he told me that he had been informed of a
convoy of Auschwitz prisoners bound for Struthof. He made it
clear to me that these people would be killed by gas in the
Struthof gas chamber, and that their corpses would be taken to the
Institute of Anatomy and put at his disposal.
At the end of this conversation, he gave me a flask
containing about a quarter of a liter of salts, which I bvelieve to
have been hydrocyanic salts. The professor indicated to me the
approximate dose I should use to asphyxiate personally the prisoners
coming from Auschwitz whom I have just mentioned.
[…] I illuminated the chamber’s interior by means of a
switch located near the funnel, and I observed what was happening in
the chamber through the outside peephole. I noted that the women
continued to breathe for about half a minute and then fell to
the ground. […]
[…] A few days later, in the same way, I again brought a
number of women to the gas chamber, and they were asphyxiated by the
same procedure. A few more days after that, about fifty or
fifty-five men were taken on two or three occasions to the gas
chambers on my orders , and were killed there by means of the same
salts that Hirt had given me.” [FN79]
FN79: “See n. 76, exhibit 1806/V/I. See also Nuremb. Doc.
807-NO, fols. 120ff. […] {See also} …exhibits 085-NO, 087-NO,
088-NO, 089-NO, 091-NO…[…] Other SS members testified to the
gassings (the head of the work allocation office in Natzweiler,
Nitsche, ibid. file no. 4, bundle 12, exhibit 2277) […]
Will Mr. Blackmore post evidence that the testimony and the documents
are false? No, he won’t, because he has lied.
>>
>> [page 199 — Reference 2]
>>
>> “On 26 September 1943 the construction department
>> of the Natzweiler camp, managed by the Waffen SS and
>> police, sent the following bil
>[…] even if this particular chamber was a lethal one, which
>you need to prove-there is nothing illegal in the State using this form
>of execution for those condemned to death. we use gas chambers in
>America for the same purpose. They are called “legal executions”.
AHA! The denier’s typical caveat. The victims were not killed by gas
but if they were killed by gas it was a legal execution! Mr.
Blackmore has reached unsuspected heights of dissimulation. The
truth, for concerned and sentient readers, is that these innocent
victims were selected in Auschwitz for a collection of skeletons that
Dr. Hirt had been authorized to produce. For the more curious and
un-sqeamish, _The Struthof Album_ [New York: Beate Klarsfeld
Foundation, 1985] will supplement, with both photographic and
documentary evidence, that the sad events in Struthof did,
unfortunately, ocurr.
>Aside from that, if you are referring to the so-called Jewish-Bolshevist
>Communist-allegation,
Mr. Blackmore is reminded of the footnote on page 197 regarding the
origins of the victims. There is, of course, nothing wrong in Mr.
Blackmore’s eyes, with killing young Jewish women from Greece.
> I think it rather foolish to construct a gas chamber
>for only 80 odd people, when they could have simply been given
>a phenol shot. Sounds like propaganda to me. And I have read
>about the construction of this alleged “gas chamber”. If what I
>read is indeed true then I denounce the accusation most emphatically.
What Mr. Blackmore “thinks” lacks relevance. Unless he has proof
to the contrary, his statements are worthless.
Mr. Blackmore “denounces” and denies but offers no proof whatsoever
to substantiate his odious allegations. His “sounds like propaganda to
me” statement is nothing more than an admission that he cannot face
the truth. More is the pity.
>>
>> To which we add the testimony of Josef Kramer:
>
>Yes. kramer was brutalized by his captors. Witches also testified
>to making potions out of the eyes of newts and boiled down baby fat.
>His testimony does you no good.
It is easy to malign Kramer’s captors with a slanderous statement. It
is quite something else to prove that Kramer was brutalized. The
testimony that Kramer presented was good enough to hang him.
Furthermore, Kramer was not the only perpetrator that admitted to
the gas chambers. Mr. Blackmore ought to read his _Belsen Trial_
testimonies and interrogatories rather more closely. How many
people apart from Kramer saw the gas chambers according to the
testimony in the book? Curious minds want to know.
>And where are these orders?
Mr. Blackmore is kindly referred to [FN79] above.
>>
>> 3) To end this small exercise in unmasking Mr. Blackmore’s deceit,
>> we will go to Neuengamme.
>
>On the contrary, it is not my “deceit” which is unmasked, but your
>low level of common sense, along with no proof to back up your
>claims.
Good grief! Mr. Blackmore offers no evidence whatsoever to back up
his odious insinuations, but accuses those who post documented proof
of not doing so. He is is obviously carrying out an exercise in
Kafkian logic.
>>
>> [Page 193 — Reference 2]
>>
>> “It has been proved that two gassing operations took place
>> at the Neuengamme camp near Hamburg
>
>Who proved this? When? Where? How? Documentation?
Does one hear the stamping of tiny feet once again? Mr. Blackmore
rattles off one question after another, but offers no proof to the
contrary. Even the more ‘rational’ deniers do better than that. For
those readers who are more in control of their faculties, a visit to
[FN69, page 193] of _Nazi Mass Murder_ is suggested.
>
> Soviet prisoners of war from Fallingbostel POW camp in the
>> Luneberg Heath were brought to Neuengamme, and were
>> killed as soon as they arrived.
>Proof?
More anguished, whimpering demands for “proof.” It is apparent
that Mr. Blackmore is incapable of looking up references without
being led by the hand: Once again, gently, FN69, page 193, of
_Nazi Mass Murder_.
>>
>> “In Neuengamme there were no gas chambers, properly speaking.
>> What was known as the ‘bunker’ was used:
>
>So, they were “gassed” in a bunker?
One must be careful when Mr. Blackmore truncates a posted statement.
This originally read:
[*deleted text*]
>> “In Neuengamme there were no gas chambers, properly speaking.
>> What was known as the ‘bunker’ was used: *it served as the camp
>> prison, and it was here that executions usually took place*.[…]”
The statement is quite clear. The prisoners were gassed in the camp
prison which was called “the bunker.” Can Mr. Blackmore prove
otherwise?
>. It was made gastight and new doors installed, along with
>> a system of heating pipes that served for distributing the gas
>> and
>> for ventilation. […]”
>
>And you have these orders for construction, which prove this
>was a facility to kill human beings?
Those who doubt the previous statements are invited to visit [FN70]
on page 271 of _Nazi Mass Murder_.
>>
>> Reference 1:
>>
>> _AUSCHWITZ: 1270 to the Present_
>>
>Have it. Rehashes the SOS.
Mr. Blackmore does not appear to have this book in spite of his
protestations. If he had the book he could easily explain what:
“Langsshnitt durch, eine Entlausungkammer mit
Degesch-Kreislanufanordnung”
signifies and why it is relevant to Dachau. He can’t, he won’t, and
the world is laughing at him.
>>
>> Reference 2:
>>
>> _NAZI MASS MURDER_
>> Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein & Adalbert Ruckerl, Editors
>>
>Have it and you criticized when I quoted from it
>regarding Goering and the “Final Solution”, but now you run into
>their arms to support your unsupportable contentions.
Mr. Blackmore must surely be jesting. Who precisely does he
accuse of running into the arms of the editors of the book? The
subject at hand deals with the gas chambers and the quality of the
testimony in the _Belsen Trial._ Is Mr. Blackmore dragging yet
another Red-Herring [TM] across the path of civilized discourse?
>> perhaps he could count the number of times that one of the defendants
>> admits to visiting, seeing, using, or building gas chambers.
>
>Yes, as credible as the testimony of witches in Montague Sommers
>books.
Witches? Who is talking about witches? Mr. Blackmore tries to get me
to discuss one of my favorite subjects in the hope that I will be
deflected, but this is a discussion about the
gas chambers. Mr. Blackmore cannot answer why many, many
perpetrators, witnesses, victims, and those who built gas chambers
have testified as to their existence. Does he imply that everyone was
tortured? Does he imply that millions of documents have been
falsified? If so, he must present proof of a different sort than just
a simple snit-fit. By not posting his evidence he admits to acts of
obfuscation and deceit.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 23 10:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 76564 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bimko on the Bum
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:05:34 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Here are a few comments about the testimony of Ms. Bimko sent to me by
>>>a “browser”:
>>
>>Note: The witness does talk about “…two huge metal containers
>>containing gas.” She claims to have seen these and been told
>>by an S.S. man that the containers and some tubes leading
>>from them contained gas. I believe that the S.S. man was
>>pulling her leg but I will have to do some work on this.
>
> We can wait for the results of the “work”, but in the mean time
>we can take a look at Mr.Curtis’ next remark.
>
>>Let us not lose sight of the fact that the main perpetrators of
>>the gassings have admitted using these gas chambers. Blackmore
>>and his ilk are attempting to lay red herrings across the road
>>in the hope that we (and the audience) will be distracted by
>
>=================================================================
>>some minor inconsistencies in the testimony of witnesses who
>>were not only frightened and hungry, but who only had a
>>glimpse of the gassing facilities. Readers should be warned
>>about this.
>
> “Minor inconsistancies”. The witness said she say the metal
>containers, but there weren’t any.
>
She says that she saw them. What they really were was the issue she
said she was sure about, Mr. Moran.
> The rest of Mr.Curtis’ 100+ lines deleted.
I think you should considering your reading comprehension needs work.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 23 10:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 76565 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports – OSR USSR #45
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:08:18 GMT
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <53s17r$[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Alexander Baron) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] “<[email protected]>
>> You are incorrect. Nysli was known to other physicians
>> at Auschwitz. Further he gave a deposition in 1945.
>> Who is this Nysli character? Where is his birth certificate?
>>
>> Surely someone who considers the difference bewtween “mauve”
>> and “blue” in a translated version of a book to be primary
>> evidence of fraudulence can distinguish between the personage
>> of one Dr Nyiszli and some Nysli character.
>
>I would be interested in any information on this deposition Nyiszli gave,
>like where can I find a citation, and what happened to him after the war.
>He did exist (I’ve found proof) but this apparently so important witness
>literally disappeared into thin air.
>
He’s dead.
You’d better inform Mr. Blackmore that you found proof that this
individual did exist.
Oh, I will. posted and emailed to Mr. Blackmore.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 23 13:22:33 PDT 1996
Article: 76586 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:20:53 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <Dzn91[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> Jews like Keren will ALWAYS believe
>in the Holocaust. Questions of “likelihood” and “illogicality” mean nothing to Keren.
>The fact that for the “Holocaust” to be true would require the most nonsensical German
>contortions — it all means NOTHING.
>
Dr. Keren is not the only one here who believes in the well documented
fact of the historical Holocaust.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 23 13:22:34 PDT 1996
Article: 76591 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:23:37 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <karlpov.845689280@access2> <[email protected]>
<54f9lq$l2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>[email protected] (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>>>
>>>The SS trying and then executing their own soldiers for mistreating Jews?
>
>>They were executed for stealing from the Reich, Kurt. Drink some
>>coffee and wake up!
>
>Nope! There existed certain SS officers who were executed SOLEY on the basis
of
>mistreating Jewish inmates alone.
Which one’s were these and what was the “mistreatment” would be one
question to ask Mr. Stele. Of course, then we would expect a well
substantiated answer from, Mr. Stele. But I doubt that is what we will
get as a response.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 11:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 76711 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:02:24 GMT
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Chuck Ferree <[email protected]> wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>The facts are the Holocaust is true, it did happen, and if people like
>this turkey kurt want it all to be logical and make sense, he needs to
>try and learn more about history. The Germans behaved in very stupid
>ways, most of the time. Some of their logistical decisions make little
>sense at all. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t do the Holocaust.
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>> [email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>>
>> > Jews like Keren will ALWAYS believe
>> >in the Holocaust. Questions of “likelihood” and “illogicality”
mean nothing to Keren.
>
>What do questions of “likelihood” and illogically” mean to our
>naziwannabe friend lil kurt.
>
>If one expects the Holocaust to make sense, one would be better off
>reading Alice In the Looking Glass, it’s more logical than the Nazi
>decisions to “rid Europe of Jews.”
Mr. Stele should also realise that war doesn’t make much sense either
if one considers the end result where humanity is concerned.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 11:43:03 PDT 1996
Article: 76714 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:27:50 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Gord McFee) writes:
>> In message <53vpqs$ba[email protected]> – [email protected] Oct 1996
>> :>>
>> :>> :>It is not a lie. The monuments (plural) stated that
>> :>> :>4 million human beings perished at Auschwitz.
>. And yet, you won’t even admit your error, let alone apologize for your
>> :>> blatant misstatement of the truth.
>
>No, Gordon, I won’t apologize for this, any more than you are
>willing to apologize for the slander of repeating that 6 million
>Jews were murdered by the Germans.
Eichmann said a simular thing during his interrogation. I don’t think
that Mr. McFee has anything at all to be apologitic for.
>> :>>
>> :>> And you claim to yearn for serious debate. };->
>
>Do you?
>
> It was more than an error, Mr. “Blackmore”. It was a multiple error.
>
>Mr. McFee, stop playing simple little word games.
Mr. Blackmore whants to suggest that another is playing word games!
How droll. Here’s a fellow with several names and poor
reading/research skills. Mr. Blackmore played word games with the 4
million Jews, oops, persons, and has yet to really admit his mistake
in an honest manner
.
> Even if it didn’t say
>4 million JEWS, whom do you think they were referring to?
The fact is that they didn’t say 4 million Jews. Because Mr. Blackmore
doesn’t understand history he has to ask Mr. McFee to explain it for
him! Truely incredible.
> If you
>examine the book from the Polish Commission which I quoted for Mr.
>Edeikin, you would see that they give explicit totals for the alleged
>dead at Auschwitz, and the non-Jews are an infinitesimally small
>fraction of the alleged Jewsih dead.
I have to apologize for missing this. It was probably in another
thread or it could be the fact that I tend to ignore Mr. Blackmore’s
useless posts to Yale. They have mostly been one-liners after all.
Maybe Mr. Blackmore would be so kind as to present this again with the
proper citations so that context may be verified?
> So, your nit-picking is really
>serving no beneficial purpose. they LIED and the LIED BIG.
Mr. Blackmore is stomping his little feet again.
>Such methods will never convince me or other skeptics of the truth of the
>Holocaust especially when people like you continue to defend
>it, even after its manifest forgeries are exposed.
>
I think it is a case of anyone, and not just Mr. McFee, who would take
umbridge with your distortions and try to point folks to the actual
reality of the history of the horrible event.
>> This is the classic denier approach. Try to find an error in any part of the
>> volumes of evidence on the Holocaust and then claim that the whole affair is
>> untrue. Doesn’t work sir.
>
>I have been doing that steadily and my work is far from done.
>And it is working. The hysteria voiced every day in the media
>is proof that the colossus is on its last legs. First comes ridicule,
>then persecution, and finally, acceptance of an obvious fact.
>. We are in phase two.
Mr. Blackmore must be on the toilet.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 11:43:04 PDT 1996
Article: 76715 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:40:49 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Gord McFee) writes:
>> I’m sure he feels fine, but you and your team must feel pretty stupid right
>> now. You have implied that the Allies tortured Hoess and _forced_ him to
>> write memoirs in which he
>>
>> – talked about them having tortured him
>> – gave a _lower_ figure for people killed in Auschwitz than the Russians had
>> given
>>
>> You guys are desperate.
>> Gord McFee
>> I’ll write no line before its time
>Don’t feel so smug, because at this point the figures are irrelevant.
>The point is torture was used and Hoess is simply a liar,
This is despite the fact that Mr. blackmore has failed to provide a
correlation with the alleged “torture” and the testimony given at
Nuremberg and in Poland.
>who
>ended up not giving a damn what he wrote, whether it confirmed
>his earlier statements or didn’t.
This is said despite the correlation between his testimony and what he
wrote.
> His whole testimony isn’t worth a
>plug nickel. Get it?
Mr. blackmore is stomping his little feet again.
> It is you who should be feeling ridiculous, as
>your advocates have always snipped and quoted from Hoess
>whenever it supported their twisted and deranged interpretation
>of the Holocaust. You and your crowd are losing the argument
>day by day, and the sad thing is, you don’t even seem to notice.
>Just like the lemmings…….
Seems like Mr. Blackmore is happy to declare victory despite his
failure to connect what he presents with any kind of historical fact.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 11:43:05 PDT 1996
Article: 76723 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:32:10 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <32548D[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]><[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>
>>:>They have no further evidence.
>
>>Bullshit. Former SS admitted that a Sonderaktion was a codeword for killing.
>>Eichmann admitted it; I would assume he would know. Franz Suchomel admitted
>>it–he was an SS guard.
>
>Oh yeah, Franz Suchomel; gave another “come-lately” interview on some Jewish
documentary.
>He said special action meant “gassing.”
Eichmann explained this also in much the same way. How many other
Nazis understood this term to mean killing? Höss also.
> And other SS guards said the word didn’t mean
>gassing.
Mr. Stele will present this testimony for us I am sure.
> Once again, another inconclusive contradiction. Once again, no physical
>evidence to resolve it. That speaks volumes.
>
No contradiction has been presented by Mr. Stele.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 11:43:06 PDT 1996
Article: 76726 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Der Stuermer”-Hitler’s Favorite Mag?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:35:26 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> >2. I would say that the Nazis treatment of the Jewish
>> >people was similar to America’s treatment of Native Americans.
>> Oh, please, tell me about this history. Let’s start at the very
>> beginning. BTW, the beginning is the 16th century coast.
>Later. BTW, I also, am an authority on this subject. I would
>suggest that you start a new discussion group. However, I doubt
>whether we will have differing opinions on this particular subject.
>
What is Mr. Blackmore (not his real name) not an authority on? Mr.
Blackmore is fluent in German, an expert researcher, an authority on
the Holocaust and now and authority on Native American History. Mr.
Blackmore seems to be that rare individual who knows everythin, but in
the end is shown to know nothing. Another attempt at comparison bites
the dust.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 13:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 76741 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Survivor” Abraham Glinowieski-Beaten by the Invisible Man
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:55:33 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >Here is some more “survivor testimony” i.e., more LIES<
>> >taken from “The Belsen Trial” pages 103, 105:
>> >
> Look at these people and see whom you can recognize? – I
>> etc Also I collected a pair of jackboots and for this I
>> received 25 strokes.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore’s utter lack of humanity is patently displayed. Is he
>> a believer in this sort of physical punishment?
>
>Mr. G was punished for stealing.
Mr. Blackmore needs to explain how he comes to this assumption.
> Who knows what else he did…steal
>food perhaps from other hungry inmates.
Mr. Blackmore is now attempting to his own additions to the printed
testimony.
> As you know these types of
>offenses were rather common in KZ’s.
If anyone considers the conditions the inmates were forced to live
with, then getting something from others in order to survive is more
than a possibility. Of course this causes the audience to consider if
it is moral to steal a crumb from those who have in order to survive.
_Les Miserables_ presents just such a quandary. This is a whole other
issue and goes to human psychology within concentration camps in Nazi
Germany or even in the Soviet Union for that matter.
> Also, I do not believe in corporal
>punishment. Now, do you approve of the way Germans were interrogated
>and mistreated by the allies?
>
Mr. Blackmore is now shifting the subject to another that is not a
part of the discussion concerning the treatment of human beings placed
in camps for no other reason than that they were Polish, Jewish,
Russian, or Germans who disagreed with an authoritarian government.
> The first picture is titled “One of the victims of typhus
>> inside a hut.”
>
>What has this to do with the credibility of Mr. G?
Mr. Blackmore seems to think that by calling this man a liar that the
mere appliance of Mr. Blackmores wishes makes him so.
> Also, typhus
>was there after the german administration surrendered. More
>”dirty dancing”.
It is pretty clear that the English thought that the dirty dance was
performed by the Germans. Mr. Blackmore seems to think that a
situation of massive disease caused mostly by unsanitary conditions
can be cleared up in moments.
>
> This picture shows an emaciated woman
>> aged 30 to 50 with deep drawn, haunted eyes and
>> a babushka tied around her head. Would Mr. Blackmore
>> liked for his grandmother to be treated this way?
>
>Perhaps she was…..
Mr. Blackmore’s grandmother is probably pretty disappointed in his
efforts to justify these particular treatments of innocent human
beings in order to justify his Nazi heros.
>
> More so
>> had she been innocent of any crime?
>
>My grandmother never committed any crimes.
Neither did the majority of the camp inmates. Mr. Blackmore seems to
ahve forgotten that fact.
> Also, these are
>obvious ploys desgined to elicit an emotional response in the
>reader, rather than deal with the lies of Mr. G.
Oh my! We are dealing with the distortions of Mr. B. at the moment who
has failed to show that Mr.Glinowieski lied.
>>
>> The second picture is entitled “Utter squalor prevails in
>> the living quarters.”
>
>This is an admitted fact. It was also testified to at the Belsen
>Trial that many of the inmates themselves were responsible
>for much of the filth and squalor prevailing in the camp.
Mr. Blackmore seems to think that these inmates had complete control
over their situations. However, he is free to present such testimony
for us all to read _in contxt_.
>
>
> Perhaps Mr. Blackmore
>> would accept that his mother, daughter or wife should be
>> treated this way.
>
>More attempts to elicit emotional responses. Deal with Mr. G.
I guess it is acceptable to Mr. Balckmore that his immediate family be
treated in the fashions we have been discussing.
>>
>> The photographs facing page 105 are equally dramatic if,
>> for nothing else, because of the obvious contrast:
>
>The men appear to be in good physical
>> condition and well-fed
>
>And? They weren’t ill with typhus or enteritis or dysentery.
We have to note what Mr. Blackmore has SNIPPED. The persons under
discussion here are male S.S. guards who had clean water and food.
> If
>they were, they would resemble the inmates who became ill, and
>who were recently shipped to Belsen from other camps, where they
>brought the illness with them and carried it into the camp.
Maybe they should not have been shipped to any camps at all!
>>
>> The second picture is titled: “S.S. women were also made to
>> work [presumably by their Britsh captors – comment mine].
>> These women were the equivalent of the man for brutality.
>
>Let’s discuss it. perhaps some of them were cruel. perhaps some of
>the inmates were cruel as well. there were many common criminals
>in these camps.
This isn’t an historical discussion but rather total speculation on
Mr. Blackmore’s part. We do not need to “perhaps” very much any longer
if we use the data available.
>
>> The picture shows five women (and the half-hidden face of
>> what appears to be a man), all of whom are fine specimens
>> of Aryan ‘beauty’.
>
>Is this supposed to be an ethnic slur?
>
>Well-dressed in their uniforms, these
>> ladies look quite fit and well-fed.
>
>Perhaps you would prefer to see them starving? Would you want that for
>your mother or sister?
Mr. Blackmore seems to think the he is being clever. If there were a
truly disasterous situation, then all would be in pretty poor shape.
It is pretty clear who was in the worst shape and that who is the
inmates.
>
> Two of these young ladies
>> appear to have been, if one can employ a local colloquialism,
>> “hit with an ugly stick.”
>
>So it is an ethnic slur after all. Mike’s old double standard.
Mr. Blackmore is now trying to project his problems onto me. I do not
share Mr. Blackmore’s problems. Neither is he addressing very many of
the issues brought out in my post.
>>
>> When he is quite finished with these pictures, perhaps he can turn
>> to the photographs
>
>I have seen them all and I find it abhorrent, but these terrible
>conditions are not the fault of Kramer or his staff. The fault lies
>with higher authorities as well as in the catastrophic conditions
>produced by the war and allied bombing in germany.
Reminds one of Eichmann who always had another to blame other than
himself. Actually, it reminds me of most politicians today who always
blame the other guy for their failures. Note also Mr. Blackmore’s
efforts to deflect the argument away from the subject at hand by
referring to Allied bombing.
>>
>> Glinowieski’s testimony continues:
>
>Finally!
>>
>> [Page 104]
>>
>> “What do you know about Weitgartner? – I worked with my
>>
> I was not
>> allowed to se my brother. Later on he died. (At this point the witness
>> broke down.)”
>
>If this is true,
Evidence for it not being true will be provided by Mr. Blackmore.
> then Weingartner should have been punished appropriately,
>but we still need to hear his version of this incident. Also, Mr. G. has
>already been demonstrated to be a thief and a fabricator, so I expect
>there was more to this than meets the eye.
Mr. Blackmore will make up for us what doesn’t immediately meet the
eye.
>> >Cross examined by Major Winwood, pages 105, 106:
>> >
>> >Winwood: You mentioned an incident in October
>> >or November, 1943,
>
>> >A: No, it is not true.
>
>Well, it is true. He lied and was caught lying.
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet.
>> >
>> >Q: In the statement you made to a British officer at Belsen,
>> >why did you not mention this very painful incident?
>> >
>> >A: Because only photographs of the S.S. men were
>> >shown to me and I was asked to say whether I could
>> >not accuse any of them?”
>> >
>> >End of Quotes.
>> >
>> >Ha! Read it for yourselves. Another liar.
>snip
>> >
>> >”If you can’t believe the messengers, how can you
>> >believe the message?”
>>
>> It is quite possible that the witness was mistaken about the date.
>> Let us analyse the witnesses words:
>
>He stated quite emphatically that he remembered this incident. he
>was a liar attempting to incriminate Kramer for something he could
>not possibly have done.
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet in the effort to whitewash his
Nazi hero.
>> [Page 107]
>>
>> “[…] As a result of typhus do you find difficulty in
>> remembering what you have said in the statement? – I remember
>> everything but not the details.”
>
>He remembered the details of his lie distinctly.
>>
> fact that the witness and Kramer _did_ coincide in Auschwitz for
>> a considerable period.
>
>Dirty dancing. Mr. G. lied and you don’t have the integrity to admit it.
Mr. Blackmore stamps his little feet and attacks my character. Quite
an argument by one so knowledgable in everything.
> the
>> admissions by Kremer, Hoessler, Kleim and others that prisoners
>> under their care were sent to the gas chambers and exterminated. In
>> the final analysis, this is the part of the testimony that deniers
>> dread.
>
>In his first statement kramer denied that there ever were gas chambers.
Of course he did. Most criminals deny the obvious.
>You choose to believe the second statements after he had been in
>”custody” for a while…..either way, by giving two completely differing
>statements, we must disregard them both, otherwise his first statement
>is more credible.
>
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet. On thing Mr. Blackmore does have
going for him are his unsubstantiated opinions.
> Not the accusations by witnesses or the testimonies and
>> cross-examinations, but the free admission by Mr. Blackmore’s heroes
>> that they contributed to the death of innocent victims.
>
>Heroes?
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose or who has
sacrificed his or who life. Hero.
>> Mr. Blackmore and his cohorts are attempting to empty a sea of
>> truth with their thimble of
>>
>> This looks like the sloppy work done by a previous contributor to this
>> conference. He was careless with his sources.
>
>You apparently are careless with the truth.
Mr. Blackmore has been shown to be careless with his sources, quotes,
and research methods. One wonders if Mr. Blackmore knows what
historical truth is.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 24 13:30:54 PDT 1996
Article: 76742 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just Moshe or is it just bloated besotted trolling toad??
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:49:04 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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<325f6df8.175919721@news>
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[email protected] (pgroff) wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 08:47:17 GMT, [email protected] (Just Moshe)
>wrote:
>
>Bloated besotted trolling toad DELETED.
>
Me too, Mr. Groff. <yawn)
Killfiled that sucker!
From [email protected] Fri Oct 25 09:00:31 PDT 1996
Article: 76910 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:52:55 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>Kurt Stele wrote on18 Oct 1996
>
>
>The Exterminationists are rather like the defenders of
>the Ptolmeic system in 1500 A.D. Most of them firmly
>believe in their own position and they cannot conceive of
>anyone honestly holding a contrary view.
>
Actually, there is nothing wrong with a contrary view. It is helpful
if the view was more than a view. What most historians do is present a
viewpoint and then they back it up with documentation( letters,
testimony, diaries, business documents, militiary documents, etc).
Most “revisionists” tend to think that the viewpoint alone is
sufficient or they distort available documentation in order to acieve
an erroneous viewpoint.
>This is also my explaination of how Exterminationists
>disregard the clear evidence that I find so convincing.
Your evidence is never clear or convincing, Mr. Ceacca. You have made
claims about various issues and one being that you could put rubble
back together. I asked you to present you pictures and drawing to the
group and what have you done? Nothing. Yes, the work of true
“historical”revisionism is hard work and someone has to do it. It
appears that you haven’t the convictions or the data to go along with
your viewpoint. This applies immediately to your unsubstantiated
claims below.
> In reading Pressac’s Technique… I am impressed time
>and time again how Mr. Pressac ignores (what seems to me)
>powerful evidence that there could NOT have been gas
>chambers at Leichenkeller 1 of the Cremas; solid physical
>evidence such as the lack of vent holes or the impossiblity
>that “porous pillars” were attached to the roof or floor.
>Pressac seems more than content with what he calls
>”criminal traces”, usually little “slips” in the masses
>of documents that the Germans left. Ask Pressac
>to look at the actual ruins, Une poule qui a trouve’ un
>couteau!
>
>Best Revisionist Regards
From [email protected] Fri Oct 25 09:00:32 PDT 1996
Article: 76932 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MR. Blackmore Stomps his LITTLE feet was Mike Curtis’s “Gas Chambers”
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:58:36 GMT
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[email protected] wrote:
posted and emailed
It’s hard to tell what I wrote so I’ll help folks out if I can.
Mike is the >>
>This is my response to Mike Cutris, re:, the following:
>
> Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo
>
>> Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by calling
them names. Does this show that Mr.
>>Blackmore is a misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?
>
>Did that get your attention? Good, it was meant to. Am I a misogynist?
Or is there an underlying hatred, Mr. Blackmore? This discussion is
not really to get attention. (Well, maybe this is what you seek. It’s
what Matt Giwer and Kurt Stele seek. I thought you were more down to
earth than those creatures of wasted time.)
>No, as a matter of fact, I’m a lover, not a fighter. My only criticism of
>Ms. Bimko is that she lied under oath.
Which Mr. Blackmore have failed to provide proof of. That must be why
Mr. Blackmore left the original thread dangling. This was the habit of
a past member who was the champion of the dangling thread. He lose the
argument and then run off to another thread just like nothing really
occurred.
>Is there an underlying hatred? Only of the lies some people tell under
>oath, which may have led to the death sentence for people who did
>not deserve it, as well as propagating the horrific lie that 4 million
>Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz.
>
This seems to be a distortion that Mr. Blackmore hopes to hoist on
this group since Mr. Blackmore chooses to continually repeat it. The
trouble is that no one believes Mr. Blackmore.
>> Mr. Blackmore once again demonstrates his lack of scholarity and civility.
>
>And if I were to count how many times I have been insulted by you
>and your colleagues, and post it, you would stand self- convicted of
>being a hypocrite.
>
>> Such crude rhetoric can only emanate from a person
>> totally immersed in his hatred.
>
>Such crude rhetoric which you and your colleagues have
>indulged in either together or separately proves that it is
>YOU and your “friends” who are totally immersed in hatred.
>Yet you have the shameless insolence to attempt to attribute
>your faults to me. People can read for themselves the comments
>made by you and such people as McVay, Van Alstine, Ken Lewis,
>and Power.
>
Mr. Blackmore seems to think that I should be associated with other
members of this conference and should take the blame for what they do.
It seems that Mr. Blackmore should be looking at the history of Nazi
Germany and the subject of this discussion rather than bring in other
persons not involved in this discussion.
>> He has exposed nothing. He refuses to
>> understand the principle of convergence of evidence. He defends his
>> badly phrased statements, most of which are taken out of context.
>
>Another lie and distortion, which people may test for themselves.
>My purpose is not to quote out of context, but to post their
>obvious lies.
>
Mr. Blackmore’s methods have indeed been demonstrated by this member
and others participating in this conference. Mr. Blackmore is indeed
correct that other persons can an will decide for themselves.
>> He ignores documentation by claiming that original source documents
>> are forged. In brief, he relies on typical denier tactics.
>
>What I am doing is FORCING you to prove your heinous allegations.
>And you and your friends are finding that providing acceptable proof
>is not as easy as making accusations. The hysteria engendered
>by the Second World War has now abated, and historians are
>beginning to re-examine the issues in a less bigoted fashion. As
>your version of the Holocaust rests upon a foundation of straw,
>it was bound to be questioned at some point in time anyway.
>
Mr. Blackmore hasn’t shown there to be much straw presented other than
the putrid straw he has presented as “evidence” to this conference.
> Subject: Re: Dr. Leo Lies like a Rug
>From: [email protected]
> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>rblackmore writes:
>
>No. You are deluded, and You are deluding people.
> Thesecamps had NO gas chambers.
>
>> Mr. Blackmore can yell “NO” until he is blue in the face, but the
>> sentient reader of these lines will not ignore the evidence:
>
>Your “evidence” is not evidence. What I require from you is a
>source for what you posted. Knowing you as I do, I suspect that
>you have again distorted the facts.
All sources and footnotes were provided for Mr. Blackmore. Here Mr.
Blackmore chooses to not address the issues at hand but prefers to
attack and draw assumptions about another individual’s motives.
>> He has been asked to explain what:
>>
>> >>
>> >> [Page 222 — Reference 1]
>> >>
>> >> “Langsshnitt durch, eine Entlausungkammer mit
>> >> Degesch-Kreislanufanordnung”
>> >>
>> >> signifies and why this unusual device is installed several times
>> >> in another section of the crematorium. Mr. Blackmore can’t
>> >> and won’t explain this.
>
>Why is this unusual, in your opinion?
The question was put to you, Mr. Blackmore.
>> >
>> >Yes. I will. Sections of Dachau were rebuilt AFTER the war.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore will not get off that easily on this point. He will
>> have to prove that the fumigation chambers on the Southern side of
>> the Dachau crematorium were built after the war. He cannot do this
>> because he has lied.
>
>No, you have to prove that they were built before the war.
Or maybe during? Clue: There are two different kinds of crematorium at
Dachau. There difference is mighty interesting. But that is for you to
research. Answer the questions put to you, Mr. Blackmore. One gets the
feeling that this Mr. Blackmore really has no understanding and is
being fed information. It is possible that this is the reason he can’t
deal with the questions.
>> He will also have to explain how the devices
>> mentioned above (which were built long before the war ended)
>> found themselves into the peculiar place that they are now
>> located.
>
>The expression refers to a delousing area. What is so unusual
>about that?
That’s one area. There is another you haven’t addressed.
>> This does not obscure the fact that the gas chamber exists to this
>> date and that photographs and motion pictures taken when the camp fell
>> in 1945 show this chamber much the same as it is now.
>
>The only “fact” that exists is that Dachau possessed delousing chambers
>and crematoria, just like every other KZ.
We were discussing the gas chamber there. Again Mr. Blackmore fails to
address the issues with any substance.
>> >>
>> >> 2) Natzweiler was so obviously used as a gas chamber that there
>> >> is a document written by the Nazis:
>> >
>> >Confirm this document is authentic. where did it come from, who found
>> >it, was it signed, of so, by whom, and where is the wirtten response to
>> >the inquiry or statement? Your “documents” are NOT documents until
>> >proven so beyond the shadow of a doubt.
>>
>> This sort of statement is expected from deniers
>
>Yes. This is the sort of statement that all inquirers want to ask-
>where is the proof? Mr. Curtis finds that unusual. I wonder why?
>You are the one who is trapped, by the way.
Mr. Blackmore needs to keep reading before Mr. Blackmore puts his foot
into his keyboard.
>
>, we will
>> refer sentient readers of this thread to peruse the following:
>>
>> From:
>>
>> _NAZI MASS MURDER_
>> Eugen Kogon et al. Editors
>> c. 1993, Yale University Press
>>
>> [Pages 199-200]
>>
>> (Statement presented by SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Josef Kramer
>> presented in July 1945 to the investigating judge at the
>> Strasbourg Trial)
>>
>(snip)
>
>>I snipped the statement as it is irrelevant.
Ah, snipped proof and calls it irrelevant. How convenient for Mr.
Blackmore than he can change threads and edit posts.
> Hundreds of people also
>testified that they kissed the devil’s behind and made potions out
>of eyes of newts and so on. People “confess” to crimes they never
>commit quite frequently. Sometimes they “confess” under pressure
>and coercion, as did Kramer, as his first statement, which WAS made
>freely and without coercion, does not refer to any of the nonsense he
>testified to later. Seeing that torture, intimidation, etc. was a matter of
>policy for the allies, his statement and the statements of the others
>are not credible. Indeed, when we examine them in detail, they sound
>absurd and contrary to common logic.
The above addresses nothing but is just another example of Mr.
Blackmore stomping his little feet.
>>
>> FN79: “See n. 76, exhibit 1806/V/I. See also Nuremb. Doc.
>> 807-NO, fols. 120ff. […] {See also} …exhibits 085-NO, 087-NO,
>> 088-NO, 089-NO, 091-NO…[…] Other SS members testified to the
>> gassings (the head of the work allocation office in Natzweiler,
>> Nitsche, ibid. file no. 4, bundle 12, exhibit 2277) […]
>>
>> Will Mr. Blackmore post evidence that the testimony and the documents
>> are false? No, he won’t, because he has lied.
>
>I have responded to this-and I do not lie.
I see that Mr. Blackmore doesn’t address the information but stomps
his little feet a little faster.
>> >> [page 199 — Reference 2]
>> >>
>> >> “On 26 September 1943 the construction department
>> >> of the Natzweiler camp, managed by the Waffen SS and
>> >> police, sent the following bil
>>
>> >[…] even if this particular chamber was a lethal one, which
>> >you need to prove-there is nothing illegal in the State using this form
>> >of execution for those condemned to death. we use gas chambers in
>> >America for the same purpose. They are called “legal executions”.
>>
>> AHA! The denier’s typical caveat. The victims were not killed by gas
>> but if they were killed by gas it was a legal execution! Mr.
>> Blackmore has reached unsuspected heights of dissimulation.
>
>Poppycock. The Third Reich was the legitimate government in
>Germany at the time. If sentences of death were passed and
>carried out, then the forms of legality were maintained. What I
>wrote is true and embarassing to you, but you are left with it
>nonetheless, and your frantic attempts to justify your impossible
>position only confirm your uneasiness in dealing with this subject.
>When you try to defend an untenable position, you will invariably
>run into problems.
>
Mr. Blackmore will of course present us with the sentences and the
trials for the crimes these folks committed. It is good to see that
Mr. Blackmore does admit that gas was used in Nazi Germany proper and
it seems Mr. Blackmore is willing to admit in the above paragraph that
gassing was done at Dachau.
>> The
>> truth, for concerned and sentient readers, is that these innocent
>> victims were selected in Auschwitz for a collection of skeletons that
>> Dr. Hirt had been authorized to produce.
>
>I will deal with this at a later date, but please rest assured that Mr.
>Curtis is not dealing with a full deck.
>
Insults seem to be the prefered method of argumentation for Mr.
Blackmore.
> For the more curious and
>> un-sqeamish, _The Struthof Album_ [New York: Beate Klarsfeld
>> Foundation, 1985] will supplement, with both photographic and
>> documentary evidence,
>
>Yes, photos taken from a School of Anatomy!
Tell the people here about those photos, Mr. Blackmore.
>
>> Mr. Blackmore is reminded of the footnote on page 197 regarding the
>> origins of the victims. There is, of course, nothing wrong in Mr.
>> Blackmore’s eyes, with killing young Jewish women from Greece.
>
>I have seen these photos and let me ask you who else besides these
>alleged women from Greece were included?
You did not address the source or the footnote, Mr. Blackmore.
>> > I think it rather foolish to construct a gas chamber
>> >for only 80 odd people, when they could have simply been given
>> >a phenol shot. Sounds like propaganda to me. And I have read
>> >about the construction of this alleged “gas chamber”. If what I
>> >read is indeed true then I denounce the accusation most emphatically.
>>
>> What Mr. Blackmore “thinks” lacks relevance. Unless he has proof
>> to the contrary, his statements are worthless.
>
>The same applies to you. You have not met the burden of proof in
>any case. And sometimes we need to look beyond what appearances
>seem to be to get to the real truth.
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet. What I have done may be beyond
the call of duty when dealing with deniers. I have posted proof of the
convergence of evidence. The reader has been able to get some idea as
to the historical method. What they have received from Mr. Blackmore
are out of context quotations and outright distortions. Then when
confronted with the obvious Mr. Blackmore would rather insult and
suggest rather than address the history by the historical method.
>> Mr. Blackmore “denounces” and denies but offers no proof whatsoever
>> to substantiate his odious allegations.
>
>I make no allegations other than that the “proofs” you rely upon
>to prove your allegations are in many cases a fraud. That I have
>proven time and time again. You are pedaling backwards.
>
Mr. Blackmore is still stomping in frustration. So all is a fraud. The
testimony presented from cited sources (including the very sources Mr.
Blackmore chooses to use himself!) are all fraud. Why is this? Because
they are inconvenient and counter Mr. Blackmore’s distortions. This
dear reader is what Mr. Blackmore is left with and is instructive to
the “revisionist” method.
> His “sounds like propaganda to
>> me” statement is nothing more than an admission that he cannot face
>> the truth. More is the pity.
>
>No, it is an admission that it sounds like propaganda to me.
Sounding like something does not make it so.
>> >> To which we add the testimony of Josef Kramer:
>> >
>> >Yes. kramer was brutalized by his captors. Witches also testified
>> >to making potions out of the eyes of newts and boiled down baby fat.
>> >His testimony does you no good.
>>
>> It is easy to malign Kramer’s captors with a slanderous statement.
>
>Right, Mike….the Germans were never mistreated, murdered, tormented,
>brutalized, or threatened in any way….is that what you are saying….?
> It is quite something else to prove that Kramer was brutalized.
Which you haven’t done so far. The Generalization that germans were
brutalized does not specifically go to this case and the data
available. I could claim that most of the survivors were brutalized.
This is an obvious given, however.
>It is quite something else to prove your ridiculous and hateful accusations.
>
>> The
>> testimony that Kramer presented was good enough to hang him.
>
>In other words, nil, as his sentence had been predetermined anyway.
Proof is something that Mr. Blackmore fails to provide.
>> Furthermore, Kramer was not the only perpetrator that admitted to
>> the gas chambers.
>
>Already went into this. He did NOT admit it until he was in “custody”
>a while.
>
> Mr. Blackmore ought to read his _Belsen Trial_
>> testimonies and interrogatories rather more closely.
>
[] = Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet.
>Don’t make suggestions that you do not adhere to yourself.
[]
>> How many
>> people apart from Kramer saw the gas chambers according to the
>> testimony in the book? Curious minds want to know.
>>
>> >And where are these orders?
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore is kindly referred to [FN79] above.
>
>In other words-there is no proof.
Note that Mr. Blackmore ignores the evidence.
>> >> 3) To end this small exercise in unmasking Mr. Blackmore’s deceit,
>> >> we will go to Neuengamme.
>> >
>> >On the contrary, it is not my “deceit” which is unmasked, but your
>> >low level of common sense, along with no proof to back up your
>> >claims.
>>
>> Good grief! Mr. Blackmore offers no evidence whatsoever to back up
>> his odious insinuations
>
>Good Grief! Where is your proof that there ever WAS a lethal
>gas chamber at Neuengamme? Your accusations are sounding
>more and more like the witch trials every day. You need PROOF,
>Mr. Curtis……
Good grief! Mr. Blackmore offers no evidence whatsoever to back up
his odious insinuations
>. He is is obviously carrying out an exercise in
>> Kafkian logic.
>
>I am carrying out an exercise in credibility-YOURS, specifically,
>and you are not faring too well, I fear.
>
[]
> [Page 193 — Reference 2]
>> >>
>> >> “It has been proved that two gassing operations took place
>> >> at the Neuengamme camp near Hamburg
>> >
>> >Who proved this? When? Where? How? Documentation?
>>
>> Does one hear the stamping of tiny feet once again?
>
>Yes, yours……at not being able to prove your heinous contentions.
>
[]
>> Mr. Blackmore
>> rattles off one question after another, but offers no proof to the
>> contrary
>
>You rattle off one accusation after another with no proof to back it
>up other than quotes out of context and witnesses who either lied
>out of malice or lied because they were mistreated. Hardly convincing.
>
[]
>> Even the more ‘rational’ deniers do better than that. For
>> those readers who are more in control of their faculties, a visit to
>> [FN69, page 193] of _Nazi Mass Murder_ is suggested.
>
>Yes, the same reference you criticized when I cited it to prove
>that Goering’s mandate to Heydrich had nothing to do with killing
>people. Caught in your own web again.
[]
>> > Soviet prisoners of war from Fallingbostel POW camp in the
>> >> Luneberg Heath were brought to Neuengamme, and were
>> >> killed as soon as they arrived.
>>
>> >Proof?
>>
>> More anguished, whimpering demands for “proof.” It is apparent
>> that Mr. Blackmore is incapable of looking up references without
>> being led by the hand: Once again, gently, FN69, page 193, of
>> _Nazi Mass Murder_.
>
>Yes, Mike, they transported these men from Luneberg to “gas” them in
>a facility that had no gas chamber, but used a bunker instead. Very
>credible, Mike.
Mr. Blackmore is urged to read on before sticking his foot into his
keyboard.
>> >>
>> >> “In Neuengamme there were no gas chambers, properly speaking.
>> >> What was known as the ‘bunker’ was used:
>> >
>> >So, they were “gassed” in a bunker?
>>
>> One must be careful when Mr. Blackmore truncates a posted statement.
>> This originally read:
>>
>> [*deleted text*]
>>
>> >> “In Neuengamme there were no gas chambers, properly speaking.
>> >> What was known as the ‘bunker’ was used: *it served as the camp
>> >> prison, and it was here that executions usually took place*.[…]”
>
>
>Oh…executions. Of course you can tell us the names of these men and
>why they were executed. Could it be for the same reason that 90,000
>Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad by the humane Soviets
>NEVER returned home?
Again Mr. Blackmore present prrof of his unwillingness to do his own
research. This is a typical response when a denier is cornered. They
also attempt to shift the argument to another subject.
>>
>> The statement is quite clear. The prisoners were gassed in the camp
>> prison which was called “the bunker.” Can Mr. Blackmore prove
>> otherwise?
>
>So, that is your “proof”-an ALLEGATION which you believe in religiously.
[]
>> >. It was made gastight and new doors installed, along with
>> >> a system of heating pipes that served for distributing the gas
>> >> and
>> >> for ventilation. […]”
>
>Sounds like a delousing chamber to me.
>> >
>> >And you have these orders for construction, which prove this
>> >was a facility to kill human beings?
>>
>> Those who doubt the previous statements are invited to visit [FN70]
>> on page 271 of _Nazi Mass Murder_.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Reference 1:
>> >>
>> >> _AUSCHWITZ: 1270 to the Present_
>> >>
>> >Have it. Rehashes the SOS.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore does not appear to have this book in spite of his
>> protestations.
>
>I do indeed own the book, but I lent it out to someone. Perhaps you
>will post their interpretation of this dubious passage?
>
LOL! (Sorry, I couldn’t help it! Mr. Blackmore has loaned it.)
> If he had the book he could easily explain what:
>>
>> “Langsshnitt durch, eine Entlausungkammer mit
>> Degesch-Kreislanufanordnung”
>>
>> signifies and why it is relevant to Dachau. He can’t, he won’t, and
>> the world is laughing at him.
>
>
>On the contrary, the world is laughing at you. Can’t you hear them?
Just a minute. Mr. Blackmore will have to wait until I stop laughing.
>> >>
>> >> Reference 2:
>> >>
>> >> _NAZI MASS MURDER_
>> >> Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein & Adalbert Ruckerl, Editors
>> >>
>> >Have it and you criticized when I quoted from it
>> >regarding Goering and the “Final Solution”, but now you run into
>> >their arms to support your unsupportable contentions.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore must surely be jesting. Who precisely does he
>> accuse of running into the arms of the editors of the book? The
>> subject at hand deals with the gas chambers and the quality of the
>> testimony in the _Belsen Trial._
>
>All right. Then I will refer you and the sentient readers to chapter
>8 in Kogons “Mass Murder”. I refer you specifically to the section
>on Dachau, pages 202-204 for yet another example of historical
>bunk.
>
Mr. Blackmore is urged to tell us about it. I’m quite tired of doing
all the work.
>> Mr. Blackmore cannot answer why many, many
>> perpetrators, witnesses, victims, and those who built gas chambers
>> have testified as to their existence. Does he imply that everyone was
>> tortured? Does he imply that millions of documents have been
>> falsified? If so, he must present proof of a different sort than just
>> a simple snit-fit. By not posting his evidence he admits to acts of
>> obfuscation and deceit.
>
>You have not admitted even ONCE that ANY of the testimony
>quoted was perhaps, shall I say…..fabricated?
Why should I begin to lie as Mr. Blackmore is most willing to do?
> The fact that you
>have not done so proves that it is you who is without hope. Your
>credibility is very low, as you believe as a matter of implicit FAITH,
>out of conviction, rather than what reason tells or ought to tell you.
>
I am, of course, crushed that I am such a hopeless case for Mr.
Blackmore. His frustrated efforts to overcome his distortions end up
here with an attack on my character and convictions.
From [email protected] Fri Oct 25 14:09:23 PDT 1996
Article: 76977 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:19:02 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <Dzn91[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<jamie-231096113806000[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<54og[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>
>>>>”Ceacaa” knows this, but he pretends he doesn’t, because he’s trying to
>>>>persuade lurkers who might not know any better.
>
>>>I doubt it very seriously. I think he’s as puzzled as anyone.
>
>>_If_ “Ceacaa” is “puzzled”, Mr. Stele, it can only be the result of
>>observing that he is able to convince no one – except, of course,
>>hate-filled, fact-bereft societal misfits such as you have proven
>>yourself to be.
>
>Actually increasingly numbers of people are waking up to the Lie of the
“Holocaust”due to
>puzzlements such as Ceacaa’s. And I notice you do not refute Ceacaa either.
Mr. Allen or is it Andrews. No matter, it seems the good sir revels in
hiding his identitiy as do most deniers. The fellow refutes himself.
From [email protected] Fri Oct 25 14:09:25 PDT 1996
Article: 76978 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis’s “Gas Chambers”
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:25:25 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <54ok2t$d[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>My compliments to your “ghost writer,” Mr. “Blackmore.” In this
>particular post of yours he has managed to demonstrate that he is
>capable of mocking his opponent, by attempting to mimic his style.
>
And, you might add, typically failing.
>And he has incorporated just about every trick in the
>denier/distortionist handbook. Even those of the witless troll – whom
>he seems to hold in such high esteem. How very “clever” of him.
>There must be at least two people who are absolutely in awe of this
>demonstration of his “impressive intellect and knowledge.”
>
They do tend to pat each other on the back. 🙂
>Of course, the post fails to address Mr. Curtis’ questions, evidence
>and/or arguments in any meaningful way. But why should we quibble,
>eh?!
>
Mr. Curtis is used to it.
>In <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>This is my response to Mike Cutris, re:, the following:
>
>For the record, here are the headers and first few lines of the post
>to which Mr. “Blackmore” claimed to be responding:
>
><begin>
>
>From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Mr. Blackmore is stomping his tiny feet
>Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:22:06 GMT
>Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
>Lines: 330
>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: mike.aimetering.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299
>
>I found this on DejaNews rather than my server so I thought it best to
>respond.
>
>>Subject: Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo
>
>Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by
>calling them names. Does this show that Mr. Blackmore is a
>misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?
>
><end>
>
>> Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo
>> Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by calling
them names. Does this show that Mr.
>>Blackmore is a
>> misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?
>
>>Did that get your attention? Good, it was meant to. Am I a misogynist?
>
>Perhaps you would be wiser to refrain from such “attention seeking”
>behaviours and direct your efforts towards learning how to engage in
>_honest_ debate, Mr. … uh …. “Blackmore.”
>
>Sorry to disappoint you, Mr. Belling/Blackmore or whoever you are.
>Regardless of what your “coach” may be telling you, these little games
>you have now resorted to playing are really quite juvenile and
>tiresome – and boringly repetitive, to boot!
>
>Can you not do better than this?! Why not pick another nym and even
>if you have no interest in discussing the historical facts of the
>Holocaust (which from your posts would seem to be the case), ask your
>ghost writer to give you some new material so that you can entertain
>us with pastings (oops, sorry, postings) that have a little more
>originality.
>
This would be a good way to start over. Mr. Blackmore does need better
coaching.
From [email protected] Fri Oct 25 14:09:25 PDT 1996
Article: 77005 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 16:40:18 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 125
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>Don’t tell me what I can and cannot grasp. I grasp it all too well and it
>does not convince me. We are talking about alleged murders. You people
>had it easy for years because the charter at Nuremberg stated that
>the Tribunal and other tribunals to follow would not be restrained
>by “technical rules of evidence”. Well, those days are over
>and people are now demanding the technical evidence which was
>ignored 50 years ago.
It was ignored! (Gasp, I don’t think so, Mr. Blackmore!) So far you
have presented nothing very technical but out-of-context quotations
>from very difficult and hard to obtain books. “You people” is such an
interesting way of putting it. This suggests that we agree in every
matter when, in fact, we do not.
> Of course, they could not supply it then
>and you cannot supply it now. It is your problem, not mine. Your
>version of the Holocaust is being called to account.
>
Unfortunately the problem IS Mr. Blackmore’s. The problem is that Mr.
blackmore cannot handle the burden he has taken on and so he returns
to stomping his little feet.
> Let’s take an example. If I were to ask you to produce the single most
> convincing piece of evidence that World War II had actually occurred,
> you could not produce a single piece of convincing evidence. If you
> were to produce a copy of the US declarations of war, for instance, I
> could immediately object that it contains no record of battles, and
> troop movements, no casualty lists, no records of arms manufacture, no
> evidence that other countries were involved in the alleged World War.
> In order to prove to me that World War II actually occurred you would
> have to produce a variety of kinds of evidence *and* give an account> of it.
>
>If you are going to accuse people of murder, you had better be
>able to prove it.
We have. The murders admitted it. Eichmann, Höss, and many others
admitted it. It is you, Mr. Blackmore who present such a poor defence.
It’s okay that you cannot see it.
[snipped an unaddressed portion and more stamping of little feet]
>These documents do not refer to lethal gas chambers to
>kill human beings, though you choose to attach that
>interpretation because it is convenient for you to do so.
What of the blue prints, the orders of supplies, the testimony by both
the inmates and the Germans, the letters, the diaries, and the remains
of crematoriums of such a vast number that boggles the mind?
>> Skipping ahead in the narrative, in October 1943, Himmler gave a
>> speech of encouragement to a group of demoralized SS officers in which
>> he said: “I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the
>> extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things
>> that is easily said. ‘The Jewish people is being exterminated.'”
>
>This whole speech is highly controversial and in any event does
>not prove that people were being murdered.
No, they were being exterminated. Even Eichmann admitted that Jews
were sent to concentration camps and killed. Even Höss testified that
he expected 20% to 30% of a transport to be useful for work. The rest
were exterminated or gassed. He used the word gassed, I believe.
[snip]
>> or with forensic reports on cyanide traces or the locations of mass
>> graves which match witness accounts.
>
>I have read these reports and they do not prove lethal gassings
>to kill human beings.
>
Stomping his uncomfortable little feet.
>Instead, I will ask you to do
>> something which you have not done so far and that is to give an
>> explanation of the railway records which accounts for the following:
>>
>> 1) an authentic minutes that describes a plan to work Jews to death
>> and deal with the rest
>
>Answered this. The Wannsee conference did not mention the killing of
>Jews as was attested to by some of the participants decades later.
Really. Who? Please keep it in context.
>> 2) the construction of a large labour camp with an crematory
>> overcapacity to be run by the very people given the task of settling
>> the Jewish question
>
>Crematory ovens were common in camps. Auschwitz was a massive
>facility, consequently they needed more ovens, especially since they
>broke down frequently anyway.
Then they burned the bodies in huge pits.
>> 3) construction documents which make reference to gas chambers at the
>> places where bodies are to be disposed of
>
>These refer to gas chambers for delousing and bodies which had died
>from disease or old age, etc.
No proof offerred.
>> 4) a document which orders that the accounting of prisoner property
>> cease just at the time that the mass murder of inmates is alleged to
>> have begun
>
>Taking property for the war effort is not the same as taking lives.
>This is apparently a coincidence.
No documentation offerred just Mr. Blackmore’s tiring opinions.
[snipped the rest of Mr. Blackmore’s weak drivel.]
From [email protected] Sun Oct 27 15:59:15 PST 1996
Article: 77367 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 19:57:36 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
It is hard to distinguish Mr. Blackmore from Jamie but I can guess.
There is the one making specific points and other not doing much of
anything. The latter is Blackmore.
> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> 2. I would say that the Nazis treatment of the Jewish
> people was similar to America’s treatment of Native Americans.
>
> In other words,
>
>No, in YOUR words……
>
> they ruthlessly stripped them of their possessions and
Ruthlessly is not entirely accurate in every case. There is a factor
of two distinct cultures, Jamie, and they failed to understand the
other. The major difference with the Germans and the Jews is that they
spoke the same language and shared most of the same culture. They did
not share the same religion. Just as there is a catholic Germany
(South) and a protestant Germany (North) there was an urban Jewish
community. this community was a distinct minority.
Another difference is that some Indian communitees tended to leave a
particular location at seasonal times. This wasn’t understood by the
European community.
> land, treated them like animals,
The Indian failed to grasp the European culture and would attack their
communities in forms that could be described as animalistic. Normally
women and children were taken back by the attacking party. Many of
these prisoners were later incorporated into the tribe. The Europeans
tried the same thing only to meet with massive failure. The cultures
just simply didn’t understand each other. There was no such excuse for
the Germans in there treatment of their own kind and the Jewish
population.
> sent them on forced marches with
> staggering death rates, and let disease kill them by the hundreds of
> thousands.
This is true. Barbarities can be found among the Indian tribes, Jamie.
They were after all a minority. They couldn’t even get along with each
other. To some degree they had “racist” ideas about other tribes. They
also turned on their own kind. No history is simplistic. There is no
excuse for what individual communities did to the natives in the end.
We are looking at history through our modern eyes and forget that
frontier settlers had to deal with a culture and a group of people
they didn’t understand.
> (The similarity ends in the camps, where the Nazis built
> machines of mass murder, though of course you would deny the facts of
> the matter.) Further, a significant segment of the population,
> probably the majority, had not even enough sympathy with the victims
> to raise their voices in protest.
Actually, there was much support in the east. But the frontier
communities elected their senators and representatives to take care of
a problem they saw as dangerous. Grant even appointed an Indian to be
the head of Indian Affiars. I have found that there was much blame to
go around with both sides. The fact that one was a minority and of a
completely different culture both in language and in thought makes it
very sad indeed. This fact is only true in one way when the
German/Jewish question is studied.
> Yes, there were similarities, as you say, though I’m sure you intended
> connotations with which I could not agree. Both are monstrous crimes,
> beyond the capacity of words to express.
>
There was no government plot to destroy the Indians as a race.
>You did just fine expressing it, though indeed I disagree
>with the accusations you expressed.
>
He didn’t really express any.
> Protest under the Nazi regime was of course much more difficult than
> protest in the American Colonies or the newly-formed U.S. of A.
> Furthermore, the population of the Colonies and States was not
> subjected to a torrent of anti-Indian propaganda in anything like the
> way that the German population was.
>
>Nonsense. Furthermore, both Indians and whites indulged in
>horrific massacres.
>
He’s talking about the propaganda. To some degree Jamie is not
informed about the propaganda within England, Spain, and France. This
propaganda seems to be more cultural misunderstanding than anything
else. To the Puritan the natives were the children of Satan and had to
be saved. To the French they were a market to be exploited. To the
Spanish they were just trash. John Smith was fired on immediately by a
Virginia tribe. It seems that they didn’t trust Europeans.
One difference that I can immediately see is that the Jews never
indulged in a massacre against the Germans to bring on the way they
were treated.
>(snip)
>
> I would say the most important differences are: (1) Native Americans
> were never subjected to forced labor (to my knowledge) on the scale
> that the Nazis used their enemies.
>
>They certainly were subjected to forced labor in South America and
>Mexico on a massive scale.
>
Native Americans to Americans are the North American Indian tribes.
> (2) The technologies differed,
>> allowing the Nazis to be much more efficient in their mass murder.
>
>What mass murder do you refer to?
Mr. Blackmore chooses to act dumb.
>> Most importantly, (3) the Nazi slaughter took place not on a frontier
>> being explored, but on land that had been civilized a thousand years
>> prior; not of a remote, unseen, illiterate people, but of a people
>> who for years had lived side-by-side with the aggressors in peace and
>> fought side-by-side with them in war; and not in a time of discovery,
>> but in a time of enlightenment and Kultur.
>
>What area are you referring to? Poland? Soviet Russia?
Pretty soon he’ll be stomping his feet.
> The familiarity and
>> modernity of the Nazi crime and its victims made shocking contrast
>> with the hideous barbarity of its results.
>
>The accusations are shocking. They have yet to be proven, and I can’t
>see where the alleged acts of the nazis were more inhumane than the acts
>of the Soviets or the other allies.
Mr. Blackmore forgets that we are dealing with the Nazis and not the
Soviets.
[snipped so what trail]
>> I might add something about theories of racial supremacy having been
>> discredited by mainstream scientific circles by the time of the Nazis,
>
>By whom? You have heard of C. Coon, Lothrop Stoddard, Morton,
>Gobineau, etc. So what you write here is not a fact.
>
Mr. Balckmore is stomping his little feet [tm]!
[snip]
That was fun
From [email protected] Sun Oct 27 23:06:48 PST 1996
Article: 77418 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The tactics of Mr. Blackmore Displayed
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 20:18:52 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 115
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There doesn’t seems to be much left of Mr. Blackmore’s research so
let’s look at his replies. It doesn’t much matter what I presented as
data any more.
Subject: Re: Bimko on the Bum
From: [email protected]
Date: 1996/10/25
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Reply-To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
[email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
Someone says: Have you checked any of those assumptions?
Blackmore : Yes. She is a liar.
[a lot of material snipped]
Mike: Can’t you see Mr. Blackmore stomping his little feet and
gathering dust like Pigpen?
Blackmore: So, now it is “Pigpen”……..very scholarly indeed..
Can’t one see the imagery ?
<< Now, if she did indeed describe this building inaccurately, does
this mean that she never saw it?>>
<<She is the one who claimed to have been given a royal
tour through the “Black Museum”.>>
No, she never claimed to have been given a tour, Mr. Blackmore.
Mike: Mr. Blackmore’s obvious hatred and fevered imagination are
getting the best of him.
Blackmore: Obvious hatred? Get off your little soap-box, because
no one is listening to your whining anyway. It is clear
that my arguments have gotten the best of you, and
rather quickly, I might add, which says something about
your instability.
It does seem that Mr. blackmore has lost control.
> In no place does the witness claim
> to have been given a “grand tour” of the gas chambers. Mr.
> Blackmore is challenged to document the exact amount of
> time that the witness spent in the gas chamber. He can’t and
> he won’t.
Blackmore: She was there long enough to lie about it, and that’s all
I am concerned with. You wish to defend her lies? Go
ahead-she is probably one of the best witnesses you have.
First you have to make a case for her lying.
[I’ll bet that Mr. Blackmore will say that he has. . .somewhere. Don’t
bother looking gentle readers for you will not find it.]
> > If so, how is it that we know what building
> >> she was describing?
> >
> >Read her testimony.
>
> Sound like Mr. Blackmore really hasn’t an answer to a specific
> question. This makes me wonder if Mr. Blackmore has read the testimony
> himself.
Blackmore: Fantasy island…….
This must be where Mr. Blackmore resides.
> [snipped dual ad hominems]
> >> I will skip your babblings on HCN cylinders since it’s outside my
> >> competence. From reading your own words, it looks like it’s outside
> >> yours as well.
> >
> >I didn’t post anything of mine on the cylinders. As I said, the
> >info above was supplied via a browser, and what they wrote appears
> >to be true.
> No, he appears to have gotten Mr. Blackmore backed against a wall and
> so he resorts to personal attacks and avoids the issues. Typical
> methods of the denier.
Blackmore: Personal attacks? How is “Pigpen” for starters?
Mr. Blackmore is so out of sorts that he thinks I was calling him
Pigpen. The case is that the image struck me that as Mr. Blackmore
stomped his little feet as hard as he seems to be doing that dust
would gather up around him. Just like Pigpen. What happened to Pigpen
anyway? (I’m not asking you, Mr. Blackmore, for I know you will not
give me an answer.)
Blackmore: It is curious indeed how every epithet you apply to
me applies to yourself….there must be something
very Freudian in all of this? Tell me, how did you
get along with your mother and father?
Oh my, now he wants information about my childhood! At least my
rlelatives were not destroyed by the Nazis. This made my making
possible.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 28 07:12:05 PST 1996
Article: 77491 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:40:52 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <54jrrb$mm@atlas.uniserve.com> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>ON 21 Oct 1996 Daniel Keren raised an
>important point asking,
>
>>the Kremas were built.
>>You don’t deny that, do you?
>
>No, Revisionists don’t deny that the Kremas
>were built. The fact that the Kremas WERE built
>is a significant Revisionist argument. The
>building of the Kremas makes no sense in the
>standard Holocaust story.
This is truly ridiculous. Then he has the temerity to go on about what
was done in places other than Auschwitz when talking about Kremas in
Auschwitz.
> Remember that Kremas II and III at Birkenau were
>built in March and June of 1943 respectively. This was
>after over 1.2 million people were murdered
>and cremated in pits at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec
>(SHM). This had been done very efficiently in a matter of
>about 12 months and all done cheaply with “pit cremation”.
Well, the only consolation is that this clown does admit that 1.2
million people were murdered by the Nazis.
> Also remember that “pit cremation” was supposed to
>have been used at Auschwitz/Birkenau both prior to
>and after the construction of the Kremas. The question
>becomes, why spend two million Reichmarks and
>six months on building two Crematorium which only
>increases your “capacity” 25% when it is possible to reach
>the same end immediately (and for free) by digging another
>pit? Further, why give up a proven reliable system for the
>the problems of a system that had various complexities
>and has subject to breakdowns such as the burn out of the
>chimneys at Kremas IV and V.
They probably thought it would be less public and cleaner. It seems
they thought a little more than you do.
>The construction of Kremas II and III is a significant
>anomaly in the Holocaust story.
>
Only in your messed up mind.
[snipped the reast. It doesn’t matter.]
From [email protected] Mon Oct 28 07:12:06 PST 1996
Article: 77492 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:40:59 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>Jamie McCarthy writes on
>23 Oct 1996
>Ceacaa) wrote:
>
>>> Pressac seems more than content with what he calls
>>> “criminal traces”, usually little “slips” in the masses
>>> of documents that the Germans left. Ask Pressac
>>> to look at the actual ruins,
>
>>I assume you can explain how Pressac found
>>the places where the dummy
>>showerheads were attached to the ceiling of L.1.
> Actually, I cannot explain how Pressac found
>the places where “dummy showerheads were
>attached to the ceiling” because I looked
>for them and COULD NOT find them.
>There were some wooden blocks set into the
>ceiling (this is a never before printed or posted
>item) but Pressac is not clear if he bases
>his claims on these wooden blocks. He
>neglected to take any pictures.
>
It seems that you did to since you refuse to do the work expected of
true revisionist history.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 28 07:12:06 PST 1996
Article: 77503 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:20:44 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <32548D[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]><[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<53thk8$k[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>[email protected] (Gord McFee) wrote:
>
>>:>They have no further evidence.
>
>>Bullshit. Former SS admitted that a Sonderaktion was a codeword for killing.
>>Eichmann admitted it; I would assume he would know. Franz Suchomel admitted
>>it–he was an SS guard.
>
>Oh yeah, Franz Suchomel; gave another “come-lately” interview on some Jewish
documentary.
>He said special action meant “gassing.”
Höss said it meant extermination (gassing, shooting] in 1946-7.
Eichmann said it meant extermaination [gassing–shooting] in 1960-1
I’ll bet we can make a list of Germans who immediately understood what
was meant by that phrase.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 28 09:41:02 PST 1996
Article: 77522 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:04:02 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 205
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> It is hard to distinguish Mr. Blackmore from Jamie but I can guess.
> There is the one making specific points and other not doing much of
> anything. The latter is Blackmore.
>
I do suggest that Mr. Balckmore read a post before he makes stupid
statements.
>Only a slave to another person’s opinions would make
>that comment.
>
> [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> 2. I would say that the Nazis treatment of the Jewish
> people was similar to America’s treatment of Native Americans.
>
> In other words,
>
>No, in YOUR words……
>
> they ruthlessly stripped them of their possessions and
>
> Ruthlessly is not entirely accurate in every case. There is a factor
> of two distinct cultures, Jamie, and they failed to understand the
> other.
>
I haven’t a clue as to what this means. I guess disagreeing with
someone is agreeing in Mr. Blackmore’s world. It does point to the
kind of discussion Mr. Blackmore’s ignorance reduces him to.
>Oh, ta ta. Pete and RePete.
>
>e major difference with the Germans and the Jews is that they
> spoke the same language and shared most of the same culture. They did
> not share the same religion. Just as there is a catholic Germany
> (South) and a protestant Germany (North) there was an urban Jewish
> community. this community was a distinct minority.
>
>Jewish people were still Jews of the mediterranean, Semitic race of
>people, which differs from the european stock,
Differs how? How does their humanity differ?
>as the Native
>Americans and the White Europeans, with the exception that the
>Germans were the indigenous population, to which the Jews had
>more or less assimilated themselves over the centuries. This is a
>simple fact which you will now seek to distort, no doubt.
I suggest you read a post before commenting.
> In America,
>though the intruders were white europeans, they did not assimilate
>themsleves into the Native American system of society but reversed
>the role.
>
I believe this is what I was saying.
> Another difference is that some Indian communitees tended to leave a
> particular location at seasonal times. This wasn’t understood by the
> European community.
>
>Many Indians were migratory. Also, ever heard of the expression
>”Wandering Jews”?
What does this have to with the migratory habits of the native
Americans?
> land, treated them like animals,
>
> The Indian failed to grasp the European culture and would attack their
> communities in forms that could be described as animalistic. Normally
> women and children were taken back by the attacking party. Many of
> these prisoners were later incorporated into the tribe.
>
>Many were, and many weren’t. Many warlike tribes took prisoners
>simply to torture them to death. However, even in the warlike tribes
>captives were often integrated into tribal society. In war, Native
>Americans usually gave no quarter nor expected any, as this formed
>a part of their “warrior code”.
I think you watch too many “westerns.” There was a discussion over the
treatment of women and children among warriors and the leader of an
English garrison. The wanted to know if it was the English way to kill
women and children. The Englishman answered that it was not his
discision to make. The Indians considered this in shocked silence and
retorted that if that was to be the way of English war, they could be
just as savage. This was in 1637.
> The Europeans
> tried the same thing only to meet with massive failure. The cultures
> just simply didn’t understand each other. There was no such excuse for
> the Germans in there treatment of their own kind and the Jewish
> population.
>
This is of course nonresponsive to the point being made. Should we
expect anything less from Mr. Blackmore?
>One can always find excuses. Of course you will turn
>this around and say tha I am the one looking for excuses.
>Your responses are so predictable by now.
>
> sent them on forced marches with
> staggering death rates, and let disease kill them by the hundreds of
> thousands.
>
> This is true. Barbarities can be found among the Indian tribes, Jamie.
> They were after all a minority. They couldn’t even get along with each
> other. To some degree they had “racist” ideas about other tribes. They
> also turned on their own kind. No history is simplistic. There is no
> excuse for what individual communities did to the natives in the end.
> We are looking at history through our modern eyes and forget that
> frontier settlers had to deal with a culture and a group of people
> they didn’t understand.
>
>For once I agree with Mr. Curtis’s evaluation.
This does go with the rest of my arguments, however.
> (The similarity ends in the camps, where the Nazis built
> machines of mass murder, though of course you would deny the facts of
> the matter.) Further, a significant segment of the population,
> probably the majority, had not even enough sympathy with the victims
> to raise their voices in protest.
>
> Actually, there was much support in the east. But the frontier
> communities elected their senators and representatives to take care of
> a problem they saw as dangerous. Grant even appointed an Indian to be
> the head of Indian Affiars.
>
>An “uncle Tom”, as some considered him. Similar to
>the Jewish Ghetto Police.
Excuse me? And this comes from what historical source?
[snip]
>> He’s talking about the propaganda. To some degree Jamie is not
>> informed about the propaganda within England, Spain, and France. This
>> propaganda seems to be more cultural misunderstanding than anything
>> else. To the Puritan the natives were the children of Satan and had to
>> be saved. To the French they were a market to be exploited. To the
>> Spanish they were just trash. John Smith was fired on immediately by a
>> Virginia tribe. It seems that they didn’t trust Europeans.
>>
>> One difference that I can immediately see is that the Jews never
>> indulged in a massacre against the Germans to bring on the way they
>> were treated.
>
>Apparently not, in the sense that we are thinking of it.
>According to the Nazis interpretation, they thought differently.
Thought? They attempted total extermination based on a thought!
[snip]
>> Native Americans to Americans are the North American Indian tribes.
>
>In this context, then no. they had the Afro-Americans for that.
We are speaking about native Americans and not blacks at this point.
Stay with the subject matter.
[snip]
>> > The familiarity and
>> >> modernity of the Nazi crime and its victims made shocking contrast
>> >> with the hideous barbarity of its results.
>> >
>> >The accusations are shocking. They have yet to be proven, and I can’t
>> >see where the alleged acts of the nazis were more inhumane than the acts
>> >of the Soviets or the other allies.
>>
>> Mr. Blackmore forgets that we are dealing with the Nazis and not the
>> Soviets.
>
>He brought the subject of Nazi crimes up…..
Mr. Balckmore seems to think the Nazis are the Soviets. Mr. Blackmore
is confused.
[snip]
>> That was fun
>
>Wasn’t it?
Only when you stayed on subject.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 28 12:52:23 PST 1996
Article: 77538 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:16:32 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Gord McFee) writes:
>
> :>Between two Germans this may not be the case. However in the course of
>> :>learning this language the der die das articles are very difficult to
>> :>keep straight.
>
>Right, Gord…..Der Mann, Die Frau…….
Das Mädchen.
Die Männer
>> :>
>> :>> German makes the genders quite
>> :>>clear.
>> :>
>> :>To other Germans. However sie and Sie can be confused as Mark Twain
>> :>points out
>
>We are talking about a man and a woman……
Sie is the plural for they or the singular you (formal) or the
singular she. It isn’t always gender specific.
>
>. Some verbs can be turned into nouns by adding the neutral
>> :>das before them. Secondly you haven’t a clue as to how the session
>> :>went between the questioners and te questioned.
>
>Doesn’t cut it……
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet.
>> More than that, Mike. “Blackmore” doesn’t know any German at all.
He’s just
>> inventing what he says from whole cloth.
>
>Sure. believe whatever you want…..you do anyway,
>and this is no less full of shit than all the other tripe
>you swallow like a dime novel…..
Mr. Blackmore stomps his little feet.
>> (BTW, can you guess what his answer to this will be?)
>
>There it is……
It wasn’t even as clever as I expected it to be.
From [email protected] Tue Oct 29 11:14:18 PST 1996
Article: 77689 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:53:09 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 55
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<5426ks[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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Brian Harmon <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > [email protected] (John Morris) writes:
>> > [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Either way, it is irrelevant what
>> > > Hoess wrote then or before as it is all absolute rubbish.
>> > > Neither 1.3 million died, nor 4 million, nor 4.5 million,
>> > > nor 2 million, nor 2,5 million. Get the
>> > >point? It is all worthless. Now, where is the proof that anyone
>> > >was gassed at Auschwitz? Are you relying on Hoess?
>> >
>> > Piper does not rely on Hoess, nor did Georges Wellers. As I recall,
>> > Piper rejected all of Hoess’ figures since they were all guesses
>> > anyway.
>>
>> Not guesses, but fabrications, IMO.
>
>Well, ‘in your opinion’ Kramer did all he could to help
>the inmates of Belsen, which included:
>
> – refusing to give them water
> – refusing to give them food
> – refusing to give them medical attention
> – forcing them to work without any of the above.
>
>Your opinions of how Kramer ‘helped’ the inmates are
>interesting, to put the matter lightly.
>
>>
>> What Piper (and Wellers and Czech and Hilberg) relied upon
>> > chiefly were the railway billings for the numbers of deportees to
>> > Auschwitz, documents which were not ever, by the way, in Soviet hands.
>>
>> The Soviets have other records that have since become available
>> to researchers. Railway timetables are in no way proof that people
>> were being transported to Auschwitz or anywhere else in order to
>> murder them.
>
>Well over a million people were transferred to Auschwitz
>by train. 200,000 were transferred out, and a few were released.
>
>The rest vanished without a trace.
>
>Given that Hoess, Eichmann, Broad, Mueller, Franke-Gricksch, Kammler,
>Fajnzylberg, Gurstein, Kramer and many others either testified or
>wrote (letters, memos, etc) that Jews were being murdered wholesale
>inside Auschwitz, what do you think happened to these people?
>
They were torturing themselves to write such things? 🙂
From [email protected] Tue Oct 29 21:45:45 PST 1996
Article: 77748 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars…
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:42 GMT
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Lines: 29
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<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>[email protected] (Ceacaa) wrote:
>
>> Pressac seems more than content with what he calls
>> “criminal traces”, usually little “slips” in the masses
>> of documents that the Germans left. Ask Pressac
>> to look at the actual ruins,
>
>I assume you can explain how Pressac found the places where the dummy
>showerheads were attached to the ceiling of L.1.
>
>You know, the showerheads that show up in the inventory document, a copy
>of which he reproduces.
>
>You know, the showerheads that many eyewitnesses have testified to.
>
>I’m sure it’s just a “little ‘slip'” — but why don’t you explain them
>for us anyway. After all, you’re an expert on the actual ruins.
>
Except he failed to take any pictures while he was there and refuses
to use them to his benefit. Something is not ringing true here, Jamie.
Posted/emailed
From [email protected] Wed Oct 30 07:29:10 PST 1996
Article: 77767 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:09:18 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 24
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>> [email protected] writes:
>>
>> >Where else would have been a good place to deport them?
>>
>> Why was there any need to deport them?
I notice that Mr. Balckmoere failed to answer this question.
>> This is the same writer who explicitly blamed Katyn on the Nazis?
>> Very reliable source, obviously. Not to mention the moral idiocy
>> of justifying genocide by the fact that some members of the group
>> being annihilated choose to fight back.
>The fighting started way before you suggest they
>fought back…….
Instead he answers with an unsuibstantiated statement.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 30 16:55:43 PST 1996
Article: 77843 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore: inconsistent idiot
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:38:39 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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<[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
>
>> >>~From: A Secret Press in nazi Europe, pg. 18.
>> >
>> >So what is your point in quoting from a book which you have
>> >already established to be untrustworthy?
>It’s all coming to a theatre near you soon……
Not from you, obviously, since it seems you have run away.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 30 16:55:45 PST 1996
Article: 77846 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let’s Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:05:36 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 185
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[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] (Mike Curtis) writes:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>Don’t tell me what I can and cannot grasp. I grasp it all too well and it
>does not convince me.
>
Well, folks, there is nothing new about Mr. Blackmore ignoring
evidence.
> It was ignored! (Gasp, I don’t think so, Mr. Blackmore!) So far you
> have presented nothing very technical but out-of-context quotations
> from very difficult and hard to obtain books. “You people” is such an
> interesting way of putting it. This suggests that we agree in every
>
>So you say……
Mr. Blackmore should realize that I’m using his own words.
Here’s a great retort:
>
>Talking about yourself again?
>
> We have. The murders admitted it. Eichmann, Höss, and many others
> admitted it. It is you, Mr. Blackmore who present such a poor defence.
> It’s okay that you cannot see it.
>
>Oh, yes, they admitted their grievious errors and abominable crimes-as
>did the “witches” in years past. No matter that the witches were weighed
>down with heavy stones, pricked with needles, ducked under water,
>stretched on the rack, promised leniency for themselves
>or for their family for a “full confession” which
>would implicate others…….no similarity at all, eh, Mike?
>Or Stalin’s infamous “show trials” where all was confessed to
>openly, before being sentenced to death………Mike, your
>responses are becoming more hysterical as the days pass.
>
We are trying to stay on subject here, Mr. Blackmore. Sorry that you
choose to digress and insinuate with past events that do not apply to
the case at hand.
> [snipped an unaddressed portion and more stamping of little feet]
>
> These documents do not refer to lethal gas chambers to
> kill human beings, though you choose to attach that
> interpretation because it is convenient for you to do so.
>
> What of the blue prints, the orders of supplies, the testimony by both
> the inmates and the Germans, the letters, the diaries, and the remains
> of crematoriums of such a vast number that boggles the mind?
>
>Blue prints-let’s discuss them. Which blue-prints? And
>what do you think they purport to show?
>
They show the conversion process. Chutes become stairs as though the
dead could walk. What of the blue prints, the orders of supplies, the
testimony by both the inmates and the Germans, the letters, the
diaries, and the remains of crematoriums of such a vast number that
boggles the mind?
>Supplies? Which supplies? Coke for the crematoria?
Not all the crematoria were coke fired.
>Zyklon B to fumigate clothing and barracks? These were
>common items to which you assign a sinister definition.
>Ventilators? Also common in morgues or areas disinfested.
Gas tight doors and places to poor in poison is not typical.
[snip]
>> No, they were being exterminated. Even Eichmann admitted that Jews
>> were sent to concentration camps and killed. Even Höss testified that
>> he expected 20% to 30% of a transport to be useful for work. The rest
>> were exterminated or gassed. He used the word gassed, I believe.
>
>Again you rely on “testimony”. That will not do, I
>am afraid. What we need is proof to verify the
>accusations, however much you stomp your little
>feet and curl your little toes.
The testimony matches that of other people who had never met. The
testimony goes with the blue prints, the orders of supplies, the
testimony by both the inmates and the Germans, the letters, the
diaries, and the remains of crematoriums of such a vast number that
boggles the mind.
Another masterful retort:
>You, again? ROTFL……
>>
>> >Instead, I will ask you to do
>> >> something which you have not done so far and that is to give an
>> >> explanation of the railway records which accounts for the following:
>> >>
>> >> 1) an authentic minutes that describes a plan to work Jews to death
>> >> and deal with the rest
>> >
>> >Answered this. The Wannsee conference did not mention the killing of
>> >Jews as was attested to by some of the participants decades later.
>>
>> Really. Who? Please keep it in context.
Another brilliant retort with no answer to the question.
>You are as well informed as I am on the subject.
>Stop playing coy.
[snip]
>> Then they burned the bodies in huge pits.
>
>When the crematoria broke down. One couldn’t very
>well leave cadavers lying around for weeks on end after
>the unfortunate people had died from disease contracted
>during epidemics, could they?
>
Sure in a camp that had a capacity of 130,000 max and transports
totally well over a million in one year, we are told that the rest
died from an epidemic that seem to not effect the SS in any big way.
We are to believe thatb the Germans knew the epidemic was coming so
they built these huge crematorium in advance. This suggests another
kind of cruelty, doesn’t it Mr. Blackmore. Insufficient sewage
disposal and the general allowance of unsanitation among people the
Germans didn’t think of as human was a contributing factor to typhus.
Typhus tends to know no boundaries and doesn’t care what nationality a
human being is. This would alarm the Germans themselves and it did
alarm the surrounding civilian population. They did find that the
civilian population tended to bring in the disease when they came to
work in the camps.
All that hair that was found to contain HCN. All those baby carriages
shipped to the Reich. All that unopened luggage found in store houses.
All the gold teeth. The enormous number of Krematorium at on
particular camp rather than in the main camp. Mr. Blackmore is
becoming a simple troll with his response above.
All testimony is via troture, all the survivors are lying, all the
documentation is forged (despite the cooperation that would have to be
obtained among different nations and people 1000s of miles apart), all
is made up. He hasn’t yet told us why this would be necessary. But
I’ll bet it’s some kind of conspiracy. I suppose Mr. Blackmore will
have to tell us all why.
>> >These refer to gas chambers for delousing and bodies which had died
>> >from disease or old age, etc.
>>
>> No proof offerred.
>
>There is more than enough proof. Refer to the
>death books.
The death books did not record those who were gassed. Eichmann, Höss
and others testified to this fact.
>> >> 4) a document which orders that the accounting of prisoner property
>> >> cease just at the time that the mass murder of inmates is alleged to
>> >> have begun
>> >
>> >Taking property for the war effort is not the same as taking lives.
>> >This is apparently a coincidence.
>>
>> No documentation offerred just Mr. Blackmore’s tiring opinions.
>
>However, we are waiting for your proof that people
>were murdered.
It’s been done Mr. Blackmore to the satisfaction of the world
community. You have the burden of proof. We do not need to redo work
that has been done by the court systems, and historians. The Germans
themselves admitted their murders. Some blamed their superiors. Even
Höss was frankly more honest than you.
From [email protected] Wed Oct 30 18:02:51 PST 1996
Article: 77862 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: “Der Stuermer”-Hitler’s Favorite Mag?
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:37:34 GMT
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[email protected] (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>”Annie Alpert, OFB” <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Geez, Kaufmann was just responding in anger to a book that called for
>>killing Jews (Germnay Must Live, Roth). While The Jews didn’t have a
>>chance to act out any of Kaufmann’s projections, Germany actually
>>carried out a good deal of Mr. Roths.
>
>First of all, are you SURE you aren’t confused with yet another confessional anti-goyim
>book called “Jews Must Live” by a Samuel Roth? (Otherwise just a coincidence and
>nevermind).
>
>Secondly, I’m going to post that it was the intent by the Jews of POWER to
destroy
>Germany, that sentiments expressed by several Jews such as Kaufmann weren’t idle
>diatribes.
>
Annie, you are dealing with with a cypher here. Jews of Power! That’s
a great line, isn’t it. Brings back memories of nutballs who think
there is something real about the _Protocols_.
From [email protected] Thu Oct 31 06:50:23 PST 1996
Article: 77911 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:38:57 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <325d7e83.4204[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<325e6c0[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<32738[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Th1s1s Aforgery) wrote:
> He has a great price on Ball’s Air Photo Evidence. You should get a copy.
I already have a copy, Mr. Giwer.
From [email protected] Fri Nov 1 09:09:34 PST 1996
Article: 78063 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: One More Time: Holocaust Proof
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:03:48 GMT
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Greg Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>Kathleen Mulhern wrote:
>>
>> I’ll try this one more time, and since I have already included portions of
>> this book in responses and they have, mysteriously, never recieved a
>> reply, I’ll try it this one last time:
>>
>> The book: _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_. The authors: Deborah Dwork
>> and Robert Jan van Pelt. The publisher:W.W. Norton & Company, Inc., 500
>> Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10110. Copyright 1996 by the authors.
>>
>> Page 222: “Design of a Degesch Zyklon B gas chamber. Osobyi Archive,
>> Moscow, coll. 502/1, file 322. The tin with Zyklon B (5) is opened by a
>> lever (3) connected to a tin opener (4); the Zyklon B crystals fall on a
>> tray (6) and are heated by a hot-air blower (9) to facilitate
>> evaporation.”
>> (snip)
>
>Interesting description of the introduction of gas in a delousing
>chamber, but unfortunately this contradicts so-called testimonies of how
>the Zyklon B was introduction into the alleged homicidal gas chambers.
>
Mr. Raven will say that there are contradictions but he fails to give
any references or details concerning his assertions.
>We know the delausing chambers existed, and we know how they functioned.
>We are still awaiting proof of the existence of a Nazi gas chamber for
>homicidal purposes.
>
What kind of proof is Mr. Raven willing to accept?
From [email protected] Fri Nov 1 09:09:35 PST 1996
Article: 78093 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 13:35:58 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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<325e6c0[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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<327619FB.6B43@kaiwan.com> <[email protected]>
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[email protected] (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
posted/emailed
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Mike Curtis wrote:
>> >
>> > Greg Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >This response ignores the fact that the Allies were intercepting Nazi
>> > >communications from Auschwitz (and elsewhere), and so compiled their own
>> > >reports that the Nazis could not have destroyed. These reports do not
>> > >show massive numbers of Jews (or anyone else) being murdered at
>> > >Auschwitz or elsewhere.
>> > >
>> > Is this one of your stop overs to sell books and other material? I
>> > notice that you drop by here and make unsupported statements and then
>> > when cornered you vanish. Thre months later you return after the
>> > memory cells of your cohorts have burned out you start over.
>> > Fascinating, Mr. Raven.
>>
>> Thanks for engaging in another personal attack, instead of dealing with
>> the issues.
>
>_What_ issues, Mr. Raven? You’ve presented nothing but unsubstantiated
>assertions. Perhaps is you were to SUPPORT your claims with EVIDENCE and
>FACTS there might be some issues to discuss?
>
Someone needs to tell me how this is a personal attack. It is exactly
what he is doing. In fact, in another thread he lists a whole set of
books available from IHR. Describing what Mr. Raven does is hardly a
personal attack, but e reference to his repeated behavior.
>> For better or worse, I don’t have the time to devote to
>> a.r., unlike some of you.
>
>Yet you feel perfectly at ease with making rssh and unsubstantiated (not
>to mention fallacious) assertions? And when after you make such assertions
>you flee? You don’t see a problem with this? Interesting.
>
Yup, and I see that Mark sees the same thing.
>> Furthermore, there seems to be something wrong with the delivery of news
>at my
>> ISP, as it sometimes takes 5 minutes to post a single message. It is often
>> more trouble than it is worth.
>
>Uh huh. The ol’ “My ISP ate my homework” excuse. A favorite among deniers
>it seems.
>
I was really choked up about it too.
>> If, on the other hand, the above message was simply your way of asking
>> for a citation, I direct you to “The Hoax of the Twentieth Century,” by
>> Arthur Butz.
>
>Butz? Uh huh. <rolling eyes> And my I direct you do the door, Mr. Raven?
>Don’t let it hit you on the butt on the way out….
>
Well, I have Butz and Mr. Raven knows it. That might be why he didn’t
provide a proper citation. Page numbers are always a part of a
citation. I guess he didn’t want to look the fool in the ensuing
discussion. It wouldn’t have mattered much for he would have
disappeared for a time anyway. At least rblackmore and Ehrlich stuck
around long enough to look stupid. Mr. Giwer and Mr. Moran are always
stupid so mostly remain unread.
From [email protected] Fri Nov 1 09:09:35 PST 1996
Article: 78094 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: HateWatch : New address – hatewatch.org
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 13:38:23 GMT
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Bill Bickel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> G.RAVEN at 03:02 EST
>>
>>This is not to say that he was perfect,
>> but [Hitler] was about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.
>
>You know… In a truly perverse sense, Raven is right: Look at Germany
>before WW2 and Germany now. What happened in between? A hateful
>meglomaniac takes over and tries to conquer the world. Without Hitler,
>perhaps Germany would be Romania today.
>
How do you figure this?
From [email protected] Fri Nov 1 09:09:36 PST 1996
Article: 78096 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis’s “Gas Chambers”
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 13:51:29 GMT
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Greg Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>This is nonsensical. The Germans had delousing chambers,
Yes they did.
> which would
>have been difficult to use as homicidal gas chambers
No one is saying that they did. This is pretty nonspecific Mr. Raven
since there are delousing chambers in Dachau and a gas chamber meant
for humans proper. The question with historian concerns the matter of
its use.
[snipped an argument that goes away because of the above point]
>Perhaps Mr. Ferree could inform us of the source of his knowledge on
>this point, not only because he contradicts the authorities currently in
>charge of Dachau, but also because he has in the past wavered on this
>point of whether or not there were homicidal gas chambers at Dachau.
>
I won’t. For I’ve seen pictures of both the delousing chambers and the
gas chamber that may or may not have been used.
>For that matter, I would like to know when Mr. Ferree arrived at Dachau,
>as his previous explanations leave something to be desired, in that his
>timeline does not match the known timeline of the “liberation” of
>Dachau.
>
So now Mr. Raven insinuates that Mr. Ferree is a liar and he does it
without providing substantiation to his accusation. I guess this is
where Mr. Raven runs away. Mr. Raven should be aware that at this
point all communications shall be replied to in Usenet unless the
nature of the communication has nothing to do with our discussions
here.
>I have no doubt that Mr. Ferree could have been at Dachau, but based on
>his claims about goings-on there, he would have had to arrive sometime
>before the camp was liberated in order to possess this knowledg.
>
Based on what, Mr. Raven. It would seem that you were there around the
same time (but after) as Mr. Ferree to make this accusation.
From [email protected] Mon Oct 21 12:48:04 PDT 1996
Article: 76191 of alt.revisionism
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From: [email protected] (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bimko on the Bum
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:04:45 GMT
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