Thanks to Alexander Baron, who revised the text (my English is not perfect)
and gave me several suggestions for this FAQ and the 2 pages that follow.
1.0 U.S Gas chambers, how it works
2.0 Auschwitz gas chambers
3.0 The gassing procedure
4.0 Ferro-cyanides traces
5.0 The stupidity of the method
6.0 Question related to the morgues
7.0 Leuchter dishonest?
1.0 US gas chambers
Zyklon B is not used in American gas chambers, mainly because it requires too much time to drive the gas from the inert carrier. The method is to generate
the gas on site by chemical reactions of sodium cyanide and 18 % of sulphuric
acid. At the time of use, the HCN is already vaporised and is released through
valves into the gas chambers. The door is gasketed with a single pressure seal.
Because the chamber contains such a lethal gas, it is operated at a negative
pressure to guarantee that any leak would be inward. The pressurised system
also insures a quick evacuation of the gas through the top of the chamber and
an exhaust stack is normally require to avoid serious health problems around.
Walls are of welded steel construction or of plastic PVC. After an execution,
it is preferable to wash the walls carefully to avoid residual emissions. During
the execution, a mechanical system is required to distribute the gas quickly in
the chamber (1).
This technology has existed since the 1920s, but actually, it has been almost
abandoned since it’s a too complex and costly method. It’s also dangerous for
the executioners. The first considerations which led to this system was the
wrong belief that it could give a more ‘humane’ death, without pain, but later
it was establish that this was not true.
2.0 Auschwitz gas chambers
It’s sometimes difficult to describe the Auschwitz gas chambers: most of the
books on that topic talk about gas chambers without describing the mechanism
they were suppose to have used. There are very, very few photos of the alleged
gas chambers of Krema 2 and 3, even though the buildings are still there (but
not totally intact). Some eyewitness claimed that showers were used to introduce
Zyklon B (a gas lighter than the air) while others talked about SS men throwing
cans of Zyklon B into the chamber. Actually, there are roof vents on the top of
Krema 2 at Auschwitz, and the Auschwitz Museum claims they were there before
the Russians captured the camp. (The Communist authorities allowed any visitor
to come there after 1958). In this version, Zyklon B was poured from those roof
vents in a metallic wiremesh. However, Hoess, in his ‘memoirs’, describes it as
follows (2)
“The extermination process in Auschwitz took place as follows:
Jews selected for gassing were taken as quietly as possible to
the crematoria, the men being separated from the women. In the
undressing room, prisoners of the special detachment, detailed
for this purpose, would tell them in their own language that they
were going to be bathed and deloused, that they must leave their
clothes neatly together and above all remember where they had put
them, so that they would be able to find them again quickly after
delousing. The prisoners of the special detachment had the great-
est interest in seeing that the operation proceeded smoothly and
quickly. After undressing, the Jews went into the gas chambers,
which were furnished with showers and water pipes and gave a
realistic impression of a bath house….The door would now be
quickly screwed up and the gas immediately discharged by the
waiting disinfectors through vents in the ceilings of the gas
chambers, down a shaft that led to the floor. This ensured the
rapid distribution of the gas…It can be said that about one-
third died straight away…The door was opened half an hour after
the induction of the gas, and the ventilation switched on.” from
pages 223-4 (Appendix 1).
There was no fan for either Krema 4 or Krema 5 in the story. This one is sup-
posed to have exisex for Kremas 2 and 3 only, despite a project for the
installation of an evantual ventilation system for krema 5 tardivelly is
discussed in another book but there’s no doubt that Hoess talk here
about those 2 main kremas. According to Rudolph Hoess in his memoirs we can
thus conclude that the Germans were opening the door and
then used the fan to spread…the gas in all the crematoria building!
In A.T.O, page 258, a drawing of the eyewitness David Olere shows pellets
wich were spread on the floor and Pressac comments that: It can be entirely
fictive or based on what the artist saw, anyway this picture is the only one
wich show a homicidal gassing.
The walls are of mortar and bricks, there are no gaskets to isolate the
alleged homicidal room, no distribution system, no pressurised system neither,
no mechanical constructions (pipes or other) which are used in a normal gas
chamber.
3.0 The gassing procedure:
The first mass gassing of Jews is supposed to have occur out of
Bikernau, in 2 little farmhouses converted for the sake of mass killing. It
was a total absurdity to reship the Jews from Bikernau there rather than to
shot them on the spot. The reason why the legend was built around those 2
farmhouses is simply that it was judged as preferable to use Kramer’s diary
as a starting base to draw the main elements of the story. In the first part
of the legend, pellets were allegedly throw in the house through a hole in
the wall (3). Since Zyklon B (according to the manufacturer) sticks adheres
strongly to surfaces and that the special disinfection team needed to wait
20 hours after use before entering a normal room without a gas mask (4),
then the removal of bodies immediately afterwards would be extremely difficult
if we rely on the Hoess memoirs. In this biography, the ex-commandant of
Auschwitz stated explicitely that the Sonderkommando were eating and smoking
while they were working (ie without gas masks). However, if we consider someone
who would be equipped with a heavy gas mask, the removal wouldn’t be easy
neither. In the case of the so-called gas chambers, HCN could adhere to the
walls, the ceilling, the corpses but much more to the hairs of hundreds of
victims before being released gradually. In the case of the 2 farmhouse of
1942 also, the remaining pellets on the ground would be a danger for the Son
derkommandos if they had to accomplish their task without any delay.
There is an interesting remark here: Degesh facilities, those small rooms
which were used by the Germans for disinfecting clothes, were equipped with
exhaust stacks and systems to heat the gas in pipes before re-injecting it
into the room: they wanted to avoid condensation on walls. But nothing like
that exists in the ‘homicidal gas chambers’, less developed technologically.
4.0 Ferro-cyanide traces:
The Revisionist claim is that since delousing chambers (Degesh facilities)
contain up to 1,000 times more ferro-cyanide traces on the walls than ‘homicide
gas chambers’ in the Leuchter original samples than there was no mass gassing of
Jews and the mortuaries where few cyanide compounds were found had just been
disinfected once during the war. It might be said here that the original claim
of the anti-Revisionist (Raul Hilberg) was that most of the Zyklon B was used
for killing people according to ‘reliable sources’, but since Leuchter’s fin-
dings in 1988 the Holocaust lobby decided to adopt a new version (Pressac)
where more than 95% of the Zyklon B was use for disinfections.
Although Revisionists are more interested in the ferro-cyanide traces
(Prussian blue) which forms a stable element, the Cracow team and their
sleeping partner (the Auschwitz Museum) decided to play on the confusion
that may exist with potassium cyanide which is, indeed, soluble in water
and the ferro-cyanide. The claim that acid rain could have washed cyanide
away compounds is true for potassium cyanide, but not for ferro-cyanide
compounds. An excellent rebuttal of the Nizkor argument can be found on:
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/- (Page doesn`t exist)
under the section Journal of Historical
Review , Winter 1992-93, Volume Twelve, Number 4, especially the article
by Paul Grubach: The Leuchter Report Vindicated.
The Revisionist interpretation of the minor traces of ferro-cyanide pig-
mentation on the ‘gas chamber’ walls is that the entire building was probably
evacuated once or twice during the war to be disinfected. Such traces were
found on other rooms which were not supposed to be either gas chambers or
Degesh facilities (for example, the washroom of Krema 1) and the level were
comparable. The conclusion is thus that those buildings were just disinfected.
Since lice was the reason for the typhus epidemics, one can expect the lice
to quit the hairs of the bodies and invade the buildings where several persons
were working, so there’s nothing abnormal with the hypothesis that the Germans
disinfected the mortuaries with Zyklon B.
If someone claims that Leuchter falsified the samples of the washroom, then
it might be asked why he planted a sample with few cyanide compounds for the
gas chamber rather than a sample with no cyanide compound. One of Leuchter’s
suggestion after his findings was to allow a neutral international commission
that could solve the problem forever with a transparent and open inquiry,
but as usual the Holocaust lobby did not follow the suggestion and preferred,
after 7 years only, to use his own usual commission rather than a mixed team
with pure random samples.
Another argument is that the disinfection was taking 10 to 20 hours while
the gassing of people was taking just 10 to 30 minutes. In that case, it is
claimed that it’s not surprising to find far less ferro-cyanide compounds on
the walls of the ‘gas chambers’. This argument is not responding to the fact
that the level of cyanide between the ‘gas chamber’ of Krema 1 and the washroom
of the same building are comparable. Moreover, things do not work that way in
real life: the physical absorption of a gas by a surface is a very quick process.
Some experiments were conducted on the adsorption of gases by solids: what they
show, mainly, is that most of the gases are absorbed within a few minutes at 0
degrees Celsius on charcoal. (5) There is a saturation level for the solids,
over which you can’t expect to see more gas to be absorbed by it (adsorption
is the word used rather than absorption for such a process). Experiments were
conducted on oxygen, nitric oxide, CO, nitrogen, etc…: the conclusion was
that an average of 80% was adsorbed within 15 minutes while 20% was adsorbed
in the reminding 72 hours of the experience (5).
In that case, chemical adsorption is coming right after the physical adsor-
ption, but due to the time that is necessary for the gas to be released by a
surface, it is wrong to say that a gassing over ’10 hours’ will create 20
times more compounds than a gassing over 30 minutes. Some HCN molecules will
react with iron if the microscopic conditions are favourable at a moment,
the others will be released.
5.0 The stupidity of the method
The best way to kill people is not to transport them over 1,000 kilometres
with all the cost involves and to put them in those ‘gas chambers’ but to shoot
them on site. The reason for which the gas chamber story was used in connection
with Zyklon B can be found in one of Hilberg’s books: he shows proof over many
pages (mainly Zyklon B invoices) that Zyklon B was produced in Germany, and
carried to Auschwitz. No one contests that Zyklon B was used at Auschwitz to
eliminate lice which were bringing typhus into the camp, even on the anti-Revi-
sionist side: there’s too much proof of that. It was essential at Nuremberg to
maximise the proofs and minimise the risk with the use of such documents for
which a dual interpretation is necessary: Zyklon B was use to disinfect clothes
and fight typhus epidemics which were killing Jewish manpower, but Zyklon B was
also used to liquidate them.
6.0 Questions related to the morgues.
A couple of years ago, Jean-Claude Pressac brought forth a new version of
the story in which the absence of details and schemas about gas chambers in
the documentation seased in the hands of the Germans was not due to an official
Nazi policy to ‘keep the secret’ but to the fact that the mortuaries were transf-
ormed by technicians in gas chambers late. The question is quite simple: if 200
to 300 people died from ordinary death (epidemies) in Auschwitz each day, where
did the Germans put the bodies of those peoples before to cremate them?
The morgues of Krema 2 and 3 were there to receive bodies before their cre-
mation, 30 ovens for those 2 buildings were insufficient to reduce to ashes all
the corpses immediately. But the Jews who were dying from epidemics didn’t stop
dying after the transformation of the mortuaries into gas chambers, so where
did they put them? Was the truck bringing one body at a time from the hospital
afterwards? Or were they piled up outside while dozens to hundreds of civilians
were working at the camp, without counting the SS families who were visiting
the camp? ‘Scuze us, that’s because of our secret gas chambers that we are
coding in our documents’.
Does it mean that the Jews who had to walk to those crematories were allowed
to see hundreds of corpses near the crematoria even though the German intention
was to ‘fool’ them? If this is the case, one could expect that the same Sonder-
kommandos who allegedly brought the corpses from the ‘gas chambers’ to the
ovens were also in charge of the disposal of those other bodies. Unfortunately,
their tales do not mention this interesting problem.
7.0 Leuchter, dishonest?
The main argument which was developed against Leuchter is that he’s not an
engineer. In this case, experience is more important than an academic training.
He has worked several years for the American Navy and the American Air Force,
creating equipment for civil and military applications. He has patents in do-
mains like optics, meteorology, navigation, etc. He has already been described
by a penitentiary director as a highly competent consultant(6). He knows what
he’s talking about, even though he can, like anyone, make mistakes. In Massa-
chusetts, only a fraction of the engineers have licences (I think it’s 5,000
out of 50,000) and there is no legislation about the specific topic of ‘gas
chambers’. In such a case, Leuchter was the only one of the 50,000 engineers
who was prosecuted, after his report: this is not because he used false repre-
sentation, this is simply because he was victimised.
(1) The first Leuchter report
(2) COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ: The authentic confessions of a mass
murderer, by Rudolf Hoess, Introduction by Lord Russell of Liver-
pool, Pan paperback edition, (1961).
(3) Kremmer’s diary
(4) NI-9912
(5) Absorption Of Gases By Solids, by McBain, published by George Routledge
& Sons, London, (1932), page 124.
(6) See the same issue of the Journal of Historical Review issue at
the IHR
From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 40664 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prima Facie Extermination
Date: 30 May 1996 02:04:23 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne70.vir.com
[email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> BUT THERE IS PROOF OF AN EXTERMINATION POLICY, PEOPLE, RIGHT UNDER YOUR
> NOSE
>
> 1) The Wannsee Protocols state clearly that all of the Jews of Europe
> must be gathered, and split into single sex work gangs, whereby a number
> may be expected to perish from natural causes, and then we have to think
> really hard about letting the survivors go, because they will represent
> the hardiest element [this is a paraphrase, but an accurate paraphrase].
> Now, this may not be a plan for extermination outright, but I don’t see
> how anyone can say that it is not a plan for ultimate extermination for,
> if not all, then certainly, most of the Jews who fall under Nazi control.
> As far as “proof of extermination” goes, this is good enough for me.
> Comments?
>
> Monsieur Beaulieu dismisses the document. Sorry, not this one. I will
> grant that there is a high probability that some black propaganda slipped
> into the records, but if someone wanted to hoax the Wannsee Conference
> they would not have been as ambiguous or as incomplete as the above.
>
I dismissed it for several reasons, first of all I would say that
since it bears no signature and it is a typewritten document it
was easy to forge it. Second we never eared about the Jews who were
drives to USSR in 2 separates columns, but Staeglich made some
good comments on other aspects that are weird.
Your main argument is top say that if it was a forged document
than the hoaxers would have write something clear and net,
extermination-extermination-extermination everywhere.
It wasn’t an intelligent approach. Tons of documents, correspondance,
letters, telegrams, high level documents signed were talking
about the final solution as a programm of expulsion. There’s
no credible explanation that was giving up to now about the reason
that could have push the German to use this ‘coding terminology’.
My belief is simple: it wasn’t possible to forge tons of documents
with the appropriate signature, to much risky, but ambiguous
documents were offer to decrypt all the others. If those documents
had speak ony about an extermination policy, than their role as
a ‘key’ for decryption would be impossible. I consider simply that the
hoaxers though that the safiest approach was to forge few documents
but to use a mix terminology extermination-evacuation in those ones.
Because it was their role to serve as a decryption key.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 7 12:45:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41655 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: 3 Jun 1996 23:59:36 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne71.vir.com
I remember this scene that I saw 15 years ago in the sery ‘Holocaust’:
A red cross delegation was brough in the vicinity of Auschwitz (well
I don’t remember everything well) and they were show a fake camp were
the Jews were living well, a place were there was a barber shop, stores,
beautifull garden, and the red Cross delegation which was duped by the
SS. Back those days, I didn’t know that there was no possible secret
for Auschwitz and I believed that this movie was reporting anything else
than propaganda.
It is say also that in Treblinka the Germans used a fake design to
fool the Jews, etc…
I’ve see a dumb guy on another newsgroup recently who claimed proudly
that the Nizkor leadrers were promothing freedom of speech. Those who
have observe here how they defend systematically any of the lobbyist
who promote censorship (claiming that they do not) or how McVay try in
advance to justify the deportation of Ernest Zundel have a good idea
about what exist behind the fake design.
This fool who talked proudly about the Blue Ribbon campain didn’t seem
to have a good sense of observation. I’ve check the websites to which
they built a cross link, and it is quite funny. I’ve not read all their
stuff, but an important part of it and one could think that there’s no
effort to eliminate revisionnist sites. The American Civil Liberties
Union present several cases, but I didn’t see anything on revisionnism.
One can become a member of this organization and receive emails about
the current issues. However, what they defend generally is dummy issues.
Example: we could believe that there’s a major threath against cultural
elements by rightist bigots, and we are propose an exhaustive list of
sites that ‘could be banned’, perhaps hundreds, because they present
sculptures, medical anatomic descriptions (scientific), or notorious
classics (Twain, etc…) evidently, the biggots have not such a power
and there’s no risk to see those site being banned. I have VERY serious
doubt that even the playboy site could be submit to censorship a day, not
only because rightist associations have few power but also because
there’s so much money involve with half of internet users that such
a thing as no chance to happen except for some specific elements,
pedophily, etc…
At another site we learn how our private life is systematicly violated
when we visit a web site, how they can determine which kind of computer
we are using, how much frequent we visit a site, the files we access,
how much longer ,etc… Terrifiant! Big brother is checking us…
After 2 hours of systematic scan across those files I didn’t find what
I wanted: one can take a look at those sites and check by himself,
revisionnism (‘hate speech’) is certanly not in danger. It doesn’t
exist perhaps. True , Ernest Zundel have ask once to banned Schindler’s
list because it was hate propaganda against the Germans. I agree with
him: it is. But I don’t believe this was a good idea, I can’t deny
to someone else what he deny to me. But isn’t the Nizkor leaders
like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
shut up some of the guys they don’t like (Giwer among other) with
pressures? Fortunatelly there’s a lot of providers.
I ‘ve visit those sites, and discover that there was, beyond the false
story of fake barber shop in the Holocaust, real fake barber shops.
From [email protected] Sun Jun 9 10:24:36 PDT 1996
Article: 42048 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 6 Jun 1996 02:55:46 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <2JUN199618085[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne1.vir.com
[email protected] (John Morris) wrote:
>
> On 4 Jun 1996 16:23:57 -0400, [email protected] (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >I think Tom misunderstands Nizkor’s purpose. It is an all-purpose
> >archive. As such, it is invaluable (the only thing it lacks is a cross
> >link to the other side, _they_ always cross link Nizkor.)
>
> Au contraire: Nizkor links to several denier sites from its page at
>
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/other-sites/promotion-denial.html –(Page doesn`t exist)
>
Seriously, NIZKOR is so huge that I’m not surprise that he got
the same impression than me: 99% of the peoples who visit nizkor will
miss that possibility while Zundel allow the link to your
site on each of his page. From the topic ‘other sites’, even
there it is not obvious for an almost neutral guy like Ehrlich
From [email protected] Tue Jun 11 15:11:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42600 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: 10 Jun 1996 22:57:36 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne44.vir.com
[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
> Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
> Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
> declared war on Germany. There you have the way it is always
> presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
> But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
> Poland. But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
> declared war on Germany and not Russia. What is the explanation
> for this? If England’s reason for declaring war upon Germany was
> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
>
Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades
but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I
know why, but I’ll keep this one in my bilological hard drive.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 12 10:37:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42725 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: 4 Jun 1996 23:25:04 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne16.vir.com
[email protected] (tom moran) wrote:
> “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp”
>
> “Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando who
> had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the icy
> paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
> know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
> help. Bacon remembers the ‘”Aryan”‘ kapo Jozef Ilezuk–a teacher who
> allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
> an empty gas chamber.”
>
Yups, seems that the carbonized flesh around the bones have now
turned into ashes.
From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43963 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still waiting John…
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:01:03 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne15.vir.com
For those who are not aware, I was talking about the
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar42.html – (Page doesn`t exist)
And you can’t say that I’m still repeating on the same aspect John…
From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43964 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:16:33 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com
[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Orest Slepokura regurgitated Nazi propaganda from the
> “Institute of Historical Review,” http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/ihr/:-(Page doesn`t exist)
l the false witness had some bad luck. Forced to choose from
> >among several Allied war propaganda lies, he chose to defend the fire lie
> >instead of the boiling water, gassing, or electrocution lies. In 1956,
> >when he published his testimony in Yiddish, the fire lie was still alive
> >in certain circles. This lie is the origin of the term Holocaust. Today
> >there is no longer a single historian who believes that Jews were burned
> >alive. The myths of the boiling water and of electrocution have also
> >disappeared. Only the gas remains.
>
> Mr. Faurisson, I note, has not listed the historians who have
> written that no Jews were burned alive. I, however, know of a
> good many who, writing long after 1956, said precisely what
> Mr. Wiesel said: That Jews were indeed burned alive. Mr.
> Faurisson is, therefore, lying.
>
Well, Mr McVay, as you know I’m not a professional historian despite
I could say that the reading of 70 or 80 books on this topic in 3 years
is not negligeable neither. Nowhere I remember to have read a story
similar to Wiesel’s story in the most important books that were published
over the last 25 years. My memory can be faulty here, but really I
don’t remember. Since your claim is that Faurisson lied when he said
that this story was drop a while ago, that you know several historians
who talks about peoples who were burned alive, I would like you to
give
a) their name
b) the book and the page where it is written
c) if they have a degree in history
d) the date of the first publication
Be carefull: I don’t want a tale from an obscure Holocaust survivor
who say that 2 persons were throw alive in a crematory oven. The story
that is offer by Wiesel is that the Jews were burn alive outside by
bunch of hundreds or thousands upon arrival (at _Auschwitz_).
Since your main argument is to say that Faurisson is a liar when he say
that this story was drop a while ago, you wouldn’t have any objection
to document your claim for this specific aspect of Auschwitz with a book
that was published in the last 25 years. Wiesel was ship to Auschwitz,
and Faurisson claimed that his story is a lie because the historians
have drop this story for a while. With your accusation, I’m expecting
you to bring a relevant reference for Auschwitz.
If you fail to respond directly, you can be sure that I’ll keep track of
that. Your honnor is on the pan of the balance Ken: I hope for you that
a fly will alight on the other pan soon.
Post and email to Ken McVay
From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43965 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Still waiting John…
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:17:55 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com
Well, this one is for John Morris…
I asked you a question few days ago, and I’m still waiting for a response:
The first time, you said that this canadian law about the coffin ashes
was an error and that you asked to replace it. Right after, in ‘error
after error’, I said:
>>Question 42:
>><p>For example, Lagace is bound by law not to mix or comingle
>>the ashes of one deceased person with those of
>>another. Lagace and the IHR forget that two or three emaciated corpses
>>could be inserted into each "muffle." This would, of course,
>>never be done in a civilian, commercial establishment.
> The problem is that I doubt strongly that a law state that the ashes
> of a person must not be mixed with those of another person: unless
> you bring the text of the law and the way to find it in a book…
So I’m not talking about the original ‘error’ here but the second
one. Does you silence here mean that this law about the mix of
ashes between different deceased persons is also fictive?
Post and email to John Morris
From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:14 PDT 1996
Article: 43966 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Censorship and Nizkor, Giwer: a global response
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:05:43 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com
I’ve just spend few days in New York and with 22 emails in my box,
I think it’s preferable for me to respond to J.Morris, M.P.Stein and
J. McCarthy about the ‘Giwer issue’ in a single message.
First, in ‘a real fake barber shop’, the reference to censorship from
Jamie McCarthy and Morris against Matt Giwer was a small sentence
in the whole message. I’ve already explain how it happened: I’m not checking
all the messages here, and I wasn’t there apparently when M. Giwer posted 13(?)
times the wannsee minutes. I remembered to have catch randomly a message of
J. Morris where he gave a public duplicata of his complain to Matt Giwer’s
provider and where he said that students in Alberta couldn’t access the
newsserver and alt.revisionism because the system was overload. Since Matt
Giwer is posting a lot of messages here, I assumed that they were refering
to his normal output, and J. Morris told me a couple of days ago that his
letter asked to not expell Matt Giwer but to give him a warning about the
Wansee minute. I don’t know if the private part was identical, but since I’ve
no proof of the contrary I will assume that it was. Now I’ve receive several
email from M.P. Stein where he talks about mail bombing and other things.
I’m not aware if Matt Giwer did mail bombing and if so, if he did it in
retaliation to mail bombing directed against him. We are now entering into
details where I can hardly judge and this is why I prefer to not continue
on that. I’ve read quickly something from J.Morris a couple of weeks ago,
Matt Giwer who was complaining about that and I figure he’s the guy who
is more able to talk for himself. I said recently that I ‘halfly apologize’,
because I wasn’t aware about all the details, and ‘hafly’ here is simply
there because I’m not accustom to trust entirelly your statements, John.
It seems that M.P. Stein came back on that and ask me to retract. What
more is need now? I believe that some Nizkor leaders are in favor of
censorship, and I’ve not to retract about this. I’ve no formal proof
actually, but you can be sure that I’ll pay more attention in the future
to grab such evidence if it is present in some occasions. There’s
half-evidence that I mentionned previously in ‘a fake barber shop’,
the remaining of the stuff. I’ve not to apologize for a belief that I
consider as the correct one.
In this case, some emails from M.P. Stein didn’t appear yet publically
and I can’t talk about it till I won’t see Matt Giwer’s response.
Post and email to M.P. Stein, J. MacCarthy
From [email protected] Mon Jun 17 07:38:16 PDT 1996
Article: 43998 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Medical Experiments: Freezing, I
Date: 17 Jun 1996 02:07:10 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne60.vir.com
[email protected] (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
> Report by SS-Untersturmfuehrer Rascher about intense cooling experiments
> in Dachau concentration camps, 10 September 1942
> [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals –
> Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 220]
> ———————————————————————–
> The experimental subjects were placed in the water, dressed in complete
> flying uniform, winter or summer combination, and with an aviator’s
> helmet. A life jacket made out of rubber kapok was to prevent
> submerging. The experiments were carried out at water temperatures
> varying from from 2.5 to 12 Centigrade. In one experimental series,
> the occiput (brain stem) protruded above the water, while in another
> series of experiments the occiput (brain stem) and back of the head
> were submerged in water.
>
> Electrical measurements gave low temperature readings of 26.4 in the
> stomach and 26.5 in the rectum. Fatalities occurred only when the
> brain stem and the back of the head were also chilled. Autopsies of
> of such fatal cases always revealed large amounts of free blood, up
> to one-half litter, in the cranial cavity.
This one is one of the *rare* articles from you which is based
on something else than the SS confessions of pseudo-crimes in
the climat of terror that was prevailing after the war in the
NMT procedures where irregularities occured on an almost systematic
base. I was aware about those experiments, but I didn’t know that
the SS wrote about it in their documents.
Here we have an accurate example of what happened in a totalitarian
state: few price for human life, especially those who are consider
as an inferior race, and experiments that where conducted not
by pure sadism but because the Nazi stated tried to find by
experimentations how to spare the life of the pilots who fall
in La Manche (between england and france) and how to resist
to climatic difficulties in cold water.
Nothing to do with the caricatural picture of the ‘German beast’
who were torturing on a large scale without any purpose,
just for the fun, but a real fact about a cold calculus where
the western ‘ethical’ had little weight. The allied did their crimes,
but the Nazi were not angels neither. What I find interesting here
is that the same state which is suppose to have adopt specific
carefull (and fishy) measures to not leave any trace of the crime
with gas chambers didn’t try to destroy those records for Dachau.
Guess why.
From [email protected] Tue Jun 18 22:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 44384 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Jahrling document
Date: 18 Jun 1996 02:54:37 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com
The preferate document of D. Keren is the Jahrling document, something
allegedly written by a SS name Jahrling who claimed that the crematoria
capacities in Auscwitz-Birkenau was 4,756 corpses in 24 hours of operations
(28 june, 1943). I’ve already give some reasons why I thought it was a
forgery. Since I had an opportunity to take a look at A.T.O. again recently,
I was able to make some interesting comparisons:
On pages 223-224, 2 letters from Jahrling about coke consumption are
reproduces: (documents 32 et 33). The references given are:
P.M. BW/3034 page 68
P.M BW 30/34 P54
When I compared those 2 signatures, they were identical for those
2 genuine documents, but totally different from the signature that appear
on the famous document that claim 4,756 corpses a day!
Morever, the circunstances about the discovery of this ‘document’ are
a bit nebulous:
>Jahrling BW 30/42 2 pages
> letter of the 28 th june 1943 from the Auschwitz Bauleitung to the WVHA-SS
> in Berlin concerning the cremation capacity of the five krematorien at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> photocopy transmitted on 15 th may 1981 to the curator of the Auschwitz
> Museum by the committee of anti-fascist resistants of the German democratic
> republic
> Jahrling sent this letter to the general SS Kammler in Berlin
This is what I wrote on my sheet a week ago. So you have the picture: the
other Jahrling documents were microfilm right after the war among a lot
of other documents, but the ‘4,756 corpses’ 2 pages document was ‘discover’
35 years after the NMT trials by the committee of anti-fascist resistants
of the German democratic republic’, at a moment where revisionism started
to put some pressure…
From [email protected] Wed Jun 19 02:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 44458 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 18 Jun 1996 23:49:10 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne21.vir.com
>[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> Well, Mr McVay, as you know I’m not a professional historian despite
>> I could say that the reading of 70 or 80 books on this topic in 3 years
>> is not negligeable neither. Nowhere I remember to have read a story
>> similar to Wiesel’s story in the most important books that were published
>> over the last 25 years. My memory can be faulty here, but really I
>> don’t remember. Since your claim is that Faurisson lied when he said
>> that this story was drop a while ago, that you know several historians
>> who talks about peoples who were burned alive, I would like you to
>> give
>My initial reaction to the article published by Mr. Slepokura
>was simple – I have read accounts of people being burned
>alive, and I said so.
But you said also that _because_ of that Faurisson was lying. See below.
>> a) their name
>> b) the book and the page where it is written
>> c) if they have a degree in history
>> d) the date of the first publication
>> Be carefull: I don’t want a tale from an obscure Holocaust survivor
>> who say that 2 persons were throw alive in a crematory oven. The story
>Now you are qualifying your request. Fair enough, but if you
>expect me to re-read every book on the shelf to satisfy you,
>you will be disappointed. What I will do is keep this request
>in mind, and do the best I can to satisfy it. Fair enough?
>> that is offer by Wiesel is that the Jews were burn alive outside by
>> bunch of hundreds or thousands upon arrival (at _Auschwitz_).
>I did not see such figures in the quotes attributed to Wiesel
>in Slepokura’s article. Can you point them out to me? The
>article is archived here in ~/people/s/slepokura.orest/slepokura.0696.
>Perhaps he says this in “Night?” If so, please provide a
>citation, so I can see it.
I don’t know if I’ll be able to find ‘night’ in Montreal, but I’ll try
later. However, I have read a comment from Bradley Smith about this story
in ‘confession from a Holocaust revisionnist’, (book 2 or 3) that I have
somewhere here. The story that Smith gave via what he read in ‘Night’
is that Wiesel was walking with his father and that a long line of jews were
going passivilly, without reacting, in the direction of a fire. Upon arrival.
You said sooner:
>Now you are qualifying your request. Fair enough, but if you
I’ve good reasons for that. Faurisson didn’t say ‘in Auschwitz’, but since
he, you, me and several others know that Wiesel was deported in Auschwitz-
Birkenau then since your claim that he lied when he said that ‘historian
no longer believe this story’ (or something like that) than it mean impli-
citelly that a story about mass burning in Treblinka is irrellevant to
attack Faurisson’s credibility on this point. And since he said ‘historians’,
the testimony of a witness who still claim that 1 or 2 persons were burned
alive in an oven at a moment is not a ‘proof’ that Faurisson lied when
he rejected Wiesel’s story about _mass_ burning outside. I’m responding
to D. Keren here and to you in the same post. My claim that Faurisson statement
is right here is simply based on the fact that over 70 or 80 books that I read,
a third or half of them anti-revisionnist, including Danuta Czech ‘chronicle’,
this story is not mention.
>> Since your main argument is to say that Faurisson is a liar when he say
>> that this story was drop a while ago, you wouldn’t have any objection
>> to document your claim for this specific aspect of Auschwitz with a book
>> that was published in the last 25 years. Wiesel was ship to Auschwitz,
>> and Faurisson claimed that his story is a lie because the historians
>> have drop this story for a while. With your accusation, I’m expecting
>> you to bring a relevant reference for Auschwitz.
>> If you fail to respond directly, you can be sure that I’ll keep track of
>> that. Your honnor is on the pan of the balance Ken: I hope for you that
>> a fly will alight on the other pan soon.
>I will indeed keep an eye out for such a citation – and I will
>ask others to do so as well. In the meantime, you shall
>simply have to wait patiently.
My little finger tell me that you won’t find such a thing, and you know too
much the Holocaust to ignore that the mass burning outside would be count
in ‘the chronicle’ if such an event was believe by the exterminationnist.
Or does it mean that you accuse Faurisson to lie about it without beeing
sure that he’s wrong for this statement?
From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:48 PDT 1996
Article: 10997 of soc.history.what-if
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:16:22 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 186
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com
[email protected] (Alan R Williams) wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]> [email protected]
(Matt Giwer) writes:
>
> If you are indeed correct, then in fact revisionism is completely on
> topic. Or can in not be discussed in any context?
>
> There is a newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of revisionism:
> alt.revisionism. soc.history.what-if is for discussion of what would
> have happened if past events had not happened as they did.
> Revisionism is the denial that past events did happen and so is not on
> topic in this newsgroup.
I think I saw in one of his email (I missed the begining here)
that he asked: what would it be if the Holocaust never happened’?
In my case, I prefer a question like: what would it be if the holocaust
DID happen? In such a case, we could find, among the huge amount
of documents that the Nazis left behind them, a huge amount of reference
to an extermination policy. If the Holocaust, in the sense of what
is describe as an Holocaust today, not the death of a million or more
jews accounting for epidemies, tough working conditions in the camp,
or isolated progroms, but in the sense of the systematic liquidation of
6 million Jews in gas chambers would be a reality, than we couldn’t
expect so few resistance of the Jews to their deportation during the war.
And especially, if the Holocaust, in the sense that most of the people
interpret it today, was based on anything real, than we could expect
a large amount of informations about Auschwitz flowing out of Poland
over all the war. Here’s why:
First of all, the usual statement that the Germans have tried to keep secret
their extermination policy is completely ridiculous. This ‘attempt to preserve
the secret’ is often used to explain why the high level German documents
captured by the Allies refer to the ‘Final Solution’ as a program for the
expulsion of the Jews from Europe.
The Auschwitz complex was built close to an important agglomeration. Many ci-
vilians worked there during the day and went home in the evening. On page 62
of his 1993 study ‘Les Crematoires d’Auschwitz’, the anti-Revisionist author
Jean-Claude Pressac (who uses German documents) writes: “For the Birkenau
cremator- ies, the Germans gave the contracts to 12 civilian enterprises […]
Each working site was employed between 100 and 150 workers, a third of them
civilians.” The number of ovens was growing with years with the expansion of
the camp, and the maintenance was unavoidable. Auschwitz was critical for the
Allies: Synthetic rubber production was important for the Americans, and it is
not surprising that many air photo missions concerning this camp took place.
The huge backwardness of the Americans concerning the fabrication of synthetic
rubber after the lost of their usual source in Malaysia in 1941-42 didn’t permit
them any choice: they had to know everything about Auschwitz, and there’s no
doubt that they took measures to pick up as much information as possible. We
know, that the Americans had broken the German military codes. Over two and a
half years there was no mention of mass gassing in any intercept in spite of
the Germans being unaware that their codes had been cracked.
But there is even more, in ‘The Terrible Secret’, the Jewish historian Walter
Laqueur gives some hints in spite of being no manner of Revisionist. From him
we learn (page 25), that Auschwitz was an archipelago, that thousands of
inmates were frequently shipped to annex camps, mixed with civilians across
Silesia, that hundreds of civilians were working at Auschwitz 1, that journa-
lists were travelling freely in this region…This is the same author who says
that there were hundreds of liberations in 1942-4, among them several Jews
(page 169). But also there were hundreds of escapes in those years!
In ‘The Final Solution’, Reitlinger talks also of a a radio receiver that was
active in the inmate barracks over a period of months. Admiral Canaris, chief
of the counter-spying agency of the Third Reich, was a double agent. He gave
much information to the Allies during the war, but said nothing about alleged
mass liquidations at Auschwitz.
There was organised resistance in the camps. Groups of communists, Jews and
others were able to send information out of the camp. A fairly accurate picture
of this resistance is given by the book ‘Fighting Auschwitz’.
As stated, it was impossible for the Germans to avoid some contacts between
the inmates and the local population. Many Poles were, indeed, members of the
resistance, and some inmates had conversations with local populations when they
were brought out of Auschwitz to execute miscellaneous labour tasks. Sometimes
these civilians hid food and for the inmates. Often, the SS in charge of the
commandos were faking ignorance about those things in exchange for food or
gifts. (See for example Garlinski, ‘Fighting Auschwitz’, pages 43-5). The
contacts with the local population were developed in such a way that letters
and parcels could be sent out of the camp by the internal resistant cells of
Birkenau and Auschwitz on a regular basis. A group of the Cracovia resistance
was in regular touch via letters. In this town were preserved 350 of those
letters, ‘a small fraction of a very much more important total’ (Langbein,
‘Hommes et femmes a Auschwitz’, page 252). Letters successfully reached the
Netherlands also. In spite of this, such records are used to endorse the
extermination claim. As Butz pointed out, quoting L. Dawidowicz in her intro-
ductory chapter (page 221):
“One impediment was inadequacy of Jewish documentation in spite
of its enormous quantity… The absence of vital subjects from
the records may be explained by the predicament of terror and
censorship; yet, lacking evidence to corroborate or disprove, the
historian will never know with certainty whether that absence is
a consequence of an institutional decision not to deal with such
matters or whether it was merely a consequence of prudent policy
not to mention such matters. The terror was so great that even
private personal diaries, composed in Yiddish or Hebrew, were
written circumspectly, with recourse to Scripture and the Talmud
as a form of esoteric expression and self-imposed reticence.”
Garlinski mention also this story about the radio transmitter/receiver which
was active over 7 months in 1942 in Auschwitz and due to its contacts, the
direction of the Silesia local AK ceil (Armia Krajowa) was soon able to find
the wavelength used by the transmitter. (Garlinski, ‘Fighting Auschwitz’, page
126).
The Armia Krajowa, or the interior (or secret) army was formed in 1942 from
a previous resistance movement. It was organised like a real army. In 1944
the AK could count on about 300,000 members. In Birkenau there was a secret
organisation created in April 1942 by Colonel Karcz. Contact between the
Birkenau organisation and the main camp of Auschwitz took place on a daily
basis. The main task of the Karcz group was to provide information to the AK
elements outside. In 1942 the organisation of W. Pilecki, an ex-Polish officer,
could count on 1000 members between Auschwitz and Birkenau (Garlinski,
‘Fighting Auschwitz’, pages 97-8). In 1942-43 the resistant groups in Auschwitz
were so powerful that they controlled the Hospital, the kitchens, the main
office and had their agent in key positions.
The activity of the resistance in the camp had a specific purpose: feed the
Polish government in exile with exhaustive information about the events that
were occurring in the Nazi camps. The AK could count also on the complicity of
a few SS to transmit some messages outside (Garlinski, ‘Fighting Auschwitz’, pages
206-8). But often, messages were simply transmitted with the liberation of
inmates (Laqueur, ‘The Terrible Secret’, page 169 and Garlinsi, ‘Fighting
Auschwitz’, pages 54-5 & 112).
Communications between Poland and London were relatively easy for the Resis-
tance. The general Bor-Komorowski, commandant of the AK, said that clandestine
radio messages were regularly transmitted to London and that for the year
1942-43-44, there were almost 300 such messages per month. (T. Bor-Komorowski,
‘The secret Army’, page 150). Another source of information was the microfilms
which were sent to London on a monthly basis. The Polish Resistance had about
100 radio transmitters which were able to reach England. But other messages
were brought by newsmongers who were travelling to Sweden (neutral) and then
Great Britain.
Recently I obtained a copy of one of the most notorious Revisionist pamphlets:
‘The Auschwitz Lie’, by Thies Christophersen. Christophersen is an ex-German
officer who had worked in one of the camps peripheral to Auschwitz: Raisenko.
This booklet is not notorious not because one could qualify it as a big scien-
tific contribution to Revisionism, it’s just a small pamphlet where an
officer talks about his personnel experiences, (he visited Birkenau several
times in 1944).
The notoriety of this pamphlet, published in 1973, is mainly due to a false
reference that can be found: a fictive Red Cross report that is supposed to
claim that no more than 300,000 Jews died in WWII. Because of that, ‘The
Auschwitz Lie’ received immediately the status of ‘Bible of the Revisionists’,
and one still finds frequent reference in European books or magazine to this
pamphlet and this fictive reference with the development (hint as sth): this
is the Bible of the Revisionists, it contains a lie, so the Revisionist are
just liars and it is a good thing that Revisionist material is banned since
the public must be protected against those lies by people who will tell them
what they must read. What amazed me the first time I took a look at it wasn’t
the fact that this false reference was just an isolated one among several
others that were valid, it was to see that Christophersen didn’t invent it:
he just quoted a real Brazilian newspaper that didn’t check before publishing
this report about the ‘Red Cross Report’. Anyway, from Christophersen, we
learn that SS families were able to visit the soldiers without any major
problems in Auschwitz. We learn too that inmates from Birkenau were frequently
shipped to other camps and could establish contact with the local population.
This fact, as I said, was subsequently confirmed by the anti-Revisionist
historian Laqueur.
Now, first statement: Hoess, in his ‘confession’, supposedly given without
any coercion, testified that when Himmler ordered him to establish a program
of mass extermination in his camp (a verbal order to keep the secret) he
received also instructions not to discuss it with Gluecks, general inspector
of the camps, because absolute secrecy was necessary. Can you believe that?
(suite, next message)
From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:49 PDT 1996
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:20:15 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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[email protected] (Alan R Williams) wrote:
>
< suite of the previous message>
We will take a look now at the usual propaganda over the war. The american
Arthur Butz, especially, was the first to do an exhaustive inquiry about
it. What is clear from his review of american newspapers is that the
propaganda about mass extermination started as sson as 1942. It was
mainly statements made by zionist officials, Chaim Weizman among others,
that were often related to an appeal for the opening of Palestine to
jewish immigration. Several camps or atrocities are mentionned, Belzec,
Chelmo, Sobibor, Treblinka, and the accusations take miscellaneous forms:
jews who are shot, report about mass electrocution of jews in Belzec,
gasing methos in Treblinka, poison, sometimes the use of wagons were
lethal gas is used. It looks like the usual scrap that any war is
normally generating: propaganda. Several of those accusations were drop
after the war.
I was able to find recently a rare book: ‘the black book of the polish
jewry’, publish at the end of 1943. This book is totally consistent
with the war propaganda that can be found in the newspapers: Chelmo,
Treblinka, story of atrocities, in some cases details: 250 jewish
children allegedly killed in a jewish sanatorium, elsewhere 50 jews
executed in a township, the book is a collection of war propaganda,
probably a mix of thruth an falsehoods, an over few hundreds pages
we have an idea of what kind of stories were used by several jewish
organisations which had their large network of informant across
Europe. Nowhere Auschwitz is mention, despite the mass gasing of jews
is supposed to have start in the spring of 1942. The index, that contains
a large amount of places were atrocities are allegedly comitted,
do not contain the name of Auschwitz. Several minor stories, but
nothing about the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews there.
Enrique Aynat made a deep inquiry with the review published
by the polish government in exile in London, the ‘Polish fighting
review’. It is similar stuff. Several stories about atrocities
against jews were put in circulation by this review ( the informations
were received in the same way that what was explained earlier, from
the A.K.) but Auschwitz appear just few times before 1945. But
there’s more: when it appear, it is not in connection with mass
gasing of jews. It is about case of torture, hard work, the
tough conditions of the inmates who have to work for the military
production. An example of that can be find in the 1 july 1942 article
(n0 47) where it is mention that the German use syringue to kill
prisonners of Bikernau. There’s a base of thruth: the method
was at least used for the uthanasy of prisonners who were affect by the
catastrophic typhus epidemy of 1942, but there’s no evidence that
it was use to liquidate them because of an extermination policy.
In several other articles during
2 years, very ‘low level’ details about some inmates who died
are given, and in a case it is say that few hundred russian
prisonners were gased at a specific date. What is astonishing here
is that over 2 years and a half, the systematic murder of hundreds
of thousands of jews seems to be ignored while the polish resistance
is suppose to be aware of a single gasing of russian pows at a time.
There is also a reference to the gasing of polish childrens at the end of
1943, despite today we never speak about the gasing of poles. But
among the huge amount of propaganda that was published over those
years, this is all. Before the mid 1944, the atrocities were generally
not concerning Auschwitz and when it was th case, the mass gasing
of jews was not mention. Ken McVay up to know have just bring one tele-
gram sent during the war from a spy (Schultz) who played a role in the
diffusion of propaganda. However, Schultz do not mention Auschwitz but
a project that was discuss to kill Jews with Zyklon B in Berlin (in
the future). The telegram was sent while the gasing operations had
allegedly start a while before and Schultz source is even not Auschwitz
inmates account but an obscure meeting of SS officers. With the huge
amount of propaganda and scrap that talk about electrocutions, vapor
chambers, etc… this is weak.
The story about the mass gasing of jews in Auschwitz began
really in the summer of 1944 in the allied newspapers, and then we
can say that the persons who were spreading the atrocities stories
had no choice: the other camps were shut down several months before.
First remark: such stories are not ‘a proof’ of mass gasing,
simply because propaganda and false accusations were always a
part of war, and second because those accusations were made
in connection with a call to allied countries for negotiations
with germans. The zionist leaders of that time had clearly an objective
in the mind: put pressure on the British and force them to allow
the opening of the Palestine borders to jewish immigration.
Israel was not existing yet, and the arabs were the majority there.
Several declarations in the newspapers let no ambiguity about it.
Second remark: the real problem is that it is hard to believe that
such mounstruous events, the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews
over 2 years, could be absent of publications like the ‘black book
of the Polish jewry’ while minor stories about the executions of
50 jews in a small township are present. That book was publish
expresselly for the sake of propaganda, to talk exhaustivelly about
the anti jewish persecutions. And it is not because Auschwitz was
‘secret’. We can have a clear indication of that with the anti-revisionnist
author Martin Gilbert in ‘Auschwitz and the allied’, p 340. After
an exhaustive review of the documentation, he conclude that Auschwitz
was absent of the war propaganda before the mid 1944.
There it’s like to say that events like those that happend in
Rwanda did exist over 2 years but that despite information was
collected on a daily based by A.K. agents in Bikernau and Auschwitz 1,
nobody seem aware of it. Imagine 2 Rwandas over 2 years and nobody
within that country noticed anything during this period except
at the end.
Third remark: such an absence of propaganda would be more acceptable
for camps like Belzec, simply because those one were more isolated,
there was not an important towniship beside, there was not hundreds
of civilians who worked there, inmates were not frequently reshiped
in the vicinity of the camps and able to have contact with civilians,
Belzec was not of any strategical importance for the american
since it hadn’t any Buma plan industry: the inmates were suppose
to arrive there and to be killed quickly, nothing else.
But what we have in the WWII propaganda is the opposite: no possible
secret for Auschwitz, but it is there that an unexplanable silence
was keepen. It must be say also that according to the post war
confessions, Auschwitz was suppose to be the ‘metropol’ of the
extermination, the main camp. At Nuremberg, the bulk of the
extermination story was built on Auschwitz.
Fourth remark: The story about the ‘revelation of the secret’ is
of an uncommensurable absurdity. The WRB report, published in 1944,
is suppose to be an accurate description of the nature of Auschwitz.
The american press revealed that 2 inmates escaped and were able to go
in Switzerland to give a very accurate description of the gassing
procedure and the installations in Auscwitz. The authors of the WRB
report stayed anonymous during 16 years despite it had be more credible
to present those ones immediatelly.
They stayed anonymous for 16 years and the jewish
writter Reitlinger was a bit bothered in the first edition of the final
solution about this fact but those ones were produced before the
second edition of his book 150 miles away from his Sussex domicile
(London). Rudolph Vrba, author of a best seller a bit later, ‘I
cannot forgive’. Vrba is suppose to had the false identity of Walter
Rosenberg in Auschwitz despite he wrote that the other inmates called
him ‘Rudi’.
Several, a lot of contradictions exist in Vrba’s ‘memories’, Vrba as
many knows was obligated to admit that he lied on many things in the
cross -examination of 1988 (Zundel trial).
Let say just that when I read Vrba’s book, I saw that his escape
had a specific purpose: give a warn to the whole world about the fate
of the jews in Auschwitz, ‘breaking the secret’ in other words. One
have just to read the previous message to realize that it is ridicoulous.
Vrba could not have escape and be charge of such a mission simply because
hundreds of escapes occured before his alledge escape.
Despite the inconsistences in his testimony, Vrba’s credibility is
essantial. The defenders of the legend can conceed that an obscur
eye witness could have lie, but Vrba is a kind of detonnator, a domino:
since he talk about his entertainment with F. Muller at the camp, since
the key eyewitness Sonderkommando F. Muller said also that he spoke
with Vrba several times in Auschwitz, if one of the testimony is false,
the other collapse. If Vrba testimony is false, then one would have
to explain why the real authors of the WRB report never challendge
Vrba’s story. And then we would conclude that the WRB report wasn’t
writen by S.Kommandos but by higher rank propagandist who had a large
amount of datas available: this is where the story began.
other informations at:
http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith – (Page doesn`t exist)
From [email protected] Sat Jun 22 13:21:50 PDT 1996
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:38:31 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:10999 alt.revisionism:45310
[email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
> > What if the position of revisionists were the alternate history?
>
> What is usually meant by the “revisionists” is those who claimed that the
> Holocaust never actually happened. There are two ways to approach this
> as an AH:
>
> 1) Suppose the revisionists were right; everything looks exactly as it
> does today, but in fact the Holocaust never happened. What are the
> implications? Robert Anton Wilson said it best:
> “I merely observe that a conspiracy that can deceive us
> about 6,000,000 deaths can deceive us about *anything*,
> and it takes a great leap of faith for Holocaust
> revisionists to believe WWII happened at all, or that
> Franklin Roosevelt did serve as President from 1933 to
> 1945, or that Marilyn Monroe was more “real” than King
> Kong or Donald Duck.”
> I think this is rationally undeniable.
Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic
conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount
of documents, including the Dachau death records and most of the
inmates who died did it in the last 4-5 months of the war. Guess
why.
The fact is that revisionism has now reach many people, far-rightist,
leftist, socio-democrat, because of it scientific contain. It was easy
to claim at the begining ‘revisionism is just a Nazi doctrine’, but
it is hard to explain how a growing number of people, several who
hadn’t any neo-nazi activity inb the past but a good scientific background
can join such an heresy. Because it is based on other things than ‘It didn’t
happen because it didn’t’. With time, it is the opposite that seems to happen:
the holocaust promoters offer their post war testimonies and the revisionist
are using the opinion of neutral experts. I did my own inquiry among
several crematory operators and discovered soon that Nizkor’s claim
that a normal body could be cremate in half an hour wasn’t based on ANY
real crematory operator opinion. I wrote that piece before, and their response
was clearly beside the question:
CREMATORIA
The Revisionist claim is usually supported by the affirmations of Ivan Legace,
a crematory operator from Calgary who has been subjected to smear attacks
>from the Holocaust lobby in alt.revisionism. I hadn’t really the time to
involve myself on this topic, I’m working 40 hours a week, and I’ve no
connection with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which can raise billions of
dollars for the construction of Holocaust Museums. However, I never heard
about any crematory operator who was produced in a court case by the Ho-
locaust lobby to support the claim that 4 bodies can be reduced to ashes
in 30 or 45 minutes in a crematory oven. My first knowledge of the topic
was limited, than I got an interview with M. Marc Poirier (Funeral House
Magnus Poirier, Montreal) and a phone interview with a chemist who is main-
taining several crematoria in Quebec. Later, I got several phone interviews:
with M. Denis, from ‘Incineration Plus’ (Montreal); S. Ouellet (Urgel Bour-
gie Funeral House, Montreal); J. Choiniere, Crematorium d’Arche (Longueuil);
a man from ‘le Cimetiere du Bas du Fleuve’; M. Cloutier, from Le Cremato-
rium Mont-Royal.
The first thing that must be said is that Auschwitz crematoria were
operating at 800 degrees Celcius approximately, according to the annex of
an anti-Revisionist book, “Les chambres a gaz ont exist‚”, by G. Wellers.
An annex to the book shows the source: report of the Polish War Crime In-
vestigation Commission and Jan Sehn. This communist commission claimed
right after the war that the Nazis were able to cremate 3 or 4 people in
20 or 30 minutes per oven at a temperature of about 800 degrees. Cremato-
ries were not operating at 1,200 to 1,600 degrees like today’s crematoria
in those days; they were less technologically developed.
The first thing that must be said is that nowhere was I told that the
cremation took less than about 2 hours for a normal body. The range was
between two hours to two and a half hours. To that one must add a pre-
hea ting period of 30 minutes for the first cremation of the day. A Cana-
dian law states that the after-burner region must have a temperature above
1000 degrees Celsius before beginning the cremation. The after-burner is a
part of the structure where a little wall slows down the evacuation of the
combustion products and where a flame is applied to those ones. The purpose
is simply to burn the remains of the primary combustion and avoid the ex-
pulsion of pollutants into the atmosphere.
In the case of the Auschwitz ovens, we are told that the period of
operation was limited in the time: the Krema 1 at Auschwitz 1 (six ovens)
was just sufficient to dispose the bodies of the inmates who died from or-
dinary causes (typhus, other diseases) and the main crematoria of Birkenau
started to work only after February 1943. It was also documented by the
anti-Revisionist write Jean-Claude Pressac that those crematoria were sub-
jected to several breakdowns, especially Kremas 4 and 5 but also the other
two. One of the two latest was shut down finally in the same year but even
the other one stopped operating for several weeks in miscellaneous situa-
tions. The Auschwitz camp was evacuated in January 1945. Normally a crema-
tory must be cleaned up and is not operating 24 hours a day. Nevertheless,
the claim nowadays is that about a million people died in Auschwitz-Birkenau
and that most of them were cremated there. According to the latest version
of the Nizkor FAQ: more than 700,000 in Kremas 2 and 3. These had 15 ovens
each, the crematorium buildings 4 and 5 had 8 ovens each. All of that in
less than 18 months, with several breakdowns.
My inquiry gave me the possibility to learn also the average quantity
of air that is evacuated from a crematory in Quebec: about 625 cubic feet
per minute, or 1400 cubic metres per hour. In the case of the Auschwitz
ovens, the figure that can be derived from the data present in “Anatomy Of
A Death Camp” is about 2,000 cubic metres per oven. In that case, we have
a figure of 33% less air that is applied to the corpse in a crematory here,
but also a figure for a temperature that is 75% higher. The claim that a
body could be cremated in 30 minutes is difficult to support with physical
evidence here.
Multiple corpses in an oven:
The Auschwitz ovens dimensions were about 1 metre in diameter, and se-
veral corpses were allegedly incinerated at a time to increase their effi-
ciency. Everywhere I was told that the cremation of a body is directly re-
lated to the volume which is occupied. A normal corpse takes between two
hours to two and a half hours to be cremated, an extremely obese corpse much
more time, and the lower limit that the chemist and those crematory opera-
tors knew was about an hour and a quarter. In some other countries, the
cremation time seems to be faster (there are few variables on which one can
play) since some Revisionists have already given figures like 1 hour 30
minutes for a normal body. In that case, the oxygen intake is probably hi-
gher. The ratio surface/volume to burn is also one of the factor that in-
fluences the faster cremation. The combustion of the corpse is just the
oxidation of its molecules with the oxygen that is brought into the muffle.
An analogy could be drawn with the combustion of a log: cutting it into thin
slices will reduce the combustion time. In the case of the Birkenau ovens,
packing the muffles would result in a drastic drop in the air intakes. The
heads and shoulders of the corpses would stop the path of air molecules and
fewer could reach the most important part of the body that is offering a
large surface: the trunk.
A good analogy is that of a window you open lightly to let air in. Since
there’s little space available, several corpses piled up in the muffle would
not allow a maximisation of the surface that it offers to oxygen: abdomens
would be in contact with backs, etc…Cremation specialists often use the
equivalent in pounds to estimate the cremation time, they use datas like ‘a
150 pounds body’ or a ‘250 pounds body’, etc…
Nizkor claim that emaciated corpses wouldn’t take as much time to cremate,
and this is true, however they ignore the fact that most of the Jews allegedly
gassed were supposelly killed upon arrival. Photos of new inmates who arrived
at Auschwitz do exist (1) and these, contrarily to the Jews who were victims
of typhus and shortage over months in camps at the end of the war have nothing
in common with famished-looking persons. It is 90 % of the persons allegedly
cremated in the Holocaust story. There is also an attempt to use the argument
that most of the victims were children, but this is plainly wrong: a simple
study that uses the lists that are provided by the Holocaust lobby itself
(eg Danuta Czech in “Auschwitz Chronicle”) shows that the children among the
victims could not account for more than 20%.
The best way to cremate a million Jews was simply to built more cremato-
ria. The author Arthur Butz gave a wonderful parallel several years ago that
must be summarise (2):
There are two tables which are available for the crematory ovens. Most of the
deaths in Germany’s camps occurred at the end of the war when the chaotic con-
ditions of the defeat created large scale shortages and boosted the mortality
rate, according to mortality statistics that the SS were using for those camps
(the documentation related to the official mortality rate, registration books
and so on were seized by the Allies). On the other hand, most of the deaths in
Auschwitz occurred during the summer of 1942-1943 with typhus epidemics. It is
said usually, even on the Nizkor site, that the majority of Jews who were de-
ported to Auschwitz were not registered, and vanished without trace because
the Germans didn’t record their names in their files, they gassed them on
arrival. Only the Jews who died from ordinary death were registered in the
death book. Jews who were sent to other camps were not tattooed.
At the end of 1942 a campaign was launched by Himmler to fight typhus and,
as he stated in a letter, to reduce the mortality rate at ‘any cost’ (3). On
January 20, 1943 Gluecks, inspector of the camps, in a circular addressed to
all the Commandants of Nazi camps, ordered them to fight the too high mortali-
ty rate ‘with all the available means’. Other documents (4) attest of this
exchange between Pohl, Himmler and Glucks on that topic and one could also
find a more accesible source about this campaign by reading Reitlinger, _The
Final Solution_, First edition, page 127.
On September 30, 1943 Pohl was able to report progress in a letter to
Himmler. What is interesting is that he provides the statistics about mortali-
ty rates in miscellaneous camps: from July 1942 to February 1943 the mortality
rate was about 8% while it dropped to 2.8% in June 1943. An interesting aspect
is the August month:
August 1943
population death %
Dachau 17,300 40 0.23
Sachsenhausen 26,500 194 0.73
Buchenwald 17,600 118 0.67
Mauthausen 21,100 290 1.37
Auschwitz 74,000 2380 3.1
etc….
Again, exterminated Jews in gas chambers are not included in this internal
correspondence. If we look at mortality rates due to natural causes we can see
that the number of ovens is almost comparable with camps where there is no ex-
termination claim. In 1942, crematoria were constructed in Dachau and Sachen-
hausen: each had 4 ovens. At Dachau there were 2 ovens before 1942 (samething
for Sachsenhausen). At Buchenwald there were six. In Auschwitz the number of
ovens was between 30 and 46, depending on the period. The number of inmates
grew to 100,000 at the end of 1943.
But there’s another way: Dachau and Buchenwald wee in Germany and as ‘non-
extermination’ camps, they can be used for the comparison if we want to see
the intention of the Germans when they launched the construction of crematoria
rather than when they were functional and compare it with the death rate there.
In the previous case, Auschwitz seems a bit better equipped with crematoria
than the other camps if we take into account the mortality rate, but if we
look back at the moment when the decision to build crematoria was taken, here
we get even a lower proportion of crematoria/death record for Auschwitz than
for camps in Germany, sometimes by a factor of two.
If we just take the year 1942, 45,575 inmates died in Auschwitz and 2,470
in Dachau (5). But it is at this moment that the SS launched the construction
of most of the crematoria, so we can have a clear idea of what they had in the
mind: Auschwitz was half as well equipped with crematoria as Dachau, according
to normal death figures, probably for budgetary constraints.
The main reasons for the high death rates in Birkenau were the typhus epi-
demics of 1942-1943 for which Germans lost the control and also the fact that
many sick inmates were shipped to Birkenau, according to documents (it was,
indeed a death camp).
Permanent use?
I will add an observation here: if we are told that the crematories were
operating 24 hours a day, than we will need to substract 4 days from that.
The worst period of the extermination process, according to the legend, is
the summer of 1944, when 300,000 to 400,000 Hungarian Jews were allegedly
liquidated and cremated in Auschwitz in two months (6). The story is that
thousands of bodies were burned in open pits since even the ‘fantastic’ cre-
matoria of Auschwitz were not able to dispose of 5,000 to 10,000 bodies a day.
And in that story, the crematoria were working 24 hours a day over this period
also. It was normal for the U.S. Air force to take photos of a target before
and after the bombardment. Before, to evaluate the defense, after, to evaluate
the damaged. The I.G. Farben industrial complex of Auschwitz-Monowitz was
bombed at the end of the summer, and 4 photos, taken by U.S. airplanes, give
a picture of Birkenau during this critical period: The May 31, 1944, the June
26, 1944, the August 25, 1944 and the September 13, 1944. In none of the pho-
tos can one see any trace of thousands of bodies burned in open pits. Morever,
on the 4 photos, there is no smoke released by the crematoria chimneys! (7).
The fuel:
The average quantity of fuel that is necessary to burn a body in a crema-
torium today is about 23 cubic metres of natural gas, or the equivalent of 30
to 35 kg of coke if we convert with calorimetric data. In the 20s, things were
not different, and since the author J.C. Pressac reproduces the documents that
deal with coke deliveries to Auschwitz-Birkenau ( A.T.O., 1989 ), it is possible
to estimate approximately the number of people who were cremated there. 2,200
tons of coke, or the equivalent of 70,000 to 100,000 persons if we account for
a proportion of 20% children. The coke shipments to Birkenau give a figure that
matches almost perfectly the death registers of the camp.
The documents:
There are very few documents that are normally adduced to ‘prove’ that Birke-
nau’s crematoria were able to dispose of so many people, most of the ‘proofs’
are based on post-war eyewitness testimonies. However, it is not bad to look
at the 2 main ones:
The Jahring document (28 June, 1943) says that the 52 muffles of Auschwitz-
Birkenau were able to reduce to ashes 4,756 corpses per day with a 24 hour a
day operation. The date of the document matches the period when several major
breakdowns were affecting Birkenau’s crematoria (the SS were trying desperately
to repair it at that time, as Pressac documented). The origin of the document
as given by Pressac is the ‘Committee of the Anti-fascist Resistance of the German
Democratic Republic. According to the text, this document seems to have been
‘discover’ in … 1981 in GDR, at a moment where revisionnism became suddenly
a threat and then transmit to the Auschwitz museum. If one examine the documents
in Pressacs book, ‘A.T.O’, he could clearly see that the ‘signature’ below this
one do not looks like Jahrling signature on 2 other documents produced after
the war (reproduces on page 223 and 224 of A.T.O)
There was no reason for the SS to claim such an output at the moment that
they had so many difficulties with those crematoria: this document is a forgery.
Morever, in the other document reproduce on page 224 the crematoria operated only
12 hours a day.
Another document that is used on the anti-Revisionist side: ‘Fritz Sander
and Paul Erdmann, Prufer’s superiors at Topf, estimated an output of 30 to 36
bodies in 10 hours […]’ (8). The reference is Weimar, LK 6451, letter Topf
July 14, 1941.
According to the rest of the text, the best I could understand is that this
was a double muffle furnace. In Pressac’s book there are several references to
contract invoices, and not only for Auschwitz: it seems that Pressac had access
to a huge amount of letters and documentation that were written over 10 years,
the number of quotations about the crematoria is impressive. I would not be
surprised if he met several references to lower cremation output in those let-
ters.
Nevertheless, the documents that are usually used to ‘prove’ those crematoria
output are rare: 2 or 3. It is possible that this letter exaggerates the outputs
a bit for ‘selling purposes’. It is said too that the first cremation was car-
ried on only on August 15, 1941 with that furnace. This means simply that this
claim in the letter, probably, was not based on something that was observed but
on an hypothetically optimistic estimate. In short, it is worthless.
Other informations on:
http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english –
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith – (Page doesn`t exist)
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg – (Page doesn`t exist)
Notes And References
(1) The Auschwitz Album
(2) “The Hoax of the Twentieth Century”, by Arthur Butz, 360
pages, published by the Institute for Historical Review, P.O. Box
2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 U.S.A.
(3) (document 2172-PS, Reitlinger, “The Final Solution”, First edition, page 127).
(4) (1469-PS, NMT, Volume V, page 372)
(5) Butz, page 378
(6) “Debunking the Genocide Myth: A Study of the Nazi Concentration Camps and
the Alleged Extermination of European Jewry”, Introduction by Pierre Hofstet-
ter, Translated from the French by Adam Robbins, published by the Institute
for Historical Review, (1978), page 246.
(7) “Air Photo Evidence”, John Ball, Samizdat Publishers, 206
Carlton Street Toronto, Canada M5A-2L1. [Around 10$ US plus ship-
ment, (416) 922-9850].
(8) (Anatomy of a Death Camp, page 189).
From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 12:50:10 PDT 1996
Article: 45889 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionism as a framework
Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:42:59 GMT
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[email protected] (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:44:40 -0700
>> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
>> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic
>David Irving “concedes” that at least 4 million died. Do try
>and get your stories straight.
David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that
he gave once was in his mind a ‘maximum’. The majority of the revisionnists,
including the statistician Sanning don’t agree with this figure.
>> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
>> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
>> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
>> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount
>Interestingly, the SS didn’t seem to have a problem with
>starvation… the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can
>Mr. Beaulieu address that issue?
Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself
the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the
Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were
slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were
ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn’t done
to ‘explain’ this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph
when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me.
In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates
are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double
standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account
about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained
how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods
but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there’s gangs that always
exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not
an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated
with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other
times…). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates
(like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite
the SS were picking up their own part, a ‘tax’. The people there were not
united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities.
They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral
inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others
were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for
the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery
of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or
400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this ‘tax’, and
several well placed inmates also. It doesn’t mean that the starvation is
due to a specific plan.
Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans
launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the
camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded
to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one
pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with
starvation in that case?
From [email protected] Tue Jun 25 20:20:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45971 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:40:17 GMT
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[email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) wrote:
>
[email protected] (Craig J Neumeier) wrote:
> Your response is utterly beside the point, which is why I’ve cut it all.
> The revisionist claim requires disregarding the evidence of literally
>thousands, of eyewitnesses, both camp survivors and Nazis from Speer and
>Eichmann on down. Either they were all lying, in which case they are part
>of a vast conspiracy, or their testimony is faked, in which case a vast
>conspiracy would need to be responsible. (There is a hell of a lot of
>physical evidence which would also have to be faked, but concentrate on
>the testimony.)
> If you claim that all that evidence is lies or deception, how do you
>know that all the people who claim to have met FDR weren’t lying? It
>wouldn’t be any more difficult to fake the one than the other.
First, you main point seems to be that a large conspiracy where thousands
of Jews met to draw the mainlines is impossible. Second point, you claim:
how do you know that they lied?
The response to the second point is given by the impressive quantity of
arguments that the revisionnist have pile up over decades. I could give
several others here, but they are presents into books and websites
The response to the first one is more subtil.
First, there’s no claim that all the eyewitness met together to lie.
However, there’s a claim that gradually, an impressive number of lies
have emerge. Lying about someone you hate is not an extraordinnary fact:
the John Demjanjuk case have show clearly that an Holocaust survivor
testimony is not something that one must consider as an irrefutable
proof of anything, far from that. On a topic that do not rise up so much
emotivity, the normal human behaviour is more ethical generally. The
main element that can pulverize this ethical barrage that we have, this
self impose restriction that lead us to tell the truth most of the time
is hate. If you hate someone, you can tell yourself that it is ethically
correct to lie, something that you wouldn’t do in another circunstance.
To me, Jews had serious reasons to hate the Nazis. In spite of the absence
of a systematic extermination policy, they were persecuted heavily.
It is the oldest weapon of war: propaganda. You take fictive or real
facts and you distorse it for your political agenda. Jews are not an
exceptions. Hate, however, is not a unique reason. But this reason alone
do not require the existence of a giant conspiracy where Jews would be
organized like an army for a definite purpose. I’ve notice that several
camps survivors describe a scenario that is not necessarelly related to
an extermination policy. I remember a tv programm were a Jew explained
how a german officer saved his life: he was shipped into a camp were he
didn’t see any gas chamber (it wqas in Poland, but not one of the 6 usual
camps) and described how the conditions were tough, how epidemies were
decimating them during some periods, how they were beaten by the kapos,
and so on. Later he said, a new SS commandant (a ‘rightist’ like Schindler)
was promoted there to replace the other commandant. Life conditions improved,
and he gave even 2 or 3 annecdocts were the commandant was kind. After that,
at a specific date, several Jews tried to escape and were forced to
hide with weapons in a barrack. ‘Then the extermination restarted’, was
the commentary of the speaker. The Jews were killed by the SS. At the end
of the war, Jews were evacuated toward Germany and the man survived,
in his account, because the SS commandant was a rightist.
In all the programm, the word ‘extermination’ appeared several times, but
if I’m taking the story he gave, I can interpret that in another way:
there was never any extermination policy but persecutions, one of the
commandant was more human than the other, the SS didn’t shoot the Jews
to ‘restart’ exterminations but because they tried to escape, and so on..
Several accounts are of the same kind.
After the war, publicized trials were organized and those ones had at
least a specific purpose: denazify Germany, show to the german people
how their leaders were mad. The irregularities in those trials have been
largelly documented by revisionnists, including prooven cases of torture,
intimidation and so on. It is easy to take Hoess confession, or those
of another german officer, but how would you react if someone threat to
send your familly in Siberia if you don’t collaborate? I’m not claiming
that torture was used always, but it is clear and net that after the
‘evidence’ offer by prior ‘confessions’, the best method to avoid the
gallow wasn’t to contest the alleged crimes but to shift responsability
on someone else. In this case, the winner of the war can impose is self
vision more easilly. If I’m facing a tribunal were the staff is convince
in advance that I’m guilty, because it is the widely accept version,
challendging the previous ‘confessions’, the belief of the winers, is
a pure suicide.
There’s also a claim from some revisionist that those trials had a
specific purpose: build ‘evidence’ that could lead Germany to pay
reparations to Jews and the future state of Israel. In other terms, a
racket. The last time I’ve read about this it was in one of Zundel’s
power news letter, where he documented this claim with some Jewish
official declarations during the war and post war period. I’ve not those
files in front of me but I can search. One of the arguments that I read
in the anti-revisionnist litterature was that Israel wasn’t yet existing
when the trials took place. This is true and I had serious doubts at a
time about the story of reparations to Israel as a purpose. There
was at this moment a massive immigration toward Palestine and the emergence
of a Jewish state later was in the air. However, I wasn’t at Nuremberg,
spying Kempner or Marcus conversations to get a real picture. This claim
is based normally on the high proportion of Jews in the Nuremberg staff,
but my idea about it actually is that despite there was clearly a political
exploitation of the Holocaust right after the war, the main purpose of
the Nuremberg trials was not to punish the Nazi leaders but to denazify
Germany. Charging the Nazi leaders with as much crimes as possible was
the best method.
After the war, but during also, there was a large amount of reported
stories on Nazi atrocities that were drop several years later. Several
non Jews lied also: they were talking about their political ennemies and,
as I said, there’s no major surprise here. Several witness of mass gasing
appeared only decades after the war . Some others started to spread those
stories sooner. The Nuremberg trials were establish to built those ‘proofs’,
and due to the large publicity that surrounded it, a door for ‘safe’ lies
was largelly open. The ex Nazi camps inmates became suddenly miracoulous
survivors, heros, and people were eager to ear their stories. Their was
no attempt to ask those people to justify their stories. No opposition.
I’m calling that a snow ball effect. There’s some holocaust survivors who
acted in a calculated way, some people who were there to beat the drums.
But in many cases, occasional liars act in such a way because they are
looking for publicity. They catch the wave. And a new kind of false witness
have appear after decades, those who really had a clear picture of what
was the reality at the begining, but who gradually mixed up their souvenirs
with the strories that they eared after WWll. Dr. Elizabeth Loftus,
is a specialist of those questions. She wrote a book which deal with
the behaviour of memory under autosuggestion and its reliability into
normal court cases. After 4 decades, one can claim sincerelly that he
witnessed a gasing in that way but it can be based on a mixed of real
events and falsehoods. Let say this person is present at a selection upon
arrival. If the extraordinary mediatic noise over 4 decades report
gasing witness, if the childrens of this person told him (her): how
awfull it was certanlly for you to see all those people being gased,
to ear their cry, and so on, the story that this person can remember 4
decades after is not the same. You will say that with such an argument,
anyone can deny that the Boer’s war happened, but this is different:
first, there was no advantage for the people to invent this story at
the begining, and we know also that people act _during_ the events as
if it was a reality. In the case of the mass gasing in Auschwitz, people
didn’t act as if it was a reality: no information about mass gasing of
Jews emerge from the camp till the mid 1944 despite the fact that it was
impossible to hide such a thing for this camp (see my 2 postings about
this ‘secret nature of Auschwitz’) Morever, as soon we look at the 1944’s
story, we face a witness (Vrba) who’s credibility was demolish at the
Zundel trial because of the numerous lies in his account. This is not
normal. Finally, if memory and witness are not trustable, physic is
trustable and than, with the nature of revisionnist arguments, the crematory
argument, among others, is not an attempt to opbscur the ‘facts’.
When you state that revisionism imply a giant conspiracy, this is not
true. I consider that several jewish institutions have use the Holocaust
to support their own agenda. In this case, I can, in some cases, believe
that such or such Jew who use the Holocaust to promote a pro-zionist agenda
believe what he say. Some jewish institutions have use largelly the witness
accounts to boost the Jewish nationalism, using the leitmotiv ‘never again’
to rise up Jews against real or fictive ennemies. In this mythology, Jews
were always the poor victims over centuries and almost noone is not guilty
of a crime or another against Jews. There’s a base of truth, Jews were
persecuted at some moments, but here the claim is boost as much as possible.
I figure that the important amount of inter-racial marriages actually is
not independant of such a speech. However, what I mean here is that for
a jewish political organisation which is there to promote a specific agenda,
the thrutfulness of this or that witness account is irrelevant: the essantial
is that it work. In this case, I can imagine perfectly a Jew who is strongly
involve with an organisation like the ADL and who believe any witness account.
His way of thinking is not: lets built as much false account as possible to
feed the propaganda, but lets look for the existing accounts and use it
since it is the right thing to do for Jews. This person is not interest
to know in advance if the account that is used is true or not: if it appear
to be false, than the word ‘antisemit’ will be use to shut down any criticism.
There’s definitivelly several Jews who lied from A to Z rather than
partly, people who knew from the begining. But here the number of those
ones is hard to know for me. I’ve no doubt, as a matter of fact, that
Elie Wiesel and Wisenthal know perfectly from the begining what they are
doing. They occupy a high position. However there’s no need for me to imagine
x thousands Jews who have frequent meeting about ‘how to use our lie’,
this is not the way things works. The evolution of the Holocasut exploitation,
its gradual growth till the dimension we know today was done gradually,
by people who hadn’t any knowledge of the other in several cases, because
there was no opposition to it. A kind of contagious effect.
From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 07:18:36 PDT 1996
Article: 46049 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:28:10 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<neume001.83[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com
[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
Well, it’s not for Matt Giwer but Ken McVay but I’ve big
problem with some messages here to align my response under the right
one actually, ‘no such message’ is often the response…
Ok Ken McVay wrote:
>> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
>> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic
>David Irving “concedes” that at least 4 million died. Do try
>and get your stories straight.
David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that
he gave once was in his mind a ‘maximum’. The majority of the revisionnists,
including the statistician Sanning don’t agree with this figure.
>> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
>> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
>> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
>> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount
>Interestingly, the SS didn’t seem to have a problem with
>starvation… the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can
>Mr. Beaulieu address that issue?
Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself
the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the
Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were
slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were
ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn’t done
to ‘explain’ this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph
when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me.
In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates
are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double
standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account
about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained
how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods
but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there’s gangs that always
exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not
an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated
with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other
times…). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates
(like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite
the SS were picking up their own part, a ‘tax’. The people there were not
united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities.
They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral
inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others
were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for
the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery
of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or
400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this ‘tax’, and
several well placed inmates also. It doesn’t mean that the starvation is
due to a specific plan.
Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans
launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the
camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded
to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one
pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with
starvation in that case?
From [email protected] Wed Jun 26 08:04:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46049 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:28:10 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<neume001.83[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com
[email protected] (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
Well, it’s not for Matt Giwer but Ken McVay but I’ve big
problem with some messages here to align my response under the right
one actually, ‘no such message’ is often the response…
Ok Ken McVay wrote:
>> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews
>> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic
>David Irving “concedes” that at least 4 million died. Do try
>and get your stories straight.
David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that
he gave once was in his mind a ‘maximum’. The majority of the revisionnists,
including the statistician Sanning don’t agree with this figure.
>> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation,
>> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system
>> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just
>> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount
>Interestingly, the SS didn’t seem to have a problem with
>starvation… the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can
>Mr. Beaulieu address that issue?
Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself
the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the
Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were
slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were
ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn’t done
to ‘explain’ this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph
when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me.
In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates
are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double
standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account
about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained
how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods
but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there’s gangs that always
exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not
an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated
with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other
times…). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates
(like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite
the SS were picking up their own part, a ‘tax’. The people there were not
united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities.
They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral
inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others
were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for
the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery
of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or
400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this ‘tax’, and
several well placed inmates also. It doesn’t mean that the starvation is
due to a specific plan.
Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans
launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the
camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded
to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one
pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with
starvation in that case?
From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 09:10:51 PDT 1996
Article: 75276 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,
soc.culture.french
Subject: Re: Citizenship for children for non-citizens
Date: 27 Jun 1996 01:30:17 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.mideast:75276 soc.culture.israel:36994
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[email protected] (Alexandre Khalil) wrote:
>
> Salut
>
> If a child is born on French territory to non-citizens, what are the
> conditions under which this child will be granted citizenship by the
> French state.
>
> Merci
>
> alex
>
Perhaps I’m not the best guy who can give you an accurate answer
since I’m living in Canada, but I think that he will receive it
as soon he’ll get 18 years’ old. I’m surprise that no one of them
have respond to that, but if I’m wrong I suppose they will
correct it.
From [email protected] Fri Jun 28 10:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 11257 of soc.history.what-if
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Subject: Hitler’s top mistakes
Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:46:41 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne2.vir.com
[email protected] (Douglas E. Berry) wrote:
>>[email protected] (Helmut Wabnig) writes:
>>
>>Given that the USSR was probably about to attack Germany I
>>don’t think anyone can call this a mistake. The mistake was
>>to get into a position where Stalin was in a position to
>>attack Germany with the support of the West ie to invade
>>Poland in alliance with the Soviets.
>Excuse me? The Red Army was in a near stand-down when Hitler launched his
>assult. It took months of work, horrendous casualties, and a severe winter to
>slow the wehrmacht down. There is absolutley no evidence that Stalin was even
>thinking about attacking Hitler.
>>
The fact that the soviet army was in serious trouble do not mean that
Stalin didn’t prepare soviet Union for a war, this is a false conception.
The American engineer John Scott, who had been working in the USSR
untill 1942, described the Soviet preparation for war as follow:
‘The Russian defense budget doubled almost every year, Huge reserves of
war materials, machines, fuels, food and other supplies were stored
The Red Army grew from about two million in 1938 to 6.5 million men
in the spring of 1940’.
(Scott, John. Jenseits des Ural: Die Kraftquellen der Sowjetunion,
Stockolm p 301, quote by W. Sanning, ‘the dissolution of eastern
european jewry’.
At the end of March 1941, 500,000 reservists were called up and placed
in the military districts bordering the German frontier. Staline put the
majority of the conscript soldiers along the Rumanian border. The oil
fields of Rumania could have give him a big advantage over Germany.
The rumanian espionage learned of Stalin’s remark to the effect that a war
was unavoidable. In April, the Soviets instructed their commisars that
they should be prepare for a cruel and long war with Germany.
(D. Irving, ‘Hitler’s war, p 234-238), 1977)
Both countries had an artificial alliance of circunstances, but the
soviets, with the stories about successives annexions in Poland and
Baltic states, were not peacefull neither, both state were expensionnists.
But if your statement:
>slow the wehrmacht down. There is absolutley no evidence that Stalin was even
>thinking about attacking Hitler.
would be true, than I’d have to conclude that all the USSR spying services
were blind and that they gave a blank check to Hitler. The conflict was
unavoidable, and Staline would have launch his own operation, he knew that
one of the 2 dictators in Europe had to vanish.
From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 07:30:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46639 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if
Subject: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: 27 Jun 1996 20:18:58 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46639 soc.history.what-if:11300
I was too sick to work today and I took a look to some old post in
alt.revisionism.
I’ve not read all the stuff surounding Wiesenthal’s declaration in
1975 but several post however. The way it looks is: Matt Giwer
brought Wiesenthal statement that there was no extermination camp
in Germany, and sevral other guys say ‘ya, but that that doesn’t
mean that there was no gas chambers which were used to kill few
thousand prisonners’.
I hadn’t the time to read those discussion but that’s a bit regretable
since I’ve something to say. First, this admission is older than that,
as Butz pointed it in ‘the hoax of the twentieth century’, page 47,
Stephen S. Pinter, an american lawyer, who was stationed there,
wrote in 1959 to ‘Our Sunday Visitor'(14 june 1959, p.15), a catholic
newspaper:
“I was in Dachau for 17 months after the war, as a U.S. Department
attorney, and can state that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What
was shown to the visitors and sightseers there and erroneously described
as a gas chamber was a crematory. Nor was there a gas chamber in any of
the other concentration camps in Germany. We were told that there was
a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but since it that was in the Russian
zone of occupation , we were not permitted to investigate, since the
Russian would not permit it.
[…]uses the old propaganda myth that million of Jews were killed by the
national socialists. From what I was able to determine during six poswar
years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but
the figure of a million was certanly never reached, I interviewed
thousands of Jews, former inmates of concentration camps in Germany
and Austria, and consider myself as well qualidied as any man on this
subject.”
It is known by several english speaking revisionist that Martin Broszat,
a notorious member of the Munich (Munchen) modern history center sent
a letter to the magazine ‘Die Zeit’, 19 august 1960. The title was
‘no gasing at Dachau’. In this letter, Broszat claimed (in the french
translation I have):
“Neither at Dachau, nor at Bergen-Belsen, nor Buchenwald Jews were
gassed. The gas chamber of Dachau was never finished and use.[…]
The liquidation of Jews by gas took place only in rare places
were the appropriate installation were build, in Poland (but nowhere
in the old Reich): in Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmo,
Belzec[…].
This letter fron Broszat wasn’t du to a sudden moment of honesty,
but rather a catastrophic attempt to repare a mistake. The 12 august
1960, a week before, Die Zeit published a serious attack against
the american general Unrein. The title (‘out’! ‘Weg mit ihm!’)
was follw by a serious critic about some revelations. This general
stated earlier to Lord Russel of Liverpool that the ‘gas chamber of
Dacahau’ was just a shower. The general Unrein stated also that
he had serious doubt about the 6 million figure. Some reader of the
magazine, according to Faurisson, sent letters to say that Mr
Neuhausler gave similar remarks about the Dachau ‘gas chamber’.
Rassinier had already publish several books about his experience as
an inmate in Buchenwald-Dora, and it was highly risky for Broszat
to have an open confrontation with U.S. officers. With the previous
letter from Pinter, it is obvious that such a public debate would have
lead Broszat in a oneway an mine his credibility. Despite Broszat attitude,
as a notorious anti-nazi activist, was to keep silence on the stories
about mass gassing in Germany during the 15 previous years, the best
move was simply to drop it fast at this moment.
No historian questionned Broszat to ask ‘why suddenly the SS
confessions are wrong’, ‘why the witness are suddenly wrong?’,
this version was immediatelly accept, and no one asked Broszat why
the SS confessions and the witness of Auschwitz were more credible.
According to the letter written by Broszat in the context, it is
clear and net that he conceeded the gas chambers in all the old
Reich. However, since revisionnist started to question this Broszat
decision at the end of the 70’s, then suddenly the ‘hollohugers’
started to play with words: Dachau was mention, Bergen-Belsen,
Buchenwald but not Mathausen or some other camps. The concept of
‘the old reich’ is sometimes stretchable, and thus we are told
that in Mathausen or the Hartheim’ castle there was a gas chamber.
In some other cases, when a revisionnist start to claim the the witness
of Buchenwald lied because of Wiesenthal’s book, than a subtility
is introduce between the existence of a gas chamber and an extermination
policy. There was no such subtility in Broszat declaration: he
talked about gas chambers, and he didn’t claim that Hartheim was used
or Mathausen. If he had start to play with subtilities, then his
position was impossible to maintain. This is not the case today:
the head staff of the US army which was there passed away
certanly.
From [email protected] Sat Jun 29 13:21:12 PDT 1996
Article: 46766 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Denier’s True Colours
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:34:23 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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John Morris wrote:
>> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions
>>me in any manner.
>> I will continue to do so until this crap stops.
>> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam
>>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it
>>will get down to cases on my terms.
>> There is nothing in between.
>> I hope you folks come to understand this.
>Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>his terms.
I’ve search ‘spam’ in my dictionnary, not there… However the best I can unders-
tand his statement, he claim that he will continue to defend himsel as far
as people attack him, and that he can ‘get down to cases on his terms’,
something I think I understand as ‘driving the conference the way he want’.
I never eared this expression before, however isn’t Jamie McCarthy who was
refering to alt.revisionism as ‘our’ conference? (yours)
Yes, he’s ‘controlling’ this newsgroup in a certain sense, due to his large
output. What do you think, that alt.revisionism is your exclusive baby?
I don’t know if you are trying to justificate in advance something
that looks like censorship. Any word that he pronounce is taken as a
‘justification’ for something, and I’m not blind. I’ve not the time actually
to involve myself a lot, but you can be sure that if a (second) cut from
his provider happen, the true face of Nizkor will appear. It is not ‘your’
newsgroup, if someone exasperate you as much as you exasperate many people
here, this is your problem.
I’ve read somewhere that some people here consider Giwer as a liar, a troll
and so on. Let’s talk about what I saw on the opposite side now: During
six months I’ve see distorsions, insults and games like:
‘you claim something without prooving it’ while the guy did it a week
before. In your case, I couldn’t say that vulgarity is frequent but
I’ve discover gradually that several of your statements, despite they
appear sincere on a first glance, were based on forgeries that you call
‘errors’. The last game is to take a topic that was already discuss,
the question fuel/heat loss and to claim that my statement was that the
human body fo not provide an exothermic reaction. You know prefectly
that my last statements were not of that nature, but that the heat
production wasn’t compensing heat loss due to the cheminey. You then
take one of M. Stein account from a crematory operator and you claim
that this one was demolishing my statement !!! It wasn’t far from that
and you know it. I’m sometimes tired of this lying game in which you
perform well, but I’m not so surprise. Ya , Giwer is not a triumph of
modesty, he admit it himself. He’s definitivelly not doing anything
that could looks like a war based on the rules of chevilry, he shoot
on the ambulances. This is the thing that exist on the opposite side for
3 years at least. I’ve not see him trying to justificate
in advance your expelling from alt.revisionism however. Let see if you’ll
be able to face the ‘Giwer problem’ in the next months.
From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 46874 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:10:37 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com
“Duncan Coons” <[email protected]> wrote:
> > [email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
> <[email protected]>…
>
> > NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM.
> >
> > To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader:
> > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile –(Page doesn`t exist)
>
> An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don’t
> Nizkorians kill all Giwer’s posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
> Nizkor’s. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
> reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
> newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.
>
Wonderfull!
The only problem is that I would miss Daniel Keren and Mark Van Alstine
postings, and this I don’t know if I’ll support it. I’m reading
_each one_ 5 times a day, and enjoy the style and the originality,
what’s a lost.
Someone may have put something in my coffee.
From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 09:34:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46875 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:18:19 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com
[email protected] (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
> In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, “Duncan Coons”
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Why don’t Nizkorians
> > kill all Giwer’s posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all
> > Nizkor’s. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of
> > reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two
> > newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow.
>
> If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most
> certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers. I pay them quite a
> bit of attention. I’ve carried on discussions with (to name a few)
> Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen,
> Alexander Baron, and I’m trying to discuss something with
> Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard…
>
I’m sure that they will improve crematorie’s performance before
the 22 th century Jamie, don’t turn desespair, with a bit of tenacity…
> Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that
> their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where
> discussion is next to impossible. None of those people is flagrant
> net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble. And all of those
> people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me.
>
> Giwer is just a troll, and he’s out to destroy discussion. There’s
> nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals.
A small question: in your statistics about articles from Giwer
but especially ‘about Giwer’
that monopolized this newsgroup, did you include several of your
statistic reports and R. Green ‘following list’ or do you count
them apart?
From [email protected] Sun Jun 30 15:31:21 PDT 1996
Article: 64746 of soc.culture.french
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,
soc.culture.french
Subject: Re: Citizenship for children for non-citizens
Date: 27 Jun 1996 01:30:17 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<4q[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne37.vir.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.mideast:75276 soc.culture.israel:36994
soc.culture.palestine:17228 soc.culture.french:64746
[email protected] (Alexandre Khalil) wrote:
>
> Salut
>
> If a child is born on French territory to non-citizens, what are the
> conditions under which this child will be granted citizenship by the
> French state.
>
> Merci
>
> alex
Perhaps I’m not the best guy who can give you an accurate answer
since I’m living in Canada, but I think that he will receive it
as soon he’ll get 18 years’ old. I’m surprise that no one of them
have respond to that, but if I’m wrong I suppose they will
correct it.
From [email protected] Sun Jun 2 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 40604 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A revisionist FAQ (2)
Date: 28 May 1996 01:38:26 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 263
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne4.vir.com
