In Dave
Brickner writes:
>It would be an interesting response if the pro-choice (murder) crowd
would be
>willing to rationalize their goals in the light of morality.??
>
Pro-life (pro-lie) morality: “If a woman doesn’t want to be a mother,
then she shouldn’t enjoy sex. (She shouldn’t enjoy it too much anyway.
It isn’t nice.)”
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sat Oct 5 11:10:58 PDT 1996
Article: 475947 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,
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Subject: Re: how do Hillary/Feminists justify the slaughter preborn sisters ???
Date: 5 Oct 1996 03:33:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <534g7g[email protected]> [email protected](Jim Green)
writes:
>
>In <[email protected]> [email protected](Steven
>Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>>
>>In Dave
>>Brickner writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>It would be an interesting response if the pro-choice (murder) crowd
>>would be
>>>willing to rationalize their goals in the light of morality.
>
>That’s easy…. WITH SPIN!
>
>People who want to allow the killing of children are not called
>anti-fetus or anti-child but PRO-Choice. They are rarely even termed
>pro-abortion.
>
>Even abortion is a misnomer. To abort typically means to stop doing
>something you are actively doing. In this case “abortion” is
>proactively stopping and interfering with a naturally occuring and
>independantly occuring process that would ordinarily proceed with the
>involvement but no consious effort on the part of the mother.
>
>People who are interested in the safety of the unborn child are
labeled
>as Fascist, and controlling because they want to prevent selfserving
>behaviour, dangerous to the unborn for a period of nine months, while
>the people who kill for convienince, wiping out entire lives, are
>labeled as victims.
>
>While I do not believe in legislating morality. I believe that those
>who abort deserve no more of my respect than any other child abuser or
>murderer. They are all David Rothenburgs in my book.
>
>The most strange and unexplainable legal part of this, is the idea
that
>a mother can plan and pay for the assistance of another for the death
>of their children; but if she’s pregnant and gets hit by a drunk
driver
>causing a loss of the unborn child, the other driver can be charged
>with vehicular homicide. So the outlook of the legal system is that if
>the child is wanted, he has full human rights and is an irreplaceable
>human being, but purely on the whim of the mother, suddenly becomes
>simply an abnormal growth that falls victim to a sterile and uncaring
>medical procedure.
Spoken like a true woman-hater.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sat Oct 5 11:33:56 PDT 1996
Article: 127525 of soc.culture.african.american
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.usa,alt.discrimination,
alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.elections,
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alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why DO people vote Democrat?
Date: 4 Oct 1996 22:16:55 GMT
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>>: “In all of these nearly 18 years that I have had the pleasure of
>>: my association with Bob Dole, I have never known Bob to give even
>>: a hint of breaking his word, because if ever there was a man in
>>: the U.S. Senate for whom we knew his word is his bond, that is
>>: Bob Dole.”
>>: — Nebraska Sen. James Exon (Congressional Record, 6/11/96)
James Exon is the jerk who wants to censor the net.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sat Oct 5 11:38:02 PDT 1996
Article: 54271 of alt.discrimination
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.usa,alt.discrimination,
alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.elections,
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Subject: Re: Why DO people vote Democrat?
Date: 4 Oct 1996 22:16:55 GMT
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>>: “In all of these nearly 18 years that I have had the pleasure of
>>: my association with Bob Dole, I have never known Bob to give even
>>: a hint of breaking his word, because if ever there was a man in
>>: the U.S. Senate for whom we knew his word is his bond, that is
>>: Bob Dole.”
>>: — Nebraska Sen. James Exon (Congressional Record, 6/11/96)
James Exon is the jerk who wants to censor the net.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sun Oct 6 09:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 476442 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.cabal,
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Subject: Re: Ayn Rand, “objectivism” & Libertarians?…the Cult
Date: 5 Oct 1996 23:47:48 GMT
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In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Crash) writes:
>
>
> Yep, [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote on 3 Oct
>1996 18:56:29 GMT about:
> Re: Ayn Rand, “objectivism” & Libertarians?…the Cult
>
>> [email protected](Jim Austin) writes:
>>> [email protected] (Crash) writes:
>
>>>>>> So? What is this relationship? This
>>>>>>is my take on it: Author Ayn Rand who believed that selfishness
and
>>>>>>egoism were good and moral,
And I agree with her on that point.
and attempted to do her social engineering
>>>>>>in that direction, and created the cult she ironically called
>>>>>>”objectivism”, and that the political arm of this so-called
philosophy
>>>>>>or quasi-religion is called “Libertarianism”. But not
technically.
>>>>>>Not all Libertarians are Randists and vice versa, but I think
that
I don’t consider myself an Objectivist. (E.g., I’m a polytheist, not
an atheist, but I don’t want to get into that here.) I’m speaking for
myself here, not Ayn Rand or anybody else.
> ….
>>>>>>From an essay on the Net: Reason, Egoism, Freedom:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- Ayn Rand summarized her philosophy in three words:
>>>>>>- reason, egoism, freedom. She summarized the antithesis of her
>>>>>>- philosophy in three words as well: mysticism, altruism, force.
>>>>>>[…] Mysticism
>>>>>>- Rand defined mysticism as “the acceptance of allegations
without
>>>>>>- evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence
of
>>>>>>- one’s senses and one’s reason.” Mysticism is the belief that
>>>>>>- there is short-cut to knowledge; the mystic doesn’t bother
with
>
>>>>>>So while scientists can rely on the authority of other sciences,
it
>>>>>>seems that so-called “objectivists” have a pretty small world
>>>>>>limited to what they can directly experience or examine. For
example,
>>>>>>if a biologist needs some info from geology, he just gets it, he
need
>>>>>>not re-invent the wheel. It seems the so-called “objectivists”
can not
>>>>>>rely on scientific authority.
>….
>>>>>>They must live in a world smaller than dittohead’s. One
>>>>>>wonders if this contributes to the growing popularity of:
>>>>>> “everything is only a matter of (political) opinion?”
>>>>>>The ozone hole is a hoax? Tax is theft? Selfishness is moral?
>
>> “Selfishness is immoral” means that it is immoral to breathe, eat,
>>enjoy sex, listen to music, or look at a sunset unless you can prove
>>that you’re doing it “for the good of humanity”.
>
>Rand says selfishness is good. In fact, she derives morality
>from selfishness, and calls altruism immoral. The dictionary
>says “selfish”; is caring *only* for oneself. So your examples fail.
>There is nothing wrong with caring for oneself,
I’m glad you finally acknowledge that.
but *only*
>for oneself?
Not. The word is used, esp. by those who constantly attack
“selfishness”, to mean any egoistic act or any altruistic act that has
an egoistic motive. Communists demand that you give up all your
property and time to the state or the commune and denounce you as
selfish if you refuse. Nazis demand that everything be sacrificed to
“the purity of the race”. The “moral majority” constantly denounce
women as selfish who demand the same choices in career, sexuality,
etc., that men have and who refuse to conform to “traditional family
roles”. Anti-porn pseudo-“feminists” demand that men (and women too)
give up their selfish sexual desires. Guilt-manipulators whine: “You’re
so selfish. You won’t give up your happiness to serve _me_.” or “Who
are you to hold on to your own beliefs. How can you be right and
everyone else wrong? You’re so selfish.” You yourself have,
unfortunately, written post after post saying that the individual
exists for the sake of the species, which I flat deny.
Ayn Rand once gave an excellent illustration of exactly what I mean by
selfishness: If you had to choose between saving your wife’s life and
saving the lives of ten other women, the selfish man would save his
wife. I’m proud to be selfish.
>>–
>>[email protected]
>>”The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
>> wanting to be by oneself,
>> being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich
Nietzsche
>
>Some have said that Nietzsche is real philosophy, and Randism
>is akin to dittoheadism.
I’m not a dittohead. I think for myself. (I do prefer Nietzsche to
Rand, as he was a more complex thinker in many ways.)
Philosophy for those not able to discern
>her rhetorical tricks. I’ve said that Randism is Limbaughtomyville
>served in a book. Populist cults that derive their popularity via
>very good “approach and presentation”, the pitch.
>
>Some say this is good, she brings philosophy to Joe Sixpack, and
>when they grow philosophically, they will see her for what she is.
>My concern is for those who approach her dogmatically, as a cult.
I don’t.
>Almost by definition, they will not seek out other philosophies,
>and will not achieve this growth. They will be stuck in the mean,
>egoistic world of a spoiled child..
>
>Many religions bad-mouth other religions. Rand has made some
>pretty wild and unsupported disparaging remarks about most other
>philosophers. Both cases I see as the preservation mechanisms of
>dogma.
>
>>>>>>- Ayn Rand summarized her philosophy in three words:
>>>>>>- reason, egoism, freedom.
>
>Yet that is not what we see when we look at her followers. We see
>dogma, egoism, and all the freedom you can rent or buy.
>
>>>>>>- She summarized the antithesis of her
>>>>>>- philosophy in three words as well: mysticism, altruism, force.
>
>–Doug
>
>Re: In a Libertarian world, Earth is scraped bare for the dollar
> “In a Libertarian world, the right to pollute can be
> purchased by the Rich Boys. And why not?”
> — Lazarus.Long, 31 Aug 96 16:20:50 —
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sun Oct 6 09:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 476498 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,
dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.
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Subject: Re: how do Hillary/Feminists justify the slaughter preborn sisters ???
Date: 6 Oct 1996 01:20:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
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31090
In <53[email protected]> [email protected](Jim
Green) writes:
>
>In <53[email protected]> [email protected](Steven
>Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>> Spoken like a true woman-hater.
>
>When logic fails, I guess a label will have to do!
>You fail to take into consideration that half the babies saved, if pro
>life/pro child forces have their way, will be women.
Born to spend their lives as breeding machines.
>A perfect example of the “spin” I was talking about. While I want to
>save these baby women and you want to kill then at will (maybe just
>because you’d rather have a boy)
No.
, somehow I end up the women hater.
>
>If I hated them, I’d want to kill them at birth…just like you!
You like them — “in their place”.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sun Oct 6 15:26:54 PDT 1996
Article: 96272 of alt.conspiracy
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.
clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.
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Subject: Re: Turncoat “libertarians” are better off voting for Bill than for Bob
(if they can’t do the right thing)
Date: 6 Oct 1996 20:52:15 GMT
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87575
In [email protected] (Max Kennedy) writes:
>
>[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote:
>
>> Stalin fought Hitler in World War II.
>
>Only after Hitler backstabbed him. Before that, they were allies.
>
>Max Kennedy
Quite true. A “politically incorrect” fact not too much mentioned
today: Hitler is blamed for starting that war by invading Poland.
Actually, both Hitler and Stalin started it by agreeing to split up
Poland between them. So why isn’t Stalin also blamed?
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sun Oct 6 16:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 96283 of alt.conspiracy
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.
clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.
objectivism
Subject: Re: Turncoat “libertarians” are better off voting for Bill than for Bob
(if they can’t do the right thing)
Date: 6 Oct 1996 21:59:15 GMT
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In [email protected]
(Mike Schneider) writes:
>
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote:
>
>> >> > Whatever you say about
>> >> >Dornan, he’s not an “establishment” republican like Dole,
>> >>
>> >> Dornan is a totalitarian scumbag who wants Big Brother in our
>> >> bedrooms. He’s no more “libertarian” than Josef Stalin.
>> >
>> > Perhaps, but he’s LESS of a totalitarian scumbag than either
>> Clinton or Dole,
>>
>> No, he’s not.
>
> Other “totalitarian” policies being the same, Dornan votes against
tax
>hikes and Clinton and Dole vote for them, so, he’s less of one.
Oh, goody!! There’s a cop in my bedroom, but my taxes are lower this
year. I’m FREE!! WHOOPEEEE!!!
No thank you.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 10:52:22 PDT 1996
Article: 477690 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,dc.politics,
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alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,
alt.current-events.usa,soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.mens-rights
Subject: Re: Our P.C. Military….
Date: 7 Oct 1996 21:58:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <50nevn$r[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<5338[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca1-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Oct 07 2:58:03 PM PDT 1996
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alt.politics.libertarian:218520 alt.politics.democrats.d:132306
alt.politics.correct:142764 alt.politics.clinton:307717
alt.impeach.clinton:62240 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:390459 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:
43697 alt.current-events.usa:31220 soc.men:124652 alt.feminism:129920
alt.mens-rights:21241
The very title of this thread is a lie. If by “P.C.” you mean
feminist, then why not just come out and say feminist? Ah, but “Our
Feminist Military” wouldn’t carry all the same connotations as “Our
P.C. Military”, would it?
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 10:52:23 PDT 1996
Article: 477693 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.clinton,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa
Subject: Re: how do Hillary/Feminists justify the slaughter preborn sisters ???
Date: 7 Oct 1996 21:46:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <32541D[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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alt.impeach.clinton:62241 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:390462
alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:43698 alt.current-events.usa:31221
In <[email protected]>
[email protected](william m hebler ) writes:
>
>In Morgoth
> writes:
>>
>>I do know. Birth control is cheap and easy to get.
>>
>>There is condoms for the guys.
>>Norplant (its a spiderly looking thing in a womens arm that
>>dispenses hormones to keep a women from being able to become
>>pregnant, I think it not the only one, it take surgery but it is
>>cheap last I heard).
>>The Pill
>>IUDs (Intra Uninary devices?).
>>The sponge
>>and a few other I forget.
>
>you forgot not having sex…or is that not an option anymore?
You suffer from clitoris envy. Get a dick.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 10:52:24 PDT 1996
Article: 477713 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.president.clinton,
alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,
talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 7 Oct 1996 22:01:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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alt.society.conservatism:54581 talk.politics.guns:323138 talk.politics.
libertarian:130437 talk.politics.misc:477713
In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Michael
Zarlenga) writes:
>
>Mitchell Holman ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Instead of “rephrasing” the ACLU position, why not post it here
>: for all to see in it’s *original* form?
>
>It can be found (with some digging) at http://www.aclu.org (the
>server is not responding right now)
>
>Their position flies in the face of the words of the amendment and
>the related writings of the authors of the Constitution about the
>amendment.
>
>The ACLU’s position is that the 2nd Amendment is primarily a COL-
>LECTIVE, not individual right. That “the people” in the 2nd Amend-
>ment are not the same “people” in the rest of the Bill of Rights.
>
>: Believe it or not, not all of us need the “help” of your
re-phrasing…
>
>Well, Ripley, go see for yourself. I gave you the URL.
>
>– Mike Zarlenga
> finger [email protected] for PGP public key
> Harry Browne (Libertarian) for President in 1996
That the 2nd Amendment protects only a government “right” and not an
_individual_ right to keep and bear arms is all of a piece with the
argument that the 1st amendment protects only “political” speech and
not “pornographic” speech. Both are total lies.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 11:09:41 PDT 1996
Article: 323138 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.president.clinton,
alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,
talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 7 Oct 1996 22:01:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca1-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Oct 07 5:01:40 PM CDT 1996
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alt.society.conservatism:54581 talk.politics.guns:323138 talk.politics.
libertarian:130437 talk.politics.misc:477713
In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Michael
Zarlenga) writes:
>
>Mitchell Holman ([email protected]) wrote:
>: Instead of “rephrasing” the ACLU position, why not post it here
>: for all to see in it’s *original* form?
>
>It can be found (with some digging) at http://www.aclu.org (the
>server is not responding right now)
>
>Their position flies in the face of the words of the amendment and
>the related writings of the authors of the Constitution about the
>amendment.
>
>The ACLU’s position is that the 2nd Amendment is primarily a COL-
>LECTIVE, not individual right. That “the people” in the 2nd Amend-
>ment are not the same “people” in the rest of the Bill of Rights.
>: Believe it or not, not all of us need the “help” of your
re-phrasing…
>
>Well, Ripley, go see for yourself. I gave you the URL.
>
>–
>– Mike Zarlenga
> finger [email protected] for PGP public key
> Harry Browne (Libertarian) for President in 1996
That the 2nd Amendment protects only a government “right” and not an
_individual_ right to keep and bear arms is all of a piece with the
argument that the 1st amendment protects only “political” speech and
not “pornographic” speech. Both are total lies.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 17:27:57 PDT 1996
Article: 478436 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.president.clinton,
alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,
talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:36:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca6-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 08 4:36:06 PM CDT 1996
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In Randolph Langley
writes:
>
>[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>> That the 2nd Amendment protects only a government “right” and not
an
>> _individual_ right to keep and bear arms is all of a piece with the
>> argument that the 1st amendment protects only “political” speech and
>> not “pornographic” speech. Both are total lies.
>>
>
>If the people in the Second amendment refers to the state, then the
>people of the First does also: therefore, only the state has the right
>to free speech, free assembly, or free exercise of religion. I guess
>that only the state has the right to be secure in its home, or be held
>to answer for a capital crime, or the right to a speedy trial.
>
>Yeah, right.
>
>This idea of ” people == state ” in the Second amendment, and
>” people == individuals ” in all of the others is completely
nitwitted.
>
>rdl
Precisely.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 19:15:58 PDT 1996
Article: 323581 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,
alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,
alt.president.clinton,alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,
talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:36:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca6-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 08 4:36:06 PM CDT 1996
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alt.society.conservatism:54698 talk.politics.guns:323581 talk.politics.
libertarian:130648 talk.politics.misc:478436
In Randolph Langley
writes:
>
>[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>> That the 2nd Amendment protects only a government “right” and not
an
>> _individual_ right to keep and bear arms is all of a piece with the
>> argument that the 1st amendment protects only “political” speech and
>> not “pornographic” speech. Both are total lies.
>>
>
>If the people in the Second amendment refers to the state, then the
>people of the First does also: therefore, only the state has the right
>to free speech, free assembly, or free exercise of religion. I guess
>that only the state has the right to be secure in its home, or be held
>to answer for a capital crime, or the right to a speedy trial.
>
>Yeah, right.
>
>This idea of ” people == state ” in the Second amendment, and
>” people == individuals ” in all of the others is completely
nitwitted.
>
>rdl
Precisely.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 21:38:10 PDT 1996
Article: 478593 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.president.clinton,
alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,
talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:49:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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libertarian:130696 talk.politics.misc:478593
In <53du[email protected]> [email protected] (Freedom
Fighter) writes:
>Don Cline, WB6OCO
>PGP Public Key available by request.
>===============================================================
>God made Man (and Woman). Sam Colt made Man (and Woman) Equal.
>===============================================================
>If government can do it to THEM, government can do it to YOU.
>===============================================================
As a feminist, I totally agree with _that_. To hell with gun control
and Big Brother government!
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Tue Oct 8 21:38:11 PDT 1996
Article: 478597 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.radio,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.republican,
talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,ca.politics,az.politics,
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alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,
alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,
Subject: Re: 50 States or 50 Dictatorships? (why did we fight the Civil War?)
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:58:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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alt.philosophy.objectivism:87819 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:391063
alt.society.conservatism:54729
In Tony
Grundon writes:
“State’s rights” is a _fraud_ when it comes to abortion, pornography,
guns, etc.. It means that state legislatures own us. We are their
property. It does _not_ reduce government in any way.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Wed Oct 9 10:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 478661 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.president.clinton,
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talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:51:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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talk.politics.libertarian:130712 talk.politics.misc:478661
In <[email protected]> Lawrence Kennon
writes:
>
>Freedom Fighter wrote:
>> > There is nothing in the second amendment that
>> >guarantees your right to own an Uzi. Sorry…
>>
>> There is nothing in the Second Amendment or anywhere in the U.S.
>> Constitution delegating any authority to the federal government to
>> tell me I can’t either.
>
>And the above is a very important point. In a constitutional
>republic — the form of government we are supposed to have in
>the United States of America — the government must justify
>_every_ claim to a power to proscribe or regulate anything
>by showing where it is granted that power in the constitution.
>Period. That is how it is supposed to work. That is what the
>term “limited government” means. If we fail to hold government
>to that standard then what we have is _unlimited_ government
>and to hell with any concept of having a constitution.
>
>lk
Precisely.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Wed Oct 9 10:09:56 PDT 1996
Article: 478746 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.cabal,
alt.philosophy.objectivism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,
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Subject: Re: Ayn Rand, “objectivism” & Libertarians?…the Cult
Date: 3 Oct 1996 18:56:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <52pv0p$d[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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alt.christnet.philosophy:16824 talk.religion.misc:154146 alt.christnet:112764
In <52r[email protected]> [email protected](Jim Austin)
writes:
>
>In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Crash) writes:
>>>>They must live in a world smaller than dittohead’s. One
>>>>wonders if this contributes to the growing popularity of:
>>>> “everything is only a matter of (political) opinion?”
>>>>The ozone hole is a hoax? Tax is theft? Selfishness is moral?
“Selfishness is immoral” means that it is immoral to breathe, eat,
enjoy sex, listen to music, or look at a sunset unless you can prove
that you’re doing it “for the good of humanity”.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Wed Oct 9 10:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 323665 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,
alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,
alt.president.clinton,alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,
talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:49:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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talk.politics.libertarian:130696 talk.politics.misc:478593
In <53du[email protected]> [email protected] (Freedom
Fighter) writes:
>Don Cline, WB6OCO
>PGP Public Key available by request.
>===============================================================
>God made Man (and Woman). Sam Colt made Man (and Woman) Equal.
>===============================================================
>If government can do it to THEM, government can do it to YOU.
>===============================================================
As a feminist, I totally agree with _that_. To hell with gun control
and Big Brother government!
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Wed Oct 9 10:46:38 PDT 1996
Article: 323693 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,
alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,
alt.president.clinton,alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,
talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:51:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <538vqi$bj[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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talk.politics.misc:478661
In <[email protected]> Lawrence Kennon
writes:
>
>Freedom Fighter wrote:
>> > There is nothing in the second amendment that
>> >guarantees your right to own an Uzi. Sorry…
>>
>> There is nothing in the Second Amendment or anywhere in the U.S.
>> Constitution delegating any authority to the federal government to
>> tell me I can’t either.
>
>And the above is a very important point. In a constitutional
>republic — the form of government we are supposed to have in
>the United States of America — the government must justify
>_every_ claim to a power to proscribe or regulate anything
>by showing where it is granted that power in the constitution.
>Period. That is how it is supposed to work. That is what the
>term “limited government” means. If we fail to hold government
>to that standard then what we have is _unlimited_ government
>and to hell with any concept of having a constitution.
>
>lk
Precisely.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 17:58:29 PDT 1996
Article: 480340 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.conservatism,
talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 10 Oct 1996 21:06:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <53e7j2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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In <53he[email protected]> [email protected] (don) writes:
Milt Shook’s arguments confirmed a suspicion I have had for a long
time: Behind the gun-controllers’ lie (that the 2nd Amendment protects
only a “collective right” rather than an individual right to keep and
bear arms) lies a more general hostility to the very concept of
individual rights. Thanks for making that explicit, Milt.
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 17:58:30 PDT 1996
Article: 480347 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.radio,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.republican,
talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,ca.politics,az.politics,
alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,
alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.correct,
alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,
alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,
Subject: Re: 50 States or 50 Dictatorships? (why did we fight the Civil War?)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 21:15:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca4-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 10 4:15:17 PM CDT 1996
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In [email protected] (Mike Best) writes:
>
>In article <[email protected]>
[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>>In Tony
>>Grundon writes:
>> “State’s rights” is a _fraud_ when it comes to abortion,
pornography,
>>guns, etc.. It means that state legislatures own us. We are their
>>property. It does _not_ reduce government in any way.
READ the Constitution. Esp., read the 9th _and_ 10th Amendments. Also
read the 14th Amendment. Governments do _not_ have rights. Only
_individuals_ have rights. Governments have only _delegated_ and
stringently _limited_ powers.
As for your suggestion: no, I’m not going to move from state to state
until all 50 turn socialist. I’m going to stay where I am and defend my
freedom here.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 17:58:31 PDT 1996
Article: 480354 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.radio,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.republican,
talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,ca.politics,az.politics,
alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.
constitution,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.correct,alt.philosophy.
objectivism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.
usa.newt-gingrich,
Subject: Re: 50 States or 50 Dictatorships? (why did we fight the Civil War?)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 21:25:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca4-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 10 4:25:30 PM CDT 1996
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In [email protected] (Mike Best) writes:
>
>In article <[email protected]>
[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) writes:
>>In Tony
>>Grundon writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> “State’s rights” is a _fraud_ when it comes to abortion,
pornography,
>>guns, etc.. It means that state legislatures own us. We are their
>>property. It does _not_ reduce government in any way.
>
>Yet another fine example of why our education system is a failure.
>
>I suppose it isn’t worth the effort to explain to someone, with the
>depth that you display, the federal principle in the Constitution
>much less the original meaning behind the 10th amendment.
It certainly isn’t anything like this: “D-uh. Federal government =
Big, Bad, Evil. State government = God over our lives.”
>Suffice it to say that there is nowhere in the Constitution a
statement
>that Medicare nor Welfare are federal responsibilities. Any
entitlement
>is an invention of the federal government and while it is not
unconstitu-
>tional to run a federal welfare program neither is it unconstitutional
to
>run welfare at the state level.
Welfare is not a right. Property is a right (see the 14th Amendment).
>Further, at least when something is done at the state level that you
>disagree with you have the option to move to another state. You have
>no such ability when the resolution is at the federal level, where can
>you run?
Keep running from state to state ’till every state turns socialist. No
thank you.
>Mike Best
>[email protected]
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 17:58:32 PDT 1996
Article: 480396 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.conservatism,
talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 10 Oct 1996 22:04:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <53e7j2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca4-12.ix.netcom.com
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talk.politics.guns:324594 talk.politics.libertarian:131218 talk.politics.misc:
480396
In <5[email protected]> [email protected] (Brian Carey) writes:
>
>Milt ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>: We can yell, “Clinton is a f***face outside until we’re blue in the
face,
>: so long as we don’t do it in a threatening manner. Collective right
means
>: that I can do it and YOU can do it and HE can do it and SHE can do
it.
>
>Using that logic: I can own a handgun and YOU can own a handgun and
SHE
>can own a handgun….
Precisely.
>Brian M. Carey –> [email protected]
>
>”Christianity is part of the common law of England.”
> — Blackstone, “Commentaries on the Laws of
> England,” Book IV Ch. 4, comment
>
>”The laws and institutions of all the States are built on the
foundation
>of reverence for Christianity.” —Supreme Court Justice Wm. Strong,
> “Two Lectures upon the Relations
of
> Civil Law to Church Property,” p.
32.
>
>”Christianity is and always has been a part of the Common Law of this
>State. Christianity without the spiritual artillery of European
countries
>- not Christianity founded on any particular religious tenets – not
>Christianity with an established church and titles and spiritual
courts,
>but Christianity with liberty and conscience to all men.”
> — Supreme Court of PA
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 19:45:24 PDT 1996
Article: 324576 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.conservatism,
talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 10 Oct 1996 21:06:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <53e7j2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca4-12.ix.netcom.com
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In <53he[email protected]> [email protected] (don) writes:
Milt Shook’s arguments confirmed a suspicion I have had for a long
time: Behind the gun-controllers’ lie (that the 2nd Amendment protects
only a “collective right” rather than an individual right to keep and
bear arms) lies a more general hostility to the very concept of
individual rights. Thanks for making that explicit, Milt.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Thu Oct 10 19:45:26 PDT 1996
Article: 324594 of talk.politics.guns
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,
alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,
alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,
talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: ACLU & the 2nd Amendment
Date: 10 Oct 1996 22:04:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <53e7j2[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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talk.politics.guns:324594 talk.politics.libertarian:131218
talk.politics.misc:480396
In <5[email protected]> [email protected] (Brian Carey) writes:
>
>Milt ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>: We can yell, “Clinton is a f***face outside until we’re blue in the
face,
>: so long as we don’t do it in a threatening manner. Collective right
means
>: that I can do it and YOU can do it and HE can do it and SHE can do
it.
>
>Using that logic: I can own a handgun and YOU can own a handgun and
SHE
>can own a handgun….
Precisely.
>Brian M. Carey –> [email protected]
>
>”Christianity is part of the common law of England.”
> — Blackstone, “Commentaries on the Laws of
> England,” Book IV Ch. 4, comment
>
>”The laws and institutions of all the States are built on the
foundation
>of reverence for Christianity.” —Supreme Court Justice Wm. Strong,
> “Two Lectures upon the Relations
of
> Civil Law to Church Property,” p.
32.
>
>”Christianity is and always has been a part of the Common Law of this
>State. Christianity without the spiritual artillery of European
countries
>- not Christianity founded on any particular religious tenets – not
>Christianity with an established church and titles and spiritual
courts,
>but Christianity with liberty and conscience to all men.”
> — Supreme Court of PA
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Fri Oct 11 09:44:19 PDT 1996
Article: 97826 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.usa.republican,
alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Why this Libertarian will vote Republican in November
Date: 11 Oct 1996 04:36:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <52f[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<52pgr6$kao@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <[email protected]>
<533qj3$h[email protected]> <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca6-45.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 10 11:36:43 PM CDT 1996
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alt.conspiracy:97826
In <53[email protected]> [email protected] (Timothy F. Watson, Sr.)
writes:
>
>[email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote:
>
>>In [email protected] (Weed Eater
>>(munch munch)) writes:
>
>
>>>All that said I will vote Libertarian for senate, but that is
because
>>I
>>>am represented by Jesse Helms and thus have no choice :).
>> Good. Because Jesse Helms is a despicable totalitarian scumbag.
>What this poster means is that Jesse Helms has some strongly held
>views which he acts upon and with which this poster very strongly
>disagrees. Helms is no more a “totaliarian” than is Teddy Kennedy or
>anyone on else on the far left who holds and acts upon strongly held
>views. But it a mark of intolerance to label those with whom you
>disagree with such epithets.
Quite true. I _am_ intolerant of scumbags like Helms who would
extinguish my freedoms.
>But let’s get back to Slick Willie and his sleaze and corruption.
>Tim Watson
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Fri Oct 11 10:48:31 PDT 1996
Article: 480626 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.cabal,
alt.philosophy.objectivism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,
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alt.economics.austrian-school,ca.politics,tx.politics,ny.politics,
alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,talk.politics.misc,
talk.philosophy.misc,alt.christnet.philosophy,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand, “objectivism” & Libertarians?…the Cult
Date: 11 Oct 1996 03:39:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 248
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <4rl35v[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In <[email protected]> [email protected] (Crash) writes:
>
>
> Yep, [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote on 5 Oct
>1996 23:47:48 GMT about:
> Re: Ayn Rand, “objectivism” & Libertarians?…the Cult
>
>>[email protected] (Crash) writes:
>>> Yep, [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote:
>>>> [email protected](Jim Austin) writes:
>>>>> [email protected] (Crash) writes:
>>>
>>>>>>>> So? What is this relationship? This
>>>>>>>>is my take on it: Author Ayn Rand who believed
>>>>>>>>that selfishness and egoism were good and moral,
>
>> And I agree with her on that point.
>
>>>>>>>> and attempted to do her social engineering in that
>>>>>>>>direction, and created the cult she ironically called
>>>>>>>>”objectivism”, and that the political arm of this
>>>>>>>>so-called philosophy or quasi-religion
>>>>>>>>is called “Libertarianism”. But not technically.
>>>>>>>> Not all Libertarians are Randists and vice versa,
>>>>>>>> but I think that
>
>> I don’t consider myself an Objectivist. (E.g., I’m a polytheist, not
>>an atheist, but I don’t want to get into that here.) I’m speaking for
>>myself here, not Ayn Rand or anybody else.
>
>Perhaps Objectivism is not your religion, but you do sound
>generally like a Randist.
>
>>> ….
>>>>>>>>From an essay on the Net: Reason, Egoism, Freedom:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- Ayn Rand summarized her philosophy in three words:
>>>>>>>>- reason, egoism, freedom. She summarized the antithesis of
her
>>>>>>>>- philosophy in three words as well: mysticism, altruism,
force.
>>>>>>>>[…] Mysticism
>>>>>>>>- Rand defined mysticism as “the acceptance of
>>>>>>>>- allegations without evidence or proof,
>>>>>>>>- either apart from or against the evidence of
>>>>>>>>- one’s senses and one’s reason.” Mysticism is the
>>>>>>>>- belief that there is short-cut to knowledge; the
>>>>>>>>- mystic doesn’t bother with
>>>
>Crash wrote:
>>>>>>>>So while scientists can rely on the authority of
>>>>>>>>other sciences, it seems that so-called
>>>>>>>>”objectivists” have a pretty small world limited to
>>>>>>>>what they can directly experience or examine. For
>>>>>>>>example, if a biologist needs some info from
>>>>>>>>geology, he just gets it, he need not re-invent the
>>>>>>>>wheel. It seems the so-called “objectivists” can not
>>>>>>>>rely on scientific authority.
>>>….
>>>>>>>>They must live in a world smaller than dittohead’s. One
>>>>>>>>wonders if this contributes to the growing popularity of:
>>>>>>>> “everything is only a matter of (political) opinion?”
>>>>>>>>The ozone hole is a hoax? Tax is theft? Selfishness is moral?
>>>
>>>> “Selfishness is immoral” means that it is immoral to breathe, eat,
>>>>enjoy sex, listen to music, or look at a sunset unless you can
prove
>>>>that you’re doing it “for the good of humanity”.
>>>
>Crash wrote:
>>>Rand says selfishness is good. In fact, she derives morality
>>>from selfishness, and calls altruism immoral. The dictionary
>>>says “selfish”; is caring *only* for oneself. So your examples
>>> fail. There is nothing wrong with caring for oneself,
>
>> I’m glad you finally acknowledge that.
>
>Finally? You seem to be tilting at strawmen.
>
>>> but *only* for oneself?
>
>> Not. The word is used, esp. by those who constantly attack
>>”selfishness”, to mean any egoistic act or any altruistic act that
has
>>an egoistic motive.
>
>You attack a Randish strawman.
I don’t think so.
>I have no idea, but I suspect Rand was attacking Catholic’s or
>Jew’s perpetual guilt trips; the need to make a doormat out of
>yourself; the Joan of Arc thing.
Joan of Arc was the very opposite of a doormat and was an archetype of
what I mean by selfishness: she fought courageously for _her own_
values.
My wild guess is; she had
>some bad experiences with it growing up. She turned that into
>a monster by assuming the whole world was that way. You’re;
>”finally”, above suggests you may have a similar world view.
>
>But the objective fact is; the dictionary says
>”selfish”; is caring *only* for oneself. Rand
>explains clearly; that is the moral criterion.
>
>Below, you list some examples of how altruism have
>been abused, often under selfish false pretenses:
>
>> Communists demand that you give up all your
>>property and time to the state or the commune and denounce you as
>>selfish if you refuse. Nazis demand that everything be sacrificed to
>>”the purity of the race”. The “moral majority” constantly denounce
>>women as selfish who demand the same choices in career, sexuality,
>>etc., that men have and who refuse to conform to “traditional family
>>roles”. Anti-porn pseudo-“feminists”
Note: by _pseudo_, I mean that they reinforce all the very _worst_
stereotypes about women (as passive, weak, helpless “oppressed
victims”, ad nauseum).
demand that men (and women too)
>>give up their selfish sexual desires. Guilt-manipulators whine:
“You’re
>>so selfish. You won’t give up your happiness to serve _me_.” or “Who
>>are you to hold on to your own beliefs. How can you be right and
>>everyone else wrong? You’re so selfish.”
>
>And everything from God, to apple pie and mother’s milk
>have been abused in the same way by despots. Does this
>mean that because they been used as tools of evil, that
>the concepts are evil? That is Rand’s unreasonable argument.
>> You yourself have,
>>unfortunately, written post after post saying that the individual
>>exists for the sake of the species, which I flat deny.
>
>And I flat out deny saying that. What I said was, in conflict
>resolution, human civilization and the human species takes
>ultimate precedence over an individual’s whims or
>convenience. Self defense. Rand’s strawmen would have me
>goose-stepping into your livingroom or bedroom to GET you.
> Very emotional, very frightening images these guys paint.
>They feed on that fear. But where’s the beef? Where’s the
>logic?
>
>> Ayn Rand once gave an excellent illustration of exactly what I mean
by
>>selfishness: If you had to choose between saving your wife’s life and
>>saving the lives of ten other women, the selfish man would save his
>>wife. I’m proud to be selfish.
>
>Appealing to the low emotions is one of Rand’s trademarks.
>Notice your (Rand’s) logical disjunction. You move
>seamlessly from normal behavior (saving your wife) to being
>proud to be concerned ONLY with yourself. She is quite
>tricky. Do you see the logical fallacy?
I don’t accept the premise that love for one’s spouse is in any way
“lower” than love for ten total strangers.
>>>>–
>>>>[email protected]
>>>>”The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
>>>> wanting to be by oneself,
>>>> being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich
>>Nietzsche
>>>
>>>Some have said that Nietzsche is real philosophy, and Randism
>>>is akin to dittoheadism.
>
>> I’m not a dittohead. I think for myself.
>
>Laughingggggg!!! It probably means nothing here,
>but that is what all Rush’s dittohead parrots say.
>He tells them how original they are.
Rush Limbaugh is a clown and phony with his head stuck up the rectal
canals of Dornan, Helms, Pat Robertson, etc., all of whom I despise.
>>(I do prefer Nietzsche to
>>Rand, as he was a more complex thinker in many ways.)
>
>It’s been said that Randism is just a fancy way to
>say; “if it feels good, do it.” That morality has
>always had a following. Like Rush, she wraps not-so-
>noble ideas in noble sounding words and concepts.
>That also happens in every nasty war.
>
>>> Philosophy for those not able to discern
>>>her rhetorical tricks. I’ve said that Randism is Limbaughtomyville
>>>served in a book. Populist cults that derive their popularity via
>>>very good “approach and presentation”, the pitch.
>>>
>>>Some say this is good, she brings philosophy to Joe Sixpack, and
>>>when they grow philosophically, they will see her for what she is.
>>>My concern is for those who approach her dogmatically, as a cult.
>
>> I don’t.
>
>You do seem to be searching for the truth, and speaking
>your mind rather than acting dogmatically. That is not
>very common.
>
>>>Almost by definition, they will NOT seek out other philosophies,
>>>and will not achieve this growth. They will be stuck in the mean,
>>>egoistic world of a spoiled child..
>>>
>>>Many religions bad-mouth other religions. Rand has made some
>>>pretty wild and unsupported disparaging remarks about most other
>>>philosophers. Both cases I see as the preservation mechanisms of
>>>dogma.
>>>
>>>>>>>>- Ayn Rand summarized her philosophy in three words:
>>>>>>>>- reason, egoism, freedom.
>>>
>>>Yet that is not what we see when we look at her followers. We see
>>>dogma, egoism, and all the freedom you can rent or buy.
>>>
>>>>>>>>- She summarized the antithesis of her
>>>>>>>>- philosophy in three words as well: mysticism, altruism,
force.
>>>
>>>–Doug
>>>
>>>Re: In a Libertarian world, Earth is scraped bare for the dollar
>>> “In a Libertarian world, the right to pollute can be
>>> purchased by the Rich Boys. And why not?”
>>> — Lazarus.Long, 31 Aug 96 16:20:50 —
>
> Re: Morality of Taxation (from the beginning)
>”I am my own god.” — Randist; Nicholas Rich, 04 Sep 96 04:21:03 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Views of life: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>Religious: God created Man in his own image.
>Atheist: Man created God in his own image.
>”Objectivist”: Ayn Rand created God in my image. Nee-ner, nee-ner.
>
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Fri Oct 11 10:48:32 PDT 1996
Article: 480836 of talk.politics.misc
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
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_I_ own my life. State legislatures don’t own it.
—
[email protected]
“The concept of ‘greatness’ entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone…” -Friedrich Nietzsche
“Identity is shaped through confict and opposition.” -Camille Paglia
From [email protected] Sat Oct 5 11:10:57 PDT 1996
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From: [email protected](Steven Malcolm Anderson)
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