Zenoink wrote:
> I would like very much to clarify for myself how Irving gained a reputation>
of anti-semitism (through his work or his own political actions).
>
> Thank you for any further help along these lines.
>
Kay, While the phrase ‘anti-Semitism’ is interpreted differently by
different people, I believe David Irving has met the minimum definition
of that phrase by his escalating obsession and dislike for the
collective group “Jews”. Of course, he, himself, disputes this. I
don’t find that surprising since I’ve never heard a definition of
‘anti-Semite” that included the person constructing the definition.
I’ve heard Mr. Irving speak and read his writings and one theme is
constant–Jews. He jokes about them, calls them “The Traditional
Enemy,” and blames them for many
of his personal troubles.
Normally, I say–Fine. Go for it, David. You are entitled to feel
however you like. But when a writer sets himself up as the arbiter of
truth and makes unfounded accusations under the guise of “history,” I
get my hackles up. He is a self-appointed historian. He should be more
objective.
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Wed Nov 13 06:28:37 PST 1996
Article: 79316 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:19:20 -0500
Organization: Freelance Soccer Mom
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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To: Jean-Francois Beaulieu
Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
>
> One funny argument to proove the extermination charge for Treblinka is
> Suchomel’s testimony. It is claim that Suchomel was (falsely) promised
> anonymity in exchange for this interview. In the interview ‘Suchomel’ ask
> himself to not mention his name. I’ve see most of the movie and it is
> strange that only in Suchomel’ interview we have a bluerred picture were
> the face of the man is not easilly recognizable. I suppose that the claim
> is that Suchomel was filmed without being aware of it and this can explain
> the poor quality of the image.
“The claim is”? What claim? By whom? J-F, don’t let’s be silly about
this. No one claimed that Mr. Suchomel was not aware he was being
filmed. You’re making things up! I realize English is not your first
language, but even YOu can easily check to see if Mr. Suchomel recanted
at any time after the film came out. He didn’t.
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Wed Nov 13 06:52:51 PST 1996
Article: 79376 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust redefined WAS Re: Mr. Raven, please explain the contradiction
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:40:03 -0500
Organization: Freelance Soccer Mom
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <19961111203[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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To: [email protected]
Greg Raven wrote:
>
> Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> > You say (1) “6 million … is an irresponsible exaggeration,” (2) “no
> > Nazi plan,” and (3) “no Nazi gas chambers.” You’re being quite
> > consistent, since you explained your views in almost exactly the same
> > words on your first big entrance to the Internet, on Hitler’s birthday,
> > 1994.
>
> It never fails to amaze me to learn how closely people of your sexual
> preference keep track of Hitler’s birthday. I have no record of my first
> day on the Internet, and I couldn’t care less about Hitler’s birthday.
>
Well! That’s novel, even for YOU, Greg! What do ou know about Jamie’s
‘sexual preference’ and what does that have to do with his noticing that
you happened to begin posting on Hitler’s birthday (if indeed you did,
which I have not verified)? I await you answer with bated breath . . .
> > The problem, Mr. Raven, is that you also define the term Holocaust as
> > (1) “the murder of six million Jews,” (2) “as a central act of state by
> > the Nazis,” (3) “many in gas chambers.”
> > (snip)
>
> I do? If you were paying as much attention to what I actually say and
> write on this subject as you do to Hitler’s birthday, you would have
> long ago discovered that this is NOT my definition of “the Holocaust.” I
> direct your attention to the following URL:
>
> http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/definition.html
I read your essay, but found it strangely unsatisfying. The bulk of the
writing consisted of a collection of ‘definitions’ of the term
“Holocaust”–not particulalry enlightening. You then wrote:
BEGIN
Finally, the door must be left open to consider the role of Jewish and
Zionist leaders. Whether or not they were well-intentioned, actions by
the Judenrat, Jewish kapos, and pro-Nazi Zionists that resulted in
Jewish deaths must be studied and criticized, just as actions by these
groups and others are praised when they resulted in the saving of Jewish
lives.
END
The essential offensiveness of your ‘blame the Jews” message is lost on
you, I fear, so I won’t dwell on it here–Suffice it to say, if the
Third Reich had not attacked, Jews would not have had to respond.
BEGIN
Left undefined, but to be determined by examining the facts within the
framework above, is the “why” of the Holocaust.
A proposed definition
According to the OED, revision is, “The action of revising or looking
over again; esp. critical or careful examination or perusal with a view
to correcting or improving.” Revisionism is defined as, “A term used for
a revised attitude to some previously accepted political situation,
doctrine, or point of view.” A revisionist, then, would be someone who
approaches the Holocaust by looking at the facts, putting them in
context, and arriving at the “why.” An anti-revisionist would be someone
who has fixed ideas about why the Holocaust happened, and then finds
facts to support that conclusion, usually at the expense of context.
Taking into account everything above, I would propose that the term
“Holocaust” be defined as: “The mistreatment of Jewish civilians,
primarily in Europe, at the hands of the combatants during the Second
World War (1939-1945).”
END
Your ‘definition’ is so incomplete as to be incomprehensible, Greg.
Mistreatment? Primarily in Europe? Combatants? Not even a nice try,
Greg. Your long, verbose essay leads up to THIS? Honestly! What a
waste.
Instead of ‘mistreatment’ try: the murder of millions of innocent men,
woman and children who were–or were thought to be–Jewish or members of
other ‘unacceptable’ ethnic, social and political groups.”
Instead of “primarily in Europe” try: “Europe and Western Asia”.
Instead of “combatants” try: “Nazi Third Reich military forces,
collaborators and civilians.”
Which leaves us with:
“The murder of millions of innocent men, woman and children who were–or
were thought to be–Jewish or members of other ‘unacceptable’ ethnic,
social and political groups primarily in Europe and Western Asia at the
hands of the Nazi Third Reich military forces, collaborators and
civilians during the Second World War (1939-1945).”
> —
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Fri Nov 15 06:32:58 PST 1996
Article: 79493 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:21:08 -0500
Organization: Freelance Soccer Mom
Lines: 21
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References: <[email protected]>
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>> # From: [email protected] (Jean-Francois Beaulieu)
> # Recently I posted something on Suchomel and there was a couple of
> # arguments develloped in alt.revisionism.> #
One of the argument is that more than one camera may have been involved.>
# Another one is that the picture could have been taken from outside, through> #
a window. Another one, Annie Halpert, said that Suchomel asked to not reveal
> # his name but accepted to be filmed. Obviously the latest one is a
> # non-sense.
>
> Again, I don’t think any comment is necessary (except to point out that
> Annie Alpert’s argument has been quite distorted).
No kidding! I said nothing of the sort. J-F, I realize your English is
limited, but this time you went too far.
> —
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Tue Nov 19 06:46:40 PST 1996
Article: 79964 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Blaming The Holocaust On David Irving
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 20:40:56 -0500
Organization: IDT
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]_alt.revisionism> <[email protected]_alt.revisionism>
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To: Troy Varange
Troy Varange wrote:
>
> Annie Alpert writing [ 2074] bytes in <[email protected]>
from nexp.crl.com!nntp.crl.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!
news.idt.net!nntp-hub.idt.net!
nntp.farm.idt.net!206.20.179.42 on alt.revisionism said:
>
> > Kay, While the phrase ‘anti-Semitism’ is interpreted differently by
> > different people, I believe David Irving has met the minimum definition
> > of that phrase by his escalating obsession and dislike for the
> > collective group “Jews”. Of course, he, himself, disputes this. I
> > don’t find that surprising since I’ve never heard a definition of
> > ‘anti-Semite” that included the person constructing the definition.
>
> #1) Antisemitism can be defined as intentionally feeling
> desires that potentionally may reduce the power of the Jewish
> collective leadership;
Can be? Well, if you want to play THAT game, “anti-Semitism” “can be”
defined as “a sweet baked good made of flour, butter and sugar.” Can be
so defined, but not accurately. There is a perfectly good definition for
the word–one coined, by the way, by a self-described hater of Hebrews
(well, that’s what they called Jews in England in the 1880’s when the
word was defined.) Not liking Jewish people–for whatever reason (even
believing that they are trying to take over the world) is
anti-Semitism. It’s not even a judgemental term. It just means what it
means.
>
> #2) and when unintentional, failing to make amends for it.
Why do you feel amends have to be made if you stand behind you position?
>
> It has not yet been proven that Irving is an antisemite;
> after all, he could be an agent of Jewish businessmen.
He is totally obsessed with Jews. He thinks they are out to get him.
The ‘agent of Jewish businessmen” theory is totally specious. Irving
would get a good laugh out of that, I’m sure!
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Thu Nov 28 07:03:05 PST 1996
Article: 82378 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ** DISHONESTY OF WILLIS CARTO **
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:56:52 -0500
Organization: IDT
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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To: [email protected]
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Liberty Lobby founder Willis Carto has been hit with a
> multi-million dollar judgment for illegally diverting $7.5
> million from a California non-profit group.
Alex–you really should correct this mailing you’ve been sending out to
many, many newsgroups to indicate that the ‘non-profit’ group is the
Institute for Historical Review–an organization Carto started for the
purpose of spreading his Holocaust denial clap-trap. Also, it’s
interesting that the IHR is now in the hands of Grag Raven and Bradley
Smith who are both Scientologists (taken over by gunpoint in a bloodless
coup, yet!)
I’m curious–what is your connecion with the IHR? Why is the Church of
Scientology interested in Willis Carto? What is the connection between
the COS and Holocaust denial?
snip
>
> FOR COPIES OF THE JUDGE MAINO’S NOVEMBER 13TH LETTER ON THE
> TRIAL AND HIS SUBSEQUENT NOVEMBER 14TH DECISION, SEND ME AN
> E-MAIL ([email protected]) WITH YOUR FAX NUMBER OR ADDRESS.
>
Can you post it?
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
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From [email protected] Sat Nov 30 11:29:00 PST 1996
Article: 82752 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.religion.scientology,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hausherr new potential ally of scientology!
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:44:47 -0500
Organization: IDT
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Troy Varange wrote:
>
> Tilman Hausherr writing [ 1280] bytes in <[email protected]>
from nexp.crl.com!usenet73.supernews.com!usenet65.supernews.com!news.he.net!
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not-for-mail said:
>
> > Ernst Zuendel, the canadian holocaust revisionist, dreams of an alliance
> > of scientology and extremists against the german state.
>
What is the sudden love-affair between Holocaust revisionists and the
Church of Scientology? First it’s Raven and Weber, now it’s Ernst
Zundel. Who’s next? John Travlota? Tom Cruise? I don’t get it.
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
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From [email protected] Sat Nov 30 11:29:01 PST 1996
Article: 82848 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Last Call to Nizkooks: Quit Spamming and Leave
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:54:46 -0500
Organization: IDT
Lines: 29
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william c anderson wrote:
>
> Kurt Stele ([email protected]) wrote:
>
> : This is a last call. You’re not welcome here.
>
> Go play in traffic, Brian. Nobody cares whether you welcome them
> here. That you’re afraid to face the arguments of those who disagree
> with you is a comment on the paucity of your own arguments, but it
> isn’t otherwise significant.
>
> We’re not going anywhere, nazi-boy. Stick it.
>
> Bill
Aww, Brian’s just miffed because the participants of
misc.activisim.militia voted to ban him and his National Alliance
cronies from their moderated newsgroup. The NA was trying to use it as
a recruiting tool but the militia folks weren’t interested in the
anti-Semitic and racist rantings of the NA. They’re much too nice for
that kind of stuff.
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And be sure to check out:
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From [email protected] Sun Dec 1 16:07:01 PST 1996
Article: 83080 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:07:54 -0500
Organization: IDT
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>
> I have seen many references to the book “The Good Old
> Days” recently by staunch Nizkor devotees. Since I happen
> to have this book in my library of comic books, I thought I would begin
> an analysis of the contents therein. Let’s begin with chapter one:
>
> We have a letter from Eastern Territory Commander Johannes
> Blaskowitz, in which he writes a communication dated February 6, 1940.
I have that excellent book, too. It’s pretty silly to try to use it as
a Nazi apologia document, when the book clearly details the observations
of eye-witnesses and perpetrators.
First of all, the document on pp 4-5 is not a letter from Eastern
Territories Commander J. Blaskowitz. It is a collection of his notes in
the form of a diary–and is clearly stated as such in the bibliography.
>
> He details the fact that a rebel and sabotage organization has sprung up
> and that the Security Police are investigating. He accuses the Police of
> killing 10,000 Jews. His comments clearly show that he is outraged at
> what he perceives to be a great crime. The content of his letter makes it
> clear, however, that the culprits he considers responsible are a clique of
> irresponsible men, and he advises their immediate arrest.
Note he also comments that this is a bad thing because it will wake up
the rest of the world to what’s going on in the Eastern Territories AND
because it is making the formerly rabidly anti-Semitic Poles feel pity
for the Jews.
>
> The unfortunate thing about this letter is that no reply is given from the
> military authorities. Without any confirmation of either receipt of the
> letter or substantiation of the grave allegations, this document must be
> considered worthless.
There can be no reply since it was not a letter. It was a dairy entry.
Duh. That means he did not write it for any gratutious purposes–merely
to record for himself what he saw.
—
Nizkor (USA) – An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: https://nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
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From [email protected] Sun Dec 1 16:07:02 PST 1996
Article: 83082 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Good Old Days,2. Who killed the cop?
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:15:01 -0500
Organization: IDT
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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[email protected] wrote:
>
> Here is something from chapter two entitled: “Bloody
> Wednesday in Olkusz/Ilkenau”.
>
> The excerpt begins by inform us that a capital crime had
> occurred on 16 July 1940. A German policeman named
> Ernest Kaddatz was bushwhacked and murdered by assailants
> unknown. The German authorities believed the assailants were
> hiding out in the town of Olkusz.
Blackie, are you making this up as you go along? The book says nothing
of the sort. It captions a photo pp5: “Market square of the Polish
border town of Olkusz, called Ilkenau by the occupation forces. In 1940
some 7,000 Poles and 6,000 Jews were living there. On 16 July 1940 the
German Gendarme Ernest Kaddatz was shot by an unknown assailant. In
reprisal twenty Jews were publically executed.”
No bushwacking. Only one assailant. The rest of the chapter consists
of photgraphs of the execution process with a description of the
torturing of the unfortunate survivors.
>
> On 31 July the town was surrounded by police units. A Jew was
> or Jews were suspected of the murder. Thus, the Jewish inhabitants
> of the town were compelled toassemble in the village square and lie
> face down on the ground for a number of hours while the town and their
> persons were searched. It is alleged that the Jews were beaten with rifle
> butts, but no evidence is offered to sustain that charge.
> A Jew named Tadeusz Lupa is shot while attempting to flee. This must
> have made him appear guilty in the eyes of the investigating authorities.
Well, the fact that he was being tortured at the time might have had
SOMETHING to do with his desire to fles the site of the carnage, don’t
you think?
> The authors of the book tekk us that Tadeusz could not stand the “torture”
> of lying face down on the ground so he fled.
>
> Finally, we are told that the towns population was sent to Auschwitz in 1942,
> with no additional comment. The obvious inference which the authors of the
> book wish to be drawn is that the Jews were murdered there. Yet, they offer
> no proof whatsoever.
Dead bodies are not a sign of mistreatment? HA!
> Photographs are reproduced showing the jews of the town being searched
> and lying on the ground. There is no sign of mistreatment.
>
> Conclusion: The killer was probab;y Tadeusz.
—
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http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad
From [email protected] Wed Nov 13 06:28:36 PST 1996
Article: 79283 of alt.revisionism
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From: Annie Alpert
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Subject: Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for Ehrlich
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:49:09 -0500
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